# Classic mistake of incorrectly place plants!



## papa_c (11 Dec 2020)

Makes me laugh everything I walk past it!

Had an invitro pot of Blyxa Japonica that looked ropey as hell, thought what the heck I'll chuck it in and see what happens.

3 months later this is the result, I really have to move them but they look so happy!

Interestingly the plants on the right hand side look like a different strain. Not as green as the other and look almost variegated. But were from the same 1 2 grow pot.

BIG trim coming up this weekend, H. Pina is going crazy and growing like a weed!


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## Ags11 (12 Dec 2020)

Well, having happy plants is the first essential step to a beautiful tank...


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## Null Zero (14 Dec 2020)

How on earth did you manage to grow Hyro. Pinnatifida so well?!!!  Please share your tank paramters, lighting, substrate and Co2 specs. I would kill to be able to grow HP like you have done. It always dies on me no matter what i do.   

Not exaggerating when I say that is the lushest Hygro. Pinnatifida I have seen!


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## Zeus. (14 Dec 2020)

Just shows you what can be done when you hit the sweat spot 



Null Zero said:


> Please share your tank paramters, lighting, substrate and Co2 specs


I would be interested also , plus your local water report if your not using RO


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## papa_c (14 Dec 2020)

Substrate is 2 year old Tropica soil powder.

Lights are home built LED using cree 5630, and dimmable  meanwell power supply, design is a direct rip off of Twinstar!

Filtration 2 x Eheim pro3 e's

Co2 distribution through twin home built reactors. On at 10.00am, 1.3 point drop lights on at 3.00 off at 10.00

Tap water in Cambridgeshire is on the hard side  very little Mg and 120ppm Ca, with 30ppm nitrates.  Dosing EI level salts I have always struggled for the last 2 years in getting the balance right and growth. 

3 months ago i switched to RO remineralised to 35ppm Ca and 14ppm Mg. 

I currently does EI to the following:
N 30ppm
K 65ppm
P 15ppm

Micros to standard EI level with added 0.6ppm per week of DPTA iron.

Tank really exploded when changing to RO, but close up H. Pinna still suffers with pin holes on older leaves despite the high levels of K. Next trim session I plan to remove all old leaves and observe what happens.

When changing to RO I also ditched my sprays bars and switched to lily pipes.

My current nemesis is green thread algae in the mini Christmas moss, and the ability to kill cherry shrimp at genocidal proportions!


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## papa_c (14 Dec 2020)

Only wish I had the artistic ability of many others on UKAPS and could visualise what the end result will look like!


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## Null Zero (15 Dec 2020)

papa_c said:


> Substrate is 2 year old Tropica soil powder.
> 
> Lights are home built LED using cree 5630, and dimmable  meanwell power supply, design is a direct rip off of Twinstar!
> 
> ...


Awesome!

I have a feeling its the RO water that is enabling H.pinnatifida to grow like a weed. It is one of the more difficult plants to grow, even very experienced hobbyists struggle with it.  You have very large specimens, which is impressive to say the least. 

Unfortunately, with the size of the tanks i have, RO is not really a viable option. As someone working in the sustainability space, i am finding it hard to justify the amounts of wasted water using an RO unit.  

Based on anecdotal evidence from numerous hobbyists, RO water might make the difference, especially in growing the more difficult plants like H. Pinnatifida.  

Anyway, great job. Your scape has a wild untamed look to it which works well.  No need to change things around for now.


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2020)

Null Zero said:


> Awesome!
> 
> I have a feeling its the RO water that is enabling H.pinnatifida to grow like a weed. It is one of the more difficult plants to grow, even very experienced hobbyists struggle with it.  You have very large specimens, which is impressive to say the least.
> 
> ...



I don't think Pinnatifida is particularly difficult to grow - give it CO2 and it grows like a weed. I have in my tank and it grows faster than anything else in there. I even put some cuttings in my low light/low tech tank, and they're growing fast in there too, and that is very hard water and minimal ferts.

There are a fair few tanks on here that have loads of Pinna growth in hard water:









						AS900- restart and rethink.
					

