# The pursuit of perfect lighting



## Camelia (10 Mar 2016)

Hello,
I own a 300 liters tank (120 cm x 50 cm x50 xm) and a Blau lamp 8 x 54W. The lamp is suspended over the tank and the distance between lamp and water can be very easy adjusted. The lamp have 4 pairs of bulbs that can be switch on and off independently. Fertilization is EI and CO2 at very high level. I intend to introduce a few demanding species of plants, like rotala macranda. Can you suggest me a setup for light in order to have a clean tank with plants in good shape ? I am not intereseted in high growng rate, I prefer the safe way.
Thanks guys.


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## Martin in Holland (11 Mar 2016)

That's a whole lot of light, you'll be growing algae fast. 4 x 54W light is already a lot (maybe even to much), I wouldn't go for that much and try to keep them on for no longer than 7-8 hours per day....if you want to go the safe way, than 2 lights for 7 hours per day should get you there, keep an eye on your CO2 injection (pH vs KH) to not only keep your plants happy, but also your fauna.


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## foxfish (11 Mar 2016)

The best advice I can give would be relating to 30ppm C02 & perfect flow!
Very occasionally you can see members who have large tanks,  high lighting & healthy plants but, they are few and far between... most are struggling with algae.
A tank of that size is at the top of our game and will need careful planing.
As Martin sugesst I would also say starting off with 2 and building up to 4 would be a good place to start.
However if you have all the right equipment and knowalage in place then perhaps you can make use of 6 bulbs if they are suspended up high enough. Good luck with your tank.


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## Camelia (11 Mar 2016)

Thanks for answers. I have two Eheim 2078 full with biological media and also I can keep CO2 at 30 ppm easily. The flow is good. I know 8x54W is a lot of light, but that don't means that I have to use all the bulbs.
What distance should I keep between the lamp and the suface at the water ?
Is better to have a constant intensity or to have a low light with a noon burst ?
I don't want to grow algae, I want to grow plants. One more thing, I have a nice quality luxmeter. Do I need it in order to set up the light ?
Thanks guys.


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## Manuel Arias (11 Mar 2016)

Camelia said:


> One more thing, I have a nice quality luxmeter. Do I need it in order to set up the light ?



Best idea is to use PAR-meter, instead. PAR corresponds to Photosynthetic Available Radiation, which measures the amount of photons in micromols corresponding to the wavelength range between 400 to 700 nm (the visible light). A luxmeter will integrate the total number of photons within its spectral response, which relies in a priori knowledge of the spectral information of the source, i.e. most of luxmeter have different options to track light, depending on the light source you are monitoring, so no very good for aquariums in which the spectral information of a given light can be very specific, and then many errors can come from this kind of measurements. Additionally, the information in lux is very difficult to translate to photon density, as it is integrating all the intensities per squared centimeter for specific wavelengths and for a given angular fraction and normalized to a given power. In plain words: luxmeter gives you information about the intensity of light respect to a source of reference, meanwhile a PAR-meter will give you the counting of photons per unit of surface and time within a given spectral band.

Regarding your other questions, with a PAR-meter, you can track the amount of light at substrate level, which is commonly fixed as adequate when reaches 40 PAR. Some people not growing carpeting plants aim less. This usually can be used to adjust parameters like the height, or dimming the lights with some tricks if is too much, and so on. Without that, the only way I see to control that is by essay/error: Playing with time, intensity and height of the lamp until you get it right. I think most people do this, as most do not have a PAR-meter.

Regarding the way to handle the light within the cycle, I think there is no much difference. A concept that usually is lost in translation is that what matters is the total amount of photosynthetic photons the plant get within a cycle, which can be obtained of various ways:

1. Strong lights, shorter periods of time.
2. Weaker lights, longer periods of time.
3. Distance of the lamp to the surface.
4. Height of the tank.
5. Spectrum of the bulbs.

Making the evolution of the light to evolve as in nature during the day it could seem better, but I really doubt makes any difference. However, doing so, it can become much complicated to tune the light, as you add also another variable to the system, which is a time dependent photon flow.

