# Our very first tank - the Fluval Edge 46 litre!



## Glenda Steel (12 Aug 2014)

I am hesitant in posting these photo's at all as there are so many expert tanks on show here, but I hope you'll forgive the novice blunders (and my terrible photography)!  Our tank is as follows:
- Tank: Fluval Edge 46 litre (12 Us gallons), no additional lighting but an E series Fluval heater.  
- Stand: from the Pure range in high gloss white by Askoll.  
- Substrate:  Sand is "Pewter" sand by Pets at Home (I hunted high and low to find one that wasn't orange but a pale stone shade and yes it does match the curtains!!!) it's particularly gorgeous in the evening when it almost looks like coral sand.  Then smaller stone and large smooth river type pebbles
- Wood: Red Moor from Maidenhead Aquatics (Belton Garden Centre near Grantham Lincs) which we soaked for nearly 3 weeks before it would sink (changing the water frequently)
Plants:
Cryptocoryne beckettii
Cryptocoryne undalatus kasselman
Rotala rotundifolia
The tall grass like plant at the back I can't remember and it doesn't have a plant label any help to identify most welcome







I think I may have planted rather too sparsely but I hope that the long grasses will eventually grown up and under the top of the tank with the Rotala rotundifolia forming a clump in the middle ground in front of the wood.  Actually we'd be thrilled if it all just lived!!!

We are attempting to fishless cycle with food (hence the specs on the wood and planting) the water has gone a little tea coloured despite the wood being soaked for so long - will it clear?  Also the wood is now covered in a white furry fungus, I understand from the forum that this is normal. 

If all of this doesn't die I'll add more photo's later.  Any tips on photography with a limited camera welcome!


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## mr. luke (12 Aug 2014)

Tank looks great :d
For the stained water you could add carbon to the filter


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## James O (12 Aug 2014)

That looks great!  I'm sure as it grows in you'll feel more confident.

For photos, try taking them when its dark and turn all the lights off bar the tank.  Wear a dark top so you don't reflect onto the glass. Then shoot at an angle so you don't see the light


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## Glenda Steel (12 Aug 2014)

You're both so kind thank you so much, I think we need all the help we can get, I'm feeling a little deflated as I've just had to replant 2 plants as I found them floating!  With this tank it means emptying a good 10% of water out first which I've just done twice!!!!  I don't think this would have happen if I hadn't tried to plant with the tank half filled with water.  I had thought it may stop the wood from floating, which it did, but it was extremely difficult!  I'm in awe of all the sublime aquascaping on this forum. Still the Rotala rotundifolia seems to have grown since the weekend, so perhaps it will be ok.

There is a carbon section in the filter we have running, perhaps given time it may clear more.  At the moment with the dirty looking water, white fluffy fungus and the smell of stagnant pond water I'm not feeling very confident it will ever be suitable for stocking with fish and shrimp.

If it ever does stop looking like a neglected ditch and more like the serene Zen aquascape we have dreamt about I'll take some more photo's.  I'll certainly try the photography tips, thank you, it's such a problem with most of the room being white (including the sofas)!   You're right James O, I did end up with far more tank "selfies" that I bargained on!! 
Thank you so much once again and any tips and advice are most welcome and greatly received!


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## Fern (12 Aug 2014)

That looks very nice!
Re fish food for cycling, while it might work it's not a very reliable way to 'cycle' a tank. Most folk here just let the plants do their thing for the nitrogen cycle, a 'silent cycle', (You do need quite a good plant mass though, quick growing stems for example) along with regular ferts and frequent water changes instead for a few weeks while the plants grow on.
Some moss or anubias attached to the wood root would look good too. when the fungus has cleared!


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## Glenda Steel (12 Aug 2014)

Thank you so much Fern, that's so kind of you!  At the moment with a tank filled with food, fungus, slime and mould it's far from how I imaged it!  I like the idea of the plants doing the cycling it sounds so much "cleaner", although we didn't want to cover the wood too much (I adore it - or did pre the fuzz) I do love your idea of moss though!  That's definitely on the list!  Would moss balls look good do you think?  Perhaps they're a bit too "topiary" for this set up?  I really want something controllable in the moss department and more Japanese in influence - any suggestions?  One good point is the food cycling does seem to be very slowly working as the Ammonia levels are gradually creeping up.  We're only into the beginning of the second week, so fingers crossed.  Is it the uneaten fish food that's causing the stagnant pond smell?  Luckily the stand we have the tank on has a handy shelf perfect for a White Company scented candle or two (unlit) and it is a good excuse to buy an extra large bunch of lilies for the living room but please tell me the house won't smell of ditch water forever!  That's not in my Zen, tranquil tank vision at all!!!!


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## James O (12 Aug 2014)

The plants will settle in and stop floating once they have some fresh roots.

Do you know anyone with a mature tank?  If you can snag some mature filter media this can speed things up. I've also known people to throw in some duckweed as additional plant mass 

As for the smell.....water changes


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## Fern (12 Aug 2014)

Agree with James, fresh water does wonders for a planted tank


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## Glenda Steel (12 Aug 2014)

So do I not need to keep replanting the floating plants?  No, we don't know of anyone with a tank, mature or otherwise and I'm beginning to see why!!!  We really wanted minimal, purposeful planting to add to the movement and structure... ummmm???!!!   Perhaps given time (who am I kidding)?
I've been avoiding water changes as the tank has only been up and running for just over a week.  If I did a water change wouldn't it stop the ammonia level coming up?  I can put up with the smell if its working besides, it is a good excuse to buy more scented candles (you can never have enough)!!!  I've just been looking at the other "first tank" photo's on the forum and am so embarrassed about ours, what was I thinking posting them?  Why isn't our water clear and why do our plants look like they've been mangled... oh wait ..... perhaps it's because they have?  Ho hum.


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## Andy Thurston (12 Aug 2014)

Have a read through this thread
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/should-i-fishless-cycle-a-new-planted-tank.27103/
It will tell you all you need to know


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## Adam humphries (12 Aug 2014)

Looks very nice


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## Glenda Steel (12 Aug 2014)

Thank you so much Big Clown and Adam (love the avatar Adam!)!


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## Adam humphries (12 Aug 2014)

Slightly drunk Xmas...lol


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## ceg4048 (12 Aug 2014)

OP is advised to perform large and frequent water changes. That is best for plants. What is best for plants will then be best for the rest of the tank.

Cheers,


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## Gary Nelson (12 Aug 2014)

Well Glenda, I have been reading allot of your posts and various questions you have asked and I would say you are very much on the right track and you should be very proud of your first tank - it looks great!
Remember this hobby always offers loads to learn and as you will read, some of us here have been doing this for years and still have problems.  If this was my first scape I would be very pleased (and by the way, it's much better than I did on my first go)
New setups always offer a few teething issues, keep at it and I'd say in a few months you will have a little cracker


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## Iain Sutherland (12 Aug 2014)

It looks good so you can stop beating yourself up. 
As said above, keep the tank clean. Get in with a toothbrush and rub the wood, clean the glass and change 50% water everyday if you can. What you do now will determine how the tanks is for months to come, for as long as it's dirty and stagnant algae spores will be gathering like a marching army ready to beat you up.
Clean tank = happy tank.

The cycle will look after itself


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

Thank you all so, so much, I will make it my priority today to get the tank clean and do a 50% water change.  Your advice makes complete sense, I love a clean tidy home and will apply the same ethics to our tank![DOUBLEPOST=1407911845][/DOUBLEPOST]





ceg4048 said:


> OP is advised to perform large and frequent water changes. That is best for plants. What is best for plants will then be best for the rest of the tank.
> 
> Cheers,


Hi Ceg4048, Could I possibly ask what OP stands for please (sorry not yet up to speed on the abbreviations)?  Thank you so much for taking time to give me advice!


