# Algae IS taking over and I'm at the end of my knowledge



## Angel (12 Dec 2009)

My "beloved" 55g started out with a FEW hair algae and cloudiness. I was bothered but not concerned at first since the milky/ cloudiness is very common due to bacteria bloom in new tanks, same as the hair algae, very common.
So apart from the large w/c after the ick attach and Cardinals death, I kept up my regular w/c and left the algae matter alone. And the hair algae actually did subside some....
However what first was hair algae is now turning into 2-3 other types of algae (IMO would like to share pictures, but can attache any!?):
For one I think I'm dealing with blue-green smear algae around gravel areas. To me this type is really only kown to rep poor water quality but all my reading are great - So what's going wrong where?
I have spot algae all over the glass, however i *think* these are fairly common in planted tanks even if I never had this issue before (and don't now in the other planted tanks).
Now algae no3 which I can only call brush algae (dark green-black looking fuzz) is litterly taking OVER and coating ALL my plants (fast & slow growing, ALL) and it appears to rapidly increase within 24 hrs. 

Now at first I started dialing the lights down some, which IMO only INCREASED the algae growth. When I first set up the tank, my plants were doing GREAT, growing real nice, no signs of nutrients deficit, nothing. After the ick attch, maybe few days later it appeared as if they slowed down, which I blamed on the ick meds. After the large w/c and adding the carbon to the filter when everybody died it looks as if the plants just came to a complete STOP (all plants) and that's when the hair algae subsided and these others took over in like 2 days now.
At any stage there was no significant Ammonia, NO2 or 3 spike (NO2 was 0.05 now 0.025, KH4 pH7.2) and like I said I dialed the lights down to be on 10hrs/day.

This is really killing my plants and I do NOT know what to do any more, I never had such a algae attach and all them being different types - What do they all have in common that apparently goes WRONG in this tank???
I am no fan of any chem's  - But some places suggest use of copper to eliminate the matter??? I also found suggesting to give the plants a bleach-solution bath or use Hydrogen Peroxide in the tank???

This is really turning into my nightmare tank here and I am clueless by now what to do since the w/c and light obviously do not help...And honestly in all my yrs with planted tank I never ever had a tank this stubborn, so a dear friend suggested to come here for ideas/ help


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## amy4342 (12 Dec 2009)

Awww, shame! Algae is always such a pain.

Can you provide more details please, including tank size, lighting (duration and wattage), fertilisation routine, do you inject co2 and how, water change routine etc.

If you could use this webpage http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm (James' webpage - a wealth of information) to identify the algae, that might help.


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## Superman (12 Dec 2009)

I would suggest that you concentrate on fertilisers and co2 within your tank.

Algae is there because you're not providing sufficient co2 and/or ferts in certain areas of your tank.

As in your OP you didn't mention any co2 or fertilisers, then I would assume that it's not on your top priority list, it needs to be.

Check the algae guide which is linked to in my signature and each algae has a particular trigger, solve the trigger and kill the algae and you're onto a winner.


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## Angel (12 Dec 2009)

I understand that since the KH dropped slightly, the CO2 availability being 10 mg/l is SLIGHTLY too low - But I have tanks with even lower CO2 then that and they have no algae, much less such a hardcore outbreak.

Will read over the link now thanks.


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## Hokum (12 Dec 2009)

Improve flow and and use some excel or easy carbo. Would be my first thoughts. Then nitrates.


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## Angel (12 Dec 2009)

@amy4342
Sorry I must have overlooked your post earlier somehow...
Like I said its a mix of more then one type by now. Its blue-green smear algae as well as brush algae and some green spot algae.

Here's tank details: 55g, started Nov 12th
Ick outbreak & treatment week of thanksgiving, thereafter 2 large w/c (one ~80% next about 50%)
2x 4ft florescent one is 32W @ 5000k and one is 40W @6500K. Lights are on (now) 10hrs/ day used to be 12hrs/day before outbreak.
Otherwise w/c weekly about uhm ~25-30%
Like I said in the post the problem started AFTER the ick treatment (large w/c and adding carbon to filter) that's when the hair algae subside and the other stuff started and it SERIOUSLY took over in the past 2.5 days like hardcore.

