# Some questions



## radar (27 Aug 2012)

Hi, I have a few questions re: co2 kit. Currently using a JBL yeast based system (eco80 set, air stone diffuser currently hidden in my Juwel filter box which I think means I am not getting the best out of the system) and was wondering how to get the best out of it...

* read a few folk talking about using a powerhead to diffuse co2. Could I use a Juwel Venturi set to diffuse my co2? Any risk of it creating a vacuum and pumping yeast mix into the tank?

* diffusers, if above not an option what are opinions on the JBL glass ceramic diffuser? Good, bad or indifferent? (One of my reservations about co2 is ugly visible kit in the tank)

* I suppose pressurised co2 will be on the horizon chez moi sometime, can a co2 cylinder be used horizontally or does it have to stand vertically (will fit in cabinet better horizontally), only really having experience of o2 and entonox gas cylinders I'm sure it would be fine but just thought I'd better ask...

Sure there are loads more things to ask too, thanks in anticipation


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (27 Aug 2012)

Hey Radar, the best way to get carbon into your tank is by pressurised Co2 injection with a solenoid valve fitted.

This enables a consistent supply of co2 that can be upped or turned down, a swell as being turned off completely automatically at night, when Co2 is not required. 

Your alternative to yeast based systems could also include liquid carbons. But Liquid Carbon doesn't go down well with some plant species such as Vallisneria.
Some shrimp species are very intolerant of LC too, such as Crystal Red Shrimp.

Pressurised Co2 bottles contain liquid co2 which gasses off in the bottle, therefor it would be advisable you ran the bottle as per manufacturers instructions, which would be in an upright position.

Cheers,


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## radar (27 Aug 2012)

Sadly too many weapons of mass consumption at my house (4 boys, Mrs Radar) for a pressurised sytem at the moment, so I am limited to my yeast based system. 

Gases - I am a member of my local mountain rescue team and we (and ambulance service) store oxygen and entonox horizontally, we often use them horizontally too, with no adverse gas problems so was just wondering why co2 has to be stood vertically


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (27 Aug 2012)

Oxygen is different, not sure about the other gas you listed.

Oxygen, I believe is always a gas. Therefore there is no liquid in there to come out, meaning you could use an oxygen tank stood on its head and it would be fine.

Co2 however is another matter. When being refilled, it is liquid entering the bottle, not 'gas'. I think, (don't quote me on it) co2 bottles when full are 2/3 liquid & 1/3 gas. Obviously the gas would be at the top, being less dense. 

Therefore the regulator is situated at the top, to use the 'gas' that gasses off from the liquid co2.

If you stood the co2 bottle on its head, you'd be injecting liquid Co2. Which without livestock I would imagine to be ok. But would probably knacker your Reg.


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## wazuck (27 Aug 2012)

As it is in a liquid state in the bottle, using it horizontally runs the risk of liquid co2 entering the regulator that could cause damage to it.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (27 Aug 2012)

I would also look into getting some   'Seachem flourish Excel' or some form of liquid carbon. As if yeast based system proves too fiddly to get right, you could always dose Flourish excel/ liquid carbon daily.

Using a yeast based system, you'd have to potentially take out at night and put back in the morning. 

All dependant on how you want to run it.


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## ian_m (28 Aug 2012)

Quite a bit of "wrongness" above. Here is a cut away of a CO2 fire extinguisher, notice the dip tube into the liquid CO2 (normally 2/3 full of liquid CO2 at 55bar pressure).





When used as a fire extinguisher, you are releasing liquid CO2 into the "horn" which due to the sudden pressure reduction, from 55bar to 1bar, the liquid immediately boils to gas which puts out the fire.

However when used with an aquarium, you are using such a small rate of CO2, compared to when putting a fire out (think about it, putting fire out uses 2kg CO2 in 60 seconds as opposed to 6 months for fish) that the CO2 turns to gas in the dip tube.

Thus I suspect is doesn't matter which way up you use a CO2 fire extinguisher for aquarium use. If you need higher gas flow, ie have lots and lots of tanks, then a pub gas CO2 is the way to go. This has no dip tube and takes the CO2 from the top of the cylinder.


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## wazuck (28 Aug 2012)

Interesting. I always assumed that it didn't have the tube. Thanks for clearing that up. I believe some paintball tanks are the same?


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## geoffbark (28 Aug 2012)

As ian m says,

I use the pub type (gas) as i only want gas to enter my reg. Some regs are not designed for liquid use. 

