# Sand and Soil



## mikewxyz (9 Sep 2022)

Hi UKAPS: I’m looking for some aquascaping advice. I’m new to the hobby and I’m trying to strike the right balance between a verdant aquascape that requires higher maintenance and only lasting a short while versus a more biotopic setup with lower maintenance that lasts a long time.
I like this African Cichlid set up show here on the Tropica website - Layout 21 - Tropica Aquarium Plants

What I like about this layout:

You can easily see the fish
I like the rocks and sand substrate
I like the two types of plants used
What I don’t like about this layout:

There are too few plants (both amount and type)
The plants don’t look healthy – maybe lack of CO2
*The general recommendation is to use high nutrient soil and plant like crazy so algae doesn’t get the upper hand. I would rather use the proper amount of soil and use the matching amount of plants.  Vallisneria spiralis and Cryptocoryne willisii (plus whatever else I choose) are substrate feeders and need soil (from what I understand). The question is, how do you prevent soil, sand and gravel from mixing?*​*Building the substrate - Aquascaping Wiki*​​Aquasabi recommends mesh fabric and PET foil to keep different substrates separate.​- Has anyone used this isolation scheme in a long term set up and would recommend it or is it just for a short term aquascape?​- If the soil is depleted of nutrients in a year or so and you need to add fertilizer capsules beyond that, should I just start with the gravel and capsule approach in the beginning and skip the soil layer all together?​- I did a search on UKAPS regarding this question of soil and sand. One person reported that Green Aqua said this could be done providing the soil layer was thin and the sand layer was thick. Subsequently, I watched a Green Aqua Q&A and Tommy said don’t use layers of sand and soil because they always intermingle.​​Lost in Oregon,

Mike


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## AlecF (9 Sep 2022)

I used a traditional fluval substrate and it emerged up into the sand because I didn't use a plastic grid to separate. I used a soil mix with sand on top and had very little issues. If anything emerges I add more sand. It's very soft, easy to plant into, and the plants are happier. I mixed John Innes, some powdered clay, a little peat, fluorite – you can make your own recipe using advice from threads here. I wish I had used soil in all my tanks.


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## _Maq_ (9 Sep 2022)

mikewxyz said:


> The plants don’t look healthy – maybe lack of CO2


These species - and many many others - can grow very well without CO2 injection.


mikewxyz said:


> Vallisneria spiralis and Cryptocoryne willisii (plus whatever else I choose) are substrate feeders and need soil (from what I understand).


Generations of hobbyists kept these plants successfully prior to the 'invention' of aquarium soils.


mikewxyz said:


> I like this African Cichlid set up


Does this mean that you're planning to breed East-African cichlids? If yes, then you should consider:
(1) Cichlids - not only East-African - often move the substrate to build their holes, caves, tunnels, etc.
(2) East-African cichlids require strongly alkaline water with some peculiarities (high content of Na, a.o.) and only few plants can grow in such conditions.


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## PARAGUAY (9 Sep 2022)

The reason probably why vallis it's always  grown well in plain inert gravel is how it grows in the wild  the roots anchoring into the sandy nutrient poor sandy margins. Can thrive alkaline rich water


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## Wookii (9 Sep 2022)

mikewxyz said:


> Vallisneria spiralis and Cryptocoryne willisii (plus whatever else I choose) are substrate feeders and need soil (from what I understand).



In my limited experience I have found that crypts in particular - though they will grow adequately in both substrates - seem to grow far better in fine sand than in Aquasoil. You can always add a thin nutrient rich layer (10-20mm) in fine mesh bags on the base of the tank, before covering with 50-60mm of sand, which should prevent most if it rising up through the sand, but I don't know the extent to which it is necessary for the plants you have listed if you adequately fertilizer the water column.


