# Cycling with Ammonia from Choloramine



## NotoriousENG (5 Aug 2021)

Hey everyone,

I've been reading through cycling-related threads here and noticed that UKAPS seems to have a different view on cycling than the other large plant forum I haunt. Since its also been a long time since I cycled (or kept) a tank I was hoping to check a few things related to the cycle.

The thank in question is a 20 gallon long-running a 10-gallon sump with three 2" thick sheets of poret foam. I also recently some polyfill brand project fleece to help fight some cloudiness. The substrate is boiled and baked worm castings mixed with black diamond blasting sand and a little red clay capped with more blasting sand. The tank has been set up for five days now and I have been performing daily 40 ish % water changes (about as large as I can do without draining the sump). Between the chloramines in my tap water (treated with prime) and substrate leaching, I have been running consistently at between .5 and 1.0 ppm ammonia. I initially thought I saw some nitrites earlier in the week but now appears to have been a testing error or a fluke. I am planning to try skipping a water change to see if I can ease back to every other day and eventually weekly.

So my question is whether the ammonia level I am seeing is sufficient to "cycle" the tank? I'm also wondering if I am understanding the general sentiment here that all is needed is to just take care of the plants and wait?

One thing to note is that I am planning on keeping white clouds and neo shrimp in this tank. As such, the tank is unheated which from I understand will slow things down? Also, to ensure I have a good shrimp colony, I am planning to add the shrimp before the white clouds to give them a chance to populate (after the tank is ready of course!).


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## dw1305 (5 Aug 2021)

Hi all,


NotoriousENG said:


> So my question is whether the ammonia level I am seeing is sufficient to "cycle" the tank? I'm also wondering if I am understanding the general sentiment here that all is needed is to just take care of the plants and wait?


Any level of ammonia is enough, the microbial assemblage will fine tune itself over time <"to the ammonia loading">. That is why "_plants and time_" works, you have both a <"diverse microbial community  and plants"> and as well as their separate contribution you also have the <"synergistic aspect"> of <"plant/microbe biofiltration">.

Planted tanks are <"never really "cycled"> in the sense of being reliant on the <"nitrifying filter bacteria">, they have plant/microbe biofiltration, which is much more flexible and can deal with much larger bioloads.

Have a look at <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">, the whole thread is worth a read.


NotoriousENG said:


> noticed that UKAPS seems to have a different view on cycling than the other large plant forum I haunt.


Cycling  is an <"incredibly divisive subject area">, and I'll be honest on most forums you don't get a <"lot of informed debate">. This is usually because people aren't <"referencing recent scientific papers">. 

They either just repeat what is written elsewhere, or they refer back to papers that are twenty-five years old and often don't even reflect that authors <"current view">.

cheers Darrel


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## NotoriousENG (11 Aug 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Any level of ammonia is enough, the microbial assemblage will fine tune itself over time /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle.62149/page-2#post-613258']to the ammonia loading[/URL]">. That is why "_plants and time_" works, you have both a /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bedside-aquarium.56709/page-4#post-561387']diverse microbial community and plants[/URL]"> and as well as their separate contribution you also have the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/filter-experiment-to-control-algae.66130/#post-653824']synergistic aspect[/URL]"> of /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/how-to-know-if-your-tank-is-cycling.43253/page-3#post-464320']plant/microbe biofiltration[/URL]">.
> 
> ...


Thank You! Awesome information in those links you posted.

The tank appears to be "cycling" quickly with high levels of nitrite already appearing. Current plan is to do twice weekly water changes and just let the tank do its thing for another few weeks before introducing shrimp. I might add some snails sooner once nitrite drops to zero but still undecided.

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## dw1305 (11 Aug 2021)

Hi all,
Yes, just keep changing some water. I like six weeks for growing in, but if the plants are growing well, you could add some snails and see what happens.

Most "less fancy" snails have some tolerance of ammonia.

Cheers Darrel


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## NotoriousENG (25 Aug 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Yes, just keep changing some water. I like six weeks for growing in, but if the plants are growing well, you could add some snails and see what happens.
> 
> Most "less fancy" snails have some tolerance of ammonia.
> ...


Just wanted to check in and make sure things are progressing as they should. About 3.5 weeks in and I've been ammonia free for almost two weeks. However, nitrites refuse to drop. I have not been monitoring nitrates since it seems pointless due to dosing them. Plants are growing albeit seemingly slowly and look a bit pale so something might be off with my ferts.

I must have ran a test wrong since nitrites appeared to be zero at one point and I ended up wirh two nerite snails and mystery snail (I should have known better). To keep them happy I've being doing water changes 2-3 times a week to keep nitrites in the "light purple" and overdosing prime.

So my question is if this pace is normal? This tank is unheated (68-72 F) so imagine that slows everything down? I do have a heater I could add to speed things along if it would be useful.

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## dw1305 (25 Aug 2021)

Hi all, 


NotoriousENG said:


> I do have a heater I could add to speed things along if it would be useful.


