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Perdition to paradise (hopefully)
- Thread starter greying_mantis
- Start date
I got ahead of myself here, @Happi has already done all the math's and descriptions, Solufeed 2:1:4 and Solufeed Sodium Free TEC or Solufeed Coir TEC Combination. Well worth a read of the whole thread.
Cheers!
PeerUnk
Member
Hi nice people,
Hard water you mention, the general assumption is high KH and higher pH affect some nutrient availability like iron and/or makes it harder for plants to take in some nutrients. To my experience some plant species are adapted to higher KH like for instance Ludwigia repens and Vallisneria.
To summarize my reasons to run air stone 24/7. The tank water always has 100% oxygen, and always has a low, steady, non-depleted CO2 level to support healthy photosynthesis.
I have to replace my broken O2 sensor in my monitoring device. But I do some tests to show the differences in CO2 and O2 levels when not aerating at all, just during the day, just during the night and for 24 hours/day.
I might show the graphs and write an article about it, when there is public interest in it. Accompanied with pictures of the tank, and what I do next to oxygen and CO2 to keep the plants happy.
Cheers!
If I showed you a picture of my tank with healthy plants and told you aeration is running 24/7, would that help? And do you any specifics accompanied with that picture?
1500 is not a goal at all, I try to keep is below 800-1000. But when the entire family is watching tv in the evening, my permanent house ventilation system does not adjust itself and CO2 creeps up to 1500 ppm.
Yes indeed, aeration while injecting CO2 would drive the injected CO2 straight out the water. It would be a complete waste of CO2 to my opinion.
I believe when one has a heavily stocked planted tank, CO2 can run out during the day, so aeration will help maintaining a low but steady level of CO2. Aeration could hinder just as well when CO2 is above equilibrium, which would be when injecting CO2 (already pointed out) or just before/after turning the lights on.
Oh, for sure in my experience. But it depends on very much on the specific plant species. Some grow perfectly fine at 0.75 - 1.5 mg/L (like the forgiving ‘beginners’ species, but R wallichii just as well at pH<6.5 KH=0) , but for quit some, elevated CO2 is mandatory and will simply die in my tanks. For all species growth is much slower than with CO2 injection. Slow healthy growth is what I prefer, I don’t like weekly pruning (nor the presence of a big CO2 canister which has the potential to kill people when things go wrong).
Hard water you mention, the general assumption is high KH and higher pH affect some nutrient availability like iron and/or makes it harder for plants to take in some nutrients. To my experience some plant species are adapted to higher KH like for instance Ludwigia repens and Vallisneria.
Not sure I understand this section. But I would doubt 30 ppm in a tank with aeration. My 24/7 CO2 monitoring device never measured anything higher than 2.8 mg/L, which is equivalent to 1800 ppm in air. But I do aerate at night… I have no figures how much CO2 is respirated at night. I will test that the upcoming weeks.
Aeration is good for fish indeed, like the rest of the micro environment in a tank, which heavily depends on oxygen for survival, like we humans do. That’s the main benefit of aeration: diffusion oxygen into the water (when there is to little), just like plant photosynthesis does.
If your plant health improves by shutting down an air stone, that’s great. Then water does not run out of CO2 during the day. But that might not be the case for everybody. Nor for your own tank when you increase light intensity or increase plant mass.
To summarize my reasons to run air stone 24/7. The tank water always has 100% oxygen, and always has a low, steady, non-depleted CO2 level to support healthy photosynthesis.
I have to replace my broken O2 sensor in my monitoring device. But I do some tests to show the differences in CO2 and O2 levels when not aerating at all, just during the day, just during the night and for 24 hours/day.
I might show the graphs and write an article about it, when there is public interest in it. Accompanied with pictures of the tank, and what I do next to oxygen and CO2 to keep the plants happy.
Cheers!
greying_mantis
Member
Update
I’m not keeping track of days anymore so I’ll just put “update” at the top for general journaling, musings and photos.
50% water change as the nitrates are still testing quite high. I found my kitchen tap hose adapter in the shed - I’d mostly forgotten I had it as it didn’t fit the tap in the previous house. Works beautifully here.
Finished the whitespot treatment. The large female Congo has lost her spot but small female still has hers - not sure how long to give it to heal before I conclude another round of treatment is needed (if indeed it is whitespot). The cats are still flashing but again, presumably they will still be in some discomfort while they heal even if the active infection has resolved. I’ll keep an eye on them and make a decision in a few days.
Girlfriend and I are now actively planning her shrimp/nano tank. I dug a small rimless out of the shed and found some forgotten mopani wood and a couple of sponge/air driven filters. Leak-testing-cum-water-logging in progress. We have loads of small plants left in the nursery tank and I’ll rescue some of the buce from the synos who have both decided tiny leaves are cat treats. I am learning an expensive lesson about which plants are G&T safe (or should I say, safe from G&T). T even had a good go at one of the anubias!
