# High Nitrates readings



## FrankR (21 Feb 2022)

Hi guys,

About 10 days ago (Feb 12, 2022) I started cycling a 30lt nano tank. I decided to go with the dark start method. So, I added Tropica Aqua Soil Powder, installed the canister filter, filled it with dechlorinated (Seachem Prime) tap water and added Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride. All this time the Seachem Ammonia Alert badge shows below 0.05 ppm of Ammonia, so I bought some API liquid tests to start monitoring the process. Also, I'm topping up with RO water. About 100-150 ml every 2 days. Temperature is 28 C.

On Feb 19 the readings were:
pH: 6
NH3/NH4: 4 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
Added a dosage of Tetra Safe Start.

On Feb 20
pH: 6
NH3/NH4: 4 ppm
NO2: 0 pm
I know that the Seachem Ammonia Alert badge measures free ammonia, while the API tests measure total ammonia. Based on online calculators the free ammonia in the tank would be around 0.0029 ppm. So I added more of Dr Tim's Ammonia.

Today I thought I should measure Nitrates, just out of curiosity.
pH: 6
NH3/NH4: 6
NO2: 0
NO3: 40-50 ppm

I did some research and the high amount of Nitrates is probably because of the Aqua Soil. Also, the low pH is delaying the cycling process.

My question is, how do I proceed?


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## hypnogogia (21 Feb 2022)

The aqua soil leeches ammonia, so that will stay high. From what I’ve read, you just keep going for longer, and when ready to plant, do a really big water change.


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## FrankR (21 Feb 2022)

Thank you for your reply @hypnogogia .
Yes, looks like it will take longer than the expected 4-6 weeks. But I don't want it to take too long.
I'm changing 50% of water right now. I'm adding tap water with Prime to raise the pH a bit (around 6.4 most probably). Also I'll raise the temperature to 30 C.
I guess that would help to speed up the process a bit. Does that make sense or I'm just chasing my tail?


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## Konsa (21 Feb 2022)

Hi
Do not worry about temperature. Keep it in the normal for the future system range.You want more oxygen to speed up the process not temperature increase. 
Regards Konstantin


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## rebel (22 Feb 2022)

You can proceed as if you didn't record the nitrates. They don't matter in the dark cycling.

Wait for ammonia and nitrite to read negative, do 100% water change and then add the fishies.


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## sparkyweasel (22 Feb 2022)

I would stop adding ammonium as the Aquasoil provides it, and too much can kill off the micro-organisms you are trying to cultivate.
As @Konsa says, I would keep the temp as it will be when the tank is planted and stocked, and I would do the same with the pH. I want to cultivate an assemblage of micro-organisms that will thrive in the tank conditions, so I try to keep those conditions stable from the start.


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## sparkyweasel (22 Feb 2022)

If you fancy a lot of reading, try this thread:





						Cycling a new tank with the old one still running, anyway to speed it up?
					

Hi all,  I have a planted 120 litre tank with fish and shrimp, and I'm going to move all this over to a 200 litre tank. I was wondering if there way anyway of having a quicker/easier cycle by somehow using the old tank? I can't find anything on this anywhere but I thought if I put the new filter...



					www.ukaps.org
				



and the ones it links to.


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## FrankR (22 Feb 2022)

Thanks for your replies guys!


Konsa said:


> Hi
> Do not worry about temperature. Keep it in the normal for the future system range.You want more oxygen to speed up the process not temperature increase.
> Regards Konstantin


I've read that raising the temperature during the cycle helps the development of the bacteria, most probably because the amount of the free ammonia (NH3, which is the food of the bacteria) increases with higher temperature and pH.

I did a 50% water change yesterday with conditioned tap water and set the temperature to 29 C.
Today's readings:

pH: 6.5
NH3+NH4: 4 ppm
NO2: 0 ppm
NO3: 40ppm
KH: 1 dKH
GH: 8 dGH
TDS: 160 ppm

I use this calculator to see how much free ammonia there's in the tank. Based on these readings, I have 0.01 of free ammonia, which is far better than the 0.0029 I had yesterday. Even the Ammonia Alert badge shifted a bit from yellow to a more green-ish yellow. I guess that's a small boost to the cycling process, right?


rebel said:


> You can proceed as if you didn't record the nitrates. They don't matter in the dark cycling.
> 
> Wait for ammonia and nitrite to read negative, do 100% water change and then add the fishies.


