# TDS guidelines for shrimp



## Abcdefg

Hi,

I am new to the hobby and I am looking to add shrimp to a 50 litre planted tank that's 7 weeks old. 

I switched to RO water about a week ago, in order to stop using London tap, in the hope of being able to get some nice shrimp down the line (orange eye blue tigers hopefully)

I won't be getting anything expensive straight away, but perhaps around mid February, when the tank will be 4 months old, and will hopefully be stable. 

I am however planning / hoping to add amanos next week mid-week and then some small fish, celestial danios or similar, next weekend. 

I want to get the water in the right place in terms of TDs and chemistry this weekend, and I  to next week (before adding livestock) and was wondering if I could get some advice? 

The chap in the LFS suggested:

GH = between 5 and 8
KH = 5
PH = 6.5 to 7.0

As something to aim for when remineralising.

Can I ask: 

- are recommended TDS ranges that are quoted for particular types of shrimp important in and of themselves? 

I.e. is a quoted TDS range just being used as a proxy for suggesting water purity? 

- can TDS ranges be exceeded if using pure demineralised RO water? E.g if there aren't any tap water nasties and unknowns, will a shrimp with a suggested TDS of 150 - 200 be happy in pure RO (0 TDs) demineralised to 250 to 350 TDS using shrimp products and EI fert dosing?

Or are shrimp very sensitive to TDS levels irrespective of what the dissolved solids are? 


- are there any processes to work out what the hard scape and plants in my tank are naturally buffering towards? So I'm not fighting against them? Or is that not worth looking in to with weekly 50% water changes? 

Many thanks,

Tom


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## DavidW

I keep CRBs in normal tap water and use Tropica ferts. The TDS in my tank was around 400 and the shrimp were fine but not hugely active. I've recent decided to get some Taiwanese bee shrimp so am switching to RO water slowly. Now the water in my tank is 270 tds with ferts added and I've noticed my CRBs aren't hiding as much and are generally looking happier. My aim is to get the TDS down to 180 with ferts. I add the Tropica ferts once a week and they increase my TDS by 20, I also do 50% water changes each week.

I've only been keeping CRBs (not PRL ones) for a few months now but from my experience the ones I have can cope with higher TDS but they are much happier with TDS below 200. From what I've read Tigers and Taiwanese Bees are less tolerant to high TDS so I think you should aim for a TDS between 150-200.

There are other members with much more experience than me keeping shrimp. I'm just passing on what I've experienced in the short time I've been keeping shrimp.


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## Abcdefg

DavidW said:


> I keep CRBs in normal tap water and use Tropica ferts. The TDS in my tank was around 400 and the shrimp were fine but not hugely active. I've recent decided to get some Taiwanese bee shrimp so am switching to RO water slowly. Now the water in my tank is 270 tds with ferts added and I've noticed my CRBs aren't hiding as much and are generally looking happier. My aim is to get the TDS down to 180 with ferts. I add the Tropica ferts once a week and they increase my TDS by 20, I also do 50% water changes each week.
> 
> I've only been keeping CRBs (not PRL ones) for a few months now but from my experience the ones I have can cope with higher TDS but they are much happier with TDS below 200. From what I've read Tigers and Taiwanese Bees are less tolerant to high TDS so I think you should aim for a TDS between 150-200.
> 
> There are other members with much more experience than me keeping shrimp. I'm just passing on what I've experienced in the short time I've been keeping shrimp.




Hi David, Thanks!

Can I ask if you are going to head owards pure RO water? or whether you will cut it with tap water?

If you are going to pure RO, what do you plan on re mineralising it with? for the first big pure RO water change (90 to 95%) I used a shrimp remineraliser, but I have been dosing EI as well, and  I'm thinking it might put the TDS up too dramatically, so maybe I should dose less or switch to a different fertilising technique... although I dont want the plants to suffer.

Thanks,

Tom


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## DavidW

Hi im using pure ro which I really mineralise with shrimp minerals. I've read about an ei method that doesn't increase tds much but can't recall what is called. I use tropical all In one ferts once a week and easy carbo every day and my plants grow well. Here's my tank.


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## Planted Bows

Just to give you an idea, I have CRS in tap water with no problem. My tds is around 300 atm but increases daily due to mineral rock within my landscape rock. I'll be totally honest with you, shrimp can live in any sort of water providing you acclimate them correctly, the main thing shrimp need is VERY STABLE water parameters. Honestly don't worry to much about tds, worry more about keeping your water stable.

