# Plant-less scape



## Deano3 (3 Oct 2015)

Hi everyone didn't know weather to put this in the journals section as not planted (for now) anyway the bairn is dying for fish  which is fair enough as been wanting plants to flourish for ages and due to another child that's nearly 1 tank has been sitting with nothing happening anyway my son wants fish and so do I  I have done a scape without plants for now just manzi and landscaping rock what I already had, I am think once have fish I may start adding plants slowly but surely just low tech ones like crypts and Anubis etc.

Going to leave this ticking over without any lighting for week or so then get some fishes in there do you like with the wood at front left or without ? Pic 1-2










And some more pic ps no background yet as just didn't fit, you think black or smoked





















Still a bit cloudy from sand etc probs won't clear till water change I imagine also going to slope the sand on the right towards back slightly

Thanks dean


Thanks Dean


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## alto (3 Oct 2015)

I much prefer wood at front left - it seems to complete that focal line

Do you have algae control plans for that rock & wood 
(though some tanks just seem to have v little hardscape algae) ... floating plants maybe???
If you do add anubias, you may want to have some shading plants in first  .... microsorum sp? or perhaps some of those hang in/on tank planters with emerse growth plants (as seen in Green Pekoe Pond)

Funny, I was just look at ADG facebook (also hardscape gallery on their website is worth perusing)   

Very nice hardscape & contrast with that sand


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## Deano3 (3 Oct 2015)

Thanks alot not getting any plants for a while and the light isn't going to be that bright just turned it up in order for pics, as for algae control plecs are meant to be good for removing and cleaning the wood etc so get one of them and some shrimp maybe algae eater , think about green neon tetras to start

Been looking at the adg hardscape a and some are amazing and look so clean hopefully with background and clear water mine will end up looking ok, meant to look like wood is hanging over the rocks and down 


What you think for background keep it light and get smoked background ?

Thanks dean 


Thanks Dean


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## alto (3 Oct 2015)

Rather than a plec I'd consider some of the "hillstream" loaches (species index) - they are very cool fish to watch & breed quite easily if you've a mixed group (do some reading on LOL if you've not kept these fish before, hopefully your shop will have some idea of species)

For background - depends rather on how much you like the wallpaper effect (it would be rather interesting viewed through a smokey glass effect), if you want to eliminate the wallpaper, you might try posterboard against the tank back ... you can also add light effects with backlighting (low level LED strip ... the cheap room style sort should work fine)

Green neons are lovely fish, definitely add in at least 12 or so, they may need a larger shoal to show color/activity as light colored substrates can be intimidating for some fish ... fish may also be more relaxed with a dark background so I'd try out a couple options


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## Alexander Belchenko (3 Oct 2015)

With wood


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## tim (3 Oct 2015)

Love it with the wood over the front left deano, it's crying out for some Java fern attached to the wood and some crypts around the rocks  lovely layout mate.


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## Ady34 (4 Oct 2015)

Definitely with the foreground wood, really helps with the flow of the scape  
You could also add some cattappa leaves to the tank to add an extra dimension and added security for the fish if you choose 
Looks great though Dean and at least the little one will be able to enjoy some fish soon 
Cheerio
Ady


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## Martin in Holland (4 Oct 2015)

With wood for me too


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## Alexander Belchenko (4 Oct 2015)

Is it 60P tank?


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## Deano3 (4 Oct 2015)

Wow thanks for replies the wood is staying then  

Yes it's a 60p tank

I don't know why didn't do this a a while ago start backwards by getting fish then adding bits and bobs of plants lol also I was thinking some leaves might look good ady ,anywhere with some info about them as don't know much about adding them does it benefit the fish etc and does it not create algae etc but tanks do look good with them in and think I might do that before greenery

The tank looks better in person sorry about the iphone pics , what's the verdict on background black or smoked , I would just put something behind tank for ease but it's quite away from wall unless when watching I just sit directly opposite


Thanks Dean


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## Alexander Belchenko (4 Oct 2015)

I'd use opaque background.


