# German Blue Ram Fry - What Should I Feed Them?



## mark4785

I have removed another batch of 30 GBR eggs (attached to a pebble) from my main aquarium into a small fry aquarium, seeded with filter media from my pond. Over night, most of the fertilised eggs have moved from the pebble to the base of the tank and there appears to be waving fins poking out of many of the egg shells. Some of the fry appear to have no egg shell on their body and appear to be free swimming. They are no more than 1mm in length. When should I put some liquifry food in? I don't want them to die! Is liquifry food the best at this stage of their growth??

Day 1 video:


Day 2 video:


Day 3 video:


Day 4 video:


Day 6 video:


Any feeding advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, would anybody be interested in swapping plants or other items for my GBR fry once (or if) they grow into adults?


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## NC10

It will be too late for this batch, but you want to set a few cultures of micro, banana, and walter worms up.

Vinegar eels too, although I've never done these myself. Same sort sort of thing though as far as I know. They're all nematodes 

It doesn't cost much to buy a starter culture and they're very easy to look after. You can keep them going for as long as you want, forever even 

You'll have a constant supply of live fry food anyway


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## sciencefiction

They are so cute. They look like they still have their sacs attached.
I haven't raised or kept GBRs so not of much help but with tiny fry for me powdered food like tetra baby min works to start them off. I mixed it with a bit of water and squirt it with a syringe so it sinks into the water, otherwise it floats at the surface.
Or you can use normal fish food, just make it into fine powder first.
Then if you can get something fancier to alternate like live food it would be great.
And of course, careful with the water quality as it can go downhill fast due to the amount of feedings one normally should do.

Good luck with them.


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## mafoo

I've heard cooked egg yoke mixed with water and added a few drops at a time is good starting food for fry.


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> It will be too late for this batch, but you want to set a few cultures of micro, banana, and walter worms up.
> 
> Vinegar eels too, although I've never done these myself. Same sort sort of thing though as far as I know. They're all nematodes
> 
> It doesn't cost much to buy a starter culture and they're very easy to look after. You can keep them going for as long as you want, forever even
> 
> You'll have a constant supply of live fry food anyway



Hi NC10,

A bag walter worm culture arrived today and some frozen vinegar eels arrived in the post too.

Do you know procedurally what I need to go about doing to grow the walter worms? The seller hasn't provided any clear instructions sadly.

Its the same situation with the frozen vinegar eels; not too sure what to do with them![DOUBLEPOST=1404327655][/DOUBLEPOST]





sciencefiction said:


> They are so cute. They look like they still have their sacs attached.
> I haven't raised or kept GBRs so not of much help but with tiny fry for me powdered food like tetra baby min works to start them off. I mixed it with a bit of water and squirt it with a syringe so it sinks into the water, otherwise it floats at the surface.
> Or you can use normal fish food, just make it into fine powder first.
> Then if you can get something fancier to alternate like live food it would be great.
> And of course, careful with the water quality as it can go downhill fast due to the amount of feedings one normally should do.
> 
> Good luck with them.



Thank you. My hope is that the water quality will hold fine as the bit of filter media that I took from the pond filter had been in there for over 5 years. I feed my koi 5-6 times a day and often give them treats so there should be some powerful filter bacteria on the filter media cutting that was transferred to the fry aquarium.

At the moment I'm using Hikari First Bites and Liquifry. I've got some Sera baby fish food pellets but they are too large.


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## NC10

Sure mate, I'm being lazy so I'll just quote something else I wrote a while back. If you still need help just shout up. I can't help on the vinegar eels though, sorry.



NC10 said:


> Banana, Walter and Micro worms are easy to keep and catch. Just use a food container with some holes in the lid, mix some oats/porridge up with a pinch of dried yeast and mix with tepid water to a gloopy consistency. It wants to be a couple of CM's deep. I used 500ml containers, the regular takeaway type thing. You don't need to weigh the oats out or anything, just put them in the container dry to get the right level before mixing.
> 
> All you need then is a small culture to start them off. If no one on here can send you some to get you started, you can buy a starter culture on eBay for a couple of quid. I bought all 3 for £5 inc postage from a website. (PM if you want the link)
> 
> When they get going they just crawl up the sides of the container (& lid) so it's just a case of wiping a cotton bud along the sides to pick them up and transferring them into the tank. You could just use your finger, but they tend to smell a bit so wouldn't recommend it
> 
> You can keep the supply going forever by just starting a new container and adding a teaspoon of the culture you already have going. I've had them going for months though just letting them get on with it.