Tank is looking great and the shrimp coming on great, i need to trim my moss ass its getting very thick so think i will trim and glue on further down   Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk



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						Channelling my inner Filipe - Christmas Corys
					

Wow Sammy it has really taken shape looks good   Looking good.   Looks great, taken shape really nicely.   Stunning, love this tank :) great job   Thanks guys! Finally coming together, really happy with it at the moment! Really hoping the MC grows this time! I'll leave you with another photo of...



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Blyxa Japonica on the other hand is a tricky plant to grow well, and that is fantastic lush growth on those plants @papa_c - is that a Cork Screw Sword (Helanthium Bolivianum 'Vesuvius') on the right hand side? It looks great.
​


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## Zeus. (15 Dec 2020)

Thanks for that @papa_c , been struggling with H.Pin for years with hard water and pinholes, moving soon and RO looking very likely as new house has bore hole for water


papa_c said:


> I currently does EI to the following:
> N 30ppm
> K 65ppm
> P 15ppm



Thats pretty high levels
N 30ppm ~ NO3 120ppm
P 15ppm ~ PO4 45ppm

I dont think even @ceg4048 dosed PO4 at as high a level as that


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## papa_c (15 Dec 2020)

Zeus. said:


> N 30ppm ~ NO3 120ppm
> P 15ppm ~ PO4 45ppm



Hey Zeus, good spot!

Dose levels should have read

NO3 at 30ppm (not N)
PO4 at 15ppm (not P)


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## papa_c (15 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> Cork Screw Sword (Helanthium Bolivianum 'Vesuvius'



Yes H. Vesuvius, difficult to contain once it gets going, but really beautiful.

Righthand Side view


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2020)

papa_c said:


> Yes H. Vesuvius, difficult to contain once it gets going, but really beautiful.
> 
> Righthand Side view
> 
> View attachment 159060



It does - it looks fantastic! I’m not sure if you’re in the UK, but if you are and you ever look to get rid of some of those runners, let me know!


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## SRP3006 (15 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> I don't think Pinnatifida is particularly difficult to grow - give it CO2 and it grows like a weed. I have in my tank and it grows faster than anything else in there. I even put some cuttings in my low light/low tech tank, and they're growing fast in there too, and that is very hard water and minimal ferts.
> 
> There are a fair few tanks on here that have loads of Pinna growth in hard water:
> 
> ...


Mine is growing like a weed, but my water is nowhere near as hard as some on here (180ppm). It's growing everywhere and I'm having to trim it constantly to try and keep it semi nice looking. I'm not sure it's 100% healthy, but hasn't got any holes as yet.

I've just planted some blyxa japonica, what makes you say that's a hard plant to grow? I've never grown it before so just curious.


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## Zeus. (15 Dec 2020)

papa_c said:


> My current nemesis is green thread algae


Do you have any Amanos? they soon clear it up, one of my tanks does have amanos and gets hair algae, I just move the plant as they are all potted to other tank and hair algae is gone in 24hrs


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2020)

SRP3006 said:


> Mine is growing like a weed, but my water is nowhere near as hard as some on here (180ppm). It's growing everywhere and I'm having to trim it constantly to try and keep it semi nice looking. I'm not sure it's 100% healthy, but hasn't got any holes as yet.
> 
> I've just planted some blyxa japonica, what makes you say that's a hard plant to grow? I've never grown it before so just curious.



It’s softer than mine for sure - your GH must still be in double digits though? It’s a great looking example of just how much Pinna can grow, which is why I link to it.

On the Blyxa I’ve just read of quite a few people struggling with it - it seems to need a lot of light -  when I had it, it just faded away to nothing unfortunately.


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## SRP3006 (15 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> It’s softer than mine for sure - your GH must still be in double digits though? It’s a great looking example of just how much Pinna can grow, which is why I link to it.
> 
> On the Blyxa I’ve just read of quite a few people struggling with it - it seems to need a lot of light - when I had it, it just faded away to nothing unfortunately.



To be honest I couldn't tell you, don't trust test kits and never really looked into it.

