# Newbie with Low Light + CO2 Supplemented Tank



## faizal (26 Mar 2011)

Hi everyone. I am just a newbie and I had recentely started off my  first freshwater planted aquarium. I read a lot about UKAPS from the threads posted by members in other forums but I never really took the time to visit the website until March of this year. My first impression was ,..."Wow,..What a really well thought out website ." Especially the tutorials and articles section. Everything was expained in a very simple & easy to understand manner.

I signed up and posted my first thread about 3 weeks ago and it's been an amazing learning experience ever since.   

So anyways,...I am posting this Journal up with hopes that I can share with other like minded newbies about what the UKAPS moderators had thought me and also to get help from everyone as my tank progresses. Unfortunately this is definitely not about showing off my tank   because it is absolutely NOTHING in comparison to most of the tank pictures I have seen here. Just a humble sharing of my experiences with hopes that I can get more help along the way.

Okay,...that said. Here's how my tank looked on the first day that I visited  UKAPS :

INITIAL SET UP OF THE FILTER INLET & OUTFLOW PIPES :






Clive had more than just nudged me in the right direction with regards to CO2 Management & Flow Pattern in the tank.
Here's how it looked again after the appropriate adjustments with regards to the water flow pattern:




And this is a picture of Day 1 of Planting:












I am having a bit of a problem now though,...it's Day 4 since set up and although most of the plants are doing well namely the Limnophila "Vietnam" species, Hygrophilla difformis & Hygrophilla polysperma, some old nana petite from my old fish tank and the staurogynes, the Blyxias are some sort of under going a rapid browning of leaves that seems to start from the tip which progresses very fast  

I have removed most of the leaves. I am still in the process of tweaking my co2.

Is this normal for Blyxias? Or are they more sensitive to optimal CO2 in comparison to the other plants?

My Dosing regime is:
Saturday= 80% Water chage + 1/4 teaspoon Seachem Equilibrium
Sundays= 5ml Seachem Flourish
Mondays= 1/4 tsp KNO3 + 1/16th tsp KH2PO4
Tuesdays: 5ml Seachem Flourish
Wednesdays= 1/4th tsp KNO3 + 1/16th tsp KH2PO4
Thursdays= 5ml Flourish
Fridays= 1/4 tsp KNO3 + 1/16 tsp KH2PO4

Tank details:
Tank volume : 16.8 US Gallons ( 23.5 inches length, 14 inches height, 12 inches depth)

Lights : 2 T5s of 8 watts each ( Total 16 watts). Photoperiod 8pm till 2am ( 6 Hours)

Filter: 450L/hr rating. China made. Also attached a spray bar to outlet of Eheim pump's(Right rear corner) outlet.

Sustrate: 60% Seachem Flourite + 40% 2-3mm sized inert sand like gravel

Pressurized C02 injection via a ceramic diffuser

The video of Blyxia's rotting can be found here:



If the video is not able to play. Kindly search youtube for Withering Blyxias.
Need help please.

Faizal


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## ceg4048 (26 Mar 2011)

Hi mate,
            Looks pretty nice so far. This is your answer:


			
				faizal said:
			
		

> ...more sensitive to optimal CO2 in comparison to the other plants..


They should regrow as long as the CO2 is in good shape. Since you have no fish, don't be afraid to tweak the injection rate so that it is on the high side.

Cheers,


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## faizal (27 Mar 2011)

Hey Clive!! 

Thank you but THE TANK LOOKS THE WAY IT LOOKS THERE BECAUSE OF YOU !!!     
NOT ME!!! BUT YOU !!!

I increased the bubble rate to 2 bps last night. The drop checker started off as blue at the time the lights came on but within 2 hrs into the photoperiod,...it turned green. And it remained green even after about 5 hours post lights out time. 

The current flow strength from the cannister filter outlet appears relatively stronger than the flow from my Eheim pump's spray bar. This despite the pump being rated 1000L/hr and the cannister rated as 450L. Clive,...do you think that the reason for this could be due to the fact that the diameter of the Pump's Spray Bar being larger than that of my cannister filter outlet?

How does one test to see if he has optimal flow? Most of my plants do sway gently in the "breeze". Would it hurt if I replaced the current pvc (grey) spray bar and the Eheim pump with another big muscled cannister filter? Just a thought or should I keep my hands to my self and let the system settle in?  

I freaked out a little when I saw those Blyxias leaves turning brown but a voice in my head (it must have been Morpheus')   kept telling me to be patient and keep my hands off the co2 needle valve until the lights go out (then tweak it) and just remove the dead leaves.

All this is really cool, y'know?  

Faizal


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## ceg4048 (28 Mar 2011)

Hi mate,
              Remember that the dropchecker needs to be lime green (the inside juicy part of the lime) when the lights come on. Blyxa (and other advanced plants) will be in serious trouble if it's blue at this point. That means of course that you'll need to turn the gas on early enough before lights on to achieve this. I would fix this first before contemplating any other changes. CO2 is as much art as science....

Cheers,


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## faizal (28 Mar 2011)

Thanks Clive. 

I will do as you had advised. Sorry for getting carried away there.  

So,...I am currently running the tank at 3bps ( I increased the injection rate prior to lights on ). Currently my CO2 injection starts 2 hours prior to lights on time but I think maybe the high temperature of my tank (31- 32'C) is making things a bit tricky (i.e. less gas holding capacity??).

I started my co2 injection 2 hours prior to lights on & at the rate of 3bps,.....the drop checker was bluish-green with a tinge of green forming at the upper half of my JBL Drop Checker. So I think i am getting closer to the preffered range. I am not tweaking it further during lights on period but currently just letting it run its course for the day. 

Tomorrow I will increase the injection rate a little further to 4 bps and start the co2 injection 3 hours before lights on.

I hope i am on the right track. 

Thank you for setting things straight again.

Faizal


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## faizal (29 Mar 2011)

Just as an alternative though,...do you think there might be another bushy plants that I could use that's easy on CO2 in case my Blyxas don't make it? Just a thought.


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## mdhardy01 (29 Mar 2011)

Have you thought about turning the gas on 3 hours before lights on?
And if you have no inhabitants why such high temperature?
Matt


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## ceg4048 (29 Mar 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> ...I think maybe the high temperature of my tank (31- 32'C) is making things a bit tricky (i.e. less gas holding capacity??).


Yes that has a lot to do with it, but also the fact that the tank is open to atmosphere and does not have a tight lid on it. But to keep things in perspective, everyone has these problems, even those people living in cooler climes. People who have planted discus tanks suffer the same dilemma, for example, because they keep the tanks warmer for these fish.

Plants gently swaying in the breeze is as good an indication of any that the flow is excellent. One then only has to be sure that the water that is causing the swaying is properly saturated with nutrients/CO2. If fish were not sensitive to CO2 toxicity then this would be easy to achieve. Finding an efficient way of dissolving the gas within that flow is where the real challenge is. It would be ideal if somehow you could marry your diffuser with your spraybars. Some people inject the gas directly into the external filter so that the filter impeller chops up the bubbles, dissolves the gas better, and then dumps it into the spraybar. So there are a few ways to skin the cat but as long as you understand what the goal is that will enable you to solve the riddle of your particular tank based on the resources you have at your disposal.

Cheers,


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## faizal (29 Mar 2011)

Hi Matt,...thanks for the suggestion. I have  currently started co2 injection 3 hours prior lights on at 4bps. And today by the time the lights came on,..my DC had a lime green colour. My tanks temperature is high because I live in Malaysia, South East Asia.   

Unfortunately though,...since my tank's co2 level had been at a sub-optimal range over the past week,...my Blyxas have really taken a hard beating just as Clive had mentioned earlier. I am not so sure if they would be able to recover.

Any suggestions of an alternative midground plant please? How about Limnophila sessiliflora or Cabomba caroliniana or Red Myriophyllum?

