# Deleted



## oswoldy (2 Aug 2009)

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## glenn (2 Aug 2009)

hi, this is what i use to calculate for any size tank.

*Macro*-  X/50=Y -> WxY=V  

X=your tanks volume
Y= X/50
W=5ml for macro
V= the ammount you add to your tank 3x a week.

trace is exactly the same but 'W' is different.

*Trace*- X/50=Y -> WxY=V  

X=your tanks volume
Y= X/50
W=2.5ml for trace
V= the ammount you add to your tank 3x a week.

if you get a awnser with a decimal palce then you can round it to a easier measurment, after alll it is a estimate.
i hope this is the right working


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## oswoldy (2 Aug 2009)

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## glenn (2 Aug 2009)

i based it on james plated tank EI tutorial 


> Dosing
> 
> Using Solutions
> 
> ...



the measurments that aaronnorth uses when it comes to the chemicals vary slightly to mine also.
aaronnorth-36g KNO3
                 12g KH2PO4
                  25g Trace 
mine- 33g KNO3
         7.2g KH2PO4
         10g Trace
also my measurments are added to 250ml where as aaronnort has added his to 500ml.
all my measuremnts are based on james EI tutorial.


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## oswoldy (2 Aug 2009)

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## glenn (2 Aug 2009)

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm


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## aaronnorth (3 Aug 2009)

I used The guide on here by Clive which is slightly different to James' recipe.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211

i also do a bit of rounding too, like i add 35g KNO3 rather 36g  it is estimative after all so there is no need to be exact.

But you have links to the 2 slightly different ways of calculating EI doses.


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## ceg4048 (3 Aug 2009)

Mike,
       Let's put the shift lever in reverse and back up for a second shall we? After a careful read of your Subject title and of the data in your OP, it appears that this is a non injected tank. This makes all the difference in the world because CO2 grows plants. If this is the case then you absolutely have no need whatsoever to dose at the levels suggested for the previous EI links, which are targeted for high light, CO2 enriched tanks. Tanks such as those require high nutrient levels due to the high growth rate demands. Your tank will have 5X to 10X less growth rate, therefore you should probably throttle back your dosing significantly.

If you will keep a low tech, non-CO2 enriched tank, you only need to add nutrients  four times or even stretch to twice a month. Also, assuming the tank will be heavily planted, there is no need to do any water changes. That's right - no water changes. As long as the lighting is not ridiculous and that you have sufficient plant mass the plants will recycle the organic waste from food and fish waste. As a result you can dose the following:

Instead of trace mix, consider something like Seachems Equilibrium add about 1/4 teaspoon per 20 USG of tank volume once every week or every two weeks.
Add about 1/8th teaspoon of KNO3 per 20G of tank volume once a week or once every two weeks.
Add about 1/16th teaspoon of KH2PO4 per 20G of tank volume once a week or once every two weeks.

Cheers,


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## oswoldy (3 Aug 2009)

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## ceg4048 (3 Aug 2009)

Well, i thought I explained it in my first paragraph. Sorry if this was unclear. The EI dosing schemes described in the links are primarily aimed at CO2 enriched tanks. You stated that your tank was non-CO2 did you not? Well non-CO2 tanks do not need to follow the standard schemes.

This does not mean that a non injected tank cannot get algae, however, as in all cases, in order to perform an analysis it's necessary to understand what type of algae you have and what procedures you were following. If you were not adding any nutrients at all then you can have trouble and the addition of the quantities I gave above may resolve this issue. If you were performing water changes then you can have trouble and so eliminating the water changes can solve this issue. therefore, if you can get a better description of the algae type and of how you are currently running the tank we can zero in on cause and resolution.

