# NEED SOME HELP



## Lee iley (3 Jan 2019)

Hi guys, 

Could do with a little help please. I keep loosing cherry shrimp and not sure why.
I have had them since early July started with 10 and now have over 100. But these last 2 weeks I have lost about 15 I got a pair of rams last week and they gobbled a few so took them bk. And swapped them for 20 black neons. But I am still find 1 or 2 dead a day still. The last 2 i have lost had a white band on their back. I also wake upto to some that are already half eaten so not sure what the cause of death was to them ones. 3 days ago I did a 80% water change and after that I added 20 ember tetras and 4 orange ottos since then I have lost about 6 shrimp. I also have  2 pieces of cuttle bone in there for months now for calcium could these need changing?

Temp I have just increased to 26c 
GH 6.5
PH  7.2
TDS 102.4 

Cheers lee


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## tam (3 Jan 2019)

Your TDS is quite low... makes me wonder what your GH is? Do you water change regularly? If you usually do smaller amounts the hardness may have built up overtime and the big water changes lowered it.


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## Konsa (3 Jan 2019)

Hi
The cuttle bone will just dissolve if it is still there don't need changing.26°C is a tad warm for shrimp any reason why U increased the temperature ?Are U positive  that your fish are not hunting the shrimp?
Regards Konsa


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## dw1305 (3 Jan 2019)

Hi all, 





tam said:


> Your TDS is quite low..


It is, I found that they definitely do better in harder water.

cheers Darrel


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## Lee iley (3 Jan 2019)

I havnt seen any of my fish hunt them. I have black tetras ember tetras and neon tetras. I do a 50% water change every week on the tank. The reason for increasing the temp was because it was at 24c so I just moved it up a notch and today it's reading 26c. Should I drop it down to 24c again. They are breeding like crazy still I have baby shrimp every were. What should my tds be at? When I do my tds the water report says my conductivity is 160 so I multiply that by 0.64 and gives me 102.4 is this correct and for my gh my hardness Clark is 8.14 so I divide that by 1.64 and get 6.5 is this also correct? If so how do I increase my TDS? 

Cheers lee


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## Konsa (3 Jan 2019)

Hi
Your fish should be ok in 24°C.I keep all my tanks 22-23°C .
I will drop it back to 24.If it has worked so far why change it?I personally dont like tampering with water parameters.I just keep my water clean and thats about it.
Have U done any other changes apart from introduction of more fish?
Your tank TDS is influenced by everything you add to the tank(ferts ,food,not inert rock,fish waste....) u cant get that from your water report as it is not constant.U need to get a TDS pen  to get accurate readings.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (3 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Your fish should be ok in 24°C.I keep all my tanks 22-23°C .
> I will drop it back to 24.If it has worked so far why change it?I personally dont like tampering with water parameters.I just keep my water clean and thats about it.
> Have U done any other changes apart from introduction of more fish?
> ...


I have just ordered a tds pen from Amazon. I never mess with my water parameters. I haven't done anything different apart from add the new fish. I did an 80% water change rather than a 50% change, due to me loosing shrimp. Ferts all's I add is tnc complete the daily recommended dose. I don't use co2. I have dropped my temp bk down to 24 for some reason I thought 24 was to low. Does tds matter for cherry shrimp? 

Cheers lee


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## Konsa (3 Jan 2019)

Hi
Also before rushing to change things have in mind that U lost few while  the RAMs were in and there were some probably injured or stressed that didn't die instantly and are going   now.It is possible that the big 80% waterchange have forced few to molt out of timing and that dint go very well........If U have breeding and lots of babies all is good.Just keep an eye on the tank and keep us posted.
Loads of people keep their tanks at lower temp(20-22°C) for better gas exchange.
The cherries are hardy U dont need ideal TDS for them but they are thought to prefer harder water(more minerals and  TDS 250+)
If U keep losing shrimp instead of one massive WC do few smaller 25% or so.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (3 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Also before rushing to change things have in mind that U lost few while  the RAMs were in and there were some probably injured or stressed that didn't die instantly and are going   now.It is possible that the big 80% waterchange have forced few to molt out of timing and that dint go very well........If U have breeding and lots of babies all is good.Just keep an eye on the tank and keep us posted.
> They cherries are hardy U dont need ideal TDS for them but they are thought to prefer harder water(more minerals and  TDS 250+)
> Regards Konsa


Thank you for the reply. I though a 80% change would benefit. How could I raise my tds? Is my gh ok the way I is or do I need to raise this also? I thought by having cuttle bones in my tank that would help the gh or am I wrong? 

