# Creepy Hollow



## Kogre (8 Mar 2021)

Hi all.

So in 2013 I purchased a tank from ND Aquatics.  The size of it was 68"x24"x30".  It was made to fit in the space I had at the time, now I'm wishing I'd bought a 7ft tank... anyway, nothing happened with it for some time as the threat of moving house was always close by with the missus yo-yoing on the decision for literally years until I decided in 2017 that we were going to move.  It took a couple of years of looking but we finally found a house we all loved and moved into it in August 2019.  Then there were the (and still are) typical projects of things to do around the house before the finances became freed up for the tank to be worked on.  That was the middle of February.

Firstly, apologies for all the bad photos, I'm taking these on my phone and am no expert by any stretch of the imagination.

This is my first attempt at a planted aquarium.  I'm hoping to try and make it heavily planted as I have a lot of space that looks pretty empty still, as you'll see in the later photos.

The first thing I wanted to do was check to see if it could hold water, just to sanity check that it had survived the move unscathed, as during the move it wasn't necessarily treated as delicately as I would have liked.  It took four of us to lift it... the squeeze through doorways was the worst... and this had to be tipped onto it's side to twist it through the door into the study due to the proximity of the stairs to the room.  It held water but this highlighted a problem that I'll get onto shortly.

Here is the tank in what was an overcrowded study that was used as a home office and storage room/dumping ground:





I purchased a couple of Oase 850 Biomaster Thermos and plumbed them in.  When I had filled the tank to see whether it held water, I'd seen that it wasn't level.  I hadn't even considered that it wouldn't have been until I saw it with my own eyes.  The tank was sort of angled leaning slightly forwards and off to the right.  I began scouring the internet looking for ways I could fix this, even scrambling to another company requesting quotes to build me a cabinet with adjustable feet and build it on site.  It was pretty silly of me to have done this, but I wanted to consider my options.

In the end I emptied the room of everything but the tank and moved the tank to where my desk was so it was facing a north-facing window.  This was better for me, since lockdown I've had my back to the window and my screens have been reflecting the glare of outside.  I managed to clear up the clutter by donating our books to BHF, emptied any boxes and discarded what wasn't needed and overall just made the room easier to navigate and work in.

I had ordered 20kg of grey mountain stone from Riverwood Aquatics.  I hadn't seen or chosen the pieces so had to rely on the staff there on making the choices, overall I was pretty happy with the selections.  Perhaps not with the consistency of the different pieces themselves, such as the colouring on them, but overall I was pleased.  I had a 2 large pieces of wood that I had purchased from Wharf Aquatics and wanted to see what I could come up with as a layout, so laid a towel on the floor in front of the tank and messed around with various placements.




This isn't what I settled for, but the more I played around with the layouts, the more I realised that both of these were too big to both be in the tank.  They would have fit, but it wasn't worth wasting so much space with two feature pieces.  I decided to go with the darker one on the left.  It has a lot of visible grainy character, and I wasn't happy with the overall footprint of the one on the right, with it sprawling quite easily from the front to back of the tank and not able to twist it into different angles.

Anyway, losing one large piece of wood lead to more void space that needed filling, so I ordered another 15kg of the grey mountain stone.

Once again, I was really pleased with the rock selections.  Once everything arrived, I decided to crack on and get everything into the tank.




The base layer was Tropica Aquarium Soil.  I think I ended up dumping four 9 litre bags of the stuff into the tank.  With the background of the tank being black and the size of the pieces being so big, I wasn't happy with it, so this ended up being capped with 32-ish kg of Unipac aquarium silver sand.

Numerous schoolboy errors were made along the way:




Don't judge the Uni Kitty cup, I was using it to scoop sand into the tank lol!

Anyway, I had a few stones I hadn't used and attempted to weigh this wood down.  It worked for about 30 minutes, then I heard a crash and the stone had been chucked off and the wood was back coasting on the waterline.  It had kicked up a lot of soil in the process too.  I let it sit like this for about a week before I decided I didn't like what I had done with the rocks.  They were too linear and I hadn't made good use of depth.  Also, the cracks running through the stone weren't on full display with them being in the positions I had them in.  My thought was to lay them down.  That would create more void space, so I ordered more wood from Scaped Nature.  I had ordered redmoor wood, 1* XL, 2* large and 3* small.  These were reasonably priced and were exactly what I needed.  This time, however, I wasn't about to be defeated by buoyancy!  Well... that's what I thought anyway...

This is the layout I decided to go with:



I used this as an opportunity to weigh down the largest wood with a stone after I'd laid more sand over the exposed soil.  I used some expanding foam to stick four pieces together and bond them to stones to the right.  I did the same to the XL piece on the left.  I was still a little unhappy with the stones appearing linear on the right, so I moved them a couple of them to a different position.

I filled the tank to about 2/3 and let it run for a couple of days.  The noise was terrible and the humidity in the room went up to 55%.  I did this as I was afraid the buoyancy would pop something out of position and I didn't want the soil to be disturbed by the movement of any wood.




That was until last night, when I ended up just filling it.  I was really pleased with how it looked.





Until the inevitable happened.  😭





I only turn lights on for a minute when taking pictures, but I noticed some thin algae on some of the wood that looked like snot.  I scraped this off this morning.

This is where I am at the moment.  I'm still waiting for nitrites to show up, but I've disturbed the cycle a couple of times since setting it up.  I think I'm going to consider it as a restart from yesterday.

Many thanks to @Wookii for suggesting I post this in a journal and for kindly donating some used filter media.  I was put off posting this as a journal initially when I saw how awesome and impressive other users aquariums looked and I felt comparatively embarrassed.

Once again, sorry if there are too many pictures and the poor quality of them.  I'm quite excited to about this project due to it being almost 8 effing years in the making.  🤪


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## Karmicnull (8 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> I was put off posting this as a journal initially when I saw how awesome and impressive other users aquariums looked and I felt comparatively embarrassed.


Don't feel embarrassed!  There are a ton of us without a single artistic bone on our bodies whom you're already streets ahead of; My first post on the forum I'd more or less flung a plant and a rock in a tank and was dead chuffed with myself (it has improved since then but only marginally ).  The wood will eventually sink. It will get some mouldy fuzz on it for a while but that will go in time.  And then you'll be off and running.


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## Kogre (8 Mar 2021)

Karmicnull said:


> Don't feel embarrassed!  There are a ton of us without a single artistic bone on our bodies whom you're already streets ahead of; My first post on the forum I'd more or less flung a plant and a rock in a tank and was dead chuffed with myself (it has improved since then but only marginally ).  The wood will eventually sink. It will get some mouldy fuzz on it for a while but that will go in time.  And then you'll be off and running.


That's very kind of you to say so.  Thank you.  

I think your way of describing it as mouldy fuzz is certainly better than my own descriptive use of "snot".  🤣  I'm glad this is something that will leave eventually presumably with little to no intervention?


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## Wolf6 (8 Mar 2021)

Yeah dont worry too much about the mold. Amano's and otto's like to eat it sometimes, otherwise it disappears on its own eventually. I like the look, feels kind of ominous so the name seems to fit  Good luck!


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## Wookii (8 Mar 2021)

Glad you decided to start up a journal @Kogre - really nicely written!

You have absolutely nothing to feel embarrassed about, the tank looks awesome, and it’s a fantastic size. I’m looking forward to seeing it planted out, but you’re doing the right thing getting the wood sunk and everything in order first. The other thing you can do to help with the wood is use some brown or black grip ties to strap them to spare rocks and anchor them down.

It’s easy to hide the grip ties with moss or epiphyte plants where they are visible.


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## Gill (8 Mar 2021)

Don't be embarrassed at all.  I started off many many years ago and some of my earlier tanks make me cringe.  Fake plants galore and gaudy colours. 
This is a very nice sized tank, and i like the placement of the hardscape.


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## Kogre (8 Mar 2021)

Wolf6 said:


> Yeah dont worry too much about the mold. Amano's and otto's like to eat it sometimes, otherwise it disappears on its own eventually. I like the look, feels kind of ominous so the name seems to fit  Good luck!


Luckily I have both amano's and otto's on the stock list.  Thank you!  I reckon when it's planted in it'll lose some of the ominous feel.  I'll try to keep it going somehow.



Wookii said:


> You have absolutely nothing to feel embarrassed about, the tank looks awesome, and it’s a fantastic size. I’m looking forward to seeing it planted out, but you’re doing the right thing getting the wood sunk and everything in order first. The other thing you can do to help with the wood is use some brown or black grip ties to strap them to spare rocks and anchor them down.


Thanks @Wookii!  I think I have a single rock left which is pretty small.  If it isn't heavy enough to weigh the large piece down, I'll stick some gravel from my driveway into a filter bag and use that to weigh it down by zip tying it as you suggested (I think I have velcro ties somewhere to hand).  Thank you for the idea and feedback!  



Gill said:


> This is a very nice sized tank, and i like the placement of the hardscape.


Thank you for the compliment and feedback @Gill!


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## Kogre (8 Mar 2021)

Apparently my remaining stone was heavy enough to counter the buoyancy.  It's now back down.  Cheers for the helpful suggestion, @Wookii.

In this post for Kinabalu, you used twigs or vines or something that gave amazing detail and scale to the setup.  May I ask what this was and where you acquired it from?


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## Wookii (8 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Apparently my remaining stone was heavy enough to counter the buoyancy.  It's now back down.  Cheers for the helpful suggestion, @Wookii.
> 
> In this post for Kinabalu, you used twigs or vines or something that gave amazing detail and scale to the setup.  May I ask what this was and where you acquired it from?



The detail twigs were just small bits of manzanita and spider wood twigs. They can look quite effective, but in all honesty I don’t think I’d use them again, unless it was on a rock or area that I knew would be completely devoid of plants. 

It’s a lot of time, effort and frustration getting the twigs glued in place, for them to completely disappear under the plants a month later 😂


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## Gill (8 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Apparently my remaining stone was heavy enough to counter the buoyancy.  It's now back down.  Cheers for the helpful suggestion, @Wookii.
> 
> In this post for Kinabalu, you used twigs or vines or something that gave amazing detail and scale to the setup.  May I ask what this was and where you acquired it from?


You can get them in packs from the superfish brand. So any MA can get them in, or just hunt for twigs that have fallen off and are just scrap in the hardscape displays. 
Its what I do.


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## Kogre (8 Mar 2021)

I think based on the fact that they'll probably never be seen again once the tank has grown in, I might just skip them entirely.  A nice touch though.

Just had a great conversation about the stock for this tank with Sami from Sims Tropical Fish.  Very helpful and friendly.


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## Kogre (9 Mar 2021)

I really want this densely packed in with plants.  I have a style in mind and wrote to Aquarium Gardens requesting a quote for a plant list.  My jaw almost dropped when I saw the figure, costing more than the stock of fish I want to keep.  Dave was nice enough to put a 10% discount on which put a decent dent in the price and made it easier to digest.  I just won't tell my missus what I'm spending. 😑


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## Courtneybst (9 Mar 2021)

Yeah densely planting a 7ft tank won't be cheap in any way. It was expensive doing mine and I only have a 4ft track with the front relatively open. It can seem a lot but it's honestly so much better to just plant densely from the beginning. You'll likely save money, time and headache by having less algae and your scape will look better. But there's definitely options, that's just one quote.

You can get around it somewhat depending on your plant choices. Some plants will take up more space, some will fill in really quickly.


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## Kogre (9 Mar 2021)

It's 68" long not 84, but I get your point.  And you're absolutely right, I don't want to slowly populate it with plants, I want it as heavily planted as I can afford as soon as possible.  As it's the room I happen to work from, that's another reason.  I couldn't bare to look at it as an eyesore.  It's bad enough looking at it as it is.

Keep in mind that this is my first planted tank, and also first fishless cycle, presumably I won't want to add plants until after the nitrates show up and the filters are fully cycled so no ammonia and no nitrites?

If I want to heavily stock the tank with all of it's inhabitants from the outset, will I need to build up my dosing to larger and larger quantities of ammonia up to a certain amount (5ppm?  10ppm?! (how would I even measure this at this stage?)) before adding the critters or is it better to add the critters in three lots separated by a week or two?


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## Courtneybst (9 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> It's 68" long not 84, but I get your point. And you're absolutely right, I don't want to slowly populate it with plants, I want it as heavily planted as I can afford as soon as possible. As it's the room I happen to work from, that's another reason. I couldn't bare to look at it as an eyesore. It's bad enough looking at it as it is.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is my first planted tank, and also first fishless cycle, presumably I won't want to add plants until after the nitrates show up and the filters are fully cycled so no ammonia and no nitrites?
> 
> If I want to heavily stock the tank with all of it's inhabitants from the outset, will I need to build up my dosing to larger and larger quantities of ammonia up to a certain amount (5ppm? 10ppm?! (how would I even measure this at this stage?)) before adding the critters or is it better to add the critters in three lots separated by a week or two?