Cheers,


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## CeeJay (3 Aug 2009)

Hi Mike
From my limited experience, I can vouch for what Clive (ceg4048) is saying, having seen results with my own eyes in my 2 lo tech tanks.
I'm currently only dosing 50% of the EI values once a week and that's probably too much   . I will probably reduce the amounts when I mix up my next batch. 
Although growth is slow, I think the most astonishing result I've seen is one of my Crypts has now nearly reached the surface of a 14" high tank   and taken over about half the width of the tank. I'm sure it's a triffid   .
One things for sure, I've got healthy plants and I haven't got any algae in my lo techs, not a drop, and that's with no water changes in the last 4 months  . 
The hi tech, well that's a different matter all together.  

Chris


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## oswoldy (4 Aug 2009)

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## CeeJay (5 Aug 2009)

Hi Mike
On my 60 litre tank (approx 15 US gallons) I would only need 3/4 of the amounts stated for maximum growth rates using EI, as the original was worked out for a 20 US gallon tank.
Therefore for maximum growth rates it would be (all rounded up to the nearest 1/4 teaspoon) 
3/4 teaspoons KNO3
1/2 teaspoon KH2PO4
4 teaspoons MgSO4

So for my 60l I add
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/4 teaspoon KH2PO4
2 teaspoons MgSO4

1/2 teaspoon Trace elements.

I know some of these are over the top and I've yet to make adjustments but this is working for me dosing once a week.

Chris


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## ceg4048 (5 Aug 2009)

OK Mike, I just read the thread you referenced. This is definitely a CO2 related algae. That means you need to be careful because this is not related to inadequate nutrient dosing. In a non CO2 enriched tank it will help to delete your water changes as long as you have a goodly amount of plant mass. In a tank such as yours, the limiting factor is the very low levels of CO2 which may be 3 or 4 times lower that what we find in the enriched tanks. This is fine because the the plants use several mechanisms to adapt to the low CO2. They do this by becoming more efficient at collecting CO2 in a CO2 starved environment .

The one rule they follow though is that if the CO2 increases they will stop trying to adjust to a low CO2 environment because they must produce a lot of a very expensive enzyme in order to perform this "Low CO2 adaptation." It takes about 3 weeks of low CO2 to fully adapt. The new water that you are adding once a week is very high in CO2 compared to the level that is in the tank. When you add this water the CO2 level rises instantly and the rule is broken - the CO2 level has not been maintained. The plants immediately start trying to adapt to a high CO2 level because of the water you've just added. Of course, after a day or so the CO2 level drops again and the plants suffer, because they stopped producing the low CO2 enzyme as a result of your water change. AS a result the plants fail to consume CO2 and they waste time and energy starting to adapt to low levels, then starting to adapt to higher levels, then having to re-adjust to low levels. They never optimize their enzyme production and therefore do not feed properly. Their cell perish, rot and then this algae attacks.

It's entirely possible that if you start adding higher nutrient levels then you will merely feed this type of algae and so this could make matters worse. So I'm not saying that the EI dosing will _cause_ algae, only that it will exacerbate the algae you have now because this algae is not related to nutrients. You must fix this particular cause, which is unstable CO2.

Fixing CO2 related algae in a non CO2 tank is particularly vexing because you cannot fix it by adding more CO2. In this case you must fix it by stabilizing the low CO2 levels that the plants are trying to adapt to. This is best done by NOT adding extra CO2. This will be tedious because you may need to perform blackouts. Shutting down one of the tubes will help as well. Stop doing water changes and you will be on your way to fixing this problem.

Hope this makes sense.  

Cheers,


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## oswoldy (5 Aug 2009)

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## oswoldy (5 Aug 2009)

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## ceg4048 (6 Aug 2009)

Hi,
    There is never a point in ripping up. Your problems reside in your mind, not in the tank. When you mind is fixed the plants in the tank will recover and will erase all evidence that they ever had a problem. Ripping up your plants without fixing your mind will simply result in a re-run.

Holes and translucency, or any structural failure of plants is due to a carbon shortage. Again, this corroborates that you have a CO2 issue.

