# Consistency Deficiency



## Hufsa

I'm not quite sure how to start this journal, so I'm just gonna start with this 
I have had aquariums for ten+ years, keeping various types of fish and mostly sticking to low light plants, with a special fondness for rhizome plants, who always grew alright no matter what I did to them. 
I found an old picture of my main tank back then, which seemed to do quite well, despite very little expertise in the way of plants, and being fertilized only when it struck my fancy and not with any sort of regularity.



 

I recently came out of a five year break from fishkeeping. Earlier this year I needed something to occupy my time and distract myself with, and so I pulled the old 180 liter out of storage along with what seemed like an unreasonable amount of fish-keeping accessories.

I set it up much like I used to do, with lots of driftwood and rhizome plants, and expected it to work out much like it had done in the old days. It didnt. The plants grew poorly and I had noticeable amounts of algae. Before my hiatus I barely had algae, so I figured maybe the lights needed replacing. As far as I could remember, the two T8 bulbs had about three years of use behind them, so this seemed like a good place to start. 

While I was waiting for the new bulbs, an old familiar feeling started up. Some months had passed since I set up the tank, and my fingers were starting to itch. The kind of restless itching that makes you want to do over everything in the tank, to get a new fresh layout, and nothing can stop this itch once it takes hold. What you once thought of as a magnificent layout is suddenly unbearable to look at, and it is time for a big change.

This time, I decided, I wanted to try some stem plants. I researched some easy-ish varieties from Tropica, much of the driftwood was put away to make room for plants, and I brought home; Hygrophila difformis, Rotala rotundifolia, Ludwigia sp (palustris?) "Super Red", Staurogyne repens, Blyxa japonica, Nymphaea lotus, Vallisneria var "Biwaensis" and Pogostemon helferi.
From before I had; Microsorum "Windelov", Microsorum "Narrow", Bolbitis heudelotii, Anubias "petite", Weeping Moss and Salvinia oblongifolia.

I excitedly planted them all, and the only thing that happened was that the Ludwigia Super Red melted. And I mean melted, disintegrated. Nothing was growing. Not even the H. difformis! What on earth was this? I had kept H. difformis before and I knew that it would grow basically in a toilet bowl. 

Something was very wrong in the aquarium. I started reading up more on plant care. The Super Red is such a beautiful plant, I am determined to make it grow for me eventually. My search for information lead me to plant forums, and I remembered fondly how much time I had spent on the aquarium forums before facebook was much of a thing. There is such a wealth of knowledge in the forums, and its nice to have somewhere to write down your thoughts and theories and get feedback on them. 

So that leads me to this journal. I think I have a basic understanding of nutrients, light, algae etc now. A more in-depth understanding will hopefully follow, but you gotta start somewhere. I have been using Seachem Flourish, and assumed that it would cover the needs of the plants, since thats pretty much what it says on the bottle. Reading about NPK though, I looked more closely at the bottle and realised that it doesnt add much in the way of macros.

Therefore my working theory is that my water is lacking in nutrients, hence the journal title. Especially macro nutrients, since I had very few and small fish. At one point only 5 small fish in 180 liters of water, and frequent large water changes on top of that. Maybe I am totally wrong though, it is entirely possible and I look forward to finding out 

I have ordered online an assortment of powdered fertilizers and I am in the process of getting more fish to help make nitrates. Last weekend saw the addition of 30 ember tetras, who have already shown to be very good at begging, eating, and pooping. I suspect the Seachem Matrix biomedia is stealing some of the scarce amount of nitrates that I have. After a week with no water changes the water sits at about 1 ppm Nitrate on a JBL test. I did read that hobby tests are unreliable though, so I dont know if this is useful information.

I will undoubtedly have tons of questions once the powders arrive 
I cant wait to start mixing "potions" and experimenting.
The second batch of Ludwigia Super Red will be my teacher, since it seems to be the "wimpiest" species of the bunch  Here is a picture of it, this is all from one pot from the LFS (amazing). About 1-2 cm of growth is "mine". Small, dark, a bit curly and weird looking.


 

If you read all of this then I apologise for the incoherent rambling and any grammar/spelling mistakes I may have made, and thank you for reading


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## Edvet

https://www.ukaps.org/index.php?page=dosing-with-dry-salts

Ferts don't cause algae!
Use ferts liberaly ( hence EI method) and do waterchanges.

What's your lighting and how long?


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## Hufsa

My lighting is two "Philips TL-D 30W 865 Super 80 (MASTER)", at 8 hours a day currently. As far as I understand this is in the low range to possibly way bottom of the medium range. The reflector is gone from the ancient lighting top, I am planning to get it replaced soon, so the light output is probably less. I am not running CO2 and I dont really want to, hopefully I can still keep these plants. I dont need the most amazing colors or the fastest growth, I just want healthy plants my fish can lay eggs in, if that makes sense  
Powders ordered are based on EI recommendations, as a temporary measure I got a bottle of Tropica Specialized Nutrition but it seems to be mostly water and not very economic in use.


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## Hufsa

Way too much time has passed since the last update.

The powdered ferts arrived not too long after the last post, very happy with my purchase from Aqua Plants Care.

I started dosing some strange improvised versions of EI low light dosing and general fiddling about. Tried dosing once a week or twice a week, with various amounts. I made a lot of changes and didnt take enough time to observe how each change affected anything. Despite this, the plants looked to be growing a little bit better.

Then I had a death in my very close family and the aquarium was put on the back burner for a while. The plants went without much fertilizer for a month or two.. The fishes got some food every now and then but that was about it.

Now things have gone a bit more back to normal, and this time Im gonna dose "by the book".
Every other day with homemade macros and Flourish micros, at full EI amounts. 50% water change every sunday with no ferts added that day, only a kH booster and some GH powder. Ive done this for about a week now and the changes look very promising.

I think I need more iron though, new leaves have a tendency to look distinctly whiteish and Im not convinced the Flourish is adding enough. I have ordered some Fe DTPA which seemed like a good choice for my pH which usually sits around 7,2. I threw in some CSM+B in the order as well. As far as I understand CSM+B is an "old recipe" and there are several slightly different varieties of it depending on who you get it from. I hope this one is fairly well balanced. The plan is for it to replace Flourish once I run out.

I am (possibly irrationally) a bit nervous about adding "so much" Flourish, ~11 ml every other day. Earlier this fall when I dosed more Flourish than I had done previously, I had two shrimp die within a few weeks of each other, and neither individual was very old. This might have been a coincidence though.

I am super happy to report that my diatom problem has completely gone, I read over and over that this is a symptom of instability in the system and that it should disappear on its own, but I felt like it was taking its sweet time clearing out of my system. But it was probably to be expected given the bumpy start I had with getting the filter cycled and the snail/planaria treatments it underwent that really seemed to kick off a brown-goop bloom.

I now have a wide assortment of green-themed algae, most prominently thread algae, but also a good amount of green spot algae, and some shorter thread like algae on some old leaves, the latter notably in the lower flow parts of the tank.

Im keeping my cool though, as far as I see it, green algae is closer to plants than diatoms and brown goop, so if I can grow green algae now then I am one step closer to growing plants well!  Positive thinking is important. Im manually removing the thread algae because it bothers the fish to get tangled in it, but otherwise I am just focusing on the plants to see what I can do for them.

I dont know if my light is sufficient, Ive been having serious thoughts about upgrading to a Fluval 3.0, but my budget is limited right now and it might not be a real need.
The Ludwigia Super Red is growing slanted sideways, does this mean that it is happy with the amount of light it is getting?

The Rotala rotundifolia is growing much faster than the Ludwigia and I am unable to tell if its happier because its closer to the light, or if its just happier because of the ferts.
As an experiment, I left a few stems to grow long towards the light while taking the tops off the rest and replanting. Will be interesting to see if any differences appear.
This is a low tech tank and I dont want to use extra CO2, so a low light level might be all that is needed when CO2 is limited?


-NOTE- This was written a couple of weeks ago. I was just gonna snap some pictures of the plants the next morning, and then of course I forgot to post it at all. I have some new theories that differ from these. New post is incoming


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## Hufsa

The DTPA Fe arrived shortly after the last post and new growth on the plants look much better.

I have moved away from thinking I need more light, I think the light is sufficient and that my problems are more likely to be related to insufficient surface agitation and distribution, and I also suspect that maybe the plants are nitrate limited somehow even with full EI dosing. The bulk of my filter media is Seachem Matrix, and I am wondering if the advertised anaerobic core of the Matrix is removing the nitrate faster than my plants can get to it.

I know that test kits are scoffed at at this forum, but I have tested the nitrates just to try to see if I can notice any sort of trend with the nitrates. If all the results of the test kit is off by, lets say 10 ppm, then at least it might give a pointer to the trends of the nitrates if not the exact values?

The plants are still struggling from something, and that what I mainly go by. The rotala rotundifolia is super useful in this way, because the growth of the stems are like a continually printed record of what goes on in my tank. And it stunts very easily for me. I also had some fantastically good looking growth for a short time, but then I replanted the tops and it stunted again. Very interesting. One day maybe I will see the entire puzzle clearly, haha. For now I am picking up one piece at a time and learning as I go.

Anyway, nitrates consistently test 0 from the tap and between 2,5 - 5 in my tank. Yesterday I tested before and a couple of hours after adding ~20 ppm NO3. Test went up maybe 1 point, if that. Something funky is going on. Either I have a faulty test, or the test is useless (forum favorite), or the plants ate 20 ppm NO3 in 3 hours (seems unlikely), or the Matrix ate 20 ppm NO3 in 3 hours, or there is something wrong with my KNO3 mixture and it is much weaker than its supposed to. I have had some crystals escape from solution and start creeping out of the pump bottle. Or maybe some entirely other factor is going on that I am unaware of. Its hard to know what you dont know.

With my new EI fertilizer and water change routine my shrimp deaths have picked up pace. I dont like it at all. Always adult shrimp but not the oldest ones, and they die one by one. These shrimp are second or third generation born in my tank, and I know they arent old enough to be dying of old age. It doesnt seem to be molting issues, and they are still breeding like crazy. I currently think something happening during the water change disagrees with them. I dont think this has directly to do with fertilizers any more.

I have ordered and am still waiting for a TDS meter to see if there are big changes to this sum value when I do a 50% change. The GH may fluctuate a little bit with water changes but not really that much, its around 3 in the tap and around 5-8 in my tank after I have added the GH powder for the plants.

I use a python to do both emptying and refilling of the tank.
I have been bothered by the gas of my tap water when it goes into my tank, there seems to be a lot of dissolved gases coming out of the changed water even after I run it slowly through a spray pistol/head. I havent seen any bubbles forming inside the fish (gas bubble disease), but bubbles do get stuck on the fishes' slime coats and sometimes on the outside of the shrimp as well. It -might- be harmless but it makes me very uneasy.

Right now I think changes in TDS are the most likely cause.
I have gone from changing 50% to changing just 25% this past sunday, and I dont think I have found any dead shrimp yet.
However this makes build-up of ferts more of an issue. Changing twice a week is hard for me to do right now practically with work, sometimes I struggle getting just the weekly one in on time.
Hopefully the TDS meter will help me figure out what is going on.

On to some more happy news, I have splurged a bit and ordered myself (read: fish and shrimp) a late christmas present, a big upgrade to my ancient Eheim filter with Aquael's Ultramax 2000. The specs and the price of the filter is much better than one of a similar new Eheim type, and Im hoping the quality isnt too bad. I am super excited and waiting impatiently for it to arrive. As always when ordering online, I would rather it arrive yesterday 
Im gonna have a long spray bar running all across the back of the tank for steady but good distribution. I will also go from a theoretical 750 LPH to a theoretical 2000 LPH, so its a big upgrade.


[Edited feb 2021 to change N to NO3]


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Hufsa said:


> The DTPA Fe arrived shortly after the last post and new growth on the plants look much better.


Good. 





Hufsa said:


> I currently think something happening during the water change disagrees with them. I dont think this has directly to do with fertilizers any more.





Hufsa said:


> I use a python to do both emptying and refilling of the tank. I have been bothered by the gas of my tap water when it goes into my tank, there seems to be a lot of dissolved gases coming out of the changed water even after I run it slowly through a spray pistol/head. I havent seen any bubbles forming inside the fish (gas bubble disease), but bubbles do get stuck on the fishes' slime coats and sometimes on the outside of the shrimp as well. It -might- be harmless but it makes me very uneasy.


Not so good. It could be temperature related, how much cooler is the water change water?





Hufsa said:


> The bulk of my filter media is Seachem Matrix, and I am wondering if the advertised anaerobic core of the Matrix is removing the nitrate faster than my plants can get to it.


It is possible. 





Hufsa said:


> Anyway, nitrates consistently test 0 from the tap and between 2,5 - 5 in my tank. Yesterday I tested before and a couple of hours after adding ~20 ppm N. Test went up maybe 1 point, if that. Something funky is going on. Either I have a faulty test, or the test is useless (forum favorite), or the plants ate 20 ppm N in 3 hours (seems unlikely), or the Matrix ate 20 ppm N in 3 hours, or there is something wrong with my KNO3 mixture and it is much weaker than its supposed to. I have had some crystals escape from solution and start creeping out of the pump bottle. Or maybe some entirely other factor is going on that I am unaware of. Its hard to know what you dont know.


You know what I'm going to say ..............................Test kit..........

cheers Darrel


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## Hufsa

The tap water I use to refill the tank is maybe one or two degrees lower than the water in the tank. I dont refill with ice cold water.
Its a bit of a contested subject here, Camp A feels very strongly that the heated water from the boiler is full of toxic stuff and its better for the fish to get a cold shower, while Camp B feels that Camp A are being paranoid about boiler sludge, and that fish from the amazon dont like almost freezing water from north of the polar circle and that the possibility of some sludge is better than shocking your fish. I am in Camp C, which stands for Confused and trying to do some sort of middle ground.


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## Hufsa

A more timely update this time, the Aquael Ultramax 2000 arrived the day before christmas, and got set up immediately. Its a bit too tall for my aquarium stand, but I'm making do until I can build a taller one, a new stand has been on my to do list for a while anyway. It fits under there but the prefilter lid cannot be opened fully, and it needs to be tilted and pulled out (heavy) over a support bar before I can do any service on it. It spills out water on the floor when you open the prefilter, which I am not sure if is intended or not. Just a little bit of water, I think its the water that is in the pump itself and above the prefilter, but still a strange design. Maybe youre supposed to have the whole filter in a tub before you open it? That seems cumbersome.

All the old filter media from the Eheim was put over into the Ultramax, and I mixed the existing Seachem Matrix with the provided ceramic thingamabobs so that hopefully the bacteria can spread easily. I am considering replacing the Matrix with normal ceramic porous media, I am really unsure if its messing with my nitrates or not and honestly would rather have one less factor to worry about. This would have to be done over a bit of time to avoid a filter crash. Im thinking maybe removing 1/4 of the Matrix every 2 months, this should allow the bacteria to colonise the other media without getting any ammonia and nitrite issues I think. Another option would be to break the Matrix into smaller pieces with a hammer, this should make the anaerobic areas of the pebbles smaller because of the increased surface area and oxygenation. It might ruin the Matrix though 

I used the provided spraybar plus one from Aliexpress I had laying around, plugged the pump in and was immediately disappointed with the flow, or lack thereof  A couple of minutes of sulking later, I started to remember all the info I got from reading the spray bar threads on the forum. My spray bar setup probably had way too many holes!  They make the holes in the bar to fit only that length of bar, and then of course some bars will be better designed than others. When you add another length of bar, you will get maybe double the amount of holes that you are supposed to have. Which makes the pressure drop and the waterflow in the tank will not reach far enough. Grabbed some black electrical tape and went to work, plugged up maybe closer to 2/3 of the holes, as the Aliex bar I had used was quite liberal with both hole size and amount. Much better flow this time! The glue on the tape wont last long term under water but I will look into maybe shrink-tube covering the extra holes, or something else. I ordered a bit more Aliex spray bar, so it will look less janky when its all the same kind.

The old Eheim is still running in the tank as well, only empty. It has the external Hydor heater on it, and being 12/16, the heater will not fit on the new 16/22 pump. A new 16/22 heater is on the list, but its not doing any harm the way it is now either, so its not an emergency.

Plants continue to look better, the rotala has mostly un-stunted and is growing nicely. I suspect it will stunt again when I replant the tops, but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised. I've bumped the NO3 dose up to 10 ppm from 8 ppm. They get about 0.2 ppm of Fe through the DTPA as well. [Edit: 3 times a week.] There is still some thread algae and some struggling older leaves, but I am trying to avoid making too many changes at once so some time and observing is in order. Particularly with this new flow, which is a major change.

Shrimp deaths seem to have decreased, I have only found one shrimp so far. Im not adding any GH powder any more, and I am refilling the tank reeeeaaaal slowly, like 2-3 hours. Takes forever, thank goodness for timers so I can do other things in the meantime. Last water change was 50% again instead of 25%, which seems to have been fine. TDS change issues mitigated by slow refilling?

Speaking of TDS, the meter arrived today, and some quick initial measurements shows tap water around 63 ppm, tank water at around 171 ppm before macros and 184 ppm after. So there is a difference there. I dont know yet how big of a difference this is, some more reading is required. Water change sunday is coming up, and I am thinking of maybe changing 80-90% of the water to get it back to tap level, and then measuring daily to see how it evolves. Refilling of such a large water change would have to be done very slowly though, otherwise I imagine I'll have another shrimp death wave on my hands.


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## Hufsa

A closer look at the rotala rotundifolia. Sincere apologies for the image quality, my phone was not cooperating. I find it strange that some of the tips are doing great, while some of the others are still small and stunted looking. The good looking ones will stunt again as soon as they are replanted in my experience so far. They are not chlorotic any more as far as I can tell, the picture makes them look washed out because of the light.





Will a lack of CO2 cause stunting like this?
I just find it strange how I am adding full dose of EI to a low tech, low to moderate light tank and still get them doing this stunting.


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## Maxplantinstitute

Hufsa said:


> .
> 
> Speaking of TDS, the meter arrived today, and some quick initial measurements shows tap water around 63 ppm, tank water at around 171 ppm before macros and 184 ppm after. So there is a difference there. I dont know yet how big of a difference this is, some more reading is required. Water change sunday is coming up, and I am thinking of maybe changing 80-90% of the water to get it back to tap level, and then measuring daily to see how it evolves.


Hi, Hufsa.
I don't think you should freak out with the tsd numbers you are seeing.
A big water change without the usual gh Booster will cause a bigger tsd shock to your tank and might cause more Trubble. 
Your tap gh level is so low that the tank probably benefits from a little extra.
Do you provide any additional magnesium and phosphate for your tank?


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## JoshP12

I have enjoyed reading through this post; thanks for starting it.

My suggestion will be a pain and several people use a python and dose the water column after successfully; I like to age it in a bucket with a bubbler, doctor it, heat it, then add slowly.

TDS shock is real. Temperature stress is real.

That gas coming out of your tap is co2 and will stress the fish if the concentration is too high/too drastic/impacts fish due to ph fluctuations etc etc so all of these things (whichever it is) is going to cause stress.

Ageing your water in buckets with a bubbler will let your water equalize out - aside from the scientific view co2 coming to the 3ppm equilibrium with air, I like to let the water settle - it settles me.

I doctor it with GH/kh booster to what ever I want — the numbers you choose will depend entirely on your setup. Right now, it needs to match your tank (unless your intention is to slowly adjust you chemistry). If your water is good from the tap/rain bucket for what you want, then don’t doctor it.

The temperature camp imo is relative to wc percentage. If you are topping off with water that is 10 Fahrenheit lower it’s fine; if you are changing 90%... well it will induce some stress. Will that stress kill fish ... I do not have an answer.

At 50% changes, I think you should be close enough but just under your current temp: if it’s 77f go to 75f— our thermometers have error anyways, haha.

So I am in camp AB ... it depends. I will say that I tend not to put hotter water in - not sure why. Actually, I do know why; once my heater boiled over and the effect on my fish was unsettling; so much so, that when I fixed it my shrimp danced the entire aquarium. 

Since you do not intend to use co2, you need to find the nutrient balance with your light at your natural co2 levels - easier said than done - if you liberally dose ferts, which is fine, then your lighting/husbandry of the aquarium will dictate if you see algae. I know that flow will also play a factor, but I have never beat algae with fixing flow ... yet ... but I have with lighting and “correct” husbandry.

Just my thoughts!


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## Hufsa

Thank you both for your replies, I appreciate it a lot and I am happy that you find it somewhat tolerable to read through my ramblings 

I ended up not making a big change to the overall TDS at water change. I took some time to think about my GH and decided to start adding the powder again at water changes to hopefully avoid Ca and Mg deficiencies in my soft water. I still felt like changing a fair bit of water for some reason, so I did about a 75% water change. Probably to feel like I have a bit of control over whats in there and a cleaner slate to work from. To avoid shocking the shrimp, I added the GH powder in two doses, half of the powder slowly added when the tank was refilled to 50% full, and the rest between 75 - 100% filled. That should have kept the TDS relatively steady, instead of the levels going from "High"(relative) pre water change, Low post refill, and then to High again after adding GH powder to a full tank. Resulting TDS came out at (very roughly) 151, so that will allow for some rise from the ferts through the week before the cycle repeats.

I add Phosphate as a part of the Macro EI dosing, about 2 ppm 3x a week, but not any Magnesium so far when its not being added through the GH powder. Keep in mind I dont live in the UK, so an abundance of Ca in the water is much less of a given over here.

I feel like Ive been bouncing around way too much lately, from one theory to another. I would like not to, but its not so easy in practice. So many factors and variables, its easy to get dizzy as a newbie. 

To be quite honest with you, aging the water is difficult for several reasons. I live in a very small apartment and space is very scarce. In addition, we struggle with humidity and mold, and I dont want to contribute to this problem with water standing around. Lastly but also a big factor, I want things to be easy and convenient, for the periods of time when I am less interested in the tank. It comes and goes a little bit and I need to make sure the upkeep is easy enough to do, even when Im not feeling super motivated. Ideally I would like to get out of having to dose ferts each day eventually, but I need to have a better grip on things before I try that, I think.

I am probably stubborn for not wanting to use added CO2. I just really dont want to. The added risk to the livestock, the refilling of the bottles, and all the parts and gizmos, its so unappealing to me personally. 

It has to be possible to get a nice low tech tank, I have seen it done. Good surface agitation and flow distribution should max out my potential "low tech" CO2. With the new pump and the spray bars I feel like I have that part pretty sorted.
Will added CO2 make my problems easier to nail down? Probably.
Is it also beyond the scope of what I want with this tank? Yes.

As far as I understand it, one does not want CO2 to be the limiting factor for plant growth. Nor do you want nutrients to be? But its better than CO2 being the limiting factor, yes? So lights should be the limiter, and for low CO2 that means low light. My light looks bright to me, but based on those old watts/lumen per liter calculations its in the low range. So I am still uncertain about this.

And last of todays ramblings, should I decrease the fert dosage since its low tech? Im told over and over again that ferts do not cause algae, but can it still cause issues if theres a lot of unused stuff floating about? What if I need such a high dose, of NO3 for instance? Lookin at -you- Seachem Matrix, suspected nitrate thief


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## Maxplantinstitute

A nice planted tank with no co2 is possible. It's just a bit harder. This is just my personal opinion.  I may be wrong.
 With co2 plants grow faster and can better compete out algea.

 I think your plants look good. I have the same salvinia floating plants and my always seem to show a deficiency of some sort. 

With no co2 and low-ish lights, you probably could just dose macros once a week after w.c 
I would still dose micro in several small doses since it doesn't "last" in aquarium water.

You should find some way to make water changes as easy as possible.
I change 100liter in less than 1 hour from start to finish. With trimming and filter cleaning that doubles. 
I put a 30 liter bucket on a shelf besides my tank to siphon new water into the tank. I mix up about half og the gh/kh/ferts in the first 30 liters. When this bucket is full I start siphoning out tank water straight into the drain. 
I have a long hose connected to my shower mixer and when I start to siphon water back into my tank from the bucket I also fill water into the bucket from the shower tap. So no carrying water....and no deaths from gas bubbles so far.


 

Cold water looses it's ability to hold gasses as it heats up. So bubbles is inevitable as long as you refill straight from the tap.
I have been trying to figure out a way of pre-mixing my water.
I would have to store it in a big drum, heat it, mix whatever i need to add, sirculate and pump it into my tank. It would be great but requires to much equipment.


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## Hufsa

The gas problem seems to be helped a lot by refilling super slowly, over about 2 hours or more. Much fewer bubbles are formed, now, most of the bubbles in the water look to be made by the filter splashing the surface when the water level is low. I think the very thin stream of water in combination with the churning of the filter outlets help it offgas quickly. I like to have the filter running during, to distribute the Prime and to mix the new water well.
Using 2 hours to refill is doable for me since it just requires checking up on it with a timer every now and then.

Dosing less ferts total is tempting, if its not truly needed then it would reduce my need for big water changes.


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## Maxplantinstitute

Hufsa said:


> Dosing less ferts total is tempting, if its not truly needed then it would reduce my need for big water changes.


I think you misunderstood what I was trying so say.
What I meant was: you can dose macro once a week, because your plants will not consume ferts very fast. 
Keep the total macro amount the same or even higher.


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## Hufsa

Maxplantinstitute said:


> I think you misunderstood what I was trying so say.
> What I meant was: you can dose macro once a week, because your plants will not consume ferts very fast.
> Keep the total macro amount the same or even higher.



Ah, sorry, my bad. I was just sort of musing to myself about decreasing dosing overall. But I dont think I will, even if full EI is overkill for low tech, then thats sort of the whole point isnt it, to make sure there is plenty.
I get what you are saying about front loading macros. It sounds appealing with less work, but im worried about the plants running out during the week even though they shouldnt.

I have read a lot of journals where they use Biohome or Matrix as their main filter media, and they all seem to do just fine, so my nitrate "thing" with Matrix is probably just in my head. For those who have noticed I added a little extra bit to my journal title, since what I definitely have enough of is thinking and grumbling over things! Possibly far too much, leading to thinking toxicity  At least im somewhat self aware 

I snapped a quick picture of the rotundifolia from above, camera was much more helpful today.
Is it supposed to have this kind of dark veining?
Macros should be good, 30 ppm NO3, 3 ppm PO4, 24 ppm K during the course of the week.
Micros from CSM+B dosed to 0.6 ppm fe, as well as approx 0.6 ppm of iron DTPA during the week. That leaves CO2 and GH (Ca/Mg) issues the most likely candidates..
I do have soft water and havent been good about adding GH booster, and no extra Mg.
My water supply reports 22 ppm average of Ca.
I added about 5 ppm of Mg today, lets see if we get any changes


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> I do have soft water and havent been good about adding GH booster, and no extra Mg.
> My water supply reports 22 ppm average of Ca.
> I added about 5 ppm of Mg today, lets see if we get any changes


That looks pretty conclusively like iron (Fe) deficiency.

New leaves that are small, pale and chlorotic suggests a deficiency of a non-mobile nutrient, and iron both causes those growth abnormalities and is non-mobile. Have a look at @Zeus.'s <"comments">.

We have quite a <"few iron deficient _Rotala">_ threads. 

cheers Darrel


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## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That looks pretty conclusively like iron (Fe) deficiency.



Even when Ive been adding 430 mg of Fe DTPA 8% three times a week? 
It should work out to around the ballpark of 0.6 ppm weekly, based on this from the calulator:
"To reach your target of *0.2ppm Fe* you will need to add *514 milligrams (equivalent to 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp )* DTPA Fe (7%) to your 180L aquarium"

I dont mean to doubt your knowledge Darrel, you are probably right, I was just surprised since I thought I had the iron bit sorted out now 
How much would you suggest I add?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> Even when Ive been adding 430 mg of Fe DTPA 8% three times a week?


Does seem strange, but I can't see what else it can be. Hopefully @Zeus. will chip in.


Zeus. said:


> I also found the FeDTPA doesnt discolour the tank much at all compared to FeEDDHA
> 
> I still was getting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I started dosing some FeEDDHA manually on micro day - the above pic was post adding the FeEDDHA hence the green being back in the new growth.
> 
> Think the FeDPTA was breaking down either in the micro mix or by the light.


You can get other ions interfere with the uptake of Fe ions, but normally that would be calcium (Ca++), and you don't have much of that. Lack of magnesium  (Mg) could also cause some chlorosis, but that would effect older leaves.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Its hard for me to tell if the older leaves are also chlorotic, since they tend to get covered by algae very quickly. I uprooted some rotundifolia and a bit of ludwigia to get some good pictures of the older leaves. The hygrophila is also doing some weird curling thing on some of the new shoots.


----------



## Zeus.

Hufsa said:


> Will a lack of CO2 cause stunting like this?



I am no expert

Inter stem elongation  well if this was a High Tech tank with CO2 injection @ceg4048  would be quoting the experiments done on Rice and saying it was due to poor CO2 levels with poor flow in the tank. So it would follow IMO that in a non injected CO2 tank the Inter stem elongation is due to the same poor CO2 levels plus lack of flow would still apply as the experiments done on rice wasn't with CO2 injection and was based on the CO2 levels at certain depths in the rice paddy fields with low flow. The rotala that is growing well with shorter distance between the stems is getting better flow and hence CO2 so the distance is shorter plus getting more light so the rotala is also growing better. Flow may also be better higher up in the tank.

I see this same picture on my Rotala in my potted tank high tech tank, when the rotala in pots is planted close together the rotala has small leaves as it competes for the CO2 and because its so closely packed together flow is reduced which compounds the CO2 levels again the result is Inter stem elongation and small leaves, a few rotata break though which then get better CO2 levels and better light and presso the poor growth transforms like your has plus the leaves turn reddish dependant on light levels. The only difference is my tank is CO2 injected and yours isnt but IMO the cause is the same CO2 deficiency due to inadequate flow.




Hufsa said:


> View attachment 130532



Nice pic 

My rotala has the veining on the leaves just like yours not quite as distinct.

Plus your P. Pogostemon helferi shows no signs of an Fe issue IMO and its Pogostemon helferi thats show Fe issues first in my tank with hard water.




Think the tank just needs some CO2 injection 1-3 BPS 24/7 would probably work wonders with tad more flow OFC


----------



## Hufsa

Thanks for your reply Zeus 
Adding CO2 is not an option, but flow and surface agitation was improved dramatically 2 weeks ago with the new filter. Maybe its a bit too early still to gauge wether or not it has had a positive effect on the plants? Since most of the plant mass will be from before this change. Everything happens slower in low tech.

[Edit]
If it continues to be an issue, then I guess another option would be to decrease the light further, to decrease the demand for CO2?
Maybe turn off one of the bulbs, since I dont fancy decreasing light period much more..
I like to be able to look at my tank with light and not just have a dark box all day


----------



## Tim Harrison

On the whole I think you're doing okay, but the system is out of balance. I'd guess the main culprit is too high a light intensity driving plant growth that can not be sustained by available CO2.
Under those conditions the uptake of nutrients will be limited and plants will suffer deficiencies no matter how much fertiliser you chuck in to your tank. Faster growing stems like Rotala will divert resources to growing new leaves, the older lower leaves will start to senesce and attract algae.
It might also account of the elongated internodes. But plants will never grow as compact low-energy as they will with 30ppm CO2 from a pressurised system.

I know you're not keen on reducing the photoperiod but a temporary reduction to 6hrs, until you have the algae under control, would be a good idea. In the meantime, it would also help if you...
Take a look at Tom Barrs Non Co2 Methods for the basic principles involved.
Increase the plant density, and add some floating plants, and/or plant some Vallis or similar and allow the leaves to grow across the surface.
Stay on top of filter maintenance and tank husbandry to reduce organics.
You could also give some thought to dosing LC, you might get better growth as well as a helping hand eradicating algae. If you choose this latter route follow Tom's guidelines for fertz and water changes.


----------



## Hufsa

Tim Harrison said:


> Take a look at Tom Barrs Non Co2 Methods for the basic principles involved.
> Increase the plant density, ...



This seems like a solid plan, I have given it a good read and new dosing will be once a week macros of 10 ppm NO3, 1 ppm PO4, 10 ppm K, plus equivalent reduction in the other bits. Gonna continue to spread micros out over 3 days because of availability. Essentially 1/3 the fert amount that I have been adding until now.
I will avoid big water changes to reduce fluctuations in CO2. The shrimp should be happy about that 
I can use the TDS pen to make sure im not getting old tank syndrome, and adjust water change frequency and amount by those trends.

I turned off one of the light bulbs this morning, so lights should effectively be dimmed by 50%.

More plants are at the top of the list, waiting for my fish store to get in a new shipment. Planning to get lots more stem plants.

Fingers crossed for steadier plant growth, less algae and less work with fert dosing and stressing about water changes


----------



## Hufsa

I quite like the light at 50% intensity, its less of a "bright stage" level of lighting and more of a "cosy livingroom". My other half seems to have seen fit to fix "the issue" by turning the bulb back on again after I left for work yesterday, but he has now been informed that it was in fact intentional 

I happened to be mixing up a new batch of some ferts on tuesday and had a real problem following my K recipe. Apparently the numbers I wrote down, for 1 ppm per pump, is actually insoluble for my tank size and therefore I have no idea how I got it mixed up last time or how much K I have actually been dosing as a result. Probably less than I assumed since it wouldnt have been fully dissolved. New batch will have to be 0.25 ppm per pump, which means more pumping for me but oh well. Maybe it can count as exercise  Talk about being a lazy fishkeeper


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Hufsa said:


> Apparently the numbers I wrote down, for 1 ppm per pump, is actually insoluble for my tank size and therefore I have no idea how I got it mixed up last time or how much K I have actually been dosing as a result.


Are you sure? Nearly all potassium (K - kalium) salts are really soluble, for example you can dissolve 254g of KCl in a litre of (tank temperature) water.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> Are you sure?



I have K2SO4, apparently 1 ppm per 1.5 ml pump is insoluble for a 180 liter tank. Idk if container size matters but 400 ml solution.
I didnt find out until I added it in real life, so both calculator and practice says it doesnt work out


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> I have K2SO4





Hufsa said:


> I didnt find out until I added it in real life, so both calculator and practice says it doesnt work out


That is a lot less soluble, about 120g per litre, so you are almost twice the solubility limit. If you have other salts in solution? You also have to factor in the common ion effect, meaning that <"any less soluble salt"> (most of them) will come out of solution first.





Hufsa said:


> 1 ppm per 1.5 ml pump is insoluble for a 180 liter tank. Idk if container size matters but 400 ml solution


Container size does matter. You would need to divide 120 by 2.5, to get the maximum weight of K2SO4 you could add to 400cm3 of stock solution, and that is 48 g. I won't do all the maths, but but you would need about:

 107g of K2SO4 
to give you 1ppm of K in 180 litres 
dosing 1.5mL of solution.
Could you just dose a larger volume? 15mL would mean that you only need ~11g of K2SO4, and you would still get over three weeks of dosing out of a 400 mL container.

*The maths bit*
The RMM of K2SO4 is 174.3, and the RAM of potassium is 39.1, you have two of them so that is 78.2 and 45% K. The last thing is to multiply 48 by 0.45 and that is 21.5g of K. Divide 48 by 0.45 and you get ~107g and 1ppm K.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

I have pumps that dispense 1.5 ml at a time, so I only really need to pump a few more times because of this, so its not a very big issue 
I have separate macro bottles, so theres only K added to that particular bottle. I use "battery water", which says its demineralised water for refilling of batteries and steam uhm.. irons? The thing that makes your shirts smooth and non crinkly. I think I read somewhere that this is a cheaper but probably mostly equivalent substitute to real RO water or destilled water, which tends to cost a bit more.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> I have pumps that dispense 1.5 ml at a time, so I only really need to pump a few more times because of this


OK.





Hufsa said:


> I use "battery water", which says its demineralised water for refilling of batteries and steam uhm.. irons? The thing that makes your shirts smooth and non crinkly.


Yes, we call them "irons". 





Hufsa said:


> real RO water or destilled water, which tends to cost a bit more


Strange it should all be the same, so cheapest is fine.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

Whilst contravetial on here... you might also like to try a siesta lighting regime to try and maximise available co2 during lights on periods. George Farmer is also currently giving this a go as per his YouTube.


----------



## Ray

I'm very confused how Seachem Matrix which is apparently a biological filter media claims it is going to control nitrates. Last time I checked the nitrogen cycle produced nitrates (which of course your plants need!).

Your setup sounds good.  Can we see a full tank shot?  Check flow is getting to whole tank (2000 lph is enough on paper for 180l), keep up with the reduced light - some combo of 6 hours, no reflector, old tubes, floating plants, raise the height above water.  

If you get stuck you could try daily dosing liquid carbon (Easylife EasyCarbo or Seachem Excel) - it will annoy the algae and should give the plants a boost IF there is too much light for the available CO2.  Caveat, so long as you're not growing vallisneria.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





Ray said:


> I'm very confused how Seachem Matrix which is apparently a biological filter media claims it is going to control nitrates. Last time I checked the nitrogen cycle produced nitrates


The idea is that you get simultaneous aerobic nitrification and anaerobic denitrification in the filter media. This is dependent upon having a biofilm where the nitrification occurs in the outer layers and this helps to deplete the oxygen so that the inner pore space can harbour nitrate reducing bacteria.

It is theoretically possible, but it is <"so seriously flawed as a concept"> I really strongly advice people to try and ensure that they get as much oxygen as possible into the filter as possible.

One thing I've found from other forums is that, even experienced, aquarists often fail to appreciate <"how effective plants"> are at removing all forms of fixed nitrogen.

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
I should also have said welcome back @Ray.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ray

Thanks Daryl on both counts - I'm surprised anyone remembers me!   I agree, the idea of trying to achieve both aerobic and anaerobic respiration in the same filter sounds to me like an insane plan.  Even if you could do it (and planted tank folks shouldn't), you'd be walking on a knife edge re. oxygen levels and if that equilibrium failed it would potentially be catastrophic.


----------



## Hufsa

Our new plan to avoid fluctuating CO2 sadly had to be put on pause. I discovered a bacterial infection on one of my corys, and upon testing the water (yes i know, tests), found that there was a reading of 0,025 - 0,05 nitrite. I assume that the transfer of the complete filter media from the old Eheim to the new Aquael was too big of a change for the bacteria and thus I had a spike without me knowing. That is, until one of the fish got sick. Shame on me for not testing daily after such a change to make sure everything went ok. But if I learn from it then it is not all negative.

Ive been doing daily 50% water changes and the fish has now fully recovered without any medication.
There are still slight readings for nitrite, so I will continue with the daily water changes until the filter is back on its feet.




Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Whilst contravetial on here... you might also like to try a siesta lighting regime to try and maximise available co2 during lights on periods. George Farmer is also currently giving this a go as per his YouTube.



I read a bit about the siesta method before, it does seem like a highly disputed subject. Havent really seen anyone showing great results either positive or negative for it. I am personally unsure if I think that the plants will actually rest during the dark siesta. How long do they need to become inactive, and how long again to be active after this rest period. And wouldnt the algae be better at dealing with this sort of fast flip flopping. I dont know.




Ray said:


> I'm very confused how Seachem Matrix which is apparently a biological filter media claims it is going to control nitrates. Last time I checked the nitrogen cycle produced nitrates (which of course your plants need!).
> 
> Your setup sounds good.  Can we see a full tank shot?  Check flow is getting to whole tank (2000 lph is enough on paper for 180l), keep up with the reduced light - some combo of 6 hours, no reflector, old tubes, floating plants, raise the height above water.
> 
> If you get stuck you could try daily dosing liquid carbon (Easylife EasyCarbo or Seachem Excel) - it will annoy the algae and should give the plants a boost IF there is too much light for the available CO2.  Caveat, so long as you're not growing vallisneria.



Seachem claims that the bits of Matrix are deep enough to have anerobic cores, who knows if this is actually the case. Either way, its unlikely to be some sort of magical bogeyman that I can blame for all my troubles.

Full tank shot attached, its not exactly where I want to have it, to say the least, but it is in progress. Still waiting to get more plants. Photos taken right after water change, so please excuse the bubbles.

I have a spray bar running the back length of the tank, and the flow is a fair bit more than most low tech tanks, I am confident enough to say. If I squeeze any more pressure from the spray bar, the fish food gets blasted into oblivion immediately, the shrimp look like they are in a wind tunnel when they cross the sandy areas, and the plants start "whipping" more than waving in the flow. The fish can deal with even higher flow, but for those three reasons I am wanting to keep the flow at this level. Its a "good swirl all around" and all the plants are moving. There is slightly less movement in the back left corner, partially because this spraybar that I am using right now has uneven pressure and jets that dont go perfectly straight, especially at the start of the bar. I am gathering materials to make a custom one at the moment, and hope to be able to get straight jets and even pressure all along. Another reason is the density of the bolbitis and the h. difformis breaking up some of the flow in that area.

The light is currently running at only one out of two bulbs, and very annoyingly to me, only 6 hours a day. The bulbs were replaced at the start of my journal so they are no longer old, but the reflector is still gone, and it doesnt look like I should replace that any time soon.

I am in a war with the honey gouramis over the floating plants. The female gourami, less affectionately named Miss Piggy, insists on eating off all the roots of the floating plants. Obviously the plants are not super happy about this, and coupled with the high flow in the tank they are having a -very- bad month.
Ive been having trouble keeping the plants contained in one corner when the little fat blahblahblahblahblahblahblah keeps eating the roots off and making them float out into the tank, to get bashed around by the spray bar and submerged to the point where the air coating of the salvinia leaves are destroyed, and then the leaf dies. I have two and a half small plants left at this point. I have made prototype number 532 of the floating plant containment corner, and it looks like this one is actually effective enough. Its made of stiff black plastic mesh attached to two suction cups with thread, and it goes both above the water surface and a bit below, to keep them in even when the water level drops a bit due to evaporation. I am taking them out and putting them in a small cup temporarily during the water changes, so that they dont get bashed around any more.

I dont really want to dose liquid carbon, it takes my tank in the wrong direction in relation to what I want.
I want to keep things simple and preferably in the direction of less fiddling and adding and mucking about, rather than more complicated. I also have concerns regarding adding ""some unknown chemical"" that we dont know exactly what does, into our tanks full of critters. I am growing a bit of vallisneria, not very well may I add, but I would like to give it a good go before I give up on it. I might have too soft water for it.

All in all the plants are still doing alright, its not perfect but it sure isnt a disaster either.
Getting some thread algae and some older leaves getting coated in algae still.
Most of the plants are growing just fine, the rotala has unstunted slightly, its not super happy but its not dying either. The hygrophila difformis is healthy enough that I can take off the top shoots to make it branch without issue, and the one new plant I got my hands on is growing very well. Its heteranthera zosterifolia, and it made the transition from tissue culture cup to my tank without missing a beat. Very pleased about this. I need more bushy plants to grow well so I can start covering up the back wall. Tank looks much too bare for me right now.


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

Looks good to me!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Looks good to me!





Hufsa said:


> All in all the plants are still doing alright,


Agreed plant health looks pretty good.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Ray

Hufsa said:


> Full tank shot attached, its not exactly where I want to have it, to say the least, but it is in progress. Still waiting to get more plants. Photos taken right after water change, so please excuse the bubbles.



Looking very good indeed - thanks for sharing and please give another update in due course...


----------



## Hufsa

Ive been looking for "the perfect" piece(s) of wood to have in my tank for ages now it feels. My plan is to have a big piece on the left side of the middle, and then a smaller complementary piece on the right hand side.

I havent managed to find nice pieces for sale. My usual redmoor pusher has a lot of very large pieces atm but they are much too big for my tank. Shame, they are some insane looking roots for a ~700 liter aquarium.

I had a rummage through my existing hoard for the third or fourth time, and with a bit of imagining and a bit of sawing I came up with this one for the left hand side.




I dont usually like when wood is arranged pointing straight up at the sky, it looks a bit artificial to me. I like to try to keep a balance between the man made and the natural looking, and I just keep asking myself if roots would grow that way in the wild. For a biotope style you would have the main body of the wood on top, and the roots reaching downwards towards the substrate, like the exposed roots of a tree. Or, you could go for the fallen branch look, which would be sideways, I suppose. I quite like the former setup visually, but it makes planting a big nightmare, the wood shadows the tank and its so hard to plant between the fingers of the wood, and it takes up a lot of space.

I have some african filter shrimp that I would love to have more visible, and I think some roots sticking out into the fast flowing water of the spray bar would be good to help entice them out. This root is therefore a sort of compromise between all those. The word windswept comes to mind when I look at it.

I have it soaking in my tank right now, with some cobbles of stone weighing it down. The bolbitis sits at the left side of the main body and the narrow leaf java fern sits on the right. I like how much height it adds to those plants, they suddenly seem a lot bigger and the bolbitis is my absolute favorite plant so I want it to have the main role in the tank. However, they almost completely cover up all the nice wood 
Why must this be so hard!?





Which brings me to my second pet peeve, which are when people make amazing looking hardscapes but they get covered completely with plants rendering them almost invisible 

So Im looking for a perfect red moor root that will allow one big fat bolbitis to sit on it and its little brother the java fern, it must not take up too much space in the tank for planting, and it must also have a lot of exposed roots somehow. Demanding, who me? 
Im not sure my current root is the one, time will tell.


----------



## Hufsa

Im running a siesta period on the lights now as well, just for fun really. Its on for 4 hours, off for 3, and then on for 4 hours again. I was a bit naughty when I set it up and snuck the total time back up to 8 hours.
Lights are still running on only one bulb, but the spread is not great. I turned the front bulb off since the stems at the back need the light the most.

Im toying with the idea of setting up some cheapo DIY led lighting, since I would like the tank to be dimmer but with better light spread. Since it doesnt have to be bright, Im thinking I could get away with it, maybe.
It seems really wasteful and excessive to buy one or even two (for spread) expensive aquarium LED lights, only to run them at 10%, you know.


----------



## Tankless

Hi Hufsa,

Is the filter silent as advertised?


----------



## Hufsa

Its very silent -except- for its issue with bubbles/air building up. Im in contact with the manufacturer trying to get them to send out a fixed part.
Take a look at this post and thread https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-aquael-ultramax.56113/page-3#post-557487


----------



## Tankless

Does the noise increase when the air builds up? I noticed today that after a while that the filter became quite noisey. I turned it off and then the noise had gone. I will contact the seller tomorrow.


----------



## Hufsa

Im not sure, but I can hear the bubbles purging once or twice an hour from the other room. So that part is noisy. Shame about these design issues, I like the filter a lot otherwise. Right now I was advised to turn the output a little bit down, until they can send me an updated rotor part that they are starting production on ‍
I do want to keep using this filter, only want the bubble issue sorted out.


----------



## Tankless

Do you have the same noise as this? I've uploaded a video of the noise filter. I have turned it off for the night.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=14jluOV5mUV6uFija-cQHUlcwPseniWYz

Reading through the other thread that you sent, I think it might be related to the impeller shaft as it does not touch the rubber.


----------



## Hufsa

I believe the rod is supposed to be that way.


----------



## Hufsa

Mine does not make your sound, that sounds very bad and I would not run the filter like that. Sounds almost like its running dry


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

Tankless said:


> I turned it off and then the noise had gone.


That’s one solution...


----------



## Tankless

Hufsa said:


> Mine does not make your sound, that sounds very bad and I would not run the filter like that. Sounds almost like its running dry



I took it apart and then reassembled it. I couldn't visibly see anything wrong with it. Do you keep the inlet and outlet speed a similar value? I've never had a problem of inlet flow being higher than the outlet flow.


----------



## Hufsa

Tankless said:


> I took it apart and then reassembled it. I couldn't visibly see anything wrong with it. Do you keep the inlet and outlet speed a similar value? I've never had a problem of inlet flow being higher than the outlet flow.



I had been running both inlet and outlet flow at max, however, the lady at Aquael suggested to reduce output by a little bit as a temporary measure for the air bubbles. Im not sure if it had much effect for me, I havent listened closely over long term to see if the bubble frequency is less now than before.

This is the picture they sent as a guide for the temporary measure.


 

It seems your filter has a much bigger problem than mine, mine "runs" fine enough but it slowly builds up bubbles that then purge into the tank once or twice an hour. Your filter seems to not run fine at all based on the noise. Are you sure that you have primed the filter correctly, and that it is completely filled with water? The sound from the clip reminded me of the sound my Eheim makes when I havent primed it (filled with water) enough, and the impeller runs dry. It is very damaging to the impeller to run like this. If you have primed correctly, then I would advise you not to run the filter at all until they can help you.

The guy in the thread i linked above, posted a picture of a rotor cover with an air tube attached. According to the Aquael rep, my filter already has this rotor fix built in, but without the visible air tube. But there is still an issue with air building up in the filter. She said that they are starting production of a new rotor in about a weeks time, and that they will ship this new part out to me after that. So I gather that this filter has had not only one part update, but soon two, to fix air issues. Hopefully second time's the charm?

I want to put it down here that I have been very happy with the response I got from Aquael, they responded quickly to my email and have been very helpful trying to get this problem sorted.


----------



## Hufsa

Bit of an update on my tank, over a month has passed since I had to start doing daily water changes, and I am STILL DOING THEM  Im so tired of it. Water is still testing around 0,025 nitrite  Why is this taking so gosh darn long to resolve  I have tested the tap and it shows 0, for those wondering about false positives.

A more positive thing, I got some long anticipated plant additions in on tuesday 
Hottonia palustris, Limnophila sessiliflora, Hygrophila costata (previously known as angustifolia), Rotala sp Green and Limnobium laevigatum (amazon frogbit). This last one grows bigger and more numerous roots than the salvinia, so I am hoping it will be more resistant to the gourami munching.

I have no idea why I thought it would be a good idea to add yet another rotala to my tank, this one is even rated medium difficulty. Maybe I just like to punish myself?  The Rotala rotundifolia is the 1. plant that struggles the most in the tank, despite its supposed easy rating. The Pogostemon helferi seems like a beginner plant in comparison 
It all points towards CO2 being the issue. Rotala grow fast and therefore they are the first to hit the brick wall of CO2 deficiency. It makes a lot of sense to me anyway.

The plants have been growing fairly well with daily water changes. Its almost as if the water change water is full of CO2 that the plants need 
I get some thread algae, but not a ton. I didnt change water a weekend when I ran out of dechlorinator due to my poor planning, and lo and behold the thread algae almost tripled in amount. Fluctuating levels say What?

I just put in an order on some LED lights, these will be fully dimmable and I am looking forward to making my tank a dark and gloomy place! Just kidding  But I will for sure turn the lights way down. This tank sorely needs to ease up on the speed pedal (light). I found a webshop that sells IP68 (fully waterproof) led lights at 18 GBP each, accessories not included. Great price and perfect for me since I want spread and not intensity. I dont fancy paying $$$$$ for something that I will be dimming to ~10-20%  They are 6500K which is nice, and have a bunch of lumens but that doesnt really matter.


----------



## Parablennius

At least with the Frogbit you'll be able negate any possible CO2 issues.


----------



## Hufsa

Parablennius said:


> At least with the Frogbit you'll be able negate any possible CO2 issues.



I get what youre saying, the frogbit wont be CO2 or light limited, so it will respond only to nutrient status, very useful plant in this way. It doesnt help the poor rotala and the other plants confined to under the water surface though


----------



## Hufsa

The new LED lights arrived today.
Looked pretty good quality, they are completely covered in clear silicone and have a nice aluminum backing. Had issues getting them up and running, turns out the metal on the connectors had rusted/oxidised (?) in storage on some of the parts, and the barrel plugs would only work if they were rotated just so and so. Alright, shot off a message to the shop, they would send out replacements next week. All seems good.
I disassemble my T8 lighting top to take out the T8 tubes, holders and reflectors, and attach the LED bars with some double sided tape. Its a temporary attachment until I make a DIY hood.
Get it on my tank, and I hate it 
The 6500k LED is way colder than my 6500k tubes, very blue and not cozy warm white like I had it. And the shimmer. I never thought about shimmer until now, but I have discovered that I really dislike it.
I think I will have to return the lights 

Now Im really bummed out and wondering what to do.
Maybe I cant get LEDs at all, if they all shimmer like this? 
Trying to figure out if T5/T8 will be a better option for me..

Link to my thread about shimmer below
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/i-hate-shimmer-is-there-hope-for-me.59923/


----------



## Andrew T

Twinstar S model has a very nice warm 6500k light and a diffusing sheet panel over all the LED’s. Almost no shimmer.


----------



## Hufsa

Andrew T said:


> Twinstar S model has a very nice warm 6500k light and a diffusing sheet panel over all the LED’s. Almost no shimmer.



Thanks for the tip Andrew  I checked them out and they look to be around ~350 euro price range, is this correct?  That is a fair bit out of my price range unfortunately 


Before I discovered my dislike for shimmer and my need for low light, I wanted to get a Fluval 3.0 Plant.
Its still an option, maybe I should post a thread asking owners of this light how much shimmer it gives. And I might be able to make a homemade diffuser for it as well with window foil.. hmm..

Im also asking around about the price of a set of dimmable T5 bulb "holders", but I think with the dimmer it might climb up towards the price of the Fluval. (Yep, just got a message from "my dealer", its gonna be more expensive than the Fluval.)

Still hoping I can get low light on the cheap.
A third option would be to really DIY something from Ebay.


Fluval 3.0
Pro; Can adjust colors so I get it exactly the way I want, less heat, less power drain.
Con; Shimmer risk and the possibility of having to modify the light further, expensive, might have to get two for spread doubling the price.

T5
Pro; I know I like the colors of the tubes I have, no shimmering.
Con; Heat, power drain, have to buy new tubes to get different colors, also expensive.

Ebay DIY LED
Pro; Cheap maybe, could get the kind of LED I wanted.
Con; Would have to learn what I need and do it all myself, getting the right LEDs and waterproofing and hooking it all up with all the accessories.


Oh and I forgot to mention, they all need to survive in a closed top with condensation. 
My SO has vetoed open top aquariums. If I leave the lid off for just a few hours the room gets noticeably clammy and we already have mold issues, so I can understand it.


----------



## Hufsa

Some time has passed since my last update, and I had been doing daily 50% water changes for almost two months based on the nitrite readings. I was honestly getting -real- fed up with this routine. Towards the end of this period, some days slipped in between changes. First every other day, and then every 2 days without a water change.. But the test readings remained the same level. Veeery suspicious. What would be the odds that the nitrite problem would start to resolve exactly when I got fed up and exactly at the same rate of my water change "neglect"? Im guessing pretty low odds. At the start of the daily water change period I tested the tap water and got a clear reading of 0, so I assumed the test was working correctly and didnt cross reference with tap water any more after that. But now I tested the tap water and it also showed the same small reading for nitrite. So likely either tap water had nitrite in it (unlikely I should think), or the test has been lying to me. Grrr.

I had an unopened test at hand, cracked it open and what do you know, it showed 0 nitrite in my tank. God knows how long the water has been fine. Im a bit confused and have no idea what exactly has happened.
All I know is that I had a sick fish at one point, I lost a gourami very suddenly about a month back, and that I have no way to know for sure what levels where what when. But Im fairly confident that its okay now, anyway.
The nitrite test that turned unreliable was opened some time in august 2019. So it had not been open that long. Do they really go bad this fast?

This weekend I officially declared that I could finally start the low tech plan, and only change water when TDS rises too much. Very pleased about this. And yesterday, I came home to the very pleasant surprise of corydoras venezuelanus eggs. Their first spawn  I found almost 50 eggs, and placed them in a breeding box. I suspect some have not been fertilized, they are a bit white. But not too strange that they muck it up a bit when its their first time. I hope to raise the fry to a size just big enough to not get eaten, and then release them back into the main tank to do the rest of their growing there. From my previous experiences with breeding corys, getting enough food into the newly hatched fry will be the most challenging aspect. Past that point it is pretty easy. I used to breed corydoras panda in my external filter  Every time I cleaned it I would find a few new individuals that I could introduce into the bright world of the main tank. But Im planning to keep the corys out of the filter this time around.



 


The new plant additions I wrote about last time has been a bit of a mixed bag. 
The Limnophila sessiliflora didnt skip a beat and started growing right away. I dont think it even noticed it went from emersed to submerged. Then again, this plant is firmly in my category of "toilet bowl growers", so I wasnt very surprised. 
The Hottonia palustris arrived with a few leaves jelly-like and melted, and has since shed all its leaves completely. Some stems seem to be slowly dying while a few others are putting out small, stunted looking new shoots. I thought this one was supposed to be easy? Im just letting it decide on its own what it wants to do, and leaving it to it. 
Rotala sp Green arrived as a pot with plants that were more the size of what I'd expect an in vitro plant to be. It was very small and delicate and I suspect without much energy reserves in the plant. Its not looking great. It hasnt shed leaves like the hottonia but is barely growing. I was kinda prepared for this outcome, so this plant is also allowed to sort itself out without fussing from my side.
Hygrophila costata, the artist formerly known as angustifolia. Growing nicely. Still looking kinda emersed-y, will replant tops once I get more mass. No fuss, as expected from hygrophila.

The amazon frogbit is doing alright as well, it hasnt multiplied that much which leads me to think I dont have a lot of macros in the tank. This plant seems to tolerate much better the attention of the gourami. Maybe the roots look less like tasty worms. Plant looks healthy. A really good "canary" plant. 

As a sort of hail mary towards the end of my daily water change regimen, I tried dosing only P, K and micros, to try to force the plants to take up the nitrite. Now I know the nitrite probably wasnt there any more, and the lack of N would mean plants growing  slower (even relative to low tech), and frogbit not multiplying much. So Ive bunged a bit more N in now and will see how it goes.
Hopefully it will help the two plants that are struggling. It might have been hard for them to compete against the more established and aggressive plants when nutrients were scarce.

I got a pot of Myriophyllum mattogrossense today, I really wanted to get "Guyana" but have been unable to find it, but I can try my hand at this one and see how it does.

Shortly after my last post I ordered the Fluval Plant 3.0 Led light, and 3 weeks later it has still not been shipped. The german webshop I order from sometimes is notorious for shipping things in a leisurely pace, or maybe whenever they feel like it. Sometimes they will respond to your emails, but most often not  If they werent so cheap, I dont think anyone would buy anything from them. Maybe it will arrive before I die of old age  Its alright anyway, tank is ticking along as normal in the mean time.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Hufsa said:


> the test has been lying to me.


A lot of people don't trust test kits.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-about-test-kits.52487/


----------



## Hufsa

Long time no see (again!)
Things have been ticking along at a very leisurely pace.

Ive been wanting to write a little disclaimer about the general vibe of my posts. I realised that I mainly write about the things that are a problem or are going wrong, and not so much about when things are going well. I hope this is not interpreted as negativity, I write about the problems the most because I find them most interesting. I feel like overcoming the problems is how you get better at plant and fishkeeping. So im not having a horrible time with everything fishkeeping and only struggling if it seems that way. Hope this makes sense 

A fair few things have happened since last time.
Some of the eggs pictured in my last post are now small copies of their parents. Many were unfertilized, about 12 hatched from 40 or so eggs. 5 again survived long enough to be released into the main tank once they were a certain size. And now remains 3 (we think.) 






The TDS based minimal water change regime has had mixed results. I assume the plants should be firmly used to the low CO2 levels now 2 months in, but there hasnt been a drastic change in hair algae levels. Well not for the better anyway. Im also seeing more and more black beard algae. So something has likely changed in the water. The BBA is already coating several branches of the driftwood and will soon have taken over the rocks, out-competing the prettier green (spot?) algae. Id be pretty happy with BBA if it was a nicer green color, but its very reddish black and while the luscious locks flow prettily in the current, the plants are also suffering so im gonna try to get rid of it.










I think I made a mistake when I let go of my insane water change regimen, because I also let the fertilization regime go completely out the window. At first it seemed okay, but slowly plants that were doing good were starting to struggle more and more. The blyxa started shedding a lot of leaves, the p. helferi slowed its growth, same with s. repens etc. Even hygrophila difformis took a big hit after I removed the tops and expected it to grow back the way it had done before. It actually hasnt picked up speed in its growth until now, 2 months later. That is ridiculous for a plant in the category "toilet bowl grower".

I think my tank just ran out of fuel basically.

It probably doesnt help that I now have a total of 5 very aggressively growing stem plants in there.
Hygrophila difformis, Heteranthera zosterifolia, Limnophila sessiliflora, Myriophyllum mattogrossense and Hygrophila angustifolia are all pretty weedy and hungry plants. H. z. and L. s. have been the clear winners in the competition for food during this time.

I dont think my fish load is very high, but im not entirely sure, id welcome some input. I feel like the tank has plenty of fish to look at but according to the plants they do not generate a lot of nitrates 
20 corydoras venezuelanus + a few fry, 1 honey gourami and 7 otocinclus in 180 liters. They get fed a lot of food because of the cory fry. Well, I like feeding them a lot regardless but at least with the cory fry I have a convenient excuse  Oh and there are also two filter shrimp and a bunch of neos but im not sure if they count as fish really.

TDS has not increased much at all through 2 months, which further adds to my belief that the tank just needs more go-go juice. At 09.03.20 TDS was 113 and increased only to 166 by 24.04.20. After that I think I started adding more ferts and today 17.05.20 it measures 215 TDS. I think the bulk of this number is dissolved organics that are not usable to the plants.

So im gonna have to make some changes to the "just let it go" thing.
Im gonna add a moderate to reasonably high amount of fertilizer at regular intervals each week, and then each sunday change however much water needs changing to maintain the TDS. It feels like this is going to be a -lot- of ferts/nitrate but plants say nay.

The plants seem to be responding positively already to increased amounts of fertilizer. Blyxa has stopped mass shedding leaves and the H. difformis is finally growing. I picked off a lot of old yellowing leaves from the H. angustifolia that looked a lot like the pictures you see of nitrogen deficiency. This should allow it to focus on the growing tops.

Some pictures of the current state of the plants; 
Please note my mediocre phone camera makes the tops of the plants look washed out and white, they are not like this in reality. They would be severely iron deficient if they actually looked like this  There were beginnings of iron deficiency a few weeks ago, especially showing in the p. helferi. It resolved once I started adding more ferts overall including iron.



 

 





 

 




Rotala sp Green has been thrown out completely. It never recovered, and while it wasnt dead it wasnt really living either. I decided to end its suffering. It was more algae than plant.
Rotala rotundifolia has been stunted and at a standstill for ages. One stem has unstunted and is growing again, the rest has been thrown away. I havent decided if I want to continue keeping rotalas, even when I can get them to grow I dont really adore the look of the very upright and kinda boring stems. Its fast approaching a point where if it doesnt like the soup im providing, it can get out of the kitchen 

Hottonia palustris I thought was going the way of the rotalas. But the one shoot that I have left has unstunted a bit with the added nitrates and ive placed it front and center in the flow, hoping to boost its recovery. Id like to keep it for its look if I can get it growing.






To make a too long post even longer, I eventually got the nifty new Fluval light I had been waiting for. Its pretty nice, the shimmer was a little bit much for me at first. I said I would eventually make a homemade diffuser for it, but now I dont really notice it any more unless I look for it so I might just leave it the way it is. The sunrise and sunset features are really nice and the fish seem to like it a lot more than the sudden on/off. I can also get the hue just how I want it.


I now have 5 otocinclus cocama in addition to my remaining 2 regular otos. They are a really pretty fish ive had on my wishlist for years. Cost a bit but I found that closing ones eyes when you get to the cash register is a quick and easy way to make the price much more tolerable.





Here they are eating some butternut squash. I swear these fish eat better than me. Sweet potato has been the definite favorite so far. Next up will be aubergine/eggplant or regular green squash. Thanks to this forum for food suggestions, they have been a big hit 





Ive been very very happy with the zebra otos. They are out and about all the time and I can almost always see all 5 of them. The 2 regular otos arent out as much, I was hoping they would come out and school together. I might get more regular otos later or rehome the two loners to a bigger school.

Also have aquired 2 nerites of some kind. I had 3 but one passed away recently after a small period of inactivity. Not sure why. Hopefully nothing big.


Finishing with a bonus picture of Miss Piggy. She was very disappointed my phone wasnt second dinner.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> If you read all of this then I apologise for the incoherent rambling and any grammar/spelling mistakes I may have made, and thank you for reading



Hi @Hufsa 

I wish my Norwegian was as good as your English!

JPC


----------



## Hufsa

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Hufsa
> 
> I wish my Norwegian was as good as your English!
> 
> JPC



Youre very kind 


An unrelated thing I forgot to add to my gargantuan update post, I have been fairly good at keeping up with filter maintenance. Think it has been cleaned 3 or 4 times in these 2 months.

Just general gunk and mulm building up has been in my thoughts as a possible reason for the BBA.
But I would think that the regular filter cleaning would have dealt with that. Who knows.

As far as I have gathered there are some divided opinions on filter maintenance. In the local communities it is often preached to let the filter be untouched until its noticeably clogged and slow. After reading about the critical role of oxygen in the filter, this now seems to me like a big risk to take. I assume they advise to clean seldom because they are afraid people will clean out all their good bacteria. With some guidance and care this shouldnt be a problem though. Just because you empty out some muck doesnt mean you have to squeeze and beat the living crap out of your sponges or pressure wash your bio media.

I havent yet looked into how often people here on Ukaps clean their filters, so ive just been doing it as often as I can be bothered.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Hufsa said:


> With some guidance and care this shouldnt be a problem though. Just because you empty out some muck doesnt mean you have to squeeze and beat the living crap out of your sponges or pressure wash your bio media.


Absolutely 
Also you can afford to lose a few bacteria* as they can reproduce quickly.
But most importantly, in a planted tank the plants do most of the biofiltration so you are not completely dependent on the filter for bio.

* and other micro-organisms, - there are lots of different things in your filter.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Hufsa said:


> With some guidance and care this shouldnt be a problem though. Just because you empty out some muck doesnt mean you have to squeeze and beat the living crap out of your sponges or pressure wash your bio media.


Absolutely 
Also you can afford to lose a few bacteria* as they can reproduce quickly.
But most importantly, in a planted tank the plants do most of the biofiltration so you are not completely dependent on the filter for bio.

* and other micro-organisms, - there are lots of different things in your filter.


----------



## Ray

The new Ottos are adorable! It’s all looking very lovely with the exception of your Black Brush Algae outbreak which is enough to give most planted tank folks nightmares - it certainly gives me the screaming heebie jeebies! I’ve never experienced that in a low tech tank, only in a neglected high tech so I’m not sure what to suggest. Your maintenance sounds quite rigorous too. Is the BBA increasing as though it likes current conditions or did it all come at the same time (always seemed to be almost overnight when I got it) in which case the trigger may have passed!?

Speaking of trigger did the outbreak come before or after you changed your light around? I’m a little confused what you are running right now - temporary LEDs or the final Fluval solution?


----------



## Hufsa

Ray said:


> Is the BBA increasing as though it likes current conditions or did it all come at the same time ...
> 
> Speaking of trigger did the outbreak come before or after you changed your light around? I’m a little confused what you are running right now - temporary LEDs or the final Fluval solution?



The BBA has been slowly increasing. It started on one piece of the driftwood, spreading slowly to other branches as well as the rocks and some of the plants. I have not been removing it, I think part of me wanted to see just how bad it could get  It would probably be much less extensive if I were actively fighting it along the way. But, I wouldnt have removed the root cause either so wouldnt the struggle just continue forever?

It seems to appreciate high flow or the perks that come with high flow. It may also be the light levels in the middle of the tank it likes but I think good flow in the area definitely aids the algae.

I wasnt sure how much BBA I had when I switched to the Fluval light. I havent been very good about writing down things other than the TDS. I think I got the Fluval light up and running on my tank very roughly around april 12. I went through some older photos of the fry and fish and based on what I could see in the background of the photos, the BBA kicked off after I got the Fluval  Very interesting. I didnt realise this until just now.

I started the Fluval on about 1/3 intensity. The corydoras venezuelanus seem to change the extent of their side spot and brightness of color somewhat depending on lighting conditions. I turned the light all the way up at some point to get the brighter colors and small side spot I prefer, and have had it that way since then. This was also probably a mistake, and I think deep down I knew so at the time. But if for nothing else then maybe some interesting stuff would happen that I could learn something from  So I completely ignored the little voice that said maybe this was too much light. Nothing ventured nothing gained, right?

On the pictures I posted you cant really see just how much green thread/string algae this tank generates, since I had just removed tons.
Every 3 days or so I pull out big clumps of it. They grow from the plants and get balled up at the center of the tank. The most suffering plants have the most thread algae growing from them. This makes sense to me.
The thread algae doubles (if not more) its speed of growth when the lighting level is too high for the tank. So that has also seen an increase since I turned the Fluval up.

Based on this im gonna turn the light down to 1/3 again starting today and see how it goes.
That will be a change in two major factors, the apparent lack of nutrients for the plants and the overly bright light. I think this kind of poor setup/balance created a nice niche for the BBA to thrive in.

It will be interesting to see how things develop now 

I plan to remove as much as possible of the BBA by taking the wood and rocks out and treating them with some Excel. Excel is what people are using for spot treatment of BBA and such, right? I just need to buy some first.

It would have been interesting to see if the BBA died out just by changing the conditions, but I worry that once it has this nice foothold it wont die easily even if conditions turn less favorable. That it would only slow or stop its growth but not kill the existing stuff.

I am open to persuasion if this is something you would all like me to try out though.
I could always nuke it later. Hmm, maybe ill give it some more thought.


----------



## Ray

My understanding of BBA is it will remain until you remove it and on hardscape that will need a very stiff brush. If you are getting green thread algae too it really sounds like too much light...

I think if you can cite your exact light spec and height above substrate plus find some PAR values for it running at 33% we (and by “we” I really mean wiser folks on this forum because I’ve zero experience of this) can try and see if you are in an acceptable range for your choice of plants in a low tech tank.

I do think you need to remove it, but my speciality is more green water and BGA - BBA and Cladophora have not yet been my bugbears!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Ray said:


> My understanding of BBA is it will remain until you remove it and on hardscape that will need a very stiff brush.


Eventually it may all detach. We don't know why, but it has an alternation of generations, and that may be the reason.

I've not been into the lab. to work since March, and the fish tanks that are in there have just been topped up with rain-water (I have an "essential maintenance visit" once a week, and they don't have any fish in them). 

Last Friday  I thought I'll give the plants a thin, and squeeze out the pre-filter sponge etc. In this tank I just have a <"powerhead and large sponge filter">.






The filter sponge had a lot of dead detached BBA, but no apparent live tufts. <"This is the third time it has been through this cycle">, and I've no idea what the trigger is for either growth or death.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Ray said:


> I think if you can cite your exact light spec and height above substrate plus find some PAR values for it running at 33% we (and by “we” I really mean wiser folks on this forum because I’ve zero experience of this) can try and see if you are in an acceptable range for your choice of plants in a low tech tank.



So the light is the Fluval 3.0 Plant, size 91-122 cm long.
From the light to the water surface is 6 cm, and from water surface to substrate it is approx 36 cm.
So a total of 42 cm from the light to the substrate.

I found this post with par values for the 122-153 cm long fixture after some googling.
Im unsure how useful it is with the size difference.

I do know that the 91 cm uses 46 W and has 3300 lumens,
while the 122-153 cm uses 59 W and has 4250 lumens.
Maybe a scale can be extrapolated from this?

Quote from post:
Depth.........PAR
3".................545
6".................270
12"...............113
18"...............71


----------



## Hufsa

On an unrelated note;
Ive been inspired to do a little bit with the aquarium again these past days, and now im worried that I have messed around with the filter too much.
Im scared of having a repeat of earlier this year and the whole fiasco around it, including sick fish and tons of water changes.
I hope that im just being hysterical and that nothing bad will happen 

First I just did a mostly normal "cleaning" like three days ago, emptying out the muck/mulm from the Ultramax. I removed two small handfuls of old coarse sponge pieces. They were from the eheim originally, and have just been crowding the bottom two filter baskets on the Ultramax ever since. I removed maybe 1/10 of the total amount of that particular sponge. I plan to remove them all gradually over time.

I also partially removed a small handful of Matrix media, but chickened out with complete removal and put it into the tank since this is my oldest biomedia and I was worried all my bacteria are living there. This media has been mixed with the other varieties of biological media since dec/jan. So that handful is currently just chilling on the sand in the tank.
This handful was maybe 1/25 of the total biological media in the Ultramax.

The day after I decided it was time to remove the old Eheim, which had been running "almost" empty alongside the Ultramax.
So all the surfaces of the pump itself, the hoses and the external filter was removed bacteria wise.
It contained maybe a liter of cheap biological ceramic media that I threw in there for seeding in january for some reason.
I also chickened out with removing this completely, so that is also chilling on the sand now 

Day after that I replaced the intake and outlet of the Ultramax with some custom PVC fittings and cleaned the hoses while I was at it. This meant that the filter was not running for an hour or so. So the surfaces of the hoses and PVC fittings sort of got reset bacteria wise there as well.


My other half is already asking me when I plan to remove the biomedia sitting in the tank.
This is, as many know, partner code for "This looks really ugly and I dont like it."
I dont dare start removing it until at least 2-3 days from now, and plan to do it gradually just to be safe.


Could anyone chime in on wether im being absolutely silly or not with this total amount of changes?
Couldnt you technically remove like 1/3 of your total media, if the bacteria can double themselves in 24 hours?
I would really appreciate some input on this, maybe I can sleep a bit easier tonight


----------



## Ray

Hufsa said:


> So the light is the Fluval 3.0 Plant, size 91-122 cm long.
> From the light to the water surface is 6 cm, and from water surface to substrate it is approx 36 cm.
> So a total of 42 cm from the light to the substrate.
> I do know that the 91 cm uses 46 W and has 3300 lumens,
> while the 122-153 cm uses 59 W and has 4250 lumens.
> Maybe a scale can be extrapolated from this?
> 
> Quote from post:
> Depth.........PAR
> 3".................545
> 6".................270
> 12"...............113
> 18"...............71



Given the lights seem to use roughly 15W per 30cm of light I think the PAR at a given point should be very similar?  If so:

30cm = 113 PAR, 
45cm = 71 PAR

So we can extrapolate that you are roughly 80 PAR at the substrate running on full power.  I thought 50 PAR or less was low and 100 or more was high.  On that basis since no CO2 you should probably be running your light at 50% (you only have one, right?).  What power are you running it on?

I looked for a thread on correct PAR values for plants but couldn’t find it.  Could someone help?

PS - Re your other post I think if you only swap out 10 or 20% of the media in a mature filter at a time it should take it in it’s stride.  The main risk of removing the Eheim is the effect on flow.


----------



## Hufsa

Ray said:


> What power are you running it on?
> 
> ...
> 
> The main risk of removing the Eheim is the effect on flow.



Im running the light at 30% now, but it was on 100% up until just recently.


The flow of the Eheim was fairly low, so it didnt contribute much to the total flow of the tank.

The low flow was kinda the main reason for replacing it with another filter. I love the Eheim otherwise, great filters that can withstand nuclear war.
It has been lovingly cleaned, seals lubricated, and put away as a backup should I ever need it.


----------



## Ray

Hufsa said:


> Im running the light at 30% now, but it was on 100% up until just recently.



Sounds about right - around 25 PAR on the substrate but increasing higher up. Come back and let us know how it goes .


----------



## Hufsa

I treated some of the BBA with "HappyCarbo" on the 19th. 
Shop didnt have Excel / EasyCarbo but its all the same stuff anyway.

I took all the stones and a big branch out, treated it with undiluted glut, let it sit for an hour or so and then rinsed the hardscape thoroughly two times in the tap.
I dont really want Glutaraldehyde in my tank since im not convinced of its safety.
I know people use it and im not looking to start a fight so this is my personal choice 

Took not even a day for the BBA to start turning grey and sad looking and I discovered a sprinkling of staghorn in there as well that was hidden in the luscious fur of BBA. Reason it was now easy to see is because it turned quite bright red. Cool stuff 

Suddenly the algae became very palatable to the otos who have been dutifully munching on it since then. There is almost nothing left now.

The treatment worked just like I have read so pretty happy about that.

The main piece of wood was treated some days later. I thought it would be neat to have untreated and treated right next to each other for comparison. Oh and I manually scrubbed all the stones except one the day after treatment, because I was impatient and wanted to put them back where they were supposed to go instead of having them all spaced out so the dead algae could be eaten.

Before:




Treatment:




Eaten a lot:




More:
(Branches coming from left side newly treated)




Pretty good right? 
I might have to do a second treatment later to get it entirely gone. The otos, shrimp and snails have a lot of dead algae to eat at the moment with the main wood also having been treated, so it might just be that they need some more time to eat it all.

Ill snap more pics later today when the lights come on, the last photo was taken on saturday.

Ive also been manually removing plant leaves with BBA on them, but spacing the pruning out over the week since I struggle with painful arms and back.


----------



## Hufsa

Off the topic of BBA, results of less light and more ferts are good so far. 
Rotala stem is growing, Hottonia stem is unstunting, and after astute observation from my other half today, I realise the green thread algae has slowed down greatly.

I had fertilizer targets set for my earlier period but didnt actually follow it, so I dont know if it was sufficient or if it would have been too little.

Right now im aiming for 20 ppm NO3, 2 ppm PO4, 20 ppm K, 0.15 ppm Fe DTPA, 0.05 CSM+B.
So a doubling of macros but micros remain the same.
I can try to decrease this amount slowly later once the plants are all growing well to see what is really needed.

This time the ferts are actually getting put in the tank and on regular days, which undoubtedly increases their effectiveness as opposed to staying in the bottles.

Yesterday I bought some more plants, just for fun really.

The Pogostemon helferi was looking quite sorry for itself after the period of high light and low ferts and while I think it could have recovered, I just bought a new pot and started over with a stronger and healthier plant.

I bought Nesaea(/Ammania/whatever) crassicaulis on a whim, just to see if that genus will grow in my tank. Maybe it will, maybe it wont, we shall find out 

I was planning to get a fresh pot of Rotala rotundifolia. I have one stem in my tank but threw away the other stems as they were so stunted and sorry looking. I had half a mind to swear off the cursed Rotalas entirely, but I remembered that I wanted a yellowish plant behind the super red. Rest are all various shades of green, and I think it will look nicer to have a yellowish one next to the red so its not all, green green green BAM! red plant.

...Unfortunately, the shop didnt have any rotundifolia. They had H'ra though, in vitro none the less.
Since I was feeling so wild and reckless I bought a cup. This is a plant I wanted to try AFTER I could get rotundifolia growing well, but here we are. So it will be a baptism by fire 

In vitro plants are sometimes so ridiculously small. It was hopeless to plant individual stems so I just seperated them into smaller clumps and planted them spaced out into the sand. It got planted in the brightest most high current area of the tank so no one shall say that I didnt do everything it takes to give it the best conditions available in my low tech purgatory.

While I was out, I also picked up the remaining two zebra otos in the store, bringing my total to 7 (+2 racist normal otos).

And more snails 





I believe the yellow and black spiky ones may be Clithon corona.
They were sold under the label "Nerite Mix" with a bunch of other species of nerite ish looking snails of various colors. The reddish ones are Tiger nerites I believe. I have two of these already so now there are 5 tigers and 5 of the yellow and black ones.

I hope they all make it. I mentioned before I lost a tiger nerite but dont know why.
They dont seem to live long in the stores here, but I dont know what it is that kills them. Not old age for sure. Maybe lack of food in the store tanks? But I have a lot of "food" (cough algae cough) so then it shouldnt have died in my tank. Hmm.


----------



## Hufsa

Oh crap!

I just tested my tank water for nitrates and got a reading for somewhere between 45-50 ppm 
Thats way too much for my comfort 
I guess throwing in copious amounts of fertilizer while still doing small water changes has caught up with me  
With this tank I have never been able to get any sort of high reading for nitrates so I guess somehow in my foolishness I thought I was immune 
I dont know what I was thinking??

Im going to be doing some moderate water changes every day from today until its a bit more at a reasonable level.
And not add so much. Why did I not realise it would build up high when I dont do 50% changes every week any more? 

New weekly ferts 10 ppm NO3, 1 ppm PO4, 10 ppm K ?
Or is that still too high?
Now im second guessing everything.

How can I go from thinking I have a solid well thought out fertilizing plan to realising a big flaw in the plan and feeling immensely stupid all in the span of 0.1 seconds?

Sometimes my plans give me whiplash. I can only imagine what it looks like for anyone watching the disaster from afar.

Signed, Captain Dum-Dum McBungeepants


----------



## Ray

I would not panic about nitrates that you dosed yourself, back in the mists of time @ceg4048 treble dosed EI for years with no ill effects:

So if your fish and snails seem happy, I would just relax and ease off the dosing until the odd water change brings it down.  At least you now know ferts are not a limiting factor and we'd expect to see some of your plants taking off now.


----------



## Hufsa

Thats a pretty good way to look at it Ray, thanks for that 
Im definitely the one that added the nitrates.
Aside from feeling a bit stupid no harm has really been done.

I put a few buckets of water out for de-gassing until tomorrow, with the state of my arms today I definitely shouldnt be doing anything let alone water changes  Resting is so boring!


----------



## Witcher

Hey @Hufsa

I'd suggest to have look at @Zeus. "Olympus is calling" thread, especially post 287:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/olympus-is-calling.43046/page-15#post-581000

Does it looks familiar? From distance (and if light is not confusing me) you may have long term Fe deficiency on P. Helferi (this is generally Fe hungry plant). 

Fe is needed for chlorophyll production, very broadly speaking it's needed for assimilation of Nitrogen into certain aminoacids and further into chlorophyll molecules - this may be the case of your Nitrogen buildup.


----------



## Hufsa

Witcher said:


> ... Does it looks familiar? From distance (and if light is not confusing me) you may have long term Fe deficiency on P. Helferi



Yeah, Ive gotten familiar with the look of iron deficiency especially in the helferi.
That one and Blyxa is the first to show it in my tank.

For a period until recently I hardly dosed anything macros or micros and noticed beginning iron deficiency in the plant as well as shedding leaves and algae from assumed lack of nitrogen.
Im not sure which pictures youre looking at but the pics with BBA in the shot show old iron deficient leaves grown before my routine change. I just removed the oldest decaying leaves and replanted. But the plant was so weak it wasnt really putting out new leaves and was starting to melt. So now ive started over with a new pot 
Feels like cheating 

When I actually dose Fe like I should it looks pretty nice, there should be a pic somewhere earlier in the journal


----------



## jaypeecee

Ray said:


> I looked for a thread on correct PAR values for plants but couldn’t find it. Could someone help?



Hi @Ray 

You could take a look at the following list, which _Seneye_ published in association with _Arcadia_...

https://answers.seneye.com/index.ph...t_is_PAR_&_PUR_?/fresh_water_plant_PAR_levels

I am unable to comment on the accuracy of the figures. Better than nothing, though. I hope!

JPC


----------



## Hufsa

I promised some follow up pics after lights come on so here they are 

I snapped a picture of some BBA on the main root having turned all grey looking.
When I looked at the same spot later a bunch of BBA had disappeared 

Before and after:







Someone's an effective eater  Only four hours or so had passed.
There was a very full looking oto chilling just outside the picture.

Please disregard the new bunch of Pogostemon helferi blocking the view.
The new plants kinda just got plopped down in a functional but not very aesthetic way.

I also got a follow up pic of the big branch that was treated with glut first.



Still some fuzz but not too bad in relation to how it was:





Some other gratuitous shots:

Teeny tiny baby H'ra




Emersed form Nesaea




Hottonia and Rotala rotundifolia growth.
The tops look a little bit small and strange if I look very close but im making a -very- conscious effort to not overthink this and just wait and see.








Pretty pretty Ludwigia palustris


----------



## Hufsa

Been meaning to update this for a while, I dont know why but it tends to end up as these massive updates covering several topics instead of a steady stream of posts. Im not even sure where to start. I guess I'll start with what I left off with last time.

I have not killed the Rotala H'ra or the Nesaea/Ammannia crassicaulis (yet ).
I find the conversion from emersed to submerged growth patterns fascinating. The rotala was confused at first, growing round emersed-looking leaves despite coming from an in-vitro cup. The leaves have been slowly getting more and more slender as it grows. The crassicaulis is turning a nice yellowish hue that I really like.







The lone Rotala rotundifolia stem from last post did indeed stunt. I dont wanna say I knew it, but I knew it!  Im not sure why, did it get too close to the light and choked itself out with the light intensity and only ~el natural~ levels of CO2? My Heteranthera zosterifolia is perfectly happy growing right up to the surface. Why are Rotalas such little ******s 

The Hottonia did not stunt however so at least I have that going for me.

I've snapped some more gratuitous pics of my fish and shrimp. The fish are too cute not to share and the shrimp are just beautiful.
Please disregard the shoddy camera(phone)-work and the scratches and watermarks on the glass.
I am but a simple lazy peasant, not a world class photographer slash aquascaper 



 

 


The cory on the left in the rightmost picture is one of my home made ones 



 

 






A very common sight is this multi-cat-pile-up 
This group of zebra ottos is just so sociable and outgoing 

I also got even more snails, bringing us up to a total of 21 nerites & clithon snails.
Some of them had some erosion(?) holes in their shells, I hope they can recover from this, and that the holes will not continue into the snail causing its demise. I need to read up more on this topic.


----------



## Hufsa

I want to write a quick post about my lighting before I forget it, its been running on 25% intensity and 8 hours since last time I wrote about it. I think last week I turned it down to 20%, I dont remember why but I recall thinking it was the right thing to do at the time 
Today im also reducing it to 6 hours as im still getting green thread algae.  Less green thread algae than what I had when I was foolishly running the lights at 100%, but still too much algae 

For a long time ive been observing the plants being "woken up" by the ambient light in the room and it has left me considering if the ambient light is sabotaging my efforts to slow my plants need for CO2.
The ambient light hitting the tank is increasing in intensity as summer progresses. The window is northeast facing. My timer has been set to 13:00 to 21:00, now 14:00 to 20:00, since I like to view my tank in the evening. But my plants open their tops much earlier in the morning when the ambient light gets to a certain intensity, even if the curtains are closed. They also close their tops before my aquarium lights go off.
Could this mean that they have already had a long photoperiod and are "done" before my artificial photoperiod is even over?

Im tempted to cover my tank with something that blocks the light and keep it on in the hours my lights are off. I would not be happy with this as a permanent solution as I am very lazy, but it would be interesting as an experiment. This would also interfere with viewing the fish while the lights are off 

If this helps I guess I will have to try to sell in some blackout curtains and them having to be closed until 14 o clock to my partner. That will be interesting..


----------



## Ray

Hufsa said:


> For a long time ive been observing the plants being "woken up" by the ambient light in the room and it has left me considering if the ambient light is sabotaging my efforts to slow my plants need for CO2.



Curiously @JoshP12 just recently posted about this too  https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/curbing-diurnal-behavior.61250/ but I do not know the answer.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> Some of them had some erosion(?) holes in their shells, I hope they can recover from this, and that the holes will not continue into the snail causing its demise


I think that is mechanical damage where the "horns" have been knocked off. I'm not hopeful for their long term survival.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Thanks for the link Ray, this is really interesting stuff. Based on what Ive read in that thread and links I will move my photoperiod to 12:00 - 18:00 and see how I get on.

I think maybe then, that my ambient light levels are a seperate "issue" from the opening and closing of my plants. Because they do turn their tops towards the window in the first part of the day, and then straighten up towards the light when it comes on. I was thinking that means that they are growing with the ambient light levels, but maybe they are able to turn without growing? 

Shame to hear youre not hopeful about the two snails Darrel. The first one does look like the holes are placed along a line where the spikes might have been, while the other looks more like there was a hole in the very end of the shell and then it has eroded into a banana shape.. Weird. I did buy a lot of them with the thought that some might not make it. They didnt cost a lot so its not a huge loss, but of course I want the little critters to do well, and preferably not die hidden somewhere and foul up my tank with dead snail stank. Fortunately, the rest of them look much better than these two.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Hufsa said:


> but maybe they are able to turn without growing?


I don't think so. The usual turning is by growing more on the dark side (or on the light side of roots). It's called phototropism if you want  to look into it.


----------



## Hufsa

Ah thanks, thats what I thought. That means that the ambient light is indeed influencing my plants photoperiod. Been turning down intensity and now light hours and they just get sneaky and get extra light from mother nature instead 
Here I am, just doing what im told and trying to get the growth slowed down to match my CO2 levels, just to help their sorry plant asses grow better, meanwhile people who dont even know what plants they have are growing unstunting rotalas by the bucketful  /end rant


Continuing my update post;

Rotala H'ra and Nesaea update from today


 


Ive moved the Nesaea behind the Super Red and gave the latter a trim and a replant. Tops were nice but lower leaves were bad looking and shedding all over the tank.

Ammannia senegalensis, newcomer that I dont really have room for but never seen this in shops here before and wanna see how it does in my conditions. So far not dead 







Whats left of my poor blyxa. It kept shedding mass amounts of leaves and I eventually pulled it out to see what was going on. I found intact and white roots, a melting middle part and shoots that looked salvageable. Unknown if this melt was just a process that was still going on from when I neglected things in spring, or if a new trigger caused the melt. Replanted and hope it recovers. This plant is not so easy to buy in stores, so ill be real upset if it dies. I dont think inert sand is doing it any favors either.




Still getting some BBA on old leaves, but not seeing anything on the hardscape so far.




Sessiliflora growing ok, has been getting hacked back a lot. The lower leaves have turned slightly brown with a coating of something, dont know exactly what.


I bought a few new pieces of redmoor wood last week, finally something that could go on the right side of the tank for the Windeløv fern to sit on. I also found a piece that I think can be used to accent the left hand root, so its not all buried under the Bolbitis. Obviously it all sticks out like a sore thumb right now cause of the fresh color, but they will turn the same shade of brown eventually.



The right hand side is made of two pieces. Im not entirely convinced they harmonise well together, and with the left, I think maybe I need to rotate one of the pieces, like the pink arrows show. Please ignore the tangle under the red X, it was below the big root on the left hand side and I just threw them over there for now.

Oh and theres a big pile of seachem matrix on the sand because im doing stupid things with my filter media  I want to reduce the total amount of filter media in my filter to make sure flow through and oxygenation is maximised. Obviously, I cant do all of these filter shenanigans in one go, which is a problem because thats how I like to do things, way too much at once  I think I disturbed too much of the media this time and am now paying for it in daily waterchanges 

The new wood is making all kinds of fungal growth, which I expected. I know ottos love this coating and they have been gobbling it up almost as fast as its appearing.
What I didnt expect however,  was that they also produced a pretty wicked surface film. It looked like the fallout of a big environmental disaster, with huge flakes of organic matter crashing together in the current like ice floes in the antarctic. It was so thick, air bubbles were getting trapped underneath.

Luckily for me, I also picked up an Eheim Skim that day, so that has been doing a pretty good job at keeping it to a minimum. Ill make a separate post about my Skim modifications later.

There seems to be a higher level of crust in general in my tank thanks to this, so now my thread algae is adorned with a nice slimy coat. Isnt nature beautiful.




For now ill just wait out the fresh wood and the other changes, and see how it goes when it has found equilibrium again.


----------



## sparkyweasel

Hufsa said:


> I dont think inert sand is doing it any favors either.


Root tabs might help.


----------



## rebel

dw1305 said:


> "horns" have been knocked off. I'm not hopeful for their long term survival.


I don't know whether you guys in the UK have seen the office US version but Kevin glues back a crushed turtle shell with various office supplies..... I had a chuckle when I remembered that.



Could you possibly use egg shell or similar and patch it up with super glue?


----------



## Hufsa

rebel said:


> Could you possibly use egg shell or similar and patch it up with super glue?



Had a good laugh from that clip 

I know there are tutorials out there to patch up snail shells, especially apple snails as they are big and often considered pets. Ive considered trying it but not sure if the endeavor might be too much for the little snails, and what materials I should use. I know some use nail polish over a bit of plastic, but I dont have any nail polish around, and id not want to get the wrong kind that will dissolve in my tank


----------



## Hufsa

Tank got a large trim and cleaning today. Ill snap fresh pictures tomorrow, the lights are off now 

I have had a fair bit of Sera Siporax biomedia lying at the feet of the plants up against the back wall, to provide shelter for newborn fry and shrimp. Last time I disturbed the piles there wasnt much mulm and crud there, only a few bits of bark from the wood and other sorts of dark things that no one likes to eat or break down. But when I disturbed the piles again today there was a -lot- of mulm and brown gunk and crud that didnt look very good. Since im trying to get the upper hand on algae, i decided to take the siporax out for now, and did a good vaccuum of the sand to get all the crap out. This way the corys can snuffle the sand there and help waft things up so it gets drawn towards the filter where I can remove it regularly.

The big thicket of Heteranthera zosterifolia was starving its lower parts for light and it was shedding leaves all over the tank. I had let the plant get too scraggly really.  Need to throw away the bottoms and replant the tops more regularly. It wasnt too long ago I snipped the growing tops, so I didnt have a lot of healthy length to replant, hence it ended up a bit short. But hopefully it grows back quickly.

Almost the same for Limnophila sessiliflora, except here the lower leaves were doing better. I switched the placement of these two plants around. Im trying to not have very similar leaf shapes next to each other, as I think the contrast looks nice. H. z. was looking a bit too similar to the Hygrophila difformis in the back left corner.

Hygrophila costata ('angustifolia') in the back right corner also got topped and replanted. I was fishing out siporax from between the stems and realised the lower parts were pretty bare. At least im the one who has done it 
Ive been pinching off the dying or algae infested leaves, instead of letting it shed all over the tank like the H. z. 
To be fair to myself its a lot easier to isolate and pinch off a leaf from this big plant relative to the tiny fine leaved ones 


Because these three plants were the biggest in the tank, a fair bit of plant matter was removed.
I will monitor the water quality carefully for a while. I feel bad about removing so much, but I try to tell myself that it would be better to have smaller healthy plants regrowing than a bunch of decaying leaves and unhappy stems rotting.
Ive been changing 50% of the water every day as a result of my earlier filter shenanigans, so that part is already sorted. And since I kicked up so much crud I changed about 75-80% today.

Ive been kinda stubborn about filling water right from the tap until now, but this week I finally came around and bought a used 200 liter barrel to age my water in. The plastic is food grade, and it has not had "chemicals" in it according to the seller. It has however, had lemon juice / lemon extract in it 
Its been given a good scrub without soap and refilled and emptied a bunch of times, but I think the aroma of the lemon juice has gotten into the plastic because it constantly smells faintly of lemon in there 
The scent is a little bit alarming, but it was "all natural" lemon extract, so the worst that should happen if there were remnants in the barrel, would be that the water got a bit acidic. Or so I hope.
Ive tested the TDS and the PH and everything is as you would expect.
The water itself doesnt smell, just the barrel 

So now I can change as much water as quickly as I like without worrying about TDS, PH, GH changes etc.
Before now I have been dosing Prime to the total volume of my tank, and letting it circulate for a little bit before refilling from the tap. But always in the back of my head is the worry that the chlorine has not found the Prime before it finds the gills of the fish. Not a nice thought. But now its all pre-mixed and even aerated.

We have been assuming my tap has a lot of CO2, based on the many bubbles that form in the tank when ive been changing water. But is it possible that its a different gas? Or maybe a different cause?
I did some testing last week and the PH of my fresh tap water is 7,3. I filled a bucket and let it just stand over night, tapped the bucket to get the bubbles to release from the bucket wall and tested once it settled. It came out to PH 7,1. So the PH went down after degassing, not up as I would have thought if the tap had a lot of CO2 mixed in..? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

I experimented last week with turning my filter's spray bar spraying into the back wall during water changes from the tap, and saw a significant decrease in bubbles. So might all the bubbles that got stuck on fish, shrimp and plants have been just tiny air bubbles made from the agitation from the spray bar?
Maybe its been an unintentional red herring all along.


Sorry for the long post with no pictures, I promise to make it up to you tomorrow


----------



## rebel

Hufsa said:


> We have been assuming my tap has a lot of CO2, based on the many bubbles that form in the tank when ive been changing water. But is it possible that its a different gas? Or maybe a different cause?


Dude that's a long thread in itself.  Look up pearling.


----------



## LondonDragon

rebel said:


> Dude that's a long thread in itself.  Look up pearling.



Have a look here where I was corrected in my "false pearling" theory! 
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/why-have-my-plants-stopped-pearling.11124/


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> We have been assuming my tap has a lot of CO2, based on the many bubbles that form in the tank when ive been changing water. But is it possible that its a different gas? Or maybe a different cause?


As the water warms up (and possibly depressurizes) it can hold less dissolved gas and the excess comes out as gas bubbles. I assume the bubbles are in a similar proportion to the atmosphere, so 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen and traces of argon (Ar), CO2 etc.

It is exactly the same as when you boil a kettle, by the time the water gets to boiling the water is totally degassed.





Hufsa said:


> I did some testing last week and the PH of my fresh tap water is 7,3. I filled a bucket and let it just stand over night, tapped the bucket to get the bubbles to release from the bucket wall and tested once it settled. It came out to PH 7,1. So the PH went down after degassing, not up as I would have thought if the tap had a lot of CO2 mixed in..? Or am I misunderstanding something here?


You are very close to pH7, so if it is water with low conductivity? It may not actually have changed at all and was already somewhere near equilibrium with atmospheric gases. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

rebel said:


> Dude that's a long thread in itself.  Look up pearling.



I somewhat doubt its pearling unless I have rare photosynthesizing otos and shrimp 

But ill check out the thread LondonDragon linked regardless 



dw1305 said:


> ...if it is water with low conductivity?



I think so, the TDS of my tap comes out around 60. As far as I understand TDS meters dont actually measure TDS but conductivity, and then apply a multiplier to get a sort of equivalent "fake" TDS ?

According to some random calculator I googled, 60 ppm TDS is "93.8 microS/cm"


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> As far as I understand TDS meters dont actually measure TDS but conductivity, and then apply a multiplier to get a sort of equivalent "fake" TDS ? According to some random calculator I googled, 60 ppm TDS is "93.8 microS/cm"


Yes, <"that is right"> 100 microS ~ 64ppm TDS . The assumption made is that all the TDS  are comprised of ions.  That figure is the approximation where the ions are likely to mainly be derived from calcium carbonate, if  you have water you suspect to be brackish (Na+ and Cl- ions) you use 0.5 as your conversion factor.

Because you have low conductivity water it is quite likely that the pH 7.1 and pH 7.3 are the same reading. 

A pH meter is a <"modified conductivity meter">, and this means that it struggles with low ionic strength solutions.  The "problem" with pH is a log^10 scale and it covers many orders of magnitude. Before you can interpret what a pH value actually means you need some measure of, ideally, carbonate hardness, although in most cases, in freshwater, you can use conductivity as a proxy. 



 

You can see what this means in practice when you have a <"strong base strong acid titration"> (NaOH and HCl ) curve.





cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> Before you can interpret what a pH value actually means you need some measure of, ideally, carbonate hardness...



My water has approx 3 degrees KH, is that what you mean? Or do you mean measure as in; we need a certain amount of it for it to be useful for ...something? 

My brain melted a bit looking at the NaOH graph. Is it saying that NaOH has a lot of effect around the mid range of the PH scale?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> My water has approx 3 degrees KH, is that what you mean? Or do you mean measure as in; we need a certain amount of it for it to be useful for ...something?


You need to know what the alkalinity (usually used interchangeably with "carbonate hardness" dKH) before you can interpret what the pH value <"*actually means">* for the fish and plants. I have about 3 - 4 dkH and 100 microS. conductivity in my tanks.

You can use conductivity as a proxy for dKH,  even though they aren't directly related. The reasoning is that you have very few ions of any description, and even though those you do have are likely to be Ca++ and HCO3-,  you will have low dKH, because you don't have many ions of any description.





Hufsa said:


> My brain melted a bit looking at the NaOH graph. Is it saying that NaOH has a lot of effect around the mid range of the PH scale?


Yes I am, it is the shape of the curve that is important. I started with the table showing the fourteen orders of magnitude (1 - 10^-14) for the H+ ion, but then I thought that a "titration and pH change" picture would be easier to interpret. 

The difficulty with pH is that it is both a log^10 scale and a ratio. 

When you start with the hydrochloric acid (HCl or H+ and Cl-) all the ion activity is H+ ions, acids are defined as "H+ ion (proton) donors" and you have a lot of H+ ions and a very low pH (pH 1). The sodium hydroxide (NaOH or Na+ and OH-) you are adding has all the ion activity as OH- ions and it's an alkali (base), and bases are defined as "H+ ion acceptors" and it has a very high (pH 13) .  

When you have equal activity of H+ and OH- ions you are at pH 7,  that is you have 10^-7 H+ ions and 10^-7 OH- ions.  

When you start the titration you are adding OH- ions, but the pH only changes very slowly because you have a lot of H+ ions to accept. As you approach parity between proton donors and acceptors the pH changes really rapidly until you have an excess of OH- ions and then it you are back to slow change. 

If you have soft water you will never have stable pH, because any small addition of acids or bases will change the pH. If you have heavily carbonate buffered water small additions of acids won't effect the pH anything like as much because you have an excess of H+ ion acceptors and a "buffer" of CaCO3. 

We know that it changes in pH, when <"they don't reflect large changes in water chemistry">, don't effect fish, because when people add CO2 they perform an acid base titration which <"they measure using a drop checker">. At the end of the CO2 period you have a rapid rise in pH as the CO2 level falls back to the atmospheric equilibrium point.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nick72

To add to that Darrel, I dry dose Gypsom (CaS04.2H2O) normally 3 teaspoons to my 190 litre tank after water changes.

The first time I saw the PH drop from 7.2 to 6.4 in 10 seconds I was somewhat concerned.

The fish don't seem to even notice.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Nick72 said:


> The first time I saw the PH drop from 7.2 to 6.4 in 10 seconds I was somewhat concerned. The fish don't seem to even notice.


I'm not sure quite what has happened there, gypsum should be a neutral salt "_......CaSO4·2H2O = Ca2+ + SO42- + 2H2O. It adds calcium ions (Ca++) and sulphate ions (SO4--), but does not add , or take away, hydrogen ions (H+)....._". 

I've never tried it in the aquarium (I have hard tap water and access to other soluble calcium compounds), but somebody else will have done.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Nick72

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I'm not sure quite what has happened there, gypsum should be a neutral salt "_......CaSO4·2H2O = Ca2+ + SO42- + 2H2O. It adds calcium ions (Ca++) and sulphate ions (SO4--), but does not add , or take away, hydrogen ions (H+)....._".
> 
> I've never tried it in the aquarium (I have hard tap water and access to other soluble calcium compounds), but somebody else will have done.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Yes I was suprised the first time, and don't have a strong enough understanding of chemistry to question it.

I put the Gypsom in a 400ml beaker of tank water before putting it in the tank.

It goes goes cloudy almost like baby formula.

I assumed it was reacting with the carbonic acid in my tank water and giving off CO2 - but couldn't say why.

I get the PH drop every time and it takes several hours to recover, but as my CO2 injection does the same thing every day, and the fish don't miss a beat, I don't worry about it.

At one point I was also adding CaC03 in this method, which does the exact same thing - except  it clouds the tank for several hours, where the Gypsom only clouds the tank for 30 mins.

Adding Gypsom for Ca (dGH)
Was adding CaC03 for carbonate (dKH), but have gone back to crushed coral.


----------



## Hufsa

I promised pictures yesterday so I guess I better deliver  
They didnt turn out the best but I was feeling achy from the massive replant yesterday and couldnt be a**** to retry 

This morning my tank looked super clear and fresh. I didnt realise it hadnt looked that way until I saw it today. Hard to describe the change. 
Of course I immediately ruined it by scraping off some stray tufts of BBA from the glass that I had overlooked from the time of the BB-A-pocalypse  Of course also before the pictures were taken 
Well, this journal has never been about the glossy look but more about all the warts and stuff so I think it fits the theme just fine.
It was pretty funny to see the BBA tufts floating around in the current for a while. Like little toupees just waiting for a tiny bare head to land on 


As you can see the tank looks pretty bare now  But I hope things grow back quickly.

Most of the little bits in the water are bubbles from the skimmer. Theres a slight surface film again which means I need to clean the skimmer sponge. It clogs up super fast, I think thanks to the fresh redmoor wood.
At least im getting my moneys worth! Skimmer has a full time job  

The strange white thing floating behind the spray bar is a sepia shell waiting to be waterlogged, for the benefit of shrimp and snails. Ill tuck it behind the inlet once it sinks.






You can maybe see that I rotated one of the right hand pieces of redmoor a bit. This was pretty much as far as it would go. Im not so sure about keeping it actually, maybe the chunky piece can go on its own. I want the left side wood to be more dominant than the right side. I might be able to find a different complimentary piece if I look through "my stash".




Rotala still growing. This is the Rotala genus' last chance in my tank for a good while, so it better keep going.




Anubias nana petite recovering (slowly as they do) from the big BBA trim. I pulled off all the leaves that were fuzzy and it didnt leave much. I think this spot might be too bright long term, will try to move them into some shadier spots.




Its started  Tiny nerite eggs. I knew this day was coming, but I was hoping it wouldnt be this soon 
I found a picture that supposedly shows how to sex nerite snails. So I guess some snail sexual harassment and a lot of fiddling with a magnifying glass is coming up  I was thinking i could rehome the female snails.




Bush of Super Red doing some weird stuff with its tops after being replanted. The top in the upper left even has green and red change in the same leaf. A few of the tops are all green now. I dont know, it will sort itself out im sure. You do you little plant.




Ammania senegalensis was moved behind the sorry tufts of Blyxa. Not seeing any colors on the Ammannia, if its gonna stay green then I will sell it, since I already have a lot of green plants.




What remains of the Heteranthera zosterifolia. Tiny tops. Looking forward to it covering the back wall again. Just need to be more diligent with trimming this time.




Nesaea crassicaulis, looking nice, still transforming to submerged form. Was not touched so now its looming above all the other plants.




Tops of Hygrophila costata looking like some kind of foreground plant that got lost 


Today I didnt have a reading for nitrite for the first time in a while, so that was very nice. Maybe it helped a lot to get all the crud and decaying plants out.
Skipped todays daily water change but will check again tomorrow of course.
Just so no one thinks I dont care about my fish, I have been doing daily 50% water changes and also treating with Prime which claims to bind to nitrites etc. 
So doing everything I can until the system is back in balance


----------



## Ray

Looking good . So is the Bolbitis growing OK without CO2? I thought I heard it was a CO2 junkie (so is Blaxia Japonica, but you mentioned that is struggling)...


----------



## Hufsa

Bolbitis grows just fine without CO2. Its a big 'un, and I heard it gets even bigger with CO2. Right now its been trimmed down and pruned to about half its size because it was getting a bit ridiculous. 
Been growing Blyxa okay too in periods, havent achieved the size ive seen in some pictures but it has done okay. If you look through the journal im sure you can find some pictures of it from when it was doing better. Including one where its displaying very clear iron deficiency


----------



## Hufsa

Argh! Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me 

So I mentioned ive been shuffling some filter media around and removing some here and there.

You may also remember my infuriating stint with daily water changes earlier this year, a whole two months of it. A fish got a fin infection and my test kit showed a reading for nitrite. Okay, I come from the fishkeeping side of the aquarium hobby where test kit results are law and you obey.
I was trying to be more sceptical and cross reference my results so at the beginning of the period I checked the tap water as well and got a negative result there.
So I tested and changed water, and tested and changed water, and so on.
Apparently im not particularly bright, because it took me two whole months to start suspecting foul play.
When I tested the tap water again I got a positive reading. This was very confusing to me and hard to process, so I kinda just went "Thats weird, maybe the test was out of date" and moved on without thinking too much about it, because it made my brain hurt.

Almost everyone on here was quite adamant about test kits being unreliable, especially NO3 because of reasons. Alright I thought, thats their opinion but im not gonna throw out my tests just like that.
How else would you know how things are doing?

Well, about a week and a half ago, I saw a cory with slightly shorter mustaches than the others. Had recently disturbed the filter media a bit, and what do you know, when I tested the water I got a nitrite reading. This was a new test kit mind you.
Huh, I thought, I didnt know filter bacteria were such little delicate flowers. "Well, here I go changing water again I guess" 

JBL is the brand thats considered the best one commonly available here. I find their nitrite test to be very hard to read. The low readings never seem to be as bright as the color circles you are supposed to compare it to. I can only assume that youre supposed to go by hue and not intensity, as it is with all other tests I have come across. So despite results being a very light yellow, I have taken the slightly beige-ish hue to mean a nitrite reading, since its supposed to be an almost greenish light yellow for 0.

This time I also tested the tap water right away, and tap water with Prime in it. I also tried diluting the water to be tested with 50% demineralised water.

Well, tap water tested negative. Tap water with Prime tested negative. 50/50 aquarium water and demineralised water tested not quite what I would call half of 0.05, but close, maybe. I let my aquarium water sample sit over night before testing again in case the Prime was interfering somehow and giving a false positive. Still tested positive. I was scratching my head trying to make sense of it, but changed water none the less to err on the side of caution.

Anyway, just like last time I have been changing water and changing water. Until today, where I tested tap water again. Positive. Water change barrel with only GH powder, postitive. Water change barrel with both GH and Prime, positive.

I dont know its appropriate to swear on this forum, so I will try not to. But this might give a hint on how im feeling about the whole situation.

Does anyone know why this is happening?
Please dont just say "test kits are unreliable" and leave it at that. That might indeed be true but I need to know how and why. I would love to have a more in depth discussion about this.

This is a sort of fundamental pillar that is now crumbling and I need to ease into it a little bit so please be kind, this is a bit difficult. In fact I found this whole post very hard to write, so I hope it makes sense to read.

If I cant use nitrite test kits to check if there is a water quality issue, how should I check it?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> Bolbitis grows just fine without CO2.


Same for me. It grows really <"well low-tech, low nutrients">. I actually find it does a lot better than Java Fern for me, which I think appreciates a bit more hardness and a few more nutrients. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Hufsa said:


> Almost everyone on here was quite adamant about test kits being unreliable, especially NO3 because of reasons. Alright I thought, thats their opinion but im not gonna throw out my tests just like that. How else would you know how things are doing?


You could invest in a <"nitrite ion (NO2-) selective electrode">. That is quite an expensive option, but would be likely to be fairly accurate. 

If time and money are no object you definitely can test for all the parameters  you want. Time and money are the only provisos.

As a general rule it is easier to use colorimetric tests for nitrite (NO2-), rather than nitrate (NO3-), because there are some coloured insoluble nitrite compounds, which mean that you have one less step in the sequence (you don't need <"cadmium reduction", your nitrite is already reduced">.)

I approach this in a different manner, using methods <"based on probability">, I understand that it doesn't give you an _empirical  _value, but it is less reliant in any methodology that has a single point of failure. 

If you start from the premise that :

Oxygen is the <"prime metric in nitrification">,
heavily planted tanks, with some plants with <"the aerial advantage">, are very efficient at reducing all forms of fixed nitrogen, 
and that <"plant/microbe biofiltration"> is potentially a lot more <"efficient, flexible and resilient"> than "microbe only" biofiltration (there is no "plant only" biofiltration).
Then the only question you have to ask yourself are, "_have any of the above been compromised? " _and_ "is that likely to have led to an increase in ammonia? "_ 

If the answer to either question is"yes" you just keep on changing more water until you are back to a steady state.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

A long time has passed since the last update, this is about par for the course for me and my hobbies.
The interest comes and goes in waves, and its for the slow periods that I want to have an as simple to maintain tank as possible.
I havent become a good plantkeeper this time either.. (what a surprise!)

Tank has been pretty neglected unfortunately, its gotten a water change every two months in this time. And when im not changing water often, I dont feel comfortable adding much fertilizer.
Plants have not been very happy with this to say the least, but fish have seemed happy throughout and are breeding as usual.

Its not entirely easy to gauge the wellness status of a fish, what does a happy fish look like, really?
Can any of us say for sure? Their whiskers and fins are good looking and the fish are displaying natural behavior, and I guess this may be as close as we get.
Breeding doesnt really mean much as many fish will breed even in pretty shoddy conditions. Anyway back on topic 🙃

Ive found myself wanting to backtrack a little bit through my journal, to that stage where I was growing plants well-ish and also algae. It seems slightly better than growing plants poorly and algae well 😅😁

I think my main issue is being able to stay consistent. I can have the best most well planned out fertilizing and water change regime in the world, but if I cant stick to it for more than two weeks then its not gonna give me any good results.
My tendency to uproot plants and move them around every now and then probably doesnt help any struggling plants either.
Its not the water, its me 

So im giving -consistency- another go, for the 50th time or something. Try, fail, get back up, try again. I should be able to learn this skill some day, even if it takes me 60 years. I shall persevere!  My apologies for the cheesyness.

This is the second time I have been able to basically kill plants with what I think maybe is a severe nitrate and/or iron deficiency.
Im thinking of calling it "Fertilizer staying in bottle disease".

Its especially visible with Pogostemon helferi, the poor "canary in the mines" plant.
Im not entirely sure its just iron deficiency, as I recognized the symptoms from last time and started adding iron about twice a week to fix it. But it still continued.
Growth gets paler and paler in the top as it gradually slows down to a halt, and then the bottom of the stem melts.
I saw the same thing with Hygrophila difformis and Hygrophila costata, although with less paling of new growth.
Limnophila sessiliflora, Heteranthera zosterifolia, Myriophyllum mattogrossense, and Hydrocotyle tripartita stopped growing but didnt show much stunting of tops or melting at the bottom.
And Rotala H'ra, Ludwigia Super Red, Nesaea Crassicaulis and Ammania senegalensis all stunted spectacularly but didnt melt.
I find it interesting, if nothing else, that the plants react so differently to poor conditions.

So I think Ive mentioned before that I am a fishkeeper first and a plantkeeper second.
This is still true, and a few weeks ago I got some rare thermometer knifefish (Gymnorhamphichthys rondoni)
To accomodate these wonderful weirdos, the temperature was raised from 22 to 26 degrees celcius and more sandy space was made in the tank.
These like to bury themselves completely in the sand, sometimes with their little noses sticking out.
They feed at night and are not aggressive feeders, so to allow the food to sit on the sand and not get immediately blown into the filter intake, the spray bar was taken out and I swapped to a simple spade shaped outlet pointed at the driftwood.

I threw out almost all of the dying stem plants, and all but one stem of P. helferi. This one stem escaped, and found its way to the intake strainer, shaded by driftwood and plants. Here it stopped melting and started growing fresh green top leaves once I started fertilizing again. I got around to fishing it out a week later and threw it away, because im cruel like that. But I was impressed by its ability to recover from such a sorry state.

I dont have any pictures of the bad times but I snapped some pictures now to show you the status per today. I always feel bad for writing too much and not having enough pictures.




After my partial stem-o-cide I went out and got more pots of Bolbitis heudelotii 💞, some more Trident Java Fern and I would have gotten more Windelow but the store had another round of the mysterious java fern disease and their Windelow was all gnarly.
Got a new pot of Hygrophila difformis and Ludwigia Super Red as well.






Nesaea crassicaulis unstunting with new tips. Not -that- bad looking growth for non CO2 imo.
Difformis behind behaving like its normal difformis-y self again.






New stems of Super Red adjusting to my conditions. Time will tell if it can survive long term in my tank.
Hydrocotyle growing again and sending out new runners and leaves.




Some BBA from the bad times. In my experience so far this algae loves low to zero nutrients, flow, and the more light the better.

Snapped a really crappy picture of one of my detritus worms photobombing my pictures





I like these little critters, Im always very happy to see small white flea things in the plants and these worms are a super useful indicator.
The detritus worms mainly live in the bottom of my external filter, but when they start coming out the outflow I know theres a population boom and that its time to clean the filter. Lately with the knifefishes, feeding has been at an all time high and the need to clean the filter has increased.
I hope more of them will settle in the sand bottom, maybe they are trying to but get eaten by the corys before being able to get a good population going.
Having some sort of critter population in the sand would be super useful for feeding the knives.




To finish off heres a picture of todays production from the corys. Theyve been laying eggs 2-3 times a week for some months now.
Unfortunately they are quite bad at getting them properly fertilized, and also very happy to turn right around and eat the eggs as soon as they are laid.
Poor stupid things.


----------



## rebel

Hufsa said:


> Its not entirely easy to gauge the wellness status of a fish, what does a happy fish look like, really?


Survival of high percentage off spring will probably be a good indicator. Long Term survival of the adult fish is also an indicator. Short term, excellent coloration and aesthetics/ activity could be short term surrogate markers.


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## rebel

Hufsa said:


> it gradually slows down to a halt, and then the bottom of the stem melts.


either CO2 or light but most likely CO2.


----------



## Hufsa

rebel said:


> either CO2 or light but most likely CO2.


Light has been unchanged and CO2 is the same as well (none), not sure how you reached this conclusion?
Could you elaborate a bit?


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## rebel

Hufsa said:


> Light has been unchanged and CO2 is the same as well (none), not sure how you reached this conclusion?
> Could you elaborate a bit?


As plant mass grows it needs more CO2 and light.


----------



## Hufsa

It didnt really do that much growing though, it was trimmed shortly before. The main change was fewer water changes and very little ferts.
I store and air my water change water overnight now, so the CO2 levels of the change waters should be low.


----------



## rebel

Hufsa said:


> It didnt really do that much growing though


Interesting. If you really want to find out, you should change one thing at a time and observe carefully. If more than one thing changes, then conclusions can't be drawn.


----------



## Ady34

Hufsa said:


> I always feel bad for writing too much and not having enough pictures.


Don’t, I’ve just enjoyed reading the write up, honest and interesting. Seems you have a handle on how to correct any failings and can choose how much you want to put in and get out which is great. I’m a firm believer in enjoying the hobby and it fitting within your lifestyle.
The tank looks great also.
Cheerio,


----------



## Hufsa

The thermometer knifefish seem to be getting accustomed to life in captivity. Awaiting us for this evenings feeding were no less than three out of four black snoots sticking out of the sand. I think they are starting to learn that the bloodworm arrives around this time, and the snoots were anticipating it. I would like to say they looked positively eager but that may be anthropomorphizing them just a touch. 

Usually they just have the noses poking out, but sometimes you get lucky and see the whole head, like this pic from earlier this week.




Sometimes you just see a mouth buried deep in the sand..



The sand is 0,2-0,7 mm grains for reference. Very small mouth.

While I was dispensing the bloodworms, I somewhat hurriedly asked my SO to take some photos of a knife while one was eating. It wasnt an easy job for sure, the tank is dark except for a headlight I wear that they dont seem to mind once they start feeding, and the glass is of course full of scratches, algae and watermarks as usual.
We got one decent-ish photo however and you can sorta see why they call them thermometer knifefish, with the long black line accompanied by faint black bars, as if marking the degrees celcius. This is one of the smallest knives and the blobs in the front of it is an otocinclus and a cory cat. They too greatly enjoy bloodworms 🙄




Of our group of four knives (affectionately referred to as the long bois), two are noticeably smaller. These two have an especially good appetite and have started to appear from the sand on their own at feeding time when they either feel my arm in the tank, or when the sand is disturbed a bit. Im hoping to eventually "train" all of them to come out this way. I use tweezers to carefully bury some bloodworms in the sand, so that food will be available throughout the night and not be hoovered up immediately by the corys. The largest knife also shows a preference for eating only buried worms, instead of the ones on top of the sand. The other three will eat from the top and then start digging if they cant find any more.
The knives are very docile fish and dont seem to be particularly distressed by being uncovered from the sand, so to ensure they are getting a little bit of food every day we have started to gently coax a few of them out at feeding time. Once they sense the bloodworms they start eating eagerly on their own.  Although if you take them out of the sand in daytime or without bloodworms they just bury themselves again immediately. 

Today I was very happy to see that the largest one (big boi) ate some worms and appears slightly more energetic than yesterday. We noticed a bleeding scrape on his side a few days ago and I have been near tears thinking he might fall ill and not make it. I feel very responsible for these guys, they have had such a long journey. Being fished up in a river in the amazon, transported all over the world probably costing the lives of many of them, and it seems like such a horribly cruel fate if they were to die due to lack of care in my hands. We're not entirely sure what he got himself injured on, but ive taken a dremel to most of the edges on the redmoor wood in hopes of preventing further injuries. 

Lastly is a bonus picture I got earlier today from my SO.
Otos sure know how to find the goofiest resting positions, and I just love this expression


----------



## Hufsa

Just had the pleasure of seeing 3 knifefish out and poking around in the aquarium. According to them I am late with feeding time! How inconsiderate of me 



Im sorry for the horrendous picture quality. I would say something about the lighting and the speed of the fish but meh. A poor craftsman blames his tools 😁

I have added about 3 hours of "sunset time" to the end of my light period, to see if I can get them used to enough light so that we can see them feeding. The light is set to its lowest at 1% on the yellow white channel, and while that is fairly bright still in my opinion, the knives dont seem to mind it much apparently. They are definitely starting to expect food around this time. Im feeling a little bit lazy tonight however so they got a bit of granulate from TA Aquaculture as a snack, and then ill give them some bloodworms later tonight. Im neither disciplined or regular enough to always give them dinner at exactly 21:00, so they better get used to this 

Honestly seeing them out unprompted like this is beyond what I could have hoped for, I have been fully prepared for these guys to be the kind of fish that you know that you have, but that you dont see, and that would have been perfectly fine. It is in their nature to be nocturnal. But I am also happy that my 'evil' plan is working so far  Maybe I will be able to get them to feed from my hand? Now that would be asking a lot. But they are eating bloodworms out of the tweezers already so I guess never say never.

I have been thinking that this might be the wrong forum for these kinds of posts, forum being mostly about plants and aquascaping and such. But this is the only forum I use and Im too lazy to start up anywhere else, so I guess you all will just have to suffer it 

I am a bit curious if the posts I write here will show up on google or not?
I found very little information about these guys when I did my pre-purchase research. Im sort of intentionally putting my experiences with them online, so that it may be of use to others.

On that topic I want to note that they have shown absolutely no aggression towards each other, and do not pay each other any mind. I havent seen them interacting other than accidentally trying to bury themselves in the same spot and partially uncovering a conspecific. They also seem to end up burying themselves in the same part of the tank, but if it is by accident, on purpose, or because of other conditions in the tank, I wouldnt be able to say. Their snouts are almost always pointed towards the flow though, which I find interesting. They dont mind the other bottom dwellers, and navigate around corydoras and otocinclus without acknowledging them. They do get a bit startled and bury themselves if a shrimp starts picking at their nose, but my Neocaridina are spoiled bullies that will fight full grown otos over a bit of food, so I dont blame them for avoiding them


----------



## rebel

Amazing fish dude!!


----------



## Karmicnull

Astonishing fish.  I wouldn't have thought there was enough water flow for them to breathe if they spend the day buried, but clearly there is!


----------



## Hufsa

Ive bought some more new fish after the thermometer knives, and I figured they should also get a proper introduction to the journal. 

First among them were 4 juvenile/subadult Rineloricaria eigenmanni, henceforth referred to as the grey fishsticks. They made themselves at home immediately and the day after I got them in the tank, two were already humping each other vigorously in a cave  They have been doing this on and off for almost a week now, and when I woke up today they had finally gotten something to show for it. A small clutch of green eggs were found both in the cave and partially scattered across the sand. I was planning to let the male take care of the eggs, but since they had made such a mess of things I ended up taking the eggs and transferring them to a tumbler. This is probably their first spawn, and I could already tell some of the eggs were unlikely to be fertilized. Most of them have gotten milky as the day has passed, but some look like they may be viable. We shall see. The male was quite offended when I removed him from the cave and so the grey fishsticks have been skulking in the shadows all day. The following picture was the best I could get of one. They will come around im sure. There is another female among the 4 and she is even more rotund than the first, so if Mr Fishstick wants to try again, he wont have to wait too long to find a willing female.










I also got 4 young Sturisomatichthys panamensis, nicknamed the brown fishsticks. My SO is a bit unhappy with this, as they arent brown at all at the moment, but rather black and beige. But they should get browner with age. "Other fishsticks" doesnt really work as a nickname.








These guys are spunky little things and have an amazing way of claiming possession of their desired algae pellet. They shove and whip their tails as hard as they can when someone gets too close. The other fish roll their eyes and just swim around this strangely aggressive twig, but if two should decide they want the same pellet, something like this may happen.





Luckily for everyone they have no teeth or any way of actually hurting anyone, so its just a hilarious display of various power stances.
They also quite like sweet potato..
They came in a little thin, but the concavity in their bellies is already on the mend and soon they will be in better condition.





Big boi made an appearance earlier, and I managed to snap a few non blurry pictures of his head. Hes still not out of the woods. He is eating only minimally at feeding time and tires easily. He is noticeably less energetic than the other three. His wound is healing but he may have something systemic he is dealing with. They are being treated for various parasites, but I think it comes down to him, wether he will be able to recover from his long journey or not.





I also got 20 tiny Corydoras pygmaeus. I have been looking for C. hastatus which is my favorite cory, but couldnt resist getting these guys. I figured I can sell this group on later if I want to switch down the road. They are adorable though and not as shy as the hastatus, so I may not want to replace them. I didnt get many good photos of them but here is one next to a shrimp.





The last new addition proved impossible to photograph, but rest assured these 20 Boraras brigittae are perky and faster than they have any right to be. I was taking a photo of some BBA growing on the bolbitis leaves, and managed to capture one right as it was about to enter Warp 9. I have really missed having this species, they add so much life to the upper areas of the tank and I have never seen them bother the shrimp. Almost all my favorite fish are bottom dwellers, but these guys really are the exception to that. They have been having a grand time eating any detritus worm foolish enough to swim in the water column. 





With these new additions needing to gain weight, food has been abundant to say the least. My Corydoras venezuelanus are extremely fat and very jolly. I think theyre converting the food directly to more cory eggs. I have spotted several tiny corydoras fry swimming around in the nooks and crannies.
I had around twenty of the adults before, but to reduce stocking density and competition for food, I traded in half of them to the fish shop and now only have 9. Which is still more than enough.





Bonus Otocinclus + Shrimp combo picture


----------



## Ady34

Great story, great news and great fish......and shrimp


----------



## Hufsa

I was gonna write a cheerful post today about the ~500 eggs my corys have laid, but my day has somewhat been derailed by a bad filter smell. 
I was doing a 75% water change to mostly clear round 1 of the parasite medication out of the tank water, when I decided (on a whim) to make sure the filter was clean and nice. 

And thank god that I did that.

When I opened the prefilter compartment of the Ultramax, a very different smell than the usual "fresh forest mulm" greeted me. The best comparison I can make is the smell of unaged driftwood that has been buried under sand and turned blackish. 
It smelled what I imagine anaerobic stuff smells. To say this was very alarming to me would be an understatement. Clear in my mind was Darrels many posts on the importance of oxygenation and how canister filters can turn anoxic with disasterous results. I hurriedly went through the rest of the filter and the same bad smell persisted throughout the filter media. Cue internal screaming. The detritus worms were at a record high and they were creeping up the sides of the filter baskets. Part of me wonders if they were trying to get out. My overfeeding for the new arrivals and slacking on cleaning the filter intake strainer has caught up with me. The question now is how screwed am I..

I have not tested the water because I dont trust the tests any more, and even if they showed a positive I wouldnt be able to rely on the results to guide me. Its led me astray one too many times. So where does that leave me. Im telling myself that I have done what I would have done if the water and filter was indeed bad. I changed a ton of water. I have another ton preheating in my 220 liter barrel for another big change tomorrow. The prefilter strainer has been replaced with a coarse sponge. I added an airstone right next to the intake to make sure the water there is circulated. While I had the filter open I threw out the finest sponge layer entirely, and spread the medium sponge out into two baskets to help flow. Theres Seachem Prime in the tank.

What else can I do at this point?
I dont think I will un-panic until I see that everyone is ok. Or maybe I have just killed all my fish.. I hope not..


----------



## rebel

Hufsa said:


> What else can I do at this point?


What media do you have in your filter? I only run biologic media; noodles impede flow more than matrix. No filter wool etc.


----------



## Hufsa

rebel said:


> What media do you have in your filter?


Its two baskets of Sera Siporax, which is one of those white tube types of media. Had one basket of coarse sponge, one of medium and one of fine sponge but now the fine sponge has been removed. No floss.


----------



## Hufsa

Update this morning, no signs of anything bad going on as far as I can tell. Fish are behaving normally from what I can see. The brown fishsticks were pale yesterday, beige on beige instead of black on beige. But they look normal again today. Oto gills look a normal shade of pink to me, but I didnt notice them looking different yesterday either. Fingers crossed we make it out of this unscathed. Either way I have learned my lesson and wont be doing these mistakes again 





Pictures of cory eggs from yesterday. Unfortunately (/fortunately?) approximately half were unfertilized or were eaten. But maybe its for the best, imagine how many corys this would make if they all hatched and grew up. Not pictured are all the smaller egg groupings scattered every-which-where.













Hard to see but the Rineloricaria eigenmanni eggs are developing small grey fish in them. About half were unfertilized so there is only 10 left in the tumbler.




The second female moved into a cave a few days ago and the vigorous humping resumed. I cant tell if this was a new male or the same one, but either way, this morning there were more eggs. The male will be allowed to take care of this batch. I think they need some longer caves as the eggs were laid quite close to the opening. These are just some caves I already had on hand. Maybe ill make them some PVC tube ones.







A large gathering of Corydoras pygmaeus were schooling yesterday. I hope it wasnt because they were stressed. Either way I snapped a picture




This is my surface agitation as of three days ago.




Spray bar is back, my package with the JBL in/out set arrived. I might write some more on this kit later as im not super impressed with it.

Is this enough surface agitation?

The circulation seems a lot better in the tank when I have a spraybar on the back, but the Boraras have been acting confused since then and surfing in a corner. Im a bit concerned for them, as they are from relatively still waters. When I had the spade shape outlet for a while they seemed more at ease and knew where the current was. They would go racing every now and then but not do so constantly, and there were easy to access areas that had calmer water. Now they are in the current almost all the time.. Hmm..


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> So where does that leave me. Im telling myself that I have done what I would have done if the water and filter was indeed bad. I changed a ton of water. I have another ton preheating in my 220 liter barrel for another big change tomorrow. The prefilter strainer has been replaced with a coarse sponge. I added an airstone right next to the intake to make sure the water there is circulated. While I had the filter open I threw out the finest sponge layer entirely, and spread the medium sponge out into two baskets to help flow. Theres Seachem Prime in the tank.


That was all you could do. I'm pretty sure that most of us have been there at some point.

My guess would be no harm has been done. You've still got the plants, as your <"other source of biological filtration">. If you hadn't had a planted tank that would, most likely, have been a total fish kill because of <"single point of failure and positive feedback loops">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Did a 50% water change last night. I had to decide between 75% and 50% and since the fish were looking seemingly ok I decided on the lesser amount. The fish get more worked up and stressed when I do 75%, it seems like they can feel the water level getting very low and they pale and start rushing around maybe trying to avoid getting stranded.

Was upset to find that a venezuelanus cory I had seen looking a bit strange a few days ago had now gotten very strange looking indeed. As I was fishing it up with a net I realised it had dropsy. Ive never seen a cory with dropsy before, but now I know what it looks like. It was quickly PTS with a sharp knife and I spent the rest of the evening nauseated and worried.

Ive been fiddling with the outlet of the canister filter again today, because some of the fish seem unhappy with no calmer areas in the tank. The boraras do not settle down with too much current and I am worrying that they will exhaust themselves fighting the current constantly. The honey gourami is also extremely upset because her favorite corner in the back right was turned into a torrential bubble stream from the airstone I placed to help the filter recover. She has been melodramatically flopping around the tank, to the point where we thought she was dying. 

I have argued with myself a bit because as you may have noticed I tend to overthink things a smidge. I think that the circulation in the tank was likely perfectly fine the way it was, but it was the huge increase in food breaking down and maybe partically clogged intake that tipped it over the edge. Lots of fatty protein rich food breaking down in the canister filter would have pushed the oxygen demand way over the amount the flow through could supply. So now that I have stopped feeding so much and is cleaning the intake sponge nervously, the oxygen demand should go back to where it was and the flow should be sufficient again. 

What do you guys think? I really welcome more opinions on this as I tend to get lost in my own lines of reasoning and overlooking other aspects.

Is this enough surface agitation do you reckon? I know this is a bit like asking how long a piece of string is







This is how it is set up as of writing this. Red is the main flow from the canister filter.
Purple is the skimmer, set up to try to aid the main flow and not disturb it.
Teal is the airstone that I have moved slightly away from the back right corner and now it sits pretty much directly under the canister outlet. I would like to remove this airstone when the filter smells earthy and nice again, since I find all airstones quite noisy.

Pink is the gouramis precious hidey area and this is where she has her bed as well.. 
We noticed her always sleeping in that corner and a few weeks back my SO suggested I put in the bed I made for the betta I had before.
She seems to like it, she doesnt use it quite as much in daytime as Jeff did, but it supports her at night when shes sleeping.


----------



## Conort2

Those thermometer knives are great fish! Any idea what size these get to and if they will eat small tetras etc? There’s not too much information out there so it may be a case of learning on the job lol.