In terms of your cycling, even if fishless, you should add the plants from day 1. They'll only facilitate the cycling process further. It will also make your life a lot easier.

For the livestock you can add a fair amount if the system is cycled but adding them gradually is definitely better if you intend to do so from the beginning.


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## dw1305 (9 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> If I want to heavily stock the tank with all of it's inhabitants from the outset, will I need to build up my dosing to larger and larger quantities of ammonia up to a certain amount (5ppm? 10ppm?! (how would I even measure this at this stage?)) before adding the critters


I would <"very, very strongly"> recommend <"not doing this">, but have a read through <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments"> before you go any further.

I really like a floating plant for start up,  any will do, but my favourites are <"Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_)">, Hornwort (Ceratophyllum demersum) and <"Indian Fern (_Ceratopteris thalictroides_)">. You might be able to get some fast growing stems <"from other members">.  @GHNelson is an advocate of leaving stems floating until they are growing before planting.



Courtneybst said:


> In terms of your cycling, even if fishless, you should add the plants from day 1. They'll only facilitate the cycling process further. It will also make your life a lot easier.
> 
> For the livestock you can add a fair amount if the system is cycled but adding them gradually is definitely better if you intend to do so from the beginning.


That would be my advice as well.


Courtneybst said:


> Some plants will take up more space, some will fill in really quickly.


Have a look at @Filip Krupa's <"big tank"> it is planted with big plants.

cheers Darrel


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## Kogre (9 Mar 2021)

Many thanks for the response guys. I'm not sure where I read it but it was my understanding that planting out a non-cycled aquarium was risky to the plants. I don't plan to co2 but will do some generic water column dosing of ferts. I'm sure I bought Tropica concentrate but will confirm tomorrow.

I don't think I want to spend over £800 on plants only to have them shrivel and die unless I have confidence. Which at present I don't have a lot of.

I kinda guessed that I would have to trickle in the full stock. It's not a big deal, I'm impatient but can wait out a few weeks.

I'll post plant list and stock list tomorrow. Please feel free to let me know whether I'm doing okay or going too far. It could save me money, effort, time and heartache in the long run and I would really appreciate that.


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## Kogre (9 Mar 2021)

This'll be my view from my desk. There's a lot of that fuzzy algae coming through on the wood now. Refraining from doing anything by sheer force of will.


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2021)

As Darrel says @Kogre you don’t need to add any ammonia to the tank, it’s not beneficial. You also have aquarium soil as a base layer which will be releasing small amounts of ammonia through your sand capping layer into the water column anyway, so get rid of the additonal ammonia and run the tank as is.

You also don’t need to wait before adding your plants. The only time I personally would recommend running an initial dark start is if you have an aquarium soil only substrate, as it’s helps  (with large daily water changes) to prevent some of the damage than can be done to plants from the initial high ammonia levels.

In your case, with the sand capping layer, you should be good to go and start planting straight away.

Even after planting through, I would wait a month or so for the plants to be actively growing in before considering slowly adding any livestock.

Please do post up your proposed plant list too - aquarium plants are very expensive, but even so, £800 appear incredibly excessive, even for a tank the size of yours. Assuming the average price is £5-£6, that’s 130-160 individual plants/pots?!

I’m an advocate for high plant mass at start up, but that can be achieved with easy fast growing stem plants and floating plants (I throw these away almost weekly so I can send you some if you want any) in the first instance, to compliment your other species, and then swap them out later on for your preferred (perhaps slightly more demanding) plants once everything is becoming more established. That will give you an easier route to success and less risk of expensive losses early on. Buces for example are a plant you might consider waiting on until the tank is biologically mature.

Given the size of your tank I would recommend going with dry salts for your water column fertilisation. Get a starter kit from Aquarium Plant Food UK (when they next have stock) along with some measuring spoons, it’s very easy to make up the mixes and dose. If you can’t get that soon enough, TNC complete is perhaps your next best option, which you will need to triple dose I believe. (@Zeus. might be able to confirm).

Start the full dosing regime as soon as you add the plants.


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## Zeus. (10 Mar 2021)

Hi,
If you have no plants, turn the lights off and just run the filters and wait for it to cycle 4-6 weeks, TGM ( The Green Machine) used this technique on there tanks which doesn't always come across on the vids. Then drain 70% plant and fill.

TNC would need to x6 to reach EI levels but x3 may be enough but after all the effect I would advise x6 but not cheap. Making your own ferts with your size tank is a must IMO. The starter kits may be sold out but nothing stopping you just buying the salts on there own. If you need help ask. We do have the IFC calculator but it is not for the novice and DIY ferts is a very daunting at first. You can also use Rotala Butterfly or Zofoxs fert calculators but will need pen and paper or spreadsheet to add everything up ( IFC does all the maths for you)


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## Kogre (10 Mar 2021)

Thank you both for the replies.

Originally, I had the following layout as a basis for my own planting:



			https://tropica.com/ProductMedia/Layouts/L108/1029_UK.pdf
		


I took the figures, multiplied by three and ended up with a list that ended up with me requiring a mortgage:

Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii' 15 pcs
Echinodorus 'Reni'  6 pcs.
Ludwigia palustris  6 pcs.
Vallisneria spiralis 'Tiger'  6 pcs
Vallisneria americana gigantea 9 pcs
Bucephalandra pygmaea 'Wavy Green' 21 pcs
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'  6 pcs
Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow' 6 pcs
Anubias barteri var. caladiifolia 6 pcs
Anubias barteria var. barteri 6pcs
Staurogyne repens 24 pcs
Sagittaria subulata  15 pcs
Microsorum pteropus 12 pcs
Echinodorus grisebachii 'Bleherae' 12 pcs
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' 6 pcs
java moss 30pcs

I've exchanged messages with @Courtneybst (thank you for your advice!) who helped me revise these figures to something akin to the following (multiples of 5 for discount from Birstall, waiting on a requote):

Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii' 15 pcs
Ludwigia palustris 6 pcs.
Vallisneria spiralis 'Tiger' 4 pcs
Vallisneria americana gigantea 6 pcs
Bucephalandra pygmaea 'Wavy Green' 21 pcs
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident' 12 pcs
Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow' 12 pcs
Anubias barteri var. caladiifolia 4 pcs
Anubias barteria var. barteri 4 pcs
Staurogyne repens 15 pcs
Sagittaria subulata 15 pcs
Echinodorus grisebachii 'Bleherae' 9 pcs
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' 4 pcs
Echinodorus 'Reni' 4 pcs.
Java Moss 15 pcs

Hopefully this will be significantly cheaper, or at least a lot more affordable and will be enough to fill out the tank.

This was my idea for a stocklist:

1x Siamese Algea Eater
6x Ottocinclus
12x Amano Shrimp
6x Blue Cherry Shrimp ?
6x Crystal Red Chrimp ?
12x Blue Angelfish
2x L144 (1m 1f)
8x Apistogramma Cacatuoides (3m 5f - want males to be 1 yellow, 1 super red and another orange)
6x C. Julii
6x C. Panda
12x Red Congo Tetras
30x Rummy Nose Tetras
30x Cardinal Tetras

This may be too much.  If need be I'll omit the Cardinals and bump up the Rummy Noses (to 40-ish)... leaning more towards the Rummy Nose as my background is black and hoping the contrast makes them pop.  I'll happily buy everything piecemeal.  That gives me a chance to catch up on that currently exhausted credit card.

I have TNC complete at the moment, 5 liters of it.  It claims I need to add 1ml per 10liters of water a week.  I bought this as I thought it would last me over a year.  I take it this isn't as great as I thought it was?

Thanks for your replies once again, always appreciated.


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## Zeus. (10 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> TNC complete at the moment, 5 liters of it. It claims I need to add 1ml per 10liters of water a week. I bought this as I thought it would last me over a year. I take it this isn't as great as I thought it was?







TNC is a fine fert and best value AIO ( All In One) in UK ATM, but with 650l tank it will cost you £1.10 a week at STD dose, to dose at EI levels £6.60 per week

An APFUK mix cost about £0.40 per week for you tank

Full DIY EI dose would cost £1.38 a week if using RO water- but would addressing some/all of the Remineralising as well


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## Kogre (10 Mar 2021)

@Wookii is this what you were talking about?


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## Courtneybst (10 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Is this useful for me to purchase?



Definitely better value. I bought this kit (didn't have spoons at the time) about 4-5 years ago and I still have it! I've only had to get more potassium and trace.


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## Courtneybst (10 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> This was my idea for a stocklist:
> 
> 1x Siamese Algea Eater
> 6x Ottocinclus
> ...


As for your stocking list, I'm going to sound like a complete hypocrite because I keep an angelfish with amano shrimp. I only did this because I know the temperament of my angelfish but if I was buying a new set from the shop I wouldn't risk it personally. I've had some angelfish that are maniacs. The cherry and crystal red shrimp simply wouldn't survive, I honestly wouldn't bother.

I think the apistos _might_ work but I've never kept a group that large before so I'll have to hand that over to someone else.


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## Kogre (10 Mar 2021)

Thanks @Courtneybst.  I've just ordered it.  At least I have something to fall back on at a better value once I'm out of TNC Complete.

Once I've planted everything in, I'll dose the TNC Complete at triple the recommended amount.

As for the stocking, I was hoping the plant mass would provide plenty of hiding places for the shrimp to survive if they were being hunted.  I guess a way around this is to purchase the angelfish young.  The cherry and red shrimps had question marks next to them as I wasn't sure based on them being so small with the angelfish as well as apistogrammas, but I had hoped the Amano would be a better option.

I always knew the angelfish were aholes.  I went from this being a discus tank to being an angelfish community tank, I couldn't be bothered with the discus looking pretty but not really doing a fat lot.  I also thought the tank being 30" tall would complement the long bodies of the angelfish.  Now I'm at a loss for a centerpiece fish in this community, either I lose them or lose the hardworking shrimp that would have created nice small points of interest.


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2021)

Are you running CO2 on this tank @Kogre, in the back of my mind I had assumed you were, but now I’ve reread your OP, I don’t see it mentioned?

The TNC isn’t a waste of money, you can still very much use it, but how much you need to use will depend on whether you are injecting CO2.

I’m glad that @Courtneybst is advising you on the plants, so I won’t butt in too much on that, other than to say you might be able to trim it down further - for example, whilst obviously depending on the size of the plants, are you likely to need 24 full size Microsorum plants?

On the stocking list, that looks very high to me, even for an 800 litre tank. There will be others more knowledgable than me that can advise you better on compatibility such as @dw1305 @alto @MirandaB , particularly on the Apistos, but I think you need to be thinking about half that stock - at least initially and see how it goes.

If you are using tap water, I’d assume it’s fairly hard like mine, if so you won’t be able to keep Crystal shrimp, or indeed any Caridina species. Cherries - Neocaridina - will be fine, but I’d look to be adding 30+ to a tank that size to kick off the colony. That said, given the size of the fish you plan to keep, I suspect the shrimp will end up as expensive fish food, except perhaps the very largest Amanos.


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> @Wookii is this what you were talking about?



Yep, that’ll get you started!


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## Wookii (10 Mar 2021)

Have a go at plugging your stock list in this calculator and see what it comes out at:



			https://aqadvisor.com/
		


EDIT: I’ve just roughly plugged them in. Assuming I’ve selected all the correct or similar species, that’d put you are around 140% capacity with that stock list, so I’d reduce by at least a 3rd.


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## Kogre (10 Mar 2021)

Thanks @Wookii.  I think the rationale behind the microsorums were that as the regular version had been omitted which was the larger variety, the smaller versions needed to be reinforced in number to make up for the lost plant mass.  Nothing is set in stone here, and I'm happy to adjust based on consensus.  The one thing I am worried about though it pissing off the people I've been requesting multiple quotes from by requesting yet another.  😅

I don't see my filter listed (Oase Biomaster Thermo 850) so chose the option to use "User Defined".  For gUS figure, presumably that is the max aquarium volume that the filter can support in US gallons?  I entered 225 but I'm not sure this figure is correct.

I ditched the Cardinals, halved the Angelfish, halved the rummy nosed tetras and played around with the Oto and cory numbers and got the following:





Again, I'm not sure the filter figure entered is correct.

I may need assistance with choice of a centerpiece fish if the Angelfish are a no-go.  Turn the temperature up and go with discus?

Oh, almost forgot, I don't plan to run any CO2 on this.

Thank you for the link, that is super helpful, I just hope I got my filter approximation right.


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## Kogre (11 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> As Darrel says @Kogre you don’t need to add any ammonia to the tank, it’s not beneficial. You also have aquarium soil as a base layer which will be releasing small amounts of ammonia through your sand capping layer into the water column anyway, so get rid of the additonal ammonia and run the tank as is.


