# Cloudy sky



## Andrew Butler (28 Nov 2018)

Current

Here's my latest attempt at a planted aquarium; started to plant on 28/11/18

Tank:
Aquascaper 900

Lighting:
Twinstar 900S

Filtration:
2x Oase biomaster thermo 600

Co2:
Fire extinguisher to an inline diffuser

Fertiliser:
All in one EI

Hardscape:
Manzanita fixed to a piece of slate

Substrate:
JBL Volcano mineral
JBL Volcano powder
ADA Amazonia

Planting:
Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba
Eleocharis mini
Bucephalandra

The idea is to try a dry start with just the HC and Eleocharis, see firstly how it looks and how the 2 plants grow together. Hopefully the HC will take over most of the tank and I can just have a bit of Eleocharis appearing here and there with certain areas having more than others and end up with an almost 'one chop' carpet. Depending on how this goes will help me decide what, if anything else will be added into the carpet.
Just before flooding I plan to add some Buces to the tree.

How it looks as of 28/11/18 just after planting, undecided whether to add anymore Eleocharis or not.


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## Andrew Butler (6 Dec 2018)

1 week in; no real difference - oh aside from a bit of fungal growth starting on the wood.


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## Tommy (6 Dec 2018)

Looks really good Andrew


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## oscar (6 Dec 2018)

Very nice hardware set up, aquascape looks great already. Keep the diary up, will look terrific once the grasses fill in


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## foxfish (7 Dec 2018)

Do you have any heat inside the tank, the glass looks very clear?
How long do you have the lights on for?
I have had some love fungus appear, even full on mushrooms sometimes.


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## Andrew Butler (7 Dec 2018)

foxfish said:


> Do you have any heat inside the tank, the glass looks very clear?


No direct heat in or under the tank, the room is quite warm though.
The glass has been wiped off for the photos.


foxfish said:


> How long do you have the lights on for?


12 hours a day at the moment.


foxfish said:


> I have had some love fungus appear, even full on mushrooms sometimes.


It's only on the wood; at the moment at least so think it's something in that.
Did you try and battle the fungus at all? - if so details would be great.


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## Lee iley (7 Dec 2018)

Does look nice. It will fill in nicely once plants Starr to grow.


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## foxfish (7 Dec 2018)

No, I have never had any long term issues with fungus but I have read about a few bad cases!

I have found the most successful method when using artificial light, comes when you heat the inside of the tank above ambient room temperature.
This causes very hight amounts of humidity inside the tank, I use 12 hours of light as well but I don’t open the top unless I need to do some maintainance.
However I have watched many threads on here, where folk have experienced good strong growth without heat and used daily spraying.
When I have seen fungus growth in my tanks, I have left it alone and it has just disappeared over time.
Having said that, there are probably  thousands of different kinds of fungus so I guess you will just have to watch and see how yours develops....


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## Andrew Butler (7 Dec 2018)

foxfish said:


> No, I have never had any long term issues with fungus but I have read about a few bad cases!


I'm sure it's something in the wood which I rather foolishly didn't soak before putting it in, I did give it a good scrubbing etc but don't think this was enough.
I knew I would have problems when I realised I hadn't; after I had planted it that was! 
Let's hope either keeping on top of it will help or someone comes up with an idea to combat it with a chemical of some kind.



foxfish said:


> I have found the most successful method when using artificial light, comes when you heat the inside of the tank above ambient room temperature.


I thought about adding a heat mat but it's then getting it out from under the aquarium afterwards.



foxfish said:


> I don’t open the top unless I need to do some maintainance


When having a read around I found this to be quite a common thing to allow gasses to exchange and that's why I have been doing this.



foxfish said:


> Having said that, there are probably thousands of different kinds of fungus so I guess you will just have to watch and see how yours develops....


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## Edvet (7 Dec 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> which I rather foolishly didn't soak


I would fill it very very slowly, combined with spraying of the wood


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## Andrew Butler (7 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> I would fill it very very slowly, combined with spraying of the wood


Do you mean after the dry start or now?


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## Edvet (7 Dec 2018)

After, unsoaked tends to float


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## Kezzab (7 Dec 2018)

Don't stress about fungus on wood. I've had it loads, it comes off easy and appears to have no bearing on plant health. It'll go away of its own accord, I would not start with chemicals...


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## goldscapes (7 Dec 2018)

Someone on here mentioned making cinnamon water to spray on mould during DSM, I’ve never tried it but maybe that would work here?


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## Pamela jg (8 Dec 2018)

Hello, I love the shape of your manzanita tree.


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## oscar (9 Dec 2018)

As said previously i would not be overly concerned over the fungus on the wood, this should naturally disappear with good husbandry on water changes etc. Going forward when are you planning on filling the tank?!? i would ( only my opinion) start this off ASAP, keeping flow on a nice balance between not disturbing the plants to much but also giving what is needed/ C02/ ferts - some movement..


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## Andrew Butler (10 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> After, unsoaked tends to float


I'd planned to weigh it down and actually thought I would have less problems with it being dry and arranging the soil etc.


Pamela jg said:


> Hello, I love the shape of your manzanita tree.


Thank you; it's 2 pieces fixed together which hopefully won't show.


Kezzab said:


> Don't stress about fungus on wood. I've had it loads, it comes off easy and appears to have no bearing on plant health. It'll go away of its own accord, I would not start with chemicals...





goldscapes said:


> Someone on here mentioned making cinnamon water to spray on mould during DSM, I’ve never tried it but maybe that would work here?





oscar said:


> As said previously i would not be overly concerned over the fungus on the wood, this should naturally disappear with good husbandry on water changes etc. Going forward when are you planning on filling the tank?!? i would ( only my opinion) start this off ASAP, keeping flow on a nice balance between not disturbing the plants to much but also giving what is needed/ C02/ ferts - some movement..


Everything about the fungus is now on this thread, I think your comments have all been answered on there.


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## Andrew Butler (23 Dec 2018)

I forgot to update things but I decided to  just flood it just over a week ago in the end.
Here is how things are looking now............


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## Tim Harrison (23 Dec 2018)

That's quite striking; looking very arty and minimalistic. I quite like it, especially the way you've sloped the soil. Good growth as well compared to when it was first planted.


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## Barbara Turner (23 Dec 2018)

How is the Manzanita fastened down?  I screwed mine to a piece of slate with some stainless screws and it still keeps falling over.


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## Andrew Butler (23 Dec 2018)

Barbara Turner said:


> How is the Manzanita fastened down?  I screwed mine to a piece of slate with some stainless screws and it still keeps falling over.


Exactly the way you describe; a piece of slate with a SS screw through it and into the wood - I have used some silicone but don't think it's really doing a lot. If it keeps falling over then I'd suggest using a bigger piece (footprint) of slate. If you're still struggling then drop me a PM.


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## Andrew Butler (23 Dec 2018)

Edvet said:


> After, unsoaked tends to float


It's not tried to float which is a relief; I think the combined weight of the slate it's fixed to then the lava rock & soil on top has kept it in place. 


Tim Harrison said:


> That's quite striking; looking very arty and minimalistic. I quite like it, especially the way you've sloped the soil. Good growth as well compared to when it was first planted.


Thanks Tim, hopefully when it's grown it it will be easy enough to keep trimmed and I can play around with adding a few different plants in and amongst things, i can also think about adding a few buces to the tree although i actuallly quite like it naked.


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## Barbara Turner (23 Dec 2018)

I had a larger piece of slate before I rescapped but it was really irritating as it stopped me planting anything large close to the wood.  Definitely gone too small this time around.


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## Andrew Butler (23 Dec 2018)

The piece of slate isn't that big; the picture below should give you an idea. I think it might be 150×150mm but certainly no bigger.


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## Andrew Butler (23 Dec 2018)

I've also realised I haven't put the photos of my journey to eliminate the fungus.................
I knew it wouldn't be easy to get the piece of wood and slate out, especially with the volcano mineral under the soil.
A bit of plastic shuttering helped to stop things from collapsing in completely.



I got the wood out eventually; gave it a scrub, put it back in place and covered it back over with volcano mineral.



Put some soil back on top and got it back to looking roughly as it did before.



The reason I decided to try the DSM was I thought the soil stood no chance of staying in place with the slopes I had. I put some tape roughly where the top of the soil was to see how much things moved and (very) slowly and nervously started to add some water  much to my surprise things stayed in place 



Then it was time to start some gentle filtration ; I used the spraybar that came with the Oase as I was waiting for my glassware to arrive and again much to my surprise it still all stayed in place. 



I added a few more plants in and things have settled down.



Just over a week has passed and the soil is still in place; I think I owe a lot of that to the JBL volcano mineral underneath the soil.
Some of the glassware has arrived so I've fitted that in place, I do plan to add another filter and skimmer attachment in the long run.


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## Keith GH (23 Dec 2018)

Andrew

Have you thought about the inhabitants?   On point to remember there is no over head cover for what every you are thinking about.   Unless you are going to grow plants on the tree branches.

Keith


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## Andrew Butler (24 Dec 2018)

Keith GH said:


> Andrew
> 
> Have you thought about the inhabitants?   On point to remember there is no over head cover for what every you are thinking about.   Unless you are going to grow plants on the tree branches.
> 
> Keith


Hi Keith,
I've not settled on inhabitants yet; I'm going to end up closing my 600 down by the looks of things and I have some diamond tetra in there so I might move them over.
I'm now liking the look so far without any stone but am wondering how any shrimp in there will like it with no stone to help with shedding.
I will probably put some buces on the tree branches but I want to let it grow out and get the first trim done before I decide.


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## Keith GH (25 Dec 2018)

Andrew



Andrew Butler said:


> wondering how any shrimp in there will like it with no stone to help with shedding.



I never had any stones when I had my shrimps and never a concern.   A shrimp breeder would be the best to answer that for you as a double check.

Keith


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## DutchMuch (25 Dec 2018)

looks wonderful 

i recommed a buce, super mini red mix.


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## Andrew Butler (29 Dec 2018)

Quick update; now 1 month since planting.

28/11/18




28/12/18


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## TBRO (29 Dec 2018)

Looking lush! Good meadow, perhaps a few accent plants around the tree trunk? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andrew Butler (29 Dec 2018)

TBRO said:


> Looking lush! Good meadow, perhaps a few accent plants around the tree trunk?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I want to let the HC grow in fully befor I add anything else and am probably going to remove the Eleocharis mini until it has grown in fully.
I have some Rotala Bonsai ready in the propagator, will add the Eleocharis back in then see how that gets along together; looking for an almost 1 chop carpet.
Thinking about adding something else in but also thinking the tree when/if planted might do enough on its own.
As always open to suggestions, I would like to make this something easy to maintain though.


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## CooKieS (29 Dec 2018)

That is very minimalistic but it looks great.

I coulnd't resist to add some
Stones on the base of the tree if that was my scape though.

Good growth!


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## Andrew Butler (29 Dec 2018)

CooKieS said:


> That is very minimalistic but it looks great.
> 
> I coulnd't resist to add some
> Stones on the base of the tree if that was my scape though.
> ...


I quite like the minimalist look; I'm unsure what else I will be adding yet and think it could soon be changed from looking minimalistic to busy and a large amount of that will be down to what I decide to plant on the tree.
I've not completely ruled stones out but it's looking more doubtful.


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## Keith GH (30 Dec 2018)

Andrew

You must be very pleased the way the plants are growing.

Keith


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## Andrew Butler (30 Dec 2018)

Thanks @Keith GH 
It's the first time with HC for me so unsure quite how quickly it does grow. I've not been getting as many water changes done as I'd like but that's life.


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## PARAGUAY (30 Dec 2018)

Looking really good ,suppose you could add stone later, as Cookie post, perfect description in scape title


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## Andrew Butler (12 Jan 2019)

Update......................
I had to abandon things due to a trip to hospital. I've just got back and things aren't looking too good but I will start working on things next week hopefully.
Lights off, CO2 off, no ferts and this is what's happened. Fungus from the wood has made its way around the tank and the HC has been growing up instead of out, hopefully I can still save things.


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## CooKieS (12 Jan 2019)

Put everything back on and it should be ok, fungus isn't dangerous once in water.

Hope your Health is Ok


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## foxfish (12 Jan 2019)

Yes I am sure you can kick it back in line, your health is the most important thing though.


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## Andrew Butler (13 Jan 2019)

I'm just wondering whether a bit of a trim might be a good thing or bad thing as it stands.
A big water change is in order today so will hopefully get a load of the fungus sucked up, I might end up putting some shrimp from my other aquarium in too but just worried these might disrupt the soil a bit too much.


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## Jayefc1 (13 Jan 2019)

A few shrimp will be fine and the fungus is nothing a toothbrush and time  can't sort out I would trim and push down the carpet.to encourage it to spread rather than grow up this will still look amazing I get my shrimp from a breeder in Nottingham and he don't have any stone in his tanks


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## Andrew Butler (13 Jan 2019)

I've had a bit of a scrub and water change this morning, I've also added the stock from my 600 I've had to shut down so there are now some Amano and crs in there along with some dwarf ottos and diamond tetra - something I didn't really want to do before sorting this aquarium out but needs must.
some of the HC doesn't seem to have rooted all that well so the trim was only very light as pieces were uprooting; see how the next week or so goes.
I'm going to keep CO2 as high as the livestock will stand and probably add an extra few water changes in this next week or so.
Filters to sort along with a host of other things but the livestock have everything they need apart from a bit of cover maybe

Any advice welcome along with any stocking ideas for the future.


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## Daveslaney (13 Jan 2019)

I find HC always takes a little more time to establish and get a good root hold going. Should be good given a little more time.
Looks good.


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## Kalum (13 Jan 2019)

Sounds like you've been through the wars but hope you're on the up now

Maybe a few floaters to give the fish some cover and in the mean time and remove once the tree is planted?


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## Andrew Butler (13 Jan 2019)

Daveslaney said:


> I find HC always takes a little more time to establish and get a good root hold going. Should be good given a little more time.


I hope so, it seems very loose in the substrate compared to my experience with MC.


Daveslaney said:


> Looks good


The colour isn't what it was; hopefully a good dose of ferts along with some CO2 and light will help things along the way.


