building a 1200L nature aquarium with Wild Discus & jungle-nature feel

[Wookii]

See, I’m a maintenance phobe, if I can find a way to dodge it, I will. So I’ve never really been comfortable with the coarse-finer-finest approach - to me that just three type of songs to wash. I’d just put the finest first, and have only one sponge to wash! 😅

Also, you’ve missed my point on the trickle filter - DO can be one of the main benefits of a sump.

 

[aeneas]

See, I’m a maintenance phobe, if I can find a way to dodge it, I will. So I’ve never really been comfortable with the coarse-finer-finest approach - to me that just three type of songs to wash. I’d just put the finest first, and have only one sponge to wash! 😅

Also, you’ve missed my point on the trickle filter - DO can be one of the main benefits of a sump.

I love your "maintenance phobe" approach. I am in your camp! 😉

Indeed I did not understand what you meant by the trickle filter / DO... can you pls explain? Is there a link to a thread that has something like that? When I hear "trickle" I think "noise"... I would like to avoid any noise as much as possible... so minimal trickling possible.

Also in terms of aeration... the idea for this tank is heavily planted nature aquarium... so there will be plenty of oxygen generated by the plants. I was thinking of possibly adding some airstones to the sump to switch on during the night when everyone is asleep (aquarium is on a different floor than the bedrooms so it would not be heard during the night), but not sure how that would disrupt the CO2.

 

[aeneas]

Any other comments regarding baffles vs horizontal flow in terms of (a) sump efficiency and (b) noise of water flow and trickle?
I recently bought @George Farmer 's book and loved it... many great tips there regarding the build. But in the Sump section, there was very limited information and I feel there are still so many different DIY approaches where each one has a separate opinion on what works and what doesn't 😉

 

[not called Bob]

I'd have a separate section of the sump set aside as a ro storage, you could run the filter as and when needed to fill and have an auto top up running to add the very slight amounts evaporation will require.

Need there to be enough space above the running water line for power failure back filling to happen and so it fills the sump and not the floor. 3 Chambers has been plenty for me
One has the water entering, middle is for what ever I am. Using, (at mo it's a settlement area and shrimp hangout) and third houses the return pump
The slots are at base on first, then a pour over with extra buffle to stop bubbles getting to pump on the other.

 

[X3NiTH]

Clarisea Filter Rollers for your prefilter

I would be looking at Rolling Mat Filters, the one I have for the marines is the Innovitech X-Filter 1.0 (the smallest one they do, it has a bigger brother). Innovitech also provide different Micron sized filter rolls so you can choose how fine you want to filter.

Using one of these will go a long way at massively reducing/eliminating waste particulate matter from reaching the furthest points of the sump. If you choose to use sponges in section two they won’t be dragging particulate waste through them and so won’t require as much maintenance.

🙂

 

[Wookii]

I would be looking at Rolling Mat Filters, the one I have for the marines is the Innovitech X-Filter 1.0 (the smallest one they do, it has a bigger brother). Innovitech also provide different Micron sized filter rolls so you can choose how fine you want to filter.

Using one of these will go a long way at massively reducing/eliminating waste particulate matter from reaching the furthest points of the sump. If you choose to use sponges in section two they won’t be dragging particulate waste through them and so won’t require as much maintenance.

🙂

Yeah the Innovitech is a another option, the Clarisea I mention is the same sort of thing, I just didn’t know if the Innovitech would be available in @aeneas’s country as it’s a fairly new product:



The Innovitech would be my pick to for the reasons you mention - I like the fact that there are different micron options available for the rollovers.

How have you found living with yours? Is it fairly straight forward and are the sensors fairly reliable?

 

[Wookii]

Indeed I did not understand what you meant by the trickle filter / DO... can you pls explain?

This is a trickle filter (aka wet and dry filter):



The water comes in from the top of the filter media into a ‘drip’ tray, and the water ‘rains’ down onto filter media and trickles over it. It doesn’t have to be configured exactly as in the image, the inlets can pass through an initial prefilter stage, and then over a baffle into the drip tray in the second section.

The benefit of the trickle filter is that the filter media has access to a lot more oxygen from the air than when it is fully submerged, and so biologically is much more efficient, and the hugely increased water surface contact with the air means that more oxygen diffuses into the water.

The increased dissolved oxygen (DO) is of benefit to the whole aquarium, even if it is heavily planted, and especially during start up.

 

[aeneas]

This is a trickle filter (aka wet and dry filter):
The water comes in from the top of the filter media into a ‘drip’ tray, and the water ‘rains’ down onto filter media and trickles over it. It doesn’t have to be configured exactly as in the image, the inlets can pass through an initial prefilter stage, and then over a baffle into the drip tray in the second section.
The benefit of the trickle filter is that the filter media has access to a lot more oxygen from the air than when it is fully submerged, and so biologically is much more efficient, and the hugely increased water surface contact with the air means that more oxygen diffuses into the water.
The increased dissolved oxygen (DO) is of benefit to the whole aquarium, even if it is heavily planted, and especially during start up.

