# What is the problem?



## Ugur (19 Jan 2017)

Hi all. 

I have a problem in my 200 liters tank and I need your help. 

Dimensions: 113x50x45(h)
Light: 4x39 w t5 
Filter: Eheim pro 4 350
Substrate: JBL aquabasis, aquaclay
Co2: 7/24 on 

Everything is well but some plants have been turned into white. This problem occured 2 weeks ago. 

Fertilization 

No3: 10 ppm ( 3 times in a week ) 
Po4: 5 ppm ( 3 times in a week ) 
K: 5 ppm ( 3 times in a week )
Fe: 2 ppm ( 3 times in a week ) 
Trace: 10 ml ( 3 times in a week ) 

%70 water changing in a week 

I have nearly 30 kinds of plants but only 5-6 plants have this problem. They are pogostemon erectus, pogostemon helferi, staurogyne repens, staurogyne porto velho, cuba. I think i give enough iron. I think it wouldn't be iron deficiency. I am not able to measure my ph, kh, gh etc. What do you think about this problem?




uk1 by ugurbingoll, on Flickr



uk2 by ugurbingoll, on Flickr



uk3 by ugurbingoll, on Flickr


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## ian_m (20 Jan 2017)

What is you lighting period, I hope very short 4 hours ? with that light power (unless well established).

What is your Mg levels and Mg dosing ?

I assume you are dosing ferts one and Fe/trace on alternate days ?


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## dw1305 (20 Jan 2017)

Hi all,
It definitely looks like a deficiency of iron (Fe), but you have a large iron dosing. 





Ugur said:


> Fe: 2 ppm ( 3 times in a week )


 Deficiencies of micro-elements often relate to ratios of elements and availability, rather than simple amounts.
Which chelator do you use? and  what is the geology of where you live? I see you come from Turkey so is it limestone? 





Ugur said:


> I am not able to measure my ph, kh, gh etc.


 Can you get a conductivity/TDS meter? The TDS of the tap water would give us some idea.

cheers Darrel


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## kadoxu (20 Jan 2017)

Ugur said:


> No3: 10 ppm ( 3 times in a week )
> Po4: 5 ppm ( 3 times in a week )
> K: 5 ppm ( 3 times in a week )
> Fe: 2 ppm ( 3 times in a week )
> Trace: 10 ml ( 3 times in a week )



This may seem like a stupid question, but sometimes these small interpretation things may make a huge difference, so just to clarify... when you say 3 times a week, what do you mean:

2ppm per dose x 3 times a week = *6ppm a week*
or

*2ppm a week* : 3 doses = 0.67ppm per dose

It's important to know at least your water's Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) and PH when dealing with Iron deficiencies.


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## Ugur (22 Jan 2017)

ian_m said:


> What is you lighting period, I hope very short 4 hours ? with that light power (unless well established).
> 
> What is your Mg levels and Mg dosing ?
> 
> I assume you are dosing ferts one and Fe/trace on alternate days ?



I am not able to measure my mg level. I don't give mg. We have a small amount of mg in our local tap water.

My lighting period is 7 hours.

My fertilization schedule

Sunday Water changing
Monday 10 ppm N, 5 ppm P, 5 ppm K
Tuesday 10 ml trace, 2 ppm fe
Wednesday 10 ppm N, 5 ppm P, 5 ppm K
Thursday 10 ml trace, 2 ppm fe
Friday 10 ppm N, 5 ppm P, 5 ppm K
Saturday 10 ml trace, 2 ppm fe



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> It definitely looks like a deficiency of iron (Fe), but you have a large iron dosing.  Deficiencies of micro-elements often relate to ratios of elements and availability, rather than simple amounts.
> Which chelator do you use? and  what is the geology of where you live? I see you come from Turkey so is it limestone?  Can you get a conductivity/TDS meter? The TDS of the tap water would give us some idea.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I am not sure but i think i use gluconate chelator. I started to use fe dtpa %7 yesterday.

