# My water params - please check?



## AndrewH (29 Jan 2013)

Nitrate - between 50 and 100
Nitrite - 0
GH - 12 dH
KH - 3 dH
pH - 6.8

These are hot off the press as it were, from a Tetra "6 in 1" test strip.

Im slightly worried about my Kh reading.
I know we live in a hard water area (limescale on taps and in fishtank where evaporation has occured) but the KH seems so low that Im worried about a crash or other scary happening.

For context, this is a tank with a few low tech plants (anubias, microsorum) and happy fish and shrimp.
However, it has no CO2, no ferts.

Ive read alot on here about water chemistry, but must admit that this is the one area Im struggling to get my head around most. Maybe Im still in The Matrix?!

In two weeks the tank will be undergoing a huge rescape with even the gravel being changed.
It will have CO2 and daily fert dosing, as well as large amounts of plants and ADA Africana substrate.
Do I have cause for concern with these water parameters?
Thanks guys.


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## ceg4048 (30 Jan 2013)

AndrewH said:


> Ive read alot on here about water chemistry, but must admit that this is the one area Im struggling to get my head around most. Maybe Im still in The Matrix?!


Yes, if you still think that any Nitrate test kit has relevance.



AndrewH said:


> Do I have cause for concern with these water parameters?


No, maybe you should throw away your test kit and just get on with the business of growing plants? Wasting time and money on test kits will not help you to be more successful.

Cheers,


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## AndrewH (30 Jan 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> No, maybe you should throw away your test kit and just get on with the business of growing plants? Wasting time and money on test kits will not help you to be more successful.



Lol brilliant. thanks Clive!
I believe I have just swallowed the red pill.


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## AndrewH (30 Jan 2013)

Uh oh, the "old world" knowledge just doesnt want to leave my skull....

Im processing what you said, and one point in particular still worries me.
Perhaps you guys can help me to work it out.

On the back of my ADA Africana soil it says it will lower the KH of my water. At already only 3 dKH Im worried this will really bottom it out.
Also, starting to inject CO2 will lower my pH as well, right? So at an already lower value of about 6.8; will that mean that the fish Ive got who have been picked to fit my water will suffer?
And finally, does it mean when buying new fish that I now need to consider these lower values?

Just wanted to idiot check for the sake of my fish.
Sorry for the flapping!


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## ceg4048 (30 Jan 2013)

Well, we're gonna have to change your moniker to a bird with all that flapping. 

Fish really don't care about pH and there will be little, if any effect due to the lower pH from CO2 addition. What you should be worried about, new fish or old fish is whether you have injected too much CO2 because CO2 will kill fish. That's all you have to worry about, and really that's enough because that is one of the most dangerous things we use. Keeping your tank clean with lots of large water changes and not overdoing the CO2 will keep your fish happy. None of that other stuff is anywhere nearly as important as that. Fish, especially Amazonian fish, come from waters which have really low pH due to tannic acid runoff, and which have really low alkalinity, so why people freak out over these things is beyond my comprehension.

Cheers,


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## AndrewH (30 Jan 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Why people freak out over these things is beyond my comprehension.,



Cause all these wonderful companies exist which tell us all about the 'amazing science' behind their latest 'must have' product!

Really appreciate your help mate.
That has put my mind at rest (for now)

Now....im off to find a bird picture


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## dw1305 (30 Jan 2013)

Hi all,


AndrewH said:


> limescale on taps and in fishtank where evaporation has occured


That is much more relevant and I can tell you unequivocally you don't have 3dKH. If you are still worried, you can always add 10% tap water to your water changes.


AndrewH said:


> For context, this is a tank with a few low tech plants (anubias, microsorum) and happy fish and shrimp. However, it has no CO2, no ferts....It will have CO2 and daily fert dosing, as well as large amounts of plants and ADA Africana substrate. Do I have cause for concern with these water parameters?


