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Any advice welcome
- Thread starter uk bulldog
- Start date
jack-rythm
Member
I'm pleased I passed it forward now 🙂 get in there Darren! Come over tonight Daz I got some more to trim for u! 🙂 got to send some off to another ukaps member but you can have my next lot. My peacock moss from Tim should arrive today so u can check that out too 🙂
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
uk bulldog
Seedling
Hi Garuf i fully understand what you say regards shoping around to see what is available to do the job i require but as i was given a great deal by TGM on the equipment i bought along with very sound advice it seemed logical to buy my bits there ie the Ehiem pro3 1200xlt was sold to me at price i was unable to match anywhere else & at a great saveing just like the ADA its on an if i dont use a bag they will take it back senario & the Co2 system with an aquamedic reactor was more than competertively priced .Plus after talking to TGM i now realise i dont need to top off the ADA with gravel so i wont be,but thanks for your advice as it is more than welcome.
Daza that Riccia carpet looks stunning to me but like you i am new to all regards planted tanks & now i have a lot to learn & know doubt i will make a lot of mistakes along the way which was my reason for joining this forum & im more than happy to take on any advice from people in the know & thanks for the pics.
Paul
Daza that Riccia carpet looks stunning to me but like you i am new to all regards planted tanks & now i have a lot to learn & know doubt i will make a lot of mistakes along the way which was my reason for joining this forum & im more than happy to take on any advice from people in the know & thanks for the pics.
Paul
Hi all,
I have a low tech Riccia "carpet", unfortunately it is at the waters surface, not the substrates.
pH is a ratio, and it tells us nothing about amounts.
If you can visualise the acidity/alkalinity in terms of the relative amounts of proton (H+ ion) donors and acceptors, and their reserves, rather than being entirely reliant on their ratio (which we measure as pH) it becomes a lot easier. If you have small potential reserve of H+ acceptors and donors, (the soft water/low conductivity scenario), the pH can swing about over almost the entire pH scale, but there can only ever be a very limited change in the numbers of ions and it is the total amount of ions that is much more important than their relative ratio.
You get the exact reverse of this is in very strongly buffered alkaline water (with a huge reserve of H+ acceptors) where you need to make extremely large changes in water chemistry to effect the pH.
That is not to say that low pH and lack of buffering are irrelevant, they aren't and in very soft, salts poor water, biological filtration capacity will be compromised and if biological filtration is severely compromised acidosis can occur in the un-planted tank. Both fish dying and low pH are symptoms of the loss of biological filtration, rather than the low pH killing the fish.
However in planted tanks we can largely ignore biological filtration by the filter bacteria (which require HCO3) because the plants are removing the NH4+ ions before microbial oxidation occurs.
cheers Darrel
I have a low tech Riccia "carpet", unfortunately it is at the waters surface, not the substrates.
I get this a lot on some of the other forums, but "pH crash" honestly is a myth in planted tanks. The problem is that pH isn't a very useful measurement away from carbonate buffered water, once we get into water with few salts in it (like RO) pH becomes totally meaningless and inherently unstable.
pH is a ratio, and it tells us nothing about amounts.
If you can visualise the acidity/alkalinity in terms of the relative amounts of proton (H+ ion) donors and acceptors, and their reserves, rather than being entirely reliant on their ratio (which we measure as pH) it becomes a lot easier. If you have small potential reserve of H+ acceptors and donors, (the soft water/low conductivity scenario), the pH can swing about over almost the entire pH scale, but there can only ever be a very limited change in the numbers of ions and it is the total amount of ions that is much more important than their relative ratio.
You get the exact reverse of this is in very strongly buffered alkaline water (with a huge reserve of H+ acceptors) where you need to make extremely large changes in water chemistry to effect the pH.
That is not to say that low pH and lack of buffering are irrelevant, they aren't and in very soft, salts poor water, biological filtration capacity will be compromised and if biological filtration is severely compromised acidosis can occur in the un-planted tank. Both fish dying and low pH are symptoms of the loss of biological filtration, rather than the low pH killing the fish.
However in planted tanks we can largely ignore biological filtration by the filter bacteria (which require HCO3) because the plants are removing the NH4+ ions before microbial oxidation occurs.
