# california dreaming - nano 30l



## Mrmikey (3 Jun 2010)

Hi 

Im starting my new nano scape and thought I'd get some feed back on a couple of layouts. Im finding pretty hard to get some nice shapes going what do u guys think?

Ill be planting: hc, Hemianthius micranthatmoides  riccia, Pogostemon Helferi possibly dwarf hair grass and H.zosterifoila


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## bigmatt (3 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Tank stats please!
Three is my favourite but i think it could tolerate some bigger rocks - with the carpeting plants you might lose some of the rocks and it could look a touch "flat"
Cheers!
Matt


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## samc (3 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

i like no.3 best  

i would however slope the substrate alot more. its a quite tall tank.


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## Mrmikey (3 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

The tank is 30cm x 30cm x 35cm which is a little awkward to scape.

I like number 3 best, I agree it could probably take one big stone but I haven't got one? and I dont know anywhere around here (east sussex) that sells it. I got this from the TGM ages ago. 



> Three is my favourite but i think it could tolerate some bigger rocks - with the carpeting plants you might lose some of the rocks and it could look a touch "flat"



So do you think its worth holding on for a bigger stone? 



> i would however slope the substrate alot more. its a quite tall tank.



I find it hard to slope the substrate is there a trick that can be used?

M


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## bigmatt (3 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*



> I find it hard to slope the substrate is there a trick that can be used?


Start low at the front and build it up to the back     I found using damp substrate works well, then filling very, very slowly using 6mm airline.  
TGM, AE and plantedbox.com all do rocks on mail order, and if you talk to them i'm sure they could post you out a suitable piece.  
What light have you got?  I knwo George Farmer recommends 1 wpl for nanos to grow anything, and your's looks like an 11w.....
Like 3 the more i look at it - the whole "hollow" thing is really nice, and a break from the "one big rock" school (never been an iwagumi fan   )
M


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## Mrmikey (3 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Well i was just messing for now taking picture to document. Im going to give it another clean tonight to get sticky backing off previous background.


> I found using damp substrate works well, then filling very, very slowly using 6mm airline.


makes sense really this stuff budges way to much under the weight of the rocks.


> Like 3 the more i look at it - the whole "hollow" thing is really nice, and a break from the "one big rock" school (never been an iwagumi fan   )


so do you think i should just go for it or wait for a better rock? Im not so fussed if the rocks start to blend out... might look nice thats the think its hard to tell. Well for amateurs like me anyway.
Yes I have an 11w but I have another one as well.


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## bigmatt (3 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Ah, good stuff with the lights.
I'm most DEFINTIELY an amateur mate! It's just much easier to critique the work of others ! 
Personally i would hang on for a bigger "focal" rock to place in the position of the present largest stone, then shift everything round a bit, should just scale it all up abit an fills ome of the height
M


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## Mrmikey (4 Jun 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Well you gotta start somewhere right? 

I was kinda thinking the same thing, doesnt look right so I photo-shopped a picture and sent it to TGM. Hopefully they will get back to me fairly quickly. I was hoping to make do as I've spent all my money ! but It will just annoy me down the line.

At 11w I found that my HC grew very slowly if anything but the bonus was the algae was down. 2x11 much more algae but much better plant growth all round and quick.


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## Mrmikey (7 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Well I visited the GM and got my rock, I got a big bit that I had to brake up. I've added the substrate and done the hardscaping, I just went with gut instinct, I think it looks alright. Ive planted a few bits of HC that I saved from old tank set up. Most died in holding tank as I haven't had time for it. The bits of hair grass I saved and Heteranthera zosterifolia I have just put in for recovery as I figure out the planting. I have ordered Pogostemon erectus and should be here by friday, think it will look good at the back some where.


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## Mrmikey (7 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

oops


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## Mrmikey (8 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Woke up this morning and the tank was cloudy so gave it a 50 % water change. Going to plant it a bit more tonight so will post pic when im done.


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## Mrmikey (13 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

I have had a bit of time today to add a few plants and take a pic of progress. My tank is still along way from what im trying to acheive. Im waiting for Dennerle to bring out their new external filter. Thats my next big spend, just wanna see what the reviews say as I rate their stuff. When I eventually get a external filter i will inline the co2. hopefully it may accommodate the heater aswell...Clutter free. I'm a bit unsure what to do next in terms of planting though.

Ive tried my best but still think it need something?? Im thinking maybe a red plant would look nice? I dont know much about red plants but presume they need more light than my 2 x 11w lights? if so then its a no go. 
Im not totally happy with the hairgrass just in-front of Erectus. may just turn that bit into a big riccia bolder? any Imput would be good.

I wanna grow my erectus  (back right), short and squat, On wednesday im going on holiday and was wondering should i prune it before I go?


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## Nelson (13 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

i missed this one   .

love the rock layout.will look great when grown in   .


