Certainly, but it’s also alright to challenge views based on anecdote that only serve to perpetuate stereotypes. 🙂
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Are a lot of fishkeepers wired differently?
- Thread starter greenbliss
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greenbliss
Member
Im not stereotyping anyone
Interesting someone said we used to live different in the past. My family is all like this and even though maybe some were bad at school and others not those family members bad at school were good butchers or blacksmiths or farmers. But not stupid at all. The opposite if anything. They were really good at these things.
I think there is some things like slightly bad nutrition holding people like this back. I think neurodivergent people are slightly less healthy on average. But if you fix that? Not much can stop you I think. I also think that sometimes someone that would just be a bit eccentric can be disabled by bad health. Or neurodivergent people are more sensitive to bad health. People that aren't like this seem to eat whatever and do whatever and get away with it...
Interesting someone said we used to live different in the past. My family is all like this and even though maybe some were bad at school and others not those family members bad at school were good butchers or blacksmiths or farmers. But not stupid at all. The opposite if anything. They were really good at these things.
I think there is some things like slightly bad nutrition holding people like this back. I think neurodivergent people are slightly less healthy on average. But if you fix that? Not much can stop you I think. I also think that sometimes someone that would just be a bit eccentric can be disabled by bad health. Or neurodivergent people are more sensitive to bad health. People that aren't like this seem to eat whatever and do whatever and get away with it...
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FrozenShivers
Member
At least we can discuss sensitive topics whilst remaining civil to each other with our differing views, which is more than can be said for most of the internet 😄
greenbliss
Member
One thing comes to mind is that someone on another thread said we consider the wrong people disabled in our society. Some of the worst politicians and so on will never get help, or even think there is anything wrong with them... Yet they do more harm. But instead we focus on neurodiversity which really is just a difference? With a tendency for these people to be genuinely good people. I mean its not even a problem really anyways? I think if people didn't treat neurodiverse people so badly not many would have problems focusing or have all these health problems.. Among other things
I feel like the tide is changing in our society in terms of who will be in power... Could be false but I don't think so
I feel like the tide is changing in our society in terms of who will be in power... Could be false but I don't think so
Maf 2500
Member
Yes, I am sure a certain American politician whose name rhymes with dump considers himself to be sane.
greenbliss
Member
Makes you wonder what will happen with the assassination attempts... Year isn't over yet..
You hear a lot of talk about the mental health benefits of gardening, yet it’s seen as something that benefits everyone, neurodivergent or not (that is assuming you actually enjoy it). Mental health is a work in progress, in the same way that an active lifestyle supports your physical health.
The kind of auarium-keeping we appreciate on this forum is undeservedly niche, at least in the UK. Where would you come into contact with “good” planted aquariums if you don’t already know about the hobby? It’s arguably more accessible than gardening, financially. Yes it’s nerdy, but so is GQT. It’s a bit of a reclusive hobby for sure but I don’t think this is by choice, probably exacerbated by things moving online and away from physical clubs etc
The kind of auarium-keeping we appreciate on this forum is undeservedly niche, at least in the UK. Where would you come into contact with “good” planted aquariums if you don’t already know about the hobby? It’s arguably more accessible than gardening, financially. Yes it’s nerdy, but so is GQT. It’s a bit of a reclusive hobby for sure but I don’t think this is by choice, probably exacerbated by things moving online and away from physical clubs etc
greenbliss
Member
But is it much to do with nerdiness... People with ADHD are usually athletic
tam
Member
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You quite literally and repeatedly are.
Stereotype: a generalized belief about a particular category of people.
So far you've said that people with 'ADHD / Autism, learning disabilities and so on' have:
- less social skills
- a sense of creativity
- are less healthy
- are more sensitive to bad health
- can't eat what they like an get away with it like people that aren't 'like them'
- a tendency to be genuinely good people
- are usually athletic
Just avoid the the sweeping statements, people are way to diverse.
greenbliss
Member
This is all my personal experience in life and observations but also from reading the science
I think its important to talk about these things as I felt the mainstream solutions didn't provide a full answer to these problems although it did help a bit
You know scientists have literally studied that people with these 'problems' (not really problems) have a heightened sense of fairness. You can find this if you look it up easily. That's just one example of one thing from the bullet point list that can be backed up scientifically. If that's not a sign of being a good person I don't know what is. The thing about athleticism is also actually scientifically backed up but the study was in german and would need to be translated
I'm just looking at the facts with not much emotion as a way to see how we can help people. I can post the studies tomorrow if not another day when I find them
I think its important to talk about these things as I felt the mainstream solutions didn't provide a full answer to these problems although it did help a bit
You know scientists have literally studied that people with these 'problems' (not really problems) have a heightened sense of fairness. You can find this if you look it up easily. That's just one example of one thing from the bullet point list that can be backed up scientifically. If that's not a sign of being a good person I don't know what is. The thing about athleticism is also actually scientifically backed up but the study was in german and would need to be translated
I'm just looking at the facts with not much emotion as a way to see how we can help people. I can post the studies tomorrow if not another day when I find them
MichaelJ
Member
Um... short answer: Nope! Long answer: I have known aquarists of all walks of life for the past +40 years and never seen a correlation with said diagnosis. My guess is that they (we) are just as diverse as any other group of people dedicated to a somewhat challenging hobby that takes patience and consistency - which of course entails certain character traits - but none of the above labels are applicable and a very poor generalization quite frankly.
