# Possible EI Micro Mix Product?



## Stitch (25 Aug 2012)

Guys,

I'm struggling to purchase CSM+B locally.

Do you think this would be suitable?






Based on these ratios could I just dose as normal CSM+B?

Sorry, I'm very new to EI dosing.

Thanks


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## foxfish (25 Aug 2012)

Easily accessible via mail order viewforum.php?f=63


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## Stitch (26 Aug 2012)

Hi, I know these products are available via mail order but I am currently living in the Middle East - Dubai.

It would be too difficult to bring in powders and have to explain to customs etc.

Based on this, does anyone think the above would be suitable? Are the element percentages/ratios of CSM+B known and could be compared?


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

Hi
Have a look here for comparison :arrow: http://www.plantedtanks.co.uk/trace-250g-3946-p.asp
I think it should be okay although a tad lean....I'm no expert..the Chemists will give you the okay later.
hoggie


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## ceg4048 (26 Aug 2012)

Yes this product is fine. EI does not care about brand names. Use whatever is available.

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Yes this product is fine. EI does not care about brand names. Use whatever is available.
> 
> Cheers,


Would he double dose that trace Clive?
hoggie


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## geoffbark (26 Aug 2012)

As Ceg says.

Just work out how much to add to reach fe target level. If dosing EI you want around 0.5ppm fe.

I'm sure one of the chemists on this site would work out how many mg per 100L of granules you would need to add.

At a guess i would say somewhere around 600mg per 100l but you need to check


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## Stitch (26 Aug 2012)

Hi guys,

Thanks for the reassuring replies.

What is the best way to work out the ppm levels of the elements?

Is there a formula or is it more of a test and see, using liquid tests? If using a liquid test when is the best time to test? Shortly after dosing?


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## ceg4048 (26 Aug 2012)

Well I reckon anyone using a hobby grade test kit for Fe is daft. Test kits are not going to tell you anything you can't figure out with a calculator. As Hoggie alludes to, most micro mixes have a 10% Fe content. This mix is only 5%, which is not really a big deal, just add twice as much in your recipe if you really feel the need or if you see chlorosis in the leaves.

Most of the powders weigh about 6 grams (6000 milligrams) per teaspoon. So if you have a 100L tank and you dump a teaspoon of this stuff in the tank you will at least have (0.05)*(6000mg)/100L = 3ppm. If you are dosing micros twice a week then dosing half a teaspoon twice a week will accomplish the same. Most EI recipes call for only 1ppm Fe per week so you could dose 1/3 teaspoon per week on a 100L tank, or, 1/6th teaspoon twice per week. 

This assumes 100% solubility in water, which you may not have, but it also assumes 100L of water in a 100L tank which you don't have either, so it all comes out in the wash. Don't waste money on an Fe test kit. That's the worst path you can tread.

Cheers,


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

Cheers Clive
 :text-+1: Totaly agree with Clive well said 
hoggie


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## Stitch (26 Aug 2012)

Cheers Clive, that makes sense.

The EI document here mentions 0.5ppm per week so I can calculate this now : http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm

Could you please help show me how to work out the following:
Nitrate (NO3) 20ppm per week
Potassium (K) 30ppm per week
Phosphate (PO4) 3ppm per week
Magnesium (Mg) 10ppm per week

I'm purchasing Potassium Nitrate, Monopotassium Phosphate and Magnesium Sulphate.

Sorry for being dumb but how can you tell the percentages of elements in these powders? eg: percentage of K in KNO3 and KH2PO4? or Mg in MgSO4 etc?


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

Hi
I wouldn't bother to much on ppm...have a look here this will do the whole EI dosing regime be it dry salts or a made up solution.
Better with dry salts as you have a 450 litre aquarium.
 :arrow: http://blog.fluidsensoronline.com/calcu ... ive-index/
hoggie


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## ceg4048 (26 Aug 2012)

Yes, you can use the calculator listed on the link hoggie provided. In any case, if you read the article, two paragraphs down from where you extracted those ppm values it tells you exactly how to achieve it for any size tank. Your 112 USG tank is about 6 times bigger than the reference 20G so just multiply the numbers shown in that subsequent paragraph by 6 and round to the nearest sensible fraction. On that tank you could easily dump 1 teaspoon of KNO3 + 1/2 teaspoon Potassium Phosphate 3X per week. Then, add 1/2 teaspoon of your Emerites trace mix 2X per week on alternate days. Depending on how hard your water is you can toss anywhere from 1/2 teaspoon to 1 teaspoon of Epsom Salt either 3X per week or throw the whole weeks supply in after the water change.

