# Microworm culture



## Martin steele (6 Nov 2019)

Hi i have had some success with the goldfish breeding project. They are hungry creatures i have been starting them of on spirulina algae and then moving them onto microworm. The only problem i am having with the Worms is when the culture kiks in it's great you can scrape the Worms of the side of the container and feed them to the hungry fry.However after a day or two the culture begins to stink of vinager and you know it's time to cook up some more oatmeal.Q is there a way to prolong these essential cultures ,i thought adding some crushed egg shells to the oatmeal might help to alliviate the problem by tacking away some of the acid they seem to pickle them selves in.Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Regards martinsteele1959@gmail.com


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## tam (6 Nov 2019)

I've been using mashed potato and the culture lasted about 6 weeks.


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## dw1305 (6 Nov 2019)

Hi all,





Martin steele said:


> and you know it's time to cook up some more oatmeal.


You don't need to cook the oat meal. I think this will make the cultures last a lot longer.

I use Coleslaw type pots, I just punch a couple of holes in the lid.

I put a dollop of the old culture into the new pot, and then put a fairly shallow layer of rolled oats in (cheapest source is usually Lidl or Aldi), wet it and give it a stir. I leave about a third of the original culture in the pot and just add more oats to it.

I leave it over night, and the next morning adjust the wetness by adding more water, or more oats. 

When the culture is running normally it gets wetter and I just add more oats, I keep on doing this until the culture starts to go drier and more yellow, and then I re-culture. Usually that happens when the pot is about 1/3 full.

You get a bit of a worm boom before this happens and they end up all over the lid etc. which is a good indication of when to re-culture. I don't think that oat based cultures tend to smell very much, mine just have a slight yeasty smell, if they smell alchoholic I sub-culture.

When the pots/cultures get really scuzzy I start again.

cheers Darrel


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## Martin steele (6 Nov 2019)

tam said:


> I've been using mashed potato and the culture lasted about 6 weeks.


Hi Tam and thank you is that just straight mash potatoes no milk or fat added.I will give it a go .


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## Martin steele (6 Nov 2019)

Hi Darryl thank you for the advice. Do you use milk in the oatmeal or yeast or spirulina. Mine stinks very strogly of vinager in fact it smells just like aquarium sealant.
Regards Martin steele


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## dw1305 (6 Nov 2019)

Hi all,





Martin steele said:


> Do you use milk in the oatmeal or yeast or spirulina.


No, I just use Oats, when you sub-culture the worms bring the yeast with them. The oats are just a substrate for the yeast, the nematodes eat the yeast.

If you add yeast you get a burst of microworm production, but then the cultures crashes (possibly because of the alcohol production?)

I've used the <"same method for at least the last ten years">, and I've never lost my culture since I first bought it.

Have a look at <"Live food cultures"> as well, I keep quite a few different invertebrates as live food/tank janitors.

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (6 Nov 2019)

I do much the same as Darrell, except I use boiling water to wet the oats, - no more cooking than that gives. I was told it kills any micro-organisms that might compete with the yeast in the culture.
I use the cheapest oats, they are not over-processed and have nothing added.
I seed a new culture when the old one is two months old, the old one usually last another month or so before it goes manky.


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## Martin steele (6 Nov 2019)

Hi sparkweasel why do my cultures stink like silicone rubber.


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## tam (7 Nov 2019)

Martin steele said:


> Hi Tam and thank you is that just straight mash potatoes no milk or fat added.I will give it a go .



Powdered mash you get in packets, just mixed with tank water. I add a tiny pinch of yeast on top and then 1-2 a week. I've only been running them about 3 months though so not saying that's the best option - there is a smell but only if you stick your nose in and sniff it's not over powering.


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## sparkyweasel (7 Nov 2019)

You asked if people are adding milk, - are you using it? 
Can you describe your method?


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## Martin steele (7 Nov 2019)

Yes i cook up some porridge with milk and let it go cold then i i add a little sugar and yeast and some spirulina then i add a dolop of culture from an old culture set it down for a few days and it's away for a week or ten days then it crashes stinking of acitic acid.


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## tam (8 Nov 2019)

I think you might be making too fancy porridge - milk and sugar sounds like a good recipe for stinky!


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## sparkyweasel (8 Nov 2019)

Milk goes bad pretty quickly. Sugar probably accelerates the growth of the yeast and brings the culture to an end quicker. There's also sugar in milk.
Sugar plus yeast makes alcohol, alcohol exposed to air turns to vinegar, hence the smell. 
Try it with just oats and water, you should get on a lot better.


