# APT Fix



## DaveWatkin (18 Oct 2021)

What are your opinions on this? 

I recently bought some and used it to get rid of some BBA and it worked great, best product I've seen/used, but is there any drawback? The BBA was on some rocks which also had green algae which has also completely vanished, rocks look brand new, although I wasn't bothered about the green algae.

I know it's a bandage method using chemicals but in my particular case the BBA was not actually taking hold, I had fixed the underlying issues, but there were constant baby tufts popping up here and there trying to start. The APT Fix killed them off once and for all and nothings come back so far.


----------



## Zeus. (18 Oct 2021)

APT Fix - D Wongs latest tank treatment to get beautifully algae's free plants.

When I first started Hobby D Wong gain much respect from me as he had some great Vids/advice and the 2Hr aquarist wasn't selling products. Times have changed and he has a complete fert line up for sale and now APT fix. We all have rent /bills to pay but if your selling products your advise/products recommendations may be _bias._

To me the product sound like Liquid carbon (LC), which can be purchased from many LFS/websites. Excel is regarded by some folk as the best, however others use other LC products with success also. Spot treating plants and hardscape with LC is nothing new and can be a very useful tool to combat outbreaks, whilst the underlying root of the problem still needs resolving which can often be light/maintenance/ CO2/ Flow related


----------



## erwin123 (18 Oct 2021)

Entirely possible that one formulation is more 'concentrated' than the other and hence appears more effective.  If the price is the same, then you are getting 'more' for the same price.

For example, I recently managed to get a source of 6% Hydrogen Peroxide that an online seller was importing from India at the same price as my local pharmacy 3% H2O2. When I apply the 6% it bubbles more vigorously than the 3%. It's not magic, its just the difference between 3% and 6%


----------



## DaveWatkin (18 Oct 2021)

I didn't realise it was the same as Excel to be honest, it came with no safety cap and has no warnings on it so didn't realise it was glutaraldehyde based. I've just looked now and it says 3% epoxy aldehydes, guess that's just a sales friendly name for glut then? I assume glutaraldehyde is an epoxy aldehyde


----------



## dw1305 (18 Oct 2021)

Hi all, 


DaveWatkin said:


> epoxy aldehydes


New one on me.  @X3NiTH ?

cheers Darrel


----------



## X3NiTH (18 Oct 2021)

I had a look and it appears that if it is an augmentive additive to standard Glute and not as a simple byproduct of Glute production then the most simple to produce form of Epoxide is Ethylene Oxide, made by reacting ethylene gas with air. It’s a Volatile compound so it will gas off from the water column when used so it shouldn’t have the same permanence as Glute in the water column.

For those that don’t know Ethylene is a signalling molecule within plants that triggers cascading local cell apoptosis radiating outward from the initial trigger.

I can imagine the percentage used at 3% is likely below the threshold limit for higher order plant structure to trigger widespread senescence compared to Algae if uptaken.

It appears that Ethylene Oxide will react quite vigorously with water, the most basic reaction product being monoethylene glycol. 

More Carbon than standard Glute so it is a stronger liquid carbon.


----------



## DaveWatkin (19 Oct 2021)

X3NiTH said:


> More Carbon than standard Glute so it is a stronger liquid carbon.


Most of that went over my head but it sounds like its an actual good product compared to easycarbo or excel then?

How come they are advertising this as a spot dose fixer rather than a daily doser / liquid carbon? Am i right in thinking it could be used as one?

As i said, its algae killing results were better than any other product I’ve tried and the only thing i noticed that could be taken as a downside was that it killed the flower on my buce. No other effects to fauna or livestock though.


----------



## X3NiTH (19 Oct 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> How come they are advertising this as a spot dose fixer rather than a daily doser / liquid carbon? Am i right in thinking it could be used as one?



They are advertising as a spot doser because you absolutely don’t want lots of free ethylene in the tank if used as a source of liquid carbon, there is more carbon in this product but the carbon comes from ethylene. The use of epoxide is likely to augment the effectiveness of the Glute as an algaecide, likely hoping to trigger cascading cell apoptosis within the algae thus tricking it into taking itself out.

