# Little Shop of Horrors - How EI frightened the gardener



## ceg4048 (22 Jul 2007)

Hi,
     I'm not really a pond person but I moved into a house with a pond of about 1000 US gallons and it was a mess. Green water, green slime and huge quantities of what appeared to be hair algae infested the pond. The gardener, who had been "taking care" of this pond for a few years had placed bales of hay in the pond. I guess there is some old wives tale about hay being an algecide. The pond had been unsightly for years and the plants, a small bullrush, a small lilly and a couple of other species which I can't identify were eeking out a meager living in this swamp. Algecides ahd been used in combat but clearly a new strategy was needed. I thought, what the heck, I'll ditch the hay bales and just start dosing EI and see what happens. When I informed the gardener he was agahst because everyone "knows" adding fertilizer to a pond encourages algae. After I offered a few choice words he left me to my own devices and I started dosing.

This is the pond one month after EI implementation began:





3 months after implementation the lilly flowered for the first time, ever.




4 months on the pond has become a Frankenstein. I still have a little bit of hair algae but it's a doddle to pull out. The lilly had completely covered the surface of the water and was growing out of the pond and onto the lawn. I had to prune severely. The bullrush is about 9 feet tall and the gardener refuses to go near it citing it's "unnatural" size and appearance.




I guess these are weeds in the corner but I'll leave them.


 

This is a closeup of the vigarous lilly growth. It's a jungle out there.








I suggested to the gardener that he should implement EI on the lawn because I felt it wasn't green enough. He felt I was suffereing from obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD).

Cheers,


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## Aeropars (25 Jul 2007)

How do you do IE in a pond? I cant see it feasable unless you change  water in there. And the amount of ferts you would get through would be immense!

Incidentally the hay trick does work. Not any old hay but barley hay. Its good for clearing greenwater but wouldnt eally touch hair algae. Used it a few times in my dads pond.


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## ceg4048 (25 Jul 2007)

Well it's easy, or at least I take the easy way out. Dosing is simple as you just have to calculate  the water volume and ratio up from the standard EI dosing schemes. You don't have to add CO2 because the pond plants are more emersed growth than submersed so once the leaves break the surface they have all the CO2 they want from the atnmosphere.

You don't want to be changing water, and you don't have to. The water volumes are much higher so I figure the ammonia concentrations are lower unless there is a lot of leaf litter. If you remove leaf litter and dead insects/animals regularly with a scoop you can keep this in check. In this way it's more a combination of the low tech and high tech versions of EI.

A 1000 US Gal pond with plenty of biomass and a fair amount of sun would consume about 40 teaspoons of Potasium Nitrate per week but If you buy the agricultural 50 lb bags its really cheap. As an alternative you could also use the ferts sold for houseplants. A 2 Kg box of Miracle Grow will last about a month, and it's easy to dose because that size comes with 4 half kg sacks so I can dose 1 sack per week, more or less.
I've tried lots of different variations on theme. The trick is to be careful when using the commercial  ferts that have urea or ammonia as their primary nitrogen source, but even these will work better than not dosing and using algecides which do nothing for your plants. I would be willing to bet it works better than barley hay.

It's really incredible because the pond community are even more terrified of NO3/PO4 than the unconverted aquarium community. I just recently browsed a shop which, on the shelf there was no less that five different brands of algecides yet there was not a fertilizer in sight. People cringe when I tell them what I'm doing but my water is crystalline and theirs is murky with marginal growth. I think some pond specialist shops sell magic formula bags for something like 60 quid per kilo. I'm pretty sure it's got the same ferts, but (shh)  it's secret.

You're right that hair algae is really tough to eradicate in a pond without going over the top (I don't have that much energy) but I'm pulling out about a twentieth of what I was prior to adding ferts.

Cheers,


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## JamesM (11 May 2008)

Can Miracle Grow be used in an aquarium?


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## ceg4048 (11 May 2008)

Well, yes, any of the terrestrial fertilizers _can_ be used but I would only recommend their use in a pinch and then only on a well matured tank with lots of biomass. These are usually high in ammonia salts so you'd be playing with fire both from an algae standpoint as well as a toxicity standpoint.  I used Scotts 14-7-14 for a long while when I was living in an area where I couldn't find NO3 and PO4.

If you have access to KNO3 and KH2PO4 there is no point using Miracle Grow.

Cheers,


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## JamesM (11 May 2008)

Ah, ok, thanks. Still useful to know 8)


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## Steve Smith (11 May 2008)

Intriguing!  Have you posted this on any pond forums?  Would be amusing to see how quickly you get ranted at


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## ceg4048 (11 May 2008)

No, these people are plugged into The Matrix and will fight to the death to preserve the system. Pond enthusiasts believe in the nutrient-causes-algae myth even more fervently than do aquarium keepers. 

It's much more difficult in a pond because the lighting is unlimited and is uncontrolled but the same principles apply. I walked into a pond shop some time ago and couldn't believe how many algecidal products there were sitting on shelves. They occupied almost an entire aisle. Whatever space was not filled by an algae killer was occupied by test kits. Unbelievable.  I do share my findings with pond owners that I know though and the response is amazing, clear water, minimal algae and beautiful flowers.  

Cheers,


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## TDI-line (11 May 2008)

Lovely pond pics Clive.

So when are you adding the CO2 and heating cables.


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## ceg4048 (11 May 2008)

Oh yeah, the heating cables. Forgot about those...


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## plantbrain (13 May 2008)

Well, as long as you have high enough starting biomass, this is fine.
Once it's grown in however, you likely do not need to add so much ferts.

I'd go with more organic approaches at such scales, for small non CO2 planted aquariums, that's pretty much what you are doing, a similar approach should be applied here and for the lawn.........

I do organic composting + water wise irrigation because.....I live where it's hot and dry all summer and Fall.
No runoff gets into the storm drains, I chose plants that fit the climate and the location.

This ultimately reduces labor a great deal, and it looks good, I have far more diversity of insects and birds.
The same can be said for aquatic systems as well as the dry/moist landscapes.

Thus what reduces weeds in a crop field?
In your lawn?
In your pond?

If you add lots of Crops, lots of grass, lots floating lilies and grow them well and give then what they need...........it's actually pretty simple.

As far as the EI pond, use that water to to water the terrestrial plants.
I set up two large scale clients, one in southern LA with a huge 100metter x 6 metter deep bass fishing lake as a clear well for his palm growing operation. Another had a large koi pond, which the effluent was used for the landscaping with excellent results.

