# Post-ice help



## millertime9 (1 Jan 2023)

Happy new year, all
Last year I built a little pond then a bigger pond, but without much planning! 

They are very much in the developmental stage, still need to work out the right way of hiding liners etc, but they did look good in the summer with lots of plant life, all died back over the winter though
I had loads of tadpoles which many made to froglet stage, which was superb

What was devastating though, was after they iced over with -10 degree weather, I found 11 dead frogs across both ponds 
Genuinely heartbreaking 

Now that the ice has melted, both ponds the water was stinking

I've fished out the dead frogs and a lot of dead leaves etc at the bottom of both
The smaller ones water has went back to crystal clear, but the bigger one is still very brown/murky and with a pretty bad smell

I've been using that little floating fountain, will that eventually help the big pond clear too, or should I be doing anything different?

Any help much appreciated as I want them to be hospitable for frogs again in spring and into summer

Thanks


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## mort (1 Jan 2023)

Hi, welcome.

How deep are the ponds? My initial thoughts are the frogs got caught by the quickly forming ice. We have frogs in the bottom of our ponds through the winter where they hibernate in the mud but these ponds are deep enough to not freeze more than the top inch or so. Frogs also hibernate above ground and if your weather was anything like ours, where it was warm and then sudden froze, then I think the poor things just couldn't get away from it. 

The pond should improve with the influx of rain but if you have a water butt, you might speed things up by doing a water change.


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## millertime9 (1 Jan 2023)

mort said:


> Hi, welcome.
> 
> How deep are the ponds? My initial thoughts are the frogs got caught by the quickly forming ice. We have frogs in the bottom of our ponds through the winter where they hibernate in the mud but these ponds are deep enough to not freeze more than the top inch or so. Frogs also hibernate above ground and if your weather was anything like ours, where it was warm and then sudden froze, then I think the poor things just couldn't get away from it.
> 
> The pond should improve with the influx of rain but if you have a water butt, you might speed things up by doing a water change.


Hi, thanks for replying
Yeah that's my gut instinct too, that they literally froze solid  

Just thought over the millions of years they would have evolved to avoid that

The little one is 40cm deep at its deepest and the bigger one roughly 70cm I would say
I tried all sorts of things, I can confirm tennis/footballs floating don't stop the ice!

Is the smell down to lack of gas exchange?

Will that floating fountain and the pond klear stuff sort the smell/aeration do you think?


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## millertime9 (1 Jan 2023)

Ps re the water butt...
I've just read online that rain water can be bad for your pond... what!?
How?!

I've had a wheelbarrow collecting rainwater and been pouring it into the ponds periodically  , how can that possibly be bad?!


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## martin-green (1 Jan 2023)

It used to be said the preferred method is to fill your pond with collected rain water. It is not as straightforward as you may think.
It all starts with the air quality where you live, so if (there shouldn't be) smoke in the air, this can change the ph of the water. (You have heard of acid rain?) The next thing to consider is what is the rain landing on that you then collect, some roofing materials will leach chemicals into the rain as it flows over the material (In general, if you have an old roof chances are all will be well) the next thing to consider is what the water is stored in, and how clean this storage is. You should only use a water butt designed for garden use, not an "Ex chemical storage barrel" as you don't know what was in there, and it may have leached into the plastic. What ever you do have, you should clean it out once a year to remove any build up of anything, which in turn can harbour unwanted "bugs" Also it should have a lid so that only what comes down the inlet pipe gets in. I would not recommend a wheelbarrow, for reasons mentioned above.

The "bad smell" is gas given off by the bacteria living on the rotting vegetation in the pond. Ideally you should "close the pond" at the end of the season, you basically clear out all the dead and rotting organic material (Mostly dead leaves) I put a "frame" with chicken wire over my pond about late october, my pond then vanishes as it and the surrounding area get covered in leaves, I wouldn't mind, but I don't have any trees.    In early spring you should empty the pond of everything (yes and water) and then give the liner a clean if required and you can remove anything you missed when you closed the pond.

