# Personable (possibly group/harem) centrepieces for 240l community?



## noobscaper (24 Oct 2021)

Do you guys have any ideas for colourful centrepiece fish with personality? They'd go in a 240l heavily-planted community aquarium with:
6x SAE
7x bronze cory
1x BN pleco
Temperature 24C
I think that eliminates pairs/harems of the more aggressive cichlids (kribs and apistos) unfortunately. Also not a big fan of gouramis in general - I like thick, stocky fish more.


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## Wolf6 (25 Oct 2021)

Badis badis? I've kept many apistos in community tanks in the past with no issues though.


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

Wolf6 said:


> Badis badis? I've kept many apistos in community tanks in the past with no issues though.


Hmmmm... Badis are a bit too small for my liking. I'd ideally like something about as big as an angelfish, but apistogramma size and upwards would be fine.
Did you keep the apistos in breeding groups though? Honestly I really don't want them to breed, but I'd love to have a few. Also did you have any bottom feeders with them?


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## Wolf6 (25 Oct 2021)

I kept them as one male with 3 females, had eggs a few times but it always got eaten before they were big enough. I had agassizi's and borellis. I kept them with kuhli's and black neons mostly, never noticed much aggression aside from their territory while breeding of course, but never enough to damage fish. 
Alternative eyecatcher could be sailfin molly, those get a bit larger but some varieties have amazing colors.


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## shangman (25 Oct 2021)

In a tank with SAE and cories apistos will breed, but I don't think any fry will survive. I think you could keep apistos with these fish, but you'd want a less aggressive type like a Macmasteri or Borellii that won't try to murder any fish that goes near their young. Macmasteri and borelli will breed in a harem (though macs are "casually polygamous") so you could keep a single male with several females - you have to put them all in together and make sure you have defined territories for the females first. 

Other cichlid options are german or bolivian rams, bolivian rams apparently do better in groups (I haven't ket them, but I've read it before). Or maybe for something bigger an electric blue acara? @Courtneybst has kept them before.


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## Fiske (25 Oct 2021)

Aside from rams and apistos, you could look into Anomalochromis thomasi or Laetacara (eg. curviceps). Should be fairly peaceful too. Got very close to getting either, but felt they didn't scale well with my then scape in an EA600. A. thomasi is african though, but since you already have kuhliis... Both species are somewhere on my bucketlist.
An outsider could be some sort of sleeper goby, peacocks for instance. Absolutely as personable as cichlids. If you have a lid 😭


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## castle (25 Oct 2021)

From my experience with B.Badis and B.Ruber do best on their own, very low keeping fish. Somewhat brutal if there aren't enough hiding spaces, far more so when they're in condition. 

Your fish are all quite varied, and from different regions and requirements. Maybe a few gouramis could temp?


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## tam (25 Oct 2021)

Black window tetra? Come in albino version too. My parents had some long fin albino ones but I've not seen them available since.


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## Wookii (25 Oct 2021)

Are you looking for a pair of larger individuals @noobscaper, or considering a shoal also? If the latter, you have lots of options, including some smaller species of Rainbow fish, or some slightly larger tetra like Congo tetra? Some Barbs such as Rosy barbs might be an option if you like thicker set fish.


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

Wolf6 said:


> I kept them as one male with 3 females, had eggs a few times but it always got eaten before they were big enough. I had agassizi's and borellis. I kept them with kuhli's and black neons mostly, never noticed much aggression aside from their territory while breeding of course, but never enough to damage fish.
> Alternative eyecatcher could be sailfin molly, those get a bit larger but some varieties have amazing colors.