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## Martin steele (8 Nov 2019)

Thanks sparkweasel.
Regards martinsteele1959@gmail.com


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## Martin steele (8 Nov 2019)

tam said:


> I think you might be making too fancy porridge - milk and sugar sounds like a good recipe for stinky!


Thanks Tam
Regards martinsteele1959@gmail.com


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## Costa (9 Nov 2019)

@sparkyweasel 

I have a culture of White Worms Enchytraeus albidus that i want to grow without needing to add food every day per David Ramsey's YouTube advice

So you cook the oat with water, let it cool, sprinkle some yeast and then place in your cultures? How much do you put in and do you use bread or some other base?

Thank you so much


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## sparkyweasel (9 Nov 2019)

No bread, just oats, the oats are the base. But that is for microworms, _Panagrellus redivivus._
For whiteworms you can use potting compost for them to live in, and make a couple of depressions to put the food in. You can feed them bread or oatmeal. You don't need to feed every day, maybe every two or three days. The food will go mouldy if you leave it too long.


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## sparkyweasel (9 Nov 2019)

For the microworms, mix enough boiling water with the oats to make a thick paste. Let it cool, then put it in the container. I put it about 3cm deep, the container is deeper, about 5cm, so the microworms can crawl up the sides above the oats. Then you can harvest them my wiping them off the container wall. You can use plastic food tubs, make some small holes in the lid for air to flow in and out. They don't need to be big containers, maybe 15cm, you can get a lot of microworms from that size.
Then you add a small amount ( 10ml ) from the old culture (or a starter culture from some-one else if it's your first time). After two weeks, start another culture, then you have a back-up if you have any problems.


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## Costa (9 Nov 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> No bread, just oats, the oats are the base. But that is for microworms, _Panagrellus redivivus._
> For whiteworms you can use potting compost for them to live in, and make a couple of depressions to put the food in. You can feed them bread or oatmeal. You don't need to feed every day, maybe every two or three days. The food will go mouldy if you leave it too long.



Thank you,I use bread, yogurt and yeast powder but it goes mouldy on the next day, maybe a sign of too much moisture in the soil? I've been told to use cooked rice but at the moment I am following Ramsey's instructions


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## sparkyweasel (9 Nov 2019)

I haven't tried rice, but it sounds like a good idea. It might last longer before it goes mouldy.
Are you getting lots of worms? If it's too wet or too dry, they don't breed as fast. If you want to experiment, you could set up another culture, keep it a little less moist and see if it still produces a good supply of worms. That way you won't lose your original culture if the experiment is not a success.


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## BarryH (30 Jan 2020)

Getting interested in trying this after a kind offer of some starter culture. Where do I need to keep the pots with the culture in, warm, cold, light, shady? Any help would be really appreciated.


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## dw1305 (30 Jan 2020)

Hi all, 





BarryH said:


> Where do I need to keep the pots with the culture in, warm


Just somewhere reasonably warm. Mine live in a kitchen cupboard. 

If I'm away from home for more than a couple of weeks I put a pot in the fridge (labelled as <"not hummus">). I got that information from @Edvet. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2020)

Now I'm successfully hatching brine shrimp for my mid-water fish, I want to try and culture some of these mirco-worms for my Pygmy Cory's on @dw1305 Darrel's recommendation.

I have a couple of initial; questions: 

1. So I need a container or two with air holes in. I have some old maggot tubs from my fishing kit I can use - but given these need to be kept inside the house in the warmth, how does one stop the microworms escaping out of the air holes?
2. How do I go about seeding the culture at the start - do I need to order an initial batch of microworms to pre-populate? if so, can anyone recommend any sources?


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## BarryH (10 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I have a couple of initial; questions:
> 
> 1. So I need a container or two with air holes in. I have some old maggot tubs from my fishing kit I can use - but given these need to be kept inside the house in the warmth, how does one stop the microworms escaping out of the air holes?
> 2. How do I go about seeding the culture at the start - do I need to order an initial batch of microworms to pre-populate? if so, can anyone recommend any sources?



Not too sure about seeding the culture but regarding the air holes, after watching a couple of YT videos, all they did was add a bit of filter wool to the lid covering the hole and kept this in place with a bit of tape.

There are some good round containers in Tesco for this purpose and, at the minute, in their "specials" isle, Aldi have really good sets of plastic boxes.


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## dw1305 (10 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> do I need to order an initial batch of microworms to pre-populate?


You do, plenty of sellers of ebay normally, or I always have spare cultures. 





BarryH said:


> There are some good round containers in Tesco for this purpose


I use old coleslaw or hummus pots and just prick a few small holes. If the worms start covering the lid and coming out of the holes you need to re-culture. 

