# Root tabs and/or liquid ferts



## Aqua360 (14 Nov 2021)

Having recently been reading into root tabs, what are people's experience/opinion on their use?

2 tanks I'm running have no epiphytes, would it be advisable to do root tabs only, or in conjunction with ferts?

I've also heard tropica tabs leave unsightly remnants, do seachem tabs or equivalent suffer the same problem?

I've always used ferts only, but curious to see if I'm missing out


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## erwin123 (14 Nov 2021)

As I have very old substrate, I have also been experimenting with root tabs.
I'm currently using Aquario Neo Tabs and JBL Ferropol Root but they have a lot less nutrients than the equivalent osmocote, for example, standard Osmocote has 15/15/15% NPK while JBL has 2.1/3.5/5% and Neo has 1.91/0.64/1.27% Or am I reading it wrongly?

I have just ordered an Osmocote clone with the intention of using them sparingly (due to their Ammonia and Copper content) and will adapt the guidance  in 2hr aquarist: How to use osmocote for substrate in planted aquarium. I am hoping that it will help my Ludwigia Sphaerocarpa...


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## erwin123 (17 Nov 2021)

This is the Osmocote clone that I'm experimenting with (I infer its an osmocote clone as it states that release is dependent on temperature - i.e. temperature affects release rate unlike competing delivery systems like nutricote). I simply picked whatever had the lowest copper (this is 0.025% Cu lower than 0.05% in other formulations I looked at).  

Anyway, its an experiment, and I restricted the number I added by only adding them next to the stems of the more difficult plants.  I'll report back if anything good/bad happens....


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## tiger15 (17 Nov 2021)

All aquatic plants can uptake nutrients from the foliage, so they can be fed exclusively from the water column.    Plants with heavy root system such as Sword and Crypt were perceived as heavy root feeder, but in reality, their extensive roots are used to anchor in fast moving stream bed.  It wont hurt to feed plants with root tabs, except that it's hard to get even distribution and control the release rate.  Water column dosing is more controllable, precise and quantifiable.

I grow my plants in inert substrate and dose only in the water column, so essentially I grow my plants hydroponically.  I don't use root tabs,  except occasionally I threw in a few  Osmocote tabs as vacation slow release fertilizer.


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## erwin123 (17 Nov 2021)

tiger15 said:


> All aquatic plants can uptake nutrients from the foliage, so they can be fed exclusively from the water column.    Plants with heavy root system such as Sword and Crypt were perceived as heavy root feeder, but in reality, their extensive roots are used to anchor in fast moving stream bed.  It wont hurt to feed plants with root tabs, except that it's hard to get even distribution and control the release rate.  Water column dosing is more controllable, precise and quantifiable.
> 
> I grow my plants in inert substrate and dose only in the water column, so essentially I grow my plants hydroponically.  I don't use root tabs,  except occasionally I threw in a few  Osmocote tabs as vacation slow release fertilizer.



You have no disagreement from me on that.

But after reading all 55 pages of the Rotala Kill Tank thread by Vin Kutty in Barr Report and being inspired by it, I'm going to give "starxcote" (osmocote) a shot.  ISome of the conclusions in the Rotala Kill Tank thread actually echo some of the observations I've read in the 2hr aquarist website, but that should be no surprise as I understand that Vin and Dennis know each other and the 2hr aquarist site features one of Vin's aquascapes.

I have 3 target plants that I want to test osmocote on (though certainly not the amount used in the Rotala Kill Tank).


*L. Senegelansis *.Vin Kutty and Dennis in 2hr aquarist both say that this benefits from root feeding (2hr aquarist does not sell root tabs/substrate enhancers - so if they say 'please use something that is not my product' it might be credible)
Rotala Kill Tank
How to grow Ludwigia senegalensis

*L. Sphaerocarpa *(so little is written about it, I don't know what it needs, so I guess osmocote is worth a shot - I had to uproot a stem to cut and replant, found its roots wrapped around a root tab...)
*A.Pedicatella *(various comments about Ammanias preferring root feeding)


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## MichaelJ (17 Nov 2021)

Aqua360 said:


> Having recently been reading into root tabs, what are people's experience/opinion on their use?


I used to be big on root tabs (Tropica, Seachem and Planted Aquarium Concepts). I've stopped using them though. Now, and for a long time, I have only been relying on water-column dosing in abundance for my two densely planted tanks. My substrate is inert as well. I haven't noticed any adverse effect on my so-called heavy root feeders (Anubias, Swords, Crypts) - as a matter of fact they are all growing as good as they ever have.  I do think there are some merit to popping in some tabs in a new tank if you have inert substrate to give the substrate a nutrient boost. But in the long run, water column dosing should be sufficient. 



