# Illegal Fish and LFS'



## Gill

Okay so over the last week I have been in discussion with a few government departments and PFK(Nathan), over a few fish I bought. 

I had taken my Little Boy to try out a new playgroup. He did not like it so we went to a garden centre that has a nice Soft play area for children. When we got there it was really busy and there was a queue to get in. So decided to take him round the LFS that is 'Instore'. 
Browsing the tanks for a while I had made my Mind up to buy some Scarlet Badis'. Then I caught sight of some fish I had not seen In A long time. Hi-Fin Sharks, I immediately asked one of the staff it the ban had been lifted on these fish. They were adamant that the ban had been lifted on these, and a licence was no longer required for these fish. Okay so I bought 2. 

Got Home and still had a niggling feeling that they may have lied, ( they stated that they have been popular and have had them on sale for a while). So posted on the PFK wall on FB admin by Nathan Hill. He got back very quick to say that after looking around, nothing had changed and they were still on the banned list. He pointed me in the direction of DEFRA. 
WhichI had already started with and found the ILFA Application for Non Native Species. They were still on there, so fired off an email to DEFRA and Cefas. Both parties contacted me and confirmed that it is still as i suspected. I returned the Fish this morning for a full refund, as they were not cheap either.  Cefas Asked for the name of the LFS and I advised them of which LFS it is. 



Would you have told them which store it is, that is was selling the illegal fish. I feel I have done the right thing, as they are falsely selling the fish to unwitting customers. Who may land themselves in alot of trouble, as did the gentleman who was caught with them a few years back.


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## madlan

I would have told them which store it was without question - If enough shops are doing this world wide it could directly lead to the extinction of that species, not something we really want to burden the hobby with!

It's bad enough with marine\reef keeping and wild collected animals, I can see this becoming more of a problem in the future as habitat loss increases on land.

Well done for pursuing it Gill!


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## Joecoral

How long have these been banned for? Because I have seen a batch in for sale in a local aquarium shop about 3 years ago


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## Iain Sutherland

If you do a google UK search there are 3 shops advertising these sharks for sale in the UK at the moment??  Are there different varieties and only some are banned?? Or do DEFRa  need to use the internet more??


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## Gill

I now Know they have been banned for at least 10+ years. There is only 1 species I know of, you can email the department  who will be contacting/visiting the stores- Cefas Fish Health Inspectorate Fish.Health.Inspectorate@cefas.co.uk


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## Derek Tweedie

It's such a shame that a minority spoil these fish and others for the majority. I used to have a similar fish which had a trade name of Amur Sucker which now is also banned. On a similar note I was at outsideinside a few months ago and he had the Dwarf Mexican Crayfish. I was quite excited about these and had money for them. I went down to get them they were in a display tank not for sale as they were illegal and classed as an invasive species. Then last week I saw them for sale in water wonders for £30 each which is a steap price to pay. But I asked a member of staff and he said that if they were banned they wouldn't have made it through customs. Can anyone clarify this for me?


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## a1Matt

Gill said:
			
		

> Would you have told them which store it is, that is was selling the illegal fish. I feel I have done the right thing



+1.
You did the right thing


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Then last week I saw them (Dwarf Mexican Crayfish) for sale in water wonders for £30 each which is a steep price to pay. But I asked a member of staff and he said that if they were banned they wouldn't have made it through customs. Can anyone clarify this for me?


They are definitely banned. All Crayfish are, other than _Cherax quadricarinatus_. There are no legal _Cambarellus_ species, we had this come up on another forum where I'm staff after someone offered "Mexican orange crayfish" for sale. I believe that these have been offered for sale at a well known large pet chain as well.

You need to contact Dr Paul Stebbing at CEFAS/FHI in Weymouth.

FHI on 01305 206673 or 
email:  fish.health.inspectorate@cefas.co.uk. 

cheers Darrel


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## Gill

Interesting, Never really thought about Crayfish being illegal. I do see how they could decimate a local population if released into the wild, As i have read about some that are able to self clone.


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## Iain Sutherland

Gill said:
			
		

> Interesting, Never really thought about Crayfish being illegal. I do see how they could decimate a local population if released into the wild, As i have read about some that are able to self clone.



There are so few native crayfish left already as the american crayfish have smashed there numbers, on up side i love catching the americans for a tasty meal and put the few natives back. 5 x native  - 100 x american each net.


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## Garuf

I was under the impression it was that the american crays carried a plague which was what wiped out the natives? A lot of the research we have is from Germany who have a real problem with non-natives gone feral which is the reason for the outright cray ban.


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## Joecoral

Is grassing on the store the correct thing to do? The store may have been unaware these fish were illegal in the trade, and assumed that if it came up on an importers list that they were legal to import / sell in the uk?


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## Derek Tweedie

You need a to obtain a license for them up here in Scotland but I doubt they give them Outsideinside was rejected one. Another fish which you need a license for up here but not in England is Channa sp. But it may be another fish heading on the band list as this too is classed as an invasive species.


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## Tom

Would be a shame if Channa end up banned :/


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## nayr88

Didnt know you was a channa fan Tom! I have a channa pannaw  

I think you did the right thing mate, for sure

They knew that they had got a batch to sell to make some bucks, they knew there was a ban in the 1st place you, should of looked into it before importing.


