# Advice needed..over-run with algae and want to rescape



## cathyems (27 Oct 2011)

Hi all, I am new to planted tanks and really really need help. I am over-run with green hair algae!!! Please will someone give me advice??  To give you some background, my current tank setup is a Rio 180l tank with:
5 amazon swords along the back wall
1 wisteria
6 pygmy sword chains 

10 rummy nose
1 pearl gourami
2 bolovian rams 
a baby bristlenose pleco 

2 45w T8 lights
pea gravel substrate
I was dosing flourish excel, but stopped because I couldn't get rid of the algae
Flourish root tabs every 4 - 6 weeks
no co2
2 large pieces of bogwood
30% wc every week

And everything is covered in this algae, even the few snails that hitch hiked in on the plants...I have tried cleaning it off, but it just will not go away.

Now, I do want to strip this tank down anyway, so I have waiting in the wings; 
4 bags of flourite black sand
some java moss
riccia
and I want to get -
crypts
anubias
Pogostemon Helferi
dwarf hairgrass
HC, Hemianthus callitrichoides (if at all possible)

I am happy to dump the current plants, but I want to keep the bogwood. I do not want to strip this tank apart and put my good stuff in until I know how to rid myself of this overwhelming invasion. If I put my flourite and new plants in and this happens again, I cannot start over.
How do I get rid of this algae??? Do I need co2 for my new set up? I am confused about what I need for co2. Is my lighting sufficient? What do you folks think of my general planting list?

I am really wanting to sort my tank ASAP and get my new stuff in there. I cannot bear to look at this algae any longer. All your advice is very much appreciated!


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## Morgan Freeman (27 Oct 2011)

Your current plant stocking seems very low for a 180L, this would go someway in explaining your algae problems IMO.

Lighting is pretty low already, how much excel were you dosing and what is your filtration/flow like? It's no use dosing excel if it's too little or not reaching your plants due to poor distribution.

If it was me I'd practice with what you have (plus more plants) and try and get rid of the algae rather than spending money on new stuff and hoping it doesn't happen again. Learning from mistakes is how we progress, even though it can be stressful at the time.

I'm having diatom issues atm so you're not alone


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## cathyems (27 Oct 2011)

Thank you for replying Morgan   
I had been dosing 20ml per day of excel over the spraybar at the back of the tank to help with distribution.  I have a 1600l/hr external filter running this tank with some sponges in the top basket to reduce flow a bit because I thought it was maybe too strong.  Should I replace these with some other media, ceramic rings or something?
Okay, now just to be clear...
My current plants are covered in hair algae, maybe an inch - inch and a half long, do I replace them or try to remove some of the algae?
Once I learn a bit more about how to keep my tank and get this algae under control, then can I replace the substrate with the flourite I have had for the past month???  Now there's another one....I have read about micro and macro nutrients...should I be dosing with these, whatever they are or would that just be helping the algae along?
I take it I need to be quite heavily planted to out compete the algae then? Ah the joy of it all


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## Morgan Freeman (27 Oct 2011)

Do you not dose nutrients to the water column?


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## cathyems (28 Oct 2011)

No, just flourish root tabs.  I take it from your reaction, I should be.  As I say, I have just recently read about micro and macro nutrients....what should I be getting?


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## spyder (28 Oct 2011)

Besides the algae problem how is your plant health in general? 

Also you mention your lights, but how long are they on each day?

Fighting hair algae involves a lot of manual removal and less light. It certainly wouldn't hurt to reduce the amount of time your lights are on. 

Dosing Easycarbo/Excel can help finish off what you can't remove but would get expensive on a 180l tank.

I think only your gourami would not like the extra flow if you change out media. Your plants would thank you for it. 

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/feat ... r-kit.html Everything you need to start EI dosing.

http://www.ukaps.org/EI.htm Very good read if you have not read it yet.


