# From Reef to Planted



## andyseatrout (21 Dec 2010)

Hi, I'm new to the forum and about to embark on a large planted aquarium.

I have been running a reef tank for the last three years and have decided to close this down and make the switch to a planted tank, primarily due to the cost of running 3 x 250W halides. I would like a fairly heavily planted tank with some clear space to give the feeling of depth and I have decided to use this tank as inspiration:

http://www.bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascap ... Tank08.htm

The tank itself is 160 x 60 x 55cm with two rear overflows and I am going to continue to run a sump which is 132 x 38 x 41cm. Accounting for displacement, I will have approx 580 litres or 127 gallons of water. The equipment that I will continue to use is as follows:

Eheim compact 5000 - as a return pump, fed through two jacuzzi style nozzles towards the top RHS
Tunze 6080 powerhead (8500 lph), Tunze 6045 (4500 lph) and possibly a Koralia 2 (2300lph) for flow
A phosphate reactor to run carbon, if needed
ATC 800 to control heating and cooling (with 1 heater and several fans)
150W envirolight lamp with reflector to reverse light a section of the sump to keep up O2 levels at night.
I also have an independent 4 pump dosing unit that I could use to dose fertilisers as and when the need arises.

For lighting, I have just purchased an ATI sunpower unit which will run either 4 or 6 80W T5's, depending on how many I need to run. In any event, I plan to have part of the photoperiod running with 2 tubes and part running with either 4 or all 6. I plan to use ADA Amazonia as the substrate with RO/DI water.

I have also purchased a TMC regulator with solenoid valve to enable me to run CO2 from a FE.

I am still in the process of selling my marine livestock, so I can then shut down and clean the tank and equipment. I am still at the planning stage, so open to any suggestions to change and/or improve my plans.

Currently, I am a bit stuck with the idea of CO2. Initially I thought that I would be able to simply run an UP aqua inline diffuser (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT) on the outlet of my return pump and just get away with that, but,

a) it won't fit onto the 19/27mm tube
b) I don't want CO2 bubbles being visible in the tank

If I am going to use this pump to drive the CO2 I think I will have to use a reactor, so I am please looking for advice about which one to use and where to get one from. 

I also like the look of this bubble counter and wondered if anyone had any feedback on it? (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT)

Please could someone also tell me the best CO2 to use and where to get it from? I am based in Southampton.

Finally, I would like this set up to be as low maintenance as possible and keep the start up costs down. If I use the ADA Amazonia, would I really benefit from using the power sand as well, or would I still get good results using the aquasoil on its own?

Looking forward to hearing from you and thanks in advance for your advice.

Andy


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## Themuleous (21 Dec 2010)

Hi and welcome to the forum.

First off, decide what you want from the tank and how much effort you are willing to put in.

To me a low maintenance tank is one that can be left for several weeks with just fish feeding going on and a water change every month or so.  If that's what you are after, then you could probably forget most of what you've suggested.  Keep the lighting low i.e. no more than two bulbs and you can forget CO2, ADA soil, and fertilisers.  Just use 2mm gravel and some easy to grow plants 

If you want to use more light then you'll almost certainly have to go down the co2, fertiliser, regular water change route, which isn't exactly difficult but does require more effort, esp doing a weekly 50% water change on a tank that size.

As a last note, if you do use co2 I would considered not using the sump as you'll probably find you waste quite a lot of co2.  That said I guess, on a tank this size you'll want a large co2 cylinder anyway, one of the pub type ones, which'll last a while anyway so it may not be a major issue.

It'll be an evolving process, but hopefully that gives you something to start with.

Sam


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## andyseatrout (21 Dec 2010)

Hi Sam, thanks for your input.

It is the water changes that are my main worry. I do have a 48 x 15 x 18" tank that I can use to preheat water and I can pump it directly from there to the main aquarium, but that would be my maximum easily available water change (212 litres = approx. 36% ). Is this something that I could "get away with" if I carried this out as a weekly water change?

I would like to keep the sump to keep the other equipment out of the tank and use it as a filter with sintered glass and an area for some fast growing plants, although I do realise that I will be loosing some CO2 by doing this. It will also reduce the cost of setting up as I will not have to invest in a very expensive external filter. 

I am aiming for a well planted tank where I can grow whatever I want to and stock fairly heavily with a mixed community. If I can achieve this using the resources I have available along with the equipment I am planning on purchasing, I will carry on with the planning and purchasing, otherwise I will have to have a rethink .....


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## ceg4048 (21 Dec 2010)

Hi,
Firstly, your water changes can be made a lot simpler if you just forget about using RO water, which is completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive in a planted tank. That way, you are not limited to just what you can fit in an auxiliary tank but can pull water straight from tap. Unless you have special fish requirements or unless your tap supply is high in some unusual toxin it is pointless to be so dedicated to RO. You can even use a combination of RO+Tap ifyou do have special fish requirements.

Secondly, you would do well to study the thread My venture into my new 760 ltr aquarium which is a pretty good account showing how the OP tackled the issues of dealing with using a sump.

Thirdly, a highly lit CO2 enriched tank cannot also be a low maintenance tank. These are mutually exclusive concepts, however the maintenance requirement of an enriched tank can be ameliorated somewhat by minimizing both the spectral energy as well as the level of CO2 enrichment. The fact that you have such excellent flow potential in the sump gives you the ability to use lees light/CO2 and to maximize the distribution of the gas while minimizing the injection rate. As discussed in that thread link above though, you must solve the problems presented by almost all sumps by minimizing the CO2 loss in the sump. Once you achieve that and once you have a good distribution technique you can then lower the injection rate and still have good growth performance.

I see no reason whatsoever, that given the incredibly potent set of equipment you listed above, that you cannot achieve at least some of your objectives.

