# Choosing Aquarium Plants For Soft And/Or Hard Water



## jaypeecee (26 Mar 2020)

Hi Folks,

I very recently got myself a copy of Diana Walstad's book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_. In this book, Diana Walstad discusses plants that are suitable for soft vs hard water. Plant requirements on plant labels may specify lighting, temperature and CO2 requirements. But, they don't appear to say if a plant is suitable for soft and/or hard water. Tied in with water hardness is acidity/alkalinity. My understanding is that soft water in natural habitats is usually acidic (pH less than 7.0) and hard water in natural habitats is alkaline (pH greater than 7.0).

Where can I get a list of aquarium plants that includes recommended water hardness?

JPC


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## dw1305 (26 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> Where can I get a list of aquarium plants that includes recommended water hardness?


My guess woul be that most of the plants that are commonly sold by non-specialist shops (<"Tropica Easy Section">?) etc. are selected partially because they aren't too bothered about water hardness.

I think Diana Walstad lists plants that can use bicarbonate as a carbon source? In that case they should all do well in harder water, if they can't they are more likely to struggle.

There are a few threads on the site. Have a look at <"Windowsill nature"> & <"Windowsill Nature pt 2."> for plants that do well in hard water. 

cheers Darrel


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (26 Mar 2020)

I won’t get into the debate on how important water hardness is for plants etc and I also won’t vouch for how accurate this site I’m about to link to is but you can search for plants by recommended water hardness on here:
https://en.aqua-fish.net/plants/


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## jaypeecee (26 Mar 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I won’t get into the debate on how important water hardness is for plants etc and I also won’t vouch for how accurate this site I’m about to link to is but you can search for plants by recommended water hardness on here:
> https://en.aqua-fish.net/plants/



Thanks, Matt.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (26 Mar 2020)

Hi Darrel,

Thanks for your reply.

Will get back to you again tomorrow.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (27 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I think Diana Walstad lists plants that can use bicarbonate as a carbon source? In that case they should all do well in harder water, if they can't they are more likely to struggle.



Hi Darrel,

Yes, Diana Walstad does indeed list a selection of plants that can, and can't, use bicarbonates. It would appear that some plants prefer softwater, acidic conditions whilst others prefer hardwater, alkaline conditions. If that's the case, I want to ensure that I choose my fish and plants accordingly. As I'm starting afresh with this tank and I'll be using remineralized  RO water, I can tailor my water properties to suit. It seems that some plants can use bicarbonates as a source of carbon instead of being wholly dependent on CO2. The following makes it clearer what's going on. I know you've referenced this several times but I include it here for convenience.





This is all very interesting stuff.

JPC


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## dw1305 (27 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> As I'm starting afresh with this tank and I'll be using remineralized RO water, I can tailor my water properties to suit.


I'd just choose some plants you like the look of. The chances are that the majority of them will be fine in hard, or soft, water. 

If there are plants you particularly want? Have a look and see if there is any reference to  special requirements in regards of pH or hardness. 

<"If there isn't?"> I'd try about <"4dGH/dKH">.

As an example I've found that my rainwater (~120 microS and ~4dKH) is too soft for _Vallisneria, _but it grows well in our tap water (~18dKH), even with a low nutrient addition, so this looks definitely like a hardness requirement.

We also have a lot of <"_Rotala_ threads"> where the plants are showing clear signs of  iron induced chlorosis, and I would take that as a pretty good indication that _Rotala rotundifolia_ is much happier in softer water. 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (28 Mar 2020)

Hi Darrel,



dw1305 said:


> If there are plants you particularly want? Have a look and see if there is any reference to special requirements in regards of pH or hardness.



But, where can I find this pH and hardness information? If sources don't mention pH or hardness, I can't automatically assume that pH and/or hardness are unimportant. Been there, done that, got the 'T' shirt.



dw1305 said:


> <"If there isn't?"> I'd try about <"4dGH/dKH">.



I run my tanks at 4dKH or slightly above this figure. 4dGH is very soft water but it's a possibility.



dw1305 said:


> As an example I've found that my rainwater (~120 microS and ~4dKH) is too soft for _Vallisneria, _but it grows well in our tap water (~18dKH), even with a low nutrient addition, so this looks definitely like a hardness requirement.



