# High amount of silicate in tap water



## bjorn (18 Oct 2011)

I just invested in a test kit for SiO2 thinking I had a problem with silicates leaking from my sand or something else in my tank. However I tested my tap water and it's off the scale, SiO2 mg/l (ppm) is 6.0+

I know, test kits are inaccurate at best but such a high reading isn't easily misinterpreted. 

Would this high amount be my problem with continuous brown diatoms in a mature tank?

How do I solve it, is there anything that can remove Silicate from water?


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## ceg4048 (18 Oct 2011)

Errr....you've really fallen off the wagon if you think sillicates have anything to do with diatomic algal blooms. I don't know how much money you spent on that absurd test kit but whatever you spent was completely wasted. Diatomic algal blooms are strictly a result of excessive lighting.

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (18 Oct 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Errr....you've really fallen off the wagon if you think sillicates have anything to do with diatomic algal blooms. I don't know how much money you spent on that absurd test kit but whatever you spent was completely wasted. Diatomic algal blooms are strictly a result of excessive lighting.
> 
> Cheers,



Yes indeedi  
hoggie


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## Joecoral (18 Oct 2011)

Did anyone else hear that loud boom? I think it was ceg dropping a knowledge bomb....


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## bjorn (18 Oct 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Errr....you've really fallen off the wagon if you think sillicates have anything to do with diatomic algal blooms. I don't know how much money you spent on that absurd test kit but whatever you spent was completely wasted. Diatomic algal blooms are strictly a result of excessive lighting.
> 
> Cheers,




Well with all due respect, almost every other reference site about algae tells people that high silicates + phosphates are often the cause of Diatoms. I understand now that it's incorrect but by reading up on other sites it's to believe otherwise. A majority of them even says that stronger light can help make it go away:

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/algae.htm
http://www.aquariumslife.com/headline/b ... e-control/

And many others..


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## Aquadream (18 Oct 2011)

High silicates are always the main reason for diatom blooms. The silicates are part of the diatom biological structure.
High light is not reason for diatom blooms, just the opposite. Higher light levels are often used to fight against diatoms.
The SiO2 tests kit is definitely not a waste of money. EI is a good method, but going extreme on EI without ever taking any measurements is shear nonsense and beginners guess work. 
Regardless of how inaccurate tests kits may be they still present method of parameter control that is closer to science than any other that does not involve any kind of measurements.
I guess you have used JBL SiO2 tests. If that is the one we are talking about it is accurate enough to indicate disasters.
You can use either RO water to reduce the SiO2 or SiO2 absorbing resign that it is sold by JBL. It works quite well.


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## Matt Warner (18 Oct 2011)

I always thought that high silicates caused diatoms too, and which is why it is so common in new setups as the silicone used in aquariums leaches out silicates. I have also heard that more light helps get rid of them.


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## bjorn (19 Oct 2011)

Aquadream said:
			
		

> High silicates are always the main reason for diatom blooms. The silicates are part of the diatom biological structure.
> High light is not reason for diatom blooms, just the opposite. Higher light levels are often used to fight against diatoms.
> The SiO2 tests kit is definitely not a waste of money. EI is a good method, but going extreme on EI without ever taking any measurements is shear nonsense and beginners guess work.
> Regardless of how inaccurate tests kits may be they still present method of parameter control that is closer to science than any other that does not involve any kind of measurements.
> ...



It is the JBL test kit. The readings are so high that there is no mistaking it. 

I'm utterly confused now though about what my real problem is. Maybe a bit of everything rather than just the silicates.

Problem is, I tested diluting my tap water with 50% RO.. made no difference in the test reading. Still over 6.0ppm. The only way to really reduce it would be to use nearly 100% RO water which would be not only a lot of work but also require me to start using buffers etc.

I do have something called JBL SilicatEx but not used it yet and I've read it's quite messy.


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## bjorn (19 Oct 2011)

I've also looked at Seachem Phos Guard, I prefer their products over JBL and it's less messy. It does remove both Phosphate and Silicates, or so it says. The problem is plants needs Phospates too, right? (I'm dosing EI).


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## clonitza (19 Oct 2011)

Lower the PAR to 30-40 from 80-90, dose EI and have a little patience.

Mike


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## dw1305 (19 Oct 2011)

Hi all,
Honestly it doesn't matter whether you have high levels of silica in your water or not, it really is totally irrelevant. I can quickly show why this is true, cat litter is being used successfully by lots of people, it is made from "Moler clay", moler clay is principally composed of "diatomite", and diatomite is the fossil remains of millions of Diatoms. Then there is sand, it is mainly comprised of quartz, and quartz is silicon dioxide. 

