# adding micro and macro solutions



## Omegatron (24 Mar 2014)

Hi,

I have a question about adding micro and macro solutions (according the EI).

My macro consist: KNO3/KH2PO4/K2SO4/MgSO4 diluted in distilled water
My micro consist: CSM+B diluted in distilled water

now i have been told that you shouldnt add the 2 solutions at the same time because some ferts of the macro solution will "combine" with the micro solution. So is better to add the solutions 1 day apart from each other.

Now i cant rember witch journal but it was one from George Farmer where i was reading he was adding micro and macro at the same time.

Is it ok to add the solutions the same time? im asking because i recently started up my aquarium (again) and im doing WC every other day. therefore the tank is missing some nutriens on the first day of WC.

Thanks,

Arjan


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## ian_m (24 Mar 2014)

The macro phosphate can react with the micro iron producing insoluble iron phosphate which falls out of solution and is therefore no longer available to be used by plants which is why you does alternately. On saying that I dosed both together from a dual pump for months and plants didn't suffer. Now alternately dosing.

Why are you wasting distilled water ? I just use either cooled water from kettle (usually mixed with tap water as kettle too small) if I want the salts to dissolve immediately or tap water if leaving the container standing for a while. Extra Ca/Mg from tap water, might as well use it. EI is supposed to be easy...Weighing your salts as well ? Spoons lot easier to use, mine cost £2.99 for six, just leave in the bag, just as accurate and quick 



Omegatron said:


> therefore the tank is missing some nutrients on the first day of WC


Not quite.
Dosing EI is dosing in excess.You dose after water change this dose is enough for two days, then two days later change 50% water. If your plants have consumed none in the intervening day, you still have 50% dose left which is sufficient as you are dosing in excess. Don't worry about it, plants not missing anything.


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## Omegatron (24 Mar 2014)

ian_m said:


> The macro phosphate can react with the micro iron producing insoluble iron phosphate which falls out of solution and is therefore no longer available to be used by plants which is why you does alternately. On saying that I dosed both together from a dual pump for months and plants didn't suffer. Now alternately dosing.



Ok so it is better to dose them on a different day then. thanks for clearing that up for me.



ian_m said:


> Why are you wasting distilled water ? I just use either cooled water from kettle (usually mixed with tap water as kettle too small) if I want the salts to dissolve immediately or tap water if leaving the container standing for a while. Extra Ca/Mg from tap water, might as well use it.



Im using the distilled water because it was recommended on the website were i get the dry ferts from. I always make 480ml of macro and 480ml of micro (this lasts 4 weeks if i do 1 WC a week). At the end of the week i have added 120ml of both. So i can just aswell use my tap water to make the solution? Im not worried about the costs but it saves me weird eyes at the supermarket when i buy 10 bottles of distilled water haha.




ian_m said:


> Weighing your salts as well ? Spoons lot easier to use, mine cost £2.99 for six, just leave in the bag, just as accurate and quick



Yes i am weighing my salts, then i add them to the distilled water.



ian_m said:


> Not quite.
> Dosing EI is dosing in excess.You dose after water change this dose is enough for two days, then two days later change 50% water. If your plants have consumed none in the intervening day, you still have 50% dose left which is sufficient as you are dosing in excess. Don't worry about it, plants not missing anything.



After the WC i dose only macro. then i wait 1 day and add micro in the morning. The same day i dosed the micro in the evening i do a WC and start with macro again. I was told that if you do daily WC or every other day you need to add all the fertilizers meaning i add the entire weekly dosage in 1 day. When im back on doing 1 WC a week i will use my schedule for weekly dosage again. Now if i understand you correctly you are probably going to tell me i dose too much atm?

Thanks,

Arjan


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## kirk (24 Mar 2014)

Hi, just boil the kettle then let it cool before you add the ingredients as said.  I do have ro but I still use kettle water as I mix mine while it's luke warm helps them desolve.  If this is wrong someone put me right.


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## ian_m (24 Mar 2014)

Omegatron said:


> Yes i am weighing my salts, then i add them to the distilled water.


Spoon and warm tap/kettle water. Easy. No point weighing as what is your exact tank volume ?, did you take into account say 15% substrate, of say 14litres extra in external filter, you didn't top the tank to the top, you have very bulky voluminous fish etc etc. You see the sources of error could be +-20% your tanks quoted volume and you are weighing to accuracy of 0.1gr I bet . Just spoon it in. If you feel your plants might need more (how you ascertain this is by looking at them) use heaped tea spoons rather than just normal teaspoon (get bigger spoon ?). Remember you are trying to dose over, so plants always have enough. Due to pump failure I emptied 1 litre of macro into may 180litre tanks taking NO3 ppm to over 300. Fish didn't mind, plants loved it (probably) and my wallet hurt a tiny bit.



Omegatron said:


> Now if i understand you correctly you are probably going to tell me i dose too much atm?


Yip. 1 EI dose (alternate day dosing) is sufficient for two days, assuming plants consume 100% (which they won't). Thus after two days you may have 0% left, if the plants have scoffed it or 100% left if they haven't.

In terms of ppm (dosing say 10ppm, parts per million, for example to make maths easy)
If you have 0% left, changing 50% water leaves -> 0pp. You then dose back to 10ppm, all is fine.

If you have 10ppm left, changing 50% leaves 5ppm. Add 10ppm -> 15ppm
15ppm changed by 50% -> 7.5ppm. Add 10ppm -> 17.5pmm
17.5ppm changed 50% -> 8.75ppm. Add 10pmm -> 18.75ppm
Repeat this for ever, dose will never rise above 20ppm, again fine for plant and fish.