You're right. I know that plants take up Nitrates, so, yeah I won't be bothered to measure them again in the near future.
So, I guess now all I have to do is wait till Nitrites show up and then both NH3 and NO2 go to 0.


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## Konsa (22 Feb 2022)

Hi
The amount of free Ammonia  is not very relevant if the bacteria is oxygen limited .
The bacterial growth and nitrification  are Oxygen dependent processes and you can throw as much food for the bacteria as you want  or try to increase metabolic rates by increasing temperature but if you don't maintain good oxygen levels you wont get very far.Oxygen is the real metric of nitrification. 
Regards Konstantin


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## GHNelson (22 Feb 2022)

Use this Tutorial method below!








						Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!
					

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new,....it has benefits especially for a new set - up. I try and cover at least 50% of the water surface minimum.  1. Improves water...



					www.ukaps.org
				



hoggie


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## FrankR (23 Feb 2022)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> The amount of free Ammonia  is not very relevant if the bacteria is oxygen limited .
> The bacterial growth and nitrification  are Oxygen dependent processes and you can throw as much food for the bacteria as you want  or try to increase metabolic rates by increasing temperature but if you don't maintain good oxygen levels you wont get very far.Oxygen is the real metric of nitrification.
> Regards Konstantin


I moved the lily pipe a bit higher, so that it drags surface water and air. Is it enough to oxygenate the water?








GHNelson said:


> Use this Tutorial method below!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know if I can add any plants now. No lights.


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## Konsa (23 Feb 2022)

Hi
that will do the job.
The stems advice is for a different scenario when you plant from the get go without dark start but can be applied to your setup later when you finish the dark start and plant the tank.Having fast growing plants will help for the  system to mature and balance itself.You can keep them or change them later if you wish.
I personally like to have at least one rampant growing stem plant and some floating plants in all my tanks.It makes life easier 
Regards Konstantin


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## erwin123 (23 Feb 2022)

FrankR said:


> I moved the lily pipe a bit higher, so that it drags surface water and air. Is it enough to oxygenate the water?





I got this usb pump from China seller. cost me US$3.5 including shipping (shipping to EU may be more).  The bubbles on the plants are from the pump....


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## FrankR (23 Feb 2022)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> that will do the job.
> The stems advice is for a different scenario when you plant from the get go without dark start but can be applied to your setup later when you finish the dark start and plant the tank.Having fast growing plants will help for the  system to mature and balance itself.You can keep them or change them later if you wish.
> I personally like to have at least one rampant growing stem plant and some floating plants in all my tanks.It makes life easier
> Regards Konstantin


Yes, I'll add fast growing and floating plants when I get to that point. Thank you @Konsa .


erwin123 said:


> I got this usb pump from China seller. cost me US$3.5 including shipping (shipping to EU may be more).  The bubbles on the plants are from the pump....



Not an option. I want minimal equipment in the tank. Just the glass lily pipes and the CO2 drop checker. Everything else is hidden in or behind the cabinet.


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## FrankR (23 Feb 2022)

Another (probably dumb) question. It's been only 10 days since I've set up the tank, so I guess it would take 4-5 more weeks to cycle. Do I have to take readings daily, or weekly?


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Konsa said:


> The amount of free Ammonia is not very relevant if the bacteria is oxygen limited .
> The bacterial growth and nitrification are Oxygen dependent processes and you can throw as much food for the bacteria as you want or try to increase metabolic rates by increasing temperature but if you don't maintain good oxygen levels you wont get very far.Oxygen is the real metric of nitrification.


That is it, oxygen is relevant, ammonia isn't really.

Ammonia addition <"may actually prolong"> the "cycle". Once you've stopped adding any ammonia, and changed some water, things should start improving. 


