# High Tech Aquarium: Advice Needed



## mark4785 (28 Aug 2011)

I currently own a 120 litre planted aquarium which I've been running for about 1 year now. Due to the aquarium hood requiring 2 x 24w HO fluorescent lights to be installed and working properly simultaneously, it would be fair to say that the lighting output is very high. This high/powerful light resulted in a lot of algae growth (included green spot algae, blue-green algae, brown algae etc) forming and I had to throw countless plants away. At this point in time I was completely unaware that I would require pressurised Co2 dosing and an EI dosing regime; it was never explained to me that more light equals the necessity for more co2 and more fertiliser.

Once I established this principle, the aquarium plants began to grow better and I was throwing less plants away, however green spot/green mist/brown algae still continued to overwhelm the tank very quickly. Someone suggested to me that I try lowering the light level by placing lots of floating Amazon Frogbit into the tank; I followed this advice and it resulted in a complete halt of algal growth, however, I had to throw away one particular fast growing plant that died due to the lower light level.

One thing that I'd like to go back to is a planted aquarium with little or no floating Amazon Frogbit as they are effectively limiting the variation of plants that will thrive in the low-light conditions. For instance, while the AF have been installed I have had to throw away some Riccia fluitans (they were turning brown!) and Limnophila Sessiliflora becomes very frail.

The huge problem with removing the AF is that the algal problems will inevitable return. I removed a handful of the AF that was directly above the Riccia Fluitans in the hope that the additional light would cause a growth spurt but before I could witness this, a green mist of algae started to grow on the front pane of glass.

If I were to remove the AF, what would I need to do stop algae growth?

Here is what I currently do to maintain my planted aquarium:


Day 1: 50% water change. All filter media cleaned. Dose 15ml of Potassium Nitrate and 20ml of Potassium Phosphate
Day 2: Dose 10ml of Tropica Plant Nutrition (NOT TPN+)
Day 3: Same as Day 1
Day 4: Same as Day 2
Day 5: Same as Day 1
Day 6: Same as Day 2
Day 7: Rest day.

I use a Dennerle co2 comfort range set-up; co2 is always turned on 3 hours before lights on and 30 minutes before lights off. Drop-checker always indicates a light green colour when lights are on. Co2 is distributed via 2 nano powerheads.


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## Burnleygaz (28 Aug 2011)

how much flow do you have in total ? from the picture i can only see an internal filter+some koralias and your dosing seem`s a bit topsy turvy to me, plants usaully need more nitrates then they do phosphates. If it were me i`d look at increasing the plant mass as well, appears a bit sparse to my eyes. 

And are you using 4DKH water in the dropchecker ?


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## mark4785 (28 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> how much flow do you have in total ? from the picture i can only see an internal filter+some koralias and your dosing seem`s a bit topsy turvy to me, plants usaully need more nitrates then they do phosphates. If it were me i`d look at increasing the plant mass as well, appears a bit sparse to my eyes.
> 
> And are you using 4DKH water in the dropchecker ?



The total flow would be 2000 LPH from the internal UV filter, 300-400 LPH from the other internal (this is hardwired into the tank and very hard to remove) and I believe the Koralia's each provide 900 LPH of flow.

I'm using Bromo-blue in the drop-checker which is 4DKH water?

I do indeed want to include more plant mass but I'd like to first have some feature bog wood in the centre of the aquarium which I can attach plants to. In a separate topic I have open I am asking about methods of securing and holding bog wood pieces at varying angles from a piece of slate.


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## Burnleygaz (28 Aug 2011)

Bromo blue is just an indicator reagent , maybe you have a 4DKH + bromo blue combo? AE sells them hereif you don`t it makes the drop checker colour irrelevent , and to me your lighting doesnt seem over the top (but i dont have much experiance so i may be wrong).

what you done by using the frogbit was basically lower the plants demand for co2 and nutrients, hence why the algae stopped , and i see looking at your photo that you have some leaves with transparent edges at the back, and browning of plants in the foreground, which in my limited experiance always happens when i allow my tank to become too overgrown which starts to block flow > not enough co2 /nutrients getting to the plants (and this is in a 190 litre tank with 3800lph of rated flow ).

