# Algaecides (not Glutaraldehyde)



## Simon Cole (11 May 2022)

I was reading this post from 2016 that was talking about allelopathy and I wondered whether any algaecides have been developed based upon naturally occurring organic compounds?
Or more specifically, is there anything safer that glutaraldehyde that is being overlooked or is coming down the pipeline?

Edit:  Please add *YOUR EXPERIENCE     * ...this will be a good way to move forwards after we have identified opportunities and looked into the science. 

Edit 2:  Water column dosing solutions, if you don't mind please.


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## Garuf (11 May 2022)

Algexit? Easy life have played how it works close to the chest and reply to emails with “natural chemicals and compounds”.


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## Wookii (11 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> Algexit? Easy life have played how it works close to the chest and reply to emails with “natural chemicals and compounds”.



The active ingredient in Algexit is Salicylic acid.






						Salicylic acid
					

Apparently this is the active ingredient in the relatively new anti-algae product, Easylife Algexit.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid  It makes interesting reading.



					www.ukaps.org


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## alnitak (11 May 2022)

Salicylic acid, a well known natural substance, from willow tree 😊👍🏻😜


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## dw1305 (11 May 2022)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> The active ingredient in Algexit is Salicylic acid.


"Soluble Aspirin", anybody want to try it?

I think you can also buy pure salicylic acid as a wart remover.

cheers Darrel


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## plantnoobdude (11 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> Or more specifically, is there anything safer that glutaraldehyde that is being overlooked or is coming down the pipeline?


Hydrogen peroxide? fish and invertebrate safe far as I know. can damage sensitive plants like val, tonina, syns. egeria though.


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## Simon Cole (12 May 2022)

Thanks you to everyone who contributed to this thread. Feel free to add more ideas as they come up over time.

I guess if fish feel pain like the experts say in Seaspiracy, then salicylic acid (Algexit) beginning to sound like a win-win.  If anyone uses it - please feel free to comment below!


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## Andy Pierce (12 May 2022)

Is this for spot treatment, or for water column treatment?


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## alnitak (12 May 2022)

Hello, just keep in mind that aspirin is not exactly salicylic acid, it is acetyl salicylic acid. Salicylic acid is a "natural" substance while  aspirin is not. 

It could be interesting to investigate if the presence of willow trees in swamp or free water areas has an effect on the algae development in these area ?  I have no idea about that, but maybe it works like that


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## ian_m (12 May 2022)

alnitak said:


> It could be interesting to investigate if the presence of willow trees in swamp or free water areas has an effect on the algae development in these area ?


My mates willow tree was covered in moss & lichen (nearly like algae ?)  when it was chopped down, so growing on the bark probably makes no difference


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## Simon Cole (12 May 2022)

Andy Pierce said:


> spot treatment, or for water column treatment?


Water column. 


alnitak said:


> the presence of willow trees in swamp or free water areas has an effect on the algae development in these area ?


That does make me wonder.  When I have been in streams I have noticed very little algae growing on the fallen leaves. They do fall a little bit late in the year. I wonder what a glass full of chopped leaves would do on my windowsill. Obviously, they could be packed inside a filter, or possibly the chopped stems.


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## dw1305 (12 May 2022)

Hi all,


alnitak said:


> It could be interesting to investigate if the presence of willow trees in swamp or free water areas has an effect on the algae development in these area


They are used a bit in phytoremediation of waste water, in regions with cold winters: <"Biomass Production and Removal of Nitrogen and Phosphorus from Processed Municipal Wastewater by _Salix schwerinii_: A Field Trial">

_Salix_ spp. also had a bit of a vogue as a riparium plant. You can place <"dormant twigs in the aquarium and they will root and leaf up">.  You can also <"tonsure them into interesting shapes"> via the "basket weaving" principle.

Algae reduction was one of their (supposed) advantages. They are the most incredible nutrient sinks, so you would need to untangle any nutrient effects from allelopathy.

These were Roy's (the late lamented @Greenfinger2)






The downside is that they grow like mad, and grow a <"lot of root very quickly">, and it gets absolutely everywhere.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick potts (12 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I guess if fish feel pain like the experts say in Seaspiracy, then salicylic acid (Algexit) beginning to sound like a win-win.  If anyone uses it - please feel free to comment below!



I have used the Algexit to treat Spirogyra, worked very well and no noticeable side affects.


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## jaypeecee (12 May 2022)

Nick potts said:


> I have used the Algexit to treat Spirogyra, worked very well and no noticeable side affects.