Yes, V. spiralis is a plant on which Diana Walstad carried out an experiment. This plant was shown to distinctly dislike acidic soft water!



dw1305 said:


> We also have a lot of <"_Rotala_ threads"> where the plants are showing clear signs of iron induced chlorosis, and I would take that as a pretty good indication that _Rotala rotundifolia_ is much happier in softer water.



Thanks for the link, which I'll check out a bit later. That sounds like the kind of information that I am trying to find. I still consider myself a beginner with aquatic plants - despite having been growing them with some success over the last few years. I can't understand why it's so difficult to obtain all the information needed to get off to a good start. I have had many failures with aquatic plants but it's not through lack of trying.

JPC


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## dw1305 (28 Mar 2020)

Hi all,
A lot of members have hard water. @ian_m, @Zeus. @Tim Harrison etc. may be able to make suggestions? I've always used rainwater in the tanks, so I'm not the best person to ask.  

I use the "_three strikes and you're out_" rule for plants both for the garden and aquarium, they have to cope with what their given. If I really like a plant, and I think it should grow, it gets a maximum of three chances. <"_Romneya coulteri"> _is the one that really annoys me. Just up the road it grows with magnificent abandon, even coming up through the pavement, in our garden it just dies.

That is partially why I have such a limited range of plants, the ones I still own have to have grown reliably with a certain amount of benign neglect.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (28 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> But, where can I find this pH and hardness information?



Hi Darrel & Everyone,

I may have just answered my own question:

https://dennerle.com/en/service/plant-database

JPC


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## Zeus. (28 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I use the "_three strikes and you're out_" rule for plants both for the garden and aquarium, they have to cope with what their given. If I really like a plant, and I think it should grow, it gets a maximum of three chances.



I copy Darrel, if I like the plant try it...... some dont even get two chances


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## Tim Harrison (28 Mar 2020)

I'm the same, as both Darrel and Karl. I pretty much choose plants to suit the conditions in my garden and aquarium. If they're determined not to grow I usually give up after a couple or three attempts,

As far as soft or hard water plants go, most plants couldn't care less. Maybe some will be easier to grow in soft water and others will perhaps look a bit better. Conversely, some plants may do better in hard water because they can synthesise carbon from bicarbonates, plants like vallis, crypts, anubias and some mosses etc.

At the end of the day though if I really like a plant I usually ignore other folks/experts opinions and try it anyway. Half the time they're just plain wrong or have confused cause and effect. I've lost count of the times plants have thrived or died when and where they "shouldn't" have.


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## Zeus. (28 Mar 2020)

Take Bolbitis Heuelotii

Bolbitis comes from West Africa, a fern with beautiful, transparent green leaves, 15-40 cm tall and wide. When planting, do not cover the rhizome because it will rot, and it is best to plant Bolbitis heudelotii on a root or stone. Keep the plant in position with fishing line until it has gained a hold. Easy to propagate by splitting the horizontal rhizome.
Supply of CO2 will considerably enhance the growth, which is only optimal in soft, slightly acidic water.

So popped some in my little crowded tank you can just make it out among the Anubis




Poor light poor CO2 forget to add ferts most of time, yet its growing fine, infact it looks better than in my main tank


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## sparkyweasel (28 Mar 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> I usually ignore other folks/experts opinions and try it anyway. Half the time they're just plain wrong or have confused cause and effect. I've lost count of the times plants have thrived or died when and where they "shouldn't" have.


That's a good plan. The important thing is; don't let your plants and fish read the books.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (29 Mar 2020)

As you guys know I have only low energy systems, plants like bolbitis also grow well for me when they shouldn’t - as do bulb plants such as aponogeton crispus and nymphaea lotus which supposedly need medium light. There are plants I’ve not been successful with though that I probably ‘should’ be able to grow.. cardamine lyrata grows but never lasts very long and rotala sp. have never really done well either.


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## dw1305 (29 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> I have only low energy systems, plants like bolbitis also grow well for me when they shouldn’t


<"_Bolbitis heudelotii">_ is also a <"good grower for me"> low tech., low nutrient. 

cheers Darrel


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## Onoma1 (29 Mar 2020)

I first saw Staurogyne Repens in one of the Green Machine videos and most see it as an easy plant, however, it just doesn't seem to grow in my tanks. I have always put this down to it not thriving in soft water.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (29 Mar 2020)

I believe it takes a long time to get going and to adapt to submerged growth... I don’t think I have it long enough when I tried it...


