# dosing a low tech tank on a 'Thames Water' supply with an allinone solution



## a1Matt

This thread is to share my allinone ferts strategy with others who are running a low tech tank with a Thames Water supply or similar (ph around 8, hard water, but low in magnesium).

I go more by the plants than the water report, but if your inclined to see how much e coli and clostridium you've drunk in recent years results are here: https://www.thameswater.co.uk/Help-and-Advice/Water-Quality/Check-the-water-quality-in-your-area

I use @JamesC DIY TPN(3) recipe as a baseline, full details can be found here:
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

I then tweak it as follows:
Add double the amount of magnesium sulphate (34g in total).
Add double the amount of monopotassium phosphate (4.4g in total).
Add DTPA chelated iron at a 1:1 ratio with the trace (5g trace and 5g iron).

I bought 7% DTPA chelated iron off ebay, there are different percentages available, just get whatever is available/cheapest, we're not dosing precisely enough for it to matter.

Start with the Tropica recommended levels of dosing (as per James' website), then adjust up or down if needed.
IME dosing levels vary between 1/4 strength (dosing the weekly rate, but only once a month), to dosing double weekly.

Contrary to popular belief you can dose micros and macros at the same time, as long as the residual level of phosphate in the tank doesn't hit a certain threshold it will be fine.
If you do hit that threshold it means you are putting in more than you need anyway, so if that happens, just skip a week or so of dosing and/or do a large water change, then dose at a lower level when you resume.
(Remember, this strategy is aimed at low tech tanks where missing a week will not impact otherwise well fed plants.)

Watch the tank as you add the ferts, if you are adding too much you will see lots of white flecks when the ferts hit the water (the flecks are iron and phosphate precipitating out of solution and becoming unavailable to the plants). Don't confuse bubbles with flecks!

That covers dosing too much. You can tell if you are not dosing enough by observing whether the plants look deficient or have stopped growing.

There are lots of different dosing methods (I for one love going down the rabbit hole of trying different levels of this and that, the above recipe is a work in progress), and they all have their pros and cons, but as a one size fits all method for low tech, I can strongly recommend JamesC recipe. With or without my tweaks, it is fine to grow plants with.

A lot of us owe a debt to James for his work with fert mixes (I think there are even a few selling ferts commercially that used his research as a foundation for their product). If you see this James, thank you!


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## PM

Thanks Matt, I'll be sure to study this properly when I'm closer to setup.  Awaiting delivery of all the hardware first!


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## Angus

Some good information to chew on matt, i've been looking at my iron and magnesium dosing, considering making a liquid mix with a sequested iron powder 'plant tonic' as i'm using london tap aswell and want to do it on a budget, nice post mate it is definitely reaffirming my thoughts.


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## a1Matt

Thanks for the feedback Angus. If you do go ahead, post in the thread what recipe you come up with.

If your looking to experiment, then making up any solutions heavily diluted makes it easier to adjust dosing if needed. It also means you can finish the bottle quickly and try another combination. I like to make one months worth at a time as it gives enough time to monitor the results.


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## jameson_uk

Just a few questions 

Where did you source some ammonium nitrate?  For obvious reasons people seem to be a little funny about selling it but I couldn't find any with a quick scan of Google.

What is your GH/KH?

How do you measure these amounts?  Do you have very accurate scales or is there some sort of tsp conversion?

How do you what is low magnesium levels?  My water company report doesn't mention mg but I do seem to remember Darrel saying that most UK water had low levels?  (Or I could be making that up...)

I thought DTPA was only stable to ~ph 7.2?  I presume it is working fine for you and you aren't seeing any iron deficiencies?  I did find some EDDHA chelated iron https://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-fe-70-eddha-regular) which  is meant to be stable to about pH 9 but this is only available in kg boxes and not sure this would be ok to use? (@dw1305 would this be ok?)


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## a1Matt

jameson_uk said:


> Just a few questions


I'll do the best I can to answer 



jameson_uk said:


> Where did you source some ammonium nitrate?



I used the recipe without ammonium nitrate - DIY TPN number 3.



jameson_uk said:


> What is your GH/KH


I dont test regularly. When I last did, out of the tap was around 16gh and 10kh.



jameson_uk said:


> How do you measure these amounts? Do you have very accurate scales or is there some sort of tsp conversion?


I use digital scales with 0.1g resolution. It's good enough for me. (If I was mixing my own micros then I would want 0.01g.) The Rotala butterfly calculators have teaspoon conversions.



jameson_uk said:


> How do you what is low magnesium levels? My water company report doesn't mention mg but I do seem to remember Darrel saying that most UK water had low levels? (Or I could be making that up...)


Experientally. I tried every combination of more/less of mg/ca. Came to the conclusion that my tap is high in Ca and low in Mg.
In this context, my definition of high or low is in relation to plant growth, not relative to a ppm value of the tap water.  I.e. High means enough in the tap I never need to dose. Low means always need to dose. (Having said that, I did try no water changes once and after a few months saw a benefit from calcium dosing.)  No scientific rigour here 
I value the science, but I'm not kidding myself that I am capable of meaningful controlled studies at home. So I will learn from others who are better placed (Darrel, Clive, Tom Barr, JamesC, etc).

I also recall Darrel (and others) mentioning low mg water 



jameson_uk said:


> I thought DTPA was only stable to ~ph 7.2? I presume it is working fine for you and you aren't seeing any iron deficiencies?



I put off using it for years for that same reason. It works better than EDTA for sure. Maybe not perfect, but well enough to avoid iron deficiencies.



jameson_uk said:


> I did find some EDDHA chelated iron


My reading up on EDDHA showed that not many were using it and of those that tried most said it stained the water pink. I couldn't find any issues with it's safety.

So I've not tried it, but I may at some point.

If I do, I'd dose a small amount (in conjunction with the DTPA) to see if I can avoid staining. Say starting at 0.1ppm a week.

I'm sure you could get it in a smaller quantity than 1kg, probably from someone enterprising on ebay.

Ive heard the theory that different chelators keep the iron (or whatever else they are chelating) available for different lengths of time and that plants have to put more work in to get to the iron if it's in a stronger chelator. If that's true, having a mix of iron sources would be beneficial.

You can also buy trace mix where all the ingredients are chelated with DTPA instead of EDTA.

JamesC doesn't post online anymore (that I know of), but the last post I saw from him was to inform people that a DTPA mix had become available to buy in the UK.

So many things to try 

I hope my reply helped somewhat.


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## X3NiTH

The iron species I've used so far and from what I have read in papers discussing how the different chelators react under different pH conditions are -

Fe Gluconate - can last as little as two hours after dosing, least stable above pH6, similar to EDTA

Fe EDTA - stable to pH6, degrades above pH6, half life is at pH7, total degradation above ph7.6

Fe DTPA - stable to near pH7, degradation above pH7, half life is at pH7.5, total degradation at pH8.5.

