# Cotton Mouth / Columnaris neon tetras



## Barbara Turner

Hi All
I noticed a white ulcer on the mouth of one of my neons, a few days later I bought seachem paraguard as I believed it to be a fungal infection.
I put 2 litres of water in a large clear bag medicated it and left him floating in it for a hour.. (didn't seem bothered)
I've done this a collection of times but it's now spread to half the neon tetras. Although it hasn't killed any of them.
There all still feeding well and pretty much un affected. I've read online it could be columnaris, but it doesn't seem to be spreading to the cat fish or ember tetras and there still alive.

Tank is heavily planted and has a large number of cherry shrimps. I've also ordered a new heater so I should be able to setup a better quarantine tank.


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## alto

Daily water changes?
- one of the most effective medications when you're unsure of the particular pathogen - especially if unable to procur effective drugs due to restrictions 

Even when dosing a known effective agent, daily water changes form part of the recommended care (re veterinary fish research)

If bacterial pathogen suspected, keep temperatures on the lower end but still within fish comfort zone

If fish are still eating, medicated food is far more effective than any bath protocols (though larger fish such as goldfish etc often benefit from injections)


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## kadoxu

Seems like columnaris to me. I can see fin and tail rot starting in a couple of them.... it's all downhill (very slowly) from there.

From my experience, the fish will keep behaving and eating normally, until they can no longer swim properly (fin rot), or can no longer eat (cotton mouth).


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## Barbara Turner

I've dropped the temperature and doing extra water changes..(There not so easy when your using 70% RO)

Just been reading online and API Furan 2 is recommended 
I was planning on making up some medicated flake but getting hold of anything is going to take ages as the key ingredient the antibiotic metronidazole isn't
allowed in the UK without visiting the vet. 

Anyone know of anywhere I can buy it from without getting it shipped from the USA?

Water parameters = 
No3 - 25 mg/L
No2 - 0 mg/L
GH0 - >7°d
KH - 6°d
PH   - 6.8
Chlorine  - 0mg/L
Co2 -  30mg/L


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## sparkyweasel

I would suggest you get to your LFS ASAP,  get whatever they stock that treats columnaris, and start treatment today. If you research the best treatment and have to send off for it you lose three days. I would rather use the second or third best, and start treating immediately.
Tetra do one that's worked well for me, Myxazin is one, I think all the big brands do one, so I would get whatever is in stock.


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## Barbara Turner

A good idea in theory, first shop sold me some very expensive tea tree oil made by API , googled it when I got back to work. Popped in to a second shop and they openly said that I need antibiotics that there not allowed to sell. Slightly frustrating as they said they buy it from somewhere in the UK online but couldn't tell me where or sell me any....



sparkyweasel said:


> I would suggest you get to your LFS ASAP,  get whatever they stock that treats columnaris, and start treatment today. If you research the best treatment and have to send off for it you lose three days. I would rather use the second or third best, and start treating immediately.
> Tetra do one that's worked well for me, Myxazin is one, I think all the big brands do one, so I would get whatever is in stock.


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## alto

Have a read through the pertinent rasbora cotton mouth posts in this Topic from sciencefiction

Unfortunately most neon stocks are not as resilient as these rasboras - I suspect you'll lose most as it looks to be fairly well advanced 
I'd quarantine immediately 

For lack of suitable antibiotics, I'd use Seachem's ParaGuard as as dip & bath - again this will be more effective in a bare quarantine tank with daily large water changes ..... maybe switch to tap for this, unless neons seem more stressed by your tap water conditions - begin by using 50% RO, then 40% etc

I prefer to add an airstone or sponge or small internal filter to dip container (though many just add meds + fish)
If you've a 40litre Q tank, you can add 5ml PG into 7litres, add fish etc, then just top up water to 40 litres (35 would be fine) after an hour (minimum suggested & I'd not go longer)

As long as fish are eating, there's a chance of recovery, those that can no longer eat, I would euthanize 

I wish tea tree oil would be required to be labelled 
_*Antibacterial activity proven effective against misc water bacteria NOT any actual fish pathogens
May seriously distress fish



*_


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## Barbara Turner

I've been dip treating the fish in paraguard for 2 hours rather than the recommended hour (they don't show any signs of distress)
but it's doesn't seem like the magic fix, it might be slowing it down. 

