# Decent base soil and top sand to use???



## Keetchy (10 Nov 2019)

Hey hey

So at the moment I have granular substrate and granular gravel on top. I am having a real bad issue with HITH and ulcers in my discus tank. Just hope I cure it all before I lose them all.

Someone has suggested getting rid of the substrate and gravel I got cause it'll be causing issues, and replace it with base soil and top sand.

Any suggestions to what soil and what sand to use. Dont want black top sand though cause that will bring peppering out in the Discus. But not white either as it'll be harder to keep looking clean


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## alto (10 Nov 2019)

Not a substrate suggestion but I’d place the discus in a bare tank to sort out the health issues first

Ulcers suggest poor water quality so focus in that first
Do you have any nearby vets with fish experience/training - depending on severity, antibiotics may be needed to clear the ulcers 

Metronidazole has been helpful in some instances of HITH (some have reported positive response to levamisole~food)


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## Keetchy (10 Nov 2019)

I have a plan of action. Tomorrow I have Baktopur arriving so will do a big water change tomorrow and start dosing that into the tank.
Tuesday I have Octocil arriving so will do a massive WC on the QT tank and then start dosing that in the QT tank.

The QT tank is holding 2 discus with HITH and the main tank has the rest of the fish in, including the 1 with early signs of an ulcer.

If they all survive, the plan is to rip out all the substrate and plants to bare bottom, then start from scratch with suggested base soil and top sand. Something that is going to be more healthy to keep discus in.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (11 Nov 2019)

Regarding sand, I have always found kiln dried sand from a certain orange diy store up very good indeed. Natural colour and no washing required.


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## Keetchy (12 Nov 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Regarding sand, I have always found kiln dried sand from a certain orange diy store up very good indeed. Natural colour and no washing required.


Ah ok. Like paving block sand? And that can be used in an aquarium without being washed and rinsed first?


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (12 Nov 2019)

Yes, I can only vouch for this specific product though which I have direct experience with!!


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## Tim Harrison (12 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> Any suggestions to what soil and what sand to use.


If you want to go soil substate take a look at The Soil Substrate Tank, it'll be a good option for growing plants. 
And pool filter sand is a good option for capping soil. It's cheap and composed of natural quartzite grains.


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## alto (12 Nov 2019)

As this is discus and you’ve had some some issues, I’d be conservative in both soil and sand substrate components 
- I’d use an Aquarium Soil such as Tropica (manufactured to order product), choosing a product that releases none to minimal ammonia (if you go this route, contact manufacturers about product specifications) 
(unlike “natural” soil this will always cloud less and be less affected by substrate disturbances)
- if using a standard “soil”, use a product that has possibly been sterilized and definitely go through the mineralization process (I believe Tim covers this in his “sticky”)
- sand, again confirm product specifications with supplier, and thoroughly wash before use

Non-aquarium products can be more or less livestock safe, contacting manufacturers/suppliers for specifications is always my (conservative) preference  (and often requires some perseverance)


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## Keetchy (12 Nov 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Yes, I can only vouch for this specific product though which I have direct experience with!!


So I will just have some substrate or soil underneath this to give the plants their nutrients


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## Keetchy (12 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> If you want to go soil substate take a look at The Soil Substrate Tank, it'll be a good option for growing plants.
> And pool filter sand is a good option for capping soil. It's cheap and composed of natural quartzite grains.


Thanks tim. I will check out the link


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## Keetchy (12 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> - I’d use an Aquarium Soil such as Tropica (manufactured to order product), choosing a product that releases none to minimal ammonia (if you go this route, contact manufacturers about product specifications)



Thanks for the info. So do Tropica do soil substrate as well as granular?


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## alto (12 Nov 2019)

Tropica does “Growth Substrate”
Sera does Floredepot
Several other name brands offer similar products
Note that all of these will “cloud” and “mud” similar to whatever home version you make (most are a “mineralized” version) and should form the nutrient rich base layer beneath 8-10cm suitable fine gravel/coarse sand 
(Tropica has many “Inspiration” Layouts done in this style ... )


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## Keetchy (13 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> Tropica does “Growth Substrate”
> Sera does Floredepot
> Several other name brands offer similar products
> Note that all of these will “cloud” and “mud” similar to whatever home version you make (most are a “mineralized” version) and should form the nutrient rich base layer beneath 8-10cm suitable fine gravel/coarse sand
> (Tropica has many “Inspiration” Layouts done in this style ... )


So for best results it needs to be 8-10cm of substrate as the bottom layer then top sand/gravel on top?


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## Tim Harrison (13 Nov 2019)

A couple of cms will do. You can bank it deeper toward the back if you like. Tights or filter bags packed with gravel can also be used if you want to create higher mounds. Take a look at the Soil Substrate tutorial I linked earlier for more details. Westlands Aquatic Compost is a cheaper, and probably equally as effective, alternative to Tropica's soil.


