# Before and after discus photos HELP!



## cheekycharly (1 Nov 2012)

Hi all I bought a nice pair of Blue Turk Discus about 3 months ago and one of them has changed colour dramatically. This pic was taken the day I bought them...






And this is them now...





I have been doing water changes like crazy to see if this help but still no change in it's appearance apart from the stress stripes showing since last nights 50% water change via my Lees gravel vac.

They live in tap water (no RO) at a steady PH of 6.5. They were used to the local water when purchased.

I feed them a mixture of Tetra pro crisps and tetra prima. Also beef heart thawed out and Bloodworm from frozen.

Anyone know what the key is to my Discuses missing happiness. 

Cheers guys.


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## REDSTEVEO (2 Nov 2012)

Hi there,

Well I have had a good look at these photographs. Comparing the first photograph to the second one I can see that the fish are in the same position on each photo. Looking at the fish to the left the stress stripes are evident in both photographs but that is not unusual when you first get the fish.

I need to know more about your tank size, volume of water, are you using pressurised CO2 fertilisation, what other fish have you got in their with them etc before making any firm opinions but here is what I think to start with.

The two main reasons why discus go darker and show their stripes are a)shock or stress, and b) they are showing mating colours or producing skin secretion to feed their young.

Yours don't look big enough to be mating yet and you don't know whether they are a breeding pair yet anyway I presume.

So, that leave us with stress...Let's assume they have got over the initial shock of being moved and transferred to your tank, with a water temperature of close to 29 or 30 degrees right? So if they settled down after being moved, the only thing that can now be causing the problem is either something in your water parameters, which if that was the case both discus would be affected, or feeding. 

You sound like you have been feeding quite a variety of foods which is a good thing, but the fish with the darker colours and stress markings looks to me to be a bit on the thin side. This means it is either not eating properly, or has a digestive tract bacterial infection caused by a blockage, usually caused by a piece of fatty tissue consumed as part of the beefheart, or a digestive parasite both of which means that the fish will not eat properly, or if it does eat nothing is being digested properly, hence the fish is not getting the protein and other nutrition from the food.

I don't want to scare you here but if the situation is not rectified you could end up losing the fish and it is not good to watch it happen over a period of three or four months. But without knowing more it is hard knowing what to suggest. Are any of the fish excreting long white streaky faeces? Is the other one bullying, chasing or harrassing the darker one. Have you got any other big boisterous fish like large clown loaches or plecs.

If there is nothing wrong with your water parameters take it easy on the water changes for while, that is only going to stress them out more. What volume have you been changing, and what temperature are you putting it back in at/ What is the temperature now? If it is 25 or less knock it up to 30 degrees for a few days, this can speed up the metabolism and kick start the digestive system. There are loads of other recommendations like salt baths, malachite green, plus god knows how many other discus disease medications out there. But before you go mad try a process of elimination to narrow down the causes.

I wish you luck and look forward to helping you if I can.

Cheers

Steve


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## cheekycharly (3 Nov 2012)

Hi Steve I have purchased from eBay Kusuri and Fluke Solve from Plymouth Discus to try and see if there is any improvement. What is the usual dosing amount and method given that I am running 260L. Also can the two products be used simultaneously. My last question was does this have an ill effect on my other fish...

2 x Botias
2 x Chocolate Gouramis
2 x Panda Cories
5 x Emporer Tetras (3F 2M)
1 x Congo Tetra
1 x Zebra Danio

Thanks and your advice so far is top notch!

P.S. tank volume is 260L with regulated Co2 on a timer running for the 8hour a day duration of the lights at roughly 1 bubble every 3 seconds. And I haven't noticed clear poop but I have noticed picky feeding and dwelling under cover at times.


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## REDSTEVEO (3 Nov 2012)

Hi there I am going to be dead honest with you here, I have never used Kusuri or Fluke solve so I am afraid I could not make a recommendation on the uses of these products. I kept most of my discus while I was in Germany so used mostly products that were available in Germany like Flubenol or Flubendazole. 

When you receive the products either ask the seller a question or see if the guidance instructions on the packet give any indication on whether the two products can be used together. My gut reaction is not to use both products together. 

