# Can an external canister filter be run with a separate pump? :-)



## Zak Rafik

Hi guys,
Need your advice / input for my planted tank.

I have read many posts here where having the spray bar length wise, especially for big tanks (pointing back to front of tank) creates:
1. Better flow in the tank
2. More efficient distribution of nutrients to plants.
3. More efficient distribution of Co2
4. Less Co2 need to get the DC to the lime green colour.
5. The tank doesn't end up looking like a washing machine in spin cycle.

I maybe wrong but I think I may be having flow problems in my tank. All my stem plants are getting leggy and the stems are thin.

I have searched all over the net ( just kidding) and spoken to a few LFS and they all sing in unison: MORE LIGHTS! MORE LIGHTS! MORE LIGHTS! YOU NEED MORE LIGHTS!
(Is this what Clive a.k.a.ceg4048  fondly refers to as THE MATRIX?)

But only here in UKAPS, do the gurus/experts say : FLOW! DISTRIBUTION! 

Just for laughs: a LFS today advised me: "You need more potassium! The best product is ADA's Brighty K only!" 

Anyway, my carpet and midground plants which are doing OK (not great either) but background plants are leggy with thin stems (please see photo taken).
Inspite of using the powerhead for better flow, background plants don't have that gentle back and forth movement. Only the middle plants are moving about madly.

I'm planning to run my 2 canister filters with 2 separate spray bars placed lengthwise on the back  of the tank .
I intend to attach an Eheim Universal pump 2400 (stated flow 2400L/h) to the Eheim 600 (2075) *BUT *with the impeller taken out of the ext canister.
Please see the diagram I drew below.

OK now the big question is: 
Is this possible? Can the canister 600 still function without the impeller inside it  and with a separate pump doing all the pulling and pushing of water.
As I intend to have the pump outside the tank along with my other 2 canister filters in my cabinet, will the Eheim pump generate too much heat and vibration noise?
If I have too much flow, can it be slowed down using a flow controller tap?
Which is the best position to have the Eheim pump in the flow path?

Below are my tank's details.
4 feet / 120cm
Age of tank: 8 months
Actual volume: 290 litres / 76 US gallon
Mid to heavy planted.
EI fertilization(3x a week).
     With additional 1 teaspoon of potassium phosphate (3x a week) for the past 2 months.
Substrate: ADA Aqua soil.
Water change: 50% once a week.
Using chiller ( temp @ 25 c).
No liquid carbon dosed.

Photoperiod.
      Total: 6 hours.
      50% intensity for 3 hours from lights on and then the remaining 3 hours with 100% intensity.

Pressurized Co2
    1. Two separate Co2 diffusers-
        a. Inline diffuser (Intense brand).
        b. Intank diffuser (70mm - Intense brand).

    2. Co2 switched ON 3 hours before lights ON
    3. DC near to lime green when lights on.
    4. Using 5 litre cylinder in 30 to 35 days! (crazy right?)
    5. Co2 BBS : uncountable / crazy / mind boggling etc etc....

Algae:
    1.GSA : on front glass (not severe).
    2.BBA : on the rise.
    3.Hair algae: NIL.
    4.BGA : very small patches near substrate level but 70 - 80% gone.
    6.Using Easy Life's Algae Exit for the past 3 weeks for BBA but no improvement at all. IMO this product is snake oil.

Fish: moderate population but all healthy and happy.

Filtration:
Eheim Ext canister 1200XL (2080).
Stated flow: 1700L/h but actual flow maybe about 60% only. Inline Co2 diffuser attached.

Eheim Ext canister 600 (2075).
Stated flow: 1250L/h but actual flow is maybe about 40% only as chiller is attached and flow is slowed down quite significantly..

Powerhead : Turbelle nanostream 6045. (stated flow rate: 1500L/h which I severely doubt.)
Currently all spray bars and powerhead pointing horizontally to the other side of the tank (left to right).

Prefered turnover rate in tank: 10X volume (290Lt X 10= 2900)
Estimated flow (can be lower, maybe?)
    Eheim 2080: 1000L/h
    Eheim 2075: 500L/h
    Powerhead: stated 1500L/h ( but as mentioned above, I doubt it).

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post and for your effort in providing me your experiences and inputs. Much appreciated.

