AIO EI Fertilizer Guidance please?

[bazz]

Yeah, I get that. When you said 'Iron will react with the Phosphate', with regards to dosing macro and micro together, I was just curious why it wouldn't react at any time because there's normally some amount of Phosphate in the tank water.

As I said earlier I'm no biologist or expert but to my understanding Iron is usually the casualty in the conflict. For eg, some folks front load their Macros and daily dose Micro because Iron is the element which is not going to be around for too long before forming insoluble compounds with the Phosphate that plants cannot uptake. It gets a lot more complicated than this when Redox and soft water come into the equation but I'll stop there as I'm starting to get in over my head.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Yeah, I get that. When you said 'Iron will react with the Phosphate', with regards to dosing macro and micro together, I was just curious why it wouldn't react at any time because there's normally some amount of Phosphate in the tank water.

That is actually the reason they add phosphate (PO4---) <"to tap water">, to precipitate any heavy metal (and also iron (Fe++(+)) ions. In wastewater phosphate stripping a continual stream of ferric chloride (FeCl3) is added to the wastewater to generate insoluble iron phosphate complexes that then are removed as a solid <"Phosphorus Removal | Veolia Water Technologies UK">.

Cheers Darrel

 

[bazz]

If you do 3 and 3 and take a day off won't the plants suffer from the lack of nutrients on the day off?

Not really, just find a dosing regime that suits you and your tank requirements, for me stability is the key factor in this instance so once found stick with it, as long as your targets are in by the end of the week. Then you can make incremental changes if something is lacking or overabundant.

 

[Mark.A]

Thanks a lot for the help everyone. It's much appreciated.

For eg, some folks front load their Macros and daily dose Micro because Iron is the element which is not going to be around for too long before forming insoluble compounds with the Phosphate that plants cannot uptake.

By 'front load' do you mean dosing all the weeks macro nutrients the first day so you can then dose the micro nutrients the other six days of the week? Is this as effective, macro nutrient wise? Are there any down sides to doing it this way?

With what's been said about the Fe - if it's harder to keep Fe in the tank water over time then would it be better to dose it more frequently? I'm going to be using a doser so I could just as easily dose a third of the daily micro nutrients three times a day, if that would help keep the Fe levels up better over the day?

 

[bazz]

By 'front load' do you mean dosing all the weeks macro nutrients the first day so you can then dose the micro nutrients the other six days of the week?

Correct.

Is this as effective, macro nutrient wise? Are there any down sides to doing it this way?

I don't know for sure but I have heard/read on here that some advise it's a more stable environment without the TDS fluctuating through the week plus other factors.

I'm going to be using a doser so I could just as easily dose a third of the daily micro nutrients three times a day, if that would help keep the Fe levels up better over the day?

I can't see a problem with this method just less Iron more often but with less I would imagine it would precipitate out more easily. I'm beginning to think you maybe overthinking things, as long as your target ppm is attained by several doses of Micro over the week dosed away from Phosphate I'm sure things will be fine. Again I'm not an Scientist, Biologist or expert but I would imagine plants do not need a constant supply of Iron but will snatch a bit along with other Micros when available.

 

[Mark.A]

Thanks a lot.

I'm beginning to think you maybe overthinking things

Who me? Overthinking things?😯Never! 🤣😉

🙄

 

[Mark.A]

The only question I have left unanswered now is about the Aqua Plants Care CSM+B, re-posting it here:

Is the recommended dose of the CSM+B Trace Elements mix, on the Aqua Plants Care website, what I should actually be dosing? For reference their website says:

DOSING: 2 ml a day per 100L fish tank

10g CSM+B mix with 500ml water, 1ml solution per 100 l of tank water yields a concentration of 0.015ppm Fe

So for my tank, if I presume about 600 litres actual water volume, then that works out at 12ml per day but, according to their website, that is to reach a daily Fe concentration of 0.03ppm. If I multiply that by seven then that gives a weekly Fe ppm of 0.21, which is less than half of the 0.468 ppm weekly concentration of Fe that the IFC calculator says the Aqua Plants Care CSM+B has.

I'm not seeing how this works out or maybe I'm not understanding the correlation? Can anyone set me straight here? Do I need to double the recommended dose?

To further add more confusion to this - there is also a 'Trace Elements Refill' on their website that has the following info, which has different values again:



Neither of the options available have values that match up with what's in the IFC though so I'm not sure which I am supposed to go off or use?

 

[Zeus.]

1, Yes you are correct, I've made up 4 weeks supply in various strengths (including full EI in the past) for the last 18 years or so and never encountered any mould or falling out of suspension of both macro and micro (separate bottles) using salts and commercial micro.
2, The problem is Iron will react with the Phosphate forming insoluble compounds and will rapidly become plant unavailable (I'm not a biologist if anyone wants to chip in). Again I dose alternate days but if I had to do both in one I would dose macro at lights on and micro a couple of hours before lights off in the hope the plants can grab a bit of iron et al whilst still assimilating. This is just me though others may have differing opinions or even experience.
3, @Hanuman @Zeus. ?

