Plants failing to grow with diy dosing and co2

[deeproots]

Hi all. As per the description I'm really struggling with my DIY aio fertiliser and plant growth. I can't even grow moss!!. I have a 280 litre tank with co2 at about 2bps. I've built an all in one using the ifc calculator and I'm dosing 12ml daily. I first set it up to match thrive + but my nitrates were showing close to zero after a week of dosing according to my test kit. I revised it by doubling the potassium nitrate and ran it for a few more weeks but the plants are still refusing to grow apart from the Amazon sword and the java fern. I have:

Pogostemon helferi
Taiwan moss
Bacopa salzmanni purple
Althernanthera sessilis
Royal blood red

I've switched to EI mid plus some extra iron from chempak so nothing should be short but I'm still seeing almost zero growth. Substrate is black fine gravel (I have stratum under my substrate "hill" on the last pic) and I've had no problems growing in the past with commercial fertilisers. Pics attached including my ifc page.

My lighting is fluval plant 3 59w plus a nicrew on about 10 hours a day.

Water is 50% rain water and 50% hard tap water.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[Connswater]

My 'pennyworth'. I'm a high light person, I like my plants to grow fast and out-compete algae, and produce leaves fully down the stalk, high light doesn't work for shade plants in my main tank.

I personally on a 280 litre tank would be tempted to use three one hundred watt floodlights, about a foot above the water level, for 8 hours a day and make sure my CO2 was 20+ ppm (as many bubbles per second when lights on, as is needed to hit the target) when plant photosynthesis is robust after some hours with CO2 and full light you will get vigorous pearling, the latter is not necessary, but if you get pearling you will get good growth, and, if you think it is a bit too much you can dial back either on light intensity (by raising the lights or turning one off) or duration (but I find 6 hours the absolute lowest limit to sustain plants). I'm a lean dose bloke so I'll let others advise on nutrients.

I've only been able to grow shade loving plants and floating plants with Nicrew lights, crypts and Java fern and salvinia. I've never used the Fluval but at 59 watts it can't be producing a lot of lumens. The cost in £ per lumen would keep me awake at night.

When using LED bars, which I currently do on a two foot tank, I find that about 6-9 inches of width per bar is about right. On a bigger four foot tank, 18 inches back to front, 250 litres, I have grown high light plants successfully with three bars - one Superfish 52 watts, one Dennerle 66 and one Hygger 72 watts, but I found the latter LED bar still a bit light deficient for my needs, two cheap 24 watt All Pond Solution's LEDs worked better.

However, I prefer floodlights, cheap, and when mounted about a foot above they allow easy access. Mounted in a hood (which I have done) close to the water surface, I would use four 50 watt floodlights. Darrel recommended some very cheap and cheerful floodlights recently, lights I have used with good results.

 

[Oldguy]

I have a 280 litre tank with co2 at about 2bps

I would check how much CO2 is dissolved in the tank water. Bubbles per second is not a good measure. Try upping the CO2 till you have a very fine mist of bubbles in the tank. Watch you fish for signs of sluggishness or distress, if observed reduce CO2. The proper way of assessing CO2 is with a drop checker.
If the CO2 is fine them you may have a circulation problem. Often the two go together. Circulation should be about 5 to 10 times the tank volume. Take the pump/filter value off the box they came in.
Try planting some easy plants.
Check the magnesium content of your tap water, the supply company should have typical values for your post code.
Happy water gardening.
P.S. @Connswater has pipped me to the post
P.P.S. I use cheap 200watt equivalent LED full spectrum spotlights.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

However, I prefer floodlights, cheap, and when mounted about a foot above they allow easy access. Mounted in a hood (which I have done) close to the water surface, I would use four 50 watt floodlights. Darrel recommended some very cheap and cheerful floodlights recently, lights I have used with good results.

P.P.S. I use cheap 200watt full spectrum spotlights.

I have <"no sense of aesthetics"> so in terms of what you get for the money is a "no-brainer".

cheers Darrel

 

[deeproots]

I would check how much CO2 is dissolved in the tank water. Bubbles per second is not a good measure. Try upping the CO2 till you have a very fine mist of bubbles in the tank. Watch you fish for signs of sluggishness or distress, if observed reduce CO2. The proper way of assessing CO2 is with a drop checker.
If the CO2 is fine them you may have a circulation problem. Often the two go together. Circulation should be about 5 to 10 times the tank volume. Take the pump/filter value off the box they came in.
Try planting some easy plants.
Check the magnesium content of your tap water, the supply company should have typical values for your post code.
Happy water gardening.
P.S. @Connswater has pipped me to the post
P.P.S. I use cheap 200watt equivalent LED full spectrum spotlights.

thanks I'm paranoid about co2 levels as i've killed shrimp in the past - fish were ok but shrimp cant cope. I'll up it very slightly for now

 

[deeproots]

My 'pennyworth'. I'm a high light person, I like my plants to grow fast and out-compete algae, and produce leaves fully down the stalk, high light doesn't work for shade plants in my main tank.