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## Mrmikey (13 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

thanks nelson, its pretty tricky as my tanks fairly tall, tried loads of combinations /layouts of rock but had to keep it quit simple. HC is starting to take off after a week. No Algae problems yet... fingers crossed. Cant wait for it to grow-out, May have to do my riccia rocks again as i think ive tied the cotton too tight. Apart form that so far so good.

Still looking for help with the erectus pruning ??


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## Nelson (13 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

i've only seen Pogostemon erectus in Andyh's tank

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11300&start=80

i think its quite a new plant from Tropica.


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## Mrmikey (13 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Thanks for that, it would explain why not much comes up in google. Love to see what it looks like grown out, so i get an idea how big it gets


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## Nelson (13 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

i found this http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... php?id=272
but not loads of info.
there were some other places,but again not much info.


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## basil (14 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Aquascape looking really good - just needs a few CRS   

I'm sure they'll be happy in their new home


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## samc (14 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

looks cool. nice and different  

i am growing erectus in my 60cm. its slow growing even under my 150w halide


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## Mrmikey (22 Jul 2010)

*california dreaming*



			
				samc said:
			
		

> looks cool. nice and different
> 
> i am growing erectus in my 60cm. its slow growing even under my 150w halide



Yeah it's really nice, i pruned mine and it seems to be getting bushier. I think i should have left it on the back right? You'll see what I mean when I photography it. 

Been having a bit of trouble with the hc and hair algae again. I may knock an hour off the lighting and have already upped co2 slightly and added some excel today. The problem with the hc was the ottos... They kept coming to the front corners of the tank and messing up the soil disturbing the hc. I've now popped them in my naff 20l tank for now. 

Basil, cheers mate not too bad is it. I totally agree I need some shrimp. I'm still getting fairly high readings of nitrate so maybe another week and I can add them... How they looking?


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## Mrmikey (22 Jul 2010)

*california dreaming*

I have at the moment ten galaxy rosbora...trouble is I never see them coz they are so shy. Can I add more? Would say 6 harliquins be ok or something else? Actually totally open to sugestion...
I am planning on adding crs so nothing that can munch them up


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## Mrmikey (24 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Ive been looking at the tank and didn't like the erectus, it looked shabby at the bottom. So in a state of madness i ordered to pot of hairgrass. So today I've been giggling things around a little at the back. I think it looks ok. 

Still struggling with hair algae on the hc and its looking pretty sorry for its self. Riccia rocks seem to be taking off but again hair algae is invading.


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## Nelson (24 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

still love the rock layout   .

if you've got no livestock in there i'd crank up the co2 a bit more.
maybe move the DC down a bit and see how it goes.


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## Mrmikey (24 Jul 2010)

*california dreaming*

Cheers nelson, my planting is pants but suppose comes with experance. I'll move the dc down a little and see how it goes, I'll aim for yellow. I've just upped co2 as suggested and think it may help a little. I'm dosing excel as well but have to be careful as I have ten galaxy rosbora in there. What shrimp do u have that control ur hair algae ?


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## Mrmikey (24 Jul 2010)

*california dreaming*

Hi nealon forgot to ask... What's the secert to tall hairgrass In ur nano tank?. I think if I got that height in mine it would help a lot?


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## Nelson (24 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

oh right,i remember the hiding CPD's now.just be careful upping the co2 then.

not sure but i think amano's eat hair algae if they're hungry enough.i might be wrong though.


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## Nelson (24 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*



			
				Mrmikey said:
			
		

> Hi nealon forgot to ask... What's the secert to tall hairgrass In ur nano tank?. I think if I got that height in mine it would help a lot?


don't know   :? .
you should trim it to about an inch when planting   .


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## Mrmikey (25 Jul 2010)

*california dreaming*



			
				nelson said:
			
		

> Mrmikey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How come nelson , will this encourage more growth? Have u every found that once u prune it, it starts to curl over and goes brown at the tips?i thought u had dome shrimp in yours my mistake. Basil ( member ) has 15 crs shrimp for me, but don't think they eat hair algae. I may get some cherry or ghost shrimp after a bit of google.


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## Nelson (25 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*



			
				Mrmikey said:
			
		

> How come nelson , will this encourage more growth? Have u every found that once u prune it, it starts to curl over and goes brown at the tips?.


it will encourage more growth.what you have now will probably die back anyway.

heres a quote from George,


> I don't prune it back until it's planted as I find it easier this way.  Some prefer to prune before planting.



and


> by saintly Â» Sat May 22, 2010 8:26 am
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

To elaborate, Hair grass often comes in an above water state. Now some of the grass will survive, but most will turn brown if left alone. trim it down to the substrate, to encourage growth, and to ensure that any growth that comes though is underwater state.

After a few weeks of growth, trim it again. I've also found that trimming will 'halt' it's spread to some degree, so it's a little easier to contain.


