# Peace @ UKAPS, please



## George Farmer (4 Apr 2009)

Hi everyone

I'll be open and honest with you all, as you are our dearly beloved UKAPS membership. I realise I may come across as unapproachable and distant at times but that's just my nature. I hope this post may help to break down some barriers there, anyway...

The aim of this thread is to try and promote some peace amongst UKAPS and its affected members.

I'm sure some of you are aware there's been a lot of negativity recently, reflected in this thread here -

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=5493

Firstly I was disappointed to see such aggressive posting directed towards one of our sponsors, and then some more aggression in retaliation.  It was distressing for me to see.  

I understand some of the scepticism regarding sole distribution etc. but personally feel that the consumer may benefit in the longer-term, especially given TGM's excellent track record so far. 

I would like to put a stop to all the sly digs at TGM, please. That does not mean you can not ask 'awkward' questions, of course, but please do so in an appropriate manner.

How TGM choose to do business is their business, and whilst I understand they are our sponsor and have a close working relationship with UKAPS (as do Aqua Essentials and the other sponsors), I would encourage those that are not happy with them to contact them privately. 

Even better, pay them a visit, or at least phone them. It's harder to understand the shop and their intentions without visiting the shop and speaking the staff. The written word can so easily be taken the wrong way, after all. 

I'm not sure how all this negativity started. I recall some issues with distributing ADA products and minimum orders. That is not our business and as discussed, any issues like these should be addressed in private, rather than creating a whole atmosphere of sarcastic undertones and passive aggression.  

Also, if sponsors have an issue with one another, I would encourage them to speak with one another.

I know the facts and can say that TGM are acting entirely appropriately, in my opinion.

Iâ€™m acutely aware that a forum ban on a well-liked (by many) member did harm the credibility of UKAPS.  I wonâ€™t go into specific details but the membership has been re-instated for some time now and I would like to encourage more positive posting on UKAPS by the relevant individuals.  

If this is not possible then I respectfully request that any member who chooses not to contribute to UKAPS in a positive manner avoids posting altogether.  I understand that this may result in the loss of some members, but if they are not helping UKAPS, then such is life.

My sincerest apologies to the vast majority of UKAPS members that contribute to the forum in a positive way.  I feel, in part, responsible for a lot of the recent â€˜wavesâ€™ and hope this thread may serve as a start to a peace process.  I realise I donâ€™t post so much these days, but trust me on that a lot of work goes on behind the scenes, especially by the other founders, admin and mods.

May I also take this opportunity to thank everyone for helping to make UKAPS what it is today.  Despite the odd â€˜blipâ€™ in the forumâ€™s running, caused by a minority and some questionable judgement calls, we have altogether made an incredible contribution to the UK planted tank and aquascaping scene and we should fee very proud.

So, please, letâ€™s concentrate on what binds us together, the love of the hobby, rather than our differences and help UKAPS grow in peace even further.

Best wishes to you all,
George


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## TDI-line (4 Apr 2009)

Thanks George, that was very well said.

Could i also add Congratulations to TGM for there Tropica distribution (i would off added to the original thread, but it is was closed).


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## LondonDragon (4 Apr 2009)

Nicely put George, I am of the same opinion, what TGM do or any other sponsor have nothing to do with how the forum is run, ok they are our sponsors but the guys at TGM have obiously worked hard to achieve what they have to far and congratulations to them, I never favour monopolies in businesses but there hasn't been proof of that yet anyway so we can't judge them on that and I haven't seen any noticable price changes on the stuff they are distributing either.

Business contracts are between the distributor and supplier and have nothing to do with us members, I don't agree with some things but you don't see me slagging off anyone, if you not happy contact these parties individually or find an alternative source for your products, there is plenty of choice nowadays anyway when it comes to soils, plants and ferts (even cheaper alternatives so I don't see the point of all the tension).

Just keep it peacefull here, has we are all trying to achieve the same, promote the hobby and make the UK Planted scene visible around the world, and we don't really need negative comments on other forums towards UKAPS. I think we are doing pretty well so far but there have been a few setbacks with this tension aimed at one single party.

Concentrate on the aquariums and not the aggrevation, peace guys!


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## GreenNeedle (4 Apr 2009)

I would've posted too but it was closed.  I won't go into my thoughts on the matter because I am not in the good books on this forum anyways.

