# Dosing Fe ( Iron ) ?



## Graeme Edwards

Hey guys, 

Got thinking about Iron. Back in the good old days when everything was black and white and people talked funny - What'oh. The only real plant food was Iron for aquatic plants. Things have changed some and I was wondering who doses it and how much is enough or to much. Is it even needed?

My experience with Iron have been varied. I know some plants need good iron concentrations for good color. 
Ive had occasions when adding Iron had cause, or should I say, seems to have caused algae blooms in various forms.

Ive started dosing ADA ECA (Iron) in the 1-2-GROW tank to get the Alternantheria to color up, and it seems to be doing the trick, but at 2 drops, this could be lean, or could cause me problems, im yet to see.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

Cheers.


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## Tom

I'd also like to find this out peoples thoughts. Tom Barr seems to be advising people to dose Iron more - i've been trawling through the Barr Report forums recently! 

Would any other Iron product do the same job as the ECA? I'd be interested to see if there are any differences when adding these products like ECA, Green Gain, Phyton Git etc on top of the basic ferts to see if they really are effective. If they are worth adding on top, then I might try a cheaper alternative (particularly Fe)

Tom


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## Graeme Edwards

Green gain *works*, it really does.Ive had dormant moss for months, then within days of using green gain, I got tight bright shoots. Its great for getting plants to bud up after a trim too. If you only buy one, buy this one.

Phyton Git ( stupid name ) also works. It acts in the same was as EasyCarbo on algae. Plants like Riccardia and fissidins take a serious nock when using Phyton Git.

ECA im yet to judge, and green bacter is almost a wish and a prayer, but I still use it.


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## plantbrain

You have a number of Fe chelates to pick and chose or make a cocktail.

DTPA and gluconates are the two other chelates not used quite as much as the cheapo ETDA.

Gluc is pretty weak and does not last long, daily or softer waters, this is good.
DTPA is excellent for longer term or errant dosing or med hard tap water.
Stronger bond, last a few days in solution.

Fairly cheap stuff in the dry form, add to DI/RO water, add some Excel/glutaraldahyde etc.....ready to go.

I can make some and sell it to you for ADA's price if you want  

Fe is Fe is Fe.
Does not matter if ADA has their label, plants all grow for the same reasons.
I have no issues with moss also, perhaps stopping it from growing in a few tanks, Fissidens for that matter also.

There's no "trick", magic in a bottle.

Dupla pull this same marketing scheme 25 years ago and with Fe.
A few folks have been around that long, and few post still.

Ferts is ferts :idea: 
Glutaraldhyde is ......well...you get the idea.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## viktorlantos

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> Ive started dosing ADA ECA (Iron) in the 1-2-GROW tank to get the Alternantheria to color up, and it seems to be doing the trick, but at 2 drops, this could be lean, or could cause me problems, im yet to see.



cheers Graeme  
You can try to increase the ammount for a real red, but slowly. For a small tank like yours algae comes quickly with a bit of an overdose. However real red comes with additional dosage to the basic.


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## Anonymous

Well alternanthera does get reddish no matter what ferts are used. 
Why don't you test ECA on Rotala Vietnam or Rotala wallichii?

They should get from http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2894/dsc03531d.jpg using ADA ECA like this http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8898/dsc03544r.jpg  (pictures from a friend's tank).



> There's no "trick", magic in a bottle.



Well there are some tricks Tom, even in a bottle, but because you don't do dutch 'scapes for you this doesn't matter.


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## GHNelson

Hi
A few questions for the uninitiated. 
Will dosing extra Fe cause livestock problems or algae.
Regards
hoggie


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## GHNelson

Fairly cheap stuff in the dry form, add to DI/RO water, add some Excel/glut

Ferts is ferts :idea: 
Glutaraldhyde is ......well...you get the idea.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr[/quote]

Hi Tom 
How much Excel/Easycarb/glut do we need to add to 250ml of Fe solution to make up a batch.
Regards
hoggie


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Tom is right, it is all just Fe. DPTA is slightly better than EDTA for the reason quoted, but there isn't much in it.
The iron in Fe -EDTA is very tightly chelated (it is the most tightly bonded ion) but that bond is photo-degradable, meaning that Fe ions become available in the presence of light. 