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## Nelson (25 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

cheers Mark   .i can't get my brain to work properly this morning   .


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## Mrmikey (25 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Amazing thanks for the help as usual nelson and saintly. Maybe i should have done it before i put it in as its all at the back and my 20cm scissors are hard to maneuver. I think Im going to add a couple of shrimp today, this may help with my algae around the tank. 

Cant wait for my 15 crs now, i think the tank is lacking in live stock....or ones you can actually see! 

I woke up this morning after upping co2 and fish seem ok, which is a good sign. May up it a tad-more.


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## Mrmikey (27 Jul 2010)

*Re: california dreaming*

Well, I have trimmed the hair grass right back... my curved scissors off ebay are crap, may have to re-think them. You pay peanuts, you get monkeys right! Anyway looks ok I did this 2 days ago and some bits have already started to grow.

I've been a bit bad and put my a couple of my cherry and Amano shrimp in to help with hair-algae and other bits of maintenance. Good news is after 2 days they are not dead and seem fine. This has really helped my HC which is now starting to take. Still needs a few gaps filling though. As for my Riccia Balls, one id ok with now algae on it, so ive redone two. I think i tied the cotton too tight when i did it originally. 

Also, ive added a blue led back light ( came with an ant farm i had given to me), cant wait for tonight to see what it looks like. I'll take a picture to show you guys.


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## Mrmikey (27 Jul 2010)

heres a little update photo, Its not the best but tonight im doing one with the new blue back light. hope it looks good when it goes dark.


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## Mrmikey (30 Jul 2010)

Im think of filling out the forground, should i keep the path-way and fill in with more HC or should i make it look like the Riccia is spilling out the middle, making a simi circle and fill around it with HC?


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## Mrmikey (5 Aug 2010)

Hi, haven't replied for a while and a few things have changed. I wasn't happy with the balance in the layout (plants), so I've tied Riccia to rocks and moved the odd thing around. I decided against planting the whole forground with HC....for now! I've also opened up the path a bit more like in the begining. I've added my Erectus again it needed something to contrast the red plant. I will be uploading a photo in a coupe of hours.


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## Mrmikey (5 Aug 2010)

heres a photo after a bit of jiggling around. Not the best photo and tank looks shabby but you'll get the jist. Still waiting for the riccia to take off then i will have a better idea of where to go from here.


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## Nelson (5 Aug 2010)

thats looking a lot better with the path   .also now the plants are filling in   .


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## Mrmikey (5 Aug 2010)

cheers nelson, yeah i think it looks better as well. Should leave it as it is or smash up little bits of the fossil wood rock and fill it in with that? grading it from bigger bits to smaller bits at the front? what do you think?


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## Nelson (5 Aug 2010)

i'd leave it as it is.
but try it and see what you prefer   .


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## Mrmikey (5 Aug 2010)

you're right nelson. i'll leave it for a bit and hope my hc starts growing a little more and losses the algae on it. Going to drop the light to 6 hours a day and easycarb it for a bit. Hopefully the path will become more evident. Maybe when that has grown I will give it a try.


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## Mrmikey (11 Sep 2010)

Well it's been a while since I last posted as I've been pretty busy with on thing or another and have been in America for a couple of weeks. 
Anyway Before I went away I had been doing what I thought was right, changing the water regularary, one 11w light on 6 hours a day, good co2 injection and ferts every other day tnp+.  One thing I still haven't sorted though is the filter. A eheim ecco 200 should be here by Friday ( gives me time to order my lily pipes so that's alright 
Now this is what I don't understand!!! 
How come that when I was doing everything right or thought I was the plants never really grew, algae got all over the glass/rocks,  I had hair- algae in my HC which looked terrible. After coming back from holiday after 14 days the plants have gone wild, hc looks very heathy and is pearling which I have never seen it do, hair grass is nearly 30cm long, the riccia which was turning yellow before I went and covered in algae, now looks amazing. The one thing that is bad is the water... Looks like a pond, it's  so green I can't see the back of my tank, fish or shrimp I've done a 50% water change today and it's still looks like Shrek has melted in there! 
I'll probably do a couple more water changes over the week and maybe a 4 day black if that doesn't work.

What the hell is going on can anyone explain how this has happened? A few things I'm confused about are these. 

1/ co2 circulation is poor, filter is really weak and hardy moving the water, also the ceramic diffuser is producing large bubbles not mist. Drop checker is almost blue not the usual yellow.... Why is my hc still alive?  

2/ i haven't been adding ferts - how come plants haven't suffered and seem to be heathy?   

3/ if the water clarity is so poor how is the hc pearling I would have thought it would have blocked at least 50% of the light reaching the bottom? 

This hobby continues to baffle me  I knew I should have just got a hamster!


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## Mrmikey (2 Oct 2010)

Help needed with my co2.

