Still losing fish, is it co2?

[sciencefiction]

I’ll look into whet you suggested. I saw that one only as I noticed the gill problem and thought it might be an infection linked to those.

This med is for ectoparasites. External parasites don't cause vertical swimming or buoyancy issues. The common symptoms are flashing, scraping, etc..and most ectoparasites are visible to the naked eye, e.g. flukes and whitespot. I do not think Seachem Paraguard would have any effect in your case to be honest.

 

[Something Fishy]

This med is for ectoparasites. External parasites don't cause vertical swimming or buoyancy issues. The common symptoms are flashing, scraping, etc..and most ectoparasites are visible to the naked eye, e.g. flukes and whitespot. I do not think Seachem Paraguard would have any effect in your case to be honest.

Thanks mate ok.

TDS for tap water is 35-40
EC is 86-87 um/cm

Tank is 115
EC - 225 um/cm



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[alto]

In the last year or so, I have seen shipments of Rummy’s, Cardinals, Neons arrive with what I suspect is some strain(s) of Columnaris (this is a tricky pathogen as the same strain in the same batch of fish, which are then separated to different environments, may display significantly different disease progressions)

I highly doubt this has anything to do with columnaris.

An interesting read 🙂

Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions

• Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author,
• Freddy Haesebrouck,
• Wim Van den Broeck,
• Peter Bossier and
• Annemie Decostere

Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27

This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access

 

[Something Fishy]

Tests for usual params. Kh is the only one I’m missing

Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 5ppm




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[sciencefiction]

An interesting read 🙂

Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions

• Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author,
• Freddy Haesebrouck,
• Wim Van den Broeck,
• Peter Bossier and
• Annemie Decostere

Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27

This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access

What leads you to believe its columnaris? Can you elaborate on your logic?

I've personally read about the disease a lot, starting several years ago. So my opinion is based on knowledge and also personal experience.

 

[sciencefiction]

Thanks mate ok.

TDS for tap water is 35-40
EC is 86-87 um/cm

Tank is 115
EC - 225 um/cm



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Looking at that, you've got really soft water and I suspect zero KH is your issue mate, not a disease. Get a KH test.

 

[Something Fishy]

An interesting read 🙂

Columnaris disease in fish: a review with emphasis on bacterium-host interactions

• Annelies Maria DeclercqEmail author,
• Freddy Haesebrouck,
• Wim Van den Broeck,
• Peter Bossier and
• Annemie Decostere

Veterinary Research. 2013 44:27

https://veterinaryresearch.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1297-9716-44-27

This review article is hosted on several sites, some of which include full access

That is a good read alto. I can relate to some of those factors too. Super weird though and I think finding the right medicine will be the trick as SF said earlier.


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[Something Fishy]

Looking at that, you've got really soft water and I suspect zero KH is your issue mate, not a disease. Get a KH test.

Will order one now mate.

How would that create the symptoms described though in only some fish? I’ve been running this other tank on this water for over 3 years and that’s had next to no problems :/




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[sciencefiction]

How would that create the symptoms described though in only some fish? I’ve been running this other tank on this water for over 3 years and that’s had next to no problems :/

The difference in bioload. KH is used up in nitrification and in your better stocked tank it dips between water changes. That's my guess. The affected tank gets too acidic. Test both tanks when you get a KH test and you'll know the difference.

 

[sciencefiction]

You can also add a bit of soda bicarbonate to the affected tank as a test run to stabilize the KH and see how that goes.

 

[Something Fishy]

The difference in bioload. KH is used up in nitrification and in your better stocked tank it dips between water changes. That's my guess. The affected tank gets too acidic. Test both tanks when you get a KH test and you'll know the difference.

Interesting. And co2 and a sump I guess could both further add to that? Lots of bio media in there.


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[Something Fishy]

You can also add a bit of soda bicarbonate to the affected tank as a test run to stabilize the KH and see how that goes.

Ok interesting.