Kalum said:


> Maybe a few floaters to give the fish some cover and in the mean time and remove once the tree is planted?


I'm fitting a skimmer sometime soon so this won't work. They were in an iwagumi before so they are used to being in the open, they just don't look as happy.
I will have to consider getting the tree planted up sooner than I had planned.


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## Andrew Butler (18 Jan 2019)

Things are levelling out a little now but want to get a few things sorted this weekend if I can.
Ditching the Oase filter; I just don't rate them so switching back to 2no Fluval G6 which will get flow increased and hopefully help things along too.
If only Fluval made a few adjustments to the G series they would be the near perfect filter.

Ok - moving forward,
@hogan53 suggested planting the tree out with Ludwigia sp mini red which after some though I think could look nice if I could make it work and if it doesn't work out I can just bin it at not such a great expense as Buces!
I'm now looking for some experienced advice into how I would go about this so any and every piece of advice welcomed here, treat me as a novice!
Planting, pruning - you name it, I'll welcome it

Filipe Oliveira has an example on his youtube




There are more vids on his channel if you search 'RedBonsai' or click here which I might have made work 

*EDIT*
After some hunting on video 2/3 in comments Filipe says each one was tied on with fishing line; the big thing I'm unable to find is whether I would need to keep replanting them or whether they would just take to pruning and thicken up, maybe a little like Staurogyne Repens would only there isn't the substrate and there also doesn't really seem to be many visible roots.


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## Siege (18 Jan 2019)

That tree looks fantastic, but mega high maintenance. As good as the Twinstar S is, I’d be surprised if you could do it under that light (note I haven’t watched the video!)

A different suggestion as per our conversation -

Super red as background in middle.
Green stem plant either side, something greedy to eat nutrients.

Ricccardia on the tree.

A few rocks dotted around in front of tree to give sense of depth, pointed to draw your eyeline in?

Buce around rocks.

Maybe a transititional plant. S repens? Something like verticalata dotted around, maybe just a couple of clumps?

HC or Monte Carlo, neither here nor there under high light and co2. Very hard to tell the difference.

Just a few thoughts to keep a low maintence relatively easy grow plant / scape for you?


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## Konsa (18 Jan 2019)

Hi
I will start with potted version and float it for a while.This way U will get fery fast branching on every node.It is wort a thought about some Rottalas too as many of them show creeping habit and get really bushy.I have used Rotala and other stems as floating rafts to battle algae.They do grow fast and very dence.
Regards Konsa


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## Andrew Butler (19 Jan 2019)

Siege said:


> That tree looks fantastic, but mega high maintenance. As good as the Twinstar S is, I’d be surprised if you could do it under that light (note I haven’t watched the video!)


Filipe is using 4x80w T5 it says.
I did suspect it wouldn't be as simple as tying them on and just keeping them trimmed; which I assume it isn't?
Maybe someone could tell me; If I were to plant a stem like this to wood then would I have to continually replant the tips and discard the bases or just keep it trimmed?

Thanks @Siege - you clearly have a vision here which I will have to try and get in my head to understand (using pictures probably).
I'm by far ignoring your suggestions but I had liked the idea of the simplicity / boredom - call it what you like.
I will have to find where I had listed the other plants on the consideration list to dot around.

I had been against mosses but I see why you would think the Riccardia would work.

I realise planting the whole tree out in Buces would cost a small fortune and something if I could find an alternative could be postponed or completely abandoned if the alternative works out.

At the minute I think I will first let the HC grow out and make sure my flow etc is keeping that happy then I can just just the portions out I decide to as time goes on.


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## foxfish (19 Jan 2019)

I think it looks so cool going the way it is, the scape is getting lots of compliments from folk.
I would not rush into changing or adding anything for the moment.
Of course everybody has there own ideas of what looks good, but for me, I love the simplicity and the design.
If you start filling it in with other plants it might just become another good scape, at the moment it looks really interesting and comment  worthy.
Plenty of time to adjust it in the future if (or when) you get bored with this model.
Perhaps the external background could be improved with painting, light or 3D effects.


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## Ady34 (19 Jan 2019)

Hi Andrew,
I know your looking at red plants but it would look incredible as a ‘bonsai tree’ with various sized anubias. Mini, and smaller for scale and realism......
Is the red to imitate a particular tree like a blossom or just for colour aesthetic?

I think stems would get time consuming and a faff tbh with high maintenance, consequently having the best effect for a minimal amount of time. I’d be inclined to go with the slow grower route you are thinking but you’ll have to invest heavily in plant mass to have the immediate effect.

Carpet has filled in great and I agree with foxfish that it is already a high impact aquascape. I also like the fish in there, they are very subtle but will offer you the interest when your sat watching the tank. I’m sure they will be even better when the tree offers them some extra cover.

Cheerio,


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## Andrew Butler (19 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> I love the simplicity and the design


As do I which is why I wanted to just let the HC grow out before adding anything else.
I did put a little Eleocharis sp Mini in but I'm picking that out as the HC is a bit too slow in comparison, can add some back in when the HC is fully grown in - I did get warned this could happen but had some Eleocharis sp Mini to put in and see how it went.



foxfish said:


> Perhaps the external background could be improved with painting, light or 3D effects


It is covered with black vinyl which I could try and remove but I have parts for my doser and ATU attached to the back so they would be seen.



Ady34 said:


> I know your looking at red plants but it would look incredible as a ‘bonsai tree’ with various sized anubias. Mini, and smaller for scale and realism......
> Is the red to imitate a particular tree like a blossom or just for colour aesthetic?


I'm no expert with Anubias varieties let alone the smaller leafed ones but when having a skim around didn't find much more than green leaves whereas I've had some Buces with interesting purplish leaf colours before.
Suggestions or knowledge welcome. 
I think Hoggies suggestion of the Ludwigia sp mini red got me thinking and could see it looking nice if I managed it, so yes it was colour aesthetics that made me look into it a bit more. Oh and of course the financial benefits over Buces then if it didn't work I could just remove it and go down the Buce/Anubias route. 

*Still no clue as to whether I would just have to keep it trimmed or keep replanting it!* *No one seems to want to answer this.* 

Today I started to remove the Oase filter that was in place and fit 2x Fluval G6 filters along with repositioning my aquarium which wasn't as simple as it sounds.
I got to the point where I had both filters running and my worst fears were realised; the extra filter I added started to disrupt the substrate in the back right corner so I have shut that one down for now - I was relying on the HC to hold the soil in place which I still do once it's grown in when I will turn the filter back on. The photo doesn't really show it but the substrate was being pushed around and flattened the top of the slope off. 



 

I also decided to try a glass intake and skimmer which have failed to put it simply. The intake will not allow enough flow through so I need to change that for a bigger one and the skimmer I just can't seem to get working.
Made sure it's level but nothing I seemed to do worked.  Any pointers from people who have them working?
I did have this problem when I had some stainless steel ones but I managed to play with the holes to get them working perfectly; unfortunately I don't have them anymore and unsure if any of the Borneo wild ones I know will work exist in the world anymore.
Mixing glass lily pipe and stainless steel intakes is maybe questionable I know

Here's how things are looking now................



 

As always comments and suggestions welcome; this post is just a quick unedited stack of words!
Andrew


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## Jayefc1 (20 Jan 2019)

What oase filter is it mate


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> What oase filter is it mate



They were biomaster thermo 600


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## Jayefc1 (20 Jan 2019)

Do you still have them


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Do you still have them


just dropping you a PM


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## Daveslaney (20 Jan 2019)

I'm no expert Andrew but I think with the lugwigia etc to make it look like the tree in the video I suspect you would have to keep trimming and retieing the tops on the tree.
But I could be wrong. Give it a try and see. If it don't work out as you say you can always go the buce and anubias route after.
I had the same problem with the skimmer intakes on day working fine the next sucking in air. Just could get the balance right to make them work properly.
I went back to the ehiem skimmer.
Nice looking scape. Well done.


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## foxfish (20 Jan 2019)

Many years ago I kept a cold water marine tank, I had two interchangeable backgrounds.
One I kept in the sea, hanging on my boat mooring, the other I kept in my tank.
Every few months I would swap them around.
I wonder if you could do the same with your tree, if you had another tree you could keep that in a emersed state and swap them around.


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> Many years ago I kept a cold water marine tank, I had two interchangeable backgrounds.
> One I kept in the sea, hanging on my boat mooring, the other I kept in my tank.
> Every few months I would swap them around.
> I wonder if you could do the same with your tree, if you had another tree you could keep that in a emersed state and swap them around.


When you use the word background; you don't mean what is stuck to the back of the tank do you?
The tree is well and truly buried in the substrate as it show in an earlier post when I removed it to clean the fungus.



Daveslaney said:


> I'm no expert Andrew but I think with the lugwigia etc to make it look like the tree in the video I suspect you would have to keep trimming and retieing the tops on the tree.
> But I could be wrong. Give it a try and see. If it don't work out as you say you can always go the buce and anubias route after.
> I had the same problem with the skimmer intakes on day working fine the next sucking in air. Just could get the balance right to make them work properly.
> I went back to the ehiem skimmer.
> Nice looking scape. Well done.


I'm not seeming to get any answers from people who do know about how this would work; maybe as no one has tried it before?
I'd love someone who has tried this to give me the answers but might have to put a separate thread up.
Did you use the EA skimmer or the Chinese ones?

I'm currently wondering if the second filter will ever work with the slope in the place it is; I will only find out when the HC has grown in I guess.


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## Daveslaney (20 Jan 2019)

The one I have is the Chinese one. Maybe that's the reason it wouldn't work?
Don't really know to be honest.


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

Daveslaney said:


> The one I have is the Chinese one. Maybe that's the reason it wouldn't work?
> Don't really know to be honest.


I'm going to give the EA one a go and see how I get on


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## GHNelson (20 Jan 2019)

Hi Andrew
What I can gather is Filipe Oliveira...has used small sections of Luwigia sp red...and either glued or tied them to the ends of the branches!
hoggie


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

hogan53 said:


> Hi Andrew
> What I can gather is Filipe Oliveira...has used small sections of Luwigia sp red...and either glued or tied them to the ends of the branches!
> hoggie


Hey Hoggie;
This is all your fault remember! haha
Looking through his youtube posts he has tied them on with fishing line but it's maintenance I'm lost on.
Whether he is able to let them grow and just trim them; making them bushy a bit like you would a S.Repens carpet in substrate or he keeps on cutting the tree 'naked' and tying the tips on again.
Andrew


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## GHNelson (20 Jan 2019)

Not sure....probably a bit of both!


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## foxfish (20 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> When you use the word background; you don't mean what is stuck to the back of the tank do you?
> The tree is well and truly buried in the substrate as it show in an earlier post when I removed it to clean the fungus.
> .


No I had a full sized perforated plastic background that had lava rock stuck all over it, I used to swap them around because it was really differcult to keep everything looking fresh and to keep sea weeds alive.

I just thought how cool it would be to keep your basic basic scape but swap the center piece with a nice new fresh algae free tree every few weeks.
Obviously you have enough on your plate to start thinking about my crazy ideas but maybe next time ah...


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## akwarium (20 Jan 2019)

I guess maintenance of stems tied on wood is not much different then planted ones, trimming will give bushier growth, but after a few trimmings the old stems don't put out that much new growth en should be replaced...

a bucephalandra tree is much easier to maintain and would look nice for longer periods of time.


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> No I had a full sized perforated plastic background that had lava rock stuck all over it, I used to swap them around because it was really differcult to keep everything looking fresh and to keep sea weeds alive.


never heard of anything like that before; sounds intriguing.



foxfish said:


> I just thought how cool it would be to keep your basic basic scape but swap the center piece with a nice new fresh algae free tree every few weeks.
> Obviously you have enough on your plate to start thinking about my crazy ideas but maybe next time ah...


I'm looking to make a scape I can enjoy looking at without having to put too much commitment to it (isn't everybody?)

you mean not plant the tree at all? I struggled finding the right pieces of wood as it is then the tree is made up from a couple of pieces joined together too and of course buried well and truly.............at the moment.

Oase Biomaster thermoe 600 'boasts' a maximum flow of 1250 LPH - I know that is the maximum but after changing over to the Fluval G6 which I know to have an actual flow rate of 1000 LPH and the flow now being near to full it has started to disrupt the back left of my aquarium too and have some clumps of HC floating around now too  Remember I'm only running one G6 at the moment and planned to run 2; unsure if I need to rethink that now.

Do I try draining the whole aquarium down again; attempting to put the substrate back something like it was and revert back to trying a dry start with a view the HC will hold the substrate in place long term once it's grown in?
Does anyone have any ideas? - remove all the substrate, pile some gravel up in place and just plant the tree?!?!  



akwarium said:


> I guess maintenance of stems tied on wood is not much different then planted ones, trimming will give bushier growth, but after a few trimmings the old stems don't put out that much new growth en should be replaced.


Filipe is the man with experience but I can't see details of how he done this anywhere, will have to have another hunt.



akwarium said:


> a bucephalandra tree is much easier to maintain and would look nice for longer periods of time.


I agree


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## foxfish (20 Jan 2019)

No I mean that you would have two trees, you could plant your trees with slow growing plants like Anubias but keep one in an emersed state and one in the tank. When the one it the tank attracts algae or you fancy a change, you bring out the immersed one that is lush and algae free and swap them over!
Of course that means you have to look after two trees and have a special immersed set up (outside in the summer would be good)
However as you point out .. in this instance your tree is not easily removable!


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jan 2019)

foxfish said:


> No I mean that you would have two trees, you could plant your trees with slow growing plants like Anubias but keep one in an emersed state and one in the tank. When the one it the tank attracts algae or you fancy a change, you bring out the immersed one that is lush and algae free and swap them over!
> Of course that means you have to look after two trees and have a special immersed set up (outside in the summer would be good)
> However as you point out .. in this instance your tree is not easily removable!


If I'm honest that sounds like too much work, especially given the difficulty of removing the tree as you say.
I have closed an aquarium down for a reason so this is almost like having another again which as much as I'd like it, I just haven't got the energy to commit.

At the moment the worry is my substrate being blown everywhere from the change in filter.


