FirstClassFish
Member
So essentially we just potentially end up with some waste by having to use larger amounts that we may not be able to utilize before expiration. That’s the only downside I guess?
I guess I’ll just have to get more tanks then.
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All in One -Fertilizer making- Recommendation!
- Thread starter mrtank50
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I guess I’ll just have to get more tanks then.
You dont have to waste the stock solutions, make sure to write down what concentration they contain, and then store them in the fridge. They will last a long time provided you put them in clean containers in the first place.So essentially we just potentially end up with some waste by having to use larger amounts that we may not be able to utilize before expiration. That’s the only downside I guess?
I guess I’ll just have to get more tanks then.
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
What @Hufsa says, you can potentially keep the stock solutions for all of eternity, as long as they are in stoppered containers.
cheers Darrel
FirstClassFish
Member
What would you recommend I use for measuring the micros with the least amount of serial dilution involved.
I was thinking a .001 scale would be good enough as if you work with them at higher weights they are pretty accurate. So I could start with higher amounts.
You mention not using a scale at all though? How do you go about it?
I’m looking at what to buy for measuring, mixing and for storage. Right now I have the 500ml plastic dosing bottles that you squeeze the desired amount into the top chamber. I’m wondering if 1000ml will be better?….you also mentioned having a stopper, so I didn’t know if you meant rubber or what so I would also be looking at not only dosage containers, but storage ones. Wondering if I should get bronze colored plastic or bottles as well.
Thanks
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
I just never work with very small weights or very small volumes. For dilution factors I tend to keep in factors of ten (orders of magnitude), like below.
Have a look at <"How do I calculate fertiliser dosage based on weight percentage?"> for the calculation for a specific example.
cheers Darrel
FirstClassFish
Member
This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but we still have to weigh down to at least the gram level. Most of what I’m reading states that the cheap .001 scales are really only accurate to 1-2 grams….so I guess those would be ok enough for this purpose. I certainly wouldn’t trust them to measure out the amount of nickel compound needed for a micro solution for 500 ml of water. I think doing those kinds of weights, even with a better scale, is pretty tough when you have drafts, temp fluctuations, etc….
What kind of bottle and stopper would I need for storage?
I’d like to do this, but in the end I don’t know if it might just be better to pay up for a trace mix from Tropica. We don’t have as good of choices for cheap stuff here as the UK seems too like TNC.
I can do the NPK and I already have Mg, FeDTPA and calcium. I figured I might as well try the grace too. I don’t have a ton of tanks and will probably only ever have one high tech, if that, so I guess the cost for micros bought commercially isn’t too bad.
Hi all,
Any robust leak-proof inert plastic (HDPE) container, with a screw lid, <"RS PRO 500ml PP Wide Neck Storage Bottle | RS"> would do.
cheers Darrel
Those are the main issues.
I use stoppered glass reagent bottles <"Clear Glass Reagent Bottle: 500ml - Pack of 10">, but mainly because we have hundreds of them in the lab.
Any robust leak-proof inert plastic (HDPE) container, with a screw lid, <"RS PRO 500ml PP Wide Neck Storage Bottle | RS"> would do.
Any trace mix you could get would do. <"Yara or Solufeed sell one"> @Happi may be able to advise you?
cheers Darrel
FirstClassFish
Member
Thanks and thanks for the links. You are the master of that. I’ve learned a lot from them over the years lurking, so thanks much.
Would a scale like that be good enough for serial dilution? I’m hoping it may also be good enough for medicine dosing. I can’t afford the prepackaged commercial stuff so am buying a few meds in relative bulk.
I don’t know how to start this serial dilution process. I’m a bit confused as you say you don’t use scales, but then mentioned one. We need to start somewhere, no?
As for the trace mixes, I’m in the US. We have a couple dry types, but when you are only taking such a small amount out of a pound of mix you have no idea what percentage of each fert you’re actually getting. That led to a few huge threads about recipes for micros on other forums, and then people tweaked them to be more appropriate for aquarium use, less copper, adding nickel, more iron, chelates, etc…
So the dry trace mixes have issues, which leaves expensive premixed. It seems in the UK you guys have two solid and inexpensive liquid mixes to use.
FirstClassFish
Member
For the medicine, perhaps some tiny measuring spoons to get to the mg level?
| Teaspoon quantities | ||||||||||||
I have calculated the amount of each chemical by weighing the amount using a standard teaspoon (5ml) which is available from most kitchen stores. Depending on where you obtain your chemicals from you may get slightly different weights. I get all mine from The Nutrient Company. Here are the weights I have used for each chemical using one teaspoon:
(nb.The tablespoon amount is calculated by multiplying the teaspoon amount by 3) | ||||||||||||
| Solubility's In Water | ||||||||||||
There are limits on how much of a salt can be dissolved in water. As this limit is reached it becomes increasingly difficult to dissolve more. If you are experiencing difficulties in dissolving any of the salts then try doubling the amount of water it is dissolved in. Below are the maximum solubility's of the various chemicals used in the calculator.
|
FirstClassFish
Member
That is very cool. I didn’t see that on his site as I was focused on the trace mixes…those are macros, so while good to know for my macros, I’m talking about micros.
