# Moved Tank... Lost Almost Everything Instantly?!



## jagillham (2 Aug 2018)

Hi everybody,

Terrible night last night. Took 5 large Torpedo Barbs, about 8 Rummy Nose Tetra, 4 Cardinal Tetras, 2 Otos, 1 Cory and some Amanio Shrimp. Netted from old tank, into a large cool box, driven the 5-6 mins to new house, then submerged the cool box into new tank.

Stupidly, I didn’t acclimatise thinking it’s the same water chemistry. Almost instantly lost one the torpedo barbs, followed by the rest within the hour. They just seemed to be unable to keep the right way up. Whole bunch of the Rummys and cardinals also displayed same signs.

This morning (approx 7hrs later) all I have left is the otos, Cory and shrimp.

Could it be osmosis shock? Is it that quick? Can’t be ammonia etc, far far too quick for that in new water. The tank is new, could something in the tank done it?

Gutted.


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## Edvet (2 Aug 2018)

If the waterchemistry is the same in the two places ( doesn't have to be) then i suppose there is something in the new tank.
On the other hand maybe the new place has chlorine/chloramine added to the water.
I would find the water report and find out. If not fill and rinse the new tank 3 or 4 times. ( How long ago did you use the silicone?)


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## ian_m (2 Aug 2018)

Did you dechlorinate ?


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## zozo (2 Aug 2018)

Sorry for your loss, that's indeed terrible.. I also think there likely is/was something toxic in the tank. Temperatur or water parameters such as pH difference doesn't kill fish that quick than it must be realy extreme. Also ammonia or nitrite even tho it is toxic it doesn't kill that quick.

I never acclimatise new fish longer than a few minutes, they go from the bag into the same amount of tankwater in a bucket and are netted out and moved to the tank within minutes. Never have problems with that.

Is it a high tech tank?. Because with the use of co2 than acclimatisation is very important. Putting the fish suddenly from co2 depleted water in a high co2 concentration definitively will suffocate them..

I once made that mistake with my first co2 aqaurium.. Almost lost a complete school of new tetras, had to do a immediate 80% water change to safe them. Because all went upside down within a few minutes.. While the others already in there and used to the higher co2 concentration were totaly ok..


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## jagillham (2 Aug 2018)

Tank silicone would have been a couple of weeks. I did silicone (HA6) 2 connectors, which left 24hrs before adding water, and further 24 before adding fish.

Did solvent weld a stand pipe into the connector before adding water several hours later, then 24hr before fish. I’m guessing that’s my issue now I’m thinking about it. Damn.

Didn’t use prime, didn’t even get a chance. I thought that was more for the filter bacteria? Normally I’d 50% water change then add prime without issue.


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## ian_m (2 Aug 2018)

jagillham said:


> Didn’t use prime, didn’t even get a chance. I thought that was more for the filter bacteria? Normally I’d 50% water change then add prime without issue.


This fish can also be affected by chorine/chloramine, it burns their gills and can asphyxiate them. The sudden loss does seem to indicate chlorine/chloramine present in fatal levels. You should always dechlorinate the water before adding to the tank.


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## jagillham (2 Aug 2018)

Do we know what ppm would be toxic enough to kill that quickly? As I say, I’ve always filled from mains, then added prime for years without issue. Pre treating around 250l per week for EI changes will be a nightmare.

The solvent weld makes more sense to me,but I’m just guessing.


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## jagillham (2 Aug 2018)

Old House: https://www.southernwater.co.uk/media/default/pdfs/ZK505.pdf
New House: https://www.southernwater.co.uk/media/default/pdfs/ZK513.pdf

Might mean more to somebody than me!


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## tam (2 Aug 2018)

For a water change, you can empty the water you plan to remove, dose prime equal to the tank volume when full and then refill with fresh water. 

Otos and corys can gulp oxygen from the surface which is absorbed through their gut, so they are often survivors in situations when low oxygen causes issues for everything else: https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.../why-do-corydoras-take-gulps-from-the-surface


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## jagillham (2 Aug 2018)

Thanks. Doing a bit a reading, seems water companies can up / switch chlorine & chloramine - particularly in hot weather. So that would make sense given the recent heatwave.

Not seen the Cory or Otos go for the surface interestingly in the new tank.

A local sellers has a group of Torpedo Barbs, which I want to replace, but I'm quite scared of doing anything without being absolutely sure of the cause.


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## ian_m (2 Aug 2018)

jagillham said:


> As I say, I’ve always filled from mains, then added prime for years without issue


A pointed out, should add Prime to tank, then water to neutralise the chlorine/chloramine as the water is added, and filters off as well.


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## rebel (3 Aug 2018)

Could it have have been lack of O2?


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## jagillham (3 Aug 2018)

Thanks all. I'm not sure I'll ever know for certain, and I'm scared to touch anything now for the risk of killing the rest.

I wouldn't be too much CO2 @zozo as it was just an empty tank I'd filled from the tap. Equally can't see it being lack of O2 either @rebel as the water would have been aerated when filling up (I had the hose above the water level).

