# Too Much Light.... REALLY!?



## Aeropars (12 Oct 2015)

Hi All,

Since setting up my tank months ago with 4 x TMC Grobeam 600's over a Juwel 180L I've been battling hard to get the Lighting vs CO2 balance right along with my EI dosing.

Initially I started off with all 4 lights set to 30% brightness for 5 hours a day but it melted a lot of my plants eventually even though I have good flow and good CO2 (Green drop checker and a full 1 point drop in PH).

So I gradually dropped the lighting levels and I'm currently running all lights at 8% brightness and this is now at the point where plants have stopped melting rapidly and I "think" the plants I have left are stable. the problem is that I'm not seeing any real growth and the stem plants are not putting out any roots at the base.

The lights are mounted only a few CM above the water which is why I have 4 of the Growbeams as that amount is needed to cover the substrate. I understand that this is massive overkill and they will never get put on 100% brightness however I didn't expect them to only get up to 8% brightness. This is my first foray into LED and I never had such problems using the old 4 x T8 tubes of old.

Can anyone give me some advice as to how I can get better growth without melting the plants like I did before? I'm reluctant to invest in more plants until I can get the growth nailed on. I would assume increasing the lighting might be the answer?

I should add that I I'm filtering with an Eheim Pro 3 which has over 10x tank turnover per hour and also supplemented by a mid sized Koralia.


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## Paulo Soares (12 Oct 2015)

Evening,

My modest opinion:

Who told you or where you find that light is the cause itself for the Melt?

From what i´ve read you turn from T8 to led technology. So it was quite a change to plants. 

But my friend the main issue is named Lumens.
How many? And how close to the bottom? 

Probably you need to elevate the Grobeam for not being so close taking consideration the Lumens capacity.

CO2 and Ei is no issue. As long you have your drop with a certified 4dkh solution and kept it green or almost yellow you´ll be on target. 

And other thing.. you don´t need a one unit drop in your PH. I know it´s something very propagated here in this forum. You drop one unit but you don´t mention your KH. Take that under consideration cause regarding your KH you´ll probably are putting to mcuh CO2 or in the worst case not enough.
So in my opinion forget that and regard only your drop cheker. I can point you my way. 
I have a 1 BPS in my CO2 injection and it turns on 4 hours before lights. Buy the time the lights went on my drop cheker is allready almost yellow. And after my Co2 turns off one hour before lights went off too. 
By this method i inject CO2 in a calm way, didn´t stress the fish and my PH is more atable also. Is more reliable than pushing hard to have a one unit drop. 

"Eí" is no secret also. A simple test for Kno3 and Po4 at the end of the week and you´ll know if you´re on it. 
Yes i know many people says is nonsense to test Ei but i do it only to have a reference.
One thing is for shure.. if you´re not dosing enough the test will point it. At list the lack or the excess of it te test will tell you.

Lights on by 7 hours. Regard that photoperiod doesn´t start imediately as lights turn on but probably a hour before. So with 7 hour lighting you´ll have a 6 hour photoperiod.

If making this and filter cleaning routine you have waht is needed. At list the principals.

If still melt or non growing continues than is something else to take care.

Big Hug


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## dw1305 (12 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 
I'd up the light intensity. 

I follow a different approach (and I'm strictly low tech.), but I let the amount of light (PAR) control the amount of growth. I don't really care what light I use, or how much PAR it produces. 

Both my 2' tanks have a lot of low tech. plants, 2 x 24W T5 lights on a 12 hour day, without added CO2 and with very low nutrients. This tank is in a N. facing window. This photo was in 2012, all that has changed since is the _Anubias_ now fills up 3/4 of the tank, and unfortunately I no longer have the _<"Dicrossus maculatus">._




 

If you have a floating plant it takes CO2 out of the equation, and you can use it to "dim" the light intensity for you. I use Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) as my duckweed of choice, but _Salvinia_ or _Pistia_ will do equally well. 

cheers Darrel


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## Aeropars (12 Oct 2015)

Hi Darrel. Thats interesting as I have only today been reading about your duckweed test. I assume they feed only from the water column then?

