# Fish die, videos attached HELP please!



## Basviola (1 Dec 2019)

Hi, have lost guppies in this aquarium for a long time. (4-6 months)

*Symptoms*
They "jump" / tilt sideways, stand still in the water surface .... and then for periods they swim around like nothing is wrong.
Some of the fish's poop turn into a long thin thread, as seen in the last video, where the fish died and a few days later.
I have read a lot about sick fish in terms of the symptoms they show. I think these are some kind of parasites, but exactly what kind and how to treat it I dont know.

If it is parasites or other disease, I probably introduced it to the aquarium when I caught daphnia in nature during this summer ... 

* Aquarium [/ b]*
128 liters
HMF in the corner, the volume of the mushroom is approx. 2 liters.
Bottom layer: Spagnum, red clay and rexoline. Topped with gravel.
Water change, approx. 40-50% pr. week
*
 Videos of the fish, or the ones left! [/ b]*
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Md-c6ad-2bsKy6L37SwHI7IigpTUJW8w
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MDpLgtG3emjlqAvfRgV6GhGz3KyzgQR5
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MXdRPMOvFXdP8GVbFcMghOlM-bML2K-N

I hope you know what this is, and can tell me how to treat/stop the problem. Mostly because of the fish needs to have a good life, but also a lot because I have just got a CO2 system (yesterday), and looks forward to buying more plants and using plants from this aquarium to a aquarium I am about to start up. And of course I do not want to transmit the disease / parasites into the new aquarium.
*
Thank you in advance!*


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## Ian L (1 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> Hi, have lost guppies in this aquarium for a long time. (4-6 months)
> 
> *Symptoms*
> They "jump" / tilt sideways, stand still in the water surface .... and then for periods they swim around like nothing is wrong.
> ...


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## Basviola (1 Dec 2019)

thank you for your reply.

Today I found a dead ancistrus... it was a younger one who had grown up to the length of about 3-4 cm.
But the 3 grown up ancistrus does not seem affected.

The SEA was stressing the guppy's and chasing them around... and eating their fry, so I gave it to my LFS.

The rommynose doesn't seem to be infected.

Will medecins to kill skin/gill flukes affect plants in a negative way?

And I should not share any plants from this tank to my new tank, before I have sorted this out.. right?

Any way I will do some research on formalin based medecins.


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## sparkyweasel (1 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> Will medecins to kill skin/gill flukes affect plants in a negative way?


No, but I see you have shrimps, so you need to choose a medicine that is safe for crustaceans.


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## sparkyweasel (1 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> And I should not share any plants from this tank to my new tank, before I have sorted this out.. right?


That is the safest way. 
You could disinfect the plants if you really want to move them before the parasite problem is fixed. You could treat them outside the tank with something like Sterazin. Sterazin is not safe for treating your tank itself, because of the shrimps.


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## Oldguy (1 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> If it is parasites or other disease



Do not know if it is shrimp safe but two hits in one go. It is available on eBay. Good luck with your efforts.


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## Basviola (1 Dec 2019)

Thanks for all the advise folk.

I will look further into it tomorrow!

I came across an advice on treating the tank with eSHa2000? What seem available for me to buy, and the active ingredient might be formalin as well. Again I will look into that tomorrow, and update with the result on treating these guppys.

Thanks again.


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## MJQMJQ (2 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> Thanks for all the advise folk.
> 
> I will look further into it tomorrow!
> 
> ...


Any internal parasite medication should do. Just do it in a separate small tank as a dip because most are not safe for shrimp.It doesnt say what ingredients it uses on its website but multi purpose seems like it would have multiple active ingredients.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/have-you-used-esha-2000.51917/
Says turns water blue so i suspect methylene blue as one of the ingredients at least which is safe for shrimp if dosed carefully but not sure about other ingredients.U could try contacting them to check whether it is safe for shrimp.