Just done a water change and added active carbon in for a few days so will wait to avoid too many changes at once.

Still confused though as the tanks been running for months on this water and the deaths are a fairly recent occurrence.

Wouldn’t a Ph test show if it’s too acidic too?


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[sciencefiction]

Yes, the pH will go down too when the KH is zero.

Still confused though as the tanks been running for months on this water and the deaths are a fairly recent occurrence.

It is not something that would occur daily but it may have been happening on and off without your knowledge and existing tank inhabitants could adapt to an extent although it would weaken their immune system long term. New fish added to very acidic water may never adapt.

What is the full list of inhabitants, how old are they now or how long have you had them for?
A few months is a very short term in terms of fish health. The only way you'd know if your water is ok if those fish you got a few months back are still alive a few years later. Fish are tough for the most part but chronic bad conditions will take its toll.

 

[sciencefiction]

Thanks mate ok.

TDS for tap water is 35-40
EC is 86-87 um/cm

Tank is 115
EC - 225 um/cm



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also, another thing to note is that if you just tested your tank, it is after the series of water changes so I suspect your TDS had gone way higher prior to all this happening, and prior to the many the water changes. Soft water, possibly very poor on buffering capacity, gone acidic due to heavier nitrification(heavier bioload) with TDS much higher than your tap water. This was my initial guess several pages ago as the crashing pH follows this same path and symptoms are consistent with what I have observed myself as well.

What is the TDS in your betta tank I wonder?

Also, a rhetoric question, so no need to answer but seeing that you've been registered for a while, what is your oldest fish in general? Have you had to replace fish inhabitants often, etc...That'll answer your water quality question. It is probably not something you've done, it's just the way it goes with water poor on buffering capacity which is not enriched artificially to make it stable.

 

[Something Fishy]

Yes, the pH will go down too when the KH is zero.



It is not something that would occur daily but it may have been happening on and off without your knowledge and existing tank inhabitants could adapt to an extent although it would weaken their immune system long term. New fish added to very acidic water may never adapt.

What is the full list of inhabitants, how old are they now or how long have you had them for?
A few months is a very short term in terms of fish health. The only way you'd know if your water is ok if those fish you got a few months back are still alive a few years later. Fish are tough for the most part but chronic bad conditions will take its toll.

Yeah the only thing I’ve noticed is that bar like one Otto a while back ( which I put down to Pets at Home) all the other loses have been Tetras.

I had 14 Rummy Nose and over the past three months gradually I’m down to 4 now. I had 26 neon Tetras as of last week and this week I’ve lost about 14 of those in tern.

The rest of the habitants are 6 Amano Shrimp, 5 Ottos, 2 Cory Habrosus (grown quit big now) and a small Sting Ray Pleco. Fish are super coloured up and active as they always have been, but tetras from time to time just kinda linger or stay around in one place which I always have found odd. Early on when I got the tank for weeks they would swim back and fourth in big schools.

I don’t feel the Bioload is extreme and I feed little bits at a time. I water change once a week though about 90%.

I wonder if the ferts are affecting the parameters or Kh which could apply some link to that. Could be nothing.

I feel like my plants will start kicking off soon as the water is now so clear from the carbon that it looks invisible lol! I’ll keep it like it for a few days and gradually add ferts again (from the other bottles just Incase.)

Not sure on the co2 if you think acid is a problem as it might be a stressor. The way a Tetra has kinda gone off in sequence makes it almost routine like they are all catching something one by one.


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[sciencefiction]

The CO2 has no effect on KH, neither do plant fertilisers.

The random deaths and skittish behaviour is consistent with what I'd expect from a very soft water tank. Basically, your water is way too soft to stay stable between water changes. Look into how to get some KH reading/buffering into it. I think there's a thread here somewhere on that specific topic as well. I'll try to find it.