Hi @Nick potts & Everyone,

The active ingredient in Easy-Life's _Blue Exit_ is also salicylic acid. I have used _Blue Exit_, which targets Cyanobacteria (aka 'BGA'). Ideally, it would act as a preventative but Cyano isn't easily defeated. But, I still continue to run experiments with that objective in mind. Keeps me out of mischief, if nothing else!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (12 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I was reading this post from 2016 that was talking about allelopathy and I wondered whether any algaecides have been developed based upon naturally occurring organic compounds?


Hi @Simon Cole 

I am in the process of putting together a list of natural algicide candidates - that should come to fruition tomorrow (fingers crossed). Unfortunately, one candidate that may disappear soon, if it hasn't already in some countries, is barley straw or its extract. It appears to be shortlisted for legislative withdrawal. There are aquatic plants with known allelopathic action. Diana Walstad discusses this in some detail in Chapter III of her book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_.

JPC


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

@jaypeecee Cheers John  
I think a bit of alchemy will be involved if people go down the DIY route, but if manufacturers have already done the leg work, then it would be well worth monitoring the results. It seems the EU wanted to apply the precautionary principle with barley straw.


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## Hanuman (13 May 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> Hydrogen peroxide? fish and invertebrate safe far as I know. can damage sensitive plants like val, tonina, syns. egeria though.


I think the word safe here is far from being appropriate. H. peroxide can be highly dangerous and highly toxic to fauna if you don't dose with careful precaution. It will destroy cells no matter the pathway. I use it myself but I always under-dose and never leave the tank alone when dosing it.


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I think the word safe here is far from being appropriate.


Tina Turner experimented a bit with hydrogen peroxide. Her face kinda sums it up: 


 
Interestingly, I did read this is what is formed when barley straw is added to water, but in very small quantities. Hopefully we'll be able to work out what is safe vs effective, but it will be a slog...


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## Hanuman (13 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> Tina Turner experimented a bit with hydrogen peroxide.


So did I in my young age. Ended up with orange hair since I didn't use enough of it or concentration was low, can't remember the specifics. I can tell you I looked dangerous.


Simon Cole said:


> Interestingly, I did read this is what is formed when barley straw is added to water, but in very small quantities. Hopefully we'll be able to work out what is safe vs effective, but it will be a slog...


I suppose at low levels it is probably safe but as glut, it needs to be handled with greate care.


Simon Cole said:


> Edit: Please add *YOUR EXPERIENCE * ...this will be a good way to move forwards after we have identified opportunities and looked into the science.


I have virtually tried most if not all algaecides available in to human kind the hobby. From glut, to algae killing bacteria, vitamins, to H. peroxide and holy water.  Below a prime example of what can be found in the Thai market.


 


Besides the fact that dosing changes from lot to lot on the above product and that I was given some fuming explanations from a retailer of the reasons for this, needless to say none of what I have tried is "safe", and great caution needs to be taken when adding any of these products.

Now, 2HrAquarist (Dennis Wong), has a new algaecide in the hood.  A glorified glut substitute. @X3NiTH made some very interesting comments on it. Yet some more chemicals to add to our tanks... I find it ironic though that we keep on talking about healthy tanks yet we keep on adding some crazy potions in them.


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> A glorified glut substitute


We may never know until the proprietary formulation in APT Fix is revealed, and I'm not sure I'm even that bothered. Something that is natural and allelopathic is where this quest must go. Thanks for your post.


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## Hanuman (13 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> Something that is natural and allelopathic is where this quest must go.


Well that Chinese product I mentioned in the post is supposedly "natural" if you read the back label. Might be worth digging for the biologists and chemists out there.


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Chinese product I mentioned in the post is supposedly "natural" if you read the back label


That's cool. I've just go no idea what is in it. It is even more funny where in mentions "unique genetic engineering technology". Please could you ask them whether they bought back something from the past, like in Jurassic Park, or was it more hybridised like in the movie Splice, or perhaps they enhanced a existing living organism like in the film Alien Covenant. But I am guessing that they simply bioengineered existing plant-life, so a bit more like The Day of the Triffids. Just so long as a load of people in white biohazard suits don't turn up on my lawn with placards spray-painting biohazard symbols on my front door. I think the safest thing to do if we don't know would be to blast it into space like in the movie "Life" (does it translate as Calvin?).


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## Hanuman (13 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> That's cool. I've just go no idea what is in it. It is even more funny where in mentions "unique genetic engineering technology". Please could you ask them whether they bought back something from the past, like in Jurassic Park, or was it more hybridised like in the movie Splice, or perhaps they enhanced a existing living organism like in the film Alien Covenant. But I am guessing that they simply bioengineered existing plant-life, so a bit more like The Day of the Triffids. Just so long as a load of people in white biohazard suits don't turn up on my lawn with placards spray-painting biohazard symbols on my front door. I think the safest thing to do if we don't know would be to blast it into space like in the movie "Life" (does it translate as Calvin?).


