# What my angels are doing?



## Madhav (24 Apr 2017)

Tank is 90cmx45cmx45cm
8 blue angels around 1yr of age
3 koi angels temporary tank mates

I know its over stocked but my intention was to identify a potential pair and to remove all others.

This tank is for breeding angels, atleast try my luck.

Can anybody tell me is this the first signs to identify the pair? 

#They chase other angels away
#they dont bother other fish and not swimming together now
#clean the dirt away from the filter inlet surface




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## Progen (24 Apr 2017)

They're most likely preparing a laying site. I'd be hoping that their eggs are infertile and a third party comes into the picture soon because once they start pairing off and laying eggs, you'll be seeing eggs every 1 - 2 months.


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## zozo (24 Apr 2017)

Yup if they are chasing others away, thay are mating up and inspecting and preparing that pipe for spawning. You could wait till you see eggs before removing the others. For angels this is pretty obvious, since they use a vertical surface for spawning you will notice the white eggs easily.  And it takes a while before the pair desides to abandon the nest or eat the eggs themselfs.

Actualy i never witnessed what realy happens, but in a community tank where they are threatened by other predators. One day all eggs are just gone, kinda over night. So i guess the parents eat them out of frustration or something..


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## Madhav (24 Apr 2017)

Progen said:


> They're most likely preparing a laying site. I'd be hoping that their eggs are infertile and a third party comes into the picture soon because once they start pairing off and laying eggs, you'll be seeing eggs every 1 - 2 months.


Fertile or infertile? Im confused with your statements. Any way I take it as fertile as I am hoping to get a third party soon..

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## Madhav (24 Apr 2017)

zozo said:


> Yup if they are chasing others away, thay are mating up and inspecting and preparing that pipe for spawning. You could wait till you see eggs before removing the others. For angels this is pretty obvious, since they use a vertical surface for spawning you will notice the white eggs easily.  And it takes a while before the pair desides to abandon the nest or eat the eggs themselfs.
> 
> Actualy i never witnessed what realy happens, but in a community tank where they are threatened by other predators. One day all eggs are just gone, kinda over night. So i guess the parents eat them out of frustration or something..


3 koi sent to their permanent home. Now left with 8 of same breed blue angels.

Is it a good idea to use a tank partition to isolate the pair, without affecting water movement? I see the grid is 1" square fish cant cross but for water, less obstruction.

Or temporarily move the others to a separate tank? I have a spare 2ft tank and filter. Media is not a problem.

Too excited...

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## zozo (24 Apr 2017)

I'm not a angel breeder, i just was lucky to get them to spawn several times in a community tank. So i kinda witnessed their breeding behaivor several times. But since it was a community tank, never realy got any fry to survive to adults. This is pretty hard if not impossible to achieve in a community tank. Dunno i never did. They always eat their own eggs if bodered to much in their rearing process i guess. 

So i'm experienced in recognizing their behaivor, but rearing fry.. You have to wait for somebody else..  I bet there are enough..


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## Progen (24 Apr 2017)

Same as breeding shrimps. Most of the time, the little fry get sucked into filters and die inside or get churned up. 

You'll need to standby live tiny stuff like freshly hatched brine shrimp although I used Hikari fry food which is just basically finely ground fish food.

They're not difficult but once they're free swimming, if you want a high survival rate, you'll need to remove ALL adults, including their parents, and anything else which might eat them.

Because of their fairly large sizes as adults, low demands and market prices plus large tank requirements, breeding angels is not a good idea.


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## Mick.Dk (25 Apr 2017)

