# Flow rates



## pembulls (22 Feb 2012)

Hi folks I am just in the process of starting a very large discus show tank (7ft) and I would like to partially plant it , I have never had a planted tank before and really don't have much of a clue where to start so I would appreciate some advice please .First of all is it easy doing a partly planted tank and if so how do you stop the substrate moving around(I would like part of the tanks substrate sand),what flow rate will I need on the tank , will I need to use C02, The tanks depth is 27ins and I have just bought 5 TMC Aqua ray 500 gro led lights will this be enough light to grow plants, or will I need more.


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## Tom (22 Feb 2012)

Hi,

I would aim for around 10,000 lph for your flow. If you use spray bars (probably more than one along the back wall), it will give you lower velocity than just using a single jet, so shouldn't destroy the sand. It would be trial and error though at first. 

As for the Aqua Rays - knowing people that have had them over 24-30" deep reef tanks, they have complained about the poor intensity in the bottom half of the reef. Never tried one myself though.


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## pembulls (22 Feb 2012)

Thanks Tom the tanks capacity is 1115 lts and there are two weirs and a 5ft sump tank the pumps will return the water via the sumps , sorry should have mentioned that before.


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## sussex_cichlids (22 Feb 2012)

Also thing to remember when picking your plants as they need to tolerate the higher temperature in a discus tank if your planning to plant a mix of plants good place to start would be with things like 


Aponogetum Crispus
Cabomba Furcata
Ceratopteris Thalicroides
Cryptocoryne Beckettii
Cryptocoryne Ciliata
Cryptocoryne Wendtii
Echinodorus Paniculatas
Echinodorus Tennellus
Hygrophilia Polysperma
Ludwigia Mullertii
Microsorium Pteropos
Myriophylum Procerpinoides
Nymphae Stellata
Rotalla Macrandra
Rotalla Rotundifolia
Vallinseria Spirallis
Vallisneria Torta

Few things i kept in my 2009 120ltr Eheim/MP Junglescape


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## pembulls (22 Feb 2012)

Thanks for that , I didn't have a clue which plants to use so thats given me loads to go on.


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## ceg4048 (22 Feb 2012)

pembulls said:
			
		

> Hi folks I am just in the process of starting a very large discus show tank (7ft) and I would like to partially plant it , I have never had a planted tank before and really don't have much of a clue where to start so I would appreciate some advice please .First of all is it easy doing a partly planted tank and if so how do you stop the substrate moving around(I would like part of the tanks substrate sand),what flow rate will I need on the tank , will I need to use C02, The tanks depth is 27ins and I have just bought 5 TMC Aqua ray 500 gro led lights will this be enough light to grow plants, or will I need more.


Hello,
    The most fundamental decision you make when deciding on the direction of your tank is to decide whether or not you want to enrich CO2 or not. This decision comes before EVERYTHING because it determines the entire configuration of the tank as well as the amount of energy and planning required to manage the tank. So the question of CO2 does not have to do with "need" as it has to do with "want". Adding CO2 changes everything. It forces higher growth rates which then forces you to do more water changes and maintenance. To maintain good plant health it also forces you to dose more nutrition. Enriching CO2 allows you to use higher lighting but does not require you to use higher lighting. So you must choose either to use CO2 and have more maintenance but quicker growth and a better variety of plants, or to not use CO2 and to have slower growth and less maintenance.

If you decide that you want to enrich CO2 then you really need to study Ed Seeley's article in the Tutorials Section of the forum Setting up a 'higher' tech planted tank

In fact you should read all the articles there to help you decide if this is the course of action you want to take.

Lighting causes more problems in a planted tank than anything else, except for CO2 ineptitude. That's why you must be very careful interpreting statements like:


			
				Tom said:
			
		

> As for the Aqua Rays - knowing people that have had them over 24-30" deep reef tanks, they have complained about the poor intensity in the bottom half of the reef. Never tried one myself though.


