# So LED's don't work??



## Plunket (21 Apr 2011)

Hi all

Just wondered if anyone had noticed this from TGM website?


> "Why We Don't Stock LED Lighting APR 19 2011
> The Arrival of LEDs
> 
> At The Green Machine we are always on the look out for new and innovative products, so when LEDs came to the market we were very excited at the prospect of a more economical lighting solution for the planted aquarium.
> ...


Is it just me, or doesn’t this fly in the face of all the current evidence?  I have 3 x GroBeam 1000’s over my 4 x 1.5 x 2, and can only concur with the positive feedback provided by George and others elsewhere under the Lighting section – my tank is looking better that ever. 

Given all this evidence, it seems a bit rich for a company to put this kind of commentary in the public domain...or am I missing something?

The cynic in me suspects perhaps some concern over diminishing sales of replacement  bulbs   ?


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## sanj (21 Apr 2011)

Do they grow plants? They certainly do, I grow them in a 27" deep aquarium with Aquaray 500s.

However do they grow plants on "par"(te hee) with what the people at TGM expect... that might very well be a different expectation.

They do have every right not to stock the LEDs if they do not wish to sell them. They have also tested the likes of TMC and Arcadia products on their own tanks, I have seen the tanks with them on and I believe the marketing picture for the arcadia T8 replacement LEDs was over one of their tanks. It certianly looked like "Through a childs eyes" anyway.

It is not like there arent plenty of other avenues to go down if anyone wants to purchase LEDS.

This side of the hobby is not the great technology innovator, it is the reef keeping enthusiasts who create the demand and have cumulative buying power that pushes development and leads to break throughs in the likes of LED. I know from personal experiance that certain products like Ecolamps are punching thier weight and producing great results with the most demanding SPS corals. The planted freshwater side however always seems to be an afterthought.

All in all if they have tested some commonly available products and do not feel that they are giving the same standard of results as other lighting sources then surely it is a good thing to voice that feeling?  They are a niche market (planted tanks) and no tacky stuff. They need to believe in the products they are selling surely.

My gripe with some of the LED manufactures is that they initially were selling these products without any evidence from test tanks, but on the basis of theory and cost savings. It was down to a few customers and retailers who took the investment plunge. There was massive sceptisism from the Reef hobby.


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## nayr88 (21 Apr 2011)

Plus ada don't sell a LED unit....

Sin bin or naughty step?? Haha

George grew plants with them, and well too! Being the leading UK plant people they kniow there stuff so I'm sure its justified, and if there not happy with LED's then why sell them, its good work ethics I spose.


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## Stu Worrall (21 Apr 2011)

I cant imagine TGM would turn down selling £400 plus LED sets for the sake of a few bulb sales.  I thought most people on here would buy bulbs from lampspecs anyway after all the threads on them?  Ive not tried them myself but when I compared what I needed to grow HC at ground level on a 90x45x45cm i went with a Solar 1.  Lots cheaper on the initial purchase than 3 panels of LED's plus even then there was no guarantee the light would be strong enough to reach the bottom... Admittedly the solar1 will cost more in electricity in the long run but at least if the bulb goes I can replace it.

They look great for smaller tanks or larger tanks with low light plants in but im holding fire until the technology improves...


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## nayr88 (21 Apr 2011)

Your have a solar one! Maaaan I want one! They look so fresh!

how noticeable is it on the elec? How long do bulbs last ect?


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## Stu Worrall (21 Apr 2011)

they are styled very nicely   I haven't really noticed anything as it replaced the roof lights on that side of the room so they are never turned on which saves 120W towards running it plus the old t5's were 96W.  

They say to replace the bulbs at 1 year but I havent done mine yet, will just run it and see what happens.  At the moment it still grows HC in inert sand at the bottom of the tank so im quite happy


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## Plunket (21 Apr 2011)

No argument about TGM being a major player in the planted scene...I guess I'm just puzzled by why they would so vocally denounce a technology that has been proven by some reputable people, which clearly has a place in the hobby and which pretty much everyone agrees is getting better and better.  Surely, if you're in the business of supplying specialist kit, you want to at least have a finger in the pie, so to speak?  Just seems a bit dogmatic really.