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (29 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, <"_Bolbitis heudelotii">_ is also a <"good grower for me"> low tech., low nutrient.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I have some bolbitis rhizomes for sale at the moment if anyone is interested. They will go through normal post so no need to go collect them from the postie... here https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bolbitis-and-java-fern-rhizomes.59884/


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## Conort2 (29 Mar 2020)

Onoma1 said:


> I first saw Staurogyne Repens in one of the Green Machine videos and most see it as an easy plant, however, it just doesn't seem to grow in my tanks. I have always put this down to it not thriving in soft water.


It does seem to take ages to get going, I’ve had a tissue culture version of this for months now. It now only really seems to have started to get going. It sat there for months doing hardly nothing except for die back. Saying that it’s still very slow compared to other plants in the tank. 

One plant that is supposedly easy but I can only grow with co2 is java fern! The stuff is supposed to be bullet proof yet I can only grow it with additional co2. Low tech it does absolutely nothing and fades away.

cheers

Conor


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (29 Mar 2020)

Java Fern is not as easy as most people think in my experience. I often also recommend people to use it as close to the light source as they can when they are struggling as this has halved in many cases leading me to think it likes stronger lighting than most...


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## jaypeecee (29 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I'd just choose some plants you like the look of. The chances are that the majority of them will be fine in hard, or soft, water.



Hi Darrel,

That's not been my experience. Take _Echinodorus bleheri_ - so easy to grow, a child could do it and win prizes as a result! But I tried lots of things to get mine to grow successfully - and they never did. You will see threads here on UKAPS in which I've shared some of my difficulties with this plant. Is it the lighting, is it lacking in specific ferts, does it need more CO2, is the substrate to blame? According to the Dennerle link that I included above, E. bleheri prefers water with GH from 10 - 20 dGH. My tank water was softer than this as I kept GBRs. Perhaps most UKAPS members are using hard water and have fewer problems with plants? There are obviously lots of variables in growing aquatic plants successfully. There are clearly some people who have demonstrated that water hardness and pH are important considerations.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (29 Mar 2020)

Onoma1 said:


> I first saw Staurogyne Repens in one of the Green Machine videos and most see it as an easy plant, however, it just doesn't seem to grow in my tanks. I have always put this down to it not thriving in soft water.



Hi @Onoma1 

OK, this could be interesting. What is the GH (and pH) of the tank water in which you tried to grow Staurogyne Repens? According to Dennerle, it requires 10 - 25 dGH and pH 6 - 7.

JPC


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (29 Mar 2020)

Some aquatic plants also give out compounds which restrict the growth of others... it’s called Allelopathy


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## jaypeecee (29 Mar 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Some aquatic plants also give out compounds which restrict the growth of others... it’s called Allelopathy



Indeed, that is correct and there are threads here on UKAPS touching on that very topic.

JPC


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## dw1305 (29 Mar 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> According to the Dennerle link that I included above, E. bleheri prefers water with GH from 10 - 20 dGH.


I'm not convinced, I had one that survived about 10 years off total neglect with me, before it went to @Gill.

My guess is it is one of those plants that you just need to leave, and eventually it will grow away.

The water would never have been more than 4 dGH, or the conductivity more than 150microS, and the substrate started as sand.

You can see it in the middle of the tank in the "_football of Bolbitis_" picture.






cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (29 Mar 2020)

Hi all,





Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Java Fern is not as easy as most people think in my experience.


It definitely doesn't enjoy very soft water or very low nutrient levels.

cheers Darrel


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## Onoma1 (29 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Onoma1
> 
> OK, this could be interesting. What is the GH (and pH) of the tank water in which you tried to grow Staurogyne Repens? According to Dennerle, it requires 10 - 25 dGH and pH 6 - 7.
> 
> JPC



If mentioned that I may not actually test would you judge me ?

I went off my water company analysis which I posted somewhere on the forum...will dig it out in a sec. I run two tanks one with ADA Africa (over a year old but still may lower the ph) and another with a dirted substrate with John Innes No3. 

Buce and Frogbit hate the tank with ADA soil but do well in the dirted tank.