However, as said, using PAR can be misleading, because it does not matter your PAR if you do not control the time. In other words: you can have a different PAR but get success by just adjusting the times the lights are on. If less than 40, longer hours, if more than 40, less hours. I think PAR 40 is aimed for tanks with lights on 10h per day, and that can be of reference.

Hope this help.

Cheers,

Manuel


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## Camelia (11 Mar 2016)

Hello Manuel,
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I don't have a PAR-meter and I can't get one very easy. Regarding the light, I would prefer to have a low light for a long time, in order to see the tank and strong light for short time. 
Now, 10 hours of low light it would be fine ? How long and how strong should be the intense light ?
The distance between the water and the lamp can be 30 cm. The tank is 50 cm height.


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## alto (11 Mar 2016)

I suggest you read slowly through Mark Evans tank journals (I think most of them are in the Featured Journals section but you can also look them up through his profile page & then, select threads started by ...)

I'll fairly arbitrarily choose this one to start you off as tank is 120cm x 55cm x 55cm ... he includes outstanding photos & tank details, plays with lighting & fertilizers etc & there is loads of discussion worth thinking over.


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## Camelia (12 Mar 2016)

Thanks Alto, great journal.


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## Camelia (20 Mar 2016)

What do you think about 4x54W  at 30 cm above the water level ?


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## Chris Jackson (20 Mar 2016)

I've run a 120 x 60 x 60 for many many years with 4 x 54w and two by 150w Halides at just 13cm above the water. All 4 and the halides lead to huge amounts of maintenance due to the speedy growth which I quickly tired of. I only use the halides for photos now....

Mine is in a pretty dark hall area that gets very little ambient light and running it on 4 x 10 hrs plus the other 2 for 4 hours gave me good results. I'm currently running 2 x 12 hours plus 2 by 3 hr later in the day but these are very old tubes and the tank is almost low tech. I suggest you experiment untill you get gentle pearling from the plants during the high intensity period. As the plants settle in you can add more light if you like, certainly a short spell of high intensity light seems to help make growth more compact and colourful in my experience.


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## Camelia (22 Mar 2016)

I set the lamp at 40 cm above the water for a safe start. I want to use 2 lamps and I would like a burst. Is it a good ideea to have 3 hours of intense light ? What about the total photoperiod ?


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## Berlioz (22 Mar 2016)

A midday burst can be nice. I started off with lower steady light, but eventually added in a midday full sun burst. When it comes to light, I think erring on the side of caution is always useful. If it were me, I'd start off with a photoperiod around 5-6 hours and increase if things go smoothly/don't rapidly spiral out of control.


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## Iain Sutherland (22 Mar 2016)

Hi Camelia, welcome.

starting with 5-6 hrs is plenty to start off, building up to 8 hrs over a few months.

Midday burst can be nice but also challenges you with co2 as you need 30ppm at lights on and also 30ppm with the high light burst but of course your co2 injection rate will be the same yet demand higher.  If you run a high light burst for a few hours do it 4 hrs or so into the light period when the demand for co2 is somewhat lower than at lights on, then after the high light burst co2 would go off and youll start phasing the lights down to lights off.

Have you run high energy tanks before??


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## Camelia (22 Mar 2016)

Thanks guys for the answers. Iain, I use a drop cheker and a pH controller. I want to make sure that I have good level of CO2 when I need. In the same time, I want o avoid the situation when pH is not reflecting the real CO2 level because the acidic substances disolved in the water. I am aiming for 30-35 mg/l of CO2. The injection procces start 2 hours before the lights go on. During the night, aeration with lily pipe is made, in order to improve oxygen level and help biological filtration.
I think I can manage midday burst without decreasing the CO2 level.
I will start with 5 hours using 2 tubes. Should I use the midday burst from the very begining ?