Hi I've have now had my eheim running a week and a bit now and the water seems nice and clean no probelms with it at all. I had the green inlet/outlets in for this period, with my co2 on at 1 bubble per second, loads of bubbles big and small, drop checker showed yellow. definite yellow. shrimp and fish seemed fine.

Yesterday morning I added my glassware I got of ebay, a 9mm inlet and a 12mm outlet. I set my co2 up as normal 1bps and put it exactly in the same poison as before under the inlet. 

when I checked later all my fish and shrimp were at the top gasping. my drop checker was showing green. I sorted it by pulling the inlet out the water to create oxygen so they were ok. 

Once the fish seemed ok i turned my co2 right down, now its doing probably 1 bubble every 7-8 seconds, there is a fine trickly of really small bubbles much much less than last week however its still gassing my fish, drop checker is green not yellow....i cant understand.

Could it be that the new glassware is distributing/dissovling the bubbles much better? still weird i dont full understand has anyone got any ideas?

thanks


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## Mrmikey (2 Oct 2010)

anyway this is were i am at with my nano


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## Nelson (2 Oct 2010)

not sure about your co2 issues,but the tank is looking great   .


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## Mrmikey (2 Oct 2010)

Hi nelson, yeah lm a bit confused I'll just keep it turned down and gradually turn it up over the week should be ok.

Thanks by the way, things are looking up. I will be intrested to see what it looks like when the erectus grows up from behind the big rock. Also hc is going alright!! Still growing, gone greener and hair algae is at bay... Get in!


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## sanj (2 Oct 2010)

Im not seeing California as such, but your nano is coming on nicely indeed.


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## Mrmikey (2 Oct 2010)

Cheers sanj. Your right the titles rubbish should change it to something else like "hell and back"!


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## Nelson (2 Oct 2010)

with the colour of your rocks maybe Utah dreaming   .
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&rl ... 59&bih=846

just don't come knocking on my door preaching mormon to me   .i won't be in  .


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## Mrmikey (3 Oct 2010)

*Re: Dreaming of Utah - nano 30l*

haha i wont dont worry but you never know.

like the name your right looks like the link... utah it is.


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## Nelson (4 Oct 2010)

*Re: Dreaming of Utah - nano 30l*



			
				Mrmikey said:
			
		

> haha i wont dont worry but you never know.


  .

don't think the mama's and the papa's had a song called Dreaming of Utah though   .


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## Mrmikey (5 Oct 2010)

Well it's something for them to think about lol

Tank update still growing well, PH is still a little under par, bit yellow still. Is this a case of upping co2 ? Maybe it's the easycarb ? 
Hc is ok, may let it grow a bit more then  trim it right down and see if it grows thicker especially on the right.


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## Mrmikey (25 Oct 2010)

Well it's been a few weeks and I had to change a few things around in the scape. The erectus in the left corner was blocking the intake thus reducing flow. I think this and the fact my nano co2 isn't being that reliable has resulted in some hair algae still growing in the hc. I did trim it right down about a week and a half ago to try and get more growth, but hasn't really worked. 
I've got a co2 500g  bottle, jbl reg coming tomorrow fingers crossed this really should help. One thing I don't have is a solenoid. I'm going to post an ad in the sale forum.
I also have added sand to my path just to see what it looks like, I think I like it better actually.  
I've also added a few red cherries I got, they are small but seem to have settled in well. If I can get my co2 to be more constant I wouldn't  mind some high grade crs. 
Now, this is a question, I have never bought or even tested my water using a kit. Do you think it's about time I started to give my crs a chance?


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## Mrmikey (25 Oct 2010)

heres a photo update of my tank after the scaping alterations. Im going to smash a bit more rock up and shape the path a little better. I really need to sort out my dosing, i just put 2ml of tnp+ every other day and a about 1ml of excel trace, and about 0.5ml of iron one a week. 
This is an area of the hobby i really need to address as i think my algae problems are a direct link. Also P.H in the corner is yellowing a little, this may be a co2 issue or again my lack of dosing/understanding.
Course of action: set up my new JBL co2, get a solenoid!
                        : learn about dosing


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## Luketendo (25 Oct 2010)

Well I for one think this tank looks fantastic . The sand has added so much to the scape, well done .


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## Mrmikey (25 Oct 2010)

Nice one luke thanks a lot, I'm pretty happy with it at the mo. Glad u agree the sand looks better I think it's really brought it to life as well.


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## Luketendo (26 Oct 2010)

Mrmikey said:
			
		

> Nice one luke thanks a lot, I'm pretty happy with it at the mo. Glad u agree the sand looks better I think it's really brought it to life as well.



Yep it's looking very nature aquarium now . What are the dimensions of this tank because I'm getting a similar proportioned tank soon, allbeit about 3 times smaller but this gives me faith that a good scape can be made out of a cube taller than it is wide.


