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Perdition to paradise (hopefully)

Giant Vallis, almost 'bullet proof' but it does need a suitably deep substrate to anchor itself happily in, I have used fine gravel, silver sand and horticultural grit added into, and indeed, just sprinkled on top of pea gravel, after a time it sinks in. Giant Vallis also likes root tabs, but without fine substrate root tabs just become expensive water column fertilisers.

Is giant vallis what I appear to have? It was just sold as vallis. I’d like to get some more to fill out the back, because I’m too impatient to wait for enough runners from this lot. I have some v.asiatica (which may be the same as v.spiralis?) to go in front of it for texture
 
Giant Vallis has wider leaves. Honestly, be patient because when it gets going it will take over. Also, planting one variety in front of the other will end up with a mix as they spread through under substrate runners in all directions. Keeping them apart will become a real challenge.
 
giant vallis
I don't know for sure what plant you have there. Suspect spiralis, which will easily grow to two foot in leaf length with good light and good nutrition, but there are lots of species of 'eel' grass and I'm not a botanist but I have been sold incorrectly labelled plants many a time.

Giganthea, grows up and across, to 5 or 6 foot long from substrate to the tips of the leaves in an aquarium, longer in the wild, it does have thicker leaves, likes to spread across the surface pushed by the flow all in one direction, as in a river, you can see it in the rivers in southern Europe, turning brown red at the tips in good light with good root nutrition, young plants aren't much different in appearance to spiralis, the commonly sold variety. It would be my plant of choice for a hard water, lower maintenance tank, as long as the tank is a half decent length to let it spread on the surface.
I grew it for years in London without CO2. Never used scissors to give it a haircut, spoils the appearance, I used to remove 25% to 50% of the plants every third or so and give them to friend with a small tropical fish shop, he is taller than me, he, well over 6 foot, liked to untangle the plants and demonstrate by dangling them beside me, to anybody else in the store, that the leaves were as tall as me, killing himself laughing, okay I'm not tall, just over 5 foot 6. In good light it sucks up Nitrate and is a great oxygenator. Angel fish love it, they sort of gracefully slide between the vertical submerged tapered leaves and hunt for food in the parts of leaves waving on the surface. Because of the surface leaves it takes CO2 from the atmosphere and makes great use of the light, it is the leaves on the surface which make it so easy and useful, if allowed to flourish and not hacked back with scissors.

To really grow it well light has to be good, I would suggest at least one LED light bar for every 9 inches of width on a tank. If you ever watch any Dennerle on-line videos they often have two light bars on the tanks. If you really are impatient you will be delighted how fast it grows with good light once the tapered leaves hit the water surface.
 
Hi all,
I’m looking into the pros and cons of running an air stone during the day. Opinions on whether it’ll rob the tank of CO2 seem mixed, some even suggesting it could help add ambient CO2 as I’m not injecting. So I’m not yet putting it on a night-only timer, but I might.
I'm not sure it is a priority, personally I'm <"oxygen obsessed">, so I would keep it running. I'm <"not trying to be funny">, but you desperately need <"some more plants">.

If you had a floating plant <"What's your Favourite">, it would never be CO2 limited, your fish could dig it up and its health and <"leaf colour"> would give us a bit more idea why your plants aren't growing as well as you would like.

cheers Darrel
 
Hi all,

I'm not sure it is a priority, personally I'm <"oxygen obsessed">, so I would keep it running. I'm <"not trying to be funny">, but you desperately need <"some more plants">.

If you had a floating plant <"What's your Favourite">, it would never be CO2 limited, your fish could dig it up and its health and <"leaf colour"> would give us a bit more idea why your plants aren't growing as well as you would like.

cheers Darrel

I have more plants in a nursery-cum-hospital tank and I’m soon ordering more. I’m only holding off planting what I have because I am waiting for some hardscape to arrive and I’ll also be deepening the substrate. As soon as the new wood lands it’ll be go go go.

It’s been a couple weeks of big changes with more to come so I think it’s too early to tell if there are major issues with growth, but results so far are positive. The historical issues should now be solved but of course I will keep monitoring, learning and adjusting 🙂

Favourite floater so far is Amazon frogbit, in part due to your thread on the subject. Got a bunch waiting to go in.
 