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## Lindy

Shrimp cannot live in any sort of water. What you will find, if you keep crs/taiwans/tigers in too high a gh, is that your shrimp will suffer moulting problems and at this point die. Tigers are usually happy in the same parameters as crs/taiwans but will be happy in slightly harder conditions with a slightly higher ph too. For taiwans I wouldn't go over 180 gh6 whereas Tigers can go a bit higher. Your kh is ideally low at 0 - 2. 

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## SinkorSwim

I've been talking to a few shrimp breeder/keepers and they are now generally swaying away from the Re-mineralised water method as more and more people begin keeping CRS so shrimp are being introduced.

Personally speaking I am neither here nor there about it but I think the remineralised  RO would give the shrimp the best living conditions and therefor you'll see them at their best. It's all subjective but I would say if it works for you fine! There is the belief that 150 TDS, KH 0-1 and GH4 is the optimum for CRS (IMO) and if anyone were to ask, that's what I would say but really, if your shrimp are behaving naturally, are breeding successfully with a decent baby survival rate and they look good then well done you and good luck.

I would by and large say the most important aspect is stability. If you have a tank that's 300TDS etc keep it that way, and you should be fine. GH is something you should pay attention to as Lindy points out - it's the biggest killer, and if I were to say levels of importance it's right up there with ammonia and over feeding. No point in getting everything right just to see your shrimp die because your making them repeatedly moult.


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## Abcdefg

SinkorSwim said:


> There is the belief that 150 TDS, KH 0-1 and GH4 is the optimum for CRS



Thanks All!,

I might try starting to target these as something to aim for and see it I can keep the tank around here without too much trouble, if it proves difficult I'll see what the nearest to these that I can get is. As mentioned there's nothing in the tank but plants (and planaria  ) at the moment so I have some time to try to get it right.

Can I ask what the guidelines for water changes are? I understand that trying to match the tanks wate rchemistry as much as possble with incoming water is a must, but how much in terms of percentage to people change? and how often?

could I ask; during setting up the tank I've had the luxury of being about to change water up to 95%, and with EI dosing 50% a week is recommended.  Obviously the first one is out of the question, but 50% probably isn't possible as well I'm imagining?

Thanks


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## Abcdefg

DavidW said:


> Hi im using pure ro which I really mineralise with shrimp minerals. I've read about an ei method that doesn't increase tds much but can't recall what is called. I use tropical all In one ferts once a week and easy carbo every day and my plants grow well. Here's my tank.
> View attachment 95569



I really like your layout, lovely!


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## Abcdefg

SinkorSwim said:


> I've been talking to a few shrimp breeder/keepers and they are now generally swaying away from the Re-mineralised water method as more and more people begin keeping CRS so shrimp are being introduced.



Interesting... is the reason for this that the shrimp will be going to tanks that aren't pure RO? or that they are coming from tanks that aren't pure RO?

Thanks


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## Abcdefg

i don't suppose anyone has any planaria advice?

I'm trying the 'no planaria' product (betel nut based) but it really doesn't seem to be working. It has removed some hydra that I had, but there seem to be a lot of planaria left just worming around as per usual...


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## DavidW

Abcdefg said:


> I really like your layout, lovely!


Thanks.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> i don't suppose anyone has any planaria advice?


 Fenbendazole (Panacur) works, I don't know whether it is <"shrimp safe">.





Abcdefg said:


> but there seem to be a lot of planaria left just worming around as per usual...


How are they moving? if they are looping, rather than gliding, they might be Leeches. I have them in some of the tanks, they aren't blood sucking but they will eat fish eggs etc.

There isn't any easy way of controlling Leeches, they aren't susceptible to most pesticides.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Fenbendazole (Panacur) works, I don't know whether it is <"shrimp safe">.How are they moving? if they are looping, rather than gliding, they might be Leeches. I have them in some of the tanks, they aren't blood sucking but they will eat fish eggs etc.
> 
> There isn't any easy way of controlling Leeches, they aren't susceptible to most pesticides.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel,

They are gliding along smoothly and now and then they contract in to round dots when 'sleeping' or resting in some way presumably.

They look like this:



 

this:





 

and heres a few hanging around in dot mode;


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## Abcdefg




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## Abcdefg

I cant see the 'triangular head and eyes that is often mentioned and seen in photos" so now Im wondering if they are.

I am using a product made from betel nut palm extract on them, but I havent had any noticable results, so I'm dosing it fairly heavily... I started dosing on the assumption that they where planaria, before I got a chance to get the macro lens on them and have a proper look. perhaps they aren't planaria and I am being super mean to them with no reason, which wouldn't be fair...

