# Starting to think fish!



## KirstyF (4 Dec 2021)

Starting to consider what fish for the new tank though won’t be stocking before the new year. Would love some Apistos but it would seem that they apparently prefer slower moving water, dim lighting and most prefer softer water. 

Tank - 700ltrs - L84” 
Gh 11-12
Kh-estimated around 12
Ph- 6.4-7.4 (Co2 injected) 
Flow - Fairly strong at one end, though calmer at the other
Plenty of plant growth for cover and some floaters but will ultimately not be what I would class as a dimly lit tank.

I believe borellii could deal with the harder water, but how critical is the lighting? Would the darker areas amongst planting and patches of diffused light under floaters be enough to keep them content? Also, are there any other types that might work in this tank?

If so, what numbers/groupings would you recommend?

I’m not looking to breed specifically so the tank would be allowed to produce naturally, or not as the case may be. 

I know that folks keep contented fishes in conditions a little outside of what is considered perfect, I’ve done so myself with no ill effects, but never kept these (or any cichlids) before so interested in others personal knowledge/experiences.


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## mort (5 Dec 2021)

Borellii can be kept in groups and are one of the least territorial apistogramma there are, plus you have a lot more space than the average person does so I wouldn't be overly worried by a group. The one thing is they tend to prefer cooler temperatures than most community fish so that something to consider. The lighting is less important for captive bred strains but as you say, dense plant growth will make them feel secure.


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

Thanks @mort 
I’m reading that temp wise, the top end of their range is either 25 or 26 degrees (depending on website) and the lower range of some other fishes under consideration is 23 degrees so I’m thinking maybe a target of 24 degrees could be a sweet spot?  

I also love some of the other Apisto’s like macmasteri and agassizii but my reading up tells me they need softer water than I have so would be a less wise choice.


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## Conort2 (5 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> I also love some of the other Apisto’s like macmasteri and agassizii


I think the domesticated strains of macmasteri are pretty hardy and tolerant when it comes to harder water. I’d agree that the agassizi would like it a bit softer although I’m not too sure about the domesticated strains. Cacutoides are definitely one that can be kept in harder water too. I’ve spawned them and raised fry to adult in London tap water which is rock hard.

Cheers


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

Conort2 said:


> I think the domesticated strains of macmasteri are pretty hardy and tolerant when it comes to harder water. I’d agree that the agassizi would like it a bit softer although I’m not too sure about the domesticated strains. Cacutoides are definitely one that can be kept in harder water too. I’ve spawned them and raised fry to adult in London tap water which is rock hard.
> 
> Cheers



That’s great and good to know. The cacutoides seem to be happier with slightly warmer temps too, so could be a really nice choice. 👍 😊


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## Wolf6 (5 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> Starting to consider what fish for the new tank though won’t be stocking before the new year. Would love some Apistos but it would seem that they apparently prefer slower moving water, dim lighting and most prefer softer water.
> 
> Tank - 700ltrs - L84”
> Gh 11-12
> ...


I love borelli, not only because I think its the most beautiful apisto but also their inquisitive personality without much aggression. The opal variant is also pretty, but I think I prefer the original. I'd go for one male  2 female and have another pair of dwarves like nannacara anomala. Should be plenty of space!


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

Hi @Wolf6 
Keeping two types would be great as I’m not planning on having too much else for the bottom layer, although I’ve been considering galaxy rasbora as one of two ‘shoals’ and they apparently tend to hang out a bit lower down and can be a bit timid I believe. Second shoal is likely to be cardinal tetra for mid to upper. Can you see any obvious issues with that plan?

(I know they might not all stick rigidly to specific spaces but trying to work with natural behaviours I guess.)

Also, looking at Amano shrimp on the basis of being good cleaners and a little larger and less easy to snack on, so would these guys be Amano friendly?


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## Jaseon (5 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> Hi @Wolf6
> Also, looking at Amano shrimp on the basis of being good cleaners and a little larger and less easy to snack on, so would these guys be Amano friendly?



