# Matt's emersed setup



## a1Matt (10 Jun 2009)

I have 25 Crypt Parva that are in emersed form already.  I have posted a thread to swap them, but if I get no offers I may try growing them emersed for a little while instead.

Does this setup look OK?...

Equipment wise, I would buy this:
http://www.wilkinsonplus.com/Seed-Trays ... vt/6313240
and this:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?Tab ... &U=Strat15

Method wise...
Plant Parva in pots and rockwool.
Fill propagator with water no more than halfway up the pots (so that some of the roots get air and all of the leaves are exposed).
Sit fogger inside a container inside the propagator, fill container with water thereby completely submerging the fogger.
Place on windowsill.
Leave slots on propagator open and Turn fogger on 5min every 30min or so (will take advice\experiment with timing\slots).
Change water weekly, and dose dry ferts into water column once a week straight after dosing.

Does this seem sound?
From scouring the emersed posts here I can see that high temp is likely to be an issue on the windowsill and that aeration is beneficial - hence keeping the slots open and then adding the fogger to stop things drying out. 
I do not want to go the artifical light route as I want to keep costs down.


I know that Parvas grows incredibly slowly in a tank environment. Do you guys think it will grow any quicker under my proposed emersed conditons? (Bearing in mind I am not ramping up thelighting or CO2, but will have some of the roots exposed.)


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## GreenNeedle (10 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

Unless there is a reason for rockwool I would use plain old compost.  If you use something inert like rockwool you have to master emersed dosing levels. lol

I wouldn't bother with the pots either if you are just wanting to grow Crypts.  Fill thepropogator with standard compost, let the water go up to the substrate level and plant the crypts.  They grow better in compost/soil thanthey do in rockwool 

Need to give Crypts some space too.  I wouldn't bother with the fogger, you'll have to replace water anyway so you may as well just mist daily  The house temperature and a closed lid should get plenty of humidity.  In fact you may even need to put something under one side of the lid just to stop the heat getting too high.

You may need some more height than that propgator allows too.  Crypts grown emersed can get much bigger than submersed.  Not seen how tall Parva get yet.  Not one of the popular Crypts to be grown emersed. People tend to focus on the larger ones.

AC


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## a1Matt (10 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

Very helpful indeed, thanks Andy 

Compost it is then.  I will put some osmocote granules in with it (as I have plenty of these already). I already have a mister so I will use that daily at first.  I can always buy a fogger at a later date if I keep the experiment going and get fed up with misting.  That drops the initial cost down to just Â£3 for the propagator. Result!

I have measured the parva and in their emersed form they are twice the size of submersed, but still low enough to fit in the propagator (Parva being the smallest crypt out there helps  )

One last question... do you know what the upper safe temp is likely to be for this setup?


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## GreenNeedle (10 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

No idea. lol.  I wouldn't worry too much though.  As long as it doesn't get too hot.  Leave something in between lid and bas to prop it open a little or open a vent slightly if you find it gets too hot.

AC


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## SO19Firearms (10 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

The ideal nutrient temp is probably about 23 C - Upper limit for the air.....i'd stick to 29 C (from Tropica)
Whatever you choose for nutrient delivery it might be worth having the pH at the low end (5.5 - 6) if you can too.

Nigel


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## a1Matt (10 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

Cheers guys.

This afternoon I bought a propagator, planted it up (in compost with osmocote granules) and placed it on a windowsill.

Now I have a really basic question   ... how much do I 'water' the plants? At the moment the compost is so water logged that the plants can only just about stand up in it. Should I keep it at this saturation, or let it dry out to what I would call 'slightly overwatered house plant' saturation? or somewhere inbetween  :?

For those curious, I got the propagator from B&Q for Â£3.50. It has a smoked plastic lid, so I (slightly frustratingly) can not see in unless I peer though the vents, but I figured that it could be good to help against scorching\overheating from direct sunlight so don't mind too much.


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## GreenNeedle (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

The substrate should be moist, not dry and not wet.

Basically using compost you should be able to see it without there being any puddles.  Don't be too finicky over the level with stems. rosettes.

Too much surface water and you will get fungus and all sorts of mucky growth on top of the compost.  Err more towards it being level or just below the compost.  Therefore if the light glistens on the surface should be about right.

