# tmc signature 60 planted



## george dicker

hi, after jumping in the deep end with a high tech tank and getting crazy algae problems i have decided to start a new lower tech planted tank, here is a picture of it all starting


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

ther we are, what do you think t5s or t8s


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## george dicker




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## darren636

T8 or t5. Doesn't really matter


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## darren636

T5 might offer space saving though...


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

tank filled with jbl substrate and poly sperma


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## Deano3

Lovely tank you got ur hard scape figured out yet mate ? Or plant list etc ? Wat fluval filter you have there ?

Thanks Dean


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## george dicker

no hard scape, going dutch ! fluval 206


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## george dicker

i struggled with my last tank, high light, high co2 with not much clue what i was doing, so going simple with this one weekly 10 percent water changes, dosing once a week and weak co2, medium light


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

finally managed to upload more pics


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## Ian Holdich

Hi, I think you're gonna need to up the water changes at the start of you set up. Ten percent a week really isn't enough to get rid of all the remaining nasties IMO. Dosing once a week, isn't a good idea when pumping c02 into your tank. The Damond's on the plants become a little more when you're pumping c02 in the tank. You may end up with more algae if the plants don't get what they need. 

What are the plants with the plants?


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## george dicker

going with easy plants rotala green ludwigia and hygrophilia, I find when iscrewed around with water fish died


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## darren636

george dicker said:


> going with easy plants rotala green ludwigia and hygrophilia, I find when iscrewed around with water fish died


 its not screwing around - water changed are essential! 

A bucket, add dechlorinator, fill up with water- its best not to use freezing water, and away you go.


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## Filip

Agree with darren636. Water changes are essential with aquatic hobby. 20% at list per week and if You dosing plant food even more. Get some bucket


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## george dicker

okay cant I leave the water overnight instead of dechlorolinater also is mg204 gh booster


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## darren636

george dicker said:


> okay cant I leave the water overnight instead of dechlorolinater also is mg204 gh booster


not really, unless you know with certainty that chloramine is not in the tap water.


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## Filip

I'm use HMA filter. It remove chloramine and heavy metals from tap water. It make water safe and ready to use in tank.


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## george dicker

better be safe than sorry


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## Filip

Have you plant any plants yet?


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## george dicker

struggling to post a pic


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## Filip

For guide how to post a photo go Technical/Help | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## george dicker

I know too hard


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

brown algae ?


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## george dicker

I wanna keep my plants, but I also wanna keep crystal reds, dilemma ?


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## george dicker

I think maybe I could do it, read an interesting article by tom barr on crystal reds and false information, im going to give them a try 75 percent ro 25 tap water, minimum ferts, low co2 20 percent water change weekly and see how I will get on


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

really not getting the growth I want !


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## george dicker




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## george dicker




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## george dicker




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## george dicker

dipidlis diandra crystal red and limnophil aqromatica


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## george dicker




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## Lindy

Did you do the large daily water changes for the first week followed by large weekly water changes?


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## Robert H. Tavera

you can simply take out the algae that´s growing on the glass with a sponch, that´s fine because that way your shimps could only eat the one on the plants.

I see that your plants aren't growing like crazy but they are growing.. patience, patience, in a few months you'll have a paradise !


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## george dicker

I hope so, im doing 2 25 percent water changes a week 80 percent ro/di 20 percent tap, im gonna get a tunze co2 diffusor cause it has a pump with it so it will spread the co2 then I can really ramp it up !


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

[DOUBLEPOST=1396274663][/DOUBLEPOST]

[DOUBLEPOST=1396274695][/DOUBLEPOST]

[DOUBLEPOST=1396274744][/DOUBLEPOST]rotala is not thriving, the new tunze co2 reactor is working v well !


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## george dicker

bee shrimp died cause of high tds


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## george dicker

[DOUBLEPOST=1397220105][/DOUBLEPOST]

[DOUBLEPOST=1397220138][/DOUBLEPOST]the difference !


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## george dicker

[DOUBLEPOST=1397845104][/DOUBLEPOST]rotala has improved somewhat getting abit of hair algae too


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## george dicker

hello, after a 2 month hospitalization im back, plants are looking terrible, just an update


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## James D

Sorry to hear that George, hope you're on the mend. Your tank was looking nice as it grew in,hopefully you can get it back on track.


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## george dicker

hi, might have to buy new plants as its taken months to get these ones back on track as you say, trying to take a picture but cant seem to paste it


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## george dicker

gonna try and get my chemistry right, could someone post some decent parameters
?


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## george dicker

thought id give a run down of the test kits I have
dkh 4.8
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
what else would be good to test for, also trying to find a good photo sharing website so I can post pictures


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## James D

I wouldn't worry about any of that with a planted tank George. Just concentrate on cleanliness, flow and distribution of CO2.


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## george dicker

well, im struggling to keep plants alive, so I WOULD say parameters were important


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## James D

I use Post image George, I don't know how good it is exactly but it's free and you don't need to sign up, I'm happy with it so far.

As for your parameters, if you feel you need to know go for it but from what more experienced members than me have said it's not too important. Maybe doing a ph profile to check your CO2 would be more beneficial.


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## george dicker

okay cheers, getting little bits of black beard so ill check my co2 and start doing water changes at night so co2 can catch up


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## george dicker

https://imageshack.com/i/hjU7dfvyj





its been so difficult to post a pic, here is what my tank looks like today


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## James O

george dicker said:


> well, im struggling to keep plants alive, so I WOULD say parameters were important



Not much point in water parameters if it's the same old water........decent water changes are essential/mandatory. Think how often the water is changed in even the slowest moving stream.  Now think of a stagnant pond........

If your struggling to grow plants maybe try lotech and then add CO2 later?  It's much easier to start with


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## george dicker

well ok, yea lo tech has always seemed appealing, and I agree it is probably easier, but I have everything up and running, co 2  and ferts.

I change 25 percent 3 to 1 ro twice a week and fertilize ei, I should have a jungle but hey, I am cursed


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## James O

Give us a breakdown of the tank - photoperiod (ibc light wattage & distance from water), CO2 period (inc drop checker colour), flow in the tank (spraybar etc?)


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## george dicker

7 hour photoperiod, 2 t5 bulbs, co2 is at 12 mg/l but im trying to raise to 20, not much flow, just a fluval 106 filter


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## James O

The 106 is only 550lph under 0 head (for tanks up to 100l according to fluval)  Earlier you said you had the 206 with 780lph.

Neither will provide sufficient movement of water in a CO2 injected 120l tank. You need flow to mix your added CO2 or else you're just making fizzy water where the gas escapes before doing the job you injected it for in the first place.  In essence you may have been providing ideal circumstance algae by having no real CO2, otherwise know as lo tech, and thus the photoperiod (time & wattage) is too much.

A more powerful filter would be my first port of call.  A powerhead powered spraybar along the back might help or a decent powerhead.

Once your CO2 is reaching the plants they can use the light to outcompete the algae and off you go!


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## george dicker

ok, that's very helpful, so what would be my next port of call, a more powerful filter or a powerhead ?

I have a tunze diffusor that acts as a powerhead...... kinda


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## James O

The simple version would be a more powerful filter with a spray bar on the back wall firing forwards - this creates a circular flow along the surface, down the front glass, across the substrate and back up the rear glass. 

A powerhead/wavemaker placed under the filter outlet could work but you need to make sure the CO2 is being driven around the tank.


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## george dicker

it is always at 20 mg /l not getting any growth though


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## James D

Hi George, how's it going?

From what I can see on your pics your plants look fairly healthy, is it the growth rate your concerned about or are there other problems, melting etc? I couldn't quite make out how your filter outlet and powerhead are set up in your pictures, but it looks like they are working against each other somewhat (apologies if I'm mistaken). You need them to be working together to create a nice circular flow. Your tank does seem fairly deep so maybe your struggling with the distribution of CO2 at substrate level. I'd agree with James O about the spray bar although I don't like how they look personally.


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## george dicker

co2 distribution is fine, im changing diffuser for aesthetical reasons, and also changing ferts, so ill see where that goes, would it be a possibility that the plants are too small to get enough energy to grow, cheers


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## george dicker

decided to put up some parameters and could some one correct me what i should add or takeaway cheers

co2 . 20ppm 
nitrite 0.1 mg/l high ?
nitrate 50 to 100 mg/l high ?
phosphate 0.35
ph 7.4


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## george dicker

im gonna try and get my nitrate way down


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## ceg4048

george dicker said:


> decided to put up some parameters and could some one correct me what i should add or takeaway cheers
> co2 . 20ppm
> nitrite 0.1 mg/l high ?
> nitrate 50 to 100 mg/l high ?
> phosphate 0.35
> ph 7.4


Mostly all meaningless fantasy numbers that tell you nothing.




george dicker said:


> New
> im gonna try and get my nitrate way down


Which is the second worst thing you can possibly do. It's too bad you're not listening to the advice already given.

Cheers,


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## george dicker

most sites say that phos should be around 3 ppm mine 0.5, nitrate 10 ppm, mine 100ppm i have alot of adjustments to make


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## ceg4048

First of all, most sites are wrong.
Second of all, most test kits are wrong.
Truth is not democratic.

Here is a tank in which I personally added  over 100ppm of NO3 and over 10ppm of PO4.
Those numbers are not bogus test kit readings, like what you are reporting, they are what I added based on the weights of nutrient powders that were added to the tank on a weekly basis.


 

So the failure of your plants to grow cannot be attributed to your test kit readings.

The amount of adjustment you need to make is in unlearning all the horse manure you are being fed from "most sites".

Your CO2 is NOT fine.
Your flow and distribution is NOT fine.
Your tanks nutrient levels are NOT 100ppm NO3 or  0.5ppm PO4.
Your test kits are lying to you.
And that's why you are having difficulty.

I have absolutely no problems growing plants and I do exactly the opposite of what "most sites" say to do.
The posters in this thread giving you advice have all learned to disregard the data from "most sites" and to follow the path that leads to better plant health and growth.

