# low tech with gravel



## ste_v5 (19 Sep 2015)

Hello
Just starting with a roma 125 and the t8 lights what came with it.
I'm just using pea gravel as I like the look of it, will this be ok or is it a must to use soil underneath it?
If it's ok could I just use root tabs?
I just want a healthy tank full of plants which plants will do best in this gravel? 
I'm not adding co2 and could I get away with not adding frets? 
Thanks


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## foxfish (19 Sep 2015)

Ha Ha everybody wants a healthy tank full of plants with no added C02, ferts & no maintenance !
I don't know the answer myself.
I think you are asking a big ask, plants need certain things to flourish.
It does seem that adding a soil base really helps, perhaps read up a bit about that....


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## ste_v5 (19 Sep 2015)

So if I just added frets say once a week would this be ok?
I was thinking of gettin amazon swords maybe crypts and vas? Would these be ok with root tabs or the added frets aswell


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## Edvet (19 Sep 2015)

Gravel will work OK, but you'll need ferts. Either as soil underneath or in the water. Remember the lower the light intensity the slower the growth, the smaller the need for ferts. But it's never zero.


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## Jose (19 Sep 2015)

Plants need ferts. Lack of ferts can cause algae. You can try root tabs but ideally you want to dose once a week macros and micros. Another option is to use a nutrient rich substrate or soil underneath the gravel. They all have pros and cons. So up to you. I would dose the water column.
Sorry just noticed Edvet had said more or less the same.


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## ste_v5 (19 Sep 2015)

Thanks everyone
So will it be ok to dose once a week micros and macros? 
Also does anybody have a link or guide to weekly dosing? 
I don't really want to pull all of the gravel out now just to put it back in haha
Where's the best place to get the ferts from


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## ste_v5 (19 Sep 2015)

If I was to redo with soil underneath does this eliminate the need for me to add ferts weekly? Does the soil take care of that


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## Edvet (19 Sep 2015)

Soil could work, see the work of Diana Walstad (https://www.google.nl/#q=diana+walstad) and our own Troi:
(http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/)


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## Tim Harrison (19 Sep 2015)

What is a soil substrate?
Put simply, a soil substrate consists of mineral particles, organic matter, precipitated inorganic matter and microorganisms. A far simpler definition is ‘*the stuff in which plants grow*’. This definition emphasizes the biological importance of soil, and I think it is this fundamental importance that is so often* overlooked* by many aquarists...From my tutorial http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-soil-substrate-or-dirted-planted-tank-a-how-to-guide.18943/ 

I don't subscribe to the paradigm that fertz don't cause algae...of course they do...they feed algae just as much as they do higher plants...hence the need for additional carbon and frequent and substantial water changes...even Amano understood this; it was central to his Nature Aquarium concept.

The advantage of soil is that the nutrients are locked up in the substrate where only the plants you want to grow can utilise them - not algae - it's common sense. 

TBO I'm always baffled when folks try their hand at a low-energy tank without using soil


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## PARAGUAY (19 Sep 2015)

You can definetely have  a good planted tank with just gravel. Consider the plants though use easy plants,stems like egeria ,hyg.polysperma .amazon swords and.Java ferns ,Java Moss tied to stones or wood.T8 lighting is fine for this set up,Agree with Edvet a good quality fertiliser would be essential. like Tropica Premium or similar  I would dose daily though.Crypts would be fine but then you may need root tablets.Troi s tutorial on substrate is like Edvet says is a good place to start if going for a soil substrate


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## Jose (19 Sep 2015)

Ive had low tech tanks with very high nutrients in the water and 0 algae. Maybe I just didnt trigger it. Anyways you can just add some ferts to the water once a week and forget. Dose 1/10th of ei or so.


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## Tim Harrison (20 Sep 2015)

I'll qualify my statement above. I've also had tanks with high nutrient levels without algae but they've always had a large plant biomass and been biologically stable, and biologically stable tanks are incredibly robust. In tanks that aren't so stable a build up of organics can trigger algae and once that happens adding fetrz can exacerbate the problem.

But as we all know it's about balance and that's perhaps a little more difficult for the beginner to achieve at first so using soil on its own, is a good option since it gives much more wriggle room and a greater chance of success.

A decent soil mix on its own (no additional fertz or carbon) can sustain good plant growth for a relatively long period, even under high-light; although I wouldn't recommend high-light over a low-energy tank especially for someone just starting out.

Later if your plants start showing signs of nutrient deficiency a low dose fertz regime, like Jose mentions above, is a good option particularly if it's coupled with Darrel's Duck-weed Index.


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## Jose (20 Sep 2015)

Yes troi,  but I see some drawbacks for a newbie when using a rich substrate.
1 is the starting phase. You need to do many water changes and newbies should know this.
2 is if using soil. This can be very messy and mess up the tank specially when moving plants around.
3 it can be expensive
4 Most people asking this question have already set up their tank.

