# Amano Shrimp breeding project



## Animek87 (7 Sep 2018)

Hi Everyone

I've decided to start this jurnal to share my experience with Amano Shrimp breeding.

Its just beginning of my journey so fingers crossed ;]


04/09/18
- female in breeding net berried for apx 3-4 weeks(main tank)
- breeding tank 12l deionized water salanity apx 32-33 ppm /l
11000ml water 398g sea salt mix
24h light 3x power led

06/09/18
- 3 ml phytoplankton poured into breeding tank (dubt there will be any phytoplankton multiplication )
- female still with eggs


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## Edvet (7 Sep 2018)

11 lit water and 400 gr salt??


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## Animek87 (7 Sep 2018)

Edvet said:


> 11 lit water and 400 gr salt??


sea water is 35ppt which means 1000ml of sea water have 35g salt that gives you 965ml water and 35g salt

11000 / 965 = 11.39 
11.39 * 35 = 398.65g
11000ml gives you  apx 399g salt


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## mow said (7 Sep 2018)

Im followig this thread hopefully everything goes well


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## Edvet (7 Sep 2018)

Never would have guessed that amount. ( never had a saltwater tank)


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## soggybongo (7 Sep 2018)

Animek87 said:


> sea water is 35ppt which means 1000ml of sea water have 35g salt that gives you 965ml water and 35g salt
> 
> 11000 / 965 = 11.39
> 11.39 * 35 = 398.65g
> 11000ml gives you  apx 399g salt



hi animek87, i gave up my reef tank a few years ago now however i do remember different makes of reef salts and even the same brand make up different salinity with the same ammount measured so hopefully you are using a calibrated refractor and not the swing type as these can be way off the mark. just one more point for you mate if you are not already aware that reef salts already contain cal, mag and some have strontium depending on the brand used.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (7 Sep 2018)

Let's see how this pans out. Search the forum mate, many have tried with little success so far. Out of curiosity are you planning just dumping from one water type to the other? I would assume to replicate the life cycle of washed out to sea and coming back up rivers the salinity would need to gradually increase then decrease after hatching rather than two extremes no?


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## Animek87 (7 Sep 2018)

soggybongo said:


> hi animek87, i gave up my reef tank a few years ago now however i do remember different makes of reef salts and even the same brand make up different salinity with the same ammount measured so hopefully you are using a calibrated refractor and not the swing type as these can be way off the mark. just one more point for you mate if you are not already aware that reef salts already contain cal, mag and some have strontium depending on the brand used.


Hi
thanks for your replay that's good point and would explain why my ppm is 32-33 instead of aimed 35 (using instant ocean salt mix) 
regarding refractometrer I've calibrated it on deionised water so should be OK
Cheers


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## Animek87 (7 Sep 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Let's see how this pans out. Search the forum mate, many have tried with little success so far. Out of curiosity are you planning just dumping from one water type to the other? I would assume to replicate the life cycle of washed out to sea and coming back up rivers the salinity would need to gradually increase then decrease after hatching rather than two extremes no?


Hi
I've read a lot on Ukaps and some Polish forums so hopefully I'm prepared.
regarding your question I'm planning to dump them into the salt water if this fail then with next batch I'll do it gradually
Cheers Jacob


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## soggybongo (7 Sep 2018)

Animek87 said:


> Hi
> thanks for your replay that's good point and would explain why my ppm is 32-33 instead of aimed 35 (using instant ocean salt mix)
> regarding refractometrer I've calibrated it on deionised water so should be OK
> Cheers



to save you money why not ask lfs for there reef tank water during there water change, this will not only be mature reef water but full of goodness and will be lower than your taget so you can add or dilute with the added benifit of all the nutrients


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## Animek87 (8 Sep 2018)

got one friend who has 500l reef tank I might ask him when I run out of salt or if first batch fail now I'm patiently waiting for babies :]


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## Animek87 (9 Sep 2018)

quick update not directly related with shrimps 
changed 3x power led to 7x hopefully will be better for developing diatoms


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## Animek87 (11 Sep 2018)

Today I've noticed some green algae on the bottom of the breeding tank, not sure if that's because of 3ml of phytoplankton dosed 5 days ago or tank with 24h light for past 7 days


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## Daneland (11 Sep 2018)

Animek87 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I've decided to start this jurnal to share my experience with Amano Shrimp breeding.
> 
> ...