 I presume your fixture doesnt work with one bulb , so i`d look at ways of reducing the output , remove reflectors if you have them , and maybe find some kind of mesh/perspex etc to lower light output, as a simple glass top can decrease par levels by around 10-20%.


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## mark4785 (28 Aug 2011)

I think the browning is actually a natural response to high co2 in Cryptocoryne plants; I know this was stated as a possible effect on the plant shop's sale page.

I don't really want to further lower the light levels. I was wanting to do the opposite and have my plants still grow to a reasonable standard. This never happens, when I increase the light level.


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## Burnleygaz (28 Aug 2011)

Ancedotal maybe, but i have crypts and run in the region of 40-50ppm of co2 , and no browning, crypt melt is usually a good indicator of poor co2 and/or distribution 

If you dont want to lower the light then the answer is to fix your ferts first , what are you using to dose your nitrate+phosphate? dry powders or a commercial solution?

Once they are fixed it it leaves only one culprit


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## mark4785 (28 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> Ancedotal maybe, but i have crypts and run in the region of 40-50ppm of co2 , and no browning, crypt melt is usually a good indicator of poor co2 and/or distribution
> 
> If you dont want to lower the light then the answer is to fix your ferts first , what are you using to dose your nitrate+phosphate? dry powders or a commercial solution?
> 
> Once they are fixed it it leaves only one culprit



I am using dry powders which I place in demineralised water (250ml of it) ordered from the Fluidsensor. I dose according to an EI regime so I dose excess nitrate/phosphate according to the schedule already mentioned. On the days in which I dose macro-nutrients (the monopotassium phosphate and potassium nitrate) It would appear that I add what equates to 4ppm of phosphate (1ml of the 250ml solution equates to 0.19ppm of phosphate in a 120 litre aquarium; I dose 20ml) and 13.2 ppm of nitrate (1ml of the 250ml solution equates to 0.88ppm of nitrate in a 120 litre aquarium; I dose 15ml).


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## Burnleygaz (28 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> Bromo blue is just an indicator reagent , maybe you have a 4DKH + bromo blue combo? AE sells them hereif you don`t it makes the drop checker colour irrelevent , and to me your lighting doesnt seem over the top (but i dont have much experiance so i may be wrong).



Seem`s your ferts should be ok then , just quoting myself as i`d be looking at the co2 as the culprit if it was my tank.

Have you tried arranging all your pumps/filters so the flow is cohesive ? it appears to me that you have flow patterns that would conflict at the moment.Here is a thread i started around a year ago , with some nice info from clive concerning flow

I`d suggest ignoring your dropchecker for now and start turning the co2 up , maybe going 1/16th of a turn on the needle valve at a time and keeping a close eye on your fauna watching for signs of co2 toxicity (listlessness/lack of appetite/congregating near the surface).


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## GillesF (29 Aug 2011)

I agree with Burnleygaz

Add more NO3 (about 30ppm/week), I also recommend adding it multiple times a week, e.g. 3x 10ppm. It is possible that your plants are short on nitrate at the end of the week. Also point all of your pumps in the same direction, if they point towords eachother they will sort of negate the flow. Once you've improved the flow and the circulation, you will be able to add more CO2. Do this slowly, as soon as your fish start to gasp for air you've reached the limit.

CO2 limitation is probably the culprit of your problems, especially with that lighting. Unfortunately, it is one of the most difficult parameters to get right. Just take your time, the plant growth will improve week after week


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## mark4785 (30 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> Ancedotal maybe, but i have crypts and run in the region of 40-50ppm of co2 , and no browning, crypt melt is usually a good indicator of poor co2 and/or distribution
> 
> If you dont want to lower the light then the answer is to fix your ferts first , what are you using to dose your nitrate+phosphate? dry powders or a commercial solution?
> 
> Once they are fixed it it leaves only one culprit



Some of the crypts naturally turn brown with high co2 but the plant in the aquarium with the largest leaves seems to like brighter light levels; there are two of them in the aquarium and one closest to the right handside filter used to be on the other side of the aquarium in a darker area; the leaves turned brown/yellow (I thought this was a natural occurrence as the patterning of the decay actually made the plant look more interesting!) and I forgot to remove these when I relocated it.