Cheers


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Eheim-filter-position_zpscc810531.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/leggy-plants_zpsdfb725f9.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/maxresdefault_zps77f64ade.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/8396953793_920569535d_c_zpsa1623c7c.jpg


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## ian_m

1. The pump in a canister filer is usually in the output so it pumps clean(er) water, generally pulls through a larger opening ie 50mm than it pushes out eg 16mm piping
2. The 1260 is 28mm inlet 18mm out (notice the bigger inlet than outlet) and 2075 is 16mm piping, that is 3rd reduction is cross section, the pump will not be happy having its inlet massively restricted, possibly cavitating and seriously reducing the impellor life (and noisy). 
3. The 2075 is designed for 500l/hr pushing (actually pulling) more water through is probably not good, may be noisy, wont filter very well and probably collapse and filter foams in it. 
4. Addition of a chiller reducing flow even further won't help either.
5. Another 2080 (or bigger) would be the proper way to do it without any issues. (JBL e1501 at 1500l/hr ?)

You could just it and see, but you will require some interesting pipe sizes and "flow reducing" pipe reducers to connect it all together...

Other options, do without the 500l filter just have a pumped chiller loop (and CO2 ????).


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## Zak Rafik

ian_m said:


> The 1260 is 28mm inlet 18mm out (notice the bigger inlet than outlet) and 2075 is 16mm piping, that is 3rd reduction is cross section, the pump will not be happy having its inlet massively restricted, possibly cavitating and seriously reducing the impellor life (and noisy).


OK, I must have missed out that part when I looked at the 1260 pump. Thanks.

Or the other option might be to run the 2075 with no media/ filter floss in all 4 trays. Now it has only coarse sponge at the bottom 1st and 2nd trays, fine filter floss in 3rd tray and a bag of Purigen in the 4th tray.

Anyway do you think the leggy stem plants are due to not enough flow?
Cheers


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## ceg4048

Zak Rafik said:


> Anyway do you think the leggy stem plants are due to not enough flow?


Yes.

Cheers,


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## Edvet

Seeing your scheme/drawing: maybe it's better to have the spraybars all on the backpane of the tank, let all the flow go in the same direction, thus helping each other.


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## Zak Rafik

Edvet said:


> Seeing your scheme/drawing: maybe it's better to have the spraybars all on the backpane of the tank, let all the flow go in the same direction, thus helping each other.


Hi
That's what I plan to do.


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## Zak Rafik

If I'm able to find a pump of other brands and the hose pipe size is the same as the Eheim 16/22 hose, is it still possible to run the canister with the impeller taken out?

The Eheim pump costs $185 and a new  Eheim filter 2080 costs $595.


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## ceg4048

Yes, you can take the impeller out and run an external pump. The plastic bucket does not care.

Cheers,


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## Zak Rafik

ian_m said:


> Other options, do without the 500l filter* just have a pumped chiller loop (and CO2 ????)*.


That would be good too. But won't the pump be pulling in unfiltered tank water along with debris and stuff into the chiller and  messing up the chiller's coils?


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## Zak Rafik

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, you can take the impeller out and run an external pump. The plastic bucket does not care


Hi
The Eheim 2075's manufacturer's stated flow is 1250 Litres / hour. The main drawback in my setup is the chiller which is severely slowing down the flow. In your opinion what's the maximum pump flow can I attach to the 2075 without causing the filter foams to collapse as stated by ian_m (post no #2).


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## ian_m

Zak Rafik said:


> In your opinion what's the maximum pump flow can I attach to the 2075 without causing the filter foams to collapse as stated by ian_m (post no #2).


It would be 500l/hr as the manufacture designed. To get more flow successfully through it needs to be bigger, there is a certain range of values of flow per unit cross sectional area that filters are built for. Any less than this, the manufacturer could make filter smaller any higher than this you pull the dirt through the foam.

You will just have to try it and see.

Juwel offer various sized pump heads for their internal filters, 400l/hr, 600l/hr & 1000l/hr. The problem with the bigger flow ones is foam starts blocking and collapsing under the suction, especially using the older Juwel proprietary foams, and starts damaging the pump head impellor (the shaft wears). However I now have a 600l/hr with non Juwel foams, that don't appear to collapse so easily, and the latest pump head with ceramic shaft and not suffered any of the issues I suffered from years ago.