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## alto (20 Jan 2019)

Just “call in” during one of Filipe Oliveira’s Live Aquascaping Events, he always invites questions 
- Green Aqua February 16, 2019
though you might find another sooner 

(Better yet, pick up a cheap flight to Budapest and be there in person  )

I suppose begin by picking up Ludwigia sp. 'Mini Super Red' (Aquaflora I presume)


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## alto (20 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Oase Biomaster thermoe 600 'boasts' a maximum flow of 1250 LPH - I know that is the maximum but after changing over to the Fluval G6 which I know to have an actual flow rate of 1000 LPH and the flow now being near to full it has started to disrupt the back left of my aquarium too and have some clumps of HC floating around now too  Remember I'm only running one G6 at the moment and planned to run 2; unsure if I need to rethink that now.
> 
> Do I try draining the whole aquarium down again; attempting to put the substrate back something like it was and revert back to trying a dry start with a view the HC will hold the substrate in place long term once it's grown in?
> Does anyone have any ideas? - remove all the substrate, pile some gravel up in place and just plant the tree?!?



For a quick fix, why not just go back to the Oase for now?

Are you using same inlet/outlets and same positioning? for G6 as previous filter

Perhaps add a “sponge” to deflect/soften flow - can you tell whether the substrate disturbance is from inlet or outlet flow?

Once the carpet is established, higher/harder flow shouldn’t be an issue 

You can fix substrate and HC plants with water - just takes a bit more maneuvering 

I’d keep the HC in place, much easier longer term to run the Tree with supporting plants in the aquarium vs just the Tree + sand/gravel 
And who doesn’t love a gorgeous HC carpet!

Though MC would be lower maintenance and more accepting of interruptions - you could even just interplant MC at this stage 
I suspect carpet would eventually become mostly MC

Obviously an army of shrimp and Clithon Corona snails are great partners in maintaining an aquarium - not so many Amano as they’re renowned for substrate adjustment and even HC consumption


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## Andrew Butler (21 Jan 2019)

alto said:


> For a quick fix, why not just go back to the Oase for now?


I am not keeping them


alto said:


> Are you using same inlet/outlets and same positioning? for G6 as previous filter


Yes, exactly the same. It just shows how much more power is in the G6.
You can actually regulate flow with the G6 without damaging the motor according to the instructions *BUT* Hagen advise me this is not the case after doing so damaged one of my filters in the past. 


alto said:


> can you tell whether the substrate disturbance is from inlet or outlet flow?


Outlet flow for sure. 
I'm thinking I will try swapping the glass lily I have in place for a spraybar short term until thing settle down which will hopefully soften the flow; there's only one way to find out!
I just don't think a spraybar is the best option long term with the tree being such a barrier, especially when planted. - Not often I disagree with a spraybar!


alto said:


> Once the carpet is established, higher/harder flow shouldn’t be an issue


This is what I was counting on from the word go and it worked for me before; the DSM just went wrong so I filled it.


alto said:


> You can fix substrate and HC plants with water - just takes a bit more maneuvering


Planting I'm happy to do with water in but I can drain the water level enough to sort the substrate with everything in there still so that's the plan when I get a chance and will add a bit more HC to move things along.


alto said:


> Though MC would be lower maintenance and more accepting of interruptions - you could even just interplant MC at this stage
> I suspect carpet would eventually become mostly MC


This is something people seem to be divided on; I always thought it was harder to keep but many people are telling me HC/MC are just as demanding with everything so I will just stick with it and find out.


alto said:


> Obviously an army of shrimp and Clithon Corona snails are great partners in maintaining an aquarium - not so many Amano as they’re renowned for substrate adjustment and even HC consumption


There is already small army of CRS in there but without hiding the tetra are enjoying the smaller ones  I think the bigger ones will be okay and if not my mum has plenty in her aquarium so when things are covered in a bit I will go visit her aquarium.
There are only half a dozen Amano and I'm fully aware of their substrate shuffling adjustment properties; not of their HC consumption though.
Nerite snails hadn't crossed my mind; My mum added a couple of assassin snails to try and rectify her pest snail problem and they are now the pest snail so I do question whether Nerite could have this problem


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## Andrew Butler (21 Jan 2019)

alto said:


> Just “call in” during one of Filipe Oliveira’s Live Aquascaping Events, he always invites questions
> - Green Aqua February 16, 2019
> though you might find another sooner
> 
> ...


If only life were so simple 

Do you know if this event is streamed and you can ask that way?


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## alto (21 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> If only life were so simple
> 
> Do you know if this event is streamed and you can ask that way?


I’d be surprised if the event didn’t go live - they generally do though occasionally there are some technical issues ... GA has some very knowledgeable film/camera crew so I’m expecting great things  

At various time during these events, online questions are read out/answered 

I’d confirm details with Green Aqua - ad runs at top of FB page 
https://www.facebook.com/greenaqua/


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## alto (21 Jan 2019)

I’ve not heard of anyone successfully breeding nerites in freshwater aquariums ( though “olive” nerites are found happily breeding in freshwater streams and rivers despite initially thought to only successfully bred in estuaries) - some of the Nerite species will lay eggs, which may hatch out but larvae that do not survive

Out of the nerites, _Clithon_ _corona_ are the smallest, I’ve not seen any eggs from them after several months, both Green Aqua and Jurijs mit JS recommend these as the most inclusive algae eaters 
(The larger species commonly sold as “red onion”, “tire track”, ”zebra” had eggs everywhere within a couple months, eggs are laid down with a stellar adhesive which makes removal quite the challenge)

Assassin snails seem to breed quite happily in aquaria 

My experience with shrimp and fish that decide to add _shrimphunter_ to their skill set, is for the shrimp to go into retreat beneath whatever possible - which then means they aren’t out harvesting algae (or biofilm thought to lead to algae) nowhere near as effectively 
Most fish find shrimp quite tasty and seem to enjoy the excitement of the hunt so I’d not be surprised if your tetras expand their skill set to divebombing larger shrimp and sharing the spoils ...I’ve always kept shrimp quite safely with the “chocolate” gourami species - until a pair of dedicated shrimphunter rams somehow enticed the choco’s to join in    

Well MC can’t be too demanding as I manage to grow it despite my lackadaisical ways 
It doesn’t seem to mind being slowed down by reduced CO2, light, fertilizers; it doesn’t mind my lack of trimming - I do “push” it down at every water change while siphoning out any dust-debris (& allowing the baby shrimp to get out of the syphon tube); it doesn’t sulk too much if I decide it’s going to be a very “cloudy” (no lights, don’t even look at the tanks) day ... or three 

In case you missed this:
Jurijs mit JS just sprinkled the MC on top of the soil for the dry start, later trimmed it back several cm’s (no time for proper home tank maintenance) - it recovered very quickly 

Neglected 60P maintenance 


Update


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## Andrew Butler (21 Jan 2019)

alto said:


> I’ve not heard of anyone successfully breeding nerites in freshwater aquariums ( though “olive” nerites are found happily breeding in freshwater streams and rivers despite initially thought to only successfully bred in estuaries) - some of the Nerite species will lay eggs, which may hatch out but larvae that do not survive
> 
> Out of the nerites, _Clithon_ _corona_ are the smallest, I’ve not seen any eggs from them after several months, both Green Aqua and Jurijs mit JS recommend these as the most inclusive algae eaters
> (The larger species commonly sold as “red onion”, “tire track”, ”zebra” had eggs everywhere within a couple months, eggs are laid down with a stellar adhesive which makes removal quite the challenge)


I will have to have a study and find a retailer that actually sells what they say it is.



alto said:


> Assassin snails seem to breed quite happily in aquaria


Don't we know it; they were put in there to overcome the pest snail problem and have caused their very own problem in the tank and the filter!
Anyone near Banbury want to lend me a couple of GSP for a month?!



alto said:


> Well MC can’t be too demanding as I manage to grow it despite my lackadaisical ways
> It doesn’t seem to mind being slowed down by reduced CO2, light, fertilizers; it doesn’t mind my lack of trimming - I do “push” it down at every water change while siphoning out any dust-debris (& allowing the baby shrimp to get out of the syphon tube); it doesn’t sulk too much if I decide it’s going to be a very “cloudy” (no lights, don’t even look at the tanks) day ... or three


Read on..................................



alto said:


> In case you missed this:
> Jurijs mit JS just sprinkled the MC on top of the soil for the dry start, later trimmed it back several cm’s (no time for proper home tank maintenance) - it recovered very quickly


This might suit me just fine.

The original 'Lazy Dry Start Method' is one of Georges videos here for anyone interested and looking through Jurijs' with no joy.
As the soil has now been disrupted and needs some moving, after a bit of thought I think I am going to just move the inhabitants into my now spare 600 for a few months with some gravel/stone; get the substrate back in place in the 900 and just go for the LDSMB and be done with it. I'm also going to change back to MC; a plant I know and on I think is just as nice and easier to look after - although I know this is debatable.

Stupid or sensible?!?


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## Kalum (21 Jan 2019)

I knew I was on to something with the pinnatifida


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## Andrew Butler (21 Jan 2019)

Kalum said:


> knew I was on to something with the pinnatifida


That tank is a bit busy for what I'm looking to achieve but thanks for the tip.


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## Kalum (21 Jan 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> That tank is a bit busy for what I'm looking to achieve but thanks for the tip.



Was only the pinna on the wood that I noticed so had to share, I still think your initial buce idea is still the best but obviously expensive as well

Anyway I'll stop spamming mate


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## Andrew Butler (21 Jan 2019)

Kalum said:


> Anyway I'll stop spamming mate


not taken as spamming at all.


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## Andrew Butler (9 Feb 2019)

So..................
After having to take a step back from things and just not being able to commit the time when it was needed I took the drastic decision to rip it all apart and start again.

Opinions and views always more than welcome.

The soil being blown around made me think I would never get the substrate back in place and I was relying on the DSM and the carpet growing in for it to stay where I put it in tthe first place.
Nothing is final and I'd like to have another go at the DSM and see how that works out for me, one better the 'lazy dry start method'


I think it was @alto that mentioned the soil being too wet before but I can't find the post anywhere and I think the reason for that is me trying to get the soil in the higher areas wet and the water just seeping into the JBL volcano mineral so the lower areas got saturated. I do also have @alto to thank for pointing me in the direction of the 'LDSM' so thanks for that.

In my opinion the Oase filters are not that great, the pre-filters are not anything like as good in comparison to the the Fluval G-series and the height of the Oase ones makes removing them in the cabinet impossible for most people.
I assume that's why Oase fitted a drawer to stand their filters on in their aquariums which must be a nightmare with hose. I also think the flow is awful and nothing like the advertised maximum flow; maybe even only 50%.

Also thinking about cleaning hoses another couple of (planned) changes;
-inject CO2 straight into the tank if people find it works well or even better? inline CO2 still shoots out bubbles so if I can make in tank work then is it much different?
-use an in tank heater that I know is reliable and should last along with a controller I trust. A little eyesore maybe but the titanium looks quite similar to the planned SS CO2 and dosing pipes - maybe even inlets/outlets.
(Why doesn't anyone manufacture a SS lily pipe; they make roses for watering cans so is there that much difference? Jet pipes are too strong a flow I found)

Changes with planned setup marked with *

Tank:
Aquascaper 900 (unchanged)

Lighting:
Twinstar 900S (unchanged)

*Filtration:
2x Fluval G6

*Heating:
Schego Titanium heater in tank controlled by Elitech ATC 1550

*Co2:
CO2 art Pro Elite regulator connected to fire extinguisher and a stainless steel in tank diffuser

Fertiliser:
All in one EI (unchanged)

Hardscape:
Manzanita fixed to a piece of slate (unchanged)

Substrate:
JBL Volcano mineral (unchanged)
JBL Volcano powder (unchanged)
*Tropica aquarium soil powder

Planting:
*micranthemum monte carlo

The plan now is to have a go at the LDSM using MC alone and after the MC has filled in have a bit more of a think about what I might like to add or change.
I have also changed the general soil level at the front and back a little along with softening the slopes.

Opinions welcome!

1st attempt





2nd attempt


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## Daveslaney (10 Feb 2019)

Although not stainless steel, so not really the look your after, I find the Aquario Neo in tank diffusers work the best of all the in tanks I have tried.
https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/e...ges/aquario-neo-co2-diffusor-large-2316-p.jpg


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## Daveslaney (10 Feb 2019)

Expensive or one of these
https://www.elosaquarium.co.uk/CO2-Venturi-Reactor


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## Andrew Butler (10 Feb 2019)

Daveslaney said:


> Expensive or one of these
> https://www.elosaquarium.co.uk/CO2-Venturi-Reactor


Not a great deal of info out there on these and I guess that's not just from the price, looks complicated, messy and for £200 I would expect more.


I can get some stainless steel 'J' or 'S' sections so finding a quality diffuser that fits neatly on those would be fine but I don't think such a thing exists.
Has anyone every really tried the SS pollen type diffusers?

I'm also thinking about flow in the aquarium and whether only one filter would be enough on its own with an actual flow of 1000 LPH with such a simple shaped 'scape? - Opinions?


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## Andrew Butler (11 Feb 2019)

Thinking a little more about using just the one filter after seeing how powerful they are compared to the Oase I know some people are running on an AS900

So red is flow/return and green is CO2; option 1 would be using 2 x Fluval G6 filters, option 2 is just using 1 x Fluval G6 assuming pipes fit in the back right with the substrate.
I'd like to keep CO2 on the back wall if I can. Who has some better ideas or views given the layout of the substrate and power of the filters?


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## Andrew Butler (13 Feb 2019)

I forgot to put up how I had added the volcano mineral and kept it away from the sides after being asked; maybe not the simplest way but it worked for me.


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## Andrew Butler (24 Apr 2019)

So it's April and I still haven't done anything more with the aquarium since February after a step back from things due to health. I'm looking to slowly get things back in gear and maybe one day get the tank planted out!

Tank:
Aquascaper 900

Lighting:
Twinstar 900S

Filtration:
Fluval G6 (start with one and see how it goes)

Heating:
Schego Titanium heater in tank controlled by Elitech ATC 1550

Co2:
CO2 art Pro Elite regulator connected to fire extinguisher - yet to decide on inline or in tank.

