# Over dosing with E.I



## Dolly Sprint 16v (6 May 2009)

Gang@Ukaps

What would be the net effect of over dosing the E.I regime. i am currently dosing a per Clive article with a slight increase in trace mix powder to the same amount of water. 

See attached doc's for the reason for the question.

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5959

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5993

Regards

Paul.


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## nry (6 May 2009)

Net effects?  I doubt there's any unless you severely overdose, as the EI method is really just a way of ensuring adequate/excess nutrient levels for plant growth to remove the likelihood of a deficiency.

I've not measured out the powders I mix with water for months, I just do a rough teaspoon level guide for each mix to give close enough to the recommended grams/litre for each powder.


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## JamesM (6 May 2009)

Being an engineer, Paul, I think its natural that you'd put too much thought in to all of this, but please don't - the idea is simple - we give our plants enough nutrients throughout the week so they don't starve. At the end of the week we change 50% of the water to remove any ammonia traces and algae spores, etc. to 'reset' the system. Every tank is different, because of plant mass, lighting, co2, flow, water quality, etc., etc. Look at your plants - if they look like they are lacking something, up the dose. There's a few members here who actually start dosing at double the recommended dose, so providing you don't get silly with it, you should be fine.

Forget pearling, etc. Plants don't do this in every setup - my plants hardly ever pearl as my flow is too much - stop the filter and its pearl city. My HC also takes an age to get going - in some cases it simply doesn't take, regardless of how much light, co2, and ferts I use. Others have had these same problems with HC too.


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## Superman (6 May 2009)

The theory behind EI is to have non limiting nutrient levels, maxing out and even overdosing shouldn't be a problem unless you seriously overdose and have high Nitrate levels.

I would of thought that if you're doing the EI method you should be already 'overdosing' but you should tailor your ferts to what you see in your tank.

Remember that EI is only one component of the whole light/co2/ferts/flow issue.

Have you seen any deficiencies?


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## LondonDragon (6 May 2009)

I dose in my Rio 125 double the recommended dosage. Works for me!


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2009)

Paul you need to stop thinking about nutrients as if they were some sort of medicine or toxic pollution. They are foostuffs. Plain and simple. What happens were you to overeat? The answer to that question is the same for plants and nutrients.

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (6 May 2009)

Thx guys 

Some pics attached showing why I am concerned - all of your tanks look great and in my opinion, mime looks a bit grotty - could do with a boost. I think 3/4 of my problem is been a engineer as JamesM quoted - I look too deep into things and the favourite saying is "if I do or what if" then I expect problems, so by asking questions, talking outloud and thinking logically before doing something you can remove a lot of the risk involved / potential issues /problems later in its life.

Right hand side of tank.





2 x Echinodorus "Rubin" at the very back 
6 x Crypt "wendtii green" in front of this are
4 x Crypt "wendtii brown" then we go to the carpet (the Crypts were split so I got more plants)
HC Carpet.
Very right hand side infront of the water intake pipe are
5 x Crypt "willisii"
I am going to shorten the overall length of this intake pipe as it buried behind the plants.




There is a significant differance in leaf diameter of the leaves and colouration.

New HC on the left which was bought on Sunday and planted on Monday.




Brown spots on Crypt - Willisii





Any comments / help would be appreciated. 
Regards
Paul.


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## JamesM (6 May 2009)

I think HC would have more chance of surviving if separated more when planting. Any emersed leaves will wilt and change colour ime, but new growth should be ok. Has it been trimmed at all? 

I gotta be honest, I haven't had a huge amount of luck with HC as it seems overly fussy. My last carpet took months and months to get going and in the end I ran out of patience with it. To others like Mark (saintly) and George, HC is a pure weed.

I'm not great with algae, but that looks like Diatoms to me, common in most new setups as the filter and substrate may not be mature enough. This can be gently wiped off in some cases and will eventually disappear. Otto's seem to love it too


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (6 May 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> I think HC would have more chance of surviving if separated more when planting. Any emersed leaves will wilt and change colour ime, but new growth should be ok. Has it been trimmed at all?
> 
> I gotta be honest, I haven't had a huge amount of luck with HC as it seems overly fussy. My last carpet took months and months to get going and in the end I ran out of patience with it. To others like Mark (saintly) and George, HC is a pure weed.
> 
> I'm not great with algae, but that looks like Diatoms to me, common in most new setups as the filter and substrate may not be mature enough. This can be gently wiped off in some cases and will eventually disappear. Otto's seem to love it too



James

intially the HC was cut into 10mm or 1cm cubes - I will admit that it has grown (spreading) since It was planted and no trimming has taken place.

