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Are my Shy Green Neon Tetras - causing embers to hide?

K

keef321

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2021
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Location
Doncaster
Hi,
In my 60P co2 injected planted tank I have always had ember tetras, and they have always been confident swimming around all of the tank, and pretty much taking a territory. A month ago, I added 6 green neon tetras to the 11 ember tetras. Since I added the green neon, you would think that no fish exist in the tank, as they constantly hide. In the morning, they are all at the front waiting for food (I only feed once a day), but then they all just hide.

I was wondering if my ember tetras now hide, as I have added some shy Green neon tetras (I have never had these before), or if there is some other reason? I cannot see any signs of illness / disease.

My water parameters are 1/3 tap, 2/3 RODI, nitrate <5, PH 7.1 before gas 6.2 after gas, KH 2.7, GH 5, TDS (0.5) 134-145. 50% water change every week, 50% level EI dosing, lights on 6 hrs.

I spoke to the shop I got the green neon tetras from, and......well.......he told me my KH was seriously low and I was going to be harming all my livestock. I informed him that Tetras are softwater species, and are used to low KH & GH, but he said that they are all tank bred now, and therfore cannot tolerate a low KH. I didnt argue with him, but my understanding is my water conditions should be fine for Tetras, but if someone with more experience than me, can inform me otherwise, please do inform 🙂.

Photo below.

IMG_7155.jpeg


Thanks,
Keith
 
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Hi all,
keef321 said:
I spoke to the shop I got the green neon tetras from, and......well.......he told me my KH was seriously low and I was going to be harming all my livestock. I informed him that Tetras are softwater species, and are used to low KH & GH, but he said that they are all tank bred now, and therfore cannot tolerate a low KH. I didnt argue with him, but my understanding is my water conditions should be fine for Tetras, but if someone with more experience than me, can inform me otherwise
Click to expand...
You are right and he is wrong, and they definitely aren't tank bred and even if they were? It wouldn't make any difference.

If you think it will make any difference? You could point him at TomC 's Apistogramma site, it has water data - <"Welcome to Tom's Homepage">.
keef321 said:
A month ago, I added 6 green neon tetras to the 11 ember tetras. Since I added the green neon, you would think that no fish exist in the tank, as they constantly hide.
Click to expand...
Strangely it might because they are more confident and now happy to explore the tank on their own, conversely it maybe because the Green Neons are bullying them. ...........

cheers Darrel
 
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dw1305 said:
You are right and he is wrong, and they definitely aren't tank bred and even if they were? It wouldn't make any difference.
Click to expand...
Thank you for this clarifying this.
dw1305 said:
Strangely it might because they are more confident and now happy to explore the tank on their own, conversely it maybe because the Green Neons are bullying them. ...........
Click to expand...
Ah I didn’t think about the green neons possibly bullying them. All the fish including the neons are hidding, but I guess the neons could be keeping them all hiding.

Would be interested in knowing how other people have dealt with this?
 
Firstly, what a beautiful aquarium. That greenery is something to die for. Very lush!

Well, I tend to stay out of fish politics! Mainly because I find there is no rhyme or reason for it. In my aquarium, I have Sun Platy's, Salfin Mollys, Green Rasboras, Cardinal Tetras and Phantom Tetras - a real mix of community fish. Here are my random observations.
  • Platys have always been really, really squably. I built structures to ensure line-of-sight was hard. But no, they literally go out of their way to find each other and squabble.
  • My cardinal tetras have always been a hiding bunch, even when they were in the aquarium on their own for three months. There are now four times the fish, and they act exactly the same as they were a year ago.
  • No species seems to take notice of any other species. If they squabble, it's within the same species. Other people have found quite different, with inter-species interest and sometimes aggression.
  • Adding and removing fish has done little to change the behaviour of existing or new fish.
  • Feeding time they all come out, there is no aggression during feeding and everyone is happy. After food is gone, they resume their position. Others experience some fighting.
So, go figure?!
 
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Bradders said:
Firstly, what a beautiful aquarium. That greenery is something to die for. Very lush!

