# Nitrifying bacteria



## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

If i was to put a source of ammonia into a sterile environment where does the nitrifying bacteria come from? Do they come into being from the ammonia itself?


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## The grumpy one (5 Feb 2022)

Is this a sealed sterile environment? 

If not then, bacteria comes from the air.
Hence why jam is put in jars when very hot, killing off all bacteria,  and then a air tight lid is put on before it cools.
Try taking the lid off a pot of jam and see how long it takes to go mouldy.


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## Andy Pierce (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> If i was to put a source of ammonia into a sterile environment where does the nitrifying bacteria come from? Do they come into being from the ammonia itself?


This is actually the description of a classic experiment done by Louis Pasteur in 1859 that proved bacteria do not spontaneously come into existence (Spontaneous generation - Wikipedia).  I'm setting up a new shrimp tank (Creating Shrimphaus - Fireplace aquarium) and have purchased FB7 Bacto Elixier from Dennerle (Bacto Elixier FB7 | Dennerle) to get nitrifying bacteria off to a running start in the tank.  I am 99.9% sure that 'Bacto Elixier' is nothing more than juice squeezed out of a sponge filter from an established aquarium, but there you go.


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

The grumpy one said:


> Is this a sealed sterile environment?
> 
> If not then, bacteria comes from the air.
> Hence why jam is put in jars when very hot, killing off all bacteria,  and then a air tight lid is put on before it cools.
> Try taking the lid off a pot of jam and see how long it takes to go mouldy.


Not necessarily, think of our aquariums say using  RO water. So nitrifying bacteria is in the air?


Andy Pierce said:


> This is actually the description of a classic experiment done by Louis Pasteur in 1859 that proved bacteria do not spontaneously come into existence (Spontaneous generation - Wikipedia).  I'm setting up a new shrimp tank (Creating Shrimphaus - Fireplace aquarium) and have purchased FB7 Bacto Elixier from Dennerle (Bacto Elixier FB7 | Dennerle) to get nitrifying bacteria off to a running start in the tank. I am 99.9% sure that 'Bacto Elixier' is nothing more than juice squeezed out of a sponge filter from an established aquarium, but there you go.


Im kind of doing the same although i just added ammonia initially hence my question.


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Not necessarily, think of our aquariums say using RO water. So nitrifying bacteria is in the air?


Probably, as well as  entering the aquarium on the plants.


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Probably, as well as  entering the aquarium on the plants.


Im thinking more controlled conditions so just water, and ammonia.


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Im thinking more controlled conditions so just water, and ammonia.


I see an experiment in the offing…


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> I see an experiment in the offing…


It has to have been done by someone already its just i cannot find anything on it.


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> It has to have been done by someone already its just i cannot find anything on it.


Oh I’m sure it has.  But replication is always useful.


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## mort (5 Feb 2022)

I'm not sure I'm following. Are you wanting to start a tank with just water and ammonia and are wondering where the bacteria come from? Or are you wanting to make sure you have the bacteria in the tank for when you want to dose ammonia?

There are quite a few threads that explain why most of us wouldn't start a tank with ammonia but plants, used filter material or anything from a living system will help provide bacteria.


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

mort said:


> Are you wanting to start a tank with just water and ammonia and are wondering where the bacteria come from? Or are you wanting to make sure you have the bacteria in the tank for when you want to dose ammonia?



The question is if you was to put ammonia into a sterile body of water, and im talking for argument's sake into a bare tank where does the bacteria come from?  A biochemical reaction inside the ammonia gets triggered somehow?


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## Maf 2500 (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> The question is if you was to put ammonia into a sterile body of water, and im talking for argument's sake into a bare tank where does the bacteria come from


From the air, as mentioned above.


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

Maf 2500 said:


> From the air, as mentioned above.


Nitrifying bacteria are airborne? I know they colonise soil, and water. If they are in the air does that mean ammonia is airborne as well (emissions) seeing the bacteria need the ammonia to survive?


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## Maf 2500 (5 Feb 2022)

Lots of other bacteria are airbourne, seeding rainclouds etc, but I must admit I haven't studied nitrifying bacteria in enough detail to know for sure. Sterile environments don't stay sterile once exposed to the air, so that suggests to me that air transport is a common way for bacteria to get around.


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

Maf 2500 said:


> Lots of other bacteria are airbourne, seeding rainclouds etc, but I must admit I haven't studied nitrifying bacteria in enough detail to know for sure. Sterile environments don't stay sterile once exposed to the air, so that suggests to me that air transport is a common way for bacteria to get around.


