# Growing stem plants without substrate . . .



## Wookii (20 Jul 2020)

So I am going through various planning aspects of my future 1500mm tank, and have been heavily inspired by @Ady34 's beautiful tank (see here: Re-Education . . .) where he has achieved a beautiful planted tank without a single grain of aquatic soil. All stems are planted loosely within the hardscape.

This was a bit of a revelation to me. Whilst I was obviously familiar with epiphyte species like Buce, Anubias, Bolbitis and various fern varieties, along with of course mosses etc - which all happily grow directly onto hardscape - I had never actually considered the possibility of growing stem plants without an active substrate.

From a long term maintenance perspective this appears a really attractive option; being able to just pull up bunches of, or individual, stems, trim 6 inches from the bottom, and stick them back into the hardscape - plus being able to more easily baster-blow and hoover the hardscape to remove detritus without stirring up soil. From an aquascaping perspective it also seems to offer much more flexibility in plant positioning, if they don't have to be uprooted and replanted from/into soil.

So I thought I would start a thread to discuss the possibilities. For example it may even be possible to grow carpeting plants without a substrate - I have seen stainless steel mesh pads of Eleocharis mini for example?

I'd be interested to know peoples thoughts and experiences . . .


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## LondonDragon (20 Jul 2020)

Not sure if you have seen my very old journal:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/my-first-planted-tank-the-end-juwel-rio-125.1152/

A lot of the photos are still there, I run that for quite a few years on plain gravel and never added a root tab either!


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## tiger15 (20 Jul 2020)

I keep planted tanks with large cichlid that dig, so I designed my setups without substrate rooted plants.  Majority of my plants are epiphytes attached to rock, but I have a few rosette and stem plants rooted in hydroponic pots with inert gravel.  Rosette plants developed strong roots, and once established they won’t come off and never need to be replanted.  Stem plants grow tall with no limit, so they need to be pruned and replanted  periodically to constraint height.  Stems also have weaker roots and more brittle stems, so they break off easily and always need more replanting work. But having them in pots makes replanting easier  by taking them outside to do repotting.  The pots are eye sore so I tried to hide them with rock and epiphytes in front.  

While I cannot grow true carpet plants like Monte Carlo or hair grass without substrate, I managed to have tall carpet like plants by attaching Trident Java fern and Anubias nano petite to small larva rock as shown in my 75 and 125 gal.   There are stems in the Hydrocotyle family that will vine up drift wood without substrate, and one stem, Hydropholla pinnatifid, that is a true epiphyte, but choices are limited.  Stems do not need substrate to thrive as they can uptake nutrients entirely from the water column.  I have tried bunching stems in suction cup rings but they don’t hold tight enough to last long, but you can experiment other ways to make it work for you.


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## foxfish (20 Jul 2020)

I grew plants out of a log once, link in my signature


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## tiger15 (20 Jul 2020)

foxfish said:


> I grew plants out of a log once, link in my signature


Using hollow log as a planting base is an innovative idea, and can reach high for more light and better circulation.   Amano’s forest style often insert stems into crevices of drift wood filled with growing media to look natural.  There is a similar idea to tie  ludwigia palustris to drift wood to make a red bonsai tree, impressive but not easy to upkeep.  



None of these ideas satisfy the OP objective to simplify maintenance work though as replanting requires tedious maneuvering underwater.  Stems are not evolved to attach to objects so artificially change their habit won’t stick.  Potting stems is probably the best option for easy maintenance except that hiding the pots out of sight is a challenge.


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## Wookii (20 Jul 2020)

Thanks for the responses guys, some interesting reading and some lovely looking tanks, but all the examples mentioned so far still use a substrate - all be it gravel rather than active soil - placed on the tank floor, in hardscape, or in pots, so all same the same maintenance and planting processes remain, though agreed in an easier way than in soil.

I’m thinking no substrate at all here. Ady places the stems in gaps in existing plants such as Anubias and Buce, and gaps in the hardscape with the stems held in place by virtue of their own leaves.

Where that isn’t possible, in more open areas, the stems could simply be weighted down I suppose, through a ceramic ring perhaps, or a clip, or maybe even the sponge covered lead weights that bunched pond plants come in (though I’m not sure of long term issues with having permanently lead in a tank).