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## ceg4048 (13 Aug 2014)

Hi,
    Sorry for the confusion. OP = Opening Poster or Originating Poster.

Cheers,


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi,
> Sorry for the confusion. OP = Opening Poster or Originating Poster.
> 
> Cheers,


Please don't apologise it's my mistake!  Thank you so much!


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## allan angus (13 Aug 2014)

great looking tank looks very nice


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## Edvet (13 Aug 2014)

Looks great!, some patience is required
Be sure to discus what fish you intend to get (not for a while yet)


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

Thank you so much Allan!  I'm feeling better about it today now I've started cleaning it up![DOUBLEPOST=1407933742][/DOUBLEPOST]





Edvet said:


> Looks great!, some patience is required
> Be sure to discus what fish you intend to get (not for a while yet)


Thank you Edvert!  I've been doing quite a lot of research and taken advice from forum members and with the size of the tank and our tap water chemistry - we have very hard water with a GH of just above 18 and a high ph of 8.2 - we are looking at a small shoal of Javanese Ricefish (Oryzias javanicus) or a small shoal of Danio erythromicron
the shrimp I would dearly love Amano, but as you say we may be many months off yet!  I have just tested the Nitrite for the first time and it's registering 5.0 ppm so I guess things are happening which is good news!  For the moment I am happy to concentrate on making sure the plants are growing healthy and well and the tank is clean!


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

2 hours later - 50% water change completed, wood cleaned from algae as much as possible (although I was unable to remove all of it and have blobs of it now settled on the plants) glass is now cleaned, unfortunately in the process I managed to uproot around 3 plants which I have replanted but have broken off many leaves in doing so!!  Is there a technique in planting that will make them stay in position?  

The wood, which is around 10 separate pieces also collapsed, again pulling off many stem and leaves from the plants which were minimal to start with.  All in all a difficult process and although the water is clearer and slightly fresher smelling the poor plants look very much worse for the ordeal!  At the moment I am so grateful that there are no fish or shrimp in our tank as I really don't think I'm fit to keep them!   I do most certainly now see the benefits of frequent water changes and a clean tank but I must find a method that doesn't destroy the plants nor frighten the livestock when we have them!   

I am really struggling with syphoning as the opening on the Fluval Edge combined with the tall arrangement of our wood means that I can't move the syphon much without disturbing everything.  Getting the syphon going is exhausting and completely hit and miss.  Any tips would be most welcome, we have the Fluval Edge gravel vacuum/syphon.


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## Edvet (13 Aug 2014)

You'll want long planting (or reptile feeding) tweezers, like these:http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-Huge-TWEEZERS-Snake-Reptile-HERP-Feeding-Tool-SS-/280474173752
Most aquatic are "slightly" overpriced. I use my old herp tweezers with no problem. Shorten roots, grab roots with tip of tweezer, insert in substrate, quite deep, then pull out a bit to straighten roots (in the sand, you won't see this)


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

Edvet said:


> You'll want long planting (or reptile feeding) tweezers, like these:http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-Huge-TWEEZERS-Snake-Reptile-HERP-Feeding-Tool-SS-/280474173752
> Most aquatic are "slightly" overpriced. I use my old herp tweezers with no problem


Sadly I have them but find that as I try to "let go" of a plant once it's in position it pulls it out again!/??  I guess it's like everything - practise makes perfect!


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## Edvet (13 Aug 2014)

Probably you'll need to put it deeper at first, force the tweezer open with the plant at depth, this way sand will close around the roots.


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## Andy Thurston (13 Aug 2014)

Gently twist/wiggle the tweezers as you let go of the plant then pull the tweezers out slowly/carefully once they are fully open. Gently holding the plant with your other hand can help too. I find straight tweezers easier to plant with. It does take a little practice too


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## Fern (13 Aug 2014)

It's a nice looking tank, but doesn't make for ease of maintenance!
I'm not sure that you would want to attempt this, but it is possible to take the top glass off. I'm also not sure if I can post a link as it is from another forum, but if you google 'Fluval edge taking off the top' it should give you the info.


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

Big clown said:


> Gently twist/wiggle the tweezers as you let go of the plant then pull the tweezers out slowly/carefully once they are fully open. Gently holding the plant with your other hand can help too. I find straight tweezers easier to plant with. It does take a little practice too


I will give the twist and wiggle ago, thanks Big Clown, unfortunately the Edge opening only allows for one hand at a time - even my small hands - I can't imagine how larger hands cope![DOUBLEPOST=1407946853][/DOUBLEPOST]





Fern said:


> It's a nice looking tank, but doesn't make for ease of maintenance!
> I'm not sure that you would want to attempt this, but it is possible to take the top glass off. I'm also not sure if I can post a link as it is from another forum, but if you google 'Fluval edge taking off the top' it should give you the info.


Thank you Fern but we love this tank and I'm determined to overcome my ineptitude and make this work!!!


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## Andy Thurston (13 Aug 2014)

Sounds like you could do with an extra wrist in your arm for maintenance lol
I don't use a gravel vac in my planted tanks . I just use 8/12mm filter pipe fastened to a stick, like a vacuum, a few cm from the substrate and start the syphon the old fashioned way with a quick suck!


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## Glenda Steel (13 Aug 2014)

Oh my word Andy!  Having just created the "Inner city drain" biotope (where a miniature shopping trolly and plastic bags and beer cans wouldn't look amiss) the thought of getting a mouth full of _that_ water...??!!!!!!!!  And I _know _I would!  I just need to practise with some clean water first perhaps.  Actually I'm now rather chuffed with the big clean up as despite the plants looking tattered and battered the tank looks and smells so much better!  Should I be worried about brown spots on some leaves?  I did search the forum and wondered if I had the lights on too much?  Or perhaps it was the state of the tank or that it was a new tank?  Head in a spin again!


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## Andy Thurston (13 Aug 2014)

just keep changing the water and see how your plants settle in. 
5-6 hours light should be good for a new tank


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## OllieNZ (13 Aug 2014)

If you buy the cheap eBay siphons with the pump ball on the end, you can take the end off leaving you with a 1/2in diameter pipe and no water in your mouth. I've just shut down my edge as I was having similar problems with maintenance and couldn't clean the glass very well.


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## cozmoz (13 Aug 2014)

You can buy siphon with pumps on them to prevent that yourself from sucking up the water.


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## Edvet (14 Aug 2014)

Come on Glenda, keeping aquaria means you got to suck up some tank water now and then. I've been doing it for 25 years and i've grown up to be a big boy


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## Iain Sutherland (14 Aug 2014)

Decent tweezers (fine points and light) are worth their weight in gold. 
Tweezers should go into substrate at an angle and pulled out at and angle away from the plant, very few if and will lift like this assuming the substrate isn't too shallow


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## Glenda Steel (14 Aug 2014)

Edvet said:


> Come on Glenda, keeping aquaria means you got to suck up some tank water now and then. I've been doing it for 25 years and i've grown up to be a big boy


But I don't want to grow up to be a big boy Edvet!!!![DOUBLEPOST=1408022100][/DOUBLEPOST]





Iain Sutherland said:


> Decent tweezers (fine points and light) are worth their weight in gold.
> Tweezers should go into substrate at an angle and pulled out at and angle away from the plant, very few if and will lift like this assuming the substrate isn't too shallow


Great tips thanks Iain I will practise![DOUBLEPOST=1408022251][/DOUBLEPOST]Thank you all so much for such invaluable tips, I shall take them all (well nearly all Edvet!!) on board!


