# Questions regarding soft water areas and 'Walstad Method'.



## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

Morning all, my first post on this forum as I'm struggling to get a clear answer whilst doing my 'google' research!

I've been running a couple of planted, 'low/ medium' tanks so far, a 46l and a 125l tropical.  They have both seen good planting results with a seachem fluorite base on one and a sand base on the larger with liquid ferts and liquid co2, fish have also been healthy and my water is pretty decent with minimal water changes and no algae in either tanks, both these have been active for a year and I'm chuffed !

Anyway... I've just splashed out (pardon the pun) on a new 180l tank. I want to try the Walstad Method and I'm concerned by my local water. I live in West Cumbria and it is a soft water area (although it is now a blend from boreholes now). On the water website it says the following;

Typical water hardness: Soft
Hardness clarke: 2.94
Date of update: 09/02/2018
Water supply zone: Ennerdale North
Water supply zone ref: Z031
The water supply to this area can vary in hardness from soft to moderately soft.

Now... I'm going to be buying John Innes No.3 soil for my 1 inch base and capping with 1-3mm gravel.
Will I need to mix in a source of CC (lime, coral etc) to keep my plants AND fish happy or am I going overboard? I'm assuming after initial cycling and water changes any chemical alteration I might see from the soil should reduce? Do I really need to start mucking about with the water chemistry or can I get away with it?

The tank will be quite heavily planted with the following;

3 x Limnophila hippuridoides
1 x Micranthemum 'monte carlo'
3 x Ludwigia palustris
2 x Eleocharis sp
2 x Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Tropica'
2 x Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'
1 x Anubias barteri var. nana
3 x Rotala bonsai
2 x Echinodorus tenellus
2 x Eleocharis acicularis 'mini'

I will initially be dosing liquid co2 until I will probably switch to pressurised. I will also be EI dosing (if and when it is needed as the tank matures.)

Can I just crack on or do I need to think about a CC source? I don't want to get the tank set up and have to drain it because I've mucked up at the first hurdle...

Sorry for the lengthy post, hope you can help!

Cheers,

MrHammonds


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## Tim Harrison (12 Feb 2018)

Hi and welcome 
I wouldn't worry unduly about water chemistry, especially if you plan to use JI No.3; it already has quite a high lime/CC content.
I'm guessing by Walstad you mean soil substrate tank. By definition you don't add carbon (CO2 or LC) or fertz to a Walstad tank.
If you haven't already, check out the Tutorials section and in particular this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/


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## dw1305 (12 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





MrHammonds said:


> Can I just crack on or do I need to think about a CC source?





MrHammonds said:


> Do I really need to start mucking about with the water chemistry or can I get away with it?


 You are fine, but you may need to <"change a bit more water"> to counter-act acidification due to the nitrification reactions.

I think some of the problems Diana Walstad had <"with fish health"> etc. were to do with her not changing any water. There are quite a few threads on the forum, but <"Water changes for a ...."> summarizes it.

If you want a cheap source of calcium carbonate you can add a small amount of  <"oyster (or cockle) shell chick grit"> or you can visit your local beach and get some sand, beaches on the west coast of the UK have a high component of <"maerl"> and sea-shell (as well as quartz) in the sand. 





MrHammonds said:


> I'm going to be buying John Innes No.3 soil for my 1 inch base and capping with 1-3mm gravel.


If you use JI No. 3 you don't need <"very much"> because it has a lot of fertiliser in it (and some lime).

Have a look at @Tim Harrison's tutorial on <"soil based tanks">.

cheers Darrel


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## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> Hi and welcome
> I wouldn't worry unduly about water chemistry, especially if you plan to use JI No.3; it already has quite a high lime/CC content.
> I'm guessing by Walstad you mean soil substrate tank. By definition you don't add carbon (CO2 or LC) or fertz to a Walstad tank.
> If you haven't already, check out the Tutorials section and in particular this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/



Thanks for the reply,

Yeh, I like the concept but I want to do more of a hybrid version that allows for good fish health and conditions, so you're right, basically a soil substrate tank haha!

I'll take a look at the tutorial now thanks!


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## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,  You are fine, but you may need to <"change a bit more water"> to counter-act acidification due to the nitrification reactions.
> 
> I think some of the problems Diana Walstad had <"with fish health"> etc. were to do with her not changing any water. There are quite a few threads on the forum, but <"Water changes for a ...."> summarizes it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the quick reply.

Would you suggest a different soil then, if heavy metals are an issue? (Taking that I have soft water in to account.)


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## dw1305 (12 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





MrHammonds said:


> Would you suggest a different soil then, if heavy metals are an issue?


I wouldn't be too worried about heavy metals, but if you've got a clay soil in your garden? that would be perfect. 

You can always add a little bit of osmocote (or similar controlled release fertilizer) to it. I have added a bit of leaf-mould as well in the past, Beech leaf mould is ideal. I only went for about 10% by volume clay and leaf mould, the rest was just sand, but it really depends how quickly you want your plants to grow. 

Personally I just want to keep them in active growth, after that the slower the better for me, if I wanted a lot more initial growth I would up the amount of soil. 

Looking at your plant list I think you really need a floating plant as well, Diana Walstad talks a lot about the <"aerial advantage"> in <"her book">. Have a look at <"Questions about new tank">. 

I like <"Amazon Frogbit">, but there are other options.  

