Jungle aquascape

[John q]

there is lots of experience here.

Lol. There is, and all roads will lead you Rome, eventually.

 

[Karacticus]

Lol. There is, and all roads will lead you Rome, eventually.

Just to confirm, is Phosguard a waste of time to help with diatoms? 🤔

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

My thinking was I have diatoms and a sandy substrate > the diatoms feed off Silicates > Phosguard removes Silicates > so by adding it I'd reduce diatoms? I haven't actually ordered any yet, so would you suggest not to bother?

Just to confirm, is Phosguard a waste of time to help with diatoms?

Double whammy really. Diatoms need <"orthosilicic acid (H4SiO4) in solution to make their skeletons">, and that is totally unrelated to the quartz (SiO2) in your sand, which is literally <"insoluble for all of eternity">.

You can theoretically limit diatom growth by removing all the orthosilic acid from solution, but it literally needs to be all of it, because diatoms are incredibly efficient at finding the merest trace in solution. You can conclude that because all tanks don't have visible diatoms (although I'll bet that they still have invisible diatoms) that diatoms outbreaks aren't caused solely by the amount of silicon (Si) available.

The second problem is the phosphate (PO4---) one, plants need phosphate (it is one of the three macronutrients), but they don't need as much of it as they need nitrogen (N) and potassium (K) and it is highly mobile within the plant, meaning that <"deficiencies take a while to show">.

The unscrupulous vendors to sell Phosguard etc know this

Because PO4--- forms a lot of <"insoluble compounds"> you can always remove it from the water column, but it will take a while before deficiencies show. The vendors of <"Rowaphos">,"Phosban", "Phosguard" etc know that it takes a while for deficiencies to show, so can carry on peddling their wares to the, initially delighted, freshwater fish keeper.

It also allows them to sell a phosphate test kit etc. and you then have the repeat sales of both PO4--- remover and test kit, add in a "pH buffer" and a fertiliser containing PO4--- as well? You can sell punter the phosphate remover, the buffer, the test kit and the fertiliser and they will work together to extract <"an ever increasing amount of money"> to solve a "problem" that <"never existed in the first place">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Happi]

Just to confirm, is Phosguard a waste of time to help with diatoms? 🤔

read this

 

[John q]

Just to confirm, is Phosguard a waste of time to help with diatoms? 🤔

Yes it is. The ideology that phosphate causes algae, diatoms or everything else in planted tanks was put to bed a long time ago by numerous experiments. Sadly there are some people that still cling on to the notion that they do. I tend to find the people that promote phosphate limitation don't regularly upload pictures of healthy, thriving planted tanks.

To recap... To reduce algae by nutrient limitation will result in dead plants.

 

[Happi]

Fe DTPA

you are more than welcome to add Fe DTPA to your existing Mix or make it separate solution. 0.1-0.2 ppm Fe weekly would be a good start.

if you really want to Modify this, try this:

8.86 gram Solufeed Sodium Free TEC Mixed in 500 ml, 20 ml per 293 Liter
6.66 gram Fe DTPA 11%
4.28 gram Mn EDTA 13%
29.7 gram MgSO4*7H2O

Fe 0.2
Mn 0.1
B 0.0111
Cu 0.00278
Zn 0.014
Mo 0.001813
Mg 0.4
S 0.5

 

[John q]

On a budget:

Mn 13% EDTA Chelated Organic Manganese Planted Aquarium Fish Tank Fertiliser EI | eBay

Mn 13% EDTA Chelated 50g. It is also necessary in the process of oxygen production during photosynthesis. Organic form of Manganese for aquarium use. Symptoms usually are noticeable in the leaves located in the lower and middle parts of the plant.

www.ebay.co.uk

Will probably last a few years.

 

[Karacticus]

I bow down to your collective wisdom! 😇 You guys are great - thanks for all the advice. Saved me a few quid that i can put towards livestock. I've just got back, so will dive into these links and hopefully absorb it all tomorrow.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to dish out the quality advice. The chemistry element is complicated, but I'm gradually learning with your help and reading various posts.

Thanks again.

Mark

 

[Karacticus]

@John q and/or @Happi (or anyone else with the knowledge), what is the rationale for using DTPA as opposed to EDDHA which works across a greater pH range please? My pH starts at around 7.3 in the morning and drops to around 6.7 with CO2. If DTPA has an effective range of pH 2-7, and I dose in the morning before the lights come up, will it useable by the time the plants start photosynthesising? EDDHA has an upper range of around pH 9 so would this be a better choice?

Second question... what is the formula for working out how much of the chelated iron to add to solution and then know how much to dose to give say 0.2ppm Fe? I'd like to be able to work this out myself if possible.

