AQUARIUM WITH BUILT IN FILTRATION COMPARTMENT

[zozo]

So the main tank will always have the same water level as long as the pump is running but any evaporation will lower the last compartment ten fold ?
That is fine if you are home every day to check it otherwise you will need an auto top up?

Yup that's the case with any sump. Autofill would be nice but since it needs mechanical stuff then an overflow in the sump is required as a fail-safe. Similar to the overflow in the toilet cistern prevents flooding if the valve fails to shut.

As said in this case it could easily be prevented with drilling a little hole under the pump outlet. That will equal the water level with the aquarium. A 1mm hole will already be enough for that. 🙂

If you don't then this will be your evaporation reservior. Marked in blue. What's that 1 litre? Refill every day.

 

[Andrew Butler]

along with an ATO which should keep water level under control

That is fine if you are home every day to check it otherwise you will need an auto top up?

Autofill would be nice

If you look back to earlier posts (#7 #8 I think) I was going to have the final over baffle made shorter and don't know why I didn't if I'm honest.
If I were to do this then this would fix the problem in any case wouldn't it should the ATO fail?
I could also explore the option of adding 'X' amount of water through one of my spare dosing channels.

What do you think to simply lowering the final over over baffle?

Am I wrong to think that if the over baffle(s) is/are below the low water line then it should still flow through?

 

[foxfish]

Unfortunate not, you can equalise the water level by making a direct connection from the last compartment to the main tank (ie as Marcel suggest via a small hole) or you can fit a micro top up valve to the last compartment or an float switch to a reserve water tank.
However if you connect the filter to the tank you will still have to monitor the water level as eventually it would drop below the baffle.
All the sumps I have ever used rely on a top up valve.
If you removed all the baffles then you would have far more scope for evaporation as you would have the total volume of you sump compartment.

 

[zozo]

You could remove the last baffle completely. 🙂 It actually has little function. Then you will increase the volume x 2.5

Then you still will have the same issue with that water level lowering with evaporation from the tank. Keeping both levels in tank and sump permanently the same will be impossible without an autofill.

But in this case, it could also be beneficial since it will turn the second compartment that holds bio-media partially into a trickle filter while the water level slowly lowers.

 

[Chris Tinker]

The problem is I know it's an eyesore! - maybe an air pump could help things hidden away in the filtration section?

This has led to further though and I'm now wondering if the filter not having traditional sump overflow baffles where water would fall into the next chamber and instead simply running with a constant water level throughout along with not skimming the surface and taking air in would effect the CO2 levels? 😵

Reading the journal and i was waiting to suggest this. Air stone under your media so the bubbles go up, while the water pushes it down... back to page 2 august i go. Hate spoilers...

 

[foxfish]

If you fitted a cover glass then evaporation would be very low, it might only need a bit of topping up every week or so.

 

[Andrew Butler]

If I cut to the chase - I'm not sure what I'm doing, don't understand the science and really just don't have a clue.

I know what I'd like; an aquarium with a partitioned filtration compartment situated on one end that will take water through a weir comb type strainer from the waters surface, allow me to put the flow through filter foam, have a section for media (bio-balls etc) and a compartment for positioning a return pump, heater etc. I'd also like that to run without any cascading water etc, mainly to help keep it running quietly. So now I need to work out how to make that happen which if you think you can then I'm all ears and welcome to a many suggestions. 😉

you can equalise the water level by making a direct connection from the last compartment to the main tank (ie as Marcel suggest via a small hole)

I assume this is the easiest way to keep the water in the aquarium and filtration compartment the same? Any other suggestions?

if you connect the filter to the tank you will still have to monitor the water level as eventually it would drop below the baffle

I don't understand why this would happen if the hole was drilled to equalise the system, unless the hole was to be below the waters surface.

you can fit a micro top up valve to the last compartment or an float switch to a reserve water tank.

This is something I've got, used in the past and always planned to include it - I've maybe just been unsure where; in the filtration compartment or the display but hidden in the filtration is preferable.

If you removed all the baffles then you would have far more scope for evaporation as you would have the total volume of you sump compartment.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm I'd like to understand things before I take this step.

You could remove the last baffle completely. 🙂 It actually has little function. Then you will increase the volume x 2.5

Then you still will have the same issue with that water level lowering with evaporation from the tank. Keeping both levels in tank and sump permanently the same will be impossible without an autofill.