I daily dose Fe @ 0.15ppm (Tank water RO/DI remineralised to KH9 GH8) using 0.1ppm Fe Gluconate and 0.05 Fe DTPA. Currently my daily dosing bottle is a mix of Flourish Comprehensive and Fe DPTA to get the above ratio then mixed together with Flourish Trace, I also add extra MnSO4 so that my daily dose works out at a Fe:Mn ratio of around 3:1.

In 24hr Fe titration testing  (JBL test kit) the difference in readings I see are that the Fe Gluconate is gone within 24hrs while the assumed remaining Fe is Fe DTPA that reads about half its dose (0.025ppm, the JBL test barely reads the level).

My pH profile for CO₂ is pH7.6 - pH6.1, 8.5hr photoperiod then air pump on at lights off to vigorously off gas CO₂, tank is climbing above pH7 for at least 10hrs until it reaches around pH7.6 then the CO₂ comes back on for the next phase.


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## jameson_uk

Now not sure where to post but I was reading https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ei-mix-with-tap-water.16388/ which says make the solution with whatever water you want but then we talk about iron coming out of solution within a time frame depending on pH.   Would using DTPA be partly negated by putting it in tap water (mine ends up about pH 7.8 after everything has gassed off) so mixing up a 500ml batch would end up with no iron very quickly???


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## a1Matt

The idea is that the ascorbic acid brings the ph down, keeping everything stable in solution.

I err on the side of caution and make it with RO. The longest I've had a batch last until it went cloudy was 18 months.

Just make sure you add the acid to lower the ph, before you add the trace and phosphates.

I add the acid first, then trace, then everything else, then phosphate last.

Apparently you can use other acids. Eg vinegar, lemon juice, etc. I've never tried though.


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## X3NiTH

Yup, if the the pH climbs outside the pH range for the chelate it will let go of the Fe (other trace minerals are good up to about pH9 if the chelate is EDTA), which is why it is recommended to acidify the solution, Clive mentioned Hydrochloric or Sulphuric Acid, Tom mentioned Acetic Acid which is more readily available off the shelf (distilled vinegar), I've used Ascorbic Acid to the same effect. If using hard tap the recommendation is to boil it which destroys the KH thus making the pH of the water naturally lower, adding an acid helps lower it further. I use RO/DI for fert mixing but I still add an acid if I'm making an all-in-one solution just to be on the pH safe side.


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## a1Matt

X3NiTH said:


> The iron species I've used so far and from what I have read in papers discussing how the different chelators react under different pH conditions are -
> 
> Fe Gluconate - can last as little as two hours after dosing, least stable above pH6, similar to EDTA
> 
> Fe EDTA - stable to pH6, degrades above pH6, half life is at pH7, total degradation above ph7.6
> 
> Fe DTPA - stable to near pH7, degradation above pH7, half life is at pH7.5, total degradation at pH8.5.
> 
> I daily dose Fe @ 0.15ppm (Tank water RO/DI remineralised to KH9 GH8) using 0.1ppm Fe Gluconate and 0.05 Fe DTPA. Currently my daily dosing bottle is a mix of Flourish Comprehensive and Fe DPTA to get the above ratio then mixed together with Flourish Trace, I also add extra MnSO4 so that my daily dose works out at a Fe:Mn ratio of around 3:1.
> 
> In 24hr Fe titration testing  (JBL test kit) the difference in readings I see are that the Fe Gluconate is gone within 24hrs while the assumed remaining Fe is Fe DTPA that reads about half its dose (0.025ppm, the JBL test barely reads the level).
> 
> My pH profile for CO₂ is pH7.6 - pH6.1, 8.5hr photoperiod then air pump on at lights off to vigorously off gas CO₂, tank is climbing above pH7 for at least 10hrs until it reaches around pH7.6 then the CO₂ comes back on for the next phase.



Thanks for sharing that 

It would be interesting to see how uptake* in your tank compares to low tech tanks. (*edit - I probably shouldn't say uptake as we don't know what has happened to the iron. I guess I should say availability.)

You've got me considering buying a test kit for the first time in a long time 

Either way I think it adds weight to dosing daily rather than weekly to ensure a sready supply of iron (and, to a lesser degree,  maybe the other trace elements too?). As it happens I do dose daily, but more out of convenience (if I don't feed the plants at the same time as the fish I'm liable to forget to do it at all).


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## X3NiTH

Yeah I'd love to know the Fe uptake in the tank, can only get an idea by looking at the plants response to dosing these levels daily and since its 90% Bucephalandra in there makes it quite a challenge, I know it's working because the majority are producing new leaves normally in relation to the size of the plant and not teeny ones on a fat rhizome that just melt away. Since Buce leaves are very pale when new and colour up after they have unfurled it's hard to see iron deficiency until it's too late, from what I have seen if they starve of iron new leaves stop growing or fail to unfurl and the plant seneces them at the stem level.

The only thing I can be sure of is how much iron I'm adding by calculating the ppm for the dose I'm giving and that knowing that there is iron detected on titration testing post dosing. Not really interested in the accuracy of the test kit to my dose and what level is detected which is completely subjective according to how good I am or not at detecting shades of a colour and ascribing it a value from a printed comparative card. Strongly Positive colour change post dosing Very Weak Positive colour change pre dosing 24hrs later, control sample (fert front loaded remineralised RO/DI, no Fe or traces added) no colour change. That's all I learn from the test.

I have used EDTA chelated trace with Fe before to great effect in the pH range it is most effective in (sub pH 6) and have also seen it fail due to high pH (buffering water to higher KH from near zero KH). I have also done mixes with EDTA Trace with Fe and Fe DTPA together for use with high KH water, knowing the EDTA would drop the iron in higher pH tank water but still using it for the other traces which are stable until even higher pH, the DTPA provided the Fe (have mixed as both separate solutions and all-in-one mixes). 

I've swapped to using Fe Gluconate provided by Flourish Comprehensive and Fe DTPA (11% powder, it is what I have to hand) because I don't really want to use EDTA at higher pH and have free EDTA binding up other nutrients when the iron has been freed from it or accumulating unbound in the tank.

I am not bashing EDTA here as I have said I have had great success with this (stem plants mainly) in pH it's more suitable for, my focus is I'm doing this for Buce, the rheophyte that can't fight, trying to understand in high light and near EI level dosing (always available nutrients) what they like and what they don't like, so far I know more about what they don't like than like, hence an expedition into understanding water chemistry and ppm of stuff that can be added in many various ways in an effort to have maximum availability for the plants in what they need and in the way that makes them respond positively.