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (12 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 
Another thought was that @AverageWhiteBloke may live relatively near to you, I know Cumbria is a big county but I think he resides somewhere in the Whitehaven area.

cheers Darrel


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## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I wouldn't be too worried about heavy metals, but if you've got a clay soil in your garden? that would be perfect.
> 
> You can always add a little bit of osmocote (or similar controlled release fertilizer) to it. I have added a bit of leaf-mould as well in the past, Beech leaf mould is ideal. I only went for about 10% by volume clay and leaf mould, the rest was just sand, but it really depends how quickly you want your plants to grow.
> 
> ...



I agree in regards to the plant growth, I'm totally happy with slower growth... as long as it's continuous. I'm starting to think that maybe an aquarium substrate (specific one) might be the best idea if I'm going to be dosing co2 and EI ferts anyway.

Am I over complicating things by wanting to do soil base?

Could I just put something like Tropica Plant Growth Substrate, then cap with a 1-3mm gravel to holds plants? I'd still see decent results there wouldn't I? I'm just worried about killing my plants and wasting my money?!?!?

I enjoy the maintenance of a planted tank anyway, so maybe I don't need a soil base????

Yeh I'll get some floating plants to deal with initial nutrient excess.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> I know Cumbria is a big county but I think he resides somewhere in the Whitehaven area.



I'm guessing @MrHammonds is from round my neck of the woods. Big county full of small towns where everyone knows your business  Round these here parts the bore hole water is a big deal. I wish I'd had the fore sight and bought in water purifiers in bulk for the paranoids round here. Strangely I seem to know Mr Hammonds face from somewhere. I didn't go down the route of soil, I didn't know enough about it and needed something set up quick with minimum fuss and problems so opted for cat litter and Osmocote with my <current low tech project>

Just seen OP has posted. I haven't updated my journal for a while as nothing much was happening but will be this week and carbonates was one of the issues I was going to raise on there. Our water is still extremely soft, it was even softer before with virtually no hardness you can measure other than with a TDS pen. On all my previous tanks I've always had Seiryu stone in which raised hardness enough to provide a buffer but with this tank it has became an issue.

If I was going down a soil route I would definitely be adding something to raise the hardness of the water. The hardness that comes out the tap (generally <1kh) quickly depletes, I would imagine in a soil substrate would deplete even quicker. I'm countering this at the minute with a small amount of coral gravel sprinkled in the tank out of eye shot. I also found a bag of "something" I had sitting around, I say something because I threw the box away when it got wet  from what I can remember it was equilibrium salts and this week I added a small pinch which seems to have stabilised the ph just enough. Currently changing about a third water weekly which also helps replenish some buffer but my intention is to change water less in the long term. 

For hassle free you could use normal plant soil. Tropica, the soil doesn't need capped. If you are going down the route of co2 injection seems to me dirtying the tank would be just an exercise. My understanding of it is people do all that to avoid co2 injection and all the problems that come with it. Either way, KH is something you need to keep an eye on. The majority of specialised  plant soils tend to either be inert or soften and acidify water none of which is any use to us. I don't inject co2 at the moment and the tapwater 7.3ph drops to 6.0 during the week. I'd imagine if you inject co2 into it you won't be far of a problem pretty quick.

If you need any of the floaters @dw1305 mentioned just give me a shout. I have them in abundance. Other plants not so right now, non co2 tanks are slow going. I haven't trimmed anything in my tank other than ropey leaves since I started it 2 months ago. Pity you weren't around then when I binned a full tanks worth.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Feb 2018)

BTW, my understanding of the bore hole situation is that united utilities have met concerns by only drawing from it when neccesary as opposed to blending all the time so it will be up or down. Even when it's up its still extremely soft water. I reckon with the amount of snow that's been sat on the fells for the last week or so which still needs to come down they won't be drawing of it for a while. No doubt localised flooding will be next soon as the rain comes back.


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## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I'm guessing @MrHammonds is from round my neck of the woods. Big county full of small towns where everyone knows your business  Round these here parts the bore hole water is a big deal. I wish I'd had the fore sight and bought in water purifiers in bulk for the paranoids round here. Strangely I seem to know Mr Hammonds face from somewhere. I didn't go down the route of soil, I didn't know enough about it and needed something set up quick with minimum fuss and problems so opted for cat litter and Osmocote with my <current low tech project>
> 
> Just seen OP has posted. I haven't updated my journal for a while as nothing much was happening but will be this week and carbonates was one of the issues I was going to raise on there. Our water is still extremely soft, it was even softer before with virtually no hardness you can measure other than with a TDS pen. On all my previous tanks I've always had Seiryu stone in which raised hardness enough to provide a buffer but with this tank it has became an issue.
> 
> ...



I actually didn't realise how soft the water was... a few of the 'locals' that I know (who keep fish) keep telling me it doesn't make much of a difference to my fish (with weekly changes.) Starting to think differently.

So I really need some sort of a buffer then, crushed coral in my filter or something? Just odd because my other tanks have run pretty well. Or would I just need a buffer substance if I ran a 'dirt' tank?

Do you have any experience with keeping soft water fish then? Seems like I might as well take advantage of our local water?!?!

I might have to take you up on the floaters!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Feb 2018)

Hello Pal, I would say the majority of fish in the hobby could be classed as soft water species if you were to track them back to their origin. A lot have been farmed for the hobby or bred over years to accept harder water. Obviously that doesn't include lake tangs and malawis, but most you find for sale will prefer water on the soft side.

We are very lucky round here with water, people pay to have water like ours then have to put the minerals back. I've no doubt your other tanks are doing fine, KH isn't something I generally worry about and never did if I'm honest but in my current tank I add tannins using oak and alder cones which normally would be OK but in this case I was borderline crashing the system.

Now in your case, if you change water weekly and low fish load that little bit of KH that's in the tap water should get you through the week. It's difficult to say whether the people who say it's fine may have stones, gravel or use some kind of buffer in their tank which raises KH without even knowing it. 