I wouldn't feel easy putting any sort of Cichlid in with shrimp, but may be ok with the dwarf varieties.

Whatever you choose to do id be inclined to add the shrimp first so they feel more settled, and at home. Putting them in later will just make fish that might pester them more curious.


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## mort (5 Dec 2021)

24c will be a good temperature. I'm one of the weirdo's that like to have a fluctuating seasonal temperature but 24c will be fine for borellii. I also agree with Conort2 that you may have luck with other species as well as captive breeding has made them much more adaptable to water chemistry. It can be harder to breed them but I know plenty of people that have kept agassizi and cacatuoides in hard water (I bred panduro in soft water but raised their fry to saleable age in much harder norwich water, which seemed to do them no harm, this was during a drought when rain water was non existent).

It's quite refreshing to see someone wanting small fish for such a vast tank. Often people add larger species and it really makes the tank look small. The cardinals will be great dither fish for the apistogramma and will help bring out the galaxy rasbora which can be shy. The galaxy's are really nice fish and I don't want to discourage you from them but you will need a large number to get them out and about and it might be an idea to think of another group of fish to compliment them (as well as the cardinals) as they are a perfect nano tank inhabitant but often get a bit lost in large tanks.


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## Wolf6 (5 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> Hi @Wolf6
> Keeping two types would be great as I’m not planning on having too much else for the bottom layer, although I’ve been considering galaxy rasbora as one of two ‘shoals’ and they apparently tend to hang out a bit lower down and can be a bit timid I believe. Second shoal is likely to be cardinal tetra for mid to upper. Can you see any obvious issues with that plan?
> 
> (I know they might not all stick rigidly to specific spaces but trying to work with natural behaviours I guess.)
> ...


Everything depends on spots to hide. I had heard horror stories about sparkling gourami and cherry shrimps but mine only bother shrimp marginally and easily lose track among the mosses and wood. They dont look at the amano at all. But I have not tried it yet so no guarantee. Amano is quite big for a borelli or nannacara to bother though, so I think it will be fine.


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

mort said:


> 24c will be a good temperature. I'm one of the weirdo's that like to have a fluctuating seasonal temperature but 24c will be fine for borellii. I also agree with Conort2 that you may have luck with other species as well as captive breeding has made them much more adaptable to water chemistry. It can be harder to breed them but I know plenty of people that have kept agassizi and cacatuoides in hard water (I bred panduro in soft water but raised their fry to saleable age in much harder norwich water, which seemed to do them no harm, this was during a drought when rain water was non existent).
> 
> It's quite refreshing to see someone wanting small fish for such a vast tank. Often people add larger species and it really makes the tank look small. The cardinals will be great dither fish for the apistogramma and will help bring out the galaxy rasbora which can be shy. The galaxy's are really nice fish and I don't want to discourage you from them but you will need a large number to get them out and about and it might be an idea to think of another group of fish to compliment them (as well as the cardinals) as they are a perfect nano tank inhabitant but often get a bit lost in large tanks.



I do rather like smaller fishes and agree that it maintains that ‘miniature world’ feel. The cichlids, at a massive 3” for males 😂, will likely be the biggest in there. 

I was thinking of at least 20 Galaxy Ras and the tank could easily take more if needed. They are just so beautiful and, as long as they are happy in the environment, I don’t mind ‘working for my supper’. I can watch a tank for a looong time so, although I still prefer a bit of colour on smaller fish, I don’t need them to be front and centre so much. 

It’s the little interactions that can be so fascinating and the attraction to cichlids is not only because they are lovely to look at, but because so many keepers talk about their character. 

Any suggestions for another group? I like chilli ras, another teeny tiny and fairly active fish I believe, but I think they prefer to swim a bit higher up and, by necessity, the flow across the top of the tank is fairly strong, so concerned it may be too much for these little fellas.


