# My 60p soft water



## plantnoobdude (13 Jun 2021)

rescape.....



after one week (only 3 days lights on)




kh:0-2
gh-10
ph>6
CO2:30-40ppm (lime green/yellow)

Ludwigia senegalensis will be arriving on wednesday. Highly recommend K2aqua on Ebay. tonina and ludwigia white is also from there.

plant list:
Limnophila Sessiliflora (to be removed)
Ammania Gracilis
Ludwigia Mini super red
Hygrophila Polysperma
Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala Indica, or "bonsai" for the uncultured
eriocaulon Cinereum
Lysimmachia Nummularia
Limnophila HIppuridoides
Tonina Fluviatilis
Ludwigia white
Crypt willisii
ludwigia white reverted (inclinata sp)
Staurogyne Repens
Marsilea Hirsuta


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## erwin123 (13 Jun 2021)

I look forward to seeing the variety of plants in your tank. H. Polysperma is probably there as a nitrate sink because it grows like a weed, but probably won't be needed once the other plants get established. Because my tank is really packing in the plants like your tank, its important to find species that are able to grow straight  

My Rotala H'ra stems are bending like crazy and some are even creeping along the substrate, so I will probably have to replace it with something else. I'm interested in your plant list and how they work in terms of growing and staying within their 'area'.


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## plantnoobdude (13 Jun 2021)

I actually quite like H polysperma, as a plant. Might be replaced with syn. macrocaulon if i can find it. as for keeping them in there own area, diligent trimming keeps on top of things. My light is relatively low, as it's just two cheap lights. 30watt total and 2000lm, for around 100 sgd it's good quality.
your tank is stunning, and I wish i was able to get my hands on the rarez you have


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## plantnoobdude (13 Jun 2021)

Today is water change day and filter maintenance day. limnophila will leave, pics later.


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## plantnoobdude (13 Jun 2021)

after the water change.
next few months I'll really focus on strict trimming


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## plantnoobdude (13 Jun 2021)

cute shrimpy inhabitants, hopefully they breed for me.
excuse the bba and staghorn


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## plantnoobdude (16 Jun 2021)

TC Senegalensis in, again highly recommend k2aqua, plants arrived quickly and safely.


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## plantnoobdude (17 Jun 2021)

possible clear mutation from my hygrophila polysperma callus plant, but most likely an example of hyperhydricity.


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## plantnoobdude (17 Jun 2021)

@dw1305 any opinions?


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## dw1305 (18 Jun 2021)

Hi all, 


plantnoobdude said:


> @dw1305 any opinions?......but most likely an example of hyperhydricity.


The glassy leaves may be hyperhydricity. I haven't had anything to do with _in vitro_ plants for 30 years, but during my time in commercial horticulture <"glassiness"> was  an issue.

The chlorotic new leaves look to be a deficiency in one of the non-mobile plant nutrients which are involved in chlorophyll production. The most likely of these are <"iron (Fe++(+)) and/or manganese (Mn)">.

cheers Darrel


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## plantnoobdude (18 Jun 2021)

that's what i thought, and yes these plants were in a poorly fertilised tank, so that makes sense. many thanks darrel


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## plantnoobdude (18 Jun 2021)

tank today, senegalensis making it's first few red leaves.


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## plantnoobdude (22 Jun 2021)

hi guys centrolepis drummondiana. many thanks to Roland. could not recommend more


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## plantnoobdude (23 Jun 2021)

first FTS since centrolepis arrived. hippuridoides to be replaced with Ludwigia Cuba.


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## plantnoobdude (27 Jun 2021)

blood vomit starting to root! might get a new light soon, exciting times.


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## plantnoobdude (1 Jul 2021)

light ordered! in the mean time, thought you might enjoy my low tech tanks


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## plantnoobdude (1 Jul 2021)




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## plantnoobdude (1 Jul 2021)




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## plantnoobdude (4 Jul 2021)

clear hygrophila still stable, thought you guys might like to see.





and new leaves on anubias nana petite. very excited!


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## plantnoobdude (5 Jul 2021)

slight rescape and split the centrolepis drummondiana, beautiful little plants


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## plantnoobdude (12 Jul 2021)

New light!  chihiros wrgbii 45

running at 60:60:35 rgb in order.


/forum/attachments/img_7416-jpg.171780/?hash=224e667fc31fb359479a577cbb47d3fe


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## erwin123 (13 Jul 2021)

Nice. Whats the purple/pink plant? Don't see it in your tank (or at least not that colour in your FTS) WRGB is making red plants redder compared to your earlier photos


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## plantnoobdude (13 Jul 2021)

@erwin123  it's limnophila hippuridoides. the bottom sides color up to be purple.


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## plantnoobdude (18 Jul 2021)

dimmed the light a little and went back to the spray bar because of algae issues.

 noticed the ember tetra being a little more adventurous after the background fell off and i didn't get round to fixing it/

 more embers and a trio of honey gourami coming soon! hope that makes em even less shy.


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## plantnoobdude (19 Jul 2021)

tank parameters for the interested.
kh: 0
ph 4-5
gh:10
substrate: tropica aquasoil
fertiliser: none at the moment
co2: quite high, will get 6dkh drop checker soon to aim for 45ppm
filtration/flow: eheim 2213+skimmer resulting in around a *Theoretical* turnover of 15x per hour.
light: chihiros wrgb2 at 50:30:50 rgb in order

plant list. 
rotala indica,
hygrophila polysperma
rotala rotundifolia
ludwigia inclinata cuba
limnophila hippuridoides
ludwigia mini super red
tonina fluviatilis
ludwigia senegalensis
ludwigia white
eriocaulon cinereum
centrolepis drummondiana
hygrophila clear
marsilea hirsuta
staurogyne repens
crypt willissi


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## erwin123 (20 Jul 2021)

noticed your earlier posts it was pH 6 and it has now dropped to pH 4-5. Is it due mainly to added CO2?

I can't spot the ludwigia senegalensis in your FTS? Is it together with the super reds?


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## plantnoobdude (20 Jul 2021)

low ph is from 0kh @erwin123. senegalensis is in betweeen eriocaulon and centrolepis drummondiana in the foreground.


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## plantnoobdude (28 Jul 2021)

quick update... everything growing in well. ordered some dry salts. not sure what i'm going to do with dosing yet. any ideas?atleast algae is under control at the moment.



very happy with ludwigia white and blood vomit. showing growth although slowly.


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## Wookii (29 Jul 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> quick update... everything growing in well. ordered some dry salts. not sure what i'm going to do with dosing yet. any ideas?atleast algae is under control at the moment.



I'd be inclined to dose full EI, at least to start with, you're showing quite a few deficiency symptoms in the older leaves, so at least with EI you can rule out nutrients.

Did you get the APFUK starter kit? if so, just follow the instructions, its very straight forward.


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## plantnoobdude (29 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> you're showing quite a few deficiency symptoms in the older leaves, so at least with EI you can rule out nutrients


i'm showing deficiency because of an experiment I was doing. when the tank was rescaped i got a massive nutrient spike due to surfacing a few root tabs. nitrates around 100ppm.
before that i was having good growth with 12ppm N, 0.9ppm P, and 8ppm K.  I'm curious about EI and fast growth, but not sure i can commit, haha.


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## erwin123 (29 Jul 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> i'm showing deficiency because of an experiment I was doing. when the tank was rescaped i got a massive nutrient spike due to surfacing a few root tabs. nitrates around 100ppm.
> i wanted to see how long the tank could go without ferts. before that i was having good growth with 12ppm N, 0.9ppm P, and 8ppm K.  I'm curious about EI and fast growth, but not sure i can commit, haha.



Hey I feel your pain... my substrate is 10 years old and occasionally a JBL Kugeln ball surfaces and its emergency water change time!

I recently got JBL Ferropol Root Tabs which are like tablets (i.e. panadol type, not iPads..) and instructions say they last for 1 month. But guess what, after 2 months, they don't dissolve completely, I guess the nutrients leech out of whatever was holding the tablet together but when doing maintenance, if the remains of the tablet surfaces, its a bit of a mess again (though not as bad as Kugeln ball)

I'm going to try the Aquario Neo Tabs next  http://www.aquario.co.kr/neoTab/neoPlantsTab.php?ckattempt=1


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## plantnoobdude (29 Jul 2021)

@erwin123  i've completely given up on root tabs. i think aquasoil and lean dosing is enough. i'm thinking about EI though...


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## bazz (29 Jul 2021)

erwin123 said:


> JBL Kugeln ball surfaces and its emergency water change time!


The exact reason for an impending break down and rescape with new soil for my 40cm cube, I'll never use those again.
I'm just waiting for the results to come through from using TNC Plugs on my larger aquarium.


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## plantnoobdude (31 Jul 2021)

finished a water change and some replanting


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## plantnoobdude (2 Aug 2021)

first leaves from my senegalensis. A LOT of trouble getting it converted from tc emmersed to submersed. but all the melt back and deficiencies are resolved. and the plant is rewarding me with it's beautiful colours and veins.


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## erwin123 (2 Aug 2021)

I'm still try to figure out how to get mine to colour up fully.


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## plantnoobdude (2 Aug 2021)

erwin123 said:


> I'm still try to figure out how to get mine to colour up fully.



it is a very light hungry sp.. nitrate limitation does not seem to do much from what i've heard.


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## erwin123 (3 Aug 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> it is a very light hungry sp.. nitrate limitation does not seem to do much from what i've heard.



I also have the problem of lower leaves not doing so well - in this forum, many have said that yellowing lower leaves are caused by lack of CO2 at substrate level, even though I do see some CO2 mist going to the substrate level.

I'm moving one of my stems to the area of maximum CO2 misting to see if there is a growth difference. From what I see, the CO2 mist comes out of the Lily pipe and hits against the opposite side of the tank and is pushed down and to the side. This area, where the CO2 hits the opposite side of the tank seems to be the largest accumulation of CO2 mist before it is pushed around the rest of the tank... but lighting at the side is not as strong... so it would be interesting to see the difference.


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## plantnoobdude (3 Aug 2021)

erwin123 said:


> I also have the problem of lower leaves not doing so well - in this forum, many have said that yellowing lower leaves are caused by lack of CO2 at substrate level, even though I do see some CO2 mist going to the substrate level.


this plant is prone to self shading, and doesn't like being planted too close to each other, perhaps spacing them apart would help?


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## plantnoobdude (3 Aug 2021)

new plants, eriocaulon quinquangulare, synoganthus rio negro giant, cuphea anagaloidea, bacopa salzmanii. layout is temporary i need ideas haha. many thanks to macek.g for the plants. A plus seller all arrived perfectly with extras as well.


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## erwin123 (4 Aug 2021)

nice. but the Giant Syntho would be a bit big (width of crown) for your tank compared to Lago Grande or Macrocaulon? 

2hr aquarist just released an article of B. Salzmannii, now I know there are 2 types, the green type that has a red/purplish tinge  and the deep red/purple type. I think I'll start hunting for the deep red/purple type since it does  not appear to require any special water parameters.... seems to cost like 16x more than the regular green ones though...


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## plantnoobdude (4 Aug 2021)

erwin123 said:


> nice. but the Giant Syntho would be a bit big (width of crown) for your tank compared to Lago Grande or Macrocaulon?
> 
> 2hr aquarist just released an article of B. Salzmannii, now I know there are 2 types, the green type that has a red/purplish tinge  and the deep red/purple type. I think I'll start hunting for the deep red/purple type since it does  not appear to require any special water parameters.... seems to cost like 16x more than the regular green ones though...


yes, i should've gone with macrocaulon. but i like the look, and if it becomes too big can always swap and sell.
yes, there are two types. i have the non-sg salz


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## plantnoobdude (5 Aug 2021)

EI dosing day 4. seems easy, just dose 2ml micro and macro everyday. 
at the end of the week i dose
30ppm No3
20ppm K
3 ppm PO4
0.4ppm Fe
slight increase in algae, nothing too bad good maintenance and it should go away.


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## plantnoobdude (9 Aug 2021)

some plant pictures
./forum/attachments/img_9626-jpg.172973/?hash=011b6c185ca6bfab929efa791521c0fd




Rotala Rotundifolia and Ludwigia Palustris. Palustris really seems to like EI gets much bigger and redder. Rotundifolia is still a decent color. perhaps light stress.


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## plantnoobdude (10 Aug 2021)

centrolepis drummondiana or eriocaulon "blood vomit" before and after split



can't wait till i can get a full carpet.


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## erwin123 (10 Aug 2021)

nice. You switched from lily pipe to spraybar?


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## plantnoobdude (10 Aug 2021)

erwin123 said:


> nice. You switched from lily pipe to spraybar?


yes, a bit of issue with uneven flow and staghorn in carpet. will kill with h2o2 later and should be resolved.


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## plantnoobdude (11 Aug 2021)

quinquangulare is growing well. good root growth. doesn't seem too difficult (yet)


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## plantnoobdude (11 Aug 2021)

made the light crazy purple haha. just for fun. also noticed my first berried CRS! it's been two months and i was getting impatient.


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## plantnoobdude (13 Aug 2021)

moved tonina looks much better now.

really liking cuba. i think i might try pantanal. cuba is very easy to grow haha.


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## plantnoobdude (15 Aug 2021)




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## Libba (15 Aug 2021)

Looking great. Plant health looks good now too. Is that Bacopa Caroliniana in the midground?


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## plantnoobdude (15 Aug 2021)

Libba said:


> Looking great. Plant health looks good now too. Is that Bacopa Caroliniana in the midground?


Thanks, yes it is caroliniana and salzmannii US side by side


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## erwin123 (16 Aug 2021)

Your Eriocaulon Q is doing very well with nice thick leaves, and your Super Reds, the lower leaves all look healthy. I am having a problem with the lower leaves getting the bright green dust algae.


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## plantnoobdude (16 Aug 2021)

erwin123 said:


> Your Eriocaulon Q is doing very well with nice thick leaves, and your Super Reds, the lower leaves all look healthy. I am having a problem with the lower leaves getting the bright green dust algae.


Gsa is usually from excess organics in my case, i vacuum out the substrate and clean the filter as regularly as possible.


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## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2021)

inspired from @erwin123 got some buce kedagang from a tropica tc. something new to cover in algae🤣 for only 9.99 the amount of plants you get is astonishing. look forward to the first set of converted leaves.
fts. rotundifolia and indica will probably next to go


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## erwin123 (20 Aug 2021)

nice. just noticed your new diffuser setup, that's one step away from switching to an inline diffuser....


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## Libba (21 Aug 2021)

Looks great man


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## plantnoobdude (24 Aug 2021)

I keep changing the scape....


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## plantnoobdude (29 Aug 2021)

9 day progression on buce




also quinquangulare that was struggling with melt is putting out new leaves. not very concerned anymore.
Full Tank Shot. for good luck.


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## plantnoobdude (5 Sep 2021)

dutchy rescape, excited to see how it grows in.


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## plantnoobdude (7 Sep 2021)

clear mutated hygrophila. plus cuphea.


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## plantnoobdude (15 Sep 2021)

growing in well. very happy with ludwigia cuba peaking over palustris. which is just what I wanted it to do. sadly i have some issues with algae as well. light is raised to max hight, hopefully that alone will get rid of the algae.


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## erwin123 (16 Sep 2021)

Is the algae issue with the Buces? Noticed that your Buces are being moved into new positions each pic - are you trying to look for a better location due to algae issues?

Currently my 'plan' is to let them be shaded by the stem plants, in the hopes that less light on the Buces will reduce algae. Buces are like any other plant in that the new growth is very healthy and algae free but the old leaves may be prone to algae. Unfortunately for Buces there are many old leaves as the new leaves take a long time to appear

I know there are many beautiful Buce tanks where every leaf seems to be healthy - I'm still trying to figure that out how they keep all the leaves looking so good


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## plantnoobdude (16 Sep 2021)

erwin123 said:


> Is the algae issue with the Buces? Noticed that your Buces are being moved into new positions each pic - are you trying to look for a better location due to algae issues?
> 
> Currently my 'plan' is to let them be shaded by the stem plants, in the hopes that less light on the Buces will reduce algae. Buces are like any other plant in that the new growth is very healthy and algae free but the old leaves may be prone to algae. Unfortunately for Buces there are many old leaves as the new leaves take a long time to appear
> 
> I know there are many beautiful Buce tanks where every leaf seems to be healthy - I'm still trying to figure that out how they keep all the leaves looking so good


i just keep forgettng where they go, and it doesn't help that the suction cup isn't very strong haha. 
yes, i think i will try make a shaded area for my buce. also raised the light a tad to see if it helps.


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## plantnoobdude (19 Sep 2021)

algae covered kedagang spent 3 days in my low tech vase. it is now algae free!


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## plantnoobdude (22 Sep 2021)

lots of algae and deficiency but, oh well.


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## Wookii (22 Sep 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> View attachment 174601lots of algae and deficiency but, oh well.



What are you dosing?


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## erwin123 (23 Sep 2021)

looking at the new growth on the Syngonanthus 'Giant' for the most recent picture and the one before... its no longer green (or is it a lighting/camera issue?). 

read in your earlier post you already dosing full EI I don't think its a fertiliser deficiency? All i can think of is that it is that S. Giant is a huge plant - have you trimmed it a little too hard?  I have tried to plant a very 'short' Syngonanthus stalk and it wasn't viable (I made a mistake in trimming one of them) - think they are happier to be of a certain length.


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## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> What are you dosing?