I’ve always liked the look of glass knife fish as something different for a South American tank but these seem even more unique.

Cheers

Conor


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## Hufsa

Conort2 said:


> Any idea what size these get to and if they will eat small tetras etc?


They should get about 20-25 cm long. They will definitely not eat tetras, and I havent seen them show any interest in my dwarf shrimp. They are not predatory in behavior but more like a grazer that eats only tiny crustaceans and worms in the sand. They are very peaceful so I would not house them with anything aggressive or that could pick on them.
Make sure you can feed them late at night, and that the food wont be eaten by other fishes before they get a chance. Im considering rehoming my big corys to ease competition even more.
They will want very fine sand and enough open room, I wouldnt house them on anything coarser than 0.6-0.7 mm sand. Im planning to make the switch from 0.2-0.7 mm sand to 0.1-0.5 mm just to make them as comfortable as possible.

They come from very soft and clean water, I found this snippet of info in a youtube comment while I was doing research

From video 


"Depending on high water/rainy season (ca. December - April/May) and low water/dry season (starting May/June, hottest months August-September, up ca. Dec.); those rainforest creeks are always much colder than the main streams (R. Negro, Solimoes, Purus, Xingu, Tapajos... 28 - 30++ - up to 36° C).
Current strongly dependent on water level.
This spot/creek:
May (still rainy season): 25.1°C, pH 4.1, conductivity 7.9 µS/cm, 0.4 - 0.6 m/s current, 0.5 m visibility;
September (dry season): 24.8°C, pH 4.6, 6.4 µS/cm, 0.23 m/s, visibility higher (much shallower water, 0.32 m vs. 0.87 m at the same spot at highwater/rainy season), clear blackwater is "crystal clear", but during highwater or after heavy rains visibility decreases dramatically.
GH, KH? - it's nearly "destilled water", see conductivity.
This video was made in October (low water), did not measure at the exact spot of the video this day (was night  ), but at a small, similar creek nearby (pH 5.1,  6.3 µS/cm, 24.7°C).
Current there is always low at low water and much higher at higher water levels; but current is highly dependent on the spot one measures; measured "in the middle of the creek", but in curves, behind or in front of rocks or wood, the velocity can differ significantly. Not all spots in a small creek show the same water current."


You might have some trouble sourcing these guys, they appear to be rare in the hobby.
If you think you can provide them the right conditions I would definitely recommend them though  They remind me a lot of seahorses and have completely stolen my heart


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## Conort2

Thanks for the detailed information. I wouldn’t keep them with anything larger than a corydoras or dicrossus. My aquarium currently isn’t large enough but looking to upgrade To a 4/5 footer when I move house in the near future. These sound like they would be ideal as a stand out oddball. I’ve also seen dwarf tiger knife fish advertised recently, apparently they only get to 6 inches long so are another one to consider.

cheers 

Conor


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## Karmicnull

I'm about the forum's least qualified person to comment but based on all the other journals I've read your surface agitation looks fine.  Now that you've got rid of your backlog of decomposing protein, and cut back on excess new protein, your Archaea should catch up pretty quickly.

Cheers,

  Simon


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## Hufsa

Today I picked up a nice new upgrade for my tank, an Akvastabil Fusion 250 liter, measuring 100x50x50 cm.
If this was a perfect world (aka where I was King) I would force them to make the tanks 60 cm wide and 40 cm tall instead, but alas I am not.. yet.
Despite this im looking forward to 100x10 cm more space for my bottom dwellers and driftwood, rocks, and various other bottom dweller paraphernalia.

It will replace my older generation Akvastabil 180 liter. It has served me (and a previous owner), faithfully for god knows how many years. I picked it up second hand when I was a teenager, so the tank is at least 13 years old. This brand is highly regarded in Scandinavia, the tanks have aluminum frames and are thought to be able to withstand most anything short of full blown nuclear war. There are 30 year old tanks of this brand still knocking about with original silicone work. Its a bit like the Eheim of aquariums.
Except Eheim has gone downhill in later years but I digress..

Hopefully this new gen is as solid as the older ones. It has a top frame and a bottom frame, but no side frames, which will be nice. Fish, shrimp and eggs tend to get hidden from sight behind the side frames. I know framed tanks arent "haute couture" right now, but there is something very comforting about the solidness of the frame. The tanks are less delicate in general, and can tolerate much more shenanigans from whatever you place it on.

The light top/lid of the generation I have now is really annoying. Im sure it was groundbreaking / innovative or whatever at the time, but the openings are only about 10 cm wide, way too small to comfortably work inside the tank. If I want to reach something in the back I have to pick up the entire lid and move it back towards the wall, where some plastic corners will helpfully stop me from achieving decent working space. The slot in the back lid to allow tubes and stuff to exit the tank is way too small and thus the back lid is never properly closed. I cant have an automatic feeder without making some sort of wild tower for the feeder to stand on, and of course a lid flap would have to be open constantly for the feeder to have access to the water. Open top aquariums have been vetoed by my SO and I tend to agree with him. It does get really damp really fast. Modifying the lid is not really a good option as its all solid aluminum aside from the helpful corners. For the same reason, waiting for the tank/lid to die on its own and need replacing would likely end up with the tank winning.

The old tank also has a brace across the middle, in -exactly- the location where it feels the most natural to drop the fish food in.
The new lid has two helpful feeding holes, and can be removed in three sections. The light is independent so I will be able to remove the entire top and still see what I am doing in the tank.
The marketing blurb states that the two slim cross braces (made for LED lights to rest on) are "removable for when youre decorating". Im hoping this means I can go without them entirely, but I will be contacting the manufacturer beforehand just to be sure.

The aluminium frame stand the old tank came with is way too low and gives a tall person instant back pain when doing maintenance. In addition to this, it has a very inconvenient bar running across the front, that makes you lift/drag ~20 kilos of filled Aquael Ultramax filter over said bar, every time you want to do filter maintenance. Of course it is also just slightly too low to open the prefilter in situ. This frame stand is also indestructible just like the tank so it will never "need" replacing.

So I also ordered the matching furniture stand for my new tank 
Ah, to be able to effortlessly slide the filter towards me! To have a shelf! And doors to keep all the mess inside hidden! What luxuries 

I got the tank and flat packed stand home today, but am not in a hurry to make the switch itself. The back glass of the new tank needs painted black, and the stand needs assembling. Im planning to make the switch from my current sand to the very fine 0.1-0.5 mm sand with this new tank, and this will of course take out a good chunk of the archaea/bacteria community. Especially in light of the recent filter disaster, I am in no rush to rock the boat again.
If we say plants are one pillar of support in a tank, filter is another pillar and the sand/wood/glass surfaces is the third pillar, I will be resetting 2/3 of my third pillar. I dont feel like this would be a very smart move to do when I just (almost?) killed off my entire filter. So the filter needs to recover completely and smell nice and fresh for a while before I will consider switching.
I also have a ton of baby fishsticks on the way and tiny corydoras fry roaming around. I dont want to accidentally squash any or leave anyone behind.
The new tank is going in the same spot the old tank is, which makes things extra difficult and fun.

For a good while I thought I would build a custom lid, custom stand and order a custom frameless tank with my ideal measurements, but in light of my health this year, I think this will be a really good compromise. And things will actually get done instead of just being a plan for like 5 more years 😁


----------



## Hufsa

Oh I almost forgot!

On our way home we stopped by a petstore we dont usually frequent, mostly on a whim. I was expecting to see the same old common fish there, guppies and platys and goldfish, but suddenly my eyes spot zebra otos. This is a rare find here, even in a well stocked fish store. They were perky and healthy looking, with no ammonia burn and nice tummies.

I couldnt find any price tag on their tank, only for standard otos, so I asked the lady minding the store. She somewhat disinterestedly told me the oto fish cost 3,2 pounds each, or 8,2 for three. I asked her if she was sure, and she said yes.

Now at this point I might have been a bit unethical, because instead of asking her if they really shouldnt have been more expensive, I told her id take all of them 
All 4 zebra otos came with me for the same price I paid for just one in my regular store. I'll just tell myself its not my fault they dont know what theyre selling.
The lady minding the store had such a horrible time trying to net and bag them that I almost asked her if I could just do it myself.
But the fish were eventually transfered to a bag with way too much water, symbolically and poorly wrapped in some newspaper at my request, and on their way home with me.
I might be going to hell but at least ill have these sweet otos 

Edit: Second almost forgot, also got more plants. Will write more on these later


----------



## Hufsa

I checked the filter today and it smells nice again! Not as strongly as it usually does, but it is very light in particulates and dirt now since ive been in there a lot looking after the oxygenation.
Ive always loved the smell of the filter but I have never been as happy to smell that earthy smell as I am today 
I stood for a while, just sniffing sponges in the kitchen, and im sure I looked quite insane.
But yeah, very very happy.

Things are fairly well in the tank, I think? Ive lost a few adult shrimp, but I think its because I used less GH powder in the change water and then did several large water changes almost back to back. They dont like being forced to molt and ive had issues with this before.

The long boys are doing good still, some are better at coming out and eating than others. Big boy's scrape was completely healed a little while ago. A few are still flashing their gills against the sand, and I find it curious that it seems worse now that im medicating than before. Im using a Praziquantel medication. Today is the last day of the second (last) treatment. Im unsure if the flashing means the knives are bothered by the medication or by the parasites. Or maybe the medication is bothering the parasites, which in turn bothers the fish. But the parasites should be dead now 🤔 I might do a third course in a weeks time, or I might take a break and observe. Im hoping im not dealing with resistant parasites. None of the other fish are flashing or seem bothered in any way. The smallest knife does not itch at all, and he appears to keep his gills closer to his head than the others.

Its possible that there are water quality issues from the filter episode, but none of the other fish show any symptoms or issues, aside from those few shrimp I lost. If the shrimp were dying because of poor water quality, then shouldnt all the tiny cory fry I have swimming around, also be affected? It would make more sense that its a shrimp specific issue.
Either way, im trying my darnedest not to worry overly much about it.
Im feeding with great restraint and looking after the filter as best as I can. I also increased my plant mass. Fate will have to take care of the rest.

I bought a new batch of red mosquito larvae to feed them, and unbeknownst to me, the store grabbed extra large ones. They are the biggest mosquito larvae I have ever seen and I dont even want to think about what sort of mosquitoes would hatch from these. The only fish with big enough mouths to eat them are the venezuelanus corys. And they are more than fat enough already. This has resulted in me having to finely chop little frozen cubes of disgusting larvae for every dinner. It almost looks like strawberry jam. Forbidden strawberry jam..

On to a different subject, papa-grey-fishstick is doing a great job looking after his eggs. He is dilligently cleaning them and defending them from anyone who dares look in their direction. They all look to be fertilized as well. The eggs in the tumbler are hatching as of writing, but we had some last minute egg casualties to fungus. So it looks like we might only get 3 fry in there. One is out of the eggshell, one is struggling to get the shell off his head, and the last one remains a mystery. I feel for the one with the eggshell hat, he is having the struggle of his life and he isnt even fully born yet! Unfortunately he is so impossibly tiny that I think if I were to try to help him, it would be impossible to grab only the shell.


----------



## Hufsa

Poor quality photos from feeding time, Episode 37:

Smallest knife eating with the others. I like his pattern a lot, the patches on the back on creamy yellow, the stripe along the side, with the transparent thermometer markings below it




Enter stage left, the gourami is wondering what all the fuss is about. Actually, she is wondering why the fuss isnt about her.




Shes not sure what im doing but shes quite sure she would make a great center of attention regardless.




This is the first time shes seen the knives, and she gives it a good frisking with her feelers. 
In the background, daddy fishstick guards his eggs and wishes we would stop floodlighting his cave.




The gang is left to eat in peace.


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## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> Spray bar is back, my package with the JBL in/out set arrived. I might write some more on this kit later as im not super impressed with it.



Its been in the tank for -ONE WEEK- and a part of the JBL in/out sets has already broken. Unbelievable! 

I wrote that I wasnt particularly impressed with it, but little did I know just how poorly this crap is made.
The colors of the spray bars dont match the rest of the kit, the fittings are completely hit and miss on how well they fit together, and the elbow doesnt want to stay attached.
If you so much as look at it wrong it pops off and its a pain in the ass to carefully balance it just so - so it stays on straight.
And yesterday, the plastic elbow just split open right where the seam is.





The kits (including some overpriced suction cups that would make Eheim blush) cost me no less than 32 pounds 
I have bits and pieces costing half a pound from fleabay that are way more solidly made than this.
Its not that ive been too heavy handed with it either, its made to be push-fit and I am very careful when I assemble and take things apart.

The thing that bothers me the most is now I cant trust the U shaped fittings that go over the tank. If one of these were to split open in the wrong place, the filter would pump water out all over the floor.

I'll try to contact the webshop where I bought the kits, but I expect them to give approximately zero shits about this. 
Their customer service policy has been to just ignore any emails you send them that they dont feel like responding to.


----------



## Hufsa

On the much more positive side, the plants seem to be doing good. 
Maybe ive had a consistency deficiency all along. 
Should I rename my journal I wonder. I'll wait and see a little while longer.

Im seeing less hair algae, and not noticing the BBA spreading significantly either. Theres still a lot of old BBA on some of the driftwood branches, but thats just because ive been too lazy to take them out and treat them with glut. My laziness figured there was no point treating the BBA if it was just gonna grow right back, but that might be wrong. Either way it has been a convenient excuse.

Ive bought more plants in two batches, more bolbitis and various types of java fern. Im going back to a lot of epiphyte plants again like I had years ago. I miss the variety in colors and textures that stem plants offer, but the rhizome plants have other qualities that are a good fit for me. They dont mind being moved around, and I can plant them off the sand (obviously), leaving more space for my fish. They grow, but do not grow so rapidly that they are ever that out of control. Stems in low tech seem to either have the freshly trimmed and way too bare - look, or the way overgrown and rowdy look. I dont think im good enough with management to consistently having them the "just right" length.

I havent stayed entirely on the mark with adding fertilizer, it has been about 50% of what I had written down that I wanted to add. 
Especially K, just because its 4 times more dilute (because of solubility concerns), and I have to pump like 20 pumps to add as much as my notes say. Yes I am THAT lazy.
Im looking at getting one of those dosing bottles with a chamber just so I wont have to pump it  

It hasnt seemed to make any kind of difference to the plants to be honest, so im thinking I can decrease the amounts a bit and see how it goes. 
I think my targets were around 1/3 or 1/2 EI, which is probably much much more than I need to add.

Now the high priests of EI will probably exclaim that there is no harm in having way too much nutrients. 
Just as im writing this, I can hear them sharpening their aquascaping scissors and see the blindingly bright light of their ADA torches in the distance.
But before you come and beat my algae growing punk ass, consider this; 

How many things in life are completely black or white, either or, no shades of gray at all?
There is not a lot of things like that ive found. Maybe fertilizer is one of the exceptions, maybe not. Its worth considering


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## rebel

Hufsa said:


> so im thinking I can decrease the amounts a bit and see how it goes.


Keep a journal dude. Sometimes it helps to identify patterns and learn.


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## Hufsa

rebel said:


> Keep a journal


I have this journal as well as a physical one  Do you reckon I need a third?


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## Hufsa

Yesterday knives were feeling quite good at feeding time, Big boy was out eating chopped bloodworm for a record amount of time, along with the medium and extra small knife. They looked perky and I saw one flash its gills against the sand only once. I tried taking pictures but they all came out quite blurry unfortunately.

I decided earlier today to go ahead with a third course of Praziquantel. My reasoning being that a half finished job with parasites is not good when it comes to resistance, and because of still seeing that flashing yesterday. I decided to go with a dose of 2,5 mg/l instead of 2,0 mg/l. This is to be more in line with the dosing ive read online as being most effective, and the same dosing as PraziPro. PraziPro seems to come highly recommended on many sites, but this particular product is not readily available here. I should have dosed yesterday actually, because apparently 5 days between treatments is the ideal time for a temperature of 25 C. Hoping 6 days will also be ok 

I just tried to feed them and the knives are not feeling well. They were not interested in bloodworm and quite listless. They wanted to go right back into the sand.
Its very clear to me now that they either dont appreciate this medication, or something else is bothering them. My forgetful self didnt put an air stone in the tank when I dosed earlier today, but they have two airstones going at full blast now. I read somewhere that a lot of medications use up oxygen in the water, so im almost hoping this is why they arent feeling so sharp. Oxygen would be at the lowest levels down in the sand where they are most of the time. I will monitor them for the rest of the night and have filled the waterchange barrel incase they need an emergency water change later.

[Edit: For the record, im using esha gdex for my medication]


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## Hufsa

Just checked on the knives, Big boy was the one I found first in the sand. He seems to be doing better. Sniffed my hand for a bit before returning to the sand. Fingers crossed they just needed some oxygen. I will leave the medication in the tank until tomorrow, unless my last check before bed shows anything else.


----------



## Hufsa

Yesterday I changed 75% of the water as planned, meaning the Prazi was only in the tank for ~24 hours for this third and last treatment. I felt it was the best course of action since im so unsure what is going on. Later that night three of the knives came out for bloodworms, and while they did flash quite a lot, they had good appetites and activity levels again. The XS knife was even out and about for a solid 3 hours, as every time I checked on the tank I saw him swimming around rooting up worms. 

Im now giving the fish a solid period of just clean water with no fussing for a while, just to see if things will stabilize a bit. I did read that fish may flash during and a little bit after fluke treatments, as the flukes have damaged the gills and it needs to heal. I dont know. None of the other fish seem sick or are itching themselves, so its oddly specific to the knives. Then again they are wild caught.






The death count on shrimp is now above 11. None of the newborn shrimplets or juveniles are affected, which is typical for molting issues. I thought I had the problems mostly sorted out when I was able to do 50% water changes once a week, a regime that would make many shrimpkeepers scream in terror. But 50-75% water changes three times a week seems to have been too much for some of them. 
In the back of my mind is the possibility that they are dying from water quality issues, but it doesnt make sense that I find so many newborn shrimplets and have fish fry up to my ears if the water is bad enough to kill 11+ adult shrimp.

The Rineloricaria's (grey fishsticks) second brood started hatching today. It may take 2-3 days for all the eggs to hatch.
In the first brood only two hatched, one struggled too much getting out of the egg, and sadly the other healthy one was eaten by a venezuelanus cory 

This morning I met one of the first in this batch, casually chilling on the glass front of the tank. 
Perfect timing for this little guy, as I rehomed all the adult venezuelanus corys. Theres only a few of their fry left, and they will be taken to the LFS once they get bigger.
I dont regret rehoming the big corys, while I really like the species, feeding time is noticeably much calmer now, and it will be much easier for all manner of fry to survive in the tank without the big boisterous hoovers.



 

I added a few small bits of driftwood a day ago, and they are still floating around on the surface. Somehow, two stick fry have made their way up to them shortly after hatching. They seem to really like it up there. They are impressively camouflaged.



 







Plant health is alright, they are kinda taking a B role right now with all the fishy business going on.



My lone stem of crassicaulis is doing something weird, the leaves were growing straight and fine for a good while, but then after the pink dotted line on the image, they started growing curly and strange. I cant remember if I moved the plant slightly around that time, or if I did anything else that could affect it. @rebel said I should keep a journal, and I sort of jokingly responded that I have two already. But jokes aside, I could get a lot better at writing down more things and smaller details, especially since Ive had some memory issues this year, and its not exactly getting any better. I would have to be both disciplined and consistent to do that though, definitely a weak side for me 

Here is a really shoddy whole tank view. Im gonna let you guys in on a secret, its a real pro-tip actually. If you take a really blurry picture, from a decent distance away, no one will be able to see your algae. Dont tell anyone about this though 



I added some more oak leaves to provide surfaces for the fry to graze and for them to hide amongst.




The fourth grey fishstick appears to indeed be a male, he has been cleaning the second cave on and off. The little blur near his tail is another cory fry.

I dont think I mentioned it, but I got four of both kinds of fishsticks in the aim of having a pair of each. So two will be sold off once I have a good pair. For the grey sticks, this took no time at all, while for the brown sticks I assume they need to do a whole lot more growing before I will be able to tell the genders. The brown sticks may prove to feel slightly too big for my tank once they are absolutely full grown. I do prefer the look of small fish in big tanks. But I will see when I get to that point. There should be no issue for the health of the fish, its just my sense of aesthetic. A full grown pair of Sturisoma (now Sturisomatichthys) is very easy to sell 




C. pygmaeus has gotten conditioned in record time. I expect they may start to lay eggs soon.



Bold little venezuelanus fry. Pretty much nothing in the tank will hurt him now, and he is not afraid to get his share of food.

Lastly, the gourami has had a grand old time today playing in the bubble stream. She enters from below and then lets the bubbles carry her up and away. 
Shes spent the good part of the afternoon playing like this. Ive not seen her this happy in a long time 
I will write a post about her at a later point, this post is getting too long. So instead I leave you with this picture collage.


----------



## Hufsa

Smallish update.
Tank has had a week now of just clean water and rest, and unfortunately it has not helped things. Water readings are 0 and 0 for ammonia and nitrite.

The knives are doing increasingly poorly. The flashing has not subsided and they are more and more apathic and sometimes rest sideways on the sand for prolonged periods.
Yesterday I saw that their pectoral fins are clamped down to lines and somewhat bloodshot.
Theyre reaching a critical point of whatever it is that they have, and I cant afford to not do anything.
Going by the clamped and bloodshot fins, and the lack of results from the courses of Prazi, I went out and bought some strong antibacterial medication for them.
It might be that right now, a secondary (or primary) infection of bacteria is what is hardest on them.
It feels like im fumbling completely in the dark about what the correct course of action is, and every action has several pros and cons.



 

 



I gave them all a medicated bath this evening before returning them to the tank. I held my breath as I placed them in the bath, as I reckon they had about a 50/50 chance of just dropping dead on contact with the water. But they didnt seem any worse off than when I fished them out. The gourami was allowed to tag along for the bath, as shes been increasingly blushed in her gills and thats not normal for her.

I dont think fish just get bacterial infections for no reason, unless there is an underlying cause or the fish are very weak. The knives were very weak in the store and the owner told me she had almost lost all of them during acclimatization. So they were weakened before they came to me. But their intense itching/flashing doesnt sound like bacteria to me, and thats what it started with. The apathy came later. I also feel like its now slowly spreading to the others in the tank, as ive seen the pygmy corys swim a bit erratically and possibly flashing a bit. And now the blushing in the gourami. The gourami has been what I can only describe as depressed, since she lost her second husband early this year. So its not super easy to gauge how shes doing, since shes been moody and weird for a long time now.

Im really not keen to dose the entire tank with antibiotics, because I would kill off my entire filter colony.

I still feel like there is an underlying issue here, im just not 100% sure what it is. I picked up a stronger anti-parasitic medication today as well, but it kills both snails and shrimp.
So if im gonna use this, I will need to keep all the shrimp in a seperate tank for at least a month or two. The active ingredient is Diflubenzuron, which is a chitin inhibitor.
It claims to kill fish lice (Argulus), anchor worms (Lernaea), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), tapeworms (Cestodes).
Fish lice, anchor worms and other large parasites can be pretty quickly ruled out as they would be clearly visible on the fish.
Unlike Praziquantel, I have not found anything online about aquarium populations of gill flukes / Dactylogyrus being resistant to this medication.

It would be nice to have all of these ruled out though, especially the flukes. Unless I have a change of heart, I will likely undertake the quest to get out all the shrimp tomorrow, and get them set up in their own tank for a bit.

I am mentally preparing for the knifefish not to make it.. Its very sad and I wont get any more if I cant save these four 


I want to end the update with some good news and not have it all sad and bad news though.
All the fishstick eggs hatched shortly after the last post, and the tank is now absolutely crawling with fishsticks.
There were a few days I hardly dared put my hands in the tank, as there were tiny fishsticks covering pretty much every surface including the glass.
Now they are a bit older, they are more actively in search of food in the tank and will move out of the way if given some warning.
I cant say that I have lost any of them so far, as the place is still literally crawling with them.

The two male grey fishsticks had a bit of a spat earlier this week when the second male suggested that maybe they could make it into a threesome in the cave, and then the first male could leave and let him get on with it alone. The first male took great offense to this.









They got so angry fighting they turned red




To be honest, at some point I lost track on who was who, but one male was crowned victorious and returned to the waiting female.
One of the firstborn fry observed the whole thing and probably needs therapy.




To top it all off, as of yesterday and today, the male is laying on a double brood, as both females have visited his cave. I assume its the same male as the first spawn.
He seems to be preferred by the females, and the other male is not good about claiming a cave and trying to be inviting for the ladies.
At the rate this is going, I wont have room for much water in the tank by new years. I was almost hoping he would take a few weeks off, kick off his shoes and rest his weary fins a bit. 😉


----------



## Hufsa

I got all the dwarf shrimp and fan shrimp transferred to another tank today. 
It wasnt easy, had to take out all the plants, driftwood and dodge numerous baby fish, but I think I finished in good time. 
The process was obviously somewhat disturbing the fish, and I wanted to stress them out as little as possible.





Their new tank holds around 50 liters and has unceremoniously appeared in the kitchen next to the coffee machine and the kettle, displacing the toaster and some other stuff that used to live there. I got a heater and an Eheim Hang On Back filter out of the stash, and fortunately I have had the foresight to keep the filter media for this pump in the main canister filter. So it should be seeded and ready to go. They also got a few cups of sand from the main tank, as well as two big clumps of Bolbitis and the pebbles with Anubias on them. These plants should be able to take some neglect for a few months. Used tank water to fill up the new tank so there wouldnt be any shock for them with the sudden transfer. The three fan shrimp are royally pissed at me for disturbing them, but thats their go-to response for everything.

As I was fishing out shrimp I noticed more fish flashing, including fishsticks. This makes me feel more confident in my choice to treat for parasites.

This shrimp holiday colony will have to remain isolated until the main tank is declared healthy, but also until whatever parasite is present in the shrimp tank has died because of no fish hosts. Ill make sure not to use the same equipment on both tanks. I dont know how long all the potential parasites complete lifecycles are, I will do some googling and be very conservative. This is so much hassle, im only gonna do this once and then never again. After this everyone and their grandma is going into quarantine on arrival. I havent even started on the job of disinfecting my entire stash of aquarium supplies.. 
That will be fun. Especially 20 meters of hose and a 220 liter barrel I cant really reach the bottom of. But ill cry on that bridge when I get to it 

Since I used main tank water to fill the shrimp tank, the main tank got an approximate 40% water change, including Prime. The instructions for JBL Aradol doesnt say anything about water conditioners, but since many medications do, I will start the medication tomorrow morning when the surplus Prime has had some time to deactivate.

The bucket gang (4 knives + gourami) finished their second antibiotic bath just now. They dont seem any worse than yesterday. Possibly a tiny bit better but that may be entirely wishful thinking on my part. Some small amount of the antibiotics undoubtedly enters the main tank when I transfer them back from their baths, but I am hoping the levels are low enough for the filter to overcome. I will monitor for ammonia and nitrite just in case. 
Maybe I should quickly dip them in a second container of clean tank water before they go back in the tank? I think I will do that as of tomorrow.
I just want to make the stressful process as quick as possible.
Im catching them with my hands as it goes very quickly and is not abrasive to them.
Im thinking to continue the baths daily for five more days unless circumstances change.


----------



## ScareCrow

Hi Hufsa, sorry if I've missed any of the following suggestions but I've read through your thread and don't remember them being mentioned. As a caveat to the following suggestions, I've not kept any of the fish species you are dealing with so can't say if they will work or will be detrimental. 
Adding some salt and or tannins to the tank, would act as a mild anti-bacterial/parasite between dips and shouldn't harm your filter bacteria (salt might a little but tannins will be fine). Salt can also be added to the dip solution if you don't want to add it to your tank. Garlic enriched food was all the rage a few years ago, especially for scaleless fish but I seem to remember that recently there was some controversy over it and I can't say I noticed greater success compared to just dipping imported fish. You could also increase the temperature gradually, which may speed up the bacteria/parasite lifecycle. If you are worried about treatments harming your filter bacteria when you add the fish back in, you could run activated carbon in your filter but I don't think you need to worry about this. 
You may already but when you dip the fish I'd put the air stone from the tank into the bucket.


----------



## Hufsa

@ScareCrow thanks for the suggestions  
I think table salt (NaCl) is contraindicated for corydoras, some other catfish and scaleless fish, but Epsom Salt (MgSO4) might be okay. The knife fish are very sensitive to changes, so i may have to weigh the pros and cons of adding some extra Mg. Honestly I have never used salt for fish, so im not entirely sure what kind of salt people are talking about when they say "Add salt".

I had a bunch of oak leaves in the tank, but they got thrown out in the process of catching all the shrimp. I left just one big one as shelter. I figured it might be beneficial to have the tank a little bit "bare" for a while, to make sure the bottom stays clean, no dead fish in nooks and crannies and less places for parasites to dwell. I do have some alder cones in storage somewhere, I could add a few of those. 

Funny you should mention garlic, I did pick up Seachems Garlic Guard or whatsitcalled along with the medication. Its apparently useful to get fish to eat medicated foods and generally boost appetite. Interesting that there is controversy with regards to giving it to fish, ill want to look into that. I know that it has traditionally been given to horses to ward off bugs, but is actually not good for them and makes them slightly to moderately anemic. 

I would try pimping the food with garlic tonight, but I started the JBL Aradol this morning, and it says no food for 3 days. 
I have explained this and showed the instructions pamplet to several disgruntled denizens of the tank, but they were not very understanding.

Im quite torn about todays dip, the two smallest knives are not doing well and I have found one lying randomly on the sand earlier today in broad daylight. Not good at all. I thought it may have passed on, but when we went to gently nudge it, it startled before we could touch it, and scurried off into some plants. It laid motionless for a while there, breathing slowly before burying itself. I think I should just go with my gut instinct and skip todays dip. I dont think they are up for it.

At the other side of the house, the fan shrimp are greatly enjoying what we are calling "the holiday colony", or summer camp. In december 🤔

The female bamboo shrimp has found the current from the filter, and is going further and further up the branch every time we check on them.
Please excuse the highly fashionable cling film (TM) lid.




Even the male gabonensis shrimp is getting in on the flow, albeit in a slightly more secluded fashion.
The gabon shrimp are very shy and the female is nowhere to be seen. Which is impressive for such a small and relatively bare tank. She is always like this in the main tank as well.




The dwarf shrimp are "swarming", but its not just the males. If just the males are scurrying and flying around like this, it just means a female is ready to breed.
But this swarm has both genders. Im not sure why they are acting up like this, the most likely is either that they are hungry, or that they feel like they need to be somewhere else and are trying to find the way out. They have been fed twice, but obviously this small tank has much less surface area per shrimp, so maybe they are hungry still. Ill check the water parameters just after this post, to see if something is wrong there that is making them do this.


----------



## ScareCrow

@Hufsa the salt I was referring to is rock salt/sea salt or fish shops often sell 'aquarium salt' as a treatment, which is just expensive rock salt/sea salt. MgSO4 is another option as you say.
I think garlic helps to boost the immune system and appetite as you say. I believe the controversy around using it arose when companies started marketing it like it was medicated food. It was marketed in the marine hobby as a treatment for white spot / ich but in reality it was just boosting the immune system of the host, rather than targeting the infection.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


ScareCrow said:


> the salt I was referring to is rock salt/sea salt or fish shops often sell 'aquarium salt' as a treatment, which is just expensive rock salt/sea salt.


Salt (NaCl) is a non-starter for planted aquariums, because of the sodium (Na)content. Some people use a salt dip for external parasite etc., but it isn't a route I'd ever go down. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## ScareCrow

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Salt (NaCl) is a non-starter for planted aquariums, because of the sodium (Na)content. Some people use a salt dip for external parasite etc., but it isn't a route I'd ever go down.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Good point, you're quite right. I've only used it as an addition to chemical dip but I know people do use it in aquariums. As you say they probably weren't planted to begin with or certainly not after adding salt.


----------



## Hufsa

Just a quick post here as a note to myself, set up Jebao DP-4 autodoser today.
It will dose ferts daily for me. 
Will hopefully be very relaxing, knock on wood it behaves nicely. It was bought used and is apparently 2 years old.

Weekly amounts will be approximately 1/3 EI
10 NO3
1 PO4
10 K

Im running a temporary micro mix made with some left over solutions I had, im out of the dry goods, waiting on a package.
So it will be a little higher temporarily with 0.53 Fe weekly.
Where 0.182 is Fe EDTA + and various amounts of CSM+B traces, and 0.35 is Fe DTPA

Next micro mix im planning to bring it down to 0.3 Fe weekly.
Where 0.2 is Fe EDTA + traces, and 0.1 is Fe DTPA.


----------



## Hufsa

An update on my fish and especially the knives. The outlook is hopeful and moderately positive, for three of four knives.

The sad first though. I put the smallest knife to sleep two days ago.
Ive had some thoughts I wanted to say about it, but the words needed a few days to settle in my head.
I feel that its my duty as their keeper to call it quits, when the suffering seems greater than the potential for recovery.
And while I would like nothing more than for it to have continued fighting, I felt like it had had enough.
It had been laying sideways motionless on the sand, in full light all day.
One might try to argue that its more natural to let it die by itself.
But an aquarium is not nature, and it does not have birds or predatory fish that would have ended it.
Its a tough call but I think I made the right one.


Today I gave the knives a third antibiotic dip, to boost them a bit again. I gave them a break after the first two dips, just what my gut instinct told me.
This time, they were harder to catch with my hands and felt stronger when wriggling.
They were a bit more active in the bucket and didnt flop over on their sides.
After the dip all three were out and ate a good amount of bloodworms.
Today I gave them their bloodworms ~al natural~ as I havent noticed them eating any more when its got Garlic Guard on it.
It might not be anything to do with the effectiveness of the garlic, the bloodworms are not dry so they probably dont absorb much of it.

Im very encouraged to see them doing better. Theyre not out of the woods yet, and they are still flashing. But I have hope.

The Diflubenzuron seems to be a very slow acting agent, much much slower than Praziquantel.
Its mechanism of action is said to be inhibition of chitin formation, and then the parasites will die when attempting to molt.
But I have observed baby shrimp in the tank that escaped "the Rapture", and they have been suspiciously alive. I figured a few tiny tiny babies would be left in the tank, but I didnt expect to see them around this long. I saw one today, walking around like it was nobodys business. But I have seen one or two dead ones as well. So I guess it just takes a while.
I hope it kills parasites faster than it kills sensitive inbred shrimp.

I have not seen any of the other fish flashing for at least a few days. Just the knives.
I sincerely hope they continue doing better and we get out of this with no more losses.


The dwarf shrimp in the holiday colony settled down a few days ago as well, and they are no longer swarming around like crazy. I let out a big sigh of relief, as they were worrying me a lot the way they were acting. I didnt see much fan shrimp poop, which you wouldnt think was a problem. But it is. The water in the holiday colony has a lot less food particulates due to me just lightly feeding dwarf shrimp, and not feeding a bunch of fish. So the fan shrimp would have started to starve before long. So ive started target feeding them with spirulina powder.

The bamboo shrimp sits way out on a branch, but she does her best to hunker down when she senses us approaching the tank.



While she works on braving her shyness, I stir out some almost blue-green spirulina powder.



You can easily see the fans catching food particles. She holds them out in the flow, then brings them periodically to her mouth to lick them clean.
Before:



After:


----------



## Hufsa

I suppose another update is in order.

The sick fish situation is not cleared up yet.
Two more knives have been PTS since last post, suffering heavily from bacterial infections.
This leaves only the biggest one. Last I saw it it was only lightly red around the fins, but still flashing a bit.
Ive been away a few days for christmas and havent seen the big knife out looking for food yet tonight, but I did see a snout so he is alive.

The Diflubenzuron treatment was due for a third and final stage last wednesday, but I opted to change 90% of the water instead and go straight for my plan C, which is Flubendazole. The FBZ arrived a few days before and I was quite frankly real fed up with watching the Diflubenzuron do absolutely nothing. I dont understand why its been so ineffective, maybe there has been some interaction of some sort in my tank and that has rendered it inactive. I really have no idea. All I know is fish were not getting much better and I still have baby shrimp swimming around that should have died. You could explain the fish not getting better by wrong choice of medication, but a chitin inhibitor labeled dangerous to shrimp should kill shrimp in 2 weeks, right.. 

Ive also struggled with what I can only describe as a chronic Poop-nado ever since around the time the shrimp left for their holiday colony 💩
You know that weird movie with the tornado made of sharks, right? Just like that, except fish poop.
I would have gotten some gross and gory pictures for you guys, but to be quite honest I dont want anyone to see just how bad it has been.

This has left me even more bewildered than usual. Ive been wondering what has caused all this *#%@ crap to appear suddenly, but its probably a combination of factors.
Here follows my likely suspects for Poop-nado.
1. Shrimp eat fish poop. Makes it into smaller shrimp poops that are more easily carried away by the flow and broken down.
2. Arrival of big 'ol poopers. The four brown fishsticks and additional zebra otos are big eaters. They also poop what I can only describe as "lincoln logs" 🪵 
Sure, the other fish poop too, but in a much less obscene fashion.
3. I put more driftwood in, disturbing the flow in the tank. Im planning a "rescape" of sorts for when I move over to the new tank, and ive been adding wood and fiddling around a bit to see how I would like to have things oriented.

Hopefully I can solve the chronic Poop-nado before the rescape. If I cant have as much hardscape as id like, I really wanna know about it now, so I can plan ahead some and adjust my expectations. Id like to rehome the surplus pair of grey fishsticks, but cant until tank health is all clear. Same for the brown fishsticks, except I need to keep them onboard until they start showing some sexual dimorphism.

Ive changed around the filter outlet to see if it influences it, but have not really had any a-ha moments.
No spray bar, just plain open outlet creates a gentle flow and the crap stays all over the bottom of the tank.
Spray bar all along the back causes poop to lift up and get carried away by the flow. This will look like a great solution until you realise that the flow then deposits the poop all over your plants.
Now im trying out a left side mounted spray bar. I also pulled out a fair bit of wood because I was desperate and really wanted to stop looking at poop.
Ive been siphoning out large turd clusters all day and for at least 30 minutes I had a clean slate to work from. Ill never take the clean look for granted again. But, if its anything like the last times ive siphoned it out, it will be right back tomorrow morning.
Im also putting the fish on a very restricted diet.

Since I dont want Darrel to be disappointed in me, the lincoln logs are not allowed to enter the canister filter.
They just get stuck on the inlet mesh where I can remove it periodically.
The way I see it, just sweeping it under the rug (into the filter), wont really solve Poop-nado, it will just be somewhere else, using up all the filter oxygen and giving me even bigger problems. Im starting to wonder if ive had this amount of poop all along, and that the shrimp have just helped keep it hidden from me. If so, I should really practice on limiting my feeding.....

Time will tell. And to everyone reading this, sorry for saying poop 100 times.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Since I dont want Darrel to be disappointed in me, the lincoln logs are not allowed to enter the canister filter.


Thank you.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

I suppose the plants should also get a little update while im at it.
The Hygrophila and Nesaea stunted right before I changed over to the auto doser. I dont know of anyone else who is able to stunt Hygrophila. 
Im not sure if im proud of this or not. Im a standout in my area of expertise, but my area of expertise is torturing plants  

Any how, since I switched over to the auto doser, I figured I would play it cool and let things settle for a few weeks. The Hygrophila is growing again now, so thats good. Im not sure if the Nesaea will unstunt, we will see. I realise I throw the word stunt around a lot, but I dont really know of any better way to describe it. First some really weird looking growth and then growth stops entirely. In the past weeks I also noted a decline, and then increase in green thread algae. Impossible to say why since so much stuff was going on at the same time. I also saw a decrease and then increase in BBA. Its probably a good thing im not scared of algae. Eventually I would like to master growing plants well while growing minimal amounts of algae, but im not in a huge rush to get there.

Im thinking of giving the current levels of ferts one more week before I want to try to decrease the dose a bit, especially of micros. EI seems to be working great for those nosebleed high tech tanks, but so far I havent had such great results with it for low tech. I may be doing it wrong though, im fully aware of that. But at this point I would like to try some other approaches instead of trying to chase just one method.

I wanna see if theres anything to the old theories of BBA ~ high nitrates, and green thread algae ~ too much iron or phosphate or whatever it is they say.

Ive also seen noticeable amounts of pinholes in old leaves before they decay, and found that quite exciting. Havent killed plants this way before (that I know of)  This appeared around the same time as the plants stunted. I seem to remember pinholes in old leaves possibly being related to K / potassium. However im not gonna get hung up on that. Nutrient tunnel vision is a real thing and I like to imagine I have gotten over that stage of newbie-ness. Besides, I think we can all agree at this point that a lot of my issues stem from my consistency deficiency 😁 So working on that will be a better fix, and I can fiddle with the small details such as exact K levels much much later.



 

 


BBA, thread algae and a sprinkling of other assorted algae




Pinholes on older leaves with yellowing around the holes. Once the pinholes reach a certain amount the leaves seem to decline rapidly and the inhabitants start eating the leaves. Hence you will also see mechanical damage on some of them.




Unstunted tips, with the kinda weird leaves right below. The weird leaves have a bluer shade of green and are more intricate than they normally are.



 






Poor Nesaea stem  You can really tell in this picture how much a suffering plant attracts algae. I also find interesting the sideways curved leaves a bit down the stem. This symptom I know ive had before. I think it was in Staurogyne repens last time. The sideways curving leaves seem to be a precursor to more severe symptoms. Thats just a theory tho. Sideways / horizontal curving, and then vertical curving with increasing mangling, before the growing tip stops entirely.


Poop-nado is gonna steal a little bit of the limelight of this post as well, here is what I woke up to this morning 💩💩💩




I have apparently successfully set up the flow in such a way that it all gathers here in this neat spot nearby the filter intake.
Much of this poop is a dark brown color, a color that none of my fishfood is. I am assuming that lighter tan colored poops and reddish poops are less digested poops containing more fishfood. So that would make the majority of this turd pile fairly highly digested and stripped of nutrients, no? This dark kind of poop I associate with algae eaters. Maybe its not so bad after all? Maybe someone wants to chime in on the percieved quality of my poop collection 

Quick and dirty on various fry and breeding going on; all fry has passed away, either from medication or from lack of food / difficulty raising. I did remove all the leaf litter in the tank. Grey fishstick dad is already working on a new batch, so thats ok. Also pygmy corys are laying eggs as of today. Fun times ahead once tank is stable and fish are not sick any more. Looking forward to that 😊

Finishing off with a bonus picture of one of the poopsticks.



Its not so easy to see but they are growing nicely and their bodies are also broader than they were when I got them.


----------



## X3NiTH

Hufsa said:


> Maybe someone wants to chime in on the percieved quality of my poop collection



Same colour as the Bogwood so it’s on the menu!


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## Hufsa

@X3NiTH you are absolutely right, I see it now. Theyre eating the wood  





Thats not too bad then, the poop should be mostly wood scrapings?
I thought only the panaques and such ate wood, but I guess a lot of smaller suckermouths do too, just in smaller quantities.
As far as I understand they arent too interested in the wood itself, but the things that grow / live on it.






Ive been thinking about how I want to have my new tank set up. I havent been happy with how my current tank looks in ages, algae issues aside. It doesnt help that im a bit of a perfectionist, and it tends to get in the way of the artistic side of things. Ive had some of my driftwood facing branches upwards for a while now and can confirm that its not my taste. The plants just end up drowning out all the branches and youll end up lucky if you can see just a few tips of the woods sticking out of the plantmass. I want to feature the wood more, have it more visible while still having some space to plant. Preferably in the locations where the wood is least attractive.

I found a few pics of my current tank when I first set it up, I havent shared them before because I am a bit embarrassed by them. They dont look great but they show kind of which style I want to go with. I also want to keep at least a small amount of leaf litter because I think it looks really nice and the fish love it. Also great for shrimp and fry. I am planning to get some malaysian trumpet snails to help keep the leaf litter gently oxygenated and prevent any completely stagnant areas.




This was the first iteration, I got two pretty nice pieces of wood and plopped them into the tank without much changes on them. Then I planted them up in a total hurry and didnt consider that I placed the anubias over a lot of nice wood parts and when they theoretically grew in, they would cover up all the wood. It also needed a lot more plants. The mossy caves didnt fit in at all either.





The second iteration was more thought out, but here my perfectionism overtook the look. The wood has been sawed and trimmed up, and small details added. But the overall lines of the layout turned totally artificial and the curves are too orderly and neat. In addition there is no hardscape above the mid height of the tank so it looks empty and weird.





Which brings us to the present date.
I got two new much larger pieces of wood and had a little play around with them in the storage room.
So this is just a temporary mock-up.





Its not possible to tell in the picture, but the hardscape is much taller this time and with epiphytes on top of the wood, should reach up to the waters surface without much trouble. Im not planning to bank the substrate (sand still), so the wood is placed at an angle and im looking to fill the dark areas under the wood with smaller roots and leaf litter, so that you wont be able to see the sand meet the back glass. The two big pieces of wood go right against each other in the middle, which maybe looks a bit crowded, but I think also helps it not get that "two seperate islands" look again. I would like it to have more of a continous riverbank look this time.

If you guys have any suggestions or see any glaring problems be sure to let me know! I can also take a picture with just the two main pieces of wood, so you can see the bare minimum, if that is needed. In this picture I had already placed out a few other bits of wood to fill out parts and provide more surfaces for planting.




This is a -very beautiful- rough splodge drawing of where I figure the plants can go without detracting too much from the look. Obviously subject to change this one as well  The rest of the sand will be covered with leaf litter. I can probably shove anubias into the areas that are too dark for anything else to grow in.


----------



## Hufsa

Four weeks since switching to the auto doser, and the doser is behaving nicely. Hear it running at expected times. Should probably recheck the calibration just to be sure its dosing the right amounts, but otherwise im fairly content and confident with it.

Plant growth has been very poor, hygrophila difformis is barely growing, very small leaves. I got some guppy grass (najas guadalupensis) as a passenger with a fish a while back and the little sprigs have barely put on any size. My floating bush of Hydrocotyle tripartita is strangely yellow pale, but not in new leaves, all the leaves.. 🤔

I have been mentally preparing to switch to Tropicas dosing, just wanted to give the plants a fourth week before I made any changes. The plan was to reduce overall ferts down to Tropica Specialized levels, aka NO3 from 10 ppm weekly to ~7,12, PO4 from 1 to 0.37 etc.

The main differences as far as I see it are PO4 and Fe (iron) levels. Approximately 1/3 of the phosphate and 1/3 to 1/5 of the iron.
Especially reducing the iron from the kinda high 0.53 ppm weekly to 0.08 I think will be a very interesting change to make.
These two are usually blamed for algae growth, maybe there is something to it after all?

Ive been diligently following the EI advice ive been given, but time to try something new now, I hope people wont take it personally 🙂
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. "
May be a silly quote but there is something to it.

But the current poor plant growth is giving me pause. I mean, algae is at an all time high, but previously when I had lots of algae growth, I also had (mostly) good plant growth. Or at least -better- plant growth than what im having right now.
Hydrocotyle pale all over could be lack of nitrogen. Same with Hygrophila absorbing all its old leaves. They might have gotten a bit more nitrate when I was dosing manually.

So with that in mind, maybe I can still try Tropica Specialized dosing, just twice the normal amount.
So weekly amounts ~14 ppm NO3,  0.7 ppm PO4,  9 ppm K.
A true Tropica Specialized clone would have only ~2.4 K, because it uses Urea as a nitrogen source.
But I dont feel like going down that route right now, so theres a slightly higher amount of K, that is added by the KNO3 and KH2PO4.
Not planning to add any K2SO4 though.

That would make the changes to PO4 and Fe less significant, but eh.. Plants dont lie, only sometimes its hard to know what they are telling us.
But right now plants are not real happy.
Getting good plant growth is priority one, making algae less happy is secondary.

Will write a bit more about the fish and stuff later, also planning a plant order to get some new plants to tortur - i mean, fresh blood, err.. healthy plantmass in.
Got my eyes on a few quick growers, just need to have my LFS stock them for me.

Note; as im reading over my post I realise I could also try doubling my current dosage of 1/3 EI to 2/3 EI, algae might go mad, might not, would also be an interesting thing to see. So that is something to consider also 🤔 Wouldnt know which one to pick next though. Appreciate any input


----------



## Hufsa

I slept on it a bit, and made the following changes. Doubling macros to 20-2-20 and I adjusted my light down from 30% to 10%. Its finally starting to look slightly dimmer in the tank. Maybe the Fluval 3.0 is more powerful than people give it credit for? I might even go down to 5% if I get better results but still some algae, but that is a consideration to make only after in 4+ weeks. Have written it down both in my physical journal and now here, so I know what I have done and when.

Every now and then I come back and read through my journal, to see what I have done before, what grew well when, etc. 
I feel that every time I do, I see the whole picture a little bit more clearly. So plants and algae grew nothing with no ferts. Plants and algae grew mostly great with full EI, aside from running into some lack of CO2 issues. My T8 tubes were hard to adjust lighting strength on, and the Fluval I have had at 100% (lots of GTA), at 50%, and now at 30%. But 10% is new. So lets try that.

I have given some thought to the plant growers I envy so much, the newbies with a tank chock full of fish, stock lighting and no CO2. They dont know the names of most of their plants, but are throwing out plants by the bucketful every trim. They are obviously doing something right.
So they have a tank full of fish that make a lot of nutrients. dont change water often and certainly not much (removing ferts), and they have weak light. Hmmmmmm.

I can still try to reduce phosphates and iron and all that jazz down the road if I want to, its just simpler to try this change first, because then I wont have to make up a new batch of macros with different ratios. And there is the sneaking suspicion that light driven lack of CO2 has been the elephant in the room for a good while. I suspect its deceptively easy to underestimate the strength of your light. Maybe everyone who reads this thread already know this and are just letting me get on with my stubborn ways, that would almost be cruel  But maybe I deserve it.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> adjusted my light down from 30% to 10%. Its finally starting to look slightly dimmer in the tank. Maybe the Fluval 3.0 is more powerful than people give it credit for?


I'd be a bit worried about this, my guess is that it isn't the lamp, it is your eyes, they are very good at adjusting through several orders of magnitude of light intensity. If the light looks dimmer you probably aren't getting anywhere near the <"Light Compensation Point for photosynthesis"> for any of the plants.

Even if you have some daylight at the moment (I don't know how far N. you live) it will be <"incredibly dim"> and your eyes adjust to this.

Example below is our solar panels in the (relatively) bright and sunny S. of England, Jan 4th 2021 I'd describe the day as "_bright but cloudy_", we have had much greyer days.






cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> I'd be a bit worried about this



I can understand your concern Darrel, and ill make sure to monitor the plants very closely. If they look to be suffering more than they are currently I can turn it right on up again. I just feel like I need to try this.

If its any comfort, the bolbitis that was placed in the shrimp holiday colony is growing and putting out lots of leaves. This is despite being lit by a dinky little IKEA desk lamp. And there we are -really- talking dimly lit mood lighting. So hopefully it will be ok. Its still fairly bright in the main tank, just not quite as much.


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> algae is at an all time high, but previously when I had lots of algae growth, I also had (mostly) good plant growth. Or at least -better- plant growth than what im having right now.


You have no idea about how reassured that makes me feel.  Also


Hufsa said:


> the newbies with a tank chock full of fish, stock lighting and no CO2. They dont know the names of most of their plants, but are throwing out plants by the bucketful every trim. They are obviously doing something right.
> So they have a tank full of fish that make a lot of nutrients. dont change water often and certainly not much (removing ferts), and they have weak light. Hmmmmmm.


I feel I am squarely in that category.  But I also feel it's deceptive.  In my low tech tank everything happens reeealllly slllooowwwllly.  So It's only now, 18 weeks in, that I'm hitting my first major algae problem.  Up until week 17 I had mostly happy plants and no algae.  In week 18 I have looked at the tank and suddenly realised that (1) half my plants aren't doing anything (2) the other half are doing great but are covered in algae which is doing even better and (3) the overall result is my tank looks completely imbalanced.  Like a bloke with a 6-month untrimmed lockdown beard wearing lycra cycling shorts.  So when you look at all those noob tanks just think to yourself "wait until week 18, noob!"  



Hufsa said:


> Doubling macros to 20-2-20 and I adjusted my light down from 30% to 10%.


Doubling your dose given your previous experience logged earlier in this thread seems sensible, but doing it at the same time as reducing lighting to 10% will mean that if you are successful you won't know which to attribute success to .  Not that I'm any better.  I've just removed all my lighting fades, reduced the amount I'm feeding fishes, and switched iron chelate all at once.  Hey ho.

Cheers,

  Simon


----------



## Hufsa

Karmicnull said:


> You have no idea about how reassured that makes me feel.


Oh you are so welcome 😊 If my algae growing skills help (or comfort) just one other person, I will feel so much better about all my troubles.



Karmicnull said:


> Doubling your dose given your previous experience logged earlier in this thread seems sensible, but doing it at the same time as reducing lighting to 10% will mean that if you are successful you won't know which to attribute success to .  Not that I'm any better.  I've just removed all my lighting fades, reduced the amount I'm feeding fishes, and switched iron chelate all at once.  Hey ho.



Definitely true, I should probably not tell anyone I also wanted to reduce micros, but then came slightly to my senses later and went with just the two other big changes. "Hey ho", as you say indeed!  

I have read in so many places "Dont change too much at once, you wont know what fixed it and when its fixed you wont dare change anything in fear ruining your tank!"
Well the thing is, those people severely underestimate both my general stupidity and my curious tendencies 😂 Coupled with a more than healthy fondness for "SCIENCE! WOO", theres a good chance im gonna try to re-ruin things if I ever get things running good, just so I can know exactly how things work. Sometimes just the call of the void is enough. "Do the thiiiing. Ssssssee what happens" 😁


----------



## Hufsa

Posting a few things here just for the record. 

Auto doser doses micros in the morning and the macros 12 hours later. Aka not alternate day dosing. Since I am intimately familiar with how iron deficiency looks, I set it up like this because I was too lazy to fiddle with the doser to get it to dose alternate days, and I figure the plants will let me know eventually if they arent getting any iron.

I also want to note down that I am feeling increased whisperings from the dark side. Yes, that dark side. Ive even looked up what a big tank of CO2 costs on a few occasions. I honestly have no doubt right now that a steady 5-10 ppm of CO2 would make my life much much easier. 

The only thing keeping me from it right now is plain old stubbornness, and simply because I want to be able say that I did it without. So there, ive said it. Maybe im attempting to do things in the hardest possible way, but then so be it.





Also happy to see and read about other methods, especially with the latest postings. If I dont get anywhere with the few things I have already decided I want to try out, they give me several more options for experimentation, and Im very thankful for it. All this pondering over algae is giving me grey hairs and sore grey cells.


----------



## ScareCrow

I seem to be going through the same struggle. I didn't see the point in starting a journal of my own just so we could compete at who had the worst growth. So I've been following your journal and really enjoy reading your updates. Years ago I had a low tech tank that was really simple to maintain and grew _hygrophila polysperma_ 'sunset' no problem at all. Not much of a boast but I think it is one of the nicest stem plants. Since moving house and in turn water supply, plants just sit there regardless of dosing or not. I keep coming back to CO² availability.


----------



## Hufsa

ScareCrow said:


> I didn't see the point in starting a journal of my own


I would definitely like to see a journal from you, the more the better imo especially for us low tech folks. 
I think we can learn from each other, and then we might take less time overall getting a hang of things.
When I read from some of the posters on here, I find myself wishing they had a journal so I could see what their method is. They write very intriguing things, doing things differently than the norm, and I would love to see more. Maybe I should just ask them. But wouldnt want to be rude. Hm

Happy to hear you are enjoying the read. Sometimes I feel like im writing alone and for no ones benefit, but to hear that people are following along is encouraging 

I wanna get my hands on some Hygrophila polysperma, it seems like a good fast grower and is smaller in width than Hygrophila difformis, I think.
I dont really like the Rosanervig variety so much, it looks just a bit off to me. So ive been keeping an eye out for the plain green version and now I have requested it specifically from my LFS. So hope to have it soon-ventually.

I think when one is having plant issues one -needs- at least one kind of fast growing plant. I dont really think it matters what kind, duckweed index is probably best with amazon frogbit, but since I cant keep any floaters alive ive resorted to stems. Not sure if my issues keeping floaters alive are due to flow, gourami predation or just my general skill at killing things. Maybe a combination.
But the fast growing plant will let you know that things are going sideways way before your slow growers do. And I think its best not to let things go so far sideways that the slow growers are badly affected. Because then there is a much longer road back.


----------



## ScareCrow

Hopefully you'll have better luck with H.polysperma than I am currently, I think it's a really nice and often overlooked 'easy' stem plant.


Hufsa said:


> Happy to hear you are enjoying the read. Sometimes I feel like im writing alone and for no ones benefit, but to hear that people are following along is encouraging


Yeah, please keep going with the updates, they're informative and entertaining.
I'm also struggling with floating plants but think it's flow related. The needle leaf java fern is the fastest growing plant in the tank to give some perspective. I do have a number of emersed plants that are doing well, which makes me think it's not nutrients that are the limiting factor but instead CO². Having searched and searched (I even posted on here) for the answer, there's no reason H.polysperma shouldn't grow, it seems to be a weed for everyone else.


----------



## Hufsa

ScareCrow said:


> ..emersed plants that are doing well


How many emersed plants do you have? I believe I read that sometimes they are so effective growers that they starve the underwater plants. Essentially outcompeting them. There is a journal on here that I think had some struggles with it, let me find it..
Toms Poco Pozo


----------



## ScareCrow

Thanks, I think I might have read it but I'll give it a(nother) read. I've gone through so many threads trying to find an answer that I've lost track.
It was one of the things I thought might be happening. I'm waiting on some batteries for my tds meter to be delivered, so I can check tds at the start and end of the week to get a rough idea of what is going on.


----------



## Hufsa

Today has been a bit of a trainwreck (again). Im kinda embarrassed to post all my mistakes here, but I think it redeems the situation just slightly if it helps someone else not do the same things.

So day before yesterday I switched out the two big roots in the tank with the two new roots ive been playing with. The fish were looking a bit unhappy with how bare the tank was, and I figured they might as well start soaking, that way they wont float later on. Ive had fungus on fresh redmoor before, but it has been managable and not too bad. Not this time though.

Yesterday I woke up to cloudy water. Ok I thought, no need to panic, while I havent had much issues with cloudy water before I knew its not as dangerous as it looks and should pass in a few days once balance is restored. I made sure the skimmer was running well and the filter intake was not clogged up with anything. All the fish seemed very happy with the new decor, the boraras were swimming through the overhanging branches, the stick fish were all over the wood and the corys were enjoying all the shaded spots underneath.

Today I woke up and the water was no longer cloudy. Sweet I thought, that passed quickly. But giving it a second look, all the fish were breathing very rapidly. The otos were hanging on the glass and looking unhappy, alongside the Sturisoma. I quickly pulled out the test kit and immediately saw there was a clear reading for nitrite, 0.05. Not the kind of readings ive had issues with before, where its like, is there, is there not a reading, what color IS this exactly. But no, very clear 0.05. I didnt even wait for the required 5 minutes to pass, and just started draining the tank immediately.
They got a 80-90% water change and are breathing a bit better now. Im getting up early tomorrow morning to test again and see how things are. No food until things are settled.

I removed both roots from the tank. It may have been okay to leave them and do daily water changes for a while, but I was not feeling like risking any of my fish again, and so out they went.

I will have to figure out some other way of "cycling" them before putting them in with the fish. I think I might soak them in a big container and then maybe add one at a time once they stop being slimy and gross and the tank is healthy again, but even that feels dangerous right now. Before when ive soaked roots seperately, they have ended up grosser than normal and very stinky, maybe because of a lack of oxygen or beneficial stuff in the container or something else. And its not so tempting to add a stinky root to your tank.

I felt like the filter wasnt putting out as much water as it usually does, and I decided to crack it open as well to check on it. This was definitely the right move as the prefilter sponge was absolutely heavy with slime and really hard to clean. It seems to have taken the brunt of the impact and the rest of the sponges felt ok. It all smelled nice and earthy still, for those of us who are thinking of the smell incident from before. I left the rest of the media in peace, keeping in mind that I wouldnt want to disturb the archaea+bacteria right now.

I hope the fish will make it out of this as well, there is seemingly no end to all the trials I end up putting them through  A lot of my Rineloricaria fry has passed away throughout the day, they are very sensitive. The only little comfort I have is that I still see some Corydoras pygmaeus fry swimming about. I believe cory fry are hardier than whiptail fry, so that makes sense.
Having removed the cause of the ammonia/nitrite spike, im hopeful that the tank will get back to normal soon..


----------



## Hufsa

Early this morning nitrite measured a more vague 0.025 or less, good stuff.
The fish got another large water change either way but it seems the train is somewhat back on track.

I went out to the LFS and picked up some plants, one of them planned and some of them not so planned.
I got large stems of Myriophyllum mattogrossense, Myriophyllum tuberculatum, Proserpinaca palustris and Nesaea crassicaulis. They were really cheap so I figured id give them a try. The Proserpinaca is probably the hardest one, havent tried it before.

I got a lot of small shoots of Hygrophila polysperma green, this one I had at the top of my wishlist so very happy I got it.

Mixed in with the polysperma shoots were a bunch of little water lettuce plants, which I thought was a real bonus.
I havent tried this floater before.
My goal in life is to kill one of every kind of plant. Just kidding. But it will be nice to try it.
I also got a cup of invitro frogbit. I know I swore it off for good last time, but this time is the last time, honest 
The water lettuce was meticulously inspected for pests, they didnt have many roots so that made it easier. I didnt feel like they would tolerate a chemical dip with their delicate peach fuzz hairs. After getting an all clear they were placed into protective custody in the main tank with the frogbit. This setup is hopefully gourami proof.





I also got a cup of invitro pinnatifida, all the big boys are killing this plant and I wanna get in on that action. I try to give plants I buy a good squint before buying, especially invitro cups, but I should have squinted harder at this one. I thought all the leaves were just brown colored, but as I took it out of the pot 95% of the leaves fell off the plant. They were not brown colored, they were completely wilted 😅 Oops..
Left behind were a few bits of stem and some very puny looking pink white shoots. I carefully split the pot in two and they have been gently attached to each their rock.

The way I figure it, this is a win win situation.
If I do get this to survive and grow, I will immediately take position as the _alpha_ of the pinnatifida growers, and everyone will look to me on how to grow this plant.
And if it dies, which it probably will, no one will think anything of it, as I had such poor odds 





I got an invitro cup of Blyxa japonica, think this is part of Tropicas recent limited edition run. The shrimp used to love it, and Ive been missing it ever since I killed it off so..
One more try. Im trying out a new thing, which is planting into pots. Ive ordered some in glass, but for now plastic will do.
I have a bad habit of moving stuff around a lot, which bothers all my rooted plants.
So maybe this will make it easier on them? We shall see.
I gave them some slightly coarser sand as well, for oxygenation.
I can bury the pots in the sand later, but for now they are just sat ontop of the sand. I plan to plant the stems this way too.





Also got a loose portion of supposed susswassertang, that looks really weird to me.
It has a lot of little bits growing out of it, it may be trying to turn back into a fern? Idk, I need to read up on it a bit more.

Im really glad Im running quarantine on everything now, including plants (but excluding invitro), as I found honest to god ****ing leeches in the susswassertang.
Not planaria, not rhabdocoela but sideways wriggling gross leeches.
Now ive had quite enough of "Hufsa TM unpleasant surprises", so I dont need this kind of negativity in my life.
I like detritus worms and little flea things, I tolerate rhabdocoela purely on the basis that they are not planaria but also hard to get rid of, but leeches?
*No.*

I performed my very first potassium permanganate dip on the four bunches of stems mentioned above. I didnt like it much. The recipe I found was very vague and didnt say how much to add. Just "dark pink". That could mean anything. So im not sure if I did it right, I may have overdosed. Usually I realise im doing something stupid AFTER ive already done it, but this time I managed in a moment of uncharacteristic clarity to start having doubts about half way through. I decided not to dip the rest of the plants until ive done some more reading. The nuked stems are resting in a bucket with clean water and a lot of Prime, and I figure if they are going to die on me then its better they do it in the bucket than in the tank.

Just because it cheers me up, a picture of a little corydoras pygmaeus fry.




Ill finish off with one of the grey fishsticks. Hes mad at me for removing all the wood, and also the caves.
I just want them to stop breeding for one gosh dang second while I take care of all the other stuff.

He has buried himself in protest.


----------



## Hufsa

Todays nitrite reading is either 0 or the closest one to it. Fish are breathing like normal and no fish on the glass 

The nuked stems seem to have survived overnight, with minor damages. It has been hardest on the Proserpinaca.
I found some more recipes for the PP dip, these with actual mg per liter, and I reckon my dip was off by a few magnitudes in the strong direction 
So if the plants survive this it must be a pretty gentle dip. At least as far as chemical dips go.

I looked over the stems for snail eggs, as I found some gel lumps that may be or have previously been egg clusters.
After that I rinsed them a few more times and bunched them up with filter floss and ceramic rings, and plonked them in the tank.
Two of the species are classified as medium or difficult to grow, the Proserpinaca and the red myrio, but ill give them a shot.
There was a limited selection in all the stores, and I was mostly thinking I wanted some sort of growing tips to take up nutrients from the spike.
Right now I feel like my plant selection looks like it has a mild case of collectoritis, but I dont need to keep all of these species long term.
I wanna see what I can grow, what I like the look of and what I have room for in the end.

My tank looks like a disaster, with no hardscape, a bunch of epiphytes fastened to pebbles with plant wire and general disarray.
As long as the water quality is good I dont mind.
The fish are still not getting fed, and you would think I was also starving my SO.
He and the fish inquire regularly about when the feeding will resume. Im thinking a few crumbs tomorrow.

There has been no increase in algae so far after doubling macros. Possibly less algae. Its early days so too early to conclude anything. I think light intensity has been the most meaningful change, the macro increase were mostly to see if I could get the Hygrophila difformis growing a bit faster and bigger again.
The Hydrocotyle tripartita was planted in the sand a few days ago to make it less confused, since the floating plant ball tumbled around the tank a lot and the plant had to figure out which way was up on a continually changing daily basis. It is looking greener all over than before and I think its putting out new leaves.
Ill snap some pictures tomorrow but now the lights are off.

Ive reduced the velocity of water from the spray bar some, and the fish look more comfortable.
The cory pygmaeus continue laying a few eggs each day.


----------



## Hufsa

As promised a picture of the tank from today. 

The "Floating Plant Containment Facility" was moved to the back wall just to be -slightly- less intrusive. 
This morning I discovered a breach in containment, of the unexpected sort. 
Somehow, one of the Boraras had gotten in there!?  
It must have jumped in, I cant see any other way. Little houdinis they are. 
Maybe my SO was right to insist the skimmer be covered from aerial entry.. 
I forgot to take a picture of the little burglar before fishing him out, my apologies.

Apologies for the cloudly water in the photo, I had just added some No Planaria.
I managed to introduce limpets into my tank again with one of the batches of rhizome plants from a while ago.
Up until then I had been looking over plants manually for snails and eggs, but when I discovered the java fern disease I think I forgot about the snails, and thats how they must have got in.
Ive tried to talk myself into keeping them but they look too much like zits and crawl on the glass a lot, so I want to get rid of them 😉
Flubendazole is supposed to kill all snails but three straight weeks of the stuff hasnt seemed to bother these guys.
Ive used No Planaria to kill these little buggers before but I remember they were the absolute last ones to die and it was a struggle. 
I dont remember if I had to overdose or not, and that time I didnt have fish in the tank either. So will need to be very careful about how I do this.
Theres not a huge lot of them yet, but ive prepared some water change water and will be monitoring daily to make sure any die-off doesnt cause a spike. 
Lord knows theres been enough of that.

Back when I moved the shrimp out to the holiday colony, I also started another "secret" project.. 
Culturing detritus worms 😅 



Back then I was just about to start the treatment with the chitin inhibitor, and I couldnt stand the thought of not having any detritus worms or little fleas left after. 
I didnt know if the treatment would affect them or not, so to be on the safe side I got a sample of critters from the bottom of my filter bucket, and have been feeding their colony ever since. As it turns out Diflubenzuron doesnt kill my species of detritus worm, but I had no way to know that at the time.

Theres a ton of them in there now, not just the detritus worms and the upside down mickey mouse looking fleas either, I discovered I had rhabdocoela in my assembly as well. Initially I was not so pleased as I thought they were planaria, but I have microscope photos confirming the ID of "not planaria". 
My knee jerk reaction to them were of course "lets get rid of em", but with these guys I have managed to talk sense into myself.
They have obviously been a part of the critter fauna all along, and it seems like maybe some of the fish eat them or they are competed down to a minimal level, since I never saw them before. So I reckon once they go back in the main tank they will return to non bothersome levels. And if the fish eat them they are a valuable food source.
Secondly, it also seems like they are hard to kill so its not for certain I would be able to get rid of them even if I wanted to. Check-mate said the little things 

My plan is to eventually add all these critters to the leaf litter in the new 250 liter tank. Ive been toying with the idea of running the 250 liter tank for a little bit before moving over the fish, just so the critters have time to make it down into the leaf litter / sand and hide away a bit. A lot of them will probably be eaten at first, but im hoping enough of them can squirrel away to be able to sustain a population there. I think it would be a really good food source for my fry.

I was gonna write about something else but cant remember what it was, so this will do for today


----------



## Hufsa

A part of my cheeky potted plant plan is trying out some Tropica soil in the bottom of the pots. That should give root feeders a boost, and I figure it is worth trying out, as one 3 liter bag of Tropica soil powder is cheaper than continually replacing plants I manage to kill or put in a coma.
I dont think it will be a miracle fix but if it contributes to survival then worth a shot?
I read that even the Tropica soil can put out some ammonia at first, so I have a portion of it sitting in a bucket of water, and I am changing the water daily.

I almost felt like I couldnt call myself a simple peasant any more, as I was carrying the fancy bag of magical black spheres home from the store.
But based on how bad I am at handling soil, I dont have to worry about my standing. This stuff is dirty and dusty and I dont even know.
How does anyone manage to deal with this nasty uncooperative stuff? I have to resist the urge to treat it like really dirty gravel and wash the heck out of it, I think it may be dissolving more the more I disturb it. This is my first experience with soil if it wasnt very obvious.
Just emptying and carefully(ish) refilling the soaking bucket seems to offend the black spheres. I hope some of it will be left by the end of the week.
The glass jars from Ikea are due to arrive around then, and I plan to carefully persuade the soil into the pots, cap them with some sand/gravel and more permanently plant the stems that are currently held in place by filter wool and ceramic rings.




(Picture courtesy of Ikea)

The glasses from Ikea are 6 cm tall and I reckon this should be a good size to plant in. I contemplated covering the outside of them in aquarium silicone and then rolling them in sand, but I think I wont bother with this right now. I dont even know if this will work long term. If it doesnt, I guess I will have no shortage of little glasses to put marmalade in at breakfast.


Ive had more issues with my Ultramax 2000 filter again, and was fast approaching a point where I wanted to throw it out the window. Conveniently for the filter, around that time it stopped the worst of the misbehaving and now only gurgles disobediently every now and then. Given the critical nature of the filter I really dont want to have any doubts about its reliability. I think it has given me a case of Ultramax Stockholm syndrome, as every time I look at other filters I keep comparing it to the LPH, filter volume and normally* ease of use of the Ultramax. But if its gonna need an hour of fiddling to get going (and struggle with air for two days) after every maintenance session, then not even its nice specs will save it.

To complicate things, I hear that my old favorite the Eheim filters are no longer what they used to be, and so I am looking around for used older models that may be able to fill the void in my heart. Or I would have to take a chance on one of the newer series. I really dont know what to do..


----------



## Hufsa

As I was out driving today I couldnt resist stopping by my two favorite LFS' and getting just a few more plants.
Just as a disclaimer I had a mask on and observed all the local rules as I normally do 
Having a decent sized plantmass with some more fast growers feels very much like a safety net.
Where I will find room for all these plants in my new "scape" is a problem for future me and not something present me is overly concerned with.

One of my LFS rarely has plants but when they do they tend to have rarer species and the plants are always very cheap.
When you buy plants you tend to get everything else in the shop along as a hitchhiker, both good and bad.
The second one is my main plant source and gets plants from Tropica every week. They have decent prices as well and less "critters" in their plant tanks.

From the first I got another bunch of green Myriophyllum and some Salvinia, LFS said maybe sp minima.
A very big portion of strange looking "Limnophila", I asked for sessiliflora but this is the strangest sessiliflora I have ever seen.
There may have been some misunderstanding, maybe I got Limnophila aquatica instead.
Its green and looks like a vigorous grower so I will give it a try anyway.
It looked like it was -thriving- in the plant tank of the LFS, which I have never really seen any plant do 
Most plants suffer a slow death in plant holding tanks. The plant fills me with respect and awe.. Maybe I have brought a monster home..

From the second LFS a pot of Ludwigia Super Red and some actual L. sessiliflora.
Ive stunted so many bunches of Super Red, I feel bad for them  There was that one time I actually got it growing kinda nicely..
If I hadnt documented it with a picture in this journal I probably never would have believed it myself. I havent felt very skilled lately.
Unfortunately for this poor species its one of the few red plants I really like so im gonna keep trying to grow it.
At least the plant growers at Tropica will be able to feed their families for a while longer.

The shop informed me they are finally getting some Hemianthus micranthemoides in on thursday, a plant I have been pestering them about.
Depending on who you ask it is either the easiest plant to grow ever or impossible to keep alive. Intriguing 🤔
Since I kill every "easy" rotala I look at but had pretty good luck with more difficult Pogostemon helferi, I wanna give it a go to see.

All these plants need to be dipped in PP first, so wont be added to the tank for a little bit still.
There was a huge amount of critters living in the Limnophila from shop 1, some I definitely dont want but a few interesting things.
Mainly some little round greenish flea things that I cant say I have seen in my own tank before.
Being kinda weird as I am, I got a pipette and carefully extracted the ones I could find.
They are slightly bigger than the (I assume) copepod species I have in my culture, and I thought they looked like they would make a tasty addition to my assembly of little things. They are currently living in a little plastic cup along with some wormy things, while I try to find out what they are and if they will be granted asylum.

They had a lot of planaria with them, which I disposed of with great prejudice.
I dont want to accidentally introduce planaria or leeches to my critter culture, so they will have to be quarantined 😅
Ill ask my SO if he cant take some handheld microscope pictures of them tomorrow, maybe I can get a proper ID.


----------



## Hufsa

I didnt get around to asking for any microscope pictures yet, but from some googling im fairly sure the new mystery fleas are ostracods.
Im not sure if ill add these to my culture, seems like they dont make great food for fish because of their hard outer shell.

Today saw the final additions to my plant shopping spree.
Two pots of very emersed grown Hemianthus micranthemoides, or as I have recently learned, its actually Hemianthus glomeratus.
According to the flowgrow database, micranthemoides is a misapplied name from a species that is likely extinct.
Im hoping they will take off and do well, those who get it to grow nicely get these super dense thickets of it, and I think my shrimp would absolutely love it.




 


I bought five purple apple/mystery snails today, just for fun really. They are not the best algae eaters but are cool pets and very decorative. Ive had them before. The seller gave me two with shell damage, which im kinda miffed about. Hopefully they will heal eventually, but they will always have the scar.
They of course had to go in the holiday colony tank, as the main tank is currently not very hospitable to snails.
I hope they behave themselves like they've done for me in the past, and dont eat my plants. I will be monitoring 





A few days ago I got a starter population of malaysian trumpet snails, as I have planned for my future leaf litter. Also in the holiday tank.
One of them is a really beautiful brown chunk, I think it may be a species of Thiara. Im hoping it gets lots of babies ☺️ The standard MTS have not had the best life, some of them have very transparent shells. But their children should have better living conditions with me.




The filter shrimp are really enjoying life and the two gabon shrimp have started coming out more and more.




Back in the main tank the Rineloricaria are still angry at me for lack of driftwood, and skulk about demonstratively all day.




The pitiful Pinnatifida is showing some very faint green shoots. It may survive actually, color me surprised 




Hygrophila difformis still looking kinda strange but growing. Maybe it needs some time to pick up speed, like a steam locomotive.




Hiding among the roots, a weird green sprig of what I think is maybe some sort of Urticularia?
Ive found a few of these sprigs in amongst the new stems and they are not wanted. I pulled it out right after this picture.


It was about time to get all the plants I had sitting in buckets dipped and put in the tank. I had been procrastinating a bit.
Second last plant to plant, the Salvinia minima came from a tank chock full of riccia.
I read about Zeus' recent adventures with this pest, and decided I didnt want to introduce it to mine.
The plants first got their dip and then I had to dunk them in a series of buckets to dislodge all the tiny riccia pieces, for each individual floater.
It was even more tedious than it sounds.
I was fast running out of f- err.. cares to give, and then I remembered I still had the monstrous Limnophila thing to plant.
I impatiently wrangled up some of the ends of it, and shoved them into a plastic cup filled with gravel. After adding a good amount I walked satisfied over to the tank with the pot and plopped it in. The accursed Limnophila species stayed in the pot for about 2 seconds before rocketing out of the cup, and I could have sworn the stems were giving me the middle finger on their way up through the water column. "Great!, the stems are extremely buoyant...." I said, "cheerfully".
Having just about had enough of this plant at this point, I angrily shoved the stems into the sand in the back of the tank and dared them to come loose.
It can stay there until it learns to behave. Half my mind wishes this plant doesnt make it. The other half is willing to entertain the first halfs idea.
This must be Limnophila aquatica or something else. Not sessiliflora. It doesnt look right at all. And it even smells different, this one smells weirdly of cucumbers.
As mentioned its buoyant as all get out, and it also seems to have a purple hue at the tips.

Having run totally out of cares to give for today, I then put on my favorite slippers, finally sat down in a chair with a cool drink, and looked forward to watching people argue about Zinc on a forum


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> and I could have sworn the stems were giving me the middle finger on their way up through the water column


That made me laugh out loud!  When I checked my tank today only two stems were floating about in the current.  Much better than usual!  I'm negotiating with the family to carve out time for a major prune this weekend so next week I'm expecting it will be carnage in the water column .


----------



## Hufsa

Little glass pots from Ikea arrived today, the package had been banged up a bit but ironically only a plastic storage container I had ordered at the same time was broken, all the glass was fine 😅

Tank got a 75% water change to clear out the No Planaria, sad to say after 3 days of first day dosing levels limpets are still perfectly fine. I dont know how much of this palm extract stuff the fish can tolerate, nor do I want to experiment to find out, so will try a new slightly meaner approach. Got some Esha Gastropex, and plan to dose it in a few days once the Prime has deactivated in my water. Im not thrilled to dose a copper based remedy, but based on what I read online fish are absolutely fine with it and some people dose it with shrimp as well. I would remove my shrimp before treatment if they werent already out, but thats just me.

Some people report fish deaths or tank wipes from it, but I think those people do not understand what hundreds of rotting snail corpses does to a tank. And id suspect most people use this remedy after they already have a large amount of snails. So its not the remedy killing things its the huge ammonia/nitrite spike caused by all the dead snails. Since I have just a few small limpets to get rid of, and will do some substrate hoovering once its done, I reckon ill be fine. The limpets are still at such low levels that I had trouble knowing if the No Planaria had worked or not, as I couldnt find any. But finally saw one yesterday.

Spent a good part of the afternoon planting some of the plants into the pots, the water in the bucket of soil tested absolutely zero for ammonia so it was all clear and ready to go. The many little shoots of Hygrophila polysperma I got had until now been floating around in the tank, and formed some sort of flotilla with the floaters. I wanted to get them planted asap as I find curly stems super annoying to work with and they were getting curlier by the day.

Next up was the Hemianthus glomeratus / Pearlweed, this plant had already straightened out and reoriented itself from its temporary placement in the sand yesterday, which I found impressive. We might have a future winner here 

The Hydrocotyle tripartita also got potted because they were taking up a lot of room in the sand and it will be nice to have them all gathered up and easy to move.

Then I did one pot of Ludwigia palustris Super Red and transferred one batch of Blyxa from a plastic cup with gravel to a glass cup with soil and gravel cap.
The Blyxa already looked like it had been spreading its leaves a bit and it had made some new roots, I was very encouraged by this.
I was a bit sad to disturb it again so soon when it was growing, but I want to see what the difference will be with one pot of Blyxa with soil and one without.
Ideally I would have had the glass pots and soil ready before I got all the plants, but things arent normally that well planned out when I do it so thats how it ended up.

All the pots were placed back in the tank, it suddenly turned very into a pot-scape and not biotope style at all like im planning towards, but I think the pots are a good thing for the time being.
Im trying to nail down this plant growing business, and I do move rooted plants around too much. At least I have done that so far because I dont know where I want things.
With the upcoming tank move it also makes perfect sense to have them in easily moved pots. Eventually I figure I can wean myself off the pots 

Battleplan right now:
Step 1: Grow plants well.
This step seems to be well underway. Floaters look happy, Najas is growing a lot (this was my duckweed index before I bought floaters again).
Most new plants seem to be sending out roots and growing a bit too.
Step 2: Grow plants well in pots without soil.
Soil is considered extra faffing and I want a low level of faffing in my tank.
I want to do this step without killing off any plants, as I dont like having to buy new plants all the time. Trying to be environmentally friendly and all.
So might need to split up groups of plants, so if the moved group die I have a backup.
Step 3: Grow plants well without pots in sand.
Preferably without moving them around every week. Planning and impulse control? How do you spell that? 

Somewhere in there is Step B: Grow algae poorly.
We will see about this one. Will probably be the hardest one.
Throwing copious amounts of ferts into a tank and changing water isnt exactly rocket science (ie grow plants well *ish).
Finding some sort of balance where algae isnt also super happy is the tricky part I suspect.

I took some pictures of my plants and pots after planting, but when I got on the computer I saw they were all super blurry.. Tired after planting I guess 😄
So will try to get some better ones for you all tomorrow. Still have some stems left to plant, planning to do that tomorrow as well. Then everything should be set for a while, and I can wait for things to grow and then see what I can adjust.


----------



## Hufsa

Just caught an apple snail quite happily chowing down on some Salvina, despite them getting an extra large breakfast this morning.
I knew this was a risk and I guess it didnt work out this time around. Not mad at the little guy, its in his nature after all.
Posted them up for free at a local site so they can get a new home with less plants. Unfortunately I need all of mine 😅
Shame but thats life sometimes 😉







The MTS will hopefully stay off the plants


----------



## Hufsa

Took some pictures of the tank and plants today, a bit late but better late than never? 
I would like to say that 95% of them came out blurry because we have an infestation of little gnomes that come at night and smear vaseline on my camera lens, instead of my arms not being quite right these days and being too shaky, but that would be very dishonest of me.

I tried picking out the best ones but some are a bit out of focus. You may have to squint a bit 





In all its potted glory. It looks about as far from a natural creek filled with leaf litter as you can get at the moment  But im telling myself its temporary. Also the fish dont seem to care one bit. Well, not about the aesthetics of it anyway. If fish want a shady spot they dont care if its an amazingly natural bit of wood, a meticulously scaped plant or a fake plastic bridge. As long as they feel safe in there its all the same to them. So most of my fish are entirely indifferent to potscape, except the Rineloricaria who are still mad about the lack of wood and caves. Ill try to make them some PVC caves of suitable length within a weeks time, so they can get jiggy with it again. That should make them happy. The clay caves I had I think were too short so the eggs ended up partly outside.




Hemianthus wilting / melting a bit I think. Not much I can do about it so im just waiting and seeing how it does.
Blyxa looking really good so far.




Tripartita still recovering from being thrown around, but putting out new shoots and generally doing alright.




Pinnatifida still growing!  Even despite me accidentally breaking off a few tips 
I think this speaks more to the resilience and will to live of this particular plant rather than my impressive skills.
This plant looked like it needed to be in the ICU, and my tank is more like the dumpster behind the ICU, that is also sometimes on fire.



 


These are my susswassertang nuggets. I imagine they will look like strange alien eggs for quite a while to come, until they grow out into a more natural poof of tang.




H. polysperma looking nice and green. I think one of the stick fish has thrashed around in one pot as I found a few bits floating around one morning.




Proserpinaca took the Ultra Strong PP dip the hardest, a lot of the leaves and the tips had melted but theres new growing tips and it is putting out roots.




Nesaea in the back left looks a bit confused. Hasnt grown a lot but we'll see.
L. super red infront of it hasnt been here as long but has rotated towards the light at least.
Everything happens so slowly in low tech, which is great when you just want things to run themselves for a while, but torture when youre wanting results by the hour on adjustments you make.
Both the Myrios have taken the dip well and are growing nicely, the green one probably the most which makes sense.




Here is the infamous Limnophila satanicus var. 'Floaty', which is probably (if im being real) L. aquatica or at least sessiliflora on steroids.




One of the tiny limpets, looking super innocent because they kinda are.




The Corydoras pygmaeus have been so busy laying eggs they barely have time to eat.
I was wondering why I wasnt seeing any eggs but they are just really good at hiding them and lay only one at a time. Ive spotted a few now, they seem happy with all the new plant options for egg laying. Some happy Najas out of focus around it.

Thats all for today. Most of this plant growth wasnt done by me but its useful to have a baseline to compare growth to, I should think.


----------



## Hufsa

A week has passed since everything got planted, and I figure it is time for an update. I thought it had been more like two weeks but apparently not 😅
I gotta say, theres been a good amount of growing (in my uneducated opinion) for such low light levels and no CO2.
Algae growth has also been at an all time low 

I didnt mention it but shortly before the last post I discovered what horrible spread the Fluval 3.0 had on my tank when it was sitting so close to the waters surface.
The prompt for me to notice this was the very long stems of red Myrio.
They were completely unlit as they were approaching the surface at the back of the tank.
Since I was wanting to give everything a real good chance, I concluded that this had to change.
Fortunately for me I had another Fluval 3.0 sitting around in the hallway waiting on being used for the 250 liter upgrade tank, since that one is wider.
The first light was just attached to the underside of the hood with some double sided tape. But unfortunately, the hood is too narrow to fit two light bars.
After some hemming, hawing, and a fair bit of DIY, starring some aluminium floor trim cuttings and a puzzled hardware store employee, I had a sliding mount system for the old tank and could use both lights.





Since I had just effectively doubled my light output again, I set both light bars to 5%, and thats the intensity thats been running all week.

Ive had some adventures with copper overdosing thanks to Esha Gastropex in the week thats passed (see seperate thread if youre curious), so I will be understanding if any plants feel like sulking a little bit forward.
So far only the floaters have shown any obvious signs. And when I say signs I mean ~30% of the floaters have melted.
Yes ladies and gentlemen, if anyone should be able to melt floaters it would of course be yours truly.
Im just guessing that its the copper that did them in, it could be something else.
I fished out most of the rotted bits today. It looks to me like there may be more die-off though, some of the leaves on the remaining floaters look a bit iffy.





There is still a colony of good looking frogbit and salvinia in the shrimp tank, and I fished out my few dwarf lettuce plants from the main tank and put them in there as well to ensure their species' survival.




Hygrophila polysperma has put on some mass and is sending roots down in the pot.




Nesaea crassicaulis in the middle looks to have recovered from the extra strong PP dip and has grown quite a few new sets of leaves.
They have been in slightly varying shades of greenish yellow, yellow, and pink, but I think this is because the plant needs to settle down still.
H. difformis to the left was some really abused stems when I put it in a pot, so im happy to see a little bit of growth on it as well.




Myrio mattogrossense I think has grown the most, it looks very happy and im happy to see what looks like short internode distances.




Proserpinaca has been shedding old leaves but is putting out new growth too.
Had to take the picture from above, otherwise the tips look white like this:



I read almost everywhere that you should pinch off suffering leaves because then the plant will only use energy on new growth.
But when I do this it feels like the plant grows worse than before.
I did hear someone (Cory from Co-op) on youtube say the opposite, that in low tech plants should be allowed to keep all their leaves until they let them go themselves.
Maybe theres a difference between low and high tech here?
Similar to Jurjis cryptocoryne tip of cutting off all the emersed leaves, that this can work in high tech but is a bad idea for low tech.
Since im a bit curious about this I pinched the bad leaves off two of the Proserpinaca stems, but left them on the others. Maybe ill be able to tell a difference.




Limnophila aquatica(?) again lots of growth.
Its getting prettier and less monstrous as it grows out in my conditions. The old leaves have turned a bit yellowed and shabby. I hate it slightly less now.



At the bottom you can see the two hideous PVC caves I made for my homeless Rineloricaria. They hate them. I dont know if its the size (32 mm diameter), the look of it or that its open on both sides, but they havent given them as much as a passing glance. All the other fish have checked them out, and decided that they are only good for resting on top of. Ill take them out later and try something else I guess 🙄




The plant I think I am most excited about right now, Blyxa 
Just look at that, so green and not-dying looking 😁 I feel like its put on a fair bit of weight since last week.




Hemianthus still putting out round leaves, some old leaves wilting. I think it needs some more time to adapt and settle.
But it has put out lots of "air" roots that are a bit hard to see in the picture, and is creeping sideways. So far im just happy to see it alive 




Limnophila sessiliflora. This one looked pale at the tops in the store, and the LFS said the shipment had come in cold and the plants looked a bit sorry.
Since planting the old tops hadnt done anything, but each stem had grown a new top at the side. I pinched off the old tops to let the new ones have more light and room.




My eternal nemesis, Ludwigia super red. Im not so sure about this one. Its doing.. something. It is the real test for sure.
Once I can grow this plant nicely, AND replant it without it dying, I shall consider my plant growing skills truly leveled up, and may put up my feet for a bit and be happy about what ive accomplised so far.




Some sad 'Narrow' leaf Java fern I could have sworn used to have more BBA on it.
I have not trimmed off any leaves on this plant. The BBA almost looks a bit reddish grey and unhappy (Could it be!?) 
Above the tuft of BBA on the lower right, it looks like the BBA has been munched off.
I think my goblins (Sturisoma / brown fishsticks) have eaten it.
I have had an Eheim autofeeder set up and feeding the fish since christmas.
Strangely enough the Eheim feeder is a much more conservative feeder than me, and keeps the portions nice and small.




The goblins have grudgingly resorted to eating some algae between feedings.


----------



## Hufsa

Quick little update this morning while I wait for the tank lights to come on.
Theres a mini feeling of christmas morning when I get up early and can catch the lights in the tank come on and see the fish eating the first meal of the day.
They are so happy and cheerful and it makes me happy in turn. Its a good start to the day.
Theres not a lot of people I could explain this feeling to without sounding crazy but I know you guys will understand 😊

Finally got around to fishing out the PVC caves yesterday, first one was empty but I found the second one had an occupant and he was guarding eggs. So I guess my caves were acceptable after all 

I have skipped over this news but if you are reading between the lines of my posts then it will probably not be a surprise.
The last knifefish didnt make it over christmas sadly.
I tried my absolute best but such is life, sometimes things just dont work out.

I am quite happy with my current stock so I will stick with them and see if I cant get some fry growing up soon.
I havent seen any pygmaeus fry lately despite them continually laying eggs. Some eggs have looked unfertilized but im still a bit puzzled as to why I cant see any hatchlings around.
It might be an effect of the copper fiascos or maybe something else. Theres not a lot of hiding places or excess food right now either.

I have increased food amounts a bit, Sturisoma were a little bit on the slender side for my comfort, and I was concerned the Rineloricaria were not getting much food at all.
They are quite slow to come out to eat, unlike the Sturisoma.
Its hard to describe how it looks when a stick is speedwalking but the Sturisoma really hustle along once they smell the food.
Their bodies are so rigid, they look ridiculous and adorable.
Its probably still a good thing to start out low on food and then increase as needed, instead of the other way around.
I doubled the amount the feeder is dispensing per meal, and they are still getting 3 meals spread over the day.
If this doubling is a bit much I can reduce the lunch or remove it completely.
Even doubled its still a fairly moderate amount compared to what tends to happen when I feed manually.

Plant growth is still pretty good, will take pictures once I have lights.
I think the Hemianthus is not glomeratus/micranthemoides, its not developing any oblong leaves at all and really wants to creep. It could be M. umbrosum or something similar?
There was some confusion at the fish store when I bought it, they had ordered H. micranthemoides but a lot of their plant order didnt arrive, and the pots in question were unlabelled so we were just guessing they might be the plant I was after.
Im not looking to keep any of the "traditional" carpeting plants, im a bit brutish in this area and dont like little fiddly plants with a million pieces.
I feel like carpet plants are needy little things that take away too much bottom surface from my fish.
So if I can get a positive ID on these I might throw them out. Could put them in the holiday colony I guess for the shrimp to hide in.
Although I doubt the plant will like it there if its not thriving in the main tank.

There are still limpet snails in the tank and ive had some hard talks with myself. I cant really defend continuing to dose various chemicals into the tank risking all my fish over and over just to kill off a few little snails. I dont like how they look but thats just my own personal vanity and isnt more important than the safety of the fish. Flubendazole hasnt worked, NoPlanaria hasnt worked, not to mention any of the medications before christmas. And Copper is just a bad freakin idea with the wildly different toxicity levels. 1/8 dose of Gastropex might in theory be safe for my tank but there would be only one way to find out, and I am worried about permanently injuring my fish from all these treatments.
So the limpets win for now.
I am already culturing the malaysian trumpet snail population in the holiday tank, so there will be snails in the tank anyway.


----------



## Hufsa

Gratuitous plant pictures inbound. 
Im sure you are all positively chomping at the bit to see the two and a half leaves I have grown since last week  
I was chiding myself over the pointlessness of the plant updates but I think they can actually be useful in a way. 
When I doubled my macros a few weeks ago and eagerly sat down to watch the plants grow, it struck me that I didnt really know what sort of growth speed I could expect from low tech. 
30 ppm CO2 is said to be "turned up to eleven", plants will grow 2 cm just when you turn your back, that kind of deal. 
But what about low tech? I didnt even have a ballpark because I havent watched closely before. 
And so now being able to look back on the growth I have had each week gives me something to go by.

Im gonna start out with the Blyxa because I just like this plant a lot. 
It has a great color, the shrimp love it and people say it doesnt grow well without CO2 so I want to prove them wrong. 
What more do you need 😁
Limnophila thicket behind got the first trim since planting, replanted the tops and discarded the bottoms to get ahead of 1000 tiny old leaves dropping off and floating around the tank.



Since I dont have Pogostemon helferi at the moment (the best iron deficiency canary plant imo), the tops of the Blyxa will let me know things are good for iron.
If you get pinkish white straw looking shoots then you know what to do.






H. tripartita still looks a bit scruffy. Its got a lot of old leaves of various colors and the old stems have BBA on them so I guess I cant hold that against it.
The new shoots look green enough so I guess I will just have to be patient. Not a strong side of mine.




Hemianthus / Micranthemoides sp what ? Grateful if someone can ID this. If not I can post for a plant ID seperately.




All top down shots are taken with tank filter turned off temporarily. Otherwise it would be impossible to see clearly through the surface agitation. 
I find the top down shots a lot easier to get into focus and showing more accurate colors so I quite like them for that.







Hygrophila polysperma seems to have some veining thing going on, I didnt notice this until I looked at the photos. Maybe a little bit of Rosanervig in them?
They are a lighter green than the H. difformis, not sure if thats species related or just that the polysperma shoots were very small and maybe dont have as much green built up yet?
Hygrophila pinnatifida is still not a raging beast on their little pebbles  Between me accidentally knocking off a few shoots and the Sturisoma knocking off a lot more, theres just a few shoots left. And I think the plant is running out of reserves. The stems and roots are very mushy. Will probably be pushing up daisies soon.







Nesaea looking decent. behind it Ludwigia super red hidden partly in the glare is not looking as great, more brown tops than last time I had it. That may be down to the lowered light.




Proserpinaca palustris has shed most of the old leaves now.

The boraras seem to be thriving these days and have colored up a lot. I tried to get a picture of one but even the best one isnt exactly great. Looks like it was taken from orbit around the earth and zoomed in.



Even if I cant properly show it I am happy to see them look more at home. The males have started to claim small temporary territories around the tank.
I am wondering if the group I have is very light on females as I cant clearly identify any. But not all the fish are taking territories either.
They should be even happier once I have the tank more filled out with plants and hardscape that go into the upper areas of the tank.

Right after the photos I got out some of my Peasant TM kitchen scissors and went to town on all the java ferns.
They had a lot of crusty old leaves in various states of decay. Unlike stem plants, I have noticed a clear benefit to pruning off crappy leaves from java fern. 
As long as youre fertilising plenty then pruning will let new shoots get light and room and the plant will hurry up a bit to grow them out. 
It makes them look much nicer much faster than if the plant does it on its own.

I also discovered where the pygmy corys have been putting the results of their continous egglaying activities.
The java ferns are apparently a highly favored egg laying spot. 
Which was kinda inconvenient for me right now. Its not like I could have left the plants alone for a week and let all the eggs hatch out either, because they lay every single day so they would likely just replace the hatched eggs with new ones. They also lay only one at a time so I had a heck of a time trying to find most of them and put them back in the tank. 
I think I managed to find most of the about ~20 eggs, not a bad production from these little guys. I just dropped them back into the tank this time around. 

Im more interested in survival of fry in the main tank as a measure of general tank health than I am of maximising pygmy cory production. 
Now if they were C. hastatus or even oto eggs things would be very different. Breeding my zebra otos is one of my pipe dreams. Maybe one day ill be able to 🤤


----------



## ScareCrow

I think you may have ended up with _Micranthemum Umbrosum _instead of _Hemianthus micranthemoides. _I found this video while trying to identify which species was the smaller leaved. However, if you look at tropicas website they state that _Micranthemum Umbrosum _is easier to grow but from what I've seen in peoples tanks _Hemianthus micranthemoides _is easy to grow. As the information was conflicting everywhere I looked when I was thinking of getting this plant, I gave up. I really like the look of the smaller leaved variety and if it is easy to grow I'd like some but until I see some for sell on here or in person I think I'll give it a miss.
The flowgrow.de website have another couple of species named, of those I think _Hemianthus glomeratus _is what I (and possibly you) were actually looking for. Below are links to the species listed on flowgrow.de:

_Micranthemum Umbrosum_
_Hemianthus micranthemoides_
_Hemianthus glomeratus_
Hemianthus sp. "Amano Pearl Grass"


----------



## Hufsa

ScareCrow said:


> I think you may have ended up with _Micranthemum Umbrosum _instead of _Hemianthus micranthemoides._


Yeah this is my working theory as well

I missed a couple of plants in yesterdays update, so I grabbed photos of them today to have on record.

Thread algae has picked up a little bit in growth, its no longer quite as minimal as I had hoped it would be.
The level of algae that a person can tolerate while still being happy with their tank obviously varies greatly from person to person, and two weeks ago it was where I had it at acceptable levels.
Now it is slightly above what I like, which is a bummer. I think the thread algae just needed time to increase in size, and the reason I had less two weeks ago was mostly because I removed most while replanting everything. Less light means plants grow slower but would also mean green algae grows slower. Makes sense to me at least.
So its not likely that I have solved the underlying green thread algae problem, only slowed the growth down.

Most of it is located in the Hydrocotyle tripartita. Theres a fair bit of old unhealthy growth on this plant and there was a ton of thread algae in it when I replanted it, so it makes sense to me that this is where the GTA would reappear. I tried to get most of it out when replanting but it was very difficult work and I was getting tired so I only got about 80%.
But, I dont really want to fight algae, I want my tank to fight algae and for algae to decide to live somewhere else 
So I could be spot dosing and meticulously pulling out every thread I see every day, but im not gonna do that. I wanna get the cause, mostly because of laziness.

I could replant just the new fresh bits of H. tripartita. Would mean throwing out most of the plant but hmm.




In the back of the photo is Myriophyllum tuberculatum, its not super happy. Shedding a lot of leaves and not growing much. Tips look small and weird.
Could be light is too low for it, or something else. Im not hell-bent on keeping this plant long term so its not a big deal either way.

L. Super Red has wavy leaf margins, which I think it has always had with me. Searching for this symptom yields results from anything between lack of calcium, excess this'n that, to lack of flying pigs.
So I dont really have a clue what causes it. According to some experts its supposed to have flat leaves. You can see the emersed grown leaves are flat which aligns with those statements.
My Najas is also growing leaves with strongly wavy margins which im 90% sure its not supposed to do either. I didnt think it was possible to make Najas unhappy, with its reputation.

I wanna see if I can get them to stop growing like this, and im thinking of reducing my iron+trace dosing to be more in line with Tropica levels.
Why Tropica specifically? Well, almost everyone knows theres a whole jungle out there of different ferts, all claiming to be the bees knees.
But I figure since Tropica has quite literally grown and provided the absolute majority of the plants in my tank, theirs will be a good place to start.
I also want to change macro ratio from EI to double Tropica, but for the sake of experimentation I will only change traces first and see how it does for some weeks.
Question is if I should go for standard dose Tropica trace levels 0.08 Fe, or double dose 0.17 to keep it in line with the planned macro change.
I think ill likely do the latter unless someone tells me otherwise.




Green myrio still happy like before, has grown even more. This one is next to need trimming.
Im a bit torn, you can see a male boraras chilling in the plant being pleased with his little territory, and if I trim it down too much that will disappear.
Maybe I can trim it just a bit without taking too much.
This is starting to remind me why I threw out most of my stems a while back, partly because id halfway killed them (nevermind that ), but the other part is that they take so much work.
Theyre always way too short, or perfect length for just one week, and then too long and start shading other plants.


----------



## Hufsa

The sunday plant growth update is a little bit delayed, for no good reason really. I keep saying to myself ill take pictures once the sun goes down and the reflections from the windows are less prominent, but then I procrastinate too much and suddenly the tank lights are off and all the plants have closed up for the night. This may or may not have happened several times 🤭
So instead of plant pictures I will ramble on about some random things.

08/02/21 I halved the micro dose because im impatient and havent changed something in what feels like forever 
After a lot of headscratching, deciphering of incomplete notes and some help from the spiffy new IFC calculator, I figured out what my old dosing was including the traces.
Old dose was a total of 0.532 Fe, which I think is excessively excessive for low tech.
0.35 of it was Fe DTPA. The rest is AquaPlantsCare UK EDTA chelated traces, which contained;
Fe     0.182
Mn   0.047
B      0.033
Zn    0.009
Cu    0.002
Mo   0.0014

I dont know what copper levels my tap has, and ive been grumbling a lot about it.
Copper may be a red herring, but im still annoyed by the issues I have with the shrimp.
When I first moved them to the holiday colony I had deaths all the time but gradually they slowed and now there have been no deaths for several weeks.
Up until this sunday I had only topped up the shrimp tank when needed, with a bucket of water with no remineraliser and plenty of Prime.
Ideally they would get topped up with demineralised store water but there is a lot of evaporation and im a bit stingy.. 
So I hadnt purposefully taken any water out of their tank until now.

But they got a 30% water change on sunday, and like clockwork next morning there was a dead adult shrimp waiting for me. It was a really lovely deep blue colored female as well 
I want to test this further, really get to the bottom of it.
Next sunday I will do another 30% change, but with demineralised water reconstituted to be exactly the same KH and GH of my normal tap waterchange water. That should tell me something about if there are problematic parts of my tapwater. And if that doesnt do it, sunday after that I will try tap water as normal but dripping it in very slowly.
If that one works then the problems are more likely to be TDS based.
I dont want this last one to work. If the last one works I will either have to live with weekly shrimp deaths of my prime breeding stock, or start doing drip water changes on the main tank, which will be a huge pain in the ass. I dont know how long it takes to do a 50% waterchange on a 180-250 liter tank when refilling 2 drops a second, but I dont imagine it will be extremely swift.
The plants will start drying out and ugh it will just be a pain. Has to be some other way surely.

Maybe if I can reduce the TDS swing further between tank water and change water I can still do it the quick and dirty way 🤔
KH and GH is identical now that I remineralise in the blue barrel, but maybe the ferts..
EI is all about excess of course. So we intentionally want to overshoot the target. But, lets say my plants need 1, and im providing them with 2. If I could slowly shave the dosing down to 1.2, then it will still be excess, just slightly less overkill. And maybe less TDS swings.

A second thing I have been thinking about completely seperately from the shrimp issue, is frontloading some macros on waterchange.
I was thinking about it to avoid having so little in the water at the start of the week but it could work in the shrimps favor as well.
If I dose these in the blue barrel then I could further reduce the TDS swing. But the swing is only from about 160 to 120.




This picture is how I imagine I look right now.
But I want to get past the shrimp problem and go back to breeding and selling hundreds of the little boogers to fund all my other aquarium stuff 🦐💸

So yeah, micro dose is half now, but im gathering the salts to be able to make a custom mix, partly for freedom of experimentation and partly because I kinda like all this stuff.
I want to go down to total 0.1 Fe weekly, maybe even less. I could start even lower and go up with overall traces when I start to see chlorosis, it would probably be faster than going down from excess.

I want to experiment with the macros as well, but I need to wait until I see what the L. Super Red does on this dosing of macros. I gotta see if it still stunts on replanting.
If it still does it then it really has to be a lack of carbon for rebuilding that gets it so upset when its disturbed.
Im just trying to work around the CO2 because im stubborn and I want to do things my way even if all evidence points to it being the absolutely hardest way.
Maybe ill never get this plant figured out with low tech, and I should just give up. But wheres the fun in that?

On my way home from a meeting today I accidentally found myself in a petstore, and what did my little greedy paws find;
Finally, real Hemianthus glomeratus  This one was not umbrosum, it had done some growing in the store and there was no mistake.
It came home with me together with a very sad little buce I found in a forgotten corner.
The little plastic tab was so coated in algae the store clerk had to scratch the algae off to see which variety it was.
Sp 'Red' from Tropica, looking kinda sorry. But, it was fully converted to growing underwater after being forgotten for so long, and I felt sympathy for it, so I decided to bring it home as well.
Ive wanted to try Buce for a while, but I only want to buy propagated plants and not wild caught due to ethical concerns.
Its probably also a good idea to start with a cheap and common one incase it implodes.
Before my fishkeeping hiatus, buce was not a thing here, so imagine my surprise when I came back to the hobby and saw all these weird plants.

I didnt want to do a PP dip on the Pearlweed nor the anubias cousin known for melting, so as a sort of halfway quarantine they were added to the holiday colony.
I figure if the plants bring in something bad I can fish out the shrimp and treat the tank.

I couldnt see any pests other than some Physella / Bladder snails.
Since I lost the battle with the limpet snails, I have decided I might as well have some pest snails.
The bladder snails are the pest snail I like the best, well, after the MTS.
Maybe if im lucky they will outcompete the limpets. I hope they will also help the shrimp keep things clean.
Before I added the Bladder snails to the tanks, I put them all in a little cup with no food and a cory egg. Their morals had to be tested before final asylum could be granted.
I returned later to check on the subjects, only to find them making their way down the kitchen countertop in search of some grub. The cory egg was untouched.
I added them to the main tank, hoping that I wont regret it. They can get to work eating dead leaves while the shrimp are away.


----------



## Hufsa

Snapped some quick and dirty (blurry and watermarked) plant pics today 
Skipped sundays waterchange, I wasnt feeling great and I think the tank will be just fine.
Nitrates have been sitting at a fairly steady ~15 ppm ** before waterchanges lately, so skipping one should only build to about 30 ppm, which is within my personal tolerance level. **Readings were taken with a test kit so all usual disclaimers apply. TDS has been very stable and minimal as well.




Have had some necrosis on some of the java ferns, so much for me saying trimming them is fine lol.
I dont know for sure it was the trim that has caused it but the timing lines up exactly.
Its been gradual and not all at once, worst affected is the trident, then windelow. Dont think ive seen any on the narrow leaf.
The ferns have been practicing social distancing since mid-week incase it was contagious melt, but it hasnt slowed it.

This is something very different to when the ferns decide to get rid of old leaves which happens very slowly over a few weeks.
When they do that they start at the tips and the leaf gradually loses the green as the plants withdraw all the useful stuff from it.
The resulting dead leaf is opaque and warm brown or yellow.

Whats going on now is much faster than that, almost overnight.
It doesnt necessarily start at the tips and results in translucent greyish-brown leaves, sometimes with green patches still on the leaf.




The red myrio was slowly starting to put out new tips when it got a bit wrecked overnight. I suspect one of the Sturisoma got into the pot and trashed around a bit breaking some stems. I replanted the whole bunch.
As you will see some of the pots have changed locations.
I like the ability to do this without replanting things, so that part of planting in pots is really nice.
Perhaps if I could camouflage them more they would look less tacky.
Some of the soil has started to come up already, Im really not in love with soil at all. I mean it has its uses, it just looks like that use is not in my tanks.
I have been unable to tell any difference in plant growth with or without soil. I suspect it doesnt matter if youre not doing a lean water column fertilization.





Group shot with Hygrophila difformis, Hygrophila polysperma, Limnophila sessiliflora and Hemianthus glomeratus / Pearlweed.
The difformis is slowly recovering, its not full difformis size yet, and a few of the tops are making solid (non-pinnate?) leaves. I dont know what that is about, all I know is that its done it before. I think ive only seen it when its experiencing change or is trying to recover, so maybe its just a bit confused.

In the two polysperma pots many of the tops started showing Rosanervig-like variegation, which is not what I want. I wanted this plant so I could replace the very large growing difformis, and I wanted a plain green leaf plant that would show deficiencies well and grow fast. I pulled out all the visibly variegated tops and threw them in the shrimp tank. Theres not many left and I see some more are gonna have to be removed too. Looks like I will have to repurchase this plant to get polysperma green / not rosanervig.
So annoying when I ask for a plant, ask to make sure its not the kind I dont want, and yet still end up with the wrong plant. Ugh.

Sessiliflora finally starting to take off after its slow start. Cant fault it for a bad journey, it just needed some time.

The pearlweed got its own pot as well, it floated in the shrimp tank for a few days before I planted it in this pot of only sand.
I was too lazy to wash some of the coarser sand so I just grabbed some from the tank 😅 Too early to say how it does.




Myrio green got the tallest tops cut off and replanted in the pot a little while ago. The tops that didnt get touched are almost at the water surface already so will need a new trim soon. I might make it into two pots to get some height in the tank and to please the Boraras.

The spraybar all along the back of the tank has returned. Using the left side mounted spray bar meant that I had to throttle the filter too much, and I noticed a change in the consistency of the brown gunk in the canister when doing maintenance. The gunk was longer, stringier and a bit more slimy. I dont really want to throttle the flow through the filter at all. I drilled extra holes in parts of the spraybar, and the filter is now running on max without blasting my fish. But I think I also need to drill more holes in the remaining part now that I have the leaf litter in the tank. Its blowing the leaves up and towards the back, so they settle in the plants instead of lying on the bottom. A decrease in flow might not be ideal for the stems in the back, but fortunately for me this is a fishtank with plants and not a planttank with fish 

I have no doubts that a full length back spray bar is the best way to get even flow in a dutch style tank or a tank with minimal hardscape.
Once a lot of hardscape enters into the equation you can throw out the rulebook. In those cases I really think you need to see what works for the individual setup.




Nesaea growing slowly but surely. Its letting go of some of the older leaves but not at an alarming rate.
Proserpinaca mostly the same, a few of the stems have been melting at the bottom and floating around the tank, and I have shoved them back in the pot again.
My plan is to let it hit the water surface before I replant it, to avoid removing too much of the plantmass.




Super red has been doing better, theres some red in the dominant tops, and the leaves are not too curly and weird.
It has started to let a lot of its older leaves go, but I find that it always does this a few weeks after planting in my tank. Usually this prompts me to replant the nicer non shedding tops, and then it stunts immediately. So I will grin and bear the pink leaves all over my tank, and try to let it grow larger before disturbing it this time.




Blyxa still seems happy, I didnt feel like it had visibly grown as much this week, but looking back at the last picture it has put on some mass.
The left pot is the one with soil and the right pot is a smaller disposable plastic cup with only coarse sand.
The left pot is the only one pushed into the sand which is why it looks shorter.
Im still completely unable to tell any difference between the one growing in soil and the one growing in only inert substrate.
Both of them are growing tons of roots that I can see when I lift up the pots. In fact the Blyxas have the most roots of all my current plants.
I managed to crack the plastic pot while moving things around, and need to transfer the Blyxa to a glass pot.
Im very reluctant to do this as I really dont want to mess with all the roots the plant has worked so hard on making, and also because I dont want to influence the experiment. Im putting it off as long as I can. So thats why its sitting on top of the sand, because it would break further if I try to push it in while cracked.

I havent seen any BBA in my tank yet, time will tell if any shows up as the java ferns get larger and older, but so far so good!
There has been no increase in cleaning or maintenance apart from the big replant and the trim of old fern leaves.
So I would say for me and this tank, dissolved organics or whatever doesnt seem to have anything to do with BBA.
Suffering leaves and unhappy plants seem to have a lot to do with it.

You may notice I have added some oak leaves. The Rineloricaria fry hatched a while back, and I see they are not able to find much food.
So if I want fry to survive unaided I need more surfaces and more edible matter in my tank. The fish have been super excited about the leaves and are grazing on them all day.
Today I even saw a pygmaeus fry on the sand, which was a very welcome sight 
So my main focus now is making my tank ""dirtier"" without overdoing it and having it turn anoxic.


----------



## ScareCrow

Hufsa said:


> Looks like I will have to repurchase this plant to get polysperma green / not rosanervig.


 I ordered rosanervig and got sent green.


----------



## Hufsa

Sitting down with a hot cup of cocoa after a lovely day out with my SO. We went for a walk in the forest and I picked leaves and twigs while he watched the birds.
I was after beech leaves, after reading they break down even slower than oak and also dont stain the water too much. Its not the ideal season for it, but I found some younger trees that had the leaves on them still, so I could pick off clean leaves that hadnt started to decompose. They were a bit thin and curly, and after adding them to the tank I think next time I will go for the leaves off the older trees. These young ones dont have the same thickness and Im guessing will break down faster than the more solid older leaves would have. I was also rather rudely hit in the face with a branch while I was unattentive on the trail. The branch turned out to be alder with some cones still attached, so I grabbed a few twigs off the offending branch to add to my collection.
A portion of both were soaked in boiling water for some minutes before cooled down and added to the tank, and the inhabitants were immediately intrigued.
The litter hasnt entirely settled yet, but that hasnt stopped anyone from checking them out anyway. I havent seen this many otos out in a good while.

If anyone reading this is in doubt wether or not they want to add some leaf litter to their tank, do it!
Im not projecting when I say my fish really love it.
The shrimp hide amongst and pick on leaves and sticks, otos and sturisoma graze eagerly and the reserved Rineloricaria enjoy resting under the piles, having just their faces peeking out. Individual pygmy corys like to sneak off from the always spawning group to rest wedged between some leaves and recover for a bit.








Please ignore the hideous PVC cave, its not exactly the most natural look. I have some different sizes in there to figure out which ones my fish prefer, and im planning to cover them in sand matching the substrate soon-ventually.


I have some new arrivals as well, they have been with me for a bit over a week. I was nervous to aquire them and didnt want to write about them online straight away. Im still mourning the loss of the thermometer knives, and I wanted to make sure these guys were stable before introduction to the journal.
The shrimp and snails moved to the main tank and the new babies took over the kitchen tank to complete their quarantine and deworming course.



 







They are three young Loricaria simillima
A really cool species that likes to sift the sand using their impressive looking whiskers.
They are very docile fish, relying on camouflage (even though I think they would look quite at home in a goth clothing store), and walk leisurely along the bottom using their pelvic fins.
As I was moving the shrimp out I discovered I have been accidentally culturing a lot of detritus worms in their tank, and with no fish to eat them before the worms had become plentiful. The simillima had an absolute field day rooting them all out from the sand and eating them, and I had a lot of fun watching them.
They quite methodically pat down the sand using their mustaches and once just the tip of a whisker senses something, they quickly scarf down the sand, shooting it out their gills like a snowblower until they find the tasty critter and gobble it up.

I have diagnosed myself with Fishstick collectoritis.
Both these and the Sturisoma will grow to about 18 cm, which might be a bit big in the long run.
When it comes to stocking tanks, I dont like to be able to see too many fish at once, and I prefer the size of the fish to be harmonious to the size of the tank.
I dont really use guidelines or calculators to decide how much is too much, I like to do it by feel.
(@Karmicnull  you dont even want to know how overstocked I am on Aqadvisor when its calculating the full grown size of these guys )

That said all my fishsticks are still quite young, so I have time to see which ones I like the best, and also reduce the groups numbers as they become sexually mature.
I have already decided the Rineloricaria will not stay on for the long run, but I would like to use their regular spawning to practice my fry rearing skills.
I think this can be valuable experience for when I try to breed the Sturisoma and Loricaria later on.





As illustrated by my helpful Sturisomas here, the sand has changed a bit. And the amount of it.
Its no longer up to the edge of the metal frame, and it makes the fish a bit harder to photograph.

When I added the MTS and bladder snails to the main tank, I didnt expect them to die.
They were becoming increasingly lethargic and the MTS were just lying motionless on the surface of the sand.
I remembered that this happened last time I tried adding a few MTS to my tank, and finally I figured out why this keeps happening.
Well, I have a strong suspicion anyway.
The sand must have retained some of the various snail treatments it has been present for during its lifetime.
I have read many accounts on the internet of people claiming they are unable to add back snails to tanks that are otherwise medicine free.
Water changed countless times, carbon ran in filter, doesnt help.
And they say that changing out the old substrate for new stuff fixes it (in most cases).
After I finally put two and two together I decided that I had had enough of this sand, and it had to go.
So a normal waterchange quickly spiraled out of control into a whole day snail rescue operation.
All the snails were removed from the tank, some have very definitely died but those that started crawling around in clean water were added to the kitchen tank for some R&R.
A light coating of brand new sand was put in to replace the old one.
This sand is a different kind than the one I had before, its 0.1 - 0.5 mm grains and a nice uniform light beige.
This is the sand im planning to put in the 250 liter, so this gives me a chance to give it a test run and see how it performs.
I am nervous about compaction with such a fine grain size, and that the plants will not like it.
But it is super lovely to sift through and bury in for the fish, which is why I wanted to try it.


Otherwise not much has changed, plant health is fairly stable, except for the Limnophila sp x, which seemingly got insulted when I replanted it last time, and melted a bit and did some weird thing with the tops. Sometimes I wonder if im just unlucky and got the most drama queen plants in the whole factory. Beside a skipped waterchange everything else has stayed constant, so I dont know exactly whats going on (as usual) 😁













The remaining Hygrophila polysperma seems to have decided to stay green. Maybe watching its variegated comrades disappear has helped.




I love this little shady spot. The buce is still alive and has been adorned by the pygmys with an egg.




Suddenly had a lot of Bolbitis once the clumps from the holiday colony joined.
This thick bush is loved by most of the fish, and I look forward to placing it on some driftwood later on.
I want most of my tank to have this thick bushy feel.




Lastly the floaters staying behind in the holiday colony, to look after the new babies and the water quality.
All the ones in the main tank died of copper, but this bunch is going strong.
Im making sure the tank doesnt run out of macros, I noticed a distinct increase in leaf size when I bumped the levels up a bit.
When the quarantine tank is no longer in use I hope to be able to transplant these to the main tank, and not kill them.
The duckweed index really is helpful. A great tool to have in one's toolkit.


----------



## Karmicnull

Sue and Ash were reading your latest post over my shoulder.  
"Soon-ventually," said Sue.  That word was invented to describe anything you do."  
Thanks Sue.
"What are those?" said Ash, pointing at the Loricaria simillima,  "They are awesome! You have to buy some immediately.  They look like pointy sharks."
Léonie arrived.  "Who's Husfa?" she said
"A Norwegian Moomin," said Ash.

Witness how you've encouraged intellectual discourse in my household.  Mind you Léonie then went on to make me a Mad Dog Margarita, so all is not lost.


----------



## Hufsa

@Karmicnull 
Im not entirely sure who is who out of all these names, but im amused to hear my journal is enjoyed as a family activity 😄
Soon-ventually is a great word, it covers your intention of getting it done soon, but includes the more likely outcome that it will be postponed and procrastinated upon indefinitely. Exactly what I need


----------



## Hufsa

Writing this mostly for my own notes;
Made new batches of ferts today as I was running low.

New weekly macro totals are;
7.12 ppm NO3
0.37 ppm PO4
4.62 ppm K

Ratio based on Tropica Specialised, but since im using KNO3 for the Nitrogen content it has a higher K than Tropicas 1.236 ppm.
Amount is what they recommend as a starting dose, so ill see how it does.
Will be a marked decrease overall compared to my previous 2/3 EI, but im excited to try something new and see what happens.

New weekly micro totals are..
oh no.. just as im writing this I realise I messed up the micro mixing and made the daily dose the weekly target amount. Crap 
I guess instead of dosing 14 ml of my solution daily I will have to dose 2 ml. Thank goodness I made it extra dilute.
And I was so proud of myself too, for doing the calculations in the daytime for once instead of late at night like I usually do!
Guess it didnt help much! 😅 Im a bit of a night owl, so maybe im better off doing the potion making at night anyway.
I was making a weekly version for the kitchen tank at the same time, so I will blame that for my error, and not my general incompetence 😁
I double checked the macro notes just now and that one I did right, so thats good.
Anyhow, so the weekly micro total will be;
0.025 ppm Fe DTPA
0.05 ppm Fe EDTA
0.011 ppm Mn
0.007 ppm Zn
0.006 ppm B
0.0009 ppm Mo
0.001 ppm Cu

I have most of the salts I need to make a custom trace mix now -except- Molybdenum, so instead of going custom I went with Aquarium Plant Food UK Trace mix spiked with a little DTPA iron.
Next time I will hopefully be able to make one entirely custom. The main benefit besides the sense of satisfaction, is that I can do away with the relatively useless EDTA Fe that isnt stable at my PH.
My previous trace mix was from Aqua Plants Care (+ DTPA). This new dose is a fair bit lower, but im keeping a very close eye on the Blyxa and will adjust up if needed.
The ratios from one to the other is a little bit different, but I think its unlikely I will see any differences in the plants.
Theres a bit over twice as much Zinc, three times as much Copper (but still low), and a bit over twice as much Molybdenum.
I think I have read that plants can hoard excess micros to use later, so it might take quite a while for any deficiency symptoms to show up, even if the current levels im dosing are actually too low.

Just to make all the changes complete, I bumped the lights up from 5% on both to 10% on both.
Both the green Myrio and the Limnophila is stretching for the light and I think 5% was on the very lower end of what the plants like.
Growth has been quite slow it feels.
Im very interested to see if there will be a marked increase in green thread algae as I slowly increase the light.

Ive been curious to try doing leaner dosing and more light, and seeing if there will be acceptably low levels of algae when I do that.
It would be closer to nature, where nutrients are often in short supply, but sunlight is very strong.
I would like to have less ferts floating around in the watercolumn.
I have some chronic health issues (nothing serious) and sometimes water changes can be hard to do.
With 2/3 EI levels of ferts, one missed waterchange sees the nitrates rocket from ~15 to ~30 ppm. After 30 ppm I start to get increasingly uncomfortable, wether others agree with me or not.
I know most say nitrates are entirely harmless, but i remain somewhat unconvinced. As far as I know nitrate does not occur in significant amounts in our fishes natural habitats.
I dont think it is likely to have acute effects at the levels we dose, but for me there are too many unknowns on long term effects.
That we are adding nitrates ourselves, skipping over the entire nitrogen process makes it even more complicated.
Still, I would like to err on the side of caution and keep it low.

I skipped this sundays normally scheduled waterchange since I did 75% on thursday.
Instead I ran some clean hot water through the autodoser and recalibrated it.
The black tubing I had been using for the micro line had developed a slimy black film that came pouring out like a disgusting worm / intestine thing.
The tubing was bought off Ebay and sold for aquariums, but I dont trust this any more and threw it in the garbage.
I didnt really want to replace it with clear tubing since the micro chelates are light sensitive. I had some different black tubing from Aliexpress, so im giving that one a try to see if it makes the same gross film. My expectations are very low.. 😒 Failing that I guess I will have to spend some proper money on some higher quality black tubing, but I have no idea where to source it.


Fingers crossed my plants dont riot with leaner dosing 🤞
It would mean I could do smaller waterchanges, my shrimp should appreciate it.
My SO has started asking me some very astute questions about the ferts and the water changes.
"If youre changing water for the health of the tank, and shrimp die every time you do that, is it really that healthy?"
I dont have a good answer for him.


----------



## Hufsa

Well this journal has been neglected a bit, theres been some changes since last time, ill try to get them all written out but ill start with the stuff I touched on in my last post almost a month ago.

The plants seem happier now. When I changed the dosing and lighting levels I did see some temporary changes / stunting. Like the tops of the Limnophila sessiliflora all stopped growing in the main tip, and made new tips all at the same time. It was a bit of a scary sight but the plants look to be putting out slightly thicker and healthier growth after it. 
I feel confident in saying that 5% on both Fluval 3.0 lights was at the bottom range of what the plants could grow with. I am pleased to be able to say this, finding the lower limit makes me feel like I have learned something, although what its useful for I dont know quite yet.
Unfortunately the green thread algae is also growing better, Id say approximately the same increase in growth as the plants. I may have to accept the thread algae as the "plants I dont want" as Darrel would say. I dont know if theres a very feasible way of making this algae unhappy without also making the plants unhappy, while still staying low tech. Their needs are from what I understand very similar.

Plants do not look to be starving using the Tropica +K clone, and their recommended dosing levels. I will continue to monitor in case the plants are using up existing reserves, and as plant mass increases, but all in all im pretty happy with it.
I want to measure nitrates tomorrow before the sunday water change, even though I know it makes me a social pariah I just wanna see if I can get any ballpark estimates on how much NO3 is left.

I skipped last weeks water change based on the low TDS increase, and the waterchange before that I did only 25%. 
The shrimp seem happier with the smaller water changes, after I moved them over I havent had any noticeable deaths from them.
I observed many shrimp with partial molts stuck after they were moved over. A common symptom of my shrimp issues is that the shrimp is unable to pop out of the main body part of the exoskeleton and it remains on the shrimp after molting. The old torso shell then remains halfway attached to the body, making the shrimp look like it has wings. It seems like the exoskeleton cracks on the underside between the legs, instead of only at the neck, like it normally should. The other common symptom is death, without the retained shell 

Despite the happier plants and semi happier shrimp, I have had fish losses. A week ago I lost two fish to dropsy, one zebra oto first and then two days later a pygmy cory. Then yesterday I find another dead oto  
Im at a complete loss for the cause of these deaths honestly, could it be fall-out from the substrate change? Ive done smaller water changes than usual, but should things be building up to lethal levels in such a short time? What about all the low tech tanks that dont get 50% weekly water changes? They seem to be doing just fine.
I feel like im in a position of "damned if I do, damned if I dont", as shrimp die when I change more water but then maybe fish die if I change less? _Sigh_
Sometimes I just want to quit fishkeeping altogether. I feel like the remaining ottos look slightly strange, and the corys maybe go to the surface slightly more than they should, but it could be my worry for them making me see things.
Im considering doing a 50% change tomorrow, shrimp be damned, but I hope these fish losses stop with these three..

Another change that could be related I suppose, two weeks ago I added a new Eheim canister filter. When a private seller I had a purchase lined up with stopped replying to my messages, I went out and got a brand new Eheim 350. This is basically the same filter design as my old Eheim, but it has a slightly stronger flow. I like that it is square so it is economical with the space it takes up in relation to the classic model, and that other than that it has very few features and parts, and fewer parts means fewer things that can break. 
Im happy about being under warranty and having got it from a local shop I will enjoy all the customer support that was so sorely lacking with the Aquael Ultramax.

I no longer trust my Ultramax further than the tip of my nose, and I couldnt stand having just one filter running with a feeling like that.
There is a very valid fear that it could just refuse to start up after a servicing, and im not the only one who has experiences like that.
I wont be recommending the Ultramax to anyone any more, and im sorry for anyone who bought one based on mine and others initial positive reactions to it.

Long term I want to run my tank with two of the Eheim 350. That will allow me to have two intakes for even better flow distribution, and being able to alternate on which filter gets serviced. 
For now, I took half the media of the Ultramax and put it in the Eheim, and vice versa.
Apart from squeezing the sponges a bit to get some gunk to seed the Eheim, I dont feel like I disturbed the media much, but maybe this caused the imbalance in the tank that cost me those fish  

The Ultramax still has a full back length spray bar, and since it was getting late when I set up the Eheim, the standard Eheim pipes were just plopped into the tank and plugged in so I could be done with it. The Ultramax still occupies the left side of the tank, and since I didnt fit a spray bar to the Eheim, the right side of the tank has for two weeks been a bit of a torrential river of current, which has removed all the leaf litter, twigs, and sand from that side of the tank. The fish seem slightly miffed about the increase in current, but my filter shrimp are over the moon. One has taken up residence in a PVC pipe nearby, and has been happily filtering in the current ever since, while one of the others were so overjoyed that it got partially buried in a sand dune, and didnt think to uncover itself until half its body was under.

I think these are the main notes, but im sure I will remember something else as soon as I press "Submit reply". Thats how it usually goes.
I will try to get some pictures for visual updates eventually but no promises


----------



## Hufsa

Ah yes, I did forget a few things.

When I recalibrated the autodoser lines I attached them in a new "clever" way to the tank.
About half a week later I finally noticed a peculiar dripping sound when it was running, and discovered I had been fertilizing the floor for at least a few days.
It was quite late so I unplugged the doser, dosed the weekly amount manually and left it for later. Later has still not seen fit to grace me with its presence, so ive been dosing manually once a week since then. Ill get it set up properly again "soonventually".

After I pressed submit reply a few hours ago I set out to finally fix the torrential river situation going on in the right hand side of the tank.
While I was making a spray bar for the Eheim, I discovered to my great surprise that the Eheim is -very- similar in output to the Ultramax 2000. I expected Eheim to be somewhat closer to its stated output than the Aquael, but that they would be almost the same I really didnt see coming. Granted, the Eheim has a clean impeller housing etc and the Ultramax impeller hasnt been cleaned for a few months, but still quite significant. For others looking to get rid of their Ultramax this might be a good thing to know.

Without spray bars this is the raw output from both filters. Ultramax 2000 on the left and Eheim 350 on the right. Do note that the Eheim output was a bit higher over the water surface than the Ultramax.



Please excuse the spilled fertilizer mess from three weeks ago and the homemade food funnel for the autofeeder 







A very quick and dirty picture of the tank as of now.
I had a little rummage around to check for any dead fish, and to replace the sand that was removed from the right side.
I also discovered a grey fishstick laying on some eggs in the leftmost PVC cave.
The Hygrophila polysperma has really taken off and is starting to gain a proper size.
I replanted the tops of the Super Red, it appears to be rapidly absorbing its old leaves, I may need to up the fertilizer dose a bit.

Lastly I forgot to touch on the quarantine tank, the goth fishsticks are doing very well and have gained a lot of weight.
At first I thought quarantine was such a hassle, but I see now that I couldnt be further from the truth.
In addition to being able to easily treat with medication, I have been able to target feed and really get to know these guys.
And not only that, they have also had time to get to know me.
As soon as I sit down they start mopping around looking for the Fud from the Fud-giver.
Their quarantine period is over after this weekend, but until things are stable and I have no deaths in the main tank I consider that the kitchen tank will remain the safest place for these guys to be for the time being.
When they are finally introduced, I look forward to see what places in the tank they will prefer. So far they seem totally disinterested in hiding.








Edit: Oh and as of today im bumping the lights to 15% each. Ill see if I continue to get a good increase in plant growth or if it will mostly benefit the algae.


----------



## Hufsa

Plant growth in the last two weeks have been great, im very pleased. Green thread algae growth has been similarly increased, which im feeling some kind of apathetic resignation about.
Ive gotten a bit more lazy and 25% water change every week turned into 25% water change every two weeks. The TDS isnt rising very quickly, so I may be able to get away with this long term, time will tell.




The Nesaea has gotten gigantic and I love it. The stem on the upper right hand plant is so thick, much more healthy looking than ive ever had my stems. Its showing some strange curling leaf issues along with my floaters, which I have a seperate thread about. But im so happy about the color and size, smaller issues be damned.

The light increase seems to really have perked up the plants, and right before easter I moved the goth fishsticks and the floating plants over to the main tank.
I have lovingly hand sewn a mesh basket to protect and support the floating plants, and between the shelter from the current and the increased light, they have put out much bigger leaves and are not looking like they have one foot in the grave for once. I love the duckweed index but it was very hard to use it when my floaters kept dying off! But now I can actually use the index like youre supposed to.