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## Mrmikey (26 Oct 2010)

Luketendo said:
			
		

> but this gives me faith that a good scape can be made out of a cube taller than it is wide.



I thought this myself, that it was going to be hard to make it look good as everyone seems to have a 30x30x30. I think you'll be fine with one though, looking at your tank im pretty sure you'll come up with something nice. Also ive heard its not the easiest to scape a cube so if you can get them looking good i suppose the worlds your oyster. But believe me when you look at my first scape before I even knew about this forum/hobby it looked crap ha


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## Luketendo (26 Oct 2010)

Yeah well the tank I'm getting is 17cm wide at 22cm tall by 17cm front to back (not including the filter comparment), still puzzled on whether to bother with Iwagumi or get a nice bit of red moor wood or something and moss it up with some high tech plants I've not used before. Going to go all out on it though, CO2 and the lot, probably gonna use the full ADA system if I can afford the initial layout, well dosing isn't a problem as the tank is only 8L max.


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## Mrmikey (26 Oct 2010)

Is the tank going to be ADA as well? If you've got the full set up I'm sure you can't go wrong, I've seen some of the full ADA setups on here and they look class. 
As for your scape I like the sound of hihg tech with moss, only because that's what I want to do. I was thinking a bit of redmoor, a few rocks and loads of moss. I'll probably wait till the new year before I change it, maybe longer as it's take ages just to get it like this! And Â£Â£Â£ ! In the mean time I may move my nano co2 onto my dennerle 20l and properly scape that. At the mo it's just holding my galaxy rasbora, a couple of shrimp and some ottos.
When are you thinking of getting your scape up and running?


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## flygja (26 Oct 2010)

Very NA looking. I'm liking it a lot. With a bit of nice photography, it'll deserve a place in ADA's books  8)


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## Luketendo (26 Oct 2010)

Mrmikey said:
			
		

> Is the tank going to be ADA as well? If you've got the full set up I'm sure you can't go wrong, I've seen some of the full ADA setups on here and they look class.
> As for your scape I like the sound of hihg tech with moss, only because that's what I want to do. I was thinking a bit of redmoor, a few rocks and loads of moss. I'll probably wait till the new year before I change it, maybe longer as it's take ages just to get it like this! And Â£Â£Â£ ! In the mean time I may move my nano co2 onto my dennerle 20l and properly scape that. At the mo it's just holding my galaxy rasbora, a couple of shrimp and some ottos.
> When are you thinking of getting your scape up and running?



Nah not ADA tank, only of those TMC Microhabitat that is free with PFK. Am thinking of getting of getting ADA glassware (diffuser, bubble counter) and cal aqua nano drop checker. Going to user Powersand and Aquasoil and I reckon also Brighty K, Brighty Step and maybe Special Lights. To be honest if I'm successful with this scape I might look into getting something slightly bigger to replace it, maybe in ADA form, but the thing is my knowledge is limited to my moss tank you posted on yesterday.

I'm just waiting for the tank to come from PFK which should be this or next week fingers crossed, then I'm going to get the substrate and hardscape and work out what I can afford from there. I've bookmarked some redmoor pieces on TGM website, thing is it's hard to gauge whether it's that special piece or if it's too big really. Also I have no clue about what plants I want at all really!! Species of plants are much harder to learn than species of coral I find .


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## Mrmikey (27 Oct 2010)

Wicked, bet you can't wait for that nano tank to turn up. All your equipment listed sounds really good, the nano drop checker looks really neat when in place, I love mine.
Have you decided on your substrate yet, I've heard Oliver knott stuff is good for shrimp thanks. I'm still undecided on my 20l, may just have it as shirmp and a few little fish.   
Are you going to do a journal on this? Be good to see/hear how you get on with the Ada ferts, people say they are pretty good.


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## Luketendo (27 Oct 2010)

Mrmikey said:
			
		

> Wicked, bet you can't wait for that nano tank to turn up. All your equipment listed sounds really good, the nano drop checker looks really neat when in place, I love mine.
> Have you decided on your substrate yet, I've heard Oliver knott stuff is good for shrimp thanks. I'm still undecided on my 20l, may just have it as shirmp and a few little fish.
> Are you going to do a journal on this? Be good to see/hear how you get on with the Ada ferts, people say they are pretty good.



Turned up today, going to order Aquasoil and Powersand probably tomorrow, still having a hard time deciding on hardscape though. I am going to do a journal but I can't guarantee my tank will be any good .


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

bit of an update. I sent Clive a message and these are the replies questions.


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

Hey Ceg,

Just wanna check something out with you about my tank. If you remember I have a 30l tank and am running a eheim ecco 200. 

My goal from day one was to grow perfect hc, Im having a little trouble with hair algae all over it and a tiny bit of bba at the front. Everything I read about this says Co2 fluctuation and poor circulation are the cause. Actually I see you mention it a hell of a lot. 

