# Green dust Algae break out Up date & conclusion



## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Apr 2009)

Gang@ukaps

Break out of the above algae

Tank specifications - 39" x 15" x 12" - 217 lyr
Lighting - T8's 96 watts - on for 9hrs
CO2 - Pressurised
Filtration - Filter Ehiem 2080 flow rate 1700lph - no spray bar - one outlet pipe placed in the left hand rear corner forcing water across the tank to the front glass approx. angle 40 degrees from the rear left hand side of tank.
Fertilisation routine - EI dosing as per Clives article NPK 50 mls - Sat, Mon & Wed, Trace mix 25mls Sun and Tues, rest days Thurs & Fri. 
Water Change - 50% on Sat.

Scraped algae of glass tonight any ideas.

Regards
Paul.


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## Simon D (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Without reading too deep into your spec, and taking into account the weather over the last few days, is your tank getting more natural sunlight that it's used to? Just a thought!


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				Simon D said:
			
		

> Without reading too deep into your spec, and taking into account the weather over the last few days, is your tank getting more natural sunlight that it's used to? Just a thought!



No Simon

Thx 

paul


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## Simon D (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

OK, how long has the tank been set-up?


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Simon

Just under 12 months, I have added the new filter about six weeks ago - mixture of media from my old filter ex1200 and new media from my new filter I have been palying about with the spray bar ie adding an extra length - cutting bits off etc. Everything has been ok until this week - I have just put the spray bar back in "just now" to see what happens.

Paul


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

GDA is a tenacious species and is linked to a combination of poor CO2 and poor nutrients. Since you are dosing EI and using T8 instead of T5 the likely culprit is poor flow/distribution and/or inadequate injection rate. The recommended procedure is to leave it alone for 3-4 weeks before scraping it off. Often this has to be repeated as it returns with a vengeance. Very disagreeable.

Sunlight shouldn't be an issue if distribution of CO2 and nutrient levels are adequate.

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> GDA is a tenacious species and is linked to a combination of poor CO2 and poor nutrients. Since you are dosing EI and using T8 instead of T5 the likely culprit is poor flow/distribution and/or inadequate injection rate. The recommended procedure is to leave it alone for 3-4 weeks before scraping it off. Often this has to be repeated as it returns with a vengeance. Very disagreeable.
> 
> Sunlight shouldn't be an issue if distribution of CO2 and nutrient levels are adequate.
> 
> Cheers,



Clive 

DC indicates green - not lime green but lighter than grass green - EI as per your article - you know I have been playing with water distribution - more of direction of water flow in the tank could this is the issue. I have increase the Co2 slightly tonight and put the spray bar back in.

Paul


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## Simon D (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Sunlight shouldn't be an issue if distribution of CO2 and nutrient levels are adequate.
> 
> Cheers,



Assuming that the photo-period is in line with any natural sunlight?


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				Simon D said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Simon

Co2 comes on @ 13:00, lights on at 14:00 - lights off @ 23:00, co2 off @ 23:30.

Paul.


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## Simon D (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

You could try putting CO2 on an hour earlier and off an hour (and a half?) earlier, that wouldn't hurt at all and probably benefit but it's not the solution to the problem.


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

I will alter timers now

thx

Paul.


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				Simon D said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, yes, too much sunlight definitely can wreak havoc in a tank, however GDA is not specifically linked to  sunlight. GDA appears is many new setups that are not located anywhere near daylight and can be traced to a combination of poor CO2/nutrient delivery for their given artificial lighting level. This is why flow/distribution as well as injection rates and dosing are critical when initially setting up a tank.

I've kept tanks in glass conservatories and have never seen GDA, regardless of artificial photoperiod, so the spectral quality of sunlight by itself cannot be a specific causal factor. The fundamental cause, regardless of the lighting source, can only be traced to poor nutrient delivery relative to the lighting intensity.

Summer photo taken at dusk facing east. Sunrise 4:45AM, CO2 on at 7:30AM lights on at 9:30AM






Cheers,


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## Simon D (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Good move

The plants will not use CO2 to photosynthesise if there is no light so there is no point in having it on for half an hour after lights out. One should have adequate CO2 (and other ferts) available at lights up so 1 hour before is OK but many say 2 hours. I think this depends on your distribution method (diffusers against reactors) and how you can maximise the Co2 in the water column. 

If you have sufficient Co2 in the water column at the start of the photo-period the plants are ready to go (or grow) as soon as the light kick in. Likewise this Co2 will remain in the water for an hour or so after the injection is off (assuming decent diffusion).

But as I alluded to earlier, I don't think this is the solution to your problem.