Indeed, this is why things go off when exposed to air.  Milk soures , flour and water turns to sour dough, etc.  liquids containing ammonia are colonised by nitrifying bacteria.


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## Maf 2500 (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> seeing the bacteria need the ammonia to survive


That's not strictly true. They need the ammonia to multiply and grow, but not to survive. The sealed bottles of bacteria you can buy are not full of oxygen and ammonia, but full of bacteria without a food source, in stasis if you will.


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Indeed, this is why things go off when exposed to air.  Milk soures , flour and water turns to sour dough, etc.  liquids containing ammonia are colonised by nitrifying bacteria.


Are the bacteria's that affects foods etc not the same ie salmonella, listeria, and mold?


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Are the bacteria's that affects foods etc not the same ie salmonella, listeria, and mold?


Salmonella and listeria are bacteria, but they don’t affect food.  Mould is caused by fungal spores.  The point being that the atmosphere contains both bacteria and fungal spores that float around until they find a suitable habitat and then multiply.

Edited to correct that salmonella and listeria  do indeed affect food. Doh!


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Salmonella and listeria are bacteria, but they don’t affect food.  Mould is caused by fungal spores.  The point being that the atmosphere contains both bacteria and fungal spores that float around until they find a suitable habitat and then multiply.


Salmonella affects both food, and water? Mould can affect food as well? I get it has to come into contact by other means.

So the way bacteria affects other things like food is the same process that allows nitrifying bacteria (which is airborne) to come into contact with ammonia that's in liquids?


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

Our atmosphere contains all sorts of  bacteria and fungal spores. Nitrifying bacteria are usually found in water sources.  I strongly suspect, however,  that if you leave some water with ammonia exposed to the atmosphere that eventually some nitriding bacteria will find their way in and start getting to work.


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## The grumpy one (5 Feb 2022)

Ammonia is usually a  gas, so it is present in air.
Ammonia


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Nitrifying bacteria are usually found in water sources.


Thats where my confusion was. I thought initially that the ammonia, and its contact with water started a biochemical process, and that's how the nitrifying bacteria came from. In the situation that ive described i cant see any other way it can come in contact with the ammonia through the water so ill go along with it being by air.



> Ammonia is usually a  gas, so it is present in air.  Ammonia


Yeah i read that...well not all of it


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## arcturus (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Thats where my confusion was. I thought initially that the ammonia, and its contact with water started a biochemical process, and that's how the nitrifying bacteria came from. In the situation that ive described i cant see any other way it can come in contact with the ammonia through the water so ill go along with it being by air.
> 
> 
> Yeah i read that...well not all of it



Have a look at <this paper>. In this example, the researchers identified between 1000 and 10000 fungal spores in every cubic meter of air, pertaining to several hundred fungi species. To put this in context,  this means a person would breath in average 1-10 to spores in every breath. A similar reasoning applies to the <airborne propagation of algae>. <This book> describes other cases, including airborne propagation of bacteria. In short, your tank with "just" water and ammonia will contain a large count of different species of spores and bacteria from multiple sources, including the air, the water, and everything that was close to the tank, including you.


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> Have a look at <this paper>. In this example, the researchers identified between 1000 and 10000 fungal spores in every cubic meter of air, pertaining to several hundred fungi species. To put this in context,  this means a person would breath in average 1-10 to spores in every breath. A similar reasoning applies to the <airborne propagation of algae>. <This book> describes other cases, including airborne propagation of bacteria. In short, your tank with "just" water and ammonia will contain a large count of different species of spores and bacteria from multiple sources, including the air, the water, and everything that was close to the tank, including you.


Oh yeah i understand that its all good although id say no two bacteria are the same nor do they perform the same function such as those that perform nitrification? I mean they are a unique set of bacteria with a specific aim?


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## jaypeecee (5 Feb 2022)

The grumpy one said:


> Try taking the lid off a pot of jam and see how long it takes to go mouldy.


Hi @The grumpy one 

But that simply demonstrates that there are airborne fungal spores.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (5 Feb 2022)

The grumpy one said:


> Ammonia is usually a gas, so it is present in air.


Ammonia in its gaseous form is NH3. When dissolved in water, it forms the ammonium ion, NH4+.

JPC


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## Jaseon (5 Feb 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @The grumpy one
> 
> But that simply demonstrates that there are airborne fungal spores.
> 
> JPC


I think grumpy was making the point that air is the bridge?


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## dw1305 (5 Feb 2022)

Hi all,
I think nitrifying organisms <"will always find sources of ammonia">. You can definitely speed that process up by adding <"an inoculum of suitable microbes">. There is a discussion of this in <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">.

