UKAPS, transparency and the future.

[ostler]

These are all good points folk have raised. And yes the forum definitely needs to move on. But it should have done so already weeks ago. @Onoma1 is right, if there had been full and rapid financial transparency we wouldn’t still be here discussing it. And I’ve a feeling this will continue to haunt the forum indefinitely if that doesn’t happen.

It’s really a question of trust, credibility, and confidence. There is no reason whatsoever not to have had, by now, legitimate professionally audited accounts going back 7 years. If there is nothing to hide, what’s the problem?

At some point UKPS is going to run out of money. Few folk, if any, will take a forum with an unresolved financial history seriously. Doesn’t matter if it changes governance and there is clear blue water between old and new. And especially if the same people are involved in setting it up. I would have especially thought that it’s in the interests of the few members that had direct contact with Dan to set the record straight once and for all. If only to prove all was above board for their own sake and peace of mind.

Future investors, both member donators and corporate sponsors are going to want to see evidence of responsible fiscal behaviour and governance. So far I’m not seeing that much, and some behaviours leave a lot to be desired. Not least telling members they can request for their account to be deleted if they disagree with the official narrative. And deleting or banning decenting voices, especially if their concerns are legitimate. Not a good start to to a “true” membership society.

What you’ve also got to consider here is that many of the members posting on this thread are perhaps among the more confident and vociferous of us. There are other members, perhaps the silent majority, that have no voice here and are quietly concerned too. Please let’s not forget them. Ultimately how the forum moves forward is up to you all.

 

[Andy Pierce]

is there any way to to archive the content of ukaps.

Not necessary. It has already been fully scraped by ChatGPT.

 

[AverageWhiteBloke]

Wow! Just Wow! I'll have to catch up with what's been happening I guess as I've been away for some time. To throw a suggestion out there, could the site be set up as a non-profit charity, with any funds outside of running costs be donated to ecological projects?

 

[ElleDee]

@LondonDragon, yeah, I've been considering helping, but I am trying to get a better idea what I'd be walking into. And I'm not trying to give anyone left in the game grief, least of all you. But communication has not been great and I don't think it's out of line to look for clarity about what is going on.

Iain laid out the objectives, but not the actions towards the long term. Maybe the answer is not much because it isn't clear there's enough manpower.

I have barely participated in these discussions because there seemed to be too many cooks and the staff really, really wanted the users to stay out of it. But now there aren't enough cooks...

Few folk, if any, will take a forum with an unresolved financial history seriously. Doesn’t matter if it changes governance and there is clear blue water between old and new. And especially if the same people are involved in setting it up. I would have especially thought that it’s in the interests of the few members that had direct contact with Dan to set the record straight once and for all. If only to prove all was above board for their own sake and peace of mind.

I'm not sure this is true. I think a lot of people just want UKAPS to continue and as long as it does, then it's money well spent. Obviously that's not going to be enough for everyone and I understand the reasons for that, but as a practical matter nobody saw any financial information for years and it wasn't a problem.

What you’ve also got to consider here is that many of the members posting on this thread are perhaps among the more confident and vociferous of us. There are other members, perhaps the silent majority, that have no voice here and are quietly concerned too. Please let’s not forget them. Ultimately how the forum moves forward is up to you all.

I do know for a fact this is true, unfortunately. I don't know if it's the majority, but there's definitely people who might be inclined to be involved but have found the whole thing very alienating and are choosing to step away.

 

[G H Nelson]

Dear Members
Please be mindful that the UKaps is running on very few staff/mods at this particular time.
The few mods available with Paulo's assistance are trying to keep the site running smoothly.

Please refrain from re-posting past issues that go over old ground, as we try to move forward, I know it will be difficult for some but it is not helping the situation.

 

[Surya]

Would there be scope to use some of the existing funds towards paying a small group of experienced / willing mods for a chunk of their time, and/or members with specific professional expertise, to set up the structures described? And then perhaps pay one or two people longer term for X hours a week to keep the site running, funded by ongoing sponsorship and donations?

I know I would support this as a member. I am sure most / all of us would, with transparency. Certainly I would rather this than UKAPS collapses (in which case what's the point of the funds...?)

Just an idea.

 

[ostler]

No worries @G H Nelson. I get the distinct impression that most involved in this discussion think I’m barking up the wrong tree anyway. And that’s fine. I just have a couple of small points to make, if you’ll allow Graham, and then I’ll bow out of the conversation.