One of the goals is to develop a sustainable method, or at least as close as you can, that also saves $ and labor.
You can use Soil based planters, add at least 30-50% coverage on the pond in the early part of the year, generally Mar/Apr, then they will grow in and crowd out the algae.
If you add more ferts(Organic or otherwise), you will just get more weeds.

Consider adding some more fish to the system that are tough and eat the algae.
Flagfish ought to work and some shrimps etc, just make sure they do not get loose.

Raccoon's and birds are huge issues if the pond is less than 1 meter deep, shoot for 1.25 meters or deeper.
Also, make little platforms on the bottom to set the lily pots on.

The only thing they do the lakes and ponds I manage is really just plant harvesting and they use that for compost.
Generally about 1-2 month cycles during the growing season(9-10 months at leats here) they gob it out and add to the composter where it breaks down very rapidly. This can later be added to the lawn, trees, garden, other landscape plants etc. 

If you are a farmer with a pond for watering your livestock, consider adding Azolla. Makes excellent feed when mixed with soy and other grains. then you can use that manure to fertilize the garden, crops etc.

This minimizes inputs in/out of the farm, yard, aquarium, pond etc.
While not a large issue for aquarist, it is far easier than any other methods and uses less energy.

However, for landowners/landscapes, agriculture etc, it makes a huge difference.
Not just the bottom line, but in the large scope of things.

You may need to add some K2SO4 to the ponds etc, or some PO4 here and there, but most of the N should be used via green manures,/compost. It's not hard and last years leftovers are this years ferts.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Garuf (17 May 2008)

Tom you suggest adding shrimp, I live in an area where the temperature gets down into the minus quiet regularly during winter what shrimp could I add that would be fine?


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## Ed Seeley (17 May 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Tom you suggest adding shrimp, I live in an area where the temperature gets down into the minus quiet regularly during winter what shrimp could I add that would be fine?



The restrictions for temperate invertebrates are very strict for a really good reason to protect our native species (though in some cases this is a 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted situation').  As we have no real native equivalent you should really forgo the shrimp IMO.


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## Themuleous (18 May 2008)

You nutter Clive, only you would think of doing EI on a pond!   Good work, more evidence if it were needed that EI is quality.

Sam


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## ceg4048 (18 May 2008)

Hey Sam,
                   I'd like the City of London to try EI on their portion of the Thames. It's way too brown for my liking! New mayor in town though. I don't think he'd want to pay the fert bill.  

Cheers,


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## plantbrain (22 May 2008)

Shrimp are out, as are a number of algae eaters.
Likely could get away with Flag fish in the summer etc, even normal plecos.
However, I'd shy away from algae eaters in ponds.

There are some snails and mostly bugs that do this job pretty well, and the floating plants are very good as they do not get algae on the leaves anyway.

Still, better than a bale of rotting straw in your pond.

Regards, 
tom barr


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## gratts (11 Jun 2008)

Looks great! 
Our ponds all have clear water, but you can't see it because of all the duckweed!   

That lily in the second to last picture also looks like it needs splitting..


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## ceg4048 (11 Jun 2008)

Ugh..duckweed can be brutal.  The lily biomass removed was unreal. I split and re-split. It was easily 1/4 ton by the end of the season. As Tom pointed out I was way over the top with nutrient addition. I reckon if you get the lily going the pads will spread out and cover the duckweed.

Cheers,


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## bare bottom (11 Jun 2008)

How and when do you split lillys?

mines grown quite big now.

cheers

p.s fab pond growth by the way.


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## plantbrain (11 Jun 2008)

Excaliber could do the trick
A large knife, cut the sucker in 1/2, 1/4ers etc.
Choose where to cut to save the most leaves etc, the tuber root stock can get large.

You can sell these weeds also to the Lily clubs.
You can also make hybrid types as well.
Quite popular.

As you can see, you have very little algae and lots of weedy plant biomass.

Now take this a step farther, use the compost from the aquatic weeds to fertilize the yard, any landscape, garden near by.

Now, you can even forgo the KNO3 additions and switch to Azolla and add a little Chicken manure or PO4. Azolla is great for light blockage and it is easy scoop and add to gardens, and it's actually a better feed/grain amendment than soy beans(has a better amino acid content) for cattle, pigs, chickens etc.

Now you have gone all organic :!: 
I am trying to work with an organic chicken company here in CA, quite large operation to raise and sell Azolla feed to them, and they in turn sell me Chicken manure. I can also sell the Azolla as green manure and a replacement for N fertilizers which have increased in cost and as a sustainable N fertilizer for organic operations.


Azolla doubles it's biomass in 2-3 days under lab conditions, 4-6 days under field conditions.
So adding a 500 gram wet weight ot a small pond should have it covered in a couple of three weeks or so.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## LondonDragon (17 Jun 2008)

Could I use my tank water to water the house plants? Will they benefit from EI water? Just wondering


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (17 Jun 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Can Miracle Grow be used in an aquarium?



heavens no! all terrestrial feeds contain rather alot of NH4.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (17 Jun 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Could I use my tank water to water the house plants? Will they benefit from EI water? Just wondering



thatll be the best thing to do with it. I feed my greenhouse with my old tank water and everything thrives. 

I syphon my tank water out the window straight into a large water butt outside, then I use that to feed/water everything in the garden. Running a 235ltre tank, it very rarely gets below half full.

its quite fun having everything on a cycle.. water change > greenhouse > then feed your cucumbers back to your snails! much fun.

We should be encouraging everyone to recycle their tank water in this way.. EI is incredibly heavy on water supplies. lets try to be as green as we can!


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## LondonDragon (17 Jun 2008)

Matt Holbrook-Bull said:
			
		

> We should be encouraging everyone to recycle their tank water in this way.. EI is incredibly heavy on water supplies. lets try to be as green as we can!


Thanks Matt I will sure be trying that from now on and see


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## REDSTEVEO (18 Jun 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Could I use my tank water to water the house plants? Will they benefit from EI water? Just wondering



After I did my last rescape while my other half was away for two weeks, I did the 50% water change at the end of the first week. I thought hmmmm what am I going to do with all this EI water :idea: Usually when she gets back half if not all the houseplants are dried up and not looking to good by the time she gets back. This time I used all the EI water on the houseplants. By the time she got back the plants were looking so good I think she thought I had been out and bought new ones.   I'm still using this now and I don't feel half as guilty as before about the heavy water usage.  

Spread the word.

Cheers,

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO (21 Jun 2008)

Hi Clive, 

(pond question EI)

I have got a Moulded Damselfly 750 litre pond in my garden. It has got plants in, marginals, lillies and reeds and stuff but they never seem to flourish. The lillies never flower. I wondered if you could help me out with an EI dosing routine for 750 litres. I have bought the CHEMPAK PKN and Trace Elements from my local garden centre and they were dead cheap. The trace elements have got virtually the same if not exactly as the stuff that I got from AE. The only difference is that there seem to be some larger looking salt type crystals amongst the mixture that there is with the AE stuff. It cost Â£3.99 for a 500g box and the same for the 20x20x20 KPN.