FrankR said:


> I've read that raising the temperature during the cycle helps the development of the bacteria, most probably because the amount of the free ammonia (NH3, which is the food of the bacteria) increases with higher temperature and pH.


Yes, just ignore what <"you read about cycling">, most of it hasn't caught up with more <"recent advances in scientific knowledge">. 

This is also applies to pH, the microbes that actually perform nitrification in aquarium filters don't require high pH and/or carbonate hardness. These are <"Dr Tim Hovanec's comments"> about <"what we do know about nitrification">.

Free ammonia is  a bit confusing as a term, it is just the portion of the Total Ammoniacal Nitrogen (TAN) <"which comprises NH3">, rather than NH4+, and this is <"dependent mainly on pH"> and is a dynamic equilibrium.





FrankR said:


> Do I have to take readings daily, or weekly?


Entirely up to you.   I would leave it at least another week and then plant the tank, if the ammonia and nitrite levels fall to zero that is ideal, but it isn't a deal breaker if they don't.

In terms of the tank being "fish safe" you just need  reasonably large biomass of plants in active growth, then it is fish safe. The advantage of the looking at the plants is that they can't mislead in the same way that  test could. 


FrankR said:


> You're right. I know that plants take up Nitrates, so, yeah I won't be bothered to measure them again in the near future.


<"Plants also take up"> ammonium (NH4+) and nitrite (NO2-), which is one reason why <"planted tanks are more efficient for biological filtration">.  

cheers Darrel


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## FrankR (23 Feb 2022)

Hi @dw1305 ,

Thank you for your input.
I'll plant the tank first and then, after 1-2 months, when the plants grow and it's a bit more "mature" I'll add the fish.

I was really bad at chemistry, so, please bear with me. I do know that ammonia (NH3) evaporates. How come it builds up and doesn't evaporate when it's in an aquarium?


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## dw1305 (23 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


FrankR said:


> when the plants grow and it's a bit more "mature" I'll add the fish.


That is what  we recommend, <"plant and wait">. It just does away with all the uncertainty, if you aren't sure? You just wait a little bit longer.


FrankR said:


> I do know that ammonia (NH3) evaporates. How come it builds up and doesn't evaporate when it's in an aquarium?


That is right, ammonia (NH3) is a gas and diffuses into water from the gills of fish, the breakdown of proteins etc. and then theoretically from the water back into the atmosphere.  Even though the rate of evaporation would depend on the concentration gradient between the water and the atmosphere,  one thing you have to bear in mind is that ammonia is <"incredibly soluble in water"> so unless you heat the water (all gases are less soluble at higher temperatures) it will remain in solution.


> ........The solubility of ammonia gas in water is extremely high—approximately 460 litres of ammonia gas will dissolve in one litres of water at 20oC......


Another effect of this extreme solubility is that the "escaping tendency" of NH3 molecules from H2O is only about 1/10 of what it is from liquid NH3. We can smell ammonia at very low concentrations, which is why you can get the "ammonia smell" if a fish dies etc.

I've had the good luck/ misfortune to visit quite a <"few sewage treatment works"> and on warm days your eyes really water.

cheers Darrel


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## FrankR (23 Feb 2022)

Thank you for being so helpful @dw1305 !


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## FrankR (31 May 2022)

My tank's been running for 3,5 months. I've cycled it (dark start method) for 3 of these months. So, the plants are there for about 15 days. They are growing normally and the HC Cuba has almost covered most of the foreground.
Took some NO3 readings today 

*Tank water*
NO3: 40 mg/l 
pH: 6.5

*Tap water *
NO3: 40 mg/l 
pH:7.5

*RO water* 
NO3: ~30 mg/l 
pH:7.5

I checked the water quality report for my area and the NO3 readings are 32-39 mg/l. So the API test seems accurate.
I've added an Amano shrimp and I've read that even 20 mg/l NO3 is too much for them. Should have tested for NO3 before adding  the shrimp. I know, my bad.
My question is, is there a way to lower the NO3 levels of my tank?