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## nayr88 (21 Apr 2011)

Hc in in inert sand  quitcha bragging haha 

Plunket, marketing reasons, ADA don't sell a LED unit?


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## idris (21 Apr 2011)

Only having read what the quote from the OP (and not searched any further on TGM's website) I would say that's a disappointing statement from them. Not disappointing from the fact of acuracy but rather for how it says it and what it doesn't say. 

They state the same things repeatedly (we don't think they work / we hope they will /etc) without giving any indication of why they think they don't work. I have no opinion of LEDs for planted tanks (other than WRT their cost) but TMC seem to be suggesting their opinion is more valid than magazine reviews but offer nothing to justify their opinion. "We think they don't work and you should only listen to us."

Maybe they offer a more in depth appraisal of LEDs elsewhere.


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## Garuf (21 Apr 2011)

They don't "believe" in ei either, let them lose their own wars.


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## Dan Crawford (21 Apr 2011)

I've got an ADA Solar 1 bought from TGM, it looks super swish, I adore it BUUUT - ever since i've owned it I've struggle with Algae. My theory is that there is too much light - not enough CO2 etc so I raised it up, it worked - algae dissapeared  but then my plants went into decline and I started to get headaches every night since my tank is in the living room. Now, i've done all the usual of lift it up, drop it down, add more CO2 and all that game and i'm about right now. This is not to say that it's ADA's fault, i'm sure it would be the same with all halides but my next purchase will be an AquaGro ND1000 to go with my current one and 2 500s as they are controllable so I can place them however high I want and they cheaper to run. For me, long term investment is a bonus because my income fluctuates, so when I have a good month I can splash out, when things are tight I don't have to worry about the electricity bill  I doubt it's that noticeable but if you spread it over 8-9 years then i'm sure it's a saving and it's one less thing to worry about, plus, replacing my NA bulb is about £100 or something, thats just not going to happen!

I'm all for aesthetics but for once in my life, i'm gonna choose function over form  

The one ND1000 i've got works great and looks pretty swish the way I had it set up. Here's a tank that Graeme Edwards setup and grew on using it, he loved the ability to start the tank off on half light and gradually increase it as the plants require.





Theres no disputing LED's ability to grow plants, just look at what George has done with them!


http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14467&hilit=scree&start=90#p160436

I currently use the ND1000 over my vivarium coz it creates almost no heat and is really powerful, it's perfect.

Why wouldn't you stock something that has proven success at keeping both corals and plants? I dunno!


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## nayr88 (21 Apr 2011)

Cheers Dan, didn't realise it was a oner to replace the bulbs! 

The 1st pic the light actually doesn't look to bad, and I'm sure therell besome being produced with aesthetics in mind in the near future, depends on you taste I suppose. 

Sorry to keep touching on ADA haha but I wonder what they have to say about LED's and any future LED fixtures? Has anyone found any info on that?

Cheers


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## sanj (21 Apr 2011)

I think some of what is being suggested is that some people want to wait until LED gets to that more perfected level before investing. A bit like T5s in the early 2000s, it took half a decade and theyve plateauxed.

In 8-9 years there are going to be so much sexier lighting, led will probably advanced to where it needs to, there could  possibly be plasma. 

Still rising leccy bills is an issue now and from someone who works in the energy industry, it will keep going up above inflation. That is what happens when a country has to diversify its energy mix and not be over reliant on gas when the suppliers of that gas are not our best of friends.


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## ghostsword (21 Apr 2011)

I have been using LEDs for a while now, and since seeing the one at the London show it made even more sense. 

After seeing George's tank on the forum, the thread that Dan quoted, it seems silly not to replace expensive lights with leds.

Too much light is an issue, and the tiles can be ramped up or down, and have a long warranty. Also, energy is not cheap.

TGM may have it's reasons to not stock LEDs but I am not seeing it being a valid one .


