# All in One -Fertilizer making- Recommendation!



## mrtank50 (28 Sep 2022)

Hello everyone...

I want your help and advice.

I don't know if I'm doing it right in all-in-one fertilizer production.

I will be glad if you tell me the mistakes I made.

First, I add them to the solution in order.

1-Fe 7% DTPA--I use 5 ml of hydrochloric acid in 100 ml of distilled water and lower the pH to 0.6-- Then I add 0.32 grams of 7% iron dtpa. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
2-Fe Gluconate 11% (E579)--I use 5 ml of hydrochloric acid in 100 ml of distilled water and lower the pH to 0.6-- Then I add 0.27 grams of 11% iron glukonat. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
3-Fe EDTA 6% (E579)--I use 5 ml of hydrochloric acid in 100 ml of distilled water and lower the pH to 0.6-- Then I add 0.24 grams of 6% iron EDTA. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
4-MnSO₄·H₂O --5 grams edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and reduces the pH to 0.8. Then I add 0.31 grams of manganese sulfate. Then I add 100 ml of this to the main solution.
5-(ZnSO₄.7H₂O) --5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and it reduces the pH to 0.8. Then I add 0.45 grams of zinc sulfate. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.
6-Boric Acid (H₃BO₃)-5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and lowers the pH to 0.8. Then I add 1.18 grams of borik asit. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.
7-Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate (CuSO₄.5H₂O)-5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and lowers the pH to 0.8. Then I add 1.21 grams of copper sulfate. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.
8-Sodium Molybdate Dihydrate (Na₂MoO₄.2H₂O)-5 grams of edta--3 grams of ascorbic acid--5 ml of hydrochloric acid is used in 500 ml of distilled water and reduces the pH to 0.8. Then I add 0.259 grams of sodium molybdete. Then I add 5 ml of this to the main solution.

*After adding the micro element additives, my pH remains 0.7.
Then I added 15 ml of hydrochloric acid and lowered the pH to 0.2.*

Next steps...
1-I add 6 grams of ammonium nitrate to my solution.
2-After the ammonium nitrate melts, I add 19 grams of potassium sulfate.
3-After the potassium sulfate melts, I add 9 grams of magnesium sulfate.
4- After the magnesium sulfate melts, I add 1.3 grams of Monopotassium Phosphate.

Is my way of doing it right, do you think I'm lowering the phs too much?
After all the elements have melted, the solution pH is in the range of 0.35-0.40.


These are the available salts I have:

1-manganese sulfate
2-zinc sulfate
3-boric acid
4-copper sulfate
5-sodium molybdete
6-EDTA
7-Ascorbic acid
8-salicylic acid
9-potassium sulfate
10-potassium nitrate
11-potassium chloride
12-potassium oxide
13-ammonium nitrate
14-ammonium sulfate
15-urea
16-mono potassium phosphate
17-fe edta 6% ---fe eddha 6% ---fe dtpa 7%--fe gluconate 11%
18-potassium sorbate
19-magnesium chloride
20-magnesium nitrate


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## Oldguy (28 Sep 2022)

mrtank50 said:


> I want your help and advice.


Surprised that your pH is so low.
Admire your 'from scratch' all in one solution.     ( a small language point your chemicals dissolve and not melt, perhaps lost in translation) 
Why make life so difficult. Most go for two stock solutions.
One for maros Potassium nitrate and Potassium hydrogen phosphate. May be Magnesium sulphate  depending on your water supply.
The other for Iron and trace elements. These can often be obtained ready made and quite cheaply as they are sold for horticultural and hydroponics use. Solufeed do a range of such products.
I am going to leave your calculations to others on the forum.

Best wishes with your endeavours.


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## mrtank50 (28 Sep 2022)

Thanks for your valuable reply. I have 9 tanks. This makes me very tired in fertilization. That's why I want to make fertilizer all in one.Surprised that your pH is so low.


Oldguy said:


> Admire your 'from scratch' all in one solution.     ( a small language point your chemicals dissolve and not melt, perhaps lost in translation)
> Why make life so difficult. Most go for two stock solutions.
> One for maros Potassium nitrate and Potassium hydrogen phosphate. May be Magnesium sulphate  depending on your water supply.
> The other for Iron and trace elements. These can often be obtained ready made and quite cheaply as they are sold for horticultural and hydroponics use. Solufeed do a range of such products.
> ...


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## Flukeworld (28 Sep 2022)

I have been wondering for long time what is the key to keep Macro and Micro from reacting with each other when creating all in one solutions?


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## Oldguy (29 Sep 2022)

Flukeworld said:


> I have been wondering for long time what is the key to keep Macro and Micro from reacting with each other when creating all in one solutions?


My guess is that it is the concentration of phosphate in the macro mix that reacts with iron and other metal salts/chelates  in the micro mix. Also if magnesium sulphate is in the macro mix then the Mg ions will start to displace Fe and other transition metals from their chelates. These solutions are fairly concentrated so that only a small volume is added to our tanks but the concentration results in chemical interaction occurring. (If very dilute they have to find each other first before interaction can occur.)
Under EI dosing macros & micros are added on alternative days to reduce co-precipitation and other such interactions. Also once added to the tank the solutions become very dilute.

For instance on water change day my new water is approx 50:50 rainwater to tap water. I add a little sodium thioslphate to remove chlorine and magnesium sulphate as  a macro fertilizer.
When the tank is full  I then add macro ferts as a solution. The following day I add micros and then its EI alternative days.
While I inject CO2 my lighting is not 'Arc Light' strength and I feel this gives me some leeway in tank management. Though retired I have many interests and at times tank management slips.