Clive,...I came across this inline atomic diffuser by UP --> UP NEW INLINE ATOMISER SYSTEM. One connects it to the cannister filter outflow . Do you think I should opt for one? Would it provide a better co2 dissolution and co2 distribution since it IS directly connected to the spray bar?

I would really like to know your thoughts on this please.

Again ,...any suggestions of an alternative midground bushy plant to replace the Blyxas please?  

Faizal


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## mdhardy01 (29 Mar 2011)

There are quite a few members using the up atomiser including myself
The bonus of these is that they produce a mist in the tank which means you can see exactly where the gas is going the co2 is also in direct contact with the plants which im lead to believe is more beneficial to the plants( correct me if I'm wrong Clive ) 
The down side is that the tank can look slightly cloudy because of the fine co2 mist which some members don't like ( I myself don't mind it) I run mine on a 500l tank and find it very efficient 
As for the blyxa I would give it a little more time to recover because once it does it grows like wildfire and at one point I had nearly a full carpet of it
Matt


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## ceg4048 (30 Mar 2011)

Yeah, I agree with Matt. Blyxa stays at the right height for this tank and it's not good to give up on it otherwise you won't be able to grow other plants that have similar needs, so you have to conquer the difficulties with this plant in order to progress. In any case the tank size makes things difficult. Any of the Rotala species will do because they generally have smaller leaves which are more proportional to the smaller tank size. Didiplis diandra also is proportional. Juncus repens (although not my favourite) and any Lilaeopsis are bushy without outgrowing the tank (which would require constant pruning). The plants that you listed would grow annoyingly tall for a midground specimen.

Regarding the inline unit you mentioned, I'd say yes. Anything inline is better than the in-tank disks. If you have the opportunity to get one I would definitely go for it, no question.

Cheers,


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## faizal (30 Mar 2011)

Did I ever mention that you guys at UKAPS are awesome? No,...scrap that. YOU GUYS ARE AMAZINGLY AWESOME !!!!
I am so sorry but I totally hooked on this group!!!  

Thank you so much Matt for your optimistic advise. I have not removed the Blyxas completely. It's just that I had removed so many dying leaves this past week that the plant looks nearly bald. I have replanted them again on the left side of the tank.Hence as a result the right mid- ground region of the tank is looking rather bare   . That's the reason why I'm looking for an extra plant.  I'll upload a photo soon after a water change this weekend. 

Speaking of water changes,...I have been uprooting a lot this past week,...mainly due to the Blyxas rotting. I haven't been doing any water changes after that. I don't see any other algae except but for a small amount of brown algae on 2 of the staurogynes and some on the aquarium glass. If the blyxas are going to take some time to recuperate and since I am going to have to uproot them now and then in order to remove the dead leaves,...will this cause an issue of ammonia spikes. I am using Flourite as substarate. No soils.

 Or SHOULD I BE DOING SMALL WATER CHANGES EVERY TIME I UPROOT AND REMOVE THE BLYXA'S DYING LEAVES? 

I need to uproot them because I don't just snip off the dying leaves but I sort of peel the leaves off from the main plant from the base of the stalk.

Clive,....yeah I just checked on how Juncus repens looks like & I don't think it's my favourate plant either. You are absolutely right . I won't up on the Blyxas. I had just moved what was left of them to a corner. Initially they were just beneath the T5s,...so I thought maybe if I moved them to the side a bit,...they won't be getting too much of the direct light and in doing so, I was hoping to further reduce the  present co2 stress that they are undergoing. ( I realise here that I am running a low light tank anyways  )

Thank you for your choices of plants,...I think I will go with the rotala species for that bare spot in the tank.  

I found this shop selling the UP Inline Atomizer in Singapore. I am sure there must be a place selling the same unit here on the island. I need to do some shopping then.

Thank you and I'll keep you posted.

Faizal


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## mdhardy01 (30 Mar 2011)

As another option you could use Vallis nana ? This is not like the other types of Vallis but stays fairly short but not as short as the blyxa but if planted in a clump could give quite a pleasing look.
Clive quickie for you - am I right in saying that a mist is more beneficial to plants rather than dissolved ?
Matt


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## Anonymous (30 Mar 2011)

hi im likeing the layout the placement of the rocks seems very well thought out how ever the contrast in coulors and texture of the rocks is a bit dis jointed and would have a more natural feel if they where all the same sort


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## ceg4048 (30 Mar 2011)

*Re:*



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> ...am I right in saying that a mist is more beneficial to plants rather than dissolved ?


Hi Matt,
    Well, the mist-being-better-than-dissolved concept comes from Barr's analysis of some of the more advanced CO2 injection techniques, which involve either implementation of industrial pneumatic injectors (Mazzei), or the pin-wheel type filter impellers which chop the bubbles up into a fine mist. 

According to Barr, when very small bubble sizes make contact with the leaf, this effectively means that the CO2 penetrates the boundary layer above the leaf surface (which is usually an obstacle for the gas and nutrients) and approximates atmospheric CO2 availability, which therefore produces better CO2 absorption. So in a way it's like simulating having the leaf out of the water from a CO2 perspective...if that makes any sense.

It's not clear to me though whether the so called atomizers produce bubble sizes small enough to be as effective. It's easy to say that one has a "mist" but how fine is that mist in comparison to the mist created by those advanced techniques? In a real mist you should not be able, with the naked eye, to resolve the size of the bubble. It would appear as a fog or cloud, not as bubbles. Furthermore, the distribution method must force contact between the mist and the leaves. So just having a bunch of bubbles floating around the tank does not necessarily mean that one has a mist in this sense of the word.

If one doesn't have anything approaching a true mist, then in general, bubbles floating around is less effective and less efficient than proper dissolving of the gas into the water, because the bubbles simply escape like balloons at a parade.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> Speaking of water changes,...I have been uprooting a lot this past week,...mainly due to the Blyxas rotting. I haven't been doing any water changes after that.


Faizal, the best policy generally is to be very disciplined about water changes. CO2 injected tank produce a lot of organic waste which needs to be removed as often as possible otherwise this exacerbates algal blooms. you should be doing at least a 50% water change 2X-3X per week for the first 6-8 weeks and then just 1X per week after that. Keeping the tank immaculately clean is of vital importance.

Cheers,


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## faizal (30 Mar 2011)

*"ceg4048 wrote* :   ''Faizal, the best policy generally is to be very disciplined about water changes. CO2 injected tank produce a lot of organic waste which needs to be removed as often as possible otherwise this exacerbates algal blooms. you should be doing at least a 50% water change 2X-3X per week for the first 6-8 weeks and then just 1X per week after that. Keeping the tank immaculately clean is of vital importance.''

But Clive,...I am confused. I thought Barr advocated EI dosing with only ONCE a week water changes to re-set the tank's nutrient levels? If I do 2-3 water changes a week,...wouldn't the levels of my nutrients become sub-optimal? Please correct me if I am wrong here. IF I DO 2-3 TIMES WATER CHANGES A WEEK,...DO I STILL FOLLOW THE NORMAL EI DOSING REGIME ??

My dosing regime is on Page One.

Would it also be a good idea to add Seachem's Purigen in my cannister filter?


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## faizal (30 Mar 2011)

bw577162 said:
			
		

> hi im likeing the layout the placement of the rocks seems very well thought out how ever the contrast in coulors and texture of the rocks is a bit dis jointed and would have a more natural feel if they where all the same sort




Thank you bw577162    Now that you mentioned it,....yes I guess they are a bit dis jointed. Actually I would be very happy if I manage to keep the plants in good health first, y'know?   

Once I am convinced of that,...aquascaping is a whole new league for me,...(especially when compared to most of the  aquarists here).

I would be very happy indeed if I could just maintain this tank for another year. I cannot think beyond that for now.

Thank you so much for taking the time to look though.   