Floating a ball on the water surface on its own was never meant to stop a pond freezing all over, you are supposed to wait until the water freezes, then remove the ball leaving an empty area for gas to get out, then put it back later in the day.  NEVER hit pond ice with a blunt object with the intention of breaking the ice, it sends shockwaves through the water which can and does kill fish and frogs. Use a heated pan and let it melt the ice. (You can also buy a "pond heater" it runs on the mains and it heats a very small area of water so it can not freeze)

A solar floating fountain is a novelty at best, and really needs bright sunshine to work which we don't get in winter, most pumps will freeze or their outlets will, so it's always best to turn them off over winter, sadly this is also true for pond filter pumps. I have seen a box pond filter freeze solid.

Contrary to popular belief, frogs do not always live in ponds, they often only go there to mate, they will hibernate (as mort said) so it is a good idea to leave some old logs or similar lying /piled near the pond so that they can get under them or in any crevices and doze off for the winter.

Most pond chemicals are good...........for the people who made or sold them. A well kept pond does not need any added chemicals. 

In an ideal world you should have a water test kit to check on pond water quality.


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## millertime9 (1 Jan 2023)

martin-green said:


> It used to be said the preferred method is to fill your pond with collected rain water. It is not as straightforward as you may think.
> It all starts with the air quality where you live, so if (there shouldn't be) smoke in the air, this can change the ph of the water. (You have heard of acid rain?) The next thing to consider is what is the rain landing on that you then collect, some roofing materials will leach chemicals into the rain as it flows over the material (In general, if you have an old roof chances are all will be well) the next thing to consider is what the water is stored in, and how clean this storage is. You should only use a water butt designed for garden use, not an "Ex chemical storage barrel" as you don't know what was in there, and it may have leached into the plastic. What ever you do have, you should clean it out once a year to remove any build up of anything, which in turn can harbour unwanted "bugs" Also it should have a lid so that only what comes down the inlet pipe gets in. I would not recommend a wheelbarrow, for reasons mentioned above.
> 
> The "bad smell" is gas given off by the bacteria living on the rotting vegetation in the pond. Ideally you should "close the pond" at the end of the season, you basically clear out all the dead and rotting organic material (Mostly dead leaves) I put a "frame" with chicken wire over my pond about late october, my pond then vanishes as it and the surrounding area get covered in leaves, I wouldn't mind, but I don't have any trees.    In early spring you should empty the pond of everything (yes and water) and then give the liner a clean if required and you can remove anything you missed when you closed the pond.
> ...


Incredible reply, im just going to bed and will properly digest it tomorrow, but just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write it
Will more than likely have another question or 2 tomorrow if you don't mind,  but thank you very much


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## Myrtle (2 Jan 2023)

It depends on what kind of pond you have as to whether rain water is bad. A koi pond has very different needs to a wildlife pond, for example. Rain water is preferable for a wildlife pond, whereas it can cause pH issues for a koi pond (I think it's the increased acidity that's the issue, anyway). My wildlife ponds are rainwater and to be honest, so is my Koi pond. 
For freezing weather, the football idea does work, and I assume you removed the football to leave the void for gas exchange when the ice had formed? It can be a pain though if the ball freezes to the surface! I tend to let nature take it' course with my wildlife ponds, within reason, and I certainly never clean the liner!


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## KirstyF (2 Jan 2023)

Whilst I would agree with taking care not to introduce accidental pollutants, I couldn’t agree with a full re-start annually, in a wildlife pond at least. Dragonfly larvae, for example, commonly live in their larval stage for around two years, and for some species, it can be up to 5 years. A good clear out may be advisable but I’m pretty sure that removing all of the ponds natural debris and mulm layers would disrupt these cycles in a way that is not beneficial. Correct me if I’m wrong but, even if you had the patience to pick through all of the debris to try to save these creatures, you would have effectively removed much of their habitat and presumably their food source.