The floaters continue to do well. I don’t know what caused the first lot of frogbit to disintegrate but this lot seem fine. Maybe the tank was just that nutrient depleted but I still wouldn’t have expected them to vanish entirely in only a week or so.
One of the frogbit has rounder, thinner, flatter leaves than the others. Definitely not water lettuce or RRF. Maybe a different frogbit species hitchhiked in? I’ll try to remember to get a photo tomorrow.
I’m not keeping track of days anymore so I’ll just put “update” at the top for general journaling, musings and photos.
50% water change as the nitrates are still testing quite high. I found my kitchen tap hose adapter in the shed - I’d mostly forgotten I had it as it didn’t fit the tap in the previous house. Works beautifully here.
Finished the whitespot treatment. The large female Congo has lost her spot but small female still has hers - not sure how long to give it to heal before I conclude another round of treatment is needed (if indeed it is whitespot). The cats are still flashing but again, presumably they will still be in some discomfort while they heal even if the active infection has resolved. I’ll keep an eye on them and make a decision in a few days.
Girlfriend and I are now actively planning her shrimp/nano tank. I dug a small rimless out of the shed and found some forgotten mopani wood and a couple of sponge/air driven filters. Leak-testing-cum-water-logging in progress. We have loads of small plants left in the nursery tank and I’ll rescue some of the buce from the synos who have both decided tiny leaves are cat treats. I am learning an expensive lesson about which plants are G&T safe (or should I say, safe from G&T). T even had a good go at one of the anubias!
The floaters continue to do well. I don’t know what caused the first lot of frogbit to disintegrate but this lot seem fine. Maybe the tank was just that nutrient depleted but I still wouldn’t have expected them to vanish entirely in only a week or so.
One of the frogbit has rounder, thinner, flatter leaves than the others. Definitely not water lettuce or RRF. Maybe a different frogbit species hitchhiked in? I’ll try to remember to get a photo tomorrow.
greying_mantis
Member
Frogbit ID
Are all three Amazon frogbit or is the one on the left (marked) something else?
Are all three Amazon frogbit or is the one on the left (marked) something else?
Fishfur
Member
Looks like frogbit to me but grown under less intense light so it isn’t showing the markings the other two have, which come with intense enough light.
greying_mantis
Member
Update
The iron arrived and I really wanted to see what 0.2ppm looked like 🤣
The iron arrived and I really wanted to see what 0.2ppm looked like 🤣
Connswater
Member
Please do.
And many thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response and as I stressed I am not a scientist and I was primarily writing about tanks I have owned, seen in other folks homes and yes, via photographs. For the latter I never know how long the tank has looked as photographed, a friend runs a tank with aeration, but he changes the plants regularly, sometimes it looks fantastic, but at other times the plants are clearly dying. But he is running the tank warmer than usual with valuable and sensitive discus fish so I would never suggest he turns off his air stones.
I too have grown healthy Vallis with an air stone running during the photo period. So I was too 'broad brush' when I mentioned only floating plants when talking of success with air stone use. My suspicion is that the leaves of the Vallis trailing on the surface take advantage of CO2 in the air, and as we know, in hard water Vallis can take CO2 via biogencic decalcification. I have also had the same success with Egeria and to a lesser extent Hygrophila polysperama, but with the latter, emerged leaves in an aerated tank have been healthy and dominant and the lower submerged parts of the plant much less attractive.
No 'one size fits all' and I sometimes should be careful not to write as if 'pears and apples' are interchangeable.
Hi all,
cheers Darrel
We have a thread for you <"FE EDDHA">. I think you can actually use this to your advantage, when the water is no longer pink? You need to add some more FeEDDHA.
cheers Darrel
greying_mantis
Member
Update
The water is a little more brown than red now, similar to blackwater though still a bit warm toned. It’s rather pleasant.
The water lettuce are doing very well but the red root floaters are struggling. I think there has been just a bit too much water movement, not helped by me having my hands in the tank so much as I make small adjustments. The poor things keep getting moved about and dunked (and plucked off my arms). I’ve swapped the air bar for a round stone and moved it to one side where the filter outlet bar acts as a dam between the surface flow and the rest of the tank. Hopefully that will help them recover, assuming I can stop fiddling for a few days!
There are also clusters of tiny bugs on some of the most severely damaged floaters. They jump so I assume springtails but now I’m wondering if they’re just taking advantage of the damaged leaves or actually contributing to the damage.
The large female Congo is back in the tank but also back to breathing heavily so I don’t want to turn the air pump off. She might need a longer stint in “hospital”. We don’t actually have a hospital tank at the moment but girlfriend’s “new” tank will work until she gets her shrimp.