Im continuing to argue with my filters. Im trying real hard to get the velocity of the water down without throttling the output too much, but im having limited success.
Normally when you make a custom spraybar you want to keep the area of the holes equal to or less than the area of the pipe. But since im trying to get less flow, ive been experimenting with having too many holes. 5mm holes proved useless, as the water was free to shoot out sideways from the holes and ended up far too wonky to be usable. I havent tried 4mm holes yet but im imagining it will just be slightly less useless than 5mm. So 3mm has been my size of choice. When reading threads online I keep seeing people writing that having too many and/or big holes will make water mostly come out the first holes. Well, they must have been massively overdoing it, because I have the opposite problem. Most of the water sprays out the last 1/3 of the spray bar, and the first 1/3 barely has anything coming out the holes. To counteract this I have meticulously experimented with electrical tape until I have arrived at the following formula.




So here we have 33 (uncovered) holes of 3mm on an approximately 30 cm long bar. Thats a lot of 3's but its not on purpose and just worked out that way 😁
So for the last 50% of the bar, I have covered 2/3 of the holes. So each black tape covers two holes. For the middle 25% section, I have blocked 1/2 of the holes, and the first section is left uncovered. Ive found that this makes the spray much more even, albeit not perfect. The way water comes out the bar doesnt appear to be linear, and mathemagical fluid dynamics are way above my paygrade. So this is just to get it to an acceptable evenness for me.
[Edit to add that it is 33 holes left uncovered]

I would still like to make a test bar that is so overkill the water just limps out the start of the bar like people have written, but im not sure how I would get there. I have seen it myself when I use a very long large hole spray bar coupled with the modest pump flow from my big blue water barrel. If I can get that on the Eheim I can then plug it up with tape until I potentially have a very slow flow from the bar. But theres only so much room to drill 3mm holes in a single line, so I may have to try 4mm to reach it.
But for now spray bar experimentation is on hold as ive straight up ran out of tape and wont be able to get any more until the shops open after easter.

I have gotten quite married to the idea of running two canisters, I really like having two intakes to prevent dead spots in the back corners, and two canisters will provide more filtration capacity than ill ever have need of. Lastly I love the idea of being able to service one at a time and still having one running if the other one should break.
If I could settle for running just one canister again the flow would not be a problem and I could make a gentle 80 cm spray bar no problemo.
But since im a greedy beach Im instead stuck fiddling with two smaller bars and way too much flow. I may have to throttle the filters in the end, but ill be damned if ill do it without a fight. So thats the latest on equipment obsessing. Oh and the brand new Eheim is unreasonably noisy so I need to get that fixed as well, ugh.

Back to plants:



Not seeing any obvious iron deficiency in the centers of the Blyxa yet, despite the very modest weekly 0.075 ppm.
The plant on the left is in Tropica soil while the one on the right is in plain coarse sand. The right one may have slightly paler outer leaves if I look really close, so I think it may be hungry for something while the left one is getting it from the soil.
I had to replant the right one which accounts for the slight difference in size.
Now that im dosing leaner than EI I mostly consider my Blyxa experiment concluded, so I may repot the left one too into inert substrate.
My conclusion is that I couldnt see any difference in plant size with soil or inert substrate as long as I dosed unlimited ferts. Doing lean dosing of the water column would mean that an enriched substrate would be much more critical for the plants, but im not planning to test the latter as I dont care for soil.




A new arrival that was hanging out in quarantine with the gothsticks is Anubias coffeefolia. I really like the wavy leaves of this variety, its a bit big which is a shame but the fish like its large surfaces. The smallest leaf was produced in quarantine, and it looks a bit chlorotic to me. I will monitor the next leaf and see if it looks off as well, then ill have to adjust some things.




Tripartita has grown bigger and nicer leaves. Some of them are a bit lime colored, but this plant grows so unorganised its hard to tell if its new or old leaves so not really useful as an indicator.




After pulling out all the variegated stems I could find, I finally have plain green Hygrophila polysperma. This is exactly what I wanted, a plain basic green leaf that I can use to check on plant health. I see a sneaky little variegated stem on the edge of the image, I will dispose of it with great prejudice.
Some of the older leaves of the polysperma look odd, with whitish leaf spines, green mid leaf and pale outside areas, with a wavy margin between the two latter.
You can see it clearest on some of the leaves near the tripartita.
There is some sort of global nutrient issue going on that im working on, but I dont know what it is yet.
Its not showing in the polyspermas new leaves yet, which could mean its a mobile nutrient, or it could mean that its an issue from the past from when I was messing around with stuff as I usually do. So some more observation is in order.




"Super Red" did not keel over and die after the replant, which im pretty pleased with. It still looks quite small and pitiful but ill take what I can get.




After my java ferns stopped melting from the trim they started putting out lots of nice looking new leaves. The trident definitely took the trim the hardest.
But the new growth is the best ive had from the java ferns in a long time, so its not so bad.
They look a hot mess on their temporary stones though 😄




Susswassertang finally showing some growth, ironically the big flat slab that was in the darkness of the quarantine tank has grown much more than the little pebbles in the main tank. Life works in mysterious ways I guess.



Behind the slab is a lovely mixture of anubias and leaf litter, branches and alder cones. I would like to have the majority of the bottom looking like this, but im not able to get leaf litter to settle in the front of the tank until I get the flow tamed.
This calm corner is behind the big mess of Bolbitis, and is a favored resting place of many of the fish.







The goth fishsticks have taken up permanent residence in the left hand side of the tank under the filter intake, which is a little bit annoying as it makes it harder to feed them.
Please excuse the lack of sand, I need to fill up that area a bit.




The grey fishstick eggs hatched sometime during easter and some of the babies like hanging out in this little pile of filter media together with some shrimp.
Im not feeding specially for the fry, because blanket feeding an entire tank like you would feed a fry container seems to me to be a very quick way to get a foul smelling filter and end up with a disaster. So im letting nature take its course, as much as you can invoke nature in a manmade glass container kept on life support by a bunch of electrical gadgets.


----------



## Hufsa

Ah before I forget, the malaysian trumpet snails have been reintroduced to the tank and are happily alive and digging around in the new sand 
So it was the treatment tainted sand that was killing my snails!
Maybe this is why I had no success with Nerite snails before 🤔😳


----------



## Karmicnull

Glad to know you've nailed the source down. Persistent chemicals are really scary in the context of fish tanks.  Do we get an FTS?


----------



## Hufsa

Karmicnull said:


> Do we get an FTS?



Here is a full shot as requested 
I had just moved a few plants around and was midway through another spray bar experimental excursion so please disregard the floating debris and random filter outlets.





Im not sure why it is interesting to see my FTS's, it usually looks fairly random and unplanned (which it is), although I think this is one of the least helter skelter layouts ive had recently. But maybe the haphazardness is what people like about it. Makes them feel better 

The pots look silly but gosh dang it I love being able to move a whole plant grouping around in 2 seconds.
I am still looking forward to having a properly planned scape and some real big twisty pieces of driftwood though.
I want to merge my love of driftwood with a @shangman  style of planting, with plant species blended together like you would see walking through the forest.

At the end of my spray bar experiment I did manage to get the flow quite tame, success!
I can post some more deets once I know I got it exactly perfect.
I will celebrate tomorrow by adding a few handfuls of new leaves.
I needed some leaves to test the new flow levels, and as I was fishing out leaf litter from under the Bolbitis bush I realised most of it was dissolving / had been eaten.
It was populated by a good amount of copepods, wiggly detritus worms, shrimp babies and fish fry, which made me happy.
It smelled nice as well, so it seems my plan of having a dirtier but healthier tank is well underway.
I think the MTS will be important to keep things aerated long term once things start to build up a bit, they will keep things turned over.


----------



## Hufsa

Oops, forgot a few bits again

As eagle eyed observers might note, there is a new plant in the FTS, I got it just today, its a big scraggly branch of H. pinnatifida. Ive had a really hard time getting hold of this plant and I really wanted to retry it after the disaster of last time, in which I didnt feel like I had a fair chance 
It was covered in green dust algae, oh if only I could struggle with this algae instead. 
I easily rubbed it off some of the bigger leaves and then left the shrimp to gobble up the rest. Its not super easy to see but theres a ton of shrimp grazing the plant in the picture. Ive found they always swarm new plants like this, seems to be some sort of film on them they like. But this one also had the yummy algae.








My rescued Bucephalandra Red is doing alright I think, it has woken from its slumber and is producing new leaves, I believe some of the leaves on the plant now are "mine", aka grown by me. There seems to be a bit of BBA or something starting on the leaves, hm I dont like that much, maybe I need to find it a more shaded spot.. But its such a lovely little plant, I would like to have it visible..




A random picture of a Sturisoma rooting through the leaf litter. This species is such a character, theyre kinda arseholes to be honest, they cant just eat their food, they also have to make sure that no one else eats any of it as well. Sometimes they spend so much time chasing away the other fish they barely have time to eat anything themselves!
Before I got these three species of fishsticks I had no idea they were so different in behavior.
The Rineloricaria on the other hand, are quite reserved fish, slow to the food but dont bother anyone. Not very visible but eager breeders. If they see you looking at them they will sometimes bury themselves in the sand.
And the Loricaria, my favorites, is somewhere in between. Quite peaceful at feeding time but always visible. And those gorgeous mustaches.. 🥰

The blurry spot in front of the PVC cave in the picture is a fishstick fry on the glass


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> Im not sure why it is interesting to see my FTS's,


It's part of the rules.  Gotta have an FTS.  Otherwise none of the other photos count . I have to say hats off for a second stab at H. Pinnatifida. I might do the same - but not until some dim and distant point in the future when I am older, wiser, have a long flowing white beard and at least a faint idea of what I am doing.


----------



## Hufsa

Belated sunday-ish update.






I think I have found a pretty sweet spot with the lights at 15% each. Its possible the plants could grow even faster with a bit more, but I think I would also get more algae that way so I will stay on this light level for a while and just enjoy. Faster isnt always better anyway. Plant growth is really nice, duckweed index is happy, Ludwigia Super Red didnt die when I replanted it a while ago. What more could a girl want?

I feel like I can just tinker with small adjustments now to get things running as perfectly as possible since there are no major issues.
I have no doubt I will eventually run out of things to change at this level and start to up the light just to see what will happen, but its a little while away still 

Im making a few tweaks to the ferts, for two seperate reasons.
My new weekly totals are as of today;
4 ppm NO3
0.2 ppm PO4
7 ppm K
0.5 ppm Mg

0.0375 ppm Fe DTPA
0.075 ppm Fe EDTA
0.0165 ppm Mn
0.0105 ppm Zn
0.009 ppm B
0.00135 ppm Mo
0.0015 ppm Cu

Reason one is ive had some strangeness with curling leaves of some plants and slight symptoms of ~something~ in others, see this thread for more details.
I added a touch of Magnesium to my daily macro dose, to make sure Mg continues to be available during longer periods of no water changes.
I upped my K a bit to see if the Hygrophila polysperma will have less holes in old leaves, but this symptom could also be caused by lack of CO2, so this change might not do anything.
I also increased my Iron and traces by +50%, because the Hydrocotyle tripartita and Anubias coffeefolia were showing some possible chlorosis in new leaves, and I was running on a very low dose already. I believe some of the traces could cause leaf curling when they are deficient, so a general increase may also help that if im lucky. Im not going to adjust individual trace ratios at the moment, im planning to go down that rabbithole of insanity at a later point.

The second part of the tweaks are to reduce build up of ferts for the times where the tank may go a few weeks between water changes. Since I am now changing only 25% water because of the shrimp, the build up is even more pronounced. So I am cutting NO3 and PO4 dose by approximately half. I want to note here that I have never experienced algae related to fertilizer dosing in my tank. I could dose 7 ppm nitrates or 30 ppm nitrates, the thread algae stays at same level. If I run my lights at 100% however, oh boy will I get algae, regardless of ferts. I just wanted to make that part clear, im only reducing these because I am seeing build up, not because of anything else. If you are changing 50% of your water every week without fail then build up is nothing you need to worry about. My tank is much more heavily stocked than it was in the beginning of this journal, and thus is producing more nitrate and phosphate from fish waste. This means I can get away with adding less of these two from ferts.


I also wanted to say that if you are reading this journal and there is something you dont quite understand or something I could make clearer, please feel free to post asking me to elaborate. Worst case I would refer you to an existing thread on the subject 😃  I have realised my journal is a bit of a weird mix between low tech peasantry and in-depth chemistry/fertilizer talk.

On to the plants:




The two top pots of Hygrophila polysperma contain old shoots that were prevented from growing due to shade by dominant stems, and trimmed bottoms, hence the ratty looking leaves.
Bottom pots are replanted shoots. Im working on propagating this plant a little bit so I have more large stems and can fill out the new scape better.




Blyxa looking pretty good minus a few issues, inert grown on the left this time and in tropica soil on the right.



 


Dominant stems of Nesaea got replanted into the Bolbitis, brilliant trick I learned from Ady's journal, looks pretty cool I think.





The Limnophila sessiliflora from the Tropica pot, and the bunch that came in looking weird has turned out to be the same plant after all.
The pot from Tropica has been the most steady growing once it got going, the other stems have taken forever to recover from some sort of grave mystery insult I accidentally inflicted upon them, and are still not growing 100%. Im also propagating this one a bit as I think it will make a nice backbone of fast growing plants together with the H. polysperma.



 


The Hygrophila pinnatifida has gotten its own "floating" island made out of a bit of redmoor wood fastened to the background with a suction cup.
I took these pictures mainly so I can look back and know which leaves have grown in my tank. Id like to monitor closely how its doing and im sure there are readers here who are equally interested @Karmicnull  😉 The island is located very close to a filter outlet because this plant grows on top of waterfalls in nature and is adapted to quite a lot of flow.

Im hoping my filter shrimp will find their way up here, as I intentionally made it so that they can hide behind the piece of wood. They were so happy in the holiday colony tank, and had even stopped reacting to us approaching the tank. But now in the main tank they have sadly gone back into hiding and I am constantly trying to make them feel more comfortable. They greatly prefer spots with lots of flow obviously, but the gabonensis species also seems to prefer the filtering spot to be dimly lit or under something, so that they feel protected. Lastly the spot should ideally be reachable by climbing, as they dont normally swim around much looking for good areas. I will try to make some sort of bridge for them to get up there.


Bonus Sturisoma










Here is the legally required FTS 😁

I wrote last time that I had finally made a spraybar setup that was slow enough for leaf litter to settle on the bottom, but overnight the leaves blew away and made a liar of me 🙄
A lot of cussing and sweating and a week later I finally have a solution, although it was not what I thought I would end up with.
I now have two "hobo lily pipes" made out of plastic bottles 😂
One is in the back right and the other one is left front.
Im really not a fan of glassware intake/outlets for aquariums, every time I just see the many pictures of aquarists' sliced up hands when they invariably break, and they require constant cleaning keep them from looking cruddy. They are also not DIY friendly and are made for open top tanks.
Both filters are running completely unthrottled now and the leaf litter sits securely on the bottom. Food also isnt blown everywhere which is a huge plus. The shrimp can walk comfortably across the sand without looking like they are working on their cardio.
I find it a bit amusing that aquascapers who are so concerned with maximum flow and beastly filters are using an outlet that is apparently great for making gentle flow 😉
Ive ordered a couple of acrylic lily pipe ends from Aliexpress to de-hoboify my setup slightly, but as usual they will take a while to arrive.
Until then the bottle pipes will see me through 😄








My Loricaria simillima (gothsticks) have ever since I added them to the main tank insisted on taking up residence in the left hand side of the tank. This is all fine and good I suppose, except that I am rapidly running out of substrate space with all these happily growing plants. Every time I try to place a few plants over in their area they get immensely offended by this obstruction and start thrashing through the plants and angrily swimming up the glass to get where they want to go. They also want their area to be a little bit shaded but not by leaves because that is apparently "too in the way" 🙄 So after a little bit of trial back and forth like this, I remember I have a U shaped piece of mopani wood in my hardscape hoard that I could make into a nice secluded garage for them. I even put the Windelow ferns on top of the wood, freeing up further space. In front of the wood I made an open sandy area where I can put their food, so that I wont have to feed them so close to the filter intake. After rearranging I patted myself on the back and went to bed, expecting them to be happily resting under the wood the next morning.




The gothsticks seem to hate the secluded garage and are now congregating in the sandy area in front of it.









Ah the joys of fishkeeping. At least they are easier to feed here.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Plant growth is really nice, duckweed index is happy


Yes, I'd be pretty happy with that. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

A few bonus pictures of the inmates taken this afternoon 




There was a bit of a fishstick smorgasbord happening at dinnertime.




An oto searches the leaves for food with the help of a shrimp.




Even the Rineloricaria made an appearance.




Bought a few amanos this week, they are still quite young, almost the same size as the neocaridina. Hope they like thread algae 




Who could resist this face


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> The Hygrophila pinnatifida has gotten its own "floating" island made out of a bit of redmoor wood fastened to the background with a suction cup....Id like to monitor closely how its doing and im sure there are readers here who are equally interested


I am standing on the side of the playing field cheering the HP on!  There was some on sale in the forum today which I happened to see in the 7 minute window before it was snapped up, and I was thinking to myself, if Hufsa's survives, then maybe....



Hufsa said:


> Here is the legally required FTS


We expect no less.  I love the way the home made bottle-top intake/outlet look so similar to the ADA glassware - it's satire in a fish tank!  You should keep them as a post-modern artistic statement.
Spectacular fish photos as always.  Keep 'em coming!

Simon


----------



## Hufsa

Every day since sunday I have been changing 25% water to try to slowly bring down my ~60 ppm nitrate** and almost 200 TDS after my three weeks of skipping on waterchanges.
(**Usual disclaimers about test kits apply, not to be taken orally, may cause constipation and is known by the state of California to cause cancer.)
Now that we have that out of the way, lets continue 😁

25% water changes seems to avoid triggering the stress molting of the shrimp, im seeing way less empty molts floating around in general and the shrimp population looks to be higher than it has been in a long time. Together with slower flow on the substrate and the tasty leaf litter, the shrimp seem to be super happy.
To be honest I hadnt really realised they were any kind of un-happy, but seeing them now its clear they are feeling more at home.





I was due any of these days to retest my nitrates, as I wanted to get down to around ~10-15 ppm nitrates so I have some elbow room again.
However I seem to have gone and done a Hufsa (TM) impatient thing instead.
I was servicing a filter and found myself picking small bits of Eheim Substrat out of the sponges and pouring out dissolved Substrat powder from the canister bottom for the n'th time.
This was when I decided I had had enough of this rubbish biomedia, and wanted to keep only Siporax.
Now, dont get me wrong here, there is nothing special about Siporax, and the Eheim Substrat is probably a perfectly fine* filter media, in fact im pretty sure you could cycle your grandmas old stockings and still get perfectly good filter media out of it.
My issue with the Substrat is that it seems to be -entirely opposed to existing-* and I didnt feel like fighting it any more.

So I set about sorting Substrat from Siporax, that I had of course mixed together earlier to try to get the Substrat seeded quicker.
I hung the Substrat in filter bags in my tank, and am planning to take them out one by one over time.
I dont know if the Substrat has had enough time to host much of my archaea/bacteria, I dont know how effective they are hanging in the flow like this, but I do know I end up kicking myself every time I endanger my fish and i am a very nervous nelly, so I will keep them there for a bit just to be safe(r).
Since these sort of shenanigans tend to negatively affect the balance of my tank I will continue changing water daily for a little while longer.

It struck me the other day that maybe the reason my fish react so strongly to nitrite is because of my soft water?
I know salt (NaCl) protects against nitrite poisoning just because ~"it occupies the same space" in the gills as nitrite, but does the same apply to calcium and the other stuff that is in hard water?
I think a few times I have read here someone saying "oh yeah I have a small reading for nitrite, 0.5 ppm" but their fish make it through.
If my water tested 0.5 ppm for nitrite all my fish would already be floating belly up at the surface 😲
Or maybe im just imagining things 



Karmicnull said:


> bottle-top intake/outlet ...  You should keep them as a post-modern artistic statement.


Sometimes I feel like being a bit counter-culture to all the high gloss and perfection of aquascaping.
Like, "Look at how shite this is! 😁 Youre welcome"

Its probably important to show that it doesnt always look great and thats okay. Especially for beginners ☺️




Ill end the post with a picture of little Gary.
I dont have any kids to blame the name on, I just like Spongebob 😄


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> I know salt (NaCl) protects against nitrite poisoning just because ~"it occupies the same space" in the gills as nitrite, but does the same apply to calcium and the other stuff that is in hard water?


Calcium (Ca++) definitely wouldn't have any effect, because we are only interested in the anions,  NO2- and Cl-. After that <"it is just a numbers game">, if you have enough Cl- ions in solution the "next bus (ion)" is, nearly always, going to be a Cl- ion, rather than a NO2- ion.  

My guess why the HCO3- ion is less "successful" is just down to the limited solubility of carbonate compounds. You can dissolved a lot of NaCl in water (~all chlorine and sodium compounds <"are soluble">), but a relatively small amounts of HCO3- ions where any group II metal ions are in solution.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

@dw1305 You had me up to HCO3- 
What is this? Also group 2 metal ions?

So Ca doesn't do anything in this context, what about sulfate?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> You had me up to HCO3-


The "bicarbonate ion", the <"form of TIC you have is pH dependent">, and you only get the carbonate ion (CO3--) in solution in very alkaline conditions.


Hufsa said:


> Also group 2 metal ions?


<"Group II metals are the "Alkaline Earth" metals"> like calcium (Ca) and magnesium (Mg). All the metals with a valency greater than one (everything <"except sodium (Na+) etc)"> tend to form insoluble compounds.


Hufsa said:


> what about sulfate?


I'm going to say that, even though it is divalent anion (SO4--), it will have the same effect as chlorine (Cl-), but I don't actually know the answer.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Journal been without an update for a little bit, but im sure youve seen me lurking around the forum (ranting and raving about lights and CO2) 

The filter media switchemaroo went perfectly smooth, I think the Eheim Substrat hadnt had time to take on much of the workload yet, so I didnt get any spike when I took it out.

Ive done a few changes in the past weeks, right after the last post I changed up the layout of the plants yet again, and got some of the newly bought trident fern mounted on the back wall. The tank suddenly felt a lot more grown in, and looked so much better. Ive hated how bare the upper area of the tank has looked for so long. The boraras were very happy with the choices, they took up territories in the plants immediately and got much redder. They had been pale and unhappily surfing the glass for several weeks, so I was very relieved to see them finally settle down. I dont know what caused the surfing to start, but it seems they didnt feel safe enough. Having upper areas of the tank planted seems really important for them.

Ive been mulling over my stocking for a while, trying to decide which species to keep. Three groups of fishsticks would have been too much in the long run, and the goth fishsticks stood out to me as my clear favorites. The Rineloricaria are very pleasant fish but werent out much and didnt have much personality, which made it feel like it was stocking load taken up with no big return for it. The Sturisoma had large personalities but were getting increasingly pushy around feeding time, and I was having trouble feeding the Loricaria enough without the Sturisoma looking like they were 384 months pregnant.
So all 4 Sturisoma and 4 Rineloricaria were taken back to the store, where I have no doubt they will find new homes soon. Im grateful for being able to try a few species and get to know them this way. I do try to avoid doing it, but in this case it allowed me to learn which species I liked the most and was most suited for my tank and other tankmates.
The tank was immediately a lot calmer after, and now I can leave some food out for the Loricaria and they can spend a few hours eating. That sounds like a lot, but one of them is uh.. lets say not the brightest bulb in the lamp and needs some time to find out just which direction to go in while his buddies are already eating.
My otos have also come out more after the Sturisoma left, so I think they felt a little bit pushed around.

Speaking of otos, someone has been eating my Hygrophila polysperma. A week and a half ago I saw one leaf with the very characteristic rasped "pleco" damage. 
Ive had the occasional nibbled leaf before on plants, usually when I havent been very good at all with providing the tank with veggies.
Ive never caught anyone in the act, before the suspects were Otos or Sturisoma, and now its Otos or Amanos, but I think its the Otos. 
I know they're said not to eat plants, but im not convinced.
Any way, I think its fair play they let me know they're unhappy with my level of service. 
I said to myself I would do it "soon", and soon quickly turned into a week. 
..It has been very rough on the polysperma.
They finally got a piece of sweet potato yesterday and the otos have been all over it. When they're not eating they're sleeping on it 

My goal to reduce the TDS has been reached, even if it took me a little longer than planned to get there. 
Im trying to forgive myself for not doing water changes when im not feeling well, sometimes you just cant physically do all the things you want to do. 
But doing 25% changes every now and then when I have been able to, TDS is now 155 in the tank vs 130 in the water change barrel. 
Close enough I think. 
I havent done any testing but I know my nitrates are lower, as my Nesaea has turned a more pink shade instead of yellow. 
I kinda prefer the yellow but id rather have clean water for my inmates. 
None of the shrimp have passed away from any of the water changes, even when I did them every day. 
So it seems smaller changes works, and ive also been matching the temperature better so now its within 1 degree of tank and barrel.

On the 22nd I increased the light period to 12 hours on the recommendations of @dw1305 and Christel. Today I unfortunately had to turn it back down again as it seems to have increased the growth of thread algae in my tank. Either this is the cause, or the cause is the changes in flow from the hobo lilypipes. But the time of algae growth increase matches better with the lighting change. A bit of a shame, I would have liked to have 12 hours. Ambient light is ever increasing as we get closer to summer, and my plants notice it for sure in the morning.
I will probably try 12 hours again in the future, but for now im going back to 10.

Other than that not much has changed, plants have been growing and getting on as normal.
The Nesaea is happily growing in the Bolbitis bush. When it was getting close to the surface this week I saw the plant start to twist and curl again, so I think the symptoms I saw in it before is due to too bright light at the surface. This is why I want a shallow tank, if I decrease the light the plants near the surface will probably not run out of carbon so badly they stunt and twist, but it makes it too dim all the way down at the substrate. 
A shallow tank would mean the lighting level is more even between top and bottom of tank.

@Karmicnull will probably want to know about the pinnatifida, I havent got any pictures at the moment, but its putting out new leaves and growing a lot of roots. Its absorbing many of its old leaves, at a fairly rapid pace. It was grown in a CO2 tank, so the transition from that may be contributing to the shedding, who knows. Im usually foolishly optimistic about growing stuff people tell me I shouldnt be able to grow, but this one im starting to be unsure. Right now the rate of shedding is outpacing the growth of new leaves, but we will see. Hopefully it will take off a bit more once it feels it has satisfactorily rooted itself. Maybe it was a good thing you didnt listen to me and buy that batch of pinnatifida after all  Ill try to get some photos soonish, for scientific purposes.


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> Im usually foolishly optimistic about growing stuff people tell me I shouldnt be able to grow


Haha I think this is something all us low tech folks do from time to time. I think we see the "requires medium light/medium co2" and think "yeah I can supply that".
I've been trying with pinnatifida for a month or two and it seems to follow the same path as yours, goes ok at the beginning and then slowly looses its lower leaves, I finally put the last solitary stem out its misery last weekend.

I'm having limited success with rotala hong-kong, even managed to trim and replant some of the stems, although admittedly it looks a shadow of its former self from when it was grown in a co2 injected tank.


----------



## Hufsa

I saw Bolbitis being classified as Medium difficulty, a plant that dominates fish store tanks where only algae grows and plants go to die.
I failed growing Rotala rotundifolia which is supposed to be super easy, Staurogyne also didnt like my tank.
Pogostemon, Nesaea and Blyxa are not supposed to like my tank but they do, all medium difficulty.
Even Hydrocotyle Tripartita is classified as Medium difficulty by Tropica, but ive never seen it being anything other than annoyingly weedy in everyones tanks.
People say you cant grow x and y without injected CO2 which just makes me want to prove them wrong.
With all that Ive decided im gonna try to grow the plants I like the look of, and if it works it works, and if it doesnt then ill know it doesnt work for me.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> A few bonus pictures of the inmates taken this afternoon
> 
> View attachment 167004
> There was a bit of a fishstick smorgasbord happening at dinnertime.
> 
> View attachment 167005
> An oto searches the leaves for food with the help of a shrimp.
> 
> View attachment 167006
> Even the Rineloricaria made an appearance.
> 
> View attachment 167007
> Bought a few amanos this week, they are still quite young, almost the same size as the neocaridina. Hope they like thread algae
> 
> View attachment 167008
> Who could resist this face



Great pictures @Hufsa - I missed this update.

That little oto is a beauty - I wanted to get some of those Zebra types previously, but my LFS wanted £15 for each one


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> That little oto is a beauty - I wanted to get some of those Zebra types previously, but my LFS wanted £15 for each one


Thank you, yes they are really gorgeous. That is around what I had to pay for them, they are a bit of an investment indeed.
The price was the main reason they remained on my wishlist for so many years. 
I assume they are all wild caught like other otos, may be that there are a lot less of them in the wild?
I like that they all have unique patterns, so you can tell the individuals apart with some practice. 
This group was also a lot more outgoing and easier to feed than the regular otos I had before, although that could have been just pure luck.


----------



## Hufsa

A picture dump today

Here you can see clearly the damage on the H. polysperma.
From above you can see there is a big difference between the plant breaking down its old leaves (circled in red), vs grazing damage (blue).
Yellow circle shows a combination of old leaves deteriorating and fish grazing at the same time.


 



I think the 50% increase in iron I did wasnt quite enough, the red arrow points to the newest leaf of the A. coffefolia.
You can see it looks better than the second latest leaf, in the middle bottom of the image. But its still a bit chlorotic looking.
Ill bump the iron and traces up another 50% today and then we can see what the next leaf looks like.




All the java ferns also have light tips, im not talking about the transparent tips, thats normal on growing leaves. But they are too light compared to the rest of the plant.
The Ludwigia Super Red is not super happy, but its hanging in there. It looks a bit messy because some stems came loose when I was pulling out thread algae and I had to replant them. The Hydrocotyle tripartita got a big trim, removed almost 2/3 of it.






Slightly unhappy Nesaea 😁 In the first image I have circled how the symptoms look when they start out, leaf curving to the side, curling up of edges, whole thing looking a bit off. Then as it gets too close to the light (gets more light than it has CO2 to support) it will look like the ones in the second picture. Look how amazingly twisty and unhappy the growing tip in the center got 😂 The ones beside it have turned a pinker shade, I assume because of the lower nitrates. These also look a little bit chlorotic.
I enjoy feeling like I have a good enough handle on things now to not need to freak out about a little deficiency. Its really not a big deal after all.
Just to drive the point home, nothing changed fertilizer wise when the plants curled up like this, this has nothing to do with ferts, and everything to do with CO2.
Just because I dont inject it doesnt mean its not the biggest player in the tank.


 



My sessiliflora sulking under one of the hobo lilypipes. It gets less flow and less light than its used to, so its not looking its best.




Duckweed index still pretty good, it would seem a slight iron deficiency may not show up on the floaters as clearly as on some of the other plants.
It seems possible to me that the floaters are just the fastest at grabbing what I dose, and leaving the slower growers to fight for the leftovers.
I still think the frogbit could be an overall darker green though 🤔




Now for the pinnatifida, not exactly anything to brag about at the moment 😅
I think every growing shoot has grown exactly 2 leaves since last time. Not the Usain Bolt of plant growth right here.
You can see the older leaves are full of holes and very unhappy.


 



The pictures from the side always lie, and make the tops of the plants look washed out.
think its just how the camera captures the lights that do it, because it doesnt look like this in reality.




A week ago I came across an online store selling a pot of alleged Peacock moss, a Taxiphyllum species/variant I have always wanted. A few local hobbyists used to keep something they called Peacock moss many years ago. It was almost exactly like java moss, except much much prettier in growth habit, and would grow lovely frondy puffs without trimming or much user input at all. Now if youre not aware, ID'ing moss is a bit of a cluster***k, almost but not quite as bad as trying to ID Bucephalandra. So theres absolutely no guarantee what I bought is peacock moss, theres no guarantee what the hobbyists back then called peacock moss was actually peacock moss, theres no guarantee peacock moss exists, and so on. Some say its just Spiky moss, but Spiky moss doesnt look like the moss from back when in my opinion. Its entirely possible im chasing a mossy unicorn. But lets see what this thing grows into. The moss that had grown in the pot was just single strands, which was a bit alarming. Im hoping thats just the emersed growth habit. The little growth that ive had so far in my tanks has also just been straight up. This will be a bit of a nailbiter I think. Its also not very pleasant to touch, which makes me wonder if its not Taxiphyllum at all.. Anyway I should stop rambling about moss for now 










Full tank shot so I dont get the police on my case 😉😁
The two floating containers are inhabited by some shrimp im trying to sell.
The containers were previously above the Hygrophila polysperma, which made it even more sad.
Ill try to keep them in the middle for now and see if the plant perks up a bit.
Hope I can get rid of the excess shrimp soon, cause the containers are really in the way.


----------



## Hufsa

Massive picture dump today, make sure youre not on a metered network! 

Sorry about the quality/focus of some of the pictures, I only use my phone which is quite some years old. And it doesnt like macro photography at all. 
A better camera will definitely be a priority when this old phone goes to meet its maker 




C. pygmaeus fry venturing out of the leaf litter









@ScaperJoe some shrimp for you to practice sexing 

























































One of the lovely brown short sand snails




My newly adopted elephant snail, Sir Snootentoot


----------



## ScaperJoe

Those shrimp are superb! You’re my new go-to for all Shrimp related birds’n’bees questions 😁


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## LondonDragon

Some great photos on that last post, lovely fish, shrimp and snails  I want one of those Sir Snootentoot too!!


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## Hufsa

I was going to update with a few plant pictures this past sunday, mostly to keep @Karmicnull updated on the pinnatifida project. 
I took the photos, waited for them to be uploaded to the computer and then promptly forgot about the whole thing until now 

The pictures didnt turn out the best and it felt like too much work to crop them, so I am just posting them as they are. Sorry about that, I havent been feeling well lately.




Tank still looks a lot like a plant holding facility I think, progress with setting up the replacement tank is painfully slow but im choosing not to stress about it.
All the fish are very happy and the plants are growing fine so there is no emergency.




I took the photos before I removed any thread algae. This was about a week or maybe two of buildup.
I dont think any tank has absolutely zero algae, algae is everywhere to some degree, unless your tank is a petri dish in a sterile lab.
Some tanks have very little algae, and some have a bit more, but I suspect almost everyone needs to remove a little bit now and then.
So this is how much I have, I figure why not show it.



 


I got my first ever Cryptocoryne a little while ago. I have always been a bit apprehensive to try them because of their tendency to melt and that they dont like to be moved.
I think we all know at this point how much I like moving things around.
A second reason is because I hadnt come across one I felt was worth the hassle when there were other similar looking plants that were less picky. 
This one was already transitioned but appeared to be very slowly dying in the shop. 
I had monitored it there for many months, reluctant to pull the trigger, but this time I decided I would _try_ to rescue it since it seemed like no one else were going to buy it. 
This is Cryptocoryne striolata 'tiger', which I have now come to understand is not a very common variety.
Ive just left it wedged between some java ferns, because all my nutrients are in the water column and not in my inert substrate.
It appears to have woken up, is putting out some new roots and a new boldly patterned leaf is forming.

After I bought the Cryptocoryne I broke one of my own principles and bought a few rhizomes of various rare bucephalandra.
They were clearly wild collected plants, and I have no way to know if they were sustainably collected or not. Exactly the sort of thing I wanted to avoid supporting.
But they too had been languishing in the shop for a long time, some species had completely disintegrated, and many others were covered in ever increasing amounts of algae. Very few appeared to be putting out any new leaves, and I worried it would only be a matter of time until they also rotted.
So I bought a small portion of a handful of varieties, vowing to do my best to keep them growing well and to try to spread them to other hobbyists.



 


One of the varieties with large black leaves 'Black Venti', appears to be a fast grower. Its in the background here behind two clumps of Kedagang from Tropica. Pretty much as soon as it was put in my tank it sprung into action and started growing new, wonderfully metallic leaves. It almost seems to grow faster than the Kedagang, which is known to be a very rapidly growing species of Bucephalandra. Im amazed by these buces ability to remain dormant in suboptimal conditions for such a long time, before turning around and start growing again basically at a moments notice.



 


My Anubias coffeefolia has put out another new leaf, this one looks much less chlorotic than the first two. This should mean the tank is at a better level of iron/traces now.






Hygrophila difformis has stopped being eaten and is recovering nicely, which reminds me I need to feed the fish another sweet potato again soon..




I at some point aquired some Ceratopteris thalictroides. 
I dont remember what I was planning to do with this, maybe just another fast growing bushy thing 🥴 Cant hurt.






Nesaea still OK, just need to keep it trimmed low enough so it doesnt choke itself near the light.




My moss has grown a fair bit. I have decided not to trim it so I can see what the natural growth pattern is.




My duckweed index, it doesnt seem -as- happy now as it was before. This may have been partially because it was released into the tank to survive on its own, and getting beat up a little bit by the outlets. Another possible cause could be the fert change, less nitrate and phosphate. I havent measured the nitrate to check, I probably will at some point.




And lastly the pinnatifida. It has stopped rapidly shedding old leaves, which seems like a good thing.
It does seem more stable now, but still think it will take a while to see if the growth can outpace the decay of old leaves.


----------



## shangman

What a treat, I just clicked on this thread and realised I hadn't read a whole page of posts!! I love this tank and all the shenanigans, lovely fish and lovely plants and experimentation. What's the name of that brown snail from 2 posts ago (not the rabbit)? It's very nice 👀

I find pinnatifida does the same thing in my lowtech rainwater, it's nice as a small ground plant, but doesn't seem to get bigger than that. It died in my lowtech tapwater, so it's not the worst outcome!


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## Hufsa

@shangman I believe the snail is a species of Thiara. I discovered it mingled with other trumpet snails in one of my LFS, the staff had not noticed that some were different.
I believe to have read that only wild caught specimens have extensive spikes, while individuals kept in captivity for a few (snail)generations only have small bumps like mine do.
They are really lovely, dark brown shell and a dark almost black velvety "snoot" 🥰 Ill stop now before I embarass myself any further 🤓


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> @shangman I believe the snail is a species of Thiara. I discovered it mingled with other trumpet snails in one of my LFS, the staff had not noticed that some were different.
> I believe to have read that only wild caught specimens have extensive spikes, while individuals kept in captivity for a few (snail)generations only have small bumps like mine do.
> They are really lovely, dark brown shell and a dark almost black velvety "snoot" 🥰 Ill stop now before I embarass myself any further 🤓


Listen, you might not be able to wax lyrical about your rare aquatic snails in most places, but you certainly can here!! 😂 Carry on! 

I'll keep an eye out for them. I love a nice snail, I have a few yellow rabbits from Steve Buce that are lovely, and I cherish all my MTS (basically nano rabbits) and other mini common snails too! Can't wait to try clithons next


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## Karmicnull

The Nesaea looks amazing - love it!  Fabulous golden burst of colour. 



Hufsa said:


> And lastly the pinnatifida. It has stopped rapidly shedding old leaves, which seems like a good thing.
> It does seem more stable now, but still think it will take a while to see if the growth can outpace the decay of old leaves.


It looks pretty healthy in the photos - looks like there are plenty of roots, which has to be a good sign.  I may start sending it fan mail.  That should certainly help grow its ego.



shangman said:


> It died in my lowtech tapwater


Welcome to the dead Pinnatifida club!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 


Karmicnull said:


> Welcome to the dead Pinnatifida club!


I'm also a member. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Its been a hot minute, ooof-

I came so very close to quitting aquatics.
My entire tank was posted for sale yesterday. Tank, tech, plants, fish, the whole shebang. 
I thought I was making the right move but the feeling I got in my gut after posting it proved me wrong.
I took the ad down after ten minutes.

How did it get to this point you may wonder.

Well since my last contact in May there were a series of disasters, unfortunate things and traumatic events, one after the other. 
Each took a good chunk out of my joy for the hobby, until the joy was totally gone.
I dont want to write about everything that happened. 
I feel like not having to spend a lot of time writing about it all is a small gift I can give myself.

The surviving fish have been living in the new 250 liter tank since the events. 
They have had an autofeeder running for food but no care or love. No water changes.
At some point the macros ran out. Then the micros. Eventually I just unplugged the doser.

Ive been terribly neglectful, and I am very ashamed about it.

The only thing I could manage was to check the TDS every once in a while. 
It was rising at first, and then it dropped until it settled around 200. 
At this point the plants had stripped the watercolumn of nutrients and only inedible stuff remained.
I think the lack of water changes would have been much harder on the fish had the plants not been there for them.

Some of the hungriest plants died back a fair bit, while other plants have been doing fine. 
The pinnatifida disintegrated when the ferts ran out, maybe not surprising.
There has been a lot of hair algae. First coarse stuff and then later some much finer thread algae.

I will post a FTS once things have settled a bit.
For now I am doing small water changes to avoid shocking the fish.
They are definitely overdue for some fresh clean water.


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## ScareCrow

Hi Hufsa great to see you back. As mentioned before, I look forward to your posts and enjoy your sense of humour, so I'm glad you're sticking with it.


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## John q

This is one of the journals that inspired me to set up my own planted tank, so really hope you can find a balance that works and continue with it mate.


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## Karmicnull

Hey Hufsa, we've missed you! I'm a plus one to the sentiment that your presence in this forum has been entertaining and inspiring in equal measure. But any hobby has to be a pleasure, not a burden. You need to do what's best for you. It can be really easy for tank maintenance to get on top of you. Take on as much as you want and no more. There's no right or wrong here.
Cheers,
Simon


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## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Its been a hot minute, ooof-
> 
> I came so very close to quitting aquatics.
> My entire tank was posted for sale yesterday. Tank, tech, plants, fish, the whole shebang.
> I thought I was making the right move but the feeling I got in my gut after posting it proved me wrong.
> I took the ad down after ten minutes.
> 
> How did it get to this point you may wonder.
> 
> Well since my last contact in May there were a series of disasters, unfortunate things and traumatic events, one after the other.
> Each took a good chunk out of my joy for the hobby, until the joy was totally gone.
> I dont want to write about everything that happened.
> I feel like not having to spend a lot of time writing about it all is a small gift I can give myself.
> 
> The surviving fish have been living in the new 250 liter tank since the events.
> They have had an autofeeder running for food but no care or love. No water changes.
> At some point the macros ran out. Then the micros. Eventually I just unplugged the doser.
> 
> Ive been terribly neglectful, and I am very ashamed about it.
> 
> The only thing I could manage was to check the TDS every once in a while.
> It was rising at first, and then it dropped until it settled around 200.
> At this point the plants had stripped the watercolumn of nutrients and only inedible stuff remained.
> I think the lack of water changes would have been much harder on the fish had the plants not been there for them.
> 
> Some of the hungriest plants died back a fair bit, while other plants have been doing fine.
> The pinnatifida disintegrated when the ferts ran out, maybe not surprising.
> There has been a lot of hair algae. First coarse stuff and then later some much finer thread algae.
> 
> I will post a FTS once things have settled a bit.
> For now I am doing small water changes to avoid shocking the fish.
> They are definitely overdue for some fresh clean water.



Hang in there man - I don’t know what issues you’ve been through, but try and focus on the pleasure your setup gives you, or had given you in the past, and that will carry you through. Give yourself something new and different to focus on - maybe a breeding project or similar - as it can rekindle that love affair with your tank.


----------



## Hufsa

Today comes the FTS, as required by the Karmic Law of Null, section 5, paragraph 2a.





The plants look pretty good for what they have been through.
Although, they have not been positioned like this for 5 months. This is after I did some tidying up in preparation for selling everything.

When the ferts ran out, the plants went into survival mode, and the hungriest plants took it hard.
Some species melted at the bottom, in what I am fairly convinced was a deliberate action by the plants to try to get to an area with better conditions.
I ended up with a large flotilla of plants in the middle of the tank, based around the thick stems of Nesaea crassicaulis and bound together with copious amounts of thread algae, the algae growing from the suffering plants.
Limnophila sessiliflora, Hygrophila polysperma Green, Ceratopteris thalictroides and the Blyxa japonica all melted at the bottom and ended up in the flotilla.
Ceratopteris thalictroides had some major real estate in the flotilla for a while, no doubt enjoying the proximity to the light and being able to float on the surface.
But after the Cera was banished back down to the sand, it did much poorer and the Nesaea claimed its place as the top dog.
I found this impressive and amusing, I would have guessed it would be outcompeted by the other species of plants which are categorised as much easier to grow.
The Nesaea is in horrible condition to be sure, stunted and hideous, absorbing its older leaves from the "everything deficiency".
But in comparison to it, the other species are barely present at all any more.

All the rhizome plants have done well, especially the Bolbitis. Hard times are no problem for this plant.
It is the most indestructible plant I have come across, and also my all time favorite ❤️
The java ferns have put on some decent mass, although they are now finally starting to show black spots and some general unhappiness.

Most of the rare plants have survived the ordeal, which I am very grateful for.
The Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger' has even put out some more leaves despite the conditions. They are not exactly big leaves but they are leaves. Baby steps 
Unfortunately one of the Buces, the Tontang, got knocked into a spot that was too dark by an upset fishstick. By the time I saw the remains of the plant, it was too late.
But the Bucephalandra Black Venti and Brownie Blue have grown pretty well all things considering.




Another FTS, this one after I did a little rearranging and added two roots. It looks somewhat contrived at the moment, but this not a finalized layout.
I wanted to get a bit closer to the idea I have in my head, and to see a little bit what I had to work with and what plants would fit where.

Im attempting to take it slowly, just a bit at a time. Trying to nurse that tiny flame of fishkeeping joy back to life without triggering any burnout.

The tank has had two 30% water changes a few days apart, so the water quality should be in a better place now.
Next on my to-do list is to mix up some ferts to feed these hungry plants, but first I need to figure out what I was dosing before.
Since running on -nothing- went surprisingly ok, I want to try to keep the tank going quite lean.
Adding enough to keep away from the major plant issues but allowing the water change frequency to be stretched out a bit from the standard weekly.
Not 5 months for sure, but 2-3 months might be doable, provided the water quality stays nice.
I dont want to do wrong by my fish, but hitting the wall so hard you can barely look at the tank for 5 months isnt good fishkeeping either.
So its not an attempt to shirk my responsibilities, but maybe to make it a bit more feasible.
Ack, it all sounds like excuses in my head


----------



## Hufsa

Evening dinner greetings from a fishstick in camouflage colors and an oto.
The fishstick got covered after one of the vampire shrimp spun off in a fit, covering everyone nearby in sand.
Two fishsticks survived "the events", and they have both grown a lot. They are easily 12 cm long currently, not including their long tail filament.

I like their mustaches very much


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> All the rhizome plants have done well, especially the Bolbitis. Hard times are no problem for this plant.
> It is the most indestructible plant I have come across, and also my all time favorite


Definitely thrives on neglect and keeps going on "petrol fumes".

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Evening dinner greetings from a fishstick in camouflage colors and an oto.
> The fishstick got covered after one of the vampire shrimp spun off in a fit, covering everyone nearby in sand.
> Two fishsticks survived "the events", and they have both grown a lot. They are easily 12 cm long currently, not including their long tail filament.
> 
> I like their mustaches very much
> 
> View attachment 175915







That Oto’s beautiful!


----------



## John q

Wookii said:


> That Oto’s beautiful!


The fish stick is pretty dam handsome too 😁


----------



## shangman

I'm very glad you haven't quit completely  Hoping you can learn a new way to stay in the hobby and keep it all in balance with life. Everyone goes through periods of needing to step back and change direction, it's so easy to go all-in obssessive with this hobby, burnout is a natural response when we exhaust ourselves! 

The tank still looks beautiful, and the fish even more so. I really love your journal and everything you do. If you do tend the spark and help it grow I look forward to reading about it!


----------



## Hufsa

Got a new batch of fertilizer mixed up today, noting the values here to more easily keep track.

Macro weekly:
2 ppm NO3
0.1 ppm PO4
3.5 ppm K
0.25 ppm Mg

Micro weekly:
0.075 Fe DTPA
0.05 Fe EDTA
0.0111 Mn
0.00707 Zn
0.0064 B
0.00091 Mo
0.0014 Cu

I went for half the amount of macros I used around May, I reviewed my notebook and saw that I still had a decent weekly increase in TDS with the old amounts, so trying half to see what happens. I dont remember if 0.5 ppm Mg weekly fixed the deficiency I was seeing, most notable in my Hygrophila polysperma. This plant is proving to be a good canary in the mines, just as I had hoped. I halved the Mg along with the other macros but it may need to be tweaked further later on.

For the micros it seems like I was at a pretty good amount of iron around May, reviewing the latest picture of the Anubias coffeefolia from back then.
I was dosing approximately 0.05 ppm Fe DTPA and 0.1 ppm Fe EDTA + traces. I dont feel ready to make a custom trace mix right now, so I made another batch with the trace blend from APF UK. This means as usual that I get a bunch of Fe EDTA that I dont really want along with it.
I tweaked it a bit so I get a bit more of the more useful Fe DTPA and less of the EDTA and traces. Time will tell if this was a good move.

I didnt get the doser set up again today, so I dosed the tank manually. The doser needs to be cleaned, have some new tubes installed and I need to complete the acrylic pipe hooks I was planning to make for hanging over the edge of the tank. Instead of trying to source rare(ish) black airline that wont get gross, im opting for normal clear airline with black shrink tube on the outside to block the light. I dont know why I didnt think of this originally, the outside is not in contact with water so theres no reason why I cant use shrink tube.




Wookii said:


> Give yourself something ... to focus on - maybe a breeding project or similar


I gave this some thought Wookii and I think my "breeding" project might actually be to propagate the Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger'. 
Of the "wild caught" plants, the buces are already growing fine and can technically have cuttings taken from them for further distribution in the hobby. 
But the Tiger is not doing as well (starved, poor thing), and I would like to focus on growing it better along with taking care of the tank.
I read somewhere that it may be hard to get daughters / runners from this one and that it needs to be propagated by seeds, but im hoping this is wrong.
Either way it needs to put on a lot of weight before anything else. 
So I will buy some juicy root tabs for it to feed on and make sure it gets a really good spot in the tank.
As ive mentioned before, I love to move things around, but im trying very hard not to do that to the Tiger. 
Therefore I need to figure out how I want my layout to be, so that it can be positioned in a more permanent place as soon as possible.

How it looks as of today. Sorry about the terrible photo quality, the light was dimming down and my phone didnt feel like focusing properly it seems.




I will be somewhat excitedly monitoring the TDS going forward, I hope im close to a balance where the plants' needs are reasonably met while avoiding large excess. 
This seems like a neccessary thing for the water quality to stay good and the TDS low while going longer between water changes. 
It will only be feasible for me to do it like this if I dont feel guilty about the conditions for the fish.

I remember that I wanted to write about something else too, but not what it was 
I bet I will remember shortly after submitting this post, as usual


----------



## Hufsa

Snapped a few pictures this evening, they got a piece of mango for dinner which was greatly enjoyed by all otos, a lot of shrimp, and Sir Snootentoot.




He ate a line of mango all up and down where his snoot could reach, with his big shell laying under the peel. 
Somewhat unfortunately for him, his "exit area" is on his right side, so he got a face full of 💩 as he was eating. He didnt seem too bothered. Good on him.




The otos ate so much mango they had to take a post meal nap, they were strewn all over the sand. We call it getting the "itis".




One of the new bits of wood is hollow, I spotted this very preggers amano coming out of it, shame the camera wouldnt focus. 
On the left you can see how big the Buce. Black Venti is getting.




The so called Taxiphyllum sp. 'Peacock' grew so much in the 5 months neglect, it choked out its undergrowth and detached from the wood. Now its just floating around until I can figure out what to do with it. It didnt turn out exactly like I had hoped, it does look closely related to Spiky moss. I think I wrote previously about the moss from many years ago that the local hobbyists called Peacock moss. Well, I dug up some old photos and im now pretty sure it was a species of Vesicularia, very likely Christmas moss. Christmas moss was not common here back then, so it could explain the confusion.
Im not convinced this is any different from normal Spiky moss to be honest. The reputable website aquamoss.net has a comparison between peacock and spiky moss, grown under the same conditions. Mine looks most like the Spiky from that picture, but the best way to know for sure would be to buy Spiky moss and grow them side by side myself. I dont know if I can be bothered with that. This moss, whatever it is, will need attaching again somewhere, and I think it will look better and more densely branched if trimmed regularly. This should also prevent it from choking itself loose again.




Nothing to see here, just a shrimp riding a fishstick.




I was taking pictures of this oto when a surprising scene played out. There is a little Physa snail that appears to be injured, or has some sort of air bubble trapped inside it. 
In the background some foreshadowing can be seen.




The fishstick approaches, pushing through the crowd of cowboy shrimp, then suddenly wraps its mustached mouth around the snail and slurps it out of the shell 




I was so surprised I dropped my phone but all that was left was the shell. 
Suddenly it explained why I was seeing a decent amount of empty snail shells around the tank. 
I hadnt given it much thought but figured maybe the population was balancing itself out. 
I didnt know Loricaria simillima eats small snails 




The fishstick got fed up with my paparazzi business, swatted its tail whipping up a bunch of sand, and then settled for giving me the stink eye a little up the hill.


----------



## Wolf6

Glad to see you back to enjoying it a bit! When I had my big burnout with tanks some years ago, switching to all in one premixed ferts made a lot of difference too. Just the ease of not having to mix and measure but just 2 clicks and its there next day made maintenance less of a chore. Ferts always ran out just when I really didnt feel like making new meant the tank often went without ferts for a while meaning plants suffered. I dont know how bad your 'burnout' is but hope you recover!


----------



## Hufsa

Wolf6 said:


> switching to all in one premixed ferts made a lot of difference


Ah I think I would find this more aggravating to be honest 😂
Paying $$$ for branded water with a tiny bit of nutrients in it, its hard to swallow this now that I know how uneconomical it is.
I dont mind making ferts so much actually, I quite like the chemistry aspect of the hobby. My note taking is also improving every time, so my instructions for next time are becoming less like cryptic runes from a lost alien civilization and more something thats legible for mortals.



Wolf6 said:


> I dont know how bad your 'burnout' is but hope you recover!


Thank you, this goes to everyone who has commented with support also, it warms my heart and helps to hear im not the only one 🥰

The weekly water changes were a big source of stress, and when the fish are sick is also really difficult for me.
Theyre not like a dog, you can usually take a dog to the vet and they can fix em up even if its pretty bad, but with fish youre sat at home playing guess the disease with limited info and sometimes poor odds. Or when I do something to unbalance the tank and the fish suffer because of it, thats also very hard.


Setting the autodoser back up has turned into a bigger job than I wanted.
When I set up the 250 liter tank following 'the events', I pretty much just threw the doser into the cabinet, so its been sat on top of the Eheim 350 canister filter, making the Eheim even noisier than the darn thing already is.
Now that im using new tubing and fert containers and whatnot, I want to do it all properly.
So ive spent some time trying to figure out how I should mount the doser and where to put it inside the cabinet.
Im pretty sure I want to sell this tank and cabinet in a couple of years and get something custom, so im trying to limit the amount of yeehaw-engineering solutions I subject the cabinet to, in order to preserve some semblance resale value.
Once there were two external canister filters in the cabinet, it didnt have quite the tardisian amount of space that I had dreamed up in my mind.
The cabinet came with two shelving plates, which are currently sitting on a rug in the hallway, much to the annoyance of my SO.
I think I may be able to fit one of them in, although it will need a cut-out around the filter hoses.
I also want to mount some slim baskets on the door to keep fish food in, which means I will have to cut the plate even more to allow for that 🤔
I bet the plate is made out of cardboard and lies too, which means it will get very ugly once cut into.
Im not really going anywhere with this information, I just wanted to vent about these terrible first world problems im having 😁


----------



## Hufsa

Progress is slow, but im telling myself im not really in a hurry, there is no deadline other than my own impatience.
My health condition sometimes means that things take a lot of time to be completed, which is something im still trying to learn to live with.
I have a (splendid, if I say so myself) plan for the tank in my mind, although making it look that way is in real life is the difficult part 😁
I have wanted to draw the layout on paper, but im afraid you will all laugh at my drawing skills, which will surely make a 5 year-olds drawings look like a masterpiece 

Im so inspired by @shangman 's tanks, if I had 1/10th of her artistic ability I would be well and truly happy 😍
As ive said before, I really like her blending of different species of plants, as well as how effortless she makes her layouts look. 
For some reason I always keep my plants in groups by default and I want to overcome this habit.
Ive gotten more ideas for aquascaping from her than I ever have from watching aquascapers on youtube.

I found some pretty cheap 1-2 grow pots in a petshop the other day, so Ive got some new plants loitering around as you might be able to spot in the picture. It would probably be smartest to wait to buy plants until I have the layout ready and space for them, but that would require patience and I dont really like that sort of thing.


For my layout I want a backbone of wood filling a lot of the tank to mount most of the epiphytes on. The wood doesnt have to be the prettiest, since it will be covered anyway, just roughly the right shapes. I have some old wood in my hardscape hoard that I think will work for the job.
I have to be a bit strategic with my placement of the Bolbitis, it is the largest growing plant in the tank, so I want to place it quite far back and low in the scape so it has room for its leaves. Its also fairly shade tolerant, so I can plant stems into it and also put other epiphytes slightly above it without affecting it too much. Below the epiphytes I will hopefully have some shady locations to put Buces and Anubias in.

Id also like some decorative pieces of wood in a triangular layout based at the left, with minimal planting, maybe just some mosses at select spots.
I would say Buces as well, but im not sure if I dare put them up too close to the light for algae reasons.
Ive got the "Peacock"/Spiky moss and susswassertang already, and bought Weeping moss and Christmas moss too for good measure. 
Ideally I would want Mini Christmas moss instead of the standard, but im not sure if its even in the country.
I really want Fissidens fontanus too, but apparently there are supply issues so none of the shops have it. Im pretty persistent though so im sure I will aquire some eventually.

On the sand I want some rounded cobbles of various sizes, definitely a few larger ones. I just find the smooth round shapes pleasing, even though they are probably considered very boring from an aquascaping standpoint.
Between and around the stones I want a good mix of smaller plants with interesting shapes and textures.
Hydrocotyle tripartita, Hydrocotyle verticillata, Pogostemon helferi, Sagittaria subulata and Blyxa japonica are those I have in mind.
Im finally trying H. verticillata, although its classified as Advanced by Tropica. 
Shangman is keeping it low tech in soft water, same as me, therefore I think I could have a decent chance to keep it alive. 
They look like adorable little toadstools, and I think they add a lot of charm.

Pinnatifida is back (back again), and this -should- probably be my last attempt at this plant.
In the petstore I convinced myself that the previous one didnt get a good enough chance because the ferts ran out and it was possibly unwise to have it so close to the light.
On my way home I pondered where the line goes between perseverance, stubbornness and just plain inability to learn. 
I figure I am somewhere in the latter part of that spectrum.


----------



## Wookii

I think the tank looks great - you obviously have your own plans for it, but if it were mine I'm not sure I'd do much more to it beyond adding a couple of epiphytes to cover the cable ties. The open sand/negative space, works really well, maybe you should resist the urge to fill it (something I always fail to do as a serial 'over-planter').


----------



## Hufsa

Oh that is very nice of you to say @Wookii 🥰
I think if you like this look then my planned one will look fairly similar, just a bit more refined in a way.
The stones that are in there right now with cable ties are just to weigh down the wood, I think I can remove the cable ties in not too long.

I will definitely keep some sandy space, although maybe a little bit less in the corners, just so I can fit more plants 😅
Over-planting, is that even a real thing (hehe) 😇


I forgot to include this cruddy picture in my last post, Sir Snootenpoot dutifully munching up wilted leaves.
The Sagittaria subulata 1-2-grow pot was a little iffy looking and a lot of the plantlets had died. Since im a pretty lazy fishkeeper I removed the worst and plonked the rest in the tank, leaving shrimp and pond snails to do the rest of the work for me. 
I wasnt expecting his royal snailness himself to climb up there and start working 😄 
Tylomelania snails have a reputation in some places to eat healthy plants, although I havent caught him doing anything untoward so far.


----------



## shangman

Oh @Hufsa you are too kind, making me blush! 🥰 What an enormous compliment, your tank is already so beautiful!! 

I'm super happy to help if you want with your tank and some plants placement if you ever want it  Though I think the tank already looks awesome I don't think you really need it, and it's always great to just try things out. Your plants are looking great and really lush, even before the rescape. It all sounds super exciting and beautiful, can't wait to see the hardscape in place. 

I think doing drawings is a great plan, it would be great to see! These drawings are technical and just about getting ideas on paper, bit anything pretty, I do rubbish drawings too to get my ideas there. No judgement on UKAPS that's what I love about here, it's all chill and not competitive, just collaborative 😀

For me the hydrocotyle did grow well in soft water, it took a while and did almost nothing and then suddenly started doing much better, fingers crossed it grows for you to!


----------



## Karmicnull

shangman said:


> For me the hydrocotyle did grow well in soft water, it took a while and did almost nothing and then suddenly started doing much better, fingers crossed it grows for you to!


More of the mysteries of planted tanks. In my hard water low tech tank I thought the last of the hydrocotyle I added in 2020 finally melted away six months ago. And then I finished work earlier this week to discover a long strand of it floating in the middle of the tank attached at one end to some moss. Go figure...


----------



## Hufsa

This evening as I was looking at different rare mosses in the hobby, I accidentally discovered that many Fissidens species grow locally, species that may grow well underwater and look very cool. Im super excited about this, and have plans to go out to visit some of the sites tomorrow with my four legged assistant. Maybe the lack of Fissidens fontanus will be the start of something really cool? 😃

Picture borrowed from World of Aquatic Moss facebook page


----------



## Hufsa

Success!!!





Ive had a fun couple of days crawling up and falling down slopes, sporting long wellies and twigs in my hair looking like a lunatic. 
I decided fairly early on to take it a bit easy with the slopes, and not venturing too far into the water of the most dangerous rivers.
I think "Killed by moss" would look really stupid on my gravestone.

Today I finally found some Fissidens, woohoo! 

I should have 4 species now, Fissidens bryoides (pictured), Fissidens adianthoides, Fissidens osmundoides and Fissidens dubius.
I dont know jack diddly squat about wild moss, so I cant tell these apart, but they were collected exactly where the different species have been registered before.
They look very similar to me, but the bryoides should be the smallest one of the lot. Its a very cute little moss, aquarium grown bryoides is in the picture in my previous post.

Ive also got a boatload of Fontinalis, antipyretica for sure but maybe also some other species if im lucky. 
Fontinalis squamosa and hypnoides are possible based on the collection locations. 

I would love to get all the mosses properly identified, but I dont know how to do that.

I also really want to decontaminate the mosses, they are from rivers with fish in them, and im not keen on parasites or crawlies.
@dw1305 do you know a way to do this? I seem to remember moss not having.. cuticles? and therefore are not as happy with treatments like bleach and stuff?

I will post more pictures soon, I still have a bunch of samples to unpack, just wanted to update you good folk


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> I also really want to decontaminate the mosses, they are from rivers with fish in them, and im not keen on parasites or crawlies.


I honestly wouldn't worry, but you could keep them in a fish free aquarium (could just be in a small container of water) for a couple of weeks. In the extremely unlikely event there were fish parasites present they will have died and any hitchhikers should be apparent.


Hufsa said:


> I seem to remember moss not having.. cuticles? and therefore are not as happy with treatments like bleach and stuff?


No bleach or Excel etc. You could try sparkling water, the CO2 should knock down any snails etc.  I might have a trial run, even with fizzy water, on a  less precious moss.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Warning: Picture dump, make sure youre not on a metered network 

This is my most preciousss right now, Fissidens bryoides (?) It was fairly abundant when I finally found some, so I have two cups of this.




Fissidens adianthoides, osmundoides, and dubius (?).
In the field I thought they all looked exactly the same, but I can see now that some of them have longer "stems", they are just brown on the older bits.
If you guys could have seen the grimy places these came from, these are some tough little mosses. I have a newfound respect for what mosses are able to tolerate out in nature.
Once I get new growth on these they should lush up and look more like their best selves.
I collected some data from The Flora of North America, and they write that the stems should get approximately 85, 2-21 and 25 mm long, respectively.
Bryoides is the smallest of my four with its 3-11 mm length.










I got a lot of various Fontinalis samples, this was even after I threw away some samples that I was pretty confident was just more antipyretica.
One of the samples is noticeably softer to the touch and fluffier, im hoping this means its Fontinalis hypnoides.
Since Fontinalis species are such large sprawling mosses, I kept mostly the greenest shoots, and threw away the ratty old stuff. Otherwise I would struggle to fit them in the cups!
I think a clump of Fontinalis would look really striking placed right by one of my filter outflows, then it will be able to show off its best traits.







This one I found growing right next to a creek, but not in the water. I think it may be Plagiomnium undulatum? It has one relative that is used in aquaria, Plagiomnium cf. affine "Pearl moss". Its so pretty, but I figure if it is able to live underwater long term, then someone would have already tried it. Im tempted to throw it in anyway, but im not expecting it to survive.



 

 


Not sure what these are, and the third one is a mix of allsorts that came with some other moss.




This one looks to me like maybe Rhizomnium punctatum ?




This one I think is Pellia epiphylla (or neesiana), it was growing right above the water level just like the guide says. Pellia endiviifolia is sold by Aquasabi, so im gonna throw this one underwater too and see what happens.



 

 

 


Four mossy mosses from various places. This is where mosses get really tricky for me, a ton of mosses look almost exactly the same. I think they should just combine all those species into one called "Mossus normalus" and call it a day, it would be very timesaving I think.

Amblystegium serpens
Hygroamblystegium -varium -fluviatile -humile -tenax,
Drepanocladus aduncus
Hygrohypnum luridum
Leptodictyum riparium
These are all on my list of interest, but they all look a lot like "Mossus normalus" to me.










This one I am quite excited about, it was growing underwater intermingled with Fissidens 
To me it looks like Plagiomnium, maybe even actual Pearl Moss?




Another cup of bits and bobs growing together with Fissidens.
I have a few more cups of random things but this post is dragging on.

Thanks for the heads up @dw1305 , its a shame but I definitely dont want to risk killing the Fissidens I have collected.
My only concern is how well would they do in a cup of water in the kitchen for a while? Im concerned with the lack of circulation mainly. On one hand they were growing in pretty poor conditions when I found them, but on the other hand at least they had some circulation there, and Fissidens fontanus is classified as Advanced so I dont want to upset my esteemed guests.

After ive written this post ill replace the water in the cups with some from the aquarium, that should give the moss something to eat and buy me a little time while I decide what to do..


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
That is a good haul. You really need a microscope to get definitive IDs.


Hufsa said:


> I think it may be Plagiomnium undulatum?


That looks a likely ID. 


Hufsa said:


> It has one relative that is used in aquaria, Plagiomnium cf. affine "Pearl moss".


Almost certainly not a _Plagiominum_ sp.


Hufsa said:


> Not sure what these are


I'm pretty sure they are "leafy liverworts". 


Hufsa said:


> This one I think is Pellia epiphylla (or neesiana), it was growing right above the water level just like the guide says


Is the water hard? We get it in the UK, but always in base poor streams. If the water is base rich? Then it will be _Pellia endiviifolia_, but they are almost identical.


Hufsa said:


> To me it looks like Plagiomnium


That is a "leafy liverwort". 


Hufsa said:


> My only concern is how well would they do in a cup of water in the kitchen for a while?


They should be fine for several weeks. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> Almost certainly not a _Plagiominum_ sp.


Ohh! That changes everything! Just so im getting this right, Plagiomnium cf. affine "Pearl moss". is not Plagiomnium?

Im just a bit confused still, because at the bottom of the link it says:

References and further reading:
Wilstermann-Hildebrand, Maike & Muth, Heiko (2011): Vom „Perlenmoos“ – zwei foliose Lebermoose sind indentifiziert. Amazonas 35, Mai/Juni 2011.

translates to  "two foliose liverworts are identified."

I dont have that copy of Amazonas, so I dont know what the article contains further.

If the Pearl moss is not Plagiomnium then my wishful dreams of keeping Plagiomnium undulatum is out the window  I dont want to throw just any old moss into the tank, that seems pointless and a collossal waste of time, so all the ones I figured I could test have to at least have a relative that is ok underwater, otherwise there is no reason.




dw1305 said:


> I'm pretty sure they are "leafy liverworts".


Ah, that looks more right. Ive just gone through the entire Jungermannia section again but its eyewatering work.



dw1305 said:


> Is the water hard? We get it in the UK, but always in base poor streams. If the water is base rich? Then it will be _Pellia endiviifolia_, but they are almost identical.


We dont have Pellia endiviifolia here, but I would guess that we trend on the neutral to acidic side based on how our tapwater usually is.
How do you reckon it will fare? It seems Pellia endiviifolia is a little bit more demanding than ordinary mosses, but im sure you all know how optimistic I am about my plant growing skills.

Thanks so much for looking over the mosses for me


----------



## Hufsa

I almost forgot this picture I took earlier of Sir Snootenpoot




He looks like hes out on the moors on a particularly windy day


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> they should just combine all those species into one called "Mossus normalus" and call it a day, it would be very timesaving I think.


I am so on this page. My Java moss and my spiky moss are now completely intermingled and I now have no idea which is which.


----------



## Hufsa

Yesterday I got about 90% done setting up the autodoser, the only problem is that the last 10% of the job is doing the calibration and I find it to be such a royal pain in the ass.
So last night I decided that I would do it today, which of course I did not 

Instead I have serviced one of the filters, since they have both been untouched for like 6 months. Everything was good in there, smelled very nice and earthy.
6 months is probably the longest they should go unserviced in my setup, I had noticed the flow seemed a bit slower.
I really like having two filters, I dont think ill ever want to go back to just one on a big tank.
The prefilter, coarse, and fine sponges got a bit of a pressurewash under the tap, I know its not technically correct to do it like that but its just so effective at getting the dirt particles out.
The medium sponge was just scrunched gently in the filter water and ceramic media sloshed a bit up and down, and that was that.
I reckon it was okay to do it that way, the prefilter and coarse sponge is mostly for mechanical filtration, and the fine sponge will affect the flow too much if it doesnt get cleaned properly I think.
So even if it was a bit of a big cleaning for one filter, I should hopefully get away with it since there is another filter left entirely untouched.
Im thinking ill do the other one in about a week and a half.

After that I removed the zip ties from the wood and arranged them a little bit nicer. I put in a third bit of wood as well and did a whole lot of rearranging of the plants.
Somehow I ran out of space very quickly, despite having the same amount of plants as when I started rearranging. Not sure how that happened.. 
Then my energy ran out and I just focused on putting the rest of the plants somewhere they will be okay to wait while I recharge my energy bar 

Sorry about the cloudiness, its just GH powder I added to the top-up water after the filter service.








@Wookii was right about negative space, I definitely need to remove plants from around the pink areas, just need to figure out where im gonna put em.. 🤔
Im thinking I need a fourth bit of wood somewhere around the orange line to make the triangle flow a bit better.
I think I should fill in a bit at the top left and right, but keep a little bit of a dip in the horizon as shown by the blue line.
And the yellow area looks wrong to me, I dont know what plants would look good and grow well here, I plonked some moss and tripartita there just for the time being.
..Oh and im not a 100% on the placement of the leftmost wood either  It might need some tweaking or something more drastic..

I will let it sit like this for a bit and see how I feel about it, it should become clearer with time. Im happy to be one step closer to something I like though (despite what it sounds like) 

PS: The Hydrocotyle verticillata seems pleased, sending out a lot of little runners with tiny umbrellas. And the Pinnatifida is not melting and is putting out new sideshoots 
Maybe the third time IS the charm?


----------



## John q

The tank is looking fantastic 👍


----------



## Hufsa

I grabbed this shot for another thread but might as well put it up here as well. 
I cleared up the sandy areas a bit and then promptly filled them in again with some of the native mosses.

A lot of them were growing already in the cups, so thats promising. 
The thing about testing moss species especially is that they dont just have to survive underwater, they have to thrive and I would preferably like to see them survive through the slightly higher summer temperatures as well before I conclude anything about their suitability.

The big mossy thing on the right is Fissidens bryoides on a coconut, then the medium mossy rock infront of the cave area is Fissidens osmundoides, and the two little buddies to the left is F. adianthoides and F. dubius respectively. All the tiny stones have various mystery mosses on them. I still have left to get the Fontinalis in the tank, and a few other things.
The Fissidens-es-es have rotated their tips towards the light, and I hope to see little shoots emerging soon through the net. All four were found growing properly underwater, so I kinda expect them to do okay in a tank, provided I dont keep them too hot. Currently running winter temperatures at 23 C.

All the other plants look to be doing well, the Sagittaria is putting out some thick new leaves which is nice to see. Blyxa is still recovering from the abuse and not looking all that, hopefully they will come back to their former size once they get some momentum. Pogostemon helferi also still picking up speed, I think it had been in the 1-2-grow cup for a bit too long, so the shoots were translucent and green, and it has spent a little bit of time to grow new shoots with the right color.


----------



## Hufsa

Lazy picture dump sunday 

My last picture almost looked like someone had intentionally made a decent scape, and then I went and ruined it on friday somehow 🤔




I was just gonna do a good sized water change, but then I decided I should first get rid of all the debris and dead plant material that had gathered up in the nooks and crannies over the past months. One thing led to another and then suddenly all the plants were out in buckets and I was thorougly vacuuming everywhere.
I ran into some trouble with the wood and couldnt get it positioned back exactly how I had it.
I think I also put the plants back in a little bit more efficiently, because it suddenly looks much more sparse.
Ah well, im sure I can get the lush look again eventually.

I did do a trim of around 1/3 of the Bolbitis leaves, they had some BBA on them and id rather give the plant some room to make new ones.
Aside from that, there is very minimal algae, in fact I still havent cleaned the glass of the tank since I set it up, which was what, april/may? Pretty damn good if you ask me.

Individual plant updates:






Hydrocotyle verticillata is putting out a bunch of new little toadstools, they have a wonderful size and really add contrast to the look with their slightly turquoise green color.
My SO really likes the look of this plant as well, which is a nice bonus.
Not having any issues with this plant so far, even though the pot I received was, well, not exactly Tropica style brimming with plantlets.
There were just a few lanky sprigs and half the leaves had broken in transit, but I just needed a small amount to get my umbrella colony going.




Sagittaria still growing nicely, it doesnt seem to mind the substrate at all. The shrimp and snails are picking off the old damaged leaves in an orderly fashion, which means I dont have to do any work hehe  The patch and location is prone to collecting a lot of debris, I think it will be better once I spread it out over the tank, then it wont be such a trap for stuff.




Fissidens bryoides looks to be growing okay on the coconut, I see little shoots coming up, although they are hard to capture on camera. They seem a little bit thin but im not sure if its just a phase, predation or something else.








Assortment of mystery mosses, the rest of the Fissidens species, and a grouping of Fontinalis. I expect most of the Fontinalis samples to grow out looking exactly the same, which is good because then I can remove some of the pebbles and make more room. There are no shoots coming out yet, but its early days still.
I also got the clump of P. helferi split up and spread out, I wanted to let it establish some growing tips first before disturbing it.
The susswassertang needs a haircut, its shedding all over the tank, and I realise I dont know exactly how one is supposed to trim it.
Is it a snip snip type of deal or do I have to retie it?





Sir Snootenpoot is on probation after I caught him one afternoon chowing down on my Blyxa 
He was eating the older growth, but I didnt quite agree that it was so bad that it needed to go quite yet, and I dont know if he was planning on stopping once he munched himself further in.
I bought only one snail in the first place precisely for this reason, because at least some of them eat plants, and I also had heard conflicting advice wether they did ok in neutral water.
Neutral water for sure has been fine, his shell has good solid growth. For the plants, well the jury is still out.

I shifted the Tiger crypt out into this corner with the Blyxa, I couldnt resist pulling it up a bit so I could see the roots and rhizome, even though I shouldnt have. The long rhizome it had from the shop is gone, seems like it has absorbed it. It had some nice white roots under there, I hope it wont take great offense at my little peek. I think this corner will make a good home for it, it gets decent flow, medium light and I can dedicate the space to the Tiger and move away any plants that get too pushy. IF it should feel like growing a lot or spreading, then there will be room for that as well.

I finally got the Osmocote from german Amazon, so I can whip up some little root tabs for it to see if that makes it happier. Also bought some red clay, the online store sold only 10 kilos as a minimum, and the postman was concerned it would break the mailbox off the wall. At least I will have enough red clay for the rest of my life? 😅
I was thinking covering the Osmocote pellets in a bit of clay, to help keep the released nutrients from entering the watercolumn.
I would like to dry the clay a bit before I put it in the tank, but im not sure the Osmocote will tolerate even lightly drying in the oven..?
Airdrying is of course also an option, but not as satisfying for impatient folk like me





I got the poor little sprigs of Hygrophila polysperma planted finally, they are not recovering like I have expected, very pale still.
This is one of many plants who I get the impression are hungry, all of the java ferns are also continuing to shed old leaves in a nitrate hungry sort of way, and this and other clues makes me think I should up my macros. It could also be that the amount of iron that was sufficient before, is no longer sufficient with the increase in plantmass.
I still havent calibrated my doser, so dosing manually including catch-up every few days, not ideal 
My TDS is not increasing much, which supports my gut feeling.

To the left in the previous picture are the only two leaves that are left of my Anubias coffeefolia 😢 I took it out hoping to propagate it the other day, and a bunch of leaves fell off.
I discovered the rhizome had rotted greatly in a short amount of time, and I couldnt cut all of it off without having nothing left. So there is a small brown patch on the remaining rhizome.





Should I toss it in case it is contagious?






Bucephalandra sp Red finally looking a little bit red at the stem, and putting out new interestingly khaki colored leaves. Some of the oldest leaves are not in great condition, I know.
I dont think you can trim off every slightly iffy leaf off buces, you soon wont have any plant left. It seems to me that buce is a long term management plan type of plant.




Pinnatifida has shed some of the emersed grown leaves now, its err.. looking pretty bare. Some little shoots on the bottom doing something, who knows.
But if this try also fails then I will have to stop trying, its getting ridiculous.


I havent commented on all the bubbles in the Full Tank Shot, my shrimp colony contracted Scutariella at some point during the summer.
Unless it is something that exists in the tank at all times like certain types of bacteria, then it must have come in with the damn Amano shrimp.
So after procrastinating for way too long I finally dosed the tank with Praziquantel yesterday, and for this medication it is recommened to oxygenate the water well during treatment.
It seemed to work instantaneously, the affected shrimp just rubbed the parasites right off their noses as soon as the meds were in, and I havent seen any Scutariella since.
They lay eggs in the shrimps carapace, so I will repeat the treatment for a few weeks to get rid of this disgusting thing for good.







So yeah, im running a limewood airstone and the feisty eheim venturi at the moment.
Aside from the noise (which the SO has already complained about), I quite like the velocity im getting with the venturi.
Now that the top left corner is more densely planted, the flow was having a hard time going around to meet the water from the front left outlet, but no problem with this velocity.
It might be a bit violent for the plants at the back, although im sure there are two extremely happy filter shrimp getting their faces blasted back there somewhere.




Ill leave you with this really crappy photo of the Super Red and Crassicaulis duo, it looks pretty nice in real life, it was just impossible to get a good shot with all the bubbles going infront of it 😁


----------



## Hufsa

With the holiday frenzy over with, its a good time to update the journal.
The balance of my tank has shifted quite a lot, most of (although not all) the plants are growing better, but ive also had a quite large flush of algae of all kinds.
Including what looks like some types of brown algae, very peculiar to get this in a mature tank.
The algae selection includes BBA on leaves, green thread algae, brown algae smudges on the glass and on some leaves, and algae in the sand at the front.
Plus green spot algae on hardscape as well as at least three different kinds of strange funguseseses/fungi growing on select branches of the wood.

The algae flush doesnt seem to be passing on its own, so I will need to figure out what is causing it so I can fix it.
Unfortunately for me a lot of things were tweaked or added, so its not an easy task.

Here is the tank in all its crusty glory




My toadstools are growing well, they seem to have settled in and I think they will be on board for the long run.





Some of the leaves should really be trimmed off, but ive been wearing sweaters constantly and havent been bothered to roll up my sleeves yet 😁

On the rock to the right in the first pic is some dying Scapania undulata, I found it growing green and lush in a creek, however from my research and the state of this sample it doesnt seem like it can tolerate aquarium temperatures, even the modest 23 C my tank is running. Its a shame, its very pretty in the wild.

On the right in the second pic are various pebbles of mystery mosses, all of them got a heavy trim a few weeks ago, and any that had died were removed. Most of them are growing questionably and very stringy, although a couple are growing in a weeping fashion downwards. Aside from collecting the mosses, which is a very hands on process, the whole moss experiment is wonderfully low maintenance once they are in the tank. Its just a matter of waiting and seeing what happens. Right now im not convinced the project will be very successful, but does it really matter? I dont think so. Sometimes I just get the urge to try (and fail at) something on my own.

My wild caught fissidens species are not very happy.
Im quite sad about this. I was fairly confident that they would take but they are growing so stringy.



This is Fissidens bryoides before the trim. Decently green but very thin looking.
I gave it a trim hoping it would grow back more thickly, sometimes plants get confused when their growing conditions change drastically, and the initial growth is weird.
For most established aquarium mosses trimming is almost always good.
The wild Fissidens doesnt seem to think the same, algae has taken hold amongst it and the second batch of shoots are even more poorly than the first one.



Maybe it would have been wiser to replant the shoots from the first batch and discard the stuff under the netting. Its too late for that now, but I will probably try it next time. If the Fissidens fails I will try again with samples taken in the height of summer, the temperatures then should be much closer to aquarium temps than it was when I collected these ones right before the frost came.

My buces all seem happy, I can tell that they are getting more food now.



This is the Black Ventii in the center, its really hard to capture the beauty of this variety on camera, it reflects strongly with blue, green, and red iridescence.
The base color is a dark blackish green with new shoots a lovely olive color. I see I have two very dominant shoots now, I need to spread them out a bit more, otherwise they will stop the growth of the shaded shoots.
The iridescence is just under my relatively normal-spectrum lights. I have a pet dislike for sellers of buce who take pictures under extreme purple spectrum lights, making their buces look all kinds of crazy colors. Sure, yes they will look all purple and magical but it also makes your hand and your aquasoil look purple so who is really dealing with reality here?




My Fontinalis samples have finally made it through the netting, it seems the large nature of these species meant the shoots had a very hard time navigating through the holes.
They are due for a trim soon, otherwise I think they will grow very scraggly. I was planning to just chop off the tips and let them branch and regrow, but in light of the Fissidens maybe I would be better off replanting the shoots? I should definitely use a more open method of securing the moss if I do that. Then again it seems more vigorous than the Fissidens... Ill need to give it some more thought, please post what you think I should do in this case.




Pogostemon helferi has transitioned nicely from the weird 1-2-grow cup I got, although it could be a darker green and slightly more dense.
The Sagittaria is still happily trucking on, its a bit dirty but overall health is good and its spreading.
The two smudges on the glass is some of the new brown looking algae. Its not super easy to rub off, which I find interesting.

My substrate has turned into a total mess, with detritus, crud and poop everywhere. Simultaneously I have had an explosion in the amount of snails and shrimp. The snail explosion could probably be frightening to some, but I have chosen to take it as a sign of better tank health. When the tank was neglected for months over summer, the tank almost ran out of calcium, which is only a realistic possibility when you have fairly soft water to begin with. Meaning its not a real risk for most UK tap water users.
Im confident calcium was running very low as most of the Physa snails were getting very eroded shells and actually dying from it. The population didnt seem to be replacing the lost adults either. I also wasnt seeing any baby shrimp at all. Im hoping the snails will reach equilibrium soon, as right now they are absolutely everywhere. I hope they are earning their keep by keeping the tank clean. A while back, when I first introduced the Physa snails, I did notice an increase in tank cleanliness. It seems to me a factor that is often overlooked.

Another reason why the snails are booming is that I have rehomed some of the livestock. The two fishsticks were growing very large, and I felt they would be happier in a dedicated setup. They were feeling increasingly cramped and knocking loose a lot of plants or getting stuck while trying to navigate through the tank. A nice local fellow took them as well as Sir Snootenpoot. I was very upset to let the good Sir Snoot go, he had developed a real taste for Blyxa and other plants suddenly. He had a lot of personality and I will miss him.
The only stock in the tank now is ~6 Otocinclus cocama and ~13 Boraras brigittae, plus snails and shrimp.
I think a very light stocking is a good choice for my circumstances.

The fishsticks have probably been eating some of the snails as well as stirred up the sand, so I think their removal is one of the causes of the tanks dirty state.
I dont have anything that disturbs the substrate right now, I should maybe get a small shoal of corydoras again, but I want hastatus instead of pygmaeus and they are difficult to source. My otocinclus dont seem to like to be alone on the bottom, and are hiding a lot more.






Thread algae in the water column and a lot of BBA, shown here on the older leaves of the Bolbitis, although new leaves are wide and look healthy.
Nesaea/Ammannia is growing fairly straight but the stem and leaves are thinner than how I have grown it before.
Super Red is Super Unhappy, I havent the faintest clue what makes this plant tick to be honest. The only thing I know is that it really doesnt like to be trimmed in my tank, but that doesnt tell me a great deal.




I made homemade Osmocote root tabs with two balls of Osmocote covered in a ~2mm layer of clay, which I let air dry. I inserted a few of these root tabs around the Cryptocoryne striolata Tiger. This was a while ago, around the same time as the algae flush, and is a potential cause in my mind. The Blyxa seems quite a lot happier now, but if that is because of the root tabs, the removal of the snail that kept eating them or that they have simply just gotten properly rooted now, I wont be able to say.
The crypt is continuing its nonchalant indifference for now.




Hygrophila polysperma is regaining its size, although it is still looking a little red and sunburned.

Some other potential causes for the algae:
03.11.21 the front light was increased from 10% to 15% to ensure enough light to the plants at the very front, the part of the tank furthest from any lightsource.
The blue channel was increased to be the same level as the rest, instead of just a fraction.
20.11.21 I added the airstone and the diffuser, but this shouldnt contribute to algae unless CO2 levels were higher in the tank than in the atmosphere previously?
10.12.21 I had run out of ferts and mixed up a new batch with a general increase in fert levels based on plant responses.
My notes say "Plants seemed hungry under previous regime. Double dosed at the end, better but not perfect. Java ferns shedding leaves, hungry plants not taking off. TDS barely increasing. New recipe around 1/5 EI"
The autodoser is up and running again, very good for my consistency deficiency.

Dosing levels here for sake of consistency:
Macro weekly target:
6 ppm NO3
0.6 ppm PO4
6 ppm K
0.5 ppm Mg

Micro weekly target:
0.06 Fe DTPA
0.12 Fe EDTA
0.026 Mn
0.016 Zn
0.015 B
0.0021 Mo
0.0033 Cu

I think the changes in the light and/or the Osmocote are far more likely to be the cause of the algae than the increase in ferts.
I will change the light back and see if that fixes it, and if that doesnt do the trick I will consider trying to remove the root tabs.

Oh yeah and the pinnatifida keeled over and died again, sorry @Karmicnull 
I cant grow this plant, I dont think it gets enough CO2 in this setup.

Scutariella has reappeared on the shrimp two times now. The first time was expected, since the parasite lays eggs inside the shrimp that hatch at a later point. The medication doesnt kill the eggs. But I see parasites on the shrimp again today, so I dosed a third round. I may need to do this in a proper controlled fashion rather than just dose whenever I see them reappear. I think I did it this stupid way because I was unsure of the correct interval. I may have been dosing slightly too late to prevent them from laying eggs again and then its an eternal merry go round unless I shorten the interval. I dont know when I dosed the second round, it appears I didnt write it down anywhere, shame on me.. The first dose was 20.11.21 and the third today, 01.01.22. The second dose was probably sometime mid december then.

I think that was most of it, wish you all a good new year and let me know your thoughts if you can 😊


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## Karmicnull

I'm gutted.  My visions of a Pinnatifida-filled future have been dashed apart. On another note I can't grow anything red with the exception of A R. Mini (or A.R pale brown and ridiculously large, when it comes to my tanks), so sympathy for the super red.
Cheers,
Simon


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## Hufsa

Soo I have just placed an order with CO2 Art... 
Ive fought off the increasing amount of dark whisperings for over a year but resistance has proved futile. 
Im really excited to try hybrid tech, low-medium light and low-medium CO2  
Looking forward to seeing how the plants respond to the change in just carbon, hopefully grow my existing plants more robustly and being able to grow some more difficult species. I want to be able to propagate and distribute some rarer species and I think this will make it much easier to do that.

I plan to remain a low tech peasant at heart and hope the readers of this journal are not too disappointed with me 😘


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## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> Im really excited to try hybrid tech, low-medium light and low-medium CO2


Hi @Hufsa 

It might be interesting and useful to know if you're able to quantify the lighting and CO2. The latter of these is not too difficult - be that the humble DC colour, or pH + KH values (despite its shortcomings). Lighting is not so 'easy' unless you own a PAR meter and spectrometer. Or, you could try one of the many apps that are possibly better than nothing. I've used this a few times:






						(Free) Lighting Tool
					

Hi Folks,  I'd like to suggest an easy way to get an idea of the RGB balance and colour temperature of aquarium lighting. It may even suggest the dominant wavelength of the light being emitted from your lighting. All that's needed is a white piece of paper and one of many phone apps that are...



					www.ukaps.org
				




JPC


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## shangman

Absolutely no judgement  I love both my lowtechs and my high tech tbh, it's always nice to try something different and it doesn't mean you're betraying lowtech!! tbh in very happy with my lowtechs they're just as good and lush but darker light. I think having more people like you in high-tech is great, it doesn't all have to be the same thing, I think the aesthetics of a few people make it seem like it's less versatile than it is!


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## Hufsa

jaypeecee said:


> It might be interesting and useful to know if you're able to quantify the lighting and CO2. The latter of these is not too difficult - be that the humble DC colour, or pH + KH values (despite its shortcomings). Lighting is not so 'easy' unless you own a PAR meter and spectrometer. Or, you could try one of the many apps that are possibly better than nothing.


Im not sure if I will be able to do much quantifying JPC, so it wont be a very scientific study by any stretch of the imagination.
I am however planning to keep my lights set to exactly the same as before CO2, and then spend a good amount of time just observing what effect the addition of the gas has.
I think it will make for interesting observation, but I doubt it will prove anything.

I find what goes for "evidence" in the hobby to stretch over a fairly large range.
If I eat 5 carrots today and my mother in law suddenly visits tomorrow, it would be silly of me to conclude that an excess of carrots cause MIL's and therefore "Im never eating vegetables again!" At the other end of that range are proper scientific studies, the likes of which our little hobbyist "experiments" will never get close to. I prefer to base my observations on slightly more solid grounds than the former, but have no illusions about its quality beyond that 😁


Over to the topic of my tank and the algae bloom, I doubt I will learn very much from this one. A lot of things changed around when it started, and ive already made way more than one adjustment to the tank to bring it back on track, as quite frankly the sheer variety of algae and the speed it arrived at had me wanting to fix the bloom as soon as possible. Ive cleaned one of two filters, did a partial water change and trimmed off a fair bit of affected leaves. While I was doing this I noticed how bad the flow over the substrate had become, and I am still midway through the process of changing over to spraybars again, since they give such superior flow in relatively hardscape-light tanks. I also took out some of the hardscape, I wasnt feeling the composition any more, its even uglier now but at least I have better flow, hey-o 😄

I should try to let the tank stabilize and find its non algae-filled stride before I add the go-go-gas, if I can muster the patience for that 





Completely unrelated: The bolbitis has put out much fatter leaves after I increased the ferts

Ill try to remember to grab some more photos tomorrow


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## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> I find what goes for "evidence" in the hobby to stretch over a fairly large range.
> If I eat 5 carrots today and my mother in law suddenly visits tomorrow, it would be silly of me to conclude that an excess of carrots cause MIL's and therefore "Im never eating vegetables again!" At the other end of that range are proper scientific studies, the likes of which our little hobbyist "experiments" will never get close to. I prefer to base my observations on slightly more solid grounds than the former, but have no illusions about its quality beyond that


Hi @Hufsa 

Yes, I agree with most of what you say. In my opinion, we have to begin somewhere. And that gives us a foundation on which to build. But I fully respect your viewpoint.

JPC


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## Hufsa

@jaypeecee
Yeah it is nice to have at least a little something to go on, otherwise all of it would just be complete guesswork


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## John q

Hufsa said:


> Ive fought off the increasing amount of dark whisperings for over a year but resistance has proved futile.


Haha welcome to Mordor. 👍


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## Hufsa

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Hufsa
> 
> Yes, I agree with most of what you say. In my opinion, we have to begin somewhere. And that gives us a foundation on which to build. But I fully respect your viewpoint.
> 
> JPC


I gave your reply some more thought yesterday and I just wanted to make sure what I wrote didnt come across overly pointed, or directed at you in any way. 
I got a bit worried it didnt come out the way I wanted and wanted to make sure we're on the same page with that 😊 

I try to be mindful of only putting out (what I think is) fairly good information on the internet, to make myself feel like im counteracting the large amount of sources that state vague notions as a proven fact, and that really confuse the heck out of beginners. I probably dont always succeed but I think it is a worthwhile aim to have in mind at least. 

We have come a long way in our understanding of how to grow aquatic plants in the past decades, not really so much from dedicated science (there hasnt been much of it from what I understand), but from experiments done by hobbyists. Im very grateful for that, otherwise we would still be really afraid of macronutrients and think of aged aquarium water as the holy grail. Sharing ideas and theories (word used with the non-scientific meaning) bring us forward and allow more people to successfully grow plants.
There also appears to be several very different ways of growing aquatic plants successfully, and I wish people would stop trying to argue about which method is the "bestest most right-est" one and rather focus on more productive things like figuring out why they work. Maybe something can be learned if we look at the methods and compare the successful elements of them.

Your experiments @jaypeecee are a fair bit more rigorous than the little tweaks I do, and im following all of them with interest 

As usual im not sure where I am going with all of this, mostly wanted to write down my musings on the matter 😄


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## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> I gave your reply some more thought yesterday and I just wanted to make sure what I wrote didnt come across overly pointed, or directed at you in any way.
> I got a bit worried it didnt come out the way I wanted and wanted to make sure we're on the same page with that 😊


Hi @Hufsa 

You need not be concerned at all. I had no problem whatsoever with anything you said.



Hufsa said:


> Your experiments @jaypeecee are a fair bit more rigorous than the little tweaks I do, and im following all of them with interest



It's good to get some positive feedback as it's _greatly_ appreciated. Thank you! Everyone contributes to the knowledge of what goes on in our tanks. Having said that, I can fully understand that Aquarium Science isn't everyone's 'cup of tea'. But it's a great feeling to know when one has advanced our knowledge if only a teeny weeny bit. And only we as hobbyists are going to make it happen. Just look at what Diana Walstad has done for the hobby. 

JPC


----------



## Hufsa

Im having a tough day today health wise, so my apologies if im a bit off, but I wanted to share a little update on our mossy adventure.

Pictured: Fissidens bryoides




Yesterday I set out to rescue some lanky sprigs of Fissidens from the clutches of the algae growth that has been ever increasing.
I had started with the biggest stone (that according to my picture records should be Fissidens osmundoides).
I was trimming off the green sprigs, trying to seperate them from the hairy growth, when I saw a tiny little Fissidens shoot, that was growing -out- of the algae. "What?"
I dont have a proper microscope (yet), but we do have a little handheld USB one.

I put some of the "algae" under the USB microscope.
















Hmm..




So it would appear the algae is not algae, but actually some sort of root/rhizome growth of the Fissidens 
I was quite happy to see this honestly, I thought the Fissidens was so bad off, that the decay was so extensive it had attracted such a massive growth of short hair type algae.
But instead, its been growing.
Granted, growing these weird rhizome root things but still, growing 

Maybe the Fissidens' are still trying to get adjusted from the rude awakening. I pulled them out of some pretty ice cold rivers in the middle of the off season after all.
Now that I know this, I wont trim them and rather continue to observe what happens.
I do hope they will grow more broad full fronds eventually, the addition of injected CO2 soon may make that a bit easier for them.




Fissidens dubius in the center here. This one has the least growth compared to root/rhizome.
I thought I took a picture of F. adianthoides too, but apparently not.
Adianthoides is doing maybe the best out of all of them, quite a lot of green sprigs, although lanky. Ill try to include a picture of it next time.

To the right in the picture above is this interesting little fellow:




I think this stone has the moss pictured here:


Hufsa said:


> View attachment 177017
> This one I am quite excited about, it was growing underwater intermingled with Fissidens



It has greened up a fair bit and appears to be growing happily. I hope this one makes it, its very cute 😊

Edit: Forgot the FTS


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> So it would appear the algae is not algae, but actually some sort of root/rhizome growth of the Fissidens


It definitely does. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Gave the mosses in the windowsill-cups in the kitchen some TLC yesterday.
Several were growing so well they have been promoted to test subjects and placed in the aquarium.
A handful of others were fired for poor performance.

When I started grabbing moss outside like a lunatic my main concern was wether things would grow underwater or not, and I didnt really consider that an almost equally big factor is wether or not the moss will thrive in aquarium temperatures. Just like with the Scapania undulata.
Someone grabbing mosses in the woods in Thailand is likely to have better chances than in Norway, I suspect.

The kitchen isnt freezing but it sure isnt 23 degrees celcius either, the water in the cups is noticeably colder than the tank.
So if these recent additions die, I am going to assume the temperature was the main cause of it, since they were growing pretty nice and green in the cups.





This one has been growing really well, in fact these are JUST the shoots produced since last time I maintained this moss, this time too I threw away the oldest growth.
I think it is Plagiochila asplenioides (?), another alternative is Plagiochila porelloides but that one looks more fancy..
It at least seems very similar to Plagiochila integerrima.

I added a few other leafy liverworts to the tank too, but didnt take pictures of them. Since the cups get highly fertilized aquarium water, there is a fair amount of biofilm growth in them, some cups worse than others. When I added the new mosses to the tank, the shrimp sprang into action and all the new subjects got a full makeover.





I added at least one pest snail to each remaining windowsill cup, thinking they will eat the biofilm and help keep the mosses clean. Hopefully they wont go walkabout outside the cups, if so I have told the dog she needs to eat the escaped snails before my SO steps on one on the kitchen floor. She seemed to agree


----------



## shangman

That moss looks beautiful, super promising. Big fingers crossed it doesn't mind the temp change and grows gloriously!


----------



## Hufsa

Some random notes

Still seeing brown algae on some plant leaves, im definitely suspecting the Osmocote now, for some reason my gut instinct is saying ammonia.
Hard to say exactly why, I think my subconscious has performed some strange meta analysis of everything ive read and decided this is a likely cause.
Brown algae usually in immature tanks -> immature tanks usually have ammonia + sudden extra happiness of plants (from easily edible source?) <- newly added osmocote. Hrm.

Also getting staghorn on some leaves, even after I did a big clear-out of algae affected leaves.
Staghorn makes me think organics, decay, again ammonia  Is there actually a pattern here or am I "seeing faces in the clouds".

I could uproot everything in that corner and extract the osmocote, but do I want to?
The Cryptocoryne 'Tiger' is in the process of putting out a new leaf and im reluctant to disturb it.
Blyxa has also finally rooted in a bit and growing some bigger leaves. Uprooting them would set the plants back to start again.

I could ride out the algae bloom, if the cause is what I think. The Osmocote is a 6 month one, but I doubt it will last that long underwater.
So we're looking at maybe a few more months?
Havent decided yet.
Will give myself a final deadline of deciding before the CO2 goes on, Im planning to get as many Hufsa-shenanigans out of the way before the gas as possible.


Ive got most of the CO2 gear at the moment, although a critical piece is still missing, the reactor.
This one is coming from China, meaning not any time soon. (Note to self: Check insurance covers water damage)
But its good that the reactor wont be here for a while, it gives me time to get everything sorted while I wait.

I feel like ive started my CO2 injection journey at the least normal end of things possible, by deciding which reactor to buy and then working my way back from there to the normal starting point. Ive gone terribly over budget, and spent 4 times what I had planned on this kit 
These new toys better keep me entertained for a while or I will be terribly upset! Just imagine all the kinds of algae I will be able to grow.. 

I havent forgotten my fish in all of this, their safety is one of the reasons the budget had to stretch a bit.
I didnt want to buy some cheap poor quality stuff that will fail and dump a bunch of CO2 into the tank or something else catastrophic.
Ive pondered if they would be safer being rehomed, but im not convinced they would neccessairly be better off with the average aquarist either.
It would be down to luck what kind of fishkeeper they end up with.

Im planning to stay well below the "maximum" levels, this should make the system a little less fragile. The added risk of the injected CO2 is definitely something that is weighing heavily on me. I hope I can strike a balance where the increased plant growth will be a bonus to the fish while I do my best to lessen the risks.
I havent decided exactly what level to go for, I need to do more research..

With all the things Im feeling I need to prepare and nail down before I start injected CO2, I find myself appreciating low tech in a way I havent before.
If I want to change my filter outlet layout and end up leaving one blasting randomly into a sideglass because I got exhausted halfway through, I can do that.
You can mess with the lights, you can mess with the ferts, you can do a lot of stuff and the worst you will get is a little bit of algae really.
Pretty much anything that messes with the offgassing and surface of the tank will be a no-no once I take the plunge.
Or well, if I do I will need to get the CO2 just right all over again.

It probably sounds like injected CO2 is a terrible idea for me but I am also really excited to see what my plants will say.
Im excited to be able to try more plants with the confidence that they will probably be alright in a CO2 enriched system.
I am also really looking forward being able to share mosses and buces and cuttings from plants that will probably be of better health than what I grow so far.

It will make demands but hopefully also give back.

I will end this boring post with a picture of what I think is Plagiothecium undulatum, a sample of which just graduated from the cups and is in the tank somewhere trying its best. It doesnt look quite the same underwater unfortunately, but it has been growing so far.


----------



## Karmicnull

What CO2 kit have you bought? I'm sorely tempted to go down a similar route for identical reasons with my new tank.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Some random notes
> 
> Still seeing brown algae on some plant leaves, im definitely suspecting the Osmocote now, for some reason my gut instinct is saying ammonia.
> Hard to say exactly why, I think my subconscious has performed some strange meta analysis of everything ive read and decided this is a likely cause.
> Brown algae usually in immature tanks -> immature tanks usually have ammonia + sudden extra happiness of plants (from easily edible source?) <- newly added osmocote. Hrm.
> 
> Also getting staghorn on some leaves, even after I did a big clear-out of algae affected leaves.
> Staghorn makes me think organics, decay, again ammonia  Is there actually a pattern here or am I "seeing faces in the clouds".
> 
> I could uproot everything in that corner and extract the osmocote, but do I want to?
> The Cryptocoryne 'Tiger' is in the process of putting out a new leaf and im reluctant to disturb it.
> Blyxa has also finally rooted in a bit and growing some bigger leaves. Uprooting them would set the plants back to start again.
> 
> I could ride out the algae bloom, if the cause is what I think. The Osmocote is a 6 month one, but I doubt it will last that long underwater.
> So we're looking at maybe a few more months?
> Havent decided yet.
> Will give myself a final deadline of deciding before the CO2 goes on, Im planning to get as many Hufsa-shenanigans out of the way before the gas as possible.
> 
> 
> Ive got most of the CO2 gear at the moment, although a critical piece is still missing, the reactor.
> This one is coming from China, meaning not any time soon. (Note to self: Check insurance covers water damage)
> But its good that the reactor wont be here for a while, it gives me time to get everything sorted while I wait.
> 
> I feel like ive started my CO2 injection journey at the least normal end of things possible, by deciding which reactor to buy and then working my way back from there to the normal starting point. Ive gone terribly over budget, and spent 4 times what I had planned on this kit
> These new toys better keep me entertained for a while or I will be terribly upset! Just imagine all the kinds of algae I will be able to grow..
> 
> I havent forgotten my fish in all of this, their safety is one of the reasons the budget had to stretch a bit.
> I didnt want to buy some cheap poor quality stuff that will fail and dump a bunch of CO2 into the tank or something else catastrophic.
> Ive pondered if they would be safer being rehomed, but im not convinced they would neccessairly be better off with the average aquarist either.
> It would be down to luck what kind of fishkeeper they end up with.
> 
> Im planning to stay well below the "maximum" levels, this should make the system a little less fragile. The added risk of the injected CO2 is definitely something that is weighing heavily on me. I hope I can strike a balance where the increased plant growth will be a bonus to the fish while I do my best to lessen the risks.
> I havent decided exactly what level to go for, I need to do more research..
> 
> With all the things Im feeling I need to prepare and nail down before I start injected CO2, I find myself appreciating low tech in a way I havent before.
> If I want to change my filter outlet layout and end up leaving one blasting randomly into a sideglass because I got exhausted halfway through, I can do that.
> You can mess with the lights, you can mess with the ferts, you can do a lot of stuff and the worst you will get is a little bit of algae really.
> Pretty much anything that messes with the offgassing and surface of the tank will be a no-no once I take the plunge.
> Or well, if I do I will need to get the CO2 just right all over again.
> 
> It probably sounds like injected CO2 is a terrible idea for me but I am also really excited to see what my plants will say.
> Im excited to be able to try more plants with the confidence that they will probably be alright in a CO2 enriched system.
> I am also really looking forward being able to share mosses and buces and cuttings from plants that will probably be of better health than what I grow so far.
> 
> It will make demands but hopefully also give back.
> 
> I will end this boring post with a picture of what I think is Plagiothecium undulatum, a sample of which just graduated from the cups and is in the tank somewhere trying its best. It doesnt look quite the same underwater unfortunately, but it has been growing so far.
> 
> View attachment 179977
> View attachment 179978



On the Osmocote, if you suspect ammonia in the water column, do some big water changes immediately if you haven’t already. Personally I’d also test for ammonia to be sure, you don’t want to have any negative affect on your livestock,

On the CO2 side of things, slow and steady will be the order of the day for you. Start at very low levels, and adjust upwards maybe once a week.

You’ve already established a tank with healthy growth, in balance with your light levels. What makes high tech tanks more unstable in the way you describe is not the addition of the CO2, but the higher light levels that come with it. Don’t be tempted to increase light, increase the CO2 slowly and aim for a lower level than typical high tech (I’d suggest maybe half at around 15ppm would be fine) and you’ll be fine, and be rewarded with more vigorous growth and higher DO levels.

PS - that moss looks awesome! Looking up on the interwebulator, it appear to be a UK native too, so I need to keep my eye out and see if I can grow that emersed!


----------



## Hufsa

Karmicnull said:


> What CO2 kit have you bought? I'm sorely tempted to go down a similar route for identical reasons with my new tank.


Oo, hybrid(?) buddies 😄

My gadget list:
CO2Art Pro-Elite Dual Stage CO2 Regulator
   + CO2Art Tubing
   + CO2Art DC Solution
   + CO2Art Spare washers
2 x 6 kg CO2 tanks bought from a local guy (£317 filled)
Yidao external CO2 reactor
Camozzi Needle valve
JBL Dropchecker
JBL Bubble Counter
JBL Checkvalve

Dual Stage regulator was a must have in terms of safety for the critters, end of tank dump doesnt sound any fun at all. I went for the one you can extend to supply multiple diffusers / tanks, thinking I might upgrade the aquarium size one day, and I wanted to plan for that. It seems you could split the line with some gadgets on the cheaper regulator, but that one comes with a lower working pressure, which might limit things. Went for CO2Art because of the reputation, customer service and support coupled with what seems to be a decent reg. Im sure there are better regulators out there (at even higher prices), but I think this will be good. Im crossing my fingers I dont have the same regulator experience @KirstyF has had, must have got a real monday reg 😬

The big CO2 tanks cost a fair bit, but I had to have something I wont have to run out and replace every other week, because of my health. I considered getting one big and one small spare, but with two big ones I can switch the "empty" one out and just leave the replacement running, filling up the empty at my own leisure. I wont have to switch the "main tank" back again once refilled. Less switching should also mean less potential for problems with connections, and a more stable experience for the critters. In addition, a small spare tank wasnt THAT much cheaper than a big one, which further influenced my decision.

The Yidao reactor has gotten good reviews from the forum users, I was dead set on not having CO2 mist in the tank so a reactor was an obvious choice. Since they are effective at dissolving the gas, they also seem a good economic choice. I dont fancy having to clean diffusers constantly either. Apparently the build quality of the reactor is not "eheim plastic", but everyone seems happy with it so far (foreshadowing?). Again, make sure your home insurance covers water damage just to be safe.. If the build quality bothers me a lot I can look into building something custom instead, Ill see. The ease of buying something premade won out this round.

@Wookii recommended me the Camozzi needle valve, the standard CO2Art needle is apparently workable but not great. A decent needle valve that keeps the gas rate constant is another safety factor, this one can be locked, so you wont bump into it accidentally and gas your fish. I havent ordered it yet, I will do it a bit later when my wallet comes back from therapy.

Went for JBL for the miscellaneous gizmos, the drop checker seems easy to read, and since im removing the regulator bubble counter to fit into the cabinet, I needed something else to count bubbles in-line. Im hoping the JBL line of CO2 stuff is better made (knock on wood) than their inlet and outlet set, where a piece cracked fairly quickly. If this leaks I should end up with less gas in the tank though, so not quite as critical a piece. Planning to add a secondary check valve on the line as well, to protect the regulator.

Ive tried to talk myself out of it but I think I will also need a decent PH pen. I will be running low levels of CO2 so its not strictly needed, but to get good growth from the plants and little algae I should really make sure I have a steady level.. The Hanna ones are a bit costly, so would have to be purchased later. Ive gathered that the PH pen is more important to buy quality than a "TDS" meter, so im not sure how much I can save on this.

I think I have gained some CO2 knowledge through pure osmosis, just from hanging around on this forum for a while. Started with absolutely zero knowledge, but my practical experience level is still nil. I hope I can avoid some of the common mistakes.




Wookii said:


> On the Osmocote, if you suspect ammonia in the water column, do some big water changes immediately if you haven’t already. Personally I’d also test for ammonia to be sure, you don’t want to have any negative affect on your livestock,


Im kinda suspecting trace amounts of ammonia, if that makes sense. I think my plants and new algae bloom might be taking it up as fast as it is released. The reason I think so is because I havent seen any grumpy faces from the otos, and they are quite sensitive and usually vocal about it if something is wrong. There is also a really large amount of newborn shrimp, little water fleas and critters in the tank at the moment, which might be why my alarmbells havent rang.

I can do a test after this post, just to make sure.
Im becoming increasingly wary of tests, have had too many problems with them going out of date on me and giving strange readings, that sort of stuff.
I know the forum position on tests, but it hasnt been able to win me over until I had experienced some myself, im a bit stubborn in that way.
It doesnt help that the holiness of tests are deep seated from an early age in the fishkeeping side of the hobby, its not easy to rid yourself of that.



Wookii said:


> On the CO2 side of things, slow and steady will be the order of the day for you. Start at very low levels, and adjust upwards maybe once a week.
> 
> You’ve already established a tank with healthy growth, in balance with your light levels. What makes high tech tanks more unstable in the way you describe is not the addition of the CO2, but the higher light levels that come with it. Don’t be tempted to increase light, increase the CO2 slowly and aim for a lower level than typical high tech (I’d suggest maybe half at around 15ppm would be fine) and you’ll be fine, and be rewarded with more vigorous growth and higher DO levels.



Yess! Will go super slow 😊 Im gonna run my tank at the same light for a good while. They do say low light + some CO2 makes the most stable tanks.


----------



## Konsa

Hi there
Sounds like you have a good plan in place.
Osmocote in tanks will last few weeks only before is depleted.The 6 months they advertise is based on it being used in terrestrial setups and is very moisture and temperature dependent.It constant contact in water the nutrients are dumped rather rapidly and that is the reason some have issues with it if added generously.If you don't have active substrate that can bind some of the nutrients the benefits are relatively short lived.Thats why little and often is the best approach with this product. 
I will personally try to resolve(wait out)the algae issues you experience before adding the CO2.Its true the plants will love it but so will the algae present. 
Regards Konstantin


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> 2 x 6 kg CO2 tanks bought from a local guy (£317 filled)


Is that a typo? I'm paying £30 for a 5kg bottle.


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Is that a typo? I'm paying £30 for a 5kg bottle.


I wish it was 😭 3800 NOK to be precise. I checked around the prices in stores and other private sellers and these two were slightly below store prices. A lot of things are more expensive in Norway, but dang that was a fairly steep difference 🙁


----------



## Wookii

Are they brand new bottles?


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Are they brand new bottles?


Seems so, should be approved til 2030.
Id buy older ones for cheaper but there wasn't any


----------



## erwin123

Regarding Osmocote, There is a nutrient 'dump' in the first few weeks (but note that this was done in 40 degree celsius water to accelerate things) but otherwise osmocote is good for about 3 months. Based on this release pattern I have been adding small amounts each week instead of inserting everything all at once. This will smooth out the release curve.

Polyon is far better behaved doesn't seem to be sold retail. Nutricote is sold in the US under the Dynamite brand.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Seems so, should be approved til 2030.
> Id buy older ones for cheaper but there wasn't any



Might just be a different setup in the UK. You can buy brand new bottles and physically own them, and they’ll cost similar to what you paid. 






						Carbon dioxide bottle CO² - 10 kg
					

kurz mit Steigrohr




					www.ggmgastro.com
				




More typically though is you pseudo-rent them, paying slightly more when you first get the bottle, and less then for each refill/replacement. The bottle will be pre-used, and technically you never actually own the bottle, but for all intents and purposes, you could keep it forever if you wished.


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> Im crossing my fingers I dont have the same regulator experience @KirstyF has had, must have got a real monday reg 😬



Yep, they were definitely having a bad hair day when they built that one. Reassuringly, the second one however has been a dream and working perfectly from first fit so 🤞



Hufsa said:


> wish it was 😭 3800 NOK to be precise



Ouch!! 🙁Paid £60 each for brand new 5kg’s (full) and it’s £25 for a re-fill. 

Mind you, I think you guys pay near £20 for a Big Mac and a beer? 😳😂


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Might just be a different setup in the UK. You can buy brand new bottles and physically own them, and they’ll cost similar to what you paid.


Yes that could be it. These ones are mine to keep (I think). Havent signed any documents and the guy didnt mention anything about renting.



KirstyF said:


> Ouch!! 🙁Paid £60 each for brand new 5kg’s (full) and it’s £25 for a re-fill.


Is this to own or rent? 



KirstyF said:


> Mind you, I think you guys pay near £20 for a Big Mac and a beer? 😳😂


Yeah, I think our cost of living is higher than the UK but salaries are also comparatively higher too. At least thats what ive heard. 
I looked into it for you to get some exact numbers, since im not familiar with the prices of those two, a Big Mac will cost you £4.94 while 0,5L of beer on the town will be an average of about £7.51, so £12.45 total. Not quite as bad but still.


----------



## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> ..this release pattern..


Thanks for this, very interesting!


----------



## Hufsa

As a little side note, the journal has got a new name, which is a little bit less of a mouthful 😁 Hope you dont mind


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> Is this to own or rent?



Technically it’s to own.

Some companies do rent so, as low as a £30 deposit, and then swap canisters. If you ever stop you get your £30 back. 

I ‘own’ my canisters, but they still get swapped rather than filled whilst I wait, so if I ever stopped, I’d get to keep whatever canister I had at that time. (No guarantee I’d get my original back) Not sure what for, of course, they don’t make great ornaments 😂

It does mean that I could take them anywhere to get a re-fill if I chose but not much real benefit over renting tbf.

The company I use currently, doesn’t do rental (probably because people pinch their canisters) or fill whilst you wait, but was the only one I could find when I started up. 

They will also deliver swaps to your door for an extra £3.60, so not bad.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Plagiothecium undulatum


Looks likely, if it is quite big moss?


Hufsa said:


> hile 0,5L of beer on the town will be an average of about £7.51,


Norway is officially off my "_places to go on Holiday_" list.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> Looks likely, if it is quite big moss?


Yep, pretty large in form.



dw1305 said:


> Norway is officially off my "places to go on Holiday" list.


Aw 😅


----------



## Wookii

KirstyF said:


> Some companies do rent so, as low as a £30 deposit, and then swap canisters. If you ever stop you get your £30 back.
> 
> I ‘own’ my canisters, but they still get swapped rather than filled whilst I wait, so if I ever stopped, I’d get to keep whatever canister I had at that time.



That’s what I referred to above - the fact that you swap your canister and paid more for it initially than a refill means you are technically renting it, not buying it, even though you don’t have to sign anything or give it back at any point - but if you were to hand it back you would get back a proportion of your initial payment. This is generally the way it works for all gas bottles be they for BBQ’s or welding etc.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> while 0,5L of beer on the town will be an average of about £7.51



😳

Me buying a round of drinks Norway!


----------



## Hufsa

While you lot are crying into your imaginary overpriced beer, I was surprised it didnt cost more! 😂

Horrible timing, but I just came across a deal too good to pass up on a local site, several rare mosses for a good price (Nobody tell my wallet )
I ordered;
Hookeriaceae sp. "Hooker Moss"
Hydropogonella gymnostoma "Queen Moss"
Plagiochila sp. "Cameroon Moss"
Fissidens fontanus
+ small Fissidens sp. of an unknown variety, seller thought maybe "Micro Q"

Im really stoked to get these, Aquasabi doesnt ship to Norway (as well as many many other online stores), so we are a bit starved when it comes to rarities.
Im gonna have all the preciouses




For anyone reading this thinking of buying their first buce or getting into rare mosses. Just dont do it. Not even once. You wont be able to stop


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Hookeriaceae sp. "Hooker Moss"



Careful! 😳


----------



## Hufsa

@Wookii please explain 😅


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> @Wookii please explain 😅


Well I guess I will never know the answer..


Photo dump time instead  As usual im going for quantity over quality so sensitive souls best click away 😁




Did a large waterchange on sunday, took pictures of the flow from the top mounted spraybar for reference. This is the flow of one Aquael Ultramax 2000 through a 16mm PVC bar with 20 3mm holes. I tried 16 holes first but found the flow too strong for the inmates. The holes are all wonky but this is just a testing bar + a bunch of electrical tape. Going to make a prettier spraybar before the CO2 reactor arrives in a months time. Planning to paint the spraybar with Plasti Dip, unable to get Krylon Fusion without paying outrageous amounts for shipping.






Took a few pics from above of the Buces during the water change, its so much easier to see the iridescense from above. Pictured is Kedagang and Black Ventii




Pruned a few plant groupings to sell the surplus, look at the roots on S. subulata. I hear people say sand is no good for plants, they cant root in it etc. These roots grew in 0.1-0.5mm sand, for reference the average grain of sugar is 0.4mm. It doesnt look like theyre having any problems 




FTS from today, the Bolbitis especially got a big prune as it was growing massive wandering rhizomes all over the place. Pruned many more iffy leaves off the right side as well.




Fissidens adianthoides, doing ok but not exactly decorative. If I cant figure out how to grow these native Fissidens species lushly even with CO2, I will probably get rid of them eventually. Theres no point in having a bunch of scraggly stuff around just cause.




@shangman I think the Plagiochila heard you cheering it on, its already sprouting a lot of new little shoots. Im almost scared to get my hopes up but its looking really positive so far 🤞  Guest starring a really fake looking blue shrimp butt 🦐




My Fontinalis colony is coming along great, there are some small visible differences between some of the samples but I havent been able to find any conclusive differences under the microscope yet 








Took a photo series to try to show how fickle photographing buce is. Just a little tilt and it looks completely different. This is Brownie Blue, it has a really strong blue shine 




Black Ventii is is very shiny but in a darker sort of oil-spill kind of way.




This one is unknown variety, I bought it because it was growing grey and red leaves in the store, but so far hasnt seen any of that coloration in my tank.



 


Kedagang and Blue Green. Blue Green is pretty new to my tank so doesnt have many submersed leaves, but so far I cant see much iridescense on it.




Kedagang looks the best from a strange angle, slanted from above, the camera does not like to focus through the glass this way.




Fissidens osmundoides making new shoots after the trim, for personal note it is now on three small lava stones instead of the biggest stone.

Thats it for today folks


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Well I guess I will never know the answer..


Hooker can refer to <"Joseph Hooker">, a famous English Botanist, a <"type of boat">, the <"central player in the front row"> in a rugby scrum, but also a lady who works in the <"Worlds oldest profession">, I'm guessing it is the last option is the one that @Wookii is alluding to.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

dw1305 said:


> I'm guessing it is the last option is the one that @Wookii is alluding to.



How very dare you Darrel, I’m a child of the 80’s! 😂


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> How very dare you Darrel, I’m a child of the 80’s


I think that is <"probably worse">.

It was a grim show, you could tell how bad they are going to be by the angle of the heads of "Cutie and Hunk", greater the angle, worse the show.

For those who are unfamiliar with Willian Shatner's vocal work, here is "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" from <"The Transformed Man">



cheers Darrel


----------



## arcturus

Wookii said:


> Might just be a different setup in the UK. You can buy brand new bottles and physically own them, and they’ll cost similar to what you paid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carbon dioxide bottle CO² - 10 kg
> 
> 
> kurz mit Steigrohr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ggmgastro.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More typically though is you pseudo-rent them, paying slightly more when you first get the bottle, and less then for each refill/replacement. The bottle will be pre-used, and technically you never actually own the bottle, but for all intents and purposes, you could keep it forever if you wished.


Around here (Germany), you can either buy a bottle or rent one. But the prices are not that different. For example, the fee for renting a 10 kg cylinder is ~140 EUR, and each refill costs ~20 EUR. A brand new 6 Kg cylinder costs ~150 EUR and a 10 Kg ~180 EUR and the refill price is also ~20 EUR. With the rental model, you leave the empty bottle in the (hardware or garden) store and exchange it for a full bottle. If you have your own cylinder, you can refill it at any industrial gas dealer. However, cylinders must have a valid certificate to be refilled. Certificates are valid for 8-10 years in a new bottle. When the certificate expires, either you buy a new cylinder or have the cylinder inspected (and usually the valve replaced) and a new certificate issued, which will add to the cost of ownership. The  disadvantage of the rental model is that you are the dependent on the availability of bottles and, of course, you need to have a place near you that offers such service.


----------



## Hufsa

The rare mosses arrived yesterday evening 😄 

The samples were much larger than I expected, and the Cameroon and Queen moss were especially big portions. 
I spent a fair bit of time going through them all, there was a bit of duckweed, riccia and vesicularia/taxiphyllum mixed into some of them, as well as snail eggs that looked like they came from the hunting snail, I cant remember the latin name right now but you know the kind. I quite like the work my pest snails are doing so I would like to keep them employed, and also the hunting snails creep me out, I dont trust those sneaky little predators. So I took the time carefully sorting through it all.

There was even a little passenger, a small bluish black shrimp with fairly light brown eyes. It sat in one of the cups of moss while I sorted and mulled over what I was gonna do with the little fellow. I didnt fancy mixing a different strain with my Blue Dreams, but since I didnt have the heart to dispose of it I decided bluish black was close enough and it was allowed to live with the colony. Later that night I asked the seller if he knew what strain the passenger could be. He didnt, but he said he only keeps Caridina, so that means there is no risk of crossbreeding and wild color babies  The little traveler can live out its shrimpy life with me then, unless the water values are too far out for it. I hope it does ok, I have maybe gotten a little bit attached already.

Back to the moss, I can already tell im really gonna like the Cameroon Moss. Its a very big leafy impactful moss. The Queen moss is also cute, the leaves are very visibly growing every other side a bit wonky-like, and it has the appearance of a bad hair day I feel. 
While the samples of Fissidens were larger than expected, oh lord was I regretting a bit asking for the smallest variety he had 😅 Absolutely miniscule fronds, I had to use tiny pointed tweezers to get the moss arranged on the coconut pieces, as my fingertips were just too big. The seller sent me three mystery samples of Fissidens instead of one, in addition to Fissidens fontanus. I also found some Fissidens in the Cameroon moss, so might have four mystery varieties. 

Im gonna be real with you guys, there are at least four hundred gazillion varieties of Fissidens, and most of them look exactly the same. 
I want to collect mosses, but im gonna try to only collect species/varieties that look distinct from each other. 
I have never heard anyone say "Wow, those 17 different species of Fissidens really tie your tank together!" Not. Once.

I also discovered a problem with operation "Get the Preciousesss". I have to figure out where to put all of this 🤔 The main problem was the massive amounts of Cameroon and Queen moss, and I wasnt about to throw out any bits of these rare mosses I just spent my hard earned money on. The tank has never been a proper aquascape, but now it is definitely a moss holding facility 😂 So will grow out the coconuts they are on, and then offer portions to other hobbyists and downsize the amount I keep.

Will post pictures of the new mosses as soon as I have some good growth coming out 
I have also kept a little secret from you, there has emerged some interesting little things from some of the mossy cups, and it looks like it could be a species of Riccardia, and a smaller one that could be a Riccia sp. Seems like some of the samples contained spores 

Until next time 😙


----------



## ScareCrow

Hufsa said:


> The tank has never been a proper aquascape, but now it is definitely a moss holding facility 😂 So will grow out the coconuts they are on, and then offer portions to other hobbyists and downsize the amount I keep.


Yeah once the preciousesss are yours, your own, your precious it doesn't happen, at least not for me 😂. It started with hookeriaceae moss, then various buces and most recently crypts. Good luck


----------



## Hufsa

ScareCrow said:


> It started with hookeriaceae moss


So would you say you got 

..hooked

..on Hooker Moss?


----------



## shangman

All your new rare mosses sound soooo exciting! V intrigued to see how all your mosses grow over the next year  

I have some cameroon moss, and it grows really beautifully for me attached with thread to wood in my hightech, it does slowly carpet the wood and it's grows out fluffy but in a beautiful neat way. I recently took out all my other moss on the wood (which had algae in it anyway) and got some more cameroon to cover the wood, I think it'll look awesome. So maybe some of your lovely big portion of cameroon moss can go on your hardscape! You will not regret it


----------



## ScareCrow

Hufsa said:


> So would you say you got
> 
> ..hooked
> 
> ..on Hooker Moss?


Yeah, just to be clear in case @Wookii applies his interpretation, it was the moss and nothing else 
From there on it was a long and unexpected journey (trying to get as many LoTR and Hobbit refs in as I can now that you started it).
As @shangman says Cameroon moss is beautiful and it was another that got me obsessively searching for plants.
One thing I found with hookeriaceae moss, is that it's a lot like a cross between a stem plant and a moss. For me in low tech, it grows really slowly, gets outcompeted by most other mosses and doesn't attach itself to anything. I've not been brave enough to trim it so can't say how it would react.


----------



## Hufsa

Here are some microscope pictures of my two mystery liverworts from the cups. Both seem to have emerged from spores, or at least were very small when they hitchhiked along. My mossy cups were sort of a last minute idea for mosses that I didnt think would make it in the aquarium, but that I didnt want to throw out, and in my excitement over the whole project recordkeeping was not prioritized 😅

One of the subjects emerged from a cup of sphagnum moss, the other I am not entirely sure which moss it came with.
I had been out looking in an area for Riccardia incurvata, but was unable to find it. At the same site I did find some interesting sphagnum moss completely underwater, so I grabbed a few bits of that as well as a neighboring moss, and placed them in a cup. So for something to emerge from said sphagnum and actually be the thing I was looking for seems plausible I guess but also incredibly lucky, and I dont want to be too biased when trying to figure out what it is.






Also, at some point I put both mystery guests into the same cup, despite the little voice in my head saying it would be better to keep them apart, or at least note which guest came from where.  Stupid! So I dont remember any more which guest came from the one with spagnum in it  Maybe its a good thing I didnt become a scientist, I would probably be the worst 😂

Subject 1:







It seems to have small branches, but its quite curly and twisty. But it might not be growing to its full potential in my dinky little cup.













I took a crossection of the stem (picture left) to see if it was curved, which it does seem to be. You can also see the curvature a bit on the right picture, which is a little piece that broke off from the main branch. Unfortunately my little handheld usb microscope doesnt zoom in any further than this, so I cant clearly make out the cells and whatnot.

I have a book about mosses here that contains identification keys for all the relevant nordic species, but without visible cells progress is stopped. The book has helped me narrow it down to a few likely "Genus". (Genus? Genuseses? Geni? Octopi?) 





I think it may be unlikely to be an Aneura species, just based on that they seem to be much bigger than this. 
But growth form could be influenced by it growing under water, so I dont know for sure..
Pallavicinia has a midrib, Subject 1 doesnt appear to have that. And the other suggestion was Moerckia but that one also looks quite large. 
So maybe Riccardia incurvata isnt so far off? What say you @dw1305 , who actually knows things.

Subject 2:
This one my first thought was a Riccia, the branching way it grows just looks so much like it. The midrib is very visible compared to Riccia fluitans and im not seeing a clear reticulated pattern like my book says I should. Its quite small in growth, smaller and more densely branched than Riccia I have come across before.


----------



## Tyko_N

I'm no expert in mosses, and probably has the same book as you (so no help there), but I would guess _Metzgeria furcata_ for the second one. _Metzgeria _seems to have a more distinct midrib than _Riccia_, and _M._ _furcata _has a distinct branching pattern similar to the one you have.


----------



## plantnoobdude

id'ing moss seems like an absolute nightmare


----------



## Tyko_N

plantnoobdude said:


> id'ing moss seems like an absolute nightmare


Depends on what you compare it to  When I started my biology studies one of the first assignments was to make an insect collection, and it had to include a "slända" (Swedish name with no taxonomic relevance, basically any insect that's good at flying but is not a Dipteran or Lepidopteran). I managed to catch a dragonfly but couldn't bring myself to kill it, so decided to go with a caddisfly instead. That was a mistake. The thing was covered in long hairs (so you couldn't make out any details) and threatened to break as soon as you looked at it (and they had to be in perfect condition in order for me to get full marks). When I reached the part of the key that called for counting the number of joints on one of their mouthparts (they have a fair number) it was an even race to see which broke first, my nerves or the caddisfly. In the end I switched to a Psocopteran instead, but the experience has left me with a gratitude whenever I have to identify anything else "hey, at least it's not a caddisfly".


----------



## Hufsa

@Tyko_N what do you think about Riccardia for nr 1?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> So maybe Riccardia incurvata isnt so far off? What say you @dw1305 , who actually knows things.


Unfortunately not this time.

edit: It might be <"_Riccardia multifida_">_, _that grows with sphagnum moss.





cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> Unfortunately not this time.


Errr.. about which part exactly?


----------



## Tyko_N

dw1305 said:


> It might be <"_Riccardia multifida_">_, _that grows with sphagnum moss.


Looking around a bit that would be my guess as well for number 1, at least if @Hufsa found it in coastal southern Norway (since it is otherwise very rare around here). If allowed to grow a bit more, each shoot should then divide 2 or 3 times in an even pattern.


----------



## Hufsa

I stopped by the LFS as I had planned, to pick up the JBL bubble counter and extra check valve now that it was in stock, and I was not to get any more plants. 
No room in the budget for plants. None. Zilch 

The clerk asks me if I need anything else.
Thinking: Dont ask for plants, just dont say plants
Me: "Yes I was wondering if you could fish up some plants for me today"
Thinking: Goddamnit 

So I got some more plants 
By rough account ive got some 41 species in the tank now, not counting the mosses from the mossy project.




Bucephalandra sp. Silver Gray up top and the very chlorotic thing in the bottom is maybe Cryptocoryne Silver Queen.
They are quite worse for wear and covered with algae, but ive got my best boys and girls on the job, as you can see.




Bucephalandra sp. Dark Achilles and Cryptocoryne striolata 'mini'.
Senior executive inspector Otocinclus is testing that the leaves are suitable for resting. 
The report is not due til 2025 (you know how it is) but he was able to tell me entirely off the record that it looks like they will be granted approval.




Bucephalandra sp. Pearl Grey




This other pale crypt is possibly maybe Cryptocoryne Queen Vandom. 
It should be a bit easier to tell when they put out some normal leaves, or so I hope.


Not so new plants:




The native Plagiochila is still sprouting up a storm. I have decided to call it Rosie Moss after @shangman 😁 So far so good



From left to right, two pebbles of Plagiothecium undulatum, one pebble of unnamed leafy liverwort.
These ones arent going to make it, I can tell already. They're going brown just like Scapania undulata did. 

On the fairly bare pebble in the back, a piece of the assumed Riccardia sp. is sitting under the net. This one is still green, fingers crossed it grows and maybe a bit faster than in the cup, that would be nice! @shangman  if you could bless this moss as well that would be superb, it seems to do wonders for the growth 😁

On the tank in general, still getting a fair bit of algae, staghorn, green spot, BBA, you name it ive got it. Digging up the root tabs soon and will vacuum the substrate a bit, there is a noticeable buildup of brown dust that comes out when the sand is stirred. Will clean the filters as well, just try to keep everything real clean.


----------



## Wookii

Oh I like the look of that Crypt! . . . and that Oto is gorgeous.

You are fortunate. It looks like your LFS has some very rare treats!