As for maturity: the substrate has been in for about 10 months, new filter Eheim 2080 with all my old media from my Ex1200 + 7 litres of Eheim media fitted 6 - 8 weeks ago, Ex1200 media removed last Saturday and remain Eheim media 5 litres added. I will try and wipe the brown spots off tonight.

Regards & Thx 
Paul.

Been trawling the web and found somebody else HC which looks the same as mine - see attached pic. 

I can only assume that because its grown semi immersed the leaves are larger, once fully immersed the leaves go smaller - change of habitat.





Regards
paul


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2009)

Yeah, and add more CO2 (wish I had 50p for every time I said that).

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (6 May 2009)

Clive 

Is the yeah in agreement to my assumption regarding the HC plant.


As for the Co2 I am not going to increase the levels because if it goes wrong my mrs will have to adjust the settings due to my circumstances - of which you know about, checked the DC and the indicator solution is a light colour than the reference solution or a greenie yellow colour when held against a piece of paper , so I am going to increase the NPK ferts by 20% = 10mls more per dose - giving me a altarnating daily dose of 60mls in total , as for the trace mix, there has been increased powder so for the time being I am going to leave this as it is.

Regards

paul.


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2009)

Actually I was agreeing with JamesM in that the leaf looked like either diatomic algae or GSA. These symptoms along with thin HC growth points more to a CO2 limitation than anything else. If raising the injection rate is not practicable then daily supplementation with liquid carbon will help a lot.

What you mentioned about the differences between emmersed growth and submersed growth is valid, but that's not what those photos indicate. In your older specimens which have transitioned to submersed growth the spaces between the leaves means that the plant isn't putting on enough weight. That means they are not producing enough carbohydrates to fill out. Under optimum conditions this plant should become bushy and grow on top of itself.

In this typical example the transition has occurred but the plant stays bushy and compact instead of being strung out as in your case.





Later it fills in the spaces and still retains the bushiness. In this case it's growth became a nuisance and I finally pulled it out and went with a different carpet plant. This was a consequence of high carbon content. 
Carbon uptake controls the plants mass. Light controls the speed at which that mass accrues. From the photos it appears you have more of a mass problem than a speed problem, therefore I believe your problem is a carbon limitation.





Cheers,


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## plantbrain (7 May 2009)

HC is a really a semi low light but CO2 demanding plant.





I recently flooded this tank and it required more CO2 and less light to get going.
Same for the other DSM tanks, but without water, the light can be very high.

This is very telling, because all the nutrients other than CO2.......which is non limiting with emergent growth.........come from the sediment here. In my 180 Gal, it grows even better emergent on the wood so the sediment vs the water column is a non issue, just as long as there's enough of each nutrient and the key.......good ample CO2.

Excel or Easy carb etc works well by itself with lower light also.

I trim about 1-2x a month and keep it much lower than that rat's nest of Clive's above, haha.
It pulls up more and looks bad if you do not keep on it.

I used curves scissors and takes me about 10 min to do the trim.

This tank above will look nice and be entirely filled in perhaps in a week or two.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (7 May 2009)

Actually , the leaf size should remain fairly much the same, maybe 10-20% smaller at most once you go to the submersed condition, this is due to less CO2.

A sign or reduced CO2 is progressively smaller and smaller growth at the tips of plants.

Funny, none of those stupid deficiency charts ever mention the signs of CO2 limitations/excesses............and all are based not on aquatic plants, but rather, terrestrial systems where light and CO2 are less variable and generally non limiting........

The DSM tanks I've done have not had reduced leaf sizes of any notable effects...........but I added a lot of CO2 and lowered the light.

As far as EI excess responses:
Years ago I suggested Mega Dosing.
This is where you add 2x the amount typically and then do a water change the following day to reset.
This fattens up the plants, and drives growth much faster than a typical routine might. Then you trim, garden more etc, and then get your photo shoot for the pictures etc. This was often about 2X EI dosing.