I dont think that you can harvest zoe from breeding net as they are tinny they will spread in to the tank and will be eaten. You should put berried amano in to a container until zoes are released. After zoes are released, you can transfer them to your salty breeding tank with a turkey buster.
I  guess no need to say that adult amanos will not survive in salty water.


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## Animek87 (11 Sep 2018)

Daneland said:


> I dont think that you can harvest zoe from breeding net as they are tinny they will spread in to the tank and will be eaten. You should put berried amano in to a container until zoes are released. After zoes are released, you can transfer them to your salty breeding tank with a turkey buster.
> I  guess no need to say that adult amanos will not survive in salty water.


Its very fine net and had no problem with keeping inn baby neocardina shrimps which looked like dust ;] if it doesn't work ill try your method also want to keep female in main tank as she might drop eggs in separate container 
Thanks


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## Animek87 (16 Sep 2018)

Hi all

Yesterday first Zoe hatched, i had to move female to 2l jar as it was impossible for me to spot zoe in breeding net. 

each time I've spotted Zoe in the jar I've sucked it with 1m tube 
After moving zoe's I've fed them with few mil of phytoplankton 

currently apx 100 zoe's  still waiting for rest

Danelad - you were right  breeding net was bad idea

I've bought second tank 12l which will be setup for berried females


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## jagillham (16 Sep 2018)

Following  Best of luck!


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## AverageWhiteBloke (16 Sep 2018)

Animek87 said:


> I've bought second tank 12l which will be setup for berried females



From all the attempts I've followed setting up a separate tank for berried females yields the most success. Good luck raising them.


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## Animek87 (16 Sep 2018)

I've noticed that even eggs female dropped are hatching not sure if that's normal over 200 zoe's still some eggs need to hatch


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## Animek87 (19 Sep 2018)

day 4

most of the zoe's still alive (hard to count) every day I'm adding 30-60 as they're still hatching  I'm dosing few ml of phytoplankton few times a day 

saltiness 30ppm
temp 24 degrees (no heater)


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## three-fingers (19 Sep 2018)

Will be following with interest, I've never managed to raise the larvae but have been meaning to make a proper attempt for years.

Good luck!


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## Animek87 (20 Sep 2018)

Hi Thanks

touch wood nothing bad happen

day 6

all zoe's seems to be okay I've noticed some of them  have black/brown heads they're close to the bottom and probably feed there
today or tomorrow I'll check if there's any No2/No3
on day 15 im planning to do 20% water change (if they're still alive)

pictures are not best quality but if you zoom you can see them


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## Animek87 (23 Sep 2018)

Hi Everyone
today's is day 9 since I've moved first zoe's to salt water all seems to be ok video below


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## Animek87 (26 Sep 2018)

Hi Everyone 

Yesterday I did small water change apx 1l of water with saltiness 32-33
every day (2-3 times) I'm feeding zoe's with phytoplankton 

all shrimps seems to be ok


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## Animek87 (28 Sep 2018)

Hi Everyone 

Today is day 14 ;] I'm super excited that zoe's survived so long i hope that worst period is behind me
next update in 7 days 

temp - 22 degrees Celsius 
salanity - 33ppm


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## Animek87 (5 Oct 2018)

Hi Everyone 

quick update 

day 21 
lots of zoe's still alive later I'll post some pic/video
salanity 34 ppm 
temp 23 degrees

I'm planing to increase temp to 25-26 degrees as it might speed up zoe's growth, started to grow phytoplankton Nannochloropsis Sp, got 8 berried amanos which are kept in separate tank 

Cheers!!! 


 

 

​


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Oct 2018)

Just a thought on temp mate. If they're doing fine I wouldn't change anything. It just might be the thing you wish you never done at this stage. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Animek87 (5 Oct 2018)

the problem is that winter is coming so indor temp might drop to 19/20 while I'm at work mabye I'll just install heater to keep those 23 degrees


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## AverageWhiteBloke (5 Oct 2018)

Ahh OK, thought it was already heated and you were going to crank it up.

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


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## Aquahorti (5 Oct 2018)

Animek87 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I've decided to start this jurnal to share my experience with Amano Shrimp breeding.
> 
> ...


The density of normal salt is just over 2 sg, so your salinity will be slightly higher when you use that formulation.