Cheers,


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## george dicker

gimme your test readings then, so i can get plant growth like you, george


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## darren636

george dicker said:


> gimme your test readings then, so i can get plant growth like you, george



I doubt ceg tests.

If he did, I doubt your home test kit would be  sympatico. 
Stop measuring with the  test kit, use your eyes and experience gained so far and add full ei dosage.


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## george dicker

im sorry, i cant do that, ive been tweaking a long time and the only way im going to get my water right is testing, take a look at my last pic, thats with ei and co2 ?


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## parotet

george dicker said:


> im sorry, i cant do that, ive been tweaking a long time and the only way im going to get my water right is testing, take a look at my last pic, thats with ei and co2 ?


Hi George, what everyone is trying to explain to you is that tests are useless for your purposes. This is because their level of accuracy is low and they won't be able to give you any interesting information.. 

What you want is healthy plant growing in your glass cube... Ok, so you have enough light, but the filter turnover and the flow seem very poor. Have a look to other threads and you will find that most of us work with filters rated 10x the volume of the tank. This is because the filter output is measured by manufacturers without media and tubing. Some of them recognize that in operational conditions these values decrease by 50%. Afterwards you will need to manage this good filter turnover the best you can. The idea is to achieve a circular flow that is able to move gently all the plants in your tank and making sure there are no stagnant areas (quite difficult in corners, bottom front, bottom rear). There are plenty of ways to achieve this but a spraybar along the rear glass works fine (place it one inch under the water level with jets looking horizontally... If everything is ok with your filter, jets should hit the front glass)

As mentioned by other posters, water changes are extremely important as they reset the system getting rid of algae, spores, plant debris, etc. You need to change in a high tech at least 40% weekly to really say that you are changing water. In my case I do this twice a week. As you will read in this forum WCs are what you do more frequently and in larger volumes when things go wrong. In your case I would be changing 50% twice a week minimum until you find the way to healthy growing. WC only do good in your tank.

Another important thing is that plants don't really care about the water parameters you mention. Actually they can live in a very wide range of conditions unless you don't provide them with what they need. You (and most of us) are growing very easy plants, with no special chemistry requirements that in fact are weeds causing serious problems in some parts of the planet. They just need some very basic conditions to thrive... And this is light and food. EI dosing relies on that principle: you make sure the water column has enough (unlimited from the plant point of view) nutrients not to starve. It is very important to understand that algae blooms are not due to nutrients excess by itself but to a combination of issues, being one of the most important lack of co2 (the most limit ant nutrient) for the light you have, poor flow to deliver co2 where it is needed and lack of basic nutrients (NPK + microelements). Failure on all this leads to poor plant growth, and plant poor growth (death of plant cells) is one of the signals for algae spores to wake up and invade your tank.

This is why we are recommending you to save your money wasted on test kits that won't give much information on this very important issues described. Your eyes are much better to test how the flow is, how the light is, how the nutrients and co2 delivered are... Thus focus on better flow (you probably need to upgrade your filter), efficient co2 diffusion (bubbling co2 in the tank is not enough, look for dedicated tutorial) and good levels of nutrition (idem). All this, especially in that critical phase should be combined with very good tank husbandry. That's all you need. 

Jordi


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## george dicker

i appreciate the time u took to write this, thanks


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## george dicker

got sick of using my hefty tunze, this is way more sleak


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## george dicker

starting to get my rotala growing again.
this may sound like a stupid question, if I add potassium phosphate, is ther any chance it could mess with the nitrates


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## jart

"...mess with the nitrates"?
Not sure what you're asking. If you add potassium phosphate to a tank that is deficient in either potassium or phosphate, this could result in increased utilization of nitrates. 
But adding potassium phosphate won't directly increase or decrease the concentration of nitrate.


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## george dicker

this is what i wanted to know, the increased utilization of nitrates is interesting though, george


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## darren636

It hi


george dicker said:


> this is what i wanted to know, the increased utilization of nitrates is interesting though, george



It highlights how one mineral or metal can have a direct impact on the uptake of others.


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## george dicker

yea i got that, cheers


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## george dicker

i just tested my tap water and the nitrate reading was 100mg/l so yes i would say my test kits were lying, i might try some easier plants because i just cant get any to grow, i am resuming normal ferts for now


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## Martin in Holland

Still testing?....You better start taking advice that's been given to you, otherwise you will keep struggling. Clive (and others) showed you the way to keeping plants, the only thing you need to do is take them serious.


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## george dicker

im listening !!


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## faizal

ceg4048 said:


> First of all, most sites are wrong.
> Second of all, most test kits are wrong.
> Truth is not democratic........
> Your CO2 is NOT fine.
> Your flow and distribution is NOT fine.
> Your tanks nutrient levels are NOT 100ppm NO3 or  0.5ppm PO4.
> Your test kits are lying to you.
> And that's why you are having difficulty.
> 
> I have absolutely no problems growing plants and I do exactly the opposite of what "most sites" say to do.



LOL !!! I missed Clive's posts so much...it was like going back to school all over again...brings back wonderful memories...


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## Martin in Holland

faizal said:


> LOL !!! I missed Clive's posts so much...it was like going back to school all over again...brings back wonderful memories...


Clive was your teacher in school?....LOL


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

this is how i want my tank 0.5 mg/l phos 10 mg nitrate very low but superior plant growth


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## parotet

Wow, the tank in the video is amazing... Do you have more specs about it? I guess there is something more than just these nutrients levels for such a success. You can reach such a healthy growth with this levels of nutrients, probably with a bit less and surely with much more. Filtering, flow, lights and co2 will probably be much important.

Jordi


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## george dicker

yea, i dont think so, i read about a tank wiv no flow at all! just good parameters and the tank looked great, if you go on youtube you can find more info on the tank above


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## george dicker

i plan to get some malaysian trumpet snails next to aerate my substrate !


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## george dicker

added a powerhead to address the flow problem


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## george dicker

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/georgehdicker/_DSC3324_zps734c9b04.jpg


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## Martin in Holland

Your new powerhead seems to be facing in a wrong direction. For best results ALL pump/powerhead outlets should aim in one direction only.


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## george dicker

its on the right there, look ?


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## Martin in Holland

I can see it...but your other output is facing in another direction as the new one, this is counter effective.... If I'm not mistaken one output is from the back facing the front glass and the new one is facing left to right. Both should face into the same direction to have the effect your looking for.


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## george dicker

ok noted, cheers


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## george dicker

added a koralia 1600


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## george dicker




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## mlongpre

george dicker said:


> added a koralia 1600


Make sure it's pointed in the same way as the other outputs!


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk - now Free


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## george dicker

yes, it is


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## george dicker

thought id do an update, have added a few plants


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

as u can see my plants are struggling, even with the improved flow, i dont know whats up


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## Lindy

More co2 needed?


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## James O

george dicker said:


> yes, it is



Is your filter still on the back wall pushing water towards the front glass?


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## george dicker

no, its to the side, maybe more co2, ill try raising it


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## James O

Tbh George, I'd give up on hi tech tanks until you get the hang of lo tech.  Grasp the basics first.

There's plenty of lo tech tanks on here to inspire.


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## alto

george dicker said:


> as u can see my plants are struggling, even with the improved flow, i dont know whats up


I'll agree on this point - re I can't imagine why plant growth seems to struggle so much 

In comparison I have crap flow, low CO2 (Dicrossus began to show stress while other fish & shrimp were fine), erratic lighting & fertilizer (Tropica), Eco-Complete substrate (so not enriched) & plants at least look healthy, though growth is relatively slow - all plants are rated "easy" or "medium" by Tropica. I do 60% water changes once or twice weekly.

Kudos to you George for struggling on!
Is there a local aquarium club in your area, or a shop that has planted display tanks??? try to find local planted tanks that are doing well & talk to people.


I'd be inclined to plant heavily with "easy" stem plants (they are generally relatively cheap & more difficult to kill), 50% water change every 3-4 days, conservative water column fertilizers (need to replenish after each water change), 5-6 hours light, spray bar ... once everything is going well, try out some more challenging plants.


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## george dicker

this is good advice, ive started to get more easy plants and upped co2, do u think i should lower my light time then ?


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## george dicker

what would i need to change ? thanks to go lo tek


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## george dicker

hmm ok, what do u guys think about a strip down and try dirted for awhile ?


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## george dicker

what im doing now just isnt working and i dont even know why


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## alto

Do you have a local shop that you can work closely with?


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## george dicker

not really no


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## alto

If you want to go with distant advice, try to provide as much information as possible so that posters have the clearest possible picture of your set up.

Pedro Rosa just started a new journal, maybe use his Setup post as a guide.


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## george dicker

ive decided to try dirted , i will post a pic when its done


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## James O

Try simple lo tech to start. Grab yourself a few Anubias varieties, some Java ferns, maybe some moss, some stone and/or wood and make yourself a really good looking lo tech scape.  They feature in many, if no all of Amano's tanks


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## george dicker

im really not a fan of any of those plants stated, as i said  b4 what im doing now isnt working so if the plants i already have improve, ill know that dirting the tank worked, if not im royally screwed


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## James O

'Dirting' the tank?


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## george dicker

yea you know dustin, walstad, all that blahblahblahblah


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## Ryan Thang To

im with james on this one. your journal has lots of of up and down. you can have a easy low tech tank which i think its just a nice as a high tech. soil is fine or use the tropica soil capped with gravel.

here a quick picture of my tank. this one has been running nearly a year and its only had 10 water changes and that it. never had a to trim the plant or any fertiliser co2.

plants list

java fern
Anubias
fissiden moss
crypts
vallis
e tenellus
Sagittaria
frogbit











http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ryan-twin-aquanano.33329/


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## george dicker

ive just read a whole 20 page log and have a few ideas about rescuing my tank will post pics soon


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## george dicker

was very informative


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## george dicker

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/259l-bookcase-rebirth.19287/


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## george dicker

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/georgehdicker/_DSC3349_zpsufjhencl.jpg


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## george dicker

after raising my co2 im getting new shoots


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## george dicker

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/georgehdicker/_DSC3348_zpsbx0e4omb.jpg


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## george dicker

fts


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## george dicker

http://s66.photobucket.com/user/georgehdicker/media/_DSC3361_zpsfykaifvj.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1


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## george dicker

http://s66.photobucket.com/user/georgehdicker/media/_DSC3361_zpsfykaifvj.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

fts


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

more new growth yay


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## george dicker

my aquarium was, and still is doing ok but I have been over fertilizing for a long time, so when I checked my ppm it was at 964, is this too high and would this have adversely affected my tank


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## george dicker

fts


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## george dicker

co2 is probs about 30 mg/l


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## James D

The stem plants look a bit healthier George, hopefully they'll all take off soon.


