Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. spraybars!!
No idea troi, found the vid on you tube...
No idea troi, found the vid on you tube...
-
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Barb Island. its all over.
- Thread starter Iain Sutherland
- Start date
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. if its not one thing its another...
Geez, just as i start to get good growth, seem to have conquered the algae and the plant side of things is looking good another issue pops up.
In fact i think its a problem that has been there all along
but would like to run it by you guys.
So i lost a harlequin a few days ago, found an amano having a snack on it and didnt really think too much of it, then yesterday i found another one dead. I figured something must be wrong so tested my water for the first time and came back zero ammonia and nitrites. Then i started to think back, individual incidents i naively thought to be nothing add up to something more sinister. Goes a little like this...
5 CRS added - started to see them less and less and now never.
2 of 5 chocolates jumped out.
Never manage to get a full count of CPD's any more.
Only really see one chocolate at a time and today noticed one of the remaining 3 doesnt look happy at all.
Now 2 harlequins dead.
So having put all this together im a little embarrassed to say i didnt get more concerned earlier. It seems that all of the losses have come about since i started to try and condition my water for the chocolates with RO.
No fish are ever at the surface and look to struggle from CO2/O2 or visable signs of disease so dont think that is the issue.
My current thinking of a possible cause is that maybe im havent changed the filter cartridges in the RO unit often enough and not all the chlorine is being removed???? while i still use prime at WC i dont for the top up unit which goes through around 30ltrs a week.
Do you think this is likely??? I make about 300ltrs a week and have been using the unit for 7 weeks, as i dont have a TDS pen yet i take some to Cambridge Coral Tech every few weeks and 2 weeks ago was at 15TDS. Does chlorine show up in TDS measurements?
Ultimately i never felt 100% comfortable trying to change my water conditions and at the moment i think my best option, as sad as it is, is listen to people with more experience and the old adage of matching fish to the water rather than trying to mess with the water conditions.. so the remaining chocolates might have have to go if i go back to just tap
I would love some ideas of other possible causes as i feel i have reasonable evidence to discount the obvious but appreciate my experience in reality is pathetic compared to a lot of you guys.
I feel really bad as a fish keeper that i was focusing so much on the plants, co2, algae etc that i didnt pay enough attention to what was going on with my fauna with fatal consequences
Any advise very gratefully received.
Geez, just as i start to get good growth, seem to have conquered the algae and the plant side of things is looking good another issue pops up.
In fact i think its a problem that has been there all along
but would like to run it by you guys.So i lost a harlequin a few days ago, found an amano having a snack on it and didnt really think too much of it, then yesterday i found another one dead. I figured something must be wrong so tested my water for the first time and came back zero ammonia and nitrites. Then i started to think back, individual incidents i naively thought to be nothing add up to something more sinister. Goes a little like this...
5 CRS added - started to see them less and less and now never.
2 of 5 chocolates jumped out.
Never manage to get a full count of CPD's any more.
Only really see one chocolate at a time and today noticed one of the remaining 3 doesnt look happy at all.
Now 2 harlequins dead.
So having put all this together im a little embarrassed to say i didnt get more concerned earlier. It seems that all of the losses have come about since i started to try and condition my water for the chocolates with RO.
No fish are ever at the surface and look to struggle from CO2/O2 or visable signs of disease so dont think that is the issue.
My current thinking of a possible cause is that maybe im havent changed the filter cartridges in the RO unit often enough and not all the chlorine is being removed???? while i still use prime at WC i dont for the top up unit which goes through around 30ltrs a week.
Do you think this is likely??? I make about 300ltrs a week and have been using the unit for 7 weeks, as i dont have a TDS pen yet i take some to Cambridge Coral Tech every few weeks and 2 weeks ago was at 15TDS. Does chlorine show up in TDS measurements?