My glass lili pipe off ebay is flowing right over the hc, I can see it moving about when turn up full which it is, so I cant imagine it is circulation problems but then again...

would adding these pipes reduces flow? or do you think its a isssue with my CO2 fluctuating or maybe not being high enough. 

Ive seen you mention co2 is the biggest headache and it seems that way. When I get the drop checker to show green/yellow the fish gasp in the morning at the surface. This was when the hc looked its best about 4 weeks ago. Trouble is I have some CRS and am trying to avoid massive PH swings using the solenoid. Some people say its ok to run co2 24/7 but quite low. I just want to check with you and ask you opinion on this, flow, co2 lol sorry to be a pain but you are the master

Cheers mike


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

Hi Mike,
Sorry for my tardy response mate. Got sidetracked with a couple of other issues.

OK so yeah, hair and BBA are all about CO2, CO2, CO2....Of course, light energy, flow/distribution and injection timing are all part of this equation. We need to keep this in mind because if we focus only on CO2 injection rate then this could become toxic to fauna.

Hair algae occurs when the concentration is inadequate, while BBA is more related to fluctuation of the concentration.

CO2 run at 24/7 is OK. Guys like Dan Crawford have good luck with this technique so you can try it and see how you get on. Naturally, Dan doesn't go over the top with his lighting so his CO2 demands are not excessive. That contributes to his success with this technique.

Using a solenoid, you can drive the tank to short periods of high CO2 by lights on then, shut the gas off much earlier so that this reduces the overnight stress. CO2 is more important during the first 4-5 hours of the photoperiod. It's much less important in the afternoon, so solenoid users need to shut the gas off earlier than is commonly thought. I typically shut off my gas 3-4 hours prior to lights off so that by morning the fauna are not stressed. The gas goes on 1.5 to 2 hours before lights on so I get decent saturation and a lime green to yellow dropchecker as soon as the lights go on. This optimizes carbon fixation and lowers environmental stress.

As I mentioned though, If your PAR values are over the top then the required CO2 concentration levels to avoid hair and BBA will always be lethal. People are always going over the top with lighting, especially with HC.

Cheers,


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

Hi Clive,

Now i must apologise for my late late response, ive been off the boil lately and focussing my efforts on my art by learning how to screen print.

Do you ever feel like you are banging your head against a wall talking to people like me! ha 

It seems that my problems are down to me, probably by not listening to people like you!. You get conflicting opinions on here so I've started to print off your posts and suggestions and am building a little book of trouble shooting for myself. But the more I read obviously the more i understand.

So my BBA and hair algae are down to, yes I should have guessed poor co2 application. I have to admit now i have let my tank slip as I am still waiting for a proper jbl co2 set up to arrive. I just dont think the nano one i have cuts the mustard. I find that when the little 95g canister gets low bubble rate speeds up. Also the diffuser when clean produces tiny micro bubbles and then within a day or two get bigger. I imagine this again contributes to co2 fluctuation, which in turn triggers BBA and not enough co2 produces hair algae. 

However it is not only my HC that is suffering it is also my Pogostemon Helferi. The HC is covered in hair algae and my Pogostemon Helferi just doesn't seem to grow and looks weak, again probably down to poor co2 consistency and another factor my poor dosing. 

After reading a lot of your threads (again) i have come to to the conclusion I am defiantly doing something wrong. 

I have dropped the lighting from 2 x 11w arcpods to just a single 18w superfish light. Even though nothing has improved and I dont see it improving until i have my jbl regulator. 

when it arrives i plan a new corse of action. In one of your millions of useful posts i found this.

"post blackout, continue EI dosing, as high a CO2 as the fish can handle + Excel. Keep the lighting levels low. It will take a few weeks for the Rubisco synthesis to build enough of the protein to be useful at CO2 uptake (then you'll see real improvement.) 

I believe this may be the reason my Pogostemon Helferi is suffering. As I understand it I have baked my plants with light while not providing them sufficient nutrients and co2. The co2 becoming almost redundant because protein levels in the plants have dropped so low it is exhausting them, thus failure to grow (Rubisco synthesis)?. 

So when this jbl turns up sometime this week, I am going to use my solenoid like you suggested and get co2 levels high in the morning and then switch it off 3 hours before lights off. Another thing that is going to change is my dosing. I probably have 2 more days worth of TPN+ and then im switching to EL dosing and mixing my own. I've read your tutorial on this and it seems to make sense so why not give it a try?. When i get the salts I will check ive done it right and will give it a whirl. I will not be beaten by a tiny little plant!!

I think maybe I over complicate matter and I may be wrong but it is on the surface quite simple:

keep light low (as long as plants look heathy),keep co2 and dosing high, good circulation, use easycarb daily.
water change 50% once/twice a week.

if algae is present up co2, up circulation but keep dosing as its not the nutrients that cause the algae, and even if it did once plants establish and grow they will out compete them.