This is another factoid you get on a lot of forums, but again you can't generalise, it all depends upon the fish. Lake Tanganyika cichlids, for example, have evolved in infinitely buffered water where small changes in pH indicate huge changes in alkalinity, but another cichlid like Apistogramma nijsenni has evolved in water with virtually no salts, but with plenty of acid humic compounds. In this second case these black-water fish are prone to unexplained death if kept in harder, saltier water.
cheers Darrel
daza.141
Member
ideal will do mate 😀
Darren
Darren
jack-rythm
Member
your lush mix came too 😉
Sorry, to hijack this, but can I ask Darrel to expand a little more on this point? Does this make Tanganyikan cichlids unsuitable for a planted aquarium? I assume, from what you're saying, that in hard water, injecting CO2 won't have a meaningful impact on the environment the fish experiences, other than more luscious plants to swim around, and so there is no concern. I live in London, don't use RO, so my tank is basically just hard London water. I don't know how hard, but quite hard. I inject CO2, have big lights, EI, lots of flow etc. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thanks to all, S
jack-rythm
Member
By all means its actually an interesting point you made!
Sent from my Nexus 7
Sent from my Nexus 7
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
Simple answer is I don't know. I know Ed Seeley has kept high tech tanks and Tanganyikan Cichlids, but I'm not sure it was simultaneously. Most Rift Valley Cichlid keepers tend not to have any plants, and the only planted tanks I've seen have been low tech. which were fine.
High CO2 levels can definitely have an impact on your fish, if you ramp the CO2 high enough to get your drop checker (pH indicator) into the green or yellow (with very hard water and bromothymol blue indicator), you will have asphyxiated your fish. I'm not a CO2 user, but based on the table below you would still be in the alkaline pH range when you got to 30ppm CO2. From <http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/basic-knowledge/co2-in-the-aquarium/co2-table.aspx>
cheers Darrel
uk bulldog
Seedling
Hi Darrel,i can see where you are comeing from regards Ph crash in the planted tank but when i breed my angels they are kept in barebottom tanks with no plants & no Co2,i used RO water to lower the Kh in my tank as the harness was to high for breeding the angels,the mistake i made was to use way tomuch RO to try & lower the Kh which inturn lowerd my Ph to below 4Ph which basicly wiped out my fish which i understand to be a Ph crash if i am wrong then i stand corrected & thanks for pointing it out.
Paul
Paul
Yes, you have drawn the wrong conclusion as to cause of death. Something else killed your fish and whatever it was may also have had an impact on the pH, or the pH may have only coincidentally been low.Since no one does an autopsy on fish that perish people guess incorrectly as to the cause of death. There is a plethora of possibilities as to the root cause, but fish that have evolved in acid waters cannot possibly be killed just due to acidic waters. I have routinely kept and bred dwarf chiclids in RO water below pH 4 and many times I could only breeding success I could get was to lower the pH below 3 so low pH causing death cannot be a cause. Angels originate in the same waters as dwarf chiclids.
Rift Valley chiclids are typically not kept in planted tanks because they tend to rip the plants apart, therefore, depending on the species, the plants must either be protected using some kind of barrier or the plants must be of the very tough and hardy variety to discourage the fish from attacking. This limits the types of plants that can be used. Other than that there is no reason why they cannot be mixed. These lakes typically do not have plants due to the extremely high Sodium content, some plants can be found normally only in the littoral zones (i.e, shoreline) so most of the hobbyists typically do not associate plants with these fish. High alkalinity or high general hardness is not a deterrent to plant growth, only the sodium caries the toxicity, but people don't bother to think about that, they just assume that because the lakes have a high GH/KH and that it must be bad for plants. This is how the myth about RO water being necessary for plants came about, because Amazonia has soft water with plants while Rift Valley Lakes have hard water with no plants. As it turns out London tap water is fine for plants so the only problem with Tanganyikans is to find a way or a species that are less hostile to plants as well as to find plants that are somewhat resistant to the attacks.
Cheers,
CO2 has an enormous impact on the environment because it is extremely toxic to fish. Therefore a planted tank with Tanganyika cichlids carries exactly the same risk as with any other fish in an CO2 injected tank.Skatersav said:
Rift Valley chiclids are typically not kept in planted tanks because they tend to rip the plants apart, therefore, depending on the species, the plants must either be protected using some kind of barrier or the plants must be of the very tough and hardy variety to discourage the fish from attacking. This limits the types of plants that can be used. Other than that there is no reason why they cannot be mixed. These lakes typically do not have plants due to the extremely high Sodium content, some plants can be found normally only in the littoral zones (i.e, shoreline) so most of the hobbyists typically do not associate plants with these fish. High alkalinity or high general hardness is not a deterrent to plant growth, only the sodium caries the toxicity, but people don't bother to think about that, they just assume that because the lakes have a high GH/KH and that it must be bad for plants. This is how the myth about RO water being necessary for plants came about, because Amazonia has soft water with plants while Rift Valley Lakes have hard water with no plants. As it turns out London tap water is fine for plants so the only problem with Tanganyikans is to find a way or a species that are less hostile to plants as well as to find plants that are somewhat resistant to the attacks.
