# The 'nicest' DIY yeast setup.



## NeilW (7 Jul 2010)

Thought I would throw a few questions out there to find out how to get the best out of a yeast based system.  A lot of what I've seen equipment-wise seems to be very utilitarian as its a cheap option but I was curious if it could be done with a bit of ADA style. 

Sorry if they're pretty obvious, just wanted to know peoples experiences/opinions and collect them in one post.     

1) What is the 'best' DIY recipe?  Secret ingredients? Quantities?

2) Is the quantity of CO2 produced enough to be diffused through some nice glassware?  Could it be more made more bling with something like the ADA grey parts set?

3) Is a dropchecker necessary?

4) Would the best way to go be to buy the Nutrafin system to get the canister and then upgrade the rest of the parts? 

Cheers, any guidance welcome.
Neil


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## vauxhallmark (7 Jul 2010)

1 - no secret recipes from me - with the nutrafin one, granulated sugar to the marker, 1/4 - 1/2 tsp yeast, tepid tapwater to the marker. I have hard water and don't add any bicarb, seems to work fine for me.

2 - It's not so much the quantity as the pressure - I've used the nutrafin kit to power a 1 1/4 inch glass diffuser, it works fine. Only problem for me was that it was in my bedroom, so I could hear the diffuser at night, so I changed it back to the nutrafin ladder eventually (it's not a show tank - just spare plants and shrimps!). I do use glass diffusers on the other tank in that room, but it's a pressurised system with a timer, so not going at night. You can use any accessories you like, including the one you suggest - whatever you think looks good and is worth it.

3 - It's a good idea, and a useful indicator, but unless your tank is minute a yeast based system is unlikely to produce so much CO2 that it causes a problem for your fish. I've used them on tanks from 40 - 60l, with no problems, ever.

4 - It's not a bad value kit - if you're upgrading everything then about the only thing you'll be keeping is the reaction cylinder. This, however, is really well made, and lasts forever (so far). You won't have to worry about sealing airlines into bottle lids etc. with this, and it is "ADA grey". You're unlikely to have it on display though! If it's possible, I like to stand the cylinder on the light's starter unit - that way it gets heated in the day and the output goes up, and cools down when the lights go off.

It's just a matter of choice. If you do get it you probably won't feel ripped off. If you upgrade stuff (eg tubing, diffuser), and you subsequently decide on a different system (eg pressurised), than all the kit will be transferable to your new system - and you can keep the nutrafin kit for less "bling" projects.

Hope that's useful,

Mark


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## NeilW (7 Jul 2010)

Nice, cheers Mark, theres some good tips in there.

As far as diffusers go I was thinking one of the nano glass types like this;
http://www.thegreenmachineaquatics....stem/co2-diffusers/co2-glass-pollen-1000-nano
Thats a great idea about easily being able to transfer any nice parts/glassware over if I did go pressurised. 

The tank itself is a nano at 17litres so I'm guessing it would be wise to go for a drop checker.

Thats a nice tip on keeping the canister on the lighting transformer, genius!  

Thanks again,
Neil


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## Harkle420 (7 Jul 2010)

hi just a quick question, i am using a nutrafin while my bottle is being refilled ( my LFS only had a bottle with no saftey cage and i was not keen on this as alot of people will not refill them with no cage) i used that half-spoon sugar will this be ok?? i kind of guess  the yeast will only last half as long?? whats your thinking ??


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## vauxhallmark (7 Jul 2010)

Harkle420 said:
			
		

> hi just a quick question, i am using a nutrafin while my bottle is being refilled ( my LFS only had a bottle with no saftey cage and i was not keen on this as alot of people will not refill them with no cage) i used that half-spoon sugar will this be ok?? i kind of guess  the yeast will only last half as long?? whats your thinking ??



No idea. I'd get a bag of normal sugar to use in the reactor. I'm sure yeast can't use sweetener as a food source, but if it it does it no harm, you're fine. I'd play safe and get some real sugar.

Mark


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## Harkle420 (7 Jul 2010)

yes normal sugar is the daddy, but i use what we had!! it was an co2 mega crisis. all will be fine in the end!   Thanks


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## NeilW (7 Jul 2010)

Just had a thought - would DIY CO2 have the pressure to power an inline diffuser?


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## vauxhallmark (7 Jul 2010)

NeilW said:
			
		

> Just had a thought - would DIY CO2 have the pressure to power an inline diffuser?