.


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## Garuf (21 Apr 2011)

Dan, what's the stand used in the first link?

Of topic I know. 

They can fight the tide as much as they like I suspect it'll only lose them ground long term, "evolve or die" springs to mind.


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## sanj (22 Apr 2011)

> I have been using LEDs for a while now, and since seeing the one at the London show it made even more sense.



Luis, what LEDs did you see?


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## ghostsword (22 Apr 2011)

Above one of the tanks there was a TMC large tile. Similar to the ones that George is using.


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## plantbrain (22 Apr 2011)

TMG, at least their macro nutrient version came out from a conversation Claus and myself had in 1998.
I think it is a business reason perhaps, later, I'd assume they will use LED's for some applications.

I'm waiting for a decent reasonable priced unit in the USA, plenty of very nice DIY versions can be done.........some of the locals here have cooked up some really neat stuff, some are doing the spectra graphs for various LED's.
We have a local light maker Catalina Aquarium in Sacramento where I'm at.

So I think in and year or two.....the market will be riper.

there's little doubt as to the ability to grow plants..........but to have a company make a nice one suited for plants? Not really there yet IMO. The colors from FL's are still nicer for many, this will change through.


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## George Farmer (22 Apr 2011)

No one can justifiably deny the effectiveness of TMC LEDs.  

The evidence from many planted tank owners now using them speaks for itself.

This was taken recently.  Note the pearling.





I would be interested to hear what LED units they and their customers used, and in what configuration.   This would add considerably more credibility to the article.


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## sanj (22 Apr 2011)

> I would be interested to hear what LED units they and their customers used, and in what configuration. This would add considerably more credibility to the article.



They have tested the same TMC tiles as well as the Arcadia T8 replacements. Perhaps others, but im not sure on that.

TMC tiles are not rated so well with Reef keepers compared to the LED competitor units from China/Honkong (Ecolamps and Maxspec), but that is chiefly down to PAR which is not the same issue for planted tanks. 

I am a little iffy on the colour rendition of my TMC 500s, but then that is over a depth of 27". How do you find the colours from your plants and fish without the aid of supplementary lights when you take photos?


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## George Farmer (22 Apr 2011)

Thanks, sanj.  

Not sure why they've not succeeded with the TMC tiles.  They have good PAR and grow plants very well indeed when used appropriately.

Colour rendition is an interesting topic.  

I am used to T5 fluorescents that really saturate the colours (I usually use a combination of Hagen Life-Glo, JBL 9000K and Arcadia Pro Plant).  

LEDs in comparison lack the vibrancy of some fluorescents, but I actually think the colour rendition when combined with the glitter lines and shadows of the LED look more natural.


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## Stu Worrall (22 Apr 2011)

I do love the shimmer and shadows you get with point source lighting. Miles ahead of flouescants on that point.  

The thing im interested in is has anyone got carpeting plants growing well in a deep tank under LED, eg 45cm+ ?  (i know it works great nanos and small tanks)  anyone got any examples they can post?


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## George Farmer (22 Apr 2011)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> The thing im interested in is has anyone got carpeting plants growing well in a deep tank under LED, eg 45cm+ ?  (i know it works great nanos and small tanks)  anyone got any examples they can post?


Hi Stu,

That would be good to see.

Jeremy Gay (PFK Editor) grew glosso nicely in an 80cm, but it was 30cm deep.






I may try 3x TMC tiles over my 120x45x45cm soon (if I don't get sent away with the Libya conflict).  

Cheaper that 2x ADA Solar 1 units, and much much cheaper to run.  Also, halides have a wider spread and more glare, so this usually results in needing the clean the aquarium glass more often, as well as potentially dazzling any room occupants!


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## Johno2090 (22 Apr 2011)

I had a glosso carpet growing well in my old tank that was 40cm tall using just two tmc aqua-rays. I'm now growing some high light carpeting plants in my new setup at around 20" deep. It's early days but I know there putting down roots quickly!


