# pipefish B&B



## killi69 (6 Jan 2013)

This journal does not begin with tank dimensions or design concepts. It all started when I was in the LFS after work one evening and spotted some very interesting looking fish in one of the tanks;






I googled the fish - Enneacampus ansorgii - and to my surprise, it came from the Cameroon region. I maintain a tank mainly with killi species from Cameroon, so I immediately thought these species might make a very interesting addition to my tank and started thinking about the suitability of this fish.



The guy who runs the LFS told me he that had ordered these in as a one-off for a friend and had some left over. With only a few minutes left before closing time, I quickly tried to find out more information by googling the fish on my phone - the guy in the shop knew nothing about them. I quickly established that these fish were not easy. I read they were slow feeders that live in thick vegetation, need live foods and are not suitable for a community tank as they are likely to be out-competed at feeding time by other fish.

I had recently overcome a similar situation with another species, Microctenopoma ansorgii, which was also described as a shy fish not suitable for a community tank due mainly to its slow feeding habits. I had worked out a feeding system that allows me to successfully maintain them alongside my boisterous collection of killifish by creating a feeding frenzy in one area while squirting live and frozen foods via a large pipette directly into the plant mass where the Microctenopomas hang out. I figured that I could try to feed the pipefish in the same way and that my tank full of plants and wood would be suitable environment for them.




So I bought four fish. The man in the shop did not know the difference between males and females so I chose two with the brightest colours (red and some blue) and two with the least coloration in the hope of selecting at least one pair.




After careful acclimatisation, I introduced the pipefish to the tank.






They looked fantastic and seemed happy exploring their new home.







I took some footage of the pipefish just after I had released them into the tank. Note the interest shown by a female Fundulopanchax gardneri killi half way through the video.

While the pipefish were acclimatising and exploring their new home, I spent some time searching the net for more information about their maintenance. Not much was available, but it was clear that keeping pipefish was even more complicated than I had originally thought. Apparently they have no stomachs and need constant supply of live food.

With dread I was watching as the killis began to pay more and more attention to the pipefish. They started picking at the pipefish who would then lie flat and/or withdraw. As more killis were encircling the pipefish, one large female grabbed a pipefish by its head as if it was a large worm and struggled with it for a couple of seconds before letting go.

I had clearly made a big mistake buying these fish for my killi tank and within an hour I had caught three of them with the fourth one captured the following day. I now felt responsible for them and figured I was able to give them a better chance than if they were to go back to the LFS.

I was totally unprepared however – I did not have a spare tank or a matured spare filter. I did have a small plastic crate which I hastily set up as a temporary asylum with some ferns and a piece of wood from my main tank, as well as a spare filter and heater. I carried out daily water changes for the first two weeks.





Unfortunately, I lost two of the pipefish within the next week. I had read that pipefish easily succumb to infections caused by damaged skin following handling/ netting or attacks by other fish, so it’s possible that the attacks by the killifish could have caused fatal injuries. I also read that many pipefish die within a few weeks following purchase and that chances of survival increase after this period.

The staple diet is live glassworm which I enrich before feeding. In addition, I sieve daphnia and bloodworm and feed them the very smallest ones.



I also set up a brine shrimp hatching system, with one bottle for each stage of the process (hatching – growing on – enriching).




Fish get fed twice a day and I very often find myself spending more time preparing their food than my own  - certainly for breakfast!. They are very fussy eaters and hunt with lots of patience. They kind of stare ahead of them and might focus on one item swimming ahead/ above and totally ignore all the other live food floating all around them. They wait for something to float exactly passed their head, which, off course, usually it doesn’t. They need to have live food around them all the time. I have a load of ramshorn snails in the tank to clean up the live foods, especially the brine shrimp, that die before being eaten.

I also read an account of someone who maintained a colony of shrimps in their pipefish tank. The shrimps not only helped keep the tank clean, they also provided occasional live foods in the form of baby shrimplets. At the Aquatics Live exhibition, I bought ten Red Sakoras from Freshwater Shrimp, although to date I have not noticed any berried shrimps yet.




Meanwhile, I have started to gather the equipment needed to set up a permanent home for them. From an old set up, I still have a number of 40cm cube tanks left over, which I think will be a good size for this project. Large enough for the pipefish but small enough to help make sure that live foods remain relatively close to the fish.






I found a piece of wood at the Aquatic Design Centre which I quite liked.


 






Not quite sure yet about the design of the tank but it will be low tech and probably involve plenty of ferns on wood. Some of the threads I have read on other forums mentioned not having the planting too dense or you will not be able to see the pipefish that often. This is certainly the case at the moment when the fish are not visible at least half the time. I really do not mind not being able to see the fish, it makes it all more of a treat when you do. In fact, I still keep adding fern plantlets whenever I clean up my large tank. It would be good to have the pipefish in a proper aquarium though as visibility in a plastic crate is pretty rubbish!




About three weeks ago, ten weeks after I had bought the pipefish, I was looking through the plastic when I spotted something rather exciting.



Baby pipefish !!!!!




I was so excited, I could not believe it. The pictures above were actually taken on day three. When I first noticed the babies, they still had their egg yolk on their bellies. Here is a video taken on day four;


I did more research and found a thread on a Dutch forum where someone had successfully reared some young fry in the same tank as their parents and claimed pipefish do not eat their young. On most days, I could spot one or two of them and the most fry I could count at any one time was seven. I did not have any infusoria to hand but was happy to witness the babies eating freshly hatched brineshrimp after a few days.

With Christmas fastly approaching, I now faced a major challenge – a two week holiday booked to Holland. I had made arrangements with a neighbour to feed my fish/plants in my main tank but who on earth was going to spend 30 minutes every morning and evening preparing breakfast and dinner for my pipefish, setting up brineshrimp cultures, sieving live foods, not to mention cleaning the filter and doing a water change??? Certainly not my neighbour...

I was very fortunate that a friend volunteered to babysit them for me . I gave her a crash course in feeding live foods and setting up brine shrimp cultures. On day 11, we bagged up the pipefish, the babies, the shrimps, snails, plants and all the water to transport them all across London to her house. I counted eight babies in total;




Catching them was not a simple matter. Unfortunately, I killed two by sucking them up a pipette (turkey baster) sideways.