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

@Jaceree @Wolf6 
Sounds like the Amano’s are worth a go and they will be in the tank before the Cichlids, so hopefully that will work out. 😊


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## Konsa (5 Dec 2021)

Hi
Adult Amano shrimp(esp females)are beasts that very few of the fish we keep in planted tanks will have a go at.
I am keeping Amanos in my SAP puffer tank for last 3 years and have no issues.
Regards Konstantin


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Adult Amano shrimp(esp females)are beasts that very few of the fish we keep in planted tanks will have a go at.
> I am keeping Amanos in my SAP puffer tank for last 3 years and have no issues.
> Regards Konstantin



👍
I’ve always kept them in previous tanks but never had any fish that were even remotely feisty, so good to know that even your puffers leave them alone. 😊


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## sparkyweasel (5 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> It’s the little interactions that can be so fascinating and the attraction to cichlids is not only because they are lovely to look at, but because so many keepers talk about their character.


Definitely consider _Nannacara anomala_ as mentioned by @Wolf6 . Full of character and happy in hard water.


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

sparkyweasel said:


> Definitely consider _Nannacara anomala_ as mentioned by @Wolf6 . Full of character and happy in hard water.



That borellii/nannacara combination is sounding pretty good, busily researching as we speak 😊👍

Can anyone advise on whether there would be any advantages to adding two groups simultaneously (so they can sort out their territories) one group at a time, or does it not really matter?


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## shangman (5 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> That borellii/nannacara combination is sounding pretty good, busily researching as we speak 😊👍
> 
> Can anyone advise on whether there would be any advantages to adding two groups simultaneously (so they can sort out their territories) one group at a time, or does it not really matter?


I would add them at the same time of possible, it will stop them from establishing a territory and then considering the other fish an interloper that needs to be seen off. Evens the playing field.

I would add them last also, all the fish I've added after adding the apistos have got a bit of harassment for a few days, even if it's just curiously swimming up to them and poking them with their nose to investigate.... Other fish don't seem to appreciate it much! They like to really investigate anything that enters their territory

With the schools I recommend at least 30, they will not look like many in a tank your size and at 25-30 is where I've noticed the behaviour starts to get really interesting.


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## Wolf6 (5 Dec 2021)

With the group fish id go for one large group, say 40 or 50, and one smaller group of 15 or so. Enough for them to feel happy but the size difference of the group will make them eh less competing for the viewers gaze. Mine happen to be the same colour because I already had a secundairy group fish, but I would have gone with different colours given the chance from scratch. 
I have found cardinals to be more mid/lower mid the  upped mid. Kubotai I found to be more upper/mid, same with Harlequins.


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## KirstyF (5 Dec 2021)

Thanks for the advice guys. Really appreciated. 😊


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## Gorillastomp (6 Dec 2021)

@KirstyF I do have amano shrimp with 6" discus. They been there for over a years no issue. Like @Konsa said female are pretty big. Just make sure they have some place to hide in case.


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## KirstyF (4 Dec 2021)

Starting to consider what fish for the new tank though won’t be stocking before the new year. Would love some Apistos but it would seem that they apparently prefer slower moving water, dim lighting and most prefer softer water. 

Tank - 700ltrs - L84” 
Gh 11-12
Kh-estimated around 12
Ph- 6.4-7.4 (Co2 injected) 
Flow - Fairly strong at one end, though calmer at the other
Plenty of plant growth for cover and some floaters but will ultimately not be what I would class as a dimly lit tank.

I believe borellii could deal with the harder water, but how critical is the lighting? Would the darker areas amongst planting and patches of diffused light under floaters be enough to keep them content? Also, are there any other types that might work in this tank?

If so, what numbers/groupings would you recommend?

I’m not looking to breed specifically so the tank would be allowed to produce naturally, or not as the case may be. 

I know that folks keep contented fishes in conditions a little outside of what is considered perfect, I’ve done so myself with no ill effects, but never kept these (or any cichlids) before so interested in others personal knowledge/experiences.


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## mort (6 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> Any suggestions for another group? I like chilli ras, another teeny tiny and fairly active fish I believe, but I think they prefer to swim a bit higher up and, by necessity, the flow across the top of the tank is fairly strong, so concerned it may be too much for these little fellas.