HC or very low plants the water needs to be kept at a perfect level.  It tends to avoid the puddles and grow around them   You won't have this problem with Crypts 

I find a spray a day replaces any lost.

AC



AC


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## a1Matt (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

Another cracking post Andy  

My plan of action tonight then is...

Add a little more compost to soak up the excess water (I intentionally underfilled the compost in case I needed to do this).

To fill up the propagator completely I am going to add the following from my main tank:
one crypt affinis plantlet 
one crypt wendtii 'green' 
Might also sneak in a sprig of HC and a some clumps of moss inbetween the crypts.


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## Superman (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

Hi Matt,

When the water level in my tank reaches the level of the substrate, I plan to put moss around the base of the plants to stop any fungal growth.

Good to see a few of us trying different things.

I can recommend the fogger as in mine it's meant the plants want to grow upwards rather than hugging the water!

Cheers,
Clark


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## a1Matt (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

I agree, it is nice that there are people here trying different things.  Having the support of this forum has given me the confidence to try it.  

I plan to put moss in simply as I have some and like the look of it more than soil.  It is great to hear that it has practical benefits as well 

I might add a fogger, but for now am curious to see how well things start off without it, especially as I will have a mix of emersed and submersed plants in there.


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## Dave Spencer (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

I am currently finding that one spray per day of EI water from one of my tanks is keeping all my plants happy. The humidity levels seem to be naturally high on their own.

Dave.


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## a1Matt (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*



			
				SO19Firearms said:
			
		

> Whatever you choose for nutrient delivery it might be worth having the pH at the low end (5.5 - 6) if you can too.



I found an article which also pronounces the importance of a low PH in growing crypts emersed.

When discussing substrates it mentions moss, not just as ground cover but as a low ph substrate in its own right.

This gives me another something to play about with in my setup. I might take a big hack out of my main tanks moss wall so that I can plant some of the Parva in moss.  

The article is here: http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazin ... ersed.html


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## GreenNeedle (11 Jun 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

I use moss on top of the rockwool on all my pots except HC.  Stops the rockwool going green as it blocks out the light.

I don't use anything on compost though.  I just leave the water below the level.

AC


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## johnny70 (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*

got any pics of the set-up? fascinating stuff this plant stuff isn't it   

you cultivating any of your mosses like this?


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## a1Matt (8 Jul 2009)

*Re: Will this emersed setup work with Crypt Parva?*



			
				johnny70 said:
			
		

> got any pics of the set-up? fascinating stuff this plant stuff isn't it
> 
> you cultivating any of your mosses like this?



I am trying some of the mosses, it is early days, but so far they have grown very healthily and seem to be maintenance free as well. I did not mention this in your thread as I have only had them in for a couple of weeks, so can not confidently recommend it.

My one problem so far is a bug infestation in the propagator.  It turns out that the compost I used already had them in it (was an already opened bag that had been sitting in the garage for a year).

It was only meant to be an epxeriment to start with, so I have not worried about it.

But! I have got the bug (pun intentional   ) now, so am moving onto my Mark 2 setup.  This uses an old 3 foot tank, everything in individual pots, with akadama and osmocote substrate and moss as a top layer.  The individual pots are great as I can now easily label and keep different crypts and mosses and not worry about them getting mixed up. It is also easier to just chop and change things as the fancy takes me.

I will post pics and species lists at some point in the near future.....


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## Steve Smith (8 Jul 2009)

Sounds great Matt   The more I read about people's experiences with home propogation, the more I want to give it a try...


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## a1Matt (8 Jul 2009)

My reason for doing it is to keep hold of plants that I do not want in my main tank right now, but may want in the future.  It seems to be the lowest maintnenance way of doing this. As is the way with this planted tank game it will probably evolve into something else (crypt paludarium anyone....  )

I bet you have all the 'ingredients' to set one up lying around already....


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## Steve Smith (8 Jul 2009)

Got plenty of pots, just looking at cheap propagators.  Â£4 for a basic 38x24" with plastic lid from Homebase is OK.  Hey, if I were to buy rockwool plugs, what size would I need?  I'm guessing the 1" square ones?


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## a1Matt (8 Jul 2009)

Have you got an old tank with a lid\cover glass? ... if so that is your propagator sorted for free. If not Â£4 is cheap as chips anyway 

I don't know about the rockwool sizing, I guess check out some hydroponic shops\ebay and see what is offered. (I wonder if it is available in a sheet and then you could cut it to size).