Third question... my nitrate levels have been consistently low for the last week - 2.5ppm, if that. Nitrites are zero. Phosphates are zero. Does this have any impact on how much I should be dosing fertilisers? Assume not whilst everything seems to be doing okay.

Finally, my Monte Carlo and Lilaeopsis brasiliensis seem to be fairly static compared to the bigger plants. The Lilaeopsis has been sending out runners, but neither seem to be taking off like the others. Could this be that my light levels are set too low and aren't reaching the bottom? My Sagittaria natans on the other hand is already looking like it wants to take over the tank. My light is set to around 50:40:50:40.

Sorry for the multiple questions!

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Hufsa]

@John q and/or @Happi (or anyone else with the knowledge), what is the rationale for using DTPA as opposed to EDDHA which works across a greater pH range please?

Because EDDHA turns the water hella pink
You can only use a very small amount of it before you will get a notable tint to your tank.
If you really wanted you could maybe combine it with DTPA for a less pink effect.

My pH starts at around 7.3 in the morning and drops to around 6.7 with CO2. If DTPA has an effective range of pH 2-7, and I dose in the morning before the lights come up, will it useable by the time the plants start photosynthesising?

Is it an option for you to dose once the PH has hit the lowest point?

Second question... what is the formula for working out how much of the chelated iron to add to solution and then know how much to dose to give say 0.2ppm Fe? I'd like to be able to work this out myself if possible.

Ill let someone smurt-er than me answer this 😅 I just use the IFC calculator nowadays.

Finally, my Monte Carlo and Lilaeopsis brasiliensis seem to be fairly static compared to the bigger plants. The Lilaeopsis has been sending out runners, but neither seem to be taking off like the others. Could this be that my light levels are set too low and aren't reaching the bottom? My Sagittaria natans on the other hand is already looking like it wants to take over the tank. My light is set to around 50:40:50:40.

It seems to me the most common cause for carpet plants not doing as well is that flow isnt as good down by the substrate.
More common issue than low light, but somehow we always suspect the light first 😁 Id check on your flow, after all it is responsible for delivering everything except light, a pretty important job!

 

[Karacticus]

Thanks, @Hufsa. I will try the DTPA first of all then and see how I get on - not sure a pink tank will look the best! Unfortunately, I am out most weekdays during the day, so don't often have the opportunity to dose during the day. I will probably look into an auto doser at some point, though.

That is a good shout re. the flow - it does look fairly still near the bottom. My lily pipe tends to push the flow towards the surface and I'd rather not have a powerhead inside the tank, but maybe I need to think about that. The professional tanks often seem to have just lily pipes as standard, so not sure how they achieve such good results. Sure there's some useful stuff on this site somewhere.

 

[Karacticus]

I have purchased the Fe DTPA 11% and want to mix it into my 500ml micros mix (Solufeed Sodium Free TEC). I am still dosing the Solufeed 2:1:4 - effectively have two bottles that I dose together daily (approx. 5ml).

How much Fe DTPA do I need to add to a 500ml solution please? I have tried the calculator, which gives me:


To reach your target of 0.1ppm Fe you will need to add 27 grams (equivalent to 2 tbsp + 0 tsp + 1/2 tsp + 1/4 tsp + 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp ) of DTPA Fe (11%) to your 500mL dosing container. Add 5mL of that mix to your 297L aquarium to yield:

Element	ppm/degree
Fe	0.1

This is traditional EI reduced to daily dosing levels.


But this sounds like a lot. Is this for a single 5ml dose per week? How much would I add to use in a daily dose of 5ml to add an additional 0.1ppm Fe? Pretty sure I have this wrong.

Thanks

Mark

 

[John q]

But this sounds like a lot. Is this for a single 5ml dose per week?

Each 5ml dose will add between 0.08 to 0.1ppm of Fe. Lol I'm to tired to be specific 😅

Just to sidetrack... Iron chelates don't fall off a cliffedge at a given ph, contrary to popular belief.
The chelates will still encapsulate the iron at higher ph's, but it won't be just as effective

 

[Hufsa]

But this sounds like a lot. Is this for a single 5ml dose per week? How much would I add to use in a daily dose of 5ml to add an additional 0.1ppm Fe? Pretty sure I have this wrong.