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## Animek87 (5 Oct 2018)

Hi 

Should be higher but wasn't as I've checked with hydrometer also it's not normal salt but Instant Ocean one which with normal calculations gives less ppm than with normal salt


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## Animek87 (6 Oct 2018)

video day 22 below (watch on yt with max resolution ) 

Yesterday I've made 5l water change next week planing to make up to 8l so i can see them better
most of the zoe's are attracted to light but some stay away and just feeding on the bottom
started adding spirulina small amounts
temp 25 degree Celsius
salanity 32-33 ppm


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Oct 2018)

Going well mate, how many do you reckon you have in there?


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## Animek87 (6 Oct 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Going well mate, how many do you reckon you have in there?


i would say over 200 but it's hard to see them all as they're spread across the bottom and not all of them are lured by light


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## Animek87 (15 Oct 2018)

Hi Everyone

So today is day 31 for my  zoe's, good news is that they're still alive bad is that some of them didn't make it.
I've stopped feeding them as I assumed they fed on the bottom (this might be the cause ) other than that  I did 5l water change (apx 45%)  so with next batch I'll do 20% water change every 5 days

water temp - 25 degree Celsius
salanity - 33 ppm

any time I'm expecting at least 5 zoe's to morph as they're visibly bigger than the rest
Regarding my berried amanos from 8 only 3 still have bellies full of eggs (they should release them by the end of the month ) remaining 5 dropped them all so they're back to the main tank

short video below (later today I'll try to make better o one)


Cheers to everyone who's still reading this jurnal


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## Daneland (15 Oct 2018)

You are not too far from the end.I bet you will have so many of them. I am planning to copy your project.It is very inspirational


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## AverageWhiteBloke (15 Oct 2018)

Nice one, at what point do you start converting to freshwater and how are you planning on going about it with them all at different stages?


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## Daneland (15 Oct 2018)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Nice one, at what point do you start converting to freshwater and how are you planning on going about it with them all at different stages?


I saw on the videos that complete shrimps start to move like crazy as (I assume) they get burned from salty water. In the nature probably they start to swim towards to fresh water current.


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## CooKieS (15 Oct 2018)

Daneland said:


> I saw on the videos that complete shrimps start to move like crazy as (I assume) they get burned from salty water. In the nature probably they start to swim towards to fresh water current.



This is crazy


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## Lee iley (15 Oct 2018)

You have done really well. I hope they all survive for you. I have just found one of my females pregnant I wouldn't know were to start.


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## Daneland (15 Oct 2018)

Watch it after 5.40


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## Animek87 (19 Oct 2018)

Hey guys

day 35
lots of zoe's died i think there's about 60+ left not sure as water parameters didn't changed, first newborn zoe's added to salt water tank i think those few (about 10)  hatched from eggs dropped by other females. 
From 8 berried females 3 left with lots of eggs and they should start releasing them from 28th


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## a1Matt (20 Oct 2018)

I met a marine biologist once who successfully bred them in their lab. They said it was easy, the main two points being 

1/ having a large tank (500l) with just salt water and using water from that for water changes. (The shrimp themselves were in smaller tanks.) 
2/ having multiple stable phytoplankton cultures to feed them with.

They might have had multiple large tanks at different salinities, it was a few years ago so I can't remember all the details.

I do remember asking if it was hard keeping the cultures alive and she laughed and said it's not hard ordering more


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## Animek87 (25 Oct 2018)

Hi all

today is day 41 and first Zoe morphed into amano shrimp 

I've catched it and now trying to acclimatise for fresh water
Shrimp transferred to glass with Zoe tank water and filling rest of the glass untill full with fresh water, I will repeat that until salanity is 0


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## a1Matt (25 Oct 2018)

Animek87 said:


> today is day 41 and first Zoe morphed into amano shrimp


 Congrats.


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## sparkyweasel (25 Oct 2018)

Yes, congrats indeed. I understand this is a rare achievement


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## Lee iley (25 Oct 2018)

Well done mate that is a great achievement.


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## Animek87 (28 Oct 2018)

Hi 

second Zoe morphed every day I'm adding few new zoe's as females keep releasing them for the last two weeks


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## Ysiatis (29 Oct 2018)

Congratulations ! This is a lot of work !


