# Quarantine tank with an expensive dead fish. :(



## Zak Rafik (23 Sep 2014)

Hi Everyone,

I need your input and advice on how to go about setting up a quarantine tank and maintaining it when the fish are inside.

I bought 2 Zebra Otos (Zebra Otocinclu) and 4 Assassin snails for my planted tank and so I decided to quarantine them.

I have taken a photos of my *Quarantine Tank (QT)* setup. Please see below.


It consists of:

25 litres capacity (6.5 us gallon) tank BUT only used 16 litres of water.
A single sponge filter.
Water from the main tank.
Some plant cutting from my main tank.
I had the sponge inside my Eheim external canister for beneficial bacteria growth and used the sponge to cycle the QT before adding the fish.

These are the step I have taken.

Before adding the fish.

1-  Setup quarantine tank with 16 litres of water from my main tank and

single sponge filter.

2-  Threw in some Water Wisteria plant cuttings of from the main tank.

3-  Water parameters: Ammonia-0ppm, No2-0ppm, No3-10ppm. pH-6.4

4-  Added API Quick Start about 3ml.

5-  After 1 hour added EasyLife’s Liquid Media Filter about 5ml


Day 1 (evening)

1-  Got the Oto fish and Assassin snails from the LFS.

2-  Took out 50% of water from the plastic bag in which the fish were in and did

drip acclimatization for 2 hours.

3-  Netted the fish with a quarantine tank dedicated fish net

4-  Covered the tank’s side with black cloth to darken the tank.


Day 2 (evening)

1-  Did a 50% water change with water from main tank.

2-  Added API Quick Start about 3ml.

3-  Added EasyLife’s Liquid Media Filter about 5ml

4-  NO feeding for 24 hours


Day 3 (evening)

1-  Fed some par boiled zucchini. Fish not interested in food.

2-  Did a 50% water change with water from main tank.

3-  Added API Quick Start about 3ml.

4-  Added EasyLife’s Voogel about 3ml

When doing water change, noticed one of the Otos moving about slowly.


Day 4 (Today / morning)

Saw one of the Zebra Oto belly up and dead.

Quickly took a water check and the reading as follows:

Ammonia-  0.25ppm,

No2-  0.25ppm,

No3-  10ppm.

pH-  6.4

Did a 50% water change and added API Quick start to bring the Ammonia and No2 down.


During the past days, the 4 Assassin snails and the remaining one Zebra Oto were active and exploring the tank.

Now I want to ask the fellow members:
*Does the quarantine cycle for the fish restart all over again?*

*How long does a typical quarantine cycle last for small group of small sized fish?*

*Is a single sponge filter enough for a 25 litres tank?*

*Should I have avoided the EasyLife’s Liquid Filter Media and Voogel although it was highly recommended for quarantine process?*

*I intend to get about 12 Cardinal Tetras and 6 Threadfin Rainbow fish. 
Is the above tank enough for 18 fish to be quarantined together?*

*I have 4 normal Otos in the main tank, will these be enough to provide companionship to the now lonely Zebra Oto?*

*What could I have done to prevent the fish loss? Or did I take on a fish which is a challenge to keep in the first place.*

*Should I have used about 20 litres of water instead of 16 litres.*

Only after buying the expensive Zebra Otos, did I learn that they are very sensitive to water parameters and can be a challenge even for seasoned fish keepers.

http://everydaygreen.hubpages.com/hub/The-Zebra-Otocinclus-Catfish

This is my 1st time running a quarantine tank and now I have got the jitters after this fish death.
Apologize for the lengthy post but I’m really nervous now on adding any new fish.

Thank you so much
Raffik


http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-001_zpsaca6e7a2.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-002_zps84032e30.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-003_zps46fcf312.jpg

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/QT-process-004_zps6f07bcf7.jpg


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## ian_m (23 Sep 2014)

It's the ammonia (& nitrate), in fact any level of ammonia, that will have killed your fish. Ammonia & nitrite show you have not cycled the tank. The quarantine tank setup must be fully cycled, fish free, before it can be used (6 weeks), even using quick start will not speed things up substantially, though empty your wallet nicely.

I assume you are using water dechlorinator as any chlorine/chloramine in your water, whilst not good for you fish, will kill the bacteria in your filter, rendering the tank cycling back to day zero.

Things can do, is use 100% water from other tank & used filter media (with risk of carrying diseases over), however in my experience even doing so I have seen start to ammonia appear, especially if you have new substrate and décor.

Use frequent water changes (dechlorinated) and daily dosing AmQuel+ will keep ammonia at bay, if you have to emergency cycle a tank with fish in it. Been there done it, works. In fact you can use AmQuel+ as dechlorinator and ammonia remover.

But basically tank must be cycled 6 weeks of more before using.


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## Zak Rafik (23 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> Ammonia & nitrite show you have not cycled the tank.


I only use 100% water from my main tank where all readings are 0 ppm.




ian_m said:


> I assume you are using water dechlorinator as any chlorine/chloramine in your water,


I did not use any Seachem prime to dechlorinate the water as 100% of water in the quarantine tank is from from the main tank only. There was no need for any dechlorinators to begin with.




ian_m said:


> especially if you have new substrate and décor.


