# Ready To Throw In the Towel



## mark4785 (18 Apr 2011)

Here are my aquarium's specifications:
Tank specifications - 120 litres
Lighting - 2 x 24W T5 Hagen fluorescent bulbs (4000 K each). Photoperiod is: 6 hours.
CO2 - Pressurised (Dennerle Comfort Range c02 cylinder).
Filtration - 1x Bluwave 05 internal filter (only 350 LPH), 1x unknown brand internal filter (2000 LPH with UV light), 2x Koralia powerheads (each with 900 LPH flow rate).
Fertilisation routine - EI

Hi,

My name is Mark and I've owned a planted aquarium for around 6 months now. I initially just wanted to run an ordinary aquarium with no live plants but decided that as growing aquatics plants is something I've never tried I should perhaps give it ago.

During the 6 months that I've had the aquarium has a planted aquarium I cannot detail in words how frustrating it has been to maintain it. I initially had brown diatoms growing on the glass and some of my starter plants which eventually completely covered their leaves and I just ended up throwing them away. Once I had got passed the diatom stage (which I'm told is caused by microscopic ammonia traces) I began having issues with cyanobacteria growing on all surfaces in the aquarium. In total, I did 3x 5 day black outs to get rid of it and finally established that low nitrate and/or low circulation was it's cause which prompted me to purchase the 2000 LPH internal filter and 2x Koralia powerheads.

Soon after installing the above appliances in conjunction with starting EI-dosing (as opposed to relying on Easycarbo fertilisers) the cyanobacteria never returned. However, a multitude of algaes have now took its place, namely green hair algae (it's growing really quickly), green-spot algae, green-dust algae and black beard algae.

I've been told that:-
1. black beard algae is caused by low c02
2. green hair algae is caused by excess nutrients (no idea what this means as EI dosing is based on providing an excess).
3. green-dust algae is caused by low c02.
4. green-spot algae is caused by low phosphate.

In response to the above causes of algae, I increased by c02 injection by making 3 bubbles a second pass through the bubble-counter and ensured that as a part of my EI dosing regime, 8 ppm of nitrate and 2 ppm of phosphate enters the aquarium on the days in which I dose macro-nutrients. Here is my exact daily EI dosing regime:

Monday - Conduct 50% W/C at end of the day and add 10ml of Potassium Nitrate (effectively adds 8ppm) and 10ml of Monopotassium Phosphate (effectively adds 2ppm).
Tuesday - Add 5-6ml of EDTA chelate trace solution (2.5ml per 50 litres is what should be applied according to Untitled Document)
Wednesday - Add the Monopotassium Phosphate and Potassium Nitrate again.
Thursday - Conduct 20-30% W/C and syphon surface of substrate. Add EDTA chelate trace solution.
Friday - Add the Monopotassium Phosphate and Potassium Nitrate again.
Saturday - Add EDTA chelate TPN trace solution. Conduct 20-30% W/C and syphon surface of substrate.
Sunday - Rest day.
Note: I'm also spot-dosing 2-3ml of Easycarbo every day to get rid of algae. Kinda fighting a losing battle though since I'm not tackling the route cause of it.

Despite employing the above regime, which involves a lot of effort for someone with type 1 diabetes, I'm not getting the results that I want. I'm experiencing a lot of frustration due to not knowing the solution to stopping these algaes from growing and would therefore appreciate any help.

A few members of a different planted tank community have suggested my plant density is too low in a such way that my aquarium can't be actually called a 'planted aquarium'. Below I have provided some pictures and a link to a Youtube video to show my plant density.

Video URL:




Various Pictures:











There aren't really that many plants because I was told (by a member of another planted aquarium website) to not clump plants together otherwise it will create deadspots which in turn will cause algae outbreaks, at the same time he remarked that I should plant up which would inevitably have a clumping effect.

That isn't the only contradictory advice I've received. I just want an answer to the problems I'm faced with because it wouldn't be a joke if I said I'm close to having a nervous break down.

Mark.


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## Garuf (18 Apr 2011)

More plants would be my suggestion, loads more. Almost everything is in line, a good cleaning regime too will help, wiping the glass weekly etc. 
The groundworks there it's just building upon it.


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## mark4785 (18 Apr 2011)

Garuf said:
			
		

> More plants would be my suggestion, loads more. Almost everything is in line, a good cleaning regime too will help, wiping the glass weekly etc.
> The groundworks there it's just building upon it.



Thanks for the quick reply.

Could my algae issues be solely down to lack of plants? Or in other words, would putting NPK into an aquarium with no plants equal a very bad algae outbreak.


