# Calcium Deficiency? White snail shells & shrimp



## AshRolls (13 Feb 2014)

I live in a very soft water area here in Cornwall so I use Seachem Equiliberium to remineralise the GH of tap water. Testing the water the carbonate hardness sits at around 1 dKH (possibly more possibly less I don't trust the kits at all), TDS is 130. The water company adds an alkaline to the supply so my pH is around 7.6, I understand that pH swings aren't as important in soft water tanks but that soft water can quickly become acidic with no buffer.

My snails have been fine for the last 8 months but over the last month I have noticed that their shells have gone almost totally white. Searching around the web I see this is most likely due to a calcium deficiency. I'm not sure why this would occur after all this time though so have a few questions

1) My Ludwigia Repens stems seem to have gone on a bonkers growth spurt. Do plants strip KH from the water, and if so could this be why there is suddenly less carbonate hardness for the snails?

2) Do water parameters in winter change with all the recent rainfall, could there be naturally softer water coming out of the taps?

I also fished out a dead cherry shrimp the other night. It may just be coincidence and the shrimp died of natural causes, but it's in the back of my mind that something in the tank has gone out of balance.

Should I consider trying to add some extra carbonate hardness to the water as well? If so what would be the best way in my tank that already has high alkalinity from the water company additives?


----------



## Edvet (13 Feb 2014)

Add some crushed shells?


----------



## AshRolls (13 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> Add some crushed shells?


 

Wouldn't this raise the alkalinity as well? Is it even possible to raise the KH without raising the alkalinity? Considering I'm already at 7.6 this is a concern unless I have misunderstood the chemistry here.


----------



## justissaayman (13 Feb 2014)

Is that 7.6 from tap and after being left for 24 hours to let the buffers wear off?


----------



## AshRolls (13 Feb 2014)

justissaayman said:


> Is that 7.6 from tap and after being left for 24 hours to let the buffers wear off?


 

Both, the buffers don't wear off so the tap water remains at 7.6 even when left to stand (or in tank).

Water quality report from SWW states Min 7.30, Mean 7.71, Max 7.90.




> pH value or hydrogen ion concentration indicates the degree of acidity of the water. pH 7 is neutral, below 7 indicates acidity and above 7 indicates alkalinity. A low pH may result in pipe corrosion. An alkali may be added during treatment to minimise this effect.


 
So it doesn't actually state what method they use to increase alkalinity, assuming they even do and the reservoir that supplies me isn't naturally at this level


----------



## justissaayman (13 Feb 2014)

Wow, this is a weird problem to have. Crushed coral will up the PH... you could try a calcium only suppliment, like the new Fluval stuff

I stand corrected


----------



## Sacha (13 Feb 2014)

Chuck a cuttlefish bone into the tank. 

You can buy it from pet stores as it is food for pet birds


----------



## Alastair (13 Feb 2014)

If your water is too acidic it does have this effect on snails.  I get it all the time. Its a bonus for me. 
Your tap water may be 7.6 but what is it in the tank??? Like stated the best way is to add calcium carbonate cuttle bone scraping crushed shells etc but this will change the water chemistry so youd need to make sure other inhabitants are ok with the change


----------



## AshRolls (13 Feb 2014)

Alastair said:


> If your water is too acidic it does have this effect on snails. I get it all the time. Its a bonus for me.
> Your tap water may be 7.6 but what is it in the tank??? Like stated the best way is to add calcium carbonate cuttle bone scraping crushed shells etc but this will change the water chemistry so youd need to make sure other inhabitants are ok with the change


 
I also wondered if the tank was acidic eating at the shells because I have driftwood, leaf litter etc in there which could drop it from the tannins, but I tested the tank to check for a ph drop and it is still sitting at 7.6 (give or take a bit for test kit inaccuracy).


----------



## Edvet (13 Feb 2014)

When did you calibrate  your pH apparatus last time? How do you measure it?


----------



## AshRolls (13 Feb 2014)

Edvet said:


> When did you calibrate your pH apparatus last time? How do you measure it?