I would always have concerns when any one goes "high tech", "_if it ain't broke don't fix it_" would be very much my rationale. Personally I would stay low tech, up your water changes (I assume you aren't doing any/many?) and use the "Duckweed Index". You can grow a lot more plants than just _Anubias_ and Ferns low tech. I've always got spare plants.


ceg4048 said:


> Yes, if you still think that any Nitrate test kit has relevance.


Ditto, chuck the strips away. I've got access to a whole lab full of analytical kit, and the expertise to use it, and I still can't get repeatable results for a lot of parameters.

cheers Darrel


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## AndrewH (30 Jan 2013)

Brilliant info Darrel, cheers mate.
Its hard to believe that the testing is so "flimsy" - Im an Apple mobile programmer and in the depths of code routines and bug fixing the golden rule is always "Is it repeatable?" - can you get exactly the same results every time. If not, then its no good.
Sounds very similar to what you are saying.

Im going high-tech basically because I want to try my hand at some very heavily planted "nature" style aquariums. (also as a bit of a project to be honest)

Up until a month ago I used to do 33% water change every two weeks.
Then I switched to the wonderful hosepipe idea in LondonDragon's thread and am now doing 50% every week - just to get me used to it before the EI dosing begins.
These are (and always have been) tap water. Only now I put the dechlorinator straight into the tank, and use the hot tap water rather than boiling kettles to match the temperature.

Re: water hardness.
The limescale on house taps, and mineral deposits on side of tank after evaporation - I thought that was showing me the GH (or at least Total Hardness) - ie the amount of Mag/Calcium ions in my water?
I didnt think this had any bearing on KH?


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## Ady34 (30 Jan 2013)

Yeah as said, don't worry about the testing. my water board stats show I have around 2.5kh tap water which i like you, i used to worry about. I use my tap water alongside ADA substrates and co2 injection and have no issues with my fish. im guessing youll be opting for acidic, soft water loving fish so am sure there will be no issue. I also have very low GH so add a few teaspoons of ca and mg salts at water change time just to ensure no shortfall for the plants.
Cheerio
Ady


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## dw1305 (30 Jan 2013)

Hi all,


AndrewH said:


> Its hard to believe that the testing is so "flimsy" - Im an Apple mobile programmer and in the depths of code routines and bug fixing the golden rule is always "Is it repeatable?" - can you get exactly the same results every time. If not, then its no good. Sounds very similar to what you are saying


It is possible to get repeatable results for most ions etc with dedicated kit like a water company will have, but you are talking £100K's of kit and staff to use it.Cations (K+, Ca++ etc) are easy, if you access to an Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer <Atomic absorption spectroscopy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>, but a lot of anions (NO3-) and gases (NH4+) are more problematical, even with ion selective electrodes <Ion selective electrode - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>. Once you are dealing with more complex molecules you are into the realms of HPLC <High-performance liquid chromatography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia> and GC <Gas chromatography - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>, which are much less straight forward and the results require some interpretation.

A lot of people in the water industry use IC (ion chromatography) techniques for nearly everything <Dionex - Water Analysis Applications> & <http://www.dionex.com/en-us/webdocs/111539-CAN114-HighThroughputICAnionsBromate-21Dec2011-LPN3023%5B1%5D.pdf>.

Most test kits use simple titrimetric methods, and in some cases these may work really well, but you often have problems with interference from other ions etc.

If you want a more complete measure of water quality you are into the realms of BOD (Biochemical Oxygen Demand) <Biochemical oxygen demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>, and again that needs dedicated equipment.


AndrewH said:


> The limescale on house taps, and mineral deposits on side of tank after evaporation - I thought that was showing me the GH (or at least Total Hardness) - ie the amount of Mag/Calcium ions in my water? I didnt think this had any bearing on KH?


