# GH/KH for dummies



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

Well for this dummy to be exact lol.

I did read the sticky on GH/KH etc, but it looked like it was mostly for plants, but as im looking into breeding shrimp (neocaridina) i wanted to start a thread for me here so maybe someone could explain it to me in layman terms without all the fluff/terminology.

Testing for those specific parameters is something ive not yet done, and know nothing about. I have looked up shrimp keepers various parameters so wanted to know what range i should be looking at, and how to achieve them.

Im guessing that if the results are not at either end of the spectrum its fine, but i want to maximise my chances of success, and get it as close as it needs to be. I have been looking at the various test kits, and do want one of the meters, but want to be sure about what im getting quality wise before i pull the trigger.

I have checked my local waters parameters. My Ph is slightly lower in the tank.




 

Cheers.


----------



## Zeus. (22 Dec 2021)

Only kept RCS and Amanos with are pretty bullet proof, but for some neocaridina the water parameters (GH & KH) need to be within certain ranges to thrive. Rather than working out what needs adding to your tap water it is often easier/cheaper to use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water and add minerals to get the parameters your after. Also a little care needs to be taken when choosing rocks for your tanks as some  will release Calcium and other minerals, so going for inert rocks is the safe/easy way.

A TDS meter is all you should need for testing IMO, which will report the Total Dissolved Solids, I think the cheap TDS meters are good enough.
Once you know what water parameters (GH & KH)  your after you have two choices
1. Buy reminerilsing products over the counter from LFS or online and pay about £10+ per  100gs
2. Make your own reminerilings salts/solutions and Pay a less than £3 per Kilo and it will have less sodium as well as many commercial products use sodium Bicarbonate rather than potassium Bicarbonate as the former is cheaper

If you choose route two post the parameters your after and I will give you the details of what salts to use or download the IFC calculator which will do the same ( although the IFC calculator isn't for newbies/dummies). Plus I have sole access to the new remineralising calculator which is yet to be released.


----------



## dw1305 (22 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


Jaceree said:


> I have checked my local waters parameters.


You would need the calcium (Ca) and "water hardness" values as well, but that looks like you probably have <"reasonably soft water">, judging from the relatively low levels of magnesium (Mg), sodium (Na), chloride (Cl-) and sulphate (SO4--).

Most of Wales has soft water (away from the extreme S., N. coast and Marches).





Jaceree said:


> My Ph is slightly lower in the tank.


Just ignore the pH values, they aren't very useful now because of the sodium hydroxide (NaOH) addition by your water company, this raises pH.

Sodium hydroxide is a <"strong base">, this just means that all the Na+ and OH- ions are in solution, there isn't a reserve (a "buffer") of alkalinity, so that pH isn't stable in the way it would be if the pH was the result of dissolved limestone (CaCO3).

Before NaOH addition, soft water (water without many Ca++ and 2HCO3- ions) was usually acidic, but now <"all tap water"> has a pH above pH7.


Jaceree said:


> Testing for those specific parameters is something ive not yet done, and know nothing about. I have looked up shrimp keepers various parameters so wanted to know what range i should be looking at, and how to achieve them.
> 
> Im guessing that if the results are not at either end of the spectrum its fine, but i want to maximise my chances of success, and get it as close as it needs to be. I have been looking at the various test kits, and do want one of the meters, but want to be sure about what im getting quality wise before i pull the trigger.


I'd recommend a conductivity meter, mainly because you can dip it in and <"get an accurate reading">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

Zeus. said:


> Only kept RCS and Amanos with are pretty bullet proof, but for some neocaridina the water parameters (GH & KH) need to be within certain ranges to thrive. Rather than working out what needs adding to your tap water it is often easier/cheaper to use Reverse Osmosis (RO) water and add minerals to get the parameters your after. Also a little care needs to be taken when choosing rocks for your tanks as some  will release Calcium and other minerals, so going for inert rocks is the safe/easy way.
> 
> A TDS meter is all you should need for testing IMO, which will report the Total Dissolved Solids, I think the cheap TDS meters are good enough.
> Once you know what water parameters (GH & KH)  your after you have two choices
> ...