Faizal


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## gmartins (30 Mar 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> *"ceg4048 wrote* :
> But Clive,...I am confused. I thought Barr advocated EI dosing with only ONCE a week water changes to re-set the tank's nutrient levels? If I do 2-3 water changes a week,...wouldn't the levels of my nutrients become sub-optimal? Please correct me if I am wrong here. IF I DO 2-3 TIMES WATER CHANGES A WEEK,...DO I STILL FOLLOW THE NORMAL EI DOSING REGIME ??



this one I can handle   

As long as you dose after the water change you'll be ok. you'll never run out of nutrients as you replenish the tank after each water change. So yes, do follow the normal EI dosing regime.

cheers, GM


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## mdhardy01 (30 Mar 2011)

Hi Clive
Thanks for clearing that up,I would say that the up atomiser actually produces very tiny bubbles and not a mist as to your analogy,but I suppose that being as small as they are they are in contact with the leaves and also suspended in the water column for a longer period therefore giving a better dissolution , before using one I was using a aqua medic 1000 and found it hard to get my dc lime without your type of injection rate LOL
Now I get lime dc easier and can tell where my flow is good nod not so good and adjust flow accordingly.
Many thanks Clive 
Sorry for the hijack Faizal 
Matt


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## plantbrain (30 Mar 2011)

*Re: Re:*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> According to Barr, when very small bubble sizes make contact with the leaf, this effectively means that the CO2 penetrates the boundary layer above the leaf surface (which is usually an obstacle for the gas and nutrients) and approximates atmospheric CO2 availability, which therefore produces better CO2 absorption. So in a way it's like simulating having the leaf out of the water from a CO2 perspective...if that makes any sense.
> 
> It would appear as a fog or cloud, not as bubbles. Furthermore, the distribution method must force contact between the mist and the leaves. So just having a bunch of bubbles floating around the tank does not necessarily mean that one has a mist in this sense of the word.



I only have indirect ways to confirm this idea however.

If we used say air and a mist of this, or N2 gas would be best since it neither degasses nor adds CO2, to break up the boundary layer.......then this would differentiate the forms of the CO2, CO2 gas vs say dissolved CO2[aq].

The boundary layer issue is a biggie though, a sticky gas bubble with adhesion can pull off algae from leaves and increase uptake considerably. More flow can also. Maybe it's the form of gas itself, hard to say. It's just a hypothesis and there's a few others like the boundary layer that might be some if not most of the effect.

One thing folks do seem to agree on, it works very well(misting). I can and have measured differences in growth via O2 ppm's of 10-20% higher for the same pH/KH for CO2 and a CO2 meter which is quite a bit.
Still, a fair amount remains to be tested, confirmed and teased apart.

Just wanted folks to know it's not something that is 100% clear :idea: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (30 Mar 2011)

*Re:*



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> Hi Clive
> Thanks for clearing that up,I would say that the up atomiser actually produces very tiny bubbles and not a mist as to your analogy,but I suppose that being as small as they are they are in contact with the leaves and also suspended in the water column for a longer period therefore giving a better dissolution , before using one I was using a aqua medic 1000 and found it hard to get my dc lime without your type of injection rate LOL
> Now I get lime dc easier and can tell where my flow is good nod not so good and adjust flow accordingly.
> Many thanks Clive
> ...



Just keep the diffusers clean, good and clean, I soak mine in Tilex(a stronger version of bleach) for about 10 min till they are totally white and return to service. This keeps the mist consistent and tiny.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ceg4048 (31 Mar 2011)

Yep, there you go Matt. Straight from the horses mouth. What Tom mentions about the percentage improvement is consistent with what you and other experienced with the atomizer, so faizal should do all right with this.



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> ...The boundary layer issue is a biggie though, a sticky gas bubble with adhesion can pull off algae from leaves and increase uptake considerably. More flow can also. Maybe it's the form of gas itself, hard to say. It's just a hypothesis and there's a few others like the boundary layer that might be some if not most of the effect.
> 
> ...Still, a fair amount remains to be tested, confirmed and teased apart.
> 
> Just wanted folks to know it's not something that is 100% clear :idea:


OK, good stuff. I'd buy the idea of biofilm disruption and boundary layer penetration Tom, but it's interesting that you mention that the form of the gas might be a factor as well. Is there data which indicates higher Rubisco affinity for gaseous versus aqueous CO2? Or would it be an issue of easier transportation across the epidermal cell wall?

Cheers,


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## faizal (31 Mar 2011)

gmartins said:
			
		

> this one I can handle
> As long as you dose after the water change you'll be ok. you'll never run out of nutrients as you replenish the tank after each water change. So yes, do follow the normal EI dosing regime.
> cheers, GM



Thank you,....gmartins. Thank you for clearing it up.That was such a simple & effective solution.   I will do that from now on.



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> Sorry for the hijack Faizal  Matt



Absolutely no problem at all !!   Feel free to hijack it anytime. I 'm making so many new friends here!!!  . If you all lived close by ,..I would have asked you to come home for dinner this weekend  

I wake up in the morning and find Tom Barr   posting on this thread!!!! This just keeps getting better and better everyday!!

Sorry. Do excuse my dropping jaw  
 



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> ........Just wanted folks to know it's not something that is 100% clear :idea:
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



 I read that many times over,...but it is way way way out of my league.  But thank you,....Big Fan here!!!  



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yep, there you go Matt. Straight from the horses mouth. What Tom mentions about the percentage improvement is consistent with what you and other experienced with the atomizer, so faizal should do all right with this.
> 
> Cheers,



Hey Clive ,...Thank you for clearing it up . So I had just found the shop that sells the UP Inline Atomizer but they have run out of stock. Apparently the new stock is due for arrival next month. If anything in line would be a good idea,....I think I  will try to get a simple inline co2 reactor that I saw in one of the shops,...I don't have a picture but its about 15cm in height and roughly about 4cm in diameter. One can't put bio balls inthem because it has this impeller at the bottom of the chamber which is supposed to chop up the co2 bubbles and the outlet is fed into spraybars. I thought i'd use one temporarily while I wait for my Atomizer y'know? Thanks for everything.


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## mdhardy01 (31 Mar 2011)

Hi faizal 
Thanks for the invite if I'm ever in Malaysia i might take you up on the dinner offer.
When you get the reactor post up some pics so we can see what it's like, I'm sure there are other members like me who are always on the lookout for a different method of breaking up and injecting gas.
Clive would a Eheim 2180 be powerful enough to run a mazzei injector or an fx5? I have both and would love to give one a go.
Matt


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## ceg4048 (31 Mar 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> ....I think I  will try to get a simple inline co2 reactor that I saw in one of the shops,...I don't have a picture but its about 15cm in height and roughly about 4cm in diameter. One can't put bio balls inthem because it has this impeller at the bottom of the chamber which is supposed to chop up the co2 bubbles and the outlet is fed into spraybars. I thought i'd use one temporarily while I wait for my Atomizer y'know? Thanks for everything.


Hi mate, yeah this sounds like a good idea. What powers the impeller, electric? If it works well you may not even need to get the atomizer.



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> would a Eheim 2180 be powerful enough to run a mazzei injector or an fx5? I have both and would love to give one a go.


Hi Matt, the industrial injectors are typically used as a solution in large to very large tanks (100G and up) and with dedicated external pumps. One also has to design a circuit and match the injectors size to the pump capacity. I think zig was going to try this using an FX5 but I'm not sure if he had any success. In any case it's a much more complicated affair so I can't give you a straightforward answer to that.  :? 

Cheers,


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## mdhardy01 (31 Mar 2011)

Thanks for that Clive 
I've looked into it a bit more and it's not just a case of sticking one inline as i thought looks more like you have to add a bypass 
I'll think about it a bit more and if I do go ahead I'll start a post 
Thanks again
Matt


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## faizal (2 Apr 2011)

mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> Hi faizal
> Thanks for the invite if I'm ever in Malaysia i might take you up on the dinner offer.
> When you get the reactor post up some pics so we can see what it's like, I'm sure there are other members like me who are always on the lookout for a different method of breaking up and injecting gas.
> Matt



You are most welcome, my friend. If you do happen make that visit, we'd be glad to have you home for dinner !!!  