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## george dicker

hope so


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## george dicker

ill get my tds down to about 300 and see ! excited


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

fts


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## James O

George old mate.  Um,  really, in all honestly......you've got to give up the hi tech stuff. 

In the time it's taken you to produce negligible growth with CO2, I've doubled the mass of the anubias in my low tech tank.

Give up on the bubbles bud.  Learn the low tech way


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## george dicker

I just had to get a few things under control, co2 was way down and I was overdosing ferts, things are perking up


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## James O




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## george dicker

erm okay...


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## george dicker

on paper it seems easy, ei, co2, high light and I have learnt quite a bit on how to get it right, and im doing ok, however, if was to revert to a low tek tank, it would not be much fun, im not putting down any of your tanks, I just feel that part of the enjoyment is in the challenge


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## george dicker




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## george dicker




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## george dicker




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## george dicker




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## george dicker

I know, please don't mention the state of my tank, anyway..... I got new bulbs, new diffuser, sleek ass drop checker and managed to get some red on my l aromatica


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## george dicker

also, I have an air pump coming, so I can run it at night to increase oxygen levels, bga related, oxygen is sposed to combat bga and new media, hopefully in a week I can show you a better looking tank


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## Crossocheilus

I respect that you want to persevere with, what I have also learnt recently, is a very difficult thing. You also seem to be getting some results now. You've still got a way to go, but if that's what you want to do, and you're willing to make more mistakes and potentially spend quite a lot to fix them, then keep trying.

Some specific advice:



george dicker said:


> new media



Are you talking about replacing all of your filter media? If so you would be removing all beneficial bacteria that convert toxic ammonia into semi-toxic nitrite into fairly harmless nitrate. This would be fairly catastrophic and would most likely lead to a lot of algae and dead fish. I am not aware of any specialist media that should fix bga, if that is what you mean.

Also the colour of you dc is a little dark, it may be okay for your lighting but I would recommend getting it to a lime green/yellow colour to be sure, just watch your fish for signs that CO2 is too high if you choose to increase it.

Good luck


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## george dicker

no no, just the ceramic rings as there is not enough in the filter tray, ok I will raise


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## george dicker

yellow, r u joking ?


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## Andy Thurston

george dicker said:


> yellow, r u joking ?


no! mines yellow too.
green is a safe level but you can push a little higher. my dc is the same colour as yours before the co2 comes on
keep an eye on fish, glowlines lose glow when co2 gets too much.


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## george dicker

hmm, I had a few fish deaths when I pushed it, ill see what lime greens saying


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## Andy Thurston

I think hang on DC reads a little higher because co2 concentration is a little higher at the top of the tank unless flow/circulation is fantastic. Just make sure your around to watch fish  when adding more co2
You look to have fairly good surface movement in your pics


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## george dicker

probably by accident since you cant really adjust the fluval 106


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## george dicker




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## george dicker




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## Rahms

I think playing with filter media is a bit of a red herring.  Your tank isn't heavily stocked at all (don't think any planted tanks are really), you're mainly using the 106 as a pump rather than a filter, and adding more ceramic things is going to lower your turnover. I've got a 206 with just a few sponges because I wanted more flow, and I think my tanks smaller than yours (60L).

And I think unless your tank is an absolute whirlpool, you're always going to get higher CO2 concentration that close to the surface, maybe try moving it lower down? I know its a fancy over-edge one, but I've seen people put them deeper using a spare sucker 

Pump looks snazzy! good luck


----------



## george dicker

well, as I am doing a lot of water changes, I was thinking the more nitrifying bacteria the better, so it can quickly convert ammonia


----------



## Rahms

george dicker said:


> well, as I am doing a lot of water changes, I was thinking the more nitrifying bacteria the better, so it can quickly convert ammonia



is there ammonia in your tapwater? Lots of water changes should mean you need less bacteria rather than more.  Unless you're seeing signs of ammonia in your tank, its just wasted effort (and flow)


----------



## george dicker

theres no ammonia no, but there is chlorine, so my thinking is that the chlorine could hold back the cycling


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

substrate b4 vaccuuming


----------



## Rahms

whats wrong with water conditioner? why fix a problem that doesnt exist (and potentially creating another in the process)

your new plant growth looks happy anyways, just seems to build up algae once it ages! probs just need to drop the light level a bit


----------



## george dicker

do you mean dechlorinator ?


----------



## george dicker

that is true, when my tankl was new, no algae problems what so ever


----------



## george dicker

have u got a reef


----------



## Rahms

yeah dechlorinator!

no reef for me, just a photo from an aquarium (as in, the big ones you visit)


----------



## george dicker

I should use ?


----------



## Rahms

for dealing with chlorine, yes


----------



## george dicker

yh, is not leaving it to air for 5 hours enough, generally curious ?


----------



## Rahms

no idea how long it needs, I just use prime. If you have chloramine rather than chlorine, no amount of time will gas it off


----------



## luckyjim

OK...so it sounds like your tank hasn't actually cycled the whole time you have been running it, if you have been adding chlorinated water every water change. No wonder you are having problems.

You definitely need to add water conditioner (de-chlorinator). Otherwise you are killing your filter bacteria each water change and your tank will be all over the place.

You certainly have perseverance, but maybe you should have another look at the basic guidelines for running a tank again as a refresher?


----------



## Julian

On the subject of de-chlorinator, how strict to do you have to be? Can you add it to the tank once the water has gone in?

I'm trying to make my water changes as hassle free as possible.


----------



## luckyjim

Julian - I used to be very strict on dechlorinating water first, before adding it to the tank. However, I have been advised by wiser heads than I that this isn't necessary. But I always add dechlorinator to the tank *first *just to make sure I don't forget! Also, presumably as soon as you add chlorinated water into the tank it will start attacking bacteria on the substrate/plants/hardscape, although I'm not sure how quickly it can have a deleterious effect. Discussion can be found here:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/do-you-add-any-substance-on-water-change-day.36549/


----------



## george dicker

id be gutted if this was the problem with my tankl all along


----------



## luckyjim

Well if it is, at least you have identified the root cause of the problem.  

You may have other factors at play as well, but I would suggest cycling the tank properly before trying to identify any other issues.

You seem to have fish in there though - how long do they seem to survive? Have you introduced shrimp before and if so, how long did they last?


----------



## george dicker

my fish seem to stay alive, shrimps not


----------



## luckyjim

Shrimp tend to be pretty sensitive to water quality (i.e. nitrites and ammonia), so that would indicate that your tank has indeed not cycled properly. Fish can often survive poor quality water, but they will be suffering and will have reduced lifespans and be more prone to disease.

I would start dechlorinating your water religiously. Also, if you can get hold of some filter media from an established tank, add that to your own filter media. Still might take some time though.

I am not an expert on all this George, others may have an opinion, but as I said you should probably re-read the basics to make sure you aren't missing any other key elements to keeping an aquarium.


----------



## george dicker

I know the basics, just didn't think of the chloramines


----------



## luckyjim

To be fair George, leaving out for 5 hours is not enough anyway, at least 24 is recommended if you are going down that route. Also, water conditioner removes heavy metals, not just chloramine. I'm not having a go, there is a lot to take in when trying to get your tank right! I tend to go back and re-read stuff anyway just to make sure I am not making any howlers.


----------



## george dicker

alright, cheers


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

why is my psi so low ? just got this from co2 art


----------



## Andy Thurston

have you turned the big blue knob clock wise. or do you mean the contents psi?


----------



## george dicker

im checking for leaks, shouldn't the psi on the first gauge be higher


----------



## george dicker

solenoid not plugged in


----------



## Andy Thurston

oooops?


----------



## george dicker

no, when testing for leaks on the first gauge, the solenoids not meant to be plugged in


----------



## george dicker




----------



## Rahms

left gauge is your set pressure, increase it with the blue knob (won't be able to decrease it without letting the gas out)


----------



## george dicker

ok, that's useful thanks


----------



## Andy Thurston

when you say first gauge do you mean the high pressure(contents) one or the low pressure one(set/working)


----------



## george dicker

the first gauge from the bottle, I think is high pressure, then we have the working ? correct ?


----------



## Andy Thurston

george dicker said:


> the first gauge from the bottle, I think is high pressure, then we have the working ? correct ?


yes I thought it seemed low at room temp it should be around 8/900 its not running out or very cold is it?


----------



## george dicker

8/900 could you elaborate, cheers


----------



## Andy Thurston

800-900 psi in a warm room


----------



## george dicker

it might be running out, the hp gauge is still just below 500


----------



## george dicker

so tell me, what psi on the high pressure gauge would a full cylinder show ?


----------



## mlongpre

About 900-1000 on my tanks.


----------



## Rahms

did you fully open the valve on top of the gas bottle?


----------



## george dicker

yes


----------



## george dicker

got my prime, it says add 5ml per 200 ltrs,, that seems like not a lot a t all


----------



## george dicker

also my bubble counter seems to be losing pressure, don't know whats up


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

here is the layout


----------



## Rahms

george dicker said:


> also my bubble counter seems to be losing pressure, don't know whats up



how so?  the bubbles will go much faster when you first start it up, as there's a big pressure gradient across it.  once the whole line pressurises, flow slows down

for the prime, yeah its really concentrated, thats why its so cost effective! I got some 3ml pipettes off amazon for about 85p, never bothered trying to measure one thread in the cap...