So many different ways to do this that its like trying to skin Schrödinger's Cat.


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## a1Matt

I've only grown buces low tech (I gave up the gas before buces reached the hobby).  I've found them quite forgiving at the low light levels I keep (albeit slow growing). I can imagine if you up the light they could get touchy quickly.

With regards to the unbound chelate building up (and bringing it back round to low tech allinone dosing strategies again), I do find that if I'm putting in a lot of ferts the tank does require more frequent water changes (judged by water odour and turbidity). 

I don't profess to know why, I assume it's predominantly because the ferts feed more than just the plants (eg bacteria and archae) and more metabolism equals more waste equals more water changes. Lately, I've been wondering if unbound chelate adds to this.  I wouldn't be surprised if after some time bacterial species develop that feed on it (that's their MO after all, mutations and colonies based on the environment).

I wonder if anyone has run tests that give an answer.

In practical terms it's all covered by good 'ol fashioned water changes anyway


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## X3NiTH

Here's a study of EDTA.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...mental-scrutiny.pdf?origin=publication_detail

With regards to bacteria eating EDTA there is this quote in the paper.


> EDTA resistance to bacterial biodegradation is widely documented41-44. The compound is harmful to gram negative bacteria, causing the destruction of their outer membrane26-28.
> 
> At laboratory scale, biodegradation by enriched bacterial cultures has been achieved. Nörtemann5, suggested catabolic pathways of EDTA in bacteria, this approach considers uncomplexed EDTA entrance to the cell, and shows the loss of an acetyl group as the first step in this intracellular oxidation. However, it has been recently demonstrated that the bacterial strain DSM 9103 (located in the Rhizobium-Agrobacterium branch), degrades EDTA as a sole carbon source and it is able to perform the cellular uptake of the metallic complex EDTA-Ca (II), with intracellular calcium polyphosphates accumulation45. The identified bacterial strains with EDTA degrading abilities are all aerobic, gram negative bacteria46.



I think that strain of bacteria would be a challenge to source -


> The only degradation achieved was with a strain of Agrobacterium sp. previously isolated from a nuclear waste disposal facility and of known EDTA degrading activity, and not with other related Agrobacterium strains.


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## X3NiTH

Buce hibernate on me in low tech, or at least that's what it feels like, in a tank with moderate CO₂ under PAR50 (calculated not measured) at the moment I'd be lucky if I get one leaf every month.


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## Konsa

Hi 
I have been growing few Buce varieties in low tech for about 2 years .In 2 of my tanks the light is on the strong side(one is 11w Arcadia strech on H22cm,second 55w pll lamp 4800lumen on H40cm) while the  third is just right with 2 T8 18w(H40cm).Regular column dosing in all tanks.I found that  the buces do best when attached to small lava rocks and roots get in substrate.Even with plain sand there is some mulm collection arround the  base stone and they really benefit of it  plus less stress if plant is moved.Once established with good root system they are very robust plant  and grow few leaves a week from the multiple tips  in high light and about a leaf in low light( still young plants tho) without CO2 enrichment and the leaves are well lived too in my conditions.
Regards Konsa


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## jameson_uk

OK made the first batch tonight (with standard DTPA iron) and just a couple more questions...

Do you just add all the components to water in one go or do you add them in any particular order?
Do you do anything special to store the ingredients or are the bags they come in sufficient?
Does the resultant liquid need storing a dark dry place or does it not matter?


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## Konsa

Hi
Defo store in dark place.My first all in one went funny (cloudy behind the tank with black background and minimum light in about a month and a half.Now second one in cupboard still good just in time the green colour (iron convertion from the acid)turns back to brown whatever that means )
Regards Konsa


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## a1Matt

jameson_uk said:


> Do you just add all the components to water in one go or do you add them in any particular order?


In order. The exact order isn't important, but you don't want iron and phosphate mixed together until after the ph has been lowered.

So I add the ascorbic acid first, then trace, then iron.

Give it a stir/shake.

It looks dissolved at this point.

To be sure I add all the other ingredients except the phosphate, then another stir/shake (this gives more time for the acid, iron and trace to fully dissolve. I'm not fussed if the other ingredients are not dissolved fully).

Then add the phosphate last.

The warmer the water the quicker it all dissolves. So I often heat the water to lukewarm or so. (On the cooker, in a large pyrex jug, as that has a 500ml measure.)



jameson_uk said:


> Do you do anything special to store the ingredients or are the bags they come in sufficient?


Mine are decanted to plastic containers, then in a cardboard box, in the cupboard under the tank. This is for tidyness and ease of handling.

I don't know if the bags are sufficient.

At a guess, I think they are fine as long as they have an airtight seal. It is possible some of the ferts are photo sensitive though (I'm thinking of the chelators). Maybe someone who knows can weigh in.



jameson_uk said:


> Does the resultant liquid need storing a dark dry place or does it not matter?


Thanks @Konsa for answering this.

As well as keeping it in the dark, I also like to make it diluted (1 to 3 months worth), there is less worry about it going off then.

Having said that, I've had batches with no sign of mould after 18 months. Who knows what has degraded/precipitated in that time though.


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## mooncake

Thanks for this. I’m dealing with London water too, and will give it a read through as it’s a bit mind-boggling trying to suss what the best approach is.


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## Andrew Butler

I'm just wondering if I could use the aquarium plant food EI recipe/instructions but put it all in one container then add in ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?
Then dose that every day in a high tech aquarium.
I don't understand the science behind the different chemicals so hopefully someone who does can check it over for me.


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## a1Matt

Yes, that will work fine.

Just be sure to add the ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate and let it dissolve before you mix together the micros and macros.


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## Andrew Butler

a1Matt said:


> Yes, that will work fine.
> 
> Just be sure to add the ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate and let it dissolve before you mix together the micros and macros.


Thanks Matt.


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## Cheltster

I've got probably half the ferts required for this. I live in a Thames Water area as well so I might get the rest and give it a try. 

What results have people had using this?


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## Mihai Varban

Oh look at all the Thames Water people here! We should seriously grab a pint and discuss this. I have so many questions that might not benefit the community. But still:
1. Dosed potassium and all my amanos stopped eating. Why?
2. Can't get rid of GSA?
3. Nitrates out of the tap are around 50. What to do?
4. Can someone help interpret the water analysis to tell if it already contains certain elements we might be dosing?
5. How do we calculate to see what elements come from substrate systems, from root tabs, from regular tap water and from ferts to decide what is a waste of time to dose?
6. In a war between hairgrass and s repens who wins?
7. Where do I source some dry ferts?
8. Last but not least: How the hell does liquid co2 actually work?
Hell I got more questions! Pub?