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## Keetchy (13 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> A couple of cms will do. You can bank it deeper toward the back if you like. Tights or filter bags packed with gravel can also be used if you want to create higher mounds. Take a look at the Soil Substrate tutorial I linked earlier for more details. Westlands Aquatic Compost is a cheaper, and probably equally as effective, alternative to Tropica's soil.



Gotcha. So watching that video, only 1cm of substrate is needed then and then 3-4cm of gravel on top. The gravel can be replaced by sand cant it? Or does it need to be gravel on top of the substrate and then sand on top of the gravel?


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## Tim Harrison (13 Nov 2019)

You can use whatever you like. Although, the advantage of using a coarse grained cap is that is allows for the transference of nutrients from the water column to the soil, therefore the soil will be continually replenished. Fine sand will effectively seal the soil off from the water column. Eventually, the soil will become depleted. Which isn't a big deal if you water column dose fertz too. But it's just good horticultural practice to feed plants through both leaves and roots.
Either way I'd still water column dose fertz from the get go as well anyway. Like I mentioned all the info you need is in the tutorial linked 
P.S. imo, a couple of cms is better than 1cm.


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## alto (14 Nov 2019)

As Tim says a couple cm’s of the nutrient rich base is more typical (as I mentioned above, watch the Tropica layouts done in this style )

An upper layer of fine gravel allows some water movement and aeration of the substrate, while allowing only very fine debris to fall through

A substrate composed of fine sand is subject to development of anaerobic substrate areas (which may release toxins (that are very harmful to livestock) when disturbed) even after only a few months - by using only a thin layer of sand, sifting through sand regularly, adding sand sifting livestock etc, anaerobic pockets are unlikely to develop

A substrate composed of coarse gravel allows the most water/air movement but also quickly traps loads of debris, it’s also rather less preferred by plants 

The Aquarium Soil manufactured products tend to support good plant growth while also remaining more permeable to water/air movement - a considerable amount of R&D has gone into these products re “suitable for aquarium garden” usage. They tend to be a more consistent product over production runs, and distribution 


Products such as Pond Soils, Aquatic Composts, John Innes No 1, 3 etc are usually more diverse in their composition with various sources (for the components) for what goes into the bag - they are typically manufactured to a final product analysis of minimums/maximums 
They have not typically been developed for aquarium use and make no claims of livestock safety in such a small water volume - so use with caution and contact the manufacturer for composition details (in some other threads on this topic, dw1305 has provided some good details)

Historically, “dirted Aquariums” were set up and established for some months before addition of livestock, then livestock was added conservatively ... once a particular soil “product” has been tested a few times, one can begin to predict results


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## alto (14 Nov 2019)

- ran out of edit time above

eg, 
Tropica Layout 89

(Tropica fine gravel 0.8 - 1.2mm, 0.8 - 1.5mm etc, note the slightly irregular shape and varied particle size promotes looser packing of the substrate)


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## Tim Harrison (15 Nov 2019)

I reckon you're right about the R&D etc that goes in to dedicated aquascaping soil substrate @alto, but I'm not sure that it matters too much. I think companies have to be absolutely sure their Gucci products are safe to use, to avoid commercial disaster more than any benefit to plant growth. Satisfying the markets idea of aesthetics undoubtedly has a role to play as well; it can't be easy to market dirt at Gucci prices...

I think Tropica developed their soil in collaboration with Diana Walstad, and some years back I was asked to compare the effectiveness of their product against my aquatic compost mix but at the time I wasn't able to. It'd still be a fascinating experiment, but I'd be surprised if there was any significant difference in plant growth. There is only so much you can do to dirt...

Back in the day before I supposedly knew better, I'd regularly rescape my 50 gallon soil substrate tank and replace the old substrate with fresh soil, replant, and put the fish straight back in with no ill effects whatsoever. Back then I used UG filters as well. And I think a lot of folk did likewise too. However, I would not recommend that anyone else follow suit today.


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## Keetchy (18 Nov 2019)

@alto @Tim Harrison  thanks a lot for all the info and tips. That Tropica Layout video was very helpful as well. I think when the time comes, I will use Tropica products. Ok it might end up costing me slightly more but at least it is decent stuff.

I think the main issue I'm going to have though is the tank being at 29°C. I know most plants like it at a max of 28 right? Also my tank is live with quite a few fish so im either gonna have to lay down the substrate and gravel with the water and fish still in there (but at a low water line) or stress the fish out by removing them from the tank, keeping them somewhere while I aquascape the tank then put them back in (which will also mean trying to match the water temps in both tanks)


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## Tim Harrison (18 Nov 2019)

Aquarium gardens do discus plant collections for higher temps. Also this is worth a look too, plants for a Discus aquarium. I think you'd very much regret trying to scape your tank with water and fish in it, especially putting in soil and trying to cap it. In short it won't work, the capping material and soil will mix and you'd end up with a muddy puddle, and very unhappy and stressed fish.

