# Since using EI not seen much improvement, ideas?



## tovtm (27 Jun 2011)

i have been using EI for 5-6 weeks in my 125ltr tank two 40w 48" T8 tubes on for 7hrs a day using co2 injection. i have a sand substrate but ive made sure ive littered the bottom with grow tabs.

i have my co2 up so that my co2 checker is on a very light green almost yellow (working through a atomizer on the outflow of external filter), i have seen a improvement in the plants in the way of the leaves are not turning black/dark green but in terms of growth rate im seeing very little change. 

the mixture i mix up is as follows and i do a weekly 50% change.
4 tsp KNO3
1.25 tsp KH2PO4
9 tsp MgSO4
Put all this in one bottle and add 600ml
I dose 50ml of this on days 1, 3 & 5

Add 1.25 tsp Trace to 200ml warm water, in a different bottle,
I dose 25ml of this on days 2 & 4

just wondered what if anything am i doing wrong or am i being impatient about the growth?


----------



## Bobtastic (27 Jun 2011)

Hi tovtm,

You've not listed the types of plants that you are growing, some plants are know for slow growth. The other thing, and is that light drives plant growth, so the higher the light the faster they will grow. Just as long as all other demands are met in the right measure (Co2/Ferts). Now I'm not suggesting that you add any more light (b4 I get struck down by the all mighty lord The CEG!) but it could explain slower grow rates. 

Hopefully someone with a little more experience and technical expertise will come along and help you.


----------



## tovtm (27 Jun 2011)

thanks bob hmm I did try to avoid putting the names as in all honesty I can't remember the names I know I have cypes best I can do is give you pictures (these were taken a week into EI) 




and these 



however when I first got these they used to look like this (picture once they were planted) 



and don't worry I won't do nothing to the set up until I'm advised to do so


----------



## ghostsword (27 Jun 2011)

I don't know how much dosing you per day but I  use these recipes and dose 5ml per 40l:

EI Dosing

Normal Dosing
-------------------
24g Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)=4 tsp
2.2g Potassium Phosphate (monobasic)(KH2PO4)= 1/2 tsp
17g Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)(MgSO4) = 4 tsp
4.0g  Potassium Sulphate (K2SO4) = +- 3/4 tsp
0.5g E300 Ascorbic Acid = 1/8 tsp
0.2g E202 Potassium Sorbate = 1/16 tsp
5g EDTA Chelated Trace Elements Mix = 1 tsp
Add 500ml distilled water



===


.


----------



## Bobtastic (27 Jun 2011)

Hey Luis, 

That looks like Tom B's TPN+ all in one mix? It's not quite EI in my knowledge. If you are unsure about your dosing amounts the FuildSensor Online EI Calculator. It's based on The CEGs EI recipe. I'm currently using it mixed into Macro and Micro (Trace) in 500ml bottles.

EDIT: Fixed link...


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Jun 2011)

tovtm said:
			
		

> i have been using EI for 5-6 weeks in my 125ltr tank two 40w 48" T8 tubes on for 7hrs a day using co2 injection. i have a sand substrate but ive made sure ive littered the bottom with grow tabs.
> 
> i have my co2 up so that my co2 checker is on a very light green almost yellow (working through a atomizer on the outflow of external filter), i have seen a improvement in the plants in the way of the leaves are not turning black/dark green but in terms of growth rate im seeing very little change.
> 
> ...


Hello,
    There could be lots of things that you are doing wrong. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that EI is some kind of panacea. Plant husbandry does not end simply with dosing. 

Having said that, an analysis of your dosing reveals high nutrient concentrations, therefore, in our troubleshooting we can eliminate dosing as a possible fault. No need to change anything there.

Lighting is not excessive if these are T8, therefore we can eliminate that as a possible fault.

As usual, that leaves CO2, flow and distribution as possible culprits. Now, the photos that you provide are confusing because they show plants under extreme duress. Many of the leaves appear to be suffering either BBA or Claophora or GSA. I cannot tell from those photos. Is that what they look like now, or were those historical photos? If that's what they look like now you've got serious problems. You need to cut all those infected leaves off and throw them away immediately.

I assume your dropchecker is filled with 4dkh water and not tank water or tap water, correct?

Another thing I can see in those photos is that it appears that you have some kind of 3D background. Is that so, or is it an optical illusion on my part? If that is a 3D background I suggest that you remove it immediately because I have a personal suspicion that these backgrounds tend to result in extreme flow disruption.

Which leads us to the next question of how much flow does the tank receive and how is that flow distributed? Do you have a total flow rating of 1250 litres per hour or more? Do you have spraybars across the back of the tank? 

So you need to remove the weak, dying and algae infected leaves ASAP and you need to identify the algae. You also need to clarify your flow/distribution.

To summarize, there is little doubt that your problem lies in some combination of CO2/flow/distribution. It's just a matter of determining which combination and to resolve these.

Cheers,


----------



## ghostsword (28 Jun 2011)

Bobtastic said:
			
		

> Hey Luis,
> 
> That looks like Tom B's TPN+ all in one mix? It's not quite EI in my knowledge. If you are unsure about your dosing amounts the FuildSensor Online EI Calculator. It's based on The CEGs EI recipe. I'm currently using it mixed into Macro and Micro (Trace) in 500ml bottles.
> 
> EDIT: Fixed link...