You then have to observe your plants. There are so many things that can go wrong which will affect how well the plants are able to utilize these nutrients. Poor flow or poor distribution, or excessive lighting can have adverse effects on nutrient uptake, so monitor the plants for deficiencies and make adjustments from there.

It's not that hard to figure out the ppm from the amounts you add, but only true geeks or anoraks really care. If you're one of those types then let me know and I'll walk you through it. Most people just use the calculators or the simple ratio that I just used and throw the powders in the tank in the easiest way possible. The method was made to be simple, not to be a tester or mathematician.

Cheers,


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## Stitch (26 Aug 2012)

Clive / Hoggie, cheers for the replies and help with the calculations.

These make sense and i'm going to give it a go. No need for the walk-through on the exact ppm calculations for now 

Can you please help me understand why Magnesium Sulphate is used? Is it just to harden the water? If so, why is this important?

My tap water is higher than 7.6 pH (my max value of the test) with a KH of 2 and a GH of 3. However this drops to 6.2 pH with KH 1 and GH 2, possibly due to CO2 and my ADA Amazonia soil?

I'm guessing i'll need Magnesium Sulphate but the calculators are saying nearly 9 tsps a week. I just want to double check as this sounds a lot.

Finally, I have 4 x 54 watt T5 Daylight bulbs. Hoggie has already recommended a light period of 6 hours but should I run all 4 bulbs at once or do:
2 hours : back 2 bulbs
2 hours : all 4 bulbs
2 hours : front 2 bulbs

I know it will take some time to get this right but i'd like any helpful pointers to get me started.

Thanks.


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

HI 
Magnesium Sulphate is half of water that's one of the reasons we use so much...in-layman terms.
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22215
Even in hard-water areas you may need MgS04.
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22154
 :arrow: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/deficiencies.htm
Cheers
hoggie


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

Lighting 
I would do
2 hours : back 2 bulbs
2 hours : all 4 bulbs
2 hours : front 2 bulbs
All aquariums are unique so its best to start easy on the lighting...it will cause you problems if you use the full lighting system...in a new set-up.
hoggie


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## foxfish (26 Aug 2012)

I must of missed the bit about tank dimensions & C02 injection but, can I assume you have a pretty big & deep tank


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## GHNelson (27 Aug 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> I must of missed the bit about tank dimensions & C02 injection but, can I assume you have a pretty big & deep tank


Yea through PM...450 litres a bit of a beast.
hoggie


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## Stitch (27 Aug 2012)

Thanks guys,   

Here's my current setup:

Juwel Rio 400 (450 litres) - 150cm x 55cm x 55cm I believe
Juwel Jumbo Internal Filter (1000 litres per hour)
Pressurised CO2 (5 kg I think)
50mm Do!Aqua Ceramic Diffuser - below filter outflow which helps circulate the bubbles
I've started dosing (3 times week):

1 tsp KN03
1/2 tsp Monopotassium Phosphate
3 tsp Magnesium Sulphate
Regarding the trace elements. The first one I mentioned is a no go. After mixing with water in a cup it turned into a thick black treacle mix. I experimented with more water but it was still dark brown when diluted so it's not going in the tank.

Instead i've found a product called Fetrilon Combi 2 which is a fine green powder and is a transluscent lime green when mixed - looks good.

Are these values ok? I notice it has a lot more Zinc. The copper is the same so that's good.





With trace elements are we only really worried about the Iron?
(0.04 * 6000mg) / 400 litres = 0.6ppm per tsp

So i'm guessing i'll just dose this 1/2 tsp twice a week.

Lighting will be reduced to 6 hours as recommended.

One final point, I'm starting to realise flow in the tank is very important. I'm going to stick with my internal filter for now and have been recommended by people here to look into adding some powerheads (http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=23040) hopefully then i'll be all set.

Please let me know if i've missed anything, still very new to this, only been keeping fish for 2 weeks    

Can't wait to see my Limnophila aquatica start to thrive - my current favourite  

Thanks again


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## GHNelson (27 Aug 2012)

Not sure on the Sulphur though :?: ...Clive may help.


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## Stitch (27 Aug 2012)

I'd welcome any thoughts on the level of sulphur. I'm estimating 0.2ppm per week based on 1.3% and 1 tsp per week.

This site appears to say some Sulphur is ok and yet another item to "Stimulates rapid plant growth", god help me 
http://www.yamatogreen.com/plantnutrients101.htm

The Fetrilon Combi 2 product looks a lot better than the first one. Here is a document with more information about it:
http://www.agnova.com.au/resources/Fetr ... -guide.pdf


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## geoffbark (27 Aug 2012)

Most people add traces to achieve the fe ppm content they wish. As sulphur is in the trace mix we tend not to worry how many ppm we add as it is normally enough if the fe target has been reached. 