By the time, we packed up all the livestock, water and equipment, there was more (+heavier) luggage than what I needed for my own holiday!




It is now time to seriously start work on their permanent home. Later this week, I will be picking up the pipefish from my friend’s and will keep you up to date.

Thanks for reading,

Andre


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## Palm Tree (6 Jan 2013)

Wow, what amazing fish. I contemplated setting up a tank for freshwater pipefish but decided against it. Do you feed microworms, they sink to the bottom and can live for 24 hours underwater, they're also cheap and easy to culture.


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## killi69 (6 Jan 2013)

Palm Tree said:


> Wow, what amazing fish. I contemplated setting up a tank for freshwater pipefish but decided against it. Do you feed microworms, they sink to the bottom and can live for 24 hours underwater, they're also cheap and easy to culture.


Thank you, I must try this.  I used to culture them for my killi breeding.  I suppose vinegar eals might also work for the pipefish fry.  I will try to get hold of some cultures.


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## Iain Sutherland (6 Jan 2013)

Awesome start to a journal andre, the baby pipefish are very cool.  Its quite an acheivement and cant wait to see their permanent home all planted up.


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## Palm Tree (6 Jan 2013)

If you want to try microworms again pm me with your address and I will send you a starter culture.


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## hydrophyte (6 Jan 2013)

Really great write up! And that is a cool fish!


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## scapegoat (6 Jan 2013)

These are amazing do you think they are related to marine sea horses and pipefish? very similar facial expressions.
Good luck!


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## tim (6 Jan 2013)

Very cool fish wish you success with raising them


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## Gary Nelson (6 Jan 2013)

What a brilliant write up and journal and every photo showing what you reading! Fantastic mate, really good... They are lovely fish too


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## Dorian (6 Jan 2013)

Very cool unusual fish.


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## killi69 (6 Jan 2013)

Palm Tree said:


> If you want to try microworms again pm me with your address and I will send you a starter culture.


Thank you PalmTree, much appreciated!!  I will take you up on your offer and let you know if they eat them.


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## killi69 (6 Jan 2013)

easerthegeezer said:


> Awesome start to a journal andre, the baby pipefish are very cool. Its quite an achievement and cant wait to see their permanent home all planted up.


Cheers Iain, for your advice to date! As you can see I bought the light and filters we spoke about.  Really not sure yet about the planting. Yesterday, I thought I really need to hurry up and get the tank set up this week.  Today, I feel more like I should hang on, do more research and get inspiration from other tanks.  The piece of wood I have chosen is very large and imposing for a small tank, so I will need to plant it up carefully for it to work. Decisions, decisions...


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## killi69 (6 Jan 2013)

hydrophyte said:


> Really great write up! And that is a cool fish!


 


scapegoat said:


> These are amazing do you think they are related to marine sea horses and pipefish? very similar facial expressions. Good luck!


 


tim said:


> Very cool fish wish you success with raising them


 


Dorian said:


> Very cool unusual fish.


Hydrophyte, Scapegoat, Tim  and Dorian - thank you all for your posts.

I agree, they are really unusual and interesting fish.  I have read they are classified as 'primitive fish', not having developed stomachs.  Unfortunately, I don't see them move much.  When, or if, I see them, they are usually in a still position, with their heads sticking up out of the plants, pointed upwards and looking around for prey to float in their direction.

They are related to seahorses and breed in a similar way; apparently, they have a mating ritual which involves synchronised swimming and the laying of eggs on flat surfaces, which the male(!) then picks up in a special pouch he has for incubating the eggs!  The young are then born from this pouch a few weeks later.  Amazing stuff.


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## killi69 (6 Jan 2013)

Gary Nelson said:


> What a brilliant write up and journal and every photo showing what you reading! Fantastic mate, really good... They are lovely fish too


Hi Gary, thanks for your feedback. I have found it difficult to find the time to keep up a journal, especially over the last couple of months. Instead, I have just been taking pictures of key moments and managed to put them all together yesterday in the right order. Quite nice to have a record with photos to look back on.


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## Ady34 (6 Jan 2013)

Hi Andre,
an incredible story to date and a fairy tale outcome. The commitment to your fish has been matched in your journal so far and I'm looking forward to the next instalment/saga .....it's like reading a best selling novel!
good luck with the set up of their permanent home, your enthusiasm for these peculiar fish is clear and your level of care second to none. I'm impressed simply by the dedication it must have taken to actually catch these fish from your enormous and very heavily planted killi tank!
enjoy your well earned break!
i know another member, Gill had a journal running called 'folly of the pipefish' and he tried to keep these fish, I think unfortunately they succumbed in the end so I'm sure hell find this journal as fascinating as the rest of us when he sees it.
cheerio,
Ady.


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## sanj (6 Jan 2013)

Really interesting, as mentioned already reminded me of Gill and his pipe fish.

I hope you are successfull. At the moment your tank and Alistair's up coming build is keeping me interested. Keep us updated please.


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## kirk (6 Jan 2013)

realy enjoyed reading that. its nice to read about someone being honest and sharing experences when things start to go pear shaped. what a result in the end for all your effort baby pipe fish.they do remind me of sea horses .​


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## Iain Sutherland (7 Jan 2013)

Andre, only thing i might add is a shrimp guard to the intake of the eheim or your tiny babies might meet a premature end. They fit right onto the inlet nice and snug after removing the slotted cap. Might be worth posting a wanted ad as their are a lot floating about the forum... otherwise
 Crystal red shrimp Cherry Shrimp Fry Filter Mesh Aquarium filter guard 16mm | eBay
Also bare in mind that, if you didnt know, that trident will grow with the leaf flat to the light and being quite board is worth considering when planting.