I'm sure i could squeeze in a bit more CO2 but I'm not exactly what I'd call high tech. When you say you let the PAR dictate the growth rate, how are you able to do that? When I first started the tank, I was heavy on the CO2 and double dosed IE so theoretically, the plants had everything they needed to thrive. I assume the light was too intense for the level of CO2 which caused the melt. I assume that you are talking low levels of light when you let the light dictate the growth rate?

@ Paulo - I'm doing everything you've said and certainly acknowledge the principles. I once had a thriving tank under T8's but this LED lark seems to be much more powerful without actually making the tank look brighter.


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## xim (12 Oct 2015)

Seeing that you've had some experience (from the t8 set), I'm not sure if I need to ask this.
Is the tank newly setup, not just an old tank getting new lighting?
If so, could it be that your LED light was already good but the new plants just needed to adjust to the new environment,
and by the time you lowered your light intensity, they already had finished the process?

This is not limited to plants that are grown emersed (above water) and have to adjust to aquatic
environment but also true aquatic plants that can't grow on land such as Blyxa. They could melt
when introduced in a new environment.


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## ajm83 (12 Oct 2015)

dw1305 said:


> I use Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) as my duckweed of choice, but _Salvinia_ or _Pistia_ will do equally well.


I used to use frogbit for this, but it keeps getting holes in it. I think it's from condensation dripping from the lid. Do you happen to know if either salvinia or pistia would be more resistant to the burn?
Thanks.


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## pepedopolous (12 Oct 2015)

So your plants aren't melting but very slow growth. Just increase the light a little to say 15%, see what happens.

P


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## Andy Thurston (12 Oct 2015)

Are these growbeam tiles or aqua bars? either way 4 running at 30% sounds about right and if your still getting melt then more co2 and/or flow is where you should be looking if your dosing EI properly


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## Aeropars (12 Oct 2015)

xim said:


> Seeing that you've had some experience (from the t8 set), I'm not sure if I need to ask this.
> Is the tank newly setup, not just an old tank getting new lighting?
> If so, could it be that your LED light was already good but the new plants just needed to adjust to the new environment,
> and by the time you lowered your light intensity, they already had finished the process?
> ...


I should have said really. Its an old tank, newly set up after a house move where the lighting ballast got broke in the process. All new plants however the tank was running, un-planted, for 6 months housing fish only.


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## Aeropars (12 Oct 2015)

Big clown said:


> Are these growbeam tiles or aqua bars? either way 4 running at 30% sounds about right and if your still getting melt then more co2 and/or flow is where you should be looking if your dosing EI properly


They are the bars. I've upped it to 15% and I'll see how I go. I'm going to get some test plants at the weekend and see how they go as an indicator.


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## xim (12 Oct 2015)

xim said:


> …
> If so, could it be that your LED light was already good but the new plants just needed to adjust to the new environment,
> and by the time you lowered your light intensity, they already had finished the process?
> …



I typed it wrong. The "if so" actually meant "if it's newly setup".



Aeropars said:


> They are the bars. I've upped it to 15% and I'll see how I go. I'm going to get some test plants at the weekend and see how they go as an indicator.



So yes, I think upping it is a good idea.


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## dw1305 (12 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 





Aeropars said:


> I assume they feed only from the water column then?


Yes they do, but it wasn't that which initially drew my interest, it was purely access to aerial CO2 (~400ppm). I actually started off with _Lemna minor_ as a floater and _Cyperus alternatifolius_ as an emergent (which would have advantages in terms of increasing REDOX values within the substrate), but I soon realised that most people didn't have open-topped tanks, and were ill-disposed towards Duckweed. I also found that _Lemna_ doesn't enjoy soft, nutrient poor water and goes yellow which defeats the object of using its colour as an indicator of nutrient status.  





ajm83 said:


> I used to use frogbit for this, but it keeps getting holes in it. I think it's from condensation dripping from the lid. Do you happen to know if either salvinia or pistia would be more resistant to the burn?