Ultimately i never felt 100% comfortable trying to change my water conditions and at the moment i think my best option, as sad as it is, is listen to people with more experience and the old adage of matching fish to the water rather than trying to mess with the water conditions.. so the remaining chocolates might have have to go if i go back to just tap
I would love some ideas of other possible causes as i feel i have reasonable evidence to discount the obvious but appreciate my experience in reality is pathetic compared to a lot of you guys.
I feel really bad as a fish keeper that i was focusing so much on the plants, co2, algae etc that i didnt pay enough attention to what was going on with my fauna with fatal consequences
Any advise very gratefully received.
A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Iain, did you mean top up is 30lt per week or per day ? At 30lt per week I would say its not a chlorine issue given the volume of your overall tank. I have read many instances where people do 10% water changes or greater, without any effect. Just what I have read but no doubt there is someone who knows more so don't take this response as gospel.
Iain, did you mean top up is 30lt per week or per day ? At 30lt per week I would say its not a chlorine issue given the volume of your overall tank. I have read many instances where people do 10% water changes or greater, without any effect. Just what I have read but no doubt there is someone who knows more so don't take this response as gospel.
Nathaniel Whiteside
Member
90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
15 TDS thats ultra soft. Crystal Reds like the TDS between 100-180 ish.
If the water is too soft it will cause molting issues
Whats your GH & KH?
Couldnt the likely cause be unstable Ph swings?
Regards
15 TDS thats ultra soft. Crystal Reds like the TDS between 100-180 ish.
If the water is too soft it will cause molting issues
Whats your GH & KH?
Couldnt the likely cause be unstable Ph swings?
Regards
A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Thats more likely with such low tds I would have thought Nathaniel. Good call.
I dont do RO water, but as a question to benefit Iain and others, when doing RO water, are you not supposed to add some kind of buffer back in ? I know I had to with marines, but that was because the water had to be a pretty high pH (around the 8.2/8.4 mark was what I aimed for). Surely to SOME extend that is still necessary ?
Whitey89 said:
Thats more likely with such low tds I would have thought Nathaniel. Good call.
I dont do RO water, but as a question to benefit Iain and others, when doing RO water, are you not supposed to add some kind of buffer back in ? I know I had to with marines, but that was because the water had to be a pretty high pH (around the 8.2/8.4 mark was what I aimed for). Surely to SOME extend that is still necessary ?
Nathaniel Whiteside
Member
90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Cant imagine that there would be many? Given that a dissolved mineral content would be present in nearly every natural lake, river or stream.
Only thing I can think of is water running through pure volcanic rock? But surely this would be inhabitable due to nasties such as sulphur?
Check it out darren, could be interesting
darren636 said:
Cant imagine that there would be many? Given that a dissolved mineral content would be present in nearly every natural lake, river or stream.
Only thing I can think of is water running through pure volcanic rock? But surely this would be inhabitable due to nasties such as sulphur?
Check it out darren, could be interesting
Nathaniel Whiteside
Member
90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Take a look here;
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleOsmosis.htm
Might give a little insight into osmoregulation.
Basically what darren said is right, the fish are suffering due to low TDS content of water. The osmotic pressure is too high for the fish as the water is too soft.
"Angelfish and discus are examples of fish that have very strong and efficient osmoregulatory systems. They do well naturally in their native environment where the osmotic pressure is great due to the extremely soft water of the Amazon river basin. However, when under stress, these systems can be impaired. This is why it is advised to add some salt to the water of fish under stress. The salt reduces the osmotic pressure. The stress could come from transportation, diseases, trauma or a number of other problems. Keep in mind that salt is only good for short term success. The stress must be removed to prevent further problems. "
"A sudden change in osmotic pressure can put great stress on the osmoregulatory system of a fish. This is of great concern when shipping fish to locations with water different from what they're adapted to. The fish arrives under great stress and is not able to regulate any osmotic pressure differences easily. This is one reason why acclimation should be slow. It also explains why treating diseased fish must be done carefully. When putting them in a salt bath, the concentration of salt should be increased gradually."