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## Onoma1 (29 Mar 2020)

Onoma1 said:


> I went off my water company analysis which I posted somewhere on the forum...will dig it out in a



Hardness Level Soft
Hardness Clarke 2.94 Clarke
Aluminium <10.6 200 µg Al/l
Calcium 8.89 mg Ca/l
Residual chlorine - Total 1.05 mg/l
Residual chlorine - Free 0.97 mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 number/100ml
Colour <1.11 20 mg/l Pt/Co scale
Conductivity 144 2500 uS/cm at 20oC
Copper 0.0525 2 mg Cu/l
E.coli 0 0 number/100ml
Iron <14.5 200 µg Fe/l
Lead <0.647 10 µg Pb/l
Magnesium 4.72 mg Mg/l
Manganese 4.88 50 µg Mn/l
Nitrate <1.51 50 mg NO3/l
Sodium 12.9


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## jaypeecee (30 Mar 2020)

Onoma1 said:


> If mentioned that I may not actually test would you judge me ?



Hi @Onoma1 

No, I certainly wouldn't judge you. I have no right to do that.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (30 Mar 2020)

Onoma1 said:


> Hardness Level Soft
> Hardness Clarke 2.94 Clarke
> Aluminium <10.6 200 µg Al/l
> Calcium 8.89 mg Ca/l
> ...



Hi @Onoma1 

Thanks for the data. You do indeed have soft water. Just to put the above figures in context, here are some figures for my tap water (in East Berkshire):

Calcium  121.16 mg/l (mean)
Magnesium  4.45 mg/l (mean)
General Hardness  15.4 dGH

Even though our magnesium figures are very similar, our calcium figures are very different. Your hardness figure of 2.94 Clarke is equivalent to 2.36 dGH. My tap water GH is 15.4 dGH. According to Dennerle, Staurogyne Repens needs 10 - 25 dGH. Clearly, your figure of 2.36 dGH falls well outside this range. So, your conclusion that "...it just doesn't seem to grow in my tanks. I have always put this down to it not thriving in soft water" may well be correct.

JPC


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## dw1305 (30 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> You do indeed have soft water. Just to put the above figures in context, here are some figures for my tap water (in East Berkshire):
> 
> Calcium 121.16 mg/l (mean)
> Magnesium 4.45 mg/l (mean)
> General Hardness 15.4 dGH


You are going to have similar figures all over the South and East of England, where the aquifers are predominately limestone (and often chalk).

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (30 Mar 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Java Fern is not as easy as most people think in my experience. I often also recommend people to use it as close to the light source as they can when they are struggling as this has halved in many cases leading me to think it likes stronger lighting than most...



Hi Matt,

According to the Dennerle site, Java Fern can be grown in water with GH from 0 - 20 dH. And "Low to medium lighting is completely sufficient, although it also grows well under strong lighting". Of course, what is meant by low, medium and strong lighting is open to interpretation!

JPC


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## dw1305 (30 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> According to the Dennerle site, Java Fern can be grown in water with GH from 0 - 20 dH. And "Low to medium lighting is completely sufficient, although it also grows well under strong lighting". Of course, what is meant by low, medium and strong lighting is open to interpretation!


I've not particulalrly noticed issues with light, but even the "ordinary type" definitely needs more nutrients than my tanks normally provide, and my guess would be more hardness.

In the tanks I probably used to have ten times more Java Fern than _Bolbitis_, and now its definitely the other way around.  

cheers Darrel


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## jameson_uk (30 Mar 2020)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Java Fern is not as easy as most people think in my experience. I often also recommend people to use it as close to the light source as they can when they are struggling as this has halved in many cases leading me to think it likes stronger lighting than most...


I have some Java Fern which must be 3 years old now.   It just survives, it is still the same size as ,possibly slightly smaller than) when I bought it.  The plants don't look deficient, they grow new leaves and occasional plantlets but it never actually gets to look like the lush dense forests you sometimes see.

I have quite hard water (GH12/KH5) and have often wondered whether the hardness stops it growing but I also have some of Tropica's windolev variety in my shrimp tank (which is cut with about 1/3rd distilled water) and that does the same.

Ferts are / have been reasonably high and I have tried moving it to high flow areas, low flow areas, nearer the light, in shaded areas... But always the same, surviving but not thriving.

I also have a similar issue with the other stupidly easy, will survive anything plant, Amazon Swords.

Crypts, limnophilia sessiflora, Anubias all flourishing but not those two easy plants.


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> I also have a similar issue with the other stupidly easy, will survive anything plant, Amazon Swords.