This explains why I'm seeing the concentrations of ammonia creep up and I've not added any ammonia since the weekend.  It's sat at around 1ppm, nitrite is at 0.25ppm and nitrate is 5ppm.  Looks like seeding the filter has given it a boost (thank you), obviously I will wait until ammonia and nitrite read 0 before adding any livestock.

I read here (under Dosage heading) that large concentrations of ammonia can inhibit the growth of the nitrite to nitrate bacteria colonies.  Does that mean if I continue to see it rise to higher concentrations I should do a water change to keep it diluted to ~1ppm ammonia or shall I just leave it and let it run it's course?

I've had another quote back from Birstall Garden and Leisure for the plants.  Vera there was really helpful and the price was really good.  I'm leaning towards purchasing from them depending on other quotes I'm waiting on but it's looking incredibly likely.  They could do everything other than the vallisneria, but I've already found some on ebay at a good price.


----------



## Kalum (11 Mar 2021)

some really nice varieties in your stocking list and a great tank to house them in as well, but sometimes you can have too much variety (lets be serious we've all been there wanting to just have it all in one tank and i've done it in the past and still need to reign myself in now)

While there's certainly no reason why you can't as long as you're not overstocked, sometimes less (variety) is more as it can make a tank very busy with them all trying to do their own thing. Less variety but upping the numbers of the ones you do have can sometimes be more jaw dropping when you see their 'natural' (as much as it can be in a glass box) behavior come out and they school or show breeding traits etc....

having that many apistos with corys will either be hit or miss, your amanos may be big enough to be left alone or also be targeted by the apistos when they get extremely aggressive during breeding

if you moved from angels to discus then you'd need to change the corys to something that likes the warmer water like sterbai

it's always a good thing to decide your 1 must have fish, your centerpiece species, then build all of the other stocking around that so they compliment them


----------



## ScareCrow (11 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> 6x Blue Cherry Shrimp ?
> 6x Crystal Red Chrimp ?


Cherry shrimp (Neocaridina) of all colour varieties want different water parameters to Crystal Red Shrimp (Caridina). Unless you're set on the Crystals or have perfect parameters for them straight out of your tap, I'd stick to cherries for a mixed community setup. They're hardier and as there are a lot of shrimp predators (most fish will eat shrimp) in your list, you're more likely to get a self sustaining colony. If you want an easier crystal imitation, have a look at red rili's. They're not as striking as the crystals but do have red and white bands and are another Neocaridina, so are relatively hardy. Mixing colour strains of Neocaridina can result in less colourful shrimp being produced and long term you'll probably end up with mostly brown/wild type shrimp but you may end up with some nice anomaly's along the way.


----------



## Kogre (11 Mar 2021)

Those shrimp have been removed and I've adjusted the stocklist to reduce the total number:





@Kalum I totally agree, I think realistically I'd be happy with the Apistogramma, the Angelfish and the tetras.  Everything else was there as a clean up crew or for movement at the substrate level.  I've always wanted corydoras and can change them to a different type which might stand a better chance with the apistos.


----------



## ScareCrow (11 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Those shrimp have been removed and I've adjusted the stocklist to reduce the total number


Oh I see, sorry I wasn't sure if the shrimp had been left off because of their negligible bioload but I see you have Amano shrimp on there.


----------



## Kogre (12 Mar 2021)

This stuff looks pretty nasty.  Probably a good thing I don't plan on having my hands in the tank anytime soon. 

Should I scrape this off where I can when it eventually comes to planting? 

I swapped out the Oase inlets and outlets stainless steel ones.  They look a lot better but the inlet doesn't run as deep.  Not a big deal.  I'll probably need to pick up a Nero for movement lower down at some point in the distant future.  I have the outlet on the left aimed towards the right, and the outlet on the right aimed towards the front at an angle.

I had a quote back from AG and it seems to have gone up.  It was also suggested that I buy MORE plants to bump up the price so I could get a 10% discount, essentially giving me £100 of free plants that I don't have the space or finances to cover.  Still leaning towards Birstall Leisure and Gardens/ebay.


----------



## Zeus. (12 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> should I scrape this off where I can when it eventually comes to planting?


Yes, but dont warry about getting it all, once cycled and planted Amanos soon sort it out


----------



## Kogre (12 Mar 2021)

If I was to dose my tank with the necessary micros and macros with APFUK Ei start kit, that's completely independent of me not running CO2, right?  As in I'd imagine (or guess) nutrient uptake to be significantly higher in CO2 systems.  If this is the case, are doses different between CO2 and non-CO2 systems?


----------



## Wookii (12 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> If I was to dose my tank with the necessary micros and macros with APFUK Ei start kit, that's completely independent of me not running CO2, right?  As in I'd imagine (or guess) nutrient uptake to be significantly higher in CO2 systems.  If this is the case, are doses different between CO2 and non-CO2 systems?



No, you don’t need nearly the dosing levels for low tech as you do high tech. I dose around a fifth to a quarter of EI on my low tech including regular water changes.

You can start off and use your TNC Complete up, and dose maybe around 2-3ml a day and see how you get on? If you use some floating plants like Amazon Frogbit, it will help you identify any deficiencies.

The white slimy stuff on your wood is a fungus, and is quite common on spider wood in particular, it is harmless and should disappear on its own, but manual removal should speed that up.


----------



## Kogre (12 Mar 2021)

Thank you mate.  I do want to have some kind of floating plant and Frogbit was my preferred aesthetic.  If you happen to have any going, I'd humbly accept a handful.

I ended up pulling the trigger on plants.  Well... 80% of them.  I was told there wasn't a guaranteed delivery date on them, the longer it is the better as far as I am concerned, so the tank cycles in and I don't end up feeling like a chump throwing all that money away on creating aquatic mush.

@Wookii so if I wasn't to run any CO2, would you suggest doing triple recommended dose of TNC Complete or sticking to the baseline suggested?  I'll kick the same question about the APFUK down the road until I get there.


----------



## Wookii (12 Mar 2021)

You could use the standard dose of 1ml (per 10 litres), but as per @Zeus.’s table above, EI levels are reached at about 5ml per 10 litres, so I personally would double up and maybe do 2ml per 10 litres to start with and see how you go.

Your tap water will be giving you some elements too, so if you are planning on a decent weekly water change, that will help too.

Be aware that lots of people dose a lot less on low tech tanks though, so don’t take the above as gospel - I just personally prefer a system that removes as many variables for me as possible, so dosing EI (though a reduced version) on my low tech, in combination with lots of water changes, works for me, and takes some of the thinking out of it.


----------



## Kogre (13 Mar 2021)

Thanks for the response, @Wookii.  I find it odd that all the mentionings of EI don't qualify themselves to lean towards CO2 injected systems, so I'm glad I asked.  The dry ferts arrived this morning but I won't open them until I've exhausted the TNC Complete and will dose as you suggested once the plants are in.

Interestingly, I'm not sure why but I think my cycle seems to have stalled.  The nitrites aren't rising and neither are the nitrates.  It might be premature of me to expect any changes at this stage.


----------



## Wookii (13 Mar 2021)

I wouldn’t worry about your cycling, and I certainly wouldn’t bother too much about measuring nitrates. In fact don’t bother measuring anything until you reach the point of adding livestock. Only then will you need to worry about checking ammonia and nitrite levels, and by that point I doubt there’ll be any anyway.

Just get it planted, keep on top of ferts dosing and water changes, and enjoy watching the plants start to grow.

Given you have four Primes over the tank, you’re going to have to be careful of light intensity without CO2 injection, if you want to avoid algae - even at your planned levels of 40%. Some floating plants will really help that, so I can certainly send you some when your plant order is due to arrive - just let me know.


----------



## Kogre (13 Mar 2021)

You are a star.  Thank you.  

I actually started off with three of the lights but because of the jank left behind from the evaporation covers, had to change the layout due to where the glass crossbars were placed.  I even had to use a janky solution to use the tank mounts for the lights.  I'll take pictures of that and post in due course.

Also, I'm not leaning heavily towards it but have been looking into CO2 to see whether it is something I am able to cost in.  While I'm still on the fence about it all, I have been drawing a blank as to why there aren't any affordable all in one systems that may be attractive to newbies like myself.  I guess it's still pretty specialist...


----------



## Kogre (13 Mar 2021)

I've taken a stab at identifying the epiphyte plants amongst what I have, but if anyone could confirm whether I've ballsed up or not, that would be great:

Cryptocoryne beckettii 'Petchii'
Ludwigia palustris
Vallisneria spiralis 'Tiger'
Vallisneria americana gigantea
*Bucephalandra pygmaea 'Wavy Green'  epiphytes
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'  epiphytes
Microsorum pteropus 'Narrow'  epiphytes
Anubias barteri var. caladiifolia  epiphytes
Anubias barteria var. barteri  epiphytes*
Staurogyne repens
Sagittaria subulata
Echinodorus grisebachii 'Bleherae'
Echinodorus 'Ozelot'
Echinodorus 'Reni'
Java Moss
Nymphaea lotus (zenkeri)


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## Wookii (13 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Also, I'm not leaning heavily towards it but have been looking into CO2 to see whether it is something I am able to cost in.  While I'm still on the fence about it all, I have been drawing a blank as to why there aren't any affordable all in one systems that may be attractive to newbies like myself.  I guess it's still pretty specialist...



Hmmm . . . it’s a tricky one. An 800 litre tank will require a lot of gas, it’s also a very deep tank to be doing lots of cutting and replanting on a weekly basis as is often required in a high light CO2 setup.

It’s entirely your choice ofcourse, but if it were mine, I would plan to run it as a low tech in terms of plant choices, dosing and light levels. Then if you choose to add CO2, at a lower level (say 10-15ppm) it will most certainly help with plant growth but without being a full “pedal to the metal” high light, 30ppm CO2 setup.


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## Kogre (13 Mar 2021)

Thank you for the input as always mate.

That makes more sense.  I thought if a disaster happens in this tank I'd prefer for it to happen in slow motion rather than to accelerate it with gas.  I'd prefer the slower growth so I don't need to have my hands in the tank so often.

Ultimately, maintenance wise, I don't mind doing 50% water changes a couple of times a week.  It will end up being straight from tap so will be interesting to see how the plants react once they're in.

I have no idea when it comes to plant choice being not-very-demanding.  If I have plants on my list that are highly demanding could you let me know?  I picked it from a suggested Tropica layout that had the rating as easy so I can't imagine anything being too demanding, but you never do know...


----------



## Zeus. (13 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> it’s also a very deep tank to be doing lots of cutting and replanting on a weekly basis as is often required



+1👍
With a tank your size the height of the tank on the based with the bracing will make maintenance very difficult unless your about 7 foot tall. I got a 60x24x24 braced tank from ND aquatics and struggle to reach the substrate level at times and I am 5ft 10in, so you may have the same issue esp if its 30 inches high.

Yes you can use long pincetes as I do (300mm) but your heads at the top of the tank when your pincetes are at the bottom, so hand eye coordination can get tricky some times.

Otherwise you will be joining the 'Crazy club' which @Filip Krupa is a member off 🤣 (no offence to Filip 😉 as he has done wonders with his 2,000l High Tech Beast, which has been a joy to follow  )





Joking apart, the deeper tanks get tricky.


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## Filip Krupa (14 Mar 2021)

Zeus. said:


> +1👍
> With a tank your size the height of the tank on the based with the bracing will make maintenance very difficult unless your about 7 foot tall. I got a 60x24x24 braced tank from ND aquatics and struggle to reach the substrate level at times and I am 5ft 10in, so you may have the same issue esp if its 30 inches high.
> 
> Yes you can use long pincetes as I do (300mm) but your heads at the top of the tank when your pincetes are at the bottom, so hand eye coordination can get tricky some times.
> ...


Please please join my crazy club @Kogre !!! Its a lonely place at the moment 🤣

Btw, when I have a ton of trimming to do, I just get in, squat in the middle with my mask and breathing tube and get hacking. No joke 🤣


----------



## Filip Krupa (14 Mar 2021)

Nice size and shape tank youve got there!
Drop me a line if youre struggling with anything, chances are Ive been there!

Fil


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## Conort2 (14 Mar 2021)

Sounds like a great well thought out plan! In regards to your planting I’ve seen you’ve added staurogyne. If you’re not using co2 you may struggle with this one. And you need a lot of pots!  So would hate to see you waste your money on them. Maybe try a few pots first to see how it goes? has anyone else on here managed with it low tech? Microsorum trident is also another one I struggle with without the addition of co2, it’s classed as an easy plant but I find it prefers high tech conditions to get going.

anyone else had similar issues with these two or can they be grown low tech easily?

cheers


----------



## Courtneybst (14 Mar 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Sounds like a great well thought out plan! In regards to your planting I’ve seen you’ve added staurogyne. If you’re not using co2 you may struggle with this one. And you need a lot of pots! So would hate to see you waste your money on them. Maybe try a few pots first to see how it goes? has anyone else on here managed with it low tech? Microsorum trident is also another one I struggle with without the addition of co2, it’s classed as an easy plant but I find it prefers high tech conditions to get going.
> 
> anyone else had similar issues with these two or can they be grown low tech easily?
> 
> cheers



I've grown Staurogyne Repens in non CO2 and it grew really well. Was able to spread it out very easily. 