I would start cutting in some pure tap water mate, maybe 5-10% a day till you get up to a decent TDS level. Maybe about 120-150?
Regards
Take a look here;
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleOsmosis.htm
Might give a little insight into osmoregulation.
Basically what darren said is right, the fish are suffering due to low TDS content of water. The osmotic pressure is too high for the fish as the water is too soft.
"Angelfish and discus are examples of fish that have very strong and efficient osmoregulatory systems. They do well naturally in their native environment where the osmotic pressure is great due to the extremely soft water of the Amazon river basin. However, when under stress, these systems can be impaired. This is why it is advised to add some salt to the water of fish under stress. The salt reduces the osmotic pressure. The stress could come from transportation, diseases, trauma or a number of other problems. Keep in mind that salt is only good for short term success. The stress must be removed to prevent further problems. "
"A sudden change in osmotic pressure can put great stress on the osmoregulatory system of a fish. This is of great concern when shipping fish to locations with water different from what they're adapted to. The fish arrives under great stress and is not able to regulate any osmotic pressure differences easily. This is one reason why acclimation should be slow. It also explains why treating diseased fish must be done carefully. When putting them in a salt bath, the concentration of salt should be increased gradually."
I would start cutting in some pure tap water mate, maybe 5-10% a day till you get up to a decent TDS level. Maybe about 120-150?
Regards
Nathaniel Whiteside
Member
90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Take a look here;
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleOsmosis.htm
Might give a little insight into osmoregulation.
Basically what darren said is right, the fish are suffering due to low TDS content of water. The osmotic pressure is too high for the fish as the water is too soft.
"Angelfish and discus are examples of fish that have very strong and efficient osmoregulatory systems. They do well naturally in their native environment where the osmotic pressure is great due to the extremely soft water of the Amazon river basin. However, when under stress, these systems can be impaired. This is why it is advised to add some salt to the water of fish under stress. The salt reduces the osmotic pressure. The stress could come from transportation, diseases, trauma or a number of other problems. Keep in mind that salt is only good for short term success. The stress must be removed to prevent further problems. "
"A sudden change in osmotic pressure can put great stress on the osmoregulatory system of a fish. This is of great concern when shipping fish to locations with water different from what they're adapted to. The fish arrives under great stress and is not able to regulate any osmotic pressure differences easily. This is one reason why acclimation should be slow. It also explains why treating diseased fish must be done carefully. When putting them in a salt bath, the concentration of salt should be increased gradually."
I would start cutting in some pure tap water mate, maybe 5-10% a day till you get up to a decent TDS level. Maybe about 120-150?
Regards
Take a look here;
http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleOsmosis.htm
Might give a little insight into osmoregulation.
Basically what darren said is right, the fish are suffering due to low TDS content of water. The osmotic pressure is too high for the fish as the water is too soft.
"Angelfish and discus are examples of fish that have very strong and efficient osmoregulatory systems. They do well naturally in their native environment where the osmotic pressure is great due to the extremely soft water of the Amazon river basin. However, when under stress, these systems can be impaired. This is why it is advised to add some salt to the water of fish under stress. The salt reduces the osmotic pressure. The stress could come from transportation, diseases, trauma or a number of other problems. Keep in mind that salt is only good for short term success. The stress must be removed to prevent further problems. "
"A sudden change in osmotic pressure can put great stress on the osmoregulatory system of a fish. This is of great concern when shipping fish to locations with water different from what they're adapted to. The fish arrives under great stress and is not able to regulate any osmotic pressure differences easily. This is one reason why acclimation should be slow. It also explains why treating diseased fish must be done carefully. When putting them in a salt bath, the concentration of salt should be increased gradually."
I would start cutting in some pure tap water mate, maybe 5-10% a day till you get up to a decent TDS level. Maybe about 120-150?