Im not ready to dip into RO water yet, and would have to buy so not sure thats an easier option at the moment. I was hoping i could adjust with what i have if need by out of the tap.




dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You would need the calcium (Ca) and "water hardness" values as well, but that looks like you probably have <"reasonably soft water">, judging from the relatively low levels of magnesium (Mg), sodium (Na), chloride (Cl-) and sulphate (SO4--).
> 
> Most of Wales has soft water (away from the extreme S., N. coast and Marches).



For some reason that's the one mineral thats not accounted for in the pdf they have. Im down is south wales so yeah the water is soft. The conductivity value the water company has is 111.3684 (average) 120.00 (max value) unit of measurement us/cm


dw1305 said:


> Just ignore the pH values, they aren't very useful now because of the sodium hydroxide (NaOH) addition by your water company, this raises pH.
> 
> Sodium hydroxide is a <"strong base">, this just means that all the Na+ and OH- ions are in solution, there isn't a reserve (a "buffer") of alkalinity, so that pH isn't stable in the way it would be if the pH was the result of dissolved limestone (CaCO3).
> 
> ...



I was watching a beginners guide about the affects of KH on PH so not sure how correct this information is.



Are these pens any good or would i need to buy better quality?


----------



## dw1305 (22 Dec 2021)

Hi all, 


Jaceree said:


> I was hoping i could adjust with what i have if need by out of the tap......but as im looking into breeding shrimp (neocaridina)....Im down is south wales so yeah the water is soft.


I'm pretty sure you can. Adding compounds to water is easy, it is taking them away that is difficult.  

Red Cherry Shrimps (_Neocaridina davidii_) do fine in our local tap water, which is hard and about 17 dGH / 17dKH.  They didn't enjoy life in the rainwater tanks, the <"water was just too soft for them in the winter">. 

I could use our tap water to harden the tank water up, this isn't an option for you, but you could use <"Oyster Shell Chick Grit"> or you could make up a remineralising salt from calcium chloride (CaCl2.6H2O) and potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3).  

If they are small tanks you could buy "Salty Shrimp" or similar product.  You will already be adding magnesium with your fertiliser addition. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm pretty sure you can. Adding compounds to water is easy, it is taking them away that is difficult.
> 
> ...



I have been adding crushed/dust eggshell, so not sure if that can produce the same result.


----------



## Zeus. (22 Dec 2021)

Like @dw1305 said your water is pretty soft so using it out of the tap is a reasonably safe bet and just add some GH and KH

GH,KH and pH is tricky to follow/understand, so I would just add GH and KH and accept the resultant pH and just keep an eye on the TDS with a TDS pen


----------



## aec34 (22 Dec 2021)

Jaceree said:


> not ready to dip into RO water yet, and would have to buy so not sure thats an easier option at the moment.


Is rain water an option? It will depend what your home set up is, but I use rain water remineralised with an off-the-shelf product for my shrimp tank (neos) and it’s dead easy. It’s not as scary as you might think.


----------



## MichaelJ (22 Dec 2021)

Hi @Jaceree  In addition to a good TDS meter, get a test kit for GH/KH. To promote proper exoskeleton development keep the GH in the 6-7 range with a Ca content around 30ppm and an Mg content around 10ppm. Knowing the 1.7 Mg contents of your tap water allows to you get a fairly accurate bearing on your Ca content. The 1.7 Mg will only contribute ~0.4 to your dGH. So if your going down the tap water route you probably only need to add some Epsom Salt (MgSO4) and a perhaps a bit of Calcium sulphate (CaSO4).
Also with whatever else your adding in terms of fertilizer (NPK) for your plants try and keep the TDS in mid to lower end of the 200-250ppm range (which sometimes can be tricky if your targeting EI).  23-24C. Plenty of botanicals (such as Indian Almond leaves - which will also acidify your water a bit), a diet of algae wafters, minerals and protein. Oh, and plenty of hiding places 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

aec34 said:


> Is rain water an option? It will depend what your home set up is, but I use rain water remineralised with an off-the-shelf product for my shrimp tank (neos) and it’s dead easy. It’s not as scary as you might think.



