# Advice on Soft vs Hard Water and pH Shock



## shangman (13 Jul 2020)

Hello! I'm a first time poster, having set up my first aquarium as an adult (last one I had was 20 years ago with my dad), and of course having some problems. I hope this is the right subforum!

I've been researching the tank I wanted for a while, all the plants, fish, etc so I thought I had everything down but of course I was wrong...

I have a 60L quite heavily planted tank, with an organic topsoil base, then a sand cap and a few large round stones.

I researched quite a lot and realised I really loved the South American fish the most, and as I have a good source rain water (big tanks coming off our greenhouses at home + alotment) I decided to use that. I live in London so otherwise I thought the water would be too hard for the plants + fish. My water details (using API master test kit)

Rainwater - pH 6.6    Am 0.25   Ni 0   Na 0   GH 4 drops   KH 4 drops
Tapwater - pH 7.8   Am  0.4   Ni  0   Na  0   GH  12+ drops/215 ppm   KH  9 drops/9 degrees /161.1ppm

The first 3 weeks went great, the aquarium cycled surprisingly quickly and this weekend I bought my first fish - 10 neon green rasboras, 4 amano shrimp and 1 nerite. Because of the plants I have zero nitrates (over the cycle the nitrates spikedand then would go down quite quickly) I floated them in the bag for 30 minutes, then used a big syringe to take out the bag water and add in some tank water over 2 hours to acclimate them. I tested the bag water which was about 8.0, which I now think is the problem - the animals got pH shock. Some of the fish had slightly ragged fins which I noticed when we got home, but I don't think if they have fin rot that this would kill them off so quickly.

Over evening and next morning 2 of the fish died, and the rest looked unhappy so in a panic I researched, decided it was probably pH shock and bought a small quarantine tank (while doing this 2 more died). I added mostly tap water (w/ conditioner), a bit of tank water and have been planning on changing a bit of water each day to the quarantine tank over a week until the pHs are almost the same. Sadly I only have 2 left. I didn't move the amanos over as they were doing things apparently happily, but now 1 of them has died. I did add some tap water to the tank so the pH of the tank is currently 7 to hopefully make their shock a bit less.

As you can see I cocked this up a bit, and I don't want to kill everything off again. I think I have 2 options (if my pH shock theory is right, please let me know if you think it could be something else!) - either quarantine all fish for a week starting with tap and going over to soft tank water (I've called all the local shops and they all seem to use tap for their tropical fish), OR just start using tap in the tank and forget the rainwater. I really want my plants to continue to thrive, and to have some kuhli loaches and german rams, which I read wanted a low pH, but I would love some advice on what everyone else thinks.

I've also noticed in the last few days that some of the plants have stopped growing (before they went mad) and I think I need to dose with iron/magnesium/phospate. Would I still need to dose if I used the tap water?

I attached a photo from during my last water change before the carnage - it's much less yellow IRL but my phone is a bit crap.


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## hypnogogia (13 Jul 2020)

What were your water values, in terms of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph, when you introduced the fish? I also think you may have introduced  too many fish in one go in a 60L tank.


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## Majsa (13 Jul 2020)

Welcome to the forum! I am sorry to hear about the losses. My first post on the forum was very similar, I bought a shoal of microdevario kubotais and they started dying one by one within hours. I acclimatised them the same way as you and they too had ragged fins. In the end I suspect they caught columnaris, which was triggered by the long period in the bag. I called the LFS and in the end they gave me a new, smaller group (once things had settled again).

Quarantining fish is never a bad idea, and I now prefer to keep the acclimatisation rather short and use a container or a bucket (out of the bag as soon as it is opened) where the fish have more space and rest. Some people just plop and drop. I don't think the PH is as important as ammonia etc. You mention the bag had a ph of 8 - it could be that there was NH3 present, which is toxic to fish. 



hypnogogia said:


> I also think you may have introduced too many fish in one go in a 60L tank.


The tank is just 3 weeks old, maybe not stable enough yet? I'd start with the amanos, and introduce the fish later.

With neon green rasboras you mean microdevario kubotai? My experience is that they do not travel well and come with issues, but once they are acclimatised they are great fish. I have ±35 swimming now, after the bad experiences I really had to breed my own (they are one year old now, from one spawn).


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## sparkyweasel (13 Jul 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> What were your water values, in terms of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph, when you introduced the fish? I also think you may have introduced  too many fish in one go in a 60L tank.


I think that's it. Did you do any water tests after introducing the fish? It could have been an ammonia or nitrite spike from adding a lot of fish at once.


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## sparkyweasel (13 Jul 2020)

Majsa said:


> With neon green rasboras you mean microdevario kubotai?


I wondered about that as @shangman said South American fish. Maybe Green Neon Tetras?


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## shangman (13 Jul 2020)

hypnogogia said:


> What were your water values, in terms of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph, when you introduced the fish? I also think you may have introduced  too many fish in one go in a 60L tank.


All three were at 0. 3 days before I spiked the aquarium with 4ppm ammonia and within 24 hours ammonia and nitrate were at 0, and nitrite was at 20. Then 24 hours later the nitrate was at 0 too.

I thought that since I had cycled with a larger amount of ammonia that amount of fish was fine. I've checked the levels every day (and on the first day twice after I added fish) and they have always been at 0. 

