# Darrell's (dw1305's) soil thread



## dw1305

Hi all


> That's interesting  It's literally soil dug up, burnt and sieved.


 is 100% correct. I've got quite a lot of soil samples, out of the furnace in the lab (this burns out the OM at 500 oC to give you the percentage organic for your soil) if any-one wants to experiment with them? 

The technical term is "calcining", and it is how they create "hydroleca", "Seramis" "Turface" etc.  The advantage is that the clay is irreversibly converted to a solid (for example bone ash and Kaolinite calcined at 1200oC is "bone china"), but if the process is not at too high a temperature it retains it's CEC.

The reason these products tend to be red is if the soil contain any iron it becomes fully oxidised (same reason is why "house bricks" are red).

cheers Darrel


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## Steve Smith

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Interesting stuff!  So does that mean you could theoretically create one of these expensive soils using any soil, to give the same product (more or less) or does the contents of the soil matter in the first place?


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## dw1305

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Hi all,
Yes I think it does. I collected some fairly heavy acid clay with the intention of calcining it in the lab. furnace, unfortunately I can only do small amount at a time, so I rolled the clay into balls (with added "growmore") to use as slow release substrate fertiliser tabs. I've used them in the tank, but not in a scientific manner, and it maybe that the NP&K had vaporised in the furnace.

If you had access to a potters kiln, for example, you could pellet a large amount of  clay soil through a sieve and make any size of pellet you liked. 

I should have some 2mm sieved calcined calcareous clay if anyone wants to have a go with it?

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting  It's literally soil dug up, burnt and sieved.
> 
> 
> 
> is 100% correct. I've got quite a lot of soil samples, out of the furnace in the lab (this burns out the OM at 500 oC to give you the percentage organic for your soil) if any-one wants to experiment with them?
> 
> cheers Darrel
Click to expand...


Hi Darrell,

I would like to experiment with it..  

How much to post a 5kg to London?


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## dw1305

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Hi Luis,
I'm not sure how much I've got, it probably won't be 5kg. Don't worry about the postage, I've got your address, so I'll post a sample.
cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Thanks Darrel,

Much appreciated..  

I will use the sample you send on the 20cm cube to enter the ADA comp, give it a name, as I would like to list it as substrate on the description.

Thanks.


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## dw1305

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Hi all,
Just to apologise to Luis really, I've been really busy but I'll try and post his DIY "Not Oliver Knott" substrate to him over the weekend.
cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Just to apologise to Luis really, I've been really busy but I'll try and post his DIY "Not Oliver Knott" substrate to him over the weekend.
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrell, no issue, it is worth the wait...


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## flygja

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

I hear rumours that ADA's Aquasoil production facility is just around the corner


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## dw1305

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Hi all,
Another apology really, but I have eventually posted the calcined soil to Luis, and it should be with him today or tomorrow.
cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Fantastic Darrel,

I will setup a old tank I have at home to take this soil, will place there the 100 odd Staurogyne's that Tom Barr is sending me. 

Will be really good to see how the plants take to your soil, however will top it up with sand, so avoid cloudiness. 

As Staurogyne grows with medium light, a 11W arc pod should be enough for a 20L.


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## FishBeast

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*



			
				flygja said:
			
		

> I hear rumours that ADA's Aquasoil production facility is just around the corner



If so than with a little luck we could expect a price drop without the middle man.... I wouldn't hold my breath though


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## flygja

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*



			
				FishBeast said:
			
		

> If so than with a little luck we could expect a price drop without the middle man.... I wouldn't hold my breath though



I'll put down 5 bucks - your face will turn blue before there's a price drop


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Another apology really, but I have eventually posted the calcined soil to Luis, and it should be with him today or tomorrow.
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel,

I got the soil, and I am very happy with it. 

I placed it on a glass with some water, and it does not turn to mud, it has a mixture of grain size, which is great for plants to take hold on. 

How much would you charge for a 10kg bag of this? I have been using Tropica Aquacare, but this substrate seems better for the sort of plants I keep, such as lilaeopsis brasiliensis and hairgrass carpet mix.

I am sure that my amazon's would take good hold of this, will try on two Rubin plantlets I got.

Many thanks once again.


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## dw1305

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Hi all,
Hi Luis, good it's arrived (I was a bit worried as I posted it first class last Monday, 17th May, and it hadn't arrived yesterday). About a kilo posted first class was Â£4.50, (and Â£4.12 as a parcel), so you would need a carrier for larger amounts. 