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## Little-AL (7 Jan 2013)

Loving the sound of this tank - glad to hear such an uncommon species is getting such a willing owner! Good luck with it


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## killi69 (7 Jan 2013)

Ady34 said:


> Hi Andre, an incredible story to date and a fairy tale outcome. The commitment to your fish has been matched in your journal so far and I'm looking forward to the next instalment/saga .....it's like reading a best selling novel! good luck with the set up of their permanent home, your enthusiasm for these peculiar fish is clear and your level of care second to none. I'm impressed simply by the dedication it must have taken to actually catch these fish from your enormous and very heavily planted killi tank! enjoy your well earned break! i know another member, Gill had a journal running called 'folly of the pipefish' and he tried to keep these fish, I think unfortunately they succumbed in the end so I'm sure hell find this journal as fascinating as the rest of us when he sees it. cheerio, Ady.


Hi Ady, thanks for the encouragement, lets see if this fairytale will have a happy ending... I am picking up the pipefish tomorrow, so fingers crossed, I will keep you posted. I read Gill's post with great interest a while ago, from what I remember his species were different to mine but I am sure maintenance issues would be very similar. Hopefully mine are a bit easier and will last longer.



sanj said:


> Really interesting, as mentioned already reminded me of Gill and his pipe fish. I hope you are successful At the moment your tank and Alistair's up coming build is keeping me interested. Keep us updated please.


Cheers Sanj, well, I really liked your tank also. How about some updates yourself??



kap k said:


> really enjoyed reading that. its nice to read about someone being honest and sharing experiences when things start to go pear shaped. what a result in the end for all your effort baby pipe fish.they do remind me of sea horses .


Glad you enjoyed the read Kap k. I will try to be honest and keep you updated on all the pitfalls then. I do worry about what will happen if the LFS ever stops selling live glassworm as that seems to be their favourite food. The only shop I know in London selling them is ADC.



Little-AL said:


> Loving the sound of this tank - glad to hear such an uncommon species is getting such a willing owner! Good luck with it


Hi Little-AL, good to see you like the journal. Thanks for your comments.




easerthegeezer said:


> Andre, only thing i might add is a shrimp guard to the intake of the eheim or your tiny babies might meet a premature end. They fit right onto the inlet nice and snug after removing the slotted cap. Might be worth posting a wanted ad as their are a lot floating about the forum... otherwise Crystal red shrimp Cherry Shrimp Fry Filter Mesh Aquarium filter guard 16mm | eBay Also bare in mind that, if you didnt know, that trident will grow with the leaf flat to the light and being quite board is worth considering when planting.


Hey Iain, thanks for the tip. I actually have some spare from the big tank - they kept getting clogged up and reducing the flow - so will use one to protect the baby pipefish.

Last week, I had ordered some Trident ferns from Nat on this site, but cancelled the order yesterday (thank you Nat for your understanding) because I was thinking the same - they might be too overwelming for this tank. Still not sure about the planting arrangements for this wood. I was looking at icepotato89's 90cm naturescape journal and might have got some inspiration from the moss covered branches and bank of substrate reaching up to the base of the wood.


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## Iain Sutherland (7 Jan 2013)

That sounds cool, moss is quite high maintenance to keep looking good though, it really needs hovering a lot which may cause issues if the baby pipes hide in it?? Maybe branches of anubias nana and petite with some bolbitus for texture?  Anubia roots dangling down look a bit prehistoric to me which could work with well with pipefish??? Just tossing ideas around mate, hope you dont mind... Im also getting great results with enchinodorus NZ low tech under the 11w... not as deep as this tank though.  Sure it will be a cracker what ever you choose..


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## Lindy (8 Jan 2013)

Fantastic bit of wood and the fish are beautiful, just the kind of thing I'd go for if I had the skill,patience and time! Last time I saw pipefish was when snorkeling at Bon Island, Thailand. Brings back memories...


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## dw1305 (8 Jan 2013)

Hi all,


> moss is quite high maintenance to keep looking good though, it really needs hovering a lot which may cause issues if the baby pipes hide in it??


I'd probably avoid hoovering the moss, as the biofilm that grows/collects on it will supply a lot of small food (like Rotifers) that are suitable fry food. I've had good success (including really small fry) using a combination of an oversized sponge, Java moss and a lot of dead leaves. When you can't see the fry, you squeeze the sponge out into the Java moss every couple of days (sponges are a great source of rotifers), and soon as you can see them, you start adding "Banana worms" or "Vinegar eels" (the Vinegar eels are best for more surface orientated fry like _Betta_ spp.). The only thing you really need to watch out for is _Planaria_ in the Java moss.

PM me if you want some Vinegar Eels or Banana worms, they are a fair bit smaller even than Micro Worms.

cheers Darrel


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## sarahtermite (8 Jan 2013)

This is really inspiring. It's very honest of you to catalogue the whole process, warts and all, so that we can all learn. I have no doubt their final home will be fabulous! And I rather like it when you can't see the fish 100% of the time - makes you appreciate it all the more when you do.


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## killi69 (8 Jan 2013)

easerthegeezer said:


> Maybe branches of anubias nana and petite with some bolbitus for texture? Anubias roots dangling down look a bit prehistoric to me which could work with well with pipefish??? Just tossing ideas around mate, hope you dont mind... Im also getting great results with enchinodorus NZ low tech under the 11w... not as deep as this tank though. Sure it will be a cracker what ever you choose..


Hi Iain, no I do not mind at all, your feedback and ideas are very useful and always welcome! Quite like your anubias and hanging roots idea. I was thinking about those mini java ferns like the ones I ordered from Germany for in my main tank - they develop hanging roots also - see pic from my tank;





What does echinodorus NZ look like, is it a form of tenellus?




easerthegeezer said:


> moss is quite high maintenance to keep looking good though, it really needs hovering a lot which may cause issues if the baby pipes hide in it??





dw1305 said:


> I'd probably avoid hoovering the moss, as the biofilm that grows/collects on it will supply a lot of small food (like Rotifers) that are suitable fry food. I've had good success (including really small fry) using a combination of an oversized sponge, Java moss and a lot of dead leaves. When you can't see the fry, you squeeze the sponge out into the Java moss every couple of days (sponges are a great source of rotifers), and soon as you can see them, you start adding "Banana worms" or "Vinegar eels" (the Vinegar eels are best for more surface orientated fry like Betta spp.). The only thing you really need to watch out for is Planaria in the Java moss.


