# layout for lilly pipes



## 4ft_shaun (19 Nov 2012)

i have a 48x18x18 (255) litres using 2 cristal profi 1500s, id much prefer to have the glass lilly pipes in there rather than a spray bar, as my height wil come from mainly hardscape so my question is should i aim for a certain layout to aid flow using the lilly pipes so c02 distribution wont become a problem, something of a central island ?

i will place one either side of the tank, in opposing corners?

any advice greatly recived

shaun


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## Antipofish (19 Nov 2012)

Best thing to do Shaun is draw out what you are thinking for hardscape then we can see what flow might suit best.  You need to give your main consideration to obstacles.  I am thinking rotational flow would be most suitable from what you have said so far. (IE returns in opposite corners)


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## 4ft_shaun (19 Nov 2012)

thats what i was thinking opposie ends and oppossing corners, my concern is the substrate level, ill try and upload a picture as ive been messing with stones (still waiting for my tank 5th week   ) and trying to imagine where the flow will travel so to speak, c02 will be inline.


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## Antipofish (19 Nov 2012)

Have you thought what type of Lily Pipes you will get ? Cal Aqua do one (Efflux F3) which pushes the water DOWN (and thus the CO2 in it). Thus the CO2 from the right hand one would reach substrate level and be circulated by the second, and vice versa.


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## REDSTEVEO (19 Nov 2012)

Here is the link.

http://www.aquajardin.co.uk/product/159 ... f3_outflow

Expensive mind you!


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## Antipofish (19 Nov 2012)

REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Here is the link.
> 
> http://www.aquajardin.co.uk/product/159 ... f3_outflow
> 
> Expensive mind you!



Thats the one.  Worth it if it does what's required.


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## 4ft_shaun (19 Nov 2012)

I do like the idea of that particular lilly pipe, and i would invest if it did what it said, my worry would be breaking the thing, i wouldnt be to happy if i did plus i need 2, its a hobbby i really want to put blood, sweat and tears into and to me the little things like lilly pipes etc needs to be adressed from the start although i know in theory it all looks good, doing the practical, well thats where the tears will come in haha


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## Garuf (19 Nov 2012)

I wouldn't stress about lily pipes overly, I personally found that the JBL triangular jet outlet gave both better surface movement and over all spread of flow than any type of lily pipe I've owned ever has. Lily pipes look nice and aren't made of green or black plastic and that's about all they have going for them in my experience. 

If you'd be stretching yourself to buy lilypipes and don't mind them then I'd say go for some Jbl flouted jet outlets and forget about ever snapping the things.


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## 4ft_shaun (19 Nov 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I wouldn't stress about lily pipes overly, I personally found that the JBL triangular jet outlet gave both better surface movement and over all spread of flow than any type of lily pipe I've owned ever has. Lily pipes look nice and aren't made of green or black plastic and that's about all they have going for them in my experience.
> 
> If you'd be stretching yourself to buy lilypipes and don't mind them then I'd say go for some Jbl flouted jet outlets and forget about ever snapping the things.



I obviously have the jbl triangular jets and will be using these anyway while filtering the tank with just aquasoil and hard scape so I will be looking at the flow then. I'm also doing it for aesthetic purposes but don't want my lily pipes to look nice but plants look terrible so need a solution to both problems. 

Shaun


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## tim (19 Nov 2012)

buy acrylic and make your own inlet oulets


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## Garuf (19 Nov 2012)

Have you used them in the past? They're not as obvious as you'd think. If you do go for lilys, I've used all of the big brands with the exception of do aqua and I would say that though cal aqua is the best, there's very little in it between them and the much cheaper powerman lilys, I've not had much luck with Gush, bought one and the neck was so shallow you had to brim the tank to submerge it entirely, I wouldn't buy them again, customer service was bad too when I reported the issue, I'd personally mix and match lilys, the powermen will give better surface agitation where as the cal aquas give better distribution of flow at low levels in the tank but even then they're much of a muchness.


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## Antipofish (19 Nov 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I wouldn't stress about lily pipes overly, I personally found that the JBL triangular jet outlet gave both better surface movement and over all spread of flow than any type of lily pipe I've owned ever has. Lily pipes look nice and aren't made of green or black plastic and that's about all they have going for them in my experience.
> 
> If you'd be stretching yourself to buy lilypipes and don't mind them then I'd say go for some Jbl flouted jet outlets and forget about ever snapping the things.



I think you do them a disservice and it sounds like you are just against spending the money / taking the risk.  I think the Efflux F3 by Cal Aqua is as good as any other type of outlet I have used.  I wont say better, although it does look a lot nicer.  So I would conclude that if someone has the budget, then its as good an option as any.  The plants certainly wont suffer for it, as can be seen by results achieved by scapers far more experienced than myself who use them.