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## ian_m

Mihai Varban said:


> 2. Can't get rid of GSA?


http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm



Mihai Varban said:


> 3. Nitrates out of the tap are around 50. What to do?


According to drinking water inspectorate Thames water is average 20ppm nitrate, a low of 7ppm and maximum recorded of 41ppm depending on your area. The EU maximum is 50ppm. Nitrates are good anyway for plants, though you should always ignore your water report and dose sufficient nitrate fertiliser anyway, as the water companies report is for their test point on a particular day and not your tap water today. 



Mihai Varban said:


> 4. Can someone help interpret the water analysis to tell if it already contains certain elements we might be dosing?


Ignore your water report, that is for the companies test point on a particular day, not your tap water today. There generally, in UK, is nothing harmful in tap water to fish or plants OTHER than chlorine or chloramine so you must use a good dechlorinator eg Prime. No need to read or understand a water analysis.



Mihai Varban said:


> 5. How do we calculate to see what elements come from substrate systems, from root tabs, from regular tap water and from ferts to decide what is a waste of time to dose?


You don't calculate at all. You just dose EI dosing amounts (if using CO2 and high light) and that guarantees your plants will have enough nutrients, regardless of whatever else is dumped in the water from your substrate. Excess fertiliser in the amounts we are dosing is no issue to fish health. You need to be in 1000's ppm (factor of x100 greater than EI) before it becomes a problem.



Mihai Varban said:


> 7. Where do I source some dry ferts?


I find this thing called Google really handy when I want to find out where to buy things.  
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html



Mihai Varban said:


> 8. Last but not least: How the hell does liquid co2 actually work?


Liquid carbon is based around glutaraldehyde and variations of. It certainly provides a carbon source to plants and is a very effective algaecide as well. It works by being absorbed by the plants and glutaraldehyde as being similar to intermediates in the plants CO2 to sugar cycle, being used in this process. It is however far a less concentrated source of carbon than CO2 gas injection, thus is not really a full replacement for CO2 gas. At the levels required, of liquid carbon, to be equivalent to CO2 gas it will be toxic to fish and plants.


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## a1Matt

Cheltster said:


> I've got probably half the ferts required for this. I live in a Thames Water area as well so I might get the rest and give it a try.
> 
> What results have people had using this?


I've had great results


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## Mihai Varban

Ian, I love you bro!


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## Cheltster

Mihai Varban said:


> Oh look at all the Thames Water people here! We should seriously grab a pint and discuss this. I have so many questions that might not benefit the community.
> Hell I got more questions! Pub?



I'd be totally up to meet up and discuss our tanks. I've really got back into this hobby recently. I could even bring some emersed growth rotala and ludwigia.


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## Cheltster

a1Matt said:


> I've had great results



Thanks Matt, that is a great help!


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## Mihai Varban

Cheltster said:


> I'd be totally up to meet up and discuss our tanks. I've really got back into this hobby recently. I could even bring some emersed growth rotala and ludwigia.


Sweet! I'll bring a bag of frogbit and bladder snails. Message me or something.


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## Akmaliano

ian_m said:


> I find this thing called Google really handy when I want to find out where to buy things.
> http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html



Ian - I also started off with the APF dry ferts and am still using them, particulalry the macros. However as we can see from threads like this one, their chelated micros turn out to be pretty much useless for most of customers in the SE England (not sure about other parts of UK) given all these problems with the hard/alcaline water since their chelate is EDTA. It often takes months if not years for hobbyists to realise - through proactive research! - that the chelates that they've been dosing was for nothing. Same happened to me and now I'm having to dose extra Fe DTPA as well as Mg due to its lack in our water (and in APF ferts for that matter).


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## ian_m

I am in South of England (22' Clark rock/water) and not had any issues with the micros in last 6 years. You would of thought lack of iron would show with my plants by now.

Below is the "standard" chelating vs pH.




I know the mixed micro solution is acidic, I pH tested a mixed micro solution and it was around 5 pH.

As for tank water, never measured pH but most people, even with hard water, who inject CO2 will find tank pH about 7-8 dropping to 6-7 with 30ppm CO2, so still perfectly fine for EDTA.

Yes creating your own dosing (non EI) without magnesium is a very common failure seen here, especially as most of UK water does not contain Mg in water and even more especially as Magnesium Sulphate is the cheapest ingredient in EI dosing.


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## Andrew Butler

Does someone with the knowledge fancy putting some info down on how to create an all in one I can dose daily for a high tech tank with Thames water also exactly what to source and from where.
I've been using APF EI micro/macro but would like an all in one that can be dosed daily so I can just let my doses get on with things.


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## ian_m

This is the definitive page for making your own all in one ferts.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm

All ingredients are required they are not optional, many people have nutrient issues because they skimp on distilled (or RO) water or decide to leave out the ascorbic acid and/or potassium sorbate.

Some people do report seeing cloudiness when dosing large amounts of all in one into hard water (they have a large tank). This is thought to be the iron reacting with potassium phosphate and precipitating out as insoluble iron phosphate, which is then unavailable to plants. They either increase the dose or revert to dosing macros and micros on alternate days as per standard EI.

I dose micro into very hard water and have never seen any precipitate or suffer any plant iron deficiencies.


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## a1Matt

Thanks Ian. Especially for your comments on Magnesium, I bet a Magnesium shortage trips a lot of people up.

I just want to clarify a couple of points. 


ian_m said:


> Some people do report seeing cloudiness when dosing large amounts of all in one into hard water (they have a large tank). This is thought to be the iron reacting with potassium phosphate and precipitating out as insoluble iron phosphate, which is then unavailable to plants. They either increase the dose or revert to dosing macros and micros on alternate days as per standard EI.


 I have seen this cloudiness in my own tank (180litre low tech) and it was resolved by reducing phosphate levels, as detailed in the first post of the thread. 



ian_m said:


> As for tank water, never measured pH but most people, even with hard water, who inject CO2 will find tank pH about 7-8 dropping to 6-7 with 30ppm CO2, so still perfectly fine for EDTA.


 Agreed. That's why this thread is titled 'dosing a low tech tank', where in my experience iron shortages with EDTA are more likely.

Having said that, even if everything is growing well, there is no harm IMO in spending a fiver on some iron chelated with DTPA and seeing if you get an improvement regardless of low/high tech or dosing strategy. Like a nice cherry on top of the cake.



Andrew Butler said:


> Does someone with the knowledge fancy putting some info down on how to create an all in one I can dose daily for a high tech tank with Thames water also exactly what to source and from where.
> I've been using APF EI micro/macro but would like an all in one that can be dosed daily so I can just let my doses get on with things.



Allinone recipes for high tech are the same, the only change is you are likely to be dosing more.

As myself and Ian have said JamesC's site is the definitive guide. Think of this thread as just my opinion on the addition of extra Mg and FeDTPA for low tech hard water tanks. 

