# Aquamedic 1000 and poor co2



## andy-mu (29 Jul 2011)

Hi Guys,

I recently installed an aquamedic 1000 reactor in my 100l tank. Its 24L X 15W X 18D. I had replaced an internal filter
with an eheim classic 2217 giving 1000L/H flow rate. According to aquamedic's website a guide is to start with 15
bubbles/min. Noticing my drop checker is still blue I upped the bubble rate. I see the bubbles come in from the bottom and circulate aroung the top. Not pushed out and unable to float right up due to flow rate. I removed the bio balls as has been recommended on here. Even though plenty bubbles gather at the top to diffuse, my drop checker is still blue. It is positioned at the tank front right in the flow which you can see is good. 

Any ideas why the bubbles continue to float and dont seem to be diffused as it should do. Naturally many people report good results with this unit, but certainly my CO2 levels are not happening. Upping CO2 seems to have made no difference to diffused CO2 levels in the tank.

Any Ideas?


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## CeeJay (29 Jul 2011)

Hi Andy.

Your bubbles are getting diffused, it's just difficult to judge because you are constantly topping the reactor up with new bubbles. You will find that the diameter of each bubble will reduce, the longer it is in the reactor. I'm not running  a bubble counter on mine as such. I use the bubbles coming out of the bottom of the pipe inside the reactor as my guide. Just be aware, these bubbles are huge, so you have to be careful when ramping it up, as it is very easy to overdo it.
My solenoid goes off 2 hours before lights out, and by the time the lights do go out, there are no bubbles left in the reactor, so they must have diffused 100%   .
Whichever way you decide to count your bubbles, it does sound like you need to increase your injection rate.


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## ceg4048 (30 Jul 2011)

Have you taken pH readings of the tank water throughout the photoperiod? That will tell you if the gas is being dissolved. Have you checked the bromo blue by putting some of the reagent plus water plus vinegar in a test vial to see if it responds properly to acidic conditions?

Cheers,


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## andy-mu (30 Jul 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys. 

Since just recently getting my tank going properly I'm more than likely erring on the side of caution. I have witnessed the bubbles disappearing after lights out so that at least inspires me as chris said, that it is being diffused. The rates are just so much higher than the initial suggestions on the aquamedic website. Dont get me wrong, I'm learning a lot of things that are not in keeping with conventional methods. Doing dry ferts, Will be swapping to T5 lights soon. All in the hope of having a tank that would be a thing of beauty.

A little off topic there, I have just set my co2 today to come on an hour before and go off an hour before lights. Will monitor the drop checker at switch on. I hadn't checked PH per say since most readings I've made on the website advise on monitoring the drop checker. Perhaps this is full hardy and I should test it. I will do that today also. As for the bromo blue, If I put it in water and vinegar does this force it to change colour in a known way?

I tend to have a hunch as Chris says that the co2 is needing to go up a bit. It just shows you, I remember getting one of those ladder things ages ago JBL 500ml bottle and as the ladder advised got one drop going every 4 seconds and thought I was doing the right thing. This sites taught me a lot about the errors of my ways. I can see me also following convention here with the FE route as gas consumption looks to be higher than my initial expectation. Don't see that 500ml bottle lasting too long. A bit cost prohibitive to keep buying those bad boys.

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (30 Jul 2011)

andy-mu said:
			
		

> ... Will monitor the drop checker at switch on. I hadn't checked PH per say since most readings I've made on the website advise on monitoring the drop checker. Perhaps this is full hardy and I should test it. I will do that today also. As for the bromo blue, If I put it in water and vinegar does this force it to change colour in a known way?


It's not a matter of being foolhardy. As I mentioned in the dropchecker tutorial, the reagent used in the checker is a Bromothymol Blue, which is just a pH test reagent. We are observing a symptom of the reagent not responding and we have many unknowns. So in order to isolate the fault, we need to be systematic and immediately eliminate certain possibilities, otherwise, it complicates our efforts in fault isolation.

If the dropchecker is not responding to injection, then we first assume all known possibilities and then proceed to eliminate some of the possibilities until we arrive at a conclusion. 

Here are the known possibilities:
1. Insufficient water flow rate through the reactor.
2. Insufficient gas injection rate.
3. Vapor lock or leak in the gas plumbing.
4. Faulty indicator solution.
5. The gas being injected is not CO2.

