# AUTO-CLEANING GOLDFISH TANK? Experiment in progress...



## tomw

Hi all,

I'm new here, and this is my first post!

I've been keeping 5 goldfish for about three years now, and they have grown from tiny minnows up to BIG fish, between 6" and 8" in length.

I have increased my tank size several times as they have grown bigger and bigger, and I am now using a Juwel 240 aquarium. Their growth appears to have slowed down a bit now, so it looks like I'll be sticking with the Juwel 240 for a while. Last night I set up a new filtration system, that I hope will make this tank almost maintenance free. Here is what I did:

*The aquarium:*
The aquarium is currently a fish-only set up, but I have attempted to grow plants with the goldfish in the past, with the usual results. Plants dug up / eaten, and the substrate in a constant mess! I have not given up on the idea of a planted tank, as there are a few plant varieties that the goldfish won't eat, but first I wanted to see if I could find a way of setting up the tank so that I could reduce the amount of constant cleaning I need to do in order to clean up after these messy messy creatures!


*Slate Substrate:*
For the last 6 months, I have been using broken slate as a substrate, as the fish can't dig it up or move it around. This was a big improvement over the grit / gravel I was using before. However, the dirt and poo would still get trapped underneath & between the slates, meaning a twice-weekly hoovering & water change was necessary to keep everything clean. So, I thought about the problem, and came up with this experimental solution:


*The experiment:*
I decided to build a false-floor in the tank, below the slate substrate, and add an additional pump / filter to the system. The additional pump circulates a flow underneath the false floor, and the gaps betwen the slates are large enough for the fish mess to drop through, and get swept away into the filter. (See photo of finished system below).







*How I did it:*

*False floor:* I bought a load of Stainless Steel kitchen grills, approximately the right size to line the floor of my tank. The grills 'raise' the floor by approx 25mm.




On top of the flase floor, I placed the slate substrate, leaving gaps bewteen the slates large enough for debris to be drawn down into the filter flow below.




*Filtration:* This is a 2-filter system. 
Filter #1 is an Eheim 2326 that flows under the false floor via a submerged spray-bar. The flow from this submerged spray bar 'sweeps' the area under the false floor towards the suction inlet on the other side of the tank. (The suction inlet sucks from under the flase floor space).




Filter #2 is an Eheim 2224. This feeds its flow in at the top of the tank above the Eheim 2326 submerged spray bar.




The Eheim 2224 also shares the same suction inlet as the Eheim2326 at the bottom of the tank below the false floor. (There is a t-junction outside the tank, splitting the suction flow to the two filters). The reason that both filters share the same suction inlet is that it will create a net flow through the floor, gently sweeping the debris down into the filter flow below.




Outside the tank, there are a pair of 'Vecton V2 300' UV sterilisers, one for each filter. The plumbing has been routed so that either filter can be run independantly of the other, in case one needs to be removed from the system for cleaning / maintenance, leaving the remaining filter running. (I know! The pipework looks a mess, but this is just an experiment. If it works well, I'll re-do the pipework in rigid tube as a permanent installation)




The above photo looks a bit confusing, so here is a flow diagram of the installed system:




*Results so far:*
I only set this up last night, but the initial results look good. I dropped some debris into the tank, and watched it sink and settle onto the slate floor, before eventually being drawn into the crack between the slates, and swept off into the filter. Looking through the glass at the bottom of the tank, it is possible to see into the cavity below the false floor, where you can watch the system working.

The fish do not seem to be unduely bothered by the change in their tank, the flow / current does not appear to be affecting them at all (i.e. they are not getting 'sucked' onto the floor!).

The only immediate problem I can forsee, is that some sinking food may get sucked through the floor before the fish can eat it. I dont think this will be too much of a problem though, as the greedy goldfich usually eat everything i give them before it gets the chance to sink!

*Happy Fish!*





*Whats next?*
I'm sure there will be more changes as time goes on, this is an experiment after all! I'll keep you all posted as to the progress of this system, My next stage is to add some plants, which is what this forum is all about, so watch this space....


TomW


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## Ed Seeley

Very interesting Tom and a great idea.  Think you'd be easily able to add java ferns, anubias and mosses to this tank tied onto rocks (maybe even some of the slate used as substrate - though IME they will need tying permanently with fishing line as they will never stick themselves to somethingas smooth as slate).  Hope the fish enjoy their cleaner home!  Interested in why you run the two UV sterilisers on the tank?


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## Gill

I Like this alot, I think that this system is called and Under Gravel Jet System (to optimise Filtration). 
Great thinking using the Grill Trays to raise the level. 
And Agree that the above plants would work very well.