Yes, pretty fuming explanation that label I must admit.  What I gathered from the retailer, since the manufacturer is some obscur entity, is that the product is basically bacteria. Which one, no idea. I could go digging some more see what I get as an answer but I'm confident I'll either get nothing or some further fuming explanations. All I know is that it killed quite a few of my otocinclus although I did under-dose. Hang tight, I will ask them just for the fun.


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

@Hanuman  Thanks. They say it is a "new type of biological agent" so perhaps try the Wuhan Institute of Virology if the wholesaler doesn't know.


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## alnitak (13 May 2022)




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## Garuf (13 May 2022)

Hanuman said:


> I think the word safe here is far from being appropriate. H. peroxide can be highly dangerous and highly toxic to fauna if you don't dose with careful precaution. It will destroy cells to matter the pathway. I use it myself but I always under-dose and never leave the tank alone when dosing it.


I was about to comment h2o2 isn’t safe, exactly… I nuked a shrimp tank once many moons back before I knew better and lost the best part of 100 of the idiot things who swam right into the area being spot dosed and then kicked it.


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

@Garuf - I'm kind of pulling knowledge on water-column treatments for exactly that reason. But also focussing on natural allelopathic compounds.


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## Garuf (13 May 2022)

This is firing something in the back of my head that there were some papers calling allelopthy in aquariums bunk? I thought it was a barr report but Google says no.


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## Simon Cole (13 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> papers calling allelopthy in aquariums bunk?


Have a look at this thread linked in the first post and scroll up. There was substantial evidence cited.


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## Garuf (13 May 2022)

Going back to the dosing of the tank as a whole to kill algae, a local to me swears by making a black water cocktail with oak leaves and fluvin+ From salty shrimp and dosing while the filter is off and allowing to settle before turning it back on to kill soft green algaes. Haven’t tried it myself, smelled like serpent oil. 

Also a thought on why leaves don’t have algae, is it perhaps the biofilm that forms is decomposing the surface faster than algae can form?


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## Andy Pierce (13 May 2022)

Doesn't count as 'organic' or 'alleopathy' but I'm pretty happy with EI dosing high phosphate:  phosphate with EI - higher than 3 ppm?


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## tiger15 (13 May 2022)

The most common algaecide in US is API Algaefix, used extensively by pond owners and small number of aquarists to combat algae.  Glut is used commercially as a biocide for cooling towers and  medical equipment sterilization.    Seachem markets Glut as liquid carbon to disguise that it is actually an algaecide.  H2O2 is a general antiseptic, and is effective in treating many algae principally by spot treatment.

There is nothing wrong using algaecides for algae control,  provided that it is used at the right dosage to prevent collateral damage to plants, fish and invert.   Any over dosage of chemicals can be detrimental, so there is no safe chemical, only unsafe dosage.  Barr recommends dosing Glut and spot treat with H2O2 routinely in water change.  Barr uses Algaefix  to combat thread algae (spirogyra and Clado) as neither H2O2 nor Glut is effective.  I have used all three chemicals and found that Glut is most effective against BBA but not much else, and Algaefix is effective against thread algae but not BBA, GDA or GSA so the two compliment each other.  Alagaefix will kill shrimp, but Glut is perfectly safe for invert even at 2 to 3 times over dosage.  I have never used Algexit as it is not sold in US and can't comment on it.


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## mort (14 May 2022)

We built a willow bed to filter a koi pond and had the willow so they held their roots in the water column and not into a substrate. The roots were the only part of the willow that didn't have algal growth by the end of the year (they did catch some algae but it wasnt attached).


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## Hanuman (15 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> @Hanuman  Thanks. They say it is a "new type of biological agent" so perhaps try the Wuhan Institute of Virology if the wholesaler doesn't know.





I didn't push it much longer considering what I was getting as answers.
This is what the ingredients are



I'll leave it to that.


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## tiger15 (15 May 2022)

mort said:


> We built a willow bed to filter a koi pond and had the willow so they held their roots in the water column and not into a substrate. The roots were the only part of the willow that didn't have algal growth by the end of the year (they did catch some algae but it wasnt attached).


There are claims that Aspirin can improve plant health and growth.  Aspirin contains  salicylic acid that is derived from willow bark.  It has been a common practice to dose Aspirin to cut flowers and house plants .  If Aspirin has the same ingredient and effects as Algexit, it would be a lot cheaper to use Aspirin.  The question is to figure out the right dosage. 