Plants need and Benefit from all trace elements.


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## ceg4048 (27 Aug 2012)

Yep, fully agree with Geoff. Sulfur is a non-issue and is also an important micronutrient used in the production of amino acids, which are the building blocks of all proteins. Sulfur is also used in the synthesis of chlorophyll. Also, probably the most well known plant application of Sulfur is it's use in the important family of Iron-Sulfur proteins known as Ferredoxin, which plays a critical role in the movement and transfer of electrons during photosynthesis.
Here is an image of a typical Ferredoxin protein found in the chloroplast. In the center is a cluster of 2 Iron(dark orange) and 2 Sulfur (light orange) atoms, surrounded by other groups of organic molecules





Normally, there is plenty of Sulfur in the form of Sulphate (SO4) in tap water.  Because of it's abundance, it is not very often that folks run into trouble with Sulfur and, like all the other nutrients, adding more than you need is never a bad thing.

Cheers,


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## Stitch (27 Aug 2012)

Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for the very quick and informative information.

Time to grow some plants!


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## Stitch (15 Sep 2012)

It's been a couple of weeks of dosing the following EI on my 125g

3 times week:
1 tsp KN03
1/2 tsp Monopotassium Phosphate
3 tsp Magnesium Sulphate

2 times week:
1/2 tsp trace elements

These values were recorded just before my 50% weekly water change today:

pH: 6.0
NO3: 40
PO4: 1.8
Fe: 0.8
GH: 6
KH: 2

I'd just like to know your thoughts on the above values before I ask follow-up questions.

Thanks.


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## ceg4048 (16 Sep 2012)

Hello,
         The dosing numbers on top look typical to me. The numbers on the bottom are completely meaningless. What you have not reported, and what is more important than any of the data you have listed in your post is the condition of your plants. Are there signs of deficiency? Is there any discoloration? Are there nutrient deficiency related algae? You would do well to stop measuring things and look at the plants. They will tell you more than any test kit can possibly dream of doing.

Cheers,


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## Stitch (16 Sep 2012)

Hey,

I'll try and explain whats happening and it would be great if you could offer some advice.

Tank Info:
Tank is a Juwel Rio 400 (125g) with pressurised CO2 using a 50mm DoAqua! Ceramic Diffuser. It's currently positioned below the internal filter's outflow which blows the bubbles down and along the back wall. EI dosing as mentioned above.

Current lighting is T5 daylight bulbs and set to back 2 bulbs for 2 hours, all 4 bulbs for 2 hours, front 2 bulbs for 2 hours. CO2 comes on 2 hours before lights on and goes off 2 hours prior to lights off.

I do have 2 mirror reflectors for the bulbs but these are not being used. Would it be a good idea to put them on?

I have purchased an Eheim 2262 and currently working on how to integrate into the tank (I have a thread running in the DIY section). Plan is to remove the internal filter and just use the Eheim with a 1 to 1.2m spray bar along the back wall.

Anyway, things were going well until a week ago. I'm trying to carpet Staurogyne repens, along the sand parts and towards the front. They were in perfect condition and about 1.5 to 2 inches high. I then decided to cut them in half and replant the tops. Since then 90% of the leaves have slowly developed holes and then fallen off, from the tops and bottoms. I also noticed the SAE eating around them as well which is causing some uprooting.

Here you can see the leaves becoming transparent prior to holes developing and then falling off








I did have quite a few green spots on the glass which I manually removed around 7 to 10 days ago. Since then only a few have come back




There are also quite a bit of green appearing on the rocks








I currently have 2 drop checkers in the tank which I move around and they always end up light green, might take a few hours but eventually they go green.

My Heteranthera zosterifolia is in direct  flow of the CO2 and is growing like crazy and constantly full of bubbles








I am hoping the circulation will be improved with the new filter/spray bar but could there be something else causing problems? This is why I posted my liquid test values above.

Finally, here are shots of the full tank




Left side 




Right side




Thanks in advance


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## ceg4048 (16 Sep 2012)

Hi mate,
             Yes, this is a CO2 issue. Transparency and leaves falling off are a CO2 related issue. GSA can be causes either by poor CO2, or poor PO4, or both, so you you should not be using 4 bulbs until you fix the problem. Limit your lighting and you will be in a better position to help the plants to recover. Adding more reflectors adds more light which causes more CO2 issues. When you have CO2 problems the very first thing you should do is to limit the intensity of the lighting because light drives the CO2 uptake demand.