API Leaf Zone has only a bit of Potassium (K) and some Iron (Fe), which is fine but you'll still need to add Phosphorous and Nitrogen.

I believe that chrisr01 gave you some representative dry powder dosing values  which are a little high but still quite fine for your 33USG non-CO2 tank:
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/4 teaspoon KH2PO4
2 teaspoons MgSO4
1/2 teaspoon Trace Mix

These can be added once a week

If you were to use the strict non-CO2 baseline calculations I listed you would simply multiply 1/8th tsp X 33/20 which would yield about 3/16 tsp KNO3 per week. This is just over 1 gram KNO3 per week.

This would also give you around 3/32 tsp KH2PO4 or about 1/2 gram per week.

As you can see these are so small as to be impractical to measure out with a normal spoon, so I suspect Chris simply uses higher teaspoon values to facilitate measurement. He knows that adding more than you need isn't a problem, so this makes life easy.

So you can get the powders and use them as noted above and this will be 100X cheaper than the commercial bottles.

Again it's important to remember that this will not solve your BBA, which is CO2 related. Remove infected leaves as quickly as you can and delete the water changes. Temporarily remove one of your bulbs if you can and these actions will go a long way in reducing the CO2 related algae.

Cheers,


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## CeeJay (6 Aug 2009)

Hi all


			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> As you can see these are so small as to be impractical to measure out with a normal spoon, so I suspect Chris simply uses higher teaspoon values to facilitate measurement.


That's exactly the reason. 
I did use to stress about measurements to the nth degree but have learnt that as long as you are somewhere near the target all is good. I guess that's why they call it Estimative  .





			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> He knows that adding more than you need isn't a problem, so this makes life easy.


I've certainly learnt that around here too.   I now also know that not adding enough causes even bigger problems.  
The condition of my lo tech tanks are also telling me I must be somewhere near right (healthy plants, no algae). Just wish I could say the same for my hi tech,........................but I'm definitely getting there   

Chris


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## oswoldy (7 Aug 2009)

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## CeeJay (7 Aug 2009)

Hi Mike.
All I know is I do not dose any carbon products in my lo techs and it seems to be working for me. If you start introducing carbon of any sort, all of a sudden it's not a lo tech anymore.
Lo tech = Simples innit.  

Chris


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## oswoldy (7 Aug 2009)

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## CeeJay (7 Aug 2009)

Hi Mike

I was apprehensive at first and it took me a while to adjust my head into not carrying out water changes too, but now I'm used to it. You'll just have to sit on your hands at the weekend  
Carbon products are reputed to kill some types of algae by direct application of it using a syringe, but personally I wouldn't use it in a lo tech because the plants will then have to adapt to the higher carbon content while you're dosing then re-adapt if you was to stop dosing. I've learnt that plants thrive in stable conditions.
Clive advocates keeping it simple. So I did, my whole regime for my lo techs are as follows:
Feed the plants on a Saturday. 
Clean filter once a month
How simple is that?  

Chris


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## ulster exile (18 Aug 2009)

If changing water introduces CO2 which we want the plants to adapt away from in a low light/tech, no CO2 set up, how do you deal with evaporation and dropping water levels.  In my little tank (35l) I've a luminaire and a combination of the heat from the light and an open top to the tank means that my water levels drop reasonably fast.  

How do I reduce the impact of topping up on the CO2 levels?


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## CeeJay (18 Aug 2009)

Hi Chrisi.

If you let it stand in a bucket for a few hours most of the CO2 will disappear on it's own. I suppose if your really that bothered you could give it a stir to speed things up.

Chris


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## aaronnorth (18 Aug 2009)

well the amount of water you add back into the aquarium will be little to change the CO2 levels, i wouldnt imagine it to be no more than 5% of the total aquarium volume so the CO2 levels dont change drastically, but you can do as chris says and let the water stand or aerate it if you feel more comfortable.


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## ulster exile (18 Aug 2009)

Thank you Aaron.


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