# Is this any good?



## Palm Tree (3 Sep 2012)

Hi im looking at getting a decent camera but I dont want to spend too much. Im not thinking of going pro or anything just looking for a decent camera to start off with to see if I like photography. Is the canon EOS 20d any good? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-EOS...Cameras_DigitalCameras_JN&hash=item3f1ba27a24
Can anybody recomend one for under £200


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## Palm Tree (3 Sep 2012)

Or the canon 350d or 1000d


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## ceg4048 (3 Sep 2012)

Hello, 
        Yes, any of the three models are excellent choices and you are not likely to see a difference in the photos tanken with any of them. The differences are in handling or in superficial features which have little to do with the quality of the photo. For example the 350D has a better LCD and the 1000D has a much lighter body, so it's easier to carry around all day.

It's the photographer that takes the picture so ultimately, it's up to you to learn how to use whichever model you decide to purchase in order to produce the best image.

In fact, more important than the body that you choose is the lens that will be fitted to it.

Cheers,


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## Palm Tree (3 Sep 2012)

What lenses would you suggest for the 350d, im looking for a lens to do close ups and I think thats a macro lens and a lens for everyday photography like landscapes and such


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## ceg4048 (3 Sep 2012)

OK, well, landscape photography is the complete opposite of macro photography. In landscapes you are taking picture of a wide field of view, whereas with macro, your field of view is extremely narrow. Therefore it's a difficult objective to satisfy both equally well. Every lens is a compromise so the more things you ask the lens to do the less well it does all of them.

If you want a "do-everything" type of lens then be prepared to pay, however, such a lens will hold it's value if it's a canon lens. To save money, you can get a third party lens like Sigma, or Tamron. Be very careful with lens selection on Canon bodies because they make three types of DSLR bodies: Full Frame -  which means the image sensor is about the same size as the old 35mm SLRs
1.3X Crop - which means the image sensor is about 30% smaller than the old 35mm SLRs
1.6X Crop - which means the image sensor is about 60% smaller than the old 35mm SLRs.

The three cameras you listed are all 1.6X crop and the lenses that are optimized or that even fit on these bodies are the lenses marked EF and EF-S. There are exceptions but generally this is the rule of thumb. If you opt for a different body type then the set of lenses that are compatible are different.

Probably a better choice for a lens that covers the range  is the Canon EF 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM, which goes for about £450 on ebay "buy-it-now" but which you might get for lower at used auction, probably half that. I buy some of my lenses used from reputable ebayers and have had pretty good luck. I have Nikon though which has a much broader selection of excellent old lenses which are compatible with almost any of their bodies.

If this seems too outrageous then you'll have to settle for the Canon 18-55mm IS II EF-S which goes for about 1/4 the price.

Neither of these lenses are particularly brilliant for macro, but you can attach "Close-up" lenses to get macro performance.

If you want a lens that has dedicated macro, excellent portrait ability, but which has less landscape ability and much less flexibility then the Canon 100mm f/2.8 Macro is hard to beat. However, as you can see it has only a single fixed focal length, so if you want to take landscapes then you need to step back a lot more than if you were using one of the other lenses listed above, which have the ability to vary their focal length. Again, this is not cheap.

So those are a few samples of what you can look at depending on your budget. Bodies come and go but lenses are timeless.

Hope this doesn't put you off too much. Like I mentioned, the third party lenses are an option but I don't know much about them. Tokina do have a good reputation though so have a look at their equivalents products.

Cheers,


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## Palm Tree (3 Sep 2012)

I was looking at two seperate lenses one for macro one for everyday. I didn't realise how expensive they are. Are there and good lenses for general use for under £50


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## ceg4048 (4 Sep 2012)

Check this ebay page http://www.ebay.co.uk/ctg/Canon-EFS-185 ... ers_Lenses for the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 lens. Used at auction for your target price. This is an excellent lens, very light, auto-focuses fast and can focus on objects as close as 11 inches. This lens was originally sold as a kit lens with the 1.6X crop bodies like the 20D, 30D and so forth. It's sharp, light, will do macro and can easily do landscape. It's a great general purpose lens.

Disadvantages; It's only useful on 1.6X crop sensor cameras like the 350D, 10D, 20D, 30D and so forth, so if you change your body to one of the other sensor size formats it will have problems. If you're not planning on changing your camera body any time soon then this is a non-issue. The lens is old school, so it does not have fancy innovations like image stabilization (IS), which means if you have shaky hands you incur a higher probability of blurring the picture. That's not a big deal for macro, where you ought to be using a tripod anyway. It's mostly plastic. but who cares if it takes great pictures, right? 

They do sell an IS version of this lens (called the MK II) but for slightly more money; the cheapest ebay "buy-it-now" price I've seen is around £60 => http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CANON-EF- ... ers_Lenses

I would probably pay the small premium for the MK II. Image stabilization really does help you to take less blurry photos, especially when the lighting is poor.

