# FE and safety



## SmallestFrog (6 Feb 2013)

Hi all,

I'm thinking about switching over to a FE set-up, but I have avoided it in the past because, well, of this:


What sort of safety precautions should I be aware of when fitting a reg to a CO2 FE? Am I right in saying the reg must be at the off position when fitting it? And when you turn the FE on, you take the pin out, depress the handle... then what? Do you do this before you turn the reg on? Or after?

Sorry for the silly questions - I know nothing about high pressure bottles, and don't want to kill myself, even for some very nice plants


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## krazypara3165 (7 Feb 2013)

Cant believe ive never seen that episode! Best way ive found is make sure everythings off,  put it all together SLOWLY depress handle. If there is a leak your only releasing a tiny amount. Onfe its depressed all the way then open your valve. The problem is not setting it up, you need to make sure its in a secure posistion or location as the danger is knocking it iver and snapoing the reg off.


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## ceg4048 (7 Feb 2013)

Umm..avoid using a steel guillotine to chop off your cylinder valve?

Cheers,


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## Ady34 (7 Feb 2013)

Does it not tell you everything you need to know here?:
Fire extinguisher CO2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Cheerio,


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## LondonDragon (7 Feb 2013)

People make more of it than its necessary! a 2kg bottle most likely won't have that kind of pressure anyway and empty in no time. If you don't feel that comfortable get 500g disposable bottles!


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## ian_m (7 Feb 2013)

Mythbusters are using very very large cylinders with air (? or N2) at 300bar. An FE is liquid CO2 at only 50bar, can't compare like with like.


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## biffster (7 Feb 2013)

i have see a welding bottle of co2 go off like that when been dropped and knocked the valve 
off i have also seen an acetylene bottle go up after a flash back and i mean go up like a rocket 
after blowing the soft point out in the bottom of the bottle but i dont think a FE would go off like that 
i would wonder about brewery co2 bottle though


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## ian_m (7 Feb 2013)

biffster said:


> i would wonder about brewery co2 bottle though


There have been quite a few documented cases of brewery CO2 bottles bursting with injuries and considerable damage....however these were where the cylinder had been abused. I think they were where the pub landlord was filling smaller cylinders from a larger one and the CO2 was not dry, thus causing condensation in the cylinder and corrosion leading to the cylinder bursting. Also the cylinders were way beyond there end of life date as stamped on the cylinder. If he had returned the cylinders to be refilled at a proper supplier none of this would have happened as they refill via moisture absorbers, inspect inside of "older cylinders" (5 years ?) and dispose of cylinders beyond their end of life date (10 years I think).

Any FE you buy in UK will be in test date and OK.


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## biffster (7 Feb 2013)

co2 bottles are filled while being stood in vats of freezing cold water 
to prevent condensation forming in the bottles from what i have been 
told i have a mate who fills compressed air for the divers and also co2
for paint ballers i dare say he could do my co2 cylinder for my plants
i will have to ask him


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## ian_m (7 Feb 2013)

CO2 are not usually placed in water to fill as they are being filled with liquid CO2, though often the cylinders are pre-chilled so as to not waste liquid CO2 filling. They are also filled by weight not pressure, filled to 68% capacity only.

Compressed air cylinders are different and are cooled at they are generally filled from a compressor (or storage tank) and do get warm/hot as filled.

Paint ballers generally have moved to air now (last time I played everyone was air) as gives more consistent firing. They just attach cylinder to a bigger tank and open valves. No need to cool.


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## biffster (7 Feb 2013)

even compressed air tanks are stood in cold water when being filled (they get very hot )
the rig for filling co2 bottles is pretty impressive i wonder how long
it will be before you see a paint baller with a cylinder on his back like
a diver so e can fire more shots lol


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## SmallestFrog (10 Feb 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Umm..avoid using a steel guillotine to chop off your cylinder valve?
> 
> Cheers,


 
Just to be clear, I do know the difference between fitting a reg and purposely bursting open a pressurised cyclinder. I don't think its unreasonable to ask questions of safety, considering the lethal potential here?

Thank you (everyone else, anyway) for your replies.


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## SmallestFrog (10 Feb 2013)

Ady34 said:


> Does it not tell you everything you need to know here?:
> Fire extinguisher CO2 | UK Aquatic Plant Society
> Cheerio,


Not specifically about how safe it is/isn't no.


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## geoffbark (26 Feb 2013)

I personally think that it is un safe to use a FE set up, the purpose of a FE is to put out fires, in industry anything that has been modified for a different use is not allowed and the HSE would back that up. Ask yourself would you be allowed to modify an FE in work or would you have to get a cylinder with a shut off valve?

And they look crap next to your fancy expensive glassware!!!


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## ian_m (27 Feb 2013)

geoffbark said:


> Ask yourself would you be allowed to modify an FE in work or would you have to get a cylinder with a shut off valve?


