# Belfast Sink Pond - frost proofing?



## chinwag (24 Aug 2017)

Hi,

Bit of a random question, but as this is the pond section I thought I'd give it a try!

I was given a belfast sink a little while back, it's about 24" x 36" so a good size for a small pond.

I'm just wondering if I need to seal the bottom as it looks quite porous and I'm worried that frost might blow it apart when winter hits?

Thanks.


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## zozo (24 Aug 2017)

If it is ceramic and flooded to the top with water during the winter it just might crack because water expands about 10% while it freezes solid.. All ceramic pots without drain, flooded with rain water i had in the garden and forgot about, cracked during the frost periode. I  guess there is no frost proofing in the form of coating etc. It not the frost but the expanding water in it cracking it. Since nothing much will grow in there anyway during the winter best safest option is drain it.


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## mort (24 Aug 2017)

Here in sunny norfolk, my neighbour has a few dotted around his garden full of water (he's a plumber) and they have been there for years. He's the kind of plant and forget about it gardener so they get no winter protection. I think they might be slightly sunk in the ground. The sinks are very tough and I think could withstand some freezing but as zozo mentions it might be best to drain it or even just cover the top with fleece or a piece of glass.


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## martin-green (24 Aug 2017)

I agree with zozo, its the expansion of the water the causes the damage. Cover it with what you like, it may work it may not, its dependant on what the temperature goes down to. 
We have had a flowerpot outside for many years (with of all things a flower in it) last year it split. So it seems to me you can either chance it, or empty it every year.


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## mort (24 Aug 2017)

Whilst I agree expansion due to ice is the problem, if it's anything like mine that I use for a raised bed then it's blooming heavy simple because it's so thick (1.5 inches if its a solid wall which i think it is). So that would take a hell of a lot of water expansion to cracking that. The problem with flower pots is they can let water into their structure which freezes cause the cracks, a solid porcelain sink isn't going to. 
I'd still be cautious as they are expensive to buy and can last for decades.


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## chinwag (24 Aug 2017)

Thanks for all your responses.

@mort - yeah this thing is a monster, weighs a tonne and broke our neighbours trolley when we got it out of the car!

I'd definitely like it to last, so maybe I'll look at draining it over winter, or wrapping it in heavy carpet.

The source of my concern was I had a story in the back of my head where people who'd painted gnomes and not sealed the bottom had come out in the winter to find they'd sucked up water and blown apart?! haha.

I agree though Frozen water is going to be a much more likely issue.


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## martin-green (24 Aug 2017)

chinwag said:


> I had a story in the back of my head where people who'd painted gnomes and not sealed the bottom had come out in the winter to find they'd sucked up water and blown apart?!



That's great news


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## zozo (25 Aug 2017)

Depending on how cold it's going to get.. But in general the safety precausion taken for frost is put anything at least with 80 cm depth. As is for ponds not to freeze solid and give the fish a safe place to hibernate as is for frost prevention for subterranian water piping. But that is for very extreme cold winters. The coldest winter i ever experienced in my lifetime was about 50 cm ice on the lake behind my house. And that was an average of - 18°c for weeks.

So if you are planning to dig it in than make a box, bottom and side panels out of 4cm thick stryrofoam and top it off with 4cm thick styrofoam lid.. But than again, if such a small water volume is covered and dark for such a long periode nothing will survive and it will surface again after the winter as a stinking muck, all rotting organics need to be cleaned out anyway. Some plants can survive a mild winter, but definitively need light for that. I even had some Potamogeton gayi survive in an outdoor tub last winter. 

And if you plan it to keep above ground, what i guess is your idea and what i would do. Why would you dig in such a nice ornament as a ceramic sink.  If you want to prevent it from water logging from bellow than don't put it with the base on the ground and elevate it a few cm with placing a brick at each corner so it has ventilation all around.. But than you still need to drain it. Would be a shame for such a nice sink to take the risk and find it cracked one morning, or just empty and leaking after the frost..


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## chinwag (25 Aug 2017)

@zozo - you're spot on, I didn't want to bury it - I got some reclaimed bricks and I'm planning to sit it on top of those and see if I can get moss or helixine to take in the cracks too.

I'm really keen to get started but I don't think I can even get it in place until about October because the intended site is covered in sunflowers at the moment!

I'll see if I can grab a photo of it later - thanks again for all the good advice.