I make my own macro ferts from 'dry salts' and micros from Solufeed products. Digital balances are now very cheap and most chemicals can be sourced from the internet, especially eBay.

I hope that this is of some help.


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## mrtank50 (29 Sep 2022)

Oldguy said:


> My guess is that it is the concentration of phosphate in the macro mix that reacts with iron and other metal salts/chelates  in the micro mix. Also if magnesium sulphate is in the macro mix then the Mg ions will start to displace Fe and other transition metals from their chelates. These solutions are fairly concentrated so that only a small volume is added to our tanks but the concentration results in chemical interaction occurring. (If very dilute they have to find each other first before interaction can occur.)
> Under EI dosing macros & micros are added on alternative days to reduce co-precipitation and other such interactions. Also once added to the tank the solutions become very dilute.
> 
> For instance on water change day my new water is approx 50:50 rainwater to tap water. I add a little sodium thioslphate to remove chlorine and magnesium sulphate as  a macro fertilizer.
> ...


Dear oldgay. Thank you very much for your valuable reply. I learned a lot of information from you. I'll be more careful with magnesium sulfate.


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## Flukeworld (2 Oct 2022)

Oldguy said:


> My guess is that it is the concentration of phosphate in the macro mix that reacts with iron and other metal salts/chelates  in the micro mix. Also if magnesium sulphate is in the macro mix then the Mg ions will start to displace Fe and other transition metals from their chelates. These solutions are fairly concentrated so that only a small volume is added to our tanks but the concentration results in chemical interaction occurring. (If very dilute they have to find each other first before interaction can occur.)
> Under EI dosing macros & micros are added on alternative days to reduce co-precipitation and other such interactions. Also once added to the tank the solutions become very dilute.
> 
> For instance on water change day my new water is approx 50:50 rainwater to tap water. I add a little sodium thioslphate to remove chlorine and magnesium sulphate as  a macro fertilizer.
> ...


Thanks for the answer. I am doing completely the same with my own ferts from salts and keeping those separate as Macro and Micro mix. I was just wondering looking at commercial products sold as all-in-one solutions, which would save me 1 dosing per day if possible to mix macro and micro in one bottle.


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## Happi (2 Oct 2022)

there is nothing wrong with making all in One solution when its chelated, especially when the Iron is fully Chelated. i would recommend working with DTPA Fe for all in one solution as i find it to be much more stable, even though EDTA will work as well but its far less stable compared to the DTPA. the most common issue with all in one solution is that Iron and Phosphate being together in the same solution, but this is resolved when you use Chelated Iron such as Fe DTPA. keeping the PH of the solution between 5-6 also helps to stabilize the solution.


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## _Maq_ (2 Oct 2022)

I suggest you better quit hocus-pocusing. For safety reasons.


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## Oldguy (2 Oct 2022)

I prefer a two bottle approach, one for macros which I make up with tap water and one for micros which I make up with rainwater. The estimated Index is first and for most _estimated_. Dosing from differing bottles gives dosing flexibility and stability to the solutions, 

Very suspicious of any bottle of 'solution' where you have to shake the bottle and bits come out.

In addition the quantities of dry salts are very different. For macros some use a spoon for measurements ( I prefer to weigh which for a 5 litre batch I could use the kitchen scales, I only make a 2litre batch so  I use a lab balance. For micros I definitely use a lab balance and make up a 5litre batch which is then diluted 10:1 for use in the tank. Never had any precipitates on storage. Also difficult to over dose with copper, all chelated except molybdenum if I remember correctly. 

Each to their own, its the journey and not the destination and as such there are many paths.


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## _Maq_ (3 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> there is nothing wrong with making all in One solution when its chelated, especially when the Iron is fully Chelated.


I suspect you're wrong, very wrong.
Complex salts (=chelates) are not entirely stable. If they were, they'd never release a metal's cation for plants' uptake. Complexes work like a kind of jail which imprison metal ions for a while. While in, metal ions do not react with anything, therefore are not toxic, and cannot be taken up by plants. However, metal ions get released and recaptured repeatedly. (One source says "thousands of times per second". I don't know if it's really that fast.)
The problem with the chelating agents (chelators) is that they are not one-ion specific. There is a known scale of metal ions for which a given chelator has an affinity from highest to lowest. This affinity is then modified by some external factors, most notably pH and concentration of given metal ion in the solution.
So - the point is coming! - EDTA has normally higher affinity for Fe(III) and Fe(II) ions than for Mg(II) ion, but if the concentration of the latter is remarkably higher, EDTA is likely to bind Mg instead of Fe ion. Needless to say, any all-in-one blend contains more *macro*nutrients than *micro*nutrients. So it's likely that EDTA would get largely busy binding Mg and Ca ions and micros will be present as free ions, i.e. *un*chelated.

Disclaimer: These are mere examples. I did not attempt to quantify the probability of whichever bond would occur. Also, the affinity rankings of various chelating agents are different, as well as their stability upon various pH values. In the case of the proposed all-in-one blend, given the number of substances and widely different concentrations, the only reasonable conclusion I'm capable of is that there's not a slightest guarantee that such a mess would work as intended.

My personal suggestion: The only element which is better dosed chelated is iron. Dose chelated iron separately from anything else. Other micros can be dosed unchelated in most cases (i.e. unless your pH is higher than, say, 7.5, and bicarbonate content over 2 °dKH). It is generally better dosing micros separately and on days when you're not  dosing anything else.