So use rainwater as an RO substitute of sorts then remineralise?


MichaelJ said:


> Hi @Jaceree  In addition to a good TDS meter, get a test kit for GH/KH. To promote proper exoskeleton development keep the GH in the 6-7 range with a Ca content around 30ppm and an Mg content around 10ppm. Knowing the 1.7 Mg contents of your tap water allows to you get a fairly accurate bearing on your Ca content. The 1.7 Mg will only contribute ~0.4 to your dGH. So if your going down the tap water route you probably only need to add some Epsom Salt (MgSO4) and a perhaps a bit of Calcium sulphate (CaSO4).
> Also with whatever else your adding in terms of fertilizer (NPK) for your plants try and keep the TDS in mid to lower end of the 200-250ppm range (which sometimes can be tricky if your targeting EI).  23-24C. Plenty of botanicals (such as Indian Almond leaves - which will also acidify your water a bit), a diet of algae wafters, minerals and protein. Oh, and plenty of hiding places
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael



Ive been adding crushed eggshell to promote molt, not sure if that works for exoskeleton development. The thing is without a more detailed test i dont know if its made a difference although im guessing adding calcium is good practice anyway? I have java fern, and moss that is growing well, and dont use any ferts. I feed them Flake, dandelion, mint, nettle, broccoli, homemade spirulina sticks. I have a few maple leaves spread around.


----------



## MichaelJ (22 Dec 2021)

Jaceree said:


> The thing is without a more detailed test i dont know if its made a difference although im guessing adding calcium is good practice anyway?


Molting / exoskeleton development...  Yes, calcium is essential for that process. A GH test kit help you take most of the guesswork out of it (especially since you know your Mg levels).



Jaceree said:


> I have java fern, and moss that is growing well, and dont use any ferts. I feed them Flake, dandelion, mint, nettle, broccoli, homemade spirulina sticks. I have a few maple leaves spread around.


Sounds good. They actually need a fair amount of protein as well such as this.. if they lack protein the adults may canibalize on the shrimplets 

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## aec34 (22 Dec 2021)

Jaceree said:


> So use rainwater as an RO substitute of sorts then remineralise?


Yep! My rainwater has a TDS of about 4, so you’re basically starting with a blank canvas (+ assorted tiny critters which are essentially harmless). There are various posts on ways of collecting it. I draw from my barrel in 5 litre containers and stick half a scoop of Salty Shrimp in, then use as needed. This makes the sums easy, and for my size of tanks (20 +10) it doesn’t break the bank.


----------



## jaypeecee (22 Dec 2021)

Jaceree said:


> Are these pens any good or would i need to buy better quality?


Hi @Jaceree 

There is no manufacturer's name on the meters that you show in the piccie. Not a good start! I had a look around to see what is currently available. You may find something within your budget here:






						Testing Meters - EC, TDS, ORP, pH Meters and more
					

UK suppliers of water purification products, based in Scotland. Shop online for genuine HM Digital products. Based in Scotland, Perth.




					www.daqua.co.uk
				




I suggest you avoid the TDS-3. I tried one but had to send it back. To be honest, you are really looking at £45+ for one _in which you can place some trust_. If that's within your budget, I'll take another look for you.

JPC


----------



## jaypeecee (22 Dec 2021)

Jaceree said:


> I was watching a beginners guide about the affects of KH on PH so not sure how correct this information is.


Hi again, @Jaceree

I think the Beginners' Guide video is very good and, after just one viewing, it appears to be technically accurate.

JPC


----------



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Molting / exoskeleton development...  Yes, calcium is essential for that process. A GH test kit help you take most of the guesswork out of it (especially since you know your Mg levels).
> 
> 
> Sounds good. They actually need a fair amount of protein as well such as this.. if they lack protein the adults may canibalize on the shrimplets
> ...