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## Animek87 (30 Oct 2018)

Hey Guys

today is day 46

by now 4 zoe's morphed 1 gone missing (can't see it in 12l tank) dead or hiding
3 morphed yesterday 2 in the afternoon and 1 in the evening, last one died due to my mistake
first 2 were acclimatising by 1 drop of fresh water every 20-30s slowly decreasing salanity where the last one was moved from 34ppm salanity to 7ppm so on this part you need to be extremely careful and do it slowly with patience

I'll update this post with final results in 2 weeks

Many thanks for everyone's support and hopefully this will help with other people amano projects in future

Cheers


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## DutchMuch (30 Oct 2018)

this is awesome.


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## Hanuman (19 Aug 2019)

Animek87 said:


> I'll update this post with final results in 2 weeks



And what happened with the update?


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## three-fingers (19 Aug 2019)

Raising Amano zoes is hard, I've tried and failed miserably before, lets hope they just never had the opportunity to and then forgot to post, but the documentation and effort here is commendable even if they all died!


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## Hanuman (23 Aug 2019)

I think by now there is plenty of information on the internet for breeding Caridina Multidentata. In fact many have failed and then have succeeded by improving the process.
It's just an involved process and even more so if not planned. Once you are prepared then it isn't that hard I think. I have even seen breeding these shrimps in mere 5 gallon plastic buckets with success. Thing is that many times people just want to rush and breed them once they see the female berried. Unfortunately that is too late and chances are it will be very very difficult simply because of the amount of times you need to feed these creatures per day and the pollution generated, water changes.... For breeding these shrimps one needs to plan properly in advance specially the breeding tank. The breeding tank needs to be set up one if not two or three weeks prior hatching. This is so that the water is loaded with phytoplankton. This allows little to no interference from human once zoes are placed in the saline water tank. Also what I have noticed is that most experiments I have seen around don't really mention anything about the importance of the phytoplankton used. What I mean by that is that each phytoplankton specie has a different cell size and not all are suitable at all stages of the development of the zoes. That is something I have noticed has never been mentioned in any of the experiments I have read and I think I have read most if not all the available ones on internet including those in this forum. The ones that seem to have had the most success are those who planned in advance and made a proper phytoplankton soup. By most success I mean a high survival rate.

I think the phytoplankton selection and the preparation are the most critical aspects of breeding these shrimps. For salinity, most people seem to agree that brackish is a no go despite what that old Japanese research paper says. Water needs to be fully saline water.

I will in due time carry out my own experiment, the el cheapo way (as a proof of concept) and will report my findings. I am feeling rather confident that with the amount of information already available it shouldn't be much of an issue. Problem is most people don't bother breeding the Caridina Multidentata for business simply because it's not cost effective. It's cheaper caught from the wild. If you have access to free clean sea water then things could be cost effective.


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## Animek87 (3 Oct 2022)

Hi Everyone

I've decided to refresh my old journal as recently I've started breeding amano on regular basis.

Apologies I didn't update you with final results
I think it was mabye 10 zoes which morphed and mabye 3 out of those survived in fresh water

Later on i tyred to repeat my "success" and failed miserably =/ all of them died after few days

In past few months I've decided to prepare myself better and I think I have now good knowledge to have successful breeding setup

Current setup is close to what it was before with small adjustments

Let's start with my breeding group
I've purchased 10 adults (2 different shops )  turns out i have 7 females and 3 males

Setup
11l tank for zoes no heater only 3v mini lamp
water temp ( room) 18-23 degrees Celsius
salinity  32-35ppm
 air pump (few bubbles /s)

Feed
phytoplankton
I'm using Nannochloropsis sp which gives me great results
Rotifers - live culture