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## Simon D (22 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Ceg, did you have any fish in there? I'm about to have an east facing conservatiory built and would love to have a tank like that in there as it will be my retreat.  I'm very wary about doing this without more info. I notice it faces away from the glass (obviously) has a black-out background and is hooded. Is there anything else I should be looking out for apart from ambient temperature?

Paul, sorry to sort of hijack.


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## ceg4048 (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				Simon D said:
			
		

> Ceg, did you have any fish in there? I'm about to have an east facing conservatiory built and would love to have a tank like that in there as it will be my retreat.  I'm very wary about doing this without more info. I notice it faces away from the glass (obviously) has a black-out background and is hooded. Is there anything else I should be looking out for apart from ambient temperature?
> 
> Paul, sorry to sort of hijack.


Yes, this was great because it facilitated water changes using the garden hose. :idea: Temperature is a problem, but I just kept the windows open and on really hot days I kept the overhead fans running. I guess discus wouldn't mind the heat. In this tank I kept dwarf chiclids and some small tetras. This is the same tank of which photos were taken for the EI tutorial. This project is not for the faint of heart, however the background, hood and side coverings were subsequently added primarily because I felt that the aesthetic qualities of the sunlight was absolutely awful and it washed every color out, not because I was afraid of sun induced algae. In fact that tank was lit by 1/2 kilowatt of T5 CF + gull-wing reflectors and I never got GDA.  

At high noon the sunlight completely overrides the tank lighting so this is not a great time for viewing and in the late afternoon the sunlight is very yellow. Instead of facing the tank east it might have been wiser to mount it along the south wall of the conservatory.

In winter one has the opposite problem as it needs a serious heating strategy, hence the double Eheim 2180.

Again, if the tank is hooded then it holds a goodly amount of CO2 overnight so that the morning sunlight isn't too much of a problem prior to gas turn-on. I might have to rethink if this were an open top tank, probably turn the gas on sooner.
Incidentally, this is another scenario in which double and triple EI dosing and tap water was employed, as the added sunlight meant that I was effectively approaching the kilowatt barrier. No toxic effects were noted.

Always remember that massive flow and efficient CO2 erase a lot of foolhardiness. 8) 

Cheers,


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## Simon D (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Thanks Ceg, that makes sense to me but also worries me.

I'll need to give it some serious thought before I attempt it (if I do).


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## ceg4048 (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Master Po of the Shaolin Temple advises that it is prudent to fear those forces greater than oneself. This is the beginning of wisdom. However, if I may borrow from Life of Brian...consider the lilies in the field. Are _they_ worried? No, and how much greater are you than them? Implement the fundamental stratagem learned here; continually question your CO2 levels, add excellent flow, dose at awe inspiring nutrient levels and adhere to stringent maintenance practices, recognize and have faith in your knowledge of observed deficiency symptoms, respond instantly to those symptoms and you'll do fine.  

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				Simon D said:
			
		

> Ceg, did you have any fish in there? I'm about to have an east facing conservatiory built and would love to have a tank like that in there as it will be my retreat.  I'm very wary about doing this without more info. I notice it faces away from the glass (obviously) has a black-out background and is hooded. Is there anything else I should be looking out for apart from ambient temperature?
> 
> Paul, sorry to sort of hijack.



Simon 

No worries - I will post more info on my activities over the past two weeks tonight and what I did last night when I am in my hotel room tonight - email you later.

Regards
Paul.


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## Mark Evans (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

that's a stunning tank Clive!  8)


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## ceg4048 (23 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Thanks Mark! I was going to rename this tank The MythBuster.  

Cheers,


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## aaronnorth (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

IME GDA follows on from diatoms.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Thanks Mark! I was going to rename this tank The MythBuster.
> 
> Cheers,



lol, do you still have it now you have moved?


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (24 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Simon & Clive

Quick up date - re-fitted spray bar on Wednesday night, altered timer for Co2 as per Simons advise - as of tonight (2 days later) no algea on glass. I am considering doing a big water change tomorrow ie 75% rather than my 50% - any thoughts regarding tomorrow water change activity.

Regards

paul.


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## ceg4048 (25 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



			
				Flyfisherman said:
			
		

> Quick up date - re-fitted spray bar on Wednesday night, altered timer for Co2 as per Simons advise - as of tonight (2 days later) no algea on glass. I am considering doing a big water change tomorrow ie 75% rather than my 50% - any thoughts regarding tomorrow water change activity.


Yeah, the bigger and more frequent the better in my book. Keeping the CO2 high is your best friend.


			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> IME GDA follows on from diatoms.