Looking back I think I should've just got the amanos! I'll stock less fish at a time. Should I just do 5 or 6 small schooling fish at a time?


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## shangman (13 Jul 2020)

Majsa said:


> Welcome to the forum! I am sorry to hear about the losses. My first post on the forum was very similar, I bought a shoal of microdevario kubotais and they started dying one by one within hours. I acclimatised them the same way as you and they too had ragged fins. In the end I suspect they caught columnaris, which was triggered by the long period in the bag. I called the LFS and in the end they gave me a new, smaller group (once things had settled again).
> 
> Quarantining fish is never a bad idea, and I now prefer to keep the acclimatisation rather short and use a container or a bucket (out of the bag as soon as it is opened) where the fish have more space and rest. Some people just plop and drop. I don't think the PH is as important as ammonia etc. You mention the bag had a ph of 8 - it could be that there was NH3 present, which is toxic to fish.
> 
> ...



Alas, I think I'm going to end up with just the amanos if I'm lucky!

Do you think it might not be pH then? I did wonder with the slightly dodgy fins, but most of them had fine fins and I'm down to only 2 now (I'd say 3 or 4 had slightly off fins, and those ones seemed to go first). I have been dosing the quarantine tank with melafix too just in case. If it was columnaris, wouldn't the amanos have been fine? One of them died too  

They weren't in the bag long, just the 30 car ride home, then 30 mins floating, then I started changing the water. Is your tank pH very different from your tank water? That's what I'm most nervous about. I will try the bucket and drip method next time (as well as possibly quarantining and slowly changing the water). When they were dying they would just swim in place and move as little as possible, then they stopped being able to swim properly and would swim upside down and be swept around for an hour or two  If it was a disease, why would they die so quickly after I got them home when they seem fine at the shop? 

I'll definitely wait a while longer before adding anything else, if not just to feel a bit less sad about the poor fish!! Also, probably will go to a different fish shop. 



sparkyweasel said:


> I wondered about that as @shangman said South American fish. Maybe Green Neon Tetras?



Yes they were microdevario kubotai. I was going to get some small tetras, but they were so lovely I thought I'd get them instead (and I had researched them as well and saw that their pH needs were similar, I made a massive exel file to see which would work together like that) Alas, might try some tetras next time instead, and leave the raboras for a few years.




sparkyweasel said:


> I think that's it. Did you do any water tests after introducing the fish? It could have been an ammonia or nitrite spike from adding a lot of fish at once.



I've checked this a lot and it's always at 0 for all three. The plants have been growing a lot and seem to suck everything up immediately, although it definitely is cycled. 

How many fish would you recommend I add at a time with a 60L? Also, how long do you recommend I wait in between? I will definitely be waiting a few weeks between this and my next venture.


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## shangman (13 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> All three were at 0. 3 days before I spiked the aquarium with 4ppm ammonia and within 24 hours ammonia and nitrate were at 0, and nitrite was at 20. Then 24 hours later the nitrate was at 0 too.
> 
> I thought that since I had cycled with a larger amount of ammonia that amount of fish was fine. I've checked the levels every day (and on the first day twice after I added fish) and they have always been at 0.
> 
> Looking back I think I should've just got the amanos! I'll stock less fish at a time. Should I just do 5 or 6 small schooling fish at a time?



Whoops, wrote this wrong. within 24 hours ammonia and nitrite** were at 0, and nitrate and 20. Then 24 hours later the nitrate was at 0 too.


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## shangman (13 Jul 2020)

So do you guys think that it was a spike in ammonia/nitrite, more likely than pH shock? Maybe I was too hasty and should've waited another week or two despite the values looking 'right' to let things settle. 

Is the pH shock less of a thing than I thought, and that acclimatising my fish to the water that's 1 - 1.4pH different to most London fish shop's water over a week isn't worth it? If not I will keep my low pH water. Thought I guess that quarantining is good practice anyway. 

I want to make sure I don't accidentally kill the next fish or shrimps. I'll wait 2 weeks before I think about adding more. Does anyone suggest a more hardy nano fish, or other things I can do to make sure that everything is ok?


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## Nick72 (14 Jul 2020)

Firstly, your tap water is fine.  I would not bother with rain water.

You will need to add a water conditioner, I would suggest Prime, every time you add tap water to your aquarium, but apart from that no worries.

PH 7.8, GH12, KH 9 is fine for 90% of plants and fish.  

Just focus on making sure you are fully cycled.

Test for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates every day until things settle down.  Then test once a week.  Eventually everything will be running fine and you can stop testing unless you have a specific issue or concern.

You do not have enough plant mass to consume 20ppm Nitrate in 24hrs - it's physically impossible, so there is something up there.  To be clear you don't have anywhere near enough plant mass to consume 20ppm Nitrate within a week, so this simply did not happen.

Keep testing your water until you fully understand what's going on. 

You've either lost your cycle or it's just not strong enough for the bio-load you added.  

Focus on keeping your two remaining fish alive over the next two weeks, then maybe you can start adding more.


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## shangman (14 Jul 2020)

Nick72 said:


> Firstly, your tap water is fine.  I would not bother with rain water.
> 
> You will need to add a water conditioner, I would suggest Prime, every time you add tap water to your aquarium, but apart from that no worries.
> 
> ...



I have some prime bought just in case, so I will just start using that with the tap water instead, thank you!