30ppm No3, 20ppm K, 3ppm PO4. 0.4ppm Fe, Mg 3ppm per week
macros front load after water change. micros dosed 7 days a week. micros from aquariumplantfood.
micros bumped to 0.6 yesterday.


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## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2021)

erwin123 said:


> looking at the new growth on the Syngonanthus 'Giant' for the most recent picture and the one before... its no longer green (or is it a lighting/camera issue?).
> 
> read in your earlier post you already dosing full EI I don't think its a fertiliser deficiency? All i can think of is that it is that S. Giant is a huge plant - have you trimmed it a little too hard?  I have tried to plant a very 'short' Syngonanthus stalk and it wasn't viable (I made a mistake in trimming one of them) - think they are happier to be of a certain length.


perhaps, thank you for the insight. i had to trim this short because they were melting bacl very badly. i didn't know this species was H2O2 Intolerant....
the stunted tips however are making new side shoots. hopefully with extra micros they'll grow in well.


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## Wookii (23 Sep 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> 30ppm No3, 20ppm K, 3ppm PO4. 0.4ppm Fe, Mg 3ppm per week
> macros front load after water change. micros dosed 7 days a week. micros from aquariumplantfood.
> micros bumped to 0.6 yesterday.



Interesting - as a softwater tank, you shouldn't have any issues with iron chelates, as presumably the pH is staying well below 7 all the time. Your increase in micros may well fix it. 

The only other thing I can suggest trying is increasing the Mg to 10ppm (which is the general recommendation for EI), unless you are adding a load of it if you are remineralising RO?


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## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> Interesting - as a softwater tank, you shouldn't have any issues with iron chelates, as presumably the pH is staying well below 7 all the time. Your increase in micros may well fix it.


hopefully,


Wookii said:


> The only other thing I can suggest trying is increasing the Mg to 10ppm (which is the general recommendation for EI), unless you are adding a load of it if you are remineralising RO?


Mg at 10ppm during water change with RO. 3ppm more supplimented through-out the week.


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## dw1305 (23 Sep 2021)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> Interesting - as a softwater tank, you shouldn't have any issues with iron chelates,





erwin123 said:


> looking at the new growth on the Syngonanthus 'Giant' for the most recent picture and the one before... its no longer green


Assuming the new leaves really are as pale as they look? I would try a different iron (Fe) chelator. It is only really iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) deficiencies that cause <"chlorosis in new growth">.

cheers Darrel


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## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> Assuming the new leaves really are as pale as they look? I would try a different iron (Fe) chelator. It is only really iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) deficiencies that cause <"chlorosis in new growth">.
> ...


I am using EDTA Fe as part of the micro mix from apfuk. if I'm being honest, I'd REALLY want to avoid mixing my own micros. 
does the time i dose have any impact? at the moment i dose at around 7:30am and then lights turn on at 3pm.
what's puzzling me is i have one stem that is doing very well. and others with varying levels of deficiency symptoms.


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## Wookii (23 Sep 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> I am using EDTA Fe as part of the micro mix from apfuk. if I'm being honest, I'd REALLY want to avoid mixing my own micros.
> does the time i dose have any impact? at the moment i dose at around 7:30am and then lights turn on at 3pm.
> what's puzzling me is i have one stem that is doing very well. and others with varying levels of deficiency symptoms.



You can just add some DTPA iron to your mix - you should be able to get it online in powdered form, if TNC Iron is premixed and is DTPA chelated.

Does your tank pH ever go above 7 though? If it does, you may want to delay dosing the micros until the gas comes on and starts to bring the pH down.

EDIT: It's also worth checking your calculations, to ensure you're achieving the ppms you think you are.


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## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> You can just add some DTPA iron to your mix - you should be able to get it online in powdered form, if TNC Iron is premixed and is DTPA chelated.


will try adding dtpa if raising micros does not work. how much would i add?


Wookii said:


> Does your tank pH ever go above 7 though? If it does, you may want to delay dosing the micros until the gas comes on and starts to bring the pH down.


i do not think so.

i have 11.7g of micro mix in 750ml ro water.
gives me 15.6g/l
meaning 15600mg/l
15600x0.082 because the mix is 8.2% Fe
=1279mg
1279x0.002= 2.56 mg (2ml dose)
2.56/45=0.058
x7 around 0.4ppm.

i now dose 3 ml daily which should give me 0.6ppm Fe per week.


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## Wookii (23 Sep 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> will try adding dtpa if raising micros does not work. how much would i add?



0.2-0.3 ppm should be enough - it'll be trial and error to an extent.



plantnoobdude said:


> i do not think so.
> 
> i have 11.7g of micro mix in 750ml ro water.
> gives me 15.6g/l
> ...



The maths looks right to me - incidentally 0.6pm is roughly what the standard APFUK dose comes out at (based on 1Tsp=6gr)


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## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2021)

Wookii said:


> 0.2-0.3 ppm should be enough - it'll be trial and error to an extent.
> 
> 
> 
> The maths looks right to me - incidentally 0.6pm is roughly what the standard APFUK dose comes out at (based on 1Tsp=6gr)


Thank you!


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## plantnoobdude (26 Sep 2021)

upped po4 to 5ppm/week still front loading.
synoganthus is not too bad, a few shoots growing. but i have one stem that is growing perfectly which is odd.


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## plantnoobdude (2 Oct 2021)

low tech vase!


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## erwin123 (2 Oct 2021)

Low tech - less algae, less problems! 👍


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## plantnoobdude (8 Jan 2022)

one of the few semi-decent looking plants in my tank.


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## erwin123 (10 Jan 2022)

welcome back, was waiting for your updates. Is this a Rotala Macrandra? (which type?)

Also, you mentioned in another thread that you are keeping CRS in your tank? How are they doing?


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## plantnoobdude (10 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> welcome back, was waiting for your updates. Is this a Rotala Macrandra? (which type?)
> 
> Also, you mentioned in another thread that you are keeping CRS in your tank? How are they doing?


thank you! it is the regular macrandra from tropica.
the crs were doing well and breeding well under tropica dosing, but with ei dosing and how much co2 i need they have sadly stopped breeding. i have maybe 10 or so now.


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## plantnoobdude (11 Jan 2022)

tank in all its stunted, deficient and algae-covered glory. lost all my eriocaulon cinereum, quinquangulare and "blood vomit" from a co2 regulator failure. a  month or so ago. no co2 for 5 days.... an expensive mistake. 6 mature quinquangulare and over 40 blood vomit lost....... cuphea looking pitiful as ever. different stems of cuba to different degrees of stunted-ness, algae infested s.repens. stunted macrandra, wallichii not looking good... and tonina is iron deficient. big changes to ferts coming, and i have some ADA TYPE 1! soil soaking that should be ready soon.


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## Karmicnull (12 Jan 2022)

Oof. The difference between that pic and the one above is painful. Sympathy.


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## plantnoobdude (21 Jan 2022)

still strugglin awayyyy. but things in some plants are improving but others not. ~1ppm fe per week is helping tonina, cuba, bacopa. but has the opposite effect for cuphea, wallichii, indica. 

anyone have any explanation on why my wallichii looked so good a couple weeks after planted (from emmersed,) but has slowly become worse? dosing for wallichii has always been EI and co2 is the same.


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## erwin123 (22 Jan 2022)

Your earlier Wallichii pics were very nice indeed. Really not easy to get that colour - I've been trying.😅

Wallichiis can go from being perfectly normal to suddenly stunting in 24 hours. CO2 instability is one possible reason (mine stunted when I was tweaking CO2 and Vin Kutty's AGA2019 video also has a slide on Wallichii stunting due to CO2 change).
Fortunately, they grow sideshoots fast - so I would just discard any stunted stems and plant their sideshoots for example (I've moved my stunted Wallichiis to my low tech tank to see if they will unstunt there).

Is 1.0ppm Fe really necessary? Thats double EI dosing? Anyway, I use the 'ice cube into substrate' method for dosing Fe, rather than direct into the water column. You could see if that helps.


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## plantnoobdude (22 Jan 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Is 1.0ppm Fe really necessary? Thats double EI dosing? Anyway, I use the 'ice cube into substrate' method for dosing Fe, rather than direct into the water column. You could see if that helps.


yes, otherwhise tonina go a really ugly white colour, it's slowly improving now. keeping in mind i dose high po4 as well, so it is probably precipitating.

hopefully the wallichii grows well under leaner dosing with urea. fingers crossed.


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Jan 2022)

the tank is in what i'd say is a constant state of mediocrity, some algae here and there, some plant issues but nothing too bad.

anyway my mediocre tank does not stop my collectoritis. new additions, crypt flamingo. and Anubias minima i found at the shop that was variegated! the guy at the shop seemed puzzled as to why I wanted "the one 3 rows to the left of the filter intake and 4 rows from the front" oh well, very pleased with the variegated anubias, hope it stays stable. if you look closely you should be able to see it.


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 Feb 2022)

slow and steady improvement. best thing about high tech is that you can see changes daily.
incase people were wondering what i am dosing
2ppm N (urea) ~9pppm No3
0.26ppm P         ~0.5ppm Po4
1.3ppm K
0.1ppm Fe dtpa
0.067ppm Mn
0.007ppm Cu
0.014ppm Zn
0.014 B
0.003ppm Mo
0.0001ppm Ni
calcium 18ppm, 6ppm Mg


----------



## Djoko Sauza (3 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> View attachment 181580
> slow and steady improvement. best thing about high tech is that you can see changes daily.
> incase people were wondering what i am dosing
> 2ppm N (urea) ~9pppm No3
> ...


Weekly values I assume? If so you went from 1ppm Fe to 0.1ppm, are the plants not showing iron deficiencies anymore?


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 Feb 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> Weekly values I assume? If so you went from 1ppm Fe to 0.1ppm, are the plants not showing iron deficiencies anymore?


yes, actually was showing deficiency at 1ppm edta but no more at 0.1ppm dtpa


----------



## plantnoobdude (4 Feb 2022)

now assuming the issue was actually Fe and not something else, that means that Dtpa as a chelator is atleast 10x more effective than edta at providing iron to my plants at my ph/ tank parameters. which is surprising because Edta is supposed to be decent at lower ph's.

also, I bought some ammania golden, new stuff to cover in algae and stunt to hell!


----------



## erwin123 (5 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> now assuming the issue was actually Fe and not something else, that means that Dtpa as a chelator is atleast 10x more effective than edta at providing iron to my plants at my ph/ tank parameters. which is surprising because Edta is supposed to be decent at lower ph's.
> 
> also, I bought some ammania golden, new stuff to cover in algae and stunt to hell!



Welcome to the Ammannia Stunting Club!   Though frankly, your lean dosing should actually be ideal for the plant
😅

Here's an IG post that I had to linked to previously :


----------



## plantnoobdude (5 Feb 2022)

problem species lookin good!!! contrasts are nice.

cuphea has just been topped and replanted, fully expect it to stunt and crumple on me, i could be wrong though,


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 Feb 2022)

the mediocre legacy continues....



some algae issues but plant health is decent so i'm happy!
ludwigia white is the newest addition. and you can see the flamingos new converted leaves.


----------



## Djoko Sauza (12 Feb 2022)

Where did you get that foggy film you're using on the sides of the tank? I can only find in white, not green...


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 Feb 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> Where did you get that foggy film you're using on the sides of the tank? I can only find in white, not green.


the good old green dust algae film!


----------



## Djoko Sauza (12 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> the good old green dust algae film!


The longer you let it grow the more satisfying it is to scrape off, talking from experience


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 Feb 2022)

Djoko Sauza said:


> The longer you let it grow the more satisfying it is to scrape off, talking from experience


I'm looking forward to tomorrows water change! it's been bugging me all week.


----------



## plantnoobdude (19 Feb 2022)

dosed some macros, micros upped to 0.075 fe as proxy weekly.


----------



## erwin123 (19 Feb 2022)

nice colours including the Wallichiis.  Do you have a corner internal filter on the right of your tank? or are those nozzles something else?


----------



## plantnoobdude (19 Feb 2022)

erwin123 said:


> nice colours including the Wallichiis. Do you have a corner internal filter on the right of your tank? or are those nozzles something else?


thanks. yeah it's an internal for a bit of extra flow.


----------



## plantnoobdude (21 Feb 2022)

minimal stunting. tank is far from perfect and is algae ridden, but the plants are starting to perk up!


----------



## plantnoobdude (27 Feb 2022)

new inhabitants!



added some h. polysperma so they feel more comfy, have ordered some red root floaters and they should be coming soon.

drop checker at a comfortable green.


----------



## plantnoobdude (1 Mar 2022)

tank is growing obnoxiously fast....  some algae issues, even with green drop checker reduced co2 (1-2bps)  and reduced flow. the staghorn is basically gone. now I have some grey-ish filament algae, gsa, gda and diatoms. quite the assortment eh? I have put down most my issues to too much N in water collumn, I am going back to just K and micro dosing.


----------



## plantnoobdude (17 Mar 2022)

staghorn completely gone, now am dealing with green hair algae, green spot algae, and green dust algae. The mediocre legacy™ continues!





liking the ludwigia white. fish seem happy. 




cuphea is not looking too bad

UGHH the stems look like trash.


----------



## plantnoobdude (17 Mar 2022)

recently have been considering adding one more school of fish to 'fully' stock the tank. was thinking sundadanio axelrodi, some small rasbora sp or nannostomus marginatus. would these fish species be alright with the gourami?


----------



## plantnoobdude (22 Mar 2022)

micros are currently tropica clone. at 0.08ppm Fe as proxy. working quite well. I believe lower non fe/mn micros is helping a lot especially with Ca deficiency. now K seems to be limited. so i did a small dose of 2ppm K, and will continue around 1ppm per week, this should be sufficient. bought some nh4no3, so will be experimenting with urea+nh4no3 combo. will prolly try a marschner recipe and tropica clone.
tank pic.



ammania gold babbyyyyy





cuphea lookin pretty and algae free on the new growth.



mac is alright-ish. some stems stunted but some are growing well.


----------



## John q (22 Mar 2022)

Show off 😃


----------



## erwin123 (23 Mar 2022)

Front left of your tank - is that a  Ludwigia var 'Meta' ? Thinking of getting a few stems to try as well.


----------



## plantnoobdude (24 Mar 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Front left of your tank - is that a  Ludwigia var 'Meta' ? Thinking of getting a few stems to try as well.


I think you're refering to the ludwigia white? meta is not available in EU yet I don't think.


----------



## GHNelson (25 Mar 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Bacopa salzmani


Where did you source this plant from?


----------



## plantnoobdude (25 Mar 2022)

GHNelson said:


> Where did you source this plant from?


I was told it was salzmannii at the time, but not too sure at the moment,
submerged it looks a lot like colorata,


----------



## GHNelson (25 Mar 2022)

Hi 
Yes, might be....hard to tell?


----------



## plantnoobdude (26 Mar 2022)

converting!
pls ignore the algae lol.



water change done, new macros gonna be tested out.


----------



## plantnoobdude (28 Mar 2022)

anyway, I have been noticing some stunting after water changes.



day after water change



two daysafter water change.



macrandra showed some splotchy green colours after water change, its resollved and isnt spreading.


ammannia growing well, hope it continues like this.


----------



## GreggZ (28 Mar 2022)

This is just a thought. I used to see this years ago in my tank. It had to do with ferts bottoming out after a water change. You remove a large amount of water you remove a large amount of nutrients. Some species don't like the dip.

IME Macranda has more nutrient needs than Ammania, so no surprise Ammania shows no effect. If you notice the plants rebound as the days go on it's likely because nutrient levels are coming back.

To combat this many people dose the tank back up after a water change to keep levels stable. Personally I front end load all macros. 

Again, just a thought. Could also be something completely different.


----------



## plantnoobdude (28 Mar 2022)

Hmmn yeah. though front loading wouldn't be too good with urea. maybe I should make my water changes smaller, 25% maybe. I do 50% every two weeks now. (every week is too much, just exhausting lol)


----------



## erwin123 (29 Mar 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Hmmn yeah. though front loading wouldn't be too good with urea. maybe I should make my water changes smaller, 25% maybe. I do 50% every two weeks now. (every week is too much, just exhausting lol)



Water change for me takes 30min including vacuuming substrate  because I can run a hose from my nearest tap... I guess you are using pails/buckets which is why its exhausting? 
I find more time is spent on trimming/ general maintenance because stem plants seem to grow much faster under high light 

Regarding water change causing a large change in water column nutrients.... I have been experimenting with halving the daily fert dose the day before water change and a slightly higher dose immediately after water change.


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 Apr 2022)

ammannia pedicellata just for you @erwin123 






put a couple stems in sand to see how they do as well.


----------



## erwin123 (4 Apr 2022)

The Pedicatella in the pot is a useful experiment, as you are also using ammonia rich aquasoil.... would be very interesting to see if there is any difference between the Pedicatella grown in sand vs grown in aquasoil.  

I see some of them putting out aerial roots -which is the same for my Pedicatellas - it makes me wonder whether the aerial roots help the plant absorb nutrients better from the water column, rather than solely rely on their leaves to absorb the nturients , and whether this prevents the leaves from "wrinkling/stunting".....


----------



## plantnoobdude (6 Apr 2022)

got some pantanal, it has recovered from shipping well and showing what looks like some growth.
still loving the ammannia




there is some algae on emmersed growth but shhhh, we don't talk about that. I've got some spirogyra ( I think) that got in the tank when I added the floaters so that sucks. it seems to be spreading so i need to do something.