AC


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## Themuleous (4 Apr 2009)

Loving the photo George, if nothing else, at lease everyone has something to laugh at  

Love this forum, always have, no doubt always will 

Sam


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## Thomas McMillan (4 Apr 2009)

That was nicely said, George. 

I think we should see this as a fresh-start. I appreciate we're all gonna have our differences, but at the end of the day this is UKAPS we're talking about and we're all here because of our passion for planted tanks. Come on guys, let's all get along.

(I like the photo too! )


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## Garuf (4 Apr 2009)

George, do you not get the joe 90 desert op's glasses like the ones my friend in the SAS got? I considered joining the army just to get a pair, till someone mentioned it's hard work and you have to do lots of running...  

I agree though George, when it becomes apparent to our American counterparts it's time we did something positive to move on. 
BBQ and a few tanks to scape would be a good way of building friendships and such, shouldn't cost too much if everyone chips in a few cuttings or some spare wood or rocks or something.


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## altaaffe (4 Apr 2009)

Well said George and good to see some positive reaction too.  Must admit I missed all the fuss with computer problems.

Is that a recent promotion ??  I'm sure you had Cpl tapes on the last pic I saw - if so many congrats.


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## Graeme Edwards (4 Apr 2009)

Hi all,

I just want to echo the sentiments of what George is saying. There has been a lot of discussions  between the mods, admin and founders behind the scenes to try and find a way of preventing the few upsetting the many.

There has been some very unpleasant behavior and antagonistic posting. We plead with you to think before you speak. If you feel some loyalty to any one or any company,for what ever reason, then keep it professional and in good spirit. There has been some blatant hostility to certain people/sponsors and it is not acceptable on this forum or as part of the Uk's only aquatic plant society. On the other hand, if you have any issue with any member for what ever reason, then take it up privately. If you choose to attack a member publicly or you are less than friendly or constructive, then you are dragging the name of Ukaps down and tarnishing us with an unpleasant brush. This is unacceptable.

The founders set about to create a friendly and informative society with a personal touch, meeting when we can and getting to know our members personally if possible. The whole initiative was a positive one, so for it to be anything eles would and is upsetting.

I hope we can move forward with a more positive and friendly approach towards Ukaps and its members.

Cheers.


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## glenn (4 Apr 2009)

well said serrgant farmer


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## plantbrain (6 Apr 2009)

Who could not trust a face like that  
Tropica is really different, as is Seachem, there are other lesser known brands etc that fall into this group, but these guys listen to Hobbyists, help them grow plants, offer some Real Science, not these Myth based garbage trying to Hock their wares. They are in business also, but that is not their entire mission.

They give back to the hobby, because they realize it's the hobby that helps them.
Many companies do not.

But rather than not telling things, say some dogma on the side etc, they offer some good information(take a look at Tropica's web site and see all the info they have posted there). Tropica is also a grower, much more than a "seller of ferts".

So they are commercial Horticultralist. This is vastly different than someone who merely sells a fert, or a widget.
Seachem took the time to come and speak to the clubs, to us on line and discuss the needs of hobbyists from their CEO, Greg Morin. I've met Claus from Tropica as well as the some of the other folks now there. 

These guys are not full of beans. There's a balance between business and the hobby, some companies are much less inclined than these to offer help, their choice and your money. These folks mare about as willing to help as anyone that has the time.

I did not look at the thread, but I'm certainly a veteran of many a forum rant, flame war and 3-4 libel claims, one ending in a Federal lawsuit. These things get protracted on line, much differently than we might in person, and then it's there to mull over and stew, often not the best flavor over time.

Be fair about things.
Realize that businesses and markets are there, they have the right to sell things etc.
You have this same right, you think you can do better and bring the products etc to market, it's still a somewhat free country there? Then do so. 
We also have the right to DIY, but many will not. 

So business targets and helps the hobby as much if not more than word of mouth/web.
These two groups should try and get along together.
This helps the hobby in different ways, but it does help the hobby as a whole.

I like heated debate, but the issue, not the person is what should be addressed. I'm every bit as much as anyone a DIY person, have been for a long time, but I also use many brand names where convenient for myself and for folks I help.
Looking at those scraps of Manzy wood you all where getting for high $$, I decided to do something that helped rather than just saying that it's everywhere here. Free wood, pay for shipping only.
This makes you happy and good will for me without too much trouble.