Item 4 is among the least likely, but is also the easiest possibility to eliminate and the easiest cause to fix. Yet, if it is the culprit, it will result in no end to grief. So this makes it the prime candidate for quick elimination. Since we know that the checker is nothing more than a pH test kit, and since we know that it should be Bromo Blue, then we know that under alkaline conditions the solution should be blue, under neutral conditions it should be dark green and that under acidic conditions it should be yellow. That means if you have a test vial and add any acid to the vial, the solution must turn yellow. If it does not then you know that the Bromo Blue is faulty because if it does not turn yellow when you directly add acid, it will never turn green or yellow from the Carbonic acid in the dropchecker. Vinegar is the easiest acid to find in your cupboard, but any acid substance will do.

Likewise, CO2 injection results in Carbonic acid saturating the tank water. Therefore, successful gas injection must result in a fall in tank water pH during the time that the gas is running. When the gas is turned off, the pH must then rise. The magnitude of this pH fluctuation will depend on many things in the tank, primarily the level of carbonates in the tank water, but there must absolutely be a fall and a rise. If this does not occur then any combination of items 1, 2, 3 and 5 then become more likely.

Performing both the vinegar test and the pH fluctuation test gives you a clearer idea and will eliminate at least one of the above possibilities.

Cheers,


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## andy-mu (30 Jul 2011)

Hi Clive,

Thanks for that information.

I did a PH test as soon as lights came on. It came in at 7. The bromo blue I'm using is this one from aqua essentials

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/ae-desi ... -5339.html.

I put some in a vial and added vinegar it did change to yellow. Although looking at your post and how the bromo reacts this I would have expected to be more alkaline, since if it was 7 it should be dark green. I am going to query
my order with aqua essentials since although my order clearly states bromo blue, there is a label on the bottle stating it to be  aqua iron. I don't know if this is just a bottle they had since it is not the black bottle you see in the link, but the substance is most certainly blue. Royal blue to be exact, so quite dark.

I have slightly increased the bubbles in the reactor and I would imagine flow to be pretty good. These are
pushed half way down the reactor and rise again until they reduce. Fish in the tank and shrimp all very much alive.

I'll test the PH again at a point after co2 has ceased to be injected to check for variation and keep you posted. 
My PH test kit I've had for years as it wasn't really something I monitored since I used to only keep easy plants that pretty much survived in anything. Do you think the age of the PH kit could have a bearing on it's accuracy?

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (30 Jul 2011)

Andy,
         According to the MSDS The shelf life of Bromo Blue is about 2 years, so it's performance is uncertain after this amount of time. However, it passes the acid test, so although it may not be perfect, the inability to change color while in the dropchecker can be assumed to not be the fault of the reagent.

The only Aqua-Iron brand name I know of is an Iron bound protein supplement (Iron Salts bonded to Glycine) used to cure Iron deficiency in infant farm animals, kind of like Geritol.

It also cannot be automatically assumed that you have sufficient flow through the reactor.

Again, I not suggesting a change in policy whereby we monitor pH on a regular basis. The tank inmates don't really care about pH, so this would be pointless. The objective of the exercise is to see how effective the CO2 injection is, because adding CO2 changes the pH. If your test show that the pH does NOT change then you will confirm that there is a serious fault with your injection technique.

Since we now know that the reagent responds correctly to acidic conditions we place it in the dropchecker and then try to determine if the tank is becoming acidified by the CO2 addition.
If by the end of the photoperiod the dropchecker is still blue and if there is no decrease in the tank pH, then this vindicates the Bromo blue and points to one of the other factors.

Also don't forget that the KH of the tank water must be considered. If KH is very high this would excuse the tank water pH from dropping significantly, but it would not excuse the dropchecker water from turning colors because you are using 4dKH water in the dropchecker (I assume).

Cheers,


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## andy-mu (30 Jul 2011)

Clive,

I tried the PH test again literally 5 minutes before the co2 goes off which is one hour before lights out.
From being 7 this morning it is now 6.5 so there is some degree of injection. 

Since I am still waiting on my t5 lamps I have held backon any difficult plants. Although I noticed very slight pearling on some valis yesterday, since upping the co2 it is pearling more so as is the java fern in the tank. 

I'll keep an eye on the PH for a while. In your view is there a range of variation that would be normal in a well
balanced tank. Naturally mine seems to swing from 6.5 to 7 just now. should this be a greater change . 

I plan to check the PH a couple of hours after lights out so any co2 will be well dissolved. Then check at various points throughout the day. It's water change day tomorrow so new bromo blue. Since pearling seems to have increased with my increase in co2, I will probably up it again tomorrow to see if this gets better. This increase has been in very small incriments. No major change just a slight increase.

I noticed earlier in your last post you mentioned the age of the bromo blue being 2 years. This is actually brand new, its the PH test kit I've got which is a couple of years old.