You are right, I would definitely need to be very careful with the moss. In addition, I would also need to give it a trim every now and then which could be tricky! Thanks for your ideas Darrell. Ghostsword had suggested something similar to me a while back - he said I could use some loose bits of wood, cover them with moss and place them in a container where lots of rotifers etc live and swap them back into the pipefish tank to introduce micro foods to them that way. Your ideas of using leaves and sponge filter also sound very interesting. I was thinking about keeping the crate going as a nursery once the pipefish tank is ready and create an environment rich in micro organisms to place any future pipefish fry (touch wood) in to grow on.



dw1305 said:


> PM me if you want some Vinegar Eels or Banana worms, they are a fair bit smaller even than Micro Worms.


Thanks so much Darrell, I will let you know if I need any. Just conscious of the time involved in keeping all these cultures going. I might well take you up on the vinegar eals, as they don't really take any time to maintain from what I remember.



ldcgroomer said:


> Fantastic bit of wood and the fish are beautiful, just the kind of thing I'd go for if I had the skill,patience and time! Last time I saw pipefish was when snorkeling at Bon Island, Thailand. Brings back memories...


Cheers IDC, swimming with the pipefish sounds amazing!!




sarahtermite said:


> This is really inspiring. It's very honest of you to catalogue the whole process, warts and all, so that we can all learn. I have no doubt their final home will be fabulous! And I rather like it when you can't see the fish 100% of the time - makes you appreciate it all the more when you do.


Hi Sarah. Thanks for the feedback. I fully agree with you. Much of what I have learnt about these fish -and most of what I have learnt about planted tanks- comes through reading other people's experiences in  forums. Unfortunately I have some sharing of bad news to do...


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## Iain Sutherland (8 Jan 2013)

killi69 said:


> What does echinodorus NZ look like, is it a form of tenellus?


 
its a very similar just a little wider, i tried tennelus low tech but it didnt go as well for me.  Ian H has it in his 'under the mangrove tree'.



killi69 said:


> Unfortunately I have some sharing of bad news to do...


oh no.....


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## killi69 (8 Jan 2013)

Well, I went to pick up the pipefish from my friend’s house today and I am very sorry to say that I have lost all but one of the baby pipefish    .

I am off course very grateful to my friend for all the work involved in handling and feeding live foods, setting up daily brineshrimp cultures etc and know that keeping the pipefish adults alive for two weeks is an achievement in itself. Nevertheless, this is very disappointing for me.

I do not know what happened. As I already mentioned, I killed two babies by sucking them up a pipette (turkey baster) sideways. They were difficult to catch and I stressed a few others out by sucking them up tail first. It is amazing how fast and for how long they could swim against the current but this would certainly not have helped either. At least I know for the future; baby pipefish need to be caught head first into the pipette.

I think other likely causes of the casualties might be overfeeding of brineshrimp in combination of lack of water change when necessary. Also, when I brought the tank water to take to my friend’s, I included all the mulm that had collected on the bottom of the crate, thinking this might contain micro organisms that might provide a source of food. In hindsight, this mulm might have contributed to any water quality issues, that may or may not have played a part in this. Gutted!!! Holiday times clearly present a major risk.

Anyway, on the positive side, at least there is one survivor, which seems to have grown well.




The pipefish family have all settled back in to their West London location again and all, including baby, seem happy. Not that I expect to see the baby for a while. I have put a load more ferns into their crate, as well as some java moss, in the hope to improve chances for the little one. There is so much vegetation in there now, it will be really hard to try and find the baby, hopefully he will come and show himself again soon.




I was doing some more research today and came across some information on http://fish.mongabay.com/species/Enneacampus_ansorgii.html;


> The female spawns above the the males brooding pouch. The eggs stick to his anal opening are covered by two lateral folds which form the sac. The eggs remain in the male's pouch for several months.
> Breeding has been accomplished accidentally thus far.




I also found some very interesting factsheets produced by Aqualog about pipefish;
http://www.aqualog.de/Aqualog/news/web90/Seite11-13e.pdf
http://www.aqualog.de/Aqualog/news/web92/Seite16-19e.pdf


> Nevertheless their successful maintenance and breeding is possible even for beginners in the aquarium hobby, as long as they are prepared to cater for the very special requirements of these fishes.
> ...
> [on Enneacampus ansorgii] This gorgeous little (8–12 cm) freshwater pipefish is the species most commonly available in the hobby, no doubt because it is produced by commercial breeders.




The reason for sharing this is that I am now thinking... when were my babies conceived?? WHO IS THE FATHER?? Or rather... who is the mother?! According to the first website quoted ‘the eggs remain in the male’s pouch for *several months*’. It would be nice to think that the pipefish bred in my tank. As they were born ten weeks after purchase, this is still very possible. But I have to admit, it could have all been an accident and the male was pregnant when I bought him.

Still, it is good to know that breeding of these creatures has been achieved in captivity and even better that the majority of this particular species of pipefish offered in LFSs seem to have been commercially bred. I really do not like the idea of wild caught fish filling the tanks at LFSs, especially those that can bred instead or those, like pipefish, that are very delicate and perish easily.

Fingers crossed the little one will survive and I still hold a little hope that MAYBE more might follow one day...


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## foxfish (9 Jan 2013)

Fantastic story, the pipe fish could of so easily gone to the wrong home but you not only saved them but made them parents!
These fish obviously need special conditions & dedicated treatment that few people would be able to offer - very well done & good luck breeding some more.


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## dw1305 (9 Jan 2013)

Hi all,
Micro/Banana worms are pretty low maintenance, and as you suggest Vinegar Eels are no maintenance. I've started harvesting the "Eels" using the "filter floss" method <Untitled Document>, and that works really well. 


> Ghostsword had suggested something similar to me a while back - he said I could use some loose bits of wood, cover them with moss and place them in a container where lots of rotifers etc live and swap them back into the pipefish tank to introduce micro foods to them that way. Your ideas of using leaves and sponge filter also sound very interesting.