I'm not sure about the cost of firing, I only ever get little amounts (because it is out of the small furnace in the soil lab.), and it builds up over time. A clay source would be needed as well, all though I'm pretty sure you could use a "potters clay" base and a "special" additive, crushed pumice would be cheap or bentonite/montmorillonite clay. Prices here: 
http://www.scarvapottery.com/opencontent/default.asp?itemid=222&section=PRODUCTS
it is pretty cheap -TC10 - Â£25.50 for 100kg.

and Bentonite http://www.webpetstore.co.uk/products-page/sodium-bentonite-cat-litter/

I think to go into small scale production I'd probably have to find a potter and fire a large amount in their furnace (and at a fairly low temperature _c._ 500oC). It would need pelleting as well. A school art department might be a possibility for somewhere with a furnace. 

There is also packaging (not sure about a picture of Luis with cheesy grin and his thumbs up? or possibly an official UKAPS product in a tasteful bag? we will have to see how testing goes)

I'll try and get an approximate cost. 

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Try to get some pricing..  

I will see how much a furnace costs, 500C is not a lot of heat, some ovens do that (I think!), so there maybe a possibility.

The result is very good, and what you sent me will be used on 20cm cube, got enough cuttings to try out on this new substrate.

There may be a business here..


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## ghostsword

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Someone I know has a kiln, his mother makes pottery. 

Now, should we add nutrients to the soil when is it being baked, such as trace mix?

Would 500C change the chemical components of the mix? It shouldn't, as the soil around volcanoes is pretty fertile, and they get hotter than 500C..  

I will actually try to make some substrate, probably make a mix of clay, cat litter and bat guano.


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## nayr88

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

im liking where this is heading


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## dw1305

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*

Hi all,
I worked on the theory that the soils should contain trace elements, but you definitely can mix them in to oven baked material. I may still have about 500g of "micro-nutrient fritted trace elements" somewhere. This is powdered glass where the trace elements have been added to the glass as it cools, but is still molten. <http://www.frit.co.uk/eng/editorials.asp?pcat=2&c=17>. 

Wessex Water calcine dried sewage sludge at about 500oC and used to sell it as fertiliser - "Biogran", so it must retain some nutrients. I'll need to look into this, it may be the secret ingredient we need to mix with the terracotta clay.  I saw the plant at Avonmouth and I'm pretty sure it was very hard, black shiny pellets. http://www.50connect.co.uk/home_and...herb_and_veg_gardens_archives/biogran_natural

However I like the sound of dried Bat Guano, we could intimate it is the secret of success for a "legendary Japanese/Dutch/German Aquascaper", no names mentioned.

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

Fantastic.. we will get there, and maybe achieve the perfect soil, without the cheesy grins..  

Bat guano is currently being used on hydroponics, so maybe sprinkle some as the soil hardens would work.

It is quite cool that someone is using cooked sewage as fertilizer, it does make sense.


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## a1Matt

*Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> There is also packaging (not sure about a picture of Luis with cheesy grin and his thumbs up? or possibly an official UKAPS product in a tasteful bag? we will have to see how testing goes)



Or a picture of Luis scratching his head (now where have I seen that before   ).

Joking apart, hats off to you Darrel I'm impressed


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## nayr88

Haha,

Itd have to come with a free sample of riccia too


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## plantbrain

Most clay soils are fairly similar to ADA. The Delta clay in CA is almost exactly the same, but ADA's is enriched with NH4 whereas many clays tend to be lower in N.

Cooking it at higher temp is not required, fine if you want semi inert stuff I suppose, but semi soft clay is ideal, ADA's product is not cooked, it's dried a little to remove some of the moisture, then rolled to get the grain sizing.

If you want to oxidize, you can also boil and that will not cook the clay into hard material.
Also, simply screening it with a hose and water and letting it sit for awhile will oxidize most of the strongly reduced compounds. Then add to the tank's base layer and/or add osmocoat etc.

The rice farmers here get the highest yields in the world, they add only NH3 to the soil and then flood immediately after(kills the weeds this way without herbicides). Most of the old wetlands in CA are now rice paddies. I guess it's sort of okay since the paddies function a little like the old wetlands for birds, plenty of left over rice to eat and it's better than draining the land and farming row crops, or putting in yet another group of track homes in the flood zones  

The rice farmers really do not add much else fertilizer wise here though.
Not much need.

You want to retain some organic matter, about 5-10%, so cooking it completely might be fine if you like flourite, but you will get better growth with much less heat/boiling or natural processes. 

I could easily give you 1 or 2 tonnes, and a few truck loads of manzy wood to boot.
Few plant hobbyists use the local stuff here though.  

Guess if it's from far off lands and packed in a special flashy bag, its *got to be better*
I know there's some decent natural soils there in the UK that should work just fine.




Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ghostsword

Thanks Tom,

Great insight into this thread. 