Cheers Lee.


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## Konsa (3 Jan 2019)

Hi
Its not about how to increase it but to add the correct minerals to do so.U can increase it with higher fert dosing too.Anyway lots of shrimp mineral products out there.Maybe someone will advice but on 400l tank may break the bank a little.The cuttle bone is more for calcium suplement the shrimp to pick from ,it wont affect your water mineral content much.
I had cherries breeding like wild fire in soft water with CO2 and low PH,Kh and GH some years ago.Now I have moderately hard water  low tech tanks and am yet to see rapid breeding going on.I had them in tanks with TDS from 250 to 450 wich didn't make any difference.Ottos beed in the tank but shrimps keept throwing the eggs and only babies I was getting was the ones I hatched myself from the collection of the eggs after they throw them.Now I am getting some breeding going on  after I stopped adding ferts at all to my shrimp tank.
My point is it is normal to lose few shrimp now and then.U are having good colony going on.Don't panic yet and enjoy your tank
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (3 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Its not about how to increase it but to add the correct minerals to do so.U can increase it with higher fert dosing too.Anyway lots of shrimp mineral products out there.Maybe someone will advice but on 400l tank may break the bank a little.The cuttle bone is more for calcium suplement the shrimp to pick from ,it wont affect your water mineral content much.
> Regards Konsa


Calcium is for the moulting isn't it? TDS is all the solids in the water what does this do to help shrimp? And GH higher the GH harder the water does the TDS and GH do the same thing for the water the higher the TDS is the harder the water also? What is more important TDS or GH for the shrimp.


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Hi guys a little update I have lost another shrimp this morning. My TDS PEN came today and tested water straight from the tap it is reading 155ppm not done tank yet. But I have a load of new plants to go in tomorrow so will test then.


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## Konsa (5 Jan 2019)

Hi
U can take reading now anyway and one tomorrow too does not hurt to know.I will advice to take readings before and after U change water too.Dont  forget If U disturb substrate to do decent waterchange too.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> U can take reading now anyway and one tomorrow too does not hurt to know.I will advice to take readings before and after U change water too.Dont  forget If U disturb substrate to do decent waterchange too.
> Regards Konsa


Thanks konsa what could be the cause of me loosing my shrimp all of a sudden?


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## Konsa (5 Jan 2019)

Hi
Im not quite sure.I had a period of that too.
But it all sorted itself with time.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Thanks konsa you from the UK?


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (5 Jan 2019)

Check your nitrate levels at the end f a week before the next water change to, it is very easy to overdose complete liquid ferts...


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## Konsa (5 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> Thanks konsa you from the UK?


Yes Im in Preston area 
Regards Konsa


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (5 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Yes Im in Preston area
> Regards Konsa


Snap!


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Yes Im in Preston area
> Regards Konsa


Snap lol.


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## Lee iley (5 Jan 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Check your nitrate levels at the end f a week before the next water change to, it is very easy to overdose complete liquid ferts...


I did have a water test kit but guys on here were saying they are rubbish and to get rid. So what else could I use to test my nitrate levels. I do a 50% water change once a week to reset all nutrients ready for the week ahead.

Cheers lee


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## Konsa (5 Jan 2019)