The problem is that a lot of iron compounds are insoluble. This is why we need to chelate Fe, if we add it as a chloride or sulphate, as soon as it dissociates it forms new compounds, with the free iron ions bonding with phosphorus to form insoluble Fe phosphate complexes etc. As well as DPTA/EDTA a lot of organic carbon compounds will naturally chelate some iron.

You can get toxic levels of Fe (especially at low pH), but it is quite difficult to do.

cheers Darrel


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## George Farmer

I've never dosed Fe as a supplement to what's already provided in a comprehensive all-in-one fert i.e. Tropica or Easy Life.  When I dosed dry chemicals I relied on the CSM+B trace mix.

However, I am currently running a Dutch tank with lots of stems - some red, so maybe I should consider more Fe...

Interesting.


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## Tom

So if I am understanding this right, you need to add DPTA or EDTA to dry Fe mix to chelate it. When it is chelated, it can't react with other elements, but is still available to plants? Or does it have to break down to be available to plants?

We did go through all this at college, but I can't say it would have been one of my favourite lectures - 4 hour plant lectures on Thursday mornings, mainly based on the idea that nutrients = algae and the best way to divide a Pseudocorus... yay. 

Tom


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## squiggley

George Farmer said:
			
		

> However, I am currently running a Dutch tank with lots of stems - some red, so maybe I should consider more Fe...
> 
> Interesting.



I'm in the same situ and thought the same. Ordered some of this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170530035589&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

although not quite sure how much I should be using


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## Graeme Edwards

Wow, your all getting way over my head here, not doubt many others too. You science bods loose 90% of people once you start using acronyms and talking techno babble.

Is there no normal way of saying how much is enough and how much is too much?

I wish a was I as as clever as all that science stuff, but hey, my strength is my creativity. 

Cheers.


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## Tom

Haha, I think I might have got my last post above a bit wrong too, but I'll wait for someone to correct me!! I've just ordered Green Gain though Graeme  I'm OK with hardscape too, but this plant growing thing...!


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## Graeme Edwards

lol. I know how to grow too, but some people hate it when you do it your way and it works. People love telling you your wrong dont they, lol.

Im easy, Im happy doing it the way it works for me.


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## Mark Evans

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> but some people hate it when you do it your way and it works



I wouldn't say that. I think many people think and know there are cheaper alternatives. that's all. I can do anything you do for a fraction of the cost.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> you need to add DPTA or EDTA to dry Fe mix to chelate it. When it is chelated, it can't react with other elements, but is still available to plants? Or does it have to break down to be available to plants?


 Yes, honestly it is easy enough and not too technical. If you start with standard Na-EDTA you can make your own FeEDTA, because EDTA has a much stronger affinity for iron than it does for sodium (or any other metal). Fe EDTA is not stable in light, so it will degrade, and it is only then that the iron becomes available to the plants (they can only take up ions in solution). Any iron that is not taken taken up by plants will tend to form other compounds, especially at pH7 or above.
It's easiest and cheapest to use Ferric sulphate as your iron source and EDTA. 

I would only go down this route if I had huge aquariums, this is  because buying the "trace elements mix" from "Fluidsensor" or similar is going to be cost effective for most people. A 100g pack of trace elements is only Â£5, and a kilo Â£30.

cheers Darrel

These are the recipes for those who want to go DIY.

"Get DTPA, because it is superior to EDTA as a chelator.  Get ferric sulfate, FeSO4.7H2O.  It is easy to work with because it doesn't absorb water from the air and become slushy.  Ferric chloride is horrible in that
respect.  Mix a molar eqivalent of the iron sulfate and the DTPA together. The molecular weight of the FeSO4.7H2O is 278.02, and the molecular weight of the DTPA is 393.35.  I mix it at 0.01 molar, about 200 mls at a time.
At that strength, 1 ml per gallon of water gives you about 0.15 ppm iron. Two hundred mls of 0.01 molar solution would contain .002 moles of the FeSO4.7H2O, or 0.556 grams(.002 moles x 278.02 grams per mole) and .002
moles of the DTPA, or 0.787 grams(.002 moles x 393.35 grams per mole). Dissolve both the iron and the DTPA, and then heat the mixture to boiling. If mold starts growing in the solution later, you can re-boil, or add some
hydrochloric acid, as does Kevin Conklin to his PMDD recipe.  By the way, I once tried to make 0.1 molar FeDTPA, but a good portion precipitated out, when the mixture cooled."