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## Lindy (6 Oct 2015)

The right Leaves have antibacterial qualities such as catappa, oak and beech. They may also reduce ph when used in numbers. I collect fallen oak and beech in the autumn and catappa can be bought in large numbers on ebay. Beech are good to use as they alter the ph the least and take the longest to break down. I wouldn't get a plec as most get big and the also produce astounding amounts of poop so you'd be better just lifting the wood out and giving it a clean. Ramshorn snails are great clean up crew and come in some nice colours ie pink and blue and leopard spot.




Oak and beech







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## Deano3 (6 Oct 2015)

Very nice mate that's for the pics, yeah a few ppl have said that the plecs poop as much as they eat haha might get some cattappa leaves ordered off eBay then, still cannot make mind up on background , 

You think might be cycled after the 10 day mark ? I will check ammonia and nitrates and niterites with my test kit then anyway 




Thanks Dean


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## Lindy (6 Oct 2015)

Have you added a source of ammonia such as fish food?  Unless there is something to kick start your cycle then your tank won't be cycled. I've never had to think about that as when I've started a tank I use substrates that leech ammonia. 

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## Lindy (6 Oct 2015)

Floating plants would help put fish at ease and also soak up excess nutrients.

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## Deano3 (6 Oct 2015)

I didn't add any source of ammonia but a few ppl thought that the wood and rocks would start the cycle I also added a small amount of household ammonia after water change today to hopefully get it kick started a bit as just looked and my fish food a few years out of date 

And not adding any plants yet except maybe catappa leaves but one question do they turn the water dark brown ? 

I will be adding greenery in future for sure just want to get fishes for bairn first really like green neon tetras if can find anywhere local that does them couldn't see them in pets at home, what shrimp you advised ? And also might get some snails and any other recommendations for clean up crew

Also realised there is a slight difference on water level front to back by 1-2 mm you think will be ok ? 




Thanks Dean


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## Edvet (6 Oct 2015)

Aye Catappa will stain the water, not as much as elder cones though.


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## Deano3 (6 Oct 2015)

We'll think I will just leave the way it is for now as like the clear water maybe add them in future any other opinions on anything like clean up crew etc what best shrimp etc hopefully don't really get a algae problem as going to have 1 aquabar on less than 50% so should be quite low light and only on 5 hours a day or so for viewing  will do weekly water change a quick vacuum over the sand so at the minute I want a shoul of tetra either neon or green neon tetra and some shrimp and you think otto or algae eaters ?

You think will cycle now added some ammonia ? Will check parameters this week or so  

Also you think 1-2mm did fence of water level from front to back will be ok ?




Thanks Dean


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## alto (7 Oct 2015)

You'll be fine with the slight un-level - just check that tank is not rocking but stable with a slight slope, also check there is no "twist"

Best shrimp depends a bit on type of fish you add- some shrimp are more outgoing than others, all shrimp are more confident in numbers so best to just add 10 -12 of one species/type rather than 4 each of a few different species ... most shrimp will breed readily but survival of the offspring is usually better in a shrimp only tank or heavily planted tank (think moss thickets)  

I've recently added a group of "red-nose" (nominally shipped as _Caridina Gracilirostris_ but suspect they are mostly these ) & they are loads of fun to watch & are excellent algae grazers
Cherry are usually quite hardy (& breed readily in most tanks)
Amano's of course (require brackish water to breed & food source)
Tiger  breed readily in tanks - I find these to be rather bolder than Cherrry 
Observing various shrimp, they seem to have algae preferences - whichever sort you get, expect to subsidize their diet with appropriate foods (there are loads of shrimp specialist foods but I just feed a mixed 'fish' diet & shrimp seem to do fine - filter cleaning takes a while though as there are always baby shrimp, I finally set up a Spec 19 tank to grow out the babies)

Avoid the ammonia, just add fish food daily - so much simpler 
Tanks will cycle without any intervention, but usually take longer & you still need to slowly add in fish, as bacterial populations are small.
Wood/plant/stone from an established tank will usually "jump-start" a tank cycle. 