Plant based protein not sufficient? I know they will scavenge, and will eat most things. Ill look into a dedicated protein source.




aec34 said:


> Yep! My rainwater has a TDS of about 4, so you’re basically starting with a blank canvas (+ assorted tiny critters which are essentially harmless). There are various posts on ways of collecting it. I draw from my barrel in 5 litre containers and stick half a scoop of Salty Shrimp in, then use as needed. This makes the sums easy, and for my size of tanks (20 +10) it doesn’t break the bank.



Next tank i do ill set it up with rainwater. I do like the idea. 


jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Jaceree
> 
> There is no manufacturer's name on the meters that you show in the piccie. Not a good start! I had a look around to see what is currently available. You may find something within your budget here:
> 
> ...


I just posted that pic to make sure that's the pen design that's used as i know you can get higher end ones with probes and what not. Yeah i don't mind spending a bit more for the right one. I do read the comments on amazon as well to get a bit more of an indication.


----------



## MichaelJ (22 Dec 2021)

Jaceree said:


> Plant based protein not sufficient? I know they will scavenge, and will eat most things. Ill look into a dedicated protein source.


That may be sufficient. However, since you want to breed them and want the best outcome you just want to make sure. The product I linked to is primarily animal based protein_ (Gammarus, Daphnia, decapsulated Artemia cysts, shrimps, green-lipped mussel)_. And the shrimps absolutely love this stuff.


----------



## Kelvin12 (22 Dec 2021)

Cheap TDS are not worth the money if you want accuracy.  They can be so far out its incredible despite their claimed accuracy and supposed testing prior to shipment.   I was recomned this one,  Hanna H-98301 by a well know member here on this forum and its been brilliant.


----------



## jaypeecee (22 Dec 2021)

Kelvin12 said:


> I was recomned this one, Hanna H-98301 by a well know member here on this forum and its been brilliant.


Hi @Kelvin12 

My guess is that it was @dw1305 who recommended the HI-98301. Both Darrel and I are very familiar with Hanna products. But, there is another candidate from Hanna that is worth investigating and it's the Hanna Primo Pocket TDS Tester:






						Home
					






					www.hannainstruments.co.uk
				




I haven't had a chance to fully check its specification yet.  I believe it's cheaper than the HI-98301.

JPC


----------



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

Hanna Instruments HI-991301 Water Resistant pH, Conductivity and TDS Meter, High Range....£639.96.​


----------



## jaypeecee (22 Dec 2021)

Hi @Jaceree,

Is Santa bringing you an HI-991301 then? 

Now, that's an expensive meter!

JPC


----------



## Jaseon (22 Dec 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Jaceree,
> 
> Is Santa bringing you an HI-991301 then?
> 
> ...


Thats one of the more pricey ones i found.


----------



## Kelvin12 (22 Dec 2021)

Recomendation actually came from Michael J.  Best investiment I made to date.


----------



## dw1305 (23 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


Jaceree said:


> I have been adding crushed/dust eggshell, so not sure if that can produce the same result.


Exactly the same, calcium carbonate (CaCO3).


Jaceree said:


> Hanna Instruments HI-991301 Water Resistant pH, Conductivity and TDS Meter, High Range....£639.96.


That is a good meter, but it is a "High range" meter and ideally you want a "Low range" meter.


Jaceree said:


> Thats one of the more pricey ones i found.


All lab. grade equipment is pretty pricey. There will be some cheaper ones that work OK.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Jaseon (23 Dec 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Exactly the same, calcium carbonate (CaCO3).
> 
> ...


My next question would be is it possible to add too much calcium?, and what are the chances of actually raising other parameters just by dosing with it when needed. Would you need to throw a ton of it in there to see a difference?


----------



## dw1305 (23 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


Jaceree said:


> My next question would be is it possible to add too much calcium?