Regards
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Hi all,
The you need to "add salt" for soft water fish is also wrong and is based upon a failure of understanding of osmotic regulation, the addition of totally unnatural ions is likely to cause, rather than, alleviate stress. Have a look a this one if you want some actual figures, it also highlights the importance of natural humic substances ("black water") <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12695983>
For various reasons you can ignore pH swings, these are inevitable in water with low dKH, and don't effect the fish. Have a look here for a bit more of an explanation. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20886&p=213484&hilit=buffering#p213484>. Very soft water is more difficult to manage than highly carbonate buffered water, but it isn't impossible. One thing is that biological filtration is reduced, so you need to keep on top of stocking rates and water changes.
Personally I would add some tannins to the water with Indian Almond leaves or Alder cones, and then as was suggested add a bit more hard tap water to buffer the water up (I would only go to about 50ppm TDS).
cheers Darrel
Hi all,
Actually a lot of the water from the tropical rain-forest areas is lower than this in TDS. The reason for this is that the rain-fall is very high, and it washes any soluble salts out of the upper layers of the soil leaving only insoluble aluminium and iron compounds behind. These are the infertile lateritic soils you find through-out the tropics, any soluble compounds in the water tend to be humic acids and tannins from fallen leaves, these add H+ ions and sequester any other cations and depress the pH. Have a look a this travelogue <http://apisto.sites.no/page.aspx?pageid=120> for some water quality parameters (all the site is well worth a look as well).
The you need to "add salt" for soft water fish is also wrong and is based upon a failure of understanding of osmotic regulation, the addition of totally unnatural ions is likely to cause, rather than, alleviate stress. Have a look a this one if you want some actual figures, it also highlights the importance of natural humic substances ("black water") <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12695983>
For various reasons you can ignore pH swings, these are inevitable in water with low dKH, and don't effect the fish. Have a look here for a bit more of an explanation. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20886&p=213484&hilit=buffering#p213484>. Very soft water is more difficult to manage than highly carbonate buffered water, but it isn't impossible. One thing is that biological filtration is reduced, so you need to keep on top of stocking rates and water changes.
Personally I would add some tannins to the water with Indian Almond leaves or Alder cones, and then as was suggested add a bit more hard tap water to buffer the water up (I would only go to about 50ppm TDS).
cheers Darrel
Nathaniel Whiteside
Member
90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Yes darrel, that is a great deal of knowledge. I will try read up on all that myself. Thanks for info.
Yes darrel, that is a great deal of knowledge. I will try read up on all that myself. Thanks for info.
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
cheers chris, now you mention it think i might have read something similar, somewhere..?
I need to order a new GH/KH test kit as the one i had gave 2 different reading from the same water but it was old.
Yes mate, you need to remineralize the water either with additives or cutting it with tap.
Thanks Darrel, very informative. I do cut the RO 60-40 with cambridge tap water which is very hard. I did have a bunch of almond leaves on a clip in there when i added the CRS, i'll put some more in today as i believe they have anti bacterial qualities also which might help cover some bases.
I guess the RO might not be the issue as i still use it on my marine for top up and mixing salt water without effect.
So if i rule out the RO as a cause for now what else should i consider?
No sign of disease
No visible co2/o2 stress
WC every 5/6 days ish
Weekly mechanical and monthly biological filter maintenance.
0 reading on tests, for what they are worth.
The only other change i have made was to up the liquid carbon i was adding from 15ml to 20ml a day, dropped it back to 15ml when i found the first harlequin.
I have also raised the spray bars slightly to get a little more agitation which seems to have worked well as DC was blue this morning for the first time ever.
Thanks again folks
PS, has anyone ever kept Puntius rhomboocellatus - aka snakeskin barbs?? Wondering if they are relatively 'shrimp safe'
Antipofish said:
cheers chris, now you mention it think i might have read something similar, somewhere..?
Whitey89 said:
I need to order a new GH/KH test kit as the one i had gave 2 different reading from the same water but it was old.