I'm also growing Trident fern in my current setup, it's only been 2 weeks but it looks healthy, it's growing (slowly). The parts that are more shaded are a bit thinner so it clearly likes more light than your average Java fern.


----------



## Wookii (15 Mar 2021)

@Kogre I had a trimming and tidy up session on my high tech yesterday, so as promised I’ve put together a good sized tub for you of Amazon Frogbit and Red Root Floaters. I’ll get them sent out tomorrow.





These won’t cover a lot of your surface given your tank size, but with decent ferts levels they spread rapidly.

I don’t know when your main plant order is due to arrive, but if these arrive ahead of the other plants you should be okay to just keep them in a tray or bucket of water in a spot that gets a decent amount of daylight until you’re ready for them.


----------



## Kogre (15 Mar 2021)

Woah that's so nice of you, thank you @Wookii 

I'm not sure when the plants will get here, I was told it could take weeks due to coronavirus and Brexit. I don't mind the wait.

Thanks once again!


----------



## Kogre (18 Mar 2021)

Looks like I'll be receiving my plants in three batches.  I have to wait for the Microsorum pteropus 'Trident' and there may have been something else I had to wait on, but the Anubias barteria var. barteri have been replaced with nana as the (believe it or not) var. barteri are discontinued.  So the order I've placed with Birstall will arrive in two lots at least and the items they couldn't sell due to them being discontinued or unavailable such as the Vallisneria I'll need to order off of ebay.  I may just order the Vall and moss, plant those when they get here and then begin planting when everything else turns up.  Not the way I wanted to go about planting the aquarium out but it doesn't look like I'll have a choice if the Birstall lot arrives in two batches anyway.  Is there a downside to partially planting over time (a period of perhaps up to three weeks)?

@Wookii the floaters arrived as I was typing this post, many thanks for this supply.  I might just throw them into the tank and turn the lights on low (10%) unless that is unadvisable.


----------



## dw1305 (18 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> I might just throw them into the tank and turn the lights on low (10%) unless that is unadvisable.


Put them in the tank, but turn <"the lights up so that they are fairly bright">. Because they are floating plants they aren't CO2 limited, but if they don't get enough light to get <"above LCP"> they will be dying, rather than growing, and that isn't going to help.

I know @Wookii is a "Frogbit whisperer" and has done wonders with the poor plants he got <"from a fairly dodgy supplier">. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii (18 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Looks like I'll be receiving my plants in three batches.  I have to wait for the Microsorum pteropus 'Trident' and there may have been something else I had to wait on, but the Anubias barteria var. barteri have been replaced with nana as the (believe it or not) var. barteri are discontinued.  So the order I've placed with Birstall will arrive in two lots at least and the items they couldn't sell due to them being discontinued or unavailable such as the Vallisneria I'll need to order off of ebay.  I may just order the Vall and moss, plant those when they get here and then begin planting when everything else turns up.  Not the way I wanted to go about planting the aquarium out but it doesn't look like I'll have a choice if the Birstall lot arrives in two batches anyway.  Is there a downside to partially planting over time (a period of perhaps up to three weeks)?
> 
> @Wookii the floaters arrived as I was typing this post, many thanks for this supply.  I might just throw them into the tank and turn the lights on low (10%) unless that is unadvisable.



I'm glad the floaters have arrived. You could add them to the tank, but I would find a way to keep them at one end (a bit of airline tubing floating across the the surface attached to front and rear glass for example) and just turn one light on low (probably a bit more than 10% though).

I think as your tank will not have CO2 injection, as long as you don't crank you lights up too high you should be fine adding your plants in batches - but you should add some ferts straight away. I might be inclined to go for a shorter photoperiod (say 6-8 hours) while only partially planted. The most difficult to plant are the epiphytes and mosses, and you may need to drain the tank, or remove the hardscape they are being attached to, when adding those. For the moss I would recommend whipping it on with fishing line rather than gluing it, but gluing will work best for the other epiphytes unless you can  find some gaps to physically wedge them in until they self attach.

When the tridents arrive, you might be able to avoid having to drain the tank again if you pre-attach them to some bits of rock (lava rock works well) to anchor them down, and just place them in position - or wedge them into gaps you have left for them.

For the other plants that require planting in the substrate, you should be good to just plant them straight in where you want them, as soon as you receive them.

Once everything is in, you can then set you lights to whatever your target output and photoperiod.


----------



## Wookii (18 Mar 2021)

dw1305 said:


> I know @Wookii is a "Frogbit whisperer" and has done wonders with the poor plants he got <"from a fairly dodgy supplier">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



lol Darrel - I think the fact that those giant frogbit got that way in the tank I do virtually nothing to from one month to the next says more about the quality of the Frogbit supplied than my whispering skills 😂


----------



## Kogre (19 Mar 2021)

I ordered Vallisneria off of ebay yesterday and the delivery date was towards the tail end of next week.  They turned up this morning so I ended up just getting them into the tank.
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




There were some really awkward places around the pieces of wood on the right but I managed to get it all in.  I had originally graduated the height with the smaller pieces being on the right but as a few went rogue after I filled the tank again, I decided to plant them on the flanks which was the easiest to get to.  A little is also creeping under the branch and I don't like that, but I realise it'll be planted in front of hopefully in a weeks time so that'll become a lot less visible.

I had forgotten to dechlorinate before turning my filters back on (I normally do this prior to turning the taps on to refill).  Oops. 🤫


----------



## Wookii (19 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> I ordered Vallisneria off of ebay yesterday and the delivery date was towards the tail end of next week.  They turned up this morning so I ended up just getting them into the tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Kogre said:


> I had forgotten to dechlorinate before turning my filters back on (I normally do this prior to turning the taps on to refill).  Oops. 🤫



Nice one! It looks good already - I do like a grassy back drop to a tank! Here's an ADA one I really like:




Where have the spray bars gone though?

You could really do with those return pipes being all the way down to the substrate - it'll help draw settling detritus into your filter and also circulate water to the substrate level. Once of the challenges you're going to have with such a deep tank is getting flow right down to the bottom of it.



Kogre said:


> I had forgotten to dechlorinate before turning my filters back on (I normally do this prior to turning the taps on to refill).  Oops. 🤫



You should be alright as long as you added some dechlorinator for the tank volume, straight away.


----------



## Courtneybst (19 Mar 2021)

I'm a sucker for a wall of vallisneria, it's so pleasing to the eye!

I've noticed that eBay have extended their delivery estimates significantly (I think to cover courier delays due to covid). 9/10 times it comes much before the estimate as the delivery rates are pretty much back to normal.


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## Kogre (19 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Where have the spray bars gone though?
> 
> You could really do with those return pipes being all the way down to the substrate - it'll help draw settling detritus into your filter and also circulate water to the substrate level. Once of the challenges you're going to have with such a deep tank is getting flow right down to the bottom of it.


I've still got them, but I really didn't like the look of them.  These return pipes are as low as they'll go.  I think the Oase ones had around an additional 3 inches of depth over the new stainless steel ones.

That said, I have been considering putting the spraybars back, one I'll need to cut a little off to have on the left wall facing the right side, and have the other one on the right side doing what it was originally doing pushing from back to front.  I really don't like the bits that connect the inlets and outlets to the pipes though so I might just stick with these until boredom sets in and I revert back.

I guess this is where a powerhead of sorts comes into play either an AI Nero or something else.  My budgets blown now for the next 6 weeks though.


----------



## Kogre (19 Mar 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> I'm a sucker for a wall of vallisneria, it's so pleasing to the eye!


Yeah same here.  I can't wait for it to grow in a bit.  Since planting I've had three plantlets uproot.  I don't want to get my hands wet again so I'll let them float around for now until I do my next water change, which might even be when the next batch of plants arrive.


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## Wookii (19 Mar 2021)

Having them both on the rear wall shooting at the front glass is pretty well regarded as the best distribution option if can cope with the aesthetic. That said, I keep forgetting your tank is low tech, so the distribution is a little les critical.


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## Kogre (19 Mar 2021)

Wookii said:


> Having them both on the rear wall shooting at the front glass is pretty well regarded as the best distribution option if can cope with the aesthetic. That said, I keep forgetting your tank is low tech, so the distribution is a little les critical.


I can see it already, in a couple of weeks when I'm crying about algae with my tail between my legs changing the in/outlets back to their original ugly forms.  🤣🤣

By the way that video you linked, that scape was fantastic!


----------



## Kogre (21 Mar 2021)

There seems to be some yellowing leaves and tips that look to be melting. Is this normal and just the plants adapting or am I doing something wrong?

The lights are on for 8 hours a day at 25% intensity, and I'm using 20ml of the TNC Complete a day (to get to around the recommended 2* suggested dose on the bottle).


----------



## Courtneybst (21 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> View attachment 165241
> 
> There seems to be some yellowing leaves and tips that look to be melting. Is this normal and just the plants adapting or am I doing something wrong?
> 
> The lights are on for 8 hours a day at 25% intensity, and I'm using 20ml of the TNC Complete a day (to get to around the recommended 2* suggested dose on the bottle).



It's hard to tell as it could be many things but I think it's early days. Melt will occur regardless. I didn't start fertilising my setup until about a week after setup. I figured if they've just been moved, it's unlikely they're going full pelt on the fertilisers.

How's the rest of your parameters? Temperature, nitrates/nitrites/ammonia, flow etc.


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## Kogre (21 Mar 2021)

Temperature is at 26 degrees. Ammonia is at 1ppm (I upped this since the water change when I planted these as it was 0 ammonia, 0 readable nitrites and negligible nitrates), nitrites is at around 1ppm and nitrates is around 15ppm. Still a ways to go but it looks like the factory has started producing nitrates so it shouldn't be long now.

I'd guessed this may be a patience thing and I may just need to suck it up and wait it out.

Just a thought but I probably haven't helped running an airstone since planting these...


----------



## Karmicnull (21 Mar 2021)

26 degrees is pretty high. Which fish is driving that?  The lower the better as far as most plants are concerned!


----------



## Courtneybst (21 Mar 2021)

Yeah I agree definitely lower temp. I run mine between 23-25. Usually around 24 for the longest time.

What's the purpose of the air stone?


----------



## Kogre (21 Mar 2021)

The temperature was to assist in the "cycling". I read that having higher temperatures could assist in the development of the bacteria colonies here.

This same article suggests keeping the water oxygenated, which is why I had the airstone on.

I'm happy to lower temperatures if it helps. In fact I'll go do that now.

The question about flow was a good one. Whilst changing the temperature I noticed the pipe from the outlet on the right filter was crimped. I've straightened it out and now I can see the floaters moving around the surface and the val seems to be swaying gently, which is more than was happening earlier. I have two Oase Biomaster Thermo 850 cannisters on this. I might change the inlet/outlet back to the ones that came with the filter for better water movement as the stainless steel ones look pretty but don't seem to be as efficient at turning water over as the ones that came with the cannisters.


----------



## dw1305 (21 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> could assist in the development of the bacteria colonies here.


<"That article was written in 2010"> and doesn't reflect <"what actually happens in aquarium filters">. Have a look at our thread, <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">, it is a long read, but I hope you'll find it interesting.


Kogre said:


> nitrites is at around 1ppm and nitrates is around 15ppm. Still a ways to go but it looks like the factory has started producing nitrates so it shouldn't be long now.


Same really, nitrification doesn't work in a <"linear fashion like this">, and there are also issues with  the <"measurement of nitrate (NO3-)">.


Kogre said:


> Ammonia is at 1ppm (I upped this since the water change when I planted these as it was 0 ammonia, 0 readable nitrites and negligible nitrates)


I don't understand this bit. Are you adding ammonia to the tank?  and if you are, why are you? Just let the <"plants grow in">, it is all <"you need to do">.


Kogre said:


> Just a thought but I probably haven't helped running an airstone since planting these...





Kogre said:


> This same article suggests keeping the water oxygenated...


Keep the air-stone. You definitely need <"lots of oxygen">, nitrification is an <"oxygen intensive process">. This is one of the major reasons why <"plant/microbe nitrification"> is more efficient than "microbe only" nitrification, plants are <"massively net oxygen producers">.


Kogre said:


> The lights are on for 8 hours a day at 25% intensity


I'd definitely turn the light intensity up, 25% may be fine, but we don't know and by having greater light intensity you take lack of light out of the equation.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Kogre (21 Mar 2021)

Thank you for the reply, Darrel.