I am from Turkey. The geology of where i live is limestone. My tap water also has lime. I can't get a tds meter these days. But my tap water's tds is 50.2, ph is 7.3.



kadoxu said:


> This may seem like a stupid question, but sometimes these small interpretation things may make a huge difference, so just to clarify... when you say 3 times a week, what do you mean:
> 
> 2ppm per dose x 3 times a week = *6ppm a week*
> or
> ...



I mean


2ppm per dose x 3 times a week = *6ppm a week*
I appreciate for your helps. Btw i am sorry for my english. I hope i was able to explain my problem properly.


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## dw1305 (23 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





Ugur said:


> I started to use fe dtpa %7 yesterday.


That should make a difference, but it will take a while to show, because iron isn't mobile within the plant and only the new leaves will be green.

Ferric gluconate (C12H22FeO14) complexes iron, rather than chelating it, this means that the Fe+++ ions are more likely to come out of solution. FeDTPA is a better option in harder water.



 

I might add some magnesium (Mg) as well, it won't do any harm. "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) ~ 10% Mg should be readily available.

cheers Darrel


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## kadoxu (23 Jan 2017)

Ugur said:


> I appreciate for your helps. Btw i am sorry for my english. I hope i was able to explain my problem properly.


Don't worry, your English is perfect!


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## Ugur (23 Jan 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That should make a difference, but it will take a while to show, because iron isn't mobile within the plant and only the new leaves will be green.
> 
> Ferric gluconate (C12H22FeO14) complexes iron, rather than chelating it, this means that the Fe+++ ions are more likely to come out of solution. FeDTPA is a better option in harder water.
> 
> ...



I hope my new solution will make a difference. I will search epsom salts. Thank you again. 



kadoxu said:


> Don't worry, your English is perfect!



Thank you so much. I will inform you about news.


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## xim (23 Jan 2017)

Ugur said:


> I am not sure but i think i use gluconate chelator. I started to use fe dtpa %7 yesterday.
> 
> I am from Turkey. The geology of where i live is limestone. My tap water also has lime. I can't get a tds meter these days. But my tap water's tds is 50.2, ph is 7.3.



My experience about 7% Fe-DTPA was not so good. I tried making the all-in-one fert with it and it precipitated out wihin a few hours. I thought my pH was not low enough. So I tried using white vinegar instead of water just to see if it helped. It didn't, still got the precipitation. It's a shame since Fe-EDTA did fine. 7% Fe-DTPA might do better at higher pH than EDTA but it seemed it failed on Phosphate.

Then I tried 11% Fe-DTPA and it worked great. No sign of precipitation at all, even being left for 4 weeks.

With the 7% I used to dose 0.162 PPM of Fe daily and still got the chlorosis occasionally. Now with the 11%, it is just 0.1 PPM Fe daily and I still get better result.

So, it looks like not all chelating agents are equal even among the same type.


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## Ugur (23 Jan 2017)

xim said:


> My experience about 7% Fe-DTPA was not so good. I tried making the all-in-one fert with it and it precipitated out wihin a few hours. I thought my pH was not low enough. So I tried using white vinegar instead of water just to see if it helped. It didn't, still got the precipitation. It's a shame since Fe-EDTA did fine. 7% Fe-DTPA might do better at higher pH than EDTA but it seemed it failed on Phosphate.
> 
> Then I tried 11% Fe-DTPA and it worked great. No sign of precipitation at all, even being left for 4 weeks.
> 
> ...



Thank you for sharing your experience. I have Fe-DTPA %7 right now. I will use this solution for a while and i will observe the results. 



dw1305 said:


> Hi all, That should make a difference, but it will take a while to show, because iron isn't mobile within the plant and only the new leaves will be green.
> 
> Ferric gluconate (C12H22FeO14) complexes iron, rather than chelating it, this means that the Fe+++ ions are more likely to come out of solution. FeDTPA is a better option in harder water.
> 
> ...