You mentioned earlier a Walsted tank which was more the worry. I would read up more on the links provided earlier as "dirty" tanks aren't my thing. From what I understand though of this method soil is used to provide nutrition and the breaking down of organics makes the water acidic and creates co2 and water changes are kept to a minimum (if at all) so the balance in the tank doesn't get disturbed. Effectively you are creating a water body if you like, using all the natural processes that occur to make the system balance itself. Lighting is usually kept quite low The fish, plants and lighting in equilibrium. During this process the KH buffer gets used up and it's a long time before you replenish it with a change. In hard water areas that's not a worry but with our water it is. Anyone feel free to correct that who has more knowledge of dirt.

To add to that you were contemplating putting co2 in there as well. So no buffer and plenty of things turning the water acidic=recipe for disaster. I just caught mine in time I think if you search for biogenic decalcification. I have been caught before with this and wiped out a full tank of ref cherry shrimp!

On top of that, tanks with little or no co2 plants will try and get their carbon from the carbonates reducing them further making the water softer and what you end up with is a runaway ph train.

If you want to go down the route of dirt then something in the dirt is essential I would say to raise the KH. Cumbria Aquatics at Workington sell loose bags of coral gravel for about 80p You could put some in a pair of tights and stick some in an external canister filter, mix some in the soil, put stones in the tank that raise KH or simply buy some commercial KH buffer or salt. There's plenty of options that way. I do my "proper" scapes with Seiryu stone. You can tell in the shop, its the grey stuff with white bits in also sold at the above or most stores. I found out early that water had no KH and this becomes problematic when doing ph profiles for testing co2. At very low KH ph doesn't mean much as it takes very little acid to drop ph a long way. Seiryu stone raises KH so having plenty in you can forget about your KH.

Co2 injection is a different game altogether. We don't allow the tank do things the natural (Walsted) way. We provide the ferts in large quants, pump co2 in and churn the whole lot over with big filtration and leave nothing to chance. Nothing to say you couldn't mix the systems but in this scenario the soil is less important because what the soil would do we take care of manually. 

Not sure if that's cleared anything up or made it more confusing haha but feel free to ask any questions. This is the most helpful planted tank forum you'll ever find. As for floaters just let me know and I'll drop some off np. I'm sort of in between tanks at the minute hence my low tech setup. Thoroughly enjoying it because it's minimum effort max reward but plants don't grow too fast. It's a holding pen for plants and fish right now until my next gas filled project so as such don't have much along the lines of plant cuttings but soon as I do you're welcome to any of them.

I've set up a Facebook group just for planted tanks round our parish to swap cuttings ( not much action) if you're interested let me know and I'll invite you, people keep popping up so at some point we could have a specimen of every plant under the sun at some point we can swap out without post. I think there's currently about 5 members of this board from round our way at the minute. Some active some not so.

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## alto (12 Feb 2018)

I'm not anywhere near you but have very soft tap - KH 0-1, GH 1-2,  pH ~ 6.4 (tanks run 6.0 - 6.4), minimal elements of any sort (it's really just rain water & snow melt)

I've tried adding Carib Sea reef sands (used the Arag-alive series as readily available at reasonable price) ... 

I've not observed measureable GH,KH increase despite having a 20% sand area in one tank - eventually removed as I did measure pH >8  & intended tank for chocolate gourami species

No significant GH,KH increase when various sands were used as a base layer under Aquatic Soils - again pH rose to ~ 8 (though I could avoid this with frequent 50% water changes - as in daily or alternate day)
Plants didn't seem to notice - root or leaf development

Last attempt was rather less reef sand mixed with Tropica Growth Substrate, then Tropica Aquarium Soil - this time no signifcant pH effect (60-70% weekly water changes), obviously no measured GH,KH effect, nothing significant observed in plant growth Next rescape, just went with Tropica Soil - though if you're going to set up a long term scape, I'd still include a layer of Growth Substrate type material 

Note

GH/KH test kits are relatively insentive (if GH/KH rose less than 1 "unit", kit shows no quantitative response)

I use Tropica Powder Soil - larger grain aquarium soil may act differently as it's definitely more "spaced"

As water is extremely soft, very little increase in ions is required for pH increase, I was surprised at that first pH>8 measurement (highest measured during that tank iteration was pH 9) as few fish (corydoras & harlequins) & shrimp in tank went about business as usual  
I decided to remove sand as chocolate gourami speceis are extremely difficult to obtain, they're also considered to be "very sensitive" (certainly they are when stressed, settled healthy S osphromenoides appear fairly robust - except when they decide to annihilate each other  )

I've seen loads of local tanks done dirt only, dirt under gravel - none particularly impressed 
I've seen some extraordinary online dirted tanks - but also saw online presentations of a tank I'd seen several times irl


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Feb 2018)

Yeah, from what I understand Alto KH tests, although considered somewhere near reliable relative to others tending to measure higher than actual are no good with our water. I've done a 10ml test so effectively working to half a degree and it changes on the first drop.

Like you we live in an area where we get rainwater off the fells and snow melt and the rocks round here are granite and peat/bracken slopes so the water here is amazon out the tap. Can't remember TDS, I think it's around 80 now and was in the 40's before the bore hole came into play. 

It's also strange PH as the water company buffer it up to 7.3, quite high in phosphates which is possibly what they buffer it up with? It seems to give the water a false reserve alkinity that quickly gets used up.

The coral gravel I put in plus a little touch of the equilibrium salt seems to have levelled out the PH at around 6.4. Previous to that I was getting 6.0 and down. Doesn't seem to have raised the KH though yet. I prefer this method rather than dumping powder in so there's no quick jump as the coral only dissolves in  when ph is acidic so is more gradual. 