My aquatic soil substrate has stopped leeching ammonia which is why I added it from a bottle. If this is not advisable I'll stop. I'm just worried that when the day finally comes for me to add livestock to this aquarium, it won't be adequately equipped to deal with any bioload. I'm a worrier, so perhaps I'm overthinking this.

I've increased intensity of my lighting to 40% from tomorrow. I think that might be too high as these AI Prime HDs run really bright, at least to a human eye. My tank is 30" tall though so perhaps it needs it. Just seems like a lot for Val and floaters while I wait to receive my shipment of plants.

I've changed a few variables here out of panic and it might have been that I just needed to let everything run its course. Adding the ammonia, lowering the temperature and increasing the brightness. Also, as stated earlier, I'm still considering changing the inlets and outlets back to the original ones for better flow.

I wonder what sort of 💩 show I'm in for this week.


----------



## Karmicnull (22 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> I'm just worried that when the day finally comes for me to add livestock to this aquarium, it won't be adequately equipped to deal with any bioload


Plants are a brilliant supplement to a filter to help handle bioload.  To minimise the worry give your tank plenty of time to mature, and add the fish a few at a time, giving your ecosystem a could of weeks to adapt between each addition.  Adding ammonia is a substitute of debatable merit for waiting for your tank to be good and ready in its own time.


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## dw1305 (22 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> My aquatic soil substrate has stopped leeching ammonia which is why I added it from a bottle.


I know it is difficult, because all the advice you read on forums (and get from LFS)  talks about ammonia, bacteria and cycling, but <"none of it is true">.

It is a bit like asking _how you get from Bath to London?_ and then everybody advises you that you need to make sure your horse is well fed before you leave, and that you must be beware of Highway Men at the turnpike. They may once have been relevant, but they definitely aren't <"the factors that matter"> now.


Kogre said:


> If this is not advisable I'll stop. I'm just worried that when the day finally comes for me to add livestock to this aquarium, it won't be adequately equipped to deal with any bioload.  I'm a worrier, so perhaps I'm overthinking this.


Just stop adding any ammonia. You need plenty of oxygen and grown in plants, you don't need anything else.

I'm a worrier as well, it is natural, I'm also pretty <"risk adverse"> and we have a <"duty of care over the livestock we keep">.  My advice is <"_plants and time_"> because I believe that this is the approach that is best for your fish and gives you the maximum probability of success.

cheers Darrel


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## Wookii (22 Mar 2021)

@Kogre - seriously mate, just chuck that ammonia bottle in the bin and be done with it. Though aquatic plants often melt when they experience changes in parameters, it's more than possible your 1ppm of ammonia addition is causing the melt - it has no place in a planted tank.

As others have advised bring your temperature down. I'd recommend 22-23 degrees C personally - the lower the temperature, the more oxygen and CO2 can be dissolved in the water column, and you need to maximise both - the airstone will help with this also as Darrel points out, given you are low tech you don't have to worry about off-gassing CO2, quite the opposite, you need to maximise gas exchange with your deep tank.

Finally just be cautious with your lights. I know Darrel has suggested you increase them, and I wouldn't want to disagree with him as he is the planted tank Sensei - but the Primes are incredibly bright lights, and you have four of them, and currently have very low plant mass, so if you want to dodge the algae bullet, maybe increase to your 40% target slowly and observe results as you go.


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## Wookii (22 Mar 2021)

dw1305 said:


> . . .you need to make sure your horse is well fed before you leave, and that you must be beware of Highway Men at the turnpike. . . .



Never a truer word said Darrel! You really ought to have that as your forum signature! 🤣


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## Kogre (22 Mar 2021)

Thanks for the helpful response @Karmicnull and @dw1305 I'll take it on board and do further reading and I guess chill the eff out a bit.

After having read some of the linked posts I now realise how grossly misinformed I (along with many others apparently) have been about a great number of things.  Thanks for all the useful links, Darrel.  I'll plant away and just watch everything grow in before adding livestock, as was suggested earlier by @Wookii also.

I've put my spraybar and original intlet back on the left filter for better water movement.  I'll do the right cannister either later today or tomorrow.

I'm really excited for the plants to arrive and get cracking with planting it all in.  Words I never thought I would ever say.

Edit:  @Wookii thank you for your response mate.  Based on what you've said, I'll chuck the ammonia away.  I'll also err on the side of caution with the power on the lights for now, the program has just come on and I've set them to 30%.


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## dw1305 (22 Mar 2021)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> I wouldn't want to disagree with him as he is the planted tank Sensei - but the Primes are incredibly bright lights, and you have four of them, and currently have very low plant mass, so if you want to dodge the algae bullet, maybe increase to your 40% target slowly


I've never seen an AI Prime "in the flesh" so @Wookii is much more likely than me to be correct. If they look bright at 25%? Then they probably are


Kogre said:


> I'll plant away and just watch everything grow in before adding livestock, as was suggested earlier by @Wookii also.


Plant what you have got and then observe how the plants are getting on. I like a floating plant because, it isn't ever CO2 limited.  Have a look at <"The scientific background to the "Leaf Colour Chart">.

I know that "watch the plants" doesn't seem very scientific, compared to water testing etc., but it is an <"approach taken by a lot of scientists">.


Kogre said:


> I now realise how grossly misinformed I (along with many others apparently) have been about a great number of things


<"Cycling has its own mythology">, a lot of the vendors of these products are, at best, <"disingenuous about what their products contain and how they function">. They are also pretty keen to <"shoot the messenger">.


dw1305 said:


> ......... I may have a jaundiced view, but look on the companies that sell these products as a bit like payday lenders, people go to them in their hour of need, and then they keep on using the service. There is no money to be made in KISS solutions and telling people that growing plants and time are all you need, add in a soil substrate and rain-water and you have a virtually free recipe for having a successful tank. However if you can keep peoples tanks continually teetering on the brink of disaster you can carry on selling them "pH buffers" etc.............


cheers Darrel


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## Kogre (22 Mar 2021)

@Wookii was kind enough to send me some frogbit and red root floaters.  Those came on Thursday, and a majority of them were a vivid green.

Since putting them in my tank, some of the frogbit has yellowed, the majority has stayed qreen but a lot of the red root floaters have just parted ways with their roots.  The roots have gotten pretty long on some of the frogbit (+3 inches) and I can see some baby plants coming through from a couple.


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## Wookii (22 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> @Wookii was kind enough to send me some frogbit and red root floaters.  Those came on Thursday, and a majority of them were a vivid green.
> 
> Since putting them in my tank, some of the frogbit has yellowed, the majority has stayed qreen but a lot of the red root floaters have just parted ways with their roots.  The roots have gotten pretty long on some of the frogbit (+3 inches) and I can see some baby plants coming through from a couple.



I trimmed the roots on the Frogbit for easier shipping, but they always grow back, and can end up very long.

The were out of my high tech tank, so may need to do some transitioning to your water parameters - but they are all pretty resilient plants and providing you dose a decent amount of ferts (and get rid of that ammonia ), they should reward you with quite considerable growth due to their easy access to unlimited CO2.

Just pinch off any damaged or yellowing leaves and it will encourage the plants to put out new growth.

Incidentally I’ve never managed to get the red root floaters to actually go red, beyond a gentle reddening of the roots, and some red to the edges of the leaves - but nothing like the solid red leaves you see in images on the net. I’ve read that the darker colouration occurs under strong light, But despite mine being directly under quite considerable light, they still haven’t ‘turned’.


----------



## Kogre (22 Mar 2021)

I promise, the ammonia has been trashed. It was a tough choice but it had to be done. The repeated advice would have made me the fool (or had already) to dose my aquarium with ammonia any further.


Regarding the red root floaters, I'll give 'em a good whipping and give it a go, providing they survive to the point of planting the tank out.


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## Wookii (23 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> I promise, the ammonia has been trashed. It was a tough choice but it had to be done. The repeated advice would have made me the fool (or had already) to dose my aquarium with ammonia any further.
> 
> 
> Regarding the red root floaters, I'll give 'em a good whipping and give it a go, providing they survive to the point of planting the tank out.



If they don't I can always send you some more. I need to thin them out on my low tech, they are now starting to grow up and out of the tank!


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## Kogre (28 Mar 2021)

The vallisneria is looking better.

I added a few crypts and moss. I ended up getting fed up with reaching into the tank and fiddling around with the thread so I just started using liberally large patches of it where I could easily reach.

I changed the inlets and outlets back to the original ones. I also used a spare intake pipe, cut it in half and then used 16/22 hose to add the pipe to the bottom of the intake, so I'm now pretty close to the bottom of the tank. I need to fiddle around with the outlet on the right to get it level, my OCD won't let me leave it as crooked as it is. I should probably angle them upwards too for better surface agitation. Right now there is little next to none.

Oh, and I have snails in there. 😕


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## Wookii (28 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Oh, and I have snails in there. 😕


That’s a good thing!


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## Kogre (29 Mar 2021)

I'm not sure about things when it comes to snails but some of these look like adults already and laying eggs everywhere. I had purchased some Nerites and before they turned up and after planting the vallesneria, I must have had a few ramshorns on them and possibly pond snails. The ramshorns are doing a great job of destroying the mold on the wood but are pooping everywhere and also laying eggs everywhere. Some of these must have hatched as I have baby snails zipping about the tank with semi translucent shells, but some of these look like they are a different shaped shell and moving differently, which is why I think I might also have picked up some pond snails... possibly on the moss or crypts.

Anyway, other than the poop the ramshorns are putting out (it's a lot), it's looking good. The poop is beginning to have put me off using a fine silver sand cap.

I think my shrimp arrive tomorrow. That's unfortunate as I had hoped for the tank to be majorly planted before putting them into the tank. I'm hoping the plants turn up before Good Friday this week. I have a vaccine jab on Wednesday and can't imagine feeling like doing much of anything until after I've recovered if it knocks me for six like it did a few of my colleagues and friends.

I'm now also looking at the spraybars. I don't like the gap between the two on either side. I might use another length of pipe to attach to the existing bars just for an extension on both sides and to eliminate any dead/minimal flow areas. After having seen reviews of the filter I have (Oase Biomaster 850 Thermo) I may decide to drill the prefilter with a thicker pipe for better flow. I'll add the spraybars first though, that's easily reversed and is cheap to do. I say I will, I actually mean I might...

I ended up buying a bit of water sprite from proshrimp and chucking it in to float. The issue with my two portions I had was that where the plant (despite looking healthy) met the rock wool, it turned black like it was rotting so just sort of broke away from the rock wool. Some root structure survived and is in my tank along with the rest of whatever survived, but a majority of the root structure ended up in the bin with the rock wool.😕 Gutted.


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## John q (29 Mar 2021)

I got some water sprite from same vendor about 2 weeks ago, plants were healthy, roots were rotten. I just planted the healthy tops and they are putting out new growth and seem to be doing well.


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## Kogre (29 Mar 2021)

Thank you for the feedback about it mate.

I've just floated all of mine to make life easier for me not to get algae 🤣 If I end up with space once it's all planted I'll definitely plant the sprite.

Your post gives me reassurance that the water sprite will survive, so I appreciate it. 🙂


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## Kogre (29 Mar 2021)

The tank living up to its name under moonlight.


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## Kogre (30 Mar 2021)

Just had a nice chat with Vera from Birstall who gave me the awesome news of my plants being on the way to arrive with me tomorrow. I hope they arrive before I have to go out!

I had my shrimp arrive this morning. I drip acclimated them for almost 2 hours and put them into the tank. They swam around for the first 10 minutes and then settled on the moss/substrate. Now most of them seem to be swimming around which I read was a sign of stress. I've tested the water and everything is coming up zeroes. Perhaps I just need to be patient for them to get settled in...


----------



## Courtneybst (30 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> Just had a nice chat with Vera from Birstall who gave me the awesome news of my plants being on the way to arrive with me tomorrow. I hope they arrive before I have to go out!
> 
> I had my shrimp arrive this morning. I drip acclimated them for almost 2 hours and put them into the tank. They swam around for the first 10 minutes and then settled on the moss/substrate. Now most of them seem to be swimming around which I read was a sign of stress. I've tested the water and everything is coming up zeroes. Perhaps I just need to be patient for them to get settled in...


Exciting!!! Better make yourself some scaping food in advance lol.

My Amano shrimp swam around like crazy for around 3 days, they actually looked like they were trying to escape. All settled now.


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## Wookii (30 Mar 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> they actually looked like they were trying to escape.


. . . and they will given half a chance! I found a crispy one a couple of months ago in the bathroom. It’d crawled from the tank in my sons room, across the landing, across the bathroom, and shuffled off its mortal coil behind the sink!


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## Kogre (31 Mar 2021)

Most of the plants have turned up. Guess what I'll be doing this evening?


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## Wookii (31 Mar 2021)

Kogre said:


> View attachment 166095
> Most of the plants have turned up. Guess what I'll be doing this evening?



That's a reassuring large box!! Get yer sleeves rolled up!


