# Heavy planting equals no cycle?



## Mark.A (25 Apr 2020)

I have had a few people tell me that you don't need to cycle a planted tank if you plant heavily. I have a question about this - if I plant heavily should I be able to add all my fish at once? ...and they won't suffer any ammonia / nitrite poisoning?


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## zozo (25 Apr 2020)

The term cycling is a bit strange and invites to have misconceptions about it. It would be easier if this generally accepted term would be changed into "Established" or "Matured"

Ammonia and Nitrite have to come from somewhere!? In most cases, it is in the substrate either pre fertilized or high in organics and leaches back into the water column. Then it needs to be waited out or flushed out with the help of regular extra water changes.

If you use an inert substrate, then what's not put in can't come out. 

We need a healthy bacteria population in the substrate to convert Ammonia and Nitrite into Nitrate... This takes several weeks to develop. The longer you wait for the better. All tho 6 weeks is a generally accepted period, even tho we can't really prove it. Anyway...

Plants indeed do take up Ammonia and likely Nitrite directly as a food source... But consider it doesn't do this from the get-go. 99% of the available aquarium plants are in fact Bog plants able to live submerged and for convenience, a nursery grows these plants emerged, as a Bog plant. The submerged form of the plant is morphologically completely different, then if the emerged form suddenly is put underwater it can not sufficiently utilize this new atmosphere. It needs to change its morphology, simply grow it. Old Bog form will die, new Aquatic form needs to grow. This process is called transitioning phase and takes time. Actually in this transition old emerged growth dies faster than new aquatic growth will appear. In this period, with old-growth dying melting and rotting, will create extra bioload in the water column and can cause Ammonia or Nitrite spikes.

Thus even with an inert substrate, initially, as long as the plants are not established there still is ammonia source present. And the plants and its new growth are yet not mature enough to take it up.

Adding fish in this period, guess what you need? Food and what do fish do after consuming this, they poop. Food that is not eaten sinks to the bottom and rots, poop already containing Ammonia also sinks to the bottom and does the same. Again 2 Ammonia sources yet not accounted for.  

Does this answer the question?

IMHO, don't wait for 6 weeks, but care and wait for the plants to establish and mature and show sufficient healthy new aquatic growth... Does it have this within 6 weeks, then you are a hell of an aquarist if it doesn't then wait till it has?

The exception to the rule or 2nd option is, you could use only true aquatic plants, but as said if you can get any of the 1% available out there.


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## Mark.A (25 Apr 2020)

Thanks for the reply. I understand the nitrification process and that plants take up ammonia, it’s just that I’ve never not cycled a tank before adding fish. This relying on the plants bit is what I’m not clear on and whether they would support a full fish load, like fishless cycling does.


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## zozo (25 Apr 2020)

Not cycling an aquarium and stocking it prematurely is simply risking lives... They might be lucky or not...

Even if you could get your hands on a bunch of already transitioned plants from a fellow aquarist. Plants can suffer a transplant shock that it needs to recover from.

Simply said, if a plant is pulled from the pot out of its trusted environment, roots damaged etc. And put into new different parameters it kinda goes asleep for a while to slowly recover. It might never do and die...

If you want to rely on the plants then first make sure they are healthy and growing... We can not take it for granted they just are from day 1.


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## Tim Harrison (25 Apr 2020)

The tank will still need to cycle. Planting heavily allows the system to be cycled without using ammonia. Bacteria on plant roots leaves, and stems will inoculate the system with the right bacteria. Using ammonia doesn't necessarily encourage the right bacteria https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/need-help-with-new-tank.58530/page-3#post-574219 and https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bedside-aquarium.56709/page-4

It's never a good idea to add all the critters in one go either way. Always add them gradually so that the system has time to adjust.