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## Happi (3 Oct 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> I suspect you're wrong, very wrong.
> Complex salts (=chelates) are not entirely stable. If they were, they'd never release a metal's cation for plants' uptake. Complexes work like a kind of jail which imprison metal ions for a while. While in, metal ions do not react with anything, therefore are not toxic, and cannot be taken up by plants. However, metal ions get released and recaptured repeatedly. (One source says "thousands of times per second".)
> The problem with the chelating agents (chelators) is that they are not one-ion specific. There is a known scale of metal ions for which a given chelator has an affinity from highest to lowest. This affinity is then modified by some external factors, most notably pH and concentration of given metal ion in the solution.
> So - the point is coming! - EDTA has normally higher affinity for Fe(III) and Fe(II) ions than for Mg(II) ion, but if the concentration of the latter is remarkably higher, EDTA is likely to bind Mg instead of Fe ion. Needless to say, any all-in-one blend contains more *macro*nutrients than *micro*nutrients. So it's likely that EDTA would get largely busy binding Mg and Ca ions and micros will be present as free ions, i.e. *un*chelated.
> ...


I agree with what you are saying. but, i was mainly referring to Phosphate and Iron being together in the same solution. and Yes DTPA Fe and PO4 can be added together in the same solution without any precipitation, this is usually the main concern when someone is attempting to make an All in One solution. 

like i said i do agree with everything else you have said. Chelate will try to chelate whatever it could chelate including forming EDTA Mg or EDTA Ca if Mg or Ca were present in the solution, Solution become more prone to Precipitations at that point especially if you were to add PO4 along with Ca in the same solution. the PH also plays an important role for Precipitations 

@mrtank50 should already see some issues with Precipitations  just because of very low PH which can make several Chelate Unstable


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## _Maq_ (3 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> Yes DTPA Fe and PO4 can be added together in the same solution without any precipitation


Is it sure? You know, not all precipitates settle on the bottom. Very tiny particles may be created which virtually don't settle because of Brown's movement.


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## Happi (3 Oct 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Very tiny particles may be created which virtually don't settle because of Brown's movement.


how can we identify these Particles in the solution? which method can be used to identify them so we can be sure and probably never make All in one solution again. But how does Tropica make All in one solution that Include P, Fe and Mg together?  their solution is chelated by DTPA and HEEDTA 

just to clarify, when we are talking about "all in one" solution, we usually exclude Ca out of these, adding Ca to the solution and keeping the solution stable would be a hard task, i only achieved this while using DTPA and EDDHA but PO4 was excluded from that solution.

Tenso Cocktail for example add EDTA Ca in their Micros, if someone try to make all in one solution using Tenso Cocktail, they will certainly have some problems, especially anything that adds P or S in the same solution. 

*However, i do agree that it is best to dose Fe separately, Micros Separately, Macros Separately for the best outcome and this insure more stability vs dosing all in one solutions.  *


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## dw1305 (3 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


_Maq_ said:


> Complex salts (=chelates) are not entirely stable. If they were, they'd never release a metal's cation for plants' uptake. Complexes work like a kind of jail which imprison metal ions for a while. While in, metal ions do not react with anything, therefore are not toxic, and cannot be taken up by plants. However, metal ions get released and recaptured repeatedly. (One source says "thousands of times per second". I don't know if it's really that fast.)


I think that because the FeEDTA is photodegraded (degraded by light energy) if you keep the chelate in the dark the iron (Fe) ions will remain bound to the EDTA?
<EDTA - MOTM> says:


> _....The fully deprotonated form (all acidic hydrogens removed) of EDTA binds to the metal ion.  *The equilibrium or formation constants for most metals, especially the transition metals, are very large,* hence the reactions are shifted to the complex.  Many of the reactions are pH dependent, especially the weaker forming complexes with Ca+2 or Mg+2........_



cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (4 Oct 2022)

What scale do you use? I’ve been researching making my own micro mix, perhaps even an all in one, but most likely just keeping them separate. 

Anyhow, I’m seeing that most inexpensive scales that measure down to .001 grams end up often off up to 5 grams. Mixing in a 500ml or even 1000ml dosing  containers that we normally use, being 5 grams off isn’t ok for micros. The very least of the concerns being having your ratios off.


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## FirstClassFish (4 Oct 2022)

Another issue, and one that made me start down the journey of learning about making my own micro mix is the very fact that the inexpensive commercial micro mixes are dry ferts meant for agriculture, etc…, as has been mentioned. In the states we have CSM +B as a common one. There’s one other common one and I know of no others of this type. 

Now when trying to dose a half teaspoon out of that mix, what do you think the chances are of you getting an even mix of the elements contained in the mix? Zero. You have no idea what you’re dosing. 

That leads me to to buying a liquid micro mix for aquariums (expensive), and often not the dosages I want, or making my own.  

There are long threads on this on two other forums that are very interesting. 

I really need to just be able to measure such tiny amounts accurately and I’d be set. 

As far as making it an all-in-one? I honestly don’t know enough to say, although lots of smart people in other threads didn’t seem to see issues with the approaches they came up with. That doesn’t mean they aren’t wrong though. However, how do the big manufacturers accomplish this? Are there mixes problematic? Tropica just adds EDDHA I believe. 

DIY’ers seem to just add a couple stabilizers, something to get the ph where they need it and then a chelate or chelates. I see here it’s perhaps not that simple….but in order to keep it so, I’ll just keep macros separate for now.


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## Hufsa (4 Oct 2022)

FirstClassFish said:


> I really need to just be able to measure such tiny amounts accurately and I’d be set.


Serial dilution will be your friend in this 
The IFC allows experienced aquarists to make their own custom micros including diluted trace solutions, and does a lot of the calculating for you. 
I highly recommend it and dont think I would have been able to make my own custom micros without it, at least not without some major headache.