This was much more accepted back then, and we knew there was not this horse manure crap often said on line about how bad excess nutrients are, because the group I posted to was a lot more aware that excess does not = algae and we had already done lean methods. The question was more about the plants, not algae or critters. Those are not affected either, but some like to suggest it, or that adding excess nutrients is "wasteful" etc, but we can say this about using CO2 and higher light and these cause a lot more problems and labor issues than nutrients ever could. 

But some would rather not address the real issues...........

However, I and others went very high with the nutrients and never found any real upper limits/bounds........certainly none that induced algae, the main question at the time, and fish health and shrimps etc had the same conclusion.........basically it would be very difficult to go to toxic excess levels.

However, waste is still waste, and we simply do not have to go this high for most tanks, rather, start high and then reduce slowly and progressively till you get a negative plant response, then back up to the last prior higher level.

This is how to add just enough using EI.
you are still not limiting growth, but you are not wasting much either as far as nutrients(if you care).
If waste is an issue, then using non CO2 methods, Excel etc and certainly less light should be the focus, because then you use much less CO2/nutrients at the end of the day. 

You cannot logically argue for less is more/better while using high light/CO2 enrichment and then suggest less waste for nutrients..........economically and environmentally, you waste much less using less light. This is not a debate, this is a fact.

Stable management of lighting is also far easier and reduces and modifies labor much easier than any nutrient methods.
Sediment based nutrients also waste "less", so using a little water column + sediment sources works even better if this is a goal.

EI is not a large part here, the light, CO2 are, then sediment and/or water column, then there's plant choices, and other factors involved. All these other issues have large impacts on the dosing routines you do/chose.

It's not just about doing nutrients/wasting them.
After the arguments for toxicity for critters and algae blooms due to "excess" fell apart a few years ago, critics have decided to focus on the "waste" and " impact on ecology" aspects.

However, they did not address their own issues with light and CO2 and did not put any of that together. So these too have fallen apart, some simple common sense methods that where suggested all along are clearly there, it's not written in stone and is a myth promoted by folks other than myself.

This method for getting at "just enough" was how I and others arrived at the Trace dosing concentration, it was never with test kits.   This also adds just enough for each unique special tank and system, and does it without a single test kit.

If you look at ADA, they do the same thing, low light(but fools folks into thinking they have more than they think), rich sediments, lean water column ferts(but Amano himself told me to add more and more till the plants looked better, and then when that no longer improved, to stop at that amount, same thing I/others came up with many years prior independently), good CO2 and watching the plants and tank. Then large frequent water changes.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (7 May 2009)

Thx guys for the replies - i do add easy carbo when i can (25mls (not on a regular basic ie daily). I will start dosing every day "my mrs will" should I add more than 25 mls and is there anything else I can do to boost the HC.

Regards

Paul


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## Simon D (7 May 2009)

Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> Thx guys for the replies - i do add easy carbo when i can (25mls (not on a regular basic ie daily). I will start dosing every day "my mrs will" should I add more than 25 mls and is there anything else I can do to boost the HC.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Paul



That seems like massive overdosing. EasyCarbo dosage instructions state: "1ml per 50 litres per day, with a maximum of 2 ml per 50 litres per day in aquariums with lot of plants. Higher dosage levels are highly inadvisable."

I have read that one should dose as per the instructions, although I have a very heavily planted jungle and dose 3ml per 50 ltrs daily.

I've not read or seen the consequences of over dosing, so anyone got any ideas on this? 

Another question: Does addition of EasyCarbo affect Drop Checker colouration? I assume not but never seen it written in stone!


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## ceg4048 (8 May 2009)

Some plants don't respond well to Excel overdosing. Others don't respond well to dosing at all. Most other plants, including HC respond well to overdosing. As far as I'm aware the liquid degrades after about 24 hours so dosing every other day basically would mean that there are 24 hour gaps in which the available CO2 falls to only what's available diffused from atmosphere, which would be perhaps 8pp or so. For CO2 challenged plants this is never good so I'd suggest at least daily dosing.

Evidently the CO2 conversion is made internally so this shouldn't affect dropchecker readings very much.

One consequence of overdosing is that you wallet shrinks...  

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (8 May 2009)

Simon D said:
			
		

> Flyfisherman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Some plants don't respond well to Excel overdosing. Others don't respond well to dosing at all. Most other plants, including HC respond well to overdosing. As far as I'm aware the liquid degrades after about 24 hours so dosing every other day basically would mean that there are 24 hour gaps in which the available CO2 falls to only what's available diffused from atmosphere, which would be perhaps 8pp or so. For CO2 challenged plants this is never good so I'd suggest at least daily dosing.
> 
> Evidently the CO2 conversion is made internally so this shouldn't affect dropchecker readings very much.
> 
> ...