There is no substrate in the QT tank. Its a bare bottom setup. Please see photo.
As for the decor piece its used only during quarantine process.




ian_m said:


> But basically tank must be cycled 6 weeks of more before using.


Are you sure this is so for a quarantine tank with media and water from a disease free and good water parameters main tank?

Thanks
Raffik


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## ian_m (23 Sep 2014)

If it's not the chlorine/chloramine from water changes, you have fish killing ammonia (and nitrite from ammonia decomposition) from somewhere....therefore the tank is not cycled.


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## tam (23 Sep 2014)

It sounds like you did everything right, the sponge should have been colonised and been an instant mature filter. How long was it in your filter canister - maybe it wasn't long enough. Next time you could try running it as a sponge filter but inside you existing tank.

Have you checked your main tanks water as you're using that for changes?

I guess the other possibility is that the rise was a result of the dead body rather than the cause of the dead body. How is ammonia now? If it disappears again permanently that would imply a spike from the body. If you have an ongoing issue with it then the filter wasn't mature. 

I've been told Otos can be quite sensitive and you're more likely to lose them during quarantine than many other fish. One issue with them is feeding - if you did it again I'd add sticking some pebbles in a bucket of water in the sun to grow some algae to the prep (though I doubt that was the issue here).


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## BigTom (23 Sep 2014)

I would leave off all the additives in future - if the filter media has been transferred from a mature filter then it should have sufficient bacterial load to cope with a couple of small fish. Adding QuickStart, Liquid Filter, Voogel and whatever else is just going to introduce instability and increase the biological oxygen demand of the system (which may in turn have caused the ammonia in the tank).

Speaking of oxygen, otos are rheophilic fish with relatively high oxygen demands, so make sure your little sponge filter is producing a decent amount of surface agitation  - low O2 plus ammonia is certainly a combination that could have contributed to losing one of them. I wouldn't recommend quarantining all the other fish you mention at once with such limited filtration.

When setting up the QT again next time, I'd also move the filter media across a couple of days before you anticipate buying fish in order to give the bacteria time to stabilise - in the past I've noticed oxygen deprevation in quarantine tanks immediately after introducing a lot of bacteria.

That said, otos can be 'finicky' and you may just have got unlucky, especially if the fish were in poor health or not eating (always try and buy otos that have nice plump bellies as they sometimes struggle to eat properly after importation).


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## Edvet (23 Sep 2014)

Agree with Ian, ammonia/nitrite can be dangerous in a bare tank.
Why do you quarantine: to spot disease and to avoid contaminating other fish and to be able to treat the quarantine tank without treating the whole tank and destroying filterbacteria in that proces.
What do you expect from a quarantine tank: easy to maintain/clean, easy to spot the fish
What to do: get a tanksize which will give some stability to the water parameters (so i would have gone for something a bit bigger (50 x 30 x 30 cm)
I would have it running almost permanently to "prime" the filter, or have spare filters running on a spare tank (just some simple air driven sponge filter should do) you'll need a working filter, except when you have good quality water you can use (from tap if you are Lucky, or from a tank where fish are happy), then a daily 90% waterchnge can work too ( the way they keep and breed fish in exotic countries, no filter just huge waterchanges)
Just some basic hidingplaces, easy to remove and clean. I would add some plants, just some floaters or easy stems (hornwort or ceratopteris).These will use some nitrogen compounds, but large water changes or a functioning filter will be needed.
Important will be food, some apropriate live food is best. For a Otocinclus i would try to get some rocks/pebbles with some biofilm on it (put them in some shallow water in the sun/daylight, let them get some algae/slime, give a new one every day), most are severely underfed when you get them from the trade.

Me personally i never use quarantine. I believe in adding fish to a stable environment with good food sources and stable waterquality (preferably from a reliable dealer and after carefull visual inspection). I will loose some individuals, but i will not treat the whole tank anyway except for treatment through the food. Feeding is the best way to give them disease resistance. I do know fish from large breeders have the risk of carying diseases ( fishtuberculosis and so) but these are hard to treat anyway.
 For instance i bought a batch of Columbia tetra's which i presume to have been bred in Indonesia. I have been loosing individuals from this group steadily (one every three-four weeks with all the same symptoms), eventually they will be gone, but treating or quarantaining them would  not have changed this.
 For true quarantine you would need a large facility and outstanding lab facilities in order to do bacterial examination, research swabs and skin/gill scrapings, do feaces testing and pathology exams on dead fish.


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## EnderUK (23 Sep 2014)

I agree with Edvet, personally I have had nothing but trouble from quarantine tanks especially with Otos doing badly in them. If I was going to do a QT for otos again I would have in up and running for 2-4 weeks with high lights to get that algae going. My otos like your just plain ignored any food offered them. As soon as I gave up on the QT after an 5 out of 8 death ratio and put them in the main planted tank they got to eating and I only lost one after that.


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## parotet (23 Sep 2014)

My best bet for the moment has been to buy only fish that are on the LFS at least for some weeks (in one shop the arrival date is clearly shown on the label and on the other one I just ask). My features with new Otos has decreased significantly this way.
I have never used quarantine tanks...

