Still losing fish, is it co2?

[sciencefiction]

I think that unless you tested your water fairly regularly, you do not know exactly what and when was happening to the water and when.

There is no ideal TDS value. In terms of TDS I think of minimal accumulation between water changes when tap water TDS is taken as base reference. In your case you are adding fertilizers so I'd expect a much higher difference between tap and tank to be normal but you should not have a constantly increasing TDS. You should settle on some value based on how much you dose and how much your plants utilize from the amount you dose.

I did not suggest your water changes are the issue. It is the lack of buffering capacity of your water and the potential swings in chemistry, which maybe happening after or between water changes, hard to know unless you start monitoring your water very closely to figure out what's happening.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It is the lack of buffering capacity of your water and the potential swings in chemistry, which maybe happening after or between water changes, hard to know unless you start monitoring your water very closely to figure out what's happening.

KH is used up in nitrification

also add a bit of soda bicarbonate to the affected tank

I'm not sure that is going to help, it will raise dKH, but I don't think that is @Something Fishy's problem and it will add sodium (Na+) ions, that are going to adversely effect plant growth.

We also know that nitrification is much less dKH dependent than was thought because most of the nitrification in aquariums is done by Archaea, and they are much less pH and carbonate restricted then the bacteria that were thought to oxidise ammonia.

If the OP does want to add some dKH they could use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) or just add a bit of <"oyster shell chick grit" or cuttlebone">.

The final reason would be that the fish that have been lost are fish that live in water with very low TDS values, which naturally vary in pH. You aren't getting big changes in water chemistry, you are getting changes in pH, precisely because there aren't many solutes in the water.

More interesting is the gills, which appear very red and open (swollen or flared, not easy to discern in video) - note this symptom may also appear just prior to death as fish is struggling for oxygen, but this fish has notably red gill tissue. Fins are not clamped - which they generally are with (skin) parasites such ich and velvet

That suggests that it is a CO2 issue for me.

cheers Darrel

 

[alto]

That suggests that it is a CO2 issue for me.

Except his CO2 addition is very low - I suspect not even half of what I’m adding to my 60P

Recently I managed to turn my CO2 up when I meant to adjust it down, came back to fish “hanging” at the surface ... but no extended gills, no deep red color - just nice slow even (sedated 😱) deep breathing
Quick CO2 reduction through increased surface movement and water change, and all fish back to seemingly normal within the hour
No losses in following weeks
Definitely none of the behaviour shown in OP’s video

 

[Something Fishy]

Hi all,I'm not sure that is going to help, it will raise dKH, but I don't think that is @Something Fishy's problem and it will add sodium (Na+) ions, that are going to adversely effect plant growth.

We also know that nitrification is much less dKH dependent than was thought because most of the nitrification in aquariums is done by Archaea, and they are much less pH and carbonate restricted then the bacteria that were thought to oxidise ammonia.

If the OP does want to add some dKH they could use potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) or just add a bit of <"oyster shell chick grit" or cuttlebone">.

The final reason would be that the fish that have been lost are fish that live in water with very low TDS values, which naturally vary in pH. You aren't getting big changes in water chemistry, you are getting changes in pH, precisely because there aren't many solutes in the water. That suggests that it is a CO2 issue for me.

cheers Darrel

Cheers Darrel

Co2 I turned off for a few days and still saw the fish showing those symptoms and the fact they seem to be almost going in succession. That’s the bit that’s puzzling me so much unless it’s just the weaker ones that go. The fact it is almost one a day is just bizarre.

Would you not agree with that assumption from @sciencefiction about the disease type? I will try and do one thing at a time but I’m struggling to accept given the pattern that something as unsettling as KH would throw them off like this, in particular when I didn’t perform any water changes since putting the neons in.

Pretty confused about it but I guess after a few days of running the carbon I can start again.

No reason I should change fertilizer then either really? Like I said I don’t want to knock Lush Max unduely, so I’d only do that if it was an anomaly.


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[Something Fishy]

All fish are kinda hovering again today in the water column. Not sure what’s going on, as suddenly they seem a bit off again.

I am now missing a Rummy Nose too after them all looking coloured up and fine yesterday, now I can only count 3 🙁

Gh and KH test kit on it’s way.


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[Something Fishy]

The fact the Rummy Nose looked fine and is now dead too makes me more confused.