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> Sure mate, I'm being lazy so I'll just quote something else I wrote a while back. If you still need help just shout up. I can't help on the vinegar eels though, sorry.



Ok thanks for that! So basically, I get a container (with holes in the lid), mix the oats, dried yeast in with tepid water and then its just a case of adding a small amount of culture? Would you say 1 teaspoon of this 'walter worm gloop' would be enough or are we talking about adding a lot more?

Thanks again!


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## NC10

No problem. Yes correct, that's it.

Just put the culture on the top and let them get on with it. A teaspoon full will be fine, how much did they send you? Just put it all on, unless you're starting a few tubs off, but you should be fine with just one going.

In a few weeks, just take a spoonful of the culture you have going and add it to another fresh tub.


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> No problem. Yes correct, that's it.
> 
> Just put the culture on the top and let them get on with it. A teaspoon full will be fine, how much did they send you? Just put it all on, unless you're starting a few tubs off, but you should be fine with just one going.
> 
> In a few weeks, just take a spoonful of the culture you have going and add it to another fresh tub.



I was sent about 200 grams of what looks like, well, sick in a bag! I will get all the ingredients I need tomorrow and concoct it all. Thanks for your help.

In the mean time I've been feeding the fry Interpet Liquifry. It comes out of the container as a white gel substance, however, the fry tank as a brown sandy substance all over the base. Could this be uneaten liquifry? Perhaps there is somebody out there that can verify whether liquifry turns into a brown particulate like substance when in water over time? You can see the substance at the front of the tank on the base in video 3.

The fry don't appear to eat the liquifry so I'm a bit nervous.


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## NC10

lol it not only looks like sick, it smells pretty rank too 

200g seems a decent portion, you won't need all that anyway.

How do you feed the liquifry? Are you just dropping it in or pre mixing? You have the live food underway now anyway, so find the nearest bin and add the liquifry ASAP


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> lol it not only looks like sick, it smells pretty rank too
> 
> 200g seems a decent portion, you won't need all that anyway.
> 
> How do you feed the liquifry? Are you just dropping it in or pre mixing? You have the live food underway now anyway, so find the nearest bin and add the liquifry ASAP



I haven't opened up the bag yet but thanks for the pre-warning about the smell haha.

I just squeeze the liquifry bottle while the tip is in the water and I watch it float to the bottom. I snipped the end of the bottle with the scissors as I was squeezing it so hard, to no avail, and getting cramp in my hand.

I might pre-mix the liquifry, say, in a plastic beaker of tank water while I prepare the culture.


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## NC10

Yep you've got it, don't just drip it into the water. It just sinks to the bottom as what can only be described as a blob.

Just put a small amount of tank water in a little beaker, drip however many drops you're adding to the tank into the beaker and either swish it around or stir it until it's dissolved. When you add it to the tank it should be cloudy rather than just a blob.


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## sparkyweasel

When I used Liquifry in the past, it was a liquid (as you might expect) and dispersed through the water. I got some a few days ago and it 's as you describe, although I squeeze with the bottle above the water; it comes out as a liquid, but congeals as soon as it hits the water and sinks to the bottom in a blob. That was so unexpected that I bought another bottle from elsewhere, but that one is the same, so I assume that's how it is supposed to be. I'm using it for _Corydoras_ fry, so it actually works OK, as they stay near the bottom and feed off the blobs. I've also got those brown particles on the bottom of the breeding trap, so I think it must be from the uneaten Liquifry.
My fry (from an unexpected spawning) did OK on Liquifry for a few days until I got my microworms sorted, now they are getting both.


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## sciencefiction

mark4785 said:


> the fry tank as a brown sandy substance all over the base. Could this be uneaten liquifry?


 This is how uneaten rotten food looks like. I'd make sure it's promptly removed, several times a day as it gives rise to bad water quality and bacteria. It's very easy compromise the water in a fry tank because most food gets uneaten but if one feeds too little half the fry don't eat.
If you have dwarf shrimp like cherry shrimp they help clean the bottom and don't bother fry. I kept my baby corys with them.