Thanks as always,

Steve


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## GreenNeedle (21 Jul 2008)

Garden chemicals often have larger salt crystals in them due to the way they are stored and also because they are often a different grade.  Sam chemical and same quality but not crushed as much.  

They are either delivered to the fert manufacturers in bulk tippers (30 tonnes+) and dropped onto the floor in a bay ro they will be delivered in 1 tonne bulk bags.  

Then they are stored in warehouses or sheds where the normal moisture in the air can often mean that a whole ton bag becomes one solid mass and the fert manufacturer has to pass them through a pulveriser to reduce their 'grain' again.

With there being no need for 'dust' for the purposes of their products the pulverisers are set to a faster level and therefore you get the little grains mixed in with 'dust'.

I would guess that most of AEs products are 'feed grade' products in that they are pulverised to a much finer grain.  The quality and content of the product is the same but fed grade means that it is soluble.

I therefore get the pommel and granite out when I weigh out a new solution and even then some will stay at the bottom of the mix.  I then shake the bottle before each dose so that any undissolved particles become suspended for a few seconds whil I draw the syringe.

Andy


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## mick b (24 Jul 2008)

Hi ceo,

I have a pond, but have never tried EI on it   seems like a lot of ferts? but I guess it works as the added growth of the main plants, starve the algea (or shade it out etc).

Barley straw does work (green water only) as it breaks down, it releases ensimes, which prevent algea growth (green water only, IME).

However, there is another way (not saying better?) but an option, check out this link;
http://www.viresco-uk.com/viresco.htm

I have used this for past 3 years on a 1500 gall pond (gets 70 gal/night W/C from the exhaust of the Discus RO)
Apart from adding minimal ferts to the lillies (teaspoon of growmore/similar) it works well and is cost effective.

I also, drag out approx 1 wheel barrow/month (summer) of parrots-fern (or similar, don't know for sure!) which goes in the compost for the end of yaer mulch around the roses.

Cheers,  Mick B


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## ceg4048 (24 Jul 2008)

Hi Mick,
           Algae cannot be starved out. It's more likely that the growing plants shade the water, remove NH4 from the water column and feed/oxygenate the water for the bacteria. Green water is less of a nuisance than blanket algae which is persistent and is a tough customer. EI on a pond is certainly over the top, I agree, but the main point is that the pond plants need to be fed the same as our submersed tank species. I reckon both barley straw and that viresco product are illusions. The exhaust from your Discus RO is loaded with nutrients and that's more likely to be the reason for your success.

It's just an exercise to show that you don't need to spend megabucks for "special pond products" or to even have much pond expertise to grow great plants. One can just pop down to Tesco or a garden shop and grab any NPK+trace product, chuck it in and Bob's your uncle. No barley, no special humic mumbo-jumbo, no voodoo, just a cup or two a week of Miracle Gro. 

Cheers,


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## mick b (24 Jul 2008)

Hi ceo,

And I thought it was the Frogs!!!    , but tend to agree, esp with mumbo-jumbo cost Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£'s 

Same with Meds, for basic stuff, I use the pond stuff in the Discus tank, just have to check doseage etc, but in some cases, (skipping, the it's not as pure' comments') it can be 1000% cheaper!

Cheers,  Mick B


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## JamesC (24 Jul 2008)

I'm firmly on the barley straw side as it does work very well against green water in ponds. Not sure why or how though, but I've seen it many times. In aquariums people have had some success with adding willow branches to combat green water. I used to be quite against the idea of allelopathy in aquariums but must admit I'm starting to have second thoughts about it.

James


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## ceg4048 (24 Jul 2008)

Yeah I've heard about the willow leaves as well. I'm not sure I would go so far as to say allelopathy but it could be that as the barley or willow decays some type of toxin is released which the green algae are particularly sensitive to.  

I had to chuck great quantities of barley that the gardener had placed in the pond. After a few weeks the green water went away so there must be some set of conditions, or maybe the toxins dilute after a while.

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (26 Jul 2008)

I guess the barley/willow thing is similar to the UV situation for green water.

Meaning that they remove the problem but not the cause.  If you can prevent the cause then you prevent the cost of barley/willow/UV.

On Garden Direct 25kg bags are reasonably cheap.

Andy


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## ceg4048 (4 Aug 2008)

Here's a barley straw study link I found while trolling through the Barr Report=> http://barleyworld.org/barleystraw/Barl ... 0Final.pdf

There doesn't seem to be anything definitive in the study, but it appears to be a combination of things starting from the release of phenolic compounds such as lignins as the barley decays and possibly the organic carbon sources that help jump start the microbial colonies at that time of year which then compete with the algae for N and P. This would probably be a similar situation with the willow. The document makes it clear that the barley can help prevent the development of some algal forms if place in the water early enough but has little effect after the onset of a bloom.

Cheers,


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## mick b (4 Aug 2008)

One little bit of info, which may be of interest;

If you crush a bit of willow (green not dormant) and soak in water, the water makes an excellent rooting-mixture for cuttings! for all you organic gardeners (Normal 'dry' gardening, not for Tanks), so hormones poss play a part?


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## Lisa_Perry75 (1 Jun 2010)

I don't know if this is linked but the molecule Salicylic Acid is found in willow, which is what aspirin was derived from (acetyl salicylic acid).


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## dw1305 (3 Jun 2010)

Hi all,
Here is my pond (photograph taken on BH Monday), it has been run as nutrient poor as possible with rainwater and no added soil. The water went green initially after about a fortnight (for _c._ 10 days), but has been clear ever since. I get a a bloom of blanket weed (mainly _Spirogyra_ )in the spring, but that declines as the leaves of the lilies etc. unfold, but there is always an algal "fuzz" on the stones. 

I built it slightly raised, as the garden is on a slight slope, with the aim of not importing or exporting any soil from the site.  It worked pretty well, with the soil going into a bed, and the rock from the hole (It was "Bath Stone" - Jurassic age "Superior Oolite" limestone, from only about 6" down) back into the pond to make marginal terraces. The hole is about 3000 litres, but there is only 2000 litres of water. The maximum depth is 60cm, with a deep central area and shallower marginal terraces. I built a shallow shelf at the sunniest point for the frogs to spawn in (the pond is on the N side of the house and only gets afternoon sun), its at the extreme right in the top corner in the top photo. I don't have any fish or a filter, but I added a "starter culture" of sediment and Hornwort (_Ceratophyllum_) from an established pond. Everything else has arrived on its own, with frogs, newts, Water boatman, Pond Skaters and Damselflies  appearing almost as soon as the pond had water in (The exuviae on the _Iris pseudacorus_ is a Southern Hawker Dragonfly.).