If you don't have anywhere to keep the fish whilst scaping they can be quite happily housed in large storage boxes like these form IKEA for a couple of days. Just transfer the filter and keep it running and the heater etc. That way you can take your time and scape the tank properly. Your fish will be much happier and so will you with the finished scape.


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## sparkyweasel (18 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> Someone has suggested getting rid of the substrate and gravel I got cause it'll be causing issues, and replace it with base soil and top sand.


Anything more to go on? What issues and why is the substrate to blame?


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## Keetchy (18 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Aquarium gardens do discus plant collections for higher temps. Also this is worth a look too, plants for a Discus aquarium. I think you'd very much regret trying to scape your tank with water and fish in it, especially putting in soil and trying to cap it. In short it won't work, the capping material and soil will mix and you'd end up with a muddy puddle, and very unhappy and stressed fish.
> 
> If you don't have anywhere to keep the fish whilst scaping they can be quite happily housed in large storage boxes like these form IKEA for a couple of days. Just transfer the filter and keep it running and the heater etc. That way you can take your time and scape the tank properly. Your fish will be much happier and so will you with the finished scape.



Ok thanks bud. I'll check out them links. See what plants they have to offer for the higher temps.

And yeah ok, I can do the storage box option. I have a 60 litre QT tank which is running at the moment but I cant keep all the fish in that, it's far too small. But can get a storage box from IKEA. Plus I suppose now the tank is bare bottom, it will be much easier to catch all the fish. Lol.


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## Keetchy (18 Nov 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> Anything more to go on? What issues and why is the substrate to blame?


So the issues I had were 2 fish got HITH and 2 others got ulcers. I had granular substrate in the tank mixed with red gravel. I also had no clean up crew in the tank, just algae eaters (I thought they were clean up crew when I bought them). So a few people how have said uneaten food and waste have sunk through the substrate and been left there to rot. Which is now causing the issues I had with the fish.


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## Keetchy (18 Nov 2019)

@Tim Harrison just read the link you sent. I never knew lead strips couldn't be used on the plants without the plants dieing. I use lead strips on all my plants when the tank was planted cause they just get ripped out the substrate when the discus are feeding.


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## alto (19 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> think the main issue I'm going to have though is the tank being at 29°C. I know most plants like it at a max of 28 right? Also my tank is live with quite a few fish so im either gonna have to lay down the substrate and gravel with the water and fish still in there (but at a low water line) or stress the fish out by removing them from the tank, keeping them somewhere while I aquascape the tank then put them back in (which will also mean trying to match the water temps in both tanks)



Definitely remove livestock before rescaping!
While you might manage adding some of the manufactured Aquarium Soils (such as Tropica) to an aquarium with water without considerable clouding or release of excess nutrients (imagine ammonia release), this is still going to be much more stressful to fish than moving them to a quiet location 

Filipe Oliveira removes fish before completely rescaping this tank 
as he’s quick, the temporary “tank” is only needed for some hours, for longer holding time, add some sort of filter or water movement and temperature regulation 
I usually fill the bin (I use any food safe plastic bin of suitable size for the fish, sometimes setting up a couple bins depending on livestock) with 50% tank water and 50% tap water (or whatever you use for your aquarium) - then transition fish back to the 100% tap aquarium ... 
Note my tap and aquarium water are basically the same, if you’re adjusting water for the aquarium, then check parameters before moving fish 
I don’t feed fish in the temporary tank unless I’m adding a filter and doing water changes, ie, treating it like an aquarium rather than a holding tank ... obviously fish density is generally higher in the temporary tank than in the aquarium, so focus on water quality, eg, reduce temp to 27*C for more dissolved oxygen 
To minimize fish stress, keep light dim, minimal vibrations (& don’t loom over the fish re temporary bins are often placed on the floor)

After rescaping the tank, it’s often late, so I just leave the fish until next day - this allows you to recheck aquarium parameters before moving fish (maybe even another water change as there may be fines/nutrients released when planting/adjusting hardscape etc), and means moving the fish during their usual “day” cycle, and you can easily monitor fish after the move for several hours
When moving fish back to the aquarium, keep lighting dim - plants will be fine - you can even leave the lights/CO2 on after finishing the rescape, then switchover to no CO2/dim lights for the transfer day

When ordering any “discus” plant collections, I’d confirm plant species to make sure it’s all plants you want

It’s much easier to add discus to an established planted aquarium (that has been set up for discus) than to do it all in one go as you will be doing 
I’d set up the temporary “tank” so that it will be comfortable for fish for a few days
I have extra filters and heater etc so that’s easily done, most discus will be fine in a temporary bin with a sponge filter and 90% daily water changes
You don’t mention want your other fish are, I’d be inclined to house the discus separately 
Add discus back to the aquarium first, maybe even wait a day before adding the other fish


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## alto (19 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> they just get ripped out the substrate when the discus are feeding.