Apistos sound quite promising then, I'm just not too convinced about the size. Do they swim anywhere near the middle? I'd hate for the top half of the swimming space to be completely empty. What's funny is I just got rid of my mollies for being annoying little bastards and stealing the corydoras' food.




shangman said:


> In a tank with SAE and cories apistos will breed, but I don't think any fry will survive. I think you could keep apistos with these fish, but you'd want a less aggressive type like a Macmasteri or Borellii that won't try to murder any fish that goes near their young. Macmasteri and borelli will breed in a harem (though macs are "casually polygamous") so you could keep a single male with several females - you have to put them all in together and make sure you have defined territories for the females first.
> 
> Other cichlid options are german or bolivian rams, bolivian rams apparently do better in groups (I haven't ket them, but I've read it before). Or maybe for something bigger an electric blue acara? @Courtneybst has kept them before.


Macs look (and sound) amazing! They're on the shortlist for sure, alongside keyholes. Would love more options though. I don't know about the bolivians, don't they keep to the bottom? Also I've heard of acaras destroying plants.




Fiske said:


> Aside from rams and apistos, you could look into Anomalochromis thomasi or Laetacara (eg. curviceps). Should be fairly peaceful too. Got very close to getting either, but felt they didn't scale well with my then scape in an EA600. A. thomasi is african though, but since you already have kuhliis... Both species are somewhere on my bucketlist.
> An outsider could be some sort of sleeper goby, peacocks for instance. Absolutely as personable as cichlids. If you have a lid 😭


Non-classic cichlids (not apistos, angels, discus, rams etc.) are completely unavailable here. Bummer : (





tam said:


> Black window tetra? Come in albino version too. My parents had some long fin albino ones but I've not seen them available since.





Wookii said:


> Are you looking for a pair of larger individuals @noobscaper, or considering a shoal also? If the latter, you have lots of options, including some smaller species of Rainbow fish, or some slightly larger tetra like Congo tetra? Some Barbs such as Rosy barbs might be an option if you like thicker set fish.


I'd prefer some larger individuals (perhaps with a few small schoolers). (Non-neon dwarf) Rainbows aren't very available around here sadly : (
Does anyone know any peaceful, non-plant-destroying cichlids around the 15cm/6" mark?

Whew. Sorry for the long post, the replies didn't show up on my homepage for some reason.


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## mort (25 Oct 2021)

Festivums are nice and get to about 6 inches. I'm not sure how personable they are because I've never kept them but they can be a little shy to begin with.


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## dw1305 (25 Oct 2021)

Hi all,


shangman said:


> though macs are "casually polygamous"


You've been listening to <"Mike Wise">, I wish everybody would, he really is "_Wise by name and wise by nature_".

cheers Darrel


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

mort said:


> Festivums are nice and get to about 6 inches. I'm not sure how personable they are because I've never kept them but they can be a little shy to begin with.


They look awesome and I was considering them, but then heard somewhere they like to munch on plants.


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## Conort2 (25 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> They look awesome and I was considering them, but then heard somewhere they like to munch on plants.


I think it all depends on the individual fish, some seem to be ok and others definitely. Saying that I’ve had the same thing with angelfish which are not supposed to touch plants.

Cheers


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## John q (25 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> I don't know about the bolivians, don't they keep to the bottom?


They tend to stay in the bottom half of the tank.


Fiske said:


> you could look into Anomalochromis thomasi


Shame you're unable to source these, they are really peaceful cichlids and look fantastic, the males grow to about 90mm and are extremely stocky.


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## shangman (25 Oct 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> You've been listening to <"Mike Wise">, I wish everybody would, he really is "_Wise by name and by nature_".
> 
> cheers Darrel


I have!  I like to go on the apistogramma forum, keeps me on the straight and narrow when it comes to looking after the apistos. I had recently been considering adding another female or two to my tank as I had heard Macmasteris were harem breeders, but they let me know that adding any new females now my pair have lived in the tank alone for a while was a bad idea and that my tank would need even more structure for it to work. The male would be fine (being casually polygamous), but the females... not so happy. And I do like the peacefulness of the tank right now!



noobscaper said:


> Macs look (and sound) amazing! They're on the shortlist for sure, alongside keyholes. Would love more options though. I don't know about the bolivians, don't they keep to the bottom? Also I've heard of acaras destroying plants.