I have no idea what "150W envirolight lamp with reflector to reverse light a section of the sump to keep up O2 levels at night." means as I'm not familiar with reef technology but pending further clarification I'd say this does not sound good. Can you clarify the basics of this technology?

Again, 6 80W T5 bulbs would result in such incredible spectral energy input that you would need mammoth levels of CO2 and the maintenance requirements would be debilitating.

ADA Amazonia is an excellent substrate choice, but is very expensive. There are plenty of low cost ways. No need to spend the amount of money necessary for all those soil supplements.

There is no "best CO2". CO2 is CO2 so pub cylinders, B.O.C., wherever you can find it is all good.

Cheers,


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## foxfish (21 Dec 2010)

I can see where you are coming from being a reef keeper myself, I love all the filters, reactors & everything high tec that goes with reef tanks LOL.
However you dont need to be so technical with a freshwater tank, its really quite basic in comparison. You do need to get the balance right though - thorougher Co2 distribution around the tank is really important as is adequate fertilization matched to your lighting level.
Basically three aspects to get right & you will see your plants thriving, of course making your tank look like a living picture is not so easy!
I use sumps on my tanks & as has been pointed out, they do require more gas unless you really want to be more tec about not losing it?
Co2 is relatively cheap - sumps are great - at least that is my opinion but, to be honest definitely not necessary.
I have a semi automatic water changing arrangement on my plant tank that removes about 50% of the tank water & tops back up straight from the mains supply via a dechlorinator. Again not necessary but, fun!


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## andyseatrout (21 Dec 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Firstly, your water changes can be made a lot simpler if you just forget about using RO water, which is completely unnecessary and actually counterproductive in a planted tank. That way, you are not limited to just what you can fit in an auxiliary tank but can pull water straight from tap. Unless you have special fish requirements or unless your tap supply is high in some unusual toxin it is pointless to be so dedicated to RO. You can even use a combination of RO+Tap ifyou do have special fish requirements.



Living in Southampton we have very hard water with high levels of both phosphates and nitrates. Although I realise that the phosphates and nitrates would be used by the plants and I would be stripping out what I would then be replacing, to my mind at least I would be dosing a measured and more importantly steady quantity if I used RO water. 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Secondly, you would do well to study the thread My venture into my new 760 ltr aquarium which is a pretty good account showing how the OP tackled the issues of dealing with the issues arising when using a sump.



What a read and what a tank - shame not all the pictures were available. The loss of CO2 via the sump, more specifically the overflows has been something that I have thought about. Having twin standpipes controlled with valves, I can ensure that no air gets dragged down one pipe and only a little gets dragged down the other. I have previously managed to get both with no air and I am confident that I will be able to do the same in the future. I will however think about how I can seal the sump and fit coverglass over the tank as I will initially be relying on a 2kg fire extinguisher as my CO2 supply! 



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Thirdly, a highly lit CO2 enriched tank cannot also be a low maintenance tank. These are mutually exclusive concepts, however the maintenance requirement of an enriched tank can be ameliorated somewhat by minimizing both the spectral energy as well as the level of CO2 enrichment. The fact that you have such excellent flow potential in the sump gives you the ability to use lees light/CO2 and to maximize the distribution of the gas while minimizing the injection rate. As discussed in that thread link above though, you must solve the problems presented by almost all sumps by minimizing the CO2 loss in the sump. Once you achieve that and once you have a good distribution technique you can then lower the injection rate and still have good growth performance.



I have just found out about the Dannerle Cyclo Turbo Diffusor which is expandable and even with the expansion kit and pump to power it is still cheaper than the Aqua Medic 1000 and I am hoping will provide me with my initial CO2 saturated water.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I see no reason whatsoever, that given the incredibly potent set of equipment you listed above, that you cannot achieve at least some of your objectives.
> 
> I have no idea what "150W envirolight lamp with reflector to reverse light a section of the sump to keep up O2 levels at night." means as I'm not familiar with reef technology but pending further clarification I'd say this does not sound good. Can you clarify the basics of this technology?



Currently I am running this lamp at night when the main tank lights are off in order to reduce pH swings. The idea is that the plants growing in the sump will absorb some of the CO2 being produced by the tank inhabitants and bacteria which would otherwise during the day be absorbed by photosynthetic algae. These plants also act as a form of nutrient export and provide a habitat for shrimp etc. to breed which then occasionally pass into the main tank as a food source.

I just thought that this might be a good practice to carry over to a planted tank for the same reasons, including nutrient export.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Again, 6 80W T5 bulbs would result in such incredible spectral energy input that you would need mammoth levels of CO2 and the maintenance requirements would be debilitating.



I would most likely only run 4 tubes at any one time. I would have two come on to start with, followed by a switch to four for the main photoperiod, phasing back to two again for the end of the photoperiod. I am hoping that this would have a less shocking effect on the fish.

All truth told, I was going to buy a 4 tube unit and only when I spoke to my supplier about it did he point out how narrow this unit was. He had another customer that recently bought a 6 tube unit, realised it was too narrow for his needs and wanted an 8 tube unit. This then provided me with the opportunity to get a 6 tube unit with a better spread of light for the same price as a 4 bulb unit, so I went for it!



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> ADA Amazonia is an excellent substrate choice, but is very expensive. There are plenty of low cost ways. No need to spend the amount of money necessary for all those soil supplements.



The price is really putting me off as well, but from what I have read this is the best stuff, especially if I decide I don't want to go down the EI route, which I am really unsure about due to the massive water changes involved. I would only be using the Amazonia and not any power sand or other additions, but I would hope that I could rely on this alone (along with lighting, CO2 and flow) to start me off.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> There is no "best CO2". CO2 is CO2 so pub cylinders, B.O.C., wherever you can find it is all good.



The tank is in our lounge with no suitable adjoining room for storing a large CO2 cylinder, so the only suitable place is in the cabinet. I can easily fit a 2kg FE under there, so I am hoping that I can get a 5kg FE in there instead. If I go through that too quickly, I will have to think about other options, byt I do have a couple of friendly pub landlords that might be able to help!