Aqua360 said:


> 2 tanks I'm running have no epiphytes, would it be advisable to do root tabs only, or in conjunction with ferts?


I can't imagine any adverse effect from doing both, but I would mainly rely on the water column dosing when the tank is mature. Its much easier as well, and so many more options for column dosing vs. pre-made tabs.



Aqua360 said:


> I've also heard tropica tabs leave unsightly remnants, do seachem tabs or equivalent suffer the same problem?


I never experienced this... The tropica capsules have a tendency to float if they are not deep enough into the substrate and they can break apart... the Seachem and Concepts ones won't.

Cheers,
Michael


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## ceg4048 (18 Nov 2021)

Aqua360 said:


> Having recently been reading into root tabs, what are people's experience/opinion on their use?
> 
> 2 tanks I'm running have no epiphytes, would it be advisable to do root tabs only, or in conjunction with ferts?
> 
> ...



As mentioned by the other posters, there is no requirement for root tabs if you intend to dose the water column. Since plants uptake nutrients from either location you can either use an nutritious substrate, such as ADA Aquasoil or insert nutrients into the substrate such as Osmocote/clone or homemade versions.
Its always nice to have a nutritious substrate as you can be lazy or forget to dose the water column occasionally. This is also good if you are away for a while, such as going on holiday etc.

Cheers,


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## Happi (20 Nov 2021)

I have yet to see a plant not growing well under water Colum dosing only, the good results those guys are seeing from root tabs very well is a result of nutrients leaching from the root tabs into the water. Ammonium/Urea being the major player for good over all growth of those plants which they claim are hard to grow. I bet if you added some NH4/Urea to your dosing, plant like Ludwigia senegalensis should have no problem growing. I use to grow these plants under Urea and trimmed them every week.
 I do like Vin and his work but even he himself have said that the results he got are hypothesis.

Video can be found here if you have access to it:





						AGA2019 – Google Drive
					






					drive.google.com
				





Edit: I believe they are referring to ammania senegalensis and other species as well, these guys were grown under higher dosing using NH4NO3, this is a experimental tank. you can see there is some damage to leaves but the growth was good overall.


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## MichaelJ (21 Nov 2021)

Happi said:


> I have yet to see a plant not growing well under water Colum dosing only, the good results those guys are seeing from root tabs very well is a result of nutrients leaching from the root tabs into the water.


Hi @Happi I've had the exact same experience. I do think it might be beneficial to "prime" inert substrate with tabs...however, it might be that, like you said, that they are just ending up leaching into the water column.

Cheers,
Michael


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## Aqua360 (21 Nov 2021)

Btw just an update on this, not sure if directly responsible; but I've had a wave of shrimp deaths coinciding with the tropica root tabs floating from beneath the surface. 

Can't say conclusively it's the root tabs, but I think lesson learned, if it ain't broke (water column dosing), don't fix it


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## erwin123 (21 Nov 2021)

Happi said:


> I have yet to see a plant not growing well under water Colum dosing only, the good results those guys are seeing from root tabs very well is a result of nutrients leaching from the root tabs into the water. Ammonium/Urea being the major player for good over all growth of those plants which they claim are hard to grow. I bet if you added some NH4/Urea to your dosing, plant like Ludwigia senegalensis should have no problem growing. I use to grow these plants under Urea and trimmed them every week.
> I do like Vin and his work but even he himself have said that the results he got are hypothesis.


Thanks, I have no strong views on the mechanics of how osmocote works, whether it feeds the roots of plants or just enters the water column. More important to me is to test out whether osmocote has any effect in my tank and on plants like Sengelansis.  If it does, great, because I guess I'm the type of hobbyist that constantly has to 'tinker' and experiment 

its really cheap (compared to 'aquarium' root tabs)
simple to use - I followed 2hr aquarist instruction and used a tweezer to strategically insert single pellets rather than the other methods of filling up a gelatin capsule or even freezing them in ice. Probably simpler than direct NH4/Urea dosing for a beginner like me.
lasts a few months (i.e. I don't have to constantly insert osmocote into the substrate)

Regarding which Senegelansis, Vin has a post about L. Senegelansis liking Osmocote. 