Hi
the 50% WC should be enough to sort your ferts excess .High nitrates are dangerous only when they are the smoking gun of previous Ammonia spike that went unnoticed.The once added from ferts are harmless.Its a large tank and your bioload seems not much for it.As overdosing ferts is concerned I  was dosing my low tech tanks for long time with full EI and had no shrimps deaths from that.Infertility(struggling to keep the eggs and trowing them constantly) maybe but deaths definitely not..Many on here do high ferts and shrimps with no problems too. I did have few deaths from (dirt)soil substrate going bad and few due to doing large WC(70-80%) with large TDS fluctuations.U need to take the TDS before and after WC.If there is big gap between the 2 figures may be good to do 2 small 25% instead.Cherry shrimps while hardy they still prefer stability .I feed mine spirulina tabs,Hikari shrimp and crab cuisine, almond leaves,mulberry leaves,Blanched (nettle ,kale,spinach...)I tried cuttle bone,mineral stones,calcuim bentonite clay and ...in past to get the colony strong and breeding but seems Im getting slowly there only by being more carefull about  the %of water Im changing at a time as current shrimp tank is only tiny (22l )and is easy for things to fluctuate dramatically due to low volume.I dont currently add ferts to the tank as trying alternative metod of growing plants on sand and Californian black worm poop only
In all my other tanks cherries unfortunately  got eaten
If U are in my area and your TDS from tap is similar to mine (~160) I imagine your tank should be arround 250-330 (depending on your fert addition)that is in the good range for cherries anyway.U need to get that reading.lol
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> the 50% WC should be enough to sort your ferts excess .High nitrates are dangerous only when they are the smoking gun of previous Ammonia spike that went unnoticed.The once added from ferts are harmless.Its a large tank and your bioload seems not much for it.As overdosing ferts is concerned I  was dosing my low tech tanks for long time with full EI and had no shrimps deaths from that.Infertility(struggling to keep the eggs and trowing them constantly) maybe but deaths definitely not..Many on here do high ferts and shrimps with no problems too. I did have few deaths from (dirt)soil substrate going bad and few due to doing large WC(70-80%) with large TDS fluctuations.U need to take the TDS before and after WC.If there is big gap between the 2 figures may be good to do 2 small 25% instead.Cherry shrimps while hardy they still prefer stability .I feed mine spirulina tabs,Hikari shrimp and crab cuisine, almond leaves,mulberry leaves,Blanched (nettle ,kale,spinach...)I tried cuttle bone,mineral stones,calcuim bentonite clay and ...in past to get the colony strong and breeding but seems Im getting slowly there only by being more carefull about  the %of water Im changing at a time as current shrimp tank is only tiny (22l )and is easy for things to fluctuate dramatically due to low volume.I dont currently add ferts to the tank as trying alternative metod of growing plants on sand and Californian black worm poop only
> In all my other tanks cherries unfortunately  got eaten
> If U are in my area and your TDS from tap is similar to mine (~160) I imagine your tank should be arround 250-330 (depending on your fert addition)that is in the good range for cherries anyway.U need to get that reading. I should be similar to you then as I live in preston. I feed my shrimp algae tablets, flake, granules. Then they eat all the biofilm in the tank also. Oh and cuttle bone that's in the tank aswel. My bioload isn't big for my tank size. 100/150 cherrys 10 armano shrimp. 3 orange corys 15 neon tetras 20 black tetras and 20 ember tetras. My tank is 400 litres. I will test my water tomorrow before and after the water change and will see the difference.
> ...


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (6 Jan 2019)

Test the nitrate as well just to see for me... I've struggled with it in the past and believe it killed my Amano shrimp so let me know the values... would be good even if only to rule this out. I'm personally not convinced that nitrates in ferts are ok compared to natural nitrates... I'm talking about them being in high concentrations over 150 or 200ppm...


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## Konsa (6 Jan 2019)

Hi
If it needs be and U dont have tests.Get a sample to a LFS they can test it for U.Although I took mine Macro solution to one of mine to get tested for PO4 and they  found it was no PO4 in it .Wich I suspected .Then thinking it was my tank water they adviced me promptly that my NO3 were high and if I have algae I should bala bla... I was not listening at that point.Its a good fish store with marine section and as long as fish is concerned they are very good but with plants they are pretty rubbish.
Regards Konsa


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## foxfish (6 Jan 2019)

The thing is .. do you think your LFS has suitable testing equipment and a technician to operate it?
It would be a huge investment for them!
I would think (like my LFS) they use the same grade test kits that you can buy in their shop?


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## Konsa (6 Jan 2019)

Hi

In my case it was more to get a reading of any sort just to confirm any PO4 present not to get any acurate figures.For that I do trust the test kits.I dont test anything in my tanks.My water parameters are  what they are. Iam not one to fiddle about with them.
I very much prefer fiddling with my plants and keeping it simple.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> The thing is .. do you think your LFS has suitable testing equipment and a technician to operate it?
> It would be a huge investment for them!
> I would think (like my LFS) they use the same grade test kits that you can buy in their shop?


My lfs store which is maidenhead in broughton preston. Just use the dip tests which I don't think is any good. I did used to test my water every week with my own master kits but again I think they were a waste of time also. 
Cheers lee


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Test the nitrate as well just to see for me... I've struggled with it in the past and believe it killed my Amano shrimp so let me know the values... would be good even if only to rule this out. I'm personally not convinced that nitrates in ferts are ok compared to natural nitrates... I'm talking about them being in high concentrations over 150 or 200ppm...