I breed angels - but agree you will not make money out of it  - it is fun, though, if you want to observe parential behaviour in cichlids.
Your angels have obviously paired off and are cleaning a space for laying their eggs (probaply done, by now!). For successfull (natural) breeding, you will need a tank for the pair on their own. Usually first-time breeding pair do not succeed, but often they learn after 2, 3 or 4 times. Some never learn, though.
A huge( = 30-50%) wayerchange ofyen induce breeding behaviour. Temp must ne high (=28-30 celcius) to secure eggs hatch and especially that larvae (=newly hatched) will have high enough metabolism, to get free swimming. From eggs laid to free swimming is usually 5-7 fays, depending a lot of temp.
Newly hatched brine shrimp must be prepared to be ready at first day of free swimming, since fry have then up-used their energy from the egg. Very ofyen the fry will refuse to eat non-moving food (=crushed dry-food) for several weeks, probaply by instinct. Crushed dry-food must then be "sneaked" inbetween live food gradually. Food needs to be given at least 3 times a day - more often if possible - in high doses. Serious waterchanges are essential daily, to secure fresh water, or fry will be permanently damaged(=croocked fins, non-developed gill-caps to mention a few). Good luck and have patience - it is a lot of fun!!!


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## Madhav (26 Apr 2017)

Progen said:


> Same as breeding shrimps. Most of the time, the little fry get sucked into filters and die inside or get churned up.
> 
> You'll need to standby live tiny stuff like freshly hatched brine shrimp although I used Hikari fry food which is just basically finely ground fish food.
> 
> ...


Hmmm with my eheim I think all the fry will be sucked in, I am not planning to have any special arrangements for the fry except fry food

I am just excited to breed them not making money out of it, so worst case if I cant handle such bio load or requirements then I will give away


Lets see how it goes

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## dw1305 (26 Apr 2017)

Hi all, 





Madhav said:


> Hmmm with my eheim I think all the fry will be sucked in


I have a <"*large* sponge block"> on the intake of the filters, it acts as a browsing surface for any fry , as well as stopping fry (and organic debris) ending up in the filter. 





Mick.Dk said:


> Newly hatched brine shrimp must be prepared to be ready at first day of free swimming, since fry have then up-used their energy from the egg. Very ofyen the fry will refuse to eat non-moving food (=crushed dry-food) for several weeks, probaply by instinct.


Mick.Dk is right, you need something that moves to elicit the feeding response in cichlid fry. 

I've never kept Angels, but with _Apistogramma_ fry (if you haven't got BBS), you can feed them freeze dried de-capsulated Brine shrimp, together with "Banana Worms" and/or Rotifers (squeezed out of an aquarium sponge).

In a small tank, with shallow water, "Vinegar Eels" are another option.

Vinegar Eels are a really low maintenance culture. 

cheers Darrel


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## agol77 (26 Apr 2017)

I had an interesting experience a few years back with the blue angels. I had a group of six, and like you, got excited when I saw two pair off, chase everything else away and start spawning. Nothing happened from the first batch, so I got rid rid of the others to give them space the next time. When the next time to spawn came, I watched closely and saw that they were actually both females, taking turns to lay their vertical lines of eggs. 

I obviously never did get any fry from them, but they continued to act like a pair and spawned regularly for a few years, before I moved them on to a friend. 

LGBT fish )


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## Madhav (27 Apr 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> I breed angels - but agree you will not make money out of it  - it is fun, though, if you want to observe parential behaviour in cichlids.
> Your angels have obviously paired off and are cleaning a space for laying their eggs (probaply done, by now!). For successfull (natural) breeding, you will need a tank for the pair on their own. Usually first-time breeding pair do not succeed, but often they learn after 2, 3 or 4 times. Some never learn, though.
> A huge( = 30-50%) wayerchange ofyen induce breeding behaviour. Temp must ne high (=28-30 celcius) to secure eggs hatch and especially that larvae (=newly hatched) will have high enough metabolism, to get free swimming. From eggs laid to free swimming is usually 5-7 fays, depending a lot of temp.
> Newly hatched brine shrimp must be prepared to be ready at first day of free swimming, since fry have then up-used their energy from the egg. Very ofyen the fry will refuse to eat non-moving food (=crushed dry-food) for several weeks, probaply by instinct. Crushed dry-food must then be "sneaked" inbetween live food gradually. Food needs to be given at least 3 times a day - more often if possible - in high doses. Serious waterchanges are essential daily, to secure fresh water, or fry will be permanently damaged(=croocked fins, non-developed gill-caps to mention a few). Good luck and have patience - it is a lot of fun!!!





dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I have a <"*large* sponge block"> on the intake of the filters, it acts as a browsing surface for any fry , as well as stopping fry (and organic debris) ending up in the filter. Mick.Dk is right, you need something that moves to elicit the feeding response in cichlid fry.
> 
> I've never kept Angels, but with _Apistogramma_ fry (if you haven't got BBS), you can feed them freeze dried de-capsulated Brine shrimp, together with "Banana Worms" and/or Rotifers (squeezed out of an aquarium sponge).
> 
> ...




thanks for the comments, Mick.Dk and Darrel,
I have sponge block at inlet.
I will follow your suggestions, I am not trying to make money, just to have fun.
both still cleaning the pipe, not seen any eggs yet.