Luckily the fish I keep are all softwater acidic and coming from a co2 injected tank they are no strangers to low ph. It was actually the plants that warned me. I had Australis which appeared to have whitening of leaves, nymphea which was going a strange washed out green colour and balansae which had curled up leaves. I tried a few tests just out of curiosity and realised the low ph readings and low KH. Since adding some carbonates all the plants have perked up again. Not sure if this was calcium deficiency of some kind or me adding carbonate to humic acidic water has generated a little co2 but adding carbonates has improved the situation so I'll roll with that.

Just thinking there, I'll probably find mr Hammond  lives next door. One of the members in here I came across last time I actually worked with him. 





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## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Hello Pal, I would say the majority of fish in the hobby could be classed as soft water species if you were to track them back to their origin. A lot have been farmed for the hobby or bred over years to accept harder water. Obviously that doesn't include lake tangs and malawis, but most you find for sale will prefer water on the soft side.
> 
> We are very lucky round here with water, people pay to have water like ours then have to put the minerals back. I've no doubt your other tanks are doing fine, KH isn't something I generally worry about and never did if I'm honest but in my current tank I add tannins using oak and alder cones which normally would be OK but in this case I was borderline crashing the system.
> 
> ...



Hi!

Yeh I think that since we have soft water, I'd prefer to make this new 180l tank I'm getting tomorrow a 'softer water' species tank, but try keep the fish from one region (not a specific river because it becomes too restrictive.)

I think I've talked myself out of the Walstad method, but I'll still put a layer of tropical aquatic substrate down and probably cap it with a 1-3mm gravel to hold plants down.

The 2 other tanks I run are both quite well planted for the size and seem to manage any Nitrate as I always seem to have a 0 reading after a week and only a 15% water change.

I think what I know now is I'm ditching the Walstad route. 

Yeh I'd happily join that group and offer up any cuttings anyone might need, especially once this bigger tank is set up and hopefully thriving! 

Thanks again for you lengthy and quick responses!


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## MrHammonds (12 Feb 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Yeah, from what I understand Alto KH tests, although considered somewhere near reliable relative to others tending to measure higher than actual are no good with our water. I've done a 10ml test so effectively working to half a degree and it changes on the first drop.
> 
> Like you we live in an area where we get rainwater off the fells and snow melt and the rocks round here are granite and peat/bracken slopes so the water here is amazon out the tap. Can't remember TDS, I think it's around 80 now and was in the 40's before the bore hole came into play.
> 
> ...



What's the usual life of coral? If I put it in to this external filter, how long can I expect it to have a 'buffer' effect?

Well I do live Whitehaven way!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (12 Feb 2018)

It will always have a buffer effect and last a very long time. It just dissolves in the water but the water would have to be acidic. Once the water neutralises to ph7 it stops dissolving. 

I'm finding that the PH can drop quicker than the coral can deal with it. I'm building up a background level so there is some KH in the water. A far easier way to deal with it would probably be to add baking soda, supposedly half a teaspoon will raise kh by 1 degree in 100 ltrs of water. It will also push up the PH hence me just putting a pinch in to help the coral out. Didn't want any quick swings. Keeping the coral in the tank and adding a little pinch at water change time I'm hoping to get about 2 degrees in the tank eventually and hold it there. 



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## sciencefiction (12 Feb 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I'm finding that the PH can drop quicker than the coral can deal with it.


 
Crushed coral and other similar calcium carbonate sources are poor buffers. They don't dissolve fast enough to counteract the constantly used up KH, especially in tanks high in organic mulm and stock(soil is not a good choice in soft water tanks)

I think one needs to use both soda bi-carbonate as buffer and some calcium carbonate source and/or other enhancing additives inlcusive of magnesium sulfate as source of minerals. Aragonite in the form of oolitic sand has larger surface area and will dissolve faster, so is perhaps a better choice than crushed coral.  All of these will have a tendency to push the pH up towards 8.2 if too much has been added, though I don't see a problem with that considering there won't be much change in either hardness or conductivity. The water will still be soft...unlesss one manages to dissolve entire rocks  The pH jumps up because, as already mentioned, small changes in water chemistry in soft water will have huge Ph jumps but the fish should not care when it's going upwards. They'll manage just fine in a pH up to 8.2 but very few survive very acidic crashing pH. 

Alternatively, if nothing is added to very soft water, presuming the tap water does have some minimal buffering, the only way is large very frequent water changes, low stocking levels, clean filters and substrate, etc...As long as one keeps the tank as clean and as water changed the Amazon river, the tank will be stable


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

Yeah I'm discovering that mate. I have a lot of leaf litter in my tank and is quite heavily stocked, the tank ended up being a home for some fish until I sort something else out but they may end up staying there indefinitely, can't see any point disturbing them now.  

I'm finding that with the crushed coral in just scattered on the gravel that the ph still drops just not as fast and adding the KH buffer has also helped. The salt I put in was some kind of aqualibrium salt "with ph buffers" that I've had sitting around here probably for years. Can't remember exactly but I think it was the one in the image, Looks familiar anyway. Iost the box and just kept the bag in a jar. I'm assuming it will contain some kind of carbonates. Also dosing Epsom salts as well for magnesium. 

For me and the op would probably be worth while getting hold of some potassium carbonate maybe? My tank is only a couple of months old and has just finished cycling so been getting 2 or 3 small changes per week. That would be the ideal but for me my tank is in my office and I work away a bit do ideally once per week is what it will be getting more realistically once every two weeks.