						5 Aspirin Uses In the Garden for Most Productive & Healthy Plants
					

Aspirin tablets can be used for growing healthy and productive plants, and it really WORKS. Here're some of the best ASPIRIN uses in the garden!




					balconygardenweb.com


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## mort (15 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> There are claims that Aspirin can improve plant health and growth.  Aspirin contains  salicylic acid that is derived from willow bark.  It has been a common practice to dose Aspirin to cut flowers and house plants .  If Aspirin has the same ingredient and effects as Algexit, it would be a lot cheaper to use Aspirin.  The question is to figure out the right dosage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We made aspirin from willow in a chemistry experiment and the lab tech took it for his wife who was a florist. I've no idea if it is of any benefit and I've actually heard that willow actually inhibits the growth of other plants before but never looked into it very deeply.


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## jaypeecee (16 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> I am in the process of putting together a list of natural algicide candidates - that should come to fruition tomorrow (fingers crossed).


Hi @Simon Cole & Everyone,

Well, I missed my self-inflicted deadline! But, that's because I found so much material to read and absorb. In _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium (Third Edition)*_,  I discovered an allelochemical with the name of Tellimagrandin II, which is to be found in Myriophyllum spicatum (Eurasian Water Milfoil). Diana Walstad dedicates a whole chapter (III) to allelopathy and it makes for very interesting reading. It left me thinking that here was an answer to controlling algae. And, then, I discovered the following article/paper:



			https://acquariofilia.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Allelopathy-Chemical-Warfare-Between-Aquatic-Plants-by-dr.-Ole-Pedersen.pdf
		


It seems that allelopathic compounds are worthy of further investigation. But, I think it's necessary to first focus attention on the root causes of algae in the aquarium ecosystem. And, Number 1 Priority (for me, at least) is minimizing dissolved organic matter (DOM).

* by Diana Walstad

JPC


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## Simon Cole (16 May 2022)

@jaypeecee  Thank you for looking into this. 
Ole Pedersen was making the point that aquarists won't easily achieve natural allelopathy due to the water change regime. But what really gets me is how affordable and simple an algaecide could be. Tellimagrandin II (TGII) is found in cloves. Plant extracts really aren't that difficult to set up on a dosing timer, or they might be able to chuck in a bag of dried plant matter, or add it to the filter, or simply add a few cloves, who knows. It could be a lot easier than fighting algae manually. I'm quite a bit bolstered by a lot of these opportunities. Very grateful you spotted them and posted them.


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## Garuf (16 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> @jaypeecee  Thank you for looking into this.
> Ole Pedersen was making the point that aquarists won't easily achieve natural allelopathy due to the water change regime. But what really gets me is how affordable and simple an algaecide could be. Tellimagrandin II (TGII) is found in cloves. Plant extracts really aren't that difficult to set up on a dosing timer, or they might be able to chuck in a bag of dried plant matter, or add it to the filter, or simply add a few cloves, who knows. It could be a lot easier than fighting algae manually. I'm quite a bit bolstered by a lot of these opportunities. Very grateful you spotted them and posted them.


I’m thinking out loud here, but would I have two thoughts. 
Thought A), running a permanent algaecide seems like a bandage to mask many ills. 
Thought 2) would running a permanent algaecide not be detrimental to biofilm formation and a negative for the carbon/sugars/organics cycling and therefor not really very good for overall tank health?


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## jaypeecee (16 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> Very grateful you spotted them and posted them.


Hi @Simon Cole 

One of the benefits of being retired is that I have time to delve into the science behind our hobby. Although my background is in the Physical Sciences, I'm thoroughly enjoying my exploration of the Life Sciences. It's exciting stuff!

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (16 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> or simply add a few cloves,


With caution; remember clove oil is used as a fish sedative, anaesthetic or euthanasia agent depending on the dose.


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## tiger15 (17 May 2022)

Garuf said:


> I’m thinking out loud here, but would I have two thoughts.
> Thought A), running a permanent algaecide seems like a bandage to mask many ills.
> Thought 2) would running a permanent algaecide not be detrimental to biofilm formation and a negative for the carbon/sugars/organics cycling and therefor not really very good for overall tank health?


Ideally, you would like to fix the fundamental problems to control algae rather than to rely on algaecide. 

There are, however, situations where use of algaecide is unavoidable.   I have a planted bowl in my window sill that receives afternoon sunlight.  I cannot dial down sunlight, and placing a sun screen behind the bowl will affect visibility and aesthetic.  Thread algae (spirogyra, Clado) thrive in intense sunlight and nothing worked until I  use AlgaeFix which is commonly  used by koi pond owners.