						Rotala Kill Tank
					

Probably around 100 to 120 at the substrate.  Wow, that’s high light. Amazing how well plants can grow with this “non-dosing” regimen.




					barrreport.com


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## Happi (21 Nov 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Happi I've had the exact same experience. I do think it might be beneficial to "prime" inert substrate with tabs...however, it might be that, like you said, that they are just ending up leaching into the water column.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


That is Correct, I once measured Ammonia and NO3 levels and they were maxing out the test kits after multiple water changes. plus, I don't fully believe in root feeding at all, aquatic plant were meant to uptake from the water Colum. root feeding seems to be beneficial to some plants but the assumption is that its working because it is in the root under the substrate but no one ever think about that it could leach into the water as well. there is plenty of movement by O2 in the substrate and the water is actually moving around quite allot in the substrate, especially under granules type soil or substrate such as aqua soil. based on this theory root tabs are not very effective if they were added under the sand type substrate.


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## Happi (21 Nov 2021)

@erwin123

I use to use this one and it works quite well, the hairgrass was super thick and green under it. I used this type because it used oxide based traces rather than the EDTA based. the plant on the far left didn't really do much. I have to admit that it grew algae as well as you can see in the picture, this too was an experimental tank.



			https://icl-sf.com/uploads/USA/Product%20Sheets/OH/OH1014%20Osmocote%20Blend%20A901316%20%2819-5-8%29%288-9M%29%20Product%20Info%20Sheet.pdf


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## Courtneybst (21 Nov 2021)

erwin123 said:


> simple to use - I followed 2hr aquarist instruction and used a tweezer to strategically insert single pellets


I read about this recently. Did you find this ok to do when filled with water? The balls didn't start to dissolve or escape your tweezers?

I was thinking this could be useful for when a scape is fully grown in and as trying to insert a capsule into a dense carpet or bush is impractical.


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## erwin123 (21 Nov 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> I read about this recently. Did you find this ok to do when filled with water? The balls didn't start to dissolve or escape your tweezers?
> 
> I was thinking this could be useful for when a scape is fully grown in and as trying to insert a capsule into a dense carpet or bush is impractical.


Yes, the balls don't appear to start dissolving/disintegrating in water the moment you put them in. 

For good measure, I tested my nitrate levels 48 hours after I finished inserting the osmocote and there was no discernible change in the colour of the test result.


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## Happi (21 Nov 2021)

It will take a while for them to start releasing the nutrients, water has to fully go through those hard shells. I would test every week to see if you notice jump in nh3/nh4 and no3 reading. It also depends on how much root tabs you are using.


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## tiger15 (21 Nov 2021)

Happi said:


> That is Correct, I once measured Ammonia and NO3 levels and they were maxing out the test kits after multiple water changes. plus, I don't fully believe in root feeding at all, aquatic plant were meant to uptake from the water Colum. root feeding seems to be beneficial to some plants but the assumption is that its working because it is in the root under the substrate but no one ever think about that it could leach into the water as well. there is plenty of movement by O2 in the substrate and the water is actually moving around quite allot in the substrate, especially under granules type soil or substrate such as aqua soil. based on this theory root tabs are not very effective if they were added under the sand type substrate.


There is not much water movement in the substrate unless you have an undergravel filter to create a hydraulic gradient.   However, there is soluble nutrients movement down concentration gradient by diffusion, that is, from root tab to the water column or from the water column to the root zone depending on which side is more concentrated.  So whether you dose the water column or insert root tabs, nutrients will distribute to both the water column and root zone.  The difference between the two is that water column dosing is instantly available, whereas root tab nutrients are slowly available to plants by diffusion through the semi permeable capsule.   

I watch the Rotala Kill Tank video with interest but skepticism.  Vin's research narrowly focused on a few Rotala species that I've never heard of or are known to be difficult. If he chose easy Rotala such as R. Rotundifoliar, they will never get stunt.  Also his conclusion is contradictory to his findings in that high kH is the primary factor of stunt stems, not heavy or lean dosing of the water column.  






						AGA2019 – Google Drive
					






					drive.google.com


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## Happi (21 Nov 2021)

@tiger15 over here I could stunt the plants regardless of what the KH is depending on how and what I dose. Vin also have gathered data from others and he also asked me about my KH as well. I usually keep the KH at 0-1 DKH. it is true that plant will do better in lower KH/PH and stunt less but again this doesn't Prove that all the stunting is due to high KH and nothing to do with Nutrients. for example: many people struggled with plant like Rotala Wallachi  even at low KH/PH and I would always suggest them to reduce the NO3 and dose little Urea and watch it grow like weed. 

the above picture I posted about those two difficult plants are under somewhat higher dosing, but the dosing was based on several different chemicals and ratio, if those chemicals and ratio were changed, the result was different. I would still consider these tests to be hypothesis, but the result were very consistent every time. I strongly believe the entire hobby is hypothesis based and we don't have all the answers yet but hopefully we will get there one day. am sure you have already seen another hypothesis regarding Mg:K ratio at 2:1 to solve the stunting issue, so far people reported that it works well but is it the ratio or is it something else, no one truly knows the science behind it.