Hi @jameson_uk 

It would appear that there are two types of Amazon Sword:

E. amazonicus  GH 0 - 20dGH, pH 5 - 8
E. bleherae  GH 10 - 20 dGH, pH 5 - 9

(data taken from Dennerle Plant Database)

Perhaps the first of these plants is what some people buy and it is uncritical of water hardness - unlike the second one. It was definitely the second one that I most recently had. I tried reducing the light falling on it by progressively shading it but all to no avail. I did this because I was concerned that it may be receiving too much light. I also tried using Seachem _Flourish Tabs_. No joy.

JPC


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## jameson_uk (31 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @jameson_uk
> 
> It would appear that there are two types of Amazon Sword:
> 
> ...


My GH is 12 so in both ranges ( although this I guess isn't that meaningful as it could all be magnesium or calcium or a mixture).

These were the first plants I got (based on them being indestructible) and I got some pretty big plants which did ok for a while but then went the same way as the Java Fern and I know have one tiny plant left.  I do suspect some of this might have been down to the substrate not being deep enough although they did spread quite large roots.

I kind of gave up worrying about them and trying to get them to grow but I seem to have more time round the fish tank currently....


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> My GH is 12 so in both ranges ( although this I guess isn't that meaningful as it could all be magnesium or calcium or a mixture).



Hi @jameson_uk 

You can see an analysis of your tap water if you download a full water quality report from your water company's web site. Well worth doing. It will show you figures for calcium, magnesium and a whole lot more. I see that you are in Birmingham so you possibly get your water from _Severn Trent_. Just go to their site and follow the links. Easy peasy! It would be very interesting to know what your calcium and magnesium figures are.

JPC


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## jameson_uk (31 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @jameson_uk
> 
> You can see an analysis of your tap water if you download a full water quality report from your water company's web site. Well worth doing. It will show you figures for calcium, magnesium and a whole lot more. I see that you are in Birmingham so you possibly get your water from _Severn Trent_. Just go to their site and follow the links. Easy peasy! It would be very interesting to know what your calcium and magnesium figures are.
> 
> JPC


There is a thread somewhere about my water (is about magnesium).   My water is from South Staffs and comes from North of Birmingham.  It is apparently abnormally high in magnesium for UK water.  So my water is relatively hard but I don't actually get much limescale.


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## dw1305 (31 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





jameson_uk said:


> There is a thread somewhere about my water (is about magnesium).


<"This one">.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @jameson_uk
> 
> You can see an analysis of your tap water if you download a full water quality report from your water company's web site. Well worth doing. It will show you figures for calcium, magnesium and a whole lot more. I see that you are in Birmingham so you possibly get your water from _Severn Trent_. Just go to their site and follow the links. Easy peasy! It would be very interesting to know what your calcium and magnesium figures are.
> 
> JPC



I’m in the Severn Trent region, and unfortunately they don’t seem to list a number for Magnesium content, just general hardness - unless it’s listed under a name I don’t recognise (I’m no chemist!).

This is the page where a post code can be entered. 

https://www.stwater.co.uk/my-supply/water-quality/check-my-water-quality/


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## jameson_uk (31 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, <"This one">.


Thanks, couldn't find it on my phone.
I found the average hardness stats which for my area state

Alkalinity (Average HCO3 mg/l) - 132
Calcium (Average Ca mg/l) - 54
Magnesium (Average Mg mg/l) - 9.68
Total hardness (average) - CaCO3 mg/l -
Total hardness (average) - Degrees (German) - 9.8

Although my hardness is slightly higher than that and I possibly get water from a neighbouring zone as I live on the border but it is in the right ball park I think.


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I’m in the Severn Trent region, and unfortunately they don’t seem to list a number for Magnesium content, just general hardness - unless it’s listed under a name I don’t recognise (I’m no chemist!).
> 
> This is the page where a post code can be entered.
> 
> https://www.stwater.co.uk/my-supply/water-quality/check-my-water-quality/



Hi @Wookii 

Obviously, I can't try the link as I don't live in your neck of the woods so don't have a valid post code. There should be an option to see a full water quality report. Magnesium will almost certainly be listed as its full name - magnesium - as opposed to Mg.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I’m in the Severn Trent region, and unfortunately they don’t seem to list a number for Magnesium content, just general hardness - unless it’s listed under a name I don’t recognise (I’m no chemist!).
> 
> This is the page where a post code can be entered.
> 
> https://www.stwater.co.uk/my-supply/water-quality/check-my-water-quality/



Hi @Wookii 

Obviously, I can't try the link as I don't live in your neck of the woods so don't have a valid post code. There should be an option to see a full water quality report. Magnesium will almost certainly be listed as its full name - magnesium - as opposed to Mg.