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## James O (14 Aug 2014)

For quick, lazy water changes I use one of these http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/eheim-compact-300-pump-150300-ltrhr-p-345.html

Attach a hose, drop into the tank, place other end of hose in bucket and switch on.....


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## Glenda Steel (15 Aug 2014)

James O said:


> For quick, lazy water changes I use one of these http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/eheim-compact-300-pump-150300-ltrhr-p-345.html
> 
> Attach a hose, drop into the tank, place other end of hose in bucket and switch on.....



Now that's more like it James!


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## Glenda Steel (15 Aug 2014)

Another 50% water change and general tank clean today and things are looking up!  Only one floating plant and the technique of putting the roots in the substrate at an angle really worked Iain!  However the plants still look "burnt" and chewed (no snails I have checked), I have cut the lights on time down to 5 hours and increased the filter flow, is there anything else I should be doing? Any recommended forum posts I should read?


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## James O (15 Aug 2014)

Not sure what plants you have (being lazy) but if they were grown emersed rather than submerged, some timed the old leaves can die off a bit while being replaced with new ones.  This can also happen as they just get used to your tank.

A little liquid carbon and some ferts might help them pick up more quickly


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## allan angus (15 Aug 2014)

looking great sounds like it needs time and ferts now


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## Glenda Steel (16 Aug 2014)

James O said:


> Not sure what plants you have (being lazy) but if they were grown emersed rather than submerged, some timed the old leaves can die off a bit while being replaced with new ones.  This can also happen as they just get used to your tank.
> 
> A little liquid carbon and some ferts might help them pick up more quickly




We did add 2 JBL Ferro tabs when we planted but I would like to add some fertilisers but don't know where to start nor whether they will halt the fishless cycling with food. 

These are our plants:
Cryptocoryne beckettii
Cryptocoryne undalatus kasselman
Rotala rotundifolia
Vallisneria (not sure which one but will ask the shop)
Also like to add Anubis 

 Also is the planting too sparse?  We were hoping to provide cover for the fish when (if ever!!!) we add them and had hoped to have the Vallisneria in th right hand corner eventually grow up and across the top of the glass like this (although a more appropriate size for our tank of course):


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## James O (16 Aug 2014)

Once the plants are settled in they'll start to reproduce.  I believe vallis sends out a runner and then pops up another plant.  Crypts grow plantlets on their sides so they form a clump.  Not sure on the rotala. Anubias are rhizomes and send out a new leaf once every 2 weeks or so in my lo tech tanks

Healthy plants are part of the cycle so if you have tabs in already, I wouldn't worry about ferts for now. Just keep up the water changes and they'll be looking healthy soon.  It can take up to 6 weeks 

Oh and btw, vallis doesn't seem to like liquid carbon so ignore that in my previous post


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## Glenda Steel (16 Aug 2014)

James O said:


> Once the plants are settled in they'll start to reproduce.  I believe vallis sends out a runner and then pops up another plant.  Crypts grow plantlets on their sides so they form a clump.  Not sure on the rotala. Anubias are rhizomes and send out a new leaf once every 2 weeks or so in my lo tech tanks
> 
> Healthy plants are part of the cycle so if you have tabs in already, I wouldn't worry about ferts for now. Just keep up the water changes and they'll be looking healthy soon.  It can take up to 6 weeks
> 
> Oh and btw, vallis doesn't seem to like liquid carbon so ignore that in my previous post



Thanks James! I've no problem with a 6 week or so wait, it will give me time to practise my tank maintenance skills.


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## Glenda Steel (21 Aug 2014)

Just a quick update!  Very excited as I've just done a 50% water change and tank clean in under an hour - vacuum thing worked first time!  We've now added some extra plants (yes I did say we wanted minimal planting but this is so addictive!!!) and they are as follows:
Annubias cogensis (to the back left  - it has been moved around on it's pebble quite a bit until it looked right!)
Annubias barteri nana bonsai x 2 attached to the wood
Eleocharis montevidensis  (really adore this tall grass as it sways in the filter)






Any tips on these plants would be greatly appreciated, especially fertilisers (shrimp friendly) for the future.
I also want to say a huge thank you to everyone that recommended tank cleaning, I'm doing a 50% water change every other day and it makes such a difference!  No terrible smell, and the fungus growth on the wood has nearly disappeared completely.  The cycle seems to be still happening (ammonia falling, Nitrites still high but now falling and Nitrates starting to climb).  Keep the tips coming please!!!!!


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

Most important tip: Throw Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test kits in the tip....and don't look back.

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (21 Aug 2014)

Your are awful Clive
Best tip listen to Clive 
Cheers


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## Glenda Steel (21 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Most important tip: Throw Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test kits in the tip....and don't look back.
> 
> Cheers,


Hi Clive,
But how will I know when it's safe for the fish and shrimp?  You were absolutely right with the clean tank tip so I'd love to hear more!
Warmest wishes
Glenda


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## Andy D (21 Aug 2014)

As I said on PFK, it is looking great!

I expect Clive will get back to you soon with the relevant links to back up his statement.


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## Lindy (21 Aug 2014)

That looks a work of art and immaculate!


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## tim (21 Aug 2014)

Looks lovely glenda, where is the montevidensis planted ? Background plant looks like cypress helfri.


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## allan angus (21 Aug 2014)

looks good glenda  love your enthusiasm


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## liam11712 (21 Aug 2014)

It hardly looks like you have water in there great clean tank love it!


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## ceg4048 (21 Aug 2014)

Glenda Steel said:


> But how will I know when it's safe for the fish and shrimp?


Hi Glenda,
                 Because if you feed your plants and keep the tank clean then automatically, within 6-8 weeks the tank will be safe for fish. No guessing and no worrying. See http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/accuracy-of-test-kits.20009/

Nitrogen compound test kits never told you the truth at all. They are very difficult compounds to test for and people have only ever hypnotized themselves that these kits are telling the truth.

Cheers,


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## Ian Holdich (21 Aug 2014)

Lovely! 

That is all...


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## Iain Sutherland (21 Aug 2014)

It's looking great Glenda, very impressive first tank.
Not sure if it was picked up on before but you need to be adding ferts as anubias, rotala etc will not feed off the root tabs.
For a tank this size and ease I'd suggest getting some tropica specialised, it's more expensive but works great and will last long months, so long enough to look at other options if you please.
As it's low tech dose the amount the bottle says but split it up to daily.... Would guess 1 or 2 squirts a day would suffice.
Keep it up


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## RossMartin (21 Aug 2014)

Not sure if i am right, however i don't think Vallis likes Liquid Carbon........not sure where i read that but from a personal experience it doesn't!


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## Vinkenoog1977 (21 Aug 2014)

Nope, you're right, the tips will go yellow and die off with liquid CO2. I'd suggest looking into a DIY CO2 system, just some empty bottles, sugar and yeast needed, and some airline.


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## Glenda Steel (22 Aug 2014)

tim said:


> Looks lovely glenda, where is the montevidensis planted ? Background plant looks like cypress helfri.