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## tomw

Hi Ed, Hi Gill,

Thanks for the response guys!

Ed - I'm running two UV sterilisers more by luck than judgement. I originally tried to set this up as a planted tank, by upgrading the lights to a T5 unit, and fitting 2 off Arcadia 54W Plantpro tubes and bunging in a load of plants. However, I learned the hard way that goldfish will dig up anything you try to plant, and without a CO2 system the plants simply cannot thrive enough to sustain the abuse from the goldfish.

So, I took out the dead remains of the plant massacre, and reverted back to a fish-only system until I could think of a better plan of attack. Unfortunately in the meantime, with the high-powered lights and no plants, I soon had a green-water problem, so I bought the first UV steriliser.

Having had a good think about the messy goldfish problem, I decided to try this two-filter / false floor experiment before replanting, so I started looking around for a cheap second filter. I ended up buying a complete second-hand aquarium set-up locally, just because it included an Eheim 2326 filter. When I drove over to pick this second-hand aquarium up, I opened the cupboard, and inside was the second UV steriliser, which was a bit of a suprise. So, I kept the Eheim 2326 filter and UV steriliser, and sold the rest on...

The net result is the two UV units you can see in the photos. Not particularly necessary, but seeing as I had two units at my disposal, I plumbed them both in anyway.


*Goldfish-proof planting plan - Some advice please!*
My plan is that next week I will introduce a few 'Goldfish-proof' plants (tied down firmly!), and a pressurised CO2 system. (Hopefully the plants will grow to a point where I can get rid of the UV sterilisers altogether). 

My 'goldfish-proof' plant list is as follows:

-Anubias
-Microsorum pteropus (Fern)
-Vesicularia (Moss)

I have also been told that Crinum (Onion plant) are also off the menu for Goldfish. I like the long flowing leaves of the Crinum, so I'm keen to include it in my planting plan. However, would I need to grow the Crinum in deep substrate though? For ease of cleaning, my thank is lined with slabs of slate, and not much else... Perhaps I could grow the Crinum in a submerged pot of substrate. Has anybody had any experience of this?

Thanks!

Tom


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## Ed Seeley

tomw said:
			
		

> I have also been told that Crinum (Onion plant) are also off the menu for Goldfish. I like the long flowing leaves of the Crinum, so I'm keen to include it in my planting plan. However, would I need to grow the Crinum in deep substrate though? For ease of cleaning, my thank is lined with slabs of slate, and not much else... Perhaps I could grow the Crinum in a submerged pot of substrate. Has anybody had any experience of this?



I've grown Crypts in submerged pots with great success.  I used garden soil but I think you'd have even better success with Aquasoil and it won't cost too much to get enough for a few pots!  I used terracota pots so the weight held them down and you will need to put large gravel or probably pebbles on the top to stop the goldfish digging in the substrate!  You could use small pond baskets too and silicone slate onto the sides you can see to hide them.

In pots I reckon you might be able to grow some Echinodorus and tougher Crypts too in time.  Maybe start with tougher species and, once they survive, the goldfish might ignore softer ones when they go in!


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## danfinister

hi
I like the idea very much so, maybe using marine egg crate would a been better..our oven grill is going rusty...and thats supposed to be stainless

Just a thought thats all.. great tank btw


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## RudeDogg1

danfinister said:
			
		

> hi
> I like the idea very much so, maybe using marine egg crate would a been better..our oven grill is going rusty...and thats supposed to be stainless
> 
> Just a thought thats all.. great tank btw




Or just an undergravel filter plate lol


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## tomw

Hi All,

Here is a quick update on the experimental self-cleaning Goldfish aquarium:

One week later - The system seems to be working! I have not touched the tank since I set the system running a week ago. There is absolutely *ZERO* fish mess anywhere on the slate floor. I have even been away over the recent bank-holiday weekend, and left a friend to (over)feed the fish while I was away. The tank remained clean throughout.





Last night, looking through the gap under the false floor, there are a few bits and bobs of fish waste caught around the legs of the grill trays, but given time they all get washed away eventually. There was only one big blob that refused to let go, so I lifted up one of the 'paving slabs' and gave it a poke, and is shot off into the filter tube immediately. The big blob was directly under one of the larger 'holes' in the pavement, where two of the larger slabs did not quite meet up.

I have since re-arranged the slate slabs slightly, adding three new larger pieces, and removing several smaller ones. I think that having fewer, well-defined narrow 'cracks' in the pavement, works better than having irregular sized holes filled by smaler pieces of slate. I also think that perhaps having a slightly higher flow rate under the false floor would stop the bits getting caught on the grill legs. The current Eheim 2326 has a flow rate of 950l/hour. Perhaps increasing this to 1200 litres/hour or more would improve matters.

