Consistency Deficiency

[Hufsa]

Re read my original post, I never mentioned bba.. 😀

You're cleared from my wrath this time John 😘 😘

I agree with you that there seems to be some sort of critical mass event around that time.
I havent been able to go through it fully yet (need a bit of time) but I think a timeline from that period might help me at least get a rough idea of what caused the massive bloom.
Like you, I think it could have been a snowball effect.
I started what im calling "the SNAFU timeline", ill plot everything down in chronological order, compare it with the pictures and see if I can tell where the snowball started going for real.

But first I gotta sort out a few things in the here and now 😄
So ill probably continue on the timeline later this week


My water change weekends are usually divided into two days, I prepare the water on Saturday and then do the change on Sunday.
Ive got the barrel filled and remineralized (carefully weighed to 30 ppm Ca, 10 ppm Mg for da nerdz).
But I need to make a new batch of macro and im trying to at least get the work started today, and then I can finish tomorrow morning if my brain starts getting too smooth.

 

[_Maq_]

like?

You're overlooking the flaw: Nitrifying bacteria NEVER breakdown organic matter.

 

[Hufsa]

You're overlooking the flaw: Nitrifying bacteria NEVER breakdown organic matter.

I appreciate both of you very much but I would really prefer if this continues in a new thread, I think it would better for discussion and that way we wont get the journal and the bacteria stuff mixed together 😘

 

[Hufsa]

Today while I worked on other stuff in the background, I got a full* PH profile done 😊
(*Well, full enough, I dont need to be there to physically watch the CO2 turn on at the crack of dawn 😋).

Time: PH: Notes:
06 00 N/A Skimmer off, CO2 on
08 00 7.02
08 30 6.98
09 00 6.95
09 30 6.94 Light ramp start
10 00 6.93 Light on full
10 30 6.92
11 00 6.92
11 30 6.92
12 00 6.92
12 30 6.93 Plants get going?
13 00 6.94
13 30 6.94
14 00 6.95
14 30 6.95
15 00 6.96
15 30 6.96
16 00 6.97
16 30 6.98
17 00 6.99
17 30 6.99
18 00 7.00 Light ramp start
18 15 N/A CO2 off (after today im moving it to 18 00)
18 30 7.05 Light off, skimmer on
19 00 7.14

It seems pretty solid to me, stays nicely within 0.1 variation. The lid was off the tank for a couple of quick occasions mid photoperiod, but it doesnt seem to have bothered the tank.
Depending on how picky I am, it looks like I could shave off a bit of the CO2 ramp up time.
Not sure whether to consider below 7.0 "dropped enough" on this profile, or when it stabilizes at 6.92. 🤔
Im also curious that it rises slowly throughout the photoperiod. I thought PH profiles usually drop slowly? Or am I totally misremembering that?

Im a little bit unsure of the degassed sample. There is a shallow container in the kitchen that says "degas" on it, but I honestly cant remember if it was sampled from yesterday's tank water, or if it was grabbed this morning In our poorly ventilated kitchen this sample read 8.15. I let the PH pen sit in it for a good while before I took the reading. That would be a difference of 1.23.
Since I wasnt sure when this first sample was taken, and I also wanted something actively degassed with outside air, I grabbed a new one.
Shook it in a container outside, letting uhhhh.. "fresh city air" in a few times between shakings.
I cant remember what the deal is with 3 ppm, 4 ppm or whatever city/global warming is doing to CO2 but this sample read 8.6 a few moments after I got inside again with it.
I let it sit on the counter in the same sh*tty kitchen for a bit, when I came back it was 8.55. Another while passes, 8.41. I knew the air in our apartment was stanky
If 8.6 is the maximum outgassed value, the total drop today was 1.68. TBH I dont really care that much any more which particular one it is, its stable and thats the important part.
So far it seems that the makeshift combo of Jebao Overcompensator-5000 and the noisy Yidao reactor might be just fine for the tank for the time being.

Now I have to make sure the day to day stability is good too (Thanks @22802 for making me more aware of this aspect of stability 😊)
Im a little confused though, because I did get a partial profile done yesterday, before it was interrupted by errands.

11 03 2023
Time: PH: Notes:
07 00 N/A Skimmer off, CO2 on
09 30 N/A Light ramp start
10 00 N/A Light on full
11 23 6.14
12 00 6.16
12 30 6.17
13 00 6.18
13 30 6.21
14 00 6.22
17 30 N/A CO2 off
17 44 6.4
18 00 6.46 Light ramp start
18 30 6.56 Light off, skimmer on
19 00 6.67
19 30 6.77
20 00 6.87
01 00 7.54

That one seemed to ride a solid bit lower than this one ?
Unfortunately I didnt catch the time of the drop or the level before the gas turned off, missed it by like 16 minutes 😅
Small note, yesterday the gas came on an hour later than today, that 3 hour ramp time is what it has had since I switched from CO2 spray bar to Yidao Reactor.
CO2 also was set to turn off at 17:30, but I see that with this setup the levels rise again rapidly after the gas turns off, but that was also changed for today.