Opps thank you so much Tim I think you're right, I had a long plant list that I took to the store and I may have ticked the wrong one (I'm trying to keep a note for aftercare)!!  I'll amend the notes on the posting.[DOUBLEPOST=1408693916][/DOUBLEPOST]





Iain Sutherland said:


> It's looking great Glenda, very impressive first tank.
> Not sure if it was picked up on before but you need to be adding ferts as anubias, rotala etc will not feed off the root tabs.
> For a tank this size and ease I'd suggest getting some tropica specialised, it's more expensive but works great and will last long months, so long enough to look at other options if you please.
> As it's low tech dose the amount the bottle says but split it up to daily.... Would guess 1 or 2 squirts a day would suffice.
> Keep it up


Thank you so much Iain for the very kind compliment!  I did take the added ferts tip on board and very much like the look of the Tropica Specialised, is it one that will be shrimp safe?  If so I will buy some right away![DOUBLEPOST=1408694136][/DOUBLEPOST]





ceg4048 said:


> Hi Glenda,
> Because if you feed your plants and keep the tank clean then automatically, within 6-8 weeks the tank will be safe for fish. No guessing and no worrying. See http://ukaps.org/forum/threads/accuracy-of-test-kits.20009/
> 
> Nitrogen compound test kits never told you the truth at all. They are very difficult compounds to test for and people have only ever hypnotized themselves that these kits are telling the truth.
> ...


Many thanks once again Clive, it all makes perfect sense - balance = harmony!  No more mention of tests I promise!


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## Glenda Steel (22 Aug 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> Nope, you're right, the tips will go yellow and die off with liquid CO2. I'd suggest looking into a DIY CO2 system, just some empty bottles, sugar and yeast needed, and some airline.


Sorry Vinkenoog1977, but couldn't possibly spoil the line of the tank and stand (no where to hide the bottle)!!!  Our next tank (yes we're addicted) will be a higher tech (all hidden of course) and not just because I adore the look of the glass lily pipes!!!  Please don't hate me for this but we wanted this tank to be akin to a piece of sculpture on a plinth!!!


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## James D (22 Aug 2014)

Looking great Glenda, I can't stand equipment cluttering the look of my tank either so you're not alone!


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## Glenda Steel (22 Aug 2014)

James D said:


> Looking great Glenda, I can't stand equipment cluttering the look of my tank either so you're not alone!


Phew thank you so much James, I thought I'd pressed the self destruct button with that comment![DOUBLEPOST=1408701694][/DOUBLEPOST]





ldcgroomer said:


> That looks a work of art and immaculate!


Thank you so much Lindy! It's a steep learning curve!


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## Glenda Steel (22 Aug 2014)

Iain Sutherland said:


> It's looking great Glenda, very impressive first tank.
> Not sure if it was picked up on before but you need to be adding ferts as anubias, rotala etc will not feed off the root tabs.
> For a tank this size and ease I'd suggest getting some tropica specialised, it's more expensive but works great and will last long months, so long enough to look at other options if you please.
> As it's low tech dose the amount the bottle says but split it up to daily.... Would guess 1 or 2 squirts a day would suffice.
> Keep it up


I've just bought a large bottle Iain! Thanks for the tip!


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## Glenda Steel (25 Aug 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Most important tip: Throw Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate test kits in the tip....and don't look back.
> 
> Cheers,


Clive do you bother with gh testing in the tank once it's set up?  I know my tap water hardness is that enough?  It's 18 degrees german with a high ph of 8.2.  I'm still 50% water changing every other day and (with the help of our uninvited bladder snails) the plants are almost free from the brown algae now - things are looking really close to being ready for fish etc to me!
Warmest wishes
Glenda


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## ceg4048 (25 Aug 2014)

Glenda Steel said:


> Clive do you bother with gh testing in the tank once it's set up? I know my tap water hardness is that enough? It's 18 degrees german with a high ph of 8.2.



Hi Glenda,
                 No, it only necessary to know what the tap value is for academic reasons and for issues such as breeding and so forth. A better number to keep track of is the Total Dissolved Solids (AKA conductivity) which can give you a better idea of how dirty the water is getting.

The GH only tells you what the sum of the Calcium and Magnesium content is. You could have found that out by looking at your municipal water report on-line. No need to pay money for another test kit and definitely no need to keep testing.




Glenda Steel said:


> things are looking really close to being ready for fish etc to me!
> Warmest wishes


You cannot tell by what the tank looks like whether it is ready for fish. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that you would do well to NOT add fish for at least 6 weeks from startup and better to wait 8 weeks.

Cheers,


----------



## Glenda Steel (26 Aug 2014)

Hi Clive,

Yes I have used our local water board report (which is very detailed) when considering fish that would be suitable.  I figured they would have far better testing equipment than I could buy off the shelves!   I will look into buying a TDS meter though.

Sorry for the confusion, I meant that the tank looked like it was becoming habitable for fish as before it was such an inhospitable looking place!!  We have placed an order with our local aquarium stockist and the fish won't be available until at least 2 weeks from today which will be 6 weeks from starting the cycle but we will heed your advice about waiting until it's 8 weeks. Presumably the cycled tank won't stop being cycled just because we wait a few weeks longer.

Many thanks as aways for your invaluable advice.


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## James D (26 Aug 2014)

Hi Glenda

I bought one of these TDS pens from Fleabay although I'm not sure you really need one if you're going to stay on top of your water changes and keep your tank nice and clean. Out of interest what fish have you ordered?


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## Glenda Steel (26 Aug 2014)

James D said:


> Hi Glenda
> 
> I bought one of these TDS pens from Fleabay although I'm not sure you really need one if you're going to stay on top of your water changes and keep your tank nice and clean. Out of interest what fish have you ordered?


Hi James,

I will keep the tank clean but I'm hoping that once the plants etc are established that we won't need to do a 50% every other day.  Would a 50% once a week work or is it more advisable to do smaller changes and in which case would I need a TDS meter?  It does concern me that there will be times, say for instance holidays, when we are away for 2 weeks and water changes plus tank cleaning won't be possible.  But as that won't be for quite a while yet (perhaps two years or more before we are able to travel again) so perhaps the tank will be a good heathy environment by then and it won't matter so much?  

The fish we have on order are Danio erythromicron as they seem suitable for our water parameters and tank size.


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## Edvet (27 Aug 2014)

Nice fish. Seen this:http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-erythromicron/?


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## Iain Sutherland (27 Aug 2014)

Loads of water changes are always beneficial but once the tanks mature water changing 20% a week or 50% every other week as a low tech should be plenty.

Enthromicron are lovely but very shy. You will likely want something to compliment them that is active... Maybe a feature fish/pair...


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## Glenda Steel (27 Aug 2014)

Edvet said:


> Nice fish. Seen this:http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-erythromicron/?


They're gorgeous aren't they?!!  Yes this is the site I've used as a reference for suitable candidates!  They are very informative (the site not the fish)!!![DOUBLEPOST=1409162336][/DOUBLEPOST]





Iain Sutherland said:


> Loads of water changes are always beneficial but once the tanks mature water changing 20% a week or 50% every other week as a low tech should be plenty.
> 
> Enthromicron are lovely but very shy. You will likely want something to compliment them that is active... Maybe a feature fish/pair...


That's a relief thanks Iain, I would hate to let the tank "go to pot" now!  I've just applied the first dose of the plant food you recommended (Tropica specialised) and okay I have just done a 50% water change before applying, but I swear the leaves look greener and fresher already!!  I do love how clean the tank looks after a large water change.  As far as shy fish are concerned, we were hoping for a serene shoal that would just sway around a bit in unison!   What would be the comfortable amount of Danio Enthromicron in a 46 litre Fluval Edge with our planting/aquascape etc?