 I've done better with _Limnobium_ than _Pistia_, but _Salvinia_ is pretty bullet-proof. I've got plenty spare of all three of them. If the young leaves are yellow and then develop brown dots? that sounds like it may be iron deficiency rather than drip, which is possible even with EI if you have hard water and EDTA as your iron source. 

cheers Darrel


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## Bacms (12 Oct 2015)

dw1305 said:


> I've done better with _Limnobium_ than _Pistia_, but _Salvinia_ is pretty bullet-proof. I've got plenty spare of all three of them. If the young leaves are yellow and then develop brown dots? that sounds like it may be iron deficiency rather than drip, which is possible even with EI if you have hard water and EDTA as your iron source.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I have seen this mentioned a few times what is the best iron source for hard water then? I am in Cambridge and we get pretty much liquid rock and doing EI with chelated traces so should I be overdosing micros?


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 





Bacms said:


> I have seen this mentioned a few times what is the best iron source for hard water then? I am in Cambridge and we get pretty much liquid rock and doing EI with chelated traces so should I be overdosing micros?


 FeDTPA is a better iron source for very hard water.




Somewhere like Cambridge will have its water coming from a chalk aquifer, and chalk is 100% CaCO3, so it won't supply any magnesium (Mg).  In hard water a lot of insoluble compounds (Iron hydroxides, calcium phosphate) will form, and these make nutrients like Fe+++ & PO4--- unavailable.

I wouldn't up the input of the other micro elements, but it might be worth looking at your magnesium (Mg) input. <"A high Ca++:Mg++ ratio"> can interfere with the uptake of magnesium and iron, and possibly potassium (K+) as well.

cheers Darrel


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## Bacms (13 Oct 2015)

Thank you Darrel very informative post as usual. Is there any good way of accessing the levels of Mg2+? I measured KH/GH at the start of the tank and got something like kH12/gH18 the problem is those values are way outside the printed calibration curve of the API test kit so no idea if the linearity still holds outside the printed range. For that reason I am not dosing Mg2+ with my EI but from your post it seems I should probably start? Either that or reduce hardness with RO I assume. 

I feel I am derailing the thread a bit sorry for that @Aeropars.


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2015)

Hi all,





Bacms said:


> Is there any good way of accessing the levels of Mg2+? I measured KH/GH at the start of the tank and got something like kH12/gH18 the problem is those values are way outside the printed calibration curve of the API test kit so no idea if the linearity still holds outside the printed range


 No the dGH/dKH are expressed as CaCO3, so you don't know whether they are calcium or magnesium ions. In this case, because of the geology you can be pretty certain that they are all Ca++.  





Bacms said:


> For that reason I am not dosing Mg2+ with my EI but from your post it seems I should probably start?


Bingo, that is very likely your issue. 

Because magnesium is mobile within the plant you should get a quick response with greening of the new leaves within a couple of days of starting adding it.  

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2015)

Bacms said:


> For that reason I am not dosing Mg2+ with my EI


Why oh why oh why do people insist in rolling their own version of EI then wonder why they are having issues ??? 

The normal reason is "my test kit says my water is high nitrates, so I am not dosing KNO3 and just can't understand why my plants are wasting away...." 

MgSO4 is the cheapest EI ingredient, you can get 25Kg for £20 delivered on Ebay, so no reason to not dose.


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## Bacms (13 Oct 2015)

ian_m said:


> Why oh why oh why do people insist in rolling their own version of EI then wonder why they are having issues ???
> 
> The normal reason is "my test kit says my water is high nitrates, so I am not dosing KNO3 and just can't understand why my plants are wasting away...."
> 
> MgSO4 is the cheapest EI ingredient, you can get 25Kg for £20 delivered on Ebay, so no reason to not dose.


Well I was just following the instructions on the pack saying I might not need it in very hard water regions. Plus the idea of adding even more Mg contributing to an increase in hard water was something that didn't appeal to me. Will now add it and see how the plants react. 

I am also having problems with surface foam any idea what causes it? Seems worst with surface agitation 


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## Bacms (13 Oct 2015)

Cheers Darrel you may have just saved my tank. Will start dosing it and see the response I am also getting pin holes on some anubias which as far as I understand could be related to K+ deficiency and pale new leaves on them as well which I assume were normal but from your posts they probably are Mg2+ deficiency. Brilliant will have to read the dGH/dKH as I obviously got it completely wrong


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## ajm83 (13 Oct 2015)

Darrel, thanks for the detailed answers regarding surface plants/iron.