At some point I’ll be getting another 5-6 Congos so will need a larger tank for quarantine. I think there’s something suitable in the shed but the only remaining surface with nearby power is in spouse’s room. I shall have to flutter my eyelashes at him 😅
The water is a little more brown than red now, similar to blackwater though still a bit warm toned. It’s rather pleasant.
The water lettuce are doing very well but the red root floaters are struggling. I think there has been just a bit too much water movement, not helped by me having my hands in the tank so much as I make small adjustments. The poor things keep getting moved about and dunked (and plucked off my arms). I’ve swapped the air bar for a round stone and moved it to one side where the filter outlet bar acts as a dam between the surface flow and the rest of the tank. Hopefully that will help them recover, assuming I can stop fiddling for a few days!
There are also clusters of tiny bugs on some of the most severely damaged floaters. They jump so I assume springtails but now I’m wondering if they’re just taking advantage of the damaged leaves or actually contributing to the damage.
The large female Congo is back in the tank but also back to breathing heavily so I don’t want to turn the air pump off. She might need a longer stint in “hospital”. We don’t actually have a hospital tank at the moment but girlfriend’s “new” tank will work until she gets her shrimp.
At some point I’ll be getting another 5-6 Congos so will need a larger tank for quarantine. I think there’s something suitable in the shed but the only remaining surface with nearby power is in spouse’s room. I shall have to flutter my eyelashes at him 😅
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Fishfur
Member
Springtails are detritivores - they’ll be eating deteriorating leaves but they don’t actively harm healthy leaves.
greying_mantis
Member
Thanks, that was my understanding of springtails but I didn’t want to assume they are the only “springy” insect that might make their way to the plants.
Maf 2500
Member
Could be thrips or similar
Fishfur
Member
I’ve had springtails that look exactly like those in the picture & I employ terrestrial species as cleanup crew in planted vivariums & terrariums. If they caused damage to precious terrarium species that would never be possible.
Those you have are aquatic, known as water springtails - Podura aquatica. They spend their lives on the surface of water that’s quiet enough & even have specially adapted claws that help them walk on water.
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greying_mantis
Member
Fishfur
Member
If their numbers get to be a bit much, surface feeding fish will eat them readily. I had a lot of them at one time in my green rock bin - but I had a pump running in the bin that made the water too lively for their preferences.
So they congregated just above the waterline all around the edges of the bin instead of on the actual water. I believe they were eating the algae that got stuck to the sides plus the ring of biofilm that was always there just above the waterline. There were hordes of them & it took me ages to ID them - lost them & the bin during a move. I wouldn’t mind a bit if some showed up again.
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Hi all,
cheers Darrel
I definitely don't object to it a look, I know some people have been using <"Rooibos tea as a tannin source">, and that gives a similar look.
They've never <"enjoyed life with me">, I think they like more nutrients (<"and warmth">?) than I have to offer - <"Red root floater (Phyllanthus fluitans) and the effect of nitrogen (N).">.
cheers Darrel
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greying_mantis
Member
Thanks for the links, Darrel 🙂 a closer look today shows all is not lost now that they’ve had a chance to dry out on top. Definitely moving green, though. I don’t really mind what colour they are as I’m too short to look down onto the surface of the water without a step ladder! Hopefully enough thrive to keep a population going.
Connswater
Member
I think your light might not be quite bright enough to grow red root floaters, and yes, they need to be 'dry on top', but they don't like me so I've limited experience. Lots of fish find spring tails delicious, so they are a winner.
greying_mantis
Member
Update
A few days of barely disturbing the floaters has them all looking much better. I’ve evicted a handful of water lettuce to the unheated, unfiltered bathroom windowsill tank.
Another batch of buce and crypts arrived today, this time established plants from another UKAPS member - larger, stronger and hopefully syno-proof. G & T have so far ignored them.
The larger female Congo has been separated from the others all week. She’s upright but her scales are lifting slightly and she’s not eating. Not looking good. She’s the last of my previous group so I think she’s at least 5, if not 7. Maybe it’s just time. She has peace and quiet in the shrimpless shrimp tank.
A few days of barely disturbing the floaters has them all looking much better. I’ve evicted a handful of water lettuce to the unheated, unfiltered bathroom windowsill tank.
Another batch of buce and crypts arrived today, this time established plants from another UKAPS member - larger, stronger and hopefully syno-proof. G & T have so far ignored them.
The larger female Congo has been separated from the others all week. She’s upright but her scales are lifting slightly and she’s not eating. Not looking good. She’s the last of my previous group so I think she’s at least 5, if not 7. Maybe it’s just time. She has peace and quiet in the shrimpless shrimp tank.
