No idea what to do - poor plant health and algae

[greenbliss]

So a few months ago I had installed a spray bar along the back of the tank as well as an additional pump to help with water flow in my tank. It definitely helped at first but then the plants started to go back to how they were. The algae also returned minus the BBA. I am honestly losing motivation for the hobby (or at least losing motivation for underwater plant keeping) and find myself doing way less waterchanges and not caring for much other than keeping the fish fed and healthy. I previously had other aquariums which were extremely successful, algae free other than for the odd spot of diatoms on a dead leaf and had good plant growth and health. I used roughly the same care regime for them as I did for my current aquarium, however it does not seem to work for this aquarium and I have no idea why at all.

Details:
Tank size is 80x30x45cm

The tank is approximately a year old as I had dirted it which somewhat reset the tank.

Filtration is an Eheim Classic 600 with a spray bar along the back of the tank being the output. I also have a maxijet 400l/h pump in the right corner to increase flow in a dead spot.

Lighting is a default Fluval roma 125 light bar (8w). I have no idea what PAR output it has. It is on for approximately 10 hours each day.

Substrate is "pond plant potting soil" capped with a mixture of sand/fine gravel.

No CO2 dosing but I add easycarbo sometimes to help combat algae.

I use an EI mixture but simply dose less. I add around 10 mg/l nitrogen, 15 mg/l potassium and around 7 mg/l per dose which is usually after my water change. As far as micros I dissolve a tablespoon of micro mixture in 500ml of water and then add 10ml of that mixture per dose. This gives me roughly 0.1ppm iron per dose. It is EDTA chelated.

I do a 25 percent water change twice weekly (wednesday and sunday). I use R/O water remineralised with a DIY remineraliser recipe from James planted tank website. I use the R/O water because my tap water is absolutely awful. I also clean the filter whenever I notice reduced flow.

Plant list:
Cryptocoryne x Willisii
Cryptcoryne Usteriana
Cryprtocoryne Becketii
Cryptocoryne Wendtii
Cryptocoryne Balansae (Literally has barely grown, possibly due to softer water)
Amazon Swords
Anubias Barteri
Java ferns (Narrow variety)
Vallisneria Spiralis
Sagittaria Subuluta
Java moss

Inhabitants:
18 Cherry barbs
A pair of Laetacara Dorsigera
2 Amano shrimp

 

[MichaelJ]

@greenbliss You need to dial down the light intensity - way down - when it seems low - go lower! Not necessarily the hours...intensity is the culprit. And for a while, up the water changes to 60-70% twice a week.... Also, you need to clean up the tank - internal surfaces, equipment - siphon up all that dretitus - dead organic matter, poo, decaying plant matter etc. trim off those plant leaves that are already dying - they wont recover. Make sure you have no stale spots in the tank.... those are breeding grounds of algae. From what I can tell your fertilizer looks OK (except you didn't mention phosphate... or is that the 7mg/l ? of so then ok, otherwise you need phosphate in the mix as well). With patience - this will work. The tank is in bad shape quite frankly, but it can and will recover!

Also the tank seems perhaps a little overstocked... you can dial down the feeding a bit for a while perhaps - especially those Acara's are high octane messy eaters (highly entertaining though 🙂 ) - you may want to sell or give one of the pairs away - Cichlids generate a tremendous amount of waste.

EDIT: What is wrong with your tap water? if its hard water, just mix it with 50% RO water... given that this is a recovery operation I wouldn't be picky about water parameters - unless it could be harmful for the fish.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[greenbliss]

Hi there.

@greenbliss You need to dial down the light intensity - way down - when it seems low - go lower! Not necessarily the hours...intensity is the culprit. And for a while, up the water changes to 60-70% twice a week.... Also, you need to clean up the tank - internal surfaces, equipment - siphon up all that dretitus - dead organic matter, poo, decaying plant matter etc. trim off those plant leaves that are already dying - they wont recover. Make sure you have no stale spots in the tank.... those are breeding grounds of algae. From what I can tell your fertilizer looks OK (except you didn't mention phosphate... or is that the 7mg/l ? of so then ok, otherwise you need phosphate in the mix as well). With patience - this will work. The tank is in bad shape quite frankly, but it can and will recover!

Yeah honestly I did probably overlook cleanliness a lot. The reason I asked here is because I wanted someone to offer a fresh perspective so I could get some idea of what to do. Also indeed the 7mg/l is the phosphate.

Also the tank seems perhaps a little overstocked... you can dial down the feeding a bit for a while perhaps - especially those Acara's are high octane messy eaters (highly entertaining though 🙂 ) - you may want to sell or give one of the pairs away - Cichlids generate a tremendous amount of waste.

I took this into account when originally setting up this tank. My plan was that the tank would be a jungle tank tank which wouldn’t be trimmed often and this would obviously help manage the waste production. Also I don’t know if you tried to say that I have two pairs of Laetacara but it is only one pair and I do actually feed every other day rather than daily.

EDIT: What is wrong with your tap water? if its hard water, just mix it with 50% RO...

