# GSA- BBA Suspect Imbalance



## Cd2021 (13 Jun 2022)

Hi Guys, 

I seem to be struggling again with BBA, but in addition now GSA more than what i have done before (BBA has always been a struggle of mine). I have tried points raised with @ceg4048 in my previous post, but i cannot seem to beat it. Main differences from that thread tank is the flow direction- neo flow v2 on each corner. 

Tank- Custom from OA Aquaria (Same size as EA900)
Filtration- Biomaster Thermo 600 & Biomaster 350 (Aqua Rio Neo Flow V2- on diaganals.
Co2- Co2 art pro se- Approx 4-5 bps- checker is lime green. I will run a PH profile in due course. 
Temp- 24 degrees
Light- Chihiros WRGB 2- 7 hours @ 35% currently. 
Substrate: Tropica soil, ADA la plata cosmetic sand.
Hardscape- Azalea root and Zebra stone. 
Fertilizer- EI- mixed as per one of the thread's on here same as 2hr Aquarist.

Tank was rescaped about 4-5 weeks ago, but even before the rescape struggling with BBA and partly the reason i rescaped.  I have tried playing about with flow, popping one of the reducers on the Co2 outflow (front right), to blow the CO2 lower, but this hasn't helped potentially made it worse.

BBA has always been my nemisis from my first Aqua one Platform 37 to now, I've read multiple threads and researched to see if there is something that i'm doing wrong or an imbalance that i cannot figure out. I'd like to think the equipment that i run is pretty good, and using it correctly. 

Appreciate any advise!
Thanks 
Chris


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## MrClockOff (13 Jun 2022)

4-5 weeks is too soon to consider it as another failure. Mine had a hard time from beginning: most of the plants old leaves got black in the first week. It looked like ammonia from aqua soil burned them despite daily 60% WC. Then standard phases: diatoms, mould on the wood, bit of thread algae and thin layer of BBA on some rocks here and there. Only after 4-5 months I started seeing real progress. Thread algae disappeared, BBA stalled. Still seeing GSA on some Anubias petite but couple of weeks ago it started turning white in some areas so looking forward too see it disappearing.

My advice is to be patient and very consistent with maintenance, fertilising and tick all boxes re flow, distribution, light and CO2 balance. 

Good luck


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## Midwife (13 Jun 2022)

BBA is demoralising and a hobby quitter. It's an  ugly prolific beast when it takes hold. Maybe it's me but I find it a bit embarrassing in my showcase aquarium.  I find light probably  the biggest issue that causes this brush algae and excess nutrients.  I've also  seen BBA growing in high flow areas so is that a real issue ???
I once started a new Aquarium  and changed 50% of the water every day for  3 months. I still got BBA.  Why ? The light intensity was wrong.
I personally  wouldn't have epiphite plants that close to the light source. I have a love/hate relationship with them.  I don't bother with them now. If I was to start another tank I would add them after 6 months or so.

You watch YouTube videos of well known youtubers and think why don't they suffer BBA.? They only seem seem to get the easy algae like dust or green spot etc to deal with. Don't always believe it. I've observed some of these setups in the background of other videos and noticed lights have been raised or replaced without any explanation. You rarely get to see the bad side of it.

Anyway, have you thought about using floating plants to help in new setups.?   They really are king.


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## Yugang (13 Jun 2022)

Midwife said:


> I once started a new Aquarium and changed 50% of the water every day for 3 months. I still got BBA. Why ? The light intensity was wrong.


When organics are low with frequent water changes and cleaning tank / filter, but still suffering BBA, the more likely suspects are flow and CO2 stability.


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## Cd2021 (14 Jun 2022)

Hi Guys, 

Thank you for your responses, greatly appreciated. 

When rescaped the soil, plants and wood is all from my previous scape (which unfortunately had BBA and partly the reason i move on from it, and more practice in scaping).  The crypts in middle left and the monte carlo are new plants. 