When you add in new fish, a few days of daily water changes are always a positive (clean water is the best medicine), this will allow the filter to catch up if needed.

To keep sand clean, shrimp will pick the surface, cory's will sift top layers, various botias will burrow & turn over the sand (again look for smaller species, take note of oxygen requirements & social number needed).
Oto's will help tidy the glass & are the best diatom cleaners.
There are quite a number of smaller "plec*'s" in the 3-4 in range, but most are quite shy compared to otos & loaches (hillstreams are usually quite easily kept, *stiphodon* loaches/gobies are generally more $$ & more demanding re environs/food etc)


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## Deano3 (7 Oct 2015)

Brilliant thanks for all that mate, think I will go for amano shrimp will they just eat normal tropical flakes or require different shrimp food ? 

Also will add a small pinch of food daily to water you think I should place in enheim skimmer so doesn't float all over tank however will still break down ? Just a pinch ?

And tetras , amano shrimp and Otos are certain for now , and hopefully low light and surface Hoover will keep algae away 


Thanks Dean


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## alto (7 Oct 2015)

If you pre-soak the flake food for a few minutes ( 2-10 depending on food type), it will sink. You can add a good sized pinch - if you feel you added too much, just do a water change next day or 2 ...

All the shrimp I mentioned will eat flake, I'm less keen on Amano's as mine all get lazy - except for racing out at feeding time, then watch out! - (maybe I feed too much "good stuff" ) & they get quite large (males stay smaller for most shrimp species, color may be stronger in either male or female depending)
If you go with "wild type" colouring (eg, red cherry is fine, but "bloody mary" variant is usually less hardy) most shrimp are quite tolerant
 - I use a Python for water changes & just add Prime for tank volume when refilling with tap water that is 1-3 C lower than tank temp, cooler is always better.
If your water is very soft, you many want to add some GH booster for moulting (I don't but I do feed frozen brine shrimp, daphnia, bloodworm).
Just get shrimps that won't break the budget - I usually establish shrimps before adding in any fish other than oto's, but it should work fine either way (unless you want barbs! they tend to be quite avid shrimp hunters).


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## Iain Sutherland (7 Oct 2015)

looks good deano, great to see a tank running in your house again fella, you should get full enjoyment from this one without any of the headaches!

If you want to put some leaves in do so, just soak them for a day or so before hand in a jar, changing the water daily to get rid of most of the tea effect.  You will lose some of the benefits of the leaves but generally they look great and very natural once they are in.  Remember they do degrade though so just add half a dozen or so and swap them out completely from time to time.  The fish will love you for it.

Floating plants would be a good idea, helps the fish be a little bolder and also stops a lot of jumpers in open tops.  Covering the corners with a triangle of plastic or failing that cling film, will also reduce jumpers dramatically. 
Have you considered dwarf cories?  Awesome fish and quite suitable for a 60p.
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/corydoras-habrosus/

will look great with some microsorum and anubias when you get that far


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## Deano3 (7 Oct 2015)

Thanks for the nice words , has been running for 5 days now and i am working till saturday, was hoping to get some fish when off off saturday till tuesday, will add a bit food daily then later in week will check ammonia and nitrate and niterights hopefully all 0 you think that might be long enough ?

I may get some cattappa leaves like i say iain but want nice clear water thats all so might get some floaters instead but not sure as like the clean look at the minute, do you get many jumpers normally ?

My seachem prime was off when checked other day had it for years stinks now lol so got some tetra aquasafe but need 5ml for every 10l so using 20ml every water change so not going to last long , with seachem prime u hardly used any what do you use to purify tap water ?