 

[Something Fishy]

Also, another thing to note is that if you just tested your tank, it is after the series of water changes so I suspect your TDS had gone way higher prior to all this happening, and prior to the many the water changes. Soft water, possibly very poor on buffering capacity, gone acidic due to heavier nitrification(heavier bioload) with TDS much higher than your tap water. This was my initial guess several pages ago as the crashing pH follows this same path and symptoms are consistent with what I have observed myself as well.

What is the TDS in your betta tank I wonder?

Also, a rhetoric question, so no need to answer but seeing that you've been registered for a while, what is your oldest fish in general? Have you had to replace fish inhabitants often, etc...That'll answer your water quality question. It is probably not something you've done, it's just the way it goes with water poor on buffering capacity which is not enriched artificially to make it stable.

It should be fairly consistent mate as I’ve been doing the same water change routine for ages.

TDS is Betta tank was 140 or so. But that was changed today also. Longest fish is probably the Harlequin Raspbora in the nano which is over 18months now. I did lose the other two of his mates though. Similarly with the danios, one survived but the other two died. Now you say it I have had a fair few loses in there too.

Pretty crazy that people keep Neon Tetras in some pretty awful tanks with barely any awareness even if nitrates, and I’ve had this trouble with such an established grown in planted tank. Sometimes with mysteries like this I swear it was easier to keep Marines haha I certainly hardly ever lost any fish, but I guess to be fair we add more to marine RO water making it pretty constant for all.

I have about 100 cherry shrimp in the nano tank after they bred so much lol.


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[Something Fishy]

The CO2 has no effect on KH, neither do plant fertilisers.

The random deaths and skittish behaviour is consistent with what I'd expect from a very soft water tank. Basically, your water is way too soft to stay stable between water changes. Look into how to get some KH reading/buffering into it. I think there's a thread here somewhere on that specific topic as well. I'll try to find it.

Sounds good thanks mate you’ve been a great help.

I’ll get some readings up ASAP once the test kits arrive.

I suppose doing such large water changes would make sense of what you say. 40% more often probably makes sense, I just followed George Farmer’s methods. But he also tends to have small amounts of fish, different location, etc.

I still think what you’re saying makes perfect sense, but the way they die so soon and the fact 3/4 went in one day, and the gill thing, I’m still thinking that there might be another problem.

The Kh / GH however is still a hugely valid point regardless, I need to check that.


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[sciencefiction]

I suppose doing such large water changes would make sense of what you say. 40% more often probably makes sense

Yes, try doing 40% water changes more often rather than 90% ones. This may help in the current situation but you need to also monitor your TDS and not let it accumulate too much either, meaning increase frequency of water changes. Smaller water changes have smaller effect on accumulation removal. For example two 50% water changes are not as good as one 90% when it comes to dilution of things.

You can add buffering via soda bicarbonate to the tank. It will help some but needs monitoring to see how often and how much you need to add. I'd aim at a KH of 2-3 between water changes. This will prevent swings and fish stress and if the water is buffered, you can increase the water change percentage done at a time.

 

[Something Fishy]

Yes, try doing 40% water changes more often rather than 90% ones. This may help in the current situation but you need to also monitor your TDS and not let it accumulate too much either, meaning increase frequency of water changes. Smaller water changes have smaller effect on accumulation removal. For example two 50% water changes are not as good as one 90% when it comes to dilution of things.

You can add buffering via soda bicarbonate to the tank. It will help some but needs monitoring to see how often and how much you need to add. I'd aim at a KH of 2-3 between water changes. This will prevent swings and fish stress and if the water is buffered, you can increase the water change percentage done at a time.

Once a week too long you think? Should do even more frequently? Less is bound to help as you say but I could buffer. Amazonia not help with that I guess really.

Will keep and eye on KH with test kit. What should TDS be ideally after half a week / a week?

Odd thing still is that the neons didn’t experience a water change as when I got them last week they were settling for this week. The tank had already been water changed the day before so I left it. It wasn’t like a sudden change shocked them as they didn’t have any.

Odd too that the other fish species aren’t really phased. Shrimp would be pretty sensitive too right?




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