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## Zak Rafik

OK here is the update. Hopefully the changes done to my tank will bring about some awesome positive changes.

I tried to find an external pump but was not able to find a good quality one with 16/22 hose size. So I decided to bite the bullet and got myself another Eheim 1200XL (2080).
As for the older Eheim 2075, I have brainwashed a friend of mine to take it at a good price.

So now, I have hooked up the new 2080 to the chiller. As the chiller will slow down the flow no matter how strong the filter's pump is, I've shortened the spray bar to compensate for the loose in flow.
The original Eheim spray bar set comes with only 3 separate bars. I had an Eheim gravel cleaner which had the same connection size ( saved some $$). I simply drilled some holes as per the layout in the original spray bar.

As there are now 2 massive canister filters, I split the filter media for the filters so as not to slow the flow further.
The bottom tray has coarse sponge, the second tray has fine filter floss and the top tray has some Biohome sintered glass media and 200 grams of Purigen in each 2080.

I also found something interesting while cleaning the old Eheim 2080. I found out that the flow indicator inside the 2080 was actually blocking or slowing down the flow of water quite a bit. Please see the photo below to get a better picture.

My immediate observations.
1.
The water flow from the spray bars were not as good as what I saw in ceg4048 / Clive's tank ( see post # 1). I don't know if making the holes in the spray bar bigger will strengthen or weaken the flow. I'm kind of confused on this matter.
But I do notice there was no washing machine style flow in the tank which I got with a power head. Now ALL the plants are now gently swaying about which is a good indicator.......I suppose.

2.
The fish and shrimps are swimming in all corners of the tank. They are more spread out now.
Previously with the powerhead at full blast, the fish would either be at the bottom with the plants or in corners where there is less flow. Feeding the fish was a tedious task then.
The food flakes would be all over the tank.

3.
During the past few days, the plants at the lower level are growing at a fast rate. I'll update on this as and when there is progress.
After more than 3 months, my Staurogyne Repens are growing new shoots and side roots. 
My Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides' is actually growing. Previously whenever I replanted a stem cutting, within 4 to 5 days all the leaves would melt away with only the top remaining.
Often the whole stem would melt and float in the tank. Now not a single leaf has come out and the best part is that its producing side roots.

4.
Now the main issue. Co2 distribution.
At first there was An In-tank diffuser near to the bottom of the tank and an inline diffuser attached to the old Eheim 2080. But with this setup I noticed that Co2 microbubbles from the inline diffuser was spread more evenly due to the spray bar's length. There was uneven spread of Co2 bubbles from the in-tank diffuser.
Therefore I hooked up my spare inline diffuser to the new Eheim 2080. Now the microbubbles are spread evenly throughout the tank. Thanks to ceg4048 / Clive's idea.

5.
One huge advantage (at least for me) was that I can actually use the microbubbles from the inline diffuser to see / make out the actual flow from the spray bars.
The bubbles would shoot from the spray bar towards the front of the tank and then go downwards towards the substrate and travel along the floor and make the journey upwards at the back of the tank. As the flow has to travel a short distance, any hard scapes or woods would not halt the microbubbles in its path. Previously, the layout of the rocks and woods would determine the flow path as the flow had to travel a longer path ( from left to right side) and thereby lose much momentum and be weakened by the time it reaches the other end of the tank.

6.
The only problem I face now is that as I'm using 2 inline diffusers, even a slight turn of the knob, injects too much Co2. Yesterday I managed to save my whole collection of fish in the tank in the nick of time.
All the fish were gasping for air after 4 hours after Co2 was switched on ( which is a 1st time ever since the tank was set up 8 months ago)
Now I'm turning up the gas upwards 1 or 2 bubbles a day and observing the fish.
I notice I need to spend less Co2 bubbles now. Before this, the bubble count was crazy and yet have many of my plants melting away.

7.
The only plant that is not indicating any positive change is Ludwigia palustris.Maybe I should give it some time.

I'm apologize for this lengthy post. I would very much appreciate if the fellow members can give me more pointers on any improvements I can make to the setup. Thanks in advance.
I'll keep this post updated after a few days.
Cheers.