Plants with good root development should be quite resistant to removal, though if plants are constantly being uprooted by fish, plants can’t root properly 
- as you’re going to be planting and returning fish to tank soon after, you’ll need to use at least temporary means to protect plants 

There are some very nice discus scapes dominated by epiphyte plants attached to moveable rocks/wood


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## alto (19 Nov 2019)

Re plants and temperatures, TropIca is slightly more conservative than Flow Grow

Do you have any idea of planting/scape scheme?

Lighting?
CO2?

Discus will usually do fine at 27/28*C and this will allow your plants a bit more latitude than 29/30*C


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## Keetchy (19 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> Re plants and temperatures, TropIca is slightly more conservative than Flow Grow
> 
> Do you have any idea of planting/scape scheme?
> 
> ...


Ok I can move them to a 90 litre tank I have just found in my cupboard. Can wash it out before filling with tank water. So holding tank to be 50/50 but when filling up main tank again, fill up 100% with fresh water. Dont put the holding tank water back into the main tank???
I reckon if I start early in the day I could get it all done in a day. But I might leave them in holding tank overnight so it let's the main tank settle down a bit before adding the fish back in. I will just have to try and get all the plants in the same day so I can plant them before filling the tank up with water. I have a matured sponge filter and a spare 200w heater so that wont be a problem.

No idea on the scheme yet but I do have a few decent pieces of wood and some grey rocks. I need to look at some journals to get some ideas.

So I have an LED light which is on for 8 hours a day. I have a C02 set up with an in tank diffuser but am thinking of plumbing in a reactor to my fluval FX5 when I go back to planted.


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## sparkyweasel (19 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> So the issues I had were 2 fish got HITH and 2 others got ulcers. I had granular substrate in the tank mixed with red gravel. I also had no clean up crew in the tank, just algae eaters (I thought they were clean up crew when I bought them). So a few people how have said uneaten food and waste have sunk through the substrate and been left there to rot. Which is now causing the issues I had with the fish.


So shouldn't you be addressing the uneaten food and waste problem? I don't see how a different substrate will help. Any food left uneaten after a short time needs to be removed. And the substrate needs to be regularly syphoned over to remove waste and muck before it can work its way into the lower levels where you can't remove it so easily.
For 'clean up crew' you could consider Malaysian Burrowing Snails (aka Malaysian Trumpet Snails). As they burrow they are good at getting at any food that does make its way into the substrate despite your best efforts at removing it.


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## Keetchy (19 Nov 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> So shouldn't you be addressing the uneaten food and waste problem? I don't see how a different substrate will help. Any food left uneaten after a short time needs to be removed. And the substrate needs to be regularly syphoned over to remove waste and muck before it can work its way into the lower levels where you can't remove it so easily.
> For 'clean up crew' you could consider Malaysian Burrowing Snails (aka Malaysian Trumpet Snails). As they burrow they are good at getting at any food that does make its way into the substrate despite your best efforts at removing it.


Yeah your definitely right. The issue I had was I couldn't see the uneaten food on the substrate. The discus take a massive mouthful of beefheart, chew it up a bit then spit loads of it out. So it ends up in tiny pieces, like dust if you know what I mean. Settles in between the granular substrate/gravel and sits there because I didnt have a clean up crew in the tank. I had no corys, no snails, hardly any shrimp. And I could never get between the plants to use a gravel vac to turn over the substrate and clean it. Not without disturbing the plants anyway.
So I've been told because I had granular substrate/gravel, it made the problem worst cause waste could easily fall between it and get buried. Whereas if I had a soil underneath then more of a top sand rather than gravel on top (like a course sand, not a fine sand), then it would be harder/take longer for the waste to get through before the clean up crew come along and munch it all up.

Ok.....I can put Malaysian trumpet snails on the list too. I was also going to get corys, a crap load of ammano shrimp, and assassin snails. Can Malaysian snails go with assassin snails?


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## sparkyweasel (19 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> Can Malaysian snails go with assassin snails?


I haven't tried, but I think the assassins would eat them, as far as I know they will eat any snails. That's their main diet; some people believe they eat shrimps as well, others are not convinced about that.


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## Keetchy (19 Nov 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> I haven't tried, but I think the assassins would eat them, as far as I know they will eat any snails. That's their main diet; some people believe they eat shrimps as well, others are not convinced about that.


Ah damn. Ok. If that's the case then I will go with Malaysian snails instead of assassins. I like ammano shrimp so dont wanna get them out the tank just for assassin snails


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## alto (20 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> a crap load of ammano shrimp


yum yum said the discus 
(eventually)

What other fish do you have?