Yes. I will be going to the shop this evening to get the new little co2 reactor. Will post the picture as soon as possible



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi mate, yeah this sounds like a good idea. What powers the impeller, electric? If it works well you may not even need to get the atomizer.
> 
> Cheers,



That's the thing,....I don't think it runs on anything really. I think it's most probably driven by the outflow current of the filter. I will be sure to post the picture once I get it.


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## faizal (2 Apr 2011)

Clive,...remember when you first told me that the Drop Checker has to be Green as the inside juicy part of a lime, my first instinct was to cut one open. I should have followed that instinct through. What I did instead was I imagined what the juicy part's colour would have been like and then I  went to the Cal Aqua Website and referred to this picture chart:






The problem is the lime green according to this chart is no. 3,....but when I did finally cut open a lime yesterday,..I noticed that my lime's green was more of a green that was in between No.4-5. MY JBL DROP CHECKER READS 4 WHEN THE LIGHTS COME ON. WITHIN 2 HOURS IT TURNS INTO NO. 5.

Then 2 days ago,...I noticed this :






The 2 plants on the  RIGHT SIDE of the tray that you see below were actually growing right next to the co2 diffuser. The browning had already started on their lower half.






Now I know that for good growth,....not only should the co2 be at a good level but there should also be the following :

1. A Light level that compliments in its intensity so as to keep the co2 & nutrient stress at a minimal range.
2. A Good Flow Rate and Distribution 
3. Good Fertilization Regime.

I am dosing EI,...so its not the ferts,...My lights are okay (I think,...because I don't have a PAR meter but the Hygrophila Polysperma & Hygrophila Difformis are slowly forming roots and the Saturogyne are also doing well)

Then after pulling out all the dead / dying plants ,...I did a major water change. That's when I noticed this :





MY 4 YEAR OLD  COULD "WEE-WEE" FURTHER THAN THAT !!!  





So if my DC is showing the NO.4 in that chart and within 2 hrs becomes N0.5,....does that mean I have enough co2?
And if I do have enough co2,...is it safe to presume that despite having enough co2 in the water,..the above Limnophila vietnam sp melted due to poor circulation in my tank (Grey PVC Spray Bar with poor outflow)??

I am not feeling dejected but I am glad that I am trying to diagnose the issue at hand. I think I'm going to get a Tetra tec ex90 this evening. It's rated at 720 Litres/Hr. My aquarium is 64 Litres. assuming  there's a loss of 40% in water turn over capacity of the filter due to filter media,..I should be getting a 432Litres / hr. This coupled with the spary bar from the China made filter,..should give me about a collective 10 times water turn over rate by both filters combined.

Or do you think there could be another reason for the melt?

I'd really love to hear your thoughts on these, guys. Help needed again.


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## mdhardy01 (2 Apr 2011)

Hi faizal
Looking at the plants the tops seem to be doing ok the melt is at the bottom closer to the substrate which would to me indicate poor flow. The dc colour tells you that your co2 is good higher up which is why the plant tops look ok so an upgrade on the filter would be a good idea or you could try making another spray bar with smaller holes spaced further apart you could try this before outlaying on a new filter? But if you want to get the pump out of the tank then go for it?
As to flow rates ( Clive correct me if I'm wrong) the 10x rule is based on stated flow not actual flow once media is added so you would have more than enough with the new filter?
Matt


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## ceg4048 (2 Apr 2011)

Hi faizal,
               That flow coming out of the bars is completely unacceptable. If you have a 16 gallon tank then acceptable combined flow rating should be somewhere around 160 gallons per hour. If it just dribbles out of the spraybar as you show then there is either something wrong with the filter or it's flow rating woefully inadequate.

It's very difficult for the gas to dissolve and find it's way to every nook and cranny. Melting and disintegration is only ever due to poor CO2, and as Matt says, you can see that the leaves in the more open areas are in better contact with the gas than are the leaves/stem hidden behind rocks and tucked away.

Can you see now why we try and dissuade people from concentrating too much on sexy mega-lighting? Distribution of CO2 is THE single most difficult project associated with the planted tank.

Don't get mad, get glad, because you now know the path forward.  

Cheers,


----------



## faizal (4 Apr 2011)

Sorry,...  I never really checked the flow before planting y'know? I just assumed everything was okay. Anyways I think the tank's temperature is also making things a bit challenging ( 32'C ).  

I am up for it though   ,...I'm lucky I have you guys helping me  ,..otherwise I would have been groping in the dark. That would have been much much worse.

So I've got the Tetra Tec ex90 and the new co2 reactor and I will be fixing them up today.
The tetra tec is rated as 720 L/ Hr. I think that's about 190 US Gallons/ Hr,....so as Matt had advised me,...I think I will run the tank with the tetra tec alone. Hope this is fine?

Here's a picture of the reactor


----------



## faizal (4 Apr 2011)

The water from the cannister's outflow goes in from the right side. I think it is driven down the reactor by that wheel at the top which itself is run by the cannister filter's outflow water current. The co2 gets mixed up on its way down and then the water travels back up to the top (via that smaller cylindrical chamber that you see within the reactor) and goes out to the spary bars through the larger of the 2 outlets that you see on the TOP LEFT side of the reactor.

My Atomizer is only due for arrival by the end of April,...so I had to do something than just let the tank go y'know? Only one way to find out.


----------



## foxfish (4 Apr 2011)

That is an interesting looking reactor, do you have a link for more info?


----------



## faizal (4 Apr 2011)

Hi foxfish. I don't have it unfortunately. It was the only reactor that I could find at the shop ,....in fact any aquarium shop here. Most of them sell diffusers only. Anyways I have the cover box lying at home and if you don't mind I could upload a picture of the box later?


----------



## faizal (4 Apr 2011)

I remember there was something written on the box that  mentioned  in order to prevent co2 wasted buid up within the reactor,...one has to manually release the built up co2 gas. I am not sure how this could be done as there are only 2 inlets ( one for co2 and one for the cannister filter outlet) and 1 outlet to the spray bar.

I remeber reading Tom Barr's thread on Double Venturi Co2 Reactor. But he had infact 2 options for releasing the excess trapped co2 within the reactor. 

Should I just open the co2 tubing from its inlet every once in awhile to release the excess accumulated co2 or is there another way?


----------



## mdhardy01 (4 Apr 2011)

Hi faizal 
Glad you got the reactor sorted
Don't forget when you set up the tetra tec to use the media from the other filter you could also just have both running as we always say you can never have enough flow but I know that you may not want to much equipment in the tank
Post up a pic once it's all sorted
Matt


----------



## mdhardy01 (4 Apr 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> I remember the something written on the box that said that in order to prevent co2 wasted buid up within the reactor,...one has to manually release the built up co2 gas. I am not sure how this could be done as there are only 2 inlets ( one for co2 and one for the cannister filter outlet) and 1 outlet to the spray bar.
> 
> I remeber reading Tom Barr's thread on Double Venturi Co2 Reactor. But he had infact 2 options for releasing the excess trapped co2 within the reactor.
> 
> Should I just open the co2 tubing from its inlet every once in awhile to release the excess accumulated co2 or is there another way?



You may get some co2 build up at the top but don't worry about that once the gas turns off it will get dissolved 
You could just turn the gas off a little earlier so that the gas in the reactor then gets used
When you first fit it there will be air trapped at the top to get rid of that turn the reactor upside down whilst it's still running the air will then get sucked out the central tube at the bottom this is what you have to do if you want to expel the gas build up to but as I say you don't need to
Matt


----------



## faizal (4 Apr 2011)

Hey matt!!! Got it,...okay. I will use 1/2 of the old media in the Tetra tec and keep the other 1/2 in the China made filter. Hope that's okay? And yes. I will post the pics once they are all set up. A long night again !!!  

Thanks Matt.