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2015)

Bacms said:


> Plus the idea of adding even more Mg contributing to an increase in hard water


Not sure adding MgSO4 affects the dGH/dKH as that is to do with carbonates.

I am sure there is nowhere in the UK that has significant hardness due to Mg. Might be wrong. There certainly is in US and Italy as reported by UKAPS members.


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## Aeropars (13 Oct 2015)

So I'm confused. I've been dosing EI with the following chemicles:

Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)

This is based on James Planted Tank site (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm)

I live in the Midlands and have typically hard water from Severn Trent Water. Are you saying that I should be dosing MGS04 (Epsom Salts) as part of my EI regime? If so, how do I know how much to dose?


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## Bacms (13 Oct 2015)

Aeropars said:


> So I'm confused. I've been dosing EI with the following chemicles:
> 
> Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
> Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)
> ...



If you read their guide they also suggest you may need to add epson salts if your tap water is low on Mg2+ which from the previous posts suggest that's the case with the majority of England. You can use the http://www.aquariumcalculators.com/ to calculate the amounts you need. 

@ian_m unless I again got it totally wrong water hardness is a measure of divalent cations on the water, mainly Ca2+ and Mg2+ so I would assume Epson salt contribute to this. If I am not mistaken you can add sodium bicarbonate to raise Kh and Epson salts to raise Gh only


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2015)

Bacms said:


> @ian_m unless I again got it totally wrong water hardness is a measure of divalent cations on the water, mainly Ca2+ and Mg2+ so I would assume Epson salt contribute to this. If I am not mistaken you can add sodium bicarbonate to raise Kh and Epson salts to raise Gh only


You are right, which is why I said, not sure. Just checked and you are right GH (general hardness) is the presence of Mg (and Ca), so adding MgSO4 will increase GH (and not affect KH, carbonate hardness).

However clearly plants need Mg so adding MgSO4 is a must (in UK).


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2015)

Aeropars said:


> Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
> Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)
> This is based on James Planted Tank site (http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm)


But this also says add MgSO4, if your tap water is low in Mg. How did you know your tap water Mg level ?


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## Aeropars (13 Oct 2015)

Hi Ian,

Simply put, I didn't know. The chemistry aspects of all this goes well above my head so I have been running only on the advice of others. I'll take a look at adding MGS04 in my next batch tonight.


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## ian_m (13 Oct 2015)

Hi Aeropars,

just mix as in here.
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html

I have accidentally dosed 1litre of double strength EI mixture into 180litres due to pump timer miss-setting and ended up with 300ppm NO3, 80ppm PO4 and 90ppm Mg and noticed no change to fish behaviour, no algae and more annoyingly no change to plants....


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 





Bacms said:


> Well I was just following the instructions on the pack saying I might not need it in very hard water regions.


 Yes, it is a difference between the UK and USA, and it is just down to geology. The UK aquifers are mostly limestones, and the Chalk (Cretaceous), Jurassic age (Oolite etc) and Carboniferous age limestones were laid down in deep ocean basins, before being compressed (so basically having the water squeezed out of them) deep underground. 

North America is different in that the central plains (all the way from the Gulf of Mexico to Canada) are part of a stable land mass that has been there for billions of years (<the "craton">), but which at various times has been inundated by sea-water to form an "epicratonic sea", a sea which has repeatedly evaporated and re-formed. 

In sea water magnesium is the second most common cation after sodium (Na),  and magnesium carbonate (MgCO3) is more soluble than calcium carbonate (CaCO3). The end result of this is that as the sea evaporates a crust of magnesium carbonate has calcium carbonate deposit on it and over geological time some of the magnesium migrates into the limestone to form <"Dolomite"> (same thing happened around the Mediterranean sea as it has evaporated and re-formed). 

Water from a dolomite aquifer is rich in magnesium, while water from a limestone aquifer is practically devoid of it.  

cheers Darrel


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## Paulo Soares (13 Oct 2015)

One curious thing i´d like to understand. What is the optimal concentration of Mganesium in a fresh water tank? How many PPM?
And how can we measure it if there aren´t any tests to do it?
JBL as one CA /MG test sewt for marine tanks. Not fresh.