Because I have no kit to test any more. And I don't really trust the lfs readings. What else could I do apart from the 50% water change which will reset everything? Do plants remove nitrates from the water? 
Cheers lee


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

I should be similar to you then as I live in preston. I feed my shrimp algae tablets, flake, granules. Then they eat all the biofilm in the tank also. Oh and cuttle bone that's in the tank aswel. My bioload isn't big for my tank size. 100/150 cherrys 10 armano shrimp. 3 orange corys 15 neon tetras 20 black tetras and 20 ember tetras. My tank is 400 litres. I will test my water tomorrow before and after the water change and will see the difference.  Thanks lee


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (6 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> Because I have no kit to test any more. And I don't really trust the lfs readings. What else could I do apart from the 50% water change which will reset everything? Do plants remove nitrates from the water?
> Cheers lee


Plant do remove them but they may not be keeping up with the production by fish depending on if you have mostly slow growing plants or not. LFS test will be fine to rule in or out whether it's a problem currently. Just need to know if it's very high or not. Just working through process of elimination... you could do more water changes to bring the levels down but given what else has been said here, you would want to cut fertilisation down IF this is a problem...


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## Konsa (6 Jan 2019)

Lee iley said:


> Because I have no kit to test any more. And I don't really trust the lfs readings. What else could I do apart from the 50% water change which will reset everything? Do plants remove nitrates from the water?
> Cheers lee


Hi
Yes plants remove Nitrate,they will use whatever N source they have including Ammonia.The floating plants in particular are very good at that as not CO2 limited.Darrel is always preaching about how usefull they are and I couldn't agree more.U need  to make sure your ferts are covering the rest of the nutrients so the uptake is not limited by other nutrient but this will show first in the floters anyway.
U are very welcome to have some Frogbit and Dwarf watter lettuce if U want.I bin loads every week.
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Yes plants remove Nitrate,they will use whatever N source they have including Ammonia.The floating plants in particular are very good at that as not CO2 limited.Darrel is always preaching about how usefull they are and I couldn't agree more.U need  to make sure your ferts are covering the rest of the nutrients so the uptake is not limited by other nutrient but this will show first in the floters anyway.
> U are very welcome to have some Frogbit and Dwarf watter lettuce if U want.I bin loads every week.
> Regards Konsa


Yes please thank you konsa. I dose tnc complete everyday. Also plants are in tropica soil with root tabs that I put in bk in July. Would all this be enough nutrients? 

Thanks lee


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

I don't use co2 so would that be ok for the floaters.

Thanks lee


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## Konsa (6 Jan 2019)

Hi
You should be ok for nutrients.The floaters dont need CO2 injection as they have access to atmospheric whopping 400ppm.
Do U drive?
Im off work till Wednesday so anytime convinient  for U is ok with me.Will pm my address. 
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> You should be ok for nutrients.The floaters dont need CO2 injection as they have access to atmospheric whopping 400ppm.
> Do U drive?
> Im off work till Wednesday so anytime convinient  for U is ok with me.Will pm my address.
> Regards Konsa


Hi mate yes I do drive I will pop round say Tue after work if that's ok. Not sure what time I can work till 7ish.


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> the 50% WC should be enough to sort your ferts excess .High nitrates are dangerous only when they are the smoking gun of previous Ammonia spike that went unnoticed.The once added from ferts are harmless.Its a large tank and your bioload seems not much for it.As overdosing ferts is concerned I  was dosing my low tech tanks for long time with full EI and had no shrimps deaths from that.Infertility(struggling to keep the eggs and trowing them constantly) maybe but deaths definitely not..Many on here do high ferts and shrimps with no problems too. I did have few deaths from (dirt)soil substrate going bad and few due to doing large WC(70-80%) with large TDS fluctuations.U need to take the TDS before and after WC.If there is big gap between the 2 figures may be good to do 2 small 25% instead.Cherry shrimps while hardy they still prefer stability .I feed mine spirulina tabs,Hikari shrimp and crab cuisine, almond leaves,mulberry leaves,Blanched (nettle ,kale,spinach...)I tried cuttle bone,mineral stones,calcuim bentonite clay and ...in past to get the colony strong and breeding but seems Im getting slowly there only by being more carefull about  the %of water Im changing at a time as current shrimp tank is only tiny (22l )and is easy for things to fluctuate dramatically due to low volume.I dont currently add ferts to the tank as trying alternative metod of growing plants on sand and Californian black worm poop only
> In all my other tanks cherries unfortunately  got eaten
> If U are in my area and your TDS from tap is similar to mine (~160) I imagine your tank should be arround 250-330 (depending on your fert addition)that is in the good range for cherries anyway.U need to get that reading.lol
> Regards Konsa