It probably isn't making a huge amount of difference, but you could try 75oF (24oC).


NotoriousENG said:


> However, nitrites refuse to drop. I have not been monitoring nitrates since it seems pointless due to dosing them.


Strange I've no idea why, although it may take a while for  <"nitrite (NO2-) oxidising bacteria to build up">. Nitrite is usually one of the easier monovalent ions to test for. 


NotoriousENG said:


> Plants are growing albeit seemingly slowly and look a bit pale so something might be off with my ferts.


A photo would be really useful. 

cheers Darrel


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## NotoriousENG (25 Aug 2021)

Took some pics prior to usual lights on so the ludwigia species are still folded closed for the night. Figures this would show the top and bottoms of leaves better. I apologize for the poor quality. All I have is my phone. Luckily its waterproof so taking some pics from inside the tank seemed to be better.

Things I'm seeing, the ludwigia seems to be pale but I'm not sure if it's lacking nutrients or changing color due to getting closer to the light.

The anubias is putting up a weird gray pink leaf, might be normal but its been so long since my last tank I don't remember what the new leaves look like. The anubias also has browning on old leafs, I suspect this is due to it previously being grown emmersed.

Frogbit doesent look great but I have suspicions its because of the amount of flow its getting hit with. It also gets a bit beat up during water changes I think.

Seeing some brown algae (diatoms?) on a few leaves of hydrocoytle and older crypts leaves. Pretty minor all in all.

Some recent growing of the DHG, might be diatoms or a die off. I did dose the tank once with excel over the weekend since I thought I saw some thread algae but now I think I imagine it. Might have made the DHG mad?

Pale leaves on the buce, not sure this is new growth since they've only been in the tank for a week or so. Might be bleaching?






















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## NotoriousENG (27 Aug 2021)

Work was busy this week so been 4 days since the last water change. Previously was doing doing one every 2-3 days for the snails. Tested water tonight and nitrites are holding, maybe even a little decrease. Triple ran the test to confirm. So looks like I'm making some progress which is good. Either that or my substrate had stopped leaching. Even if it has with the rate which the tank seems to generate detritus and mulm I would think there plenty of ammonia being created.

In other less good news some sort of thread algae engulfed some my buces litteraly overnight (top center in picture). I went to pull it off with a tooth brush and all the leaves on one of the buces fell off. The plant next to it is also effected but not as bad. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the melting might be the cause of the algae as the other buces appear to be algae free and have only a little of any melt. The buces are from tissue culture which I heard melt sometimes?



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## dw1305 (27 Aug 2021)

Hi all,


NotoriousENG said:


> Frogbit doesent look great but I have suspicions


It looks like it maybe <"iron deficient">.

cheers Darrel


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## NotoriousENG (27 Aug 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> It looks like it maybe /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/brown-fuzzy-algae-unhealthy-plants-and-dosing-questions.64402/page-2#post-641643']iron deficient[/URL]">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Thanks Darrel, that was my thought based on the white/pale new growth of the ludwigia but didn't want to jump conclusions before checking with the gurus.

Since I already dose .09 ppm Fe via CSM+b six days a week (0.54 weekly) I think it's safe to say it's time to get some Fe-DTPA?

My degassed pH is in the mid to upper 7s so I suspect my iron isn't sticking around long. I try to dose the CSM right before lights when the pH is pushed below 7 by the C02 but looks like it's not working great. 

I suppose I could have a bad batch of CSM considering I had iron problems in my last tank as well (~6 years ago). Granted, I had even higher pH back then.

Is pH a concern for the other trace nutrients? Wondering I should look for a trace mix with DTPA instead EDTA?

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## John q (27 Aug 2021)

Forgive me for not reading this thread correctly, but how did we get from cycling with chloramine to iron deficiency?


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## jaypeecee (27 Aug 2021)

NotoriousENG said:


> However, nitrites refuse to drop.


Hi @NotoriousENG 

This is a common problem during cycling. Some species of nitrifying bacteria appear to struggle with nitrite. Dr Tim Hovanec identified Nitrospira moscoviensis as being a good choice for this task and incorporated it in _Dr Tim's One and Only_ and it was then adopted by Tetra in _SafeStart_. Other possibilities are that alkalinity has fallen below 4dKH* and/or phosphate has fallen much below 0.2 mg/litre. Phosphate is very important as nitrifying bacteria use the phosphorus to produce something called ATP, which is critical to support life (as we know it!).

* carbonate hardness = source of carbon

JPC


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## jaypeecee (27 Aug 2021)

John q said:


> Forgive me for not reading this thread correctly, but how did we get from cycling with chloramine to iron deficiency?


Hi @John q 

Well spotted! No doubt @NotoriousENG will enlighten us. Perhaps chloramine is in the tap water?