The frustules of Diatoms are made from silica, and after you have a Diatom bloom in the ocean, these frustules sink, and the area is locally depleted of silica. This is one of the reasons why zones of up-welling have higher productivity in the oceans, silica is constantly being brought up from the deep ocean. This is also totally irrelevant to us, we are talking about trace levels of silica, your tank will always have enough silica to support diatom growth.

Again the same applies to macro-nutrients, algal blooms in fresh water are often associated with high levels of macro-nutrients, including phosphorus (from optical brighteners in detergents, sewage and the phosphate added to water supplies to control heavy metal levels). However the levels of phosphorus in the tank are likely to always be high enough to support algal growth. 

Whether or not you think there is any point in restricting the nutrients in your tank water depends upon your point of view, and what your long term aims are. I think it would be fair to say that I do have some difference in opinion from some of my colleagues, but rather than going through the whole discussion again I'd suggest reading this post: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8834>.

cheers Darrel


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## Aquadream (19 Oct 2011)

Lowering the light without reducing the SiO2 in your aquarium first will lead to more diatoms.
Try to measure diluted with RO water sample of your aquarium water and your tap water to establish where the problem comes from. Then we could come up with some solution of the problem.
If both samples are with the same amount of SiO2 then you will have to dilute the tap water for every water change or use SiO2 removers on a permanent basis.
If your aquarium water turns up with the higher amounts of SiO2 then you will have to establish the source of SiO2 in the aquarium. That in most cases will be the gravel and/decorative materials - rocks, artificial elements etc.


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## ceg4048 (19 Oct 2011)

bjorn said:
			
		

> Well with all due respect, almost every other reference site about algae tells people that high silicates + phosphates are often the cause of Diatoms. I understand now that it's incorrect but by reading up on other sites it's to believe otherwise. A majority of them even says that stronger light can help make it go away:
> 
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
> http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/algae.htm
> ...


Yes, but this is like saying "Might Makes Right." It doesn't matter how many people say something if that something is wrong. If silicate content of the water were a factor in diatomic blooms then all tanks would have diatoms all the time. In fact, one would be able to induce a diatom bloom merely by adding sand or clay products to the tank. in fact, Silicon Dioxide is not the form that diatomic algae use to build their frustules. The form is Silicic Acid, and the most abundant form is orthosilicic acid (H4SiO4). The algae process this form biogenically to manufacture SiO2. So as Darrel says, the SiO2 content of the water is totally irrelevant. 

if you were to study the content of BGA, you would find a high content of Nitrogen in their Chlorophyll  cells. Does this automatically mean that high levels of Nitrogen such as found in Nitrate would trigger a BGA bloom? Of course not. We know that one way of fighting BGA is in fact to increase the level of Nitrates. So just because you find a form of an element in the cell structure of an algae, it does not mean that some other form of that element within the water column is a factor in the triggering of the bloom.

Anyone can regurgitate myths and legends found in The Matrix, and in so doing populate the world with multiple copies of lies and misinformation. That's easy. What's more difficult is to prove or to disprove some theory of causality. We know that excessive light is a prime factor in the triggering of algal blooms in general. We can show this to be true. We also have enough evidence that Diatoms and GDA are cyclic forms and that they generally appear at tank startup which is a vulnerable time for the tank due to low bacterial populations and dynamic chemical states. These forms normally go away without ever returning. Excessive lighting, combined with poor flow and distribution causes problems which algal spores sense and which then trigger the blooms. If you have an established tank in which a diatomic bloom erupts then you had better start looking at your procedures in it's entirety, such as trimming, flow distribution, dosing, water change/cleaning, CO2 and lighting. Poor husbandry, dirty tanks and malnutrition exacerbated by high lighting are the factors that trigger all algal blooms. Chasing silicate content and trying to lower nutrients only causes more damage.

Instead of spending more money on test kits or nutrient absorbers, or RO, try the simple and cheap approach of reducing your lighting intensity, and of improving your plant husbandry techniques. That will serve you better in the long run.

Cheers,


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## bjorn (19 Oct 2011)

Right.. so I've actually redone the entire tank yesterday and today. Took everything. Cleaned off stones, plants etc. Got it all setup again but still using mature old filter. 

I've lowered lights to PAR 40 which is at 40% power on the LEDs. (I would have done lower but the tank goes quite dull.

I'll continue to dose EI and not use Phosphate remover.