So.. what figures of CA and MG are we talking about for a fresh water tank?
And  how to measure it?
If i want do dose separately as i do with the other salts how do i manage that?

I have a bottle of each salt of KNO3 / PO4 and KCl where 1 ml of each one is equal to 1 PPM.

I can make one too of CA and another of MG but how much should i dose each every day? 
I was looking in the web for optimal PPM in a fresh tank but i can´t find and not even a test for it.

Best regards.


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## Bacms (13 Oct 2015)

Paulo Soares said:


> One curious thing i´d like to understand. What is the optimal concentration of Mganesium in a fresh water tank? How many PPM?
> And how can we measure it if there aren´t any tests to do it?
> JBL as one CA /MG test sewt for marine tanks. Not fresh.
> 
> ...



Afaik there isn't an ideal KH/GH for plants, most people aim for the KH/GH they need to keep the fish they want or just use whatever comes out of the tap. Of course there are exceptions to this rules and there are a few plants that prefer slightly acidic conditions and some that require hard water like Valisneria. The best way to achieve a known KH/GH is simply to start with RO water which as 0KH/0GH and add add sodium bicarbonate and epson salts (not sure on the amounts but a google search should tell you) or commercial available buffers for this purpose.


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 





Paulo Soares said:


> How many PPM?


Five ppm Mg should be plenty, but if you have 10 ppm it won't matter. 

If you have hard water, then plants that naturally come from hard water are pretty good at taking up the cations other than Ca++ that they need,  as well as using HCO3- as a carbon source etc. 

cheers Darrel


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## Aeropars (9 Dec 2015)

Hi all.

Its been some time since I've taken your advice and to be honest, I'm not really sure how things are going. I've re-scaped the tank after putting in Tropical Plant substrate capped with Unipac sand. I've also added some additional plants which I got from some of the guys in the for sale section. Admittedly, I have had some CO2 issues due to a broken bubble counter which spring a leak without being touched.

That I have observed is that some of the plants which were in the old set-up are still not growing. In particular I can see that my hairgrass has not spread one bit and my Hydrocotyle Tripartita hasn't grown at all. Some of the old stems I had are showing some signs of growing however there has also been some deterioration of the plants which I added. I'm unsure as to whether this was because of being chilled in transit. One thing I have seen is my angel fish nibbling at some plants, particularly the P. Helferi whcih makes me suspect that the buds from the H. Tripartita could well be eaten before they can sprout leafs.

So to summarise what I have at the moment....

- 4 x Growbeam 600's which are 8cm form the water surface running at 10%
- Dosing EI, now with MGS04
- CO2 is pressurised and diffused into the water column. Half is sucked into the filter, the rest is blown around the tank. Drop checker is getting to lime green for lights on and I record a 0.9ph drop. (PH settles at 6.8)

What would you do form this point? Start to increase lighting again or stay put for the time being?


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## ian_m (9 Dec 2015)

Aeropars said:


> One thing I have seen is my angel fish nibbling at some plants


You will be surprised about fish nibbling plants. I grew a monster carpet of HC & Glosso, but slowly over time the HC shrunk to nothing  and the Glosso stopped sprouting and ended up as just stalks. Then by careful observation and taking pictures just before lights off and just after lights on, I observed plants were suffering physical damage due to fish nibbling. Main culprits were my clown loaches and Siamese Algae Eaters, who for at least a year or two (enough to get decent plant mass) had shown no interest in eating the plants. They were eating the roots of HC and any new shoots on the Glosso. What made them start eating plants, I don't know, under feeding ?

However once all these naughty fish were removed, the Glosso recovered well, but HC was terminal and never recovered.


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## Aeropars (9 Dec 2015)

I think that might explain some of it then although I'm not seeing that on the hairgrass. That's is just stubbornly sitting there dormant! On closer inspection, I do have some chunks taken out of the leafs of some of the larger stem plants too. Anyone want a pair of angel fish?!


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## Sk3lly (9 Dec 2015)

Aeropars i had observed similar issues within my own low tech tank. Ok my anubias and crypts grow just fine, as do the buces. As for the hairgrass and certain hygro stem plants they neither died nor did they grow. This in my opinion is not right!! Everything should grow!!!!