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## GreenNeedle (8 Jul 2009)

SteveUK said:
			
		

> Got plenty of pots, just looking at cheap propagators.  Â£4 for a basic 38x24" with plastic lid from Homebase is OK.  Hey, if I were to buy rockwool plugs, what size would I need?  I'm guessing the 1" square ones?



Under bed clear storage boxes with Lids from Wilko are Â£4.50 and approx 60cm x 40cm footprint.  they are about 40cm tall too so they are a much more cost effective option than propogators or tanks 

I got mine 2 for Â£8 from instore.

the good thing about these is you can pick the box up and put it outside during the warmer months and then bring it back inside when the weather starts to cool saving you 4 months of electricity 

If you choose the Rockwool route then forget the plugs.  You pay for someone else to cut the rockwool up.  Buy a 'slab'.  they are usually 120cm long by 20cm wide and 7.5cm deep and would cost about a fiver from Hydroponics stores or Â£9 shipped on the net.  Then pull it apart or cut it up yourself to stuff into pots and you will get about 4x the amount that you would've got for the same money with the cubes.

I personally am changing my whole setup over to standard multipurpose cheapo compost.  Its more natural in creating a 'marsh/bog' style habitat, has all the goodies already in it so no need to fertilise and no open water.  Open water has a habit of getting Cyano I have found   The plants seem to grow better too 

AC


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## a1Matt (8 Jul 2009)

Here is the only snap I have of my setup:


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## aaronnorth (8 Jul 2009)

nice one, i just need a propagator now


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## Steve Smith (8 Jul 2009)

Hmn, interesting stuff... I have a little clearseal tank (about 40cm) with a black plastic lid I could use to start me off.  It's just finding somewhere to put it! 

So you reckon soil is the way forward at the moment?  I'm looking to grow on crypts and mosses I think.


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## Steve Smith (8 Jul 2009)

I bought some plant pot tags in Wilko at lunch.  One step closer


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## a1Matt (8 Jul 2009)

Nice one.  I need to get me some of those, am struggling to remember what is in what pot already


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## Steve Smith (8 Jul 2009)

Thinking about it, I don't actually know what crypts I have at the moment, so they're kinda useless untill I ID them!  I'll have to post up some photos in the plant section to get confirmation IDs!


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## johnny70 (8 Jul 2009)

How often/how long is the mini fogger on for? its 36w that seems an awful lot of power for such a small thing


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## a1Matt (8 Jul 2009)

The mini fogger was in my original plan, but it turned out that the humidty was high enough without it, so I never got one.  (FWIW, I think the wattage was quite steep as well.) I expect if I do ever get one that growth would increase as a result.  

Instead, I got a hygrometer off ebay (secondhand for Â£1 inc p+p) and aim to keep the humidity between 80 and 90%
It is very easy to do, you get a feel for how much to leave the cover glass open\lid propped up quite quickly.

I found it is temperature that you have to keep an eye on, as it is very easy for things to get too hot from direct sunlight.


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## Steve Smith (10 Jul 2009)

I'm going down the compost route, as Supercoley suggested.  I'm just concerned the pots I'm going to use (standard tropica/AquaFleur) won't hold the compost too well.  What I might do is buy some small plastic pots from homebase or something.

I'll start my own thread this weekend if I get too it, and stop hijacking everyone elses


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## GreenNeedle (10 Jul 2009)

I don't use compost in pots.  I use compost without pots.  The whole of the propogator.

I use pots for rockwool 

AC


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## daniel19831123 (2 Aug 2009)

Just wondering if there is a pump circulating the water in your tank? Is that pogostemon helferi and Hc in one of the pots? I've been wanting to grow P. Helferi emersed as well but not sure how quick they grow compare to the submerged version. I'll be starting an emersed setup after I moved to Manchester. I was going to go with Top soil initially but then changed my mind and wanting to use the akadama from stripping the tank. Then I changed my mind about using rock wool slab. Now I'm tempting to use Jiffy Peat Pellet lol. Anyone tried using this in propagating aquatic plant emersed? The ph is right for crypt but not so sure about the nutrient. I supposed you can soak it in tank water fertilised with EI and then just use that for planting. Any thoughts?