I just get my ferts from ebay or sponsors.  If your unsure, post up what you find and someone will comment on its suitability. JamesC site has sources too.

If you have any more specific questions post them up and I'll help if I can.


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## Andrew Butler

ian_m said:


> I dose micro into very hard water and have never seen any precipitate or suffer any plant iron deficiencies


Hi Ian,
Do you run high tech/dose higher amounts than in James' info?

I recall @a1Matt saying he was unable to source one of the products which is partly what made me put the question out.

I guess I should try and tidy things up in one and get an answer for the uneducated (me!)
which mix is the best and for what reason?

The differences I see between mix 1, 2 and 3 are:
mix 1 has more Sulphur in than 2 and 3
mix 3 has more Potassium in than 1 and 2

I'm unsure of the values of James' PMDD+PO4 formula, quite how they relate to the Tropica mix and whether this would be better for us with hard water.

Which mix is the best out of these and what is it advisable to add in our water area?
Do these mixes relate to EI calculations in any way?

If I am to use APF EI micro/macro combined with the addition of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate should I add some DTPA Iron as APF use EDTA Iron.

I'm just a little lost and wonder which is the best mix for our area; if and how it should be adjusted also.


----------



## a1Matt

Your choice as to what mix to use.

If I was in your shoes I'd stick with the APF mix. That's assuming it is working for you.
Just add the ro, vit c, pot. Sorbate, micros and macros to water. Observe mixing instructions given earlier to avoid precipitation in the bottle.

You could add DTPA and extra Mg or not. Entirely up to you.

In a high tech I would try 3 weeks emulating your current APF dosage. Then make a tweak every three weeks and document how it goes.

If you go with one of JamesC recipes then I recommend diy tpn 3. Ingredients for that are easily available.

I would avoid any JamesC recipes with ammonia unless you have specifically researched it and understand the implications to livestock (there is a wealth of info on UKAPS already about it if you want to read up).


----------



## ian_m

Andrew Butler said:


> Do you run high tech/dose higher amounts than in James' info?


I dose about 1 1/2 EI dosing levels as my tank is rather full of plants. I dose automatically (3pm) macro and micro on alternate days.

I wouldn't worry about DPTA etc, just wasting worries as far as I am concerned. Never seen any reports of lack of iron when dosing DPTA. Though if it will cure your worries, just add EDTA iron (or other chelates), shouldn't be an issue, apart from wallet thinning. The chelates are really only there to allow a solution to be made, as often the micronutrient salts are not that soluble. In the tank most chelated micronutrients will quickly break down and the micronutrient salts stay in solution and available to plants anyway. Iron is the only exception reacting with phosphate in higher pH solutions, though some people have dosed for years just straight mixing macros and micros in same container not realising they might react and their plants grow fine and can't understand what all the fuss about alternate dosing is all about.

Concentrate your worries on the biggest issues high tech people have, which is CO2 levels and distribution. Poor levels and poor flow (for your light levels and ferts) and probably responsible for 99% of plant (and algae) issues we see here.

Plant deficiencies are only really seen here by people who roll their own ferts (and normally under dose as well) and don't dose EI. Most common plant deficiency seen here is "mechanical issues" with plants due to lack of carbon source, followed by lack of magnesium, "cos I read my water report" and don't need to dose magnesium  and finally, very rarely,lack of iron, usually as generally not dosing any iron at all.


----------



## Andrew Butler

Thanks @a1Matt and @ian_m I just wanted to have half an understanding of what I'm doing so will look over things.
I'm re-scaping soon and changing spraybars for lily pipes; risky I know but really want built in skimmer so flow could then become an issue but it works for many so maybe it will for me!


----------



## Andrew Butler

So @a1Matt & @ian_m I have had a read through what you have said and tried to take it in, I don't fully understand it but I'm not scientifically minded.

If I have both micro and macro APF solutions made up how would you go about combining them?
I believe I need to keep the solution underneath a PH of 6.
I'm unsure quite how the solutions compare in strength to the advice on James' planted tank as APF give you the dosing in tsp not grams and I'm unable to find the conversions for all of the chemicals which voids the advice:
_'If you wish to change the amounts of ingredients then as long as the levels aren't changed too much you can leave the amounts of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate the same.'_

Any advice to make this easy for me would be appreciated and I will try and get things understood a bit better along the way.

After having a chat with Nigel from TNC he says I shouldn't have any problems making an all in one with the Iron being EDTA in the trace elements and I'm unable to find DPTA iron chelate with ease, TNC now only sell it in a ready made formula due to legalities I believe.


----------



## a1Matt

Andrew Butler said:


> If I have both micro and macro APF solutions made up how would you go about combining them?
> I believe I need to keep the solution underneath a PH of 6.
> I'm unsure quite how the solutions compare in strength



Post #19 of the thread gives details of how I mix it up.

If I was combining existing macro and micro solutions I would do the following:

add the acid and potassium sorbate to the existing micro solution.

Wait for it to dissolve.

Add the macro solution.

Dilute with RO to get to your desired concentration. 

Is this enough for you or do you need specific measurements of everything?
If you need more specifics please let us know how many ml you dose of each solution over a week (e.g. 10ml apf macro 3x a week and 10ml apf micro 3 x a week)


----------



## Andrew Butler

I will base all of this as if I was using a total of 500ml solution made up by 250ml of both ready mixed APF micro and macro:
Firstly I would take my 250ml Micro and add 0.5g Ascorbic Acid and 0.2g Potassium Sorbate which should be enough and let it dissolve, I could then add the 250ml of Macro and providing my PH doesn't rise above 6 then my mix should be stable.
I assume the quantities of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate would be adequate given the micro mix on theplantedtank uses the same amount; 6g.
I can check the PH along the way anyway.



a1Matt said:


> Is this enough for you or do you need specific measurements of everything?


I know I'm coming across as very stupid but I'm unable to find volume to weight conversions for all of the ingredients in APF and as it also uses different ingredients I've no idea if they have a higher PH etc.
APF also recommend using 60ml per 50L over a week (3x 10ml micro & 3x 10ml macro) yet the recipe on theplanted tank says tropica recommend 5ml per 50L once per week so now I'm also unsure of quantities to dose.

I'm beginning to think it would just be easier to buy the ingredients for the recipe on theplantedtank but even then I'm unsure what quantity would bring me inline with EI dosing. 

Am I just being stupid or are these questions founded?


----------



## a1Matt

Andrew Butler said:


> APF also recommend using 60ml per 50L over a week (3x 10ml micro & 3x 10ml macro)



How much do you add each week to your tank?