Fertiliser:
EI using a doser

Hardscape:
Manzanita fixed to a piece of slate

Substrate:
JBL Volcano mineral (unchanged)
JBL Volcano powder (unchanged)
Tropica aquarium soil powder

Planting:
micranthemum monte carlo or Hemianthus callitrichoides - undecided at the moment, leaning towards MC as I have experience of it but opinions always welcome.

I'm going to initially heavily plant the whole thing out with either HC or MC then flood it instead with a hope the substrate doesn't get blown everywhere. I plan to change the spraybar I start things off with to a lily pipe and skimmer inlet after things have hopefully grown in without disturbing the soil.

I'm wanting to create a bit of a summer meadow look so after the main carpet (MC or HC) has grown in am looking to scatter a few plants in, primarily some kind of Hemiathus, then I'm still thinking what other plants to add but maybe some Rotala Bonsai, Staurogyne Repens both of which I have experience of then Hydrocotyle Tripartita and Marsilea Hirsuta are on the investigating list.

The tree is something I've been deliberating over as the tank has stood with just soil and the wood in the past months and I'm in 2, well actually 4 minds about what to do............
-Leave as is
-Leave as is and add some plants to the wood
-Add extra wood to the structure to make it look more interesting
-Add extra wood to the structure to make it look more interesting and add some plants to the wood

I think I have an idea about what I'm going to do; add some extra wood see how I get on with the carpet and plant it out if or when I think it needs it. I think it could look interesting and give the fish enough comfort without any plants on the wood.
I'm quite confident I can add some more smaller pieces of wood to the structure and make them almost look as thought they've been there all along/natural. The wood is NOT one piece as it stands afterall and I don't think it's that noticeable - is it?
If I were to plant any of the wood it would be with Bucephalandra/Anubias of some kind or another.

I'm very interested to hear other peoples views on things please.
As always open to suggestions too.


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## Andrew Butler (24 Apr 2019)

The first picture shows things kind of how they are now, the second shows a picture with a little detail of the wood close up and the third show a few proposed fixing points for the extra wood.
As I said I'm very interested to hear peoples


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## JEK (25 Apr 2019)

I think the wood looks good, but could benefit from some more mass to it. I don't think planting it would fit with the scenery you are going for. A single dead tree surrounded by a lush meadow sounds really interesting, but I would consider shaping the soil so the tree stands in an elevated part, like on the top of a hill. Maybe also add some rockwork to create a more varied landscape. Good luck!


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## Andrew Butler (25 Apr 2019)

JEK said:


> I think the wood looks good, but could benefit from some more mass to it. I don't think planting it would fit with the scenery you are going for. A single dead tree surrounded by a lush meadow sounds really interesting, but I would consider shaping the soil so the tree stands in an elevated part, like on the top of a hill. Maybe also add some rockwork to create a more varied landscape. Good luck!


Thanks for the input Johan,
The soil is shaped like that for a couple of reasons; firstly the angle(s) I view the aquarium from works quite well with these 2 separate slopes whereas with 1 mound no matter where it is the diffraction through the glass makes it look awful. Secondly I quite like it!
Adding stone is something which has been discussed before in the old thread and I don't really want any although it is something I can add a later date with relative ease, I think the plants alone could be enough.
Andrew


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## dean (29 Apr 2019)

Most fields have hedges so maybe have the tree growing out of the hedge somehow 
Maybe one at an angle to the front glass ? 
Hedges usually follow the contour of the land so that’s something to think about 
Also they have drainage ditches another thing to add or even stone walls 

What Livestock you thinking of ?
Hatchet fish look like birds hovering 
Amano shrimp (cows) grazing in the meadow ? Or some other coloured shrimp 

I like the dead tree but if you wanted to add volume then how about adding a few branches with leaves so the tree isn’t completely dead yet (just one side is)

You could carve up some polystyrene into clouds and let them float around so you see shadows move across the field 

What about adding a small stone building ??
Either complete with a slate roof or in ruins 
If it had a chimney you could have your Co2 coming out of it 

Just some initial crazy ideas for you 


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## Andrew Butler (29 Apr 2019)

dean said:


> Most fields have hedges so maybe have the tree growing out of the hedge somehow
> Maybe one at an angle to the front glass ?
> Hedges usually follow the contour of the land so that’s something to think about
> Also they have drainage ditches another thing to add or even stone walls
> ...


HAHAHA this is maybe the best post I have ever seen on UKAPS, it's on my thread and I love it!
You have shone a whole new light on my thoughts about the aquarium and it's almost at risk of turning into a model train like scene.

I do think I could turn it into a couple of different fields with relative which is something I'd not thought about and of course I live near the cotswolds which have lots of nice, rolling hills I enjoy looking at which even in the autumn look lush and green; given you look at the right ones. (a quick Google image search of 'cotswold hills autumn' may give you an idea if you ignore the ploughed ones) The majority are separated by dry stone walling although photos don't seem to show this which is something I could maybe recreate with some stone, a hammer and some glue. This I think for maintenance might also make things easier if I were to keep the 'fields' with only one plant type too. I also think a wall would be easier to keep defined than hedges for obvious reasons but experimenting needed.
The problem I see with adding a building is scale as the tree is so big yet if I were to add one (which I think I could given the time with relative ease) it might look quite out of proportion and unsure where in the layout it would naturally sit unlike the walling which I think you could place quite easily. Hmmmmmmm
We all know in the summer a tree tends to have leaves on but if your idea was to work then I guess the tree is either dead or it becomes an autumn/winter scene instead.

Marbled Hatchetfish are on the list but they are jumpers so need to have a think on this although they weren't so bad in the past.

I think clouds are a step too far for me
Do you think the amount of wood on the tree is enough at the moment if there were to be nothing else added to it then? - this includes no planting
I know iwagumi is very open but I'd like to give the fish some sense of security.


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## Zeus. (29 Apr 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Marbled Hatchetfish are on the list but they are jumpers so need to have a think on this although they weren't so bad in the past.



Had them Jump out of my braced tank with glass covers, once when it was left open at one end and found it on the carpet and then another got between the glass lids


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## Andrew Butler (29 Apr 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Had them Jump out of my braced tank with glass covers, once when it was left open at one end and found it on the carpet and then another got between the glass lids


I think they are a strange fish; I had some that managed to jump through gaps in screen yet others previous were quite happy and didn't jump at all.
I think it was the spotted that seemed most jumpy yet the smaller marbled ones were quite happy.

I've been having a think about the ideas from @dean and think I could build a drystone wall if I can find the time. I have some pieces of slate chippings which might be just right for the job given a wash - I think it might all depend on just putting some time into it and sorting through to find the right pieces. Below is a* very bad *example of what I mean!

Further thoughts on it all welcome as usual


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## dean (29 Apr 2019)

Instead of polystyrene clouds use a few bigger floating plants like frogbit 

The building needs to be in scale so if it’s small it’s needs to be almost at the back and you would have to use small stones to build it 

It could be a cottage ruin either next to the tree or have the walls around the tree
If there’s part of a roof then grown some small moss on it and odd larger plants around the edges of it to represent weeds 

If you divide the scape into different fields it would look good to use different ground cover in each one 

What about white guppies to represent gulls or doves flying around 

Some images from web of ruins 
You could cut up slate or ceramic tiles for bricks or hunt for small stones or just get busy with a hammer 














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## dean (29 Apr 2019)

Your wood definitely looks like a dead tree to me and I like that 


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## Andrew Butler (29 Apr 2019)

dean said:


> Instead of polystyrene clouds use a few bigger floating plants like frogbit


I plan to put a skimmer intake in the aquarium so it would either be using a method to keep them in place or a no go.


dean said:


> If you divide the scape into different fields it would look good to use different ground cover in each one





dean said:


> You could cut up slate or ceramic tiles for bricks or hunt for small stones or just get busy with a hammer


This I think could be a go, depends how I get on with the walling really. I just don't want it to end up looking like a model railway hillside!
As I've said I have a load of slate chippings, I just need to sort through, find the right kind of size then go from there.


dean said:


> The building needs to be in scale so if it’s small it’s needs to be almost at the back and you would have to use small stones to build it
> 
> It could be a cottage ruin either next to the tree or have the walls around the tree
> If there’s part of a roof then grown some small moss on it and odd larger plants around the edges of it to represent weeds


I'm not sure I'm going to get one in and with this aquarium I'm trying to cut down on maintenance which would mean moss on a roof is too much work - I know I've a massive carpet to trim but that I think I could manage.



dean said:


> Your wood definitely looks like a dead tree to me and I like that


I like it too which is why I'm more hesitant to plant it out and makes me question whether to add a few more branches?


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## Andrew Butler (29 Apr 2019)

After a bit of thinking and playing around for an hour I think it would be far easier to make a slate slag style dry stone wall by using the thinner pieces of slate I have, shaping them to a rough dimension and sticking them together.
I'd like to go higher yet if I go ahead and this is only as a quick example but what are peoples' thoughts on this look or having the wall at all?
I need to get the pieces to fit a little closer I know but I think the scale looks about right.
Is it turning a model bit train set or is this what aquascaping is about?!?
Just for @dean I might put a stile in the wall if it goes ahead. 
I'm now picturing a disused slate quarry!


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## dean (29 Apr 2019)

I think you need to get a few sample pieces of the ground cover plant so you tell how much you need to smash the slate up 
Also how high the walls have to be compared to the height of the plant 

I wouldn’t worry about it looking like a model railway 
If all the top people can create mountains and valleys with waterfalls why the hell shouldn’t you recreate a scene you love ? 

Atleast it’s not going to include plastic toy bricks 


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## Andrew Butler (30 Apr 2019)

dean said:


> I think you need to get a few sample pieces of the ground cover plant so you tell how much you need to smash the slate up
> Also how high the walls have to be compared to the height of the plant


Noted but I don't think this will really happen as I would have to let the plant grow to see and the walls need sticking together.
I need to finalise my initial plant selection too. I know the height needed to make it look about right I think assuming I use MC or HC as the main foreground plant.


dean said:


> I wouldn’t worry about it looking like a model railway
> If all the top people can create mountains and valleys with waterfalls why the hell shouldn’t you recreate a scene you love ?


This is true, I do think there's a fine line between cheesy and dramatic although sometimes it depends on your name to the reaction you get I think!


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## Andrew Butler (30 Apr 2019)

What's your view on the wall idea @Keith GH


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## Zeus. (30 Apr 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> make a slate slag style dry stone wall by using the thinner pieces of slate I have



Could work/look good


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## papa_c (30 Apr 2019)

As soon as the discussion has moved onto open fields and mini slate dry stone, I now have the vision of a single matchbox tractor on one of the hill slopes to complete the diorama!

But serious love reading this thread, keep it up Andrew..


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## Andrew Butler (6 May 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Could work/look good


Thoughts so far?



papa_c said:


> As soon as the discussion has moved onto open fields and mini slate dry stone, I now have the vision of a single matchbox tractor on one of the hill slopes to complete the diorama!


Oh I already voiced my concern over what I am looking at doing in such a way which just leaves me wondering why I've given it a go!

So...................
I'm unsure what really pulled me towards Deans idea but something did.
Still weighing up the pros and cons really; a big pro for me is definitely being able to keep at least 2 separate planting areas but I can also think of many cons.

Here is what I have mocked up and just thought I'd ask for peoples' honest opinions on it.
I toyed around with the wall going through the tree as originally planned and it splitting the wall apart but it was just too much.
Picture 1 is just the base and I opted to take the bumps out of the top course to make the coping course easier
Here's where I'm at the moment and I would plan to run the coping course like in picture 2 all the way around what you see in picture 1.
BUT I would cut a section of what I have already out and if I think it's going to work have a play around with something like in picture 3 with a fallen branch only complete the look.

Honest opinions invited as always.
Andrew


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## dean (6 May 2019)

Love the coping stones 
What about a path running along the wall ?
You could use the slate for this or just push stones into to substrate having the flat side up ?

I also like the fallen branch 
Will you have to superglue it to the wall ? 
Any full tanks pics showing it ? 


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## Kezzab (6 May 2019)

This is heading towards full model train set/aquascape mash up! Plough your own furrow dude.


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## GreenNeedle (6 May 2019)

Kezzab said:


> This is heading towards full model train set/aquascape mash up! Plough your own furrow dude.



Maybe an English/British version of Taiwanese style scaping?


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## Keith GH (7 May 2019)

Here are a few ideas I have PM to Andrew
All of these walls are supposed to be in the UK 










This is a drawing from a wall in Vic Australia




Keith


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

dean said:


> Love the coping stones
> What about a path running along the wall ?
> You could use the slate for this or just push stones into to substrate having the flat side up ?
> 
> ...


So assuming I do go ahead with this wall position and type.......................
A path is something I had thought about but there is no real natural place for it from what I can see - aside from along the wall but slate would look just the same and unsure about adding another stone type to the tank.
The fallen branch part is yet to have more work; the course below will be 'damaged' too and the scattered coping stones will be a bit more (un)organised as will the coping stones leading upto the fallen branch.
I'd like to think if I organise the damage in a certain way that the piece of fallen branch would just stay wedged in place and mean I could lift it when it comes to cutting my caret but we will see.

I still have soil levels to sort out and thinking I might use the wall as a retainer to hold the soil behind at a slightly higher level than in front.

Also on the thoughts are adding another, smaller wall to the back right in some kind of way.
I now it's still missing something just not sure what and where so suggestions welcome.



 





Kezzab said:


> This is heading towards full model train set/aquascape mash up! Plough your own furrow dude.





SuperColey1 said:


> Maybe an English/British version of Taiwanese style scaping?


I'm unsure if these comments are positive, negative or neutral! - maybe you could let me know! 

I have also thought about changing the backing from black BUT it would need to be something solid as there are pipes and sensors running up the back for ATO, temp and doser.
Maybe some interesting looking clouds?


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## foxfish (7 May 2019)

I like it,  certainly not the normal style you see but unless you are adhering to certain competition rules who cares ?
I have always done and built unusual things away from the normal, I don’t want to look at something I can see elsewhere, I think your capping stones are awesome.