Cheers,


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## Palm Tree (4 Sep 2012)

Ok thanks for all your help in a month i'll have enough money to get the 350d with the CANON EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 MK II lense. Be warned in a month there is gonna be a new thread asking how to use it properly though


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## ceg4048 (4 Sep 2012)

Good stuff. By the way, I forgot to mention that the hardware is only part of the story. There is also the issue of image processing. In the old days we needed chemicals to develop the film, enlargers and paper to print the image. Now the image is virtual. It only exists as ones and zeros, so to "develop the film" now means to process the image with software. 

In order to get the very best out of your camera, you'll need an image processor, the most famous product is Adobe Photoshop which cost more money. There is a free alternative however; The Gimp was originally developed as a Linux open-source Photoshop "do-alike" and it really does do the same things. You can't beat the price and it can be found at their home page. The program has been ported to Window$ and although it has a steep learning curve it's well worth the effort. http://www.gimp.org/

You can get it now while you're waiting and start learning how to use it using any images you already have.

Cheers,


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## Palm Tree (5 Sep 2012)

I totally forgot about photoshop we had the whole adobe CS4 collection at school before I left. I'll check out The gimp now


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## Palm Tree (19 Nov 2012)

Ok its crunch time in two weeks, i'm 99% sure on a Canon 1000d with a Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS lens.
I have downloaded Gimp 2 but I have access to Adobe photoshop as well so i'll play around and see which one is better, I still have no clue what I would use them for as i'm used to point and shoot digital cameras where you just upload the pictures and you're done.
Is there any other accessorys I would need like a tripod ect...


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## ceg4048 (19 Nov 2012)

Hi mate,
             Really, I wouldn't bother getting anything else right now, because the more stuff you have the less time you spend learning how to take pictures. You wind up figuring how stuff works and that get's in the way. You can always get more gear. About the only accessory would be lens cleaning paper or kit.

Only a novice is unable to imagine what to do with the Photoshop. Image programs are where you clean up the images and make them what you thought you saw.

Photography is all about learning how to see. Your photo has only 2 dimensions and the world has 3 dimensions, so when you take a shot the image is often boring and uninspiring, and looks nothing like what you saw through the viewfinder. The image programs help you to retrieve some of what was lost in the translation. You can sharpen the image, lighten areas which came out dark - or darken areas you want to de-emphasize. You can add more color or remove color to change the mood. You can remove entire parts of the image that are boring by cropping out the ugly parts and make the composition more intimate or less tedious. People seldom think about this stuff and that's why most photos are rubbish, because they haven't learned to imagine the final image BEFORE the shot is taken. And imagination has nothing to do with the camera, point and shoot or otherwise...  

Cheers,


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## basil (19 Nov 2012)

Ceg - some great posts in there and really well explained too. Looking at a DSLR myself and I've been blown away by the many options on body and lens for a sensible budget. Think I'm a macro closer to understanding now thanks  !

Cheers mike.


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## krazypara3165 (20 Nov 2012)

a bit of a wildcard, but i have a http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Olympus-EVOLT ... 3f1efc3a87 olympus e420-d. cracking little camera ideal for beginners and ive taken some awesome photos with it. as ceg said i wouldnt worry about accessories for the time being, as long as you have 1 lens that is all you need. i would strongly reccomend doing a course, the things i have learnt so far are very simple to learn and often overlooked! i have done three day courses with going digital. very well priced and usually a great day out and they even provide handouts and additional feedback! http://www.goingdigital.co.uk/


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## Palm Tree (20 Nov 2012)

krazypara3165 said:
			
		

> a bit of a wildcard, but i have a http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Olympus-EVOLT ... 3f1efc3a87 olympus e420-d. cracking little camera ideal for beginners and ive taken some awesome photos with it. as ceg said i wouldnt worry about accessories for the time being, as long as you have 1 lens that is all you need. i would strongly reccomend doing a course, the things i have learnt so far are very simple to learn and often overlooked! i have done three day courses with going digital. very well priced and usually a great day out and they even provide handouts and additional feedback! http://www.goingdigital.co.uk/



Cheers for the link to the photography courses, I'll see how I go first but my sixth form does photography so mabey she can give me some tips aswell.
Thats a very neat little camera it has some great specs, I can see why you like it.


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## Palm Tree (4 Jan 2013)

Kind of an update, I'm off to jessops tomorrow to have a hold of the Canon 1100D and the Nikon D3100 and see what I prefer although at the moment I prefer the 1100D. I've chose against the 350d and 1000d as they don't have video modes which means I'm stuffed if I see something funny because I can't sell it to you've been framed for £250 (to buy myself a proper macro lens)  But seriously I need the video mode so that was the deal breaker.


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## Palm Tree (7 Jan 2013)

I much prefer the Canon 1100d over the Nikon D3100, except I liked the thumb grip on the D3100. Have to wait a few days for my discounted vouchers to arive but I am getting the Canon 1100d with a 18-55mm lens (non IS) for £240. Hopefully I am going to sell the lens and buy the IS version.


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