Here's what I done now: I got Algae Fix from API to kill the stuff (hopefully) and vacuum it out. Tank just NOW got its first fix of the stuff, so let's see...just between my msg this AM and now before I added the API - This tank looks like someone dumped 1g Milk in there mixes with green "fluff" floating in the water - I've NEVER seen a maintained tank THIS nasty ever, much less in MY house. And the only reason really I am going for the API stuff (cause I do not admire using chem's in my tanks AT ALL) is simply in the effort to safe the plants and the fact that there's no fish in atm.
Simultaneously for the plants I got liquid ferts & root tabs to boost their growth (yet again, they were doing totally fine before the ick treatment)
Oh and NO2 is @ 0.025 NO3-0 pH 7.1 and KH 4
What other info could I send ya??

@Hokum: Flourish Excel is ordered (stores around me don't have nothing that "fancy"  )


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## Superman (12 Dec 2009)

How are you measuring the co2?

Brush algae shows that there's something wrong with your co2. You need to make sure it's 30ppm and flow us good.

The blue-green algae is the worst to get rid of, I had it once after not maintaining the tank sufficiently enough. I had to do a 3 day black out as it just returned once removed. I would of thought that you're filter is clogged up or not cycled properly?

Note that the Algae Fix would only kill the current algae but would not solve the problem.

From what you've said, it sounds like the meds could be the cause of the problem. I'm not sure if it's plant-safe as never used it myself, maybe it wasn't?

Having NO2 in the tank, shows that something's gone on to upset the bacteria in your filter, did you cycle it properly? I would of thought that if there's NO2, how about Ammonia (NH3). Algae is only kick started when there's ammonia about, so this needs attention.


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## Angel (13 Dec 2009)

Via Table only (can't find no kit here)

I'm actually really no longer (after more research) sure if that's brush, cause at this link http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm what looks like mine is called "Staghorn" which is covering the upper parts of several plants, but the worst and most covering is really the blue-green slime algae

Filter is a Eheim 2213 and its running just fine, tank had been cycled properly (regular measurable N-Peak, rise & fall, dropped to 0 all fine) before I added the Cardinals (who then died of ick) something was SERIOUSLY thrown outta wack with this ick medications, regardless of the large water changes and adding carbon to remove it - That's the ONLY thing that I seen went wrong in this tank vs the last 10 tank set up's (that didn't have such problem).
The stuff is acc to label & research plant safe, however the initial hair-thread algae I had when i FIRST set up the tank (which didn't bother me and I had found it normal for a newly tank system) those were killed off almost immediately when I used the ick med's. The plants really up until today hadn't shown an signs of deficit anywhere, but over night now the algae grew so much that some leaf start turning a lil yellow since I look at the tank this AM. That's why I'd also like to move kinda fast on this issue cause that stuff is real QUICK and its gonna kill all the plants.

I just figured the following (and this may not work since I really never had this issue before):
1) Get rid or limit the algae growth
2) Prompt plant stability & health & growth (liquid & tab ferts)
3) Keep up regular normal w/c
4) Restock tank

No Ammonia nor NO3 present. I can test NO2 again now and come back to you in a min...


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## Angel (13 Dec 2009)

Nop, NO2 is 0.025... there had been no fish in there since Thanksgiving and its had 2 large w/c since then with some serious gravel vac....soooo where's it coming from???

I'm telling you guys, this tank is giving me so much grief I just wanna tear it down right now....its been doomed from the get go almost and I really can't see WHY....I mean you'd really figure after 10 successful tank set ups in all sizes stuff like this wouldn't happen to me NOW but rather to someone new who's doing all sorts things wrong ... I just wanna bang my head against the wall


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## paul.in.kendal (13 Dec 2009)

Hi Angel

I'm NOT the person to be taking any advice from, as I'm only three weeks into my first-ever aquarium, and struggling with it.  But FWIW, when I read this thread, two things surprised me.

One, you're only doing 20-30% water changes once-weekly.  I'd have expected to see more like 50% daily.