Its possible that the water level was slightly higher yesterday (lower offgassing), thats the only way I can really make sense of it.
(I dont remember if I topped it off either after, heck. That would have added some fresh KH too).

Speaking of that day to day stability, in that fateful november month I also got an AutoTopOff 😃👍
Yesterday I picked up a nice 25 liter water barrel, so I should set up the ATO as soon as practical, so it can keep my water level consistent. (Probably wont fill the barrel all the way for safety reasons).
The custom lids have helped massively with evaporation, but they cant do anything about me stealing a liter of tank water here and there for various shenanigans.
The ATO is gonna be a lifesaver in the summer months 😊

 

[Hanuman]

Dipping the entire plant in a Hydrogen Peroxide bath is quite an effective but expensive method, but I suppose justifiable for an expensive Buce. And maybe you can try with a less preciouss plant first....

Not sure that's a good idea specially on bucep. Roots are quite sensitive to these chemicals and will burn quite instantly. What I do is I put H2O2 in a small pray bottle and only spray the affected areas avoiding the root system. I have tried all anti-algae there is out there and the only commercial one I vouch for so far it's the one from Denis, APT fix. It is truly effective and I spot dose it in the tank. H2O2 work very well too and use it too but noticed that sometimes very old BBA is quite resistant to it for some reason.

I know BBA eradication is not your objective right now @Hufsa but the day you decide to eradicate it think about this post .

Ever since I switched from Ascorbic Acid to Citric Acid, I have been getting these floaty particles in my ferts towards the end of the two month period I make them for.
Im wondering if this is bacteria feeding on the citric acid, it seems to be known for being delicious.. (?)

I think both acids have nothing to do with the precipitation/particles you are seeing. I have used both and never seen such precipitation or particulates floating around. IMO this has to do more with the actual compounds that you are using. It could be that they are contaminated with something.

Not sure whether to consider below 7.0 "dropped enough" on this profile, or when it stabilizes at 6.92. 🤔

If you are using a pen, then there is no point in getting worked up with these numbers. You simply will never get the same results. To me these pens are so unreliable that I don't use them anymore (mostly because I know the probe is nearly dead). I mean it's fine to have an overall idea but if you really want to be sure of your PH profile then go for a double junction PH probe and one that is permanently dipped in the water. I have been planing on buying one which also sends all the information to a server and creates nice graphs, but lack of fund availability have prevented me from doing so.

I let it sit on the counter in the same sh*tty kitchen for a bit, when I came back it was 8.55. Another while passes, 8.41. I knew the air in our apartment was stanky
If 8.6 is the maximum outgassed value, the total drop today was 1.68. TBH I dont really care that much any more which particular one it is, its stable and thats the important part.

This bothers me. Why is it so high considering you are using RO? (I assume you are since you are fully remineralizing). Degassed it should not be ~PH 8 or more. Something is off here. Are you adding carbonates in the water?

Time: PH: Notes:
06 00 N/A Skimmer off, CO2 on
08 00 7.02
08 30 6.98
09 00 6.95
09 30 6.94 Light ramp start
10 00 6.93 Light on full

This looks off to me too. Even if we don't have the PH at 6am the PH drops a meager 0.09PH in the span of 2 hours (between 8am and 10am). So either your PH drop very very aggressively between 6am and 8am and then basically stabilizes and reaches its peak at around 8am, either there is something off. It would be important to have the PH prior CO2 goes on. I don't personally use the degased PH value by leaving water outside the tank, but rather make a PH test just before CO2 goes on. Why you may ask? Well that's because there is enough surface agitation and flow for me to consider that water is closed to being 100% degassed prior CO2 injection. In fact I did the test a few times and water that was left outside the tank was really not that much different from the water inside the tank.
Also normally you should see a slight increase in PH value once lights go on as plants start absorbing CO2.

@Hufsa I've read and re read your journal today and kept homing in on a period between late August and early September, this to me is when things seemed to take a definite turn for the worse, other than the ongoing chlorosis issue, although even that seemed to be improving at this point.

I don't proclaim to know exactly why this happed, pointers could be changes to the ferts, reduced or skipping water changes, the algaecide you used, medication for the shrimp or removing the substrate, or maybe a combination of all these created a snowball effect.