I live in a really hard water area which neons don't like which was one of the main reasons to start using RO 

I've dropped the tank temperature, I've also added the tea tree oil very slowly over about an hour,  the fish didn't show any signs of distress. 
 I don't expect this to help any of the fish with the disease but it might reduce the bacteria in the water, hopefully with this combined with the lower water temperature it might reduce
the rate it spreads to other fish. 

I'm still trying to order some seachem kanaplex from the states trying to pay the extra to ship it priority express 

I reluctant to treat the fish outside of the tank as from what I've read the columnaris can live in an empty tank for up to a month.  Trying to get my pygmy cory's out is going to be pretty impossible. 
Last time I moved them I ripped out all the plants dropped the water to a couple of inches and it still took half a day to catch them.


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## alto

Barbara Turner said:


> don't expect this to help any of the fish with the disease but it might reduce the bacteria in the water


unfortunately not the bacteria which transmit disease to fish but as long as you're seeing no signs of stress, it's neither here nor there

I'd not expect to see the ParaGuard alter the visible fungus/mouth rot - more that you see slower spread

Potassium permanganate will remove visible fungus etc, but no idea if you can get this in the UK - try a chemist 
(just googled PP & UK online shop comes up)
It is much more stressful to fish that ParaGuard so I'd try dipping just a couple fish to start (discus seem to manage PP very well, angels less so ... I've no idea about neons)


To catch fish in a planted tank, bottle traps usually work very well


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## Barbara Turner

alto said:


> Potassium permanganate will remove visible fungus etc, but no idea if you can get this in the UK - try a chemist
> (just googled PP & UK online shop comes up)
> It is much more stressful to fish that ParaGuard so I'd try dipping just a couple fish to start (discus seem to manage PP very well, angels less so ... I've no idea about neons)



If I try placing them in a bag with Potassium permanganate for an hour, how many grams/ litre would you recommend?
I'm reluctant to dose the whole tank..


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## alto

Barbara Turner said:


> for an hour,


Too long

Definitely read through this article (hosted on Simply Discus) before using 

I'd not use PP without some sort of aeration - sponge filter, airstone, small internal filter


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## Barbara Turner

I ordered 50g of pp, if I only 2mg/l it's going to last a lifetime.  Would you recommed the fast or  slow method?  Reading further down this should only be done once a  maximum of once a week.  Either way I can set up a plastic tub with a heater and bubbler. Ideally some plastic plants if I can find any. 

Slow

"For most fish, potassium permanganate can be administered at a concentration of 2 mg/L as a long-term bath (4-hour minimum) in fresh water or salt water systems. Potassium permanganate is also reasonably safe to use in recirculating systems and has minimal impact on biofilters when used at 2 mg/L. Treated water should retain the purple coloration for at least 4 hours. "

Express method. 

"Potassium permanganate can also be used as a short-term bath at concentrations of 10 mg/L for 30 minutes. At this concentration, careful observation of fish is mandatory to avoid mortality. "

I've bought some seachem kaplex and focus but it's not going to be here for at least a week. Might be tempted to treat the tank anyway as I've read it can linger for a month.


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## alto

I'd feed the tank medicated food for 3-5 or 5-7 feedings; depending on palatability, you can feed daily or alternate days
Course of treatment depends on how well fish are eating, pathogen etc
After treatment, water change etc, wait a few days, then possibly repeat treatment

You can combine bath treatment & medicated food, but most antibiotics depress fish activity, so fish often have stronger food response without "bath" medication
If only some fish are eating, then you need to separate fish or add medication to tank water 
Medicated food is much much more effective 

Use the highest regarded food (frozen bloodworms or brine shrimp (& bs decaps) for my fish - they don't accept pellets or flake) that remains intact as long as possible (ie, pellets are better than flake, freeze dried is great IF fish will eat it)