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## Kogre (31 Mar 2021)

Most of the plants are in, just the foreground that needs to be planted. 





There's one Anubias that is perling like crazy. You can see it just off center in that picture.

The ferns and Anubias were just jammed into gaps, some gaps were barely gaps at all. I used thread to stick one piece down. I'll keep an eye on it but hopefully they stay in place and attach.

I've cancelled the trident and a sword (can't recall which, I'll look it up later) as I have LOADS of plants left and will barely have room for those that hadn't arrived.

Just off right is a bland looking gap. That's where the ludwigia super red will grow in eventually.

It's taken me almost 8 years to get to this point and I must say I feel rather proud and happy. Both my sons were awestruck when they saw it.


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## Kogre (1 Apr 2021)

I had completely forgotten I had anubias caladiifolia, it was in the box tucked away under all the s repens.  I have to say my favourite plant out of the lot has to be the anubias nana, just love the leaf shape.

Cracked on with the planting today and finally finished.  I'm not happy with the way the front right looks with the s repens, but I guess I can try trimming it down.  I trimmed a few and planted them amongst the sag in the middle and kept the longer stems for the right.  I could have trimmed them more (I should have) and packed them in more densely, but it looks okay for now.  Ultimately, I'm just glad it's over and done with.  There is some prime real estate I've missed out on using (back left fallen branch) but that'll have to wait for another occasion.  For now I'm done with planting.

I had a few left over plants.  Both echinodorus, one is reni and five are bleherae.

I'm not sure how but during refilling, I saw some shrimp in the outlet of the filter on the right.  They couldn't have gotten through the inlet, it has a prefilter of course sponge inside it and they're simply too big to get sucked through the tiny slits.  I did notice yesterday that there were only about four tops that I could see at any given time.  I guess I must have stopped the filter and dropped the water level _after_, so they probably must have swam into the holes on the spraybar and gotten stuck.  This means they spent around 16-20 hours in there with it on.  They seemed happy enough when I tipped them into the tank.








Oh and I can't tell if the snails are having an orgy.


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## Wookii (1 Apr 2021)

Looking great already! Looking forward to seeing it grow in. Keep up with the dosing and water changes now, and let it start growing in.



Kogre said:


> Oh and I can't tell if the snails are having an orgy.



More than likely 😂


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## Wookii (1 Apr 2021)

I know you’ve just put the remaining plants up for sale, but seriously I’d just stick them in there.

Put the bleherae on the left in front of the filter intake, and the reni as a nice feature plant on the right.


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## Courtneybst (1 Apr 2021)

Wookii said:


> I know you’ve just put the remaining plants up for sale, but seriously I’d just stick them in there.
> 
> Put the bleherae on the left in front of the filter intake, and the renu as a nice feature plant on the right.


I'd agree


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## Kogre (1 Apr 2021)

Bah! I just saw these posts and Gill has called dibs already.

The substrate is pretty low on the corners and planting the bleherae took way too many tries even where there was depth. I'm leaning towards placing stem plants, not sure which yet, either another ludwigia but green or a hygrophila.


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## Kogre (12 Apr 2021)

Perhaps premature but I have livestock in the tank now.  I have 30 Rummy Nosed Tetras and 6 Apistogramma Cacatuoides ((2 males and 4 females) with 2 additional ones of a different colour strain on the way).  Right about now I'm thinking stocking wise, this is almost already complete.  I may get some Congo Tetra and Pearl Gourami's as a finisher, but I don't think I need to lean towards my original stocking ideas at all.

Anyway I've seen some interesting things in the last few weeks, both positive and negative.

I've got signs of hair algea in certain spots that are darker than others.  I expected algea anyway and thankfully I see it on bucephalandra that's on a spot of lava rock so is easily removed and cleaned.

The Sagittaria subulata is going crazy in places.  Leaves are looking more like curved vallesneria than sagittaria because of the length.  This might be because of where the fert caps were placed.

I'm seeing the S Repens doing really well with healthy leaves (still early days, I know) but I'm seeing roots growing from the stems themselves.  Almost as if there isn't enough nutrition in the substrate?  (There might not be, most of these have been planted in sand with Tropica fert capsules dotted around the place.)  Or the stems have grown too long?  Either way I'm seeing new leaves on most of these plants.

The Anubias Nana is doing incredibly well.  One has flowered (another one might have but I think I choked out the flowering part with string).  There are visible signs of new growth, as slow as it might be.

Looking and comparing pictures from initial planting to now, it looks as though the Cryptocoryne is doing incredibly well, reaching up for the light, or extending shadowed leaves towards the direction of light.

At this stage I'm dosing 35ml of the TNC Complete every day and have been for about a week.

The Apisto's are showing signs of territory domination, which is nice to see.  As I only had two males in here, I think it became unfair on the beta male which is why I ordered two additional Super Reds, I requested one as a male and the other as a female but at this stage I don't mind if they both turn up as males so the aggression can be diffused amongst the lot, instead of being singularly homed by the current alpha to the only beta.  Really beautiful fish to watch.

One other thing is that I'm not seeing the Apisto's feed.  I've called the person who I bought these from and they said they fed them pellets and flake.  I've tried both, tubifex worms and have dried blood worm pellets on the way.  They seem to casually graze and ignore any food that passes them by.  I might starve the fish for a couple of days before dropping in their next meal.  The RNT are eating like crazy.  They'll eat anything and even hang out at the substrate to graze if anything makes it past them.  I'm hoping they're not outcompeting the Apisto's, but from what I've seen suggests otherwise.


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## Kogre (20 Apr 2021)

Dosing has been upped to 40ml/day.  I think I'll need to know the equivelant in the dry salts I'd need to make up the same-ish when I eventually switch.  Lighting has also been increased to 50% for about a week.  I don't remember doing this so I must have been innebriated.  I'll keep an eye on things and tone it down if I see evidence of unsightly algae.  I've been removing any signs of hair algae I see as and when I see it.  I say hair algae but it just grows as one long strand so I'm not 100% sure of what it actually is.  Perhaps a type of hair algae?  I dunno.

I ended up trimming the Staurogyne Repens on the right and replanting the trimmings across the front of the tank, making it more dense on the right where I may have missed a few spots (but still left some gaps for the Apisto's to swim through).  It's looking better in that now from the right side the Ludwigia Sp Red is visible (just barely) and it's growing a nice shade of a greeny-orange at the moment.  The top leaves are not rounded like when I planted it so it looks like conversion has been taking place, I've seen loads of small rounded leaves with green tops and red bottoms floating around that I've removed, and they've grown about 4 inches/10cm since they were planted.

I had a rogue Anubias Caladiifolia that became dislodged from the right side where I had placed them between two rocks.  I ended up moving this to a gap in the wood in the centre next to some Anubias Nana.  The Caladiifolia have lovely striped texture on their (pretty big) leaves, so it's a nice contrast with the leaf shape, size and texture being different.

I also had a rogue Bucephelandra that fell off one of the branches, I've moved it to the left just behind the Anubias on the log, barely noticeable but a nice detail.

The Sagittaria Subulata is just going bonkers.  I don't see any runners yet but the leaves are REALLY getting to some ridiculous lengths, where I'm beginning to ask myself whether I'd planted a rosette type Vallisneria that probably doesn't exist 

Speaking of, I've got a couple of long bright leaves of Vallisneria that are almost reaching up to the height of the outlets.  I'm hoping many more get to this height.  I've also seen runners, one which is still small, and another that began growing inside the hollow where I expect it may die due to lack of light.

Everything else doesn't seem to be doing much.  The Echinodorus Bleheri that had a runner extending upwards (on the right) has had the runner grow roots and the leaves that were initially tiny are growing.  Not sure whether I should plant it, cut it and plant it or just leave it for now.  The Reni seems to be doing their thing at their own pace.  Lovely plants I must say.

I have some Hygrophila Siamensis 53B on the way at some stage.  I'll have to remove some hardscape to plant it but I want to cover the outlets with a bushy stem plant, and there is a gap just off middle that would benefit by having something planted as right you can see where I used expanding foam to join a couple of pieces of wood together.

The moss seems to be doing well.  I think it needs a trim to keep growth compact as it's started to reach.  I'll probably do this with a large net the next time the water level is halfway down and place the trimmings elsewhere.

I thought all but two of my shrimp had died as I'd not seen them for a few weeks.  I managed to count 11 that were out and visible yesterday, so was chuffed they've not expensive been Apisto food.  I've also seen quite a lot of their shed.  Quite strange to see the first time I saw it, I thought it was a dead shrimp on the filter inlet but then saw a few more and have taken them out to see what it was and it looks like a few of them at least are growing quite nicely.




I'll take a few more detail photos and upload them at some stage.


----------



## Wookii (20 Apr 2021)

Looking great!! 

Don't worry about planting stem plants in front of the filter inlets - as long as the leaves don't physically stick to the inlet grating, they won't affect the flow, and its actually beneficial for the plant, as it means it constantly has fresh water flowing past it.

Also, don't worry about some plants taking their time to get going. You often find with a tank things go very slowly for some time, and then just seem to hit a certain level of maturity (usually around the 3-4 month mark in my experience) and growth explodes. I imagine you'll find that with your Vallis - it'll suddenly just take off at some point and throw leaves to the surface, and runners everywhere.

On the dry salts, all you'll need to do is mix up as per the instructions (if you buy them from APFUK) and then just choose what proportion of the standard 10ml/50L dose to apply to your tank.


----------



## Kogre (20 Apr 2021)

Yes, I have APFUK dry salts.  I just need it clarified, what did you mean choose what proportion of the standard dose to apply?  You mean the standard dose would be overkill for my low tech system because the standard dose is aimed towards CO2 injected systems so I'd need to use a fraction of the suggested amount?

Thanks once again for your response as always.


----------



## dw1305 (20 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> Yes, I have APFUK dry salts. I just need it clarified, what did you mean choose what proportion of the standard dose to apply? You mean the standard dose would be overkill for my low tech system because the standard dose is aimed towards CO2 injected systems so I'd need to use a fraction of the suggested amount?


Yes, that is the one. If you don't add CO2, your submerged plants will be CO2 limited.  I'd try 50% of EI and see how you get on, over time you may find even that is too much (if the conductivity constantly creeps up) and you can reduce that down further.

Carbon is the nutrient that need most of and also <"Liebig's limiting nutrient">.  If you have good circulation the level of CO2 in the water low tech. is going to be somewhere in the 1 - 3 ppm range, rather than the 30 ppm indicated by a yellow drop checker.

After that it is really down to how fast you want your plants to grow, and the plants you have. I run my tanks <"nutrient depleted">, but I only use <"a limited palette"> of <"difficult to kill, slow growing plants"> and one or more floating plants (not CO2 limited) as my <"nutrient indicator"> and spare biofiltration capacity.  I don't add fertiliser by rote, I just <"add some when I think the tank needs it">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Wookii (20 Apr 2021)

Kogre said:


> Yes, I have APFUK dry salts.  I just need it clarified, what did you mean choose what proportion of the standard dose to apply?  You mean the standard dose would be overkill for my low tech system because the standard dose is aimed towards CO2 injected systems so I'd need to use a fraction of the suggested amount?
> 
> Thanks once again for your response as always.



Yes, exactly that. EI is designed to make nutrients non-limiting in a CO2 injected tank. I dose at approximately 1/3 EI on my low tech tank currently, but I have slower growers than yours, so the 50% as Darrel suggests might be a good idea.

At the end of the day, as long as you are doing your weekly 50% water change every week, having excess nutrients cause no issues in the quantities we are discussing, so better to have slightly too much than too little in my book - one less thing to think about.


----------



## Kogre (20 Apr 2021)

Excellent, thank you both for your valued responses.


----------



## Kogre (22 Apr 2021)

The Hygrophila turned up yesterday, as did some Bucephalandra Theia Dark courtesy of @GHNelson so I cracked on with lowering the waterline down to about 40% and planting everything in.  I'm quite happy with the Hygrophila, a lot of it was longer than I had expected.  I used the longer stems on the left and shorter stems on the right to prevent it looking too artificial, with a few rogue ones in spaces that were begging to be planted into.  Overall, the planting itself looks shoddy to me.  It'll probably look better once it's grown in.  It's pretty tough reaching into the back corners of the tank, even from the sides, because of the glass supports for the (no longer present) condensation covers.  

The bucephalandra I stuck on the wood, either next to existing wavy green or in one place solely (where the wavey green had detached from earlier).  I still have space that is begging for more narrow leaf java fern, but I want to wait for the Ludwigia to reach a decent height before I buy more plants that could potentially cast shadows over the it.  Otherwise, I'm 80% happy with it.


----------



## Courtneybst (22 Apr 2021)

Really like how this is developing, great work!