Like most of my suggestions we should always take them with a large pinch of salt, but at least I thought I'd make you aware of it, maybe you'll remember something around this time and help connect the dots,

Either way I think what the tank is screaming for is a period of stability, to that end I agree with Maq what better way to start this than with a couple of big water changes, obviously if your feeling up to it.

I agree with @John q here. Massive water changes would be a starter followed by a mid EI dosing. If it was me I would front load except for the micros, dosed daily. I wouldn't get into the low K thing, really.

Edit: @Hufsa, what’s the reason behind shutting on/off the surface skimmer? I used to do that years ago and IME it created more problems due to outgassing fluctuations. Leaving it on 24/7 stabilizes everything. The faster co2 outgases the better since you can add more and have CO2 peak levels faster which is what you want.

 

[Hufsa]

I think both acids have nothing to do with the precipitation/particles you are seeing. I have used both and never seen such precipitation or particulates floating around. IMO this has to do more with the actual compounds that you are using. It could be that they are contaminated with something.

Hmm I will have to look into this more. But most of my salts are either analytical grade, from Solufeed, or APC Pure. But I might be using the phosphate from AquaPlantsCare still, i know the latter is closer to technical grade.

double junction PH probe and one that is permanently dipped in the water. I have been planing on buying one which also sends all the information to a server and creates nice graphs, but lack of fund availability have prevented me from doing so.

I don't have the funds either

This bothers me. Why is it so high considering you are using RO? (I assume you are since you are fully remineralizing). Degassed it should not be ~PH 8 or more. Something is off here. Are you adding carbonates in the water?

I don't have RO, its tap water, ~3 dKH. The water supply adds NaOH, could that be influencing things?
I call it remineralizing, but its really just adding a smidge Ca and more Mg.

This looks off to me too. Even if we don't have the PH at 6am the PH drops a meager 0.09PH in the span of 2 hours (between 8am and 10am). So either your PH drop very very aggressively between 6am and 8am and then basically stabilizes and reaches its peak at around 8am, either there is something off.

Pretty sure it drops pretty hard in those first two hours. My injection rate and offgassing is pretty serious (it feels that way to me at least)

It would be important to have the PH prior CO2 goes on.

Ill get up early one day and capture the pre CO2 ph and the full first part of the profile

enough surface agitation and flow for me to consider that water is closed to being 100% degassed prior CO2 injection. In fact I did the test a few times and water that was left outside the tank was really not that much different from the water inside the tank.

I just dont wanna assume anything y'know, on account of my tank not quite being right to put it mildly

Edit: @Hufsa, what’s the reason behind shutting on/off the surface skimmer?

Safety reasons, I wrote about it in an earlier post (im on phone now so cant find a link)

I used to do that years ago and IME it created more problems due to outgassing fluctuations. Leaving it on 24/7 stabilizes everything. The faster co2 outgases the better since you can add more and have CO2 peak levels faster which is what you want.

If its not on during the CO2 period, I dont really see how it would be a problem? The CO2 is tuned without it, and at night the tank outgasses even faster because of it. How would fluctuations outside of the CO2 period affect anything?

 

[Hanuman]

I don't have RO, its tap water, ~3 dKH. The water supply adds NaOH, could that be influencing things?

NaOH is a PH adjuster and will tend to raise PH. That and the KH is most probably why your PH is at 8 or more. We have no NaOH in our water supply here so hard for me to make conclusions. ~3 dKh is not a lot though but I wonder if NaOH isn't playing a negative role in all this. The chemist might be able to answer.

Pretty sure it drops pretty hard in those first two hours. My injection rate and offgassing is pretty serious (it feels that way to me at least)

In that case it looks ok to me. I see you have actually reduced to 3h the CO2 injection prior lights on. Considering your PH doesn't really drop that much after 8am, you could even drop that to 2 hours and save some CO2.

Ill get up early one day and capture the pre CO2 ph and the full first part of the profile

👍

If its not on during the CO2 period, I dont really see how it would be a problem? The CO2 is tuned without it, and at night the tank outgasses even faster because of it. How would fluctuations outside of the CO2 period affect anything?

Shutting down your skimmer when CO2 is on means you are allowing CO2 to accumulate in the water more and preventing it from escaping since biofilm forms and also prevents O2 to get in for the same reason. Think about it like a window fully opened or half closed. You want the least amount of resistance for gas exchange. No good reason to shut it down when CO2 in on other than just save electricity. This will benefit both fish and plants. Obviously if you have a very aggressive surface agitation then the skimmer is probably useless or redundant, but IME even with good surface agitation you can still get biofilm. Surface should be crystal clear 24/7 not 12/7.

