# Cruelty - Bettas



## Nat N (7 Mar 2013)

Hi all,
I thought I post this here as this is the best forum I know... Yesterday I was looking throught things on Ebay and discovered that some seller was offering a betta in a jar... well, maximum 1 litre one, I could guess, fancy shape jar where you could not fit a filter or even a smallest heater... The listing has ended today but here's the link:
 Fish Bowl With Siamese Fighter Fish Betta Aquarium Tropical | eBay
I sent a message to the seller.
Quote me saying:
<<
Hi,
Don't you know that this method of keeping bettas you advertising is pure cruelty? Bettas must not be kept this way. It is a shame that you are selling the poor fish like this...
>>
Unquote
I was not expecting a reply and certainly I was not expecting a polite reply but received this.
Quote:
<<
Hi

No we change the water every day, but I see what you mean...
>>
Unquote

As I said, the listing has ended today - they did not remove it after my message - and I am just wondering if they re-list the poor betta...
The reason I opted to posting to the seller as this is not the first time I see cruelty to Bettas on Ebay. A few months back, some other seller actually took the fish OUT of water to put him next to a measuring tape to show his size!!!!!!
That time I did try to find a way to complain to Ebay - to no avail... I also emailed the emage of that poor Betta to Practical Fishkeeping and to my disappointment have not recieved a single reply (I emailed to all contact emails I could find). I am not sure if Practical Fishkeeping staff thought I was some sort of a "weirdo" or what but I was disappointed... Hence I sort of took the matter in my own hands this time.
By the way, both of the sellers on Ebay were actually in the UK - you would expect more of ethics from those sellers, won't you?
I have a suggestion: I believe that many people here which are in the UK have an Ebay account. Doing a search from time to time on bettas may show you some more cruel practices. As Ebay does not have any way to report such incidents, perhaps, not only I but other people would start sending messages to irresponsible (to say the least) sellers on Ebay? Do you think this will make any difference?
P.S. and edit: Sorry for rambling a bit - I just got really furious and emotional...


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## Martin cape (7 Mar 2013)

Agree with everything you say. Going to send an email now.


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## Gill (7 Mar 2013)

The listing has already been reported to ebay by many of the members over on the betta splendens facebook group.


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## Nat N (7 Mar 2013)

Thanks Martin - I am starting to feel I am not alone here... Bettas are the most "real pets" fish with wonderful personalities, like "cats and dogs" of the water world. I sort of understand the tradition in the Far East, but civilized Europeans treating the fish like they are not living things appalls me... I have been known rescuing badly treated bettas (as much as my tanks space and compatibility allows), sometimes nursing them to health - and getting the most amasing results: my bettas KNOW me, are GLAD to see me and literally are the most intelligent fish I know... It is a pity the animal cruelty does not seem to be including cruelty to the most intelligent fish...


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## Nat N (7 Mar 2013)

Thanks Gill - this is really good to know. One question: how do you report to Ebay on such matter? In the time of finding the betta getting measured out of the water, I could not find any any way on Ebay to report this...


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## Gill (7 Mar 2013)

The practice of taking a betta out of the water for measuring is over 10+ years old. Have a look at some of the listings on aquabid, alot of fish are taken out of the water for measuring to show the total length. Some leave them in a bag with a little water, but most take out of the water to measure.
There is an option to report somewhere, will have a look.
Betta Super delta | Halfmoon gene | Full Red Butterfly | eBay | Awesome Screenshot


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## Martin cape (7 Mar 2013)

I've always wanted a Betta. I just don't know how they would cope with EI, CO2, weekly water changes. Plus Cherry Barbs and little Rainbow Fish.


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## Nat N (7 Mar 2013)

It does not matter to me if the practice of measuring bettas is 10+ years old. It does not make it it humane or acceptable. I always think of "little creatures" as a "projection" of human beings - if we don't like being treated in any particular way, why on earth we have an authority to treat other creatures in the way we would not like to be treated ourselves?! "simples", really, simple ethics... We are all biological "entities", and being "smarter" is not the reason of feeling superior or being cruel. (small note: some so called "human beings" are much enferior in comparison to the animal world - this is a fact!). You said that this Ebay listing was actually reported to Ebay. Personally, I did not find a way to do so so I would love to know how this is done....