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## Garuf (19 Nov 2012)

Nope, like I say, I've owned them all, Cal aqua, ada, gush, PM, Aquatic magic and one or too other "non brands" too I took a risk on them and saw no better in terms of performance from the cal aqua's than any other brand for the money and personally found the plastic jbl lilys to give the best surface agitation and distribution across the bottom and the widest spread of flow across the bottom of the tank. As I mentioned in my other post, there are trade offs the PM ones gave a much better level of surface movement but aren't as good at pushing water downwards, the cal aquas, barely any surface movement, certainly not the noticeable ripple from PM and ADA, the cal aquas however were better at pushing water downward, the jbl outlets however offered the best of both. I'm certainly not adverse to spending money on good quality products, I'm merely stating that there's very little difference in performance from any of the products.    

The outlets are less important than the inlets, even the Cal aqua inlets strangle the flow compared to the ehiem or jbl standard inlets! Try it for yourself and see, you can knock 10-20% of the turnover off with them.


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## 4ft_shaun (20 Nov 2012)

There's certainly an argument for and against I will run the tank on the standard jbl intakes and outlets for a few week before planting, then i will purchase the cal aquas to compare, the inlet pipe however I would imagine its the strainer type that would restrict flow and not the pipe it's self?


Shaun


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## Antipofish (20 Nov 2012)

Well I really dont see the issue with an inlet reducing flow a bit.  The OP of this post has stated he is having TWO filters so where is the problem ?  The 10x flow is a guideline, not an absolute. People get too hung up on it. The reason we suggest high flow is to give the best chance of CO2 distribution, but everything has to be balanced against other criteria... one of which is the appearance of the tank for many people, and lily pipes factor into this.  Surface agitation can be achieved in several ways.  I do not like too much agitation during CO2 hours, but you can still get some with the F3 Efflux by adjusting its height.  I prefer to run airstones when the CO2 is off.  Other people dont like too much surface agitation due to having floating plants.


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## 4ft_shaun (20 Nov 2012)

I choose to run 2 filters as both my heater and c02 are inline and putting both on one filter would have reduced flow dramatically. I agree on the inlets not having a influence on flow rates, and my post was more regarding the distribution of c02 and nutrients and how best to achieve this using glass Lilly pipes as apprised to a spraybars, I'm in agreement antipofish about surface agitation and will at least give the efflux f3 a go as I think it is in theory the best solution to my question. 

Cheers

Shaun


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## Garuf (20 Nov 2012)

Ahh well in response to your question directly, it's largely impossibly to say as every tank is different, you would have to find the sweet spot by experimentation. That said, when I've ran two filters in the past I find that having an outlet in each corner tends to give really good flow characteristics as does outlets on both ends.

What restricts the flow with intakes is the slats themselves, they're very thin and are far too few, even cal aquas which are very good really knock the flow down, 10% of 600lph is still 60lph which is quite a lot of turnover to lose because of glass ware, a hydor will knock off another 10%, that 1200lph filter isn't so great once you consider it's probably producing more like 480lph potentially even less as every filter I've ever tested I get around 40% stated performance in real working conditions. 

Antipofish, I appreciate where your coming from but I am merely stating my own experiences from a long time in dealing with equipment and the hobby. Yes it's a guide line, it's flexible but it's a very useful one, I know why the rule exists and it's ins and outs. I also think you're taking my point on surface agitation to a relative extreme, surface agitation is a good thing especially during the photoperiod. A nice ripple is preferable, it allows better gas exchange, more o2 in the water and healthier fish, yes some people have floaters but then they will have lower light tanks and it will be less important. 

As I see it You're arguing a largely irrelevant point, what I stated still stands, all lily pipes are largely the same regardless of brand and in my experience from dealing with them you can get best results by mixing brands and using the standard inlets yet even then better results too can be had by using the jbl fluted outlets which produce better flow characteristics in my experience. I say this because I think it's a helpful bit of information for fellow hobbyists not because I've got a downer on anything, I use lily pipes myself on my small tanks and I'm merely sharing what I've found to give the best results. I see no reason to be argue it.


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## 4ft_shaun (20 Nov 2012)

Everything you've said garuf has been appreciated and taken on boared and you have raised some valid points I will be trailing the standard jbl triangular flows before the Lilly pipes, it all comes down to wanting the inside of the tank to look as easy on the eye in regards to equipment and glassware is far superior in that regard

Thanks again 

Shaun


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## Garuf (20 Nov 2012)

I hear you there, very little has that wow factor like a tank at reasonable distance and all you can see is the scape, I've been saying it for what seems like forever, the hobby is crying out for some clear plastic hardware!