----------



## Maf 2500

@Hufsa very nice pictures as usual, especially the one @Wookii reposted above. Is Ms senior executive inspector a zebra oto? (Otocinclus cocama?)


----------



## Hufsa

Maf 2500 said:


> Is Ms senior executive inspector a zebra oto? (Otocinclus cocama?)


Indeed 😊


----------



## PremierFantasy88

Hufsa said:


> Senior executive inspector Otocinclus is testing that the leaves are suitable for resting.
> The report is not due til 2025 (you know how it is) but he was able to tell me entirely off the record that it looks like they will be granted approval.


😂😂😂 I like this


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Errr.. about which part exactly?


A name, but then I had a thought and an edit with 


> It might be <"_Riccardia multifida_">



cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

"Algae and sickly plants" - a Hufsa (TM) evening special




Ugly staghorn/BBA on my lovely little umbrellas  I think the main cause is just that my tank has gotten too dirty, it really needs a good cleaning but I didnt have time today.



 

 




I thought this was a neat process to show in picture. For just being otos, neocaridina and tiny snails I think they do a pretty good job.




A lil while back I saw that I was about to kill off yet another batch of Ludwigia Super Red, so I increased my lights by 5% on each bar and placed the immensely stunted stems front and center in the flow from the spraybar. Two stems have slowly unstunted, nice. I think this plant needs a certain amount of light, an amount which I am usually hovering right around the lower limit of. This is the main backside to using low light to limit algae, some plants will not do so great and some will straight up refuse to grow, like really light loving plants. All plants have individual requirements, and some will have narrower ranges than others. I got Christel Kasselman's wonderful book on plants for christmas, and a few pieces of the big puzzle have clicked into place in my brain because of it 




My Blyxa is continuing to increase in size, which is good but not so good for the Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger'. Next water change I will relocate the Blyxa to prevent them overcrowding it. The Tiger has wonderfully patterned leaves, but grows so slowly. _sigh_ This leaves it very susceptible to algae. I pinched off two of the worst BBA infested leaves after taking this photo. I think im going to have to really avoid creeping amounts of algae and any outbreaks if I want to get any decent mass on this plant. Im holding out a bit of hope that it will grow faster with better CO2 supply.




Similar but not exactly the same, the new Cryptocoryne striolata 'mini'. My phone decided that some of my pictures were gonna be yellow tinted today, and I could not persuade it otherwise, sorry about that. Will be interesting to see if the differences in leaf pattern even out significantly once I get leaves that are all grown in my tank. This one has a surprising amount of leaves actually, despite the pretty dismal conditions it was living in. Maybe its slightly easier to grow? Heh, one can hope. If Santa is listening I would also like a unicorn while hes up.

Ive done some reading on Cryptocoryne striolata, and they all say it is a slow and difficult grower, that prefers slighly acidic water. Plus, striolata does not seem to produce runners. Such a shame really. In order for a plant to be sustainable in the hobby it really needs to be able to be propagated.




From another angle. The Buce Dark Achilles in the background will be an interesting one, since so many report that it does not like to grow underwater. I took a closer look at the leaves and they all* appear to be emersed grown leaves, on Buce you can sometimes tell because the undersides will be beige/brown looking and sometimes a bit dirty. *The only leaf that looked to be submersed is the greener slightly curly one left of center. The plant also had like 4-5 leaf shoots it had started on but abandoned, peculiar and interesting  I wonder what caused it to abandon those. I pinched off all but one of the abandoned projects to make the plant a bit easier to monitor.







Cryptocoryne 'Silver Queen' is so pale, I really feel bad for this poor plant. All of these rare crypts and buces are from an import from Borneo one of my LFS did over a year ago. Usually we only have the Tropica selection of plants available locally, and whatever plants the odd enthusiast keeps. Back then I was not so confident in my plant growing skills, so I didnt pull the trigger on any crypts or bucephalandra. I think I have mentioned it before but I really admire the tenacity of these plants. The Dark Achilles for example, those emersed leaves were probably grown on Borneo somewhere.. and its just been sitting underwater for months and months, in really suboptimal conditions for plants, just waiting.. waiting for the time to start growing again. Im really looking forward to seeing the first leaf on the Silver Queen, if that is what it is. The tanks were labeled, so theres only so many candidates it could be. When I hold this plant up under the light it has a silvery pink sheen almost like a buce. I will try to capture it on camera some other time if the effect persists. I see it listed some places online as Cryptocoryne regina 'Silver Queen', but I cant find much info on C. regina.







Cryptocoryne sp. 'Queen Vandom', one picture in yellow tint and one in slightly washed out normal light. This truly is the height of documentation.
This variety is, from the few pictures I have found online, supposed to have light green leaves, with green stripes and a pattern of pink glitter-looking dusting. A bit like Silver Queen but also not, hm. Also very excited for new leaves on this. (Edit: Almost forgot, this one was one of several runners in the LFS tank, so I think I will be able to propagate it!  )




I tried to capture the muted grayish green tones of the Buce Pearl Gray, but I only got gray. Better luck next time I guess 😅




I have figured out why I like this little mystery moss so much, the fronds grow out curly like the young shoot of a fern.




Motherskrip




Queen Moss is slowly sprouting new tips. I put waayy too much moss under this net, I should have done half the amount but I did done ran out of coconut shell that day. Denser is not always better, because the moss will choke itself under there if it is moss on moss. I should replant it soonventually now that I have bought more coconut, unless laziness takes me.




Its difficult to tell in the picture but the large masses of Fissidens rhizome is sprouting new fronds.




Lastly, crowded C. 'Tiger' 😅 I will help it no later than this weekend. Promise!


----------



## shangman

With unusual beautiful plants like those at your shop, nobody can fault you for not being able to resist!!! I don't have any space left and I'd still buy all of them too 😂 Cram em in.



Hufsa said:


> The native Plagiochila is still sprouting up a storm. I have decided to call it Rosie Moss after @shangman 😁 So far so good
> 
> View attachment 180695
> On the fairly bare pebble in the back, a piece of the assumed Riccardia sp. is sitting under the net. This one is still green, fingers crossed it grows and maybe a bit faster than in the cup, that would be nice! @shangman  if you could bless this moss as well that would be superb, it seems to do wonders for the growth 😁