I DO need to crack this as Ive ordered a 60cm optiwhite, and i dont want to double my disappointments! I will not be beaten by a tiny little plant!!! haha its at least 10 nil up!

Im dyslexic so hope this reads ok.

Thanks again clive, 

p.s have you ever writen a book? coz you should!


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

Hi Mike,
Yeah, I'd love to get together with my mates (George F. et al) and write a book. We could do a lot of myth busting I'm sure. Internet's pretty effective though. I've had folks from all over request permission to translate our articles to many different languages.

You've pretty much summarized what needs to be done. I can't recall which thread you pulled my quote from but it sounds like I might have been responding to someone who would have been going from a low CO2 environment to a high CO2 one. It's under these conditions that the Rubisco production rate becomes relevant. Under high CO2 the plant becomes "lazy" and lowers Rubisco content of the leaves. It doesn't have to be as efficient if the environment has lots of CO2. When the CO2 levels fall however, more Rubisco needs to be produce so that they can capture and transport the fewer CO2 molecules.

The irony of high CO2 concentration levels is that the plants then become more susceptible to falling levels or fluctuating levels since their Rubisco content is lower. Under lower CO2 conditions the plant is more robust because it has a higher Rubisco content. This is a bit of a Catch-22 and it's one of the things that makes CO2 application so difficult. But again, it all starts with the light. High PAR levels cause this tightrope act to develop.

Personally, I would be more inclined to use the two 11 watt bulbs because you'll have better control, not less control. All you really have to do is to use a single bulb for a greater percentage of the time. If most of the day, the tank sees only 11 watts this helps. You really only need the second bulb when you want to view the tank. If the 11 watt and the 18 watt bulbs are both T5 then there won't be that much difference between 22 watts and 18 watts.

Flow/distribution is the other issue. George Farmer uses 25X flow rating filter in his smaller tanks for example. That gets water moving into the plant beds and force feeds the leaves. I prefere stronger filters to powerheads. I just fee that you have better flow directional control with the filters, especially when using a spraybar. George uses lily pipes, but uses that higher flow rating so the efficiency loss of the pipes is compensated for.

In any case you definitely need better CO2 equipment. You may even want to check out the Fire Extinguisher methods as this will be cheaper in the long run.

Also remember that plants cannot compete with algae. They would lose every time. Algae are predators and plants are the prey. It's not a matter of competition between the two. It's merely that plants in good health can resist the attacks.

Cheers,


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

Hi Mate,

I've had folks from all over request permission to translate our articles to many different languages.
Im not surprised one bit! I defiantly think you should get together with george and co and get a book out there. Your knowledge should be in hard back and Im sure it would go down a treat.  Where did you get all you info? you must have done some serious reading!! But the best bit about your posts are the way they are written and you're ability to convey a point thats easy to understand.....writing   

It's under these conditions that the Rubisco production rate becomes relevant. Under high CO2 the plant becomes "lazy" and lowers Rubisco content of the leaves. It doesn't have to be as efficient if the environment has lots of CO2.
I cant remember now either but i recall the guy had been away and reduced his light and algae had subsided. When he got back he banged up the lights and it all when terrible wrong. I think your advice was to leave lights and turn up co2 and up dosing.

The irony of high CO2 concentration levels is that the plants then become more susceptible to falling levels or fluctuating levels since their Rubisco content is lower. Under lower CO2 conditions the plant is more robust because it has a higher Rubisco content. This is a bit of a Catch-22 and it's one of the things that makes CO2 application so difficult. But again, it all starts with the light. High PAR levels cause this tightrope act to develop.


I love this hobby you dont stop learning, this is probably why my Pogostemon Helferi in my other tank does so well, i dont really try and grow anything in there it just does. Keep it under low light and I dont even put ferts in. Again illustrating the fact that lighting is the catalyst for disaster unless you up everything to match. 

If most of the day, the tank sees only 11 watts this helps.

ok im gonna try and just use 11w now and see how i go. Your right i only like the hi light for veiwing so ill be good and try and leave the think alone. For me I like to try these things even though Im sure you told me to use 11w before. Maybe you gotta experience the problems and push you tank to find a level that your happy with. im getting there.

Flow/distribution is the other issue. George Farmer uses 25X flow rating filter in his smaller tanks for example. That gets water moving into the plant beds and force feeds the leaves. I prefere stronger filters to powerheads. I just fee that you have better flow directional control with the filters, especially when using a spraybar. George uses lily pipes, but uses that higher flow rating so the efficiency loss of the pipes is compensated for.


yeah this is a bummer i wish i got the next size up 700lph eheim instead. Oh well seems to be doing a good job with the water quality but may have to add a tunze mini pump aswell. I think i could get better flow with the spray bar but love the glassware. Cant wait to get diffuser out and use inline heard people say there pretty good. 