Macmasteri are beautiful, intelligent brilliant fish, they are the crown jewels of my big tank. My apistos do travel all over the tank, but mostly just along the hardscape (I have wood covered in moss, they hunt the shrimps who live in the moss all the way to the top) so if you want them to come up from the bottom you'd need some strong hardscape. The apistos are sand-sifters like the bolivians, and they do spend a lot of their time on the bottom.


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

John q said:


> View attachment 175986View attachment 175987


They're lovely! Shame the only ones available are >100km away from me.
I'm also looking into keyholes. Anyone have any experience with them? I'm scared they'd be too shy and get bullied by the SAE (who faced even my terror mollies).


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## John q (25 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> Shame the only ones available are >100km away from me


Lol I did a 190 km round trip on Sunday to get some German rams 😄


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

John q said:


> Lol I did a 190 km round trip on Sunday to get some German rams 😄


I'd drive that far if it were me who owned the car ; )


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## mort (25 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> I'm also looking into keyholes. Anyone have any experience with them? I'm scared they'd be too shy and get bullied by the SAE



The few I've looked after didn't seem to be bullied (but I knew they were peaceful so didn't put them with anything nasty) but they were shy, which seems to be   common trait from what I've read.

Cupids cichlids, Bitodoma cupido, are very nice peaceful cichlids as well.


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## Courtneybst (25 Oct 2021)

shangman said:


> In a tank with SAE and cories apistos will breed, but I don't think any fry will survive. I think you could keep apistos with these fish, but you'd want a less aggressive type like a Macmasteri or Borellii that won't try to murder any fish that goes near their young. Macmasteri and borelli will breed in a harem (though macs are "casually polygamous") so you could keep a single male with several females - you have to put them all in together and make sure you have defined territories for the females first.
> 
> Other cichlid options are german or bolivian rams, bolivian rams apparently do better in groups (I haven't ket them, but I've read it before). Or maybe for something bigger an electric blue acara? @Courtneybst has kept them before.


Indeed! I kept Bolivian rams in a community tank and they never bothered the other fish, only themselves. Just casual bickering, nothing serious. Very pretty and massively underrated.

The electric blue acara may struggle to eat well with fast fish like SAE. They are not overly quick swimmers. I also only kept a single one, not sure how they do in groups. Fully grown they are stunning though!


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## Mr.Shenanagins (25 Oct 2021)

I’d also consider the peacock gudgeon, uncommon but beautiful and you can keep multiple.


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## Conort2 (25 Oct 2021)

mort said:


> Cupids cichlids, Bitodoma cupido, are very nice peaceful cichlids as well.


Very nice fish but I’d put them on the same shyness level as keyholes. I’d say both species prefer to be the largest in the tank. Full grown sae are quite a big fish and can be a bit boisterous. 

Would you consider one of the medium sized loach species like histronica, kubotai etc? They can be pretty outgoing once settled in and kept in a decent sized group.

Krobia would fit the bill as a medium sized cichlid that could hold its own, however you’ll struggle to find them by the sounds of it.

Cheers


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Very nice fish but I’d put them on the same shyness level as keyholes. I’d say both species prefer to be the largest in the tank. Full grown sae are quite a big fish and can be a bit boisterous.
> 
> Would you consider one of the medium sized loach species like histronica, kubotai etc? They can be pretty outgoing once settled in and kept in a decent sized group.
> 
> ...


Aren't loaches strict bottom dwellers? I think I might have enough of those already and I've heard loaches would outcompete corys.
Also a big fan of snails - that eliminates loaches (and keyholes iirc).


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## Conort2 (25 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> Aren't loaches strict bottom dwellers? I think I might have enough of those already and I've heard loaches would outcompete corys.
> Also a big fan of snails - that eliminates loaches (and keyholes iirc).