It really works, I was using the "Java Moss method" for Ram fry (after a thread on a Killi Forum) and I noticed that as well as shrimps and _Otocinclus_ that Pygmy Cories and _Apistogramma_ fry spent a lot of their time on the dead leaves. I've got both _Corydoras hastatus_ and _C. pygmaeus_ fry in the lab tank <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society> at the moment, and they were already quite big by the time I found them, so I hadn't fed any specific "fry food". (I'll try and get a photo of the smaller _C. hastatus_ fry, as they are incredibly cute). 

cheers Darrel


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## nayr88 (9 Jan 2013)

You've done a great job mate, really put yourself out there.

Cheers for that DW good little read and defo something to do in the future when I have a fish occupied tank. 

I had your wingless fruit flies for ages and ages, really encouraged my apisto's to venture up to the surface of the tank.


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## dw1305 (9 Jan 2013)

Hi all,


> Fantastic story, the pipe fish could of so easily gone to the wrong home but you not only saved them but made them parents! These fish obviously need special conditions & dedicated treatment that few people would be able to offer - very well done & good luck breeding some more.


 Yes best of luck with them, you've put in the "hard yards", so I hope you are successful (and don't see why you shouldn't be).


> I had your wingless fruit flies for ages and ages, really encouraged my apisto's to venture up to the surface of the tank.


 I got them from "Chris1004" on UKAPS originally, but I'm not sure he is still on the forum. I've still got the cultures going if you want some more? I'm down to my last Marbled Hatchets, but I I'll keep them going.


> Cheers for that DW good little read and defo something to do in the future when I have a fish occupied tank.


A few other people have been experimenting with leaves as a food (either directly or to produce micro-organisms)
This is one on "Planet Catfish".
<http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34911&p=235958&hilit=leaf+litter+food#p235958>

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (10 Jan 2013)

Hi all,
I got some pretty poor pictures of the _Corydoras hastatus _ fry, so I'll hide them in this thread rather than putting them in their own thread. I've got at least 4 of this really small ones, and at least one similarly sized _Corydoras pygmaeus _fry.



They are in there honestly, 2 of them right in the middle of the photo.

He is a close-up of my dirty glass, and no he hasn't eaten them.




cheers Darrel


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## killi69 (10 Jan 2013)

foxfish said:


> Fantastic story, the pipe fish could of so easily gone to the wrong home but you not only saved them but made them parents! These fish obviously need special conditions & dedicated treatment that few people would be able to offer - very well done & good luck breeding some more.





nayr88 said:


> You've done a great job mate, really put yourself out there.





dw1305 said:


> Yes best of luck with them, you've put in the "hard yards", so I hope you are successful (and don't see why you shouldn't be).


Thank you very much Foxfish, Darrel and nayr88. I really hope I can share more good news some time.



dw1305 said:


> I was using the "Java Moss method" for Ram fry (after a thread on a Killi Forum) and I noticed that as well as shrimps and _Otocinclus_ that Pygmy Cories and _Apistogramma_ fry spent a lot of their time on the dead leaves. I've got both _Corydoras hastatus_ and _C. pygmaeus_ fry in the lab tank <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society> at the moment, and they were already quite big by the time I found them, so I hadn't fed any specific "fry food". (I'll try and get a photo of the smaller _C. hastatus_ fry, as they are incredibly cute).





dw1305 said:


> A few other people have been experimenting with leaves as a food (either directly or to produce micro-organisms) This is one on "Planet Catfish". <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=34911&p=235958&hilit=leaf+litter+food#p235958>


Great stuff. Do the leaves impact water quality at all?



dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I got some pretty poor pictures of the _Corydoras hastatus _ fry, so I'll hide them in this thread rather than putting them in their own thread. I've got at least 4 of this really small ones, and at least one similarly sized _Corydoras pygmaeus _fry.


Nice one Darrel, thanks for sharing this. They must have been tiny as fry!


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## killi69 (10 Jan 2013)

Miracle! I managed to spot my baby pipefish this morning;



Seems to have grown again



Nice pattern on top as well. Should I be worried about him being trapped inside the heater casing when heater comes on? The casing provides good protection for the adults. Should I cover the casing with something - stocking? Or am I being paranoid??


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## dw1305 (11 Jan 2013)

Hi all,


> Should I be worried about him being trapped inside the heater casing when heater comes on? The casing provides good protection for the adults. Should I cover the casing with something - stocking? Or am I being paranoid??


 No, I think it is a genuine concern. Could you provide the fish with alternative "caves"? Bamboo canes come to mind straight away.


> Great stuff. Do the leaves impact water quality at all?


 Not in practice, theoretically they will, but because the leaves were dead, the tree had already withdrawn all the carbohydrates (both sugars and starch) and protein (mainly as chlorophyll) from them. What's left are secondary metabolites like tannins and the structural carbohydrates like cellulose and lignin, which are difficult to degrade. Because the leaves are only degraded slowly they add very little Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) to the water.

Have a look at this fantastic article on dead leaves by Colin Dunlop. I've never met him, although I think that other members (BigTom?) know him (Colin may actually be a member of UKAPS?), and he is a famous name in fish-breeding circles <  All the leaves are brown… — Seriously Fish>.

I use the reduction of BOD concept for all my tank water management, so rather than saying something is "good" or "bad", you look at each item in terms of what nutrients it contains, how readily available they are, and how much effect it will have on BOD.

cheers Darrel


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## killi69 (11 Jan 2013)

Thanks Darrel, the link is really useful.  Just got to find some suitable leaves.

Good advice also about being careful with the heater injuring the fry.  I will need to address this and hopefully it is not too late for the remaining baby... There is, I think, already ample cover in the tank with lots of clumps of ferns which fry could hide in or under.  I am thinking about using a bit of stocking to tie over the entire heater element.  I imagine that the casing would prevent the stocking from touching the hot glass on the heater and causing it to melt.  The thing I am a bit cautious about is whether the stocking will leach any chemicals into the water.  I know a lot of people use stocking in filter chambers to hold products like Purigen, but I was wondering whether I need to be careful having stocking material submerged in such a small volume of water?


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## sanj (11 Jan 2013)

I want Pipefish!


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## killi69 (13 Jan 2013)

I went to feed my pipefish this morning and I noticed something amazing.



EGGS!!! I counted seven of them, just below the head of one of the pipefish in the corner.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------eggs above here
After a couple of minutes, the pipefish slowly made off



and snails moved in...