JPC


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## NotoriousENG (27 Aug 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @NotoriousENG
> 
> This is a common problem during cycling. Some species of nitrifying bacteria appear to struggle with nitrite. Dr Tim Hovanec identified Nitrospira moscoviensis as being a good choice for this task and incorporated it in _Dr Tim's One and Only_ and it was then adopted by Tetra in _SafeStart_. Other possibilities are that alkalinity has fallen below 4dKH* and/or phosphate has fallen much below 0.2 mg/litre. Phosphate is very important as nitrifying bacteria use the phosphorus to produce something called ATP, which is critical to support life (as we know it!).
> 
> ...


Thanks JPC! I will run a kH test to confirm but I would be surprised if has fallen below 4 dKH. My tap water comes in at around 7 kH and with frequent water changes I would be pretty surprised if the tank sucked up 4 dkH in a few days (might be wrong though). I also dose a bit less than 4 ppm of phosphate per week which I would think is enough? If the cycle keeps stalling I will go looking for the two products you mentioned. Is Tim's One and Only available in the US? I should be able to get SafeStart with out issues I would think.



John q said:


> Forgive me for not reading this thread correctly, but how did we get from cycling with chloramine to iron deficiency?


~~Magic~~~
In one of my previous posts, I mentioned that my plants were looking pale since I'm starting to learn that plants play an important part in the tanks cycle. Darrel asked for some pictures and was then kind enough to offer some advice on why they aren't looking so good. I guess you could say I pulled the ol' bait and switch and turned my cycling thread into a dosing thread..

Edit: I do apologize for the confusion in the topic of this thread, I often get sidetracked down rabbit holes with this hobby. I really appreciate all the help from everyone on both issues so far!


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## jaypeecee (27 Aug 2021)

NotoriousENG said:


> Is Tim's One and Only available in the US? I should be able to get SafeStart with out issues I would think.


Hi @NotoriousENG 

It is my understanding that _Dr Tim's One and Only_ was first launched in the US of A and it appears to be available from Amazon US. If you decide to use this or _Tetra SafeStart_, check that the bottle you receive is well within the expiry date and give it a very good shake before adding the contents to your tank. The resulting liquid should be cloudy, not clear. If you look on Dr Tim's website, he demonstrates this and explains the reason behind it. Here ya go...









						Treat Aquarium Nitrite & Ammonia | One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria
					

Eliminate New Tank Syndrom when setting up a new tank or after cleaning water & filters with DrTim's One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria




					www.drtimsaquatics.com
				




JPC


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## jaypeecee (27 Aug 2021)

Hi @NotoriousENG 

And, no, I'm not on commission!

JPC


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## dw1305 (28 Aug 2021)

Hi all, 


jaypeecee said:


> Other possibilities are that alkalinity has fallen below 4dKH*


I don't think it will have done, and microbial activity is definitely enhanced in alkaline conditions, but I'm pretty sure that low carbonate hardness is less relevant to the microbes that actually perform <"nitrification in aquarium filters"> and that there will be <"nitrite oxidising bacteria"> that occur at low carbonate hardness values.


jaypeecee said:


> And, no, I'm not on commission!





NotoriousENG said:


> Is Tim's One and Only available in the US?


We have a <"UKAPS thread where you can read Dr Hovanec's thoughts">.  I've got a lot of time for him, he is a proper scientist and has <"revised his views"> in the light of recent scientific advances. 


NotoriousENG said:


> that was my thought based on the white/pale new growth of the ludwigia


Yes, it is only really <"lack of available iron"> (Fe) that causes pale new growth.  I'd try FeDTPA, but it will take a while for green new leaves to grow.  I like Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) <"as my "canary"> because it is <"nice dark green">, will grow over a wide range of nutrient and pH levels, and has access to 400ppm of aerial CO2. 

cheers Darrel


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## NotoriousENG (30 Aug 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I don't think it will have done, and microbial activity is definitely enhanced in alkaline conditions, but I'm pretty sure that low carbonate hardness is less relevant to the microbes that actually perform /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-changes-bad-for-beneficial-bacteria.64144/page-2#post-634517']nitrification in aquarium filters[/URL]"> and that there will be /www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5152751/']nitrite oxidising bacteria[/URL]"> that occur at low carbonate hardness values.
> 
> ...


Thanks Darrel,

I found some tetra safe start locally which I've added to the tank. I will monitor nitrite through the week to see if it helps.

I also ordered some Fe DTPA. What would you suggest for dosing? I assume I should dial CSM back not sure how much since it will still be providing my non iron traces.

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## NotoriousENG (31 Aug 2021)

How quickly should the safestart work? I made sure the bottle was in date and that it was cloudy. Bacteria were added Sunday and so far no change.

Ammonia is zero and nitrite is light purple.

Almost makes me wonder if my sump is too effective at avoiding surface ripple leading to low oxygen in the filter. I do get a pretty heavy protein film in the sump. However, the tank itself has lots of surface ripple and no film so I would think it's getting enough oxygen from there.

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