As wazuck says, 

paintballers used to use CO2 and run around a field banging and dropping them etc.

as for storage, I would not store them on their sides or upside down. They have a flat bottom for this reason. And if you look at the safe working practices for storage and usage of CO2 it will tell you to use upright.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (28 Aug 2012)

ian_m said:
			
		

> Quite a bit of "wrongness" above. Here is a cut away of a CO2 fire extinguisher, notice the dip tube into the liquid CO2 (normally 2/3 full of liquid CO2 at 55bar pressure).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




People claim to be advised against using an FE without first removing the Dip tube for that very reason Ian.

I don't know the score as I don't use FE. 

I'm sure if you asked JBL about running a Co2 unit on its head, they will tell you no way.


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## geoffbark (28 Aug 2012)

Whitey you are right

thats why i said that some regs are not designed for liquid


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## ian_m (28 Aug 2012)

geoffbark said:
			
		

> Whitey you are right
> 
> thats why i said that some regs are not designed for liquid


No CO2 gas regulators are designed for liquid. But as I said, you are using such a miniscule amount of gas, even if you opened your regulator fully, I doubt you would ever get liquid CO2 in the regulator, as any liquid passing up the dip tube would immediately meet rather a lot of metal work (valve, pipes tank neck etc) at room temp and be instantly turned to gas. When setting my system up I ran with some "monsterous" bubble rates in my bubble checker (blowing all the water out the bubble checker) and suffered no problems with "liquid CO2" in the regulator.

I think liquid CO2 getting into an aquarium CO2 regulator on a fire exthinguisher is a complete non issue in normal use.

Also enough people run fire extinguisher CO2 systems and I don't see any reports of frozen regulators. (maybe they all died from CO2 explosions and have therefore not reported on UKAPs  )


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## geoffbark (28 Aug 2012)

Radar

I am going to tell you to err on the side of cation,Just because lots of people use a FE setup does not make it safe!

FE's have a tube inside as mentioned to draw liquid CO2 up and out at a great rate. 

Modifying anything against the manufactures recomendations is not advisable.

Getting liquid co2 into a regulator meant for gas will freeze the reg, and could result in liquid being passed to the low pressure side of the reg, expanding quickly producing high pressure and blowing.

If you want to use a FE, de gas it first, remove the tube and refill.

Ian_m 

is right in saying the likly hood of getting liquid to the reg at the small flow rate we use on our tanks is next to non. But it is higher on a FE with tube.

One final note, back to the paintballers, remember they also used anti siphon tubes in their tanks to stop liquid transfer to reg and gun.

Use your own common sense when dealing with high pressure gasses.


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## ian_m (29 Aug 2012)

geoffbark said:
			
		

> One final note, back to the paintballers, remember they also used anti siphon tubes in their tanks to stop liquid transfer to reg and gun.


Again not quite if I remember, no tubes in the paint ball CO2 cylinders.

Originally paint ball used CO2 cylinders, but most were single shot guns and liquid CO2 in works was never a problem as liquid just instantly turned to gas and gun worked. However with multiple shot automatic guns (invented solely to use 10p a go ammo in my opinion) CO2 could not evaporate fast enough when fired fast (ice on cylinder) and did cause issues when liquid entered the regulator ie you fired with white cloud appearing. This gave a rather large range of variability from correct high speed fire to slight pop, shot leaves gun drops on floor and cloud of CO2 mist.

Because of this most paint ballers use compressed air now as give consisent shots with automatic guns.

Remember aquatic fire extinguisher users are using CO2 at such a low rate, even when regulator valve is fully open, I very much doubt liquid would ever enter the regulator and would certainly always be gas entering the regulator.


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## geoffbark (29 Aug 2012)

Ian_m 

We are going to have to agree to disagree here!

I'm going to suggest to the OP and anyone else don't use an FE unless the tube has been removed.

After speaking to the fire safety officer at work who is regulated by the FIA, it is not advisable to allow liquid CO2 into your reg.

The cost of a pub style co2 cylinder is only £25 



			
				ian_m said:
			
		

> Again not quite if I remember, no tubes in the paint ball CO2 cylinders.




http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/antisiphon/

Thats the paintball lesson over, i now need to head down to SWAT at the weekend for some capture the flag!!    haven't played in years


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## ian_m (30 Aug 2012)

geoffbark said:
			
		

> http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/antisiphon/
> 
> Thats the paintball lesson over, i now need to head down to SWAT at the weekend for some capture the flag!!    haven't played in years


My paint ball canister was vertical thus no anti-syphon need, but a bulkier gun. Moved on to other things just as compressed air was starting to be used.


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