And two, you've still got your lights on for 10 hours - I was expecting to see them having come down from that sort of number to maybe six hours.  At least that way you're reducing the growth input and giving yourself a bit more time to find the cause of the algae.

But I'd follow Superman's advice if I were you - look to your Co2. Get a dropchecker and 4dkh water via mail order if needs be. And whack the Co2 up way high if there's no fish in there - you may have been successful with marginal Co2 levels in previous tanks, but you're obviously not getting away with it this time. 

Don't know if this just confuses the issue further - sorry if it does.


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## jolt100 (13 Dec 2009)

Hi Angel, if you want to get rid of the BGA do the 3 day blackout, it kills it off so you have a clean start but if you dont alter your conditions it will reappear within a few days. Do 50% waterchanges for 3 days cleaning as much BBA from th leaves/substrate by hand beforehand and increase your CO2 and water circulation rate, add another circulation pump or powerhead if necessary.

There some other threads on BGA and BBA,have a read, the concensus seems to be to get that 10X water circulation and dose more CO2 (or liquid carbon).

Dont despair, the answer is out there,  

John


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## Angel (13 Dec 2009)

*@jolt100* If I was in your shoes I'd say the same, however I already tried everything I can imagine and apart from the med's that been used I DO NOT know what on earth could make my water so bad, or add something in there that changes the water in a way shape/ form that obviously I can not measure.
There's no fish nor food waste in there and it had undergone a regular cycling with nice peaks & down to 0. All was just like my other tanks and out of the book UNTIL the meds.
Apart from the Algaefix and Liquid & Root fert's I bought yesterday, I also ordered Flourisch Excel last night, so that'll be here sometime next week. Then I can OD the plants 

*@paul.in.kendal *
Why should I be doing 50% w/c on a fully cycled tank - just because...Makes no sense to me sorry. And the tank, as you read here had 2 large w/c based of the meds as well.
As you'll find here, I have more then just 1 algae going here, to battle them 6 or 10 hrs in lights really don't make a difference - A blackout would if anything.
The other 2 tanks, identical set up, same source water - There's no issue there as I explained, so its not the magic lack of CO2 - if that was the case and CO2 is the cure for anything in a tank - Then I ask you why my others (that didn't have no ick treatment) don't have the same issue, when one has even lower CO2 then the "problem 55g"?

*Update this AM *One thing after using the Algaefix by API last night: The Staghorn algae started bubbling all night - So I'm hoping this is a good sign. This AM not much has changed - But considering the growth this stuff had over night - to not have grown MORE over the past night is a good start to me. Let that stuff work today and tomorrow, then some scraping and a large w/c and another dose....


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## Superman (13 Dec 2009)

Angel said:
			
		

> NO2 is 0.025





			
				Angel said:
			
		

> Why should I be doing 50% w/c on a fully cycled tank



Both of the above are opposite, if you have NO2 in your tank then it's shows that it doesn't have sufficient bacteria to complete the nitrogen cycle. Just because it was cycled before, doesn't mean the bacteria colony can be killed/upset and you'd have to cycle again. NO2 will be produced from the dying plant matter in your tank.

Now you have algae spores in your tank, doing 50% WCs will remove as many spores as possible, hence why it's suggested to do daily water changes until the algae has gone.

You didn't reply on how you measure the co2 in the tank.

You're plants aren't happy in this setup, there's no point trying to compare them with other ones you've had in the past or currently have. Each tank has a unique setup and you need to attain a balance.

When there's algae in a tank it's either due to the flow, co2, ferts, light being at an imbalance. You're not mentioning what you're dosing or how you're dosing co2.



			
				paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> you've still got your lights on for 10 hours - I was expecting to see them having come down from that sort of number to maybe six hours.  At least that way you're reducing the growth input and giving yourself a bit more time to find the cause of the algae.


Algae spores break into algae when there's ammonia + light. The ammonia might of been there when you're fish were ill/dead, however now the algae has 'hatched' then feeding them with light isn't the way to go. I'd suggest dropping the light to 6 hours at most until the algae is sorted. Plants can adapt, algae will suffer.