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## Wookii (20 Jul 2020)

Thinking about carpeting plants, I see quite a few carpet plants sold on so called ‘scapers pads’:

Dennerle Scaper Pad Live Aquarium Plant - Brazilian Micro Sword Lilaeopsis brasiliensis Pad 5x5 cm Carpet

Does anyone ever used on of these and know what the actual base pad is made of?





My idea here is you could cut a larger ‘pad’ to cover a specific area and shape of the scape and again plant it up without soil. It would then be easy to remove to re-dress or clean.


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## dw1305 (20 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> I’m thinking no substrate at all here.... I see quite a few carpet plants sold on so called ‘scapers pads’


I ended up with a stolon of _Lilaeopsis brasiliensis _a couple of years ago, and I didn't have anywhere to plant it (my tanks aren't carpet friendly) so I left I floating in the tank, in the upper layers of the moss, until I could find somewhere to put it. 

Several years later it is still growing and still floating. It hasn't grown that much, but there is definitely more plant than there was.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (20 Jul 2020)

Hi @Wookii

Please take a look at the following thread:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/substrate-requirements-suitable-products.59389/

It was in the above thread that @zozo said:


zozo said:


> Plant roots are rather adaptive, up to a microscopic level with rhizoids, as long there are nutrients you can grow plants on glass marbles or solely in the water without substrate.



JPC


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## sparkyweasel (20 Jul 2020)

Hornwort is a stem plant that doesn't root in the substrate. You can anchor it in place with those ceramic rings.


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## Zeus. (20 Jul 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> Hornwort is a stem plant that doesn't root in the substrate. You can anchor it in place with those ceramic rings.


Used ceramic rings for stems for some time, works well IME with EI dosing


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## Witcher (20 Jul 2020)

I have densely planted tank and quite often rooted actively growing plants can push the others next to them (replanted ones without roots etc) out of the substrate - sometimes it takes month or two before I notice that - and I can notice that only because I'm waving plants with my hands occasionally, nip them and other stuff, but there is no visible difference in the plant health. Plants which I'm 100% sure can grow without substrate (at least in my tank) - just floating vertically in the water column: myriophyllum mattogrosense, hottonia palustris, rotala macrandra, pogostemon stellatus, pogostemon erectus, limnophila aromatica, bacopa caroliniana, limnophila sessiflora, ludwigia inclinata, althernanthera reineckii, poloygonum sao paulo, cardamine lyrata, eleocharis vivipara, didiplis diandra, lobelia cardinalis, ranunculus papulentus.

Some of them will very likely develop aerial roots - but I think this is quite normal at these conditions.

There is important thing which needs to be added - when I was testing extremely low levels of nitrates (for coloration etc) - some of them were quickly melting (r. papulentus, c. lyrata) so I think it's crucial to have water column constantly fed, without any ferts going to 0ppm.


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## Wookii (20 Jul 2020)

Zeus. said:


> Used ceramic rings for stems for some time, works well IME with EI dosing



Is that what you do in you current tank instead of planting in the substrate?


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## jaypeecee (20 Jul 2020)

Hi Folks,

Does everything that is being said above about stem plants equally apply to rosette plants such as Echinodorus?

JPC


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## tiger15 (20 Jul 2020)

Stem plants do not need substrate to uptake nutrients, but won’t  develop anchoring roots without substrate,   I have tied stems with fish line and cotton thread, superglued to rock, weighed down with metal tie  into crevices, and inserted bunch stems through suction cup rings (one used to hold heater), but they all failed eventually.  The stem would rot and break away above the constraints eventually.  

Since I cannot have substrate rooted plants with digging cichlid, I love ideas that can grow stems successfully substrate free long term.  Potted plants, inserting stems into crevices, floating Horwort, or vining stems don’t count.


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## Wookii (20 Jul 2020)

tiger15 said:


> Stem plants do not need substrate to uptake nutrients, but won’t  develop anchoring roots without substrate,   I have tied stems with fish line and cotton thread, superglued to rock, weighed down with metal tie  into crevices, and inserted bunch stems through suction cup rings (one used to hold heater), but they all failed eventually.  The stem would rot and break away above the constraints eventually.
> 
> Since I cannot have substrate rooted plants with digging cichlid, I love ideas that can grow stems successfully substrate free long term.  Potted plants, inserting stems into crevices, floating Horwort, or vining stems don’t count.