I also have high tech tanks with large cichlid that generate heavy bioload which is magnet for algae.  I can't reduce the bioload by giving up keeping cichlid, and my solution is to  dose Glut and spot treat with peroxide in weekly water change.  Glut is the safest algaecide for livestock and plants, and I don't think I can have algae free planted cichlid tanks without it.

Tom Barr used Glut  and peroxide to take care of clients tanks and recommends dosing them for routine tank maintenance practices.


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## Simon Cole (18 May 2022)

API AlgaeFix is a 4.5% solution of Poly(oxyethylene) (dimethylimino) ethylene (dimethylimino) ethylene dichloride, according to this source, and I am linking a safety data sheet for that molecule here because it details aquatic toxicology.

The safety of both peroxide and glutaraldehyde has been discussed many times before on this forum. This thread excludes glutaraldehyde.
This thread is looking at naturally occurring organic compounds, including those that are known to be allelopathic.
API AlgaeFix and APT Fix: thanks for mentioning them anyway.

I'm going to chill out for a while and then come back to this topic to do a bit more reading, but feel free to flood in more ideas for naturally occurring organic molecules in the meantime.


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## tiger15 (18 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> API AlgaeFix is a 4.5% solution of Poly(oxyethylene) (dimethylimino) ethylene (dimethylimino) ethylene dichloride, according to this source, and I am linking a safety data sheet for that molecule here because it details aquatic toxicology.
> 
> The safety of both peroxide and glutaraldehyde has been discussed many times before on this forum. This thread excludes glutaraldehyde.
> This thread is looking at naturally occurring organic compounds, including those that are known to be allelopathic.
> ...


According to the the link you provided for API AlgaeFix , I summarized the aquatic toxicity data below.

LC50, Fathead Minnow (Pimephales promelas), larva(e), 353.0 UG/L, 48 H, Mortality
LC50, Rainbow Trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss), 44.00 UG/L, 48 H, Mortality
LC50, Harlequinfish (Rasbora heteromorpha), 660.0 UG/L, 24 H, Mortality
LC50, Channel Catfish (Ictalurus punctatus), 3350. UG/L, 48 H, Mortality
LC50, Zebra Mussel (Dreissena polymorpha), 60000. UG/L, 48 H, Mortality
LC50, Water Flea (Ceriodaphnia dubia), neonate, 218.0 UG/L, 48 H, Mortality

 According to my calculation, API recommends dosage  of 1 ml  of 4.5% solution to 38L of water will result in 1.18 ppm or 1180 ug/L concentration.    So it is not a safe dosage for most tested animal.  Why is there no margin of safety.


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## tiger15 (18 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> This thread is looking at naturally occurring organic compounds, including those that are known to be allelopathic.


It appears that Algexit  is the only commercial algaecide that contains a natural allelopathic extract, Salicylic acid from Willow bark.  But Salicylic acid is now mass produced synthetically to make Aspirin.  It will be worthwhile to investigate the dosage and toxicity of aspirin remedy. 

More aquarists use real plants for allelopathic algae control. for example, Hornwort has been proven and recommended as companion plant to control algae in ponds and fish tanks.


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## Simon Cole (18 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> Why is there no margin of safety.


I did wonder about that. I think it is because it does not persist for very long in aquarium water, so fewer people have observed acute toxicological symptoms in their livestock.

@Nick potts @jaypeecee - Hello again Nick and John. I wondered whether you might know the concentration of salicylic acid used in your algae treatments please? 
I've got a rough guess of the effective concentration for salicylic acid to inhibit algae, and I can look into the aquatic toxicology later. I just wondered because it would be interesting to see the dosage that they have selected.


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## Nick potts (18 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I did wonder about that. I think it is because it does not persist for very long in aquarium water, so fewer people have observed acute toxicological symptoms in their livestock.
> 
> @Nick potts @jaypeecee - Hello again Nick and John. I wondered whether you might know the concentration of salicylic acid used in your algae treatments please?
> I've got a rough guess of the effective concentration for salicylic acid to inhibit algae, and I can look into the aquatic toxicology later. I just wondered because it would be interesting to see the dosage that they have selected.



Sorry no idea, I can't find any concentration information on algexit/


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## Simon Cole (18 May 2022)

@Nick potts - Thanks for looking  
I may just drop them an email, but I am already suspecting it would be far cheaper to make from scratch, so I'll have to thrash out the desired concentrations later.
It is only £15.99 for 200 grams of 99.9% pure salicylic acid powder on Ebay (with free delivery), and I am guessing that would be enough powder to last a lifetime.


