# Ray's 90cm Rescape



## Ray (18 Jul 2010)

Some of you may be familiar with my previous scape (here), well its time for a redesign.

So, the Iwagumi idea isn't going so well.  First off I went to the local stream to see what I could find.  Lots of rocks but the problem is that a rock that has been sitting in a stream all day is covered in algae on one site and has calcite deposits on the other.  I'm wondering if they would I could scrub them clean using a wire brush, and maybe some acid, anyone any experience of this?

So I set off to the local fish shops but no luck there.  I mad a real pain of myself laying out all the stock on the floor and dipping in water to see the colour wet, but ultimately I wasn't that happy, the rocks were just too small.  There is one possibility with some brown petrified wood stone, and it would blend with my Malaya Aqua Soil - but I was really planning on brown.

Speaking of brown - does anyone see a problem using brown Aquasoil with a grey rock Iwagumi?

Tank is 90 long, 45 deep, 50 high.  I'm figuring that the largest stone needs to be about 25cm long, does this seem about right?

Suggestions, comments, everyone please!


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## Ray (21 Jul 2010)

Bump!

Any comments on Malaya Aquasoil with grey rocks?

I'm wondering about ordering by post also - roughly how many kg of rock would I need for a 90lx50hx45d tank iwagumi?

Thank you


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## Nelson (21 Jul 2010)

won't all,or most,of the substrate be covered in plants.


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## George Farmer (21 Jul 2010)

Hi Ray and welcome back!  I think it's been a while? 

I don't see an issue with ADA Aqua Soil Malaya and grey rocks.  It's your choice and taste that really matters.

I've used Amazonia with Seiryu Stone aka Mini Landscape Rock, which is a darker brown, but as mentioned it became invisible after a full carpet was grown.

Also consider that Malaya has been known to crumble and cloud the water column if disturbed, so Amazonia may be another viable option.



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> I'm wondering about ordering by post also - roughly how many kg of rock would I need for a 90lx50hx45d tank iwagumi?


I think you'd need around 25Kg, depending on the style of 'scape.  It's best to order more than you need anyway, as this gives you more choice.  Rarely will you find exactly the rocks you need when ordering the exact qty, unless you see them first, of course.

Good luck anyway.  I hope to see a journal!


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## Ray (21 Jul 2010)

Thanks George, yes the forum got as neglected as my tank, but its good to see a lot of the old crew still here!

Since I have a tank full of Malaya I intend to re-use it.  I have a spare 3kg sack in the cellar which I hope is enough to replace the sand I currently use in the foreground.

25kg is doable, shipping to Switzerland is only about 60 quid according to the Aqua Essentials website.  Would I really have enough decent sized pieces for that price?  I'm figuring the largest rocks should be what, 25cm long?


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## George Farmer (22 Jul 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> Would I really have enough decent sized pieces for that price?  I'm figuring the largest rocks should be what, 25cm long?


Ask the supplier mate.  A few of our other sponsors also stock it, so it maybe worth contacting them too.


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## ghostsword (22 Jul 2010)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Ray said:
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Not sure how far are you from the "The Green Machine" shop, but if you are looking a specific rock then that is the place to go. 

I went to the shop some months ago, all the way from London, and it is the only shop I recommend to visit if you are looking for something specific. 

The staff is very friendly too, you walk in and you feel like you have been going to the shop for years. They do not make shops like this anymore.


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## George Farmer (22 Jul 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Not sure how far are you from the "The Green Machine" shop, but if you are looking a specific rock then that is the place to go.


Switzerland may be a bit of a trek!


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## ghostsword (22 Jul 2010)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
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For the TGM it may be worth it..  

At least once.. 

But on Switzerland there are lots of rocks about, right? Seiryu is nothing more than basalt, there has to be some in there.


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## Ray (23 Jul 2010)

ghostsword said:
			
		

> But on Switzerland there are lots of rocks about, right? Seiryu is nothing more than basalt, there has to be some in there.


Sure, for example how about these ones: 






Problem is, they are at 2400m.  I can't think of anywhere I can get them without hiking some distance, and to be honest I doubt I could carry enough for a 90cm Iwagumi scape in one trip.  15kg = just, 25kg = no.

A tempting alternative is to call the Green Machine and order a ready made Iwagumi, but I am still a little apprehensive how heavy it will be and what the shipping will be...