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## erwin123 (22 Nov 2021)

Thanks for the AGA video - neat summary of the 55 page Rotala Kill Tank thread.
One of the things I am trying to address is L. Sphaerocarpa gradually shedding its lower leaves (yellowing/holes) even though the new growth is fine. I believe I've eliminated CO2 as an issue because I have a CO2 diffuser next to it as well as my Rotala Floridas (which are super sensitive to poor CO2) to act as 'canary in a coal mine'.  pH drop on lights on is a steady 1.1-1.2

As to why I don't want to just pump up the water column fertilisation - I also have Ammannia Pedicatella 'Golden' in the tank, which is also referred to in Vin's video as a difficult plant and I've heard from hobbyists who grow this that it prefers 'leaner' water column fertilisation.

So that leaves some sort of mobile nutrient deficiency that I hope osmocote will help with.

Anyway, I hope to report on this in a few weeks - whether the Sphaerocarpa is keeping its lower leaves or still shedding them after osmocote was introduced.


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## Ria95 (22 Nov 2021)

Aqua360 said:


> Btw just an update on this, not sure if directly responsible; but I've had a wave of shrimp deaths coinciding with the tropica root tabs floating from beneath the surface.
> 
> Can't say conclusively it's the root tabs, but I think lesson learned, if it ain't broke (water column dosing), don't fix it


I would say it's very likely. In my experience Tropica root tabs are also very rich in ammonia and quick to release it, a little less but similar to osmocote. The gel capsule is there only to help you put the grains in the substrate. It will quickly dissolve ( 1-2 days). The grains take longer to release their nutrients but do release a lot more during the first few months compared to afterwards. 

The lack of answer to Burr's question and the relative lack of key water values in the referenced thread should raise some questions. Highly suspect that in the end the very rich substrate fertilization ended up as very rich water column fertilization as previously hinted. The main difference is that the substrate is a hard to measure, hard to adjust and reset black box. We know that ammonia, potassium and phosphate are leached through the substrate. Here is an experiment showing that with osmocote IntuitiveAqua.net | Knowledge Experience Intuition


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## Aqua360 (22 Nov 2021)

Ria95 said:


> I would say it's very likely. In my experience Tropica root tabs are also very rich in ammonia and quick to release it, a little less but similar to osmocote. The gel capsule is there only to help you put the grains in the substrate. It will quickly dissolve ( 1-2 days). The grains take longer to release their nutrients but do release a lot more during the first few months compared to afterwards.
> 
> The lack of answer to Burr's question and the relative lack of key water values in the referenced thread should raise some questions. Highly suspect that in the end the very rich substrate fertilization ended up as very rich water column fertilization as previously hinted. The main difference is that the substrate is a hard to measure, hard to adjust and reset black box. We know that ammonia, potassium and phosphate are leached through the substrate. Here is an experiment showing that with osmocote IntuitiveAqua.net | Knowledge Experience Intuition



I've read further reviews that have experienced the exact same as me, devastated and angry.

Wish I'd read further into this, ultimately my fault; but for anyone reading this, I'd caution you to stock to dosing the water column, or choosing a root tab that doesn't float at the least.


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## tiger15 (22 Nov 2021)

Different root tabs have different ingredients.   You have to red the label carefully.   Seachem root tabs claimed to be nitrogen and phosphate free, and contains mainly iron and micro nutrients, so it is essentially Flourish comprehensive in slow release form. .Osmocote is originally made for terrestrial plants, and contains complete macros and micros of which nitrogen is typically ammonia or urea/ammonia.   Osmocote is an expired patent name for osmosis, a slow diffusion process  of  releasing nutrients through semi permeable capsule.  If use in moderation in a cycled tanks, the ammonia released by Osmocote and its clones will not reach toxic levels of live stock, but read the instruction carefully to avoid over dosing.


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## dw1305 (22 Nov 2021)

Hi all,


Ria95 said:


> In my experience Tropica root tabs are also very rich in ammonia and quick to release it, a little less but similar to osmocote....





Aqua360 said:


> but I've had a wave of shrimp deaths coinciding with the tropica root tabs floating from beneath the surface.





tiger15 said:


> Osmocote is originally made for terrestrial plants, and contains complete macros and micros of which nitrogen is typically ammonia or urea/ammonia.


I would be very reluctant to use a "controlled release fertiliser" as a substrate tab, too many <"unknown unknowns">. I think you are much safer dosing the water column with something like the <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 mix"> or similar. 