I was cleaning the skimmer and wanted to see if I could get the electrical cord to run on the other side since it would be less in the way there. Unfortunately the cord had just about solidified after being in that position for a couple of years, and as soon as it was moved even slightly from its customary position the outer layer cracked and exposed some of the inner wires...

I found why. I understand but the same goes for any electrical device you add in a tank. They need maintenance and sometimes changing. I have 3 of those exact same skimmers. I buy a new one every 2 years for safety reasons. Don't want to shocked one day having my hand deep in the water!

 

[Hufsa]

NaOH is a PH adjuster and will tend to raise PH. That and the KH is most probably why your PH is at 8 or more. We have no NaOH in our water supply here so hard for me to make conclusions. ~3 dKh is not a lot though but I wonder if NaOH isn't playing a negative role in all this. The chemist might be able to answer.

I would love to get more answers about NaOH in all of this, I havent come across much information about how it affects our particular use of PH readings for CO2.
It doesnt help for NaOH research that my grasp on PH is still a little bit iffy. For some reason when my brain sees the word proton or too many pluses or minuses in a sentence, it just goes blank
Ive tried many times but it just wont go in the brain 😅

In that case it looks ok to me. I see you have actually reduced to 3h the CO2 injection prior lights on. Considering your PH doesn't really drop that much after 8am, you could even drop that to 2 hours and save some CO2.

Sorry the post was structured badly (reverse). It was 3 hours for the days leading up to yesterday, but yesterday it was running 4 hours for ramp because I was a bit unsure how long the ramp actually needed to be.
Ill probably try 2 and a half hours ramp from tomorrow morning onwards, and see if the relative stabilization is still in a good area then. Would also make it a bit easier for me to catch the pre injection PH reading

I found why. I understand but the same goes for any electrical device you add in a tank. They need maintenance and sometimes changing. I have 3 of those exact same skimmers. I buy a new one every 2 years for safety reasons. Don't want to shocked one day having my hand deep in the water!

Nah it wasnt about the cable, its about the skimmers role in off gassing and how easily skimmers can stop working. (Full post)

My main concern is equipment failure or unfortunate events that can cause the CO2 levels to spike ...
... the different scenarios that can play out if "x thing gets stuck", "x thing is suddenly abnormal" and so on. ...

So I like a clear surface, thats established. What I dont like is running the skimmer while the CO2 is injected. There is only one reason for this.
Most skimmers have some very moveable parts. Moveable parts are more likely to fail, and skimmer failure is one of the accidents I see most commonly reported in aquascaping circles.
Skimmer failure also tends to lead to quite a lot of devastation compared to what a skimmer actually does (its function is not inherently vital for survival of fish).
But when your injection rate is set to account for the very vigorous offgassing produced by a skimmer, and your skimmer suddenly decides to not participate in that balance any more, you suddenly have a huge problem on your hands. The CO2 levels can spike high enough to be lethal, and this is not something I have just thought up in my mind, I have seen the tragic reports 😢
So while the extra offgassing and oxygen introduced with having a skimmer running concurrently with CO2 is a nice thing, for me I find the risk of a malfunction and spike too high compared to the benefits.
Ive been running my skimmer with the CO2 for a while now but it has never sat right with me, and im changing it to run only at night from now.
The skimmer is still likely to have a minor or major malfunction, but since it is not a direct part of the injection vs offgassing balance, its role is much less critical.
Now it only has to keep the surface clean, and if it malfunctions, the surface scum will likely need several days to build up before it has a chance to impact anything.

I hope that explains it better?
After I changed to running like this I also found a way to let shrimp get out of the skimmer, which has been a huge relief for me because I dont need to prevent them from entering or rescue them constantly.
Not having to prevent them from entering the skimmer also means I can use the default coarse intake slots on the skimmer, which makes it more effective at removing surface film. (To be clear im running the SunSun skimmer again)

Shutting down your skimmer when CO2 is on means you are allowing CO2 to accumulate in the water more and preventing it from escaping since biofilm forms and also prevents O2 to get in for the same reason. Think about it like a window fully opened or half closed. You want the least amount of resistance for gas exchange. No good reason to shut it down when CO2 in on other than just save electricity. This will benefit both fish and plants. Obviously if you have a very aggressive surface agitation then the skimmer is probably useless or redundant, but IME even with good surface agitation you can still get biofilm. Surface should be crystal clear 24/7 not 12/7.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. As long as the surface is completely clear in the morning, I believe the minute build up of surface film during the photoperiod before the skimmer turns back on again in the evening, is totally inconsequential.
If someones tank builds up enough surface film for it to be a problem in less than 12 hours, I think there would be some serious other problems going on that should probably be addressed first.