Cheers,


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## andyseatrout (22 Dec 2010)

foxfish said:
			
		

> I can see where you are coming from being a reef keeper myself, I love all the filters, reactors & everything high tec that goes with reef tanks LOL.
> However you dont need to be so technical with a freshwater tank, its really quite basic in comparison. You do need to get the balance right though - thorougher Co2 distribution around the tank is really important as is adequate fertilization matched to your lighting level.
> Basically three aspects to get right & you will see your plants thriving, of course making your tank look like a living picture is not so easy!
> I use sumps on my tanks & as has been pointed out, they do require more gas unless you really want to be more tec about not losing it?
> ...



What size tanks are you running, how much CO2 are you getting through and what size cylinders are you using? I am assuming (maybe incorrectly!) that you have a dedicated fish room? 

Please could you provide more detail about your semi automatic water change system?


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## foxfish (22 Dec 2010)

No fish room, I am semi retired now but, I used to build, install & maintain aquariums.

Your tank is not that big as to use up  2k of gas in less that 6 weeks. However that is a guess as it depends on so many variants.
I would look into an in line C02 diffuser as they are very efficient & cheap at around Â£20!

Re the sump, one way is to recirculate the sump water in the day time (gas on) with only a slow flow through the display tank. Then up the flow at night (gas off) to cleanse the main tank. This is best done with two pumps.

Think very hard about flow within the tank display, imagine it full of plants & see how you are going to spread the gas enriched water evenly.


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## andyseatrout (22 Dec 2010)

foxfish said:
			
		

> No fish room, I am semi retired now but, I used to build, install & maintain aquariums.
> 
> Your tank is not that big as to use up  2k of gas in less that 6 weeks. However that is a guess as it depends on so many variants.
> I would look into an in line C02 diffuser as they are very efficient & cheap at around Â£20!



Thanks for your feedback, that's great to know. I was looking at the UP atomiser connected to my return pump (eheim compact 5000). The return plumbing is split into two and the pipe run equates to about 2m. I was hoping that this would be sufficient to dissolve all of the CO2 before it reached the tank, but I am having second thoughts as

a) I don't want CO2 bubbles racing round the tank;
b) the diameter of the pipe I am using is 19/27 and the UP atomiser only takes 16/22 and I don't really want to restrict the flow from the return pump.

However, if you think that this pipe run anlong with the injection rate that I will have to use will be sufficient to dissolve the CO2 before it reaches the tank, this would definately be a way forward.



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Re the sump, one way is to recirculate the sump water in the day time (gas on) with only a slow flow through the display tank. Then up the flow at night (gas off) to cleanse the main tank. This is best done with two pumps.



I am guessing the reasoning behind this is to reduce the loss of CO2 through the use of the sump? I suppose I could change my plumbing arrangement so that I have a lower powered pump returning CO2 saturated water to the main tank through one of the jacuzzi fittings and the eheim 5000 returning through the other. This however would give me much less of a spread of CO2 saturated water, unless I was able to fit a spray bar to one of these fittings, which I don't know is possible?



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> Think very hard about flow within the tank display, imagine it full of plants & see how you are going to spread the gas enriched water evenly.



With the current arrangement I have, I am very confident that I can easily spread the CO2 enriched water all the way around the tank, but I would be less so if I put the returning water through just one fitting.


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## foxfish (22 Dec 2010)

I can see you are keen to use all your existing marine set up but, to be honest you would probably get better results by fitting two external canisters & not utilising the sump.

You only have look around this forum to see that the most amazing displays are very basic in there design.

I do use a sump but, it was built & designed around a plant tank. I only run a small pump to circulate the sump & tank.
I use an independent pupm to feed & recirculate the C02 via a in line diffuser avoiding the sump completely. My planted tank is drilled each end, I draw water from one end pass it through an eheim 1060 & back to the other end via the diffuser. This is an independent C02 circuit from the sump.

The sump is a basic acrylic tank that contains a bag of bio balls a heater & a power head, the water from the tank flows over some floss - nothing else.

 The benefit is a clutter free display good bio action & easy to clear mechanical filtering, plus a clean surface in the display & a permanent water level in the display.
My marine sumps are very different, they are designed to have a high flow rate & mulible compartments, reactors, trickle filter etc.


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## andyseatrout (22 Dec 2010)

Some of the reasons that I would like to continue to use my sump are the same as yours; easy maintenance, constant water level and clutter free tank (apart from powerheads). Other reasons are that I might want to return to marine in the future and I don't want to redo all the plumbing I have already completed, I also have limited funds, so didn't want to invest in external filters or have the hassle of maintaining them.

If I were to use external filters on just the tank (460 litres) what would you recommend? I do have a Fluval 304 and an Eheim 2213 available, but I would be reluctant to use either of these.


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## ceg4048 (22 Dec 2010)

andyseatrout said:
			
		

> Living in Southampton we have very hard water with high levels of both phosphates and nitrates. Although I realise that the phosphates and nitrates would be used by the plants and I would be stripping out what I would then be replacing, to my mind at least I would be dosing a measured and more importantly steady quantity if I used RO water.


Hello,
    Hard water or soft water has little relevance to the vast majority of the plants available to us. In fact, most of the plants actually do better in hard water. Regardless of the water content, you must still dose a measured quantity of nutrients into the water column. Using tap is such an easy solution to your problem of water changes. You will only be handcuffing yourself unnecessarily by worrying about something that absolutely doesn't matter.  

Southampton water is no worse than Horsham water as regards hardness and yet I had no difficulty whatsoever growing some of the touchiest plants when I lived in Horsham. I even added more hardness to the water just to see where the hardness limitations were. I did not find a limit. I can think of only a handful of plants that do better in soft water and none of those plants are on the list shown on your sample webpage.