Process
When I first notice berried female i write down date after apx 4 weeks + i force them to drop eggs by removing them from main tank to 2l jar with air stone (quite strong current) next day they will start releasing zoe's for about week and all dropped eggs will start hatching.
Fishing zoe's by attracting them to the light
Every female without eggs is transferred back to the main tank.
Few times a day all zoe's are transferred to zoe's tank with pipette, from first day i start feeding them (5-10ml of phyto even to get water cloudy )
after 2 weeks I introduce rotifers, they will make water completley transparent after week and zoe's will feed on them (you can still dose phyto in order to keep rotifers multiplying)
First zoe's should morph after 4 weeks
when I notice morphed Zoe I take it out and put in temporary jar with same salinity water.
Freshly morphed zoe's are bit orange or have orange line which can be easily spotted,
i wait another 3-4 days before transferring them to fresh water as they must be transparent with no orange in their body otherwise they will die.
Transfer method 1
few times when babies were completley transparent I've just chucked them in fresh water and they were ok
now I prefer safer method on which I have more control
Transfer method 2
1-2l jar I fill with 100ml of "zoe's water" then I do drip acclimatisation with water from main tank ( 1 drop every 2-3s) so it takes apx 5-12h
every now and then I check salinity and if all babies are alive.
If after few h you can see orange in transferred babies put them back onto full salinity water as from my experience they won't survive ( they will need 1-2 more days before transferring)

my notes below
eggs 27/06/2022 *2
release 01/08
eggs 02/07/2022
release 06/08
eggs 07/07/22
release 11/08
first Zoe 25/07
new hatched zoes 29/07 until 03/08
29/08 - first morphed
totals :
morphed - 29
dead - 15
alive - 14 in main tank
___________________________
06/08/22 - eggs
31/08/22 07/09 - first Zoe transfer
27/09/22 - 9 morphed 1 dead
27/09/22 - 4 temporary jar
01/10/22 - change jar 0
01/10/22 - 4 main tank
totals :
morphed -
dead -
alive -
___________________________

from above you can see its my second run and it looks promising

When preparing to breed amano again I've watched a lot of Avatar Aquatics videos








above 1 baby rdy to transfer and 2 still orange 
Ps.  I'm planning to breed bamboo shrimps and if successful I'll start new journal


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## palcente (3 Oct 2022)

I've been messing around breeding these, so I will share my experience here. I found that leaving them alone to do their thing works the best. I tried heaters, water changes, frequent feeding,  turning down bubbler etc. - I would end up with a few per batch - I learned those were all mistakes.

I only try in the summer - I found out the warmer the better. They won't morph for many weeks when kept in low temperatures, they all seem to slow down during winter and you don't have to bother with heaters etc.
I prep the salt water tank around 1-2 weeks prior.  I add salt as per instruction on the label. I keep some cheap light above the tank 24/7 for first two weeks and small sponge filter. Then I dose few ml of the green water every few days. Bubbler runs quite high - I go with the logic: if they survive in the open sea they will survive the sponge filter - more oxygen is better. Usually algae/filth appears after two weeks - that is food - if I see plenty of it, I turn the light down to 12h and stop feeding all together.
Best yields (50+) I achieved when growing them out in full green water. It just kind of happens eventually during first two weeks. Only takes a little amount of green water to get it going, I get it from ebay for couple of quid.

I put the berried female in the grow out cube and once she drops,  I catch the babies after dark using my phone torch. I then drop them into salt water straight away. That's it.
I leave them be and just top up the water as it evaporates. No feeding, no water changes. Just let them do their thing.

There is a massive die off within first 1-2 days after moving them in the salt water - That's when I lose most of them (probably 75%+) . No matter what I try - I cannot avoid that - I can only guess that is what happens in nature too ?

Anyway everything that survives that first die off, will likely get to the end fine. Any casualties are most likely my fault from here...

In high temperatures (24-25), it takes them 4-5 weeks to morph, Once I start seeing some of them morphed, I try and catch as many as I can - they usually just chill on the glass -  then I give the rest another week and then drain the whole thing -It's easier to catch them that way. I drip adjust them to fresh water - usually couple of hours is enough - the slower the better here.

After that, they do not really die and are quite hardy little things - I once accidentally left one little guy in a drop of water overnight at the bottom of a jug with my net and all the other tools... it survived fine.

Some pictures below.


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## Animek87 (3 Oct 2022)

Good job placente once i did green water bit all of them died, with second attempt i introduced rotifers by accident so they ate all phyto


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## Hanuman (3 Oct 2022)

I never carried out my experiment but maybe now it's a good time. I'll consider doing it now that I have an outdour "pond" filled to the brim with green water 😂. Might use that water to inoculate the zoe tank.