In any case you definitely need better CO2 equipment. You may even want to check out the Fire Extinguisher methods as this will be cheaper in the long run.
think im going to need to make a cabinat, my filters on the floor and co2 canister will be like a bomb next to my bed.   

Also remember that plants cannot compete with algae. They would lose every time. Algae are predators and plants are the prey. It's not a matter of competition between the two. It's merely that plants in good health can resist the attacks.
thanks for correcting me makes more sense if you think about it.

may copy and past these into my journal if ok.

Thanks again mate,

mike


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

Yeah mate, no worries, just do me a favor and fix all my spelling mistakes...  

Inline diffusers work so much better than in-tank units because you get better mixing. If you can port the output to a spraybar then you get a very good distribution, but even the lily pipes will do better than some disk stuck in the corner. In-tank units have a more random distribution because the CO2 concentration has to work it's way across the tank. Any inline brand or type will work, DIY, Aquamedic, UpAtomizer, CalAqua, whatever. It's the principle that works.

People really do get hooked on light. I'm an addict myself and I don't think I'll ever recover, but whenever I'm planning a tank setup the very first thing I think about, above all else is how I will accomplish CO2 and flow distribution. Everything else is designed around that implementation plan.

Cheers,
Clive


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## Mrmikey (13 Dec 2010)

So heres the tank update with new bits and bobs:

30l 
18w super fish
eheim ecco pro 
tunze mini pump
jbl co2 reg, 500g bottles
solenoid
dry ferts
inline heater

hopefully I have most bases covered

Ok, due to waiting for all this stuff to come in the plants have taken a beating and things just melted and died. So i took this opportunity to cut back the erectus and re-tie the riccia, get rid of hair algae, take out 95% of hc. So now the tank looks pretty sorry for itself. (about a weekago )

Here are the ferts I got, pretty good for Â£16 and great service even with the snow. Looks very impressive but one of the bottles had pre mixed powders in so all i had to do was add water...basically cheap tpn+ based on james planted tank. Not sure what all the % are to make it up but seems to be doing the trick.






I say that because I have noticed algae hair algae hasnt really grown back, just left over bits on riccia. The glass seems to be staying cleaner longer which is good and today all the riccia and left over hc started pearling.

 I have the pumped up the co2 in the mornings as the drop checker wasnt really changing colour till mid afternoon i think this has helped alot. Now it goes yellow so maybe a bit too much, I think my fish were stressing. With a few tweaks hopefully i will sort it out before HC x3 pots turns up tomorrow. 

Overall looking optimistic, plants defiantly healthier, pogostemon helferi melted badly, went yellow but has bounced back! its a miracle! even got some buds sprouting


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## Nelson (13 Dec 2010)

well i hope you get it sorted mate as i still love this tank   .
i'd have probably given up,learnt nothing,started again and got the same problems   .


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## Mrmikey (14 Dec 2010)

Hi nelson, haha believe me I've wanted to start again many times over! I'm using this scape to learn and I said to myself that I will only do a new scape when I can get this one looking good. Also I want to grow the plants a little more and use them on my next scape to save some money. Think it will be very simple


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## Nelson (30 Jan 2011)

how's this coming along now.


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## Mrmikey (1 Feb 2011)

Hi nelson, thanks mate but I decided to start again with new scape. I haven't set it up yet and the tank is in a right mess. Been pretty busy lately so haven't been posting much. 
Why did I take it apart? Well I thought I had my co2 sorted... But I found it hard to get the co2 high enough for the hc. I bought some new pots from greenmachine and they just melted away?... So I though sod this and try something new with a bit less hassle. Might try it with Narrow leaf java, glosso and a bit of moss I'm trying to grow in my 20l. Can't wait to get it sorted again. I'd love some good manzi wood or a good root but I haven't got the cash... saving for filter for my 60l coming in the next two weeks however if tom barr ever gets back to me on the manzi wood I might be well in as I'd sell if the other bits I didn't use.


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## nayr88 (1 Feb 2011)

That's a shame it came down, I was just about to say its been a good read and how good the scape looks. Then you chuck it out the your scraped it 

That's odd that the HC from the green machine melted even with decent flow fert and co2, and the lights OK aswell. Well your moss was posted yesterday and that grows and grows haha

I don't think Tom does small amounts of Manzi anymore.


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## Mrmikey (1 Feb 2011)

Ha thanks mate was sad to see it go but I'll try something a little different. I hope that moss does grow well, very very slow in my tank , maybe with some co2 it will come to life. Yeah I think he said that he could do me a box, bit then he vanished lol think he said it would cost about £170 to post some over....


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## Nelson (1 Feb 2011)

thats a shame mate   .i know the feeling well   .

oh well,on to the next one   .


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## logi-cat (2 Feb 2011)

love the hardscape, choice of plants and the path, compliments the tank really well


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