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## MrHammonds (13 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Crushed coral and other similar calcium carbonate sources are poor buffers. They don't dissolve fast enough to counteract the constantly used up KH, especially in tanks high in organic mulm and stock(soil is not a good choice in soft water tanks)
> 
> I think one needs to use both soda bi-carbonate as buffer and some calcium carbonate source and/or other enhancing additives inlcusive of magnesium sulfate as source of minerals. Aragonite in the form of oolitic sand has larger surface area and will dissolve faster, so is perhaps a better choice than crushed coral.  All of these will have a tendency to push the pH up towards 8.2 if too much has been added, though I don't see a problem with that considering there won't be much change in either hardness or conductivity. The water will still be soft...unlesss one manages to dissolve entire rocks  The pH jumps up because, as already mentioned, small changes in water chemistry in soft water will have huge Ph jumps but the fish should not care when it's going upwards. They'll manage just fine in a pH up to 8.2 but very few survive very acidic crashing pH.
> 
> Alternatively, if nothing is added to very soft water, presuming the tap water does have some minimal buffering, the only way is large very frequent water changes, low stocking levels, clean filters and substrate, etc...As long as one keeps the tank as clean and as water changed the Amazon river, the tank will be stable



So... Let me round this up for my own benefit.

1) I'm going to avoid soil, I don't want it further messing with my already soft water.

2) I'll pick an 'inert' aquatic substrate that doesn't effect pH, like the Seachem fluorite (but still has nutrients for plants) I have in my other tank, and if I want for aesthetic reasons, cap with gravel etc.

3) Careful with co2 dosing as it can cause water to 'swing' more acidic.

4) Slightly understock with fish, keep to softer water species that prefer a slightly acidic pH - SE Asian and South America being good areas to look at?

5) Keep on top of water changes every week to dilute the acidity and introduce some hardness back in to the aquarium.

That sound about right?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

Give or take mate. You can easily avoid all these things by hardening the water which is quite simple. On point 3 co2 is a weak acid and not that much of a worry. 

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## sciencefiction (13 Feb 2018)

MrHammonds said:


> Careful with co2 dosing as it can cause water to 'swing' more acidic



I have comment only on point 3) The rest seems like a fine plan to me.
 CO2 has no effect on KH, so in effect it will not change your water chemistry. In other words, pH changes due to injection of CO have no effect on fish. The catch here is that CO2 is the danger itself. It is toxic to fish. The toxicity level depends on the species of fish.


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## X3NiTH (13 Feb 2018)

I use potassium bicarbonate for added KH, I have also been experimenting adding both KH and GH to my water change water using calcium bicarbonate which is a bit more involved to accomplish. To get calcium bicarbonate from calcium carbonate you need to add it to acidic water. My source of calcium carbonate is the scooped out matrix of cuttlefish bone which powders to a flour readily, 1g of calcium carbonate to my 25l water change container should give me a GH of 2.24 and KH of 2.24. 

To get the calcium bicarbonate solution I take a Sodastream bottle and fill it with RO/DI water (900ml to the fill line), I then stick the filled bottle in the freezer for it to get it super cold but not frozen, when it's cold enough I use a Sodastream machine to inject CO₂ into the water, two full rounds of gas filling gets it saturated with CO₂, I then quickly add the 1g of cuttlefish bone matrix to the bottle and close the lid (before it fizzes everywhere), I then give it a good shake and stick it in the fridge overnight, by next day about 90% of the powder has completely dissolved into solution. When I need to perform a water change I then add the bicarbonate solution to my 25l water change container (I'm using RO/DI) and it gives me about a GH of 2 and KH of 2. I can also make the water change water in advance and give it time to let the excess added CO₂ to gas off in the water change container without precipitating out the added calcium.

I'm doing it this way because I don't want to add anything that leaches hardness into the tank between water changes.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

Hmm, interesting stuff, few options available then. Not sure if I will keep adding the powder I have over the long term. Although it says buffers ph I suspect its mainly like a tonic salt, from what I understand it could be mainly sodium and from what I gather too much sodium in the tank isn't a good thing.


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## dw1305 (13 Feb 2018)

Hi all,





alto said:


> As water is extremely soft, very little increase in ions is required for pH increase, I was surprised at that first pH>8 measurement (highest measured during that tank iteration was pH 9) as few fish (corydoras & harlequins) & shrimp in tank went about business as usual


That is it, as you move towards pure H2O pH becomes less and less stable, and changes in the amounts of dissolved oxygen and CO2 cause large swings in pH. 

Soft water fish are adapted to this, it happens naturally in soft vegetated water. There is a more complete explanation in <"Biogenic decalcification">. 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> no quick jump as the coral only dissolves in when ph is acidic so is more gradual.





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> It's also strange PH as the water company buffer it up to 7.3, quite high in phosphates which is possibly what they buffer it up with? It seems to give the water a false reserve alkinity that quickly gets used up.


Both of these are back to the buffering concept, buffering has a very specific definition and refers to a compound that doesn't fully disassociate into ions. Calcium carbonate is a "buffer", but the NaOH they add to tap water to raise pH isn't, it is a strong base and goes into solution as Na+ and OH- ions. 

The phosphate is added to stop lead (Pb), copper (Cu) & zinc (Zn) from pipes etc. going into solution, if the pH did drop below pH7 you would still get insoluble lead phosphates etc formed. There is more in the <"Popping Kettles"> thread. 





MrHammonds said:


> Slightly understock with fish, keep to softer water species that prefer a slightly acidic pH - SE Asian and South America being good areas to look at?