But in this case, it could also be beneficial since it will turn the second compartment that holds bio-media partially into a trickle filter while the water level slowly lowers.

You do mean just the last baffle - so there would be 3 left? under/over/under
I'd really like to try and find a way to have the water level throughout the whole system at the same level - is this just not possible? 😵

 

[zozo]

This 🙂 The last baffle in your picture should simply be a vertical strip. Not taller than yellow block = polishing sponge and it retains the detritus that falls from the bio-media.
It will accumulate in front of that sponge.

And this will be silent 🙂



All permanently the same water level than you should prevent evaporation. Cover all tight.. Is it open top, then yes, it's not possible. 🙂

 

[Andrew Butler]

Is it open top

There will be a cover over the filtration section but have space for cables etc.

There are companies out there who make all in one aquariums, the kind of concept I'm looking to achieve; lifeguard aquatics being one so how do they make such systems work?

The last baffle in your picture should simply be a vertical strip

I only see the water falling in height which I think would make some noise in my opinion.
So the simple method of drilling a small hole between main display and pump/return section would not allow me to keep the levels in filtration and display section the same without having to do anything else? I'm unsure the idea of the hole in that case.

 

[zozo]

I only see the water falling in height which I think would make some noise in my opinion.

Where do you see that?

So the simple method of drilling a small hole between main display and pump/return section would not allow me to keep the levels in filtration and display section the same without having to do anything else? I'm unsure the idea of the hole in that case.

No, not entirely but it will take a longer time. 🙂 There always will be a time you need to top off water and since your pumping water from the filter section to the tank, the filter will always start to drain at some point. Also because you will pump more volume out than can run back from a small hole.

But we are definitively overcomplicating things. To learn it is best to stop thinking and stop talking about it and start building. Take a known concept that prooved and replicate it and see how it functions in real-time.


Play with that for a while and go from there to improve it.

If you are stuck on wanting both filter and tank always the same water level. Than you rather skip the sump idea go with Hamburg mattenfilter concept.

 

[foxfish]

So this is the problem ... any and all evaporation will only be noticeable in the filter pump compartment.
That means if there is 1mm of water loss in the main tank that with only be noticeable as 20mm in the pump chamber. (Just an approximation )

 

[foxfish]

There are ways to rectify the issue....
Install a mini top up valve in the pump chamber, a 6mm mains water RO supply would work.
Install a micro float switch in the pump chamber that powers a small pump to top up from a reservoir.
Change the inlet from a surface skimmer to a bottom drain.... that might involve quite a bit of work though as a hole would have to be drilled and the filter chamber baffles altered .
Placing a glass cover over the tank would be the easy option or just topping up manually when needed.
It may be you won’t experience any real issues at all and it will run smoothly? Only one way to find that out.....

 

[Andrew Butler]

Where do you see that?

No, not entirely but it will take a longer time

What is the use of the small hole in this case?

To learn it is best to stop thinking and stop talking about it and start building. Take a known concept that prooved and replicate it and see how it functions in real-time.

It's being built for me so would like to get things something like right.

If you are stuck on wanting both filter and tank always the same water level. Than you rather skip the sump idea go with Hamburg mattenfilter concept.

I looked into this method and I don't think it's the method for me.

@foxfish I understand what you mean with reference to area of water being lost in the display and that being multiplied in the pump section.

I already have an optical sensor I can locate in the return section which operates an ATO system.
I'm keen to keep the inlet at the surface to draw in any oils etc and although not a skimmer it should give some kind of benefit I think.
A glass cover over the whole aquarium is another thing I don't want to do although the filtration section will be covered, in part at least.
I can think about using one of the spare channels on my doser to keep things going along with the ATO

 

[Andrew Butler]

I've had a read back over all of this from the start with a clearer head and I think I now understands certain things a little better; I'd assumptions with this being an all in one compared to a separate sump that it would just run at a consistent level throughout - why, who knows!

I do intend to have an ATO with the sensor in the return pump section which I think is the correct place if I'm to assume this runs as a conventional sump

Questions I now have..............
-if I were to set the return pump to stop even for a few minutes a day would this then allow water to settle itself at a continual level throughout?
-if the above was possible would this then give the ATO a chance to make the water level consistent throughout display and filtration section?
-if either or both were possible would I need the small hole in return section drilled for them to happen? - maybe this would make it easier or being acrylic would you dare drill it after?