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## mark4785

sparkyweasel said:


> When I used Liquifry in the past, it was a liquid (as you might expect) and dispersed through the water. I got some a few days ago and it 's as you describe, although I squeeze with the bottle above the water; it comes out as a liquid, but congeals as soon as it hits the water and sinks to the bottom in a blob. That was so unexpected that I bought another bottle from elsewhere, but that one is the same, so I assume that's how it is supposed to be. I'm using it for _Corydoras_ fry, so it actually works OK, as they stay near the bottom and feed off the blobs. I've also got those brown particles on the bottom of the breeding trap, so I think it must be from the uneaten Liquifry.
> My fry (from an unexpected spawning) did OK on Liquifry for a few days until I got my microworms sorted, now they are getting both.



I guess, in my case, liquifry isn't a brilliant option as GBR's / GBR fry are bottom, mid and top dwellers. At the moment around 40 or so of them are congregating at the surface. I've mixed some liquifry in a beaker of tank water and added it. As the fry are so small and the liquifry as dispersed beyond recognition, it is hard to tell if anything is being eaten or not. I've sank some Hikari First Bites in the water too, again, I don't know if they are eating it.

I'm going to get the ingredients required to get my walter worms growing as the fry might eat food that they think is moving around.


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## sciencefiction

Liquifry and hikari first bites are very harsh on the water quality. Sorry to repeat myself but just be careful with the food you add.
I don't know if it's normal for GBR fry to congregate at the surface but make sure the tank is very well oxygenated and there's no ammonia spikes.
I would add the food in blotches where the fry gather, not in the water column as all it does is pollute the water and clog the filter.

Edit: Otherwise uneaten food is easy to spot as you've noticed. It looks like brown fluffs, just siphon it out.(some fry could get siphoned so I do it in a clear glass container and siphon the little ones back in)


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## mark4785

Thanks for all the tips, advice and information all.

I've syphoned some of the uneaten liquifry out. They don't appear to like eating it so I might discontinue using it. I'm using Hikari First Bites which seems to send them into a frenzy. I'll continue feeding Hikari until the walter worms are ready.

The fry appear to be near the surface because if one congregates there, they will all follow. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the oxygen level and ammonia level is not the reason that they are at the surface. They appear healthy so I doubt the latter is happening.


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## Lindy

I could send you some banana worms, enough to feed fry and start a culture. You'd just need to pay postage. I have a huge colony I'm just about to bin.


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## mark4785

ldcgroomer said:


> I could send you some banana worms, enough to feed fry and start a culture. You'd just need to pay postage. I have a huge colony I'm just about to bin.



My walter worms don't seem to be growing so I ideally need something that I can buy and feed to the fry straight away. Can you bag those worms up and put some pure oxygen in the bag and send them to me via  Royal Mail Special Delivery? I'd pay the postage fee.

Most appear to be getting by on the Hikari First Bites but some are moving less as though they are weak. I still cannot work out if they are actually eating the Hikari food so I'm just _presuming _that they are as I'm sure they would be dead by now if they had not eat any of it.


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## Lindy

I can, but I don't think oxygen is needed. I'll stick them in a wee tub and post tomorrow.


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## Lindy

Pm me your address


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## NC10

I know it's harsh, but I'd pretty much write this batch off. If some do survive you've done well and if they don't, then you know you've done everything you can.

I can tell you're worrying asking for special delivery and oxygen. It's still not going to be with you until Monday, first class will do that anyway.

Just keep doing what you're doing, but now you're set up with your cultures and fully prepared for next time.

Good luck anyway


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> I know it's harsh, but I'd pretty much write this batch off. If some do survive you've done well and if they don't, then you know you've done everything you can.
> 
> I can tell you're worrying asking for special delivery and oxygen. It's still not going to be with you until Monday, first class will do that anyway.
> 
> Just keep doing what you're doing, but now you're set up with your cultures and fully prepared for next time.
> 
> Good luck anyway



Well I'm just feeding them as frequently as possible with Hikari but I'm not putting much in as its been mentioned that it pollutes the water. I am worrying and very frustrated purely because they are too small to observe. Even with a torch and magnifying glass, its impossible to know if they are eating! 

If I do lose them at least it will save the frustration of re-homing them as 3 LFS within a 10-mile radius of me won't take them off of me as they've had trouble keeping GBR alive in Derbyshire's hard water.


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## sciencefiction

mark4785 said:


> Well I'm just feeding them as frequently as possible with Hikari but I'm not putting much in as its been mentioned that it pollutes the water.


