# Lean Dosing Methods



## Dominik_K (1 May 2017)

Hi,

i am currently planning a new 128 l Tank, placed in the mid tech area. This one needs an appropriate dosing routine. 

In my current high tech setup, I use Estimative Index, finding myself fixing one issue after another. First Green Algae appeared, then GSA, then Green Water. And in the meanwhile I pump tons of ferts in a 54 l Scape. It seems as it would just not work out for me. Don't get me wrong, the tweaking is interesting and gives me a new view for the aquarium hobby. And that was the purpose of me jumping into the planted tank hobby. Little by little, I get fixed anything, so I feel a lot of success 

Since I will be driving with a lot less tech (medium light most likely) within the new tank and choosing less demanding plants, I decided to take a lean approach. I found two options and wanted to ask if there are more and what experiences you have with those dosing routines:

1. PPS Pro:
This one seems to be pretty easy, but the low levels of phosphate are scaring me, since i had to fight GSA pretty hard. But if one increases the PO4, the K rises too. And this is pretty high anyways. Am I getting something wrong there?

2. Lean Estimative Index:
This dosing routine was created by Tom Barr to help people, who do not want to dose tons of ferts or change lots of water. Seems pretty good to me, but I am not 100 percent sure, if it will fit with higher levels of water changes (planning at least 40 to 50 percent weekly changes).


I would really appreciate your opinions on this topic 

Have a nice day.

Best Regards
Dominik


----------



## Progen (1 May 2017)

1. I've just switched to PPS PRO last week so I can't comment too much yet. First 3 days was more like E.I. all over again because I misread the 1ml per 10 gallons as 1ml per gallon. Anyway, it's a 55G and no harm done.

2. The lean method of E.I. also means you don't need to change water that often to reset nutrient levels. Besides being used for low light / requirement tanks, it's also used by people who don't have the time / urge / inclination for weekly water changes and are in no hurry to harvest anything so why waste money and time if you're going to go lean and that dosing method doesn't call for it?


----------



## dw1305 (2 May 2017)

Hi all, 





Dominik_K said:


> This one seems to be pretty easy, but the low levels of phosphate are scaring me, since i had to fight GSA pretty hard. But if one increases the PO4, the K rises too. And this is pretty high anyways. Am I getting something wrong there?


I think you are stuck with adding more K+ along with your PO4---. 

This is because would need to use another phosphate source, rather than K2HPO4/KH2PO4 (di-potassium phosphate/dihydrogen potassium phosphate). (If you have the choice dihydrogen phosphate (KH2PO4) has a higher PO4:K ratio than the "dipotassium" option.) 

The easiest soluble alternatives would be dihydrogen sodium phosphate (NaH2PO4) or di-ammonium phosphate ((NH4)2HPO4), but neither of those is very suitable. 

The only other option is "super-phosphate" (Ca(H2PO4)2., but that isn't very soluble and you wouldn't have much control over the addition.  You can get it in  "food grade" as a raising agent for baking

cheers Darrel


----------



## Dominik_K (2 May 2017)

Hi,

@Progen : I am a fan of big water changes since I am in the fish keeping hobby. I think it does a lot more than just resetting nutrient levels. For example the germinal density. 

@Darrel : I don't have the choice, but I am lucky enough to only get the KH2PO4 version  Thanks for all your information. Do you think the potessium levels will be a problem sooner or later?

Best Regards
Dominik


----------



## xim (2 May 2017)

PPS Pro includes K2SO4, you can cut or even omit this one to lower K.


----------



## Dominik_K (2 May 2017)

@xim : sadly i can't do this. In Germany, the distribution of KNO3 is restricted and therefore i am forced to buy commercial products. Two are using the PPS Pro recipie 1:1 and i am not able to cut any ingredients.

But generelly speaking, that would be a nice solution, so thank you for the great idea


----------



## dw1305 (2 May 2017)

Hi all,
You don't have to use a formulaic approach to adding fertilizer, you can always use the <"Duckweed Index">, even for a mid-tech tank. If your "Duckweed" look like @Timon Vogelaar's, (from <"An Iwagumi....">) you definitely have enough nutrients .







Dominik_K said:


> Do you think the potassium levels will be a problem sooner or later?


No, probably not.

Plants have a high potassium (K+) requirement (of a similar magnitude to their requirement for nitrogen (N)), and this is several times greater than their requirement for phosphorus (PO4---).

Also because it is a monovalent cation (K+), it isn't strongly bound to humus etc, and all its compounds are soluble. This means that all the potassium in the tank is as K+ ions in solution.