*Goldfish-proof planting*
I have added a couple of large *Microsorum* ferns, and an *Anubia* tied to a piece of bogwood. I am lucky to have the 'Goldfish Bowl' as my LFS, just down the road from me in Oxford, and they have an extremely good variety of plants on offer. I want for large 'mature' plants instead of cuttings, as last time I planted anything the Goldfish destroyed the smallest plants first. I think that starting with large plants will give the flora the best chance of a head-start against the interfering fauna.

The Bogwood - I chose a piece of bogwood that would stand on a couple of isolated 'points' underneath, to try and avoid creating any sheltered areas where the fish-mess might get trapped underneath and avoid the filtration system.





I also bought a *Water Caltrop* (_Trapa natans_) as it looked interesting. These are commonly known as 'Water Chestunts':






Weather or not the Water Caltrop withstands the inquisitive Goldfish remains to be seen. Apparently it should send down a long tap-root to search for the substrate, so I'll have to think about somewhere for this to root in the future. However, as it is, it provides a bit of shade for the Anubia below, and the fish seem to like the cover as well.

*CO2 system*
I have also started to install my DIY pressurised CO2 system, based around a Sodastream bottle. I have posted this in the 'CO2' section, and you can follow the topic here:
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17456

More progress next week - Cheers all!

TomW.

P.S. Seeing as this topic is spreading from Pumps & Filtration to plants, I have started a new 'Goldfish Proof Plants' topic in the 'Plants' discussion section. You can find the topic here:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17458

However, I shall continue to post my progress regarding my pump / filter setup here in this current topic. More progress soon...


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## hellohefalump

Hi I love your goldfish tank. It's so nice to see someone doing it 'properly'.  I keep cranium callimistratum in my discus tank... It is a heavy substrate feeder though so you might run into problems.  Mine are over three foot tall now and they've started splitting into new plants at the bottoms.  When I kept goldfish I had good success with vallis, anubias and Echinodorus species, but again, not sure how they'd do with a slate substrate.  Although, just a thought, might be totally wrong... But maybe if you could get their roots to grow under the false floor they would get nutrients from the fish waste and maybe act as biological filtration aswell?


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## Dan Crawford

This is top banana Tom! A great idea that seems to be working, lovely stuff


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## vauxhallmark

Goldfish will eat the roots off most floating plants, and it looks like they've already had the roots off that!

Salvinia has things which look like roots (but are supposed to be a modified leaf), and are ferns, so probably less palatable. Try them if the water chestnut fails. 

Mark


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## JohnC

Excellent to see a well taken care of set of goldfish for a change. Rather then the "huge fish in tiny bowl" horrors.

Well done. Looks excellent.


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## JohnC

Hi,

Any updates on this? I am about to revamp a friends tragic goldfish tank and this is what I had in mind.

Best Regards,
John


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## doobiw55

Great setup and Lfs, I've not been for a few months but keep meaning to go. Have you visited MA Wheatley? 

Tom


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## tomw

Hi Guys,

I've been away from the forum for a while - but i've been getting requests for an update on how this system is getting on:

Filtration system:
It's been up and running for 10 months now, and its still working fine. The only slight problem was that occasionally lumps of fish mess would get stuck around the legs of the oven grills. This in turn would trap other debris, making it necesssary to go in and poke around. 

In response to this problem I've upgraded both filters to Eheim 2028s, and the extra flow seems to have done the trick. (Tip: For a 4-foot tank, you need at least 900l flow under the floor). 

However, It is not strictly necessary to run two expensive filter units, the under-floor flow could be achieved far more cheaply by using a high flow-rate sump pump (Internal or external). So long as it is sweeping the flow towards a single filter that is capable of handling the amount of waste your fish will generate.


Slate floor:
The slate paving has been a great success. It keeps itself clean, and no mess gets trapped. Green algae tends to grow on the top surface (depending on the lighting cycle). All I do is flip the green slates over, exposing the clean underside. In the meantime, the algae now underneath the slate dies off (lack of light), and the flow cleans the under-surface until it is ready to be flipped again.


Plants:
Complete disaster! The goldfish have consistently torn apart everything I have planted. I've just been replanting new plants as and when the old ones get torn apart. Recently I've had to give the fish an anti-parasite treatment, which meant I had to remove the plants entirely. I've not given up though, and will replant as soon as the tratment is over.


Maintenance:
Weekly : Wipe down the inside of the glass, and do a 20% water change. Thats all.
Every 2 months : Clean out the filters, rinse the media etc. Thats all.