Antipofish said:
Yes mate, you need to remineralize the water either with additives or cutting it with tap.
dw1305 said:
Thanks Darrel, very informative. I do cut the RO 60-40 with cambridge tap water which is very hard. I did have a bunch of almond leaves on a clip in there when i added the CRS, i'll put some more in today as i believe they have anti bacterial qualities also which might help cover some bases.
I guess the RO might not be the issue as i still use it on my marine for top up and mixing salt water without effect.
So if i rule out the RO as a cause for now what else should i consider?
No sign of disease
No visible co2/o2 stress
WC every 5/6 days ish
Weekly mechanical and monthly biological filter maintenance.
0 reading on tests, for what they are worth.
The only other change i have made was to up the liquid carbon i was adding from 15ml to 20ml a day, dropped it back to 15ml when i found the first harlequin.
I have also raised the spray bars slightly to get a little more agitation which seems to have worked well as DC was blue this morning for the first time ever.
Thanks again folks
PS, has anyone ever kept Puntius rhomboocellatus - aka snakeskin barbs?? Wondering if they are relatively 'shrimp safe'
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. a change of fortune??
well im chuffed to bits, while i am still dont know why ive lost the harlequins recently i finally found my 3rd chocolate gourami and it is mouth brooding!! 
desperately tried to get a picture but that is simply impossible.
seems that unless i have a breeder tank then its unlikely to see any fry Maybe it is time to get rid of the nano marine and build the 75cm opti white ive been think about for a while.
This hobby has such highs and lows.
well im chuffed to bits, while i am still dont know why ive lost the harlequins recently i finally found my 3rd chocolate gourami and it is mouth brooding!!
desperately tried to get a picture but that is simply impossible.
seems that unless i have a breeder tank then its unlikely to see any fry
Maybe it is time to get rid of the nano marine and build the 75cm opti white ive been think about for a while.This hobby has such highs and lows.
A
Antipofish
Guest
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Congrats on the choco Iain thats fantastic news If you have success raising them, and there are enough, I would be happy to buy some from you when they are big enough, though thats a long way off.
Puntius Rhomboocelatus are beautiful fish. I have no idea how shrimpsafe they are. I do hear they are a little delicate but doubt any more so than chocolate gouramies. They appreciate lots of cover and a well established aquarium
Congrats on the choco Iain thats fantastic news
If you have success raising them, and there are enough, I would be happy to buy some from you when they are big enough, though thats a long way off.Puntius Rhomboocelatus are beautiful fish. I have no idea how shrimpsafe they are. I do hear they are a little delicate but doubt any more so than chocolate gouramies. They appreciate lots of cover and a well established aquarium
faizal
Member
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
Hi Iain,...I am sorry to hear about your harlequins mate. Don't know really why these things happen. I had a similar experience before too when I was just having fishes in my old tank (without plants) NH4 and nitrates were next to nil . The tank was clean & kept up my routine maintanence yet had a string of harlequin deaths & fishes jumping out of my aquarium. Then all of a sudden things sort of stabled off & there were no further deaths.
Congratulations on the future arrivals though
Hi Iain,...I am sorry to hear about your harlequins mate. Don't know really why these things happen. I had a similar experience before too when I was just having fishes in my old tank (without plants) NH4 and nitrates were next to nil . The tank was clean & kept up my routine maintanence yet had a string of harlequin deaths & fishes jumping out of my aquarium. Then all of a sudden things sort of stabled off & there were no further deaths.
Congratulations on the future arrivals though
tim
Member
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. New problem.. fish deaths
shame about unexplained deaths mate big thumbs up on the chocco though a small plus though your journal has loads of info on using ro a switch ive contemplated but probably wont make journals a good read mate
shame about unexplained deaths mate big thumbs up on the chocco though
a small plus though your journal has loads of info on using ro a switch ive contemplated but probably wont make journals a good read mate
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. update
hey all, i think the deaths have stopped now, i still really dont know what was going on, i did lose 1 more harlequin which was strange as at first i thought i saw a dead one but it was swimming upside down under the crypts eagerly pursued by males then in the morning did find a dead one? Also seems the choco has either spit the babies out or has eaten them... not seen any fry which i half expected.