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## Aleman (1 Jun 2022)

Is your RO water really 30mg/l?? If that is the case then you need to replace the membranes and add a DI unit! If you have a DI unit already, replace the resin. If the tap and tank water contain the same amount of nitrate, then using RODI (which should be 0 mg/l) or rainwater, is the only way to reduce it, unless you put a nitrate sequestering pad in the filter of the tank, whioch will strip ALL nitrate meaning your plants will have a hard time growing.


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## FrankR (1 Jun 2022)

Aleman said:


> Is your RO water really 30mg/l?? If that is the case then you need to replace the membranes and add a DI unit! If you have a DI unit already, replace the resin. If the tap and tank water contain the same amount of nitrate, then using RODI (which should be 0 mg/l) or rainwater, is the only way to reduce it, unless you put a nitrate sequestering pad in the filter of the tank, whioch will strip ALL nitrate meaning your plants will have a hard time growing.


Yes it's 30 mg/l. The TDS meter shows 85 ppm. Tap water has 235 ppm TDS. Mind you, I haven't added the DI unit yet and the RO system has been sitting unused but connected to my garden tap (so, full of water) for about 6 months.
Do you reckon that the membrane needs to be replaced?


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## FrankR (1 Jun 2022)

Ok, I've added the DI unit and now TDS is 1 ppm and Nitrates 0 mg/l. I guess it's the DI resin that removes Nitrates and not the membranes.
So, here's what I'm thinking. Do a 50% WC with remineralised RODI water (using Seachem Equilibrium) and that would mean that I'd have about 20 mg/l of NO3 in my tank and maintain the mineral balance. Am I correct?


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## Aleman (1 Jun 2022)

If your RO unit has been sat for 6 monts with water in it, then it's likely that your membranes need replacing! The TDS from my membranes read 4 and 8ppm (with a source of 156, and 210 respectively). Alternatively the 85ppm you are reading in your permeate could be as a result of TDS Creep caused by the ions in the mains water crossing the membrane over time. To rule this out, run 10L of RO water to drain and see what the TDS is then, also don't forget to flush the membrane. you should see the TDS fall.

I wouldn't put 85ppm mater through my DI resin unless I wanted to exhaust it pretty quickly!

Yes if you have 40ppm of nitrate and do a 50% WC with RODI then nitrate should drop to 20ppm ... ish


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## FrankR (1 Jun 2022)

Aleman said:


> If your RO unit has been sat for 6 monts with water in it, then it's likely that your membranes need replacing! The TDS from my membranes read 4 and 8ppm (with a source of 156, and 210 respectively). Alternatively the 85ppm you are reading in your permeate could be as a result of TDS Creep caused by the ions in the mains water crossing the membrane over time. To rule this out, run 10L of RO water to drain and see what the TDS is then, also don't forget to flush the membrane. you should see the TDS fall.
> 
> I wouldn't put 85ppm mater through my DI resin unless I wanted to exhaust it pretty quickly!
> 
> Yes if you have 40ppm of nitrate and do a 50% WC with RODI then nitrate should drop to 20ppm ... ish


I flushed the membrane when I installed it, but never flushed it for maintenance since then. Thanks for the tip!


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## FrankR (1 Jun 2022)

The RO membrane definitely needed flushing.
The new TDS readings are 
23 ppm without the DI unit
 0 ppm with the DI unit

I have another question about nitrates in a planted tank.
I've read that most aquatic plants prefer to use ammonia, rather than nitrates, to live and grow. I quote:


> Diana Walstad in her book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, says that aquatic plants take up ammonium more quickly. In the case of Dwarf Water lettuce, “the turn over” time was found to be 4 hours, while nitrates turnover required a full 20 hours. Therefore, the fact that most terrestrial plants grow better with nitrates does not change the fact that for aquatic plants, nitrates are not their first choice.


Does that mean that if there's a production of ammonia (i.e. fish waste, fish food, etc.) in the tank and very low nitrates (<10ppm), plants still grow normally?


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