Switch the discus from beefheart (I’m not even going to get on my soapbox about this ) to Australian black worms (now available freeze dried, flake, pellet etc) 

Once introduced, if the Malasian trumpet snails are successful, you will have them forever


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## alto (20 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> Dont put the holding tank water back into the main tank???


I don’t see any reason to do so 

If you’re keen to do it, and have a suitable pump, it won’t do any harm ... though even if you put back 75litres (obviously need to do this before placing fish back in the main tank so don’t stress fish by removing too much water), that’s not a major portion of the 350litres, and given it’s already 50% tap water, that’s about 40litres of initial tank water .... so if that’s your game, much easier just to save 40l from tank water at the start and use that (especially as it will be “cleaner” than the holding tank water)
Then you can avoid stressing fish by dropping the water level dramatically in the holding tank 

I’m also less keen on returning temporary bin water to the main tank, as it likely has higher levels of stress compounds (released by fish)


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## alto (20 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> I will just have to try and get all the plants in the same day so I can plant them before filling the tank up with water


It’s so much less (person) stressful just to plan on fish being sorted out of the tank for a couple days


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## alto (20 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> So I have an LED light which is on for 8 hours a day.


tank dimensions?
LED specifications?

(Sorry for the multiple posts, but I can only “get” one Quote option in a reply box)


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## Conort2 (20 Nov 2019)

No matter what substrate you have a ‘clean up crew’ isn’t going to help greatly, siphoning is the only way to properly remove waste such as uneaten food in the substrate. I have a tank full of corydoras and hundreds of shrimp, trumpet snails and I still see food trapped down under the substrate level which remains there until I siphon it. You also have to remember adding fish to clean up will actually create more mess as you need to feed more and they also produce waste. 

Also as mentioned by Alto you’d be much better feeding freeze dried black worms, these are a much cleaner food than beefheart. Fish go mad for them and it’s a lot more natural than mammal meat.

how often were you doing water changes previously? What amount did you remove and did you vacuum the substrate? As you shouldn’t be getting fish get hith and ulcers. Wouldn’t want you to change your substrate and then for this issue to return.

cheers 

Conor


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## Keetchy (21 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> yum yum said the discus
> (eventually)
> 
> What other fish do you have?
> ...



Haha. I have 5 ammanos in there at the moment and they have grown pretty big and have survived. I know someone that keeps cheery shrimp in his discus tank and I think they are smaller than ammano.

Other fish are 10 rummeynoses, 2 Bolivian rams, 2 balloon rams, 4 torpedo barbs, 5 SAE, 5 ammano, 1 yellow phantom plec, 2 angels and 3 ottos.

So how comes you are against BH dude? The discus and all the other fish love the stuff. I make it myself from home rather than buying it from the shops. I make it with mussels, shrimp, banana, eggs, spirulina, vitamins, spinach and garlic. I also feed them freeze dried blackworm twice a day. So BH once a day then FDBW twice a day.

Yep I see your point about the holding tank water. I will just throw that away after then. Might keep 50 litres of tank water to add back after. I'll decide that on the day 

I suppose I could hold the fish in the holding tank for couple of days. No harm in that, just while the tank settles with the new aquascaping and while I gather all the plants I wish to add. I have a 90 litre plastic storage tub and a 60 litre fish tank. So I suppose I could keep the discus in the storage tub and the other fish in the 60 litre tank.

Ok so the tank is 48x18x24 and I think the LED light is discontinued cause i cant find it on the net. All i can tell you is it's a YF-LED1200A and it is 5-75w. That's all it says on the light unit


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## Keetchy (21 Nov 2019)

Conort2 said:


> No matter what substrate you have a ‘clean up crew’ isn’t going to help greatly, siphoning is the only way to properly remove waste such as uneaten food in the substrate. I have a tank full of corydoras and hundreds of shrimp, trumpet snails and I still see food trapped down under the substrate level which remains there until I siphon it. You also have to remember adding fish to clean up will actually create more mess as you need to feed more and they also produce waste.
> 
> Also as mentioned by Alto you’d be much better feeding freeze dried black worms, these are a much cleaner food than beefheart. Fish go mad for them and it’s a lot more natural than mammal meat.
> 
> ...


Hey Conor. Ok yeah that was a massive mess up on my behalf too. I never siphoned the substrate or sloshed it round to get waste out. Reason for this is I didnt want to disturb or rip up the plants while doing so. How do you siphon your substrate without disturbing your plants too much?

I feed the tank FDBW twice a day. And BH once a day. I didnt think the discus would grow fully on just FDBW which is why I feed them BH too. Everyone i know that has discus feeds BH so I just went with the majority 

So I was doing 2 WCs a week, at the worst it was 3 times every 2 weeks. And changing 40%-50% each time. As already answered, no I never siphoned the substrate 

It is looking like the diseases came from crap and waste in my substrate. Most likely down to me not siphoning/cleaning it out properly. I just didn't know how to without upsetting the plants/roots.