So in very small stages i would up the light intensity. Maybe a few percent at a time. I would observe the plant changes, co2 drop colour and ph levels to see if it needed altering. If all was ok and no signs of algae after a few weeks, up the percentage again and observe.

Ive gone from running my light at 50% up to 80% so far.

Ok my crypts melted a few times but have always bounced back. Better colouration on buces. Hairgrass is now starting to send out runners which is what i want. My co2 had to be upped to counter the increased lighting and i also dose slightly higher EI amounts. I also added an extra 50% water change a week. I know in large tanks this is not always possible.

I think planted tank keeping is all about experimenting and learning from your choices.

As long as changes are made slowly and one at a time, it allows you to observe


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## Aeropars (9 Dec 2015)

Hi Sk3lly,

Its reassuring to see someone who has also had these problems, and more importantly came out the other side with good progress! This week is the 3rd week since the tank was re-scaped so I think now I have my CO2 stable and at the right level I will increase the lighting again and see how that goes. I can't believe the difference between LED and T8 lighting. I thought it would be a doddle but its almost like I've had to learn the hobby from scratch again!


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## alto (9 Dec 2015)

Assuming your tank is a Juwel Rio 180
100 cm x 40 cm x 50cm high, I suspect your PAR levels at substrate are very low (these are not high initensity LED's so depth penetration is limited) ie begin increasing intensity on those Growbeams!

If you want to be conservative, you can up the intensity on Gb 1 & 3, leaving 2 & 4 at 10%, then next day 1 & 3 10%, upping 2 & 4  etc
OR as you don't mention photoperiod, split the increased light over all 4 Gb's during the single photoperiod (not sure what sort of controller you have) 

I'd've likely started these lights at 40% initially, then adjusted from there ... based upon your pH drop & drop checker, your CO2 should not be an issue.

The angels may have to go, or plants may outgrow the Angel Effect 
Also add a spirulina food to their diet (eg, spirulina brine shrimp)


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## Bacms (9 Dec 2015)

Also assuming ramp is linear I have 2x25WT8 and 2xGrobeams at 20% at the moment on a Juwel Vision 180, so I should be getting the same light as from your 4xGrobeam + 50W from the T8. From my experience tank health improved when I added the Grobeam to the T8s. Although I can't say for sure because I also introduced a cleaning crew of shrimps around the same time


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## Aeropars (9 Dec 2015)

Hi Alto.

Yes, its a Rio 180 and my photo period is 8.5 hours with a 30 minute ramp up and down. I'm using two controllers (the two way version)

The odd thing is, when I first got these I did run them at 40% and everything melted even though my CO2 was good. I have to say I wasn't dosing MGS04 at that point though.

So it looks like the consensus is to increase the light?


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## Bacms (9 Dec 2015)

Aeropars said:


> Hi Alto.
> 
> Yes, its a Rio 180 and my photo period is 8.5 hours with a 30 minute ramp up and down. I'm using two controllers (the two way version)
> 
> ...


I would say so just be patient increase like 1% every couple of days or so. That is what I did when I added my LEDs


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## alto (10 Dec 2015)

Given the controllers, you might also consider adding "noonday bursts" & see how that goes - just make sure that plants are "awake" & good CO2 levels before the "burst" occurs.


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## Paulo Soares (10 Dec 2015)

Co:2  Half is sucked into the filter


Aeropars said:


> CO2 is pressurised and diffused into the water column. Half is sucked into the filter, the rest is blown around the tank.



Stop doing this.
Not good.. not good at all.
First if you have the filter Inflow above the difuser you´re forcing the pressure inside it and in all Co2 circuit. The gaz come out from the difuser by the stabilized pressure in it and from what comes from the Fire Extinguisher or other bottle. If you have a Inflow making suction brute force from the outside you can imagine what´s going on in the circuit. One of these days you may find your difuser broken all over the tank.

Maybe your issue with the co2 bubble counter was due to this. (?) The bubble counter is made to work in a one way only. And that way is the pressure coming from the FE. Not an external suction from the above part of it.

I´m not shure if i´m explaining this well but i think you´ll get it.
I´ve seen to many times people in this forum recomending to to do this but it´s a damn mistake.