I don't know. As far as I know, yeast isn't affected by pressure, and will continue to produce CO2 when the pressure increases as well as it did before - so I would give it a try if that's what you're planning. 

My earliest memories of the power of yeast's CO2 production are from a batch of elderflower champagne my parents made, which ended up having so much CO2 in it that we couldn't remove the bottles from the win rack without the corks blowing out - I don't know how much pressure that needed, but it must have been quite  a bit!

As long as the yeast continues to produce CO2 the pressure will increase until some part of the system fails/allows the pressure out. Hopefully that would be your inline diffuser. If not, then it will be a joint somewhere in your system (which could happen with any source of CO2). 

If anyone knows anything about yeast not surviving under pressure, that would be a useful addition to this thread!

Mark


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## AverageWhiteBloke (8 Jul 2010)

Yeast will not be affected by pressure, I have experimented a fair bit with DIY set ups as I keep both planted tanks and have made wine so this is my penny's worth for what it's worth.   
The problem with DIY and plants is how unstable the fermentation process is which leads to unstable CO2 which in turn can turn to algae problems through fluctuating co2 levels.
However there are certain things that can be done to smooth out these fluctuations depending on your choice of diffusion.

Firstly the recipe itself, I use 200 gram of sugar mixed in 1 ltr of water with 1/2 tspoon of bicarb depending if you have soft or hard water. Leave the bicarb out in hard water as in soft it's only there to buffer up the mix which can get so acidic it can kill off the yeast (co2 is acidic)

The reason for the 200g in a litre is because more sugar will not be used as if this fully fermented out the alcohol content will kill off the yeast wasting sugar plus over loading the yeast with too much can cause the ferment to stick. 
The fermentation process has three phases, first there is aerobic( in the presence of oxygen) then anaerobic (without the presence of oxygen) then the tail end. The only part we need to use is the anaerobic as the the other 2 create very slow co2 production to the point of being pointless. 
Fully fermented out syrup with this SG will produce a wine dry (no sugar) with an alcohol content of roughly 10% anything higher takes a long time a specialist yeast which is no interest to us.

How to smooth it out IMO, You can use two bottles and start the aerobic part which last roughly 24 hours on the second bottle as the first bottle is starting to come to an end so that when you connect it up to your system its already going into anaerobic. Another method I use is rather than start a totally fresh batch syphon off the majority of it leaving the yeast sediment in the bottom of the bottle with some of the wine and just add your new syrup to that. This yeast is already working anearobic so the ferment picks up quicker and if you can do this late evening when the co2 is not needed so the next morning it should be getting back to full strength.

The reason I mentioned how your diffusing the co2 is because if you are using the glass ceramic diffuser they need a fair bit of pressure to get going which will delay the co2 going into the tank further, other methods like spiral ladders intakes of filter that don't need pressure built up are quicker at getting the co2 from the bottle to the tank.
Another problem with the glass diffusers are one tiny leak and the pressure will drop enough to stop it working which is not a problem with the other methods I mention.

As for sweeteners like saccharin a lot of wine makers add these to over dry wines post fermenting to sweeten them up because they won't cause secondary fermentation busting your bottles like you have mentioned so I'm guessing they won't work.


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## NeilW (8 Jul 2010)

Thank you for the in-depth explanation   



			
				AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> Firstly the recipe itself, I use 200 gram of sugar mixed in 1 ltr of water with 1/2 tspoon of bicarb depending if you have soft or hard water. Leave the bicarb out in hard water as in soft it's only there to buffer up the mix which can get so acidic it can kill off the yeast (co2 is acidic)


You havn't mentioned yeast, how much would you add?  I have hard water so thats a bonus.  Would the water need de-chlor too?



			
				AverageWhiteBloke said:
			
		

> ...Another method I use is rather than start a totally fresh batch syphon off the majority of it leaving the yeast sediment in the bottom of the bottle with some of the wine and just add your new syrup to that.


By syrup do you mean a fresh mix?  Would this be mixed before or after adding to the existing stuff? 


After reading more into it it seems yeast fermentation is tricky to master as been suggested.  Is DIY CO2 a truly viable method or just a plain recipe for an algae disaster?

I just found these inline glass diffusers which look amazing, but still based on the ceramic idea so may not work;
http://www.calaqualabs.com/diffusers.html

Anyone got ideas for a cheap airtight container that would look nice (and isn't a coke bottle )?  Seems daft spending Â£18+ on a Hagen kit just to get the generator.  Maybe a container thats intended for another purpose.  I'm struggling with some out-of the-box thinking.