Food producers take great care in not allowing ethylene gas to build up around picked fruits and vegetables because it causes premature spoiling of the product and short shelf life. It’s a natural hormone released from plants but when the concentration in tissue reaches a certain threshold it causes cascading destruction radiating out from the initial trigger.

I absolutely would not use this as a liquid carbon supplement!


----------



## Libba (20 Oct 2021)

DaveWatkin said:


> Most of that went over my head but it sounds like its an actual good product compared to easycarbo or excel then?
> 
> How come they are advertising this as a spot dose fixer rather than a daily doser / liquid carbon? Am i right in thinking it could be used as one?
> 
> As i said, its algae killing results were better than any other product I’ve tried and the only thing i noticed that could be taken as a downside was that it killed the flower on my buce. No other effects to fauna or livestock though.



Dennis doesn't believe that gluteraldehyde is a legitimate source of carbon and is also more of an algaecide than anything. That might provide a hint as to why he doesn't label his own product as liquid carbon.


----------



## alanchown (24 Jan 2022)

Has anyone else tried APT fix? I'm going to give it a try and see if it kills BBA on some of my fixtures, heated etc.


----------



## DaveWatkin (26 Jan 2022)

Well I can give you an update, it worked perfectly to kill off what I wanted gone and nothing has come back. Had no ill effect on plants or livestock. 

As previously stated, I didn't have a full outbreak, the BBA was trying but could never get a good foothold, just lots of constant sprouts. Once they were killed off there was nothing left to try and reproduce. For a big outbreak, this will kill it but you also need to fix whatever caused the outbreak in the first place.

Think I used about 10 ml out of the 500 ml bottle I bought, will last me a while haha


----------



## Wolf6 (26 Jan 2022)

DaveWatkin said:


> Well I can give you an update, it worked perfectly to kill off what I wanted gone and nothing has come back. Had no ill effect on plants or livestock.
> 
> As previously stated, I didn't have a full outbreak, the BBA was trying but could never get a good foothold, just lots of constant sprouts. Once they were killed off there was nothing left to try and reproduce. For a big outbreak, this will kill it but you also need to fix whatever caused the outbreak in the first place.
> 
> Think I used about 10 ml out of the 500 ml bottle I bought, will last me a while haha


Did you have any mosses and were those affected? That would be my main concern if I ever have a serious outbreak and wanted to use this, wouldn't want to accidentally kill my fissidens or other mosses.


----------



## DaveWatkin (26 Jan 2022)

Sorry no mosses. Tank it was used in has buces, anubias, java ferns, hygrophila siamensis 53b and red root floaters.


----------



## alanchown (26 Jan 2022)

DaveWatkin said:


> Well I can give you an update, it worked perfectly to kill off what I wanted gone and nothing has come back. Had no ill effect on plants or livestock.
> 
> As previously stated, I didn't have a full outbreak, the BBA was trying but could never get a good foothold, just lots of constant sprouts. Once they were killed off there was nothing left to try and reproduce. For a big outbreak, this will kill it but you also need to fix whatever caused the outbreak in the first place.
> 
> Think I used about 10 ml out of the 500 ml bottle I bought, will last me a while haha


Thanks. I haven't a full outbreak as such. I neglected my tank for a couple of months, and now it's been tidied up wanted to hit the residual BBA on heaters etc.


----------



## alanchown (3 Feb 2022)

Well I have to say the effect on BBA has been quite spectacular. I only had a few tufts on plants as I chucked all the badly affected. But my heater was covered in it. 4 or 5 days of spot treatment, and after a week it's gone. Just a few bits of dead and dieing remaining.


----------



## Wolf6 (3 Feb 2022)

alanchown said:


> Well I have to say the effect on BBA has been quite spectacular. I only had a few tufts on plants as I chucked all the badly affected. But my heater was covered in it. 4 or 5 days of spot treatment, and after a week it's gone. Just a few bits of dead and dieing remaining.


Great news that it worked! Any mosses or plants lost/suffering?


----------



## Jaseon (3 Feb 2022)

How do you spot dose hair algae?


