# Am I a shrimp killer?



## LancsRick (3 Sep 2012)

I have a horrible feeling that I've made an error that's killed a load of my shrimp .

I did a water change at the weekend, and rather than "shock" them with cold water from the tap (with Prime), I put in a bit of hot to bring the temperature up.

Today I came home to find some of my shrimp dead or dying (the rest seem ok though). They're cherries in a 23l tank.

The only thing I can think of is that my hot water would have been in a big tank...a copper tank...Could this be the culprit?

I've done an immediate 90% water change so hopefully that will sort things out. I feel terrible .


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (3 Sep 2012)

Rather than copper, the killer could be too quick if a change in parameters.

Its likely the prime neutralised all the metals in the water before you put it in the tank. 

How much did you change and how quickly? Shrimp need slow acclimatisation to TDS.


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## LancsRick (3 Sep 2012)

25%


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (3 Sep 2012)

25% of what size tank mate? And Did you pour it straight in? 

If you use a substrate like Akadama, this could lower the TDS of the water by a lot, then you bump it up by a considerable amount.

If your TDS was 100 for example, then you do a 25% WC with 300TDS water. You instantaneously increase the TDS to 175. Which as you can imagine, has a drastic impact on shrimp.

However, if added over the period of an hour say, the effect is minimalistic.


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## LancsRick (3 Sep 2012)

25% of 23l, poured straight in. Substrate is aquatic soil capped with gravel.

Cheers Whitey!


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (3 Sep 2012)

No worries mate.
Of couse, now you say, I knew that.

Okay well that adds another element to it. As well as the other possible cause, you may have dislodged an air pocket or the substrate, causing an ammonia spike. The first possibility is more probable than this one I think. 

When im changing about 20% on my Crystal red tank, I drip in over an hour or 2. Even with the same TDS.

Everything slowly, thats the key.


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## LancsRick (5 Sep 2012)

Ok, just came home to find another couple of dead shrimp in my Fluval Edge, so done every possible chemistry test I can do to try and assist in this, if anyone can shed any light on these then I'd be grateful!

I've included my two other mature tanks for reference. One is a 190l Trigon which has been running for months, is heavily planted, and community population. The second is a 14l P@H cube, with just cat litter as a substrate and no plants, simply as the remnants of the old shrimp tank I ripped down to set up the Edge - again, established for months.

The tank in question has been established for about 6 weeks, and has had zero nitrite for 4 weeks.

*Trigon* - Otocinclus, Cardinal Tetras, Honey Gourami, Amano Shrimp, Botia Striata, White Tailed Mountain Minnows. All healthy.
*pH* 7.5
*GH and KH* <1
*TDS* 460
*Nitrite* 0
*Nitrate* <5
*Ammonia* 0

*Cube* - Cherry Red shrimp - all healthy
*pH *7.0
*GH and KH* <1
*TDS *310
*Nitrite *<0.1
*Nitrate* <5
*Ammonia *0

*Edge* - Cherry Red Shrimp (some healthy, some dying), Red (and spotted?) ramshorns - all ok and breeding fast
*pH* 7.5
*GH and KH* <1
*TDS* 211
*Nitrite* <0.1
*Nitrate* <5
*Ammonia *0

All tanks are being dosed with James' Planted Tank fert recipe number 3, at the recommend 5ml/50l dosage.

Any help appreciated!!!


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## nry (5 Sep 2012)

Ignoring the accuracy of test kits aside, seeing any nitrite is probably bad...which kit are you using?


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## LancsRick (5 Sep 2012)

It's a Nutrafin one.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (5 Sep 2012)

GH and KH should be at least 4- 6 mate. I don't know if by <1 you mean you didn't measure it.

A low GH reading will mean the shrimps cant molt. Which will be killing them if thats the case


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## LancsRick (5 Sep 2012)

Nope, I did measure, it's below what I can measure. All the other tanks are fine, so is this still the likely cause?should I be buffering all my tanks then?


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## LancsRick (5 Sep 2012)

Also, why have they been fine for so long?i've seen them moult at times too. I'm not arguing, and will definitely buffer the tanks up, I'm just confused as to why this has suddenly kicked in now, and why only in the one tank?


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## AAB (5 Sep 2012)

Just throwing another possibility in the mix - could it not be due to some kind of bacterial infection in the tank? I have heard that shrimps are prone to it lot more.


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## viktorlantos (5 Sep 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> GH and KH should be at least 4- 6 mate. I don't know if by <1 you mean you didn't measure it.
> 
> A low GH reading will mean the shrimps cant molt. Which will be killing them if thats the case



Thats my bet too.


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## LancsRick (6 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the all the replies. How the heck do I get my GH and KH up then? There seem to be a bewildering array of buffers on the market!

Also, any "household" recommendations that aren't Seachem would be great, so I can act immediately on the tanks.

Cheers!