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## sanj (22 Apr 2011)

> I may try 3x TMC tiles over my 120x45x45cm soon (if I don't get sent away with the Libya conflict).



I own a PAR meter so I could always measure the output if you set this tank up.


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## George Farmer (23 Apr 2011)

sanj said:
			
		

> > I may try 3x TMC tiles over my 120x45x45cm soon (if I don't get sent away with the Libya conflict).
> 
> 
> 
> I own a PAR meter so I could always measure the output if you set this tank up.


Thanks for the kind offer, sanj.  I usually borrow one from the PFK office.  What brand and model is your PAR meter?


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## sanj (23 Apr 2011)

Hi George,

It is probably the same they have, it is an Apogee Quantum Flux. My parents live in P'boro, but then so is the PFK offices. But if you ever need it...


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## Plunket (23 Apr 2011)

stuworrall said:
			
		

> I do love the shimmer and shadows you get with point source lighting. Miles ahead of flouescants on that point.
> 
> The thing im interested in is has anyone got carpeting plants growing well in a deep tank under LED, eg 45cm+ ?  (i know it works great nanos and small tanks)  anyone got any examples they can post?



Hi Stu
Forgive poor quality - photography and 'scaping not my strong points  - but couple of pics of gloss under 1000ND's in my 4x2x2:













Water depth at substrate is about 47cm...


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## Johno2090 (24 Apr 2011)

Its a shame, i've lost a lot of respect for them after this review....Why write something off so completely when the results of many 'serious' plant growers have had expectational results...


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## sanj (5 May 2011)

Perhaps of some interest, those of you have spent hours searching on the net about LEDs over the last few years will have already seen this: *Controlled Tests with Plants and The Aquatic Life Implications;* http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html#par

Personally though I would want more information on the experiment. Yet still a bit of interest in the debate... or perhaps there is no debate


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2011)

OK, so instead of bashing The Green Machine on the Lighting sub-forum which they are not allowed to respond to, perhaps it would have been better to post this question on the TGM sub-Forum. I can grow plants with a Tesco 100 watt incandescent light bulb, or even a Sainsbury 14 watt Energy Saver bulb, but I wouldn't suggest using either of these bulbs generally.

Perhaps there are reasons other than PAR why TGM do not like the current state of LED technology. Perhaps it is a quality/value issue. Perhaps there are ergonomic issues. Perhaps there are pricing issues. Perhaps people have completely misinterpreted the statements and have narrowly focused on the least relevant of their reasons.

It is suggested therefore that we withhold judgement until TGM are able to clarify the specifics of their position. If we don't like their clarification then perhaps then the bashing can proceed...

Cheers,


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## Johno2090 (6 May 2011)

I actually sent them a pm in the hopes that tgm would come and shed light on their view (pardon the pun) maybe lift the clause and allow them to respond to this thread. Because I for one would like to hear their views.

 An article like this by such a well known member of the planted community needs to speak up because it could cause people to shy away from a cheap and effective long term solution to aquarium lighting. This I think is why people are "Bashing" because a majority view on ukaps.org, a leader in planted tanks and techniques, seems to be the opposite of what tgm say. And an open debate on the subject (under the lighting section as this is where people will look and nit the tgm subsection) will benefit all comers from experienced keepers to new people looking for new lighting.

I think that's all I wanted to say.


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## foxfish (6 May 2011)

There you are ...... viewtopic.php?f=47&t=15847


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## ceg4048 (6 May 2011)

Thanks mate.

John, Sponsors are not allowed to post outside of their own sub-forum, period. We will follow the protocol and will see what happens. Additionally, everyone is allowed an opinion, including sponsors and other vendors. It is our responsibility to interpret the posted opinions assuming that those opinions have been articulated properly. TGM has never stated that LED does not grow plants. They merely implied that they do not prefer LED technology and therefore have decided against selling it until, in their opinion, the technology is improved to their satisfaction.