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

foxfish said:


> I like it,  certainly not the normal style you see but unless you are adhering to certain competition rules who cares ?
> I have always done and built unusual things away from the normal, I don’t want to look at something I can see elsewhere, I think your capping stones are awesome.


I'm definitely not a competition man!
Thanks for the compliment on capping stones. 
What are your thoughts on adding other things? - what and where, I know you too have different ideas. 
Thoughts on replacing the black backing with a skyscape photo?


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## Kezzab (7 May 2019)

Hi, my comments are positive! Its not a style im into but its cool you are trying something different to the norm!
It reminds me of this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/aquarium-sussoa.42794/
The inspiration was also a particular european lanscape.
Crack on!


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

Kezzab said:


> Hi, my comments are positive! Its not a style im into but its cool you are trying something different to the norm!


I've no idea how it will turn out but I just want something I enjoy looking at (and is easy enough to maintain)
I had a look over the Sussoa thread and he suffered my biggest fear with this wall; algae! - only time will tell if I have those problems.


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## GreenNeedle (7 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I'm unsure if these comments are positive, negative or neutral! - maybe you could let me know!
> 
> I have also thought about changing the backing from black BUT it would need to be something solid as there are pipes and sensors running up the back for ATO, temp and doser.
> Maybe some interesting looking clouds?



From my point of view it isn't really a positive as I am referring to some of the older Taiwanese styles that have houses, shacks, wall, bridges in them however.......I should add  that I am not really one to critique something that someone else likes.  I went through a stage of wanting to do "abstract" scapes with linear shapes, symmetry and all sorts of other things which came in for a lot more ridicule than you can imagine 

All of us go through periods of experimentation, sometimes quite out there.  It would get very boring if scape after scape we just did similar things with small differences.  At the end of the day learning is about exploring, experimentation and curiosity which helps shape our preference and while some experiments might end up being something we look back on with a cringe (not saying your idea is that) we might take aspects of that forward into our progression which gives each scaper their own individual style gathering in aspects they have liked from each progression.

The below are what I was referring to when generalising "Taiwanese style."  It is questioned whether this is Taiwanese style at all.  Some of these are done well, others not.  There is a line that can be crossed.  I'll let you decide which one(s) go past that line


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## dean (7 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I have also thought about changing the backing from black BUT it would need to be something solid as there are pipes and sensors running up the back for ATO, temp and doser.
> Maybe some interesting looking clouds?



I say get out and take a photo
Some rolling hills 
Doesn’t cost much to have large photos printed on line 
Then simply back it on wood or hardboard to stop the lights going through it 

You could even make your soil follow the same lines so it really is an extension to your layout 

It will be a challenge to do but I’m positive it can only add much more depth to a scape than a solid colour background 

It would really be like watching a living picture 


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## dean (7 May 2019)

Re photo 
I would avoid getting any vehicles or aircraft in it 

Re the wall 
I wound not use the wall as a retaining wall for the soil behind it that’s just not what stone walls in the country do 

Wall V algae 
I believe the wall is in one piece ? 
So the occasional rub over with a toothbrush won’t hurt it 
Or if you lay the path of slate so that the wall actually sits on it then if things got bad you could simply lift out the wall to clean it if you felt you needed to 

But algae could also affect the tree 

So with any planted tank the use of a good clean up crew will help 
What plans do you have for a clean up crew ?
Do you want them to be a big part of it such as using SAE or brightly coloured shrimp 
Or more discrete such as amano shrimp or very low quality red cherry shrimp 

I’ve just had the vision of some ottocinclus in a row on the tree branch start singing 



Yes I know I’m bonkers I have the Drs letters to prove it 


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## dean (7 May 2019)

Here’s the last scape I did





It was for an art & design course 


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> From my point of view it isn't really a positive as I am referring to some of the older Taiwanese styles that have houses, shacks, wall, bridges in them however.......I should add that I am not really one to critique something that someone else likes. I went through a stage of wanting to do "abstract" scapes with linear shapes, symmetry and all sorts of other things which came in for a lot more ridicule than you can imagine
> 
> All of us go through periods of experimentation, sometimes quite out there. It would get very boring if scape after scape we just did similar things with small differences. At the end of the day learning is about exploring, experimentation and curiosity which helps shape our preference and while some experiments might end up being something we look back on with a cringe (not saying your idea is that) we might take aspects of that forward into our progression which gives each scaper their own individual style gathering in aspects they have liked from each progression.
> 
> The below are what I was referring to when generalising "Taiwanese style." It is questioned whether this is Taiwanese style at all. Some of these are done well, others not. There is a line that can be crossed. I'll let you decide which one(s) go past that line


Everyone is entitled to their view and I do appreciate honest opinions - if someone thinks it looks naff I'd rather they just told me.
I said before I started the wall I thought it could end up looking very model train set which is not what I want.
There is a fine line between something looking good and completely naff; I think the photos you put up have crossed that line and do look naff in my opinion.
I guess I will see how the next stages pan out and see if the look is for me or not.


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

@dean I will reply when I get a chance


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## GreenNeedle (7 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Everyone is entitled to their view and I do appreciate honest opinions - if someone thinks it looks naff I'd rather they just told me.
> I said before I started the wall I thought it could end up looking very model train set which is not what I want.
> There is a fine line between something looking good and completely naff; I think the photos you put up have crossed that line and do look naff in my opinion.
> I guess I will see how the next stages pan out and see if the look is for me or not.



There was another scape on here that I was looking through last night.  Similar in a way that it had 2 quadrants of rock with a path inbetween.  Lots of people talking about how it looked and my subconcious was thinking "Planting will either make or break this."  That was with similar sized rocks but of course not identical.

Yours has an almost uniform look to it.  I like it but then I like lines and symmetry.  However the more uniform it is then the more the pressure is on for the plants to work with it.  Like the other scape with the walled terraces above in this thread.  Most people on here wouldn't do it, but then it would be very boring if we all did the same thing.

I would do something like you have but I am far too lazy to keep on top of it.  I suspect it would need quite a bit of manicuring to keep the plant / wall effect looking good and I'm not one for that 

I wouldn't worry too much about algae on the wall.  Walls get moss and lichens and all sorts else growing within their cracks.  Wouldn't need major cleaning to get it spick and span as a little green here and there would make it look more natural.


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> There was another scape on here that I was looking through last night.  Similar in a way that it had 2 quadrants of rock with a path inbetween.  Lots of people talking about how it looked and my subconcious was thinking "Planting will either make or break this."  That was with similar sized rocks but of course not identical.
> 
> Yours has an almost uniform look to it.  I like it but then I like lines and symmetry.  However the more uniform it is then the more the pressure is on for the plants to work with it.  Like the other scape with the walled terraces above in this thread.  Most people on here wouldn't do it, but then it would be very boring if we all did the same thing.
> 
> ...



Can you remember what the thread was you were looking at for me to have a look through?

I'm trying to break the uniform look up with the coping stones with the fallen branch damage and the tree trunk might disrupt some stones too but I will see.
Do the coping stones break the uniformity up at all in your opinion?
The big problem when trying to replicate something with a similar look to a dry stone wall is it's an art form in itself in full size; let alone scaled right down.
A dry stone wall varies so much throughout the country, also with age and the mason who built it.
I'm not a model builder or aquascaper so am just trying to find a happy medium and achieve a look I find enjoyable to view.

You say you're too lazy to keep on top of it; aside from a large carpet to trim I don't see this as any different from an iwagumi style layout or have I got my blinkers on?!
The wall idea was carried forward with the idea it would keep plants separate from each other and possibly make maintenance easier in that respect.


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

dean said:


> I say get out and take a photo


I think having a photograph backing or not is a very fine line indeed, has anyone seen any real success stories here?
I know there have been some in competitions but mine is more for wanting something a little more interesting than a black background if it will look right and a cloudy sky is the only option I see.
A background is needed to hide a menagerie of pipes etc.


dean said:


> I wound not use the wall as a retaining wall for the soil behind it that’s just not what stone walls in the country do


There are many around my part of the country that do and it's more just a slight elevation in soil level so the plants immediately behind don't look lost.


dean said:


> What plans do you have for a clean up crew ?


Probably dwarf ottos, Amano and maybe some CRS - nothing out of the ordinary.


dean said:


> Here’s the last scape I did


It's a bit different to the look I'm going for.


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## GreenNeedle (7 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Can you remember what the thread was you were looking at for me to have a look through?
> 
> I'm trying to break the uniform look up with the coping stones with the fallen branch damage and the tree trunk might disrupt some stones too but I will see.
> Do the coping stones break the uniformity up at all in your opinion?
> ...



The Uniformity is the style of the design.  It looks like a dry wall.  It goes in an smooth arch.  That is the uniformity.  It isn't "habhazard" rocks that landed where the glaciers dumped them.

Lazy as in trimming shapes of plants.  Trimming a carpet is pretty easy.  half an hour every 2 weeks, chop chop chop.  Shaping plants or pruning parts to let another plant through in certain areas or adversely to stop "mingling" in certain areas is much more what I am on about.  Plants will grow through other plants.  Then you get mixes.  Still planted separately but in some areas that is cool, others you might want to trim one plant back hard on one side to let another bloom into that area.

This is the journal I was talking about.  As soon as I saw the new hardscape of 2 quadrants I thought (this will be made or broken by the planting.)  Purely because without plants it looks pretty clinical and un-natural.  Plants can make it look more natural............or make it look like an ornamental garden (which some might like.)
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/new-year-new-scape.56501/

Do you mean RCS or CRS?  Cherry Shrimp or Crystals?


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## Andrew Butler (7 May 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> The Uniformity is the style of the design. It looks like a dry wall. It goes in an smooth arch. That is the uniformity. It isn't "habhazard" rocks that landed where the glaciers dumped them.


I'm with you now; the idea is it looks like a dry stone wall and not a natural scene.
I didn't plan on the wall finishing that central but it's where it's ended up.


SuperColey1 said:


> Lazy as in trimming shapes of plants. Trimming a carpet is pretty easy. half an hour every 2 weeks, chop chop chop. Shaping plants or pruning parts to let another plant through in certain areas or adversely to stop "mingling" in certain areas is much more what I am on about. Plants will grow through other plants. Then you get mixes. Still planted separately but in some areas that is cool, others you might want to trim one plant back hard on one side to let another bloom into that area.


The idea is to keep this simple by separating the majority of different species with the wall(s) and the ones mixed in to be ones easier to isolate like Rotala Bonsai and maybe some buces in/around the stone.
IF the above goes to plan then it should be just 'chop chop chop' as you say but we all know what happens to plans!


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## GreenNeedle (7 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I'm with you now; the idea is it looks like a dry stone wall and not a natural scene.
> I didn't plan on the wall finishing that central but it's where it's ended up.
> 
> The idea is to keep this simple by separating the majority of different species with the wall(s) and the ones mixed in to be ones easier to isolate like Rotala Bonsai and maybe some buces in/around the stone.
> IF the above goes to plan then it should be just 'chop chop chop' as you say but we all know what happens to plans!



I think if you look at a scape like Felipe Oliveira's "Syrah" - pic below - you could imagine how in the UK your wall could work with the "lonely tree" although his is a smaller tank.  Let me know what you think 

As an Englishman I can quite envisage a wall running alongside the path that treeside.  Something I see quite a lot of the time in Lincolnshire.   There isn't too much management here in terms of holding plants back from other but the total image<---- is powerful.  And I mean image as in at the point this photo is taken.  It beats so many scapes that have had a vast amount more effort.  The only difference with your "hardscape" is you wall is away from the front.  I'm not saying it should be at the glass where it would be very noticeable but if you could "veer" that wall closer to the front with some "grass" in front of it then it would be there, prominent BUT be shielded from being glaring in front of the picture.  This is where planting becomes key.  If you can "naturalise" that closer to the glass wall and not make it not a focal point then you have a chance of getting the scape to work.  If that "front visual" blends then you have a bit more freedom behind.

The trick with the wall is pretty simple.  You need people to not really notice the wall.  It is there but they are looking past the wall.  If people say "hey a wall" you have lost.  In that you set yourself a pretty hard task.......but something that if you succeed you are instantly into the "better scapers" category 

p.s I wouldn't be able to do it. I would be so focused on the wall because I like lines.

p.s. Take  look at all of Filipe's aquascapes.  He has quite a theme of scapes with "Lonely trees" and thus you could take aspects of each to suit your scape.


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## dean (7 May 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


>



I think the background definitely lets it down 
Imagine it with some distant hills and a few clouds in a blue sky 

If you’re any good with photo shop put up a green paper background and then you can add in your chosen photo to see what it would look like 



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## GreenNeedle (7 May 2019)

dean said:


> I think the background definitely lets it down
> Imagine it with some distant hills and a few clouds in a blue sky
> 
> If you’re any good with photo shop put up a green paper background and then you can add in your chosen photo to see what it would look like
> ...



The Filipe Oliveira scape was from 2007 and in the very early days of clear backgrounds!!  Most scapes in this era were all black backgrounds.

Since then (not from Filipe's influence I should add) clear/frosted backgrounds have become very "in" and backlighting etc.  Something I would suggest George Farmer (and others) have excelled at.

The clear background is something that is excellent for "photo shoots" because you can insert any background you want for the photo.  Or just use light background for everyday use and light it up


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## Andrew Butler (8 May 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> Take look at all of Filipe's aquascapes. He has quite a theme of scapes with "Lonely trees" and thus you could take aspects of each to suit your scape.


have started to have a look through and there are quite a few; beyond what I will achieve or have the energy to keep on top of.



SuperColey1 said:


> I think if you look at a scape like Felipe Oliveira's "Syrah" - pic below - you could imagine how in the UK your wall could work with the "lonely tree" although his is a smaller tank. Let me know what you think
> 
> As an Englishman I can quite envisage a wall running alongside the path that treeside. Something I see quite a lot of the time in Lincolnshire. There isn't too much management here in terms of holding plants back from other but the total image<---- is powerful. And I mean image as in at the point this photo is taken. It beats so many scapes that have had a vast amount more effort. The only difference with your "hardscape" is you wall is away from the front. I'm not saying it should be at the glass where it would be very noticeable but if you could "veer" that wall closer to the front with some "grass" in front of it then it would be there, prominent BUT be shielded from being glaring in front of the picture. This is where planting becomes key. If you can "naturalise" that closer to the glass wall and not make it not a focal point then you have a chance of getting the scape to work. If that "front visual" blends then you have a bit more freedom behind.
> 
> ...