----------



## Andrew Butler

Assuming a 50 litre aquarium I add both macros and micros as below:
M 10ml Micro 
T 10ml Macro
W 10ml Micro
T 10ml Macro
F 10ml Micro
S 10ml Macro


----------



## a1Matt

We're talking at cross purposes. I am asking how much do you dose in your tank each week. (Not the recommended dosing levels.)


----------



## Andrew Butler

I dose the recommended levels so for my 100 litre I dose
M 20ml Micro 
T 20ml Macro
W 20ml Micro
T 20ml Macro
F 20ml Micro
S 20ml Macro

Am I doing something wrong by following the recommended dosing?

I can see I'm starting to frustrate you @a1Matt and I'm feeling like quite a fool but unsure why, I'm using different chemicals to what it says in theplantedtank recipe so just unsure how mine compare in concentration and how they might affect PH differently.


----------



## a1Matt

I don't think your coming across as stupid at all. I am genuinely sorry if the tone or content of my posts  give that impression. If I'm honest I had got frustrated a while back (since then I've reminded myself not to post when in a bad mood), but not at all today.

I have enough specifics from you now that I feel I can give a comprehensive reply.

First off...



Andrew Butler said:


> I will base all of this as if I was using a total of 500ml solution made up by 250ml of both ready mixed APF micro and macro:
> Firstly I would take my 250ml Micro and add 0.5g Ascorbic Acid and 0.2g Potassium Sorbate which should be enough and let it dissolve, I could then add the 250ml of Macro and providing my PH doesn't rise above 6 then my mix should be stable.
> I assume the quantities of Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate would be adequate given the micro mix on theplantedtank uses the same amount; 6g.
> I can check the PH along the way anyway.


This sounds perfect. Same as you, I assume the amounts of acid and preservative are good. (More on this further on in this post.) If your APF powders are not yet mixed I recommend using RO to mix them with (not tap).



Andrew Butler said:


> I dose the recommended levels so for my 100 litre I dose
> M 20ml Micro
> T 20ml Macro
> W 20ml Micro
> T 20ml Macro
> F 20ml Micro
> S 20ml Macro
> 
> Am I doing something wrong by following the recommended dosing?



I would keep dosing the recommended levels. 'If it ain't broke dont try to fix it.'

As you dose equal amounts of micro and macro it's easy to calculate allinone dosing amounts.

You could stick with Mon-Sat dosing of 20ml allinone each day.

But, I'd be inclined to spread it out over 7 days. At the same levels that would be 17ml a day.



Andrew Butler said:


> I'm using different chemicals to what it says in theplantedtank recipe so just unsure how mine compare in concentration and how they might affect PH differently.



I don't know how the concentrations compare between AI / JamesC / APF either.

For the purposes of making an allinone solution I don't see this as anything to worry about though.

I think it is a safe enough bet that the composition and concentrations are not going to be far enough apart to pose any significant difference to the ph

There would be no harm in adding more vitc and potassium sorbate. I often measure in a hurry and have added double of these ingredients before with no issues.

The are cheap enough that you could add double on purpose for peace of mind. I'm not a chemist though... so would be interested for input on this from someone with an education in this area.


----------



## Andrew Butler

a1Matt said:


> I don't think your coming across as stupid at all.


I think I am just trying to understand how APF, TNC and James' recipes all compare to themselves and to EI which is probably just a bit too much!
APF giving measurements in tsp instead of grams is making this harder too.



a1Matt said:


> I recommend using RO to mix them


I always use RO/DI when mixing ferts.



a1Matt said:


> But, I'd be inclined to spread it out over 7 days. At the same levels that would be 17ml a day.


That's what I had planned but didn't want to publish that after thinking I was doing something wrong! 



a1Matt said:


> I think it is a safe enough bet that the composition and concentrations are not going to be far enough apart to make a major difference.
> 
> There would be no harm in adding more vitc and potassium sorbate


I've just learnt not to assume these things so I will probably just do it bit by bit and keep an eye on the PH.

Thanks for your help @a1Matt and sorry for frustrating you!


----------



## a1Matt

Andrew Butler said:


> I think I am just trying to understand how APF, TNC and James' recipes all compare to themselves and to EI which is probably just a bit too much!
> APF giving measurements in tsp instead of grams is making this harder too.



I'm sure your not alone in wanting to compare them. 

You probably know this already, but the rotala butterfly calculators include conversions to teaspoons.

Or you could email apf and ask them what the ppms are for their recmended doses (just in case they use a different conversion).


----------



## Andrew Butler

a1Matt said:


> you could email apf and ask them what the ppms are for their recmended doses


I've tried that 3 times over the past months now and not had an answer. 



a1Matt said:


> the rotala butterfly calculators include conversions to teaspoons


I did have a look earlier and I could only find Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) and I'm still unsure if, or more how it differs from Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4)
After having another look at things I don't really understand I've found although the molar masses are vastly different with MgSO4 having roughly half that of MgSO4.7H2O, the density seems to be the same but I'm unsure if either of these are meaningful to what I want to know; how much a teaspoon of MgSO4 weighs in grams.

Is there an easy way to look at the rotala butterfly calculator where it would simply show what 1 tsp of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) weighed in grams or do I need to calculate from the below?
81.96721 litre tank = 1 tsp of KNO3
1 gram = 9/64 tsp (1/8 + 1/64) or 0.140625 as a decimal
64 ÷ 9 = 7.11111111111111
1 ÷ 0.140625 = 7.11111111111111 which would equate to the grams per tsp, I think?!? 

*BUT* I found the weight of a tsp of KNO3 elsewhere (link below) to be 10.5g which is making me question my maths.
https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight


----------



## a1Matt

My understanding is that it is best to use the calculator for mgso4.7h2o because that is the form mgso4 takes as soon as it is exposed to air.

You can get rotala butterfly to tell you what 1tsp of anything is. It's a bit of a fudge though. Ask it to tell you the results of a dry dose and fiddle with the amount of grams your dosing until the result shows 1tsp.

There could well be a better way. Fhey have a shpport forum over on barr report, so you could ask there.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Andrew Butler said:


> Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) and I'm still unsure if, or more how it differs from Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4)
> After having another look at things I don't really understand I've found although the molar masses are vastly different with MgSO4 having roughly half that of MgSO4.7H2O, the density seems to be the same but I'm unsure if either of these are meaningful to what I want to know; how much a teaspoon of MgSO4 weighs in grams.


The reason it gives the heptahydrate on the Rotala butterfly calculator is that it is always MgSO4.7H2O when you use it, whatever you bought it as. (Apologies @a1Matt, I started writing this before I read your post).

There is an explanation of why in <"Dark land...">. The heptahydrate bit is the ".7H2O", the <"water of crystallization">. The density won't change that much, it is only really the <"salts of heavier elements"> that are much denser, but the RMM (Relative Molecular Mass) is important. You have to add the weight of the water 7H2O to the RMM, workings are in the linked thread.