Oops, it may not be the "pure" EI, I just like to dose all in one, easier for me.  but it works perfectly, have not had any issue with it yet, been using it for about a year or so.

I also read the EI article from Clive, it is very similar dosing, just all in one solution. 


.


----------



## tovtm (28 Jun 2011)

this was a question I asked before about the drop checker. simple answer is no I use pure ro water as the company I got the checker from (once i asked about adding 4dkh) they insisted I used tank water however thought this was abit crap so used pure RO but if I need to use 4dkh will there solution they supplied still work?

it is a 3d background but it's stuck fast and would be a complete mess trying to get that out and I also like it. 

The flow maybe a problem I have a external fluval 204 filter which is only 680L/H (thought this was enough as it states works to 200ltr tank) I have the inlet far left of the tank and the outflow far right half way Down the tank and pointing towards the other end of the tank. 

the photos I supplied were historical photos but Il take some tonight at 6 and upload them on here as I can tell you know what your looking at where as I dont


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Jun 2011)

tovtm said:
			
		

> this was a question I asked before about the drop checker. simple answer is no I use pure ro water as the company I got the checker from (once i asked about adding 4dkh) they insisted I used tank water however thought this was abit crap so used pure RO but if I need to use 4dkh will there solution they supplied still work?


Well, I mean, "their solution" is just bromthymol blue. It's just a pH test kit. The pH indication is related to the CO2 content as well as to the kh of the water in the sample. When the kh is low the pH will be low and the CO2 will be low. So when you see the lime green colour of the dropchecker fill with RO water it's indicating a CO2 value much lower than if the dropchecker showed green with a higher kh. This means you tank is suffering from poor CO2. If you use tank water then the acids in the tank water react with the reagent, so it will be measuring more acid than what the CO2 could possibly generate and again will give you a false reading of CO2 content. You'll need to slowly increase your bubble rate and watch the fish. The dropchecker is quite useless in it's present configuration.



			
				tovtm said:
			
		

> it is a 3d background but it's stuck fast and would be a complete mess trying to get that out and I also like it.


Well if you like it then you like it. But just be aware that these are flow killers. It's like driving your car with the handbrakes engaged. It's at least partially responsible for mess inside the tank, of that I have little doubt. That means you need to pay even more attention to the details of flow/distribution.



			
				tovtm said:
			
		

> The flow maybe a problem I have a external fluval 204 filter which is only 680L/H (thought this was enough as it states works to 200ltr tank) I have the inlet far left of the tank and the outflow far right half way Down the tank and pointing towards the other end of the tank.


It works for a 200 litre un-planted tank or non-CO2 enriched tank. They don't tell you that on the packaging because that is not what they are focused on. This means you either need to supplement the flow with additional pumps like the popular Koralia, or, get another filter that's man enough for the job at hand.

Also, optimized flow is achieved when the water is pushed by spraybars from back to front, not along the length of the tank as you mention. However, if you insist on the background then this option is not available. This might mean you need even more flow. At any rate, increasing the gas injection rate for now will go a long way. Just be very careful so that you do not kill your fish. Best to do this when you have free time to sit and watch the fish for hours.

Cheers,


----------



## niru (28 Jun 2011)

the Bond is online  We are saved


----------



## tovtm (28 Jun 2011)

as it stands would I be better to upgrade the pump if so what do you recommend? or to get a Koralia powerhead 

I assume you say I wouldn't be able to have a powerhead as there would be no way of securing it to the back? if it would be beneficial then I can do a DIY spray bar and secure it no problem.


the last month has been one big learning curve so still learning and taking everything in


----------



## tovtm (28 Jun 2011)

here are pictures taken today of my plants 











hope these can tell a story


----------



## ghostsword (28 Jun 2011)

This looks like CO2 related, and not EI.


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Jun 2011)

Hi mate,
             Boy, those photos really do tell a story, a bit of a horror story I have to honestly say. You should not allow those infected leaves to remain in the tank. That only makes your problems worse because the algae sitting and feeding on the leaves just produce more spores, which then turn into more algae. I also hope that you are performing extra water changes to rid the tank of as many spores as possible. I mean, even you algae (those goofy moss balls) has algae, which must be some kind of Olympic record.

My personal preference is to use as powerful a filter as possible and to port the flow into a spraybar along the length of the tank. If you say that you can fabricate a DIY bar and mount it on the back wall then I'd opt for that solution assuming you can afford  the filter upgrade. Any filter in the 1200LPH or stronger category will do the trick. You won't have to completely fill the canister with biomedia, just transfer the media that you have now, so that saves money. I guess you can cut out a lengthwise section of the background at the top edge near the water line to mount the bar?

The E. tennelus also appear to have BBA, which is another CO2 dilemma, but right now you need to concentrate on solving the basic equation of flow/distribution, and you need to improve your injection rate without killing your fish. The better you flow and distribution are, the less injection you'll need, so there is an incentive to improve efficiency in this area.

Cheers,


----------