Off the top of my head....I think Micro mix is about 6 grams...... I teaspoon!!
Hi all,
Modern electronic balances are all really good, even the cheap ones.
cheers Darrel
Yes, you need scales, but you can just use an <"ordinary electronic top balance"> (<"Kitchen scales">), rather than much more accurate (and expensive) 3 or 4 place lab. grade balances.
Modern electronic balances are all really good, even the cheap ones.
cheers Darrel
FirstClassFish
Member
Well, even the .001 gram ones are like 20 bucks…
I still don’t know how to get from here to there. I’ll work on it.
FirstClassFish
Member
Yeah, but a normal dose may be less than that. My smallest measuring spoon is 1/64. I’ve seen some smaller ones on Amazon. Are you suggesting I just assume an average weight for all the compounds and then scale down as far as I can reasonably with a tiny measuring spoon and perhaps a scale to see how close I can get, and then from there do the serial dilution?
Hi
Just make up 250ml of stock solution of Micro Fertilizer!
The vessel weights 3g.
That's about 1 level teaspoon of Micro/Trace powder per 250ml of water.
hoggie
Just make up 250ml of stock solution of Micro Fertilizer!
The vessel weights 3g.
That's about 1 level teaspoon of Micro/Trace powder per 250ml of water.
hoggie
@FirstClassFish sorry if I missed this but which gram scale are you going to be using? Which chemicals you have or going to buy for your micros?
Here is an example of how I make solution.
Here is an example of how I make solution.
Oldguy
Member
No need for that accuracy, go for a digital balance that is good for 0.1gm or at most 0.01g. Typically they go from zero to 200g or 250g. Mine cost me about £10 from ebay and has a tare option.
I typically weigh between 5 and 80g net. The plastic beaker I weigh into is about 35g, hence 115g gross.
As @dw1305 has said, serial dilution is the way to go. You can buy measuring cylinders but empty clean bottles are free.
For instance 1g in a quart, shake and brim a pint bottle. Eempty this pint into a second quart bottle and brim , you now have 0.5g in the second quart bottle and so on.
If possible get your head round metric units, grammes and litres. 1mg is very small and in a litre is 1 part per million (1ppm). For instance 1US gal is a little shy of 4litres but lets say its good enough.
1g in a gal bottle is 1g in 4litres is 0.25 g in a litre ie 250mg in a litre or 250ppm. Pour some of that solution into a pint bottle, still 250ppm, Then pour that pint into a quart bottle and make up the to the brim with water, you now have a 125ppm solution.
Remember your stock solutions are going to many grammes per litre because you will be adding a small volume of stock solution to a large volume tank/aquarium water.
For instance my stock macro ferts are 80g pot nitrate, 8g pot dihydrgen phosphate and 2g pot sulphate. Dissolve and make up to 2litres (empty drinks bottle). Add 100ml to my tank on alternate days.
Trace/ micro ferts a bit more involved: 8.5g of '13FeEDTA' and 11.0g of 'TEMag'. [These are the commercial trace mixes I went for about 20yrs ago and still have plenty left, in those day it was sold in large bags]. Dissolve in water and make up to 5litres of Stock Solution A. Then 500ml of Stock Solution A and make up to 5litres of Stock Solution B.
10ml of Stock Solution B per UK gal yields: 0.1ppm of Fe, 0.01ppm B,. 0.01ppm Mn, 0.005ppm Cu and so the list goes on and on.
The point is that you can get tiny amounts of substances by weighing out small amounts 19.5gms (approx 28g to the oz for comparison.)
Volume of my tank, guestimated, quantities of ferts that I really add, guestimated. I have given myself wriggle room with my dilutions. Watch the critters and watch the plants. Its an Estimated Index.
I hope that this has been of some use. (Its all about ratios and a bit a High School chemistry)
Hi all,
If weighing small amount is problematic? Don't do it, find a solution that <"negates that as a necessity">. Serial dilution does away with the requirement for accurate weighing, allows you to use kitchen scales and vastly reduces the margin for error, it is just a <"win win scenario">.
cheers Darrel
Exactly that, it is the <"coffee, not the froth"> argument. You can apply it to <"biological filtration">, <"light spectra"> and <"fertilisers"> etc.
If weighing small amount is problematic? Don't do it, find a solution that <"negates that as a necessity">. Serial dilution does away with the requirement for accurate weighing, allows you to use kitchen scales and vastly reduces the margin for error, it is just a <"win win scenario">.
Simple, and good advice. It is <"just a KISS solution">, no weighing of very small weights, or pipetting of very small volumes, and <"your problem goes away">.
A new one for the UKAPS lexicon of dosing methods, the "Guesstimated Index". I'm already a <"committed convert">.
cheers Darrel
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