Presoak food with Focus & medictaion for ~10min, if soaked too long, food becomes less palatable re most meds are bitter or off-taste
Metronidazole~food is more palatable than most antibiotic~food
Focus helps bind the medication to the food 
I never found that Entice made a difference with my fish 

I dissolve medication in water - use room temp or slightly warmed (eg, 30C) RO water for maximum solubility ... I believe UF EDIS has an article on preparing medicated foods, they have a veterinary ornamental (aquaculture) fish department hence the many articles
Then add the Focus - I worry less about complete solubility of this 
Then add the food
You can add the extra medicated solution to the tank BUT in my experience, shrimp begin to suffer in case of a long term treatment or if just moulted, so I try to add only the food (to the tank)

You can prepare the medicated/Focus solution in advance (store dark, room temp or dark, fridge depending on medications used), then just pour off a bit for each food treatment - again I found palatabilty was better when prepared just prior to feeding (but recall my fish are slow, picky eaters)

When feeding, 5g Kanaplex etc goes a long way (store tube in cool,dim place - again depending on med, fridge or freezer may be preferred for long term stability)

As for PP, I'd dip treat the neons, then return to tank, judge stress level, then add PP to tank - have fresh peroxide on hand to neutralize PP
Always be prepared to do immediate water change when medicating fish, followed by carbon in filter to remove medication - salt water or reef grade activated carbon is much better quality than most freshwater carbon, replace carbon after 24h with fresh batch, remove this after 2-3 days for most effeicient removal of medication

Daily water changes are always good - even if just 25% 
Always (with)draw water from bottom of tank rather than top


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## Barbara Turner

Thankyou for your detailed reply some great tips, i'll start with some medicated freeze dried bloodworm, I imagine this soaks up the medicine far better than frozen. 
I'll leave them a day without food first to encourage them to eat.  Do I also need to treat some algae wafers to try and dose the ottos? (currently showing no symptoms)

Great tip


alto said:


> You can prepare the medicated/Focus solution in advance (store dark, room temp or dark, fridge depending on medications used), then just pour off a bit for each food treatment - again I found palatabilty was better when prepared just prior to feeding (but recall my fish are slow, picky eaters)



I'm guessing that I need to treat the whole tank with something, or am I right in thinking that it will keep reinfecting other fish? Do the fish build up an immunity?

Have you tested this in a planted tank with shrimps 





alto said:


> then add PP to tank


 If I half fill my filter with carbon will it filter it out fast enough that the risk is low enough? I have my concerns about adding potassium permanganate to the main tank,  I have 10 neon tetras - 5 sick but have  +50 cherry shrimps and a carpet of monte carlo and dwarf hair grass. 
The last thing I want to do is kill all the shrimps and half my plants to save 5 neon tetras. 

Would a UV sterilizer stop it spreading through the water column?

Amazing video of the Flavobacterium columnare here


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## jameson_uk

I had a school of Dwarf Rainbowfish die off over several months with most showing symptoms of columnaris (I do however suspect that this was a secondary issue but never got to the bottom of what the root cause was and no other livestock seemed to be affected).

When researching I came across
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html
And
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Flavobacterium_columnare
The latter including a list of potential meds.  For me nothing worked and it looks like the only things that might work are antibiotics which are only available from a vet in the UK.  I managed to get a few fish to perk up but I only managed to delay things rather than cure them.


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## AverageWhiteBloke

Barbara Turner said:


> Have you tested this in a planted tank with shrimps



I think shrimp are mainly affected by copper based medications. Shame about the fish, I find neons are really bad quality in the UK, in fact I won't buy them any more from any supplier. Every single time I've tried them in the past it usually starts with one neon and one by one they all succumb over time and nothing seems to stop it. Cardinals are a much healthier option.


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## lazybones51

One of the Platies in my community tank was showing the symptoms of Columnaris, I move him over to my small shrimp tank for isolated treatment. None of the other fish in the community tank were showing symptoms, because of this I didn't treat them. We lost the Platy about a week later, the community was never affected and months later all of those fish are still perfect.