P.S: I got many ideas and inspirations from : ceg4048-Clive / ian_m / parotet / foxfish / Tom Barr / Martin in China. Thank you guys


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/2-Eheims-2080-added-JPG_zps8fea5946.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Eheims-2080-added-to-chiller-JPG_zpsd2205620.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Eheims-2080-direct-to-tank-JPG_zps855c3a24.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/2-Eheims-2080-with-spray-bar-jpg_zps7cca925b.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...low-indicater-dismanteled-jpg_zpsce42c2ff.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...-flow-indicater-taken-out-jpg_zps6d63f790.jpg


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## ian_m

Zak Rafik said:


> The only problem I face now is that as I'm using 2 inline diffusers, even a slight turn of the knob, injects too much Co2. Yesterday I managed to save my whole collection of fish in the tank in the nick of time.
> All the fish were gasping for air after 4 hours after Co2 was switched on ( which is a 1st time ever since the tank was set up 8 months ago)
> Now I'm turning up the gas upwards 1 or 2 bubbles a day and observing the fish.
> I notice I need to spend less Co2 bubbles now. Before this, the bubble count was crazy and yet have many of my plants melting away.


You will have completely uncontrollable CO2 if you are running two diffusers from one needle valve, as you have found. The CO2 will take the route of least resistance and basically vent only via one diffuser in completely uncontrollable rates. Each diffuser must have its own needle valve as in my picture below...


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## Edvet

Why do you keep a fish in your bubblecounter


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## parotet

Edvet said:


> Why do you keep a fish in your bubblecounter


Every time I see this drawing I also have this question 

Jordi


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## Andy Thurston

ian_m said:


> You will have completely uncontrollable CO2 if you are running two diffusers from one needle valve, as you have found. The CO2 will take the route of least resistance and basically vent only via one diffuser in completely uncontrollable rates. Each diffuser must have its own needle valve as in my picture below...


Looking at pics there are 2 needle valves 2 bubble counters not sure which order there in though. Does sound like better needle valves are needed or maybe OP could maybe get away with one diffuser.
The best way is 2 regulators. you can buy splitters to fit both onto one cylinders but it will need to be secured.


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## ian_m

A fish shop near me feeds CO2 to loads of tanks from a single 45Kg FE located outside. Regulator on FE feeds a single pipe (copper outside, plastic inside) which then goes round the tanks with a T splitter at each tank leading to a needle valve, one way valve and bubble counter located on the side of the tank. They have good control at each tank with no interference between tanks. Some tanks are marine with CO2 controllers.


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## Zak Rafik

Hi guys,


ian_m said:


> Each diffuser must have its own needle valve as in my picture below...


Actually that's how it is set up. Maybe the photo's angel did not show this clearly. I have another photo. Please see below.
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Co2-split_zpse090000c.jpg

Also as mention about Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides', below are the photos taken when I had major Co2 and flow problem in tank during Nov 2014. Most of my plant were simply melting away.
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...-aromatica-hippuroides-melted_zps564ed1fc.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums...aromatica-hippuroides-healthy_zps251ed112.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/Plantedtankon20Feb2015_zps8ed7ff76.jpg

The only problem I'm having now is getting the DC to be lime green before lights on. I have tried for the past few days to increase the bubble count very lightly so to find the sweet spot for Co2. 

But I find the DC to be lime green only after 3 hours after lights on and remains lime green for 2 to 3 hours after lights off. Can someone comment on this? 

About 10 days ago my LED light's LEDs staret to dimm very badly. I have returned them to the LFS and he gave me a T5 on loan until the LED is repaired.

The specs of the light set is as below:
4 pcs of T5s at 54 watts each 12000K

But I'm running only 2 T5s. That means 108 watts for 120 cm/4 feet (76 gallons) tank for 6 hours. Is this enough light? 

I find running T5s more easier than LEDs. LEDs have to tweaked for intensity and colour, whereas T5s are more straight forward.


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## Zak Rafik

I'm trying to get the same type of bubble counter so as to syn the bubble count but so far the LFS don't have stock.