Jordi


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## tam (23 Sep 2014)

Last time I bought two (healthy plump looking) Otos, I lost one and half of my other fish. I'm waiting to get more until I set up a quarantine tank.



Edvet said:


> i will not treat the whole tank anyway except for treatment through the food.



I don't think medicated food is available in the UK, as far as I know for antibiotics you need a prescription from a vet.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

Hi Everyone,
Thank you so much for all your valuable input. Learnt allot from your replies.



ian_m said:


> ....therefore the tank is not cycled.





tam said:


> How long was it in your filter canister - maybe it wasn't long enough.





tam said:


> If you have an ongoing issue with it then the filter wasn't mature.



I alway maintain a log on changes I make to the main tank and I just learnt that the sponge was inside the main filter for only 10 days. & 
So I guess, I was basically not doing things the right way.
I wanted the Zebra Otos so badly, I was totally blind to this important procedure.
You know what they say "Love is blind"




BigTom said:


> Speaking of oxygen, otos are rheophilic fish with relatively high oxygen demands, so make sure your little sponge filter is producing a decent amount of surface agitation


After reading your tip, I did add an extra air pump into the QT tank and it did help. I noticed the Oto was more active and "happy".



BigTom said:


> Adding QuickStart, Liquid Filter, Voogel and whatever else is just going to introduce instability


But the these products have won awards.They can't be that bad.




Edvet said:


> Me personally i never use quarantine.


Your advice sounds radical



Edvet said:


> For instance i bought a batch of Columbia tetra's which i presume to have been bred in Indonesia. I have been loosing individuals from this group steadily (one every three-four weeks with all the same symptoms), eventually they will be gone, but treating or quarantaining them would not have changed this.


If I were in your shoes, I would be pushing the panic button left, right and center. Aren't you concerned that where ever is killing the new fish might spread to the other fish?




Edvet said:


> For a Otocinclus i would try to get some rocks/pebbles with some biofilm on it





EnderUK said:


> If I was going to do a QT for otos again I would have in up and running for 2-4 weeks with high lights to get that algae going


Fantastic tip.




parotet said:


> to buy only fish that are on the LFS at least for some weeks


Absolutely! Can't agree more. Thats why I pay a little more knowing that I'm getting healthy fish.
I have seen right in front of my eyes where very sick fish were bought by people just because they're cheap.




tam said:


> I don't think medicated food


I have read good reviews of New Life Spectrum THERA + range of fish food. Hope its available near your place.
http://nlsfishfood.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=60

Anyway, I had enough of doing water changes and testing for Ammonia, No2 and No3 everyday for 1 fish.
So I took the plunge and released the 4 Assisine snails and the lonely Zebra Oto into the main tank about 3 hours ago. So far he/she seems OK.

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/OTos-in-main-tank_zps336ceef4.jpg

Cheers
Raffik


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## ian_m (25 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> BigTom said:
> 
> Adding QuickStart, Liquid Filter, Voogel and whatever else is just going to introduce instability
> 
> But the these products have won awards.They can't be that bad.


Yes they are fantastic at getting those that don't know to part with their money. You had a cycled tank, none of these should have been necessary.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ian_m said:


> Yes they are fantastic at getting those that don't know to part with their money.



Hi 
Even Voogel and Liquid filter which is touted as a "tonic" to keep the fish health and resistance to any disease?
http://www.easylifeint.com/freshwater/easy-life-fluid-filter-medium
http://www.easylifeint.com/freshwater/voogle


Whats your opinion about API's Zeolite Ammonia Remover or Seachem's Purigen? Are they any good for use in a quarantine tank (of course, after the tank has cycled) to remove ammonia?

Zeolite
(Zeolite Ammonia Remover is a 100% natural ammonia-removing medium for use in freshwater aquariums. It works well in both, newly set-up aquariums to help prevent new tank syndrome and in established aquariums to remove toxic ammonia.)
http://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?sectionid=1&catid=16&subcatid=90&id=562#.VCPQ4_mSx8E

Purigen
(controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds)
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Purigen.html

Thanks
Raffik


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## Edvet (25 Sep 2014)

Look at the tank you put them in, don't you think that has the best chances for them? Lots of O2, healthy clean water, even some detritus and biofilm to feed on. Far better thena quarantine tank with dodgy parameters on more stress due to small volume.
I think they have the best chance in a run in healthy tank, better then all kind of chemical substances to "help" them and make some money on the producers. Of course fish will die, but so will they in nature. A dead fish in my tank gets eaten in 24 hours if i miss it. Not saying i emulate nature, but i am not overly worried. And as i said quarantine to be usefull needs a hell of a lot more work then a separate tank. Correct diagnosis and correct treatment are neccesary.


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## ian_m (25 Sep 2014)

Can't comment on Voogel and Liquid filter, only can find Voogel skin care products in Google. . As I said, they part you with your money, but at least you feel you have done something. If Voogel is a fertiliser (not skin care !!) then you are just paying for a few salts and a lot of water. Liquid filter is not necessary as you already have mature filter product available.