Because ammonia rich resources are likely to be patchy, it would make  evolutionary sense for the microbes that utilise them to have life stages that are reasonably mobile.


jaypeecee said:


> Ammonia in its gaseous form is NH3. When dissolved in water, it forms the ammonium ion, NH4+


As a gas in the air and in aqueous solution it can be either NH3 or NH4+ <"dependent upon pH">.





cheers Darrel


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## hypnogogia (5 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> As a gas in the air and in aqueous solution it can be either NH3 or NH4+ <"dependent upon pH">.


That’s why it’s safer to keep pH below 7.


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## arcturus (5 Feb 2022)

Jaseon said:


> Oh yeah i understand that its all good although id say no two bacteria are the same nor do they perform the same function such as those that perform nitrification? I mean they are a unique set of bacteria with a specific aim?


Yes, there are specific organisms related to nitrification (ammonia-oxidizing archaea - AOA, ammonia-oxidizing bacteria - AOB, nitrite-oxidizing bacteria - NOB, ...) But these processes take place nearly everywhere, from volcanic hot streams to plant pots. These organisms are found in virtually all non-sterile environments, including plants, trees, soils and water sources, including clouds. Bacteria, <including nitrifying bacteria are found in clouds>, where <nitrification processes also take place>. You may be severely underestimating the prevalence of these organisms in this planet


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## dw1305 (5 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


arcturus said:


> These organisms are found in virtually all non-sterile environments, including plants, trees, soils and water sources, including clouds. Bacteria, <including nitrifying bacteria are found in clouds>, where <nitrification processes also take place>. You may be severely underestimating the prevalence of these organisms in this planet


That has been the real revolution in our understanding of nitrification.

Since we've had mechanisms for <"looking for the genes"> that actually code for the oxidation of ammonia/ammonium (NH3/NH4+) and nitrite (NO2) to nitrate (NO3-) nitrifying bacteria have gone from being <"rare specialised organisms"> that only occur in a <"very particular range of circumstances">, to microbes that come <"from two of the three kingdoms of life"> and are <"virtually universal">.

cheers Darrel


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## Vsevolod Stakhov (15 Feb 2022)

I have recently conducted a simple experiment: I've placed two opened bottles in a dark warm place with tap water and added 10ppm of ammonia to one bottle and 0.5ppm of ammonia to another bottle. My experiment was to determine if there is any inhibition from high ammonia levels. But I have also checked how nitrifiction starts without any addition of external bacteria via substrate/fish/plants. I had to be patient - nothing happened for like a month and ammonia levels were stable. However, after around a month there was a huge drop of ammonia levels: a bottle with 10ppm ammonia has processed around 6ppm of ammonia to like 20+ ppm of nitrite. A bottle with 0.5ppm ammonia was able to reduce it's level to around 0.25ppm ammonia. So it seems that 10ppm ammonia has no negative effect, it actually increases ammonification activity comparing to 0.5ppm sample. Furthermore, nitrite oxidation phase has established shortly afterwards in both samples (dropping KH from 12 to like 4 in a sample with 10ppm ammonia). I have concluded two major things: that neither ammonia nor nitrite high concentartions do not actually inhibit any stages of nitrification, and, secondly, that nitrification can start without any external help but it might take much more time than a typical fish tank cycling.


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## arcturus (15 Feb 2022)

Vsevolod Stakhov said:


> I have recently conducted a simple experiment: I've placed two opened bottles in a dark warm place with tap water and added 10ppm of ammonia to one bottle and 0.5ppm of ammonia to another bottle. My experiment was to determine if there is any inhibition from high ammonia levels. But I have also checked how nitrifiction starts without any addition of external bacteria via substrate/fish/plants. I had to be patient - nothing happened for like a month and ammonia levels were stable. However, after around a month there was a huge drop of ammonia levels: a bottle with 10ppm ammonia has processed around 6ppm of ammonia to like 20+ ppm of nitrite. A bottle with 0.5ppm ammonia was able to reduce it's level to around 0.25ppm ammonia. So it seems that 10ppm ammonia has no negative effect, it actually increases ammonification activity comparing to 0.5ppm sample. Furthermore, nitrite oxidation phase has established shortly afterwards in both samples (dropping KH from 12 to like 4 in a sample with 10ppm ammonia). I have concluded two major things: that neither ammonia nor nitrite high concentartions do not actually inhibit any stages of nitrification, and, secondly, that nitrification can start without any external help but it might take much more time than a typical fish tank cycling.


The nitrification bacteria are everywhere. Have a <look at this thread> - you will not find the bacteria there but some interesting links   I would say that an aquarium has higher potential than a bottle to be exposed and contaminated by bacteria in a shorter period of time.


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