Giant Vallis has wider leaves. Honestly, be patient because when it gets going it will take over. Also, planting one variety in front of the other will end up with a mix as they spread through under substrate runners in all directions. Keeping them apart will become a real challenge.
I don’t mind varieties mixing at all. It’ll just add to the visual texture and once they’re in I’m hoping to not mess about with them too much beyond thinning when necessary. This tank used to be a vallis palace (10+ years ago) and I liked it very much.
 
air stone during the day. Opinions on whether it’ll rob the tank of CO2 seem mixed, some even suggesting it could help add ambient CO2 as I’m not injecting
I want you to have a lovely aquarium to look at with healthy fish. It is such a beautiful hobby when things 'click' together, but these are ecosystems, they vary and my personal recipe for success is not some set of rules which must be followed. But I think there are gimmicks in the hobby, expensive ones, which claim to help in having a successful planted tank, for example: electrolysis for green algae control, fancy alternatives media to foam in filters, lights with spectrum gaps to reduce algae, 'liquid carbon', etc., etc., but some things in my experience work, CO2 injection, not using an air pump driven air stone, using a UV light in a filter for disease control and using a decent intensity of broad spectrum light to give the plants the energy they need for photosynthesis.

It is very important to clearly understand that there are lots of very good reasons for using an air stone.

This is particularly so with larger bodied fish, my gold fish pond requires oxygenation at night in the summer, but pumping air into a tank does not raise CO2 levels, despite what some say on some forums, those more scientific than me will no doubt explain. Despite there being over 400 ppm of CO2 in air, it does not dissolve from the bubbles into the water. Aeration definitely leads to gassing off of what little CO2 there is, however, some plants can cope, floating plants have the aerial advantage and some that deploy biogenic decalcification.

If you turn an air stone off, wait 24 hours and measure pH then turn it on again and measure pH after around 8 hours, the difference is very striking.

The four biggest early lessons I learnt in hard water London for successfully growing plants whilst keeping small fish, were, I think, some may not agree with me:

1. Turn off an air stone at least during the photo period but of course beware of hot weather and the implications for BOD and think of the needs of heavier bodied fish. I don't use air stones normally at all, but in hot summers I should, and will, in the future. 2022 I had a few fish losses during the heat wave, mainly rosy barbs, cooler water fish, with heavy bodies, they just couldn't cope. The small tetras were fine as were the corydoras catfish.
2. Make sure the light is strong enough for photosynthesis - that normally meant, back in the 1980s - a sort of plant growing 'dark age' - adding an extra cheap domestic fluorescent tube or two, additional to the tank to the inadequate but expensive so-called plant specialist tube provided. Many tanks today, are in contrast, adequately lit by one LED bar, but generally, success requires either a single high lumen bar or two. I have used four on my main tank, roughly 1 watt of LED per litre, but currently it is lit by bog standard floodlights, again roughly 1 watt of LED per litre. Many think that way too much light, all I can say is that yes it is too much for shade loving plants and yes I inject CO2. But with much less I don't get good growth from Rotala macrandra. I have used a lot less light and grown crypts, slowly but healthily, with around 1 watt of LED light per gallon.
3. Make sure the substrate is of an appropriate particle size - pea gravel alone is too big, it can be used to top more suitable substrate, silver sand, clay, garden soil, horticultural grit, pond soil, compost and even, expensive pelleted aquarium soil, though the latter turns into mush within a year or two in my tanks so I do not use it. I advocate that soil is put in a mesh bag to reduce mess, but I sometimes don't bother myself and come to regret it. My small tank was a murky mess last week after I pulled out more than 50% of the plants, better now but not completely clear.
4. Just as with alkaline soil, with alkaline water sequestered Iron needs to be added, I still do this, some 40+ years on when I change water, when using soft water in Belfast in my childhood and youth I never added Iron and never needed to. Hard water grows plants but iron deficiency with hard water is common.

There is a lot a debate about under gravels, I have never been successful with plants and under gravel plates but I am led to believe by many here that hard water not the movement of water through roots, is probably the reason. If, I could grow plants with under gravels, I would, they are perfectly matched to the size of the tank, hidden, easy maintenance and dirt cheap to buy.

Nothing I write here is grounded in proper scientific experiment, and I honestly don't understand a lot of the science talked about in the hobby, I am not a trained scientist. My tanks are not classic show stoppers but better than 90% of tanks on display in aquarium shops and are full of fast growing plants and my fish are healthy, but as I confessed, I have had things go wrong, CO2 injection is definitely not for everybody.