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## FirstClassFish (4 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> Serial dilution will be your friend in this
> The IFC allows experienced aquarists to make their own custom micros including diluted trace solutions, and does a lot of the calculating for you.
> I highly recommend it and dont think I would have been able to make my own custom micros without it, at least not without some major headache.


Thanks. I’ll have a read through. I figured I would have to do some sort of dilution strategy to pull it off with any accuracy, as I’m not wanting to spend a fortune on a scale, and even when you do, the environment needs to be perfect for it as well. I mean you need a wind shield and to warm up the scale, for crying out loud. That’s a little much for me. So if I can do it another way with a decent electronic scale in my price range I’m game! Tropica ferts are really expensive and seem even more so here lately. I think they are scaling back in the States market or having supply chain issues. If it was more reasonable I’d just buy it, but it’s not and I’m considering one high-tech tank along with the low-tech and ferts add up.  

I may need help to figure out my dilution strategy though.


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## dw1305 (4 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FirstClassFish said:


> What scale do you use? I’ve been researching making my own micro mix, perhaps even an all in one, but most likely just keeping them separate.





FirstClassFish said:


> So if I can do it another way with a decent electronic scale in my price range I’m game!


I don't ever use the lab.  balances (or micro-pipettes) for small weights and volumes, there is much too much margin for error. 

I always work with bigger weights and volumes to make up a stock solution and then use serial dilution to dilute the solutions to their end mg / L (ppm) values.

It is honestly a lot more accurate, and does away with the need for 4 place balances etc.

cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (4 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I don't ever use the lab.  balances (or micro-pipettes) for small weights and volumes, there is much too much margin for error.
> ...


So essentially we just potentially end up with some waste by having to use larger amounts that we may not be able to utilize before expiration. That’s the only downside I guess?

I guess I’ll just have to get more tanks then.


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## Hufsa (4 Oct 2022)

FirstClassFish said:


> So essentially we just potentially end up with some waste by having to use larger amounts that we may not be able to utilize before expiration. That’s the only downside I guess?
> 
> I guess I’ll just have to get more tanks then.


You dont have to waste the stock solutions, make sure to write down what concentration they contain, and then store them in the fridge. They will last a long time provided you put them in clean containers in the first place.


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## dw1305 (4 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FirstClassFish said:


> So essentially we just potentially end up with some waste by having to use larger amounts that we may not be able to utilize before expiration. That’s the only downside I guess?





Hufsa said:


> You dont have to waste the stock solutions, make sure to write down what concentration they contain, and then store them in the fridge. They will last a long time provided you put them in clean containers in the first place.


What @Hufsa says, you can potentially keep the stock solutions for all of eternity, as long as they are in stoppered containers. 

cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I don't ever use the lab.  balances (or micro-pipettes) for small weights and volumes, there is much too much margin for error.
> ...


What would you recommend I use for measuring the micros with the least amount of serial dilution involved. 

I was thinking a .001 scale would be good enough as if you work with them at higher weights they are pretty accurate. So I could start with higher amounts. 

You mention not using a scale at all though? How do you go about it?

I’m looking at what to buy for measuring, mixing and for storage. Right now I have the 500ml plastic dosing bottles that you squeeze the desired amount into the top chamber. I’m wondering if 1000ml will be better?….you also mentioned having a stopper, so I didn’t know if you meant rubber or what so I would also be looking at not only dosage containers, but storage ones. Wondering if I should get bronze colored plastic or bottles as well. 

Thanks


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## dw1305 (12 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FirstClassFish said:


> What would you recommend I use for measuring the micros with the least amount of serial dilution involved.


I just never work with very small weights or very small volumes. For dilution factors I tend to keep in factors of ten (orders of magnitude), like below.


dw1305 said:


> ...... Even in the lab where we've got 4 place balances etc, when I'm making solutions with ordinary reagents, I tend to use serial dilution for solutions of low molarity. So rather than weighing out 0.05g and making up a 1000cm3 with deionised water, I'll weight out 5g, make it up to a litre, and then take 10cm3 of that solution and make that up to a litre. It sounds a silly way to do it, but it is actually more accurate for me.........


Have a look at <"How do I calculate fertiliser dosage based on weight percentage?"> for the calculation for a specific example.

cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just never work with very small weights or very small volumes. For dilution factors I tend to keep in factors of ten (orders of magnitude), like below.
> 
> ...


This is along the lines of what I was thinking, but we still have to weigh down to at least the gram level. Most of what I’m reading states that the cheap .001 scales are really only accurate to 1-2 grams….so I guess those would be ok enough for this purpose. I certainly wouldn’t trust them to measure out the amount of nickel compound needed for a micro solution for 500 ml of water. I think doing those kinds of weights, even with a better scale, is pretty tough when you have drafts, temp fluctuations, etc….

What kind of bottle and stopper would I need for storage? 

I’d like to do this, but in the end I don’t know if it might just be better to pay up for a trace mix from Tropica. We don’t have as good of choices for cheap stuff here as the UK seems too like TNC. 

I can do the NPK and I already have Mg, FeDTPA and calcium. I figured I might as well try the grace too. I don’t have a ton of tanks and will probably only ever have one high tech, if that, so I guess the cost for micros bought commercially isn’t too bad.


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## dw1305 (12 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FirstClassFish said:


> Most of what I’m reading states that the cheap .001 scales are really only accurate to 1-2 grams….so I guess those would be ok enough for this purpose. I certainly wouldn’t trust them to measure out the amount of nickel compound needed for a micro solution for 500 ml of water. I think doing those kinds of weights, even with a better scale, is pretty tough when you have drafts, temp fluctuations, etc….