Chili's are nice when they are settled and happy but if I had the choice I'd go for the slightly larger ember tetra which can look stunning in a big group. I saw kubotai rasbora mentioned as well which seem another good option and they bring a different colour. Emerald dwarf rasbora are a nice fish but perhaps to similar to the galaxy rasbora (I think I'm right in saying they can interbreed with cpd's).
There would be more choices, even those that like the higher water movement like white cloud mountain minnows, but some of these might out compete the shyer galaxies or boras for food.

I also agree with the others that amano should be fine unless you are really unlucky. It's also good advice to get the more peaceful species settled before introducing the cichlids at the same time.


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## KirstyF (6 Dec 2021)

mort said:


> Chili's are nice when they are settled and happy but if I had the choice I'd go for the slightly larger ember tetra which can look stunning in a big group. I saw kubotai rasbora mentioned as well which seem another good option and they bring a different colour. Emerald dwarf rasbora are a nice fish but perhaps to similar to the galaxy rasbora (I think I'm right in saying they can interbreed with cpd's).
> There would be more choices, even those that like the higher water movement like white cloud mountain minnows, but some of these might out compete the shyer galaxies or boras for food.
> 
> I also agree with the others that amano should be fine unless you are really unlucky. It's also good advice to get the more peaceful species settled before introducing the cichlids at the same time.



WCCM are very lovely, I particularly like the gold type. Might be pushing it a little on temp parameters. Quite like leopard danios too, and they would like the flow but pretty sure the CPD’s would never get to eat. I’m guessing maybe the WCCM are similarly food hogs. 

I’ve recently seen gold ring danios that are apparently a little more chilled but don’t come up for sale too often. They are beauty’s though! 

Not so sure about the ember Tetra but may be overly influenced by seeing so many looking washed out in stores. Then again I’ve had cherry barb that were pretty insipid on arrival and gorgeous once they’d coloured up. 

Lots to think about. 😊


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## Conort2 (6 Dec 2021)

KirstyF said:


> I’ve recently seen gold ring danios that are apparently a little more chilled but don’t come up for sale too often. They are beauty’s though!


They’re great and stay tiny. They’re good tankmates for cpd’s as they like similar conditions and are no where near as boisterous as the commonly available danios. You could have a massive shoal in your tank.


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## mort (6 Dec 2021)

Wccm seem absolutely fine in 23/24c, probably because have had so many generations of captive breeding. It might not be optimal for them but they don't seem to mind the slightly warmer temperatures. It's a pretty similar case with the danios nowadays.

Gold ringed danios are beautiful fish and I agree with Conort2 again in that they are far less feisty than other danios. They have a subtle beauty that you only really see on close inspection, my kind of fish.

Embers can really sparkle in some peoples tanks but I do think it's a bit of a gamble with getting good stock. I've not ever had them myself for the same reason as you suggest but they are a popular choice for aquascapers and they normally look great. I tend to go for more overlooked species like reed tetra.


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## KirstyF (6 Dec 2021)

Conort2 said:


> They’re great and stay tiny. They’re good tankmates for cpd’s as they like similar conditions and are no where near as boisterous as the commonly available danios. You could have a massive shoal in your tank.



Cool. So maybe that’s my third shoal then. Cardinal Tetra for a bit of bling and CPD and  Gold Ring Danio that will take a little more looking for. 👍 
Otto’s and Amano as cleaners and some cichlids to cruise the bottom layers. 
Maybe a few 🐌. 
This is one of the joys of the big tank tbf. 😊


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## Conort2 (6 Dec 2021)

To be fair Vietnamese cardinal minnows are another beauty if you like the look of wcmm. I think they may like it a bit warmer too.

Cheers


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## KirstyF (6 Dec 2021)

mort said:


> I tend to go for more overlooked species like reed tetra.


 And now you come up with another option. 😳😂
Happy to have the suggestions guys. I’ve got a month to go before starting to stock I’ll likely go round in a few circles before then. (I have with everything else on this tank 😂)


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