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## chinwag (26 Aug 2017)

Here's a photo of the sink, just for the sake of sharing! lol.

It's 2 x 3 feet, still needs moving to it's permanent site, the plan is to put it on those bricks with some gaps for moss and other things to grow in.


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## TheBubblingScot (17 Sep 2017)

Not that I am a expert, but you could insulate around it  it with small straw bales if they are readily available.  That's a trick used by chicken and bee keepers to keep hens and bees happy over winter.  It's also a trick used in gardening to keep frost off plants.  As the straw is hollow it traps warm air and the thickness of the bales means they have good insulation properties.
Fleece is okay but may not be enough to stop expansion.  Same with carpet if it's really cold.

Perhaps a small water heater on a gentle temp just over winter would help, but I'd suggest you insulate the outside to stop expansion cracking.

Or if you can empty it (as zozo suggested), and have something to move it without breaking your back, then the garage would be a good place to keep it over winter if your really worried about cracking.

Then again I recollect seeing old Belfast sinks used as livestock waterers (alongside old baths) for years on breeze blocks.  But I doubt those farmers are too bothered if one cracks.


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## martin-green (17 Sep 2017)

.............now all he has to do is to get some bales of hay / straw. 

The other thing is,  it really should have an insulated "lid" because if it is full of water (Melted snow / rain fall) it could still freeze. (Wind chill?) 

I think we deserve a picture of the sink in its final place


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## zozo (17 Sep 2017)

Even with a lid, it doesn't make much sense to keep such a small bucket flooded during a freezing winter. To what purpose? Nothing grows during the winter anyway, maybe some mosses like Fontinalis antipyretica can stand some freezing stay green and survive and thats about it the rest dies off. But stil what can survive needs light to do that. So covering it and make it completely dark everything submersed will be a soaked stinky rotting mess after the winter and needs to be cleaned out anyway.


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## chinwag (18 Sep 2017)

Thanks for the extra advice @TheBubblingScot and @martin-green.

I think I'm going to drain it as @zozo suggested, but there's nowhere I can move it to, so the hay bales sound like they might be worth a look as well - I really don't want to crack it!

Seen a couple of planters in smaller sinks locally and they're both cracked so now I'm extra nervous of winter!

I'm just waiting for my sunflowers to die off because they're currently where the sink is going, and then we can get it in place - just in time for winter! lol.

I'll definitely post it up once it's set up though.

Our neighbour has just offered us a massive round tub too...can you have too many ponds?!


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## TheBubblingScot (19 Sep 2017)

chinwag said:


> Thanks for the extra advice @TheBubblingScot and @martin-green.
> 
> I think I'm going to drain it as @zozo suggested, but there's nowhere I can move it to, so the hay bales sound like they might be worth a look as well - I really don't want to crack it!



Stick some hay inside as well in that case, just make sure it's dry before you do or the hay will rot over winter.  Cover it with a bin bag or sheet but let air in somewhere. 

Will be a nice place for smaller hibernating insects too until spring arrives.  




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## ian_m (19 Sep 2017)

I cycle past a house that has quite a few Belfast sinks with plants growing in them, just plonked on the ground. Seen them for years under snow and ice and they are clearly not affected by frost and/or freezing water.

I very very much doubt they wouldn't be frost proof as would be a bit useless for use in a house if they cracked up if water froze in them.


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## zozo (19 Sep 2017)

I have a few enemal clay pots in the garden with soil and plants in them. Allready neglected for years and they never cracked, because they have a drain hole and stand a few cm off the ground on a patio block. The drain hole prevents the pot from filling with rain water and off the ground prevents the clay from standing in a puddle and soaking water up from the bottom. That's the only thing i did for frost prevention. I think that's the only thing you need to worry about and prevent it from flooding and or stand in direct contact on soaked ground. In my cousins garden hangs a functional ceramic wall mount sink already since 1920 still in use today as sink. 



ian_m said:


> I very very much doubt they wouldn't be frost proof as would be a bit useless for use in a house if they cracked up if water froze in them.



Me too, only if you flood them you are in risk, because freezing water expands and ceramic doesn't stretch..


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## ian_m (19 Sep 2017)

zozo said:


> Me too, only if you flood them you are in risk, because freezing water expands and ceramic doesn't stretch..


But if they had the slightest sloping of the sides, which they must in order to get the clay sink out of the mould during manufacture, then freezing water will not break the sink, just rise up slightly during freezing.