JPC


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## dw1305 (31 Mar 2020)

Hi all,





Wookii said:


> I’m in the Severn Trent region, and unfortunately they don’t seem to list a number for Magnesium content,


They aren't obliged to report parameters where there isn't a legal limit. This means that for some of the parameters we are interested in (magnesium, phosphorus etc) levels aren't necessarily reported.

Because you are in Nottingham you may have appreciable levels of magnesium in your water for <"geological reasons">. This is the extent of the magnesian limestone deposit and and aquifer.







cheers Darrel


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## jameson_uk (31 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> Obviously, I can't try the link as I don't live in your neck of the woods so don't have a valid post code. There should be an option to see a full water quality report. Magnesium will almost certainly be listed as its full name - magnesium - as opposed to Mg.
> 
> JPC


The actual water quality report for my area has everything like Boron, Manganese, copper, iron... But not magnesium.   The figures above are from a second water hardness report I came across.


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Wookii
> 
> Obviously, I can't try the link as I don't live in your neck of the woods so don't have a valid post code. There should be an option to see a full water quality report. Magnesium will almost certainly be listed as its full name - magnesium - as opposed to Mg.
> 
> JPC



Try this: NG9 6QX (a local Tesco as I obviously don’t want to add my personal postcode on a public forum)


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,They aren't obliged to report parameters where there isn't a legal limit. This means that for some of the parameters we are interested in (magnesium, phosphorus etc) levels aren't necessarily reported.
> 
> Because you are in Nottingham you may have appreciable levels of magnesium in your water for <"geological reasons">. This is the extent of the magnesian limestone deposit and and aquifer.
> 
> ...



Thanks Darrel. Yes I do think there is a fair amount in the tap water. I know you don’t like test kits, but when I have used one for Mg the resulting reading is in the upper range of colour values.


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2020)

jameson_uk said:


> The actual water quality report for my area has everything like Boron, Manganese, copper, iron... But not magnesium.   The figures above are from a second water hardness report I came across.



If you are Severn Trent too, I assume you’re seeing the same report as me.

Where did you get the additional water hardness report?


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## jameson_uk (31 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> If you are Severn Trent too, I assume you’re seeing the same report as me.


As above, my water comes from South Staffs not Severn Trent (I near enough live in Lichfield not Birmingham).
Looks like Severn Trent just give you the hardness and not a breakdown.   I might be tempted to email them and ask if they can provide you with a breakdown as I suspect they have probably measured it.


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Try this: NG9 6QX (a local Tesco as I obviously don’t want to add my personal postcode on a public forum)



Hi @Wookii 

I tried that post code and you are correct - calcium and magnesium are omitted. I agree with the suggestion made by @jameson_uk - try emailing them.

JPC


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## dw1305 (31 Mar 2020)

Hi all, 





jameson_uk said:


> I might be tempted to email them and ask if they can provide you with a breakdown as I suspect they have probably measured it.


They may do if they use ICP for the analysis, it simultaneously gives you a reading for all the metal ions. The advantage of this is that you don't need to shuffle through the lamps for one with an <"appropriate wavelength"> to find the emission spectra specifically for magnesium.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

Hi Folks,

I have just been reading a bit more of Diana Walstad's book, _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_. There is a section in which she discusses hardwater natural habitats and the hardwater nutrients that are in plentiful supply in these habitats. Regarding Amazon Swordplants, she makes the comment that "They don't do well in tanks with softwater..." QED. I think that says it all.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (31 Mar 2020)

dw1305 said:


> They may do if they use ICP for the analysis, it simultaneously gives you a reading for all the metal ions.



And, failing that, I'll turn up with my test kits and a calculator! 

JPC


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## _Maq_ (15 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I think Diana Walstad lists plants that can use bicarbonate as a carbon source? In that case they should all do well in harder water, if they can't they are more likely to struggle.


