# NT Labs GH minerals up



## HiNtZ (10 Sep 2018)

I emailed NT Labs to understand better what the composition of their "minerals up" is and all I got back was this:



> Many thanks for your enquiry.  Our GH – Minerals Up product contains a unique blend of minerals to safely increase the GH of your pond to provide the optimal conditions for growth, metabolism and other cellular processes.
> 
> 
> I’m afraid I am unable to provide you with a list of the exact composition of this product in much the same way that Coca-Cola wouldn’t provide you with the exact composition of one of their drinks and KFC wouldn’t provide you the exact composition of their blend of herbs & spices.
> ...



Comparing chemicals to food immediately makes me suspect this guy is no chemist. In fact, kfc and coca cola list their ingredients and nutritional content at the very least. 

This packet has nothing! No mention of Ca, Mg, K... Or what form it's in. Is it carbonate or sulfate? What ratio?? Even the dosing instructions are ambiguous.

Anyone recommend a lab where I can send this stuff to for a breakdown?


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## Edvet (10 Sep 2018)

Sounds like they are buying and rebranding some commercial product.


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## HiNtZ (10 Sep 2018)

Edvet said:


> Sounds like they are buying and rebranding some commercial product.



It wouldn't surprise me. Maybe the supplier is keeping it a secret from them and even they don't know the composition. Me personally I wouldn't put my name to a product I was reselling without knowing what it contained.

I'm also quite concerned that there are ZERO ingredients listed. I can   understand why they wouldn't give exact details of ratios, but contents?? That's a standard. I'll be contacting a couple of governing bodies and regulators for chemical packaging requirements to see if there is a violation here somewhere. The new corrosives legislation set to come into force in the UK might have an effect on their labelling. Of course, there shouldn't be anything at all corrosive in the packet but I'm sure there are guidelines being flouted here. What if a kid eats a handful of it and the parent takes the packet to the doctor as a precaution.....? How are they going to make a quick judgement on the toxicity of what has been ingested without even an ingredients list?!


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## HiNtZ (10 Sep 2018)

Here's the label.


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2018)

Ask them for the material safety data sheet (MSDS) that must be supplied with all chemicals. This will contain a basic analysis of its contents.


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2018)

Hi all,





HiNtZ said:


> Anyone recommend a lab where I can send this stuff to for a breakdown?


It is pretty easy to test for the group I & group II metal cations, you can either use <"ICP or AAS">, so any water testing lab. would be able to do it, but it won't be cheap. 





Edvet said:


> Sounds like they are buying and rebranding some commercial product


Definitely could be, and that would be my guess.

Having said that the mark-up on these products is absolutely immense, so they may be making their own mix from easily obtainable chemicals like MgSO4.7H2O, CaCl2.6H2O, NaCl and KHCO3.

Calcium chloride, sodium chloride and magnesium sulphate are about £1 per kg wholesale, potassium bicarbonate is about £2 per kilo. Sodium bicarbonate would be about £1 per kilo and you could potentially buy less pure grades of salt (NaCl) for, literally, pennies per kilo. 

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (10 Sep 2018)

ian_m said:


> Ask them for the material safety data sheet (MSDS) that must be supplied with all chemicals. This will contain a basic analysis of its contents.



Very good point! I've E-mailed them already to get their thoughts at least on the lack of ingredients. I'll see what they come back with first - maybe they will be forthcoming with the data. I must check the legislation for their obligations as a supplier/distributor. 



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,It is pretty easy to test for the group I & group II metal cations, you can either use <"ICP or AAS">, so any water testing lab. would be able to do it, but it won't be cheap. Definitely could be, and that would be my guess.



I suspected cost would be an issue.... to be honest, with the array of other boosters on the market that almost always give you the ingredients, why should I actually bother? It's like they think that as soon as their magic ratio is known that their sales will drop over night because everyone will be making their own! 



dw1305 said:


> Having said that the mark-up on these products is absolutely immense, so they may be making their own mix from easily obtainable chemicals like MgSO4.7H2O, CaCl2.6H2O, NaCl and KHCO3.
> 
> Calcium chloride, sodium chloride and magnesium sulphate are about £1 per kg wholesale, potassium bicarbonate is about £2 per kilo. Sodium bicarbonate would be about £1 per kilo and you could potentially buy less pure grades of salt (NaCl) for, literally, pennies per kilo.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I'm guessing since KH isn't mentioned that would point to there being no carbonates? So in effect, with a bit of deduction we can guess what's not in this mix from that alone. Is there any way to check if its calcium sulfate or chloride?


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## HiNtZ (10 Sep 2018)

Interesting reply:



> Thank you for your comments regarding our GH & Minerals Up product.  Your complaint has been noted and logged.
> 
> 
> By law, we are obliged to clearly communicate hazards that products may possess where hazards exist.  Non-hazardous products therefore do not bear such warnings.  Furthermore, the “Classification, Labelling and Packaging Regulations” (EC 1272/2008) does not apply to veterinary medications, however, we still feel that is it important to convey what risks may be present, so apply this regulation to our medications too.
> ...