Thanks dean


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## alto (7 Oct 2015)

I use Prime - it's effective for both chlorine & chloramines (water supplier was considering switching over to chloramines, but went with chlorine substations in the end) & helps protect against nitrite toxicity as well - use up to 10X normal dose BUT be careful with this if you have shrimp ... though I suspect Prime would still be better tolerated than nitrite - just be careful to dilute before adding as it's viscosity can result in localized high concentrations & if a sensitive fish or shrimp swim through that blob, they are less than impressed.
This concept (of dilution) really applies to anything that you add to the tank, conservative is always appreciated by livestock.

If you add in just a few fish, I suspect you'll be fine, especially if you're able to do 25% daily water changes.
I'm completely guilty of tossing 8-10 guppy juveniles - brilliant orange dudes that I just couldn't leave behind in the shop - into a newly set up tank, I add Seachem Ammonia alert (pH Alert as well sometimes if I'm concerned about hardscape etc affecting pH) & do frequent water changes ... I do always have some sponge or bit of media I can pull from another tank, but this is not the same as a cycled filter, though it's a good starter culture so cycling is faster.
You can also pick up a product such as Dr Tim's "One & Only" - there are a couple on the market (not to be confused with the vast array of wannabeaquariumnitrifiers) - they can work well but as these bacteria are rather fragile, you need to be sure of the source & follow directions closely.

If your tap water measures zero nitrates, & tank measures 5-10ppm nitrates, you know filter is on it's way, then check for nitrite & ammonia - it's common to see nitrates beginning while nitrites are still waning.
Due to the mechanism of action of nitrite toxicity, you can add salt (sodium chloride) to protect fish (sorry I don't recall salt levels, but The Skeptical Aquarist is always a good source of information - & attitude ) + water changes of course + Prime etc & it mostly all works just fine out in the end  ...   it's just not the conservative approach


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## Deano3 (8 Oct 2015)

Thanks again alto when I run out of tetra I will order some seachem prime next time, I am a little confused about what you mean about 10x dose is that just to protect from nitrites ? Is normal dose ok for getting chlorine out of water ? 

Will check my levels on Saturday then of ok get a few fish , are jumpers common in open top tanks ?


Thanks Dean


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## Ady34 (8 Oct 2015)

Jumpers can be a problem but it largely depends on species......however i had an angelfish jump out and that was a sad surprise. I had a glass top made for my tank to avoid this, also as im running 80 farenheit temperature, evaporation and resultant condensation in the conservatory became an issue. With the top i dont have jumpers anymore and i dont top the tank up all week  win win! Its pretty unobtrusive also as its glass and rests on ada tank hooks. The only negative is you cant have protruding wood from the scape and you have to dust it 
I dont think you should add fish after only a week Dean, dont rush it mate or you could end up with a lot of stress. Just add the pinch of fish food every other day for a couple of weeks and stock slowly  Ive been cycling a nano this way for nearly two weeks now with some floating plants and weekly water change and will look to add some fish next week.

Also regards your sand, you can keep it pristine by using a gravel cleaner syphon as part of your weekly maintenance.
As others have stated plecs of any size are messy, and ones that will keep your wood clean by eating it are particularly messy. I have several small clown plecs and bristlenose but they do produce a lot of waste. Ottos are good cleaners, but they really dont like immature tanks and should be a last addition if you opt for them. No matter what you add nothing beats good maintenance 

Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Deano3 (8 Oct 2015)

Thanks for that ady I was thinking about getting a lid think you can buy direct from green machine, will have a look, u think is best to see of have many jumpers first then decide , 

As for fish I will add the ottos last and and tetras first then shrimp, not sure weather to go for green tetra or neon as the greens have less colour and will look better in the scape I think but I normally go to pets at home and don't think the Washington one has them, could try metro center pets at home or dobies see of have green tetra, as as you say I will keep adding the fish food and over weekend check my levels

Do you just use the recommended amount of seachem prime with your tap water ? And will get myself a gravel vac as had one but think chucked it out. When I fill my tank I been using hose connected to my kitchen tap but need a decent way to hook onto tank so can leave it to fill  what do you guys do

Dean


Thanks Dean


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## alto (8 Oct 2015)

The 10X dose on Prime is just for emergency nitrite toxicity (may protect against ammonia as well, but there are better products on the market for that, eg, the zeolite compounds you add to your filter).