Params are fine, no CO2 now since Thursday, and no ferts since Friday. So I can pretty much rule those two factors straight out, as the Rummy Nose were all swimming and eating fine as of yesterday.

Now they are lingering and hovering around in the tank which suggests some form of stress. I am just trying to work out what that stress is.

If it’s Kh or Gh and not a disease as potentially suspected, is there a quick way to fix that and then observe if that’s done anything? I.e what to look out for and what would change?


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[sciencefiction]

We also know that nitrification is much less dKH dependent than was thought because most of the nitrification in aquariums is done by Archaea, and they are much less pH and carbonate restricted then the bacteria that were thought to oxidise ammonia.

Appreciate your thoughts Darrel. However, it is very easy to test what I saying at home by cycling fishlessly with ammonia. Due to the addition of higher amounts of ammonia the KH goes down quite rapidly, even in the space of just 2-3 weeks if water changes are not done to replenish the buffering.Of course, I have no way of knowing what nitrifying organisms are predominant in my tanks, bacteria or archaea.

I have reproduced the same on several different occasions: fishless cycling, not changing tank water for a long period, by overfeeding consistently for a period. I have hard water so it takes longer for my KH to go down than if one has soft water.

 

[X3NiTH]

I've been having a really good think about this so here's my tuppence.

An effect that could be happening in the tank that has already been semi alluded is you are running Marine coral sand next to AS, this isn't necessarily a bad thing but the TDS mismatch on water change day may be acting against you. The way I'm seeing it is that the sand will only buffer the water if the pH goes below neutral but the AS will buffer it all the time until it reaches an equilibrium state with the water TDS, you add fertilisers changing this relation so the AS will absorb some and form a new equilibrium. The problem comes at water change when you add significantly lower TDS water to the tank, the AS will want to keep equilibrium so it starts releasing whatever it has stored and will do so over time, the other problem is that the Tap water for water change will also be buffered artificially to above neutral (beyond what it will naturally be for the KH level) to keep it dissolving the copper in the distribution pipes, so when added to the tank it won't cause the coral sand to start buffering.

Trace metal concentration will slowly rise in the water if the majority of cations stored by the AS come from the added ferts.

If your water was harder at water change then this would be less of a problem. You are going to need that KH test kit to find out.

If it were me I would be taking a trip to Pets at Home to pick up one of their 12L Aquatown tanks for £15 (it comes with a nano pump and some substrate, bin the substrate use the pump with some filter substrate from another tank so it's pre cycled) and use it as a quarantine tank, put the rummys and neons in it and observe, I'd also add a pinch of Sodium Bicarbonate (no plants in the quarantine tank so sodium isn't an issue) to increase the buffering capacity of the water slightly to discount low KH affecting the fish. If it's a pathogen (they may harbour themselves as natural flora and a stress response makes it grow beyond the fish immune capacity to cope) they may keep popping of one by one, you can then treat the water column with the appropriate meds which should be more effective in a bare tank.

Whatever it is in the tank that's affecting these fish it appears that it is acting like a neurotoxin (from experience rummys I had showed these symptoms if water change water TDS is significantly lower than the tank TDS, mine lawn darted themselves headfirst into clumps of hair grass and jammed themselves in, I had to rescue them, but it was obvious at the time what the cause for the behaviour was). When it comes to neurotoxins certain types of dinoflagellates (as mentioned before as a possible vector) will do this especially Marine types (hyper destructive in a marine tank and a complete nightmare to eradicate, they kill all and can survive high doses of H₂O₂ that kills everything else in the tank, it's the last survivor). Is the coral sand you are using fresh or has it been repurposed from a marine setup (just thought I'd better ask).

As to why only neons and rummys are having trouble, one is very weak genetically and the other is a skittish canary.

Hopefully you get to the bottom of this before you lose the lot.

🙂

 

[Something Fishy]

I've been having a really good think about this so here's my tuppence.

An effect that could be happening in the tank that has already been semi alluded is you are running Marine coral sand next to AS, this isn't necessarily a bad thing but the TDS mismatch on water change day may be acting against you. The way I'm seeing it is that the sand will only buffer the water if the pH goes below neutral but the AS will buffer it all the time until it reaches an equilibrium state with the water TDS, you add fertilisers changing this relation so the AS will absorb some and form a new equilibrium. The problem comes at water change when you add significantly lower TDS water to the tank, the AS will want to keep equilibrium so it starts releasing whatever it has stored and will do so over time, the other problem is that the Tap water for water change will also be buffered artificially to above neutral (beyond what it will naturally be for the KH level) to keep it dissolving the copper in the distribution pipes, so when added to the tank it won't cause the coral sand to start buffering.