Yes I have installed, for work FE's for purposes they we not intended and safety officer had no issues, other than making sure can't be knocked over (which is why FE's are wall hung or placed in a free standing holder. They were installed in 19" equipment racks, with a pipe to take CO2 to a solenoid valve and "meltable" pipe in top of rack. If there was a fire in the rack, the pipe melts and discharges the CO2, job done. Solenoid is necessary to isolate the CO2 when door was open. FE handle held shut with clamp. Job done. Absolutely no safety issues at all.


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## NattyAntlers (27 Feb 2013)

Been running 600g disposable bottles until I got my first 2kg FE this last weekend and after confirming that my reg (a Hydor green NRG im afraid) would fit etc, it did but not without difficulties I stepped outside complete with large coat and gloves on, blanket to cover the FE earplugs in just in case it went bang and safety goggles and pressed down on the lever...


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## Ian Holdich (27 Feb 2013)

I accidentally opened up a 500g bottle im my arms before, it was just a bit loud. The pressure wasn't that bad tbh.


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## ian_m (27 Feb 2013)

NattyAntlers said:


> Been running 600g disposable bottles until I got my first 2kg FE this last weekend and after confirming that my reg (a Hydor green NRG im afraid) would fit etc, it did but not without difficulties I stepped outside complete with large coat and gloves on, blanket to cover the FE earplugs in just in case it went bang and safety goggles and pressed down on the lever...


Don't tell me....
1. It exploded, removing both your hands and crippling next doors puppy.
2. It froze both your hands which have now been amputated due to frost bite.
3. CO2 went everywhere, put neighbours fire out but asphyxiated you and neighbour.
4. Went "psst" and nothing happened..


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## NattyAntlers (27 Feb 2013)

ian_m said:


> Don't tell me....
> 1. It exploded, removing both your hands and crippling next doors puppy.
> 2. It froze both your hands which have now been amputated due to frost bite.
> 3. CO2 went everywhere, put neighbours fire out but asphyxiated you and neighbour.
> 4. Went "psst" and nothing happened..



None of the above, nothing except the high pressure dial went to 52, less exciting than screwing on a disposable bottle were your franticly turning the reg so as to loose as little co2 as possible while it hisses out like an angry snake, was almost disappointed and felt a bit daft.


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## Martin cape (27 Feb 2013)

ian_m said:


> Don't tell me....
> 1. It exploded, removing both your hands and crippling next doors puppy.
> 2. It froze both your hands which have now been amputated due to frost bite.
> 3. CO2 went everywhere, put neighbours fire out but asphyxiated you and neighbour.
> 4. Went "psst" and nothing happened..



Mine is no. 4 

Moved onto pub style now. That video is cool though. Our lass better not see it lol


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## geoffbark (1 Mar 2013)

ian_m said:


> Yes I have installed, for work FE's for purposes they we not intended and safety officer had no issues, other than making sure can't be knocked over (which is why FE's are wall hung or placed in a free standing holder. They were installed in 19" equipment racks, with a pipe to take CO2 to a solenoid valve and "meltable" pipe in top of rack. If there was a fire in the rack, the pipe melts and discharges the CO2, job done. Solenoid is necessary to isolate the CO2 when door was open. FE handle held shut with clamp. Job done. Absolutely no safety issues at all.



Guys/Gals

As the topic is for safety, and being a registered safety officer. 
It is not ok to modify a FE and keeping the handle pressed down with a clamp or tape or zip tie etc is not safe. 
How ever if you wish to take a FE and change its use and have a valve fitted instead of handle this is ok as long as it is tested by a registered company.


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## Solex (1 Mar 2013)

We take these things into a fire, so yeah they are pretty safe until you start chopping of the valve or drill holes in the bottle. And keep them upright when in use.

Just make sure that they get their checks every few years (assuming that the UK has these tests)

Have a nice day!
Lexy


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## NattyAntlers (1 Mar 2013)

geoffbark said:


> Guys/Gals
> 
> As the topic is for safety, and being a registered safety officer.
> It is not ok to modify a FE and keeping the handle pressed down with a clamp or tape or zip tie etc is not safe.
> How ever if you wish to take a FE and change its use and have a valve fitted instead of handle this is ok as long as it is tested by a registered company.


 
Having just changed to an FE please can you say why it is not safe, how an accident might occur and what accidents have occurred when they have been used in this way?
What accidents can happen if an FE goes beyond its test date when discharging the FE in the way we do as opposed to filling it?
I don't doubt your expertise in this only that telling me just that its not ok does not allow me to make an informed choice.


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## ian_m (1 Mar 2013)

NattyAntlers said:


> Having just changed to an FE please can you say why it is not safe, how an accident might occur and what accidents have occurred when they have been used in this way?