Zeilit does work, however you shouldn't really be getting into the situation in having ammonia and fish in the water at the same time. The ammonia will naturally, and at no cost to you, go away by itself if you are patient. On saying that I have (and also know people who have) used AmQuel+ in emergency situation.

Purigen works as well as a water polisher. I use it, works well. However really meant for matured tanks, not to avoid cycling tanks.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

Edvet said:


> Far better thena quarantine tank with dodgy parameters on more stress due to small volume.


To tell the truth, I felt the same same way as you do and still do but when you read in books and on the Net, it seems quarantine is something that MUST be done or be prepared for doom.




Edvet said:


> A dead fish in my tank gets eaten in 24 hours if i miss it.


That's why I love Amano shrimps. They're like the Mafia guys. They get the job done quick and clean.



ian_m said:


> only can find Voogel skin care products in Google. .



Ok ok, my fault. Typo error.

I'm now kind of sitting on the fence.
I want to add 12 cardinal tetras and 6 threadfin rainbows to my tank. I intend to get it from a reputed LFS which I have frequented many times and have been impressed by it's healthy fish and clean tanks.
I can 90% be sure that their fish are in tip top condition.

BUT

On the other hand by not doing a quraninte, it feels like I'm playing Russian Roulette with my tank.


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

I don't really quarantine mine but I do observe them for 24 hours before putting them into the main tank. Sometimes, I just dump them in. 

So far no issues. *fingers crossed*


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ltsai said:


> I don't really quarantine mine but I do observe them for 24 hours before putting them into the main tank. Sometimes, I just dump them in.
> 
> So far no issues. *fingers crossed*


Hi Itsai,
How do you observe them before you put them in your main tank? Isn't that kind of quarantine. Does it not create more "stress" for the fish?
Where do you get your fish from?

Cheers
Raffik


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## ian_m (25 Sep 2014)

Years ago, when I kept fish and quarantine tanks weren't even thought of and fish quality & health was not so good as today, I used to dose the tank with anti-ich a week before & after I got new fish. Also used to dose methylene blue, but can kill filter bacteria, stain silicone and fish blue if not careful. This was because one could almost guarantee an ich outbreak every time one added fish, this dosing was recommended in my 1990's tropical fish book. The ich either came with new fish and change of conditions bought it out or was latent in my tank and got the new fish as they were stressed due to a change of environment.

However, I don't bother now, just let bag of fish adjust a while and let fish loose. All my current fish have come from the same shop, which keeps their tanks well looked after and they do quarantine all their new stock before sale.


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

Well, technically is still a quarantine except I neither have the patience nor spare tanks for weeks of quarantine.

I sometimes don't even have a sponge filter running and no aeration. Sometimes just an air tube. All in a bucket.

I just make simple observations like whether they are still swimming around and not lethagic. Body is ok. Nothing abnormal on the body.


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Where do you get your fish from?



Various sources. I don't like the fish from our C328. I typically get mine from Ben from Tiong Bahru and the other stall at the market. Sometimes Polyart.



Zak Rafik said:


> Isn't that kind of quarantine.


Yes, also acclimating them into the tank's water parameters. I will do a 50:50 ratio but is just an estimate. I will then net them out to avoid introducing the bag's water into the tank.


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

RCS will be different. I use the drip method for > 24 hours. But my low grade bag of 50 will eventually die on me after a few weeks. 

I don't have any luck on Panda Corydoras or RCS.  I keep losing them.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ltsai said:


> I neither have the patience


I can high five you on that one.




ian_m said:


> I don't bother now, just let bag of fish adjust a while and let fish loose.


Its seems tropical fish which are mostly bred in tank can be safe enough to be realised without quarantine but not so with marine fish which are caught in the wild. 
Is this correct?

How about for shrimps?

Guess I have to muster enough courage and get the fish for my tank soon. 

Cheers
Raffik


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Its seems tropical fish which are mostly bred in tank can be safe enough to be realised without quarantine but not so with marine fish which are caught in the wild.
> Is this correct?



I know our local guys at AQ always medicate and quarantine their wild caught Altum Angels.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ltsai said:


> I don't like the fish from our C328


I visited that shop before and I was shocked at the way they keep the fish. I bet its like Nightmare on Elm Street for the fish. Poor guys. ( edit: I meant for the fish and not the shop owner)



ltsai said:


> But my low grade bag of 50 will eventually die on me after a few weeks.
> I don't have any luck on Panda Corydoras or RCS. I keep losing them.


Same here. I bought about 30 of RCS but I only see a handful of them in the morning. But the good news is that they managed to have baby shrimplets. They are so utra cute. My heart melts whenever I see them.
Maybe the other guys are also "busy" at procreation.


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Same here. I bought about 30 of RCS but I only see a handful of them in the morning. But the good news is that they managed to have baby shrimplets. They are so utra cute. My heart melts whenever I see them.



Good luck! That's why I torn my tank down on Sunday. After 3-4 years, I never got it right. I just can't have a decent lush green tank. I get that jealous and dejected feeling every time I see a pretty tank. Tried for so many years but never turned out well for me. And I keep gassing my fish recently. Can't afford the CO2Art dual stage regulator to replace my UP Aqua A-165. 