A surface picture of my little tank before I attacked it. I'll post a picture of my little tank when I have replanted all the currently floating crypts. Two LED tubes and 24 hour low bubble inected CO2, the substrate is largely heavy pond soil under sand and horticultural grit.

The emerged leaves of the Indian fern have been dried out/burnt a bit and some of the salvinia is showing nutrient deficiency, the frogbit is I think fairly healthy, no water column fertiliser other than Iron had been added for months.

I wish you success with your renovation project but I too think it is important to have a good plant mass to start with otherwise algae will fill the niche. I also think Nitrates do need to be kept in check, best in the 10-40 ppm range in my experience.
 

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I'm not sure it is a priority, personally I'm <"oxygen obsessed">, so I would keep it running. I'm <"not trying to be funny">, but you desperately need <"some more plants">.
I agree on both with Darrel here.

but pumping air into a tank does not raise CO2 levels, despite what some say on some forums, those more scientific than me will no doubt explain. Despite there being over 400 ppm of CO2 in air, it does not dissolve from the bubbles into the water. Aeration definitely leads to gassing off of what little CO2 there is, however, some plants can cope, floating plants have the aerial advantage and some that deploy biogenic decalcification.
If you turn an air stone off, wait 24 hours and measure pH then turn it on again and measure pH after around 8 hours, the difference is very striking.
Don’t agree on this one. In living rooms, CO2 ppm tends to get higher than 800, sometimes 1500 in mine. So if you run an air pump, that CO2 will diffuse into the water, but only if CO2 is lower than say around 1.2 - 2 mg/L. Hopefully your plants will grow very dense one day, so lots of oxygen gets produced. But I can tell you, lots of plants will suck up the CO2 big time! And that’s where aeration can be beneficial as well, from keeping your tank depleted of CO2. And this can actually happen, been there myself (in a fully stocked planted tank.)

Easiest way to check is indeed pH. End of the photosynthetic period (when CO2 tends to get the lowest) take a sample of tank water and measure pH. Now aerate this sample in the same room. If pH decreases, you are better off aerating the tank because your CO2 is depleted and will increase by using the air pump. If pH increases, you would drive off CO2.

You are nowhere near fully stocked, so no worries for you for now, stick to the forgiving plant species and try to grow them in larger quantities and keep them happy. This and lots of oxygen, flow and tank janitors will keep your tank healthy with minimum of algae.

Good luck!
 
I have a Filstar XP3 running

I misremembered how many media baskets it has. It's an XP2.

I would suggest at least one LED light bar for every 9 inches of width on a tank.

I may well add a second bar in the future. I think I've spent most of my hobby pocket money for now :lol:

as I confessed, I have had things go wrong, CO2 injection is definitely not for everybody.

I must admit, the thought of adding another system to manage and monitor is very daunting at the moment. I'll get the tank stable and healthy then might review in the future. I'm very aware of the risks of taking my eye off the ball (as is wont to happen) and the CO2 system developing a problem.

I too think it is important to have a good plant mass to start with otherwise algae will fill the niche.

Definitely! I'm not intending to try to run "lean", I just need to take things at a pace my brain, body and wallet can handle 😅

Easiest way to check is indeed pH. End of the photosynthetic period (when CO2 tends to get the lowest) take a sample of tank water and measure pH. Now aerate this sample in the same room. If pH decreases, you are better off aerating the tank because your CO2 is depleted and will increase by using the air pump. If pH increases, you would drive off CO2.

That's an experiment I can certainly run 🙂

lots of oxygen, flow and tank janitors will keep your tank healthy with minimum of algae

I think I've managed to get the flow right - the plants are gently waving in the "breeze" and the little corral of frogbit is slowly touring the surface. Oxygen is currently a topic of some debate :lol:

I am struggling to think of "janitors" that will cohabit with my large synos. Snails, shrimp and small fish tend to go missing very quickly. I know there are larger algae eaters like SAEs and various suckermouthed cats. Most algae eaters seem to be bottom dwellers and I worry about too much competition for territory at that level. Any suggestions for mid-sized cleaners that won't fight with the synos, or get eaten by them?
 
Day 16

The wood arrived!

All change in the tank today. An actual design was implemented, with mock-ups and sketches. I reused most of the hardscape I already had, the only new element is the azalea root. The finished layout is rudimentary compared to the work of aquascaping hobbyists but it’s definitely the most ambitious I’ve tried and I’m rather pleased with it. The cyanoacrylate gel was a game changer.