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## Angel (13 Dec 2009)

Angel said:
			
		

> Via Table only (can't find no kit here)


Yes Sir, I made sure I answered you yesterday, see above.

And no I hadn't used CO2 in any of the tank, as I tried to explain, it was no issue in the other set up's and also wasn't and issue in this one till after the med's threw just about anything outta wack in this tank nothing is normal any more what so ever.

I understand the light mater which is why I addressed doing a black out rather then having lights on for 6hrs as i'd find that more sufficient with the type of alage's I'm dealing with here - yay? nay?

The reason I explained any of the other set up's is simply because I feel like THE SOUL option that y'all are beating me up over is CO2 - Well sorry I do not have a CO2 system and I ain't finding one here in the stix neither. As anything else in the tank world, I am strongly believing there more then 1 way to handle and solve situations and right now I really feel with some these answers here like being shuffed off "buy a CO2 and all will be good" when I'd think there's more then only one solution to this, when clearly there's more then 1 issue causing this tank to fall THIS MUCH outta wack

Its just REALLY REALLY frustrating here right now


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## Fred Dulley (16 Dec 2009)

You've asked for advice and it's been given. But you choose not to take it.
The hair algae you are experiencing is because of low CO2/your lighting it too high(intense). We can easily test for this in tanks with medium-high light. Turn off the CO2, neglect tank and see what pops up. Many kinds of hair algae even GSA.
Don't want a CO2 kit? Decrease the lighting wattage.
As Superman has said, you have a NO2 reading because there are insufficient amounts of bacteria covnerting the NO2 to NO3. This certainly is not helping with your algae problem.

Edit. Also, you cannot compare tanks in the past. There are soooooooo many different factors that each tank is different in it's own right.


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## Angel (16 Dec 2009)

Hi Fred,
I do appreciate and take the advise and already made changes just like I said with 4-5 diff types of algae that was going on, there's more then just ONE thing that needs to change went wrong   
And I wasn't actually comparing it to the other 6 tanks I gave but, but to the 2 other current 1's set up under exact same circumstances.

Anyway to update: NO2 is 0. Blue-Green smear algae totally gone, no signs of hair algae (not that I could find any anywhere last night anyway). Staghorn is truing into "gray dust" is really best way to describe it and got vacuumed out last night and like 4-5 heavy infested leaf's got clipped. 
Root & Liquid fert's were added last night per directions.
Its not a 100% gone and that would also be unrealistic to expect in this short time frame, but all actions taken sure show a GOOD effect so far and I'm happy about that  
Likes are no changed to 4on 4 off and 5on, not sure if this set up will stay that way long term or not, not sure about this yet.


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## plantbrain (16 Dec 2009)

So let's get the goal straight here:

No CO2

So this means you need to allow the plants to adapt to low stable CO2 levels and pack the tank full of plants.
So no large water changes at all, if any.

The most successful non CO2 planted tanks do best without any water changes, they just add water for evaporation only.
Adding lots of water during the changes adds lots of CO2 suddenly. Causes plants to grow well for a day or so, then stunt, then algae comes.

Plants will do better if they are in a more stable Carbon/CO2 environment.
Growth will be slow, but you should not have many algae issues with a correctly set up non CO2 planted tank(higher success rate than most folks have w CO2).

Too much light will also drive things too fast in non CO2 tanks and cause the CO2 to move around too much when the lights are turned on. Algae are not CO2 or nutrient limited, plants are.

Less light = less CO2 demand.

The algae you have is more a low NO3 and organic muck issue. 
Cleaning the filter good, perhaps adding fish, KNO3 etc can resolve some of this.

EM or a blackout can kill the BGA, but will not stop it's return, Algae killers should always be avoided at all cost, they have never helped anyone with plants and no one worth their salt would ever suggest them for a planted aquarium.

Floating plants are also a good idea to have with a non CO2 planted tank, say 10% coverage area.
Soil based sediments work well, but you may also dose the water column 2-4x a month and get similar results to that of soil. Fish waste also plays a much larger role in non CO2 planted tanks for the nutrient supply % for plants.