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## Joecoral

nayr88 said:
			
		

> they knew there was a ban in the 1st place you, should of looked into it before importing.



Did they though? Do you think the shop has time to investigate the legal status of species every time something new pops up on the importers list?

Yes fair enough you could probably expect an experienced aquarist to know they were illegal. But if a fish comes up on an importers list most would just assume they are legally able to be imported and would do so without realising their error.

Fair enough if the shop intentionally imported an illegal fish then by all means report them, but we don't necessarily know that's the case, they may be completely unaware

You say the shop told you the ban had been lifted, one could quite easily assume that if something previously banned appeared on an import list that the ban had therefore been lifted


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## Iain Sutherland

Joecoral said:
			
		

> nayr88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they knew there was a ban in the 1st place you, should of looked into it before importing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did they though? Do you think the shop has time to investigate the legal status of species every time something new pops up on the importers list?
> 
> Yes fair enough you could probably expect an experienced aquarist to know they were illegal. But if a fish comes up on an importers list most would just assume they are legally able to be imported and would do so without realising their error.
Click to expand...


there's no excuse for it, its their business and should be aware of any regulations relating to that business.
In an ideal world importers would know but given they probably ship to many countries its unrealistic to believe they will be more knowledgeable than retailers in each country.  The buck stops at uk retailers in relation to uk regulation.


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## Gill

TBH, It is down to the store and the person who does the ordering. To make sure they are within the current government guidlines. You would never see this type of mistake being made @ some of the MA stores I visit. Thru questioning I know they are always up to date on legislation, As they Import alot of fish direct from farms in Asia. 
A Company as big as WOW should Know better, and the mistakes of a few employees could jeopardise the store.


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## sanj

There is no question in my mind that you did the right thing. What puzzles me a little is if you knew about the species and the huge size they get to, what made you purchase them? All the same your follow up is to be commended.


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## Gill

sanj said:
			
		

> What puzzles me a little is if you knew about the species and the huge size they get to, what made you purchase them?



Yes I know about the Size requirements for the adults, but as they are such slow growers it was not an issue.


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## Morgan Freeman

Joecoral said:
			
		

> nayr88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they knew there was a ban in the 1st place you, should of looked into it before importing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did they though? Do you think the shop has time to investigate the legal status of species every time something new pops up on the importers list?
> 
> Yes fair enough you could probably expect an experienced aquarist to know they were illegal. But if a fish comes up on an importers list most would just assume they are legally able to be imported and would do so without realising their error.
> 
> Fair enough if the shop intentionally imported an illegal fish then by all means report them, but we don't necessarily know that's the case, they may be completely unaware
> 
> You say the shop told you the ban had been lifted, one could quite easily assume that if something previously banned appeared on an import list that the ban had therefore been lifted
Click to expand...


Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to breaking the law. The store should have known and if they didn't, tough.


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## Gill

Looks like they are on sale in a few more shops, email addy given to those who want it.


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## Tim Harrison

> Is grassing on the store the correct thing to do? The store may have been unaware these fish were illegal in the trade, and assumed that if it came up on an importers list that they were legal to import / sell in the uk?



Absolutely it's the right thing to do - _Ignorantia juris non excusat_ - ignorance of the law does not excuse - so whether they knew or not is irrelevant…but I find it difficult to believe they didn't. Either way it's important to educate, to prevent future occurrences.

Speaking as someone who has dedicated more than their fair share of time and effort to the conservation of threatened and endangered species and habitats - these laws are created for a reason and it is the responsibility of us all to ensure that they are effectively policed regardless of the consequences for the individual. 

The potential extinction of a species is no trivial matter (for a mountain of reasons) and especially since we are in the midst of mass extinction the like of which has not been seen since Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event, approximately 65.5 million years ago. Only this time man is largely to blame and not nature.


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## Christor

Wow didnt know that most crayfish are banned...I know of a girl who has them but she is from the ROI so obviously laws may differ as to the UK laws and personally im not sure if Ireland even has crayfish

As for those importing or selling to these stores, I would wonder their names and whether they are UK based companies too, as surely the blame could also be thrown onto them?


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## Tim Harrison

Unfortunately there are several alien species of crayfish in our rivers, streams, and lakes etc, but by far the most lethal to our own native white-clawed crayfish is the North American signal crayfish. It was introduced during the 1970s to be  farmed for the dinner plate. Many were subsequently released or escaped in to the wild. 

They impact on populations of our native species in many ways not least are interspecific competition for resources and predation, but the most pervasive impact is caused by crayfish plague; a fungal disease. The signal crayfish is resistant to the disease and a suspected vector. Unfortunately our native species isn't resistant and mortality usually follows within 2 weeks of initial infection as it succumbs to the fungi’s mycotoxins. 

An analogy is the North American grey squirrel which has spread at the expense of our native red squirrel. But these are just two examples of alien introductions that are wreaking havoc on our ecosystems, there are many more. That is why it is illegal under the Wildlife and Countryside Act to introduce non-native species without permission of Natural England and has been since 1981, and before that under the Destructive Imported Animals Act 1932.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> but she is from the ROI so obviously laws may differ as to the UK laws and personally im not sure if Ireland even has crayfish


 Ireland has the same native Crayfish as we do the "White Clawed Crayfish" and it is also protected under ROI law, so I would be surprised it it is legal to keep other Crayfish species in the ROI.

cheers Darrel


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