The planting is a mix of native and exotics (I've used as many native plants as I could find). 





The water butt for topping up is just right of the door, and the bed with Candelabra Primulas (_Primula japonica_) is permanently wet, with the liner underneath. I've only topped up once since 2008.




I've got a lot of different plants, prominent ones in photo I haven't mentioned are _Acorus gramineus_ "variegata", _Mentha aquatica, Ranunculus lingua, Lychnis flos-cuculi_, several sedges _Carex_ spp. and _Mimulus luteus_. Best value buy was 12 assorted "old stock" pond plant pots forÂ£10 from the local Ma Aquatics, and a bunch of water cress from the green grocers (flowering just towards the water, in front of the  Primula.)

The remaining soil and rock went in the bed towards the house behind the Primulas, (with the flowering Aquilegia and a good yellow leaved grass - _Millum effsusum_ "Bowles Yellow" in it). I bought concrete blocks for the retaining wall, sand & cement and the butyl liner (I did have one jointed together from off-cuts, but I couldn't stop it leaking, the underlay was carpet from the recycling centre and I got the slabs for the path from Freecycle), the total spend was under Â£400.

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain (3 Jun 2010)

JamesC said:
			
		

> I'm firmly on the barley straw side as it does work very well against green water in ponds. Not sure why or how though, but I've seen it many times. In aquariums people have had some success with adding willow branches to combat green water. I used to be quite against the idea of allelopathy in aquariums but must admit I'm starting to have second thoughts about it.
> 
> James



I'm not, we did a lot of studies on it here at the USDA lab at Davis.
Spencer at al found no significant effects due to the straw, who wants rotting straw in their pond that lowers DO levels?

Add more plants and then there's no algae, about 50% coverage is ideal and fairly easy to manage.
Been doing lake management for 5 years and every lake and pond is and has been algae free since I got involved.
Excess plants are removed and composted, if this trade off works, then it's a very viable method, for smaller ponds, this is the case, easy to pitch fork the Hyacinth etc and add to the garden or compost bin or sell on line etc.  

Low maintenance, no algae, good cover for fish to avoid predators like birds, ducks, and herons etc.
Plenty of evidence shows this to be the case.

Allelopathy sounds nice, but as far evolution, plants compete much more amongst themselves than they do with algae, so why are there not more allelopathy occurring in between aquatic plants then? You cannot use the Evolution card and misapply it between plants and algae which are not in the same ecological niche, then not look at plant- plant allelopathy which are far more closely related niche wise.

I don't buy it.

Straw is cheap, it rots.
Many pond owners do like plants also, and would like some.
So plants are cheap and reproduce, can be composted and sold etc.
Work, well maybe the straw might work in some cases, maybe it's just correlation....... but one actually works well and in every case I've done, it's not the straw.
The water in the ponds is gin clear, this is true in Florida lakes as well. Remove the plants= algae/pea soup. Leave the plants, you can see 5-10 meters or more.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (3 Jun 2010)

dw1305's pond is testament to the principle of plants, not straw.
Nice clear water, full of nice pretty plants. No way algae can dominate that system, it's a little work, maybe some higher greens come in due to seasonal plant die back but that's temporary. Some pruning excess plants, selling them etc.
Plenty of emergent growth, nutrients are low.

So what would occur or would folks predict if he added say some KNO3/KH2PO4 to this system?
Algae? Or more weeds/aquatic plants?

What is dw1305's goal here also? More work and trimming of the plants? Probably not.
So adding ferts is only worthwhile if the plants are really strongly limited and growing poorly.
dw1305 cannot limit light too easily here, nor add CO2 etc, so nutrient management is about it.

The key is to pack the pond with plants and allow them to fill in and weedy out the algae while this process takes over.
Many add lots of plants in the spring, then weed good till the plants grow in, this is true for ponds as well as most terrestrial gardens in seasonal climates. End of March is algae time for us in CA in some of the ponds, so we get lots of floating plants in by mid March.   Other ponds are more like this one above with marginals and emergent species and require little replanting year to year(best and I honestly like them more). More diversity, more critters, more things to look at and easier to care for once established.

You can add shade cloth during algae season, you can do manual removal, you can add various algae cleaners to the ponds, shrimps(imagine all the CRS you could raise?), various sucker fish can clean the stones. Another product is sodium percarbonate if you want to clean off the stones, very cheap and easy to use. Raises the Kh though. The powder drops on the rocks and dissolves H2O2 and kills the algae and sloughs off the rock. Works really well for this, will not harm plants though, I've tossed it on many species without any effect. 

Also is a good laundry bleach alternative also, I use it for that instead of bleach along with borax.

I prefer biocontrol in ponds though, and plants are definitely biocontrol for algae. Fish/shrimp, snails can take care of the rest.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (3 Jun 2010)

Another trick if you own a pond+ aquarium, dump the old tank water into the pond.
This adds some nice softer water, with some nutrients and traces.
Tops off or water change(not needed typically if the % plant biomass is high).
Then take the water from the pond and use it for irrigation and landscape watering.
3 uses for the water this way.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## George Farmer (3 Jun 2010)

Great looking pond, Darrell! A real visual feast this time of year!

Thanks for sharing.


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## ceg4048 (3 Jun 2010)

plantbrain said:
			
		

> ...So what would occur or would folks predict if he added say some KNO3/KH2PO4 to this system? Algae? Or more weeds/aquatic plants?


Oooh...Oooh...(raises hand...raises hand   ) The correct answer is....More weeds!    



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> What is dw1305's goal here also? More work and trimming of the plants? Probably not.
> So adding ferts is only worthwhile if the plants are really strongly limited and growing poorly.


Which unfortunately describes most ponds - even the ones I see at garden centers, while their proprietors rabidly try to remove NO3. Tsk..tsk..tsk... 
You're right though, it depends on the goal. I was pulling out at least 20 kg or so of weeds per week which became tedious. After lowering the dosages it became more manageable.



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> The key is to pack the pond with plants and allow them to fill in and weedy out the algae while this process takes over.
> Many add lots of plants in the spring, then weed good till the plants grow in, this is true for ponds as well as most terrestrial gardens in seasonal climates.


And this sounds exactly like your standard procedure for aquarium startup. No surprises there!  