I'll keep testing and making sure everything is down, and do water changes if anything is up (plus weekly ones). Should it be about 30% water change, or more?

The plants and nitrates thing is interesting! I wonder what happened to it all... maybe my test is broken? It says 0 atm, but I guess it could still be high secretly and that killed them? I didn't expect the nitrates to go down a lot, I thought that would happen with water changes but when it did I just assumed the plants were taking it up. 

The last 2 fish seem to be alright atm, fingers crossed they make it ok.


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## dw1305 (14 Jul 2020)

Hi all,
Welcome, I'm sorry to <"hear about your fish">, unfortunately many of us will have had a similar experience,  but your plants are growing well, and it definitely isn't irretrievable.





shangman said:


> All three were at 0. 3 days before I spiked the aquarium with 4ppm ammonia and within 24 hours ammonia and nitrate were at 0, and nitrite was at 20. Then 24 hours later the nitrate was at 0 too. I thought that since I had cycled with a larger amount of ammonia that amount of fish was fine. I've checked the levels every day (and on the first day twice after I added fish) and they have always been at 0.





shangman said:


> The first 3 weeks went great, the aquarium cycled surprisingly quickly and this weekend I bought my first fish


My guess would be that this is your issue, your tank isn't "cycled" and levels of ammonia (NH3) are still toxic. There are some issues with both the <"added ammonia cycling concept"> and <"testing for nitrate">. Please read through the linked threads (and the threads linked into them, if you have time), if you don't want to there is a fairly <"ranty" summary"> on page 4. of @Miss-Pepper 's <"Bedside Aquarium"> (traditional apologies to Miss Pepper).





shangman said:


> with an organic topsoil base


 You may also have some issues from the <"organic topsoil">. Do you know what the soil was? and was it out of a bag? or from the garden? 





shangman said:


> I tested the bag water which was about 8.0, which I now think is the problem - the animals got pH shock.





Majsa said:


> and I now prefer to keep the acclimatisation rather short and use a container or a bucket (out of the bag as soon as it is opened) where the fish have more space and rest. Some people just plop and drop. I don't think the PH is as important as ammonia etc.


I do the same, and I also don't think that <"pH shock was your issue">. I'll be honest I've got a <"pretty jaundiced view"> of the advice offered by most LFS, forums (I know this is a forum) and <"sellers of aquarium supplies">. 





shangman said:


> and as I have a good source rain water


Personally I'm a <"rainwater user">.

If the choice was between London tap, rain-water or RO, it is definitely rainwater for me.

cheers Darrel


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## Nick72 (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> I have some prime bought just in case, so I will just start using that with the tap water instead, thank you!
> 
> I'll keep testing and making sure everything is down, and do water changes if anything is up (plus weekly ones). Should it be about 30% water change, or more?
> 
> ...




It's generally recommended to do at least one 50% water change per week.

Note that you say your tap water has 0 Nitrate - please check to reconfirm this, but if true that means every 50% water change will half the amount of Nitrate in your aquarium.  This is one of the main, but not the only, reasons regular water changes are essential.

I don't disagree with @dw1305 's view that rainwater is good stuff, I just feel blending water is a intermediate to expert level activity, it may be hard for you to ensure each water change matches the PH, KH, GH, of your aquarium, and in my view fluctuations are harmful.  They stress fish and plants and promote algae.


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## Witcher (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> organic topsoil base, then a sand cap



Sounds like perfect conditions for Ammonia and Hydrogen sulfide production. I personally think capping soil with sand should be avoided, gravel allows better mixing with water and better gas exchange.

How the soil below the sand looks like? Is there any yellowish discoloration visible at the glass? Can you pierce the soil with a long thin stick in few places (without fish in the tank) and see if there are any gasses released? If they smell like rotten eggs, it's H2S - even in tiny amounts it will be lethal for your fish.


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## Majsa (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> Do you think it might not be pH then? I did wonder with the slightly dodgy fins, but most of them had fine fins and I'm down to only 2 now (I'd say 3 or 4 had slightly off fins, and those ones seemed to go first). I have been dosing the quarantine tank with melafix too just in case. If it was columnaris, wouldn't the amanos have been fine? One of them died too
> 
> They weren't in the bag long, just the 30 car ride home, then 30 mins floating, then I started changing the water. Is your tank pH very different from your tank water? That's what I'm most nervous about. I will try the bucket and drip method next time (as well as possibly quarantining and slowly changing the water). When they were dying they would just swim in place and move as little as possible, then they stopped being able to swim properly and would swim upside down and be swept around for an hour or two  If it was a disease, why would they die so quickly after I got them home when they seem fine at the shop?



This is my post from nearly 3 years ago: What's happening to my M Kubotai...?

The symptoms were pretty much the same, but the conditions were different, my tank was a few months old and had other fish in which weren't affected. I use just tap water in this tank and I think the LFS is on the same water supply. I don't know if you can draw any conclusions from my experience, but the comments in the thread can be interesting to read. 

I agree with the others that the best thing is to get the conditions right in the coming weeks before adding any more fish. I guess that the fact that the amano died later in the tank points out to poor tank conditions, they are normally really hardy shrimp.