----------



## alanchown (3 Feb 2022)

Wolf6 said:


> Great news that it worked! Any mosses or plants lost/suffering?


Not obviously, however I had previously dumped my mosses. My Vallis was a bit ropey to start with as it was a few rescued bits. But it doesn't look any worse than before I started the APT. Hygrophila, crypts, blyxa, rotala and Java Fern all look fine.
Excel always causes Vallis to melt for me, but as I say it looks OK with APT.


----------



## alanchown (3 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> How do you spot dose hair algae?


BBA is not hair algae, it grows in tufts. I use a syringe to target the tufts. On hardware I just syringe it all over as the tufts tend to form a carpet. 
It seems to have been more successful than my usual Excel/peroxide treatment.


----------



## Jaseon (3 Feb 2022)

alanchown said:


> BBA is not hair algae, it grows in tufts. I use a syringe to target the tufts. On hardware I just syringe it all over as the tufts tend to form a carpet.
> It seems to have been more successful than my usual Excel/peroxide treatment.


Per the instructions...Especially effective for BBA, hair/string/fuzz and most forms of filamentous algae. Ive had fine hair algae which i manually removed, and couldn't imagine how you would go about spot treating it.


----------



## alanchown (3 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Per the instructions...Especially effective for BBA, hair/string/fuzz and most forms of filamentous algae. Ive had fine hair algae which i manually removed, and couldn't imagine how you would go about spot treating it.


The instructions do say you can dose the entire tank. It just says not effective as spot dosing, which clearly would be tricky on some algae. I've never had a major issue with the other types of algae.


----------



## Jaseon (3 Feb 2022)

alanchown said:


> The instructions do say you can dose the entire tank. It just says not effective as spot dosing, which clearly would be tricky on some algae. I've never had a major issue with the other types of algae.


Right yeah i imagined it would be something like that.


----------



## Epiphyte (4 Feb 2022)

Jumping in potentially late here but APT has been superb for killing off staghorn that I have been plagued with. I haven't had much luck with glut but this product has worked wonders for me.

Not tried directly on plants (Dave from AG reports it killed the leaves he used it on) but I may try if it comes back.


----------



## alanchown (4 Feb 2022)

Epiphyte said:


> Not tried directly on plants (Dave from AG reports it killed the leaves he used it on) but I may try if it comes back.


I tried it direct on crypts and java fern with no apparent issue.


----------



## Epiphyte (4 Feb 2022)

alanchown said:


> I tried it direct on crypts and java fern with no apparent issue.


Nice, thanks. Sadly I've got some Spirogyra in my tank, I feel as if it might work as it seems to be a great product but I'm very reluctant to spray it near the mosses and stems.

I've got the tiniest bit of BBA on an anubias, I may try during water changes today


----------



## Zhekus (4 May 2022)

Epiphyte said:


> Jumping in potentially late here but APT has been superb for killing off staghorn that I have been plagued with. I haven't had much luck with glut but this product has worked wonders for me.
> 
> Not tried directly on plants (Dave from AG reports it killed the leaves he used it on) but I may try if it comes back.


Can you please tell me how you dosed it?


----------



## kayjo (4 May 2022)

I know Excel works for many people, but it had no effect in my tank.  I even soaked plants with algae (BBA) in 100% excel overnight.  It didn't hurt the plant or the algae.  I tried Fix and the algae was gone in a couple days.  It died and the snails ate it.  I applied it by spot dosing, not by treating the entire tank.  I apply it directly to the plants and have never had any plant damage.


----------



## Wookii (4 May 2022)

kayjo said:


> I know Excel works for many people, but it had no effect in my tank.  I even soaked plants with algae (BBA) in 100% excel overnight.  It didn't hurt the plant or the algae.  I tried Fix and the algae was gone in a couple days.  It died and the snails ate it.  I applied it by spot dosing, not by treating the entire tank.  I apply it directly to the plants and have never had any plant damage.



Something very wrong with your Excel there, it will completely destroy almost any plant if exposed to 100% Excel, even for a minute, let alone overnight. I tried spraying an anubias plant, out of the tank with a 1 part Excel and 4 parts water mix to get rid of some BBA, and left the misted plant out of the tank for 5 minutes - over the next few days it melted to mush.