----------



## george dicker

I hope so, every few hours it slows down, don't know whats up


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

just done a trim, co2 is lime green, been dechlorinating after each water change for 3 days


----------



## luckyjim

Good work George. It may take a couple of weeks or so for the filter to fully cycle, but I would avoid doing any fiddling for a while. My only other suggestion would be to splash out on a few more plants, so as to try and soak up excess ammonia and nitrites and start the fightback against algae.


----------



## george dicker

noted, I don't really have much algae, just a cyano problem


----------



## george dicker

a few weeks, can anyone else chime in on how long you think it will take for the bacteria to accumulate ?


----------



## mlongpre

About a month to cycle.


----------



## luckyjim

Remember, if you get hold of some filter media from an established tank, or even some hardscape or plants from one, it will speed the process up a lot.


----------



## sonicninja

Just read some of this thread. Just so you know George I too have that CO2 art gauge/reg and the right hand pressure dial always read approx 500psi. Ive had 4 full bottles attached too it and it always read that figure from full. I did report this to CO2 art and i think they decided it was just an issue with that gauge, it should still function normally. Mine stays pretty steady at 500psi and starts to drop suddenly indicating that you'll need to change the bottle.

Good luck!


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

good to know thanks, still getting blue green algae, this picture is after I siphoned out most of it, also my water is ever so slightly cloudy, this could be a bacteria bloom right ?


----------



## george dicker

if you look at the last picture then this one the plants look bushier which is a good sign


----------



## george dicker

*What is a Bacterial Bloom?There are 2 types of bacteria at work in our tanks:-

Autotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria capable of synthesizing its own food from inorganic substances, using light or chemical energy. Our beneficial filter bacteria are autotrophs.

Heterotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria that cannot synthesize its own food and is dependent on complex organic substances for nutrition. The heterotrophs in our aquariums mineralise the organic waste (break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter etc into ammonia).

Contrary to popular belief, it is commonly the heterotrophs which are seen in our bacterial blooms, not our trusted autotroph nitrifiers.

It is the heterotrophs which are primarily responsible for creating the "bio-film" (slimy residue found on the tank walls and ornaments) which builds up in our aquariums.

The heterotrophs are generally bigger than the autotrophs and therefore don't attach themselves to surfaces with the same ease. They also reproduce much more quickly. Heterotrophs can reproduce in around 15 - 20 minutes, whereas autotrophs can take up to 24 hours to reproduce.

In a newly set-up aquarium, the heterotrophs get to work quicker than the autotrophs, causing the 'cycling bloom' we so often see. Blooms are almost certainly heterotrophic if they are caused by a build up of organic waste in the substrate, which most, if not all, are.

Bacterial blooms are common in tanks with apparently no organics present (for example, where all that is in the tank is water and ammonia for a fishless cycle). This is caused by the dechlorination of the water suddenly enabling the water to support bacterial populations. The heterotrophs immediately get to work on the organics in the water itself. The severity of the bloom and even whether a bloom happens at all is dependant upon the level of organics contained in the water supply.

Our autotroph nitrifiers are strictly aerobic (require oxygen), but the heterotrophs can be facultative anaerobic (they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic function depending on their environment). Therefore the heterotrophs in the substrate will be in their anaerobic state and breaking down the organic waste into ammonia, but if they bloom up into the water column, they will switch to their aerobic form and will start to convert the ammonia back to nitrite, although very inefficiently. The heterotrophs are around 1,000,000 times less efficient at ammonia oxidisation than our beneficial autotrophs as the heterotrophs are not true nitrifiers.
*


----------



## luckyjim

Sounds like you worked that question out for yourself George. Should be a sign that the changes are taking effect, hopefully in a few weeks your tank will be in a position to put some shrimp in, and hopefully you'll see improvements in general


----------



## karla

Please do not take this as a criticism, I have noticed in a lot of your pictures your hardware appears to be very dirty, with many days growth of algae and detritus on them. It helps greatly I believe to maintain the hardware in the best condition possible, this may not stop your algae, but allow no place for it to flourish unchecked. Especially hardware where it is much easier to clean than plants themselves.
Your plants are improving though, perhaps some more plant mass is needed?


----------



## george dicker

I clean the powerhead regularly, but the filter outlet is unacceptable , that is bba, when I go to the fish shop ill get a sae


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

the tank is even more cloudy, and the cyano is more present, hopefully the tank is just getting worse before it gets better


----------



## Sacha

Your tank is far too small for SAE. They need at least a 3 foot when they are fully grown, and should be kept in groups of 3 minimum. My 125 was not big enough for them, and your 60 is less than half the size.


----------



## george dicker

what else eats bba


----------



## Sacha

A healthy tank


----------



## Andy Thurston

scissors


----------



## bajiaz

Take the filter outlet out and clean it with a brush. I just did that to my jbl outlet. should take you about 5 minutes.


----------



## Sk3lly

Sacha said:


> A healthy tank


Completely agree. Better tank cleaning needed for a start


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

cleaned the inlet, you could see if the tank wasn't so cloudy


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

the cloudiness progresses


----------



## mlongpre

Keep doing water changes. Also, it appears the filter output is on the back wall facing forward, am I correct with this? I believe it should be pointing the same way as the powerhead. Or wise-versa.


----------



## george dicker

ok, noted


----------



## James O

george dicker said:


> ok, noted



Somehow I doubt that.  You have been alerted to this issue 4 times before in posts 93, 95, 99 & 105 starting nov 2014 (6 months ago ), dec 2014 and Feb 2015.  We're now on post 244 in apr 2015 and it's just been pointed out to you AGAIN


----------



## luckyjim

I think when he says "noted", he means "thanks, but I am going to ignore this advice."

I don't mean to be condescending, but this is a fascinating experiment in gradually trying to lead someone through the basics of having a functioning tank. You have to have a sneaking admiration for George's sheer stubbornness in the face of the advice given to him by the various experts on this forum!


----------



## george dicker

noted means after that question, I looked and moved the nozzle, cheers....


----------



## george dicker

I know no dechlorinator was a rookie error, but hopefully this cycle will take effect, and ill keep posting


----------



## mlongpre

Please do keep posting george. I really would like to see this tank turn around.


----------



## luckyjim

Apologies George, no offence intended, I am also a rookie. I think you can make this tank work, I still think you should bite the bullet though and buy some more plants to increase the healthy mass in the tank. I think for beginners that is often the forgotten part of the equation with all the emphasis on flow, co2, EI, etc. Those are obviously crucial, but I suspect the minimalist style tanks you see a lot of experienced aquarists succeeding with are very unforgiving unless you have everything spot on. If you have more plants you have more of a buffer against mistakes, and more chance against algae.

Keep on persevering!


----------



## Sacha

Keep going George! We believe in you!


----------



## vauxhallmark

Come on, mister, if you want to grow plants, get some plants in the tank!

Fill up all that empty space with a keen growing plant, perhaps Hygrophilia polsperma? Keep whacking in the ferts at at least the recommended doses, make sure you've got plenty of co2, change 50% of the water per week, and watch the plants. If there is a centimetre or more between the pairs of leaves on the HS increase co2 and fertilisers. When these plants are growing well, start to worry about more demanding plants.

Have you been told or read that large areas if your tank should have no plants in them? I'd love to hear where!

Re read the advice you've been sent, get some cheap hardy plants, fill your tank with them, watch them and learn from them!!

Wishing you all the best! Please let me know if anything I said was unclear/you have any questions.

Mark


----------



## george dicker

thanks mark, wioll do


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

hopefully this will clear soon, shall I up water changes or leave it to clear


----------



## george dicker

I will! lol


----------



## James O

I do hope you're not keeping fish in that......


----------



## alto

It just looks to be "green water" - unsightly, frustrating (even crazy-making at times) but fish generally fare just fine ... even in the "pea soup" version
If you turned off the filters it would be more of an issue but then many fish that we keep are rather dependent on the filter flow even in clear waters.


----------



## luckyjim

Put some daphnia in there, they will love it!


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Hi George
Shame the tank is not going toward as plan. If i was you i would start again. New plants substrate like tropica capped with any gravel and maybe some equipment. Looking at the filter i don't think its up to the job. You need something like a eheim pro 600, ehiem 2217 or even a fluval 406. Place your inlet and outlet on one side of the tank with the powerhead facing the same way for extra flow if needed.

I have the same tank in my garage haven't got time to set it up yet. Its not a big tank so you don't need to spend a lot on things.

You can buy a lot of plants and do a jungle style or get some rocks for hardscape. Good thing is the tank is small so its easy to rescape if you get bored. Stay with the easy plants and then if you think that its too easy or it grow too fast then just take that plant out put more demanding plant in like hc or glosso. Stick with easy and medium and if you like to try a carpet plant do e tenellus, super easy or monte carlo. A little harder but if it grow well it will let you know your on the right track

Don't use the plants you all ready have because i find it very hard to save them once it's all covered in algae. I always think once there algae in the tank its not easy to remove all of it unless you know how to deal with it.

i see you live in north finchley. I drive past every weekend to london so if you like one weekend i can help you out.

I like to help as i remember when i first started off with high tech i brought a 3ft tank and 15 pot hc which you should know it got covered in nice brown green algae lol.

Big thanks to big clown for all the years of advices his giving to me. Made me understand a lot.

Anyways here a journal of me and my mate last year. Have a read and see how he beat the algae problem he had when he return back from holiday. Most people would shut this tank down in this case so don't give up ok.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/vaz-and-ryan-juwel-rio-125.35205/

cheers
Ryan


----------



## george dicker

thanks for the long post, money is an issue as im building a bike but ill get some plants next time im at a fish shop, as for now im doing water changes every day to clear this green tint


----------



## Rahms

I wouldn't go as extreme as starting again! You could pull all those plants out, clear the algae from them and the substrate and then replant within an hour. It looks like its all cyano, which will come off plants if you just gently swill them in a bucket, or even use your fingers (carefully!).  The substrate should be pretty easy too.