Faizal


----------



## faizal (4 Apr 2011)

mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> You may get some co2 build up at the top but don't worry about that once the gas turns off it will get dissolved
> You could just turn the gas off a little earlier so that the gas in the reactor then gets used
> When you first fit it there will be air trapped at the top to get rid of that turn the reactor upside down whilst it's still running the air will then get sucked out the central tube at the bottom this is what you have to do if you want to expel the gas build up to but as I say you don't need to
> Matt



Matt,...you have just taught an old dog a new trick. Thank you, my friend


----------



## mdhardy01 (4 Apr 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> That is an interesting looking reactor, do you have a link for more info?


Hi foxfish
This looks very similar to the tmc reactor 
http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/planted-tank/a ... fusers.asp
Matt


----------



## foxfish (4 Apr 2011)

Yes you are right they do, looks like some sort of impeller situated at the top that I guess is designed to break up the C02 bubbles?


----------



## m_attt (4 Apr 2011)

how much do theese affect flow?


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## mdhardy01 (4 Apr 2011)

I used to run a similar one by sera and yes it did drop the flow a bit but not massively . The tmc ones have two impellers though I think one at the top and one at the bottoms not sure if this would affect flow more
And I think they only take 12mm pipe
Matt


----------



## m_attt (4 Apr 2011)

ah would be too small anyway then, thanks for the reply.


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## faizal (6 Apr 2011)

Hi foxfish. Sorry for the delay in reply but my laptop malfunctioned ,...I think it has virus. So I am actually posting this from the workplace. Can't upload any photos yet but I have that link that you requested for. It's the website of the store.

http://www.hueyhung.com.tw

Check it out under "Co2 Systems".

Faizal

I will post a pic once my alptop is up & running. Sorry for the delay again.


----------



## foxfish (6 Apr 2011)

Thanks for the link, they look really good especially connected externally.
I cant find the price or details of P&P on that site but I will have more time to search later today


----------



## faizal (19 Apr 2011)

I am really sorry for such a long silence. I had been having some problems with my computer.  

Here's how the tank looks as of today:









I had replaced the melted Limnophila vietnam species with Rotala rotundifolia. My Blyxa have completely disappeared!! But there are some new shoots now. The tank is almost 1 month old. It's amazing how fast the Blyxas lost their leaves. But the new leaves are appearing healthy. I am not too sure if you could make out the new Blyxa shoots there in between the large rock on the left and the smaller central rock. What a transformation ,...huh?  

I guess it's all part of the learning experience.

 No major algae issues. The Brown Diatom algae have mostly disappeared from most of the Staurogyne's leaves.

Replaced the Eheim pump & the poor dribbling spray bar 2 weeks ago with the Tetra Tec. The water coming out of the spray bars are sooo much better now. It's the peak of summer season here. Temperature in my tank is about 33'C most of the time.   

Some of the rotalas had dissintegrated initially ,....I think it was because I accidentally closed the needle valve on 2 occasions when I was fiddling with the co2 system.  

I had also connected the co2 reactor to the filter outflow of my Tetratec. The bps is at 3 bps but I turn on the gas just 2 hours prior to lights on.



 

I have placed 2 drop checkers : One at the upper right side of the front glass while the other one is on the lower left side of the rear aquarium glass. They both turn Lime Green when they lights come on. I think the inline reactor is doing a reasonably nice job. I would only be able to tell  , I suppose, in about a week's time. I had really made a bad mistake of accidentally turning off the needle valve. 

I am pretty sure the flow is much better than before I hooked up the tetra tec,....

Doing 2-3 large (50%) water change per week. Still dosing EI. On water change days ,....I change the water first,...then dose my fertilizers. I can't believe how fast the filter intake & outflow tubes get stained brown!!! It only takes them a week before they go brown on me again. I clean the filter tubes with brush & tap water but i clean the filter media itself with the drained tank water. The white fine sponge in the media basket seems to turn brown everyweek too. I just squeeze it in the bucket containing old tank water and re insert it back into the media bucket. I hope I am doing all the right thing here.

Clive,...I remember reading one of your posts today in the filtration forum where you had actually posted a picture to demonstrate the flow coming out of your spray bars. I was shocked to see such an amazing force of water actually hitting against the front glass of your tank which looked amazing by the way  .

I have 2 spray bars in my tank. The water from the spray bar doesn't nearly touch my front glass,....probably just half way. Do you think it would be a good idea if I hooked up both filter returns onto the same spray bar from either ends  and hence have just ONE spray bar running along the entire length of the tank. Wouldn't this increase the strength of the water flow coming out from 2 filters via a single spray bar?

I am truly sorry again for the late reply. 

Faizal


----------



## ceg4048 (20 Apr 2011)

Hi Faizal,
             Hope you got your computer problems sorted. The browning shows you how much organic waste is produced by the plants as a direct results of their feeding on large amounts of carbon and nutrients. This is why we do the water changes, to rid the tank of these waste products.

It's a very tricky business trying to attach multiple tanks to the same bar because each pump tends to back-pressure the other. It's best to have one bar per pump and to have high energy from that pump. High flow, properly implemented, solves a lot of problems and covers up a lot of mistakes. People fail to recognize this and always seem to focus on other things like high lighting. When you see what a difference excellent flow makes you'll never look at a tank in the same way.

Pretty soon you'll need to start pruning those back plants which will help to make them bushier.   

Cheers,


----------



## Johno2090 (20 Apr 2011)

Faiziel if your after faster spray bars, just shorten them! I run two filters with 2 spraybars, both run half the length along the tank and end in the middle so that there is a small gap between the two. Increases the flow a lot throughout the tank yet the turnover remains the same.

You can see what i mean here:


----------



## faizal (20 Apr 2011)

Johno2090 said:
			
		

> Faiziel if your after faster spray bars, just shorten them! I run two filters with 2 spraybars, both run half the length along the tank and end in the middle so that there is a small gap between the two. Increases the flow a lot throughout the tank yet the turnover remains the same.



Thank you John  . Should I opt for that wouldn't I need to have another co2 reactor hooked up to the other cannister filter as well? My reactor is currently hooked up to my Tetra Tec's filter outflow. The other thing is,...both my filters aren't identical,....I'd bet that the tetra tec has a much higher output velocity than that China made filter. Wouldn't this create an uneven vortex like current within the tank itself? PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG HERE. THIS IS ALL BASED ON PURE ASSUMPTION BY AN UNEXPERIENCED MIND. If you feel that these concerns are negligible then I will give it a shot. 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> It's best to have one bar per pump and to have high energy from that pump. High flow, properly implemented, solves a lot of problems and covers up a lot of mistakes. People fail to recognize this and always seem to focus on other things like high lighting. When you see what a difference excellent flow makes you'll never look at a tank in the same way.



Hey Clive !!   Yeah,...I think I had virus in the computer. I didn't have time to take it to the shop because work had been hectic too the last 2 weeks. It's a good thing that you warned me against it. I was really planning on hooking it up tomorrow morning. I am not going to do it now. 

Gosh!! Clive,... I hope I don't need to get another bigger filter immediately. Although,....I can see where it is leading to  ,....once the plants are all grown in.
I guess that PAR meter & Chiller will have to wait for now,...huh? Because if my current filter set up is not providing enough circulation,....I guess its time to start saving for an Eheim 2075 (Professional) rated at 330 Gallons/Hr. Or is it a bit of an overkill for a tank like mine (17 gallons)?

Another thing I would like to share here (which I'm sure many are already familiar with) is that Flourite is a very clean substrate BUT it does pose a bit of an issue when planting. The substrate doesnt exactly hold the stems nicely as sand / soil would. I think if I had mixed it earlier with Flourite Black Sand (i.e. 2 parts Flourite Black sand : 1 part Plain Flourite) ,...it would have helped me to overcome these challanges. Yes. A bit too late for that now. :silent:

Clive do you think I should go in for that Eheim or anything else similar to 330 Gallons/hr rating? Or could I make do with my current set up until all the plants are all grown in,...and then opt for a change? I'll post a pic of the water coming out of my spray bars when I do the water change tomorrow morning,..okay? 

It's nice to be back here.  

Take care guys.

Faizal


----------



## faizal (20 Apr 2011)

By the way!!! That's a really neat looking tank & aquascaping there John !!!!