Here is a 150 gallon tan on water change day. I just hook up the yellow garden hose, turn the spigot  counterclockwise and sip on my Sunday morning coffee while waiting for it to fill. No stress.






At the end of the day the tank in repose. KH greater than 15, GH greater than 25, conductivity greater than 800 Î¼S/cm. People really need to get over RO. The goal in a high tech planted tank is to achieve excellent CO2, after which all other issues become completely irrelevant.







			
				andyseatrout said:
			
		

> Currently I am running this lamp at night when the main tank lights are off in order to reduce pH swings. The idea is that the plants growing in the sump will absorb some of the CO2 being produced by the tank inhabitants and bacteria which would otherwise during the day be absorbed by photosynthetic algae. These plants also act as a form of nutrient export and provide a habitat for shrimp etc. to breed which then occasionally pass into the main tank as a food source.
> 
> I just thought that this might be a good practice to carry over to a planted tank for the same reasons, including nutrient export.


As foxfish mentions, this is not at all a common practice in freshwater systems and adds complications. Ph swings due to CO2  is not a concern. If the sump lighting is too high for the plants that you have in the sump for the available level of overnight CO2 then this results in algal blooms. If you get it right then it's a brilliant idea, but if it goes wrong then there's no end to your troubles. I would wait a while before trying this.

If you're having difficulty finding a location for a CO2 cylinder, remember that it is not important that the cylinder be located near the tank. You can store the cylinder remotely and use your imagination to run the tubing to the tank. The only penalty is that the volume of air in the tubing causes a longer delay for the gas to get into the tank in the morning but this is not a big deal.

Cheers,


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## foxfish (22 Dec 2010)

Lovery pictures Ceg - Andy you dont need expensive substrate either, all these soils are great & very much in vogue but, you can use sand, gravel, bonsai potting media, cat litter or conurbations of all of them!
I have been experimenting on growing plants without any media & that works too LOL.


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## Always Broke (22 Dec 2010)

Thanks for reading my 760 ltr tank adventure. Note sure why you could not see all the Pictures as they all seam there now.
Nearly 12 months on and here are my views on what I have learnt about equipment 
My Auto water change system is the best thing ever. 50 % on Thursday and again on Sunday straight from the house water supply. I have done away with the pre filters but it is still pre heated for the fish. It still works as good as the day I made it and is 100% reliable. That along with the home brew water top up is my time saver. Most weeks I spend less the 10 mins on the tank , which is perfect for me at the moment. One other thing is don't but cheap timers , spend a bit more and they become super reliable.

My Sump. I have changed some of the media. I now  still have the prefilter sponges which get a trip in the washing MC once a month, then sintered glass , loads of bio balls , No silly fine sponge type stuff that needs looking after all the time. The prefilter sponges are going to get changed for more bio balls.
The return pump is still a Aquamax 10,000 and is running faultless. It has good fitting cover glasses fitted on the sump now.
I still inject my co2 through a ceramic stone into the inlet of an Aquamax 5000 feeding the 10,000 on a "T" but this will be changed after Xmas. It has worked but is very crude and I think wasteful. Watch this space.
 I would not dream of not running a sump for just for maintenance time saving and somewhere to put all the junk.
Just seal it up.

The main tank also has cover glass fitted to 95% of the tank to keep the condensation down in the room its in.

Don,t mess with silly Gas bottles. Go get the biggest you can get. My one is 45Kg. Put it outside where you can find a space and run the pipe and solenoid  power to it. I use 6mm rigid plastic tubing and run it under the floor in the house.
Put a bucket over the top of the bottle and Regulator. I sprayed it all with spay grease as well. 
Dosing Ferts and Trace. I use two dosing pumps  on timers.Works perfectly . I mix up 10 ltrs of each . Just refile when empty which takes 5 mins if you buy spoons that measure your mixes in one heap. Just mix with tap water.

All my fish are fine and my plants. I will change a fair few of them soon , but thats just because I fancy it.

Can't wait to see some pictures.

Simon


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## andyseatrout (22 Dec 2010)

Ok guys, you have all given me lots to think about and thanks for that because this is exactly why I posted here in the first place. You have nearly persuaded me to go tapwater, low cost substrate and sort out a proper water changing system (which is what I should have done a long time ago!)   

Ceg - They are great pictures of a beautiful tank, is that one that you are currenty running? I take it that you at least pre heat your water before you do a water change? Do you treat it with anything to remove the chlorine as well?

You appear to be running at a very high KH - what is the benefit of this? I have been lead to believe that it is far easier to load water with CO2 at a lower KH and this would be a benefit provided by RO water; is this not the case?

If I could just dump a hose in and fill with tapwater for each water change, my life would become far less stressful!

Foxfish - If I can sort out a more suitable way of water changing on a regular basis without my other half throwing me out of my own house, I would gladly part with less cash and use a cheap substrate without the need to rely on the nutrients that would be contained within a substrate like Amazonia. It is clearly the water change issue that I need to get around.

Simon - I must congratulate you on an excellent build. Your craftsmanship is superb and you must be very pleased with what you have achieved. Thanks for taking the time to provide me with some of the knowledge you have built up along the way. If you ever want to come around and help me make a water change system like yours, you would be very welcome!

OK - I could store a large bottle of CO2 outside, or maybe under the stairs, or in the conservatory.

I could also maybe set up something underneath the house or in the loft to assist with water changes.

All ideas would be welcomed please!


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## Always Broke (22 Dec 2010)

andyseatrout said:
			
		

> I could also maybe set up something underneath the house or in the loft to assist with water changes.
> 
> All ideas would be welcomed please!



How do you get your hot water at your Taps.??


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## andyseatrout (22 Dec 2010)

andyseatrout said:
			
		

> I could also maybe set up something underneath the house or in the loft to assist with water changes.
> 
> All ideas would be welcomed please!