Getting back to the point in question, all is not lost remember I said you need to try a process of elimination to narrow down the possibilities, well let's look at the Fluke Solve first. The Fluke solve is for Gill Flukes which affect the gills and prevent the fish from breathing properly. If you see the mouth opening and closing more than 60 to 80 times per minute that would indicate that they are having to pump more water through their gills to get the oxygen they need. It is a bit like us when we run, we start to breath quicker to get more oxygen. If the discus fish has gill flukes this reduces the efficiency of the gills to transfer oxygen so they breath quicker to try and compensate. Some discus will start breathing to a rate of 120 to 180 per minute which is really bad. This stresses the fish out and they stop eating and the situation goes down hill from there.

Secondly, the Kusuri product is a worming treatment for removing parasitic worm infestations of the digestive tract. Oddly enough a lot of discus carry these worms but they never become a problem until the fish get stressed and then the symptoms really start to take over. So you have to observe the fish, the other fish in the tank with them, the water parameters, CO2, temperature etc and carry out a few measures but not too many or you will never know what it was you did that cured them.

Raising the temperature is a good start, switch off or reduce your CO2 injection by about 50%. There is some evidence that people have experience problems with CO2 and discus especially if they come from a none CO2 tank to a CO2 tank without a period of gradual acclimatisation. In my planted discus tanks I switched off all the CO2 for a week or two until there was virtually zero CO2 and then started adding it gradually until the fish got used to it. Remember the CO2 helps the plants to photosynthesize and give off oxygen which is a good thing, as long as you don't overdose it.

This is what I would do if I were in your position, rather than bung whichever product you decide to go with first into the tank, try the bathing method. A small 10 to 15 litre container with the respective amount of treatment for that quantity of water, use your tank water not fresh water, 29 to 30 degrees if possible, no filtration but a gentle aeration using an air pump and stone, remove the fish from the tank as carefully and gently as possible and place in the container out of bright light but not pitch black. Make sure there is a lid on the container otherwise the discus could jump out if it gets over stressed, I have used large Tupperware containers in the past which means that you can observe the fish but it can't see you.  If possible and the fish does not show signs of severe stress like floating upside down or lying permanently on its side, try keeping the discus in the container for anywhere up to an hour but at least 20 minutes. Observe the fish every few minutes to check for changes, make sure you do not overdose whichever medication you choose to use first. My bet is you will go for the worm treatment first.  

There would be no harm in treating both fish at the same time, just might need a bigger container.

My only other query is your fish list, everything on the list looks fine to me except the Botias. If you mean Clown loaches, the orange and black ones, these are notoriously boisterous and like to rummage around everywhere looking for food in the substrate, which is what the discus like to do except a lot slower. The Botias might be disturbing the Discus eating? Take a look at this link for how big these things can grow...

http://www.ivanov.ch/images/-poissons/c ... ch_big.jpg

Other points of reference are the links posted below. Don't just take my advice, have a look at what is out there and maybe get involved in a specific Discus Web forum such as BIDKA, or UK Discus Association.

for reference...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...d=7094;start=0

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...d=8162;start=0

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...=7526;start=15


http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index...d=9616;start=0

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.ph ... 94;start=0

Good luck and let me know how you are getting on.

Cheers,

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO (5 Nov 2012)

Hi, How are you getting on, not too stressed out I hope.

One other thing I did not mention in my last post was something I learned late on in discus keeping. Discus generally do well in larger groups like 10 or 12. Unless they are a mating pair and kept separate for breeding purposes, young fish as singles or pairs do tend to do as well because they have come from large groups and used to the security of being in a group. More importantly which may be the case in your situation they also tend to lose the group feeding mentality / habit and one fish can dominate another one quite easily.

Just thought I would mention it.

Cheers,

Steve


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## cheekycharly (6 Nov 2012)

Hiya Steve - not doing too great at the second ...



 (Taken 20.40 6.11.12)

I received my Fluke Solve & Kusuri yesterday and read the instructions and dosed the required amount. Just not sure how long treatment takes before its fully effective.The fish is still swimming around with the other one  and always at the front looking for another feeding but still remains dark in colour. I did see the fish itch its gill on a price of Java fern approx 10-15 min after I treat which made me kind of happy that I might have nailed the cause but no other rubbing since. From looking at the picture is it possible to sex the fish? (Is it by the shape of the head??).