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## tiger15 (18 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> I did wonder about that. I think it is because it does not persist for very long in aquarium water, so fewer people have observed acute toxicological symptoms in their livestock.
> 
> @Nick potts @jaypeecee - Hello again Nick and John. I wondered whether you might know the concentration of salicylic acid used in your algae treatments please?
> I've got a rough guess of the effective concentration for salicylic acid to inhibit algae, and I can look into the aquatic toxicology later. I just wondered because it would be interesting to see the dosage that they have selected.


API info says that AlgaeFix degrades in 24 hours, enough to kill off some test animal, such as,  LC50, Harlequinfish (Rasbora heteromorpha), 660.0 UG/L, 24 H, Mortality.  Glut is similarly degradable in 24 hours, but the recommended dosage has huge safety margin of 4 to 10x.  AlgaeFix is an O2 scavenger, and  live bearers are reported to be specially vulnerable.  I only used it in my window sill planted bowl with a paradise fish with no issue, and Paradise is an air breather.  I have no courage to use AlgaeFix in my community planted tank while I have total confidence and used Glut for years.

The gardening forum recommends dosing one aspirin per liter for plants,  but the info is incomplete without toxicity data.


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## jaypeecee (18 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> Hello again Nick and John. I wondered whether you might know the concentration of salicylic acid used in your algae treatments please?
> I've got a rough guess of the effective concentration for salicylic acid to inhibit algae, and I can look into the aquatic toxicology later. I just wondered because it would be interesting to see the dosage that they have selected.


Hi @Simon Cole 

The recommended dosage for _Blue Exit_ is 10 ml per 80 litres daily over the course of 5 consecutive days. As a preventative, dosage is 10 ml per 80 litres weekly. The instructions for use also make a point of saying "Does not contain erythromycin". In practice, the dosage can be significantly increased. I had a dialogue with _Easy-Life_ some time ago and they sent me a report carried out by an independent body. I'll see if I can find it.

JPC


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## Nick potts (18 May 2022)

Don't know if this is of any interest.



			http://www.rybarstvi.eu/pub%20rybari/2013%20Mendelnet%20Postulkova.pdf


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## John q (18 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> The gardening forum recommends dosing one aspirin per liter for plants, but the info is incomplete without toxicity data.


Interesting thread.

One paper suggests acute LC 50 for juvenile zebrafish is 567 mg/l .
Another paper suggests  levels of 40 mg/l had no detrimental affect on growth rates in the same fish.

Interestingly the paper concerning acute toxicity makes mention of algal toxicity (EC50) to salicylic acid to be greater than 100mg/l?









						Acute toxicity of acetylsalicylic acid to juvenile and embryonic stages of Danio rerio - PubMed
					

The results revealed a statistically significantly higher degree of sensitivity in the embryonic stages of zebrafish compared to its juveniles. Acetylsalicylic acid did not cause statistically significantly higher antioxidative defence in zebrafish.




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				












						The Effects of Salicylic Acid on Juvenile Zebrafish Danio rerio Under Flow-Through Conditions - PubMed
					

The aquatic environment is becoming increasingly contaminated with pharmaceuticals. Salicylic acid (SA), which can be used individually or appear as a degradation product of the widely used acetylsalicylic acid was chosen for testing. Juvenile zebrafish Danio rerio were subjected to OECD test...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## tiger15 (18 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Simon Cole
> 
> The recommended dosage for _Blue Exit_ is 10 ml per 80 litres daily over the course of 5 consecutive days. As a preventative, dosage is 10 ml per 80 litres weekly. The instructions for use also make a point of saying "Does not contain erythromycin". In practice, the dosage can be significantly increased. I had a dialogue with _Easy-Life_ some time ago and they sent me a report carried out by an independent body. I'll see if I can find it.
> 
> JPC


What is the effective concentration of salicylic acid, that is, ppm or mg/L,  in the recommended dosage.


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## tiger15 (18 May 2022)

John q said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> One paper suggests acute LC 50 for juvenile zebrafish is 567 mg/l .
> Another paper suggests  levels of 40 mg/l had no detrimental affect on growth rates in the same fish.
> ...


So if I dissolve one 350mg aspirin in a L of water, it will have enough strength to inhibit algae without killing fish, assuming that aspirin and salicylic acid are gram equivalent.   That is a cheap source of algaecide.  I may test it out in my planted bowl.


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## John q (18 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> So if I dissolve one 350mg aspirin in a L of water, it will have enough strength to inhibit algae without killing fish, assuming that aspirin and salicylic acid are gram equivalent.   That is a cheap source of algaecide.  I may test it out in my planted bowl.


Well if my understanding of the above papers are correct (there's no guarantee that's the case) then yes you'd be correct, however the lc50 number mentioned above killed 50% of zebrafish in 48hrs, also worth mentioning the lc50 for zebrafish embryos was only 274mg/l in one paper and  Lowest Observed Effect Concentration =37mg/l in another, so I wouldn't be dosing 350mg in a litre of water that contained livestock.