I guess it depends how you are running the tank. In a high tech tank the stems should be growing quickly enough that you need to pull the bunches out, cut off a few inches and replace in the tank, every couple of weeks.


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## tiger15 (20 Jul 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Does everything that is being said above about stem plants equally apply to rosette plants such as Echinodorus?
> 
> JPC


The difference between rosette and stem is that rosette grows much stronger root system. I have  Echinodorus  grown in  hydroponic pot with inert gravel and the roots completely filled up the pots and beyond.  The gravel acts more as weight than growth media as all aquatic plants  can uptake nutrients entirely from the water column.  So it is easier to grow rosette substrate free than stems.


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## jaypeecee (20 Jul 2020)

Hi @tiger15 


tiger15 said:


> So it is easier to grow rosette substrate free than stems.



Thank you so much. Personally, that helps me a lot. But, I guess the roots of rosettes can look a bit messy if not covered with a deep enough layer of inert substrate material?

JPC


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## Zeus. (20 Jul 2020)

Wookii said:


> Is that what you do in you current tank instead of planting in the substrate?



Or just squeeze them in-between other plants stems, if they hold there fine


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## Ady34 (20 Jul 2020)

Interesting topic. I know the stem plants I utilise are relitively easy. I think to create a stem tank based on this method would be tricky unless suitable plants were used. The ludwigia I have is a large stem really with big leaves which make anchoring simple and effective. Smaller more delicate stems are more difficult and floaters more likely. You need a good dense cluster of plants to ‘plant’ into also. Mature submerse specimens also would improve the chances of success as they would be easier to plant.
Some plants such as cryptocoryne that are believed to be heavy root feeders are now available as plants on lava rock which then feed primarily from the water column. Monte Carlo is often used on hardscape now and also does very well. I think plants adapt, so if you can find a way to position it in the scape you don’t need a substrate, just good water column fertilisation.


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## Jayefc1 (20 Jul 2020)

Its is also.posible to grow a carpet plant such as HC or mc without soil  as long as the substrate can allow the roots to hold 





There is soil in the back for the stems but none at the front where the HC was pushed between the rocks and it spread to almost a full carpet


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## tiger15 (21 Jul 2020)

Ady34 said:


> Some plants such as cryptocoryne that are believed to be heavy root feeders are now available as plants on lava rock which then feed primarily from the water column. Monte Carlo is often used on hardscape now and also does very well. I think plants adapt, so if you can find a way to position it in the scape you don’t need a substrate, just good water column fertilisation.


Do not assume  heavy rooters mean heavy root feeder.  Rosette plants such as Crypt and sword have heavy roots because they thrive in streams that are subject  to periodic fast current and must develop strong roots to anchor into steam beds.  

Do you have links to non epiphytes grown in larva rock.  I like to find out how they make them stick.

I know Tropica sell plants grown in coconut fiber that can be planted  without removal.  If you find crevices to insert these plants, they are technically substrate free and will likely work with rosettes, not with stems though because stems  need to be periodically replanted  to reduce height and remove bare bottoms.


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## Wookii (21 Jul 2020)

Does anyone have any thoughts on the long term use of the typical leaded plant weights for securing stems? i.e. is there any potential risk of lead leaching into the water column, particularly in the soft slightly acid water of a CO2 injected aquarium? (Assuming the weights are actually lead, and not some alternative alloy).


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## dw1305 (21 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> and not some alternative alloy


They aren't lead (Pb), apparently they are a magnesium/zinc alloy. 





Wookii said:


> any thoughts on the long term use of the typical leaded plant weights for securing stems?


I think they will look pretty ugly. I'm not personally  a great fan of bare bottom tanks, and I would go for a shallow layer of cosmetic sand. 

cheers Darrel


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## Ady34 (21 Jul 2020)

tiger15 said:


> Do not assume  heavy rooters mean heavy root feeder.  Rosette plants such as Crypt and sword have heavy roots because they thrive in streams that are subject  to periodic fast current and must develop strong roots to anchor into steam beds.
> 
> Do you have links to non epiphytes grown in larva rock.  I like to find out how they make them stick.
> 
> I know Tropica sell plants grown in coconut fiber that can be planted  without removal.  If you find crevices to insert these plants, they are technically substrate free and will likely work with rosettes, not with stems though because stems  need to be periodically replanted  to reduce height and remove bare bottoms.