Cheers,
Clifford
Member
Most of the Tanganyikan cichlids available couldn't care less about the plants in the tank, and any plants tend to be for the pleasure of the fishkeeper. Of the most commonly kept only the Tropheus are particularly herbivorous. The rest are pretty much carnivorous, and only damage plants if they dig to set up territories or as breeding behaviour.
Vallis, in particular, seems to do very well and provides an excellent screen to reduce sight lines and aggression. I'm sure there may well be some reason why vallis seems to thrive in water with high KH, but I don't know what that is.
Vallis, in particular, seems to do very well and provides an excellent screen to reduce sight lines and aggression. I'm sure there may well be some reason why vallis seems to thrive in water with high KH, but I don't know what that is.
Well there you have it. If most are not prone to attack the plants then there is no issue at all.
Vallis has the ability to convert the bicarbonate to CO2 using the reactions:
(bicarbonate)HCO3- + (H+) => (Carbonic acid)H2CO3
Then
(Carbonic acid)H2CO3 => CO2 + H2O
Hydrogen protons (H+) are pumped out into the water column from the leaf and immediately reacts with the bicarbonate (which is responsible for high KH.) After the CO2 is formed in the vicinity it can then be absorbed by the leaf.
About 50% of aquatic plants have this capability to a greater or lesser extent.
Cheers,
Vallis has the ability to convert the bicarbonate to CO2 using the reactions:
(bicarbonate)HCO3- + (H+) => (Carbonic acid)H2CO3
Then
(Carbonic acid)H2CO3 => CO2 + H2O
Hydrogen protons (H+) are pumped out into the water column from the leaf and immediately reacts with the bicarbonate (which is responsible for high KH.) After the CO2 is formed in the vicinity it can then be absorbed by the leaf.
About 50% of aquatic plants have this capability to a greater or lesser extent.
Cheers,
Clifford
Member
Now that's interesting. I had been told by a chap that had kept aquariums for a very long time that vallis "used" the KH to grow, but he was never able to explain to me why or how.
Is this a "default" behaviour for plants such Vallis - i.e. will it use this process to convert bicarbonate to co2 irrespective of bicarbonate levels, or is this method of conversion only used when levels are high?
I'd imagine pumping H into the water column to release CO2 is quite a high energy exercise compared to simply absorbing readily available CO2 as would be found in a CO2 enritched tank?
Is this a "default" behaviour for plants such Vallis - i.e. will it use this process to convert bicarbonate to co2 irrespective of bicarbonate levels, or is this method of conversion only used when levels are high?
I'd imagine pumping H into the water column to release CO2 is quite a high energy exercise compared to simply absorbing readily available CO2 as would be found in a CO2 enritched tank?
Hi Clive,ceg4048 said:
sorry if this sounds dumb, but its always intrigued me slightly..... I have low carbonate water, would vallis choose c02 or the kh extraction process first?....or both? Im guessing that its harder work for the plant to convert the KH to c02 and therefore if c02 is already available they will just use it without the chemistry?
Thanks,
Ady.
Yes, there is some energy cost for proton pumping, however, what we have to consider is that the use of bicarbonate is a competitive advantage. Natural systems are often limited in CO2 so this ability opens up new areas of exploitation if atmospheric CO2 is not readily available. CO2 is more important than anything else so it's usually worth the investment.
Hydrogen proton production occurs in the initial stages of photosynthesis where the water molecules (H20) are split by hydrolysis. The protons are used to produce ATP, which is later used to make sugar in the final stages of photosynthesis, so the "Proton Pump" mechanism is actually very well developed.
As to bicarbonate usage as a default behavior, well, this is a loaded question because there are so many environmental variables.. For example, a plant may have the ability, but the local water may be low in bicarbonate and slightly higher in CO2, so a better strategy may be to allocate energy in maximizing uptake enzymes/proteins for direct CO2 uptake. The plants are "atheletic" and so will choose the best technique based on cost/benefit.
I've read the results of some experiments using Elodea nuttalli wherein if the plant is subjected to high CO2 levels for extended periods it actually loses the ability to use bicarbonate. The same plants under conditions of low CO2 increased their capacity to use bicarbonate. So this seems more like a "rolling average" behavior as opposed to strict rule.
There are a couple of different ways of maximizing CO2; the bicarbonate method, the use of root uptake of CO2 since the sediment often has a lot of microbe activity which produces CO2 (which Vallis is also very good at), and another mechanism involves the sequestering of CO2 during non-photoperiod times and the conversion and storage of it as an acid called "malate" for later use when the light is available. This mechanism is referred to as Crassulacean acid metabolism (CAM).