So basically I can get good soil, give it a wash, add trace to it and NH4, then bake it on the oven for a couple of hours to dry out? 

I will try it this weekend, and see how it goes. No need to truck soil from god knows where if I can make my own at home!

Exciting stuff..


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## George Farmer

I can just imagine my wife's reaction as I bring in mud from the garden and put it into the oven.

Seriously though, won't you need to test the soil first?  Some soils are high in lime that may play havoc with your water chemistry.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I've got economy "clumping cat litter" in one of the tanks at the moment, which looks to be 100% "Fullers Earth". 
It was Â£6 for 20 litres, and is capped with play sand. The only problem is that it tends to end up in the water column, it isn't usually obviously cloudy, but the sponge on the filter in-take rapidly clogs up. 

The stuff from the soil lab Luis had has had all the organic matter burnt out of it (it comes from the samples for measuring %OM), and any iron had been oxidised to Fe2O3 (the samples are brick red). It looks very like "Seramis", although in some cases as fist size lumps rather than small particles. The 2mm sieved stuff (prior to calcining) is almost identical to Seramis. 

I'm going to try and get some local Gault clay (it was dug for brick making), with 10% added organic matter, added "Growmore" and the trace elements "frits" (from earlier in the post) and try calcining it at 500oC in the furnace, and also drying it at 100oC in the drying oven and see what happens.

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I've got economy "clumping cat litter" in one of the tanks at the moment, which looks to be 100% "Fullers Earth".
> It was Â£6 for 20 litres, and is capped with play sand. The only problem is that it tends to end up in the water column, it isn't usually obviously cloudy, but the sponge on the filter in-take rapidly clogs up.
> 
> The stuff from the soil lab Luis had has had all the organic matter burnt out of it (it comes from the samples for measuring %OM), and any iron had been oxidised to Fe2O3 (the samples are brick red). It looks very like "Seramis", although in some cases as fist size lumps rather than small particles. The 2mm sieved stuff (prior to calcining) is almost identical to Seramis.
> 
> I'm going to try and get some local Gault clay (it was dug for brick making), with 10% added organic matter, added "Growmore" and the trace elements "frits" (from earlier in the post) and try calcining it at 500oC in the furnace, and also drying it at 100oC in the drying oven and see what happens.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel,

Is this to make a flourite like product or?
I'm not clear on the goal for roasting it.

Cat litter was promoted on line in the USA mostly by Dan Quackenbush, now deceased, and nice old hillbilly that had good common sense. You might check the Aquatic plant digest for good tidbits. I used it with excellent results in the past. I agree, it can make mess when up rooting, a bit too cloudy. 

The heat will roast off the OM however.

Have you tried Worm castings???

http://www.aquahobby.com/tanks/e_tank0311b.php

They did not have any ferts or good sediments, so they made do with what they had.
Cheapo lights though, so cut those w/gal in 1/2.

We used WC with good results in the SF bay 2002-2004. 
I think by then ADA had become more available.

DIY mineralized soil is gained a new popularity recently, maybe the last 1-2 years here.
I think the nice clays from the delta are cheaper and better alternative. 
Main thing is sourcing a local source for soils and then be able to get it out to folks to try, or "sell kits" etc.
We can buy potting soils etc, then mix/post process etc.........but I think these tend to lack the nicer clay components, too much OM, thus the need to mineralize a lot.

Another idea is to do dilution mixing, basically instead of a 2-3 cm layer of rich clay/OM etc.........you take the same sand you will use as a cap, and mix 2/3 sand to this 1/3 soil layer, now making a 8-9cm deep layer more diluted. 
Then cap this with 3 cm of plain sand. This reduces the % OM/richness/density, just spreads it out and allows more O2 to attack it. But it also keeps it in place better, not burping to the top etc.......and replanting/uprooting is a bit easier.

You might also Photosynthesize this:
Partial cooking on the outer layers of the rolled grains, leaving the inside grain "rare". This will semi harden the outer part, but leave the nice juicy ferts inside for the roots to get at.

ADA does a similar thing I think.
Keeps the cloudiness down.

Another company adds activated carbon to the clay also, AQUA UP in Oz I think.........real nice stuff, better than ADA IMO.

Still, a small outfit in the UK(or like Mr Knott) could make a product and sell it with a little R&D.
An inherent problem with all sediments: weight, shipping, volume. You do not make much $ for "dirt". Low profit margin etc. Traces? Pretty good $$ there. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Tom wrote 





> Is this to make a flourite like product or?"