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## Iain Sutherland (22 Mar 2016)

I dont have any experience with ph controllers, i know people like Viktor Lantros have made them work for them but by all accounts even then not as easy as it may sound.  It would be worth looking through a few of his journals to find the one which runs ph controllers as there is a good amount of information.

Generally the first hour or so is where co2 is most critical and as such also where most people start to see the issues occur so mid day burst would  be better placed a few hours in for safty however.... 



Camelia said:


> I am not intereseted in high growng rate, I prefer the safe way.


given this was your first brief id suggest a mid day burst is counter productive, keep it simple, 2 bulbs in a 50cm deep tank will probably give you close to 50 PAR at the substrate which will grow most plants, 4 bulbs will require more work and more religious cleaning/water changing etc with less margin for error.  Any more than that and your up there with the big boys who have a wealth of experience/skill and ability to water change a few times a week.


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## Camelia (24 Mar 2016)

I started today with 2 tubes for 5 hours. Lamp is 40 cm above the water level. I will come back with news. Thanks you so much for your advice.


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## zozo (25 Mar 2016)

Camelia said:


> pH is not reflecting the real CO2 level because the acidic substances disolved in the water.



I did read this statement before and evrytime i stumble over the question "What substances are we talking about here?" They must be rather agressive to radicaly change your ph even with a weekly water change done, which we all kinde do especialy when on co2 injection..

Me to i run co2 on a ph controller and for the fun of it also have a drop checker tho i didn't use it for the last month. I did for almost a year, even double checked the ph regularly it's constantly stable. I just can't see these substances suddenly come from anywhere.. What would be in our tanks able of doing that out of a sudden in such a drastic way it influences co2 levels to a problematic level??


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## Camelia (8 Apr 2016)

Hello,
It's 15 days since I started. The tank is really clean, not algae at all. The plants are generally in good shape, a few are melting. There is not sign of growth. What should be the next step ? Should I increase the light to 6 hours daily or should I decrease the distence between the lamp and the water ?
According to rotalabutterfly light calculator I have 31 PAR at substrate. I'm waiting for your opinion.
Regarding the pH drop, some substrates and fertiliser can decrease it. ADA substrates or easy carbo are just two examples.


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## alto (9 Apr 2016)

Camelia said:


> There is not sign of growth.


 - in 15 days  what plants do you have? what planta are melting?


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## Camelia (9 Apr 2016)

A pogostemon helferi melted completed and a few leafs from the others. I found some holes in a few leafs of alternanthera reineckii mini. Hemianthus callitrichoides is "frozen", not a change since I planted it. I am not impatient, I just want to make things right.
My plants are:
- hemianthus callitrichoides
- alternanthera reineckii mini
- anubias nana
- pogostemon helferi
- staurogyne repens
- ammania bonsai
- hedyotis salzmannii


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## Easternlethal (9 Apr 2016)

P helferis need strong co2 flow. I haven't found them to do well in lily pipe  tanks.


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## Camelia (9 Apr 2016)

The colour of the dropchecker is green lime.


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## Easternlethal (9 Apr 2016)

Camelia said:


> The colour of the dropchecker is green lime.


If you have two dropcheckers and one is next to the helferi and the other is near the surface of the tank and you see a difference in color, that will tell you is there is more co2 in one spot vs the other and that's about the most information you will get out of them. They are inadequate for calculating ppm with any real precision and certainly won't tell you whether a plant is getting enough.


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## alto (9 Apr 2016)

Camelia said:


> A pogostemon helferi melted completed and a few leafs from the others. I found some holes in a few leafs of alternanthera reineckii mini. Hemianthus callitrichoides is "frozen", not a change since I planted it. I am not impatient, I just want to make things right.
> My plants are:
> - hemianthus callitrichoides
> - alternanthera reineckii mini
> ...