The problem I have is there are 2 different viewing angles I get in my room and the only way I found for me to 'optimise' this is to have the soil laid out in a similar style to what I have it with the 2 opposing back corners being sloped upwards.
I do think where one end of the wall has fallen is too central; allowing it to go through the tree would have been better and allowed it to fall where I originally planned but this just wasn't happening.
Lincolnshire is a place like no other in the UK; you can be in Market Rasen and it's that flat you can see Lincoln yet you go a couple of miles in the opposite direction and you're in the Lincolnshire wolds.
The problem with a path treeside for me as I have things is it would not be seen. The photo from Filipe is also intended to be looked at from that front viewing angle and nothing much more.
I'd try to leave enough space in front of the wall for getting to trim the carpet as I know how awkward it can be from past experience - I'm even going to build the wall damage on a piece of plastic to lift out when it's time to mow.
I'll never be in the better scapers category; I'm needing to sort something that suits me practically but I enjoy looking at - something maybe I'll never achieve but I want to stop short of a bubbling pirate chest.
I also very hard to look past lines as it's what I've always worked with, artistic freedom is something I have none of.

I know regardless of what I do with the wall something else is also needed in the aquarium; quite what I'm unsure!


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## dean (8 May 2019)

A scarecrow in the Lh field 


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## dean (8 May 2019)

A mobile telephone mast 


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## Andrew Butler (8 May 2019)

dean said:


> A scarecrow in the Lh field
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





dean said:


> A mobile telephone mast
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A step too far for me.


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## obsessed (8 May 2019)

Cows


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## dean (8 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> A step too far for me.



Yeah I was just kidding 


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## obsessed (8 May 2019)

dean said:


> Yeah I was just kidding
> 
> Good old British homour
> Cheer up poeple
> ...


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## Andrew Butler (8 May 2019)

@obsessed 
You've lost me a bit here!


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## obsessed (8 May 2019)

Why is that then
What would you like me to explain


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## LfcFan1977 (8 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I now it's still missing something just not sure what and where so suggestions welcome.


That left hand branch has asked me to type "Rope swing".


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## Andrew Butler (9 May 2019)

I think I'll withdraw the invite of suggestions or ideas on account my aim is to make this not look like a model railway scene or simply stupid.

If you think the wall looks like this then please just say.


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## foxfish (9 May 2019)

Like most hobbies, there will be traditionalists who don’t want to wonder far from the standard Matrix!
You design will be well outside the box for many people but don’t let that put you off , it is your idea , your tank, your home and your pleasure.


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## Andrew Butler (9 May 2019)

foxfish said:


> Like most hobbies, there will be traditionalists who don’t want to wonder far from the standard Matrix!
> You design will be well outside the box for many people but don’t let that put you off , it is your idea , your tank, your home and your pleasure.


Oh, I completely agree - I thought it easier to close the invite of suggestions on account I didn't feel they were following any theme aside from the absurd.


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## dean (9 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I think I'll withdraw the invite of suggestions or ideas on account my aim is to make this not look like a model railway scene or simply stupid.
> 
> If you think the wall looks like this then please just say.



I think people are just having a joke with you and are not criticising the scape 

I love the wall, the amount of work that’s gone into it and think it will look even better (if that’s possible) when the plants have grown in 

It will lead you eye through the landscape 

If you still think you need something on the left 
What about a small tree about 1/4 - 1/3 in from the left ? 
Either wood or a different single plant to represent a tree ? 
small will visually add depth to the scape 

Or you could even have a whole area right across the back of a different slightly taller plant ? To represent the field behind has a different crop in it ? 

Which plants are you thinking of using ? 

Please Remember this is for YOU to look at and enjoy so don’t worry what anyone else thinks 


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## Andrew Butler (9 May 2019)

dean said:


> Please Remember this is for YOU to look at and enjoy so don’t worry what anyone else thinks


I don't worry what everyone else thinks at all dean but it sometimes helps to hear ideas or suggestions from other people, they might give you suggestions that you like 

I think I'll just update the thread when I get to another point.


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## dean (9 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I don't worry what everyone else thinks at all dean but it sometimes helps to hear ideas or suggestions from other people, they might give you suggestions that you like
> 
> I think I'll just update the thread when I get to another point.



But only you can decide which ones you like or don’t like so stoping the naff ones you will also stop the good ones 


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## obsessed (9 May 2019)

Thinking outside the box is why things move forward, this scape is for you and yours. Where's the line drawn for you in the silly department, how can we know that. So when you say that's a bit to much well what is silly and not is so varied in this hobby just by country never mind style and taste.
This is a forum of many minds and the only 1 you have to please is yours.
You ask you get.
I believe that wall is man made.
Ruins are man made.
The path of squashed green grass troden on by humans passing through a short cut.( idea)
Get your end goal and stick to it. It's all great but may slip below the lines of nature.
I think your looking at it as nature has ravaged man made objects which is thinking outside the box. All for it. Or is it ?
 My fish tank had ruins from the Roman's which cost an arm and a leg. This was in the 80,s. This planted tank hobby is 10s of years old and it is advancing very slowly because of these silly rules and stuck minds and repeated crap that people keep blurting out without knowing why and missing out the most important parts,
I'm certainly not a rule advocate in anyway or form, rules are needed for the masses but tend to limit us and squeeze bondarys even tighter. The rules are more of a quick guide in my opinion in that if your imagination or artistic skill is lacking you can rely on the guide lines and rules as a helping hand, they are however very misleading to a new scaper and the styles get blurred because lack of plant skills not to mention algae, then theres the 3rds or and the doubtful golden ratio aspects, sometimes it's best to go back to basics and learn more. ( not you Andrew)
I have to say the lonely tree is my next project and love it, but much less and very simple compared to yours and some will say and think it's because I'm lacking in imagination.This is not ment as as a hose down but you do care what we think and that's also fine. If anything I have learnt as a newbie is that your journal is a way to show off your skills but that's a lonely journal as you dont need help, it can also be a totally different style journal were you need help and members will tell you straightforward answers to help. Many different styles of journal,you carnt please all the people all the time so get on with it and show us your imagination in your project, in the kindest way possible.
Cheers


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## GreenNeedle (9 May 2019)

Like Obsessed says above.  If you ever doubt then read this thread of me "going mad" and then be sure you're not........and read some of the replies.  Some positive, some scorning:

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/threads/abstract-modern-aquascaping.5405/


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## obsessed (9 May 2019)

Again very interesting thread,the valley, good stuff.
I think my first attempt at an iwagumi is quite abstractish. Onwards and forward my fellow scapers.


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## LfcFan1977 (9 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I think I'll withdraw the invite of suggestions or ideas on account my aim is to make this not look like a model railway scene or simply stupid.
> 
> If you think the wall looks like this then please just say.


I'm sorry if your latest post is (partly or) due to my comment, offence was not intended and if you hate my idea, that's perfectly fine, it just popped in my head.
I love the way this scape is going and it's refreshing to see something from outside the box.
Really like the wall but I don't think I would have put as close to the tree or follow the curve of the hill but it's not my aquarium. The fallen branch is a great idea.
Please try to continue on your path of inspiration. You might not get it right this time but it's a fun project and definitely a good journal.


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## Andrew Butler (10 May 2019)

I apologise if I came across as if I'd thrown my toys out of the pram; this is not the case.

Although I don't really care what other people think of my aquarium it is nice to have some input; something along the lines of  'I think the wall looks too formal and lacks interest, maybe adding a fallen tree branch will help break things up' - this is a suggestion I received through PM as they did not want to post on this thread as felt it had just become a joke.
I think the input from other people can give you ideas or suggestions that you may not have thought of which I did not feel was the case and other people managed to offer constructive suggestions and opinions through PM.
I just felt that the suggested ideas were in my opinion a little stupid as I had made it quite clear that I did not want to create something that looked like a 'model railway scene' so adding things such as cows, a scarecrow, telephone mast, tractor etc to me remind me very much of a model railway scene so found it non constructive.
It could just be the case that the whole wall idea is completely 'model railway scene' which I am unsure will be the case or not and if you thought that then I would have appreciated that input.

I'm all for a joke as much as the next person but when most posts are 'model railway scene' orientated I don't find this constructive or helpful to anyone.
What I am possibly doing doesn't fit into a standard aquascaping category but being a lover of British countryside and looking to try and recreate a scene for me to view along with fish seems attractive.
Do I have a picture of what I'm talking about recreating? - No is the answer but in my head and spread across several different photos I do, all of which would work when put together. Whether they would in a planted aquarium, well that's a different matter.


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## Edvet (10 May 2019)

I thind the difference between Amano and the newer diorama's ( railway scene) is size/scale related. He recreates ( the feel) of a piece of nature while the modern diorama types recreate ( the feel) of whole landscapes ( or mountain reaches).
My personal feeling is: smaller is better, hence i prefer Amano over the diorama's ( i prefer even smaller and try to recreate the feeling of the actual biotope).
Maybe adjusting the scale could help.


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## Andrew Butler (10 May 2019)

Edvet said:


> I thind the difference between Amano and the newer diorama's ( railway scene) is size/scale related. He recreates ( the feel) of a piece of nature while the modern diorama types recreate ( the feel) of whole landscapes ( or mountain reaches).
> My personal feeling is: smaller is better, hence i prefer Amano over the diorama's ( i prefer even smaller and try to recreate the feeling of the actual biotope).
> Maybe adjusting the scale could help.


Thanks for the input; I hope I am understanding you correctly as the word diorama and aquascape has far reaches from what I understand.
I think unless you have a massive tank then any kind of diorama with the addition of fish would prove a challenge to anyone and there is a fine line between tasteful and tactless.


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## Tim Harrison (10 May 2019)

Go with it Andrew, and see where it takes you, it's the journey that's important and what you learn from it.
From what I can gather there is often a fine line between model making and aquascaping anyway especially in the diorama style.
At the end of the day it's not a permanent fixture you're going to have to live with for the rest of your life, at some point you'll tear it down and do something different.
But for now just go ahead and execute it to the best of your ability, that way it'll help inform your future scapes.

P.S. for what it's worth, I think it looks great, you just need to get it up and running now 

P.P.S. you also need an avatar


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## Andrew Butler (10 May 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> Go with it Andrew, and see where it takes you, it's the journey that's important and what you learn from it.
> From what I can gather there is often a fine line between model making and aquascaping anyway especially in the diorama style.
> At the end of the day it's not a permanent fixture you're going to have to live with for the rest of your life, at some point you'll tear it down and do something different.
> But for now just go ahead and execute it to the best of your ability, that way it'll help inform your future scapes.


Thanks Tim, it's never going to be everyone's cup of tea but they don't have to look at it either.


Tim Harrison said:


> P.S. for what it's worth, I think it looks great, you just need to get it up and running now


Thanks Tim, it will be there in time.


Tim Harrison said:


> P.P.S. you also need an avatar


done

I'm not down about the comments that in my view were silly or non constructive I just didn't see them as helpful


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## dean (10 May 2019)

I think it will look completely different once the plants are established 
At present all you can focus on is the wall and tree 
The wall will soften with the addition of time and especially if some algae or moss grows on it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## obsessed (10 May 2019)

Hi Andrew
Maybe you read my post or not who knows but this is obviously no place for humour.

I'm not going to jump on  the morally correct gravy train but why not look towards model making items and ideas if that's your thing, the scale for the models will help you The wall needs to be bigger I think as plants will cover it and also it will be hard to scale plants that small. My very humble and inexperienced suggestion


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## mort (10 May 2019)

Hi Andrew,  as you know I'm not an aquascaper so take what you want from my comments.

First I'd decide if this was loosely based on nature or trying to replicate it closer. By that I mean, I'd expect the wall to be bigger if it was natural, simply going by the size of the tree. 

I've also spend a lot of time in the lake district and although agree with you that wall are different throughout the country, they don't tend to be as uniform as yours, at least in my head. What you have is a very skillfully built wall but natural walls are built with whatever rocks are around, therefore not as uniform.

The last point is where the coping stones have been dislodged by the tree limb, I think there should be more damage that's less uniform. I'd try a larger bite out of the main wall with angled damage a bit like you could imagine where sheep jump from field to field.


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## dean (10 May 2019)

Guys 
The wall size will depend on the season 
Obviously in winter it would look bigger as there would be no crops etc 
In the summer the wall could be completely obscured by tall crops 
So the current size maybe right it all depends on if Andrew wants the wall to be prominent in his design or just a way to separate different planting areas 

Also as it’s removable it can always be tweaked by adding extra rows to the bottom if required 

Because the wall is made from slate the thickness of each piece is going to be the same, I don’t think this matters as I believe Andrew is aiming to capture the feel of the English countryside near him and not to replicate it with a full scale model 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GreenNeedle (11 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Thanks for the input; I hope I am understanding you correctly as the word diorama and aquascape has far reaches from what I understand.
> I think unless you have a massive tank then any kind of diorama with the addition of fish would prove a challenge to anyone and there is a fine line between tasteful and tactless.



I've said this before a long time ago but I think what EdVet is saying is similar to what I have said.  Amano made natural scapes that let you decide what they were.  Vague if you like.  They suggest something.  The Diorama which tend to dominate the competitions now try to replicate.  They remove the ambiguity and thus what you see is what it is.

With that in mind your direction will take the scape in one direction or another.  Yes there is no getting away from "that is a wall" but a wall doing what?  A wall where?  What is behind, to the left.  You can have things like your wall that cannot be anything but a wall but that doesn't mean that you then have to continue this (direct instruction) across the scape.

I argued this before in terms of "art or craft" where I argued that if you remove the element of interpretation then you move too close to instructing the viewer that "this is X, no argument. In my opinion."

The counter to my argument was/is photography is art, lifelike sculpture is art.

For me personally I like to be able to use my own imagination rather than what is put in front of me saying "you are viewing X.  It is X.  There is no argument other than this is X."