See? Solutions/resolutions to the issue, not bickering. Endless cycling of rants does not get through to folks. 
You need to demonstrate, test, show, prove, do something more than just talk.........to convince many/most.
This takes some creativity, some understanding about human nature and the power to change someone's mood from bad to good.

That ........is power.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JamesM (6 Apr 2009)

The only issue I have was down to the distribution of Tropica *plants*.

Having spoke with Tropica however, they assure me that nothing has changed in that regard. They will handle all imports of plants and distribute where they see fit (Pets @ Home, Maidenhead Aquatics, other LFS, etc.) as they have done for many years. Prices will also not change at these retail outlets.


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## GreenNeedle (6 Apr 2009)

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter because EU law still means those who want to can import from anywhere in the EU and aren't forced to go to their member countries authorised dealer, so I guess we are all moaning about nothing 

Personaly I never used ADA anyway and these days don't use Tropica either so its not really something that affects me 

AC


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## Simon D (6 Apr 2009)

Well said Tom,

You make perfect sense, you are a true ambassador to the hobby. Your post is calm and every word appears considered and I beleive it is from the heart.

My estimations of you (and more importantly your contributions), has reached a newer high. Almost shed a tear reading your post, how true!

I hope all "folks" (as you so quaintly put it) involved in the thread, read your post and I agree, peace @ UKAPS. 

We subscribe to this forum to help each other and to share information. Lets continue on this mission and lets be civilised in the process, it's the only way we can acheive this goal.

Time to move on now, as Ringo Star would say: "peace and love, peace and love"


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## Fred Dulley (7 Apr 2009)

Crickey.   
I think I've somehow missed seeing any of this "friction" in threads/posts.
Pleased to see this first step of resolving any problems.
Let the words of Dan live long, "UKAPS baby!".
Oh, and nice pic George


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## plantbrain (8 Apr 2009)

Simon D said:
			
		

> Well said Tom,
> 
> You make perfect sense, you are a true ambassador to the hobby. Your post is calm and every word appears considered and I beleive it is from the heart.



This is what I look like really:







> My estimations of you (and more importantly your contributions), has reached a newer high. Almost shed a tear reading your post, how true! I hope all "folks" (as you so quaintly put it) involved in the thread, read your post and I agree, peace @ UKAPS.  We subscribe to this forum to help each other and to share information. Lets continue on this mission and lets be civilised in the process, it's the only way we can acheive this goal. Time to move on now, as Ringo Star would say: "peace and love, peace and love"



I think it's important to note differences, but the sum of those differences is really the real strength in UKAPS.
You have a very wide range of folks and skills in many different areas. You all share the same passion. So there's never any need for personal baloney. You have to have some heated debates however.
As the hobby grows, many of the folks here shall become really good teachers.
As you folks have learned from myself and many others, so too shall others learn from you.
Like yourselves, I learned from many smart and wise folks also. 
Through this path I took, I found the work and job I like, I make good $ at it, end up places like this:




with Fontenalis Willow moss, or red Luwigia: 



That's me with my distingushed beard(sorry, I took the grey out and added green). 





I got back from Portugal last fall, heading to Oz for 2 weeks this Sept, all because of aquatic plants and helping folks.
 Have friends all over the world in languages and cultures I'm not even aware of yet.

So I learned more about human nature and philosophy I think, much more than aquatic plants, truth be told. 
But I still have a "Walter" in there  

Oliver Knott is also not what you might expect either, nice guy.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## GreenNeedle (8 Apr 2009)

> I think it's important to note differences, but the sum of those differences is really the real strength in UKAPS.
> You have a very wide range of folks and skills in many different areas. You all share the same passion. So there's never any need for personal baloney. You have to have some heated debates however.



I totally agree Tom.

I think the main problem is that this forum gives the 'impression' (I don't mean its the case in reality, just the appearance) that all the 'big players' are only interested in nature style high light tanks and other styles get ignored.  Doesn't bother me too much but from the outside looking in I think it does look that way.

We need to get back to how we began being a full on 'all aspects of planted tanks' site where it doesn't matter whether you are an aquascaper at all.  Just having plants and growing them well should be the main feature, with all aquascaping skills being the bonus that we all love to look at.

The site is starting to become a 'nature' style fanclub and it does appear that there is a clique developing when there is no need for this to happen.  I appreciate good plant growth no matter what style it is in or wether it is not even in a style 

I think this is what we need to do really.  Slow down. Get back to our roots.  Appreciate the simple things rather than pushing on to the 'advanced scaping' concept which is where many sites seem to have gone to.  If not we will just fritter away what we have and become a one dimensional site.