"By dissolving 75 grams of Disodium EDTA into 3L of distilled water. Once the EDTA is COMPLETELY  dissolved, you can then add 54 g FeCl3.6H20. Once this is completely dissolved, you can then make the solution up to 4 L. This will give you an FeEDTA stock solution of 50 mM. If you add this stock solution at 0.1 ml per liter you will end up with 0.28 ppm Fe (5 uM). The stock solution should be stored in a dark bottle preferably in the fridge (though this last is not absolutelynecessary). It is likely preferable to add the FeEDTA more than once per week ... I add mine twice per week and Im sure some people add daily ... the reason is that FeEDTA is not stable in light."


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## Tom

So if you dose daily, why can't you just dose FeSO4 unchelated? If you kept it in solution with distilled water, would it be that extreme of a reaction when it's added to the tank that the plants don't get a chance to utilise it? I don't understand this molar stuff, so am trying to keep it simple!

Tom


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## Graeme Edwards

Essentially, all we need to know is how much to dose and at what concentration. The reasons for dosing and the effects of it over dosed, or under dosed.

Im not really getting anything from the above information. Its getting to complicated.


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## Tom

That's why I'm asking if you really need to add EDTA etc, or if you can add Iron Sulphate straight to the tank. If it's that complicated it's probably worth buying a liquid iron supplement like ADA, or at least Easylife or Seachem


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## Lisa_Perry75

For the benefit of anyone that doesn't have a degree in science here is EDTA
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...OzCfbU&t=1&usg=__rQbDkuPIio2sRDHhez4Jt3hO_p0=
The M is a metal and can be Iron or magnesium or something.

Darrell, whilst I have the utmost respect for your knowledge and most posts are very very good, but people are asking you to explain it in a basic way and you've gone so technical and in-depth that tbh even I skimmed most of it!

To answer the question I_ think_ iron needs to be chelated so it doesn't react to form something that won't dissolve back in.
Analogy:
Imagine a person, if you ate your 2000 calories for the day in one sitting you would have to store some away (as fat but imagine you can't get this energy back) and then the rest of the day you would be hungry. In this case the food would be iron.
I think chelating - which is a posh term for binding really - iron 'eeks' it out so its available in little amounts over a longer period of time.

I hope this explanation helps someones understanding anyway


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## George Farmer

Thanks, Lisa.


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## Graeme Edwards

Yes, this is more like it. Thank you Lisa.

So, the question remainds. If you dose iron, any of you. How much do you dose and on what grounds do you dose at that rate?

At what concertration and daily or weekly amount is good? How do we even know what concerntration are in n
any brand of iron?
I can find out from a bottle what they recomend, but we know company's often under dose acording to their values.

Cheers for discussion guys.


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## zig

When you take out the rocks substrate etc how much water is actually in a 30l tank probably not a lot really. So I'd dose with that in mind if it was my tank. If i was dosing 2 drops ECA per day I would probably do water changes every few days as a precaution, watching things closly is obviously the best way,  but thats sort of where I would start. I have used ECA at the regular dosage (2 drops per 5l per week) and found it good but over do it and it can be problematic IME. Just my tuppence worth


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## ghostsword

Hi.

I have been following this discussion with some interest, especially as I dose a lot of FE on my tank.

I use EasyFerro, twice per week, 5ml each time on my 120L tank. I saw the benefits on the amazon swords, and now on my Crypt Balansae and L. Aromatica. So 10ml per week total, right after the water changes.

Took me 3 months to figure out that less than 10ml the plants loose the color and more than 10ml I do not see a benefit.

Two weeks of dosing, after a month of neglect:





Amazon Rubin plantlet:




Amazon Rubin:







H. Polysperma:


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## Anonymous

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> So, the question remainds. If you dose iron, any of you. How much do you dose and on what grounds do you dose at that rate?