----------



## Epiphyte (4 May 2022)

Zhekus said:


> Can you please tell me how you dosed it?


Most effective way on hardscape has been drop the water level, dose with the pipette, wait for a while then fill back up. It completely kills BBA.

On plants it does work, though I tend to dose under the water line


----------



## Zhekus (4 May 2022)

Epiphyte said:


> Most effective way on hardscape has been drop the water level, dose with the pipette, wait for a while then fill back up. It completely kills BBA.
> 
> On plants it does work, though I tend to dose under the water line


Thank you!


----------



## kayjo (5 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> Something very wrong with your Excel there, it will completely destroy almost any plant if exposed to 100% Excel, even for a minute, let alone overnight. I tried spraying an anubias plant, out of the tank with a 1 part Excel and 4 parts water mix to get rid of some BBA, and left the misted plant out of the tank for 5 minutes - over the next few days it melted to mush.


Yeah, that's what I figured.  I didn't think it could expire, but I guess it can.  It was a newly purchased bottle too.  Needless to say, I wasn't willing to spend more money on another bottle to see if I was right.  I tried Fix, and was very impressed with the results.


----------



## jaypeecee (13 May 2022)

Hi Folks,

For those who are using _APT Fix_, do the instructions include any safety information? This may be supplied as a _Material Safety Data Sheet_, if considered applicable by the manufacturer. I only ask as it may disclose some of the ingredients. Even though we sometimes have very little/no choice, I, like others, feel a tad uncomfortable adding unknown potions to my tanks.

JPC


----------



## Wookii (13 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> For those who are using _APT Fix_, do the instructions include any safety information? This may be supplied as a _Material Safety Data Sheet_, if considered applicable by the manufacturer. I only ask as it may disclose some of the ingredients. Even though we sometimes have very little/no choice, I, like others, feel a tad uncomfortable adding unknown potions to my tanks.
> 
> JPC



I bought a bottle this week to try out, as I’ve got a bit of Staghorn making an appearance in my holding tank. No, no MSDS included, but the liquid has a the same familiar ‘green’ smell (!) as Excel, but not identical.


----------



## jaypeecee (13 May 2022)

Wookii said:


> I bought a bottle this week to try out, as I’ve got a bit of Staghorn making an appearance in my holding tank. No, no MSDS included, but the liquid has a the same familiar ‘green’ smell (!) as Excel, but not identical.



Hi Gareth (@Wookii)

I will be interested in your findings. I have an idea what the active ingredient may be. But, I'm keeping that close to my chest for the moment. Chemistry isn't my forte but I'd be happy to exchange ideas with any professional Chemists. I just don't want to be the instigator of bad science, if that makes sense.

JPC


----------



## kayjo (14 May 2022)

The Fix bottle lists the ingredients as 3% epoxy aldehydes.  They do not provide the msds for any of their products.

I noticed that Buce Plants has a new product for algae control.  I asked them if it was gluteraldehyde based, but they would not tell me.  They said it is an extract of organic waste and comprised of natural compounds that inhibit photosynthesis in single-cell organisms.  The MsDS says that it is non toxic.  They say it is organic, but so is gluteraldehyde, so that means little.  I checked the MSDS and is says it's nontoxic except that it is a mild eye irritant.


----------



## tiger15 (14 May 2022)

APTFix sounds like gluteraldehyde from the description that it is  effective against BBA, biodegradable within 24 hours, and will not harm plants except Vals, mosses and liverworts.  There is less description on Buce algae control and the MSDS is uninformative, but it appears to be another repackaged Glut.  Both claimed to be non toxic to fish and shrimp, which is true as Glut is least toxic to live stock.  Personally  I have dosed Glut at  twice the recommended dosage with no impact on fish and shrimp.  Glut, however, is narrow spectrum and is ineffective against  GSA, GDA, green water, and green thread algae (spirogyra, clado).

Interestingly, both 2Hr and Buce web sites have an algae control section and both recommend using Glut and H2O2 to treat algae while marketing their own repackaged Glut products.