This isn't me being a 'nature' style hater.  Its me being a planted tank lover and that involves all aspects of the hobby from technical through to aesthetics.  Styles should not matter in the least.  Lets get back to plants guys 

AC


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## Dan Crawford (8 Apr 2009)

I agree with you on the fan base thing but i think thats just a trend at the moment? I don't know how to promote more Dutch or Jungle style tanks, people just seem to be steering towards the Nature Aquarium styles. I have a veritable jungle going on at the moment, maybe i'll post that and see if it helps.


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2009)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> The site is starting to become a 'nature' style fanclub and it does appear that there is a clique developing when there is no need for this to happen...
> 
> Appreciate the simple things rather than pushing on to the 'advanced scaping' concept which is where many sites seem to have gone to.



It is good to keep up with new trends and styles though, to keep the hobby fresh and developing, its also still a relatively new hobby in the UK and I guess it's inevitable that we are heavily influenced by other countries.  Once things develop Im sure the UK will develop its own range of styles.  Its probably the same in gardening, just think how much that has changed over the years! Though I believe the UK has been at the forefront of the gardening world for many years, if not centuries 

I am def going to try a jungle hopefully later this year. Iwagumi is great but the colour and vibrancy of jungle massive is just to tempting for me to resist.

Sam


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## GreenNeedle (8 Apr 2009)

I don't think its about promoting or even posting new scapes.  More a case of some of the more experienced people or the ones that have a 'reputation' in the hobby encouraging others.

I know when I was starting (and even now  ) I would be overjoyed when someone with a well known name in the scene posted on my journals.

I don't mean Amano posting.  What I mean is someone who is seen as 'highly regarded' within the hobby.

I wouldn't say I was anything special nor I guess would Aaron but on TFF we regularly help people and they are chuffed when one of us posts on their threads/journals.  All of us are 'building reputations' here and elsewhere.  I tend to get caboodles of pms on TFF asking me to advise.  Doesn't mean I am a 'big player' in the hobby.  Just that I post a lot, show good results and therefore have a presence on that particular site 

Its something that we can all work on.  All of us that have high posts, good growth and a lot of GOOD advice to give should try a little harder to make others feel like they are moving in the right direction and that they are not being ignored by the experienced.

Doesn't mean spending hours posting, can just be a case of reading a few more 'standard' posts than usual and if another of the 'big boys' is already in the post can mean that you can go for another.

Simple things, a couple of minutes.  Gives beginners and experienced alike a buzz to have these people in their posts.  Used to give me an adrenalin surge for George to post 2 or 3 words in my journals 

AC


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## George Farmer (8 Apr 2009)

Interesting comments there, Andy.  Thanks for your insight.

I'm certainly 'guilty' of paying more attention to the 'higher-tech' side of things, but try to help out in the other areas where I can.  Heck, I even wrote a PFK blog - "Who needs CO2?!"   

We can only really give advice on what we have experience of, after all.  I pretty much went from trying to grow non-aquatics with fake decor, to high-light, CO2 and EI.

I think the 'Nature Aquarium' style of aquascaping is _generally _more popular and the layouts we see on here are a reflection of that, some of your own layouts included, IMO.

However, I do like the 'jungle-style' too, and will often say so when I feel appropriate.  I know some 'big players' that do so too.  It would be nice to see some more Dutch styles, as well.  

UKAPS is a specialist planted aquarium site, so we try to cater for all levels, from the beginner to the experienced.  Of course, it's going to be tough to reach the 'perfect' balance, indeed impossible.

We cannot please everyone all the time, but we can try, and I thank you for pointing out a potential area where we may be able to improve.  Some food for thought, for sure.


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2009)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Doesn't mean spending hours posting, can just be a case of reading a few more 'standard' posts than usual and if another of the 'big boys' is already in the post can mean that you can go for another.



Maybe I'm missing something, but I had thought/hoped/felt that this was happening already?  Maybe thats just me though  

I guess I dont _have _to do any work...