I personally on a 280 litre tank would be tempted to use three one hundred watt floodlights, about a foot above the water level, for 8 hours a day and make sure my CO2 was 20+ ppm (as many bubbles per second when lights on, as is needed to hit the target) when plant photosynthesis is robust after some hours with CO2 and full light you will get vigorous pearling, the latter is not necessary, but if you get pearling you will get good growth, and, if you think it is a bit too much you can dial back either on light intensity (by raising the lights or turning one off) or duration (but I find 6 hours the absolute lowest limit to sustain plants). I'm a lean dose bloke so I'll let others advise on nutrients.

I've only been able to grow shade loving plants and floating plants with Nicrew lights, crypts and Java fern and salvinia. I've never used the Fluval but at 59 watts it can't be producing a lot of lumens. The cost in £ per lumen would keep me awake at night.

When using LED bars, which I currently do on a two foot tank, I find that about 6-9 inches of width per bar is about right. On a bigger four foot tank, 18 inches back to front, 250 litres, I have grown high light plants successfully with three bars - one Superfish 52 watts, one Dennerle 66 and one Hygger 72 watts, but I found the latter LED bar still a bit light deficient for my needs, two cheap 24 watt All Pond Solution's LEDs worked better.

However, I prefer floodlights, cheap, and when mounted about a foot above they allow easy access. Mounted in a hood (which I have done) close to the water surface, I would use four 50 watt floodlights. Darrel recommended some very cheap and cheerful floodlights recently, lights I have used with good results.

thanks - the weird thing is the moss is close to the surface so it should be growing even under medium light. Somethings not right with the fertilisation I think. EI mid vs thrive+ seems to add a lot of epsom salts so I'll see if that makes a difference.

 

[Zeus.]

Even with Low level ferts the some plants should grow, with High level ferts EI + CO2 + enough light the plants should thrive.

I dont think its the ferts

Is the CO2 stable ? but even if it wasn't you will still get growth from some plants. But BPS gives us little information about the CO2 levels except for 270l its low level IMO. What colour is the DC (Drop Checker)

Photo period is long enough, if anything its too long ( esp if the light intensity was high)

So its down to light intensity

Light intensity is very poorly measure in Watts . Lumens is slightly better than Watts. But PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is the only true way to measure a lights output all other means are a stab in the dark IMO

You have one Fluval Plant 3.0 Bluetooth LED, 59W for 270 litre tank

Olympus is Calling 500l had-
T5 24w four.
Four kessil A160we tuna sun 40W

It is hard to compare one lights specs with another unless you have PAR data for them. But one light for 270 litre tank high tech esp with your results seems to suggest its not enough light. Which is also plant dependant as well

 

[Happi]

I've had no problems growing in the past with commercial fertilisers

what were you using before?

I'm paranoid about co2 levels as i've killed shrimp in the past - fish were ok but shrimp cant cope.

I'll up it very slightly for now

If you can't even grow moss, then the issue isn't related to CO₂. I'm still surprised that CO₂ is being seen as the main problem while other potential factors are being overlooked. The potential issue lies in the dosing regimen or the specific chemicals being used.

 

[Zeus.]

If you can't even grow moss, then the issue isn't related to CO₂

Only tank I have going ATM is a 50L low tech, it gets ferts not very often at all. The one plant that grows well is Moss

 

[deeproots]

what were you using before?


If you can't even grow moss, then the issue isn't related to CO₂. I'm still surprised that CO₂ is being seen as the main problem while other potential factors are being overlooked. The potential issue lies in the dosing regimen or the specific chemicals being used.

i've used tnc complete and profito. TBH I've struggled with diy mixes, never really got the same results as before.

 

[deeproots]

Even with Low level ferts the some plants should grow, with High level ferts EI + CO2 + enough light the plants should thrive.

I dont think its the ferts

Is the CO2 stable ? but even if it wasn't you will still get growth from some plants. But BPS gives us little information about the CO2 levels except for 270l its low level IMO. What colour is the DC (Drop Checker)

Photo period is long enough, if anything its too long ( esp if the light intensity was high)

So its down to light intensity

Light intensity is very poorly measure in Watts . Lumens is slightly better than Watts. But PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is the only true way to measure a lights output all other means are a stab in the dark IMO

You have one Fluval Plant 3.0 Bluetooth LED, 59W for 270 litre tank

Olympus is Calling 500l had-
T5 24w four.
Four kessil A160we tuna sun 40W

It is hard to compare one lights specs with another unless you have PAR data for them. But one light for 270 litre tank high tech esp with your results seems to suggest its not enough light. Which is also plant dependant as well

thanks- the java fern grows well and my amazon sword does also. I have two lights, I have a fluval plant 3 and a nicrew which I think is 46w

 

[Happi]

i've used tnc complete and profito. TBH I've struggled with diy mixes, never really got the same results as before.

what kind of trouble? so you had success with TNC and Profito before?

Substrate is black fine gravel (I have stratum under my substrate "hill" on the last pic)

is this gravel limestone based?

Water is 50% rain water and 50% hard tap water.

do you have your tap water report?

 

[Connswater]

Somethings not right with the fertilisation I think

Perhaps, but it may be light and or CO2, generally aquarium water has enough nutrients to allow at least modest plant and algae growth.