Forgot about the corydoras, scrap that idea!


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## noobscaper (25 Oct 2021)

Are there any not-too-small, plant-safe, not-shy but still peaceful cichlids apart from apistos and bolivians (and angels, which I don't want to have again)?

Would this be a nice balance, or overstocked for a 120x40x50 heavily-planted aquarium??
6x bolivian ram OR 4x Apistogramma macmasteri
1x SAE (might get rid of it down the line, but let's keep it in)
12x bronze cory
20x black neon OR silvertip OR penguin tetra
1x BN pleco


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## Courtneybst (26 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> Are there any not-too-small, plant-safe, not-shy but still peaceful cichlids apart from apistos and bolivians (and angels, which I don't want to have again)?
> 
> Would this be a nice balance, or overstocked for a 120x40x50 heavily-planted aquarium??
> 6x bolivian ram OR 4x Apistogramma macmasteri
> ...


I would say if you plan to stock that many dwarf cichlids you need to put emphasis on creating territories. Even then, males can relentlessly chase each other and females can be equally territorial. It sounds like it wouldn't be 'enough' but I honestly wouldn't put more than 1 male for the apistos. 2 for the Bolivian rams.

I'm not saying you _can't_ do it. I'm all about pushing boundaries and each fish is individual. I just have experience with both and this is what I observed.

The rest of your stocking sounds good.


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## OllieTY (26 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> Non-classic cichlids (not apistos, angels, discus, rams etc.) are completely unavailable here. Bummer : (


Have you tried talking with your LFS about the fish they can actually get in? Their suppliers will normally have a brilliant selection, but most shops will only get in what they know they can sell. It may be different if you order something particular. Not sure if all shops are like this but the LFS close to me will let me see the lists they pick from. Maybe gather some names from this thread into your own list and take it to them to see what they can find for you!


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## noobscaper (26 Oct 2021)

OllieTY said:


> Have you tried talking with your LFS about the fish they can actually get in? Their suppliers will normally have a brilliant selection, but most shops will only get in what they know they can sell. It may be different if you order something particular. Not sure if all shops are like this but the LFS close to me will let me see the lists they pick from. Maybe gather some names from this thread into your own list and take it to them to see what they can find for you!


Good idea! I actually managed to find quite a large shop too (the largest in my country), and it's only 20km away. Unfortunately the more uncommon fish from this thread seem to be quite shy, so I'm not too sure about them. I'm still a kid, so prices would also be a bit of a problem : (


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## Garuf (26 Oct 2021)

Then don’t take the really spendy or unusual stuff, it’s usually spendy or unusual for a reason. There are plenty of common fish with lower price tags that are going to be enjoyable to keep. Speak with your shop. They’ll help. If they don’t they lost the sale and you can go else where. 
Take lemon tetras. Absolutely stunning fish when mature with character for days, usually around €2-4 euros…


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## noobscaper (26 Oct 2021)

Garuf said:


> Then don’t take the really spendy or unusual stuff, it’s usually spendy or unusual for a reason. There are plenty of common fish with lower price tags that are going to be enjoyable to keep. Speak with your shop. They’ll help. If they don’t they lost the sale and you can go else where.
> Take lemon tetras. Absolutely stunning fish when mature with character for days, usually around €2-4 euros…


Not a fan of the lemons unfortunately. I like penguins more.
Also my budget isn't too restrictive - around €50, so I think I can fit comfortably as long as I don't get anything too rare (which I wasn't planning on anyway).

Any more cichlid ideas, anyone?


noobscaper said:


> Are there any not-too-small, plant-safe, not-shy but still peaceful cichlids apart from apistos and bolivians (and angels, which I don't want to have again)?


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## Wolf6 (26 Oct 2021)

Nannacara anomala, Dicrossus Filamentosus, badis badis, rams, apisto cacatoides/agassizi/borelli, I think most have been mentioned before already though.