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## Mark Evans (24 Jul 2010)

Hey Ray. here's a few pics to maybe gauge what you could pull off in a 90cm 

This layout is in the same dimension tank. I did it @ my local MA





I got slated by a few saying the stones were not to the rule of thirds etc. nows my chance to show you something   

I did my layout before even finding this following scape from amano.I was amazed at how close they were   lucky me! i've put the 2 images on one page. 





here's another 90cm layout I did.





which looked something like this...





here's another but in a 120cm





hope this helps Ray. most of the stones in the above scapes are all the same ones. just rotated into different scapes.


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## Ray (24 Jul 2010)

Hi Saintly.  That is very inspirational.  I do like the tension in your "two stone gateway" scapes.  I'd also pretty much decided that having plants right up to the front is going to be very annoying.  So I was going to get some grey pebbles and stones and sand for the foreground.  

For those considering Iwagumi style, Amono has a lovely guide here (I'm sure many have seen this link before) on Aquajournal.net which I find very helpful.  Saintly obviously likes the Style II Sanzon type, and I must say I do too.  Of course, Saintly was a big influence on the early members of UKAPS in their formative years and many hours admiring his journals must have shaped our perceptions...

So when I was rejecting stones at my local reseller (I feel bad, I had them all over the floor and was dunking them in his plant tank to see how they looked wet) I was rejecting stuff that would have made an excellent Style I scape, since he had petrified wood.  I was also rejecting stuff that would have made an excellent style IV.

Curiously I can't think of anyone who made a Style III scape - it would be really fun but I expect the long stones are really hard to find.  If someone can point me to a journal where it was done...

So its Style II "Sanzon" look for me


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## Ray (24 Jul 2010)

So, thanks to PlantedBox the following rocks are on their way to me for a very reasonable price:





And here is my first idea what I'm gonna do:





The idea is that outside the rock circle there will be grey gravel and sand, inside will be the Aquasoil from my existing scape.  Plants will be only in the planted area.

Everywhere:
_Eleocharis Parvula_

Behind the rocks, in the planted area, just a small amount of: 
A pretty red stem (_Alternanthera reineckii_?)
A pretty green stem (_Ludwigia_ or _Bacopia_?)
A low round leafed plant (_Hydrocotyle_, or _Marsilea_?)

Will that work?  Thoughts, comments, reactions?

Now, there is a tip of the cap here to George and Mark's current minimalist style because I'm trying to keep it simple, low maintenance and cater to my wife who requested a scape "without any plants".


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## Mark Evans (24 Jul 2010)

Ray, your drawing looks great. Even from this, i can see which way you'd like to go with the scape. 

hydracotle and acicularis would be nice mixed together. Hm or umbrosum would be nice in small amounts for the small green leaved plant. 

personally, i don't think Alternanthera reineckii would work. how about a lilly coming from behind? mine are looking wonderful what with their reds and pinks


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## Ray (24 Jul 2010)

saintly said:
			
		

> Ray, your drawing looks great. Even from this, i can see which way you'd like to go with the scape.



Thank you Saintly, its made things a lot clearer in my head too.



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> hydracotle and acicularis would be nice mixed together. Hm or umbrosum would be nice in small amounts for the small green leaved plant.



Having discovered Tonser's Jurassic Hollow journal I am quite taken with _H. Maritima_, just mix a pot of that in amonst the _E. Pavula_.



			
				saintly said:
			
		

> personally, i don't think Alternanthera reineckii would work. how about a lilly coming from behind? mine are looking wonderful what with their reds and pinks



Interesting, why don't you think it will work?  Is it the flash of red or the use of A. reineckii you don't like?  Other options could be _Didiplis Diandra_ or _Ludwigia  arcuata_?  

I'm quite anti lilly - I think the lilly is nice in theory but a pain in practice - it will be a huge maintenance overhead once it gets going. Of course, the special one PJAN used to win AGA 2005 is wonderful, but I doubt my tank is big enough for this:






See, he has a flash of red at the back and its nice!


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## Mark Evans (24 Jul 2010)

thats a nice tank. 

I'm for the flash of red. but maybe arcuata or something similar. I think the red of A. reineckii is 'dirty' and for me, it's not graceful. quite harsh. subtle pinks would suit just fine. 



			
				Ray said:
			
		

> it will be a huge maintenance overhead once it gets going.



mine's taken off. even in low light it's producing many leaves. I cant wait to see it a few months down the road


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## Ray (25 Jul 2010)

saintly said:
			
		

> I'm for the flash of red. but maybe arcuata or something similar. I think the red of A. reineckii is 'dirty' and for me, it's not graceful. quite harsh. subtle pinks would suit just fine.


