# Whats this then?



## Aqua sobriquet (17 Jul 2019)

https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/dennerle---carbo-elixier-bio-nano-100ml-2510-p.asp

It’s says it’s based on all natural ingredients? So maybe not *glutaraldehyde.*


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## dw1305 (17 Jul 2019)

Hi all,





Aqua sobriquet said:


> https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/dennerle---carbo-elixier-bio-nano-100ml-2510-p.asp
> 
> It’s says it’s based on all natural ingredients? So maybe not *glutaraldehyde.*


Citric acid based.

"_Dennerle - CARBO ELIXIER BIO Nano 100ml - Our Price: £5.99._"

It will "work", but at £60 a litre definitely a contender in the <"World's most expensive water"> competition as well.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (17 Jul 2019)

Lots of people reported adding few ml Vinegar also has positive effect.. Obviously, lowering Ph releasing CO² from the carbonates nutralizing the acid.  And maybe, dunno how well this works in minor changes, acidity seems to improve cation exchange as well. Thus any acids used with common sense has positive effects.. Phosphoric acids are used in horticultur during blooming periods since it accelerates bllooming since it adds also a bit of P extra..

But be carefull not to over do and create a pH crash..


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## Aqua sobriquet (17 Jul 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Citric acid based.
> 
> "_Dennerle - CARBO ELIXIER BIO Nano 100ml - Our Price: £5.99._"
> 
> ...



Wish we had the formula, Citric Acid is cheap enough.


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## zozo (17 Jul 2019)

Aqua sobriquet said:


> Wish we had the formula, Citric Acid is cheap enough.



It's based on the Citric Acid cycle that occurs in a plant when metabolising. It is not said that Citric Acid is actualy in the formula.. But if one that bought and uses it, dipping a Ph meter in it could reveal if its acidic or not.. I have no clue. 

http://biopublisher.ca/index.php/gab/article/html/3415/


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## jaypeecee (19 May 2020)

Hi Folks,

Do we really think this product is a complete no-no? Even if it turns out to be the world's most expensive water, is it worth putting it to the test? Apart from checking its pH, are there any other quick checks that could be done on this? According to Dennerle, "_CarboElixier BIO_ is not a replacement for a complete fertiliser". But, Dennerle does say that it contains iron, manganese and potassium. Are there any organic compounds (i.e. sources of carbon) that aquatic plants can absorb in sufficient quantity to sustain them - other than glutaraldehyde? And, would this be through the leaves, roots or both?

I'm asking because I'd be happy to buy a 250ml bottle of this magic potion and try it with some very small Java Fern and Congo Fern plants that I have in a 5 litre* tank.

* Yes, it really is just five litres!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (19 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Are there any organic compounds (i.e. sources of carbon) that aquatic plants can absorb in sufficient quantity to sustain them - other than glutaraldehyde?



Hi Folks,

I've just realized that we're not only talking organic compounds. Inorganic compounds/ions could also supply carbon and they do, e.g. bicarbonate (HCO3-).

JPC


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## jaypeecee (20 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> I've just realized that we're not only talking organic compounds. Inorganic compounds/ions could also supply carbon and they do, e.g. bicarbonate (HCO3-).



Hi Folks,

In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally? I haven't a clue but, perhaps @ceg4048/@zozo/@alto/@dw1305/@Zeus. can help out here?

*Dissolved Inorganic Carbon

JPC


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## jaypeecee (20 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally? I haven't a clue but, perhaps @ceg4048/@zozo/@alto/@dw1305/@Zeus. can help out here?
> 
> *Dissolved Inorganic Carbon



Hi Folks,

I had a look at Diana Walstad's book* and she gives this reference:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304377091900376

Unfortunately, anything more than the Abstract comes with a price tag!

* _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_

JPC


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## X3NiTH (20 May 2020)

I’ll hazard a guess that it’s a brown liquid and if it is then likely to be Humic and Fulvic acids which are pretty good chelating long carbon chain molecules most easily uptaken by plants, the extra elements may because they are present in the source material for this concoction and analysis shows it’s presence or that a powdered version is reconstituted in water that contains these elements possibly by direct addition and are chelated in the final mixture. The most basic source would be unrefined Leonardite and because Iron and Manganese are easily mineralised in the environment this may explain its content.