I would really worry about ammonia levels if you have livestock.

cheers Darrel


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## Aqua360 (22 Nov 2021)

tiger15 said:


> Different root tabs have different ingredients.   You have to red the label carefully.   Seachem root tabs claimed to be nitrogen and phosphate free, and contains mainly iron and micro nutrients, so it is essentially Flourish comprehensive in slow release form. .Osmocote is originally made for terrestrial plants, and contains complete macros and micros of which nitrogen is typically ammonia or urea/ammonia.   Osmocote is an expired patent name for osmosis, a slow diffusion process  of  releasing nutrients through semi permeable capsule.  If use in moderation in a cycled tanks, the ammonia released by Osmocote and its clones will not reach toxic levels of live stock, but read the instruction carefully to avoid over dosing.



I get that, but nowhere does it mention how aggressively they will float. I was under the assumption that even if nutrient dense, it would stay down there.


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## tiger15 (22 Nov 2021)

Aqua360 said:


> I get that, but nowhere does it mention how aggressively they will float. I was under the assumption that even if nutrient dense, it would stay down there.


It shouldn’t float if you weigh it down in heavy substrate.  What substrate do you have.  I used to insert a root tab in my potted plant filled with sand and gravel, and it stayed there for months until I repotted it.  I noticed that it had turned anaerobic and smelled sulfide.  My plant did not root well and I blamed it on anaerobic condition and stopped using.  Osmocote makes good vacation food for plant and I threw in a few in a cup to see how much is left when I returned.


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## Aqua360 (22 Nov 2021)

tiger15 said:


> It shouldn’t float if you weigh it down in heavy substrate.  What substrate do you have.  I used to insert a root tab in my potted plant filled with sand and gravel, and it stayed there for months until I repotted it.  I noticed that it had turned anaerobic and smelled sulfide.  My plant did not root well and I blamed it on anaerobic condition and stopped using.  Osmocote makes good vacation food for plant and I threw in a few in a cup to see how much is left when I returned.



I'm using tropica soil believe it or not, I made sure to submerge it deeply; but here we are


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## Happi (22 Nov 2021)

I once had an idea to combine different pellets to make up certain ratios and combination. for example you can buy them Individually such as take 10 pellet of urea and 1 pellet of P and 7 pellet of K and put them into capsule and same could be done by adding few pellets of trace/fe. i canceled the idea because these are not easy to find and they sell them in bulk. 

its all here if you are interested:








						| ICL Specialty Fertilizers
					





					icl-sf.com


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## Conort2 (22 Nov 2021)

Aqua360 said:


> but nowhere does it mention how aggressively they will float.


Stab a small hole in them with your tweezers before you bury them, this releases the air and stops them floating back up to the surface.


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## Aqua360 (22 Nov 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Stab a small hole in them with your tweezers before you bury them, this releases the air and stops them floating back up to the surface.



Definitely not using them again.


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## MichaelJ (23 Nov 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Stab a small hole in them with your tweezers before you bury them, this releases the air and stops them floating back up to the surface.


I actually did that a couple of times when using the Tropica... But really, it shouldn't be necessary to go down that path with a product that is supposed to be deployed and stay in the substrate by design.


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## Conort2 (23 Nov 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> I actually did that a couple of times when using the Tropica... But really, it shouldn't be necessary to go down that path with a product that is supposed to be deployed and stay in the substrate by design.


I agree, I’ve stopped using them and use aquario tablets instead.


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## erwin123 (23 Nov 2021)

Based on the release patterns - the first two weeks it seems that Osmocote releases more nutrients. (experiment was done with Osmocote in 40 degree water and I don't know if release patterns are similar at lower temps), but if users report Ammonia spikes happening in the first few weeks after adding Osmocote, it would seem to be consistent with these graphs

Seems like a good idea to gradually insert Osmocote at weekly intervals rather than dump everything into the tank at one shot.



			https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitstream/handle/10919/33658/etd.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


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## dw1305 (23 Nov 2021)

Hi all, 
Those are really useful graphs and illustrate the issues with potential ammonia (NH3) release. 


erwin123 said:


> the first two weeks it seems that Osmocote releases more nutrients. (experiment was done with Osmocote in 40 degree water and I don't know if release patterns are similar at lower temps),


My guess would be that release would be slightly slower, but the issue is that, because "Polymer Coated Controlled Release Fertilsers (PCF)" are designed for terrestrial plant production, the resin coating allows more <"nutrient release in warm, wet conditions">. This makes sense, because it is when the container plant can make most use of them. 