Other thing: Co2 is a gaz. What do you thing could happen to your filter by adding and adding this gaz? The filter is like a closed box. What happens to a closed box if we star to filled it up with gaz over and over? At some point do you imagine what could happen?

Well.. don´t.

Finally.. your problems in your tank with plants. The same is saying with everything.
Since CO2 is a macro nutrient what could be the consequences to the nitro bacteria in the filter to an extremely exposure and concentration of this Co2 among them?

I let this to your reflexion.

Best regards.


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## Aeropars (10 Dec 2015)

alto said:


> Given the controllers, you might also consider adding "noonday bursts" & see how that goes - just make sure that plants are "awake" & good CO2 levels before the "burst" occurs.



Hi Alto - Not sure what you mean by this?

@Paulo - The diffuser is not affected by any suction of the filter as its not in contact with the filter inlet. The reason the bubbles get sucked in is because of the swirling flow of the water. I think the problem with the bubble counter is that it is a poor quality product, especially since I had one dead on arrival.


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## Bacms (11 Dec 2015)

Alto is referring to have a burst of light in the middle of the photo period for one or two hours to stimulate non hence the name 

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## alto (11 Dec 2015)

Check that your CO2 levels are adequate before the "burst" photoperiod begins, also look at plants as some will open their leaf structure for "day", further some of these plants will begin to "close" that leaf structure after 5-6 hours - not necessarily based only upon your lighting period, but also ambient light.


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## Aeropars (4 Jan 2016)

Hi Guys,

Not good news to report I'm afraid as for some reason my CO2 Art regulator stopped allowing gas through thus reducing my bobble rate. I think its because my working pressure was set to be quite low so as the pressure in the bottle slightly dropped, so did the bubble rate. I'm now at the point with the CO2 where the fish are just starting to gasp at the surface so I can't physically put any more CO2 in without gassing them.

I've seen very little growth in the plants which I haven't degraded so I think its time to up the lighting intensity again. My crypts have stayed static, as have a couple of stem plants and still no movement from my hairgrass. Some others have just decided to shed leafs and I've only got the tops with leafs still on. Occasionally I have had a couple with a black stem which I understand is CO2 related but hopefully the CO2 is now stable and I shouldn't see this any more.

I'm kind of surprised though as the tank actually looks well light to the naked eye. I guess time will tell after I up the lighting by another 10%. On the up-side though, no algae!


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## rebel (4 Jan 2016)

Would be great to see ongoing photo updates!


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## Bacms (6 Jan 2016)

I am sorry to hear about your problems but cannot point out how much I admire your persistence and the fact you haven't thrown the towel. Fingers crossed things will start to improve from now one. And I agree a photo would be a good thing at this point eve if just for a future reference so you can compare when things get better


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## Aeropars (6 Jan 2016)

Thanks for the messages. I've taken some a full tank shot as of yesterday so will upload that to document the progress. 

I know I can grow plants, its just the switch to LED has threw me off and I need to understand LED better to know how it reacts with the plants.


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## Julian (6 Jan 2016)

Aeropars, you aren't alone mate. I've been trying to grow a carpet of HC in my tank for over a year with minimal success. 

Like you, I'm using TMC lights but the Mini 400 tile version. When I started out a year ago, I think I had them on something like 70%. I'm convinced that there is nothing wrong with any other parameter in my tank and I suspect it's all to do with having too much light. Every month I'll clean out the dead plants, buy some new ones and drop the lights by another 10% in an attempt to find that sweet spot.

Every time I try, I wash off the invitro jelly (gently using cold water), plant them into small clumps and for the first week or 2 everything seems fine - there isn't much growth but the plants look happy enough. Week 3 and 4 is usually where it starts to go bad, the plants turn a darker shade of green and if anything have grown upwards rather than spreading. I know people will say this is down to poor CO2, but I've literally had 5 drop checkers all at substrate level across the front of the tank which are all yellow, fish looking a little stressed too - I don't see how there couldn't be enough CO2. The plants gently sway, and I can see microbubbles of CO2 being caught on the leafs, but eventually they lose all of their colour and start to go transparent and die, regardless of how much fertiliser I add and how many water changes I do. It's a really disheartening hobby sometimes!