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## Aqua360 (25 Apr 2020)

Also to build on what the guys above have said, the plant impact is kind of commensurate with the livestock, e.g 1 guppy won't have as much impact as an Oscar, so there's really a bit of measure needed to gauge what impact plants will have in the enclosed system, if that makes sense


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## dw1305 (25 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





Mark.A said:


> if I plant heavily should I be able to add all my fish at once?





Mark.A said:


> This relying on the plants bit is what I’m not clear on and whether they would support a full fish load, like fishless cycling does.





Tim Harrison said:


> It's never a good idea to add all the critters in one go either way. Always add them gradually so that the system has time to adjust.


I normally add the fish over time. It is belt and braces really. If I do need to add more fish than I would like in one hit, I make sure that I have a lot of floating plants and a large gas exchange surface..

cheers Darrel


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## Mark.A (25 Apr 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I normally add the fish over time. It is belt and braces really. If I do need to add more fish than I would like in one hit, I make sure that I have a lot of floating plants and a large gas exchange surface..
> 
> cheers Darrel


I’m used to adding them all at once as I normally do a fishless cycle.  Another reason for wanting to add them all at once is because I have to order them online.  I don’t have transport to get to an LFS.  With the expensive delivery costs when ordering livestock online it makes economic sense to order all the fish at once.  Splitting them into smaller orders would triple or even quadruple the cost of getting the fish.


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## tam (25 Apr 2020)

Some planted tanks use substrate that initially leaches ammonia - so they do cycle that way rather than skip it all together. Do you have other tanks? If so you can use filter media from another tank. Plants that have leaves at or above the surface are more efficient ammonia removers. Water changes are another factor - do more and your tank can cope with a bigger stock sooner. Likewise it depends what your stock is, if you have baby fish that are growing out or are intend to be lightly stocked at the end then it's more likely to work.


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## Mark.A (25 Apr 2020)

I’m using black sand with root fertiliser added.  I don’t have any other fish tanks.  Water changes are not a problem.  I will be doing 50% weekly anyway to reset the nutrients in the water but more is no problem. 

The tank is 32.5 gallon. It’s 32.5” x 15.75” x 15.35”.

These are the plants I plan to get from the start:

Anubias coffeefolia
Anubias nana petite
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
Nymphaea rubra
Cryptocoryne legroi
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green Gecko'
Ludwigia sp. Mini super red
Ludwigia arcuata
Java fern petite
Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig
Crinum Calamistratum
Spiky moss
Helanthium tenellum
Fissidens fontanus
Bucephalandra biblis
Bucephalandra caterina
Bucephalandra sekadau

These are the fish I plan to get:

2 German Blue Rams
30 Harlequin rasbora
1 Male Dwarf Gourami
6 Corydoras sterbai

Along with:

5 Nerite Snail
5 Amano Shrimp

I’m beginning to think it may be better to just get the plants first, leave it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add the fish gradually and just take the hit on the extra delivery costs.


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## Aqua360 (25 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> I’m using black sand with root fertiliser added.  I don’t have any other fish tanks.  Water changes are not a problem.  I will be doing 50% weekly anyway to reset the nutrients in the water but more is no problem.
> 
> The tank is 32.5 gallon. It’s 32.5” x 15.75” x 15.35”.
> 
> ...



If you do have to add fish all in one go, remember you can do water changes to account for the sudden bioload impact, then gradually lessen the water changes as the system establishes, until you're at a maintenance level and frequency. 

As long as you're matching parameters closely like temp, dechlorinating the water, you can pretty much water change with no Ill effects on the fish, it's another weapon in the arsenal


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## Zeus. (25 Apr 2020)

zozo said:


> The exception to the rule or 2nd option



Or third option is to cycle (Established" or "Matured) your filter media before you fill/add your plants.