Co2 at 30+ppm (lime green)


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## mdhardy01 (19 Oct 2011)

Believe In the ceg not the matrix



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bjorn (23 Oct 2011)

After redoing the entire tank, scrubbing everything, lowering lights etc.. Now on day 4 on this fresh setup I've got brown diatoms on the glass which I've cleaned off. 

There is also some surface film as I mentioned in this thread

Since restarting this new system using mature filter there has been no Ammonia. 

Tank: 180l
Water Volume: 150l
CO2: Green (going on lime green, using CO2 inline reactor)
Temperature: 26c
Light: 40PAR (3x GroBeam 1000 ND LED's at 40% power)
Filter: Fluval G6 (2460 lph)
PH: 6.00
Substrate: ADA Amazonia (new)

Fertilizers:
15ml Aqua Nourish+ / day (macro)
10ml Aqua Nourish / day (micro)
5 drops of ADA ECA


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## Neil6 (12 Dec 2020)

bjorn said:


> After redoing the entire tank, scrubbing everything, lowering lights etc.. Now on day 4 on this fresh setup I've got brown diatoms on the glass which I've cleaned off.
> 
> There is also some surface film as I mentioned in this thread
> 
> ...


I have the same issues. Brown slime algae. I have very high GH & KH  and was also was wondering about high silicate levels and thinking of buying a test kit. Please let us know how you got on.


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## dw1305 (13 Dec 2020)

Hi all,
Welcome, you aren't alone.  I think we have probably all had diatoms, often during tank establishment. This possibly isn't going to help at the moment as advice, but if you wait a couple of months they are likely to disappear of their own accord.  

Have a look through the rest of <"this thread">.  We don't know what causes any of the different types of algae, but diatoms are pretty much universal in freshwater and <"are incredibly efficient at extracting silicon from the water"> and I'm pretty sure there will always be <"enough orthosilicic acid"> in your water to support diatom growth.  


Neil6 said:


> and thinking of buying a test kit


I'm <"not a great fan of test kits">, they may work, they may not, but I'm personally convinced that the main aim of the companies that supply them is to separate you from your money, and <"ideally keep on doing it">, and they aren't too scrupulous <"about their advertising claims">.   

Have a look at <"Bedside Aquarium"> (with traditional apologies to @Miss-Pepper) as a general over-view of what's important.


Neil6 said:


> I have very high GH & KH and was also was wondering about high silicate levels


Were do you live in the UK? If you live in the SE.  or E. of the England you are likely to have <"hard water, high in nitrates and phosphates">.  

cheers Darrel


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## Neil6 (29 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Welcome, you aren't alone.  I think we have probably all had diatoms, often during tank establishment. This possibly isn't going to help at the moment as advice, but if you wait a couple of months they are likely to disappear of their own accord.
> 
> Have a look through the rest of <"this thread">.  We don't know what causes any of the different types of algae, but diatoms are pretty much universal in freshwater and <"are incredibly efficient at extracting silicon from the water"> and I'm pretty sure there will always be <"enough orthosilicic acid"> in your water to support diatom growth.
> ...





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Welcome, you aren't alone.  I think we have probably all had diatoms, often during tank establishment. This possibly isn't going to help at the moment as advice, but if you wait a couple of months they are likely to disappear of their own accord.
> 
> Have a look through the rest of <"this thread">.  We don't know what causes any of the different types of algae, but diatoms are pretty much universal in freshwater and <"are incredibly efficient at extracting silicon from the water"> and I'm pretty sure there will always be <"enough orthosilicic acid"> in your water to support diatom growth.
> ...


Yes I do live in an area of very hard water. I've done a 50% water change now with RO water which has helped with this and reducing pH. Also measured very high phosphate levels which could of contributed to the diatom bloom? I've purchased seachem phos-guard which seems to be working after a few days. 
How much TNC should I be dosing in a 200lr tank as looks like a magnesium/ iron deficiency?


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## dw1305 (29 Dec 2020)

Hi all, 


Neil6 said:


> I've purchased seachem phos-guard which seems to be working after a few days.


Phosphorus (orthophosphate, the PO4--- ion) is <"easy to remove from solution">, because most phosphorus compounds <"are insoluble">.


Neil6 said:


> Also measured very high phosphate levels which could of contributed to the diatom bloom?


Probably not, but there is no real way of knowing, companies are <"pretty unscrupulous about what they say in their advertising material">. Phosphorus (P) is a nutrient that <"plants need in large amounts">, so if you remove all of it from solution then you won't get any plant growth.