Just done a 50% water change and also added loads more plants at the same time. So I disturbed the soil. TDS reading before water change was 178ppm. TDS reading after water change 164ppm not a big difference. Could this be because of the soil been disturbed due to planting new plan


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (6 Jan 2019)

Definately could be... check in the morning!


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## Konsa (6 Jan 2019)

Hi
It is normal to get TDS increase in your tank before the waterchange.Fish food,ferts,fish poop ... everything   add to it.
U actually dont need the actual figures.They only matter if U start with RO and add minerals yourself.
In your case U have tap water at TDS 155.Your tank water is TDS 178 before waterchanges  and 164 ( this is your  base line)after wich is not a big difference.That is good.That means that your water chemistry is fairly constant and sign of clear water.U know for a fact that the shrimp are in stable water and that is not why U are getting deaths.
There are other things to consider:
Disease for example.Have U noticed any black rusty spots on their bodies, green fungus where they keep their eggs,anything out of the ordinary.
May be look into DIY gh booster to add a bit more minerals to the water let say U add after WC till U hit 250 TDS in your tank and thats your dose.
Try a bit more varied diet to make sure they get everything they need.May be some blanched kale,spinach,nettle or dried leaves form time to time,spirulina tabs.(I get mine 100%spirulina tabs from Herons on eBay 25g for £3.They hold shape very well and boost shrimp colours.I find them good food. )
I am sorry that I cant be more specific  but its hard for mee too as everything in your tank seems ok.
Also are the old shrimps that U find dead or juveniles too?Do they seem active like they should be (especially on feeding time)or just letargic and hiding all the time?
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (6 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> It is normal to get TDS increase in your tank before the waterchange.Fish food,ferts,fish poop ... everything   add to it.
> U actually dont need the actual figures.They only matter if U start with RO and add minerals yourself.
> In your case U have tap water at TDS 155.Your tank water is TDS 178 before waterchanges  and 164 ( this is your  base line)after wich is not a big difference.That is good.That means that your water chemistry is fairly constant and sign of clear water.U know for a fact that the shrimp are in stable water and that is not why U are getting deaths.
> ...


All the shrimp seem very active like usual and at feeding time they all come out to feed. The deaths some have been adults the odd one been smaller ones. The odd shrimp does have slight darker patches on them like browny colour I will try and get a pic tomoz after work when lights come on. No green fungus were the eggs are. I look for that all the time. Some have white chaulky lines down there back. I will try some different foods. When you say nettle leafs is that nettles I can just find in a field? What can I buy to boost my GH? 
Thanks you have been a great help. 

Cheers Lee


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## Konsa (6 Jan 2019)

Hi
Yes thats  Nettle from the field.
Just pick it from somewhere away from roads and other sort of pollution sources.I pick some.Then blanch and freeze half and Dry half in a plastic food tub with lid so they dont crumble.
Try searching for DIY GH booster or someone else will have to advice as Im not into those sort of things.Like I said before I don't fiddle with water chemistry.I imagine it to be some sort of Ca,Mg compounds composition .
Do U know your GH and KH from water report?

Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Yes thats  Nettle from the field.
> Just pick it from somewhere away from roads and other sort of pollution sources.I pick some.Then blanch and freeze half and Dry half in a plastic food tub with lid so they dont crumble.
> Try searching for DIY GH booster or someone else will have to advice as Im not into those sort of things.Like I said before I don't fiddle with water chemistry.I imagine it to be some sort of Ca,Mg compounds composition .
> ...


My GH is 6.5 and kh is the same isn't it? 

Cheers lee


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## Konsa (7 Jan 2019)

Hi Lee
Have a look here:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/all-about-water-hardness.4869/
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/water.htm
Regards Konsa


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## Lee iley (7 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi Lee
> Have a look here:
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/all-about-water-hardness.4869/
> http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/water.htm
> Regards Konsa


Thanks mate I have read this a while back, funny how you forget things. So basically kH doesn't matter really. Just GH does and it tells me how I can rise my GH if I wish to. 

Cheers Lee


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