Trace metal concentration will slowly rise in the water if the majority of cations stored by the AS come from the added ferts.

If your water was harder at water change then this would be less of a problem. You are going to need that KH test kit to find out.

If it were me I would be taking a trip to Pets at Home to pick up one of their 12L Aquatown tanks for £15 (it comes with a nano pump and some substrate, bin the substrate use the pump with some filter substrate from another tank so it's pre cycled) and use it as a quarantine tank, put the rummys and neons in it and observe, I'd also add a pinch of Sodium Bicarbonate (no plants in the quarantine tank so sodium isn't an issue) to increase the buffering capacity of the water slightly to discount low KH affecting the fish. If it's a pathogen (they may harbour themselves as natural flora and a stress response makes it grow beyond the fish immune capacity to cope) they may keep popping of one by one, you can then treat the water column with the appropriate meds which should be more effective in a bare tank.

Whatever it is in the tank that's affecting these fish it appears that it is acting like a neurotoxin (from experience rummys I had showed these symptoms if water change water TDS is significantly lower than the tank TDS, mine lawn darted themselves headfirst into clumps of hair grass and jammed themselves in, I had to rescue them, but it was obvious at the time what the cause for the behaviour was). When it comes to neurotoxins certain types of dinoflagellates (as mentioned before as a possible vector) will do this especially Marine types (hyper destructive in a marine tank and a complete nightmare to eradicate, they kill all and can survive high doses of H₂O₂ that kills everything else in the tank, it's the last survivor). Is the coral sand you are using fresh or has it been repurposed from a marine setup (just thought I'd better ask).

As to why only neons and rummys are having trouble, one is very weak genetically and the other is a skittish canary.

Hopefully you get to the bottom of this before you lose the lot.

🙂

Haha it does make sense that they are like that to be honest. I just think back to how many unknowledgeable folk keep them with no issues, but I guess planted tanks do have waaaay more complications added don’t they.

I have a few tubs for water changes I could use one of those? Water volume is much higher than 15l though? I have two heaters and a big pump I could use.

Sadly I cracked my other spare tank so it’s now been used for the sump baffles ha.

Yeah just so odd that the fish arn’t looking stressed either, I’ve observed them stressed and they did colour and are anti social. In general they are not like this - coloured up and active u til they are gone, with the exception of the ones I filmed and saw before they died. Even making me doubt the plants and substrate and considering just replanting the lot!

Coral sand was brand new yeah. I wash it in very weak diluted thin bleach every now and again to get rid of algae spores, then rinse and let it air dry and rinse a few times and overdose dechlorinator and let it air dry again. Bit of a faff but I have time so let it dry properly. Just saying that as an FYI as I know that’s not an issue here, but useful what you said about it possibly buffering.

Are you thinking to fill the quarantine tank with current tank water?

Thanks




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[Something Fishy]

This is the tank behaviour today. Definitely a neon looking discoloured and separating from the group

https://streamable.com/08w9v


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[Something Fishy]

Except his CO2 addition is very low - I suspect not even half of what I’m adding to my 60P

Recently I managed to turn my CO2 up when I meant to adjust it down, came back to fish “hanging” at the surface ... but no extended gills, no deep red color - just nice slow even (sedated 😱) deep breathing
Quick CO2 reduction through increased surface movement and water change, and all fish back to seemingly normal within the hour
No losses in following weeks
Definitely none of the behaviour shown in OP’s video

I’ve had problems with CO2 overdose too when a lid I used on another tank slid down and covered half the tank. I came back to the same and did the same, also avoiding loses from that scenario.

It really doesn’t seem CO2 related as the fish today are behaving just as before and I’ve stopped it for days now.


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[Something Fishy]

Ok so I found the Rummy Nose, he jumped out the tank...


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[sciencefiction]

It sounds more and more like something to do with your water. Perhaps the mix of all things X3NiTH was on about.

I'd probably follow his advice and take those fish out of that tank. Put in a plastic bin with cycled filter. I'd probably use fresh water considering that the fish are reacting to the water they are in. Or at least take a few fish for a test run, if not all.

It would be interesting to see the KH test results once you get them.