Neil6 said:


> How much TNC should I be dosing in a 200lr tank as looks like a magnesium/ iron deficiency?


I'd probably add <"Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O)> separately, along with an iron chelate more suitable for harder water <"like FeEDDHA">. If you did want to add "TNC Complete" 125mL in 200 litres would add 5ppm Mg and 0.5 ppm Fe.

@Zeus. will be able to tell you the relative costs <"of the different options">.

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (29 Dec 2020)

Although TNC is one of the better AIO ferts for value for money, if you after increasing your Mg and Fe going down the double triple dosing route TNC soon becomes costly for the few extra nutrients plus it will not address the Fe EDDHA either. 

For the Mg to hit 5ppm a week for 200l




So just dry dose two teaspoons of Epsom salts (MgSO4.7H2O) after WC and that will yield the extra 5ppm Mg

For the Fe EDDHA I would keep it simple, buy 10-50grams, add it to 1litre of water and just dose your tank a few drops every day, when the water turns the slightest pink you have added enough as the the Fe EDDHA will be in excess. Your first dose you might wont to add it in 1.0ml doses till you see the slightest change in colour, if your plants use up the Fe EDDHA the colour change will go. I use it with the slightest colour change of water, which is best done looking down the length of the tank.


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## Neil6 (29 Dec 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Phosphorus (orthophosphate, the PO4--- ion) is <"easy to remove from solution">, because most phosphorus compounds <"are insoluble">.
> 
> ...


Sorry, 125ml of TNC in 200lrs weekly? Plus the 5ppm Mg and 0.5 ppm Fe?


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## dw1305 (30 Dec 2020)

Hi all,


Neil6 said:


> 125ml of TNC in 200lrs weekly? Plus the 5ppm Mg and 0.5 ppm Fe?





Zeus. said:


> So just dry dose two teaspoons of Epsom salts (MgSO4.7H2O) after WC and that will yield the extra 5ppm Mg
> 
> For the Fe EDDHA I would keep it simple, buy 10-50grams, add it to 1litre of water and just dose your tank a few drops every day, when the water turns the slightest pink you have added enough as the the Fe EDDHA will be in excess. Your first dose you might wont to add it in 1.0ml doses till you see the slightest change in colour, if your plants use up the Fe EDDHA the colour change will go. I use it with the slightest colour change of water, which is best done looking down the length of the tank.


I'd just follow the dosing regime @Zeus. has provided for you, dose TNC at the recommended rate (1 mL per 10 litre per week) and add the extra Epsom Salts and FeEDDHA. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (30 Dec 2020)

I just did the maths and to yield 5ppm Mg weekly from TNC you would need to dose x63 the standard recommend dose

The IFC calculator will only allow multiple of x15 'normaly'





So definitely a *NO NO*


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## Neil6 (12 Jan 2021)

Zeus. said:


> View attachment 159589
> 
> Although TNC is one of the better AIO ferts for value for money, if you after increasing your Mg and Fe going down the double triple dosing route TNC soon becomes costly for the few extra nutrients plus it will not address the Fe EDDHA either.
> 
> ...


Eventually purchased some Epson salts. I add two teaspoons at the WC. Need to purchase the iron now but I don't want to colour my water! I like it clear. Can I purchase a branded iron fertilizer that won't colour my water?


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## Neil6 (12 Jan 2021)

Neil6 said:


> Eventually purchased some Epson salts. I add two teaspoons at the WC. Need to purchase the iron now but I don't want to colour my water! I like it clear. Can I purchase a branded iron fertilizer that won't colour my water?


I'm still dosing 25mls of TNC daily correct?


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## dw1305 (12 Jan 2021)

Hi all, 


Neil6 said:


> Can I purchase a branded iron fertilizer that won't colour my water?


I think it is only FeEDDHA that tints the water. FeDTPA should do? Someone will know. I've only ever used FeEDTA, because I use rainwater in the tanks. 

cheers Darrel


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## Neil6 (13 Jan 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I think it is only FeEDDHA that tints the water. FeDTPA should do? Someone will know. I've only ever used FeEDTA, because I use rainwater in the tanks.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Hi Darrel 
I use RO water so I'm in the same boat as you?


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## dw1305 (13 Jan 2021)

Hi all, 


Neil6 said:


> I use RO water so I'm in the same boat as you?


Yes you are, and you should be able to use FeEDTA as <"your chelator">. 

The problem  with iron (Fe) is just keeping it in solution in hard, high pH water. 