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## Madhav (27 Apr 2017)

agol77 said:


> I had an interesting experience a few years back with the blue angels. I had a group of six, and like you, got excited when I saw two pair off, chase everything else away and start spawning. Nothing happened from the first batch, so I got rid rid of the others to give them space the next time. When the next time to spawn came, I watched closely and saw that they were actually both females, taking turns to lay their vertical lines of eggs.
> 
> I obviously never did get any fry from them, but they continued to act like a pair and spawned regularly for a few years, before I moved them on to a friend.
> 
> ...


hahaha i think you had a peculiar experience....


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## Mick.Dk (27 Apr 2017)

Double-female-pair in domestic Ptetophyllum scalare is actually not that rare.........I have had several.
 It is not (always) a matter of no males available, since I have had such pairs pairing out, when I do my usual large "teen-age" groups (25 - 50 individuels) to get the best possible breeding-pairs.
I have never had double-male-pairs, though ............


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## Madhav (28 Apr 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> Double-female-pair in domestic Ptetophyllum scalare is actually not that rare.........I have had several.
> It is not (always) a matter of no males available, since I have had such pairs pairing out, when I do my usual large "teen-age" groups (25 - 50 individuels) to get the best possible breeding-pairs.
> I have never had double-male-pairs, though ............


Then how do these eggs fertilize? Go into someone else's mouth?

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## agol77 (28 Apr 2017)

Madhav said:


> Then how do these eggs fertilize? Go into someone else's mouth?
> 
> Sent from my HUAWEI GRA-UL00 using Tapatalk



They never do get fertilised. They'll eventually turn white with fungus, and the adults will eat them. 


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## Madhav (24 May 2017)

Out of 8 total 3 pairs formed, 
First batch of eggs disappeared by next morning.so I left one pair in the tank and removed all others, this week second batch eggs all turned white, both parents fanning the eggs but too bad...when they all turned white, parents ate all the eggs.

I didnt add any heater or any special breeding arrangements. Temp is around 27-29 °C.

Today I saw them cleaning the pipe again, this time I am prepared to do whatever it takes...

Any suggestions on what to do to let them hatch successfully?



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## Mick.Dk (24 May 2017)

I allways try to do a good (=about 50%) waterchange when I see pair cleaning space for laying. This will reduce amount of fungi and bacteria in water, which can attack the eggs and young larvae, killing them off. So chances of eggs hatching gets better this way. High tempetature (= 29 - 32 C. This is not too high for fish, but can be bad for some plants) will hurry up life-processes, making eggs hatch a little faster and larvae get swimming a little faster. This too, will help survival rate, since free-swimming fry is less prone to die. From laying eggs till free swimming fry should be 5 - 7 days, depending on temperature. You must start an Artemia culture to be hatched on very first day the fry become free swimming - this means 3 - 4 days after eggs are laid (Artemia will hatch in 24 - 36 hours at 18- 20 C.....room tempetature).
- and then there is ofcourse the possibility of adding anti-fungal chemistry (methyl blue if I remember correct). I do not remember dose, but this can be found on the net. 
I do not use this, since I have selectively bred my fish, to not need it, and I now hatch about 90% of laid eggs without any chemistry. Just waterchanges and high temperature.
 Some pairs will not succeed first time, but need to practice a few times, to learn how to raise their fry. And some pairs just never learn, but will eat eggs, larvae or fry every time.