Hmm... two concerns about this though:
1) how does such trickling & aeration affect the CO2?
2) this seems to me there would be much more noise generarted with wet-dry then the horizontal wet-only where there is no possibility for any unwanted noise.
...I've now seen some people having this horizontal sponge-only sump and a very good return pump and indeed it is SILENT... and I mean silent. No noise whatsoever. That is what I'll be aiming for.

The wet-dry you suggest seems a fine idea, but I worry about the two points above. What is your thought on this?

I would be looking at Rolling Mat Filters, the one I have for the marines is the Innovitech X-Filter 1.0 (the smallest one they do, it has a bigger brother). Innovitech also provide different Micron sized filter rolls so you can choose how fine you want to filter.

I love the Inovitech idea... will study it further and think about how to add this to the design... Thanks for pointing this out to me.

 

[X3NiTH]

How have you found living with yours? Is it fairly straight forward and are the sensors fairly reliable?

I haven’t got it up and running yet, I’m on a bit of a go slow getting the tank set up. I did tons of research beforehand and spoke to others about experiences with other brands, and this was the device they were happy with the roller performance (never jamming the motor), it appears to have more beans than others. I’m optimistic that it will perform as I hope.



🙂

 

[X3NiTH]

Btw if you want the Object Model I made of the X-Filter 1.0 to play about with in SketchUp I’d be happy to let you use it, it’s dimensionally correct in volume for spacing fitment to a sump section.

🙂

 

[aeneas]

Btw if you want the Object Model I made of the X-Filter 1.0 to play about with in SketchUp I’d be happy to let you use it, it’s dimensionally correct in volume for spacing fitment to a sump section.

🙂

Would be grateful if you could share your sketchup file to play with.

I've been looking at whatever is available on these roller filters on youtube and limited info on forums... Innovitech solution is still not very clear to me. Quite technical. For example, I don't really get the vortex bypass controller at the bottom etc. I've also seen a few videos where the water in this filter seems to be making lots of turbulence, and consequently, noise.
At lease as to what I saw in the short amount of research, Theiling Rollermat Aqua seems almost a more straightforward option? Also allows for greater flow and seems to collect much more dirt before it rotates so it lasts longer. Have you considered that one in your research?

...And one more thing that worries me about these devices - in principle I find the idea wonderful, but on the other hand this is a certain death for any small fish that may by accident happen to be sucked into the overflow and into the sump. If the first compartment is just an empty compartment before the sponges, then the little fish can remain there a few days and we can eventually notice it and put it back... Any thoughts on this?

Hmm... really love the idea. And prefilter like this would probably reduce maintenance significantly...

 

[X3NiTH]

what I saw in the short amount of research, Theiling Rollermat Aqua seems almost a more straightforward option? Also allows for greater flow and seems to collect much more dirt before it rotates so it lasts longer. Have you considered that one in your research?

Yes, because the X-Filter is clear in design I can visually inspect to see if any Nano Marine Fish have accidentally been flushed over the weir. The vortex generator gap should be enough to let an Eviota through, anything bigger would need rescued, I will try to mitigate this with how I setup the weir overflow whether I use mesh for flush prevention.

PM me your e-mail and I’ll send the file over.

🙂

 

[aeneas]

In parallel to all the sump discussions, I am also starting to consider the lighting options. To make this thread clean and not overwhelm with individual equipment topics, I posted a separate thread in the Lighting section.
Basically, I am considering between

• ADA Solar RGB
• Kessil A360x Tuna Sun
• ONF Flat One+
• Chihiros Vivid 2

Personally, I am kind of between ADA Solar RGB and Kessil A360x but all of these seem to be good options.
Any feedback here or in the dedicated thread in the Lighting section would be much appreciated.

 

[aeneas]

So, the lights have been selected - thanks again for all who helped with their feedback and support! We decided at the end to go with the GHL ecosystem which will as integrated work and as unified control of the tank as possible:

• 4x GHL Mitras LX7004.
• GHL Profilux 4 aquairum computer
• GHL Doser 2.1 for fertilization
• Probes: pH & Temperature. Do Oxygen & Redox make any sense in freshwater aquarium??
• Powerbar - allows Profilux control of each electrical switch for all other connected devices

Any additional thoughts or comments on this part?

Furthermore - the design of the sump is now reaching its "final" stages... we will install Innovitech's X.17 fleece roller filter, which should take care of and prefilter all the gunk and larger particles. The rest of the sump will be a horizontal flow of biomedia only. The return pump will be an "oversized" Red Dragon 3 with 100W power and 12m3/h flow. See scheme below:




Now, the next stage is where I am again complete beginner - coming from 30 years of just low-tech aquariums: CO2!