Well I tend to look at my most difficult plants for deficiencies and I dose accordingly. Usually I found out that, using an enriched substrate, you don't really need to dose often than 1 time/week if you haven't trimmed the plants that week and twice if did. I use around 0.5ppm trace and sometimes, if I dose three times, I do it twice with trace and once with iron. After the water change I use Dennerle PlantaGold 7.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Thanks Lisa, that is a good analogy and exactly the point I was trying (and obviously failing) to get over. The answer to "_why  can't I just dose ferric sulphate every day_" is that you can, and that it would probably be all right, dependent upon the pH of the water and the amount of other nutrients in the water column. In Lisas' analogy it would be the "constant snacking diet".  Using a chelated iron source gets around this, it is the equivalent of a "good meal".

My suspicion would be that for the vast majority of plants the FluidSensor Trace elements mix - 8.4% Fe <http://www.fluidsensoronline.com/ze..._69_75&zenid=339f6b33dd71ec8014ed61da02db4b27> would supply all their needs. 

If you want to buy Iron chelate another possibility is "_Chempak Chelated Iron pH 6-8 powder" which contains 7% Iron DTPA. Making a solution by adding 3g to 250ml water will give 0.084% Iron which can be used to supplement iron levels by dosing at normal trace amounts_." from the fantastic "James' Planted Tank" <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm>, which also gives dosing amounts <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm>.

Finally If you do go down the route of making your own Iron chelate solution (from di-sodium EDTA and ferric sulphate & probably only an option for those with some chemistry background), you need to oxidise the stock solution (I use an air-line and pump), and then store it in the dark.

cheers Darrel


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## roadmaster

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I have been following this discussion with some interest, especially as I dose a lot of FE on my tank.
> 
> I use EasyFerro, twice per week, 5ml each time on my 120L tank. I saw the benefits on the amazon swords, and now on my Crypt Balansae and L. Aromatica. So 10ml per week total, right after the water changes.
> 
> Took me 3 months to figure out that less than 10ml the plants loose the color and more than 10ml I do not see a benefit.
> 
> Two weeks of dosing, after a month of neglect:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon Rubin plantlet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazon Rubin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> H. Polysperma:




 I am wondering if those who dose Fe ,and trace , think that by using water conditioner such as Prime that perhaps it would be better to dose afore mentioned the day after water changes?
 This product claims to detoxify or bind with heavy metals (12 hours-twenty four hours) and if this is so,,would not waiting to dose Fe or trace containing metals ,until the following day be wise?


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## Graeme Edwards

zig said:
			
		

> When you take out the rocks substrate etc how much water is actually in a 30l tank probably not a lot really. So I'd dose with that in mind if it was my tank. If i was dosing 2 drops ECA per day I would probably do water changes every few days as a precaution, watching things closly is obviously the best way,  but thats sort of where I would start. I have used ECA at the regular dosage (2 drops per 5l per week) and found it good but over do it and it can be problematic IME. Just my tuppence worth



You see, this is exactly why I started this thread. You say it your self. Over dosing can be problematic. ( I agree ) But why?

Why or what are the problems with over dosing Iron. I have found it brings on funny algae's. 

Is there a level marker we should look at when growing red plants? How much is the right amount?

Cheers.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Luis you are correct, for any water conditioner that contains EDTA/DPTA etc, the Fe ions will bump all other ions (including heavy metals) from their place. Sodium is the least strongly bonded ion and iron the most strongly bonded.

I've just edited this post, because on reflection I think this is probably more of a theoretical problem, as the ligands (loose chemical bonds) take some time to exchange ions.

cheers Darrel


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## chris1004

Hi,

Very interesting topic but how does HEEDTA chelator fit into the scheme of things? Is it the same as a DPTA chelator?

Regards, Chris.


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## George Farmer

I've just started dosing Easy Life Ferro (5ml per day) in addition to my usual TPN+ (12ml per day) in my 160 litre Dutch tank.

FYI 5ml Easy Life Ferro in a 160 litre tank adds 0.16ppm Fe(II).  It also adds extra potassium, but I'm unsure how much.

I wonder if the extra Fe (and K) will make a difference, as the TPN+ does already contain both these nutrients.

I wonder if the ratios of individual nutrients like these make a difference?  Clive, Darrell....?


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## Tom

I wondered about that, or even the Seachem one, but was put off when it said somewhere it had "other essential nutrients" in


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## GreenNeedle

Haven't read this before but it intrigues me.  Seems like a step backward in thinking.