Well, I tend to stay out of fish politics! Mainly because I find there is no rhyme or reason for it. In my aquarium, I have Sun Platy's, Salfin Mollys, Green Rasboras, Cardinal Tetras and Phantom Tetras - a real mix of community fish. Here are my random observations.
  • Platys have always been really, really squably. I built structures to ensure line-of-sight was hard. But no, they literally go out of their way to find each other and squabble.
  • My cardinal tetras have always been a hiding bunch, even when they were in the aquarium on their own for three months. There are now four times the fish, and they act exactly the same as they were a year ago.
  • No species seems to take notice of any other species. If they squabble, it's within the same species. Other people have found quite different, with inter-species interest and sometimes aggression.
  • Adding and removing fish has done little to change the behaviour of existing or new fish.
  • Feeding time they all come out, there is no aggression during feeding and everyone is happy. After food is gone, they resume their position. Others experience some fighting.
So, go figure?!
Click to expand...
Sounds like things can be random & different experiences in different tanks. Thanks for sharing
 
Did you make any other changes? I find altering the flow has an impact on whether my embers are out of hiding more. Could be plant growth effecting it even if you havent altered the physical set up.
 
tam said:
Did you make any other changes? I find altering the flow has an impact on whether my embers are out of hiding more. Could be plant growth effecting it even if you havent altered the physical set up.
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I’ve not made any changes to the flow or scape, but thanks for the suggestion. As it is high light, it often gets denser growth, followed by trims on a regular basis. It’s been trimmed last week, should it’s less dense and that has not made any difference.

The behaviour to the embers going shy, and all fish hiding, happened within a day of the Green neons being added. This makes me think that it could be it is related to the introduction of the green neons that has upset things as such like @dw1305 stated.
 
With a lovely mature heavily planted tank like that I’d try adding more fish to see if a bigger school makes them less shy - up 12 of either or 6 each and see if that improves things. And/or maybe add another type of fish with a different behaviour, sometimes the tetras seem to need to see something else chilling before they decide things are safe. A lovely pair of apistos, or some habrosus cories or something that just moves a big differently.

I have a lowtech tank that size and approx plant density - with 20 green neon tetras, 6 celestial pearl danios and 10 rosy loaches (and a few other bigger things too... 3 dicrossus, a small male apisto and a microctenopoma ansorgii 😳) and the tiny fish thrive in it like I've never seen in my other tanks, they're always out and active, healthy, breeding (and then eating the eggs immediately). The large fish are all oeaceful, and the small fish seem to love a higher density of mixed lil fish. I have tried much less fish density many times and it's not gone nearly as well as this.

I bought the larger groups originally, cynically assuming that quite a few would die after keeping a few slightly dodgy batches of fish that disappeared one by one, but but then they decided to do great. The microctenopoma was a baby which emerged after its pair of parents jumped out, and the dicrossus were inherited from @Courtneybst . The one other extra I've found makes a big difference is a 2-inch+ carpet of dried leaf litter in the bottom which I regularly top up with a new handful, and siphon out the most degraded stuff.
 
Need lots of greens for them to be out , I think greens if you want to see them need to be in iwagumi i have my ambers in iwagumi and greens in NA style aquascap, but I cannot catch mine to swap so I habe given up, One day!!! In my case I think my 2 year old is constantly harassing them and as soon as she goes to bed they come out lol but if I move from the sofa they dart for cover again.
 
Cichlid keepers often use tetras as dither fish in the upper layers to make the Apistos or whatever feel more confident and outgoing. I wonder if this is a two way relationship and also better for tetras if there is a larger species (but not large enough to eat them) in the same tank. Like the tetras might feel more confident because if a predator comes into the territory they think it will go after the bigger fish first.

Also, regarding any potential bullying, I wonder if green neons are better behaved when kept with a larger fish (or fishes), which would, by sheer size, dissuade them of the view that they can be the bosses of the territory?
 
shangman said:
With a lovely mature heavily planted tank like that I’d try adding more fish to see if a bigger school makes them less shy - up 12 of either or 6 each and see if that improves things. And/or maybe add another type of fish with a different behaviour, sometimes the tetras seem to need to see something else chilling before they decide things are safe. A lovely pair of apistos, or some habrosus cories or something that just moves a big differently.