			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> Another product is sodium percarbonate if you want to clean off the stones, very cheap and easy to use. Raises the Kh though. The powder drops on the rocks and dissolves H2O2 and kills the algae and sloughs off the rock. Works really well for this, will not harm plants though, I've tossed it on many species without any effect.


Yes I remember you mentioning this some time ago. I had completely forgotten about it as I tried to source it in UK and couldn't find an inexpensive source. A definite alternative to Excel if it could be had on the cheap. Thanks!

Cheers,


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## mlgt (3 Jun 2010)

Lovely pics of the pond 

Im hoping to build something of the same size in a years time


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## dw1305 (4 Jun 2010)

Hi all, 
Tom wrote 





> What is dw1305's goal here also? More work and trimming of the plants? Probably not.


 Yes that is right, my aim was exactly the opposite - a pond that I could leave to it's own devices for as long as possible.

I wanted to create an "early successional" habitat, so basically a nutrient poor, sparse habitat with plenty of bare spaces. These are a habitat that has almost disappeared from lowland Britain, mainly due to eutrophication, and the very nature of them means that the organisms that inhabit them are mobile and able to exploit new ponds as they "form". All permanent ponds have a fairly limited life span so it needs processes to create new ones all the time. I aim to let this one mature for several years (that is let "seral succession" occur) before I "re-set" it, with a major clean out. 

Ideally I wanted a pond with more than one basin, so some areas would dry during the summer, allowing the organic matter to oxidise away and maintaining them as seasonally wet depressions, but it just wasn't a realistic aim in a small garden.  

Here is the pond almost exactly 2 years ago during it's "green phase", just after I'd installed the new liner, it had had some water in it for the previous 18months, but it was never water tight. You can't really see them, but the pond had an extraordinary _Daphnia_ bloom at this time, presumably caused by the explosion of the phytoplankton.







cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (4 Jun 2010)

Hi all,
Another couple, this is more of a view. The garden in the foreground is planted in the gravel (it was additional car parking when we moved in). I didn't improve the soil, and I don't water it.  Plants need to either establish themselves or be planted before March, or they tend not to survive the first summer. It is a bit "lush" at the moment, but I expect a dry summer will thin out a lot of the herbaceous plants.





Here is the back garden, same arrangement, limited intervention, no pesticides and no added nutrients.





It is the same ethos as the tanks, I don't want "all singing and all dancing", I want stability. The secret is finding the organisms for the conditions, rather than trying to change the conditions to suit the organisms.

cheers Darrel


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## paul.in.kendal (4 Jun 2010)

Hey Darrel, that's a fabulous looking pond - and garden.  Gotta agree on finding the right plants for your conditions, rather than fighting.  But it can take some time - after decades of gardening in inner London, I still struggle to accept that I can grow a completely different range of plants up here in cool, wet, nutrient-poor Cumbria.

And I MUST make a pond this winter!


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## BioLogic (9 Nov 2010)

I am amazed at how little people actually understand plants and how they grow.  Pond, plants, plants not growing well, chuck in herds of fertillizer because plants love the stuff, watch the weedy things grow, struggle with algae and all manner of undesirable things, pond a nightmare, algaecide, pond clean, and then back to square one! DO NOT PASS BEGIN!

Let us examine some fundamentals here. Tom correct me if I'm wrong but EI is based on a constant exchange of water as would happen in a natural lotic (flowing) ecosystem.  In a lentic (standing water) ecosystem that level of input would lead to eutrophication - and the consequent outbreak of algae and proliferation of weedy taxa.  A very important principle here is "range of tolerance".  All organisms have a range of tolerance - the upper and lower ends of which are stressful.  Obviously an assemblage of organisms, in this case plants, is determined by environmental filters.  So the in an ecosystem the things that are dominant (in terms of biomass and/or abundance) are those that are best suited to the conditions whereas those that are at either end of their range of tolerance are not doing so well and declining.  Change the disturbance or stress regime and the dynamic changes again.  What we do in an aquarium is create an environment and populate it with organisms that are comfortable in that range of parameters.  Then we introduce a disturbance regime that favours aforementioned organisms and lastly we shortcut the nutrient cycles and add nutrition for the inhabitants. However as stated earlier, we need to manage these inputs in some way otherwise we pollute the system.  Hence water changes.  If we don't do that the conditions will be outside of the range of tolerance for most of the things in that space.

Back to our pond scenario. Unless you are going to constantly add fresh water and dilute the nutrient load you will favour certain plants over others.  Fact.  I can see that the _Typha_ and _Nymphaea_ are having a jolly good time - because they are gross feeder and have long since outgrown their pots - they are looking for food and they now have it.  If you want a pond full of _Typha_ then carry on.  Soon enough you'll haver a pond that looks like any polluted waterway - choked with Typha and other weeds.  My advice?  Re-pot your plants!!!!!  

Cheers

Robin


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## ceg4048 (10 Nov 2010)

Hi Robin,
           Thanks for your comments. I think there is a disconnect though because my point was all about how someone who knows nothing of ponds simply applied the principles of EI on a pond that was suffering all sorts of algae problems and poor growth performance, and was able to reverse the trend in a very short time. The weeds that were in the pond were there when I first got there. I added no other plants, strictly what was there and was almost dead. I chucked in a load of fertilizer, which very few pond people do, I did not use any algecide and the algae disappeared completely from the pond. If I wanted diversity in the pond I would have spent the money and would have bought loads of other  plants. That was not my objective. The few plants that I did buy were actually aquarium species which I grew as marginals in the pond, then got bored with that and transferred them to the aquarium, where they grew submersed as expected. So I never returned to square one. My total yield was somewhere on the order of a quarter ton of biomass.



			
				BioLogic said:
			
		

> Let us examine some fundamentals here...


Yes! Lets! 


			
				BioLogic said:
			
		

> correct me if I'm wrong but EI is based on a constant exchange of water as would happen in a natural lotic (flowing) ecosystem. In a lentic (standing water) ecosystem that level of input would lead to eutrophication - and the consequent outbreak of algae and proliferation of weedy taxa.


No, sorry, this is completely wrong. It could easily be argued that EI generates eutrophication in the tank. Furthermore EI provides strong evidence that eutrophication in a tank, and in some[ water systems, is not correlated with algal blooms. The blooms are more associated with the level of lighting, malnutrition and in some cases, Ammonification.