 
Sorry mark, what I meant is not to feed less, but to clean more and change the water at least once daily by 50%. To be honest, if one applies discus growing tactics to any fry, it's the best way to grow them, apart from the nature of the food which differs depending on fish species.


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## mark4785

sciencefiction said:


> Sorry mark, what I meant is not to feed less, but to clean more and change the water at least once daily by 50%. To be honest, if one applies discus growing tactics to any fry, it's the best way to grow them, apart from the nature of the food which differs depending on fish species.



Ok. I'll syphon the water 1-2 times tomorrow by 50-75%.

I've just gone to feed the adult GBR's (the parent's of the fry) and I've noticed that 50 or so eggs have been deposited and the male is fertilising them. I guess they are giving me a second attempt! Between them, the 2 females are depositing 50 or more eggs every 5 days. They've only done this since I started doing a 10% water change every 2 weeks as opposed to a 50% water change weekly.


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## NC10

How big is the fry tank and what filter do you have on it?

It doesn't really matter how often and how much you feed really, as long as you keep up with decent daily water changes, maybe even twice daily if you can and remove anything you think they're not going to eat. Obviously a very small tank is going to take less effort, it will also be a lot easier for the fry to find food too. Little and often anyway,

I can tell you're doing it for the love/joy anyway, so all good  It's very frustrating knowing there's not much you can do, but hopefully you've learnt a lot since making this thread. Just keep reading, learning and keeping your cultures active ready for the next time.

They go for at least £5 each, so if all else fails, a pound each on eBay if you're desperate should soon see them gone anyway.

Edit: Sorry, started replying during the Brazil match  What sciencefiction said


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> How big is the fry tank and what filter do you have on it?
> 
> It doesn't really matter how often and how much you feed really, as long as you keep up with decent daily water changes, maybe even twice daily if you can and remove anything you think they're not going to eat. Obviously a very small tank is going to take less effort, it will also be a lot easier for the fry to find food too. Little and often anyway,
> 
> I can tell you're doing it for the love/joy anyway, so all good  It's very frustrating knowing there's not much you can do, but hopefully you've learnt a lot since making this thread. Just keep reading, learning and keeping your cultures active ready for the next time.
> 
> They go for at least £5 each, so if all else fails, a pound each on eBay if you're desperate should soon see them gone anyway.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, started replying during the Brazil match  Want sciencefiction said



I did one 30% w/c today and got all of the rotting liquifry out. I will do the same twice tomorrow.

I know they can be quite expensive fish. My LFS sells adult GBR's for £7.99 each!

The fry tank is a ClearSeal 20 litre aquarium and this is the filter that is in use which I've attached to an air pump. The filter media that came with it had been placed in a well established pond filter for about 10 days. I wasn't sure that this would be adequate so I snipped a 5-year old filter media portion out and added that to the fry filter.


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## NC10

Brilliant mate, you clearly know what you're doing then. The only thing I'd personally do different is establish the foam in your tropical tank. I don't know if bacteria from a pond would die off from going to warmer water, but I wouldn't want to risk introducing anything nasty from a pond.

Where in Derbyshire are you?


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> Brilliant mate, you clearly know what you're doing then. The only thing I'd personally do different is establish the foam in your tropical tank. I don't know if bacteria from a pond would die off from going to warmer water, but I wouldn't want to risk introducing anything nasty from a pond.
> 
> Where in Derbyshire are you?



I'm from the Chesterfield area.[DOUBLEPOST=1404574887][/DOUBLEPOST]If somebody here had GBR fry, what would you feed them and how often would you do so?

Is there a stage of their growth where they will refuse any food?

And lastly, does anybody vaguely know how many fry inevitably die, if any?


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## NC10

Have you tried the mill garden centre? Or brook as it's now called. I've just been in and they have some rams. 

I've asked them before as well about taking clownfish fry on and they said they would. Worth a try anyway if you haven't already.