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## Barbara Turner

All the neons spent an hour last night in a Potassium permanganate solution (10mg / Litre) I added it relatively slowly and they didn't seem distressed.
took a while to work out how to measure the pp accurately, in the end, I dissolved 0.5g of PP to  500ml of RO water.   I could then accurately add 150ml to my 15 Litre of water.


They looked a lot perkier this morning, If there still showing signs I'll bath them again in a weeks time.





My Seachem Kanaplex and Focus has made it to Newark international airport slowly getting closer.



lazybones51 said:


> One of the Platies in my community tank was showing the symptoms of Columnaris, I move him over to my small shrimp tank for isolated treatment. None of the other fish in the community tank were showing symptoms, because of this I didn't treat them. We lost the Platy about a week later, the community was never affected and months later all of those fish are still perfect.



I started with just one sick neon, I wish I had moved him to a separate tank


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## alto

Barbara Turner said:


> I have 10 neon tetras - 5 sick but have +50 cherry shrimps and a carpet of monte carlo and dwarf hair grass.


I'd not add PP to a shrimp tank - just my feeling though as I've done no research on PP & shrimps but suspect any effects would be species specific (as other chemical vs shrimp studies have shown)
I know that people have done PP dips on plants in the past (snail tx) but I don't dip plants & I don't recall the details 

How long have you had the neons?
When did the first show symptoms?
If this was less than a month, did you go back to the shop to look at their stock (not useful if shop has quick stock turnover ... unless you happen to see signs in other tanks) or enquire?


Are you continuing with ParaGuard in the tank? unlike Tea Tree Oil, this does have some proven efficacy against fish pathogens (not columnaris agent but will assist against secondary infections - which are always an issue in sick fish)

Note that delicate shrimp lines (eg, more inbred color lines or more sensitive species even if wild genotype) may be less resistant to various chemicals

I'd be inclined to dip the neons more frequently than once weekly - perhaps 3-5 Day interval - *but* this really depends on the symptoms & severity you're seeing 
(Your PP solution sounds fine, as long as you could measure 0.5g accurately ... I'd have chosen 5g weight/500ml, then add 15ml to15l water)


I suspect that as soon as you observed a single sick neon, others were also affected - it's fairly usual for this type of disease to move through the species shoal (especially when dealing with farm bred neons & cardinals)


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## Barbara Turner

alto said:


> How long have you had the neons?


I had 10 then added another 5 about a month ago, i noticed a small mark on his lip a couple of days after they were in the tank.. I just assumed he'd been bumped during transportation, it was a fungal infection that would either fix itself or that 1 fish would be found the following morning floating. 



alto said:


> (Your PP solution sounds fine, as long as you could measure 0.5g accurately


The scales were mean't to be accurate to 0.01g so i'm hoping they will be close enough.  5g would have possibly been a better way, I was initially planning on dosing them in a floating bag that only holds about 2 litres of water.. 




alto said:


> unlike Tea Tree Oil


 with a open tank the tea tree makes the whole room smell, probably about the only positive thing it does



alto said:


> Note that delicate shrimp lines (eg, more inbred color lines or more sensitive species even if wild genotype) may be less resistant to various chemicals



My shrimps are pretty low grade, probably doesn't help that i have a mix of yellow red and blue so the offspring are a real mixture.
. 


alto said:


> Are you continuing with ParaGuard in the tank?


I haven't put the paraguard in the tank, only bathed the fish for a couple of hours every other day for about a week. (2ml in 2 litres)


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## Barbara Turner

Here are some better pictures


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## alto

Do you feel they are looking better or worse - re more "fungus"/frayed fins etc?

Once again, I'd move them out of my community for continuous tx - when the damaged area in the fins travels from outer edges to the body, this is not a good sign 
It is possible that none of your other fish will become infected (though I'd be concerned about the ember tetras slowly developing symptoms) despite slowly losing all the neons, but I would hesitate to introduce similar "family" fish for quite some time


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## Barbara Turner

They might be marginally better after the PP bath. 

The Kanoplex and focus should arrive today so I can start all the fish on an antibiotic feed. hopefully they will like this when combined with freeze-dried bloodworm. 
The embers are also going to get the same treatment. 