I've now asked for the MSDS.


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## Edvet (10 Sep 2018)

If it are "veterinairy medications" i am quite sure there is a host of testing required as is mandatory labelling


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> I'm guessing since KH isn't mentioned that would point to there being no carbonates?


Yes quite likely, it is only potassium and sodium (bi)carbonates that are soluble carbonates, but if it doesn't mention dKH, it won't contain them.

It is likely to <"contain some NaCl">,  the companies write things about "osmotic effects", but my suspicion would be they add it as a cheap bulking agent. 





HiNtZ said:


> So in effect, with a bit of deduction we can guess what's not in this mix from that alone. Is there any way to check if its calcium sulfate or chloride?


It is very likely to be calcium chloride (CaCl2.6H2O), purely because calcium sulphate (CaSO4.2H2O) isn't very soluble in water.  These are the solubilities (calcium sulphate will be the dihydrate when you use it, and the calcium chloride the hexahydrate).

Calcium sulphate solubility:
0.21g/100mL at 20 °C (anhydrous)
0.24 g/100mL at 20 °C (dihydrate)

Calcium chloride solubility:
81.1 g/100 mL 25 °C (hexahydrate)

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (10 Sep 2018)

I got the MSDS but nothing listed on there as to what it is.....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-S3FwfLrLBsdzVrQlRSNjVoZ2FoaTV1N1RyNmM3VHJfcF9F


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## sparkyweasel (10 Sep 2018)

"Identified Use(s)             Not known.
Uses Advised Against     Not known."
Sounds likie good stuff


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## Oldguy (10 Sep 2018)

Calcium chloride is a waste product in the heavy chemical industry and would make a good 'filler'. Simple qualitative analysis of chlorides and sulphates is a non starter with industrial grade chemicals due to their ubiquitous presence in most things. Qualitative analyses may well be expensive especially to prove a point. I am always suspicious of 'tonic salts & conditioners'. It is a sobering thought that the most expensive component in the production of over the counter products is usually the container.


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## ian_m (10 Sep 2018)

You can make your own GH booster far more easily so you can control exactly what is in it.

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> I got the MSDS





sparkyweasel said:


> "Identified Use(s) Not known.Uses Advised Against Not known.


That made me laugh, that isn't even a token effort and I can't imagine it is sufficient. All salts will have a freely available MSDS sheet, often with a <"quoted Lc50 value"> , so I can't see how they can get away with that. 





Oldguy said:


> Simple qualitative analysis of chlorides and sulphates is a non starter with industrial grade chemicals due to their ubiquitous presence in most things.


Yes, soluble anions are more problematic, particularly monovalent ones like chloride (Cl-) and nitrate (NO3-), you can measure them with an <"ion selective electrode">, but they aen't every day bits of kit. When you add a cation you are always going to add an anion, and there just aren't that many suitable anions.

That is partially why I like conductivity as a measure, it doesn't tell you anything very useful, but if you have low conductivity water you know you don't have much of anything.  





Oldguy said:


> Calcium chloride is a waste product in the heavy chemical industry


Yes it is  a byproduct  of the <"Solvay process">, or you can manufacturer it by treating CaCO3 with conc. HCl. You can get pure grades for food use, it is <"E509">.





Oldguy said:


> I am always suspicious of 'tonic salts & conditioners'. It is a sobering thought that the most expensive component in the production of over the counter products is usually the container.





ian_m said:


> You can make your own GH booster far more easily so you can control exactly what is in it.


That is the truth, we just have to persuade people that it's true. I have a real problem with the advertising from a lot of sellers of these sorts of things, the most charitable you could be is to say that they are <"economical with the truth">.

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (11 Sep 2018)

So shall I stick it to the man? Or just let them get on with it..... I didn't quite like the attitude of anyone that replied to me from that company. They all sounded a bit pompous.


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## dw1305 (11 Sep 2018)

Hi all, 





HiNtZ said:


> So shall I stick it to the man? Or just let them get on with it..... I didn't quite like the attitude of anyone that replied to me from that company. They all sounded a bit pompous.


I don't think they've done themselves any favours as a company. 

I could test for the metals, but I'd need to run them through the AAS when people are running other samples, and I would have to use a bit of guess work for the metals levels in the salt mix.  

We don't have a chloride probe for the ISE (as @Oldguy says they are pretty much universal in water, so there isn't much interest in their presence or absence). Sulphates you can test for easily using barium chloride (BaCl2).

cheers Darrel


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## HiNtZ (11 Sep 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I don't think they've done themselves any favours as a company.
> 
> I could test for the metals, but I'd need to run them through the AAS when people are running other samples, and I would have to use a bit of guess work for the metals levels in the salt mix.
> 
> ...



Well I for one will not use it.... if you want a sample, let me know


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