----------



## erwin123 (7 Apr 2022)

The Ammannias are converting nicely.
One issue with Pantanal is that if you buy them submersed, they may be grown in farm tanks using EI as thats an easy way to farm Pantanal, so if they might need time to adapt to lean dosing....


----------



## plantnoobdude (7 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> The Ammannias are converting nicely.
> One issue with Pantanal is that if you buy them submersed, they may be grown in farm tanks using EI as thats an easy way to farm Pantanal, so if they might need time to adapt to lean dosing....


the pantanal were grown in a lean tank!


----------



## erwin123 (7 Apr 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> the pantanal were grown in a lean tank!


ah thats interesting .. a lot of sellers here use EI for their farm tanks (eg: Roger Goh's tanks for selling plants at his shop use EI as well).


----------



## plantnoobdude (10 Apr 2022)

spirogyra sucks.... introduced it with some floaters..



some plants stunted due to poor co2 cus i swapped out inline diffuser for an intank one while i got it cleaned.


----------



## erwin123 (11 Apr 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> spirogyra sucks.... introduced it with some floaters..
> View attachment 186337
> some plants stunted due to poor co2 cus i swapped out inline diffuser for an intank one while i got it cleaned.


Nice Pantanal colours.

Would it be correct to say that the Ammannia in the aquasoil is growing better than the Ammannia in the pot (with inert substrate)?  The one in the pot looks smaller?

For cleaning inline diffusers, I really don't believe that one needs to soak the diffuser for 24 hours to 'get rid of the bleach' - I always just soaked it in Prime+water for say 30min, and it appears to be 'good enough' to put back into the tank


----------



## plantnoobdude (11 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Nice Pantanal colours.
> 
> Would it be correct to say that the Ammannia in the aquasoil is growing better than the Ammannia in the pot (with inert substrate)?  The one in the pot looks smaller?
> 
> For cleaning inline diffusers, I really don't believe that one needs to soak the diffuser for 24 hours to 'get rid of the bleach' - I always just soaked it in Prime+water for say 30min, and it appears to be 'good enough' to put back into the tank


thanks! as for the ammannia, not really. the ones planted were just smallerside shoots. one of them got trimmmed though because of stunting, but I strongly believe it to bemore related to co2 than substrate differences.


erwin123 said:


> For cleaning inline diffusers, I really don't believe that one needs to soak the diffuser for 24 hours to 'get rid of the bleach' - I always just soaked it in Prime+water for say 30min, and it appears to be 'good enough' to put back into the tank


good to know! how much prime do you use? and how much bleach?


----------



## erwin123 (11 Apr 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> good to know! how much prime do you use? and how much bleach?


I have a plastic cup. I put the diffuser in with 3.25% liquid bleach without dilution.
After rinsing a few times, I just put a few drops of prime to the cup of water and wait for 30min George farmer uses a lot more prime (see video) but he seems to be putting it back into the tank almost immediately after the Prime treatment.


----------



## plantnoobdude (13 Apr 2022)

spirogyra still hitting hard, damn it why did I think adding floaters from ebay was a good idea.... should have got tc...
tonina is a super weed, and the pantanal as well. next water change im gonna have to trim some stuff.


----------



## Hufsa (13 Apr 2022)

That Pantanal with the Golden beside it is damn good looking!


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## plantnoobdude (13 Apr 2022)

Hufsa said:


> That Pantanal with the Golden beside it is damn good looking!


I'm loving the contrast so far, and in true plantnoobdude style, both in a state of mediocritytm! slightly stunted and some algae, but not that bad lol.


----------



## erwin123 (14 Apr 2022)

Its not easy to grow Pantanal and Pedicatella together


----------



## plantnoobdude (21 Apr 2022)

I am still fighting some algae that came in with my floaters, it seems the plants are winning the battle new addition nymphea micrantha 'geflekt' is gorgeous and growing really quick.

few stems ammannia are stunted, but most are looking fat and happy.
quinquangulare is looking pretty and has adapted well to the tank, looking forward to baby plantlets!
still haven't figured out the wallichii fully, but it looks to be perking up. 
pantanal is growing better. just got trimmed cause it was trying to climb out the tank!
ludwigia senegalensis is growing decently but still ratty and small growth forms.
rotala macrandra is getting better, but not great.
tonina is super weedy as always.



the devil


----------



## erwin123 (22 Apr 2022)

despite the floating plants, your tank seems pretty well lit!
nice growth all round... looking at the Ammannia in substrate vs Ammannia in pot, it seems one is much bigger/fatter than the other!

p.s. don't Nympheas eventually become Monster-sized plants? is this a special mini version?


----------



## plantnoobdude (22 Apr 2022)

erwin123 said:


> nice growth all round... looking at the Ammannia in substrate vs Ammannia in pot, it seems one is much bigger/fatter than the other!


yep, it seems ammannia is one of the few plants that likes soil in my tank. most of the rest grow better in sand, rotala mac, cuphea, s repens, tonina, wallichii. one I haven't been able to grow well in sand is senegalensis. It definitely is possible though.


erwin123 said:


> p.s. don't Nympheas eventually become Monster-sized plants? is this a special mini version?


shhh, don't give it ideas.


----------



## plantnoobdude (28 Apr 2022)

algae seems to be on its way out.


----------



## erwin123 (29 Apr 2022)

The Ammannias in the sand pots are really not doing so well - so thats useful information for those planning to grow it- use aquasoil!
Everything else is looking good.


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## plantnoobdude (29 Apr 2022)

probably because I'm changing stuff a lot lol. anyway there are a lot of species that do better in sand for me aswell, cuphea anagalloidea being the main one.


----------



## plantnoobdude (30 Apr 2022)

not perfect, but improving.
@MichaelJ 
cuphea anagalloidea inert substrate. poor colour because of lower light, but nice forms (low standards)


----------



## Hufsa (30 Apr 2022)

May I request a picture of the sand Tonina? 😙


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## plantnoobdude (1 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> May I request a picture of the sand Tonina? 😙





0.083~0.1 weekly Fe inert substrate.this s a pic from this morning. it's been yanked out now cus im trying to make the tank look more presentable... they grow pretty well, maybe 1/2cm smaller in crown size than the ones grown in soil, couple cm per week slower aswell, but still clean and nice growth.


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I think you're refering to the ludwigia white? meta is not available in EU yet I don't think.


It is, i got it!


----------



## Hufsa (3 May 2022)

JellieTG said:


> It is, i got it!








👁️👄👁️









So close!


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

Hufsa said:


> View attachment 187869
> 
> 👁️👄👁️
> 
> ...


I can send you some when it recovers from 1.5 weeks without fert..


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

JellieTG said:


> I can send you some when it recovers from 1.5 weeks without fert..


Also when im clear of algae, it's such a shame because i lost my absolutely gorgeous dutch.


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

New item by Viktorpedia


----------



## erwin123 (3 May 2022)

JellieTG said:


> New item by Viktorpedia


Nice, where exactly is the Meta? sorry eyesight not so good... 🤓


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Nice, where exactly is the Meta? sorry eyesight not so good... 🤓


It was trimmed right before that picture, i can link some more if you'd like?


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Nice, where exactly is the Meta? sorry eyesight not so good... 🤓


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 May 2022)

JellieTG said:


> It is, i got it!


looks very nice!


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> looks very nice!


Not rn, it's pretty stunted


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## erwin123 (3 May 2022)

JellieTG said:


> Not rn, it's pretty stunted



I notice that some of the new growth looks smaller - it may just be the plant adapting to your tank conditions - not necessarily stunting?
(sorry to occupy Plantnoobdude's thread with this discussion -shall we move to Jellie's journal?)


----------



## JellieTG (3 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> I notice that some of the new growth looks smaller - it may just be the plant adapting to your tank conditions - not necessarily stunting?
> (sorry to occupy Plantnoobdude's thread with this discussion -shall we move to Jellie's journal?)


That's was a phosphate defficiency months ago, sure!


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 May 2022)

JellieTG said:


> That's was a phosphate defficiency months ago, sure!


interesting, I may need a bit more po4.... I dose 0.88ppm weekly.


----------



## plantnoobdude (5 May 2022)

cuba+pantanal.
please excuse the stunted rotala rotundifolia... it's being moody after moving to submersed.


----------



## plantnoobdude (9 May 2022)

pantanal is medicocre, but still an improvement.
I have 2~3 nice lookin stems of ammannia that are growing steadily, and a couple stunted stems that got trimmed and are throwing side shoots. fingers crossed!
E. quinquangulare is growing well with the pair of blood vomit, slow and steady.
had to hack back tonina, an unruly weed that looks concerningly similar to egeria....
rotala indica unstunted. wallichii is improving, macrandra aswell.


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 May 2022)

pretty pretty🙂


----------



## plantnoobdude (13 May 2022)

light dusting of gda occured since i replanted some stuff without a water change after.
pretty interesting, guessing too much N in collumn caused the bloom, also I skipped a water change last saturday, so too much No3 could be the cause aswell.


----------



## erwin123 (14 May 2022)

The Pedicatellas are looking very nice!


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 May 2022)

erwin123 said:


> The Pedicatellas are looking very nice!


thank you! Im hoping the stunted stems throw some nicer side shoots soon!


----------



## plantnoobdude (20 May 2022)

tank has been hit hard with GDA.
plants are growing wild, always heard people say pantanal was a weed, but damn... I was not prepared for 10-20cm growth in a week. asas



as i post this, I've just realised how bad the photo is.....


----------



## plantnoobdude (20 May 2022)

interestingly though, I have no other algae which I was struggling with before. GSA, hair algae, staghorn, cyano are not really an issue at the moment.


----------



## plantnoobdude (21 May 2022)

some plants doing well, others not too much


----------



## plantnoobdude (6 Jun 2022)

just pictures for today.


----------



## plantnoobdude (9 Jun 2022)

More pics


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 Jun 2022)

current dosing
1-2ppm N
0.13-0.26 P
2K
4Mg
10 Ca
0.09fe
0.045Mn
0.005 Zn
0.005 Cu
0 B
0.002 Mo
0.00035 Ni
TDS is 39ppm
co2 level dropped off so some issues started showing. will try and get around atleast a 0.8pH drop from now on.


----------



## plantnoobdude (24 Jun 2022)

Overgrown


----------



## plantnoobdude (1 Jul 2022)

Still growin
Had a huge trim a week or two ago….. it’s growing back too fast. Haha.


Water changes are now 25% every two weeks. Very manageable, the tank is due a water change tomorrow. The glass has not been cleaned in two weeks, making progress 
TDS stays stable as well, two weeks ago it was 42ppm checked yesterday and it was 41-42ppm. I am dosing 9ppm no3 equivalent from nh4no3 weekly.


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 Jul 2022)

Progress on the picky ammania, just trimmed one stem that refused to unstunt. side shoots should come in fine.


----------



## Hufsa (3 Jul 2022)

Your Goldens look great, super rude of you.
Keep up the good work


----------



## erwin123 (4 Jul 2022)

indeed, very nice Goldens. just checking again... whats your total weekly dose of K?

the Erio Quin. is spectacular... but the TDS levels required for the plant to grow well are beyond me as I use tapwater.... so after my Erio Quin died during the tank leakage episode, I've replaced it with Flamingo instead since it apparently likes some hardness...


----------



## plantnoobdude (5 Jul 2022)

erwin123 said:


> indeed, very nice Goldens. just checking again... whats your total weekly dose of K?
> 
> the Erio Quin. is spectacular... but the TDS levels required for the plant to grow well are beyond me as I use tapwater.... so after my Erio Quin died during the tank leakage episode, I've replaced it with Flamingo instead since it apparently likes some hardness...


I dose 2ppm target once every two weeks to 25% tank water.  No idea what that is in real numbers. It seems a bit Low for Pantanal and hygrophila though. Might start dosing again with potassium weekly.
I am not sure if potassium affects ammannia golden much. I have seen nice ones grown in a variety of potassium levels.
Erio Quin is nice, yeah my tank water is very soft, 42TDS.
I also do have some crypt flamingo but I will have to move them out soon.


----------



## erwin123 (5 Jul 2022)

I'm still figuring out what makes the Ammannia Goldens tick, and my working hypothesis based on what is mentioned on the internet is low K (aka Tropica Specialised style dosing) is one of the key requirements. But interesting to hear that there are others who dose more K and still succeed with is. 

Anyway, you're making it seem like its easy to grow the Goldens......


----------



## _Maq_ (5 Jul 2022)

Guys, I believe it's not the amount of potassium per se, but *the ratio* K : Mg : Ca that counts.


----------



## plantnoobdude (19 Jul 2022)

heat wave brings some co2 problems….
And stunting. But it also brings fast fast growth in some species the tanks is a good 5 degrees hotter than usual.



2 days ago,






Today!
Upped gh, to 4
Ca:Mg:K
20:8:4
At water change
Macro at 8.8ppm NO3 from nh4no3 and urea.
Micros dosed to 0.025Fe weekly.
As expected I increase gh and K to double and TDS also doubles to 79ppm


----------



## plantnoobdude (30 Jul 2022)

Plant health is pretty good right now, stuff is still recovering from the heat wave, especially the Quins, sending out flower stalks like crazy.

Wallichii, cuphea, ammannia, tonina, macrandra all doing well. Pantanal is being moody, dunno why, co2 perhaps. Just cleaned the co2 diffuser for the first time in ~2 months. Hope that helps.



Algae is exclusively on stunted plants and glass, we can work on that soon…


----------



## plantnoobdude (30 Jul 2022)

wallichii





Improvements in cuphea



_Clean_ old growth



Stunted leaves collect algae, specifically GDA. These are the stems I replanted without roots. This plant fairs much better if you chop it down and let sideshoots develop.




I’ve always had problems with buce. Seems lately they’re doing better though, I have a variety of species now, maybe get a wall soon?



Stressed quins flowering, these LOVE co2. A couple days without co2 and these can melt into oblivion. Lucky I didn’t lose these in the heat.


----------



## plantnoobdude (2 Aug 2022)

Golden


----------



## plantnoobdude (2 Aug 2022)

Current dosing;
20:8:4
Ca:Mg:K
AT water change

NPK
according to marschner
1:0.13:0.66
4.4 No3
0.44 Po4
0.66K
From NH4NO3 and Urea, KH2PO4, K2SO4.
I dose this as needed. From 0 to 2ppm nitrogen weekly.

Currently I am dosing tropica micro nutrients clone I made. 
To 0.04 Fe weekly.
This doesn’t seem to be good? I am noticing several issues in plants which I haven’t seen in a while. The only thing I changed other than this is increasing gh…. I doubt that would cause leaf curling or stunting. This doesn’t work, I will try dosing tenso or go back to my custom lean mix.


----------



## plantnoobdude (5 Aug 2022)

The plants and soil in this tank has been moved to a 60p.



Basically just the same tank sooo, I kept the journal the same.

For now I won’t be dosing and I’ll just let the tank settle in. Figure out how much co2 I need first, then start dosing ferts.

My other tank will be Low tech, and there should be a journal for that soon!


----------



## erwin123 (5 Aug 2022)

Totally agree the first priority is to dial in the CO2 for the new tank before trying anything else.  

when you get a new tank, you think there's a lot of extra space , but actually after moving over the old plants... there's not much space left!


----------



## plantnoobdude (5 Aug 2022)

erwin123 said:


> Totally agree the first priority is to dial in the CO2 for the new tank before trying anything else.
> 
> when you get a new tank, you think there's a lot of extra space , but actually after moving over the old plants... there's not much space left!


I’ll be getting rid of a few sp soon, to make the tank more “Dutch”. Probably rotala indica, the buce, ludwigia palustris, and the lily. They just take up too much space and are not challenging to grow.


----------



## Hufsa (5 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I’ll be getting rid of a few sp soon, ... the buce,


You wot?! 
So you're sending them to me then? 😜


----------



## plantnoobdude (5 Aug 2022)

Hufsa said:


> You wot?!
> So you're sending them to me then? 😜


They’re going to the Low tech. None for you😆


----------



## plantnoobdude (8 Aug 2022)

Settling in, there is some stunting but that is to be expected since everything including soil was moved into another tank.  Co2 needs some work, just took a sample to degas. And need to calibrate the meter.




Installed an ATO since I am going on holiday soon.


----------



## Hufsa (8 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Installed an ATO since I am going on holiday soon.


Oh interesting, what product did you get?


----------



## plantnoobdude (8 Aug 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Oh interesting, what product did you get?











						Aquarium ATO Auto Top Up Off System DC Pump, Float Switch & Adjustable Mount  | eBay
					

Aquarium ATO Auto Top Up Off System DC Pump, Float Switch & Adjustable Mount with Snail Guard. Here we have an ATO Complete Kit With DC Pump, Float Switch, Adjustable Mount And Snail Guard - This can be supplied with a solenoid valve for direct connection to an RO system if required.



					www.ebay.co.uk
				



It’s an all in one system, quite nice so far. Testing it for a week or two before I go off.


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Aug 2022)

Everything seems reasonably happy. Except the Pantanal. I think the unhappiness  can be put down to two main things;
1. High temps due to fluctuating co2
2. Overly lean dosing (5ppm no3 equivelant from nh4no3) weekly and 0.05Fe from a tropica clone.

I don’t feel like increasing ferts till the heat sorts it’s self out so that can be ruled out as an issue.
Also planning on trying a few different micros soon.