Yes. Black-water fish need really low carbonate hardness, but fish from clear and white water rivers are fine. I don't know what fish you like, but <"_Apistogramma panduro">, _ is a favourite of mine.





X3NiTH said:


> I use potassium bicarbonate for added KH,


This will go into solution, (group one metal carbonates are highly soluble) and provides some potassium as well. 





X3NiTH said:


> To get the calcium bicarbonate solution I take a Sodastream bottle and fill it with RO/DI water (900ml to the fill line), I then stick the filled bottle in the freezer for it to get it super cold but not frozen, when it's cold enough I use a Sodastream machine to inject CO₂ into the water, two full rounds of gas filling gets it saturated with CO₂, I then quickly add the 1g of cuttlefish bone matrix to the bottle and close the lid (before it fizzes everywhere), I then give it a good shake and stick it in the fridge overnight, by next day about 90% of the powder has completely dissolved into solution.


That will work gases are more soluble at low temperature, and the elevated CO2 levels will dissolve more CaCO3. Cuttle "bone" is particularly spongy to start off with and is the biogenic aragonite form of calcium carbonate, which is more soluble than calcite. 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Although it says buffers ph I suspect its mainly like a tonic salt, from what I understand it could be mainly sodium and from what I gather too much sodium in the tank isn't a good thing.


That would be my guess, often the blurb says something about "osmotic balance", but the sodium chloride (NaCl) is really in there as a cheap filler. 

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

Was having a look at Potassium Carbonate on ebay, supposedly raises KH without raising PH which would be a benefit for softwater acidic fish like the German Rams I have but strangely it says "will soften hardwater" Go figure!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

So Darrel between Potassium Carbonate and Potassium Bicarbonate what are the main differences and advantages?


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## MrHammonds (13 Feb 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> I have comment only on point 3) The rest seems like a fine plan to me.
> CO2 has no effect on KH, so in effect it will not change your water chemistry. In other words, pH changes due to injection of CO have no effect on fish. The catch here is that CO2 is the danger itself. It is toxic to fish. The toxicity level depends on the species of fish.



Ok, go it. I can continue with the liquid co2 in my other tanks then, I only dose 1ml a day in my quite well planted 46l as it seemed to help (had slow growth initially, now happy.)

I'll be initially dosing my new 180l with liquid carbon until I decide what to do, if the tank starts to stall (plant growth wise) i'll look at upping the co2.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

MrHammonds said:


> Ok, go it. I can continue with the liquid co2 in my other tanks then, I only dose 1ml a day in my quite well planted 46l as it seemed to help (had slow growth initially, now happy.)
> 
> I'll be initially dosing my new 180l with liquid carbon until I decide what to do, if the tank starts to stall (plant growth wise) i'll look at upping the co2.



Liquid carbon has no effect on water parameters regarding PH or KH. Its a chemical plants can convert into a source of carbon with a mild anti algaecide property originally designed for sterilising medical equipment. Could get quite expensive on a 180L, co2 injection is safer (in the right hands) and a more cost effective solution in the long term obviosly once you've bought the regulator. I get 5kg bottles from Solway heaters for £15. Having said that, if you keep lighting down sometimes there is no need for co2. My current setup had no co2 or Liquid carbon and has steady but slow healthy growth because I keep on top of the lighting.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> That would be my guess, often the blurb says something about "osmotic balance", but the sodium chloride (NaCl) is really in there as a cheap filler.



Yeah, I think when I bought it that was the intention. I used it in a treatment tank for a fish I had with a fungus problem and to sterilise my nets.


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## MrHammonds (13 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,That is it, as you move towards pure H2O pH becomes less and less stable, and changes in the amounts of dissolved oxygen and CO2 cause large swings in pH.
> 
> Soft water fish are adapted to this, it happens naturally in soft vegetated water. There is a more complete explanation in <"Biogenic decalcification">. Both of these are back to the buffering concept, buffering has a very specific definition and refers to a compound that doesn't fully disassociate into ions. Calcium carbonate is a "buffer", but the NaOH they add to tap water to raise pH isn't, it is a strong base and goes into solution as Na+ and OH- ions.
> 
> ...



In regards to the fish, I'm still undecided on what to stock in this 180l. It's going to be well planted, bit of driftwood etc etc... that's all I know so far, I keep changing my mind.

So dwarf cichlids, in general, will suit the water I have with minimal need to alter the chemistry of it? I would prefer to keep fish that I can just do 15/20% maintenance water changes each week and not have to worry about them. It seems to make sense now that the livebearers I've had in the past, I've had mixed success with... the endlers I kept (and still have) in the 46l seem to do fine, but I did have 3 deaths (out of 10) when I first got them. But then again, the swordtails in my 125l community seem to be the most lively and healthy of all my fish in there.

I know it's not the original thread topic but I could do with a hand/ some guidance on what fish would be good for this new 180l now armed with my knowledge on my local water etc. I like the idea of having a South America soft water themed tank (not a biotope since I think it will limit what I can have) or even a SE Asian soft water themed (my fish knowledge is pretty limited since I'm still pretty new to the hobby.)


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## MrHammonds (13 Feb 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Liquid carbon has no effect on water parameters regarding PH or KH. Its a chemical plants can convert into a source of carbon with a mild anti algaecide property originally designed for sterilising medical equipment. Could get quite expensive on a 180L, co2 injection is safer (in the right hands) and a more cost effective solution in the long term obviosly once you've bought the regulator. I get 5kg bottles from Solway heaters for £15. Having said that, if you keep lighting down sometimes there is no need for co2. My current setup had no co2 or Liquid carbon and has steady but slow healthy growth because I keep on top of the lighting.