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## cathyems (28 Oct 2011)

Hi Spyder   , some of the plants seem healthy enough, I have always found the amazon swords would have maybe one outer leaf dying off at any given time, but growth has been good.  Pygmy swords have sent out a few runners, but aren't doing just so well and the wisteria is a cutting from my small tank (which I have never had any problems of any description with and it gets absolutely nothing in terms of ferts, etc), well, it has gone a yellowish green and isn't growing as fast as the mother plant.
Lights were on 12hrs/day, but I reduced that to 8hrs about 3 weeks ago to see if it would help, should I reduce it further?  It has made no difference so far.  I have been concerned about the rate of flow through the tank and possible dead spots, so I will take your advice and change the media over the weekend, I intend to give the whole tank as good a scrub as I can.  I wonder is there some way I could maybe create a relatively calm surface corner for my gourami at night.  He uses every level of the tank, but is mostly around the surface at night.
Thanks for the reading material, that will give me food for thought, I'm sure


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## ghostsword (28 Oct 2011)

I would:
- drop the lighting period to 6 hours
- get pressurized co2
- dose some easy carbo
- get more plants, hygrophilas are very good
- get some ferts, either make your own or get some ready made.




.


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## flygja (29 Oct 2011)

Without CO2, I would recommend to turn off one of the 45W tubes you have. The plants you have don't require lots of light anyway. You can also get 10-15 young SAEs to help with the hair algae.


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## spyder (29 Oct 2011)

flygja said:
			
		

> Without CO2, I would recommend to turn off one of the 45W tubes you have.



I don't think this is possible with the twin T5's that come on Juwel Rio tanks, if it is stock lighting being used. Both on or off.



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> I would:
> - drop the lighting period to 6 hours
> - get pressurized co2
> - dose some easy carbo
> ...



This and manual removal should help you beat it.

If you do switch out filter media do it gradually. The sponges will be holding biological bacteria. If you have 2 sponges to replace do 1 then the other 2-3 weeks later.

Floating plants can also be used to reduce lighting levels. You could use a length of airline and some sucker clips to create a barrier for the floaters to float in, in a back corner perhaps. This would create a nice spot for your gourami. I find frogbit tends to hold up in a corner anyway.


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## cathyems (29 Oct 2011)

This is all great, thank you so much everyone!!   
Can I just go over my lighting...I actually have T8 lights, not T5.  Yep, I am using the original Juwel lighting unit, one tube is 90 Lux, the other 135 Lux and both are 18000K.  My apologies, they are not 45w, they are actually 30w each!    So does this mean my lighting is even lower?  I was going to change to T5 lights, but the lady I spoke to told me I didn't need it, is this correct?   Regarding Co2, from my understanding of things, Co2 means I need to up my lighting..have I got this right and if so, what kind of lighting am I looking for?  

I am more than happy to go Co2, I have been reading about it for a while now, but quite frankly, I am totally confused as to what I need to do/get as a first timer.  Can I go DIY Co2 initially?  Where can I look, or can you advise me, what I need to get and how to set this or a pressurised system up?


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## George Farmer (29 Oct 2011)

Hi there and welcome to UKAPS.

You don't need more light if you use CO2.  More light + CO2 = more demands for nutrients and better circulation.

Stick with your current lighting.

If you want CO2 you'll need a pressurised system. Yeast-based and other forms are not suitable for an aquarium of your size.

A 2Kg pressurised system is relatively easy to set-up using a CO2 fire extinguisher.  I have used 2Kg fire extinguishers for years in all of my systems.

Here is a good article - http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=266 

If you're using the Juwel internal filter then a cheap glass/ceramic diffuser will be ok. Position it so the microbubbles get distributed as effectively throughout the water column as possible.

If you have an external filter then consider an external inline diffuser.  The Up Aqua models are great.

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/up-co2- ... -5432.html

You need to dose your aquarium with more nutrients. An all-on-one product such as Tropica Plant Nutrition+, TMC Nutrafeed, or dry ferts as linked previously by spyders' excellent post.


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## cathyems (29 Oct 2011)

George, thank you  

I have spent today scrubbing down the tank, filter pipes (external filter) and wood.  The plants were impossible!!!  I will get the Co2 sorted and I am going to get some fast growing plants to introduce while I try to get things under control (or maybe a mixture of what I want and fast growing) after which I will slowly replace with what I want.
Thanks again


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## cathyems (9 Nov 2011)

Okay, I am now dosing EI and I am trying to gather together the bits n pieces I need for FE Co2.... despite reading, I am clueless about regulators!  So I have found this one on ebay and I'd really appreciate your advice regarding it:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Gauge-Ca ... 0615995403

..of course, if you can offer a better alternative, I'd love to hear about that too.