I'm not sure if it's something i'm missing as always had BBA issues, previous tanks etc. My Malawi tank is completely clear of it.  Water changes are 50-60% weeks, clean the pre filters weekly and dosing 10ml ferts per day. I think flow is certainly involved, but cannot but my finger on it, flow i have co2 come from the from right as your looking at the tank then straight down the front, then the other inlet/outlet in the back left corner forcing the other way. The maximum flow rate of both filters is 2350, and tank is 186l so approx 12x turnover.

I've always been unsure with floating plants, i see a lot of recommendations. 

Thanks Chris


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## Conort2 (14 Jun 2022)

Inconsistent CO2 and high organics is what I think causes it.

Spot dose with glut and up your water changes/filter cleans for now. Honestly, it don’t seem like there is a great deal there. I’ve come back from a lot worse than that with bba so don’t be too disheartened.

Cheers


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## Conort2 (14 Jun 2022)

Apologies, seen you clean the pre filters weekly. Maybe add another water change or two if you can.


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## dw1305 (14 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Midwife said:


> I've also seen BBA growing in high flow areas so is that a real issue ???


I'm pretty sure <"flow is irrelevant"> as well.

When I get it it is almost always on the pre-intake sponges or venturi & power head outflows. I think the thing that both these areas have in common is that they aren't snail grazed.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (14 Jun 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> I seem to be struggling again with BBA...


Hi @Cd2021 

I suggest that you take a look at the following:









						The Freshwater Red algae: Rhodophyta - Volume 3, Issue 3 - Gallery
					






					barrreport.com
				




BBA (Audouinella) grow naturally in streams with a high flow rate. They prefer bicarbonate as a carbon source and this corresponds to alkaline water, pH around 7.5 - 8.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (14 Jun 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> BBA (Audouinella) grow naturally in streams with a high flow rate.


Hi Everyone,

I seem to recall Tom Barr having said that the high flow rate ensures an adequate supply of phosphate to Audouinella, which secretes substances that glue itself to rocks, etc. Fascinating stuff, eh?

JPC


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## Yugang (15 Jun 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'm pretty sure <"flow is irrelevant"> as well.


Perhaps here we have some confusion between "flow" and "current"?
It is indeed well known that we often find BBA in areas with high current, near filter outlets, gyres, etc.
The flow however is a slightly different idea,         as discussed in various threads      
Although the last word on BBA has not been said, it is often associated (besides organics and CO2 stability) with too low flow and probably insufficient distribution in the tank.



Cd2021 said:


> I will run a PH profile in due course.


I agree with @Conort2 that your tank does not look bad at all, also considering it is relatively recently set up. 
My best guess is still that your CO2 is not yet balanced. Having a drop checker lime green gives some confidence, but it may still be that CO2 during photoperiod, and day-to-day has too large variations. A pH profile will give a lot of information to rule out CO2 as a root cause.

Hope this is helpful, and indeed don't give up on this beautiful tank


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## Easternlethal (15 Jun 2022)

Looks to me like the rocks are trapping food and detritus at the base of the wood which is making it difficult for the fish to get to and the flow to sweep up. Its also where the bba is occurring. I will replace the rocks - which look a little bit big..

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## jaypeecee (15 Jun 2022)

Yugang said:


> My best guess is still that your CO2 is not yet balanced.


Hi @Yugang

I'm unclear what you mean by 'not yet balanced'. What is meant by CO2 being 'balanced'?

Thanks in advance.

JPC


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## Yugang (16 Jun 2022)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Yugang
> 
> I'm unclear what you mean by 'not yet balanced'. What is meant by CO2 being 'balanced'?
> 
> ...


Specifically for BBA, and under the assumption that there is no problem with organics, the common view is that the most likely cause is CO2 stability and distribution.

Stability would require a pH profile stable within about 0.1 within the photoperiod as well as day-to day.
Distribution means that a proper flow gives a good CO2 supply throughout the tank, without dead spot areas.
This is what I losely descibed as 'balanced', in addition to the drop checker showing nicely lime green.

@Cd2021 has a beautiful tank, with (as probably all CO2 injected tanks) some BBA, and seems to do everything well. If I had to guess for a solution to improve on BBA I would focus on the pH profile.