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## jaypeecee (20 May 2020)

X3NiTH said:


> I’ll hazard a guess that it’s a brown liquid and if it is then likely to be Humic and Fulvic acids which are pretty good chelating long carbon chain molecules most easily uptaken by plants...



Hi @X3NiTH 

I wonder if this would enable dissolved organics (DOCs) to be made available to plants? Wouldn't that be good or am I overlooking something? (Answer: probably!). The plants would benefit, the fish would probably benefit and algae/cyano may be depleted of some nutrients. Sounds too good to be true (says me just pinching myself to make sure I'm awake and not just dreaming). 🤔

JPC


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## Witcher (20 May 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Citric acid based



I think you may be quite close, from Dennerle website:
_"With potassium, iron, manganese and boron" _

So we may have mixture of Potassium citrate K3C6H5O7, Iron citrate C6H5FeO7, Manganese citrate C6H6MnO7 and Boron citrate C6H5BO7. Or potentially gluconate form of each of those ingredients.


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## alto (20 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally? I haven't a clue but, perhaps @ceg4048/@zozo/@alto/@dw1305/@Zeus. can help out here?
> 
> ...


Thank Darrel for this summary article 
(of course I can’t recall in which thread he provided the link  )

*Underwater photosynthesis of submerged plants – recent advances and methods*
Ole Pedersen1,2,3*, Timothy D. Colmer3 and Kaj Sand-Jensen1

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2013.00140/full


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## jaypeecee (20 May 2020)

alto said:


> Thank Darrel for this summary article...



Many thanks, @alto and @dw1305.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (20 May 2020)

zozo said:


> http://biopublisher.ca/index.php/gab/article/html/3415/



Hi @zozo 

I tried to follow the link above but I got a 'Runtime Error'. Any suggestions? Has a bit got chopped off the end of the URL?

TIA.

JPC


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## zozo (21 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @zozo
> 
> I tried to follow the link above but I got a 'Runtime Error'. Any suggestions? Has a bit got chopped off the end of the URL?
> 
> ...



If you google Citric Acid Cycle in plants you find a lot of articles and videos on it.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...hUKEwiqt5XMpMTpAhXL16QKHfLPBwwQ4dUDCAY&uact=5



> also known as the Krebs cycle or tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle, is a series of chemical reactions in the cell that breaks down food molecules into carbon dioxide, water, and energy. In plants and animals (eukaryotes), these reactions take place in the matrix of the mitochondria of the cell as part of cellular respiration.



I don't know enough about this complex if this cycle can be enhanced by adding citric acid only. All tho it might be, quite a lot of people add acid (Vinegar) to their planted tanks and report enhanced plant growth.  Adding acid lowers the pH and frees up carbons and other elements in the water column for plants to use. If plants use the acid also for other means I have no clue about...


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## dw1305 (21 May 2020)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> In fact, at pH = 6.5, the DIC* mix of CO2 and HCO3- is approx. 50:50. Do plants absorb each of these equally?


My guess would be that the majority of them are using  the CO2 until you get well above pH7.  

The reason is back to the <"T(D)IC curves">, the cumulative amount of DIC is  set by the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, and once you have a any carbonate buffering the pH rises to ~pH8, and all your DIC is as HCO3- ions. This is going to be the normal state for a lot of the world's aquatic vegetation. 

This one should be available to everyone <"Ecological imperatives for aquatic CO2-concentrating mechanisms"> and covers this area pretty exhaustively. There is scientific research on _Ottelia alismoides, _which shows that it has multiple methods of DIC acquisition (<"Jack of all trades – C4 photosynthesis, CAM and HCO3− use in the same tissue">). 

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (21 May 2020)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> I don't know enough about this complex if this cycle can be enhanced by adding citric acid only.


We have a thread <"Citric Acid - Source...">, have  a look at Clive's  (@ceg4048) comments.

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (21 May 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, We have a thread <"Citric Acid - Source...">, have  a look at Clive's  (@ceg4048) comments.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel, i didn't know this thread excisted, it's already 11 years old. Anyway nice read...