			
				Always Broke said:
			
		

> How do you get your hot water at your Taps.??



Well if I take that question at face value I would say that the cold water is fed via a rising main downstairs and upstairs it is fed via the cold water tank; the hot water is gravity fed both upstairs and downstairs, but I don't think you meant it that way ......

I do not have the luxury of a combi boiler, nor the funds to obtain one especially just for my hobby and I cannot rely on the hot water downstairs as the pressure constantly falls away at the kitchen tap.

I do however have a pumped shower that I installed upstairs and it is possible that I could tee off from that to provide hot water. If I am going to make either a fully or semi automated water change system, I would want to do it properly and although I plumbed in the shower upstairs, I would have no idea where to start with this, so I am genuinely asking for help.

I could easily install something in the loft that would be easily accessible or I could do something that was far less accessible underneath the house as the floor is suspended. I had to reinforce the floor to put the tank there in the first place. As an absolute last resort, I could do something in the garage, but that is at the bottom of the garden and has neither water nor electricity.


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## andyseatrout (23 Dec 2010)

OK, have just read the DIY water change, no more buckets thread and now feel a little more in the picture!

I would however still like to set up a permanent fully automated water changer ......


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## ceg4048 (23 Dec 2010)

andyseatrout said:
			
		

> Ceg - They are great pictures of a beautiful tank, is that one that you are currenty running? I take it that you at least pre heat your water before you do a water change? Do you treat it with anything to remove the chlorine as well?


Thanks very much. The tank was torn down not long after the shot was taken. I still have the tank but I've moved around so much since I got to Florida I haven't been able to set it up, especially since the gear is all 220V/50Hz. I didn't do any pre-heating and I didn't add any dechlorinator (but I wouldn't recommend that unilaterally because everyones tap is different and I was just lucky in that regard.)

In addition to the cold water coming from the  outside spigot I would also run a line from a Eheim submersible pump in the nearest bathtub filled with water from the hot water tap. In the winter I would forgo the garden hose and just fill the tub with hot + cold. It was slower but that just gave me more time to read the comics section of the newspaper.



			
				andyseatrout said:
			
		

> You appear to be running at a very high KH - what is the benefit of this?


No benefit at all. Whatever came out of the tap I used without issues and without obsessing over the water chemistry. I only obsess over the following:
CO2 injection.
Flow and distribution.
Cleanliness of the tank and elimination of organic waste.



			
				andyseatrout said:
			
		

> I have been lead to believe that it is far easier to load water with CO2 at a lower KH and this would be a benefit provided by RO water; is this not the case?


No mate, it's not the case at all. That is just an illusion that people choose to believe for various reasons. The solubility of a gas in water is strictly a function of the water's temperature and the partial pressure of the gas. Since we inject CO2 at a pressure above atmospheric via the regulator, the gas dissolves in the liquid the same amount regardless of the presence of any other solute in the water. Check these threads==> Problem with Riccia 
and Stupidly used oyster shell gravel..



			
				andyseatrout said:
			
		

> If I could just dump a hose in and fill with tapwater for each water change, my life would become far less stressful!


Jean-Luc Picard of The Starship Enterprise  says; "Make it so!"

Cheers


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## Always Broke (23 Dec 2010)

I do not add any Dechlorinator to my water change water.Never have done.
So get along to your local plumbing centre and get one of those over the sink water heaters for washing your hands.
Mount that in the cupboard under the tank and plumb the outlet to the tank. Set the temperature of the outlet to your tank Temp. Dose not come any simpler than that . Warm water change water sorted.It dose not mater if its a couple of degrees different . Get out of marine mindset.

Or run both hot and colt from your domestic system to the cabinet . Fit a mixer tap again with the outlet run to the tank.
On the mixed water outlet put a washing MC solenoid valve (about a fiver from ebay) connected to  a switch for manual control. You could do as I have done and use a float switch in your sump to operate it. How simple is that. No more hoses, stored water or any of that rubbish and so simple to do. 

Si

.


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## andyseatrout (23 Dec 2010)

It does look like I am going to have to throw a lot of my "marine thinking" out of the window, but that is not a problem.

I think I will go for the water change option of connecting to the shower hose for the time being and then think about something more permanent if the need arises.

Si, could I ask why you are changing 50% of your water twice weekly? I thought that dosing EI would only require 1 50% water change a week?

I have also made some enquiries about a local supply of akadama and should be able to get 14/16kg bags for Â£11.99 each just around the corner. Could I also ask how your akadama is holding up? The reason for asking is that I have just spoken to this local dealer who has had over 30 years experience in the trade and has been using Akadama for 15 years. She warned me against using it as it has a tendency to break down to a solid lump after a year. She does use it, but only as a top soil and mixes in other things. Now I realise that this is for terrestrial use, but I wouldn't have to rip everything out and start again after just a year. Is there any evidence that this stuff can be used for long term use, which I am assuming Amazonia can?


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## Always Broke (23 Dec 2010)

My Akadama seems just the same as when I put it there to be honest. 
I can do just one water change but the timers are set for two and I can't be bothered to change them ,and it only seams to help , especially as it all happens when I am still asleep .

Simon


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## foxfish (23 Dec 2010)

Andy I only just asked that same question about akadama a few days ago because I also have been using it for many years as a bonsai medium. I asked more about what happens if you disturb the aka in the tank as I assumed it would form a huge cloud of liquidised clay?
Personally I prefer the baked clay cat litter & it is cheaper too but, I am definitely considering aka as a base & topping with cat litter for a future tank.
I have also noticed that levington sell a bonsai soil that states it is also suitable for aquatic plants!


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## andyseatrout (23 Dec 2010)

Always Broke said:
			
		

> My Akadama seems just the same as when I put it there to be honest.
> I can do just one water change but the timers are set for two and I can't be bothered to change them ,and it only seams to help , especially as it all happens when I am still asleep .
> 
> Simon



That's good to know, have you moved any plants recently, planted any new ones or attempted to disturb the Akadama? The reason I ask is to know for sure whether or not it is clumping or breaking down.