Now is just a bare tank with the fish and some moss and left over wood.


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## Edvet (25 Sep 2014)

I can truthfully say i have never seen Ich in my tank in 20+ years.
The only treatment i would do is use FMC for a parasitic skin condition, or a internal parasite treatment like Flubenol, and mix that through food.
Generally i look at the fish before i buy them real close, make sure they transfer real slow (drip through airhose in a bucket repeat once) and feed the rest of the tank after transfer so they know there is food and get atracted to it (there is always a feedingfrenzy in my tank). Sometimes i will loose a fish after transfer, but i chalck it up to transferstress and go on. Then again i always buy quite large groups 6,12 or 18 to be prepared for some deaths and still have a nice group.
Having a healthy stressfree environment is best medicine against disease and the best prevention against infections due to good resistance.



ltsai said:


> Now is just a bare tank with the fish and some moss and left over wood


 Go low tech, plenty of examles here of great tanks.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ltsai said:


> After 3-4 years, I never got it right. I just can't have a decent lush green tank. I get that jealous and dejected feeling every time I see a pretty tank. Tried for so many years but never turned out well for me. And I keep gassing my fish recently. Can't afford the CO2Art dual stage regulator to replace my UP Aqua A-165.



Whenever I post photos of my tank on YouTube or other forums, I always manage to get compliments. But to tell you the truth, this is my first ever planted tank. The rest were all bare bottom ones or with a little bit of gravel setups.
Apologize if I sound rude, but through my few months of experience, I learnt to  just stick to a very few selected source of information. 
This forum is on the top of my list. 
You can absolutely forget about FaceBook groups. Its a load of rubbish and the people there seem to relish on other people's failure rather than give constructive information.
And as for the local one, take it with a pinch of salt ( and sometimes a spoonful). Many a time, I have  wondered if the replies were coming from the mouth a six year old!

When I had  sever problems with Co2 in my planted tank, this forum saved me tons of headaches and heartache. Now my plants are growing like crazy and I'm think of ways to slow the growth rate. All thanks to the guys/ladies here. 
Again sorry if I sound boastful.

Cheers
Raffik



Edvet said:


> The only treatment i would do is use FMC


What's FMC?


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## Edvet (25 Sep 2014)

http://www.fishbase.gr/Diseases/DiseasesSummary2.php?discode=1151
It's a widely used solution against skinparasites.


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Whenever I post photos of my tank on YouTube or other forums, I always manage to get compliments. But to tell you the truth, this is my first ever planted tank.





Zak Rafik said:


> When I had sever problems with Co2 in my planted tank, this forum saved me tons of headaches and heartache. Now my plants are growing like crazy and I'm think of ways to slow the growth rate. All thanks to the guys/ladies here.



See! 

I don't get the luxury even after following the recommendation: low light + high flow + good surface agitation + up atomiser + over dose EI + using up 1L co2 tank in 4-6 weeks with no leaks, all in my 54L tank.  Was about to buy a 20" tall water filter housing and external pump until I broke my up atomiser hose clamp to try to clean it to bring back the mist. Just too many frustrations after so many years until I decided is enough for now.

But I'm now itchy for a shrimp only tank when my batch of fighting fish are all grown up.

Wife did say now I should have more time for my kids instead of twice water changes every week and trying to figure out what went wrong...


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ltsai said:


> Wife did say now I should have more time for my kids instead of twice water changes every week and trying to figure out what went wrong...


I feel for you bro. ( just kidding)




ltsai said:


> I don't get the luxury even after following the recommendation: low light + high flow + good surface agitation + up atomiser + over dose EI + using up 1L co2 tank in 4-6 weeks with no leaks, all in my 54L tank.



You know sometimes, the recommendations on this forum may seem quite unorthodox. They may seem to go against what we thought was the norm. An excellent example is my own in this thread about quarantine  process. If I were to post this same question in other forums, I can safely say that the answers would be congruent with what we have been "programmed" to believe by certain product manufacturers.

"You want to quaraintine. No problem! Just pour 5 ml of this, 10 ml of that."
"You have got algae problem. Don't worry! We have the right chemical for you."

If not for this forum on EI dosing, I would most probably be spending loads of $$$ on ADA's super diluted liquid fertilizers (96% water + 4% minerals) or some other similar brand and when the tank fails, we naturally blame ourselves on the lack of competence.
We say "How come the tank always looks awesome on the manufacturer's website while my tank sucks. It's got to be my fault"
The truth is, we have been lead to believe that their product is always right and when things go wrong, the fault on our side.

Just approach the advice on this forum with an open mind and try it out. If its not working, tweak it.
"Patience is a virtue" if not more so in fish keeping.

Cheers
Raffik


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## ltsai (25 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Just approach the advice on this forum with an open mind and try it out. If its not working, tweak it.
> "Patience is a virtue" if not more so in fish keeping.



Yeah, been tweaking for many years until I give up, at least for now... 

I know all the theories but I just can't execute it correctly.