I did this with my filter and the 'household green waste bin' fill bin with water attach filter and run for about six weeks and add a supply of waste for it to process, few fish flakes occasionally and a glass or urine a day did the trick for me, added inmates (few at a time at first) within a week, but had done a 12 week DSM also which is another option also


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## Sammy Islam (25 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> I’m using black sand with root fertiliser added.  I don’t have any other fish tanks.  Water changes are not a problem.  I will be doing 50% weekly anyway to reset the nutrients in the water but more is no problem.
> 
> The tank is 32.5 gallon. It’s 32.5” x 15.75” x 15.35”.
> 
> ...



I would:
1) set up the tank with lots of plants, ideally with a decent amount of stem plants.
2) wait a week then order the snails and shrimp, they will arrive by the end of week 2 or so.
3) wait another week and order the half the rasboras
4) wait 2 weeks and order the rest.

I wouldn't add that many inhabitants at once in general, especially if any of the snails die it could wipe out your tank. Also adding any established bio media would be a life saver.


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## zozo (25 Apr 2020)

Zeus. said:


> and a glass or urine a day did the trick for me


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## zozo (25 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> economic sense to order all the fish at once.



Not sure if nature is into politics?...


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## Mark.A (25 Apr 2020)

zozo said:


> Not sure if nature is into politics?...


Neither am I!  Not sure what that has to do with being economical though?


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## zozo (25 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> Neither am I!  Not sure what that has to do with being economical though?



Well, the term Eco goes a long way nowadays... But from an old fashion standpoint of view, Economics is the social science that studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.

Now the question, does the aquarium serve us or do we serve the aquarium?

Is the thin red line in between an opinion?


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## Mark.A (25 Apr 2020)

zozo said:


> Well, the term Eco goes a long way nowadays... But from an old fashion standpoint of view, Economics is the social science that studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.
> 
> Now the question, does the aquarium serve us or do we serve the aquarium?
> 
> Is the thin red line in between an opinion?


Guess I’m just not that old fashioned. Economical to me is trying to do something the least wasteful way.

In answer to your question - both. It’s a symbiotic relationship.


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## zozo (25 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> It’s a symbiotic relationship.



Spot on!!

But don't play god in the process...


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## alto (25 Apr 2020)

Which shops are you ordering plants and fish from - both would be able to send you some “cycled” filter media if so inclined, so I’d ask  
Even a small amount of “starter culture” is useful

From your previous thread where you discuss the Fluval Flex 123


> though it is the last one and is being used on display


- was the tank just on display out of the box, or actually running as a fish/plants display tank?

Phosphate thread from Tuesday indicate tank is already running  - I’m assuming it’s scaped with substrate, stone and wood in place



> I’m going to be using inert black aquarium sand for the substrate, also due for delivery this week. I will be seeding the substrate with plant fertiliser and will top it up with root tabs when needed. I will also be dosing TNC Complete. The fertiliser is also due for delivery this week as is the doser that I will be using.




A couple of considerations with this Flex
- the actual footprint for fish is significantly smaller than the actual tank dimensions (unless you’ve removed the filter section and are using an external filter?)
- lighting is very low on this particular Flex (Fluval makes the oddest choices - while significantly reducing the lighting on this Flex, they continue to promote it with box photos of thriving plants that are unlikely to grow (in this manner) with the stock lighting )

Fluval Flex profile page  
https://fluvalaquatics.com/us/flex-32/

Given this I’ve changed my mind from what I initially intended to write, I suggest focusing on plant growth, then adding fish once plants are established and actively growing

I think you can easily make the fish numbers work, even adding all fish in one go - just begin with smaller juvenile fish and do daily 25% - 50% water changes the first week, then alternate day etc
(I use Seachem Ammonia Alert if unsure about the bioload capacity) 

I would add at least 10-12 shrimp, they really are MUCH happier in a group 
(I’m confused how the minimum 10-12 shrimp “requirement” has vanished from shrimpkeeping - it’s no different than selling/buying 3 tetras etc



Mark.A said:


> Anubias coffeefolia
> Anubias nana petite
> Anubias barteri var. nana 'Pinto'
> Nymphaea rubra
> ...