I wouldn't worry to much about the exact amounts, just say a teaspoon volume = 5.5 g weight.

cheers Darrel


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## oscarlloydjohn

Andrew Butler said:


> I've tried that 3 times over the past months now and not had an answer.
> 
> 
> I did have a look earlier and I could only find Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (MgSO4.7H2O) and I'm still unsure if, or more how it differs from Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4)
> After having another look at things I don't really understand I've found although the molar masses are vastly different with MgSO4 having roughly half that of MgSO4.7H2O, the density seems to be the same but I'm unsure if either of these are meaningful to what I want to know; how much a teaspoon of MgSO4 weighs in grams.
> 
> Is there an easy way to look at the rotala butterfly calculator where it would simply show what 1 tsp of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) weighed in grams or do I need to calculate from the below?
> 81.96721 litre tank = 1 tsp of KNO3
> 1 gram = 9/64 tsp (1/8 + 1/64) or 0.140625 as a decimal
> 64 ÷ 9 = 7.11111111111111
> 1 ÷ 0.140625 = 7.11111111111111 which would equate to the grams per tsp, I think?!?
> 
> *BUT* I found the weight of a tsp of KNO3 elsewhere (link below) to be 10.5g which is making me question my maths.
> https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight



APF UK's magnesium sulfate is MgSO4.7H2O, not anhydrous MgSO4. I don't think they would bother selling the anhydrous form as it is harder to make (loves to pick up water).

According to rotalabutterfly, 1 TSP of MgSO4.7H2O weighs approximately 5.1g

Hope this helps


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## Andrew Butler

a1Matt said:


> My understanding is that it is best to use the calculator for mgso4.7h2o because that is the form mgso4 takes as soon as it is exposed to air.





dw1305 said:


> it gives the heptahydrate on the Rotala butterfly calculator is that it is always MgSO4.7H2O when you use it, whatever you bought it as


Taken in, thanks for the info. 



a1Matt said:


> You can get rotala butterfly to tell you what 1tsp of anything is. It's a bit of a fudge though. Ask it to tell you the results of a dry dose and fiddle with the amount of grams your dosing until the result shows 1tsp


For some reason I went about trying to match the volume to 1g and not per teaspoon  I did go over my maths and although it is the right formulation the margin for error is caused with fractions of a teaspoon when you multiply them I'm guessing
My maths showed 1 tsp of Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) to weigh 7.11111111111111 yet when I got found the magic number (560L) with the rotala calculator told me it weighed 6.85g.



dw1305 said:


> I wouldn't worry to much about the exact amounts, just say a teaspoon volume = 5.5 g weight.


Hey Darrel,
I tend to make up 5L in one go; with Potassium nitrate weighing 6.85g per teaspoon that would throw my weight out by 54g which I think is quite a bit.
(40tsp @ 6.85g = 274g, 40tsp @ 5.5g = 220g)
Now I know the answers to what each chemical weighs per teaspoon it's easy to calculate. 

If anyone else is looking for the answers then:
KNO3 = 6.85g per tsp
KH2PO4 = 5.84g per tsp
MgSO4.7H2O = 5.17g per teaspoon


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Andrew Butler said:


> Hey Darrel,
> I tend to make up 5L in one go; with Potassium nitrate weighing 6.85g per teaspoon that would throw my weight out by 54g which I think is quite a bit.
> (40tsp @ 6.85g = 274g, 40tsp @ 5.5g = 220g)
> Now I know the answers to what each chemical weighs per teaspoon it's easy to calculate.


You can get the specific densities for the salts from wikipedia, I'd always assume that the salts are in their most hydrated state, but  I'l be honest <"I'm a pretty shoddy aquarist">, and I don't tend to weigh out any of the chemicals that I use in the fish-tank. Because I don't use EI (I use the <"Duckweed Index">) exact amounts aren't as important to me.

When I'm at work I use the scientific balances, <"volumetric flasks"> and <"pipettes">, but even then I prefer to work with larger weights and volumes, and use <"serial dilution"> when I need very dilute solutions.

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m

dw1305 said:


> Because I don't use EI (I use the <"Duckweed Index">) exact amounts aren't as important to me.


Because EI was designed to not need test kits or need accurate weights to get nutrient dosing sufficient for plants under maximum lighting, the teaspoon is the approved measuring device. Not grams.

Just plonk teaspoons of salts into RO/boiled water, maybe even maximally heaped teaspoons, if you have large plant mass and just dose the required volume of solution. Use either the dosing bottles or medicine cups to measure your dosing solution, doesn't have to be that accurate.


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## Andrew Butler

ian_m said:


> the teaspoon is the approved measuring device. Not grams.


Taken on board; I was just finding it impossible to understand the relationships between the all in one on James' all in one and what was in the APS as one is in teaspoons and the other in grams.


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## Andrew Butler

a1Matt said:


> spending a fiver on some iron chelated with DTPA


Where was this? - only able to find it already dissolved in a liquid.

Is it normal for the mix to give the water a bit of a blurry 'haze' when adding it or is this reacting?
There are no white dots appearing.


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## X3NiTH

For powdered Iron DTPA 11% you can get it from PlantedBox for €5.



Andrew Butler said:


> Is it normal for the mix to give the water a bit of a blurry 'haze' when adding it or is this reacting? There are no white dots appearing.



The haze is an optical effect in the differences of the refractive index of the water and the brine you are adding, which happens at the interface where the two meet, it's a halocline or chemicline depending on how you want to perceive the terminology, it quickly dissipates though as the brine diffuses into the water (which overall will minutely change the refractive index of the water which is why Salty tank owners can use a refractometer to determine salinity). 

If it is milky in appearance and not refracting then it is precipitation which again will quickly diffuse into the water.


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## a1Matt

Andrew Butler said:


> Where was this? - only able to find it already dissolved in a liquid.
> 
> Is it normal for the mix to give the water a bit of a blurry 'haze' when adding it or is this reacting?
> There are no white dots appearing.



Ebay. The seller was 'shrimptown'.

A haze is normal for me. I get the same when adding dry salts. It goes after a few seconds.


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## Andrew Butler

X3NiTH said:


> you can get it from PlantedBox for €5


Thanks for that, I can't find anywhere in the UK.



a1Matt said:


> Ebay. The seller was 'shrimptown'.


Thanks @a1Matt I found them but they've had no feedback in the last month or any current listings, will try to make contact and see if they are still trading.



X3NiTH said:


> The haze is an optical effect in the differences of the refractive index of the water and the brine you are adding, which happens at the interface where the two meet, it's a halocline or chemicline depending on how you want to perceive the terminology, it quickly dissipates





a1Matt said:


> A haze is normal for me. I get the same when adding dry salts. It goes after a few seconds.