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## Nat N (7 Mar 2013)

Hi Martin,
Bettas will be just fine with EI - as long as your main water change water (tap or whatever) is neutral or soft or even just slightly on a hard side (if you have really hard water from the mains, this is a bit of a challenge but otherwise it is not a problem). Little Rainbowfish should not be a problem either - are they Thredfins? or Neon Ranbows? all of these are fine. Bigger Ranbows (as I have in one of the tanks) are not a threat but they are very quick feeders and it would be difficult to feed other fish - they would not stand a chance to get some food. Cherry barbs - I did not keep any myself (although they do seem attractive). If they are not too fast at "scooping" the food than in it is possible to keep a betta with them - other "parameters" (e.g. size, behaviour, type of fins, etc). seem to be fine as far as I know from reading about them. Alternatively, a 20 litres small project planted tank with a couple of Amano shrimps, a Nerite snail would be a heaven for a betta... Just an internal filter and low tech approach will do just fine...


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## Gill (7 Mar 2013)

Nat N said:


> You said that this Ebay listing was actually reported to Ebay. Personally, I did not find a way to do so so I would love to know how this is done....


 


Here, just above the item number in dark blue lettering.
Fish Bowl With Siamese Fighter Fish Betta Aquarium Tropical | eBay | Awesome Screenshot


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## Nat N (8 Mar 2013)

Gill said:


> Here, just above the item number in dark blue lettering. Fish Bowl With Siamese Fighter Fish Betta Aquarium Tropical | eBay | Awesome Screenshot


Yeah, I know this one. This is the one I tried to use first time - did not succeed as the option offered for complaining were "Item is not as described", etc., etc. - nothing on the topic. I even rang Ebay then... Never mind. Perhaps they have some more relevant options now. I must admit, I did not check this time remembering spending hours not achieving anything. I will try this option again if anything else turns up on UK Ebay... Thanks anyway.


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## fish fodder (8 Mar 2013)

Unfortunately bettas seem to have drawn the short straw when it comes to their accommodation, in the far east where they are big business they are bred in their thousands and all held in jars or similar. Even lfs hold them in tiny tanks albeit (some) filtered. It's no different to having a red tailed cat in a 2 foot tank. I have been keeping fish for well over 20 years and as far back as I can remember I have seen bettas in jars. Yes it may look inhumane and cruel but think of where many wild type bettas come from? Small, dirty, oxygen depleted pools. I wouldn't personally keep any fish in such a small space but I can't see it being detrimental long term if it's a temporary measure.


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## Nat N (8 Mar 2013)

fish fodder said:


> Unfortunately bettas seem to have drawn the short straw when it comes to their accommodation, in the far east where they are big business they are bred in their thousands and all held in jars or similar. Even lfs hold them in tiny tanks albeit (some) filtered. It's no different to having a red tailed cat in a 2 foot tank. I have been keeping fish for well over 20 years and as far back as I can remember I have seen bettas in jars. Yes it may look inhumane and cruel but think of where many wild type bettas come from? Small, dirty, oxygen depleted pools. I wouldn't personally keep any fish in such a small space but I can't see it being detrimental long term if it's a temporary measure.


Yes, this is all true but it does not mean this is correct way. Wild bettas, indeed, come from "tiny pools" but these pools are in fact part of a much wider ecosystem which speads vast and in total provides much better filtration, water circulation, etc., than in any tiny jars offered by human beings. Rice paddies are vast stretches of water - so I disagree on the fact that keeping Bettas in tiny jars "replicates" their natural invironment. I also said before in this post that I kind of understand cultural differences and sort of understand the way they are kept in the Far East but this fact does not make an excuse for allegedly civilized Europeans to follow it. Do we follow a tradition of mass starved population, cruel wars and etc.? My point is - please, put a line between what is done in Far East and what is the right way.


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## fish fodder (9 Mar 2013)

I didn't say it replicates their natural habitat in any way.... What fish lives in a glass box, whatever it's size in the wild? And you can't say "sort of understand" why they are kept the way they are in the Far East and frown upon it in Europe, It's one or the other in my opinion. And Europe is no more civilised than the Far East. Maybe a bit more developed.....