Excellent 18 years and no mould- freash batch every 4 weeks is the key

No active High tech tank ATM, however I would go for front loading Macros after WC 'dry dosing if masses suitable'. Then dosing Micros throughout the week daily or every other day. Time of day would depend on Fe Chelate being used, dosing at lights off does prevent the light breaking down some Fe chelates. If Light sensitive daily dosing is a better option IMO If using auto dosser then daily is the obvious option.

When I was dosing using urea prills for NO3 I was dosing about every 12 mins - Why because it prevent an Nitrite spike and with my DIY auto dosser and PLC it was easy.

N.B. Urea prills should not be front loaded - ever IMO

 

[Zeus.]

The only question I have left unanswered now is about the Aqua Plants Care CSM+B, re-posting it here:

Is the recommended dose of the CSM+B Trace Elements mix, on the Aqua Plants Care website, what I should actually be dosing?

The website is guidance only. If your going down the EI route set the target/regime in IFC and the IFC will calculate the correct mass of Micro salt mix to hit the target.

Aqua Plants Care CSM+B isnt cheap esp with 680L tank. I would look at Solufeds trace mixes as they do offer great valve for money and last a long time. Plants don't care about brand of salt

Why you only dosing 17ml ? I would round it up to 20ml as least. I was a fan of dosing 100ml daily - bit of an auto top up

 

[Mark.A]

The website is guidance only. If your going down the EI route set the target/regime in IFC and the IFC will calculate the correct mass of Micro salt mix to hit the target.

Aqua Plants Care CSM+B isnt cheap esp with 680L tank. I would look at Solufeds trace mixes as they do offer great valve for money and last a long time. Plants don't care about brand of salt

I've been looking at the Solufeeds 'TEC Sodium Free' trace mix and I've copied the values from it in the IFC DIYTraceCalculator page:



The instructions on what to add are for separate chemicals though. If I buy the Solufeeds 'TEC Sodium Free' trace mix then how do I know how much of that combined mix to add to my 500ml container?

Why you only dosing 17ml ? I would round it up to 20ml as least. I was a fan of dosing 100ml daily - bit of an auto top up

That was my earlier attempt at figuring it out. Below is what I have in the IFC Dosing Regime part now, I'm currently thinking to front load the macros and dose the micros the other six days.



If I'm front loading the macros, just after the weekly water change, can I just dry dose them then? Is that just a case of throwing them all, together, in the tank after the WC? Anything else to know? The tank will be very heavily planted from the off. I'm currently looking at £800+ on plants to start with.

 

[Zeus.]

I've copied the values from it in the IFC DIYTraceCalculator page

Not sure why your using the DIY trace page - that's for making Micro ferts from scratch

I would advise using the Target Calculator page



Comparing the two Micro mix's they are not identical - however they have the same order of magnitude of nutrients. Plus if your planning on EI dosing you will be dosing in abundance so either product will hit the mark IMO

If I'm front loading the macros, just after the weekly water change, can I just dry dose them then?

Just toss them in whilst adding the water

Just set frequency to 1 for Macros in IFC -


don't get too stressed about accurate weight call them 30g, 3g, 15g, 65grams respectively

as when those masses are added to the DIYCalculator we get



Which all all intents and purpose is EI dosing

In UK we don't need to add Ca as there's plenty in the tap water

 

[Mark.A]

Not sure why your using the DIY trace page - that's for making Micro ferts from scratch

That would be me not knowing what the hell I'm doing.😂

Just set frequency to 1 for Macros in IFC -
View attachment 225707

don't get too stressed about accurate weight call them 30g, 3g, 15g, 65grams respectively

as when those masses are added to the DIYCalculator we get

View attachment 225708

Which all all intents and purpose is EI dosing

In UK we don't need to add Ca as there's plenty in the tap water

I've tried doing that:


My target is EI Dosing Mid.

Then I added the dry dosing weights from there to the DIY Calculator page, but I get this:



Not sure what's gone wrong there but the results are a lot less than the EI Dosing Mid levels.

 

[Mark.A]

Never mind. I figured it out now.

Those results were off because it was looking at the whole 500ml container rather than just the one 120ml weekly dose. If I change the container size to 120ml then it gives me the 100% EI Dosing Mid levels.

 

[Zeus.]

Those results were off because it was looking at the whole 500ml container rather than just the one 120ml weekly dose

Easy mistake, the request weight and dry dosing weight need to be the same in the DIYCalculatorto check front loading with dry salts

 

[Mark.A]

Can someone tell me if my original thoughts on dosing to EI Mid level were good or not? I just chose EI Mid because I'll be having 95% low energy, slow growing plants and only dosing CO2 to a low, background level so I figured I wouldn't need full EI levels. Is that correct thinking? Is EI Mid the right target level for what I'm trying to do or should I still be aiming for full EI levels?

 

[hypnogogia]

If you’re low energy and low CO2 you won’t need full EI. Ultimately your plants will tell you if they’re getting enough.

 

[Mark.A]

If you’re low energy and low CO2 you won’t need full EI. Ultimately your plants will tell you if they’re getting enough.

Thanks, that's what I figured.