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## mort (26 Oct 2021)

I was going to say nannacara anomala as well and I haven't seen kribs mentioned (but could of missed the suggestion). I'm not a fan so much of albino fish but having seen pairs of albino kribs, they often really stand out and others seem to love them.

One species I used to keep that was fun was Egyptian mouth brooders, P. multicolor, they arent as peaceful as the milder apistogramma but they weren't nasty either.

The problem is that keeping cichlids is more fun when you let them breed but this is when they show more aggression. I'm not a great fan of keeping them on their own to stop this as you miss the natural dynamic which makes them so fascinating. They have evolved to be aggressive because they are such great parents, it's also why they are more personable than other species, and if we can't allow this to happen in our tanks then perhaps they aren't the right choice for us.  A midwater swimming tetra might not seem as appealing but they have less constraints on your other fish choice so are worth considering.


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## noobscaper (26 Oct 2021)

Big, big change of plan. It seems the shop I was talking about has a huge variety of rainbows in stock - does this stocking list look ok?

12x banded/turquoise rainbow (uggghhh I can't decide between them)
7x bronze cory (ideally would upgrade to 12, would that be fine too?)
1x BN pleco
1x SAE


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## Hufsa (26 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> 12x banded/turquoise rainbow (uggghhh I can't decide between them)


Ive kept the turquoise rainbows years ago, wonderful fish, they have great color and will flash their forehead bright yellow before your very eyes while trying to impress females. I have not read every post in this thread but this is for a 240 liter tank? 12 of these rainbows sound like a lot, they are big stocky fish when fully grown and good swimmers. I would aim for a smaller total number. You could go 1 male 2 females of both species, totaling 6 fish, or maybe an all male group of both species could also work. They are usually fine being in mixed species groups and from what I understand there isnt a big problem with the males fighting. Although I suspect having either a decent amount of females or no females at all is better than having, say, 5 males and 1 female.


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## noobscaper (27 Oct 2021)

Hufsa said:


> Ive kept the turquoise rainbows years ago, wonderful fish, they have great color and will flash their forehead bright yellow before your very eyes while trying to impress females. I have not read every post in this thread but this is for a 240 liter tank? 12 of these rainbows sound like a lot, they are big stocky fish when fully grown and good swimmers. I would aim for a smaller total number. You could go 1 male 2 females of both species, totaling 6 fish, or maybe an all male group of both species could also work. They are usually fine being in mixed species groups and from what I understand there isnt a big problem with the males fighting. Although I suspect having either a decent amount of females or no females at all is better than having, say, 5 males and 1 female.


Yes, it's for a 240l and I'd rather keep a single species since there won't be too many anyway. How many would you say would be the optimal number? 6? 8?


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## Hufsa (27 Oct 2021)

noobscaper said:


> 6? 8?


I would go for 6, maybe 7.
If I had to pick one species I would definitely go with turquoise, but its a matter of personal taste so go with the one you like the most 
If they are old enough at your LFS to tell the sexes you could do 3 males 3/4 female, I think this will work out fine. Granted its been "a few" years since I kept them so my memory might be a bit foggy.
If they are youngsters you can only buy the group and hope you get an alright ratio 

Looking forward to seeing them in your tank, you will post pictures for us I hope?


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## noobscaper (27 Oct 2021)

Hufsa said:


> If they are youngsters you can only buy the group and hope you get an alright ratio
> 
> Looking forward to seeing them in your tank, you will post pictures for us I hope?


From what I've seen (video tour from 4 years ago, so here's to hoping they actually still have rainbows), they're all drab juvies - hopefully that'll make them a bit cheaper haha.
Of course I'll post the pictures! Been thinking about a larger school of penguin tetras instead of the rainbows though. So many choices!


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## sparkyweasel (27 Oct 2021)

Hufsa said:


> I would go for 6, maybe 7.


I'd go for seven; odd numbers look better.


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