@ElleDee, that’s fine as well. Just wanted you all to be aware of the potential pitfalls of not seriously considering a professional audit. For sure we all have opinions. But I hope there is one thing we can all agree on at least. And that is there is a clear moral and legal way forward. There isn’t really a grey area nor ambiguity as far as that is concerned.

Also, all please try and be mindful that his isn’t a private discussion among UKPAS members. This site gets millions of views a month from all 4 corners of the globe. Last December for instance it got nearly 20 million hits. I should imagine that with the intrigue surrounding this issue it’s achieving equally high numbers. The world is watching.

Either way, I wish all the best of luck whichever path you decide leads in the right direction.

Tim

 

[hypnogogia]

Not necessary. It has already been fully scraped by ChatGPT.

Not in a way that makes it possible to read threads and journals from beginning to end though.

 

[Hanuman]

almost the entire mod team has left because of this vitriol and the insistence of a conspiracy

Please be mindful that the UKaps is running on very few staff/mods at this particular time.

Only person from the moderation team that is not in the staff directory anymore is Geoffrey. Other than Paulo and Tim, who else has left?

 

[Hanuman]

@John q @Andy Pierce @hypnogogia It's already archived in Wayback Machine

 

[G H Nelson]

Only person from the moderation team that is not in the staff directory anymore is Geoffrey. Other than Paulo and Tim, who else has left?

Previously there were other mods recruited by Paulo several years ago, but they have left of their own accord.
Therefore that leaves the active mods like myself, Ian, Ady, Iain, Stu, and Geoff.
Mods go on holiday, family health issues occur.....etc.

 

[Hanuman]

Previously there were other mods recruited by Paulo several years ago, but they have left of their own accord.

I have looked all the way back at old archives of UKAPS dating mid 2021 and I could not find from that point forward any new moderator. The only 2 moderators wich are not part of the team since then are Edvet and Hogan who left somewhere early in 2021. Did some moderators operate without the "moderator's" badge?

Mods go on holiday, family health issues occur.....etc.

That's totally understandable and absolutely nothing wrong with that. Perhaps this is a misunderstanding, but Iain clearly states that most mods have left their moderator's position because of the current situation which clearly does not translates that way in the staff member directory/list. Only Geoffrey has left (so far), presumably because of all this situation. Am I missing something here?

 

[G H Nelson]

No mods operated without a Mods Badge, as far as I know, the other mods vacated before 2021.

 

[Wookii]

I'm trying to stay out of this debate to be honest (though I have offered to assist where I can), but for me there are two pertinent areas to address:

1. What is going to happen going forward:

• set up of correct legal structure, with appropriate legal an financial reporting
• hand over of all existing rights from the previous rights holders
• set-up of new bank accounts and Paypal plus transfer of existing Society funds
• determination of existing team structure and responsibilities etc

This is the most important area to deal with, and should all be fairly easy to arrange (though there may well be costs involved unless assistance can be obtained from professional solicitors on a pro-bono basis), if appropriate voluntary help can be acquired. I think all other issues, including those that Tim has raised, should be put on a back burned until this has been resolved and the forum is functioning as required.

Then and only then can issue 2 can be resolved:

2. What has happened historically:
- there will be no escaping what has happened historically from a legal or financial perspective. Whoever steps in as lead on this will need to demand delivery of the prior 7 years bank statements for the old Society bank account - whilst it would be nice to draw a metaphorical line in the sand, organisations like HMRC might not be so forgiving if the transfer to the new entity is deemed to be a transfer of a going concern. It will be essential that the new entity is able to make voluntary disclosures of its prior 7 years financial history (assuming these have not been reported so far) if deemed necessary. HMRC tax payments, charges and fines have the real potential to wipe out any funds already accrued if this isn't addressed correctly and proactively.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm happy to accept a statement by a majority of the old moderators that they accept the financial past and draw a line.

I have no official say in this, but surely that is the voice of reason?

I made it simple for a decade, now this will be super complicated to pull off in terms of a society, I managed the Team, I managed the forum Admin duties, I managed the Server, the Mods looked out for issues on froum, ensured posting was adequate and members were in line with our policies, and we dealt with them. The members created the content and most of the time self moderated the forum anyway!

is there any way to to archive the content of ukaps.