 

[Hanuman]

Nah it wasnt about the cable, its about the skimmers role in off gassing and how easily skimmers can stop working. (Full post)

Never had a skimmer stop. Not once and I have owned 5, but hey, as the say goes, your mileage may vary.

Skimmer failure also tends to lead to quite a lot of devastation compared to what a skimmer actually does (its function is not inherently vital for survival of fish).
But when your injection rate is set to account for the very vigorous offgassing produced by a skimmer, and your skimmer suddenly decides to not participate in that balance any more, you suddenly have a huge problem on your hands. The CO2 levels can spike high enough to be lethal, and this is not something I have just thought up in my mind, I have seen the tragic reports 😢

You seem to contradict yourself here between above post and below post.

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree here. As long as the surface is completely clear in the morning, I believe the minute build up of surface film during the photoperiod before the skimmer turns back on again in the evening, is totally inconsequential.
If someones tank builds up enough surface film for it to be a problem in less than 12 hours, I think there would be some serious other problems going on that should probably be addressed first.

I wish the film formation during the photoperiod was totally inconsequential but frankly that's quite the contrary in a high tech tank where the overall metabolism of the tank is in overdrive. You have organics in the water constantly breaking down and bacteria multiplying, night and day. Having film form within a few hours is not abnormal and is expected and does not reflect a problem with the tank.

You want that surface to be crystal clear at any given moment and specially when you start injecting and during the photoperiod. If you are going to work with CO2 it is my opinion that you need to do all you can to maximize its effectiveness and minimize its dangers . IMO skimmers should always be used and integrated as a part of a CO2 injected tank and more critically on higher intensity tanks. If you are afraid that the skimmer stops then simply don't push CO2 to the limits and stay below in a moderate zone.

 

[_Maq_]

this sample read 8.6 a few moments after I got inside again with it.
I let it sit on the counter in the same sh*tty kitchen for a bit, when I came back it was 8.55. Another while passes, 8.41.

There's a difference in temperature. Also, it's quite normal that CO2 level in an apartment air is elevated. It's due to humans breathing, sometimes due to heating (burning gas, coal, wood), and always due to CO2 injection which some hobbyists perform with their fish tanks - perhaps you've heard something about that.
So, even if you "degas" the water, the CO2 content remains in equilibrium with CO2 content in the air surrounding it. More CO2 => lower pH.

I would love to get more answers about NaOH

In the water, it dissociates: NaOH => Na+ + OH-. OH- is the source of basicity, i.e. increasing pH.
Following that, it meets dissolved CO2: Na+ + OH- + CO2 => Na+ + HCO3-. This way the basicity gets neutralized, but alkalinity is increased.
I know you hate pluses and minuses. So, in simple terms: Forget about NaOH. It's gone before the water arrives in your home. You've got some sodium in your tap water and its alkalinity is about 3 °dKH. That's it.

 

[Hufsa]

There's a difference in temperature. Also, it's quite normal that CO2 level in an apartment air is elevated. It's due to humans breathing, sometimes due to heating (burning gas, coal, wood), and always due to CO2 injection which some hobbyists perform with their fish tanks - perhaps you've heard something about that.
So, even if you "degas" the water, the CO2 content remains in equilibrium with CO2 content in the air surrounding it. More CO2 => lower pH.

There is some kind of temperature compensation built into the pen, I dont know if it makes the temp difference totally void or not?
Im definitely aware the CO2 levels inside houses are higher than outside. I think our apartment is not very good for humans. We have mold and bad ventilation, and we skimp on opening windows because the heating is so costly 😬
...I think ive heard something about some kind of "CO2 injection" yes 🤔 I have actually pondered before what it means for the CO2 levels in the room, it wont be good. I dont think it will make me grow any faster either 🤭

...This way the basicity gets neutralized, but alkalinity is increased.
So, in simple terms: Forget about NaOH. It's gone before the water arrives in your home. You've got some sodium in your tap water and its alkalinity is about 3 °dKH. That's it.

This I understand 😃😃 Thanks for that Maq 🥰

 

[Hufsa]

Now I have to make sure the day to day stability is good too
Im a little confused though, because I did get a partial profile done yesterday, before it was interrupted by errands.
...
That one seemed to ride a solid bit lower than this one ?

So much for bloody day to day stability
Was not able to do a profile today, but checked the PH mid photoperiod and it was 7.2
That wont do at all
The day to day stability needs some serious looking at.
Wont help to have a stable profile from morning to evening if the total level is different the next day.
I assume at this point that its the slightly different water levels in the tank thats causing this. A small variation in water level means a fairly decent variation in surface agitation from the spray bar.
In order to not mince words; I need to get my sh*t together
Just checking the water level each day and topping up with a jug would really be all thats needed. Its so frustrating not to have the functioning required to do such a simple routine
Because of this I really need to get that ATO set up sooner rather than later.