Sam


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## GreenNeedle (8 Apr 2009)

Its just something I have noticed for quite a while and I admit has meant I have been veering off to other sites as a result.  We need to get away from the appearance that forum gives of the 'back patting' for people in 'the club'.  this is what others are seeing.  I think you guys have done a great job but need to slow down, take some time to look from outside and see what is happening.  I don't mean stand down, just look at the forum from the viewpoint of someone who is creating their first journal, struggling away, not getting very far and then seeing the same old faces posting on the each other's threads.

Personally I prefer my journals being short and not 40+ pages so I am pretty happy.  I have enough encouragement from the many forums I am on to keep me happy   Makes me feel good to lead someone via pm or thread from the beginning through to having a good tank.  Can take a month of pms or regularly posting and the result may be a tank full of stems that looks a mess butthe other person is overjoyed that they have good healthy plants and can then move onward to structuring, preferably from advice from someone else as planning and structure is definately not my strongpoint.

However I am not suggesting I want more jungle and less nature.  A bit more balance would be nice.  I like to be thought of as an aquascaper but not one-dimensional.  You will be surprised before the end of April 

AC


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## plantbrain (8 Apr 2009)

Since the non CO2 no water change method is so laborious and all.............it does not hurt to try it if you are techy scapeaholic?

It's a good exercise.

Likewise, for the low tech folks, try DIY CO2 and see if you can scape.
I wrote an old article about the 12 stages of the aquscaper many years ago.
It might apply well here:

Neil Frank's "Stages of the aquatic gardener" inspired me to think further as a scaping viewpoint.

Differentiating from the plant _gardener_, the plant aquascaper has a much longer, and less frustrating path in development. "Gardening" involves the growing aspects of aquatic horticulture. This includes the physiology, ecology, pruning, aquarium maintenance and mastering the ability to use the "colors"... the plants themselves.

I started off aquascaping with rock, next came coral and marine tanks, then driftwood and finally to plants both Marine and Freshwater. The "Aquascaper" uses the colors(the plants) to paint their design. Aquascaping involves all aspects of design and layout. This extends beyond the confines of the tank itself as a well placed tank in a home, office or or other dwelling will greatly enhance the over look and impact. One can be a great aquascaper yet a poor gardener, but most are good gardeners first then later develop their artistic abilities with more focus on the design.

Some wish to dissect the elements of the aquascape, immerse themselves in the artistic elements of space, design and layout. Some wish to focus on techniques such as attaching moss to wood for a natural effect. Some, like perhaps the majority of folks, wish simply to have a tank full of plants without algae and to have their choice of plants to grow. Most discussions about aquarium plants revolve around how to keep plants rather than design.

This trend is changing as the horticultural methods are becoming demystified.

Many people start off choosing plants that are not easy to grow for the beginner and change their design plans. Later, after a period of algae woes, they simply want to keep the tank free of algae. Many folks feel they need to work more on algae control and growing the plants than the aquascape. Some folks stay true to their original design. Other folks let the tank evolve on it's own. These stages are not in any sort of _definite order_ since many folks may jump from one area to another unlike many aspects of the mechanical/biological "gardening/horticulture". Nor is this all inclusive nor exhaustive listing.

Stage one: "Hey!, It's growing, I saw a new leaf today! I see pearling! It's Alive!(with a Dr. Frankenstein tone)". This stage is fun, but often the only goal is growing the plants but adding any plants to an aquarium is a design choice. Often, it's just what will grow in their tank and added anywhere. Many folks start off like this and later develop design interest.

Stage two: How much of the tank do I want to use for plants? Many folks start off with the goal to plant only a part of the tank or sparingly. This is not surprising since most folks are comfortable with rock and/or wood already. Seldom do folks jump right into a planted without other aquarium experiences so this allows them to "stick their big toe into the water" without fully committing to a full blown planted tank which might seem a bit too intimidating initially. These tanks can look very nice depending on the layout and the aquarist design and ideas and is perhaps a sub area of design versus a fully planted tank. Many aquarist want the fish to be the main focus and the plants to be a secondary consideration. Floating plants only can be added to most all freshwater aquariums and can be included in this stage. These tanks can be done to a very level of design and impact.

Stage three: The psychological disease known as "Collectoritus". This person wants every new plant that comes along (which includes most of us). This is a good exercise, though not at first glance. Since plants are the colors, learning how to grow each one of them is very helpful to execute later designs. You need the "colors" to "paint". It also helps the aquarist to get to know and understand each plant on a personal level and realize it's long term potential for placement in the tank design. Many plants may grow too fast for placement in a design for example while other may grow too slow to maintain the design choice without a great deal of work. Collectoritis is somewhat like a zoo, a few species here and there, mixed in, seldom looking like a natural design. But one of the most interesting of all tanks is the one that has many rare and interesting plants with a good design as well. This can be very challenging.