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## fish fodder (9 Mar 2013)

Just to add, we are all guilty of cruelty to a certain extent. Keeping fish in an enclosed aquarium, the fact that the majority of us do the best we can to make it as natural as is possible goes some way to make it "ok"


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (9 Mar 2013)

fish fodder said:


> Just to add, we are all guilty of cruelty to a certain extent. Keeping fish in an enclosed aquarium, the fact that the majority of us do the best we can to make it as natural as is possible goes some way to make it "ok"



Or.. Do you look at it from a viewpoint of the fish were in a shop full to the hilt with fish, and we saved  them and improved their quality of life considerably.

One of us cannot change the industry. If one of us decides 'fish are better off in the wild' we don't bring the industry to its knees. 

We have fish and plants because we   Are inquisitive creatures, and thus love to watch things develop and grow, along with our own skills.

I, for one, know I'll never be truly 'satisfied' with my aquascaping or even Joinery skills, i just keep on striving


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## fish fodder (9 Mar 2013)

I  keep fish because it is one of the few animals that we can keep in captivity and can recreate as close as possible to a natural habitat. The fact still remains that they are in captivity, we just have to make it as "pleasurable" for our pets as possible.


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## sanj (10 Mar 2013)

I do not necesarily agree that keeping fish in aquariums is cruel. I think many people are cruel in the way they neglect the needs of thier fish or house them inappropriately. However I do not think fish think like we do. They hunger, they mate, the have a degree of interaction within their environment and socially within thier species group. If one can provide for thier needs in captivity, they may well have a better more healthy and long lived life than in the wild.


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## Nat N (10 Mar 2013)

fish fodder said:


> I keep fish because it is one of the few animals that we can keep in captivity and can recreate as close as possible to a natural habitat. The fact still remains that they are in captivity, we just have to make it as "pleasurable" for our pets as possible.


EXACTLY!! I totally agree with this and cannot quite understand you "arguing" with me earlier. The thing is that the concept of the "natural habitat" for Betta Splendens is hugely inaccurate and, like many other "old wives tales" in the hobby, is being spread and repeated over and over again - and this results in untimely deaths of these fish.
For those who are interested: this is one of many sources we you could read about the true natural habitats of these creatures:


	The Native Betta Habitat – Separating Fact from Fiction  |  Betta Fish Care	



sanj said:


> I do not necesarily agree that keeping fish in aquariums is cruel. I think many people are cruel in the way they neglect the needs of thier fish or house them inappropriately.


Sanj, I could not agree with this more... I spend many hours on research before I get any new (for me) fish making sure that the conditions I can provide are acceptable. This is why I am appalled by traders offering "suggestions" on keeping one or another type of fish which are inadequate (to say the least). Many people just buy "little toys" and presume that the way these "toys" are kept by the seller is O.K. Sad, really...


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## fish fodder (10 Mar 2013)

I'm not arguing, just putting another side to the story.


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## dean (24 Mar 2013)

Having been in and out of the trade over the past 25 years, you will have to believe me when I say the worst people are the public, you can try to educate them but if your answer is not what they want to hear they will ignore it and do what they want anyway 
As an example last year I was the manager of the pet department in a large garden centre and one day a woman with her young son came to me and asked if I could get her a snowy owl or a barn owl, I explained they are not pets, she said if Harry potter had one them why couldn't she? After 15 minutes explaining to her she turned round and pointed out a pure white budgie and said "I'll take that instead then" I refused to sell her it.. She went to complain to the general manager, this plus a few other things like not stocking fish bowls or unfiltered tanks led to our parting. 
The general public view fish as disposable pets, and the trade relies on this, as people kill fish so they come back and replace them
Serious fish keepers research the fish before buying them and keep them in suitable conditions, and usually belong to clubs or forums to expand their knowledge..
The worst customer from a trade point of view are people with a serious interest in planted aquariums as they don't buy many fish and the ones they do, live a long and healthy life 

So sorry for the long ramble but there's no easy solution to fish cruelty, if every fish bought lived a full and healthy life then less fish would be imported= less shops stock fish= prices would rise

Most councils that licence pet shops have no idea about water quality etc


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## dean (27 Mar 2013)

Well that killed the subject


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## Lindy (27 Mar 2013)

Hi Dean, I would have to agree, the public SUCK! I've been a dog groomer for many years and it would horrify you if you saw some of the stuff I have. All from folk you say they love their dogs so I'm not surprised by anything I see re fish.
Found this listing on ebay


> ***jewl 90 cichlids fish tank with stand+ full set up+halfmoon betta, bargain***


At first I looked as I was concerned about the betta being in with cichlids! But no, it gets a jar all of its own.
I sent them a message saying this was cruel, what more can you do?