Those are the main issues. 


FirstClassFish said:


> What kind of bottle and stopper would I need for storage?


I use stoppered glass reagent bottles <"Clear Glass Reagent Bottle: 500ml - Pack of 10">, but mainly because we have hundreds of them in the lab.  

Any robust leak-proof inert plastic (HDPE) container, with a screw lid, <"RS PRO 500ml PP Wide Neck Storage Bottle | RS"> would do.  


FirstClassFish said:


> I’d like to do this, but in the end I don’t know if it might just be better to pay up for a trace mix from Tropica


Any trace mix you could get would do. <"Yara or Solufeed sell one"> @Happi may be able to advise you?

cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Those are the main issues.
> 
> ...


Thanks and thanks for the links. You are the master of that. I’ve learned a lot from them over the years lurking, so thanks much. 

Would a scale like that be good enough for serial dilution? I’m hoping it may also be good enough for medicine dosing. I can’t afford the prepackaged commercial stuff so am buying a few meds in relative bulk. 

I don’t know how to start this serial dilution process. I’m a bit confused as you say you don’t use scales, but then mentioned one. We need to start somewhere, no?

As for the trace mixes, I’m in the US. We have a couple dry types, but when you are only taking such a small amount out of a pound of mix you have no idea what percentage of each fert you’re actually getting. That led to a few huge threads about recipes for micros on other forums, and then people tweaked them to be more appropriate for aquarium use, less copper, adding nickel, more iron, chelates, etc…

So the dry trace mixes have issues, which leaves expensive premixed. It seems in the UK you guys have two solid and inexpensive liquid mixes to use.


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

For the medicine, perhaps some tiny measuring spoons to get to the mg level?


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## GHNelson (12 Oct 2022)

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator
		



*Teaspoon quantities*I have calculated the amount of each chemical by weighing the                amount using a standard teaspoon (5ml) which is available from                most kitchen stores. Depending on where you obtain your                chemicals from you may get slightly different weights. I get all                mine from The Nutrient Company. Here are the weights I have used for each chemical using one teaspoon:



Potassium Nitrate6.0gPotassium Phosphate6.6gPotassium Sulphate5.1gMagnesium Sulphate heptahydrate5.1gCalcium Sulphate dihydrate4.1gCalcium Chloride anhydrous3.5g

_(nb.The tablespoon amount is calculated by multiplying the teaspoon amount by 3) _  *Solubility's In Water*There are limits on how much of a salt can be dissolved in water. As this limit is reached it becomes increasingly difficult to dissolve more. If you are experiencing difficulties  in dissolving any of the salts then try doubling the amount of water it is dissolved in. Below are the maximum solubility's of the various chemicals used in the calculator.



Potassium Nitrate36g per 100mlPotassium Phosphate22g per 100mlPotassium Sulphate11.1g per 100mlMagnesium Sulphate heptahydrate25.5g per 100mlCalcium Sulphate dihydrate0.24g per 100mlCalcium Chloride anhydrous74g per 100ml


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

GHNelson said:


> James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is very cool. I didn’t see that on his site as I was focused on the trace mixes…those are macros, so while good to know for my macros, I’m talking about micros.


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## GHNelson (12 Oct 2022)

Off the top of my head....I think Micro mix is about 6 grams...... I teaspoon!!


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## dw1305 (12 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


FirstClassFish said:


> I’m a bit confused as you say you don’t use scales, but then mentioned one.


Yes, you need scales, but you can just use an <"ordinary electronic top balance"> (<"Kitchen scales">), rather than much more accurate (and expensive) 3 or 4 place lab. grade balances.

Modern electronic  balances are all really good, even the cheap ones.

cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Yes, you need scales, but you can just use an <"ordinary electronic top balance"> (<"Kitchen scales">), rather than much more accurate (and expensive) 3 or 4 place lab. grade balances.
> 
> ...


Well, even the .001 gram ones are like 20 bucks…

I still don’t know how to get from here to there. I’ll work on it.


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## FirstClassFish (12 Oct 2022)

GHNelson said:


> Off the top of my head....I think Micro mix is about 6 grams...... I teaspoon!!


Yeah, but a normal dose may be less than that. My smallest measuring spoon is 1/64. I’ve seen some smaller ones on Amazon. Are you suggesting I just assume an average weight for all the compounds and then scale down as far as I can reasonably with a tiny measuring spoon and perhaps a scale to see how close I can get, and then from there do the serial dilution?


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## GHNelson (13 Oct 2022)

Hi 
Just make up 250ml of stock solution of Micro Fertilizer!
The vessel weights 3g.
That's about 1 level teaspoon of Micro/Trace powder per 250ml of water.




hoggie


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## Happi (13 Oct 2022)

@FirstClassFish  sorry if I missed this but which gram scale are you going to be using? Which chemicals you have or going to buy for your micros? 

Here is an example of how I make solution.


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## Oldguy (13 Oct 2022)

FirstClassFish said:


> Well, even the .001 gram ones are like 20 bucks…


No need for that accuracy, go for a digital balance that is good for 0.1gm or at most 0.01g. Typically they go from zero to 200g or 250g. Mine cost me about £10 from ebay and has a tare option.

I typically weigh between 5 and 80g net. The plastic beaker I weigh into is about 35g, hence 115g gross.

As @dw1305 has said, serial dilution is the way to go. You can buy measuring cylinders but empty clean bottles are free.

For instance 1g in a quart, shake and brim a pint bottle. Eempty this pint into a second quart bottle and brim , you now have 0.5g in the second quart bottle and so on.