I have a lowtech tank that size and approx plant density - with 20 green neon tetras, 6 celestial pearl danios and 10 rosy loaches (and a few other bigger things too... 3 dicrossus, a small male apisto and a microctenopoma ansorgii 😳) and the tiny fish thrive in it like I've never seen in my other tanks, they're always out and active, healthy, breeding (and then eating the eggs immediately). The large fish are all oeaceful, and the small fish seem to love a higher density of mixed lil fish. I have tried much less fish density many times and it's not gone nearly as well as this.

I bought the larger groups originally, cynically assuming that quite a few would die after keeping a few slightly dodgy batches of fish that disappeared one by one, but but then they decided to do great. The microctenopoma was a baby which emerged after its pair of parents jumped out, and the dicrossus were inherited from @Courtneybst . The one other extra I've found makes a big difference is a 2-inch+ carpet of dried leaf litter in the bottom which I regularly top up with a new handful, and siphon out the most degraded stuff.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your suggestions.
might give that a go, I could add another 6 green neons, brining my number to 12 green and 11 ember to see if that improves things. My other option would be to add some ottos as always fancied trying them out.

Yes Apisto seem nice, but always think they will have a feast on my cherry shrimp!!
 
keef321 said:
I spoke to the shop I got the green neon tetras from, and......well.......he told me my KH was seriously low and I was going to be harming all my livestock.
Click to expand...

What a stupid thing for them to say - the lack of knowledge in some LFS's is truly astounding sometimes! Your water is fine - zero KH would also be absolutely fine, mine always is.

Tetras are commonly very lazy fish, depending on species. It is common behaviour for them to just hang motionless in the tank for a large chunk of the day until they think food might be in the offing, then they'll spring into action. My Embers were always like that. It's also completely natural for them to a) want to stay out of brightly lit areas (who wants to be under a spot-light for predators), b) areas with the lowest flow (= minimum energy expenditure). Add into that your Neon shoal is too small, so they'll be nervous and hiding, and the Embers will be thinking, 'well it's safer if we just hide with those guys - they look nervous, there must be some danger about'!

If you want your fish to be more active, there are some things you can do:

  1. As @shangman has pointed out above, your shoal of Neons is far too small - the larger the shoal, the more confident they will become. Also both species are naturally fairly shy and reserved, so adding in some bolder, more confident 'dither' fish could also help.
  2. Reverse the flow around your tank, as @tam was eluding to, tetras often prefer the slower flow areas, so you need to create that at the front of the tank - put the filter outlet and inlet at the rear corner of the tank - more flow at the rear and less at the front will encourage the fish into the lower flow area for your viewing pleasure.
  3. Consider getting rid of both the high light and the CO2. Very few, if any of the plants you have in the tank require either. Lower light (like half or less) will encourage more exploration from the fish. You could also encourage this further with some floating plants or emersed plants. In my experience lower or zero CO2 levels results in greater activity from fish. I'm not sure why, maybe a respiratory system response, who knows? - but I've seen it enough times to be sure. (As a side benefit, lower light and no CO2 will reduce your costs, and massively reduce the maintenance and trimming you need to do).
  4. Try some live food (assuming you don't already) - something like daphnia that can be gown easily in outdoor tubs at this time of year are ideal. Not only will it bring your fish into peak health and condition, it will encourage them to hunt about in the foliage for the daphnia (particularly if you turn the filter off and feed over a large area) over an extended period of time, and build that in as a more habitual activity rather than just waiting to be spoon fed.

Scaperinc said:
I think greens if you want to see them need to be in iwagumi
Click to expand...

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think an iwagumi is particularly suitable for any type fish at all.

keef321 said:
My other option would be to add some ottos as always fancied trying them out.
Click to expand...

I love Oto's but you'll see them even less than the other fish (they are largely nocturnal), and they won't do anything to encourage activity in the other fish, if that is the aim.

I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions for suitable dither fish - more unusually I've found Cories can sometimes fulfil that role depending on species, and might be suitable for you as you don't appear to have any bottom feeders currently (assuming your gravel is rounded and not sharp). 8-10 Julii cories for example will regularly patrol the tank floor looking for food, and I often see other fish following mine around hoping the Cories find something for them.
 
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keef321 said:
I spoke to the shop I got the green neon tetras from, and......well.......he told me my KH was seriously low and I was going to be harming all my livestock. I informed him that Tetras are softwater species, and are used to low KH & GH, but he said that they are all tank bred now, and therfore cannot tolerate a low KH.
Click to expand...
Bloody hell…..