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## shangman (14 Jul 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Welcome, I'm sorry to <"hear about your fish">, unfortunately many of us will have had a similar experience,  but your plants are growing well, and it definitely isn't irretrievable.My guess would be that this is your issue, your tank isn't "cycled" and levels of ammonia (NH3) are still toxic. There are some issues with both the <"added ammonia cycling concept"> and <"testing for nitrate">. Please read through the linked threads (and the threads linked into them, if you have time), if you don't want to there is a fairly <"ranty" summary"> on page 4. of @Miss-Pepper 's <"Bedside Aquarium"> (traditional apologies to Miss Pepper).



Thank you Darrel for this advice and all of the links! I've read them all and most of the linked threads within as well. It was a bit overwhelming but I think I have the jist of it all... After reading this I think my problem is that I have let myself believe that the aquarium was cycled because the tests/numbers on the tests have been 'correct' after dosing regularly with ammonia, but that actually I needed to wait another month to let the plants and bacteria naturally grow. I was worried that because my tank now seemed 'cycled', that I needed to immediately add some animals to continue adding ammonia and not 'kill off' the bacteria which I read would happen somewhere... it seems like I could just leave it to mature for quite a while longer. I actually was planning on doing this before after reading the Diana Walstad's book, but in the excitement got a bit carried away. I thought that the testkits would show the danger in the tank, but perhaps not. 

I am otherwise already following the principles you put in the Bedside aquarium thread, using garden soil + sand, using collected stones, wood and leaves, adding snails (I also failed to mention I added some 6 trumpet snails and some blackworms to the tank at the same time ... added to the bioload too though I now realise (my fish shop gave them to me for free and called them pest snails which worried me about their expertise a bit)). Really what I want to do with the tank is set up a nice little ecosystem, and the walstad method really appeals to me (though I don't mind doing regular water changes). 

I am wondering.. I still have 2 fish and 2 amanos left (the fish are in the quarantine tank, the amanos in the normal tank). To help them survive, should I do a water change every day or two for 2 - 3 weeks? I am doing that in the quarantine tank already with the fish. I am also dosing the fish with melafix... should I avoid dosing the tank itself with melafix, as I'm worried that might kill some of the 'good' bacteria in the tank? I will otherwise not add anything new for a while.



In regards to the plants - some are doing amazingly, and some less so. The plants that have deep roots are doing extremely well (particularly the lotus which was planted 3 weeks ago as a bulb with 1 tiny leaf). My stem plants started out doing very well in the first 2 weeks, but in the past few days have stopped growing and the tips have started to look a bit sad. I also had some frogbit that melted away completely (everything went yellow then brown  ). I think this might be because at first the water had nutrients from the soil in it floating about, but that's all been sucked up now. I was thinking of adding some fertiliser (Easy life - Proficko my local shop has (incidentally not the shop that sold me the fish) and seems to have the missing elements (I searched this forum last night and came across the duckweed index which I think is relevant to this)). Would that negatively affect anything? I haven't had any algae yet, but noticed that as soon as the stem plants started to slow down, that it has begun creeping in. I was going to dose it and then get some more frogbit to see if it did better this time.





dw1305 said:


> You may also have some issues from the <"organic topsoil">. Do you know what the soil was? and was it out of a bag? or from the garden? I do the same, and I also don't think that <"pH shock was your issue">. I'll be honest I've got a <"pretty jaundiced view"> of the advice offered by most LFS, forums (I know this is a forum) and <"sellers of aquarium supplies">.



The top soil was Moreland Gold Organic Topsoil. In the future, would you recommend normal topsoil? My parents are avid gardeners and all of our soil is heavily enriched with home-made compost so I thought it would be too rich (though it would've had some great organisms in it as they follow a 'no-dig' method of gardening that promotes micro-organism biodiversity in the soil). I read some warnings online about soil that's too rich so thought it was best to avoid. 



dw1305 said:


> Personally I'm a <"rainwater user">.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why do you prefer rainwater to tap? For me it's the same easiness to use tapwater or rainwater, and if everyone agrees that the fish aren't dying because of the pH difference then I think I would rather stick with it, but it would be interesting to know why. I've been using rainwater as my dad who's a trained gardener thought it would be best with his experience of plants and ponds. It also has loads of mosquito larvae and daphnia or seed shrimp (not sure which) living in it, which I thought would be good food once the fish came in.


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## shangman (14 Jul 2020)

Thank you for all your help and suggestions!!



Nick72 said:


> It's generally recommended to do at least one 50% water change per week.
> 
> 
> Note that you say your tap water has 0 Nitrate - please check to reconfirm this, but if true that means every 50% water change will half the amount of Nitrate in your aquarium.  This is one of the main, but not the only, reasons regular water changes are essential.
> ...



Oh sorry I thought it was 30% I think I might need to do more than 1 a week right now since everything's gone wrong. Would a 40% twice a week be ok for a while?

So originally I thought I'd try the sort-of walstad method (didn't want to add fish immediately, also don't think I added quite enough plants for that), where I could potentially do less water changes over time. I thought that since my nitrates had gone up, then gone down dramatically, that it was doing what her book said and they were sucking them all up so water changes werne't needed. I have done 2 waterchanges in the past week anyway (before I got the fish) as I'd dosed a lot of ammonia and even though it was at 0 I thought it wouldn't hurt. I've also done 2 30% water changes since adding the fish, and added tap water as I thought it would lessen the pH shock that I thought was the problem. 

