# LED's For 60cm Deep Tank?



## jagillham (10 Feb 2017)

Not quite sure how, looks like I've just killed both my Glo 2x 54w T5 controllers by way of a broken 3 pin plug splitter 

I've not been doing too much with my aquarium in the last year or so, but I'm intending to start injecting CO2 & dosing the EI again.

My question is if LED's offer superior water penetration over T5's... or anything else for that matter? In a vein attempt to get the "biggest" tank in my available space, I brought a 60cm deep tank a couple of years back... which has not done my planted ambitions any favours.

My tank is approx 120cm x 60cm x 50cm - any recommendations would be great.


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## alto (10 Feb 2017)

Kessil A360 is the sort of LED lighting you need to look into - high intensity, high wattage, traceable quality control emitters combined with great reflectors

Look for a company that is producing a freshwater light unit & not a marine unit that can be used for freshwater (use the select-a-spectrum controller & you'll be "throwing away" a considerable portion of the LED's you've just paid top $$$ for)
Lens degree also impacts light penetration & spread, most companies offer a 90* - 120* lens

HOT5 - you need to look for manufacturers that understand alignment of the T5 lamps & reflector material & shape (eg, Giesemann)


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## alto (10 Feb 2017)

As always, look to Tropica's Inspiration page 
IHM MÜLLER 300L tank is 130cm x 55cm x 55cm

Some Juwel tanks run 55 - 65cm height


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## ian_m (10 Feb 2017)

What about 4 off T5 tubes, with reflectors. These cause serious plant growth (and pearling) even at 50cm deep.
https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/un...iquatics-aqualumi-universal-4-tube-120cm.html

Considerably cheaper than any 120cm LED solution.

Or this for £224. About 1/2 times a T5 lumen output.
https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/lighting/aquatlantis-led/universal-lighting-freshwater/


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## zozo (10 Feb 2017)

I also wouldn't spent top dollar on any nice design led light fixture.. This industry develops way to fast and you would only be paying for design and easthetic value. From a technical aspect you buy for a this year design, this year latest developed led performance. But this industry runs at such a fast pace, if you buy a this year design next year, you are buying old crap in a nice design. If the manufacturer of the design part changes according the technical development, they would need to come up with a new design every year performing beter and using less energy and discard its predecessors production. Anyway, about every available off the shelf led fixture at the moment is already  running behind and could be much more sufficient with less effort..

But if you are a bit into diy, you can make some very nice strong light sources for a fraction of the cost, saving you money to make a new build each year and still be cheaper and always up to date.. For example keep track off the COB led industry, these are already overtaking the SMD and Cree performance in regard of surface area and light output. 

On a constant dc 12 volt there are already modules can provide 110 lumen per watt.
For example the latest introduced DPD-9450-0414 module



 

DC 12~14 volt 12 watt has 1200 lumen output over a surcafe of less than 94x50 mm.. There are simular COB modules performing much higher but work at a much higher voltage rate with a constant current. But these above are already very good and can simply run on a constant dc voltage powersupply meating the connected wattage. The board has it's own current regulator and can easily be dimmed via pwm. They cost about $3,50 to $5 per module..

If used as a source for up to 12 hours constantly they need a heatsink, i ordered a set to test it above a nano tank.. With heatsink $7. For 1200 lumen output. If put in aray taking beamangle in account with or without reflector, you might need 4, 5 or 6 to span a meter long tank. Lets say 6 that would be 7200 lumen. Make it 2 arays paralel and you have over 14000 lumen, for about $ 60 worth of modules you can replace when ever needed on the fly.

Anyway spending hard cash on design with internal technics developing and outdating at such a fast pase is a waste of money you might regret a year later into the process.


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## jagillham (10 Feb 2017)

Thanks all, some good things to think about there.

Is there any graphs showing a light penetration at depth comparison?

I was running 3x 54W T5's with reflectors before it all broke. Never could get the DHG to take hold!


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## zozo (10 Feb 2017)

jagillham said:


> Is there any graphs showing a light penetration at depth comparison?


Probably, but are not very realistic and just a very rough estimate..  You would need very expensive measuring equipment to find out what realy is going on. And this value never is static, the color of the water can change and negatively influence the light penetration. Most people with very large deep tanks and advanced planting take refuge in metal halide lighting.