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## Conort2 (21 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> Hey Conor. Ok yeah that was a massive mess up on my behalf too. I never siphoned the substrate or sloshed it round to get waste out. Reason for this is I didnt want to disturb or rip up the plants while doing so. How do you siphon your substrate without disturbing your plants too much?
> 
> I feed the tank FDBW twice a day. And BH once a day. I didnt think the discus would grow fully on just FDBW which is why I feed them BH too. Everyone i know that has discus feeds BH so I just went with the majority
> 
> ...


Just don’t siphon too deep, if you do it regularly the waste shouldn’t get too deep hopefully. You can also use a turkey baster to flush dirt away from the surface. Discus can be kept in a planted tank but they’re big messy fish so you have to keep on top of the cleaning. You’ll be surprised how quick fish can turn around in clean conditions with regular water changes so hopefully you should see an improvement soon.

Good news they’re eating blackworm already. I’d ditch the beefheart if I was you. Maybe get them on a good quality pellet for that feed instead if they’ll take it. 

cheers

conor


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## Keetchy (21 Nov 2019)

Conort2 said:


> Just don’t siphon too deep, if you do it regularly the waste shouldn’t get too deep hopefully. You can also use a turkey baster to flush dirt away from the surface. Discus can be kept in a planted tank but they’re big messy fish so you have to keep on top of the cleaning. You’ll be surprised how quick fish can turn around in clean conditions with regular water changes so hopefully you should see an improvement soon.
> 
> Good news they’re eating blackworm already. I’d ditch the beefheart if I was you. Maybe get them on a good quality pellet for that feed instead if they’ll take it.
> 
> ...


What about in the middle of heavy planted sections? If the plants are close together and thick/bushy, I wont be able to get the gravel cleaner in there. Out in the open areas wont be a problem, I'll be able to get the vac on there but its just the bushy areas I'm worried about.

And ok, I can look into getting rid of the beefheart. But they're so used to eating it I dont know what I can su substitute it for that they will love to eat. I've tried flake food before and they dont even touch that.


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## Conort2 (21 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> What about in the middle of heavy planted sections? If the plants are close together and thick/bushy, I wont be able to get the gravel cleaner in there. Out in the open areas wont be a problem, I'll be able to get the vac on there but its just the bushy areas I'm worried about.
> 
> And ok, I can look into getting rid of the beefheart. But they're so used to eating it I dont know what I can su substitute it for that they will love to eat. I've tried flake food before and they dont even touch that.


That’s what the turkey master is for, to flush out all the waste in areas where you can’t reach. It then lifts it into the water column where it can be removed with your water change.

I wouldn’t bother with flake, too small for discus. Try something like tetra prima or one of the many discus pellets that are around now.


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## sparkyweasel (21 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> The discus and all the other fish love the stuff. I make it myself from home rather than buying it from the shops. I make it with mussels, shrimp, banana, eggs, spirulina, vitamins, spinach and garlic. I also feed them freeze dried blackworm twice a day.


That doesn't sound as bad as plain beefheart. Beefheart used to be a popular staple diet for Discus, but it's too rich in protein on its own and can lead to digestive and heart problems.
But it is a messy food, as you have found.


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## Keetchy (22 Nov 2019)

Conort2 said:


> That’s what the turkey master is for, to flush out all the waste in areas where you can’t reach. It then lifts it into the water column where it can be removed with your water change.
> 
> I wouldn’t bother with flake, too small for discus. Try something like tetra prima or one of the many discus pellets that are around now.


Yep ok. I'm with you now. I've definitely learnt a lot this past month, and learnt it the hard way too. I'll get myself fully equipped with what I need before going back to a planted tank.

And I think I'm gonna cut out BH after my stash has all gone. Is Brineshrimp a good replacement for it. That and some kind of Tetra pellet/crisp


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## Keetchy (22 Nov 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> That doesn't sound as bad as plain beefheart. Beefheart used to be a popular staple diet for Discus, but it's too rich in protein on its own and can lead to digestive and heart problems.
> But it is a messy food, as you have found.


Yeah this is why I ended up buying a surface skimmer cause of the amount of protein creating a grime film on the surface. And it is very messy. The discus just chew it then spit a load out after. Thinking of substituting it with brineshrimp and some kind of Tetra dry food. See how they take to that.


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## alto (26 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> Other fish are 10 rummeynoses, 2 Bolivian rams, 2 balloon rams, 4 torpedo barbs, 5 SAE, 5 ammano, 1 yellow phantom plec, 2 angels and 3 ottos.


Glancing at one of your photos, + 10 discus?