Would it help to start CO2 injection earlier in the morning? Has pH indeed be stabilised at start of photoperiod?
Does the surface agitation/outgassing give a proper stabilisation of CO2 during photoperiod? Is CO2 stable within 0.1 pH, also day-to-day?
How about pH  measured in different spots in the tank?
These are all questions that a lime green drop checker does not answer, but are relevant for BBA control.

Note: I did not mention the balance between CO2 and light, as I am not aware if/how that would be relevant to BBA -  other than potentially unhealthy plants, leaking organics. As light  / BBA relationship is too speculative IMHO, @Cd2021 is already dimming light, and this is not intended to be the next thread on BBA management, I left that out.


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## dw1305 (16 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


Yugang said:


> Perhaps here we have some confusion between "flow" and "current"?
> It is indeed well known that we often find BBA in areas with high current, near filter outlets, gyres, etc.


Definitely in high current areas, none of my tanks have much in the way of laminar flow, they are all too full of plants. 

cheers Darrel


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## Cd2021 (20 Jun 2022)

Hi Guys, 

Thanks for responses, and sorry for delay coming back. Stag weekend, so feeling a bit sorry for myself. 

In the 3 days of being away this were noticeably different, and not for the better. Co2 comes on at 12:00, light on at 3, with a 30 mins ramp up. Co2 off at 9:15 and light off at 10:00, again with a 30 mins ramp down. 

I’ll plan to do a ph profile this weekend. I think it may be an idea to drop my light to 6 hours and 25%. The BBA seems to be over the epiphytes, the new crypts, wood, rock and decorative gravel. 

A couple of thoughts that I had that may not be helping with my tank:

Not topping up during the week. So would my co2 be inconsistent as 4-5 days in I have more surface agitation? Allow more gas to escape.
Am I over stocked? Or not enough algae grazers or scavengers. 9 kuhli loach, 5/6 merited, about 10 armano.
Flow and filtration, do I have too much? Oase biomaster thermo’s 350 and 600? And flows on diagonals of the tank?
My EI mix, do I up phosphate to combat the gsa, apparently our local water had a lot in. But seem to get missed information of it being iron phosphate therefore useless to an aquarium and therefore  difficult to measure.

Thanks
Chris


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## tigertim (20 Jun 2022)

Midwife said:


> BBA is demoralising and a hobby quitter. It's an  ugly prolific beast when it takes hold. Maybe it's me but I find it a bit embarrassing in my showcase aquarium.  I find light probably  the biggest issue that causes this brush algae and excess nutrients.  I've also  seen BBA growing in high flow areas so is that a real issue ???
> I once started a new Aquarium  and changed 50% of the water every day for  3 months. I still got BBA.  Why ? The light intensity was wrong.
> I personally  wouldn't have epiphite plants that close to the light source. I have a love/hate relationship with them.  I don't bother with them now. If I was to start another tank I would add them after 6 months or so.
> 
> ...


 +1 for floating plants, they always seem to mininise algea problems but often get over looked as a solution.


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## Aleman (21 Jun 2022)

tigertim said:


> +1 for floating plants, they always seem to mininise algae problems but often get over looked as a solution.


I love the idea of using stem plants as "temporary" floating plants, that was posted recently. Gave me a use for my myriophyllum brasiliensis trimmings  prolific grower!!


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## Cd2021 (22 Jun 2022)

tigertim said:


> +1 for floating plants, they always seem to mininise algea problems but often get over looked as a solution.


Why would floaters assist with Algae issues? I can't see how floaters would assist in my situation with BBA issue? 

Thanks
Chris


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## dw1305 (22 Jun 2022)

Hi all,


Cd2021 said:


> Why would floaters assist with Algae issues?



They act as a <"net curtain">, reducing light levels.
They aren't <"CO2 limited">, so are very efficient at <"nutrient reduction">.
Their roots are <"leaky structures"> and provide alternative sites for microbial growth.
They help provide a more <"diverse and stable environment">.
There maybe <"allelopathic effects"> with _Ceratophyllum demersum_ etc.



Cd2021 said:


> I can't see how floaters would assist in my situation with BBA issue?


We really don't know what causes "outbreaks" of  "Red Algae" (Rhodophyta), but their abundance often declines in <"more established, more stable, tanks">.