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## hotweldfire (6 Sep 2012)

I'm at a loss as to the cause to be honest. I don't think it is a rapid water change leading to a TDS swing. I do a 1/3 change on P@H 27l every week and never have any issues with the sakura in there. Mind I am using RO cut with tap so it might not be far off what the TDS in the tank is. But I'm assuming from your KH and GH readings (assuming they are accurate which they might not be 'cos test kits are crap) that you live in a soft water area? So your tap might not be that different to your tank water? Have you tested the tap water? At least for TDS?

I have found that bacterial infections are usually the biggest killer of shrimp but IME they tend to kill slowly. I.e. you get one or two dead every day. Never seen a bacterial infection do a big number. That is usually driven by some nasty chemical (or poison) getting in the tank.

I agree your GH is too low but is unlikely to be the proximal cause of a sudden die off. Still, I would try to get the GH up (I personally like to keep the KH at 2 as well rather than 0). Obvious remedy is using harder tap water but that doesn't look like a solution for you. I would avoid using bog standard RO conditioning products as I think they're rather high in sodium. There are a number of available hardening products specifically marketed for shrimp but I don't think there is any magic in them. However, they are likely to be free of sodium. I believe both beeshrimp.co.uk and freshwatershrimp.co.uk sell them.


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## LancsRick (6 Sep 2012)

Cheers. I'm in a soft water area, tap water doesn't register on hardness teat kits at all either. I'll give the tank a dose of Melafix and see if that helps. Going to read up on the searches vffer products at lunch and get an urgent order in!


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
I don't think it is the water change, but I do think it is a water quality issue, because of the nitrite reading. I'd add some more plants straight away, and do small  regular water changes with RO or rain-water etc.


> Also, any "household" recommendations that aren't Seachem would be great, so I can act immediately on the tanks.


You can raise dGH/dKH  with Epsom Salts (magnesium sulphate heptahydrate - MgSO4.7H2O), calcium chloride (CaCl2) and potassium bi-carbonate (KHCO3). All of these should be obtainable fairly easily via Ebay etc. (calcium chloride and potassium bi-carbonate are sold by Home brew shops and chemists sell "Epsom Salts"). A small piece of cuttle bone, or some oyster shell grit, (both from poultry sundries suppliers) would also work.


> I would avoid using bog standard RO conditioning products as I think they're rather high in sodium.


Your TDS is very high for water with no dGH/dKH, which makes me wonder which ions are present, sodium (Na+) could be one that would raise conductivity without raising the dGH.

cheers Darrel


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## LancsRick (6 Sep 2012)

Thanks, I'll drop by the chemist on the way home and get some epsom salts.

I was surprised at my TDS too, but presumed that might be a result of dosing ferts?

How will plants assist with nitrite? I thought they only lowered nitrate, and it was the bacteria which converted nitrite to nitrate? Or is my understanding of water chemistry about to get blown apart?!

Cheers all, really appreciate the help.


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## hotweldfire (6 Sep 2012)

Plants will eat up some of the nitrite as it is a source of ammonia (or is that ammonium???). 

I do wonder at the TDS too as I've got two nanos that have until recently had weekly water changes with just RO and I had TDS over 200. I assumed it was down to my TPN+.


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2012)

Hi all,


> How will plants assist with nitrite? I thought they only lowered nitrate, and it was the bacteria which converted nitrite to nitrate? Or is my understanding of water chemistry about to get blown apart?!


 Plants take up both ammonia and nitrite as well as nitrate. The ammonium ion NH4+ is still fairly toxic, so the plant has to incorporate any NH3 (as its ion) into less toxic compounds fairly rapidly inside the leaf. NO3 is non-toxic so it doesn't place the same imperative on the plant. <http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=...AxkLVHn_7ry9OnyJtPobYMRfk#v=onepage&q&f=false>

Tom Barr talks about this in a discussion at <http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4329-Uptake-of-ammonium-and-biological-filtration>.

As a general rule the combination of plants and microbial filtration is much, much more effective than microbial filtration on its own. It is difficult to quantify the effects of plants alone in the aquarium, because plant leaves and roots provide a huge surface area for bacterial colonisation.

cheers Darrel


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## LancsRick (6 Sep 2012)

Thanks for all the help guys. Doing a slot dose over the course of the evening to raise the tank up to GH and KH 4 with a MgSO4 solution and bicarb of soda. I'll look into getting some Seachem Equilibrium as a longer term fix, although I want to get something with a calcium element really so that my snails have what they need.

Think I may get some proper shrimp food too so that any deficiencies in water parameters aren't as catastrophic next time.

Any ideas why I've got away with this so long, and indeed, why my shrimp in the other tanks are happy as can be and moulting? Seriously confused!

Cheers.


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## LancsRick (6 Sep 2012)

Just found out my GH test kit is in fact completely shot, so I've no idea now where I stand!!!! I'll get a fresh one tomorrow and see what it says. Highly irritated now .

EDIT: So having lost all faith in my test kit, I have returned to what I *originally* went off when setting up my tanks, which was the local water report (latest version). At present they're saying 21.1Ca mg/l and 2.53 mg/l Mg, which by my reckoning puts the dGH at 3.

I'm going to bed, too confused. Need to get a working test kit and go from there.


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