I suggest adding L sessiliflora as a fast growing (very tolerant indicator) plant - you can leave this in its pot if you don't want to incorporate into your scape - if you observe growth with long internodes or poor growth, I’d increase the stock lighting 


The Blue Rams and Dwarf Gourami are the only “difficult” fish, intensive breeding has created fish stock that is much more sensitive than wild caught versions, and both have significant instance of (relatively species specific) iridovirus 


As you won’t see the fish beforehand, and there may be some unexpected shipping stress, I suggest having some basic medications on hand
eSHa Exit (external parasites) - if possible find a formalin/malachite green treatment 
eSHa 2000 (bacterial infections, mostly effective for external bacterial challenge)
eSHa ndx  (internal parasites including some worms)


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## jaypeecee (25 Apr 2020)

Hi @Mark.A 

At the risk of mentioning something that may bring me hate mail, I cannot stay silent on this one. I use Tetra _SafeStart_ to kick-start the biological filter. This is a well-proven product. I have 'cycled' a tank in 6 days using this product. After this, the biological filter _and_ plants can share the load of processing nitrogenous waste from fish, substrate, etc. And, given time, the bacteria used in _SafeStart_ will take a back-seat view and let Archaea take over.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (25 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> German Blue Rams



Hi @Mark.A 

GBRs will benefit from a tank that's been up-and-running for at least three months. I have kept and bred GBRs and they need a good deal of TLC!

JPC


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## Mark.A (26 Apr 2020)

alto said:


> Which shops are you ordering plants and fish from - both would be able to send you some “cycled” filter media if so inclined, so I’d ask
> Even a small amount of “starter culture” is useful


The plants I am looking at ordering are from a guy running a Facebook group “World of Mosses”, he gets very good comments and seems to give good value and healthy plants.

The fish I am looking at getting from www.tropco.co.uk they seem legit and have all the fish I am after.



alto said:


> From your previous thread where you discuss the Fluval Flex 123 - was the tank just on display out of the box, or actually running as a fish/plants display tank?


The tank was on display but not running.



alto said:


> Phosphate thread from Tuesday indicate tank is already running  - I’m assuming it’s scaped with substrate, stone and wood in place


Correct.



alto said:


> A couple of considerations with this Flex
> - the actual footprint for fish is significantly smaller than the actual tank dimensions (unless you’ve removed the filter section and are using an external filter?)


No, I haven’t removed the internal filter.



alto said:


> - lighting is very low on this particular Flex (Fluval makes the oddest choices - while significantly reducing the lighting on this Flex, they continue to promote it with box photos of thriving plants that are unlikely to grow (in this manner) with the stock lighting )


Yes, I know. This is why I have all easy, low light plants.



alto said:


> The Blue Rams and Dwarf Gourami are the only “difficult” fish, intensive breeding has created fish stock that is much more sensitive than wild caught versions, and both have significant instance of (relatively species specific) iridovirus





jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Mark.A
> 
> GBRs will benefit from a tank that's been up-and-running for at least three months. I have kept and bred GBRs and they need a good deal of TLC!
> 
> JPC


I have kept both the rams and the gourami several times before successfully so I have no worries that I’ll be able to keep them.



alto said:


> As you won’t see the fish beforehand, and there may be some unexpected shipping stress, I suggest having some basic medications on hand
> eSHa Exit (external parasites) - if possible find a formalin/malachite green treatment
> eSHa 2000 (bacterial infections, mostly effective for external bacterial challenge)
> eSHa ndx  (internal parasites including some worms)


Yeah I have.


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## alto (26 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> Yes, I know. This is why I have all easy, low light plants.