 

[sciencefiction]

I'd probably use fresh water considering that the fish are reacting to the water they are in

And I'd add a bit of soda bicarbonate to raise the KH in the test tank.

 

[Something Fishy]

And I'd add a bit of soda bicarbonate to raise the KH in the test tank.

Will try this tomorrow mate thanks. Tried to scoring something up but couldn’t find anything just yet. I’ve had fish jump out of my other tank too but usually from flow as it was small.

I did up the flow on my return and that may have made the Rummy swim up and fly out the top, the tank is also quite full. Hard as flow is important but I wonder if high flow makes the tetras less active and more stressed. They have places to hide with less flow but the seem to like just being still around the middle.


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[dw1305]

Hi all,

And I'd add a bit of soda bicarbonate to raise the KH in the test tank.

The tank has coral sand in it, so I don't think it can be lack of carbonate hardness. It certainly isn't going to do any harm adding dKH, although I would prefer potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3).

Co2 I turned off for a few days and still saw the fish showing those symptoms and the fact they seem to be almost going in succession.

Not CO2 then, the fish look a bit pale, and appear to be shimmying, which isn't a disease, as such, but a sign of stress.

I've never seen it, but <"Neon Tetra Disease"> might be a possibility? as the other fish look healthy.

However, it is very easy to test what I saying at home by cycling fishlessly with ammonia. Due to the addition of higher amounts of ammonia the KH goes down quite rapidly

Nitrification definitely reduces carbonate hardness, and if you add a large ammonia loading it will reduce pH. It used to be really common when water changes weren't used, filtration was inadequate and our yellow tinged water developed "old tank syndrome", but you shouldn't ever get this when the tank is running with water changes.

It sounds more and more like something to do with your water.

Do you have an alternative water source? Rain-water might be an option.

cheers Darrel

 

[Something Fishy]

Hi all, The tank has coral sand in it, so I don't think it can be lack of carbonate hardness. It certainly isn't going to do any harm adding dKH, although I would prefer potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3). Not CO2 then, the fish look a bit pale, and appear to be shimmying, which isn't a disease, as such, but a sign of stress.

I've never seen it, but <"Neon Tetra Disease"> might be a possibility? as the other fish look healthy.Nitrification definitely reduces carbonate hardness, and if you add a large ammonia loading it will reduce pH. It used to be really common when water changes weren't used, filtration was inadequate and our yellow tinged water developed "old tank syndrome", but you shouldn't ever get this when the tank is running with water changes. Do you have an alternative water source? Rain-water might be an option.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel.

Yeah I do have rainwater outside? I could just buffer the water too if that was what the issue seemed to be. I understood that Neons like soft water anyway? Which is bizarre to me.

Yeah I saw neon tetra disease too and thought of that. Does that affect a Rummy Nose though? Haha. If not maybe it’s a tetra only one that’s linked.

Yes other fish are active and eating and growing to be honest. Amanos (when they stay in the bloody tank - they like to dive into my sump sock and climb out to their impending doom) are also seemingly healthy when in the tank.

Neons last week just like the Rummys were super coloured up and healthy looking and eating just fine. They are still eating today just fine, but the one in yesterday’s video that went pale off on his own I cannot find. Again he seemed like it was his turn...

I’ve since got some GH and KH readings anyway!

Tap water
KH - 2 drops - 35.8ppm
GH - 2 drops - 35.8ppm

Nano tank - 22l - running an Aquaone external
KH - 2 drops - 35.8ppm
GH - 6 drops - 107.4ppm

TMC 600 80l with 30l of water in sump
KH - 1 drop - 17.9ppm
GH - 6 drops also - 107.4ppm




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[sciencefiction]

TMC 600 80l with 30l of water in sump
KH - 1 drop - 17.9ppm
GH - 6 drops also - 107.4ppm

What was the water change schedule like leading to this test after the death events started?
I still suspect that your tank's KH went down to zero at some stage.

 

[Something Fishy]

What was the water change schedule like leading to this test after the death events started?
I still suspect that your tank's KH went down to zero at some stage.

I did the change on Saturday I mentioned mate.

Other than that I’ve been doing 1 a week roughly 90%.

The tank is making the water softer for some reason too, yet my nano is the same. Maybe the sump with all the nitrification?


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[Something Fishy]

I tried not to go crazy and keep changing the water too often. I also added that activate carbon the other day so maybe that also lowered the KH?


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