I'd wait until after the water clears up though.

and your powerhead is STILL not pointing the right way. I think you're misunderstanding "pointing the same way."  People don't mean point it so that the water jets collide. They mean the water should all be moving in one direction.  So put your powerhead on the same piece of glass as your outlet, and point it to the front of the tank, like the outlet.


----------



## george dicker

yes, the filter outlet and powerhead is  facing the same way, thanks


----------



## JamieB

From what people are saying you need to do the following:





Move that outlet so it's on the SAME piece of glass as the power head.

Or as the post by Rahms move it the opposite way so the powerhead moves next to the outlet, I'd think my picture would work better as that seems to be how most people go? Must be a reason why


----------



## mlongpre

You have a uv filter/light of some kind? That will do away with your green algae. Or maybe you could rent one from someone since it doesn't take very long to clear up once you have one running...and aren't generally needed with a planted tank.


----------



## Rahms

george dicker said:


> yes, the filter outlet and powerhead is  facing the same way, thanks



they aren't.  They're pointing to the same place. We're saying point them in the same direction. eg. imagine a person in edinburgh and london.  If they both point at manchester, they're pointing to the same place (like you have), but if they're both pointing south, they're pointing in the same direction.

edit: basically what jamie said! _same piece of glass_


----------



## george dicker

this is an old picture, I will post a new one soon, cheers


----------



## sonicninja

George, where are you based? Maybe there is an experienced forum member nearby who could come and take a look at your tank and give you some pointers? Sometimes its difficult to explain some technical aspects without being there in person...?


----------



## george dicker

no, its ok I don't let anyone in my flat, funny thing is plant growth has exploded, yet it is still cloudy ? ridiculous


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Turn off the light for 2days and do 50 to 70% water change. Im sure it would help loads if not then you filter is not cycle yet. 

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## george dicker

did an 80 percent water change and I can only just see the filter outlet, I miss not being able to see in my tank


----------



## Sacha

Got a pic?


----------



## luckyjim

Btw, how much/how often do you feed your fish?


----------



## george dicker

at the moment not often cause of the bloom, normally every day


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

last pic is last week, one before is today


----------



## Sacha

Man that is one hell of an algae bloom. Impressive.

I'm sure this has been asked before, but is your tank in direct sunlight? Or under a 10,000 watt football pitch floodlight? Anything like that that we might have missed up to now?


----------



## george dicker

no, im sure it was brought on because I wasn't dechlorinating for such a long time, so it was such a shock to the system when I started, that's what I want to believe any way


----------



## george dicker

2 t5s


----------



## Ryan Thang To

2x t5 is too much for that amount of plant you in there


----------



## Sacha

Green water algae blooms are not triggered by dechlorinator. Green water is caused primarily by excess light, and excess waste products. 

This is what I think you should do. Do a large (75%) water change. Black out the tank completely (turn lights off, and cover the tank entirely in a blanket!) Don't feed the fish. Totally forget about the tank until at least Friday. No feeding, no lights, no peeking. Leave the blanket on the tank. 

Then over the weekend (Saturday or Sunday), do another large water change (50-75%), and turn the lights back on. Consider removing one of the T5 tubes so you are just using one. Run the lights for 6 hours a day, maximum. Feed the fish 4 times a week, no more than this. They'll be fine. 

When you do your large water changes, try to match the temperature of the new water to the tank water temperature as best you can, so you don't shock the fish. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Christos Ioannou

Sacha said:


> Then over the weekend (Saturday or Sunday), do another large water change (50-75%), and turn the lights back on.


Maybe add a thorough filter cleanup in the agenda?


----------



## imak

I'm guessing he will not do anything you're suggesting.  Many people already told him to change the position of the filter outlet,  he said he did but last picture proves him wrong.


----------



## sonicninja

I pretty much agree with everyone one here. Having said that given how the tank has progressed I would start again if this were me (im pretty fickle having said that 

Mentally, starting over again might be worth your while George. There is absolutely loads of really useful info on this forum if you take the time to research properly before you start I'm sure you can improve this tank. Considering you haven't got a huge plant mass in the tank I don't think you're set to loose much. 

If it were me I drain the tank, re-house the fish (are there any?), chuck the plants, rinse the substrate, thoroughly clean the filter and start again using the numerous filter cycling tutorials and threads on this forum. 

I know how hard this can be. My tank looked awful when i started and by the time I finished wasn't the best by a long stretch but if you follow everyone's advice you'll hit the jackpot!

Read into power-head/filter output methods and flow diagrams and adapt your tank before you rush into buying plants too as it still looks like you can improve on your current layout. 

This is just my advice but sometimes wiping the slate clean is a worthwhile strategy


----------



## Ryan Thang To

sonicninja said:


> I pretty much agree with everyone one here. Having said that given how the tank has progressed I would start again if this were me (im pretty fickle having said that
> 
> Mentally, starting over again might be worth your while George. There is absolutely loads of really useful info on this forum if you take the time to research properly before you start I'm sure you can improve this tank. Considering you haven't got a huge plant mass in the tank I don't think you're set to loose much.
> 
> If it were me I drain the tank, re-house the fish (are there any?), chuck the plants, rinse the substrate, thoroughly clean the filter and start again using the numerous filter cycling tutorials and threads on this forum.
> 
> I know how hard this can be. My tank looked awful when i started and by the time I finished wasn't the best by a long stretch but if you follow everyone's advice you'll hit the jackpot!
> 
> Read into power-head/filter output methods and flow diagrams and adapt your tank before you rush into buying plants too as it still looks like you can improve on your current layout.
> 
> This is just my advice but sometimes wiping the slate clean is a worthwhile strategy


Yep. That what my advice at the first but George said he working on his bike so money is a problem.


----------



## Andy Thurston

sonicninja said:


> If it were me I drain the tank, re-house the fish (are there any?), chuck the plants, rinse the substrate, thoroughly clean the filter and start again using the numerous filter cycling tutorials and threads on this forum.


 
We don't really cycle filters here, we just plant heavily and look after the plants, then in 4-6 weeks if the plants are healthy, the tank will be safe to start stocking. I don't see the problem.
you could try putting floss in your filter for week and see if it helps clear the water.
other than that I'm not going to offer anymore help on this thread because its just going round in circles. good advice is given and then ignored.


----------



## sonicninja

legytt said:


> Yep. That what my advice at the first but George said he working on his bike so money is a problem.



I dont' see any additional costs other than some plants, im sure there's somewhere here with a load of hygrophilia they can donate...?


----------



## Rahms

I said before I'd just pull out the plants, clean them and the substrate, and replant. Is this what people mean by restart? Restart sounds quite dramatic, but a proper clean will only take an hour or two.



Sacha said:


> Green water algae blooms are not triggered by dechlorinator. Green water is caused primarily by excess light, and excess waste products.



I'd definitely agree that he's clearly got too much light, 2 T5s is a lot.  But given that chlorine kills stuff, isn't it possible that its the reason he didn't have an algae bloom until now?


----------



## george dicker

yes rahms definitely, I think


----------



## Sacha

Highly possible that the chlorine was preventing the spores from developing, but the green water shouldn't be there in the first place unless you're doing something fundamentally wrong with lighting and/or feeding. 

What's he suggesting anyway? Going back to not using dechlorinator in the hope to stop the algal bloom?


----------



## luckyjim

To be fair to George, he knows that he needs to dechlorinate now. The trouble is that, whilst his tank was struggling before, it was at least relatively stable. The recent dechlorination just appears to have revealed how fundamentally unbalanced the tank set up is by allowing the green water bloom.

George, I think you need to bite the bullet mate and just give the tank and its contents a thorough clean, as Rahms and sonicninja suggested. When you switch everything back on, remove one of your lighting units - you can always put this back on once the tank has grown in and you have enough plant mass to justify it. 

And, for the love of all that is holy, take everyone's advice and reposition the filter outlet!!!


----------



## nelly9

I think " George Dicker" is really George Farmer's alter ego and only posts to cause pain and rage amongst those that offer advice.

Cheers then,
Neil


----------



## Sacha

For a while I thought it was Clive trolling us. Since George Dicker appeared around the same time that Clive went AWOL.


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Sacha said:


> For a while I thought it was Clive trolling us. Since George Dicker appeared around the same time that Clive went AWOL.


Might even be clive you know hahaha


----------



## Ryan Thang To

I was the first to say start again but some members said that to extreme and now everyone is saying it. Like i said George i can help if you like.

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## luckyjim

I guess it depends what you mean by 'start again'...I mean he only actually has a few plants, and no hardscape. He just needs to take everything out, give it a thorough clean, and put it back in again.

That is one of several things George can do  that don't cost any money and will give his remaining plant and fish stock a fighting chance. The other key ones are aligning the powerhead and filter output, and removing one of his t5s. When he can get hold of more plants that should help as well.

There are probably other issues (e.g. has George mentioned any sort of micro-nutrient dosing yet?), but until he fixes the flow and lighting he has no chance.


----------



## Sacha

Does George actually have fish?


----------



## luckyjim

Yes, he appears to have some fish that look like a variety of tetra. Re-reading the thread, he had some shrimp but they died pretty quickly.


----------



## george dicker

april fools haha


----------



## george dicker

I do have fish yes, 2 neons, a tetra and a harlequin


----------



## george dicker

ok, so I repositioned the outlet and are upping the water changes to double and reduced the photoperiod to 4 hours


----------



## george dicker

I am dosing micros yes


----------



## george dicker

I really think dechlorinating was the main issue, had set up a good ei schedule, co2 is lime green, and now I can see that the plants are exploding, all points to chlorine being the culprit


----------



## John S

If I was you George, now you have adjusted the filter outlet, I would take Sacha's advice and do a black out. Then when you restart your tank start with 4 hours lighting with only 1 T5 if possible.


----------



## Sacha

Chlorine isn't the culprit George. The culprit is too much lighting and improper tank maintenance. Chlorine was simply covering up the underlying problems you had, so when you eliminated the chlorine, you could see what was really wrong with your tank.