Dan


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## a1Matt (3 Aug 2009)

Well it was pogostemon helferi, but it never made the transtition to emersed growth.  It never even made the effort! just stayed in its submersed form for a month or two, looked quite healthy, then started withering and died over the last two weeks.  All my plants that have a similar form emersed and submersed converted really easily (staurogyne, anubia, HC in particular).  I guess there was not much to convert.  On the whole those plants with different growth patterns (mainly stems) almost died completely but a little bit transitioned, and then they are growing back healthily from that.

I do not use a pump.  I just let the water sit and change it out once a month or so.  The plants do not seem to care about this, but the water looks pretty rank after a few weeks (hence my WC schedule).  I was quite generous with the osmocote granules, so I expect that will cover me for fertilisation for the length of the setup - a few months (I'll add more if I see signs of deficiencies). I'd be confident that 'loaded' tank water will be ample fertilisation.

As to growing mediums... growth was quicker with compost than with akadama. I expect peat pellets will work well too.  I was going to try them as well, but was too tight to buy them    (especially as I had everything else needed already to hand). 

Other updates.... 

I noticed some tiny mites in the tank a while back.  They have multiplied slowly but surely and I just left them as they did not seem to be doing any harm.  This week though they seemed to have increased exponentially and and I can now clearly see they are destroying my crypts which is sad to watch. (Although luckily these are all surplus from my main tank, so I will not lose any species as such.)  Does anyone have any tips for getting rid of them?  I do not want to use any chemicals as these plants will end up back in an aquarium at some point.  

I was thinking that if it were a long term emersed setup I would turn it into a paludarium and add some fish that could eat the mites that are underwater.  With maybe occasionally flooding the rest of the tank so they can clean up everywhere else as well....  It is not a long term scape though     In fact if I do not get rid of the mites soon it will probably not be lasting much longer at all!


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## daniel19831123 (4 Aug 2009)

I've been told that regular flooding every 3-4 days will not only prevent fungus from growing,  it also stop mites from developing. How much water column fertilisation is too much for an emersed setup? Too much fertiliser and the plant wither, so does that mean I am trying to aim for the same concetration as I do with EI water column dosing? i.e Nitrate 20ppm, Phosphate 1ppm and K 20-30ppm?


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## a1Matt (4 Aug 2009)

I do not know what exact levels to shoot for... I would keep it simple and say that if you already have a tank with EI then just use the water from this. Hopefully someone with a bit more expertise in this area will chime in with a more authoratitive reply for you...

Thanks for the tip on flooding   .  I will drown the plants and then drain again and see what effect it has.
I wonder how long to flood them for... I think I will go for 24 hours.  (Little and often is probably better, but I am dragging buckets of water up and down stairs to do this, so will go for one heavy hit instead.)


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## MarkyG (4 Aug 2009)

hi matt you could try neem oil


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## a1Matt (5 Aug 2009)

Nice one Mark   

I am a big fan of oils.  As testament I use oil based soap and shampoo   It is really good stuff ... http://www.drbronner.com/DBMS/OLEU02/Eu ... idSoap.htm

Will try flooding and then follow it up with neem oil.  I'll update here in a week or three with progress.


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## MarkyG (5 Aug 2009)

if none of these work you could try Biological control if you can work out what might you have. http://www.defenders.co.uk/ used these few years ago


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## jonny_ftm (10 Aug 2009)

Hi,

Look at my emrsed starting nano topic. I wrote everything about growing them emersed. I'm now growing C. Parva, P. Helferi, E. Tenellus and just started Eleocharis acicularis.

P. Helferi grows much faster than in water, C. Parva is very slow, tenellus is crazy fast. Never had any melting issues

About ferts, go with an EI cycled tank and mist 1-3x/week and decrease progressively to 1-2x/15d to keep soil moisted. Misting can't compensate for low hygrometry: target 80% humidity, 70-75% being lowest ideally, plant leaves should dry between mistings

Never dry soil but don't flood it too, level water to 0.5-1cm below surface

Don't use casting alone, mix it with sand, it will add consistency, aeration and helps plants to establish. I mixed with Flourite Black Sand for micro-enrichement, since I'm gonna flood it later, it wasn't a bad investement

For success guaranty, freshly bought plantlets means less effort to adapt, as they are grown emersed by major distributers


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