 Yes that was the idea. This thread came about because I had a lot of soil samples which had come from the small muffle furnace in the soil lab. This is set at 500oC so it produces an Akadama/Flourite/Seramis  type particle. It started as a bit of fun, but when I thought about it, and it occurred to me that  by changing the temperature of calcining and composition of the starting "clay" you probably could make a very good substrate. The thought was to produce an inert basic substrate with a reasonably high high CEC, and them possibly add an appropriate amount of Osmocote and organic matter to the finished product, I know from working with potting composts that it is easier to start with a low/no nutrient medium and add a known amount of nutrients, rather than starting with an unknown level and attempting to measure this. I'm not sure it would work out any cheaper than Akadama. 

I did have a bit of a go with "worm worked manure"  when I was still doing research into Spent Mushroom Compost (as  a potting medium for nursery stock), it was all right as an additive, but it is back to the same problems of most organic wastes, of not knowing quite what elements it contains, it has a high conductivity and it drastically reduces air filled porosity if you add very much of it. Worm worked Pig manure was phytotoxic due to the concentration of copper Cu in it (derived from the food supplements fed to the pigs). 

A local potato farmer has a worm business as well (fed on the potatoes that are unsuitable for sale) and he is bagging and selling the worm worked compost on a small scale.

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I can just imagine my wife's reaction as I bring in mud from the garden and put it into the oven.
> 
> Seriously though, won't you need to test the soil first?  Some soils are high in lime that may play havoc with your water chemistry.



Test the soil? Soil is soil right?  

What I intend to do is to mix following:
- B&Q Organic Living Peat Free Growing Bag @ Â£3 for 30kg
- Plain cat litter @ the Â£1 shop
- hair drying clay @ Â£10 for 12kg

Mix the above in equal parts then add trace mix, make a thin slab and put it on the oven for 2 hours, or for a large "order" leave it on the sun for a couple of days. 

Cat litter will allow the clay to be broken in pieces and be porous, and clay will prevent the cat litter floating on the tank. A quick was will remove the soil that has not bonded with the cat litter and clay.

I am sure that the plants on their natural habitat got none of the fancy substrate at hand to grow on. 

What I like about making my own substrate will be that I can actually match from where the plants come to what I plant them on.


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## George Farmer

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Test the soil? Soil is soil right?


That's a bit like saying water is water.  

Please feel free to ignore my advice and don't test it.  I hope it works well and you don't get huge ammonia spikes or pH fluctuations. 

Don't get me wrong.  I fully appreciate your enthuasism as a newcomer to the planted tank hobby, and I commend it, but sometimes it can prudent to listen to others who are trying to help and save you potential issues in the future.  Also consider that these posts may be read by other beginners who may follow your lead without knowing the potential consequences if things go wrong.



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> What I like about making my own substrate will be that I can actually match from where the plants come to what I plant them on.


I don't understand this statement.  Please elaborate.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I'd probably agree with George, on that it might be better to have a low lime starter clay. I'm not sure about the air drying clay either, I think a few people tried it for building "plec" caves and it soon disintegrated in the tank. 

I'd also have a look at the "B&Q Organic Living Peat Free Growing Bag", most of the cheap peat free composts have a lot of wood chips in them, if it is really woody I think I might go for a 100% Coir compost, it is not so much that the wood or bark is bad, it will just float. The other problem may be if the grow bag contains "composted green waste", it tends to oxidise away fairly quickly so you may have problems with both it raising the BOD and releasing a lot of soluble salts.     

What ratio of cat litter/clay/compost are you going to use Luis? and are you going to cap it with sand? 

cheers Darrel

ps just had a look a the worm casing fertilised tank that Tom posted the link to. looked very good.


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## ghostsword

George Farmer said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test the soil? Soil is soil right?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a bit like saying water is water.
> Please feel free to ignore my advice and don't test it.  I hope it works well and you don't get huge ammonia spikes or pH fluctuations.
Click to expand...


And when did water stopped being water? Will water stop being H2O because we add nutrients to it?  
I do understand the comment, and my reply is in jest, so no flaming please. 



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong.  I fully appreciate your enthuasism as a newcomer to the planted tank hobby, and I commend it, but sometimes it can prudent to listen to others who are trying to help and save you potential issues in the future.  Also consider that these posts may be read by other beginners who may follow your lead without knowing the potential consequences if things go wrong.



I am happy that you appreciate my enthusiasm as a newcomer, and I do agree that it is prudent to listen to others who are trying to help out, but you have to agree that there is a time when one needs to try new things and break away from the pack.

I am sure that when EI was first being used, there were people that would advise against it, even now there still are others that do not believe the benefits.

If a beginner does not understand that the posts on this thread are related to trial and error and some experimentation, go ahead and use garden soil on their tank and have some issues, should I not post here my experiments from start to finish? Or are we to only post successes and not failure? Should I pre empt my posts with a disclaimer?