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I managed to kill the old Fluval internal filter with a barrage of fine sand. Fortunately I keep spares and spares of my spares.

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All the new plants are in and I can see where there is space for more. Definitely foreground and epiphytes. Trying to find a balance between filling quickly vs allowing plants to grow in seems tricky - something that comes with experience (and perhaps keeping notes). I think I’ve spread the stem plants too thin. Bunch them up a bit more, then get some more bunches in a bit. Terrestrial gardening habits got the better of me.

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I would like a divider at the surface that runs the full length of the tank, to barricade the floating plants along the front glass. I think it might give the illusion of complete coverage while still letting the light through behind. Should be something I can make with a bit of planning 🤔

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The gang weren’t impressed with the upheaval and sudden sandstorm but the water has cleared and they’re all back to their usual selves. The synos are cheerfully sifting through the sand.

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The airstone is on a night timer. Though you can now see the water stains on the back glass 🤫

Don’t mind the rocks on the root, they’ll be gone in a few days.

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(w.c. 11 done)
 
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I would like a divider at the surface that runs the full length of the tank, to barricade the floating plants along the front glass. I think it might give the illusion of complete coverage while still letting the light through behind. Should be something I can make with a bit of planning 🤔

Some fishing line along the surface of the water works nicely secured at either end of the tank with a suction cup

Really enjoying the journal so far, and love the fish selection
 
CO2 ppm tends to get higher than 800, sometimes 1500 in mine
Very interesting post. Thanks, and you have me thinking.

I recognise that atmospheric CO2 can be used to raise dissolved CO2 in water, my post was - generous interpretation - a tad broad brush, or - less generous - scientifically deficient.

I have to say however, I have never yet seen, personally, a tank sustained over time with healthy plants and, air stone use during the photo period, excluding of course, potentially, plants such as frogbit taking advantage at the surface of the CO2 in the air. A friend insists on air stones, but he does, I am afraid treat plants as consumables, more like cut flowers than house plants. Water temperature and water hardness are of course also playing their part in this complicated process.

I personally would find the sorts of room CO2 levels you cite intolerable. Most folks start to feel drowsy above around 1,000 ppm, or so I am led to believe. As a chronic asthmatic, all rooms in my house, are, at least lightly, ventilated 365 days a year. As a retired teacher, looking back, if I entered a colleague's classroom I could immediately spot if a window needed opened because of high CO2 levels and bored drowsy teenagers.

I understand that, at levels of virtually zero in a planted tank, after photosynthesis, atmospheric CO2 will, over time, naturally raise the level in water, the equilibrium point.

The advantage of injecting CO2 via yeast and sugar or high pressure systems is of course that levels above 15 ppm can be sustained during the photo period. Air stones, run, while injecting CO2 just mean a loss of the injected CO2 and. that may be, the primary reason most of us. with heavily planted tanks, decide to do without air stones. Floating plants are the exception of course.

Will the vigorous aeration which is caused by an air stone, overall, help or hinder plants, in the typical room atmosphere, significantly? Would the dissolving of relatively modest amounts of CO2 into water by this process be sufficient for plant maintenance? I suspect, that in a tank with only slow shade loving plants, the answer might be yes, assuming algae didn't fill the niche and consume the CO2.

I certainly recognise that I have never been sure whether vigorous aeration is primarily problematic in a tank without injected CO2 because of the gassing off of CO2 or the oxidation process, making trace elements inaccessible to plants. I am led to believe that in hard water this may be the primary cause of failure with under gravel plates.

I know that figures as high as 30 ppm can be theoretically achieved with air stones, but I don't know how one balances that out against the loss of the CO2 generated from the substrate and the filter. I'd be interested in any research or indeed personal experience, as I say often, I am not a scientist.

Most CO2 in natural waters utilised by plants is I read, from decomposition from the organic material in the substrate, and thus pH levels fluctuate between day and night.

In hard water of course many plants in an aquarium will utilise the bicarbonates via biogenic decalcification.

In my experience air stones are good for fish but apparently bad for plants, I have watched a few folks on Youtube advocate air stones to utilise atmospheric CO2 but to be candid, their plants never look that healthy to me but other factors may be at play.