Think about it this way. If you had a dead body under your floorboards causing your house to stink of rotting flesh, would you just soak the carpet in bleach every morning so that the chlorine would cover up the smell? Or would you rip the floorboards up and get rid of the rotting carcass?

Rip the floorboards up George. Start again from scratch. That's the best advice I can offer.


----------



## george dicker

but the lighting, ferts and co2 should be in balance, and you say improper tank maintenance, but I was doing 50 percent once a week, cheers


----------



## Sacha

Go for the bleach option then if you prefer!


----------



## John S

george dicker said:


> but the lighting, ferts and co2 should be in balance, and you say improper tank maintenance, but I was doing 50 percent once a week, cheers



But your tank is telling you that your lights, ferts and Co2 are not in balance. Tank maintenance is not just changing water. It's about keeping the glass clean, cleaning filter pipes (internal) and the external parts in the tank. Rinsing off the filter media occasionally with tank water. Cleaning the Co2 diffuser. Removing any visible algae by hand if possible. Wafting you water syphon over the top of the substrate to remove and dirt / waste etc.


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Sacha said:


> Go for the bleach option then if you prefer!


I wish i can do the bleach option. It would be a lot easier lol


----------



## Rahms

I've seen people complain of algae blooms in new tanks before, it's certainly not proof that he needs to restart. Whatever issue(s) may be present, I don't see how restarting is going to get rid of them?

He's decided to reduce his light, so wait and see!


----------



## george dicker

thank you rahms, I do need a supporter


----------



## Sacha

We are all supporting you George, that's why we're still bothering to give advice after 312 posts, even after you ignored all of the advice given to you previously...


----------



## george dicker

ok, I don't think im going to comment until my tank is doing well so this is my last post


----------



## James D

Best of luck with it then George, hopefully we'll see you back soon.


----------



## Rahms

can't say I blame you!  But obviously if you get stuck, do still ask for advice.  Good luck


----------



## luckyjim

Good luck George, hope you rescue the tank and post up some pics


----------



## Sacha

Farewell!


----------



## george dicker

ill be back when things improve, cheers


----------



## James O

Noted


----------



## george dicker

hi, im back, I decided to strip and rebuild, took all the water out rinsed the substrate andreplaced the water


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## James O

Look at the powerhead!  The flippin' powerhead STILL isn't pushing in the same direction as the filter 

Gets straight jacket and starts mumbling about flow..........


----------



## Sacha

LOL George you nutter


----------



## sonicninja

george dicker said:


> ill be back when things improve, cheers





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rahms

time to go low tech matey. Walk before you can run. With high tech there are simply more variables to worry about, and guessing clearly isn't working (what if there are two issues? you might see no improvement even if you fix your flow)... and how bright does that reef go?


Not sure why people are being so smug either


----------



## Sacha

After 320 posts, he still hasn't turned his powerhead around.


----------



## george dicker

haha just wait till it clears youll see


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

as you can see the powerhead and filter outlet are pointing in the same direction


----------



## Ryan Thang To

its not lol. can you show us please?


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

I hope this is the silt still settling


----------



## Ryan Thang To

you would get dead spot on that right corner where there no flow


----------



## george dicker

right, if it doesn't clear this time, ill have to try uv


----------



## george dicker

really ? I should move my filter outlet ?


----------



## luckyjim

On the plus side your marine nano looks lovely George


----------



## george dicker

cheers


----------



## Ryan Thang To

This is a example of my tank. You see outlet and inlet are on the left side moving to the right and then going around giving you a circle flow. Notice you see My eheim pointing where the flow is flowing. 

I hope that helps.


 

Cheers
Ryan


----------



## Rahms

Rahms said:


> I think you're misunderstanding "pointing the same way." People don't mean point it so that the water jets collide. They mean the water should all be moving in one direction. So put your powerhead on the same piece of glass as your outlet, and point it to the front of the tank, like the outlet.




Think of it like a compass. Both of your water outflows should have the same angle on a compass.  You've got one going west and one going south...


----------



## george dicker

I cant go low tech, what counts as low tech any way, getting lower light, and not using co2 or ferts, hmmm......... if this doesn't work or my uv sterilizer, then ill listen, it goes pretty bright yes


----------



## luckyjim

It sounds like you understand what everyone is urging you to do with the powerhead, why not just go for it? It will take literally 30 seconds.


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

that quick enough


----------



## george dicker

feels abit cramped now


----------



## george dicker

nice tank btw


----------



## Ryan Thang To

put the diffuser under the powerhead so it would get suck in and spread around the tank. that would be best


----------



## Rahms

legytt said:


> put the diffuser under the powerhead so it would get suck in and spread around the tank. that would be best



best spot is on the opposite wall (...at the bottom) where the flow is travelling down!


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Rahms said:


> best spot is on the opposite wall (...at the bottom) where the flow is travelling down!


that would be just fine. try in different ways and see which one is best. George when you changes things around leave it for 2 weeks before you make another change if your are not happy. try to leave it and see if it working. things don't change just like that or else this hobby would be too easy haha


----------



## Ryan Thang To

george dicker said:


> feels abit cramped now


but it look better don't you think


----------



## george dicker

ill leave it where it is then, cheers


----------



## luckyjim

Now you just need to get a decent quantity of plants in there feller!


----------



## luckyjim

I will send you some ludwiga 'rubin' clippings if you promise not to change the powerhead back


----------



## george dicker

were not there yet lucky jim


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

did a restart, rinsed substrate in a bucket, 100 percent water change, put everything back, aaaaaand were back to cloudy, so it looks like ill be buying this


----------



## george dicker

http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...rium-internal-filter-700l-h-with-9w-uv-700if/


----------



## mlongpre

george dicker said:


> http://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/a...rium-internal-filter-700l-h-with-9w-uv-700if/


That should help out for sure.


----------



## James O

How long is your light on for! Are you addng fertilisers?


----------



## Sacha

100% water change. Are there fish in this tank or not George?


----------



## george dicker

4 hours in the morning and 4 hours at night


----------



## george dicker

ei dry ferts, yes there is fish


----------



## Ryan Thang To

What is the reason for 4 hour on and 4 hours later?


----------



## James O

george dicker said:


> 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours at night



8hrs photoperiod is a long time for the small amount of plant mass.  Your probably just growing algae.


----------



## george dicker

I like having my aquarium on at night, I go to bed pretty late


----------



## JamieB

Why not try the night period only and see if that helps the algae production to stop


----------



## george dicker

ill give it a shot, but im highly speculative that it will work at all


----------



## george dicker

uv sterilizer is supposed to be pretty good, im just worried that it will keep killing the bacteria and it will be a vicious circle


----------



## Sacha

Are the fish alive?


----------



## george dicker

yes, all 4 lol


----------



## Rahms

the bacteria that you want mostly lives on surfaces, its not really floating about.  UV shouldn't affect it.

two light periods with a large gap in the middle is really weird. Some people will have a 2 hour siesta or something, but a large gap? you need to stop freestyling lol


----------



## sonicninja

george dicker said:


> ill give it a shot, but im highly speculative that it will work at all


George, given that almost everything you've done so far hasn't worked don't you think it would be a good idea to try what people are suggesting?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## george dicker

I am @sonicninja. good to know rahms thanks, it is kind of strange yes, but the night time is when Im most active and that's when I like to see things in the tank


----------



## James O

george dicker said:


> ill give it a shot, but im highly speculative that it will work at all



There are always Bactria in the tank.  With no plant mass they have very little competition for the tnks finite resources, and you get a bloom..  This can even happen in tanks with loads of plant but lighting has to be pretty extreme.  In an empty tank with so much light (8hrs) and 2 blooms within a couple of weeks, something is obviously out of balance.

4hrs in the evening will be fine.  Get more plants(free offer previously) and turn the lighting up slowly _once you understand more fully_


----------



## Rahms

george dicker said:


> I am @sonicninja. good to know rahms thanks, it is kind of strange yes, but the night time is when Im most active and that's when I like to see things in the tank



absolutely fine to have your light schedule different to whats going on outside so by all means keep it on at night, just dont have it on in the morning as well!


----------



## george dicker

ok, I keep my light on 4 hours at night and keep with my usual routine


----------



## george dicker

where are you based james o


----------



## banthaman.jm

Hi George, I have just read the entire journal (took some time...) I would just like to say that i admire you for not giving up 

I'm going to comment on your lighting period, 4 hrs in the evening will work well for you, it does in my tank but you might need to drop the intensity of your lights as well.  I had algae problems in my tank and reducing the amount and duration worked really well.  When the plants start to grow at an improved rate, which will happen, the photo period can be extended and the intensity raised.

Another bit of advise would be for you to increase the frequency of your water changes to daily or every other day, 50 - 70% would help you out no end.  The equipment in your tank still looks as though it could do with being cleaned more often as it seems to have algae on it  in every picture.

The tank really could do with more plants which would also help you out, you can get some good cheap quick growing plants in bulk from Ebay, here is a link for you http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/live-aquarium-plants

Another product i have used and will again if i have an algae outbreak is liquid carbon, i have used this at x3 dose.

Good luck with your tank, i have my fingers  crossed for you.

Jim


----------



## george dicker

cheers jim, my co2 is dialled in at lime green, so carbon isn't an issue, (don't know if liquid carbon is some sort of magic cure) yes I have used these ebay plant stores, they are very good value for money, thx for taking the time to read my abysmal, but maybe educational trainwreck of a journal

G


----------



## banthaman.jm

Hey George,

Liquid co2 can be used as an algaecide by overdosing the aquarium, as I said I use it at x2.5 - x3 the stated dose to great effect.  My direct action of mechanical removal of algae using a tooth brush, daily 50-70% water change, the use of liquid co2, reduction of photoperiod and intensity and making sure that I had good flow ( changed filter output to spraybar) around the tank worked for me.  

I have very minimal algae in the tank now and have increased photo period and intensity to 6hrs and gone back to 70% weekly water change with no adverse effects, if I start to see algae coming back I will again reduce the lighting.