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## andyseatrout (23 Dec 2010)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Andy I only just asked that same question about akadama a few days ago because I also have been using it for many years as a bonsai medium. I asked more about what happens if you disturb the aka in the tank as I assumed it would form a huge cloud of liquidised clay?
> Personally I prefer the baked clay cat litter & it is cheaper too but, I am definitely considering aka as a base & topping with cat litter for a future tank.
> I have also noticed that levington sell a bonsai soil that states it is also suitable for aquatic plants!



The cat litter sounds good, but I do not like the colour of it.

With the Levington bonsai soil I assume that would have to be capped as it contains peat and bark. I have nothing against capping it, but it would be a question about what to cap it with. I don't suppose there is a more natural looking cat litter out there?


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## foxfish (23 Dec 2010)

Andy, the cat litter & akadama are very similar colour when wet but the CL looks a bit better to me as it is not so uniform. I think they both look good.
Check out this thread viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8572&p=92994#p92994 especially the links to other similar substrates.
I have no idea about the bonsai soil, it looks the same as the levington mix I have been using for my trees for many years but, now has different packaging! i cant say if it would be of any use to us in a tank or even if it would be safe?


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## andyseatrout (23 Dec 2010)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Andy, the cat litter & akadama are very similar colour when wet but the CL looks a bit better to me as it is not so uniform. I think they both look good.
> Check out this thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 994#p92994 especially the links to other similar substrates.
> I have no idea about the bonsai soil, it looks the same as the levington mix I have been using for my trees for many years but, now has different packaging! i cant say if it would be of any use to us in a tank or even if it would be safe?



Looks too good to be true!

I think I will buy a bag of both readily available types of cat litter, wet it down and see which one I prefer the look of.

Do you use yours uncapped?

Do you use anything underneath it?


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## ceg4048 (24 Dec 2010)

andyseatrout said:
			
		

> Do you use yours uncapped?
> 
> Do you use anything underneath it?


Capping is optional.
See any of the following threads:
What to put under inert substrate?
Improving inert substrates
bulking up eco complete
Flora max V Eco complete

Cheers,


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## andyseatrout (24 Dec 2010)

OK, seems like a very strange thing to be doing on Christmas Eve, but I have got hold of some Tesco's cat litter and rinsed it.

I am actually quite impressed with the way it looks. I still might try the other stuff to see if there is any visual difference, but it looks like I might well save myself a fortune with using this instead of the Amazonia that I had planned on using. Thanks very much for all of the advice so far!

My brother in law is a plumber and I will be seeing him tomorrow, so I will sound him out about helping me with installing a permanent water changing system, although I know he will think I am mad ......


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## foxfish (24 Dec 2010)

We are all mad from a from a non understanding view point mate - welcome to the community LOL & a very merry Christmas to you.....


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## Kosh42-EFG (29 Dec 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> I have no idea what "150W envirolight lamp with reflector to reverse light a section of the sump to keep up O2 levels at night." means as I'm not familiar with reef technology but pending further clarification I'd say this does not sound good. Can you clarify the basics of this technology?



Currently I am running this lamp at night when the main tank lights are off in order to reduce pH swings. The idea is that the plants growing in the sump will absorb some of the CO2 being produced by the tank inhabitants and bacteria which would otherwise during the day be absorbed by photosynthetic algae. These plants also act as a form of nutrient export and provide a habitat for shrimp etc. to breed which then occasionally pass into the main tank as a food source.

I just thought that this might be a good practice to carry over to a planted tank for the same reasons, including nutrient export.
[/quote]

Oddly, this is exactly what I was planning on doing with the middle section of the sump in my new planted setup. Must be a ex-reefer legacy 

I'm going for the nutrient export more than pH control or refugium, though. My tank will be low tech, so I'm planning on surface and emergent plants in the sump with reasonably high lighting. These will shade the water column to hopefully negate algae problems, and where the plants will not be reliant on CO2 in the water column the only limiting factor will be nutrients. These will be regularly harvested to keep excess nutrients to a minimum in the main tank.

It has taken a while for me to lose the reef keeping mentality (I still get urges to hook up an RO unit), but you'll get there.

Welcome, by the way!


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## andyseatrout (16 Jan 2011)

Hi All,

Happy New Year!    

It seems like a long time ago that I last posted and Christmas along with the forum being down have got in the way, but I feel that I have made much progress.

I have finally sold all of my remaining marine livestock and the equipment that I did not want to keep. I have also drained down and cleaned both the tank and the sump - there is still some hard to reach coralline algae within the weirs and I am not sure if I am going to try to remove this using citric acid or not, any thoughts?

I seem to be endlessly cleaning cat litter! I have cleaned 5 bags of the Tesco Value cat litter and one bag of the stuff from pets at home, which is far more coarse and will be used to create some perspective. I am still not sure if I have enough yet and I think the only way of finding out is to get it in there to have a look, although I will have to remove it again as I plan to use Osmocoat and peat moss compost underneath. I am slightly concerned about how light the cat litter is and I can see plants being easily uprooted, but I will cross that bridge when I come to it!

As part of selling off my livestock, I swapped some live rock for a large (83cm tall) CO2 cylinder which is half full. This will not fit within the cabinet, so if I used it I would have to run it from the cupboard under the stairs. I have also come across a problem finding anyone who would be willing to fill it and have approached a couple of local pubs to see if they could help. Insead, I am hoping to have made a contact who will supply me with "out of date" CO2 fire extinguishers on a regular basis for very little cost (we are talking a bottle of wine each time!). Although they are out of date to be used as a fire extinguisher, they should still be fine to use for the aquarium (I hope!).