I just think its easier and more algae proof to start with a gravel tank and adding all nutrients once or twice a week. This id just my experience. But I agree that if a rich substrate is used in a correct way it can be the best method.


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## ste_v5 (20 Sep 2015)

Right guys I've just bought some John innes no3, I am going to empty the gravel then put the soil in.
So all I need to do is put the soil in then add the gravel back on top?
Should I leave a gap bear the front just so I can't see soil with a layer of gravel on top.
Also the soil I've bought states on the bag that it releases nutrients for 6 weeks after this should I start a low dosing regime?
Thanks everyone


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## Tim Harrison (20 Sep 2015)

Jose said:


> Yes troi,  but I see some drawbacks for a newbie when using a rich substrate.
> 1 is the starting phase. You need to do many water changes and newbies should know this.
> 2 is if using soil. This can be very messy and mess up the tank specially when moving plants around.
> 3 it can be expensive
> ...



Absolutely there is more than one route to success and I suppose they all have pros and cons. However, none of the above need necessarily apply to the use of soil. 
Although it's often recommended to keep up the water changes in a new tank, it's not necessary, I've had great results without and very few water changes thereafter over several years. 
I'd recommend a soil retainer/gravel tidy between the soil and capping substrate, this allows the movement of plants with no/minimal disturbance.
I find soil cheaper and less hassle than fertz. 
And I'm not sure that the combination of gravel and fertz is any better at preventing algae...I've often found the opposite to be true, but all our tanks are different, and what works for one won't for another.  
And certainly for tanks already set up, with just gravel, fertz are really the only option...but IME soil is still best


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## Tim Harrison (20 Sep 2015)

ste_v5 said:


> Right guys I've just bought some John innes no3, I am going to empty the gravel then put the soil in.
> So all I need to do is put the soil in then add the gravel back on top?
> Should I leave a gap bear the front just so I can't see soil with a layer of gravel on top.
> Also the soil I've bought states on the bag that it releases nutrients for 6 weeks after this should I start a low dosing regime?
> Thanks everyone


Yep to the first two questions, a la my tutorial...if you're worried about disturbing the soil when planting use a soil retainer made out of something like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001P3SPIU?keywords=Gardman Greenhouse Shading Material&qid=1442755185&ref_=sr_1_fkmr1_1&sr=8-1-fkmr1 or a gravel tidy...but it can work fine without.
As for fertz dosing - it's really a matter of personal preference, I'd suggest that it's not always necessary since soil should provide enough nutrients for several months/years...just keep an eye on your plants for deficiencies. If you want floating plants it may become necessary to dose like Jose suggested.

Edit: below Walstad Nature Scape - no fertz and no added carbon...just soil


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## thomas.bham (20 Sep 2015)

I use to have 60l tank run without any fertilisers co2 with gravel. I had no problem no algaes
I used tap water for water change very soft.
I had a few messy fish with I guest produced enough waste/frerts for plants.
Only problem is that you are quite limited with types of plants you can grow due low light level which shouldn't exeed 0.3w/L


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## Tim Harrison (20 Sep 2015)

I've found that with a high plant biomass and low nutrient levels in the water column it is possible to increase the light intensity and get relatively high growth rate without encouraging algae, (higher light can reduce the CO2 compensation point), and it can also increase the list of plants that will grow in your tank. 
However, there is less wriggle room, and successfully growing different species/varieties of plants also depends on other parameters.


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## ste_v5 (20 Sep 2015)

I have some of that sheet but I think it's for blocking weeds in the garden would that be ok? I can take a picture to show you I think the roots might struggle to get through though


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## Tim Harrison (20 Sep 2015)

The mesh I've posted a link to is for greenhouse shading, and has about a 2-3mm gauge if I remember rightly. IME roots don't have a problem penetrating that.


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## dw1305 (21 Sep 2015)

Hi all, 





Troi said:


> .....had a large plant biomass and been biologically stable, and biologically stable tanks are incredibly robust.


I subscribe to this mantra as well. "_Good things come to those who wait"._

cheers Darrel


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## Newbiedoobydo (21 Sep 2015)

Troi said:


> Yep to the first two questions, a la my tutorial...if you're worried about disturbing the soil when planting use a soil retainer made out of something like this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001P3SPIU?keywords=Gardman Greenhouse Shading Material&qid=1442755185&ref_=sr_1_fkmr1_1&sr=8-1-fkmr1 or a gravel tidy...but it can work fine without.
> As for fertz dosing - it's really a matter of personal preference, I'd suggest that it's not always necessary since soil should provide enough nutrients for several months/years...just keep an eye on your plants for deficiencies. If you want floating plants it may become necessary to dose like Jose suggested.
> 
> Edit: below Walstad Nature Scape - no fertz and no added carbon...just soil


 I think I'm in love with this tank!


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