My own experience is, that turning off an air stone during the photo period generally improves plant health within weeks and, that with adequate light, without an air stone during the photo period, the plants will provide sufficient oxygen for small fish and invertebrates. Running an air stone at night seems to me the best compromise.
 
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I am struggling to think of "janitors" that will cohabit with my large synos. Snails, shrimp and small fish tend to go missing very quickly. I know there are larger algae eaters like SAEs and various suckermouthed cats. Most algae eaters seem to be bottom dwellers and I worry about too m uch competition for territory at that level. Any suggestions for mid-sized cleaners that won't fight with the synos, or get eaten by them?
Oh, I don’t have experience with Synodontis, but I can imagine small tank janitors can be nice snacks for them. Be aware the wood slowly turns into organic waste in your tank, and in my personal experience, BBA loves it. Some aquarist hate BBA, some don’t bother that much.
Happy tanking!
 
Oh, I don’t have experience with Synodontis, but I can imagine small tank janitors can be nice snacks for them. Be aware the wood slowly turns into organic waste in your tank, and in my personal experience, BBA loves it. Some aquarist hate BBA, some don’t bother that much.
Happy tanking!
The dark wood is 15+ years old and definitely slowly degrading. And yes, it has BBA. I don’t mind it.
 
Day 17
No water change today, I crashed before I got around to it. Will do a larger one tomorrow.

Most plants stayed in the sand overnight, despite the best efforts of the synos. They’ve been digging all over. The crypts and the frogbit are suffering the most - crypts from the digging and Talbot seems to have developed a taste for frogbit roots.

The Congo tetra have not seemed impressed by the light levels, I think because the sand is so much more reflective than the old substrate. I’ve dimmed the light and will add botanicals/leaf litter to reduce the glare even more. They are, however, exhibiting pre-spawning behaviour. Until now the males have largely ignored the females but today they were taking turns to “dance” with the larger girl. That was fun to see.

I ran a CO2-pH experiment on a sample from the tank during the siesta period (5 hours dark in the middle of the day). pH rose when the sample was aerated. I’ll run it again in a more thoughtful way at some point but for now I’ll be keeping the air stone off during the photoperiod.
 
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sand is so much more reflective than the old substrate
This is an issue with sand, leaf litter is a great idea and more floating plants, reducing the light intensity temporarily isn't a bad idea either. Once the floating plants take off, and the tetras get used to a lighter substrate and have fully worked out places to hide amongst plants, things will be fine. Apparently, and you may know this, light substrates without floating plants (in abundance) make fish uncomfortable because of their greater visibility to predators from above, birds mainly. All good stuff - your thread is definitely interesting.
 
Day 18
12th w.c. done. A big one today - 40-50%. Nitrate testing 50-100ppm post water change. I really struggle to tell the difference between the reds, but the 1/5 test was a solid dark orange, about 20ppm. Tap water is testing at 10ppm.

Replanted most of the surviving crypts. I think I’ll get some weights and plant the next lot in small bundles. I lifted the rocks from the new root and it promptly floated so back down they go.

I had a look at Lincolnshire Pond Plants (Lincsplants.com). They have very attractive prices for aquarium plants and a really large selection but reviews online are excoriating. Unless I discover more information that would mitigate the poor reviews I’ll avoid. Given their selection, I was curious to note few search results on here.

Edit to add: put Lucy back in the big tank. He went in for a chase and she’s fighting back. I’m leaving them to it for now in the hopes that they sort out whatever dominance/territory/breeding drama is occurring but if this doesn’t settle down over the next day or so I need to decide whether I am rehoming one of them or getting 3-5 more (in the hopes that a larger group will improve the dynamic). And if I get more, I need to decide between lucipinnis and petricola, acknowledging there’s a significantly non-zero chance that any “petricola” sold will turn out to be lucipinnis or perhaps multipunctatus. I regret not putting her back in during the re-scape, he’s had a chance to develop territory without her there to contest it.
 
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surviving crypts
I find you can cut all the bigger leaves off, trim the long root/rhizome back to make it manageable and push gently into sand, I use a cheap Streptocarpus fertiliser tablet 7-10-25 NPK buried as deep as I can go close to the plant, and find, about 3 months later, you have a pretty good set of new leaves. I do think that many crypt species though not all high light demand, are not as shade loving as is sometimes suggested. Glad to hear you are winning on water column Nitrate, 10 ppm in tap water in winter is not unusual, mine can be much higher in the summer.
 
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