Current dosing

1.25N NH4NO3
0.6 po4

Water change target
20ppm Ca
8ppm Mg
4 K

Micros

0.05Fe
0.0335 Mn
0.0025 B
And the rest I forgot.


----------



## GreggZ (14 Aug 2022)

Oops!


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Why not a little fun with a water reflection app.............
> 
> View attachment 192539


Ahem. Wrong thread?
Glad you’re reading my journal though,
😆


----------



## GreggZ (14 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Ahem. Wrong thread?
> Glad you’re reading my journal though,
> 😆


LOL typing too fast........Sorry about that!!


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Aug 2022)

GreggZ said:


> LOL typing too fast........Sorry about that!!


No worries. Nice pic!.


----------



## GreggZ (14 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> No worries. Nice pic!.


Thanks. And you are correct I am following your journal with interest.


----------



## milesjames (15 Aug 2022)

Hey @plantnoobdude 

Glad to be following then golden looks good. It tends to very susceptible to all algea topping and replanting is the correct choice. You may have issues later down the line as this plant I belive likes lean dosing vs your other plants. It can be a tricky plant to maintain when having a wide ranging plant needs.  

Though I throw my hands up @Erwin is the best on this this thread with this plant.  Erwin did we settle what ferts v lighting run best for colouration with golden?  Mine really took a battering from the BBA issues, so I never got to full lighting before I have to pull it.


----------



## plantnoobdude (15 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> It tends to very susceptible to all algea topping and replanting is the correct choice. You may have issues later down the line as this plant I belive likes lean dosing vs your other plants. It can be a tricky plant to maintain when having a wide ranging plant needs.


I have not found this plant to be anymore susceptible to algae then others. It only collects algae when stunted.
As for topping, I’m going to have to disagree, this plant does far better for me when I allow it to root well And let sideshoots establish.



milesjames said:


> I belive likes lean dosing vs


I am not sure about this either. I have dosed up to 3ppm Nitrigen weekly (15 No3 equivelant from nh4no3) and it does not stunt. I strongly believe using well formulated fertiliser is the best, whether it be lean or rich dosing.


milesjames said:


> ferts v lighting run best for colouration with golden


nutrient levels don’t  seem to matter much, seems light dependent so far. Light drives the system, Low light makes the systems inefficiencies unseen, high light will quickly high light issues, so be careful.


milesjames said:


> battering from the BBA issues


Interestingly, I have never really had bba issues, it is certainly not perfect co2 which allowed me to escape this beast, since at times I was running very Low co2, about 0.4 ph drop.

.


----------



## milesjames (15 Aug 2022)

It's interesting because my experience of this plant has been varied. At leaner dosing I found stronger colouration.  Lighting was in the medium range and co2 was accurately injected. I started the lighting system in the high end of low and brought it up incrementally. I found over the time I increased lighting the plant was heavily effected by algae this effected health over all.  

Intially I tried trimming leaving root system and replanting tops.  Tops did  better than initial shoots as they stunted badly causing leaf curl and poor growth. 

Ferts were intended to become richer to accommodate but this became pointless after BBA which I was managing took over.

I was able to combat this with a lil excel treatment after trying everything else.  But the golden was too far gone.  

I know me and Erwin spent alot of time discussing ferts as he is an advocate for rich dosing but wanted to know how I'd got the colouration. We were unable to fully test the lean v rich over long term due to BBA.  

Will definitely be using this plant again in the future so let me know how you get on.  😊


----------



## plantnoobdude (19 Aug 2022)

Made some fertilisers. These will be a baseline for the next few months.

This is a new mix based on numerous observations in the last few months.

Fe 0.0875ppm DTPA
Mn 0.0465ppm Edta
Zn 0.015ppm. EDTA
Cu 0.00275ppm EDTA
Mo 0.002ppm NH4
Ni. 0.00035ppm SO4
B. 0ppm

I took several micro nutrient recipes into consideration, while also considering marschners values. I also made a smaller batch in case I want to make another mix soon. In the future I would also like to test the effects of boron overdose/Toxicity

In the final micro mix I also tried a small dose of citric acid, 0.1g/500ml. If things go sour (pun intended),the losses will be minimal since this mix will only last a couple months. Next time I’ll try something else. It also acts as a weak chelate, so that may help.

_*Macro*_

Exact values do not matter too much, so this mix I decided to use nh4no3 and urea, while also reducing Tds by using KNO3 instead of k2so4 for a potassium source. All values should be in line With marschners.

0.84N Nh4no3
0.84N Urea
0.35N KNO3
0.26P KH2PO4

2ppm N
0.26ppm P
1.33 K


8.8 NO3, 0.8 PO4, 1.33 K


In the future I would also like to try following marschners A little closer. More details to follow perhaps. I also have some magnesium glycinate to try.

Pictures of the stock solutions and final solution for reference.




And a full tank shot as a prize for those who read this far and didn’t click off


----------



## erwin123 (20 Aug 2022)

milesjames said:


> I know me and Erwin spent alot of time discussing ferts as he is an advocate for rich dosing but wanted to know how I'd got the colouration. We were unable to fully test the lean v rich over long term due to BBA.
> 
> Will definitely be using this plant again in the future so let me know how you get on.  😊


It depends what you mean by rich dosing. 

Like I mentioned, I'm at APT complete levels for water column and rich substrate (aka 2hr aquarist style) but with some tweaking to have less K. To some that is lean, to some that is rich - that's why I just state how much I add rather than use words like 'lean' and 'rich' 

However, there are some posts that suggest that K is not a problem - as long as you have super soft water....


----------



## Freshflora (20 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Made some fertilisers. These will be a baseline for the next few months.
> 
> This is a new mix based on numerous observations in the last few months.
> 
> ...


Plants are looking impressive!  Especially the golden, pretty much as good as they can get in a high tech tank.  Curious as to why you decided to go with chelated micros and especially EDTA-chelated?


----------



## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

Freshflora said:


> Plants are looking impressive!  Especially the golden, pretty much as good as they can get in a high tech tank.


thank you, there are still many plant health issues however, wallichii looks pale, ludwigia Pantanal is curled and stunted, rotala macrandra is just being annoying, and for some reason I’m not able to get good growth from s repens. 

As for chelates, I’m guessing you read about edta toxicity on tpt? Or from Joe? Anyway, that is not an issue as long as you aren’t dosing huge amounts of micro nutrients (0.5ppm Fe). Those will just be precipitating anyway so, no use. Using chelates also makes it slowly available to plants and less toxic to fish, because of the slow photo-degradation that means you can dose once or twice a week if you’d like. I’m not sure you can do this with unchelated micros.


----------



## _Maq_ (20 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Using chelates also makes it slowly available to plants and less toxic to fish, because of the slow photo-degradation that means you can dose once or twice a week if you’d like. I’m not sure you can do this with unchelated micros.


EDTA decomposes slowly, some sources say around 4 weeks. Yet it never binds the same metal ion all the time! So, you can add Na-EDTA (pure EDTA is sparingly soluble) directly to the tank and it will form complexes (chelates) with any metal ions available according to EDTA affinity to each of them and to concentration of any of them. Par example, if you use ZnSO4 for dosing zinc, and Na-EDTA is present in the tank, some Zn ions will definitely form complex with Na-EDTA. On the other hand, if you add NaZn-EDTA, some Zn ions will definitely break free and remaining Na-EDTA will bind some other metal ion.
In short, the bond between a chelator and a metal ion is never absolutely stable. If it were, it could not be used as a fertilizer, anyway, because plants take up free ions! (There are suggestions that the whole complex may enter the plant's tissues but as far as I know there's remarkable uncertainty whether it really happens, and if yes, whether the metal ion can be successfully assimilated. - This is an open question to me, and I'll be grateful for an enlightenment, if anyone knows for sure.)


----------



## plantnoobdude (20 Aug 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> EDTA decomposes slowly, some sources say around 4 weeks. Yet it never binds the same metal ion all the time! So, you can add Na-EDTA (pure EDTA is sparingly soluble) directly to the tank and it will form complexes (chelates) with any metal ions available according to EDTA affinity to each of them and to concentration of any of them. Par example, if you use ZnSO4 for dosing zinc, and Na-EDTA is present in the tank, some Zn ions will definitely form complex with Na-EDTA. On the other hand, if you add NaZn-EDTA, some Zn ions will definitely break free and remaining Na-EDTA will bind some other metal ion.
> In short, the bond between a chelator and a metal ion is never absolutely stable. If it were, it could not be used as a fertilizer, anyway, because plants take up free ions! (There are suggestions that the whole complex may enter the plant's tissues but as far as I know there's remarkable uncertainty whether it really happens, and if yes, whether the metal ion can be successfully assimilated. - This is an open question to me, and I'll be grateful for an enlightenment, if anyone knows for sure.)


No answers here, but I do have a question 😅
Say you dose a compound chelated with EDTA, and it starts to form complexes with other metal ions, does it “choose” the most reactive metal? In the planted aquarium would potassium EDTA occur “naturally” if dosing high amounts of edta and potassium, to me this seems most logical since, potassium is often present in high amounts in hobbyist aquariums, and on top of that, it is quite a reactive metal. In terms of probability, say in my tank I have 4ppm potassium and dose 0.015ppm zinc weekly, i find it hard to believe that edta would form a complex with zinc over potassium, unless there is something fundamental im completely missing.


----------



## _Maq_ (20 Aug 2022)

The answer is *affinity*. EDTA, as well as any other chelating agent, has innate affinity to each metal ion. Monovalent alkali metals are excluded, so no worry about sodium and potassium. But Al3+, Ca2+, Mg2+ etc. may form complexes with EDTA. Yet EDTA was chosen because it has higher affinity for iron and other transition metals. This affinity has its units and metal ions can be ranked from 'most wanted' to 'lesser wanted'. But I don't keep the ranking in my head, and frankly, the details behind exceed my grasp. Enough to remember for us - laymen is that EDTA prefers transition metals, and iron in particular.


----------



## plantnoobdude (21 Aug 2022)

My favorite combination of plants🙂
Ludwigia Pantanal and ammannia pedicellata.


Just for you @Hufsa


----------



## TheOslo (21 Aug 2022)

Is that macrandra orange?


----------



## plantnoobdude (21 Aug 2022)

TheOslo said:


> Is that macrandra orange?


No, I have no such plant in my aquarium. If you were to tell me which one I could Id it for you!


----------



## Viet1357911 (27 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> My favorite combination of plants🙂
> Ludwigia Pantanal and ammannia pedicellata.View attachment 193032
> Just for you @Hufsa


Can u show me your water's parameter in this photo. Walichi got some problems, i usually increase Mg when i got this symptoms


----------



## plantnoobdude (27 Aug 2022)

Ca:Mg:K
20:8:4

Water change every few weeks, 20-30 percent.

Macro,

0.84N Nh4no3
0.84N Urea
0.35N KNO3
0.26P KH2PO4

2ppm N
0.26ppm P
1.33 K


8.8 NO3, 0.8 PO4, 1.33 K

Divide by 7 dose daily, most of the time I use this half strength.

Fe 0.0875ppm DTPA
Mn 0.0465ppm Edta
Zn 0.015ppm. EDTA
Cu 0.00275ppm EDTA
Mo 0.002ppm NH4
Ni. 0.00035ppm SO4
B. 0ppm

Dose daily divide by 7


----------



## plantnoobdude (28 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Ca:Mg:K
> 20:8:4
> 
> Water change every few weeks, 20-30 percent.
> ...


In case you didn’t see it 
@Viet1357911


----------



## Viet1357911 (29 Aug 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Ca:Mg:K
> 20:8:4
> 
> Water change every few weeks, 20-30 percent.
> ...


Thx for your info, its a bunch of Mg. Other plants look nice but walichi got some problem, i think Ca/Mg 10-4 give u better result.
Whats wrong with 10-4 🤔🤔


----------



## erwin123 (29 Aug 2022)

Wallichii can also grow well in EI dosing and lowtech... as long as water is soft.  Though colour may not be as nice as high tech.

Wallichii problems are often due to CO2 instability or any form of instability. But once parameters are stable, stunted shoots can recover by growing new sideshoots.


----------



## plantnoobdude (29 Aug 2022)

Viet1357911 said:


> Thx for your info, its a bunch of Mg. Other plants look nice but walichi got some problem, i think Ca/Mg 10-4 give u better result.
> Whats wrong with 10-4 🤔🤔


Will see how it looks when I get back from holiday, then adjust from there.




Did some moss collection recently.







First one is fontinalis, second one fissidens,   Last is riccardia.
Wish I could get a precise ID, but I’m not that skilled.


----------



## plantnoobdude (2 Sep 2022)

Went on holiday, came back to this mess…..  fuzz algae everywhere. Up on closer inspection the skimmer has stopped working, just glad my fish were fine! Probably due to the plant mass.

Challenge accepted!

Game plan:

Big 50% WC  trim and replant everything and rub off algae or rinse in water. (It runs of fairly easy, so lucky there.)

Get back on dosing, but reduced macros, 2ppm no3 equivalent weekly should suffice.

Weekly WC for the next month to get algae out, will be running a small firm sponge to capture algae spores, during water changes and daily.

Plant mass and health are incredible so there should 



be no problem getting this algae out.


----------



## milesjames (2 Sep 2022)

I feel your pain I'm nearly back to full health after the snail incident after my holiday. 

It might be worth if you are uprooting plants to do a dip with 1/5 excel for 10-15mins with non delicate plants. 

Its a bit aggressive I grant you but it'll get any algea out of heavy stem mass in no time and is far better than the other dip options.


----------



## plantnoobdude (2 Sep 2022)

milesjames said:


> 1/5 excel


Would you mind elaborating on the concentration?
 Not sure I need it tho, the algae really comes off easily and seems to be barely clinging to the plants. I don’t think the algae is very healthy at all.


----------



## milesjames (2 Sep 2022)

So I do 1 part excel to 5 parts water normally I mix up no more than 120ml (can be less for single plants). 

I just do the plants in batches whilst I rescape, just wait till the algea goes clear/red dependent on the type.


----------



## Wookii (7 Sep 2022)

milesjames said:


> So I do 1 part excel to 5 parts water normally I mix up no more than 120ml (can be less for single plants).
> 
> I just do the plants in batches whilst I rescape, just wait till the algea goes clear/red dependent on the type.



That's likely to  damage to the plant tissue at that kind of concentration - glut is a very strong chemical and damaging the plant tissues would end up causing more issues than it solves.

I'd just ride it out @plantnoobdude, and do manual removal and possibly daily water changes to siphon it off. I'd wager it'll disappear as fast as it appeared.


----------



## plantnoobdude (7 Sep 2022)

Wookii said:


> I'd just ride it out @plantnoobdude, and do manual removal and possibly daily water changes to siphon it off. I'd wager it'll disappear as fast as it appeared.


That’s what I did, big water change and trim. Got the skimmer running again. I’m not one for daily WC…. But I did do a slightly larger water change than usual!

All back on track.


----------



## plantnoobdude (17 Sep 2022)

Since then the tank got a massive bacterial bloom…. Not sure why to be honest.



Visibility barely over 30cm. For now stopped macros and just dosing Ca:Mg:K
Plus micros. Plants seem happy as ever so not exactly devastated. Not sure what my next step should be?


----------



## Libba (17 Sep 2022)

Why did you stop dosing macros? If I were having a bacterial bloom I'd just be trying to keep things steady and let the microbiome get settled again.


----------



## plantnoobdude (17 Sep 2022)

Libba said:


> Why did you stop dosing macros? If I were having a bacterial bloom I'd just be trying to keep things steady and let the microbiome get settled again.


Since I dose urea/Nh4No3 I was thinking the steady stream of ammonia dosed daily would make it impossible to get rid of the bacterial bloom.


----------



## _Maq_ (17 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Since I dose urea/Nh4No3 I was thinking the steady stream of ammonia dosed daily would make it impossible to get rid of the bacterial bloom.


Nitrates would have the same effect.
Most of those bacteria in the water column feed on dissolved organics, anyway.


----------



## plantnoobdude (17 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Most of those bacteria in the water column feed on dissolved organics, anyway.


So what would you suggest I do? I am not exactly sure what to do, since most advice online is pretty vague.


----------



## GreggZ (17 Sep 2022)

Easiest thing to do is run UV, it will clear it up overnight.


----------



## JoshP12 (17 Sep 2022)

Time.

system has been through a lot. UV will bandaid it but if you stop the UV before microbes have settled themselves out, it will just pop back.

If anything, the bloom is cleaning your system out.

Keep feeding plants evrything and they will clean the system + the bloom will clean the system. In a few weeks, gin clear water (whether you do daily water change or not).


----------



## plantnoobdude (17 Sep 2022)

GreggZ said:


> Easiest thing to do is run UV, it will clear it up overnight.


A UV would look rather unsightly in my tank, don’t forget it’s only a 60p. Quite costly as well…


JoshP12 said:


> Keep feeding plants evrything and they will clean the system + the bloom will clean the system. In a few weeks, gin clear water (whether you do daily water change or not).


Alright, I’ll do that. So full blast everything to speed it up. Slightly touched up temp and light is at max power as well. Will keep dosing tomorrow macros and micros. Fingers crossed it’ll clear up!

My standard wc regime is every few weeks 30-40%.


----------



## JoshP12 (17 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> A UV would look rather unsightly in my tank, don’t forget it’s only a 60p. Quite costly as well…
> 
> Alright, I’ll do that. So full blast everything to speed it up. Slightly touched up temp and light is at max power as well. Will keep dosing tomorrow macros and micros. Fingers crossed it’ll clear up!
> 
> My standard wc regime is every few weeks 30-40%.