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## sciencefiction

*If somebody here had GBR fry, what would you feed them and how often would you do so?*

_You feed any fry as much as they can possibly take and you can manage by keeping the water quality perfect, providing all the essentials needed for them to develop. It's the most important stage of their growth when if certain stuff is missing or not enough it will impact their growth, well being, current/future health, appearance, size, survival, etc...I'd feed them with manufactured high protein fry dedicated food and some live food variety if you can get it. This way they'll get everything they need.
_
*Is there a stage of their growth where they will refuse any food?*
_When they still have their yolk sac attached within the first 24-48 hrs after hatching. Fish refuse to eat when not feeling well generally for one or another reason. With fry it's critical to have them eating one way or another. The reason could be as small as the tank being too big and they can't find the food or the tank too small and water quality is tipping all the time.
But when they are too small it's hard seeing them eat to be honest. You should judge by the growth rate, if no growth, you have a problem. For example for me the same species of corys sometimes grew up incredibly fast when I was keeping them well, other spawns which I didn't keep as well grew up twice as slow and weren't as healthy, I had some losses but not major as I stepped up in time.
_
*And lastly, does anybody vaguely know how many fry inevitably die, if any?*
_This would largely depend on many factors. Some may have a 100% survival rate, some 5%. User errors, inexperience and genetics come into play as well.  See above example.

And sometimes regardless of how well you keep them, you will have runts no matter what. They won't be the most beautiful fish but they can be as healthy as any other. You decide which ones to use in breeding projects._


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## mark4785

NC10 said:


> Have you tried the mill garden centre? Or brook as it's now called. I've just been in and they have some rams.
> 
> I've asked them before as well about taking clownfish fry on and they said they would. Worth a try anyway if you haven't already.



I actually went to the Brook garden centre today and asked them if they'd take some of my fry in when they have grown up. They said they would take 10 at a time in. I only asked after having looked in their aquariums to see how healthy their fish are as I'm not taking them anywhere if they aren't cared for properly. Some of their tanks had dead corydoras in today and they had a holding tank outside with what looked like 4 dead shubunkins. The GBR's looked fine thankfully.

Thanks for the suggestion but I beat you to it! [DOUBLEPOST=1404581815][/DOUBLEPOST]





sciencefiction said:


> *If somebody here had GBR fry, what would you feed them and how often would you do so?*
> 
> _You feed any fry as much as they can possibly take and you can manage by keeping the water quality perfect, providing all the essentials needed for them to develop. It's the most important stage of their growth when if certain stuff is missing or not enough it will impact their growth, well being, current/future health, appearance, size, survival, etc...I'd feed them with manufactured high protein fry dedicated food and some live food variety if you can get it. This way they'll get everything they need.
> _
> *Is there a stage of their growth where they will refuse any food?*
> _When they still have their yolk sac attached within the first 24-48 hrs after hatching. Fish refuse to eat when not feeling well generally for one or another reason. With fry it's critical to have them eating one way or another. The reason could be as small as the tank being too big and they can't find the food or the tank too small and water quality is tipping all the time.
> But when they are too small it's hard seeing them eat to be honest. You should judge by the growth rate, if no growth, you have a problem. For example for me the same species of corys sometimes grew up incredibly fast when I was keeping them well, other spawns which I didn't keep as well grew up twice as slow and weren't as healthy, I had some losses but not major as I stepped up in time.
> _
> *And lastly, does anybody vaguely know how many fry inevitably die, if any?*
> _This would largely depend on many factors. Some may have a 100% survival rate, some 5%. User errors, inexperience and genetics come into play as well.  See above example.
> 
> And sometimes regardless of how well you keep them, you will have runts no matter what. They won't be the most beautiful fish but they can be as healthy as any other. You decide which ones to use in breeding projects._



Thanks for your input. I personally think they are growing but I think this growth may have come from the fact that they received some nourishment from having consumed the yolk sac. At this stage, its as though they will only eat stuff thats right in front of them which makes me think that the tank should be full of artificial plants or other objects where the fry food will drop onto for them to eat. The fry food is currently sitting on the base of the aquarium where it's being ignored.


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## sciencefiction

mark4785 said:


> they will only eat stuff thats right in front of them which makes me think that the tank should be full of artificial plants or other objects where the fry food will drop onto for them to eat. The fry food is currently sitting on the base of the aquarium where it's being ignored..


 
Yes, this tend to happen. Sometimes you've got to stick the food under their nose and they can be too skittish and swim away while doing so.  Just shower them with fresh food, remove old food, do plenty of water changes and hope for the best


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## Michael W

Mark by any chance do you have substrate in the grow out tank? Having tried breeding Apistogrammas before I can tell you that having sand in the bottom of the grow out tank will benefit the fries as they grow up. The fry could eat from micro-organisms from the sand and it also gets the fry accustomed to sifting through the sand as they progress. Many breeders will place a small amount of sand to encourage this behaviour since they are Eartheaters. Have you also considered almond leaves too as a long term source of food for the smallest of fry?