... and soon the eggs were gone.

As the males keep the eggs in their breeding pouch until the fry are released, I did not bother to try to save any of them. Here is a picture of one of the eggs close-up;




The fact that the eggs disappeared so fast indicates that they must have only just appeared. I can’t believe I just missed the mating, if only I had been there earlier I might have seen it all happen. Disappointed that the mating had failed but encouraged by the fact that the pipefish are happy enough in their environment to breed, I went online to find out more about the mating process and confirm that the eggs I found were indeed pipefish eggs.

I came across this Japanese website; http://otosuki.s96.xrea.com/af_pipefish/pipe_tamago/af_pipe_tamago.html which graphically illustrates the whole process. It is the best photographic documentation I have come across so far and is a very informative and entertaining read. Having missed the mating, finding these pictures was the next best thing;


> female right, male left
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This is so exciting; not only is the above confirmation that the eggs I found were pipefish eggs – better still; they could well be the spill over from a successful mating attempt!

I am still not sure how long it takes for the eggs to develop inside the male but I am on the look-out and will keep you all posted!


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## Gill (18 Jan 2013)

Congrats on keeping these amazing fish, they are a joy to watch. And wow babies aswell, so lucky. 
I agree that they are a challenge indeed, but once settled and with regular food they will do great. 
I have also found that they Devour Glassworms with vigour, And Your choice of live food is the best on the market. 
Thinking of keeping these in the future once live foods are stable and in large quantities.


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## BigTom (18 Jan 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Have a look at this fantastic article on dead leaves by Colin Dunlop. I've never met him, although I think that other members (BigTom?) know him (Colin may actually be a member of UKAPS?), and he is a famous name in fish-breeding circles < All the leaves are brown… — Seriously Fish>.


 
Yeah Colin knows his fish. Really nice guy, lives about an hour from me. He's not on here but posts a bit on SF and BCA.

Great job getting the pipefish breeding again. This is another group that are very high on my must have list for when I'm a bit more settled, so watching this thread with great interest!


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## killi69 (18 Jan 2013)

Gill said:


> Congrats on keeping these amazing fish, they are a joy to watch. And wow babies aswell, so lucky. .


Hi Gill, thanks for your comments and glad to see you are back again and on this thread as well - you might be able to jump in with some advice based on your experience of keeping pipefish!


Gill said:


> I have also found that they Devour Glassworms with vigour, And Your choice of live food is the best on the market. Thinking of keeping these in the future once live foods are stable and in large quantities.


Glassworms are their staple diet. I always go to the LFS on the afternoon they arrive. I do worry what will happen if they are not in stock one day - or, imagine, no longer supplied. ADC is the only shop I know in London that sells them. As you may have read, I enrich the brineshrimp with a vitamin supplement;




To try and make sure the vitamins get into the glassworm, I drain them and soak them in the vitamin liquid for a few hours. What is really frustrating is that quite often the majority of glassworms float (alive) on the surface. They don't sink and will just stay there until they die, out of reach of the pipefish. Sometimes they all float, sometimes they nearly all sink. I wonder if anyone else has any experience with this and knows a trick to make them sink? 



BigTom said:


> Great job getting the pipefish breeding again. This is another group that are very high on my must have list for when I'm a bit more settled, so watching this thread with great interest!


Thanks BigTom. I have been using Google translate to try and read a couple of German accounts of breeding this fish. I have read 11 days, 3 weeks and 'several months' as time it takes for young fry to be released from the male's pouch. If it's 11 days, it could be any time soon, let's wait and see.
Keeping these fish is quite intensive business, keeping up with the feeding regime. Feeding them also costs me at least £5 a week - that's £250 a year. I spend more time on the plastic crate containing the pipefish than I do on my main tank! Plus most of the time you can't even see them lol. "Why do I bother??" is a comment I hear regularly from people. Sometimes I wonder ...


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## Gill (18 Jan 2013)

If You ever get stuck for live food, Roxanne has a contract with that live food company >>  20 X Bags of Live Fish Food - Bloodworm Daphnia Brine Shrimp Tubifex - OFFER!! | eBay


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## LondonDragon (18 Jan 2013)

killi69 said:


> "Why do I bother??" is a comment I hear regularly from people. Sometimes I wonder ...


Because you care  and its a great challenge


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## Gill (18 Jan 2013)

exactly, it is a challenge to keep difficult fish


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## killi69 (19 Jan 2013)

Gill said:


> If You ever get stuck for live food, Roxanne has a contract with that live food company >> 20 X Bags of Live Fish Food - Bloodworm Daphnia Brine Shrimp Tubifex - OFFER!! | eBay


Cheers Gill for the link.  Do you know if they would be available in smaller quantities? It would take me 3-4 weeks to go through twenty bags and they won't last that long.


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## BigTom (19 Jan 2013)

killi69 said:


> Cheers Gill for the link. Do you know if they would be available in smaller quantities? It would take me 3-4 weeks to go through twenty bags and they won't last that long.


 
Same seller has them in quantities of 6, 10 and 12.

davies2735 | eBay


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## killi69 (19 Jan 2013)

Cheers BigTom!


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## webworm (19 Jan 2013)

Loving the effort and commitment you're making to these fish.


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## a1Matt (22 Jan 2013)

killi69 said:


> What is really frustrating is that quite often the majority of glassworms float (alive) on the surface. They don't sink and will just stay there until they die, out of reach of the pipefish. Sometimes they all float, sometimes they nearly all sink. I wonder if anyone else has any experience with this and knows a trick to make them sink?


 
I've not fed glassworms, but have found that daphnia often get stuck on the surface.
I think it is from air getting trapped in them when they hit the surface of the water.  I get around it by putting the bag they are in underwater before opening it. Works for me.  The downside of this is that you end up using the water they come with, which is not desirable.


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## killi69 (30 Jan 2013)

Good news first. You may remember that I posted a few weeks' ago about finding pipefish eggs on the bottom of my tank;



_example of one of the eggs_

I am pleased to say that the mating attempt has obviously been successful as I have spotted more pipefish fry!