Many ferric (Fe III) iron compounds <"are insoluble"> so if we add an iron salt, like <"iron chloride (FeCl3)">, to the tank the Fe+++ ions are instantly mopped up and form insoluble compounds like iron carbonate, oxide, hydroxide, <"phosphate"> etc. 

cheers Darrel


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## Neil6 (13 Jan 2021)




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## Neil6 (13 Jan 2021)

Is this one good to use?


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## Zeus. (13 Jan 2021)

Neil6 said:


> Is this one good to use?



Its should be fine, once mixed keep the solution in the dark as Fe DTPA is light sensitive in solution


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## Neil6 (13 Jan 2021)

Zeus. said:


> Its should be fine, once mixed keep the solution in the dark as Fe DTPA is light sensitive in solution


Many thanks


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## Neil6 (13 Jan 2021)

Zeus. said:


> Its should be fine, once mixed keep the solution in the dark as Fe DTPA is light sensitive in solution


Really dumb question: How do I mix up this iron solution and know how much to add?


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## GHNelson (13 Jan 2021)

*Usage * 
10g Fe 8% DTPA Chelated + 500ml water, 1ml solution per 100 l of tank water yields a concentration of 0.016ppm Fe  
20g Fe 8% DTPA + 500ml water, 1ml solution per 100 l of tank water yields a concentration of  0.032ppm Fe 
hoggie


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## Zeus. (13 Jan 2021)

As Hogan said




dose volume will depend on what target weekly Fe ppm your will aim for, my results are for 200l tank (which is what I think you have). Did two options 10 grams or dump the whole 50grams in


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## Zeus. (13 Jan 2021)

@Neil6 we didn't add Fe 8% DTPA to the IFC calculator , but just set 'Head' of coding (@Hanuman) the provisional coding for it so should be on next update for IFC calculator, any issues/questions just ask


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## Hanuman (14 Jan 2021)

@Neil6 Unless you have no choice, personally I wouldn't recommend anything below 11% Fe. My experience bieng that the lower the Fe % the more volume you need to add to obtain the desired Fe ppm which in turn increases even further the PH of the solution. Sulphur in the Fe will also tend to drop out of solution faster. This will become even worse if you try doing some All-in-one ferts.

Have a read at this and subsequent posts: DIY Fertilizer Formula Recommendation


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## Neil6 (14 Jan 2021)

Zeus. said:


> As Hogan said
> View attachment 160652
> 
> dose volume will depend on what target weekly Fe ppm your will aim for, my results are for 200l tank (which is what I think you have). Did two options 10 grams or dump the whole 50grams in


Just to be 100% clear for newbie. Adding 50grams into 500mls water container then add the target MLS  to my tank  to get the required ppm (after 50% water change)? What is the target Fe? How many MLS of Fe solution would you recommend adding?Remember I'm dosing 25mls daily of TNC Complete already. I'm sure it's not as
confusing as I thinking it is?


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## Zeus. (14 Jan 2021)

Hanuman said:


> @Neil6 Unless you have no choice, personally I wouldn't recommend anything below 11% Fe. My experience bieng that the lower the Fe % the more volume you need to add to obtain the desired Fe ppm which in turn increases even further the PH of the solution. Sulphur in the Fe will also tend to drop out of solution faster. This will become even worse if you try doing some All-in-one ferts.
> 
> Have a read at this and subsequent posts: DIY Fertilizer Formula Recommendation


Had forgot all about that


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## Zeus. (14 Jan 2021)

Neil6 said:


> What is the target Fe?



Well that is your call in some ways, as to what fe ppm to aim for can be a controversial subject IMO, Here are three popular dosing regimes






All work for some folk yet the weekly [Fe] varies nearly ten fold. so if you have added all 50g in 500ml I would add say 1ml a week to start with and see how it goes and watch your plants, I would dose it at night/lights off with it being photo sensitive, although @ceg4048  did say that after a couple of hours plants have had their fill


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## Neil6 (17 Jan 2021)

Ye


Zeus. said:


> Well that is your call in some ways, as to what fe ppm to aim for can be a controversial subject IMO, Here are three popular dosing regimes
> 
> View attachment 160708
> 
> All work for some folk yet the weekly [Fe] varies nearly ten fold. so if you have added all 50g in 500ml I would add say 1ml a week to start with and see how it goes and watch your plants, I would dose it at night/lights off with it being photo sensitive, although @ceg4048  did say that after a couple of hours plants have had their fill


Yes, added 50g in 500mls. 
Will start adding the 1ml a week after water change. 
As you stated huge PPM difference between them. 
Thanks for your support.


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