For example, now I am growing Marsilea Hirsuta and Lileaopsis on wood. 



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> What I like about making my own substrate will be that I can actually match from where the plants come to what I plant them on.


I don't understand this statement.  Please elaborate.[/quote] [/quote]

Ok, plants have diferent needs, some need more clay, others need more soil, some even need some peat or more acidic soil. On a tank that is hard to provide, but on a pot that becomes easy. 
For example, from my experience, Amazon swords need heavy soils, I have even grown them on garden soil topped with gravel on my tank (and had no ammonia spike!). Wouldn't be great to have a specific soil for a specific plant?

Cryptocorynes, what soil do they like? Do they like peaty soils, do they like gravel, etc?  

Just because others have not tried something, or advise against it, we should stop trying for ourselves. Only then we will learn, by trial and error and observation.

I appreciate others experiences, I have learnt lots on this forum from others errors and successes, but I like to learn and I like to try new techniques and ideas, as I am sure that there are lots still to be learn on how to take care of plants.


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## ghostsword

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I'd probably agree with George, on that it might be better to have a low lime starter clay. I'm not sure about the air drying clay either, I think a few people tried it for building "plec" caves and it soon disintegrated in the tank.
> 
> I'd also have a look at the "B&Q Organic Living Peat Free Growing Bag", most of the cheap peat free composts have a lot of wood chips in them, if it is really woody I think I might go for a 100% Coir compost, it is not so much that the wood or bark is bad, it will just float.
> 
> What ratio of cat litter/clay/compost are you going to use Luis? and are you going to cap it with sand?
> 
> cheers Darrel
> 
> ps just had a look a the worm casing fertilised tank that Tom posted the link to. looked very good.



Thanks Darrel,

Good idea on the Coir, maybe I could replace the soil with coir. I would like to not just use clay. 

My reason for the cat litter would be to create some porous pieces, with the clay attached to it, something for the roots to take hold.

I am not sure about the ratio of clay to cat litter, I will have to try in small quantities. I could also replace the cat litter with clayballs common used on Hydrophonic setups, but they float, so hopefully by mixing with clay, then cooking it for a long period of time they would bond and stay down. Then I would just need to break it in pieces and grade it.

The worm casting fertilizer is good, and it works great for house plants, but I would need to test it on a tank with plants, ammonia can be an issue.

The soil will be capped with sand, or gravel, and as I use pots on my tank it would be easy to try different grades.

The soil you sent me is doing very good on a small tank, and it is keeping form. I got two pots with it, one has Rotalas and the other amazon plantlets. The amazon doubled in size in two weeks, and the rotalas are taking good hold. Was any iron content on that soil?


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> The soil you sent me is doing very good on a small tank, and it is keeping form. I got two pots with it, one has Rotalas and the other amazon plantlets. The amazon doubled in size in two weeks, and the rotalas are taking good hold. Was any iron content on that soil?"


 We don't test the soils for iron (total iron either in the plant or soil doesn't have much correlation with chlorosis caused iron deficiency), but the brick red (this is the oxidised iron) colour tells you that there was some. If you get yellow or white particles after calcining a clay there wasn't any iron present.

I would be tempted to try about 10% coir and somewhere in the region of 30% clay, 60% cat litter. The cat litter  is calcined "moler clay", so it should have many of the characteristics of "Hydroton" or "Hydroleca" (but it should sink). 

I don't think the proportion of clay & cat litter will be critical.

cheers Darrel


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## George Farmer

Luis,

I think there's some misunderstanding; there's certainly no intentional flaming.

I think the use of soil is potentially a great idea, which is why is split this thread, re-named it, and pinned it for others to benefit.

My suggestion was to merely test any soil prior to use, especially for lime.  

All the best with the experiments.  I look forward to following the results.


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## ghostsword

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Luis,
> 
> I think there's some misunderstanding; there's certainly no intentional flaming.



 No mate.. I know that you weren't flaming, it was just so when others would read my comment that water is still water they would not get the wrong idea. ... Hard to explain things on forums and emails..  

For the record, before you someone tries this at home, I am testing the soils on two very small tanks, they are under 10L. If you put garden soil on your tank, not only you risk a algae bloom, but you will also risk killing your fish and living things on it. Some soils have quite nasty things on them, such as traces of copper, pesticides and god knows what else.


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## ghostsword

dw1305 said:
			
		

> I would be tempted to try about 10% coir and somewhere in the region of 30% clay, 60% cat litter. The cat litter  is calcined "moler clay", so it should have many of the characteristics of "Hydroton" or "Hydroleca" (but it should sink).
> 
> I don't think the proportion of clay & cat litter will be critical.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel,

I will try your recipe and let you know how it goes. What I am after is indeed something similar to Hydroton, but something that sinks, and keeps its shape for a while. 