In my own tanks I think BBA is reduced by <"Ramshorn snail grazing">.  For whatever reason they don't tend to get GSA, so I don't really have any experience of that.

I'd actually like a <"bit more algae"> in some of the tanks

cheers Darrel


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## Cd2021 (24 Jun 2022)

Hi Darrell, 

Okay, that makes sense. Any in particular you'd recommend for my setup. I'm going to look for some faster growing plants too, and after watching George's latest video change the co2 output to the back of the tank too. Just don't want to change too much too quickly.

That makes sense, as i always play about with the setup etc, make it look at a little better. 

I'd love a period without the algae haha. I'll send some over!

Thanks
Chris


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## dw1305 (24 Jun 2022)

Hi all, 


Cd2021 said:


> Any in particular you'd recommend for my setup.


In terms of the job they do? Then any (or all) <"of them">. 

I keep  "Water Lettuce" (_Pistia stratiotes_), "Floating Fern" (_Salvinia auriculata_ group) and "Amazon Frogbit" (_Limnobium laevigatum_). 

If I only kept one it would be Amazon Frogbit, mainly because it has a <"nice green leaf"> which means I can use it as my <"Duckweed"> of choice for the <"Duckweed Index">.


Cd2021 said:


> I'm going to look for some faster growing plants too,


I like "Hornwort" (_Ceratophyllum demersum_) and "Indian Fern" (_Ceratopteris "thalictroides"_), they are <"sub-surface floaters"> and easy to remove, should you wish to.

cheers Darrel


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## Cd2021 (26 Jun 2022)

Hi All, 

Thanks Darrel. I’ll have a look into them and get some. 

Ph profile carried out over today: 
Tank water: cup left to sit for approx 18 hours. 7.6. 
12:00- co2 on- 7.03
3:00- light on- 6.62
4:07- 6.64
5:00- 6.41
6:00- 6.40
7:00- 6.49
8:00- 6.49
9:00- 6.51. 
Co2 goes off at 9:15 then light off at 10:00. 

I think I need to adjust gas to come on 1 hour earlier. 

Thanks,
Chris


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## MrClockOff (26 Jun 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> I think I need to adjust gas to come on 1 hour


Yep


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## Yugang (27 Jun 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thanks Darrel. I’ll have a look into them and get some.
> 
> ...


As your lowest pH is 6.4, you would aim to keep pH between 6.5 and 6.4 during photoperiod (if you aim for 0.1 stability). This is achieved between 4:00 and 5:00, and it would be even better to start injecting not 1 but 2 hours earlier.

Considering your tank size and time it takes to ramp up CO2, my gut feeling says that you can improve your profile by creating more surface agitation and correspondingly injecting more CO2. It is why I still believe you may have an issue with your flow as well.

Your daily pH profile as per above is important, but have you measured day-to-day stability as well? You may want to note your 6:00 pH for everyday during one or two weeks. This is often overlooked, and perhaps even more difficult to achieve than a one-day good profile. Surface outgassing varies with flow, CO2 regulators drift, etcetera.

Plants need to adapt to variations in CO2, this comes at a cost for them. Be reminded that every 0.1 pH variation corresponds to as much as 25% CO2 ppm (it is a logartithmic relationship).


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## Cd2021 (28 Jun 2022)

Hi Yugang, 

Thanks for coming back to me. 

I have tried to take a picture of my surface agitation. I always thought it would be best to have minimal to minimise gas escaping, but with enough flow to oxygenate at water.  I have the Aquario Neo Flow at the lowest point but can higher this and up the gas level. 

Do you have any advise how to set out my outputs or leave as they are? 

I have also been thinking about in tank diffuser rather than inline. And I’ve kept the light lower whilst we’re messing about and dosing excel which seems to be helping. 

Thanks
Chris


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## Cd2021 (28 Jun 2022)

And just to add, also thinking of getting rid of the sand foreground and having soil and planting instead.


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## PARAGUAY (28 Jun 2022)

True Siamese Algae Eaters will graze on BBA  best to get young ones before they become adult then possibly re-home depending on their size.  George Farmer on one of his latest YT found moving flow direction the BBA all but disappeared


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## Yugang (29 Jun 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> I have tried to take a picture of my surface agitation.