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## Madhav (2 Jun 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> I allways try to do a good (=about 50%) waterchange when I see pair cleaning space for laying. This will reduce amount of fungi and bacteria in water, which can attack the eggs and young larvae, killing them off. So chances of eggs hatching gets better this way. High tempetature (= 29 - 32 C. This is not too high for fish, but can be bad for some plants) will hurry up life-processes, making eggs hatch a little faster and larvae get swimming a little faster. This too, will help survival rate, since free-swimming fry is less prone to die. From laying eggs till free swimming fry should be 5 - 7 days, depending on temperature. You must start an Artemia culture to be hatched on very first day the fry become free swimming - this means 3 - 4 days after eggs are laid (Artemia will hatch in 24 - 36 hours at 18- 20 C.....room tempetature).
> - and then there is ofcourse the possibility of adding anti-fungal chemistry (methyl blue if I remember correct). I do not remember dose, but this can be found on the net.
> I do not use this, since I have selectively bred my fish, to not need it, and I now hatch about 90% of laid eggs without any chemistry. Just waterchanges and high temperature.
> Some pairs will not succeed first time, but need to practice a few times, to learn how to raise their fry. And some pairs just never learn, but will eat eggs, larvae or fry every time.


Thanks for the tip Mick.Dk. 
Third batch of eggs laid within two weeks time, is it normal? Read the cycle is 4-6weeks. This time things are a bit better than previous time. Around 10eggs hatched and we can see small little fry. Unfortunately they were all gone overnight along with all the fungus infected eggs.

Saw female carefully picking up good egg among infected eggs and spitting on to the male body several times, I think its trying to stick the egg to his body.

Anyway third time also not successful, is my filter too strong for the fry? Its eheim 2073 fully stuffed with media and filter wool.

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## Mick.Dk (2 Jun 2017)

Happy to hear your breeding pair is improving each time......as long as they get better each time, there is hope they will finally success!
It is not unusual, that a pair that loose their eggs will spawn again within few weeks (sometimes days).Often a male will choose a different female, if unseccessfull several times ( if another female is present, ofcourse).
It is also very common, that even a successfull breeding pair will eat their fry, if the number is very low - and then use the gained energy to begin a new batch.....hopefully getting more offspring, thereby spreading their genes more.
It is unlikely, that your filter is the course of larvae on a leaf disappearing. They are actually attached by a small string of "glue" - re-attaching every time the parents pick them up for cleaning. I am sure parents ate them. When fry become free swimming, though, they are defenitely in danger from a strong filter. A sponge in front of in-let will safeguard the fry. Personally I usually shift to air-stone-flow for the first weeks of free swimming fry. Good waterchanges in short intervals will secure clean water anyway (fry do not care about high  visualibility, though, their natural habitat is tea-coloured water. I have raised fry in serious green-water-algae tanks).


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## Mick.Dk (2 Jun 2017)

Oh an P.S.
- I expect you have a weak light going at night, so parents can actually see their fry and take care of them.....


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## Madhav (20 Jun 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> Happy to hear your breeding pair is improving each time......as long as they get better each time, there is hope they will finally success!
> It is not unusual, that a pair that loose their eggs will spawn again within few weeks (sometimes days).Often a male will choose a different female, if unseccessfull several times ( if another female is present, ofcourse).
> It is also very common, that even a successfull breeding pair will eat their fry, if the number is very low - and then use the gained energy to begin a new batch.....hopefully getting more offspring, thereby spreading their genes more.
> It is unlikely, that your filter is the course of larvae on a leaf disappearing. They are actually attached by a small string of "glue" - re-attaching every time the parents pick them up for cleaning. I am sure parents ate them. When fry become free swimming, though, they are defenitely in danger from a strong filter. A sponge in front of in-let will safeguard the fry. Personally I usually shift to air-stone-flow for the first weeks of free swimming fry. Good waterchanges in short intervals will secure clean water anyway (fry do not care about high  visualibility, though, their natural habitat is tea-coloured water. I have raised fry in serious green-water-algae tanks).


This is exact my case Mick.Dk,
Finally they succeeded after 4-5 failures, 200-300 eggs finally hatched 50-60 only remaining all fungus infected and parents ate them. Your water changes trick helped me much, I almost changed 50% water every couple of days and will continue..