Conclusion:
My initial objective of achieving a low maintenance goldfish aquarium seems to have been achieved. I am pretty pleased that I only have to do a quick wipe down and 20% water change each week. It tend to work away from home for weeks at a time, and I can now do so in the confidence that the aquarium will look after itself until I get back.

In retrospect I could have done it a lot cheaper, by using a high-flow sump-pump for the underfloor flow, rather than an additional filter. I buy most of my gear second hand though, so the components in my system have largely been chosen by whatever used bargains I happen to find locally.


Whats next:
I've recently got an RO unit, and fitted it under my kitchen sink. My aquarium is upstairs, directly over the kitchen, so I am toying with the idea of plumbing in an RO supply upstairs from the kitchen, to save me from lugging bottles of water up the stairs every time I do a water change.

I've also got a surplus PLC unit, and a pneumatic multiple-flow-control valve manifold (I design automated manufacturing systems for a living), so i'm considering making myself a fully programmable automatic water-changer system, complete with salt / stress coat / stress-zyme / melafix dosing...

Add to this an auto-feeder, and a couple of algae-eating snails to keep the glass clean, and I'll have the ultimate set-and-forget goldfish aquarium : )

Cheers!

Tom


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## peaches

I had some fancy goldfish a good few years ago, I used to show a ranchu too.  They were thugs when it came to plants and I ended up with a bare floor and fake plants which I kind of hated.  When I moved a fish club member took them off me.

Now one of my granddaughters has asked for fancy goldfish for her birthday as she remembers the cute ones I kept.  I am looking at your system with interest as I considered slate too, bought a bagful from B and Q but it never got used.    Obviously I have noticed that this is an old thread.  How are the fish?

I used to go into an old fish shop and the man is now on the point of retiring, he looks quite old.  He kept wanting to sell me undergravel filters that he had always used.  Now you have the slate instead of the gravel, so the goldfish dont choke on it.  But they must have worked differently?  The gravel was necessary there as it contained the bacteria and the poop went through the gravel.  But I think your system is a good one.


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## kadoxu

Great project!

I achieved the same results in my Juwel Rio 240 with a big filter (EHEIM Pro4 600) and an air curtain on the background for a bare bottom tank.


 



 

I have the air pump on a timer, so the flow gets reduced and the fish can sleep at night. This is what the bottom looks like in the morning before the air pump turns on.


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## peaches

kadoxu said:


> Great project!
> 
> I achieved the same results in my Juwel Rio 240 with a big filter (EHEIM Pro4 600) and an air curtain on the background for a bare bottom tank.
> View attachment 116098
> 
> View attachment 116097
> 
> I have the air pump on a timer, so the flow gets reduced and the fish can sleep at night. This is what the bottom looks like in the morning before the air pump turns on.
> View attachment 116099


I really like that, and the idea of the air curtain is a good one.  So it goes off at night, and in the morning comes on and wizzes all the poop into circulation for the external intake to take care of.   Is the right hand plant fake?  Do the fancies not eat the floating plants?  I used to move mine across from the tropical and they just used to eat them, but I didnt mind really as they would build up.