I find it difficult from the picture to see any surface agitation. 
You like to achieve also a good distribution through your tank, through a gentle flow (like in a large slow moving river). You do NOT want to have localised high current (mountain stream), as this is known to do the oposite of what you want to achieve and indeed promotes BBA's.



Cd2021 said:


> I always thought it would be best to have minimal to minimise gas escaping


This is not correct, you need a decent surface agitation and outgassing at the surface for the system to reach a stability before lights on.
The following link may be helpful:








						Surface agitation & gaseous exchange in CO2 injected tanks
					

Surface agitation in a planted aquarium - yes or not ? This page explores why having some surface agitation and turnover is actually useful in planted tanks and actually makes tuning CO2 to optimal levels more easy.




					www.2hraquarist.com
				




General plant health (no dying and orchanics leaching leaves) may also be important, but this is more my personal opinion and may be true or not.


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## erwin123 (29 Jun 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> I have also been thinking about in tank diffuser rather than inline. And I’ve kept the light lower whilst we’re messing about and dosing excel which seems to be helping.


You can do both inline and intank if you want to....  I bought a cheap splitter from a China seller and it works fine.....


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## Cd2021 (10 Jul 2022)

Hi Guys, 

Sorry for delay responding. Got married last week, then been away for a week. So you can imagine the mess of a tank I’ve come back to. 

I’m not really one to agree with getting fish for a job then rehoming. 

I’m going to spend the day on it early this week and get it back on track. Remove the sand and stones, debating just putting soil in the bottom as the sand is only looking good for a couple of weeks. 

Do you think the positioning of my inlet and outlet are okay? I will raise the outlet to give more surface agitation. 

I’ve tried the splitters on my previous setup- also had bba but managed to get on top of that. And was never that stable or consistent. 

Thanks
Chris


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## sparkyweasel (10 Jul 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> Got married last week,


Congratulations!


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## Cd2021 (15 Jul 2022)

Hi Guys, 

Big maintenance session completed on Wednesday:

Filters cleaned
Neo flows cleaned and bleached
pipes cleaned
replaced sand and removed decorative gravel.
swapped diffuser ceramic.

I’ve also raised my Neo flow outputs by about 2 inches and turned gas up slightly? And will run a ph profile today, then will update with my results and pictures. I’ve brought a bottle of apt fix and will spot dose daily. 

I need to make up some more ferts, i done my last one to @Deano3 2hr aquarist style. But will raise phosphate slightly to hopefully combat the gsa. 

Will keep posted. 

Thanks
Chris


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## Cd2021 (19 Jul 2022)

Hi Guys, 

Carried out a PH profile over Friday and some of Saturday (had a wedding to go to), and my results are as follows:

Tank PH 7.76

Friday:
12:00 (Gas on)- 7.1
12:30- 6.8
1:00- 6.46
1:30- 6.34
2:00- 6.63
2:30- 6.68
3:00 (Light on)- 6.78
3:30- 6.73
4:00- 6.57
6:00- 6.66
6:30- 6.51
7:00- 6.56 (Filter off for 5 mins to do APT Fix)

Saturday- Not a very good one, busy day.
12:00- 7.22
12:30- 6.88
2:00- 6.76
3:00- 6.71

Is that a little unstable? Or seem to be where it should be?

Thanks
Chris


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## erwin123 (19 Jul 2022)

Easternlethal said:


> Looks to me like the rocks are trapping food and detritus at the base of the wood which is making it difficult for the fish to get to and the flow to sweep up. Its also where the bba is occurring. I will replace the rocks - which look a little bit big..
> 
> Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


Thats an interesting point - how would one do cleaning of these areas - should the rocks be removed once in a while to do a proper vacuuming of the area around the base of the wood?


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## Yugang (19 Jul 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> Is that a little unstable? Or seem to be where it should be?


In summary, Yes and No.
You may want to review previous observations on your pH profile, earlier in this thread, and suggestions what you can do to improve stability. Always happy to help with clarifications if those were not helpful.


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## Cd2021 (19 Jul 2022)

Hi Yugang, 

Thank you for coming back to me. 