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## faizal (20 Apr 2011)

Clive,...just to make sure that I am DOSING adequately,....could you please confirm if MY EI regime is fine?

MY TANK VOLUME IS 17 US GALLONS

Sat : 50% Water Change(WC) + 1/4 teasp Equilibrium + 8.5ml Seachem Excel

Sun: 5ml Seachem Flourish+ 1.8ml Excel+ Tetra Tec's filter and hose cleaning

Mon: 50% WC followed by 1/4 teasp KNO3 + 1/16 teasp KH2PO4+ 8.5ml Excel

Tues: 5ml Flourish + 1.8ml Excel + Filter & hose cleaning of the China made cannister

Wed: 1/4 KNO3 + 1/16 KH2PO4 + 1.8ml Excel

Thu: 50% WC followed by 5ml Flourish + 8.5ml Excel

Fri: 1/4 teasp KNO3 + 1/16 teasp KH2PO4

Just noticed one of the NEW shoots of Hygrophila Difformis were yellow in colour. I was not sure if this was due to the co2 fluctuation that the tank experienced this last week OR if I was dosing less than adequate amounts of NO3 or Iron ??
But I have Flourite for substrate. 

Here's how it looks :


----------



## faizal (21 Apr 2011)

Here's a picture of the force of water coming out from my spray bars :






Would this be considered as adequate? 

There has been no further yellowing of the new leaves on Hygrophila Difformis. Not sure what caused it in the first place .

I would really appreciate any thoughts on this please.


----------



## ceg4048 (21 Apr 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> ..Gosh!! Clive,... I hope I don't need to get another bigger filter immediately. Although,....I can see where it is leading to  ,....once the plants are all grown in.
> I guess that PAR meter & Chiller will have to wait for now,...huh? Because if my current filter set up is not providing enough circulation,....I guess its time to start saving for an Eheim 2075 (Professional) rated at 330 Gallons/Hr. Or is it a bit of an overkill for a tank like mine (17 gallons)?


Well mate, I don't even know how to spell overkill, although you should only need a 170-200GPH rated filter (in accordance with the 10X rule.) I guess adding flow of multiple pumps doesn't always equate to a single pump of the given flow rate. Based on that picture i would rather see the jet streams reach the front glass.


			
				faizal said:
			
		

> There has been no further yellowing of the new leaves on Hygrophila Difformis. Not sure what caused it in the first place .


You may want to look at your trace dosing. Yellowing in new leaves is typically associated with a trace deficiency, which could be Fe, Mg, or even Mn. If you see this again then try doubling the traces. Your NPK looks OK to me.

Cheers,


----------



## faizal (21 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Well mate, I don't even know how to spell overkill, although you should only need a 170-200GPH rated filter (in accordance with the 10X rule.) I guess adding flow of multiple pumps doesn't always equate to a single pump of the given flow rate. Based on that picture i would rather see the jet streams reach the front glass.



Hi Clive!!  Nice to see you online!!! I am running on a budget with regards to my tank for now,....I will definetely get that new filter but for now (i.e. another 2-3 weeks) would it be okay if I try to shorten both the spray bars as John had suggested earlier?(because when I tried that ,....the jet stream actually did reach the front glass.)


----------



## faizal (21 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> You may want to look at your trace dosing. Yellowing in new leaves is typically associated with a trace deficiency, which could be Fe, Mg, or even Mn. If you see this again then try doubling the traces. Your NPK looks OK to me.
> Cheers,



Okay Clive. Will do that from my next Trace dosing day.

Currently I am adding for TRACES :

Seachem Flourish 5ml 3 times a week  

1/4 teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium ONCE a week

Should I then increase it to 10ml - 3 TIMES A WEEK  for SEACHEM FLOURISH  &  1/2 teaspoon of SEACHEM EQUILIBRIUM ONCE A WEEK?? Would this be about right?

I am not to happy to sound like a broken record talking about my tank's high temperature again & again,...but do you think that all this could in some way be related to the one who should not be mentioned again,......(Temperature  ). Well,...Higher temp = Higher metabolic rates= Higher demand & stress for co2 & nutrients)

Because my current dosing regime is actually based on EI for a high light tank. Just curious y'know? I am trying to understand all this & arrive at a big picture.

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY THAT THIS IS AN AMAZING FORUM. I HAVE NEVER,....I REPEAT,...NEVER COME ACROSS A FORUM WHERE EVERYONE HELPS A NEWBIE LIKE YOU ALL DO. AND I AM NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ME HERE.

AND CLIVE,.....YOU ARE  MY "YODA".  I truly understand here that this doesn't make me a Jedi,....maybe his assistant but not a Jedi.   That's probably gonna take awhile.

Ok then. Bye for now.


----------



## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2011)

faizal said:
			
		

> ...I truly understand here that this doesn't make me a Jedi,....maybe his assistant but not a Jedi.  That's probably gonna take awhile.


Hi mate, you'll have to defeat Darth Vader and destroy The Death Star before you can even be considered as Jedi material...In any case, remember that The Force will always be with you. 8) 


			
				faizal said:
			
		

> Currently I am adding for TRACES :
> Seachem Flourish 5ml 3 times a week
> 1/4 teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium ONCE a week
> Should I then increase it to 10ml - 3 TIMES A WEEK for SEACHEM FLOURISH & 1/2 teaspoon of SEACHEM EQUILIBRIUM ONCE A WEEK?? Would this be about right?


Yes, that's a good adjustment if the condition persists. But didn't you say that the condition no longer exists? If you're not having the yellowing any more then there is no point in making a dosing adjustment.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> would it be okay if I try to shorten both the spray bars as John had suggested earlier?(because when I tried that ,....the jet stream actually did reach the front glass.)


Sure, it's certainly worth a try, but remember that there is always a tradeoff. The Law of Energy Conservation means that by increasing the energy along a shorter distance you will necessarily reduce the energy to nearly zero in the space that you vacated. It's more likely therefore that you will have poorer flow in that volume of water which does not have a spraybar section. So success will depend on what plants are in that "vacated zone" and what spillover flow manages to get squeezed into that  zone from the neighbouring higher energy zone.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> I am not to happy to sound like a broken record talking about my tank's high temperature again & again,...but do you think that all this could in some way be related to the one who should not be mentioned again,......(Temperature  ). Well,...Higher temp = Higher metabolic rates= Higher demand & stress for co2 & nutrients


Yeah, that all sounds reasonable but there is no reason to blame all the problems on stress induced by high temps. These adjustment you are making are the same adjustments that everyone has to make regardless of their working temps. The fact of the matter is that one has to optimize the submerged environment in terms of nutrient/CO2. When this is accomplished then the plants are able to make the adjustments and adapt to whatever stress is being imposed upon them, whether that be higher than normal temperature, lower than normal temperature, higher than normal lighting, whatever..

Here is a standard photo I like to use to illustrate a typical adaptation to high stress. This is a Bacopa growing in a waterway of The Everglades. The stresses are high light, poor CO2 and poor flow. The only adjustment being made here is that the plant lengthens the stem to grow out of the water. You can see that the submerged leaves don't stand a chance. The only way to survive is to grow upwards, so that's what the plant does. If one were to inject massive quantities of CO2 and flow in the vicinity of the submerged leaves, then there would be less incentive for the plant to decay or to grow upwards. It would stay low and branch outwards.





So the idea is to optimize the conditions under which the leaves can uptake to enable them to deal with the stress. Here's Christmas Moss a low temp, low light plant growing under extremely high light and 33/34 degree water temperature. It's no good obsessing over temps because plants can become stressed over a a lot of things, poor flow being one of them. Wherever you live and whatever conditions you have, the solution to the riddle of growth performance is always the same; Excellent flow/distribution, excellent CO2 and excellent nutrients. If you want to obsess over something then these are the things to be neurotic about.When these issues are resolved then it almost doesn't matter what the other conditions are:





Cheers,


----------



## faizal (23 Apr 2011)

Thank you.   I think I am going to be saying this to you forever,....... 