			
				BioLogic said:
			
		

> A very important principle here is "range of tolerance". All organisms have a range of tolerance - the upper and lower ends of which are stressful. Obviously an assemblage of organisms, in this case plants, is determined by environmental filters. So the in an ecosystem the things that are dominant (in terms of biomass and/or abundance) are those that are best suited to the conditions whereas those that are at either end of their range of tolerance are not doing so well and declining. Change the disturbance or stress regime and the dynamic changes again. What we do in an aquarium is create an environment and populate it with organisms that are comfortable in that range of parameters. Then we introduce a disturbance regime that favours aforementioned organisms and lastly we shortcut the nutrient cycles and add nutrition for the inhabitants. However as stated earlier, we need to manage these inputs in some way otherwise we pollute the system.


Well, it certainly wouldn't make sense to produce a system outside the tolerance range of the inhabitants. Managing a high tech tank means controlling that tolerance range. This includes a control of the nutrient loading, which is orders of magnitude below the level of intolerance, and managing the CO2 levels, which has a very narrow tolerance limit. All our collective experience illustrates that by a wide margin, it is the CO2 levels that do the damage if poorly controlled. EI nutrient levels do not directly produce toxic effects. Additionally, eutrophic tank water results in increased metabolism and therefore produces high levels of organic waste by the plants themselves. It is this organic waste that is the pollution in the tank, not the nutrient levels, therefore in the typical EI dosing scheme, large water changes are beneficial to both flora and fauna.



			
				BioLogic said:
			
		

> Back to our pond scenario. Unless you are going to constantly add fresh water and dilute the nutrient load you will favour certain plants over others. Fact. I can see that the Typha and Nymphaea are having a jolly good time - because they are gross feeder and have long since outgrown their pots - they are looking for food and they now have it. If you want a pond full of Typha then carry on. Soon enough you'll haver a pond that looks like any polluted waterway - choked with Typha and other weeds. My advice? Re-pot your plants!!!!!


Well, in my pond, there was no way I intended to perform water changes. This was not a big deal because the level of plant growth blocked most of the light from entering the water and so this stifled algal growth. There was zero algae in this eutrophic system.

Now, you mention favoring some plants over others. That might be true if we consider the hundreds of thousands of plants on Earth and the varied ecosystems they inhabit. But I didn't have a hundred thousand species in the pond. I only had a few, and the few that were there were not bothered at all.

I think that there is a misconception from the academic community about why people grow plants. The hobby of horticulture has to do with aesthetic appeal, not with redressing the balance of nature. The average person does not really care about what is favored and what is not. Everyone has a different idea as to what is pretty and what they want from their tank or pond. For example, I hate duckweed but many people grow it intentionally.  It's a choice each hobbyist makes.

The total available number of submersible aquatic aquarium plants is somewhere around 300. This is a very small number, and of those, only a handful of them might actually require a low nutrient loading. In fact I can't really think of any, although there are some forms, such as ferns and mosses, which originate from low nutrient systems, but which actually do fine in a high nutrient regime.

As far as the tank, which is not nature, and from a horticulture perspective, there is plenty of diversity. Look at this. The tank has over 70 species of aquatic plants and this particular tank was hypereutrophic. I had no difficulty whatsoever and there was no algae. This does not look like a polluted waterway. Nutrients don't cause algae, at least, not in our tanks or ponds. The principles of EI are discussed in the Tutorials section of the forum.


 

Cheers,


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## dw1305 (11 Nov 2010)

Hi all,
Hi Robin, as you've probably found out by now some members of this forum have found, via experimentation, a method "EI" that works for them. 

But we do have a range of opinions, and we don't all subscribe to exactly the same views. As you may have gathered from my earlier posts in this thread, my methods and conclusions (for both aquariums and ponds) differ some what from those of both "ceg4048" (Clive) and "Plantbrain" (Tom). It isn't necessarily a case of "right & wrong", it is just a case of a difference in interpretation. I may not always agree with them, but they have a position that they are willing to defend with both documentary evidence and a reasoned scientific argument.

I can honestly say that despite our differences in opinion, I've learned a great deal from the posters on this forum, and this has proved enormously useful to both my hobby interests and also my work.

If you've got time you might like to read a few of the older posts that have covered some of this area.
<http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8834> & <http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8592>

cheers Darrel


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## roland123 (24 Dec 2010)

Awesome!! Itâ€™s just what I need!! Thanks!....


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## nayr88 (25 Jan 2011)

sorry i only just see this. what a beut!!!

and clive...that post even burned me!! haha 

keep it up mate, your doing somethng right


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## REDSTEVEO (21 Apr 2012)

Hi this is for CEG if he is still about. I want to start EI Dosing in my pond which is about 3,000 litres. I have two filters running with a combined total UV of 20 watts. One filter is a 10,000 litre Pond 1 pressure filter and the other is a 5,000 litre Biomax gravity filter. I have got a total of 14 fish which consist of 4 x 10 inch Koi Carp and 10 mixed goldfish. I have just invested in a pond vacuum and given the pond a good clean. The plants consist of a couple of water lillies in baskets and some general oxygenating plants.

The pond is over a metre deep and does not get a lot of sun because of the surrounding wall.

Here is what it started off like when it was being built.

















These are pictures from last year.





















The plants have never really done much good in the two years that I have had them so I am thinking of trying the EI using the dry powders from CHEMPAK. What I need to know if possible is the quantities of NPK and Trace mix I will need to use.

Because of the depth I can not add marginal plants unless I raise them up somehow, so I get nothing growing out of the water. I also would like to somehow fix plants to the back wall to soften it up a bit.

I am also thinking of adding shallow baskets all over the bottom of the pond with pond grasses.

Any advice from anyone would be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2012)

Hi Steve,
              Well a 3000L tank is about 75X bigger than the reference 20G, so you'd need about 5 teaspoons each of KH2PO4 and traces. You should have plenty of Nitrogen available from fish waste and food so I'd only dose about a third of the KNO3, which, to make it easy would be also 5 teaspoons instead of 15. You only need to do this once a week or so since this counts as non-CO2. Obviously you want to make sure that your Chempak mix is ammonia and urea free.

If you were totally freaked out about nutrients in the water column then you could simply do home made root tabs by wrapping the nutrients in clay balls and pushing them into the pots.

Cheers,


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## REDSTEVEO (22 Apr 2012)

Thanks very much. Sadly the Chempak high nitrogen mix that I was thinking of using has got loads of Urea and Ammonia based chemicals so I don't think I will be using this product after all.   

I will have a browse through the dry powders in our local garden centre this week and see if I can find something suitable, unless anyone else has any suggestions. I have got some concentrated Miracle Grow Liquid but there are no details on the bottle of what is in it. :? 