@LondonDragon has done an amazing job and I'll be honest one of my main motivations for wishing the forum to continue is that I owe the forum a lot, not in financial terms, but in the platform it has afforded me, and the knowledge I have gained from our members.

This will be my last post on UKAPS for the foreseeable future....

And that is very sad, because Paulo has made this technically possible.

The bottom line is this shouldn't have escalated, full, rapid and clear financial transparency could have shown this to be just a storm in a teacup. The lack of it doesn't inspire confidence.

If you don't accept what has been provided, just ask the team to delete your account and move on! I think everyone has better things to get on with in their lives!! If this keeps going as it is and for member(s) that seems to just want Dan's head on a stick, then its a lost cause and then who is going to want to volunteer anyway?

I'm not even saying that it's unimportant per se, I just can't get worked up when I haven't seen any real evidence of maleficence.

I'd agree with @ElleDee personally I'm more than happy to accept that there hasn't been any financial impropriety and that the money that should have gone to UKAPS has gone to UKAPS.

@Onoma1 is right, if there had been full and rapid financial transparency we wouldn’t still be here discussing it.

And what useful purpose is discussing it going to achieve? Let us draw a line under it and move on. @Wookii has laid out the legal situation, we need to comply with that and then move forward.

I'm not sure this is true. I think a lot of people just want UKAPS to continue and as long as it does, then it's money well spent. Obviously that's not going to be enough for everyone and I understand the reasons for that, but as a practical matter nobody saw any financial information for years and it wasn't a problem.

That is also my position: "I think a lot of people just want UKAPS to continue and as long as it does, then it's money well spent."

cheers Darrel

 

[Oldguy]

What ever the structure of a 'future' UKAPS keep it as simple as possible and avoid as far as possible parasitic costs such as charity red tape, insurance and Company House costs.
For example if I go for a walk, I email/telephone friends and say when and where I am going and if they would like to join me they would be welcome.
If the same walk went through the walking group that I am a member of (it has a constitution, officers and require insurance the cost which is crippling). Oh and the people who might be joining me would be same people.

I joined this forum and stayed with it because it was very informative and friendly and people wrote using grammar and did not use the 'F' word as a substitute for comers. Unlike some car forums which are a disgrace but are dipped into out of necessity.

 

[tam]

I've run big forum, bigger than this and seen societies set up and down. My (unasked for) advice is that although setting up societies and committees sounds like a great way to safe guard things, actually it's really difficult to get enough people to committ consistantly to the formal structures that comes with all that. You need AGMs, chairpeople, treasurer, minutes, account etc. etc. as soon as you go formal, you get complicated.

I never assumed that society in the title meant the forum was set up in a formal manner. I assumed, like the majority of forums based on a shared passion, there was someone(s) that had put the time in to set it up and from there mods volunteer time to help running and people offer help towards the costs of servers and software.

I agree a seperate bank account is a helpful thing - I don't know if that was in place or not, that's how I always did mine money going in/out of that. If only for the person running things to keep on top of whether there is enough to cash to keep things going. I frequently topped mine up with my personal funds when the money from sponsor/advertising/donations were enough - which is more the direction these things go that making a fortune. Honestly I'd be impressed with anyone making enough money from a forum these days to in any way compensate for the time spent on it.

The only part of the situation I agree with is that if a mod raised a concern to me I'd be happy to show the costs/income, but I can also understand being upset about someone questioning your intergrity, which is how it would feel no matter how well intentioned. Tracking cash flow seems like the only big complaint and I would tend to look at solutions that just targetted that.

This is a rather long way around to say, my advice would be pick an admin, pick some mods (if you need more than you have), use a seperate bank account and keep the mods updated on the cash flow situation as needed e.g. are there enough funds to cover expenses and otherwise let things tick over. I would predict that if you start getting formal you'll struggle to maintain it - for something this size it just adds more work than it has benefit.

Finally, I know how much work moderating a forum is behind the scenes, all have you that have or are doing it have done an excellent job. I would say this is one of the best moderated forums (from a user perspective) I'd come across.

 

[AlecF]

It may be a small annual fee is needed in order to pay one administrator to do what is required. I don't know if that's possible. It's also useful and sobering to have Wooki's summary, and realise that 7 years past accounts are needed, however much we state our trust. The level of stress and upset that mods have expressed, and the lack of people who feel able to volunteer, does perhaps suggest a need for a part-time admin to manage the transition.