Wow the parents are very committed to raise their fry, today they dont bother to eat when I fed them, the fry is free swimming today. Yesterday when they are still attached, parents ate well. 

I have a fine sponge at inlet and wont allow the fry to be sucked in. I dont mind chnging to a hang on or air driven filter but I dont want to kill my BB established over a year in my Eheim, is it ok just to leave the Eheim as it is or suggest to reduce the flow to half? Its a pro3 350(2073).


Poor parents are spending great deal of energy to constantly picking the fry and return to a safe zone. Great parenting...





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## Mick.Dk (24 Jun 2017)

Good to see success, finally.
Remember to feed "the kids" very well with the Artemia.........preferably 3 times spread over the time, ligjts are fully on.
It is really important, fry is eating all they possibly can, to develop their full potential. If they for some reason get a stop in growth at this stage......they will never fully recover, resulting in weaker and less vital fish.
Also give good space and water-quality at all times, during growing up. "Stacking" fry too close will result in stunted fins, among other things. A good oxygenation of water is important. Too high "stacking" and poor oxygenation will result in gill-plates not developing well, so pink of gills will be visual - a condition that will never correct as fish grow up.
Finally: at some time, fry will likely start to eat away fins of parents.....this is the time for "kids to move from home"...........


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## Madhav (25 Jun 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> Good to see success, finally.
> Remember to feed "the kids" very well with the Artemia.........preferably 3 times spread over the time, ligjts are fully on.
> It is really important, fry is eating all they possibly can, to develop their full potential. If they for some reason get a stop in growth at this stage......they will never fully recover, resulting in weaker and less vital fish.
> Also give good space and water-quality at all times, during growing up. "Stacking" fry too close will result in stunted fins, among other things. A good oxygenation of water is important. Too high "stacking" and poor oxygenation will result in gill-plates not developing well, so pink of gills will be visual - a condition that will never correct as fish grow up.
> Finally: at some time, fry will likely start to eat away fins of parents.....this is the time for "kids to move from home"...........


Thanks for the tips...will be helpful down the road for sure.

Unfortunately I lost all the fry mysteriously over a weeks span. Cant figure out the reason. Suspect two possibilities

-Lack of nutritional food
-too strong filter

Food, due to some health issues in the family and relatives travelling arrangements, I could not prepare the artemia when they needed in the first week. They are fed with hikari first bites instead. I noticed their bellies turned brown after feeding and took that as an indication for the next feeding time 5-6 times in a day. Their bellies turned clear when they consumed all the food.

Filter, I reduced the flow by half by changing the filter from eheim 2073  to eheim professional first version 700lph, 2073 is now acting like a pre filter with the media spread into all the baskets evenly... with two more filter pads water is cleaner now. During the night I turn on a small 1ft light away from the filter inlet so they gather below the light before they sleep. The light covers only half of the tank as its densly planted in the middle. During night I didnt see them in the light, must be sleeping in dark area, obviously closer to filter inlet. By every night, the number reduced by half. I suspected filter in sucking and opened the filter but only found 3 fry, one live two dead.

**How do you all raise fry with canister filter? I have sponge at inlet that is tight and covers all the slots of inlet. I bought an air driven filter but worry about BB and not used it.

**Is artemia a must to raise the babies? I just started my first batch and learning now.. may be by next batch I can provide them live artemia.

Appreciate any help...





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## JMorgan (25 Jun 2017)

I have two breeding pairs of angels - breeding in the sense they lay eggs regularly, but non-breeding in the sense that neither pair seems to have the right genes for proper parenting behaviour for the whole duration. I have a 12 year old daughter who shares the hobby with me, so a year ago, having watched them screw up the process a dozen times or more, we decided to raise a batch of fry artificially just so she could see the fry grow out. I got breeder boxes to hang outside the tank and just cut off the leaf they had laid eggs on. This worked extremely well and I would say about 90% of free swimming fry made it to be taken to our LFS for store credit. This did involve getting hold of another four two foot tanks just to have the water volume for them to grow out in - that was a LOT of work!