As mentioned already, your green neons will be wild caught. Even if they wasn’t why would they not prefer water that mimics their natural habitat? Millions of years of evolution to a specific environment isn’t wiped out by a few generations of captive breeding.

I think you just need to up the numbers of the green neons. I think the nervousness of the green neons has rubbed off on your embers as they now perceive that there is a threat. Another idea would be to add a bold species as dither which will reassure the green neons and the embers that the tank is safe. Something like black neon would be a Safe bet as a species that is fearless.

Cheers
 
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Hi all,
Conort2 said:
As mentioned already, your green neons will be wild caught. Even if they wasn’t why would they not prefer water that mimics their natural habitat? Millions of years of evolution to specific environment isn’t wiped out buy a few generations of captive breeding.
Click to expand...
Conort2 said:
Bloody hell…..
Click to expand...
"Bloody hell" indeed. The amount of poor advice, offered by people <"who should know better">, never ceases <"to amaze me">.

cheers Darrel
 
Wookii said:
What a stupid thing for them to say - the lack of knowledge in some LFS's is truly astounding sometimes! Your water is fine - zero KH would also be absolutely fine, mine always is.

Tetras are commonly very lazy fish, depending on species. It is common behaviour for them to just hang motionless in the tank for a large chunk of the day until they think food might be in the offing, then they'll spring into action. My Embers were always like that. It's also completely natural for them to a) want to stay out of brightly lit areas (who wants to be under a spot-light for predators), b) areas with the lowest flow (= minimum energy expenditure). Add into that your Neon shoal is too small, so they'll be nervous and hiding, and the Embers will be thinking, 'well it's safer if we just hide with those guys - they look nervous, there must be some danger about'!

If you want your fish to be more active, there are some things you can do:

  1. As @shangman has pointed out above, your shoal of Neons is far too small - the larger the shoal, the more confident they will become. Also both species are naturally fairly shy and reserved, so adding in some bolder, more confident 'dither' fish could also help.
  2. Reverse the flow around your tank, as @tam was eluding to, tetras often prefer the slower flow areas, so you need to create that at the front of the tank - put the filter outlet and inlet at the rear corner of the tank - more flow at the rear and less at the front will encourage the fish into the lower flow area for your viewing pleasure.
  3. Consider getting rid of both the high light and the CO2. Very few, if any of the plants you have in the tank require either. Lower light (like half or less) will encourage more exploration from the fish. You could also encourage this further with some floating plants or emersed plants. In my experience lower or zero CO2 levels results in greater activity from fish. I'm not sure why, maybe a respiratory system response, who knows? - but I've seen it enough times to be sure. (As a side benefit, lower light and no CO2 will reduce your costs, and massively reduce the maintenance and trimming you need to do).
  4. Try some live food (assuming you don't already) - something like daphnia that can be gown easily in outdoor tubs at this time of year are ideal. Not only will it bring your fish into peak health and condition, it will encourage them to hunt about in the foliage for the daphnia (particularly if you turn the filter off and feed over a large area) over an extended period of time, and build that in as a more habitual activity rather than just waiting to be spoon fed.



This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't think an iwagumi is particularly suitable for any type fish at all.



I love Oto's but you'll see them even less than the other fish (they are largely nocturnal), and they won't do anything to encourage activity in the other fish, if that is the aim.

I'm sure you'll get lots of suggestions for suitable dither fish - more unusually I've found Cories can sometimes fulfil that roll depending on species, and might be suitable for you as you don't appear to have any bottom feeders currently (assuming your gravel is rounded and not sharp). 8-10 Julii cories for example will regularly patrol the tank floor looking for food, and I often see other fish following mine around hoping the Cories find something for them.
Click to expand...
Thank you all for your replies.

From taking this all in, I will either a) add another 6 Green neons to make the shoal bigger and see if this helps or b) try a dither fish. I do like the look of the small Pygmy corydoras, always busy at the bottom and won’t look too big for my scape. Not sure if they will move my soil around onto the gravel though? I worry about my bio load getting larger with more fish?

Another take away, is not to bother with that LFS again, and the one giving me the advice was supposed to be the senior / most knowledgeable one 🙄 I was bemused, and decided at that point there was no point debating it, and to check with other experts here, just to make sure I was not losing my marbles 🤣
 
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