I thought that these days we dismissed the red=iron suggestion.  Also With iron we understand that it is very quickly locked up by phosphate when it goes in the water.  Hence high iron and phosphate = milky water.

Just because you don't see milky water doesn't mean the same reaction hasn't occurred, just not in the same quantities.
How much extra iron can cause this?  Well just having high macro and trace dosing can (not necessarily will) cause this.  I have seen it several times in my low dose tank both with CO2 addition (thus higher dosing) and without CO2 (almost no dosing)and I back off the macros for a day or 2 and it clears.

In the non CO2 tank I am only adding macro and only every month max so if I put a little too much I have milky water for a few days.  I of course just leave it to run its course as there is no 'cutting back' to do on the ferts.  When I was CO2 enriched I would miss a couple - few days of macros to get the same result.

I guess many attribute it to bacterial bloom, but just stepping off the macros cures it which leans towards the 'lock up' argument.

Using better chelators will of course 'prolong' the availability before lock up but just how long does it prolong it.  Are we talking minutes with plain iron compared to half an hour with a good chelator.  It is shorter?  Is it longer?

Questions to be answered for sure but I did think the extra iron addition over trace theories had been long dismissed.

The lock up aspect plus how little extra it can sometimes take to get a 'visible' lock up asks the question how much of this extra iron is actually used in uptake if any at all!!!

AC


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## George Farmer

How does TPN+ manage to contain Fe and P in the same bottle without the clouding issues?


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## Tom

Chelating? But then it doesn't seem to break down at all - unless TPN+ can go "off"?


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## GreenNeedle

because TPn+ has very low levels.  Plus other acids and thingys.  JamesC would be best to explain theat conundrum.It may be the quantity that causes the problem.  If it were a constant we would be able to dose only one or the other.

However in answer to the original question here is TomB's plain and simple 'recipe' detailing his suggestion (post no 3)
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... light=iron

This is a very good thread on this subject plus the breakdown and even using different Fe/chelator mixes together dependent on the KH of the water.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... light=iron

I think it may well be that my first statement in this post is completely wrong and it may in fact be that Tropica is using a long term chelator to avoid the reaction  Its good to learn things 

I told you it intrigued me   Expect a few more links.lol


AC


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## ghostsword

My two cents.. 

Obviously I have not been keeping plants as long as most of you, so I may be wrong, but from my observations, I dose a lot of iron and the plants that are to be red, become redder. 

Also, I do a one stock solution, taken from JamesC page, and I drop quite a lot of Trace Elements, purchased them from fluidsensor, and I have no cloudiness whatsoever. 

Once a week, I dose EasyFerro, and still no cloudiness. 

Obviously I may be wrong, and something else is at play.


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## GreenNeedle

So in the space of a couple of hours I have proven myself wrong   Is goodthoug.  I am just as happy to be proven wrong as to be proven right because it means my knowledge and understanding is increased.

The overall mesage I am reading from Tom and others in these threads (and more I haven't linked to) is that they use a mixture of gluconate which has a very very weak bond and then different chelators.

The gluconate is readily available almost instantly on entry to the water but then is locked up very quickly.  However the  plants get their fed.  Then the other mixture of chelators break down at different rates.  The overall effect is like a drip feed where the plants get multiple fixes from the one doswe as each different chelator breaks down.

The suggestion is the gluconate is useless in a couple of hours where DTPA might take 2 days to break down.  Then comes in the KH.  The KH/Ph plays a part in the break down of the chelators so where you have a low KH the gluconate is usable for longer where when the KH is higer (for most of us) then the chelators are more useful.

I would guess this is why Tropica apparently use 2 different chelated irons in their mix to facilitate this 'pulse' feeding and also take into account different KH reactions.

So why not just dose chelators?  It is suggested that it is harder for the plant to take the chelated orin than the freely available iron so it makes sense to use this mixture.  There is not much time between breakdown and locked up so it 'pulses' the availability like snacking rather than having to be gorging on the iron before it is all gone.

This extra Fe addition would also explain why I and many others consider a need to ad more trace in a rhizome heavy tank.  These boys eat through trace.  However now I ask are they eating through trace or eating through iron?  When I used to have CO2 enriched I did used to dose 5:4 ratio of macros to micro where the 'guidelines' suggest 2:1.  Maybe all I needed was that extra iron.