It shows you have both, the scale deposit is calcium carbonate (CaCO3), so it tells you have both dGH (the permanent hardness, and measure of multivalent cations) and dKH, a measure of the carbonate alkalinity.

cheers Darrel


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## AndrewH (30 Jan 2013)

dw1305 said:


> ...if you access to an Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer, but a lot of anions (NO3-) and gases (NH4+) are more problematical, even with ion selective electrodes. Once you are dealing with more complex molecules you are into the realms of HPLC and GC, which are much less straight forward and the results require some interpretation.


 
yeah. what he said. 

Cheers for the info darrel, and actually I love science so while I wont pretend to have understood everything, I can grasp the basics and understand what you are saying about my hard water both in GH and KH.

Appreciated everyone! Thanks again guys.


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## Manrock (2 Feb 2013)

AndrewH said:


> Then I switched to the wonderful hosepipe idea in LondonDragon's thread


 
Any chance you could point me to this - any ideas to make water changes less hassle are more than welcome!

Cheers


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## AndrewH (2 Feb 2013)

Manrock said:


> Any chance you could point me to this - any ideas to make water changes less hassle are more than welcome!



Here it is mate...
DIY Water Changer, No more buckets!! | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## Manrock (2 Feb 2013)

Many thanks.


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## jack-rythm (21 Mar 2013)

Hi guys. I agree on everything said so this is more out of curiosity than  a question of need but if it is said by clive that fish don't care about ph then is there honestly no difference in keeping certain fish that appear to need different levels of ph ? Maybe Im not making sense. Im saying that i was told cichlids need hard water and discuss need soft. Are you saying this is bull ? Can we keep any fresh water fish in the same parameter? If not how would you suggest we make sure the tank is suitable? I know discuss can be very expensive so just testing it with one discuss seems irrational. And ideas?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (22 Mar 2013)

jack-rythm said:


> Hi guys. I agree on everything said so this is more out of curiosity than  a question of need but if it is said by clive that fish don't care about ph then is there honestly no difference in keeping certain fish that appear to need different levels of ph ? Maybe Im not making sense. Im saying that i was told cichlids need hard water and discuss need soft. Are you saying this is bull ? Can we keep any fresh water fish in the same parameter? If not how would you suggest we make sure the tank is suitable? I know discuss can be very expensive so just testing it with one discuss seems irrational. And ideas?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2



Hey jack,
Im no expert, but its to do with the mineral content of the water itself. Search for Osmoregulation.

I think putting hard water species in low mineral water, draws minerals from the fish themselves and this causes ill health.

Cheers,


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## jack-rythm (22 Mar 2013)

Thanks Nathan. So how does one test this to make sure the levels are suitable with out buying and using inaccurate test kits?

I know clive stated fish don't care about ph. Are you saying its not the ph they are sensitive too its the salt minerals in the water?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (22 Mar 2013)

jack-rythm said:


> Thanks Nathan. So how does one test this to make sure the levels are suitable with out buying and using inaccurate test kits?
> 
> I know clive stated fish don't care about ph. Are you saying its not the ph they are sensitive too its the salt minerals in the water?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2



A  TDS meter or (even better?) an Electrical Conductivity meter will allow you to find the measure of the dissolved solids or electrical conductivity of the water. Then Its a case of trying to work out what is what from you water report.

If say, you mix 50% tap (200 TDS)  with your RO, it has a direct correlation To TDS. So  the TDS will be half of what is in your tap (100 TDS).

Your best off using TDS as a general
Rule mate, as this will indicate calcium and magnesium present, which if increased, will increase pH.


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## jack-rythm (22 Mar 2013)

Cheers nath. Are ph test kits just as inaccurate as other kits? Or are they generally more reliable? 

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (22 Mar 2013)

jack-rythm said:


> Cheers nath. Are ph test kits just as inaccurate as other kits? Or are they generally more reliable?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2



This will be more reliable and easy to use:

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=271167594673&index=1&nav=SEARCH&nid=42463730618


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