The weekly targets people quote are so that we can compare fertilizer regimes no matter if the person doses daily or every two days, or so on.
To convert your weekly target to a daily dose you should divide by 7 when you enter your target into rotala calculator.
So if you want to dose 5ml daily, then that daily dose should add ~0.0143 ppm Fe. That will make your weekly total 0.1 ppm Fe

 

[MichaelJ]

The chelates will still encapsulate the iron at higher ph's, but it won't be just as effective

I generally agree, but it is worth noting that the commonly used EDTA chelate do indeed fall off a cliff if your sitting in the >7-8 pH range, which is very common especially for low-tech users, and dose fairly moderate amounts of Fe - I think this explains a lot of the Iron deficiency posts we see around here. Ideally you want your water to be slightly acidic <7 pH - somewhere around 6.5 pH is even better.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Karacticus]

Each 5ml dose will add between 0.08 to 0.1ppm of Fe. Lol I'm to tired to be specific 😅

This is what I was getting at, thanks. Wasn't sure if it was the total for the week to be split, or a daily 5ml dose. So I'll work with this and see how I get on. And thanks for clarifying the chelates position - understood.

The weekly targets people quote are so that we can compare fertilizer regimes no matter if the person doses daily or every two days, or so on.
To convert your weekly target to a daily dose you should divide by 7 when you enter your target into rotala calculator.
So if you want to dose 5ml daily, then that daily dose should add ~0.0143 ppm Fe. That will make your weekly total 0.1 ppm Fe

Thanks, I do understand I need to divide by seven for the daily dose, but I was getting confused with the calculator and whether the 'add 5ml of that mix' was per week to be divided or the daily dose already. But that is the daily dose, got it. My next point of confusion is that @Happi suggested adding 6.66g Fe DTPA 11% for a 0.2ppm target whereas using the Rotala Calculator for EI Daily I add 27g for a 0.1ppm target.

8.86 gram Solufeed Sodium Free TEC Mixed in 500 ml, 20 ml per 293 Liter
6.66 gram Fe DTPA 11%
4.28 gram Mn EDTA 13%
29.7 gram MgSO4*7H2O

Fe 0.2
Mn 0.1
B 0.0111
Cu 0.00278
Zn 0.014
Mo 0.001813
Mg 0.4
S 0.5

Sorry to be such a pain. But can someone just confirm that 27g in a 500ml solution, dosed at 5ml daily would be okay and would give me a 0.1ppm boost of Fe please? Or confirm it is wrong?

I do appreciate everyone's time, so thank you!

 

[John q]

@Happi suggested adding 6.66g Fe DTPA 11% for a 0.2ppm target

The numbers happi gave you will be the combined FE amount for Dtpa and solufeed tec. ie the full amount for his recipe.

If you want a stand alone 500ml solution of Dtpa fe 11% and want to dose 5ml each day then add 3.81 grams, will give you a total weekly dose of 35mls, which will add 0.1 fe WEEKLY.

Adding 27g to a 500ml solution, dosing 5ml a day will raise the FE by 0.1ppm every day, ie 0.7 ppm per week.

 

[Karacticus]

The numbers happi gave you will be the combined FE amount for Dtpa and solufeed tec. ie the full amount for his recipe.

If you want a stand alone 500ml solution of Dtpa fe 11% and want to dose 5ml each day then add 3.81 grams, will give you a total weekly dose of 35mls, which will add 0.1 fe WEEKLY.

Adding 27g to a 500ml solution, dosing 5ml a day will raise the FE by 0.1ppm every day, ie 0.7 ppm per week.

Thank you. This finally makes sense to me! 🙌

 

[Karacticus]

So the jungle tank is growing in stock I now have:

12 black neons
4 cardinal tetras
10 otocinclus
3 siamese algae eater
19 Amano shrimp
10 zebra nerites

Despite this, there are still times when I barely see any of them 😅. I have lost a single shrimp from an online delivery the day after it arrived. Everything else seems pretty happy and healthy. The otos and SAE tend to come out when lights are out.

All the diatoms have gone - hurray! - and the tank is looking pretty decent I think. Some plants aren't particularly growing much, so I'm thinking of options to prove flow nearer to the substrate.

The salvinia is growing faster l than I can keep up with. I'm scooping netfuls of the stuff and plan to get rid of most of it eventually.

Updated photos...

Loving it!

 

[Karacticus]

Just some updated photos. I've removed most of the salvinia and thinking of ditching altogether. My Columbian Tetras appear to have settled down somewhat and most of the fish seem happy exploring the tank - only the otocinclus seem to hide all day. Found an Amano Shrimp in my bucket after cleaning my pre-filter, no idea how she got there. Guessing got sucked in to the glass surface skimmer.

On that subject, I've given up on the glass surface skimmer. Can't do anything to stop it sucking air in and gurgling, so will be flogging it if anyone wants one. Really selling it, there! Any recommendations on plugin versions? I need one with a decent cable length. Tried the Ehiem, but the cable is very short.

And lastly, have added a pair of Apistogramma viejita 2. My new favourite fish with amazing colours on the male, who my kids have named 'Ian'.

On the lookout for some nice Corys - maybe the Venezuelan Blacks (I think) and Rummynose Tetras next!