UKAPS, transparency and the future.

[ostler]

And whilst I’m on the subject

f@#k, its almost like you should have said this to the ukaps team before setting fire to it Tim

Thanks for mentioning that Iain. You really are too kind. But I couldn’t possibly claim all the credit. I think that mostly belongs to Dan, with your help of course. And to be frank no one bothered to ask me. If I remember correctly. You were both busy banning and deleting me.

 

[Ady34]

And whilst I’m on the subject

Thanks for mentioning that Iain. You really are too kind. But I couldn’t possibly claim all the credit. I think that mostly belongs to Dan, with your help of course. And to be frank no one bothered to ask me. If I remember correctly. You were both busy banning and deleting me.

I feel you are simply antagonising now.
Perhaps stop trying to continue provoking a situation in public to get a response which has no benefit to the forum moving forwards.
You have made your feelings perfectly clear and also stated that you were infact going to disengage from this thread.
Everybody knows how you feel about the situation. You actually initially left of your own accord, then re-engaged with the forum under new accounts in a completely negative and damaging way so were then banned. Then you were reinstated and continued in the same vein, and are still doing so.
We are trying to remedy the situation as a team, a depleted and busy one hence the time taken that was asked for.
I kindly ask that you stop trying to bait the team, our interests only lay on trying to salvage the forum, not conspire against anyone but figure this out. You and others do not trust, I do, the forum ran for a very long time in a developing and community based way. Upgrades were continually made to make this forum what it was. You were a huge part of the recent UKAPS years which were hugely valued by all, but then failed in one vital aspect of being part of a team in that you did not include us in the actions you took. How active we are or not, a discussion was never had and many heads are better than one. I’m sure the outcome could have been very different moving forwards for all concerned had this been actioned differently.
I know you will have a different view, but that is how I feel about it.
Thank you.
Ady.

 

[richardcunliffe]

Hadn't seen Ady's post when I wrote this..

All right chaps. We'd like to move forward here.

Tim, I can genuinely see both sides of this struggle. And I believe so can many others. Personally, I think the call for transparency is good, and should not have been censored. At the same time, a forum is about the worst place that something like this can be dealt with calmly and rationally. Or personal data shared. Simultaneously, it is the only place we have. Now people on both sides are hurting but this thread is not for venting or restating pain points. Please.

You are all generous, intelligent people who like a nice aquatic plant. You want the same things. The future and the past can be different issues if you let them. The direction we are headed is good. Simplicity is good and clarity on the identity and management of UKAPS to its members is arguably the only thing that has been missing

 

[foxfish]

So basically there has been a train of events leading up to this critical situation!

(1) A thread was created and It was suggested that certain donated funds could not be accounted for via the information available to the new administrator.

(2) The response to this was quite dramatic, resulting in a sort of private forum take over in the running!

(3) Certain long term staff members gave their opinions and pointed out the huge commitments they had given to the forum completely free of charge but the question still remained, where did the members donations actually go?

(4) Now we are several weeks on and many critical staff members have left (or no longer posting) as well as many influential members of the community.

I can completely understand why members want to know what happened to the money they gave in good faith to the forum.
I find it disappointing that some of the founder members cannot open up with more information, that would help clear up this disappointing mess!
Giving grief to the few remaining staff is surely not a positive approach?
I dont doubt the present staff are trying their very best to soldier through this situation and I thank every one of them.

So we are left in a very difficult place, it seems the forum is hanging on a thread, what staff we have left need our support and encouragement if we want the forum to continue.
However I would still like to know where the donated money ended up?

Overall I find this somewhat embarrassing situation very unfortunate but I also hope the proposed temporary forum shut down can help the staff find a way forward…..

 

[castle]

So, can we all just beg @LondonDragon to come back and be the overseer of change?

See him as the “transitioner”

 

[ostler]

feel you are simply antagonising now.
Perhaps stop trying to continue provoking a situation in public to get a response which has no benefit to the forum moving forwards.
You have made your feelings perfectly clear and also stated that you were infact going to disengage from this thread.
Everybody knows how you feel about the situation. You actually initially left of your own accord, then re-engaged with the forum under new accounts in a completely negative and damaging way so were then banned. Then you were reinstated and continued in the same vein, and are still doing so

Thanks Ady for bringing this up. I was banned, twice, for trying to expose the truth about the accounts, which apparently the rest of the membership had no right to see. This is a forum where members are supposed to be able to discuss issues in an adult way to reach a consensus. How can folk reach an informed consensus it they don't have all the information?

We are trying to remedy the situation as a team, a depleted and busy one hence the time taken that was asked for.

Yes I can see that in your own way you are doing your best, but I don't think banning another member for a difference of opinion is justifiable. It's franky totalitarian governance.

I kindly ask that you stop trying to bait the team, our interests only lay on trying to salvage the forum, not conspire against anyone but figure this out. You and others do not trust, I do, the forum ran for a very long time in a developing and community based way.

I'm not baiting anyone Ady, I'm simply responding to pretty damning accusations. But I guess I'm not allowed to do that either. Have you asked Iain to refrain from posting inflammatory statements to begin with?

but then failed in one vital aspect of being part of a team in that you did not include us in the actions you took.

Frankly Ady that's risible. You only used the forum to promote your own scaping. I don't remember much in the way of moderating being done. And that's fine, but please don't claim to have been part of a team you rarely contributed to. That's insulting.

You were a huge part of the recent UKAPS years which were hugely valued by all, but then failed in one vital aspect of being part of a team in that you did not include us in the actions you took. How active we are or not, a discussion was never had and many heads are better than one.

I told you all before, this discovery was shocking and legally there is always the chance that anyone involved could be found guilty by association or complicit, these are actual legal precedents. I didn't want to involve you for legal and moral reasons. It would have put you all in a very difficult position, especially as you're all old mates with Dan. Moreover, it would have been my head on the legal chopping block and therefore it was my decision to make and mine alone.

How active we are or not, a discussion was never had and many heads are better than one. I’m sure the outcome could have been very different moving forwards for all concerned had this been actioned differently.

How true, that is Ady, but things are always clearer in retrospect. If I'd known that this blahblahblahblah storm would result and the forum would be vulnerable to all sorts of stupid I'd have done things very differently, but consulting you all still wouldn't be one of them.

You were a huge part of the recent UKAPS years which were hugely valued by all

Thanks for saying that Ady it means a lot. When I became Admin the forum was on its knees and dying. Numbers were well down and there were only 2 sponsors left and they hadn't paid up in a couple of years. I'm not complaining, I took on the challenge happily, and gradually, obviously along with Paulo, we managed to turn the forum around. Like I mentioned before it's become a tour de force, attracting many millions of hits a month. It then got to the stage sponsors were volunteering to support the forum.

However, there is one aspect to all this that folk are either unaware of or underestimate, @foxfish touched on it above, and that is the culture that a few key members have created over the years. And it's the main reason why UKAPS has thrived when all other similar forums have gone to the wall. It's just an opinion but I think it's vitally important to UKAPS going forward and I'm not seeing much evidence that it's easily transferable.

This especially so since some of them have stopped posting since I exposed the lack of financial transparency and subsequent reluctance to hold Dan to account by the remaining mod team, claiming to have the forum's best interests at heart. Despite that, I've laid out a clear and easy way forward but this also seems to have been dismissed out of hand.

 

[ostler]

So, can we all just beg @LondonDragon to come back and be the overseer of change?

See him as the “transitioner”

Don't worry Castle, he's still very much in the driving seat. In fact none of you need to worry about the forum folding. He'll never let that happen. Neither will I if it comes to that.