If possible get your head round metric units, grammes and litres. 1mg is very small and in a litre is 1 part per million (1ppm). For instance 1US gal is a little shy of 4litres but lets say its good enough.
1g in a gal bottle is 1g in 4litres is 0.25 g in a litre ie 250mg in a litre or 250ppm. Pour some of  that solution into a pint bottle, still 250ppm, Then pour that pint into a quart bottle and make up the to the brim with water, you now have a 125ppm solution.

Remember your stock solutions are going to many grammes per litre because you will be adding a small volume of stock solution to a large volume tank/aquarium water.

For instance my stock macro ferts are 80g pot nitrate, 8g pot dihydrgen phosphate and 2g pot sulphate. Dissolve and make up to 2litres (empty drinks bottle). Add 100ml to my tank on alternate days.

Trace/ micro ferts a bit more involved: 8.5g of '13FeEDTA' and 11.0g of 'TEMag'. [These are the commercial trace mixes I went for about 20yrs ago and still have plenty left, in those day it was sold in large bags]. Dissolve in water and make up to 5litres of Stock Solution A. Then 500ml of Stock Solution A and make up to 5litres of Stock Solution B.
10ml of Stock Solution B per UK gal yields: 0.1ppm of Fe, 0.01ppm B,. 0.01ppm Mn, 0.005ppm Cu and so the list goes on and on.
The point is that you can get tiny amounts of substances by weighing out small amounts 19.5gms (approx 28g to the oz for comparison.)

Volume of my tank, guestimated, quantities of ferts that I really add, guestimated. I have given myself wriggle room with my dilutions. Watch the critters and watch the plants. Its an Estimated Index.

I hope that this has been of some use. (Its all about ratios and a bit a High School chemistry)


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## MichaelJ (14 Oct 2022)

Oldguy said:


> Volume of my tank, guestimated, quantities of ferts that I really add, guestimated. I have given myself wriggle room with my dilutions. Watch the critters and watch the plants. Its an Estimated Index.


Hi @Oldguy  I agree. There is a saying - I am paraphrasing as I don't remember the exact wording - that goes something like this: _Do not waste your time trying to be more  precise than the underlying uncertainties. 
_


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## dw1305 (14 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


MichaelJ said:


> Do not waste your time trying to be more precise than the underlying uncertainties.


Exactly that, it is the <"_coffee, not the froth_"> argument. You can apply it to <"biological filtration">, <"light spectra"> and <"fertilisers"> etc.

If weighing small amount is problematic? Don't do it, find a solution that <"negates that as a necessity">.  Serial dilution does away with the requirement for accurate weighing, allows you to use kitchen scales and vastly reduces the margin for error, it is just a <"_win win scenario_">.


Oldguy said:


> No need for that accuracy, go for a digital balance that is good for 0.1gm or at most 0.01g. Typically they go from zero to 200g or 250g. Mine cost me about £10 from ebay and has a tare option.


Simple, and good advice.  It is <"just a KISS solution">, no weighing of very small weights, or pipetting of very small volumes, and <"your problem goes away">.


Oldguy said:


> Trace/ micro ferts a bit more involved: 8.5g of '13FeEDTA' and 11.0g of 'TEMag'. [These are the commercial trace mixes I went for about 20yrs ago and still have plenty left, in those day it was sold in large bags]. Dissolve in water and make up to 5litres of Stock Solution A. Then 500ml of Stock Solution A and make up to 5litres of Stock Solution B.
> 10ml of Stock Solution B per UK gal yields: 0.1ppm of Fe, 0.01ppm B,. 0.01ppm Mn, 0.005ppm Cu and so the list goes on and on.
> The point is that you can get tiny amounts of substances by weighing out small amounts 19.5gms (approx 28g to the oz for comparison.)
> 
> Volume of my tank, guestimated, quantities of ferts that I really add, guestimated. I have given myself wriggle room with my dilutions. Watch the critters and watch the plants. Its an Estimated Index.


A new one for the UKAPS lexicon  of dosing methods, the "*Guesstimated Index*".  I'm already a <"committed convert">.

cheers Darrel


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## FirstClassFish (14 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> @FirstClassFish  sorry if I missed this but which gram scale are you going to be using? Which chemicals you have or going to buy for your micros?
> 
> Here is an example of how I make solution.


No need to apologize!
I haven’t decided on where to buy and what exactly to buy. I have the one store that people were commonly using bookmarked somewhere. Any stores and/or eBay shops you you recommend to get everything? Particular forms of chemicals that are better than others?

I’m gonna read your guide throughly. 

Thanks!


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## FirstClassFish (14 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> @FirstClassFish  sorry if I missed this but which gram scale are you going to be using? Which chemicals you have or going to buy for your micros?
> 
> Here is an example of how I make solution.


Oh…the scale. I was looking at the American Weight Scales Gemini 20 or similar. It only goes up to 20 grams though. 

Perhaps like @Oldguy  was saying I could go to a .1 scale….but if the .001 scales are only accurate to 2-3 grams than moving up would be less accurate. I realize that’s fine for the method he outlays, but I want to use something for meds too…..so I haven’t decided. Perhaps a couple scales in the end. 

What scale do you use? There is a smart weigh that looks exactly like the AWS…AWS has a 10 year warranty and perhaps better QC on what is most assuredly the same scale. There are quite a few that have several brandings, like so many items nowadays of course.


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## FirstClassFish (14 Oct 2022)

Oldguy said:


> No need for that accuracy, go for a digital balance that is good for 0.1gm or at most 0.01g. Typically they go from zero to 200g or 250g. Mine cost me about £10 from ebay and has a tare option.
> 
> I typically weigh between 5 and 80g net. The plastic beaker I weigh into is about 35g, hence 115g gross.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Thanks so much for taking your time to do that. It’s truly appreciated….and yes the metric system is fine, makes much more sense to me. 