Are these potted plants or tissue culture (such as Tropica 1-2-Grow)

If you look at Pedro Rosa's Going Dutch journal, he's done an excellent series of photographs/comments showing the early growth stages of several plants (tank supported by Tropica) from pots & 1-2-Grow cups.
You can use this as a "benchmark" for expected initial growth rates - some plants do take a week or three to establish (you'll often see root growth) before much leaf/stem growth begins.
(also subtract at least 20% expectations if your name is not "Pedro Rosa" )



Camelia said:


> hedyotis salzmannii


I don't know this plant but Flowgrow considers it a "fast" "easy" plant so I'd be surprised if you're seeing no growth on this (note that tissue culture plants often "sit" a bit longer than their potted versions)

I'd add an hour "burst" at midday to test light effect (ie all 4 lamps for an hour) - you should begin to see improved growth in a few days.

Also I'm of the opinion that one can add too much fertilizer using the EI approach (which seems to go with the "excess" theory without listing/mentioning toxicity levels that are associated with some trace & inhibitory levels that are observed with some macros ...) so also consider this aspect - especially if soft water (in harder water there is often significant precipitation of "excess" nutrients)

What's your water change schedule?

Was tank set up with an established filter/media from another tank?
Have you added any algae-eating shrimps? Amano, Cherry, Tiger will all help remove any melting plant material & limit "spread" to adjacent leafs.




Camelia said:


> pogostemon helferi melted completed and a few leafs from the others. I found some holes in a few leafs of alternanthera reineckii mini. Hemianthus callitrichoides is "frozen",


none of these are unprecedented observations ... I've not observed much P helferi melt (water here is very soft pH ~6) but it's often commented upon on forums ...


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## alto (9 Apr 2016)

Camelia said:


> rotalabutterfly light calculator I have 31 PAR at substrate


no idea what this is


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## Camelia (9 Apr 2016)

I would like to thank you Alto for your reply. I grew these plants in a small aquarium. The cycle of nitrogen was done and the filter were transfer from another tank. I suppose it was not a typical start, but also not a balanced tank yet. Anyway a consider it was a good start. WC is 50% Sunday and 10% one time during the week only for a soft cleaning of the substrate. During the night the lily pipe is up for aeration. GH and KH is 2 german degrees, so it's a very soft water. The ph is going for 7 (in the night) to 6.3 (at the start and during the photoperiod). Right now I' using 2x54W at 40 cm above the water level for 5 hours and starting tomorow I will use a 1 hour burst with 4x54W.
I will follow your advice, untill now it worked very well. Thank you again.
Camelia

P.S. There is a light calculator here: http://rotalabutterfly.com/light-calculator.php


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## alto (12 Apr 2016)

Thanks for the link (it wasn't very accurate for my Kessils but it may do better with T5 etc lighting)

As tank is basically cycled, I'd not hesitate to add shrimps as you increase the light intensity (unless you're intending to remain shrimp-free  )

You might consider a midweek water change as well - eg, aim to change 50% every 3-4 days, if you notice any "melt" or algae, do a water change as soon as you can.

If you're only doing 10% during that mid-week change re $ for water, continue as you are, just be careful with your EI dosing ... err on the side of scant while there's little growth (consumption/loss of the added nutrients).

I think that you're saying that these plants were already submerse (as you'd had them in a smaller aquarium growing) so new growth can be less immediate/visible than with previously emerse culture plants.


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## Camelia (13 Apr 2016)

Fe = 0.2 - 0.3 ppm
NO3 = 20 ppm
PO4 = 2 ppm
NH4 < 0.05 ppm
NO2 < 0.01 ppm
KH = 2
GH = 2
pH = 6.3 - 7 (photoperiod-night)
I think the tank is cycled, the shrimps are there from the very begining, aprox 25-20 red cherry shrimps. 10 otocinclus afinis were added 10 days later. The plants that melted were submerse and grown int he same water parameters. Now the melting stopped, but some HC is becoming fragile and pale. But all of this are small problems, generally speaking the tank is going well. There are a lot of new small leaf for the majority of species and the tanks is algae free.


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## Camelia (18 Apr 2016)

If I would like to speed up a little bit, what should be the next step ? To increase to 2 tubes  period ? To increase the 4 tubes period ? Or to short the distance between lamp and water with a few cm ?


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