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## Zak Rafik (25 Sep 2014)

ltsai said:


> Yeah, been tweaking for many years until I give up, at least for now...
> 
> I know all the theories but I just can't execute it correctly.



May the force be with you.


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## Zak Rafik (26 Sep 2014)

Just to update.
The new Zebra Otos seems very much settled into the main tank. It was just hanging around the corner since late evening which I was quite concerned about. But by night, he was ok.
Funny thing is, all the other 4 normal Otos gathered around this new guys and checking him out. I found this strange. It was like a welcoming kind of gesture. lol

This morning the new Otos was happy as a lark and was feeding on the algae on the wood.
This is the photo.

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b631/Zak_Rafik/IMG_7673_zps2fb194ef.jpg


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## sciencefiction (27 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> I have 4 normal Otos in the main tank, will these be enough to provide companionship to the now lonely Zebra Oto?



I have a zebra otto with 3 other regular ones which also are mixed breed and the 4 of them hang out together when not browsing for food so your otto will be happy enough with non-zebra buddies.
They are not any more sensitive than the rest.

For quarantine I sometimes use my small tank. It's heavily planted/soil tank with some cherry shrimp so it's technically always cycled and suitable for any sensitive small fish. My new ottos bred in it within 3 weeks of purchase.

But same as Edvert, I believe the most important is an established tank with the right environment and if I can't provide one via a ready quarantine tank then I don't quarantine. And in fact I've been lucky to never introduce any diseases either. Same as Edvert I have never seen ich in my tanks. I've added clown loaches twice in one of my tanks and they are notorious for getting ich when introduced. Some people swear they do get ich each time and I was advised to treat just in case but I don't add meds to my tanks because of fear. Meds can be more dangerous than the diseases.

I believe one has to provide the least stressful and healthy environment because adding an immune system compromised fish to an uncycled tank for example, or a tank too small, or too bare,  or moving/catching fish twice within the space of a month or two after they just possibly got used of the tank, isn't going to help them resist the environmental bacs and parasites lurking in all tanks which is why 90% of the time fish get sick in the first place. Fish with primary diseases that are highly contagious will be most likely already sick when you see them in the shop, or dead within a few days so to avoid that you just need to let the shop quarantine/wait after they brought them in. Other famous dangerous diseases like camallanus worms or micobacteria/fish tb take months to show so unless you quarantine for 3-6 months to a year and be extremely careful when working on multiple tanks, the chances are your other tanks will be infected whether you like it or not, and whether you use quarantine or not.

A true quarantine tank has to be very established, in a totally different room from the rest of your tanks, with it's own devices/nets/hoses/buckets for water changes and extremely diligent procedures for disinfecting yourself/hands before touching anything else after working in the quarantine tank, including door knobs 

So I don't stress about diseases. I observe the fish in the shop, also the inhabitants with them. I ask how long they've been in the shop, etc.... I normally do a large water change on the target tank,  then buy the fish, drip acclimate for 1-2 hrs, then add the fish, then feed everyone so the previous occupants don't get too curious and normally the new fish feel like at home immediately.


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## Lindy (27 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Funny thing is, all the other 4 normal Otos gathered around this new guys and checking him out. I found this strange. It was like a welcoming kind of gesture. lol


When I introduced new ottos to the otto gang the new ones were checked out and then they had quite an excited 'frolic' is the only way to describe it.


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> I have a zebra otto with 3 other regular ones which also are mixed breed and the 4 of them hang out together when not browsing for food so your otto will be happy enough with non-zebra buddies.
> They are not any more sensitive than the rest.


Good to hear. Thanks.
What do you feed your Zebra Oto?
Whenever I feed my normal Otos par boiled zucchini, which they seem to relish, my Zebra Oto seems the least interested in it. 




ldcgroomer said:


> When I introduced new ottos to the otto gang the new ones were checked out and then they had quite an excited 'frolic' is the only way to describe it.


How many Otos can one have in a 4ft / 120cm?

Cheers and have a nice weekend.
Raffik


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## Lindy (28 Sep 2014)

I don't know, lots but you might have to feed them. Mine have to get cucumber etc as there isn't enough food that occurs naturally in the tank. I have 8 in a 190litre and you wouldn't know they are there unless you watch from a distance. Then the gang comes out and swims and feeds together.


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Good to hear. Thanks.
> What do you feed your Zebra Oto?
> Whenever I feed my normal Otos par boiled zucchini, which they seem to relish, my Zebra Oto seems the least interested in it.



I've had him for about 2 years. I haven't seen him eat any vegetables. This may have something to do with my pleco taking over each time though. However, I noticed that if there's other stuff for them to eat around the tank, they don't go for veg that much if at all.  I have a baby otto which used to be stuck to a blanched zucchini non-stop while growing, now he won't touch veg.
 The zebra otto is almost always on the front glass cleaning it or on the round stones I have around the tank which I suppose grow some sort of algae/biofilm for them to eat.  The tank is not exactly ridden with algae, very little, but it isn't sparkling clean because it's been setup for around 4 years and I don't ever clean the glass because of the pleco and ottos.  This is however the third tank I put him into. He was in a shrimp tank first, then plop and drop in another tank for a few months,  which leaked so I grabbed him and put him in this tank a year and a half ago. He is tough, didn't seem to notice the move and I just scooped him out from one tank to the other.
 All the 4 ottos gather on exactly the same spot on a branch of driftwood when not browsing for food which is very cute despite that they are 3 different species.   They are very funny when the lights are off as they do all kinds of stunts around.