Diana Walstad (1) is no scientist and does not follow rules of scientific ethics, (2) her book is rather outdated and she never cared to study later literature because, in fact, she moved to a quite different field of interest.
So, as for her list: Even at the time she has been writing her book there was growing consensus that submerged plants are not divided into two groups - can and can not - but rather there's a continuous scale of varying affinity of species to bicarbonates.


jaypeecee said:


> V. spiralis is a plant on which Diana Walstad carried out an experiment. This plant was shown to distinctly dislike acidic soft water!


Yep. This is a perfect example of her low honesty. She performed the experiment at two values of pH: 8 and 4 (four!). Only very few plants can live in such strongly acidic water. Yet that does not mean that _V. spiralis_ cannot thrive at pH 6. She didn't try, but felt free to conclude that not only _V. spiralis_, but majority of all water plants prefer alkaline water. She arranged this "scientific" experiment in such a way to 'prove' her thesis.

In another place she concludes that water hardness is THE decisive factor. Mind you, water hardness is mostly an industrially important number. Calcium and magnesium are important for all waterworks because their compounds tend to precipitate in plumbings. But from plants' point of view, there's no reason to see Ca & Mg as more important than, say, potassium or sulfur.
Of variables which generally and profoundly affect living conditions for plants, two (interconnected) stand clearly atop: pH and bicarbonate content (rather than alkalinity).


dw1305 said:


> the plants are showing clear signs of iron induced chlorosis, and I would take that as a pretty good indication that _Rotala rotundifolia_ is much happier in softer water.


Again, it's not soft water (low GH) but pH and bicarbonates which strongly affect iron availability.


Tim Harrison said:


> some plants may do better in hard water because they can synthesise carbon from bicarbonates


All higher plants prefer CO2 over HCO3-, without exemptions. But those with higher affinity for bicarbonates are in a competitive advantage at higher pH.


Tim Harrison said:


> I usually ignore other folks/experts opinions and try it anyway. Half the time they're just plain wrong or have confused cause and effect. I've lost count of the times plants have thrived or died when and where they "shouldn't" have.


Unfortunately, you're right. Most guides are fairly useless. I like Flowgrow database. But it also features many disputable suggestions, and even outright nonsenses. I mean, they often combine recommendations for pH and KH in such a way that if you tried to follow it to the letter, you'd have to inject _hundreds_ of mg CO2 per litre. By the way, just a few days ago I asked them about it and they were pretty rude to me.


jaypeecee said:


> Where can I get a list of aquarium plants that includes recommended water hardness?


As far as I know, nowhere.
I think it's due to prevailing habit of CO2 injection and using strong artificial chelates. When you read the guides (par example Flowgrow), it's basically the same for any species. "A LOT" approach - a lot of light, a lot of CO2, a lot of macronutrients, a lot of micronutrients, and if the plant happens to possess rich roots, they usually recomment nutrient-rich substrate (which is a clearly mistaken reasoning).
With CO2 injection and strong artificial chelates you can overcome many difficulties stemming from natural preferences of a given species. So, recommendations made by people who run hi-tech tanks are mostly worthless - they don't refer to standard (natural) conditions.
That's why I've been performing my experiments, strictly without CO2 and artificial chelates, and in this way I've been collecting data on what our plants truly like & hate. An endless source of fun and enlightenment. I've published some articles on my findings, unfortunately, in my native language only. It's too difficult for me to translate them to English. Besides, I think the original publisher has some rights to them, perhaps I can't publish them elsewhere without consent. Never asked, anyway...


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## John q (15 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Yet that does not mean that _V. spiralis_ cannot thrive at pH 6.


V spiralis grows like a weed in my tank, lovely soft water with a ph around 6. So agree Diana is completely wrong on this assumption. 



_Maq_ said:


> With CO2 injection and strong artificial chelates you can overcome many difficulties stemming from natural preferences of a given species. So, recommendations made by people who run hi-tech tanks are mostly worthless


Scratch that, vallisneria will only grow in hard water. 😆


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## dw1305 (16 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> Again, it's not soft water (low GH) but pH and bicarbonates which strongly affect iron availability.


That is a bit of sloppiness on my behalf really. I've used "hard" and "soft" to refer to the calcium carbonate (CaCO3) of the water, and I haven't differentiated between <"permanent hardness"> (dGH or divalent cations) and temporary hardness (dKH or carbonate content, <"measured as alkalinity">).