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## ian_m (24 Mar 2014)

Why are you changing 50% every two days ? I assume it is a new tank with fish ?

If just plants, ammonia is generally good for plants and filter bacteria so just leave as is ?

I have cycled new tanks with fish without massive water changes (bought tank & fish second hand) by dosing with Amquel+ which will neutralise ammonia (& nitrate so maybe not so good for planted tank)
http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/water-conditioner/amquel-plus


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## Omegatron (24 Mar 2014)

ian_m said:


> Spoon and warm tap/kettle water. Easy. No point weighing as what is your exact tank volume ?, did you take into account say 15% substrate, of say 14litres extra in external filter, you didn't top the tank to the top, you have very bulky voluminous fish etc etc. You see the sources of error could be +-20% your tanks quoted volume and you are weighing to accuracy of 0.1gr I bet . Just spoon it in. If you feel your plants might need more (how you ascertain this is by looking at them) use heaped tea spoons rather than just normal teaspoon (get bigger spoon ?). Remember you are trying to dose over, so plants always have enough. Due to pump failure I emptied 1 litre of macro into may 180litre tanks taking NO3 ppm to over 300. Fish didn't mind, plants loved it (probably) and my wallet hurt a tiny bit.


 
Never looked at it that way! thanks for this and yes my response was  haha.



ian_m said:


> Why are you changing 50% every two days ? I assume it is a new tank with fish ?
> If just plants, ammonia is generally good for plants and filter bacteria so just leave as is ?



its without any livestock for now, i am doing the WC every other day because i have some algae issues (started up 2 weeks ago).


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## ian_m (24 Mar 2014)

Omegatron said:


> its without any livestock for now, i am doing the WC every other day because i have some algae issues (started up 2 weeks ago).


I assume you have plants, thus require the lights to be on !! My mate cycled a tank, no plants or fish, but new substrate and filters and had lights on for 10hours a day and wondered why he had an algae farm !!!!.

Could try a 3-4 day absolute black out, followed by a clean and water change. Will certainly wipe out algae.

You don't state what your Watts and tank volume is, you could be vaporising you plants causing them to die releasing food for algae into the water. This is what my mate then did above, after having cycled the tank for a couple of weeks with no lights (and no algae ) bought some plants and promptly vaporised the plants to algae food using over 300W of lighting over 300litres. Was completely unaware that plants need carbon and nutrients (though it was mentioned in his tank instruction manual, but being a man didn't need to read the instructions....).


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## EnderUK (24 Mar 2014)

ian_m said:


> Spoon and warm tap/kettle water. Easy. No point weighing as what is your exact tank volume ?



I use scales as it's easier. Go to yet another calculator, type in 125l, measure powder to +/-1g amounts. If I use 125l then like you said, I'm over dosing anyway.


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## Omegatron (24 Mar 2014)

ian_m said:


> I assume you have plants, thus require the lights to be on !! My mate cycled a tank, no plants or fish, but new substrate and filters and had lights on for 10hours a day and wondered why he had an algae farm !!!!.
> 
> Could try a 3-4 day absolute black out, followed by a clean and water change. Will certainly wipe out algae.
> 
> You don't state what your Watts and tank volume is, you could be vaporising you plants causing them to die releasing food for algae into the water. This is what my mate then did above, after having cycled the tank for a couple of weeks with no lights (and no algae ) bought some plants and promptly vaporised the plants to algae food using over 300W of lighting over 300litres. Was completely unaware that plants need carbon and nutrients (though it was mentioned in his tank instruction manual, but being a man didn't need to read the instructions....).



haha yes i have plants, you can check my journal it should be underneath my name/post here. I dont think i need to do a black out it isn't that bad. I was wondering about the dosing when you do WC multiple times in a week. Thanks for trying to help though


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## ian_m (25 Mar 2014)

Omegatron said:


> haha yes i have plants, you can check my journal it should be underneath my name/post here


Nice, just (re)read you journal. Carry on....


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## Omegatron (25 Mar 2014)

I will, and thanks for the explanation about dosing


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## BigDaddy (25 Mar 2014)

When are you dosing?

Before lights on, as they come on, half way through, before or just after lights out?


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## Omegatron (25 Mar 2014)

Hi,

Im dosing macro solution right after a WC so thats 1 hour before light go out atm. Then the following morning around 7 am before i go to work i add micro solution. light go on at 12 a.m. and go out at 8 p.m.

When the tank is matured and i have no algae issues i do a WC once a week and add the mirco/macro solution always in the morning around 7 a.m. when i go to work.


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## ceg4048 (26 Mar 2014)

Dose whenever it is convenient. There are no rules for what time of day to dose.

Cheers,


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## BigDaddy (26 Mar 2014)

I was always on the understanding that it's best to dose in conjunction with the start of your photoperiod for maximum uptake


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## ceg4048 (26 Mar 2014)

No, that is an illusion of The Matrix.

The dosing regimen is designed to build and maintain the concentration levels of nutrients throughout the week. Plants are not waiting in a morning queue for nutrients, and they don't suddenly use up all the nutrition the day you dose. Therefore, as long as you are dosing according to the weekly schedule then it doesn't matter when you dose. Plants uptake nutrients 24 hours per day, not just when the lights are on.

Cheers,


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## BigDaddy (26 Mar 2014)

Ah thats good I can stop being so strict with it

I also need to change my regime too as my wc day which is currently a wednesday and ideally needs to be a Sunday to suit work and family duties


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## ceg4048 (26 Mar 2014)

Yes, a very important tenet is that the easier and more convenient a procedure is, the more likely you will continue to do it.

Cheers,


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