Michael.


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## mark4785

Michael W said:


> Mark by any chance do you have substrate in the grow out tank? Having tried breeding Apistogrammas before I can tell you that having sand in the bottom of the grow out tank will benefit the fries as they grow up. The fry could eat from micro-organisms from the sand and it also gets the fry accustomed to sifting through the sand as they progress. Many breeders will place a small amount of sand to encourage this behaviour since they are Eartheaters. Have you also considered almond leaves too as a long term source of food for the smallest of fry?
> 
> Michael.



No, I left sand out thinking it would just trap detritus. I may try this but it will make water changes quite a headache as when I syphon the dirty water out I won't be able to place that water in the toilet due to the sand. Sand can cause problems if it gets into the drains I think.

I hadn't realised that almond leaves were a source of food for fry. How long could I place one into the water before it begins to cause water quality problems and how many would suffice for 20 litre fry tank?

Mark.[DOUBLEPOST=1404589910][/DOUBLEPOST]





sciencefiction said:


> Yes, this tend to happen. Sometimes you've got to stick the food under their nose and they can be too skittish and swim away while doing so.  Just shower them with fresh food, remove old food, do plenty of water changes and hope for the best



I've mixed 8 drops of liquifry into a beaker and gently poured it in. This would have "showered" them. I've done a 50% W/C which removed the old food. About 80% of the fry are not visible so my hope is that they have gone into hiding in the artificial plant thats in there. Its quite a dense plant and it has a white base so theres no chance of me seeing them.


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## Michael W

Hi Mark,

I see your concern with sand and cleaning but its worth while although its not necessarily a must but it can help bring out the sifting/ scavenging side of the dwarf cichlids especially the earth eaters. You don't need a big layer of sand, if you don't mind discarding the dirty water in the garden for plants etc it can be worth a try.

Regarding the leaf litter I will just throw it in and leave it there in all honesty. Many keep leaf litters with expensive shrimps until they eat the whole leaf without problems. Here is a link to an article out lining the benefits of leaf litter such as almond leaves for the health of fish as well as decorative properties http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/ 

Michael.


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## sciencefiction

mark4785 said:


> I hadn't realised that almond leaves were a source of food for fry. How long could I place one into the water before it begins to cause water quality problems and how many would suffice for 20 litre fry tank?


 
They will not cause water quality problems so put as often and as many as you like, you don't even have to remove them as they break down though that may not go down without brown particle dust. If your water is too soft they can have an effect on the Kh and cause the Ph to drop so in this case don't put too many at once. I can't remember but one leaf per 10G...someone else might be more clued to soft water.[DOUBLEPOST=1404590833][/DOUBLEPOST]I agree with Michael, a thin layer of sand is a good thing. Especially if fry are on the bottom as clear bottom develops bacteria that can harm fry if not wiped often.


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## mark4785

Michael W said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I see your concern with sand and cleaning but its worth while although its not necessarily a must but it can help bring out the sifting/ scavenging side of the dwarf cichlids especially the earth eaters. You don't need a big layer of sand, if you don't mind discarding the dirty water in the garden for plants etc it can be worth a try.
> 
> Regarding the leaf litter I will just throw it in and leave it there in all honesty. Many keep leaf litters with expensive shrimps until they eat the whole leaf without problems. Here is a link to an article out lining the benefits of leaf litter such as almond leaves for the health of fish as well as decorative properties http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/
> 
> Michael.



I will look for a bag of natural sand on the internet and add a very thin layer of it when it arrives. I will also look for the almond leaves that you've mentioned.

I do have a bag of catappa leaves. Are these just as useful? I've never bothered using them as I know they can drop the pH and KH very quickly causing crypt melt and who know's what for the fish.[DOUBLEPOST=1404597036][/DOUBLEPOST]Sorry, just realised that catappa leaves are in fact almond leaves!!


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## mark4785

Bad news everyone... I've tested the fry tank water for ammonia and the result was 0.5 ppm which explains why most of the fry are not visible.


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## sciencefiction

The joys of fry tanks....
Sorry about the little ones, it's still not too late to save the rest if water gets back to normal. It's probably the reason they don't eat. I personally use tetra baby min as powder food, it doesn't ruin the water like hikari or liquifry,  although one still need to be cautious. I am sure I've read about better ones but I haven't tried them.

As for the almond leaves, with a water like mine with a kh of 8 it has absolutely no effect to the ph, the kh goes down to 4 maybe but I add tons of them at a time.