Again my interpretation of above papers could well be flawed.

Edited for clarity.


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## jaypeecee (18 May 2022)

Hi Folks,

Are we not in danger of equating aspirin wth salicylic acid? According to Wikipedia, "Salicylic acid has long been a key starting material for making acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin)". I think we need to proceed with caution. If not, I fear there's a risk of livestock casualties. And I, for one, want no part in that.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (18 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> The gardening forum recommends dosing one aspirin per liter for plants, but the info is incomplete without toxicity data.


Hi @tiger15 

Information from a gardening forum is of limited use. Not only did they not have to consider fish toxicity but they may not have had a need to consider bacterial toxicity. Or water oxygen level, etc.

JPC


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## tiger15 (19 May 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Are we not in danger of equating aspirin wth salicylic acid? According to Wikipedia, "Salicylic acid has long been a key starting material for making acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin)". I think we need to proceed with caution. If not, I fear there's a risk of livestock casualties. And I, for one, want no part in that.
> 
> JPC


True, aspirin is not the same as salicylic acid, even though it is a precurser to make aspirin.  There are no aquatic toxicity data for aspirin, but data are available for salicylic acid from Easy Life and other sources as posted in 52 and 55.  I wouldn’t use aspirin with life stock, but plant only set up is a possibility.  It is not necessary to substitute aspirin for salicylic acid as salicylic acid is readily available OTC for topical treatment of skin ailments.


jaypeecee said:


> Hi @tiger15
> 
> Information from a gardening forum is of limited use. Not only did they not have to consider fish toxicity but they may not have had a need to consider bacterial toxicity. Or water oxygen level, etc.
> 
> JPC


Garden forum info cannot be trusted , and this is why I said the info is incomplete.  Florists have used aspirin to treat plants for ages and there may be some merit to it in suppressing algae and bio fouling.  You will not find aquatic toxicity data on aspirin unless you generate your own as it is not an ingredient of any commercial biocide.


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## John q (19 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> You will not find aquatic toxicity data on aspirin unless you generate your own


There is some data out there for Acetylsalicylic Acid, the fish used were Carp, over a 12 and 21 day period they were administerd 100mg/l and 200mg/l of ASA.
I don't have full access to the paper so haven't read their test procedures, but have requested it and will post here if I get it.

Take home from the article was..

"From the results, it is noteworthy that the drug ASA even at considerable environmental concentrations causes negative impacts on the health of aquatic organisms. The alterations of these parameters can be effectively used to monitor the impact of pharmaceutical drugs in the aquatic environment."









						Toxicity Assessment of Acetylsalicylic Acid to a Freshwater Fish Cyprinus carpio: Haematological, Biochemical, Enzymological and Antioxidant Responses
					

Pharmaceutical pollution is a global threat to the biosphere causing significant environmental health concern. A wide range of pharmaceuticals (antibiotics, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, beta-blockers, etc.) are widely used in human and veterinary medicine,...




					link.springer.com


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## tiger15 (19 May 2022)

John q said:


> There is some data out there for Acetylsalicylic Acid, the fish used were Carp, over a 12 and 21 day period they were administerd 100mg/l and 200mg/l of ASA.
> I don't have full access to the paper so haven't read their test procedures, but have requested it and will post here if I get it.
> 
> Take home from the article was..
> ...


Interesting finding.   My interpretation of this study is that carp can survive 12 to 21 days at 100 to 200 ppm ASA notwithstanding some  negative blood effect.  This means it is safe to dose one baby aspirin or 89 gm daily to carp, and probably also OK to dose full strength or 350 gm non daily.   The question is whether there is sufficient strength to inhibit algae and what kind that only aquarists can find out themselves by experimentation.

Aspirin is a magical drug that can do so many things that scientists still do not understand fully how it works.  I have been taking baby aspirin daily for years as recommended for and now against by scientists  and will cost  me nothing to test it out  with my plants.


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## John q (19 May 2022)

tiger15 said:


> This means it is safe to dose one baby aspirin or 89 gm daily to carp, and probably also OK to dose full strength or 350 gm non daily.


I honestly don't know mate. Personally I'd be reluctant to dose any levels simply because there's mixed information out there as to the toxity of Salicylic acid/Acetylsalicylic and fish.

I think there definitely needs to be some hobbyist type experiments done to work out if a sweet spot can be found that kills off algae and has no negative effects on plants, I just think this should be done initially without potentially harming our livestock.

On a related note I found this information that suggests in not to high doses salicylic acid can also be harmful to plants.