I have also raised the light a little more as while i seem to be winning the fight with bba it lingers a bit but less each day.
Really tried to be regimented with dosing and maintenance, clean the tank about every 5 days or so, standard EI, 15ml aqua carbon a day applied directly to any BBA when seen.
So im quite chuffed it is going the right way now, my stocking is very light at the moment following the jumpers and deaths so have 15 Vietnamese minnow arriving this week for a further week settling at MA to replace the cardinals then 10 more chocolates in a couple of weeks with 4 week settle.
i now see a bit of a scaping error with this tank as it really looks flat as FTS, always learning...
got the fissedens attached.
re edited old pic just because chocolates rock!
hey all, i think the deaths have stopped now, i still really dont know what was going on, i did lose 1 more harlequin which was strange as at first i thought i saw a dead one but it was swimming upside down under the crypts eagerly pursued by males then in the morning did find a dead one? Also seems the choco has either spit the babies out or has eaten them... not seen any fry which i half expected.
I have also raised the light a little more as while i seem to be winning the fight with bba it lingers a bit but less each day.
Really tried to be regimented with dosing and maintenance, clean the tank about every 5 days or so, standard EI, 15ml aqua carbon a day applied directly to any BBA when seen.
So im quite chuffed it is going the right way now, my stocking is very light at the moment following the jumpers and deaths so have 15 Vietnamese minnow arriving this week for a further week settling at MA to replace the cardinals then 10 more chocolates in a couple of weeks with 4 week settle.
i now see a bit of a scaping error with this tank as it really looks flat as FTS, always learning...
got the fissedens attached.
re edited old pic just because chocolates rock!
Re: 90x75x45 optiwhite. update.
Hi Iain,
sorry about the unexplained fish losses mate, hopefully there finished now and ill look forward to the new additions.
Really pleased your winning the algae battle with your hard work and persistence
The pipework you made is really unintrusive and you must be well pleased with that
As for it looking flat on the FTS, i think it looks awesome, but i can see why your being a little critical. I think this would be negated if you trimmed the central rear stems into a dome shape above the ferns. This would give an island shape, but i do love the look and the layers of plants you have created. The ferns and crypts have filled in really naturally and the fissidens and mosses are looking great on the wood. As the bba in the foreground is reducing the tenellus are really filling in and thats looking good too. The first photo really gives a sense of the depth of this tank and you have done really well to battle the issues you have faced.
Noticing more little touches i like about this now such as the rock in the left foreground which is being softened by the carpet and the illusion of depth (not that it needs it) created by the different sized left and right branches reaching to the substrate.
Ill take inspiration and knowledge from this island scape which will stand me in good stead if i ever plan one myself .
Great tank.
Cheerio,
Ady.
Hi Iain,
sorry about the unexplained fish losses mate, hopefully there finished now and ill look forward to the new additions.
Really pleased your winning the algae battle with your hard work and persistence
The pipework you made is really unintrusive and you must be well pleased with that
As for it looking flat on the FTS, i think it looks awesome, but i can see why your being a little critical. I think this would be negated if you trimmed the central rear stems into a dome shape above the ferns. This would give an island shape, but i do love the look and the layers of plants you have created. The ferns and crypts have filled in really naturally and the fissidens and mosses are looking great on the wood. As the bba in the foreground is reducing the tenellus are really filling in and thats looking good too. The first photo really gives a sense of the depth of this tank and you have done really well to battle the issues you have faced.
Noticing more little touches i like about this now such as the rock in the left foreground which is being softened by the carpet and the illusion of depth (not that it needs it) created by the different sized left and right branches reaching to the substrate.
Ill take inspiration and knowledge from this island scape which will stand me in good stead if i ever plan one myself
.Great tank.
Cheerio,
Ady.