When LED first hit the scene I was aghast at the prices for the commercial units. It would never occur to me to spend that kind of money for light bulbs, just as it would never occur to me to spend 30 quid for a name brand fluorescent bulb when I can buy one for a relative pittance at Lapmspecs. Name brand bulbs, for example,  do not look 10X better in my opinion than cheap bulbs, nor do they last 10X longer, therefore I could see no reason they are priced 10X more. Yet, people buy these bulbs all the time.

It's entirely possible that TGM have a similar feeling towards LED, which may have nothing to do with LED ability to grow plants. Or, they may actually have growth performance data. It's not clear, but as I said, lets give them the chance to respond to a thread posted in their sub-forum so that we do not create the impression that "TGM suck because they don't sell LED", OK?

Cheers,


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## foxfish (6 May 2011)

However it is a strange system that this forum operates on!
The sponsors are not permitted to post outside their allotted threads - I guesse there is some logic revolving around this situation?


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## Johno2090 (6 May 2011)

Its Chris btw  and don't worry I get called John alot...


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## ceg4048 (7 May 2011)

Oh golly, sorry mate. That's what happens when we assume...


			
				foxfish said:
			
		

> However it is a strange system that this forum operates on!
> The sponsors are not permitted to post outside their allotted threads - I guesse there is some logic revolving around this situation?


Yes mate, there are extremely good reasons for this, which I'm not prepared to re-hash right now. You'll have to trust me on this one.

Cheers,


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## greenink (26 Jun 2011)

Johno2090 said:
			
		

> And an open debate on the subject (under the lighting section as this is where people will look and nit the tgm subsection) will benefit all comers from experienced keepers to new people looking for new lighting.



Couldn't agree more. Here's a very positive (and detailed) American review of LEDs in the context of different lighting options. Scroll about half way down for the detailed LED section. The upshot is that "a high PAR/PUR LED from the most exclusive/best emitter bins can only need 4% of the wattage as a household T12 to produce the same results [or] ... about 17% for better aquarium T8 or T12 lamps" and that "It is still easy to make assumptions from the raw data based on this study with plants that a 12 Watt LED can at least replace a 100 watt MH of equal Kelvin ratings"

Here's the test result comparing Metal Halide and LEDs:





Sounds like good news to me. The helpful American chap says that when "the outdated 'watts per gallon rule' for planted/reef aquariums (@ 4 watts per gallon) is applied to a TMC GroBeam (as an example)" that for "a high light planted freshwater aquarium .6 to maybe .8 watts per gallon are required."

Translating this into British English :silent:, means that *0.16 - 0.21 LED W are needed per litre*. 

So my 72L tank (for example) requires 11.5W to 15.2W. So I'm pretty much ok with just the one 12W Grobeam, but could push it to 2 for a serious light overload...


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## Radik (26 Jun 2011)

They are most likely right. I was blowing 2x 12W TMC stripes to 78L tank and got issues... so that equals to 200W MH. Now I run first at 50% and second and 40% and placed them higher than before.


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## greenink (26 Jun 2011)

Radik said:
			
		

> They are most likely right. I was blowing 2x 12W TMC stripes to 78L tank and got issues... so that equals to 200W MH. Now I run first at 50% and second and 40% and placed them higher than before.



Right. Well I won't invest in another Grobeam then... saving up for a Canon EOS 550D instead


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## flygja (27 Jun 2011)

mikeappleby said:
			
		

> So my 72L tank (for example) requires 11.5W to 15.2W. So I'm pretty much ok with just the one 12W Grobeam, but could push it to 2 for a serious light overload...



Don't forget that light spread is equally important with LEDs. LEDs are very directional and using too little LEDs will cause darkness in certain parts of the tank. 

I've recently (like last weekend recently) raised my DIY LED fixture to 60cm above substrate and attached 60 degree optics to it. Testing to see if my hairgrass and H.tennellum carpet survives and flourishes. I will be updating my journal on its progress.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15603&start=10#p170701

One thing with LEDs... I find it harder to get red plants to turn red. Something to do with the spectrum perhaps?