Should have all ingredients by end of week, will use a scale to measure the portions, so that if I find a suitable mix I can replicate it.


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## plantbrain

If you want some simpler methods to test various soils, a group of small pots are the best.

Pots 1-4, soil #1.......all have a few of the same species, pick a wimpy plant.........
Pots 5-10 have soil #2
Pots 11-15 have soil  # and so on........

You can evaluate some of the soil fair well with a sand cap, and also by doing frequent water changes to minimize the leaching into the water effect.

Measure the total increase in stem length and dry weight if you have a good accurate scale.
Be care to clip the roots and shoot and very gently wash and remove the soil before drying.

Give the test about 8 weeks.

Darrel(or anyone else with a pond access etc) should be able to do this easily in a pond.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ghostsword

An Article on Tom Barr's forum that can also assist on making a soil that will provide nutrients to the plants. 
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... best/page3

Some good ideas, for sure to try out.


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## ghostsword

Darrel's soil looks like this:





I am using it on a small project, emmersed L Aromatica on a 5L bottle:


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## ghostsword

With too many other projects the soil took a step back.. until now.

I purchased 25kg of clay, so now I got enough clay to make wabi balls, plant pots and some soil.

The plan is to mix clay with some hydrocoton, and add some iron fillings to it, then cook it on a kiln to 1000C, break it in to small pieces and use it.

Would I be able to add nutrients to the clay, would it survive the high temps? At least trace I would like to add.


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## TYB

Hey Darell, Iâ€™m new to this soil thread but I find it fascinating. You wrote that depending on the iron content there will be different colour to the soil, any idea how to get it to turn black? Keep it up with the experiments!

TYB


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> You wrote that depending on the iron content there will be different colour to the soil, any idea how to get it to turn black?


 The red colour is the ferric oxides, iron is a constituent of most clays, so the calcined soils are usually red. There may be clays that have a lot of manganese in them, as well as iron, and these would produce a clay pellet that is naturally black (manganese di-oxide is black). I think if you fire "Gault" clays at high temperature they produce black bricks, so higher temperatures may also produce a darker soil grain. 

You may be able to get additives for pottery clay that turn it black, I've just Googled this, and there are and it is manganese di-oxide they use. 

If you calcine clay at lower temperatures then a carbon compound would do as an additive, either "carbon black" or  graphite powder, although these will burn out as the temperature increases.

cheers Darrel


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## sanj

So Darrel when are you starting up your own Aquarium substrate business? The market could probably do with a little competition.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> So Darrel when are you starting up your own Aquarium substrate business? The market could probably do with a little competition.


 I don't think I will be, although I do think there could be an opening. Entirely hypothetically I would buy a bulk load of moler clay granules, and then re-package them in smaller visually attractive bags with a celebrity endorsement.

cheers Darrel


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## nayr88

Hello Darrel, that's a shame would of been cool to have someone from the forum do something like that. Is that all the fancy substrates are? Moler clay? How do they get the nutrients in? Or does it have enough in already.

Maybe one day therell be a ukaps line of basic products aye


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Is that all the fancy substrates are? Moler clay? How do they get the nutrients in? Or does it have enough in already.


 I think nearly all the complete substrates are calcined clays, the amount of nutrients they contain would depend upon the clay (some would be potassium rich) and how hot the calcining temperature was. Very hot temperatures will produce a harder fired product, and the heat of firing would also burn out most nutrients and any organic matter. 

In some ways the initial nutrient content is a bit of a red herring, what is more important is the Cation and Anion Exchange Capacity of the clays (CEC and AEC), the capacity to retain and exchange positively (Ca++, K+) and negatively charged (NO3-, PO4-) ions.

Details here: <http://www2.nau.edu/~doetqp-p/courses/env320/lec13/Lec13.html>.

Moler clay is a calcined "diatomaceous earth" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth>. Which means that it has both a very complex internal structure, and a reasonable CEC of about 50 meq/100g (http://www.jbhs.ccs.k12.nc.us/Facul...l Notes For APES/cation exchange capacity.pdf). 

I also think that this capacity to hold onto compounds is the reason it is so difficult to remove the odour from moler clay based cat litter.

If you wanted a "complete nutrient rich substrate", you could soak the calcined media in a fertiliser solution before you sold it, but this would be a bit hit and miss. Better would be to have a small pack of Osmocote (or other "controlled release fertiliser" <http://www.springerlink.com/content/u702t10765qp7164/>) and possibly some organic matter (peat or leaf mould) included in separate packs with-in the bag. You would sprinkle these on before use (a bit like the little blue bag of salt in an old packet of crisps). 