I did notice my other blue one shaking his body at the other fish yesterday which I had seen them do when I first got them but there is no sign of egg laying.





I watch my tank all the time and it's a bedroom tank as I find it helps me relax and switch off so I can see there is no bullying going on - even with the light off as I've been sad enough to try and watch them in the dark. 

Co2 has been knocked off for the last couple of days but no change apart from my Co2 solution has gone from green to blue.

Running out of ideas other than to separate the fish for a bit and see if he/she improves.


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## cheekycharly (6 Nov 2012)

Forgot to mention that its not Clown loaches I have it's Botia Striata but that clown loach pic you posted is a monster!


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## REDSTEVEO (6 Nov 2012)

Hi again,

The fact that the eyes have gone dark as well as the rest of the body indicates a problem. If there was any courtship going on they would both be displaying darker colours but the eyes would have remained red. If both fish have the same disease you would see identical colouration.

Did you treat the whole tank or did you use the bathing method? Also did you dose both medications together or have you gone for just one first.

One technique I have tried in the past is to buy live blood worm and soak them in a solution of the parasite medication, not enough to kill them but long enough for them to ingest it. So when the fish eat the blood worm they take the medication straight into the gut. You could even try this with the other foods you are feeding them, flake or granules. Give the beef heart a miss for a while, if you are going to bathe the sick fish try with the temperature up at 31 degrees and some aeration. This high temperature can also kill off parasites. Make sure you observe the fish the whole time though. 

You are going to have to be patient and give the medication time to work, you can rush things and finish up stressing the fish out even more, it is called killing it with kindness.

Not nice things to hear I know, have you done any other research on the discus links.

Good luck.

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO (13 Nov 2012)

Hi mate how are you getting on? I'm hoping no news is good news :silent:


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## REDSTEVEO (25 Nov 2012)

Come on Cheeky Charlie give us the bad news  

Cheers,

Steve


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## cheekycharly (28 Nov 2012)

Alright Steve, sorry to have kept you waiting I have been working away for a bit. Yes the news is bad it passed away my mrs said about 2weeks ago after it had been reintroduced to the tank after a few days in hospital. 

Was a bit miffed when she told me on the phone but nothing more I could do. 

Adding more filtration to the juwel vision shortly as I've ordered an Eheim 2217 so I will be back on here with questions before I'm off to work away again before I break up for Xmas.

Steve mate your efforts helping me have been top notch and a massive help during the saga. 

Lets hope my future Discus have more luck.


Thanks!


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## REDSTEVEO (29 Nov 2012)

Hi thanks for the kind words and for getting back to me and I am very sorry you could not save it. Sick Discus fish are hard enough to look after even when we are home full time, but when we are away it is even harder, nigh on impossible. With the best will in the world we can't expect our wives to spend as much time as we do looking after them.

Did you come to any final conclusion as to what killed it in the end? My view is that the discus probably had something when you bought them but were strong enough to cope with it. During the move, transportation, new set up, introduction to CO2, different water parameters all contributed to weakening the immune system and one fish coped with it better than the other. (assuming that the other one is still alive)

Incidentally one Discus fish alone is a sad sight and it might suffer as a result. So you need to either move it on or find some tank mates for it.

My advice would be to move this one on and buy a separate group of between 6 and 8 all from the same breeder to avoid any inter contamination.

Best regards,

Steve


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## cheekycharly (21 Dec 2012)

So Steve history repeats itself. I bought it some new tank mates from a chap in Manchester and I am having issues with two after several weeks of being in the tank. The new ones were smaller 1.5-2inch and the remaining discus was larger at 4inch. The problem doesn't appear to be a stress or bullying as they follow the larger discus around like he is their father. One has gone dark in body and hides in the shadows and rarely ventures out for meals (Possibly Hex?)?and the other one seems to have a swim bladder issue always after eating dry foods (Freeze dried Bloodworm). I will get some pictures for you etc in the next 24hours. I'm back home for Xmas and now is good for me to nurse them in a hospital tank if you think needed. I got 6 small ones in total and kept them in the small tank for 1 week before moving them into the larger tank. I dosed the whole tank when they went in with Kusuri and Fluke Solve to be sure. I have since in the last 2days dosed them both again but no change in the Discus. Any thoughts Steve. 

Cheers mate.


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