I will need to read it over more thoroughly, but I can tell it’s going to help me immensely!


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## FirstClassFish (14 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Exactly that, it is the <"_coffee, not the froth_"> argument. You can apply it to <"biological filtration">, <"light spectra"> and <"fertilisers"> etc.
> 
> ...


I’m all for trying the serial dilution, it’s just that up until now I didn’t quite know how to go about it.


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## dw1305 (14 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FirstClassFish said:


> and yes the metric system is fine, makes much more sense to me.


Slightly off-topic, but we may have  <"thread for you">. We've also just  had a <"very interesting questionnaire">, produced by the UK Government. 


> ....... The Government has published its “Choice on units of measurement: markings and sales” consultation document about their plans to remove the requirement for traders to show the metric equivalent alongside imperial units.
> 
> The document bangs the drum for the imperial system while saying nothing about the merits of the metric system. You would expect a Government document to be more balanced than this ...........



cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (14 Oct 2022)

I tend to be ambidextrous in the scale/measurements that I use. Land area acres,  garden feet. Big volumes Imp gals. Small volumes ml. ( A litre is a strange unit: the volume of 1kg of water at 4C, based on the 1795 definition of the gramme.) The term decimeter cubed does not role off the tongue and the cubic metre is huge. I also like the eVolt and the Angstom but I also like powers of ten in groups of three. Never got on with ergs and slugs. Still use the foot-pound from time to time especially if I am standing on a long breaker bar. Old cars can be sods.

Perhaps its my age, must find Matron, time for my meds. and I need a lie down.


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## MichaelJ (14 Oct 2022)

Oldguy said:


> ( A litre is a strange unit: the volume of 1kg of water at 4C, based on the 1795 definition of the gramme.)


A liter is now defined against the meter as 1,000 cubic centimeters. And the meter is now defined in terms of the speed of light in a vacuum _c.  _The kilogram is defined in terms of Planck's constant _h_. It used to be based on metal cylinders and sticks kept in Paris at a certain temperature etc. 

I personally think we should go back to measuring weight in _todes. _

Cheers,
Michael


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## Oldguy (15 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> A liter is now defined against the meter as 1,000 cubic centimeters.


I know the modern redefinition but is not the litre redundant, its a cubic decimetre,  much more logical for dimensional analysis and fits the SI unit of length which is a metre. (The yard could be a metre but the company that made then doesn't make them any longer.)
To be serious some things are made in metric sizes and should be metric and those made in imperial should be imperial.


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## Happi (15 Oct 2022)

FirstClassFish said:


> Oh…the scale. I was looking at the American Weight Scales Gemini 20 or similar. It only goes up to 20 grams though.
> 
> Perhaps like @Oldguy  was saying I could go to a .1 scale….but if the .001 scales are only accurate to 2-3 grams than moving up would be less accurate. I realize that’s fine for the method he outlays, but I want to use something for meds too…..so I haven’t decided. Perhaps a couple scales in the end.
> 
> What scale do you use? There is a smart weigh that looks exactly like the AWS…AWS has a 10 year warranty and perhaps better QC on what is most assuredly the same scale. There are quite a few that have several brandings, like so many items nowadays of course.


Gram scale 
Dry chemicals from this or this one
I would recommend playing with both chelated and non chelated, it's up to you which ever you want to play with. If you don't see some of the needed chemicals, try looking it up on Amazon or ebay. 

Ammonium Nitrate if you ever decided to buy it.


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## FirstClassFish (15 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> Gram scale
> Dry chemicals from this or this one
> I would recommend playing with both chelated and non chelated, it's up to you which ever you want to play with. If you don't see some of the needed chemicals, try looking it up on Amazon or ebay.
> 
> Ammonium Nitrate if you ever decided to buy it.


Thanks so much. Scale accurate for you when your getting down to .1 and .5 for some of those micros?


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## Happi (15 Oct 2022)

FirstClassFish said:


> Thanks so much. Scale accurate for you when your getting down to .1 and .5 for some of those micros?


I usually avoid going low as 0.1, 0.5 gram should be fine but even with that, the accuracy is jeopardized. 

The best approach would be to make separate serial solution and take some ml from that solution to make your final solution. For Fe and Mn you can skip this step and add it directly to the final solution. 

I use simple plastic bottle such as this one below to store my solution after cleaning them good. 





For perserving the solution, I would recommend using Sodium Benzoate around 0.25 gram into 500 ml solution. Its on one of those links that I have provided. Use about 5 ml white vinegar to make the solution acidic, ph between 5-6 is preferred. 

Let me know if you need further assistance with anything.


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## Happi (15 Oct 2022)

Also, for all in one solution, I highly recommend using DTPA Fe if "AIO" is your ultimate goal. But, i also suggest making a separate solution for Micro, Fe, Macros, PO4 and test them on your tank to see how well they are working.


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## MichaelJ (15 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> View attachment 195755



Ah! Smart Water! So THAT'S your secret!


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## Happi (15 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> Ah! Smart Water! So THAT'S your secret!


Just the smart bottle for storage, still gotta use that Distilled water for solution.


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## KirstyF (15 Oct 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> I personally think we should go back to measuring weight in _todes. _





Oldguy said:


> Never got on with ergs and slugs.



So I think I got it - 10 slugs to a frog and 5 frogs to a tode - Still not sure what an erg is!! 🤔😂


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## MichaelJ (15 Oct 2022)

KirstyF said:


> So I think I got it - 10 slugs to a frog and 5 frogs to a tode


HAHA! Good one!  