Stage four: "Darn, I can grow plants well, now I have to design something?" Many folks slowly increase the groups of plants they keep over the years. They start off with a little bit of Riccia in one corner. A couple of years later, they have added it as most of the foreground or the entire tank. Many folks are torn between having more species and having a large field of one to few species. But the overall impact can be seen in many aquarium of the large groupings of a single species. Nowhere has this been shown to be true than in Amano's book one with the Glossotigma. But the emphasis on the groupings impact becomes increasingly important and the aquarist is more willing to try larger grouping designs to see how the tank looks. This involves reducing other species which many aquarist have difficulty with. A good way around that: the plants will be there later when you want to redesign the tank, nothing is permanent. The tank grows and evolves, so does the aquascaper. Think of it as "renting" a few plants for awhile. If you change your mind, you can always go back and use the other plants, after all, planted tanks are anything but static, they are constantly changing.

Stage five: The technique freak. Using java fern attached to wood was the first real planted goal I had when I first decided to get serious about a fully planted tank. I thought that the Aponogeton bulbs I bought were Java fern and proceed to crush them into the wood cracks. Two out of the 20 lived. This stage involves some very gratifying work. It is somewhat like using the plant "colors" as it gives three dimensionality to many designs with a minimum of a maintenance. Moss looks very impressive on thin crooked branches stuffed into a group of rocks. Everyone loves Riccia rocks and branches. Using cotton thread, thin (but not too thin!), glues, like silicone folks can attach plants to rocks, driftwood or cork the back of the tank's wall(e.g. cork wall tanks). Folks that are interested in design and execution using these techniques often will make this the central theme and leave much of the remainder of tank more subdued.

Stage six: The sloper. The Sloper realizes that the tank's look and impact can be radically changed by adding hills and valleys to gravel/substrate. Sloping the gravel can create three dimensionality. Many aquascapers try to use the plants and trimming techniques to do this. This make the tank more labor intensive and often results in "flat tank syndrome" with overgrown plants most of the time. Sloping also opens a tank up more and keeps a sense of order and design in the tank.

Stage seven: The micro grouper. No, it's not a small Grouper fish. These folks will get a nice looking groups within a tank and try to add them together in an over all design. Sort of a collage of different micro scenes.

Stage eight: The external aquascaper. These folks often work outside of the tank with a nice cabinet design, lighting, house plants near by, nice location in the house, some put waterfalls, garden style rooms around their tank. Anything to do with the external tank designs.

Stage nine: The imitator. These folks see a design and try to emulate it. A good work study for folks. Although many are often too hard on themselves for not getting exact details down, later more seasoned folks realize that close to the same design with a different plant, or slightly differing rock arrangement, driftwood etc, does not ruin the design but actually gives each and every work it's own personality and uniqueness.A sub group here worth mentioning is the Canvasser. This aquarist uses a backdrop of a single plant, such as Glosstigm or Riccia are the background for design and then added color and texture to the tank. They can remove the plants and build or layer on the "plant canvas" and rearrange designs quickly without disturbing the tank or the general layout too much.

Stage ten: The Dutch aquarist. The focus is on design elements of the Dutch European style, gardens. Lots of pruning, generally easier plants are kept.

Stage eleven: The Natural aquarist: Design inspiration from natural scenes.

Stage twelve: The innovator: Makes their own style and techniques and attempts to break the conventions associated with aquascaping with a stunning impact.

Many of these stages are interwoven, intermingled and interconnected. Some folks start off with great designs, others take many years to find interest in this area. Some may never find much interest in this topic. But I think everyone is awed by a spectacularly designed tank. But folks need to take the risk and try out their ideas, there's no limit to the creativity if this hobby. A new person with a good interesting design will win out over the best grower in the world for an aquascaping competition. So try it!

Regards, Tom Barr


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2009)

Yeh guess so, Andy though I also guess we can only comment on what people post on which at the mo is mainly nature, but then that just makes it a vicious cycle!  I cant say I look any any other forums now, I just dont have the time and I like to get to know one place really well than a few not so well.  I know I certainly wouldn't be able to do this place justice if I had to keep tabs of a few forums.