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## Antipofish (20 Nov 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> What restricts the flow with intakes is the slats themselves, they're very thin and are far too few, even cal aquas which are very good really knock the flow down, 10% of 600lph is still 60lph which is quite a lot of turnover to lose because of glass ware



I know what it is that restricts the flow as I own this unit myself. However, you have acknowledged that the Cal aquas are better than most.  In fact they have slats going much further up the pipe than most brands.  And I still disagree that its too much flow to lose. People put inline reactors on and can lose up to 40% with no significant problems in the tank. Why then is 10% such a problem?  The point you seem to make is that 10% is too much to lose "just for glassware" but then you have already admitted you consider the aesthetics of glassware less important.  This is not to say that aesthetics are unimportant to everyone though, its just personal opinion (to which you are entitled of course, as each of us are).



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> Antipofish, I appreciate where your coming from but I am merely stating my own experiences from a long time in dealing with equipment and the hobby. Yes it's a guide line, it's flexible but it's a very useful one, I know why the rule exists and it's ins and outs. I also think you're taking my point on surface agitation to a relative extreme, surface agitation is a good thing especially during the photoperiod. A nice ripple is preferable, it allows better gas exchange, more o2 in the water and healthier fish, yes some people have floaters but then they will have lower light tanks and it will be less important.
> 
> As I see it You're arguing a largely irrelevant point, what I stated still stands, all lily pipes are largely the same regardless of brand and in my experience from dealing with them you can get best results by mixing brands and using the standard inlets yet even then better results too can be had by using the jbl fluted outlets which produce better flow characteristics in my experience. I say this because I think it's a helpful bit of information for fellow hobbyists not because I've got a downer on anything, I use lily pipes myself on my small tanks and I'm merely sharing what I've found to give the best results. I see no reason to be argue it.



Again, you are entitled to your opinion Garuf, but I do not think my point is irrelevant and feel somewhat affronted by that comment.  All lily pipes are NOT the same regardless of brand or why do manufacturers make different types ? Pariahrob, for example, has successfully used the bubble type outflow which puts most of its flow upwards because it suited his tank. Shaun wants a lily pipe that gives good CO2 distribution and from my own experience of using the Cal Aqua Efflux F3 (as well as advice from the guys at Aqua Jardin) the product I have suggested is specifically designed for that purpose compared to alternative designs. You have agreed that the "rule" is flexible, so I don't know why you want to make my point irrelevant. 

There are other ways of increasing o2 levels as I mentioned.  I simply raise the height of my F3 and I get both good downward flow AND surface movement. And like Shaun is intending, I have two filters on my tank, thus doubling the surface agitation without sacrificing the downward flow required for CO2 distribution. 

Incidentally, I am not "arguing" with you, I am merely suggesting that your experiences are not necessarily the only ones that are "relevant"


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## Dan Crawford (21 Nov 2012)

Hey guys, the glassware issue has been discussed loads of times and there's never a good answer for everyone - what works for one doesn't always work for another so personal experiences are the only way of allowing someone to make their own judgment.

If you want my opinion, Cal Aqua has always been the best for me. The ones I have push flow downwards whilst drawing a nice vortex from the surface. I've tried and tested quite a bit of glassware over the years and i've found Cal Aqua to be my favorite, that doesn't mean it's the best, it just works for my requirements ie. pushes rising CO2 bubbles back down allowing more contact time with the water.

If you're local or happy to travel then i'll be more than happy to let you borrow some to test before you make the plunge....


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## Ady34 (21 Nov 2012)

Now that is the table of a die hard hobbyist!  
I bought the Tankscape ones and find that they do the same as Dan has just described. Draw a vortex from the top and push water downwards to the substrate increasing co2 bubble contact time   I was surprised at the filter inlet glass as the cuts for water flow are limited and I did question whether it would restrict flow at all.....seems like it doesn't as when clean the G6 runs at optimal flow   
Cheerio
Ady


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## 4ft_shaun (21 Nov 2012)

Reminds me of an old science lab from school lol, after deliberation I'm going for the cal aquas efflux f3 one either end of the tank (120x45x45)aimed towards the front, like dans says what works for one might not work for the other but I think it's a good starting point and one I think in theory should work for me, only time and plants will tell, that's if my tank ever arrives   the makers shall remain nameless but never again

Cheers for all the input on this matter

Shaun


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## Antipofish (21 Nov 2012)

Dan, you must have a small fortune of Glassware there. I hope you dont own a Rottweiler to come in and trample on it all ! LOL.  Is the Cal Aqua one you use an  F3 version ?  I am interested that you mention a vortex and I dont seem to get that with mine.  Cheers.


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## clonitza (22 Nov 2012)

Get the Efflux F3 for the front of the tank and gUSH oPipe 17 for the back (you'll save some extra quid), you don't need to push the water downwards there if you want the plants to grow vertically. Also don't point them both perpendicular to the front, the corners will have too much water flow comparing with the middle of the tank. Aim for a loop inside the tank, this is the correct setup with lily pipes especially if you plant to have hardscape in the middle. 

Mike


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