Thanks saintly, your experience is invaluable, I'm just going by an old Tropica catalogue I have here   .  So, here is my proposed planting list.  I have to get an order into the LFS by 10am tomorrow for thursday delivery.  He will give me straight from the box so they will still be emersed.

8 pots of _Eleocharis parvula_
2 pots of _Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides (martitima)_
1 pot of _Ludwiga arcuata_
1 pot of _Bacopa caroliniana_
1 pot of _Didiplis diandra_

This doesn't seem like a lot, but I think I'm planting more like this:





Or like this:





Rather than like this:





I'd apreciate absolutely anyones comments on all of the above


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## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2010)

the second or the 3rd for me. The first could rob you of much needed depth. stems, if used in the rear, should planted tight to the back wall ray. 

have you considered a sand foreground? you could create a massive illusion of depth, with sand, stone, mixed with grass, then rear plants?


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## Mark Evans (25 Jul 2010)

Ray, ask a mod to move this to the 'journals' section. you'll get more of a response I reckon...hopefully.


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## Ray (25 Jul 2010)

saintly said:
			
		

> have you considered a sand foreground? you could create a massive illusion of depth, with sand, stone, mixed with grass, then rear plants?



Yes, that's exactly the plan:







			
				saintly said:
			
		

> Ray, ask a mod to move this to the 'journals' section. you'll get more of a response I reckon...hopefully.



Could the first moderator to read this please do the honours?


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## Mark Evans (26 Jul 2010)

Ray, here's A. reckinii in an old scape of mine....


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## Ray (26 Jul 2010)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Ray, here's A. reckinii in an old scape of mine....


Oooo, I like that .  But too late - I ordered already!

6	Eleocharis parvula
2	Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides (martitima)
1	Ludwigia arcuata
1	Bacopa caroliniana
1	Bacopa monnieri
1	Didiplis diandra
1	Marsilea hirsute

Lets hope he can get them (he wasn't so confident when I faxed the order) or I'll be dashing around all the Dennerle outlets here trying to scrape together a few pots of E. Parvula - everything else is optional.

So I have rocks on the way.  I have plants on order.  I have 4kg of bright sand left over from my first scape.  I have a free weekend coming up.  All I need is some stones to blend with the sand and rocks, I'll wait for the rocks to arrive before buying that.


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## Ray (29 Jul 2010)

Rocks have arrived safe and sound.  I went to collect my ordered plants, but unfortunately it was incomplete, so I have:

6	_Eleocharis parvula_
1	_Bacopa caroliniana_
1	_Rotola rotundifolia_
1	_Ludwigia repens 'rubin'_

Then, on the way home I stopped at Qualipet (Swiss equivalent of Pets at Home) who stock Dennerle and as luck would have it I found in the bargin bin, 75% off, perfect condition but lost their pots:

3	_Eleocharis acicularis_
1	_Alternanthera reineckii_ (   Mark!)

Perfect!  Dennerle give a much more generous portion of grass than Tropica so I have easily as much in 3 portions as 6 of the other.  I think I can do something with this, although I'm pretty disappointed not to have the Hydrocotyle.  I might order some from somewhere, I can always pop it in early next week.

I'm not sure if this will be enough, it depends if I do a line of rocks with grass behind, or more of an island effect (my preference).

So Saturday is the big day - watch this space!


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## Mark Evans (29 Jul 2010)

with I-phone in one hand, glass of something in the other, I'll be sure checking out what you design Ray, from the little bar in the Italian sun...   Oh yeah baby.


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## Ray (31 Jul 2010)

5 stone radial Iwagumi, what do people think?  THe binliner is the same size as my tank.  Black foreground would be sand.


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## JamesM (31 Jul 2010)

Glad you got the rocks ok Ray!


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## Ray (31 Jul 2010)

JamesM said:
			
		

> Glad you got the rocks ok Ray!



Oh yes, no problem there, but what about what I'm doing with them?  Best effort so far:


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## Ray (1 Aug 2010)

So here is what I ended up with:





Filling up:





At this point it was 1am and I went to get the filter ready (with hard plumbing and my CO2 reactor you need to prime while the drain feed is underwater but the return isn't).  Then I decided while the tank was dry, I'd replace all the 2 year old tubes underneath.  Job nearly done when while disconnecting the old tubes from the bulkhead the 22mm reducer came out in my hand.  That is this bit here on this old photo:





Bother!  I glued back with PVC glue, left it to cure and went to bed.  