I have ordered some Rhinox CO2 tubing, non return valves, bubble counter and two in line CO2 atomisers from an auction website and I am planning on using a 600lph Eheim pump with a 12/16mm fitting inline atomiser fed to a Two Little Fishes 150 Phosban Reactor as my CO2 injection method (http://www.twolittlefishies.com/documents/1202405781.pdf). 
The output from this will be fed towards my return pump so that any undissolved CO2 will be fed directly into the tank as microbubbles, unless they dissolve on the way up there. Does this sound like a plan?

I now have my light unit and am about to order T5 tubes for it through Lampspecs; Osram Lumilux HO 880 Skywhite and Sylvania Grolux unless anyone suggests a better combination. I will be ordering three of each and plan on running a maximum of 4 at a time, with only two to start with.

Water changing - I have still not yet come up with a decent plan, but had a conversation with someone today that has got me thinking. He suggested drilling an overflow into the sump and constantly (or nightly) feeding water (RO or tap) into the tank, effectively changing water all of the time. If this would work in conjunction with EI dosing, this would be my easiest way forward and that is my main reason for posting today to get your opinions ......


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## foxfish (16 Jan 2011)

If you can fit a top up ball valve from the mains water supply to your sump then the issue is solved!
A small pupm set to a timer & situated in the sump can then pump water to a drain.
I must admit I dont quite get your C02 diffusion method? 
The simple way would be to fit an in line atomiser from the sump return?


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## andyseatrout (16 Jan 2011)

foxfish said:
			
		

> If you can fit a top up ball valve from the mains water supply to your sump then the issue is solved!
> A small pupm set to a timer & situated in the sump can then pump water to a drain.



Do you mean set up a small daily water change? If you do, I could see that working as I wouldn't have to worry about heating the water and if it were say 10%, the cold water going directly in shouldn't have too much of a drastic effect on the overall temperature.

I like the idea of a ball valve as I might be able to install that without drilling the sump.

This wasn't what I was thinking though. I was actually thinking of running water through an RO unit which would have a pre filter and carbon block, but have the DI removed (yes, I know I haven't quite got over not using RO and it would give me a greater scope with the types of fish I could keep ie. discus!). This would run continuously into the tank and the water it displaced would have to run to a drain. 



			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> I must admit I dont quite get your C02 diffusion method?
> The simple way would be to fit an in line atomiser from the sump return?



I had originally wanted to do just that, but I am using 19/27mm hose on my return pump (Eheim compact 5000) and haven't been able to find an inline atomiser that would fit. The largest fitting that I have found is 16/22mm and the other is 12/16mm, both of which I have ordered.

One reason for using my suggested method is that I do not want to restrict flow from my return as this gives me great circulation within the tank. Another is that I want to dissolve as much of the CO2 as possible before it reaches the tank as I do not want to have microbubbles visible.

The phosban reactor, if used in reverse, is very similar to the AM 1000 in that water enters a large chamber and bubbles flow upwards against the flow of water giving the CO2 more time to dissolve. If they do not dissolve entirely, I want to give them another chance by directing them towards the intake of my return pump so they can be chopped up again by the impellor, then travel through around 1m of pipe before they enter the main tank. Hopefully at this stage there will be no bubbles at all as they will have all dissolved!

Hopefully that makes more sense? Does that sound sensible?

Incidentally, I have been reading a number of posts on the planted tank about microbubbles churned out by reactors producing great growth and pearling, but my head began to hurt after so much reading and I was getting put off by the back biting. Are you aware if this was ever proven?

Which atomiser(s) do you use and do you get complete dissolving of CO2 before it reaches your tank?


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## Kosh42-EFG (16 Jan 2011)

andyseatrout said:
			
		

> This wasn't what I was thinking though. I was actually thinking of running water through an RO unit which would have a pre filter and carbon block, but have the DI removed (yes, I know I haven't quite got over not using RO and it would give me a greater scope with the types of fish I could keep ie. discus!). This would run continuously into the tank and the water it displaced would have to run to a drain.



Problem I can see with this is that you would end up with a higher and higher RO content in the tank without re-mineralising it. Especially with adding CO2, this is asking for a pH crash...

I do like the idea, though... May get the sump in my new tank drilled and add a run off to waste... Will make water changes even easier...


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## andyseatrout (16 Jan 2011)

Kosh42-EFG said:
			
		

> [Problem I can see with this is that you would end up with a higher and higher RO content in the tank without re-mineralising it. Especially with adding CO2, this is asking for a pH crash...
> 
> I do like the idea, though... May get the sump in my new tank drilled and add a run off to waste... Will make water changes even easier...



That might well be a fly in the ointment then, although I don't know anything about remineralising RO. Couldn't the pH (or more correctly the KH) be kept in check by the addition of sodium bicarbonate solution?

What exactly does remineralising add to the RO water that is used by fish or plants that cannot be obtained through feeding?


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## Burnleygaz (16 Jan 2011)

Ph swings/drops from the addition of co2 have no relevence , the old "ph crash" was from the KH dropping , whic caused the ph to drop , with ph being the smoking gun  My tapwater here has a kh of <2 and my tank runs at a ph of less then 5 with co2 on (cant say exactly what it is because my test kit only goes to 5 )

As far as re-mineralising  your RO you`ll want magnisium+calcium and other small trace elements that the plants will need , but there are plenty of commercial products you can use to do this , seachem equlibrium being one of them , and you could just add a small amount at a regular interval (say 3x a week ) to make sure you don`t run out of anything .


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## andyseatrout (16 Jan 2011)

Burnleygaz said:
			
		

> Ph swings/drops from the addition of co2 have no relevence , the old "ph crash" was from the KH dropping , whic caused the ph to drop , with ph being the smoking gun  My tapwater here has a kh of <2 and my tank runs at a ph of less then 5 with co2 on (cant say exactly what it is because my test kit only goes to 5 )
> 
> As far as re-mineralising  your RO you`ll want magnisium+calcium and other small trace elements that the plants will need , but there are plenty of commercial products you can use to do this , seachem equlibrium being one of them , and you could just add a small amount at a regular interval (say 3x a week ) to make sure you don`t run out of anything .