I’ve done setups in Spec 19, Flex 37 & 54, but hadn’t realized that lighting was significantly lower in the Flex 123


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## Mark.A (26 Apr 2020)

alto said:


> I’ve done setups in Spec 19, Flex 37 & 54, but hadn’t realized that lighting was significantly lower in the Flex 123


Yeah, the one LED strip that the Flex 123L comes supplied with is perfect for low light. If you want medium light then there is the option to add a second LED strip. With the smaller Flex tanks the LED lighting supplied is already meant to be enough for medium light. This is so that those who don't want medium light don't have to pay the extra cost of the second LED strip in with the tank purchase.


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## dw1305 (26 Apr 2020)

Hi all,





Mark.A said:


> I’m beginning to think it may be better to just get the plants first, leave it for 4 to 6 weeks and then add the fish gradually





alto said:


> I suggest adding L sessiliflora as a fast growing (very tolerant indicator) plant


That is what I do. I've gone to using <"_Ceratophyllum demersum_ as my stem">, because it is a quick grower and easy to remove. The "grow in" period is really the bit that is important, adding the fish slowly is just a precautionary measure. 

If you think about traditional ammonia based cycling  you are measuring the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and they tell you when your tank is cycled. In some ways yo are doing the same thing when you plant the tank up and let it grow in, but in this case you are watching the plant growth. Watching plant growth is just a lot more straightforward. 





Mark.A said:


> These are the plants I plan to get from the start:
> 
> Anubias coffeefolia
> Anubias nana petite
> ...


You definitely need a floating plant, particularly if you want to add the fish in one go. Because these aren't CO2 limited (<"the leaves are in the air">) they can potentially suck up a lot more ammonia. I like <"Amazon Frogbit"> (_Limnobium laevigatum_), but _Salvinia or Pistia_ would perform the same role. Have a look at <"Do we really need ....">. 





dw1305 said:


> The Amazon Frogbit that had really been pumping iron (and everything else) was @Timon Vogelaar's (below) (from <"An Iwagumi .....">)


cheers Darrel


.


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## dw1305 (26 Apr 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> At the risk of mentioning something that may bring me hate mail, I cannot stay silent on this one. I use Tetra _SafeStart_ to kick-start the biological filter.


It definitely isn't <"going to do any harm">, whether it makes any difference is probably going  to depend upon <"how it is produced">. 

My guess is that there are a number of ways of getting to a <"fish-safe environment">, it is back to the <"shades of grey world"> with lots of variables.  

I don't really care how people get there, I just want them to end up with a <"planted tank, which always has plenty of dissolved oxygen"> in the water.

I know (from my day job) that you can successfully <"process wastes with a really high BOD"> if you can get enough oxygen into the water. Add in plants and you have increased that capacity by <"another order of magnitude">. 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2020)

Mark.A said:


> I have kept both the rams and the gourami several times before successfully so I have no worries that I’ll be able to keep them.



Hi @Mark.A 

Just thought I should check. 

JPC


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## jaypeecee (26 Apr 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,It definitely isn't <"going to do any harm">, whether it makes any difference is probably going  to depend upon <"how it is produced">.



Hi @dw1305 

Tetra _SafeStart_ can certainly make a _big_ difference to cycle duration. I know this from my own experiments plus hands-on experience. I am also a member of A N Other Forum where _SafeStart _is the 'go to' choice of all its members. Before settling on _SafeStart_, I tried several other bottled bacteria products - many of which were as much use as a chocolate teapot! Obviously, I don't know how _SafeStart_ is produced. Nor do I need to. I have read articles by Dr Tim Hovanec in which he talks about some of the challenges of keeping bacteria alive in a bottle. What is curious about the _SafeStart_ bottle is the transparent window on its side. Its purpose is to view how much is in the bottle. But, nitrifying bacteria can be killed by light - particularly in the blue and UV part of the spectrum. If a supplier or the end-user stores this in a brightly-lit location, my hunch is that this could affect the bacteria population.