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## micheljq (10 Feb 2017)

Hi,

Probably 4 X T5HO (or 6?) would do, but consider the price of yearly replacement of tubes.

For leds, there are a lot of fixtures which look nice, but the power and quality is seldom really there, however there are some which have the quality, but you must pay the price, it's not cheap.  TMC Aquaray, Orphek, for example.

My tank is 24" deep, i run mainly with 2 GroBeams 600, with the help of a Zetlight ZP4000, and Finnex Ray 2 DS.  But i consider the Grobeam better.  However i do not run a high energy tank.  Just what i would call a medium light tank with Excel.

Michel.


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## papa_c (10 Feb 2017)

I have a 60cm tank and use T5HO tubes and the iQuatics  https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/t5-controller/iquatics-aqualumi-t5-controller-4-x-39w-t5.html controller

As for tubes you can use standard off the shelf tubes from any Electrical supplier, I use Bell tubes at £2.45 per tube, as they do not have the word Aquarium or Aquatic in the title they are 1/10 of the cost of what you would pay for at your LFS.

Growth is great and no problems found from using them, many threads on UKAPS on the subject of wavelength and spectrum to support light is simply light to plants. Plus you can mix the tube CRI types to suit your personal viewing task.


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## jagillham (10 Feb 2017)

I already have reflectors, clips and working bulbs... so if everybody is saying LED offers no advantages I may aswell just get one of these I guess?

https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/iquatics-aqualumi-t5-controller-4-x-54w-t5.html


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## papa_c (10 Feb 2017)

From my perspective LEDS are eye candy, they look lovely but T5 work just as well, remember hiding T5's is a little harder and requires some form of hood to hold them.


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## alto (10 Feb 2017)

jagillham said:


> Is there any graphs showing a light penetration at depth comparison?


yes, Sanjay Joshi Ph.D. has done many light studies with HQI, T5, LED etc - you can look at his methodology articles or just the data/result articles - most are published over at Advanced Aquarist
(I've posted links to most previously but doubt there were many readers so don't bother with the links anymore - anyone interested will find'em  )
PAR at 45cm vs 50cm vs 55cm vs 60cm water depth changes significantly (you might even say it's plummeting   )




jagillham said:


> LED offers no advantages


that depends on your perceptions 
more energy efficient, more controllable in terms of spectra & intensity etc, rather different appearance (T5 will never generate that "sunlight on water" effect) 

Both types of lighting will grow plants


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## zozo (10 Feb 2017)

jagillham said:


> so if everybody is saying LED offers no advantages



Well it all depends what your goals and expectations are.. 60cm is fairly deep, are you planning to go with very advanced plants you might not have enough with the regular led fixtures available and even T5 will limit some plant choices.. Are you planning an easy planted tank it can definitely be enough. I know guys enough, having very large planted discus tanks lit with the older generations smd5050 led strips and all are satisfied with the results in plantgrowth. But plant choices will be limited into low light plants only.

So first you have to deside on what plants would you prefer to grow and look from there if led can do.

Led definitively can have advantages, much lower energy bill and a few years life span if build correctly with the proper quality material.


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## jagillham (12 Feb 2017)

How many GroBeams would I need to replicate 3x 54w T5's does anybody know?


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## markk (13 Feb 2017)

jagillham said:


> How many GroBeams would I need to replicate 3x 54w T5's does anybody know?


Not sure what tubes you have, but from the Arcadia website:

T5 Arcadia plant pro 54watts - 2800 lumens

T5 Arcadia freshwater pro 54watts - 4900 lumens

And from the aquaray website:

GroBeam 600 ultima (single strip?) - 1029 lumens

GroBeam 1500 ultima - 2058 lumens

The GroBeams are clearly old technology (the spec sheets highlight low lumens per watt and Cree LEDs that are a couple of 'generations' out of date).

Hope this helps,

Regards, Mark


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## jagillham (13 Feb 2017)

Thank Mark. Do I read you correctly in suggesting that I would need 3-5 Grobeam 600's per 54w T5 I'd be replacing?!