> I agree with Burnleygaz
> 
> Add more NO3 (about 30ppm/week), I also recommend adding it multiple times a week, e.g. 3x 10ppm. It is possible that your plants are short on nitrate at the end of the week. Also point all of your pumps in the same direction, if they point towords eachother they will sort of negate the flow. Once you've improved the flow and the circulation, you will be able to add more CO2. Do this slowly, as soon as your fish start to gasp for air you've reached the limit.
> 
> CO2 limitation is probably the culprit of your problems, especially with that lighting. Unfortunately, it is one of the most difficult parameters to get right. Just take your time, the plant growth will improve week after week




All appliances' output to the left and the powerheads are slightly pointing downwards to keep the co2 at the lower levels. I didn't think this would create a problem and I'm unsure how I could further improve flow.

As for No3, I recently reached a level of over 120 ppm of Nitrate despite sticking to a EI regime. This tells me that the light level is very low causing the plants to barely use up any no3 OR there is not enough plants to use such a quantity up.

*I definitely would like to add more plants but I'm in the process of acquiring some slate and long bog wood twigs. Like many aquascapers seem to do, I'm going to glue the bog wood twigs to the slate and hide the glue-area with an assortment of pebbles. I'd then like to add some Taxiphyllum Barbieri and Anubias to the twigs/pebbles. Before I do all of this I'm going to replace my 2xT5 HO life-glo's with HO power-glo's and temporarily keep the Amazon Frogbit floating to see what happens in terms of plant growth. If I'm unable to grow the Barbieri (which I highly doubt) I'll begih removing some of the Frogbit as suggested.

Are there any large (possibly flowering) plants that I can plant aside the bog wood feature I've described above?? *


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## ceg4048 (30 Aug 2011)

Hi,
   Crypts never turn brown due to high CO2, but they might turn brown due to low CO2.

Cheers,


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## mark4785 (30 Aug 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Crypts never turn brown due to high CO2, but they might turn brown due to low CO2.
> 
> Cheers,



I purchased this: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/aquafle ... -4969.html . Hopefully that explains why it is brown.

I also have the green version of it as found here: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/aquafle ... -2788.html . This has 'red/brown veins' that have appeared.

As mentioned, the only plant turning brown unnaturally (through decay) is one of the 2 plant structures with the largest leaves. This is a light issue.


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## Burnleygaz (30 Aug 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry , but it is almost 100% certainly a co2 issue and not light (unless i`m misunderstanding and you mean too much ?) carbon makes up the majority of plant mass , and holes etc can usually be attributed to this.

for reference dwarf sag grown under 36 watts of t8 light in a 25 inch deep tank:





No browning, no holes, no discolouration etc. But very good c02 and ferts (50 ish ppm of co2 and i dose double ei values atm)

If your testing your nitrate levels with a hobby grade test kit be ready for a stern telling of from clive , they are almost always inacurate.

As far as changing your bulbs go, save your money unless you prefer the look of them, they will have no noticable effect on plant growth (positive or negative). Free your mind and start adjusting that needle valve and playing with flow


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## mark4785 (30 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> mark4785 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The dwarf sag are under high-light though so how would you know that is a reference to support good dispersion or quantity of  co2/nutrients. The facts are, light intensity dictates how much nutrients/co2 you need right? Well I'm dosing quite a lot of no2 and co2 and as far as I can see there are no issues with the distribution of these two things. The evidence to support this is that I don't have green-spot algae (typically caused by low phosphate) or blue-green algae (caused by low nitrate) so there are no deadspots or general issues with nutrient transport across the tank. The DC has been placed in different areas and it has confirmed ample co2 in all parts of the tank by showing a green colouration.