In the post referred to above, I reported that there was very little information available about how long the males carried the eggs inside their pouch and that the few accounts I had read were conflicting; citing 11 days, 3 weeks and 'several months'. I was lucky to have found the eggs that had spilled over from the mating attempt (they were eaten by snails within minutes of me spotting them), especially so that I can exclusively reveal here on ukaps  how long the 'gestation period' really is; about 17 days.

Unfortunately, this is still an estimate. Although I know the exact day the mating took place, I do not know when the fry were 'born' from their dad's pouch. Every day, I have been spending some time looking for any signs of fry but with all the extra ferns and moss I added to the tank, they are very hard to spot, literally like needles in a haystack. By comparing to the sizes from the last batch, I reckon they are about five days old, so 16-18 days seems a very realistic estimate.




It is very hard to estimate how many there are. I counted four this evening.

The bad news; I found a number of dead fry inside the Aqua Flow 100 filter fitted on inside of the tank. I felt really bad as I could have prevented this but thought that the filter would not be strong enough to suck them in and also thought that they could not get in anyway as the sponge bit sits directly against the filter opening. I was wrong and found another four dead ones inside. Also, I have not seen the only surviving youngster from the first batch since my last report of him. I assume he might have got stuck/ burned between the heater and its casing, or also disappeared into the filter.

Anyway, lessons learned for next time. I have removed the heater casing and have placed some stocking around the intake of the filter to prevent fry from being sucked in. I will also take up Darrell's suggestion of running a sponge filter as well to increase surface areas for micro organisms to live on. I have also got a vinegar eal culture going to help feed the fry, and over the weekend will start up banana worm and micro worm cultures also. Hopefully I can bring on some of these little ones this time...

I made another interesting observation on the same day I spotted the fry.



One of the pipefish has a definite 'bulge'.

The Japanese website I referred to in my previous post showed pictures of a female dropping eggs and a male receiving eggs into his pouch (left and right below). The colouration of my pipefish and the position of its 'bulge' in relation to its dorsal fin suggests, I think, that the above picture is of my female - possibly with more eggs??



Maybe this is wishful thinking and I am interpreting the above pics in the wrong way. Compare the position of the 'bulge' of my fish in the middle with that of a female on the left and male on the right.

Anyway, for now it looks like my pipefish couple have a real good thing going on. Which brings me to my final point - I am aware this is the UK Aquatic PLANT Society and so far this journal has just been about breeding FISH in a PLASTIC CRATE .

I really need to get a move on with sorting out their proper tank. No progress here I am afraid. It has all been a bit back to front with this project.


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## sanj (30 Jan 2013)

Use a sponge filter for tanks with tiny fry in. They are cheap, ugly, but very effective for this purpose. TA aquaculture sell a variety of sponge filter options, you just need to purchase a pump elsewhere. Having used many different makes over some years for fry rearing, I personally find eheims better made, more efficient on power.


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## JEK (30 Jan 2013)

Very interesting journal, killi69. Those pipefish are very beautiful and such an exciting breeding behaviour. I was not aware that any freshwater fish used this breeding technique. Good luck with them and I'm looking forward to see them in a nice planted tank.


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## Iain Sutherland (30 Jan 2013)

Great journal andre, i for one look forward to updates as id love to do something like this, but alas there's no way id have the patience or dedication needed! 
Very happy to do it vicariously


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## nayr88 (30 Jan 2013)

Mate is be well pleased!! I got all happy when I see one of my shrimp berried haha let alone pipefish eggs! Haha

Baby pipefish is looking really good too, nice markings. 

Keep it up mate


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## killi69 (2 Feb 2013)

sanj said:


> Use a sponge filter for tanks with tiny fry in. They are cheap, ugly, but very effective for this purpose. TA aquaculture sell a variety of sponge filter options, you just need to purchase a pump elsewhere. Having used many different makes over some years for fry rearing, I personally find eheims better made, more efficient on power.


Thanks Sanj. I already have a few sponge filters from TA Aquaculture. Great supliers, I can recommend them also. I use them for dried granular foods and everything for needed for growing brineshrimp.


JEK said:


> Very interesting journal, killi69. Those pipefish are very beautiful and such an exciting breeding behaviour. I was not aware that any freshwater fish used this breeding technique. Good luck with them and I'm looking forward to see them in a nice planted tank.


Cheers JEK, I really need to make progress with getting the aquarium planted up. Even when it has been set up, I will wait for a while until it has matured, so it will be months before the pipefish leave their crate.


easerthegeezer said:


> Great journal andre, i for one look forward to updates as id love to do something like this, but alas there's no way id have the patience or dedication needed! Very happy to do it vicariously


Now you have sold your tank, you might have some spare time on your hands


nayr88 said:


> Mate is be well pleased!! I got all happy when I see one of my shrimp berried haha let alone pipefish eggs! Haha Baby pipefish is looking really good too, nice markings. Keep it up mate


It was great to find the fry. Downside is that they mainly eat newly hatched brineshrimp, which only live in freshwater for a few hours, so they really must be fed twice a day. The adults would be ok with feeding once a day as a lot of the food they eat (glassworm, daphnia, small bloodworm) stays alive in the tank. It just means that for the next couple of months it will be difficult for me to stay away for the night.
Funny enough, I have not seen my sakora shrimp berried up yet. Perhaps they are not old enough or could it be that their food supply is too rich in protein? One of the main reasons I have them is to help clear up the left over brineshrimp and, once they do multiply, provide an occasional shrimplet snack for the pipefish.

Baby pipefish are doing well, I counted five this morning among all the plants so there must be a few more in there.


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## Iain Sutherland (2 Feb 2013)

killi69 said:


> Now you have sold your tank, you might have some spare time on your hands


dont think so andre, new tank arrives straight after my holiday 
if you can get a good survival rate you'll have pipefish coming out of your ears in no time at this rate of breeding.


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## dw1305 (4 Feb 2013)

Hi all,


killi69 said:


> Downside is that they mainly eat newly hatched brineshrimp, which only live in freshwater for a few hours, so they really must be fed twice a day.