Thanks again for your help everyone.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (9 Jul 2010)

> You havn't mentioned yeast, how much would you add? I have hard water so thats a bonus. Would the water need de-chlor too?



I just add a teaspoon it's not exact science, the dry yeast you buy is just yeast in a dormant state as soon as its in water, warm and in sugar it will come to life and multiply like a bacteria, every time you see a tiny co2 bubble in the bottle the yeast has just multiplied as long as conditions are right it will keep doing so until there is no more sugar or the alcohol content gets too high for it too live then it will go dormant again.



> By syrup do you mean a fresh mix? Would this be mixed before or after adding to the existing stuff?



Syrup is just the water and sugar mix, the active yeast is already in the bottle so no need to add yeast again. Chlorine can kill yeast so better off using water that been boiled in the kettle and left to cool. Yeast can be killed by sudden changes in temperature so don't mix yeast into any water other than room temp. Never put sugar in the bottle is its dry state dissolve it in water, undissolved sugar can stick a ferment.



> After reading more into it it seems yeast fermentation is tricky to master as been suggested. Is DIY CO2 a truly viable method or just a plain recipe for an algae disaster?



Co2 is Co2 if you get it into your tank it will feed the plants, using the methods I mention you can control it's flow, also there are ways of switching it off by using a cheap airline valve to knock it off (BIG WARNING) by knocking it off I mean by opening the valve releasing the co2 into the air rather than the tank not shutting down the bottle, the bottle will explode!

IMO DIY can be used without problems with these techniques for either small tanks or big tanks with low lighting, if you have a larger tank or your co2 needs are high then a pressurised system would be more effective. I personally have it running alongside pressurised which gives me more control, I am at work at the moment but will try and post things up later on my full DIY system and how I go about it if that helps.

As for the glass diffuser most will work to some extent but the inherent problem with these is they do need a lot of pressure to get going, even at times they will release the co2 through the diffuser but if the mix can't hold the pressure it will just stop until pressure builds up again making it intermittant. DIY is best used on systems that don't need to hold pressure.
I guess your thinking of using the drill hole in cap and pull the tubing through method that's all over the net? IME whether you use soft or hard tubing after a while the tubing will lose its seal on a pressurised system as the tubing just conforms to the shape of the hole which is why I recommend none pressurised diffusion.
BTW there's nothing wrong with a coke bottle or any to that matter, I have thought about a fairy liquid bottle depending on if the nozzle still comes the same size as airline tubing so the tubing will just push fit on to it but the newer bottle may be different. I don't pressurise diy co2 any more because of the reasons I mention but it can be done, I even considered a brake bleed nipple drilled with a nut and gasket on maybe worth a try.


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## vauxhallmark (9 Jul 2010)

I'm not sure what you're saying AWB.

On page one of this discussion you say "Yeast will not be affected by pressure", and on page 2 you say " if the mix can't hold the pressure it will just stop until pressure builds up again making it intermittant".

So we seem to be no further on. Does anyone know if yeast is affected by the kind of pressures we would experience in a container attached to a glass diffuser?

From my experience pressure has no effect on the yeast, and it will continue to produce CO2 just as well connected to a glass diffuser as to a low pressure device (eg a reactor, or a ladder).

I'd love to hear if any scientists know the real answer to this query. 

Fairy liquid bottles area  great idea! Never thought of that. My concern would be that the pressure could lift the "nozzle" part of the bottle part, as it is not threaded - but snaps for coming up with that idea!

Mark


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## AverageWhiteBloke (9 Jul 2010)

Sorry will make it clearer yeast will not be affected by the pressure at all, what IS affected by pressure is the ceramic glass diffusers, what I meant by the yeast can't hold the pressure I mean by the pressure required to make the diffuser work, once this pressure gets released by the diffuser it can sometimes stop until enough pressure builds up again is that any clearer?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (10 Jul 2010)

> I'd love to hear if any scientists know the real answer to this query.


Due to lack of scientists you might have to do with me   Check out this to see if it's scientific enough for you http://www.ajevonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/31/1/46 been doing a little investigation that was about the easiest to understand. 


> The onset of fermentation was delayed by carbon dioxide pressure; however, the maximum fermentation rate was not greatly affected.