I refill direct from the tap, I've a Python system & just use an Eheim suction cup with clip (one clip is the perfect size to tightly hold the Python tubing & Eheim suction cups out-suction the competition ) ... recently I've added an intake tube to the assembly, the Python tubing slips neatly inside & the intake strainer diffuses the flow, each has an Eheim suction cup/clip.
This is also useful for draining the tank as no fish can enter the out- bound flow.
A tank lid is also useful for holding that tubing in place - here again the Eheim suction cup make a nice obstacle to prevent the tubing leaping out.
It's alot more zen if you can see tank & tap at the same time & can dash back & forth with few obstacles 

While vacuuming the sand just use the tip of a finger to gently stir the upper cm or so, any algae-discolored sand get's turned under - you can obviously do this any time, but I like to make sure any particles are vacuumed up first (this may take a bit of practise so as not to syphon up sand as well).

I vote for green neon tetras - though they get plenty bright when settled.
Black phantom tetras are always a favorite, though obviously different behavior than the neons.
There are lots of rasboras available these days, just make sure to get at least 10-12 - or alot more if you go micro  (though for kids, I'd likely go with neon size rather than micro)


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## Deano3 (12 Oct 2015)

Just a quick update done a large water change yesterday even if not necessary (couldn't believe the amount of crap I threw up stirring the sand and cleaning the black off the wood , the water was very cloudy) but took best part of hour so give it a thorough clean as need to get used to it, also got the background on but not sure of like it but staying for time being






Need to turn the wood so facing down on the left like before









Then took bairns to ue reef aquarium yesterday to kill some time quite a nice day out here is jake looking at (shark) 





Anyway still looking locallys for green neon tetras as stay nice amd small so hopefully find some 

Also anyone seen twinstar nano on sale at tgm for £92 seems a good price whats the overall opinion on them or is it split ? Seems to give clearer water etc

Dean


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## alto (13 Oct 2015)

at that price, heck yeah  

(lot $ more here)

It will likely keep your rocks looking much cleaner, I like mine as it's decent at maintaining water oxygen levels - even when I accidentally bump up the CO2 & then leave all day


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## Deano3 (13 Oct 2015)

Yeah was thinking might be a nice help ☺ works out at £92 all in but is there not a new version coming out ? Found the m5 one on amazon at around £105 whats difference etc


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## alto (13 Oct 2015)

Pictures, Pictures, Pictures 

- but watch the video closely for hints as to capacity & names 
(I'm a little confused but may be better after coffee  )


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## Deano3 (13 Oct 2015)

I just watched yesterday's walking dead really enjoyed it  so is the m5 the new one is there no uk suppliers ?


Thanks Dean


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## alto (13 Oct 2015)

Twinstar product info & tank size recommendations here 
For your tank you could go either way (shame the company didn't switch out all the bright white "in tank" parts for dull grey)
Difficult to comprehend the differences between the actual offered products as the same reactor appears to be used for algae & fish & shrimp disease inhibition ... perhaps the controller just does different timing on the reactor action 

When my local shop got them in (they tested the product in their display tanks) the sales mumbo jumbo implied that differences in the reactors were what separated the algae vs disease effects  ... I thought perhaps something along the lines of silver ion release in the disease prevention models BUT as the above site promotes same reactor across the models ... it may just be the same increased water column oxygenation (which to give credit, is a significant consideration in preventing fish diseases - especially in aquaculture systems)  

(I'd just buy the cheaper one from TGM )


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## Marcxw (14 Oct 2015)

Hardscape looks great!
Will look even better with a school of tetras swimming around.
Maybe a lighter background as well, even go a off white which will look darker through the water anyways.
Also have you considered adding some good old java moss? even if its in the back out of sight. I find it does wonders for water quality, and overall balance/stability by taking up access nutrients & toxins and control algae. Fish and shrimp will also be happier.