Having done it once with both pairs I won't do it again, because I'm uncomfortable with spreading more fish without parenting genes in the hobby. Conversely in the future I would love to get hold of a true breeding pair and consolidate that behaviour because I think it would be as desirable to some hobbyists who like myself think its at least as important as how the fish looks if not more.

That all said, the most critical reason why the breeder boxes work so well is that the fry can easily find their food, in a relatively small space its always pretty close to them. They also benefit from having a relatively huge body of water cycling through the box with a powerful filter without any of the down sides: You can do huge water changes on the main tank without stressing the fry. 

If I were to try it in a larger tank, the intake sponge is a must of course, but I would also pretty much cover the bottom in leaves (almond/oak) and java moss to make as much infusoria available as possible. Also in a larger tank where the fry have to actively hunt for food who have to work to get the food delivered to where the fry are. Directing a turkey baster squirt helps, but also in a dense layer of moss and leaf litter, it can also work to try a daphnia culture - the adults are too large for fry but you can sieve them out to make more daphnia and just put the tiny daphnia in. The huge advantage of this is that they won't die off in a few hours like BBS and may even continue to live for days until the fry or parents find them, meaning your water quality isnt being trashed by BBS die off. 

Conversely I now keep my angels in their community tanks at quite low temps (24-25˚C) to slow down the breeding cycle and the aggression that come with it. This has helped to thicken up and grow the females who would otherwise expend all their energy on egg production. If I see signs that they may make it a few steps further in the parenting process then I'll be delighted but now they're about 3 years old this is pretty unlikely I believe.

Hope that helps


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## Mick.Dk (25 Jun 2017)

The Hikari-food I know of is for Koi-carps and based on wheat-grains=> plants. I would expect the fry of Scalare to need their animal-based food => Artemia.
In principle you can probaply use most crustations of acfeptable size........but Artemia is really by far the easiest to handle. Being salt-water based also eliminates risk of introducing "bad things" like parasites and the like. It does pollute water quite heavily, which must be counter-worked by water-changes. Growing up a batch of fry is - like said - really a lot of work........bit it is also a lot of fun and satisfaction.
- so in essense; yes - angel-fry do need their artemia as a starter-food. The artemia has a salry taste, which can create aversion to less salty food later in life. Therefore it is a good idea to "sneak in" a bit of very finely crushed, standard flakes at every serving of artemia. Fry will then usually get to eat this too.


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## xim (25 Jun 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> Too high "stacking" and poor oxygenation will result in gill-plates not developing well, so pink of gills will be visual - a condition that will never correct as fish grow up.



The "too high stacking", you meant "staggnated" or something about having too much oxygen in the water?


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## JMorgan (25 Jun 2017)

xim said:


> The "too high stacking", you meant "staggnated" or something about having too much oxygen in the water?


I think Mick was talking about there being not ENOUGH oxygen in the water as a consequence of there being too many fry in too small a volume of water. When we did it, through two batches of fry, after they outgrew the breeder boxes and were transferred to grow out tanks, I was massively over-filtering, doing 50% water changes daily and feeding BBS 3 to 4 times a day. There was also a ton of java moss and frogbit in all the tanks - which (with the benefit of hindsight) was probably the most important factor in getting all 200 odd to a decent size without the stunted finnage or other problems I so commonly see in commercially bred angels. I credit the ammonia take up of floating plants with this success

My previous comment, which I now realise was not clearly written, was speculation as to how I might approach trying to raise angel fry WITH their parents, translating my experience with various apistogramma sp. back to p.scalare. i.e. java moss and leaf litter and something for them to feed on throughout the day - rather than the fry binge feeding on BBS. With my current batch of cacatuoides raised in heavily planted tanks I've hardly used BBS, using vinegar eels initially and then Walter, Micro and Banana worms until they were big enough to take various frozen foods as well.