Bring it on!
Cheers,
Michael
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tam
Member
- Joined
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- 1,555
I do know that. Something can be both statistically true and a stereotype. Sometimes those are the worse stereotypes because people use science to justify themselves (good old lies, damned lies, and statistics).
I would certainly encourage you to reference your sources, but they won't stop your statements being stereotypes.
There was an article in The Times this morning about personality type and career. For example, they found estate agents to be more disagreeable. Problem was their sample size was only 268 per career. They also had massively overlapping distribution curves (not reported in The Times, but evident in the source paper), so whilst statistically significant the findings have no practical validity what so ever. Loads of people will read the rubbish article and start stereotyping holders of particular careers...
So, whilst cloaked as science, it was a poor study and poorly reported.
So, whilst cloaked as science, it was a poor study and poorly reported.
JMorgan
Member
I read an interesting book many years ago called Time Shifting by Stephan Rechtschaffen where he talks about the difference in how we process thoughts vs feelings over time. Mental processes being incredibly fast compared to emotional processes. Feelings take time to well up, to be felt and expressed and to subside. By contrast even before you've consciously read this far part of your brain has already noticed the word hippopotamus and has begun retrieving data and images relating to hippopotami. In other words it's so fast, we can't stop it.
That means that if we keep bombarding our minds with information to process, we tend to avoid feeling emotion, especially those that are painful or uncomfortable to us. This hyper-alert mental state is also typically associated with achieving goals, problem solving and doing various tasks quickly and efficiently so as to make us employable: Time is money, as the saying goes. So this is a state that is actively rewarded, whereas we typically only perceive the rewards of slowing things down in terms of improving mental and emotional health. Meaning it typically has to get pretty bad before we pay it any attention.
Historically, by which I mean at least 300,000 years, most human beings experienced extended periods of 'down time' when the greater part of our attention was engaged in either conserving energy in preparation for doing physically strenuous activities, or less strenuous but very repetitive tasks where, eventually, the mind can begin to slow down and, (largely unconsciously), we process life experiences and emotion.
Importantly, a lot of these activities also involved solitude, or time in our own company. Of course to some extent, this 'down time' happens while we're sleeping, (and it's one reason why sleep deprivation is an effective form of torture) but the research indicates that this wakeful 'down time' is as important as sleep in the long term.
The industrial revolution changed our relationship with time not least because our time became a commodity with less or more value per hour. Instead of being paid for a completed job, a task with a beginning, middle and end where other variables, notably the weather, would determine how much time it took, jobs were typically never ending, at least in mines, mills and factories. It wasn't until 1819 that a law was passed making it illegal to employ children under the age of 9 and limiting their working day to 12 hours!
This left a lot of people with mental and emotional challenges they weren't equipped to tackle, not least because 'down time' during which to process emotional experiences is also precluded by total exhaustion. Over decades of social reform this gave rise to a radical idea: spare time. Though a notion largely enjoyed by men, this gave rise to the idea of the 'hobby' or leisure activity.
My theory is that there's something in all of us that is deeply, if largely unconsciously, aware of the enormous gulf that now exists between how we human beings lived our lives for 99% of our history as anatomically modern humans, and how we live today. The 'information age' being, if anything, a period where experiencing 'down time' is even more elusive than in the industrial age, unless it's actively prioritised.
I suspect that in this, people identifying as neurodivergent actually have an advantage, if only in the sense that they're at least trying to figure out ways and means, strategies and practices, that help them feel better and understand that this is very individual to them. i.e. there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to mental and emotional health. There are however strong indicators that pretty much ANYTHING that reconnects us to nature and living, growing things, is a step in the right direction.
That's probably true for all 8 billion of us, very much including those who get 'bored' in the countryside, since 'boredom' is the mental state just before things slow down enough to start to feel emotions.