That was the big picture that I was looking for,.... 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Sure, it's certainly worth a try, but remember that there is always a tradeoff. The Law of Energy Conservation means that by increasing the energy along a shorter distance you will necessarily reduce the energy to nearly zero in the space that you vacated. It's more likely therefore that you will have poorer flow in that volume of water which does not have a spraybar section. So success will depend on what plants are in that "vacated zone" and what spillover flow manages to get squeezed into that zone from the neighbouring higher energy zone.



Thanks for those words of caution Clive,....In that case,..what I plan to do tomorrow is to make the 2 spray bars meet halfway with no gap in between them. Since the china made filter has a lower GPH rating,...I am planning to run its spray bar's course just about 1/3rd way across the total length of the rear wall of the tank. This will be met with the Tetra tec's spray bar (which would be covering the remaining 2/3rds of the total length of the rear wall)  from the opposite end. The ends of the two spray bars should be touching each other with no gaps in between them. I hope by doing this,....I would be able to avoid the"Vacated Zone" that you had warned me about. I will post a picture of the set up once it's done tomorrow.


----------



## faizal (23 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> faizal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. I don't see any further yellowing. I was just being paranoid y'know? First tank & all ,.....


----------



## faizal (24 Apr 2011)

After the readjustments of the spray bars. There are now 2 co2 reactors hooked inline with both cannister filters.





Yeah,...  I had messed up on my measurement there. There's actually a very small gap there in between the spray bars but since the water jet is criss crossing there in the middle,....I thought I could get away with it. HOPE THIS IS BETTER??





I have noticed that some of the Staurogyne are starting to go yellow on me with some brown filamentous algae. I have removed some of them. Some of the older leaves of the H.difformis now have small holes in them.

I am doing 50% Water change 3 times a week. I am going to add some purigen into the tetratec this week. 

I am convinced that these are all CO2 related issues. Just kicking myself for not acting upon it earlier. Day 1 of Hopefully-Much-Improved Flow & Distribution. My UP Inline Atomizer isn't still here yet. Awaiting its delivery. I am dealing directly with the importing agent,.....he had never heard about the product prior to my request.

I am also begining to think that  maybe the real reason behind that yellowing of the new shoots of the H.difformis could have probably been attributed to poor flow and distribution of the nutrients (despite EI Levels of dosing).


----------



## ceg4048 (24 Apr 2011)

Hi Faizal,
               Yes that's looking much better. The real proof of the pudding is whether you can see motion of all the plant leaves even at the deepest level. Are you re-dosing after each water change? Remember as discussed previously that you may need to double or treble the Flourish dosing. In the absence of the atomizer your only alternatives are to either increase the injection rate or to add liquid carbon if it's available in your location.

Cheers,


----------



## faizal (24 Apr 2011)

Good Lord!! I think I pressed "submit" a couple of times & ended up with multiple copies of the same post. I don't know how to cancel it.


----------



## faizal (25 Apr 2011)

I think I am going to TRIPLE my entire dosing. 

Reason being :

1. A few new shoots of H. Polysperma are coming out glassy. I have removed them now,....just the new shoots. A funny thing is one of the new shoots which is at the same level of the spray bar outlet is absolutely healthy looking. The glassy ones are those that are at the mid height level of the tank,....lower down from the spray bar level. Is it related to poor flow = poor nutrient carrying capacity??

2. Some ( 2 to be exact) of the staurogyne's new leaves are also yellowish and glassy looking.

3. Diatoms seem to have a high affinity towards my Staurogynes. The funny thing is,....the single staurogyne plant which I had planted under the shade of H. difformis is actually squeaky clean :?  How is this so?

I had removed as much of the diatoms from the leaves as I possibly could by rubbing the leaves with my fingers gently.

Clive ,...do you think that the PRIMARY CAUSE for all this could have originated from the inital  poor flow in the tank,...I mean it's only Day 2 of Better Flow now. 

I have never tested my Tap Water for phosphates,....but do you think I should,....(Phosphates in tap probably binding my dosed IroN)

I DON'T WANT TO TAKE A CHANCE AND WAIT ANOTHER WEEK TO SEE IF THE CURRENT FLOW CHANGES THINGS ,...Y'KNOW?  SUPPOSE I INCREASE MY DOSING  AS FOLLOWING :

KHNO3 =  1/2 TEASPOON  - 3 TIMES A WEEK
KH2PO4 = 1/4 TEASPOON -  3 TIMES A WEEK
FLOURISH = 15 ml - 3 TIMES A WEEK
SEACHEM EQUILIBRIUM : 1 TEASPOON !! - ONCE A WEEK 
SEACHEM EXCEL = AS PRESCRIBED ON THE BOTTLE ( DAILY DOSING)

**** Water change 3 times a week @ 50% 
**** On "water change" days dosing is done only AFTER the water change,...as always.

Would you consider this a reasonable alteration to my dosing regime?


----------



## faizal (25 Apr 2011)

Diatoms covered Staurogynes




 


Squeaky Clean staurogyne plant that's situated on under the shade of H.difformis


----------



## faizal (25 Apr 2011)

Glassy looking H.polysperma new shoots


----------



## faizal (25 Apr 2011)

Healthy New Shoots of H. Polysperma which are at the same region of the tank but only difference is that they are closer to the outlet of the spray bar in comparison to the problematic ones.


----------



## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2011)

Hi Faizal,
              Structural faults such as translucency are only ever due to poor CO2. These are not related to nutrient so trebling your dosing won't do anything to address this.

You cannot have instantaneous reversal of fortunes with plants. it may take a few weeks, depending on species to recover from a deficiency. I really wouldn't worry too much about the diatomic algae. It should go away after a few weeks. Concentrate more on improving your CO2 injection rate.

The photo of the Staurogyne looks more like GSA than diatoms to me. GSA is both PO4 and CO2 related.



			
				faizal said:
			
		

> I have never tested my Tap Water for phosphates,....but do you think I should,....(Phosphates in tap probably binding my dosed IroN)


I suggest that you forget about this line of reasoning. You are already adding huge quantities of PO4 rendering the tap water values more or less irrelevant. Turning to test kits never solves your problems, firstly because they can't tell you the truth with enough regularity to be useful. Increase your CO2 injection rate and maintain your current dosing scheme.

Cheers,


----------



## faizal (26 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi Faizal,
> Structural faults such as translucency are only ever due to poor CO2. These are not related to nutrient so trebling your dosing won't do anything to address this.You cannot have instantaneous reversal of fortunes with plants. it may take a few weeks, depending on species to recover from a deficiency.



 Sorry Clive,....I guess I got carried away there. But didn't you say that the yellowing of new shoots could be due to Mg, Mn or Iron deficiency? I noticed some yellowing and translucency on one of the new shoots of the Staurogyne's leaves. I am very sorry to be such a bother but I am confused. Could this yellowing be due to CO2 then?

At James' website, he mentions that pale growths of new leaves, yellowing of new leaves and new leaves that become brittle are problems associated with Iron deficiency. Hence I thought I was looking at an iron deficient tank. Okay,... so,...that means pale leaves are not the same as transluscent leaves. This is trickier than I thought.  



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Concentrate more on improving your CO2 injection rate.
> Increase your CO2 injection rate and maintain your current dosing scheme.



Yes,..okay. So,.. I am injecting 3 bps now. Both DCs are as green as this guy  -->   when the lights come on.
But I will increase it further to 4-5 bps .

 And i will continue to dose DOUBLE (my current dosing scheme) of EI levels. I will be patient and i will wait it out for a couple of weeks. My UP Atomizer should be here by next week.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> The photo of the Staurogyne looks more like GSA than diatoms to me. GSA is both PO4 and CO2 related.



Yeah ! I know !!   It does look like GSA there,...but Clive ,...when I wiped them out between my fingers,...they came off easily,....like dust y'know? I am taking these pictures with my handphone  . That's the reason behind their poor quality. But like I said,..they come off easily,...so it has to be Diatoms,...right? B'cos GSA doesn't come off easily



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> faizal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DONE ALREADY  :!:  It's out of that window .  