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## zozo (19 Sep 2017)

ian_m said:


> But if they had the slightest sloping of the sides, which they must in order to get the clay sink out of the mould during manufacture, then freezing water will not break the sink, just rise up slightly during freezing.



Not so sure about that, if that sink is above ground it freezes all around from the outside in. not slowly from the top down as a hole in the ground. 
I got above ground tubs of water in the garden for many years now and i've seen them freeze a lot of times by now. Large tubs freeze like this.



 


I wouldn't take the risk, you might not be so lucky one winter and it cracks only once. No more turning back from that..


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## mort (19 Sep 2017)

It's a sink so will have a plug hole. Can't you just take the plug out overwinter, draining it, that way you won't get water in it and it won't crack. I personally don't think there is any risk of it cracking unless it's full to the brim as the one I have is built like a nuclear bunker.


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## chinwag (19 Sep 2017)

Unfortunately we siliconed the plug in to make sure the sink doesn't leak!

I think I'll be draining it. It will be easy enough this year as nothing will be established anyway, and we'll just be planting pots which we can move out no problem.

My initial concern was the underside, I hadn't thought so much about the water freezing and cracking it until I saw all your responses when I first posted.

The underside doesn't seem to have any sort of enamel on it, looks pretty porous, but as @zozo said, if it's not sat on the floor, that probably won't be a problem.






@mort is right though, it's a pretty solid sink!

We're currently using it to store all our plants while we try and sort our wildlife pond out, anyone know what the pictured plant with the red on the leaves is?









Thanks.


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## TheBubblingScot (19 Sep 2017)

Could be a Chameleon plant.

http://www.gardenersworld.com/plants/plant-finder/houttuynia-cordata-chameleon/


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## chinwag (19 Sep 2017)

thanks @TheBubblingScot - that looks like it.

Interesting because I saw the same plant in someone's garden a week or so ago, and they told me I couldn't possibly have it growing in my pond!


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## TheBubblingScot (20 Sep 2017)

Well the link mentions it as a bog plant, so will be okay on the edges of your pond where it isn't completely submersed I would imagine.


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## mort (20 Sep 2017)

chinwag said:


> thanks @TheBubblingScot - that looks like it.
> 
> Interesting because I saw the same plant in someone's garden a week or so ago, and they told me I couldn't possibly have it growing in my pond!



It does well as a marginal plant with its roots in water but none over the crown. I have several varieties of it in my pond and have done for many years.


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## mort (20 Sep 2017)

You also have to be what looks like a geum in the right corner. This is a plant that again does well in the margins but not over the crown. Both species are really moist soil lovers but can adapt.


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## chinwag (20 Sep 2017)

That makes sense, I was a bit baffled because they were adamant it wasn't a pond plant, and I knew it was in our pond! lol.

You're right though, it's been growing on the edge, mostly out of water bar the roots.

I'm debating moving a clump of each to the bog garden once it's setup, good spot with the geum @mort - we picked it up a few months back in the pond plants section but I'm wondering if it'd prefer bog to water now.

Thanks.


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## mort (20 Sep 2017)

Geum rivale can get to about 50x50cm in a couple of years. It provides thick cover and can be easily divided, so I tend to plant it around the edge of the pond but not in the water so it doesn't take over. Drumstick primulas do a similar job and give a great display.


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## chinwag (21 Sep 2017)

Cool, thanks @mort we'll definitely shift both of those in that case. 

We needed plants for the bogs so that works out pretty well!


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## AndyOx (7 Oct 2017)

I would treat the plant like you would mint! It is quite invasive and difficult to clear once its "escaped" 

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## chinwag (8 Oct 2017)

Cool, thanks @AndyOx - we're going to keep it out of the water and in a contained bog garden - we've made several out of big pots that we've sunk into the ground.

Let hope it stays contained!

Although I never seem to have much luck with the more invasive plants - I've been trying to nurture helixine for years and it's only just started to cover recently, same with creeping jenny, I just can't get it to take off.


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## AndyOx (8 Oct 2017)

It spread all around the rockery, under the water fall and dipped into the pond, very colourful foliage and nice orange smell to them too.

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## mort (20 May 2018)

Just saw this thread listed at the bottom of another so thought I'd add that even with the severe winter we had my sink and those of my neighbour survived unscathed even though they were full to the brim.


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