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## Madhav (27 Jun 2017)

JMorgan said:


> I have two breeding pairs of angels - breeding in the sense they lay eggs regularly, but non-breeding in the sense that neither pair seems to have the right genes for proper parenting behaviour for the whole duration. I have a 12 year old daughter who shares the hobby with me, so a year ago, having watched them screw up the process a dozen times or more, we decided to raise a batch of fry artificially just so she could see the fry grow out. *I got breeder boxes to hang outside the tank* and just cut off the leaf they had laid eggs on. This worked extremely well and I would say about 90% of free swimming fry made it to be taken to our LFS for store credit. This did involve getting hold of another four two foot tanks just to have the water volume for them to grow out in - that was a *LOT of work*!
> 
> Having done it once with both pairs I won't do it again, because I'm uncomfortable with spreading more fish without parenting genes in the hobby. Conversely in the future I would love to get hold of a true breeding pair and consolidate that behaviour because I think it would be as desirable to some hobbyists who like myself think its at least as important as how the fish looks if not more.
> 
> ...



Thank you JMorgan,

 Yes, One thing I relate to me from your long reply is, "*LOT of work*"  I understand and prepared for it. 

you hang your breeder boxes inside the tank or outside the tank?

our ambient temp is around 28-29C, may be its the reason for their breeding behaviour.
They already started to clean the pipe again,

Artemia also hatched overnight may be around 12-16 hrs, by next morning I can see 10-20% swimming.
next batch onwards I can feed the fry with Artemia.

Is there a way to breed them successfully in a planted tank with Aquasoil?
I have a spare sponge filter and circulation pumps too


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## Madhav (27 Jun 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> The Hikari-food I know of is for Koi-carps and based on wheat-grains=> plants. I would expect the fry of Scalare to need their animal-based food => Artemia.
> In principle you can probaply use most crustations of acfeptable size........but Artemia is really by far the easiest to handle. Being salt-water based also eliminates risk of introducing "bad things" like parasites and the like. It does pollute water quite heavily, which must be counter-worked by water-changes. Growing up a batch of fry is - like said - really a lot of work........bit it is also a lot of fun and satisfaction.
> - so in essense; yes - angel-fry do need their artemia as a starter-food. The artemia has a salry taste, which can create aversion to less salty food later in life. Therefore it is a good idea to "sneak in" a bit of very finely crushed, standard flakes at every serving of artemia. Fry will then usually get to eat this too.



Now I know how to prepare artemia, 
Planning to turn the filter off during feeding, Lets see how it goes. 
Thanks..


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## JMorgan (27 Jun 2017)

Hi Madhav 

The breeder boxes I used hang outside the tank, this makes observation very easy. As it happened my daughter is very into Warhammer models and I'd bought her a set of modeller's magnifying glasses for her birthday. These are fantastic for observing the fry.

 Though they come setup to be air driven, (i.e. its air that lifts the water into the box and then the water overflows back into the main tank) I found this was very noisy, especially with two of them. I got a cheap micro-pump and used 8mm tubing to pump the water in, which was almost silent. Even such a tiny pump was too powerful so I added a third outlet to reduce flow, directing the water back to the main tank and allow for fine adjustment of the flow through the boxes. I'd also just switch the pump off for 15 minutes when I fed them. 

If the desired outcome is to raise maximum numbers of fry then they are very effective, however I'd prefer to see the parenting behaviour in future as I said before.

Yes your high ambient temperature will definitely cause higher rates of breeding behaviour, you might want to deliberately allow them a cool down period during the winter - mine are quite happy at 23/24 ˚C and after about a year the females are noticeably bigger when I'd previously thought them fully grown because the frequency of egg laying is much less.

Be careful with your artemia - you will get quick hatching at 28/9˚C but I've read the batch can crash if it goes too much over 30˚C. Always have a back up ready.

I breed my apistos in planted tanks with various substrates: one sand, one Eco-complete (rubbish substrate btw) and one soil/walstad/dirted with gravel cap. Angels just need more space I would think: For example with one pair the male is so furiously protective of the eggs that he chases the female away - in a smaller tank I think he'd do her serious harm, but because she has dense plants to hide in out of sight three feet away, she's OK. Again with true parenting behaviour this should not be an issue and I know angel breeders use smaller tanks so as to make the feeding of the fry and the cleaning /water changes easier, but these are mostly bare-bottomed with maybe some java moss thrown in. They will also usually remove the parents after a while since once the pair start another breeding cycle their own fry become just another food source. It's critically important to think ahead and have a ton of hiding space and probably - even with good parents - some grow out tanks. Lastly remember that angels who are well conditioned can produce 300 to 500 eggs - if you successfully raise that kind of number who need to have a plan as to what the hell you're going to do with them!! 