So there are all kinds of strategies depending on what stress the plant faces and what it's capable of. The plant has to assess what's available and what the cost/benefit ratio is of a particular strategy. These abilities marks the difference between delicate plants that disintegrate if you even look at them the wrong way, and those that are indomitable weeds.
Cheers,
Hydrogen proton production occurs in the initial stages of photosynthesis where the water molecules (H20) are split by hydrolysis. The protons are used to produce ATP, which is later used to make sugar in the final stages of photosynthesis, so the "Proton Pump" mechanism is actually very well developed.
As to bicarbonate usage as a default behavior, well, this is a loaded question because there are so many environmental variables.. For example, a plant may have the ability, but the local water may be low in bicarbonate and slightly higher in CO2, so a better strategy may be to allocate energy in maximizing uptake enzymes/proteins for direct CO2 uptake. The plants are "atheletic" and so will choose the best technique based on cost/benefit.
I've read the results of some experiments using Elodea nuttalli wherein if the plant is subjected to high CO2 levels for extended periods it actually loses the ability to use bicarbonate. The same plants under conditions of low CO2 increased their capacity to use bicarbonate. So this seems more like a "rolling average" behavior as opposed to strict rule.
There are a couple of different ways of maximizing CO2; the bicarbonate method, the use of root uptake of CO2 since the sediment often has a lot of microbe activity which produces CO2 (which Vallis is also very good at), and another mechanism involves the sequestering of CO2 during non-photoperiod times and the conversion and storage of it as an acid called "malate" for later use when the light is available. This mechanism is referred to as Crassulacean acid metabolism (CAM).
So there are all kinds of strategies depending on what stress the plant faces and what it's capable of. The plant has to assess what's available and what the cost/benefit ratio is of a particular strategy. These abilities marks the difference between delicate plants that disintegrate if you even look at them the wrong way, and those that are indomitable weeds.
Cheers,
8)
Thanks Clive.
Is it generally the true aquatic species that tend to have the ability to extract carbonates for conversion or just a few limited species? Or do all plants have this in their survival pack, just some more so than others and does it mean that those with low carbonate water need to be even more generous with co2 as there is no back up? I know gas/atmospheric co2 is most important to focus on, but technically do you have a tiny bit more leniency with co2 injection rate in higher carbonate water?
Cheers
Ady
Thanks Clive.
Is it generally the true aquatic species that tend to have the ability to extract carbonates for conversion or just a few limited species? Or do all plants have this in their survival pack, just some more so than others and does it mean that those with low carbonate water need to be even more generous with co2 as there is no back up? I know gas/atmospheric co2 is most important to focus on, but technically do you have a tiny bit more leniency with co2 injection rate in higher carbonate water?
Cheers
Ady
Clifford
Member
Thanks Clive,
A truly fascinating and informative reply.
I'm always amazed at the diversity and adaptability of both the flora and fauna that we keep.
A truly fascinating and informative reply.
I'm always amazed at the diversity and adaptability of both the flora and fauna that we keep.
The bicarbonate usage ability occurs in about 50% of species, so those that don't have the ability are at a competitive disadvantage and so there is less margin of error. As I mentioned, because of the various strategies, some plants based on their combination of abilities, have a much wider tolerance for poor CO2 injection.Ady34 said:
We see this reflected everyday in out tanks. When the CO2 availability becomes perturbed we see some particular plants start to melt or to get CO2 related algae first, while others simply carry on. But, remember the different strategies involved that I mentioned above. Because of the different strategies, as well as the different abilities that species (as well as the individual specimens) may have, it's not always clear that the bicarbonate usage is the specific mechanism at play in any given scenario. Also remember as discussed above that the plant has to assess the cost vs benefit and has to decide to invest energy in the maintenance of that strategy. As with that experiment with Elodea I mentioned it may be that if you inject high levels of CO2 the plant decides to shut down the bicarbonate mechanism and allocate it's resources to some other function.
Since we don't know at any given moment what strategy is being employed by what plant, and to what degree, it's not a good idea to unilaterally decide that you can drop the injection rate just because the KH is high. We just know, based on low tech tanks, that some of these old school plants like Egeria, Elodea and Vallis happen to be good at this bicarbonate strategy, and we have a pretty good hint that plants which have a large root network typically are good at sediment CO2 uptake. It's much less obvious which species are using what degree of C4/CAM strategy.
So unless you have a tank full of only Vallis/Elodea it's not a certainty that you'll have leniency in high KH water when it comes to CO2 injection. What happens if you have both Vallis and HC in the same tank? Your CO2 injection has to serve the least competent species in the tank, and we know by now that most carpet plants wear a dunce cap when it comes to CO2 uptake competence.
Cheers,