So clean, stop doing water changes, add some fish, BO or EM to kill the BGA, add some KNO3 once twice a month at least to about 5-10ppm per dose. Soils will also denitrify the NO3 in water causing a low/bottoming out of NO3 as it's transformed to N2 gas. So even if the plants do not get the NO3, the bacteria can and will.

Then BGA appears. Clogged dirty filters also are good correlations for BGA blooms.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Angel (19 Dec 2009)

Hi Tom,
sorry for the delay here & thanks for the help!

No, no CO2 Injection at this time and point. The only steady Carbon supply is Excel daily.

Not sure I understand you right....are you saying I should NOT have done the large w/c after the medications few weeks ago?   

What's your suggestion on the 55g? Continue the siesta or take one of two 40w's out?

I "cleaned" the filter after the medications, took the carbon back out, cleaned the hoses and actual canister but not the whole media, if that's what you're referring to, to be cleaned out?

Fish will be slowly stocked now, again reason I couldn't before was the death and med's removal and I wanted to give it few weeks before attempting to stock this tank again. Once stocked & done, that should also support the CO2 IMO wouldn't it!?

With some of the algae types gone after black out and using ferts & excel...what does remain unchanged is the tanks cloudiness. Which I seen with normal bacteria bloom in new tanks, but I simply never seen it last over 2 weeks - Anyone any input for me there.  

How can so many planted tanks run so wonderfully and grow picture perfect and then ONE that makes you simply wanna rip your hair out - arg-


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## OllieNZ (19 Dec 2009)

> With some of the algae types gone after black out and using ferts & excel...what does remain unchanged is the tanks cloudiness. Which I seen with normal bacteria bloom in new tanks, but I simply never seen it last over 2 weeks


Had what sounds like a similar problem in my tank it looked really bad only way I could get rid of it in the end was a 50%WC and used Nutrafin Bio-Clear  

Regards

Ollie


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## Angel (5 Feb 2010)

After some absence from my own thread here, a few headaches later and a *near giving up* experience on this very 55g tank, I wanted to update & thank you guys. 

A mixture of (what felt like) thousand little approaches mixed into one eliminated each algae type bit by bit, I then had a fairly long lasting bacteria bloom and now for several weeks *knock on wood* this tank is FINALLY as pretty, neatly planted and thriving as any of my other tanks.

The approach was a mixture of black outs; several large water exchanges, dialing down lights while upping ferts, slowly upgrading my stock (which lack of stock in the first place/ lack CO2 played a vivid role there); minimal food schedule....Pretty much any & all factors that will bring a wacko tank back into a proper balances that is needed.

One thing I learned through the course of this when I asked for advise; and this honestly upset me; some people have a VERY narrow way of looking at their planted tanks when attempting to provide you with ideas that are as good as non (in some forums/ users; not anyone here in particular) and that can be very aggravating to say the least (eg. I was told over & over ALL my algae types would souley be due to NO's and too much fish waste/ wrong stock; when my tank wasn't even stocked that that point).
While I have developed a pretty 'set' way in dealing with my tanks over the years; I appreciate new ideas; these "stuck" views I was confronted with while leaning to battle my new algae there was pretty frustrating.

So really thanks to all that helped and have a open mind about this matter and any other!!!!


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## paul.in.kendal (6 Feb 2010)

Hi Angel

Great to hear your tank is sorted out - well done!

I'm sorry to hear you've had so much conflicting advice, but ultimately you've sifted the wheat from the chaff (mine was probably chaff!) and got on top of things.

If UKAPS has been extra helpful to you, how about rewarding us with a picture?  That'd be great!


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## Angel (7 Feb 2010)

I would but I can't see any bottom or add options that'll allow me to upload one to my reply???  
And don't have any expectations on these tanks; just some crappy used tanks with a few plants int hem really and they all been set up between Nov-Dec last year so nothing has filled in - groin in all the way yet (not like my old jungles anyway)


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## CeeJay (7 Feb 2010)

Hi Angel
Unfortunately we can't just 'add' a photo to this site. We have to use an external host like photobucket or imageshack.
Here's how to do it   
How to post a picture on UKAPS


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