I'm honoured!! 😍😂

~~~I bless these mosses, may they grow strong, healthy and green with no algae amongst them at all~~~


----------



## Karmicnull

I reckon that if UKAPS was a large multinational corporate, Hufsa would be SVP, advanced moss research.  
On a different note, which are you finding easier to grow: Cryptocoryne striolata 'mini' or the Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger'?  I love the look of both of them, but I'm getting really stingy about new planty additions as I'm running out of room.  Ok technically I probably ran out of room a while back, but, hey, the fish don't _really_ need all that free swimming space I'd set aside for them, right?


----------



## Hufsa

Karmicnull said:


> I reckon that if UKAPS was a large multinational corporate, Hufsa would be SVP, advanced moss research.


Only if I got the job by lying heavily about my qualifications! 😂



Karmicnull said:


> Cryptocoryne striolata 'mini' or the Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger'?


Right now I would recommend neither of them, all literature states that they are not good aquarium plants, and I am frankly astonished that I havent killed them off, given my track record. The mini variety I have only had for a few days as well, very early days still.

If you want a strongly patterned crypt I will suggest Nurii, the Rosen Maiden variety is beautiful and high on my wishlist. This one is established in the hobby and something that can be propagated.
I will for sure keep the journal updated with how these exotic crypts do, if for nothing else than to document why no one should buy them.
Im also going to keep my eyes open for any alternatives to striolata that has this attractive pattern but is easier to grow.
There is still a few specimens of Cryptocoryne ferruginea in the LFS, which is said to be slightly less impossible to grow, and some populations of this species seem to have patterned leaves as well. Im just absolutely skint right now 😅


----------



## Hufsa

Been working on getting the tank into shape for the past few days, filter cleanings on friday, last night I got a fair bit of the gunk in the sand out, and did a very large waterchange. I felt uncomfortable disturbing the substrate so much, but it didnt feel like I had many options for getting it all out. Ive never really had an issue with particles in the sand, but I have always had digging corys, so they would have wafted away the particles before they built up at all.

I need a better system for vacuuming the sand lightly every now and then. Im thinking it should be done every time I replant an area at least. I tried doing it using my long python hose but that did not work very well. Buckets and a short piece of hose works, I know, but the bucket fills up so fast and you risk overflowing if you arent paying very close attention to it.

In desperation I ended up just stirring the crap out of the sand and then doing a 80% water change right after to get all the cloudy water out.
My otos were unsettled after the water change, which didnt help the nervous feeling I had in my gut. I tested the water for ammonia, but there wasnt a reading. I would rather take their word for it than the test though. It was getting very late at night and the second batch of change water was not warm enough yet, so I decided to get up really early today and do another big waterchange. In the morning no otos were on the glass or swimming around, a good sign. I did the waterchange anyway, and just like last time they became active. They react a fair bit to the water level getting lower, I think they are scared of being stranded in a small puddle. They always do this, and the lower the water goes the more upset they get. This is before any new water has even entered the tank. When I started refilling they were restless but seemed ok, sometimes they like to sit on the mesh cover of the refill pipe, maybe they even like it? So I think the change in activity level was just them reacting to the disturbance I caused and that there was a water change at all. That it doesnt neccessarily indicate that the change was a bad thing, just that they noticed change, if that makes sense.

I will continue to monitor them closely, ive got another batch of water warming up so depending on my gut feeling I will do another large waterchange either later today or at some point tomorrow. The balance of the tank has no doubt been disturbed by me taking all the plants out and in and doing all these things.
I should have planned to do the filter cleaning after the substrate gunk instead of before, that was not very smart of me.


On friday I also finally got the courage to connect the regulator to a CO2 tank, it went much better than I feared. Pressurised gas makes me very uncomfortable but this wasnt so bad. I followed the CO2Art "Aquarium Regulator Leakage Detection Procedure" and have left the tank alone since then.






Friday and saturday respectively

It seems to be holding steady, although I feel like maybe working pressure (second dial) has gone down overnight, is that supposed to happen?
I didnt get a good picture of the working pressure on friday, so I will purge the regulator now and set the experiment up again, and take better pictures of the second dial to compare before and after.

Sorry about the boring post folks, I will try to get some pics and write about something more interesting once the proverbial dust has settled 😅


----------



## Garuf

I like a good wordy post.
I never intended to have one, but having a “farm” tank where I can test out plants before putting them into scapes has been super valuable for me. My issue is I am a hoarder by nature so throwing out species I no longer have space/use for is always a painful one. If more space for tanks were at all possible I’d have something easy to handle like a 60x30x30 only for testing and holding onto species.


----------



## Karmicnull

Garuf said:


> I am a hoarder by nature so throwing out species I no longer have space/use for is always a painful one.


I am so with you on this. Even though I know it will be easier - and cheaper - just to buy it again if it's a common species. It goes against every instinct.


----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> My issue is I am a hoarder by nature so throwing out species I no longer have space/use for is always a painful one. If more space for tanks were at all possible I’d have something easy to handle like a 60x30x30 only for testing and holding onto species.


Ugh I feel you on the hoarding, I have a solid copy of the hamster gene (thanks dad ).
My tank is already running horribly low on space, I feel like I need at least 2 meters more of tank to put all my precioussess in.


Karmicnull said:


> I am so with you on this. Even though I know it will be easier - and cheaper - just to buy it again if it's a common species. It goes against every instinct.


Tell me about it  I struggle just throwing out individual sprouts of Sagittaria, I ran into a lot of problems yesterday when I was trying to replant everything. I was happily replanting every single bit Sag into cute little streets in the foreground when I realised I had forgotten entirely about the bucket full of mossy rocks that I needed to fit in there  My space-induced panic increasing sharply, I managed to just about squeeeeeze in the last mossy pebble, when I realised once more I had forgotten some plants, all the buces were still waiting for me on the coffee table 😭 I ended up just shoving them into random bits of java fern, and leaving the problem for another day, otherwise I think I would have cried 😅

I generally feel like I have to keep every single bit of plant that grows in my tank, which then builds up to untenable levels and then suddenly the plant is overtaking the tank so much I sometimes throw the entire species out, which I do not really want to do. So I have to keep repeatedly telling myself "Its ok if you just have 5 stems of Pogostemon helferi in there", "You dont actually need 500 kilos of Bolbitis".. 

I would have made it much easier for myself if I threw out 2/3 of the Sag yesterday and kept just a little bit for detailing. But as the americans say, hindsight is 20/20.


----------



## Hufsa

Ive been playing with a few ideas, I thought I would write them out in the journal to get it all sorted in my head.

Being the last bit of equipment I need, the CO2 reactor is estimated to arrive around feb 10. This is an aliexpress estimate, so means it can arrive around then, arrive 6-12 months later, not arrive at all, or arrive and turn out to be a pair of sunglasses. But like a physics problem, lets assume friction = 0 and that it arrives around that time.
The tank probably wont be optimally stable by then, but then again theres not a lot of things in life that is optimal so thats just gonna be how it is 

A few weeks ago I noticed how much the banked sand had slid down and settled at the front of the tank, no doubt this process was accelerated by the digging activity of the fishsticks. The sliding of the sand planted a seed of annoyance within me, which was watered further by @erwin123 and @plantnoobdude having fun experiments with lean dosing and rich substrate without me 
So I started thinking what if I redid my substrate a bit, and I could go for Tropica soil in mesh bags in the bottom, and then cap it with a decent layer of sand, which I would spruce up a little bit by adding some percentages of the larger grain sizes.
In addition to my current 0.1-0.5mm there is available 0.3-0.8, 0.7-1.2, and 2.0-3.5mm.
Whenever I see someone's tank has mixed sizes of sand and gravel I always think it looks really nice and natural, so maybe I should just dive in and go for it..
Having some rich substrate in the bottom should make it more probable with success on lean dosing.

Having a few issues with OCD, I immediately figured that I will need to calculate the exact percentages to add of the different sizes, probably in a sort of exponential way, to make the result look the most natural. Yes, I can also see the wonderful irony in that line of thought 
I have also been thinking of going for a slightly less steep slope, to make it a bit easier for the sand to stay in place. 0.1-0.5 is about as fine as you will get for aquariums, and it moves very easily. When I set up the tank I went for a slope that banked up to 1/3 of the tank height, this was in hindsight totally outrageous and looked very strange without equally dramatic hardscape to go along with. Needless to say its not banked up to 1/3 any more. I shuffled it back a bit when I was getting the gunk out yesterday, so we will see how it does in a slightly more moderate slope and no "help" levelling from the fish.

I kinda want to keep the main basis of the sand the 0.1-0.5 size, mostly to spite people who say plants dont grow in it.
I think there is something wrong with my personality, because as soon as someone says you cant do something, my response is immediately:

"OH YEAH?! ..We'll see about that!"

I just cant help it.

But I definitely want to do CO2 + inert substrate for a while first, based on the same contrarian principles mentioned above. Im thinking to make things simple I will just go full EI when I turn on the CO2, otherwise im going to have to play whack-a-mole with deficiencies for ages and the fun of doing that has somewhat fizzled out.

Another unrelated idea that has been swirling around in that noggin of mine is gradually increasing my GH to see if it helps my shrimp tolerate large waterchanges better..
Lots of things to try in the future! Im excited


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I have also been thinking of going for a slightly less steep slope, to make it a bit easier for the sand to stay in place. 0.1-0.5 is about as fine as you will get for aquariums, and it moves very easily.



I feel your pain - I tried banking the silver sand in my tank, and it only took about a month for it to go flat. Lesson learned, I'll place it flat from the get go next time.



Hufsa said:


> I kinda want to keep the main basis of the sand the 0.1-0.5 size, mostly to spite people who say plants dont grow in it.



I suspect that is one of the many aquarium myths. My silver sand is quoted as being 150-250u (0.15-0.25mm), whilst being clearly too light to stay banked, it appears to have no problems growing plants in it - though I do have a nutrient rich base layer, however I suspect that has little to do with a plants ability to grow in it.


----------



## Garuf

Banking only works if you have something holding it in place, case in point I did have a very nice bank in my 45f until I put in amanos before the carpet was established and within a month it was flat.


----------



## Hufsa

Hmm if a month of "successful banking" is the average, then 9 months with digging fish suddenly doesnt seem so bad 🤔😁
Just about everything we add to an aquarium requires some kind of maintenance, substrate unfortunately not an exception, though I wish it was 😄
If it only slides down a bit over around a years time I think I can live with it, but if it doesnt last that long then the effort is not worth it to me and I will need to go for something else.


Ive been working on new spraybars, and last night after extensive finangling I got the new top spraybar of ~80 cm into the tank, it was a pain in the butt with the two crossbeams this tank has, my next tank is going to be completely unbraced I dont care what it costs I dont want to live like this any more 😂
I went for 20mm pipe as it has an internal diameter of 17, compared to the 13.5 of the 16mm pipe. The hose is 16mm internal, so I figured the 17mm was actually closer and should be better for flow. A few extra milimeters shouldnt hurt anyway, it will get occupied by a layer of that brown film that all plumbing gets.
So I got it connected to the Aquael, plugged in the filter and immediately cried out "Oh no!!"

..I accidentally made a singing spraybar 😩

I had read about this phenomenon before, and immediately knew this is what had happened when the spraybar started humming a low oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-

From my foggy recall this has something to do with pressure, harmonics, fluid dynamics and im sure also plasma coil field regulators and some other stuff that goes way above my head. The bottom line is that it will continue its whalesong until I change something about it. I covered a hole with my finger, and this made the singing go from ooo to OOO, so im mildly hopeful that drilling a couple more holes will make it stop being so extra.

I just left it to sing in the tank and went to bed, fixing it will be a problem for future Hufsa and not me


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I had read about this phenomenon before, and immediately knew this is what had happened when the spraybar started humming a low oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-
> 
> From my foggy recall this has something to do with pressure, harmonics, fluid dynamics and im sure also plasma coil field regulators . . .


----------



## Hufsa

Exactly @Wookii ! The flux capacitor has gotten discombobulated


----------



## Garuf

Singing is better than the trick I did once and mix up the in and out and pressure washer jet all the substrate in a 20cm circle straight into the water column covering all my lovely sandforeground in a time before we knew that aqua soil was magnetic.


----------



## Hufsa

This is why soil is bad and if you have to use it it should be shameful and hidden away 😂 Just kidding
I really hate those little persnickety black spheres tho, dont like the look and the spheres dont like my rough handling them like gravel 😁
Put them in bags and cover them with sand I say  (Disclaimer: I have no idea if this works long term but I will probably find out)


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> This is why soil is bad and if you have to use it it should be shameful and hidden away 😂 Just kidding
> I really hate those little persnickety black spheres tho, dont like the look and the spheres dont like my rough handling them like gravel 😁
> Put them in bags and cover them with sand I say  (Disclaimer: I have no idea if this works long term but I will probably find out)


I agree tbh, in the future I'll hide it away it is UGLY, just doesn't look natural and gets all mixed up in my lovely sand. Also a nightmare to plant into unlike lovely lovely sand. In bags and then with extra root tabs is what I'll try with the next big tank (whenever that is 😅).


----------



## Garuf

Yeah. Can’t agree with you there. I’m a soil user through and through, once you know it’s tendencies it’s just unmatched and if you don’t have decorative sand it’s just a dream.


----------



## Hufsa

You know @Garuf every time I see you post I think about the helpful unplanting amano you showed us, and every time the image gets a little bit more detailed in my minds eye. Im not a proffesschhional artist but I have wanted to draw the unplanting amano for a long time now, to realise my vision, if you will. Today I finally just grabbed a pen and jotted it down on a post-it. Today helpful amano is unplanting Sagittaria.


----------



## Hufsa

Hrmm 
Tried fixing my singing spraybar, I had a bit of extra pipe at the end of it so I drilled two more neatly spaced holes and put it back in the tank. 
Sound went from quite noticeable tinnitus to faint tinnitus. Not fixed entirely  There is more sound than I am willing to live with on a permanent basis.
I would like to try adding two more holes to the bar, the only problem is that they will have to be added between two existing holes, messing up my very carefully and orderly measured pattern. This annoys me immensely 
Another option is to use the second and last piece of pipe I have, and make a brand new one with 20 evenly spaced holes, but there is a risk that the problem could still be there.. it seems like a small risk based on how much the sound was reduced by going up to 18 holes, but what if its not enough..? Then ill have two noisy spraybars 
Its possible at least one of the noisy spraybars could be used as the bottom bar going right along the substrate, the Eheim is a different pump so might not sing with that filter..

I remembered a second problem I need to figure out that I had forgotten about, which is that I dont know where to place the CO2 tank inside the cabinet and various complications regarding that. I then spent 30 minutes sitting and staring intensely at the open aquarium cabinet, wrote a long section consisting of 0.001% interesting information and the rest was just me incoherently overthinking and being very unhappy, then I realised no one would be able to follow anything I was writing and deleted the whole thing. 

Basically I think im gonna have to remount the autodoser at the right side of the cabinet, and I will put the spraybar making on hold until the reactor arrives, so I can see how much it reduces the flow.

I have a headache


----------



## Garuf




----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> Heresy



How dare you 

I need a spraybar for the superior flow, and the neon green eheim hook wont solve the cabinet problem unless I use it to hit myself repeatedly over the head until I stop caring about things.. ..unless thats what you meant all along..


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> Hrmm
> I then spent 30 minutes sitting and staring intensely at the open aquarium cabinet, wrote a long section consisting of 0.001% interesting information and the rest was just me incoherently overthinking and being very unhappy, then I realised no one would be able to follow anything I was writing and deleted the whole thing.


Glad to know I'm not alone. 😂 I do all my best overthinking staring into the tank!


----------



## KirstyF

Boy, the OCD’s getting a serious work-out this week. 😂 
Look at pretty plants, smile at fishies, think Zen…..and then bash yourself on the head with the green hook again….if you bash hard enough, you may not hear the singing for the ringing in your ears! 👍😂


----------



## Karmicnull

I picked up a CD of Gregorian monks chanting back when it was trendy to have a CD of chanting Gregorian monks.  More than happy to send it to you - maybe their voices will blend harmoniously with the singing spray bar?


----------



## Hufsa

Karmicnull said:


> More than happy to send it to you




Watch it! ..or else you'll get the eheim hook


----------



## Wookii

@Hufsa - by absolute and sheer coincidence, it looks like I’ve just acquired some of your, now infamous, “Hooker Moss” with a purchase of some Buce from a shrimper on Band!

Hookeriacea Distichophyllum:


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> your, now infamous, “Hooker Moss”


Hey im not the only one calling it that, you can google it  (Just make sure to include the word moss too)

Nice score, looks like a big portion too!
Do you think you will get.. hooked on moss now? 😁


----------



## Garuf

Wanna post me some? Looks a nice moss for texture.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Hey im not the only one calling it that, you can google it  (Just make sure to include the word moss too)
> 
> Nice score, looks like a big portion too!
> Do you think you will get.. hooked on moss now? 😁



I see what you did there! 😉😆

I’ve always been a moss fan (until it comes to trimming it!), and prefer the more obviously neat and leafy types - Cameroon Moss (not technically a moss I know) has always been my favourite, but this new one may top it.

This is how it should look after a year - the uniformity appeals to my OCD! 😂


----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> Wanna post me some? Looks a nice moss for texture.


Were you asking me or @Wookii ?
Im not sure which one of ours would be least likely to be stopped on the border 🤔


----------



## Garuf

Hufsa said:


> Were you asking me or @Wookii ?
> Im not sure which one of ours would be least likely to be stopped on the border 🤔


Did I misremember or are you in Norway? If so, eu so no problem to me here in dk. 

I was joking but also not joking if I get some moss 😜


----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> eu so no problem


Well yes but actually no, Norway is not in the EU, we have a special arrangement called EØS. So its unfortunately not free flow across the border like within EU countries. In addition to this, Norway is really fond of as much red tape and restrictions as we can possibly get away with, so thats very fun. This makes it so that many straight up refuse to ship to Norway as they just dont want to deal with all of it. Im not sure how strict it is to send things out though, theres not a lot of things that is smuggled OUT of Norway, its usually in.

Until recently I would have said Wooki would get to donate some cause it would be EU to EU, but then they decided they really wanted to be a strong independent country and I think we all know the rest. At least they get to keep apple snails now, so thats nice.

Anyway I can try once mine grows out a bit and the temperatures are better. Send me a PM later on so I dont forget it


----------



## KirstyF

Garuf said:


> Did I misremember or are you in Norway? If so, eu so no problem to me here in dk.
> 
> I was joking but also not joking if I get some moss 😜



From the UK, it will be stopped, scrutinised, strip searched, quarantined and by the time you got it, it would have either evolved or devolved into an entirely new species…..if ur lucky! 😉


----------



## Hufsa

FTS as of right now, including reflections and watermarks, cant be bothered to clean those. As usual my phone camera washes out the tops of the plants and steals some of the lovely yellow tones on the Ammannia 




Made a little grow out tank for my native fissidens species using a soda bottle top and bottom. Its been keeping the humidity nice and high so far and I will spray/mist the mosses if needed. You use the cap on top as a little vent. I took samples of all four species from the submersed growth in the aquarium, to grow out emersed and be able to confirm ID's. I want to have secure ID's for these Fissidens species ive tried, so that I know for sure that those species have been tested. So far leaning towards not that suitable for aquariums, just because they dont really grow in a decorative way. Native fissidens experiment will likely be concluded once I have observed submersed growth forms under CO2, and have confirmed ID's on emersed


----------



## Hufsa

Yidao reactor and Camozzi needle valve has arrived, so now I have everything I need to get started 
Will spend the day crammed halfway into the aquarium cabinet getting everything plumbed in and hooked up, if im really lucky it will be ready for the photoperiod tomorrow morning, if not then well, it will be ready when its ready. On to-do list for today is overhauling the hoses on the Ultramax, removing the inline heater and fitting the reactor instead. Moving autodoser to the right side of the cabinet and mounting it (again). CO2 tank moving to the left side, securing the needle valve, non-return valve and bubble counter in suitable way. And then replumbing the Eheim to take the inline heater. In no particular order 
The JBL dropchecker has already been set up in the tank for a little while, im using the 20ppm CO2 indicator fluid so it should be easier for me to get dialed in to my desired levels. I was thinking of starting with an end target of 15ppm, and then I have some allowance for things to fluctuate without exceeding 20ppm. And then long term I think I want to try 20ppm. 

I will see what my otos have to say about it too. I mean that not in a way that I will make them gasp and then back off a little bit, and thats a good level, no no. Just that if they seem grumpy with me for trying 20ppm later on then that amount is not set in stone. Ive gotten pretty good at reading my otos. Yesterday I was ogling a bit of moss with my face plastered to the glass, and one swam up right infront of me, looked me right in the eyes and told me he was feeling peckish. I dropped a little bit of food into the tank and off he went.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Yidao reactor and Camozzi needle valve has arrived, so now I have everything I need to get started
> Will spend the day crammed halfway into the aquarium cabinet getting everything plumbed in and hooked up, if im really lucky it will be ready for the photoperiod tomorrow morning, if not then well, it will be ready when its ready. On to-do list for today is overhauling the hoses on the Ultramax, removing the inline heater and fitting the reactor instead. Moving autodoser to the right side of the cabinet and mounting it (again). CO2 tank moving to the left side, securing the needle valve, non-return valve and bubble counter in suitable way. And then replumbing the Eheim to take the inline heater. In no particular order
> The JBL dropchecker has already been set up in the tank for a little while, im using the 20ppm CO2 indicator fluid so it should be easier for me to get dialed in to my desired levels. I was thinking of starting with an end target of 15ppm, and then I have some allowance for things to fluctuate without exceeding 20ppm. And then long term I think I want to try 20ppm.
> 
> I will see what my otos have to say about it too. I mean that not in a way that I will make them gasp and then back off a little bit, and thats a good level, no no. Just that if they seem grumpy with me for trying 20ppm later on then that amount is not set in stone. Ive gotten pretty good at reading my otos. Yesterday I was ogling a bit of moss with my face plastered to the glass, and one swam up right infront of me, looked me right in the eyes and told me he was feeling peckish. I dropped a little bit of food into the tank and off he went.



I wouldn’t recommend going for 15ppm straight off the bat. Introduce it slowly if you don’t want any livestock issues. If it were me, I’d start it perhaps around 1 bubble every 5 seconds for a day or so, then increase a little each day until you hit your target drop checker colour.


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> dropped a little bit of food into the tank and off he went


What do you feed your Otos, out of curiosity?


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> I wouldn’t recommend going for 15ppm straight off the bat. Introduce it slowly if you don’t want any livestock issues. If it were me, I’d start it perhaps around 1 bubble every 5 seconds for a day or so, then increase a little each day until you hit your target drop checker colour.


Oh yeah I think I didnt write as clearly as I should have, 15ppm is where I plan to "stop" the increasing process. So im still planning to go slowly, I assume the livestock will need to acclimate to higher CO2 levels than they are used to. Slow for the livestock and also no risk of overshooting the target. Might take a week or more I will see.



Karmicnull said:


> What do you feed your Otos, out of curiosity?


This group of otocinclus cocama are unreasonably easy to feed, they eat everything I serve them, not picky at all. Before I had this group of O. cocama I had a group of "normal" otos, and they didnt like fishfood, they didnt like expensive brand Repashy I imported specially for them, they werent enthusiastic about veg, nothing. So I think I have just gotten really lucky with this group. I have no reason to suspect that it differs by species, I think it comes to luck of the draw for the particular group, regardless of species.


----------



## Hufsa

Well, ive been at it pretty much non stop since my post earlier today, I didnt get all of it done, but most of it.

Ultramax is set up with the reactor, Eheim has the heater, autodoser is mounted and most everything is functional again, except my skimmer which has a stupidly short electrical cord and I need to dig out an extension for it from storage somewhere  I sent my query about the decreasing working pressure (second dial) to CO2Art the other day, and today I got a reply, they want me to perform more leak checking with soap so im thinking I will do that tomorrow cause im kinda exhausted at this point 😅
I also need to figure out the reactor, the little black bit seems to let the air out of the reactor (bleed it?), but at some point mostly water was coming out so I didnt get all of the air out and its still very noisy. Also this little black bit wont be able to be used this way once I hook up the CO2 line to it, so I need some sort of solution for that.. I will go read through the Yidao thread again to see if anyone had a fix.


----------



## Hufsa

Figured out the air thing, just tilted the reactor on its head until the air was out. Im glad I put some slack in the hoses. Now we will be able to sleep tonight 
Also put pressure in the regulator and looked for leaks, but couldnt find any 😐 Maybe the slightly lowered working pressure is just how the regulator is when both the needle valve and tank valve is closed 🤔 Doesnt sound right though.


----------



## Hufsa

Bah. Cant seem to get a steady bubble rate despite timing it for 60 seconds and dividing to get a more representative average rate. It keeps shifting kinda unpredictably. It was running at about 1 bubble every 5 seconds for ~6 hours since this morning, with absolutely no indication of change in the drop checker. Carefully tuned it up to 1 bubble every 4 seconds, and when I check the rate again ten minutes later suddenly there are hardly any bubbles at all going through.. Thats when I decided to pull the plug for now, even though im really wanting to get going with high tech. Its better not to start than to start and have to remove the CO2 later if there is indeed something wrong with the regulator.

Checked for a leak again using even soapier water, couldnt see anything, if theres a leak it must be absolutely atom sized because I cannot see any movement of soap bubbles once they have settled. I kinda wish CO2Art had customer support on weekends too, would have been nice not to be stranded for several days.

CO2 is nothing like it says on paper  What good is theory if the whirlygigs dont act like they are supposed to


----------



## shangman

I bought my first regulator second hand and the same thing happened to me, but I didn't realise for a few weeks and it really screwed with things. It's better to have none for now I agree until that's sorted. I think it was a photo with the needlevalve? 

Once I realised the problem I bought a new one from co2art and it's been working great since, definitely call them up because it is essential for it to be stable. I accidentally broke a tiny rubber ring when I set mine up and they were really good at sending a new one asap.


----------



## Hufsa

shangman said:


> I think it was a photo with the needlevalve?


I dont really understand this part, what was the problem you were having?


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> I dont really understand this part, what was the problem you were having?


When I say photo I meant problem, autocorrect** 

The needlevalve is the knob you twist to adjust the amount of bubbles going into the tank

I had a problem where when I set the co2 to the right level (4 bubbles per second), but then I noticed in the tank the amount of bubbles coming out looked different, and realised the amount of co2 coming out was changing throughout the day - sometimes much more than I set, but usually much less. So the needlevalve wasn't staying in the same place/keeping it at the right level consistently.

I also had a problem that twisting the needlevalve seemed to sometimes make a big difference to the amount of bubbles, and sometimes no difference at all as if it was off. Which actually now I think about it may mean it was something else entirely before it that was making it bad. Either way I realised it was way above my pay grade to try to fix, so I just bought a new one and since then it's been ok.


----------



## Hufsa

Ah I see, that makes sense. I have two needle valves in this setup, the one that comes with the regulator, which i leave fairly open (not sure if they can be screwed out all the way without coming loose?), and a second needle valve from Camozzi which is supposed to be better quality. And I use only the Camozzi to set the bubble rate. 
The Camozzi was from CO2supermarket and they sent it to me wrapped in a very thin layer of bubble wrap just loose in a plastic bag  Hope it hasn't gotten damaged from that.

But the main thing i am concerned about right now is that the working pressure was going down even though it was supposed to remain inside the regulator. So needle valve, solenoid, tank valve were all shut, and working pressure (second dial/gauge) decreased and i need to understand why


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> the main thing i am concerned about right now is that the working pressure was going down even though it was supposed to remain inside the regulator. So needle valve, solenoid, tank valve were all shut, and working pressure (second dial/gauge) decreased and i need to understand why



Feeling your pain @Hufsa 

I know just how frustrating this is and no that doesn’t seem right. 🙁

Hopefully they will come back to you soon! 

I think holding off for now is a good decision. It should work, as stated, out of the box, without faffing around.

With all my issues, I somewhat doubted myself and thought maybe I was doing something wrong but the replacement did everything it was supposed to, right from the start, and that is what you should expect IMO.


----------



## X3NiTH

Hufsa said:


> Checked for a leak again using even soapier water



I found leaks that slipped past the soap test by using a small amount of Magic Ballon Paste around joints and seals, if I get balloons then I’ve got leaks if not I let the paste dry out then peel off. I still use the paste to seal the end threads on my regulator attachment instead of PTFE gas tape, seals up a slow leak nicely (CO2 makes it foam as it cures).


----------



## Hufsa

Working pressure has stayed the same overnight this time, hm.
I believe it was also the same from saturday night to sunday morning, and thats why I tried getting started on sunday.

Told CO2Art it has stayed overnight and asked them what they would advise me to do. Waiting for reply.

If I cant get a steady bubble rate, maybe that will help solidify that there is a problem after all.

I am wondering a little bit about the check valves, if they could be affecting things since I am using so little gas..
When I turned the gas on yesterday there were two very noticeable bumps in gas output when the gas finally got through both check valves. 
Could they be a problem for an even bubble count after the initial breakthrough?
I feel like maybe im not explaining it well. Is there any way the amount of gas I am letting through the needle valve is hovering right around the pressure needed to go through the check valves, and therefore the check valves are causing fluctuations?


----------



## Hufsa

Started up again right before noon, recounting the bubbles every 30 minutes or so to check that its staying the same level.
I set the working pressure to 30 to start with, is this the right level for a reactor @Wookii ?
Working pressure decreased slightly once everything had been running for a bit

12:03
18 bubbles per minute (about 1 bubble every 3.3 seconds)
Working pressure one line below 30

12:32
17 ish bpm (might have been 18)
WP one and a half line below 30

13:07
18 bpm
WP one and a half line below 30 still

The dog really needs a walk, im going to go out with her very quickly and then recount as soon as I come back


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I set the working pressure to 30 to start with, is this the right level for a reactor @Wookii ?



I have to admit I'm not sure! I've only ever used one with an inline diffuser ahead of a reactor, which does need a working pressure of around 30psi, but if you're running straight into a reactor I'm not sure. The fact that you are getting a consistent bubble rate suggests it must be fine, but @Zeus. or @Hanuman will have a better idea.


----------



## Hanuman

Not sure I understood all but first thing you do when you get a regulator is make a pressure test of both first and second stage. I won't go through the details as Bettatail has done it in PlantedTank forum. You can trust the procedure, he works in the gas industry. 








						Complete Leak Check, CO2 pressurized system
					

CO2 is toxic in higher concentrations: 1% (10,000 ppm) will make some people feel drowsy.[7] Concentrations of 7% to 10% cause dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour  ---make sure your house ventilation is good, or your system is...




					www.plantedtank.net
				




Regarding check valves, my experience is that depending the type of check valve, specifically those with membranes you will have fluctuations but since those fluctuations are very rapid and at constant intervals you don't really notice them.


----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> Complete Leak Check, CO2 pressurized system
> 
> 
> CO2 is toxic in higher concentrations: 1% (10,000 ppm) will make some people feel drowsy.[7] Concentrations of 7% to 10% cause dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, and unconsciousness within a few minutes to an hour  ---make sure your house ventilation is good, or your system is...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.plantedtank.net


Thanks for this link, I will do the tests after I shut it off this evening


----------



## Hanuman

Realized I forgot to mention about needle valves. If you really want precision then you need to go high end. All these cheap needle valves are basically pretty much crap and can be the source of fluctuations. True quality needle valves can be expensive but they will delivery a constant flow rate and last you a life time. Regulators themselves can also be the source of gas fluctuations.


----------



## Hufsa

Unfortunately I cannot afford to spend more on the CO2 system than I already have, hopefully ~medium-crap level needle valve will work ok enough for my needs. My system wont be running on the bleeding edge of things which I hope will make it a bit more forgiving.


----------



## Hufsa

Hrm.
I was dumb and impatient yesterday so I skipped straight to step 2 of Hanumans link since thats where I suspected the problem is.



> Step 2.
> continue from step one if success, now you have 800 psi of co2 isolated in the first stage chamber.
> A. needle valve open.
> B. Solenoid valve power off(shut).
> C. Turn the regulator handle clockwise to charge the second stage chamber, fill to the regulator default outlet maximum.
> D. Turn the regulator handle counter clockwise(completely loose).
> E. Release the CO2 in the first stage chamber by turning loose the regulator-Tank connection screw(make sure the co2 tank is closed before you do this).
> Now you have CO2 isolated in the second stage chamber.
> F. Wait for 5-10 minutes(to ease the second stage diaphragm elastic issue, psi may drop right after the regulator handle turn loose, then it will stay), record the LP gauge psi reading.
> G. Wait for 6 hours, if the change of new psi reading is within 1/8+ difference of original reading, go to step 3




I left it overnight, so more than 6 hours, closer to 12. The pressure drop was from 64 to 54 psi, which I feel like is a lot but is technically within 1/8 (or 12.5%) drop.
Im not happy with this result, doesnt it mean that there is a leak, its just not a big leak?

I should have started at step 1 to be thorough, so I have done that now.
I just want this thing to work out of the box, this isnt what I wanted to spend time doing  
I have half a mind to just ask CO2Art to send me a new one and Ill send this one back and then they can deal with it, but I dont know if they will agree to that..


----------



## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> I left it overnight, so more than 6 hours, closer to 12. The pressure drop was from 64 to 54 psi, which I feel like is a lot but is technically within 1/8 (or 12.5%) drop.
> Im not happy with this result, doesnt it mean that there is a leak, its just not a big leak?


It's close to impossible to have 100% seal. Some leak is expected. Make sure everything is sealed properly and try again.



Hufsa said:


> I should have started at step 1 to be thorough, so I have done that now.
> I just want this thing to work out of the box, this isnt what I wanted to spend time doing


Yes well that's what happens with sub par hardware. CO2Art regulators are in my opinion in the low end quality spectrum. Not the worst but certainly not above average. I have one myself. Always saw flow fluctuations with that regulator. Between morning and evening flow rates would be 1 to 2 bubbles appart. I didn't bother because that's the nature of sub par regulators and needle valves. I don't even call that a needle valve. It's a nail.



Hufsa said:


> I have half a mind to just ask CO2Art to send me a new one and Ill send this one back and then they can deal with it, but I dont know if they will agree to that..


You could do that but keep in mind what I said above. Keep your expectations low.


----------



## Hufsa

While I was pouting on the couch waiting for a response from CO2Art, I saw the perfect ad for you on Facebook @Wookii


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> While I was pouting on the couch waiting for a response from CO2Art, I saw the perfect ad for you on Facebook @Wookii
> 
> View attachment 181926


Great advert, and OMG great moss 😍😍😍


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> While I was pouting on the couch waiting for a response from CO2Art, I saw the perfect ad for you on Facebook @Wookii
> 
> View attachment 181926



Bargain! 😂


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> 12:03
> 18 bubbles per minute (about 1 bubble every 3.3 seconds)
> Working pressure one line below 30
> 
> 12:32
> 17 ish bpm (might have been 18)
> WP one and a half line below 30
> 
> 13:07
> 18 bpm
> WP one and a half line below 30 still


Rest of the bubble monitoring from yesterday:

14:01 17 bpm WP same as before
14:40 17 bpm WP same
15:37 17 bpm WP same
16:12 17 bpm WP same
17:07 17 bpm WP same
18:01 17 bpm WP same
19:02 17 + 1/2 bpm WP same
Shut CO2 off after this.

So it held the bubble rate fairly steady. Some of the 17 readings were close to 17 and a half but not quite enough to count as it. I should also take into account imperfections in human timing ability but doing it over 60 seconds at least gives you a sort of average bubble per second count with slightly less impact from inaccuracies around the first and last bubble. 

Could a fluctuation of +/-1 bubble per minute be that bad? It sounds ok to me and my gut feeling says my consistency deficiency causes much greater fluctuations for my fish tank than this, but I am not qualified to have a strong opinion on this stuff.
Another thought I had is that the ability to maintain a decent-ish (disclaimer) bubble rate might be a separate thing from a small leak just letting CO2 out of the system constantly. It helps to hear that a 100% seal is close to impossible, I just need to feel confident that most of it is going into my tank and not someplace else.

Argh im so torn. Part of me wants to just roll with it, and another part is not feeling ok about the inconsistent testing and wants more investigations. None of the parts are particularly keen to start taking things apart and cleaning and taping and whatnot.


----------



## Hanuman

You are complicating this a lot. That sort of accuracy is far more than what you could dream of with that regulator.


----------



## Hufsa

Hanuman said:


> You are complicating this a lot.


Yeah... thats me right there 



Hanuman said:


> That sort of accuracy is far more than what you could dream of with that regulator.


So this is.. good news?


----------



## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> So this is.. good news?


Yes. Go for it.


----------



## Hufsa

I will celebrate my reactors unexpected blessing by Hanuman with some pictures of moss, obviously. I even cleaned my glass, isnt that something!





The Hooker Moss has sprouted a lot of little tips. I chopped it up into smaller ~1cm sections when I got it, I wasnt sure if it would take kindly to this but if its going to live in my tank its gonna have to get with the program and not be fussy. So far it seems to have worked out.




The assumed Riccardia sp. is also growing, albeit slowly, as Riccardia does.




Fissidens fontanus




Three out of four tiny Fissidens sp. samples from the hobbyist




Queen Moss is a pretty fast grower, look at this 




Cameroon moss is slower in comparison but working on it




Plagiochila asplenioides(?) did a lot of sprouting but has since slowed down. The older growth is brown because of diatoms.




This picture and the next illustrates my phone camera well. It does whatever it wants with the colors and the intensity. Picture below taken at a slightly different angle is more how I see it in real life. Super Red has moved in with the Hydrocotyle and seems happy there. Spot the new leaf on the B. Dark Achilles


----------



## Hufsa

Some little bits and bobs I need to write down so I wont forget to mention them.

02.02 I doubled the fert dosing, partially to prepare the tank for CO2 and partially because the Ammannia kept getting redder and H. polysperma is slightly pinkish at the tops and I want it to be green.
I realised I havent turned off the filter and taken pictures from above in a little while, so I did that just now. I find it to be much easier to spot problems from above.
It suddenly became much clearer that Hydrocotyle tripartita has been running a little lean for a bit, judging by these pale new leaves.
Its a beautiful little rascal of a plant isnt it, especially viewed like this 😊







From the side they look really pale, but they dont look quite as bad as this in real life. But, I know pink tones are really good at hiding chlorosis, and I do feel they arent quite right.




From above, here my camera chose to make everything yellow  and I couldnt fix it in photoshop without making the Ammannia look wrong.

My bid to increase fertilizer levels hasnt been entirely successful so far, because I am changing stupid amounts of water and not manually replenishing the ferts I am taking out. The autodoser just cant keep up with several 80% water changes every week, its not set up for that.

The reason I am changing so much water is because the bl***y scutariella keeps coming back and I am fighting with everything ive got to get rid of the b****rds 
Since last week I have been doing a one day treatment of Levamisole (Esha ndx) at the start of the week, then a large waterchange the day after as instructions for ndx say, and then a three day treatment of Praziquantel (Esha gdex) after that. Then more water change and repeat.
I dont know if I have managed to get a resistant strain or what but the f****ng b***ers are right back the next day, every time! 
The scutariella that are reappearing are much smaller than the ones I started out with, so I assume I am observing freshly hatched parasites on my shrimp.
I cannot be having parasites surviving treatments like this, its like the textbook way to get resistance and I want them gone, gone gone gone.

I wonder if not all the eggs are hatching at the same time, but that the eggs are held back by the individual molting times of the shrimp. Because I think I read that the eggs are hiding inside the shrimp carapace until the shrimp molts, and then they spring into action. So then it wont be over until every single shrimp has molted, and no adult parasites have survived long enough to lay any new eggs.
I am hoping that if I just keep killing them as soon as they hatch, again and again and again that eventually they will run out of eggs and I will win this seriously drawn out battle.

For anyone reading this I am sorry if it is extra incoherent, I am just so angry and a bit confused.
Normally people report dosing once, waiting two weeks or so, and then dosing again, but this hasnt worked for me.
I dont want to use Fenbendazole because it might kill my snails, and I dont want to taint the sand I have in this tank with snail unfriendly medication that wont come out again.

Im preparing to do another waterchange now, since its been approximately 24 hours since the Levamisole dose, and then dosing Praziquantel right after into the new water.
Levamisole is supposed to be more effective at treating scutariella than Praziquantel, but Levamisole doesnt seem to kill them instantly like Prazi does, so im utilizing a combination. I love seeing the parasites start twitching wildly as soon as the Prazi hits the water, and the shrimp just rub them right off their noses. I dont love seeing new parasites back the next morning 
If anyone reading this is religious, please pray for my tank..


----------



## Hufsa

Oh right I almost forgot in my rage over scutariella. Still getting algae of all kinds, no longer sure root tabs were the main cause, working theory is increase in debris and gunk accumulating in the tank, which was just tipped over the edge by a nice little spike of ammonia from osmocote. Makes a little bit more sense at least, but I dont think thats the whole picture still. There might still be too much stuff in the sand, but right now I have too much other stuff on my hands to do extensive vacuuming. I just feel bad for my plants, they're still getting covered in algae on the old leaves and I had to snip snip a lot of my umbrella plant colony  The buces arent looking great either..
Oh well.. I will keep trucking on - one day at a time like they say


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> anyone reading this is religious, please pray for my tank..



I’m not, but sending positive happy thoughts…..and voodoo-ing the Scutariella! 💀
😉


----------



## Hufsa

KirstyF said:


> I’m not


Me neither 😁 But I figured I could use all the help I could get!


I almost emptied my entire tank earlier without having replacement water ready. Silly me forgot to check if the water barrel was up to the right temperature. 
It was 15 C. Bit chilly!
Gonna sit up and wait until its ready, however long it takes.
I bet the scutariella would love if I didnt dose any meds tonight, theyd be up all night laying eggs and snickering evilly in tiny high pitched voices


----------



## KirstyF

😳 At least you realised before the tank was empty! 

Patience is a virtue though and you will have the last laugh when you have finally vanquished them all…..with treatments and persistence….or the invention of a really really small death ray! 👍😉


----------



## Hufsa

Cant say the JBL bubble counter has had awe-inspiring quality 
Over night it has started leaking from the out port and the check valve inside appears to have failed entirely. 
If it wasnt for the backup check valve I went for I would have had water in my needle valve 
Luckily the whole thing was not connected to the regulator because I was still running tests on the reg.













I will be asking the LFS to send it back as not fit for purpose, I will be very disappointed if they fight me on this. They were not helpful when I had an issue with my brand new Eheim canister, which is ...unfortunate. When I choose to buy an item from a local store despite the higher price because I want to support them, I expect them to at least provide a little assistance if things go sideways. 

The question is also if I should go for another one of the same kind, im not keen to be honest.. 
But then what bubble counter to use instead?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> It suddenly became much clearer that Hydrocotyle tripartita has been running a little lean for a bit, judging by these pale new leaves.





Hufsa said:


> From the side they look really pale, but they dont look quite as bad as this in real life. But, I know pink tones are really good at hiding chlorosis, and I do feel they arent quite right.


It looks like an iron (Fe), most likely, or manganese (Mn), less likely, deficiency. Because the new leaves are smaller and paler than the older leaves it will be one of the <"non-mobile nutrient"> where lack of causes chlorosis in new leaves.  @Happi might have some ideas?

Have  a look at <"Duckweed Index says.....">, this is iron deficient Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum)._







Hufsa said:


> I bet the scutariella would love if I didnt dose any meds tonight, theyd be up all night laying eggs and snickering evilly in tiny high pitched voices


I can hear them.........

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> It looks like an iron (Fe), most likely, or manganese (Mn), less likely, deficiency. Because the new leaves are smaller and paler than the older leaves it will be one of the <"non-mobile nutrient"> where lack of causes chlorosis in new leaves.


Yep, its not unexpected to me because the plant mass had increased without me increasing the fertilizer, and then in addition many large water changes have removed most of the ferts I was dosing.

I ran the doser a little bit manually this morning to get some ferts back in, and I think it will correct itself when the scutariella business is over and water change amounts go back to normal.


----------



## Hufsa

Got a reply to my email to the LFS, of course from the grumpiest employee..... sometimes I wonder why I want to support this store.. Hes saying I "overfilled the drop checker" and thats what caused it. Didnt address my question of me bringing it back to them and wanting a refund. Im not sure what to say honestly. I dont like confrontations but I am very tempted to let this man hear what I think about their customer service attitude and I dont think he will like it very much. Does he not understand that every time they do this it makes me not want to buy from them in the future? Maybe they would lose money on that one faulty item, (unless they send it back to JBL which I think they should,) but they will lose a lot of future sales they will never know about if they're so argumentative about everything.

What do you think I should do? I could use some support


----------



## swyftfeet

Hufsa said:


> Got a reply to my email to the LFS, of course from the grumpiest employee..... sometimes I wonder why I want to support this store.. Hes saying I "overfilled the drop checker" and thats what caused it. Didnt address my question of me bringing it back to them and wanting a refund. Im not sure what to say honestly. I dont like confrontations but I am very tempted to let this man hear what I think about their customer service attitude and I dont think he will like it very much. Does he not understand that every time they do this it makes me not want to buy from them in the future? Maybe they would lose money on that one faulty item, (unless they send it back to JBL which I think they should,) but they will lose a lot of future sales they will never know about if they're so argumentative about everything.
> 
> What do you think I should do? I could use some support


I'm extremely non-confrontational.    I let my wife handle these things.   She ends up usually not only getting a refund but a discount on the next purchase.

Shes like a little bottle of nitro- glycerin ,  you don't walk fast near it, you don't shake it, you don't make loud noises. 

Don't know if that helps, but I thought you'd like to know you're not alone, and solutions to this problem can be slightly "extreme"


----------



## Hufsa

swyftfeet said:


> I let my wife handle these things.


Unfortunately I am the wife and designated returner of things in our household, so I dont really have any way to get around it  Its not really that I am particularly good at it, more like that I am the least bad at returning things.


swyftfeet said:


> Don't know if that helps, but I thought you'd like to know you're not alone.


It helps, nice to not be alone about it.

Theres been some back and forth with the store since my last post. After proving to them that yes, i had indeed mounted it correctly, he said he still doubted that there was anything wrong with the bubble counter, and said I should try running it without the backup check valve because he thinks it will work again then. I told him very politely and with great restraint that I could not do that, as the backup check valve was the only thing keeping water from going straight into the regulator. I told him again that I want to return it, and was told to bring it to the store so they can test it themselves.

I swear to god...


..and the rest of what I want to say about it is not appropriate for the forum


----------



## Hufsa

Havent got any good news to update with. 
My aquarium joy is weak again, I am telling myself it is just taking an extended holiday and will be back once things get better.

I was visited by a rare friend this morning. He thinks plants are stupid and in the way. 
I dropped in some tasty sticks from TA Aquaculture in the area he was hanging out in, and by hanging out I mean angrily thrashing around pushing strands of moss out of his face. The sticks start dissolving after a while and release a lot of food particles into the water column, he seems to like it.





My regulator is still sitting next to the tank waiting for customer support, its leaking too much gas and I want them to replace it at this point.
I wish support would get back to me more rapidly, most of the times its just one email per day and sometimes I wait several days for replies. Maybe they are swamped with customers at CO2Art, but its still frustrating for me as an individual when I feel like this could have been fixed sooner.

I got the faulty bubble counter returned this weekend, and with some unnecessary discussion also got my money back. Despite me saying a few things about it I dont think they are going to be better about returns. I didnt lose my temper and start saying all the things I wanted to say or start crying so I guess the result is passable. Im going to do my future purchases elsewhere as much possible.

Scutariella still present on my shrimp. I thought I could have won before the weekend, had two days when I couldnt see any on the shrimp. But then they were back. Today is monday which means another round of Levamisole. Im so tired of this, and the shrimp are too, sadly.. all the water changes and medication has taken a toll on them and I have lost some along the way  I feel terrible about it, but I dont know what else to do. I cant just give up and let them live with parasites.
Im gonna search even more and see if there is another threatment I can use that wont kill all my snails.

And all my algae is still present. I tried lowering my light a bit more, but I dont know what else to do. 
Theres a thick ribbon of diatoms around the edge of most slow growing plant leaves, staghorn and BBA is growing on old leaves and even stems of some plants, and thread algae is thriving. I dont fully understand what caused the tank to take a turn so suddenly this winter and why its so resistant to recovering. 
I feel like a total hypocrite trying to help out on the forum when I dont even have my own tank sorted, so im going to stop posting much because I really dont like this feeling.
The filters are cleaned, the hoses are clean, im keeping the tank cleaned of old leaves and debris and im removing the worst affected plant leaves on most plants. 

Short of taking the sand out and washing it in the shower I cant think of much else to do? 
I dont feel like one should have to take substrate out and legitimately -clean- it like that, it feels very wrong and bad for the balance of the tank. 
Im desperate at this point so im going to try vacuuming out the top layer today and give it a good rinse.
The sand is the only area I can find any brown particles, everything else I have cleaned repeatedly. 
The algae is confusing me a lot, diatoms suggest to me unstable immature tank, which means it should be left to mature, and staghorn tells me old, built up gunk which means more cleaning is needed. 
WHICH ONE IS IT TANK? HUH? Why are you giving me such mixed signals, thats not fair! 
BBA thrives on imbalance, ill give it that, theres a lot of fluctuations right now. But the BBA is not my main concern.

Im wringing my brain trying to work out what is different now compared to before. I only have a few leads, one being that right now I have no fish living on the bottom, which I have -always- had. I have always had sand, and always had bottom dwellers. Before, I never had this much brown gunk in the sand, and it was only if I dug very deep. 
I have thought about getting some kuhlii loaches, they are an old favorite of mine and I have no doubt they would stir up the sand with their sifting activity.
I have been very happy to have just the otos and boraras, light stocking of fish suits me fine and I wasnt really looking to add more fish. (Unless Corydoras hastatus shows up but they are rare)
It feels wrong to me to get fish to "fix a problem".. The tank should be a good setup for them, heavily planted, fine sand and many hiding places, its mostly my motivation behind getting them that is bothering me. I wouldnt mind having them, with their eely antics, hanging draped over plants like clothes hung out to dry, and their tiny derpy little faces that look a lot like guinea pigs. I will continue to think about it.

The other possible lead on the algae is that I have removed some of the filter media. 
I see so many of the pros on here saying not to overfill your filter, plus @dw1305 who I highly respect says oxygen is the limiting factor in most filters, not surface area / filter media (paraphrased). So I finally felt ready to gradually remove some of my media from my entirely filled up canisters. 
Could the diatoms be caused by that, if the remaining filter media is still working on finding the balance again?
Im aware that some on this forum do not like the word balance, but I think it has its uses. In this case, when I say balance I mean that all the factors in our tanks has had time to adjust to each other, and are working together in a relatively stable fashion.

If you have any input or ideas please let me know


----------



## swyftfeet

I don’t have anything that could help, but I really really appreciated the help you gave me with fertz.   

I think part of the allure of aquariums and aquascaping  is micromanaging “the experiment.” 

Things are bound to go sideways, I know I got unduly attached to my fish that were feeling poorly and I’ve only successfully treated ich once.  

It turns out I poisoned them by not understanding what I was doing and did a water change while using cupramarine.  They all eventually died, and I felt like crap for weeks, convinced this hobby want for me.

I thought maybe if I just made a planted tank and went slower things would get easier. Lmao, regardless,   The interactions with people like you make it fun and you do have a lot to offer.

Keep your head up.


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> I wouldnt mind having them, with their eely antics, hanging draped over plants like clothes hung out to dry, and their tiny derpy little faces that look a lot like guinea pigs. I will continue to think about it.



Keep smiling hon! I wish I could offer sage advice but I think you probably already know way more about this than I do. 

What I can say is that your advice is hugely helpful to lots of people and will be just as helpful, even if you are having a bad patch with your tank right now. Your posts also make people think and make people smile. Folks like you are what makes this forum fab so don’t you be running off on us now.

And…..I’m pretty convinced that anyone who can describe Khulii loach in the wonderful way you have above, is most certainly not keeping them for the wrong reasons! 😉


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I feel like a total hypocrite trying to help out on the forum when I dont even have my own tank sorted, so im going to stop posting much because I really dont like this feeling.


Nonsense! your tank looks great, and I think you're being wayyyy too hard on yourself. as for the algae, how often have you been cleaning the filter? when i had a lot of media i had to wash it every two weeks to maintain flow in my tank. now i have a couple small cubes in my eheim classic filter and it runs mainly as a co2 "reactor".  "oxygen is the limiting factor in most filters, not surface area / filter media" then surely reducing filter media and relying on substrate should work? who's to say, but i think reducing media is a smart choice, keep media clean, and flow consistent.


----------



## Hufsa

Thank you so much @swyftfeet @KirstyF @plantnoobdude and everyone who liked their posts ❤️ Im shedding a few tears as im reading your replies but they are happy tears. 
I can do this.

I got todays water change done as planned. It was a bit of a herculean task with how my health has been lately, but I persevered. I struggle a lot with fatigue and sometimes a water change + a lot of extra stuff is at the limit of what I can manage in one day. I took the mosses and rhizome plants out in buckets (again) and gave the sand a light stir and a good waft in places with rooted plants. I havent been able to see it before because the plants were hiding it but there were a lot of diatoms coating the sand in the back. I didnt know it was quite this extensive, I think the tank is more out of balance than I thought, and I dont think I should hassle the substrate any further. The substrate looked like someone's newly set up tank with a big diatom bloom. Yikes.

Battle plan:
-Defeat evil horde of Scutariella
-Wait for diatoms to recede, ignore most of the other algae
-Buy adorable kuhlii loaches when tank seems more stable
-CO2 addition will theoretically (hehe) make the CO2 levels more stable, could help with BBA
-Plants will grow faster, outpacing the rest of the stupid algae
-???
-Profit


While I had most of the plants out today I caught most of the blue dream shrimp. If only it was as easy as writing this sentence is, it took hours 
I almost put up a quarantine tank for them in the kitchen, but then I became unsure if the filter shrimp can act as carriers, and decided against treating them away from the main tank.
So they are imprisoned in two fry rings floating at the top of the tank. I had much more shrimp than I thought, even accounting for all the ones I have lost, the numbers surprised me. Thats kind of always the case isnt it. Its like when you see one spider, you know that there are probably at least five more spiders nearby, hidden.. (..plotting )
Having the shrimp in the fry rings will allow me to easily see how much Scutariella are present, and will allow me to remove molts quickly, something that is impossible to do in a densely planted tank. I think it will be a little bit easier this way, even if I still have to treat the entire volume of the tank. The amount of medication I am going through for a 250 liter tank with full-out-crazy-war-dosing is 💸💸💸
I hope the shrimp wont be too stressed in there, I harvested some Hydrocotyle they can hide out in and ill keep a close eye on them.


CO2Art have agreed to send out a replacement regulator, im crossing all my fingers, toes and miscellaneous appendages that it will be in good working order.


Some of the Fissidens in my Pepsi bottle terrarium is growing already 🌿


----------



## Courtneybst

You've probably already tried this @Hufsa  but have you tried contacting CO2 Art through live chat? They always got back to me very quickly, sometimes within the hour and stayed on the chat until it was resolved. (It's possible you've done this already in which case this is redundant).

Also, how do you keep your sand so immaculate?!


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> how often have you been cleaning the filter? when i had a lot of media i had to wash it every two weeks to maintain flow in my tank. now i have a couple small cubes in my eheim classic filter and it runs mainly as a co2 "reactor".


Ive been cleaning it approximately monthly lately, but im bad at doing it consistently over a longer period of time, (chronic consistency deficiency) 😄 Im _always_ hoping to improve myself though. How did you notice it was due every two weeks? When you reduced yours, I assume you didnt notice any effect on the tank? Did you do it very gradually?

I think I might have reduced my filter media a little bit too quickly. "What, Hufsa going overboard?! Why ive never-"
Unless all the things I think I understand so far are wrong, a tank with a ton of CO2-enriched stem plants will be better at smoothing over such a bump in the balance, compared to my tank with mostly rhizome plants and mosses. Your tank being the former kind. Im looking to reduce a bit the amount of rhizome plants and get a few more stems in, but I need to sort through a few of my current issues first



Courtneybst said:


> but have you tried contacting CO2 Art through live chat? They always got back to me very quickly, sometimes within the hour and stayed on the chat until it was resolved.


Yeah I did this at one point before I bought the regulator, but it sort of ended up on email any way as it sent copies of the replies across the platforms. I think it depends a little bit on who picks up your issue, the rep I talked to before buying the regulator was fairly quick, while the one I got after I bought it took a longer time to reply. Now they have switched me back to the first rep again for my current issue, I quite like this rep so I dont mind.



Courtneybst said:


> Also, how do you keep your sand so immaculate?!


Oh dear im not quite sure what you mean to be honest 😅 Since ive been struggling lately with it getting dirty between the grains. If you mean like visible particles sitting on top of the sand, its usually a combination of factors. Back mounted spray bars are really good at swooping up debris in the front, I had a lot more sitting on the sand when I had plain pipe outlets. So good flow, but back mounted spray bars will not be optimal for every hardscape layout. Also I dont have any soil in the tank, so there is none of that to make a mess. Lastly I usually have corydoras or something else on the bottom, which Im sure we all know are not cleaners, but they wriggle around a lot in all kinds of places and help the current pick up stuff off the bottom.


----------



## shangman

I go through exactly the same thing as you do @Hufsa, bursts of aquarium joy where I'm happy to tackle any problems head-on, add new plants, watch the fish, think everything is beautiful and I'm not bothered by things that aren't right yet (I've never managed to get things "just right" in my main tanks much to my annoyance). And then times of rage and sadness at algae, or dodgy plants, or a fish dying unexpectedly where I can hardly look at it without feeling guilty that I missed something. And stress of thinking omg I need to fix this asap but I don't know how! I don't really have any advice but just know that you definitely aren't alone and you definitely shouldn't stop posting, though you are allowed the occasional vacation from us 😅


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> How did you notice it was due every two weeks


flow was going down really quick, and i didn't like to do maintenance after the flow dropped, every two weeks worked well with a lot of media.


Hufsa said:


> I assume you didnt notice any effect on the tank?


absolutely none, but I also do have a soft water tank. ammonia toxicity is never really an issue. I reduced the media a little bit at a time, ceramic rings one week, substrat pro the next, then my fine sponges. didn't notice any diatom algae.


Hufsa said:


> our tank being the former kind. Im looking to reduce a bit the amount of rhizome plants and get a few more stems in, but I need to sort through a few of my current issues first


some fast growing stems and floaters might help if you haven't already got some. if all else fails, you can always reduce light, it helps with a lot of things.


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> flow was going down really quick, and i didn't like to do maintenance after the flow dropped, every two weeks worked well with a lot of media.


Hm ok, interesting. Ive only really noticed flow decreasing if ive disturbed the substrate greatly letting a bunch of particles find their way into the filter, or if I leave them for a super long time, like 6 months. But my tank is still low tech, so we should keep in mind that we may be comparing quite different systems.


plantnoobdude said:


> absolutely none, but I also do have a soft water tank. ammonia toxicity is never really an issue.


I have played with the idea of reducing my KH a bit using acid, but it has remained an idea for now. It would mostly be to feel more confident buying very specialized soft water plants like Tonina. It would involve adding a strong acid to my water change barrel using protective equipment, and I would need to have a reliable source of said acid as Im not keen to run out of it suddenly. My KH is 3 out of the tap, but my tap has an unnaturally high PH because the waterworks adds NaOH (Sodium hydroxide / lye / caustic soda) to protect their shitty pipes. Im not entirely sure what the practical effects of NaOH are, but that is my basic understanding as of now. I wouldnt want to go to 0 KH I think, from 3 to 1.5 maybe, I dont know.

On a semi related note, I have introduced a new quality control process for my ideas, which entails me telling at least one normal person about my idea, and seeing if they are horrified or not. If horrified = yes then idea should be reconsidered or at least explored more in depth.



plantnoobdude said:


> I reduced the media a little bit at a time, ceramic rings one week, substrat pro the next, then my fine sponges. didn't notice any diatom algae.


Uhh yeah.. I think I removed about half of the media in one go because I am a deeply flawed human being. A likely reason reason why the diatoms are so extensive right now.



plantnoobdude said:


> some fast growing stems and floaters might help if you haven't already got some. if all else fails, you can always reduce light, it helps with a lot of things.


I could never get floaters to thrive with me, the only time I was able to keep them happy was when I made a basket to keep them in. The basket stole a lot of light from the plants below and was very in the way, so I removed it and the floaters died again.. 
I have _a lot_ of surface agitation and they are just bashed around too much sadly. 
I have considered alternative floating plants, or rather, any kind of plant with access to atmospheric CO2. Having at least some plant mass with the "aerial advantage" seems like such a good safety feature, as their capacity for growth is just much greater. I cannot keep my tank without at least a partial lid, and there is not a large amount of space between the waters surface and the lid. This makes things difficult. One idea is to make a cutout in the lid for a small peace lily or equivalent. I would probably need to install a light for it in the ceiling above the tank but it can be done. Another idea would be something low growing along the wall of the tank in the small gap between lid and water, maybe Hydrocotyle or Ceratopteris. But this wont be optimal space for anything and the light will be poor for the plant..

Cant reduce my light any further, back Fluval is running at 10% and front is running at 15%. I am quite certain I am already hovering right above light compensation point and if I go any lower than these percentages plant growth starts stalling completely and the plants get unhappy. I havent gotten particularly good at growing plants, but I have gotten highly skilled at being bad and I can see the subtle signs the plants are sending me when I am taking things too far.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I have played with the idea of reducing my KH a bit using acid, but it has remained an idea for now. It would mostly be to feel more confident buying very specialized soft water plants like Tonina. It would involve adding a strong acid to my water change barrel using protective equipment, and I would need to have a reliable source of said acid as Im not keen to run out of it suddenly. My KH is 3 out of the tap, but my tap has an unnaturally high PH because the waterworks adds NaOH (Sodium hydroxide / lye / caustic soda) to protect their shitty pipes. Im not entirely sure what the practical effects of NaOH are, but that is my basic understanding as of now. I wouldnt want to go to 0 KH I think, from 3 to 1.5 maybe, I dont know.


this is what i'd do if everything else in my tap wasn;t so damnn bad. 20gh and 30ppm+ No3. to anyone thinking their tap is trash, think again it also had if I remember quite an alarming amount of toxic trace metals so yeah... RO it is.
around 3ml drops kh by 1 point in 20gallons *APPARENTLY. *also remember kh isn't too high or you;ll need A LOT of  oxygenation to keep the tank safe, if I remember correctly the process releases co2.  cough cough no 14kh water pls. It can also melt plants if not distributed well, i'd suggest dilluting it by a lot then dropping it in a power head.
this thread might help








						Dosing HCL, post your experiences
					

The Home Depot product, Klean Strip - Muriatic Acid is also a 32% product at listed here




					www.plantedtank.net
				





Hufsa said:


> I wouldnt want to go to 0 KH


smart, you wouldn't want any residual Hcl floating around the tank!
3 is borderline for softwater plants, 1-2 is much better. i suspect the ammania will perk up aswell, just a hunch.


Hufsa said:


> A likely reason reason why the diatoms are so extensive right now.


they'll go away dont worry! diatoms are the least of your worries imo.
on an interesting note, I have noticed tiny bits of diatoms on the glass in my tank after starting urea dosing, perhaps it's simulating a maturing  tank, who knows.


Hufsa said:


> I could never get floaters to thrive with me, the only time I was able to keep them happy was when I made a basket to keep them in. The basket stole a lot of light from the plants below and was very in the way, so I removed it and the floaters died again..


floater corral?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> So I finally felt ready to gradually remove some of my media from my entirely filled up canisters.
> Could the diatoms be caused by that, if the remaining filter media is still working on finding the balance again?


My guess is not, but you can always put the extra filter media back in. As long as it doesn't impede  flow I don't see any problem with it. 

You should have <"plenty of oxygen flowing into the filter">, purely because <"you have a planted tank">.

I was originally interested in  filter media because it was apparent that people weren't getting the amount of nitrification you would expect from their canister filters. I knew that <"relatively small trickle"> (and <"moving bed bioreactor">) filters could deal with <"huge bioloads"> in aquaculture and sewage treatment, but similar volumes of media were failing to deal with bioloads orders of magnitude smaller in aquariums.

It was at this point I found out about floss, "denitrifying" filter media and the <"syphon aspect  of filter usage">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Garuf

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> My guess is not, but you can always put the extra filter media back in. As long as it doesn't impede  flow I don't see any problem with it.
> 
> You should have <"plenty of oxygen flowing into the filter">, purely because <"you have a planted tank">.
> 
> I was originally interested in  filter media because it was apparent that people weren't getting the amount of nitrification you would expect from their canister filters. I knew that <"relatively small trickle"> (and <"moving bed bioreactor">) filters could deal with <"huge bioloads"> in aquaculture and sewage treatment, but similar volumes of media were failing to deal with bioloads orders of magnitude smaller in aquariums.
> 
> It was at this point I found out about floss, "denitrifying" filter media and the <"syphon aspect  of filter usage">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Darrel, can you elaborate a little? I know that I have the change my fine floss every 2 weeks to be safe and if I lave it 4 weeks I get toxicity issues see “let’s play detective” thread. Is this what you’re talking about?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Garuf said:


> I know that I have the change my fine floss every 2 weeks to be safe and if I lave it 4 weeks I get toxicity issues see “let’s play detective” thread. Is this what you’re talking about?


Yes, pretty much. I think you had an <"extreme example"> probably because of the <"lack of tank maturity">, recent plant trim and CO2 addition, but that is <"the general issue">.


Garuf said:


> So today I get up, do my thing, peer at the tank and find ALL the still living shrimp at the surface, half a dozen dead shrimps stuck to the filter guard and ALL the fish going in circles gasping at the surface and a couple of crispy jumpers. 50% panic water change. Everything back to normal, you'd think nothing happened.....................





Garuf said:


> Cleaned the filter and gave it a really good once through, the floss I'd put in only 2 weeks ago was black, can't believe how dirty it had gotten so fast, good job the 150's are an easy filter to clean......





Garuf said:


> I'm thinking we've got to the bottom of it. Clogged filter floss ........... No gaspers. Seems it really was the filter.


I like to keep all of the <"mechanical filtration outside of the filter body">, so no floss, or fine sponge in the filter, and <"no thick, sticky biolfilms"> inside it.

I let the <"synergistic plants and microbes"> <"mop up the nitrate (NO3-)"> (and all other forms of fixed nitrogen) and then just make sure that all of the the <"filter media is fully oxygenated all of the time">, so that you never get a <"build up of TAN"> or nitrite (NO2-).  

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> this is what i'd do if everything else in my tap wasn;t so damnn bad. 20gh and 30ppm+ No3. to anyone thinking their tap is trash, think again it also had if I remember quite an alarming amount of toxic trace metals so yeah... RO it is.


Oof, yeah I can empathize. Im fairly privileged with my tap water. RO for me is not on the table at the moment, we rent and it wouldnt be a good idea to start plumbing things etc. Once we are in a more permanent and owned location I dream of a semi automatic or fully automatic water change system, which might include RO depending on source.


plantnoobdude said:


> It can also melt plants if not distributed well, i'd suggest dilluting it by a lot then dropping it in a power head.


Some serious calculations and testing would have to happen before I start reducing KH. Also only in a separate water container and then letting it equilibriate with pump or airstone over night. The americans (no offense) are absolutely insane to pour strong acids straight into their tanks and just hope it dilutes before it hits something. I would never ever do that. Sometimes when im going down a rabbithole my journey takes me through plantedtank.net and I have seen pictures of what happens when reducing KH right in the tank goes wrong. Its not pretty.


plantnoobdude said:


> smart, you wouldn't want any residual Hcl floating around the tank!


Yep, exactly my thought.


plantnoobdude said:


> they'll go away dont worry! diatoms are the least of your worries imo.


I think so too, im gonna say diatoms are the least problematic algae and usually all you have to do is just wait it out.


plantnoobdude said:


> on an interesting note, I have noticed tiny bits of diatoms on the glass in my tank after starting urea dosing, perhaps it's simulating a maturing  tank, who knows.


Interesting, but not surprising  Ammonia is a strong signaling chemical in many processes from what I understand, algae especially are tuned in to respond rapidly to it. Makes sense the tank will need to refind its balance once you start adding it, especially if not done super gradually.


plantnoobdude said:


> floater corral?


Ive tried every kind of contraption you can think of, that kind kept letting the floaters out occasionally, and I was also highly annoyed that the floaters escaped every time I did a water change, as well as every time the water level dropped a bit.



dw1305 said:


> My guess is not, but you can always put the extra filter media back in. As long as it doesn't impede  flow I don't see any problem with it.


Hm. If I put the filter media back in now, that wont help anything though would it? Its been dried out for over a week, so surely the bacteria and archaea are dead?
About impeding flow, all filter media reduces the flow through the filter to some degree I think. I buy the argument that for planted tanks, where the plants are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, reducing media in trade for more flow makes sense since we need good flow to run everything "turned up to eleven" (EI and CO2), but dont need massive amounts of media surface.



dw1305 said:


> It was at this point I found out about floss, "denitrifying" filter media and the <"syphon aspect  of filter usage">.


Im gonna admit im still using my filter as a slight siphon. I tried pre-filter sponges but I just cannot keep up with cleaning them every week, and I found that when they clogged, they clogged much more absolutely than the mesh intake screens. Safety wise it was therefore more of a liability than an advantage in my particular setup. The mesh screens keep everything larger than a fraction of a milimeter out, but dont seem to clog in the same way. Since all the debris is on one surface, the otos and shrimp pick at the debris and I think that helps break it down and prevents a bit of the clogging in a way. In addition, for me cleaning the external canisters is easier than cleaning the intakes, so I do it more often. I am definitely on board with that relatively open intakes, rarely cleaned filters and fine floss to finish it all off is a bad idea, and if you have a traditionally lightly planted or non planted tank in addition, its just a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> I tried pre-filter sponges but I just cannot keep up with cleaning them every week, and I found that when they clogged, they clogged much more absolutely than the mesh intake screens.


I've gone to using larger and larger sponge blocks, it means that weekly maintenance isn't essential. I doesn't matter to me that they are so large, I don't do aesthetics and have very weedy tanks.  I use them on filter intakes as well as power heads etc.





I bought a 12" x 4" x 4" (30 cm  x 10 cm  x 10 cm) sponge block (like the above)  last week for £9 delivered, so they are still a cheap option.

cheers Darrel


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Some serious calculations and testing would have to happen before I start reducing KH. Also only in a separate water container and then letting it equilibriate with pump or airstone over night. The americans (no offense) are absolutely insane to pour strong acids straight into their tanks and just hope it dilutes before it hits something. I would never ever do that. Sometimes when im going down a rabbithole my journey takes me through plantedtank.net and I have seen pictures of what happens when reducing KH right in the tank goes wrong. Its not pretty


lol, yeah not the best for safety, someone i used to know poured it in striaght in the tank without gloves or anything. they just like living life on the edge


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> I've gone to using larger and larger sponge blocks, it means that weekly maintenance isn't essential. I doesn't matter to me that they are so large, I don't do aesthetics and have very weedy tanks.  I use them on filter intakes as well as power heads etc.


I try to do aesthetics but aesthetics doesnt seem to want to do me ☹️
I think the sponges with drilled holes like the one you linked will be better than the sponges I had, I just cut a slit in a sponge using scissors and forced it on, but I think in doing that I also pulled on the pores of the sponge and closed them somewhat, if that makes sense. The pores were probably going from an O to a <> which is not good for flow and clogging. Aside from the color I am happy with using fine mesh so will probably continue with it unless my needs change.



plantnoobdude said:


> lol, yeah not the best for safety


Yes to be clear I am not encouraging people to use strong acids and I only mentioned it as a side note when you were talking about KH. 
I have no current plans to lower my KH this way. If I want Tonina etc I will just try them out first in 3 degrees KH and see how it does, and then take it from there.



plantnoobdude said:


> someone i used to know poured it in striaght in the tank without gloves or anything. they just like living life on the edge


I assume you write "used to know" because they have since died in a horrible accident, likely involving some sort of chemical spill.


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> Hm. If I put the filter media back in now, that wont help anything though would it?


Unless you totally stripped the canister of its media, which I'm guessing you didn't then I'd assume "if" the bacteria left in the filter needed to play catch up it would have done so in a few days anyway. 

On a side note AND WITHOUT turning your journal into a water change discussion... Did your algae problems start before or after the frequent large water changes? I'm at work so only just skimmed through the last few pages of the thread but wondering if doing repeated large changes maybe upset the stability of things.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I will just try them out first in 3 degrees KH and see how it does, and then take it from there.


they should be fine tbh. @erwin123  has similar water i believe, and grows softwater eriocaulocaea.


Hufsa said:


> I assume you write "used to know" because they have since died in a horrible accident, likely involving some sort of chemical spill.


he was a great friend...


----------



## Sarpijk

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've gone to using larger and larger sponge blocks, it means that weekly maintenance isn't essential. I doesn't matter to me that they are so large, I don't do aesthetics and have very weedy tanks. I use them on filter intakes as well as power heads etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bought a 12" x 4" x 4" (30 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm) sponge block (like the above) last week for £9 delivered, so they are still a cheap option.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hi Darrel what type of sponge( PPI) do you prefer?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Sarpijk said:


> Hi Darrel what type of sponge( PPI) do you prefer?


I think these ones are are 20  PPI. They are described as <"coarse">, but I buy them because they are cheap, easily available and work for I want them to do.
I wouldn't want any finer than 30 PPI,  but these  are large enough so they don't clog. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Did your algae problems start before or after the frequent large water changes?


I was going to say no, but then I went back to look at the dates closer (CSI style ) and you may be on to something there.
I did a brief timeline in january but the following one should be more thorough.

I love having a journal, its really really useful to be able to go back in time and look at things again. 
My goal is that everything significant is written down here online or in the paper journal. 
It doesnt always happen but I try. Filter cleanings I need to get better at writing down.

------------------------------------------------------------
Timeline: (Safe to skip if you want!)

03.11.2021 
The front light was increased from 10% to 15%. I assume both Fluvals were running at ~10% before this.
The Fluval 3.0 has five controllable channels, when I write just one percentage then I am talking about the general percentage of most of the channels, but not necessarily all of them. My go-to for a long while was 10% Red, 1% Blue, 10% Cool white, 10% Pure white and 10% Warm white.
For reference the "Planted" preset provided with this light is 84% Red, 20% Blue, 73% Cool white, 100% Pure white and 80% Warm white.
But this date the blue channel was increased to be the same level as the rest, so all channels at 15% for the front light and 10% on all channels for the back.

09.11.2021


Hufsa said:


> Instead I have serviced one of the filters, since they have both been untouched for like 6 months.
> So even if it was a bit of a big cleaning for one filter, I should hopefully get away with it since there is another filter left entirely untouched.
> Im thinking ill do the other one in about a week and a half.


Did somewhat heavy handed filter cleaning of one canister, second one was indeed done a week and a half later.
If heavy handed filter cleaning was the main cause I would have expected to see something soon after this, which did not happen.

15.11.2021


Hufsa said:


> .. plants look to be doing well


No algae bloom yet. This was 12 days after the increase in blue light, which rules out increase in blue light as the main cause. Algae respond rapidly to changes and a bloom would be evident by 12 days.

20.11.2021 
Added 24/7 airstone and Eheim diffuser on one outlet. Increased flow in tank from Eheim diffuser. 
Removed a lot of debris and did a large water change.
Started treating for Scutariella, medication itself highly unlikely to have anything to do with algae bloom imo.

21.11.2021


Hufsa said:


> ..very minimal algae, in fact I still havent cleaned the glass of the tank since I set it up


Still no algae bloom. Fertilizer dose was too lean and plants were complaining a little bit.

22.11.2021
I found pictures I took of making homemade root tabs. They will have been covered in fresh clay at this point so I probably let them dry for at least a week if not more.

26.11.2021
The fishsticks went to their new home, no livestock left in tank to stir the sand aside from the snails.

01.12.2021
Guesstimated addition of homemade Osmocote root tabs around this time

10.12.21
Increased fertilizer.
Some will point to this as a cause but I have increased fert dosing tons of times in my tank and never had algae bloom because of it, so I am not convinced. 
The plants were a lot happier after this though.

X.12.2021
Unknown date around mid december there was another large water change and I treated the Scutariella again.

01.01.2022


Hufsa said:


> ..most of (although not all) the plants are growing better, but ive also had a quite large flush of algae of all kinds.


I remember that the algae bloom happened around the time I added the root tabs, but not the exact date. 
I was quite busy in december so was not paying much attention to the tank.
Treated for Scutariella the third time but didnt change the water in advance.
Changed lights back again to less blue channel in case it caused the algae. Front 15% overall and 2% blue, back 10% overall and 1% blue. Looking back from now it didnt seem to make a difference.

Following this date there have been filter cleanings and a lot of water changes, but they were not written down.
Nor do I know exactly when I reduced the amount of filter media.

09.01.22
Increased light slightly overall because I was nervous about the plants not getting enough, also increased red spectrum somewhat. 
This was mostly because my Ludwigia Super Red was about to die

07.02.22
Decreased light again and moved light demanding Super Red higher up in the tank. Changed blue channel to 0% on both out of desperation, probably pointless.
-----------------------------------------------------

Take-away:
So I havent gotten _much_ wiser, but I did start doing sporadic large water changes about a week and a half before the estimated addition of the root tabs.
The root tabs are still standing out as the most likely "trigger", but may have been helped along by several smaller factors.
Sudden increases in ammonium (Is it wrong to write ammonia like I usually do?) is agreed by most to be a trigger of algae, seemingly a notable exception to the "nutrients dont cause algae" rule of thumb. At least I think it is?

Fluctuations in CO2 levels caused by large water changes could be one of those "helper" factors to the bloom. 
Another could be the build up of gunk in the sand following the departure of the fishsticks. 
Disturbing the nitrification by removing too much filter media might also contribute, especially for the diatoms, although not everyone seems to think so.

If the root tabs were the main trigger, the algae should decrease again eventually. It may be taking so long because of all of the helper factors keeping the instability going.
The end goal should be to get the tank back to normal as soon as possible, see previously mentioned battle plan.


----------



## pat1cp

Best of luck @Hufsa  I can see this is getting to you. 

Remember, it's not a battle, it's a war , you can lose a battle but still win the war.


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> Timeline: (Safe to skip if you want!)


The answer to the puzzle is likely written here. I'm not going  to go out on a limb and say exactly what caused the issues because I don't know, i will however offer my thoughts.


Hufsa said:


> My go-to for a long while was 10% Red, 1% Blue, 10% Cool white, 10% Pure white and 10% Warm white.


Did this go-to setting work? If it did then I see no reason not to go back to it or something similar.

I feel the pain first hand with regards to suffering ludwigia super red. Moved mine to the back of the tank which reduced the amount of light it was getting and then reduced the light further to combat bba. 
The ludwigia sulked, new growth was small and more green than red. My heart was telling me increase the light but my head said don't, I reached a compromise and raised the intensity by 1%. 
Thought prosses was "its only 1%, how is that gonna be beneficial to algae"~ "touché old bean, if it won't benefit algae, how the hell will it help the ludwigia.." 🥴


Hufsa said:


> Sudden increases in ammonium (Is it wrong to write ammonia like I usually do?


Haha I hear you on this one, I prefer ammonium, it somehow feels kinder on the critters. 
Truth is when we choose to dose either we accept we're potentially making a bet with the devil, if we get lucky the devil will bow and accept that he's been beat, if we don't get lucky... 
Ammonia/ammonium spike gets my vote for the shortlist.


Hufsa said:


> Fluctuations in CO2 levels caused by large water changes could be one of those "helper" factors


Another suspect ~ fluctuating co2 levels are widely blamed for causing bba and I think its also linked with diatoms. I think you also mentioned above the ferts levels were also fluctuating wildly at this point due to increased water changes. You'd probably get away doing both those things on occasion but would imagine doing it repeatedly will come with consequences. 

I suspect a mixture of things that you listed above have caused or exasperated the problems, not just the ones I've picked out above. I'm no planted tank guru but firmly believe balance or stability are the key features to success, you've had a wobble mate, nothing more nothing less. 

Fairly confident you'll fix these issues, keep the faith 👍


----------



## swyftfeet

Does BBA appear in tanks that don’t have driftwood?

I have my kids tank,  which was a hot mess in the water chemistry dept,  recently went through a huge amount  of diatom bloom, but there is only a scattering of Java  moss and no other plants.
Zero BBA.  15g tank with probabaly 4 fish  with a total sum of 15” in fish length, so max recommended stock. I probably over feed this tank a tiny bit, but I have no frame of reference, I do a good pinch twice a day of tiny pellets.

I have another tank “the NICU” aka the “guppy mill” several rocks from the same tank that’s in my journal.    It has had some diatoms and a very tight green non filimentous(spelling?) algae on the rocks and driftwood and all over the glass.  But no BBA    34+ baby fish in a 10g. Also one smaller piece of driftwood that is very hard.  It was branch wood not root ball. I over feed the he’ll out of this tank with ground flakes.

On my journal tank it’s a root ball of unknown origin or species that’s gone pretty soft in the water.  That tank has BBA. Rocks and wood collected from same stream.  Plants are having a hard time there but thrive in my 10g. No livestock no fish food yet.

Do you have root wood in your tank?  Wondering if there’s a correlation.


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Did this go-to setting work? If it did then I see no reason not to go back to it or something similar.


Yeah the go-to worked, so there is no reason it shouldnt be safe to go back to that setting.


John q said:


> The ludwigia sulked, new growth was small and more green than red. My heart was telling me increase the light but my head said don't


I put mine in a different location in the tank where it received more light, worked a treat and brought it back from the dead. Sometimes you dont have to increase the overall light level, just the light the individual plant gets.


John q said:


> Fairly confident you'll fix these issues, keep the faith 👍


Thanks 😊 I will power through


swyftfeet said:


> Does BBA appear in tanks that don’t have driftwood?


It does appear in tanks with just rocks also, and can grow on glass too if conditions for it are good


swyftfeet said:


> Do you have root wood in your tank?  Wondering if there’s a correlation.


I do have wood, they would seem to be roots, I think all "spiderwood" / "red moor" wood is root growth. If you have any bark left on the wood, BBA will usually be very thick at those places, same with thin branch pieces, extra thick BBA growth. I think it has to do with those areas breaking down more rapidly than the rest of the wood.

Its an interesting thing to observe, but I think BBA should not get to rule our life and decide what kind of hardscape we have, or if we have any at all. Its far too easy to get lost in small details. Ive never really had any success trying to deal with algae directly, focusing on the plants and getting it just right for them is the only thing that has worked for me 
So if I were to follow my own advice for once, I should make sure my ferts are on point. I have started running the doser for ~10 seconds manually after every water change, im not sure how much that adds, I should make the effort to find out, or just do 20 seconds I suppose 😁


I got the replacement regulator yesterday, it doesnt have a complete solenoid and theres goop on the needle valve, so it looks like the tech team has done something to it. It passed the 1st step of the test as usual, and for the 2nd step, the second stage chamber lost only 2 psi over a 12 hour period, this seems good enough for me. Step 3 involves testing with an open solenoid, so Ive shot off an email to CO2Art again asking for instructions as I assume they have something planned.


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> ..doesnt have a complete solenoid ... I assume they have something planned.


Wasnt much to it other than removing the plastic nut and switching the black solenoid-y bit over.

Had the CO2 running for most of the photoperiod yesterday, regulator seems to be working well.
Got up early today to squeeze in another large waterchange before the lights came on, and currently running the injection at 1 bps (0.5 bps yesterday).
Drop checker is so far entirely unimpressed. Otos are not bothered.
Will maintain this level for today and then increase slightly tomorrow. Repeat every day until I reach my desired color.
During the night some water creeps into the CO2 line from the reactor, and stays there for ~10 minutes after the gas turns on, before it is suddenly cleared out. I assume the gas needs a little bit of time to build up enough to break through the check valve (black lump in top of picture). Is this normal operation?







I think I may be on the final lap in the war with Scutariella, tank got Levamisole on monday, waterchange tuesday and after that a dose of Prazi, followed by half dose wednesday and thursday as instructions for Esha Gdex say. As mentioned they got a water change today (friday), and another starting dose of Prazi.
Plan is to do another three day treatment and then another Levamisole on monday, at which point I will stop treatment and just observe the shrimp. Plan subject to change.
Havent seen visible parasites for a few days, and im removing molts from the imprisoned shrimp religiously several times a day. I think catching them has really helped, its easy to check over all the shrimp for parasites and get all the molts.
Catching an entire population of shrimp in a planted tank is probably totally unfeasible for proper aquascapes, and was at least a major pain in the behind for my modest tank, even though I have mostly epiphytes that are easy to remove. Im happy that it seems to have worked at least.
Im planning to keep the shrimp in the fry rings until I am certain there is no recurrence and all the parasite eggs have hatched, im definitely not in the mood for catching all the shrimp twice.

They're not super thrilled about being imprisoned, the rings are more crowded than I would like, and I have lost a few shrimp. But no more than I was losing when they were free in the tank. Im sad for every one I lose, I imagine the ones left behind will be thoroughly medicated shrimp with unprocessed emotional trauma and many stories to tell "from the war". They can sit their future grandshrimplets on their many knees, wearing an eyepatch and sporting lots of scars, talking about the time the evil fud-giver imprisoned them in the "place above", and made them sit cramped in bright light for two weeks. They have some Hydrocotyle to hide out in, but they are grumpy with me regardless. The Hydrocotyle on the other hand is loving it.






Last week I removed a pretty young leaf off my Buce. Black Ventii that had a large hole in it. I thought my otos had lost their marbles and eaten it, fed them a little bit more and then didnt think too much more of it. Then this week I see the same thing happening to another new leaf on a different Black Ventii rhizome. Its actually melting. Sorry for suspecting you my darling otos. Im not sure what the deal is with the plant, maybe it got a bit dried out by accident or just got offended by something. Maybe I trimmed it a bit too hard? No matter, I am pinching off the melty leaves and will just monitor the plant.


----------



## Hufsa

Drop checker finally budged a bit, looks like we're sitting at around 8-9 ppm today according to JBL's 20ppm liquid







Will have to proceed very carefully tomorrow.

Im actually kinda surprised the drop checker is changing already, I thought I was gonna need a lot more bubbles per second. Does this mean that I dont have enough surface agitation? (@Wookii ? ) The setup now is that the skimmer is set to run at night, and I moderated the up angle of the spray bar so instead of going for "as much ripple as possible without breaking the surface", which was for maximum aeration in low tech, its pointed more straight forward and creates a nice ripple. Im willing to change any of that, I dont want to run on the edge offgassing-wise

Put in a little bit of elbow grease and got some BBA infested leaves out of the tank, also snipped off more Hydrocotyle to double the amount in the shrimp gulag.

Im planning an order of plants, im telling myself to wait at least a week so my CO2 will be a bit more settled, but it hurts because I'm of course very impatient and want stuff now 😁 Plan is to get a bunch more stems (+some nice preciouses), so they could potentially help the tank get settled again quicker. But I don't want to buy them too soon and risk killing them instead. Dont ask me where I intend to place said plants, that's a problem for future me. I have been thinking of reducing my large amounts of java ferns and bolbitis, and getting more room for stems that way.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Does this mean that I dont have enough surface agitation? (@Wookii ? )



Do you have a picture of video?


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Plan is to get a bunch more stems (+some nice preciouses),


oooh! do tell us more. 

as long as the tank isn't completely stagnant, I wouldn't worry at all about gassing your tank. those co2 levels are pretty low and insignificant. you can also make your own drop checker fluid, so it goes lime green at your desired co2 ppm level. 
if 4dkh is lime green at 30ppm
2dkh water with bromo blue is lime green at 15ppm. hope that helps


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Do you have a picture of video?


Yessir, I dont have a good way to share videos but these pictures give an impression. If anything it is a bit more than what it shows in pictures. There is the slightest hint of a surface film, the skimmer doesnt work as efficiently when I have the spraybar like this, I think the film is pushed to the front so much that its not allowed to reach the skimmer to be removed.

Sorry for the cruddy images, in the first one I moved the shrimps out of the way so there was a clearer view of the surface.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Yessir, I dont have a good way to share videos but these pictures give an impression. If anything it is a bit more than what it shows in pictures. There is the slightest hint of a surface film, the skimmer doesnt work as efficiently when I have the spraybar like this, I think the film is pushed to the front so much that its not allowed to reach the skimmer to be removed.
> 
> Sorry for the cruddy images, in the first one I moved the shrimps out of the way so there was a clearer view of the surface.
> View attachment 182985
> 
> View attachment 182986



It’s difficult to see, a picture from above the surface is probably better. It looks a little still to me, so I’d probably want to spray bars angled upwards a little more.


----------



## Hufsa

Thanks 😊 The lights have gone off for the day, so ill have another go at pictures tomorrow, and do some pics before adjustment and some after I angle it up a bit


----------



## Wookii

This is perhaps a reasonable (approximate) example of what you might want to be aiming for with a spray bar for good gas exchange:


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> This is perhaps a reasonable (approximate) example of what you might want to be aiming for with a spray bar


How do you guys manage to keep floaters with this amount of surface agitation? The ghosts of my dead floaters just died a second time looking at that clip 
I angled my bar up more early this morning, forgot about the pictures though, it was still dark in the tank.
Also increased to 1.28~ bps, drop checker stayed mostly the same color as yesterday, so seems like they just cancelled each other out. But not a bad thing 

I may have gotten a few little friends on my way home from the city today.. guinea pigs i mean kuhliis 
There was one in the group that isnt a kuhlii, its a different pangio species, very slender silver/gold colored loach. Maybe Pangio anguillaris or Pangio doriae. From the little I got to look at them doriae looks the most similar, but these noodles dont exactly stay still in the bag, and I didnt want to stress it out by putting it into a different container for photos, so they were just let into the tank after a couple hours acclimatization.

I stole a quick photo of the butt end of a "normal" one hiding in a group of sorry looking B. sp Red.
Im gonna get rid of this variety of Buce, the colors cant compare to the others I have and I need the space.




For anyone who remembers the "little traveller" caridina shrimp who hitchhiked with my moss shipment a while back, I have good news. I thought it had died but today I spotted it in one of the shrimp rings  It would look like a dark blue dream at first but when I look closely I can see the color is different. Also in a different light his eyes are light brown, completely different to the other shrimp. I am happy to see him, I wasnt sure if my tank was suitable for caridina shrimp but he seems to have stuck with it


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> How do you guys manage to keep floaters with this amount of surface agitation? The ghosts of my dead floaters just died a second time looking at that clip



I have many in the same graveyard. My salvinia are now doing great sitting in the middle of a curl of Val leaves but that’s probably not the answer you want. 🙄 I bought floating rings and that was not a success. About to try Co2 tubing to corral my next lot. Will let you know how I get on with that and will be interested to see other suggestions.

Lovin the Guinea Pigs 😍 Been seriously thinking about some of these for my tank but at 12GH/KH I think my water may be too hard 🙁. 

Happy to see ur starting to win the battle against the Scutariella. I’m sure your shrimps are looking forward to freedom day! 

Looks like progress is being made.😊 👍


----------



## Tyko_N

Hufsa said:


> Maybe Pangio anguillaris


This is a regular on at least one Swedish wholesalers list (although I don't think that I have ever seen it in a shop). So, assuming their identification is correct, _P. anguillaris _is probably your best bet. It doesn't really matter though, since all _Pangio_-species are such lovely fish


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> Im planning an order of plants, im telling myself to wait at least a week..


Lmao a week yeah right  I couldnt stop myself so the order was placed now  Make or break I want the shinies now. Will post the list once they are safely home, a bit complicated shipping, especially this time of year so fingers crossed 🤞🤞


----------



## pat1cp

Your sand is like a Caribbean beach. Mine is like the gravel in the Thames.

Looks lovely 👏


----------



## Hufsa

Tyko_N said:


> This is a regular on at least one Swedish wholesalers list (although I don't think that I have ever seen it in a shop). So, assuming their identification is correct, _P. anguillaris _is probably your best bet. It doesn't really matter though, since all _Pangio_-species are such lovely fish


Not unlikely  I dont think this one was imported on purpose though, more likely a bycatch. It was the only one I could see in a tank full of "normals".
I think I saw a pair of nasal barbels in the dim morning light, which would make it P. doriae rather than anguillaris.
Apparently in the years since I was hardcore into loaches, there have been some "new" Pangio species, some of which are relatively unmarked like this. 
So I should consider those as well. Seriouslyfish states that doriae;


> "It’s included in the P. anguillaris group of closely-related species within the genus and can be distinguished from other members P. bitaimac by presence of scales on the cheeks (vs. absence), P. lidi by presence of pelvic fins (vs. absence), and P. lumbriciformis by lack of dark saddle-shaped markings on the body (vs. presence)."


So I will gradually get some good photos of it as they become accustomed to my tank so I can be sure 
Luckily as you say, all pangio species are lovely little noodles and im really stoked that I got this oddball


----------



## swyftfeet

I think floaters are the crutch for us low  tech / lean dosing folks.  

With CO2 you would not need the safety factor of them occluding the light, taking up the excess nutrients, being the only non CO2 limited plants.    

I agree they are great sentinels a la the duckweed index.    However, if you're dosing EI and have CO2 the need for the duckweed index is kinda washed away, especially if you have an over powered, greeater than 5:1  (gph : tank volume) turnover  canister filter. 

Even the best paper airplane cant fetch your mail.


----------



## swyftfeet

If you can't live without your duckweed, I have this crackbrained idea.      could prob grab some clear plexiglass from a home improvement store and make a deflection plate.  you can heat it up on the bend lines with a heat gun and bend it quite easily.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> How do you guys manage to keep floaters with this amount of surface agitation? The ghosts of my dead floaters just died a second time looking at that clip



😆 I guess that’s the sacrifice with a spray bar - they are one of the most efficient ways to distribute CO2 and maintain good surface agitation but they do apply it to the entire surface!

As an alternative to @swyftfeet’s idea above, could create a large corral out of some sealed hollow tubing (airline might bow so some hollow small diameter Perspex tubing might be better), such that you leave a 100mm or so gap at the front and ends of the tank for your floating plants.


----------



## swyftfeet

Wookii said:


> 😆 I guess that’s the sacrifice with a spray bar - they are one of the most efficient ways to distribute CO2 and maintain good surface agitation but they do apply it to the entire surface!
> 
> As an alternative to @swyftfeet’s idea above, could create a large corral out of some sealed hollow tubing (airline might bow so some hollow small diameter Perspex tubing might be better), such that you leave a 100mm or so gap at the front and ends of the tank for your floating plants.


well that would be  A LOT easier. But Rube Goldberg is my thing.


----------



## Karmicnull

Wookii said:


> you could create a large corral out of some sealed hollow tubing (


I used airline to keep mine out of the most turbulent area and it worked fine, although my spraybar doesn't reach right to the end of the tank, so the airline itself wasn't getting buffeted.


----------



## shangman

My way of keeping floaters is to have wood emerging out of the tank which provides a place to tether some plants to like hydrocotyle and anubias. Eventually the plants gain a hold, push out into the flow and won't float off. Then my floating plants that can't be tethered like red root floaters end up in this area where they can "hide" from the fast flow amongst the stronger plants. 

I used to think this made a lot of dead zones for co2 in my tank, but I've been moving my drop checker around the whole tank the past week and it's high everywhere.


----------



## Hufsa

swyftfeet said:


> I think floaters are the crutch for us low  tech / lean dosing folks.
> 
> With CO2 you would not need the safety factor of them occluding the light, taking up the excess nutrients, being the only non CO2 limited plants.
> 
> I agree they are great sentinels a la the duckweed index.    However, if you're dosing EI and have CO2 the need for the duckweed index is kinda washed away, especially if you have an over powered, greeater than 5:1  (gph : tank volume) turnover  canister filter.
> 
> Even the best paper airplane cant fetch your mail.


I think the potential usage for plants with the aerial advantage goes even beyond that. Darrel always says plant/microbe filtration is "belt and braces", what about belt, braces and bootstraps (or something). The reason im still trying to work out a way to include some CO2 unlimited plants in my setup is because they have such strong potential for growth given their access to atmospheric CO2, and therefore good potential for uptake of a sudden (unwanted) release of nutrients. I think that a tank with some CO2 unlimited plants will be safer against a sudden increase in ammonia/ammonium, could be a dead fish (or many), could be a root tab addition gone wrong, could be filter had problems. Either way I think they can be a useful safety feature even in high tech tanks.

My setup is just not great for loose floating plants, and ive gotten tired of trying to work around it and want to go with something else. So an anchored plant or two would be better for me. Wont sail around and wont end up everywhere during a waterchange. Its not something thats critical for my tank to have right now, but ill see about working it in eventually.

Also when you say "take up excess nutrients", that statement doesnt really make sense if youre dosing EI. I think this term is something most of us have carried with us since the olden days  but a lot of us on this forum are dosing way in excess on purpose, its not really something we want to avoid and we certainly dont want to run low. The term could still be used for other methods, but just keep it in mind.



swyftfeet said:


> crackbrained idea


 It took me a little while to figure it out but I see it now 😁 Yeeeaah thats maybe overthinking, and thats uh coming from me 


And now for todays episode of "Hufsa's dropchecker"!
_theme song runs_






Looks like we may have inched ourselves up to 12-13 today. Im taking the photos with flash so I have a really consistent light level for a read-out.

Otos are still doing ok and not giving me any stink-eye, which is good. Noodles have started to explore their surroundings, I havent had time to take many photos but I got this quick pic of the oddball. Hope you like long and flesh colored cause theres even more of him off camera  He needs a name, I am entertaining suggestions




Im so excited for the new plants, some very shiny shinies, yess, preciouss..
Cant wait


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> He needs a name, I am entertaining suggestions



😳 . . . How about “Lambton”?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> I think that a tank with some CO2 unlimited plants will be safer against a sudden increase in ammonia/ammonium, could be a dead fish (or many), could be a root tab addition gone wrong, could be filter had problems. Either way I think they can be a useful safety feature even in high tech tanks.


Yes, that is it.

The original ideal was a rooted emergent plant, something like <"_Cyperus papyrus_">, because of their potential to oxygenate the substrate, and filtration via a <"planted trickle filter">. I soon appreciated  that neither of these was going to be desirable, or indeed possible, for most home aquarists.

That led me to a floating plant (so still with <"Diana Walstad's aerial advantage">) and originally <"Lesser Duckweed (_Lemna minor_)">, hence the <"Duckweed Index">, and the "duckweed" subsequently evolved into Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_).

cheers Darrel


----------



## KirstyF

Wookii said:


> 😳 . . . How about “Lambton”?



Nidhogg (the dread biter)  - Viking Mythology? 

Or just call him Nope after this cutie! 



			https://www.ukaps.org/forum/attachments/1645083112522-gif.182898/


----------



## Garuf

My contribution to the naming. 

Steve.


----------



## Tyko_N

Hufsa said:


> Noodles have started to explore their surroundings, I havent had time to take many photos but I got this quick pic of the oddball.


You are right, that looks like a _P. doriae_, great find! As for a name, I suggest Shai-Hulud, since it should grow a bit bigger than the other ones.


----------



## Hufsa

Im sitting here with a digital representation of my tank, trying to figure out in advance where im going to cram in all the new plants.
Even if I downsize a ton of my existing plants, this is going to be quite difficult...


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Im sitting here with a digital representation of my tank, trying to figure out in advance where im going to cram in all the new plants.
> Even if I downsize a ton of my existing plants, this is going to be quite difficult...
> 
> View attachment 183177


remove the wood, and buce, moss, ferns on the walls?


----------



## Hufsa

You know already I did take out one piece of wood earlier  I think ill keep the last one, can put anubias in the shade under it and moss on top of it 😁
Maybe thats it!

*LAYERS!*


----------



## shangman

Send me the design, I will find space for you. THERE'S ALWAYS SPACE!!!


----------



## Garuf

New tank time.


----------



## KirstyF

😂 You do know you should still be able to actually see into the tank……right?! 😳 

Although…..I wonder if you can get waterproof spy cameras 🤔


----------



## hypnogogia

Hufsa said:


> Noodles have started to explore their surroundings, I havent had time to take many photos but I got this quick pic of the oddball. Hope you like long and flesh colored cause theres even more of him off camera  He needs a name, I am entertaining suggestions


What is it?


----------



## Hufsa

hypnogogia said:


> What is it?


Pangio doriae most likely


----------



## Karmicnull

I was watching a Josh Sim masterclass  earlier this evening and  he said 'To win IAPLC you need to do 6 things.  Blah, Blah, blah, blah, blah and *LAYERS**!*  You need at least 5 layers in your tank."

Then a little later I log onto UKAPS and I see:


Hufsa said:


> Maybe thats it!
> 
> *LAYERS!*



When's the tank being submitted?  We're all rooting for you!


----------



## KirstyF

I think he meant front to back….pretty sure @Hufsa is about to build a high rise! 

Should get extra points for innovation. 👍😂


----------



## Karmicnull

KirstyF said:


> Should get extra points for innovation. 👍😂


Agree 100%.  A high rise is clearly superior.


----------



## Hufsa

I just had to share this, my bolbitis is pearling 😍 Its not a broken leaf, not water change bubbles, honest to god pearling. Oh my goodness I did not expect to be so excited about this!
I tried to take a photo but it didnt turn out, too far at the back. I know pearling is really basic stuff so just bear with me while I have my first CO2-related experiences 

Also why is everyone laughing at this?;


Hufsa said:


> Pangio doriae most likely



...
Did he mean what name the loach ended up with?


----------



## Hufsa

They're here! 😍


My shiny new preciouses are:
Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden'
Ludwigia sp. "Marilia"
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
Rotala rotundifolia 'Orange Juice'
Rotala rotundifolia 'Pink'
Tonina fluviatilis
Myriophyllum sp. "Guyana"
Hydrocotyle tripartita "Mini"
Cryptocoryne "Purpurea"
Cryptocoryne spiralis 'Red'
Microsorum pteropus 'Petit'
Riccardia sp. "graeffei"
Vesicularia sp. "Mini Christmas Moss"
Plagiomnium cf. affine
Bucephalandra sp. "Brownie Ghost" invitro
Bucephalandra sp. "Lamandau Purple"
Bucephalandra sp. "Deep Purple"
Bucephalandra sp. "Biblis"


Im so excited!


The plants I have from before are:
Bolbitis heudelotii
Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'
Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow'
Ammannia crassicaulis
Ludwigia palustris 'Super Red'
Hygrophila polysperma
Limnophila sessiliflora
Anubias Petite
Anubias Pangolino
Schismatoglottis prietoi
Bucephalandra 'Kedagang'
Bucephalandra sp. 'Red'
Bucephalandra 'Black Ventii'
Bucephalandra 'Brownie Blue'
Bucephalandra 'Blue Green'
Bucephalandra -Unknown-
Bucephalandra Pearl Gray
Bucephalandra Dark Achilles
Bucephalandra Silver Grey
Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger'
Cryptocoryne striolata 'mini'
Cryptocoryne 'Queen Vandom'
Cryotocoryne regina 'Silver Queen'
Blyxa japonica
Sagittaria subulata
Hydrocotyle tripartita
Hydrocotyle verticillata
Pogostemon helferi
Taxiphyllum sp. Peacock Moss
Vesicularia ferriei Weeping Moss
Vesicularia montagnei Christmas Moss
Lomariopsis cf. lineata (Susswassertang)
Hookeriaceae sp. (Hooker Moss / Rare Moss)
Hydropogonella gymnostoma (Queen Moss)
Plagiochilaceae sp. (Cameroon Moss)
Fontinalis sp.
Fissidens fontanus (Phoenix moss)
Fissidens unknown (maybe "Micro Q")
Fissidens unknown
Fissidens unknown
Fissidens unknown
+mystery mosses

61 species, this is a normal amount right? I think I can still fit some more in 🤔

They are acclimating in the kitchen right now, I am so ready.
My tank is a ghost town right now, all ready to be planted up with these babies. Have reduced heavily the amount of bolbitis and java ferns.

Since I killed Rotala rotundifolia and can barely keep Ludwigia Super Red alive, I figured it only made sense to go straight for the poshest plants possible! (perfect term coined by the one and only @shangman )
This time I have CO2 and can turn my light up a little bit though 😁

Lets dooo this, this is going to be fun!


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> They're here! 😍
> 
> 
> My shiny new preciouses are:
> Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden'
> Ludwigia sp. "Marilia"
> Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'
> Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
> Rotala rotundifolia 'Orange Juice'
> Rotala rotundifolia 'Pink'
> Tonina fluviatilis
> Myriophyllum sp. "Guyana"
> Hydrocotyle tripartita "Mini"
> Cryptocoryne "Purpurea"
> Cryptocoryne spiralis 'Red'
> Microsorum pteropus 'Petit'
> Riccardia sp. "graeffei"
> Vesicularia sp. "Mini Christmas Moss"
> Plagiomnium cf. affine
> Bucephalandra sp. "Brownie Ghost" invitro
> Bucephalandra sp. "Lamandau Purple"
> Bucephalandra sp. "Deep Purple"
> Bucephalandra sp. "Biblis"



How many tanks are you planting out? 🤣


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> How many tanks are you planting out? 🤣




yes


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> My shiny new preciouses are:


Now that's a "Who's Who" list. 👍


----------



## bazz

“rich beyond the dreams of avarice “. 😜


----------



## shangman

Hufsa said:


> They're here! 😍
> 
> 
> My shiny new preciouses are:
> Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden'
> Ludwigia sp. "Marilia"
> Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'
> Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
> Rotala rotundifolia 'Orange Juice'
> Rotala rotundifolia 'Pink'
> Tonina fluviatilis
> Myriophyllum sp. "Guyana"
> Hydrocotyle tripartita "Mini"
> Cryptocoryne "Purpurea"
> Cryptocoryne spiralis 'Red'
> Microsorum pteropus 'Petit'
> Riccardia sp. "graeffei"
> Vesicularia sp. "Mini Christmas Moss"
> Plagiomnium cf. affine
> Bucephalandra sp. "Brownie Ghost" invitro
> Bucephalandra sp. "Lamandau Purple"
> Bucephalandra sp. "Deep Purple"
> Bucephalandra sp. "Biblis"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The plants I have from before are:
> Bolbitis heudelotii
> Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv'
> Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'
> Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow'
> Ammannia crassicaulis
> Ludwigia palustris 'Super Red'
> Hygrophila polysperma
> Limnophila sessiliflora
> Anubias Petite
> Anubias Pangolino
> Schismatoglottis prietoi
> Bucephalandra 'Kedagang'
> Bucephalandra sp. 'Red'
> Bucephalandra 'Black Ventii'
> Bucephalandra 'Brownie Blue'
> Bucephalandra 'Blue Green'
> Bucephalandra -Unknown-
> Bucephalandra Pearl Gray
> Bucephalandra Dark Achilles
> Bucephalandra Silver Grey
> Cryptocoryne striolata 'Tiger'
> Cryptocoryne striolata 'mini'
> Cryptocoryne 'Queen Vandom'
> Cryotocoryne regina 'Silver Queen'
> Blyxa japonica
> Sagittaria subulata
> Hydrocotyle tripartita
> Hydrocotyle verticillata
> Pogostemon helferi
> Taxiphyllum sp. Peacock Moss
> Vesicularia ferriei Weeping Moss
> Vesicularia montagnei Christmas Moss
> Lomariopsis cf. lineata (Susswassertang)
> Hookeriaceae sp. (Hooker Moss / Rare Moss)
> Hydropogonella gymnostoma (Queen Moss)
> Plagiochilaceae sp. (Cameroon Moss)
> Fontinalis sp.
> Fissidens fontanus (Phoenix moss)
> Fissidens unknown (maybe "Micro Q")
> Fissidens unknown
> Fissidens unknown
> Fissidens unknown
> +mystery mosses
> 
> 61 species, this is a normal amount right? I think I can still fit some more in 🤔
> 
> They are acclimating in the kitchen right now, I am so ready.
> My tank is a ghost town right now, all ready to be planted up with these babies. Have reduced heavily the amount of bolbitis and java ferns.
> 
> Since I killed Rotala rotundifolia and can barely keep Ludwigia Super Red alive, I figured it only made sense to go straight for the poshest plants possible! (perfect term coined by the one and only @shangman )
> This time I have CO2 and can turn my light up a little bit though 😁
> 
> Lets dooo this, this is going to be fun!



Absolutely livid that you've got more species than me!! Oh no, I'll have to buy some more, what a shame 😅


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> Lets dooo this, this is going to be fun!








Ow my back hurts like a mother- 
I got most of them planted though! A few mosses and buces can hang out until tomorrow, they shouldnt mind.
So many tiny invitro plants 😂
I cant wait for them to start growing, thats where I was wrong, planting isnt fun, watching stuff grow is! 
I hope I dont kill them all off, that'd be a bit of a disappointment wouldnt it 
Also in time-honored UKAPS tradition I have glue on my fingers 
Riccardia is a pain in the butt to plant, why did no one warn me? Its like trying to wrestle feta cheese 

I kept a few sprigs of the plants im most scared about killing and let them float in the shrimp containers, they will be closer to the surface there and can grow out if they want to. Sort of a backup I guess.

My tank is gonna look like a plant growing facility for the foreseeable future. 
I think the collectoritis needs to burn itself through my system before sanity* will be restored. (*relative)

Will post an annoying amount of pictures soon! 😘


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Will post an annoying amount of pictures soon! 😘


QUICKLY!


----------



## bazz

Hufsa said:


> Will post an annoying amount of pictures soon! 😘


👍


----------



## Hufsa

First installment of pictures, I will likely be posting a lot of them for a while as I attempt to grow the _poshest_ stems and maybe fail in a spectacular fashion.
The noodles have been busy all night making sure I havent cut any corners when I planted things, fortunately I seem to have passed the inspection and have very minimal amounts of floating plants swirling around in the tank this morning.

Before:



After:




Collectoritis - It could strike anyone 

So lets take a tour shall we




Ive tried (to the very limited best of my ability) to plan ahead a little bit. The Cryptocoryne "Queen Vandom" is in the front left corner, and I figured she could have company by Cryptocoryne "Purpurea" behind her, this crypt is supposed to grow around 10 cm tall if I remember correctly. There are a few "plant refugees" crammed in there with them, I needed them out of the way and this was one of the few available spots. Hydrocotyle verticillata shouldnt grow too tall as long as it gets decent light, and ill make sure it doesnt drown out the "Queen Vandom". For most of the new plants I ordered invitro, time will tell if this was a horrible mistake or a decent choice. I didnt want to deal with pests and invitro offers a lot of bang for the buck if the cups are filled. Ive never tried Cryptocoryne invitro before, does anyone know if they are more or less prone to melting this way? The invitro pots had an absolute ton of little cryptlets, there is no way I need this many plants  
I just want a few of each preciouses, so that they are mine, mine, my precioussss  _ahem_ Sorry 'bout that.
The Limnophila sessiliflora is kept on as a buffer plant, my tank feels extremely vulnerable having an absolute truckload of delicate invitro plants and not a lot of mature growth to fall back on. I had to sell off some portions of the older plants, there was just no physical way to keep everything, even with optimism set to 5000%.
Behind the Purpurea is Rotala rotundifolia 'Orange Juice' and 'Pink' respectively. Ive wanted OJ for a long time, I like the slightly fatter leaves it has and the color isnt painful to look at either. My last bouts with Rotala didnt end so well for the Rotala, but conditions should be more favorable now so fingers crossed 🤞
This Rotala rotundifolia 'Pink' that I have ordered is supposed to be a different variety than 'Ceylon', which also is traded under the name 'Pink'. Dont you love trade names.. so accurate  Anyway my 'Pink' also goes under the name 'Rosa'. Ill probably refer to it as Pink/Rosa going forward because I dont like contributing to confusion. The difference between them is said to be "Under same conditions it has thicker stems and grows more upright, while 'Ceylon' has a tendency to grow upwards in loose, wide spirals." Ceylon also has darker stems.
Ill need to make sure they are not too shaded by the Bolbitis behind them, I think I should maybe pull the whole planting a bit further forward together with the Purpurea, maybe kick out a few plant refugees to make more space.




Javafern in front is the new Microsorum pteropus 'Petit', should be much like Tropica's 'Narrow' but stay smaller. Buce leaves directly behind it belongs to Buce "Dark Achilles", two decent submersed leaves now. The veining has become more faint and the leaves are bluer. Some of the new Riccardia sp. "graeffei" is shown here glued to the wood, the main difference between this one and regular Riccardia chamedryfolia is that this one has wider "branches".

Drop checker color in picture is right at lights on, which is not the target color. As most of us know the drop checker works on a delay, often quoted to be 1-2 hours. Although I would like to know exactly what delay this one has. I might do tests on it later to find out. I assume the delay also varies slightly by design. I think I heard decreasing the amount of fluid in the drop checker can make it respond a bit faster, so I will try emptying out about half and see what happens, unless anyone objects.

Drop checker last night right before CO2 solenoid turned off:



1 hr after gas on this morning:



2 hrs after gas on:



3 hrs and lights on full no picture.
4 hrs after gas on:



5 hrs after gas on missing, was walking the dog
6 hrs after gas on finally approaching end of day color:




Im kicking myself for not getting a picture of the drop checker right before gas on, and a good closeup right at lights on, I will do better next time  
But this seems to be obviously insufficient, doesnt it? Either the drop checker is reeeally slow or I really suck at this. Given the historical facts I tend towards the latter.
Last night I made some pretty big changes to the photoperiod, I had been running it at 10 hours "low tech style" but I am too nervous about nuking these new baby plants, so I have set it to 6 hours to be safe. Gas now turns on at 09:00, light starts the 30 minutes ramp up at 11:30, full light intensity at 12:00. Gas turns off at 16:00, light starts 30 minutes ramp down at 18:00, ending at 18:30
So I am injecting CO2 ~3 hours before photoperiod, but the drop checker is still teal when lights go on 
I need to get a good overview of the ph profile, probably should have bought a ph meter before I went and bought all these plants but theres no instant gratification in that is there  Low light intensity, please save me from my poor life-choices! 
Theres no use chasing the drop checker around, because of the delay and the uncertainty it wont tell me much more than "CO2 was at this level at unknown point". 
I can do a poor mans ph profile with a liquid test, but I doubt it will be anywhere near as accurate as a proper ph meter. 
I will get one, im just delaying because of the price. Everyone seems to say the budget ph meters are a much riskier choice than a budget TDS meter, so I dont want to buy cheap and then have to buy an expensive one later on anyway.

Back to the plants shall we;



I hit the BBA on the wood with some glutaraldehyde yesterday, not sure if it killed it off, I didnt let it sit for as long as last time before rinsing it off. The Bucephalandra "Black Ventii" have been loosely attached to a stone, which in hindsight is way too big and takes up a ton of space in the tank. Im not wanting to disturb it again for a while so I will just have to live with it until it puts out some new growth. Excess stems from the Hygrophila polysperma is elegantly shoved into the foreground as buffer plants.




Crusty pic of center back showing Cryptocoryne spiralis 'Red', Tonina fluviatilis, Ludwigia bla bla bla 'Pantanal' and then 'Cuba'.
Spiralis 'Red' was also invitro and had a ton of plants. My first choice was Spiralis 'Tiger', but it was out of stock. 
Im really hyped about the Tonina, its soo beautiful, I hope it will find my 3 kh acceptable as some have suggested it can.
Out of all the posh stems Tonina is the one I am most excited about, followed by the 'Golden' Ammannia.




Right side of tank, im going to have to make sure H. polysperma doesnt shade its neighbors too much, if it gets too rampant I can move it away for a while until the babies get going. To the right of it is Ludwigia sp. "Marilia", this plant is said to be a vigorous grower, so I think it can work ok in the corner. Sorry about my filter intake, its absolutely manky (excellent british word btw) and I will be cleaning it today. The infamous Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' is to the right of the Buce "Black Ventii". Hoo Boy I hope it doesnt die on me. It can stunt if it wants to, just not die so badly I need to aquire it again, please and thank-you. Lastly Myriophyllum 'Guyana' is to the right of the Pogostemon helferi. I think midground can be a good choice for this and it will be good to have some bright green to balance out all the colorful collectoritis stems. I realise the squares I allotted for each plant doesnt look the most natural. I will try to adapt it to a more natural look in time, but for now my main goal is just not killing them all, aesthetics can come later.




The shrimp have gotten all of the normal Hydrocotyle tripartita and a few oak leaves to hide in, and it seems to have improved their comfort immensely. They were prone to start doing stress laps around the circumference of the fry ring when the light was brightest, and now they are relaxed and plucking away at the plants instead. I dosed the last medication on monday and did a waterchange on tuesday, and there has been no reappearance of parasites since then. The molting rate of the shrimp has gone way down and all molts look clear of eggs. Im very tempted to let them back out again today, I could use their help picking at algae and any plant leaves from the invitro plants that have broken off.

In addition to the photoperiod changes, I have increased the light intensity somewhat as well. I know I said I wasnt going to for a while, but I just cant afford to replace these plants if they die, so im going to go with what I think is the safest route. The new settings should theoretically be well within safe limits given that my water has a ton more CO2 than it used to, so a small increase in light should not tip CO2 demand over the edge, and will make it a bit easier for some of the very light hungry new plants (Cuba, Pantanal, Golden). I set the same intensity on both bars, and went for 30 % red, 6% blue, 25% cool white, 30% pure white and 25% warm white. The ratio was chosen based on a scaling down of the "Planted" preset that comes with the light. I hope that the ratio represents a good spectrum, although my trust in manufacturers is generally low.

Im sure ive forgotten something but I need to get this post wrapped up and plant the rest of the plants


----------



## Konsa

Hi @Hufsa 
looking great. Can't wait to see it growing in.Please keep them updates and pics comming.
I have suggestion if you worried about the invitro plants.I am using a root stimulator that helps them to develop  good root systems  quickly as some invitro pots lack those.The product also boosts any epiphytes and mosses you have.
Its called Canna Rhyzotonic. I use it for a week or two when starting new plants(tank) at 1ml per 10l of water without any ill effects on live stock.It is alkaline in nature and may up your alkalinity a bit tho. 
Regards Konstantin


----------



## Garuf

Woof. That’s some plant list. Buces are nice n all but I can only tell the difference between the very different ones 😬😅


----------



## pat1cp

Looking forward to seeing this too @Konsa  and @Hufsa 

Best of luck.


----------



## Garuf

Also on Ceylon vs pink, Ceylon is a blousier more oval leafed plant than pink, pink if from aquasabi looks more like h’ra in shape but not colour.


----------



## Garuf

Also also 
Nail polish remover pads are what you need for getting glue off.


----------



## erwin123

congrats, and looking forward to more pics!  very impressive collection of plants 🔢


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Ive never tried Cryptocoryne invitro before, does anyone know if they are more or less prone to melting this way?



They can melt, but in my limited experience they are much less prone to melt in a mature substrate than they would be in a brand new one, so you may have an advantage there.



Hufsa said:


> Im kicking myself for not getting a picture of the drop checker right before gas on, and a good closeup right at lights on, I will do better next time
> But this seems to be obviously insufficient, doesnt it?



I think you just need to turn the gas on an extra 1-1.5 hours earlier and you should be good. 



Hufsa said:


> Crusty pic of center back showing Cryptocoryne spiralis 'Red', Tonina fluviatilis, Ludwigia bla bla bla 'Pantanal' and then 'Cuba'.
> Spiralis 'Red' was also invitro and had a ton of plants. My first choice was Spiralis 'Tiger', but it was out of stock.
> Im really hyped about the Tonina, its soo beautiful, I hope it will find my 3 kh acceptable as some have suggested it can.
> Out of all the posh stems Tonina is the one I am most excited about, followed by the 'Golden' Ammannia.



You picked some tough cookies there!


----------



## Karmicnull

Garuf said:


> Nail polish remover pads are what you need for getting glue off.


@Garuf thank you!  My hands are going to love you.


----------



## Hufsa

Konsa said:


> Canna Rhyzotonic


Oo, thanks for the tip! I will see if its available around these here parts. Since I have completely inert substrate im not sure if root growth will help the baby plants much, all my nutrients are in the watercolumn for now


Garuf said:


> Buces are nice n all but I can only tell the difference between the very different ones


Hahah same! Or I thought all buces looked 100% the same before I had any, and now that I have a few different varieties I can pick out subtle differences enough to tell them apart at least, so they only look 90% the same. I guess if someone really likes collecting just for the sake of collecting, having 30 different varieties of buce is fun, but im really only interested in keeping the nicest most distinct ones. I think I just have to kiss a few toads before I find the prince's, if you know what I mean 😁 I already sent Tropica's sp Red packing, it didnt compete with the rest.

I think a key part in beating collectoritis, after the acute stage, is to heavily edit the collection down to your favorites, and selling off the rest. I am planning to do that, especially with ~"slightly greenish-blue buce" number 25 through 48~. Move them on to another hobbyist that will appreciate them more.

Thanks for the info on Ceylon vs Pink/Rosa, that makes sense 



Wookii said:


> They can melt, but in my limited experience they are much less prone to melt in a mature substrate than they would be in a brand new one, so you may have an advantage there.


Sweet, thanks  I was hoping it wasnt going to be "Oh yeah they 100% always melt from invitro"



Wookii said:


> I think you just need to turn the gas on an extra 1-1.5 hours earlier and you should be good.


4-4,5 hours ramp up time for a 250 liter tank 🤔 Is that "allowed"? 
@KirstyF  what do you have?



Wookii said:


> You picked some tough cookies there!


Theres a fine line between bravery and stupidity 😁


Second installment of photos.
I was very much in a "git r' dun" mood so things were strapped to rocks and put in here n there where they fit. I wanted to be done with planting 😄
The buces were emersed grown apart from the invitro Brownie ghost, so should look a bit different once they get submersed leaves.




Bluish-green buce number 32, "Biblis"




Plagiomnium cf. affine "Pearl moss"




"Lamandau Purple" in front of "Blue Green" from before




Im calling this rock "Mt. Brownie Ghost". I felt like an actual brain surgeon gluing these tiny little sprigs on, trying to get as delicate a gluing as I could.
I think its some of my best work 
I have no idea if the Brownie Ghost invitro cups are anything like the famous BG 2011/2012. I remember there was a lot of buzz around them when they were first launched, but I havent seen anything since then, and would like to know if they grow out nearly as nice looking. Keeping in mind that many pictures of BG 2011/2012 are in very purplish lighting.
A good example of this is in this 2hr aquarist article , showing it in purple light as well as neutral. I think it looks nicer in the neutral light tbh.




I very sadly lost one of my noodles this morning, it had gotten itself tangled up in the mesh I used to hold down mosses 😢 I feel like I have failed my noodles.
I was cutting escape holes on the underside of the coconut pieces, when I realised the moss has attached itself completely now and I was able to remove the mesh. Even the Cameroon moss had mostly attached, and with a little bit of gentle help keeping it down I got the mesh pulled out from between the strands. Poor little fish.. ☹️
"Hooker moss" apparently also attaches strongly, which I was surprised to find. It looks like it shouldnt grow under water and therefore I expected it to be weak and pitiful. Not so.
I also figured out why the three coconut pieces of Fissidens shown in the back of this image dont appear to be growing. When I turned them and looked at them sideways, I saw a ton of teeeeeny tiny green fronds. Oh my goodness so small. So small that apparently they are only visible at certain angles 😅 Well, this dum-dum did ask for the smallest ones!




Speaking of small, Hydrocotyle tripartita "Mini". I couldnt figure out how to plant this so I strapped it to a rock and called it a day.



Im going to grow the normal and mini side by side, and get a real good comparison photo. With CO2 they should both grow to a good maximum potential size.




Blurry photo of Mini xmas moss, tiny shrimplet celebrating freedom and photobombing.




Buce "Deep Purple" next to "Black Ventii".




This is what I did with the plants from the shrimp (/fry) rings. Used the mass of tripartita as a base, and then sprinkled sprigs of fussy posh stem plants on top. Hopefully they will survive like this, they can grow out of water if they want. Just want a back-up incase the ones below go t*ts up 😁

As I was taking the last photo I realised I still didnt clean the manky intake. I audibly groaned, because I was feeling pretty done, but told myself that if I want to be a big boy now the least I can do is clean my disgusting filter intake.
I thought I would share my method with you guys.




Keeping the filter running, I have the cut off foot of some ladies tights, that I carefully put over the filter intake, making sure not to knock any of the debris.
I wrap it around a little bit so it will stay, and then I unplug the filter. Without the tights, all the debris would start falling down into the tank. I remove the entire mesh with ladies tights on and clean it. I like to use a bottle cleaning brush, it gets in between the mesh squares and makes it much cleaner. Job done.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I have no idea if the Brownie Ghost invitro cups are anything like the famous BG 2011/2012.



Unfortunately I would suspect not. I’ve had a pot myself, and I’ve read other report from people trying pots, and it’s not the infamous 2011 variety.



Hufsa said:


> I have the cut off foot of some ladies tights



I hope she didn’t mind?! 😂

I do a similar thing, but without the lingerie, using a fine mesh fish net. 😆 

You must have a great shop near you to get all these rarities so easily. Do they have an online store?


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Unfortunately I would suspect not. I’ve had a pot myself, and I’ve read other report from people trying pots, and it’s not the infamous 2011 variety.


Ah, what does yours look like?



Wookii said:


> I hope she didn’t mind?! 😂


Nah she was cool with it once I explained what I needed it for 😁 It was a bit fiddly to cut off while she was wearing it though


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> 4-4,5 hours ramp up time for a 250 liter tank 🤔 Is that "allowed"?


Mine takes 4hrs which probably isn't ideal but if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. 

I'm going to write "takes" just so I can include a post with 5 takes in it 🙄


----------



## Garuf

Kedegang is a meh buce until it settles in and has had 6 or so months, then it seems to glow with the surface shine.


----------



## Hufsa

Im monitoring the drop checker again today and performing a poor mans ph profile, it looks like my injection rate may not suck as much as I was led to believe by the drop checker. 
I havent measured the offgassed tank water yet, but tank water before CO2 came on was 6.9, and one hour later it looks to have dropped to about 6.65. 
Im using the JBL pH Test 6.0-7.6, it only has color reference dots for .2 increments but I often find the color sits between, or in the case below, more like a quarter below halfway.
Its a colorimetric test, so there is some guesstimation involved, but I think im pretty good at it differentiating the colors, maybe its because I am a woman  
I just want to get a _feel / idea_ of how fast its dropping. The roughest outline of the ph curve. So dont come for me 😁


----------



## Hufsa

Work in progress





Looks like it gets most of the drop done in ~ 3 hours


----------



## KirstyF

Been a busy week so just having a catch up here. That’s a monster plant out you’ve got going on. Excited to see how they all go😊



Hufsa said:


> 4-4,5 hours ramp up time for a 250 liter tank 🤔 Is that "allowed"?
> @KirstyF what do you have?



I’ve got mine down to 3hrs before lights ramp up starts, 3.5hrs before full lights but I am injecting ‘all the bubbles’ (I can’t count them) through 2 needle valves and 2 Yidao reactors. Using IRO 1kg of gas pw to maintain a 0.9 - 1ph drop throughout photoperiod. I have a lot of surface agitation mind, so off-gassing is probably fairly high. 

Wouldn’t worry about the long Co2 ramp up time. As @johnq said, if that’s what it takes takes takes!! 

The PH pen is IMO a good buy though (once your wallet recovers from ur plant splurge) It will really help to get your set-up optimal and even when not running a full ph profile, I still tend to pop the probe in for a quick check probably 3 or 4 times on a weekend day. Not sure I really need to, but it takes seconds to do and gives my OCD some comfort. 😂

Good luck with all your preciousness’s.


----------



## Hufsa

Picture spam, hopefully you guys will let me know if it becomes too much 😁





The Pangio doriae is probably just going to be called Silver Noodle. He has found himself a lair under this shell with Fissidens fontanus. Now that there is no mesh there, it is a much better place to hang out  His nose barbels are very peculiar, they are broad and white colored at the base, I cant tell from the limited pictures online if its supposed to be that way or not. He seems perky so I think it might be ok.




Gratuitous shot of two Otocinclus cocama eating breakfast, on the menu today were bits of TA Aquaculture Brine shrimp sticks.




FTS, I hacked back the Hygrophila polysperma a bit as the flow was causing it to splay out over its baby neighbors and shading like I thought it might. 
Stuffed the cuttings into the foreground. #aquascaping
Its already getting pretty rampant, since I turned the gas on it has put out a ton of sideshoots and they're all growing like mad 




Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' - a minute by minute documentary  Will it grow? Will it spontaneously combust, burning down the entire building? Stay tuned to find out


----------



## Hufsa

Half the result of todays effort, im not quite done with the photo series of the drop checker, it has yet to return to neutral.
From the "data" I have so far it appears it could be up to 3 hours behind the actual ph curve 





Based on my entirely-yeehaw-measurements, it looks like I might be getting the drop in by around 3 hours. But, since liquid tests are pretty inaccurate compared to a ph meter, I will keep it at 4 hours until I can repeat the profile using proper tools.
The first part of the photoperiod is such a critical time for the plants, so I would rather start a bit too early than a bit too late.
It looks like my CO2 off-gasses fairly rapidly once my gas shuts off, so I will shorten the interval between that and the lights ramping down to 1 hour instead of 2.
I found the 6.3, 6.2, 6.3 etc measurement pattern amusing, I have no idea why it came out like that, but given the nature of the testing a 0.1 difference can probably be entirely disregarded.

PS: Dont laugh at my graph I tried my best


----------



## Hufsa

Drop checker photoseries. Im unsure if this has any use, but I took the photos so I will post them here for my records anyway.
I need to keep in mind that the drop checker does not respond "linearly", and some say it responds faster to increases than decreases. It does appear to be the case based on the pictures.































I let my tank water sit out in a shallow container for 24 hours and measured it, but I made a mistake because it will have been a bit colder than my aquarium. The ph read 7.2, which would indicate a 1 point drop, which should not be the case. Does anyone have a suggestion to how I can ensure the sample stays the same temperature? Float it in the tank maybe? But how to keep it from tipping over..?


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Drop checker photoseries. Im unsure if this has any use, but I took the photos so I will post them here for my records anyway.
> I need to keep in mind that the drop checker does not respond "linearly", and some say it responds faster to increases than decreases. It does appear to be the case based on the pictures.
> 
> View attachment 183551View attachment 183552View attachment 183553View attachment 183554View attachment 183555View attachment 183556View attachment 183557View attachment 183558View attachment 183559View attachment 183560View attachment 183562View attachment 183561View attachment 183563View attachment 183564
> 
> I let my tank water sit out in a shallow container for 24 hours and measured it, but I made a mistake because it will have been a bit colder than my aquarium. The ph read 7.2, which would indicate a 1 point drop, which should not be the case. Does anyone have a suggestion to how I can ensure the sample stays the same temperature? Float it in the tank maybe? But how to keep it from tipping over..?



You’ve got too little solution in that drop checker @Hufsa - the less you put in it, the larger the air gap, and the longer it will take to react.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> You’ve got too little solution in that drop checker @Hufsa - the less you put in it, the larger the air gap, and the longer it will take to react.


Ah! Is that how it works?



Hufsa said:


> I think I heard decreasing the amount of fluid in the drop checker can make it respond a bit faster, so I will try emptying out about half and see what happens, unless anyone objects.


I wrote this a few posts ago and didnt hear any protests, so I went for it.
So the actual like distance the gas has to travel to get from one surface to the other matters the most?
I could have sworn ive seen people say not to overfill the drop checkers, especially those classic round glass ones. I thought that made the surface area to volume ratio poorer, and therefore made the gas exchange + color change slower.

I thought this first drop checker has the right amount of fluid, the liquid sits at the widest part of the bubble so the surface is fairly large.




However I have seen some who fill them up like this:



I thought this one was wrong, but technically it has a shorter distance from surface to surface?

I dont mean to be argumentative, I just really like understanding how things work


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I wrote this a few posts ago and didnt hear any protests, so I went for it.



Sorry, I missed that one.



Hufsa said:


> So the actual like distance the gas has to travel to get from one surface to the other matters the most?



No, it’s not the distance, it’s the volume. Basically what happens is the CO2 off gasses from the tank water, and into the air space in the drop checker. It keeps doing that until the amount of CO2 in the airspace is at an equilibrium level with the tank water.

As the CO2 levels build up in the airspace, some is absorbed into the indicator solution until that too contains a level of CO2 that is in equilibrium with the airspace. The CO2 solution being a pH indicator fluid then changes colour as the pH drops from the resulting CO2 content.

As such, the larger the air gap (volume of air) in the drop checker, the longer it takes to reach CO2 equilibrium with the tank water, and the longer the indicator solution will take to change colour.



Hufsa said:


> I could have sworn ive seen people say not to overfill the drop checkers



That might apply to those glass ones, as you say, to maximise surface area. But that’s why I don’t think they are very good, because the air gap is unnecessarily large - especially when you consider that CO2 is heavier than air and so has to work it’s way right around the scroll of glass.

The ideal ofcourse would be a gas permeable membrane, which would give the fastest reaction time, but we don’t have that yet.  The JBL ones you have, can have a really small air-gap, for the fastest possible reaction time, and a white background for much easier colour reading than glass ones.


----------



## Hufsa

I see, thanks for that explanation, Im with you now 
So would the ideal drop checker (aside from membrane ones) have a very small air gap volume AND a fairly small liquid volume? Because of this:


Wookii said:


> As the CO2 levels build up in the airspace, some is absorbed into the indicator solution until that too contains a level of CO2 that is in equilibrium with the airspace.


Higher volume of indicator solution should technically take longer to equilibriate with the airspace?
As for the JBL one, I might then theoretically be able to change the liquid color faster by having less of it, but the benefit could be cancelled out by the larger air space we get?


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> So would the ideal drop checker (aside from membrane ones) have a very small air gap volume AND a fairly small liquid volume?



I guess so yes - maximising surface area of the indicator liquid also helps of course - but you need to be able to still read it, and not have the liquid escape into the tank.  I think the JBL design is about the best you can reasonably expect, in an easy to service product.



Hufsa said:


> As for the JBL one, I might then theoretically be able to change the liquid color faster by having less of it, but the benefit could be cancelled out by the larger air space we get?



I would say so yes - I think CO2 absorbs into liquid easier than it is off gassed, so a smaller air gap and a larger liquid volume, is better than a larger air gap and smaller liquid volume (surface area remaining consistent) if you have to choose between the two.


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> Float it in the tank maybe? But how to keep it from tipping over..?



I’ve floated my samples before but it was much easier as I just used a wide necked bottle and clamped the top between two of the glass lids. 

Maybe an elastic band around a bottle, attached to a sucker cup?


----------



## Hufsa

Today im going to do a normal sunday water change (50%), trying to get back into the regular rythm. Gonna wait until the lights go out so I dont disturb the photoperiod 

I also need to whip up another batch of ferts, I can see my dosing containers are running low.
Im not going to make the batch last super long, I can see dosing changes in the horizon for my tank, two months ought to do.
For now I will avoid rocking the boat too much, and go for 2/3 EI and my usual DTPA Fe + APFUK traces.
When the tank is more stable and I have grown out my plants a bit, I want to try gradually replacing some of the KNO3 with Urea, and maybe doing custom traces.

I can tell my tank is still out of balance, the water appears slightly cloudy, it has been like this for a bit. It smells a bit stronger of the tank than it usually does too. There also looks to be a slight biofilm (that is not algae) on the glass, I can see the snails making slight tracks where they have gone. I have not scraped the glass because of this, I think the tank can use all the beneficial archaea/bacteria it has at the moment. The Eheim canister is due for a "clean", but I think I should do it gently. Hopefully as long as I just "keep a steady hand on the steering wheel" and avoid doing all sorts of maneuvers, the tank will find its way to balance again with the help of the plants. The algae appears to have decreased a little bit, maybe? Im not seeing quite as large bands of diatoms on the edges of plant leaves. I have trimmed off a lot of old algae infested growth, but the Buces still have some leaves with BBA, I dont want to remove more of those until the plants get a few new ones to rely on.








The Crypt we assume is Queen Vandom recently put out a new leaf, its much greener than its old ones so the plant looks to be recovering, although slowly. Its probably doing a fair amount of root growth as well.












Assumed Silver Queen has one leaf made in my tank and another on the way, Im hoping to see some better color and a pattern appearing eventually.




The Striolatas got a bit offended with all the disturbance lately, so their latest leaves didnt develop to full size. I see the Mini one has another on the way though.




Myriophyllum Guyana is one I can tell has grown a bit, I wish everything was much faster, I keep checking every 10 minutes but all the plants have still not made it to the surface of the tank  They should hurry up I am very impatient.








My old Ammannia crassicaulis is a bit confused, a few stems look ok, a few have stunted and the one that was the dominant stem is super confused and has curled up all its leaves. Its ok little plant, you will figure it out.




Ludwigia sp. Marilia showing some yellow tones on the new growth. Ill be happy if it will turn yellow for me, we have a lot of narrow leaved yellow plants but not a lot of round yellow so I quite like the look of it.




Pantanal and Cuba looks so different, I dont know why.. Maybe they came from different nurseries?




This shot is always a pain, I have to angle the phone on the glass and it just distorts everything.




I think my Super Red looks a little pale 🤔 Not sure what thats about.

Lastly the plants in the basket are making their way out of the water. I will find a better solution for them once they have some more emersed growth.


----------



## plantnoobdude

looks super good. The ammania looks decent as well, those mosses(plural form??) and crypts are to die for!!!
any noticable difference with co2? as for the cuba and pantanal, maybe the humidity inside the tc cups was different?


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> any noticable difference with co2?


Some yeah, polysperma is going wild, sending out shoots on every node, it never did that before. Every buce is putting out a new leaf, they're going out at record speeds. My bolbitis and javaferns are pearling a lot a few hours after light comes on, my entire watercolumn is covered with tiny tiny oxygen bubbles too, I think the ones in the column are mainly coming from the polysperma, and just get whisked away before they can build up.
I think the plants are still in the process of reprogramming their enzymes and whatnot, they probably had them running "at max" for 2-3ppm CO2 before, and now suddenly they have access to ~20ppm and they have to redo everything. New lighting level as well. I heard it can take 1-2 weeks to do, I started the gas at the 17th, but they havent had 20ppm since that date. So theres probably 1,5 - 2 weeks more until they are adjusted better.

My otos are much happier, but I think it is because the kuhli loaches are keeping them company. They got very reclusive when the corys disappeared, but now they are out and about again like old times.

A weird change is that my trumpet snails are crawling on the glass, especially at night. 
If this was a fish tank I would be highly highly alarmed. But since I have so many plants and the watercolumn is literally full of oxygen bubbles in the day I am not quite as alarmed, but still concerned. 
Maybe they are taking offense to the ph? But why at night? 🤔


----------



## Konsa

Hi there.
Lovely update. 
Glad things are working out for you even if its not as fast as you wish 
Do not worry about the snails.If you are talking about the Malaysian trumpets they do come up during the night.They have always done this in my tanks regardless of them being low or high tech its just part of their normal behaviour.I used this as my advantage to reduce population if needed picking them out from the sides early in morning before lights on.
Regards Konstantin


----------



## Hufsa

Ive kept fish (and trumpet snails) for something like 15 years now, ive never seen them do this before in my tanks 
I only know that in fishkeeping circles, if your MTS go to the top at night something is really wrong


----------



## Konsa

Hi 
Yes I see how critters going towards the surface can be a sign of sth worrying in the tank.But 
mine never went to the top really. They do come on the sides even if  it was close to substrate level only and Im sure not all of them as population was huge.
I guess benefits of forums is you can come across different experiences someone else has had .I do have observed  this behaviour and heard others sharing it when someone asked how to reduce booming population of MTS usually someone will come and say to pick them out early morning from sides 
Im really surprised you haven't come across this before. 
Regards Konstantin


----------



## Hufsa

Hm yeah, its strange. They dont seem to go all the way to the waters surface, which is a good sign. 
They are also all going to the corner of the tank that is towards the window, so the glass panes on that side would have the most algae.. maybe they are hungry?? 
I have fed the tank a lot less lately 🤔 
The tank got too much food over winter because the fishsticks moved out but I didnt reduce the autofeeder dose. So I got a population boom of all sorts of snails. 
Then I reduced that and lately been feeding sparingly by hand, since the tank hasnt been quite well. 
Theres a ton of empty Physa snail shells all over the tank now too. 
Either the Physa snails are starving to death, or the kuhlis are eating em.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Theres a ton of empty Physa snail shells all over the tank now too.
> Either the Physa snails are starving to death, or the kuhlis are eating em.


I think they eat them.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Will take more pictures of the tank tomorrow, dont think there is hardly enough exciting things happening for spamming the forum with photos every day, I feel bad enough already  Put in some more of that "el bow griis" everyone is talking about, and trimmed off some more old plant leaves. It feels much better to trim off old growth when new stuff is growing out so fast.

Been doing a little more digging on cryptocorynes, seems like Cryptocoryne "Queen Vandom" could be Cryptocoryne fusca. Someone on the facebook group "Cryptocoryne Corner" has bloomed a plant sold as Queen Vandom, and found the spathe looks a lot like fusca. I also found this chinese blog, which shows pictures of a plant with slight green stripes, pinkish glittery markings on a green leaf, much like the pictures of Queen Vandom on google. The blog entry says the pictures are of C. fusca.
Based on this I think maybe I will refer to my plant with the full name of Cryptocoryne fusca "Queen Vandom" from now on, does anyone know if this is the correct way to write it? I dont know much about plant naming rules, is there a difference between writing something with " " and ' ' ?

Ill be stopping by the "crypt-LFS" this weekend to look for a second Silver Queen for a friend, and I was thinking of picking up one or two of the ones labeled as Ferruginea as well. They are apparently not as boldly patterned as something like striolata, but is said to be a much more easy-going crypt.



dw1305 said:


> I think they eat them.


 I think so too


----------



## Hufsa

🚨Picture warning🚧🛑





FTS. Water seems to be clearing up a bit. I dont normally use floss in my filters, so im happy to see it seems to be clearing up on its own.
The polysperma was running out of space in the foreground, I pulled them out and let them float in the corner. Im not quite ready to let go of them, but soon.










I did a bit of rearranging of the rocks and mosses etc, wanted the taller stuff in the back so small things werent stuck in slow flow zones behind things.








Fontinalis seems to really like CO2, it seems to have done a lot of growing suddenly. I also see there is more thread algae on it I need to remove 😅
I am planning to do a blackout + maybe some treatment for the thread algae eventually, but I want to grow out these baby plants first before I start messing with the light. Algae is annoying sure but not dangerous.




Hufsa's special Hooker moss in progress. I havent forgotten about your order @Garuf , its just a bit slow growing 




Silver noodle still lives under the Fissidens fontanus shell. He was alarmed and highly offended when I lifted the shell to relocate it yesterday. 
I assume hes back in there this morning  I should rotate it again so the little opening is facing the front, that way we can see his tail sticking out or his little face occasionally.
In my mind he is actually called "Ormen Lange", which translates to something like "The Long Serpent". I didnt really know where it came from, it just showed up from my subconscious, so had been meaning to google the name to see what it was. 
I was expecting some sort of Nessie-like local myth. 
No.. 
Google was quick to inform me that it is an oil field off the coast of Norway 
But the oil field took the name of a famous viking longship. So I guess that is a little more romantic, even though it feels a bit less special than I had hoped thanks to the oil 




Side view of one of the teeny tiny "2D" fissidens species.




"The bad angle", ill just keep retaking this shot so I can compare the growth, even though it is -never- in focus.




Pantanal is starting to look something remotely similar to pantanal, getting some thin leaves and a little bit of color.. hope to see it gain some size soon, im nervous 




At this point in the photoshoot I start wondering if its just the camera making things look chlorotic, or if stuff really is a bit too pale... 🤔




Bucephalandra Black Venti is loving the CO2, theres just a few old BBA leaves left to trim, the rest is all fresh new leaves. I really like this buce, it stands out well. To the left of it is floating some uhhh.. _checks notes_  Pearl Gray! phew almost got me there. I cant tell the Pearl Gray apart from the Silver Grey yet, and they are just floating in each their side of the tank, so Im a little bit nervous of losing track of them. Aside from the one I bought that had already lost its name, I am firmly determined to keep track of all of mine. I have planned what I think is a devious little system for doing so, will write more on this when my secret supplies arrive..








The Guyana is especially affected by the window near the tank. Since the photoperiod is so short atm (sneeze and you'll miss it), the plants spend a decent time every morning trying to grow towards the ambient light. Im not convinced this is good for them. I want to increase the photoperiod again gradually when I feel like things are stable enough for it.




Ammannia crassicaulis got stripped of a lot of old crusty leaves, the two stems in front will get the same treatment as soon as they have made a decent start at new tops.




I really like this plant 🥰 Have I mentioned that?

Since I was starting to doubt what I was seeing with light tops, I pulled out my old trick and took some photos from above. I unplugged the Ultramax and the CO2 but forgot the Eheim that runs the bottom spray bar, so there is a little bit of distortion in the images.








Does seem like tops are a little too light..
I then ran the doser a bit manually for both macros and micros. Im still using up the remnants left in the dosing containers, they should be adding like 16 ppm NO3 + stuff weekly, but since I recently did a lot of water changes, I dont think it has accumulated to the right level in the watercolumn yet. Theres only about two days or so left in the containers and then ill pour in the new ferts, should be 20 ppm NO3 + stuff weekly after that, 2/3 EI.




I like this shot, its like a rainbow 








Rotalas also looking light from above. Can you see the pattern on the Crypt purpurea? 
I think they will be a very decorative addition to the tank, a nice green leaf with subtle dark patterning 🥰




Some more "Skittles, taste the rainbow" 




The remnants of my algae crew  RIP. Who is going to clean all the tiny plant leaves now?




Even just up the hill from the first pic there are more empty shells.
Maybe ill have to buy more shrimp instead to replace my lost workers.. but pest snails are free and more shrimp are not 
I could build a wall to keep them safe, and make the kuhlis pay for it!


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Does seem like tops are a little too light..


light coloured tips are caused by too little Fe, Mn or Mg as that can help aid iron uptake.



this plant shows clear signs of it, lysimachia nummularia?
tonina as well, shows iron deficiency very quickly, but it also is a bit sensitive to the other non Fe micros I think.



tank looks great and it looks like the majority of plants are putting on good growth!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


>





Hufsa said:


> At this point in the photoshoot I start wondering if its just the camera making things look chlorotic, or if stuff really is a bit too pale...


"_Too pale_" would be my guess. As it is the new leaves it is likely to be lack of available iron (Fe) and it will take the plants <"a while to recover">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Garuf

Haha I’m in no hurry. 

There’s an idea for you in there for a scape, a Norwegian landscape tank. 

You even. Get to collect your own rocks n wood n stuff!


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> light coloured tips are caused by too little Fe, Mn or Mg as that can help aid iron uptake.





dw1305 said:


> As it is the new leaves it is likely to be lack of available iron (Fe) and it will take the plants <"a while to recover">.


Yes I know iron deficiency guys  Because of the many water changes my water could have been running a bit lean so its just a case of adding some more



plantnoobdude said:


> this plant ... lysimachia nummularia?


Looks quite like it, but its Ludwigia sp. "Marilia" 😊 Turns a lovely sunny yellow



Garuf said:


> There’s an idea for you in there for a scape, a Norwegian landscape tank.


If I design some fjords, do you reckon it would be an award-winning* scape 
(*for Darrel)


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> If I design some fjords,


"_Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy_?" I claim my prize.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> I claim my prize.


I'll buy you one whole norwegian-priced beer if you ever visit! 😘


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Because of the many water changes my water could have been running a bit lean so its just a case of adding some more



You've also switched from low energy and mainly epiphytes, to high energy and fast growing stems, so you may want to re-examine your dosing in general.



Hufsa said:


> I'll buy you one whole norwegian-priced beer if you ever visit! 😘



Claim it Darrel - he didn't specify size!:


----------



## Garuf

I can’t see why not, it’d be a nice change if nothing else to all the Brazilian tanks and dioramas.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> You've also switched from low energy and mainly epiphytes, to high energy and fast growing stems, so you may want to re-examine your dosing in general.


Was 1/5 EI, now 2/3  The doser just needs a little time and possibly some help to catch up



Wookii said:


> Claim it Darrel - he didn't specify size!:


He !? 
As for the size, ive made a terrible mistake. I'll call my bank immediately to inquire about a loan


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> I'll buy you one whole norwegian-priced beer if you ever visit!


Now, that really is a generous offer.






Same applies, if you ever come to <"the land of the groat">, I'll buy you as much of <"Devizes finest"> as you can drink/ I can afford. We've had a Swedish house swap and a Danish work away (even though he was really a friend of my daughter) but I'm pretty sure we've never entertained a Norwegian.

It has to be said many of foreign visitors have not reacted to Cricket, Farmhouse Cheddar cheese,  genuine Bitter beer or Egremont Russet apples in quite the way I was hoping.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Garuf

Oh how I miss good cheese and sausages. 

You can keep that horrible brown Norwegian “cheese” 🤢


----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> More heresy


How dare you, brunost is a national treasure


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> He !?



Erm . . . .    



Hufsa said:


> As for the size, ive made a terrible mistake. I'll call my bank immediately to inquire about a loan



Maybe you can pay the bar in instalments! 🤣


----------



## MichaelJ

Hufsa said:


> How dare you, brunost is a national treasure


I had to look up Brunost - I don't think I've seen that here in Minnesota where we have a LOT of Norwegian/Scandinavian heritage. It looks pretty good to me   I wonder if it goes by another name than _brown cheese_ here in the US.


----------



## Hufsa

MichaelJ said:


> I had to look up Brunost - I don't think I've seen that here in Minnesota where we have a LOT of Norwegian/Scandinavian heritage. It looks pretty good to me   I wonder if it goes by another name here in the US.


Its good if you dont expect cheese, think caramel / fudge  Can pair it with wholegrain bread and jam, or with butter on a waffle or a pancake 😊


----------



## Wookii

It sounds a whole lot better than Swedish Surströmming at least! 🤢


----------



## Garuf

Wookii said:


> It sounds a whole lot better than Swedish Surströmming at least! 🤢


I mean, I’ve had both and the fish one was more palatable. 

It’s certainly not a Staffordshire oatcake though.


----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> I mean, I’ve had both and the fish one was more palatable.


Do you want moss or not "neighbor"?!


----------



## Hufsa

Ive been considering, considering and reconsidering ferts, 2/3 EI -should- be enough for the new setup, right? @Wookii
Two fluvals running at 30% each, not exactly "photon lasers", so medium light, 20ppm CO2 but tank should be light limited so that doesnt matter so much. Full EI is supposed to be unlimiting for "the nosebleeds", my tank isnt in that league. I could just increase the dose by 50% and do full EI, just feels unnecessary y'know? Especially since im going for lean within some months and want to ramp it all down slowly.. 🤔


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Ive been considering, considering and reconsidering ferts, 2/3 EI -should- be enough for the new setup, right? @Wookii
> Two fluvals running at 30% each, not exactly "photon lasers", so medium light, 20ppm CO2 but tank should be light limited so that doesnt matter so much. Full EI is supposed to be unlimiting for "the nosebleeds", my tank isnt in that league. I could just increase the dose by 50% and do full EI, just feels unnecessary y'know? Especially since im going for lean within some months and want to ramp it all down slowly.. 🤔



The choice is yours at the end of the day. If you want to go the lean route, then just watch the plants. You’ve got an iron deficiency currently, so address that, and then see what happens. If you get any other deficiencies deal with them as they arise. 

I forget, are you mixing your own ferts?


----------



## Hufsa

Alright, thanks 😊 I'll go for 2/3 EI for now, make sure its topped up a bit after a water change, and just see how it does with that level.
Yep I am mixing my own ferts, although still using CSMB traces + Fe DTPA for now


----------



## Tyko_N

Sorry to derail the thread further but I have to agree with Hufsa:


Hufsa said:


> How dare you, brunost is a national treasure


Brunost/mesost is great, at least if you can find a small scale producer, since the one in the shops tends to be pretty bland.


Wookii said:


> It sounds a whole lot better than Swedish Surströmming at least! 🤢


Yep, that stuff is awful and is only fed to unsuspecting tourists these days. The trick to eating Surströmming is by having it in a flat bread with plenty of potato, onion, and mayonnaise, but then you might as well skip the fish. Whatever you do don't open the can indoors!


----------



## Hufsa

Sad news today, I just found two dead kuhli loaches 😢 
They were not stuck in anything, and looked entirely intact, I have no idea what took them.. 
I also cannot find the silver noodle anywhere 😟 

Normally this kind of thing would have me really upset for most of the week, so much that ive been close to quitting the hobby several times because of it. 
I have gotten a bit better about not taking it quite as harshly, so im sad but in a more constructive way.

Everyone else seems perfectly normal, I wonder if there was anything wrong with them from the store or not.. They had only recently gotten them in.

I will test the water for ammonium/ammonia, but I think I have to open a brand new test for it since I havent used my open one in a while. 
I dont test my water that often, liquid tests sure get really expensive if you only get one use per kit before they expire 

Other than that I think im just going to monitor the situation and see.. The plants are growing and no one else seems unsettled.

Besides those unpleasant news, I was just going to note that I increased the photoperiod a bit. 
From 6 to 7 hours would be the gradual choice but I bumped it up to 8 right away. 
No super good reason, 6 just feels too short and my plants are growing really sideways from the ambient light before the photoperiod. 
So I added the hours at the start of the photoperiod, not towards the evening. Adjusted CO2 timer and skimmer and everything else to fit.

Ive always got it in the back of my mind that the photoperiod in the wild for most of our plants is ~12 hours, sometimes more. 
It seems most high tech tanks run 6-8 hours. The reason I find most often stated is algae or something along those lines. 
I wonder if I can do injected CO2 and 12 hours. Not right now obviously, but later I want to try. This is "Hufsa does high tech" after all.. 
An inability to follow simple instructions and a general lack of common sense might turn over a few stones that are normally left unturned. 
Maybe it will work, maybe I will get a lot of algae. I would like to find out.
My light is not very intense so the setup could be different to really high light tanks.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Sad news today, I just found two dead kuhli loaches 😢



Sorry to hear that, its always upsetting losing fish. 



Hufsa said:


> Ive always got it in the back of my mind that the photoperiod in the wild for most of our plants is ~12 hours, sometimes more.
> It seems most high tech tanks run 6-8 hours. The reason I find most often stated is algae or something along those lines.
> I wonder if I can do injected CO2 and 12 hours. Not right now obviously, but later I want to try. This is "Hufsa does high tech" after all..



I run my high tech for 12 hours without issue, but the lighting levels beneath the surface are lower due to all the floating plants. A 12 hour lighting level is fine for a high tech, you just have to adjust the lighting accordingly - run 12 hours in 'photon cannon' mode, and you'll likely run into issues. 

I would say you'll be fine gradually going up to 12 hours at your currently lighting levels, just don't forget to change your CO2 timer at the same time.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> I run my high tech for 12 hours without issue, but the lighting levels beneath the surface are lower due to all the floating plants.


Oh, I must have missed this, that is really good to hear  I should reread your journal, who knows what other useful stuff I could have missed 😮
Glad to know someone is already having success with it, better odds then


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> Normally this kind of thing would have me really upset for most of the week, so much that ive been close to quitting the hobby several times because of it.
> I have gotten a bit better about not taking it quite as harshly, so im sad but in a more constructive way.


I had exactly the same reaction when my first fish died.  And especially when I inadvertently caused mass shrimp genocide (very obviously my fault as opposed to being a bit unknowable).  I felt like I'd completely failed in my duty of care.  
Fish deaths are the inevitable bitter edge to this hobby. It took time and - unexpectedly - the two-part documentary on <the fish trade of the Amazon> for me to start coming to terms with that.


----------



## Hufsa

Some update spam pictures. Some of the plants look a -tiny- bit better and some I cant see any change in.
Im a nervous nelly and I fear the posh plants are rejecting the transplant into my peasant tank  

I was unable to persuade my nerves to calm down, so I increased the ferts up to full EI (30, 3, 30, 0.5 + traces)

I mixed up this new batch of ferts with the IFC calculator, thanks to this very helpful post I was able to use it for the first time despite not having the Excel program to run it.
Im going over my notes as I am writing this, as I am getting a bit suspicious of human error at this point and wondering if I have messed something up either in my numbers input or in previous calculations.. If there is a mistake it will likely have been already in the last batch, since things have been looking chlorotic for a while 🤔
It seems the batch from 25.10.21 had -more- Fe DTPA than EDTA, while the batch from 10.12.21, DTPA is about half that of EDTA. Could it really just be down to that? 
It could explain why I can be dosing at levels that my experience indicates is enough for my tank, but still see chlorosis...
If its simply down to ineffective chelation then I should probably spike my new batch with some more DTPA, that way I wont have to go all gung-ho about the rest of the micros just to get some iron into these plants.

While I was squinting hard at the plants looking for improvement I spotted an interesting thing in the below picture. Immediately to the left of the rock with Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Mini' unceremoniously strapped to it, there is a rock of native Fissidens, should be Fissidens adianthoides if memory serves. Doesnt it look like the newest growth on it has changed a bit?  
Maybe it likes the recent addition of CO2


----------



## plantnoobdude

@Hufsa looking at tonina it looks not like deficiency. 


especially this stem. I think it's variegation. variegatin is fairly common in TC. afaik there are very few variegated stable eriocaulocaea, you may have something truly precious! if the colours revert, try and trim it back to where you last saw the white leaves. something like that can go for ~50 euro/stem if it proves stable.


----------



## plantnoobdude

ah, it looks like it might not be stable..


in case anyone doesn't want to click on the link:
"This here is a marbled/non-patterned sectorial chimera of a white mutation and normal Tonina fluviatilis that is not stable.

A chimera is any organism that has two or more sets of genomes in it. In this case, normal green Tonina fluvuatilis as one and a white mutation as the other. Marbled/Non-patterned-sectorial is a word to describe how each of the genomes are spread with in the shoot tip (Shoot Apical Meristem) which makes the whole plant, it means you have a random mix of each. Not stable here means that eventually the green tissue divides faster than the white so the ratio of green to white goes towards green as the plant grows, eventually being all green and of course never reverting back.

No matter how many sideshoots I tried or in what conditions I grew it, I could not get it to show a stable pattern. So it's a plant that wasn't meant to be.

Edit: A word on the how-to: By sheer luck I found a streak of lighter colored tissue in a stem of Tonina. I recognized that streak as a chlorophyll mutation and in an effort to get a sideshoot with more of that mutation I forced that stem to sprout from a node where the lateral bud intersects with the white streak. Eventually, the shoot above emerged as a sideshoot of a sideshoot. While that it is of course sad it failed, I did gain a nugget of knowledge: The marbled Cultivar "Tonina fluviatilis 'Marble Queen'" is most likely not a chimera, because it is stable, unlike my chimera here."


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> I think it's variegation


While it would be a fun thing to have, im not so sure about that. I think this "whatever deficiency" is just showing up a bit striped in this species, I can see the effect more or less pronounced in all of the Tonina stems. That coupled with all the hungry plants looking pale I think it is unlikely to be anything else. You can even see the paleness on the new leaves of the trident fern to the very left of Tonina.


----------



## John q

Mate.. if you were looking at this tank and offering advice what would it be?  🤔  you know the answers.  😀


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> you know the answers.  😀


----------



## Hufsa

So the virus got me in the end, Ive just about had one foot in the grave for exactly 24 hours. Sundays water change I could just forget about, I could barely summon enough consciousness to shuffle from the bedroom to the bathroom occasionally. If this is the light version for vaccinated people then I dont want to know how the original stuff feels like  Luckily I am feeling quite a lot better today, so Ive put some water in the big blue barrel to get the right temperature, and will get the water change done when that is ready.

The tank has been looking better for a while now, since about mid last week the water has been clear and I felt ok enough with it to scrape the front glass. Just like I thought there was a fair amount of biofilm on it. 




On saturday I pulled out the Limnophila sessiliflora, that plant looks horrible with CO2 injection, its all stem. Also threw out the extra floating stems of polysperma. Shifted the Cryptocoryne purpurea  grouping a little bit closer to the front, and the Rotalas too. The Rotalas have been a bit floaty, there was a fair bit of non viable material at the bottom of the planted plugs, and the growing stems have been prone to coming loose and floating all over the place. Ive been dutifully cramming them back in on a daily basis.



















I see I have another melting leaf on the B. Black Ventii, I think its probably just a result of really aggressive trimming that has it upset.





Im not happy with how the plants are looking, not seeing any clear signs the new growth is coming in much better. Thinking I either need to spike the current micro with more DTPA or make another micro mix entirely. I want to do the latter but im not sure its a good idea when my brain has been recently cooked and is not running on 100% power yet.


----------



## Karmicnull

Hufsa said:


> If this is the light version for vaccinated people then I dont want to know how the original stuff feels like


That was exactly what I thought when I caught it.  Glad you're through the worst of it now.


----------



## KirstyF

Sorry to hear u’ve been poorly. Swift recovery I hope.🤞

Maybe leave that new mix til the brain fudge eases up a bit eh!……or next post reads……I’m now dosing……something!!!!🤪


----------



## Wookii

Get well soon @Hufsa - I got lucky when I had it over Christmas, I’ve had worse hangovers, but it clearly affects folks differently.


----------



## NatalieHurrell

Hope you're on the mend @Hufsa.  It seems to get people in completely different ways and yours sounds like a nastier version.


----------



## Wookii

@Hufsa - can I ask, what is the mesh you are using on these moss rocks? How do you secure it on the underside, with a grip-tie or similar?


----------



## Hufsa

@Wookii it is a black loofah, something like these:



I bought mine off ebay, I was only able to source the ones that look highlighted like the one on the right, this kind has two stripes of white running through it but I use just the black parts, works fine unless you need to cover a very large area. I place the mesh from above and then twist the loose ends around to a point under the rock/coconut. It helps to take the moss by surprise as it can sense hesitation and it gets messy if you move the mesh on top around after you have started. I then finish up with a small black zip tie and cut off the mesh that sticks out.
Please be warned though if you use it on something hollow under like a coconut, its risky to certain kinds of fish, they can get stuck in there, I lost a kuhli from it poor thing. The safest is to use stone where there are no gaps between the mesh and the stone.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> @Wookii it is a black loofah, something like these:
> View attachment 184244
> I bought mine off ebay, I was only able to source the ones that look highlighted like the one on the right, this kind has two stripes of white running through it but I use just the black parts, works fine unless you need to cover a very large area. I place the mesh from above and then twist the loose ends around to a point under the rock/coconut. It helps to take the moss by surprise as it can sense hesitation and it gets messy if you move the mesh on top around after you have started. I then finish up with a small black zip tie and cut off the mesh that sticks out.
> Please be warned though if you use it on something hollow under like a coconut, its risky to certain kinds of fish, they can get stuck in there, I lost a kuhli from it poor thing. The safest is to use stone where there are no gaps between the mesh and the stone.