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## _Maq_ (9 Sep 2022)

PARAGUAY said:


> The reason probably why vallis it's always grown well in plain inert gravel


Yes, I've also observed that Vallisnerias often struggle in newly established tanks. I'm not sure this happens due nutrient poor substrate, though. I don't know. In literature, there are mentions that Vallisnerias belong among the group of plants which take up CO2 though their roots. If that is the case, then rich microbial life in the substrate can be beneficial for them, and that requires detritus.


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## John q (9 Sep 2022)

mikewxyz said:


> Vallisneria spiralis and Cryptocoryne willisii (plus whatever else I choose) are substrate feeders and need soil (from what I understand).


This really isn't true. Vallisneria spiralis grows fine in inert substrate. Here you can see the typical propagation technique of valls sending out runners in gravel, all looking healthy.





Occasionally they'll send a runner up it to the water column and produce a plantlet in no man's land, which then produces another runner which then heads off back down to find the lush gravel bed. 




If the conditions are right the plants you mention will grow fine, with or without a rich substrate.


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


mikewxyz said:


> What I like about this layout:
> 
> You can easily see the fish
> I like the rocks and sand substrate
> ...


I'm going to assume that you are going to keep Rift Lake Cichlids? In that case <"this is a species list of plants from Lake Tanganyika"> and I would probably just go with sand and some rounded cobbles to protect the plants from digging.


John q said:


> This really isn't true. Vallisneria spiralis grows fine in inert substrate. Here you can see the typical propagation technique of valls sending out runners in gravel, all looking healthy.


Same for me. 

cheers Darrel


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## mikewxyz (9 Sep 2022)

Thank you for all your replies.  Based on the feedback, I will use soil in the appropriate sections of the tank and have a mesh barrier between soil and sand.

I should have said that I want to keep tetras and apistogrammas.


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2022)

Hi all,


mikewxyz said:


> I should have said that I want to keep tetras and apistogrammas.


That makes things a little different, basically you will need to break up line of sight and have a lot more cover for the _Apistogramma.  _I'll copy in @Conort2 <"South American 400l">

They also require softer, very high quality, water. You might be all right with _Apistogramma borelli or A. cacatuoides, _if your water isn't really hard?

Have a look at <"Seasoned Tank Time">, and also <"Dwarf Cichlid tank">, these give a bit more of an idea about what you need in terms of  tank maturity, structure and blocking line of sight.


mikewxyz said:


> I’m new to the hobby


Personally, I honestly wouldn't start with _Apistogramma, _I'm <"a real fan">, but they aren't the easiest fish to keep long term.

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (9 Sep 2022)

There are some nice dwarf cichlids that are easier to keep than _Apistogramma_.
You could think about:
Flag Acara; _Laetacara curviceps_,
Red-breasted Acara; _L dorsigera_,
Keyhole Cichlid;  _Cleithracara maronii_,
Golden Dwarf Cichlid; _Nannacara anomala_,
Kribensis; _Pelvicachromis pulcher_.
hth


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## PARAGUAY (9 Sep 2022)

_Maq_ said:


> Yes, I've also observed that Vallisnerias often struggle in newly established tanks. I'm not sure this happens due nutrient poor substrate, though. I don't know. In literature, there are mentions that Vallisnerias belong among the group of plants which take up CO2 though their roots. If that is the case, then rich microbial life in the substrate can be beneficial for them, and that requires detritus.


Well vallis species  is found in every continent and can take advantage of nutrient peat substrates but it's observed in very nutrient depleted regions. I remember a lot grown in just gravel as mine did.


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## Conort2 (9 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> They also require softer, very high quality, water. You might be all right with _Apistogramma borelli or A. cacatuoides, _if your water isn't really hard?


I’d go for borelli if you’re new to apistogramma. They’re small, fairly easy going (although females will still be defensive when spawning) and are tolerant of harder water. 

Cheers


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## _Maq_ (10 Sep 2022)

_Pelvicachromis sp._ does not require live food and is more resilient to infections.


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## mikewxyz (12 Sep 2022)

Thanks again everyone for the input/ advice.  I will likely have this tank together in November sometime.  I'll share the finished product well...when it's finished.


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