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## Zak Rafik

I don't know what's happening. 
Inspite of improving flow with 2 Eheim 2080, since yesterday my tank is having BBA very very badly. I have not seen BBA this bad and grow so quickly in my tank since it was set up.
I have upped the Co2 bubble count like before ( uncountable ) and yet DC stay blue green or dark green.
I'm lost on what to do next.

Do I need to add GH boosters to help Co2?
 I already have 1 kg of coral chips in the canister for the past 8+ months


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## Rahms

Sudden outbreak of BBA after changing your light? To me that sounds like the new light is more powerful, can you raise it?

May well be that you can't provide enough CO2 to keep up with the amount needed under the new light, rather than your CO2 having a new issue. Might be worth a quick leak check at some point, but I'd definitely focus on the one definite change that has coincided with the issue, and play with the light.


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## Zak Rafik

Rahms said:


> Sudden outbreak of BBA after changing your light? To me that sounds like the new light is more powerful, can you raise it?
> 
> May well be that you can't provide enough CO2 to keep up with the amount needed under the new light, rather than your CO2 having a new issue. Might be worth a quick leak check at some point, but I'd definitely focus on the one definite change that has coincided with the issue, and play with the light.


Hi,
Thanks for reading my post.
I don't think the BBA is due to light in my opinion.
The specs of the T5 light set is as below:
4 pcs of *T5s at 54 watts each 12000K*

But* I'm running only 2 T5s. That means 108 watts for 120 cm/4 feet (76 gallons) tank for 6 hours. 
That works out to 1.40 watts per gallon and  this is actually considered low.*
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/wattspergallon_zps4f4024f6.png




Rahms said:


> Might be worth a quick leak check at some point,


I have checked many timse using soapy water but none so far.

The main problem for me now is that however much I increase the Co2 rate, the DC doesn't change to lime green. I'm now seeing again some plants melting again 
Now I'm afraid to increase the light and get more algae problem.


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## Rahms

First off, watts per gallon is only a good measure if you're both talking about the same type of light.  From what I've seen it generally refers to T8? 1 watt of T8 is not the same as 1 watt of T5 (1 watt T5 should be more light).

Melt as far as I am aware is caused by your plant not being able to keep up (by growing/repairing) with the damage being caused by the light. If your plant can't keep up in low light, its most likely a flow/CO2 problem. If pumping infinite CO2 isnt changing your drop checker, then it must be flow which is your problem.

As (I think) I said before, its about balance of CO2/nutrients/light.  If you have low light, your plants will require little CO2 and nutrients, and so poor flow may not cause issues. If you up the light, the demand for CO2 increases. In your case it seems to have increased beyond your supply, and hence you get melt and algae.


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## Zak Rafik

Rahms said:


> From what I've seen it generally refers to T8? 1 watt of T8 is not the same as 1 watt of T5 (1 watt T5 should be more light).


I don't know about that. The internet is full of #@*&%# ! They don't seem to be specific. 
Maybe some experienced members can give more info.
I don't why suddenly why the members here are keeping quiet. Usually they are active.



Rahms said:


> If pumping infinite CO2 isnt changing your drop checker, then it must be flow which is your problem.


If you have read the first few posts in this thread, You will know that I have fixed 2 Eheim 2080s (1200XL) for a 4 feet tank. Isn't this enough? I'm sure many people here will think this is an overkill for a 4 feet tank. But I'm desperate to improve the flow in the tank.

To the truth I'm getting very frustrated with this hobby. I'm having problems after problems ever since Sept 2014. The most severe is plants melting and BBA.
A hobby is something one enjoys and looks forward to but it my case it seems to be the opposite.
Now I have given myself the end of April. If I see no progress, I have decided to get out this hobby. I have spent a lot of money and time on the tank and  I have had enough of disappointments and changing items in the tank just to grow plants and fish.