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2020)

BarryH said:


> Not too sure about seeding the culture but regarding the air holes, after watching a couple of YT videos, all they did was add a bit of filter wool to the lid covering the hole and kept this in place with a bit of tape.
> 
> There are some good round containers in Tesco for this purpose and, at the minute, in their "specials" isle, Aldi have really good sets of plastic boxes.



Thanks Barry - just wated a few videos, and I've seen the filter floss trick, thanks. I'll check Tesco's if I can get past the pasta and toilet roll panic buyers!


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, You do, plenty of sellers of ebay normally, or I always have spare cultures. I use old coleslaw or hummus pots and just prick a few small holes. If the worms start covering the lid and coming out of the holes you need to re-culture.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel.

Looking around on the internet, I read that the microworms can often be a little small (smaller than baby brine shrimp) - is that correct? 

I've read that Grindal worms might be an alternative option, are a little lower maintenance, and are a little larger (10mm when adult) than the microworms - have you ever cultured those? Would they be too  large for the Pygmy Cories?


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## dw1305 (10 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> I read that the microworms can often be a little small (smaller than baby brine shrimp) - is that correct?


It is.

The cultures I have at the moment has very small "Vinegar eel" sized worms, so they may actually be "Banana Worms" (_Panagrellus nepenthicola_). I used to keep separate Banana Worm and Micro worm cultures, but Banana Worms are really prolific and a little bit smaller, so there isn't really any requirement to keep both.





Wookii said:


> I've read that Grindal worms might be an alternative option, are a little lower maintenance, and are a little larger (10mm when adult) than the microworms - have you ever cultured those? Would they be too large for the Pygmy Cories?


Yes I have Grindal Worms as well and the Pygmy Cories are keen on them.

I've never been very successful at keeping <"Cereal mites"> out of the cultures. I think @Edvet is still using <"Seramis as a worm culturing medium">, which may be a better option.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (11 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Yes I have Grindal Worms as well and the Pygmy Cories are keen on them.
> 
> I've never been very successful at keeping <"Cereal mites"> out of the cultures. I think @Edvet is still using <"Seramis as a worm culturing medium">, which may be a better option.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel. Is the Seramis a better option than the coconut fibre I see mention elsewhere?


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> Thanks Darrel. Is the Seramis a better option than the coconut fibre I see mention elsewhere?


I don't know, you would need @Edvet. I've always used ordinary potting compost (similar to coir), which is fine, but difficult to keep mite free. There may be advantages to coir, cleaning scrunchies and/or foam, I've just never tried them. 

The main issue I've had with them (other than the mites) is that they are a bit <"prone to crashing">, where you lose the entire culture. Because of that I keep four separate one litre ice cream cartons, rather than one larger culture. 

I've got better at recognising the signs of an imminent crash. These are:

Grindal Worms everywhere, all up the side of the carton and over the lid, often apparently a lot more Grindal worms than the culture actually contained. 
<"Red worm"> "Canaries" on the compost surface.
Compost wetter than normal.
cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (11 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I don't know, you would need @Edvet. I've always used ordinary potting compost (similar to coir), which is fine, but difficult to keep mite free. There may be advantages to coir, cleaning scrunchies and/or foam, I've just never tried them.
> 
> The main issue I've had with them (other than the mites) is that they are a bit <"prone to crashing">, where you lose the entire culture. Because of that I keep four separate one litre ice cream cartons, rather than one larger culture.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, I might have to make do with running two cartons. I only have small number of small fish, and they also get fed brine shrimp regularly, so I don't want to be generating more worms than I need for 2-3 small feeds a week.

One final question, what is the best food to give the worms? I see that most guides seem to suggest dried dog or cat food, but then I have also seen other places suggest using dedicated fish food since it will add more appropriate nutrition to the worms gut, and be more beneficial for the fish?


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> I see that most guides seem to suggest dried dog or cat food, but then I have also seen other places suggest using dedicated fish food since it will add more appropriate nutrition to the worms gut, and be more beneficial for the fish?


Mine <"mainly get rolled oats">, I used to use "instant oat cereal", but grinding up <"oats is a lot cheaper">. I use a pestle and mortar. I had one anyway, if I hadn't I would have carried on with the "ready brek" type instant porridge cereal.

I've had the same culture for the last ~12 years, so they do fine on oats as a staple diet. Oats are <"nutritionally quite good"> anyway.

I tried them on dry biscuit cat food, but they didn't seem to eat that as readily, and it smelled. I add a bit of cooked vegetable, but I assume that this is mainly eaten by the earthworms.