----------



## Iain Sutherland (27 Aug 2014)

Well enthromicron don't really sway around, Darty little fish but very cool. Would have thought 10 would be fine.


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## Glenda Steel (27 Aug 2014)

I must admit to being rather keen on the Java Ricefish but my Husband thinks they're too see-through and odd so I'll settle for darty and cool!  We have 6 on order to start with and 6 Cherry Shrimp and once they've settled in (and the tank is working properly) then we'll invite a few more - thanks Iain!


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## Glenda Steel (2 Jun 2016)

Just an update 2 years down the line:

This has been a difficult learning curve to say the least!  Going from sheer frustration to elation pretty much on a weekly basis.

We left the tank cycle (see above notes) for around 8 weeks before adding 6 Danio erythromicron, sadly only 3 of the original have survived but have been supplemented with 2 of their offspring (they had many more but ate the rest)!  They seemed to suffer from a disorder that affected their ability to swim, and within days became pure white and died (a difficult time with many frustrated tears on my part).  The remaining 5 have developed a deep rich colouring and are stunning to watch (in the dark and as still as possible as they are ridiculously shy)!  Feeding has been a problem as they won't come out until you have left the room.  Even the "home raised" pair have reverted to type and stay hidden!  I've tried frozen blood worm etc as well as dried food but find that the semi floating Hikari Micro pellets work the best and they do seem to hunt for them in the foliage.  The Fluval Edge filter system does prove a problem as it shoots the food directly to the bottom front of the tank.  Keeping the water level lower and the taller "grasses" in a loop near the opening allows me to place the food in a holding area for a little longer.

We also introduced 8 red cherry shrimp and 6 Amano shrimp the red cherries now number over 20 and we have 5 of the Amanos to date.  At first we did have a problem with some of the red cherries not being able to moult (again many tears as I watched helplessly).  Now we use the brilliant Genchem Beta-G and regularly see the ghostly shed "skins" in the moss and "juicy" healthy looking shrimp!

The plants thrived with daily doses of Tropica Premium liquid fert' and I have to admit got completely out of control.  I felt overwhelmed as the tank became congested mostly by the Vallisneria, which grew up and across the top of the glass in a huge mass.  It prevented light reaching the plants below and we lost a few including the Rotana rotundifolia.  I also felt unable to vacuum the gravel successfully (I use a small airline pipe attached to a wire filter pipe cleaner so that I can bend it around the wood) nor clean the glass and major problems with algae resulted.  I was worried about not being able to see the shrimp, particularly the babies and frightening the fish.  I'm ashamed to say the tank became a very unbalanced, unclean, unhealthy place.

Now determined to bring it around I have read the excellent pruning article on this site and I have set about removing excess plants, particularly the Anubias cogensis which had to go as it grew too large and out of proportion for the tank. This is now enabling a vacuum every other day along with a thorough glass clean (the Marina small magnet is perfect for the difficult Edge) and 40% water change.  The shrimp seem to be fine, hoping out of the way and although the fish are terrified they do seem to play/shoal more afterwards (after lights out of course) rather than never being seen.

I struggle with the moss (not shown in these photo's) as the prunings just disappear in the other foliage and to be honest don't like the look of it in our tank, it doesn't seem to work with the other plants.  I would like to remove it but worry the shrimp babies would miss it.  Any thoughts?  I should mention that whilst doing routine maintenance I now keep the filter running until the very end and then clean that quickly.   

We started with a foam shrimp guard on the intake filter but found that the uneaten fish food was saturating it.  This would result in the impeller just stopping unable to last until the next week's clean!  We have changed to a metal mesh and rubber version which has made a huge difference to the filters performance.  

To date: Once again I am ashamed of the state of the tank and plants (see this posting http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ferts-help-a-weekly-dose.41610/) so the photo's attached are from last year before the foliage took over and before the algae grew etc...  It was hard looking at these pictures as things have gone so wrong, all down to my mistakes and fears.

However I won't give up and welcome any advice to help get our tank back to full health.


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## Aqua360 (2 Jun 2016)

Glenda Steel said:


> Just an update 2 years down the line:
> 
> This has been a difficult learning curve to say the least!  Going from sheer frustration to elation pretty much on a weekly basis.
> 
> ...



tank looks awesome, I think you're being a bit harsh on yourself; especially being your first effort into aquascaping.

I'd recommend going purely with red cherry shrimp and forgetting fish in that tank, unless its a male betta perhaps. Though smaller shoaling fish can be done, I've always found the spectacle a little jarring; as smaller fish often appreciate larger set-ups and visibly look uncomfortable in smaller tanks


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## Glenda Steel (2 Jun 2016)

Thank you so much Aqua360 that so kind of you, but this was last year and it really looks awful now that I'm too ashamed to photograph it.  

I totally agree re the shrimp, _I've _never felt comfortable about seeing our fish in here but the shrimp on the other hand look very at home.  Although that said I would love a male Betta but with water so hard (317ppm, GH of just above 18 and a high ph of 8.2) I don't think it's possible, is it?  The plan is to let the Danio erythromicron that we have, live out their natural lives and then just keep shrimp, that is unless the Danio have more babies!


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## rebel (2 Jun 2016)

Your tank looks good. Keep your head out of the water and soldier on!


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## Glenda Steel (2 Jun 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> forgetting fish in that tank, unless its a male betta perhaps


I would hate them to eat the shrimp!


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## alto (3 Jun 2016)

I don't think the Edge is really all that unsuitable for fish - with a 43cm x 26cm footprint it's not all that much smaller than an ADA 45P



Glenda Steel said:


> 6 Danio erythromicron


these fish are not the easiest to keep successfully, groups of 20 or so are much more likely to be active & visible (still need to be careful of tankmates) - your water 





> 317ppm, GH of just above 18 and a high ph of 8.2


 may also be having some behavioral effects

Endlers or Guppy/Endler hybrids (re smaller body size) do fine in these tanks, even when kept in smaller group; not all Bettas are shrimp hunters & if you choose one with LOTS of (handicap) finnage (eg, super delta elephant ear) most shrimp will be faster & more agile  



Glenda Steel said:


> I felt overwhelmed as the tank became congested mostly by the Vallisneria, which grew up and across the top of the glass in a huge mass


It's not the easiest tank to choose suitable plants for, light is low, CO2 is not easily added (though there are some very nice planted tanks done with liquid carbon solutions such as Seachem Excel), work inside the tank can be challenging ...
Some to consider

Valisneria nana 
L palustris
Bacopa 'Compact'
C beckettii 'Petchii"
& other "easy" plants with smaller leafs & more moderate growth


Remove the moss! shrimp will be fine - you can add a C aegagropila for shrimp grazing, or E parvula (it will form a dense mat & baby shrimp will scurry about underneath)

At this stage, I'd likely tear the tank down & restart ie move shrimp & fish to a suitable bin (any food grade plastic) - if you choose carefully you may be able to add the filter & heater as well, so no time pressure on the rescape.
Once all plants are out, you should be able to thoroughly vacuum substrate (or change to a different substrate if you want a change), then replant etc


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## Glenda Steel (3 Jun 2016)

Hi Alto,

Thank you so much for your helpful advice!  We had been considering adding some Endler's to make the Danio feel less threatened but didn't know whether that was a good idea so thank you for this.  Ultimately how many Endler's would be ideal companions for our 5 Danio? 