I am quite tempted to get 3 coke bottles and get some DIY CO2 going here to test this thought (I sold the pressurised  )

I shall keep reading though..  I am finding snippets here and there of 'bonus' ,aterial as I read.

This is a very good link on this subject:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... rom-micros

And another for the DIY enthusiast:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... experiment

And one that confuses and seems to go some way to my original belief:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... lated-iron

AC


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## GreenNeedle

Any idea where I can buy ferrous gluconate in powder form in the UK? Will Folic acid tablets be any good. They contain some ascorbic acid.

AC


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## a1Matt

Here is another link, talks about gluconate sources and amounts to mix etc. : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9696&hilit=gluconate


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## GreenNeedle

Yup, nice link. The mix I am looking at from barrreport is 1 tablespoon CSM+B and 1 teaspoon of gluconate to 1 litre.  Just got to weigh up a comparison between CSM+B content and AE's orginal trace mix that I have now.

Also all the barbling I have done above and I notice that our very own JamesC has covered this a long time ago both on his site and on UKaps too:
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/traces.htm

and the thread on here discussing the different traces and their content:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1681&hilit=trace+comparison

AC


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I'm pretty sure the other posters have already posted all the answers:


> Also with iron we understand that it is very quickly locked up by phosphate when it goes in the water. Hence high iron and phosphate = milky water.





> because TPn+ has very low levels. Plus other acids .....





> The overall message I am reading from Tom and others in these threads (and more I haven't linked to) is that they use a mixture of gluconate which has a very very weak bond and then different chelators. The gluconate is readily available almost instantly on entry to the water but then is locked up very quickly. However the plants get their fed. Then the other mixture of chelators break down at different rates. The overall effect is like a drip feed where the plants get multiple fixes from the one dose as each different chelator breaks down.





> The KH/Ph plays a part in the break down of the chelators so where you have a low KH the gluconate is usable for longer where when the KH is higher (for most of us) then the chelators are more useful.


The cloudiness is caused by insoluble compounds (possibly the milkiness is calcium phosphate), and iron will both oxidise (with Fe3+ ions and precipitate as rust) and react with phosphate to give insoluble iron phosphate complexes. This is Fe availability against pH for a range of plant nutrients (it is in the soil so a more complex situation, but the same basic principle holds) 







This is the Fe availability vs. pH graph for the different chelators.





Ferrous gluconate will be broken down pretty quickly by the bacteria in the aquarium, releasing the Fe2+ ions, but their fate will depend upon the pH etc of the aquarium water. Personally I'd start with  EDTA (or ferrous gluconate) as they are the cheaper options.

I'm not sure there will be an easily available source of ferrous gluconate in the UK. You can get as tablets for the treatment of anaemia, but I don't know how expensive that would work out.

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

Maybe I am naive.. But wouldn't dosing Iron tablets achieve the same result? 

For example, Boots iron tablets have 14mg of iron per pill, and if we can have it, it should be ok for fish too.

It has:
Cellulose, Calcium Phosphate, Ferrous Fumarate, Maltodextrin, Hydroxypropylmethylcellulose, Magnesium Stearate, Colours(Titanium Dioxide, Iron Oxides), Silicon Dioxide, Glycerol.

http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Iron-Tabl ... %20Tablets


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## ghostsword

Ok, I found this, and it looks crazy..  but maybe someone can help in digest this...

"Metallic iron filings are added to some breakfast cereals and listed in the ingredients as "reduced iron" ("reduced" referring to redox chemistry). If the cereal is crushed, the iron filings can be separated with a magnet."
http://www.bodyminerals.info/body-minerals-iron

Now, the price of iron filings...
IRON-FILINGS, FINE 3kg
Â£12.52
http://www.abbey-chemicals.co.uk/index. ... n65kd8nt60


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## GreenNeedle

depends if 'Ferrous Fumarate' is any good for the plants to use.  Tom describes Ferrous sulphate in the link someone provided at the top of this page as 'adding rust to the water'!!!.  Many sources for iron but not all 'available'.  With those iron tablets they do have lots of other things in there as well so no idea.  Can't really go on what is safe for humans etc.  Human chocolate can be pretty bad for animals, grapes can be 'poisonous' to dogs and so on. etc.