Thank you 

Aren't you running a chihiros wrgb11? Which is putting out more light than my twinstar? Doesn't bode well for me then. My Amanos generally strip a plant to nothing as soon as it starts to look semi unhappy


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## papa_c (15 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> look to get rid of some of those runners, let me know!


Hey wookii, yup live in Cambridgeshire, I'll be trimming very shortly and will let you know...post is crazy slow at the moment so might be better to wait till after Christmas to post them


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## papa_c (15 Dec 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Do you have any Amanos



Had them in the past and like the cherry shrimp they didn't last, might invest in some more if they have a taste for the green thread algae.

How many would you put in an EA 900?


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2020)

SRP3006 said:


> To be honest I couldn't tell you, don't trust test kits and never really looked into it.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Aren't you running a chihiros wrgb11? Which is putting out more light than my twinstar? Doesn't bode well for me then. My Amanos generally strip a plant to nothing as soon as it starts to look semi unhappy



To be fair I probably shaded it too much, plus I suspect your fingers are a lot greener than my black ones, so I’m sure you’ll be fine mate.


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## Wookii (15 Dec 2020)

papa_c said:


> Hey wookii, yup live in Cambridgeshire, I'll be trimming very shortly and will let you know...post is crazy slow at the moment so might be better to wait till after Christmas to post them



Thanks mate, I’ll drop you a PM.


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## Null Zero (16 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> I don't think Pinnatifida is particularly difficult to grow - give it CO2 and it grows like a weed. I have in my tank and it grows faster than anything else in there. I even put some cuttings in my low light/low tech tank, and they're growing fast in there too, and that is very hard water and minimal ferts.
> 
> There are a fair few tanks on here that have loads of Pinna growth in hard water:
> 
> ...


Thanks...  For some reason, I simply cannot grow H. pinnatifida, no matter what I do. High tech, low tech, high light, low light, rich substrate, high CO2.. Nothing works for me with this plant.  My water is super hard though, with significant calcium residue on the glass on evaporation. I can literally harvest CaCO3 from my water if I want!    Very calcium rich water but deficient in Mg, which adds to my woes.  I need to dose copious amounts of MgSO4 just to ensure my plants get enough Fe. Hard water means I have to use Fe- EDDHA as my main Fe source.  On the plus side,  Vals grow like there is no tomorrow in my tank!  I literally have to keep trimming and removing larger leaves to ensure the tank is not choked. I have also grown some really uncommon plants like Centella asiatica (Asiatic Pennywort) really well, probably because they like hard water.

However, going by anecdotal evidence, it is definitely easier to grow this in softer water with generous NPK fertilization regimes.  I have also read elsewhere that this plant grows better as an epiphyte as opposed to being planted in the substrate like other Hygro varieties.

Great to see HP grow well in hard water, gives me hope that one day i will be able to grow a jungle of the stuff. 

In my experience,  certain plants are way easier to grow in soft water.  A friend of mine has a small 20 gallon tank where he uses RO+UV treated water and he is able to grow plants like Eriocaulons, Toninas, Syngonathus without CO2 in a non enriched substrate.  These plants do not last a week in my tank.


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## Wookii (16 Dec 2020)

Null Zero said:


> Thanks...  For some reason, I simply cannot grow H. pinnatifida, no matter what I do. High tech, low tech, high light, low light, rich substrate, high CO2.. Nothing works for me with this plant.  My water is super hard though, with significant calcium residue on the glass on evaporation. I can literally harvest CaCO3 from my water if I want!    Very calcium rich water but deficient in Mg, which adds to my woes.  I need to dose copious amounts of MgSO4 just to ensure my plants get enough Fe. Hard water means I have to use Fe- EDDHA as my main Fe source.  On the plus side,  Vals grow like there is no tomorrow in my tank!  I literally have to keep trimming and removing larger leaves to ensure the tank is not choked. I have also grown some really uncommon plants like Centella asiatica (Asiatic Pennywort) really well, probably because they like hard water.



Sorry to hear you're having problems growing it - what TDS is your water coming out at? If you don't have access to RO, are you not able to harvest rainwater and cut it with your tap water? Also, are you dosing full EI?