Thanks


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## Rahms

Zak Rafik said:


> I don't know about that. The internet is full of #@*&%# ! They don't seem to be specific.
> Maybe some experienced members can give more info.
> I don't why suddenly why the members here are keeping quiet. Usually they are active.
> 
> 
> If you have read the first few posts in this thread, You will know that I have fixed 2 Eheim 2080s (1200XL) for a 4 feet tank. Isn't this enough? I'm sure many people here will think this is an overkill for a 4 feet tank. But I'm desperate to improve the flow in the tank.
> 
> To the truth I'm getting very frustrated with this hobby. I'm having problems after problems ever since Sept 2014. The most severe is plants melting and BBA.
> A hobby is something one enjoys and looks forward to but it my case it seems to be the opposite.
> Now I have given myself the end of April. If I see no progress, I have decided to get out this hobby. I have spent a lot of money and time on the tank and  I have had enough of disappointments and changing items in the tank just to grow plants and fish.
> 
> Thanks



I think people keep quiet on the threads where they have to convince the poster of the problem.  There are loads of threads where someone asks their problem, is given the answer (CO2), and then has to be told over and over before they accept it.

I know its very annoying, I also quit a while ago and am just picking it up again. But if plants are melting, they most likely dont have enough CO2 for their conditions.  So you can either go back to the conditions that worked (i.e. lower light equivalent to your LED), or increase CO2 concentration. You seem to be looking at all of your issues as one source, when your tank was actually doing well on the 20th, and then you immediately changed something (out of your control) and encountered new issues.

If you are increasing the injection of your CO2 massively and seeing no change in concentration, then this clearly shows a problem and there absolutely isn't another thing you should be looking at or thinking of. You said you leak checked multiple times, so the gas is being put in to the water.  If adding CO2 in to your water doesnt increase the CO2 concentration, then its either all being used up (demand > supply) or just venting off at the surface.  Your setup is obviously very complicated because you have two of everything, with the chiller making one system far weaker, and as such its difficult to get right. But to reiterate, IT SEEMS YOU HAD IT RIGHT ON THE 20TH.

Good luck anyways!


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## ian_m

Rahms said:


> From what I've seen it generally refers to T8? 1 watt of T8 is not the same as 1 watt of T5 (1 watt T5 should be more light)


Original EI research was done with T5 lights.


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## mlongpre

Afaik the Par value of lights should be used instead of watts, no? There are many charts and graphs out there that will help you determine roughly how much par you are running at the substrate level. Anything over 50 par at substrate is overkill imho and will lead to co2 issues if it's not spot on.


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## Zak Rafik

Rahms said:


> But to reiterate, IT SEEMS YOU HAD IT RIGHT ON THE 20TH.


Exactly. Maybe I'm now in panic mode. 

The thing that really baffles me was that when I installed the 2 filters, the Co2 was so high that I had to reduce the Co2 as the fish were all gasping. After that I'm not able to get the DC to be lime green. 



Rahms said:


> I know its very annoying, I also quit a while ago and am just picking it up again.


Well it kind of comforting to know that I'm not the only person going through this. Thanks.



Rahms said:


> You said you leak checked multiple times,


I even did one this afternoon. Nothing found.

BTW I know this may sound silly but does 12000K light spectrum cause algae. I have read many post on the net that says 12000K is more for reef and that there is not much the plants can use from this.
Do you know any reliable source on the net about T5s for planted tank.



Rahms said:


> Good luck anyways!


Thanks. I need loads of it now.


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## Rahms

ian_m said:


> Original EI research was done with T5 lights.



is that where his picture/list of wattages and their "classifications" are from? I thought the point of EI was to provide unlimited nutrients for any conceivable growth rate, I don't see where classifying WPG for any particular source comes in... granted its been a while since I read up on EI so its very possible I'm missing your point

back to zak: it is very strange and I think it'll have to be one of the more experienced lot that helps you out. I'm stumped my friend


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## Zak Rafik

ian_m said:


> Original EI research was done with T5 lights.


Hi ian
Sorry but I don't understand what you mean. Can you please explain further? Thanks.


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## ian_m

Zak Rafik said:


> Sorry but I don't understand what you mean. Can you please explain further? Thanks.


The original EI research the Watts/gallon (US liquid gallon) was watts from T5 tubes.

T8 do produce less lumens per watt (no a lot T5 85lm/W and T8 65lm/W) , but the main advantage of T5 is in the lumens per unit length. T5 is 40lm/cm and T8 20lm/cm, meaning moving to T5 from T8 can double the light fro the same tank (actually slightly less as T5's lengths are a bit shorter than nearest T8 size).