Make sure co2 is on point.

Is exactly what I’ve done in the past!


----------



## erwin123 (18 Sep 2022)

I have a UV for in-temporary in-tank use on the day I do tank maintenance and remove algae from the glass, because inevitably there would be plenty of spores/algae in the water column, despite doing water change together with the maintenance. It costs less than those in-line models ($30 for what is essentially a 9w bulb and transformer in a glass sleeve +$4.50 for the shade) because there isn't any casing and also, no worries of leaks since its in the tank.


----------



## _Maq_ (18 Sep 2022)

Just my opinion...
The dangers presented by bacterial bloom are basically three:
(1) Bacteria increase oxygen demand, day & night (and increase CO2 content). That may harm not only animals but plants, too. They respire oxygen all day long, and while during photosynthesis they can rely on oxygen they produce, during night they are relegated to oxygen in the water column. If it's low, plants suffer, and may die off quickly. Because of it's rapid effect, low oxygen is far more deadly than lack of CO2 or nutrients.
(2) Once plants get troubled/damaged, they lack energy for defense against stressors, incl. facultative parasitic bacteria. The course of events may be disastrous.
(3) If the lack of oxygen gets serious, not only plants but bacteria themselves suffer. They die in large numbers and their dead cells contribute to the organic pollution. Beside that, they turn to anaerobic metabolism. That's always dangerous because anaerobic metabolism produces many unstable, only partially degraded organic compounds, many of which are outright poisonous to animals as well as plants.

Mind, I do not insist that these consequences must occur inevitably. Sometimes they do, other times not.
Be it me, I'd apply activated carbon, vigorous oxygenation, and multiple water changes. Never mind losing CO2. There's quite a lot of CO2 there due to bacterial respiration, and - as I've said - low CO2 does not kill. Low oxygen does.


----------



## JoshP12 (18 Sep 2022)

@_Maq_  makes a good point about oxygen and frankly it’s one of the reasons why I always run high light. 

@plantnoobdude increasing light, temp, etc have sped up the system (and temp has also reduced gases) - I don’t think it is a cause for concern if you pay attention. We tend to run tanks with massive turnover and high agitation as it is, pair that with good photosynthesis and oxygenate more at night. 

The oxygen consumption is a huge piece, but just pay attention - if you start to notice issues, change the water.


----------



## plantnoobdude (18 Sep 2022)

Are these concerns surrounding oxygen still valid when the tank is pearling vigorously through out the photo period? Are these concerns mainly for “night time”? I can oxygenate more at night so I may start doing that, I have a feeling it’d help everything.


----------



## plantnoobdude (18 Sep 2022)

nice WC done. Nice to be able to see the tank a bit more….
Some stuff looks a bit ratty due to well uhhh, lack of light but other than that everything is cool.


----------



## plantnoobdude (18 Sep 2022)

Welp….. I blame you @erwin123 your pantanals bad behaviour influenced mine…


----------



## dw1305 (18 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


plantnoobdude said:


> Are these concerns surrounding oxygen still valid when the tank is pearling vigorously through out the photo period? Are these concerns mainly for “night time”?


You can still get pearling in water with a very high bioload and  BOD, <"A question, dissolved oxygen and a pond">, and in that case it would be possible for there to be low oxygenation problems  at night, but away from that scenario then no it isn't a valid concern and your tank <"will remain high"> in dissolved oxygen <"throughout  the dark period">.


plantnoobdude said:


> Are these concerns mainly for “night time”?


That was one of the bones of contention in the <"_plants have killed my fish_"> threads on other forums. I've told people that if you don't have plants "_it is always night"_, and that plants are massively net oxygen producers and it hasn't always <"gone down very well">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## John q (18 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Are these concerns surrounding oxygen still valid when the tank is pearling vigorously through out the photo period


WelI.   Seems  oxygen depletion is the latest fad... i work on the principle that if  my fish survive the night, then I assume the plants will be ok. Could be wrong... enter the rabbit hole at your peril 😁


----------



## dw1305 (18 Sep 2022)

Hi all,





John q said:


> ..... I work on the principle that if  my fish survive the night, then I assume the plants will be ok.


and I think that is a pretty fair assumption.

Cheers Darrel


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2022)

Clearing up, all on full blast.


----------



## _Maq_ (23 Sep 2022)

Your Toninas are pretty big! Maybe twice as robust as mine...


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Your Toninas are pretty big! Maybe twice as robust as mine...


The tonina in my Low tech, inert substrate tank are much smaller in size, if that makes you feel Any better😂


----------



## Hufsa (23 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> The tonina in my Low tech, inert substrate tank are much smaller in size, if that makes you feel Any better😂


Carbon is a helluva drug


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Sep 2022)

Really out of focus but you get the idea lol


----------



## _Maq_ (24 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> The tonina in my Low tech, inert substrate tank are much smaller in size, if that makes you feel Any better


Tonina is not an easy species. In fact, I'm happy (and proud) to keep it alive & well, growing without apparent nutrient deficiencies. Still, the difference in size is remarkable.


----------



## plantnoobdude (2 Oct 2022)

Swapped over to sand… had some free time and well, things happen


I have a few notes and plans to share, but more on that later tonight.


----------



## plantnoobdude (3 Oct 2022)

So, why did I swap to sand?

Aqua soil gets really disgusting without weekly cleaning, I really just don’t have time to clean it weekly. So fine sand should keep most of the detritus above the substrate layer.

Secondly, I moved to sand to further test marschners ratios. Currently my dosing still stays the same as aqua soil, not really seeing any difference, but it’s only been two days… but in the future I am planning on reducing my gh even further and dosing very Low macro+micros. Something like this:

5Ca target
2Mg target
1 K
(TDS should be bang on 20ppm with above dosed to RO.)

0.01-0.02 Fe DTPAproxy weekly dosed

Nitrogen dosed as always 
1-2ppm N
0.13-0.26 P
0.66K
Weekly macros

kh 0.25 or similar. Aiming to get a bit more ph stability for co2/pH checking purposes.

Water change every few weeks

The tank is currently on 90% sand. I know for a fact, tonina, cuphea, lud senegalensis, will do great in sand substrate.
Wasn’t sure my eriocaulon quinquangulare and centrolepis drummondiana would do well in full sand, as I haven’t seen any reports of successful cultivation in inert substrate. So I am trying a few of each of those species in sand.

Got some new plants as well in the main. Absolutely no space anywhere but who cares. 
Cryptocoryne rosen maiden
Syngonanthus sp giant.

I always envied hufsa and her precious crypts so I decided to ease my self in with the Nurii. Sp giant is just to get revenge on an old friend, scroll back a few pages and you’ll see me kill it brutally under EI.




The ammannia just sensed something was wrong and 2/5 stems stunted lol. Everything else seems fine. Rotala hra is really red so I’m guessing my NO3 is pretty Low. 

Really excited to see how far I can push the tank with sand. 

Sand tank folk stick together @Hufsa 😂 I’m preparing my self for a world of hurt and pain.


----------



## Hufsa (3 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Sand tank folk stick together @Hufsa 😂 I’m preparing my self for a world of hurt and pain.


So excited to have a sand buddy 😍🤩🥳
A small dark part of me wants to see your plants struggle a little bit in the sand, to make myself feel better about my struggles. 
But the rest of me thinks that is very mean and I think you will probably totally nail this too 😃 (just to spite me 😭)
Watch out for low dosing, your plants might hit the wall without the soil to back them up. But I bet you will be watching very closely


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## _Maq_ (3 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Really excited to see how far I can push the tank with sand.


An interesting testimony of the twists of the Earth. Some 20 years ago most hobbyists ran on silica sand and those who didn't felt like adventurers.


Hufsa said:


> Watch out for low dosing


Confirm from here. I've been attempting to emulate natural biotopes, i.e. very low nutrients by our standards. It can be done if you dose every day. I'm way too lazy for that.


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## Hufsa (3 Oct 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I've been attempting to emulate natural biotopes, i.e. very low nutrients by our standards.


I think the problem with trying to emulate natural biotopes is that what we want in our tanks are sometimes nothing like natural biotopes. At least Ive never heard of a river that looks like plantnoobdude's tank. Not even the relatively species rich karst ones.
Also I sometimes wonder if even daily dosing of nutrients cannot be compared to the constant run-through of new replenished water, if it is quite different feeling to the plant, and that maybe this is why "nature can get away with dosing so little". In other words the amount is low but the availability is near constant.
But I shouldnt derail @plantnoobdude 's journal so I will leave it at this 😁


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## plantnoobdude (3 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> So excited to have a sand buddy 😍🤩🥳


Yayyy



Hufsa said:


> Watch out for low dosing, your plants might hit the wall without the soil to back them up. But I bet you will be watching very closely


I see I see. My eyes are wide open to spot any signs deficiency.


_Maq_ said:


> An interesting testimony of the twists of the Earth. Some 20 years ago most hobbyists ran on silica sand and those who didn't felt like adventurers.


That is true. Quite interesting haha.


_Maq_ said:


> It can be done if you dose every day


I have no problem with daily dosing.


Hufsa said:


> what we want in our tanks are sometimes nothing like natural biotopes. At least Ive never heard of a river that looks like plantnoobdude's tank


very good point, nature’s plants often look very uhmmm natural. 


Hufsa said:


> But I shouldnt derail @plantnoobdude 's journal so I will leave it at this 😁


I really don’t mind, in fact I find it quite interesting!


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## KirstyF (3 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> So excited to have a sand buddy 😍🤩🥳
> A small dark part of me wants to see your plants struggle a little bit in the sand, to make myself feel better about my struggles.
> But the rest of me thinks that is very mean and I think you will probably totally nail this too 😃 (just to spite me 😭)





plantnoobdude said:


> I’m preparing my self for a world of hurt and pain



That’ll be @Hufsa sticking pins in her JuJu doll. 😉😂


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## plantnoobdude (8 Oct 2022)

All things considered things aren’t going too bad.


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## Hufsa (8 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> All things considered things aren’t going too bad.
> View attachment 195497


Hard to see on the picture, I hope im very wrong but is there the start of some BGA on the leaves midway on Pantanal?
Or hopefully just thicc green dust algae


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## plantnoobdude (8 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Hard to see on the picture, I hope im very wrong but is there the start of some BGA on the leaves midway on Pantanal?
> Or hopefully just thicc green dust algae


I’m not sure if it’s bga. I thinks it’s just fluffy green algae. It doesn’t smell of much.
Wouldn’t cyano usually attack substrate? Near the glass, anyway, there’s none against the glass.


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## Hufsa (8 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I’m not sure if it’s bga. I thinks it’s just fluffy green algae. It doesn’t smell of much.
> Wouldn’t cyano usually attack substrate? Near the glass, anyway, there’s none against the glass.


Cyano should stink very aggressively foresty/boggy. Like too much / in a bad way. Cyano can sometimes grow on plants if they do very poorly. I checked some of the older pics where the hue is different, looks more like very well fed GDA 😁👍


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## Freshflora (8 Oct 2022)

Those toninas are some thick boys


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## plantnoobdude (8 Oct 2022)

Freshflora said:


> Those toninas are some thick boys


Very easy plants😁 never complain about dosing.


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## plantnoobdude (9 Oct 2022)

Guess what happened after changing to sand? Bacterial bloom plus green water lol. System reset basically.



Got some new plants, a syn and crypt nurii rosen maiden.

Actually considering getting the sand pots out because the quinquangulare and blood vomit are growing fairly well outside in sand.
The hacked down ammannia are making some tiny side shoots which should grow in well, not sure how they’ll do in sand, but excited to see. It really is my favourite plant so if it doesn’t do too well it’ll be put in a pot of soil because I know I can grow it in soil consistently.

Interestingly, some of my Pantanal converted back to the fine flowery leaves from the ugly “emmersed“ form. All in all the Pantanal are doing pretty well.






Even after a weeks shipping delays by Royal Mail, the plants are doing pretty well. Thanks to @Roland !


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## plantnoobdude (16 Oct 2022)

Fast forward a bit andddd





Good news: plants lookin really good


_



_
Ludwigia Pantanal and macrandra doing well .two of the hardest plants in my tank🙂 

Fairly sure the wallichii is doing well but uhm I can’t really see it. There’s some fuzzy algae on some stuff but not too fussed yet. Guess I’ll just have to wait for now.


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## plantnoobdude (19 Oct 2022)

Here are some Eriocaulon quinquangulare plantlets.
I always read that these would only grow in nutrient rich soil. And I certainly know I’ve told a fair amount of people that…
Welp I decided to “test” my beliefs






Aqua soil specimens at the top and sand at the bottom….

Well what do you know? They grow fine, just fine in sand… in fact the only plant that actually suffered from swapping to sand is ammannia pedicellata. That’s just being sulky right now. 🥲 rotala Mac, Pantanal, wallichii, cuphea all growing well/better..

Sand specimens were placed in slightly less favourable positions e.g. less light, flow.( Due to space reasons.) and aqua soil specimens were in the middle of the tank. (This may account for plant size difference). Also if I recall I may have used scraps from splitting and not full planlets to start of the ones in sand.

But what I want people to notice is the root health, the plants in sand maintained brightly coloured white and fleshy roots  where as the aqua soils plants which had browning and melting in the roots.
The sand specimens grew almost as well as soil Id say. So, for anyone reading this, if you have an inert substrate eriocaulon quinqunagulare may still be an option!

I have a *feeling *that the tank should and will be clearing up soon. But not yet…


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## Hufsa (19 Oct 2022)




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## erwin123 (20 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I have a *feeling *that the tank should and will be clearing up soon. But not yet…



have you considered 50  micron polishing pads - they really remove a lot of stuff


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## JoshP12 (20 Oct 2022)

Lovely @plantnoobdude

I think you’ve found these perfect column targets as demonstrated by the root structure on the erio.

I bet you could invert those results by adjusting your column the other way. What I mean is if you start increasing probably potassium and phosphate and then scale the rest up, you may get healthier results in the soil erio vs the sand.

Now that’s neat. Thanks for sharing!


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## _Maq_ (20 Oct 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> I bet you could invert those results by adjusting your column the other way. What I mean is if you start increasing probably potassium and phosphate and then scale the rest up, you may get healthier results in the soil erio vs the sand.


No. The healthy appearance of roots depends on other variables.


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## JoshP12 (20 Oct 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> No. The healthy appearance of roots depends on other variables.


I struggle to believe that root structure has nothing to do with water column parameters. Water column being a subset of influences, sure.


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## _Maq_ (20 Oct 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> I struggle to believe that root structure has nothing to do with water column parameters.


Well, yes, but "water column parameters" may cover almost anything, par example extreme temperature (boiling water). Yet you developed your idea in the direction of adjusting fertilization, as I understood. To that, I say it's of marginal importance for roots' health. It may affect roots' length, though.


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## plantnoobdude (22 Oct 2022)

Some promising side shoots from pedicellata. 




Tank as a whole seems to be calming its self down. It has some green algae here and there but Not too bothered as the plants and algae seem to coexist just fine.
Might get a UV like @erwin123  and run it post WC




Whole tank finally clearing up.. can finally see the back of my tank. Syns seem to have been settling in the back and the rest seem quite good in terms of plants health.

Wallichii seems to be chugging a long and had to thin it back. Same as Pantanal.
Guessing the tank clearing up will stunt some plants, more light blah blah blah. So I need to keep co2 on point, just washed out the diffuser in bleach.


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## JoshP12 (22 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Might get a UV like @erwin123  and run it post WC


The first time I blasted through it, I waited. Was neat. The first time… hahaha! 

In tandem with you now, and I’ve flicked on UV just to get on with the “end result”.


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## plantnoobdude (22 Oct 2022)

Any suggestions for an in tank UV for post WC from UK folks? Can’t be too expensive, perhaps @KirstyF ?


JoshP12 said:


> The first time I blasted through it, I waited. Was neat. The first time… hahaha!


Pretty cool not gonna lie, I was quite
sceptic of you saying it’d clear up on its own, but what do ya know it’s almost as if  after two three weeks a switch had gone off and in amatter of days it cleared up. Just waiting for the same to happen
now, well it already has!






Couple days difference


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## KirstyF (22 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Any suggestions for an in tank UV for post WC from UK folks? Can’t be too expensive, perhaps @KirstyF ?



I would love to help buddy but mine looks like this….and the cabinet is 2ft deep!! So……I don’t think that’s really what you are after 😂




The Vectons are highly rated and they do much smaller versions, so for an external I would certainly recommend, but I’m not sure they do an in-tank version.

It’s the only one I’ve ever used so I couldn’t give you a genuine recommendation on anything else tbf! 🙁


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## erwin123 (23 Oct 2022)

submersible UV are quite common in Asia, I surfed a couple of UK sites but they don't seem to be sold in UK - possible legal liability if someone goes blind? (btw I cover my tank up when the UV is on so no UV leaks out - though supposedly aquarium glass should absorb a fair bit of it)









						Fish lovers, beware: Singapore man blinded by pond's UV lamp
					

SINGAPORE - The next time you're cleaning your fish pond, remember to turn off the ultraviolet (UV) sterilisation lamp in the pond. Mr Andy Ng, 34, a car dealer, was partially blinded for half-a-day after leaving the UV sterilisation lamp inside his fish pond on while he was cleaning it for the...




					www.asiaone.com


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## plantnoobdude (24 Oct 2022)

erwin123 said:


> submersible UV are quite common in Asia, I surfed a couple of UK sites but they don't seem to be sold in UK - possible legal liability if someone goes blind? (btw I cover my tank up when the UV is on so no UV leaks out - though supposedly aquarium glass should absorb a fair bit of it)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that is scary😲
I’ll do a search on suitable fixtures and see what I can find.