Fish would die after water changes without any previous signs of illness. A fishkeeper that lives on my street also had the exact same experience as me. When I got my RO filter I never had any such issues again.

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi there.

Yeah honestly I did probably overlook cleanliness a lot. The reason I asked here is because I wanted someone to offer a fresh perspective so I could get some idea of what to do.

Yes, well, you see, the above recommendations is pretty much what worked for me (and fairly consistent with the expert advice you will get around here) , I have been through the exact same situation as you - lack of maintainance, inadequate water change %, and way too much light vs. available CO2 - which I also don't inject. I hope it works out.

Also indeed the 7mg/l is the phosphate.

Good.

I took this into account when originally setting up this tank. My plan was that the tank would be a jungle tank tank which wouldn’t be trimmed often and this would obviously help manage the waste production. Also I don’t know if you tried to say that I have two pairs of Laetacara but it is only one pair and I do actually feed every other day rather than daily.

Yep I got the head count wrong on the Redbreast Dwarf Acara Cichlid (Laetacara Dorsigera) - I read it as two pairs - my bad 🙂

Fish would die after water changes without any previous signs of illness. A fishkeeper that lives on my street also had the exact same experience as me. When I got my RO filter I never had any such issues again.

Well, that settles it - It's all remineralized RO water then.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[PARAGUAY]

Looking at your plants after Michaels advice adding some fast growing stems will certainly help

 

[greenbliss]

Well I did have H. Polysperma and Dwarf Water lillies but they both got battered to death by the Laetacara and died due to poor health.

 

[PARAGUAY]

Well I did have H. Polysperma and Dwarf Water lillies but they both got battered to death by the Laetacara and died due to poor health.

Well if making changes the tank will Definetly benefit from healthy fast growers . You could even just place egeria as a floating plant and remove later if the other plants do well

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

You could even just place egeria as a floating plant and remove later if the other plants do well

I use <"Ceratopteris and Ceratophyllum"> like that.

You need to dial down the light intensity - way down - when it seems low - go lower!

That is why I like <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum)"> as a <"net curtain">. Floating plants aren't ever CO2 limited and <"they are adapted to bright tropical sun-light">, so you get their <"beneficial effect on water quality"> as well as more suitable light levels.

The other advantage is you can use the leaf colour and growth, of your floating plant, as a <"visual indicator of nutrient conditions">.

cheers Darrel

 

[greenbliss]

That is why I like <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum)"> as a <"net curtain">. Floating plants aren't ever CO2 limited and <"they are adapted to bright tropical sun-light">, so you get their <"beneficial effect on water quality"> as well as more suitable light levels.

True flloating plants don't do too well in my tank due to the flow setup as the spray bar pushes them about a bit too much. They also rot due to condensation from the lid.

I use <"Ceratopteris and Ceratophyllum"> like that.

I was going to order some online quite soon as I hadn't had any luck getting it in any physical shop. I also was hoping my dwarf lillies would have taken off and filled in a similar role but obviously they didn't do too well.

Cheers

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

True flloating plants don't do too well in my tank due to the flow setup as the spray bar pushes them about a bit too much.

You could <"try corralling them">?

They also rot due to condensation from the lid.

I'm always a bit dubious about this one, I have lids on all my tanks but it isn't a problem I've had. I wonder whether it is often because the plants aren't happy and start to decay.

cheers Darrel

 

[greenbliss]

I'm always a bit dubious about this one, I have lids on all my tanks but it isn't a problem I've had. I wonder whether it is often because the plants aren't happy and start to decay.

Yeah I'm pretty convinced it's because of that too. I have had floaters under lids in other tanks and they had no issues. I think they are just extra sensitive when they aren't the healthiest.

 

[MichaelJ]

True flloating plants don't do too well in my tank due to the flow setup as the spray bar pushes them about a bit too much. They also rot due to condensation from the lid.

They don't like to have the leaves soaked, say if water is hitting them from the spray bar all the time, however the condensation shouldn't be a problem. To repeat what @dw1305 already mentioned above. Both my tanks are covered with glass with about a 3 cm opening along the the back. It's definitely very humid between the surface and glass, but never noticed any rot on my frogbit either. Mine grow like crazy and look very good - probably somewhere around patch 4 on the leaf color chart, but the roots are not quite as long as I've seen others have them. They can be tricky to corral of you have a lot of surface movement, but it tend to get much easier when you have a bunch of them and the roots and leaves starts to intertwine a bit. Another option might be pennywort.
Cheers,
Michael

 

[greenbliss]

To be quite honest I'm more concerned about the flow physically damaging the roots of floating plants. My duckweed and frogbit were doing just OK until I introduced the spray bar and they literally disappeared within the space of a few days. They weren't very healthy though but didn't exactly have any discolouration and were quite nice and dark green.