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Increase your CO2 injection rate and maintain your current dosing scheme.
> Cheers,



I will do exactly that.Thank you ,Clive.


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## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2011)

Hi mate,
              OK, if it's just diatoms then just ignore it for now. As the plants recover, get stronger and grow more quickly they will be able to resist the diatomic attack. Remember that along with injection rate increase you can also add more Excel (which equals CO2). This should help speed recovery.

Cheers,


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## faizal (26 Apr 2011)

Hey Clive,....I am utterly amazed at how you don't seem to tire answering all my silly questions & doubts. Thank you so much  . You have no idea how much I owe you !!! Today when the lights came on the DCs were at a very light green colour==>   (i.e. the colour of his spectacles).



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi mate,
> OK, if it's just diatoms then just ignore it for now. As the plants recover, get stronger and grow more quickly they will be able to resist the diatomic attack. Remember that along with injection rate increase you can also add more Excel (which equals CO2). This should help speed recovery.
> 
> Cheers,



Okay,...I am currently dosing Excel as per Seachem's recommendation. The tank does actually look much cleaner now. 

Thanks again.


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## faizal (5 May 2011)

Sorry for the long silence,...I was away for about 5 days and when I came back i was shocked to see that most of the rotalas that were previously doing well suddenly started melting over the lower half of the stems just like the limnophilas had a couple of weeks ago  . My DC was dark blue despite the fact that it was well over 3 hours into injection period at 4 bps!!!! Too disappointed to post a pic.

The CO2 output was nil. The main tap of the co2 cylinder was closed!!!   

I know this sounds like "paranormal activity part 3 " but guys I swear!!! Most of the foreground staurogynes had turned yellow. My mum ( the sweet soul ) who proudly took the charge of daily ferts & Excel dosing swears she never touched that dial.   

Anyways,....blessings in disguise? Everything happens for a reason. But how can anyone explain this????  

Scrapped the tank washed my substrate ,...dried them out,...starting all over again. But this time I am gonna be better prepared. Better planning . Got my UP Atomizer yesterday.  

 
Faizal


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2011)

Hi mate,
             Sorry to hear of your troubles. A shame really. About the only positive I can think of is that you have now seen with your eyes the correlation between poor CO2 and the damage it causes. You recall the earlier incident with the Blyxa and Limnophilia at a time when it was lees clear why the plants had this decay. Now there should be no doubt in your mind of the typical failure mode of CO2.

Unfortunately, as Barr has mentioned, CO2 is like a powerful narcotic. The plants get hooked on it and so do the hobbyists. Suddenly your whole life revolves around "can I get my CO2 fix today?"

The only hobbyists who are truly free are those using non-CO2 methods. But we junkies just don't care. We're only happy when we're high.

Anyway, this second go around should be easier because you're smarter now.

Cheers,


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## faizal (7 May 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi mate,
> Sorry to hear of your troubles. A shame really. About the only positive I can think of is that you have now seen with your eyes the correlation between poor CO2 and the damage it causes.,.........
> Anyway, this second go around should be easier because you're smarter now.



Thanks Clive .  I wouldn't have come this far if it hadn't been for all the help that I had received,....especially from you.

I have learnt so much with respect to keeping a planted tank here. In a way I am feeling it's all a good thing. 

Thanks for those kind words Clive.

You guys are truly awesome.



Faizal


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## faizal (8 May 2011)

Should this type melt (lower half stem melt) occur in a non co2 tank,...would it be safe to presume that it occured due to high lighting levels in that particular tank.


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## ceg4048 (9 May 2011)

Melt can happen in any type of tank if the plant is subjected to a negative change in CO2. In Non-CO2, after the plants are submerged melt can occur and the plant can regrow as long as the lighting is not excessive.

Cheers,


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## faizal (9 May 2011)

I just started a second tank,...just for fun. It is a  low tech non co2 tank (5.5 US Gallon) ,....I have just transferred some of the H. Polysperma, H. Difformis, 2 of the last remaining stems of Rotala Rotundifolias & the anubias petite nana into this tank.

The substrate is Flourite. The light is a hang on type.  It is raised about 6 INCHES  above the water surface. It's a 11 Watt tube but the manufacturer says it has the effective wattage of a 60 Watt tube. I think it's a Compact Fluorescent. Here's a pic of it :






Clive, considering the set up,...you would say the lighting level is too high for this tank?

I'm sorry ,....this is unrelated to this thread but I would love to know what you think.


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## ceg4048 (9 May 2011)

Hi Faizal,
             Don't get too wrapped up in the wattage rating of the energy saver bulbs. This is clever marketing and what it really means is that the human visual cortex perceives the brightness of the light produced by that bulb to be as bright as another bulb of higher wattages which produces it's light in a part of the spectrum the the visual cortex is lees sensitive to.

Since we are more sensitive to green and yellow wavelengths, these bulbs have a high green and yellow content making them appear brighter to us. It therefore takes less energy to make the light seem brighter. A normal incandescent bulb will generate more light in the red region and some in the yellow.  The red wavelengths are not as visible to us so that it requires more wattage with that set of wavelengths. 

In addition, fluorescent bulbs convert a much higher percentage of their energy input into light (30%-40%) than an incandescent bulb (10%-20%) which produces mostly infrared, i.e. heat.

So without a PAR meter there is really no way of knowing exactly how much photosynthetic energy is actually striking the leaves. Our wpg guidelines are really only valid for T5 bulbs, and only within a very narrow band of tank sizes, since distance from plays a significant role in energy dissipation.

In the absence of any PAR data, the only option is to try the bulb and see how you get on.

Cheers,


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## faizal (10 May 2011)

Thank you Clive. I was afraid it was going to be something like that.  

The Little Green Corner. That's what I'd like to call it. Jason (greenjar) suggested that cute name  . I kind of like it too.

Thanks Clive.

My new plants for the 17 US Gallon Tank are due for arrival this afternoon. I got the UP-Atomizer now  Baby!!!! Yeah!!!     This time around it's gonna different. 

Hey Clive,...should I continue with this same thread or should I start with a new one because I have actually taken up quite a few pages here on this thread & my tank isn't all that great either to carry so many pages worth of journal in it anyways

It would be a better idea to start off with a new thread don't you think? The plant list is different. The hardscapes are different.

"Newbie --> A second go at it !!" What do you think?  

Faizal


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## ceg4048 (10 May 2011)

I'd just keep the same thread going for better continuity mate. You can always change the thread name. I think Paulo (London Dragon) has the world record for a journal thread length... 70+ pages (and not even one picture of the gilrfriend...very disappointing!)

Cheers,


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## faizal (10 May 2011)




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## faizal (12 May 2011)

I don't understand. I have hooked up the UP atomizer as per manufacturer's direction. It's doesn't seem to be working. The pressure gauge on my dial reads  2kg/cm2 and  35 psi as delivery pressure. What's going on? Dc is still blue despite an injection rate of 3 bps and it's been 1.5 hours since injection was started. help needed please.


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## Garuf (12 May 2011)

Sounds like you have a leak somewhere, try checking all the seals with washing up liquid.


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## faizal (12 May 2011)

Thanks Garuf. I forgot to mention this one though,....My co2 system connection is as follows:

CO2 tank--> co2 tubing ---> bubble counter  ---> split valve ---->  splitting into 2 co2 tubes ---> into 2 UP atomizers connected to the outflow of each of my 2 cannisters.  

Could the split valve be reducing the pressure required for the proper functioning of the atomizers. I am really sorry I didn't mention this before. Currently I have offed the atomizers and dosed with Excel for the day. I'm still at work & won't be back home till tomorrow. I will check for leaks when I get home.

Faizal


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## gmartins (12 May 2011)

It should definetely reduce the pressure by half. Try connecting just one while closing the other one a see if it works.

GM


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## faizal (13 May 2011)

Thanks GM


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