That 5kg bottle, what size tank is it on and how long 'generally' does it seem to last? I will almost definitely be getting a co2 kit for the 180l just haven't done enough research/ priced it up yet.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

The worlds your oyster mate. You can see our water as a blank canvas. I know a couple of Discus breeders round our way who successfully breed with tapwater. A lot of the live bearers are poor stock so I wouldn’t worry too much over losses of them.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

MrHammonds said:


> That 5kg bottle, what size tank is it on and how long 'generally' does it seem to last? I will almost definitely be getting a co2 kit for the 180l just haven't done enough research/ priced it up yet.



I got through a 5kg bottle about once per year in a 100ltr tank. Liquid co2 is no where near as effective as co2 but good things can still be done with tanks. Only downside is certain plants don't seem to like it.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

MrHammonds said:


> So dwarf cichlids, in general, will suit the water I have with minimal need to alter the chemistry of it? I would prefer to keep fish that I can just do 15/20% maintenance water changes each week and not have to worry about them.



Co2 injection comes with its own unique set of problems. Without a doubt it accelerates plant growth but it also accelerates all the other processes that go on in the tank. End result is more spade work on your behalf. Tank maintenance needs kept at an optimum, plants, like the fish have waste bi products. Injecting co2 also increases demands for nutrients. You have to be on the ball with co2, flow and nutrient delivery and also be prepared to be doing some large scale water changes. Rule of thumb is generally seen as 50% per week.

If you want low maintenance  15 to 20% per week the slower the growth the less work is required. All of which is governed by the lighting you decide to put over the tank. The higher the lighting the higher the demand for ferts and co2. Coming back to your initial Walsted suggestion, if the lighting is low enough the demand for co2 and ferts can be met by the soil and fish waste. It's a balancing act and done correctly has some great results but requires a good understanding of processes going on in the tank.

High tech tanks on the other hand, like some of the planted tank porn that you see in here you take over those processes. forget if there's enough of this and enough of that. You just make sure there is in abundance and get the plants growing as fast as. It's a fine line to be walking though, pushing plant growth to the max you need to be on the ball as one thing wrong can result in an algae farm.

I've been down that road, bought the T-Shirt and probably will get the hat again some day but my new approach is to see what can be achieved without going down the "high energy" route. There's plenty of room in between, it all depends on your goals. Me, personally, I keep fish long term in a planted tank where the plants are doing the majority of the filtration and all the benefits that come with them. I'm not getting my tank ready for a photo shoot or preparing for a competition. Patience I have plenty of, spare time not so. It's not an either or situation, look at walsted style and high energy as two opposing ends of the spectrum. Start a tank off low tech if it's a long term project and keep lighting down, push the lighting up over time and work out ff a bit extra co2 would benefit and a bit more fertiliser until you find a sweet spot between enjoying the hobby and a full time job would be my suggestion.


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## dw1305 (13 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> So Darrel between Potassium Carbonate and Potassium Bicarbonate what are the main differences and advantages?


The simple answer is that it is a lot easier to store potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3), potassium carbonate (K2CO3) takes up atmospheric moisture until it melts, so you need to keep it in an air tight container (or the freezer). A kilo of either is about £7, so they are both cheap compounds to buy. 

If you want to add potassium, and raise pH, then potassium carbonate is better, because it has the formula K2CO3, you've added one more potassium (than with potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3)), it is also a  base and will raise pH significantly.  The actual pH values are <"here: bases follow acids">. 

With potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) , because you have one less K+ ion (and potassium is an <"alkali metal">) and one more H+ ion (and acids are H+ ion donors) it is a weak base and will only slightly raise pH, but you've still supplied a carbonate ion, so the dKH is higher (and the addition is the same for either compound, if you use moles as your measure, but not if you use weights, they have different RMMs). 

Whether the carbonate ion you've added remains as CO3--, or becomes HCO3- (or CO2), depends upon the pH of the solution. If you don't add CO2 the amount of D/TIC (dissolved/total inorganic carbon) remain the same (it is dependent upon the 400ppm CO2 in the atmosphere).  




 

Because K+ is a monovalent cation neither compound has raised the dGH (the amount of divalent cations).

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, The simple answer is that it is a lot easier to store potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3), potassium carbonate (K2CO3) takes up atmospheric moisture until it melts, so you need to keep it in an air tight container (or the freezer). A kilo of either is about £7, so they are both cheap compounds to buy.
> 
> If you want to add potassium, and raise pH, then potassium carbonate is better, because it has the formula K2CO3, you've added one more potassium (than with potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3)), it is also a  base and will raise pH significantly.  The actual pH values are <"here: bases follow acids">.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up Darrel. Would you suggest Potassium Bicarbonate sounds the better option? For my fish I don't mind the slightly acidic ph. As the water comes out the tap at 7.3 it sounds like I could keep the water slightly acidic with the use of leaves etc but the extra KH preventing any sudden drops.

In the mean time, revert to type. Chucked a piece of Seiryu stone in....it all helps but just looks odd. Will take it back out when I sort which salt to buy.



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## dw1305 (13 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Will take it back out when I sort which salt to buy.


 There is a DIY <"re-mineralising mix"> at James' Planted Tank. 

I don't need to re-mineralise my rain-water because it already has some carbonate buffering, and our tap supply is pretty clean and ~18 dGH/dKH, but if I did need to I'd just go down the cockle/oyster shell chick grit route, it costs pennies and it gets the job done. 