 

[Zeus.]

I've run big forum, bigger than this and seen societies set up and down. My (unasked for) advice is that although setting up societies and committees sounds like a great way to safe guard things, actually it's really difficult to get enough people to committ consistantly to the formal structures that comes with all that. You need AGMs, chairpeople, treasurer, minutes, account etc. etc. as soon as you go formal, you get complicated.

I never assumed that society in the title meant the forum was set up in a formal manner. I assumed, like the majority of forums based on a shared passion, there was someone(s) that had put the time in to set it up and from there mods volunteer time to help running and people offer help towards the costs of servers and software.

I agree a seperate bank account is a helpful thing - I don't know if that was in place or not, that's how I always did mine money going in/out of that. If only for the person running things to keep on top of whether there is enough to cash to keep things going. I frequently topped mine up with my personal funds when the money from sponsor/advertising/donations were enough - which is more the direction these things go that making a fortune. Honestly I'd be impressed with anyone making enough money from a forum these days to in any way compensate for the time spent on it.

The only part of the situation I agree with is that if a mod raised a concern to me I'd be happy to show the costs/income, but I can also understand being upset about someone questioning your intergrity, which is how it would feel no matter how well intentioned. Tracking cash flow seems like the only big complaint and I would tend to look at solutions that just targetted that.

This is a rather long way around to say, my advice would be pick an admin, pick some mods (if you need more than you have), use a seperate bank account and keep the mods updated on the cash flow situation as needed e.g. are there enough funds to cover expenses and otherwise let things tick over. I would predict that if you start getting formal you'll struggle to maintain it - for something this size it just adds more work than it has benefit.

Finally, I know how much work moderating a forum is behind the scenes, all have you that have or are doing it have done an excellent job. I would say this is one of the best moderated forums (from a user perspective) I'd come across.

Sounds very good (unasked for advice) to me, very similar to how the gaming community ran there forums and servers I was a part off. We all 'chipped' in when needed, complete transparency. Back end was easy to run as most of us was competent with software and config files etc - so we all took turns ( I did my watch) at the back end and updating setting up game servers and mods/updates. One of the members was an accountant and a couple of members was 'root users'.

 

[castle]

I have messaged Iain that I am willing to step up for some responsibility within ukaps. I’m a code guy, so would prefer tech stuff as a side. I try not to offer myself up freely, as time is so so limited, but that said I would help out where I could. I wouldn’t want paying 👌

is there any way to to archive the content of ukaps.

Backups are already taken. Archiving is a little more tricky, because who owns the copyrights to the content on the forum? I can’t find any t&cs for that. How does the archive stay available forever? Way back machine is not to be relied on. Ideally, we could wiki our journals, but still there are challenges.

If ukaps ever did implode, I’d certainly help phoenix it into a wiki. With chat features ❤️


An excellent post by @tam and @zeus; like them I recognised the possible problems and have been involved with a community before.

To all the community:

Let me be honest, and please don’t see this as slight on me, it’s just the position I’m in. I wanted to purchase ukaps.

I would have then immediately seen it as a ukaps loan. I would have opened the accounts up, archived the content. I would have ignored the current financial accounts and moved forward. I then, would have offered it up like so; yearly accounts, and very soon a profit share agreement. For simplistic sense, you buy into my loan for a % returned as dividends. I wouldn’t care where you are in the world. There’s a lot lot lot more to it, but that’s the simplistic view. A society relies on too many people, and I knew it was going to be hard.

I didn’t really want that headache tho.

I just knew, as soon as this kicked off, the branch had snapped and the forum was not going to be the same. There is too much animosity. Only with a clear change in direction could it really move forward.

However, Iain has show there is a new direction. We’ve got to accept the new are the new, and give them a chance. Else, ukaps is kinda done. If not enough people are stepping up, then what’s the next idea?

I have a great amount of respect for the humans in the forum, while I have never really spoken with mods directly they seem like a well rounded fair bunch. I have met a few of you in person to, just no, I did not introduce myself as castle.

Anyway, that’s off my chest.

I don’t really need to see historical money, I just need to see it present onwards.

FYI; ai can moderate forums pretty well these days, so I could build that bot pretty fast 👍