Sam


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## Nelson (8 Apr 2009)

hi,
i'm new and i totally agree with Andy
neil


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## Themuleous (8 Apr 2009)

I guess this may also be a symptom of the relatively young age of the forum and small number of members?  c2000 is good but with more people will come more ideas and more scapes and greater variety.  

Sam


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## GreenNeedle (8 Apr 2009)

Whilst the membership is smaller we have an advantage over many forums in that there are a large number of 'expert/gurus' in this membership.  I would say a higher ratio than other forums.  We need to use that to our advantage and 'create' more gurus over time 

AC


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## George Farmer (8 Apr 2009)

There are plans in progress to have these so-called 'gurus' and 'experts' to be more active in replying to the less experienced members' threads, so please bear with us.  

There are only so many hours in the day (I'm writing this whilst I should be on my way home from work....), so some of the busier and more experienced members may be more likely to reply to 'easier' questions, threads and journals.

Most of the beginner's questions need more comprehensive answers, so take more time, that some of us don't have.  Most of my posts are pretty short, for this reason.  The longest posts are trying to promote peace! 

Anyway, as I say, we're aware of the situation and hopefully things will improve soon.

Thanks, again.


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## Dave Spencer (8 Apr 2009)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> It would be nice to see some more Dutch styles, as well.



Here is a style in which I think you would really shine, George.

The way I see it is this:

I work hard and long hours, so aquascaping is one of my releases from this. I do it for myself for my own pleasure. If that means that I don`t want to do a journal, or just don`t have the time, then so be it. It is my hobby and my choice.

CO2, EI and Amazonia, heavily influenced by Amano is my prefered choice at the moment, and a very narrow corridor down which I wander in this hobby. For me , now that I have a very firm grasp of the foundations of the hobby, I have just become very tired of going over the same old sand v gravel threads, plus all the myths that get regurgitated verbatim without a moments thought by the poster (not a problem on this particular forum).

I can become very jaded by forums at times, where people never search the forum for answers, or use Google. Why ask what a plant looks like when there is Google images.I wish people would have more get up and go and find things out for themselves, rather than expect to be spoon fed answers. Maybe it is just because I come from a working background where you have to think on your feet. 

I have answered considerably more questions than I have asked, but there are certain questions that I find I no longer can be bothered with. I leave these to the more enthusiastic, less jaded members.  . However, I do like to make a point of commenting on any newbie tanks that I think show a lot of promise.

This site should be welcoming to all abilities, but I just want to get on with sticking plants in mud. It`s why I started this hobby.

Dave.


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## Dan Crawford (8 Apr 2009)

This thread is getting off topic folks, George was trying to promote peace on the forum and it seems to be doing the opposite. Some valid points have been made and i'll open a new thread to for those who feel like they need to say their piece.


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## John Starkey (9 Apr 2009)

Hi all,
you say that dutch or jungle styles would be nice to see,well Dan posted some pics in my journal for me and the critiques i got were few and far between,

thats why i dont bother with pics that much.
John.


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## aaronnorth (10 Apr 2009)

> wouldn't say I was anything special nor I guess would Aaron but on TFF we regularly help people and they are chuffed when one of us posts on their threads/journals.


well...... only joking  

I get a good feeling when anyone posts on my journals, 



> I can become very jaded by forums at times, where people never search the forum for answers, or use Google. Why ask what a plant looks like when there is Google images.I wish people would have more get up and go and find things out for themselves, rather than expect to be spoon fed answers. Maybe it is just because I come from a working background where you have to think on your feet.



i agree 100% on that.


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## Themuleous (11 Apr 2009)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> > I can become very jaded by forums at times, where people never search the forum for answers, or use Google. Why ask what a plant looks like when there is Google images.I wish people would have more get up and go and find things out for themselves, rather than expect to be spoon fed answers. Maybe it is just because I come from a working background where you have to think on your feet.
> 
> 
> 
> i agree 100% on that.



Whilst I agree, just think back to when we all started in the hobby.  Did we know any better? I was useless and tff was the first forum I had ever joined so I didn't know any better.  I know better now, and always search a forum before posting.  But if people stopped helping out newbies we'd never get anyone new.  Surely that is also the point of a forum to give something back once you've been helped. 

Sam


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## aaronnorth (11 Apr 2009)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> aaronnorth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i suppose i agree on that too, although i didnt ask what a plant looks like.


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