----------



## Hanuman (14 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Gareth (@Wookii)
> 
> I will be interested in your findings. I have an idea what the active ingredient may be. But, I'm keeping that close to my chest for the moment. Chemistry isn't my forte but I'd be happy to exchange ideas with any professional Chemists. I just don't want to be the instigator of bad science, if that makes sense.
> 
> JPC


Did you read the first page of this thread? X3NiTH made some very interesting comments on the product.


----------



## jaypeecee (15 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Did you read the first page of this thread? X3NiTH made some very interesting comments on the product.


Hi @Hanuman 

Yes, I read the comments made by @X3NiTH and, who knows, he may be correct. But I arrived at a different conclusion. I do know one or two professional chemists whose knowledge of organic chemistry goes way beyond mine. I'm generally OK with inorganic chemistry but organic chemistry is a different ball-game.

JPC


----------



## Mortis (27 Jun 2022)

I got a bottle to check out. To me it seems to be a bit more concentrated Glut with a bit of thickener added to it. I guess that is the Epoxy Aldehyde bit of jargon. The slightly thicker and stronger solution makes it work faster and cling to the treated areas better/longer.

@dw1305 Any clue as to suitable thickeners for Glut ?


----------



## dw1305 (27 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


Mortis said:


> @dw1305 Any clue as to suitable thickeners for Glut ?


Unfortunately not. @X3NiTH might be a better option?

cheers Darrel


----------



## X3NiTH (27 Jun 2022)

I have no personal experience but looking at online literature you will need to experiment thickening with powdered Starches, Gelatine or Agar. These will cross link with the Glute lengthening the molecule and causing gelling, I have no idea if crosslinking the Glute with these products will inactivate the Glute. I had a cursory look at whether Glute crosslinks with itself at higher concentrations (self gelling) and I couldn’t find anything, I suspect it might.


----------



## jaypeecee (27 Jun 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> I have an idea what the active ingredient may be. But, I'm keeping that close to my chest for the moment. Chemistry isn't my forte but I'd be happy to exchange ideas with any professional Chemists. I just don't want to be the instigator of bad science, if that makes sense.


Hi Everyone,

I am just about to contradict myself. At the risk of instigating bad science, I'm going to take a chance and suggest that _APT Fix_ is based on formaldehyde. As an introduction, please see the following:

"*formaldehyde* is produced from *epoxy* resins " and:



			https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/iej.12389
		


JPC


----------



## Hanuman (28 Jun 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am just about to contradict myself. At the risk of instigating bad science, I'm going to take a chance and suggest that _APT Fix_ is based on formaldehyde. As an introduction, please see the following:
> 
> ...


I tried reading. Way beyond my intellectual capacities. 🤯


----------



## X3NiTH (28 Jun 2022)

Appears Glutaraldehyde  will cross link Lipids and Proteins in the presence of Epoxides and form copolymers.

Cyanobacteria are rich in Glycerolipids.

Might just be gumming up the works to starve Cyano to death.



Some Sources -

_Glutaraldehyde: behavior in aqueous solution, reaction with proteins, and application to enzyme crosslinking -_​


			https://www.future-science.com/doi/10.2144/04375RV01
		


*Glutaraldehyde-crosslinked poly(glycidol-block-ethylene oxide-block-glycidol) networks with temperature- responsive swelling - *



			https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/epoly.2003.3.1.565/pdf
		


_Microalgae and Cyanobacteria Strains as Producers of Lipids with Antibacterial and Antibiofilm Activity -_​








						Microalgae and Cyanobacteria Strains as Producers of Lipids with Antibacterial and Antibiofilm Activity
					

Lipids are one of the primary metabolites of microalgae and cyanobacteria, which enrich their utility in the pharmaceutical, feed, cosmetic, and chemistry sectors. This work describes the isolation, structural elucidation, and the antibiotic and antibiofilm ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## jaypeecee (28 Jun 2022)

Hi Folks,

The _2Hr Aquarist_ website states "*APT* *FIX* contains a proprietary formulation of epoxy aldehydes". And, on the basis that "*formaldehyde* is produced from *epoxy* resins", it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that APT Fix may be based on formaldehyde, does it?