KirstyF said:


> I would love to help buddy but mine looks like this….and the cabinet is 2ft deep!!


Just a bit too big perhaps. Haha

Anyway the tank is clearing up but I still have some algae, just the fluffy green kind. Nothing else, zero gsa, bba, staghorn or nasty stuff. I’ll probably just keep my dosing at 1N and 0.0875 Fe weekly for now and let the plants over grow and see where that gets me, in combination with some extra precautions such as a fine sponge in my skimmer. 





Tank prolly would like a water change but haven’t gotten round to for the last few weeks. TDS has risen a bit since I haven’t been to accurate with remin salts either. Need some effort to get everything back to my ‘golden numbers’ knowing everything that’s in the column just sits well with me for some reason.
Before my TDS with remin salts + K would sit at 79-81 ppm and the tank stayed Maybe one or two ppm higher than that and just sat there. Now it sits at ~110 ppm
Perhaps I should stop fretting but yeah, perhaps the sand is leaching some stuff or maybe it’s my remin that was done by eye.
Plants look happy enough for now so🤷‍♀️


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## plantnoobdude (29 Oct 2022)

Plant are happy but I have that flufff dust algae plus column bloom… the algae comes off if I just rub it lightly… yeah it’s not serious stuff, seems my tank and @JoshP12 ’s tank are going through the same thing. Plants seem happy enough, pedicellata unstinted but the Pantanal seems a bit angry, the stems are not stunning massively but they are smaller than I’d like. Mac doing really well.
Just needa remake remineraliser so I can dose at WC more accurately.


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## JoshP12 (29 Oct 2022)

Definitely the same thing!! What triggered your bloom - do you remember?


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## plantnoobdude (29 Oct 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Definitely the same thing!! What triggered your bloom - do you remember?


First bloom, triggered by tank being left alone and skimmer malfunction. O2 availability I’m guessing.
Second bloom, full substrate reset. Before the second bloom the tank completely cleared up, but the swap to sand was still too much for the system.


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## JoshP12 (29 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> First bloom, triggered by tank being left alone and skimmer malfunction. O2 availability I’m guessing.
> Second bloom, full substrate reset. Before the second bloom the tank completely cleared up, but the swap to sand was still too much for the system.


Basically same as me then - complete start up and reset. 

System in turmoil - plants are fine. 

Kind of bizarre. If we didn’t have the plants taken care of, then what do we think would happen? Which algaes would show?


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## plantnoobdude (30 Oct 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Basically same as me then - complete start up and reset.
> 
> System in turmoil - plants are fine.
> 
> Kind of bizarre. If we didn’t have the plants taken care of, then what do we think would happen? Which algaes would show?


Dunno, but I know for sure I have zero BBA, Staghorn, GSA, thread algae.
 I doubt that’d be the case if plants were unhappy. I don’t think algae such as (bba, staghorn) are related as much to co2, more so the unhappy plants. I remember happi  did an experiment where he overdosed trace metals in soft water, this triggered BBA in an otherwise algae free tank. Something like 0.5B 0.2 Zn if I remember correctly.  Maybe plants will succumb to Low co2 levels over time and attract BBA, but I don’t think co2/flow is the only issue. 
When running EI I had a urine yellow drop checker and fish on edge, I still had huge amounts of staghorn. I had something like 20-30 times turnover as well…. Now I run less co2, much less nutrients,  more light and less flow, recipe for disaster perhaps? But the plants that were previously struggling now do reasonably well. With much less input from me.  When running Ei I remember cleaning leaves from the skimmer weekly, that rarely happens and plants stay healthy all the way to the bottom even where flow and co2 availability is greatly reduced. That’s all the proof I need for me to continue my current dosing.


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## JoshP12 (30 Oct 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Dunno, but I know for sure I have zero BBA, Staghorn, GSA, thread algae.
> I doubt that’d be the case if plants were unhappy. I don’t think algae such as (bba, staghorn) are related as much to co2, more so the unhappy plants. I remember happi  did an experiment where he overdosed trace metals in soft water, this triggered BBA in an otherwise algae free tank. Something like 0.5B 0.2 Zn if I remember correctly.  Maybe plants will succumb to Low co2 levels over time and attract BBA, but I don’t think co2/flow is the only issue.
> When running EI I had a urine yellow drop checker and fish on edge, I still had huge amounts of staghorn. I had something like 20-30 times turnover as well…. Now I run less co2, much less nutrients,  more light and less flow, recipe for disaster perhaps? But the plants that were previously struggling now do reasonably well. With much less input from me.  When running Ei I remember cleaning leaves from the skimmer weekly, that rarely happens and plants stay healthy all the way to the bottom even where flow and co2 availability is greatly reduced. That’s all the proof I need for me to continue my current dosing.



Thanks for sharing that.

To be honest, EI makes the water column unnecessarily complex. If you have hard water, EI matches it in complexity, but if you have soft - it’s just unnecessary.

EI in hard water is 1/5 EI in soft water - these are the “same systems” in behaviour.

And then add the complexity of urea/ammonia/nitrate balance and then toss co2 and metabolism into the mix - it’s a nightmare especially if you start ramping up on nitrate (and not the rest) …


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## plantnoobdude (5 Nov 2022)

That fluffy algae going out. With the help of some manual maintenance ( wafting my hand round plus paper towel in the skimmer to remove spores.) did that a couple weeks ago and seems to have helped. For a while thought the tank would completely clear out in terms of the  column, but it seems to have come back a bit.
Oh well plants seem happy enough.


 
Tonina planting inspired by the one and only @Hufsa 
Oh, and  I actually haven’t done a water change since this whole bloom thing…. Those just seemed to make it worse last time!


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## _Maq_ (6 Nov 2022)

Years ago, I've experienced a bloom in a new tank which lasted endlessly. It was NOT a bacterial bloom. Some sands may contain particles too small to settle (due to Brownian motion).


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## Laoshan (6 Nov 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Oh, and I actually haven’t done a water change since this whole bloom thing…. Those just seemed to make it worse last time!





_Maq_ said:


> Years ago, I've experienced a bloom in a new tank which lasted endlessly. It was NOT a bacterial bloom. Some sands may contain particles too small to settle (due to Brownian motion)


If the cloudiness is not of bacterial or other biological origin then a few water changes should solve it don’t you think? Every WC removes a fraction of the suspended particles until they are no longer visible (and the filter takes care of the rest). I think a persistent cloudiness is more likely biological. Unless there is catfish or the like continuously disturbing the substrate.


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## _Maq_ (6 Nov 2022)

Laoshan said:


> a few water changes should solve it don’t you think?


Of course. It lasted two months because I didn't WC during cycling. Once I began WCs, I gradually diluted the bloom into invisible.
But, if I'm not mistaken, @plantnoobdude didn't change water since the bloom appeared.


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## plantnoobdude (6 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Of course. It lasted two months because I didn't WC during cycling. Once I began WCs, I gradually diluted the bloom into invisible.
> But, if I'm not mistaken, @plantnoobdude didn't change water since the bloom appeared.


Well, I think I did  _one _water change in the early days of the bloom. But that seemed to accelerate the bloom greatly. So I have since stopped. But the bloom actually started to go out, but then came back again. Interesting stuff.


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## Happi (6 Nov 2022)

@plantnoobdude  throw some daphnia in there


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## Hanuman (6 Nov 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Well what do you know? They grow fine, just fine in sand… in fact the only plant that actually suffered from swapping to sand is ammannia pedicellata. That’s just being sulky right now. 🥲 rotala Mac, Pantanal, wallichii, cuphea all growing well/better..
> 
> Sand specimens were placed in slightly less favourable positions e.g. less light, flow.( Due to space reasons.) and aqua soil specimens were in the middle of the tank. (This may account for plant size difference). Also if I recall I may have used scraps from splitting and not full planlets to start of the ones in sand.
> 
> ...


As long as they get their CO2 they'll grow. It's not like other hungrier erios which can melt rapidly if soil is deficient or poor in nutrients. I have had E. Quin under shadow for several months and it would still grow, albeit at a very slow pace.
Here are the ones I just removed from my smaller high tech tank 2-3 weeks ago grown under clean loaded soil. The root system is huge and they have just been in the tank for 3 months.


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## erwin123 (7 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Years ago, I've experienced a bloom in a new tank which lasted endlessly. It was NOT a bacterial bloom. Some sands may contain particles too small to settle (due to Brownian motion).


A 50 micron polishing pad should be able to clear the water if it is sediment and not bacterial.


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## _Maq_ (7 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> erios which can melt rapidly if soil is deficient or poor in nutrients.


I'm pretty sure that that widespread belief that Eriocaulons require rich substrate is wrong. They possess huge roots because they acquire CO2 through roots. Their natural habitats are in fact pretty poor in nutrients. Consequently, there's low microbial population around, low biological oxygen demand, and thus low CO2 concentration. That's why Eriocaulons exude sugars and oxygen through their roots, 'cultivate' microbes in their rhizosphere and take up CO2 generated. Microbes also help with nutrients acquisition.
Littorella is another species for which this behaviour has been described in literature. It also inhabits oligotrophic waters. I personally suspect that Blyxa might be another example.


erwin123 said:


> A 50 micron polishing pad should be able to clear the water if it is sediment and not bacterial.


Nope. There's a fraction which cannot be filtered. Much smaller than 50 microns.


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I'm pretty sure that that widespread belief that Eriocaulons require rich substrate is wrong. They possess huge roots because they acquire CO2 through roots. Their natural habitats are in fact pretty poor in nutrients. Consequently, there's low microbial population around, low biological oxygen demand, and thus low CO2 concentration.


That is a very broad statement that is not a belief but a reality, which I, and many others, have experienced first hand. Not every Eriocaulon species lives in poor substrate habitats to start with.
I have grown a good half a dozen different eriocaulon species and some do require a rich substrate and are very finicky. To state one, E. ratnagiricum. This little fellow will tell you in a matter of days if the soil is empty to his liking and will melt in a matter of 2 or 3 days. Some E. cinerum sp. as well but to a lesser degree and can withstand better a less than ideal substrate and will start sending flowers stalks at a fast rate. I have been able to send plants which were in flowering state into vegetative state by merely incorporating an osmocote balls under them. E. Vietnam on the other hand, that's a survivor. I've had in a good two month in a bowl with only water and it refused to die.

Now I don't pretend to be a botanist or know all the biological intricacies about Eriocaulon, but experience surely is worth something?


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## KirstyF (7 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I personally suspect that Blyxa might be another example.



I can vouch for Blyxa. Mine is absolutely romping away in sand! 😊


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## KirstyF (7 Nov 2022)

And for @Hanuman …….

Cos if there’s no pics….it didn’t happen. 😂


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

KirstyF said:


> And for @Hanuman …….
> 
> Cos if there’s no pics….it didn’t happen. 😂
> View attachment 197417


lol - Yeah, blyxa is for noobs. 😂


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## _Maq_ (7 Nov 2022)

KirstyF said:


> Blyxa. Mine is absolutely romping away in sand!


Sand or whatever... My point is that Eriocaulons acquire CO2 through roots, and that's why their roots are so strong. And I suspect that Blyxa is similar case.


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## JoshP12 (7 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Sand or whatever... My point is that Eriocaulons acquire CO2 through roots, and that's why their roots are so strong. And I suspect that Blyxa is similar case.


Can we alter root “stuff” (length, thickness, etc)  by supplementing co2 in the water?

Anyone ever noticed?


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Can we alter root “stuff” (length, thickness, etc)  by supplementing co2 in the water?
> 
> Anyone ever noticed?


My experience is that it is largely dependent on soil cleanness. When I grow erios in a soil that that has sediment and dust (even if the soil is rich), root will tend to grow smaller and will be weaker and brown. On the contrary when the soil is clean, the root system will spread and roots will be thick and white as you can see in the picture above.


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## _Maq_ (7 Nov 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Can we reduce root “stuff” (length, thickness, etc) by supplementing co2 in the water?


Of that I'm not sure. But I've speculated that poor roots of tissue-culture plants might be the reason why they often struggle when planted into aquarium, especially when not injecting CO2.
My problem with Eriocaulons is that - compared to @Hanuman and others - not many species are readily (and for reasonable price) available in my region. My experience is limited, and not always successful. At this moment, my E. Goiás are doing well, while E. cinereum struggling. Both is acidic water, silica sand, lean dosing.


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

Hanuman said:


> My experience is that it is largely dependent on soil cleanness. When I grow erios in a soil that that has sediment and dust (even if the soil is rich), root will tend to grow smaller and will be weaker and brown. On the contrary when the soil is clean, the root system will spread and roots will be thick and white as you can see in the picture above.


Forgot to say that I had plenty of CO2 when growing these erios. For some of them, no CO2 injection means death.


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


Hanuman said:


> biological intricacies about Eriocaulon


I don't know about the seasonally inundated or terrestrial tropical species, but the temperate region aquatic_ Eriocaulon_ spp. are really strange.

As @_Maq_ says they belong to a group of (unrelated) plants, referred to as "Isoetids" (after one of their number, the pteridophyte _Isoetes)._

 <"The isoetid environment: Biogeochemistry and threats">.


> _..... Isoetid species are small, slow-growing, evergreen water plants with thick, stiff leaves or stems that form basal rosettes and have a proportionally large below ground biomass. Isoetids often dominate carbonate poor (weakly buffered) and nutrient poor (oligotrophic) water and are characterized by a (very) slow growth rate. The special adaptations to oligotrophic conditions enable them to grow where other plants are unable to thrive. The high porosity of the plants as a whole and the permeability of the roots in combination with the very low permeability of the leaves enable the efficient use of carbon dioxide from the sediment and also the oxidation of the sediment. The oxidation of the sediments helps them to create and maintain oligotrophic conditions._


These would look "Isoetid", big root, stiff leaves etc.





cheers Darrel


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## Hanuman (7 Nov 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> At this moment, my E. Goiás are doing well, while E. cinereum struggling. Both is acidic water, silica sand, lean dosing.


I haven't grown E. Goias but E, cinerum I have. Many of these erio also need soft water with low KH and require high lighting. Some more so than others.


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## erwin123 (8 Nov 2022)

https://www.nparks.gov.sg/-/media/sbg/flora-of-singapore/volume-7-poales/7,-d-,3,-d-,-eriocaulaceae_lr.ashx
		





article  on Eriocaulaceae for info.


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## plantnoobdude (8 Nov 2022)

dw1305 said:


> cheers Darrel


Were these fed heavily? @Hanuman  . The leaves seem to be taking on a darker green shade and I quite like it😍  
As for the ratnagiri, I will try source it and grow some😀 (initially in soil, then plant excess in sand) maybe replace the blood vomit as they are rather boring.


----------



## Hanuman (8 Nov 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Were these fed heavily? @Hanuman  . The leaves seem to be taking on a darker green shade and I quite like it😍
> As for the ratnagiri, I will try source it and grow some😀 (initially in soil, then plant excess in sand) maybe replace the blood vomit as they are rather boring.


Root feed mostly and the soil was clean. That tank was only setup 3-4 months ago with a mix of old+new soil+root tabs. I was using an AIO DIY APT 3 clone on that tank and I was doing heavy WCs (~85% weekly). I think I was also under dosing (probably miscalculation of volume) because the Syngonanthus macrocaulon was yellowing at the bottom. It's the only real deficiency I noticed in the plants in that tank though.

The green shade is mostly due to sufficient nitrate else the plant would be mostly reddish. Since I sell them I prefer the plants being in good shape rather than being deficient and then melting quickly in customer's tanks.


plantnoobdude said:


> then plant excess in sand


Let us know how that goes. Never tried growing them in sand but as long as they are fed I guess perhaps they should grow. E. Rat are found only in India on lateritic plateaus in the Ratnagiri district, thus their name. My experience is that they do no tolerate any shadowing and require moderate to high lighting with plenty CO2.


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 Nov 2022)

Look at these tiny Pantanal/Cuba/macs… almost comical😅
@JoshP12

These are at about a quarter of the size I’d want them… for anyone that doesn’t know, these plants are beasts and the diameter of them can get easily 3inches plus.

Properly limited system😂 BUT!!! They are “healthy” in the sense that they are clean and not stunted.

This is the first wc for a month or so, and I’m making up a new “custom” micro mix. With some tasty boron for my starved friends.


----------



## JoshP12 (12 Nov 2022)

So excited to see the expansion from boron!


----------



## plantnoobdude (12 Nov 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> So excited to see the expansion from boron!


Fairly confident I’ll see it in a week or so…. Tank should clear up in a month or so if boron was the problem.


----------



## plantnoobdude (13 Nov 2022)

Just dun it


Do I get a medal?

Feels good to be productive, did WC on both tanks today, and co2 maintenance. Ordered some shrimp for the Low tech as well. Anyway, this micro mixing stuff is a nightmare, at least I have enough for the next 3 months. 

For the record, above doses in the pic are cut in half.

This mix (without B) in soil lead to best possible results for me. Clean, faultless, fast growth from wallichii, Pantanal, ammannia, Macs. So fairly confident it’ll work well with B in sand.