Whether or not enough nutrients and co2 are travelling is an issue that I didn't think would be discussed as I've just concluded a separate topic (link here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17404   ) in which there was over 120 ppm of nitrate in the aquarium. I'm well aware aquascapers don't bother with API nitrate test kits but I do and the Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi fishs' behaviour changed in a way that would imply nitrate-poisoning (i.e. gasping; a reaction that can occur when very high nitrate blocks the uptake of o2). Perhaps, phosphate is the variable that needs to be reviewed instead??

With re to the needle valve; why would I need to touch this when my DC indicates that I already have enough co2 in the tank? 

edit: is it possible for the large-leafed plant (as pictured on 1st page) to turn brown purely from bad light? i.e. hypothetically, co2 and nutrient dispersion is brilliant but the light level is too low. Just trying to work out why nutrient/co2 is being prioritised over the lighting.


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## Burnleygaz (30 Aug 2011)

36 watts by two tubes  of t 8 over a distance of two feet would qualify as low  light for sure here is a nice read about par vs distance with various lighting options.

The best test kit for your tank is always the plants themselves amd the fish whilst your dropchecker is telling you you have enough co2 your plants are saying otherwise and the fact that you get algae when you reduce the amount of frogbit implies that something is amiss wouldn't you agree?

can't help with the  fish related question much as its beyond my knowledge level but if I have to be away from my tank for the week due to work I dose my full ferts in one go which is over 100 ppm of kno3 alone with no ill effects to date


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## foxfish (30 Aug 2011)

Hi Mark, I think you problem is C02 related!
I say this because your kind of issues are nearly always cured by better gas distribution or more gas introduction.
If it were possible to introduce a full length spray bar & a external inline atomiser I would be prepared to bet money your plant growth would improve


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## mark4785 (30 Aug 2011)

> can't help with the fish related question much as its beyond my knowledge level but if I have to be away from my tank for the week due to work I dose my full ferts in one go which is over 100 ppm of kno3 alone with no ill effects to date



I can believe that if you have small shoaling fish like I do; my black neon tetras did not mind the high nitrate. I'd say certain fish are in a league of their own though, i.e. the german blue ram. I'd feel very anxious and upset if I dosed 100ppm in one go in a tank containing a GBR. There is an explanation in chemistry which underpins the idea of high nitrate causing gasping but I suppose the hardy fish are able to cope.



> Hi Mark, I think you problem is C02 related!
> I say this because your kind of issues are nearly always cured by better gas distribution or more gas introduction.
> If it were possible to introduce a full length spray bar & a external inline atomiser I would be prepared to bet money your plant growth would improve



Thanks for your suggestions.

What would the spraybar do to help? Also, what do I need to introduce an external inline atomiser?

If I made the above changes do I no longer need powerheads?


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## foxfish (30 Aug 2011)

Generally speaking spray bars are excepted as - if not the best - a very effective way to get even C02 distribution throughout the tank.
They work by sending a flow of water enriched with C02 across the surface of the tank & in a circular fashion down the front & across the bottom!
However you would need to revise them a bit as the hole size & length needs to match the flow...
Also not every body feels they work as well as they are cracked up to be!! Neither do they look the most attractive however for many of us - spray bars rule   
Most folk use an external filter retuning through an atomiser & finally a spray bar.
All the info is on the site in detail...


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## mark4785 (30 Aug 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Generally speaking spray bars are excepted as - if not the best - a very effective way to get even C02 distribution throughout the tank.
> They work by sending a flow of water enriched with C02 across the surface of the tank & in a circular fashion down the front & across the bottom!
> However you would need to revise them a bit as the hole size & length needs to match the flow...
> Also not every body feels they work as well as they are cracked up to be!! Neither do they look the most attractive however for many of us - spray bars rule
> ...



I'd obviously have to remove the interal filter before installing an external..

One of my internal filters is hardwired into the aquarium (the one that looks like a black box on the right hand side) together with the light ballast and heater. They are all connected to one plug. An electrician who we have relied on for over 20 years explained that if the internal filter was removed from the circuit, not only would it devoid the warranty but it could result in damage to the other hardwired appliances through too much electricity being directed to two products instead of a small amount shared between three products. There is also not enough room for an external filter in what is a small room ('fish room') dedicated to fish.