On the iron filings yep, In one of the links I posted above I think the 'DIY enthusiasts' one but can't remember, Tom speaks about iron filings etc.  A little like the ADA iron block that you put in the substrate.  I remember reading somewhere else someone describing the ADA iron 'block' as being an expensive old nail. lol

I'm just enjoying a return to the good old days and waiting to see if I get any bubbles from this coke bottle. lol

AC


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## ghostsword

Crazy ideas..  

You are right, most of the stuff do have other things on it. 

Maybe the cheapest is to add some iron nails with the filter media..  LOL..


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## GreenNeedle

I just read the thread from the beginning and I've wasted a whole page repeating whats already been said. lol.  Bad habit I have there. _'MUST READ THREAD FROM START'_ he says whilst knocking the spheric shaped wooden object on shoulders with knuckles.

In short Tom's recipe was 1 tablespoon of trace + 1 teaspoon Fe Gluconate to 1 litre of water.  I guess that answers  Graeme's question 

I am confused as to the usablilty of ferrous sulphate now.  I know that Easylife Ferro is green so that I assume is Ferrous.  TPN is brown so I assume that is Ferric, however TPN+ is green so I assume that is again Ferrous.  My AE (Old recipe) trace is brown.....Whats going on.aaargh. lol 

Does it really matter which we use as an iron source?  Ferric/Ferrous? and if so as Ferric Sulphate is more readily available how much to add to the trace mix?

AC


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## GreenNeedle

This is quite a good mix for testing.  bit expensive for larger amounts though.  Has DTPA and EDTA mixed in together.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Chelated-IRON-8-E ... 27b46b632a

On a side note its quite embarrasing the 'pride' felt when seeing the first bubble come from the DIY CO2 setup. lol.  Like all those bad......err I mean good memories returning  2 bubbles per minute after only an hour and a half.........yahoo   

AC


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Neither elemental iron (iron fillings) or iron oxides "rust" will work effectively as an iron source. The only compounds that will work are ones which disassociate into Fe2+ (ferrous) or Fe3+ (ferric) ions in solution. The IP "ionic potential" of ferric ions is higher (about 5) than for ferrous ions (approx. 2.5), meaning that ferric ions are more likely to both precipitate out of solution and form compounds. Very fine iron particles would have potential for adding iron (this is what they use in the "fertilise the oceans phytoplankton" experiments), but I have no idea to what extent this would be true on the aquarium scale.

It is the problem of keeping iron in solution for horticulture that initially led to the use of chelators like EDTA.
Have a look here for the role of micro-nutrients, it is from a company, and deals with terrestrial plants, but  it gives a fairly non-technical review of chelation. <http://www.haifachem.com/download/files/Micro_nutrients.pdf>

cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Neither elemental iron (iron fillings) or iron oxides "rust" will work effectively as an iron source. The only compounds that will work are ones which disassociate into Fe2+ (ferrous) or Fe3+ (ferric) ions in solution.
> l



What you say is backed up by information found on the web, and also by the notion that if elemental iron worked then with so many ships sunk in the oceans there would not be a need to fertilise the phytoplankton, they would have all the iron needed from the sunken boats. 

This brings then another question. What is then ADA bottom long, and such things being sold on the market today? Or is it unrelated?


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Luis, I think the effectiveness of the iron filings would depend upon a number of factors, the particles used are very small. The details of the ocean fertilisation experiments are here: <http://marine.rutgers.edu/ebme/Hist...s_Fall2008/Week8b/Boyd_et_al_Science_2007.pdf>

I'm not sure about the "ADA bottom long" <http://www.adgshop.com/Iron_Bottom_Long_p/104-102.htm> your post was the first time I've heard of it. My suspicion would be that a slow release form of Osmocote would be a lot more cost effective. What about this as an alternative? <http://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Gro-Release-Azalea-Camellia-Rhododendron/dp/B001880UGM>

Personally if I was concerned that my plants weren't getting enough iron (which is possible at high pH/KH), I'd dose FeEDTA on a daily basis. You could buy 50g FeEDTA for about Â£3 on Ebay. <http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Chelated-IRON-13-Fe-EDTA-Aquarium-Fertilizer-/170530035589>.  (Probably from <http://www.solufeed.com/chelates.html>)

cheers Darrel


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