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## Wookii (22 Apr 2021)

I like it a lot. I think the Hygro has made a big improvement in giving some added depth perception and filling out those empty corners, and once its grown in, it will add some real depth of background. It's nicely heavily planted now, so you should pat yourself on the back, and sit back, relax, and enjoy it!


----------



## shangman (22 Apr 2021)

I don't think it looks shoddy at all! It already looks lush and lovely, I really like all the shades of green you have and the mix of textures and sizes of leaves, looking very luscious already.

Would love to see some closeups of your lovely apistos amongst the foliage 👀


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## Kogre (22 Apr 2021)

Thank you all for your responses.  I'm also looking forward to just watching it grow in and only getting my hands wet when conducting maintenance.

So, a little surprise while trying to capture pictures of the apisto's.  They've bred!  It explains why there was a female in there from hell, she had darkened quite a lot and was like a cruise missile, darting around and nipping anything that came close to the center of the tank.  I thought this was for territory, but suspected her unusual behaviour (when compared to the rest of the females at least) was down to her being protective possibly.  And turns out she has some little free swimmers with her.  I first noticed a single one swimming around by itself.  I got all excited.  When the mother turned up and shot back to the back center of the tank, I cheered as soon as I saw them.

A few pictures/video of the apito's and the first fry I saw here:  Creepy Hollow


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## shangman (22 Apr 2021)

Gorgeous!!! 😍😍😍 Now you really know you're doing things right  They're really beautiful fab fish, the fins on those males are just stunning, like long flower petals, I bet they're amazing when they flare up.

It's really lovely to see a nice community of apistos in a big tank, looking forward to seeing more of their exploits and dynamics! Are you going to give the fry some help or just see what happens? In a tank like this I'm sure you'll get a few fry growing up either way.


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## Kogre (22 Apr 2021)

Thanks @shangman.  I have another male in there but he's younger/smaller and is a "double red" but looks more like a double orange to me.  Perhaps he'll colour up as he matures.

Yes, when they flare up they do look amazing.  There is one bossy male (I'm guessing the dad), a second orange flash and my favourite is the youngest, but he gets picked on quite a bit (picture below).  I've seen his tail split all the way along which was horrible to see.  He seems to be eating and hiding as much as he can when not getting his butt kicked, so once he grows out hopefully he'll hold his own at least against at least the smaller females that are knocking him about at the moment.





I have a holding box but want to see how this plays out in the tank itself.  I've been feeding BBS every few days anyway (trying to condition the/a female) and now I have reason to continue to do so.  I'm guessing they'll all either be one gender or another and I don't really want that, but I don't mind ultimately.  Whatever survives to maturity will be a nice addition to the community.  Good thing I didn't run out and buy those pearl gourami's straight away.


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## shangman (23 Apr 2021)

He's a cutie! I'm sure he'll grow up big and glorious with amazing stained glass fins, whether he's orange or red.

I think it's interesting to see how the fry do in a tank alone, to me the ideal tank is one where the apistos can raise a few fry themselves without our extra intervention, but idk if that's really hard. Will be eagerly following your tank to see how it goes!
 What temperature do you keep them at? I think most of my baby apistos are males, even though I kept them at the temp where you're meant to get a 50/50 split. I think I've got a few females, but less than I thought at first lol, it's so hard to tell when they're tiny!!


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## Kogre (23 Apr 2021)

It bugs the mother when I have my phone against the glass so she comes and gives me a sneaky display of aggression.

Hey @shangman they're kept at 24 degrees.  I'll keep you posted with updates.  At the moment the fry will be going a couple of days as I get a couple of batches of BBS going.  I'm sure they'll be fine.  I've seen them swimming around with their mum and they don't seem weak or anything.

I noticed the double red male jump in twice and get a mouthful of fry a couple of times yesterday.  It wasn't nice to watch, but the mother did a good job to jump right on top of him and nip him away.  It was a well planned ambush too... I didn't see him and he darted in when the females back was turned.

The S Repens has started looking a little weak.  The leaves have holes in them and in some places, looks like they're melting.  I'm guessing this is a nutrient deficiency and I plan on sticking some Tetra Initial Sticks around the sand where I know there is no decent substrate.  I'd already done with with Tropica Nutrient Capsules but it doesn't look like it was enough, or placement wasn't as dense as it should have been.  Or perhaps I should just be patient and wait for the roots to reach the capsules?  I dunno.  Either way it's probably a good idea to get more in.  Can't do any harm.


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## dw1305 (23 Apr 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> they're kept at 24 degrees.


You may find you end up with potentially largely female fish in the fry. Sex differentiation in _Apistogramma_ <"is temperature dependent"> (just like Crocodiles), about 26 - 27oC gives you a ~ 50:50 mix of sexes in _A. cacatuoides_.  Warmer = more males, cooler more females.

It is the temperature in the period <"thirty days post spawning that defines sex">.

cheers Darrel


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## Kogre (23 Apr 2021)

Does that mean even though they have hatched and are free swimming, they can still change to males?


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## dw1305 (23 Apr 2021)

Hi all, 


Kogre said:


> Does that mean even though they have hatched and are free swimming, they can still change to males?


Potentially. I should say that while I often had broods that were both sexes on more than one occasion I ended with <"all of one sex"> for no apparent reason. 

cheers Darrel


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## Kogre (23 Apr 2021)

Thanks Darrel.

Also I have to apologise. The picture I showed of the mother wasn't the mother of the first brood. I have a second brood in there! One lives towards the rear of the left side and the other (the one I knew about) lives in the center rear. I thought it was the same one moving around the tank, just brighter yellows. Nope, different fish altogether.


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## Kogre (25 Apr 2021)

There's another female full to the brim with eggs that's been flirting with the alpha...


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## Kogre (1 May 2021)

I've not seen any additional fry, and chunky is still seemingly chunky.

The fry are bigger now, around 5-7mm.  It's pretty nice to see how dedicated the mothers are to keeping threats away.  The father comes along and tries to help but gets his face tail slapped away.  

I had 6 otocinclus delivered yesterday.  It's like they didn't miss a beat, they settled in the tank almost immediately after acclimation.  They even try to school with the tetra.  Sometimes when they inadvertently approach a mother and her brood, they'll get nipped at a bit, and they sort of dart around the same vicinity almost confused until they eventually do swim away.  A really nice addition to the tank.

The double red spends most of his time in hiding.  I've ordered a couple more that are adults to help spread the aggression.  

I had a few hygrophila pinnatifida delivered on Tuesday.  I left it to float for the most part until today (some is still floating while I figure out where best to place it).  I love the texture of the leaves of this plant and think its' addition to the tank is a welcome one.  I'm not committed with what I have done with it so will play around with a few ideas.

The swords seem to have found their footing, with some leaves changing texture/pattern and soaring towards the top (well... relatively soaring...).

The sag continues to explode everywhere, with runners shooting off and coming through.

I've just cleaned the pre-filter on both filters and replaced the floss.  I probably shouldn't leave it so long till I do it next time.  No excuse really considering how easy the pre-filters are on the Biomasters.

There are still places gagging for more narrow leaf java ferns.  I will order some in a few months.

Sorry for the schoolboy error of the reflection of light from under the curtain onto the radiator... this was not long after water change, hence the bubbles.  Seems more settled and clear now.


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## Kogre (3 May 2021)

I'm not sure if this is normal behaviour, and perhaps anyone who is informed can tell me if it is, but one of the females has burrowed a cave under a rock. I think she's priming to lay or may have already done so as she has been fighting with the mother that lives on the left for most of the day. Even watching them joust is interesting, they extend their jaws to make themselves look bigger and then just glance off one another.

I guess these may be related to geophagus so burrowing of sorts should be expected. I'd just never read anything about this kind of behaviour.


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## dw1305 (4 May 2021)

Hi all, 


Kogre said:


> but one of the females has burrowed a cave under a rock.


She didn't have a suitable cave (or didn't like the look of the ones you've provided). The like caves with a very narrow entrance, too small for the male to physically enter the cave and low down near the substrate so that they can block the hole up even further.  

I Like half coconuts, you can <"glue moss and ferns to them">. 

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (4 May 2021)

100% what @dw1305 said!

Another very aesthetically pleasing and practical option is seedpods, particularly the cariniana pods, because they have a very small opening that the motherfish can just fit in and block any other fish. My apistos spawned in pods, my female went around and checked them all daily before choosing a cariniana pod, and my male also liked to lounge in a large buddha pod sometimes lol. I got some from <blackwateruk.com>, but I went to Crowder's Aquatics a few weeks ago and they have loads <which you can see here>, including the cariniana ones. I also found that all the types of pods get quite hairy and covered in tiny tiny creatures that the very small fry would feed on which was useful too.


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## Wookii (4 May 2021)

Crowders do have an astounding selection of botanicals, not to mention hardscape, which you can see in their shop tour video here (45 seconds in):



It still boggles my mind that they don't have a website!

I may have to pop in there when we are eventually allowed to visit friends in Woking/Guildford.


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## Ian61 (4 May 2021)

Hello. Just re-read this thread from the start. Very enlightening and pertinent to my own new start up. Just shows how helpful this forum is.
One query. Do you have any sort of surface skimming?
I have just installed a skim-2 skimmer from APS having deliberated over other similar models versus skimming filter intake pipes. It appears to to be working excellently and great value for a tenner, and making more appreciative of this forum as it seemed to be the consensus recommendation. Pic shows it tucked away in the back corner.


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## Kogre (5 May 2021)

To be honest when I put the tank together I didn't expect or consider any breeding, so making caves wasn't something I planned or designed into putting the scape together.  The hollow itself is more of a lurking junction with numerous entrances and exits so that is serving its function in that respect.  I'm not even sure how the other females spawned.  They may also have done the same thing.  If that is what they choose to do and is something they're comfortable with, I might just leave it as it is.  Thank you for the insight though, it tells me I have yet another batch of fry incoming... I'm going to have to start laying traps to catch them as the tank will be over run with them otherwise.

@Wookii Wow just watching that video triggered me into wanting to buy more hardscape for another setup.  I'm fighting the urge for now... >_<

Hi @Ian61 thank you for taking the time to go through this journal, I appreciate it.  The skimmers I had were on stainless steel inlets that were far too short (but very aesthetically pleasing) to reach the lower depths of the aquarium so I ended up ditching them and going back to using the ones that came with the filter, only I ended up extending them to reach closer to the substrate using a spare pipe I bought.  When I didn't run an airstone, I noticed biofilm accumulation so I've started to run one 24/7 (for now) while I'm dumping baby brine shrimp into the tank as I also have the hatchery connected to an air pump and running anyway.  The airstone keeps the biofilm forming (at the very least, I'm not seeing it) as it breaks the surface when the bubbles pop.  I also have a ton of plants floating so skimming just meant more maintenance with removing stuck plants/decaying matter from the skimmers.  As yours looks to be easily removable and you don't appear to have floating plants, you won't face the same issues I did.


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## Kogre (5 May 2021)

I'd like to ask the community about the value of TDS meters.

I've been wondering whether it would be useful to baseline my tap and tank post water change, and monitor over the week to see whether I can see any trends to what is happening in the tank.

If there is value in this, are there any cheapish options out there that anyone can recommend or is it a case of you get what you pay for with more consistent and accurate readings from something pricier?

OR is it a waste of time and just something that will needlessly cause worry over nothing?


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## Wookii (5 May 2021)

Kogre said:


> I'd like to ask the community about the value of TDS meters.
> 
> I've been wondering whether it would be useful to baseline my tap and tank post water change, and monitor over the week to see whether I can see any trends to what is happening in the tank.
> 
> ...



I think its useful to have one, particularly when starting out or using RO water and the like. I have this one:

Amazon product

Though its gone up 50% in price since I bought it! 

That said, I've not really used it for a long time, and I think if you do large weekly water changes, you don't need to test regularly.


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## dw1305 (5 May 2021)

Hi all,


Kogre said:


> I'd like to ask the community about the value of TDS meters.
> 
> I've been wondering whether it would be useful to baseline my tap and tank post water change, and monitor over the week to see whether I can see any trends to what is happening in the tank.
> 
> ...


I think <"they are useful"> for giving a conductivity (TDS) <"datum range you can use a baseline">. The <"other advantage"> is that even a cheap low range meter (~£50) will give you an accurate reading and doesn't continually <"need re-calibrating">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Kogre (7 May 2021)

I saw that the first mother had "lost" her brood, with only two or three fry in the general vicinity wondering around aimlessly and trying to keep hidden.  Then I saw that the second mother had in fact somehow stolen the majority of the brood!   I can't tell from counting as there are far too many plants that hide them but I can tell from the size of the fry, the first mothers fry were a little larger now the second mother has a broad range of sizes, with some of them too large to be her own.

These fish have certainly not failed to amaze.


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## Hufsa (7 May 2021)

Kogre said:


> ..stolen the majority of the brood!
> 
> These fish have certainly not failed to amaze.