Well, again, this is a mis-correlation, and in fact if the second follows the first it simply means that you have either not fixed the fundamental problem that caused the first, or that a second basic error has been committed. I've not seen GDA in my tanks for over 10 years but I have incurred diatom algae in the meantime, which demonstrates that this is not an automatic follow-on. Poor technique can result in a variety of algal types, which shouldn't be a surprise, really, but it doesn't mean that there is an intrinsic relationship between the occurrence of one and the appearance of the other.


			
				aaronnorth said:
			
		

> lol, do you still have it now you have moved?


Yeah, but still in storage mate. Need transformers and such to run the electrics. I'm too cheap to buy 110V gear all over again...  

Cheers,


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## aaronnorth (25 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*



> Well, again, this is a mis-correlation, and in fact if the second follows the first it simply means that you have either not fixed the fundamental problem that caused the first, or that a second basic error has been committed. I've not seen GDA in my tanks for over 10 years but I have incurred diatom algae in the meantime, which demonstrates that this is not an automatic follow-on. Poor technique can result in a variety of algal types, which shouldn't be a surprise, really, but it doesn't mean that there is an intrinsic relationship between the occurrence of one and the appearance of the other.



In my last 2, possibly 3 tanks, i have always had diatoms > GDA. Dont know why    and i know that it isnt an automatic occurance, however, it is probably just the ecess ammonia still being there which hasnt been cleared up.
However, i know know better


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (25 Apr 2009)

*Re: Green dust Algae break out*

Gang@Ukaps

Simon D
Concerns were raised a few months ago regarding water flow - the amount of water being tuned over within the tank as I was getting a bit of BBA (green type) - Clive responded to my thread as he normally does and the issues was centred around water flow as I was using a TT.1200 which produce a flow rate of 1200 lph - what I needed was 2170 lph as my tank is 217ltr. There are two filters which would produce this turn over of water TT.2400 or an FX5, after reading a thread regarding the TT2400 put me off because of the noise and the FX5 would not fit into the cupboard. The other option available was to add a additional water circulation pump to coincide with my TT1200. Did not fancy this as I wanted all my water filtered, only option available was Ehiem 2078 @ 1800 lph + additional features. Clive mentioned about a 2080 even though the flow rate was slightly less 100 lph but was less complicated and he was using these â€“ so I bought one. Its be running now for about 6 weeks with a mixture of media all my TT1200 media â€“ noodles, bio balls and sponges + the new media from my 2080 of which I will be removing over a period of time all in all itâ€™s a cocktail of media.

Two / three week ago posted a thread regarding spray bars: whilst I was using the TT1200 I removed the spray bar so it performed more like having lily pipes. Now the Ehiem is fitted now have an additional inlet, so my idea was to have the spray bar plum in the middle of the tank, two problems â€“ 
1.	the force of the water being emitted from the bar made my rummies swim at approx. 75 degrees when going from left to right and vice versa. 
2.	Would have to cut my wet and dry filter box (not in use).

So I invested in an additional bar and coupled it to the original (double the length now) now the water coming from the bar seemed to be slower (not as much force) thread posted - Clive to the rescue again â€“ tweak the pipes until you reach desired flow rate. The bar ended up been 1.5 x is original length still not satisfied I removed the bars and placed the return pipe plum in the middle of the tank so the returned water was now being forced against the front glass of the tank â€“ too much disturbance now â€“ water surface very choppy â€“ so I moved the pipe to the rear left hand side of the tank so the water then flowed for left to right, twisted the connection pipe so the water hit the glass approx. 8â€ from the left hand side and half way down the glass front. I wanted to add a lily pipe just the inlet side as I thought that by having a wider opening would be better than a 16mm opening (using the original eheim rigid green pipe)  There was more GDA to the left hand side of the glass when compared with the right hand side. Scraped the GDA of last night and put the spray bar back in â€“ no GDA arrived yet as per the wifeâ€™s visual inspection. 

As for E.I dosing: approx 4 months â€“ NPK solution as per Cliveâ€™s article, trace mix was the same until last weekend when I added 1 more tps to the mix â€“ originally it was 1.5 tps to 200 mls of water now it 2 tps to 200mls of water â€“ slight increase from 1.5 tps to 200mls of water of which I was considering doing, should not cause a problem. I also add 25mls of easycarbo when I am @ home. 



Conclusion:
I think it is down to direction of water flow â€“ since fitted the spray bar back (last night) any tiny leaves from my HC that were floating on the surface water were being drawn downwards towards the water intake pipe â€“ better direction of water flow.

Regards

Paul.


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## Simon D (18 Jun 2009)

How's it going now Paul?

Just going back on a few posts and would be interested to hear (or preferably see some pics)!


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