Misusing an FE can cause you to fall off your chair, unless you are wearing the correct safety gear....


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## NattyAntlers (1 Mar 2013)

All that co2 going to waste brings a tear to my eyes, does look like fun though, think I will put my tank on wheels then if anything does go wrong it will just roll around the floor a bit.


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## NattyAntlers (4 Mar 2013)

Just picked up another 2 full 2kg FE with an use before date  of 2017 for the grand price of £10.50, I have now stockpiled enough for 2 years use at the current rate.


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## discusdan (4 Mar 2013)

where are you getting them from for that price?


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## NattyAntlers (5 Mar 2013)

I got lucky with a local Ebay listing for those 2, starting price was £10.00, had one bid at that price then I jumped in with 5 secs to go.
The first 2kg one cost £10.00 but with £11.00 P&P 

There were a couple of different buy it now listings locally for other 2kg at £9.99 and £11.99 but I had to stop myself from buying more.


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## mal blackburn (5 Mar 2013)

Its all DIY and using a fe or any pressurised cylinder should be treated with some modicum of respect. I have never before used any type of pressurised container before and  just recently purchased a 2kg fe and an UpAqua reg. It went together easily albeit a few minor teething adjustments to set the correct co2 level. And i think it looks pretty cool free standing next to my tank. I might secure it but i dont have children or animals running around that may cause any concern. Just got to watch out for the missus and her vacuum cleaner.

Thanks


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## ian_m (6 Mar 2013)

mal blackburn said:


> Its all DIY and using a fe or any pressurised cylinder should be treated with some modicum of respect. I have never before used any type of pressurised container before and just recently purchased a 2kg fe and an UpAqua reg. It went together easily albeit a few minor teething adjustments to set the correct co2 level. And i think it looks pretty cool free standing next to my tank. I might secure it but i dont have children or animals running around that may cause any concern. Just got to watch out for the missus and her vacuum cleaner.


The only reliable CO2 cylinder incidents I could find were all related to the much bigger pub gas cylinders. Corrosion and bursting, due to self refilling with damp CO2 in cylinders beyond test date and asphyxiation in cellars due to CO2 after knocking over the cylinder and breaking the valve/neck off.


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## LondonDragon (6 Mar 2013)

Purchased two 5Kg this morning  £50+delivery! note delivery for second item is cheaper!

 5kg Co2 Fire Extinguisher | eBay

Have been purchasing from this supplier for 3 years now!


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## linkinruss (6 Mar 2013)

How do you dispose of the FE once empty and have no intention of refilling?
Was about to go ahead and order a 2kg bottle until I wondered about the above.


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## ian_m (6 Mar 2013)

Some FE places will take them back, but generally they don't deal with the public and/or are not interested if not theirs. Some council tips will take them, one of my local ones will "if supplier won't" and other tip won't.


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## niru (6 Mar 2013)

Hey guys

I too have a 5 kg CO2 FE with a nice ON-OFF valve fitted by a reputed company that deals with industrial gases & fillings. I had to buy the cylinder, and before each refill, those guys check & reconfirm if things are well & correct. Good thing is that there is an insurance coverage for this similar to what the company gives to industrial clients. Refill for 5 kg CO2 is only about £30..

Luckily for me, their client representative owns a marine tank, and knows the needs of CO2 in FW tanks. So each visit, we talk about our tanks' progresses & share pictures..

Guess its a worth spending on a good quality cylinder & refill company. Mine empty cylinder is 8.74 kg and co2 is 68% filled giving a 65 bar pressure. With my current timings and bps, this lasts me only about 5-6 months at most on 1 tank (

cheers


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## tubamanandy (6 Mar 2013)

What I did was get an account with my local Fire Extinguisher company - now I simply get re-filled bottle straight to my door at a charge of about £18/refilled bottle incl. VAT - as I've used a reputable company, I shouldnt have any issues with old bottles/incorrect filling etc etc


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## ian_m (6 Mar 2013)

The guy that supplies my FE said he has never seen or heard of an extinguisher exploding or even corroding away. Most common failure is slow leak (or more likely someone used it) or stuck pin due to dirt or corrosion. These are all spotted hopefully during yearly checks. Usually replaced quite a while before 10 year cylinder life.

Most common abuse is letting one off as a joke behind someone. Frost burns, injury due to falling off chair and change of pants required are most common results.

As for use with fish, perfectly safe, just ensure can't be knocked over so regulator doesn't get damaged.


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## ian_m (26 Mar 2013)

For all of you worrying about modifying FE handles with tape, cable ties etc, above is a picture of a FE with two holes in handle. Upper set is where the pin normally goes, to prevent the handle being depressed and lower set for holding the handle closed "when used in a fixed installation" for example installing in electrical switch cabinet (or a fish tank ).


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