I tested the water again this morning, and once again everything is at 0,0,0. I'm going to go to my LFS tomorrow with some water and get them to test it, in case my tests are broken (although when I was officially cycling they did seem to work and showed the whole range of colours as I dosed). What I am most confused by is why the tests say 0 on everything, even though there is clearly a problem.

After reading everything here I'm planning on from now on just using the rainwater, and forgetting the tap water. When you say blending water, do you mean between rain + tap, or adding other things into the rainwater? Or do you mean that rainwaer cahnges of the seasons and I need to do things to prepare for that? The rainwater I have has a GH+KH of 4, so I don't think I need to add any buffering stuff to it.




Witcher said:


> Sounds like perfect conditions for Ammonia and Hydrogen sulfide production. I personally think capping soil with sand should be avoided, gravel allows better mixing with water and better gas exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> How the soil below the sand looks like? Is there any yellowish discoloration visible at the glass? Can you pierce the soil with a long thin stick in few places (without fish in the tank) and see if there are any gasses released? If they smell like rotten eggs, it's H2S - even in tiny amounts it will be lethal for your fish.



I used sand as I was reading about sand beds with trumpet snails and californian blackworms. I also would quite like some kuhli loaches, or some corydoras habrosus and they all seem to prefer sand. 

My tank has a bit around the bottom so I can't see most of the soil, but the bits I can see are quite black, and not yellow. I poked it, and some bubbles did come out, but they didn't smell like anything. When I planted the bed I poked it a lot, and did that again a week later. If this is the problem, is there anything I can do to help this?





Majsa said:


> This is my post from nearly 3 years ago: What's happening to my M Kubotai...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for your post. I think that perhaps I chose the absolute worst fish to start with, though I suspect everything would've had a bad time


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## shangman (14 Jul 2020)

Majsa said:


> This is my post from nearly 3 years ago: What's happening to my M Kubotai...?
> 
> The symptoms were pretty much the same, but the conditions were different, my tank was a few months old and had other fish in which weren't affected. I use just tap water in this tank and I think the LFS is on the same water supply. I don't know if you can draw any conclusions from my experience, but the comments in the thread can be interesting to read.
> 
> I agree with the others that the best thing is to get the conditions right in the coming weeks before adding any more fish. I guess that the fact that the amano died later in the tank points out to poor tank conditions, they are normally really hardy shrimp.



Was just properly reading your post again after dinner and it really is exactly the same! Had the same problem with fins, and one had a slightly red spot at the base of its tail.

I think it is different, as you said my amanos are suffering too, while yours are fine, but I think it does point to them being more fragile/badly treated in the shop fish. It's interesting to read the pointers on what I should look for in the future when buying tiny fish. What a shame, your tank with them looked very beautiful. What did you do afterwards, it says that you still had 5 at the end... did you add more so they had a nice group again? I only have 2 left, and if they survive (they're looking ok right now and are eating) I suppose I should add more in a few weeks, but also that scares me if they're fragile/the stock isn't great. Maybe I can find someone with their own quarantine tank who has a colony to give to in London.


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## sparkyweasel (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> I thought that since I had cycled with a larger amount of ammonia that amount of fish was fine.


Too much ammonia can kill your bacteria and set your 'cycle' back.
Not adding ammonia at all is probably a better idea. Darrel has linked to some good information on 'cycling' for you.


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## shangman (14 Jul 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> Too much ammonia can kill your bacteria and set your 'cycle' back.
> Not adding ammonia at all is probably a better idea. Darrel has linked to some good information on 'cycling' for you.


Yes I read Darrel's links this afternoon, I wouldn't do it again now (I read that the max was 5ppm and mostly dosed to a max of 2 - 4ppm). It's crazy that I read that method in multiple supposedly reputable sites! I'm just going to leave the tank to do it's thing for a month before thinking about adding anything else, and do weekly 50% water changes.


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## sparkyweasel (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> I was thinking of adding some fertiliser (Easy life - Proficko my local shop has


Fertiliser is a good idea; your plant that's growing well  is your Lotus, those grow from the nutrients stored in the bulb so they usually start well. But to continue to thrive, and for your other plants to do well you need some ferts.
However, we've had a number of threads where people have had problems with Profito; it's advertised as an all-in-one, complete plant food but it contains no nitrate or phosphate - two of the major plant nutrients. That may be OK in a tank overstocked with big fish, but not for most planted tanks. Look into a truly complete fert, such as TNC Complete. One that includes N, P, K and trace elements.


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## sparkyweasel (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> Yes I read Darrel's links this afternoon, I wouldn't do it again now (I read that the max was 5ppm and mostly dosed to a max of 2 - 4ppm). It's crazy that I read that method in multiple supposedly reputable sites! I'm just going to leave the tank to do it's thing for a month before thinking about adding anything else, and do weekly 50% water changes.


So I see, you posted while I was typing.


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## shangman (14 Jul 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> Fertiliser is a good idea; your plant that's growing well  is your Lotus, those grow from the nutrients stored in the bulb so they usually start well. But to continue to thrive, and for your other plants to do well you need some ferts.
> However, we've had a number of threads where people have had problems with Profito; it's advertised as an all-in-one, complete plant food but it contains no nitrate or phosphate - two of the major plant nutrients. That may be OK in a tank overstocked with big fish, but not for most planted tanks. Look into a truly complete fert, such as TNC Complete. One that includes N, P, K and trace elements.