The water change sunday slipped through my grasp before I could actually do any water change, but I got it done today.
Got some algae out of the tank, tidied up a few plants, the usual stuff.
No major changes to anything, same old front loading solution used.
Any modifications to the fertilizers will have to be prepared before the next one, I needed more time but this water change needed doing.

I did change a serious amount of water though. Drained the tank all the way down to a few centimeters above the substrate.
Aquael filter was cleaned, floss replaced (still not very dirty). I left the canister empty until the tank got filled up again, meaning the system got even more new water.
The volume of this canister contributes a not insignificant amount of liters to the total.

While I was draining the old water out of the tank, I saw even more dead shrimp 😥 Three dead today, one more died during, and one is acting dazed that will probably not be alive in the morning.
I cant tell if its the CO2 variations or the fertilizer thats killing them, or something else entirely. They have been doing poorly for a while now.. But the deaths definitely seem to have increased.
At this rate there wont be any shrimp left, quite soon.
Because I dont know if the CO2 levels are too high for them, AND because I topped up the tank to the full amount (less offgassing), I adjusted the needle valve down slightly.
The Boraras (fish) have been super perky and dont seem to be bothered by anything, so I havent been able to tell if the CO2 could have been too high.
But im starting to wonder if the Boraras would almost be happy just swimming around in pure acid, in relation to the habitats they live in in the wild.
Otos havent said anything either, and they are usually good about letting me know if something is amiss.
Crustaceans have a different kind of blood that is not as good at taking up oxygen as our blood is, so they are less tolerant of low oxygen or high CO2.
It could also be possible that something like micros are bothering them, I genuinely dont know.

Either way, they might not like large water changes, but in this case I thought it would be the lesser of two evils to get that water out and replace it with some that I have a reasonable idea of the contents of.
I tuned the autodose amount of the micro solutions down a little bit, Fe from 0.5 to 0.428, Mn from 0.25 to 0.214, B & Zn from 0.033 to 0.0253 and so on. (For my own notes, from 7, 7, 30ml to 6, 6, 23ml)

Ill just have to see what happens now, but im hoping any of these two band aids will help the shrimp a little bit. I feel very sorry for them 😓

Im feeling quite worn out by all this activity, so I suspect I wont be able to do a full PH profile tomorrow. But ill definitely pay attention to the drop and where it settles.
If it is acceptable then I need to make sure its the same every day going forward.
Based on how fast it seems to drop I shortened the ramp to 3 hours. Can revise when I have a better overview of the situation and have actually got things properly nailed down.

Got the ATO halfway set up while the water change process was running, hoping to finish it tomorrow.

Sorry about the wordy post with no pictures, I didnt take many today but I guess you can enjoy this one of Bucephalandra Blue Green beginning to melt a bunch of leaves 😟

 

[xZaiox]

A small variation in water level means a fairly decent variation in surface agitation from the spray bar.

I found this to be very true when I was using an inline atomizer, it resulted in pretty drastic swings with the water Co2 level. I find since I've swapped to using a reactor, the surface agitation doesn't seem to make as much of a difference (within reason).

Just checking the water level each day and topping up with a jug would really be all thats needed. Its so frustrating not to have the functioning required to do such a simple routine

I do this myself, and it's just as you put it - a routine. When a good routine gets going it's very simple because you just do it on autopilot without even thinking about it. As with any routine, I think it takes a conscious effort initially, and the easier you make it for yourself, the easier it'll be to follow through. I keep a bucket of deionised water with a cup inside near my tank, and I top it up just before feeding the fish. I think I may have conditioned the fish to understand this, because as soon as I start to top up the water, they all go crazy and fearlessly come up to the cup lol.

My tank is from Waterbox aquariums, so it has their little logo laser-etched in to the right corner. I use it as a guide to fill up the tank level so that it just slightly underlines their logo. I guess this probably creates some good stability for aeration levels.

While I was draining the old water out of the tank, I saw even more dead shrimp 😥 Three dead today, one more died during, and one is acting dazed that will probably not be alive in the morning.

Sorry to hear this

I cant tell if its the CO2 variations or the fertilizer thats killing them, or something else entirely. They have been doing poorly for a while now.. But the deaths definitely seem to have increased.