This is primarily how planted tanks get destroyed._ Who cares_ what reefers complain about? The goal of reefers is to get as much light energy in their tanks as possible. For freshwater planted tanks the goal should be to minimize the amount of light energy going into the tank while maintaining an acceptable level of aesthetic appeal. Too much light damages plants and causes algae, too little light looks dim and boring, so reef tanks and planted tanks are on opposite ends of the spectrum as far as this goes. If reefers complain that BrandX light has poor intensity, then this might be an excellent choice for a plant enthusiast. It might be though that the lamp still produces too much light for our purposes, even though the reefer complains about it's poor performance. If you have the means it would be a good idea to buy or borrow a PAR meter and this will tell you a lot about your lighting -  and save you a lot of trouble in the long run.



			
				sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> Also thing to remember when picking your plants as they need to tolerate the higher temperature in a discus tank if your planning to plant a mix of plants good place to start would be with things like


This also has limited applicability. I have not found a plant that I cannot grow at Discus temperatures. The limiting factor of your plant choice has to do more with whether or not you use CO2, because some plants require much more CO2 to function than others. having said that, Crypts and Swords are always an excellent choice for a large Discus tank because they grow large and will fill the space. Delicate, fine leaf plants may get lost in the scape, but again, this is an aesthetic issue not a temperature one.

To separate your different sediments you can use wire mesh or plastic sheet standing on edge to form the shape you want. When you fill in the sediment the mesh or plastic prevents mixing. You can also use the sheet or mesh to form slopes and grading in the back of the tank and this will keep the sediment from flattening out over time.


Cheers,


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## pembulls (22 Feb 2012)

Very interesting read ceg4048 I do want to run CO2 in the tank,  the idea is to build a wall in rocks about 10 cms high from weir to weir inside the tank and fill it with Caribsea Eco plant, I thought this would not only allow me to have a different substrate in front of the wall(Sand) ,but also raise the plants slightly towards the light while also giving them a deeper substrate base , it also means I can concentrate my lighting in that area.


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## foxfish (22 Feb 2012)

Sounds good but if your budget will stretch consider ADA substrate!
Re the sump - that is good too but I wouldn't run 10000 ltr an hour through the sump, look for a good quality needle wheel pump that pushes half that amount or even better two pumps that give a genuine 2 or 3000 ltr.
You can then feed the C02 into the pumps & feed the water into both ends of a 7' spray bar situated just below the surface along the back wall. You will then need (possibly) more internal pumps to carry the flow around the tank.
The idea is to distribute the C02 every where, a spray bar is really good for this especially in a discus tank if you don't want to much jetted flow?
Having said all of that - certain plants can grow really well in a soil based tank without injecting C02, Amazon swords being a good example, I guess it depends on what you want to achieve & how fast?


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## ceg4048 (22 Feb 2012)

Hi,
    Well, having made a choice, you now need to understand that choice. The aquascape plan sounds like a nice idea, however, if you haven't yet bought the substrate, I would strongly advise against EcoComplete. It's not that this is a bad substrate, it's just hard baked clay, which is always an excellent choice for plants, but the problem is that it costs the same or nearly the same as substrates that are much better such as ADA Amazonia or the Oliver Knott equivalent. These are also clay but they are enriched with macronutrients, micronutrients and peat, whereas the EcoComplete only comes with the minor mineral content of the clay that it is made out of.

Again, I would be very careful about concentrating light. If you are adding CO2 then you need to think more about concentrating CO2, because CO2 and nutrients will keep your plants healthy, while concentrated light will tend to destroy plant health and cause algae.

Cheers,


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## pembulls (22 Feb 2012)

Hi foxfish and ceg4048 thanks for all the great advice , I have just had a look at the ADA Amazonia and will go with your advice on that thanks .
Ok the sump, the plan was to have 2 Eheim 1262 internal pumps they have a 3400ltr per hour capacity each but I wasn't sure if that was enough turn over of water for plants as I have read 10x volume. The weirs have been designed  with 2 holes each so that the water from the sump can be returned back through them, so I don't think I can attach spray bars ?(but as I haven't seen the tank yet I may be talking Cxxp there) The tank has been ordered and will be here some time in April (latest 26th), so I have plenty of time to work this all out and get what I need.


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## foxfish (23 Feb 2012)

I dont quite understand what you are saying about the sump & spray bar?

Anyhow if you are injecting C02 you need some form of method to dissolve or atomise the gas, you have a couple of choices - a reactor or a needle wheel pump.

There are other methods but, because of the scale of your tank those are the recommended methods.
Personally I would use two NW pumps like these http://www.charterhouse-aquatics.co.uk/ ... -2701.html mainly because of the simplicity of their function & set up.
You would just need to feed the gas into the pump & return the water to the tank.

I cant imagine why you cant use a full length spray bar, the water returns from the pumps into the bar!

The reason I suggest using internal flow in addition to the sump pumps is because C02 gas in very keen to disappear into the atmosphere (imaging opening a fizzy drink) so the more water you flow over the weirs the more gas that will be lost!
On that basis we flow enough water into the sump for it to be biologically effective & make up any adisianle flow with somything like theese http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalo ... F8Q8wIwAQ#


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