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## Radik (27 Jun 2011)

TMC has 120 degree or 110 spread he is fine with one stripe. To make plants red it is about nitrogen deficiency as I've been reading lately, since I feed tpn 3x a week I do not have red plants anymore. When I was feeding only easy profito which has no nitrogen I could get them red.


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## GreenNeedle (27 Jun 2011)

That 12W = 175W article has come up before.  Do a search on it. I put quite a few details down on that thread but will re-hash a brief flavour of it in a sec.

I've long said that many of the retail LED units miss the advantages of LEDs.

Using a pizza as an example Do you spread all the little bits of topping out all over the bread?  or is it better to put them into 2 lines? or into 2 squares?

BY this I mean to make full use of LEDs advantages they should be well spaced out and not pushed into tiles or into tubes.

However that would not suit the aesthetics side.  People do not want lights that are the same footprint as their tank.  Even if they would get a better result for less power 

Now on the flavour of the LED vs MH vs Fluoro.

Like all subjects to make a comparison you have to be looking at an equal or as close to before you make the comparison.

There's no point comparing 12W of LED that is focused downward to 175MH that is unfocused with only a reflector.  Thats like putting 1 plant in the garden under a magnifying glass and the other not.

PAR data would suggest that you need a third of LED light to match MH for PAR and a quarter to match for PUR.

I would suggest that Fluorescent is a little better than MH watt for watt because you can use several point sources rather than a single one. A little like one advantage of LEDs,  This is why I always suggest that T8 is a better choice of fluorescent than T5HO.......because you can use more tubes using the same wattage and be able to spread them out.

I would suggest LED is 2x Fluoro.

Then you will get the naysayers that say Only X version LED or better is suitable and the cheap far east knock offs are useless.  That is pure snobbery really.  Much like someone being proud of their ADA gear many DIY LED owners are proud of their 'hi spec' renowned brand name LEDs 

Well my unit was built in January 2009.  Cheapo ebay China Luxeon 3 copies.  Still going strong.  Still growing plants.  Never had a replacement.   They can't be that bad but some will say you need Cree or bridgelux etc. lol

Do I have proof my spread out DIY is better than a retail aesthetics first unit?  No I have never tried them or tested them.  However I would doubt that the T8 replacements are a great use of the technology (see pizza similie above.)  The tiles are probably better as they make use of spread a little bit better.

But in my (untested) opinion the whole footprint and good spacing will win the day over the slimline aesthetic whether it be fluoro or LED and both will beat MH because of this reason.  This of course is PAR per watt of usage.

As a guide I have my 1.12WPG of LED 28" above the substrate and only use 1.12WPG of it for the central 5 hours of a 9 hour photoperiod.

As for TGM's reasons maybe they are experiencing what I suggest above.  However for them to make the comparison and find the LEDs not to match the fluoro standards they would need to be using spaced out fluorescents or much more power.  I'm not defending them at all.  I believe LED is far superior to other forms of lighting.

So in summary.  Are LEDs better per W for growing plants - There is argument. They definately are.
Are the claims made by the retailers of how much better they are true?  I doubt it.  Yes the actual LEDs figures may give these percentages/statements but the fixtures they are then put into negate a certain amount of the LEDs advantages.
Is any LED unit going to be worse than fluoro/MH?  It would have to be a very poor unit not to be better PAR for Watt.  The question would have to then be how much % better does it need to be to justify the investment.  If it works really well then spending 3x to use 3x less and last twice as long is a pretty sound investment.  If it is 1.2x then of course it becomes more of a moral question and not an economic one.

As for LED colouration you can get whatever colour you want from one LED!!!  The lights in the picture link below(click on it to see some more colours )are ambient lighting strips using 30 RGB LEDs per meter.  The give a nice glow behind the TV.  I can choose any of 30 colours and the blend the RGB colours to produce the chosen colour.  Its not that it can only do 30 shades.  However it would be a massive remote to put every incremental change of colour on it. lol.

This variant wouldn't be suitable for aquarium use though.  There are RGB LEDs out there that are suitable though.  I am just showing that LED is not limited to any fixed colouration.  And these are pretty cheap to boot 



Andy


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