That means that if we keep bombarding our minds with information to process, we tend to avoid feeling emotion, especially those that are painful or uncomfortable to us. This hyper-alert mental state is also typically associated with achieving goals, problem solving and doing various tasks quickly and efficiently so as to make us employable: Time is money, as the saying goes. So this is a state that is actively rewarded, whereas we typically only perceive the rewards of slowing things down in terms of improving mental and emotional health. Meaning it typically has to get pretty bad before we pay it any attention.
Historically, by which I mean at least 300,000 years, most human beings experienced extended periods of 'down time' when the greater part of our attention was engaged in either conserving energy in preparation for doing physically strenuous activities, or less strenuous but very repetitive tasks where, eventually, the mind can begin to slow down and, (largely unconsciously), we process life experiences and emotion.
Importantly, a lot of these activities also involved solitude, or time in our own company. Of course to some extent, this 'down time' happens while we're sleeping, (and it's one reason why sleep deprivation is an effective form of torture) but the research indicates that this wakeful 'down time' is as important as sleep in the long term.
The industrial revolution changed our relationship with time not least because our time became a commodity with less or more value per hour. Instead of being paid for a completed job, a task with a beginning, middle and end where other variables, notably the weather, would determine how much time it took, jobs were typically never ending, at least in mines, mills and factories. It wasn't until 1819 that a law was passed making it illegal to employ children under the age of 9 and limiting their working day to 12 hours!
This left a lot of people with mental and emotional challenges they weren't equipped to tackle, not least because 'down time' during which to process emotional experiences is also precluded by total exhaustion. Over decades of social reform this gave rise to a radical idea: spare time. Though a notion largely enjoyed by men, this gave rise to the idea of the 'hobby' or leisure activity.
My theory is that there's something in all of us that is deeply, if largely unconsciously, aware of the enormous gulf that now exists between how we human beings lived our lives for 99% of our history as anatomically modern humans, and how we live today. The 'information age' being, if anything, a period where experiencing 'down time' is even more elusive than in the industrial age, unless it's actively prioritised.
I suspect that in this, people identifying as neurodivergent actually have an advantage, if only in the sense that they're at least trying to figure out ways and means, strategies and practices, that help them feel better and understand that this is very individual to them. i.e. there is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to mental and emotional health. There are however strong indicators that pretty much ANYTHING that reconnects us to nature and living, growing things, is a step in the right direction.
That's probably true for all 8 billion of us, very much including those who get 'bored' in the countryside, since 'boredom' is the mental state just before things slow down enough to start to feel emotions.
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greenbliss
Member
This does make me wonder how life will change in the next 50-100 years or so. Will we go back partially to the old ways while still retaining modern technology?
seems to me thats the only answer
I agree about the nature thing. I personally want to go back to farming but my family is telling me to be a doctor or lawyer and I think what on earth is the point? Ok maybe it would help make money to buy the equipment for the farm... But who is going to be happy working hellish jobs like that...
driving up and down in a tractor would provide plenty time for reflection...
seems to me thats the only answer
I agree about the nature thing. I personally want to go back to farming but my family is telling me to be a doctor or lawyer and I think what on earth is the point? Ok maybe it would help make money to buy the equipment for the farm... But who is going to be happy working hellish jobs like that...
driving up and down in a tractor would provide plenty time for reflection...
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@JMorgan interesting. How did they measure the time differences between ‘mental’ vs ‘emotional’ processing? (Deliberately in quotes as they are both arguably mental processes). Interestingly, other research that I’m aware of shows that emotional responses are far quicker and use less energy than conscious thought processes. For example, recognising emotion on a face triggers a faster brain response (measured using fMRI scans) than a cognitive task. Emotional responses sit in the amygdala and lymbic system of the brain which evolved to manage emotions and threat (fight or flight response) vs cognitive tasks that take place in the frontal lobes. Expressing emotion is, of course, vastly different to experiencing emotion, and much slower.
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Simply having an interest or activity in your life that you are totally passionate about that might also engender a 'flow'* state is a pretty good place to be. Works for all.
* See Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi rather than fluid dynamics.
* See Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi rather than fluid dynamics.
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Bradders
Member
I have never considered a ‘wired differently’ aspect. What is ‘wired differently’ @greenbliss ?
My middle child who has all the things you talk about has absolutely no interest in fish or planted aquariums. But he does love to code.
My life observations are that people may have something you can ‘label’ but where that individual goes seems to be a random and somewhat exciting thing to watch!
My middle child who has all the things you talk about has absolutely no interest in fish or planted aquariums. But he does love to code.
My life observations are that people may have something you can ‘label’ but where that individual goes seems to be a random and somewhat exciting thing to watch!
Exactly. Let’s not put people into boxes because of some behavioural aspects (whether as a result of personality or neurodiversity) and treat people as individuals and in their own merits.