Have you tried growing it out from cuttings from an established plants from someone elses tank? I have read that is doesn't grow very well in low tech, but the cuttings I transferred to my hard water low tech tank were good thick established stems from my high tech - so that could be why they have continued to do well. I'm not sure if I had used in-vitro plants, or emersed grown plants that had to transition, straight into the low tech, that they would have done so well.



Null Zero said:


> However, going by anecdotal evidence, it is definitely easier to grow this in softer water with generous NPK fertilization regimes.  I have also read elsewhere that this plant grows better as an epiphyte as opposed to being planted in the substrate like other Hygro varieties.
> 
> Great to see HP grow well in hard water, gives me hope that one day i will be able to grow a jungle of the stuff.
> 
> In my experience,  certain plants are way easier to grow in soft water.  A friend of mine has a small 20 gallon tank where he uses RO+UV treated water and he is able to grow plants like Eriocaulons, Toninas, Syngonathus without CO2 in a non enriched substrate.  These plants do not last a week in my tank.



I agree, soft water definitely seems to help. Although a lot of people have great tanks in hard water, and the vast majority of plants seem to do fine in hard water, soft water always appears to make things a little easier for the aquarist from my casual observations - particularly with the  chelation issues you mention.  You have listed three good examples of plants that definitely do better in soft water. I've only ever attempted Tonina, and the stems either melted in short order or sat there in relative stasis.  Those soft water stems are fairly easy to substitute for other more tolerant plants ones though.


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## Null Zero (16 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> Sorry to hear you're having problems growing it - what TDS is your water coming out at? If you don't have access to RO, are you not able to harvest rainwater and cut it with your tap water? Also, are you dosing full EI?
> 
> Have you tried growing it out from cuttings from an established plants from someone elses tank? I have read that is doesn't grow very well in low tech, but the cuttings I transferred to my hard water low tech tank were good thick established stems from my high tech - so that could be why they have continued to do well. I'm not sure if I had used in-vitro plants, or emersed grown plants that had to transition, straight into the low tech, that they would have done so well.
> 
> ...



TDS varies between 100-120 in the tank after a few days post a water change, but is around 150 off the tap (Municipal Supply Water).   I do have access to an RO unit for drinking water, but i find it a bit hard to justify the volumes of wasted water, given the fact that I work in the sustainability sector.  Rainwater is not possible in this season, plus New Delhi - where i am currently based - is super polluted so even during the monsoons collecting rainwater is a pretty risky proposition! 

Most of the H.pinnatifida i have attempted have been emersed specimens grown terrestrially in soil. Commercial ornamental plant nurseries here grow almost all of their plants emersed (except pure aquatics like Vals, Cabombas, Ceratophyllums, Floaters etc) due to much faster growth rates and resilience during shipping, so the transition happens inside the tank.  Mostly the HP i have tried does manage to transition but eventually gets holes and withers away.   Perhaps if I attempt to procure some submerged specimens from fellow hobbyists, I might fare better.  It does grow natively here in India, not in the Northern parts of the country though. 

Yep Toninas and Eriocaulons rarely last in hard water.  They come from extremely acidic environments, as low as 3 to 3.5 PH with almost zero minerals in the water.  So pretty too. Also cannot grow many Rotalas well due to the same reason.


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## Wookii (16 Dec 2020)

Null Zero said:


> TDS varies between 100-120 in the tank after a few days post a water change, but is around 150 off the tap (Municipal Supply Water).   I do have access to an RO unit for drinking water, but i find it a bit hard to justify the volumes of wasted water, given the fact that I work in the sustainability sector.  Rainwater is not possible in this season, plus New Delhi - where i am currently based - is super polluted so even during the monsoons collecting rainwater is a pretty risky proposition!



I would suggest your tap water isn't particularly hard then if those values are correct, it's a lot softer than most. To give you an idea, my tap water (which varies in hardness throughout the year) currently comes out of the tap at 275ppm. My high tech, which uses RO but is being buffered (annoyingly) by loads of CaCO3 from the Seiryu stone, averages 200ppm.