Thanks


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## dw1305

Hi all, 
The top gliding ones look like Planaria, but the bottom ones look very Leech like. On Planaria the head usually has two obvious eye spots.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg

Thank Darrel,

The dot guys definitely seem to be the same as the gliding sort, if i plovoke them by shining  light right on the glass where they are then them get in the move in the elongated way of the top photos. 

the most distinctive feature they have seems to be three pale yellow dots at the rear of their bodies (the rear as in the other end from their direction of travel)


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## Abcdefg




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## Planted Bows

I've never seen them before, are they normal in a tank?

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## Abcdefg

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> The top gliding ones look like Planaria, but the bottom ones look very Leech like. On Planaria the head usually has two obvious eye spots.
> 
> cheers Darrel



So, does this mean that if I dont see the two eye dots then these probably arent planaria? I'm presuming I would be able to see them in these photos?

Thanks


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## imak

Those are rhabdocoelas, perfectly safe, normaly are a sign of good water quality.  If there's to much, you've must been overfeeding.  I've read also that if there are to much out of the substrate, it can be lacking oxygen in the bottom.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Abcdefg said:


> The dot guys definitely seem to be the same as the gliding sort





imak said:


> Those are rhabdocoelas,


Yes I think you are right, and I think these are much less susceptible to pesticides like Fenbendazole.

There are  two orders of flatworms that live in fresh water, the <"Tricladida"> and <"Rhabdocoela">. I usually get _<"Dugesia_"> (Tricladida) in the tanks, and they are killed by Panacur.





Abcdefg said:


> the most distinctive feature they have seems to be three pale yellow dots at the rear of their bodies


I assume they are ovaries, as they have really reduced internal organs.





Planted Bows said:


> I've never seen them before, are they normal in a tank?


Apparently they are quite common. 

cheers Darrel


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## Planted Bows

Whayyyyyy over my head 

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## Abcdefg

imak said:


> Those are rhabdocoelas.





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Yes I think you are right, and I think these are much less susceptible to pesticides like Fenbendazole.



Thanks  Imak and Darrel,

This is very helpful and would explain why they haven't succumbed to pretty much a triple dose of the 'no planaria' product I was using. 

Can I ask if anyone knows if this will live peacefully alongside shrimp? I had been reading lots of advice about planaria being potentially problematic for shrimp. And so I was keen to get rid of them. 

I'm hoping that the triple dose of the ' no planaria' betel nut palm extract stuff hasn't thrown  the tank out of whack. I've done a 95% water change following the treatment, but it amounts to a lot of chopping and changing in the past 3-4 days and the plants where looking a little sorry for themselves.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> Can I ask if anyone knows if this will live peacefully alongside shrimp?


I don't know, but a quick look <"on shrimp forums"> suggests that they aren't a problem, but I haven't had any experience of them. 

You could try trapping them. A small square of flat rock should encourage them to hide under it during the day, and you can then just take it out and wash them off under the hot tap.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg

dw1305 said:


> A small square of flat rock should encourage them to hide under it during the day, and you can then just take it out and wash them off under the hot tap.



Thanks Darrel, I'll try this and see if i can thin out the numbers, I guess that things will find a balance at some point. and I'll just take them out as best I can in the mean time.

Cheers


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## Abcdefg

having made peace with these being rhabdocoelas and therefore probably harmless... they now seem to be completely gone...

I think I overdosed 'no planaria' to very foolish levels, and I'm now a bit worried that I have saturated everything in the tank with it. I had a spike in N02, which seems to be gone now after a couple of water changes, but the tank is peppered with undissolved bits of 'no planaria'.

Does anyone have any idea of whether this will be ok? I realise its a bit of a vague question, but any experience with overdosing 'no planaria' and whether it's a concern or not would be much appreciated. 

Any tips for removing undissolved specks (of anything) would be much appreciated, gravel vac isn't cutting it, and I'm wondering if there's a better way

Thanks


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> Any tips for removing undissolved specks (of anything) would be much appreciated, gravel vac isn't cutting it, and I'm wondering if there's a better way


You could try running a stronger filter with some floss etc inside. that should trap the finer bits. You may need to stir the tank water up to get the bits into suspension, and watch out for any "by-catch" shrimps. 





Abcdefg said:


> Does anyone have any idea of whether this will be ok? I realise its a bit of a vague question, but any experience with overdosing 'no planaria' and whether it's a concern or not would be much appreciated.


 I haven't used "No Planaria", but this paper suggests that the active agent(s) (the Betel Palm is _Arecha catechu_) are water soluble: <"Phytochemical Screening, and Evaluation of the Toxicity, Antimicrobial and Anthelmintic Properties of the Different Extracts from the Air-dried Seeds of _Areca catechu"> _so presumably the small bits that are left will continue to leach active ingredients until they are all in solution. 