Thanks for this - keeps the idea alive for the time being then!

Off to the water chemistry section to do a little more reading, especially about DIY remineralising ......


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## foxfish (17 Jan 2011)

I use a small power head to pump tank water from my sump to waste, I leave the main pump running, so you dont want to pump out faster that the ball valve can supply.
The problem is it is difficult to calculate the amount of water that is changed due to the mixing of tank water & top up water at the same time as the water is being pumped out.
However I carry out daily water changes & I know that 18 gals of tap water goes in to the sump, I figure that is at least  15% daily.
Having said all that - I actually enjoy the manual water change approach as it give me a chance to carry out other maintenance like glass cleaning & plant trimming. I like to get my hands in the tank while the water level is lowered & I just like the close contact you get from a manual water change, so, in fact I don't use my auto system anymore unless I am going on holiday.


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## andyseatrout (17 Jan 2011)

Thanks for that information. I think I will have to make smaller water changes more often as a 50% water change on 580 litres in one go would not be possible.

Please could you let me know if you think my CO2 injection method will work and provide feedback on the atomiser(s) that you use? I am particularly interested in whether or not you get total dissolving or microbubbles.


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## foxfish (17 Jan 2011)

Andy I like the micro bubbles as they are a never ending guide to how well the C02 is distributed.
Yes you can see them as a mist but only from close up, from my armchair viewing point I cant notice the mist.
I have considered fitting one just before a reactor to absorb the gas totally but, that would just be another unnecessary complication.
I have built plenty of reactors in the past & may use one again but, at the moment I am enjoying the simplicity & efficiency of the diffuser.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Up-aqua-aquarium- ... 3caf1c7677
The fact is - plant tanks work very well with basic equipment.
You can see dozens of algae free beautiful tanks on this & other forums & 99% of them are very basic.
However a sump will work as an asset even if it is not necessary, the same with daily water changes but, you need to get good C02 distribution & adequate fertilisation & finally you need as little light as required to achieve good growth & little algae.
Once you have the basics sorted & your tank is running trouble free then you can then begin to play!
Auto dosing pumps for ferts, auto evaporation top up, auto water change, C02 reactors, sun rise , sun set lighting etc All good fun but, I would follow the easy tried & tested route first & then develop you tank


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## danmil3s (17 Jan 2011)

used to do the drip change method, but like foxfish stopped using it and now do the change manually. i syphon/pump the water out the window, while i do maintenance clean gravel, trim plants and clean glass ect. then i fill from the mixer tap in the kitchen while i eat breakfast and watch the Simpson's do well over 50% on a 750l takes 1 1/2 hours give or take.
but if you do go drip change this might help http://www.angelfish.net/DripSystemcalc.php


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## andyseatrout (17 Jan 2011)

Thanks both of you for the information.

I will start with full water changes then, running water out of the window and filling from the pumped shower upstairs and see how that goes.

As yet, I haven't ordered any dry fertilisers as yet, neither have I tested any of the tap water parameters but I am taking it that testing won't be needed!

I would like to dose using dosing pumps, but would be happy in the first place to dose dry salts. Advice on exactly what to buy and from where would be appreciated .....

Currently the list of plants that I have made runs to 57 different types, so I assume that I am going to need to cut that down considerably as well! These are all from the Tropica catalogue and I would be happy to remove some based on your experience:

Altrenanthera reineckii "Purple" 
Anubias barteri var. nana
Anubias barteri "coffeefolia"
Aponogeton longiplumulosus
Bacopa australis
Bacopa caroliniana
Bacopa monnieri
Cardamine lyrata 
Cladophora aegagrophilia
Crinum calamistratum
Cryptocoryne bekettii "Petchii"
Cryptocoryne crispatula var. flaccidifolia
Cryptocoryne wendtii "brown"
Cryptocoryne wendtii "green"
Cryptocoryne wendtii "Tropica"
Cyperus helferi
Echinodorus "Aquartica"
Echinodorus "Ozelot"
Echinodorus " Ozelot green"
Echinodorus "Red diamond"
Echinodorus "Rose"
Echinodorus tenellus
Eleocharis parvula
Glossostigma elatinoides
Heteranthera zosterifolia
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides (maritima)
Hydrocotyle verticillata
Hygrophila corymbosa
Hygrophila corymbosa "compact"
Hygrophila polysperma
Hygrophila polysperma "Rosanervig"
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Limnophila aquatica
Limnophila sessiliflora
Lindernia rotundifolia
Ludwigia arcuata
Ludwigia glandulosa
Ludwigia repens "Rubin"
Micranthemum umbrosum
Microsorum pteropus
Microsorum pteropus "Narrow"
Microsorum pteropus "Windelov"
Myriophyllum mattogrossense
Myriophyllum mezianum
Nesaea crassicaulis
Nesaea pedicellata
Nymphaea lotus (Zenkeri)
Pogostemon erectus
Pogostemon helferi
Polygonum sp.
Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala sp. "green"
Shinnersia rivularis "Weiss-Grun"
Staurogyne repens
Vallisneria nana
Vallisneria spiralis "Tiger"
Vescicularia dubyana "Christmas"


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## foxfish (18 Jan 2011)

Crikey, that is just about every plant available LOL.
I think you should narrow your list down a bit & perhaps break down your choice to a couple of foreground, three or four mid ground & three or four stems?
It might be be helpful to think of a design or plan & then ask again about plant choice.
You can buy ferts from our forum sponsors, I use these chaps, they even sell a premix with full dosing instructions & dosing bottles  http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/prod ... product=82
I also use Seachems nitrogen supplement it is called Flourish & is easily available on line.


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