Yes this is not unheard of 😀
They sure are fascinating fish


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## shangman (7 May 2021)

You've got so much fascinating behaviour happening wow!!

I can't remember where I found it now, but somewhere online I read that new mother apistos sometimes steal/share babies, because the younger fry learn to read the signals from their mothers better from older fry (compared to on their own), so the young fry have better survival rates. You can tell us if it seems true!


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## Kogre (10 May 2021)

I added 30 Rosy Tetras.  They sometimes school with the Rummy Nose Tetras but it's nice to have some movement almost everywhere now.  They are pretty interesting to watch, with males dueling one another from time to time.  It was the bright red fins and white tips that got me.

Some of the larger/older fry have tried to go back across the tank to the other side.  The few that are seen get eaten.  For the most part the tetra leave them alone and seem more curious than anything.  Their mother has stood down from guarding the territory.  The few that have made it just fend for themselves hiding amongst the plants.  I'm not feeding BBS everyday like I was, more like every other day.  I could be wrong but I think they've started eating any food particles that come their way.  Some of the fry have tiny flecks of iridescence on their gills/sides but their bodies are mostly still clear.  I've seen some do the typical soil sifting.  The other mother is still doing well with her (extended) brood being guarded in the front left corner of the tank.

The largest female has gone into hiding.  She's the only female with iridescent facial markings.

The juvenile male double red has been eating well and his tail is almost completely recovered.  He's growing well and the other two double reds don't bat an eyelid at him.  The aggression seems to have mostly subsided in the tank, at least for now.

The two largest males that were added have settled in really well.  The larger of the two sometimes chases the other away but neither of them have chewed up tails or split fins.  The larger of the two has been christened Matt Damon.  Because this:





He has a large gob.  I'll see if I can get any decent pictures of him.


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## Kogre (10 May 2021)




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## Kogre (15 May 2021)

Just a few notes and observations this week...

The inlets were filthy and probably reducing flow overall due to the friction.  During this weeks water change I detached the inlets and outlets to both filters and cleaned them thoroughly.  This changed the colour of the pipework back to the original clear.

I also cleaned the pre filers.  These weren't so dirty as I'd cleaned them last week, but still worth going through the exercise during the water change.

I have bunches of amazon swords that are showing growth and sections/whole plants that aren't growing at all.  I don't think I'll change anything up just yet but will wait to see if the last plant shows signs or not, and if not I'll probably just do nothing anyway as there probably isn't anything I can do short of shoving more root tabs under the plant.

There are some pretty large fry now, only a handful mind, that are about up to a couple of centimeters long.  There are still a load that look like babies.  I will continue to feed BBS and microworms every day.

I noticed some hygrophila pinnatifida that had some staghorn algae over it.  I removed the affected leaves and tried to pull off the algae to understand the hold it takes... this was nigh on impossible without damaging the leaves.

It has taken hold on other spots closer to the middle of my tank where flow isn't so high.  I think I'll either need to rip off the affected leaves or ideally follow some spotting method others are doing so I don't lose plant mass/otherwise healthy leaves.

Overall I'm really happy with the plant growth.  The Ludwigia is coming through beautifully, albeit more orange than red, but still it is growing in pretty well.  Some of the younger cryptocorynes that I'd planted before the main plants turned up have started to push through which is nice to see.  A lot of these weren't just plain green varieties, with willisii, wendtii Brown and Mi oya varieties pushing through like it wasn't a waste of time me planting them at all.  I'm really happy with the growth of these.  Only a couple of the plants towards the middle of the tank have leaves affected by staghorn algae, the rest are slowly growing in really well.

Aggression seems to change as the days go by.  The dominant male likes to chase and bite his competitors and their tails are worse for wear with a couple of them demonstrating splits and missing parts.

Generally, everything is growing in well and I'm really happy with 99% of what I'm seeing.


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## Kogre (27 May 2021)

Aaaaand we have a third brood.  She's sticking to the front corner of the tank, easy to defend with a corner behind her and dense plant cover.  However, there are far more fish in the tank than when the other two broods turned up.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing, there will naturally be a lot of culling over time with even other fry picking off these little wrigglers.  So far I've managed to count a maximum of 10, so there's anywhere between 11 and 102312134 in there.

I swear when these mothers colour up I can't differentiate them from what they looked like before so don't have an idea of which of the females it is, bar a couple of distinctive ones.  I don't think this one is one that has previously a mother.  The father appears to be one of the two larger double reds.  This one isn't the alpha so we'll see how he copes when the alpha turns up.  And just as I was typing he turned up... the father just swam away getting chased.

S Repens has new growth, but there are still some lower leaves being disintegrated.  I've not pruned any of these off for some time (5th May) so if I don't end up working too long on Saturday I might just give a few of the deader leaves a snip providing I don't get too close to the new brood of fry.


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## shangman (27 May 2021)

I think you should stick a livecam on this tank and broadcast your own soap at this point!!


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## Kogre (27 May 2021)

I have thought about it  

All tetra now take food from my hand.  There's a male apostogramma (the father of the original two broods (he's so beat up now)) that'll take it from tweezers.  He's growing in confidence so I may be able to start feeding him by hand.  Only reason I have been feeding him like this is he is looking extremely gaunt and shredded and has been hanging out close to the surface under the floating plants.  Anytime he goes from food one of the other males nips at him or chases him away.


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## dw1305 (27 May 2021)

Hi all, 


Kogre said:


> Only reason I have been feeding him like this is he is looking extremely gaunt and shredded and has been hanging out close to the surface under the floating plants. Anytime he goes from food one of the other males nips at him or chases him away.


They only stay at the top of the tank when they haven't got any territory that they can use at floor level. You could try a <"length of pipe"> in the top corner of the tank for him to hide on, but I'd guess the end is nigh. 

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (27 May 2021)

Sounds like he needs a retirement tank, your big tank is a young fish's game!

How did you source all your apistos? Is the older male your original? Just wondering as it sounds to have 3 generations living together! Interested in hear about how you grew the community


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## dw1305 (27 May 2021)

Hi all, 


shangman said:


> Sounds like he needs a retirement tank


The best option. 

cheers Darrel


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## Kogre (27 May 2021)

Unfortunately I don't have another tank to put him in.  Missus is already preparing to beat me with a rolling pin when I next mention a nano tank for a betta again.  

I'll see how he fairs.  The pipe idea is a good one and should give him somewhere to hangout at least.



shangman said:


> How did you source all your apistos? Is the older male your original? Just wondering as it sounds to have 3 generations living together! Interested in hear about how you grew the community


Right, here goes my fish version of Dynasty...  In terms of numbers discounting any fry... right now I have five males and five females in there.  I purchased 6 orange flash from Maidenhead Aquatics, 2 males and 4 females.  I thought this was a nice balanced number but there became a problem very quickly, the father of the fry was nipping and chasing the other smaller male, this was before there was any fry in the tank.  Lesson:  Either a sole male or three males should have been purchased; all around the same size.  At this stage only one of the males had super long pectoral fins with a nice light blue hue and had a deep blue colour along his body.  The other seemed pale yellow and was often seen with a split down his tail at some stage or another.  I thought I would try to diffuse some of the aggression and ordered two double red apistogramma's having made a rookie mistake; not asking the seller questions.  I ended up with a male and a female (I was hoping for two males... I've never seen a female double red unless she carries the trait...) and these guys were small, like almost freshly our of their juvenile colourless lives and beginning their coloured up lives as young adults.  This gave the first and second original males a target, sadly a very small one who spent most of his time hiding.  Around this time two females had fry from the then dominant male.

A few weeks later I found another seller only this time I asked questions and asked for pictures.  I received two very large males.  "Matt Daaaammooooon" is the biggest and dominant one now, with only his brother sometimes challenging and failing.  There are no damaged fins on either of these.  "Matt Daaaammooooon" has developed larger pectoral fins with the blue hue, but his brothers have also started to grow in a little.  The original smaller orange flash is now bigger than the original dominant orange flash and he has the longest pectoral fins relative to his body size.  I think it's probably this guy dishing out some revenge on the original dominant.  The juvenile double red now no longer gets bullied by anything.  He gets chased off by females from time to time but his fins are well developed (healed from being split multiple times) and he's developing some heft since I first bought him.  None of the larger two double reds are annoyed by his presence and will eat alongside him.

From the two lots of fry I had, one brood was stolen by the other mother.  There are two lots of fry that have basically now been left to fend for themselves and between the two original broods I have an extremely broad range of sizes from tiny 5mm ones to 2-2.5cm ones (though there are few at this size, potentially only the one).  My response to throw more fish at the problem was a silly one.  I've already had a discussion with a local pet shop, probably about two-three weeks ago about them taking the original two males and they've said they would be happy to, only I can't catch both of them at the same time for the life of me.  I thought I was stressing all my fish out with the males darting down into the foliage and me disturbing everything trying to catch them.  so for now I thought I'd leave them be.  My youngest son likes the two orange ones...  That said, he hardly sits in the room with the aquarium, so I'm not totally against taking them to the store.

I'll go take a breath now.


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## shangman (28 May 2021)

Kogre said:


> Unfortunately I don't have another tank to put him in.  Missus is already preparing to beat me with a rolling pin when I next mention a nano tank for a betta again.
> 
> I'll see how he fairs.  The pipe idea is a good one and should give him somewhere to hangout at least.
> 
> ...



Quite a saga!! Thankyou for sharing 

I think it's natural to have problems like these, you did the right thing that everyone says by getting the 6 fish at the start, I've also heard from someone who I gave 2 male apistos to that they had problems, even in a rather large tank. I ended up swapping one of the males for a female. I wonder if there is ever a perfect number or if they will always be aggravation of some sort... apistos are so lovely, partly because they're so dramatic, but that drama comes with problems too lol

For your catching apisto problems, I've found it quite easy to catch them with a bottle trap with live food in, though you may be quite a large bottle for the big males to fit into! I would have 2 buckets, 1 for the fish that go in it that you want to keep (my motherfish was constantly going in the bottle to get more food, and when I'd take her out she'd just go straight back in again, very annoying), and one for the ones that you want to give to the LFS. Though maybe you've tried this plan! Catching any fish with a net in a big tank is a fool's game unless you're breaking the whole thing down. 😂


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## Kogre (3 Jun 2021)

The third brood got wiped out almost instantly.  The mother was chasing off fish all the way to the other side of the tank and I'm guessing her being so far away from the brood for longer than needed didn't help.  

This isn't something I mind and half expected with the number of fish in there right now.


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## Kogre (21 Jul 2021)

Been a while since I updated this... thought I'd do just that today.

The plants are doing well.  Some of the S Repens that was dying off (I had multiple leaves floating around most mornings) have been pulled out but I still have a lot of healthy plants in there.  The hygrophila pinnatifida completely died off and became food for the shrimp.  I didn't mind this, I had too much going on in there (arguably I still do).  The hygrophila siamensis 53b is doing really well.  I've been thinking about removing the wood with the moss on the left (it's blocking a lot of light and is difficult to remove and place back in because of how broadly the base sprawls) and placing cuttings of the hygrophila in the space.  There is a sword back there but it's not doing too good because of the blocked light I think.  The echinodorus reni died back and hasn't bounced back yet, I don't think it will as the hygrophila blocks a lot of light to the corners.

Some of the swords ended up being affected by the raised temperatures I had the tank running on for about a month to try and get a mixture of males to females.  I've now normalised the temperature and the damage seems to have stopped spreading.

The cryptocoryne beckettii (petchii) has just started to yellow in places and have leaves die off.  The wendtii I had planted before receiving my plants have completely taken over and are dominating the midground.  The vallisneria seemed to die back and bounced back two-fold.  I have leaves reaching over the top of the tank now, and some of it is growing inside the hollow.  I pull this out when I can reach it from the roots.  Same with the sagittaria, it's just growing bonkers as is expected.  As you can see, I'm a little behind pulling out from the front of the cave where some of the shrimp have decided to camp out.

Some of the "babies" have started growing out well and I have a nice mixture of males to females (thanks for the tip @dw1305) and the males have started to fill in their colours in their tails.  Some of them are already exhibiting courting behaviour.  There are currently at least two broods in their right now but I believe these are from already established mothers.

There is some sort of sickness in the tank.  I've lost a couple of the beginner males to it, where they start to develop black spots, they lose their appetite and end up dead.  One of the current mothers is affected by this affliction and has been for over a month.  It's the same fish in my profile picture.  Here she is, hiding away:



Currently there are a few fish affected by this, only the cacatuoides though from what I can see.


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## Wookii (21 Jul 2021)

Sorry to hear about the fish illness, I'm sure some of the more experienced apisto keepers can advise. 

That aside the tank looks fantastic - some serious growth for 6 weeks low tech! Given you have a lot more plant mass now, you may need to review your fert dosing regime.


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## Courtneybst (21 Jul 2021)

That is some crazy good growth! You should be proud!


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