I'm grateful I "only" had 200 to deal with!


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## Madhav (28 Jun 2017)

JMorgan said:


> Hi Madhav
> 
> The breeder boxes I used hang outside the tank, this makes observation very easy. As it happened my daughter is very into Warhammer models and I'd bought her a set of modeller's magnifying glasses for her birthday. These are fantastic for observing the fry.
> 
> ...




JMorgan,
I understand your concern on the high number of fry to take care, but the way its going on with my pair, I am expecting less than 100 fry to take care, and do not know how many will reach adulthood.
I can give those away for free to fellow hobbyists.

the last fry disappeared 4 days ago and last night they already prepared next batch. this time they might be trying the luck in different direction, laid the eggs on opposite side




I will turn off eheim and install a sponge filter,
slowly remove all the soil and plants and make it bare with sponge filter in one to two weeks time and see how it goes
I am ready with all the set up for Artemia...fingures crossed.

thanks,
Madhav


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## Mick.Dk (28 Jun 2017)

xim said:


> The "too high stacking", you meant "staggnated" or something about having too much oxygen in the water?


no - I mean you should not be tempted to put too many fish in too little water, even if you do a lot of water-changes (really should be self-evident). The fry will grow surprisingly fast and therefore need surprisingly lot of space in surprisingly short time. 
When I grow more than a thousaind fry at one time (to get many fish with  recessive, genetic colours for  creating good breading pairs)  it really does take A LOT of water-volume.......


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## Madhav (14 Jul 2017)

@Mick.Dk & JMorgan, thanks for your valuable input...

Finally this round I made some fry survive, out of 200+ fry, now 40+ survived. 
The fry is 10 days old. How long I need to prepare Artemia for the fry?
they are all eating well and we can see their bellies are about to burst after each feeding session. feeding 3 times a day. every now and then i introduce Hikari first bites powder but they seem not interested.
Changing water 50% every day to clear the dead Artemia from the tank and give them optimum conditions to grow well.
currently running with two sponge filters, going to start the canister soon.
I am done with the challenge. No more Fry, No more Aretmia. Though its fun, its too much of work I can handle, Now I know.

May be one last round, I will hatch them artificially and try to raise them in an over hanging breeder box, easier to feed. Just to see the survival rate.


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## Mick.Dk (14 Jul 2017)

Congratulations - success often comes to those persistent and willing to learn.  
I usually feed Artemia for 4 - 6 weeks......sometimes longer. It really make the fry eat all they possibly can, thereby growing all they possibly can. If fry does not start to eat "dead food" voluntarily after about 6 weeks, I slowly decrease amount of Artemia and increase amount of "dead food"............hunger will enevitably convince the kids to eat it.
- and you are right; it is a lot of work, breeding angelfish fry to make good quality adults.....and the real reward is your personal satisfaction (which is not the worst reward, after all !!)


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## Madhav (26 Jul 2017)

Mick.Dk said:


> Finally: at some time, fry will likely start to eat away fins of parents.....this is the time for "kids to move from home"...........



I think now is the time to separate fry and parents..I noticed some fry are too hungry and started nipping parents.
They are close to a month old. I will train them for dead food and give away around 2-3 months old....
Hungry monsters, they are...


Will they start next batch in a weeks time if I removed all the fty?




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## MarkyP (26 Jul 2017)

remove them and feed them brine shrimp nauplii and crushed granules - the chances are the parents will try to spawn quite quickly


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## Madhav (27 Jul 2017)

MarkyP said:


> remove them and feed them brine shrimp nauplii and crushed granules - the chances are the parents will try to spawn quite quickly


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## Madhav (2 Aug 2017)

hmmm... Parents seem to be upset and lost their color for the past 1 week when I removed all the babies
Now they get away with it and coming to me when they see me and faded stripes are back...

feeding the fry 3 times with BBS and now they are an inch size...


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