This morning I test the seal and it is leaking.  I pull the pipe out and basically is is no longer quite round in cross section so its hard to be sure the PCV will fuse.  This explains why it came out in my hands, and given how critical this seal is, I really want to put in a new piece.  I'm really messed up, in Switzerland nothing is open on Sundays but it looks unless I'm feeling lucky everything has to wait until monday.


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## Ray (22 Aug 2010)

So, it took me 3 days to get fully up and running - long story but I couldn't get the PVC cement to make a watertight seal in situ, so instead there is a 19mm tube coming off the main shank of the bulkhead taking the reducer out of the picture.  Said tube comes down to 16mm via a 19/16mm reducing tap.

So far so good -  think its a lot easier with mature substrate and filter.  We are running 5 hours light, 72w (but old 1 year old bulbs).  Dosing standard EI.  Phyton Git as per instructions.  CO2 in the lime green but I throttled it back slightly today as the rummies loose colour towards the end of the light cycle & I'm guessing it is the CO2.  The only algae so far is some BSG in the sand, darn it.  I've added my Hydor Koralia nano back in to increase flow and see if that licks it - I was hoping to get away without it but its here to stay, the fish seem happier with - better oxygenation I guess?

Okay, pictures:


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## Gill (22 Aug 2010)

That Looks Amazing, Love the Rock Placement and Planting.


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## Mark Evans (22 Aug 2010)

Very pretty Ray. 

I somehow feel though, the red plant should be more central?   

I do like the central grass idea. A very inviting part of the layout.


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## Ray (22 Aug 2010)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Very pretty Ray.


Thank you Mark, its a big hit with my wife too - much more so than my first scape.


> I somehow feel though, the red plant should be more central?


Actually, the red plant (A. Reiniki) is a bargain bin fragment there for fun, next to it is Ludwigia Repens 'Rubin' - now that should go red, if I get the light right!  The rotola rotundifolia should transition from emersed too, but no sign yet...  Actually I don't want it to - it is beautiful just as it is...

Any advice on when to trim them - I was thinking to take 2/3 off once they hit the surface?


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## Mark Evans (22 Aug 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> Any advice on when to trim them - I was thinking to take 2/3 off once they hit the surface?



The rotala? Take it to any height you like ray. It's a tough cookie. Maybe trim it to the height of the stones, doubling the mass from that point. If you trim higher, you'll end up with the unsightly opart of the stem visible.

A bit like this.





then pick your height, and hack!


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## Mark Evans (22 Aug 2010)

Take a look here to



I've made the clip quicker, i'm not that quick really


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## Ray (22 Aug 2010)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Take a look here to
> 
> http://www.vimeo.com/11403285
> 
> I've made the clip quicker, i'm not that quick really



Thanks, already saw that clip - but didn't know you sped it up    What do you think of the sandy area on the left hand side?  My better half thinks it throws things off balance.


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## Mark Evans (22 Aug 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> What do you think of the sandy area on the left hand side? My better half thinks it throws things off balance.



honestly?...yes, it does throw the eye a little, and the A. Reiniki in it's current position exaggerates it. The later problem can be sorted.

To make sure the balance is maintained to some degree, keep the right side plants real low.

But hey, ray! This is how we learn. No big issues really


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## Krishs Bettas (23 Aug 2010)

The tank looks amazing and the angels suit the tank well and by the way nice rock work.


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## Ray (25 Aug 2010)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Ray said:
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Ha ha - so you were holding something back? Well let's see what happens, easy enough to add a terrace back LHS if necessary.

BGA in the sand is annoying me - flow and dose nitrates, right?


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## Mark Evans (25 Aug 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> Ha ha - so you were holding something back?



sorry mate. yes, a little. When I judged 2 comps recently, the hardest part for me was being honest. it did induce a bit of anxiety when writing truthfully. 

it's a case of being tactful I guess. 

But who's to say, the layout wont be a success as it is.


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## Ray (9 Sep 2010)

Excuse the snaps just done with my phone camera and uploaded with the photobucket app for speed.





Saintly makes it look so easy with his pruning videos.  But don't let that fool you, its not - he's a genius (as well as a rock legend, journeyman leadworker, master photographer, father, husband, etc etc...).  I pruned the stems like a hedge and threw all the nice tops thinking it would grow back, I think this was a mistake because the lower half of the stems, particularly the ludwigia, were in poor shape.  I guess I should have planted the tips and thrown the bottoms?  I am, of course, a complete newbie with stems.