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain

The Rice paddy soils and the delta soils in CA, USA and ADA AS 1 are very similar.
ADA As has NH4 added, but otherwise, they are very similar in all ways.


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## plantbrain

Pot experiments work pretty good also BTW:














All non CO2, sunlight with shade cloth, continuous flow through water supply so no water column ferts influence the growth. The tap used is dechlorinated prior and has some NO3 and a few other ferts, but not a lot.

You place different species in different pots and then gauge growth.
You can measure roots vs shoots, root shoot ratios etc, stem length, leaf no# etc.

Ideally, you'd allow the test to run 1 full year or season, not just 4 weeks.
It takes about 8-10 weeks for anaerobic hydric soil to settle down to a good consistent Redox value, so longer than 8 weeks is wise for growth test since everything is controlled via the Redox in soils and most folks keep planted tanks with soil longer than 10 weeks.


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## Morgan Freeman

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> 
> So Darrel when are you starting up your own Aquarium substrate business? The market could probably do with a little competition.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I will be, although I do think there could be an opening. Entirely hypothetically I would buy a bulk load of moler clay granules, and then re-package them in smaller visually attractive bags with a celebrity endorsement.
> 
> cheers Darrel
Click to expand...


You can use my name.

Thanks.


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## niru

I have seen farmers burning their lands after a harvest and a few rains.. Does burning/roasting soils give same effect like baking it? Or why they do it? And would it be a good idea for aquarium substrates?

A question by a dummy: would pumping some H2O2 for O-radicals help fasten the oxygenation/combustion/fixing of nutrients? Can one do this O-firing, then roast the soil/clay in an open space (so no wife oven-smell issues) to achieve this?

-niru


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## dw1305

Hi all,
"Morgan Freeman" definitely sounds like a celebrity endorsement, Paul Newman did it with sauces and George Foreman with grills, so why not?

I haven't had a look for a while, but a tonne of loose Moler Clay was about £400. I'd reckon 1 litre weighs about 750g, so that would be about 1300 litres, so £0.35 a litre for raw material, plus the cost of packaging and Morgan's cut for his celebrity endorsement. I'm not sure it is a huge money spinner, might be cheaper to buy the cat litter.

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain

There is not much money in sediments, ADA really does not profit much from them at the end of the day, hence miracle cures in little bottles. Best $ is from growing the plants and selling those and then maintenance contracts.
Driftwood is okay, but you need to the fortitude and the location to get it.

None of it is easy work really.

With sediments, you have to sell a lot of it to make hardly anything.

I think Darrel would make more working at a pizza shack for his time  
Small DIY kits sold to folks is not a bad idea if you already are doing it.

Kitty litter threads go back on the APD to the mid 1990's, Dan Quackenbush(now decreased) was one of those kitty litter proponents, I tried it, worked well.

I bet I could make a real nice tank with the method today.

But........I likely will not anytime in the next 1-2 years.

But it could be done at the low tech or the high tech level.

Burning the chaff is common practice, unfortunately it adds a lot of CO2 and reduces air quality a GREAT deal. It is much wiser and maintains your soil and enahnced bacterial cycling and other fauna in soil if the chaff is reused and plowed back into the soil as "green manure". Rice farmers flood their fields in the off season to prevent soil loss and oxidation. Burning releases some of K+ and other elements, hence rapid regrowth after a fire, but so does allowing the bacteria to do this and sequesters more Carbon this way. 

The farmer would be wiser to plow it back under.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Burning the chaff is common practice, unfortunately it adds a lot of CO2 and reduces air quality a GREAT deal. It is much wiser and maintains your soil and enahnced bacterial cycling and other fauna in soil if the chaff is reused and plowed back into the soil as "green manure".


 They used to do it in the UK, when straw wasn't worth much, most of the farmers used to burn the straw and stubble and we used to have some very big fires. 

Now they have to chop the straw and re-incorporate it if they aren't baling it and they aren't allowed to burn the stubble.
Details here: <http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/netregs/businesses/agriculture/93431.aspx>

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain

Good to know they are doing the right way.....big issue here in CA. 

Air quality gets bad due to smog and the mountains catching it along with a high pressure system which is common in the summer + nature fire ecology.


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## kirk

just a thought if you dont mind me adding to this. you can buy boily and pellent rolling tables and sausage guns to make pellets fast. basically make mix of soil fert put in gun squeeze into sausages onto table then roll. rolling tables are cheap and come in different sizes. if you know a carp fisherman he may lend you one.