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## peaches

tomw said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm new here, and this is my first post!
> 
> I've been keeping 5 goldfish for about three years now, and they have grown from tiny minnows up to BIG fish, between 6" and 8" in length.
> 
> I have increased my tank size several times as they have grown bigger and bigger, and I am now using a Juwel 240 aquarium. Their growth appears to have slowed down a bit now, so it looks like I'll be sticking with the Juwel 240 for a while. Last night I set up a new filtration system, that I hope will make this tank almost maintenance free. Here is what I did:
> 
> *The aquarium:*
> The aquarium is currently a fish-only set up, but I have attempted to grow plants with the goldfish in the past, with the usual results. Plants dug up / eaten, and the substrate in a constant mess! I have not given up on the idea of a planted tank, as there are a few plant varieties that the goldfish won't eat, but first I wanted to see if I could find a way of setting up the tank so that I could reduce the amount of constant cleaning I need to do in order to clean up after these messy messy creatures!
> 
> 
> *Slate Substrate:*
> For the last 6 months, I have been using broken slate as a substrate, as the fish can't dig it up or move it around. This was a big improvement over the grit / gravel I was using before. However, the dirt and poo would still get trapped underneath & between the slates, meaning a twice-weekly hoovering & water change was necessary to keep everything clean. So, I thought about the problem, and came up with this experimental solution:
> 
> 
> *The experiment:*
> I decided to build a false-floor in the tank, below the slate substrate, and add an additional pump / filter to the system. The additional pump circulates a flow underneath the false floor, and the gaps betwen the slates are large enough for the fish mess to drop through, and get swept away into the filter. (See photo of finished system below).
> 
> View attachment 52960
> 
> Have the grills shown any signs of rusting?
> *How I did it:*
> 
> *False floor:* I bought a load of Stainless Steel kitchen grills, approximately the right size to line the floor of my tank. The grills 'raise' the floor by approx 25mm.
> View attachment 52961
> 
> On top of the flase floor, I placed the slate substrate, leaving gaps bewteen the slates large enough for debris to be drawn down into the filter flow below.
> View attachment 52962
> 
> *Filtration:* This is a 2-filter system.
> Filter #1 is an Eheim 2326 that flows under the false floor via a submerged spray-bar. The flow from this submerged spray bar 'sweeps' the area under the false floor towards the suction inlet on the other side of the tank. (The suction inlet sucks from under the flase floor space).
> View attachment 52963
> 
> Filter #2 is an Eheim 2224. This feeds its flow in at the top of the tank above the Eheim 2326 submerged spray bar.
> View attachment 52964
> 
> The Eheim 2224 also shares the same suction inlet as the Eheim2326 at the bottom of the tank below the false floor. (There is a t-junction outside the tank, splitting the suction flow to the two filters). The reason that both filters share the same suction inlet is that it will create a net flow through the floor, gently sweeping the debris down into the filter flow below.
> View attachment 52965
> 
> Outside the tank, there are a pair of 'Vecton V2 300' UV sterilisers, one for each filter. The plumbing has been routed so that either filter can be run independantly of the other, in case one needs to be removed from the system for cleaning / maintenance, leaving the remaining filter running. (I know! The pipework looks a mess, but this is just an experiment. If it works well, I'll re-do the pipework in rigid tube as a permanent installation)
> View attachment 52966
> 
> The above photo looks a bit confusing, so here is a flow diagram of the installed system:
> View attachment 52967
> 
> *Results so far:*
> I only set this up last night, but the initial results look good. I dropped some debris into the tank, and watched it sink and settle onto the slate floor, before eventually being drawn into the crack between the slates, and swept off into the filter. Looking through the glass at the bottom of the tank, it is possible to see into the cavity below the false floor, where you can watch the system working.
> 
> The fish do not seem to be unduely bothered by the change in their tank, the flow / current does not appear to be affecting them at all (i.e. they are not getting 'sucked' onto the floor!).
> 
> The only immediate problem I can forsee, is that some sinking food may get sucked through the floor before the fish can eat it. I dont think this will be too much of a problem though, as the greedy goldfich usually eat everything i give them before it gets the chance to sink!
> 
> *Happy Fish!*
> View attachment 52968
> 
> 
> *Whats next?*
> I'm sure there will be more changes as time goes on, this is an experiment after all! I'll keep you all posted as to the progress of this system, My next stage is to add some plants, which is what this forum is all about, so watch this space....
> 
> 
> TomW


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## kadoxu

peaches said:


> I really like that, and the idea of the air curtain is a good one.  So it goes off at night, and in the morning comes on and wizzes all the poop into circulation for the external intake to take care of.   Is the right hand plant fake?  Do the fancies not eat the floating plants?  I used to move mine across from the tropical and they just used to eat them, but I didnt mind really as they would build up.


Exactly. I just use an extendable bathroom cleaning sponge to clean the glass a few times a month and remove the plastic plants to clean them once the algae that grows on it starts to bug me. Oh... and a 50% water change every week, and a filter clean once a month (I'll need to start doing it more often soon).

The plants in the right are fake (it's a mix of 2 plastic plants), yes. I got the plants idea from an old video in the Solid Gold Aquatics youtube channel and attach them to the glass with 

As for the floaters, they eat the roots and smaller leaves/plants, so I propagate the floaters in other tanks. I regularly add duckweed (they eat it all right away), water lettuce, salvinia natans, and frogbit.

I also added a few planters recently to try to improve water quality a bit:


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## kadoxu

Thought I'd do an update here... since I added the planters with Photos plants I never cleaned the plastic plants again... so even lower maintenance. I haven't cleaned this tank in a month (just the regular water changes and filter cleaning). This is how it looks after a month without cleaning:



 

The plants are growing a lot as well.


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## Edvet

Why the inverted plastic thingy?


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## kadoxu

Edvet said:


> Why the inverted plastic thingy?


To provide a quiet place to sleep and also a hiding spot. If I take it off, they get stuck in the plastic plants all the time, specially the females when mating season is on. It's unsightly I know, but the fish love it. I want to hide it a bit behind the plants, but haven't bothered yet. My excuse is that I'm allowing it to get greener to blend with the plants.


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## Edvet




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