Thanks again,

Steve

ps just found this ont Tinternet for Miraclegro:

Ammonium phosphate  
Urea   
Potassium chloride 
Boric acid 
Copper sulfate 
Iron EDTA 
Magnesium EDTA 
Urea phosphate  
Zinc sulfate 
Sodium molybdate 

The percentage breakdown is as follows: 
Total Nitrogen: 15% 
9.2% urea nitrogen  
5.8% ammonium nitrogen   

Available phosphate: 30%; 
Boron: .02%; 
Soluble Potash: 15%; 
Copper: .07%; 
Iron: .15%; 
Manganese: .05%; 
Molybdenum: .00005%; 
Zinc: .06%.


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## ceg4048 (22 Apr 2012)

Steve,
        Check this out=>Garden Direct KNO3 Get the 25KG bag and you're set for years to come.   They also do PO4 and traces for cheap.

I would be shocked if there were any garden ferts that did not have NH4/urea. Gardens don't have to worry too much about toxicity and these N forms are way cheaper than Nitrate salts, so it wouldn't makes sense for them to not use these.

Cheers,


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## REDSTEVEO (24 Apr 2012)

Thanks very much, I checked it out!! Is there anything else you used on your pond like trace elements or is that going over the top.

I will probably go for the 25kg bag as you suggested and if things are not working out in the pond I can always use it in the garden.  

Hail to the CEG or is it Clive?  

Steve


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## ceg4048 (24 Apr 2012)

Hi Steve,
            It either or both mate.  

Garden Direct do a trace powder as well as a potassium phosphate so just search for those on the site. I didn't have any fish so it was easy to use a standard all in one product like Miracle Grow which does contain NH4/Urea. As usual, these three powders should cover you but depending on your water supply you may need to throw in a dozen teaspoons of Epsom Salts. Everything is exactly the same as with tanks. Add the MgSO4 and see if it makes a difference.

Cheers,


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## REDSTEVEO (26 Apr 2012)

Thanks Clive, will do.

When I see some results I will post the before and after pictures.  

Steve


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## REDSTEVEO (25 Feb 2014)

Hey Clive why can't we see the pictures of your pond at the beginning of this thread anymore?

Steve


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## ceg4048 (26 Feb 2014)

Drat!
 Those were on a different server and the numbskulls went out of business. I've loaded as much as I can recall. May not be exactly the same ones, but close enough to get the general idea. Sorry.

Cheers,


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## Edvet (26 Feb 2014)

Lol, just noticed this thread. Ofcourse great job as always,Clive!


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## REDSTEVEO (26 Feb 2014)

WOWW I forgot how awesome this pond was, truly stunning lily growth! Thanks for putting these photographs back up Clive. As usual it provides inspiration and something for us to aspire to.

Cheers,

Steve


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## kirk (23 Mar 2014)

I will come back and read all this properly, that pond is unbelievable loverly job.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (9 Feb 2016)

I'm considering dosing my pond with generous nutrients this year to see what happens.

My pond is, I believe, about 1000 litres (based on how long it took to fill, together with a quick measurement of the tap flow rate). It's a wildlife-only tank with no fish. I dug the pond in August 2014, and in the spring of 2015 it had newts and frogs breeding in it. It also had plenty of dragonfly and damselfly nymphs.

It has a water lilly, some water forget-me-not, and various other marginal plants - most of which grew fairly reasonably through 2015. But I did have green cotton-wool algae that I was constantly fishing out by twiddling a cane in the water. I'd like to see if I can really turbo-charge the plants and keep the algae at bay this year.

So what dosage should I use? Full-on EI as you would for a high-tech tank, or a slightly throttled-back version to account for the lack of water changes and no CO2?

Also, one needs to take account of the seasonal nature of a pond; when would you start dosing? Would you ramp-up the fertiliser dosage or just jump in with the full amount?

I'm assuming there'd be no danger to frogs, newts and insect larvae? It would be a shame not to have them, but if the plants grow well it should benefit them.


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## darren636 (9 Feb 2016)

You'll find the pond plants will be much more vigorous in their second year.

I use tnc substrate plugs and the plants go beserk.

You can't beat a wildlife pond.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (9 Feb 2016)

darren636 said:


> You can't beat a wildlife pond.


Totally agree!  Digging a pond has been the most rewarding thing I've done in life for years!


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## darren636 (9 Feb 2016)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Totally agree!  Digging a pond has been the most rewarding thing I've done in life for years!



Unfortunately, our wildlife pond ended up turning into a 6' deep koi pond, with a shallow section for plants and fry, the fish demolish the plants every spring but I still get plenty of dragonfly and damsels emerging on a sunny morning.


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## zozo (15 Feb 2016)

No need to fertilize the watercollum, use fert tabs (clayballs. cones, pellets whatever) and stick it in the pots. Most pondplants which you like to see emersed are heavy root feeders anyway and water collum fertilization almost always ends up in pea soup. Dump in a load of daphnia if you don't have fish, they will eat all green algea and multiply on it's on as long there is food.


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## woodster (19 Feb 2016)

Lovely looking pond, has given me a few ideas.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (25 May 2016)

Well, I have been dosing nutrients into the pond for a month or so now. I should have noted down when I started!

To start with I dosed 50% EI, based on my estimation of the pond's volume at 1000 litres. I did that for a couple of weeks, and tested the water watching for any rise in nitrates. Yes, I know lots of folk round here poo-poo testing, but AIUI nitrate tests tend to give "false positives" by responding to some other ions in addition to NO₃⁻ so the fact that I was seeing zero response means that I really did still have very low nutrients despite the dosing.

After a couple of weeks at 50%, I had zero NO₃⁻ indications, and certainly wasn't seeing a bloom of green thread algae as conventional pond wisdom would have you believe. If anything I was seeing a slight retreat of the algae, which seemed to be melting away slightly. The plants were picking up, although you'd expect that anyway.

So I decided to go up to full EI dose. I've now been doing that for about three weeks. Again, I'm still seeing no detectable NO₃⁻ readings*, which either means my plants are mopping it all up or perhaps I have grossly underestimated the volume of my pond! Algae has continued to retreat, although hasn't vanished completely - there's still plenty around the margins which I'm leaving as food for the tadpoles (which I stole from a neighbour's pond while I was looking after their garden). Before this experiment started I was "twiddling" loads of algae out using a cane, and last year that had to continue throughout most of the summer. But now, whilst I can still twiddle a little bit of algae out, it's much less.

* Actually if I test shortly after dosing I do see a modest NO₃⁻ reading, but if test the following day there's nothing.

The plants are definitely bigger and lusher than they were last year. In particular, last year the watercress was quite disappointing - it spread a long way but the growth was quite small and poor quality. Now the cress is growing much bigger leaves. I planted some marsh marigold about six weeks ago (so can't compare with last year) and that has quadrupled in size and flowered profusely. The one disappointment is the lily, which seems very late and slow, but then I haven't bothered to put any fert tablets into its pot which is probably a mistake.