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## Deano3 (15 Oct 2015)

PlAnts will be coming after a while 

Have some while algae on the wood even though lights haven't been on but there are on now as purchased a few fish  got 4 green neon tetras as that's all they had on stock however one was sucked into Lilly pipe and stuck on inlet and one must have jumped as disappeared but other 2 seem to be happy, carried out water change after a day to help cannot wait to have a large shoal hopefully if still have 2 will get 8 next week as only very small fish  green tetras are stunning fish,blue from underneath and green from above ,

Only set my lights to come on from 6 till 8 for viewing but might change as when I am off that's no good



 what type algae is this













Thanks Dean


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## dw1305 (15 Oct 2015)

Hi all, 
How about just adding some floating plants at the moment? 

cheers Darrel


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## Alexander Belchenko (15 Oct 2015)

I don't think this white stuff is algae, it's probably some sort of fungus. Brush it off and syphon out.


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## alto (15 Oct 2015)

It's the famous wood slime/mould/whathaveyou 
- the perfect excuse to add shrimp!

Creatures that get stuck on the filter inlet are often not in the best of health - adding a sponge cover of some sort when adding in new livestock will give them time to adapt/recover.
After a few days of good activity/expected food response, it's safe to remove the filter guard.

Sorry for your losses, I suspect the missing green neon is stuck somewhere out of sight, these fish aren't much for jumping.
Green neons really are stunning fish (usually less inbred than some of the other "neons"), definitely try to get a shoal of 15 or so (you may see a few losses in the first months & they are not stocked as commonly).

No java moss please!
I like the scape just as it is 

Panda loaches would also clean your stones (& likely cost less than the Twinstar ) - these loaches are making the rounds in the local shops at the moment but I'm resisting so far - they are the perfect excuse for more lighting as they really need a good portion of algae in their diet

.......  & rock algae is perfect!

(perhaps they will even relish that wood slime)

Note that as with most loaches, these should be kept in small groups


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## Deano3 (15 Oct 2015)

Thanks for the kind words again alto  keeping as iz for now, yeah the green neons are tiny little fish and very beautiful to look at, I have added my shrimp guard to the inlet for now so hopefully not as strong on intake and still 2 fish there today haha, you think would be ok to buy 8-10 green neons at once or is that too much for the beneficial bacteria ?

After got nice shoal I will be getting shrimp and loaches as suggested 





Thanks Dean


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## alto (15 Oct 2015)

as long as you're OK to do daily water changes if needed, another 8-10 of these fish should be fine - how big are they? they look small 
Sorry I can't recall tank dimensions or water pH, the more alkaline the pH, the less tolerance for any ammonia.

You might just let the wood-life build until shrimp arrive   neons may enjoy picking at it as well


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## Alexander Belchenko (15 Oct 2015)

Wood life lol


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## Marcxw (2 Nov 2015)

How's this setup progressing?...any pic updates....I'm expecting a huge shoal of blinding green neons


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## Deano3 (7 Nov 2015)

Sorry for the late reply tank is ticking along nicely very hard to get pics as only using tablet or phone at the min , currently have 9 green neon tetras in and 5 neon tetras and 1 otto, the stores local never had green ones in and wanted some fish for bairns so got the normal neons then just got stock recently so got the greens and prefer them by a mile much better looking and smaller 














Going to get another 6 or so greens and another otto i think. One thing i couldnt belive is the amount of poo that was on my sand when i only had 2 greens and the neons as only got another 7 greens yesterday , anyway i had the shrimp filter guard over lilly pipe and was covered in poo but ontop of the sand there was huge amounts of poo maybe i should get a deep lilly pipe inflow and not the mini one as much higher in the water . Obviously will be doing larger water change every week so not huge problem.

Also getting bored without plants already haha defiently staying low tech as just dont have time for high tech

Thanks for reading
Dean


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