I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear that taking the moss out would be a good idea and will take a look at the suggested alternatives.



alto said:


> Valisneria nana
> L palustris
> Bacopa 'Compact'
> C beckettii 'Petchii"
> & other "easy" plants with smaller leafs & more moderate growth



I really like the plants suggested and I'll trying introducing a few of these once the tank is clean again.  I'd been keeping clear of the red foliage plants as I'd heard they need a lot of light.   The thought however of trying to move the fish and shrimp and starting again is too terrifying so I'll take it slowly and plant little by little with water and inhabitants in situ.  To be honest a lot of our planting was done after setup.  



alto said:


> liquid carbon solutions such as Seachem Excel



Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that Valisneria doesn't like liquid carbon, have you found it so?  Would it be ok for the shrimp/fish too?  

I have to admit I'm finding the whole process difficult and many sleepless nights/nightmares resulting over these 2 years.  I woke the other night after dreaming I was trying to pick shrimp out of the carpet to put back into the tank??!!  The worst recent nightmare was dreaming of finding shrimp in my mouth and trying again to get them back in the tank without swallowing them?!  All Freudians out there may tell me what that's all about!  It hasn't helped having 4 power cuts since Christmas, where 2 of which lasted over 8 hours.  Being in control of the very "air" that something breaths is enormous, at least with our cat I know if he doesn't like what I'm doing he will take himself off to find a better home!  This is why the friendly helpful advice in this forum has been a lifeline, for which I will always be so grateful.

Another tank clean this afternoon so I will remove the moss!

Thank you so much once again!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (3 Jun 2016)

Glenda, the tank looks great and believe me you've made considerably less mistakes than a lot of people I've seen in here. The main reason for that is because you have listened to the advice and acted upon it while still keeping the tank the way that you want it to eventually look. I've been in your position as has every body else at some point and the only thing that worries me about your set up is the same thing that worries me with other new comers setups and it's the most important piece. Enjoy it  You're right, it can be a bit of a worry, you don't want things to go wrong or be responsible for fish deaths but you have to bare in mind that sometimes things like that happen and often it's not your fault.

I've learned over the years mixing my ferts to the decimal point and keeping everything just so although undoubtedly beneficial that it can take some of the enjoyment out of the hobby. I've also had to do things that in theory should have had all my plants dying when I've been away with no one to dose etc and tbh the plants have been exactly the same when when I got back  To start with I was dosing at exactly 2 hours before lights on with stuff I've measured in syringes with 0. decimal point scales. Now I throw roughly the right amount of ferts in with a spoon and not always on the day I was meant too  Keep the basics right which is essentially a clean tank and make sure the plants have enough food and they'll be fine. Difference is we are just looking for a nice feature in our houses as oppose to having to get a scape ready for a competition in 4 weeks time and that's what you've got   We can however use the knowledge of the people in here who do do that and apply it to our setups.

Pour yourself a glass and just have a stare into your creation for a couple of hours because you're doing well and it looks well.


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## alto (3 Jun 2016)

Glenda Steel said:


> many sleepless nights/nightmares


I have nightmares too - tank breaks, & fish are doomed .... but then it turns out they can swim in the air just fine   ... & so I manage to get the tank set back up (love the magically appearing unbroken tank) but then I have to run all over the house to capture the air swimming fish who are fully embracing their freedom - only I know that it's time limited & they need to be back in the water ... of course they all get back in, just in time 



Glenda Steel said:


> It hasn't helped having 4 power cuts since Christmas, where 2 of which lasted over 8 hours


Invest in a basic battery air pump - it should come with airstone or you can pick up a sponge filter - as this way water will be oxygenated.
As long as there isn't a ton of debris in the filter, it should be fine when power returns (very very rarely _not so nice gunk_ can come out of the stagnant filter).
Most tanks come though power cuts just fine 



Glenda Steel said:


> I'd been keeping clear of the red foliage plants as I'd heard they need a lot of light.


L palustris might not be as red but it should grow just fine - if tank receives some ambient sunlight, it may even go red.




Glenda Steel said:


> The thought however of trying to move the fish and shrimp and starting again is too terrifying so I'll take it slowly and plant little by little with water and inhabitants in situ.


I remember those days  
After doing this several (numerous?) times, it's my preferred method when rescaping - it's definitely less stressful for me knowing livestock are safely elsewhere, & I believe less stressful for fish to be out of the commotion, I just make sure that my tank is up on water changes - I do 50% water change weekly, or even daily when establishing new plants/substrate etc - so when planning a tank shuffle I increase water changes to alternate days, then just set up my holding bin with 50% tank water & 50% tap (so it's really just another water change).

I remove hardscape first - you likely need to do this for plant & tank access anyway - sometimes shrimp are tucked away so I always place this in another (fish designated so no chance of soap residue) bin & add a little tank water to bottom (any shrimp will end up here).

I trim plants at the substrate where possible (most stem plants, NOT grasses including vallisneria, cryptocorynes, echinodorus) - in your case, as you rather need to remove the Vallisneria, I'd cut those at the base as well - so there's room to operate The Net, don't chase, just go slow & _sneak_ fish & shrimp into the net.
Even if you're leaving fish etc in tank, you can still trim heavily - again easier to clean substrate, also then you can slowly ease plant bases/root systems out of substrate with good visibility: if it seems there will be too much of a substrate upheaval from removing root system, you can just cut & leave the remaining roots behind (most will slowly 'rot').
(If you decide to remove as much livestock as possible, don't stress over any missed baby shrimp - those guys are amazingly resilient)  

Note that if you try to actually lift the Vallisneria, it's likely rooted throughout the substrate & may create rather a mess - I'm always cautious about disturbing substrate.
You can do a bit each day, just do your plant upheaval, then water change (just in case of any nasty's released from substrate), then continue with whatever tank maintenance.
When rescaping in an established tank like this (especially as it sounds to have gone through some times of limited maintenance) I like to have a bucket with treated, ~tank temperature water at hand - if you observe any livestock distress, you can quickly transfer them to the bucket.

If you've loads of algae in the tank, I'd plan on removing/clearing algae covered plants etc in a shorter time period, eg can you work on the tank daily - if spaced over weeks, incoming plants may not succeed in the struggle against the Algae Invasion - note the liquid carbon has some algicide activity.
You can also spot treat small areas with (first aid 3%) peroxide - with shrimp & a small tank you need to be careful with this.   

I'm impatient & I like complete rescapes but you sound like you have an excellent plant, so just follow your instincts.


Tropica is an excellent source of plant basics, step through all the pages of their Guide etc
Planting in the aquarium


Fantastic tank done with liquid carbon
"Serenity Peak"  

PS you asked about liquid carbon & Vallisneria & shrimp - in my experience, Vallis did just fine, as do most shrimp - just dilute the dose into a cup of water & pour into the filter outflow


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## alto (3 Jun 2016)

I forgot to say, you did a fantastic job of scaping this Edge!