Because you feed your fish BBS anyway I wouldn't be too concerned about the GrIndal worms diet. I feed a lot of live food to my fish as well and I'm assuming that this covers their nutritional requirements. In the winter the fish get a bit more dry food a long with the worms.

cheers Darrel


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## Simon Cole (11 Mar 2020)

@Wookii  We use Wainwrights dry cat food. Some dry cat foods will work and others really do not. The cultures crash. It's always good to read somebody thinking about gut loading. That was why I chose it over fish food. 
Darrel - I never thought of rolled oats - what a good idea.


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## dw1305 (11 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Simon Cole said:


> I never thought of rolled oats - what a good idea.


I'm pretty sure that someone suggested it to me when I originally got the Grindal Worm culture. I think I got them from Mark Breeze (Apistogramma keeper "microman") originally, but it may have been the advice on the KilliFish Web site <"Culturing Grindal Worms">. 

<"Caudata.org"> is another useful source for live food tips.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (12 Mar 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> @Wookii  We use Wainwrights dry cat food. Some dry cat foods will work and others really do not. The cultures crash. It's always good to read somebody thinking about gut loading. That was why I chose it over fish food.
> Darrel - I never thought of rolled oats - what a good idea.



Thanks Simon - what was your reason for choosing the Cat food over the fish food - just for avoiding culture crashes?


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## Simon Cole (12 Mar 2020)

High quality dry cat food seems to have superior nutritional content over fish food. 
Basically it comes down to how the products are deliberately formulated and tested, but also the fact that quality is a major factor driving industry competition. So I feel more assured.
The 30 essential amino acids and essential fatty acids (fats carry soluble vitamins D, E, A and K) are usually known and included. 
Water soluble B vitamins (Thiamine, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine, Pantothenic Acid, Niacin, B-12) and vitamin C are typically added. 
Minerals are also added, but there is no industry standard for this component. 
Price is also a major factor. 
Some dry cat foods are better at not crashing the culture than others. Typically you would have 4 tubs of worms in a sealed box to stop the mites from getting in, so if one crashes, you can carry on.  
When I look at the nutritional content of fish food it feels like more of a guessing game.


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## Wookii (13 Mar 2020)

Right, so my starter culture arrived from eBay today, and my coconut coir and tubs arrived from Amazon, so two cultures are set up already. I have ordered some Seramis too, but it’s going to take two weeks to arrive (hence the coconut as a stop gap). When that arrives I’ll set up a third tub.






I couldn’t resist testing some of the worms with the fish, as there were quite a few left in the delivery bag. They went down a treat - the tiny little Chilli Rasbora went the craziest for them, but two tiny worms and their little bellies were bulging!

The Cory’s were a little slow off the mark, but seemed to be hunting around the substrate for them. Do grindal worms bury themselves in the substrate? When I looked for the ones I’d dropped in I couldn’t really see any?


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## Simon Cole (13 Mar 2020)

Yes they do. Flat bottom tanks are always better, but shrimp will usually help to pick them up. My pygmy corydoras would route through the sand for them, but they do burrow in within about 5 minutes. Drowning the worms first is a slightly better option. In fact I typically scrape them off the coir and collect into a pot of water before feeding.  Welcome to the culture club


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## Wookii (13 Mar 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> Yes they do. Flat bottom tanks are always better, but shrimp will usually help to pick them up. My pygmy corydoras would route through the sand for them, but they do burrow in within about 5 minutes. Drowning the worms first is a slightly better option. In fact I typically scrape them off the coir and collect into a pot of water before feeding.  Welcome to the culture club



Thanks Simon. How long do they typically take to drown? I’d read that microworms can take 10 minutes but couldn’t find anything specifically on grindal worms.

So I assume those lost in the substrate so far are going to drown and rot now!  . . . I’m amazed nowhere on the internet that I read during my research mentioned that!


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## Simon Cole (13 Mar 2020)

About 30 minutes. Another option would be a feeding dish and pipette. 
They're not going to rot - you should have a few detritus worms in the substrate; something will find them. 
A fantastic investment my friend.


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## Wookii (13 Mar 2020)

Simon Cole said:


> About 30 minutes. Another option would be a feeding dish and pipette.
> They're not going to rot - you should have a few detritus worms in the substrate; something will find them.
> A fantastic investment my friend.



Thanks - yeah I think the feeding dish is going to be the way forward - I don’t always have enough time to prep half an hour in advance (three kids with busy evening activity schedules!).

I do have a nice dish with a tube that I use for the shrimp currently, so I can use that:


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