I look that my tap water's values. It includes 21.9 (mg/l) Mg. Do you think i should add Mg? Does it have benefit?


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## ian_m (24 Jan 2017)

Ugur said:


> It includes 21.9 (mg/l) Mg. Do you think i should add Mg? Does it have benefit?


Yes. which is why is part of the EI dosing schedule. Ignore your water company report, which is not the same as your tap water. Dose as Magnesium Sulphate/Epsom salts. It is cheap, 25Kg can be got for £15 in garden centres, available in most chemists and used as an exfoliator and foot soak.

Mg deficiency symptoms can appear similar to iron, pale/white/yellow leaves. In fact Mg deficiency can prevent uptake of iron, leading you down the path of thinking you have iron deficiency. If Mg is added leaves will generally recover as unlike iron Mg is mobile in the plant.


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## dw1305 (24 Jan 2017)

Hi all,





Ugur said:


> It includes 21.9 (mg/l) Mg. Do you think i should add Mg?





ian_m said:


> Yes. which is why is part of the EI dosing schedule.


 There should be enough magnesium, but like "ian_m" says it isn't something you can really over-dose and it should be easily and cheaply obtainable. Adding some more (if this is already enough) won't hurt.

cheers Darrel


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## Ugur (24 Jan 2017)

ian_m said:


> Yes. which is why is part of the EI dosing schedule. Ignore your water company report, which is not the same as your tap water. Dose as Magnesium Sulphate/Epsom salts. It is cheap, 25Kg can be got for £15 in garden centres, available in most chemists and used as an exfoliator and foot soak.
> 
> Mg deficiency symptoms can appear similar to iron, pale/white/yellow leaves. In fact Mg deficiency can prevent uptake of iron, leading you down the path of thinking you have iron deficiency. If Mg is added leaves will generally recover as unlike iron Mg is mobile in the plant.





dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> There should be enough magnesium, but like "ian_m" says it isn't something you can really over-dose and it should be easily and cheaply obtainable. Adding some more (if this is already enough) won't hurt.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thank you for infos. I will order MgSO4. I hope i will solve the problem.


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## Soilwork (25 Jan 2017)

This happened to me a only a few weeks ago.  Particularly affected the staurogyne repens.  My tap water is very low in iron and magnesium (well everything really) I only mixed half magnesium in my EI solution.  After suspecting a micro toxicity (which I now rescind) I'm sure it was Mg deficiency.  My plant always seemed to perk up when dosing the macro solution.


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## Ugur (15 Mar 2017)

Thank you all for your help. I solved  the problem of iron deficiency. Dtpa fe worked very well. But i have a new problem for a while. Some of my plants have GSA. Staurogyne repens, staurogyne porto velho, alternanthera reineckii mini, cuba, utricularia especially have this problem. Other plants are going well. 

I try to give co2 at maximum level. Co2 is opening 2 hours before the lights on and closing 1 hour before the lights off. While co2 is turning off, the color of indicator is nearly yellow. There is a photo about indicator. Moreover, you can see how co2 spreads all over the tank in video. If i give more co2, fishes and shrimps are affected negatively. 

Now 3x39 watt t5 is on for 7 hours. 

Fertilization scheme
K 20-30 ppm 
No3 15-20 ppm 
Po4 6-7 ppm
Fe 1-2 ppm
Trace 20 ml Easylife profito

I gave 13 ppm po4 for a while but GSA cannot be solved. Do you think 13 ppm po4 is necessary for my tank? 

Especially cuba isn't healthy. What do you think about the problem? I am waiting for your help. 



yyyaaa by ugurbingoll, on Flickr



dddsssaa by ugurbingoll, on Flickr



wwssaa by ugurbingoll, on Flickr



weasdasd by ugurbingoll, on Flickr



sadasdasd by ugurbingoll, on Flickr


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