Re endlers, go ahead & add 5 or so BUT choose all boys so you don't get overrun with children


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## Glenda Steel (3 Jun 2016)

Thank you so much Alto and AverageWhiteBloke, I now have a lump in my throat and blurred vision (tears again)!  I will answer properly tomorrow, running really behind due to 2 hours of work on said tank (moss nearly all gone)!  I can't thank you enough


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## alto (3 Jun 2016)

alto said:


> you sound like you have an excellent plant


 that's supposed to be excellent plaN


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## Lindy (6 Jun 2016)

I remember when you set this up and you did a great job. I agree with alto, it is much easier to rescape without fish and shrimp. Much less stressful for the fish too. Ikea do big storage containers that make great fish holding tanks. 
Round pelia is a great plant for shrimp and shrimplets and it grows in an attractive mound too. I grow it on mesh and when it gets too big l lift it out hanging upside down so it can be trimmed evenly and put back in. 
If you syphon out most of your water in to your holding tank then you can lift the decoration and plants straight into the holding tank and it should be quite easy and quick to catch everything. Use as big a net as you can.
Good luck and stop stressing! I used to get what I call my 'high anxiety ' dreams where lots of dogs that weren't in the diary would turn up for grooming, Owners would come back before dogs were finished and just every thing would go wrong! Fortunately these things never really happened but it didn't stop me worrying about it!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Glenda Steel (6 Jun 2016)

I can't thank you all enough for your wonderful advice, encouragement  and kind words about our tank (not to mention sharing your odd nightmares too)! It has helped enormously.


alto said:


> Invest in a basic battery air pump - it should come with airstone or you can pick up a sponge filter - as this way water will be oxygenated.
> As long as there isn't a ton of debris in the filter, it should be fine when power returns (very very rarely _not so nice gunk_ can come out of the stagnant filter).
> Most tanks come though power cuts just fine


Thankfully I bought one before the power cuts just in case.  I pop the ceramic media from the filter in on top of the airstone to keep the water flowing through.  I had read about doing this on the forum.  Is this a good idea?
I hadn't planned on rescaping just intensive cleaning to get on top of the algae and a little plant trimming/removal.  I had a go at catching the fish and shrimp this weekend with the plan of moving them to a stress free holding bucket.   I managed a few shrimp with a plastic drinking "glass" but it was not a huge success as the Fluval Edge makes hiding places totally inaccessible.  Not only that, one poor fish was so desperate to get out of the way he lodged himself in a vertical position behind the heater?!!!  I managed to free him and he seems non the worse for it, but needless to say I will be leaving the inhabitants in situ for the rest!  


alto said:


> Note that if you try to actually lift the Vallisneria, it's likely rooted throughout the substrate & may create rather a mess - I'm always cautious about disturbing substrate.


  I have removed most of the overgrown or damaged plants following your advice Alto and have continued with the 40 to 50% water change, vacuuming, glass and filter cleaning every other day.  I can see a difference already with many leaves greening up and algae reducing.  The fish and shrimp are far more active, with the fish shoaling out in the open again (when it's still in the room of course).


ldcgroomer said:


> Round pelia is a great plant for shrimp and shrimplets and it grows in an attractive mound too. I grow it on mesh and when it gets too big l lift it out hanging upside down so it can be trimmed evenly and put back in.


That's a great tip thank you Idcgroomer I shall look into this plant!


AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I've been in your position as has every body else at some point and the only thing that worries me about your set up is the same thing that worries me with other new comers setups and it's the most important piece. Enjoy it


I have always been scared to death of this tank and this weekend was the first time I actually did enjoy it, I even started planning another bigger tank!!???!!!  For about a year I've struggled with thinking of a way to stop the aquarium, but had no idea how.  I know I couldn't have even been in the house if the tank was being "dismantled" and the fish and shrimps re-homed.  They're now part of our family and I couldn't bear them to be hurt or stressed (or worse) so if they were going to be, then it may as well be me doing it!!!  Besides the tank was a 28th wedding anniversary present to myself and my husband, it stands for a lot and I will not give up on it!
I know I will have loads more questions soon but for the meantime, thank you so much!!!!


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## alto (8 Jun 2016)

You're an excellent fish "mom"  



Glenda Steel said:


> Thankfully I bought one before the power cuts just in case. I pop the ceramic media from the filter in on top of the airstone to keep the water flowing through. I had read about doing this on the forum. Is this a good idea?
> I hadn't planned on rescaping just intensive cleaning to get on top of the algae and a little plant trimming/removal. I had a go at catching the fish and shrimp this weekend with the plan of moving them to a stress free holding bucket. I managed a few shrimp with a plastic drinking "glass" but it was not a huge success as the Fluval Edge makes hiding places totally inaccessible. Not only that, one poor fish was so desperate to get out of the way he lodged himself in a vertical position behind the heater?!!! I managed to free him and he seems non the worse for it, but needless to say I will be leaving the inhabitants in situ for the rest!



Placing the ceramic media in this way is just fine, it's likely not very effective as most flow will just go around the obstruction (unlike a filter where flow is basically forced to travel through the area where media is placed).

You definitely want a net to catch with - or you can set up a "fish trap" (there are loads of videos for this sort of thing as well) - with the Edge it's always important to plan (practise) access In/Out
I wouldn't want to try capturing fish & shrimp without removing most of hardscape first BUT as you're happy with the present scape & substrate, your plan is as good as any  

If disturbing the substrate you can add extra Prime (Seachem claims a unique formula & I've seen data from back when detailing Prime "removal" (ie binding) of nitrogenous compounds (think ammonia, nitrite, nitrate etc) ... it's too bad all this information disappeared rather than making it's way into their "seagrams"- do they even still have the "seagrams" on the site  -   I've not checked) - at any rate, you can safely dose Prime at 10 X recommended volume to help protect livestock against any nefarious compounds released from substrate & assorted tank gunk.



Glenda Steel said:


> The fish and shrimp are far more active


Rewarding isn't it 




Glenda Steel said:


> I even started planning another bigger tank!!???!!!



You'll be glad to know that the new larger 72 litre Edge offers much better access (it's not the most economic tank but it really is lovely) - there's a video but can't find the link at this time


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## AverageWhiteBloke (8 Jun 2016)

Glenda Steel said:


> I have always been scared to death of this tank and this weekend was the first time I actually did enjoy it, I even started planning another bigger tank!!???!!!


Oh man, the bug has bit  on the plus side though bigger tanks give you a bit more room for error. Any problems manifest a bit slower with there being more volume of water. They just cost a few shilling more but hey, I've spent good money on things I've had less enjoyment out of.


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## Glenda Steel (8 Jun 2016)

alto said:


> You definitely want a net to catch with


I was using one! 


alto said:


> You're an excellent fish "mom"


So sweet but having killed most? Thank goodness we haven't any children!

I am seriously looking into liquid carbon, I use Tropica Premium ferts (had a problem with algae on the Specialised) and want to make sure it will be compatible with that + shrimp +fish +our plants (Vallis)  


alto said:


> You'll be glad to know that the new larger 72 litre Edge


Oh my!!!!!  I was thinking along the Juwel Rio 180 but we adore the look of the Edge.  That said the "balanced" glass box on the tiny stand that is the Edge gives my nightmares too!  Any visitors have to keep a safe distance for fear of knocking it over!!!  I know neurotic again!



AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Oh man, the bug has bit  on the plus side though bigger tanks give you a bit more room for error. Any problems manifest a bit slower with there being more volume of water. They just cost a few shilling more but hey, I've spent good money on things I've had less enjoyment out of.


Once I've got the hang of it  (don't hold your breath)!


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## alto (8 Jun 2016)

Glenda Steel said:


> Any visitors have to keep a safe distance for fear of knocking it over!!!


well that will prevent any scratches & people won't be able to "tap" the glass to say "hello" to the fishes  

It's really not that easy to knock a tank over when full of water - local shop has several Edge displays & they are still safe 
The 72 Edge has a wide, low footprint (& I really like the *green*! of the planted version though suspect any version can be fitted with plant suitable lighting)  




Glenda Steel said:


> So sweet but having killed most?


sadly we've all done that through inexperience ... recently I had some sort of illness in both tanks (& lost some of my favorites) - I felt terrible for having spread the illness to both tanks - I was overconfident & had assumed it was the usual run of the mill "whitespot" so didn't take extraordinary precautions (I'm generally careful between tanks but far from stringent)


When dosing the liquid carbon, just dilute the dosage into ~500 ml of water & pour slowly into the tank in the filter outlet flow & livestock will be fine.
You can start with a lower dose & then increase to recommended levels, eg, take the weekly dose (or "start up" dose) & add it daily  
I think for best plant growth effects you want to move to a daily dose anyway.