But what @ceg4048 explains kinda confirms what i already suspected and didn't know for sure.


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## jaypeecee (21 May 2020)

dw1305 said:


> My guess would be that the majority of them are using the CO2 until you get well above pH7.



Hi @dw1305 

Sorry, Darrel, I don't think i made myself clear.

What I was trying to ask was this - at pH = 6.5, would a given plant absorb CO2 and HCO3- equally as this mix is roughly 50:50? If not, what is the most efficient way of getting carbon into this plant? Let's call it Plant X for convenience. And, if Plant X cannot absorb carbon efficiently, is the simplest answer to replace it with a different plant that prefers pH less than 7.0 and soft water? In short, do we just need to match plants to whatever water parameters we have in our tanks? So, I guess this would be pH, KH and GH.

JPC


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## dw1305 (21 May 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> What I was trying to ask was this - at pH = 6.5, would a given plant absorb CO2 and HCO3- equally as this mix is roughly 50:50?


Not all plants can use HCO3-, so those ones will only be able to assimilate CO2 below pH7.





jaypeecee said:


> If not, what is the most efficient way of getting carbon into this plant?


There is an energetic penalty to using HCO3-, with plants that naturally grow in alkaline water they have to able to use HCO3-, because they never get DIC in any other form.





jaypeecee said:


> And, if Plant X cannot absorb carbon efficiently, is the simplest answer to replace it with a different plant that prefers pH less than 7.0 and soft water?


I think that most plants don't really care, some definitely grow best at low dKH, and others (like _Vallisneria_) don't do well in soft water (low dGH/dKH), but I don't know the exact mechanism.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (21 May 2020)

Hi @dw1305

Many thanks, Darrel. I think it's slowly sinking in. I just dipped into _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ and I note that Diana Walstad makes the statement that "About half of the aquatic plants that have been tested can use bicarbonates" and she references:

Madsen TV and Sand-Jensen K. 1991. Photosynthetic carbon assimilation in aquatic macrophytes. Aquat. Bot. 41: 5-40

Here is the Abstract:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304377091900376

The above reference rings a bell. Perhaps I mentioned it elsewhere.

JPC


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## dw1305 (21 May 2020)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> I just dipped into _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ and I note that Diana Walstad makes the statement that "About half of the aquatic plants that have been tested can use bicarbonates" and she references........


@jaypeecee  can you access? 





dw1305 said:


> This one should be available to everyone <"Ecological imperatives for aquatic CO2-concentrating mechanisms"> and covers this area pretty exhaustively.


cheers Darrel


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## hypnogogia (21 May 2020)

dw1305 said:


> I think that most plants don't really care, some definitely grow best at low dKH, and others (like _Vallisneria_) don't do well in soft water (low dGH/dKH), but I don't know the exact mechanism.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hmmm.  I had to regularly remove Vallis from threat of taking over my tank, and I have a Gh of 7 and Kh of 4.5.  I found Vallis grows best when you don’t do too many water changes.


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## jaypeecee (21 May 2020)

dw1305 said:


> @jaypeecee can you access?



Hi @dw1305 

I can only access the Abstract of the 'Madsen TV and Sand-Jensen K.' paper but I can access and have just downloaded the full 'Ecological Imperatives..." paper.

Thanks for all your help.

JPC


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## X3NiTH (22 May 2020)

I looked for a description for this and found that it’s a blue liquid so not Humic or Fulvic based and it apparently moderates pH significantly so as @Witcher states probably a blend of Citrates possibly Gluconates also.

If I was writing SciBlurb information for a product and it was Humic Acid based I’d probably be quoting the Cavin Cycle too because I’ll have used Citric Acid to moderate the pH down to a neutral number because Humic Acids are only soluble in Alkali conditions. Whatever the formula is it will be made with the cheapest and easiest to source ingredients.

Like Glut/Excel you’d have to be careful not to overdose this stuff not because it’s a biocide but due to pH moderation.

I haven’t seen any detrimental effects of overdosing beyond bottle instructions (within reasonable limits) to the Microbe-Lift Humic based carbon supplement. I would DIY it but it’s cheap enough and most easily available.


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