The slower release formulations have a thicker polymer coating, but will still release nutrients <"much more quickly in the aquarium"> than they would with a container plant. 

cheers Darrel


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## erwin123 (24 Nov 2021)

Today is water change day for my tank and exactly 7 days since I added Starxcote/Osmocote.
*Algae: *Amount of algae appears to be the same. Usual bit of GDA on the glass that needs to be scraped
Too early to see any difference with my Sphaerocarpa (i.e. I will need to wait for it to grow taller, trim and replant, and see whether it sheds all the bottom leaves again). A Pedicatella Golden is doing ok. Had to trim and replant some of my L. Senegalensis - hoping to see it grow 'bigger/wider' and not just thin and tall.
*TDS *before water change, the TDS is 208ppm, which is consistent with previous readings before Starxcote was added. After water change, 146ppm.
*Nitrate test *(admittedly controversial): The same yellow-orange colour I get on previous tests and not an 'angry red' which might suggest a sudden nitrate spike)
Added a few more Starxcote.

Will report back in 7 days' time.


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## Onoma1 (25 Nov 2021)

I have been using Osmocote in a dirted tank (John Innes Number 3 in plastic permeable bags capped with sand/gravel) for a few years now. I scatter a few over the 'dirt' before capping.  Plant growth is good although probably not as fast as EI and column dosing. I haven't had any major issues with algae. 

I see the  primary advantages of using it as simplicity (chuck some in and then step back from fertilisation), longevity (six months to a year)  ease (chuck some in under the sand cap) and very low cost (a 4 pound bag will last a couple of years).   I use the 'duckweed index' and observation of plants to decide when to add more or dose micros. Shrimp seem to be absolutely fine with the stuff.


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## erwin123 (8 Dec 2021)

I add osmocote/starxcote and do my weekly water change on Wednesdays
I added a small amount weekly and its been 4 weeks already. 17,24 Nov, 1, 8 Dec

The only test kits I have are a nitrate test kit and my TDS meter. Both are not showing anything out of the ordinary - the colour, and TDS meter numbers are roughly the same.

More importantly, the amount of algae is the same. I just have to scrape some off the glass each week. 😅

However, in terms of plant health, I don't see an improvement to Ludwigia Sphaerocarpa's lower leaves; but one of the stems has a new sideshoot. Hopefully the sideshoot will adapt better than the original stems. However, I have 2 new Lythraceae in the tank (the Ludwigia is not a Lythracea), Ammannia Senegelansis and Capitellata - maybe they will respond better to Starxcote  (i.e. Vin Kutty's Rotala Kill tank was all about Lythraceae...)


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## erwin123 (22 Dec 2021)

I've continued to add Starxcote weekly without any Ammonia or Nitrate spikes so far. Maybe its because I'm adding a small enough amount - between 15-20 small pellets each time.

I recently purchased >6% EDDHA-FE for some garden plants. When it comes to aquarium use, the internet says turns water pink/red/brown at 0.1ppm dosing or higher. Having handled it, I would 100% agree on the potential for staining everything 

I froze 3 small ice cubes with 0.1g of EDDHA-FE which Rotala says will give me 0.1ppm, the minimum 'water staining level'. The moment I touched the ice cubes, my hands were already 'stained' red/brown. I quickly  buried them more than 6cm into the substrate and monitored the water colour. After 6 hours, so far so good. No visible staining of the water. Of course this doesn't mean no leakage, just not enough to stain the water.  

Anyway, with this 0.1ppm added to my all-in-one Fe dose of about 0.35ppm, that brings me to 0.45ppm of Fe a week, wonder if it will make any difference


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## Happi (9 Jan 2022)

any update on this thread? lets hear how are the things going, I would assume that the test kits are maxing out on NH3/Nh4/NO3 at this point.


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## erwin123 (10 Jan 2022)

Happi said:


> any update on this thread? lets hear how are the things going, I would assume that the test kits are maxing out on NH3/Nh4/NO3 at this point.


Hi Happi, my journal is updated weekly with photos of my tank.  I haven't posted here as I have nothing new to report. Every week I have been adding Starxcote/Osmocote and EDDHA-Fe ice cubes to my substrate . TDS is stable. Nitrate test kit colour is the same (haven't tested NO3 recently since it seemed stable in the first few weeks, nowadays relying more on TDS meter to warn me if things are leaking into the water column). Tank hasn't crashed yet 😅


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## medlight (10 Jan 2022)

The use of osmocote, is more related to densely planted tanks, where leaks can be consumed, stop using it due to imbalances, also with a high temperature,Comes apart very fast


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## erwin123 (18 Jan 2022)

Since I am adding Starxcote every week, I'm exploring options with no trace elements so that I can add a mix of pellets with and without trace elements.

As Osmocote is not readily available in my country, the internet has helped me to find a locally sold product Plantacote Triple 14 which appears to be NPK only (despite the confusing small print)

According to the website, Plantacote is a Dutch company, so it should be readily available in European garden stores (since its available in Asia).