This is a pretty heavy bioload for a discus tank, especially given your feeding regime and insufficient water changes/food removal (sorry to be so blunt)
Even once you rescape, adjust diet, improve maintenance, you’ll still need to be vigilant 
(If you’re up for it, I’d rehome the larger fish - SAE, torpedo barbs (behaviour of these may stress the discus, especially in smaller tanks - in which category I’d include your 350) angels ... I suspect your discus may be having issues from a combination of less than ideal water quality plus environmental stress)


Beef heart is one of the messiest foods you can feed, while there are some discus breeders that use it, there are many that don’t; it’s best used in a bare tank where uneaten food is removed daily in combination with large daily water changes
(fish can gain weight very fast on this high protein, high fat food but there are biochemical consequences to feeding discus mammalian proteins/fats - the first observed incidence of fat deposits in fish blood vessels and around heart and internal organs was in discus given beef heart, further investigation revealed unusual types of fat molecules and modified proteins, etc)


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## Keetchy (26 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> Even once you rescape, adjust diet, improve maintenance, you’ll still need to be vigilant
> (If you’re up for it, I’d rehome the larger fish - SAE, torpedo barbs (behaviour of these may stress the discus, especially in smaller tanks - in which category I’d include your 350) angels ... I suspect your discus may be having issues from a combination of less than ideal water quality plus environmental stress)



The thing is bud I really like my barbs and SAEs. They do a great job at keeping the algae away. If I was to reduce the bio load then it'd be the rams I'd get rid of. I'm not really too keen on them. They dont do much  The barbs and SAE never seem to bother the discus. It's not like the discus dart about or act agitated when they're swimming around.

I have a mate that does the same amount of WCs if not less than me with the same amount of discus in his tank and he's had no issues. Only difference is he has a clean up crew and cleans out his sand everytime whereas I never did


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## Keetchy (26 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> Beef heart is one of the messiest foods you can feed, while there are some discus breeders that use it, there are many that don’t; it’s best used in a bare tank where uneaten food is removed daily in combination with large daily water changes
> (fish can gain weight very fast on this high protein, high fat food but there are biochemical consequences to feeding discus mammalian proteins/fats - the first observed incidence of fat deposits in fish blood vessels and around heart and internal organs was in discus given beef heart, further investigation revealed unusual types of fat molecules and modified proteins, etc)



The guy I have got all my discus from makes up his own beefheart mix. When I told him how messy mine is with the discus spitting it out into clouds, he said that shouldn't happen. His BH doesnt cloud, it holds itself together more. So this might be a way of me still being able to feed the discus and healthy diet but without the mess and consequences that follow that mess. I am getting a small pack off him to test it out at the end of this week so I'll decide on the BH then. If it still makes too much of a mess then I'll take BH out of their diet completely.


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## Keetchy (26 Nov 2019)

@alto yeah I think your right bud. I'm quite a bit overstocked 

Before rescaping the tank, I'll get rid of the 4 rams I have and some or all of the barbs and SAEs. Do you know if the SAEs and barbs are ok with just a couple of them in the tank? Or do they like to be in a big group? I'm thinking maybe keep just 2 of each instead of the 5 of each that I got at the moment.


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## sparkyweasel (26 Nov 2019)

You've got a great excuse for getting another tank or two.


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## Keetchy (26 Nov 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> You've got a great excuse for getting another tank or two.


Haha. I'd love to bud. But no room in the flat. At the moment we got the QT tank on the kitchen side  As soon as we get a house then there will be more tanks


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## Conort2 (26 Nov 2019)

Mark Keetch said:


> @alto yeah I think your right bud. I'm quite a bit overstocked
> 
> Before rescaping the tank, I'll get rid of the 4 rams I have and some or all of the barbs and SAEs. Do you know if the SAEs and barbs are ok with just a couple of them in the tank? Or do they like to be in a big group? I'm thinking maybe keep just 2 of each instead of the 5 of each that I got at the moment.


Siamese algae eaters and denisoni barbs get quite aggressive with their own kind when kept in low numbers. You’d be best off to get rid of all of them unfortunately. Denisoni can also get bloody big and are lightning fast. Maybe just keep the tetras. Discus like to be the boss of the tank and would be beneficial to have species with them that don’t add to much to the bio load or stress them out too much.

cheers

conor


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## Keetchy (26 Nov 2019)

Conort2 said:


> Siamese algae eaters and denisoni barbs get quite aggressive with their own kind when kept in low numbers. You’d be best off to get rid of all of them unfortunately. Denisoni can also get bloody big and are lightning fast. Maybe just keep the tetras. Discus like to be the boss of the tank and would be beneficial to have species with them that don’t add to much to the bio load or stress them out too much.
> 
> cheers
> 
> conor


 Hey Conor.  Yeah I've now decided to just keep discus, rummynose tetra, ammano shrimp, ottos, corys and a few small plec


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## Keetchy (28 Nov 2019)

@Tim Harrison you say to do that many WCs but as stupid as this sounds how important is that? Reason I ask is I want to use Tropica Aquasoil as my base layer when I rescape the tank but to do a 50% WC takes me 2 hours. And with working each day, I'm not going to be able to do a 50% WC daily, there's not enough hours in the day for me to do that  Will I have to rethink what base layer I'm going to use then?