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## PARAGUAY (2 Dec 2019)

Guppies from far east fish farms are very weak and tend to be problematic as far as immunity from health issues.This would partially explain why other fish are ok ,once you have ruled out over feeding any diet issues and water quality Best to get from a local guppy society if possible . It's a shame but gone are the days when shops bought from a fish keeper rather than imported


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## MJQMJQ (2 Dec 2019)

PARAGUAY said:


> Guppies from far east fish farms are very weak and tend to be problematic as far as immunity from health issues.This would partially explain why other fish are ok ,once you have ruled out over feeding any diet issues and water quality Best to get from a local guppy society if possible . It's a shame but gone are the days when shops bought from a fish keeper rather than imported


Agreed they are probably stressed out from shipment where they are all cramped together.My two guppies I bought for a nano tank setup died.


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## Ian L (2 Dec 2019)

If it is parasites or other disease, I probably introduced it to the aquarium when I caught daphnia in nature during this summer ... 

I dont think feeding wild sourced Daphnia is the issue - I agree with paraguay below about sourcing healthy fish. I understand that healthy fish can show small numbers of flukes.



PARAGUAY said:


> Guppies from far east fish farms are very weak and tend to be problematic as far as immunity from health issues.This would partially explain why other fish are ok ,once you have ruled out over feeding any diet issues and water quality Best to get from a local guppy society if possible .


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## mort (2 Dec 2019)

Mass produced guppies can suffer from bacterial infections (not seen the videos so if everyone is saying parasites or flukes then I'd only look at bacterial infections so you know what they could do), so much so that when we direct imported them from the far east they always came with some salt in the water. Low level aquarium salt additions can be a good qt protocol for live bearers. They also do best in hard water and can be sickly in soft so if yours isn't you might try buffering (we had a customer who kept losing them to infections and it turn out they were using a water softner, as soon as the switched to local hard water they did much better).


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## MJQMJQ (3 Dec 2019)

mort said:


> Mass produced guppies can suffer from bacterial infections (not seen the videos so if everyone is saying parasites or flukes then I'd only look at bacterial infections so you know what they could do), so much so that when we direct imported them from the far east they always came with some salt in the water. Low level aquarium salt additions can be a good qt protocol for live bearers. They also do best in hard water and can be sickly in soft so if yours isn't you might try buffering (we had a customer who kept losing them to infections and it turn out they were using a water softner, as soon as the switched to local hard water they did much better).



Bacterial infections generally turns the body of guppies white which isnt the case in the videos.Visible darting, something like trying to rub against the rocks are sure signs of parasite.Cant see at least from the video so can guess its internal?


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## mort (3 Dec 2019)

MJQMJQ said:


> Bacterial infections generally turns the body of guppies white which isnt the case in the videos.Visible darting, something like trying to rub against the rocks are sure signs of parasite.Cant see at least from the video so can guess its internal?



Having now seen the videos I completely agree it's not bacterial and likely internal parasites.


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## alto (3 Dec 2019)

I suspect there are multiple issues (secondary (& tertiary) infections are the norm in fish)
- glancing fish suggests body (external) parasites
- stringy feces fish suggests internal parasites (shedding of epithelial lining in attempt to limit parasite infection + intestinal parasites often “break down” the lining)
- surface hovering male guppy with that body shiver is commonly observed in Columnaris (initial site of infection is gill tissue, heart, then systemic spread and eventually surface lesions - depending upon the virulence of the Columnaris strain and also the host fish, this may happen over hours or days to weeks)

While a “dip” or bath medication is effective against external parasites, medicated food is the most efficient/effective treatment against internal parasites (if fish are still eating sufficient amounts) ... the praziquantel (treatment suggested above) may also be effective 

For ease of treatment and monitoring of fish, I’d remove all guppies and any other symptomatic fish to a hospital tank (bare bottom) 

I’d likely begin with an external parasite dip/bath tx - if effective, you should observe some relief within a couple hours - treat for 1-3 days depending upon response (I’d choose formalin or formalin/malachite green, formalin is better tolerated by invertebrates depending upon malachite green formulation ... note recently molted shrimp are susceptible to medication, changing water parameters until new exoskeleton hardens (usually 18-36 h))

Then treat for internal parasites (eg the praziquantel bath or levamisol~food)

Treating for Columnaris in the home aquarium is really about supportive care - optimum water quality, optimize oxygen levels (including reducing water temperature- within reason), low stress environment etc

In the meantime, perform large water changes with attention to gravel siphoning, wiping down glass (remove any biofilm) etc of the main tank
I’d likely treat for external parasites - it’s likely that all fish in aquarium have some degree of these - but it may be that just supportive care may work (monitor fish closely for early symptoms)

Don’t return guppies etc to main tank for at least several weeks (especially if you do not medicate the main tank)

The Manual of Fish Health is an excellent (& economic) reference text


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## Basviola (9 Dec 2019)

Thanks a lot for all the advice...