						Plantacote® Triple 14 | PLANTACOTE
					






					www.plantacote.com


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## dw1305 (18 Jan 2022)

Hi all, 


erwin123 said:


> the internet has helped me to find a locally sold product Plantacote Triple 14 which appears to be NPK only (despite the confusing small print)


I think it does <"contain micro-nutrients">. 

It is a legal requirement for Agricultural fertilisers to state the N : P :  K values with nitrogen content (as % N), <"phosphorus (as the percentage pentoxide (P2O5))"> and potassium (as potassium oxide K2O). This is a "14  : 14 : 14" formulation, so higher in phosphorus than normal mixes. 

cheers Darrel


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## erwin123 (18 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think it does <"contain micro-nutrients">.
> 
> ...



Plantacote's own website seems to imply that Triple 14 does not have micronutrients based on the composition stated?:

Plantacote Pluss - has micronutrients Plantacote Pluss | PLANTACOTE 
"100% coated controlled release fertilizer with all essential main and trace nutrients for optimal plant growth plus particularly high iron content in each granule. The nutrients are released as needed over the specified longevity depending only on the soil temperature (defined for 20-21°C). The typical, delayed initial release after 2-3 weeks makes the product very safe to crops. Plantacote® Pluss is therefore especially suited for dibbling and cultivation of seedlings."


Platntacote Tripe 14- no micronutrients  Plantacote® Triple 14 | PLANTACOTE
"100% coated controlled release fertilizer with all essential main nutrients for optimal plant growth in each granule. It features a very balanced nitrogen-phosphate-potassium ratio and is therefore usable for a wide range of horticultural crops. As Sulfate of Potash (SOP) is the only source of Potassium, the Triple 14-14-14 (SOP) is free of chloride. This makes the formulation very suited for application to young plants and propagation, where the high phosphorus level is improving the root development. The nutrients are released as needed over the specified longevity depending only on the soil temperature (defined for 20-21°C). The typical, delayed initial release after 2-3 weeks ensures a high safety to crops."


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## erwin123 (18 Jan 2022)

For comparison
Photos from local garden store FB: Bio-Flora (Singapore)Pte Ltd


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## dw1305 (18 Jan 2022)

Hi all,


erwin123 said:


> Plantacote's own website seems to imply that Triple 14 does not have micronutrients based on the composition stated?:


You are right, it does on that one, just 14 : 14 : 14 with no micro-nutrients.

cheers Darrel


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## erwin123 (18 Jan 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You are right, it does on that one, just 14 : 14 : 14 with no micro-nutrients.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks for confirming.. as the company seems to be registered in Holland, this should be more readily available in Europe compared to Osmocote. (I see Eminor in another thread asking about an osmocote clone from China)


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2022)

Hi Everyone,

Forgive me if I've overlooked something but is there not a case to be made for _not_ adding ferts to the water column? Isn't there always a risk that this could promote growth of algae and/or Cyanobacteria? In her book, Diana Walstad states* "In my opinion, the substrate - not the water - is the best place to provide plants with iron". So, perhaps, some ferts should be dosed in the water column and other(s) in the substrate? As excess/surplus iron in the water column can tip the balance in favour of algae and/or Cyanobacteria growth, isn't this worth considering?

* _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ Third Edition p 169

JPC


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## Wookii (18 Jan 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Forgive me if I've overlooked something but is there not a case to be made for _not_ adding ferts to the water column? Isn't there always a risk that this could promote growth of algae and/or Cyanobacteria? In her book, Diana Walstad states* "In my opinion, the substrate - not the water - is the best place to provide plants with iron". So, perhaps, some ferts should be dosed in the water column and other(s) in the substrate? As excess/surplus iron in the water column can tip the balance in favour of algae and/or Cyanobacteria growth, isn't this worth considering?
> 
> ...



If that were the approach to be taken how would one get Iron to epiphytes or floating plants?

If excess iron in the water column caused algae, then any dosing regime (whether EI, lean or otherwise) would lead to algae, since they will all result in some excess in the water column which will always be sufficient for algae.


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## sparkyweasel (18 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Plantacote's own website seems to imply that Triple 14 does not have micronutrients


But;


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2022)

Wookii said:


> If that were the approach to be taken how would one get Iron to epiphytes or floating plants?


Hi @Wookii 

I'd be prepared not to have floating plants and/or epiphytes but your point is entirely valid. I forgot to mention this - so, thanks for correcting my oversight. I guess Diana Walstad doesn't grow either of these plant categories, either.