Any other information on results incl. tables​At 60 and 120 mg/l of salicylic acid reduced the final leaf number, the dry weight and the chlorophyll contents of L. minor (see table 1 below).
Chlorophyll contents in Lemna tissues and in water are negatively correlated.
The highest dose caused a rapid yellowing of leaves.

Table 1: Effect of salicylic acid on the growth, biomass and chlorophyll contents of L. minor. Values expressed as percentage of controls after 7 days exposure.
​
*Nominal concentration of salicylic acid (mg/L)*​* No. of leaves*​* biomass (dry weight)*​* Chlorophyll content*​* Tissue*​* water*​*15*​94*​100​102​160​* 30*​96​90​100​180​* 60*​90*​75*​75*​220*​* 120*​20*​15*​3*​​

* data significantly different from controls.​It was suggested in the article that additional toxic effect on the plants are likely at a pH below 5.
table 2 : pH values at different concentrations in salicylic acid and sodium salicylate
​
*concentration in mg/L** 0**15**30**60 **120 **pH in salicylic acid solution*6.746.606.425.923.66* pH in sodium salicylate solution*6.896.927.007.147.38

Applicant's summary and conclusion​Validity criteria fulfilled:not specifiedRemarks:not applicable no guideline followed and not enough data to assess validity criteriaConclusions:In the conditions tested, salicylic acid showed a slight effect on growth of the aquatic plant Lemna minor.
However, complementary results with sodium salicylate which does not lower the pH as much as salicylic acid showed no toxicity directly linked to the substance. This toxicity of salicylic acid therefore might be due to a physical effect (acid).Executive summary:
In a* 7 days acute toxicity test, single-leaf plants* of *Lemna minor *were exposed to *salicylic acid* at nominal concentrations of 0, 15, 30, 60 and 120 mg/L.

The study did not followed a guideline but seems to be scientifically well performed.

Growth inhibition was recorded via biopmass parameters (dry weight, number of leaves and chlorophyll content inside tissues and in water).

These parameters and* were significantly different from control between 60 and 120 mg/L, therefore the *The* 7 -d EC50* is between 60 and 120 mg/L of salicylic acid.

Yellowing was only observed at the highest concentration tested.



*In the test conditions, salicylic acid is considered as harmful* to algae according to Directive 67/548/EEC criteria.

Authors also indicate that salicylic acid and sodium salicylate are of a lower toxicity to aquatic plants in a concentration range up to 50 mg per liter and could be ranked into class 1 of chemicals with a low hazard potential (Geyer et al., 1985).

Considering the effect on solution pH of salicylic acid it is therefore relevant to consider that the toxic effect observed in this study is related to a physical effect (acid) and as suggested by authors, to consider salicylic acid as a substance with *low hazard potential.*



The authors have not followed any guideline and no information is given for GLP, analytical monitoring of the substance, purity of the substance, test conditions. But, it seems that the method mainly follows OECD guidelines with deviations (no reference substances testing, four concentrations tested). And analysis of the results is reliable by considering the potential pH effect on the toxicity.

Therefore this toxicity study is considered as reliable with restrictions.


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## jaypeecee (19 May 2022)

Nick potts said:


> Don't know if this is of any interest.
> 
> http://www.rybarstvi.eu/pub rybari/2013 Mendelnet Postulkova.pdf


Hi @Nick potts 

Yes, it is of interest. And it was a copy of this very document that _Easy-Life_ sent to me about a couple of years ago. On the basis of this document, I started using _Blue Exit_. Whilst this product was/still is quite successful for me, others have had limited success. No surprises there, then!

JPC


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## John q (31 May 2022)

John q said:


> I don't have full access to the paper so haven't read their test procedures, but have requested it and will post here if I get it.


The request came through so being good to my word here's the full study text from post #59.


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## X3NiTH (31 May 2022)

So it looks like as long as your dosing less than 15mg/L of Salycilic then there’s little to no deleterious effect on the higher order plants and this dosage is a magnitude away from chronic levels used to evidence biological changes in the target fish species from that study. 

Question is at what mg/L level is actually required to have a desired effect on Algae.


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## John q (31 May 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> Question is at what mg/L level is actually required to have a desired effect on


From what little research I've done it looks likely to be around 100mg/L. 
Like most things in our hobby hard facts are hard to come by. My latest early morning search threw this up from the Sigma - aldrich safety data sheet for Acetylsalicylic Acid.


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## Hufsa (17 Jun 2022)

I may be a little bit late to the party here, forgive me if this has been mentioned already in this thread.
There appears to be an algae product on the market containing Salicylic acid. I thought it might be of interest to this thread.


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