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## Zak Rafik

ian_m said:


> The original EI research the Watts/gallon (US liquid gallon) was watts from T5 tubes.
> 
> T8 do produce less lumens per watt (no a lot T5 85lm/W and T8 65lm/W) , but the main advantage of T5 is in the lumens per unit length. T5 is 40lm/cm and T8 20lm/cm, meaning moving to T5 from T8 can double the light fro the same tank (actually slightly less as T5's lengths are a bit shorter than nearest T8 size).



What about T5 HO?

So is the below chart for T5?
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/wattspergallon_zps4f4024f6.png


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## Zak Rafik

OK, an update.
I have since 5 days ago, connected the chiller to a separate pump.
So now the 2 Eheim 2080s are connected  direct to tank and more flow. (1500 Litres per hour X 2 = 3000 Lt / hr)

But the plants are not doing so great. Whatever progress they made during the past few week is now done. 

I have tried to increase the Co2 slowly and I think I have hit the maximum. This morning all the fish were at the surface gasping.
But the DC told a different story. It was showing green.

Its only when I placed a folded piece of paper behind the DC did I see the true colour of the DC. It was lime green.
So it seems that the 12000K colour (bluish colour) from the T5 HO was altering the actual colour in the DC.

Now that I have hit the maximum for Co2, I'll now try to turn down very slowly. 


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1832_zpsbisan2dt.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1830_zpsinl4qa0t.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1831_zpsjjue3zod.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1828_zpsb1hfrjyb.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1829_zpsca6diu88.jpg


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## Zak Rafik

It happened this morning again despite turning down the Co2. But this time only some fish were gasping.
All the fish were not interested in feeding at all. I'll turn down the Co2 lightly.

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1853_zpsyztp2a53.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1852_zpsikqcikuc.jpg


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## Edvet

Does the filter produce a lot of surface movement? At night CO2 is produced by the plants, having plenty surface movement helps degassing the surplus (and increase O2 uptake a bit). This can be done with a nighttime functioning airpump too.


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## Zak Rafik

Edvet said:


> Does the filter produce a lot of surface movement? At night CO2 is produced by the plants, having plenty surface movement helps degassing the surplus (and increase O2 uptake a bit). This can be done with a nighttime functioning airpump too.



Hi
I'm not sure but the spray bars are horizontally positioned. Maybe I'll take a video and upload tomorrow. 
I'hv also taken off the Eheim surface skimmer. Does the skimmer play any major part in degassing?

Does the gassing at night play any role in the next day's Co2 level? (Silly question I think.)


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## ian_m

Zak Rafik said:


> Does the skimmer play any major part in degassing


Yes anything that causes agitation with air will result in CO2 degassing. I have noticed my drop checker more blue'y green that green yellow (ie less CO2) when I have left my spray bars pointing upwards causing a large amount of surface agitation.

I use an air pump to degas at night, which is does, but has two other advantages. I got a surface film when first starting my tank and air pump got rid of that and it also creates a different pattern of water movement picking up those settled bits of detritus into water column to be filtered away.


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## kirk

Too much light.  is what causes bba in our sons low tech tank. It's full of the stuff, but he like the natural look.


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## Zak Rafik

OK. I have tried all that I can think of to improve Co2 level in the tank. Day by day BBA was spreading more.
I even removed the centerpiece of my tank, a nicely shaped rock about 45cm. It was covered with BBA and GSA as you can see from the photo of it while it was in the tank. I was shocked to see the state of the plants behind the rock. I've removed them as well (please see the 3rd photo)

Even after removing the stones, I did not see any significant improvement in the plants' health. So I have decided to remove the spray bars! The spray bars were such an eyesore. I hated it every time I looked at my tank.
Here's a small video I made of the tank before taking off the spray bars.


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1866_zpsd14qsrlf.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1872_zpswfx7byrt.jpg
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_1875_zpsjaoygtto.jpg


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## Rahms

that was a really nice tank, I think you're just focusing on the "perfect" result of 0 algae, all plants 100% in all places.  All I see is a small patch of algae next to a big rock (understandable), and a lot of happy looking plants in a nice scape!


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## Zak Rafik

Rahms said:


> that was a really nice tank, I think you're just focusing on the "perfect" result of 0 algae, all plants 100% in all places.  All I see is a small patch of algae next to a big rock (understandable), and a lot of happy looking plants in a nice scape!