JPC


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## John q (18 Jan 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> I guess Diana Walstad doesn't grow either of these plant categories, either.



She does but quite openly admits some of the floating plants die out over time (she states this could be because they don't get enough iron or light?)



jaypeecee said:


> Isn't there always a risk that this could promote growth of algae and/or Cyanobacteria?


There could well be a risk, I just don't think we can outrightly claim iron is the sole contributor towards algae. Many people, including myself have dosed inexcess of 0.5ppm of iron and haven't been plagued with cyanobacteria, so clearly to state iron in the water column causes this isn't true. There's lots of factors at play here, iron is just one of the many players that result in algal growth, but I'm guessing you know that already jpc.


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## jaypeecee (18 Jan 2022)

John q said:


> There could well be a risk, I just don't think we can outrightly claim iron is the sole contributor towards algae. Many people, including myself have dosed inexcess of 0.5ppm of iron and haven't been plagued with cyanobacteria, so clearly to state iron in the water column causes this isn't true. There's lots of factors at play here, iron is just one of the many players that result in algal growth, but I'm guessing you know that already jpc.


Hi @John q

Good to be 'talking' with you again.

You are correct in saying the above. Iron is by no means the only nutrient that contributes to cyano or algae growth. But, being a somewhat fickle nutrient, it can tip the balance. I say 'fickle' as its solubility is variable, it's affected by lighting, etc.

JPC


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## Happi (18 Jan 2022)

*@*jaypeecee
*if your main source of Iron is in form of Fe2+ then this is easily prone to Cyanobacteria and other type of algae especially if you were overdosing it, sometime BBA turn green under this scenario.  if its in Fe3+ form then algae have a hard time using this type of Iron, plant also have to put out lot of energy to use this type of Iron.*


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## erwin123 (19 Jan 2022)

Just to add, one of the supposed benefits of substrate feeding is "targeted feeding", just in case you have plants that grow like weeds in response to EI dosing which will increase the maintenance burden (as the weeds may shade other plants). I think Tom Barr has said on a number of occasions that he had to remove certain species of plants from his tanks because they grew too fast under EI. Of course, he may have been showing off a bit when he said Pantanal was a weed that he had to remove from his tank 😅

I'm actually having a growing "too fast problem" with Rotala Blood Red. The interesting thing about Blood Red is that it puts its effort into growing vertically, whereas L. Super Red had a lot more sideshoots, so as least Blood Red is easy to trim when overgrown. Super Red is a tangled mess of sideshoots if overgrown 😂

Ideally I would like to trim every 2 weeks, and certainly not every 5 days, hopefully reducing water column dosing and not givng the Blood Reds Osmocote are slowing them down.


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## jaypeecee (19 Jan 2022)

Happi said:


> ...if its in Fe3+ form then algae have a hard time using this type of Iron, plant also have to put out lot of energy to use this type of Iron.


Hi @Happi 

I'm not sure about algae but Cyanobacteria employ something known as siderophores to chelate very low concentrations of bioavailable iron. It's no wonder that Cyano are difficult to eradicate. And that's just one of their party tricks!

JPC


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## Yugang (20 Jan 2022)

I stopped using root tabs (first commercial products, later Osmocote clone). 

There is definitely a feel good factor adding all these fancy powders and root tabs to substrates. Feels really high tech, and money spent must yield some reward.
But ...

Substrate will deplete, and limit the time that the tank is in optimal condition -  unlike sufficient water column dosing
Once a substrate is dosed there is no way back, to take it out, no way to finetune -  unlike optimised water column dosing
How substrate dosing potentially adds value, and associated risks, seems not well understood - unlike inexpensive water column dosing
Hence...
- Is there any well documented case for substrate doing, other than as a compensation mechanism for poor water column dosing?

This is merely to support what seems to be almost a consensus. I am just interested if there is any clear case for the substrate dosing, that I may have missed?


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## erwin123 (20 Jan 2022)

Yugang said:


> I stopped using root tabs (first commercial products, later Osmocote clone).
> 
> There is definitely a feel good factor adding all these fancy powders and root tabs to substrates. Feels really high tech, and money spent must yield some reward.
> But ...
> ...







the substrate in my tank is 10 years old and a lot of it has turned to dust as the photo shows.  So I am giving osmocote/starxcote a try. The substrate is 12cm deep already so I can't just pour on a fresh layer


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## Yugang (20 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> the substrate in my tank is 10 years old and a lot of it has turned to dust as the photo shows.  So I am giving osmocote/starxcote a try. The substrate is 12cm deep already so I can't just pour on a fresh layer


Not trying to corner you Erwin, but just interested what problem it would solve for your soil and your plants?


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