My one concern is the lack of water changes. I'm certainly not seeing a build-up of NO₃⁻, and therefore it's quite likely that PO₄³⁻ isn't building up either - but what about organic wastes? Will I have problems later in the season? I could lower an immersible pump and water the garden with pond water, then refill with rainwater - but availability of rainwater in the necessary quantity will mean I can only do that a few times in the season.


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## zozo (25 May 2016)

Dunno bout the weather in UK, but the other side of the pond where i'm living it's still verry chilly, cold nights and chilly cloudy days, till now only had very little sunny days. My nymphaea's also still very dormant at the time, only got to about 3 floaters one the rubra, the other one is still sleeping and doing about nothing. And they do have roottabs with them already. Even in the deeper natural more temp stable ponds in my neighborhood i see the lilies not yet booming. My average water temperatur is still around 10°C, only had a couple of days of 18°C when the sun was kickin in.  They likely will com up once the sun comes out for longer periodes and the water temp rises.

Intresting topic, i never used water collum ferts on my pond plants.. Might give it a go this year and see what happens.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (26 May 2016)

Here's a picture of how it's looking at the moment. The heron is a just a metal statue!


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## mort (26 May 2016)

Nice pond Mike. Is the Ajuga actually in the pond? and which species it bottom right corner please?


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (27 May 2016)

mort said:


> Nice pond Mike. Is the Ajuga actually in the pond? and which species it bottom right corner please?


Thanks!

The Ajuga is growing in soil outside the pond liner and it isn't boggy, but it does trail over the edge and into the water and seems happy.

The large area of plant to the right is water forget-me-not, _Myosotis scorpioides_. It's a great plant and I recommend it heartily. It is evergreen, although some of the stems and leaves do blacken during the winter and it looks slightly untidy. Soon it'll come into flower, producing little blue flowers with yellow centres just like the 'normal' forget-me-not. I don't know if they're related or if this is just an example of convergent evolution.

Further round on the right there's a new patch of mare's tail _Hippuris vulgaris_, and behind that is a new patch of marsh marigold _Caltha palustris 'Auenwald'_, which has now finished flowering. In the middle, with a plastic trellis for support against the wind, is a _Pontederia lanceolata_, which should grow well over a metre tall and bear purplish-blue flower spikes in later summer. Behind the heron, the water is only a couple of inches deep and there's a patch of Summer snowflake _Gratiola officinalis_, and I've also grown some purple loosestrife _Lythrum salicaria_ from seed which I'm going to plant in that area.

To the left in the foreground of the picture is the large area of watercress, _Nasturtium officinale_. Right in the very central foreground there is some pickerel weed _Pontederia cordata_, which seems slow to get going this year, and also another plant similar to purple loosestrife whose name I've forgotten but it could be a member of the mint family because it has the characteristic square-section stems. There's also a very cute little plant called American water willow _Justicia americana_, which produces small white and purple orchid-like flowers.

There are no fish in the pond, but I have seen newts again this year. I didn't get any frogs breeding this year, although I've seen an adolescent frog in the pond - they seem to like staying in the pond for longer than the adults. As I mentioned, I stole a bucketful of frog tadpoles and these have grown fat on the remaining algae in the margins - you can often see the floating plant _(Azolla caroliniana)_ moving as they wriggle about below.


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## rebel (27 May 2016)

Wow that pond is so natural looking! something to aspire to.


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## zozo (27 May 2016)

Indeed looking realy cool. Nice little pond you got there, love the way it's setup and doesn't show any pondfoil or rocks to border it all.. Looks like a natural fountain in a medow.. 

Your forget me not is yet not flowering?? Mine is already for weeks.. It's indeed one of the neatest flowers around the pond.. Just because of their numbers and tiny size, it's a flower drawing you closer to look and then you see how beautifull they realy are..


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## rebel (27 May 2016)

zozo said:


> Indeed looking realy cool. Nice little pond you got there, love the way it's setup and doesn't show any pondfoil or rocks to border it all.. Looks like a natural fountain in a medow..
> 
> Your forget me not is yet not flowering?? Mine is already for weeks.. It's indeed one of the neatest flowers around the pond.. Just because of their numbers and tiny size, it's a flower drawing you closer to look and then you see how beautifull they realy are..
> View attachment 85628


Zozo, what a cracking photo!


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## zozo (27 May 2016)

rebel said:


> Zozo, what a cracking photo!



Thanks..  It's from a few years back with my first bog forget me not in the garden. Sat next to it for hours to enjoy it's beauty and take these pics.



This plant honors it's name, once you had it you'll never forget you did.. 

Also had the Hippuris and pontedera.. But iit was this still early spring.. Anyway sitting next to the pond sometimes is cirque du soleil, they even fly around attached like that.




Note the oxygen bubbles.. 




All worth while sitting and waiting..


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (27 May 2016)

Awesome pictures, zozo!

Yes, the water forget-me-not does seem late this year, as indeed do many of the plants in our garden. The U.K. had a very mild winter, but spring was cold with one or two hard frosts. Many plants seem to be weeks behind where they should be.


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## zozo (27 May 2016)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Awesome pictures, zozo!
> 
> Yes, the water forget-me-not does seem late this year, as indeed do many of the plants in our garden. The U.K. had a very mild winter, but spring was cold with one or two hard frosts. Many plants seem to be weeks behind where they should be.


Thanks..  Then you're UK climate is even colder than ours at the time.. And in my idea it's still very chilly nights average water temps are still rather low. Last year we had it even worse and everything started very late and a bad start shows the whole summer in a garden, didn't had much fun last year. But this one seems to do better again. 

Whish you luck with yours.. Looks already awsome and we've not even started yet..


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## mort (31 May 2016)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Thanks!
> 
> The Ajuga is growing in soil outside the pond liner and it isn't boggy, but it does trail over the edge and into the water and seems happy.
> 
> ...



Thanks Mike. Just looking for ideas for a new wildlife pond i'm planning. I have a very similar mix to yours in my fish pond but looking for smaller species which will cover the edge for the new one. The Ajuga is something I have lots of so will give that a go and the Summer snowflake looks interesting if I can find it. Its the smaller species I have problems with as my dog likes to pull anything grass like or small enough out of the pond and relocate to somewhere I can't find or alternatively shred it (normally only a problem for the first few days, I guess till it doesn't smell of us, but some things are just too irresistible and get "played with" until there's nothing left. Miniature bulrush fits that bill with her). So new pond will be going in the front garden where she doesn't go.


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