Great stuff! Do you find it lasts well in the tank (i.e. doesn’t disintegrate over time)?


----------



## Hufsa

If my method isnt quite clear I can do a little picture tutorial once I am feeling better, I am still pretty sick and I know you guys wouldn't want me to rush with it so it would have to be in a few days. Otherwise as an alternative I think I originally learned it from a Rachel O'Leary youtube video, if someone can find it feel free to post it here.

Thats a good question about longevity @Wookii , Ive never had a problem with it, but since I suffer from chronic consistency deficiency I do change up my mossy rocks and whatnots every now and then. But the mesh ones with susswassertang have been in there for at least a year now it must have been, maybe year and a half. It seems exactly the same as when I put it in

What'cha planning to wrap? 😃


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> What'cha planning to wrap? 😃



Lots of prescious’s . . . just like you! 





I have loads of small pieces of lava rock, and I want to attach various mosses I have to it in my next tank, rather than tying or gluing to larger pieces of hardscape.


----------



## swyftfeet

@Hufsa  hope you're feeling better!    I wonder if getting it is just a matter of time now.


----------



## Hufsa

Im really not feeling well as I am writing this, so the update is a bit short and unedited. Still dealing with the aftermath of the virus coupled with making some existing health issues worse, so it is what it is. The pictures are uncropped and probably not the best.

Firstly the happiest news I have had in a while, exactly a week ago I was watching the tank when I suddenly saw a silvery flash go by in a little hole in the wood. The Long Serpent lives! The cheeky little monkey had me thinking he was 6 feet under, pushing up daisies and pining for the fjords, that I had somehow missed finding the body and the rest of the inmates had disposed of the evidence. But no, this sneaky little snake has been hanging out in his own personal clubhouse having a jolly good time, leaving me worrying all week for nothing!





He was eventually convinced to come out using some earthworm sticks as bait, although it took him at least ten minutes of sniffing the water, throwing his head to and fro in anger that he had to leave his cosy little cubbyhole to get at the food, and then some more pined considerations until he finally came tumbling out.





Ive since seen him out and about a few times, but he appears to spend most of his time in the wood. He seems to have memorized an easy way of getting in and out, as I can be looking at him one moment, turn my head and the next he is gone and will eventually appear in his little window. The majority of the wood is hollow, so I think he is entering from the end of the branch and slithering his way up somehow.








He came out again a few days ago to have a bit of a smorgasbord with his friends. I wonder if an assembly of noodles can be called a spaghetti.




FTS. Plants are meh. Mixed bag.




The tangle in the middle is a second crypt "rescued" from the LFS, if all goes to plan this one and the existing one to the left are "Silver Queen". Right now they're not looking much like anything, so only time will tell.








Unhappy Tonina and Pantanal, Pantanal is doing some stunting looking business and the Tonina just looks pale. Cuba is still a bit pale but growing pretty well and increasing in size unlike its poor brother.






Rotalas not showing much improvement that I can see. I havent changed any of the ferts from last I wrote, ive just been too sick.
Cryptocoryne purpurea seems happy and is sending out increasingly larger new leaves. C. fusca "Queen Vandom" is sending out a new fat looking leaf as well. At least I can grow something 😕 Narrow brownish looking leaves to the right of it is Cryptocoryne ferruginea I picked up at the same time as the second Silver Queen.








Ammannia pedicellata "Golden" has stunted real good. I wonder if the increase in ferts did it, or if it was something else entirely. Not enough data to conclude anything. Ammannia crassicaulis or whatever the correct name is seems ok enough, a few stunted stems but the ones that are growing look good. Both Pogostemon and Guyana seem just fine.

I havent gotten around to a water change yet, its half a week overdue. I ran out of the premade remineralizer and my brain has just been too foggy to work out how much CaSO4 and MgSO4 to add to the water change barrel from the seperate powders I have. Hope to have it done by the weekend



Will leave you with this picture I have titled "Existence is pain - food too far away"


----------



## John q

Lovely pictures @Hufsa 

Can imagine how you feel mate, just take it day by day. The old mojo will return soon enough.


----------



## MichaelJ

Hufsa said:


> Im really not feeling well as I am writing this, so the update is a bit short and unedited. Still dealing with the aftermath of the virus coupled with making some existing health issues worse, so it is what it is.


Hey @Hufsa - my favorite Mummitroll !!  Get well soon! 

Nice pictures!

Best,
Michael


----------



## KirstyF

Hope ur feeling better soon hon. 

Lovin ur puddle of noodles. 😍


----------



## erwin123

love the variety of plants. I have found it hard for Pantanal and A.Pedicatella to co-exist though. The former loves EI dosing while the latter likes lean dosing..... 

I guess the important thing now is to have consistency and see which plants thrive - those that thrive are keepers, while those that stunt badly can be replaced with something new.... just repeat the process until you have a tank full of plants that are happy with the ferts/water parameters


----------



## plantnoobdude

erwin123 said:


> love the variety of plants. I have found it hard for Pantanal and A.Pedicatella to co-exist though. The former loves EI dosing while the latter likes lean dosing.....
> 
> I guess the important thing now is to have consistency and see which plants thrive - those that thrive are keepers, while those that stunt badly can be replaced with something new.... just repeat the process until you have a tank full of plants that are happy with the ferts/water parameters


if you look at happis pictures, you will see it;s possible. ammannia and pantanal thriving.
Happi-singh


----------



## Hufsa

Thanks for the wishes everyone 🥰



erwin123 said:


> love the variety of plants. I have found it hard for Pantanal and A.Pedicatella to co-exist though. The former loves EI dosing while the latter likes lean dosing.....


Thanks, its pathological 😁 ..Yeah I sorta knew Pantanal and Pedicellata might be a difficult pair of plants to match. Im a sucker for punishment though. Difficult is where all the good learn'dings are at, at least I think it is 🤔 I wasnt feeling too optimistic about things yesterday but thanks to the marvel of modern medicine I am feeling a bit less dead today and my outlook has increased somewhat to match 



erwin123 said:


> I guess the important thing now is to have consistency and see which plants thrive - those that thrive are keepers, while those that stunt badly can be replaced with something new.... just repeat the process until you have a tank full of plants that are happy with the ferts/water parameters


The only good thing that came from being so gosh darng sick was that I couldnt physically mess with the ferts no matter how much I wanted to, so I was just forced to let things run its course for a while. If I actually tally up the species that are doing good vs the ones doing poorly, it doesnt seem that bad at all. I am drawn to focus on the things that arent going well, so im going to keep trying to grow both out of good old fashioned stubbornness. From what I hear Pedicellata is at the higher end of the "prefers lean" scale, so it might be possible to grow both satisfactorily. Even if I ultimately fail I like to give things a good try. If I had to pick one of the two species to keep, I think I would have to fall on the side of pedicellata, the Golden just looks so nice when its happy, while you can get all manner of orange/red/pink from a large variety of other plants than Pantanal. I hear the one they call Meta is much easier to grow, probably wont be able to source that any time soon but is a good candidate for trying down the road.



plantnoobdude said:


> if you look at happis pictures, you will see it;s possible. ammannia and pantanal thriving.
> Happi-singh


I took a look but couldnt immediately identify, it might be I am still a bit too smooth-brained post virus but the blurple tone on some of the pics didnt help me with the ID's 😅 Ive seen some of his pictures in the lean dosing thread, for a lot of them I wish they came with more in depth context, yes they're very pretty plants but I like really specific details, how, when, why, before/after, tell me everything.


Right now on my to-do list:
-Scrunch brain enough to figure out how to remineralize with new salts, then do water change.
-When brain satisfactorily un-smoothed, redo micro mix. 
Gotta fix whatever this chlorosis thing is. Whats bugging me is that the sheer amount of iron that is currently being added should be more than sufficient. Its being added daily so theoretically I should be able to use whatever chelate I want. To just keep blindly adding more of the same when its obviously not working quite right seems like a mistake somehow. I should google how manganese deficiency presents, maybe Happi is onto something with all that stuff. I want some more DTPA because that seems to have worked well in the past, and would like to go fully custom ratios while im at it but im not sure when I will trust myself to do that sort of detail work again. Mess up potassium in a mix and whoopsie, nothing will happen. Mess up copper more than just a little bit and whoopsie all your fish are dead. Stakes are bit higher. So more DTPA iron yes, custom traces maybe not quite yet.

My CO2 implementation is almost certainly bad right now, the drop checker seems to have taken a turn for the bluer, and without a proper ph profile the whole thing is just an unknown. I have quite aggressive growth of BBA and thread algae. I had to stop trimming off algae coated leaves on the buces, at the rate things were going I would have killed the plants. So I need to deal with the root cause before trimming off any more. I was never a fan of treating symptoms anyway, partly from principle and partly laziness. Ive been pretty good at manually removing hair algae recently, but it is competing with water changes for my very limited amount of energy, so im not sure if I am approaching that at the right end. I would think water changes are more important than manual removal of algae, but im not absolutely sure.


----------



## Hufsa

I did it! Figured out the dosing for the DIY remineralizer and got the spoon sizes and dosing instructions all written down for future Hufsa 
I bumped the final GH up from 6 to 7, I want to see if this makes the shrimp colony a bit more robust, especially with regard to water changes.
My brain didnt make any of the agonized creaking cogwheel noises it has been making lately, so I diagnose myself free of virus-induced smooth-brain. Now im back to normal stupid! 😃

I think I will be able to tackle micros tomorrow without setting myself on fire or killing everything I love. Using IFC calculator instead of rotala butterfly will leave a lot less room for errors as well. I just need to pick up some suitable storage bottles for the trace dilutions.
I dont want to have nickel solution sitting around in a soda bottle in the fridge, it might look too much like some kind of magical blue soda and my husband will definitely drink it and then die.
I will have to train a whole new one and thats just a lot of hassle


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Gotta fix whatever this chlorosis thing is. Whats bugging me is that the sheer amount of iron that is currently being added should be more than sufficient. Its being added daily so theoretically I should be able to use whatever chelate I want. To just keep blindly adding more of the same when its obviously not working quite right seems like a mistake somehow. I should google how manganese deficiency presents


I was in the same situation. was adding 1ppm plus of my edta micro mix, still had horrible Fe deficiency. swapped to one of happis recipe, 0.1ppm Fe dtpa per week and now plants are looking much much better. still have some issues, but not Fe deficiency! manganese deficiency presents it's self the same as Fe deficiency. Happi usually recommend Fe:Mn of 2:1. If you are using a premade mix for aquarium then you probably have too little Mn in relation to Fe.


Hufsa said:


> I dont want to have nickel solution sitting around in a soda bottle in the fridge,


you can add some preservatives, ascorbic acid and pottasium sorbate. then you can store at room temp in a dark place. I would occasionally check to make sure there is no precipitation, and also draw lines on the edge of the bottle so that you know the stock solution isn't evaporating.


Hufsa said:


> it might look too much like some kind of magical blue soda


wait untill you see what the copper solution looks like!


Hufsa said:


> I think I will be able to tackle micros tomorrow without setting myself on fire or killing everything I love. Using IFC calculator


I would also recommend double checking *ALL *numbers you get from the calculator. not only will it prevent some unknown mistakes, it will also help you practice the calculations for maths. not trying to doubt the calculator. but ofcourse it is not perfect.
anyway, I am trying a new mix based on tropica numbers.
hopefully it works well.


----------



## papa_c

Hey @Hufsa , loved the pictures but I have one question. How do you keep the wood that clean, do you regularly brush it?


----------



## Hufsa

Ive hit a little bit of a snag, I was mixing up trace solutions last night, and all went well except Boric Acid, which seems to take some time to dissolve. I thought leaving it over night would fix it but theres still some undissolved salt in the bottle this morning. Ive sat it in a hot bath right now to see if slightly higher temperature will make it happier. Does anyone know if this salt is particularly slow to dissolve, or have experiences with it? @dw1305 @Wookii or anyone else?

Details: I am attempting to dissolve 7,76 grams of Boric Acid into 500ml of demineralised water. This should be well within the solubility of Boric Acid.




I added the standard dose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate before adding the trace salt.

I tried checking if the preservatives could have maxed out the "available space" in the water, but can only see solubility for potassium sorbate at 100 degrees, which is a fair bit warmer than my kitchen.
Potassium sorbate: "Solubility in water 58.5 g/100 mL (100 °C)"
Also ascorbic acid only says "Solubility in water 330 g/L" with no mention of temperature, so I dont really know what to make of that.

Any ideas?


----------



## Hufsa

Might have got it now. So ten minutes of patience would have worked instead of pinging everyone 😅 Sorry, my bad
Hot water bath seems to have done the trick, I guess maybe with the preservatives it was hovering right around max solubility, and our kitchen is not entirely room temperature, closer to 18 degrees if I had to guess


----------



## Hufsa

Alright, so new fully DIY micro mix is set up and running, tank will get the first dose tomorrow morning with lights on (unless divine intervention)




Proud member of the "Forbidden Soda Club"

I decided to clone Tropica's trace ratio but just bumped it slightly up from recommended dosing, so instead of 0.08 Fe the entire thing is scaled up to 0.1 Fe. Tropica doesnt contain Ni (as far as I know?) so I pulled a little bit of an average from the various ratios I had in my notes and went for 0.0002 ppm.

Micro mix weekly (roughly Tropica x 1.2)
Fe 0.1 ppm (Fe 11% DTPA)
Mn 0.056 ppm (Mn 13% EDTA)
Zn 0.003 ppm (Zn 14% EDTA)
B 0.006 ppm (H3BO3)
Cu 0.0087 ppm (Cu 14% EDTA)
Mo 0.0029 ppm ((NH4)6Mo7O24.4(H2O))
Ni 0.0002 ppm (NiSO4.6(H2O))


@plantnoobdude and anyone else who might feel called, what color did your Mo solution turn out? Also did you use Ammonium molybdate as well? What about preservatives, did you add any? My Mo solution turned an interesting fresh lime green color when I first added it to the water with vit-c and p.sorbate, but then over night it turned the interesting dark jeans blue as pictured above. I am thinking it has reacted to the vit-c or the acidity somehow but hopefully not in a harmful way.

Performing a water change after lights off today, thinking of starting to front load parts of the weekly macros to keep things at a steady level. Will need to adjust autodoser amount to suit. Plan is to give the new micro mix around two weeks to show any changes, and then after that start gradually weaning the tank over to partly Urea for N. I didnt want to do everything quite at once.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Fe 0.1 ppm (Fe 11% DTPA)
> Mn 0.056 ppm (Mn 13% EDTA)
> Zn 0.003 ppm (Zn 14% EDTA)
> B 0.006 ppm (H3BO3)
> Cu 0.0087 ppm (Cu 14% EDTA)
> Mo 0.0029 ppm ((NH4)6Mo7O24.4(H2O))
> Ni 0.0002 ppm (NiSO4.6(H2O))


this should work well for you.


Hufsa said:


> Ammonium molybdate as well?


yep, mine was is a pale yellow colour almost completely clear... odd.
nice fancy bottles! should make the plants grow atleast 10% better. LOL


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> this should work well for you.


Fingers crossed! Im hopeful it will help with the chlorosis, I might need to tweak the overall dose but hopeful 



plantnoobdude said:


> yep, mine was is a pale yellow colour almost completely clear... odd.


Pale yellow could be a very dilute super-lime-green color perhaps?

Did you use vitamin c or potassium sorbate in your solution?




plantnoobdude said:


> nice fancy bottles! should make the plants grow atleast 10% better. LOL


Yess


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Fingers crossed! Im hopeful it will help with the chlorosis, I might need to tweak the overall dose but hopeful
> 
> 
> Pale yellow could be a very dilute super-lime-green color perhaps?
> 
> Did you use vitamin c or potassium sorbate in your solution?
> 
> 
> 
> Yess


vitamin c is ascorbic acid correct? any way yes, I do use the recommended amounts in my stock solution.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Pale yellow could be a very dilute super-lime-green color perhaps?


hmmn I need to dig the bottles out lol let me double check.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hmn, I found something interesting. Is it possible you got sodium molybdate instead? where did you buy your salts and what brand?


			Science made alive: Chemistry/Experiments
		

this shows that the colour can change due to various factors, certainly in line with your experience.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Does anyone know if this salt is particularly slow to dissolve, or have experiences with it? @dw1305 @Wookii or anyone else?



Never used it @Hufsa, I not mixed my own micros so far, so I'm afraid I can't help you down that particular rabbit hole . . .







I have read on this forum that Ascorbic Acid can react with some micros, or if used in excess - I don't know which or in which way - @X3NiTH is you man for that I think.


----------



## Hufsa

😭





💸😵🌿🥇


----------



## Hufsa

Just a few additional notes for the record

Decreased macros a bit the same day I set up the new micro mix. I think EI amounts of phosphate might not play nice with lean levels of micro, so took it from 30:3:30 to 20:2:20. Will probably still need some additional tweaking to find a good spot for my tank. I took top-down photos of all the plants the day before new micro mix was dosed, and will retake photos at least every weekend or so, hope to see some improvement of the paleness in new leaves in 1-2 weeks time.






The picture is showing some of the Hydrocotyle tripartita that grows in a basket at the waters surface. This basket sits directly below one of the fluval lights, and it is here that I see the highest degree of paleness, more than any other plant in the rest of the tank or the same species further from the light. The new shoots that grow at this location are starting to go almost white. Unless I am entirely mistaken I think this shows in a very real way that more light does indeed drive the plant harder, so more light does make deficiencies worse.
I just thought this was a neat little thing and I wanted to share it with you guys.

The plants growing in this little basket also do the most pearling, and I see the pearling drop off as the distance to the light increases. Isnt it neat


----------



## MichaelJ

Wookii said:


> have read on this forum that Ascorbic Acid can react with some micros, or if used in excess - I don't know which or in which way - @X3NiTH is you man for that I think.


Yes there is probably a reasonable limit to how much you may want to add - you just need enough to knock down the pH to prevent precipitation,  For my 500 ml trace mix I use 300 mg of Ascorbic Acid and 300 mg of Potassium sorbate (preservative).  I believe this was recommended to me by @X3NiTH  back in the day. I never had any issues that I am aware of.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Hufsa

MichaelJ said:


> For my 500 ml trace mix I use 300 mg of Ascorbic Acid and 300 mg of Potassium sorbate (preservative).


Ah I think I add a little bit more than this.. I think I got my original dosing instructions of these from Aquaplantscare.uk actually 🤔
Its 0,5 gram of Ascorbic acid and 0,2 gram of Potassium sorbate per 500 ml.
Maybe I should reconsider it if more reliable sources state otherwise?
Hmm no hang on I just checked IFC and it also uses this amount so should be ok.

I think it might just be down to ascorbic acid not always playing nice with things.
For instance my macro mix always turns slightly yellow over time, as I understand it ascorbic acid oxidises (or something) slightly.

Maybe it would be worthwhile to look into another means of acidifying my fert solutions


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Isnt it neat








 . . . more importantly though, what is that slimy red blob in the top right of the photo?


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I think it might just be down to ascorbic acid not always playing nice with things.


yep probably. I've heard of issues with copper precipitating ascorbic acid, I've seen vinegar proposed as a substitute. never used it though.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> . . . more importantly though, what is that slimy red blob in the top right of the photo?



Oh you werent supposed to see that, im afraid I will have to kill you now that you know.. it is actually a top secret mossy project.. thing..

...


No just kidding 😁
Its a piece of takeout container (the styrofoam-y kind) wrapped with some DOOA Terra Tape.

On top of it I have placed a few sprigs of emersed Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' and one entirely unimpressed sprig of Pantanal. This was to act as a sort of Noah's ark in case my ineptitude totally obliterated the specimens that I have growing in the water. Luckily it doesnt seem like those are going to die, they're just unhappy and stunted as expected, so I might be able to discontinue the ark soon. Probably for the best, as the ark didnt work as well as I had hoped 😅
My Fluval lights rest on two beams going across the width of the tank, and these beams sit super close to the waters surface. This ensures that I have TERRIBLE light spread on my tank even with two lights, and it is annoying me greatly  I have experimented with placing the lights on top of the hood instead, but I run into issues because then the lid doesnt fit and evaporation goes crazy and all manner of problems.


----------



## MichaelJ

Hufsa said:


> Ah I think I add a little bit more than this.. I think I got my original dosing instructions of these from Aquaplantscare.uk actually 🤔
> Its 0,5 gram of Ascorbic acid and 0,2 gram of Potassium sorbate per 500 ml.
> Maybe I should reconsider it if more reliable sources state otherwise?
> Hmm no hang on I just checked IFC and it also uses this amount so should be ok.
> 
> I think it might just be down to ascorbic acid not always playing nice with things.
> For instance my macro mix always turns slightly yellow over time, as I understand it ascorbic acid oxidises (or something) slightly.
> 
> Maybe it would be worthwhile to look into another means of acidifying my fert solutions


Hi @Hufsa , how fast do you go through a bottle?  If the bottle only last for 2-3 months and you store it in a dark place around room temp. it should be fine.


plantnoobdude said:


> yep probably. I've heard of issues with copper precipitating ascorbic acid, I've seen vinegar proposed as a substitute. never used it though.


Yep, I've also used white vinegar in the past. 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Hufsa

MichaelJ said:


> how fast do you go through a bottle?  If the bottle only last for 2-3 months and you store it in a dark place around room temp. it should be fine.


Ah I like to make up my ferts to last 4-5 months, I find it to be too much work otherwise 
I havent had any precipitation or mold issues so far, so it seems I have been able to get away with it.
I actually want to try stretching it out even further eventually, I think I just have to take more care not to contaminate the containers the longer I want it to last.


----------



## Hufsa

papa_c said:


> Hey @Hufsa , loved the pictures but I have one question. How do you keep the wood that clean, do you regularly brush it?


I keep forgetting to get back to you with this post, sorry 😅
My wood is not really that clean, I think maybe I got lucky and cropped out most of the surrounding algae. I dont scrub or brush, but have taken wood pieces out to treat with glutaraldehyde for BBA a couple of times over the years


----------



## Hufsa

🚨 Picture warning 🚨




FTS. Doesnt look like much, especially with the water marks on the glass and all the bubbles in the water column, but the plant mass is gradually increasing, so I am happy about that.





New micro ratio and dose has not worked so far  Plants are just as pale as they have been. I know I said I would give this dose two weeks to work, but im not even seeing a hint of improvement, and I am concerned my plants will eventually go from chlorotic to necrotic if things get severe enough. So I am going to double it as of today, from 0,1 to 0,2 and let that run all of the coming week.
A completely unrelated note, look how pretty Crypt spiralis red is. Oh my god. I cant wait for it to turn more red rather than pink, but damn its looking so nice already. Im definitely not regretting getting this plant.
I think my Tonina is being a real trooper as well, despite being paler than a vampire on the beach they are gaining in size and just doing their very best.




Both posh Ludwigias are also very chlorotic. Isnt it amazing that this is the same species, just two different variants, and they are so different in difficulty. The Cuba is looking like a monster next to the stunted Pantanal. The Pantanal is holding on for dear life, which I am very grateful. Just hold on little plant until I can figure you out. Then we shall be best of friends 😃




You know you've got a BBA problem when you have BBA on Hygrophila polysperma  It got a real good hacking back a few days ago, its just growing so vigorously compared to its neighbors.
This plant is not among those showing the worst paleness, I think it might be really good at uptake so its beating all the other plants to whatever it is that is lacking. 
The Ludwigia sp. Marilia is missing a few top shoots, I placed a package of other plant trimmings for sale locally last weekend, and the bids on the trimmings went so high that I felt the winner needed to get a few bonus items as well, so I pinched a few Marilia and some mosses to sweeten the deal.




Not much new to report in this area other than the paleness starting to show up in P. helferi as well.
Both Blyxa and helferi got a trim last weekend, other than the paleness the helferi seems extremely happy with the CO2 addition, and it was putting out sideshoots like it was going out of fashion. 
The main stems are massive and the leaves are very solid. 
Myriophyllum sp. Guyana seems like a very thankful little plant, its just steadily growing, not making a fuss about anything. A good little plant.




Trimmed down Blyxa and some mosses got relocated. To the left is the new pebble of Pearl Moss (Plagiomnium cf. affine). This moss has not been growing well, it had relatively large leaves in the cup it came in, but the shoots grown in my tank are small knobbly little things that are growing straight up towards the surface. If this was a moss I had picked from nature I would have said it didnt look like it wants to be under water. Since my current collectoritis infection is always having me low on space however, both this moss and mini christmas needed a trim. The mini christmas has grown beautifully and transformed from stringy emersed growth to beautiful little fronds. Its on the pebble in the center of the image. I replanted it sparsely, I believe christmas moss attaches to hardscape, and I feel the moss attaches better if it is not laid on too thickly. So it looks sad right now but it should grow out super lushly.
Just in case the newly planted moss pebbles fail to thrive, I have placed a backup of both species in the windowsill. The one I am most concerned about is the Pearl Moss though.




Rotalas also same paleness as before. Veeeery slowly increasing in size. I think the amount of light they get in this location could be higher for their liking. I know my buce is covered in BBA right now but look at the magnificent blue shine on the Brownie Blue variant 🤤 So pretty!




Im also really loving Cryptocoryne "Purpurea". Its so easy to grow and the pattern is striking but still somewhat subtle. This crypt is like "Is this tap water? SWEET, I LOVE TAP WATER!". Totally uncomplicated plant. The leaves are gaining massively in size for each one it puts out.




Various mosses, H. tripartita standard variety bottom center and Mini to the right. I think its fair to say Mini is about 1/2 to 1/3 the size of standard. 
I am wanting to grow both of them to maximum potential, take a good comparison picture and then I will only keep the Mini.




The difficult crypts are slowly making new leaves, and the old leaves get covered in BBA just as fast as they can make them. Sorry lil plants, im working on it!




The Ark project has been partially taken down, the takeout-raft now houses only standard tripartita and a Ceratopteris sp.






Same old for paleness here as well.




I think you can sort of see what I was talking about with the light spread, the light is so close to the water that it does not illuminate the sides of the waters surface. Not ideal when im trying to grow plants up here.




Emersed Fissidens mosses in the windowsill are growing well, although I think they could be a deeper green. Might be affected by the same issue the tank has. 
They get sprayed with tank water whenever I can remember to do it. The Pepsi (TM) terrariums keep the humidity in very well. (Not sponsored by Pepsi Corporation, although I could be, give me a call guys 😘📞💵)






The Ammannia Golden and Pantanal were transferred from the Ark to their own setup. Hope the slightly low temperature in the kitchen and natural window light will be ok for them.




These Rotala sprigs were growing up on the ark, much closer to the light than their brothers in the main colony. Look how much more developed they are. Im not sure if this is just simply because they have grown faster, or if the light levels in my tank are a bit suboptimal for light demanding plants. I would have liked to increase it a bit to see, but with the algae issues and paleness issue being as it is, stepping on the "gas pedal" further would probably be a bad idea. Need to get that sorted before I can play with light intensity. Besides, the main colony of Rotala is slowly growing themselves closer to the light anyway, so it will gradually get better for them as long as they keep growing.




You may have noticed my sand is a bit different. I have sprinkled in an assortment of larger grains, to see how I feel about it. So far I am not entirely sure if I like it or dislike it.








Some of the mosses from the mossy project. They are covered in algae but surviving. A while ago I threw away some of the samples that only grew stringy stuff straight up. Not interested in keeping 9 different species of super undecorative mosses. But these three remain, plus the fontinalis, fissidens and riccardia. The moss in the last picture of these three intrigues me. Its totally covered in thread algae but the moss itself is interesting, because it grows in a weeping fashion. If I can get it clean of thread algae and growing well I think it could make a decorative little moss.


Oh before I forget, I ended up cancelling my order of the Hanna meter. @KirstyF was really kind and gave me a really great deal on her previous Hanna PH meter 😊 Saved me a ton of money and I cant wait for it to arrive! Thanks again dear 😍


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> This plant is not among those showing the worst paleness, I think it might be really good at uptake so its beating all the other plants to whatever it is that is lacking.
> The Ludwigia sp. Marilia is missing a few top shoots, I placed a package of other plant trimmings for sale locally last weekend, and the bids on the trimmings went so high that I felt the winner needed to get a few bonus items as well, so I pinched a few Marilia and some mosses to sweeten the deal.


I think this has to do with the conditions of where the plant was from. if a plant grows in the wild in very softwater with very little Ca it'll probabaly have ways to stop absorbing too much Fe. In my tank, an example of this would be tonina, such a plant probably doesn't 'gather' Fe very well, whichis why it shows horrible Fe deficiency for me when something is wrong.  if plants are used to very hard water, then they should be very good at sequestering iron.

anyways, very nice pictures.


Hufsa said:


>


those buce look gorgeousssss
crypt purpurea looks stunning aswell, striolata just looks crazy.
love the tank, it looks really good. I wanna get some pantanal aswell.


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> I think this has to do with the conditions of where the plant was from. if a plant grows in the wild in very softwater with very little Ca it'll probabaly have ways to stop absorbing too much Fe. In my tank, an example of this would be tonina, such a plant probably doesn't 'gather' Fe very well, whichis why it shows horrible Fe deficiency for me when something is wrong.  if plants are used to very hard water, then they should be very good at sequestering iron.


Thats a really good point. Some plants are adapted to live in conditions where there are "tons of Fe compared to little of everything else". It makes sense then that the plant "runs with the handbrake on" when it comes to Fe uptake, otherwise it would uptake toxic levels of Fe. Makes sense that Tonina coming from soft waters (more available Fe due to low PH ++) would be one of those.
I dont know where Hygrophila polysperma grows but I would put money on it being a lot less specialized.
I can definitely subscribe to this idea

Thanks @plantnoobdude 👍


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


plantnoobdude said:


> I think this has to do with the conditions of where the plant was from. if a plant grows in the wild in very softwater with very little Ca it'll probabaly have ways to stop absorbing too much Fe. In my tank, an example of this would be tonina, such a plant probably doesn't 'gather' Fe very well, whichis why it shows horrible Fe deficiency for me when something is wrong. if plants are used to very hard water, then they should be very good at sequestering iron.


I'm sure you are right. Iron (Fe) is a two edged sword, too little you get chlorosis and <"too much is toxic">. Plants from <"reducing acid conditions"> have to deal with toxicity, plants from <"alkaline ones, shortage">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## X3NiTH

Hufsa said:


> My Mo solution turned an interesting fresh lime green color when I first added it to the water with vit-c and p.sorbate, but then over night it turned the interesting dark jeans blue as pictured above. I am thinking it has reacted to the vit-c or the acidity somehow but hopefully not in a harmful way



You don’t need to acidify the single salt concentrate mixes (Cu, Ni and Mo). You only need to add the Ascorbic acid and preservative to the main concoction water before adding the larger volumes dry salts and any concentrates.


----------



## Hufsa

X3NiTH said:


> You don’t need to acidify the single salt concentrate mixes


Oh, how come? I was worried they would go bad while being stored for a long time


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Oh, how come? I was worried they would go bad while being stored for a long time


same  here!


----------



## Garuf

Now, I’m a soil user so take this with a pinch of salt but I generally find that plants when going through adaptation tend to do it at the expense of overall robustness. Then about a month or so later you’ll look at the tank and they have either runted out or they turn a corner and things are tickety boo, the trick seems to be not panicking and fiddling with everything and just dutifully plodding on futzing around the edges with co2 and only the dosing if you get real issues in otherwise hardy plants.


----------



## Hufsa

Soil and sand is not really comparable @Garuf , there is nothing for them in the substrate and they're pretty damn chlorotic at the moment. I dont think its fair to describe me adjusting the ferts at this point as panicking


----------



## X3NiTH

Hufsa said:


> Oh, how come? I was worried they would go bad while being stored for a long time



Nothing to react with other than itself providing the carrier water has a very low to zero TDS such as RO/DI. Mine has remained unchanged for years, as good as the day I mixed it.


----------



## plantnoobdude

X3NiTH said:


> Nothing to react with other than itself providing the carrier water has a very low to zero TDS such as RO/DI. Mine has remained unchanged for years, as good as the day I mixed it.


welp for the next batch of stock solutions Ill do it that way. maybe in 200years there are no reprecussions for adding the preservatives, right?


----------



## X3NiTH

Other than your Molybdenum looks a bit of a funny colour, it should be clear. My Sodium Molybdate is clear.


----------



## Happi

@Hufsa​is there anything siting at the bottom of the solution? it will look like brown/rusty color.


----------



## Hufsa

@Happi its entirely clear, just a funky color


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> just a funky color


Does it have iron (Fe++) in it? <"Reduced molybdate compounds"> are blue in colour (<"Molybdenum Blue">) . It is the reaction you use in one method of <"phosphate testing">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

It shouldn't, its ammonium molybdate, but purchased from eBay so there is a potential flaw there i suppose?
The funky color has me pretty confused so it would be great to figure it out.
I just hope its still plant available in the micro mix...
I could knock up another batch without preservatives and see if it stays yellow-lime


----------



## Hufsa

The impurities listed here would surely have a lot of zeroes in front of them if the amount of ammonium molybdate I used was 1.2g in 500ml?
Would a reaction with impurities cause this amount of blue color?


----------



## John q

Enjoy the ride mate 😀


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Enjoy the ride mate 😀


What the 😂
I dont even know what this means


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> What the 😂
> I dont even know what this means


as long as you're adding *SOME *you're probably fine, especially with tap! is what i think john is trying to say lol.


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> as long as you're adding *SOME *you're probably fine, especially with tap!


Annoyingly the only trace element my water report does NOT measure, but knowing my tap water it doesnt contain much of anything 😅


plantnoobdude said:


> is what i think john is trying to say lol.


Is he? 😵


----------



## John q

Haha probably a bit unfair... 

First reference is referring to the unknown parameters you'll undoubtedly end up chasing trying to track down the holy grail. 

Second reference is the film "The sixth sense"... "icy dead people"

All good mate, just having a bit of fun 😀


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> First reference is referring to the unknown parameters you'll undoubtedly end up chasing trying to track down the holy grail.


I see myself more of a "least shitty option" kind of person 😁👍



John q said:


> Second reference is the film "The sixth sense"... "icy dead people"


Still dont get it  I give up 


Must I remind people that "unnecessarily complicated" is practically my middle name?


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> Still dont get it  I give up


----------



## Hufsa

But Joooooohn what does it have to do with Mo and lean dosing 
Its gonna keep me up all night trying to figure it out


----------



## Hufsa

A mid week photo update. There was some concern wether or not the plants paleness could be caused by insufficient Magnesium, so yesterday I threw in a good spoon (~2.6ppm) and gave it until today to see if there were any results. Magnesium is a mobile nutrient (deficiency would affect old growth first) and from what I understand deficient plants should show a rapid greening when supplied with more Mg. It doesnt appear so, but its good to have ruled it out 





The poor Toninas are almost white now, sigh. I hope I can get this sorted before the plant taps out entirely. 
The biggest stem looks like it MAYBE has a tiny bit greener growth in the center, everyone cross their fingers that 0.2 Fe is working, and I hope to see more green by the weekend. 
I am also a little bit concerned because right now the plants are not in a good state to experiment on. Having ratty bottom stems is not dangerous because you always have fresh new growth at the top, but when the actively growing part of the plant is struggling like this, I feel like the risk of losing the plant entirely is much greater. There is no room in the budget right now to rebuy any species, so I want to keep any experimenting in the survivable range. If the Hydrocotyle (which is very fast growing but also pale) is not showing better green by the weekend then I am going up to 0.3 Fe and postponing all other things. I can always go down again when plants are in better health. So right now my main goal is to not lose any species of plants and get the chlorosis sorted.





To me the Ludwigia Cuba shows the new growth being affected very clearly, I cant see how this paleness could be a mobile nutrient when the gradient is like this in the plant.




I moved a few stems of two kinds of Rotala and a bit of Pantanal up into a cup, this cup gets much more light, so I just want to see what happens to these stems. 
I was inspired by @Hanuman 's use of cups for light-loving plants.






I also got some invitro Heteranthera zosterifolia. More plants is never the wrong choice  I might replace the Hygrophila polysperma with this one eventually, the stargrass is a bit smaller growing.
I should make sure to keep a few stems of polysperma though, I can just stuff them in some forgotten corner. I promised myself not to get rid of species entirely, but then I threw out Limnophila sessiliflora a while back and am a bit annoyed at myself for doing so 😅 Could have kept just one stem or something.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> To me the Ludwigia Cuba shows the new growth being affected very clearly, I cant see how this paleness could be a mobile nutrient when the gradient is like this in the plant.





Hufsa said:


> The poor Toninas are almost white now, sigh. I hope I can get this sorted before the plant taps out entirely.
> The biggest stem looks like it MAYBE has a tiny bit greener growth in the center, everyone cross their fingers that 0.2 Fe is working, and I hope to see more green by the weekend.





Hufsa said:


> is not showing better green by the weekend then I am going up to 0.3 Fe and postponing all other things. I can always go down again when plants are in better health


It has to be iron (Fe) and /or possibly manganese (Mn). 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

I was taking a little trip down memory lane looking at earlier pictures in my journal. I was looking for a good picture of new growth on java fern that displays the translucent tips they often have.
As I was scrolling through I realized that all the pictures I have show slightly pale new growth. I couldnt find a single picture where it wasnt like this. Normally I probably wouldnt have noticed this, but since ive been struggling with chlorotic growth lately I have been more aware of things, and have been looking to backtrack through the journal to find a period of time where I had good growth, and then see what I was dosing then.

Can someone tell me if java ferns are supposed to be light at the tips on new growth? Not the translucent bit but the part below that.
I feel like I am losing my mind here  Either they are supposed to be this way, or I have had a chlorosis issue going on for years, its just not been very dramatic because I was running low tech.

Does anyone have pictures of new growth on theirs?


----------



## John q

Back in January I became convinced these lighter tips we caused by some nutrient deficiency, now I'm not so sure my theory was correct and think the likes of needle leaf tend to initially grow like this. 

For the last 3 weeks I've been adding extra Fe, Mg and Mn and the newer needle leaf tips still look like yours. 

Not the best pics but something to compare.


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Not the best pics but something to compare.


Blurry but perfect, thanks!

Ive just spent the past hour squinting at a ton of pictures of java fern from all over the internet and it seems normal.
I think ive been sipping too much tinfoil-hat-juice, the chlorotic plants are just making me a bit easily spooked


----------



## Hufsa

Now we're _starting_ to get somewhere!

3 days of growth between pics. Tripartita is looking about 2/3 of the way there for greenness I'd estimate.











Cuba has slightly less improvement but some, you can see the newest growth has a yellower hue.






Tonina not great, but this plant doesnt seem to grow as fast as tripartita (which is just a total weed).

Since 0.2 Fe has helped but isnt entirely there im going up to 0.3 and I think there will be good improvement in the plants given some more time.
I suspect the Tonina will always have a slightly higher need for Fe than the others, so im using that as a guideline.
With more plantmass I suspect I will have to go up to 0.4 eventually. I have a few spathiphyllum offshoots that I am planning to add to grow out emersed from the back of the tank, but I am not going to add them until I see that my submersed plants are getting what they need. Emersed plants will just drive up demand for nutrients even further.


----------



## Hufsa

I see the second photo of tripartita in my previous post has a slightly yellower cast than the first, which skews the comparison slightly.
My phone does this on its own, I think it gets confused by the LED lights.
I dont have the editing skills to tone down just the yellow hue of an image so it will just have to stay that way.

Today is water change day again, and at *this* exact moment I realised I forgot to put water in the barrel yesterday  Oops..
_ahem_ Tomorrow is water change day. (Its possible the barrel will finish heating up late today, I will have to see..)

I will try to get a new batch of macros made today with Happi's recipe. Not sure yet wether I want to postpone implementing it, the plants will probably like the Urea but will they like the lower total levels.
And do I dare do it now while some of the plants are still not looking so hot.. 🤔


----------



## KirstyF

Just doing a bit of a post catch up. Looks like you’ve been having some fun.
Do you ever think that having an aquarium is like having kids……although in this case, they might actually start behaving if only you can find them the right bag of sweets. 🙄😂


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> Today is water change day again, and at *this* exact moment I realised I forgot to put water in the barrel yesterday  Oops..
> _ahem_ Tomorrow is water change day. (Its possible the barrel will finish heating up late today, I will have to see..)


I got the water change finished after all yesterday, it _ahem_ got a bit late but it got done 😅
I got just about all of the water changed, I drained the tank down to just a couple centimeters in the front and the large Aquael canister was also emptied of water.
TDS in the tank was 222 before water change, fresh water remineralized had a TDS of 113, and TDS after water change settled at 123.
So a total of about 10ppm's worth of old tank water was left. I think that will be entirely good enough as a clean slate. I had decided against doing a double change to be kinder to my shrimp.

As if that wasnt enough, after the very late water change I did some even later fertilizer making. Normally making ferts so late at night would not be recommended, but when I am not a permanently exhausted pigeon I tend to be a bit of a night owl, so theres no guarantee making the fertilizer at a more appropriate time would have been any better. In fact the last time I mixed ferts in daytime there were tons of mistakes, so ill stick with what I do.

The new macro is made out to a target of 1 N (not NO3) per week, but Happi said to start at 1.75 N so I am multiplying my dose by that.
Normal dose is 30ml, 30ml x 1.75 = ~52 ml. Technically 52.5 but my doser doesnt do half mililiters.

This will give me a weekly;
NO3 7.75 (N 1.75)
PO4 0.7 (P 0.22)
K 1.17
(Micros are 0.3 Fe still)

This is not far off from Tropica Specialized at recommended dosing which is;
NO3 7.12 (N 1.6)
PO4 0.36 (P 0.12)
K 1.236

Most notable difference seemingly being the P.

Because of the "low" amount of K in Tropica, we are fairly sure that Tropica uses something else than KNO3 for its N.
The community's best guess is Urea and/or NH4NO3.
Since I wouldnt think twice about the safety of dosing Tropica Specialized at recommended levels, I think doing the same for Happi's starting dose will be safe.
If I was to start dosing Urea at EI levels I would probably want a gradual introduction.
But regardless, in an abundance of caution I set up my doser to spread the macro dose out over the photoperiod.
Previously I had the doser set up to dose micros at lights on and macros ~12 hours later.
I have recently read that plants uptake of nitrate and ammonium "increases during the day with a maximum at the end of the light period after which the uptake decreases."
It doesnt say anything about Urea, but I think Urea might not be naturally occurring at the levels that we fertilize plants with.
Anyway, I set the doser to do micros at lights on and then spread the macro out into four doses of 13ml to be dosed with an hour between them. Right now the doses are in the early part of the photoperiod, but I might change this a bit later. Since the plants grow pretty hard at the start of the photoperiod, I wanted the macros to hit the water in time for that demand.

I have taken fresh reference photos from above of the plants today just as light came on, because some of the plants have moved slightly and same locations makes for better comparison shots.
Will probably take a new set in three days time and again in a week.

I will monitor the fish and shrimp closely and of course also the plants. CO2 levels also.
Have plans to record TDS changes as well to get a little sneak peek at what is going on.

I feel like I was supposed to write something else as well but I have forgotten  Too-de-loo for now


----------



## plantnoobdude

I like this recipe, the kno3 negates the need for other K salts. and lowers unwanted tds. I might do that for my next batch! i wonder if kno3+nh4no3 will be too much no3 though...


----------



## Hufsa

Picture from monday and today/wednesday. Slight yellow hue difference in photos, but also maybe slight improvement.
No change in Tonina. Wont spam pictures for the rest of the plants until weekend since there is nothing dramatic to report. 
Plants seem perfectly happy so far and are still pearling like idiots.

@dw1305 can you confirm that the leaves are supposed to green up as long as they are expanding in size?
To clarify, I am wondering when the cut-off time is for when a leaf is no longer considered "new".
Iron and Manganese deficiency will show up in "new leaves". But what exactly is new? How long until the plant can no longer "improve" new leaves and they become "old"?
The reason I ask is because I am seeing that some of the new-ish leaves are gaining green color, even though the plant technically has another leaf that is even newer.
Is the improvement of greenness the pictures show in "new-ish" leaves in line with what we expect for iron/mn deficiency, or maybe not?


----------



## Hufsa

Belated sunday update, chlorosis issue still isnt fixed yet at 0.3 Fe DTPA (+ traces). Im tired of playing catch up with this issue, so I have set the doser to give 0.5 as of today, and if this fixes it I can then try lowering it to 0.4 once plants are recovered. Im getting hella suspicious about this whole thing, im either missing something or barking up entirely the wrong tree 🤨


























Hydrocotyle got a bit of a snip snip as it was crawling way out of its designated area.




Pantanal is doing ever so slightly better, the grouping at the back of the tank accidentally came out when I was removing some thread algae a while ago.
I had replanted the stems mostly in the front of the tank hoping to save them before they die entirely. The one in the pot closer to the light also seems better, this one is has the widest leaves of them all (the white part is the reflection of the water surface, the plant touches it when the filters are off).







After the pictures were taken some of the plants got a trim, the Blyxa is chlorotic too but still growing quite a lot, the bush was trimmed again and I replanted about 30%. The plant grouping was so dense I dont think much flow was getting to the area behind it.
Myriophyllum sp. Guyana got its first trim, this one doesnt appear to be particularly affected by the chlorosis issue and has been very steadily growing.
This plant branches out readily on its own and just about every shoot had 5 tops growing on it, it got topped and replanted because it too was a very thick wall stopping the flow going behind it. Next time I might try just cutting the tops and leaving the bottoms to regrow.
I had a few ponderings when I was replanting, they say healthy plantmass is good, but they also say trimming is good because you get better flow (delivery of CO2 and nutrients). In this case I was removing healthy plantmass to hopefully help the not so healthy plantmass. I was wondering if this is the right move or not. Im not sure there is any set answer for this.

A few more plants got a snip here and there but I dont need to write down this in every excruciating detail 

Some unrelated pictures taken earlier this week. Algae and pearling sums it up pretty well.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Belated sunday update, chlorosis issue still isnt fixed yet at 0.3 Fe DTPA (+ traces). Im tired of playing catch up with this issue, so I have set the doser to give 0.5 as of today, and if this fixes it I can then try lowering it to 0.4 once plants are recovered. Im getting hella suspicious about this whole thing, im either missing something or barking up entirely the wrong tree 🤨


I am still betting on Co3 causing the issue. not trying to doubt you hufsa but I would also try making up a new micro mix to makesure you haven't gotten any errors in the current batch. loving the red crypt! cute little fishies as well.


----------



## Hufsa

Few things I forgot to add, I think a part of the "lean dosing thing" is running higher light levels than what I am currently. I will ask in the thread for confirmation of this, but I am thinking of slowly (well relatively slowly in Hufsa terms) increasing my lights as soon as the chlorosis issue is improved.
I think some of my more light hungry plants would be very happy about an increase in intensity.
If I need some shadier areas I can always relocate the Bolbitis to the middle of the tank somewhere, and it should shade out a pretty large area.


If my plants arent growing fresh green new leaves by next weekend I am going to start looking elsewhere (outside of iron) for a solution.
Fingers crossed the fairly substantial increase from 0.3 to 0.5 does the job.
Theres just absolutely no way they need more than 0.5 ppm of DTPA weekly. In INERT substrate!
0.5 ppm weekly is full EI levels of traces  Why would they need this much? Doesnt add up.

Thoughts:
Beside redoing the micro mix and making really sure there hasnt been any mistake, my first thought is to take a closer look at the rest of the traces.
Manganese is pretty decent at 0.056 ppm Mn to 0.1 ppm Fe. @Happi has his trace mix at 0.067 ppm, could try increasing this and see.
But im not convinced 0.011 ppm difference could really cause this much of a ruckus.

Zinc is one I have been thinking about for a while. Tropica's levels are pretty low compared to several other mixes.
If we scale the mixes to 0.1 Fe, Tropica gives 0.0029 ppm Zn.
Compare this to some ratios from my notes;
0.02 ppm Zn (Epstein)
0.019 ppm Zn (Solufeed TEC)
0.014 ppm Zn (APF UK)
0.014 ppm Zn (Happi)
0.02 ppm Zn (PPS Pro v2.3)
0.022 ppm Zn (Yara Rexolin APN)
Some of them are greater by almost an order of magnitude.

Boron seems unlikely, associated with mostly structural stuff and not chlorophyll.
[Edit:] Seems like this one would be second in line to try, the expression between plant species appears to be quite variable. Tropica's dose is not the highest.

Copper unlikely, pretty high in Tropica ratios.
Molybdenum also unlikely, Tropica ratio has this higher than many other mixes.


I should also shoot off an email to the waterworks, see if they can give me any figures for phosphate levels in my tap water.
I have never tested it myself and I would rather not spend money to buy a test kit if a free email will do the trick.
For it to be a precipitation issue the phosphate levels would have to be pretty wild I think, so I dont think this is the problem.



plantnoobdude said:


> I am still betting on Co3 causing the issue.


When you say CO3 causing the issue, what exactly do you mean? Im not completely up to date on the KH aspect of things as I usually dont think much about it.
Your KH is 4 though, mine is 3. Unless they are made different somehow I dont understand how you can dose 0.08 Fe weekly and I am still having issues with 0.3.
Anyone, feel free to educate me on the matter 😅


----------



## Garuf

Wild card, but could you be below or very close to the minimum light threshold?


----------



## Hufsa

Garuf said:


> Wild card, but could you be below or very close to the minimum light threshold?


An interesting idea, but if you go back a few (or many im not sure) posts, you can see a picture of some hydrocotyle that grew only a few centimeters from the light. These leaves were actually the worst affected by chlorosis.


----------



## Happi

Hufsa said:


> If my plants aren't growing fresh green new leaves by next weekend I am going to start looking elsewhere for a solution.


you gonna have to be little patient and hang in there, we will eventually solve this, its not going to happen overnight. 



Hufsa said:


> Manganese is pretty decent at 0.056 ppm Mn to 0.1 ppm Fe. @Happi has his trace mix at 0.067 ppm, could try increasing this and see.





Hufsa said:


> 0.014 ppm Zn (Happi)



this is based on Tenso Coktail Clone, weather I use the Tropica clone or this one they both have good results as they both use Fe;Mn ratio around 2:1

I believe you use the custom made micro? you can post the details over here, so we can take a look.


----------



## Hufsa

Happi said:


> you gonna have to be little patient and hang in there, we will eventually solve this, its not going to happen overnight.


I know it takes a lil while to show improvement, but the turnover of new leaves from the H. tripartita is pretty rapid and I am kinda trying to save my Tonina from dying. Its hard for me to reacquire this plant.



Happi said:


> I believe you use the custom made micro? you can post the details over here, so we can take a look.


The details are already here, just a few pages back


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> When you say CO3 causing the issue, what exactly do you mean? Im not completely up to date on the KH aspect of things as I usually dont think much about it.
> Your KH is 4 though, mine is 3. Unless they are made different somehow I dont understand how you can dose 0.08 Fe weekly and I am still having issues with 0.3.
> Anyone, feel free to educate me on the matter 😅


co3 inhibits uptake of Fe, as I speculated in another comment because tonina comes from very softwater it also has mechanisms to protect its self from High Fe or trace toxicity. the double hit of Fe inhibition is probably what's causing the issue.  and no, my kh is not 4, it is 0!


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> and no, my kh is not 4, it is 0!








Let me know when you decide which one it is


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> View attachment 186445
> 
> Let me know when you decide which one it is


whattttt that was a huge oopsie on my part, my bad!


----------



## Happi

Hufsa said:


> I know it takes a lil while to show improvement, but the turnover of new leaves from the H. tripartita is pretty rapid and I am kinda trying to save my Tonina from dying. Its hard for me to reacquire this plant.
> 
> 
> The details are already here, just a few pages back


one of my biggest worry is when someone is making their own micros and make any kind of small error because we are talking about some numbers in ppb. I hope this is not the case here, am not saying you don't know what you are doing. can you post some recent pictures of your plants?


----------



## Hufsa

Happi said:


> one of my biggest worry is when someone is making their own micros and make any kind of small error because we are talking about some numbers in ppb. I hope this is not the case here, am not saying you don't know what you are doing. can you post some recent pictures of your plants?


Happi there are pictures in the post on the same page as your post 😅😅 You would only have had to scroll up a bit 

Micros were made with help of the IFC, so diluted solutions for all traces except Fe and Mn. All salt amounts were measured in grams and then diluted down.


----------



## Happi

Hufsa said:


> Happi there are pictures in the post on the same page as your post 😅😅 You would only have had to scroll up a bit


lol i forgot we were on your thread. now I must be drunk.


----------



## Happi

@plantnoobdude  had the exact same issues. currently you are dosing 0.5 Fe DTPA weekly ? 

something like this?


Fe0.5Mn0.28B0.03Cu0.04Mo0.01Zn0.01


----------



## Hufsa

Happi said:


> currently you are dosing 0.5 Fe DTPA weekly ?


Picture was after a week of 0.3 Fe DTPA. This week will be 0.5, too early to see results as I started today.

Edit: so;
Fe    0.3
Mn    0.17
B    0.02
Cu    0.03
Mo    0.01
Zn    0.01


----------



## Happi

Hufsa said:


> Picture was after a week of 0.3 Fe DTPA. This week will be 0.5, too early to see results as I started today.


have you thought about just trying 0.1 ppm Fe target weekly??  Iron deficiency with 0.5 ppm Fe weekly is just not possible at this point. do a big water change and see if you notice any changes before adding more Fe


----------



## Hufsa

Happi said:


> have you thought about just trying 0.1 ppm Fe target weekly??


This post was after a week at 0.1. Maybe it needed more time?



Happi said:


> Iron deficiency with 0.5 ppm Fe weekly is just not possible at this point.


I agree it doesnt add up at all


----------



## Hufsa

Just a recap for @Happi with pictures of tripartita grown a week at 0.1
My main question is if you think one week wasnt enough?
Can usually see changes in this plant in just 3 days.







Some other plants


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Happi said:


> one of my biggest worry is when someone is making their own micros and make any kind of small error because we are talking about some numbers in ppb.


I just wouldn't make up my own micro-nutrient mix, unless there was a very good reason. I agree with @Happi, it is really easy to get lost in the <"powers of ten">. <"Microelement mixes"> developed for <"commercial hydroponic horticulture"> will work. The same for <"complete "all in one" mixes">, with the proviso that you need to look at the <"ammonium (NH4) content">.

I used to make up a micro-mix (for work) but as @X3NiTH pointed out <"I wasn't very good at it"> and also that it <"didn't make any significant difference to plant growth">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

A couple of days ago the Hanna PH pen arrived, thanks again for the great deal @KirstyF I really appreciate it 🥰

Today im doing a PH profile, and so far it looks like I will be able to shave down the pre-lights CO2 period by 2 hours.
Up until now I have had the CO2 come on 4 hours before lights are on full just to be sure, but now that I have a slightly better way of measuring the drop it looks like 2 hours will be sufficient  Thats good, correlates with what I have been feeling is a decently high injection rate.
Shorter time before lights on also means shorter time the water has CO2 injection without the significant oxygen production of the plants. This should be healthier for everyone, fish, microbes and plants.
I have up until now used a light intensity ramp up (and down) period of 30 minutes, but I am going to pull the light ramp up to a bit earlier to cover parts of the CO2 ramp up.
This way I hope the plants can gradually wake up and get going with photosynthesis and production of oxygen while the CO2 is also ramping up, without running into issues where demand exceeds CO2 availability. My goal is in other words to not have large periods of time where CO2 levels are high and oxygen levels are low.
I certainly dont think it is critical to do it this way, im just trying to tune my system to be as good as possible in a way that makes sense to me. YMMV

Im going to run this week at 0.5 Fe, possibly also next week. I will make up a new batch for this as I am almost running out. For those who suspect that I have messed up the micro mix, I would like to remind you that this chlorosis issue predates the custom micro mix by several months. So I had the same issue when I was using the trace blend from APF UK.
The custom micro calculations were all done by the IFC calculator and I followed the instructions meticulously. Hopefully it is not an error in the calculator.


----------



## Hufsa

I forgot to add, today I spotted a shrimp with two Scutariella parasites on its head 😡
The colony has been seemingly parasite free since they were released from the fry rings, but now its back 🤬
I would very much like to know the mechanics around how it can reappear so much later 😓


----------



## Hufsa

Results of todays PH profile:

07:00 - Skimmer off, CO2 on. (This used to be 06:00 but I didnt want to get up that early today )
07:20 - 6.7, first reading got a bit delayed
07:30 - 6.6
08:00 - 6.4
08:30 - 6.3
09:00 - 6.2
09:30 - 6.2 - Light ramp up
10:00 - 6.2 - Light full
10:30 - 6.2
11:00 - 6.2
11:30 - 6.2
12:00 - 6.2
12:30 - 6.2
13:00 - 6.1 *
13:30 - 6.2 *
14:00 - 6.1 *
14:30 - 6.1 *
15:00 - 6.1 *
15:30 - 6.2 *
16:00 - 6.1
16:30 - 6.1
17:00 - 6.1 - CO2 off
17:30 - 6.2
18:00 - 6.3 - Light ramp down
18:30 - 6.4 - Light off, skimmer on
19:00 - 6.5

22:30 - 6.9

*Meter was flickering a fair bit between 6.1 and 6.2 on the values marked, I think the value was very close between them. 
Meter has an accuracy of ±0.2 pH and resolution of 0.1 pH, so I think this is about as precise as I can expect.

Degassed tank water PH 7.2. Two hours to ramp up, total drop 1 to 1.1 degrees.
Not quite a perfect profile with less than 0.1 variance but it doesnt feel bad either.

Based on readings have made a few adjustments to the whole timeline, mostly for my own notes;
08:00 Skimmer off, CO2 on
08:30 Lights ramp up + Dose micro
10:00 Lights full
11:00 Dose1 macro
12:00 Dose2 macro
13:00 Dose3 macro
14:00 Dose4 macro
17:00 CO2 off
18:00 Lights ramp down
18:30 Lights off, skimmer on


----------



## Hufsa

These photos were taken five days ago and were supposed to be uploaded then, but better late than never right 😅
I just got back home from visiting family and missed todays photoperiod, so will snap some new pics of the plants tomorrow, they have grown a fair bit 

The drop in CO2 demand that @John q prophesied appeared, I was almost starting to think it wouldnt. Of course it happened the day right before I was going to leave. I turned the injection down slightly, trying for "not entirely enough" rather than "still too much". What I like though about running ~20 ppm CO2 is that instead of "panic" there was only "oh, the CO2 is a bit over target", and there were no fish gasping at the surface or even breathing rapidly. And the plants certainly didnt mind 😏




(JBL's 20ppm target liquid in use, so not standard solution)








Everybody say "EI micros!"
Cuba and the gang still pale as ghosts, only now some of them are also red because the light got turned up a bit.




I did a pretty drastic thinning of the thicket of Cuba a little while ago, hoping to get a few more stems to take off with better flow ++ around them. Seems to have worked.






Rotala rotundifolia "Orange Juice" is starting to color up, a combination of higher light intensity and also getting closer to the light source finally. Not really visible in this picture but I reckon we will see it tomorrow. Whitish green instead of fresh green on the tips of the java ferns, these guys arent happy either with whatever the issue is.




Hygrophila polysperma got a bit upset with me for snipping it all the way down to the substrate.



 


Blyxa turned red, probably from the light increase. One whole unstunted stem of pedicellata got moved out of the group for more flow.




Super Red is really enjoying the light. I think this was the main reason I had problems with this species before.






Pantanal sprigs in various locations are holding on to life.








I could swear sometimes it feels like the otos are deliberately trying to make eye-contact with me.
Is it mouthing AL-GAE.. WA-FER?


----------



## erwin123

This really looks like some sort of deficiency., with the new leaves looking yellower/more chlorotic than the older leaves? With all these valuable plants in your tank, would you consider temporarily trying an 'all-in-one' fert like TNC or APT for a while, to see if they improve? Cuba/Pantanals are fast growers so they should respond fast.


----------



## Hufsa

Not much to report, plants coloring up from the light but still pale at 0.5 Fe + traces.
This one stem of Orange Juice closest to the light has colored up a lot and is looking really lovely 🥰 
Note the white patches in Heteranthera zosterifolia, whatever the issue is it seems to present as these "random" white patches in some plants, you can see it also in the Hydrocotyle.











Cuba is getting really really wide, I replanted both these tops after the picture along with the Super Red. Will grab a FTS soon.





After the weekend Im going to try a different ratio of micros, hoping that the issue lies with either the amount of one of the other traces or competition between very high and quite low ones.
If that doesnt work then the next thing to try is a premade fertilizer to rule out some mixing issue as @erwin123 has suggested.


----------



## Hufsa

I think I mentioned a while back I got a few peace lily cuttings from my mother to try growing emersed in my tank later on. ..Or did I?
Cant be bothered to check, im mentioning it now anyway 
It was just supposed to be that and maybe a "parlour palm" thing, im not entirely sure what happened but I seem to have lost control of my body and now have the kitchen table full of various beautiful plants to try to use as really fancy duckweed. I dont know where I am going to put all these plants and I need to stop before things spiral completely out of control, if they havent already.

Its been a while since I last visited a garden center, probably a couple of years at least. I forgot how nice it is to just walk around in there, looking at the plants and smelling the fragrant air.
It was very unhelpful of them to have a sale on assorted mini plants, 3 for ...something. I wasnt really paying attention as I was already gleefully picking out plants.
By mini plants I of course mean normal plants that are 1/10th the size of regular plants but somehow 1/3rd the price. Funny how that works isnt it.
At some point I remembered that I have no idea what I am doing, and that I should probably check that they can grow hydroponically at all.
Fear not, UKAPS had the answer and some searching turned up this link of hydro-compatible plants. Thats a lot of shinies isnt it...

The plants I will need to figure out what to do with are the following:
Spathiphyllum 'Chopin'
Chamadorea elegans
Calathea 'Freddie' (I guess some plants come pre-named now, it didnt strike me as a Fred but what do I know)
Asplenium nidus 'Crispy Wave'
Anthurium with purple flower
Random mystery fern (The garden center staff had no idea what this was, and after bothering 3 separate employees about the ID of said fern I was about to commit seppuku from social embarrassment and decided it would be better to hear what @dw1305 thinks it is instead of continuing to harass the poor staff)




The Anthurium has a cooler purple tone in real life, but for the life of me I could not get the camera to register it right




The unfortunate plants that ended up in my possession. Did I mention that I dont have a green thumb? I think it may actually be black and necrotic.. 
Im trying to covert them to growing hydroponically, while I try to figure out how im gonna keep them long term, if they even make it that far 😅
I dont want to add anything emersed to the tank right now while the chlorosis issue is unsolved.
And I am worried that many big emersed plants will make growing my submersed plants in good form difficult. Might start a thread about it.




FTS warts and all all warts.
Moved a few plants around, the right hand side looks a little less tragic now, lush stargrass saves the day 😁




Ludwigia sp. Marilia got moved to a brighter spot, I could tell within a day that it really appreciated it, camera has washed all the color out (as usual ) but its turning a bright sunny yellow.
The propagation of Super Red is going well as you can also see. Pleased that I was able to rescue the few stems I had left.

Some gratuitous noodle pics for @shangman and @KirstyF 



Speaking of beady eyes, do you guys have any idea how hard it is to get focus exactly on a tiny beady eye with a phone camera that is well past replacement time 
Ill continue to pat myself on the back for not replacing my phones until they break, and while I do I get a convenient excuse for lack of photographic skill! 



This noodle has a unique little chin strap in his pattern, but only on that side.




This one kept getting photobombed by shrimp






Windowsill subjects doing ok. Pedicellata Golden has put out a lot of roots lately, the sprigs of Pantanal are not doing amazing. Thinking of transferring them to aquasoil.
Native fissidens mosses doing well. The color difference is interesting. I removed the native fissidens from the tank as I was really low on space and they were just not that decorative.




Drop checker color of today. Still 20ppm liquid. Not 20ppm green.
Not sure what I want any more. Fish seem very comfortable at this level and even when it was higher. So should I bother with decreasing? Will give it some more thought.


----------



## ScareCrow

I believe the fern in the picture not named in your post is Didymochlaena truncata.
That list is really useful, thanks for sharing. I think some of the plants listed can be grown hydroponically but depending on the type of system used. Aloes were the one that jumped out at me. They wouldn't do well sat in water but using a spray system would work perfectly.


----------



## Hufsa

ScareCrow said:


> I believe the fern in the picture not named in your post is Didymochlaena truncata.


Ahh, that looks to be the one! Complete with brown fronds, I thought maybe it just had a case of the blues 
Thank goodness for UKAPS. The garden center staff were not of the "personal interest in plants" kind, and after proudly declaring that it was probably a fern, and then later going back on it and declaring that it definitely wasnt a fern, but probably a maidenhair fern, I realized the odds were stacked against me and the little unlabeled sprig, and decided to cut my losses 😁



ScareCrow said:


> That list is really useful, thanks for sharing. I think some of the plants listed can be grown hydroponically but depending on the type of system used. Aloes were the one that jumped out at me. They wouldn't do well sat in water but using a spray system would work perfectly.


Yeah about the list I think youre right to say conditions apply. I know pretty much dang diddly squat about houseplants but I know a Peace Lily will tolerate very different conditions than say, a fern.

Thanks for the labeled image too, I realise I forgot to list the bottom left fern, it was bought as Nephrolepis cordifolia 'Duffii', do you think that is a correct ID?


After reading up on these plants a bit more this morning I think I need to move them further into the room from the window. The sunlight this time of year comes in very low and at the latter part of the day goes in through that window like a vengeful laserbeam. The window in question faces northwest. 
I see a lot of care details listing "half shade" & "indirect light". Im not a plantonomolologist or anything but I think that means angry lazor will not do.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> .......would be better to hear what @dw1305 thinks it is instead of continuing to harass the poor staff)


You should have continued harassing the garden centre staff, but I think @ScareCrow is correct with _Didymochlaena  truncatula. _I'm not sure about the other one, I don't think it is _Pellaea rotundifolia, _that has a thin dark stipe.

cheers Darrel


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> Some gratuitous noodle pics for @shangman and @KirstyF



Ahhhh…..thank you for the noodle fix. 😍

Re, the house plants, yeah, I think away from the window would be best….unless you especially like them crispy 😳……and remember these are not iddy biddy mosses and you can’t squeeze 35 of them in your tank……even with @shangman ‘s help!! 😂


----------



## Hufsa

I mentioned a bit over a week ago that I saw a shrimp with a few Scutariella parasites on it.
Shortly after I dosed the tank with a new medication, Sera Tremazol.
Before I have used Esha gdex and ndx (stupid confusing names in my opinion but thats beside the point). The Esha medications contain Praziquantel and Levamisole respectively.
Sera Tremazol is another Praziquantel medication, so I wasnt entirely sure if it would make a difference when I had already tried this active ingredient before without great results.
However, right after the first dose the parasites disappeared, and have not reappeared for over a week, much unlike the Esha treatments.
It would appear that Tremazol may be a more effective medication against Scutariella than gdex.
I did another treatment a bit over a week later, late this saturday, in hopes of really getting rid of this annoying problem once and for all.
The instructions for Tremazol state that one must perform a large waterchange 8 hours after treatment, but I forgot to fill the water barrel on saturday and thus did not get the regular sunday water change done. This morning (monday) I woke up to a tank with a cloudy tinge and a surface film. It appears the large water change shortly after treatment is truly needed and that they werent messing around when they wrote it. I had an important appointment to go to, but I managed to do the water change very quickly and turned on the skimmer to get rid of the surface film. I wasnt keen to run the CO2 with this film affecting gaseous exchange, so I left the CO2 off and therefore also the lights.

Now im back from the appointment and the film has been cleared up, although the water is still a bit cloudy.
I suppose the medication and/or the solvent used (Praziquantel is poorly soluble in water), causes a small bacterial bloom or something like that if left too long in the tank.
I decided to turn the CO2 and lights on now, because I think actively growing plants and more oxygen will make a big difference in getting over this small roadbump in tank stability.
I wasnt comfortable running the CO2 unsupervised with that surface film, but having cleared most of it and being home and able to monitor it makes a difference.

I will probably repeat the treatment next weekend, but this time I know, there is no delaying that waterchange


----------



## Hufsa

Day after and water is nice and super clear again, no signs of a surface film either 

Figured I should do a photo update of the plant growth, as this marks the end of trying 0.5 Fe + traces dosing to try to fix the chlorosis issue.
It definitely didnt work, and going higher than full EI seems like the wrong direction to go in to try to fix the issue.
On the menu for this week is nothing actually, @Happi suggested letting the tank run for one week with no micros.
Im not entirely sure what the purpose for it is, maybe to let the plants clear some of the stored traces they may have taken in, giving us more of a clean slate next week?
I dont think its going to cause death and devastation so why not.
After that I will start out pretty low, final amount still to be decided but my latest thinking was something like 0.06 Fe weekly just to see what will happen, but with a different ratio of the other traces that I think might be beneficial.
It would be swell if that works right out of the gate, but usually life isnt entirely that simple so I expect to have to tweak a little bit around on total dose and ratios until I find something that works for my specific water.
I still have no clear idea why I am having this issue and why not more people are having the same sort of troubles. Maybe that my tap water is fairly soft and pretty clear of anything has something to do with it. I remember the time I straight up melted my population of floating plants and almost killed my fish using a copper based snail medication, while the majority of the forum use this medication without any problems. That most members on the forum are UK based and the parameters of most UK tap water being quite different to mine is something I keep in mind. It might also have nothing to do with that, who knows.

Onto the more interesting part, pictures 
It really is true what they say, about plant growth with CO2. Even when plant growth is bad, its still pretty damn good as long as the plants have access to their fix of carbon.
So chlorosis or not, most of the plants are developing pretty nicely and I am enjoying taking pictures of them (even though they are only in focus 1/5 of the time ).








Rotala OJ is quickly becoming a favorite of mine, the color when it gets close to the light is lovely. This second pic is a replanted top. For some extra fun, ask me again in a year or two what I think about rotalas and their growth rates 




The rotalas in the little pot were evicted because they were doing too well. My two least sh*tty Pantanal stems are now living here. They are very small and stunt easily. A shoot of Golden has moved in to be their new friend.




Even more of the strange symptoms on the Stargrass. It almost makes me wonder if its not a iron issue but another trace. Patches and banding and showing up in patterns I wouldnt normally think of as iron deficiency/issue.




Ludwigia sp. Marilia looks best in a thick group, and its really loving the brighter spot. If anyone gets this plant, which I highly recommend as it is quite unique, definitely put it in your brightest spot.
Actually, now that I think of it, the leaf shedding has decreased a lot after I moved it here..




Big Cuba and sidekick is doing pretty well despite the chlorosis.




Super Red could probably have even better color, but man the light increase is really doing it for this plant, everything else seems to be secondary.




The rest of the Cuba is bulking up, cant wait to trim off the old growth on these, just need a bit more time.







Had a big cleanup of the Golden, from my limited experience 3 stems with good flow have much better odds than 30 puny miserable shoots in a tight group. Felt counterintuitive throwing away much of the plant I want more of, but quality growth is the goal now. If I get a few stems to thrive then I can propagate from there. The Ammannia crassicaulis next to it is doing almost equally as badly, which I find quite impressive. I was growing this plant in pretty lovely form at times in low tech, but so far have not been able to in high tech. Definitely had its ugly twisted periods in low tech too though. Its time in high tech so far hasnt been the most stable, so I cant really blame it. I am trying to recover from my acute collectoritis, and upon looking over the plants I have and the plants I definitely want, it seems I might be getting rid of A. crassicaulis in the long run. Theres just a lot of orange plants in the works. Should I keep one stem or not? They would be really easy to get again.. Let me know what you think.

Pogostemon helferi and M. Guyana is getting ruthlessly hacked back on a regular basis, mostly to keep their relative happiness from blocking off the plants behind them. Its really not ideal to have happy bushy plants in front of the unhappy plants.. This whole corner needs a bit of rearranging, none of it went entirely the way I had planned. You know what they say, no battleplan survives contact with the enemy real life. Actually just about none of the plan has worked out exactly the way I thought it would, but thats just how it goes. Almost all of these plants were new to me, I didnt know how they grow, whether they would do well or struggle, or what sort of trimming they like. So they way I see it, a little bit of getting-to-know is unavoidable.




Final shot of Tonina and Hydrocotyle grown under 0.5 Fe. The latter also got a really big hacking back so the growth was a little bit slowed, but still sufficient to see that its still pale.




Whenever I feel plants are too difficult I look into this wild little corner here where the crypts and little carpet plants hang out in merry wildness. Sure they have a bit of algae on some old leaves but all in all its pretty peaceful in this little corner, and the noodles like rummaging through the dense growth here. Towards the lower left, the crypt purchased as Queen Vandom has put out an interestingly marked new leaf, a pale silvery grey with green stripes.




FTS complete with reflection, watermarks, all that good stuff 😊 Im happy that the general amount of plantmass is increasing.


----------



## erwin123

I really enjoy viewing all these plant photos. definitely agree with making space for your plants to grow... once plantmass increases, you really have to be merciless about making sure the fast growers don't shade the other plants... Ammannia Golden  loves light 🌞🌞🌞


----------



## Hufsa

A week with no micros is almost up. Some of the plants have stalled somewhat under zero micros and have let me know they're not too happy, so Im going to let them have some micros again starting tomorrow. It still feels strange how fast the turnaround on a CO2 injected tank is. Theres just no way to tell that the plants are slightly unhappy in just one week in low tech. Its more of a "change one thing and lets see in two months time" kind of deal. The maintenance and supervision required is also matched, which is why both "speeds" are great in their own way. But specifically for messing around with stuff, the near instant results of high tech is very gratifying.




Pantanal has turned bright red at the top since last week, but not in a good way I suspect. Its buddy A. p. Golden has put out one whole set of leaves, can we get an applause going here for the slow grower 




Marilia looks about the same, the dominant stems have shot upwards but cant see any change in color for the worse.




Ive started planting up the back with some of the copious amounts of stargrass I produce every week. It grows like an absolute weed and just makes the tank feel a lot less bare.




Cuba and Super Red have stalled and seem unhappy. Especially the Super Red which was growing at quite the speed has puckered up in dismay. Ludwigias are known hogs though, so its no surprise a sudden starvation diet doesnt sit well with them.










Rotala OJ and Pink/Rosa were threatening to crawl out of the tank and got a complete replant after the pictures were taken. I moved both of them over to the right side of the tank, ill throw up a FTS tomorrow, it will be easier to just show it. Pink/Rosa seems like its quite hard to get any sort of color on, I have even let stems creep along the water surface but all it has gotten me is the tiniest teensiest flush of pink on the undersides. Maybe it needs more photon torpedo 







Unhappy Java fern 




The only winner this week is Hydrocotyle tripartita, which almost looks better!?


*Now who wants to relocate some nautical seat-based outdoor furniture?!* 😁


Spoiler: I do!



Ive whipped up a new batch of micros, I will be trying the ratios lifted directly from Marschner's book, (which is actually from Epstein so not sure why Marschner gets credit?)
As I have mentioned I dont expect terrestrial literature to be entirely copy-and-paste applicable to aquatic plants, but its close enough to many other micro mixes that I think it makes a decent starting point.
I have a big spreadsheet where I like to note down details on all the different fertilizers I come across, for aquariums, for terrestrial, and for hydroponic use. When you look at enough of these sets of numbers you realise most of them are pretty similar, and you start seeing trends and typical ranges. Surely a workable mix must be able to be found somewhere in that. I wasnt actually planning to go down the micro rabbithole so soon, but this strange chlorosis issue kind of forced my hand.

The original Epstein/Marschner micro numbers scaled down to 0.1 Fe;
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni

Compared to the Tropica clone I have been dosing
0.1 Fe
0.0565 Mn
0.0029 Zn
0.0058 B
0.0087 Cu
0.0029 Mo
0.0002 Ni (My addition)    

I did try dosing Tropica at 0.1 Fe for one week, it didnt seem to work so well, its possible it needed longer to work though, and I would like to retry it in the future.
As you can see Iron and Manganese is about the same, new mix will have ~7 times more Zinc, ~3 times more Boron, a bit less Copper, and quite a lot less Molybdenum. 
Small change in Nickel too but this is entirely insignificant imo. 

I found it interesting how close the Epstein/Marschner ratio is to the micro mix developed by burr740 over at TPT. I havent been able to find his latest recipe because of some of the trouble at TPT, but as of 03.01.2021 his ratio was the following (used at 4 times the amount);
0.1 Fe
0.02 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.002 Cu
0.0009 Mo
0.0002 Ni
For those not familiar with his posts, it was developed using his own tanks as test subjects, and seem to have arrived at approximately this ratio entirely on its own. His journey started when he kept having issues using a regular CSM+B mix, and the recipe is meant to be used with unchelated nutrients. As far as I know he doses EI, which should account for the higher total numbers in use. Unchelated vs chelated nutrients is also something I would like to explore later, but one insanity at a time.

Anyhow, since I have tried high, higher and pretty dang high it only makes sense that I would then want to try pretty low. So while I made the micro mix to 0.1, I will start out dosing 2/3 the amount just to see what happens. Admit it folks, even if you dont approve of my shenanigans at least it isnt boring 

2/3 Epstein/Marschner will give us approx;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni

Starting to get into Seachem Flourish territory 😜



Hope you are all having a good weekend and see you again tomorrow


----------



## LondonDragon

Hufsa said:


>


What is the crypt in this photo? Looks awesome, apologies if you mentioned it before somewhere on the thread!


----------



## Hufsa

@LondonDragon Cryptocoryne Purpurea, highly recommended, its been very easy going here and beautifully patterned


----------



## LondonDragon

Hufsa said:


> @LondonDragon Cryptocoryne Purpurea, highly recommended, its been very easy going here and beautifully patterned


Many thanks, I am adding that to my list, it will go nicely with the Cryptocoryne  "Rosen Maiden" Nurii


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> 2/3 Epstein/Marschner will give us approx;
> 0,067 Fe
> 0,033 Mn
> 0,013 Zn
> 0,013 B
> 0,004 Cu
> 0,000067 Mo
> 0,000067 Ni
> 
> Starting to get into Seachem Flourish territory 😜


some rubidium and vanadium perhaps?


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> some rubidium and vanadium perhaps?


Ah yes, I have a plan for that!
Step 1: Buy some really stanky salt, any kind will do, the more impurities the better
Step 2a: List all these impurities in my bespoke fertilizer
Step 2b: Say nothing
Step 3: Watch people wonder if these elements are beneficial for plant growth and see them buy mine because it is the completetestest.
Step 4: Profit


----------



## Garuf

In my experience the secret ingredient for rotala to colour up is time.


----------



## Hufsa

The Full Tank Shot I promised yesterday was a little bit delayed, it seems when the medication says water change 8 hours later, it really means 8 hours specifically and not whatever Hufsa thinks is "close enough" . I dosed the tank right before I went to bed saturday night, and planned to do the water change sunday evening as usual, because this worked fine the first time. But the foggy bloom was even more aggressive this time, and about halfway through the photoperiod I was getting concerned. The plants were not pearling like they usually do, so I think the oxygen levels in the water column were lower than they normally are, could be because of the bacterial activity. The otos were looking at me a little bit expectantly, so while normally wait for the photoperiod to be over before I do a water change, I decided this shouldnt wait, so I turned off the CO2 and went to work. The tank still looked a bit milky the rest of sunday but now monday morning it is gin clear and beautiful again.

Yesterday (but after 80% WC) & Today







I dont know if I am imagining things but the tank seems quite quick to get back on its feet again after any insults. Could it be the result of the mass of doped up plants or just my active imagination?
Either way, it always feels great to see the tank super clear and full of oxygen bubbles. I know I said I wasnt a fan of the 7-up look when it comes to CO2 microbubbles, but somehow the oxygen bubbles have endeared themselves to me more, and I dont mind seeing them as much. Maybe its because almost everything loves oxygen, and seeing photosynthesis so visibly makes me feel like everything is just humming with happiness. My fish are definitely not inactive with the amount of CO2 I am running, they are all over the place and full of gusto.

As you can see in the FTS some plants were trimmed and/or moved, right now there has spontaneously appeared a sort of yin/yang dark and light side split apart by the wood.
I run two Fluval's for lights as you know, but they are just freely rested on top of some beams, and I have sort of slid them to the back of the tank, and most to the right.
This gives the hungry section a lot of light while it spares the slower peeps over in the shady part.

I must confess, I have sinned against my cryptocorynes, namely Purpurea and Spiralis Red. Both these were planted from invitro, and when I saw just how many many rosettes there were in each cup, I knew I would have to thin out the stands in a relatively short time. But of course throwing out perfectly good plants feels so wrong, so I decided instead to grow them all out a bit to saleable size.
This was now, and while I wanted to keep the biggest plants it was just too messy trying to identify them, so the entire groups came out so I could sort them. I kept behind the three biggest Spiralis Red, and aorund 7 or so Purpurea. There were a ton of runners coming out of the motherplants of Purpurea, I think I counted 6! runners on one of them, but most had at least 3. I think the plants were maybe responding to the crowding in that corner, and wanted to try to make a grab for some "land beyond the thicket". There were a lot of expecting shrimp mothers hanging out in the thicket of plants, who got very annoyed at me for disturbing them. The motherplants had the runners snipped, old leaves trimmed and got replanted, I hope to encourage them to thicken up a bit again before starting to produce more babies. It remains to see how angry the Crypts will be with me for the disturbance.

Oh and I removed thread algae a little bit too hard and some of my Riccardia moss came loose. This led to me just plucking off any loose clumps, and leaving the edges that had naturally attached behind. I still need to remove some old glue spots, and im not sure whether or not to glue any back on. I dont want the entire piece of wood covered, but maybe a little bit more than what was left behind?
I think I need to redo the wood out of the tank, and that was just too much work so I am postponing it until I feel like it.




Garuf said:


> In my experience the secret ingredient for rotala to colour up is time.


I wonder if this is related to enriched substrates becoming less rich over time, since you use soil?
Then again my replanted rotala seems to be coloring up a bit more even now, so maybe there is something to time, not just nitrogen and light.



Final rambling: Must make a black spray bar SOME DAY, because this gray just sticks out so badly.
Maybe one day when I am 90 years old I will finally follow through one of my plans completely


----------



## Garuf

I aren’t sure, I think it’s more a plant maturity thing, regardless of age of soil it generally takes a few trimmings before they reliably show a flush of colour.


----------



## Hufsa

Part two of the CO2 saga:
Yesterday I switched out the JBL 20ppm drop checker liquid for the standard 4dkh/30ppm liquid I bought from CO2Art. Right out of the bottle I think the CO2Art one has much less bromothymol blue in it, which is disappointing, as it is so lightly colored its hard to see the exact shade of color.
Fast forward to today and the drop checker has now taken on the "end of day" color that should correspond to the max PH drop.

This is how it looks:



How much CO2 am I actually running?! 
This looks like a 30+ ppm color to me.

Has it been this high all along? I thought it was maybe 23-25 with the 20ppm liquid, so if this is the case then my estimate was quite far off 😅
Its not a perfect comparison unfortunately as I had to clean and adjust the spray bar yesterday, so the amount of surface agitation could have shifted slightly..
I need to perform another PH profile I think, that will be more reliable. I would check the actual PH level right now but its 18:20 and the CO2 already turned off at 17 so the window for today has closed.

As far as the wimpy color of the liquid goes, I definitely need to make my own, this is some B-S paying so much for a tiny bottle of the most anemic looking drop checker fluid 
I shot off a message to CO2Art to see if they agree with me that its off, but im not holding my breath. Im expecting them to say its too yellow, danger etc but not actually comment on the amount of bromothymol blue as I asked about. But maybe I will be pleasantly surprised 😉


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> Part two of the CO2 saga:
> Yesterday I switched out the JBL 20ppm drop checker liquid for the standard 4dkh/30ppm liquid I bought from CO2Art. Right out of the bottle I think the CO2Art one has much less bromothymol blue in it, which is disappointing, as it is so lightly colored its hard to see the exact shade of color.
> Fast forward to today and the drop checker has now taken on the "end of day" color that should correspond to the max PH drop.
> 
> This is how it looks:
> View attachment 187833
> How much CO2 am I actually running?!
> This looks like a 30+ ppm color to me.
> 
> Has it been this high all along? I thought it was maybe 23-25 with the 20ppm liquid, so if this is the case then my estimate was quite far off 😅
> Its not a perfect comparison unfortunately as I had to clean and adjust the spray bar yesterday, so the amount of surface agitation could have shifted slightly..
> I need to perform another PH profile I think, that will be more reliable. I would check the actual PH level right now but its 18:20 and the CO2 already turned off at 17 so the window for today has closed.
> 
> As far as the wimpy color of the liquid goes, I definitely need to make my own, this is some B-S paying so much for a tiny bottle of the most anemic looking drop checker fluid
> I shot off a message to CO2Art to see if they agree with me that its off, but im not holding my breath. Im expecting them to say its too yellow, danger etc but not actually comment on the amount of bromothymol blue as I asked about. But maybe I will be pleasantly surprised 😉



If that were mine I’d also be reading it at, at least 30ppm, but ur right it is a bit wishy washy…..it almost looks diluted! 🙄

Be interesting to see what ur next profile tells you!!


----------



## Hufsa

🚨 Picture warning 🚨 (oh lord)
Im gonna do thumbnails to hopefully not blow up the server 🤯

FTS comparison, 6 days of plant growth with CO2 and medium light 🥴 (Are you feeling it now Mr. Krabs?)








Things are improving, its not quite there yet for all species but some plants are doing much better.

Tonina in 0.5 Fe vs 0.067 Fe. This plant is no longer dying after I drastically reduced the micro dose.






Hydrocotyle Tripartita & Mini are also happier

Before:






After:






However, the Heteranthera zosterifolia (Stargrass) still seems to be having some paleness despite growing well otherwise. Hygrophila polysperma is also not entirely fixed.

















Pantanal continues to improve, the three remaining stems are now slowly recovering instead of dying like they were. Color and size can still be improved.








Marilia has a slight improvement while Cuba seems sort of on the fence. The Cuba got a bit angry with the week on zero micros and one stem decided to throw out a bunch of side shoots instead.

















Pedicellata 'Golden' has a few unstunted stems still and they appear to be growing.
In real life I would say the colors have improved a bit, but it doesnt show up on pictures.



 


Just for fun, a picture of the staghorn party at the back of this wood  The attached Riccardia is still doing well despite sharing its living space with various algae.

The amount of BBA overall in my tank seems to be decreasing somewhat, but green algae is on the rise, especially a new kind of thread algae that appeared virtually over night during the zero micro week.
It has been growing from the newest leaves of some select plants, and is very different to the thread algae I have had for ages. This one feels very silky, almost slimy, and you can hardly tell that you are grabbing it. My original thread algae is coarser and stronger and a bit more gritty. New thread algae just breaks apart when you grab on to it, while the old one can be pulled off the plants in mostly entire strands. New thread algae is quite straight with sweeping bends, while the old one is curlier.

A picture of the new thread algae taken earlier this week:





I told @plantnoobdude  I would grab a few pictures of the Buces.
This year Tropica had an april fools joke of blue anubias, however Bucephalandra "Blue Green" is not far off to being a legitimately blue plant.







"Kedagang" from Tropica is also pretty blue, this one is more royal blue / purple than the petrol / turquoise of "Blue Green".






Brownie Blue has the strongest blue shine, but its only visible from certain angles.




My kuhlis quite like this little hut I made for them out of the end point of a coconut. Its right next to the feeding area, and they like to lounge around in it between meals.
I had the Queen moss strapped down with the loofah mesh at first, and kept cutting it back flush to the coconut as it grew. I did this two to three times, and on the last cutting I carefully took off the mesh and the moss stayed behind. Queen Moss is the fastest growing moss I have ever encountered, its even faster than christmas moss which is saying something.





Overall im happy with the improvements this week. I will let the tank run for another week on this dose before evaluating what if anything to tweak to hopefully get the Stargrass and the rest of the plants to show the same improvement as Tonina and Hydrocotyle.
Going down in fertilizer dose always carries with it a longer lag period than going up, because the plants store previously uptaken nutrients. So I need to keep this in mind and give everything enough time to stabilize at a new level before changing anything.

CO2 and maintenance is the same as it has been, except I am doing slightly larger water changes to get the water column as clean as possible.

Will end the update with another picture of a much happier Tonina


----------



## shangman

Fabulous to see the improvements!! 😍 Proper results 😊


----------



## The Miniaturist

Love the little mossy kuhli hut. Holding the moss down with loofah mesh is a stroke of genius, it works so well!
It looks like your perseverance with lean dosing is going to be rewarded at last.


----------



## plantnoobdude

I had the same experience...
I was dosing 1ppm EDTA Fe from apfuk weekly (should be no issues with chelator ph efficiency)




then I swapped to tenso clone at 0.1 Fe dtpa weekly.
several plants improved almost instantly



apfuk 1ppm fe weekly                                                                                                                                                tenso 0.1 dtpa fe weekly.

took about two weeks for tonina to improve fully.


----------



## plantnoobdude

plantnoobdude said:


> I had the same experience...
> I was dosing 1ppm EDTA Fe from apfuk weekly (should be no issues with chelator ph efficiency)
> View attachment 188219
> 
> then I swapped to tenso clone at 0.1 Fe dtpa weekly.
> several plants improved almost instantly
> View attachment 188225
> apfuk 1ppm fe weekly                                                                                                                                                tenso 0.1 dtpa fe weekly.
> 
> took about two weeks for tonina to improve fully.
> View attachment 188226


and if you wanna see how they're doing now....


----------



## Hufsa

I have gotten some suggestions from the almighty cult leader @Happi of things to tweak to see if we cant get the Heteranthera and some of the others growing better 😉

I made a new batch of macro fert today, only to last 4 weeks which I think will be a good length for tweaking.
We're going up from 1.75 N to 2 N, and instead of 82%/18% Urea/KNO3 this one is 50%/50% and a touch more P and K.
Also increasing micros from 0.067 to 0.1. So;
8.86 NO3 (2 N)
0.8 PO4 (0.26 P)
3.12 K
0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni




There is a shift in the balance of the tank, the new type of thread algae is increasing, 
and BBA not only seems to appear in less new locations, it also seems to be going away in places where it is already established.
I didnt really expect this, and ive spent a few days staring very closely at stuff to make sure I wasnt just imagining it.
Like this pebble here with the mystery Riccardia that appeared in one of the native mosses, I could have sworn it used to have more BBA 



Unfortunately, because many of the mossy pebbles have been ugly lumps of black BBA growth, I havent taken many pictures of them because BBA is not very interesting to photo.
I dont have any real good before and after shots yet because of that, but I have taken some closer photos now and will monitor the development.







A snail decided to make its way across the Pantanal exactly when I wanted to take a photo. Thanks snail







Slimy threads like unhappy plants




Marilia group is finally starting to look presentable from the side.




Unhappy Heteranthera



Ok Hydrocotyle



Fairly happy Tonina 🤷‍♀️




I wonder what this Crypt will end up looking like. Purchased as Silver Queen, and im not sure if I have seen many pictures of that variety submersed. 
So far it doesnt look much like the emersed leaves.




Ive gone back to JBL 20ppm liquid for the dropchecker, the CO2Art liquid I have is just too pale to be usable and once I started questioning the bromothymol blue content, I also started questioning if it is precisely 4dkh and if the readings can be trusted. I dialed the CO2 down a bit to try to get closer to 20ppm as well.

Lastly a photo of Cryptocoryne spiralis Red, its just such a lovely cheerful plant with beautiful leaves. 
I wonder if the pink appearance is because of the chlorosis issue, and that I might get redder leaves when that is properly solved.


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> We're going up from 1.75 N to 2 N, and instead of 82%/18% Urea/KNO3 this one is 50%/50% and a touch more P and K.
> Also increasing micros from 0.067 to 0.1. So;
> 8.86 NO3 (2 N)
> 0.8 PO4 (0.26 P)
> 3.12 K
> 0.1 Fe
> 0.05 Mn
> 0.02 Zn
> 0.02 B
> 0.006 Cu
> 0.0001 Mo
> 0.0001 Ni



I suspect that those with Pantanal+Pedicatella in their tanks are going to end up with more or less very similar dosing amounts  
I'm currently at:
6.2 NO3
1.6 PO4
5.2 K
0.18 Fe

Water is gH 6/kH 3-4


----------



## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> I suspect that those with Pantanal+Pedicatella in their tanks are going to end up with more or less very similar dosing amounts


Interesting 
Your NO3 is lower but the rest is higher, I wonder what gives. Your GH and KH is very similar to mine, so that would make a good comparison.
You have old Aquasoil right? But you use root tabs extensively?


----------



## erwin123

Yes my aquasoil is ancient and I add about 10 pellets of osmocote each week. They pushed down to a depth of about 5cm (I have deep substrate).

Basically my thinking is that every time I pull out, say, a Pantanal stem that has been growing a root system for 2 weeks, and then replant them with no roots, am I going to cause a shock to the stem since suddenly its root system has disappeared - in which case, having an osmocote ball right next to the replanted stem may help the stem get easier access to substrate nutrients to compensate for the sudden loss of root system (I have no scientific basis for this of course, just trial and error)

My ratios are sort of the consequence of me starting with APT EI and then recently mixing in a bit of TSN to change the ratios a bit. I am thinking of increasing NO3 to 7ppm by increasing the amount of TSN, as TSN is basically N with hardly any P or K.


----------



## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> I add about 10 pellets of osmocote each week


Thats a lot of osmocote 

Its too bad you cant make your own ferts, mixing with different premade ones seems inconvenient as there are numerous changes being made


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Thats a lot of osmocote
> 
> Its too bad you cant make your own ferts, mixing with different premade ones seems inconvenient as there are numerous changes being made


I'm using clones called Plantacote/Starxcote and its possible that these pellets are smaller than regular osmocote (can't judge exactly from the photos)






						Plantacote® Triple 14 | PLANTACOTE
					






					www.plantacote.com


----------



## Wookii

erwin123 said:


> 10 pellets of osmocote each week



When you say 'pellet' do you mean one of these:





Or an individual 'ball', like one of these:


----------



## erwin123

ah ok, i meant 'ball'  like in the 2nd photo as osmocote doesn't come in pellets like the first photo as far as i know?


----------



## Wookii

erwin123 said:


> ah ok, i meant 'ball'  like in the 2nd photo as osmocote doesn't come in pellets like the first photo as far as i know?



Both images are of osmocote products, they do a range of plant different pellets - like all their products, design for terrestrial plants. I assumed you'd be using the latter, but through it was worth clarifying.


----------



## Wookii

erwin123 said:


> ah ok, i meant 'ball'  like in the 2nd photo as osmocote doesn't come in pellets like the first photo as far as i know?



Both images are of Osmocote products, they do a range of plant different pellets - like all their products, design for terrestrial plants. I assumed you'd be using the latter, but thought it was worth clarifying.

Which Osmocote product do you use then? The reason I ask is many of them have several different coloured balls with different nutrient contents.


----------



## erwin123

Wookii said:


> Both images are of Osmocote products, they do a range of plant different pellets - like all their products, design for terrestrial plants. I assumed you'd be using the latter, but thought it was worth clarifying.
> 
> Which Osmocote product do you use then? The reason I ask is many of them have several different coloured balls with different nutrient contents.



I use plantacote Triple 14 which is NPK only:  Plantacote® Triple 14 | PLANTACOTE

And Starxcote which contains Trace elements: https://www.starx.com.sg/_files/ugd/03394a_b3a8c001a8fb4de4b7c4ceb8a5e3e970.pdf

I use more of the NPK version and less of the version with trace elements just in case there is 'trace metal toxicity', but so far, all the shrimp seem ok.


----------



## Hanuman

Wookii said:


> When you say 'pellet' do you mean one of these:


Jesus man, adding that would blow up the tank instantly.


----------



## Wookii

Hanuman said:


> Jesus man, adding that would blow up the tank instantly.



I agree completely, but not significantly different to one of these though is it!


----------



## Hanuman

erwin123 said:


> I use more of the NPK version and less of the version with trace elements just in case there is 'trace metal toxicity', but so far, all the shrimp seem ok.


That is a wise choice. Avoid any osmocote that contain traces at all costs since you could be seriously overdosing traces.


----------



## Hanuman

Wookii said:


> I agree completely, but not significantly different to one of these though is it!


I would never even add that. That would be crazy in my opinion unless you have a giant Echinodorus or some hungry monster plant in the tank.


----------



## Wookii

Hanuman said:


> I would never even add that. That would be crazy in my opinion unless you have a giant Echinodorus or some hungry monster plant in the tank.



Again I agree completely, they caused massive problems in one of my tanks when I added just 4 of them, yet quite a number of manufacturers sell these osmocote clones in the little pill casing as 'Root tabs'. Best avoided in my opinion, but planting individual balls as @erwin123 does, is an interesting idea if all the 'balls' are of identical construction/composition.


----------



## Hanuman

Wookii said:


> Again I agree completely, they caused massive problems in one of my tanks when I added just 4 of them, yet quite a number of manufacturers sell these osmocote clones in the little pill casing as 'Root tabs'. Best avoided in my opinion, but planting individual balls as @erwin123 does, is an interesting idea if all the 'balls' are of identical construction/composition.


That's what I used to do and no problem there. I used to add 3 or 4 balls every month or so in those small glass cups when I was growing E. Udonthani and E. Quinquangulare. Those are fert eaters so I was not concerned.


----------



## Hufsa

More low effort update today than I had hoped, ive gotten sick again and currently have a fever, so im just gonna throw these pics out there so @plantnoobdude will be happy and then go lie down 🤒
Not gonna be able to do the water change and plant trimming today so im just postponing that until I feel better 
In general most plants look a bit more happy after this week, so we're inching closer to a good level.





A few days ago a package arrived from @dw1305 with two smaller forms of Bolbitis, words cannot describe how happy I am to have them 🥰
They have gotten carefully planted on the center wood, its only fair they should get center stage.
They will probably need quite a lot of time to reach full potential, I dont have long term experience with Bolbitis in high tech but my regular variety Bolbitis took almost two years to grow to full size in low tech.
Shape of the leaves depends a lot on conditions in the tank as well, so I will be comparing the three types with some caution.
The two ones from Darrel did look a little bit different on arrival, but I cant say if that just comes down to different growing conditions.
I have temporarily named them Type A and Type B to help me keep track. Type B is on the left part of the wood and type A is towards the middle/arch.



I quite mercilessly cut down the java ferns next to the baby bolbitiseseses, I want them to get a head start before the established ferns crowd them.
Some of the leaves have turned a little bit brown, not sure if its from the hitchhiker treatment or just sudden increase in light, as I imagine my tank is a fair bit brighter than Darrel's.
I have turned down the general light level a bit today just in case it helps ease them into it.









Emersed backup is doing pretty well, and to my great surprise none of the houseplants have died from being transferred to hydroponic.




Will be back with more ramblings once im feeling better


----------



## Courtneybst

I hope you feel better soon @Hufsa 

Everything's looking great!!


----------



## The Miniaturist

Slow but steady real progress & the hydroponic houseplants are looking excellent!
Hope you feel more yourself soon 😊


----------



## KirstyF

Hope ur feeling better soon chick! 

Looks like ur adventure into Co2 and funky dosing is starting to come together! 😊

Patience and perseverance will out!!
Well….possibly lots of swearing and perseverance…..but ur getting there! 😉

Take care, eat soup and get yourself well!!


----------



## Hufsa

Courtneybst said:


> I hope you feel better soon @Hufsa
> 
> Everything's looking great!!





The Miniaturist said:


> Slow but steady real progress & the hydroponic houseplants are looking excellent!
> Hope you feel more yourself soon 😊





KirstyF said:


> Hope ur feeling better soon chick!
> 
> Looks like ur adventure into Co2 and funky dosing is starting to come together! 😊
> 
> Patience and perseverance will out!!
> Well….possibly lots of swearing and perseverance…..but ur getting there! 😉
> 
> Take care, eat soup and get yourself well!!


Thank you everyone for the well wishes, it always warms my heart a lot 🥰

Im still a little stuffy but the fever has passed and I was very happy to test negative for another round of Covid, so I was able to celebrate the Norwegian National Day yesterday with my family as planned. I was determined to eat some cake and icecream even if it had killed me   Couldnt taste much of the cake courtesy of the stuffy nose, but its the principle of it.

Tank got a bit of a fever-influenced trim (and a waterchange) back on monday, it ended up pretty short, I think I just wanted to not have to deal with trimming plants for a while 
I had to tilt the camera a bit so you can see the stargrass peeking out back there 😅




(Picture taken monday)
Not to worry though, the stargrass will be back at the surface in an hour a week or so. I reduced the tanks macro dose from 2 N to 1.5 N because of the cutback as well.

Today my head was clear enough to whip up new micros as planned, this time we are trying Happis trace recipe, more or less, a bit less copper.
As you may remember I started out doing custom micro's with Tropica's recipe, and then I tried straight Epstein/Marschner out of curiosity.
So the tank has been running on this up until now;
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni

Starting tomorrow;
0,1 Fe
0,067 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
Summed up; Bit more Mn (Happi insists this is a more beneficial ratio, I am intrigued because it is higher relative to Fe than almost all my other fertilizer data sets),
a smidge less Zn and B, and a fair bit more Mo.
I had a feeling 0.0001 Mo in the previous might be too low, this figure is on the very lower end of the ranges I have record of.

I quite like the spreadsheet I have with all these different numbers. Theres just so many different ferts, trying to pick one and hoping that will work feels like complete guesswork, and when it doesnt work, when you increase the dose more and more trying to fix the chlorosis, and you reach the max dose but you still have issues, what do you do then?
Picking another one at random and doing it all over again feels like fumbling in the dark trying to solve it by chance. Especially since I enjoy understanding how things work and why.
So im always trying to look at this with a wide perspective, trying to find the overlap, the common ranges used, because most of them work well/ok for most people.
Im trying to find the red thread that links all of them together so I can understand the big picture.
Some of the traces are more forgiving than others. Boron for instance is reported to have a very narrow range between "not enough" and "too much". And we must accept that "too much" is a real thing. I believe we all do agree it is physically possible. We just dont all agree where that area is and if we are near it, but thats ok 😊

In a way I am thankful for having inert substrate. Theres no doubt a rich substrate makes things easier because it will pick up any slack in your dosing to a certain extent.
Dosing too much? Rich substrate will help you by hanging on to some of that. Not dosing enough? Rich substrate got your back and rooted plants can get it from there. But this wont last forever.
I dont like the idea of a system that has to be reset too often. Its too much work for not enough fun.
Inert substrate wont do you any favors because you have to get things exactly right. Bad for smoothing out mistakes, great for feedback!
Im very much aware that I am trying to thread the needle here to get things exactly right, and I like it. Im also probably the least qualified to do it but thats not gonna stop me from trying 
I wouldnt do any of this if I didnt think it was interesting 

Will be very interested to see if we can spot any differences in the next set of pictures with these relatively small adjustments in traces.


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> BBA not only seems to appear in less new locations, it also seems to be going away in places where it is already established


Even if it were only for an update on this, I am impatient for your next journal posting 

Love following this journal !


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> Even if it were only for an update on this, I am impatient for your next journal posting
> 
> Love following this journal !


Will definitely keep everyone updated on this. So far I seem to have traded BBA for thread algae, which I suspect will not be an acceptable trade for most, but if I can get rid of the thread algae (without resorting to treatments) then suddenly we're onto something very interesting


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> I seem to have traded BBA for thread algae


As you would be the first to note, one tank is not yet enough evidence for proving cause/effect. But what I find fascinating is that ferts dosing is not usually associated with BBA. You may be onto something here, exciting to see how it develops.

Pssst ... don't mention the L*** word


----------



## Hanuman

Hufsa said:


> if I can get rid of the thread algae (without resorting to treatments) then suddenly we're onto something very interesting


You wont be able to get rid of most present algae, specially filamentous algae without intervention, whether that's chemical or mechanical.


Hufsa said:


> Im very much aware that I am trying to thread the needle here to get things exactly right, and I like it. Im also probably the least qualified to do it but thats not gonna stop me from trying
> I wouldnt do any of this if I didnt think it was interesting
> 
> Will be very interested to see if we can spot any differences in the next set of pictures with these relatively small adjustments in traces.


I respect that. If I may, what is your objective with your tank?
As much as I understand the desire to experiment, it's important to keep in mind that for you to conclude what a specific trace mixture would be doing (or not) would require several months of dosing the same. To that you also need to account for the changes occurring in your substrate (inert or not) and water column and have a deep understanding of the function of each trace in plant physiology. Plant experts agree that plant deficiencies or behavior are in fact rather difficult to assess because many times over it's a combination of multiple deficiencies or factors leading to a deficiency or behavior. That is why pinpointing an element, a ratio or even a macro element is not always as straightforward as a google search sometimes implies. That is why I have decided that I would not delve into fooling myself in diagnosing deficiencies, specially trace related ones. It's a very complicated matter.

*Anecdote*: yesterday I asked a fellow plant seller about the price of some anubias nana petit variegated that I have. I've never sold them so I showed him a picture, since I have a few in my tank. The guy immediately jumped to conclude that the variegation was due to trace deficiencies, just like that no questions asked... sigh.


----------



## Hufsa

Results for this week are in, I was surprised. Symptoms are overall worse for most of the plants 





Patchy white banding is back on stargrass











Ludwigia Cuba has a little bit more color in the centers, but I think most likely just because it grew closer to the light. 
It had a little sulk while it was short and freshly replanted, I attribute this to light proximity. The plant is suffering from the chlorosis issue, but when it is close to the light it is producing red pigments to protect itself from the intensity. This makes it look as if it is less pale than it actually is. So absent strong light it is almost completely white. Bottom line is the chlorosis doesnt seem better.




Ludwigia palustris Super Red is better than last week but not remotely 100% good




Misc unhappy customers;








Hydrocotyle still looking alright, so whatever issue doesnt seem to be bothering this one so much any longer.




Tonina is worse which is not good. Pantanal is Pantanal 




Will consult with the high priest and my crystal orb to divine the next step 🧙‍♂️🔮
Considering reverting to a previous trace formula and upping the overall dose to 0.2 to see what happens.


----------



## Hufsa

On the subject of BBA and staghorn algae.
Im not making any claims here because I dont fancy starting WW3, so if anyone feels like passionately discussing the following images *please do so in a separate thread!*
Im just sharing some pictures I have taken.

26.04 (From above, thick coating of BBA on all strands)




11.05 (Same pebble out of focus in the bottom of the pic)




15.05 Less BBA but some more thread algae




11.05




23.05 Appears to have less BBA and staghorn


----------



## Wookii

Seems to be some quite significant chlorosis across the board - is that all new growth being affected - it looks like some older leaves are paling too?

As @Hanuman says though, its going to be difficult to ascribe cause and effect with such frequent changes to the dosing regime. It could well take longer than a week to the effects of a dosing change to become apparent. For example the effects you are seeing now could potentially be the result from dosing your were doing two or more weeks prior bringing the longer run equilibrium water column levels of a particular nutrient to the point of deficiency?


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Seems to be some quite significant chlorosis across the board - is that all new growth being affected - it looks like some older leaves are paling too?


Mostly new growth it seems.


Wookii said:


> As @Hanuman says though, its going to be difficult to ascribe cause and effect with such frequent changes to the dosing regime. It could well take longer than a week to the effects of a dosing change to become apparent.


True, ideally each change would run longer, but my situation is not an attempt to prove the meaning of life, the universe and everything (dont get me wrong im just being a bit silly), in which I mean im not trying to scientifically prove stuff, I am trying to fix a chlorosis issue before a couple of these plants die outright.
Since this is my only tank and I cant/wont run things entirely into the ground to see what happens, I have adopted a faster turnaround on changes in order to try to dial it into a workable range sooner. 
Once things arent quite so actively sh*t I would like to make smaller changes and let them run for a longer time.



Wookii said:


> For example the effects you are seeing now could potentially be the result from dosing your were doing two or more weeks prior bringing the longer run equilibrium water column levels of a particular nutrient to the point of deficiency?


Possibly, although to minimize the effects of build up I perform quite large (80-90%) water changes each week.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Considering reverting to a previous trace formula and upping the overall dose to 0.2 to see what happens.


I would try this. sounds good.
if I remember is was based on marschner/epstein? 
overall I think the tank looks very nice!


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> overall I think the tank looks very nice!


Thanks for this 🥰😄

If you look at it from a distance and dont know anything about plant nutrition I guess it is passable!


----------



## KirstyF

Random thought @Hufsa.

On the basis of your inert substrate challenge, have you considered picking a couple of your stems and putting them in a wee pot of nice rich aquasoil (assuming you can lay your hands on a handful). Not sure if this would mess with your parameters as I guess even a wee bit would leach slightly but just thinking that the response of those by comparison, might add to your bank of knowledge! 

The scientists out there will quite rightly shoot me as it’s a bit basic, but, as we think of our tanks as a holistic ecosystem, it might almost be like having a mini ‘control’ subject in the tank. 

So….does having the plants in aquasoil with the subsequent available nutrient ‘top-up’ fix/improve the chlorosis and or other issues?

If yes, this could indicate or further confirm that the other tank parameters (light, flow, Co2 etc) are in fact appropriate for the plant and that the less rich water column dosing would be effective with those parameters, if aquasoil were used.

You therefore continue to figure out what you need to do to compensate for the ‘gap’ of not having that ‘top up’ available but with:

1 - A target plant for comparison 
2 - A ‘proven’ break glass in case of emergency solution if you need to save some stems before they completely punk out on you. 

It’s never gonna be quite this simple of course and might not work at all, but just a thought!!

Also, this may be completely contrary to your plans, so if it’s kind of defeating the object or simply not necessary then please feel free to completely ignore the suggestion and we shall never speak of it again!! 😉😂


----------



## Hufsa

I havent been very good at updating, or doing water changes 
Took a little bit of time off for my health. I wasnt up to mixing custom micros, so I kept the old mix running. Plants werent doing well on it, so I felt like I still had to do _something,_ so I just doubled the dose to 0.2 to see what happened.

This gave us:
0,2 Fe
0,134 Mn
0,026 Zn
0,026 B
0,012 Cu
0,006 Mo
0,0002 Ni

Plants didnt like this either  There was some general improvement but still very glaring chlorosis issue.
Tonina continues to be pale, it was going so well when it got 0.067 Fe.. 

Today I finally felt ready to tackle some fertilizer again, so I decided to pivot back to when the Tonina was green, which was when it got between 0.1 and 0.067 Fe with the following traces:

0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni
or
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni

These two weekly micro regimes got me green Tonina, but the stargrass+ still had issues. So it was close, but not quite.

We're going to try a higher Fe to Mn ratio to see if this is the reason my plants are not uptaking the iron as they should. You may already know about the competitive relationship between Fe and Mn.
When I can have chlorotic Tonina at 0.5 Fe, but green Tonina at 0.067 Fe, that suggests to me that this isnt neccessarily about total levels of iron.
Anyhow, I just finished mixing the following, and the tank will get an overdue waterchange today and new micro from tomorrow.
0,1 Fe
0,02 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni

Onto the pictures! All but the last FTS were taken on monday before trim



Totally overgrown with a ton of stargrass and thread algae




Angry Pantanal and sad Tonina. Annoyed that the Pantanal stunted so badly I had to pinch the tops off. 
The new mossy rock next to them contains one of the native mosses, actually the one I like the most. 
Its an absolutely microscopic moss that grows in a nice weeping fashion. It had totally outgrown its original little pebble, so it got a transplant.
Im thinking of calling it Troll Moss.
Above the Troll Moss is two almost entirely identical varieties of Buce, Silver Grey and Pearl Grey. For a while I thought they would turn out to be exactly the same, but there is one notable difference I have found so far.
The underside of the leaves, clearly visible on a rolled up new leaf, is different. Silver Grey has a green underside and Pearl Grey has pink.




My Borneo crypts are slowing gaining speed, the Silver Queens and Striolata Tiger are putting on mass and the Striolata Mini has been flowering actually. 
Queen Vandom is busy making a baby on a runner and the Ferruginea has decided to become two small plants.




Im transitioning the tank from stargrass dominance to more polysperma for a couple of reasons. The polysperma doesnt grow quite so insanely fast, the stargrass was very useful when I was low on plant mass, but this need is no longer there and im throwing out tons of plants every week. The polysperma is easier to trim for me, doesnt throw out quite as many aerial roots, and is more tolerant of high flow without damaging the leaves. The transition is a work in progress because I want to maintain overall good mass.


----------



## Hufsa

My precious baby bolbitiseses are sulking a little bit after the treatment they got. You see, @dw1305 keeps some creatures in his tanks that he likes to compare to shrimp. 
The problem is that I find his "shrimp" species to be absolutely horrifyingly icky heebie jeebie inducing little things. I wanted the plants but I didnt want anything else 





Wooki suggested carbonated water to "gas" any hitchhikers without damaging the plants. Maybe I overdid it, but the leaves have melted back some after it.





The left one has taken it hardest, but the rhizomes still look ok, and I see new growth already on the right one. So I think in due time they will come around 
And I havent seen any signs of creatures 😁


----------



## Hufsa

Updates are probably going to be a bit sparse from this side for a while. My health and outlook usually takes a bit of a dive around summertime, and when I do have energy I usually want to spend it with family and the doggo. Ill keep the tank ticking along with plant trimming and making sure it doesnt run out of ferts, as the latter has traditionally been very hard on my plants, and the former is a new neccessity from CO2. Will definitely make sure CO2 doesnt run out either. Water changes will probably be reduced to monthly. 

Not to worry though, I will probably be back to regular form in autumn as usual 😊
See you on the other side


----------



## Yugang

Wish you good health @Hufsa 
Stay strong, and keep lean


----------



## The Miniaturist

Wishing you the health & strength for everything you want to do. Take care. 😊


----------



## Courtneybst

Hope you feel better sooner rather than later @Hufsa !


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> My health and outlook usually takes a bit of a dive around summertime, and when I do have energy I usually want to spend it with family and the doggo


Sending good vibes mate, life's about prioritising.... 👍


----------



## KirstyF

Will miss you hon. Take care, be well, and enjoy the family time. 😊


----------



## ElleDee

Take care of yourself, Hufsa, and we'll be here when you feel up to it.


----------



## Conort2

Take care @Hufsa, enjoy the summer with your family!


----------



## Karmicnull

Family and doggo definitely the right priorities. Look after yourself.


----------



## Wookii

Hope you feel better soon, after the Summer @Hufsa - hopefully I will have some 'precious's' for you by then!


----------



## Hufsa

Maybe a little sneaky update from me after all 
Ive had a really difficult time lately and your comments were all really lovely and made me feel not so alone, and not so bad about prioritizing my health 💗
I dont want to get too much into personal stuff because thats not really what this journal is about, just know that I really appreciate all of you and consider you all my UKAPS family.
I was feeling really overwhelmed at the prospect of taking care of the tank, but I think I have managed to turn it around a little bit, just by dealing with one small piece at a time.
My goal for this summer will be a controlled decrease in maintenance, without things going completely off the rails. Total lack of maintenance is one thing in low tech, but in high tech things can get really bad. One of the promises I made myself when I got the CO2 system was that I had to keep up with the increased demand on me, even when its difficult.



KirstyF said:


> On the basis of your inert substrate challenge, have you considered picking a couple of your stems and putting them in a wee pot of nice rich aquasoil (assuming you can lay your hands on a handful). Not sure if this would mess with your parameters as I guess even a wee bit would leach slightly but just thinking that the response of those by comparison, might add to your bank of knowledge!


Definitely something I can do, I have a little bit of Tropica Powder Soil in a bag somewhere, so could plonk a Pantanal and Golden in there and see how they get on. Probably much better I would bet. It would be useful as another way to ensure the survival of those two species. Emersed Golden is going really strong in the windowsill, but the emersed Pantanal is still meh.



KirstyF said:


> Also, this may be completely contrary to your plans, so if it’s kind of defeating the object or simply not necessary then please feel free to completely ignore the suggestion and we shall never speak of it again!! 😉😂


Always appreciate your input @KirstyF !🥰


At this point I have fiddled around with a few slightly different trace ratios. 



Spoiler: Lotsa numbers



The one that is running now has made Cuba happier, but Tonina is still pale;
0,1 Fe
0,02 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni

And I have in my notes the dose I used when Tonina was happy but not so much the other plants;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
and
0,1 Fe
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni


I also know what the plants didnt like, which was;
0,1 Fe
0,067 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,006 Cu
0,003 Mo
0,0001 Ni
and
0,2 Fe
0,134 Mn
0,026 Zn
0,026 B
0,012 Cu
0,006 Mo
0,0002 Ni
and
0,1 Fe
0,056 Mn
0,003 Zn
0,006 B
0,0087 Cu
0,0029 Mo
0,0002 Ni
and
0,5 Fe
0,28 Mn
0,014 Zn
0,029 B 
0,043 Cu
0,014 Mo



A representative image of how I feel looking at all of this trying to find out what to do next:





And before anyone pipes up with "But Hufsa, why dont you just add more!?", I would like to remind you that the plants were doing really bad with 0.5 Fe + traces. 
Ive tried "just more" and it didnt work, annoyingly. It would have made my life a lot simpler if it did!
I hope eventually we will figure out why it doesnt work for me when it works for many others.

I never would have thought I'd have to get down to such small details.
If I do find some dosing that seems to fix it, I want to try to reproduce the issue and see if I can make it reappear and disappear on demand.

Hmm..
I tried again to look at what I used for iron and traces when I was doing low tech. Back then I used a premade trace blend and added Fe DTPA on top of that, using the K.I.S.S. principle.
This worked pretty well and I didnt have chlorosis as long as I dosed enough overall.
Then I started getting concerned that the ratios would be off from me adding iron on top of iron, and decreased a bit the additional Fe DTPA. I believe this is when the chlorosis problems started.
It looks like my tank MAY do better on a higher Fe to Mn ratio, maybe as much as 10 : 1 or more. Just adding more micros overall doesnt seem to produce the same effect.
So this is what im going to try next.
Ill keep the current numbers running, but have made a separate solution of just Fe DTPA that I can dose manually. Each dose gives 0.05 Fe.
Ill add this two times a week and let it run like that for a while, see what happens.


Unrelated note:
Scutariella has reappeared again AGAIN 😡 4 and a half weeks since last treatment. Last treatments were weekly ones, four of them from mid april to mid may.
Apparently not long enough 😣 
To say I was annoyed to spot it again is an understatement, the follow up my tank will require over summer suddenly increased a lot.
I think I have read the life cycle of the parasite is 2 weeks, I will need to double check this. I was treating weekly because the earlier medications were ineffective, but the latest one seems better so biweekly might be ok.
It looks like I might have to change water every two weeks throughout summer instead of monthly 😒


All in all I am doing a bit better though. 
Might not go completely MIA after all, we shall see 😊
Big hugs and a picture of Cuba that is doing a bit better


----------



## Hufsa

Quick and dirty update for the journal 🌞




Pics taken after a massive trim, I think I threw out well over one solid liter of plant material.

My "more iron" plan didnt seem to do the trick. Dang, I had moderate confidence that might be it.
Some plants are slightly happier, some are super stunted, theres a ton of what I think is called Blanket weed a thick slimy stringy algae that looks like it should be in a pond, and BBA is back with a vengeance, just look at the spray bar.
I actually have thread algae growing from hardscape/equipment, which I think is rather impressive, even if its impressive for the wrong reasons 😎
I think its time to try plan B and see what results that gives. If it works better I can base new attempts on that and go from there.
Plan B is finding a premade fertilizer that is the least extortionately priced diluted water, dosing that and seeing what happens.
Its convenient to try this right now when I dont feel up for making ferts all the time.




The Troll moss seems to be really happy after I replanted it, and it has grown a lot. So far it doesnt seem deterred by summer temperatures.
Speaking of, I have adjusted the Inkbird temperature controller that controls the inline heater to account for summer conditions.
We dont have air conditioning so summer temperatures are always a challenge, although switching to LED has helped a lot.
The Inkbird is a really great bit of kit, the adjustable heating and cooling differential allows me to set up the tank in the following way;
Tank is allowed to drop as low as 21 degrees C before the heater will kick in. 
I have set it like this to preserve some of the cool of the night and allow it to carry into daytime, leading to lower peak day temperatures.
If it does drop as low as 21, the heater kicks in and heats it up to 24. If the tank gets higher than 25 the homemade fan turns on to bring it back down to 24.
I have been running my tank at 23 throughout winter, I could ask the fan to aim for this but it would be a lot of work for the fan and thus cause more evaporation. 
I could also let it get as hot as 26 before it starts cooling, but so far it hasnt struggled to keep it down and having a narrower temperature range is inherently better for CO2 stability.
The Inkbird also features adjustable alarms for high and low temperatures, I have it set to 28 and 18 respectively. Highly recommend the Inkbird if that wasnt apparent 😃

The homemade fan is an old computer fan with a 3D printed mount courtesy of my SO. It was made for my old tank/hood, so it doesnt really fit any more, but I have just rested it on top of the lights for now.
Before I leave for holidays we're gonna need to print a different mount for it as it is a fairly large risk of falling into the tank and electrocuting stuff at the moment.
Im planning to be gone for around two weeks in july, so I need the tank to be easy to look after for the pet sitter.
She is meticulous at following instructions so there is no risk of overfeeding, but she is also pretty nervous regarding the tank, so I want to keep her tasks as simple as possible 
Having "Dont knock the precarilously placed fan into the tank and electrocute things" on the to-do list sounds like it might contribute to anxiousness so we cant have any of that 







Both Super Red and Rotalas have stunted, this might be CO2 and not ferts, I have noticed the drop checker not turning quite green enough if the water level drops too low (because surface agitation increases). I try to keep up with the top-ups, but its not 100%. I really want an auto top off, just no budget for it at the moment. Evaporation didnt matter much when I was running low tech, but now with the lid off and the fan going the evaporation rate is much greater and actually important to keep up with.




Cuba is one of the plants that is doing better, these are freshly replanted so not the greatest shot.
Stargrass is still slightly chlorotic in the tops.

Ive got 95% of the Stargrass area converted over to polysperma now, the Stargrass just grows too dang fast and I realise why we dont see it much in high tech tanks.
Still, I keep a little bit as it shows the chlorosis thing better than polysperma, who just turns a rather unhelpful shade of brown.


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I really want an auto top off, just no budget for it at the moment.



A budget option:

Amazon product

They can also be DIY'd also - a rough and ready version from good old Joey:


----------



## Hufsa

Uppetty datety 🌞
Its super warm in Norway today 🥵 Im going to book a one way ticket to Siberia, my noodly limbs are adhering to the desk chair 😠



Hufsa said:


> My "more iron" plan didnt seem to do the trick. Dang, I had moderate confidence that might be it.
> Some plants are slightly happier, some are super stunted, theres a ton of what I think is called Blanket weed a thick slimy stringy algae that looks like it should be in a pond, and BBA is back with a vengeance, just look at the spray bar.


I was a little bit hasty when I wrote this, its not entirely the case.
I think I was disappointed because I was hoping for much better results across the board, but it does seem like we are one step closer to figuring it out.



Hufsa said:


> I think its time to try plan B and see what results that gives. If it works better I can base new attempts on that and go from there.
> Plan B is finding a premade fertilizer that is the least extortionately priced diluted water, dosing that and seeing what happens.
> Its convenient to try this right now when I dont feel up for making ferts all the time.


Plan B was set in motion, I ordered a fertilizer that contained HEDTA thinking it was close to EDDHA in chelating power, but I had forgotten that its actually marginally better than EDTA and worse than DTPA until Happi pointed it out to me. I cancelled the order, and I couldnt find a fertilizer that had EDDHA so I got annoyed with the whole plan and decided to postpone it again.




FTS. Camera decided to go extra hard on washing out any color on the plant tops. Thanks camera. The tops are not this white.
Drop checker is the wrong color here, it doesnt turn the final color until later in the day. Now that I think about it that is a little bit concerning.
But I think it has been like this all along, even back when I had an updated PH profile. I will check.
Tank got a few hydroponic plants placed in the back a few days ago. So far growth of green algae seems to have slowed a bit.

To prepare the tank for me going on holiday I have made changes to when my skimmer runs. It used to run only at night, but with the help of snails the floating bit kept getting stuck every night when it turned on, and it had to receive percussive maintenance every time. Since I am hypervigilant about factors that can contribute to higher than intended levels of CO2 in the tank and endanger my fishies, I need the skimmer to reliably remove surface film daily so that off-gassing is consistent. I didnt want our petsitter to have to deal with this.
We'll be gone for about two and a half weeks, so I changed out the fine floss for a coarse sponge that will not clog during my absence.
I also set it to run 24/7, and have spent a while adjusting the CO2 injection rate to account for this new increase in off-gassing.
I dont think I want to keep this change long term, I had to increase the injection rate quite a lot, and if the skimmer should fail entirely (just not work at all), I fear the CO2 levels could go quite high if a surface film develops since the injection rate is much higher.
Im trying to have my tank set up in a way where risks will be minimized, and skimmers seem to me to be one of the pieces of equipment that malfunctions the most, just based on what I have gathered on forums over the years. I have been Hufsa(TM) Overthinking how I could work around this issue, but no concrete solution yet. Stay tuned for updates on this 😜

Plant health pictures



Cryptocoryne spiralis Red is recovering from the uproot and trim it got and some of the leaves are dramatically increasing in size. Im scared 




Polysperma looks better, still a little bit funky color but better (I think..)




Marilia is a better color of yellow, as is Cuba. Cuba is still sulking from a recent replant. Narrow leaf java fern still chlorotic.




Bolbitis type A has put out a fair amount of new lush leaves, very good size increase for relatively small rhizomes. I have thinned back its neighbors again to allow it good flow.
Type B is still recovering from the carbonated water treatment, I can see a tiny bit of new green activity but its slow.
I probably should have been a bit more careful with the carbonated water instead of going all "fizz fizz b**ches!" 
Live and learn 







Super Red is still trying to recover from whatever caused it to stunt so much.







Rotalas I would say are looking better, they have recovered from the trim and look less pale than they have looked for a while.




One of my few pieces of remaining stargrass. Chlorosis in this is better but not fixed. Dont mind the roots of the emersed plants.




The last actively growing Pantanal is doing pretty good relative to their usual happiness in my tank. It has a happiness range of 1-10 where 1 is "kinda angry" and 10 is "VERY ANGRY imma die now!".
As you can see its growing in a pot of sand capped aquasoil. So far its not growing _that_ much better in the soil than it was in just sand, the only thing I know will 100% cause *great amgery* is replanting or moving the stems. Its got downcurled leaves which is not good, but its not bright angry red in the top (which seems to be a sign its about to stunt), and the overall diameter is decent compared to the 15mm diameter growth I get sometimes when its a different kind of angry.




Sagittaria is throwing out chlorotic leaves, P. helferi might be recovering a bit, it didnt show up in this picture but it looked like the center might be greener in real life.
Hydrocotyle tripartita 'mini' is mildly chlorotic and so is M. Guyana, although its hard to see.




In the middle of the Buce clumps in this picture is Bucephalandra sp. "Dark Achilles", its a very slow growing Buce but so far seems to do ok under water, contrary to some reports. I wonder if there are different populations in the wild, where some populations of the Achilles / Kishii type do not do well under water, and some that do ok.
Which kind you end up getting when you buy one might then be entirely up to chance unless youre buying submersed grown and propagated plants.
If it keeps doing well I will split the rhizome and try to get it to my friends in the UK so you can also have it.




Some pale Microsorum pteropus "Petit". This plant is so far not particularly Petit, I have kept the standard Tropica Narrow variety in the tank too because I want to grow them out together and see if there is any meaningful difference. So far my theory is that many of the rare small varieties of java fern that exist among collectors and specialized retailers actually grow much larger than they say, its just that many collectors do not use injected CO2, and thus the plants will be significantly smaller in their care, even over long periods of time. I know my Tropica Narrow / Windelow / Trident java ferns were very small when they were growing under suboptimal conditions in low tech. In order to unlock their true size they need enough time to develop in addition to CO2 and decent ferts.
Maybe some of the "small" varieties of java fern will differ in how small they are under suboptimal conditions, with the special collector types becoming extra small, but is that really a good way to compare plants? Maybe for people running low tech. I dont know, and I dont know where im going with this either so ill leave it at this 😁

The random bits of healthy looking N. p Golden have just recently arrived, the emersed windowsill culture is doing so well I was able to harvest some stems and I just plonked them into various locations 🤷‍♀️ The emersed Tonina and Pantanal cultures is coming along, I will be able to harvest from them reasonably soon. I very optimistically hope to have some of the fertilizer issues sorted out first so they get a good start in the tank.




My poor pale Tonina 😢 It seems like this one is doing the worst out of all of the plants. I really want to at least get back to when this one recovered and became green and happy, even if the other plants suffer 😅 I just like this plant a lot.
You can see the Golden above it in the soil cup is not happy, from my experience so far, just like Pantanal, Golden does not like to be moved.
So its too early to tell if its angry just because it got moved into the cup, or what.




Second cryptocoryne corner. Silver Queen continues to put out these sunset colored leaves. They're kinda nice.
The SQ in the middle has Wooki's name on it, its just waiting and growing until it can make its way over to him 😊


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Bolbitis type A has put out a fair amount of new lush leaves, very good size increase for relatively small rhizomes. I have thinned back its neighbors again to allow it good flow.


That looks OK.


Hufsa said:


> Type B is still recovering from the carbonated water treatment, I can see a tiny bit of new green activity but its slow.


Sounds promising. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> The SQ in the middle has Wooki's name on it


----------



## _Maq_

Excuse me if I missed something mentioned earlier within this thread.
I'd like to know basic parameters of your tap water, supposing this is the one you're using, PLUS what is your macro dosing routine, PLUS pH of your aquarium water when dosing CO2.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Excuse me if I missed something mentioned earlier within this thread.
> I'd like to know basic parameters of your tap water, supposing this is the one you're using, PLUS what is your macro dosing routine, PLUS pH of your aquarium water when dosing CO2.


No problem at all, the journal is 36 pages long so I dont blame you for just asking instead of having to comb through a gazillion pages 😄

You are correct I am using tap water. The parameters I get from the water supply report are as follows;

NH4-N + NH3-N <0.040 mg/l
NO3-N    0.319 mg/l
NO2-N    <0.010 mg/l

Cl-    12.5 mg/l
SO4 2-    14.7 mg/l
Na    5.33 mg/l

Fe      0.0123 mg/l
Cu     <0.001 mg/l
Mn     <0.001 mg/l
Ni     0.000794 mg/l
B     <0.01 mg/l
No values reported for Mg, Zn and Mo

The water contains almost no Calcium when it arrives at the water works, but they filter it over marble to raise it to approximately 21g Ca/L. They also add NaOH to raise the PH.

Tap water at my house comes out with 3 KH, 3 GH (consisting solely of Calcium), a PH of 7.1 - 7.3, and a TDS usually between 55-67.
I raise the GH to around 6-7 for the shrimp before adding to tank.
As of lately the final Ca and Mg values of my tank water is Ca 30ppm, Mg 10ppm and 6.5 GH

Current weekly total macro levels (added daily by doser)
13,29 NO3 (3 N)
1,2 PO4 (0,39 P)
4,68 K

Current weekly micro levels (also dosed daily)
0,1 Fe DTPA
0,02 Mn EDTA
0,013 Zn EDTA
0,013 B (From Boric Acid)
0,006 Cu EDTA
0,003 Mo (From Ammonium molybdate)
0,0001 Ni (From Nickel Sulphate)
Plus an additional 0,05 ppm Fe DTPA dosed manually about two times a week, bringing the total weekly Fe up to 0,2

PH of my aquarium water usually sits around 7,2 ( fully degassed) and when I performed a PH profile in April I had a full one degree drop to 6,2.
I havent performed a PH profile lately but I expect it to be somewhere around this area


----------



## _Maq_

One more question: How exactly do you add calcium, magnesium, nitrates etc.? I mean, which compounds? Par example, if you add 13 mg of NO3 in KNO3, then you add 8 mg of potassium, as well. Which is more than you indicate, so you probably use some other compound.
Do I understand correctly that you add as much CO2 as to lower your pH from 7.2 to 6.2?


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> I mean, which compounds?


Oh my mistake, I forgot to list that 
Youre very observant, my source of nitrogen is 50% from Urea and 50% from Potassium Nitrate / KNO3, hence the low K.
Monopotassium phosphate / KH2PO4 is the other part of the macro, not currently using potassium sulphate / K2SO4 at all.

I acidify the mixes with ascorbic acid and preservative potassium sorbate, although my next micro mix will be without ascorbic acid to try to rule out some possible micro interaction.

I remineralize with Calcium sulphate and Magnesium sulphate



_Maq_ said:


> Do I understand correctly that you add as much CO2 as to lower your pH from 7.2 to 6.2?


Yes, that is correct, it may be slightly lower now (0,8~) as I have adjusted the injection after that PH profile.


----------



## _Maq_

I can see several issues:
(1) A source of growth defect may come from incorrect balance between (Na), K, Mg & Ca. I prefer ratio K : Mg : Ca = 1 : 5 : 10 molar, which is approx. 1 : 3 : 10 by weight. However, sodium enters this ratio together with potassium. If I'm correct, then your ratio is (Na+K) : Mg : Ca = 1 : 1 : 3 by weight. Can you see any signs of Ca, and particularly Mg deficiency?

(2) This issue may be exacerbated by using urea, which works basically as ammonia. Ammonia is another cation which is used preferentially to Mg & Ca. (Even before potassium.)

(3) If I assume that you dose weekly 1.7 mg/l KH2PO4, 3.2 mg/l urea, and 10.8 mg/l KNO3, then your P : N ratio is correct, but you're overdosing K. Which is not harmful in itself, but it suggests that you could lower dosing of K and improve your K : Mg : Ca ratio. It's an eternal pity that your water-processing plant adds sodium. I wouldn't expect such an obsolete practice in Norway.
You can use NH4NO3 to lower K easily.

(4) CO2 dosing helps to lower pH, yet it does NOT lower alkalinity. There's one thing people often overlook. Some plants hate high pH because they cannot acquire transition metals (micronutrients). So, you dose CO2, force your pH to 6.2, and believe things are fixed. Not so. Alkalinity is another problem, disabling some physiological processes within the plant itself. So the plant is able to acquire the nutrient, yet unable to USE it.
We lack detailed analysis for which aquarium plants this is valid, unfortunately. My guess is that Tonina fluviatilis and Ludwigia Pantanal belong among them. (Ludwigia glandulosa definitely does.) You can add tons of micronutrients, yet some specie will not be able to live on.

(5) As you surely know, phosphorus and transition metals require reducing environment to be accessible to plants. That's why plants almost solely get these nutrients through roots deeper in the sediment, where conditions are reducing. However, iron will NOT get reduced as long as nitrate is abundant in the substrate. The reason is that nitrate is preferred electron acceptor over ferric iron. Bacteria respire oxygen first, when it's depleted, they respire nitrate, and only after nitrate is in shortage, they respire ferric iron, and the sulfate.
Unfortunately, people listen to Tom Barr and dose incredible (and harmful) amounts of chelated micronutrients. (I suspect most of them end up in filters, but that's another story.)
I never add CO2 to my tanks. I always mineralize from zero, i.e. from reverse osmosis + mixbed water. As such, I've got no experience with the conditions recommended by Barr and similar hi-tech gurus. If I make a tank with acid water, hardness and alkalinity are very low, too. I maintain from 1 to 3 mg/l NO3 equivalent (half NH4 half NO3) in my tanks. I seldom dose any micronutrients, and in tiny amounts at that, and there's no artificial chelator in my house present. (Yes, I follow Marschner.)
In my opinion, micronutrients are an issue only if you make them so when trying to outsmart the nature.


----------



## Hufsa

I thought something in depth might be coming when you asked all those questions 😄
Thank you for sharing your time and experience with me 
Im probably gonna have to take a few days to process all of this completely 😊



_Maq_ said:


> I can see several issues:
> (1) A source of growth defect may come from incorrect balance between (Na), K, Mg & Ca. I prefer ratio K : Mg : Ca = 1 : 5 : 10 molar, which is approx. 1 : 3 : 10 by weight. However, sodium enters this ratio together with potassium. If I'm correct, then your ratio is (Na+K) : Mg : Ca = 1 : 1 : 3 by weight. Can you see any signs of Ca, and particularly Mg deficiency?


When you say growth defect, could you describe or link to what you mean by that? Right now I have an issue with persistent paleness of plants, but recently the Ludwigia palustris 'Super Red' got very stunted and curly new leaves, do you mean either of those problems or something else?
Im not entirely sure how Ca deficiency is supposed to look like, I think some people argue its "not a real thing" or at least exceedingly rare. Therefore I have never paid much attention to it.
Is it small curly new leaves predominantly?
Im a bit cautious to try to diagnose individual deficiencies as so many of them seem to have similar looking symptoms 🤔
I cant see any signs of Magnesium deficiency, and I have dosed more Magnesium occasionally with no difference in the plants, so Magnesium seems unlikely to me



_Maq_ said:


> (2) This issue may be exacerbated by using urea, which works basically as ammonia. Ammonia is another cation which is used preferentially to Mg & Ca. (Even before potassium.)


Interesting. A little while ago when I got started with lean dosing I was using Nitrogen from 82% Urea and 18% Nitrate.
Happi advised me to change to my current 50/50 ratio, I believe to slow down the plants a bit. The amount of potassium was naturally increased when I did this.



_Maq_ said:


> (3) If I assume that you dose weekly 1.7 mg/l KH2PO4, 3.2 mg/l urea, and 10.8 mg/l KNO3, then your P : N ratio is correct, but you're overdosing K. Which is not harmful in itself, but it suggests that you could lower dosing of K and improve your K : Mg : Ca ratio.


I could increase the amount of Urea in order to lower the potassium, but then we might run into your point number 2, hmm



_Maq_ said:


> It's an eternal pity that your water-processing plant adds sodium. I wouldn't expect such an obsolete practice in Norway.


Yeah its annoying for sure, I believe they add it to preserve the water pipes, the maintenance on the water lines is horrible so they would much rather add this than spend money actually maintaining anything.



_Maq_ said:


> You can use NH4NO3 to lower K easily.


Unfortunately this is an illegal substance for laypersons to have now in Norway 😢 Only for registered farmers and businesses with documented need for it.
What about ammonium sulphate, can it be substituted for ammonium nitrate somehow? We would get all that extra sulphate and then the potassium from the KNO3 I suppose?



_Maq_ said:


> (4) CO2 dosing helps to lower pH, yet it does NOT lower alkalinity. There's one thing people often overlook.


Very true



_Maq_ said:


> Some plants hate high pH because they cannot acquire transition metals (micronutrients). So, you dose CO2, force your pH to 6.2, and believe things are fixed. Not so. Alkalinity is another problem, disabling some physiological processes within the plant itself. So the plant is able to acquire the nutrient, yet unable to USE it.
> We lack detailed analysis for which aquarium plants this is valid, unfortunately. My guess is that Tonina fluviatilis and Ludwigia Pantanal belong among them. (Ludwigia glandulosa definitely does.) You can add tons of micronutrients, yet some specie will not be able to live on.


I would *really love* your input on why my Tonina greened up quite rapidly a while back, when I used two following micro mixes;
0,067 Fe
0,033 Mn
0,013 Zn
0,013 B
0,004 Cu
0,000067 Mo
0,000067 Ni
and
0.1 Fe
0.05 Mn
0.02 Zn
0.02 B
0.006 Cu
0.0001 Mo
0.0001 Ni

Details and pictures can be found here, here and a few here
Ive been scratching my head for ages trying to figure out why it liked this but not what im currently dosing



_Maq_ said:


> (5) As you surely know, phosphorus and transition metals require reducing environment to be accessible to plants.


That would be after they have precipitated, they are only available this way, am I understanding that right?
But there is a window of availability (dependent on tank conditions) where they are available in the water column, before they precipitate, or?



_Maq_ said:


> That's why plants almost solely get these nutrients through roots deeper in the sediment, where conditions are reducing. However, iron will NOT get reduced as long as nitrate is abundant in the substrate. The reason is that nitrate is preferred electron acceptor over ferric iron. Bacteria respire oxygen first, when it's depleted, they respire nitrate, and only after nitrate is in shortage, they respire ferric iron, and the sulfate.
> Unfortunately, people listen to Tom Barr and dose incredible (and harmful) amounts of chelated micronutrients. (I suspect most of them end up in filters, but that's another story.)
> I never add CO2 to my tanks. I always mineralize from zero, i.e. from reverse osmosis + mixbed water. As such, I've got no experience with the conditions recommended by Barr and similar hi-tech gurus. If I make a tank with acid water, hardness and alkalinity are very low, too. I maintain from 1 to 3 mg/l NO3 equivalent (half NH4 half NO3) in my tanks. I seldom dose any micronutrients, and in tiny amounts at that, and there's no artificial chelator in my house present. (Yes, I follow Marschner.)


Hmm this bit is going to take a while to process. RO is for sure a very clean slate to start with, but there are some that make their tap water work though?



_Maq_ said:


> In my opinion, micronutrients are an issue only if you make them so when trying to outsmart the nature.


Outsmarting, are you referring to chelates? Do you think I might have better success with non chelated traces then? Or am I misunderstanding it?
I actually have an order of chemicals on the way that includes that, so they will arrive within a few weeks probably


----------



## John q

The truth is out there @Hufsa


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> The truth is out there @Hufsa


Listen here you little...


----------



## Wookii

John q said:


> The truth is out there @Hufsa


----------



## John q

_Maq_ said:


> Not so. Alkalinity is another problem, disabling some physiological processes within the plant itself. So the plant is able to acquire the nutrient, yet unable to USE it.


Hey I like this train of thought.  You seem like an educated guy, please share some insights into these theory's. Tbh...  Sounds to me like an overhang from the toxicity wars...

Joking apart explain to the opp where she's going wrong in layman's terms. Maybe start a journal, I think lots of folks would be interested in your set up.


----------



## Yugang

_Maq_ said:


> I never add CO2 to my tanks. I always mineralize from zero, i.e. from reverse osmosis + mixbed water. As such, I've got no experience with the conditions recommended by Barr and similar hi-tech gurus.



This indeed is a relevant observation, as @Hufsa runs a high tech tank with CO2 injection.

Your post suggests a broad theoretical knowledge of biology and chemistry in the planted tank.  I learned from reading 2 decades of discussions on this and other forums that few theories have been scientifically tested or are universally valid. Could it be that some practices work well in low tech tanks (where plants are CO2 / light limited), but less so in tanks with 20-30 ppm CO2, higher light and turbo charged growth conditions?

It would be helpfull if you could comment on the evidence for the theories you refer to, specifically for high tech tanks. Barr earned his reputation as he demonstrated his methods (less so theories) with evidence from his top class tanks.


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> ...


Deficiency symptoms... huh... that's a broad topic. Well, when it comes to chlorosis, you must distinguish one thing: whether it's most pronounced on new leaves, or on the older ones. Magnesium is a _mobile_ nutrient. When in short supply, the plant takes Mg from older leaves, and moves it to newly created ones. And since Mg is a key component of chlorophyll, older leaves get yellow (and are about to be dropped).
Lack of sulphur, iron, manganese, zinc leads to chlorosis on newly created leaves. Severe deficiency of these nutrients generally leads to rosetting and stunting.
Calcium in dicotyledons is essential for cell wall stability, and is _not_ mobile nutrient. Youngest leaves get wrinkled, deformed. In case of mild deficiency one is likely not to notice unless there's another tank to compare the very same species. Only slightly "wavy" leaves may be due to mild Ca deficiency.

Nitrogen can be obtained as a cation (NH4), or an anion (NO3). And since nitrogen is a nutrient in highest demand by far, it influences acquisition of other nutrients. If you want to support acquisition of metal cations (K, Mg, Ca), you should prefer nitrate over ammonia. Ammonia competes with cations, nitrate competes with anions (Cl-, SO42-). Can you get Mg(NO3)2?

I do not comment dosing micronutrients. They should _not_ be measurable in water column. And in the substrate, they are subject to cycling which depends on many variables. I never try to measure micros. I wait until I suspect deficit occured by deficiency symptoms on plants. Importantly, I _never ever_ dose a mix of all micronutrients. Firstly, they are all toxic, secondly, they are in competitive relationship with each other (except B and Mo), thirdly, a deficit of iron happens most often by far, and iron is a very specific issue, not directly related to other nutrients.
Tonina is a tricky plant. I do not pretend to be consistently successful with it. I've experienced it stunted and failed to figure out why. Yet, most of the time I'm successful. Acidic (<6) and very soft water is the way. In such conditions, very modest amounts of micronutrients (even non-chelated) work without issues.
So, excuse me, I'm not about to comment your micro dosing. I can see that you follow Marschner, and agree with that. Marschner is THE correct source. (By the way, have you read it? I've learned a lot from it.) Yet, like I said, I always dose my micros separately. For iron, I've made myself a citrate chelate, all the others I dose as sulphates or chlorides.


> But there is a window of availability (dependent on tank conditions) where they are available in the water column, before they precipitate, or?


Yes, that's basically the reason for chelating transition metals. I do not deny it may be useful, it's just that I can live without it. If micros precipitate (mostly with phosphates or carbonates) in the substrate (in contrast to the filters), it's not the end of story. Plants, and microbes in particular, can still get it. Microbes bring it everywhere inside their living cells, but they die within hours. They become part of particulate organic matter; lesser part in the water column, larger part in the substrate. Biotic and abiotic transformations follow, and plants' roots actively take part in it.
Generally, with higher pH _and/or_ higher alkalinity matters get more difficult. Some plants (the "easy" ones) are adapted and can manage, others cannot. Instead of keeping one huge tank, I prefer keeping several mid-size tanks with adjusted conditions. (That's why I always mineralize RO water.) In this way, I'm gradually learning which conditions fit best for various species. It's a long run, but a great fun. The bottom line is that I do not force plants to live in conditions which a given species takes as unnatural. Not all plants can be pushed into a single tank, not even with the help of CO2.


> RO is for sure a very clean slate to start with, but there are some that make their tap water work though?


In Europe, tap water is regularly alkaline and rich in carbonates. One way to handle it is CO2 injection. That's relatively simple, and the results are generally fine. But it can't work in _any_ circumstances, and for any species.


> Outsmarting, are you referring to chelates?


Not in particular. I'm referring to CO2 injection, and high doses of fertilizers. Both creates unnatural conditions, and unnatural consequences must be expected and accepted. Like I said, it's not bad and it helps in many cases. Yet you must accept the fact that sometimes... it simply does not deliver.


----------



## _Maq_

John q said:


> Hey I like this train of thought.  You seem like an educated guy, please share some insights into these theory's. Tbh...  Sounds to me like an overhang from the toxicity wars...
> 
> Joking apart explain to the opp where she's going wrong in layman's terms. Maybe start a journal, I think lots of folks would be interested in your set up.


I've learned that from books for farmers.
Some crops and fruit bearing trees hate calcareous soils. Originally, it was assumed that they cannot actively chelate (yes, they exsude chelators) iron in a pH way too high. But then, some researchers analyzed the leaves for elemental composition, and to their surprise they learned that iron was present in sufficient amount. So, they searched for an explanation, and the result is like I said - it's bicarbonates. Frankly, that's the end of my knowledge. I didn't care to keep in my head which enzymatic reactions are disabled and how. For me, an amateur, knowing that high pH is not exactly the same as high bicarbonates is enough to know.


----------



## _Maq_

Yugang said:


> Could it be that some practices work well in low tech tanks (where plants are CO2 / light limited), but less so in tanks with 20-30 ppm CO2, higher light and turbo charged growth conditions?


I think that elevated CO2 level is always beneficial for all plants. Up to 10-12 ppm without reservations. Above that limit, I have my doubts, and it's less efficient anyway.
It's the prevailing practice "not to let CO2 dissipate" which is often harmful, because _lack of oxygen_ is a serious issue, often neglected. I always oxygenate, day and night. 
Another topic is overdosing nutrients. If nitrates are abundant (over 3-5 ppm) the cycling of phosphorus and transition metals (micronutrients) within substrate is hampered. That forces dosing high amounts of phosphates and micros (in chelated form) over and over. They precipitate useless in filters, and accumulate in the substrate. If you happen to fail to dose nitrates for a while, metals precipitated in the substrate may dissolve in huge amounts, toxic to all living creatures in the tank.
Another point of concern (to me) is discrepancy between pH and alkalinity. CO2 injection enables making acidic water in spite of relatively high alkalinity. Par example, you may get pH 6.2 and 2 °dKH at the same time. That's a combination which never occurs in nature. I believe it may be a source of some weird results in some instances.
My philosophy is to study plant physiology, and to follow natural conditions as far as possible. I'm aware that no tank can emulate natural conditions perfectly. Yet as long as I can, I'm trying to avoid unnatural touches. I don't have to inject CO2, so I don't.
I'm aware that most people will keep on doing it, and I can live with that.


----------



## Yugang

_Maq_ said:


> I think that elevated CO2 level is always beneficial for all plants. Up to 10-12 ppm without reservations. Above that limit, I have my doubts, and it's less efficient anyway.
> It's the prevailing practice "not to let CO2 dissipate" which is often harmful, because _lack of oxygen_ is a serious issue, often neglected. I always oxygenate, day and night.
> Another topic is overdosing nutrients. If nitrates are abundant (over 3-5 ppm) the cycling of phosphorus and transition metals (micronutrients) within substrate is hampered. That forces dosing high amounts of phosphates and micros (in chelated form) over and over. They precipitate useless in filters, and accumulate in the substrate. If you happen to fail to dose nitrates for a while, metals precipitated in the substrate may dissolve in huge amounts, toxic to all living creatures in the tank.
> Another point of concern (to me) is discrepancy between pH and alkalinity. CO2 injection enables making acidic water in spite of relatively high alkalinity. Par example, you may get pH 6.2 and 2 °dKH at the same time. That's a combination which never occurs in nature. I believe it may be a source of some weird results in some instances.
> My philosophy is to study plant physiology, and to follow natural conditions as far as possible. I'm aware that no tank can emulate natural conditions perfectly. Yet as long as I can, I'm trying to avoid unnatural touches. I don't have to inject CO2, so I don't.
> I'm aware that most people will keep on doing it, and I can live with that.


I hope we don't hyjack this thread.
May I politely suggest you open a new thread, where you share your tanks and experience?


----------



## _Maq_

I'm a novice here and not much acquainted with the rules and customs. Sorry.
I beg for your patience regarding my own thread. First of all, I'm not sure what to say, I don't know which of my opinions or experience would be regarded of any use within this community. Secondly, I'm currently busy with writing a series of articles for a domestic aquarium magazine. And that's using my own language, not my hazy English...


----------



## Yugang

_Maq_ said:


> I beg for your patience regarding my own thread. First of all, I'm not sure what to say, I don't know which of my opinions or experience would be regarded of any use within this community


Perhaps just a self introduction, as most new members do, with some nice photos and descriptions of your tank?

You have a lot to add to this forum, that is already obvious after your first few posts


----------



## Hufsa

Need to write down a couple of things from today so I have record of it, bear with me 🐻

I finally got my grubby paws on some Fe EDDHA (and Fe Gluconate), and armed with a new target conjured by the cult I set about with making a new batch of micros 😁

Weekly ppms:
0,05 Fe Gluconate
0,025 Fe EDDHA
0,025 Fe DTPA
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,0001 Mo
0,0001 Ni

Yes thats three different sources of iron for my unusually goldilocks-esque plants 

The only source I could find for Fe Gluconate was Seachem's Flourish Iron, so after a bit of moaning and groaning about the price and the idea of buying premade stuff I bought a bottle.
I got a dose to work with from Rotalabutterfly for my weekly target;
To reach your target of 0.05ppm Fe you will need to add 1.3 milliliter Flourish Iron to your 250L aquarium
1.3 milliliter / 7 days = 0.18571428571 milliliter per day
2000 ml total volume in a batch of micros
Divided by 30 ml per dose
=66.6666666667 doses per batch
0.18571428571 milliliter per day x 66.6666666667 doses
= 12.38 ml of Seachem Iron into 2000ml of micro ferts with dose size of 30ml gives 0,05 ppm Fe per week in a 250 liter tank 


Since I am turning over every possible stone trying to get to the bottom of the weird chlorosis thing, I have been considering the pH stability ranges of the chelated traces im using.
Strong chelates dont usually want too low a pH level and the more finicky salts usually want things quite acidic.
Especially if I want to keep the new Fe Gluconate in solution with the rest of the stronger chelates, keeping a watch over pH might be necessary to keep everything in solution and plant available.
A bit of searching turned up this as a rough outline;
Fe Gluc pH 3.5 - 4.5
Fe EDDHA pH 3 - 10
Fe DTPA pH 4.0 – 7.5
Mn EDTA ph 4 – 9
Zn EDTA ph 4 – 9
Cu EDTA ph 4 – 9
B pH ? - 7 (Is literally named Boric _Acid_ so will probably be fine)
Ni pH ? (Is 4.5 itself)
Mo pH ? (Ammonium molybdate is 5-6, Molybdic acid is 2.4-3.4 ish)
One size fits all = pH 4.25 ??? 
EDDHA, DTPA and EDTA ranges are from the manufacturer of the chelates used, so those are guaranteed to be solid info.
Fe Gluconate is from googling and the B, Ni and Mo are a bit more uncertain, and based on me following links around Wikipedia for a while and squinting real hard.

Since Ascorbic Acid is out (see below), I got the green light to proceed with Citric Acid which is apparently less naughty.
Since I dont actually know much about chemistry and I wanted to know how much Citric Acid I would need to lower pH to 4.25, I looked around and found this guide that got me pretty close.
End result: "Use 0.7492g of citric in 2000ml of water to get a pH of 4.25" (Im not 100% sure this was done correctly in hindsight)

Planning done, it was time for potion making 
First off I made new stock solutions for the minor traces.
We havent forgotten about the weird color my first Mo solution turned out, and we have been eyeing Ascorbic acid for a while as it can cause a bit of trouble sometimes, especially with Molybdenum.
This was how the old solutions looked today, they had gotten very yellow from oxidized(?) ascorbic and the Mo solution had turned a light shade suddenly. Not very trustworthy when youre trying to troubleshoot.



Out they went and new ones were made with no acid and no preservative, just clean bottles, distilled water and the salts.
I spent a while cleaning the bottles thoroughly with soap and then boiling water as I didnt want the solutions to be contaminated with bacteria now that they are without preservative.

I had decided to add the Citric Acid first, then Fe Gluconate and then the other traces, which I now would have done a little bit differently, but it worked out ok still.
I calibrated my trusty Hanna pH checker from @KirstyF and measured the pH after every addition.

Started with 1500ml water of the 2000ml total volume, because the stock solutions add a bit and I top off to the correct total at the end
0.5619g Citric pH 2.9 (I only added 3/4 of the Citric Acid calculated by the guide, but I was concerned to see it drop this low, afraid I had wildly overshot my target)
Fe Gluconate pH 3.2 (Flourish Iron is pH 3.5 according to my checker)
Zn EDTA pH 3.3
300ml more of plain RO
Still pH 3.3 (Mild panic)
Mo, Ni and B pH 3.3
Cu EDTA pH 3.3 (Oh dear am I going to have to start this process all over again?)
Mn EDTA pH 3.6
Potassium sorbate pH 4.3 (Woohoo! Not loving that it dipped below 4 at first but at least we are above now?)
FeDTPA pH 4.4
FeEDDHA pH 4.5 (Very strong color, would be very hard to see any precipitate with this in the mix)
Topped up last ml's of RO, pH 4.5 still. More concerned about staying in the right range for Fe Gluconate than x-EDTA when push comes to shove. Decided to carefully adjust down with more Citric.
0.1873 g Citric pH 4.4
0.1g more Citric pH 4.3
0.1g more Citric pH 4.2 (Half of this would have been ideal I think)

Now that I have done this process slightly wrong heres how I think it would be better to do it next time:
Start with water somewhat short of total (room for stock solutions and salts)
Add just a tiny bit of Citric Acid to make it very mildly acidic (wont take much).
Add everything except Citric, Fe Gluconate and Fe EDDHA.
Add the rest of the Citric Acid (0.8992g minus what was added at the start).
Add Fe Gluconate now that the pH is low.
Check for precipitating and other shenanigans. (Note, this procedure is only for this exact recipe, for example if you use Zinc Sulphate instead of Zinc EDTA you would need to modify)
Add Fe EDDHA and now you cant see anything but at least its done 

Any way, new micro mix is set up and ready for tomorrow. No water change to accompany it, im trying to stick to the schedule I have set for the Scutariella treatments because I hate those things so much I want them to die die die permanently and never ever come back

FTS from earlier today to make up for the wordy post


----------



## Yugang

Forgive my overloaded brain reading above @Hufsa , but are you still testing the lean concept? Are you going full in, or is your approach the Norwegian variant?

I am also reading that your water report does not state Mg, and I do not see it mentioned in most of your posts (yes, I need new reading glasses). Could this be related to your observed chlorosis?

Also looking forward one day (know you're less active for a while) if you indeed found the magic potion to fight BBA


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> Forgive my overloaded brain reading above @Hufsa , but are you still testing the lean concept? Are you going full in, or is your approach the Norwegian variant?


Sure am 
Right now im following Happi's advice but I do veer off track sometimes. My final destination is not set and will depend entirely on what the plants tell me



Yugang said:


> I am also reading that your water report does not state Mg, and I do not see it mentioned in most of your posts (yes, I need new reading glasses). Could this be related to your observed chlorosis?


Not mentioned in most posts but its a part of my remineralization  Mg doesn't fit the symptoms since its a mobile nutrient, and I have tried adding more, no change. Have mostly ruled it out


> As of lately the final Ca and Mg values of my tank water is Ca 30ppm, Mg 10ppm and 6.5 GH


Before this my GH value was the same but there was a bit more Ca relative to Mg



Yugang said:


> Also looking forward one day (know you're less active for a while) if you indeed found the magic potion to fight BBA


Will keep you updated 😉


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> This indeed is a relevant observation, as @Hufsa runs a high tech tank with CO2 injection.
> ..... Could it be that some practices work well in low tech tanks (where plants are CO2 / light limited), but less so in tanks with 20-30 ppm CO2, higher light and turbo charged growth conditions?


This is close to what im thinking as well. I find myself wondering if the matter of precise ratios (and all those things) matter more in conditions where, well, "everything is _juust_ right" but there is also very little of everything. If certain setups inherently have very little wiggle room, and therefore getting everything exactly like it should be becomes a critical part of getting it to work at all.
This could theoretically explain why some find ratios to be very important, while some others (with very different setup parameters) dont see the same need or results from ratios.
We should also consider that each setup has different goals, so what "works" is entirely reliant on what the goal happens to be.
I dont want to write more on this subject here as I am afraid my journal will turn into "Lean VS EI" part 3, which I do not want please have mercy



_Maq_ said:


> Calcium in dicotyledons is essential for cell wall stability, and is _not_ mobile nutrient. Youngest leaves get wrinkled, deformed. In case of mild deficiency one is likely not to notice unless there's another tank to compare the very same species. Only slightly "wavy" leaves may be due to mild Ca deficiency.


Thank you for this, I understand a bit better what you mean now



_Maq_ said:


> Nitrogen can be obtained as a cation (NH4), or an anion (NO3). And since nitrogen is a nutrient in highest demand by far, it influences acquisition of other nutrients. If you want to support acquisition of metal cations (K, Mg, Ca), you should prefer nitrate over ammonia. Ammonia competes with cations, nitrate competes with anions (Cl-, SO42-). Can you get Mg(NO3)2?


I have recently acquired both Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Nitrate, so I have a few more options now.
Would using it as a part of a macro fertilizer not add too much Mg? I guess it would depend on the total dosage eh..



_Maq_ said:


> I do not comment dosing micronutrients. They should _not_ be measurable in water column. And in the substrate, they are subject to cycling which depends on many variables. I never try to measure micros. I wait until I suspect deficit occured by deficiency symptoms on plants. Importantly, I _never ever_ dose a mix of all micronutrients. Firstly, they are all toxic, secondly, they are in competitive relationship with each other (except B and Mo), thirdly, a deficit of iron happens most often by far, and iron is a very specific issue, not directly related to other nutrients.


Hmm, I wonder if my setup is not entirely compatible with this particular method you describe.
I did have some success with dosing (for me) record low traces, but not all plants did better in this.
Trying "less, less and less" is still on my list of things to try if our current ideas run out for fixing my chlorosis issue. I have already tried "more, more and more"



_Maq_ said:


> I can see that you follow Marschner, and agree with that. Marschner is THE correct source. (By the way, have you read it? I've learned a lot from it.)


@Happi  gets the credit for introducing us to Marschner, I have read some of it and found it very interesting, however the majority of the publication is still way above my pay-grade and trying to understand it makes me a bit dizzy. I hope as the years go by I will be able to comprehend more and more 



_Maq_ said:


> I'm referring to CO2 injection, and high doses of fertilizers. Both creates unnatural conditions, and unnatural consequences must be expected and accepted. Like I said, it's not bad and it helps in many cases. Yet you must accept the fact that sometimes... it simply does not deliver.


Here I partly disagree, I used to believe that CO2 injection was unnatural, but when I looked up actual biotopes I discovered that some of them do indeed have higher levels of CO2.
Very few seem to have the levels that "nosebleed" high tech tanks run at though, 30ppm++
I would personally like to know more about actual CO2 levels found in nature, because calculated levels using the infamous kh/ph chart arent exactly the most reliable source.
It seems the amount of biotope data is a bit scarce, or maybe I just havent looked well enough.
Either way, this is the reason I have targeted a lower level of CO2 (20ppm) than commonly recommended (30ppm+), because I feel like I dont have enough information.
While injecting CO2 inherently places my fishes at increased risk, I try my very best to mitigate these risks so that my fish live comfortable and safe lives, mere survival is not good enough as a goal in my opinion.



_Maq_ said:


> It's the prevailing practice "not to let CO2 dissipate" which is often harmful, because _lack of oxygen_ is a serious issue, often neglected. I always oxygenate, day and night.


I definitely agree with this, so far I have found that practices to "conserve CO2" often takes away from the safety of the livestock, increasing the risk of critically low oxygen and lethally high CO2. Treating CO2 "as if it is free" is solid advice and I think being generous with the oxygen is the way to go.



_Maq_ said:


> My philosophy is to study plant physiology, and to follow natural conditions as far as possible. I'm aware that no tank can emulate natural conditions perfectly. Yet as long as I can, I'm trying to avoid unnatural touches.


I too like to look at nature to see how things are there and draw inspiration. We should keep in mind though that lush algae-free plant growth is not always the case in nature, and that if we want "unnatural" results we might also have to employ some "unnatural" methods.
As usual I believe things are somewhat confusing and sometimes frustrating shades of gray, where there never will be a clear cut answer for most things.


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> This could theoretically explain why some find ratios to be very important, while some others (with very different setup parameters) dont see the same need or results from ratios.
> We should also consider that each setup has different goals, so what "works" is entirely reliant on what the goal happens to be.


I think CO2 helps to overcome some irregularities in nutrient ratios. But then, such a hi-tech aquarist posts a question: _Why are _*some*_ of my plants showing this or another nutrition defects?_
Not all plants can thrive in the same environment, that's natural. Myself, I made four mid-sized tanks in a row instead of one huge one, and each of them features different mineral composition and thus pH and alkalinity etc. I'm comparing the results. One species in contrasting conditions - what would be the results? I enjoy this approach, it's a fun & enlightenment in one.


Hufsa said:


> I have recently acquired both Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Nitrate, so I have a few more options now.
> Would using it as a part of a macro fertilizer not add too much Mg? I guess it would depend on the total dosage eh..


My formula is K:Mg:Ca = 1:3:10 (by weight). I do not insist it's the only correct one nor the best one. Research still in progress. But it works for me.


Hufsa said:


> @Happi  gets the credit for introducing us to Marschner, I have read some of it and found it very interesting, however the majority of the publication is still way above my pay-grade and trying to understand it makes me a bit dizzy. I hope as the years go by I will be able to comprehend more and more


I'm a layman in this, too. Still, I can read it and pick up a lot of information which I both can understand and can find useful in our hobby.


Hufsa said:


> Here I partly disagree, I used to believe that CO2 injection was unnatural, but when I looked up actual biotopes I discovered that some of them do indeed have higher levels of CO2.


That's correct, BUT! High levels of CO2 are usually a result of high microbial population & its respiration, which in turn is usually a result of high organic carbon. So it's regularly a "high carbon dioxide => low oxygen" situation, which we definitely don't want to happen in our tanks. (That's why I don't like Diana Walstad's approach, besides her scientific incorrectness.)


Hufsa said:


> It seems the amount of biotope data is a bit scarce, or maybe I just havent looked well enough.


To me it seems the problem is that it's often hidden within sources dedicated to a different topic. That's why an obvious Google method often brings meager responses.


Hufsa said:


> Either way, this is the reason I have targeted a lower level of CO2 (20ppm) than commonly recommended (30ppm+), because I feel like I dont have enough information.
> While injecting CO2 inherently places my fishes at increased risk, I try my very best to mitigate these risks so that my fish live comfortable and safe lives, mere survival is not good enough as a goal in my opinion.


Some of my fellow aquarists stick to 10 ppm. Good results and, in my eyes, their tanks look more natural.


Hufsa said:


> I too like to look at nature to see how things are there and draw inspiration. We should keep in mind though that lush algae-free plant growth is not always the case in nature, and that if we want "unnatural" results we might also have to employ some "unnatural" methods.


I've read through a huge amounts of papers on environmental science. I refrain from going into details but there's undisputed connection between anthropogenic eutrophication and algae-dominated waters. Of course, even "healthy" plants are permanently under attack of many parasites and other disturbances. So they don't look like vegetables in our supermarkets. But eutrophication of natural waters is 99 per cent of human making.


----------



## Hufsa

I said I might be absent this summer and here I am, posting several posts a day 
Inspiration is a fickle beast 😅

I just have to share two things I spotted this morning that make me very happy, first, in the center of the picture, look at this triumphant first leaf the Bolbitis Type B has put out!! 😃😃😃
I havent been this stoked about a leaf in forever, but now I know for sure that its going to pull through  Aaah! 😍





Also, I was wondering what all the spiky business in the center of the biggest Cryptocoryne regina "Silver Queen" was. Upon closer examination it turns out it has two spathes on the way! 😄 This makes the second crypt to go bonkers with spathes, the first one was Striolata Mini, which has so far put out three spathes and seems to be considering a fourth.
I wonder what the trigger is for such a flurry of activity? Since the Striolata Mini is so small I thought it was flowering from stress perhaps. But this Silver Queen is pretty big and seems happy enough, so maybe I was wrong about it. Could be the slightly higher temps coupled with more sunlight hitting the tank? 😊 I will take another picture when the spathe opens, I am curious to see how it looks.





Spammer Hufsa out (for now)


----------



## _Maq_

Congratulations, mate. 
Btw. I've noticed that you use quite fine silica sand for a substrate. Same with me. Only the results with crypts are rather different...
Is there _Lysimachia nummularia_ on the first pic to the right?


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Congratulations, mate.
> Btw. I've noticed that you use quite fine silica sand for a substrate. Same with me. Only the results with crypts are rather different...


Very fine sand indeed, the grain size is 0.1-0.5 mm and very comfortable for fish that bury in or sift the substrate. Nice to plant in too. 
If I send you some crypts in the future I will be sure to include a little bag of this HufsaCorp™ Magic Sand*©*, only 299.99 for 100 grams, deal of a lifetime dont you think? 