Ahh that's very interesting about the lotus - I'd assumed it had reacted my soil and was sucking up all the goodness from that. 

I will try the TNC Complete instead, thank you! Will there be any problems adding a fertiliser with nitrate in, given that my tank is dodgy right now? I don't want to kill the animals to make the plants thrive. I assume it won't, but thought I'd ask just in case, as I have 2 shrimps and 2 fish left and am eager to not finish them off.


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## sparkyweasel (14 Jul 2020)

That level of nitrate won't be a problem. Darrel has links to lots of studies showing that fish are more tolerant of nitrate than some people would have you believe.
I suspect that the old idea that nitrates were bad came from poorly maintained tanks, where the nitrate built up over time. At the same time lots of other waste products were building up, but there are no test kits for those. Before modern thinking on planted tanks and ferts, a high nitrate reading simply meant a neglected tank.
Waste products in general are bad, but nitrates are good for your plants. Nitrates in ferts don't come with other fish waste products and you can safely dose them. Regular water changes will keep the nasty waste products under control, while your plants will consume the nitrates when they start to thrive.
There's a lot to take in, especially when you've already read a lot of stuff that's outdated or just plain wrong. 
hth


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## Majsa (14 Jul 2020)

shangman said:


> I think it is different, as you said my amanos are suffering too, while yours are fine, but I think it does point to them being more fragile/badly treated in the shop fish. It's interesting to read the pointers on what I should look for in the future when buying tiny fish. What a shame, your tank with them looked very beautiful. What did you do afterwards, it says that you still had 5 at the end... did you add more so they had a nice group again? I only have 2 left, and if they survive (they're looking ok right now and are eating) I suppose I should add more in a few weeks, but also that scares me if they're fragile/the stock isn't great. Maybe I can find someone with their own quarantine tank who has a colony to give to in London.



I think at some point I was down to 3  I got a new group 2 months later (most of them free of charge as a gesture from the LFS), but they had issues too, some of them died. 9 months later I bought some more from a different LFS, again no 100% success rate but better. At the time I started the breeding project I believe I had 10 or so. I don't think any of these "parents" are alive today (or maybe or two of the bigger ones). I think all the kubotais sold at shops are wild caught, and if their life span is ±3 years, you cannot enjoy them for very long. 



shangman said:


> I think that perhaps I chose the absolute worst fish to start with, though I suspect everything would've had a bad time



It is very upsetting when these things happen. I believe these fish are very prone to stress (from shipping, handling, substandard conditions etc.), which makes them an easy target to pathogens that are already present in the LFS or home tank water. Some other fish might have showed different signs. 



shangman said:


> Yes I read Darrel's links this afternoon, I wouldn't do it again now (I read that the max was 5ppm and mostly dosed to a max of 2 - 4ppm). It's crazy that I read that method in multiple supposedly reputable sites! I'm just going to leave the tank to do it's thing for a month before thinking about adding anything else, and do weekly 50% water changes.



Sounds like a good idea


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## MWood (15 Jul 2020)

Majsa said:


> I believe these fish are very prone to stress (from shipping, handling, substandard conditions etc.), which makes them an easy target to pathogens that are already present in the LFS or home tank water. Some other fish might have showed different signs.



Agreed, this was one of my first thoughts. Also, 2 hours of acclimatisation seems excessive to me, and possibly another source of stress (I'm also in London and a rainwater user). 

Also think that leaving a planted tank for as long as possible before adding any fish is a good idea - not least because it allows you to do more and larger water changes in the early stages with no fear of causing additional stress for livestock. Lockdown meant that the tank I set up in mid Jan didn't receive any fish till June- a little too long!


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## dw1305 (15 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





shangman said:


> After reading this I think my problem is that I have let myself believe that the aquarium was cycled because the tests/numbers on the tests have been 'correct' after dosing regularly with ammonia, but that actually I needed to wait another month to let the plants and bacteria naturally grow. I was worried that because my tank now seemed 'cycled', that I needed to immediately add some animals to continue adding ammonia and not 'kill off' the bacteria which I read would happen somewhere... it seems like I could just leave it to mature for quite a while longer.


That's it, we need to reduce levels of ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2-), because they are toxic to animal life at low levels, but it doesn't matter <"what mechanism"> we use to achieve this.  As @sparkyweasel suggests I'm not too worried about nitrate (NO3-) levels, but I know nitrification is an <"oxygen intensive process">. 

Plant/microbe biofiltration is very effective, so realistically we just need a large, grown-in, plant mass and that gets around any problems there maybe with water testing. I'm <"not anti-testing">, quite <"the opposite"> in fact, but I'm not happy to base decisions on the results of the test kits available to home aquarists, if there are better options. 

The advantage of plant/microbe filtration is that, as well as the direct uptake of fixed nitrogen by the plants, plants oxygenate the substrate particularly  <"in the rhizosphere">, the zone around the roots.  





shangman said:


> It's crazy that I read that method in multiple supposedly reputable sites!


If you don't have plants you are reliant on the tank/filter microbial assemblage for nitrification, in which case you may need to add an ammonia source, although I would still argue that the level of dissolved oxygen is more important than the ammonia addition. 

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (15 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





shangman said:


> The top soil was Moreland Gold Organic Topsoil.