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## xim (13 Feb 2017)

George Farmer used various LED's on this tank and couldn't make Ludwigia arcuata turn red even though PAR values were high.
But the plants started to turn "orange" with T8 bulbs. That was about 6 years ago. Today's LED units are better.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/iwagumi-scree-evolution-the-end.14467/page-6

I think it was because the lighting units he used lacked some spectrum, probably in the blue range.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/color-and-light.40164/#post-436070


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## micheljq (13 Feb 2017)

jagillham said:


> How many GroBeams would I need to replicate 3x 54w T5's does anybody know?


4 Grobeam 600 or 2 Grobeam 1500, for a tank like mine 36" X 18" x 24" high.

As a note, Grobeams are not old technology (as someone pretends), quite the contrary and lumens are in no way the best way to "rate" the efficiency of a led.  Lumens is just a measure of the light viewable to human eyes, it does not means much for plants.

Michel.


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## markk (14 Feb 2017)

micheljq said:


> 4 Grobeam 600 or 2 Grobeam 1500, for a tank like mine 36" X 18" x 24" high.



My main planted tank is 36" * 12" *18" high and has approx 4000 lumens of light (from CREE cool white leds directly comparable to the XB-Ds used in the Grobeams). I don't consider it to be high light.

For your own tank you're proposing roughly the same output, 4* 1029 lumens (and same, wide beam angle) for a tank that has 50% more surface area and 33% more depth.

Extrapolating your suggestion to the OPs tank, lets say 6 Grobeam 600s or 3 Grobeam 1500s for a total of 72watts (600s) or 90watts (1500s - not sure why the 1500 is so much less efficient) and around 6100 lumens of light.
That compares to his existing baseline of 162 watts of T5s which are realistically producing at least 12000 lumens of output.

Now I'm an LED fanboy but even I can't reconcile those numbers - and i think the results will be disappointing by comparison.

Furthermore, I'd suggest the existing T5s have better penetration with decent reflectors than the 120degree spread from the GroBeams - and light penetration is extremely important for deep tanks.

As alto said, Kessil A360s would be my recommendation for LEDs for this tank - not cheap, but much improved efficiency and a reflector designed to punch light to depth.



micheljq said:


> As a note, Grobeams are not old technology (as someone pretends), quite the contrary



The XB-D leds used in the GroBeams were released over 5 years ago. That's a long time in the LED world and better, more efficient models are available. Would you buy an Intel processor that is 5 years old?



micheljq said:


> and lumens are in no way the best way to "rate" the efficiency of a led.  Lumens is just a measure of the light viewable to human eyes, it does not means much for plants.



It's a measure of total visible light weighted towards human perception. It still means a lot to plants - and to us - because we look at them. Despite the weighting, it still provides a useful comparison of the total available output for different light units where other measures are not available. Most LEDs (and to a lesser extent flourescents) generate a similar spectral output - white light - and hence the impact of the weighting is reduced.

Regards, Mark


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## micheljq (14 Feb 2017)

markk said:


> The XB-D leds used in the GroBeams were released over 5 years ago. That's a long time in the LED world and better, more efficient models are available. Would you buy an Intel processor that is 5 years old?
> 
> Regards, Mark



I would not but a 5 year old processor but i would buy a Grobeam anytime.  I have tried other leds (Finnex, Beamswork and others), and sadly i did regret it.

Do not make too much a religion of your lumens.  You can have 2 fixtures rated equal and have quite a different plant's response.  

I agree that for high light over 24" high, T5HO maybe better.

Michel.


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## micheljq (14 Feb 2017)

Another option, Kessil's are nice i am sure they would do the job though.  However they must use an internal fan to cool their leds.

Orphek PR72 planted (similar design), is also powerful and 100% passively cooled (no fans).  And 1 year warranty like Kessil.


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## Daveslaney (15 Feb 2017)

If you have the cash 2 Kessill A360s.
If not i would go with a T5 pendent from Iquatics.


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2017)

Hi all, 





Daveslaney said:


> If you have the cash 2 Kessill A360s.


I'd really like to know just how industrial these <"LED dimmable 60W linear LED HiBay"> look. 




 
So if some-one wants to punt £100?

cheers Darrel


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## jagillham (15 Feb 2017)

Have ordered the 4x T5 last night. Cheers for advice all.

Might start a new journal. See if I can get some good growth


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