Thanks
But as you can see from the last photo, the plants at the back were badly hit due to insufficient Co2. BBA was spreading more and more. I had taken some close up videos of the plants and BBA but after I switched to the new setup, I decided not to upload it.
Cheers


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## alto

Looking forward to the new setup ... fish movement seems a bit odd in the video, so will be interesting to see if fish behavior changes.

Do you have your LED lights back yet?

What is your tap water like (or are you using RO)?


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## Zak Rafik

alto said:


> Looking forward to the new setup ... fish movement seems a bit odd in the video, so will be interesting to see if fish behavior changes.



Don't mind those guys. They behave like kittens when I'm near the tank.. After the new setup I do notice the Otos and especially the shrimps coming out into the open even during lights on.



alto said:


> Do you have your LED lights back yet?


Nope. The LFS is dragging its feet on this issue. Now I'm running on T5 (12000K, 3 pcs @54watts). But the plants are pearling good with the new setup. If the LFS can't repair the LED, I may switch to T5s. As I use a chiller, the heat from the T5s won't be an issue.



alto said:


> What is your tap water like (or are you using RO)?


I'm using good old sky juice (plain tap water - average pH 6.8)
Cheers.


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## alto

I'm in the habit of reading old threads on UKAPS ... you might find this one interesting (re the algae outburst after changing house ... if your water is soft (which I'd suspect with that pH), maybe look into some additives)


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## oliverpool

alto said:


> I'm in the habit of reading old threads on UKAPS ... you might find this one interesting (re the algae outburst after changing house ... if your water is soft (which I'd suspect with that pH), maybe look into some additives)



Agree on this. 

Zak - our water is really soft. Something like 0 GH and 2 or 3 KH. No calcium and almost no magnesium. I am also encountering issues after around 6 months from starting. My guess is the soil has been providing some buffer for Calcium/Magnesium shortage and it became worse and worse as time goes on.


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## Zak Rafik

oliverpool said:


> Agree on this.
> 
> Zak - our water is really soft. Something like 0 GH and 2 or 3 KH. No calcium and almost no magnesium. I am also encountering issues after around 6 months from starting. My guess is the soil has been providing some buffer for Calcium/Magnesium shortage and it became worse and worse as time goes on.



Hi Oliver,
Since I'm into EI, I mix 6 teaspoons of Magnesium Sulphate into 500ml water. This stock solution lasts for 2 weeks and 2 days ( ie. 8 doses of 60ml each)
I tested my KH (using API KH tester) it gave a reading of 6. The same reading since I started the tank.
As for calcium, I have 1 kg of coral chips in the canister.
Average pH is 6.9 ( using a pH tester pen)

How is your tank doing now?


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## oliverpool

Zak Rafik said:


> Hi Oliver,
> Since I'm into EI, I mix 6 teaspoons of Magnesium Sulphate into 500ml water. This stock solution lasts for 2 weeks and 2 days ( ie. 8 doses of 60ml each)
> I tested my KH (using API KH tester) it gave a reading of 6. The same reading since I started the tank.
> As for calcium, I have 1 kg of coral chips in the canister.
> Average pH is 6.9 ( using a pH tester pen)
> 
> How is your tank doing now?



Fingers crossed. It does seem to be doing better in the past 2 weeks since I started dosing Barr GH Booster at water change and adding MGSO4 as per EI with my macros. I guess I was following EI just from a US centric site which usually does not indicate that MG is required dosing. I do not test my water these days except for TDS and PH (co2 gauge) as a gauge to see if TDS is creeping up (poor maintenance) or some other issue. 

If you have coral chips in your canister, that should be good enough for calcium. Thats probaby why your KH is at 6?  I have pretty low PH of around 6.1/6.2 before CO2 injection.  Probably due to the driftwood and ADA soil.


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## ltsai

Yeah, I dose MG too and I get CA from CaNO3, but I don't have any carbonate source.


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## Zak Rafik

ltsai said:


> Yeah, I dose MG too and I get CA from CaNO3, but I don't have any carbonate source.


Hi Itsai,
How have you been? Glad to hear from you.
Looking forward to any answer from fellow members on this.


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