I think that should be all right. It says.... 





> ....Moorland Gold top soil consists of decomposed leaf mould and sphagnum, collected  through water-filtration, which does not damage the environment. We screen our raw material before adding the necessary amount of river sand to create the optimum top soil blend.


Have a look at the posts on <"Biochemical Oxygen Demand">, I think your compost will have a high carbon to nitrogen ratio, with much of the plant left being <"resistant to microbial oxidation">.  

cheers Darrel


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (16 Jul 2020)

On the subject of rainwater, I wouldn’t use it on its own - I’d mix it with tap water. In fact, that’s precisely what I do!

Rainwater might be very, very low on KH and GH, so on its own it wouldn’t be suitable for your Amano shrimps, which need some calcium in the water for their skins. Very low KH makes it harder to maintain a stable pH.

So I’d decide what KH and GH you want, measure your rainwater and tapwater, and figure out what ratio to use. If you need to increase the GH, use Epsom salt (MgSO₄) which will also add a useful source of Magnesium.


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## dw1305 (16 Jul 2020)

Hi all, 





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Very low KH makes it harder to maintain a stable pH.


Yes, you won't have a <"stable pH with low dKH">.  I've not kept Amano shrimps, but Cherry Shrimps don't thrive in very soft water. 





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> On the subject of rainwater, I wouldn’t use it on its own - I’d mix it with tap water. In fact, that’s precisely what I do!


I do as well, I have the <"option to add our tap supply (about 17 dKH/dGH)"> to the rainwater, also because I live in a <"limestone area"> and our rainwater has some carbonate buffering from dust etc. 





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> So I’d decide what KH and GH you want, measure your rainwater and tap water, and figure out what ratio to use.


In the summer I mainly use 100% rain-water, in the winter the rainwater has lower conductivity (less dust, more rain) and <"I add a bit more tap water">.  

cheers Darrel


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## shangman (17 Jul 2020)

sparkyweasel said:


> That level of nitrate won't be a problem. Darrel has links to lots of studies showing that fish are more tolerant of nitrate than some people would have you believe.
> I suspect that the old idea that nitrates were bad came from poorly maintained tanks, where the nitrate built up over time. At the same time lots of other waste products were building up, but there are no test kits for those. Before modern thinking on planted tanks and ferts, a high nitrate reading simply meant a neglected tank.
> Waste products in general are bad, but nitrates are good for your plants. Nitrates in ferts don't come with other fish waste products and you can safely dose them. Regular water changes will keep the nasty waste products under control, while your plants will consume the nitrates when they start to thrive.
> There's a lot to take in, especially when you've already read a lot of stuff that's outdated or just plain wrong.
> hth



I've bought some TNC Complete and started dosing yesterday. Looking forward to having my plants get a bit perkier again, thankyou for the recomendation. It is a lot to take in! I'm just going to do whatever you guys say and see how that goes. Super happy I found the forum and it's filled with so many experienced helpful people 



Majsa said:


> I think at some point I was down to 3  I got a new group 2 months later (most of them free of charge as a gesture from the LFS), but they had issues too, some of them died. 9 months later I bought some more from a different LFS, again no 100% success rate but better. At the time I started the breeding project I believe I had 10 or so. I don't think any of these "parents" are alive today (or maybe or two of the bigger ones). I think all the kubotais sold at shops are wild caught, and if their life span is ±3 years, you cannot enjoy them for very long.
> 
> It is very upsetting when these things happen. I believe these fish are very prone to stress (from shipping, handling, substandard conditions etc.), which makes them an easy target to pathogens that are already present in the LFS or home tank water. Some other fish might have showed different signs.
> 
> Sounds like a good idea



Oh goodness, looking at that breeding tank makes me want them all over again! Perhaps in a few years when I've got a bigger tank and more experience! 



MWood said:


> Agreed, this was one of my first thoughts. Also, 2 hours of acclimatisation seems excessive to me, and possibly another source of stress (I'm also in London and a rainwater user).
> 
> Also think that leaving a planted tank for as long as possible before adding any fish is a good idea - not least because it allows you to do more and larger water changes in the early stages with no fear of causing additional stress for livestock. Lockdown meant that the tank I set up in mid Jan didn't receive any fish till June- a little too long!



I'm thinking of getting new livestock (some amanos first only) in September, and to the tank another 6+ weeks of water changes (50/50 rain and tap) and plant growth to establish, now I've learnt that patience is key. I want to make sure that everything that comes into the tank feels like they've entered a glorious eden where they can thrive, rather than a death trap! 

How long and what method do you use for acclimatising? I want to make sure I know the best method for next time.


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## shangman (17 Jul 2020)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I think that should be all right. It says.... Have a look at the posts on <"Biochemical Oxygen Demand">, I think your compost will have a high carbon to nitrogen ratio, with much of the plant left being <"resistant to microbial oxidation">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Ahh this is very interesting, thank you! Glad that I haven't cocked it up at the very first step, it would be very sad to have to completely restart with different soil.




Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> On the subject of rainwater, I wouldn’t use it on its own - I’d mix it with tap water. In fact, that’s precisely what I do!
> 
> Rainwater might be very, very low on KH and GH, so on its own it wouldn’t be suitable for your Amano shrimps, which need some calcium in the water for their skins. Very low KH makes it harder to maintain a stable pH.
> 
> So I’d decide what KH and GH you want, measure your rainwater and tapwater, and figure out what ratio to use. If you need to increase the GH, use Epsom salt (MgSO₄) which will also add a useful source of Magnesium.