I'm trying to think about the timelines for the day. I know I added Prime to the tank, but I think this was near/close to when I collected the first batch of fish. I did a second run, which was the hard to catch fish.... Otos, the Cory & 2 of the shrimp... which are my survivors.

The Otos and Cory seem to be OK still, and I randomly spotted one cardinal this morning looking fine too.

So yes, looks like it was the untreated water @ian_m 

I've never known tap water to do that, so I'm really shocked and kicking myself too. For many, many years I've filled up with tap, then added Prime at the end - never had an issue with it until now. I can only assume there is some change in the tap water related to the unusually hot weather.

May have to rethink my semi-automatic water changes. The way this works is the tap fills from tap until it overflows (to drain), then I'd shut off, and Prime to appropriate dosage for the tank. Seeing what this can do in an hour now.... really shocking.


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## jagillham (3 Aug 2018)

https://www.salmon-trout.org/wp-con...lorinated-compounds-in-freshwater-systems.pdf

Wow - Just read this. I think it's a perfect storm scenario unfortunately for my fish... 



> In water at pH values above 5, elemental chlorine reacts rapidly. This reaction results in the formation of hypochlorous acid (HOCl) in equilibrium with hypochlorite ions (OCl-), known as ‘free chlorine’ (Camargo, 1991). At pH 7 and a temperature of 25°C, 70% of chlorine will be present as HOCl and at pH 8, 80% of chlorine will be present as OCl- (Sorokin _et al_. 2007). Hypochlorous acid is more toxic than the hypochlorite ion; HOCl can penetrate cells and react with cell enzymes. It is this property that makes chlorine particularly toxic to aquatic organisms (Moore, 1951).



Being in Kent, my PH is normally around 8.4, and ofcourse given the current weather temp would have been around 25°C too.

Article further goes on to say over 48hr period 50% lethality for the fish tested was 0.045 - 0.278 mg/l for Chlorine. Looking at the 2017 water report, the average level was 0.42 mg/l, up to 0.7mg/l. As far as I can tell, water companies can go to 5.0 and be 'human safe' by WHO guidelines.



> Rosenberger (1971) found that free chlorine was the most toxic form of chlorine to coho salmon, through the action of attacking gill tissue. It was observed that larger individuals died faster than smaller ones; this was attributed to larger fish having less gill surface area per unit body



Again, it was my 3"-4" Torpedo Barbs that went first, before the Rummy Nose Tetra.


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## ian_m (3 Aug 2018)

jagillham said:


> I've never known tap water to do that, so I'm really shocked and kicking myself too. For many, many years I've filled up with tap, then added Prime at the end - never had an issue with it until now. I can only assume there is some change in the tap water related to the unusually hot weather.


I have seen it being reported that chloramine is being injected into UK water (instead of chlorine) due to current hot weather. Chloramine lasts longer in the water pipes, especially in hot weather, but I think this is due to possible lower water pressure and to neutralise anything that gets into the water pipes.
A Guy called Rory (will find link somewhere) lost £650 of fish when water had chloramine added due to emergency water pipe work (as opposed to standard chlorine) and as he only let his water stand 24hours before use, completely wiped out all his fish. Chloramine is very toxic to fish & filter bacteria, but is easily neutralise by a sufficient dose of Prime, before water enters the tank.


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## Zeus. (3 Aug 2018)

ian_m said:


> I have seen it being reported that chloramine is being injected into UK water (instead of chlorine) due to current hot weather. Chloramine lasts longer in the water pipes, especially in hot weather, but I think this is due to possible lower water pressure and to neutralise anything that gets into the water pipes.
> A Guy called Rory (will find link somewhere) lost £650 of fish when water had chloramine added due to emergency water pipe work (as opposed to standard chlorine) and as he only let his water stand 24hours before use, completely wiped out all his fish. Chloramine is very toxic to fish & filter bacteria, but is easily neutralise by a sufficient dose of Prime, before water enters the tank.



Good to know Ian 
What would be a classed as a sufficient dose to combat the chloramine? Normal dose off prime for volume or multiple?


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## jagillham (3 Aug 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Good to know Ian
> What would be a classed as a sufficient dose to combat the chloramine? Normal dose off prime for volume or multiple?



Seems Seachem suggest x2 dose when present

(https://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/freshwater-community/335-chloramines)


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## tam (3 Aug 2018)

I imagine you usually only do something like a 50% water change too, so 100% new water would have double the amount as it wouldn't be diluted 50/50.

If you have buckets you pre-mix then dose the volume of the bucket. If you are filling the tank from a hose then you dose the volume of the tank when full.


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## ian_m (3 Aug 2018)

Prime just says single dose will remove chlorine and chloramine.

I did read, that if using ye olde, but ridiculously cheap, sodium thiosulphate method you need to double dose it.

Here is sodium thiosulphate with chlorine.



and reaction with chloramine, needs twice the amount.



Any finally Prime instructions.


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## Zeus. (3 Aug 2018)

So X2


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## rebel (4 Aug 2018)

I double dose everytime because I cant measure the Chlorine or Chloramine in my tap. Also I dont trust my old hot water cylinder.


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## rebel (4 Aug 2018)

You can triple or quad dose as long as temperature is too high.


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