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## dean (28 Mar 2013)

I've no idea what the answer is 
If you try to advise people, some will not take any notice and do what they want the odd few will not come back as you don't agree with their wants = you don't know anything


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## Nat N (13 Jun 2013)

To revive the topic - I am pleased that my message to that Ebay seller has worked. They are still selling bettas now - now with a sky high postage  At least, each betta seems to be in an - "allegedly" - appropriate environment when photographed... On a side note, I just got a gourgeous crowntail from such a rough retailer as one of the major "general pets chain" (not sure I can mention names). I came one day - and here they were, not with suitable tankmates, etc. I resisted. A day or so after, I was shopping in a superm,arket in the area, and could not resist having a look. My "number one" at the first visit has gone - probably (and sadly!) to a child's plastic tank whith nobody of the parent having a slightest clue what is the best way to keep them. So, I simply could not pick up the "number two" - healthy crowntail with red fins and dark body. A tank had to be put up (I have a few spare ones in the losft and of course a lot of media from existing tanks filters and a lot of plants). And here he is - strted to built a bubble nest straight away - I am guessing he is happy...


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## IanD (14 Jun 2013)

My two cents, one of the biggest hurdles to getting bettas into the tanks they deserve is that retailers have to seperate them to avoid aggression. It's better for their well being to be kept singly in smaller tanks than with tank mates in larger tanks where their aggression will result in deaths. A retailer that tried to keep them individually in decent sized tanks would go out of business as there wouldn't be enough profit in dedicating so much space to just one inexpensive fish. Of course there are some other species that can be safely housed with bettas to get around this but then the retailer has the risk of cross contaminating stock from different supplies.

Novice fishkeepers will see the shop keeping them in small tanks and assume that this is acceptable for the life of the fish, which is wrong. Providing the display tanks are well filtered then it's an acceptable short term solution as a shop is really only a transit point for these fish and the small display tanks are hopefully not long term housing solutions.

On a different note, rescuing a fish from a shop which has bad practices is great for that fish only but encourages the shop to continue their bad practices.


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## Andy Thurston (14 Jun 2013)

You can report them to rspca. Living world in leeds got closed down for animal cruelty . Its now called pet and aquatic because previous owner is banned from keeping animals


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## Nat N (14 Jun 2013)

Evening all,
No, I did not mean to "have a go" at this particular retailer: they do what they do: and they have regular deliveries of bettas which are sold very quickly - no sign of going out of business. And as I said they even had the bettas with the tolerable tankmates (for at least temporary accommodation). It is just - this batch was of young, healthy and, frankly, very impressive quality bettas, very rare "catch" even in better shops.
As for me not buying to "encourage trade" - if I had not bought that betta he would have ended up in a plastic "little mermaid" tank with the people who have no idea how to care about not only him but any fish. For the shops which have bettas in racks, it would be a good practice to ask the customer how experienced they are and then explain how the bettas should be kept at home. Some shops/shop assistants do and some don't do this but this should be a rule. It is the same situation as with puppies and kittens - how many of them are bought by people who don't really realise that you cannot just "switch them off when not in use"?!...
By the way, there is number of fish you can house with bettas successfully - I have been keeping them for long time now and know that some combinations work very well... So, it is not THAT restrictive - just a matter of knowledge, experience and research. Also, bettas are individualities and some (I know it first hand!) actually PREFER company of some other fish - of course there are others not so keen... Not all the rules of keeping bettas are rigid...
Actually, that post of mine was just to say that when I see THE betta - I cannot go away easily! Sad, I know... 
Also, I hoped to make more people to read this to encourage more people to intervene/complain (when possible) when they see something wrong. The same as with puppies and kittens and any other animal, really...


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