Can you grow duckweed, hornwort and vallis?

I would test for Nitrate, Phosphate, pH/KH (and thus estimate CO2 levels) and use my mobile phone to get a rough idea of Lumens and PAR from the lights. I would use, as others have said, a long term CO2 indicator to see if you have half-decent levels of CO2 during the photo period.

If your water turns out to be short of nutrients then add them. But currently you are flying blind, and most tanks most of the the time have filters and substrate leaching and producing fertiliser for plants, with high light and CO2 they will exhaust the nutrients but not under low light they will limp by. I only add sequestered iron routinely, my filters churn out enough Nitrate and Phosphate most of the time, and I have root tabs in the substrate (sometimes soil in bags) but with moderately hard water I need to keep an eye on iron.

With my house plants light is the biggest factor, followed by nutrients. I get no growth from window sill plants from basically mid-November to mid-February no matter how much I feed. But with light, I get new growth which then prompts me to feed the plants.

I've had strong notions about what might be up with my tanks over the years only to discover after investigation, testing or experiment that it was something else. Keeping an open mind is my strong conviction based on past mistakes I've made, and problems I have yet to encounter will need the same.

Good luck.

 

[deeproots]

what kind of trouble? so you had success with TNC and Profito before?


is this gravel limestone based?

do you have your tap water report?

i did have success with TNC and Profito but come to think of it not everything was equal so not a great comparison and the tank probably still had some active tetra complete substrate underneath which is now exhausted as I understand it doesnt have any CEC capability hence why I didnt think to mention it (and I forgot as it was years ago).

I also used to use just tap water which is super hard. I dont have a report but I've measured the TDS at over 500. I now mix it with 50% rainwater. The gravel is inert.

 

[Happi]

I've measured the TDS at over 500. I now mix it with 50% rainwater

why not just use 100% rainwater? and mineralize if needed.

 

[deeproots]

Perhaps, but it may be light and or CO2, generally aquarium water has enough nutrients to allow at least modest plant and algae growth.

Can you grow duckweed, hornwort and vallis?

I would test for Nitrate, Phosphate, pH/KH (and thus estimate CO2 levels) and use my mobile phone to get a rough idea of Lumens and PAR from the lights. I would use, as others have said, a long term CO2 indicator to see if you have half-decent levels of CO2 during the photo period.

If your water turns out to be short of nutrients then add them. But currently you are flying blind, and most tanks most of the the time have filters and substrate leaching and producing fertiliser for plants, with high light and CO2 they will exhaust the nutrients but not under low light they will limp by. I only add sequestered iron routinely, my filters churn out enough Nitrate and Phosphate most of the time, and I have root tabs in the substrate (sometimes soil in bags) but with moderately hard water I need to keep an eye on iron.

With my house plants light is the biggest factor, followed by nutrients. I get no growth from window sill plants from basically mid-November to mid-February no matter how much I feed. But with light, I get new growth which then prompts me to feed the plants.

I've had strong notions about what might be up with my tanks over the years only to discover after investigation, testing or experiment that it was something else. Keeping an open mind is my strong conviction based on past mistakes I've made, and problems I have yet to encounter will need the same.

Good luck.

Thanks - I tested for nitrate and phosphate at just before a water change. The nitrate was super low <2ppm so the I think the plants were absorbing it so I doubled it. Phosphate was reading somewhere between ~2 and ~5ppm

next time I tested nitrate was up at ~10ppm and phosphate about the same as before. I've since left switched to EI mid which has much more MGSO4 in it and I've been running that for a week so i'll see if that makes any difference.

I do have a drop checker but I need to make up a standard solution as I've got a bottle of bromo blue so I'm not testing it until I get that. I guess I could measure PH manually until then.

I do have red root floaters which seem to flourish. They are contained so they dont spread and block light.

 

[deeproots]

why not just use 100% rainwater? and mineralize if needed.

simply speaking I dont have enough capability to store it and have it last through summer and I'd rather keep it consistent

 

[Aeropars]

I had similar problems a while back. It was my lighting not being high enough so that plants could only sustain life, and not grow.
If its ferts, the plants will generally deteriorate and melt. Same with a lack of CO2.
If things remain static, i would try upping your lighting. I think LED light can be deceiving in that it may look bright but is actually a lot lower than what a plant might need.

 

[Connswater]

LED light can be deceiving

Absolutely my experience, in the dim (no pun intended) and distant past I used four T8 tubes on my main tank, 144 watts of light, I need to use at least the same amount of LED light to get good growth, regardless of what the blurb tells me on the promotional literature. With T5 tubes I could get away with one less tube but I was always burning myself. When I test for lumens or PAR with my phone (not very accurate I know) I get readings with LED lights at comparable levels to the T5 and T8 tubes they are designed to replace. No surprise there. They are good but not magic, the lumens per watt for most LEDs is not amazing compared to fluorescent tubes with good reflectors, but LEDs run much cooler and last for ages, I have one LED bar now into its 8 year of use.

 

[Connswater]

red root floaters which seem to flourish

Interestingly, light levels fall dramatically with depth. So intensity may be the issue. But only a hypothesis.