I will be putting fish back in the tank a day or 2 after the aquascaping is complete


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## Tim Harrison (28 Nov 2019)

Mark I've moved your question to your own thread it seemed most appropriate 

I've done it with less water changes, as have other folk, the usual water change regime is the ideal and will get your tank off to the best start, hopefully with the minimum of problems.
Tropica AS doesn't give off so much ammonia so you may get away with less water changes, but you'll need to stay on top of your parameters, lighting, flow etc, because you may have less wriggle room.

As for adding critters back in a day or two later, I wouldn't recommend it but if you've a mature filter running you should be okay. But I've never kept discus so I don't know for sure...


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## Keetchy (28 Nov 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Mark I've moved your question to your own thread it seemed most appropriate
> 
> I've done it with less water changes, as have other folk, the usual water change regime is the ideal and will get your tank off to the best start, hopefully with the minimum of problems.
> Tropica AS doesn't give off so much ammonia so you may get away with less water changes, but you'll need to stay on top of your parameters, lighting, flow etc, because you may have less wriggle room.
> ...


Thanks bud. I do 2 x 50% WCs a week anyway so I'll stick to that but like you said, just check my ammonia levels daily just to be on the safe side.

And the filter will be matured already bud. I will be taking fish out of main tank and putting them in a holding tank, drain main tank down, do my aquascaping, fill up with water, turn filter back on and let it run over night. Check tank the following morning and if all good, put fish back in.


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## alto (29 Nov 2019)

Any way to speed up that 2h water change? that’s a lot of time for just draining/refilling 150litres 

I’ve changed out tank substrate and replaced with new Tropica Aquarium Soil (I generally use the Powder version but expect there’s little difference in terms of possible ammonia release), rescaping etc, and usually return fish 1-3days later depending - have not had any issues 
I suggest filling tank that first evening with just tap water - the plants won’t care - add water conditioner for filter bacteria etc, then do a *large water change before* adding fish as that first water fill will have various dust etc from scaping/planting (also add any “saved water”at this stage)

I use Seachem’s Ammonia Alert as it continually monitors, and will do a 50% water change if I see any trace ammonia
(FWIW I’ve only observed ammonia when scape was set up Day 1, fish added Day 1, filter with stored used media (it had been almost a year) ... this was an impulse buy of rare fish I’d found while casually browsing at lfs and my tank was definitely a better environment even with these challenges)
While I’ve seen reports of ammonia released by new Tropica Soil, I’ve never measured anything beyond “trace” 

In terms of plants, you should be fine with Tropica 90Day App

In terms of discus, I’d do water changes as frequently and as large as possible 

You mention keeping various  plecos with discus - this is discouraged as they are messy fish (ie larger bioload on water quality) and they may develop a discus-slime-habit where they attach to discus (I was sceptical but have observed it several times in shop display tanks, molly/platy will also occasionally harass discus, constantly grazing on their slime coat)
- consider the source of your discus ulcers?
(note that Otocinclus have also been observed grazing on discus) 

With just the 11 discus in a 300litre tank you may reach a balance where weekly water changes are sufficient, with tankmates you mention, I’d hesitate to miss a 50% water change twice weekly - if you need to skip a water change, drastically reduce feeding (eg alternate days - and omit the BH (which is extremely “messy” in terms of uneaten remains but also only partially digested feces))


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## Keetchy (29 Nov 2019)

@alto I wish there was a way to speed it up bud. I do my WC through my power shower and if I increase the flow coming out of the shower to speed the filling up process, the shower overheats cause of where it reduces down to 6mm pipe going into the HMA filter. It only takes me an hour to clean filter, siphon water out and wipe down all glass and heaters. The other 90mins is filling up 

Yeah my plan is to have fish in holding tanks, main tank emptied, aquascaped and filled back up with my usual WC water in the first day. Then I will do a 50% WC on day 2, then either add fish end of day 2 or on day 3, depending on how the tank looks and what the ammonia level is at.

Plants I am going to chat with Aquarium Gardens about the best plants to get once we have worked out a design for the tank.

I try to stick to 2 WCs a week, but it all depends on what I'm doing that week. Sometimes I dont have time to do 2 a week. When we move into our own house and I have a better WC system set up, and reduce the time for WC, I'll be able to do 2 a week easily. But for now it's very hit and miss. And I keep a close eye on the discus and so far (touches wood) I have never seen the plec or any of the ottos on the side of the discus. As soon as I do see this, they will be out of the tank.


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