Since you have already purchased your  CO2 diffuser it's a bit late to be telling you this but on this sized tank it's always a better policy to use an in-line CO2 device. It is very difficult to distribute CO2 evenly and thoroughly over that much water.

The DC should be light green when the lights go on. There is very little point in having it go green "eventually", so it might help to turn the gas on even earlier than it does now.

H. zosterfolia is a weed and will dominate most environments. That does not mean that every other plant is as successful and efficient as zosterfolia. You cannot use this plant as an indicator of how things are in the tank because it is bulletproof.  Staurogyne is a much weaker and less efficient plant so it starves in conditions in which H. zosterfolia thrive.

Cheers,


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## Stitch (17 Sep 2012)

Thanks Clive

By CO2 issue, do you mean bad circulation or not enough CO2? I guess these are related and bad circulation causes not enough in some areas.

When I tested my PO4 prior to the WC it mentioned 1.8ppm. In your tutorial (http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm) you mention a recommended value of 3.0ppm. Could this be causing problems or should I just ignore for now?

The internal filter is only rated at 1,000 lph where as the new eheim is rated at 3,400 lph so i'm hoping this coupled with the spray bar should make a noticable improvement.

Your comments on the lighting make sense and i've changed the lights to 3 hours back 2 bulbs then 3 hours front 2 bulbs for now.

I'll stick with the diffuser for now. Plan is to put it below both the intake and one end of the spray bar. I'll start to read up on in-line devices.

Algae: So would you say I have GSA on both the rocks and glass? Should I be cleaning it from the glass or just leaving it alone?

Plants: So general opinion is improvements need to be made in the tank before Staurogyne will improve/thrive. It's just strange as this was doing well until a week ago.
I also have Ludwigia repens 'Rubin' in the back left corner but the top side of the leaves are refusing to turn red. They are redish underneath.

Thanks.


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## ceg4048 (17 Sep 2012)

Howdy,
    Yes, poor CO2 comes in different flavors as I tried to describe at the bottom of the second page of the thread viewtopic.php?f=19&t=23201&start=10

You really ought not to be testing for PO4. The test results mean nothing. Our suggested number is derived by calculating the amount of powder is added to a certain amount of water. So you should dose the amount given in the tutorial, NOT measuring it. You will cause more problems than you will ever solve if you hypnotize yourself with test kit readings. If you are not dosing as instructed in the tutorial then I have no idea what your number means because it is completely unreal. I can't stress this point strongly enough.

When analyzing the phenomenon of nutrient deficiency the idea of something happening overnight or just last week is always an illusion. You are just now seeing the _symptoms_ of deficiency but the deficiency has been occurring for longer than that. What happens is that the plant builds an emergency food reserve when nutrition is available. If conditions do not improve over time then the reserve is drained and that is when you start to see the damage which has been happening. Imagine your bank account where there are only withdrawals and no deposits. You'll show up one day and the balance slip will say zero, right? Would you conclude that this happened overnight? So what we need to do to maintain plant health is to continually ensure that deposits are being made into the account. H. zosterfolia is a miser, but Staurogyne is a spendthrift so you must deposit more into it's account to avoid running out of funds.

You would also do well to forget about red for now. Red is a very complicated issue and it starts with nutrition, so fix nutritional issues first.

Cheers,


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## Stitch (19 Sep 2012)

Thanks Clive, really appreciate your input. All makes sense.

I'll stick to the reduced lighting until I get the external filter installed and improve the CO2 flow, and will forget about the test kits and red plants for now.

Is there anything I should be doing with the GSA? Or should I just ignore this for a while? It's most noticable along the lower part of the back glass.


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## ceg4048 (19 Sep 2012)

Hi Ric,
          Well definitely remove the GSA by hand if you can. A microfiber cloth if possible or a sponge if necessary. Since it's on the glass you can use peroxide or Excel or whatever you have to get it off. Make sure that you are dosing the proper amounts of PO4 and even double the amount, just to make sure that you don't also have a PO4 deficiency. We never need to worry about overdosing PO4, so this part is so easy to address that it's almost absurd. 

We do know that the tank has a CO2 issue and that is much, much more difficult to solve, so when dealing with GSA, because it's not always clear whether the fault is PO4 or CO2, then the best approach is to "belt & brace" it by immediately doubling the PO4 and then by addressing the more difficult CO2.

Reducing the light intensity is a powerful weapon against all algal types because light is fundamentally one of the root causes of algal blooms.


By the way, you can read up on Red in any of the following threads:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19900
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11574
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=17965

Cheers,


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