That experiment was conducted at 0.6 atm which us about 0.6 bar, 1 atm = 1.01325 bar.  but found not much difference up to 5 atm. Looking at other sites the results were greatly affected by sugar content and PH.
Considering that the people in here worry about being able to maintain 1.8 bar for some of the higher pressure in-line diffusers I don't think that the pressure in our bottles is that much of a concern as when the ferment is getting started were not dealing with them pressures and we could always use a second bottle to start the ferment with cotton wool stuffed in the top so the initial stage is not under pressure which that link refers.
The the answer I guess is yes and no  :? does it affect it yes should it bother what we are trying to do? Probably no.

On the subject of the pressurised diffusing which you may have interpreted wrong , I used a cheapy glass ceramic disc nano. At times when co2 production was not at it's highest the system would pressure up, start diffusing then because of the drop in pressure stop for a little while then come back on. This wasn't down to the pressure slowing down the ferment more than if not under pressure but more likely to either not  enough co2 production being able to hold the pressure required to make the diffuser work or possible leaks at high pressure.
Leaking at high pressure is what happened to me, I had only the tubing direct from the bottle cap direct to the nano and tested for seals with soapy water which showed no leaks then while watched for a while one small bubble would pop from around where the tube went into the cap which was enough to stop the diffuser working and only leaked when a certain pressure was reached. Conclusion the pressure required to cause the leak was less than required to make the diffuser work.
Without the pressure by using likes of ladders or into filter outlets the co2 just took path of least resistance and went into the tank.
Maybe if we find a better way rather than the pipe through cap method I will have another shot at running a nano diffuser on diy but TBH going into my internal filter which has a spray bar pointing vertical produces smaller bubbles than my nano connected to pressurised bottle co2.

Hope that's of some use.


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## Anonymous (25 Jul 2010)

Good detailed thread. Cant help aesthetics but If your desperate for some good pressure out of your DIY CO2 try aiming a desk lamp at the bottom of the bottle!!ha But watch you don't put it too close so it doesn't burn it. I used to do this in my teenage years and got consistent heavy streams of bubbles for about two weeks straight. Used a teaspoon of yeast, table spoon of flour (protein for the yeast to multiply during the initial aerobic respiration period which I left for a couple of hours, but the longer the better), a cup of sugar, and filled a 2litre coke bottle three quarters full with warm water. Mix water and sugar, then add yeast and flour, mix well, leave to breathe for a while, then screw the top on. Read somewhere that fruit juice also has an effect if the yeast prefers fructose over maltose or any other sugar compound. Bicarbonated soda is optional. 
Another method is using a water bath, so placing the fermenter (coke bottle) in a tub of water with a small aquarium heater.  Or any other method you can come up with. "Imagination is more important than knowledge"- Albert Einstein.   haha
The only variable left out of this thread is temperature! I'm not sure of the optimal temperature for most yeast species but If you kept using the same yeast stuck to the bottom of the bottle you may end up with a yeast super strain through natural selection!! ha


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## AverageWhiteBloke (25 Jul 2010)

> Read somewhere that fruit juice also has an effect if the yeast prefers fructose over maltose or any other sugar compound


Adding some fruit would help although I don't know what the risks are other than the messy concoction that would be in the bottle. The yeast used in fermentation is based on the natural yeast that develops on fruit all over the world. The ones we buy out of shops are cultivated especially for grapes. When people make wine from country ingredients even things like nettles! they often add a bit of grape juice to give the yeast a better chance so adding a few grapes to the bottle would help, I don't think by much though.  



> The only variable left out of this thread is temperature! I'm not sure of the optimal temperature for most yeast species but If you kept using the same yeast stuck to the bottom of the bottle you may end up with a yeast super strain through natural selection!! ha



 The optimal temp is between 18 and 35 deg above that will kill off the yeast. Between these temps the yeast don't really care, like co2 and nutrients in a planted tank if you increase the temp it will speed up the metabolism but as long as the food(sugar) and nutrients are provided it will happily just consume it and multiply faster producing more co2.  Using the same yeast in the bottom of the bottle has its benefits, it's already in anaerobic  fermentation stage so misses out on the slow aerobic start where we are basically bringing the yeast out of its dormant state. This yeast is already reproducing and looking for food. A lot of winemakers keep this secondary yeast ticking over as it were in a bottle ready for when they do a full ferment. At some point though it is worth changing the bottle for fresh because the yeast are also dying in there, I usually do about three with old stuff before I change it.
And saves a few pennies on buying yeast


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