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## Andrew Butler (11 May 2019)

obsessed said:


> Hi Andrew
> Maybe you read my post or not who knows but this is obviously no place for humour.
> 
> I'm not going to jump on  the morally correct gravy train but why not look towards model making items and ideas if that's your thing, the scale for the models will help you The wall needs to be bigger I think as plants will cover it and also it will be hard to scale plants that small. My very humble and inexperienced suggestion


I'm all for humour but when your initial posts were suggestions of cows and a Christmas scene after me saying the likes of a scarecrow and mobile telephone mast were too far for me, and of course the comment good old British humour I didn't see as constructive or helpful at all.
Some would and did see this as offensive so chose to PM me instead of comment on the thread.
The fact you offended others by your comments is the reason I chose to not respond to you.


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## oscar (11 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I'm all for humour but when your initial posts were suggestions of cows and a Christmas scene after me saying the likes of a scarecrow and mobile telephone mast were too far for me, and of course the comment good old British humour I didn't see as constructive or helpful at all.
> Some would and did see this as offensive so chose to PM me instead of comment on the thread.
> The fact you offended others by your comments is the reason I chose to not respond to you.


Hi Andrew,
Have you any photos of updates , I think it’s productive to as much as possible try out as much ideas.One thought though always best to make as natural as possible/ blend into nature. My daughter try to persuade me to add a sponge bob square pants into my current nature style aqua 600 scape -  its not going to be happening


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## Andrew Butler (11 May 2019)

mort said:


> Hi Andrew,  as you know I'm not an aquascaper so take what you want from my comments.
> 
> First I'd decide if this was loosely based on nature or trying to replicate it closer. By that I mean, I'd expect the wall to be bigger if it was natural, simply going by the size of the tree.
> 
> ...


Hey Mort,
Nature or natural things as I understand are non man made so any kind of attempt at a dry stone wall will never be a natural thing, on account of this alone it will never be trying to replicate nature.
I'm well aware the wall looks very uniform but realistically I don't have the skillset or time to make anything much more realistic looking so using roughly uniform shapes as a basis I think are the best way forward for me.
A lot of the wall will also be lost with planting so by the time I have added the remaining coping stones, caused the damage from the fallen tree and also around the tree trunk I think it could look ok.



GreenNeedle said:


> I've said this before a long time ago but I think what EdVet is saying is similar to what I have said.  Amano made natural scapes that let you decide what they were.  Vague if you like.  They suggest something.  The Diorama which tend to dominate the competitions now try to replicate.  They remove the ambiguity and thus what you see is what it is.
> 
> With that in mind your direction will take the scape in one direction or another.  Yes there is no getting away from "that is a wall" but a wall doing what?  A wall where?  What is behind, to the left.  You can have things like your wall that cannot be anything but a wall but that doesn't mean that you then have to continue this (direct instruction) across the scape.
> 
> ...


I think the main thing about this wall is it's not a natural thing.
Maybe you could explain to me a bit more in a laymen's term what you mean - I'm maybe not understanding what you mean e.g. (direct instruction) or you are viewing X etc
I am interested to hear what you have to say.
Andrew



oscar said:


> Hi Andrew,
> Have you any photos of updates , I think it’s productive to as much as possible try out as much ideas.One thought though always best to make as natural as possible/ blend into nature. My daughter try to persuade me to add a sponge bob square pants into my current nature style aqua 600 scape - its not going to be happening


I've not really done much else, just having a toy around with a few bits and other ideas I've got. The wall has never been anything I've decided will stay but I do like the idea of it and as I've said before I think when the plants are grown in and those few details added the uniformity will not be so noticeable. Maybe I could be completely wrong about this?!

I do think that there could be an aquarium that looked tactful with such details and does not 100% resemble nature.
Something not normally done but it's still a planted aquarium and that's what this forum is all about isn't it?


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## mort (11 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> Hey Mort,
> Nature or natural things as I understand are non man made so any kind of attempt at a dry stone wall will never be a natural thing, on account of this alone it will never be trying to replicate nature.
> I'm well aware the wall looks very uniform but realistically I don't have the skillset or time to make anything much more realistic looking so using roughly uniform shapes as a basis I think are the best way forward for me.
> A lot of the wall will also be lost with planting so by the time I have added the remaining coping stones, caused the damage from the fallen tree and also around the tree trunk I think it could look ok.



Fair enough Andrew, think my opinion is skewed by having a classic Cumbrian wall in my head and its hard to see past it. Perhaps natural was a poor choice of words, I simply meant that I'd expect the wall to be in a state where it shows a little age and degradation. I completely understand the limitations of the base materials and don't have your planting plan in my head like you. This is why I asked the first question in my post albeit badly, simply if this was inspired to closely mimic a natural scene (picture postcard scene) or your take on a scene?


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## Andrew Butler (12 May 2019)

mort said:


> I simply meant that I'd expect the wall to be in a state where it shows a little age and degradation.


This is something that will hopefully be added with the completion of the wall along with the 'damage' and adjustments yet to be made - the wall is not finished.
I don't think I can describe what I'm looking to achieve but it will be my take on a scene that will evolve, takes steps forwards - and backwards and at the end hopefully I will end up with a planted aquarium I find aesthetically pleasing.
It's not going to look natural or organic in form but I have a rough idea of what I hope it will look like in time.


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## obsessed (12 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> I'm all for humour but when your initial posts were suggestions of cows and a Christmas scene after me saying the likes of a scarecrow and mobile telephone mast were too far for me, and of course the comment good old British humour I didn't see as constructive or helpful at all.
> Some would and did see this as offensive so chose to PM me instead of comment on the thread.
> The fact you offended others by your comments is the reason I chose to not respond to you.


Hi Andrew
I did make a joke regarding the cows which may have been out of turn.
Like I said maybe the wrong place for humour.
In regards the link it was to show you that you can take it to far of in my view. That's all
No offense was ment by my post or any other post.
The humour comment was in aid of us.me making light of what you could add to your scape.
No malice hear.
Peace and love


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2019)

I've never been looking to make an aquascape or planted aquarium that fits any particular style and just want to achieve something that to me at least I find easy enough to maintain, enjoyable to look at and a happy enough place for the inhabitants.
Since this idea of the wall from @dean which to point out I quite like things have got silly on this thread so I think drawing a line under the past 4/5 pages and moving on is a good idea as I don't think it's helped anyone.

This is roughly how things looked before the addition of any wall.





The next 2 photos show roughly how things look now. I plan to continue the coping stones in the second photo around the top of the wall.
I do plan to cause some 'damage' to the wall; around the tree and also where you can see the fallen branch further down to break things up a bit hopefully.


 

 

The next two photos show roughly how I view the aquarium from the two different viewpoints and might help to show how the substrate layout helps even with the water diffraction and why the path heads to the front corner.


 


 

The next photo shows a rough outline of the general kind of direction I'm thinking about taking a path although I am unsure what construction to use.
It is only a rough shape and would be made smaller in places so it looks like it was tapering towards the back.
I know sand or gravel alone will just be blown around, I also think that slate alone will mean too much slate so this is something I am currently thinking about.


 


I do still question the wall!
I know it is far from finished, there is a lot of work to do with the substrate levels, 'damaging' the wall, building a path and of course lets not forget planting it out.

Although it's something that draws this further towards the tactless I do like the idea of at least trying a photographic background showing some interesting clouds.
I will probably hate it all by the time it's planted out but it might just be something I do try and see where it gets me.

I know there are many things I should do before I show any further progress but it will just take time and will get done as and when.
I've never set out to follow a particular style as I've already said but I would also like to achieve a planted aquarium that I enjoy looking at - whether that happens this time; we will see!


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## dean (13 May 2019)

I think the path is much to wide and not in scale with the wall 
If you used a long piece of slate in the shape you want but then stuck broken pieces onto to say the same width as the wall I think it’s scale would be much better 
Also you will have gaps in the top path layer which will add interest and an extra depth 

If it’s a natural scene then wouldn’t the path be made of the same material as the wall ? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2019)

dean said:


> I think the path is much to wide and not in scale with the wall





Andrew Butler said:


> The next photo shows a rough outline of the general kind of direction I'm thinking about taking a path although I am unsure what construction to use.
> It is only a rough shape and would be made smaller in places so it looks like it was tapering towards the back.


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2019)

UPDATE!.........a major thing; the wall might just go, it's never been a definite; infact it's out at the moment as there's some work to do on it at the very least.
I've been weighing up the pros and cons and the fact is from my point of view a wall of some kind has more pros than cons.


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## obsessed (13 May 2019)

Moving on, I liked it in dec 2018, the tree looks wind swept and very natural, just a small idea like a windswept tree in high wind with no protection from the elements, I have a few bonsai trees so love the tree idea,  have a look at some windswept stuff might inspire, the path does not have to be made of hardware you could manipulate plant type, colour, so it looks like a raised or sunken path of flora.


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2019)

obsessed said:


> Moving on, I liked it in dec 2018, the tree looks wind swept and very natural, just a small idea like a windswept tree in high wind with no protection from the elements, I have a few bonsai trees so love the tree idea,  have a look at some windswept stuff might inspire, the path does not have to be made of hardware you could manipulate plant type, colour, so it looks like a raised or sunken path of flora.


The whole idea of changing things up now is me wanting to add a little interest to it that also helped me simplify maintenance, so if I could use a wall which was solid then I could keep plant 'A' in that area and plant 'B' the other side.
The general idea of the wall did that for me and adding a pathway in of some description added yet another division for plant 'C'
Plants A,B and C would all be carpeting plants then I could add some other little bits here and there like some Rotala Bonsai and buces.
I could also add a few smaller stones into the carpet to add a little more interest but these are just ideas in my head.
The wall might still make an appearance as I like the proposed look it gave to the aquarium looking at it without now.


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## obsessed (13 May 2019)

The wall has a lot of great detail and is made really well. I think the main thing to look at is the wall has to diminish or change in height  a bit more for agreater prospective.


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2019)

obsessed said:


> The wall has a lot of great detail and is made really well. I think the main thing to look at is the wall has to diminish or change in height for  a bit more for greater prospective.


You've no need to say it's brilliant if you dont think so! Maybe I should have finished things and planted it before I posted the pictures to avoid any confusion about its final look. I'm more thinking about its start/end position and shape now.
Oh and a path that will be made from hardscape of one type or another which will require some experimentation.


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## obsessed (13 May 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> You've no need to say it's brilliant if you dont think so!


I wouldn't, it is well made. Infact if was bigger a lot bigger you could see the detail and pop moss in between. Just ideas
I live very close to some amazing walls built by the Moroccan nation many moons ago.
It's all about the journey


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## Andrew Butler (13 May 2019)

obsessed said:


> I wouldn't, it is well made. Infact if was bigger a lot bigger you could see the detail and pop moss in between. Just ideas
> I live very close to some amazing walls built by the Moroccan nation many moons ago.
> It's all about the journey


If I started to make the wall any bigger then in my opinion it would be out of scale with the tree as I see it, I could make it taller but I don't see the need.
In the UK we have same massive trees that stay there years after they have died which is how I see this.
I imagine if you were to ask everyone in the UK to show a picture of what they see as a typical dry stone wall then there would be many different suggestions; especially by region.
There are many different types and styles within 30 minutes of my home. I would imagine your idea of a dry stone wall would differ very much from mine.
This wall has never set out to replicate any particular wall type but designed so that not only it is easy to build but also so that when you are sat 1.5m+ away it gives enough interest and to be honest neither the perp joints or courses in the slate are so noticeable but I have no real concern there either, it's only really when you get up close you begin to notice these things.
Also it's a planted aquarium not something intended to be an architectural model of a hillside scene although if it looks half good I'll be very happy.
Moss is something I'm looking to possibly avoid due to it taking over the tank, I've heard people having problems keeping it under control and I think I'll get enough algae on the wall to give it interest! 
There are places I know some of the smaller leafed Bucephalandra will happily nestle in the wall once the main carpet's grown in.

This whole style is to find the balance of style over substance for me.
It won't be finished overnight and I will put time to it when I have the energy and opportunity.


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## obsessed (13 May 2019)

I am actually British, the last place I had the very great pleasure of living was Great Witley in Worcestershire close to Whitly court, amazing countryside. I get style over substance I also get taking your time.
Having true patience is an art in itself


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## Andrew Butler (12 Jun 2019)

So it's pretty much a month since I've updated any progress and there hasn't been any really!
I've added the 'skyscape' background which I'm happy with but the true test is when it's full of water and plants.
I've finished the top of the walls but still have the fallen rubble to add along with final substrate levels.

Now I'm starting on the pathway but this will probably take a bit of time - like everything I do.
Since the photo I have tapered the right hand side of the path towards the back.
I've opted for Dennerle Baikal gravel which matches the walls, too much slate? - we will see.
I'm wondering the best way to do this so put a thread out to hear peoples ideas.


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## LfcFan1977 (12 Jun 2019)

The curves of the pathway seems rather unnatural. Any person/animal would go in a more direct angle or follow the contours of the landscape. Similary, walls usually go in straighter lines.
Perhaps, instead of a path, a stream would be a better fit, as the wall and tree do look good as they are.
Are you planning on putting stones back around the fallen branch?
I'm not feeling the background. If the landscape rose and then dropped at the rear (as if cresting a hill) it might seem more natural but right now it appears the sky crashes into the ground. Maybe it's the lack of grassland or just the image.


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## rebel (13 Jun 2019)

Such an unusual and original scape idea. Keep at it!!!


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## foxfish (13 Jun 2019)

Great, just keep going in the same direction......


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## Andrew Butler (13 Jun 2019)

LfcFan1977 said:


> The curves of the pathway seems rather unnatural. Any person/animal would go in a more direct angle or follow the contours of the landscape. Similary, walls usually go in straighter lines





Andrew Butler said:


> along with final substrate levels


If you look at the back left there is a hill so I could argue the path does follow a contour but after input from other people


LfcFan1977 said:


> a stream would be a better fit


How would I achieve this?


LfcFan1977 said:


> Are you planning on putting stones back around the fallen branch?