Null Zero said:


> Most of the H.pinnatifida i have attempted have been emersed specimens grown terrestrially in soil. Commercial ornamental plant nurseries here grow almost all of their plants emersed (except pure aquatics like Vals, Cabombas, Ceratophyllums, Floaters etc) due to much faster growth rates and resilience during shipping, so the transition happens inside the tank.  Mostly the HP i have tried does manage to transition but eventually gets holes and withers away.   Perhaps if I attempt to procure some submerged specimens from fellow hobbyists, I might fare better.  It does grow natively here in India, not in the Northern parts of the country though.



I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that your issues are fert related. What is your dosing regime?



Null Zero said:


> Yep Toninas and Eriocaulons rarely last in hard water.  They come from extremely acidic environments, as low as 3 to 3.5 PH with almost zero minerals in the water.  So pretty too. Also cannot grow many Rotalas well due to the same reason.



You really shouldn't be having issues with the more common Rotala's - they seem to do fine in hard water - many examples on this forum. Which ones have you struggled with?

EDIT: Apologies to @papa_c for taking this thread off at a tangent. It might be worth you starting a thread @Null Zero  - there are lots of knowledgeable people on this forum, more experienced than me that should be able to help you via a dedicated thread if you post up all your tank details.


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## Doug (18 Dec 2020)

I used to be anal about religiously testing my water and then I stopped a couple of years ago... 

I know go on how the plants are looking and growing, how the fish are behaving/ eat , cleanliness of water etc. Seems to work for me.

I have good filtration, 50% water change every week, use tap water ( with aqua safe, CO2 injection and daily ferts regime.


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## papa_c (18 Dec 2020)

Wookii said:


> Apologies to @papa_c for taking this thread



No problem at all, it's a community forum so there is no monopoly on ownership!


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## Paulthewitt (12 Jan 2021)

That blyxa looks amazing - if you need to get rid of any, let me know - I would be very happy to pay postage plus a little to get some healthy and grown plants. I also had some ropey blyxa from 1-2 grow. But i think it is just too far gone. Even if not, only maybe 3 plants from 2 pots remain... so I have little hope of getting the impact I was after.


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## Magoo (13 Jan 2021)

I've never had success with H. pinnatifida planted in the substrate that being said it grows like a weed when I plant it like an epiphyte.


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## papa_c (6 Feb 2021)

Time for another pruning session, previously tidied up the Blyxa cuttings which are currently growing out in a separate 30cm cube, it is amazing the root structure they put out.

H. Vesuvius is growing crazy and there will be plenty trimmings available aftwards. Little bit of BBA on the slow growing Buces will tackle that with a bit of Glute spot dosing.

Trying to get on top green thread algae, only way I am beating it is to remove as much as possible pre water change, and dose AlgExit after water change. Nothing else seems to put a dent in it.


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## papa_c (6 Feb 2021)

Mini Christmas moss could do with a hair cut, but I'm not sure what else is growing in there!


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## Andy Pierce (6 Feb 2021)

papa_c said:


> I currently does EI to the following:
> NO3 30ppm
> K 65ppm
> PO4 15ppm


Your tank looks amazing!  For your EI scheme, are these your weekly targets and if so are you splitting these over 3 doses per week?  Are you doing 50% weekly water changes?  I ask because 65ppm K is well over EI targets I've seen elsewhere as is the 15ppm PO4.  Not that I ever argue with the scoreboard because success speaks for itself, but I would like to understand how you decided to aim for these values.


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## papa_c (6 Feb 2021)

I've been tinkering with the weekly ppm since posting that. I had a tank full of H.pinatifidia and was dosing that to stop pin holes in older leaves. This has all been stripped out and my current dosing levels are below macros and micros alternate days 3 times a week each





I don't dose any Magnesium in the mixture as I add this all at water change time. Water change is RO water remineralised to CA 35pm and Mg to 14 ppm. Religiously changing about 75% weekly without fail. Concentrating on getting as much debris from the substrate, it is crazy how much accumulates on a weekly basis.


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