KirstyF said:


> - Still not sure what an erg is!! 🤔😂


An erg is a measure of energy (work).  1 erg is 0.0000001 joule.  A typical human burns around 8000 kilo joule per day...  or 80000000000000 ergs 

Cheers,
Michael


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## FirstClassFish (16 Oct 2022)

Happi said:


> I usually avoid going low as 0.1, 0.5 gram should be fine but even with that, the accuracy is jeopardized.
> 
> The best approach would be to make separate serial solution and take some ml from that solution to make your final solution. For Fe and Mn you can skip this step and add it directly to the final solution.
> 
> ...


So what accuracy do you feel you can trust the scale down to? From what I was reading I thought you could end up too far off if you tried to go down to .001. 

You gave an excellent source for ferts in that second link. They’re not too expensive and plenty to last forever. Even if I have to go up quite a bit for minimum measurements the waste would still be very cheap. Although, if I have to go up to 1 gram that is quite a lot of diluting?….some traces are dosed out to .0001 

Personally I’m not storing 5 years worth of trace mix in my fridge so I don’t have to toss some. 

As for the medicine, I guess I’d have to crunch some numbers and see how much waste would cost me. I’m also concerned how to dispose of the waste from both the ferts and medicines properly. 

Medicine is also much more critical to get the dosing right, obviously. Serial dilution is great, but I may not be understanding everything if it’s a cure for having to start at very small weights in all cases. 

I know on selectaqautics, Greg Sage’s site, he sells Levamisole with a scoop for dosing. So I’m assuming, since he’s a bright guy, he knows the exact weight per volume of the compound he’s selling.  The spoon should get you close enough then. 

I’m wondering if I could easily find the weight per volume measurement of some of the meds I’m looking at. I found some that are 99.9 % pure or more. That makes it easier to get a proper weight and not have to try to account for whatever fillers are in compounds that are 22% active ingredient, like the versions sold for dogs and cats and even livestock often are. People do dose that stuff successfully though, so I dunno….it’s a little disconcerting that so many say dose .1 gram per 10 gallons etc… without saying they have accounted for the active ingredient amounts or mentioning to make sure people following their advice only follow their measurements if using the same compound strength.


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## FirstClassFish (16 Oct 2022)

We also can’t use serial dilution if we wanted to make packets of a set powered mix for people to be able to dump into a standard 500ml dosing bottle. That is part of what I wanted to create and pass on at my club, etc…


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## Oldguy (17 Oct 2022)

KirstyF said:


> So I think I got it - 10 slugs to a frog and 5 frogs to a tode - Still not sure what an erg is!!


About right. Erg came from the centimetre, gramme. second system.  It was about the size of a match stick dropped from a height of one centimetre, a very small unit of energy. It was replaced by the 'Rationalized MKS system', Kg, metre, second, much bigger unit of energy. This was replaced by SI units which we still have, though definitions of some of its  fundamental units have changed. A slug is defined as the mass that is accelerated by 1 ft/s2 when a net force of one pound (lbf) is exerted on it.  It was used by UK Engineers but was I think short lived.**


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## dw1305 (17 Oct 2022)

Hi all, 


FirstClassFish said:


> We also can’t use serial dilution if we wanted to make packets of a set powered mix for people to be able to dump into a standard 500ml dosing bottle.


That is true. In that particular case I'd definitely use a <"commercial micro-element mix">.  Thanks to @Zeus. and <"the IFC"> for the image. 





cheers Darrel


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## Yugang (17 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


>



OK, perhaps too much off tangent, and don't intend to derail the thread, but I feel like making the point on UKAPS even so. Not mentioning recent news would be a shame IMHO.

We invented the magnificent tool of spreadsheets in 1979. Glory to progress and our brilliant minds. Since the 1970's wildlife populations plummeted by 69%. A humbling thought.


			https://livingplanet.panda.org/
		


from the report:
FRESHWATER POPULATIONS HIT THE HARDEST​*Monitored freshwater populations have seen an alarming decline of 83% since 1970*, more than any other species groups. Habitat loss and barriers to migration routes account for around half the threats to these populations.


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## Hanuman (17 Oct 2022)

mrtank50 said:


> Hello everyone...
> 
> I want your help and advice.
> 
> ...


Ok so I have read the thread and at no point did I see anyone cautioning you about using strong acids and in such quantities (maybe I missed a post?) I am bewildered!! 😳 So I will do this like I was once warned by @dw1305. What you are doing is dangerous and there is no need to use these acids to make ferts unless you are producing them at a commercial/industrial level. You can use much safer alternatives like ascorbic acid, vinegar or other mild acids. Plus you keep adding and adding acid again and again, not sure why. Or maybe I didn't understand something. The process seems convoluted. The point being that the more you add the more you increase the chances of some accident happening. Unless you are a chemist, which I don't think you are, else you wouldn't be posting here, I suggest you ditch the hydrochloric acid galore and use safer products. 

There is also one thing I didn't see mention and that it is highly advisable that you use a chelated Fe that is 11% or above. Reason being that the lower the Fe%, the more chelating agent you have thus increasing your PH and potentially initiating a chemical reaction with phosphate and/or other elements. I wouldn't recommend anything below 10%. Now considering that you have brought the PH down to an astounding 0.2PH and you keep adding acid like there is no tomorrow, my comment above is irrelevant. It is relevant though if you use a mild acid.

So you only need to acidify the water once and it only needs to go to around PH 2 max. PH 3 is fine. You can reach that with all mild acids.

Final recommendation, you can use the IFC calculator. It explains everything and how you need to mix the compounds and in which order.


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