Beach sand could be another option for you? It will have plenty of maerl and shell in it. Anywhere with sand dunes would be ideal, I know it is sandy down towards Sellafield.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

You obviously have more faith than I do about what's coming out the back of Sellafield  I don't actually have anywhere to put this stuff though Darrel as I only have sponge filters running so other than sit it on top of existing gravel I guess some powder at water change is my only option.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> With potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) , because you have one less K+ ion (and potassium is an <"alkali metal">) and one more H+ ion (and acids are H+ ion donors) it is a weak base and will only slightly raise pH, but you've still supplied a carbonate ion, so the dKH is higher (and the addition is the same for either compound, if you use moles as your measure, but not if you use weights, they have different RMMs).



Just to clear this up @dw1305 which one raises the PH the most? I came across this last night when I was looking to order some which seems to suggest that Potassium bicarbonate raises PH more than Pottasium Carbonate. Not questioning you at all, I think that page maybe wrong but that's the opposite of what I'm reading here. Just checking whether or not I'm reading this right?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

I can also see in the link you provided that Carbonate is a lot further up the scale than "KHCO3 potassium hydrogen carbonate" which I'm assuming is Bicarbonate?


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## dw1305 (13 Feb 2018)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Just to clear this up @dw1305 which one raises the PH the most?





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Carbonate is a lot further up the scale than "KHCO3 potassium hydrogen carbonate" which I'm assuming is Bicarbonate?


Potassium carbonate, it has two potassium ions,. Potassium bicarbonate ("potassium hydrogen carbonate") has a potassium ion (a base) and a hydrogen ion (an acid).





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> sit it on top of existing gravel


 That would do, it will all end up below the gravel over time. 

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (13 Feb 2018)

Much appreciated Darrel, I ordered some Bicarbonate so thought I'd got that wrong. Obviously it was the page I linked that was out. Just panicked when I saw James's recipe and he was using carbonate. Sorry to @MrHammonds for jumping all over your post, I actually popped in to help but I think the information within this post is going to help you and I a great deal as I feel it's something that will rear its head for you at some point also. Now we both know


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## MrHammonds (14 Feb 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Much appreciated Darrel, I ordered some Bicarbonate so thought I'd got that wrong. Obviously it was the page I linked that was out. Just panicked when I saw James's recipe and he was using carbonate. Sorry to @MrHammonds for jumping all over your post, I actually popped in to help but I think the information within this post is going to help you and I a great deal as I feel it's something that will rear its head for you at some point also. Now we both know



Ha yeh, not a problem! No doubt it'll come in handy!


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## dw1305 (14 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Just panicked when I saw James's recipe and he was using carbonate


It doesn't really matter where you get the ions from. It is worth learning a little bit of inorganic chemistry, it helps with decision making.

The <"earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago"> and all the elements, heavier than helium, were already present and had been formed billions of years before that in the nuclear furnace of a massive Yellow Giant star. As the temperature and pressure rose heavier and heavier elements were forged before it imploded in a supernovae explosion and spewed them all out into interstellar space. All the ions, compounds and elements (and all living things) are made of that star-dust.

A reactive element, like oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, potassium etc., has been combined in millions of compounds over the years. Carbon atoms can be found in various elemental solids (diamond, graphite, graphene, charcoal etc.), gases, rocks, all living organisms, dissolved in water as HCO3- etc. but they are all the same C12 atoms, and constantly cycled from one state to the next. 

You can even burn ("oxidise") a diamond and convert it into CO2.

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (14 Feb 2018)

Hmm, burning diamonds? And I thought bottled CO2 was expensive. Lol.
Another interesting thing to do with carbon is to have your ashes turned into a diamond when you die.


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## dw1305 (14 Feb 2018)

Hi all, 





sparkyweasel said:


> Hmm, burning diamonds? And I thought bottled CO2 was expensive.


Might be a business opportunity for some-one. I can see the blurb: "_diamond ash CO2, you can't have a successful planted tank without it_", and a celebrity endorsement, it's a pity Zsa Zsa Gabor has died, Bobby George maybe? maybe not. 





sparkyweasel said:


> with carbon is to have your ashes turned into a diamond when you die.


Yes that is it, any form of carbon can be converted to another form of carbon under the right conditions. 





> .......His breakthrough was using a "belt" press, which was capable of producing pressures above 10 GPa (1,500,000 psi) and temperatures above 2,000 °C (3,630 °F). The press used a pyrophyllite container in which graphite was dissolved within molten nickel, cobalt or iron. Those metals acted as a "solvent-catalyst", which both dissolved carbon and accelerated its conversion into diamond.....


 from the Wikipedia <"Synthetic (Industrial) Diamond"> article.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (14 Feb 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Might be a business opportunity for some-one. I can see the blurb: "_diamond ash CO2, you can't have a successful planted tank without it_", and a celebrity endorsement, it's a pity Zsa Zsa Gabor has died, Bobby George maybe? maybe not. Yes that is it, any form of carbon can be converted to another form of carbon under the right conditions.  from the Wikipedia <"Synthetic (Industrial) Diamond"> article.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Racking my Brain now, I remember watching a movie once where there was a massive diamond involved and when they got to it it was a piece of coal. The guy said "it will be a diamond...in about a million years time"

 I know, I'm being a bit random, it was just something that stuck in my mind for a very long time, obviously more than the movie or stars of it did. Help me out here!

Coming back to the carbonate thing. I quite like the idea of the soft acid water and the tannins. Anything that prevents large swings but allows me keep some acidity is good with me. First time I've run a blackwater style tank but keeping that tea colour without crashing out with water this soft is going to be a struggle without something buffering. Also it's not a tank I can spend a lot of time on, it's been getting some tlc with being mainly office based but there's going to be times when I might not be able to get to it for a while and I'd like to know it's stable until I get back. 

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