Andrew Butler said:


> still have the fallen rubble to add


hopefully this answers your question?
Do me a favour and just don't comment on this thread anymore - if you don't like it that's fine but at least take the time to read through a post before commenting or give some more constructive comments with more detail.
Maybe how you think the path (or stream) should be constructed or direction



rebel said:


> Such an unusual and original scape idea. Keep at it!!!





foxfish said:


> Great, just keep going in the same direction......


Thank you both - people who maybe understand not everything has to conform and my planted aquarium has never set out to replicate anything natural which I think the wall demonstrates straight away.


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## Andrew Butler (13 Jun 2019)

Still some work to do but here's standing right now; constructive advice or suggestions welcome!

Still lots on the to do list but as a minimum:
-Need to try a longer backlight but also need to get some pipes and tubing up the back right long term, this may show why this cloud pattern could work.
-Some larger pieces of slate to add into the slopes as/where I feel them needed - if at all
-Still have the rubble piles to construct to go in front of the walls.


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## amberz (13 Jun 2019)

I'm liking your scape Andrew, it's different and imaginative. The first image I ever saw, that blew my mind and introduced me to aquascaping about 3 years ago, was this one:



 

I love these full scene scapes and really appreciate the skill that must go into them. I tried to make one myself with a "tree" but it really didn't cut the mustard lol. I used hydrocotyle tripartita for the leaves, but with no co2 it looked rough, so changed it out for bolbitis which gave quite a good effect. Scale is very difficult to achieve and mine was definitely off.


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## LfcFan1977 (14 Jun 2019)

LfcFan1977 said:


> The curves of the pathway seems rather unnatural. Any person/animal would go in a more direct angle or follow the contours of the landscape.
> I'm not feeling the background. If the landscape rose and then dropped at the rear (as if cresting a hill) it might seem more natural but right now it appears the sky crashes into the ground. Maybe it's the lack of grassland or just the image.





Andrew Butler said:


> If you look at the back left there is a hill so I could argue the path does follow a contour but after input from other people


I've looked at the back left and I would argue that there appears to be a slope (from the front centre, up to the rear left corner) but not a hill. Hills rise and fall, much like the image posted by Amberz (post #182).
Earlier in this journal the path design went from the front left corner and curved left towards the rear centre. It looked more natural. As apposed to the newer design of left, then right and curving left again.


LfcFan1977 said:


> Perhaps, instead of a path, a stream would be a better fit





Andrew Butler said:


> How would I achieve this?


You could achieve this any number of ways. There are probably hundreds of images of stream like designs in an aquarium/aquascape for you to research yourself. UKAPS would be a good place to start for inspiration.


LfcFan1977 said:


> Are you planning on putting stones back around the fallen branch?





Andrew Butler said:


> hopefully this answers your question?
> Do me a favour and just don't comment on this thread anymore - if you don't like it that's fine but at least take the time to read through a post before commenting or give me some more constructive comments with more detail.
> Maybe how you think the path (or stream) should be constructed or direction


You just answered my question with a question but followed it up with a request. That request was to not respond.
I missed one short sentence from you. This journal is not the only thing I follow in my BUSY life.
I may still coment on this thread after this post.
I'm not here to tell you where to place every stone or what I would do. IT IS YOUR SCAPE.
If you do not like anybodies ideas or responces then don't reply or be civil if you do.


Andrew Butler said:


> I'm quite confident I can add some more smaller pieces of wood to the structure and make them almost look as thought they've been there all along/natural.





Andrew Butler said:


> people who maybe understand not everything has to conform and my planted aquarium has never set out to replicate anything natural which I think the wall demonstrates straight away.


I find you very confusing, rude and condescending.
The wall looks very natural, compared to what I've seen during my lifetime. However the direction and curvature of the wall makes it look "model railway".


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## Tim Harrison (14 Jun 2019)

Guys please keep it civil. Sometimes forums aren't the best medium for communication and misunderstandings can occur, especially when asking for, or giving, feedback on something that's been worked on long and hard. Please take a step back and consider the wording of future posts carefully. One of the reasons UKAPS is still going strong when most other similar forums have died is because there is a culture of politely respecting other members, and different views.


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## lazybones51 (14 Jun 2019)

Loving the creativity going in to this, it's so unique. However my OCD can't deal with the branch resting on the wall 

Keep up the good work!


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## rebel (14 Jun 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> people who maybe understand not everything has to conform


Haha agree! Look at some of the Olver Knott scapes with skulls. You gotta find your own style. Ask oneself whether you are brave enough to arrange it the way you like it. Not the way IAPLC wants you to.


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## Zeus. (15 Jun 2019)

I like it M8  unsure about the fallen branch, but thats a minor detail easy changed OFC


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## dean (15 Jun 2019)

I’ve like the idea from day 1 
Love the background 
The fact that you have two different light sources for different effects is cool 
Have you thought of the remote controlled led strip for the night time effect you could make some cool sunsets with reds etc they are cheap don’t take up any room and are waterproof 

Hills don’t have to be big 
If you lay on flat grass land where the next level is lower the sky meets the level you are on - shortening the horizon from infinity to very close 

It’s great to see someone trying new things 

I have a crazy upside down one that I want to create one day 

Can’t wait to see this scape planted and grown in 




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## Ed Wiser (15 Jun 2019)

If that is what YOU like then do it.


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## Bon MotMot (17 Jun 2019)

New set of eyes looking at this scape. I love the shape of the tree and the backlit version in the first photo really brings the negative spaces out. I also like the fallen branch on the wall; it tells a story. Looking forwards to seeing it planted!


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## grathod (17 Jun 2019)

really nice scape this Andrew, there are loads of scenes that are very similar in real life to what you want to achieve so big thumbs up. once planted up this would be remarkable. just a suggestion, if you somehow add another branch that has fallen from your main tree and leaning left towards the one that protrudes from the wall and covered in moss as most fallen trunks do, may just provide the transition you need. either way still a handsome scape. love the atmosphere the clouds in the background offer. watching with interest.


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## Andrew Butler (17 Jun 2019)

rebel said:


> Such an unusual and original scape idea. Keep at it!!!





foxfish said:


> Great, just keep going in the same direction......





amberz said:


> I'm liking your scape Andrew, it's different and imaginative





lazybones51 said:


> Loving the creativity going in to this, it's so unique. However my OCD can't deal with the branch resting on the wall





Zeus. said:


> I like it M8  unsure about the fallen branch, but thats a minor detail easy changed OFC





dean said:


> I’ve like the idea from day 1
> Love the background
> The fact that you have two different light sources for different effects is cool
> Have you thought of the remote controlled led strip for the night time effect you could make some cool sunsets with reds etc they are cheap don’t take up any room and are waterproof





dean said:


> It’s great to see someone trying new things





Ed Wiser said:


> If that is what YOU like then do it.





Bon MotMot said:


> New set of eyes looking at this scape. I love the shape of the tree and the backlit version in the first photo really brings the negative spaces out. I also like the fallen branch on the wall; it tells a story. Looking forwards to seeing it planted!



I will try and reply to all of the posts at once as there seem to be a couple of main trends I think, anything not answered then please ask away or as ever constructive criticism or suggestions welcome.

It's unusual/different; This idea isn't for everyone, I'm fully aware of that and maybe not even for me! I was looking back through the pictures of how it started and there was always something I had pictured and knew I wanted to add something more than just the variety of plants and not pieces of stone - I know slate  is a type of stone but I think you will get what I'm saying.
The fallen branch was a suggestion from someone else and do I/don't I like it, I'm not sure! It again seems to have split opinions so @lazybones51 and @Zeus. what would you do different.
@dean it is a light that you can change the colours on.

I just need to work on long term inlets/outlets I can position on the side along with my doser pipes etc, possibly thinking about putting black vinyl on the right hand side and adding it all there.
If I put any of this on the back it will cause shadowing from the backlighting. I will start things off with a spraybar running along the back until the plants have started spreading and then think about it from there.
I really like stainless steel skimmer inlets but the ones I have/can find don't have decent lily pipes to match without clumsy looking plastic brackets also a bit noisy.
Maybe a spraybar running the width instead of the length? - not so sure on this.
This is all assuming I can get away with using just one Fluval G6 filter for things.

Plants are pretty much there but the big one is with regard to MC/HC; I was thinking about using HC in the central section and MC on the left hand side of the path but unsure if this will look right.
When the HC/MC have grown in add some Eleocharis, Rotala Bonsai, Staurogyne Repens here and there amongst it and some small buce to the wall.
Marsilea hirsuta and Marsilea crenata mixed together behind the wall and up the slope behind the tree, depending how it grows in will dictate what else, if anything I will put there.


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## Zeus. (17 Jun 2019)

I would use HC to back and MC to the front so the leaf size should help give it more depth.

I find myself focusing on the branch so without it I feel my focus would be drawn into the Scape better. Almost feels like the branch is photo bombing the Scape.

Lonely tree or Tree and branch


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## Andrew Butler (17 Jun 2019)

grathod said:


> really nice scape this Andrew, there are loads of scenes that are very similar in real life to what you want to achieve so big thumbs up. once planted up this would be remarkable. just a suggestion, if you somehow add another branch that has fallen from your main tree and leaning left towards the one that protrudes from the wall and covered in moss as most fallen trunks do, may just provide the transition you need. either way still a handsome scape. love the atmosphere the clouds in the background offer. watching with interest.


I missed this one  - any chance you add what you mean to a photo in paint or similar as I'm not picturing it in my head?
I'm not really wanting to add moss as it seems very keen to take the tank over if you're not careful from what I've read so hoping to find some miniature Buce with a bit of a red/purple tinge to them if I can find some.
The cloud picture isn't necessarily my first choice but it is more of an experiment and is the only photo I had which was decent enough in quality and I think adds enough.
Thanks for the input though.


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## Andrew Butler (17 Jun 2019)

Zeus. said:


> I would use HC to back and MC to the front so the leaf size should help give it more depth.
> 
> I find myself focusing on the branch so without it I feel my focus would be drawn into the Scape better. Almost feels like the branch is photo bombing the Scape.
> 
> Lonely tree or Tree and branch



I will rename it cloudy sky for now as it's not such a lonely tree anymore - I have elsewhere, just not here.
The fallen branch was a suggestion from elsewhere to take the uniformity out of the wall which I thought I'd try and maybe it will look a bit less of a 'photobomb' when the plants have grown around and the rubble pile is underneath - we will see!
I've a feeling the wall will be lost when the plants grow in anyway so time will tell.

I've never mixed HC/MC together so don't know quite how that would work, unsure if anyone else has?


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## Zeus. (17 Jun 2019)

The MC does tend to take over the HC with time as the MC tends to grow faster - well did in my 50l when it was in their.

HC is hard work keeping it short also esp in your big tank, but you've been their already 

Yes the wall may soon disappear - maybe a few more courses


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## Andrew Butler (17 Jun 2019)

Zeus. said:


> The MC does tend to take over the HC with time as the MC tends to grow faster - well did in my 50l when it was in their.
> 
> HC is hard work keeping it short also esp in your big tank, but you've been their already
> 
> Yes the wall may soon disappear - maybe a few more courses


I've never had a tank fully carpeted out, finished etc with HC - only MC which I found okay.
This is all quite an experiment anyway; if it works great, if not then I will have to think again for next time and it may not last as long as I had hoped.
I was going to make the wall higher but stopped for some reason; it's too late really to start adding as it's all stuck together and has the copings. Would I have done it different another time? - yes, probably I would but this is an experiment like most things I do.


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## dean (18 Jun 2019)

If you wanted to make the wall taller couldn’t you add extra courses to the bottom as the top is finished ? 


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## rebel (18 Jun 2019)

Zeus. said:


> HC to back and MC to the front


Good idea.

Also a mixed carpet may help also with different sized marselia species etc. Mini pelia maybe on the tree.

Scale might be a challenge in this one. Keen to see how it evolves after planting.


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## Andrew Butler (18 Jun 2019)

dean said:


> If you wanted to make the wall taller couldn’t you add extra courses to the bottom as the top is finished ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd thought about this and decided against it mainly just to see what I have turns out like and how much taller a future project would need to be.


rebel said:


> Also a mixed carpet may help also with different sized marselia species etc


I'm going to keep the Marsilea just behind the wall on the right hand side but if this is what you meant then I was going to try just Quadrifolia and Crenata as I believe them to be the lower growing which is what I'm after; although I've no experience with this plant. I've no intentions as things stand to put any plants with real height in.


rebel said:


> Scale might be a challenge in this one.


It may sound lazy but I'm not so fussed about scale, at the minute it's just a planted aquarium for me to enjoy looking at hopefully.


rebel said:


> Mini pelia maybe on the tree.


I've considered a few options in the past and had quite a few suggested with regard to planting the tree and at the moment I'm going to leave it bare; see how it looks when the main plants have filled out and again when I've added the other plants into the left and middle sections after the MC/HC has filled in..


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## Andrew Butler (19 Jul 2019)

So I planted it around 4 weeks ago and here's progress so far.
I'd expected more of the MC but aside from the first week I've not done as many water changes as I'd like or ferts.
Still lots to do but it's progress in one way


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## CooKieS (19 Jul 2019)

Nice growth!


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## lazybones51 (19 Jul 2019)

That's filled in nicely!


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## Jayefc1 (19 Jul 2019)

Looks really cool mate


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## dean (19 Jul 2019)

Love it 
You must be pleased with what you have achieved so far 
Any plans to get an online heater or change the inlet & outlet to clear acrylic or even glass ? 


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## oscar (20 Jul 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> So I planted it around 4 weeks ago and here's progress so far.
> I'd expected more of the MC but aside from the first week I've not done as many water changes as I'd like or ferts.
> Still lots to do but it's progress in one way
> 
> View attachment 125971 View attachment 125972



Very nice...I think you are onto something here a change from the norm/ in a good way


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## Andrew Butler (20 Jul 2019)

I've got to this point with the aquarium and due to my health I'm having to try and be sensible and look towards the future which involves ripping the cabinets where the aquarium is out. 
I'm going to keep it going and let it grow in for now unless someone comes up with a sensible offer.
This would be for the glass aquarium, substrate, tree and plants. - I could of course throw in some mature media and water if you bring some containers to take it all home in.
I could do a deal on a Fluval G6 too if you wanted for filtration.

I do intend to keep this going for now though and once things are sorted will return with something on the new cabinets.


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