JPC


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## dean (27 Apr 2020)

I would add all the plants snails and any shrimp 
Leave it 2 weeks so you can get the lighting right and sort Out any algae problems 
Then I would take some mature media from an existing tank and add that when the fish arrive 

I would also have floating plants to help out for the first 6 months if not forever 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Aqua360 (27 Apr 2020)

The "safe start" stuff, to my understanding keeps the ammonia at a low level, stressing the fish but not killing them while the bacteria play catch up to establish. 

Definitely not a good idea in shrimp tanks, where ammonia will kill them ridiculously quickly; nor is it the best for fish in my opinion, I don't really want to stress fish out more than necessary.

Different ways to skin a cat, but id say the very best results come to those with patience!


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## dw1305 (27 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





Aqua360 said:


> but id say the very best results come to those with patience!


My view as well. Just wait and let the tank grow in. 

I'm pretty sure it helps the fish acclimate as well, they can scatter into the plants if they need to, or shoal together under the floating plants if that makes them feel more comfortable. It also reduces "line of sight" aggression.

Because I use rain-water the tanks often have a reasonable cargo of _Daphnia, Cyclops _& Ostracods etc before the fish go in.  Which also gives you something to look at



When I added the <"_Copella sp_. and _Corydoras pygmaeus"> to_ the tank, it had been <"set up along time">, but for 99% of that time the filter wasn't running. The _Corydoras_ instantly disappeared and I didn't see more then one or two of them for the next ~week, but the _Copella_ were straight out of the bag and trying to eat anything that moved, while I was still coaxing the catfish out of their bag.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (27 Apr 2020)

Aqua360 said:


> The "safe start" stuff, to my understanding keeps the ammonia at a low level, stressing the fish but not killing them while the bacteria play catch up to establish.



Hi @Aqua360 

_SafeStart_ does not stress the fish for two reasons:

1 If used as suggested, this will be for _fishless_ cycling. But, it can be added to a tank at any time of one's choosing.

2 Why would Dr Tim Hovanec, the developer of _SafeStart_ and himself a keen fishkeeper, add anything that would cause stress to fish? Or any other tank inhabitants for that matter?

At the end of the day, if people choose not to use nitrifying bacteria starters, so be it. I have no commercial interests in _SafeStart_. I just know it 'does what it says on the tin'. Plastic bottle, actually.

JPC


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## Aqua360 (27 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Aqua360
> 
> _SafeStart_ does not stress the fish for two reasons:
> 
> ...



Can you prove it doesn't stress fish? I can't prove it does stress them, but i'd think more members than not would agree with me, perhaps not.

1) why use it for fishless cycling, does that not nullify the point in it, it doesn't actually introduce living bacteria; so I don't believe it does cycle a tank faster. 

2) £££


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## jaypeecee (27 Apr 2020)

Aqua360 said:


> I don't believe it does cycle a tank faster.



Fine.

JPC


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## Wookii (29 Apr 2020)

Aqua360 said:


> Can you prove it doesn't stress fish? I can't prove it does stress them, but i'd think more members than not would agree with me, perhaps not.
> 
> 1) why use it for fishless cycling, does that not nullify the point in it, it doesn't actually introduce living bacteria; so I don't believe it does cycle a tank faster.
> 
> 2) £££



I think you might be getting confused between products. Tetra Safe Start is a live bacteria additive.

I tried it with tank start up whilst cycling, but didn’t feel it increased the cycling speed beyond standard natural cycling. I certainly wouldn’t want to use it to add fish instantly to a brand new tank as directed on the bottle.


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## jaypeecee (29 Apr 2020)

Wookii said:


> Tetra Safe Start is a live bacteria additive...I tried it with tank start up whilst cycling, but didn’t feel it increased the cycling speed beyond standard natural cycling.



Hi @Wookii 

OK, that's fair enough. I have a few observations:

1 Perhaps you tried _SafeStart_ in a planted tank where the plants were taking up a high proportion of the nitrogen compounds.