Dominik_K said:


> I am a fan of big water changes since I am in the fish keeping hobby.


I'm a fairly fanatical water changer (smaller volumes, but every day) as well and when you change the tank water, you export any K+ ions.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Progen (2 May 2017)

I'll be upgrading to a 600+ litre setup so that's why I'm looking for ways to cut down on water changes.

I'm fanatical about not wasting water. My tank water is used to scrub the bathroom floor and walls.


----------



## dw1305 (2 May 2017)

Hi all,





Progen said:


> I'm fanatical about not wasting water. My tank water is used to scrub the bathroom floor and walls.


I use rain-water, but even having relatively small volume tanks I'm getting quite low on water already, because it has been a very dry spring in the UK.  





Progen said:


> I'll be upgrading to a 600+ litre setup so that's why I'm looking for ways to cut down on water changes.


Unless you are really heavy handed with the fertiliser, you can use smaller percentage water changes with larger volume tanks, mainly because (unless you have a lot of big fish), you will have a smaller bioload per litre of water.

When we did more work with waste water we used to basically have re-circulating system, with a large planted "wet and dry" trickle filter, and this could drastically reduce the BOD of polluted effluents.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Progen (2 May 2017)

That's precisely why I switched to PPS - PRO, Darrell. I'm in no hurry to recoup any money from selling plants so they can take their time to grow. I'll also be working on a home business so life won't be as fun as now where I can lie on the bed half of the day looking at the 4 tanks surrounding the bed.


----------



## Dominik_K (2 May 2017)

Hi,

@Darrel : Thanks for the Input, I will read on the Duckweed Index Indeed. Currently a bit short on time (Work and University  ) but I will check this out for sure.

As for some PPS Pro, I did some calculations. And I think I was a bit to afraid of K. The Basic recipe has a 1 / 0.1 / 1.3 ratio of NO3 / PO4 / K. Adding further PO4 to have 1 / 0.2 (NO3 / PO4) leads to 1 / 0.2 / 1.34 (same as above). This difference in K should not make any difference so thank you for making me think about this again 

@Progen : I see your point. Had a 330 l Tank a few years ago. There I did only 20 percent every week. Mainly due to financial and logistical reasons, exchanging around 150 l a week is both, expensiv and pretty time consuming.

The 27 liters I exchange weekly at the moment (54 l tank) are used to water the garden and room plants in dry times. This saves a lot of the waste, but winter and rain are killing this use.

Best Regards
Dominik


----------



## Progen (3 May 2017)

We Chinese have a saying for your situation.

你想太多了

Direct translation is, 'You think too much' which means you worry unnecessarily. You're obviously not a newbie so just upscale or downscale accordingly and as some experts would say, "Let the plants tell you what's needed".


----------



## Dominik_K (3 May 2017)

Progen said:


> 你想太多了



I should tattoo this one into my hand for sure


----------



## Progen (3 May 2017)

Another meaning could be 'self deluder' like if you start getting fresh with a girl just because she's nice to you but she doesn't want to get into a relationship. 


That's the Orient for you. In the old days, it's rude to speak one's mind aloud. That's why until today when you sit down for a meal with a Chinese, they'll either wait for you to finish ordering first or do something really irritating like remarking that they do not know what they'd like to eat.


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (3 May 2017)

Is there a Chinese saying for "I don't think enough" that's what I would get tattooed on my fore head. A little reminder every time I looked in the mirror in the morning.


----------



## Progen (3 May 2017)

That should work out to ...

我是笨蛋

"I'm a dummy"


----------



## AverageWhiteBloke (5 May 2017)

Haha You'd better believe it. Round our way we have a saying but it's a bit more elaborate. You would say he's the man who got sacked from the diamond mine for pinching lead off the roof. 
I don't think that tattoo would fit on my arm though unless the lettering was very small. 

Sent from my STH100-2 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mortis (7 May 2017)

If your water isnt too hard and since KNO3 isnt available to you, you could use CaNO3 instead


----------



## dw1305 (7 May 2017)

Hi all, 





Mortis said:


> KNO3 isnt available to you, you could use CaNO3 instead


You would need a definitive answer from the OP, but I suspect that the prohibition covers all nitrates, because they are "<potentially components of explosives">. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Dominik_K (8 May 2017)

Hi,

@Mortis : as Darrel already mentioned, i need to check, if this is restricted too. KNO3 is available, but it is hard to get it. One has to pass through some official registrations and I heard stories of people facing polices searches. That's to annoying for me 
But I will check for CaNO3 for sure, since the german laws are illogical more often than not.


----------