@zozo and @foxfish feel free to try and answer if it doesn't include banging your heads against the wall in frustration
Anyone else who has an understanding feel free to jump in.

 

[webworm]

One of the main things to think about is the size of the 'overflow' which then comes down to all sorts of maths around hydraulics.
The width of the opening into the filter section (lets call it a weir) along with it's height will dictate the maximum flow rate that can be achieved. Of course remembering that the actual height of the water above the weir will be determined by the flow rate of the water returning to the tank.

There's a nice on-line calculator here: http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/Water-Measurements/Rectangular-Contracted-Weir.php

With a weir of 10cm x 2.5cm, you get a flow rate of 11 L/Min. Of course you can reverse the calculations to give you a weir size for a specific flow rate.

So lots to think about, but in reality, it's a case of trial and error to see what can be achieved.

 

[foxfish]

if there was a small hole joining the pump compartment and the main tank .....when the pump was turned off the water levels would equalise but as soon as the pump is tuned back on, the pump chamber will return to the same state as it was before.
Joining the two is not really the answer, all that will do is temporarily delay the pump chamber running dry.

You are close but I don’t think you have quite grasped the mechanics as yet.
Look at my drawing again, without making a video I don’t think. I can explain it any better than the drawing.

However try this..... as long as the pump is running it is impossible for the main tank water level to drop below the overflow . Even if you scoped out a cup full of water the level would only drop for a second or two before the pump refilled the tank and water begins to overflow again.... now that cup full of water has gone, the tank is still full but the pump chamber has a cup full less water.

 

[Andrew Butler]

Hey, @webworm thanks for the info but I'm getting different info from what you are for the 10cm x 2.5cm weir - that gives you 0.7 lps which equates to 42 lpm if I'm not correct? (lps x 60 = lpm) unsure if I'm looking at the wrong thing?
Everything I'm suggesting assumes the weir and filtration can keep up with the pump.

if there was a small hole joining the pump compartment and the main tank .....when the pump was turned off the water levels would equalise but as soon as the pump is tuned back on, the pump chamber will return to the same state as it was before.

Even if the ATU boosted the level(s) in both display and filtration sections?

You are close but I don’t think you have quite grasped the mechanics as yet.

Neither do I 🙁 - Tried having a look back over your drawings and I just don't think I do understand why the possible suggestions I mentioned would work.
Maybe I should just be quiet as I feel like I'm missing the very obvious and just at risk of sounding even more stupid.
Without seeing this first hand and witnessing what's going on I don't think I stand a chance so the right methods to employ have now lost me completely.

I need to go right back to begining; find a way to configure a system without really understanding it.
If it was your aquarium @foxfish then how would you design it and why is maybe the easiest question I have right now baring in mind I'd like to keep the under/over configuration etc.
Also how do I keep the display section at the same level and keep the filtration part quiet?

 

[foxfish]

Well I have always used sumps and a 6mm float valve from the mains water.
I like using a sump for my filter and hiding equipment but the whole sump is hidden from view.
However I am a practical sort of guy, I can build what I want and just how I want.

Under tank sumps with overflow supply are definitely not a simple or easy option and I would not recommend them for a the average planted tank.
Your design does not fit my personal goals as it is visible and far to small.
It would be a lot easier to stand a power filter along side the tank.
However all you need is an auto top up into you pump compartment and your design will work, a mini ball valve cost a few £s you just need to connect it to a water supply .

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

However try this..... as long as the pump is running it is impossible for the main tank water level to drop below the overflow . Even if you scooped out a cup full of water the level would only drop for a second or two before the pump refilled the tank and water begins to overflow again.... now that cup full of water has gone, the tank is still full but the pump chamber has a cup full less water.

Perfect.

cheers Darrel

 

[Andrew Butler]

@foxfish @zozo @dw1305
I'm unsure why but the water level in my display seems to be evaporating at the same rate as the filtration (and return) section.
I've got foam in at the moment but am yet to add a ceramic media but can't see that making a difference in the way suggested.
any idea why this seem to be exception to the rule?