Yep, that’s the point I was making, seems most plants can uptake from the water column happily 
Tropica grow epiphytes and crypts on lava rock:
https://tropica.com/en/plants/aquadecor/decorrock/👍🏻


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## Wookii (21 Jul 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, They aren't lead (Pb), apparently they are a magnesium/zinc alloy.



Thanks Darrel, I suspected that might be the case as true lead is a big 'no-no' these days, similar to fishing shot.



dw1305 said:


> I think they will look pretty ugly. I'm not personally  a great fan of bare bottom tanks, and I would go for a shallow layer of cosmetic sand.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Just to clarify, I don't intend for the weights to be visible. Nor would the bottom of the tank be bare - it would be completely covered in hardscape - rocks, wood, and a sprinkling of cosmetic sand around the edges, It's just that there would be no soil or gravel, the stem would be secured by some other means. See @Ady34 initial hardscape to see what I mean:





Imagine something similar to that covered in epiphytes  and mosses, with bunches of stems positioned in between. In fact you don't really need to imagine it, as that is exactly what Ady has done with the tank (see the image in my first post). I'm considering a similar technical approach, though of course a different layout. 

I may still have soil, in some specific limited locations, but I'm exploring the possibility of eliminating it completely.


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## Wookii (21 Jul 2020)

tiger15 said:


> Do you have links to non epiphytes grown in larva rock.  I like to find out how they make them stick.





Ady34 said:


> Yep, that’s the point I was making, seems most plants can uptake from the water column happily
> Tropica grow epiphytes and crypts on lava rock:
> https://tropica.com/en/plants/aquadecor/decorrock/👍🏻



I have some  Schismatoglottis prietoi  in my tank. Though not a crypt, is has a similar root structure - I have it growing equally well both in the soil, and on hardscape. To attach to hardscape I simply cut back the roots, and glued in place. it shot roots out and attached itself all over, to the point that it was actually a complete bugger to remove.


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## dw1305 (21 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





Wookii said:


> Nor would the bottom of the tank be bare - it would be completely covered in hardscape - rocks, wood, and a sprinkling of cosmetic sand around the edges, It's just that there would be no soil or gravel, the stem would be secured by some other means.


I think that should be fine. I'd probably go for @Ady34's rock method, or @Filip Krupa's mesh, very lightly buried.





Wookii said:


> I simply cut back the roots, and glued in place. it shot roots out and attached itself all over, to the point that it was actually a complete bugger to remove.


and the bits removed were very kindly sent to me, and are <"still floating around the tank quite happily">.

cheers Darrel


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## tiger15 (21 Jul 2020)

Ady34 said:


> Yep, that’s the point I was making, seems most plants can uptake from the water column happily
> Tropica grow epiphytes and crypts on lava rock:
> https://tropica.com/en/plants/aquadecor/decorrock/👍🏻


Not just most but all aquatic plants can uptake nutrients entirely from the water column.  This physiological difference distinguishes true aquatic plants from terrestrial marshy plants in that the latter cannot and will die fully submerged.  Many Dutch planters rely on EI water column dosing, inert gravel to anchor plants, and avoid soil completely as replanting stems often in soil is messy.  My cichlid planted tanks have nearly no substrate except for a thin layer of gravel to cover the bottom reflection.  

Tropica sell only one Crypt BeckettII Petchii and one stem Pogostemon helferi that are adapted to attachment to larva rock and by no means universal for other stems and rosettes.  

I think lead weight may be the solution to OP quest for truly substrate free stems.  It is relatively easy to prune and replant stems in  lead weight and find places to high the lead.  Lead is not lead but magnesium zinc alloy.  Zinc is essential plant nutrient in trace quantity but can be slightly toxic to fish and very toxic to shrimp at  higher concentrations.  I used a few lead to tie my stems in gravel filled hydroponic pots but the quantity I use is so small that I have not observed adverse effect on my fish.


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## jaypeecee (22 Jul 2020)

Hi @dw1305

Just did a double-take when reading through this thread and stumbled on the words:


dw1305 said:


> ...bare bottom...



JPC


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