I run my CO2 with yellow drop checkers and I have a thriving colony that keeps breeding. I think they seem to be pretty tolerant of CO2 personally. I wouldn't even say that I have "high" surface aeration either, more "medium". My intake does have a skimmer attached though, so the water never has a film on, I don't know how much of a practical difference it makes. I would find it odd that your shrimp are all dying off if your fish seem fine? My fish will show signs of CO2 distress before my shrimp die from it.

Otos havent said anything either, and they are usually good about letting me know if something is amiss.

I don't currently have otos in my tank, but on my very first scape (which looked atrocious ), I also used CO2 and did have otos then - I found them to be good Co2 indicators as well, they seemed to react before most of the others.

Either way, they might not like large water changes, but in this case I thought it would be the lesser of two evils to get that water out and replace it with some that I have a reasonable idea of the contents of.

I've heard loads of people say this, but it really hasn't been my experience. I do large water changes all the time and I've never found dead shrimp from it. The only time I see dead shrimp are because my fish apparently find them very tasty, and they must not think I feed them enough (spoiler: I do). I don't suppose there's any foul play in your tank? As in your fish killing them?

 

[Hufsa]

I found this to be very true when I was using an inline atomizer, it resulted in pretty drastic swings with the water Co2 level. I find since I've swapped to using a reactor, the surface agitation doesn't seem to make as much of a difference (within reason).

Huh, strange. I wonder why?

I run my CO2 with yellow drop checkers and I have a thriving colony that keeps breeding. I think they seem to be pretty tolerant of CO2 personally. I wouldn't even say that I have "high" surface aeration either, more "medium". My intake does have a skimmer attached though, so the water never has a film on, I don't know how much of a practical difference it makes. I would find it odd that your shrimp are all dying off if your fish seem fine? My fish will show signs of CO2 distress before my shrimp die from it.

Hrmm that makes CO2 less likely I suppose. I think they were breeding last summer, and the CO2 would have been fairly high then, but probably not possible spike high.
I dont really know how high it might have been, but it does seem strange that the fish seem so content.

I don't suppose there's any foul play in your tank? As in your fish killing them?

My stocking consists of 5-6 kuhlii (/noodles), two zebra otos and a group of 13 very jolly Boraras brigittae. The kuhliis arent even interested in dead shrimp most of the time, and the other two absolutely no way. The Boraras can barely hunt down a pellet.
I saw that dazed shrimp die before my very eyes, it was entirely intact and not being harassed by a fish, so I would say no chance.
Now that I think about it, shouldnt the shrimp crowd the surface layers / floating plants if they dont get enough oxygen?

 

[Hanuman]

Was not able to do a profile today, but checked the PH mid photoperiod and it was 7.2
That wont do at all
The day to day stability needs some serious looking at.
Wont help to have a stable profile from morning to evening if the total level is different the next day.
I assume at this point that its the slightly different water levels in the tank thats causing this. A small variation in water level means a fairly decent variation in surface agitation from the spray bar.

It is possible if the surface agitation increases greatly therefore outgassing CO2 faster. I always keep a black mark on the side of my tank to monitor the level but also for WC purposes.
This said your PH variation could also be due to CO2 leaking somewhere so having a look at all the CO2 tubing connections but also the regulator might be a good idea. You can use foam. Finally since you are using a PH pen, and as I said above, unless you are calibrating it each day, it is highly possible that the pen is drifting. The older they are the faster the drift.

Just checking the water level each day and topping up with a jug would really be all thats needed

I think that's pushing it. A few 100's ml won't make much of a difference but there is nothing bad in doing it daily. I usually top up every 2-3 days.

While I was draining the old water out of the tank, I saw even more dead shrimp 😥 Three dead today, one more died during, and one is acting dazed that will probably not be alive in the morning.
I cant tell if its the CO2 variations or the fertilizer thats killing them, or something else entirely. They have been doing poorly for a while now.. But the deaths definitely seem to have increased.

Probably CO2. I doubt it's your ferts. According to your PH profile done a few days ago you are doing a -1.5/-1.6 PH drop. I looked at your drop checker a few pages back and it's quite yellow. That's fine if you have a lot of plant mass but it's not your case so perhaps might be a good idea to tone it down with the CO2.

Now that I think about it, shouldnt the shrimp crowd the surface layers / floating plants if they dont get enough oxygen?

Not necessarily. If plants are producing oxygen on the lower parts you may have some pockets of water which are richer in oxygen but then you also have high level of CO2. Another possibility, your spray bar flow might be keeping shrimps from going up. I don't know the exact flow pattern of your tank so I'm just making an assumption.

 

[Hufsa]

Thanks for the feedback @Hanuman, appreciated 😊 I will definitely tone the CO2 down. A 1.6 drop was never my intention.
I hope I can get it stable and a suitable level very soon.

Would you recommend I lower the light intensity a notch for a few days while I try to get this stuff straightened out?