Thanks for that; I've always used a doser and just switched to pouring it in while I give things a clean etc so was unsure if this was normal.
It disappears fine, just concerned it might have been things reacting and rendering them useless.


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## oscarlloydjohn

This was an interesting read, has anyone tried increasing Mg in their water change water (as if it were a GH booster) instead of dosing it like a fert? I'm doing this as I was concerned that Mg accumulation could affect my shrimp.


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## Parablennius

Mornin' all
Quick heads up for Shrimptown Lushmax ferts. Andrew's just relisted his ferts. I just ordered a fresh pack this morning.
HTH
Steve


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## a1Matt

oscarlloydjohn said:


> This was an interesting read, has anyone tried increasing Mg in their water change water (as if it were a GH booster) instead of dosing it like a fert? I'm doing this as I was concerned that Mg accumulation could affect my shrimp.



That works just as well. I did it for years. It was my preferred method when I was adhering to a regular water change schedule.

I know you didn't ask about traces or iron, but I'll add the info anyway for completeness...

On the other hand I found that once the plants hit a certain density and/or growth rate, then traces/iron benefit from daily dosing. 

My understanding is this is not due to the anount of iron in the water, but it's availability.

The science behind it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160221092934/http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ferrous-ferric
and elegantly applied to our planted environments by Darrel:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-tech-riverbank.29991/


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## Andrew Butler

Parablennius said:


> Mornin' all
> Quick heads up for Shrimptown Lushmax ferts. Andrew's just relisted his ferts. I just ordered a fresh pack this morning.
> HTH
> Steve


In the space of 5 minutes last night I had an email back from shrimptown on ebay and also someone messaged me saying they had some! 
Shrimptown had been moving house and as you say just started relisting last night.


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## Something Fishy

Looking at mixing a comprehensive all in one for my tanks too - what you guys think about using standard micro and macro together but also add some chelated iron to it? Or should that be dosed separately.  Seeing people reporting good results with chelated iron on top but wasn’t sure if it could be mixed into the all in one or if that’s overkill?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## a1Matt

Allinone 

The intention behind this thread is to encourage people with low tech tanks and hard water to try an allinone which includes  mg and DTPA chelated iron.


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## Something Fishy

Yeah that makes sense Matt, was just odd that most recipes miss out chelated iron when using trace elements and I wondered if anyone had logic for that.

When you say low tech and hard water - what about those running higher tech setups and using softer water - surely it would suit them too right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## a1Matt

It's not mentioned as most trace elements will include chelated iron already. 

The chelator used is usually EDTA, whereas I am suggesting adding iron chelated with DTPA.

For lower ph water (this includes high tech tanks) the change in chelator is not as relevant, as EDTA is more effective at lower ph.


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## ian_m

Something Fishy said:


> Looking at mixing a comprehensive all in one for my tanks too - what you guys think about using standard micro and macro together but also add some chelated iron to it? Or should that be dosed separately.


You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.


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## Andrew Butler

Something Fishy said:


> just odd that most recipes miss out chelated iron when using trace elements


unsure where you get your trace mix from but both APF and TNC chelated trace elements contain Iron (Fe) and are infact from the same wholesaler 
http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/chelated-trace.html
https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-trace-at/

It's me who has really hijacked @a1Matt thread asking about using an all in one in a high tech situation as if it was possible I didn't see the need for using 2 separate mixes.
I'm sure someone will correct a few things here as I don't fully understand it all but the whole thing about the iron is it reacting with Potassium phosphate and that's the whole reason why EI is dosed separately in a nutshell.
By lowering the PH of the solution to below PH6 the iron should not react which is where the ascorbic acid comes in, the potassium sorbate is there as a preventative against mould etc.
The iron that comes in the trace mixes above is EDTA and different types of chelated iron exist that are stronger such as DTPA which I'm told is the one to go for.


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## Andrew Butler

ian_m said:


> You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.


do you not agree that if you stabilise the mix (lower PH) then it is okay to use an all in one?
does the reaction you mention kill just the iron or both iron and phosphate?
If this is the case and you are to make or source your own traces but only use DTPA Fe would this be okay if you kept the PH of the mix down?


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## Something Fishy

ian_m said:


> You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.



Even when using ascorbic and E202?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Something Fishy

Andrew Butler said:


> unsure where you get your trace mix from but both APF and TNC chelated trace elements contain Iron (Fe) and are infact from the same wholesaler
> http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/chelated-trace.html
> https://www.thenutrientcompany.com/product/tnc-trace-at/
> 
> It's me who has really hijacked @a1Matt thread asking about using an all in one in a high tech situation as if it was possible I didn't see the need for using 2 separate mixes.
> I'm sure someone will correct a few things here as I don't fully understand it all but the whole thing about the iron is it reacting with Potassium phosphate and that's the whole reason why EI is dosed separately in a nutshell.
> By lowering the PH of the solution to below PH6 the iron should not react which is where the ascorbic acid comes in, the potassium sorbate is there as a preventative against mould etc.
> The iron that comes in the trace mixes above is EDTA and different types of chelated iron exist that are stronger such as DTPA which I'm told is the one to go for.



I see thanks for explaining mate. I guess I was unsure which chelated method the iron alone was using and thought I’d ask if combing that with micro would be possible if they are using different methods of chelate.  Especially if micro uses different methods and already has iron on the other method in there. Also I believed that the iron in the micro already was not as high as when adding extra for better results?

I noticed that plant foods sold it separately too and many people were saying they used it on top and it really helped so I thought maybe it could be just an all in one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## a1Matt

ian_m said:


> You must dose separately on different days as as the iron chelate in the micro will react with the macro phosphate and precipitate out as insoluble iron phosphate and be no longer available to plants.



If anyone is interested in my take on this, I responded to @ian_m earlier in the thread.


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## a1Matt

Something Fishy said:


> I see thanks for explaining mate. I guess I was unsure which chelated method the iron alone was using and thought I’d ask if combing that with micro would be possible if they are using different methods of chelate.  Especially if micro uses different methods and already has iron on the other method in there. Also I believed that the iron in the micro already was not as high as when adding extra for better results?
> 
> I noticed that plant foods sold it separately too and many people were saying they used it on top and it really helped so I thought maybe it could be just an all in one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's fine to mix iron with different chelators.
In fact some hobbyists specifically advocate doing so.

This is regardless of dosing method, so don't feel tied down to allinone for that reason.


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## Aqua sobriquet

Have a look at the pictures of some plant fertilisers I mixed up years ago. Both have trace in them but whilst one has stayed clear the other showed precipitation.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/why-macro-and-micro.57619/#post-561831


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