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

ldcgroomer said:


> Mine have to get cucumber etc as there isn't enough food that occurs naturally in the tank.


You'r lucky. 
I tried giving boiled cucumber to my Otos. I get this "Tell me this is a joke! You gotta be kidding right" expression on their face and never touch it.
They simply love zucchini. But one thing I love about Otos is that, they're always on the job cleaning the leaves and glass. I can't say the same for my 3 Siamese Algae Eaters (SAE). They're alway playful and not interested in cleaning the tank or maybe there's not much algae to start off with in the tank.

But for the past few days, the SAEs are getting to "bully" the Otos when its feeding time and so I'm think of returning them to the LFS who has agree to it.
Maybe I'll get 4 or 5 more of the normal Otos once the SAEs are out. ( My tank is a 255 litres)



ldcgroomer said:


> Then the gang comes out and swims and feeds together.


I get to a head count whenever I'm doing a PWC on my tank. They gather at the far end of the tank until I've filled up the tank once more.




sciencefiction said:


> The zebra otto is almost always on the front glass cleaning it or on the round stones


My mine think he's a VIP in the tank. Doesn't do much, just hangs around the woods and watches the world go by.
I was warned by the LFS that Zebra Otos can be lazy and that they shouldn't be relied upon to clean the tank. The real work horses are the normal Otos.



sciencefiction said:


> They are very funny when the lights are off as they do all kinds of stunts around.



OK.........And I'm sure they were "excitedly frolicing"  as ldcgroomer politely put it. That explains why you have baby Otos.
Your tank setup must have been so comfortable enough for them to breed. Good for you.
If its not troublesome, maybe you can upload a photo of your tank. Very curious to see your tank, as I have read that its not that easy to get Otos to breed in a tank.

Cheers
Raffik


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

The ottos which bred are another couple that I bought during the summer. I put them in my small shrimp tank I mentioned about earlier and they bred within 3 weeks. That tank has been setup for years but got a soil layer about a year and a half ago. My other 4 ottos are 3 different species and I've got no male/female pair from them. But they get on regardless.

Here is the tank in which the two bred:







Zak Rafik said:


> I was warned by the LFS that Zebra Otos can be lazy and that they shouldn't be relied upon to clean the tank.



I don't know how effective they are at cleaning but mine is as active as the rest, if not more active. They do all hang around doing nothing sometimes but all of them are very lively at night. My tank is in the sitting room and I can always see white bellies dancing on the glass when the lights are off and the zebra otto is the most regular as he's on it during the day too.


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## ltsai (28 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> But for the past few days, the SAEs are getting to "bully" the Otos when its feeding time and so I'm think of returning them to the LFS who has agree to it.



Which LFS is this?


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> Here is the tank in which the two bred:


Nice setup. What are the specs? ( If you don't mind)



sciencefiction said:


> 3 different species


So apart from Zebra Otos, what are the other 2?




sciencefiction said:


> all of them are very lively at night.


Yes, I do notice my Zebra Oto does the same. Maybe he likes to do the night shifts.


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Nice setup. What are the specs? ( If you don't mind)


 
It's a cube. 30x30x30. They are out of it now and I moved them to my 5f tank. They really enjoy bigger space to be honest, long term, but for breeding purposes it can work, or quarantine as it's a running tank so it's good for more sensitive fish you need observing. I didn't put them in there to quarantine but because I thought they'll be less stressed in a tank of their own until I fatten them up.


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> I moved them to my *5f tank*.


I'm so green with envy.


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> So apart from Zebra Otos, what are the other 2?


 
A male otocinclus hoppei and two females macrospilus, and the male zebra otto, total 4 in that tank.
The ones that bred are male and a female vittatus.
I actually only noticed my other 3 apart from the zebra are different species after I got the vittatus couple as it got me wondered why they never bred 



Zak Rafik said:


> Yes, I do notice my Zebra Oto does the same. Maybe he likes to do the night shifts.


 
They are more active at night but that could be because that tank is not very well planted, plenty of open areas and lots of other fish. But the ones in the 5f tank are active all day as it's very densely planted. I guess with better cover they feel more comfortable.


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> it's good for more sensitive fish you need observing.


How long do you usually wait to add new fish after you have added some fish to the main tank. ( meaning time gap).
I'm now looking to add the following to my 4ft

16 Cardinal Tetras
12 Rummy Nose Tetras
12 Bloodfin Tetras
12 Lemon Tetras
12 Glassbloodfin Tetras
12 Blue Tetras ( if I can get them)

In what sequence do you think is best to add the above variety to the main tank?

Currently I have:
4 normal Otos + 1 Zebra Oto
10 Amano shrimps
20 Red Cherry Shrimps
3 SAEs (which will be returned)



sciencefiction said:


> two females macrospilus


My word,  the macrospilus variety looks awesome. Love those markings on the body.