As for macros,
Dosing a super top secret blend of KNO3+UREA+NH4NO3… not really I just couldn’t be bothered to get the numbers up. For me, 4.5 NO3 equivalent  seems to be a good number for weekly uptake. I could dose that and not see any TDS rise even without WC. 

Anyway, I also remade my remineraliser. So I can dose the tank to bang on 80TDS. It worked out perfectly and the RO wc water was perfect going in, but obviously tank params influenced it a lot And the tank is currently sitting at ~100TDS, curious to see if this drops with additional boron.

Ca:Mg:K 
As always, 20:8:4
These numbers pair well with:
0.0875 Fe
1N
0.13P
0.66K
(Weekly)

As for the plants recently noticed some puckered tops on wallichii, which was previously doing well, guess it eventually succumbed to deficiency. Ammannia pedicellata is growing well and clean but looks scorched and has red patches. Looks identical to the plants posted in this thread.









						Ammannia Pedicatella 'Golden'
					

Will pm @Yugang.



					www.ukaps.org
				




oh well that’s all for now😅


----------



## plantnoobdude (19 Nov 2022)

Started B… algae… column musta been severely limiting then.
Feel like co2 gonna run out soon, so I took out the erios, just don’t have time to coddle it and be worried sick…. It’ll melt into oblivion if co2 is off for maybe even two days. Now I have them emmersed, I can always add them later.








Best wallichii I’ve grown so far. Top to bottom clean uncrinkled growth…. No blackening of stems





Pedicellata, macs… doing well. No stunting clean leaves. Ammania looks bit scorched but new leaves fine….



Plants growing fasttt can tell plant growth isn’t as limited now. Added some bacopa Colorata and ludwigia red. These are super easy growers, will contribute to over all plant mass which is my current goal.  


Syns adapted to tank. Seemed a bit cross with limited column, but new dosing and it greened up quickly.



Buce growing fuss free


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Nov 2022)

Clearing up. Everything growing mad and the size getting much bigger.



Algae seems to have gone? Not done much really. 
@JoshP12  you must find this interesting 😂

Fish seem much more active when lights are at 100% this is like 200-300par. Guessing that the co2 is at lower levels and o2 is higher. And fish seem happy.


----------



## JoshP12 (23 Nov 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Clearing up. Everything growing mad and the size getting much bigger.
> View attachment 198079
> Algae seems to have gone? Not done much really.
> @JoshP12  you must find this interesting 😂


That’s an understatement! Haha. The cool part is the prediction. 


plantnoobdude said:


> Fish seem much more active when lights are at 100% this is like 200-300par. Guessing that the co2 is at lower levels and o2 is higher. And fish seem happy.


😎


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Nov 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> The cool part is the prediction


I agree, very enjoyable to pinpoint a deficiency. Especially a micro nutrient one!


----------



## MichaelJ (23 Nov 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> I agree, very enjoyable to pinpoint a deficiency. Especially a micro nutrient one!


Gosh! Your getting really good at this @plantnoobdude!  👍👍👍

...You guys (@JoshP12 included) and your crazy growth in insanely cloudy water...  

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## plantnoobdude (23 Nov 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Gosh! Your getting really good at this @plantnoobdude! 👍👍👍


Means a lot coming from someone as successful as you!


----------



## plantnoobdude (7 Dec 2022)

Nope 👎 b didn’t help with cloudy water… did help with the plant health tho.
Finally got UV and it’s clearin up.


----------



## MichaelJ (8 Dec 2022)

Hi @plantnoobdude  You should post a pic every or every other day so we can see the progression!  I guesstimate it might take another 3-4 days given the insanity of your cloudiness. 

Plants (still) looks great btw. 👍

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## plantnoobdude (8 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @plantnoobdude  You should post a pic every or every other day so we can see the progression!  I guesstimate it might take another 3-4 days given the insanity of your cloudiness.
> 
> Plants (still) looks great btw. 👍
> 
> ...


Good point.


----------



## plantnoobdude (8 Dec 2022)

Try no.2 for my wild collected fissidens @Hufsa it grows fine but very slowly in my Low tech.


----------



## MichaelJ (9 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Try no.2 for my wild collected fissidens @Hufsa it grows fine but very slowly in my Low tech.


...you guys are so mysterious with your cloudy tanks and potions, but you obviously knows how to grow plants  




Cheers,
Michael


----------



## plantnoobdude (9 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Good point.
> View attachment 198548


Seemingly no progress?
Did a small trim.





Pedicellata, Pantanal, cuphea making a recovery.  All sand🥰

Wallichii stunted cus I lowered co2…. Typical😅


----------



## plantnoobdude (11 Dec 2022)

Clearing up… but still not getting that fast fast growth I was hoping for? Any clue What I can do @JoshP12 ? Planning on doing a WC soon.


----------



## JoshP12 (11 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> View attachment 198625
> Clearing up… but still not getting that fast fast growth I was hoping for? Any clue What I can do @JoshP12 ? Planning on doing a WC soon.


Looks like UV is clearing up the water?

In terms of growth rate, I think you are inert substrate and only water column. You have max light and high temp.

I think the only way is with more ferts (or co2).

Ca/Mg is probably fine - same with micros. Probably just a bit more N and P and K and go from there.

Since I think you follow K<N.


----------



## plantnoobdude (11 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Looks like UV is clearing up the water?


Yeap.


JoshP12 said:


> In terms of growth rate, I think you are inert substrate and only water column. You have max light and high temp.


Yeap.


JoshP12 said:


> I think the only way is with more ferts (or co2).


Co2 at 1.0ph drop from 7.15~6.15


JoshP12 said:


> Ca/Mg is probably fine - same with micros. Probably just a bit more N and P and K and go from there.


yeah. ca:Mg:K at 20:8:4. (Target dosed at wc)


JoshP12 said:


> Since I think you follow K<N.


For my weekly dosing yes. I add 1 ppm N and 0.66 K. 

Will try increase my N to 2ppm N.


----------



## JoshP12 (11 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Will try increase my N to 2ppm N.


I’d also increase P. Best chance of getting it “right”, I think.


----------



## plantnoobdude (11 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> I’d also increase P. Best chance of getting it “right”, I think.


Ah, interesting…. 🤔 maybe!

One thing about my tank is the fact that I don’t do WC often. Maybe every few weeks… Do you think my tank will use 2ppm N weekly? Or will it just accumulate. I have 1.3k and 0.88 Po4 being dosed with that.


----------



## hypnogogia (11 Dec 2022)

No water change, ever?  Why is that?


----------



## plantnoobdude (11 Dec 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> No water change, ever?  Why is that?


I meant to say I don’t do WC often.  Edited!


----------



## JoshP12 (11 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Ah, interesting…. 🤔 maybe!
> 
> One thing about my tank is the fact that I don’t do WC often. Maybe every few weeks… Do you think my tank will use 2ppm N weekly? Or will it just accumulate. I have 1.3k and 0.88 Po4 being dosed with that.


don’t know. If it’s not growing fast enough for you, then you just feed more! And you have every other aspect capped out - so it must be? With more N, you will need proportionate P and K to the Ca and Mg less “as much”.


----------



## JoshP12 (12 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Ah, interesting…. 🤔 maybe!
> 
> One thing about my tank is the fact that I don’t do WC often. Maybe every few weeks… Do you think my tank will use 2ppm N weekly? Or will it just accumulate. I have 1.3k and 0.88 Po4 being dosed with that.


OR water change more often. Then you get the same guaranteed values and success but with more fert replenishment in the water.


----------



## plantnoobdude (13 Dec 2022)

Getting there?….



Macro increase leading to bigger plants but also algae.


----------



## JoshP12 (13 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Getting there?….View attachment 198673
> Macro increase leading to bigger plants but also algae.


What kind?


----------



## JoshP12 (14 Dec 2022)

also, you increased ferts - did you micro turn up co2?


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> What kind?


Gsa, GDA on plants and glass. Glass hasn’t been cleaned in months, but had to do so yesterday.


JoshP12 said:


> also, you increased ferts - did you micro turn up co2?


I’m not as confident with co2 as you😅especially since my tank is relatively small.
So yeah, no I didn’t.

Today’s pic.. you can see which plants are liking increased macros.

macs are changing from lean circular leaf form to EI form. With curled and undulated ( is that the word?? ) leaves

Added pics of glass as well.







Senegalensis looking really prettty. Pantanal is uh getting there…

Surprisingly wallichii really appreciated higher nutrients. 
Hacked it back and it’s got some rlly nice new pink shoots.



Tonina is a stable one. Grows fine and doesn’t care.




Loving riccardia


----------



## Freshflora (14 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Gsa, GDA on plants and glass. Glass hasn’t been cleaned in months, but had to do so yesterday.
> 
> I’m not as confident with co2 as you😅especially since my tank is relatively small.
> So yeah, no I didn’t.
> ...


That’s some beautiful mac.  FWIW though, IME mac has skinnier leaves under richer water column dosing once you get past a certain threshold and wider/fatter leaves under leaner water column dosing.   Take a look at @GreggZ mac pics and then Dennis Wong’s.  Also here is my Rotala Mac mini type 4 red dosed at EI levels.


----------



## JoshP12 (14 Dec 2022)

GDA is like little balls? Flocculent? I’m almost convinced this algae is very closely related to  something systemic vs plant — notice we both have it and we both have cloudy water.

Though our substrates are completely different. As of now, I can’t pinpoint the relations on that thing though I’m banking on when the water is de-cloudied it will also be gone.

I think your Mac is rather happy at the moment.

Here is mine under “insane offgas substrate and lean column dosing” conditions:












On the other side:




The GSA, probably linked to K, PO4, and/or co2.

I am leaning to K and PO4 — did you increase both of these with N?

@KirstyF fixed her permanent GSA with K and PO4. Just P didn’t do it - keeping overall balance in mind. 

I doubt your co2 is off.


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Dec 2022)

Freshflora said:


> That’s some beautiful mac.  FWIW though, IME mac has skinner leaves under richer water column dosing once you get past a certain threshold and wider/fatter leaves under leaner water column dosing.   Take a look at @GreggZ mac pics and then Dennis Wong’s.  Also here is my Rotala Mac mini type 4 red dosed at EI levels.  View attachment 198692


Yeah that’s what I meant. Not sure how it came across haha. They used to have circular leaves and more compact forms, now they’re growing those long skinny leaves.


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> GDA is like little balls? Flocculent? I’m almost convinced this algae is very closely related to  something systemic vs plant — notice we both have it and we both have cloudy water.
> 
> Though our substrates are completely different. As of now, I can’t pinpoint the relations on that thing though I’m banking on when the water is de-cloudied it will also be gone.
> 
> ...


Gorgeous pics. 
No gda is like a dust, I have also stringy algae like spirogyra?

K And po4 increased yes… but only in same ratio. So 
2ppm N 0.9 po4, 1.3 k
Are you suggesting I raise these values?
To maybe 
8.8 No3
1.5 po4
2 K


JoshP12 said:


> @KirstyF fixed her permanent GSA with K and PO4.


Yeah good point.


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> GDA is like little balls? Flocculent? I’m almost convinced this algae is very closely related to  something systemic vs plant — notice we both have it and we both have cloudy water.
> 
> Though our substrates are completely different. As of now, I can’t pinpoint the relations on that thing though I’m banking on when the water is de-cloudied it will also be gone.
> 
> ...


However I also see green splotchy colours? In  my tank this only occured in rich substrate and  high No3 levels.


----------



## JoshP12 (14 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> However I also see green splotchy colours? In  my tank this only occured in rich substrate and  high No3 levels.


Hmm - think I’m not following. 

With rich substrate and 5x EI and high light, I’ve had a clean tank. I’ve never taken the substrate to the level I did this time. But last time I did this with much less miracle gro I had a similar green flocxulent thing but it didn’t last as long.

The green splotch in mine or yours? Does it come off easy peasy? Or hard (like gsa)?


----------



## plantnoobdude (14 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Hmm - think I’m not following.
> 
> With rich substrate and 5x EI and high light, I’ve had a clean tank. I’ve never taken the substrate to the level I did this time. But last time I did this with much less miracle gro I had a similar green flocxulent thing but it didn’t last as long.
> 
> The green splotch in mine or yours? Does it come off easy peasy? Or hard (like gsa)?


Green splotchy colours on your macrandra . Not algae but a growth defect. I have some photos I will try find them for you tomorrow. Off to bed for today!


----------



## JoshP12 (14 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Green splotchy colours on your macrandra . Not algae but a growth defect. I have some photos I will try find them for you tomorrow. Off to bed for today!


Ahh yes! 👌

I notice it under low co2 (or flow/dist. Locally) or high N for whatever reason causes the flux.

Also wouldn’t be surprised at all if spectrum played any part in what we actually see on these plants/how they pigment up. 

It’s part of the reason why I showed right and left side in the photos above (my right and left lights are different in both intensity and spectrum and you can starkly see a difference, granted flow blah blah etc too).


----------



## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Gorgeous pics.


Thank you . 


plantnoobdude said:


> No gda is like a dust, I have also stringy algae like spirogyra?
> 
> K And po4 increased yes… but only in same ratio. So
> 2ppm N 0.9 po4, 1.3 k
> ...


You need potassium.

That stringy thing is only prominent when tank is just a bit “off” and K seems to do that.

Personally, I like NO3O4 at 2:1 but it really doesn’t matter too much.

Assuming you are just using N/NO3 interchangeably, I’d leave it at 2/.9 for NO3/PO4. If you are using N as proxy for NO3, then I tend to just convert to NO3 and aim 2:1 … NO3O4. But that won’t fix on its own.

The K is very little here at 2. And I think 4 fro
 Remineralize and also 20 Ca and 8 Mg. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to put it higher … maybe get it to 10 or at least 8 then the next week 10 and so on until stringy clears.

What does Joe Harvey do for N/P/K and GH? I know he uses sand like you. If you had soil, I’d say it doesn’t really matter, just plunk it at 14 ppm for K and you won’t really need to worry. But I have caused major deformities by changing K drastically so I am hesitant to say go and do it because they may crunch especially without the soil.


----------



## plantnoobdude (15 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Assuming you are just using N/NO3


Nah, I use N and No3 with conversions.
P and po4 I also use conversions. 
My current dosing is
8.8 No3
0.88 Po4
I might increase po4 to two? Little changes at a time haha.


JoshP12 said:


> The K is very little here at 2. And I think 4 fro
> Remineralize and also 20 Ca and 8 Mg. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to put it higher … maybe get it to 10 or at least 8 then the next week 10 and so on until stringy clears


maybe, but that means d I’ll need to do a massive wc. Or just collumn dose idk.


JoshP12 said:


> What does Joe Harvey do for N/P/K and GH? I know he uses sand like you. If you had soil, I’d say it doesn’t really matter, just plunk it at 14 ppm for K and you won’t really need to worry. But I have caused major deformities by changing K drastically so I am hesitant to say go and do it because they may crunch especially without the soil.


No idea what he does. But yea I have observed leaf crunching at higher K levels especially for pedicellata.


----------



## plantnoobdude (15 Dec 2022)

This is what my Mac looked like


----------



## Happi (15 Dec 2022)

Freshflora said:


> IME mac has skinnier leaves under richer water column


They almost always obtain bigger leaves under urea dosing. The leaves almost becomes very thin under heavy NO3 dosing.


----------



## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Nah, I use N and No3 with conversions.
> P and po4 I also use conversions.
> My current dosing is
> 8.8 No3
> ...


I would! 


plantnoobdude said:


> maybe, but that means d I’ll need to do a massive wc. Or just collumn dose idk.
> 
> No idea what he does. But yea I have observed leaf crunching at higher K levels especially for pedicellata.


Start with the P then see if the stringy one subsides, if not, might need to bump K.


----------



## JoshP12 (15 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> This is what my Mac looked like


I think this really opens up a much larger conversation.

Sprectrum and light will change the way we see and the plant responds - macrandra is such a sensitive plant, that you can actually see the impact.

Just as an aside, here is a picture from green aqua tank:




You can see that the severe N restriction has caused the beautiful color - enhanced by probably ADA lights - and then further down you go, you can see the change of the leaf (mobile nutrients).

Some random photo (people rarely give top-down photos of macrandra on purpose):




Also, the taller it gets the more likely  it is to have flow/light blocked. If its a group of macrandra, it's always the top 1/3 that people share. Or it's a single stem with perfect maintenance around it.

I think it's more of a humbling experience between us and nature - though the imperfection is evident to us, I'd be certain that behind all the photos that we see there is macrandra with greenish splotches on lower, older growth and/or growth that is blocked by crowding etc. Also, Greenaqua deserves credit for timing that photo/video with the nutrient restriction perfectly. And, spectrum will change what we actually see on the plant etc. This is the minutia though ... any spectrum will grow plants, but when we are talking about splotchy macrandra on old growth, spectrum is a worthy competitor. 

I'll see if I can get a good shot of the lower parts of mine that are blocked by all the h'ra etc. There is a stark difference between the left and right side by lights and the other stuff.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## plantnoobdude (15 Dec 2022)

Nooooo my pedicellata.



Started stunting.




Mac leaves getting bigger




Pantanal putting out side shoots for some reason. Prolly co2. Did some maintenance.


----------



## _Maq_ (16 Dec 2022)

Did UV lamp help clearing the water? Or was it WC?


----------



## plantnoobdude (16 Dec 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Did UV lamp help clearing the water? Or was it WC?