2 _SafeStart_ comes into its own when fishless cycling a tank _from scratch_. I use ammonium chloride crystals to obtain a starting Total Ammonia (NH3 + NH4) of 2.0 ppm. After it has done its job, then that is the time to start adding fish and plants.

3 Was the _SafeStart_ 'in date'?

4 Did you store it in a bright light setting?

JPC


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## Wookii (29 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> OK, that's fair enough. I have a few observations:
> 
> ...



I cycled the tank before adding plants and lighting - you may remember us discussing it before Christmas.

The Tropica Soil powder I used as substrate was leaching plenty of ammonia, so I never needed to add an external source.

It was a brand new in date bottle, from Pets At Home - it went from shop to tank within an hour.


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## Aqua360 (29 Apr 2020)

Wookii said:


> I think you might be getting confused between products. Tetra Safe Start is a live bacteria additive.
> 
> I tried it with tank start up whilst cycling, but didn’t feel it increased the cycling speed beyond standard natural cycling. I certainly wouldn’t want to use it to add fish instantly to a brand new tank as directed on the bottle.



Just because it says it's living bacteria in a bottle, is it actually? I'm not trying to be awkward, but as a marketer myself, anything can be twisted.


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## jaypeecee (29 Apr 2020)

Hi @Wookii


Wookii said:


> I cycled the tank before adding plants and lighting - you may remember us discussing it before Christmas.



My memory isn't what it used to be. So, apologies, I don't remember our discussion.



Wookii said:


> The Tropica Soil powder I used as substrate was leaching plenty of ammonia, so I never needed to add an external source.



OK, there may be a clue there. If Total Ammonia was greater than 5 ppm, that may cause a problem. If that was the case, then that would be a point in favour of using plants to establish a safe environment for fish and other inhabitants. Do you have any ammonia measurements from that point in time?



Wookii said:


> It was a brand new in date bottle, from Pets At Home - it went from shop to tank within an hour.



OK, so there shouldn't have been a problem there.

I want to make the point that I'll use whatever works best when first setting up a tank. Whether that be _SafeStart_ or XYZ is neither here nor there.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (29 Apr 2020)

Aqua360 said:


> Just because it says it's living bacteria in a bottle, is it actually? I'm not trying to be awkward, but as a marketer myself, anything can be twisted.



Hi @Aqua360 

I think most people here on UKAPS are well aware of marketing spiel. Unless someone has access to a scanning electron microscope (SEM), it is impossible to see these bacteria. So, I rely on what they are supposed to do. Therefore, I add Product X to a tank and it's supposed to convert ammonia firstly into nitrite and then nitrate. If measurements show that this is happening, then Product X is bona fide as far as I'm concerned.

FYI, please see this link for further info:

https://www.tetra.net/en-gb/products/tetra-safestart

JPC


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## Aqua360 (29 Apr 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Aqua360
> 
> I think most people here on UKAPS are well aware of marketing spiel. Unless someone has access to a scanning electron microscope (SEM), it is impossible to see these bacteria. So, I rely on what they are supposed to do. Therefore, I add Product X to a tank and it's supposed to convert ammonia firstly into nitrite and then nitrate. If measurements show that this is happening, then Product X is bona fide as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> ...



Do what works for you by all means, as anyone should.

For me I'll wait for the person with the SEM to chime in


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## jaypeecee (29 Apr 2020)

Aqua360 said:


> For me I'll wait for the person with the SEM to chime in



I have used an SEM many years ago. Mind-boggling what you can see with one of those - if you have a spare million quid, that is!

JPC


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## dw1305 (29 Apr 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> Unless someone has access to a scanning electron microscope (SEM), it is impossible to see these bacteria.


The good news is that you don't need an SEM anymore, you can look for <"specific gene sequences that code for ammonia oxidation etc">. This is how they've recently found the whole cornucopia of <"novel nitrifying organisms">. 

So a bit cheaper than a SEM, you just need a PCR lab. 

cheers Darrel


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