It is infused with our patented Ineptitude*©* essence*, which for some reason crypts really like! 
*Mixed results with stem plants


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Is there _Lysimachia nummularia_ on the first pic to the right?


Thats Ludwigia sp. "Marilia", quite uncommon stem plant and does look a little bit like L. num, an easy way to tell them apart other than that "Marilia" gets yellower is the very alternate leaves on "Marilia"


----------



## Hufsa

Im starting to believe there may be Cryptocoryne viagra in the water here or something.. 🤨🤔

First I spot a suspiciously green leaf in the cluster of C. Purpurea, turns out the "Queen Vandom" already had its first baby and it was just hiding from me 😅
I cleared out some of the Hydrocotyle verticillata in the foreground and moved the plantlet there, it will be a better place for it to grow out 



The second baby looks like it will come out towards the glass, if im not mistaking the identity of this suspiciously green root




Then I spot some weird lumps on the Striolata "Mini" 
Guess one of the spathes must have gotten pollinated somehow because theres two fruits / seed pods growing! 













If im very very lucky I might be able to propagate this plant 😮


----------



## _Maq_

It's clear that deeper layers of your substrate are full of sulfides, mainly iron sulfide (black coloration). Are you aware of that?


----------



## Hufsa

I can understand why you might think that @_Maq_ , its actually a layer of weakly colored blue green algae or something of that sort. It only grows right up against the glass, and comes off in filmy sheets if i run my finger along the glass. I used to remove it once or twice a year, but I haven't wanted to disturb the crypts that grow nearby this year. The layer has become more intense this year but im just monitoring it to see if it goes away on its own.
Are you adamant that it is iron sulfide?


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Are you adamant that it is iron sulfide?


Well, the cyanobacteria are conspicuously missing in the highest layer of the substrate... and it really looks bible black, though photography may distort coloration, of course.
But I don't find it outright bad, in the first place. It's quite natural. And the crypts obviously like it! (Ooh, how I envy you!)


----------



## Hufsa

I'll pull some of the brownblack stuff up tomorrow where there are no crypts and take a few pictures, we'll take a good look at it. In a few areas it is more like the traditional bluegreen color. 
I keep kuhli loaches that keep the upper 1 centimeter of sand pretty pristine, which may account for the strict cut-off 😊


----------



## jaypeecee

_Maq_ said:


> It's clear that deeper layers of your substrate are full of sulfides, mainly iron sulfide (black coloration). Are you aware of that?


Hi @_Maq_ 

I'm intrigued. How did you arrive at the above conclusion?

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @_Maq_ 

I think I may know the answer to my question and I will gladly explain the reason for this question. But I don't want to 'put words in your mouth', if you're familiar with this expression.

JPC


----------



## _Maq_

jaypeecee said:


> I'm intrigued. How did you arrive at the above conclusion?


Redox cascade. Bacteria respire what's the best available terminal electron acceptor (TEA). 1. oxygen, 2. nitrate, 3. ferric iron, 4. sulfate, 5. methanogenesis. When sulfate is respired, hydrogen sulfide is the result, which readily reacts with present transition metals, mostly iron. Iron sulfide is the source of black colour.


----------



## Hufsa

Took some pictures today, interested to hear what the jury has to say 





Closer up photo taken with flash of some of the sand front, theres a band of green algae at the very top where I think they have found a niche, its close enough to the surface to get ok circulation but still under the sand so the otos cant eat it.
Slightly lower down there are sporadic patches of typical cyanobacteria, although they make up a relatively low portion of the total.
Then below that the majority is occupied by the brownblack thing.
I would be really surprised if this brownblack thing is not something that requires light to survive, otherwise why on earth would it only be in a very thin layer right up against the glass, and not throughout the entirety of the substrate?




I pulled up a flake of it so you can see. Its not very thick, only a milimeter or so. The sand grains closest to the brownblack thing was attached to it like sprinkles on cake icing.




The sand behind it is totally clear although a little dusty, very small particles of matter settles into the substrate over time, even with such fine sand.




A pic from the side of the tank, theres very fine mesh bags filled with pebbles under the sand that is banked in the back, because I didnt want to make the sand too thick.
You can see some colonies of various stuff making their home here.








Whatever the brownblack thing is, the shrimp and snails find it pretty tasty. Do shrimp eat iron sulfide?

I had to go out for a bit and when I got back home again they had eaten all of it 

Im no longer quite convinced its discolored cyano, but its gotta be some other bacteria/algae thing imo.
Let me know what you think @_Maq_ @jaypeecee and anyone else who might know what it is


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi @_Maq_, @Hufsa & Everyone

In our tanks, the species of Cyanobacteria that are sometimes seen are invariably blue-green in colour. And that explains the acronym 'BGA' for Blue-Green Algae. As we now know, it is not an algae, but a form of bacteria. In one of my tanks, I identified this as Oscillatoria, probably O. princeps. Very recently, I discovered that there is a species of Oscillatoria that doesn't need a source of oxygen to flourish. And this is O. limnetica. It can use hydrogen sulphide to photosynthesize. I deduce that this is what is being seen in Hufsa's tank.

JPC


----------



## LMuhlen

I have the same black coat growing in my tank inside the substrate, close to the glass. Sometimes I pull some of it out with my finger and it feels like ciano, maybe a little dried out. My SAEs go crazy with it, they eat it all.


----------



## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> And this is O. limnetica. It uses sulphur instead of oxygen to photosynthesize. I deduce that this is what is being seen in Hufsa's tank.


Hi @_Maq_ , @Hufsa & Everyone

I wrote the above (post #748) before seeing the photo above. Need more time to study this.

JPC


----------



## Hufsa

jaypeecee said:


> Need more time to study this.


Appreciate your help as always JPC 

What makes me doubt that its cyano is that I didnt think shrimp and snails were fond of eating cyano? To be honest I have never had cyanobacteria above the substrate, so I dont have any first hand experience with it. But I have gotten the impression that clean up crews dont really eat the traditional blue green stuff? Would anyone struggle with cyano if the shrimp found it as tasty as this brownblack thing?


----------



## jaypeecee

_Maq_ said:


> When sulfate is respired, hydrogen sulfide is the result


Hi Everyone,

If hydrogen sulphide (H2S) is released, I would expect the classic 'rotten eggs' odour.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hi Everyone,

Time for a break. Back later.

JPC


----------



## _Maq_

@Hufsa , thanks for nice photo-documentation. Now I rather believe it's a bacterial colony, quite possibly sulfate-reducing or sulfide-oxidizing.
Yet one more note: Sometimes when rearranging hardscape, you turn over a stone and its surface is black. But not the sand beneath the stone. From that I deduce that iron sulfide tends to adsorb to such surfaces, but perhaps not iron sulfide itself but bacteria which cause its creation.
As for cyanobacteria, I know from books that not all of them are actually blue-green; very different colours are possible. But don't ask me about details.


jaypeecee said:


> If hydrogen sulphide (H2S) is released, I would expect the classic 'rotten eggs' odour.


Not necessarily, I think. Hydrogen sulfide gets quickly oxidized upon entering oxic layer of the substrate. Apart from that there are bacteria which oxidize H2S or HS-.


----------



## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> To be honest I have never had cyanobacteria above the substrate, so I dont have any first hand experience with it. But I have gotten the impression that clean up crews dont really eat the traditional blue green stuff?


Hi @Hufsa 

Correct. I don't know of any fish, shrimp or snails that eat Oscillatoria - and survive. It's quite something that you've managed to avoid 'BGA'. That tells its own story. I'd be interested in knowing more about your setup(s) in terms of water parameters, use of CO2, filtration, lighting, etc. Perhaps it's the Norwegian water?

JPC


----------



## Hufsa

jaypeecee said:


> Correct. I don't know of any fish, shrimp or snails that eat Oscillatoria - and survive.


That should rule out that then 🤔



jaypeecee said:


> It's quite something that you've managed to avoid 'BGA'. That tells its own story.


Is it? I didnt think it was particularly remarkable to be honest, I thought every aquarist had one or two types of algae that they tend to struggle with, and some they never really see much of.
The ones ive had as my most "faithful companions" are BBA and some thread algae 



jaypeecee said:


> I'd be interested in knowing more about your setup(s) in terms of water parameters, use of CO2, filtration, lighting, etc.


I recently did a little write-up on my water values for Maq, you can find it here.
For the rest you may have to hunt a bit, although maybe it would be cruel of me to send people to read through all my ramblings hunting for useful info 😅



jaypeecee said:


> Perhaps it's the Norwegian water?


Maybe! Although it could just be a side-effect of the Cryptocoryne viagra


----------



## jaypeecee

_Maq_ said:


> Hydrogen sulfide gets quickly oxidized upon entering oxic layer of the substrate


Hi @_Maq_ 

I don't know much about substrates. Is there a distinct oxic layer within the substrate? If there are plants rooted in the substrate, do these not oxidize zones within the substrate?

JPC


----------



## _Maq_

jaypeecee said:


> Is there a distinct oxic layer within the substrate? If there are plants rooted in the substrate, do these not oxidize zones within the substrate?


Oxygen penetrates the substrate only millimeters deep, that's the oxic layer. Beneath is a suboxic layer where bacteria respire nitrate. Beneath that, anoxic layer follows.
Yes, plants oxidize the rhizosphere, but only 1 to 4 mm max around the roots. In that way they create a very important microcosm inhabited by many bacteria. Many essential microbial processes occur near the roots.


----------



## ElleDee

_Maq_ said:


> Oxygen penetrates the substrate only millimeters deep, that's the oxic layer. Beneath is a suboxic layer where bacteria respire nitrate. Beneath that, anoxic layer follows.
> Yes, plants oxidize the rhizosphere, but only 1 to 4 mm max around the roots. In that way they create a very important microcosm inhabited by many bacteria. Many essential microbial processes occur near the roots.


What is the basis for the stated depth of "only millimeters"? Is that supposed to account for differences in substrate, the amount of flow present, and any bioturbation from fauna?


----------



## _Maq_

ElleDee said:


> What is the basis for the stated depth of "only millimeters"?


Science. Scientific papers. Water does not flow in the substrate. Only dissolved substances diffuse.
Yes bioturbation, and other factors may influence it, but not in the orders; it's still millimeters.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Science. Scientific papers. Water does not flow in the substrate. Only dissolved substances diffuse.
> Yes bioturbation, and other factors may influence it, but not in the orders; it's still millimeters.


[Citation needed] 😁


----------



## _Maq_




----------



## Hufsa

Thanks for some more information @_Maq_ , could you share the part where they describe the physical properties of  the sediments studied?
I believe many natural sediments will be more densely packed than our aquarium sediments, as ours usually are composed of an artificially narrow band of grain sizes. This leads to less compaction, which is why some of us, myself included, do not recommend play pit sand for aquarium use as it will compact quite a lot.
I also can't see anywhere in this study where they for example account for gravels or aquasoils with a grain size of 2-3 mm or more. Water circulation in that kind of substrate should be a fair bit more than in my very fine sand.
Basically, based on the sources you have shown me so far I do not think you have sufficient backing to go out as strongly as you have and declare things to always be "x" way.


----------



## _Maq_

Pardon me, I forgot to mention the source. It's not a study, it's a textbook: Fenchel, King, Blackburn - Bacterial Biogeochemistry. The Ecophysiology of Mineral Cycling [2012]. So, if the authors write that oxic zones range from less than 1 mm to 15 cm, it covers many various biotopes.
I do not function as a librarian. I'm sorry, I remember information but tend to forget where and when exactly I've got it. That's why my pronouncements on things which are *solved to me* are straight, while I'm in dire straits to point to the best sources in a minute. I know people are reluctant to admit that their substrate is not oxygenated. I can understand it very well, because I had those feelings myself. Only after reading many papers which over and over repeated the same, I accepted it as a fact. In eutrophic waters (all our tanks are eutrophic) the normal range of oxic zone counts in millimeters.
Do you want me to go through my library and present you with more resources? It would be rather hard job but I'm ready to pass this test of my sincerity.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> So, if the authors write that oxic zones range from less than 1 mm to 15 cm, it covers many various biotopes.


Is it accurate then for you to say that its "only millimeters"? No matter the substrate?



_Maq_ said:


> I do not function as a librarian. I'm sorry, I remember information but tend to forget where and when exactly I've got it.


I understand not having every source memorized, but the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you say "x is always the case" then you should expect and be ready for people to question you on it



_Maq_ said:


> I know people are reluctant to admit that their substrate is not oxygenated. I can understand it very well, because I had those feelings myself.


This isnt what my concern is, my concern is the sweeping statement you made that you made out to sound like it applies universally. Im not the only one who would like to discuss how many millimeters we think various substrates allow for regarding oxygenation.



_Maq_ said:


> Only after reading many papers which over and over repeated the same, I accepted it as a fact. In eutrophic waters (all our tanks are eutrophic) the normal range of oxic zone counts in millimeters.


Again you sweep every tank with all their differences under one. Your source says millimeters to 15 cm [Edit: 20 cm]. How did you determine that all of our substrates fall in the lower range?


----------



## jaypeecee

_Maq_ said:


> I do not comment dosing micronutrients. They should _not_ be measurable in water column.


Hi @_Maq_ 

Dependent on the test method, parameters will range from unmeasurable to measurable. Actual figures would be preferable.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> ...its actually a layer of weakly colored blue green algae or something of that sort



Hi @Hufsa

Yes, "something of that sort" may well be correct! The following resource may help with identification. Take a look at the _Sulphur and Iron Oxidising Bacteria_ section.









						Proteobacteria: The 16 Major Groups Examined [2023]
					

Proteobacteria is the second largest group of bacteria.




					earthlife.net
				




I was particularly interested to read that "_Beggiatoa_ is a filamentous gliding bacterium which oxidises sulphur compounds in a similar way to _Thiobaccillus_. It is commonly found in sulphur springs, sewage works and hydrothermal vents. It can also be found in rotting piles of seaweed and in the rhizosphere of plant roots – in swamps where it lives at the boundary between the aerobic or oxic layer around the roots and the anoxic soil nearby".

JPC


----------



## ElleDee

_Maq_ said:


> Pardon me, I forgot to mention the source. It's not a study, it's a textbook: Fenchel, King, Blackburn - Bacterial Biogeochemistry. The Ecophysiology of Mineral Cycling [2012]. So, if the authors write that oxic zones range from less than 1 mm to 15 cm, it covers many various biotopes.
> I do not function as a librarian. I'm sorry, I remember information but tend to forget where and when exactly I've got it. That's why my pronouncements on things which are *solved to me* are straight, while I'm in dire straits to point to the best sources in a minute. I know people are reluctant to admit that their substrate is not oxygenated. I can understand it very well, because I had those feelings myself. Only after reading many papers which over and over repeated the same, I accepted it as a fact. In eutrophic waters (all our tanks are eutrophic) the normal range of oxic zone counts in millimeters.
> Do you want me to go through my library and present you with more resources? It would be rather hard job but I'm ready to pass this test of my sincerity.


I want to point out that the authors do not say the range of the oxic zone is less than 1 mm to 15 cm, they say it goes to 20 cm or more. 

I found this paper that goes into some details about the different factors that influence that depth in sections 2.1 and 2.2. My read is that if oxygen flux into the soil is largely through molecular diffusion the oxic layer will be very shallow (though sediment porosity is still a factor here, as is noted in 2.2). However, in our aquariums we generally have a constant flow of oxygen rich water at the sediment level, light that penetrates to the substrate to support photosynthesis, and we may have significant bioturbation from livestock.  We also regularly remove organic matter whose decomposition would deplete oxygen, and of course we may have a significant network of plant roots. All of these things work to increase the depth of the oxic layer in ways that are not present in a typical eutrophic lake. 

I don't think any of this is in conflict with the source you posted, btw, this is a disagreement in interpretation.

Do I know how deep Hufsa's oxic layer is? I don't, and I don't particularly care. (I also don't care about the answer in my own tanks absent any particular problems, and obviously I wish Hufsa great success in all her endeavors.) But I don't think we have good evidence that it's extremely shallow in every tank, period.


----------



## John q

Got any intresting pics of your fish or snails @Hufsa ?  😀


----------



## erwin123

I go to journals to see nice photos of planted tanks and cute fish 

I follow this journal closely because of all the cool plants and because Hufsa is growing Ludwigia Pantanal and Ammannia 'Golden' and I want to get as much info as possible how to grow both plants together 🌿🌱🌾


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> Updates are probably going to be a bit sparse from this side for a while


Not easy when you have such a popular journal....  

Sometimes deep discussions, of a more general nature, less specific to a particular journal, may be taken to a separate thread?


----------



## _Maq_

This one is good, though not exactly what I'm searching for, give me some time, please:
Influence of sediment organic enrichment and water alkalinity on growth of aquatic isoetid and elodeid plants


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> This isnt what my concern is, my concern is the sweeping statement you made that you made out to sound like it applies universally. Im not the only one who would like to discuss how many millimeters we think various substrates allow for regarding oxygenation.
> Again you sweep every tank with all their differences under one. Your source says millimeters to 15 cm [Edit: 20 cm]. How did you determine that all of our substrates fall in the lower range?


It so happened that I've made some statements here in a careful fashion to which I've got a response that I preached to the converted. It seems that this is not the case, so pardon me for not anticipating that it would come as a novelty to you. I'm sorry.
Yes, oxygen can reach more than 10 cm into the sediments. It was occasionally observed in deep oceans where oxygen content was low, yet organics so sparse that the sediment oxygen demand (SOD) was near zero.
Bioturbation, porosity of the sediment, flow of the water etc. etc. have only secondary, limited effect on oxygen penetration. SOD is decisive.
In shallow highly productive and densely planted waters the SOD is highest. ALL our tanks are eutrophic by OECD standards, and SOD is high. So, oxygen penetration counts in millimeters.
I'll keep on searching my library for more papers on this topic, and post them here.


----------



## Wookii

_Maq_ said:


> ALL our tanks are eutrophic by OECD standards



Not arguing against you, and I have no real knowledge on this area, but how can our tanks be considered eutrophic whilst the water column spends most of it's time fully saturated with dissolved oxygen? I thought to be eutrophic the BOD from decomposing matter had to be so high that it consumed all oxygen in the water column?

Also with regards to the depth at which dissolved oxygen can penetrate the substrate will surely vary dependent on the substrate type; for example I can see that very fine silver sand might impede the flow of DO enriched water through it, however larger grain aquasoil, and even more so coarser gravel will have much higher water exchange?

We also have to factor in that the substrate in our tanks have a very shallow depth compared to natural bodies of water. We also hold them in a glass box with water temperatures typically higher than room ambient. The glass box will therefore constantly cooling the base of the substrate presumably creating natural convection of water through and out of the substrate that would be much greater than any substrate in a natural body of water where the temperatures remain fairly constant?


----------



## _Maq_

Influence of submerged macrophytes, temperature, and nutrient loading on the development of redox potential around the sediment–water interface in lakes
This paper is significant in that it revealed that positive effects of macrophytes on redox potential can be suppressed by their negative effects in case of 80–100% coverage and total inhabitation of the water column. It shows that in densely planted areas the limit 200 mV (below that limit oxygen is not detectable) is actually ABOVE the water-sediment interface, in some instances. Graphs included.


----------



## _Maq_

Wookii said:


> how can our tanks be considered eutrophic whilst the water column spends most of it's time fully saturated with dissolved oxygen? I thought to be eutrophic the BOD from decomposing matter had to be so high that it consumed all oxygen in the water column?


The pics are taken from Wetzel - Limnology. This is one of the most authoritative resources of our science. There is some development in classification of waters as "good" or "bad", oligotrophic or eutrophic. But the numbers shown in these examples will not change substantially. Note that nitrogen content is given in mg per cubic meter, that's equal to µg per liter (or ppb):





Now, you can classify your tank by yourself.


Wookii said:


> Also with regards to the depth at which dissolved oxygen can penetrate the substrate will surely vary dependent on the substrate type; for example I can see that very fine silver sand might impede the flow of DO enriched water through it, however larger grain aquasoil, and even more so coarser gravel will have much higher water exchange?


Yes, fine silver sand can impede the *flow*. But there's no flow from water column to the sediment unless there's some *force*. Par example, temperature differential. But that's usually of lesser importance. What matters is *diffusion*. The water _does not move_. It's dissolved substances which move according to concentration gradient. That's diffusion.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,
@_Maq_ thank-you, that is an interesting paper.


Wookii said:


> but how can our tanks be considered eutrophic whilst the water column spends most of it's time fully saturated with dissolved oxygen? I thought to be eutrophic the BOD from decomposing matter had to be so high that is consumed all oxygen in the water column?


That would be <"hypertrophic">, but you can get pearling and temporary oxygen saturation even in <"hypertrophic water">.  


dw1305 said:


> I've been surveying, and doing some water quality work, on some of <"Bristol's pond and rivers"> over the last couple of weeks.
> 
> I had an interesting one today. I won't tell you the location, or context, but it was a pond and the water sample had a dissolved oxygen level of 180% (~20oC, 18mg/L DO) and a pH value of pH 10.5........


I like BOD as a measurement, because it gives you a <"nice numerical scale"> for pollution.


> ........ The prime metric in nitrification isn't actually the ammonia concentration, it is the dissolved oxygen level. As you have water with greater amounts of organic pollution its Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) increases, BOD values range from clean water at below 5 mg/l dissolved oxygen up to about 600 mg/L in raw sewage. Water is fully saturated with oxygen at about 10 mg/L, so you can see that you would need to continually add oxygen for nitrification to occur.......


In terms of sediment dynamics, we just don't know what is happening in our tanks and I would guess it is the whole gamut of different options from fairly fully oxygenated through to <"Winogradsky column territory">. I like to run a <"low nutrient system">, but I don't have any figures to quantify exactly what that means. 

Low oxygen levels were also one of the reasons why I wasn't keen on <"Diana Walstad's original premise"> that if you:

don't have water movement,
have a siesta period  and 
have heavy planting
that the C02, from the oxidation of organic matter in the substrate, would accumulate and provide extra CO2 for the plants.


_Maq_ said:


> This paper is significant in that it revealed that positive effects of macrophytes on redox potential can be suppressed by their negative effects in case of 80–100% coverage and total inhabitation of the water column.


The uncertainty about what is happening in the sediment was one of the reasons for mainly talking about what might be happening in the <"rhizosphere"> the zone of fluctuating REDOX values, where exudates from the root will be altering the physical, chemical and microbial composition of the substrate.

In the <"Influence of submerged macrophytes, temperature, and nutrient loading on the development of redox potential around the sediment–water interface in lakes"> it mentions that their experimental plants didn't have much radial oxygen loss.


> .......Radial oxygen release by submerged macrophytes is  considered as an important factor in elevating sediment redox potential (Christensen & Andersen,1996; Wigand et al., 1997); however, it seems that in our simulated ecosystems potential oxygen losses from the roots of  _E. canadensis_  and _P. crispus_ were not able to counteract the restricted water mixing and shading effect, probably due to their poorly developed root systems and limited capacity to transport oxygen into the sediment (Aldridge &Ganf, 2003)......


I'd guess  that if they had used _Cyperus_ spp, <"_Phragmites australis_">, _Nelumbo_ sp. or an <"Amazon Sword"> (_Echinodorus_ spp) etc.  that their findings may have been slightly different.

cheers Darrel


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Is it accurate then for you to say that its "only millimeters"? No matter the substrate?
> I understand not having every source memorized, but the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If you say "x is always the case" then you should expect and be ready for people to question you on it


Lake Malawi. Oligotrophic, well oxygenated water, non-stagnant. Temperature similar to our tanks. Sandy and rocky sediment. Please, read:
1998 Hydrobiologia Oxygen in sediment


----------



## Hufsa

My apologies for the late reply @_Maq_ , I havent had time to look at the papers until now.
I think it could be good to have a clear definition of what you mean when you say "only millimeters". Because a lot of things can technically be measured in millimeters, I am 1840mm tall for instance, but I would not refer to myself in millimeters. I assume when you say "only millimeters" you mean below 1cm, is this correct?



_Maq_ said:


> Lake Malawi. Oligotrophic, well oxygenated water, non-stagnant. Temperature similar to our tanks. Sandy and rocky sediment. Please, read:
> 1998 Hydrobiologia Oxygen in sediment


This one seems the most relevant of the papers you have linked, but still I find we disagree in how applicable this is to our tanks.
Most of our tanks are below 1m depth, I think we will agree on that?
Most of our tanks have a certain amount of flow directed at and passing over the substrate, especially high tech planted tanks where good flow considered necessary to distribute nutrients effectively.
Most of our tanks also have a very specific grain size of substrate, a narrow range of sizes with no smaller particles to fill the gaps, which is intentional to increase the depth of oxygenated layer.
The actual size of the grains vary quite a lot, with one end of the spectrum being for example a river loach or goldfish tank with large gravel. The other end of the spectrum would be the very fine sands like I am using.
If you add the factor of flow over that, for example my tank with fine sand and a lot of flow vs another tank with fine sand and very gentle water movement, it seems pretty obvious there will be variations.
The paper linked by @ElleDee does support this, with substrate makeup, flow, and bioturbation being stated as big factors.
Your sources allow for this variation, and if my assumption of your definition of "only millimeters" is correct, that it means above 1cm, then your sources include findings above this depth.
This one maybe most notably;



I dont know exactly how intense of "wave action" we are talking about here (I assume it was fairly significant), but this is 1 meter depth which is most applicable to our tanks, has more flow than the other sampled locations and now we suddenly see a big jump in oxygenated zone size. If I had to guess then 2,5cm is somewhere in the larger end of the scale in an aquarium, but that would just be guessing so its not really relevant.



_Maq_ said:


> Science. Scientific papers. Water does not flow in the substrate. Only dissolved substances diffuse.
> Yes bioturbation, and other factors may influence it, but not in the orders; it's still millimeters.


2,5cm or 25mm from above is the same thing, one is millimeters one is not, but I got the distinct impression that you were not talking about 25mm when you originally posted.



ElleDee said:


> I found this paper that goes into some details about the different factors that influence that depth in sections 2.1 and 2.2. My read is that if oxygen flux into the soil is largely through molecular diffusion the oxic layer will be very shallow (though sediment porosity is still a factor here, as is noted in 2.2). However, in our aquariums we generally have a constant flow of oxygen rich water at the sediment level, light that penetrates to the substrate to support photosynthesis, and we may have significant bioturbation from livestock.  We also regularly remove organic matter whose decomposition would deplete oxygen, and of course we may have a significant network of plant roots. All of these things work to increase the depth of the oxic layer in ways that are not present in a typical eutrophic lake.


ElleDee sums it up better than me (as usual ). In my case I also have a large amount of sand dwelling snails that make their way through the upper substrate layer on a daily basis.



ElleDee said:


> I don't think any of this is in conflict with the source you posted, btw, this is a disagreement in interpretation.
> 
> Do I know how deep Hufsa's oxic layer is? I don't, and I don't particularly care. (I also don't care about the answer in my own tanks absent any particular problems, and obviously I wish Hufsa great success in all her endeavors.) But I don't think we have good evidence that it's extremely shallow in every tank, period.


I am wondering if we will not be able to reach an agreement on this subject @_Maq_ , which would be okay with me 😊
Just like ElleDee I am not certain how deep the layer in my particular tank is and since I dont have any problems I dont really care about it either.
My main issue is with you placing all aquariums (substrate makeup, flow, bioturbation ++) in one narrow band of oxygenation without seemingly taking into account the factors mentioned.
It could seem that we disagree on how big the influence of said factors would be, where I and some others believe it plays a significant part, and you may (?) believe it plays little enough part to still fall within your definition of "only millimeters".
I think many of us would like more science to rely on, specific to aquariums would be ideal but because there is no money in it, that might be wishful thinking.
My opinion is not all science can directly be applied to our aquariums without taking into account the differences in an artificial system vs a natural one.

I have pretty much said what I wanted to say, so while I welcome the discussion to play out in my journal I will focus mainly on journal updates again if that is alright with everyone


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Just like ElleDee I am not certain how deep the layer in my particular tank is and since I dont have any problems I dont really care about it either.



My previous tank had 12cm substrate that was 10 years old and it also never caused me any problems, despite the fact that I am constantly uprooting plants  to trim and replant, inserting osmocote, and EDDHA-Fe ice cubes.

When I decommissioned the tank and removed the substrate, I didn't notice any rotten egg smell or other strong odour either. I would of course prefer to post this in a separate discussion thread that maybe Maq could start to share his theories on substrate but it seems like its not happening... sorry Hufsa!


----------



## Yugang

erwin123 said:


> My previous tank had 12cm substrate that was 10 years old and it also never caused me any problems, despite the fact that I am constantly uprooting plants  to trim and replant, inserting osmocote, and EDDHA-Fe ice cubes.
> 
> When I decommissioned the tank and removed the substrate, I didn't notice any rotten egg smell or other strong odour either.


Just a warning @erwin123 , is that the start of a small leak on the left?


----------



## erwin123

Yugang said:


> Just a warning @erwin123 , is that the start of a small leak on the left?


no, the leak in this 10-year old tank was at the top right.  had to drain out half the water till my new tank arrived.


----------



## _Maq_

@Hufsa, I'd like to specify that "in millimeters" does not mean up to 1 cm, as I understand it. Let's say up to 3 to 4 cm... Perhaps a cultural difference?
No matter. I think I'll open a thread dedicated to this question. But first, I'll find some more articles on this topic.
Correct, your thread should be dedicated to your tank. And you have apparently no problems with your substrate, be it oxic or anoxic.


----------



## ElleDee

FWIW @_Maq_, this discussion and the readings has deepened my understanding on the topic. I can talk more about that if you start a new thread, but it's been an interesting exchange. I would definitely say that up to 3 or 4 cm is way deeper than I thought you meant, especially given that many substrates aren't that much deeper to begin with, so that alone brings our thinking much closer together.

Looking forward to your next updates as always, @Hufsa!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


dw1305 said:


> I'd guess that if they had used _Cyperus_ spp, <"_Phragmites australis_">, _Nelumbo_ sp. or an <"Amazon Sword"> (_Echinodorus_ spp) etc. that their findings may have been slightly different.


This was a thread with a  _Phragmites_ paper. <"Can a canister filter 'stall'">.


> This is from: Toyama _et al._ (2016) <"Effects of planting _Phragmites...."> Environmental technology", _*37*(4), pp.478-485.
> 
> 
> 
> We examined the effect of planting an emergent aquatic plant (_Phragmites australis_) on nitrogen removal from sediments using a 42-d pot experiment. The experimental pot systems comprised two types of sediments planted with and without young _P. australis_. Total nitrogen (total N), total dissolved N, and NH4–N in the sediments decreased markedly after planting. In contrast, those levels decreased only slightly in the unplanted sediments. The decrease in total N in the _P. australis-_planted sediments was 7–20 times those in the unplanted sediments. *Abundances of bacterial 16S rRNA, archaeal 16S rRNA, ammonia-oxidizing bacterial ammonia monooxygenase (amoA), ammonia-oxidizing archaeal amoA, and denitrifying bacterial nitrite reductase (nirK) genes increased significantly in sediments after planting. Phragmites australis appears to have released oxygen and created a repeating cycle of oxidizing and reducing conditions in the sediments. These conditions should promote mineralization of organic N, nitrification, and denitrification in the sediments.*
Click to expand...

This demonstrates the synergistic plant / microbe effect and also quantifies why it so important.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

Its not all algae outbreaks this summer, the cryptocoryne madness continues and today "Silver Queen" (EDIT: Yujii) opened its first spathe 😊
It has a second spathe on the way, and the smaller specimen of "Silver Queen" is also sending out a spathe.
I am convinced there must have been an environmental trigger to have this many crypts flower at the same time 
The plant thought it was funny and opened towards the back wall, making the opening very hard to photograph. I had to reach in and rotate the whole plant a bit.











Will be back soon-ish with proper update


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> "Silver Queen" opened its first spathe


I couldnt really get my crypts spathe to match up with the spathe of Cryptocoryne regina, which I understand is the species name for the trade name "Silver Queen".
Ive asked around a bit for an ID and the consensus seems to be that my plant is Cryptocoryne yujii 😃 How exciting, I had hardly even heard this species name before!

I love having correct ID's on things so im very pleased that my cryptocorynes are being so cooperative 😄 
Now if only the countless varieties of Bucephalandra would take note and get their act together.. 🙄🤭 Wouldnt it be so much more convenient if they also had visually different "flowers" instead of their generic and unhelpful warm white 🙃

@Wookii I hope you dont mind your-plant-to-be has turned out to be something else 😊 Whats one more shiny precious to add to the collection anyway 😅


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I couldnt really get my crypts spathe to match up with the spathe of Cryptocoryne regina, which I understand is the species name for the trade name "Silver Queen".
> Ive asked around a bit for an ID and the consensus seems to be that my plant is Cryptocoryne yujii 😃 How exciting, I had hardly even heard this species name before!



That is strange, the leaves certainly don't look like images I have seen of Crypt Yujii, and certainly look closer to those of "Silver Queen", but I guess thats the issue of ID'ing by leaves, they can vary so much depending on prevailing conditions.

Yujii is a lot more commonly available that 'Silver Queen', as it's available commercially in tissue culture form, but it's certainly another nice 'precious' to add to the collection!


----------



## Hufsa

Alright so this will probably be a slightly confusing update, but im having a bit of trouble keeping track of what im writing in private messages and what is being written in my journal. 
I'll try to get everything back up to date here, with the possible risk of repeating a few things, but ah well.
The majority of the details and background discussions around the lean dosing approach that im trying out for my tank has for a few reasons been moved to private messages. 
I still think this is a shame and would like everything to be available for everyone to read, but I guess it wasnt meant to be at that point.
So being the way it is my journal gets sort of the end results of the discussions with what I actually end up trying for my tank.





The short of it going almost two months(?) back:

The plants were doing better and better on whatever the recipe was that I dosed _*before*_ the latest micro with EDDHA. This was when I was adding Fe DTPA separately a couple of times a week in addition to ~whatever micro mix.
So basically it seemed like the plants were liking having the iron higher than everything else, and going over 0.1 Fe total that way.
The Super Red and Rotalas had unstunted / restarted tops on their own, and were growing normally again without any changes done by me.

A week into using the EDDHA mix I saw a decrease in the slimy green thread algae, and it remained only on Ludwigia Cuba and the Stargrass. It seems to particularly attack plants who are not doing so well.

Right after this I had an incident with the sand snails. I had been gradually trying out a Salicylic acid based algae remedy, and adding partial doses spread out over several days.
That week I was up to adding half a dose at a time, and with a few days apart I had dosed the full dose as per the bottle.
The very next morning the sand snail species that I have (I think its a Thiara sp.) were all laying motionless on top of the sand in the hundreds.
The cause was pretty obvious, so I fished out as many snails as I could get to and placed them in fresh water from the tap. I had the hope that they would recover in fresh water, but either way I didnt want hundreds of snails potentially dying in my tank causing a huge ammonia spike. I got out many of them but couldnt get to the ones in the back without ripping out all the plants.
I then changed a large amount of water to help the remaining snails in the tank hidden in the plants.
A change of water or two was apparently all that was needed, as the absolute majority of the snails recovered from the ordeal and went back to their usual business.

Parts of the snail population being returned to the tank;
Normally only a small fraction of the total population is visible in the tank at any one time.




No change in tank balance was detected, although I didnt test anything as I have mostly stopped testing my tank water in general.
None of the other species of snails (like small Planorbis sp. and Physa sp.) were affected at all, and newborn shrimp, adult shrimp and fish were totally normal in behavior.
Based on this I believe that sand snails or my particular species of sand snail may be particularly sensitive to Salicylic acid or this specific algae remedy (Happy Life Algin Regular).
I would strongly advise anyone whos starting use of such a treatment to pay very close attention to their sand dwelling snails.

I havent added any of this remedy since, but I would like to retry in the future with staying at a lower dose, to see if it can still help against the slimy thread algae.

At the same time I saw that results using only the new EDDHA micro mix and no additional iron was not good. The plants had gotten quite dramatically more chlorotic over just a few days. 
I didnt take a ton of pictures as I was a bit busy with real life and a kitchen full of snails, but here are the few I took:

For once this washing out of the tops is not due to the light but actually chlorosis and pretty distinct.




Very pale beige Hygrophila polysperma and pure white Stargrass.












Pictures taken during a water change because this is apparently the only time I take photos any more 🤷‍♀️

Almost out of shot below is a stem of Pantanal, it was fairly happy less angry growing in the pot of some Aquasoil. Suggests it might be happier with slightly higher dosing, although me leaving it alone seems to be priority number one.
Interestingly the pedicellata Golden that grows in the same pot is just as unhappy and stunted as its brothers in the sand. Might suggest that something about my water column is not to its liking and adding Aquasoil at its roots is not enough to overcome this.
Also, beautiful sunset colored leaves on what I now know is Cryptocoryne yujii here in this picture 🥰




Tonina ironically quite happy despite all the other plants being sad. I think this plant is some sort of sadomasochist.




Very possible contributing factor to chlorosis, a bunch of emersed plants had moved into the tank in preparation for my vacation, to decrease the amount of plants the petsitter had to look after.
Speaking of possible contributing factors, I can not discount that earlier decrease in thread algae could have been influenced by the Salicylic acid. 
Although I still believe plant health plays a major role in whether the slimy thread algae attaches to the plants or not, based on the patterns I have observed.




Due to the chlorosis I increased the overall dose of the EDDHA micro mix to 0.2 and left for my vacation.
When I got back I had a metric ton of slimy thread algae and pink water.

Partially unrelated; this picture turned out kinda cool with the unusual perspective, I was twisting around all over the place trying to get a photo of the C. yujii spathe, until I gave up and rotated the whole plant. Note the pink water.




0.2 Fe EDDHA per week is definitely too much for this setup. (For those not in the know, Fe EDDHA is strongly colored and will turn your water pink at higher doses)
So that was obviously not going to work. I reduced the dosing back to 0.1, pulled out about a solid liter of slimy thread algae, and performed a large water change.

Finally we are up to date with the latest pictures being these two from yesterday (of course also taken during a water change)








As you can see the plants have mostly improved again under the 0.2 EDDHA micro mix, although the slimy thread algae is pretty intense as well. 
Im not sure whether I should interpret the increase in green thread algae as an overall improvement in growing conditions for plants, as green algae is closely related to plants, 
OR if I should think the increase in green thread algae as a decrease in plant health, as the slimy kind of thread algae seems to directly attach to and go for plants who are struggling for whatever reason.
So far my mind is at least 2/3 with the latter.
Right now the green thread algae is growing from almost (but not quite) all of the plant species in the tank.

Super Red has stunted again and being unable to recover the main growing tip has sprouted two new sideshoots on every stem. Still unsure what is causing this.
Pantanal hit the surface, was cut in half and replanted, awaiting massive temper tantrum shortly.

Will see if I can grab a few more pics tomorrow.

Plan going forward is 0.1 Fe using the EDDHA micro mix, and then adding additional iron DTPA a few times a week on top of this, as the plants seemed to like it last time. 
Going to try a total Fe of 0.2 weekly, but will try 0.3 shortly if it doesnt give me the results im looking for.
Also just getting back to regular maintenance of the tank, I have cleaned both filters which was overdue, and just get everything back in good shape and keep up with regular water changes.
I have evicted half of the emersed houseplants from the tank, so that should ease some of the nutrient demand.
I have reduced macro dose to 2 N (proxy) weekly because of this, and will monitor for nitrogen deficiency.

The big Crypt yujii has already got spathe number 2 and 3 on the way, and her little sister is working on her first spathe too. 
Ill share photos of them when they open as I think they are quite beautiful with the white and purple, almost like having actual flowers underwater 🥰

Hope everyone is having a nice summer


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> The majority of the details and background discussions around the lean dosing approach that im trying out for my tank has for a few reasons been moved to private messages.
> I still think this is a shame and would like everything to be available for everyone to read, but I guess it wasnt meant to be at that point


I  feel a bit sad reading this. For the enthusiasts searching for new ways, for the progress in the hobby and for us all making UKAPS what it should be.


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Almost out of shot below is a stem of Pantanal, it was fairly happy less angry growing in the pot of some Aquasoil. Suggests it might be happier with slightly higher dosing, although me leaving it alone seems to be priority number one.
> Interestingly the pedicellata Golden that grows in the same pot is just as unhappy and stunted as its brothers in the sand. Might suggest that something about my water column is not to its liking and adding Aquasoil at its roots is not enough to overcome this.
> Also, beautiful sunset colored leaves on what I now know is Cryptocoryne yujii here in this picture 🥰


As a member of the Patnanal and Pedicatella growers club, I would like to encourage you to keep trying! There is progress with the Pantanal in Aquasoil so thats great!

For Pedicatella, my working hypothesis, based on info from other local growers is that it doesn't like high K dosing. In addition, Plantnoobdude has stated in his journal that he is dosing 2ppm K  so thats really lean where K is concerned....
Its entirely possible the K requirement is a myth that but thats what experiments are for. My weekly K dosing is now at about 3.5ppm per week (from APT EI/Tropica Specialised).


----------



## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> As a member of the Patnanal and Pedicatella growers club, I would like to encourage you to keep trying! There is progress with the Pantanal in Aquasoil so thats great!


Im definitely going to keep trying, im nothing if not stubborn 😁



erwin123 said:


> For Pedicatella, my working hypothesis, based on info from other local growers is that it doesn't like high K dosing. In addition, Plantnoobdude has stated in his journal that he is dosing 2ppm K  so thats really lean where K is concerned....
> Its entirely possible the K requirement is a myth that but thats what experiments are for. My weekly K dosing is now at about 3.5ppm per week (from APT EI/Tropica Specialised).


Interesting!

Unfortunately, due to an accident with the "sun lazor beam blast" that comes through my kitchen window in the evening, I have _ahem_ somewhat cooked my backup supply of Golden.
Its not entirely dead but its struggling to recover and even if it makes it, I wont be able to harvest new shoots from it for a while.
So for now I am depending on the stems I have in my tank, which arent growing much.

Once things settle down a little bit in my tank I could try "just" reducing K, or technically it would be increasing the Urea to Nitrate ratio, therefore lowering K from KNO3.

Ive also heard that it likes good levels of Mg, although how much was not specified.

I am curious about the fertilizer called Masterline All In One Golden, which was apparently formulated for difficult plants and therefore named after the pedicellata Golden (I dont remember where I read this).
It says they recommend dosing it daily, and that it contains elements in multiple forms, so I would guess that they contain a percentage of lightly chelated elements that are more easy to uptake.
I have worked the numbers a bit in my notes and this below should be what they recommend dosing weekly:

N    1.89 (NO3 8.4)
P    0.46 (PO4 1.4)
K    5.25
Mg    1.4

Fe    0.49
Mn    0.16
B    0.093
Zn    0.11
Cu    0.02
Mo    0.013

What stands out to me is relatively modest N, decent P, not super low K (higher than my current dose), and a decent addition of Mg (this may be for tap water users who dont remineralize).
Also note the high Fe (almost 0.5) coupled with not quite as high other micros

What do you make of it @erwin123 ?


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Im definitely going to keep trying, im nothing if not stubborn 😁
> 
> 
> Interesting!
> 
> Unfortunately, due to an accident with the "sun lazor beam blast" that comes through my kitchen window in the evening, I have _ahem_ somewhat cooked my backup supply of Golden.
> Its not entirely dead but its struggling to recover and even if it makes it, I wont be able to harvest new shoots from it for a while.
> So for now I am depending on the stems I have in my tank, which arent growing much.
> 
> Once things settle down a little bit in my tank I could try "just" reducing K, or technically it would be increasing the Urea to Nitrate ratio, therefore lowering K from KNO3.
> 
> Ive also heard that it likes good levels of Mg, although how much was not specified.
> 
> I am curious about the fertilizer called Masterline All In One Golden, which was apparently formulated for difficult plants and therefore named after the pedicellata Golden (I dont remember where I read this).
> It says they recommend dosing it daily, and that it contains elements in multiple forms, so I would guess that they contain a percentage of lightly chelated elements that are more easy to uptake.
> I have worked the numbers a bit in my notes and this below should be what they recommend dosing weekly:
> 
> N    1.89 (NO3 8.4)
> P    0.46 (PO4 1.4)
> K    5.25
> Mg    1.4
> 
> Fe    0.49
> Mn    0.16
> B    0.093
> Zn    0.11
> Cu    0.02
> Mo    0.013
> 
> What stands out to me is relatively modest N, decent P, not super low K (higher than my current dose), and a decent addition of Mg (this may be for tap water users who dont remineralize).
> Also note the high Fe (almost 0.5) coupled with not quite as high other micros
> 
> What do you make of it @erwin123 ?




Ammannia Pedicatella is a one of a kind plant in terms of fert requirements it seems.  The user above (if you check out his instagram you can see he's a follower of Dennis Wong, and even then, he is using "Tropica Levels" for this particular plant and not APT Complete "Levels"... heresy!

My current water parameters are also probably just marginal for Pedicatella, GH6, TDS 120.... but hey, my Macrandra seem relatively happy, and its reputedly a softwater plant...


----------



## Hufsa

I took lotsa photos for you guys today, hold on to your hats 🤠
It will be nice to have a proper baseline of plant photos to compare things to again, the past few months have been a little bit spotty in documentation 🤭 and that made it hard to get a good idea of what was going on. Its not like I can remember any of it 🥴





Ive done a fair bit of trimming since I came home, so things might not look super lush at the moment, but a few plants really needed it.
Also moved a few plants around, im slowly starting to regain some open space in the tank, and it feels really good, and looks so much better than having something in every single available area.

Ive brutally removed loads of huge leaves from the Spiralis Red, I sort of knew this was one of the bigger crypt species, but I guess I failed to realize exactly how big.
I want to see if I can make it slightly less happy by removing some leaves and see if it will put out some medium sized ones. Worth a try anyway eh.
This kind of thing is really a luxury problem of CO2-injected tanks, suddenly some plants are _VERY_ happy and youre wondering if you could make them a little bit less happy/vigorous while still maintaining good form.

Im having a problem of the same sort with Sagittaria subulata, its very easy going and thinks conditions are pretty sweet regardless of the minor issues that bother some of the drama queen stems.
I have somehow triggered it to convert to the tall growing form, and in addition to growing leaves that are much longer than I would like, it sends naughty runners absolutely everywhere and its a fair bit of work sussing them out and removing them before the runners have already had runners of their own and suddenly Sag is appearing halfway across the tank and how did you even get there!?
I pulled out the whole bunch yesterday, kept only a few rosettes which I trimmed the roots short on (hoping they will be sad and stay there for just a little while), and im also hoping I can persuade them somehow to be short again. Ive seen two reasons cited as the cause of this change in length, one is crowding and one is light.
When they started putting out long leaves they were crammed in tightly on the left side of the tank and partially shaded by some epiphytes, so thats 2/2 I guess.
Having moved to the right side, they now get lots of light, but the long leaves continue to come.
So sparse group it is. If that doesnt work I will try replanting the group with only runners, and throw away the original rosettes, but I dont think it will work.
Its a really nice little plant though, it has a wide grassy texture which is a bit lacking in my tank, and a very nice solid lime green color that contrasts well with other green plants.
My SO likes it as well, which you all probably know gives the thing in question an automatic +1 bonus point 
Maybe I can bury a small cup in the area and that will keep those pesky runners inside the group.. 🤔




The left hand crypt corner isnt quite as crazy as the right one, but the "Queen Vandom" has still been quite busy, as I now suddenly have three daughter plants.
She seems to be prioritizing propagation over growth, right now she only has three leaves but its possible I accidentally broke the fourth off the other day while I was pulling out Hydrocotyle verticillata  I think the latter might do better on the right side of the tank, its a bit leggy due to the light and I constantly have to trim it back to make sure it doesnt infringe on my precious crypts.
In the center of the picture you can see Cryptocoryne ferruginea, I bought one plant but the leaves gradually wilted on the main plant and three shoots came up instead. The growth has been very slow so far, but the starting plant mass was super small and I think it is still establishing itself. Only time will tell if it will stay this slow.
Crypts are really starting to grow on me, I find it ironic as I shied away from this family for so many years thinking they wouldnt like me very much 
But now theres babies and spathes and fruits all over the place 😄




Buce "corner", biggest leaf in the center is the Dark Achilles, which is really putting on mass. Many of the Buces sulked for a while back when I was trying to trim off leaves with BBA, but have slowly recovered now that I let them grow undisturbed. In the back left you can sort of see Silver Grey and Pearl Grey who has also put out some very large leaves.
My experience so far is that its not a good idea to trim Buce leaves unless youre really really sure that algae is no longer growing in the tank.
Otherwise your trimming will soon outpace the Buces growth and the plant will suffer for it.




Bolbitis Type B is doing really good, theres only two rhizomes left, the other ones didnt make it through my unkind welcoming treatment.
There were three rhizomes but I accidentally pulled one loose trying to grab some thread algae a while ago, and the third has been sitting forgotten in a cup in the kitchen somewhere, waiting forever for me to bother gluing it back on again 
But the two in the tank are doing well and putting out leaves like champions 

Bolbitis Type A still doing great;




As you can see the BBA is back again for now, I wonder what caused it to die off earlier?
Ill have a rummage through the journal, see if I can discern anything.




Second cup of Aquasoil, with five baby Pantanal stems from the windowsill.
Let the Anger Games begin 




The stem that hit the surface and got replanted is, unsurprisingly to anyone, really angry now.
The plant width / leaf length is possibly the best width ive had on Pantanal so far, so that is pretty nice.
I feel like its slowly inching closer and closer to something decent.




Tonina is happier and decently green, the long stalk got divided today and got a few friends from the windowsill.
Not bothering with Aquasoil for this, Tonina doesnt seem to care much and hardly puts out roots anyway.




Second spathe of Yujii, not opened yet but seems like this also will open towards the back 
The mossy rock in the background is the "Troll Moss" that I found in some local stream, and aside from a bit of BBA its growing really well.
I have a bunch more of it propagating in the kitchen, planning to send some over to the UK when I get the chance 




The Cryptocoryne striolata "Tiger" is up to something, it has what looks like tiny offshoots around its base, theres two on this side in the picture and another one obscured by a leaf.
Call me crazy but I think it might be making a few more Tigers for me 




Seed pods / fruits on Striolata Mini are still closed, and when I poked the oldest one it felt very firm and not dead still, so im just leaving them and seeing what happens.
They are the two dark blobs in the picture, the brighter thing between them is the remnant of an old spathe, I think ive lost count on how many it has put out now, the spathe its currently sending out might be number 5, and I see another tail coming up to the left 


Stargrass is the greenest I think ive had it in a long time, I think we're really close to a chlorosis-free tank!




Cuba is a bit pale but it grows a lot slower than the Stargrass, so I think it will come around, might need just a touch more iron to make everyone happy.







Rotala rotundifolia "Orange Juice" is looking really beautiful, getting very close to how I want it to look now.
I have been gradually* increasing the light output of both Fluvals, and the OJ has responded in kind.
(*Hufsa-Gradually, not to be confused with ordinary gradually)

Is increasing the light a good idea when youre struggling with green thread algae? Absolutely not. Am I doing it anyway? You bet I am!
It reminds me of a doctor I used to go to, he had a sign hanging prominently in his office that looked like this;





Contrary to what you might believe he was actually a great doctor 
So im increasing the light intensity because I have the irresistible urge to do stupid things faster with more energy 😁
Its like trying to repair your car engine while accelerating wildly down the highway 

Yeehaw!


----------



## Yugang

Perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree here @Hufsa , but do I notice that from time to time you are adjusting the direction of your spray bar? Seems to be pointing more upwards now, perhaps to have more agitation and cooling during the heatwave?

Admittely, a bit obsessed with CO2 stability, and learning again how much impact the flow in the tank has on day to day variations. I am just curious if your CO2 may be varying more than you like, after adjustment of your spray bar and surface agitation?


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> Seems to be pointing more upwards now


 Is it!? Its not supposed to for sure, thanks for pointing it out!
I had to shuffle it around slightly when I cleaned the pipes on the left side filter, so maybe I didn't put it back exactly the same.
Im definitely trying to keep CO2 as consistent as possible, but its been hard when ive got the fans running for periods of the day, the temperature swings a bit and the evaporation is very hard to keep up with without a lid on.
But having the spray bar the same is the least I could do. Ill take another look at it tomorrow, I think im due for another PH profile also.
Maybe I can find some way to put it back exactly the same every time 🤔


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> I think im due for another PH profile also.


Yes, that's what we usually do and recommend. I am recently more concerned with day- to-day and week-to-week stability, realising that only 0.3 pH (hardly visible on drop checker) represents 50% variation of CO2 ppm. I learn that tiny details in the (surface) flow pattern can have a significant impact on CO2 in the tank. From my observations, perhaps confirmed by others, it seems that for exampe Wallichi stunts each time I adjust CO2, and then has to recover from new sideshoots. So I am now watching my water flow very closely.


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> I took lotsa photos for you guys today, hold on to your hats 🤠
> It will be nice to have a proper baseline of plant photos to compare things to again, the past few months have been a little bit spotty in documentation 🤭 and that made it hard to get a good idea of what was going on. Its not like I can remember any of it 🥴


Overall the  tank is looking good!  I like the contrasts of shadow and light in your photo.  The dark shadows on the left side remind me of:


----------



## Hufsa

I got a few new friends today 😊🦐





Ive been thinking about trying Caridina shrimp for a while, but havent pulled the trigger until now for various reasons.
I tried them years ago when I was young and didnt have success with them long term, but I would like to think my knowledge is slightly better now and my tank is definitely a more stable system compared to back then.
My water parameters teeter sort of on the edge between Neocaridina and Caridina water, and my thought was if a few initial scouts do well and breed then I could sell my population of Neocaridina and move to only Caridina. This would allow me to use less remineralizer / have a lower GH and they come in really neat patterns and colors that can be mixed without the population turning brown.

So when we were at the pet store today and I spotted some decently colored Bee shrimp for an ok-ish price, I took 5 little critters home with me 😊
The colors and price on privately bred Caridina are much better, but they are never sold in groups less than 10, and I didnt want to spend a lot of money on a trial group when im not sure if they will thrive.
I hope I managed to get one male, I found it a little bit hard to tell in the store, but we shall see.




This is the one I hope is a boy. It has a less curved belly than the others, but the top antennae arent super long so I might have goofed and gotten all girls.
Ah well, worst case I would have to go back and buy another.


Will do another round of plant pictures on sunday, that is the plan at least.
Hope I can get a few good shots of the new arrivals in the tank too, right now they are still getting acclimatized and I didnt want to stress them out with bright light 
I found it super useful to have wifi plugs on my CO2 solenoid, because when I decided to buy the shrimp I could just pull up my phone and remotely turn the gas injection in my tank off.
Tested the ph when I got home and it had already risen almost back to baseline. Very handy 
Wouldnt want to shock these guys with the CO2 😊


----------



## KirstyF

They’re so pretty 🤩 

Lots of good news in the tank too. Looks like things are starting to come around. 

The perfect time to blast it with photons of course! Wouldn’t want you getting bored! 😂 👍


----------



## jaypeecee

Hufsa said:


> As you can see the BBA is back again for now, I wonder what caused it to die off earlier?


Hi @Hufsa 

Perhaps water flow rate was reduced? Or, did the pH lower and/or water hardness lower?

JPC


----------



## _Maq_

@erwin123 , @Hufsa 
Guys, perhaps you could start a new thread dedicated to _Ammannia pedicellata_ Golden. It's rather new cultivar, it seems to me. I have it for a month now, in-vitro plants, still small but growing. We could share our experience each other plus others within this forum.


----------



## Hufsa

Monday update with sunday pictures, Ive been feeling a bit under the weather again so I didnt have the energy to write up a post yesterday, sorry about the delay

Ive kept the plant health pictures full size as I know @Happi  likes to zoom in real close 


Spoiler: CSI Style














Leading with the FTS, sorry about the reflection its just who can even be bothered with those curtains for one picture 🤷‍♀️
I upped the CO2 a bit, I think I am hitting around 30ppm at the moment, didnt do that ph profile yet but took an end day ph measurement that came to 6.2, so should be a full 1.0 drop.
My critters dont seem to care one bit, but the plants have been pearling earlier and more.
Drop checker liquid in this picture is the weak-sauce one from CO2Art that I tried pimping with a few drops of bromothymol blue solution. It helped a bit I guess, but I think I need to make a mix from scratch to get one with proper color saturation.




Second spathe of Yujii opened up, the right way this time  One of my new friends was checking it out




The bee shrimp are really visible when out and about in the tank, I have a special fondness for the boldly red and white striped type, they remind me of candy




Having some flowering on the Buces now too, Brownie Blue finished its flowering a while ago, this variety seems to flower easily. But I was suprised to see Blue Green and Pearl Gray (I think) is sending up flowers now too. Do you guys reckon its because of the photon torpedo shenanigans ive been doing?

Assorted plant health pictures attached below;
Chlorosis has overall increased again. 
My gut instinct is saying accumulation might be a key factor in play as of late.
In periods this summer I have changed less water, and it feels like maybe the plants did better after 2-3 weeks with no WC? 
I need to reread the past few months of my journal and check it with calendar notes about water changes, I just havent had the energy to do so yet.
If accumulation has helped then that means the next direction to go in / test would be increased amounts

I would like to hear what you all think I should do next, would like to hear from everyone as long as no arguments break out


----------



## _Maq_

Magnesium deficiency is more pronounced on well-illuminated parts of the plant.
Plants react to increased CO2 supply by down-regulating chlorophyll formation, while anthocyan levels remain the same (that's why the plants' leaves are red).
Curled top leaves may be a sign of Ca deficiency, but also B, Cu, Mo, Ni. (The latter two I consider very unlikely.)


Hufsa said:


> I would *really love* your input on why my Tonina greened up quite rapidly a while back, when I used two following micro mixes;


The difference seems to be in higher Mn share. Lack of Mn can be mistaken for lack of Mg or Fe. There are also competitive relations among many (micro)nutrients. If you dose a *mix* of micros, the risk of competition is probably increased.
I still believe that you should count your Na content as quasi-K, and adjust your ratio (Na+K) : Mg : Ca closer to 1 : 3 : 10 (by weight).
In the past, I sometimes faced the problem of whitening leaves best illuminated approaching the surface. I can't say I've solved the puzzle successfully. I guess there are innate differences among species in their ability to mobilize nutrients to well-illuminated leaves depending on pH & bicarbonate content.
That's some hints from me.


----------



## LondonDragon

Hufsa said:


> the cryptocoryne madness continues and today "Silver Queen" opened its first spathe


My Nurri red flowers all the time, but that one is something else! love the colour of the spathe! Now I want one of those lol


----------



## Hufsa

Just got a few things I need to get written into the journal, ill do another round of pictures on sunday 




My little candied friends are still doing well, although my camera focus leaves something to be desired 😅

Right now my two Fluval Plant 3.0 (46W) lights are running at 100% Red, 50% Blue, and 70% Cold White, Pure White and Warm White.
Im calling this an average of 70% intensity in my mind. (The 3.0 spectrum is very high on Blue and low on Red, so my settings might bring it a little bit closer to even.)
Based on the Fluval customer support PAR data some helpful ukaps user (whos name escapes me at the moment) posted, these are the numbers for the 46W;
3"=7.62cm    470 PAR
6"=15.24cm    267 PAR
12"=30.48cm    112 PAR
18"=45.72cm    66 PAR
The back of my substrate is about 35 cm from the lights, and the front about 40 cm away. As you can see the numbers drop off the further you get away from the light source, but not in a linear fashion.
Still, I think this kind of PAR data (I dont even know if this was with all the channels at 100%?) will be guesswork at best. The only way to know for sure would be to actually measure my tank with a proper sensor. So I think its acceptable to assume that any numbers worked out from the above data will be an estimate and not exact.
Just to keep things simple for what is already a guesstimate, I averaged the PAR for 30cm and 45cm and got approx 89 PAR for 37cm.
70% of 89 is ~62, so with two lights I _might_ be sitting somewhere around 124 PAR.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that 100 PAR is a pretty good place to be, so maybe I should go back down to my previous step, ill need to give it some more thought.
Im most tempted to just keep it like it is now and see how it goes.

Photoperiod is still 8 hours with 30 minutes for ramping added before and after. I tried out having 1 hour ramping but it didnt feel quite right to me, so I went back to 30. 
If I ever run out of problems I can always mess around with this at a later point, although increasing to 10 hours sounds much nicer than longer ramps, so more hours will probably be higher on the list of shenanigans.
But im not going to do that until I have fixed some other persistent issues. 
For a while whenever I was in doubt about something regarding plants I would think, "What would @dw1305 do?". 
I have recently added "What would @KirstyF do?" to my toolbox.
Im finding this one to be a highly effective shenanigan repellant 





First spathe on the smaller/second Crypt yujii opened today 😊 They are initially filled with air when they open underwater 


The two main problems in the tank is our good old chlorosis issue, which we are fairly close to solving I feel, and the thread algae issue.
The thread algae issue is a very problematic one. My budget is limited and in order to buy more expensive things for the tank I have relied on sales of shrimp and plants. 
The shrimp colony was struggling last year and the population was getting very low, not helped by the scutariella parasite and frequent water changes due to medication. The shrimp are thriving again and the population is recovering very well, but they are not numerous enough that I want to remove any yet, and I still have about 2-3 months of biweekly Praziquantel treatment planned to be absolutely certain the parasite is gone.
Unfortunately, I havent been able to sell any plants lately either, as I dont feel its ok selling plants affected by algae and especially not thread algae of such an annoying kind as the one I have acquired. It sucks throwing out loads of cuttings that are very rare locally and that could help fund my hobby.
I also need to eradicate the algae problem completely before I can send plants to other hobbyists like @Wookii , im not so keen to give him a disease worse than duckweed and if I do im not sure we will be friends any more 😂
Mid autumn is the perfect time to ship plants, so time is ticking!

The amount of thread algae got pretty wild while I was away on holiday, but it seems to have settled down a little bit now that I am home and doing my regular maintenance.
Contrary to what some might believe, I do in fact manually maintain and look after my tank and dont sit around all day thinking about fertilizer and ratios 🙄
It is in fact possible to have several aspects of plant keeping in mind _*at the same time*_ and writing about one thing doesnt mean thats the only thing I think about or do anything about.
I personally dont find pictures of removed algae and pruned plant leaves very interesting to look at, so I dont take photos of that and dont post them to my journal.
But I digress..

In addition to the regular maintenance, for the past two weeks I have added a half dose of Happy-Life Algin Regular which is a Salicylic Acid based treatment.
The half dose seems to be well tolerated by the Thiara sand snails.
Im changing the water once a week currently, but I think I will increase this to twice a week to see if I can get this problem properly beaten with some more elbow grease.
The long drawn out struggle is getting annoying. 
Im not able to say yet if the Salicylic Acid is helping or not, so please dont go out and buy it because you see it mentioned here.


I dont have concrete picture proof arranged but I feel like my plants (especially the hungry ones) take a bit of a dip right after water changes and spend some days getting back on their feet.
This suggests to me that maybe the water column is getting too lean after my large water changes (I like to do 80-90% because clean water), and I want to start again to add some ferts back in right after the WC.
I happened to look at the Masterline ferts lineup the other day, and they recommend adding three times the normal dose back into the water right after a larger water change. 
This isnt exactly the first time I have read about front loading, but it refreshed it my mind and I think it makes sense based on what im seeing from my plants.
Especially if im going to do water changes twice weekly. Havent decided how much to add yet but ill figure something out.




LondonDragon said:


> My Nurri red flowers all the time, but that one is something else! love the colour of the spathe! Now I want one of those lol


Ah how cool! Nuuri has a red spathe or am I misremembering? Please note I now have the correct ID for that crypt in the picture, it was actually Cryptocryne yujii, not Silver Queen. Its possible either the importer or the store got the ID mistaken for my plant. I dont mind though, the yujii is very nice too 😊




_Maq_ said:


> Curled top leaves may be a sign of Ca deficiency, but also B, Cu, Mo, Ni. (The latter two I consider very unlikely.)


So in your opinion the downcurled leaves on the Pantanal could be an induced Calcium deficiency, or possibly B or Cu?



_Maq_ said:


> I still believe that you should count your Na content as quasi-K, and adjust your ratio (Na+K) : Mg : Ca closer to 1 : 3 : 10 (by weight).


What would getting to this ratio accomplish? Im sorry, maybe you have written it earlier but I have bad memory 
Ive tried wrapping my head around this ratio, I assume by weight means mg/l or ppm?
My tap water Na is about 5 ppm. If I were to get my K down to 2 ppm, the value for Na+K would be 7.
I remineralize currently to 10 ppm Mg and 30 ppm Ca.
1 : 3 : 10
7 : 10 : 30
So to compare the ratio I would have to divide all the numbers by 7?
1 : 1.4 : 4.2
To get your ratio for my Na+K value of 7 I would then have to add 21 ppm Mg and 64 ppm Ca, that would work out to a GH of 13.7 ?
Please correct me if this is the wrong way to work it out?

Im sorry but so far I find the ratio thing quite hard to get on board with, and there are so many people who dont care about this at all that grow very nice plants 🤔
I still dont quite understand how this could be applied to my tank?


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> I dont have concrete picture proof arranged but I feel like my plants (especially the hungry ones) take a bit of a dip right after water changes and spend some days getting back on their feet.
> This suggests to me that maybe the water column is getting too lean after my large water changes (I like to do 80-90% because clean water), and I want to start again to add some ferts back in right after the WC.
> I happened to look at the Masterline ferts lineup the other day, and they recommend adding three times the normal dose back into the water right after a larger water change.
> This isnt exactly the first time I have read about front loading, but it refreshed it my mind and I think it makes sense based on what im seeing from my plants.
> Especially if im going to do water changes twice weekly. Havent decided how much to add yet but ill figure something out.


After ready Greggz's explanation about this, I've also increased my dosing immediately after water change.

Currently I'm doing  a double daily dose after water change and zero dose the day before. Might move to a triple daily dose after water change


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Im sorry but so far I find the ratio thing quite hard to get on board with, and there are so many people who dont care about this at all that grow very nice plants


As I understand it, ppm should mean the same as mg/L (at least in given circumstances).
I've suggested to go *closer* to the ratio I consider ideal. I remember very well that your tap water contains 5 mg/L sodium. I've cursed it already.
I've also noticed that today, you said:


Hufsa said:


> The two main problems in the tank is our good old chlorosis issue, which we are fairly close to solving I feel


So what's your intention?
Generally: People don't care about ratios and still have nice tanks. Well, yes, but quite often when I take a closer look, I can see some irregularities, deficiency symptoms. I don't think your plants are short in potassium, neither they seem in need of calcium. But magnesium is definitely worth considering.
What's you level of bicarbonates?


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> As I understand it, ppm should mean the same as mg/L (at least in given circumstances).
> I've suggested to go *closer* to the ratio I consider ideal. I remember very well that your tap water contains 5 mg/L sodium. I've cursed it already.


Would this be a general increase in GH then in your opinion?


_Maq_ said:


> So what's your intention?


My intention is to fix the chlorosis issue, im just not yet convinced that what you are suggesting will bring me closer to that.


_Maq_ said:


> Generally: People don't care about ratios and still have nice tanks. Well, yes, but quite often when I take a closer look, I can see some irregularities, deficiency symptoms. I don't think your plants are short in potassium, neither they seem in need of calcium. But magnesium is definitely worth considering.


But if I increase Magnesium like you seem to suggest, that would be nowhere near that 1 : 3 : 10 ratio? It just doesnt add up to me


_Maq_ said:


> What's you level of bicarbonates?


The water works filter their source water over marble, resulting in a Calcium value of 21 (as reported by them). As far as I understand marble (or calcite I suppose) is CaCO3 so I believe this is why I receive an equal value of KH and GH, both come only from Calcium, which is why we assume my tap has about 0 Magnesium. 
I plugged 21 ppm Ca into the rotala calculator and got the following;
KH and GH is not something I am super good at so I only have a basic understanding, do these numbers answer your question?


----------



## erwin123

> _Maq_ said:
> I still believe that you should count your Na content as quasi-K, and adjust your ratio (Na+K) : Mg : Ca closer to *1 : 3 : 10 *(by weight).








*My Water Supply Report*
Ca : *15mg/l*
Total Hardness as CaCo3 :  *39 mg/l*
Magnesium: *0.28mg/l*
Sodium: *19mg/l (unusually high - but thats what my report says.. maybe because one of our water sources is desalination?)*
There is no potassium reported so I presume 0

I add *2 mg/l *of Magnesium and *3.2mg/l of K *a week

So my NA+K: Mg : Ca ratio is

*22.2 : 2.28 : 15  (rebasing Na+K to 1) I get:

1: 0.1 : 0.68 *

Appreciate if Maq can confirm that this is how to calculate the ratio ? And If I've calculated it correctly, it seems so far away from Maq's 1:3:10 ratio that all the plants in my tank should be half dead by now?
And sorry again for posting in this thread... but Maq doesn't have a separate thread about his ideal Na+K:Mg:Ca ratio as otherwise I would have asked him in that thread....


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Would this be a general increase in GH then in your opinion?


Yes. But don't overestimate the meaning of GH. It's just a technological number covering two elements out of dozens.


Hufsa said:


> But if I increase Magnesium like you seem to suggest, that would be nowhere near that 1 : 3 : 10 ratio?


Still, I believe magnesium is possibly the right response to your chlorosis of well-lit leaves.


Hufsa said:


> KH and GH is not something I am super good at so I only have a basic understanding, do these numbers answer your question?


Yes, you've got it correct.


erwin123 said:


> There is no potassium reported so I presume 0


Not necessarily so. Potassium is considered harmless so the water processing plants are not required to monitor it. That's why it's regularly missing in their reports.


erwin123 said:


> Appreciate if Maq can confirm that this is how to calculate the ratio ?


Yes.


erwin123 said:


> And If I've calculated it correctly, it seems so far away from Maq's 1:3:10 ratio that all the plants in my tank should be half dead by now?


Dead? Noooo. Plants are very plastic, esp. in Mg:Ca ratio. I'm aware very well that *majority* of all hobbyists keep potassium levels exceedingly high. And I don't insist it must inevitably lead to a disaster. You could prove me wrong quite easily.
I've spent no little time searching for optimal ratio. I could not believe it myself, at first. Less and less potassium in relation to calcium + magnesium, until I've arrived at the ratio I recommend as a reference. Only then I realized that it happens to be quite close to 'average' ratio that occurs in nature. No matter if the water is soft or hard, calcium is regularly far more abundant than other cations. That's why plants developed mechanisms for preferential uptake of potassium and we cannot 'unteach' them to do so.
Yet I must stress two important things:
(1) I'm a low-tech guy. I'm not in a hurry when it comes to plant growth.
(2) Another important ratio is N : P : K! 16 : 1 : 4 molar. By weight NO3 : K =< 6.3 : 1.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Still, I believe magnesium is possibly the right response to your chlorosis of well-lit leaves.


Thanks for this 😊 Thats something I should be able to try adjusting fairly easily, I dont think the addition of some more Magnesium will affect my shrimp much.
Would you advise me to add more Magnesium (10ppm more?) to the water change water, or would you add it as a part of the macro fertilizer?


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Would you advise me to add more Magnesium (10ppm more?) to the water change water, or would you add it as a part of the macro fertilizer?


Not quite sure I can understand your question correctly.
I suppose you dose some blend daily? Or do you have a stock solution of MgSO4 or MgCl2 separate?
You know, I don't see much use for daily fertilization. I'd see it differently, perhaps, if I run hi-tech. Still, I'd suggest to add some more Mg with water change.
I also noticed that you are somehow laboring with your lighting. Light and CO2 may be of importance, too. When these factors are in ample supply, plants respond with decreased formation of chlorophyll. If properly balanced, it can lead to bright red leaves, because formation of anthocyans is not diminished. But I've got little experience in balancing illumination, and none in injecting CO2.
Magnesium (and iron) means chlorophyll. CO2 and strong lighting means less chlorophyll.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Still, I'd suggest to add some more Mg with water change.


How much more Maq, in ppm?
Im only adding Mg in the water change water once a week, nothing in the fertilizer.
Which ratio is better in your opinion; 
1 : 2.1 : 4.2 (by adding 5ppm more at WC)
1 : 2.8 : 4.2 (by adding 10ppm more at WC)


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Which ratio is better in your opinion;


I'd start with the lower one. Not for any particular reason, just a general caution not to change environment dramatically. (I really do like your Cryptocorynes!)


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## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> I'd start with the lower one. Not for any particular reason, just a general caution not to change environment dramatically. (I really do like your Cryptocorynes!)


Can do 😁
I have the regular water change coming up tomorrow, so I will add an extra 5ppm to the water barrel now


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## Hufsa

Just a note for my own reference, @KirstyF decided that I should go back to 0.2 ppm Fe with the EDDHA mixture again to see if we can establish a good baseline with the plant improvement I saw earlier, and just ignore the pink water for a bit.
That has been running since yesterday, so this will be together with the increase in Magnesium.
Planning to filter most of my intended changes through the new Kirsty method, so far it has had a 100% success rate at treating Consistency deficiency.
I simply ask myself "Will Kirsty think this is a good idea?" and if no then I dont do that thing yet.
So far this method has stopped five crazy plans, two bank robberies and an idea about joining the circus.

See you tomorrow with some plant pictures


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Just a note for my own reference, @KirstyF decided that I should go back to 0.2 ppm Fe with the EDDHA mixture again to see if we can establish a good baseline with the plant improvement I saw earlier, and just ignore the pink water for a bit.


You could try burying EDDHA-Fe Ice cubes in the substrate to see if it works - eventually the Fe might leak into the water column, but if it does so slowly, maybe the pink tint will be less obvious.

Handling tip - the moment you grab the ice cubes with your hands, the ice cubes will start melting and your hand will be stained pink - make sure you don't wipe your hands on a nice shirt!


----------



## Hufsa

I got invited to an impromptu barbeque today on very short notice, so I found myself in a huge rush to get the water change and maintenance done before I leave.
The phone camera was either sensing my stress or having a bad day itself, so the whites are a bit blown out and the focus is terrible (that last one is probably on me).
The tank is refilling right now with a timer on, so im throwing these pics up so certain individuals who shall not be named (Happi + plantnoobdude) wont start crying about no update 😉




(All pics were taken before maintenance please excuse dirty intakes)

Baby Pantanals from the windowsill are doing pretty good, I would rate most of them a "kinda grumpy" on the Pantanal Angry Scale 
















Tonina could be greener. The tank is in a transition period right now where the 0.2 EDDHA mixture hasnt taken effect yet, so im not expecting to see any results today. Just posting for the records.




Golden surprised me with a little bit of growing after I pinched off the tops. Not expecting this to last.






This is the curling I am seeing in Super Red @Happi
Im not sure if its the water change or the replanting that is causing the curling, because they often happen at the same time.




Hope to see these improve in a bit















Some of the less demanding plants like Crypt "Purpurea" are growing more normal looking leaves.
I had my suspicions the earlier strong pattern was affected by chlorosis. The current pattern is in my opinion prettier and looks more like a healthy leaf.


One of my new shrimpy friends scared the sh*t out of me when I saw it curled up strangely on a leaf and staying very still. The tank had just been fed but this shrimp was not making its way over to the food.
I thought maybe it had gotten terribly injured somehow because of the strange leg placements, or was dying, and immediate thoughts of my terrible parenting and how bad I was at looking after critters rushed through my head.
Then I saw that the little weirdo was actually chomping down on BBA!!
I see the shrimps rifling through the BBA all the time looking for things to eat, but this shrimp was bending all the way down and shoving actual tufts of BBA into its little freaky mouthparts 
I can only guess that the BBA might be on its way to die, because they dont eat healthy BBA.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I got invited to an impromptu barbeque today on very short notice, so I found myself in a huge rush to get the water change and maintenance done before I leave.
> The phone camera was either sensing my stress or having a bad day itself, so the whites are a bit blown out and the focus is terrible (that last one is probably on me).
> The tank is refilling right now with a timer on, so im throwing these pics up so certain individuals who shall not be named (Happi + plantnoobdude) wont start crying about no update 😉
> 
> View attachment 191754
> (All pics were taken before maintenance please excuse dirty intakes)
> 
> Baby Pantanals from the windowsill are doing pretty good, I would rate most of them a "kinda grumpy" on the Pantanal Angry Scale
> 
> View attachment 191755View attachment 191767
> View attachment 191756View attachment 191768
> View attachment 191757View attachment 191769
> Tonina could be greener. The tank is in a transition period right now where the 0.2 EDDHA mixture hasnt taken effect yet, so im not expecting to see any results today. Just posting for the records.
> 
> View attachment 191758
> Golden surprised me with a little bit of growing after I pinched off the tops. Not expecting this to last.
> 
> View attachment 191759View attachment 191761
> This is the curling I am seeing in Super Red @Happi
> Im not sure if its the water change or the replanting that is causing the curling, because they often happen at the same time.
> 
> View attachment 191760
> Hope to see these improve in a bit
> 
> View attachment 191762View attachment 191763
> View attachment 191764View attachment 191765
> 
> View attachment 191766
> Some of the less demanding plants like Crypt "Purpurea" are growing more normal looking leaves.
> I had my suspicions the earlier strong pattern was affected by chlorosis. The current pattern is in my opinion prettier and looks more like a healthy leaf.
> 
> 
> One of my new shrimpy friends scared the sh*t out of me when I saw it curled up strangely on a leaf and staying very still. The tank had just been fed but this shrimp was not making its way over to the food.
> I thought maybe it had gotten terribly injured somehow because of the strange leg placements, or was dying, and immediate thoughts of my terrible parenting and how bad I was at looking after critters rushed through my head.
> Then I saw that the little weirdo was actually chomping down on BBA!!
> I see the shrimps rifling through the BBA all the time looking for things to eat, but this shrimp was bending all the way down and shoving actual tufts of BBA into its little freaky mouthparts
> I can only guess that the BBA might be on its way to die, because they dont eat healthy BBA.
> 
> View attachment 191752View attachment 191753


Definitely making good progress!!! Love the crypts, and Pantanal is growing, an accomplishment to be proud of.


----------



## _Maq_

The pics of Ludwigia strongly support my suggestion that relative deficiency of magnesium is at play. Chlorosis seems to be stronger towards the base of the leaves (better illuminated); iron deficiency would show the reverse pattern. The curling of Ludwigia leaves may be possibly attributed to light calcium deficiency. To sum both: Potassium (+ sodium) relative excess. Nice documentary examples.
Beside that, I agree with you suspicion that some species show lack of iron. I'm really curious whether a better chelator would bring improvement in this.


----------



## Hufsa

Had a small oopsie today, the past two weeks ive been dosing 1/2 a dose of Happy-Life Algin Regular once a week after a water change.
Thiara snails have been ok with this. I think I have mentioned this already actually.. 🤔 Anyway..
The tank got a 3/4 dose last night and this is apparently right around the limit for these snails.
This morning there were some unhappy snails on the sand again. Not quite as many as last time but enough to get the point across.
Last time things went wrong they got 1/2 a dose plus 1/2 a dose two days apart, and this caused a large reaction.
Im assuming the Salicylic sticks around for *at least* two days and thus this would have accumulated to a full dose.

I whipped up some water with ok temperature real quick and got another water change done.
It is definite that for whatever reason my tank (well these snails technically) cant go over 1/2 dose.
Happy-Life Algin Regular contains 35mg/100ml Salicylic Acid. (More than Easy-Life's Algexit which has 20mg)
The bottle instructions outline a treatment of 4 weeks, with 12.5 ml per 100 liter dosed once a week after a 1/3 water change.
I would like to know exactly what ppm of Salicylic acid levels have been in my tank, im just too exhausted right now to work it out.
Im writing down the details anyway, maybe I can look at it again later 

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Ive got to write some boring numbers now, so feel free to skip ahead unless you are Happi, Maq, or just really fond of numbers 😉

My current dosing regime keeps getting buried pages back in huge wordy posts full of pictures that even -I- think is a slog to read through, so im writing it all again here, exactly what I am *currently dosing* so I have it easily accessible.
Im really struggling to remember things lately for health reasons so this is as much for my own benefit as it is for anyone else.

Macro fert weekly ppm:
3 N (13,29 NO3) From 50% KNO3 and 50% Urea
0,39 P (1,2 PO4)
4,68 K
This K is higher than the 2 ppm we discussed, I need to make a new batch of macro fertilizer and use more Urea in order to get down to 2 ppm K.
Im about to run out of macro fert so I will try to get the new mix made sometime this week

Micro fert weekly ppm:
0,05 Fe EDDHA
0,05 Fe DTPA
0,1 Fe Gluconate
=0,2 total
0,1 Mn EDTA
0,04 Zn EDTA
0,04 B
0,012 Cu EDTA
0,0002 Mo
0,0002 Ni

Havent done any extra dosing of ferts after water change so far.
I need to put the ferts into smaller containers than my autodoser has and I havent gotten around to this yet.

Water change water after adding Calcium sulphate and Magnesium sulphate now comes out to;
Ca 30ppm
Mg 15ppm
GH 7.6

~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Numbers finished 



plantnoobdude said:


> Definitely making good progress!!! Love the crypts, and Pantanal is growing, an accomplishment to be proud of.


Pretty happy about the Pantanal at the moment 😊 So far the ones on the far right that are growing in just sand are growing just as well as the ones in the cup of aquasoil. Maybe the difference will develop later on as the plants get more established.


Aside from some of the nutrient issues we are working on fixing, im pretty happy with the tank and algae growth seems to be under control


----------



## Hufsa

Im really frustrated and disappointed today, the plants are way worse and I just want to throw the whole tank out the window 

The changes that have been done lately are as follows:
19.07.22 10% increase on lights, so almost three weeks ago. This is not the cause but the increased light will have increased demand on everything else to be _just right_.
24.07.22 (Or around this time) Bumped CO2 up a little bit, if plants were slightly CO2 limited this change will have made whatever the problem is worse. Pantanal perked up a bit.
29.07.22 Went back to 0.2 Fe of the EDDHA++ mix
30.07.22 More large water changes (about two per week) ~75-90% + Increased Magnesium content of water by 5ppm
Havent done any front loading of ferts.

I dont think the large water changes are helping this issue, and this amount of unhappy plants is like asking for a new thread algae bloom. Im going to go back to one water change a week, will try to convince myself to only change 50% but this is a work in progress.
Pantanal has been threatening to stunt all week but today it looks like it might not.

Really unsure about what else to do 
The Tonina hasnt been this ghostly white in a while so something needs to be done


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Im really frustrated and disappointed today, the plants are way worse and I just want to throw the whole tank out the window
> 
> The changes that have been done lately are as follows:
> 19.07.22 10% increase on lights, so almost three weeks ago. This is not the cause but the increased light will have increased demand on everything else to be _just right_.
> 24.07.22 (Or around this time) Bumped CO2 up a little bit, if plants were slightly CO2 limited this change will have made whatever the problem is worse. Pantanal perked up a bit.
> 29.07.22 Went back to 0.2 Fe of the EDDHA++ mix
> 30.07.22 More large water changes (about two per week) ~75-90% + Increased Magnesium content of water by 5ppm
> Havent done any front loading of ferts.
> 
> I dont think the large water changes are helping this issue, and this amount of unhappy plants is like asking for a new thread algae bloom. Im going to go back to one water change a week, will try to convince myself to only change 50% but this is a work in progress.
> Pantanal has been threatening to stunt all week but today it looks like it might not.
> 
> Really unsure about what else to do
> The Tonina hasnt been this ghostly white in a while so something needs to be done


If I were staying in the same country I would mail you some APT Complete/ APT EI  to try.....  our water parameters are pretty close when it comes to gH/pH so I am still not able figure out why your Pantanals aren't growing like weeds. 

Even when I messed up my CO2 and only had a 0.9 pH drop, the Pantanals continued growing like crazy, it was the Ammannias that had a bad reaction...


----------



## Hufsa

Ok.. 

So after a lot of back and forth.. and back and forth.. and then some more.. I decided to focus on undoing the latest changes and continue to try to get back to that spot where the plants were pretty good and we had stargrass green for once.


Hufsa said:


> The changes that have been done lately are as follows:
> 19.07.22 10% increase on lights, so almost three weeks ago. This is not the cause but the increased light will have increased demand on everything else to be _just right_.
> 24.07.22 (Or around this time) Bumped CO2 up a little bit, if plants were slightly CO2 limited this change will have made whatever the problem is worse. Pantanal perked up a bit.
> 29.07.22 Went back to 0.2 Fe of the EDDHA++ mix
> 30.07.22 More large water changes (about two per week) ~75-90% + Increased Magnesium content of water by 5ppm


Lights turned down 10% on the back light and 20% on the front light, slightly more on the front light because I think my crypts are getting overly stressed, they just wont stop putting out spathes to a point where I am starting to be concerned and some of the new spathes are melting before they come out properly.
Im leaving the CO2 as it is because the Pantanal knows where I live and I am afraid that its gonna cut my throat while im sleeping
Going back to once a week water change. Not going to change any water right now but when its due next weekend I will not add the extra Magnesium.

I turned micro dosing off as the doser is about to run dry anyway and I still cant figure out exactly what I think is the best to make.
I had some leftover Fe DTPA sitting in a separate bottle, so I have dosed 0.2 ppm of that right now and will just observe the plants for a couple of days to see if I can see any greening in the fastest growers.

Might have enough macro for another day or two so im just going to leave that as it is for now.


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> Really unsure about what else to do


Perhaps rule out that you have an CO2 issue (unhappy plants, BBA back, other algae)?

I remember that you are usually at lowish (20ppm) CO2, just one of your two filter circuits injecting CO2? While you're perfecting the fertilisers, could you  actually have a CO2 issue, with a too low (for your tank size) injection and instability as a result?



Hufsa said:


> I think im due for another PH profile also.


Done this one already? What is your pH drop at lights on now?
After a 75-90% water change, WC day  twice a week, the tank may need longer than other days to pump up CO2 to usual level.


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> Perhaps rule out that you have an CO2 issue (unhappy plants, BBA back, other algae)?


Chlorosis is not really an established symptom of CO2 issues. Unhappy plants is a really wide term that covers a lot of different issues.
My view right now is that the chlorosis and paleness is caused by the nutrients being too low, while algae and Pantanal+Golden might be CO2 or a combination of things.



Yugang said:


> I remember that you are usually at lowish (20ppm) CO2, just one of your two filter circuits injecting CO2?


Right now the tank runs around 30 ppm



Yugang said:


> While you're perfecting the fertilisers, could you  actually have a CO2 issue, with a too low (for your tank size) injection and instability as a result?


My injection rate is high, same with offgassing. I just replaced the first CO2 bottle, so ive used a 6 liter bottle of CO2 since february.
BBA and Pantanal is not really my main focus right now since the other issues have been more pressing. 
Summer makes the tank run a bit differently, temperatures have unavoidably fluctuated more and I have to run the tank without the lid that I usually have on.
For my own sanity and health I have accepted that the CO2 might be slightly unstable until things go back to normal.
Once I can get the lid back on and temperatures stop being so high im going to perform another profile and make sure things are stable again.



Yugang said:


> Done this one already? What is your pH drop at lights on now?


1.0 drop last I checked


Yugang said:


> After a 75-90% water change, WC day  twice a week, the tank may need longer than other days to pump up CO2 to usual level.


Can you explain this? Why would it need longer? Usually I change the water after the photoperiod is done and the CO2 levels have gone down.


----------



## _Maq_

I'm truly perplexed.
All my knowledge & experience tells me clearly that your issues are iron and magnesium. There's no big science in that, these two elements are key to creating chlorophyll.
Your water is on the soft side, low in bicarbonates, and acidic thanks to CO2 addition. Iron should not be a big problem. I'm not using artificial chelators and my primitive DIY iron citrate works perfectly well for me in such conditions - low bicarbonates and slightly acidic water. (In alkaline water, some species are struggling with iron deficiency. Yet only some, and that's part of my research - I accept it as such.)

Perhaps I'm repeating myself, but this is what I know on plant physiology:
(1) Magnesium uptake can be inhibited by excess ammonium, sodium, potassium, calcium. Calcium seems unlikely in your tank.
(2) Creation of chlorophyll may be affected by photoinhibition, i.e. excess lighting.
(3) Both strong lighting and elevated CO2 have the same impact on plants - they diminish creation of chlorophyll. A very 'rational' response, indeed.
(4) Dissolved CO2 increases redox. I'm rather unsure in this field yet what I do know is that highly oxidative environment affects negatively iron uptake.
(5) Iron uptake may be inhibited by elevated presence of other transition metals like manganese, nickel, zinc & copper. (I should stress here that I never dose these micronutrients _together_. Neither do I use strong chelators. In this way, when I dose iron, other transition metals are very unlikely present in the water column.)
(6) Much iron is lost due to creation of insoluble iron phosphate. This compound may dissolve in anoxic conditions in deeper zones of the substrate. However, much of it often ends up as a precipitate in the filter. This is enhanced by two factors: orthoposphate in the water column, and strong chelators.
To this, I add that EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, etc. do *not* bind iron exclusively. These chelators are used because their complexation abilities are strong, and because they degrade slowly. Yet complexes are not _absolutely_ stable (if they were, they'd be useless as fertilizers). So, if such a chelator turns 'empty' it creates immediately complexes with whatever cations present, in accord with their innate affinity to them. Unlike citrate, artificial chelators remain present in the water column for weeks. If you dose them weekly, they are present _permanently_. Binding multivalent cations - Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Ni, Al, Ca, Mg...

Yes, this is largely an unknown field and my speculation. Yet I wonder why people have to use such strong chelators and dose such high amounts of transition metals. My experience tells me something quite different - these strong chelators may work when we insist on keeping some species in water with high pH or high alkalinity while these species are not naturally adapted to such conditions. Apart from that, ordinary salts or weak natural chelates (like my homemade citrates and oxalates, or humic substances) work without issues. After all, there's no EDTA in the nature, is it?


----------



## Hufsa

I have a plan, ill write more on it later 😊
Have cancelled my one way ticket to Himalaya to become a munk


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## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> to Himalaya to become a munk


Or nun, perhaps?


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> Chlorosis is not really an established symptom of CO2 issues.


Definitely, I was more triggered by mentioned BBA, thread algae. CO2 has nothing with Chlorosis



Hufsa said:


> Can you explain this? Why would it need longer? Usually I change the water after the photoperiod is done and the CO2 levels have gone down.


I was thinking from the perspective that perhaps you had a CO2 stability issue. You seem confident this is not the case.
I often have quite some residual CO2 in the tank in the morning, before CO2 goes on. No complete outgassing during the night. My tap water is low on CO2, so if I do a big (75-90%) water change the CO2 starting point in the morning will be lower and the tank takes longer to reach its stable CO2 ppm level before lights on. Doing this twice a week could be relevant if CO2 stability is not great to start with, was my thought.

Anway, I seem to be barking at the wrong tree here


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Im leaving the CO2 as it is because the Pantanal knows where I live and I am afraid that its gonna cut my throat while im sleeping





Hufsa said:


> I have a plan, ill write more on it later 😊
> Have cancelled my one way ticket to Himalaya to become a munk


You just need to listen to some <"nice relaxing music">.



cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Or nun, perhaps?


Its 2022 Maq  Have you seen the munk outfits? Almost like a wizard robe. Much cooler than nuns 😁



Yugang said:


> Definitely, I was more triggered by mentioned BBA, thread algae. CO2 has nothing with Chlorosis


Glad you agree with that part 😊 I definitely have CO2 stability in mind even if I dont mention it a lot in the journal. For now I am satisfied that it is at least decent and is not the primary issue in my tank at the moment. Once the chlorosis and paleness issue is resolved then it will be first in line if I continue having other issues like algae and stunting.


I quite like the Pantanal for this, just because it is such an argumentative beast that accepts no compromises, its a good teacher 😄
When I change a lot of water I can tell the stability of the tank is disturbed and the Pantanal is usually the first to let me know.

This week my tank got 3 huge water changes because I had issues with the snails reacting to Salicylic acid*.
Thats a record amount of water changes, and the plants are record levels of unhappy.




I was talking to @ElleDee and when she put it into perspective for me and pointed it out, it makes a lot of sense.
My tap water is practically RO with a bit of Calcium carbonate in it. So when im doing a water change and replace 75% (usually more) of the water, theres not a lot left in the water column. 
Pair that up with kinda lean dosing, *inert substrate* and high demand brought on by CO2 and light, plants might be having a really hard time with it. 
Ive been operating under the assumption that my water column isnt supposed to have any excess and therefore water changes shouldnt matter, but if this is not the case and the water column does in fact have and need a certain equilibrium of ferts, then everything clicks into place.
Consistent issues with chlorosis under my usual regime of once a week very large water change. Plants not doing well despite technically getting decent ferts on paper.
The weeks leading up to the holiday and the holiday itself, the tank got less water changes than usual. Plants did better.
This week, did a ton of water changes. Plants are horribly white.
Following? 😃

So im going to do some replenishing / front loading / extra dosing, whatever you want to call it, to the water that I am adding from water changes.
Going for one change a week with 50%, no more no less. This is what "everyone else" is doing, so this should work for me also.
Im thinking of replenishing the new water with about ~5ppm NO3 + equivalent macros, but this isnt set in stone.
Doesnt seem like a good idea to include urea here, so will use only KNO3 for this.
I could front load micros if I wanted to, but I think it makes less sense. Both from a precipitation perspective and from a demand perspective. 
The demand for carbon, nitrate, potassium and phosphate is just much higher than traces, so in my view macros are more likely to run out.

Ill keep the regular macro fertilizer the same as before, and for the micro im going to make a mix that comes out to 0.3 Fe with mostly DTPA and a bit of EDDHA in an amount that shouldnt turn the water pink hopefully.
Ill skip the Gluconate this time, but have the option to add it manually if needed.

I am relatively hopeful this adjustment to water changes and allowing the fertilizer to build up a bit / things to be left alone more, will at least get me back to how things were before this week of really horrible plant growth.
(The plants have hardly grown this week and are pale all over, in addition to the chlorosis that is visible in pictures.)
If there is still some lingering/minor chlorosis issue left after this regime change then we can deal with that as it comes.
Its entirely possible and I think likely that a few more tweaks to overall fertilizer levels need to be done to find a good spot for my specific tank, especially with the inert substrate in mind.

Im feeling a lot better now that I have a bit of an idea why things went so entirely sideways this week 😊
I was feeling really sucker-punched yesterday because I was expecting things to finally get better and then they got super bad instead and I hadnt the faintest clue why.


*About the Salicylic acid. I wrote earlier that the snails reacted badly to 3/4 of a dose. After this I let them rest for a few days and then I added 1/2 dose again, because they had been ok with this in the weeks before. 
But it appears they have been weakened and no longer tolerate even a half dose. I cant in good conscience continue to try to get this to work out, so im stopping the use of Salicylic acid for good.

Anyway I need to stop talking and finally make those new ferts, so ill insert these random pictures here and make my escape


----------



## erwin123

Tom Barr (and Dennis Wong shares his view) has suggested that plant aerenchyma plays a part in why plants seem to grow better during water change day.​








						Why water change day seems to grow aquatic plants better
					

Basic simple question: why do my plants seem to grow better/best the day of the water change?   I do a large water change in the morning right after the lights come on, then late in the day, there is mad pearling and obviously better growth than any other day of the week.  I've measured plant...




					barrreport.com
				





_________________


Spoiler: What do you call a friar indicted on federal charges?



A felonious monk.


----------



## Hufsa

So as some of you already know my plants are doing much better already 😃 Im really pleased! 🥰
Stargrass (the fastest grower) is looking much greener, and I think I can get the rest of the way to solid green with tweaking the total amounts of Fe and Mn and making sure I front load enough after water changes 😊
I took a few quick comparison shots to share in the message group, and also posted them in this post since they were illustrating for that thread. 
So you can check them out there if you want, if not I will do another full round of pictures for the journal on sunday 

I thought I would write a little about my plans for the tank, there are a lot of upcoming ones but I want to find a good order to implement them in.
I want to avoid doing the classic everything at once 😅 Since some of them are more important to me than others, I think I need to prioritize the order to implement them.

1: (Right now) Eliminate chlorosis in plants, make sure macro nutrient levels are sufficient to avoid any obvious mobile nutrient deficiency, make sure water change routines provide nutrient stability.
Sit very firmly on hands and dont do anything wild for a time <- This is going to be hard

2: Do another detailed PH profile + follow up measurements daily, and make sure the CO2 is stable and optimized. Between macros and CO2 im hoping to bump up the size of the Pantanal a bit. 
Im not entirely sure what the issue with Golden is so I will leave that plant for later and hope it magically fixes itself on its own along the way somehow (a girl can hope) 

3: If plant health is virtually 100% and the slimy thread algae persists, try removing Urea as nitrogen source and use only KNO3 for a time, to see if that helps. Can always try Urea again later.

?: There is an issue with the sand now that im pulling out plants so often. The bank of sand is sliding down in record time, and the layer of sand in the back covering the mesh bags is getting so thin its becoming hard to plant in. The crypts in the front also keep getting slightly buried in increasing amounts of sand. I need to remove the mesh bags of pebbles banking the substrate in the back, and get the tank set up with a perfectly level substrate. It wont be the best for visual depth but it will keep the sand from jumping around all over the place in the long run.
Not sure if I should just do each half of the tank carefully with the livestock hiding in the other half, or stress them out by catching them all (including a gazillion shrimp) and store them somewhere else while I work.
Would welcome some input on this (?)

?: At a stable point, try increasing only K to see what effect this has. (Im just very curious about this for reasons)

?: Emersed houseplants need a better setup. They keep getting in the way of maintenance, the roots are unsightly, and I would like to house them in their own container outside of the tank. 
Toying with the idea of some sort of drip filter combination for this

?: Emersed houseplants need dedicated lighting from the ceiling, right now they are just getting ambient light and I can tell this isnt going to cut it in the long run. Winter is coming 
I might fix this one very soon. My plan is to angle the light so that it only hits the emersed plants and doesnt go into the aquarium.

?: I purchased pipes and fittings for mounting / hanging the lights above the tank ages ago, still havent gotten around to doing anything with this project 🙄
Getting the lights away a small distance will make the spread on the water surface much better and maintenance much easier. Will need a clear lid to put on the tank also.


Picture tax:



Rotala macrandra invitro that I bought a lil while ago on a whim. I have read that this is a good indicator plant, sensitive to fluctuations in CO2. I thought that might come in handy, and I wanted to see how it does in my tank since I have the "Mini Type 4" variety on my wish list, which is said to be slightly pickier.
So far it seems to be growing steady and well and is gaining size quickly.

The little green bits around it is Rotala H'ra, also from invitro. This was added a little later, and the invitro cup was on its very last legs, about to expire, so the plants are taking a little time to come around.
I got H'ra because im planning to use it as a long term nitrate test while I work out the best dosing level for my setup. 
The color of H'ra is easily influenced by light and nitrate limitation, and its a very popular plant, so its a "known quantity" in this way.

See you again soon


----------



## Hufsa

I tried something new with the FTS, apparently my phone DOES have a pro mode and I just had to swipe right to find it. Only took what.. five years and my SO pointing it out for me 
I turned down the ..whatchamacallit and got a picture without the tops of the plants super white. Might have gone a touch too dark but eh, next time 😁

Plants are still doing much better  
I think I need to just keep experimenting to find the right dose and replenishing for my tank now that the water changes are more normal.




Theres more green now in Marilia, this is a good thing. Before it was basically only red (and yellow) pigment on white, which looked very pretty but this is healthier. Now there is chlorophyll here too.
It can probably color up more in higher light, but im going to chill with the lights on this current level for a while, while I sort out the raging dumpsterfire some of the problems in my tank 😁




Stargrass is green again, woohoo! There is still a bit more green to be had on the newest growth, I want to get it all the way to max green, but I think I should let things just grow out for a couple more weeks before deciding to try adjusting the micros. (Do you hear this future-Hufsa? At least one week!)
I saw Burr has posted online again with the latest update to his micro mix, might try emulating that recipe later on, it seems to have a good track record.




Cuba is recovering with improved color in the tops. These guys were replanted quite short a while ago, and then I made the mistake of putting them too crowded into each other and other plants. This significantly affects the growth of the plants and should not be disregarded. I removed some of the plants surrounding them, but they should get even more space next time I replant. Then there was the week of record water changes and record unhappy plants, and they all more or less stunted. But thats ok, they're coming back now and I have a good reminder to not skimp on the basics such as crowding and placement.




Greener Polysperma too 😊 I feel like these also should be even greener than this overall, both in new growth and old growth. Im going to front load a bit more on todays water change, so we'll see if that helps.




Ive reduced the group of Rotala rotundifolia "Pink/Rosa". I think this plant might need an absolutely insane light intensity to turn even slightly pink or something 
Im not enjoying this plant and with how full my tank is there is no room for plants that I dont enjoy.
Ive started an emersed culture of this variety and as soon as that is established and growing, this group in the tank is getting booted out.
Theres too many nice precious plants in this world to have "somewhat green rotala rotundifolia" hanging around 








Tonina recovering color at Tonina speed 😅 Steady does it. 
This group also needs more room because its neighbors are creeping up on it. 
Ill do a bit of trimming later and some during the next days.




I ended up trimming the entire bush of Super Red last time, and all the new shoots look good. 
The stunting/curling might very well have been a reaction to the water column bottoming out completely.
Ill continue to keep an eye on it to see if it happens again.




My poor Blyxa still looks like **** but if everything else is coming around then this will too. 
Im moving some plants around soon and will put this one where there is less light 




Pantanals in newest pot of Aquasoil continuing to do ok. They're a bit crowded so two of the smaller ones arent getting what they need.



Their buddies on the right arent quite as happy hehe but this pot only has a very thin layer of Aquasoil, and these stems had the tops removed a while ago. Pantanal did not approve. 



Interestingly the two Pantanals in just sand are also continuing to do ok. They are slightly smaller than their aquasoil-cousins but decidedly ok looking for my tank.




R mac also needs moving soon. There are a few small deformities to the leaves, but I know for certain that my surface agitation is not the same day to day, so im not too fussed.
Im pretty disgruntled that the heatwave is back, I was super ready for autumn which is my favorite season. Cozy sweaters and my favorite slippers... so close yet so far away 😥
The CO2 is going to be suboptimal until I can remove the fan, put the lid back on the tank and get evaporation under control again. 
Decided a while ago not to stress about it so im just waiting for better days 😊


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> View attachment 192522
> 
> View attachment 192508
> I tried something new with the FTS, apparently my phone DOES have a pro mode and I just had to swipe right to find it. Only took what.. five years and my SO pointing it out for me
> I turned down the ..whatchamacallit and got a picture without the tops of the plants super white. Might have gone a touch too dark but eh, next time 😁
> 
> Plants are still doing much better
> I think I need to just keep experimenting to find the right dose and replenishing for my tank now that the water changes are more normal.
> 
> View attachment 192509
> Theres more green now in Marilia, this is a good thing. Before it was basically only red (and yellow) pigment on white, which looked very pretty but this is healthier. Now there is chlorophyll here too.
> It can probably color up more in higher light, but im going to chill with the lights on this current level for a while, while I sort out the raging dumpsterfire some of the problems in my tank 😁
> 
> View attachment 192510
> Stargrass is green again, woohoo! There is still a bit more green to be had on the newest growth, I want to get it all the way to max green, but I think I should let things just grow out for a couple more weeks before deciding to try adjusting the micros. (Do you hear this future-Hufsa? At least one week!)
> I saw Burr has posted online again with the latest update to his micro mix, might try emulating that recipe later on, it seems to have a good track record.
> 
> View attachment 192511
> Cuba is recovering with improved color in the tops. These guys were replanted quite short a while ago, and then I made the mistake of putting them too crowded into each other and other plants. This significantly affects the growth of the plants and should not be disregarded. I removed some of the plants surrounding them, but they should get even more space next time I replant. Then there was the week of record water changes and record unhappy plants, and they all more or less stunted. But thats ok, they're coming back now and I have a good reminder to not skimp on the basics such as crowding and placement.
> 
> View attachment 192512
> Greener Polysperma too 😊 I feel like these also should be even greener than this overall, both in new growth and old growth. Im going to front load a bit more on todays water change, so we'll see if that helps.
> 
> View attachment 192513
> Ive reduced the group of Rotala rotundifolia "Pink/Rosa". I think this plant might need an absolutely insane light intensity to turn even slightly pink or something
> Im not enjoying this plant and with how full my tank is there is no room for plants that I dont enjoy.
> Ive started an emersed culture of this variety and as soon as that is established and growing, this group in the tank is getting booted out.
> Theres too many nice precious plants in this world to have "somewhat green rotala rotundifolia" hanging around
> 
> View attachment 192514
> 
> View attachment 192515
> Tonina recovering color at Tonina speed 😅 Steady does it.
> This group also needs more room because its neighbors are creeping up on it.
> Ill do a bit of trimming later and some during the next days.
> 
> View attachment 192516
> I ended up trimming the entire bush of Super Red last time, and all the new shoots look good.
> The stunting/curling might very well have been a reaction to the water column bottoming out completely.
> Ill continue to keep an eye on it to see if it happens again.
> 
> View attachment 192517
> My poor Blyxa still looks like **** but if everything else is coming around then this will too.
> Im moving some plants around soon and will put this one where there is less light
> 
> View attachment 192518
> Pantanals in newest pot of Aquasoil continuing to do ok. They're a bit crowded so two of the smaller ones arent getting what they need.
> View attachment 192519
> Their buddies on the right arent quite as happy hehe but this pot only has a very thin layer of Aquasoil, and these stems had the tops removed a while ago. Pantanal did not approve.
> View attachment 192520
> Interestingly the two Pantanals in just sand are also continuing to do ok. They are slightly smaller than their aquasoil-cousins but decidedly ok looking for my tank.
> 
> View attachment 192521
> R mac also needs moving soon. There are a few small deformities to the leaves, but I know for certain that my surface agitation is not the same day to day, so im not too fussed.
> Im pretty disgruntled that the heatwave is back, I was super ready for autumn which is my favorite season. Cozy sweaters and my favorite slippers... so close yet so far away 😥
> The CO2 is going to be suboptimal until I can remove the fan, put the lid back on the tank and get evaporation under control again.
> Decided a while ago not to stress about it so im just waiting for better days 😊


The plants look really good, nice improvements in tonina.
I have a feeling once the heat has passed all the plants will perk up even more.
The l. Palustris look really nice.
The crypt spiral is tiger look so good swooping over the tank. I wanna get my hands on the green version.



Hufsa said:


> Decided a while ago not to stress about it so im just waiting for better days 😊


Same here. Looking forward to autumn, more botanical hunting and warm fuzzy jumpers😊


----------



## Hufsa

To be continued


----------



## Hufsa

For my own notes mostly although I know some others are also interested;

07.08.22 added 4.43 NO3, 0.4 PO4, 2.96 K ppm (to 250 liter) directly after the water change.

Oddly specific numbers I know, this is 1 N and 0.13 P + whatever K I get because of KNO3. I just wanted to keep the replenishing somewhat consistent with the main macro fertilizer.
So im dosing for the full tank volume of 250L instead of dosing for the water replaced. Not entirely made up my mind about this yet, might change in the future. I think my conclusion was that dosing for the water replaced makes more sense when there is already a fair excess in the water column. Or something like that, it was pretty late at night. Welcome input on this.

14.08.22 double that, so 8.86 NO3, 0.8 PO4 and 5.92 K. (2 N + +)
Reducing the main macro fertilizer that runs through the week from 3 N to 2 N.
That is still a net increase in macros compared to what I have used for a while, parts of it has just moved up front. Just feeling my way around really.
Did a pretty heavy trim today after the pictures and removed some species of plants entirely, so taking it a bit easy.


----------



## Hufsa

Happi made me aware I had not posted my latest micro dosing here so;


> Last week the tank got:
> 0,025 Fe EDDHA
> 0,275 Fe DTPA
> = 0,3 Fe
> 0,05 Mn
> 0,02 Zn
> 0,02 B
> 0,006 Cu
> 0,0001 Mo
> 0,0001 Ni
> Plus 0,2 Fe Gluconate dosed separately


Will be the same this week 😊

The tank got a big trim yesterday and I am removing several species of plants entirely
Getting the axe this week: Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow' & 'Petit', Anubias 'Petite' & "Aquaflora Pangolino", Sagittaria subulata
Getting handed over to plant friends or sold once BBA free: Bucephalandra 'Brownie Blue', No ID, "Brownie Ghost Aquaflora", 'Lamandau Purple', 'Deep Purple', 'Biblis'

Im trying to keep only the species I like the best, because my wishlist is long and full of terrors  I like the Trident and Windelow better than Narrow, and Petit is only marginally Petit with CO2 injection apparently.
As for the Anubias, im planning to get some of that cute new Mini Coin from Tropica and having only that one. Was tempted to put Sagittaria in an emersed culture in case I changed my mind and wanted it back later, but no, it needs to go. The rest of the Buces are nice Buces its just that I have so many varieties and its getting crowded and confusing. Keeping my favorites is the way to go (room for new favorites now  )

Only 41 species in the tank once some of the buce goes, ah feels so light and airy 🥰
Of course, with so much room for activities I have already set plans in motion to fill up the gaps 
In fact I have been _very very bad_ and ordered myself early christmas gifts for two years forward 😇 Dont ask how, I dont know either
9 new very shiny precious preciouses will arrive a bit later, some of them have been at the very top of my wishlist for a long time 🥰🥰🥰


----------



## ElleDee

Hufsa said:


> So im dosing for the full tank volume of 250L instead of dosing for the water replaced. Not entirely made up my mind about this yet, might change in the future. I think my conclusion was that dosing for the water replaced makes more sense when there is already a fair excess in the water column. Or something like that, it was pretty late at night. Welcome input on this.



I think the big question is how consistent is the amount of water that you remove for a WC? If you always do the same amount every week, the your fertilizer input can be the same and things will stay consistent, though precisely how much you remove controls how much nutrients ultimately accumulate. If your WC percentage varies, then either the amount of fertilizer you add needs to vary as well or the concentration of nutrients in your tank is going to change. Rotala Butterfly has an accumulation calculator if you want to see a graph of how this works. I confess I didn't really understand it myself until I saw it visualized.


----------



## Hufsa

Really good point as usual @ElleDee  😃 Thanks for the input too, sometimes I ask a question / want input in my journal but no one says anything 😅
Yes, that makes a lot of sense.
Ideally I should only change 50% of the water every time, the problem is that im still doing routine treatments with praziquantel every two weeks, so every two weeks calls for a slightly larger water change to get rid of the medication. I guess technically I dont have to do more than 50% after medication, but the idea of having halfway levels of active substances in my tank just sits weirdly with me.

So either I need to settle for one % of water to change at all water changes no exceptions, or im going to have to dose per the new water added and raise my ppms slightly to get the same result that I am getting now.
Im going to let the idea just settle for a bit but I guess the latter is more practical?


----------



## _Maq_

I can tell you my routine. I always mineralize RODI water, and I add all minerals according to the volume I change. My stock solutions are made in a way that 1ml of given solution adds - say - 20 µM of X to 5 litres. If I change 45 litres, then I add 9 ml of given solution. (I've got used to do all my formulas in moles, for very practical reasons.)


----------



## Hufsa

So ive got the next step of "Operation Improve Plant Health" laid out, im still on Step 1 but have divided it into smaller sub-steps to prevent the evil goblin that lives on my shoulder from doing them all at the same time 😉



> Step 1: (Right now) Eliminate chlorosis in plants, make sure macro nutrient levels are sufficient to avoid any obvious mobile nutrient deficiency, make sure water change routines provide nutrient stability.
> Sit very firmly on hands and dont do anything wild for a time





> Part B: Fe is currently at 0.3 (+0.2Gluconate), plants got ~75% better in new growth. Other traces still at lower level. Raise other traces, especially Mn to see if we can get the last 25% of chlorosis gone, and raise Mo to see if nitrate-deficiency-looking symptoms improve.
> DONT: start messing around with creative front loading and unchelated traces at the same time as Part B.



My thinking: Plants are getting pretty rich iron dosing right now compared to the rest of the traces. In fact the water turns slightly pink by the end of the week. This should indicate that Fe supply is unlimited, since Fe EDDHA is building up a bit and turning the water pink. There is still at least 25% of chlorosis looking symptoms left in the new growth of plants. Mn is a likely candidate for the last ~25%. So I want to raise this one to a more normal relationship with Fe. 
1 : 0.5 (Fe : Mn) is more or less the highest ratio used out there, quite a few mixes have 1 : 0.3 or lower Mn. Im not convinced this matters so much, I think it just needs to be close enough and the plants will fix the rest through their clever uptake mechanisms. The goal right now is not to find the absolutely most perfect-est amount of each trace, but to get plant growth as close to ~99% as I can get. I can mess around with that last 1% of optimization until I die of old age I think.
The reason I am raising all of the traces instead of just Mn is because im not really keen to play nutrient deficiency whack-a-mole with trace deficiency symptoms all the way down the list if I can avoid it. 
So im picking a sensible ratio and bringing them all in line. My Mo dosing has usually been on the low side because this is how Marschner/Epstein has it written. Since my plants are looking a little pale all over and plants need sufficient Mo to make nitrate reductase, im bringing this one up a fair bit more as well. Mo is relatively unproblematic to have a little high and requirements for this trace varies a lot between plants.
So its technically more than one change at once, but im making an executive decision to combine these small trace things 

So new micro mix should look like this:
0.3 Fe (From 0.275 DTPA and 0.025 EDDHA)
0.15 Mn
0.06 B
0.06 Zn
0.018 Cu
0.009 Mo
0.0001 Ni (Not raised this one, my tap water contains enough on paper, leaving in a symbolic amount just in case)

I havent made it yet, past Hufsa said I have to wait at least one week to implement any changes 
I will try to make the new batch soon so its ready for next week.

The new micro mix should probably be allowed to work for two weeks in order to observe any improvements, although im tempted to perform some PH profiles if the weather will allow me to put the lid on the tank. I guess we'll see what I end up doing. Making sure CO2 is stable doesnt really interfere with chlorosis, and it would be nice to get that nailed down again before much further nutrient-troubleshooting.
The ideal outcome of Part B would be resolving the last 25% of chlorosis, and an improvement in what could seem like a nitrogen deficiency but shouldnt be (see below)

The rest of the plan depends on how the plants are looking at this point, I need see how things work out first.
But tentatively the next thing after that might be:


> Part C: Evaluate health of old growth.
> 
> Step???: At a stable point, try increasing only K to see what effect this has.


I am seeing some indications of mobile nutrients not being entirely right. Hygrophila polysperma and Tonina could clearly be much greener / deeper green in older growth. Pantanal gets really tattered old leaves (this might be carbon just based on this plants reputation). Ludwigia sp. Marilia is very quick to drop older leaves. Both Cuba and Pantanal should be bigger in diameter overall.
Current N dosing isnt particularly low compared to popular dosing regimes, as of last week its 2 N frontloaded and 2 N over the week (previously 1 N & 2 N).
That comes out to ~17 ppm as NO3. Based on this, nitrogen isnt really my first suspect. Carbon should be considered because it is highly mobile and also what the plant uses the most of. The overall level I would say is pretty good, and the flow is getting everywhere thanks to the two spray bars. Stability could be better, im not sure if fluctuations show up in old growth, I thought it was more associated with stunting and curling and general unhappiness in the growing point of the plant. I dont know for sure.
Ive mentioned I would like to try to raise K on its own just to see what happens, so this might be the first thing I'll try.

Ill be back on sunday for the regularly scheduled picture update  For now I hope you will enjoy this small montage of fat noodles falling out of a hole in the wood. It was dinner-o-clock















Hufsa said:


> View attachment 192534
> 
> View attachment 192535
> 
> To be continued


Oh and these seeds are from Cryptocoryne striolata "Mini". The seed pods never opened on their own, but when I carefully cracked one open a bunch of seemingly fully formed seeds popped out. 
I planted them in a tub of Aquasoil, will let you guys know if they sprout or not 🌱


----------



## Hufsa

"Empty" tank  with some relocated plants
Dont mind the floating Cryptocoryne, its going traveling tomorrow 😊




Stargrass still at ~75% green, im very keen to see the outcome over the coming week if it improves or not with the new micro mix.
Im really hoping it improves, that will mean I have the faintest clue what is going on, otherwise im going to have to start from scratch again 😵




Pantanals got pulled out of the Aquasoil pot and moved to the back wall, and they DIDNT stunt just from moving, which might sound pitiful to some but this is a record for my setup, pretty pleased with that 
One step closer to growing like a weed 
They still look hungry AF or something of the sort, and you can see they have a lot of slimy thread algae on old growth. No coincidence this.
The other quick growing plant species that are doing well at the moment are virtually algae free, while those that are not so happy like the Pantanal still have a lot of thread algae. 
I assume that its either a case of the plant not being able to defend those leaves, or that the plant is withdrawing stuff or leaking stuff from those leaves that cause the thread algae to grow there.



Even the two stunted tops I left behind in the Aquasoil are coming around now that their pushy brothers moved away.
Definitely seems like the tank has crossed over from "untenable" to "almost ok" territory for Pantanals.

Right now my tank contains many species of Ludwigia and just one species of Ammannia, so if it comes down to it and I have to pick, then I may have to go for conditions that the hungry Ludwigias find favorable.
I havent given up on Ammannia pedicellata Golden yet, but right now it is taking a back seat while I work on getting the all other plants happy.



 


Excuse the mess of Ludwigia sp. Marilia all over the tank, im trying to propagate more of this plant as quickly as I can.
Baby invitro H'ra is coming around, slowly.. The shoots have H'ra form now and some kind of color, but they are still super small. 
I remember the OJ and Pink/Rosa also took what felt like an eternity to gain full size from the invitro cups.



From left to right, pitiful Golden 😅 and newly trimmed trio of mid size plants. I think the Blyxa will like this corner better, a bit less light than the center of the tank. 
The crypts have been moved away from here, too much light here for them.






Left side two weeks ago, right side today. Might not be all the way there yet but much much better aint it 😍




Polysperma also stuck at ~75% green




Rotala rotundifolia "Orange Juice" took offense at something after the last trim and replant, not sure what. 
Some mild stunting and curling of the tops. Not losing any sleep over it unless it keeps happening.




Two of the Cuba stems are looking ok although small, while the other two stems are.. uh.. trying their best 🤭






No stunting of the Super Red this time 




R. mac has had a similar "err what" moment as the OJ.
The Myriophyllum sp. Guyana at the bottom of this picture needs to receive some sort of medal for "Least f**ks given" or something. 
This plant seems entirely oblivious to any nutrient issue or anything else going on with the tank, its just growing without any care in the world.
A definite 10/10 if you need something bombproof that doesnt grow fast.


----------



## shangman

Can’t wait to see what beautiful little gifts you’ve bought yourself! 😍 love a special Plant gift


----------



## Hufsa

Summary for present time @Happi and future Hufsa
*Current / yesterday & today forward*

"Front loaded Macro" (dosed on sunday after 75% WC based on full tank volume) (I didnt want to change anything about the macros now, wanted to see mainly effect of micro change)
2 N (100% KNO3) = 8.8 NO3
0.26 P = 0.8 PO4
5.92 K

"Daily dosed Macro" weekly ppms:
2 N (50% Urea & 50% KNO3) = 8.8 NO3
0.26 P = 0.8 PO4
3.12 K

Both macros total:
4 N = ~17 NO3 (Any nitrogen deficiency is unlikely imo when this one is relatively high)
0.52 P = 1.6 PO4
9.04 K

Micro (dosed daily) weekly ppms:
0.3 Fe (From 0.275 DTPA and 0.025 EDDHA)
0.15 Mn
0.06 B
0.06 Zn
0.018 Cu
0.009 Mo
0.0001 Ni
(No extra gluconate dosed this week)

Other details:
TDS before water change 153. After ~75% water change but before ferts TDS 123. Today after frontloaded macro and daily dose of macro and micro 134 TDS.
NO3 before water change possibly somewhere between 15-30 ppm*. This is an increase from the ~4-5 ppm* from previous weeks with lower macro dosing.
(*Usual disclaimer: Test kits may cause eye cancer, do not take too seriously)

Weekly water change of 75% is the new routine (until its not) 😁
Cleaning the two external canister filters alternately, this week the Ultramax, next week Eheim.


----------



## erwin123

The Toninas look fantastic! 

I've got some Toninas in my tank that I hope will adapt and grow... but in terms of their colour I would say that they are 'in between' these 2 photos - not as pale as the left, but lighter green that the wonderful green of the plants on the right... so I'm scrutinising the changes that you did between these two photos to figure out whether there is anything I can consider to help my Toninas...


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


erwin123 said:


> The Toninas look fantastic!





Hufsa said:


> Left side two weeks ago, right side today. Might not be all the way there yet but much much better aint it


They look much better. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## _Maq_

@Hufsa , I'd like to ask you about the Toninas. The comparison is indeed striking. However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis _improved_, or - as rules say - it's only _new_ leaves which look better now.
I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?


----------



## plantnoobdude

_Maq_ said:


> @Hufsa , I'd like to ask you about the Toninas. The comparison is indeed striking. However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis _improved_, or - as rules say - it's only _new_ leaves which look better now.
> I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?


You are looking at the plants from above, the new healthy growth is covering the old chlorosis growth.

On Slightly less related note; tonina leaves are arranged in accordance to golden ratio.  Beautiful!!! 😍

huge link sorry

https ://elhazar.tumblr.com/post/165979357760/the-mathematical-beauty-of-tonina-fluvalitis/amp

Purposely put space after https to avoid a huge image lol.


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> They look much better.


Nice to hear from you again Darrel 🥰



_Maq_ said:


> I'd like to ask you about the Toninas. The comparison is indeed striking. However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis _improved_, or - as rules say - it's only _new_ leaves which look better now.
> I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?


I believe the plants were suffering from an "Everything deficiency*" that fateful week when the before pictures were taken.
So not only chlorosis of new growth but also paleness of old growth.
A decrease in water changes and a small increase in fertilizer was basically what I changed to result in the "after" pictures.
I think old growth got greener again also as macro levels improved.

*For newer readers, my journal used to be called "Everything Deficiency" 😁 At one point the addendum "Thinking Toxicity" was added, as I am prone to overthinking and was messing around too much. Now the title is Consistency Deficiency, another personal failing of mine 😉 But enough of that



plantnoobdude said:


> You are looking at the plants from above, the new healthy growth is covering the old chlorosis growth.


I think you and Maq may be partially right, once a leaf has grown out chlorotic it tends to stay that way, *unless* it is still somewhat new, then I have observed that it may get greener as time goes by. It seems the plant is able to get some iron to the leaf eventually, alleviating some of the historical symptoms. I found a literature reference for this phenomenon but of course I cant remember where that was at the moment.
My older pictures showing Hydrocotyle Tripartita growing week by week displays this effect, where the newest leaves are chlorotic, and then they sort of fill in a little bit later on.
Its possible I have misunderstood the whole thing though.



plantnoobdude said:


> On Slightly less related note; tonina leaves are arranged in accordance to golden ratio.  Beautiful!!! 😍


Ah no wonder, Tonina is a favorite of mine and especially beautiful viewed from above. I like the simplistic almost cartoony leaves and the luminous green color that healthy stems display. Theres not many plants just like it 😍


----------



## _Maq_

We can see it in spring on trees that the very new leaves are light green and the colour gets deeper a bit later. Perhaps this is in some connection with your observation.
It makes me re-consider my opinion as to _when exactly_ a new leaf can be considered 'finished'.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> However, I can't see whether those very leaves suffering from chlorosis _improved_, or - as rules say - it's only _new_ leaves which look better now.
> I've been taught that leaves once chlorotic cannot repair, so?


I was wondering about that as well.  I didn't know if new leaves had grown in the three weeks?

Assuming they haven't? Then it must have been a combination of effects, one mobile element and one immobile one. Unfortunately I don't know enough about plant physiology to get any further.

cheers Darrel


----------



## _Maq_

dw1305 said:


> Assuming they haven't then it must have been a combination of effects, one mobile element and one immobile one.


One more explanation comes to my mind. The sequence of creating structural tissues first and then 'filling' the space in-between with chlorophyll?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> One more explanation comes to my mind. The sequence of creating structural tissues first and then 'filling' the space in-between with chlorophyll?


You can definitely get that. If you have chlorotic plants, where the deficiency is one of more of the mobile elements, you get an <"almost instant greening"> (chlorophyll synthesis <"Chlorophyll Biosynthesis in Higher Plants">) when you add the magic ingredient.

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


dw1305 said:


> Unfortunately I don't know enough about plant physiology to get any further.


Somebody else might though? I'm guessing that the answer lies somewhere in this bit, amongst the enzymes:


> ....... The Chlorophyll (Chl) biosynthesis pathway in higher plants is complex and is mediated by more than 17 enzymes........





> The formation of Chl can be subdivided into four parts: (1) synthesis of 5-aminolevulinic acid (ALA), the precursor of Chl and heme; (2) formation of a pyrrole ring porphobilinogen from the condensation reaction of two molecules of ALA and assembly of four pyrroles leading to the synthesis of the first closed tetrapyrrole having inversion of ring D, i.e., uroporphyrinogen III; (3) synthesis of protoporphyrin IX via several decarboxylation and oxygenation reactions, and (4) insertion of Mg to the protoporphyrin IX (PPIX) moiety steering it to the Mg-branch of tetrapyrrole synthesis leading to the formation of Chl........



cheers  Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

> ....... The Chlorophyll (Chl) biosynthesis pathway in higher plants is complex and is mediated by more than 17 enzymes........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The formation of Chl can be subdivided into four parts: (1) synthesis of 5-aminolevulinic acid (ALA), the precursor of Chl and heme; (2) formation of a pyrrole ring porphobilinogen from the condensation reaction of two molecules of ALA and assembly of four pyrroles leading to the synthesis of the first closed tetrapyrrole having inversion of ring D, i.e., uroporphyrinogen III; (3) synthesis of protoporphyrin IX via several decarboxylation and oxygenation reactions, and (4) insertion of Mg to the protoporphyrin IX (PPIX) moiety steering it to the Mg-branch of tetrapyrrole synthesis leading to the formation of Chl........
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Hufsa see plant
Plant no green
Put stuff in tank
Maybe green
Yess


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Hufsa see plant
> Plant no green
> Put stuff in tank
> Maybe green
> Yess


Pretty much the same for me, which is why plant physiology (and <"biochemistry generally">) remains a knowledge black-hole for me. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## plantnoobdude

Grown under full EI and 1.0ppm Fe from apfuk micro nutrients.







Swapped to tenso at 0.1ppm Fe dtpa and 0.067 Mn EDTA. Very Very quick greening response, within a few days the tips showed greener colours.


Currently they look like this,






Crowns nice and big, no deficiency. Over one inch width. Using my own custom mix.
0.0875 Fe weekly. Grown it as Low as 0.0125 Fe weekly, but it needs lowwwww gh for that to happen. At the time I was running something like 1 shh.


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> View attachment 193150View attachment 193151
> Crowns nice and big, no deficiency. Over one inch width. Using my own custom mix.
> 0.0875 Fe weekly. Grown it as Low as 0.0125 Fe weekly, but it needs lowwwww gh for that to happen. At the time I was running something like 1 shh.


Hmm one inch is.. _checks guide to stupid-measurements_ ..2.54 cm 😉
Mine still have a little bit to gain in size then.
I wonder if we can directly compare green color, your seem slightly denser on chlorophyll, but mine has a much more yellow lime tone, I think this may be to the high yellow tones of my light vs the basically missing yellow spectrum of yours.
So overall intensity might be comparable but not hue, if that makes sense 🤔


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I wonder if we can directly compare green color, your seem slightly denser on


Hmm I’m trying to think of something.but I’m not sure, take a picture out in daylight? Seems stupid lol.


Hufsa said:


> I think this may be to the high yellow tones of my light vs the basically missing yellow spectrum of yours.


yeah I think so.


Hufsa said:


> So overall intensity might be comparable but not hue, if that makes sense 🤔


Perhaps? Those tonina are being blasted by something like 150-200 par tho.


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> Hmm I’m trying to think of something.but I’m not sure, take a picture out in daylight? Seems stupid lol.


Good idea, except we have a special much better premium sun in Norway that we pay extra for.. so it wont really look the same... Just kidding. I will try to remember to grab a photo next time I uproot them 😄


----------



## Hufsa

Preciousesss.. shiny shiny preciouses 

This weeks update is gonna be a doozy


----------



## Hufsa

Not the sunday update but just a weird little mini guide / ramble about coconut caves and attaching rhizome plants
Blame @KirstyF , she wanted to see pics and then it turned into this 

I was making another hut for my fat noodles earlier, they loved the one I made with Queen Moss, although they have complained that there was only one entrance (facing towards me).
Something about a fire hazard and OSHA violations, but I think they're just using that excuse because they want to be able to sneak in from the back side and get to the feeding area out front while feeling nice and snug 😏
One of the new shinies is the new Anubias "Mini Coin", this thing is super stinkin cute!
If it stays even half as cute with steroids CO2 then ill be really happy 😃 (The pangolino I got turned into a huge monster, although it might have been the slightly bigger Aquaflora version)
Im making a low profile half coconut shell with three wide entrances.
One of my goals lately is to use as many hollow pieces of hardscape as I can, this makes it so that planting space doubles as living space for my dear critters 💗 (Needs must when youre always running out of room!)
So this one is just gonna look like a mound of Anubias, but will actually be a super secret hideout for 2-cool-4-skool noodles 😎 and pregnant skrimps.
The silvery noodle I call the Long Serpent is still around and kicking, he has decided that hes too good for showing up for peasants, so he usually comes darting in every feeding, grabs a big mouthful then notices me observing him and snorts something like "freakin paparazzi!" before he blasts off to wherever he likes to spend his day! ⚡💨






The cave itself, I reused an old bit of coconut because as they say _recycling is in_ but mostly because I was too lazy to scoop out gross coconut from a new one when I could just chop off a few bits of an old one.
Theres holes in it from before, not sure what the idea was with that, doesnt really matter. The anubias will have good airflow on their feet I guess 😁




This is how I imagine it will sit, since my sand is so fine grained the hut will likely sink into the substrate a bit, so I made sure to have some allowance for that.
Sinking the feet in should keep it nice and stable despite inhabitants digging around a little bit as they do. Just imagine the sand line goes halfway up the back support as well 😅




With the Mini Coin carefully glued on. From tissue culture, there were three main clumps in the pot, but with careful separation I got 20 individual crowns/plantlets out of the 3 😄
Lucky for me all the bits had a good amount of roots, so I was able to glue them down with the glue touching only roots. I only use glue if I absolutely have to because 1. Ugly and 2. Plants dont like it.
If you get glue on rhizome it may melt immediately (days), or it may melt months to a year down the road, when the rhizome wants to expand but is unable to because of the glue. The plant then gets rid of the old rhizome and voila plants are no longer attached there and potentially need reattaching completely. The goal is only to hold the plant down on the hardscape long enough for it to set out new roots that will be attached.
The plant usually abandons the roots that were glued after that because, again plants dont like being glued (I dont either)
These Anubias had so long roots that I actually trimmed most of them down to 1 - 1,5cm. Its a bit of a risk because if growth conditions arent good in your tank then you might be setting the plants up for failure.
But in this case with CO2 injection and plant health generally being ok I decided to take the risk, it made the gluing process easier to not have a ton of long roots everywhere.




The end result looks like hot garbage and this is intentional. Im way too cheap to buy more than one pot of any plant, ever.
Im not an aquascaper so im not in a particular hurry, I prefer buying just one pot and propagating from there. This allows me to use the money saved on other precious shinies, of which there are many 🤩
If you were an aquascaper you would buy 3-4 pots of this Mini Coin and glue the 3 original clumps from the pot (times 3-4) directly onto wherever you want it. That makes it look the most "grown in" in a minimal amount of time.
But since im playing the long game I dont mind that this hut will look very bad for several months.

Some anubias varieties grow upwards, while some grow sideways, but no matter which it is, there is a front/top and an end to every rhizome.



When im planting I want these growing front/tops to face in multiple directions. When the group grows in, this will make it fill in much nicer and prevent bare looking areas of only rhizome ends.
Once these plants have put out roots and established themselves I am going to pinch out the growing points all over. This will cause them to branch lower down on the rhizome and lead to a fuller group.
Ruthless trimming at exactly the right times and under good conditions (the plants need to be healthy enough to bounce back) will lead to a very compact bush of anubias (or other plant like it).
I hope to have a very cute little cave covered with "Mini Coin" in a years time. Fortunately the noodles and shrimp dont care that it looks janky right now and will take it into use immediately 😊

Will try to snap some shots of the noodles and the "celebrity" to include on sunday


----------



## The Miniaturist

That's fantastic @Hufsa! It looks like the villain's hideout in "The Spy Who Loved Me", your noodles will love it I'm sure! 😄


----------



## KirstyF

So…..you’ve planted them specifically in different directions and have a plan to pinch out and trim at the exact right time to ensure fuller growth and an ultimately compact and natural looking bush of precious’s. 

Sorry…did you say you weren’t an aquascaper!! 😉

I think this is exactly what aquascaping should be all about. Nothing wrong with the long game! 😊

These are gonna look fab and even your Diva noodle should be very happy with the des res. 😍


----------



## Hufsa

Im gonna divide this sunday update into two parts because I think its just a little bit more digestible that way, otherwise there would be a lot of photos 😅




FTS, drop checker is a different color to the usual one as I usually take the FTS much later in the day.
Im doing another PH profile today (or the lazy man's version) but I think I am a little limited by the accuracy of the PH pen.
0.2 accuracy just makes it difficult to know if im actually staying within a 0.1 variance 🤔
Then again, if Josh is right then all that is needed is to just ensure "excess" when the plants get going. Who knows.

Ill do a health update on the plants later today, im as curious about it as the rest of you because I havent checked the plants from above this week at all  So im very keen to see what the photos show.
The FTS is not usable to determine health because my phone camera struggles a lot with the contrast between bright and dim parts a lot. So the white you see on Marilia, Tonina and Polysperma isnt accurate.




My little candied friends continue to do well, im really happy about it. It might not seem like much but it just means a lot to me for various reasons.
Some of them are berried now (carrying eggs), and berried shrimp tend to become very shy. I only occasionally see the mamas meandering around in the bushy undergrowth.
The picture above didnt turn out good focus wise, but I just love the expression on the chili rasbora on the right  "Pay attention to meeeeeeee!"
I know chilis are common fish, but they are one of my favorites. They bring life to the upper areas of my tank without making things seem hectic.
They are also supremely gentle and never cause any issues with my other critters. As shown in the photos they are also little piggies and like to be fed *now please!* 😘
They never let me forget if I have missed a feeding 🥰






I also saw last night that I am becoming a grandmother, three of the Cryptocoryne striolata "Mini" seeds have sprouted in the tub, I hope more will follow.
The cold of autumn is coming in, I absolutely love it but now I am a little worried about how Im going to keep all my emersed plants warm enough through the winter.
Most of them are tropical plants after all.
Our building is very old and drafty, so to save on energy bills and the constant battle with the inevitable entropy of the universe, we usually heat the rooms to only a moderate temperature through winter.
My orchids have done ok with this for years, but this year I will have emersed cultures of stemplants, mosses I dont have room for in the tank, and now tiny baby crypts.
*I would gratefully receive tips on the cheapest way to keep the cultures from getting too cold.*
Maybe one of those heating mats made for placing under terrariums?

I mentioned new shiny preciouses, and boy have there been a lot.
Im not sure what happened exactly, I seem to have suffered from a terrible lapse of will power and impulse control, and one order of plants suddenly turned into three 
So many shinies were able to be moved from the wish list to the plants I keep list 😍
Some of them have also been sitting at the very very top of the wanted list for a long time, so I am almost overwhelmed with preciouses

*The list:
Bolbitis heteroclita "Cuspidata"*
- This one is a variety of heteroclita that apparently does quite well under water. There are a lot of so-called "Bolbitis sp." around with collectors, but I feel like many of them look very unhappy to be under water, and I prefer plants that look like they are having a reasonably good time, and that you dont have to use a microscope to see. This one is recommended in Christel Kasselmann's book, and grows larger and fuller under water than the commonly sold Bolbitis heteroclita difformis (which I personally feel is a pretty lousy aquarium plant)
*Hymenasplenium Obscurum "Dark Spleenwort" (Asplenium cf. Normale / Crepidomanes sp. "Auriculatum")*
- Including all the names this fern has had through the years makes for a bit of a mouthful 😅 This one is a really beautiful fern that I think could become quite popular if given the opportunity to spread in the hobby. It grows to a decent size, larger than the cuspidata but smaller than the regular Bolbitis heudelotii. This plant can actually be seen in the 2nd ranked aquascape for the IAPLC 2022
*Crepidomanes sp. Javanicus*
- This Crepidomanes has a very beautiful leaf, unfortunately I wasnt able to find a lot of pictures of it when I was doing my _plant goblin research._ Crepidomanes species seem to be very slow growing, although many keep them in no CO2 tanks that are unfertilized, so I think there may be more potential growth to be unlocked there. Also I have heard that the different varieties/species differ in how well they do under water. This makes a lot of sense, they are a diverse family from all over the world.
*Crepidomanes sp. Vietnam III*
- I added this one as well, I prefer the Crepidomanes varieties with a slightly bigger leaf, I think it will help the plant group to look less like a clump of liverwort/moss and more like a fern.
*Brownie Ghost 2011-2012*
- The impulse buy to end all impulse buys 
Plantnoobdude had asked me why I didnt get some BG2011 while I was placing an order, and I prompty replied that there was no way I was spending 80 euro on ONE PLANT 🤯😵
Somehow it still got added in at the very last minute  Right now the price that I had to pay is preventing me from enjoying the plant at all.
Its definitely one of the most beautiful buces, even the little cutting has a very strong purple color in sunlight and under my relatively neutral lights.
But there are a few other varieties of buce that display the same "class" of color and intensity, they are pricy but not nearly as pricy as BG2011. Its a pretty simple case of demand driving the prices up.
My plan is to grow this one, sell one cutting for roughly the same price, and then maybe I will finally be able to enjoy this buce after that, once it has paid off its debt to me 
Until then all I can feel when I look at it is 







*Oh god theres more:
Rotala macrandra "Mini Type 4"*
- Smaller and slightly pickier version of regular macrandra. What could possibly go wrong?
*Ludwigia glandulosa*
- Ive wanted this one since I was a kid, but never got it because I heard it needed CO2 injection. Hope I can get it reasonably purple, it will probably come down to light intensity and some part spectrum. No blurple lights though, I would rather die 
*Ludwigia polycarpa*
- Spur of the moment addition, tempted to call it "Ammania pedicellata Golden for losers" although some might find that offensive 😂
*Bacopa caroliniana "Colorata"*
- Because why not. I can also use this to gauge my light levels, I believe it only turns solid pink under quite strong light intensity.

While my moss and fern collectoritis is definitely more under control now, the stem collectoritis is still raging wildly through my system.
I think it is compounded by me now having CO2 and being "technically" able to grow whatever I want. Theres so many pretty flowery stemplants out there 🥰
Since I am new to high tech tanks I also havent gotten completely bored of trimming plants weekly yet either.




*Hygrophila pinnatifida 'Uttara Kannada' / UK*
- Hello darkness my old friend...  @Karmicnull
Isnt there a thing where you go out and get a "new better model" to replace something that you could not keep?
Regular pinnatifida, my old nemesis, was so mean to me in low tech 😢 So mean, so cruel.
I went and got the rarer variant just to spite it, and im hoping it will grow this time around, otherwise this is going to get embarrassing 😅
This one, also called "UK" (no affiliation with the country) is from a region called Uttara Kannada. It is characterized by a tendency to go more red and deeper lobes in the leaf.
I have no idea what color this is going to turn in my tank or if I even prefer it to the regular kind. We will see.
*Anubias barteri var. nana 'Mini Coin'*
Cutest plant of the year! Clear new favorite anubias, in fact I sold all my petite and steroid-pangolino, Mini Coin is the new thing 🥰 Hope it doesnt grow too big 
*Vesicularia sp. "Tortoise"*
This one wasnt entirely planned either, there is very little documentation on this moss available, no pics of how it looks submersed.
Apparently it came in on the roots of Bucephalandra sp. "Tortoise", hence the name.
My inital impression is skeptical, growing in the tissue culture cup it has a lot of brown rhizome/roots, giving it a pretty brown appearance overall.
I put some in a mesh sandwhich on the left side panel of the tank, and will document how it grows out. The rest was put in an emersed culture.




The rest should be on their way soon:
Pteridophyta sp. "Niah"
Didymoglossum sp. "Buea Goliath"
Bucephalandra Moss
Fissidens sp. Miroshaki
Fissidens sp. Mallorca
maybe Rotala rotundifolia Blood Red SG
Will write more on these when they arrive 

Are you dizzy yet? I know I am 

A few random photos while everyone is recovering



Flower thing on Schismatoglottis prietoi? Not seen this before 




My Bucephalandra Dark Achilles continues to do well, I especially like the contrast between the peachy underside of the new leaf vs the dark bluish grey of the mature leaves.
I hope the amount of BBA will decrease soon, its kinda ruining the look of my slowest growers.
Theres still a lot more misc buce that needs to go from this corner. I shoved a lot of them under the Bolbitis for now 😅




Collectoritis: Not even once



With labels. Some of the new additions are only here temporarily, I dont want to blast them with light right after arrival. I believe they all come from no CO2 no ferts tanks as they are very small.
I didnt want to shock them by putting them through all the changes right off the bat.
When I was moving over all the crypts from the right side of the tank, I was able to pull off daughter plants from several of them.
Especially exciting is the twin daughters (they are still attached to each other) that came off the Striolata Tiger.



Both of the striolatas seem to have been very stressed by living on the right hand side, I assume it is the light being too high for them.
Right now they are both very curled and twisted, I think the leaves might have been bending backwards so much because they were trying to get away from the lights.
I have heard that crypts in low light conditions will have more stretched upright leaves, while those in a lot of light will lie flat on the substrate. I dont know if this is correct or not though.
If I can get the striolatas to put out fuller less curly leaves, I think a group of 3 striolata Tigers will look very striking.
Im undecided if I am going to keep the Striolata Mini. Might pass this on to someone else that wants it, then finding a place for it wont be my problem any more 😁
If the seeds make it then Im definitely going to need a lot of new homes for them 😅


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Plantnoobdude had asked me why I didnt get some BG2011 while I was placing an order, and I prompty replied that there was no way I was spending 80 euro on ONE PLANT 🤯😵
> Somehow it still got added in at the very last minute  Right now the price that I had to pay is preventing me from enjoying the plant at all.


Always glad to help


Hufsa said:


> I believe it only turns solid pink under quite strong light intensity.


Correcto, only turned solid pink under 80% strength plus from my wrgb in my tank!


Hufsa said:


> I also saw last night that I am becoming a grandmother, three of the Cryptocoryne striolata "Mini" seeds have sprouted in the tub, I hope more will follow.


very nice, will be a good year before they become decent sized plants lol.

FTS looks lovely and I love how the buce Achilles look! Looking forward to the plant health pics, (let the super-zooming-in commence!)


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> I would gratefully receive tips on the cheapest way to keep the cultures from getting too cold.


What do you call too cold? I can tell you, I'm very poor person even by Czech standards. 17°C is quite normal temperature in my living room during winter, in bedroom sometimes even less. Plants both submerged and emerged can survive comfortably such temperatures, all species (known to me). Well, most plants take a winter rest, though, they don't grow much.


Hufsa said:


> *Ludwigia glandulosa*
> - Ive wanted this one since I was a kid, but never got it because I heard it needed CO2 injection.


It doesn't. What it truly requires is acidic water. It gets dark violet even with moderate lighting. If you don't believe me, you'll force me to fish some pics.


----------



## Hufsa

Ive just spent about 5 hours doing a lot of trimming, maintenance and the usual water change as well as some water testing.
I am absolutely exhausted right now, I would love to write a whole essay on all sortsof things but I might have to keep things a little minimal right now and get back to it later 😅
"Oh no!" I hear you exclaim. "Your long ramblings are the highlight of my day!" you cry.
But unfortunately my friends it will have to be this way. Its a cruel world indeed.

_Commence minimalistic Hufsa_




This plant group was too rowdy. Wanted to try something new. Took chainsaw to the entire thing. See later pictures.




Fat chonk.



Feesh.







Pretty flower plant.






Not all the way there. Moderate disappoint. Confusion. Elaborate later.




Was replant. Might angry.






Ok.




Angry this week. 2/3 of group stunted. Maybe CO2 bad. Cut off all the tops, start again.








Worse. Strange.







Also bit angry.




Glandulosa for the records.




Old leaf on Marilia, plants withdrawing something?




Very happy Bolbitis from Darrel. Did a big grow and then stayed medium size. Optimistic that its smaller than standard.
Weird stuff is pearling under leaves.







Pretty colors on preciouses




Open sandy area for fish, also known as baby plant nursery





Did plant trimming at this point.
Thought I would include more about maintenance so people dont get the wrong idea.
New FTS taken after trimming, before water change and maintenance.






Practicing plant skills on Tonina.




Sorry about bad photos. Care levels critically low at this point.




Noodles complained about stuff. Rearranged for them. Will elaborate later.

Beep boop.
Minimalist Hufsa out 🤖


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Old leaf on Marilia, plants withdrawing something?


Possibly magnesium.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Possibly magnesium.


Really?
I find that really unlikely, the tank gets 10ppm per week



_Maq_ said:


> What do you call too cold? I can tell you, I'm very poor person even by Czech standards. 17°C is quite normal temperature in my living room during winter, in bedroom sometimes even less. Plants both submerged and emerged can survive comfortably such temperatures, all species (known to me). Well, most plants take a winter rest, though, they don't grow much.


Hmm well I was hoping to keep them growing through the winter, so maybe around 22 degrees or so could make a good target to stay around.
Part of my concern is very cold drafts from open windows and stuff like that. From us periodically opening windows in winter to improve air quality.
We also have a very fluffy dog that loves to sleep with her nose out of a partially opened window, so she demands this periodically as well, even mid winter 😅
I suppose a terrarium heating mat wont do much for drafts either though..
I might just need to turn the oven in the kitchen up a bit 😢



_Maq_ said:


> It doesn't. What it truly requires is acidic water.


I suspected it might be more the case, still somehow I never quite worked up the courage to try before.


_Maq_ said:


> It gets dark violet even with moderate lighting. If you don't believe me, you'll force me to fish some pics.


Hopeful to get some nice dark purple then even without super bright light 😊
I wont force any pictures but I would gratefully look at them if you want to share


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> I wont force any pictures but I would gratefully look at them if you want to share


With Ammannia crassicaulis. No CO2, acidic water, moderate lighting 7 hrs a day. Never mind the algae/fungi - it was an experiment.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Very happy Bolbitis from Darrel. Did a big grow and then stayed medium size. Optimistic that its smaller than standard.


I think I have <"two different smaller _Bolbitis heudelotti_">_. _I think @Hufsa  got one of each, but <"I'm not entirely sure">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> I think @Hufsa  got one of each


Yes you sent me two samples 🥰
The other one is planted to the left of the one I pictured, its taking a little longer to recover from my overly vigorous hitchhiker treatment, but it too is coming around and putting on good mass 

I hope to be able to identify them at some point, for now they are just called A and B for me to keep track of them.
My working theory is that they could be the varieties called "Compact/Kompact" and "Prothallium", but so far I dont know which is which.



dw1305 said:


> got one of each, but <"I'm not entirely sure">.


Unless you are saying youre not sure if you sent me the two different ones, or two samples of the same plant?


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


Hufsa said:


> Unless you are saying youre not sure if you sent me the two different ones, or two samples of the same plant?


That one unfortunately. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

dw1305 said:


> That one unfortunately.


Oh, oops 🤭 I suppose we shall see then! If they grow out practically identical then I will assume they were the same plant 😄
Im super happy to have them whether they are one or two 🥰


----------



## Hufsa

I mentioned I also did some water testing last night

The TDS has remained pretty consistent, about 151 before the 75% water change, and 135 the next day (so including the front loaded ferts and the macro & micro doses for one day).
It doesnt really matter so much what this so-called TDS consists of, im just trying to monitor the consistency from week to week. (I am aware that we are not in fact measuring TDS but instead conductivity.)
Compared to last week which was 153 and 134 respectively, it seems to be about the same level.
I think ~150-130 before-after is a better span to be in than the 220-120 before-after I would often have when I was dosing EI for my low tech setup. An increase of 100 TDS over one week is just excessively excessive.
Im not saying its necessarily harmful, just excessive.

On a different note, im not a huge fan of the concept of build up. Like, I dont want my nutrients to "hit the right levels" 4+ weeks later.
I want the nutrients to be where they need to be within a week, and I want them to stay there and not go wandering off much.
Front loading half the macros and then doing a 75% weekly water change seems to be working for this so far.
Im doing weekly water changes for now, but when I have most of the plants growing healthily and no big algae issues, I would like to try to find a good spot where I can do water changes every other week instead.
Part of living with a disability is the need to pace myself and find ways to do things that I will be able to keep up with in the long run.
My tank has a light stocking of fish, and I really dont think biweekly water changes will affect their wellbeing at all. But going to biweekly would mean a lot for my wellbeing, so I hope I can find a routine where everything still stays consistent nutrient wise.

Even though I am a bit more awake right now, Im still very much feeling the fatigue from the extra long maintenance I did yesterday.
Sometimes I need a few days just to recover from the sunday. This is definitely going to be one of those 😓
Ive been cleaning my one of my filters every week, and I have noticed that when I do this there is nothing to come out of the sponges, and very little detritus in the water.
Basically doing one filter every week is entirely overkill for my tank and Im going to start doing one every other week, alternating between them. So Eheim once a month and Aquael once a month, with two weeks between.
The intake meshes and the skimmer should be done at every water change though, I get this done most of the times but not always.

Back to testing 😅
If we are to believe the nitrate test (and this is a pretty big if), there was around 15-17~ ppm NO3 in my water column before this water change.
This was somewhat of a decrease since last week, where the reading was right between 15 and 30 (So maybe 20-25)
If we believe this, then it might indicate that the plants have been uptaking more nitrogen this week.
If the plants were struggling with iron or manganese or whatever before but are doing better now, then it would be plausible that overall growth would improve and uptake would increase.
This is the fiddly bit about nutrients and uptake and all of that, the demands are not independent of each other, and we're constantly looking at a moving living system that doesnt stay static.
I think it would be a mistake to get stuck in very static thinking and ideas when we are applying it so something that is so very much not.
Based on what I have tried so far it looks like my dosing might be going towards more APT Complete/APT EI levels rather than typical lean.
Im not particularly concerned about where I end up, im just looking to achieve plant growth that is satisfactory to me, and I dont really care about all the "politics" surrounding this.
I will say that so far it seems to me that lean dosing might be unsuitable or at least very hard to get right with inert substrate. I have mentioned that I didnt mind trying to "thread the needle", but if the plants arent happy then nothing is being threaded. I suppose that soon I will "officially" be departing from the Marschner/Epstein ratios when it comes to macros as well. There are lingering issues that I cant ignore, and when my plants and my gut instinct is leading me somewhere then that is where I am going. So im going to increase the K a lot next week, from 9 or so that it is now to 15 at least. This is to see if it will fix or help some of the issues im seeing with very conspicuously tattered old growth and very brittle stems.

I got two more tests to help me get a little better understanding of where my tank is. From what I have heard, they are not as problematic as the nitrate test when it comes to reliability.
Because I have had times where I know I have added a ton of KNO3 and have gotten a low nitrate test result (earlier in the journal), but for the most part the results seem consistent with what I would expect.
Im not going to rely on them completely, but I am curious to see if they are suggesting what I am already thinking, or not.
So for this week we also have values for phosphate and iron, JBL tests. I didnt get potassium, the test costs a fair bit and I just didnt want to spend that much on tests for now.
I couldnt get the cheaper refill for potassium since I need that special tube to perform the test.
I will be testing once weekly going forward to use as supplemental information, and then once I get something that works well for my tank I will stop testing as I dont see the need.
Phosphate was sitting around 0.6-0.7 and Iron came out to 0.1.
This is the first time I have used these tests at all, so im not sure if the results should be considered low, ok or high. Probably not high if my tank is taking me into low/medium EI territory.
Since im not sure what to make of it, feel free to chime in with your personal opinion on these values, even @Hanuman 


I also did an hourly PH profile yesterday, I saw the values shifting a little bit when the plants really got going, which is not supposed to happen.
I discovered that the spray bar had moved slightly again, so I put it back the way it was supposed to be and increased the injection somewhat.
The plumbing sorely needs an overhaul, I want to remake the U bends and I need a system that wont shift around so easily (as @Yugang has made me more aware of).
Im having issues with the suction cup slipping causing alterations in the surface agitation, and I need some sort of marker on the insertion of the tube so that I rotate it the same amount every time its cleaned.
Basically its all out of whack and it needs nailing down and improving.
This could definitely explain the tantrum of the Rotala OJ (this is not a tantrum prone plant), and the iffy unhappiness of the regular R. mac.

Im not sure what the deal is with Tonina, it got worse this week.
I was optimistically as always expecting that extra Mn and traces where going to get me the rest of the way, but it didnt seem to do that.
While I was doing maintenance I noticed that the micro autodosing line was halfway empty, thats definitely not supposed to happen.
I ran the doser manually to fill it up again, and I will be checking it daily to make sure it behaves. I cant have equipment malfunctioning going on while im trying to work out growth issues, that will drive me insane 
Unfortunately dosing things manually will *not* be reliable, so I rely on the equipment working as its supposed to.
Definitely need to run another week with the same stuff to see if any kinks smooth themselves out or not.

As a nice little note, theres very little thread algae left in the tank now  I havent been pulling out many clumps at all.
Only on the Pantanal (because of angry) and some of the mosses that are in the bright light. BBA is a different story, a fair bit of that on the slow growers at the moment 
There is an increasing amount of green spot algae. Im curious if there really is any truth to the whole phosphate green spot algae thing.
Ill try increasing that too in a bit, but K first because I wanna see what happens


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> This is the first time I have used these tests at all, so im not sure if the results should be


You know what I’m gonna say…. Known standard😂


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> You know what I’m gonna say…. Known standard😂


I sorta meant if people think the values should be higher or sound ok. As for the accuracy, I just dont have the spare energy to make up standards to compare to right now, I wish I had 😟 It took me most of the day just to finish up that post.
So lets just pretend they are reasonably accurate for now. If my dosing is going more towards something like medium EI then getting extremely accurate results should matter less, no?


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> I sorta meant if people think the values should be higher or sound ok.


I think your test results are in line with the level of ferts you dose the tank. Whilst I don't test these days I think these tests are accurate enough for our purposes. 


Hufsa said:


> I have mentioned that I didnt mind trying to "thread the needle", but if the plants arent happy then nothing is being threaded.


Been down that rabbit hole myself mate and it didn't work for whatever reason. Hate to see you stressed about this, we live, we learn. 
It's better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> I sorta meant if people think the values should be higher or sound ok. As for the accuracy, I just dont have the spare energy to make up standards to compare to right now, I wish I had 😟 It took me most of the day just to finish up that post.
> So lets just pretend they are reasonably accurate for now. If my dosing is going more towards something like medium EI then getting extremely accurate results should matter less, no?


Fair enough, 

As for potassium, yeah I mean, a huge amount of tanks run APT complete levels, so try clone macros off that, and use the last most successful micro mix? Just an idea. Maybe quarter urea and 3/4 No3?
If I remember correctly standard EI wasn’t working well for you at all? (Guessing that’s where  the chlorosis issue)So it wouldn’t make much sense to go back there. 

If I assume correctly, would it be fair to say the majority of issues were present when you were dosing EI as well?


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> I think your test results are in line with the level of ferts you dose the tank. Whilst I don't test these days I think these tests are accurate enough for our purposes.


Thanks, yeah that kinda makes sense, its about 1/3 of what I dose for both now that I look at it that way.
Interestingly my tank didnt turn pink this week, so I think the plants helped themselves to some more iron than before.


John q said:


> Been down that rabbit hole myself mate and it didn't work for whatever reason. Hate to see you stressed about this, we live, we learn.
> It's better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all.


Eh im not particularly stressed about it, other than when people get really up in arms (on both sides). I just want to try stuff and see what sticks without people mocking me or getting upset about stuff.
I feel like I have learned a lot (and im definitely not done learning), so its been interesting. Although it is a little frustrating to think back on that a big part of the problem ive been having these months may have been caused by the water changes 



plantnoobdude said:


> As for potassium, yeah I mean, a huge amount of tanks run APT complete levels, so try clone macros off that, and use the last most successful micro mix? Just an idea. Maybe quarter urea and 3/4 No3?


Thats one of the things thats been bugging me for a while. Why does so many mixes (even big commercial hydroponic ones) use a bit more K. Maybe it is like Calcium, where the plant doesnt actually need a ton, but we find somehow that having a bit more just seems to make things run smoothly. I dont think there is anyone arguing that the plants actually need 4-6 GH worth of Calcium and Magnesium to grow, but there sure are a lot of people remineralizing to this range. What we put in the tank and what goes in the plant isnt necessarily the same after all.



plantnoobdude said:


> If I remember correctly standard EI wasn’t working well for you at all? (Guessing that’s where  the chlorosis issue)So it wouldn’t make much sense to go back there.
> If I assume correctly, would it be fair to say the majority of issues were present when you were dosing EI as well?


Thats kind of the problem. Since I only started using CO2 injection in february, we dont have a "before" baseline for my tank with high growth rate. I was dosing 0.5 DTPA iron for a few weeks with pretty bad chlorosis, but I was also doing those really big water changes at the same time. So im not sure really. I would like to try to reproduce that issue, but as always there's a very long list of things I would like to try 🤭 and now that im being extra good about not doing them all at once, I have to prioritize even harder.

My goal is still to have a low-ish amount of excess in my tank. I dont want to compromise plant growth, but with my health being up and down in periods it would be a relief for things not to go all out of whack if I suddenly need to do just one water change per month for a bit. I cant really plan for it because I dont know when it will happen next. So I want a stable tank with nice plants that can take a little bit of a beating occasionally. As ive said before im really just looking to find something that works for my setup and my life 🤷‍♀️


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Why does so many mixes (even big commercial hydroponic ones) use a bit more K.



_*"plants grown in the presence of NO3– take up and accumulate more K+ than when grown with NH4+. However, little is known about the direct influences produced by one ion on the transport of the other (Coskun et al., 2017)."*_

Do hydroponic fertilisers usually contain plenty of ammoniacal nitrogen? If not then the above may explain the need for extra potassium, also higher gh, maybb be influence the need for higher K. They kinda go hand In hand I think. Must admit I haven’t read the whole thing… but I need to soon😄

*Potassium plays an essential role as counter-ion of NO3–, facilitating the uptake, translocation, and distribution of these ions between roots and shoots (Engels and Marschner, 1993; Zhang et al., 2010; *_*Rodenas*_


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> _*"plants grown in the presence of NO3– take up and accumulate more K+ than when grown with NH4+. However, little is known about the direct influences produced by one ion on the transport of the other (Coskun et al., 2017)."*_
> 
> Do hydroponic fertilisers usually contain plenty of ammoniacal nitrogen? If not then the above may explain the need for extra potassium, also higher gh, maybb be influence the need for higher K. They kinda go hand In hand I think. Must admit I haven’t read the whole thing… but I need to soon😄
> 
> *Potassium plays an essential role as counter-ion of NO3–, facilitating the uptake, translocation, and distribution of these ions between roots and shoots (Engels and Marschner, 1993; Zhang et al., 2010; *_*Rodenas*_


Very interesting, I need to check more of the hydroponic ones to answer that, I will for sure get back to you but it might take me a few days before I can do it 

I ran into an obstacle with researching hydroponic mixes, that being that some of the brands have an absolutely ridiculously huge lineup of ferts complete with elaborate drawings on the packaging and all manner of nonsense, and absolutely no info to be found on what they contain, not even on the manufacturers website.
It seems with hydroponics being an even newer fad than aquascaping, the amount of (excuse the french) bullsh*t that the marketing departments are up to are at record breaking levels.
Last time I was trying to look into it I had to step away from the computer for a while, as the concept of a *Cotton Candy Flavored Bud Growth Hyper 2000 Ultimate Tuesdays* nutrient mix existing made me somewhat nauseated and looking to get off the planet at the next available stop.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


plantnoobdude said:


> Do hydroponic fertilisers usually contain plenty of ammoniacal nitrogen


<"Some do">, <"some don't">.

Ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) gives you most <"bang for your buck"> (after urea (CO(NH2)2)) and neither adds another nutrient. 

Potassium nitrate (KNO3) is usually regarded more as a potassium source, rather then a nitrogen one, although it obviously supplies both nutrients.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Hufsa

@plantnoobdude I turned the fish tank lights back on just to take these pictures for you, you better 'preciate! 

Also hello everyone else  I am somewhat back from my month long absence(not really absent tho I was lurking)





Behold the tank in all its half-maintained glory:



I took one photo where the stems are visible..
..and one photo where the buce are visible




If anyone is wondering what happened to the java ferns.. scissors. Scissors happened to the java ferns.
The problem with java ferns and bolbitis for that matter, is that you cant really tell that its growing.
But one day you realise that the plant group has gotten ginormous, way bigger than it was supposed to, and when did this even happen?
Where did all these bucketfuls of java fern come from anyway?
The trident had gotten massive (again), and this time I took all the leaves off and stripped away some of the rhizomes too for good measure. New rhizomes continually grow over the older ones, and they will kill off the older ones given enough time. Leading to the plant creeping out in base size, slowly but surely until your entire tank is just java fern 
The Windelow didnt deserve the scissor treatment, in fact it had only just regrown all its leaves since the last buzz cut it got when I installed the bolbitiseses from Darrel.
But I needed to plant the Bolbitis heteroclita cuspidata below it, and it would have shaded the new baby too much. So off with its head again! It will grow back, im not concerned although I do feel a little bit bad about mistreating it so.

My tank is still getting the same ferts from a month ago, which past-Hufsa helpfully laid out for me here. How did she know I would forget!?
Except ive only done one water change in a month 🤭
To be honest, tank doesnt seem to care.
The water eventually turned a bit pink on week three of no water changes, but theres not been any algae blooms, plant protests or anything of the sort.
TDS went up a bit but really not that much, I think I saw 160~ TDS the day before the water change (compared to ~130)
So im tempted to just keep it going like this 🤷‍♀️ 
Do a water change maybe once every three weeks or monthly.

The plants still dont like that micro mix. So ill be reverting the micro recipe to almost the same as the one before. Im changing the macro a bit too, more K.

Some more plants turned up too, will post pics of them soonventually 

Thats all for now 😘


----------



## _Maq_

Has your temperature decreased with the autumn coming?


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Has your temperature decreased with the autumn coming?


Yeah for the most part the temperature is staying where its supposed to. The fan was removed from the tank a while ago and the lid put back on. Evaporation is a lot more manageable now


----------



## Hufsa

Posting this note mainly for my own records 🥴
I dont know when I will be able to make up new ferts, and this has been annoying me somewhat as I know I want to add more potassium at least. The plants are just waiting for me to have the energy for them.
I thought to myself "What would @dw1305 do?" and I went and got my jar of potassium sulphate & a teaspoon, and I bunged in half a teaspoon. (I was going for a whole teaspoon but I got a bit nervous last second)
I have no idea how much I just added but my thinking is that its probably entirely fine and if they are low on potassium then this will definitely improve the mood a bit.

Ill keep an eye on the plants and see if I notice any differences 🙂


----------



## _Maq_

I think we've got good reasons to believe that the amount and frequency of WC can be decreased with lower temperature.


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> I bunged in half a teaspoon
> I have no idea how much I just added


I plugged the amount into rotala calculator and it looks like I added about 5ppm, which is not that much.