A ph drop of 1 has been achieved, but fluctuating more than 0.1 ph- generally 0.2-0.3. But i'm not sure why? Do i now have too much surface agitation. Or would i be better aiming for the 6.4 mark again? 

This is where i'm a little confused. I must say i'm impressed by APT fix, seem to be getting better results than Seachem excel. 

Thanks
Chris


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## Yugang (20 Jul 2022)

Cd2021 said:


> A ph drop of 1 has been achieved, but fluctuating more than 0.1 ph- generally 0.2-0.3


As        per my previous post      you want to try and have no more than 0.1 pH variation during the photo period.



Cd2021 said:


> But i'm not sure why?





Yugang said:


> This is not correct, you need a decent surface agitation and outgassing at the surface for the system to reach a stability before lights on.



So         as i decribed       you may start your injection earlier before lights on, but I also suspect your tank may benefit from increased surface agitation. Your current 0.3 pH variation during photoperiod is  on the high side, and may be one of the contributors.

While CO2 stability is relevant, please also note the importanance of a clean tank (organics), correct flow and distribution, and the benefit of adding healthy fast growing plants. It is the combination of these that may give you the best result.


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## Cd2021 (20 Jul 2022)

Hi Yugang, 

Thank you for your response. 

0.1 ph variation is what i'll be aiming for. What i don't understand is why i have so much variation? Surely even if I up the injection rate slightly, i'm still going to have the variation for some reason? Is this due to now having too much surface agitation? Therefore shall i now drop my outlet's by maybe 1/2 inch. Would a video be better?

Organics in the tank i don't think are an issue, lots of filtration and a big maintenance session last week. Perhaps in the initial outbreak, but i will be keeping on top of.

Kind Regards
Chris


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## Yugang (20 Jul 2022)

The article that has been referred above gives you the answer
Surface agitation & gaseous exchange in CO2 injected tanks
pH will gradually approach its minumum, never be perfectly stable. Yet as the article explains you can speed things up, and have quicker stabilisation, when you use more agitation as well as more injection.

As I described in       my previous post    you can just start the injection earlier, so that when lights go on the pH is within 0.1 from what you know will be the lowest point during the day. I  noticed that your pH moved quite slowly, and from personal experience I would guess that your surface agitation is rather low. Higher agitation and higher injection (this is needed to still get the 1.0 pH drop) is always helpfull. With too low agitation however you may have the problem that pH will take many many hours to stabilise.

Also helpfull Dialling in the CO2 injection Rate and CO2 Profiles
​


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## jaypeecee (28 Jul 2022)

Hi @Cd2021

Are you still struggling with BBA?

If so, I have just managed to track down a scientific paper that deals with freshwater Rhodophyta of which Audouinella is one such example. This species of algae is commonly known as - you guessed it - Black Brush Algae/BBA. It prefers alkaline water with pH up to 8.5. And this is because it has a higher affinity for inorganic carbon in the form of bicarbonate. But, freshwater Rhodophyta are complex little devils. I quote the following:

"Rates of net photosynthesis along the light period revealed a general pattern for all algae tested (Fig. 6), which is characterized by two relatively clear peaks: a first (higher) during the morning (07.00–11.00 hours) and a second (lower) in the afternoon (14.00–18.00 hours)". And they prefer low light regimes.

The very nature of BBA are that they have complex needs. But the attached paper below highlights some of the factors that we need to address if we are to make them unwelcome visitors to our tanks:









						(PDF) Photosynthetic performance of freshwater Rhodophyta in response to temperature, irradiance, pH and diurnal rhythm
					

PDF | Responses of net photosynthetic rates to temperature, irradiance, pH/inorganic carbon and diurnal rhythm were analyzed in 15 populations of eight... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net
				




If you run into any problems with the science, just let us know. There are enough of us here to lend a helping hand, myself included.

JPC


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## Cd2021 (2 Aug 2022)

Hi JPC,

Thanks for sending across. The BBA is still present, i will certainly have a look through this- although i think will be well above me! haha. 

I am currently dosing APT fix daily, with seems to be combating but ultimately not solving the issue.

Kind Regards
Chris


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