Many thanks


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## hinch (9 Nov 2011)

that reg should be fine


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## roadmaster (9 Nov 2011)

If present light fixture holds two 45 watt T8 bulbs, then I might consider two 32 watt Daylight  bulbs with 6000 k rating. 
These are often found pretty cheap at hardware store.
 Would leave lights on no longer than eight hours or maybe six hours for a few month's and then increase to eight hours if plant's appear to struggle.
Might also consider Flourish comprehensive plant supplement which is light on macronutrient's but should help provide most of the other nutrient's that plant's appreciate.
If CO2 injection is to be used, then more light and more macronutrient's in addition to flourish might be needed in my view.
If light fixture is T5 ,then raising the fixture or placing some window screen bewteen light and glass might be something I would consider along with some macronutrient's plus the flourish comprehensive.


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## matador1982 (9 Nov 2011)

The best advise you have been given is to invest in a pressurised co2 set up. Whilst you're waiting start doing with easy carbo (liquid carbon) a very inexpensive way of raising the carbon level in your tank.

A major think to always consider is you need to create an equilibrium between light, co2, water conditions and nutrients excess in one of these (poor water quality for that aspect) will cause negative side affects.

What water are you currently using for water changes? If you're not already get yourself onto RO add a water conditions or PH + to stabilise it (I use sera' ph kh +) then carry out regular water changes twice a week! 

Are you able to post a picture? I suspect also if you were to plant more densely this would help but without see your set up its hard for me to really imagine.

To my mind you've already had some cracking advise from the likes of George farmer take it in and good things are round the corner for your tank


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## matador1982 (9 Nov 2011)

cathyems said:
			
		

> Okay, I am now dosing EI and I am trying to gather together the bits n pieces I need for FE Co2.... despite reading, I am clueless about regulators!  So I have found this one on ebay and I'd really appreciate your advice regarding it:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-Gauge-Ca ... 0615995403
> 
> ...



Worst thing I ever did when buying my first co2 set up was buying a regulator without a needle valve. I can't stress how much easier you'll find dosing your tank with co2 with a needle valve.


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## cathyems (11 Nov 2011)

I have finally have a FE. The guy told me he had some with a few months still on them, but he didn't and this one is actually out of date and FOC!  Am I right in thinking I can use this on a disposable basis and get a new tank next time around?  He did say, he would exchange out of date tanks if I want. What's best? 
I ordered this regulator a couple of days ago - TMC V2 Pressure Regulator Pro with Solenoid Valve (DIN477).  Does this unit have a needle valve built in? I am going to use a ceramic diffuser to begin with and consider an upgrade over the next few months to an inline diffuser.
So, off to order the rest of my bits n pieces and hopefully I'll be set up over the next few days.

Matador, I'll get pics up late today hopefully.  By the way, is this okay all still on this thread or should I move??


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## J Butler (11 Nov 2011)

That regulator will definately fit a fire extinguisher and it does come with a needle valve. I'm not sure if it was mentioned but the solenoid will also be very useful. It's an electronic switch that, when plugged in, will allow the gas to flow. Might be worth buying a timer plug for it so you can automate the process, but manually doing it is fine. You just have to be careful at night as the plants will not be photosynthesising and oxygen will be being consumed by both the fauna and flora. It's easy to gas your fish if you're not careful.

While this regulator doesn't allow you to vary the working pressure (inline diffusers need around 1.5 - 2 bar to function properly), the factory preset is 2 bar or a little over so upgrading to an inline shouldn't be a problem. George Farmer used this exact regulater and the UP inline atomiser and they worked fine if I recall.


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## J Butler (11 Nov 2011)

I avoided the FE suitability question as i'm not sure, personally I would like the piece of mind of checks being fully up to date but initial reaction was it should be fine.

I have heard stories of old FE's going in for pressure testing where they have failed, and for things under large amounts of pressure like this, failure is pretty explosive. They are subjected to more extreme criteria than they normally work at I believe though, Ive never heard of one doing that while being used for an aquarium.

This is just what I have gleaned though, I would certainly wait for someone with more experience to comment.


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## Tim Harrison (11 Nov 2011)

I am glad that you have managed to get your tank sorted, but a word of caution for the future. From what I have read your problem with algae was probably due to way too few plants and way too much fertilisation. Flourish Excel, frees up a lot of iron in the water column. The lack of plants would have left plenty for algal uptake. So initially I doubt it had anything to do with your lighting, filtration, flow, lack of macro-nutrients etc (in this instance, the addition of the latter would undoubtedly have made the situation worse).