Would "Vinegar Eels" be any good? they swim for ages in fresh water and you can concentrate them with a light.

cheers Darrel


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## killi69 (4 Feb 2013)

Cheers Darrel, I picked up a mature culture last week.  Not sure how to catch the eels though.  When I had them years ago, I would get little dots/ tiny balls of eels floating near the top and I would just suck up those with as little liquid as possible and squirt straight into my containers with fry.  The culture I have now has loads of eels but they are more spread out and need to be strained.  I used to use  coffee filters, is this the best method?  From what I remember, the sour liquid from the culture would still enter the water via the coffee filter paper.  What would you recommend?

Also, would the eels sink of float towards the top?  The baby pipefish hang out towards the bottom.


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## dw1305 (4 Feb 2013)

Hi all,


killi69 said:


> Not sure how to catch the eels though.


 Use this method, from <Vinegar Eels>, much easier than anything else.


> A modified technique using the same theme but productive enough to be useful is to use longneck bottles for culturing. Keep the culture medium level well below the neck to have adequate surface area. To harvest, remove the floss plug and add enough spare culture medium to reach above the bottom of the narrow neck. Push the polyester filter floss down to the surface. Add fresh water up to the top of the neck. In a few hours (or overnight), there will be a rich collection of eels in the fresh water, but no noticeable mixing from the vinegar below. Collect the worms with a bulb baster or dropper. Remove the floss and squeeze dry. Pour enough vinegar back into a spare bottle to get good surface area again in the main culture bottle and loosely plug the top of the neck with the damp floss.





killi69 said:


> Also, would the eels sink of float towards the top? The baby pipefish hang out towards the bottom.


They swim towards the light like BBS, but you can concentrate them lower down with an LED at night etc.

Banana or Micro- worms last quite well in water, and they eventually sink to the bottom.

cheers Darrel


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## frothhelmet (13 Nov 2013)

updates?


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## Phil Edwards (13 Nov 2013)

Congratulations on your success!  Breeding any fish inadvertently just by taking proper care of them is quite exciting, isn't it?  What do you think of Vitamarin as a food supplement?


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## killi69 (14 Nov 2013)

Hi there,


Phil Edwards said:


> Phil Edwards Member Offline Message Count: 34 Congratulations on your success! Breeding any fish inadvertently just by taking proper care of them is quite exciting, isn't it? What do you think of Vitamarin as a food supplement?


Thanks Phil, yes it was rather exciting when I first spotted the fry - I could not believe what I was seeing. With regards to Vitamarin, I cant really tell you whether I know if it made a difference. I used to soak live glassworm in it before feeding to the fish in an attempt to boost the nutritional value. I just read about this and someone recommended it to me but I have no evidence first hand on the difference it made.



frothhelmet said:


> updates?


Sorry for the long absence. In the weeks following my last post back in February, the pipefish fry came on well.




However, soon after, things went sour when I lost both parent pipefish within a short space of each other. One of the fish got caught on the top of the filter during a water change and went berserk after it freed itself, knocking into the sides of the tank quite violently and dying a few hours later.


I think it was a water quality issue that killed the other parent, along with two of the fry. In an attempt to improve the water quality, I tried a 'clip-on' filter, or whatever these things are called;


I thought that by fitting a shrimp protector on the inlet, that the filter would be safe for my pipefish fry. It was safe for my fry but what I failed to notice was that the baby brineshrimp were being sucked into the filter at feeding time. They were decomposing inside the filter and by the time I noticed the tell tale sign of white froth on the water surface, it was too late and I found the body of the dead parent among the plants.

This was obviously a big blow. The frustration was compounded by the fact that this was now the SECOND time I had lost fish because of my choice of filtration. Because of the way pipefish hunt (ambushing instead of chasing prey), they need to be 'surrounded ' in food at feeding time, which means quite a bit of dead brineshrimp left over hours after feeding. It was with this in mind that I was trying to improve water conditions through using something more powerful than sponge filters. In hindsight this was a mistake and I should have relied on sponge filters, ram snails and water changes.

I was now left with only two surviving fry, which grew considerably over the next couple of months.


When I went on holiday in May, I was fortunate that a killi keeper friend of mine offered to look after my pipefish. He always has a steady supply of baby brineshrimp on the go which made it quite straightforward for him to look after them.


When I dropped off the pipefish, I asked if he might be interested in looking after them permanently. He said he would think about it and the holiday accommodation soon turned into their new B&B;


I bumped into my friend at a killi auction in September and he told me that the pipefish are still alive and well - even though he only catches a glimpse of them every few weeks.

I am obviously very pleased that the pipefish have survived and feel a little bit less guilty for buying the original pair on impulse about one year ago.

Breeding these interesting and delicate creatures has been a rewarding experience but, if I am completely honest, I am happy that someone else now has the responsibility of looking after them.

Thanks for your interest. Regards, Andre


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## Iain Sutherland (14 Nov 2013)

hey andre, good to see you back on the boards.  Shame about the pipefish issues but can imagine what hard work they must have been.  What is the pipefish tank you planned now doing, hopefully not sitting empty?!
Would be great to see a killi tank update while your here   i would bet im not the only one that loves that tank!


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## krazypara3165 (15 Nov 2013)

superb! this was one of the last posts i was reading before i went away and its one of the first few ive read since returning. its been brilliant to see how you have done with breeding them and its been an interesting read!


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## killi69 (15 Nov 2013)

krazypara3165 said:


> superb! this was one of the last posts i was reading before i went away and its one of the first few ive read since returning. its been brilliant to see how you have done with breeding them and its been an interesting read!


Thanks! Looks like we both have been absent from the forum for around the same time then.


Iain Sutherland said:


> hey andre, good to see you back on the boards. Shame about the pipefish issues but can imagine what hard work they must have been. What is the pipefish tank you planned now doing, hopefully not sitting empty?! Would be great to see a killi tank update while your here i would bet im not the only one that loves that tank!


Hi Iain!
The pipefish display tank never materialised. I used the piece of wood which was to form the centre piece of the pipefish tank, to help with the underplanting in my main tank;

Seen here in bottom right corner (funny how it just almost disappears in a big tank);


I have been uploading images to photobucket over the last few days, so I hope to bring my other journal up to date very soon.

Regards,

Andre


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