At the end of the day, I would much rather get to the root cause of algae infestations rather than rely on magic potions.

JPC


----------



## dw1305 (28 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


jaypeecee said:


> And, on the basis that "*formaldehyde* is produced from *epoxy* resins", it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that APT Fix may be based on formaldehyde, does it?


Formalin (an aqueous solution of formaldehyde) has been / is used (partially) as an <"algaecide on Salmon farms"> etc. All these substances are really biocides (<"formalin is used for fish parasite control"> etc) and you are reliant on your target organism dying before your fish etc. does.

Personally I wouldn't use any of them ever, but peoples priorities differ. 

I note, from the Salmon farming link, that one Scottish Salmon Farm got through 4.4 tonnes of formalin *in a month* and over 18 tonnes altogether in 2018.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jolt100 (28 Jun 2022)

Hi all, Formaldehyde doesn't have any epoxide linkage and would no longer be available to the general public because of its carcinogenic properties. 
A possible candidate would be 2,3 epoxy propan 1 al ( also known as Glycinaldehyde; 2,3-Epoxy-1-propanal; 2,3-Epoxypropanal; 2,3-Epoxypropionaldehyde; Epihydrinaldehyde; Epihydrine aldehyde; Epoxypropanal; Formyloxiran; Glycidal; Oxirane-carboxaldehyde; Propionaldehyde, 2,3-epoxy-; Oxiranecarboxaldehyde 
This is basically Glutaraldehyde with an epoxy linkage. I don't know how they get away with bypassing health and safety if it is this as both the aldehyde and epoxy groups would make this irritant at the least and more likely toxic . 
I haven't been able to find an EU source, possibly its because of the REACH regulations,  but it is available in China. 
Unfortunately after retiring I no longer have access to any analytical equipment so its just hypothesis. If anyone has any other ideas?
Cheers
John


----------



## dw1305 (28 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


jolt100 said:


> 2,3 epoxy propan 1 al ( also known as Glycinaldehyde; 2,3-Epoxy-1-propanal; 2,3-Epoxypropanal; 2,3-Epoxypropionaldehyde; Epihydrinaldehyde; Epihydrine aldehyde; Epoxypropanal; Formyloxiran; Glycidal; Oxirane-carboxaldehyde; Propionaldehyde, 2,3-epoxy-; Oxiranecarboxaldehyde


Don't you just love organic chemistry. 


jolt100 said:


> Unfortunately after retiring I no longer have access to any analytical equipment so its just hypothesis. If anyone has any other ideas?


We have a HPLC, what we don't have at the moment is an chemist and I believe the method itself isn't entirely straightforward?


> Derivatization in HPLC methods is required to transform the analyte into a form that can be detected with the required sensitivity and selectivity........ Glutaraldehyde is a compound with no chromophore group so that it must be derivatized with DNPH. DNPH was titrated to determine optimal derivatization conditions......



cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee (28 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Formalin (an aqueous solution of formaldehyde) has been / is used (partially) as an <"algaecide on Salmon farms"> etc. All these substances are really biocides (<"formalin is used for fish parasite control"> etc) and you are reliant on your target organism dying before your fish etc. does.





jolt100 said:


> Hi all, Formaldehyde doesn't have any epoxide linkage and would no longer be available to the general public because of its carcinogenic properties.


Hi @dw1305 & @jolt100 

Many thanks to both of you for correcting me.

JPC


----------



## Mortis (29 Jun 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> I have no personal experience but looking at online literature you will need to experiment thickening with powdered Starches, Gelatine or Agar. These will cross link with the Glute lengthening the molecule and causing gelling, I have no idea if crosslinking the Glute with these products will inactivate the Glute. I had a cursory look at whether Glute crosslinks with itself at higher concentrations (self gelling) and I couldn’t find anything, I suspect it might.


I do know that Glut forms a linear polymer chain by crosslinking with itself when boiled. Maybe Agar might work when added to boiling Glut as a thickener in minute qtys


----------