Algae are supremely adapted to their environment and have many advantages over higher plants, not least they are more efficient at nutrient uptake from the water. All it takes if for one parameter to be out of kilter and they will thrive often at the expense of higher plants. That is also why even though you stopped dosing with Flourish Excel it didn't make much difference. Even if all other parameters had been unfavourable for algal growth it would probably have taken a couple of months for the algae to die back completely.

Flourite substrate would be a good move since it is clay based and will contain iron that your plants can utilize but algae can not since it is locked up in the substrate (algae can only utilise free iron in the water column). 

So to sum up it is just a question of balance, but the larger your tank and the denser you plant the wider the margin for error, its not rocket science and I am sure your new venture will be a great success.

Good luck.


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## cathyems (11 Nov 2011)

As promised, here are some new photos of my tank - since the major algae scrub down and quite a few new plants added (I do intend to get some more, but need foreground plants and have no idea). I have tried to add a variety of fast growing, but there are some anubias and crypts in there too. 
The algae is on it's way back and I can see some already on some of my new plants - the hygrophilas included.  I think I have circulation issues, there isn't really any movement/swaying of my plants, so would it be an idea to put a small powerhead in there to help?  
OK, lets hope I get this right...here we go..










and finally the full view:




I would like to elevate the bogwood on the right somehow in order to utilise the height of the tank, either with more wood or rock to form a cave underneath for the fish, just haven't figured it out yet!  

All suggestions/criticisms welcome concerning any aspect of this tank!


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## foxfish (11 Nov 2011)

Apologies for not reading through your thread but to me you spray bar looks all wrong - to short & to many holes close together.
The idea is to get a circular flow but you would need a full length spray bar for that to happen.


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## cathyems (12 Nov 2011)

I understand what you're saying. I have removed a couple of sections on different occasions because the output was a glorified trickle, even with this being the case, you think I am better with it on?


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## foxfish (12 Nov 2011)

What you need is a full length spray bar that have the right spacings & number of holes.
I dont know if there is a formula but I would get yourself a length of PVC pipe & have a go at making your own custom one.
Start with 3mm holes every 50mm & see what happens, it might pay you to get two lengths & experiment with one by drill extra holes or tapeing over extra holes until you are happy.


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## cathyems (12 Nov 2011)

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll give it a go.


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## greenink (12 Nov 2011)

Plus get in 20 amano shrimp and 10 ottos - they will chomp through the algae like nobody's business.


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## matador1982 (12 Nov 2011)

mikeappleby said:
			
		

> Plus get in 20 amano shrimp and 10 ottos - they will chomp through the algae like nobody's business.



I second this   

Just make sure with the Ottos that when you buy them that you have absolutely no traces of ammonia or they will snuff it. They're an easy fish to keep once you've had them a month if they're not going to be successful in your tank you'll know within the first week. 

I supplement my ottos diet with Spirulina they love it.


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## cathyems (12 Nov 2011)

I had 4 ottos and 3 died within the first month, the last one is doing well. Also, I have a baby bristlenose pleco in there. I love shrimp! I have several in my small tank, even an unknown baby shrimp, but what impact would the amanos have on the bio load? I have a couple of dwarf cichlids I'd eventually like to put into this tank and don't want to rule that out if I can help it.


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## spyder (14 Nov 2011)

Shrimps will add very little to the bio load. Just watch they don't become lunch.


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## cathyems (14 Nov 2011)

Quick question - I have been going through the FE set up by Themuleous, but do I need a drop checker right away, or can that be added at a future date?


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## spyder (14 Nov 2011)

Very handy to get asap. You would have no idea how much co2 you were injecting without it without performing various test's and calculating or guessing the result. With livestock in the tank it could be risky.


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## greenink (14 Nov 2011)

Yup I've killed all my fish twice... Even with a drop checker. Have now learned patience.


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## cathyems (16 Nov 2011)

Mike, I have been reading through your transparent tank challenge and other links from it and they are great - I am learning loads - I hope!  Time will tell, but I'm quite sure I will make loads more mistakes along the way.

One thing I have had confirmed, is that my flow is definitely rubbish - close to non existent!!!!


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## greenink (17 Nov 2011)

Glad it's helpful. Is all going quite well now - will post an update soon


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