Unless someone could remove all three appliances and help me get my filter media fitted in a compact size external filter and install a new light ballast all in one day, I'm not interested! 

I'd like to ideally have a healthy planted aquarium with what appliances I have; is this not possible?!


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## Burnleygaz (30 Aug 2011)

which side is the hardwired filter on ? and which way does it direct your flow ? thirdly, is there anyway of altering which way the outflow nozzle points.


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## mark4785 (30 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> which side is the hardwired filter on ? and which way does it direct your flow ? thirdly, is there anyway of altering which way the outflow nozzle points.



The pane of glass on the right side. The flow goes directly leftwards and the direction to which the nozzle points can't be altered.


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## Burnleygaz (31 Aug 2011)

That's not so bad. I'd suggest moving your other filter and the power heads over to the right side and point them all at the left side glass with the outlets as high as you can get them without causing the flow to break the surface of the water.
 Then place your co 2 diffuser on the left side pane as close to the substrate as possible .

 This should get you a nice circular flow patten with the water flowing along the surface and when it hits the left side it should be encouraged to head down towards the substrate to your diffuser , then it will take co 2 over the plants back towards your filters .

 My only concern would be that its quite a distance for the water to travel but I believe although not optimal it we would be an improvement on the current situation.


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## mark4785 (31 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> That's not so bad. I'd suggest moving your other filter and the power heads over to the right side and point them all at the left side glass with the outlets as high as you can get them without causing the flow to break the surface of the water.
> Then place your co 2 diffuser on the left side pane as close to the substrate as possible .
> 
> This should get you a nice circular flow patten with the water flowing along the surface and when it hits the left side it should be encouraged to head down towards the substrate to your diffuser , then it will take co 2 over the plants back towards your filters .
> ...



Right ok, I'll make some adjustments but I think the internal filter appliance by itself (to the left of the tank) should stay there and continue to point leftwards. I think moving this over to the right side with the rest of the appliances will make the tank look very unattractive.

I didn't realise you'd put the co2 diffuser as a far away as possible from the outlet pipes. My concern with placing it on the left side is the same as your concern; the co2 bubbles will probably just float to the surface and not travel in any sort of a circular motion. This occurred before I installed the powerheads.


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## Burnleygaz (31 Aug 2011)

If it were me i`d worry about getting the tank working right first, then once everything is growing niceley with minimal algae i`d look to getting the asethetics sorted, its a matter of prioritising your goals for the moment and deciding what is more important to you for a month or 2 . Obviously its your tank but you need to get all that energy in the water working together rather than having flow patters interacting and wasting energy. 

 The flow from the filters and powerheads should force the co2 bubbles dowards rather then letting them go up , but you can never be sure of these things till you try it


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## mark4785 (31 Aug 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> If it were me i`d worry about getting the tank working right first, then once everything is growing niceley with minimal algae i`d look to getting the asethetics sorted, its a matter of prioritising your goals for the moment and deciding what is more important to you for a month or 2 . Obviously its your tank but you need to get all that energy in the water working together rather than having flow patters interacting and wasting energy.
> 
> The flow from the filters and powerheads should force the co2 bubbles dowards rather then letting them go up , but you can never be sure of these things till you try it



Due to the dimensions of the appliance (on the left pane), moving it to the right-side is not an option. It will get in the way of plants, the outlet pipe of the other filter, the power heads etc. 

The best option would be for me to throw the appliance away and source an external filter (should be able to find room for this if small). I have an external filter working with my pond but I have no idea how to operate and fix externals to an aquarium. I think the outlet pipe for externals is around 12mm (1.2cm) which is too big to fit through the small gap that is carved between the rim of the tank and the hood; can this hole be made bigger in a safe way? (i.e. no cracked glass!)

If I did get a compact external filter running, I'd be interested in one of those inline diffusers. Again this is something I have no experience with. Where would this be installed in conjunction with the external filter hardware?

Thanks,
Mark.


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## foxfish (1 Sep 2011)

Can you show us a few more pics, I would like to see inside the lid as your tank, with its permanent fixings, is not something I am familiar with!
It must be possible to attach a spray bar onto one of your pump outlets...


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