PLANNING THE CO2 SYSTEM:
Pls help me plan the right way to set-up and add to this infrastructure a good CO2 system:

• what is the best CO2 kit I could get?
• can I control CO2 via the pH probe in the GHL Profilux? For example - adding solenoid valve to the CO2 kit that opens on the pH readout from the GHL pH probe?
• how should I connect the CO2 system - intake and output? Do I connect it to the return pipe directly or can I just make a separate independent circle to send the CO2-enriched water back to the last chamber just before the intake of the pump?
• ...keeping in mind the entire overall design effort, I'd rather avoid additional pumps etc. for the CO2 to keep noise minimal (the Red Dragon is - tested - completely silent despite 12.000m3/h flow)
• any additional measures to limit CO2 loss from the sump?

Also: I've been reading some articles regarding automating CO2 dosing based on pH and it seems people have mixed feelings about that... What are your thoughts? I would like to minimize pH swings to keep the stress to the fish (particularly the discus fish) to a minimum... I understand plants do not need as much CO2 at night, but CO2 is cheap and I'd rather loose CO2 and refill more often than have great pH swings and stress the fish... what are your thoughts around this?

...any sketches of your own that you can share or useful threads you can point me towards would be much appreciated! I've read many threads by now but this still seems highly complicated to me and lots of DIY solutions that are beyond my "engineering" skills 😉

 

[aeneas]

One more item on my "need to figure it out" list is regarding the return pipes. To keep this thread clean, I've asked that question in the dedicated "water flow" thread I found here; any comments there would be much appreciated and I will post the final solution again back in this thread.

 

[Kalum]

With the drain in the return chamber then you'll be draining a good amount of 'clean' water from your auto water change system, would it make more sense to drain 'dirty' water before the return chamber?

Plus I'm guessing co2 will be added to the sump so this would be in the same category of removing some of the Co2 from reaching the tank and possibly cause fluctuations?

 

[aeneas]

With the drain in the return chamber then you'll be draining a good amount of 'clean' water from your auto water change system, would it make more sense to drain 'dirty' water before the return chamber?

Plus I'm guessing co2 will be added to the sump so this would be in the same category of removing some of the Co2 from reaching the tank and possibly cause fluctuations?

The idea behind the automatic water change is continous dripping of the fresh RO water... this gets mixed up with the rest of the water at a speed of 5.000 liters per hour flow through the pump. I intend to drip-in cca 50L per day. Dripping will compensate for any evaporation; when extra fresh water elevates water level in the sump to tip over the "drain pipe" level - it will automatically just flow out. Minimal loss of fresh water... At the same time, since the draining is not automated but fixed to a designated water level in the sump, this also prevents any unwanted flooding... it just goes in the drain.

Regarding CO2, I don't know... I would really need experts here. I've never done it. I am, thus, wondering (a) adding CO2-enriched water return line from a CO2 reactor directly in front of the inflow of the return pump, or, (b) making a bypass on the actual return line itself, so that part of the return water goes via a CO2 reactor and then comes back to the return pipe a bit further up. Any input here very very welcome!

 

[Kalum]

Yeh 100% up with the reason for the drain and planning to do the same myself in a future sump, like you say it has a duel purpose of being a failsafe for flooding and also water changes

What I'm questioning is the position of the drain, I'm certainly not speaking from experience here and more asking the question myself, but I just had in my head that I'd have the fresh water feed after the drain so no fresh water is lost via the drain, the water in your return chamber will constantly be a mix of fresh and old so your 50L might equate to say 40L (just a random number) fresh water turnover after this loss so its probably marginal and not an issue

Your way definitely allows a (potentially better?) failsafe with less chance of the sump drain being blocked where it is and mine would mean I'd be relying on the tanks overflow as the failsafe for flooding

I was thinking of either having an overflow to drain in the tank overflow box or setting up a sump drain similar to yours but right after the 1st prefilter chamber

 

[ian_m]

Drain in sump, whilst good on paper has major "failure issues". If you have a power cut, water from tank, water from the down pipe and water from up tube, drain back into the sump and excess water drains out the overflow. All nice and safe.

When power comes back, you have now lost a significant amount of water, more than likely enough that the sump system will no longer work.

You would be normally fit an overflow in the tank, thus on power failure you will no lose water.

Just make sure the sump is big enough to hold all the excess water upon power failure.

 

[Andrew Butler]

There's plenty of 'Automatic Water Changers' out there, Pacific sun maybe worth you looking at, although I don't know where they're upto now with regards to advancements. I know you used to be able to use their Kore 5th doser as an AWC if you sacrificed 2 channels so would hopefully do away with part of @ian_m concerns as the drain would exist as something an electronic device controlled and not be a direct drain in the sump.

As Ian correctly says you need to calculate the capacity of the sump and water that would drain from the aquarium should there be a power cut, this can make running a minimal rim to water level more of a challenge.

Possibly worth checking some of the marine forums out for some ideas.

I'll comment on your other thread RE: Water Flow.