I've done this because, <"in the UK">, nearly all of <"our aquifers are limestone">, and that <"supplies 1 dGH : 1 dKH">. You can actually go further than that and say, for most of us, our hard water is ~ 17 dGH, 17 dKH & pH~8, because of the <"carbonate ~ CO2 ~ pH equilibrium">.

If you use RO you can decouple dGH and dKH, which is what both @james C <"James' Planted Tank - Re-mineralising RO Water"> and @Roland  have done.  <"Soft water tank">.


_Maq_ said:


> there was growing consensus that submerged plants are not divided into two groups - can and can not - but rather there's a continuous scale of varying affinity of species to bicarbonates.


Definitely will be, it is back to ecology and <"shades of grey">.  Having said that some plants are going to occur in situations where the water can be hard or soft, but there are plants that are, very much, restricted to soft or hard water. If you just look at the "Pondweeds" (genus _Potamogeton)_  in N. Europe, if you find Bog Pondweed (_Potamogeton polygonifolius), _you are <"in a peat bog"> and if you find Fennel-leaved Ponweed (_Potamogeton pectinatus) _you have <"nutrient & base rich water">.


_Maq_ said:


> She didn't try, but felt free to conclude that not only _V. spiralis_, but majority of all water plants prefer alkaline water.


I would agree that there are bits of the <"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium"> that aren't entirely objective. In some ways that was the answer she wanted, because she had to have aquariums with base rich, alkaline conditions. This was because she didn't change any water and therefore didn't replenish the <"carbonate hardness consumed during microbial nitrification">.  I'd cut her a <"bit more slack than you do">, particularly as she <"revised some her practices"> after she had written the book.


_Maq_ said:


> Most guides are fairly useless. I like Flowgrow database. But it also features many disputable suggestions, and even outright nonsenses. I mean, they often combine recommendations for pH and KH in such a way that if you tried to follow it to the letter, you'd have to inject _hundreds_ of mg CO2 per litre


Again I'd cut them a bit more slack as well. There are new "aquatic plants" appearing all the time. I'll be honest, personally I have much more of an issue with some of the plants sold as "aquatic", <"when they patently aren't">.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (16 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Again, it's not soft water (low GH) but pH and bicarbonates





dw1305 said:


> I've used "hard" and "soft" to refer to the calcium carbonate (CaCO3) of the water



I have always worked under the assumption that the softness/hardness of water related exclusively to the carbonate levels (so KH and ultimately pH) in the water, is this not correct? Do the magnesium and calcium levels come into play when detemining the hardness of water also?

For example I would have assumed water with KH0 / GH10 would be soft, but water with KH10, GH0 would be hard?


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## dw1305 (16 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> I have always worked under the assumption that the softness/hardness of water related exclusively to the carbonate levels (so KH and ultimately pH) in the water, is this not correct? Do the magnesium and calcium levels come into play when detemining the hardness of water also?


It is back to definitions, so I've used it that context, but @_Maq_ has used "hardness" to purely refer to the dGH, the <"permanent hardness">.  Rather than referring to the dKH ("temporary hardness")  as "hardness" the term "alkalinity" is preferred, because that is what we actually measure. 

I can see the rationale for this, and for using mg / L or moles as a unit, and I will do this going forward, but it doesn't help with the posts from the past or information from other web sites, water companies etc.


Wookii said:


> For example I would have assumed water with KH0 / GH10 would be soft, but water with KH10, GH0 would be hard?


Other way around for @_Maq_ , that way around for me.   

If I was using DI and creating "designer water", I would decouple dGH and dKH (like @Roland has), but  as I use rainwater, with hard, alkaline tap water (when required) as my re-mineralising agent I'm always adding 1 : 1 dGH : dKH.

cheers Darrel


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## _Maq_ (16 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> the term "alkalinity" is preferred, because that is what we actually measure.


... and it helps avoid confusion when talking about 'hardness' and 'hard'. 
But then, we must be careful when talking about 'alkaline', 'alkalinity', 'basic', 'basicity'... 
----
There are relevant examples of natural waters where hardness is not coupled with alkalinity: East-African lakes. We are used to waters with cation content like Ca > Mg > Na > K. In East Africa it's Na > Mg > Ca > K. So, many East-African waters are soft (low Mg & Ca) but with very high alkalinity (HCO3-, CO3 2-) which drives pH up to over 9.


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