Following the above two replies - which is better Easy Carbo or Excel  :?:  and if I have been overdosing as hinted 25 mls why havn't I see rapid fattening / growth of HC. 

Regards

paul.


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## nry (8 May 2009)

EasyCarbo is the same thing as Excel...

As for overdosing it...it isn't actually liquid carbon.  If you read up on the ingredient it is a very weird bit of stuff.

It is nowhere near as good for plant growth as injected CO2, so to be honest, I'd not expect overdosing of Excel etc to show a massive change in growth rate of the plants.

And as for how long it lasts once in the aquarium - I believe it is the half-life of the product that is 24hours.  So, in short, after 24hours, half of what went in to the tank is still active.  After another 24hours you have 1/4 of the original dose.  After a further 24hours you have 1/8 of the original dose left.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (9 May 2009)

After reading all the replies, I have checked the amount of Co2 being pumped into the tank - estimation 4 - 5 bsp per second - but is going in that quick its hard to count, DC are greeny yellow, certainly a lighter colour than the reference solution, over dosing of Easy carbo, ferts as per EI dosing, 50% water change every week, filter ehiem 2080, co2 switch on at 12:30 and off at 22:00, lights on @ 14:00 and off @23:00.

Whats my next move :?:  :?:  :?:  :?: 

Regards

Paul.


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## ceg4048 (9 May 2009)

Wait a few weeks. Looks like you've made the right adjustments.

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (9 May 2009)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Wait a few weeks. Looks like you've made the right adjustments.
> 
> Cheers,



Clive 

I am doing nothing different now when compared with two weeks ago - as per previous article.

Regards
Paul


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## JamesM (9 May 2009)

You're up'ing your dosing aren't you? You wont see instant results - nothing good ever happens quickly in a planted tank


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (9 May 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> You're up'ing your dosing aren't you? You wont see instant results - nothing good ever happens quickly in a planted tank



JamesM

I am doing nothing different - the only things I have done is checks and reported my findings. Picy attached - taken tonight. I have shorten one of the water intake pipes (right hand side).






I did my usually water change this morning and for the first time tiny bubbles have remained on the HC all day - picy attached.





Regards

paul.


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## Nelson (9 May 2009)

hi paul,
i think your plants look really healthy.what are the crypts front left :?: 
thanks
neil


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## JamesM (10 May 2009)

Paul, you've confused me. Your original enquiry was about over dosing EI, which is not a problem at all.

There's no way you should be dosing 25ml of EasyCarbo daily. 2-4ml daily per 50 litres is more than enough ime for a tank more heavily planted than your own.

You wont see any instant results from tweaking anything, so be patient and monitor your plants. In two or so weeks if things are the same, try increasing dosing and co2 and wait another two or so weeks. If co2 can't be increased, lower your lighting and adjust flow to get co2 and ferts around the tank for efficiently. If that fails, put the tank and equipment on eBay.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (10 May 2009)

JamesM said:
			
		

> Paul, you've confused me. Your original enquiry was about over dosing EI, which is not a problem at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Is the last statement stating the all my enquiries and myself are not welcome on this forum anymore, please advise


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## Nelson (10 May 2009)

hi,
that last statement doe's sound a bit harsh :? .i kind of hope it was in jest.i've learnt a lot from your questions and the answers you've got.
neil


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## aaronnorth (10 May 2009)

HC can melt when first introduced, Mark (saintly) had this problem but it soon recovered.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4169

also, HC responds well to adding extra Nitrate.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (10 May 2009)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> HC can melt when first introduced, Mark (saintly) had this problem but it soon recovered.
> viewtopic.php?f=35&t=4169
> 
> also, HC responds well to adding extra Nitrate.


Arron

KN03 - correct.

Regards
paul.


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## JamesM (10 May 2009)

Paul, my last comment was light hearted as we've all had these problems and I'm pretty sure more than a few people have considered giving in and selling everything. Patience is what's needed.

25ml of EasyCarbo is still way too much imo. Co2 itself wont fatten any plants up, it just allows the plant to uptake more nutrients. If the nutrients aren't there, the plants will suffer and starve. Who advised you to add 25ml of EasyCarbo?


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