For me this is the list of what I feel is the most important things I do to have a healthy tank....
1. Regular large volume water change, or lower volume more frequent water change.
2. Make sure that all equipment is cleaned when it needs it.
3. Lighting, co2 & EI equilibrium 
4. Flow, I did not appreciate how important this was
The above are not in a specific order as they go hand in hand for a health algae free tank.

If you have anymore question feel free to ask, I'm not an expert but this works for me.

Jim


----------



## george dicker

I agree, equipment cleaning is v.important and makes you feel good after its done because it can be abit of a hassle
G


----------



## george dicker

and the others aswell


----------



## banthaman.jm

Hey George, how's things with the tank?
Jim


----------



## george dicker

if you look to the last picture, its exactly the same, im just waiting to order my uv steriliser


----------



## Rahms

george dicker said:


> if you look to the last picture, its exactly the same, im just waiting to order my uv steriliser



if you haven't ordered yet, I wouldn't bother. I've seen barely anyone here using one, it's just not necessary. Need to keep focusing on the fundamentals to work out what's wrong! Like the light and the dechlorinator


----------



## george dicker

really ! that's actually quite surprising, ive heard only good things about uv sterilisers


----------



## george dicker

as im bored, im going to guide you through my water change process


----------



## Rahms

I've got some work to do but I look forward to reading tomorrow


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

a lot clearer, but alas, it will not last


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Like i said george i don't think your filter is up to the job. I can see by the water coming out of your outlet.


----------



## george dicker

http://www.fluvalaquatics.com/ca/product/A202-106-canister-filter/#.VU_zzGd0yUkyoure right, its not


----------



## george dicker

youre right


----------



## JamieB

I've always been advised that you should go for quite a bit more filter than they are quoted for so I generally think to double the size of my tank in filtration capacity.

So by that idea, your filter is only suitable for a 50l tank despite saying 100l.

One of these would do the trick but you may be able to get an Eheim, used, on the forum for cheaper/similar money
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/All-Pond-...t=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item2edd6ddb30

I think we can all agree that we're with you for the long haul on this one George, stick with it and so will we... It'll look great once all the kinks are ironed out. Additionally it'll be a great tool for beginners to learn from as there is a wealth of knowledge already in this thread and I for one have learnt a lot.


----------



## banthaman.jm

Morning George,

Thank you for the water change pics.  I would like to offer some advise on water changes...  Try turning off you filter the next time you do one as it might be stirring up some detritus from your substrate, not saying it will help, but it might.  I would also take out another 25% of the water and slowly diffuse the new water going into the tank.  Could you post some pics of your in tank equipment tonight, the powerhead looks as though it still has algae on it along with the filter outlet and inlet.  Until the algae issue starts to improve i would also do as many water changers as you can possibly do, one a day or every other day.

Did you start with all new equipment when you started your tank? it's just that from the first few pics you posted i can see algae on the filter pipes and diffuser?

Regards,
Jim


----------



## george dicker

what about filter floss, any one know a good place to buy, ebay or. I know crews hills sposed to be pretty good, just hassle getting there


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## banthaman.jm

Hey George,

Here is a link for for ebay filter floss http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-P...t=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item4ade98a5f8
and a link to pan scrubers which have been suggested in other posts http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=281948163

I checked out your pics, the filter inlet pipe (the crud stopper) and the power head look as though they could do with being cleaned with a tooth brush... every little bit of cleaning helps with the health of your tank.

I'm going to suggest that it might be worth you doing a 3 day blackout with your tank, no light or co2 and a big rubbish bag over the the tank.  This in theory should kill off the algae.  http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/algae-problems-new-tank.37030/#post-399427

I'm still going to recommend using liquid carbon as a algaecide.

Jim


----------



## Rahms

have you cleaned your filter recently george? probably full of old decomposing leaves if not


----------



## Sk3lly

banthaman.jm said:


> Hey George,
> 
> Here is a link for for ebay filter floss http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quality-P...t=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item4ade98a5f8
> and a link to pan scrubers which have been suggested in other posts http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=281948163
> 
> I checked out your pics, the filter inlet pipe (the crud stopper) and the power head look as though they could do with being cleaned with a tooth brush... every little bit of cleaning helps with the health of your tank.
> 
> I'm going to suggest that it might be worth you doing a 3 day blackout with your tank, no light or co2 and a big rubbish bag over the the tank.  This in theory should kill off the algae.  http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/algae-problems-new-tank.37030/#post-399427
> 
> I'm still going to recommend using liquid carbon as a algaecide.
> 
> Jim


3 day blackout fixed my first ever planted aquarium when i was in this exact same position


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## James O

+1 for pan scrubbers.  High surface area and high flow.  Better than flow imo.  Learnt this from Ceg.

Try this:  give the filter a good clean.  Leave your light off for a few days.  Do a water change every day (full barrel out/full barrel in). And don't EI dose or add fertiliser.

Once the algae is mostly gone:  half normal light period.  If you cand afford a load of plant that you want for a while buy pond weed with the lead band around the end.  Chuck it in and it can be a replacement for your plant mass till you can afford tge plants you want.  5 or so bunches should help out compete the algae


----------



## Ryan Thang To

george dicker said:


> what about filter floss, any one know a good place to buy, ebay or. I know crews hills sposed to be pretty good, just hassle getting there


Floss is good but in no time it will get clog and slow flow down


----------



## Ryan Thang To

On page 1 you said that your filter is 206 and you using a 106 That filter is not enough


----------



## george dicker

so you don't think I should buy a uv sterilizer yet ?


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Not many people use uv sterilizer at all. I would use all the money on new plants first and then save money for a new bigger filter.


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Plants is like a filter also so having lots of it would make your tank look good but safe for fish too. What you got it atm is way to little that why there so many algae problem. 

Put more plants in and set your lights around 6 hours and after a month if everything goes well you can up it slowly to 7 8 max


----------



## James O

george dicker said:


> so you don't think I should buy a uv sterilizer yet ?



You can clear it up without a UV lamp.  And as it not going to happen again (because you'll be a crystal clear tank champ) there's no need to buy one


----------



## george dicker

ok, today is a day for new plans, 4 hours of light a day, 1 barrel water change daily, and filter floss, then well see


----------



## Wallace

That 106 you are using is underpowered. As a guide I'm using a 305 on a 60 x 30 x 30 54l tank. 

I know you are using a Koralia alongside the filter, but a bigger filter would certainly be a good place to start. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JamieB

So, George, priority list!
1. More plants!
2. New filter
During the above, keep up water changes and 4-6 hour light period!


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Wallace said:


> That 106 you are using is underpowered. As a guide I'm using a 305 on a 60 x 30 x 30 54l tank.
> 
> I know you are using a Koralia alongside the filter, but a bigger filter would certainly be a good place to start.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same as me i got 1200l/h on my 65litre


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

day 1 of starting water changes every day with no ferts


----------



## RossMartin

I use a JBL e1500 on an 80l tank with pot scrubbers. I would definitely not use filter floss George!!!


----------



## george dicker

pot scrubbers ?


----------



## JamieB

The things you wash dishes with. Sponges.


----------



## James O

Ebay linky to pot scrubbers


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/9PC-PLAST...577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a2e153299


You'll find them cheaper in you local £1 store I'd of thought


----------



## banthaman.jm

James O said:


> You'll find them cheaper in you local £1 store I'd of thought



or 40p tesco

Jim


----------



## george dicker

what, put sponges in your filter


----------



## Rahms

george dicker said:


> what, put sponges in your filter



its not that big a leap george, you've probably already got sponges in your fluval!

But I really wouldn't get distracted with filter media, it's not your issue (except, maybe, you have too much and its reducing your turnover)


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

slight improvement, 1 barrel a day, 4 hour photoperiod


----------



## nelly9

Looking better and everything looks cleaner in the tank as well.


----------



## Rahms

plants look good, cant see any BGA!

nice one


----------



## banthaman.jm

Hi George, all the work looks as though it is paying off, we can see the plants now and they are looking good.  Keep up the good work 
Jim


----------



## luckyjim

Well done George, things are looking up.

I would say from the colour of your dropchecker you could do with pumping your CO2 up a bit though. It would really give your plants a growth burst, and hopefully stop the algae coming back.

Keep up the good work mate.


----------



## george dicker

okay, I will


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

getting clearer, slowly


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Looking much better


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Your tank is crying out for more plants


----------



## luckyjim

Nice one mate. Let me know when you're ready for the ludwiga.


----------



## banthaman.jm

Great  progress George, good to see your tank coming together 
Jim


----------



## george dicker

I cant ask for that


----------



## Wallace

Looks a lot better than it did, if I were you I would raise the Koralia up so it's closer to the surface as it looks as though there is an oily film?

Raise the Koralia so that it is only just below the surface of the water, and it will help to prevent that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## george dicker

BOOM!


----------



## Ryan Thang To

Nomore algae  BOOM!


----------



## george dicker

okay so my schedule is still 1 barrel a day, but I have increased the photoperiod and are dosing ei


----------



## george dicker

very clean yes, keeping that drop checker lime green


----------



## JamieB

Nice! Well done! Now more plants!!!


----------



## James O

JamieB said:


> Nice! Well done! Now more plants!!!



+1


----------



## banthaman.jm

Fantastic to see your tank looking so clear  will you be adding more plants to your tank a s they will help to keep the tank nice and healthy.
Jim


----------



## JamieB

And perhaps some hardscape?


----------



## luckyjim

I think George is aiming for a Dutch style tank.

Either way he needs to double the plant mass in there, at a minimum, if he doesn't want to see it crash and burn again.


----------



## Rahms

at the very least, you could trim the two in the back right george, and replant the tops.  Trimming is important!


----------



## george dicker

Exactly, I think I stated that earlier, as I was changing a barrel a day, the nutrient count must be starved, now I have resumed normal w/c and nutrient dosing, cheers


----------



## george dicker

sorry, I should be more clear, exactly was referring to the dutch style


----------



## nelly9

Hows it all going Mr Dicker ???  or


----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker




----------



## george dicker

algae on substrate level, im hopingthis will clear up once plant mass has been achieved, thx for asking


----------



## James O

You're going to need to buy that plant mass rather than grow it from what you have or you'll get into problems again.  Things are in the algae's favour at the moment so you need to reduce light period an hour or two.