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## mark4785

sciencefiction said:


> The joys of fry tanks....
> Sorry about the little ones, it's still not too late to save the rest if water gets back to normal. It's probably the reason they don't eat. I personally use tetra baby min as powder food, it doesn't ruin the water like hikari or liquifry,  although one still need to be cautious. I am sure I've read about better ones but I haven't tried them.
> 
> As for the almond leaves, with a water like mine with a kh of 8 it has absolutely no effect to the ph, the kh goes down to 4 maybe but I add tons of them at a time.



Yes, sadly, the food that was mean't to help them killed them, probably because I was panicking and adding a lot, but then again, I didn't exceed the product feeding guidelines. I'm determined to give this a second attempt at some point but I'm going to let Mr. Ram and Mrs. Ram "bring up" the second batch of fry. Meanwhile, I've added some walter worm mixture to a gloopy substance of oatmeal and yeast so that I can feed this to the fry. The walter worm mixture that I added has been in an air tight bag for 5 days; would this have made the mixture defunct in anyway?

And thanks to Idcgroomer, I will start another culture off of the other type of worm.

As soon as the second batch of fry are here I'll let everyone know and document my progress. I'll let the parents take care of the fry as long as possible but when the fry get to a certain size I will put them in a floating hatchery/fry net in the main tank as the parents are well known for spontaneously eating their young!


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## Lindy

Why don't you use one of the hang on holding/breeding box such as the Marina one I reviewed in the inverts forum? I use it for holding crystal/hybrid offspring. Tank water is circulated in the box so there is a constant supply of clean water from the parent tank. The air used to lift water into the box also gets lots of oxygen in.
Did the banana worms I set you arrive?


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## mark4785

ldcgroomer said:


> Why don't you use one of the hang on holding/breeding box such as the Marina one I reviewed in the inverts forum? I use it for holding crystal/hybrid offspring. Tank water is circulated in the box so there is a constant supply of clean water from the parent tank. The air used to lift water into the box also gets lots of oxygen in.
> Did the banana worms I set you arrive?



I'd be quite concerned that any left over food might rot in the same fashion that it did in the fry tank. If this happened and the water quality became worse I'd lose all the fry and the parent stock.

The banana worms did arrive but I've been ill with a stomach bug which mean't I only opened the envelope a few days ago.[DOUBLEPOST=1405629332][/DOUBLEPOST]I thought I'd add that the parent GBR's are currently taking it in turns to guard 40 more fertilised eggs. I'm not decided as to whether I want to set the fry tank up or not as it might be futile in that its troublesome keeping the water quality within normal range and theres never any sign of life in these worm cultures that I keep setting up .


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## Lindy

The nematodes require oxygen to survive. If you don't provide air they die. Pretty basic stuff really.


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## mark4785

ldcgroomer said:


> The nematodes require oxygen to survive. If you don't provide air they die. Pretty basic stuff really.



They had plentiful oxygen as there were holes in the container lid. I didn't want to remove the lid as I was thinking the worms may crawl out. Additionally, there is a pungent smell created by the yeast and some of the cultures I've used so I kept the lid firmly on so that the smell was contained.


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## Lindy

I'm sorry, I thought you said you only opened the envelope a few days ago meaning they had been in sealed packet for p


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## mark4785

ldcgroomer said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you said you only opened the envelope a few days ago meaning they had been in sealed packet for p



Apologies for the confusion. I'm referring to the walter worm culture that I tried initially.


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## Lindy

Sorry, that they'd been in sealed packet for several days


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## Lindy

You should have loads of banana worms by now then.


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## mark4785

ldcgroomer said:


> You should have loads of banana worms by now then.



Unfortunately not as I threw the envelope contents away as it had been stud in the envelope for many days while I recuperated.

Thanks for sending them, but as the time came to use them, the fry had passed on and I'd contracted food poisoning and still have the food poisoning!


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## John P Coates

I've only just discovered this thread. Very young fry are often fed infusoria, which is a cocktail of microscopic organisms. Following this, microworms are a good choice and easy to culture. I've had success with infusoria, which can also be cultured at home but be careful where you get your live starter from. There is oodles of info about infusoria on the internet. Just google it. One thing that is very important when feeding tiny fry is to have live food as the fry are attracted to things that move. Liquifry can be used as a food source for infusoria.

You can be fully prepared next time.

JPC


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