 

[greenbliss]

So it is a few months later and there has not been much progress. Last night another Cherry barb died and I am honestly gutted, as well as unsure if I want to carry on with the hobby any longer. The plants are maybe a tiny bit healthier but they haven't improved hugely. I don't have much motivation to do water changes or maintenance as the effort does not pay off at all. Seriously considering quitting fishkeeping altogether. I had a small aquarium in a very similar location and gave it the exact same maintenance and the plants grew so well, yet this one gets the same maintenance as the smaller aquarium I previously had and doesn't do anything special. I really don't get it. There was a time where this one had good plant growth too but I don't get what is happening.

 

[Hufsa]

So it is a few months later and there has not been much progress. Last night another Cherry barb died and I am honestly gutted, as well as unsure if I want to carry on with the hobby any longer. The plants are maybe a tiny bit healthier but they haven't improved hugely. I don't have much motivation to do water changes or maintenance as the effort does not pay off at all. Seriously considering quitting fishkeeping altogether. I had a small aquarium in a very similar location and gave it the exact same maintenance and the plants grew so well, yet this one gets the same maintenance as the smaller aquarium I previously had and doesn't do anything special. I really don't get it. There was a time where this one had good plant growth too but I don't get what is happening.

Im sorry to hear that you are considering quitting, there are folks here who would help you if you are willing to give it another try.
I glossed through the thread and I couldnt find any confirmation that you tried turning your light down, have you tried this yet?
I used to be very good at growing algae and not so much plants, so I have been where you are. The majority of my algae growth came from too much light.
Im sorry if I missed this information, but is your light dimmable? If not, are you willing to try a bit of DIY to dim it down?

 

[greenbliss]

I just turned the lights down further to around 6 hours. I'm about to go to my LFS to grab some Amano shrimp and I'm going to order some new salts. I'm going to give it one more go. The light is dimmed to around 20 percent currently.

I am wondering if I my Eheim classic 600 might not be providing enough flow. Mulm is building up in the corners so I might pick up some really small pumps to add more water flow to the sides of the tank.

 

[Garuf]

I think you might be past the point of a straightforward rescue and a total restart might be the best course of action and I think if it were me, that's the route I'd take.

My instinct is that you just don't have the plant mass to get past the algae phase and with no fast growers and a rather organics heavy tank not aided by the pond substrate layer which could itself be very organics heavy.

If I were you I'd do this:
Strip everything back to nothing and deep clean, get rid of all but the newest healthiest growth of plants, put the fish in the biggest bucket you can and run the filter on it for a week or so while you rescape.

Replace the pond undersoil for a known quantity such as tropicas base layer or deponit mix, that way we can rule that out as a source of trouble.
Get my/your hands on as many healthy fast growing plants you can, hygro polysperma etc etc. Everything considered "low tech or easy" is going to help you get the density and plant health required to get through the algae. I don't think you can buy too much, just get lots with plenty of variety. E quadricosta, "classic" Crypts, hygro, sessifolia... you're looking to get 75% of the substrate covered in plants straight away. If I weren't "on the continent" I could give you enough to get you most of the way there, I'm sure there's hobbyists who would gladly send you some plants for cost of postage as it doesn't have to break the bank buying tissue culture etc.

I'd likely replace the spray bar with a jet pipe type outlet and have a look at the tubing and media to make sure the tubing is as short as it can be and the media isn't clogged or prone to clogging. I know discus breeders who will use nothing but sponge in a 2217 and if they can feed beefheart and all that then a planted tank can work with it too. I would move the wave maker facing the same way as the filter outlet or at substrate level pointing toward the inlet. In my experience having all the flow going the same way always works best but it isn't always possible.

Once the tank is back on it's feet, water change, water change, water change.
Feed lightly, keep filters clean, tubing etc.
I'd also set your light to 50% for 6 hour once you have a good plant density.
Ei is designed for dense planting and with co2 so you can probably get away with dosing as little as a 10th of the sugested dose at first.


Obviously, I can't guarantee that this will give you a perfect cake, but the recipe is one that works 90% of the time.

 

[CMooner]

It's been 2+ months since your tank pictures, can you post current pictures? Are you still using the original fertilizer, light, maintenance regimes?

 

[greenbliss]

Hi everyone I'm about to carry out a waterchange/deep tank clean + filter clean, afterwards I'll introduce some new Amano shrimp and pray they won't get eaten by my Laetacara. Then I'll give a quick update on the current maintenance schedule.

 

[greenbliss]

Right so from now on I'm going to keep the same care schedule. I'm going to do 50 percent water changes at least twice a week if possible. Pretty much keep everything how I was doing it a few months back but not the same as when I started to slack off a few weeks ago. roughly 1/10th EI dose weekly after a water change with a few doses of micronutrients over the course of the week, with liquid carbon addition every other day. Filter cleaning weekly and a "deep clean" (cleaning tubes, heaters etc) roughly monthly, or whenever it is needed. I attached some pictures so you guys can see with your own eyes the limited progress. I at least know there is way less algae and the BBA isn't really spreading anymore, with the plants looking a lot healthier (the new growth looks better at least). They also aren't covered in algae as much anymore. I feel like I just need to put in some hard work now to get it going in the right direction (and get some fast growing plants).