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## SuperWen (31 Jul 2011)

Anyone in ukaps ever tried ISTA MaxMix reactor? IME this tool is the best way to diffuse CO2


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## ceg4048 (31 Jul 2011)

andy-mu said:
			
		

> ...I noticed earlier in your last post you mentioned the age of the bromo blue being 2 years. This is actually brand new, its the PH test kit I've got which is a couple of years old...


Well, any pH test kit which has instructions that the colors are blue, green and yellow almost automatically mean that the reagent used in that kit is also Bromo Blue. I'm unsure whether you're clear on that point. There are other reagents which are identified by their particular gamut of colors as the pH changes. That's why I mentioned that when testing the pH of the tank water to see whether the tank pH is changing, that you should probably use the (presumably) freshest reagent, which would be the Bromo Blue you just got, not the one that has been sitting around for years.

There are literally dozens of different types of pH reagents. The reagents themselves are actually weak acids or bases which simply get neutralized or more acid/base depending on the test sample. It's simply that their colors change as they become more or less acid. The difference is that the color ranges that each reagent goes through are limited. So the range of colors is almost like a fingerprint identifying that reagent. Some reagents go through their entire range of colors over a very small pH range. So for example, Methyl Yellow goes from red to yellow over a pH range of 3.0 to 4.0 - so it's only useful in a very narrow acidic band. A reagent like Phenolphthalein covers the wide alkaline range from about 8.0 to 10.0 but is transparent at the low end and pink at the top end. It turns red under acidic conditions.



			
				andy-mu said:
			
		

> I tried the PH test again literally 5 minutes before the co2 goes off which is one hour before lights out. From being 7 this morning it is now 6.5 so there is some degree of injection.


So that means about a 3 fold increase in acidity from pre-injection to the end of the photoperiod. That means the dropchecker should be slightly aquamarine in the morning to a slightly medium green at lights out. If that's not happening then you've got to at least question whether your 4 dKH water is good. Are you quite certain that you are using 4 dkH water in the dropchecker?



			
				andy-mu said:
			
		

> ...I noticed very slight pearling on some valis yesterday, since upping the co2 it is pearling more so as is the java fern in the tank.


[/quote]That definitely indicates you need a higher injection rate. If your injection rate is good and if your distribution methods are good the pH drop from 7 to 6.5 should "ideally" occur within about an hour. Likewise, what you're now witnessing by the end of the day should be observed within about an hour. The gas should be turned on an hour or two prior to lights on and can be turned off an hour or two prior to lights off. With T5 lights you might easily need about a 10 fold acidic change from about pH 7 to nearly pH 6.

In any case, there is some funny business going on inside the dropchecker, whether that be reagent or water sample and there also seems to be an issue either with your distribution or your injection rate. The art of CO2 injection is to saturate the tank with sufficient CO2 quickly but at the same time to avoid exterminating the fish. That is best achieved by having excellent distribution.

Please also review the tapered hose tails of the AM1000. If the internal diameter of the Eheim hose is 16mm then the internal diameter of the input and output hose tails of the reactor should each be no less than 16mm. If they are smaller then you might want to think about cutting them with a saw at a point up the tapered shank where the internal diameter is the same as that of the tubing. This will give you better flow.

Cheers,


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## andy-mu (31 Jul 2011)

Thanks for your very helpful replies. Your information has helped alot. Certainly I have witnessed the change to aquamarine. I had upped the co2 more and am witnessing a change to a light lime green now. I'll percevere with
the co2 to get the levels correct. Pearling is increasing all the time.

To be honest I think I have been deluded with the volume of co2 required for a planted aquarium. If you look at 
information provided by suppliers they do seem very modest with their recommended injection rates. I am looking to implement an FE setup as it is obvious co2 consumption is going to be relatively high. I've currently only got one of those JBL 500 bottles. 2Kg FE in the pipeline though.

Once again many thanks Clive. Your replies have been very informative.

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (1 Aug 2011)

OK, sounds like you've got it in hand. In hindsight, it might have been more efficient to have simply suggested an injection increase. You've probably learned more about pH testing than you ever wanted to know, right?   In any case this won't be the last time you have a CO2 issue, and being systematic, these same procedures can be employed.

The amount of required injection rate can never be predicted and it's perhaps better that the marketing department err on the low side because of the toxic implications. This is one of the few times I give them a flier. I put a curse on dropchecker marketing departments though. They should know better yet they continue to instruct people to use tank water in the checkers. This is unforgivable. When I become emperor, heads will roll and arses will be kicked.  