Also I still have BGA all over my sand.  Now, we know BGA is triggered by low nitrates and oxygen so to try and combat it I've even added an internal so we have Eheim 2028 (1050lph), Koralia Nano (900lph) and internal (400lph).  Flow in this tank is now 12x and quite awesome.  I'm also dosing Nitrates at treble dose so we should be running well at over 50ppm.  Phyton Git at 40 drops/water change.   So far, it won't give up - I clean the sand and it grows back. Again. And Again.

Any suggestions?  Would coarser sand help?  I'm in the States next week and I plan to pick up a Vortech MP10 pump (750-6000lph) and some Maracyn - surely these two items will do for it?  I really don't want to hit the stems with a blackout if I can avoid it.


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## Gfish (10 Sep 2010)

Hi Ray

I'm fairly new and know naff all compared to most on here, but I've read your thread and looked at this lovely looking tank of yours. It's very colourful without being garish, and whether this has happened by planning or by accident, all I can say is well done, it's very inviting to look at.
I hear what you're saying about the open sand area. I think one more small piece of stone in the front left below that little black mark in the sand and about 4 times the size, about an egg size would even things out. With grass growing behind and in-between that and the existing end rock. There's perhaps potential for a small low ledge piece being exposed from the sand to the front right too. 
The space to the left of the red plant I can imagine, set slightly further back,  a taller plant with a strong stem and medium sized horizontal leaves. For me this would finish it off well with a sort of tree look about it. 
As I said, I know very little of the names etc but I love thinking about what might work, and the never-ending pursuit of the prefect scape.
I'm learning and feeling inspired lots being here and I hope you don't mind my suggestions.

Thanks

Gavin


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## Lisa_Perry75 (10 Sep 2010)

Hi Ray, Just wondered what are the blue fish? The look like cardinal/neon shape and lovely blue but I can't see any red...


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## Ray (10 Sep 2010)

Hi Lisa, well spotted - they are False Neons - Paracheirodon simulans.  More discrete than true neons or cardinals but sometimes less is more as they say.  I've had them about 18 months and still have the original 19. 

Hello Gavin and thanks for your enthusiastic and inspiring response!  It's very motivating to get such enthusiastic and detailed feedback.  I think, as you say, once everything is running smoothly I need to extend the back out to the left so as to be less asymetrical.  Your comments are filed away for that day.  I'm new to stems also (check the journal in my sig to see what I did first time around) and the possibilities for change and exploration with them are quite fun since they grow fast and can be moved around easily.  The bright red one (Alternanthera reineckii) is just there for fun really.  Once the rotola and ludwigia get fully transitioned from emersed there should be enough colour and it can go.


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## Mark Evans (10 Sep 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> pruned the stems like a hedge and threw all the nice tops thinking it would grow back, I think this was a mistake because the lower half of the stems, particularly the ludwigia, were in poor shape.



This is where trimming heights and more importantly, placement of stems becomes a little more vital. 

The stems should recover if the tank is happy. However, if there's not a stone, branch or even low growing plants to hide the lower, more unsightly part of the stems, you'll always see them.

you can plant the tops and harvest your plants, but i've not done that in 3 years. 

I get the sense that with BGA being present, something is adrift. 

Thanks for the kind words Ray


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## Themuleous (10 Sep 2010)

thata great scape, love the island style.

Sam


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## Ray (10 Sep 2010)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> I get the sense that with BGA being present, something is adrift.


Maybe, but what?  With the leak the plants stood in 3 inches of water for 4 days before we got light & CO2 - was that it?  Or was it not enough flow until I added the Koralia back?   Or is it not enough light behind the rock?  Or maybe because my bulbs are 2 years old and so putting out less light (plan to switch in new ones once fully established and algae free).  Whatever, its true the Rotola Rotundifolia grew vigorously on top but melted at the base. And I did induce BGA at some point (although what caused that might not be still present).

Still things seem to be recovering now...

How do you keep BGA out of your sand Mark?


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## andyh (11 Sep 2010)

Hey ray,
Just read your journal for the first time and I think it looks great! The reds and the greens look fab together. Keep fighting the algae!
Andyh


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## Ray (11 Sep 2010)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> thata great scape, love the island style.
> 
> Sam


Thank you sam


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## Ray (11 Sep 2010)

andyh said:
			
		

> Hey ray,
> Just read your journal for the first time and I think it looks great! The reds and the greens look fab together. Keep fighting the algae!
> Andyh


Thank you Andy


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## Lisa_Perry75 (12 Sep 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> Hi Lisa, well spotted - they are False Neons - Paracheirodon simulans.  More discrete than true neons or cardinals but sometimes less is more as they say.  I've had them about 18 months and still have the original 19.


Thanks for letting me know Ray - they do look nice


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