If the shrimps look OK? I wouldn't worry too much about the bits, I might just up the water change volume.

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg

dw1305 said:


> If the shrimps look OK? I wouldn't worry too much about the bits, I might just up the water change volume.




Thanks Darrell.

I didn't have shrimps in the tank whilst dosing, as even though the product is 'shrimp safe' I thought it best to hold off on buying any livestock.

however, last Thursday I put five amanos in, and unfortunately I now have four left. One died 48 hours after adding them to the tank, in the following way, which was a bit sad and worrying

-> lethargic - slow to no movement, turned pink and stationary apart from front appendages, which fanned away franticly, passed away over a 6 hour period on the substrate amongst some plants.

I couldn't think of any way to help this lady or gent, so I left them undisturbed hoping for a recovery, and removed them when they had died.

I'm not sure what to think about this, as the other four seem ok and active, and also, at least one seems to have moulted and survived so far.

I did have some non-zero nitrite readings in the range between <0.3 ppm and 0.3 ppm (according to a tetra liquid test), however I have been dosing prime in response to this, perhaps it's this in combination with stress from transport and the new tank. ( I think possibly this could be down to small snails and flatworms dying following the no planaria overdose, as previously nitrites had been zero for two weeks -ish )

nitrites are back to 0 now and I have done some filter maintenance rinsing media and swapping floss for new stuff.

Acclimation wise for the amanos I did this:
I tested GH, KH, TDS in the tank and the bag, and they where similar. then I drip acclimated them over about an hour until I had doubled the volume of water in the bag. one thing I didn't do which I realise in retrospect I should have done is make a little solution of some bag water and a drop or two of prime, and syringe that in to the bag when I got home with the shrimp.

Does anyone have any advice on whether to be worried about this death, and whether to hold off adding more livestock at the end of the week? (I was planning on getting around 8-10 celesial danios, and possibly some cherry shrimp, and 3 small ottos depending on whether that is or isn't too much stuff in one go)

also, does that acclimation sound ok (for shrimp)?

Darrel, I've read that you yourself (and others) err on the side of getting fish out of the bag as quickly as practical once temperature is equalised? so I will follow this for the fish, but shrimp I was going to take much longer.

Many Thanks,

Tom


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> I've read that you yourself err on the side of getting fish out of the back as quickly as practical once temperature is equalised? so I will follow this for the fish, but shrimp I was going to take much longer.


Certainly for fish I try and get them out of the bag, and into the tank, pretty rapidly. I like them to swim out under their own steam ideally. 

I'm not sure with shrimps, I've only ever owned Cherry shrimps and they are pretty tough.


Abcdefg said:


> One died 48 hours after adding them to the tank, in the following way, which was a bit sad and worrying
> 
> -> lethargic - slow to no movement, turned pink and stationary apart from front appendages, which fanned away franticly, passed away over a 6 hour period on the substrate amongst some plants.
> 
> I couldn't think of any way to help this lady or gent, so I left them undisturbed hoping for a recovery, and removed them when they had died.


Because the other four shrimps seem OK, my suspicion would be that wasn't the effect of the "NoPlanaria", but I don't think there is any way of knowing for sure. 





Abcdefg said:


> and whether to hold of adding more livestock at the end of the week? (I was planning on getting around 8-10 celesial danios, and possibly some cherry shrimp, and 3 small ottos depending on whether that is or isn't too much stuff in one go)


They are all small, so they aren't going to add much bio-load, but I wouldn't add them in one hit, unless your tank has a large plant mass with some floating plants?

cheers Darrel


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## Abcdefg

dw1305 said:


> They are all small, so they aren't going to add much bio-load, but I wouldn't add them in one hit, unless your tank has a large plant mass with some floating plants?



Thanks, I have some floaters and also some ludwigia that reaches the surface, I think the tank has a reasonable plant mass, at least in relation to the tank volume, but it's a 50 litre so neither plant mass or water volume are objectively substantial.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...th-opinions-and-trimming-advice-please.47929/

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/50-litre.47865/

these posts have some older pictures of the tank about 4 weeks ago, so it's this much, plus maybe 20% more growth on the plants seen here, and also the addition of floaters which occupy maybe 20-30% of the water surface, although I was hoping to thin these out at some point.

Thanks


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Abcdefg said:


> plus maybe 20% more growth on the plants seen here, and also the addition of floaters which occupy maybe 20-30% of the water surface, although I was hoping to thin these out at some point.


Yes, that should be fine. 

I probably wouldn't thin the floaters, or prune the plants, for a week or so after you've introduced the fish.

cheers Darrel


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