I've also ordered a new nano heater so I can isolate them in a smaller tank, It's currently full of daphnia so there not going to be hungry for a while.


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## jameson_uk

Did the meds turn up and have they helped at all?


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## Barbara Turner

There 3 days in, seem happy eating the blood worm, focus, kanaplex mix. They might be marginally better but it's not a miracle treatment. 
I'm hoping it's going to take a while to start working being an antibiotic based 

Just wished it worked as well as the new skimmer that also just arrived.


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## alto

I'd try a continuous Kanamycin bath for 3 days then (shrimp may find this distressing so separate bin), in addition to feeding the medicated food

As you're not seeing much improvement after 3 days of medicated food, I'd continue for 7 days
Give them a couple days off & assess
Possibly repeat the 7 day course, or try an alternate antibiotic


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## Barbara Turner

I've got a nano tank i could use. I've bought
a new heater fot it, there not going to be hungry for a while as its current full of daphnia.


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## alto

I'd just decant the daphnia to another bin temporarily - it's important to continue the medicated food even while using the bath re the degree of infection


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## Barbara Turner

alto said:


> I'd just decant the daphnia to another bin temporarily - it's important to continue the medicated food even while using the bath re the degree of infection



All done and half of them transferred over, the last 4  were doing a very good job at hiding.
I have started dosing the tank  water every other day along with feeding them medicated food.

All the other non neon fish  in the tank still look healthy,  even if the main  tank is looking very empty.


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## alto

Well done

Sick fish = most expensive time consuming fish ever!


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## Andrew Butler

Is Esha 2000 no good for this? - Maybe a bit late to the party but it's part question too!
I know it's safe with shrimp.


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## Barbara Turner

I've had a few people recommend Esha 2000, I spent a while researching it and it's missing any real active ingredients,  I came to the conclusion that its basically giving the fish a vitamins and minerals supplement and relying on them getting better on there own.


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## Andrew Butler

Barbara Turner said:


> it's missing any real active ingredients


If what I read is true then ethacridine lactate and proflavine are amongst the ingredients of Esha 2000 which I I'm quite sure you would class as active ingredients.
I'm unsure what you read the ingredients were?


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## Edvet

Both products are antiseptic ( like soap or alcohol) not antibiotics


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## Barbara Turner

Andrew Butler said:


> If what I read is true then ethacridine lactate and proflavine are amongst the ingredients of Esha 2000 which I I'm quite sure you would class as active ingredients.
> I'm unsure what you read the ingredients were?



Re-reading the data sheet for Esha 2000, I got the wrong end of the stick. 
I'm not sure why halfway through the data sheet for Esha 2000 they start talking about Optima, when I skimmed through it I wrongly assumed they were still describing Esha 2000. 
I just read 

"is a blend of trace elements, vitamins, and minerals designed to keep you fish in the best health. It stimulates and supports the natural immune defenses and it speeds up full recovery from illness"

There is a link on there website here
http://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-2000supregsup.pdf

Reading further down it says it can be used as a disinfectant for fish, plants, and equipment so as you say it's a disinfectant.
 I'm surprised the liquid carbon I put in the water hasn't stopped it spreading, after all in concentrate form it's used to clean surgical equipment.


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## sparkyweasel

Ethacridine lactate and Proflavine are most effective on Gram-positive bacteria. _Columnaris _is Gram-negative, so probably wouldn't be much affected.


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## Barbara Turner

Hi Sparky, 
Are Ethacridine lactate and Proflavine available in the UK?  



sparkyweasel said:


> Ethacridine lactate and Proflavine


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## Andrew Butler

Barbara Turner said:


> Are Ethacridine lactate and Proflavine available in the UK


They are ingredients of Esha 2000 and I think what Sparky is saying is Columnaris is gram-negative whereas the above mentioned are most effective on gram-positive.
I think Ed is also saying the same kind of thing; the above are antiseptics NOT antibiotics.

As my first comment said it was part question and it seems I have been answered!


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## sparkyweasel

Only as ingredients in products like Esha 2000, which is probably useful for some conditions, but not likely to help with columnaris.


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