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## Animek87 (3 Oct 2022)

I might be wrong but isn't that fresh water, if so then different type of algae you have there and Zoe won't survive in fresh water. 
If you make it to 35ppm then ale would most likely die


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## Hanuman (4 Oct 2022)

Animek87 said:


> if so then different type of algae you have there


Not so sure. When you create green water, you use RO or dechlorinated tap water right? You then add salt and light the tank. Unless you purposefully add some specific algae I think the algae spores are already present in the water and will develop with the light. Obviously you will have some algae sp that have more or less affinities with sodium but in our context I think they are the same.
Anyhow, I am aware that zoe need salty waters. The idea was merely to use that green water to inoculate the zoe tank with algae. I will make some test and prepare a solution of that green water and mix salt to 35ppm in a small container to see if the algae survives.


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## Hanuman (4 Oct 2022)

@Animek87 Actually you are right about the algae and now I remember why I didn't start my project 2-3 years ago. I wasn't able to find a phytoplancton source here in Thailand.

@palcente What greenwater do you buy on ebay? Mind sharing a link?


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## Animek87 (4 Oct 2022)

hi 
I'm buying form UK based "grower" but species wise it's Nannochloropsis sp I've used to grow it myself as well but last few times failed 









						500ml Live Phytoplankton for Marine Aquarium, great for corals and rotifers  | eBay
					

Zooplankton includes tiny crustaceans such as copepods, amphipods, rotifers and mysis as well as much smaller microscopic life that benefit your aquarium.



					www.ebay.co.uk


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## palcente (4 Oct 2022)

Hanuman said:


> @Animek87 Actually you are right about the algae and now I remember why I didn't start my project 2-3 years ago. I wasn't able to find a phytoplancton source here in Thailand.
> 
> @palcente What greenwater do you buy on ebay? Mind sharing a link?


Live phytoplankton, nanochlorosis kind. It's the stuff you feed the corals with. You just need a little bit, maybe 50ml. The smallest size they sell.


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## Animek87 (6 Oct 2022)

quick update on current batch

06/08/22 - eggs
31/08/22 07/09 - first Zoe transfer
27/09/22 - 14 morphed 1 dead
06/10/22 - 7 temporary jar
01/10/22 - change jar 0
06/10/22 - 5 main tank
totals :
morphed -
dead -
alive -

There's also a lot of zoe's which will morph any day

I'll update totals after this batch is done
currently I have  2  berried females which are releasing eggs and I've started transferring zoe's to the same tank as current batch.

I'm experimenting to see if there's enough food for new zoe's to survive as it would make my life easier and simplify the whole process
Also I'm having another go with growing phytoplankton (did succeed in the past on windowsill) fingers crossed

Only 2 berried most probably because of the temp 18-20 degree Celsius before was 22 degrees and 7 females had eggs under belly, its not bad as this is 3rd batch and its constant work around them so at least I'll have few weeks break (hopefully)

I'm also preparing 60l tank for all new baby amano's + bamboo shrimps


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## Animek87 (17 Oct 2022)

hi all final count for batch number 2 below, unfortunately experiment with rotifers failed and all Zoe's died

06/08/22 - eggs
31/08/22 07/09 - first Zoe transfer
27/09/22 - 29 morphed 1 dead
totals :
morphed - 30
dead - 1
alive - 29

I'll have to stick with the oryginal setup ( green water) then after 2-3 weeks adding rotifers

Piece of advice after i spot morphed Zoe's I've kept them in salt water for 3-4 days then transfer to freshly water (drip acclimatisation method) which resulted in 0 deaths

Many thanks to everyone who commented and was interested in reading this journal

Good luck everyone!!!! 



60l


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## Hanuman (17 Oct 2022)

So a third attempt!

Don't you think that without the rotifers all together it would be best? That would avoid competition for food.


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## Animek87 (17 Oct 2022)

Well I'll have next batch soon as 5 females are berried again and yes I think rotifers ate all phyto and left nothing for babies which could not feed on them i plan to do phyto water and eventually introduce rotifers on week 3-4

Cheers


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## Hanuman (18 Oct 2022)

I was able to find a source of live nanochlorosis finally. It's been very painful to get a hold of it here in Thailand. For some reason the only 2 places I could find phytoplanctons only sold them as deactivated algae cells, so basically useless to culture. I was able to agree with one of them to sell me live ones. Now I need to set all up. Will probably open a new thread not to pollute your journal.


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## Animek87 (18 Oct 2022)

Hi 
good job fingers crossed for your success =)


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