 

I use an API Master Test Kit so no calibration involved. I know that they are fairly inaccurate but since the kit results agree with the official figures the water company supplied me, using their very expensive top range equipment, it gives me confidence that I'm at least getting a reasonably reliable figure.

By reasonably reliable figure I mean that I don't think it's an acidicity problem causing the white shells but a calcium deficiency.

What I want to avoid is causing a knock on alkalinity problem by increasing the carbonate hardness! Crushed shell and cuttlebone seem that they would cause this.


----------



## Edvet (13 Feb 2014)

Personaly i don't think alkalinity is a problem, except for a few plants and fish breeding.


----------



## dw1305 (13 Feb 2014)

Hi all, 





AshRolls said:


> My snails have been fine for the last 8 months but over the last month I have noticed that their shells have gone almost totally white. Searching around the web I see this is most likely due to a calcium deficiency.





AshRolls said:


> I also wondered if the tank was acidic eating at the shells


 It is both of these, I'm like Alastair I have the same problem using rain-water, some of the tanks I can keep Red Ramshorn, Tadpole snails (_Physella acuta_) and MTS in, but they all show some degree of shell attrition (white older whorls) and the shells are paper thin, some tanks I can just keep MTS in, although all the older whorls wear away and the snails never get very large, and one tank (the one with _Parosphromenus_) doesn't have enough bases and won't support any snails, even MTS. Your water will be even softer in the winter, purely because of the higher rain-fall.  





AshRolls said:


> The water company adds an alkaline to the supply so my pH is around 7.6, I understand that pH swings aren't as important in soft water tanks but that soft water can quickly become acidic with no buffer.


 In your tap water the pH is raised with NaOH, so this adds alkalinity "bases" (OH-) and Na+ ions, but it doesn't add any buffering, dKH (carbonates) or dGH (divalent cations, Ca++).  I'd treat your pH measurement with a pinch of salt, the fact that the shells are white shows that at least for some of the time your water is acidic, and is dissolving HCO3- from the shells.  

I like the cuttle bone addition idea.  Your snails need both calcium (Ca++) and carbonate (2HCO3), they can get some of this from food (broccoli etc) or grazing on limestone "rock", ideally in the more soluble biogenic aragonite form. This is where the Cuttle bone or coral gravel comes in. Oyster shell chick grit is another good cheap option.

cheers Darrel


----------



## AshRolls (13 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> I'd treat your pH measurement with a pinch of salt, the fact that the shells are white shows that at least for some of the time your water is acidic, and is dissolving HCO3- from the shells.


 
Ah ha a vital clue! I hadn't thought about it this way in that the tank water must be acidic (at times) in order to dissolve existing shell that has built up.

I wonder what is causing that temporary drop, possibly the leaf litter I threw in recently.

I was hoping you would jump into this thread Darrel after reading some of your past posts on the matter, so thanks. (ps the frogbit you sent me is still going great thanks!)


----------



## dw1305 (14 Feb 2014)

H all,





AshRolls said:


> the frogbit you sent me is still going great thanks!


 I love Amazon Frogbit.

cheers Darrel


----------



## AshRolls (14 Feb 2014)

*edit* didn't mean to quote my own post


----------



## Cherry (29 Mar 2014)

Sacha said:


> Chuck a cuttlefish bone into the tank.
> 
> You can buy it from pet stores as it is food for pet birds


newbie shrimp keeper  question - how do you know how much cuttlefish to chuck in? (just ordered some)- just cycling my new little shrimp tank and trying to work out what I need to do differently(if anything) to what I do for my large tank ie what I need to test for/add. My water here is really soft - add bicarb to my big tank -but dont really test for anything in there anymore (except CO2) My amano shrimp do fine in there but smaller shrimp are just expensive fish food


----------



## Sacha (31 Mar 2014)

I would put a whole bone in. It's not to dissolve calcium into the water, it's for the shrimp/ snails to actually eat the calcium off the surface of the bone.


----------



## Cherry (31 Mar 2014)

Thanks Sacha - now I know! - wont put it all in as the tank is small - but will add some to big tank too!


----------