When you bought the fish, did you intentionally select males and females? If so, who did you go about doing it.


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> Currently I have:
> 4 normal Otos + 1 Zebra Oto
> 10 Amano shrimps
> 20 Red Cherry Shrimps
> 3 SAEs (which will be returned)


 
I'd generally skip the shrimp as being much of a bioload so lets say you have 8 fish in the tank currently. The most you would want to increase the bioload at a time/ per week would be half of the current bioload the max, so 4 fish of the same size the first time. That would make it 12 fish. Next time/week you can try 6 fish to bring it up to 18, then next time 9, etc..
That makes it pretty annoying as you want to add schools of fish and it's best to add one school at once You can maybe add the first 12 of whichever tetras. That would have an impact on the bioload the first time as it will have a 150% increase, and you'd have to do plenty of water changes. But it's only once. In two weeks time you can then the tank maybe able to handle another school of similar size.



Zak Rafik said:


> When you bought the fish, did you intentionally select males and females? If so, who did you go about doing it.


 
No, I didn't even pick them. The first 3 came out from exactly the same tank from the same LFS and the shop assistant caught whatever he found fit.  They turned out a male and two females from different species. The last two I bought from the same shop as well but some year or two later and they had only 3 ottos left in the tank. One of them was emaciated and lasted 24hrs after I bought him. The other two turned out a male and a female from the same species. But I learned now how to distinguish males from females looking at their belly.

I haven't kept tetras so I am not very familiar which ones are more aggressive but you want to add the most aggressive school the last.


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

Great tips. Thanks and much appreciated.



sciencefiction said:


> and you'd have to do plenty of water changes.


So would that be twice a week PWC of about 50% ?




sciencefiction said:


> which ones are more aggressive but you want to add the most aggressive school the last.


I intentionally chose the non agressive ones. In fact this the main reason, I'm returning the SAEs. I don't want them to harass the tetras.


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Zak Rafik said:


> So would that be twice a week PWC of about 50% ?


 
I'd say more likely 50% every other day for a week or if you have tests at least the ammonia/nitrite lock to 0 all the time. If the tank is well planted it can handle more bioload at a time.



Zak Rafik said:


> I'm returning the SAEs. I don't want them to harass the tetras.


 
Are you sure you've got true SAE's? Do they have a black blotch on their belly near the anal fin?


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> Are you sure you've got true SAE's? Do they have a black blotch on their belly near the anal fin?


Yes, they do. 
Initially I got 10 of them. For some reason 7 went missing one by one over a period of time.
It seems SAEs need to be kept in a group of at least 5.


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Yes, I think they should be kept either in singles or in a school. I hadn't realised they harass other fish. You are probably right to give them away as ottos are timid and don't compete with other algae eaters, at least not for veggies. SAEs grow too big as well. I've seen them fully grown and 10 of them would feed my family a nice dinner, joking  but they'll become quite a bioload one day.


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> I hadn't realised they harass other fish.


Its not that they fight amongst themselves, its just that there is this dominant one which tried to chase the others.
At first, it was doing so only on the other SAEs but for the past 1 week, it has started to harass the Otos as well. Thats when I decided that the SAEs need to go.

On hindsight, I do feed the SAEs and Otos only on alternate days and maybe these guys are simply reacting to the sudden source of food given to them.



sciencefiction said:


> SAEs grow too big as well.


Yup and up to 15cm! I have seen quite a few adult ones and they definitely won't fit into the kind of scape I'm trying to build for my planted tank.

When I first setup the tank, I had a bad case of black beard algae (BBA) and the LFS insisted that the SAEs would be the right fish to control BBA. I was naive enough to believe them and thats how the SAEs got into my tank.



ltsai said:


> Which LFS is this?


Hi Itsai,
Sorry buddy, I can't name the LFS. He is taking back the SAEs and doing so out of good will and I don't want to abuse his kindness.
The SAEs are very cheap but I simply can't bring myself to dump them in some pond or somewhere where I know they might not survive.
Cheers and take care
Raffik


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Did they not eat the BBA?  I know there are 16 or 17 species of SAE and some of them are identically looking and not all of them eat BBA or algae at all, but the true SAEs like the ones with clear fins, black blotch on the belly, black zig/zag sort of line from nose to end of tail should.  And they aren't supposed to be territorial or aggressive. But without having kept them myself it's all online BS


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## Zak Rafik (28 Sep 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> Did they not eat the BBA?


I can't really tell because before I introduced the SAEs into the tank, I spot treated the BBA with Excel. After that episode, there has not been any outbreak of BBA in the tank.

Anyway to treat BBA, we have to get to the root cause of it.




sciencefiction said:


> But without having kept them myself it's all online BS


Honesty much appreciated.


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## dw1305 (28 Sep 2014)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> They are more active at night


I'm pretty sure they become more nocturnal as they get older. Mine have always been in very weedy tanks with a constant supply of vegetables, and they very rarely move around much during the day once they've settled in. 

Usually about an hour before lights off they become much more active.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (28 Sep 2014)

Yes, I suppose that could be true too.


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