Thank you! I'm definitely doing this. My rainwater at home has a kH+GH of 4, but at my allotment (my secondary source in case the rainwater at home isn't enough) is 0,0, so I think this makes total sense. I was thinking of adding a cuttlebone, but I think a bit of tap is a better option. What proportion do you use, and what is your pH?




dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Yes, you won't have a <"stable pH with low dKH">.  I've not kept Amano shrimps, but Cherry Shrimps don't thrive in very soft water. I do as well, I have the <"option to add our tap supply (about 17 dKH/dGH)"> to the rainwater, also because I live in a <"limestone area"> and our rainwater has some carbonate buffering from dust etc. In the summer I mainly use 100% rain-water, in the winter the rainwater has lower conductivity (less dust, more rain) and <"I add a bit more tap water">.
> 
> cheers Darrel


I read that Amanos like it between 6.5 - 7.5, though to me it makes sense for them to prefer 7+. I have a question about the rainwater - mine is quite yellow and dirty looking. Have you got any methods for cleaning it up? I must admit the sparkle of tap is quite appealing compared to the cloudy yellow rainwater. It also has an enormous amount of mosquito larae in it, though I'm hoping to get some fish that will love to eat those later on. Incidentally, does anyone hhave any suggestions for favourite 60L-appropriate fish that would love to eat them but not eat amanos? 

______

This morning I tested the water, and after doing some reading on water changes (where it said don't just take water from the top of the tank, but also from the bottom... I'd just been using a jug to take it from the top as the tank is small)... I took out my syringe and tested the water from the bottom of the tank (though i didn't also check the top so it couldve been the same there). The water was Am 0, Ni 0.25, and Na 3 (ish, between 0 and 5). I wonder if this is my problem, that at the top of the tank there's not much bad stuff, and I didn't realise it was at the bottom of the tank. Either way, I did another water change of 50%, and I think I'll do a mini 25% during the week (and 50% weekends). The shrimp look like they've perked up since I did that (they were hiding in a leaf in the corner not doing that much before). I did 50% rain, 50% tap.... I thought it was urgent enough to just try that, and now I have next week off I'll test out the 'best' proportions of water. 

Current stats before water change - you can see that the past few water changes have been with tap as I panicked about pH shock, and the pH is 1.2 high than it was when I started - though only 50% max of the water should be tap, so the pH rises very quickly when adding the tap.

ph 7.8
am- 0
ni - 0.25
na - 3 (between 0 and 5)
gh- 9
kh - 7

I think it'll probably be more like 20 - 30% tap in the end - I'm hoping for a pH around 7. The rainwater is quite 'ugly' though, not sure what to do about that. I think I can't use a carbon filter as it'll make the fertilising a moot point. Is it crazy to put the water in a bucket the day before with a mini filter filled with carbon? What do you all do (or do you like the look?).


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## MirandaB (17 Jul 2020)

I was going to ask if you were filtering the rainwater through some carbon as being in London pollution would be a concern to me so filtering in a bucket beforehand sounds a good idea.


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## shangman (18 Jul 2020)

MirandaB said:


> I was going to ask if you were filtering the rainwater through some carbon as being in London pollution would be a concern to me so filtering in a bucket beforehand sounds a good idea.


Would you just put in a small filter the bucket with some carbon the night before? Not entirely sure of the best way to do it!

Was also wondering if I could/should add a filtration bit to the waterbutt itself so it has to go through carbon before it goes into the butt.


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## shangman (22 Jul 2020)

Just a little update....

I think I've realise a big problem with the tank and why things weren't going great. My filter (an Eheim Pickup60) wasn't creating a very strong flow, and so I researched getting a bigger one. I then found a youtube video that pointed out that the top outflow of the filter can be pulled up to increase flow... I somehow totally missed this in the instructions! I've fixed that now, and the flow is so much stronger, now all of my plants wave in the water pleasantly and the water seems much cleaner - it seems like I was only using about a third of the capasity of the filter before. My last remaining amano has started doing more normal behaviours (going around eating all day on all sorts of surfaces, instead of hiding under a leaf the whole time). Also, my malaysian snails which I thought may be dead (though I sniffed them and they smelt fine so I'd left them) have started to move around again after a week of not moving. I think the big weekly waterchanges + the new flow have really cleaned up the tank a lot. 

On top of that, all my plants are recovering and thriving now I've started dosing with the TNC Complete. The stargrass has gone from yellow to bright green and massive very quickly, the wallichii which was dying has grown lots of new feathery bits, everything is growing new leaves. My lily even has an emergent leaf (though that's probably just a coincidence if they take all their energy from the bulb). I've bought a selection of floating plants to help do their bit, and keep an eye on if the fertilising amount is enough. 

I'm still going to wait until mid-August before adding some cherry shrimp from a local breeder as a test, and then some more amanos if they go ok 2 weeks later. I'm currently waiting for my amano Crusoe to moult, since it looked like the last 2 died from an unsuccessful moult (they had the white ring around their bodies). The ph is 7.5 and the KH and GH are 9 and 7 (in drops on the test), which shoud be enough for a healthy moult.


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