----------



## Nelson

Looks like blue green algae,cyanobacteria.


----------



## george dicker

ok, noted, mainly brown algae but yes there are specs of cyano m8


----------



## luckyjim

George - look at where the thick patches of algae are in relation to your plants. It has grown where there are no plants to soak up the light, and nutrients from the substrate.

At the moment, it seems confined to those areas. However, as I think ceg said, algae is best compared to a predator. It is simply building up strength and mass at the moment. Very soon it will run out of space on the substrate and then attack your plants. Then you are screwed, especially since you don't have any clean up crew in there.

It will take months for your existing plants to reach enough mass to mount a fight back against the algae. At the moment, your tank is a ticking time bomb.

Well done for recovering it from its previous state. However, you need to seriously think about what happens next. If you do not do something, it is going to be all over very quickly.

You might be reluctant to buy new plants because of the cost. Think of it this way. How much is it going to cost to replace all of your existing plants when the tank inevitably crashes? Or, how are you going to feel sitting looking at a big expensive tank and hardware full of algae again?

For the sake of all of our sanity, please put some more plants in. You should also think about some shrimp and snails now as well, since you have successfully cycled your tank. My offer still stands to send you some clippings. It won't cost me anything - I have to trim almost as much plant mass out of my tank (which is smaller than yours) every two weeks as you have in total.


----------



## Ryan Thang To

George need help 
But will he take it


----------



## george dicker

where are you based maybe I could pick some up, I have reduced the photoperiod just now to fight the algae


----------



## xim

What kind of substrate are you using? Sorry if it has been said but it's 24 pages long.


----------



## luckyjim

george dicker said:


> where are you based maybe I could pick some up, I have reduced the photoperiod just now to fight the algae



London, I can just stick it in the post though George, I have free postage.


----------



## george dicker

its a jbl substrate, not sure which


----------



## banthaman.jm

george dicker said:


> its a jbl substrate, not sure which



I would say it is the same as mine which is Manado.

Glad to see the water is still clear George, you have obviously been keeping the advise people have offered to mind.  I think the guys that have replied above are correct, you are on the right path but need more plant mass.



James O said:


> Things are in the algae's favour at the moment so you need to reduce light period an hour or two.



Great advise from James O

Jim


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## george dicker

manado yes, its not great, if I had the chance I would switch to aquasoil or eco complete


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## banthaman.jm

It is a bit of pain to plant into, it's very light substrate. How's the tank going, more pics please.
Jim


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

algaes pretty much dissipating now so that's a plus, wanna get the substrate covered completely


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

shout out to bantha man who sent me some ludwigia repens, im impressed with the redness of the plant, also he sent me another which is next to the staurogyne, anywho that's p cool, this pic is just after a trim, thx


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## banthaman.jm

Hi George,

Firstly...
nice to see the tank with more plants, some more still needed.  the tank is heading in the right direction.

Secondly....
It was not me that sent you the plants....

jim


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## george dicker

sorry, props to lucky jim


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

day after a trim, the ludwigia is starting to grow


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## James O

Definitely more plant mass George

Why don't you go to the For Sale/Swap/Wanted forum http://www.ukaps.org/forum/forums/for-sale-swap-wanted.23/ and post what plants your after.  I'm sure members will be able to fill your tank in no time!!


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## george dicker

I will just order some line if I need, however, even though the tank has cycled now, I would have thought the plants would be growing faster and bushier with lime green co2 and ei ferts ?
cheers


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

hi all, thought id show what my tank is looking like, its ok just patches of cyanobacteria showing up


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## James O

Hi George 

Your taller plants seem to be doing better than the lower compact plants.  Try sticking your CO2 diffuser under the koralia. 

That should get the gas down to the substrate


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## nelly9

James O said:


> Hi George
> 
> Your taller plants seem to be doing better than the lower compact plants.  Try sticking your CO2 diffuser under the koralia.
> 
> That should get the gas down to the substrate


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## James O

How's it going George?


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## banthaman.jm

Hope the tanks doing well, long time no post.
Jim


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## george dicker

ill post some pics, im going low tek because i was having trouble with cyano, cheers


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## george dicker

plus i had no money to replace the co2, and a massive bloom appeared, was just too much work, now im thinking easy plants and water changes once fortnightly


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## Robert H. Tavera

Been honest, I don´t know what is happening here, Is a very long thread and has evolved poorly. I´ll recomend you to try easier plants that are really beautiful. Cryptocorynes and bolbitits are some of my favorite plats and are easy plants !! A nice piece of driftwood with java or christmas moss and some bolbitis and/or microsorum may work with some slim vallisneria nana and/or hygrophyla polisperma at the back. A mix of medium-small size cryptocorynes in the middle-front area with some moss on stones and a cler beach of cosmetic sand at the front will complement the background plants. Some pencilfish or tertras swimming in there, or maybe a more traditional look with rasboras and barbs.


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## banthaman.jm

Hi George, sorry to hear your tank has had problems, it was recovering well I think a low tech approach is probably your best option which @Robert H. Tavera  mentioned, you can have a lovely tank with minimal fuss.  Will you start a journal for your new low tech tank?
Jim


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## george dicker

yes i will keep u updated


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## GHNelson

Hi George
What JBL substrate are you using?
hoggie


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## george dicker

manado, dont buy, it is crap


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## GHNelson

Hi George
I think that's where your problems are coming from.....its void of plant growing nutrients!
Cheers
hoggie


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## george dicker

hmm, no i wouldnt say so, i was dosing ferts so the plants could get nutrients whether from the water or the substrate, there was a time when i was thinking top soil, because i was getting all sorts of issues, in the end cyano and cloudy water was the death of me !! 
low tech definately this time !!! then slow changes


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## Christos Ioannou

hogan53 said:


> Hi George
> I think that's where your problems are coming from.....its void of plant growing nutrients!
> Cheers
> hoggie


This is a brave statement  

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## george dicker

yh well it doesnt hold down the plants at all


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## GHNelson

Members have used this substrate with success!
Valley of Colours journal rings a bell!
Its just my opinion....I recon this substrate would take a very long time to get fully seeded with bacteria and nutrients from the water column!
If your going low tech try Colombo Flora Base if your going to change the substrate!
hoggie


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## george dicker

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/georgehdicker/_DSC3626_zpsw8teet30.jpg


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## george dicker

tank at the mo


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## banthaman.jm

I use Aqua basis and manado top, it does take along time to get good cation exchange going, and yes it's bad at keeping the plants anchored but not what I think the problem was here.  George did a great job at cleaning up the tank from when it was at its worst, but the tank needed much more plant biomass, anyway enough of me. Good luck with the low tech tank George.


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## banthaman.jm

It's a blank canvas George, fun times ahead designing layout and plant composition, any idea what substrate you will go with, JBL Manado again 
Jim


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## george dicker

naaa ill use gravel, gonna concentrate on keeping some nice fish and easy plants and see what happens


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## banthaman.jm




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## Robert H. Tavera

george dicker said:


> naaa ill use gravel, gonna concentrate on keeping some nice fish and easy plants and see what happens


I´ll sugest to use a good substrate like amazonia for crypst and swords that are realy heavy root feeders..
Do you have a plant list in your mind?
A fish list? .... a well mixed fish stock allways is amazing!


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## george dicker

maybe ill try amazonia, as for fish yes, mixed rasboras neons corydoras


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## banthaman.jm

Hey George, Amazonia is an expensive substrate like all ADA products and people have had a great results using lots of different types of substrate from cat litter, river sand, the list is endless.  Here is a link to a post from ukaps that might help http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/substrate-for-low-tech-planted-tank.34508/ 
Jim


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## george dicker

decided to go with pea gravel


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

low tech here we come,


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## george dicker

lets hope this tank will be algae free


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## Robert H. Tavera

good luck, update us, we want to follow your process !


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

limnophila sessiflora and stargrass and 2 crypts planted


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## tim

Do you plan to add more plants George ? Low tech will grow very slowly its best to start with a high plant mass in my experience.


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## george dicker

starting off slow, i really really dont want any nuisance algaes, but yea i will put some hygrophilia polysperma and other low tech plants


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

slight traces of cyano which im quite annoyed what shall i do


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## Wallace

Hi George, if that's Microsorium Pteropus (Java Fern) you've got on the right of the pic, it needs to be attached to wood or rock. In the substrate like you have it it will just rot and die. 


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## george dicker

ok thanks for the advice


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## george dicker

hi, i was actually reading up on your last posts, yes i will order some thanks again


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## george dicker

planted pretty heavily hoping to discourage the cyano


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## James O

If you're only planting the gavel surface you're missing a trick George.  You seem to be planting a field.  

Get some wood in there to create height and shadow, some Anubias, mosses and Java fern on the wood.  Crypts in the shadows...etc etc.  After all your tank is 45cm _high _as well as deep (front to back)

Nature is a feast in every dimension HxWxD


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## banthaman.jm

Hey George, good to see your tank coming on . Keep up with the posts as I'm keen to see how it matures.
Jim


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

plants seem to be growing quicker now, hopefully i can start pruning and selling soon


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## Ryan Thang To

nice one ☺

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## banthaman.jm

Hey George, the tank is coming along very well, just thinking back to what it was looking like, 100 fold better 
Jim


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## george dicker




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## george dicker

added some ferts today and are impressed with the pearling !


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## tim

Are you adding co2 to the tank now George ? Looks much better with more plant mass, I would let those stem plants grow thick and strong before trimming, they will regrow quicker that way.


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## george dicker

i am yes i just cant get any growth without


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## george dicker




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## BexHaystack

Woooow...This journal... I think Homer missed an opportunity: synopsis - Odysseus decides to stay at home and put together a planted tank instead of going off to fight in Troy, an epic tale for the UKAPS member who has a few spare hours on a Saturday afternoon. George, maybe you should rename this tank the Odyssey


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