I have a new batch of HC coming which I'm going to try and grow with my lights at 10%, this will be the last batch I buy before I rip the whole tank apart and possibly give up, or at least take a break from the hobby.

I don't know, maybe it's nothing to do with the lights, maybe I've got a bad batch of ADA substrate or maybe it's just some weird chemical in my tap water. 

Anyway, keep going, persistence is key with anything.


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## Aeropars (6 Jan 2016)

I agree that its got to be something to do with hitting that lighting sweet spot. Particularly on my tank, all the equipment is the same as when I was running a healthy and thriving tank. Only difference is the switch from 4x T8's to the LED fixtures. 

The thing that's totally different is how direct the LEDs lights are compared to the all encompassing glow of the T8. this could well be why its so alien to understand what's going on. My CO2 cant really get any higher either given fish are bordering on stressed.

I feel your pain!


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## rebel (6 Jan 2016)

Yes, continue to take detailed notes and keep photos. You can learn heaps from this approach.


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## Aeropars (7 Jan 2016)

Here you go. Here's a picture of it as of the 5th. I've just received a load of Blyxa which I added and I've ordered some more plants form Aqua Essentials so as soon as they are in I'll baseline the progress with another pic. We can then see what's deteriorating and/or progressing.

DSC_0417 
by Lee Parsons, on Flickr


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## rebel (7 Jan 2016)

Thanks for the pic. How come your powerhead and outflow are opposing each other? it's better if they work together rather than each other.


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## aaron.c (7 Jan 2016)

The power head might be better at the bottom of the tank, to encourage a cyclical flow.

At the moment I suspect it is competing with the spray bar.

However, as you say, it was fine with the old lights.  

I switched to 2 x Grobeam 600 and I have had not much luck since.

I still have the original hood and T5s and might be tempted to switch back to them if I don't have better success soon

Aaron


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## Aeropars (7 Jan 2016)

Hi Chaps.

The Koralia position compliments the flow of the tank. I get a full on swirl effect in the tank. I had to move it higher in the tank as it was blowing the sand all over the place with how I had it before. It all seems to be stable at present though. Getting good light green on drop checkers at both sides of the tank.


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## aaron.c (7 Jan 2016)

Coolio 

It might be worth dropping a dry dose of EI powder in the tank to see how it flows?   Might highlight an issue.

From the picture it looks like a lot of the Co2 is at the top of the tank, but obviously it's hard to confirm that with a photo, you will know much better from seeing it in person.


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## Bacms (7 Jan 2016)

The flow pattern does definitely not look right. It would be much better to have the spray bar across the back of the tank with the power head underneath. Given the size of the tank you will get almost no flow on the right side of the tank where your plants are. That may explain some of the issues you are having I would also be tempted to move the CO2 to the same side where plants are. Before moving to an in-line diffuser I was using the same diffuser as you as I noticed greater growth on the plants on the direct flow from the diffuser


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## Aeropars (11 Jan 2016)

Hi guys.

Believe me, there is very good flow on the right hand side of the tank with CO2 being blown down to the substrate. I'm getting an almost yellow drop checker on both sides of the tank. While it may look like its conflicting flow, that koralia is pulling water massively from the left of the tank, onto the right and then blowing it back across to the left. The whole tank is swirling in a vortex motion with bubbles going into most places.

I've actually had some progress with a battered stem of P.Helferi putting out a new shoot. Looks like there is progress!


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## Aeropars (11 Jan 2016)

OK, benchmark time!
Added Some M. Monte Carlo, C. Helferi and H. Tripartita. I mived a few things about and i noticed the Blyxa I added previously has shown sign of new root growth. some of the other plants have also shown signs of growth as well as root growth. Lets see how this goes!

Photo taken directly after planting and doing a water change so apologies for the fizzy look!


160111-20.27.32(Lee) by Lee Parsons, on Flickr


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## Aeropars (12 Jan 2016)

Hi Guys. 

I'm going to stop updating this thread with images and continue with my journal for all pics. I'll post back here if I have any further problems and to update the settings I am using so as to help other people.

Lee


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