Glenda Steel said:


> I was using one!


 you mentioned getting the shrimp into a glass
& yes, I've tried to catch fish in glasses too ... can usually get a few, just not terribly efficient

Looking forward to photo updates


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## Glenda Steel (8 Jun 2016)

alto said:


> won't be able to "tap" the glass to say "hello" to the fishes


You wouldn't know we had any fish, even we wonder at times!!!  They certainly don't come out when anyone is near the tank so feeding is a case of popping it in and running out of the room in the hope they will come out in time before it gets lost in the substrate!!! 


alto said:


> It's really not that easy to knock a tank over when full of water - local shop has several Edge displays & they are still safe


This info' has made my millennium!!!!!!  

Sorry to hear about your recent tank illnesses, it's heartbreaking.  

As for the glass and net catching, it was a plastic "glass" for shrimp (I do have one of the gorgeous glass shrimp catcher but is too lovely to use) and net for fish but the fish had other ideas!  Up until recently we thought we only had 3 fish left and then we spotted the others during the power cut!  I panicked as I'd cut back on food!!!!  How much should you feed fish?   One tiny mouthful each...2...3?  Not easy to use the "if any is left over after an hour" because most of it is on the floor in an area the fish don't go

To think that when we set out with this tank the whole idea was to have gently shoaling fish to calm us during hectic days??!!!  I'd just settle for _seeing_ fish.


alto said:


> When dosing the liquid carbon, just dilute the dosage into ~500 ml of water & pour slowly into the tank in the filter outlet flow & livestock will be fine.
> You can start with a lower dose & then increase to recommended levels, eg, take the weekly dose (or "start up" dose) & add it daily
> I think for best plant growth effects you want to move to a daily dose anyway.


I will, you've convinced me and I am now trying to decide on the best one to use with the Tropica Premium ferts, at the moment I'm torn between the Seachem Flourish Excel and Easy-life Easy Carbo, any thoughts?  I plan to introduce it very, very slowly day by day

As for photo's .....too ashamed at the moment and need at least to get it looking a little better.

Thank you so much for your encouragement and mentoring!


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## Lindy (16 Jun 2016)

The juwel 180 is a lovely tank to work with, I have one. As many folk do, I removed the internal filter and run an external. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Glenda Steel (16 Jun 2016)

ldcgroomer said:


> The juwel 180 is a lovely tank to work with


Thanks Lindy, I've already been collecting ideas together on a Pinterest board!!!  Do you have a link to photo's of yours?  Also what and how do you set up an external filter (I adore the glass lily pipes would they work)?  If there's a youtube video you could recommend I would be so grateful.  It's a long way off yet as I want to get this first tank looking healthy first.  

I have started using liquid CO2 this week and there's already such a difference.  The fish and shrimp seem very spritely again.  When I have photo's showing some improvement I will post them along with the tank at it's worst ...gulp.


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## alto (16 Jun 2016)

This is ukaps so I'll suggest George Farmer's Aquascaper pages
Facebook 
Youtube
Lots there to keep you going for a bit 

Glass lily pipe - adorable certainly   but also very fragile  
You can begin with more economical versions to get your practise in, but small differences in shape/design can significantly alter flow characteristics, so it's worthwhile looking through the journals etc to find how specific models performed ... it's not unusual for people to switch back to spray bars (the outlet type included with most (external) canister filters)

Try to find a shop with display tanks/filters up & running so that you can listen to specific filters (why I always return to Eheim) & try putting the filters together & take apart for cleaning etc

Same for tanks, look at the various shapes & types of glass (the Edge has very thin glass with good clarity despite not being "optiwhite" or "low iron" etc) & cabinet builds ...sometimes kits are very well priced (but not if you're going to change out the lights, the filter etc) Sometimes there are exceptional deals to be had in the Swap section (though you likely won't have any warranty on the components).
I'm not a fan of any of the curved glass or rounded edges as it distorts perceptions, other people really like this affect.   


Tropica also has a lot of good information (done very concisely) on their website & youtube channel 




Glenda Steel said:


> the Seachem Flourish Excel and Easy-life Easy Carbo, any thoughts?


 
I've used Seachem Excel as it's readily available & I'm a great fan of Seachem in general (they've done a lot of R&D), you can start with one, then try the other brand on your second bottle 
(if there's a considerable price/availability difference, choose the most convenient/least expensive)


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## alto (16 Jun 2016)

Glenda Steel said:


> The fish and shrimp seem very spritely again.


I suspect that's a function of the nice clean water


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## Glenda Steel (16 Jun 2016)

Brilliant advice and links as always @alto


alto said:


> Try to find a shop with display tanks/filters up & running so that you can listen to specific filters


that's a great point as the tank will be situated in our living room so noisy filters may be out (although there may be something comforting in hearing it still running in my case)!  At the moment I have a spare set of filter pipes  for the Edge so I have a thoroughly clean set to go straight in during maintenance.  Perhaps if I did the same with the lily pipes?!!!  They are so stylish.


alto said:


> the Edge has very thin glass


 are you trying to worry me again???!!!!!!!  Oh I looked at the larger Edge (the green one and the matching mid-century inspired cabinet is _*gorgeous*_) but it would seem they didn't produce it for long.  There are some lovely minimal, chic white or black cabinets sets from other makes though, the Eheim Proxima is gorgeous and then this is quite something, perhaps a little big just yet...





and this  850 gallon tank (may need a bigger bucket for water changes)! Gorgeous interior too!



I shall definitely take your advice Alto and have a good browse at working models (the planning is one of the most exciting and enjoyable bits).

As far as the liquid carbon I bought Neutro Co2 from @Aqua Essentials  (https://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/neutro-co2-liquid-carbon-small-p-6361.html ) on a recommendation from @ian_m and have been using 1ml per day for 6 days and touch wood seems to have made quite a difference already.  I'm now cleaning/40% water change every 3 days now and I actually look forward to it!   Who knows I may make an aquascaper yet


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## alto (16 Jun 2016)

Glenda Steel said:


> Who knows I may make an aquascaper yet


I've every confidence!
anyone so interested (& determined) can't be stopped 




Glenda Steel said:


> are you trying to worry me again???!!!!!!!



just that you can mimic the effect of "optiwhite" with lesser quality glass (& it is still good quality glass in the Edge) when using 4-5mm glass vs older style tanks that used rather different tank build techniques  - I occasionally wander into a shop that seems to have all tanks from the last century, clunky, heavy, lots of visible sealant ... but sturdy  
I've not chipped, scratched or broken my little ADA tank yet, but I'm never tempted to lean on it the way I do my old Oceanic tanks 




Glenda Steel said:


> Oh I looked at the larger Edge (the green one and the matching mid-century inspired cabinet is _*gorgeous*_) but it would seem they didn't produce it for long


That's a shame, I know they've run into production problems after the first prototypes were revealed (maybe at Interzoo 2014???) but it seems to have gotten sorted so I was hoping they'd finally show up here  (I'm in Canada)




Glenda Steel said:


> the planning is one of the most exciting and enjoyable bits.




Stunning photos but I don't have the windows to go with ...


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