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## mort (2 Jan 2023)

Water collection and storage is definitely something that you need to consider when thinking about using the water for ponds but I'd much prefer to use rainwater than tap for a wildlife pond. You will get rainwater entering the pond anyway and although it's a smaller proportion than if you did a large water change, I personally wouldn't be overly worried about collected water unless you know there was a problem with it (like the ones mentioned by martin).
Restarting a pond every year is pretty much the opposite of my personal views on wildlife ponds. As Kirsty mentions, there are many animals that require multi year life cycles under water before they emerge and many others that might take a few years to find the pond. A pond ecosystem is something which takes time to develop and a healthy pond can shrug most things like algae off but one constantly fiddled with will never become stable. I do agree that removing excess plant material, leaves etc, is a good idea but other than the occasional top up (should you need it in scotland) I would be hands off. This time of year is hard because we don't have the plant growth to help us out. Lots of plants is the best way to keep a pond healthy and they will do all the work much better than adding anything to the water.

40 cm is a very shallow body of water and prolonged cold will always effect it. 60 cm is the minimum depth most would suggest for a pond that would be ok through the winter.

I use a old poly box lid with a hole about an inch in the top and importantly a lip that stops most of it sitting on the waters surface to stop it freezing over. The polystyrene insulates a little area of air underneath it and allows some gas exchange through the hole. If you get prolonged cold then it only slows the surface ice but in mild weather it needs no attention.



It's a different situation but we had a similar death smell to clear up. It's a long story but the short version is, the little sod who lived behind (now taken away thankfully) was being obnoxious so our neighbour told him off. He proceeded to throw some flints over the fence and nearly hit her (plus took out one of our greenhouse panes), so she called the police on him. He didn't take it well and thinking it was us he poured what we think was bleach but don't really know, into our pond. I was away that day and when I got back the damage was done with all 20 or so fish (8-16") dead. I scooped them out, buried them and refilled and within a week or two things started to look better. This was in late November 2021 and last spring we had the most tadpoles we have ever had, so it's fish free now and for wildlife. Nature has a way of rebounding if we let it.


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## hypnogogia (2 Jan 2023)

mort said:


> He proceeded to throw some flints over the fence and nearly hit her (plus took out one of our greenhouse panes), so she called the police on him


Nasty little oik!


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## millertime9 (3 Jan 2023)

Can I just say, first of all, what an incredible forum. Superb insight from all of you and I really do appreciate the time you are all taking to try and help me.

And what your neighbouring kid did was absolutely shocking, I hope karma catches up with people like that- how you could be vindictive enough to harm innocent wildlife is beyond me

i was genuinely diatraught about the frogs, if it wasnt for me building the ponds and clearly making mistakes in the build, they wouldn't have died 
that weighs heavily on my shoulders 

To be honest, I was daft as I built the little one, not knowing much at all about what it takes to build a pond!
I added tadpoles and found myself out every single day just to look at it, it has an incredible effect on you mentally I find, so, so calming

Got to the point I was out every day with my boiled (and cooled!) Spinach handfeeding the tadpoles (which probably is against all guidance, but makes you feel part of it all!)

I then built the second larger one, going deeper and learning from my first mistakes, like liner for example under the actual liner!)


Should I really be cutting any plants at all out at this stage?

I spent a small fortune on pond plants last summer so I just don't want to damage anything 

The first pic is the smaller one, everything looks green and healthy in there (hard to see from a pic!) The second one is the larger one and the plant you can see here was my pride and joy, cost £55 I think and had 3 big strong branches and jurassic park style leaves about 25cm out the water in the summer,  but should i be cutting these right off now since they're limp in the water, with a bend in them... if so,  how far down do i cut?)