I started a treatment of eSHa2000 today. I will see now see how they respond... the treatment takes 3 days with the possibility of extending a few days.

I guess I can make a conclusion on that in about 4-5 days and keep this thread updated.


If it does not turn out to help them and free the tank and plants from parasites I will look for medicine against internal parasites! 

Thanks again, this community is pure gold!


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (13 Dec 2019)

How are things looking now @Basviola ?


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## Basviola (13 Dec 2019)

Well I gave them the dobbelt dose of eSHa2000... that is for really sick fish:

1. day. 50 drops / 100 liters
2. day 25 drops
3. day 25 drops

then it is written that you can extend a few more days if needed...

4. day 25 drops
5. day 15 drops.

I am afraid the medicine did not work... at least on day 3 and 4 the guppy's was still 'jumping/tilting against some thing... and mabe even a bit more than before.
The male guppy is gone... can not find him, so think the shrimps took action before i got to him.
I think the bigger of the 3 femalrs look a bit better today, but the two smaller ones is hanging at the surface looking like begging me to end their lives!

It is really sad! And I might be a blahblahblahblah, but my biggest concern is to get the tank clean from this, so I can keep working on the acape... allways a woek in progress, and just got a co2 system that has made my christmas moss and S. repins growing... amasing after just one week or so with co2.

So i will observe them doing the weekend, and then I might look for the medicine against internal parasites.
*Any recommendations on a eSHa product against internal parasites, as this seems available for me to buy?*

Thanks


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## MirandaB (14 Dec 2019)

Just out of interest what is your water hardness?


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## Basviola (17 Dec 2019)

MirandaB said:


> Just out of interest what is your water hardness?


The water is 16-23 °dH... the numbers is from the water supply, and it is probably close to 23.
Why do you ask this?

Anyway, eSHa2000 did not fix the problem, so stupid I did not combine with eSHaExit from the beginning, as problem might have been solved already then.

I will get some eSHaExit  it works on multiple parasites and single-cell flagellates. I cross my fingers!


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## MirandaB (17 Dec 2019)

I asked the hardness as Guppies don't do well in soft water so just wanted to check that wasn't part of the issue


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## alto (17 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> Well I gave them the dobbelt dose of eSHa2000... that is for really sick fish:


For more information regarding eSHa2000 you may find this thread useful

http://www.fishkeepingbanter.com/showthread.php?t=58431

_Altum_ offers further explanation of the individual components 

(the ingredients used to be available on label, though this no longer seems the case; while the original ingredient list mentioned appears to be taken from an online Fish Medications List published some years ago, various posters have reported much more recent emails from eSHa confirming those basic ingredients, so I suspect they remain little changed)

Unfortunately manufacturers of fish medications may claim efficacy of their concoctions based upon known data regarding the individual components, they are not required to perform any actual treatment trials of their formulated product
Wordplay is also perfectly legal, eg, some medications, while having x general result, may also be proven (re fish veterinary studies) to have no effect on aquarium fish in general or when dosed as per the label instructions ... yet the product may remain popular with lfs etc as it has excellent marketing 

I frequently suggest the Manual of Fish Health as a basic text


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## alto (17 Dec 2019)

Basviola said:


> but the two smaller ones is hanging at the surface looking like begging me to end their lives!


At this stage, they are extremely unlikely to recover (re disease progress)

It’s better practice to remove dying fish rather than transmitting potential pathogens to other livestock that may consume the dead fish, some pathogens also have a mechanism for “release” from the dying host


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