Not really, not for "hard water" plants, fish or shrimps. In <"natural situations"> a lot of water is <"fully saturated with calcium (Ca)"> from the dissolution of limestone (CaCO3). The derivation is a bit strange, but 7.14 mg / L (ppm) of Ca++ ions are "1 dGH".


dw1305 said:


> 1 dH is "One degree German" and defined as 10 milligrams of calcium oxide (CaO) per litre of water. This is equivalent to 17.86 milligrams of calcium carbonate per litre of water, or 17.86 ppm.


It is <"difficult to get more"> than about 125 mg/L (ppm) ~ 17 - 18 dGH calcium (Ca++) in solution, it just to do with the limits of <"calcium carbonate (CaCO3) solubility"> (about 315 mg / L).

As the water warms up that dGH (and dKH) value will fall, because warm water can hold less dissolved gases and it is the level of CO2 that controls the dissolution of CaCO3.

cheers Darrel


----------



## jaypeecee (23 Dec 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> I haven't had a chance to fully check its specification yet. I believe it's cheaper than the HI-98301.


Hi @Jaceree 

The Hanna HI-98301 at £77.16 inc. VAT would be my preferred choice. But, the Hanna Primo Pocket TDS Tester would save you approximately £20 if budget was tight. Both can be calibrated. For me, the decider is the fact that the Primo Pocket TDS Tester is not submersible. However, the HI-98301 has a watertight battery compartment. So, there you have it.

Hope this is useful to you.

JPC


----------



## Jaseon (23 Dec 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Jaceree
> 
> The Hanna HI-98301 at £77.16 inc. VAT would be my preferred choice. But, the Hanna Primo Pocket TDS Tester would save you approximately £20 if budget was tight. Both can be calibrated. For me, the decider is the fact that the Primo Pocket TDS Tester is not submersible. However, the HI-98301 has a watertight battery compartment. So, there you have it.
> 
> ...


Im going to look at them all before deciding. I try not to let the price dictate things usually, and consider how well something works first. I dont mind that the Primo pocket is not submersible.

Cheers.


----------



## MichaelJ (23 Dec 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Jaceree
> 
> The Hanna HI-98301 at £77.16 inc. VAT would be my preferred choice.


That's the one I use and recommend. 👍    If I could only be allowed to use ONE measuring device in my tanks this would be it (I use the build in thermometer for water temperature as well). One _slight_ annoyance with this model is that the LCD is not lit.

Cheers,
Michael


----------



## jaypeecee (23 Dec 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> One _slight_ annoyance with this model is that the LCD is not lit.


Hi @MichaelJ 

I seem to recall that this meter is powered from a single button cell. Had they incorporated an LED for illuminating the LCD display, it would have significantly reduced the battery life.

JPC


----------



## MichaelJ (23 Dec 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> it would have significantly reduced the battery life.


My old eye would have accepted that trade-off...


----------



## Snowstreams (23 Dec 2021)

I inherited one of these from my brother who is too busy for hydroponics anymore. It seems to be a high range tds and ph meter. But it's working well for me at the moment since I just recently started co2 injection. 
It doesn't have any way to connect to a raspberry pi or controller though unless I open it up and maybe take a reading straight from the lcd? 
Anyone here ever tried that?


----------



## Hanuman (28 Dec 2021)

I didn't read all the thread but there is one thing and one thing only that matters when breeding. Control and stability. Even if your tap water is perfect now you never know when and if it will start changing composition and you will at some point start to wonder what is going on and inevitably blame the water. So you would at least need a resin filter (if not RO) to maintain a constant level of hardness. This is paramount. I do not know a single pro breeder that does not control its water parameters in one way or the other. Hoping for tap or rainwater to be the same for eternity is looking for trouble.

Also, a word of warning. NEVER EVER raise or decrease the alkalinity of the water abruptly (specially with strong buffers) or you will find yourself with a graveyard. KH impacts the osmoregulatory functions of shrimps/fish fast due to sudden PH swings when adding the buffer. So KH needs to be adjusted in small increments in a matter of days/weeks.


----------