Ill add another whole teaspoon later which should bring us up to +15ppm, a more significant addition. Not accounting for whatever might be in the water column because its been a while since my last WC and it would just be guessing.
Trying to observe itty bitty changes is difficult because you never know if youre observing the result of your change or something else entirely. I wanted to add a fair bit so I could hopefully see a bigger result, which would be slightly more likely to be caused by my bigger change, if that makes sense.

Got a bit of trimming done as well, stemplants never take a break 😁



_Maq_ said:


> I think we've got good reasons to believe that the amount and frequency of WC can be decreased with lower temperature.


Can you elaborate on this Maq?
My tank isnt running as hot as it sometimes did in summer (peaking temperatures around 26 a fair bit in the daytime), but its not what I would imagine is a huge significant amount cooler now. 
Its sitting somewhere between 23-24, with 23 being the target.


----------



## Libba

How much water are you changing in the monthly water changes?


----------



## Hufsa

Libba said:


> How much water are you changing in the monthly water changes?


75% still


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Can you elaborate on this Maq?


It goes with my signature topic - oxygen & organic pollution.
I believe the topmost enemy of planted tanks is organic compounds in the water column.  To degrade them completely (not only partially, which is bad), microbes require oxygen. There's more oxygen in cooler water, while all biochemical processes go on slower pace (incl. fish eating less, plants exuding less etc.). As a result, there's less organic matter in the tank and oxygenation=decomposition of organic matter is more perfect.

I'm not heating/cooling my tanks, and heat my place sparingly. Therefore, temperature in my tanks somehow follows the year seasons. Winter is a "sleeping season", plants don't grow much. Spring and autumn are best. Summer, on the other side, is the period of vigorous growth, but also instability. Troubles with "mysterious" melting and die-offs occur mostly during summer. More WC are required and activated carbon gets employed almost permanently.


----------



## Hufsa

Libba said:


> How much water are you changing in the monthly water changes?





Hufsa said:


> 75% still



Feel free to share any thoughts about this @Libba , my thinking is that a 75% water change would be extra good for getting the water column reset after a longer time of accumulation (of nutrients but also dissolved waste), but of course it also means a slightly larger swing for my livestock. Then again they didnt seem disturbed by this at all. 
The TDS swing was only from 160 to 130 or so, so much less than the almost 100 TDS swing they would have seen back when I was dosing full EI in a low tech tank, and that was only over one week.


----------



## Libba

Hufsa said:


> Feel free to share any thoughts about this @Libba , my thinking is that a 75% water change would be extra good for getting the water column reset after a longer time of accumulation (of nutrients but also dissolved waste), but of course it also means a slightly larger swing for my livestock. Then again they didnt seem disturbed by this at all.
> The TDS swing was only from 160 to 130 or so, so much less than the almost 100 TDS swing they would have seen back when I was dosing full EI in a low tech tank, and that was only over one week.



I don't have any strong thoughts about it Hufsa! I don't believe in blanket rules that say you should change X amount of water. Every system is unique. You're the one who knows your system the most, and if you find that 75% monthly water changes work best then I don't have any reason to think you're wrong. The "shocked face" reaction is just because I'm a very moderate and fragile person and I find big percentages confronting.


----------



## Hufsa

Libba said:


> I don't have any strong thoughts about it Hufsa! I don't believe in blanket rules that say you should change X amount of water. Every system is unique. You're the one who knows your system the most, and if you find that 75% monthly water changes work best then I don't have any to think you're wrong. The "shocked face" reaction is just because I'm a very moderate and fragile person and I find big percentages confronting.


I appreciate your thoughts 😊 I like to hear others input even if its different from what I'm thinking, especially because sometimes I can get stuck in my own line of reasoning and miss important aspects. 
I think ill use the shrimp as my guide as they would be the most sensitive to this kind of thing. My otos seem to love water changes and always want to swim in the current from the new water. So if the shrimp continue on as usual then ill know that its most likely ok. And if not then I can adjust as needed


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I appreciate your thoughts 😊 I like to hear others input even if its different from what I'm thinking, especially because sometimes I can get stuck in my own line of reasoning and miss important aspects.
> I think ill use the shrimp as my guide as they would be the most sensitive to this kind of thing. My otos seem to love water changes and always want to swim in the current from the new water. So if the shrimp continue on as usual then ill know that its most likely ok. And if not then I can adjust as needed



How are your Caridina shrimp getting on - have they had any babies yet? I have had several failed attempts to breed some in my tanks - excluding the Tangerine Tigers I now have which appear to be breeding like rabbits on Viagra.


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> How are your Caridina shrimp getting on - have they had any babies yet? I have had several failed attempts to breed some in my tanks - excluding the Tangerine Tigers I now have which appear to be breeding like rabbits on Viagra.


Ive seen a couple of them berried but havent spotted any Caridina shrimplets yet, I had the distinct feeling that one of the mamas would have already released her first brood by now, so I am a little bit puzzled that I cant spot any babies.
The Neos are multiplying like crazy as usual, but the water values are more in their wheelhouse than for the Caridina.
I wonder if the shrimplets did not survive release, or maybe they're just hiding well, I cant really tell. Only long term results will shed light I think in a tank that has so many hiding spots.
My gut feeling says that the KH and GH is very much on the borderline of what the Caridina find ok.
The GH I could lower easily, the KH maybe not so much, as you have seen by my other thread.
I have several safety concerns that I need clear answers to regarding that, but I would rather cause a small stir on the forum and ask the questions first rather than just going out on my own and potentially doing something very dangerous. Im rather attached to my skin and prefer to keep all of it attached to me 😁

Im very interested in those Tangerine Tigers, they are not super common here but I think I could source some if I wanted to. Just to refresh my memory, what KH and GH are your tanks running at Wookii?


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Im very interested in those Tangerine Tigers, they are not super common here but I think I could source some if I wanted to. Just to refresh my memory, what KH and GH are your tanks running at Wookii?



I've put them in two tanks. One is a my new QT tank which is running KH0 / GH3-4 - in this tank they have bred like crazy - there are babies everywhere, and numerous adults buried. I also have them in my 'farm' tank which runs on tap water - so around 6-8dKH and 11-12dGH - they haven't done very well in there though, I haven't seen any breeding activities, and less adults than I added (though they aren't always the easiest to spot against a sand substrate). The farm tank is CO2 injected though (although at a lower level than typical), which may also be a factor.


----------



## Hufsa

A lot of pics in this one, sorry in advance for the rambling 😅
New FTS with the trimming that has been done on the right hand side.
I had to slow the roll on the Bolbitis from Darrel too, the biggest leaf I took off the one in the center measured 25 cm, I wonder how big they are planning to get?








Before the above FTS, the right hand corner had turned into this very lush and thick group of Blyxa japonica, Myriophyllum sp. Guyana and Pogostemon helferi.
The noodles were loving it, and spent most of their time snaking about in the thick undergrowth.
I even got this blurry picture of the very illusive Long Serpent. He is a beautiful fish, his sides shine a bright silvery golden color when the light hits it.
Shortly after this photo was taken he spotted me and darted off as usual 😅

Unfortunately sometimes when things are looking the most grown in and beautiful is also the time when trimming needs to be done. Im not gonna lie I really preferred how this corner looked before the trim, but the Blyxa was smushed up right against the glass, and the growth was beginning to choke itself out and rotting. The noodles were immensely offended when I started pulling out plants, and were shouting something about habitat destruction and violation of rights as they were darting for cover in other (obviously subpar) parts of the tank. I expect they will be calling for my resignation as town mayor any day now.




Tonina is a nice plant. Very nice. I didnt know what to expect when I got this one for the first time, the stems look like they might be very delicate, but they are actually quite wooden and strong. This plant is super well behaved, it grows straight up without any funny business. I never quite understood why people were talking about "well behaved" plants, or plants that are not very well behaved. But I sure understand now. Its so much easier to keep Tonina under control than say, Ludwigia palustris "Super Red", which branches and leans and goes every which way, shading its neighbors and generally being rowdy.
A lot of the time I find myself needing to trim a group of plants not because they are that overgrown, but rather because they are growing the wrong way or leaning and making some other plant unhappy. "Super Red" is a repeat offender and im thinking about getting rid of it entirely.

Earlier this week I got a package of plants from a very kind hobbyist. Ive been wanting Rotala rotundifolia "Blood Red SG" for a while, and Im fairly confident that this is the first time this plant is even in the country.
Unfortunately they had a pretty bad time in transit, and much of the plantmass was wilted.





But, in the very tips I saw some growth that looked like it might still have life left in it.
Hoping for a small miracle I carefully cleaned off the wilted leaves. Many of the stems were still firm, which is a good sign.
I put the mostly bare stems in my tank and hoped for the best. My shrimp went right to work and cleaned off any remaining dead tissue.
Its a little bit early to call it yet, but I think they may make it 😍









I love Ludwigia sp. Marilia, have I mentioned it before? Maybe a couple of times 😅







Bacopa caroliniana "Colorata" is starting to put on some color. Seems like a very uncomplicated plant so far.
Im not sure if ive even kept a Bacopa species before, they havent really interested me. But the whole family seem to be unfussy plants.
The difference between the "Colorata" variety and regular caroliniana is how pink they get and how easily they will do so.
Colorata will get solid pink in higher light, while caroliniana mostly gets pink on the tops only.




A stem of Pantanal, these are still not stable long term in my tank. This one came from the windowsill not too long ago.
The ones that were doing well a month ago stunted really badly after the trim and replant and most of them didnt recover.
Im very glad to have a backup culture of this plant.





The stems of L. glandulosa I got turned huge in diameter as expected, and I decided to keep just one stem because of the limited space. I really need one more meter of tank length to comfortably keep all of these plants of mine.
This one is recently replanted here, lets see how it tolerates being kept relatively short as a midground plant 
It was located in front of the Crypt spiralis Red before, but they were almost the same color and looked terrible next to each other. At least until glandulosa decides to be more purple it needed to be moved somewhere else.
Its voicing its general displeasure at my current regime by twisting of the leaves. I have observed this symptom in several plant species over the past month.
Im not going to try to diagnose what is causing this specifically, because im not convinced that this is a productive thing to attempt to do.
Instead im going to focus on fixing the things that I already know are not where they need to be with my tank.
CO2 levels have not been stable because I havent been able to stay on top of evaporation, and I also feel like the flow in the tank is not quite where it used to be.
For example the bottom spray bar definitely needs to receive its *ahem* _annual cleaning _
The intake strainers are also super nasty and havent been cleaned in a while which definitely could affect flow.
There is of course also the lingering micro issue, although we are closer to solving it.

Sometimes you just have to do one thing at a time, and thats ok.
I have been dividing the plant trimming into more moderate sessions as im catching back up with tank maintenance, and still have a few bits left to do like cleaning the plumbing and another water change.
The water is pink right now which may be showing up in a few of the pictures.

In the bottom right of the above pic you can spot the Ludwigia polycarpa. The yellow color is still developing, but im liking this species so far.
It leans a bit but doesnt seem fussy. This one has also been showing a bit of twisting leaves like the glandulosa.
Its super stout and bushy and makes a perfect midground plant. I originally had three growing but needed more space as usual, so cut down to one.




Hygrophila pinnatifida "Uttara Kannada" is going well, had its first trim last week, I brutally cut any runner going somewhere its not supposed to, and took out all the main vertical shoots, but it looks like I missed one.
So far this plant seems super easy, sure is a contrast to how much difficulty I had when trying it low tech. I did hear that invitro or even better tank grown specimens are easier to take into low tech than emersed stems, and the latter is what I tried back then. It might have given me better odds but it does seem like this one just really wanted the CO2.
Its gonna be "fun" attempting to keep this one localized to the relatively small bit of wood it is attached to.
On the spray bar you can see a smattering of green spot algae and tiny beginnings of some serious BBA.
I havent really struggled a lot with green spot algae before, not that I can recall anyway. Ill be monitoring the amount of green spot with interest as my tank develops and goes through various changes 




Have a fair bit of BBA as well, im currently ignoring it as best I can, and have decided to focus on other more pressing matters. My hope is that the BBA will just happen to disappear as I solve some of the other problems.
In the picture are my three biggest varieties of Bucephalandra, top one is Pearl Grey, right middle is Silver Grey and bottom left is Dark Achilles / Kishii / Skeleton King / etc.
These three are really coming into their own despite the unsightly BBA. They dont seem to respond to trimming the same or grow quite like the smaller varieties.
I have decided to treat them as rosette plants in a way, and they seem to like this. Ive had three flowers from the Pearl Grey and one from the Silver Grey. I pinched the latest round off as I would rather have more leaves.
They are getting really massive and I think they will be just stunning once the BBA stops growing. I especially like the color of new leaves on the Dark Achilles, they have an orange bronze ish hue and they glitter/shine in metallic orange, yellow and green that is more or less impossible to capture on a still photo. It contrasts really beautifully with the steely grey of the mature leaves.

Various plant health pics:









As you can see amongst other things the Tonina is really not a great color, but I am grateful that it is at least surviving ok despite the issue.
So its an issue but its not a "whole house is on fire" kind of issue. This gives me a lot more time to work on it.




The Rotala macrandra Mini Type 4 is growing ok, it doesnt look _good_ but its not dying. (Talk about low standards  )
Color is not there, and theres a bit of curling and crumpling of the leaves.
This plant got the shortest straw and is not in a good position in the tank. Its way out on the right edge so flow is not super strong, light is not super strong and it has two really easy and happy neighbors in front of it that are super thick and block even more flow when they grow in. As if that wasnt enough it the creepy polysperma behind it keeps leaning over and breathing down its neck. A lot of the trimming I do of the Guyana and Polysperma is to keep them from infringing on the other plants around them. Guyana doesnt lean _too badly_ it just gets super dense and branches a lot naturally.




RIP favorite kuhlii loach hangout corner. In the bottom left there is one bit of Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' that decided to do a little bit of growing, but its probably not going to last.
I cleaned up some of the old growth around it and maybe the reshoots will do better. This plant seems to rely on its roots a lot which is why I havent disturbed the bushes in a while.
Kudos for not dying though, it looks absolutely hideous and it doesnt grow, but it stays around at least 😅 The yellow plant on the very bottom is a small bit of Cuba.








Cryptocoryne & friends corner is an absolute mess with tiny plants and BBA everywhere. Most of the big crypts are still sulking from being moved over here, a fair bit of general unhappiness. Interestingly I dont really seem to get melting plants in my tank, not even melting from these quite angry crypts. All the crypts I have have either already melted and regrown when they arrived at the pet store (all the Borneo ones), or came from invitro and didnt go through any melt. I have not purchased an emersed crypt yet, it would be interesting to see if that kind would also not melt.




I picked up around five small mystery crypts from my LFS a little while back, they were all from the tanks that contained the borneo crypts, but they were all way too small to tell which kinds they were.
Three of them have pulled ahead a little bit and seem to be growing a bit faster than the others. They are the type with the dark green slightly bullate leaf like the one in the center of the image.
I think the three dark green ones may be the kind that came in with the label "Sparta". It has been very difficult to find any information about this trade name, I have only managed to track down two or three pictures.
It seems to be a reddish brown to dark green crypt with long relatively slender leaves and strongly bullate leaf surface.
The fourth crypt looks like it might be another one of the "Queen Vandom" type, or perhaps the kind called "Nensies".
These names have also been very hard to find info about, but it seems like "Queen Vandom" and "Nensies" may be somewhat similar in appearance.
The fifth one is still too small to make any guesstimations.




The Bucephalandra BG2011/12 is doing fine and seems to be working overtime to pay back its debts to me. In addition to the main growing point its started three more along the older sections of the rhizome.
I have noticed sometimes the Buce seems to do this if you place the rhizome sideways or slightly upside down.
Im thinking of moving this one now so it gets more light and speeds up its growth a bit, but potentially having it covered in BBA makes me nervous. Then again there is BBA in this shaded corner also so I might as well.




Hymenasplenium obscurum has grown a nice big leaf and I hope the next one will be even bigger. I have plans to have a large group of this fern in the area in front of the Crypt spiralis Red, although it will need a root to sit on to prop it up a little.

I mentioned that I have a few new plants as well, they were ordered at the same time as the ones from the previous spree, but for various reasons took a little longer to arrive. They are;
Pteridophyta sp. "Niah"
Didymoglossum sp. "Buea Goliath" (I refuse to call this one Bolbitis sp. as that is just ridiculous)
Bucephalandra Moss
Fissidens sp. Miroshaki
Fissidens sp. Mallorca
+ no less than three gifts;
Crepidomanes sp. Vietnam II
Crystal Moss
Fissidens Nagasaki (I passed this one on to another moss collector as I already have quite a lot of Fissidens)

The following pictures are absolutely terrible and I refuse to retake them 😁



Both these Crepidomanes need better homes soon(TM)




Im very interested to see how some of these new "ferns" grow, like do they cling to the wood like Bolbitis and Java ferns do?




An interesting thing about Bolbitis heteroclita "Cuspidata" (that regular Bolbitis heudelotii cannot do), is that it can grow new plantlets from old fronds.
You may be able to spot some of the plantlets, especially the one on the very right.




The bit of much anticipated Fissidens sp. Miroshaki has been spread out on its own coconut, while the Fissidens sp Mallorca is bunking with Crepidomanes Vietnam II and Bucephalandra Moss.
Fissidens Miroshaki & Mallorca and Bucephalandra Moss & Crystal Moss seem like two pairs that seem quite similar. I know there is a subtle difference between Buce and Crystal moss, the former is slightly bigger and the latter is a bit more crinkly somehow. The Miroshaki and Mallorca I have found to be hard to tell apart in pictures, so I will be very interested to see how they both develop in my tank. Unless they turn out very distinct there is a high likelihood that I will pick my favorite kind from each pair and sell off the other.







The Anubias Mini Coin is doing well too, im letting it grow out a bit more. I want the pieces that I snip off to be big enough to be replanted on the coconut, so it needs a bit more time.



Vesicularia sp. "Tortoise" has grown out of the mesh, it really needs a trim if I want it to grow more branched and bushy. Its on my to-do list 😇
Im thinking of putting Weeping Moss back in the tank so I can compare the two. Maybe another piece to put on the glass 😘


----------



## plantnoobdude

The tank is looking superb!!!

I’m going to have to agree with you on tonina being well behaved! It really is a joy to work with, if you like it, may I suggest ludwigia senegalensis, grows straight up and doesn’t make sideshoots easily.


Hufsa said:


> now.


How long did it take to do this😱 I’m never as careful lol


Hufsa said:


> Hygrophila pinnatifida "Uttara Kannada" is going well, had its first trim last week, I brutally cut any runner going somewhere its


sAfe to say you got revenge on the pinnatafida? 


Hufsa said:


> Bacopa caroliniana "Colorata"


I have my doubts on this one, looks suspiciously like Caroliniana. Colorata should be more solid coloured IMO. 


Hufsa said:


> the bottom left there is one bit of Ammannia pedicellata 'Golden' that decided to do a little bit of growing, but its probably not going to last.


That pedicellata looks promising!


Hufsa said:


> Its a little bit early to call it yet, but I think they may make it 😍


those look 👍 . Safe to say they’ll do great.


Hufsa said:


> The Anubias Mini Coin is


so cute and tiny!!!! I might get these, a bit pricy tho. 

Not too much to say about the moss, except, calm it down a little. Moss hoarding goblin😂(affectionately of course)


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> Not too much to say about the moss, except, calm it down a little. Moss hoarding goblin😂(affectionately of course)


IM A GROWN ADULT AND I CAN HAVE ALL THE MOSS I WANT

😁😘


----------



## KirstyF

Wow, so much stuff going on. I still think you must secretly have 6 tanks to fit all those lovelies in.

Now you just need to work up an alias and start wearing hoodies, so the noodle protection society can’t track you down. 😊


----------



## Hufsa

plantnoobdude said:


> The tank is looking superb!!!


Very kind of you to say so 🥰
Ive been a bit unhappy about how much yellow and orange there is in my tank compared to green, it doesnt help that the water turns pink and some of the greenest green plants are chlorotic.
To help this a little bit I have decided to downsize some of the non green plant groupings, and increase some of the green ones.
I really like the individual colorful stemplant species but I think they always look best when they are contrasted with a lot of nice shades of green.
It really is a symptom of trying to fit too many shinies into too small of a space though.
I have a few very nice green-green plants on my wish list still, and I think once I get my greedy paws on them (and you all know I will eventually), the tank will look even better.
Im quite liking the dark side / light side layout that has evolved over time, it started as a matter of practicality but I found that I quite like it and want to keep going with that.



plantnoobdude said:


> I’m going to have to agree with you on tonina being well behaved! It really is a joy to work with, if you like it, may I suggest ludwigia senegalensis, grows straight up and doesn’t make sideshoots easily.


Yess, this one is on my list, mainly because I think the brick red color and pattern on the leaves look neato.
I dont pick which plants I like based on if they are well behaved or not, but it sure doesnt hurt when the ones I like are also well behaved 😁



plantnoobdude said:


> How long did it take to do this😱 I’m never as careful lol


I usually need several hours each time I trim my tank, I think I am just quite slow (and methodical perhaps). Some of the plant species get the bottom leaves removed before replanting, but not all of them because life is just too short for the smallest and fiddliest leaves. Sorting them by height also takes a while, im practicing my replanting skills and trying to get the groups to look nice on replanting.



plantnoobdude said:


> sAfe to say you got revenge on the pinnatafida?


Yeah! Unless it spontaneously dies tomorrow then I think its safe to say Ive made pinnatifida my beach 


plantnoobdude said:


> I have my doubts on this one, looks suspiciously like Caroliniana. Colorata should be more solid coloured IMO.


Its a tissue culture plant from a very reputable vendor so I think its genuine Colorata. Its taken some time to grow to the right size, and only recently has started getting any color developed.
We should keep in mind my tank is both suffering from the chlorosis issue which impacts coloration, but also running some not super powerful lights at not super powerful percentages 😊



plantnoobdude said:


> That pedicellata looks promising!


Nah bro I can see it starting to crumple in the newest leaves 😝 Its stunting again soon, ive seen it all before.



plantnoobdude said:


> so cute and tiny!!!! I might get these, a bit pricy tho.


I think they said if the limited edition Mini Coin sells well enough, then they will bring it back as a regular item and the price will be lower 🤩




KirstyF said:


> Wow, so much stuff going on. I still think you must secretly have 6 tanks to fit all those lovelies in.


I need 6 tanks to fit all those lovelies in 😂 Im dreaming of a 2 meter long planted tank with a 60 cm footprint... 🤤


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Very kind of you to say so 🥰





Hufsa said:


> really like the individual colorful stemplant species but I think they always look best when they are contrasted with a lot of nice shades of green.


Yeah,,, I definitely suffer from red plant collectoritis… even foreground is red for gods sake lol. Need sum more green, but I also want more demanding stuff🤷‍♂️ Rotala Tulu might be nice. 


Hufsa said:


> several hours each time


Sounds about right given the tank size. 


Hufsa said:


> Yess, this one is on my list, mainly because I think the brick red color and pattern on the leaves look neato


I need to figure out how to get my senegalensis leaves huge like Raj Mahakul and Dennis Wong….  Lol for now I’m fine with my spindly twigs of ludwigia.


Hufsa said:


> but also running some not super powerful lights at not super powerful percentages 😊


True, true. My Chihiros is going full blast 9 hours.


Hufsa said:


> I think they said if the limited edition Mini Coin sells well enough, then they will bring it back as a regular item and the price will be lower 🤩


Welp might as well get some anyway. Would be a shame if it gets pulled of the shelves.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> im practicing my replanting skills and trying to get the groups to look nice on replanting.


A small trick I use is:
float all the stems in the tank 
Collect them in one hand, with the tops of the stems aligned. 
Chop all the bottoms off at a sharp angle with a pair of scissors. While the stems are collected in your hand
If you plant these in order, from the shortest first. You’ll get a Nice slope fairly quickly. 
Afterwards I just clean my skimmer and all is good👍


----------



## erwin123

love all the plants in the tank and of course, the running commentary! 

Like plantnoobdude, I'm also waiting for someone to tell me how to grow mega-sized Ammannia Senegelansis, I just have thin and spindly stems in my tank.... 2hraquarist says ammonia rich aquasoil so I have been adding osmocote under the stems...

Looking at the Tonina Fluvialitis, it looks ideal for areas of higher water flow that might otherwise cause 'weaker' stems to grow crooked

I have been trying to look for a green plant like R.Macandra Green but its hard to find locally, though all the red variants, mini, butterfly, narrow leaf etc are readily available.


----------



## Hufsa

Today is the day guys, I can feel it in my thoroughly overcaffeinated bones 
Im making new ferts 
To be clear my tank hasnt been running with no ferts at all, that would be bad, very bad on my setup (hungry plants, inert substrate and CO2 injection).
Theres still some ferts left in the containers, I just want to change out the solutions for new recipes to hopefully get a few things growing a bit better.

I ran a few water tests just now to see if they align with my existing ideas (the last water change was about two and a half weeks ago)
TDS 173 (the usual "end of week" reading is ~150 when I do weekly WC) 
KH 3 (measured with 0.5 increments for @Wookii )
NO3 ~15+, maybe somewhere around 17. Exact number doesnt matter.
PO4 ~1,2, maybe a smidge over. This is a small increase since last time I measured. Perfectly content with this one for now, a non zero value that also doesnt go out of the scale.
Fe ~0,4. Quite a bit more since last measurement. This corroborates the pink tint of my water (Fe EDDHA). Im not going to say the current chlorosis issue is absolutely not caused by a lack of iron, but there does seem to be something funky going on here, the issue seems to be about more than iron. My current thought is that there are some interactions going on.


Our currently running weekly macro recipe as past-Hufsa had so helpfully summarized for us:


Hufsa said:


> "Daily dosed Macro" weekly ppms:
> 2 N (50% Urea & 50% KNO3) = 8.8 NO3
> 0.26 P = 0.8 PO4
> 3.12 K


New weekly macro:
Rounding NO3 up to 10 ppm because the IFC uses NO3 rather than N for input, and clean looking numbers make me happy for some silly reason.
Ill keep PO4 the same for now at 0,8 ppm. I would rather have a little bit too much than not enough (ref. test result)
Bringing K all the way up to 15 🤯 WOW explosions and stuff (joking sorry)
Might take it down again later on, currently dont have a test for K, will get one the next time I order from a specific store, but who knows when that will actually be. 
Test kits are so bl**dy expensive for what they actually do, and I only _barely_ find the price tolerable from that cheapest store. So until then im just going by feel alone 🤠
Right now I just want to add "a bunch" to see what happens.

Ill update the replenishing/front loading macro recipe to match the weekly one, but still using only KNO3 and no Urea for front loading.

I have been very happy so far with the replenishing regime. 
The tank gets a big boost, one whole week's worth of macros added after one of my 75% water changes, and then the weekly addition is slightly leaner which allows it to run closer to uptake and stay in the sweet spot for a longer period of time.
This kind of fertilizing regime seems to somewhat bridge the gap between "larger than average water changes", "sometimes performed weekly" but then also "sometimes no water change is done in a whole month".
Having consistent nutrient availability and avoiding a lot of accumulation in unexpected periods of less maintenance is my goal.
I want to implement something similar for replenishing micros, but not sure if I will do that right now.

Our currently running weekly micro recipe:


> Micro (dosed daily) weekly ppms:
> 0.3 Fe (From 0.275 DTPA and 0.025 EDDHA)
> 0.15 Mn
> 0.06 Zn
> 0.06 B
> 0.018 Cu
> 0.009 Mo
> 0.0001 Ni
> (No extra gluconate dosed)


This is the one where the plants got worse (more chlorotic) again, so something about this they didnt like.

The recipe that came before the one above is the one that has given the best results out of all of them so far:


> 0,3 Fe (From 0,275 DTPA and 0,025 EDDHA)
> 0,05 Mn
> 0,02 Zn
> 0,02 B
> 0,006 Cu
> 0,0001 Mo
> 0,0001 Ni
> Plus 0,2 Fe Gluconate dosed separately


- So the iron stayed the same EXCEPT they got a glub of 0,2 Fe Gluconate dosed at some point during the week (or was it 0,1 twice?)
Since my water is currently pink (there is excess Fe EDDHA available in the water column), I am slightly less inclined to think that the 0,2 Fe Gluc is what made the difference, unless the fact that gluconate is so much tastier than EDDHA is the issue. But still it only makes second most likely reason on my list.

The recipe they liked had three times less Manganese. The competitive relationship between Iron and Manganese is well known. Both Iron and Manganese can give chlorosis. I think this one is the most likely reason, if I had to guess.
Current recipe also tripled Zn, B and Cu. I dont think these are responsible for the chlorosis. Mayhaps some of the other tiny irregularities, but im not looking too closely into that at the moment.
Mo is higher currently. Im keeping this change, I think the previous number seems too low and I dont want to have any issues with Nitrogen uptake. Mo is relatively unproblematic to have a bit high also, so there is no big deal with making sure there is reasonable excess (as far as traces go, everything is relative, im not gonna add 5 ppm )
Ni is the same, my tap water report shows that I have enough Ni already in my supply so im just including 0,0001 just to be 200% sure there is "some".

Since I am interested in getting back to the "fairly green and only slightly chlorotic" baseline that we had before, im reverting all the changes except the Mo. 
Im not gonna add Fe Gluconate in the mixture, but I have the option to dose it manually later on if I want to. I must make sure to write it down if I do though.

Well enough talking, I need to start mixing before the caffeine wears off


----------



## Hufsa

Summary post for future-Hufsa, new ferts from tomorrow

Macro (dosed daily) weekly ppms
10 NO3 (50/50 KNO3/Urea)
0,8 PO4
15 K

Macro used right after a WC (one off dose)
10 NO3 (Only from KNO3)
0,8 PO4
15 K

Micro (dosed daily) weekly ppms
0,3 Fe (From 0,275 DTPA and 0,025 EDDHA)
0,05 Mn
0,02 Zn
0,02 B
0,006 Cu
0,009 Mo
0,0001 Ni
[Edit] EDTA Chelated micros minus Mo&Ni

Ive put water in the barrel for a water change tomorrow, theres 2 and a half weeks worth of an unknown combination of excess micros floating around in the tank, so it really needs a water change to go with the new ferts.
I *really hate* the pink water that shows up in the tank after a while, and I had ideas about stopping the use of Fe EDDHA entirely this time.
But the very visual feedback it gives is just far too useful to stop now, so im just going to have to grit my teeth for a while longer.


----------



## Hufsa

I need to make some more forbidden soda soon, im running out of the B and Zn solutions. Probably enough for one more round though.
The Mo has stayed beautifully clear, it was the ascorbic acid that caused the blue color shenanigans. Same with my macro solution, stopped using ascorbic, no yellow tint.




I found a bit of mold stuff in my micro dosing line, well I have seen it a while ago but I pretended that I didnt so that I didnt have to deal with it.
But I couldnt ignore it any more now and attempted to clean it. I need a better technique for this, since my glutaraldehyde is suspected out of date and ineffective (I tried to fry some algae with a dip and nothing happened no matter how much I used), I was left with just Q tips and some hot water, because I didnt want to mess with bleach, and didnt feel like figuring out where I put the H2O2.
After I had scrubbed away the worst bits I boiled a kettle of water and sent it through the line, and then left it sitting there while I went to mix up more ferts.
I thought the acrylic/PMMA whatever tube was heat resistant since I tried using boiling water to bend this kind of tube before, but it didnt work.
It definitely does not tolerate sitting with such hot water though, oops 😅 



This tube was straight before I started  I tried shoving it back in the dosing container and leaving it for future-Hufsa to deal with some other time (my favorite way to deal with problems), but it no longer fit inside the hole so I had to make a new bit of pipe 
The rubber band tied around the top is to stop the pipe from hammering on the bottom of the container when the doser runs and causing a really annoying sound. Stay tuned for more pro-tips 




I spotted this odd little fellow in the tank. He is all red. He must be a really random neocaridina baby, because I was pretty sure the bee shrimp are born with white already on them?

When I was thinning out my collection of buce and posting photos for sale I noticed something in the pictures.



My hands. My skin looks distinctly purple tinged.
This is how it starts you know... 
...*Blurple lights *

This is totally UNACCEPTABLE!
As soon as my water returns to a normal color tomorrow I am going to be recalibrating my light spectrum 😠
Maybe ill increase the intensity or photoperiod a bit too... ive been gone too long from the watchful influence of our lord and savior @KirstyF


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> The Mo has stayed beautifully clear, it was the ascorbic acid that caused the blue color shenanigans. Same with my macro solution, stopped using ascorbic, no yellow tint.


Ascorbic acid is a powerful antioxidant, i.e. reducing agent. There are only two instances when it's useful: if your fertilizer contains divalent iron or divalent manganese. Otherwise it's completely redundant, unless you host a microbes' banquet.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Ascorbic acid is a powerful antioxidant, i.e. reducing agent. There are only two instances when it's useful: if your fertilizer contains divalent iron or divalent manganese. Otherwise it's completely redundant, unless you host a microbes' banquet.


Ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate are the standard preservatives used for DIY ferts around here.
Oddly enough it seems most people arent having problems with it, aside from having a visually yellow macro mix. Or at least they arent having any problems with it that they know of 😏
Then again rolling your own micros is something most people skip over, so they entirely avoid the issue of stock solutions sitting around turning odd colors.
Ive been using Citric acid from the advice of @Happi , and this seems to work ok. No preservatives of any kind in the stock solutions though, just the final mixes.


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> Ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate are the standard preservatives used for DIY ferts around here.


Wrong. Potassium sorbate is a preservative. Ascorbic acid is not. 
And I don't see a reason to add citric acid. We have discussed it. There are compounds which are more stable in acidic environment. Ok, but acidifying the solution with citric acid may easily backfire because it's a delicacy for microbes.


----------



## Hufsa

_Maq_ said:


> Wrong. Potassium sorbate is a preservative. Ascorbic acid is not.


My mistake, I omitted a few bits for the sake of brevity. The ascorbic acid is added to keep the ph in a beneficial range, and because it has synergistic properties with potassium sorbate, that is what I have been told.


_Maq_ said:


> Ok, but acidifying the solution with citric acid may easily backfire because it's a delicacy for microbes.


Ill consider trying another acid later on, which one do you personally use for this purpose, HCL or H2SO4 perhaps?

DIY fert recipes usually use only weak acids as part of the recipe as it is safer for the average end user to handle. (I didnt come up with this I am just relaying some information 😅)


----------



## Happi

Hufsa said:


> Ive been using Citric acid from the advice of @Happi


sorry Hufsa, i don't think i remember suggesting the use of Citric acid, are you sure it wasn't Plantnoobdude? i have never used a Citric Acid before, so i cannot make any comment on it. far as the Ascorbic acid goes, i do not recommend using it, instead, I use Vinegar or HCl or H2SO4 to acidify my solutions and still use Potassium Sorbate or Sodium Benzoate to preserve my solutions.


----------



## _Maq_

Hufsa said:


> which one do you personally use for this purpose


I'm not sure. You know, most hobbyists are using branded blends, like Tenso Cocktail. The manufacturer knows exactly the dangers and how to avoid them. But these measures cannot be extended to all micronutrient stock solutions because each element behaves differently and each complex salt reacts differently. If I'm not mistaken, Tenso Cocktail contains Fe, Mn, Zn, and Cu as EDTA-complexes. Maybe nickel, too. What I don't know is what kind of protection works best with EDTA, but I do know for sure that other complexing agents - citrate, gluconate, DTPA, EDDHMA, etc. - require somehow different treatment.
Add to that that I'm not using any of those. Only sporadically I've been experimenting with Fe-EDTA. I'm using simple salts instead, each nutrient separately, and do not need any preservatives nor acidifiers. Once in a while I learn that some species suffer from iron deficiency in basic water (pH > 7.0), a few struggle even in slightly acidic water (pH about 6.5). To me, such a disclosure is the goal; I feel no need to save the plant with strong chelates, instead, I move it to another tank with lower pH. And lower content of bicarbonates, that's important to mention.
Complex salts are a bit of "higher" chemistry. And I've never felt the urge to study chelating agents too deeply. What I do know is that potassium sorbate is quite a potent antimicrobial agent as long as pH is kept acidic, pH < 5 is best. Sulfuric acid can deliver acidity, of course, but it's also an oxidizer. That's probably the reason why another acid - ascorbic - is used. But to tell which one, why, even how much - that's all beyond my abilities.
All this discussion is irrelevant for boron and molybdenum, though. They don't create complex salts. Sodium molybdate is an ordinary salt which does not require any special treatment. Boric acid the same; beside that, it's a microbe-killer.


----------



## Happi

_Maq_ said:


> citric acid may easily backfire because it's a delicacy for microbes.


*many acids contain Carbon which is used by microbes, so am not sure about this, unless these acids and bacteria would have a negative affects on the solution. Maq can you share on this? *​


----------



## _Maq_

Happi said:


> many acids contain Carbon


All organic compounds contain carbon. Still, sorbic acid and benzoic acid are used as preservatives because they are harmful for fungi and most bacteria. Among simple aliphatic acids, citric acid is arguably least toxic for all organisms, for most microbes it's a welcome food. Acetic and formic acids are moderately toxic, oxalic acid is toxic to some organisms while not to others. And so on.


----------



## _Maq_

Happi said:


> unless these acids and bacteria would have a negative affects on the solution. Maq can you share on this?


Certainly. Microbes may influence or even outright destroy the chelating agents which are organic acids themselves. Par example, half-time of microbial decomposition of EDTA in natural waters is four weeks in average. (We can quite believe that decomposition time in our tanks is roughly similar.) So, to keep a stock solution of EDTA-salts any longer, you must protect it from microbial infestation. For that, another organic acid - sorbic - is often added. (Sorbic acid is poorly soluble, so potassium sorbate is used instead.)


----------



## Happi

@_Maq_  what if someone add any source of Carbon such as citric acid to their Solution and then also add Sodium Benzoate in the same solution. this would not let the Bacteria to grow? in another word the Benzoate will just prevent the Carbon and bacteria to do its thing? wouldn't it?   



_Maq_ said:


> Tenso Cocktail contains Fe, Mn, Zn, and Cu as EDTA-complexes. Maybe nickel, too. What I don't know is what kind of protection works best with EDTA, but I do know for sure that other complexing agents - citrate, gluconate, DTPA, EDDHMA, etc. - require somehow different treatment.


it contains both EDTA and DTPA far as i know


----------



## _Maq_

Happi said:


> Benzoate will just prevent the Carbon and bacteria to do its thing? wouldn't it?


Maybe. You'd have to try yourself. It certainly depends on concentrations, among others.


----------



## Hufsa

75% water change done, mesh intakes cleaned & had a little general tidy up of a few leaves here and there. Dosed the replenishing macros, thats important to remember.
Water is finally not pinky pink and I hope the pink tint stays away a bit longer this time. My pet theory is that the pink tint has been coming on so strong and fast because iron uptake has been hindered somehow, maybe. Or maybe its something else 😊

It feels good to be mostly caught up with maintenance now. I didnt get to do the spray bars or filters today but I can feel that I have spread myself a bit too thin this weekend and I need to take a little breather so things dont go all pear shaped again 😁 Theres no filter floss in the filters at the moment (I removed that when I realised I needed a break), so the filters wont be very needy anyway right now.

Ive forgotten to mention, theres almost nothing left of the new kind of slimy thread algae any more. At some point it swapped over from the new slimy kind to the old coarser kind. Im pretty happy about that, because the old coarser type can be pulled off the plants much more easily and doesnt tend to just break off leaving a lot still attached to the plant.
This is my favorite way of fighting algae, letting the algae go away on its own (or get outcompeted by a meaner algae  ill still take it)
Theres still a bit of the slimy kind of thread algae on the Pantanal, hoo boy that plant sure is a ..thing. But it has to do with plant health, the Pantanal is almost always the one doing the most dramatic shrieking and fainting.

I grabbed a few photos of the dinner service, I know some people really enjoy the livestock pics









Some shrimpy mama has released a litter of very brave shrimplets. Normally they hang out in the plants until they are a little bit bigger than this one, but this one and a bunch of small 'uns were all boldly going and pushing the otos around with all the adult shrimp











The Neocaridina population has really increased, im glad. There was a point where I only had a handful it felt like.
This was only a section of the crowd that showed up for grub 😊


----------



## jaisol

WOW Hufsa, 
I have been reading the progress, so far only at page 12 of 47 LOL (Oct 21) Your tank in its many iterations always looks good to me.
One part that made me laugh was were you had left the tank for a few months and mentioned the java fern had put on some growth and finally had some dark spots on it due to the stress, it made me wonder how bad am I with plants, I can get brown spots in about 6 weeks, as for growth well I'm dumb struck people can actually get growth?  LOL.

Your journey is inspiring, interesting, humerous, and I can't wait to carry on reading. Brilliant!


----------



## Hufsa

jaisol said:


> so far only at page 12 of 47 LOL (Oct 21)


Oh my goodness what a pilgrimage 😂 Let us know when/if you make it all the way to the end 😄
Thank you so much for the kind words 🥰


----------



## Hufsa

Need to write this down because I will 500% forget about it in only a few days, tanks gotten a few tweaks to lighting, CO2 and autodoser, some tweaks yesterday and some of it was a while ago.
Last night I added two more hours to the photoperiod, so its running at 10 hours total now not including the short ramps.
The time that the doser run was modified a little bit a while ago, im less nervous about dosing Urea now that my tank is thoroughly accustomed to it, so I swapped to dosing in one go rather than three, for practical reasons.
I have cancelled my _blurple crusade_, it turns out the lights were ramping down when I took those buce pictures, and thats why the spectrum was all wonky. Heresy averted 
I didnt change the intensity very much, the _call of the void_ wanted me to run both at 100% but I somehow overcame my desire to yeehaw and stuck with only the time increase 😇

Updated timeline:
07:30 Skimmer/Airstone* turns off
08:00 CO2 injection starts
09:00 Autodoser doses Micros
09:30 Lights start ramp up
10:00 Lights on "full" intensity (currently around ~70% on both Fluval 3.0's) CO2 is at 1.0 drop at this point.
12:00 Autodoser doses Macros
19:00 CO2 injection stops
20:00 Lights start ramp down
20:30 Lights off, skimmer/airstone* on

Ive got another PH pen coming in a weeks time, I was ordering something else from a store and found a reputable brand pen with 0,01 accuracy to a price that I couldnt pass up.
So expect a new PH profile coming soonish.


*Hufsa's Adventures with Skimmers - A study in overthinking / Im nothing if not persistent*

A week ago I swapped out the skimmer for an airstone, because I had read a forum member who had decent success with using only this to keep away surface scum, and I swear to god I am so tired of fishing shrimp out of the skimmer. Also, that useless Aquario skimmer broke into even more pieces when I tried mounting it in the tank, so I got zero working minutes out of that. I had used superglue to repair the original crack but the fitting itself is the most fragile thing I have ever come across, and I consider the whole venture a complete waste of money.
Most of you will already know ive tried a lot of different skimmers and modifications, first to the evil Eheim skimmer and then to the SunSun skimmer. The SunSun skimmer is ok except for my shrimp problem. I think I may have accidentally bred an especially stupid colony of shrimp, because I dont know of anyone else who is having so much problems with this. Or maybe im the stupid. Any way..
Ive been dragging my feet on implementing @Wookii 's specific mesh modification, because it involves gluing the mesh down and I was just nervous about doing a permanent modification in case it didnt work.
So I decided to try just an airstone, because it would be magnificently simple if it works.
A week has passed and I can see the surface is getting increasingly cloudy. I dont think this is going to work for me long term.

I put a lot of thought into how I can use CO2 injection in my tank while mitigating some of the risks that it carries.
Keeping the surface of the water crystal clear is one such factor, if this contributor to offgassing does not fluctuate then it will improve the long term stability (and safety) of the injection.
My main concern is equipment failure or unfortunate events that can cause the CO2 levels to spike, accidentally having the levels too low is not a safety risk as far as I can see.
I think that anyone who uses injected CO2 on a tank with livestock in it owes it to them to at least briefly mentally run through the different scenarios that can play out if "x thing gets stuck", "x thing is suddenly abnormal" and so on. Unexpected events are just that, unexpected, but we can try to design a system that will be as robust towards accidents as is feasible. 
But I digress.

So I like a clear surface, thats established. What I dont like is running the skimmer while the CO2 is injected. There is only one reason for this. 
Most skimmers have some very moveable parts. Moveable parts are more likely to fail, and skimmer failure is one of the accidents I see most commonly reported in aquascaping circles.
Skimmer failure also tends to lead to quite a lot of devastation compared to what a skimmer actually does (its function is not inherently vital for survival of fish).
But when your injection rate is set to account for the very vigorous offgassing produced by a skimmer, and your skimmer suddenly decides to not participate in that balance any more, you suddenly have a huge problem on your hands. The CO2 levels can spike high enough to be lethal, and this is not something I have just thought up in my mind, I have seen the tragic reports 😢
So while the extra offgassing and oxygen introduced with having a skimmer running concurrently with CO2 is a nice thing, for me I find the risk of a malfunction and spike too high compared to the benefits.
Ive been running my skimmer with the CO2 for a while now but it has never sat right with me, and im changing it to run only at night from now.
The skimmer is still likely to have a minor or major malfunction, but since it is not a direct part of the injection vs offgassing balance, its role is much less critical.
Now it only has to keep the surface clean, and if it malfunctions, the surface scum will likely need several days to build up before it has a chance to impact anything.

So when im feeling up for it I will take out the airstone and put in the faithful SunSun skimmer again, but this time with modification ala Wookii.
I think ill use the top that I have removed the bars from perhaps. I believe I have exactly the same mesh that Wookii uses, its a bit thinner and has slightly smaller holes than another black mesh from Ebay I have tried before. If anyone is still reading at this point, I would greatly appreciate if you could say a silent prayer for me that this time it finally works 100% satisfactory, and I will be able to be at peace, a conclusion to the skimmer saga is a long time coming.
If it still doesnt work I am having thoughts about bagging up my idiotic adventurous shrimp and sending them all post haste to Wookii, and then he can deal with them


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> I put a lot of thought into how I can use CO2 injection in my tank while mitigating some of the risks that it carries.



Assuming you have a dual stage regulator, the only other main potential failure point (other than human error, which is probably the main one) could be the needle valve, so running dual valves can mitigate that. I have the el-chaepo CO2 art needle valve set just slightly above the output I want, and then the decent Camozzi Precision needle valve after it setting the real CO2 flow levels. If either one fails, the other should limit output. I guess there is a tiny risk of the second stage valve on the regulator failing and the increase in out pressure increasing the injection rate, but I can't say ever read of that happening. 

On the skimmer, can you not just increase the surface agitation from your spray bar? I don't tend to use surface skimmers anymore, and rely on the main filter outlet to provide sufficient surface agitation (often physically breaking the surface layer) to prevent surface film forming. I get a bit of film in between floating plants, but they're usually so dense I can't see it.


----------



## Hufsa

I keep forgetting things that I have wanted to include in my posts, im sorry for spamming the forum so much 

Two things I forgot in the last one:
I dosed a capful of Fe gluconate yesterday, just to get the plants on their feet after the water change a little quicker. One capful is about 5 ml, so for my tank that makes 0.2 ppm.
Not planning to do this every week, just wanted to see if it would help things along a bit. I looked at the stargrass which is a very fast grower and thought it could use a little tasty pick-me-up. As my tank develops over the years I have found that my sense of when something is a little off or needs a bit of so and so is also improving. Im a big fan of going with ones gut feeling when that is reasonable.

When I was looking over the light spectrum I also changed the percentages on the channels a bit, all of them now run at 70%. No spike in red and no lower on blue. Subject to change again.
In a while I am planning to increase the total percentage _Hufsa-gradually,_ not right now because theres been several changes including longer photoperiod, but when things settle down again I might go to 80% and monitor, and then 90% etc. I think ive just been hanging around @JoshP12 too much 😁 The Fluval 3.0's arent terribly powerful lights anyway, so running 100% in this case is much less hardcore than it is for Chihiros or Week users. But if things start going sideways I always have the option to go back down again.




Wookii said:


> Assuming you have a dual stage regulator, the only other main potential failure point (other than human error, which is probably the main one) could be the needle valve, so running dual valves can mitigate that. I have the el-chaepo CO2 art needle valve set just slightly above the output I want, and then the decent Camozzi Precision needle valve after it setting the real CO2 flow levels. If either one fails, the other should limit output. I guess there is a tiny risk of the second stage valve on the regulator failing and the increase in out pressure increasing the injection rate, but I can't say ever read of that happening.


Nice, very good input thank you. I have the same setup as you for needle valves, I would only need to check where the el-cheapo is sitting before readjusting with the Camozzi and then that part would also be gone over 


Wookii said:


> On the skimmer, can you not just increase the surface agitation from your spray bar? I don't tend to use surface skimmers anymore, and rely on the main filter outlet to provide sufficient surface agitation (often physically breaking the surface layer) to prevent surface film forming. I get a bit of film in between floating plants, but they're usually so dense I can't see it.


I could try, my top spray bar is due for refurbishing anyway, and I think I want it sitting higher on the back wall. I think there will still be film in the corners though. 

If the level of surface film stayed the same at all times it wouldnt really be an issue, but what if for instance I put in a big piece of fresh redmoor, and accidentally cause a big microbe bloom. This exact thing has happened to me, I dont remember if I had thick surface scum in addition to the very heavily clouded water, but those kinds of "oops" situations are ones im thinking about when im trying to design a relatively safe system.
In such a situation the skimmer would clear any sudden increase in surface scum and make sure that the offgassing remains where it needs to be.
Maybe some will laugh at me for thinking so much about this, but I would rather overthink when it comes to the safety aspect than underthink.


Speaking of CO2 in general, im not satisfied with the Yidao reactor and I am planning to replace it. Theres been a few _incidents_ where I have struggled to get a good seal on it after maintenance, leading to many hours late into the night of swearing while sitting on wet towels around the cabinet, and the reactor itself doesnt seem capable of fully dealing with the injection rate and flow that I have on my system.
Ive implemented the internal venturi modification and that bit, but im still seeing some microbubbles escaping into the tank, and im getting a fair bit of gas bubble build up in the top of the reactor.
Basically not happy with the build quality of the reactor or the capacity. I will probably be making a DIY one, but havent decided exactly what design to go for yet. I think I need a bypass as well if I want to have it running on a powerful pump. Im very tempted to run the CO2 injection on its own loop with just a pump, no filter that can vary the flow through that part of the system. The pump and reactor would then drive the top spray bar and be responsible for the majority of the surface agitation. Im wondering if I should buy the pump first and then design the rest around it, I want a reputable brand pump since this would be the heart of the tank, and I think it needs to be adjustable somehow so I wont get _too much flow_ in the tank either.
Appreciate any ideas from you guys 🙂


----------



## JoshP12

Oh no @Hufsa - be careful hanging around me 😂. You’ll end up doing crazy things.

I will say, I see nothing bad that can happen to increasing light.

So you increase light, and maybe you need more co2, so you turn it up; then you don’t need as much ramp since you have higher injection rate, so you shave 30 minutes and your fish are subject to less co2 without lights on … if still issues, more agitation (more gas exchange, more stability), higher injection rate, less ramp, more, constant flow of co2 - happy plants? More O2, more pH stability management - happier fish.

😂

Oh and nicer plant forms and water column cleaned faster …

You could prepare a month before by adding root tabs just to be sure it won’t be nutrient related …


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> Speaking of CO2 in general, im not satisfied with the Yidao reactor and I am planning to replace it. Theres been a few _incidents_ where I have struggled to get a good seal on it after maintenance, leading to many hours late into the night of swearing while sitting on wet towels around the cabinet, and the reactor itself doesnt seem capable of fully dealing with the injection rate and flow that I have on my system.
> Ive implemented the internal venturi modification and that bit, but im still seeing some microbubbles escaping into the tank, and im getting a fair bit of gas bubble build up in the top of the reactor.
> Basically not happy with the build quality of the reactor or the capacity. I will probably be making a DIY one, but havent decided exactly what design to go for yet. I think I need a bypass as well if I want to have it running on a powerful pump. Im very tempted to run the CO2 injection on its own loop with just a pump, no filter that can vary the flow through that part of the system. The pump and reactor would then drive the top spray bar and be responsible for the majority of the surface agitation. Im wondering if I should buy the pump first and then design the rest around it, I want a reputable brand pump since this would be the heart of the tank, and I think it needs to be adjustable somehow so I wont get _too much flow_ in the tank either.
> Appreciate any ideas from you guys 🙂


I think you can go for a dual stage reactor, triple venturi, semi acoustic vortex absorption, filled with bioballs and DC pump. 
Alternatively you could just cut a half pipe, and test a CO2 Spray Bar. With your water spray bar over the full tank length, testing a CO2 spray bar will be easy.


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> I think you can go for a dual stage reactor, triple venturi, semi acoustic vortex absorption, filled with bioballs and DC pump.


😂 Had me in the first half, not gonna lie. Im assuming ill also need a flux capacitor and a plasma field generator



Yugang said:


> Alternatively you could just cut a half pipe, and test a CO2 Spray Bar. With your water spray bar over the full tank length, testing a CO2 spray bar will be easy.


Hmmm you did attempt this sale at a very convenient time 🤔🤔
My main obstacle would be cutting the pipe lengthways, I dont have any good tools for this job other than handtools..
It will need to be maybe 80cm or so, and while my tank is not exactly known for its flawless glossy look, I would prefer it if the bar didnt look like it was made by a blind half drunk monkey 😬 (Its me, im the monkey 🙈)

Would the CO2 spray bar be mounted above and behind the circulation spray bar?
And what about my bottom spray bar that runs along the back? This one sends the flow directly up the back wall and causes a small ripple on the surface that is visible when the top bar is powered off.


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> Hmmm you did attempt this sale at a very convenient time 🤔🤔


To tell you the truth, I am past the point where I tried to sell the idea. I am using my CO2 Spray Bar, my reactor in storage and no longer used. I shared my experience in a detailed posting for the benefit of other hobbyists.
I have almost given up on the expectation that this forum brings real progress, even after all evidence has been presented. This is not a problem for me, just an observation.



Hufsa said:


> My main obstacle would be cutting the pipe lengthways, I dont have any good tools for this job other than handtools..


I only have hand tools, and I don't consider myself very skilled. I now build a CO2 Spray Bar in one hour, and spend a few GBP on it. I described the process in the thread. Takes a little practice, but the worst is to throw away a plastic pipe and try one more time.



Hufsa said:


> Would the CO2 spray bar be mounted above and behind the circulation spray bar?


      Slighly above     



Hufsa said:


> And what about my bottom spray bar that runs along the back? This one sends the flow directly up the back wall and causes a small ripple on the surface that is visible when the top bar is powered off.


Not sure yet. I would personally prefer to have all flow from one spray bar.


----------



## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> I only have hand tools, and I don't consider myself very skilled. I now build a CO2 Spray Bar in one hour, and spend a few GBP on it. I described the process in the thread. Takes a little practice, but the worst is to throw away a plastic pipe and try one more time.
> Slighly above


Thanks for the link, I think I should refresh my memory of the thread because you did write about it extensively there 😃



Yugang said:


> Not sure yet. I would personally prefer to have all flow from one spray bar.


Im very reluctant to get rid of the lower bar, I know im more or less the only one who uses one like this but the pull and push it creates behind the thickest bit of plantmass in the tank is in my mind very precious and i consider it a real benefit.
Its possible that I could tweak it so that it does not interfere with the top of the watercolumn though.

I really need to give this some serious thought, I have wanted to try out the CO2 spray bar, and now would be a very convenient time, before starting a big project of making the perfect sonic plasma coil absorption injection system 🤔


----------



## RLee2

Yugang said:


> To tell you the truth, I am past the point where I tried to sell the idea. I am using my CO2 Spray Bar, my reactor in storage and no longer used. I shared my experience in a detailed posting for the benefit of other hobbyists.
> I have almost given up on the expectation that this forum brings real progress, even after all evidence has been presented. This is not a problem for me, just an observation.


I enjoyed your post on the co2 spray bar. It appears to be a solid solution for co2 dissolution plus is less expensive and requires less equipment.  I have my thoughts on why it may not be the best solution for high light tanks, and its purely aesthetics . I noticed in your particular setup you run 2 led fixtures very close to the water in the center of the tank.  The amount of light reaching the co2 tube and water spray bar are limited.  I use 6 T5ho tubes with dimmable ballasts over an 80 gal where the fixture is hanging from adjustable pulleys 9" above the water. I have 120 PAR at the substrate currently, dimmed, but can achieve 200 PAR by lowering the fixture and not dimming. My spray bar,  PVC pipe which is dark grey in color, receives lots of light and needs to be cleaned every 2 weeks by scrubbing the outside down with a melamine foam pad aka "magic eraser".  I can only imagine the scrubbing , inside and out, a clear co2 tube would require to keep clean. I have a  surface skimmer that has a clear top float part that I have to clean once a week , inside and out, and it gets dirty.  I also like to keep the equipment inside the tank to the bare minimum, no drop checkers, heaters, PH and temp probes ect. I use all the previous, except the drop checker, but they are mounted externally.


----------



## KirstyF

I think ur right that this solution may not be aesthetically pleasing to everyone @RLee2 but then again many people use clear tubing for their spray bars so the Co2 tube would need no more or less cleaning than those presumably. 

Whilst it’s an additional element, Co2 diffusers and reactors all need a certain level of cleaning and we all know folks that complain about having to bleach ceramic diffusers to keep them working properly etc so it’s horses for courses I guess. 

I have external heaters and reactors for aesthetic reasons as much as anything but still have gyres and spray bars for practical reasons. There’s always a compromise somewhere eh! 😊


----------



## Yugang

RLee2 said:


> I enjoyed your post on the co2 spray bar. It appears to be a solid solution for co2 dissolution plus is less expensive and requires less equipment.  I have my thoughts on why it may not be the best solution for high light tanks, and its purely aesthetics . I noticed in your particular setup you run 2 led fixtures very close to the water in the center of the tank.  The amount of light reaching the co2 tube and water spray bar are limited.  I use 6 T5ho tubes with dimmable ballasts over an 80 gal where the fixture is hanging from adjustable pulleys 9" above the water. I have 120 PAR at the substrate currently, dimmed, but can achieve 200 PAR by lowering the fixture and not dimming. My spray bar,  PVC pipe which is dark grey in color, receives lots of light and needs to be cleaned every 2 weeks by scrubbing the outside down with a melamine foam pad aka "magic eraser".  I can only imagine the scrubbing , inside and out, a clear co2 tube would require to keep clean. I have a  surface skimmer that has a clear top float part that I have to clean once a week , inside and out, and it gets dirty.  I also like to keep the equipment inside the tank to the bare minimum, no drop checkers, heaters, PH and temp probes ect. I use all the previous, except the drop checker, but they are mounted externally.


Thank you, fair remarks. Just a few remarks to answer your posting, but I try to avoid derailing @Hufsa thread, that I consider one of the best and most entertaining on UKAPS. May I suggest to post further discussion under the CO2 Spray Bar thread?

Aestetics is a valid argument, and you may be right that my particular lighting setup helps to hide the spray bar. What I can tell is that a transparent, not coloured, tube submerged in water is hardly visible. Most hobbyists use black, grey or green spray bars, black powerheads or gyres, and seem still fine with that.
I don't use glue on the spray bar, take it apart in one minute, take off algae and mount and align it again in perhaps 3 minutes.

As @Hufsa is already using a black water spray bar over the full tank length, replacing it with a transparent spray bar (water plus CO2) will only improve the aestetics of her tank.


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## Hufsa

Yugang said:


> As @Hufsa is already using a black water spray bar over the full tank length, replacing it with a transparent spray bar (water plus CO2) will only improve the aestetics of her tank.


Is this when I throw a wrench in the works and say I was actually thinking about doing a black CO2 spray bar 😁 My current water spray bar is actually grey, I didn't have the patience to spray paint it before putting it in 😅 Everyone has been very diplomatic and not said anything about how hideously it stands out either 😂
Im not a huge fan of scrubbing and only clean the plumbing of the tank when circulation demands it, theres no way a clear spray bar of any kind would be kept clean in my tank 😜 So better to go for black instead, and the BBA and the spray bars have a chance to blend in with the background 👍


----------



## MichaelJ

Hufsa said:


> I was actually thinking about doing a black CO2 spray bar


@Hufsa, I thought the same thing when looking at the picture .... Black would probably work the best in your tank 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Yugang

MichaelJ said:


> @Hufsa, I thought the same thing when looking at the picture .... Black would probably work the best in your tank
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


If you're fine with the aestetics of a black/grey tube, the added benefit is that sourcing materials and the DIY is easier as well, compared to a more fragile transparent tube.

My recommendation would be to make a new spray bar assembly (water spray bar with CO2 spray bar mounted to it), and just use that as a replacement in the tank. While testing and making sure you like it, you can keep the existing reactor hardware in place. When I got confident that I liked my CO2 Spray Bar better than my reactor, I took my reactor out and gained some additional flow. I am now sure I will never use my reactor again.


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> ?: There is an issue with the sand now that im pulling out plants so often. The bank of sand is sliding down in record time, and the layer of sand in the back covering the mesh bags is getting so thin its becoming hard to plant in. The crypts in the front also keep getting slightly buried in increasing amounts of sand. I need to remove the mesh bags of pebbles banking the substrate in the back, and get the tank set up with a perfectly level substrate. It wont be the best for visual depth but it will keep the sand from jumping around all over the place in the long run.


I was supposed to take it easy this week but instead I ended up doing this whopper of a job on wednesday.
Ive known this needed doing and been dreading the job for months, as I knew it was going to be an all day kind of task.
Theres never a "good time" to completely turn your tank on its head, aside from if you happen to need to move the tank anyway. 
So when I felt the slightest urge to begin the job on wednesday I knew the inclination wouldnt come again any time soon, and just started pulling out plants and doing it. 
It didnt take me long to regret starting it but half the plants were already out so I just needed to push on with it and get it done once and for all.
I started around 10:00 and wasnt finished putting everything back until 23:00 





I was torn whether I thought keeping the "aged detritus" in the sand was a beneficial thing for my tank or whether it was detrimental. 
My plan was to just skim off the topmost layer of sand and then carefully pull out the bags of gravel from under the sand. 
It quickly became apparent that this wasnt going to work, so I ended up using a hose and siphon to vacuum all of the sand out, bucket by bucket, until the gravel bags appeared.
I have previously added a few cups of coarser sand to see how I liked the look of a mixed substrate, and for some reason I really love this look in *other peoples tanks* but not my own. 
I dont know why. I will probably try to create the look again some time in the future, but this time definitely not adding it to the tank until I am 100% sure I like it!
Also, having mixed sand sizes works poorly on a banked substrate with sifting fish, because the biggest sizes will very quickly just settle in a layer at the lowest area of surface / front, ruining the mixed effect.
So I wanted to run my sand through a fine sieve/mesh to get the larger grains out and return to the uniform and clean look.
I kept the livestock in the tank and worked in one half at a time so they could hide out in the other.
My neocaridina were annoyingly not very interested in hiding, and had to constantly be herded away from the area I was working in to avoid vacuuming them.
They go absolutely crazy for the black/brown thing that grows in the sand along the pane of the glass, and as soon as a new bit of it was uncovered they were swarming over it to gobble it up.
I ended up grabbing a few big chunks of it for them and placing it away from the construction zone so they could have a lovely little picnic without getting in my way. This worked really well.





I washed my sand in the shower with aquarium temperature water. Enough to get most of the detritus out, but my goal was not to _clean_ the sand, just to give it a refresher. 
There was a fair amount of dirt particles in the sand despite the small grain size.
I have gotten more respect for the processes and microbes that live in a substrate since I joined UKAPS, and I already felt guilty about turning the entire microbial assemblage on their heads. 
I imagine that the microbes that live in the top 3mm of the substrate do not like living 30mm down in the substrate, and vice versa. So while everyone will need to reestablish themselves where they like to live, I wanted to at least make sure enough of them made it alive through the rinsing process to make sure they can bounce back within a couple of weeks time perhaps. So no hot or ice cold water.
Also most of my Thiara(?) sand snails were present through the process, and while these are really hardy snails I didnt want to be too mean to them.
After the rinsing of the sand I ran it bit by bit through a sieve I had which worked well to sort out larger grains, the few bits of detritus and old plant roots, weird black/brown yummy algae flakes and any snails. This was *a lot of work* and took hours.

I was quite pleasantly surprised by how well the substrate bags had held up, they have kept the very fine grain sand (0.1-0.5mm) out but still had a good smell to them, a faint smell of filter sponge.
I wasnt sure how much movement/circulation would get down through such fine particles. There was some very very fine dust that had made its way into the bags, but I imagine this has been a very slow process. This sand has been mostly undisturbed for about a year and a half if my memory serves. There were no black areas in the main part of the sand even in the deepest layers, no gas pockets or anything like that.
The only area that had any smell or gas pockets is the biome/band that had established on the edge of the substrate on the front glass and the right side of the tank.
We have discussed this layer before in my journal.
Its very interesting to see that this layer is almost entirely missing on the left side of the tank.
The left side does not get any sunlight or much light from the ambient lamps.
The very front left corner gets a little bit of light from the ceiling lamp in the other room, you can see a few smudges on the glass in the picture below.
This leads me to conclude that the band is made up of primarily photosynthetic organisms.





A while ago (late june) I removed this bacteria/algae band from the front right side of the tank, and left the front left side. Mostly just to see what would happen 



It didnt take long for me to see the band starting to grow back, it didnt creep out from the left, it just gradually faded back in again.
By now, about 3 months later it was almost back to the same thickness as the side that was not removed.
This band is comprised mainly of the "black/brown thing" that the shrimp and snails find so delicious, with a few small pockets of true Cyanobacteria sprinkled in here and there. Towards the very top of the band there is also a bit of green algae. This band seems entirely harmless to me, and it does not spread into the main bit of the substrate, it only grows right against the glass.
I slightly prefer the look of the tank without it, but having the band there doesnt bother me enough that I feel like regularly cleaning it to keep it away either.
Since I was taking all the sand out I scraped the glass clean down to the bottom on all sides while I had free access to it. I found it interesting how the black/brown thing can be slided off with a finger, while the true Cyanobacteria is attached much firmer and needed the algae scraper to come off.





There was no wonder I was struggling to replant stems before, the substrate thickness in the most problematic corner (back right) only had about 2cm of sand left to plant into.
Its going to be so much easier from now on, now I have a good depth of sand all the way over the substrate. I have lost a bit of visual depth now that the substrate is flat, but this is a much better long term solution for a tank that gets this much replanting. The fineness of the sand and the livestock that I keep definitely contributed to sand sliding down the bank, but it wasnt until I started uprooting and replanting so frequently, that the sliding really accelerated.
A flat substrate is definitely the way to go for this setup.

After shot:



A few of the plant groups have just been shoved in for now, its friday and my body is still hurting all over, so im doing a little bit per day.
In the back right you can see the bottom spray bar, this one was right above the back of the substrate before. And when the tank was originally set up, the right side filter intake sat right above the sand.
Needless to say the back of the tank is a lot deeper down now.
Ive gotten rid of the Ludwigia palustris 'Super Red', it is too rowdy, I have enough red plants and I can easily reacquire this if I regret it (but I dont think I will). 
Hygrophila polysperma is also gone, its too much work to keep in check and too large growing, and it is less useful as a chlorosis indicator than Heteranthera zosterifolia.
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba', im thinking of moving this one out of the tank and into an emersed culture.
Theres too many yellow/orange plants, and this one was always on my list of plants to remove eventually. Dont want to let it go completely though, therefore emersed culture.

Later on I have plans to remove:
Rotala rotundifolia 'H’ra'. My idea about using it as a nitrate indicator wasnt quite as useful as I thought it would be, and like I mentioned my tank is too heavy on the orange/yellow/red. 
I want to take a comparison picture of Orange Juice, H'ra, and Blood Red SG grown side by side in the same tank, and after that I am thinking of removing the H'ra. 
Heteranthera zosterifolia: Removing this one when the chlorosis issues have been thoroughly sorted, until then it makes a great indicator plant. Have Syngonanthus on my wish list which will bring some of this kind of bright green color back in to my tank later on.
Some crypts: Need to downsize crypt collection, have to grow them out big enough to tolerate shipping first. Most of the crypts currently still upset with me, this weeks upheaval probably wont help, but might as well get all the disturbances out of the way eh.


Now that the substrate is sorted I can also do an overhaul of the spraybars, intakes and general plumbing, as well as look closer into how I can implement the CO2 spraybar for testing 😃


----------



## erwin123

wow thats a lot of work    I think its a good call to remove the H'ra. Coincidentally I have a few stems of oranges growing with my Rotala SG and I think they make a nice colour contrast even though the leaf shape is the same.


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## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> wow thats a lot of work


It sure was  Glad to have it done and over with though!



erwin123 said:


> Coincidentally I have a few stems of oranges growing with my Rotala SG and I think they make a nice colour contrast even though the leaf shape is the same.


Yeah, I quite like the slightly fatter/wider leaf shape on Orange Juice and Blood Red SG 😃
Never been a fan of the thinnest leaved stems actually 🤔, main reason I dont go for any of the Wallichii types

Felt great to have just the little extra space gained by booting out Super Red and polysperma, now im looking for more things I dont "need" just to have that feeling again 
Probably should start planning the next tank upgrade at the rate this plant collection is increasing 😅


----------



## Libba

Love the way you describe the band. Makes me want to grow one too.


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## Hufsa

My tank has been running really hot these past days, a smidge over 27 degrees and I just couldnt figure out why.
We had turned the heat up in the apartment a little bit, so I was first wondering if it was somehow retaining the heat that well since its a big tank, or what else could be going on.

Well, it turns out I had plugged the inline heater into the cooling socket of the inkbird temperature controller 😅
So every time the controller sensed the tank was running a bit hotter than target, it turned on the cooling socket which then erroneously turned on the heater.
The inline heater was set to stop at 27 degrees as a safety precaution, so has been maintaining the tank at that temperature.
Im glad I had two thermostats on the system, even though this is not a way I was expecting a malfunction in (in this case I was the malfunctioning piece) 😅
Got everything plugged in the way its supposed to now, so expecting the tank to return to the normal 23-24 degrees.

Poor tank is really seeing a lot of fluctuations these days, first the turning down the CO2 because the skimmer is no longer running during the day, and now running several days at much higher temperatures.
BBA is going wild, same with GSA, and when I switched the micro mix the green thread algae really seemed to pick up.
In this case im not interpreting the increase in green thread algae as a bad thing, because the plants are looking greener from what I can tell (at least the Tonina tips).
So an increase in green algae could be a signal that overall plant growth conditions have improved, since green algae and plants are so closely related. At least this was a pattern I was seeing this summer.
But a lot of them seem unhappy about the CO2 fluctuations, both Rotala rotundifolia OJ and BR SG are doing some tip stunting, and rotundifolia is not normally a species to complain about minor issues.
I cant remember if ive already written about this in the journal, so apologies if I have, my memory is really not what it used to.
The Tonina is greener in the tips but smaller and looking a little weird. Pantanal has stunted again of course, but that doesnt really mean much, it stunts if I just look at it too hard 😁
So far increasing K has not stopped the Marilia from shedding just an insane amount of old leaves. Theres probably at least 30 old leaves floating around this morning, and thats just from over night.
Its this specific plant that seems to just be extremely prone to shedding old leaves.
There are symptoms of decaying old leaves in some of the other plants, but none of them are releasing any leaves from it, and certainly not at the sheer speed the Marilia does.
I need to let things run for longer before forming any theories, things definitely havent been stable (carbon is a mobile macronutrient) so could definitely produce symptoms like that.

Will try to grab some pictures of the plant growth soon, but first I need to fish out all these leaves and pull out some of this thread algae 😊
As long as no plant species are dying, im ok with having a few bumps in the road, its all part of the journey after all.


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## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> Well, it turns out I had plugged the inline heater into the cooling socket of the inkbird temperature controller 😅
> So every time the controller sensed the tank was running a bit hotter than target, it turned on the cooling socket which then erroneously turned on the heater.
> The inline heater was set to stop at 27 degrees as a safety precaution, so has been maintaining the tank at that temperature.



Oh wow - that was a lucky escape! Imagine if you'd just maxed out the temperature setting on the inline unit - that's be a cooked tank!


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## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Oh wow - that was a lucky escape! Imagine if you'd just maxed out the temperature setting on the inline unit - that's be a cooked tank!


Yep, could have gotten quite a bit hotter if I had just maxed it out as you say. When I set up the inline I intentionally set it slightly above the target temperature of the inkbird, the idea was that if the inkbird failed, the inline would cap out the damage that could be done. Having the inline set to max temperature would pretty much void the usefulness of having two points of temperature control.
The inkbird is wonderful though and the first day it hit 27.5 or something it sounded an alarm and I became aware that there was abnormally high temp in the tank. I just didn't look closely enough at where the plugs were sitting, I just kept monitoring the temperature readout to see if it kept rising, which it did not. So there was about two days of being a bit puzzled before I spotted the issue 😅

Im gonna block off the cooling socket with something safe and keep it like that in the winter season when the fans aren't mounted on the tank, that should prevent my fog brain from making this same mistake again


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## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> The inkbird is wonderful though and the first day it hit 27.5 or something it sounded an alarm



Yeah they are good - mine used to like going off at 2am if I forget to turn the pump back on, which is joyous! Until I set the Tapo up with a couple of additional on times.

Maybe put a piece of masking tape over the cooling socket so you don’t make the mistake again?


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## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> Maybe put a piece of masking tape over the cooling socket so you don’t make the mistake again?


Masking tape installed 👌

Will also pay more attention to the "Hufsa-proofing" aspect of tank security 😅
Usually havent been a problem but when im so tired and not entirely 100%, user error is a bit more likely.




FTS, had to take it on a bit of a slant, as some of the plant groups are newly trimmed and very short.
Ludwigia glandulosa and Ludwigia polycarpa look very cute next to each other, they look almost the same except for the color 😊
Dont pay attention to the blurple hue, phone camera was acting up. It seems to pick a hue at random, between yellow, pink, neutral or purple. I wonder if the multicolored LED lights are confusing it.
There is no actual blurple allowed in my house 

Ive done a little bit of work on the plumbing, the bottom spray bar has been lowered and cleaned, same with the right hand intake. Still grey PVC pipe as that is what I have on hand, its terribly difficult / almost impossible to find black PVC pipes in metric sizes, even inch sizes are super rare. And then if you find the pipes you wont see any fittings. But one seller on Aliexpress has recently started stocking black fittings as well, and I think with the amount of algae im having to scrub off the bars on a regular basis these days, having solid black instead of spray painted pipes would be a big advantage. I dont think the spray painted ones will be able to withstand the scrubbing needed to get off BBA without also removing the paint.
Im still talking to the seller trying to work out if custom ordering 1meter pieces instead of the regular 50cm ones will work out within my budget. Its a bit slow going because of the timezone difference.
The top spray bar has also been dilligently cleaned and mounted a bit higher, it now sits right below the surface and points mostly straight ahead instead of up.
Its not visible in the picture but rest assured it is also a very luminous grey color still 
Finally getting black plumbing after procrastinating for *years* is gonna be soooo nice. I hate the grey plumbing I just always go for function before form, and sometimes form is a little *lot*tle late 

Unfortunately I have some bad news (again again again), a couple of days ago I spotted a couple of shrimp with Scutariella 🤬😭😭
I was so sure I had beat them this time  The tank has been treated every other week since early june through to mid september, so three and a half months of treatment, and the shrimp have been visually free/clear for months. I did add the Caridina shrimp this fall, but somehow I dont think they brought in the parasite again.
They were visually free of parasites but I probably should have quarantined them regardless. Setting up a quarantine tank was just more than I had the energy for at the time.

When I saw the white parasites again on a couple of Neocaridina I just wanted to lie down on the floor and cry.. Im so so tired of dealing with this 😢
One of the really dumb things about being an adult is that lying down on the floor and crying doesnt help anything and just gives you a headache in addition to your original problem that you will still have to deal with on your own when youre done on the floor.
So instead while I was dying internally I contemplated if I was going to stop keeping shrimp altogether and cull the entire colony.
Its not like I could rehome them when they carry what must be a strain of Scutariella resistant to Praziquantel.
Even though I said I would before, I couldnt bring myself to do it.
I took a few days just to gather the strength to do anything about it.
I decided to dose the tank with Genchem No Planaria, and hoping it will finally do the trick. I must use something different and hopefully stronger than Prazi.
The problem with No Planaria is that it could kill all of the snails and render the substrate more or less permanently uninhabitable for burrowing snails.
My desire to keep my beloved snails and not have problems with the substrate has precluded me from using quite a few of the medications used for Scutariella.
But at this point I just cant any more. So I gave the tank slightly below full dose and will just have to deal with whatever the outcome is.
This parasite infestation has been an absolute joykiller and really puts a damper on the enjoyment I get from the other aspects of the tank 😓
As long as they are still a problem I cant truly relax and just enjoy the shrimp.

I dosed the first dose yesterday evening and so far the snails seem to be ok. I think I could be owed a little bit of luck in this situation.
Most of the sand snails are below the substrate in daytime, im pretty sure they know when the CO2 is on, and most of them hide away until the PH goes back to a less damaging level for their shells.
Maybe they can also sense the medication. I hope they pull through..


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## Hufsa

An unrelated note, this picture illustrates really well the difference in tolerance/requirements for different plant species and how unhappy/unhealthy plants are like magnets for algae.





To the left is Bacopa caroliniana 'Colorata'. Excuse the strange color, it turns pink under high light but my light is currently moderate so its this funky color instead.
To the right is Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'. 
The Bacopa is like the Honey badger, it dont care. There is nary a speck of algae on this plant even though there are several fairly severe issues going on in my tank. Its pretty clear the plant is still well within its specific tolerance ranges, since it is growing relatively well and isnt attracting/spawning any algae. The Pantanal on the other hand is, to say it lightly, a demanding plant. The older leaves are completely wilted and have been eaten by the livestock, the second oldest growth is covered in BBA and the newer portion is covered in slimy green thread algae. The tip has stunted and the plant is trying to restart by making a new tip.
These plants grow right next to each other, get the same amount of light, flow, exactly the same ferts. One has a ton of algae and one looks perfectly content.

Some plants have really wide ranges of parameters where they will still thrive and do well. Some plants have super narrow parameter ranges or very specific demands.
If you keep a tank of only the first kind of plant then the odds of you running into issues will be much lower. Same for vice versa. A mixed tank will really highlight the differences between the species/varieties.
The algae is on the Pantanal and not the Bacopa for a reason. Healthy plants wont have algae on them.
Then its just the "simple task" (not) of getting all the plants you want to keep to a healthy place / a parameter range that suits everybody.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk


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## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> I dosed the first dose yesterday evening and so far the snails seem to be ok. I think I could be owed a little bit of luck in this situation.
> Most of the sand snails are below the substrate in daytime, im pretty sure they know when the CO2 is on, and most of them hide away until the PH goes back to a less damaging level for their shells.
> Maybe they can also sense the medication. I hope they pull through..


Most, if not all of the sand snails have now died 😢



I cant spot any alive ones, Im kinda hoping a few will have miraculously survived deep in the sand and will repopulate my tank, but this dream is looking a little thin at the moment.
Most of the shells in the picture were empty, Im wondering if the kuhliis with the help of some shrimp have been eating the snails as they went over the rainbow bridge.. 🤐
When I finally discovered this pile (its pretty well hidden behind the plants and I thought the snails were just hiding in the sand), I instantly worried that I would be seeing an ammonia spike resulting from it. Strangely enough nothing seems to have happened in the tank, no bacteria bloom or increase in green algae of the fast and sudden type, no upset fish or really anything to put my finger on.
I think if there was any sudden increase in ammonia production then the plants probably took it as soon as it was available. It also probably helped that the snails were eaten instead of sitting around rotting, as morbid as that sounds. I didnt test the water for anything, Ive kinda been too sad about losing my sand snails to do much of anything about anything, even though I should have.

Im grateful for having so many fast growing plants picking up my slack, even when the slack is me being frozen by sadness. My tank seems quite a bit more robust now that the plants are growing with CO2-injection. It may be my imagination but the tank just takes a lot of things in its stride, and bounces back from insults very fast now compared to before. If it truly is like that then this somewhat makes up for the risks associated with CO2 I think.

Its too early to say if the No Planaria has worked well enough for treating the Scutariella, I try to check as many shrimp as I can each day on feeding time, but they are never all out at the same time, and there was only two shrimp out of a population of maybe a hundred that even had the parasite.
I will need to repeat the treatment in about a week to get the eggs that may hatch any way, so not much I can do other than monitor for now.
Really sad about the sand snails 😟 The other snail species in my tank dont seem to be affected, I still see them crawling around.

Yesterday I got a few 25mm PVC end caps from the pet store and today I started work on the CO2 spray bar, I am looking forward to hopefully getting my CO2-injection stable again.
The rotala rotundifolia varieties and mini macrandra are still acting up and I really want to get them back to growing well again.
I got about 2/3 of the way with cutting and sawing the bar itself, at some point I was cutting fingers more than I was cutting the PVC so I decided to break for the day and continue tomorrow with hopefully less blood 🙃
Then it needs sanding and a few coats of safe paint before drying and finally testing it out. I will need to make sure I can stay home with the tank all day for the first day or two since I dont want any unpleasant gas related incidents.

Looking forward to getting my tank back on track, it looks pretty terrible right now and doesnt bring me a lot of joy. The progress is pretty slow because of me, but im confident that I will get there eventually, so just have to stay with it 😊 Grateful for having such kind plants who are complaining but not dying, good sweet plants 😊 (Not Pantanal though, not nice at all )


----------



## Hufsa

Doing a bit of brainstorming here on my strange chlorosis issue, im not going to change the ferts at the moment im just doing some thinking for the future.
It doesnt make any sense to try out different ferts now when there are supply issues with the biggest plant nutrient carbon (CO2).
The growth of the plants right now is not stable and then why would their uptake of the other nutrients be. My physical energy is better spent fixing this huge glaring issue than making new ferts.
I havent just decided that my CO2 has issues, I have actually measured the drop and watched the curve several days, not with PH profile regularity, but enough to know that its jumping around all over the place.
That coupled with a bunch of plants screaming and twisting and the balance of the tank noticeably being off to my spidey sense is enough for me to be pretty sure that its an issue.
But that being said, when CO2 is sorted I have no reason to believe that the strange chlorosis issue wont continue. It was there before the CO2 issue and it will probably still be there after.

So the closest we have gotten to solving the chlorosis is with the current mix, which is relatively lower on micros than on iron.
On some of the easier plants the issue is not noticeable or not noticeable unless you know to look for it, and I would estimate the greenness is at about 75%-80% of where it should be. 
Just to have a term to use lets say 75%. So the current mix is a fair bit better than previous ones, which have resulted in much more chlorosis and much "lower percentages of greenness". Especially compared to whatever the plants had access to on that fateful week a while back where the Tonina basically turned white. I would call that 10% greenness compared to 75% on the current mix.




Previous result with using the 75% greenness mix:




Then I tried what looked like a good idea on paper, raising Mn and the other micros to be more in line with the iron. Plants didnt like that, somewhat less green, lets call it 50%:




Switched back to the 75% mix some weeks ago, dont have a current picture but hopefully the Tonina should look something like the previous 75% picture again.
Will take new pictures to confirm once things have calmed down a bit again.

Thoughts:
The water starts turning pink about a week after a water change, and this pink color strongly indicates that there is excess iron (Fe EDDHA) in the water column. This is corroborated by the water column testing positive for iron with a liquid test (exact ppm's not super important imo).
My question is, if this chlorosis is caused by a lack of iron in the plant, then why wouldnt the plants uptake the EDDHA?
Fe EDDHA is not super easy to uptake for plants compared to something like Fe Gluconate, but could it be so much harder to uptake that the plants would suffer iron deficiency while sitting in pink water? I find that idea hard to get behind, but I cant rule it out completely of course.
Previously I saw the plants got better, but not all the way to 100%, and then assumed that the remaining issue might be manganese (Mn). If the iron is plentiful and the issue persists then raising the second most needed trace that also can result in chlorosis seemed like a logical choice. Unfortunately I got a little bit greedy with my changes and I also raised the other traces, which means we didnt get to observe what effect raising just Mn had. Zn, B, Cu and Mo were also raised.
According to Mulder's chart (yep shes going there folks, desperate times call for desperate measures 😂 )
Zn exhibits antagonism with Fe, Mn, and Cu.
Cu exhibits antagonism with Fe, Mn, and Zn.
B and Mo is not likely an issue.
So me raising Zn and Cu along with the Mn could have affected the outcome I suppose.

Thats gives us one thing we could try, raising just Mn and nothing else. (Again, not right now of course, needs to wait until things are stable again)
Since the plants grow perfectly "ok" with the 75% greenness recipe, I can afford to take my time and make only small changes from that baseline.
I need to restrain myself from doing too many changes at once even if I think it makes sense at the time.

Another thing we could try is switching the Fe EDDHA and DTPA, for some mix of Fe Gluconate and DTPA. Very interestingly @KirstyF  saw good results in her tank, at the same total level of iron dosing, when switching out her chelates. I believe she was dosing something like 0.3 ppm Fe total with stronger chelates and seeing chlorosis, and when she switched to the same 0.3 total but with weaker chelates, the chlorosis stopped. With her very hard tap water it makes no sense that it would work better but somehow it did.
Part of me wonders if parts of the Fe Gluconate just precipitated for her and somehow that worked out with the total micro balance, but I dont know man.

Im grasping at straws with the chlorosis because I dont really know whats going on, and it seems neither does anyone else.
If someone asked me a year ago if I thought micro ferts mattered this much or if there was any point in futzing around with such small changes then I would have said "no way!".
But unless one of ya'll want to step in and tell me what I need to do to fix this chlorosis, then this is what I have to resort to.
And I swear to god if someone says "More CO2!" to fix chlorosis then they're gonna get smacked with an Eheim pipe  It works for a lot of problems but not this one 😋

More things to try might be looking closer at whatever @plantnoobdude is doing for traces (that glorious b*stard with his beautiful plants ), since he previously had chlorosis issues but has now fixed them (by going very low). I imagine maybe I wont be able to dose quite as low as he does if there is any link between water hardness and micros needed, since he uses bespoke remineralization to RO water while I am using tap water with a little bit of hardness. I will also be very interested to see if his super low micro dosing continues to work now that he has switched to sand.

Basically theres a few different things I can try later on and these are my thoughts on them. Would be happy to hear more thoughts on this from anyone reading this post 😊

Im off to saw off my knuckles continue working on the CO2 spray bar


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## erwin123

Wouldn't the 50% green be considered 'healthy enough?' 
My Tonina's are look like they are at the 50% green level - they have plenty of healthy sideshoots so I assume the plant is growing well even though it is not as 'green' as the 75% green.


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## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Doing a bit of brainstorming here on my strange chlorosis issue, im not going to change the ferts at the moment im just doing some thinking for the future.
> It doesnt make any sense to try out different ferts now when there are supply issues with the biggest plant nutrient carbon (CO2).
> The growth of the plants right now is not stable and then why would their uptake of the other nutrients be. My physical energy is better spent fixing this huge glaring issue than making new ferts.
> I havent just decided that my CO2 has issues, I have actually measured the drop and watched the curve several days, not with PH profile regularity, but enough to know that its jumping around all over the place.
> That coupled with a bunch of plants screaming and twisting and the balance of the tank noticeably being off to my spidey sense is enough for me to be pretty sure that its an issue.
> But that being said, when CO2 is sorted I have no reason to believe that the strange chlorosis issue wont continue. It was there before the CO2 issue and it will probably still be there after.
> 
> So the closest we have gotten to solving the chlorosis is with the current mix, which is relatively lower on micros than on iron.
> On some of the easier plants the issue is not noticeable or not noticeable unless you know to look for it, and I would estimate the greenness is at about 75%-80% of where it should be.
> Just to have a term to use lets say 75%. So the current mix is a fair bit better than previous ones, which have resulted in much more chlorosis and much "lower percentages of greenness". Especially compared to whatever the plants had access to on that fateful week a while back where the Tonina basically turned white. I would call that 10% greenness compared to 75% on the current mix.
> View attachment 196154
> 
> Previous result with using the 75% greenness mix:
> View attachment 196156
> 
> Then I tried what looked like a good idea on paper, raising Mn and the other micros to be more in line with the iron. Plants didnt like that, somewhat less green, lets call it 50%:
> View attachment 196159
> 
> Switched back to the 75% mix some weeks ago, dont have a current picture but hopefully the Tonina should look something like the previous 75% picture again.
> Will take new pictures to confirm once things have calmed down a bit again.
> 
> Thoughts:
> The water starts turning pink about a week after a water change, and this pink color strongly indicates that there is excess iron (Fe EDDHA) in the water column. This is corroborated by the water column testing positive for iron with a liquid test (exact ppm's not super important imo).
> My question is, if this chlorosis is caused by a lack of iron in the plant, then why wouldnt the plants uptake the EDDHA?
> Fe EDDHA is not super easy to uptake for plants compared to something like Fe Gluconate, but could it be so much harder to uptake that the plants would suffer iron deficiency while sitting in pink water? I find that idea hard to get behind, but I cant rule it out completely of course.
> Previously I saw the plants got better, but not all the way to 100%, and then assumed that the remaining issue might be manganese (Mn). If the iron is plentiful and the issue persists then raising the second most needed trace that also can result in chlorosis seemed like a logical choice. Unfortunately I got a little bit greedy with my changes and I also raised the other traces, which means we didnt get to observe what effect raising just Mn had. Zn, B, Cu and Mo were also raised.
> According to Mulder's chart (yep shes going there folks, desperate times call for desperate measures 😂 )
> Zn exhibits antagonism with Fe, Mn, and Cu.
> Cu exhibits antagonism with Fe, Mn, and Zn.
> B and Mo is not likely an issue.
> So me raising Zn and Cu along with the Mn could have affected the outcome I suppose.
> 
> Thats gives us one thing we could try, raising just Mn and nothing else. (Again, not right now of course, needs to wait until things are stable again)
> Since the plants grow perfectly "ok" with the 75% greenness recipe, I can afford to take my time and make only small changes from that baseline.
> I need to restrain myself from doing too many changes at once even if I think it makes sense at the time.
> 
> Another thing we could try is switching the Fe EDDHA and DTPA, for some mix of Fe Gluconate and DTPA. Very interestingly @KirstyF  saw good results in her tank, at the same total level of iron dosing, when switching out her chelates. I believe she was dosing something like 0.3 ppm Fe total with stronger chelates and seeing chlorosis, and when she switched to the same 0.3 total but with weaker chelates, the chlorosis stopped. With her very hard tap water it makes no sense that it would work better but somehow it did.
> Part of me wonders if parts of the Fe Gluconate just precipitated for her and somehow that worked out with the total micro balance, but I dont know man.
> 
> Im grasping at straws with the chlorosis because I dont really know whats going on, and it seems neither does anyone else.
> If someone asked me a year ago if I thought micro ferts mattered this much or if there was any point in futzing around with such small changes then I would have said "no way!".
> But unless one of ya'll want to step in and tell me what I need to do to fix this chlorosis, then this is what I have to resort to.
> And I swear to god if someone says "More CO2!" to fix chlorosis then they're gonna get smacked with an Eheim pipe  It works for a lot of problems but not this one 😋
> 
> More things to try might be looking closer at whatever @plantnoobdude is doing for traces (that glorious b*stard with his beautiful plants ), since he previously had chlorosis issues but has now fixed them (by going very low). I imagine maybe I wont be able to dose quite as low as he does if there is any link between water hardness and micros needed, since he uses bespoke remineralization to RO water while I am using tap water with a little bit of hardness. I will also be very interested to see if his super low micro dosing continues to work now that he has switched to sand.
> 
> Basically theres a few different things I can try later on and these are my thoughts on them. Would be happy to hear more thoughts on this from anyone reading this post 😊
> 
> Im off to saw off my knuckles continue working on the CO2 spray bar


Fe 0.0875ppm DTPA
Mn 0.0465ppm Edta
Zn 0.015ppm. EDTA
Cu 0.00275ppm EDTA
Mo 0.002ppm NH4
Ni. 0.00035ppm SO4
B. 0ppm
Is what I dose weekly.  If needed you can try dose that x2 or three per week and add your Eddha as well.
Add some B as well if you want, 1:1~2:1 B:Zn seems to be a good start.


----------



## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> Wouldn't the 50% green be considered 'healthy enough?'
> My Tonina's are look like they are at the 50% green level - they have plenty of healthy sideshoots so I assume the plant is growing well even though it is not as 'green' as the 75% green.


Hmm not healthy enough for me 🤔 Everyone will have different goals for what they want from their tank I suspect. I am especially interested in trying to tease out as close to ideal/perfect plant forms as I can within the setup that I have.
I want new leaves to be very close to or the same color as mature leaves, as close as the specific plant species will allow. Obviously the species are a bit different in how new growth looks, take the java fern for instance with translucent new tips. But im fairly sure there is more green to be had in Tonina than the pic I have called 75%.
You get sideshoots on your Tonina? How interesting, mine dont do that for some reason.



plantnoobdude said:


> ...Is what I dose weekly.


Thanks for the updated numbers 😃 Ill jot them down so I have them accessible. I might have to dose some Boron yes, my tap water contains very little afaik.


----------



## erwin123

Hufsa said:


> Hmm not healthy enough for me 🤔 Everyone will have different goals for what they want from their tank I suspect. I am especially interested in trying to tease out as close to ideal/perfect plant forms as I can within the setup that I have.
> I want new leaves to be very close to or the same color as mature leaves, as close as the specific plant species will allow. Obviously the species are a bit different in how new growth looks, take the java fern for instance with translucent new tips. But im fairly sure there is more green to be had in Tonina than the pic I have called 75%.
> You get sideshoots on your Tonina? How interesting, mine dont do that for some reason.







Ah, I didn't know you were not getting sideshoots... will let @plantnoobdude update us on whether he gets sideshoots in his. 
This is shot of the lower leaves of the Toninas. There is on the right, a single stem of what I believe is a cuphea with lots of BBA on the lower stem. The part with the BBA is the old growth so I guess I should cut and replant soon. However, since I unable to get any colour out of it I'm probably not keeping it....


----------



## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> View attachment 196169


Can you take a photo from the top too with the surface agitation off? Because of how cameras react to strong aquarium lights, comparing lightness from side photos can be quite difficult


----------



## plantnoobdude

erwin123 said:


> will let @plantnoobdude update us on whether he gets sideshoots in his


Lemme get a pic. 


erwin123 said:


> believe is a cuphea


Yup, that’s cuphea. A real pain to grow to be honest.
Here are mine, they only make side shoots when they reach the top of the tank, but again, fluviatilis and lotus blossom could have different growth habits!  I am  quite happy of the fact that old leaves are healthy with no apparent signs of deterioration.


----------



## plantnoobdude




----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> there is excess iron (Fe EDDHA) in the water column. This is corroborated by the water column





Hufsa said:


> Im grasping at straws with the chlorosis because I dont really know whats going on, and it seems neither does anyone else.





Hufsa said:


> And I swear to god if someone says "More CO2!" to fix chlorosis then they're gonna get smacked with an Eheim pipe  It works for a lot of problems but not this one 😋


Do you wanna smack me with the pipe? 😁 or twiddle with ratios? It's not the amount, it's the consistency.


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Do you wanna smack me with the pipe? 😁 or twiddle with ratios? It's not the amount, it's the consistency.


There has been consistent surplus of iron for a couple of months now John. Why arent the plants uptaking it?


----------



## John q

Hufsa said:


> There has been consistent surplus of iron for a couple of months now John. Why arent the plants uptaking it?


Because it's not an iron deficiency, would be my guess mate. Don't scream at me but..  is the CO2 stable 🤔


----------



## Hufsa

John q said:


> Because it's not an iron deficiency, would be my guess mate. Don't scream at me but..  is the CO2 stable 🤔


Chlorosis is not a symptom related to CO2.

Ill say it one more time for people who might be hard of hearing:
*Chlorosis is not a symptom related to CO2.*

Not everything is about CO2 John.
CO2 plays a major role in high tech tanks because it is the biggest plant nutrient and it doesnt particularly want to be in the water. We all know this.
But just because it is a big player does not make it the ONLY player.
If you really cant come to terms with that then I think it would be better for you to keep your suggestions on this problem to yourself.


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> Chlorosis is not a symptom related to CO2.
> 
> Ill say it one more time for people who might be hard of hearing:
> *Chlorosis is not a symptom related to CO2.*
> 
> Not everything is about CO2 John.
> CO2 plays a major role in high tech tanks because it is the biggest plant nutrient and it doesnt particularly want to be in the water. We all know this.
> But just because it is a big player does not make it the ONLY player.
> If you really cant come to terms with that then I think it would be better for you to keep your suggestions on this problem to yourself.


I’m going to have to agree….


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> There has been consistent surplus of iron for a couple of months now John. Why arent the plants uptaking it?



I think that a very valid question John.

Cos this wasn’t Co2





Or this




Or this




And it was solved, not by increasing Fe but by changing the type of Fe used. 

So that there is a ferts issue right! 

The question is why did a mix that includes Fe gluconate fix the issue (in my hard water tank) when both a DTPA and a DTPA/EDDHA mix failed? 

Hufsa’s issue/tank may not be identical but nor should we conclude that ferts are not the problem. They clearly were for me. 

Co2 was not changed in the making of this blyxa. 😂


----------



## John q

plantnoobdude said:


> I’m going to have to agree….


To be honest I also agree but adding more iron, regardless of its chleate is clearly not working. Probably time for me to sit this one out.

Hugs and kisses @Hufsa  no hard feelings 😘


----------



## JoshP12

Been sitting here thinking what to say.

If something has no (or little) inhibition (such as something blocking it or making it more difficult … like co2 at higher KH is harder), and it is in abundance (over the demand for that moment), then increasing the concentration won’t fix it. Unless, the increase in concentration will overcome the amount of inhibition.

In other words, 30 co2 in high KH water may yield deficiency but 50 co2 will fix it. Conversely, reducing KH to lower KH may make 30 co2 fine. But lowering KH will decrease its inhibition of other factors such as MAYBE - just pretend - Ca and Mg … and so even though co2 works better … maybe the things Ca and Mg interact with will be skewed. And we begin to see a cascade of deficiency that didn’t exist under one circumstance but the same parameters would induce them in another.

I think that’s where we are. You have a water column and a substrate playing together to meet a demand. The substrate has roots to somewhat selectively (with help from the surrounding biology etc) extract nutrients from it and meet any demand. The water has leaves to do the same thing but extract it from water. These two systems (top and bottom) work together to meet the demand ironically, dictated by the demand 😂.

It’s constant chaos, a juggle, of trying to grow  with a somewhat changing system. That’s the consistency piece - to make it easier for the plant since the demand would in theory oscillate around some “inertia” (since as it grows, the demands and environment change yet again (also responding to everything else around if) but that’s too much to consider).

But what happens if you’re consistently providing an environment where the inhibitions are too hard to overcome for the set of conditions?  The plant adapts to the best it can - growing with deficiency. Twisting, chlorosis etc.

It’s like these two dynamical systems which respond to eachother - and there is some nutrients that allow the communication to happen (might be potassium 😂). Once they figure it out, they grow to try to survive.

I haven’t considered if co2 could have any relation to chlorosis … but if we take the same lens to deficiencies as we do to algae (so BBA means you messed up something worse than if you green thread for example … or staghorn vs bba), then the smaller the deformity, the smaller the issue?

Stunting, curling - is bigger than a bit of inter veinal chlorosis … I don’t know if co2 could have a small enough impact on a plant to cause zero deformity except for a little off coloration …

Never thought about it.

All that to say, without nutrients at the roots, it’s harder since you only have the top to “get it right”.

What a ramble 😅.


----------



## Hufsa

KirstyF said:


> The question is why did a mix that includes Fe gluconate fix the issue (in my hard water tank) when both a DTPA and a DTPA/EDDHA mix failed?


Thats the big question isnt it. It doesnt really fit with what we think about iron chelates.
Switching Fe DTPA & EDDHA to DTPA and Gluconate is _probably_ the next thing ill try on the micro front, to see if I can replicate the same results.
I never would have thought it would make a difference, especially in a tank with 12 dKH like Kirsty's, but its hard to argue with those pictures, and Kirsty keeps her tank pretty dang stable.
As ive already mentioned a couple of times im not doing micro tweaking for a while because I have more pressing concerns at the moment like the CO2 stability being off (it has been a small problem over summer but turned into a big problem when I changed when the skimmer runs and thus the surface agitation - injection balance).
This has produced noticeable but very different symptoms to chlorosis. Twisting, curling, puckering and sudden stunting of plants that were previously growing perfectly well formed leaves, plants not recovering well from trims, algae blooms, those sorts of symptoms. Im on top of it, but its a different thing from chlorosis.
Im not going to add any more iron, the water is pink and the iron test readout is solid, so there wouldnt be any point in adding just more of the exact same stuff.
Its even possible that I could try to decrease the iron/micros later on (when the chlorosis is gone), IF the level of micros needed follow the KH/GH. So hard water could need more micros because of precipitation or uptake issues. Im not saying thats the case though, its just an interesting idea. If 0.3 ppm Fe is enough in Kirsty's tank with 12dKH, and 0.0875 ppm Fe is enough in Plantnoobdude's tank with 0 or 1 dKH, then my tank with 3 dKH could need something between that. It could explain why no one seems to agree on how much micros you need, and a few other bits.

It would be super interesting if @KirstyF would try leaving everything the same, but instead of dosing DTPA and gluconate, dose only DTPA and NOT replace the gluconate with anything (so same amount of DTPA, no Gluconate, meaning less iron in total).
If it gives the exact same results then odds are the gluconate was precipitating before the plants could get it, and not contributing much. But if the plants turn pale again, then it indicates that its actually getting to the plants despite the very hard water. We would then possibly have to adjust our traditional view that Fe Gluconate is of little use in hard water tanks.



KirstyF said:


> Hufsa’s issue/tank may not be identical but nor should we conclude that ferts are not the problem. They clearly were for me.
> 
> Co2 was not changed in the making of this blyxa. 😂


Exactly 😊

Nutrient tunnel vision is definitely a real thing. Ive had it before and I am wary of getting it again, its not productive and just leads you around in circles for a while before you figure it out.
However there also seems to be some sort of CO2 tunnel vision going around, which isnt that much better than the former.
Just like not everything is a nutrient issue, not everything is a CO2 issue either. Black and white thinking is tempting and easy but performs poorly in a shades of grey world.
Im pretty sure that in order to become a skilled aquarist you have to be able to view the system as a whole, and identify and address potential issues in all aspects of the tank.
Light, CO2, flow, fertilizer, maintenance, etc etc.



JoshP12 said:


> It’s constant chaos, a juggle, of trying to grow  with a somewhat changing system. That’s the consistency piece - to make it easier for the plant since the demand would in theory oscillate around some “inertia” (since as it grows, the demands and environment change yet again (also responding to everything else around if) but that’s too much to consider).


Definitely a lot of moving parts in a planted tank, biomass is always changing, flow is altered as plants grow in, pipes grow biofilm and get cleaned making small variations in flow, all kinds of stuff.



JoshP12 said:


> I haven’t considered if co2 could have any relation to chlorosis … but if we take the same lens to deficiencies as we do to algae (so BBA means you messed up something worse than if you green thread for example … or staghorn vs bba), then the smaller the deformity, the smaller the issue?





JoshP12 said:


> Stunting, curling - is bigger than a bit of inter veinal chlorosis … I don’t know if co2 could have a small enough impact on a plant to cause zero deformity except for a little off coloration …


I do firmly believe that big issues come from big causes, and small issues from small causes. I also think that remembering this is how you navigate in rabbit holes that are really easy to get lost in in this hobby. Thats not to say that *a lot* of small issues couldnt manifest into a big-ish problem, but it is less likely I think.
Take something like CO2 which is the nutrient in the highest demand, any significant problems with this and you should see big issues happening, a lot of the symptoms of CO2 issues are fairly dramatic and many of them are stopping of growth (stunting) or interruptions of normal growth and expansion (twisting, curling etc).
While a small issue, lets say... Mo is too low. You might see a small problem somewhere. Something not being quite right. But nothing dramatic. A trace nutrient so far down on the list should not be a likely candidate when you are trouble shooting bigger issues.
So when troubleshooting we have to keep both the size of the factors (like how much a plant needs of x nutrient) but also how likely an issue is to be x or y (if youre already adding x then maybe its not a lack of x).
If one convinces themselves that a really big problem is coming from a really small factor then the odds are that they are mistaken.

Im acutely aware of this as I am futzing about down here with Fe and Mn. But im not blaming any stunting or major structural issues on this. Production of chlorophyll in my tank is a bit off.
Not dramatically so (dramatic chlorosis would need a dramatic cause, like a week of three 75% water changes stripping the water column, that did happen).



JoshP12 said:


> All that to say, without nutrients at the roots, it’s harder since you only have the top to “get it right”.


Definitely harder to get everything "just right". But kinda fun also though! 😄


JoshP12 said:


> What a ramble 😅.


Wouldnt have it any other way 😊


----------



## Hufsa

CO2 spray bar has been painted with numerous coats of black Plasti-Dip and is now hanging to dry 💪
The can says it needs to dry for at least 10 hours, but I will probably leave it a fair bit longer because I want to make absolutely sure all the solvents have evaporated off and the paint cured completely.

I hope I can get the CO2 spray bar to work for me, otherwise im afraid @Yugang wont love me any more! 😭
😁

As far as "aquarium safe" black paints go, the two main options Ive found in my earlier research are Krylon Fusion and brand-name Plasti-Dip.
The Krylon Fusion is a "normal" kind of spray paint, while the Plasti Dip can technically be peeled off if you apply it in a thick enough layer, its like a rubber coating.
For our usage this is not really a bonus, we dont want the black coating on our black painted PVC pipes etc to come off.
But I have heard Krylon Fusion isnt entirely perfect either, and does scratch over time depending on how hard it is handled. Maybe @Wookii has some experience with it and can shed light?
This is my first time using Plasti-Dip so im interested to see how it will work out long term.
I still need to sort out some pipe holders for the suction cups, all of my pipe holder things stop at 20mm size, and while those could squeeze onto a 25mm pipe, they would definitely be hard on the paint, so I need to DIY something.
Really looking forward to hopefully have a stable CO2 injection again, my plants will breathe a big sigh of relief 😊


----------



## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> CO2 spray bar has been painted with numerous coats of black Plasti-Dip and is now hanging to dry 💪
> The can says it needs to dry for at least 10 hours, but I will probably leave it a fair bit longer because I want to make absolutely sure all the solvents have evaporated off and the paint cured completely.
> 
> I hope I can get the CO2 spray bar to work for me, otherwise im afraid @Yugang wont love me any more! 😭
> 😁
> 
> As far as "aquarium safe" black paints go, the two main options Ive found in my earlier research are Krylon Fusion and brand-name Plasti-Dip.
> The Krylon Fusion is a "normal" kind of spray paint, while the Plasti Dip can technically be peeled off if you apply it in a thick enough layer, its like a rubber coating.
> For our usage this is not really a bonus, we dont want the black coating on our black painted PVC pipes etc to come off.
> But I have heard Krylon Fusion isnt entirely perfect either, and does scratch over time depending on how hard it is handled. Maybe @Wookii has some experience with it and can shed light?
> This is my first time using Plasti-Dip so im interested to see how it will work out long term.
> I still need to sort out some pipe holders for the suction cups, all of my pipe holder things stop at 20mm size, and while those could squeeze onto a 25mm pipe, they would definitely be hard on the paint, so I need to DIY something.
> Really looking forward to hopefully have a stable CO2 injection again, my plants will breathe a big sigh of relief 😊


Really excited to see how it goes for you, cleaning a diffuser every month or so gets old quick!


----------



## Wookii

Hufsa said:


> But I have heard Krylon Fusion isnt entirely perfect either, and does scratch over time depending on how hard it is handled. Maybe @Wookii has some experience with it and can shed light?



It’s pretty tough to be fair - I’ve never scratched it, and it requires no undercoat. I’ve used it to paint a fair few filter inlet and outlet pipes, and overflow pipes and bulk heads that started life white.

I’ve never used Plasti-dip inside a tank though, only on the rear glass as a background paint, so I’ve no idea how it fairs underwater.


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> It would be super interesting if @KirstyF would try leaving everything the same, but instead of dosing DTPA and gluconate, dose only DTPA and NOT replace the gluconate with anything (so same amount of DTPA, no Gluconate, meaning less iron in total).
> If it gives the exact same results then odds are the gluconate was precipitating before the plants could get it, and not contributing much. But if the plants turn pale again, then it indicates that its actually getting to the plants despite the very hard water. We would then possibly have to adjust our traditional view that Fe Gluconate is of little use in hard water tanks.



Hehe…..so you mean, now I’ve got it all pretty, just go on ahead and duff it all up again…..for the sake of science! 😂

🤔Yeah, I could probably do that. 😊👍

I’m playing with getting perfect GSA free Anubias at the moment (in higher light than they really want to be in, me thinks) for which I think at least one of the parameters for success is uber stability…. I can then confirm if the new growth adapts to a new stable condition, where the older growth (With GSA 😡) could be saying…..come on now, stop with the twiddling and give me a break already! 

Or…more scientifically speaking…sacrificing adaption of older growth to changing conditions for the sake of focussing energy on newer growth in current conditions. 

I think I can only really confirm whether the Anubias will adapt comfortably to the light level, if I stick to a single set of parameters. (Light, flow, Co2, ferts, WC etc) for long enough to monitor that new growth…..which with Anubias….takes a while! 🙄

But once I have happily growing, GSA free Anubias, 🤞I’d be more than happy to sabotage it again and let you know results. 😊

Might be interesting to see if/what plants object to the treatment.


----------



## Hufsa

CO2 spray bar is in place in the tank and ready for testing with CO2 tomorrow 
I had hoped to get to testing today but there was a bit of delay with the 3D printed pipe holders for the suction cups.




CO2 spray bar shortly after drying. As you can see the end caps were reluctant to go on, the Plasti-Dip layer made the pipe too thick and I had to carefully remove the paint from the ends of the pipe and the inside of the caps.



It was quite easy to peel off even with the bit of sanding I had done on the PVC, so im definitely going to have to handle the bar carefully to avoid ripping up the coating.
If I were to paint it again I would probably want to find something other than Plasti-Dip, it just doesnt really fit the job of a permanent coating that we are wanting.

I had forgotten about needing somewhere to add the CO2 line to, but was able to retrofit an airline elbow piece. The fitting was just a hair over 5mm diameter, so I drilled 5mm and carefully ran the drill bit around the hole a little bit to make it ever so slightly larger. Then I could push-fit the elbow and it was snug but adjustable.




The opposite endcap has a 6mm (I went slightly bigger than Yugang's 5mm to allow for the paint to build a little bit) overflow hole, you can just about see the bubble on the right in the picture



Since the spray bar is black I wasnt able to use the handy trick of air bubbles to make sure it was perfectly level, but it just so happened that my airstone was still mounted in the tank and was positioned so that it filled up the spray bar with air when turned on. Between lowering the water level and filling the bar all the way up with air I was able to get it pretty level and test the overflow function too 😊

Annoyingly the CO2 inlet on the Yidao reactor leaked water even when it was fully closed with the screw, so instead of having a lot of aggro and hassle figuring out how to get the water to stop I removed the reactor from the filter and put in an old bit of just straight hose from filter to outlet, it was faster than trying to MacGyver something else.
This way I can also get the CO2 spray bar adjusted to the agitation of the filter when it is unburdened by the reactor.

I was cleaning the skimmer and wanted to see if I could get the electrical cord to run on the other side since it would be less in the way there. Unfortunately the cord had just about solidified after being in that position for a couple of years, and as soon as it was moved even slightly from its customary position the outer layer cracked and exposed some of the inner wires...



Yeah... I think old faithful is gonna retire now.
Ill keep it around for spare parts, luckily I had another one lying around so I could just grab that one..
Im glad I had a second, I mainly bought it so I could have a backup when I was modifying the bars around the intake portion of the skimmer, but I figured since this is a cheap and cheerful Aliexpress gadget and is fairly important for the tank, it wouldnt do any harm to have a backup.
Ill get a third one soon as a new backup, might wait and see if they go on sale at some point. Not that they are particularly expensive, but eh every penny counts.

Im happy to share that I did finally solve my shrimp-in-skimmer problem, although not the way I expected to 😄
Maybe a week or so ago, I was about 1/4 of the way in gluing mesh onto one of the skimmer heads "a la Wookii", when I suddenly wanted to give something else a try.
I had previously drilled a 7mm hole in the side of the skimmer body, but at the time I was running the skimmer 24/7 and my shrimp were too weak willed and pathetic to use the hole to escape. There is light suction going into the skimmer through the hole while it runs, enough to make it a bit difficult for shrimp to just walk out. Now that the skimmer only runs at night, I took a fine pore sponge, made a little idiot-funnel in the sponge to guide the shreemple towards the hole, and set it up to check if they would finally use it.
When I woke up in the morning a couple of shrimp were making their way out of the hole and shortly after the skimmer was shrimp-free. It even works on snails 😃
Hooray! 😍 The skimmer even still collects leaves and debris, and the little morons just hang out in there for a handful of hours over night snacking on the "forbidden treats" until the skimmer turns off and out they stroll.  Truly a solution worthy of the term "Have your cake and eat it too"
Ill get a photo of the solution tomorrow, ran out of time today 😁


----------



## Hufsa

Still working on todays PH profile so will post that one later when the photoperiod is over, I want to see how fast the PH rises after the gas turns off as well 
So far it looks pretty good, keep in mind that this is the first day with the bar running, so tweaks and adjustments will be made.
Got the main drop within about ~3 hours, I had set the water spray bar to have the holes a little more forward than upward to be nice to the CO2 spray bar, however the PH kept dropping steadily below 1.0 drop, so I angled the water up just slightly and that stopped it going down.
The stability is not entirely there "right out of the box", but I wasnt expecting it to be either.
In addition to this I have had lids on and off the tank all day, which should influence the PH profile according to Yugang (please correct me if I am misremembering).
Between the PH readings ive been working on some transparent "channel plastic" (?) lids. The lids that come with the tank are aluminium/composite, and obviously do not allow you to put the lights on top of that lid as the materials are opaque. Ive been annoyed by my poor light spread for a long time now, the way the tank is made has the lights resting almost directly above the waters surface, and this doesnt allow even two separate lights to actually illuminate all of the waters surface.
A few days ago when I was out and bought the PVC end caps for the CO2 spray bar, I also picked up another cup of invitro frogbit to torture to help me.
It was right around the time the snails were dying, and I figured they could help uptake any nasties if there was any. In addition to that, if I have to remove the shrimp to a separate tank for further treatment, the frogbit makes an ideal babysitter plant. They will not complain about going from high tech to low tech + high potential growth rate.
But of course the frogbit needs to have the entire waters surface illuminated to have a chance to do well, I am a floater serial killer so its the least I could do.




Better spread means the lights needed to go above the lid, so clear lid there was.
Right now they are resting on the rim, but I was thinking of "ordering" a few 3D printed _high heels_ for the lights, maybe 2 cm tall just to get their heat a bit further away from the plastic.
I look forward to having even less evaporation from the tank, this custom lid fits better than the original one, as that one did not have enough cut-outs for the plumbing.
To keep the middle of the sheets from sagging over time I got an aluminium T-profile from one of the local hardware stores. This helps the sheets a lot as they are supported on all four sides, as well as them being stronger in the direction the channels go.



I am concerned that water will make its way into the plastic channels and make an algae coating that will be impossible to remove.
To combat this I have taped shut the open ends as much as possible, but its not a 100% waterproof job as it was very difficult to do the corners without some sort of elastic clear tape.
I think it will at least slow it down a lot, and by the time it becomes a problem I will consider remaking the lid in plexiglass / polycarbonate something sheets.

I dont want to seal up the lid entirely, as oxygen still needs to make its way into the top of the tank, unless I want my only source of oxygen to be the plants. That seems like a bad idea, as they sleep at night. I suppose if I wanted a very tight fitting lid I would need to run an airline into the tank to forcibly exchange the air inside the lid, at least at night.
One thing I have been wondering about for a long time is if it is possible to decouple / separate the two factors evaporation/condensation and air exchange.
Like, is it possible to stop the humidity in the air from leaving the inside of the lid, without stopping air exchange?
Could you use some sort of filter that traps the water molecules and makes them condensate on that surface, but allows air to pass through?
Just my mind overthinking things as usual, but I am curious about that.

As promised picture of the shrimp proof skimmer modification:



Didnt say it had to be a good picture 😅 The sponge is basically flat on top except near the hole where it slopes down. The top of the hole is placed at the height of the top suction cups, this way the skimmer head can go all the way down (until it stops on the suction cups) without shutting the opening.

Obligatory FTS
The tank looks like crap, theres a sick amount of BBA and plant health is really bad even if its not visible from a distance.
Looking forward to getting back on track 😊 Onwards and upwards!


----------



## Hufsa

The PH profile 
At 08:40 I measured the tank water (so this value is just with whatever degassing naturally happens in the tank over night) to 7,52 degrees.
I was somewhat surprised as my water usually sits closer to 7,2 - 7,3.
However I am almost three weeks out from the last water change, and the tank has been topped up a bit with tapwater in the meantime, so I figured maybe the KH had crept up a bit because of that. The tank is getting a much needed water change this weekend, I just didnt feel like waiting until after the weekend to start up.
Besides, much smarter people than me say that a 1.0 drop is a 1.0 drop, so it shouldnt matter where you start from.
(But it shouldnt be water straight out of the tank for the baseline though, I pulled a sneaky one for temporary convenience)
Anyway, just to have something to go on I assumed 7,52 was about degassed, and left the task of checking a manually degassed sample for later.
I had to run an errand but turned the CO2 on remotely and started measuring as soon as I got home again.


Time​PH​Notes​10 00​N/A​CO2 turned on​10 44​6,90​​11 00​6,80​​11 30​6,66​​12 00​6,59​​12 30​6,52​​13 00​6,48​​13 30​6,44​​14 00​6,42​​14 30​6,40​​15 00​6,38​Keeps dropping by 0,02 every 30 min, adjusting water agitation up​15 30​6,39​Starts rising​16 00​6,40​​16 30​6,40​​17 00​6,41​​17 30​6,41​I think I put the finished lids on at this point​18 00​6,39​PH dropping again​18 30​6,38​​19 00​6,37​CO2 turned off​19 30​6,44​​20 00​6,53​​20 30​6,60​​21 00​6,68​​21 30​6,75​​

So, if we assume 7,52 was about right then I had the 1.0 drop 2 hours and 30 minutes in.
As you can see the PH kept dropping after that, until I adjusted the water spray bar a smidge.
At one point the lids were finished and placed on the tank (lids were on and off all day, but mostly off), and on the next PH measurement I noticed a distinct drop of 0,02.
I think the lids might have a fairly significant impact, so it will be very interesting to repeat the profile again tomorrow with the lids in place all day. It should at least be more consistent.
Also usually I turn the CO2 on much earlier in the morning, same with the lights, but since I wanted to test but couldnt start until after the errand, I postponed todays startup.
For tomorrow I will start the CO2 at 07:00 as usual, giving it 3 hours until the lights go on full at 10:00.
I probably will only measure hourly for the majority of the profile, it gives me a little bit more time to get other things done in between.

I went and got my designated shallow container with a lid to get the true degassed sample from the tank.
I even went outside to do it because the air inside here can get a bit poor sometimes, so I dont trust that.
So I put in just enough water to measure, shook the box as I went outside, took off the lid and wafted in new air, repeat x amount of times.
When I went back inside to check the PH I couldnt really believe it, it didnt stop until 7,97 😬 That just cant be right, my tank has not had a 1.59 point drop today, I dont believe thats likely.
I wonder if I used this container to dissolve out some medication or something 🤔

Im gonna go clean it now, redo the test and report back.
...
Hrm, still high, 7,90 now. Maybe the container is tainted.
Ill leave some tank water out in a different container over night, see where its at tomorrow morning and take it from there 😊


[Edit]: Forgot to add, lights were turned down previously because of poor CO2 and lots of BBA, but since I put the lights higher today and something between them that eats a bit of the light, I turned them up again today (yeehaw 🤠😎 ...pls dont hurt me Kirsty)
100% on the back light and 70% on the front now


----------



## Yugang

This is going to be @Hufsa tutorial on dialling in CO2  



Hufsa said:


> For tomorrow I will start the CO2 at 07:00 as usual, giving it 3 hours until the lights go on full at 10:00.


That's usually how I do it. For the optimisation, start really early in the morning and see where the pH profile ends up stable. Then next day, I may know that I can start injecting later and still have enough stability when lights go on. This is also how @Zeus. describes it in his tutorial.

I don't want to clutter your thread with my CO2 garbage, will send you some PM's with my experience


----------



## KirstyF

Hufsa said:


> yeehaw 🤠😎 ...pls dont hurt me Kirsty)



😂 never. 😊

Will be interested to see ur experience with the lids and evaporation.

My main tank is glass lidded (with multiple sliding sheets due to size) and I always keep a 3 inch open air gap on each side to allow for some air exchange so it’s never fully closed. I don’t believe that air exchange will be seriously compromised tbf, even with a good percentage of the tank covered.  I never have to do top ups however, or worry about evaporation. There are always drops on the underside of the glass so most of the water is clearly condensating and dripping back into the tank. I possibly have a little more temp differential using glass, which may encourage condensation, but you may find that it’s not so tough to get that balance just by allowing a way to crack the lid open a smidge in ur final design.


----------



## Yugang

KirstyF said:


> 😂 never. 😊
> 
> Will be interested to see ur experience with the lids and evaporation.
> 
> My main tank is glass lidded (with multiple sliding sheets due to size) and I always keep a 3 inch open air gap on each side to allow for some air exchange so it’s never fully closed. I don’t believe that air exchange will be seriously compromised tbf, even with a good percentage of the tank covered.  I never have to do top ups however, or worry about evaporation. There are always drops on the underside of the glass so most of the water is clearly condensating and dripping back into the tank. I possibly have a little more temp differential using glass, which may encourage condensation, but you may find that it’s not so tough to get that balance just by allowing a way to crack the lid open a smidge in ur final design.


Any idea how much your CO2 consumption is reduced by this @KirstyF ?


----------



## Hufsa

Hmm..
Tank water sample left in liter mug in the kitchen over night measured 7,75
Tank water sample left in suspect container also kitchen over night 7,79
Tap water sample taken today and degassed manually in new container 7,46
Tank water sample taken today and degassed manually in new container 7,74
Im not sure the 0,0x variances are significant enough that it warrants me fussing over it.

So I really do seem to be looking at a 7,7x baseline 🤔
I guess this drives home the point that its really important to take a new baseline for *every* CO2 profile.
Because the last baseline measured 7,2 but this new one is 7,7. If I were to use the old baseline I would be doing a 1,5 drop instead of 1,0, which is a sizable amount of CO2.
Granted, these are the first profiles taken with the new PH pen, the disparity could be contributed to in differences between the PH pens.
Old one is a Hanna pen with 0,2 accuracy and 0,1 resolution, new one is an Adwa pen with 0,01 accuracy and 0,01 resolution.
To get a 1.0 drop we should then be looking to maintain 6,7x during the entire photoperiod (+- a little wiggle room at the end of the photoperiod where its supposedly less important to the plants)
I think I read that maintaining the drop within a 0,1 range is the goal. So then between 6,70 - 6,79 would be ok?
My tendency is of course to obsess over the last 0,0x digit, I would ideally like to see 6,75, 6,75, 6,75 or something like that all along.
Welcome input on this as I have a tendency to perfectionism that isnt always needed/helpful 😁

Results of the profile so far today:

Time​PH​Notes​07 00​N/A​CO2 on​09 00​6,63​​09 30​6,58​Lights start ramp up​10 00​6,56​Lights on full​11 00​6,49​Continues dropping after lights on despite 3 hour CO2 ramp​12 00​6,49​Was looking good​13 00​6,42​?​


Im really dying to get my hands in the tank and trim some plant groups that need it, remove some old leaves and algae etc.
But im not sure if I still want to make a point of keeping the lids on all day or not. This is so it doesnt influence the stability, but if the drop is not maintaining at a stable level today anyway, then is there any harm in getting some maintenance in while I have the energy..? 🤔

Im really torn on what total drop to go for, 1,0 is the standard but apparently yesterday I might have been close to 1,4 or 1,6 without intending to, and I didnt notice *anything*.
Its not about survival of the fish though, its about comfort. So I dont want to be right below maximum tolerance, it has to be further away than that.
But 1,0 or 1,2 drop?
No matter which one I go for the CO2 spray bar overflow needs a bit of adjustment, since its sitting at 6,4 so far but should be 6,7 or 6,5 respectively.
If it drops below 6,4 I will definitely intervene and adjust the CO2 overflow.
And then if stability during this profile is going out the window anyway with overflow adjustment, maybe I can justify doing some trimming also..


----------



## KirstyF

Yugang said:


> Any idea how much your CO2 consumption is reduced by this @KirstyF ?



I’ve never had it without lids and have always had the ‘Air gaps’ in place so no point of comparison I’m afraid. 🙁


----------



## Courtneybst

If that's your version of crap then I'm doing something wrong! Looks great!


----------



## Yugang

Hufsa said:


> I might have been close to 1,4 or 1,6


I am not surprised, with my tank of comparable size (20% smaller) I got also a 1.6 drop with same CO2 Spray Bar dimensions as yours. I guess it now makes sense to first get your surface agitation where you want it to be, and then tune down your CO2 Spray Bar with an adjusted overflow. I have a couple of end pieces with holes drilled at different positions to adjust the capacity of my spray bar.


----------



## Hufsa

Hufsa said:


> Im really dying to get my hands in the tank and trim some plant groups that need it, remove some old leaves and algae etc.
> 
> If it drops below 6,4 I will definitely intervene and adjust the CO2 overflow.
> And then if stability during this profile is going out the window anyway with overflow adjustment, maybe I can justify doing some trimming also..



And of course shortly after posting it dropped below 6,4 and I adjusted the CO2 overflow a bit.
"Oh no!" I said insincerely. "I guess I have no other choice than to take off the lids and trim the plants then since stability is out" 😁
It might have been bad but it felt very good 😇🌿
Got a bunch of decaying Marilia leaves out of the tank, thinned out some various groups, pulled out thread algae, fluffed some moss, disturbed a couple of shrimp, the usual 😊
I had to turn off the filters a short time to trim the two species of Hydrocotyle, both of them needed leveled with the substrate and this creates a ton of tiny bits floating around.
It was best to have the water still and letting them float up to be removed, even if it could affect the profile.


TimePHNotes14 00​6,39​Adjusting overflow, lids off and hands in the tank15 00​6,44​16 00​6,51​17 00​6,51​Surprised by a little bit of stability18 00​6,48​19 00​6,46​CO2 off
It still ended the day with a greater drop than wanted, so I will adjust the overflow just a little bit more tonight.
I might be able to keep my hands out of the tank tomorrow now that the most dire trimming needs are covered.
Tomorrow is scheduled for a water change, but I can do that after the photoperiod 

Just to make the chaos complete I have turned down the injection rate a couple of times today, as the overflow was burping every 25 seconds which I think might be too much.
Its not harmful its just a waste of gas, and the sound is kinda annoying tbh. I hope I can find a way to muffle it a bit long term, my SO is not super happy about the burping noise it makes when the bubbles are released.
Oh yeah and theres a high pitched whining sound coming from the CO2 system when the injection is on, I think I might have a small leak somewhere after the solenoid.
Y'know, just to make sure everything is happening at the exact same time 
So will go over with a bit of soapy water tomorrow. Now that the CO2 is off there is no sound so eh.

Assorted collection of pictures:




After my sand snails died I suddenly figured out why everyone wants to know how I keep my sand so pristine, and how people manage to get algae on their sand. 
I was never able to do that.
Apparently the secret is the snails. Now they are gone my sand is rapidly getting a green patina. So thats the answer for those who inquire, get some sand snails for sure 
I will try to find more of the special kind once the shrimp debacle is over.




For anyone (including myself) who were wondering how green should Tonina really be, or rather, is there more green to be had than 75%?
I present to you the highly exclusive limited edition Pogostemon helferi "Snow White". Its a real bargain at just 500 dollars a piece!
It can only grow with the specialized HufsaTM Micro nutrient mixture we also sell, otherwise it may convert to regular helferi. Preorder your bundle now!




Some unhappy Rotala OJ. This is very classic CO2 symptoms to me, a bunch of twisted and unhappy looking shoots and one random shoot that is doing really well for some reason.
In this case probably because its at the front of the group.




Rotala Blood Red SG hanging in there despite my apparent best efforts at mismanaging my tank 
Glad its sticking with me. Here you can also see what I would call CO2 symptoms, some twisted or stunted shoots (hence the branching) and a couple that are doing remarkably fine (for now).
You dont tend to get this variation in growth from mineral nutrient deficiencies from what I can tell, all the plants will tend to be pretty equally pale or whatever.
I might be wrong though, have happened before, will probably happen again 😊


----------



## Courtneybst

Hufsa said:


> Rotala Blood Red SG hanging in there despite my apparent best efforts at mismanaging my tank


😍


----------



## Hufsa

Just noticed we've hit page 50 of this journal! 
Its been very nice to share all the ups and downs with everyone 🥰
Here's to another 50 pages of consistency deficiency and other interesting shenanigans 🍻


----------



## Hufsa

Results of todays profile, sorry about the spam everyone 😅
Im just determined to get this CO2 properly sorted so I can go back to my regular problems and finding new and creative ways of messing with my tank 😁
Didnt catch the start of the photoperiod but it is what it is. Been burning the candle a little bit in both ends with all this CO2 spray bar sawing, filing, painting, and lid cutting, plus running to and fro all the time to do PH measurements. Probably not going to do a proper profile tomorrow, but I will do a couple of measurements in the afternoon just to know roughly where the tank is at.
I am still kinda puzzled about the "high" baseline.
I thought there would be a lot more "ado" once you get into the higher drops beyond 1.0.
Surely at least some sort of fireworks or at least a loud siren or a *bang* as the tank gets closer to 1,4 drop.
The tank was dropping lower than intended today too, but it was business as usual in the tank with both fish and shrimp 


Time​PH​12 00​6,46​13 00​6,42​14 00​6,42​15 00​6,41​16 00​6,40​17 00​6,38​18 00​6,38​19 00​6,38​

As you can see its still not very stable until maybe 13:00, which is three hours after the lights are ramped up to final intensity. Thats probably not good.
It also ends the day below 6,4 which makes *me* uncomfortable, even if the fish are rude and wont say anything to me about it 😠

Today I have been wondering more about what I mentioned last time;
If 6,50 to 6,59 is an acceptable range because it is within that 0,1 variance we have decided as a community is "right",
wouldnt 6,44 to 6,55 be virtually the same? Im not talking about total level of CO2 now, but the variation range.
Thats the same size of range, the center point is just placed differently and therefore it changes the 0,x that we are usually aiming for.. 🤔
Unless my logic is way off I think that is equally stable then?
So if after a lot of twiddling with the injection I end up within that kind of range, I could probably call it job sorted?

I forgot to take a new baseline today, which now that I look at the numbers I wish I had done 
Because yesterday I turned down the injection rate, but I also adjusted the CO2 spray bar to hold less CO2, but it doesnt appear to have had any effect on that. I would have expected the total drop to have been lower today. And unfortunately I cannot take a baseline now, because ive changed out 75% of the water with a water change  So its no longer the same water 
Maybe I just goofed and didnt adjust the CO2 overflow as much as I thought I had.
Any way, on monday I can do another full profile and new baseline with the new water, and see what we are working with then.
Today after the photoperiod I adjusted the CO2 overflow even more (decrease CO2 spray bar surface size further), and angled the water spray bar up eeeever so slightly more to try to get some more stability going. (Edit): Also set CO2 to start at 06:00 instead of 07, giving it one more hour to ramp.

I did water testing as well of the water before and after the water change. I think I might have contracted some sort of brain damage from doing frequent water changes these past few years, because 3 weeks since last water change feels like an *actual* eternity to me. I dont know if I can settle for monthly water changes, it gives me the heebie jeebies for some reason. I think it might have to do with the pink water. I hate that so much. It feels *wrong* every time I look at the tank, like im making my fish swim around in some sort of terrible waste water.
Now that the water is nice and not pink again I just cant stand the idea of continuing to use this micro mix and endure another three weeks or so of pink water.
So I turned the micro dosing off, will give the tank a slosh of iron gluconate tomorrow and then make a new micro mix "a la Kirsty" ASAP.
Right, the water testing.
Tank before WC:
TDS 214
NO3 20-25
Fe ~0,4
PO4 0,4.
The phosphate one was done with a diluted test sample and then multiplied for better accuracy. Next time im going to do that with NO3 and Fe as well.
Cant do much overthinking with these numbers at the moment anyway because the plants are struggling with CO2, so uptake of other nutrients could be less than usual.
The KH was a surprising 2,5 degrees. I even tested it twice. Its supposed to be 3. I tested it because I thought it would be higher than 3, which would help me make sense of the higher than usual PH baseline. But nope 
Best guess is the death of all the sand snails kicked the biological cycle of the tank into higher activity, and they used some of the KH to process the sudden influx of ammonia from dead snails.
Just a wild guess and doesnt help with my PH confusion though 

For fun I tested the water change barrel too, TDS 116. This includes Seachem Safe and the calcium and magnesium I add. PH was sitting at 7,63.
Tank after 75% water change including front loaded macros, TDS 182.
The tank sits in a higher TDS(conductivity) range after I increased the potassium (K). I guess K might be more conductive than some of the other macros?

Tank before and after de-pinkifying (+trims)





So much better. It shows up in photos but the pinkness was even worse in reality 😨


----------



## nanootje

Hufsa said:


> Just noticed we've hit page 50 of this journal!
> Its been very nice to share all the ups and downs with everyone 🥰
> Here's to another 50 pages of consistency deficiency and other interesting shenanigans 🍻


What a hell of a journal.....50 pages😃👍 nice job....i didn't read all of it...but i know your not a quiet woman😂
And a little question for you....can you sit still and say nothing?😂 I guess not.

But about the tank now.... amazing to see you have unique plants in there. Nice to see you're growing rare species.👍

There is only one thing i didn't get ......why all the testing and figures? (Ok, two things🙈😁)  My experience was to do less instead of controlling everything....to lett the tank settle and let it get stable.

Up to the next 50.


----------



## Hufsa

nanootje said:


> What a hell of a journal.....50 pages😃👍


I have no idea how it happened, january this year the journal was still at page 16, and then suddenly its page 50  Maybe CO2 injection makes journals grow 10 times faster too?


nanootje said:


> but i know your not a quiet woman😂


Uh ok I guess? 😂


nanootje said:


> And a little question for you....can you sit still and say nothing?😂 I guess not.


🤐



nanootje said:


> But about the tank now.... amazing to see you have unique plants in there. Nice to see you're growing rare species.👍


Yess, I love the preciouses. Not specifically because they are rare, I dont really care so much about that, my favorite plant is very common for example. 
But a lot of the plants I have now have very unique characteristics and forms/looks that I like 🥰


nanootje said:


> There is only one thing i didn't get ......why all the testing and figures? (Ok, two things🙈😁)  My experience was to do less instead of controlling everything....to lett the tank settle and let it get stable.


Theres a bit of testing the nutrients after I got roped into a cult wanted to more seriously try out lean dosing. Still getting things tuned in for my tank and maintenance regime.
But lately there is a lot of testing of PH, because im trying out the CO2 spray bar concept by @Yugang 
Theres always some extra tuning that needs to be done when you implement a new CO2 method.


----------



## nanootje

Hufsa said:


> I have no idea how it happened, january this year the journal was still at page 16, and then suddenly its page 50  Maybe CO2 injection makes journals grow 10 times faster too?


Or you're high from all these gasses😂


Hufsa said:


> Theres a bit of testing the nutrients after I got roped into a cult wanted to more seriously try out lean dosing. Still getting things tuned in for my tank and maintenance regime.
> But lately there is a lot of testing of PH, because im trying out the CO2 spray bar concept by @Yugang
> Theres always some extra tuning that needs to be done when you implement a new CO2 method.


Yess, I understand, but there are so many variables.....but science and research could be fun too. Experimenting, trail and error..... thanks for sharing this into your journal.
I read the spray bar of Yugang ....interesting.
Not for my opentank style.
Its an old school of method.


----------



## JoshP12

nanootje said:


> Or you're high from all these gasses😂


Maybe I don’t understand UK humour, but I think that’s rather rude.


----------



## nanootje

JoshP12 said:


> Maybe I don’t understand UK humour, but I think that’s rather rude.


😂 Sorry, don't meant to be rude.
But I am not from the UK and neither is Hufsa🙈


----------



## Hufsa

nanootje said:


> Or you're high from all these gasses😂


I dont think im the one thats high here 



JoshP12 said:


> Maybe I don’t understand UK humour, but I think that’s rather rude.





nanootje said:


> neither is Hufsa🙈


UK humor is actually quite close to norwegian, thats why we tend to get along well


----------



## nanootje

Hufsa said:


> I dont think im the one thats high here


😂 maybe you're right.....i am lurking on the new CO2 set now..... testing the equipment.



Hufsa said:


> UK humor is actually quite close to norwegian, thats why we tend to get along well


😂 Nice ...i have a rare species of humor....ask my colleagues


----------



## KirstyF

Good luck with Gluconate @Hufsa. Interested to see how that pans out for ya. 🤞

Regarding the Co2.

If you ignore those pesky old 2nd digits there and rounded up or down, you would have:

6.5
6.4
6.4
6.4
6.4
6.4
6.4
6.4

Starting to look better already right 😉

Obviously you’ve got a couple of readings missing maybe, but ur total range on this last run is 0.08 so maybe not totally perfect……and I know you love perfect 😊…..but it’s inside the 0.1 range, so ur not far off I would think. 👍

Regarding it currently dropping under 6.4, I agree it is just as much about your comfort level as the fishes. 

For me, it’s way too stressful to run a tank too close to fish tolerance levels, as they might be just fine about it, but I’d spend way too much time fretting. 

I ran my ph drop at 0.9 for a good while and I’ve had it up to 1.1, but that’s about my ‘deal breaker’ level for keeping a happy Kirsty. 

So maximum drop should be anywhere between 1ph and ‘Hufsa sleeping well at night ph’ and thats what really matters. 😊


----------



## Wookii

KirstyF said:


> If you ignore those pesky old 2nd digits there and rounded up or down, you would have:
> 
> 6.5
> 6.4
> 6.4
> 6.4
> 6.4
> 6.4
> 6.4
> 6.4
> 
> Starting to look better already right 😉



I'm glad you pointed that out Kirsty, and it saved me doing it, so you are now the human shield for any @Hufsa OCD rage! 😂

Joking aside @Hufsa your pH probe likely isn't accurate enough to be able to determine much beyond the first decimal place (despite what its specs might suggest). So I'd just round to one decimal place and call it a day, thats more than enough to call stable! * _Ducks back behind Kirsty_ *


----------



## Hufsa

Wookii said:


> I'm glad you pointed that out Kirsty, and it saved me doing it, so you are now the human shield for any @Hufsa OCD rage! 😂
> 
> call it a day, thats more than enough to call stable! * _Ducks back behind Kirsty_ *


The OCD beast👹 really just wants to let go deep down, so its very happy about these messages 😊😁

Been monitoring the PH today and while the total drop is lower than I thought it should be, the stability seems to have arrived (together with slightly lowered standards). 

The drop checker is the same lime green as it has been for months and months, so its possible ive been running somewhere around this drop for a long time without any problems 🤷

Im gonna call it a day and be satisfied with the results, the blurping sound from the bar is also not as often now.

Time to sit down and stare at the plants until they unstunt


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> or anyone (including myself) who were wondering how green should Tonina really be, or rather, is there more green to be had than 75%?
> I present to you the highly exclusive limited edition Pogostemon helferi "Snow White". Its a real bargain at just 500 dollars a piece!


@Zeus. got <"there first">. I actually think yours might be the, even more select, cultivar <"Ivory Allure"> and that $500 is an <"absolute bargain">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## KirstyF

Wookii said:


> I'm glad you pointed that out Kirsty, and it saved me doing it, so you are now the human shield for any @Hufsa OCD rage! 😂
> 
> Joking aside @Hufsa your pH probe likely isn't accurate enough to be able to determine much beyond the first decimal place (despite what its specs might suggest). So I'd just round to one decimal place and call it a day, thats more than enough to call stable! * _Ducks back behind Kirsty_ *



She’s just a pussy cat really. 😊

So long as you don’t mention pink water…….
Or the colour blurple…….
Or tell her that you don’t like moss…..

In which case…..do not disclose your address! 😂


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## Hufsa

Started working on the new micro mix n stuff yesterday and got it all finished up this afternoon 
Im aware I said like two days ago I shouldnt spend my energy on micros at the moment, but to my credit I did get the CO2 spray bar installed first at least 😅
I just overestimated my patience (as usual) and how long I could continue to live with the pink water look.

My autodoser has 4 channels and I have only been using 2, one for macro and one for micro.
I have set up lines on the 2 remaining pumps, so now I can adjust Fe and Mn separately from the rest of the traces for a while, until I figure out what my tank likes.
This took a bit of work, but will save work in the long run when I can adjust it without making new micros from scratch.
I only made enough for 30 days this time around, usually I make for ~60 days but I wanted to cut down on wasted ferts.
The channels now go Macro, Micro(Zn,B,Cu,Mo,Ni), Fe, and Mn.
The total levels are the same for now, but the 0,3 ppm iron that has previously been 0,275 DTPA and 0,025 EDDHA is now 0,15 DTPA and 0,15 Gluconate.

Totals per week for future reference:
0,3 Fe (Total)
0,15 Fe DTPA
0,15 Fe Gluconate (Seachem Iron)
---
0,05 Mn EDTA
---
0,02 Zn EDTA
0,02 B
0,006 Cu EDTA
0,009 Mo
0,0001 Ni



PH stuff:

Time​PH​Notes​06 00​​CO2 on (4 hour ramp)​09 00​6,44​​09 30​6,40​Might be able to shave 30min off CO2 ramp​10 00​6,39​Lights on full​10 30​6,39​​11 00​6,38​​11 30​6,37​​12 00​6,37​​12 30​6,37​​13 00​6,37​​14 00​6,37​​15 00​6,37​​16 00​6,39​Lid had been off for pictures​17 00​6,39​Residual effect of lid removal?​18 00​6,37​​19 00​6,35​CO2 off​​​​Offgassed PH​7,71​​Total drop​1,34​​

Happy with this profile 





The tank is a bit cloudy today because last night I dosed the second treatment of Genchem "No Planaria". 
I havent seen any parasites since the first treatment two weeks ago which is technically a positive sign, im just too jaded to get optimistic about the situation at this point. 
I hope they are all finally dead though, and I wont have killed all my beautiful Thiara sand snails for nothing 💔
My plan is to do a third treatment even though two treatments are said to be enough to kill Scutariella. 
I want to do this very thoroughly because I do genuinely think I will end up culling the entire shrimp population if the parasite shows up another time. And then run the tank for several months with absolutely no shrimp in it.
I dont think I posted a follow up on @Wookii 's query on how the Caridina shrimp are doing, shortly after we discussed it last I concluded that there was only two of them left, one male and one female carrying eggs.
The female has released her eggs one more time now I think, but it seems like the shrimplets do not survive. This morning I found the male dead ☹️
I think the medication just pushed him over the edge poor fellow. If it wasnt all my other messing around that did it, I think a KH of ~3 and GH of ~7 is just too much outside their preferred parameters. 
Fancy Caridina are not exactly the most robust creatures. If I do end up with lower KH in my tank at some point I will give Caridina another try then.

Plant health pictures since I have changed micro a bit, need reference pictures of course:



If possible I would like to see the newest leaves be roughly the same color as the older leaves.




Bacopa c. Colorata finally got a speck of algae on it  Im wondering if it might be a bit paler than it needs to be, it doesnt complain sure but I wouldnt be surprised if if the color got a little bit more saturated eventually.
How green vs pink it is seems to be mainly or only determined by light. If it ends up not turning quite as pink as I would like under the Fluval 3.0 lights running 100% then I will likely remove it from the tank for a period of time.
I have it growing emersed in the kitchen as well, so I could put it back in the tank when I eventually upgrade the lights and maybe get more space.




Marilia doing fine as usual, it sheds some old leaves still but we will see if I ever work out what causes this. CO2 problems are probably not helping the matter.
This plant actually shows hooking of the ends of the leaf. Its just not something thats easy to notice because the leaves are so round. I should pay attention and see if it ever stops doing that.




Assortment of test subjects. Pantanal offshoot alive but angry, business as usual in other words. Rotala OJ stunted in all but one dominant shoot. Rotala mac Mini 4 pale and crying about instability. Ludwigia polycarpa thought about stunting last week but then decided to keep going because its not that kind of plant. To the right, Myriophyllum sp. Guyana is blissfully unaware there ever was a problem with anything.




Glandulosa properly angry. If the tip doesnt resume on its own soon I will have to pinch off the top and try to force a sideshoot, because I cant see the plant making any sideshoots on its own so far. Hope it doesnt die, dont have a backup of this one.




Tonina for reference, as expected.




Pogostemon helferi "Snow White" "Ivory Allure"  This plant is definitely taking the chlorosis hardest, and it has barely grown lately.
Hoping to see improvement in this one soon. There is a little speck of green in the center, I could have sworn that wasnt there two days ago.
Yesterday the tank ran on just freshly changed water and a slosh of Seachem Iron (Fe Gluconate).




Rotala Blood Red SG, I pinched off the shoots that were doing the best and replanted them, hoping to squeeze out a few more viable stems from the crumply bits left behind.
Could look a lot better than this of course. In the center some outrageously expensive BG 2011/12 covered in BBA. What is that saying again, "Pearls before swine" ?


Oh and I figured out what is causing the high pitched sound. It wasnt the CO2 system, its the transformer / electrical doodad blob for one of the lights 😬
Not super thrilled about that, I would prefer not burning to death in my sleep or something like that.
Have contacted Fluval and hope to hear from them soon ☠️


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## KirstyF

Woohoo! Looks like you got that stability nailed. 👍

And….looking forward to the new, even rarer ‘zebra helferi’ in green, white, green! 🤞😊

Now you just need a large bottle of wine to keep you company whilst you stare at everything intently, waiting for it to just…..get on and ‘fix’!🍷😂


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## Hufsa

KirstyF said:


> Woohoo! Looks like you got that stability nailed. 👍


Im very pleased 🥰



KirstyF said:


> Now you just need a large bottle of wine to keep you company whilst you stare at everything intently, waiting for it to just…..get on and ‘fix’!🍷😂


Ill probably go for some soda, but the staring has already commenced  Cant wait for those plants to growww!
Also feels very good to have CO2 sorted again, thats a huge "check" on the list


I was thinking about what I could do to distract myself from shenanigans while I leave the plants to uncurl and do some growing for a few weeks. 
I think this would be a good time to start testing on lowering KH (away from the tank obviously!). 
I have both of the acids mentioned in the thread but havent found a good time yet to start.
15 liter bucket filled with exactly 10 liters, carefully open the bottles outside with the gear on and take it slowly from there.
The water will need to offgas after additions to reveal the correct new PH. I have also stocked up on more KH test.
Then when I know how much acid needs to be added I can try to work out the ppm nutrient additions with the help of some math supported by tests for NO3 and PO4. 
Will update that thread when I have anything to share of course, even if it turns out it wasnt feasible/practical.


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## Yugang

Yugang said:


> I think you can go for a dual stage reactor, triple venturi, semi acoustic vortex absorption, filled with bioballs and DC pump.





Hufsa said:


> Im assuming ill also need a flux capacitor and a plasma field generator


Thank you for your courage @Hufsa, the first to give it a try 😍🥰


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## erwin123

The  Helferi deficiency symptoms are so obvious, I'm glad that helped you figure out what to do. Seachem Iron should definitely help, but long term, its not going to be cheap - If what I read on the internet is correct, the bio-availability of Gluconate is not very long so you have to be constantly adding Seachem Iron throughout the course of the week instead of a single weekly doese? 

Flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts. hope you have a good electrician to wire up your house for that!


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## Hufsa

erwin123 said:


> Seachem Iron should definitely help, but long term, its not going to be cheap - If what I read on the internet is correct, the bio-availability of Gluconate is not very long so you have to be constantly adding Seachem Iron throughout the course of the week instead of a single weekly doese?


For sure an expensive way to add Fe Gluconate, it was the only source of it I could find at that moment. I have a lead on buying a bag of the dry powder now so will be doing that when this bottle starts to run out 😊
Luckily for me I have the autodoser, so its dosing my ferts daily anyway. So adding Gluconate to the lineup isnt really a problem 



erwin123 said:


> Flux capacitor requires 1.21 gigawatts. hope you have a good electrician to wire up your house for that!


😁


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Pogostemon helferi "Snow White" "Ivory Allure"  This plant is definitely taking the chlorosis hardest, and it has barely grown lately.
> Hoping to see improvement in this one soon. There is a little speck of green in the center, I could have sworn that wasnt there two days ago.


That is one thing with iron (Fe) deficiency, it really does turn on and off in an instant.  It will be interesting to see if the new growth stays green.


KirstyF said:


> And….looking forward to the new, even rarer ‘zebra helferi’ in green, white, green!


Great idea, because the plant has no ability to move iron to newer tissue you could potentially manufacture green and white stripes as you turned iron ion (Fe++(+)) availability <"on and off">.  Only you (and @KirstyF and @erwin123 and @Yugang and me and the other person who reads this post) will know how it is done.

This could give you a new <"green and white stripy cultivar"> to go with "Ivory Allure". I'm going to call it _Pogostemon helferi_ <"Hoops">, even though I'm not sure @GHNelson  will be a buyer.

cheers Darrel


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## Hufsa

Today my tank decided its gonna have an even bigger drop. For no discernible reason that I can tell.
Its currently chilling at 6,29, been for a few hours. New baseline taken, 7,72.

So a 1,43 PH drop.




...Ok ill cool it with the gifs

Curve looks as stable as yesterday, just riding lower overall. Fish seem fine.
Drop checker is still lime green, I want to call it nosebleed lime green because we're definitely on the lime-y-er side of the spectrum.



Maybe ill call it snot green.
Also yes that is slimy green thread algae growing directly on my drop checker. Dont judge me 

Dont think I should do anything at the moment 🤷‍♀️
Gonna see what PH it decides to be tomorrow 🙃


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## Libba

Hufsa said:


> View attachment 197163
> 
> Today my tank decided its gonna have an even bigger drop. For no discernible reason that I can tell.
> Its currently chilling at 6,29, been for a few hours. New baseline taken, 7,72.
> 
> So a 1,43 PH drop.
> 
> View attachment 197164
> ...Ok ill cool it with the gifs
> 
> Curve looks as stable as yesterday, just riding lower overall. Fish seem fine.
> Drop checker is still lime green, I want to call it nosebleed lime green because we're definitely on the lime-y-er side of the spectrum.
> View attachment 197165
> Maybe ill call it snot green.
> Also yes that is slimy green thread algae growing directly on my drop checker. Dont judge me
> 
> Dont think I should do anything at the moment 🤷‍♀️
> Gonna see what PH it decides to be tomorrow 🙃



What could cause the change?

Assuming that the CO2 spray bar is constant, I can only think of:

1. Variation in surface agitation. Could be caused by filter performance, changes in water level etc.

2. Temperature changes.

Anything else?


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## KirstyF

It’s the Trolls!…..

You know she harvests very special troll moss from their nostrils when they are sleeping!? 

They are sneaking in once they wake up….. n doing weird stuff! 👍

Oh you meant a sensible answer…my bad 😬

Is it possible that you have had a lack of overnight offgassing @Hufsa (tight lid effect) or less disturbance and therefore started from a lower base point this morning?


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## Hufsa

Libba said:


> 1. Variation in surface agitation. Could be caused by filter performance, changes in water level etc.
> 2. Temperature changes.


Good thoughts, I checked the temperature just now and it seems to be the same as it was yesterday. Since there is more CO2 in cooler water I would have expected it to be lower temperature but no not as far as I can tell. Usually my fluctuations in surface agitation are from evaporation, in that case the surface agitation would increase slightly leading to a bit less CO2, not more 🤔
I dont reckon the filter has changed throughput that much over night to affect flow the other way, but I wouldnt be able to say certainly.


KirstyF said:


> They are sneaking in once they wake up….. n doing weird stuff! 👍


 First the vaseline on my camera lens and now this! Maybe I overharvested troll moss last time.. 


KirstyF said:


> Is it possible that you have had a lack of overnight offgassing @Hufsa (tight lid effect) or less disturbance and therefore started from a lower base point this morning?


Maybe, im not sure if lack of disturbance is big enough to cause changes over several days. One thing I can think of is that yesterday the window in the room was open all day, so the room air would probably have had less CO2 in it. Today its been colder outside so window closed for most of the day. The quality of the air was noticeably worse I felt. I did see a tiny change in CO2 reading when I opened the window, but I had decided that I was probably just imagining the correlation.

I will be very interested to see where the drop settles tomorrow.
Since the CO2 spray bar is somewhat unique in that the injection rate doesnt really determine the final drop, I may have to further adjust the amount of CO2 it holds. Im just not going to be able to swing a 1,4 drop mentally, even if the fish seem ok. Too uncomfortable for me, 1,3 seems to be my limit 😅


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## Hufsa

Small update (Hufsa-small? Everything is relative I suppose)
PH has been stable, I had to adjust the CO2 spray bar to contain even less CO2 after my last post. This moderated the drop somewhat but I would still like to have a smaller drop ideally. For now I have decided to just let it be.
I have checked the PH a couple of times per day since then, and its been steady all week. The new lids are very good for limiting evaporation as well.



I think it was @Hanuman that pioneered the "poor mans PH monitor" 😄 I keep it clamped to the tank and when I want to check the PH I turn it on and the reading stabilizes almost immediately because the probe has been in the tank water all along. Im not sure if its hard on the probe or not to be sitting in tank water a little longer time, maybe someone can tell me? I should probably take it off the tank soon and put it in the correct storage solution. The manual says to never store it in distilled water, but im not sure if tank water is too close to that. I use the special (KCl?) storage solution whenever its not on the tank, its just been very useful to have readings easily available this week.









Tank has a huge flush of slimy green thread algae right now, quite interesting 
I am not convinced at this point in time that all algae blooms are necessarily a bad sign.
Especially when it comes to green algae. I think it enters into the "Plants we dont want" territory as Darrel would say.
In this case I think there is an argument to be made that the tank conditions have been altered to where growth is now easier for green algae as well as plants.
Im not too fussed, id rather have green algae than something like staghorn or BBA, and im just letting the tank settle and find its footing again.
Changes to CO2 injection is a huge one for the tank and I did mess around with the lighting a bit as well. Just to finish it off also made that iron change.

I think its a little bit like driving on ice, maybe this analogy will not be relatable for the majority of my readers. But if you hit a patch of mirror ice with your car, the worst thing you can do is to start pulling the steering wheel every which way, this guarantees you lose the little grip your tires had on the ice. Its a bit like that with aquaplaning too, dont do too much maneuvering, just chill and wait until you get to the other side of the patch before you start trying to steer again. You should also ease off the gas pedal a bit, but im not going to do that for the tank because I like to yeehaw 








The Pogostemon helferi is doing a little bit of greening, it has even filled out some green in some existing leaves. Its a little bit difficult to see in the pictures though. I know we say iron is immobile and will only show up in new leaves, but I think the plant does not see new and old quite so binary and there might be a gradient between what is considered new and old leaves.




My frogbit has survived the week, they had a couple of stems of Ludwigia Cuba to offer them support against the flow, and it this has made a big difference.
Their roots are quite long, that is interesting. Im not dosing "full traditional EI" but I wouldnt consider the tank to be running particularly lean right now, it should be somewhere in the mid range as far as dosing goes.



The cup of Frogbit that I purchased was quite old so the plants were not in the best starting health.
Because of this they have taken a little longer to get going. The color of new leaves are acceptable but not great I would say.
Hope to see further improvement in the frogbit as well as the other plants.
I still cant help but wonder if something is interfering with or blocking the uptake of iron.

Right now all the tank needs is time so thats what its going to get 😊


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## FISHnLAB

JoshP12 said:


> Maybe I don’t understand UK humour, but I think that’s rather rude.


I'm from Canada too and I found it funny🤔... 🙂


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## Hufsa

Its about a week later and the slimy thread algae storm is raging on undeterred 




Excuse the dead Marilia leaves, ive been too lazy to pick them out this week.

I pulled out a fair amount of the slimy stuff mid week because it was covering the plants so thickly I wasnt sure if they were getting enough circulation and light etc.
This slimy species of algae is almost impossible to remove well, because the strands break off into pieces instead of pulling off the plant cleanly like my faithful other kind of green thread algae does.
Ive been thinking about what to do since it doesnt seem too keen to pass on its own, at least not in the modest time it has been given.
Im not keen to adjust fertilizer to try to combat algae, so far this seems to me to be the wrong end to start untangling the knot in, at least in this case.
I have however also made recent changes to the light, yeehaw changes. 
Yeehaw is fine and all, but if you want to yeehaw you must also be prepared for the wild beast youre trying to stay on top of to kick its back feet in the air and toss you face first out of the saddle.
So thats where I am now, in the dust with a bit of sand in my mouth 😁
I have noticed that the slimy green thread algae is most intense in the parts of the tanks that gets the strongest intensity of light. The less strongly lit corner covered by frogbit has only traces.
Not surprising really. But thats where im going to start to try to get back in the proverbial saddle.
Ive lowered the light intensity just now, from 100% on the back light and 70 on the front, to 75% and 50%. And we'll see what happens.
Im very stubbornly keeping the photoperiod at 10 hours for now, I really want this length of photoperiod to work for my tank. Even back in low tech I saw a pretty substantial increase in thread algae (old kind) when I tried 10 hours previously. But Wookii does 10 hours and I want to be Wookii when I grow up. So I will try it a little more. The intensity may need to come down even more to compensate for the length.
One thing I have also become quite acquainted with is another pro of having a low tech tank. Sure, plants may grow like 10 times faster with CO2, but algae definitely does too! Maybe even 20 times faster. This is not just a joke, the intensity and speed of algae growth is significant and unforgiving in a high tech tank. People should definitely consider this if they are thinking about going high tech.
If algae bothers you then you could get some really nasty surprises if you dont have everything under control with high tech.




On chlorosis, its not living up to my expectations of improvement so far. Its possible the plants need more time, but the initial impression I get (at least from the helferi) is that its still not quite right. I would expect to see more solidly green growth in the center of the plant one week in. I will give it more time but im not sure if I think it has worked.


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## Hufsa

Well I guess you could say the tank has been given time.
Dont have a ton of pictures to share from the bad and the ugly unfortunately, sometimes it comes down to a choice between "just doing the maintenance" or trying to document doing the maintenance and then not having the energy for the maintenance itself. 
In those cases I always choose just getting it done even if it would have been nice to update the journal too. I do love showing off the less glamorous side of the hobby, there is a need for this.




Picture from a little while back, the increase in light back then seems to have lead to the Blyxa putting out flower stalks. 
I only discovered them as I was trimming the plant group, so that disturbed the plants a bit and they didnt open fully.




Theres been a weekly need to clean the intakes, the slimy thread algae comes loose and clogs up the mesh intakes. 
Then the strands of the algae act like fine filter floss and starts trapping fine particles, leading to almost complete clogging. My canister filters started sucking air because of this.

The slimy thread algae has been growing directly off the glass and inert materials in the tank. This to me indicates that something about the tank setup is massively in favor of thread algae growth, after all, the glass is not having any nutrient issues.
I think the main cause was the light increase, both brighter and for a longer time. I first turned down the brightness (11.11.22), this didnt seem to make a difference to the algae but has made some of the light loving plants look sad.
I know the intensity was switched way down, because those plants changed color practically over night. L. polycarpa and B. caroliniana Colorata turned green and Cryptocoryne spiralis Red (which likes a lot of light for a crypt) turned a pale brown.
Still, the thread algae continued its massive growth. I was pulling out a liters worth of the stuff on a regular basis.
01.12.22 I had to bite the sour apple and also take the photoperiod back to where it used to be, from 10 to 8 hours. If this helps then it really seems like my tank doesnt handle a long photoperiod very well. Should not attempt this again for a long time (future Hufsa please take note).
I turned the intensity of the light above the light hungry plants up by 5%, because they are still very sad and pale. The new lids mean that the old percentages are not as effective as they were, the lid material steals about 20% I believe, and also diffuses and spreads out the light a bit. In addition to that the lights sit higher above the tank than before. So I have to feel my way to new percentages that work well for the light hungry plants in the back.
Its still a bit too early to tell if the photoperiod change has helped, it seems like the thread algae hasnt grown back as quickly so far, but need to give it a while longer to see for sure.

The tank had gone a really long time since last water change, im checking my notes and it says the last one was over 5 weeks ago. Very long and not planned. I havent been very well so the tank has just been running on its own.
Ive been seeing dead shrimp lately and thats a very bad sign, I managed to squeeze in a 50% water change this past tuesday and I want to do another one quite soon. Going to try to get the tank back on a biweekly water change routine, im hoping I can manage that between a somewhat unpredictable life and other obligations. 50% is a lot on a tank that has been running on its own for so long, but since the water that was in there was obviously not good for the shrimp, I went for this percentage in order to try to get the water purged of whatever the shrimp were dying of as soon as possible. 75% felt like it would have been way too much though.

The ferts ran out and have been remade too, I spread it out over two days which made it more managable 
I was on the fence about what to do for a long time, but the duckweed index has once again helped guide the way.

For those who said it was a CO2 issue, suck my take a look at these pictures 
























As you can see in the pictures the chlorosis problem affects the frogbit too, and they really dont look good at all. They are showing a very strongly reticulated pattern in newest growth, going into full necrosis of new leaves as the problem progresses. In the literature I have seen that chlorosis associated with iron presents mainly with paleness between major veins, while manganese chlorosis presents as a more finely netted pattern as the minor veins still retain some greenness. Obviously the appearance of chlorosis varies significantly from plant species to plant species, this is down to how the leaf structure itself is arranged.
Between that and the iron I have been adding for quite some time (pink water with EDDHA, constant positive readings for iron in water column), I think we might be looking at a manganese.
I think the slimy thread algae came about predominantly from the light changes, while the chlorosis issue is more of a separate thing and one that has been running for quite some time as you all know. 
Plants struggling with chlorosis will of course be less resistant to algae, but im not convinced that plant issues alone can lead to thread algae growing straight on glass.

Since I had to make a new batch of ferts anyway, I implemented just one change, added some more Manganese EDTA. Everything else was left the same (@KirstyF pls approve)
So will be going from 0.05 Mn weekly to 0.15 Mn weekly. Fe the same as 50/50 DTPA/Gluc at 0.3 ppm weekly. Continuing to run Fe and Mn in separate solutions from the rest of the micros.
Macros and the other micros are all the same as they were 💪

The frogbit is clearly struggling and overall growth of all the plants is slow, I havent had to remove ANY frogbit since I added them in october, and thats just not normal. The issue really seems to be limiting them, causing a bottleneck of the growth.
Ill see about getting a FTS taken soon™, @plantnoobdude will no doubt be having a tantrum, finally an update but no FTS 😋


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## MichaelJ

Hufsa said:


> The frogbit is clearly struggling and overall growth of all the plants is slow


Might be a fertilizer issue, me thinking 

just joking... thanks for the update @Hufsa !

Cheers,
Michael


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## plantnoobdude

Hufsa said:


> @plantnoobdude will no doubt be having a tantrum, finally an update but no FTS 😋


Of course…..
😡🤬😡!_^%#*_^#


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## KirstyF

Full approval from @KirstyF 😂

The Mn at 0.15 will also match what I’m dosing, though I guess that could be neither here nor there. Different strokes and all that! 😊

If ur up to it, I think a few water changes might help knock back some of that slimy algae too, just by reducing ur organics. 🤞

I’ll update on my progress with my Fe dosing as it’s only been a week since I went back to DTPA only, but I’ve a couple of minor signs of paleness in new growth on my blyxa. May mean nothing as I’ve done a bit of thinning out, so they’ve been disturbed, but I know you were interested so I’ll keep you posted. 😊

Good to see you back on-line. Stay well! 😊


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