 

[Hanuman]

Would you recommend I lower the light intensity a notch for a few days while I try to get this stuff straightened out?

I wouldn't do that specially if you've had that lighting intensity for a while. Always change one thing at a time. You just need to dial the CO2 a notch back. Nothing major. When you are set with your new ferts, simply make a good trim of the plants. You don't want the plants to be constantly adapting to CO2, lights, fert availability or other parameters all at the same time.

 

[xZaiox]

Huh, strange. I wonder why?

With the inline atomizer, I think I just had too many bubbles rising up to the surface and escaping, and now that I don't have many (due to the reactor), I seem to be able to adjust the agitation much more without affecting the co2 levels. This is only within reason though, if I swap to a very high agitation then it does drop the co2 levels.

Hrmm that makes CO2 less likely I suppose. I think they were breeding last summer, and the CO2 would have been fairly high then, but probably not possible spike high.
I dont really know how high it might have been, but it does seem strange that the fish seem so content.

Yeah this is what confuses me. Do the fish breathe much faster than without CO2? I've kind of been adjusting my CO2 by using their breathing rate as a guide. I find I can push my CO2 higher before they head to the surface, but I wanted to keep it at a level where their respiration isn't effected as much.

The kuhliis arent even interested in dead shrimp most of the time

Those noodles aren't as innocent as you make out, I swear 😂😂 in my first tank, I witnessed one of these noodles take down a live medium-sized cherry shrimp with my own eyes. I was both shocked and impressed.

I saw that dazed shrimp die before my very eyes, it was entirely intact and not being harassed by a fish, so I would say no chance.

If they're acting dazed, then yeah that's a little off.

Now that I think about it, shouldnt the shrimp crowd the surface layers / floating plants if they dont get enough oxygen?

I'm of mixed opinion on this one. When I was really pushing my CO2 even further before, and saw fish distress, I saw mixed behaviours in the shrimp. Some did head to the upper layers, especially the amano shrimp (they were protesting much more), but a lot of the cherry shrimp just became kind of listless and didn't really move much.

 

[Hufsa]

One thing about my recent PH profile has been really bugging me..
The KH in my tap is 3, I didn't measure it that exact day but its 3 every time I check.
Tank water was around 2.5 dKH, it was recently tested.
But the degassed water sample that was shook outside ended up reading PH 8.6.
Doesn't that seem like an unnaturally high PH for 3 KH water???
Shouldnt the atmospheric equilibrium result in a PH around 7?
@_Maq_ you said the NaOH has been deactivated. Are you 100% sure?
What other reason might there be for such a high PH?
@dw1305 do you know?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But the degassed water sample that was shook outside ended up reading PH 8.6.
Doesn't that seem like an unnaturally high PH for 3 KH water???

Do you know what the conductivity of the water is? If it is really low (less than ~50 microS (30 ppm "TDS")) then the pH will just be a movable feast. You could add a <"neutral salt"> (NaCl or similar) to raise the conductivity, but I just ignore pH in really soft water.

@_Maq_ you said the NaOH has been deactivated. Are you 100% sure?

You will have added OH- ions, but they are all in solution, because NaOH is a "strong base" and there is <"no alkaline buffer reserve">.

When you add a proton (H+) it will neutralise the hydroxide ion (OH-), because OH- and H+ together form H2O and bases are defined as "proton acceptors".

Shouldnt the atmospheric equilibrium result in a PH around 7?

Theoretically it is pH 7, (equal numbers of H+ and OH- ions from the <"self-ionization"> of water), but only if the water is degassed.

When atmospheric gases are present pure water (H2O) goes to pH 5.5 (<"because of dissolved CO2">) and is an electrical conductor, but a poor one (because of the extra H+ ions, which have also depressed the pH).

A conductivity meter would read about 2 - 3 microS, but these are minute amounts of ions. If you have a surplus of OH- ions the pH will rise (potentially well above pH8) but you still have very few ions. You can "overwhelm" the OH- ions by adding a small amount of H+ ions, if these come from a weak acid (like humic acid <"All the leaves are brown… — Seriously Fish">) they will produce an acid buffer and reduce the pH again. As you add ions, of either type, the conductivity will rise.

At 3 dKH you are pretty near the amount of carbonate hardness that will cause the pH to go to <"~pH 8, via the carbonate ~ CO2 equilibrium">. It maybe that the shaking incorporated enough <"extra oxygen to raise the pH">? and was the water <"much warmer than the air">?

........ but it was a pond and the water sample had a dissolved oxygen level of 180% (~20oC, 18mg/L DO) and a pH value of pH 10.5.

cheers Darrel