Cheers,


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## Bobtastic (1 Aug 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> When I become emperor, heads will roll and arses will be kicked.
> 
> Cheers,


Bat'leth to the neck!!!

Don't forget that if you increase your light levels (which I read earlier on that you intend to do) you will also need to increase you Co2 level and also your concentration of your added ferts.


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## andy-mu (1 Aug 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> You've probably learned more about pH testing than you ever wanted to know, right?   In any case this won't be the last time you have a CO2 issue, and being systematic, these same procedures can be employed.



Clive this information has been very helpful. I haven't learned more than I ever wanted. I enjoyed carrying out your systematic approach to start to get the situation in hand. It is getting greener but still to be fine tuned.



			
				Bobtastic said:
			
		

> Don't forget that if you increase your light levels (which I read earlier on that you intend to do) you will also need to increase you Co2 level and also your concentration of your added ferts.



Bob, The method of fertilisation I intend to use is the EI method Clive  detailed on the forum. This information was extremely helpful and since the ferts were worked out for a 20 Gallon tank which I have, I had imagined these would be fine using the T5 as they were listed in this article. Do you think I would need to deviate from this.

Here's the link to the article for convienence

http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm


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## Bobtastic (1 Aug 2011)

The EI guide as I understand it is just that a guide. As you've found with u're Co2 you have to be willing to alter it as is needed. As Clive himself advises light drives plant growth, so the more light you have the faster the plants will grow and the more Co2 and ferts they will need to meet their demands.

So if you trade up you existing lights from T8 I assume, to T5 you'll have to increase you Co2 and look out for other fertiliser related deficiencies to see if they arise. 

Clive will correct me if I give poor advise.


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## andy-mu (1 Aug 2011)

Thanks for that Bob.

My plan initially is to get my current plant setup looking good. Get the flow, distribution and Co2 set correctly. If I use the EI system as a guide and all is looking rosy in the garden, then upgrade my lights and C02 correspondingly to meet with the demands of plants increased growth, what would be typical symptoms of lack of fertilisation to look out for?
Are there any obvious signs for example?

Cheers


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## Bobtastic (1 Aug 2011)

I think there are, but I must admit I'm not sure what they are. Melting leaves and legginess is related to Co2 difficiencies? Yellowing of the leaves is another sign, but cant remember is it's potasium or nitrogeon... Clive will be able to tell you tho.


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## Tom (1 Aug 2011)

Yellow leaves is N I think. Pinholes is aparrently K, and new yellow leaves could be iron. Have a look at theplantedtank.co.uk


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## andy-mu (1 Aug 2011)

Thanks for that link Tom.

Very informative


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## ceg4048 (2 Aug 2011)

andy-mu said:
			
		

> My plan initially is to get my current plant setup looking good. Get the flow, distribution and Co2 set correctly. If I use the EI system as a guide and all is looking rosy in the garden, then upgrade my lights and C02 correspondingly to meet with the demands of plants increased growth, what would be typical symptoms of lack of fertilisation to look out for?
> Are there any obvious signs for example?


Hi Andy,
    You have a good plan. Plants do not need T5 or other exotic lighting to be healthy and strong. The lighting hysteria is all strictly about human emotions in exactly the same manner as the way in which we want a bigger television or a faster car. 

You can, and may encounter all the same problems with T8 as you can with T5, so the idea is to stick with the T8 for now and learn all about your tank. When you get a better grip on  how to fix things that go wrong then it's a good time to increase the lighting levels. All too often, people rush to throw massive lighting levels at a tank without thinking about the consequences. The slower growth, lower maintenance and slower pace of the T8 will allow you more time to breathe, to enjoy your tank and to learn how individual species grow. That helps to to think more clearly about aquascaping without the added tension of perpetual problem solving.

EI allows you to not worry too much about malnutrition, but it does not solve problems such as poor injection, poor flow, or poor distribution so it's much more important to understand how to fix those problems. It takes no effort at all to add more powder, so I really wouldn't worry too much about that for now. I advise therefore to set your T5 aside and to wait a bit while you learn how to observe the tiniest details within and how to listen to your tank.

Cheers,


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## andy-mu (31 Aug 2011)

Hi Clive,
Your advice has been very helpful. I have been listining to the tank. There are problems I know about.
On the T8's they don't go wildly out of control. I have equipment purchases to address some of the 
shortcomings I never initially knew I had. 

Information on here has made me aware of what these shortcomings are. I'm sure it may not come as 
a surprise to you as I've seen many posts that you have commented to this effect, but my issues are mainly 
due to flow, injection and distribution. Nutrition is good but hindered by these 3 bad boys.

I'll get there though


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