A big mistake I made was no shelves, so I built a kind of platform in the middle with bricks, but in any wind (we are semi rural and get high winds) the pots knock over 

I read a really good idea on here in another thread about basically using fish wire to tie to baskets, hang into the water and secure to wood outside the pond, that's what I will do in spring


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## mort (3 Jan 2023)

millertime9 said:


> And what your neighbouring kid did was absolutely shocking, I hope karma catches up with people like that- how you could be vindictive enough to harm innocent wildlife is beyond me



Both our neighbour and I have dogs so we didn't take it any further other than to tell them we had put cameras up and contacted the police and would press charges next time. I think he is mentally disturbed but now thankfully gone. I'm very much a forgive, forget, move on person.



millertime9 said:


> Should I really be cutting any plants at all out at this stage?



If the plants are green then no. It's only really the decaying material that you can remove (although a little will be recycled in the pond) and then any excess growth when the plants are vigorously growing. 



millertime9 said:


> had 3 big strong branches and jurassic park style leaves about 25cm out the water in the summer,  but should i be cutting these right off now since they're limp in the water, with a bend in them... if so,  how far down do i cut?)



That looks like a water lily. The leaves reached out of the water because they are used to more water depth. As long as they don't dry up in the summer they can live quite happily in shallower than normal conditions. They grow from a rhizome which looks like an old, brown, corn on the cob and you can remove the old leaves down to that. In the spring new growth will emerge from the rhizome.  


millertime9 said:


> A big mistake I made was no shelves



If you still have the labels for the plants it's a good idea to look up how deep they should be. If they are planted to deep then they can rot and you will lose them. I can't make out most of the species but it looks like you have Phalaris arundinacea var picta (variagated garter grass). It prefers wet feet only and might benefit from being above the water level, or the soil top just slightly under.


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## martin-green (3 Jan 2023)

I would also suggest you either add more water to the ponds, or lower the edges. The reason is there is too much liner exposed, you will be ok for a while, but sunshine breaks down liners (As I said, not instantly) 
I also suggest that you take away some of the rocks and make a beach area, which will make lifer easier for any wild life to get in/out Or put some plain stone slabs just above the water level to act as a step


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## mort (3 Jan 2023)

Completely agree with Martin. If the liner is still flexible, which it should be, and if you have some excess, you can do a little fettling to remedy some of your problems.


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## millertime9 (3 Jan 2023)

Yep the over exposed liner was due to not doing the banks properly

The water is as High as it can be, the sides with the exposed liner Is where that sides steeper

What could I do to hide it?

I was thinking hanging baskets with tall plants over the side, hanging with fishing wire which is screwed onto wood over the side?


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## millertime9 (3 Jan 2023)

What I really need are some plants that overhang... any recommendations for those types?


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## millertime9 (3 Jan 2023)

I'm thinking I should lift the rocks off, lift the liner up on the steeper sides and scrape the soil back so the incline isn't as great?

Ideally then put soil on top of the liner and plant marginals but i would imagine they need quite a good depth of soil to root into?


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## Myrtle (3 Jan 2023)

I did a similar thing a few years back when digging a pond and to be honest, it's probably the best time now to redo any bits you're not happy with, before anything establishes. Believe me, it's much harder once the plants are bigger! I dropped the water level really low, peeled back the liner to the middle and rebuilt the edges. You can also add shelves with stacked bricks softened with carpet offcuts or old blankets if you don't have underlay. If your garden slopes (mine does which made a similar issue to yours) you can build up the lower side to match the higher one, again with bricks or stones or, in my case, lumps of rubble!
Two of the plants I have around the edge are Creeping Jenny and Brooklime; both will grow in the water and terrestrially and make a gentle transition into the water for wildlife. On the side which you've raised, you could use your current edging stones to make a dry stone wall to disguise the raised edge. That's what I did, anyway.
Here's a freshly constructed image of mine so you can see what I mean:




3 years later


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## millertime9 (4 Jan 2023)

Myrtle said:


> I did a similar thing a few years back when digging a pond and to be honest, it's probably the best time now to redo any bits you're not happy with, before anything establishes. Believe me, it's much harder once the plants are bigger! I dropped the water level really low, peeled back the liner to the middle and rebuilt the edges. You can also add shelves with stacked bricks softened with carpet offcuts or old blankets if you don't have underlay. If your garden slopes (mine does which made a similar issue to yours) you can build up the lower side to match the higher one, again with bricks or stones or, in my case, lumps of rubble!
> Two of the plants I have around the edge are Creeping Jenny and Brooklime; both will grow in the water and terrestrially and make a gentle transition into the water for wildlife. On the side which you've raised, you could use your current edging stones to make a dry stone wall to disguise the raised edge. That's what I did, anyway.
> Here's a freshly constructed image of mine so you can see what I mean:
> View attachment 199388
> ...


Oh wow, loving that
Looks so lush
Yeah I built up one side with sandbags, I think that's what I need to do on one other side too
I think my rationale behind the steeper sides was it would be less liner showing?

So ideally, take the rocks off, pull the liner back and make the side more of a gradual incline backwards by scraping some more soil away?

Can I put soil right on top of the liner to plant marginals?
If so, how much soil depth would be required for them to root and anchor properly?

There just be a sort of mesh thing I could get that I could encourage moss or something to grow on and fill in?


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## Myrtle (4 Jan 2023)

The steeper sides are harder to disguise, plus harder for anything to get out if it falls in (hedgehogs etc and even froglets may struggle). The only downside to gently sloping sides is that the pond takes up much more space than you initially think! On another pond in my front garden, I used hessian covered in a mix of soil and gravel to encourage moss on the sloping parts. I tried it on the steeper bits too, but it didn't work well there. You can buy coir matting pre-seeded with wild flowers but it's very pricey for what it is. 
As for putting soil on the liner to plant marginals, the only thing to be careful of is that it doesn't dry out in summer when the water level drops. I've also done this on one side of my biggest pond; it first drops for marginals, then the edge is raised again then drops again for a bog area/overflow. Play around and experiment  unless you have immense experience in pond building, there's often a lot of trial and error! At least there was for me (and still is!).


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## millertime9 (4 Jan 2023)

Myrtle said:


> The steeper sides are harder to disguise, plus harder for anything to get out if it falls in (hedgehogs etc and even froglets may struggle). The only downside to gently sloping sides is that the pond takes up much more space than you initially think! On another pond in my front garden, I used hessian covered in a mix of soil and gravel to encourage moss on the sloping parts. I tried it on the steeper bits too, but it didn't work well there. You can buy coir matting pre-seeded with wild flowers but it's very pricey for what it is.
> As for putting soil on the liner to plant marginals, the only thing to be careful of is that it doesn't dry out in summer when the water level drops. I've also done this on one side of my biggest pond; it first drops for marginals, then the edge is raised again then drops again for a bog area/overflow. Play around and experiment  unless you have immense experience in pond building, there's often a lot of trial and error! At least there was for me (and still is!).


Haha yep LOTS of trial and error 
I basically built a little one last summer in the lovely weather, went and spent a fortune on pond plants then decided it wasn't big enough

So went and built another one on a spare bit of land we hand, my wife isn't amused ponds keep popping up everywhere haha 

Wish I had found this site last year though!

There is a side that's gently sloped and I've watched frogs get out on that side

So I'll build up the one side that's really low, so I can increase the water level

For the side that's already sloped, I'll take a look to see what I can do
I like the idea of gravel to make a wee kind of beach, but it's how I stop the gravel from just sliding right into the water!


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## Myrtle (4 Jan 2023)

I now have 4 ponds as I did a similar thing lol. 
I found that mixing the pebbles with some soil (mine is quite clayey (if that's a word?) helped prevent the gravel/pebbles rolling down and also helped with moss/plant coverage so baby frogs didn't get cooked in hot weather.


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