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## Pinkmummy79

dw1305 said:


> *Re: How its made - Oliver Knott's NatureSoil*
> 
> Wessex Water calcine dried sewage sludge at about 500oC and used to sell it as fertiliser - "Biogran", so it must retain some nutrients. I'll need to look into this, it may be the secret ingredient we need to mix with the terracotta clay. I saw the plant at Avonmouth and I'm pretty sure it was very hard, black shiny pellets.
> 
> Aha! so that's what the smell is whenever I drive past on the M5, always thought it was an open sewer


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## BigDaddy

kirk said:


> just a thought if you dont mind me adding to this. you can buy boily and pellent rolling tables and sausage guns to make pellets fast. basically make mix of soil fert put in gun squeeze into sausages onto table then roll. rolling tables are cheap and come in different sizes. if you know a carp fisherman he may lend you one.


Got this equipment myself and to achieve pellets or 'dumbells' as we'd call them use a diameter of 2-4mm smaller then your tables diameter as the same size would produce round balls or 'boilies'


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## rebel

Has anyone tried to bake soil in the oven? If so, a word of warning....it can smell a little.


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## Edvet




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## rebel

Morgan Freeman said:


> You can use my name.
> 
> Thanks.


Not anymore friend. Not anymore.


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## castle

I've been messing with soils from my garden, i live in a high clay and sand area; just about got a mix now that doesn't stir up mud too easily. Might be using it in my new tank; but will do a demo first in a 30cm cube.


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## rebel

castle said:


> I've been messing with soils from my garden


Tell us more my man! I live in high clay country. I can almost have a pond without a liner.  Haven't bothered with baking clay in my oven I need to find someone with a pizza oven. They can get up to 800C.


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## zozo

rebel said:


> Tell us more my man! I live in high clay country. I can almost have a pond without a liner.  Haven't bothered with baking clay in my oven I need to find someone with a pizza oven. They can get up to 800C.



You can make one yourself from the clay you dig up...  And it's actually easypeasy. 

Short nutshell tut.

Gather wine bottles, make a stand, from whatever material. Create a round platform, put a small wall 2 or 3 bricks high around it. Lay the empty glass (Wine) bottles (cap removed) in the round space you created in between the brick wall as much as you can. Then fill and cover with sand, perlite or terracota clay balls to make a flat bottom. Cover the sand again with a fire-resistant brick, that's the oven floor. The bottles below it, create insulation, there is no better and cheaper insulation than still standing air.

Now the platform (oven floor) is ready, then create an oven door (entrance) create an arch with fire-resistant brick and cement. Make sure its big enough for you to get in laying n your back. When this is done close it with some wood, then take wet sand and create a half a globe on top like a sandcastle.

Make sure to make the globe 10 inches smaller all around the floor. Cover the globe sandcastle with wet newspaper.

Now its time to dig up clay or loam, make it wet enough so you can mould consistent 8 inches loam balls. And start stacking these loam balls tight against the sand globe like building an Eskimo Iglo. Once reaching the top, use a terracotta pot or tube above the door as a chimney. Then start plastering the globe with wet loam mixed with hay as extra insulation and strength, 2 inches thick.

Leave it all to dry for a few days, then dig out the sand and you have a loam Eskimo Iglo... Then fire it up and slowly raise the temperature to the max. You will bake the oven from the inside out. After it baked for a day, it will be hardened enough to use as an oven. Only thing, if it ever rains in your region cover it with a roof.

Now you have a Loam oven, for pizza, bread, whatever you like to bake.. For a minimum of cost and a few days elbow grease.  It's an ancient proven concept used since far before the middle ages.

You can even paint it if you want to go fancy on it. 

Make sure you regularly inspect the inside for cracks, if you see any, dig up some loam and repair it. 

Here is a dutch foto album of such a build, the pictures speak for them selfs, with the above.
https://www.natuurstoffen.nl/artikelen/fotoverslag-pizza-oven-bouwen/


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## castle

rebel said:


> Tell us more my man! I live in high clay country. I can almost have a pond without a liner.  Haven't bothered with baking clay in my oven I need to find someone with a pizza oven. They can get up to 800C.




This kind of stopped when I had to move, but I was doing the following:

20% dry soil which came from under a set of conifers, I then took 50% of a clay soil mix, this was about 2 feet under my top soil, and then 25% sand. I added 5% gravel too. 

This was intended to be uncapped. I have a jar with it, which I can turn upside down, and the soil won't budge (S.Subulata loves it). However it's not suitable really, too much nutrients enter the water column.


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## rebel

Yes DIY aquasoil is much harder than it looks. I've been ok with paying up for it although not that thrilled when it eventually breaks down. It's best for people who break down their tanks every 2 years for a complete rescape; which I think is not a bad idea anyways.


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