Definitely UV.


----------



## plantnoobdude (16 Dec 2022)

Daily updates too repetitive? Who cares😂



Everything going mad. Plants and algae included.


----------



## JoshP12 (18 Dec 2022)

Here’s a shot of mini butterfly — can see on farthest down leaves, you have minor greening.





Also, buddy just changed his lighting to that chihiros one and in his Macrandra, you can’t see some of the green spots anymore.


----------



## plantnoobdude (18 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Here’s a shot of mini butterfly — can see on farthest down leaves, you have minor greening.
> 
> View attachment 198850
> 
> Also, buddy just changed his lighting to that chihiros one and in his Macrandra, you can’t see some of the green spots anymore.


Very interesting, wish I could pinpoint it to something and cause it reliably.


----------



## JoshP12 (18 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Very interesting, wish I could pinpoint it to something and cause it reliably.


We’d have to find someone who has top to bottom - at least a foot worth - of Macrandra perfect.

In a single stem, completely clear scenario, is more likely (in my opinion), any bouquet and I’d be impressed.

I reckon you need meticulously clean sand substrate, each micro weighed, and careful, consistent macros.

In other words, the tank is always in this zone of perfect for Macrandra needs.

Probably need lots of light too (for Macrandra) - and from lots of angles.

I think it’s related to the big macros - N/CO2 and light intensity.


----------



## plantnoobdude (18 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> We’d have to find someone who has top to bottom - at least a foot worth - of Macrandra perfect.
> 
> In a single stem, completely clear scenario, is more likely (in my opinion), any bouquet and I’d be impressed.
> 
> ...


Yeah would love to see that.
Probably should get round to adding that additional PO4. I’m not sure if adding Po4 will solve my algae issues though, because I had no algae before I started double dosing macros. Will still try it tho. 








Stringy algae, filamentous short algae, and gda+gsa. 

As a whole plant growth is looking good. Except pedicellata.



Seems I’m more afraid of algae than the plants lol.

Was hoping for pedicellata more like this….


----------



## JoshP12 (19 Dec 2022)

Can’t fear the algae! Teaches us. 

You just poured N and you have no substrate nutrients - you need P and K the rest. Micros not as “much” in your soft water.

You can even peel back the N and pull up the P if you wanted to not enter EI territory so fast. 

The GSA points to PO4/CO2 and potentially K. 

The stringy one points to either short-lived algae on growth that has rapidly decayed OR K. 

These “points” can be ammended in other ways like pulling off the other ferts and choking but adding more and adding more - we land on EI.

Classic, lower the lights to “find the sweet spot” or go hard mode- leave the lights for form etc - and nail your flow with EI column. Without substrate it’s tough unless you harden the GH of the water, and even then if N gets too high, the rest has to go up.

But right now you are around ~7ppm NO3 … just pull up PO4 and watch.

The algae will get worse. Don’t matter. Have to do maintenance etc.

You also have UV going - making more ammonia because all the bacteria is dying. So you have double whammy. UV needs water change to remove the waste or you end up in the cycle of boom bust boom bust and if your co2 isn’t bang on, the plants begin to suffer from fluctuation - algae soup.


----------



## plantnoobdude (24 Dec 2022)

Wallichii showing Fe deficiency, might decrease Ca Mg K
To 10:4:4
My pH drop is from 0.9-1.0 I don’t think it’s co2…
Made up that higher PO4 mix @JoshP12 
2N (NH4NO3)
2 PO4
1.5 K
Lowering gh shouldn’t be too bad an idea no?


----------



## plantnoobdude (24 Dec 2022)

Also, thinking about turning off the UV? Horrrible idea? Keep it on 24/7?


----------



## JoshP12 (24 Dec 2022)

Lots going on here @plantnoobdude —- if you want to reduce GH for the sake of having to add less salts/softer water/ease (for example I keep Ca at 9 so I don’t have to add any since my water is Ca 9), I would … if only to make iron more accessible, I wouldn’t.

The moment you change GH and K, the N and P will probably influence differently - within reason (and potentially unnoticeable) … I’d let wallichi grow “iron deficient” and see if it is actually iron deficient (it might be without the substrate) - sometimes it turns pinky/paley under high light. The plant can also moderate minerals to some extent.

Playing with the salts is hard and annoying work  in my opinion- harder than fiddling with light and co2.  And it’s mysterious.

UV again make a choice and stick with it - since the constant change is hard on the system. 

I’d leave it for another couple weeks then turn it off and see if the cloud comes back since it is clear now.


----------



## plantnoobdude (24 Dec 2022)

JoshP12 said:


> Lots going on here @plantnoobdude —- if you want to reduce GH for the sake of having to add less salts/softer water/ease (for example I keep Ca at 9 so I don’t have to add any since my water is Ca 9), I would … if only to make iron more accessible, I wouldn’t.
> 
> The moment you change GH and K, the N and P will probably influence differently - within reason (and potentially unnoticeable) … I’d let wallichi grow “iron deficient” and see if it is actually iron deficient (it might be without the substrate) - sometimes it turns pinky/paley under high light. The plant can also moderate minerals to some extent.
> 
> ...


Alright good advice, I’ll just stick to dosing the raised PO4 mix.


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## Happi (24 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Wallichii showing Fe deficiency, might decrease Ca Mg K


I don't think this should affect the Fe. I assume you are referring to Mg and K interaction which could interfere with each others and where Mg Deficiency (look similar to Fe Deficiency/Pale Growth) could occur due to excess K ? But in your case this is less likely to happen because your K is still not that high. let me know if this is why you wanted to make the change listed in the quote?


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## plantnoobdude (24 Dec 2022)

Happi said:


> I don't think this should affect the Fe. I assume you are referring to Mg and K interaction which could interfere with each others and where Mg Deficiency (look similar to Fe Deficiency/Pale Growth) could occur due to excess K ? But in your case this is less likely to happen because your K is still not that high. let me know if this is why you wanted to make the change listed in the quote?


Due to antagonism from Ca:Mg and Fe.
I only added K since it is part of my remineraliser.
In the past I had gone as Low as 0.03ppm Fe weekly (though this was soil) in very soft water. 
So yeah, that’s why I am considering moving it down, maybe at a later date though.


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## plantnoobdude (31 Dec 2022)

New update coming soon. Plus plans. Happy new year folks!


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## MichaelJ (31 Dec 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> New update coming soon. Plus plans. Happy new year folks!


@plantnoobdude,  Clear water,  Yay!!  Happy New Year!


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## Happi (31 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> @plantnoobdude,  Clear water,  Yay!!  Happy New Year!


so clear that you could even see the scratches on the wall.


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## plantnoobdude (31 Dec 2022)

Happi said:


> so clear that you could even see the scratches on the wall.


Second hand tank😅


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## Tim Harrison (31 Dec 2022)

Beautiful


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## MichaelJ (31 Dec 2022)

Tim Harrison said:


> Beautiful


And lean!


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## KirstyF (31 Dec 2022)

Woohoo! Looking swish there dude!


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## Tim Harrison (31 Dec 2022)

@MichaelJ for sure lean dosing can yield great results, been there myself. Always more than one route to success. 
But perhaps not necessarily a good idea for those just starting out though 🙂


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## plantnoobdude (31 Dec 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> And lean!


Yes😃


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## Happi (31 Dec 2022)

good to see the tank has cleared up from that green water, which i strongly believe has interrupted the  nutrients and lights. regarding lean dosing, the tank is setup based on inert substrate with low CEC which will have very little impact on the Nutrients in the water, such setup is more aligned toward true uptake of the nutrients by the plants without much interference from substrate. in another word, if one want to fully test how well their liquid fertilizer/ ratio etc. are working, they should eliminate the source of interference.  if same was done with substrate that have a high CEC, it will certainly  interfere with some of nutrients, especially those with + charge attached to them. 

@plantnoobdude  keep on playing with the fertilizer/Ratio, there is always a room for improvement.  if you could run this tank for a one full year on the same/similar pattern, you will get this award from the UKAPS community


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## MichaelJ (1 Jan 2023)

Tim Harrison said:


> @MichaelJ for sure lean dosing can yield great results, been there myself. Always more than one route to success.
> But perhaps not necessarily a good idea for those just starting out though 🙂


Agreed  

Cheers,
Michael


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## Hanuman (1 Jan 2023)

plantnoobdude said:


> Nooooo my pedicellata.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Talk about stunting... Can thank urea for the flashy green.


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## plantnoobdude (1 Jan 2023)

Hanuman said:


> Talk about stunting... Can thank urea of the flashy green.
> View attachment 199245


What do you think caused the stunting? Also, how much urea are you dosing? Never seen that even when I use only urea for N


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## Hanuman (1 Jan 2023)

plantnoobdude said:


> What do you think caused the stunting?


Difficult to say honestly. I don't have enough data with the plant in this tank and these specific conditions as it used to be in my smaller tank before where it was growing very slow but without stunting. Could be the soil being depleted although I did add some root tabs not long ago so not sure here.



plantnoobdude said:


> Also, how much urea are you dosing? Never seen that even when I use only urea for N


I'm currently dosing ~10ppm (split 4:1 - KNO3:urea). The plant started to stunt once it was quite tall although now I am seeing side shoots showing some early signs of stunting after trimming the plant. Before that, leaf were fine. Not sure if light intensity could also have triggered the deformity. I'm not relating the urea to the deformity BTW. Only the coloration and growth speed which I am pretty sure it's the urea because many plants have turned bright green since using urea rather than only NO3. Some plants also just start growing at an accelerated pace like E. setaceum for example and this Pedicellata. I had to remove the E. setaceum because of this when in fact it's actually a slow grower.


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## plantnoobdude (1 Jan 2023)

Hanuman said:


> Difficult to say honestly. I don't have enough data with the plant in this tank and these specific conditions as it used to be in my smaller tank before where it was growing very slow but without stunting. Could be the soil being depleted although I did add some root tabs not


Your smaller tank was dosed leaner in column? Was it more stable in terms of nutrient levels? I remember something about frontloading from you.

For me urea dosed at non limiting lead to vey fast growth.


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## Hanuman (1 Jan 2023)

plantnoobdude said:


> Your smaller tank was dosed leaner in column? Was it more stable in terms of nutrient levels? I remember something about frontloading from you.


Yes it was dosed slightly leaner (basically an APT Complete clone I made) dosed 3x a week but 50% of the soil was new and I also had added locally made root tabs as an insurance. Front loading was only on my main tank not the smaller one. This said CO2 was lower in that small tank so plants were demanding less so this could also be the reason for the stunting in my bigger tank where CO2 is as high as it gets.


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## plantnoobdude (2 Jan 2023)

Did some thinning out and WC.

Plans for early 2023
1. Get some fishies, cherry barbs maybe?
2. Try get a Scape? Maybe lol
3. Try miracle gro on this tank in combination with very low Ca Mg 5:2 front dosed and very small amounts dosed daily. (0.2 Mg, 0.4 Ca) (Prolly won't do this if I get cherry barbs.) TDS in set up like this will be 20-22. Wanna see if I can get good growth in ultra-lean/light water. Need to study Marcel's work more.
N 1
P 0.1458
K 0.554
Fe 0.008
Mn 0.00208
B 0.000833
Cu 0.00125
Zn 0.00125
Mo 0.00004166
Thanks @Happi for calculations
4. More plants. Royals sahyadrica, rotala red cross, ammannia praetermissa, all good options. Yes I m lythracaea obsessed.

Realistically what'll probably happen:
I keep my Ca:Mg:K the same NPK the same try and get a nice pleasing Scape, and some pretty fishies.


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## Happi (2 Jan 2023)

not sure if this would be any useful for you ?


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## plantnoobdude (3 Jan 2023)

Made my marschner mix with miracle gro and a few other chemicals. It's AIO 
Including 
N,p,K,Fe,Mn,Zn,Cu,B, Mo, Ni,Ca,Mg,S,Cl
Wasn't sure if it was possible but I did it😀



I'll do an experiment with this quite soon. 
Light water+inert substrate+ marschner collumn. Will it fail drastically? Will nothing happen? Who knows
N. 2
P 0.3
K 1.3
Fe 0.016
Mn 0.0075
B 0.003
Cu. 0.0025
Zn. 0.0025
Mo. 0.00008
Ca. 0.66
Mg. 0.33
Ni. 0.00001


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## Happi (3 Jan 2023)

@plantnoobdude  i like it how you have used a "Tropica Specialized Bottle "


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## plantnoobdude (3 Jan 2023)

Happi said:


> @plantnoobdude  i like it how you have used a "Tropica Specialized Bottle "


Haha it's convenient quite like the pump bottle, and it is quie accurate+precise.


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## MichaelJ (6 Jan 2023)

plantnoobdude said:


> Haha it's convenient quite like the pump bottle, and it is quie accurate+precise.



Yes, it really is. For my micro blend I use in my shrimp tank, I use an old Tropica specialized bottle  750 ml.  bottle as well. I measured the pumps a few times and its pretty much spot on 2 ml.

Of course, in my so called_ lean tank _(150L low tech) I use the real deal from Tropica - still applying (for 10 months now) only do 6 pumps every week per @Happi's instructions to maintain that fabulous 1 ppm of N   I do add a little bit more P and K with my WC water over the 0.079 ppm and 0.916 ppm respectively that I get from Specialized  (not endorsed by @Happi btw.   ), but nothing else.... and only relying on the crazy low 0.055 ppm of Fe and other tiny amounts of micros I get with it...  Anyway, so far good plant health, no algae and much higher light than my more traditionally dosed shrimp tank.    I need to get around to writing it up for my journal...

Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (Sunday at 12:28 AM)

plantnoobdude said:


> I'll do an experiment with this quite soon.
> Light water+inert substrate+ marschner collumn. Will it fail drastically? Will nothing happen? Who knows
> N. 2
> P 0.3
> ...


if this fails down the road, try removing the Ca and Mg from this solution and add about 1 ppm Ca and 0.4 ppm Mg  to the  water.


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## plantnoobdude (Sunday at 1:54 AM)

Happi said:


> if this fails down the road, try removing the Ca and Mg from this solution and add about 1 ppm Ca and 0.4 ppm Mg  to the  water.


So far this solution stays clear. Thinking about doing 50-80% WC this will get Ca Mg to 10:4~5:2


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## plantnoobdude (Sunday at 1:55 AM)

MichaelJ said:


> crazy low 0.055 ppm of Fe and other tiny amounts of micros I get with it.


I dose 0.0875 Fe weekly..... High tech😀 you can still go lower Michael!


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## plantnoobdude (Wednesday at 7:01 PM)

N. 2
P 0.3
K 1.3
Fe 0.016
Mn 0.0075
B 0.003
Cu. 0.0025
Zn. 0.0025
Mo. 0.00008
Ca. 0.66
Mg. 0.33
Ni. 0.00001


*New miracle gro dosing I used miracle gro and a couple other compounds to reach these targets. Mainly Mn EDTA., Boric acid, cacl, mgso4 and k2so4.*
The tank water has Ca Mg very low and TDS is around 30. 

Immediate reaction. Algae. 





Almost exclusively on my wallichii? Seems odd. 

The wallichii seem to have had a growth spurt aswell. 




Do the bottom leaves on my macrandra make you happy @JoshP12 ??? 😂




Thought I'd see slowed growth and trace deficiency at my ppms but not yet. Lowered Ca definitely helps.


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## Gerald_meer (Wednesday at 11:05 PM)

plantnoobdude said:


> View attachment 199346
> 
> N 1
> P 0.1458
> ...


Sorry, but is it everyday or weekly dosage or parameters in your tank?
Thx.


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## plantnoobdude (Wednesday at 11:07 PM)

Gerald_meer said:


> Sorry, but is it everyday or weekly dosage?
> Thx.


 weekly. Keep in mind that dose is from urea and nh4


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## Gerald_meer (Wednesday at 11:14 PM)

plantnoobdude said:


> Fe 0,008


why such a weekly dosage of iron? usually at least 0.05, but here it is 6.25 times less. Is it due to low TDS? The rationale is interesting..


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## JoshP12 (Yesterday at 12:52 AM)

I have missed so much of the journal - It should be notifying me!

In any case, it looks lovely!

The chihiros spectrum and light is very surreal. My friend uses it and it brings out different colours in the Macrandra rather than AI prime or even a more “natural” spectrum.

Looking good!


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## MichaelJ (Yesterday at 1:08 AM)

Gerald_meer said:


> why such a weekly dosage of iron? usually at least 0.05, but here it is 6.25 times less. Is it due to low TDS? The rationale is interesting..


Hi @Gerald_meer,  Somewhere between very soft to extremely soft water, in terms of Calcium and Magnesium (GH), and somewhat acidic water (pH 6-6.9) with near zero KH, is certainly part of the equation that makes this ultra lean approach working and that it is low _everything _and in proper ratios. Light spectrum just _might _play role as well, but I don't think so in the grand scheme of things.  Correct me if I am wrong Master Noob 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Happi (Today at 8:30 AM)

MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Gerald_meer,  Somewhere between very soft to extremely soft water, in terms of Calcium and Magnesium (GH), and somewhat acidic water (pH 6-6.9) with near zero KH, is certainly part of the equation that makes this ultra lean approach working and that it is low _everything _and in proper ratios. Light spectrum just _might _play role as well, but I don't think so in the grand scheme of things. Correct me if I am wrong Master Noob
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael


under lean dosing and high lights, you can expect very strong coloration, almost like HDR.


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