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

Hey Mark, welcome....have a brew and chill 

Joining this forum is a step in the right direction.

As Garuf said more plant mass would help a lot, along with tighter maintenance. 

The EI schedule isn't a strong point of mine to say the least but from reading journals most will do a single 50% water change at the end of the week, and your dosing maybe abit upset by the midweek change?  but somone with more ei knowledge will most likely shoot me down on that (and right fully so if I'm talking shite) haha.

Alsooooo is the UV filter really needed, not herd of anyone else here using them. So don't know if that directly causing a problem but could be adding to it.

clean clean clean !!! Haha main advice, get stuck into the forum checking out the journals espcially, not just for inspiration but also to see what other regime and maintenance others have taken to there tanks, also yourll read about problems they encountered and how they over come them, in general just a good place to get a lot of knowledge. People here are more than willing to talk about there experiences and stuff with there tanks so just ask 

Good luck mate, your on the right track


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

Also having co2 and lights set on a timer will help a ton

Lights come on at 9am off at 5pm (8hour light period)
Co2 comes on at 7am and shuts off at 3pm....

I wouldn't attempt a 8hour lighting period untill more densly planted.

Having the co2 staggered to come on before the lights gives enough time for the water to become co2 enriched ready for lights on. Your looking for you drop checker to be lime green by lights on.


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## bigmatt (18 Apr 2011)

We've all been there mate! As nayr88 says check out the journals and you'll see that EVERYONE gets algae probs at some point!
I'm no expert (hopefully one of the cleverer people will pick this up) but his would be my stepwise management plan to sort out the probs
1) Sit down, have a brew/beer (depending on mood/time of day)
2) Strip out the kit from your tank and give everyhting a good clean - glass, equipment and cutting dead/dying leaves off affected plants (remember to clean filter media in old tank water to saev the bacteria!)
3)You've got a ton of flow - it must be like a washing machine in there! The problem with having so much flow from so many sources is that you can easy create turbulent or chaotic flow patterns, which contribute to dead spots and the accumulation of ammonia with subsequent algae blooms.  I'd remove the smaller internal, and put the larger filter and one (or both) or the Koralias on the back glass at the top of the tanks, and have them blowing the flow across the top of the tank , and then down the front glass.  Ceg4048 (who's a bit good at this) attributes most algae problems to flow/distribution issues.  If you fancy spending some money go for a large external filter with spraybar - it's easier to get a consistent flow pattern but you should be able to do loads wiotht he kit you already have, so this isn't an essential 
3) Get hold of plenty of fast growing stems - Elodea (sometimes found in pond sections) is a favourite choice as it grows like a weed, but hydrocotyle or some of the rotala species would be handy as well. Plant plenty of these as the fast growing stems will outcompete the algae for nutrients.  My major realisation in the algae war was to undertsand that algae are basically very simple plants - if you grow algae, you can grow plants! the way i think about it, because plants are a bit more complex they outcompete the algae for nutrients, but you need to have adequate plant mass to do this.  Ensure your planting doesn't mess with your flow pattern (eg the stems don't grow up in front of the koralias)
4)Look at your CO2 - how are you diffusing it into your tank?  Again, ensure your CO2 distribution is even and consistent across your tank - this'll stop the BBA from recurring.  The best way of getting rid of the BBA you already have is spot dosing with Liquid carbon (LC) - cut off the worst affected leaves, then with your filter off apply a 1:10 solution of LC to the BBA, leave for 5 mins then restart your filter.  You should see the BBA turn pinky/purple immediately as it dies.  Be sure not to overdose LC - it's dangerous stuff, just do a bit every day with your daily dose.

I'm sure others will correct me or point out stuff i've missed, but the beauty of this forum is the accumulation of experience and knowledge.
Good luck mate - in case of frustration always reset to step one!  We're British dammit - there's no problem that can't be solved with tea!
Matt


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## spyder (18 Apr 2011)

You seem to have invested a considerable sum in equipment then tightened up the budget on the plants. More plants as already suggested is the way forward. In a similar post I saw 1 member say "your effectively growing algae".

If it was me I would go scrape/clean everything up then go with a good 60% WC removing the algae in the process then plant it up. Again, already mentioned but get plenty of bunches of stems. They grow quickly given the right conditions and will help keep your water parameters in check.

Good luck with it and I hope you nail it. Keep us posted.


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## JenCliBee (18 Apr 2011)

I'm not sure why everybody is saying buy more plants?... this is a genuine question by the way lol.

Many start there tanks off to watch it grow out... yet you are all telling him to basically stock his tank?.

I'm a little confused to why everybody is suggesting this when there are loads of members that have used very little or very young plants/lets and also used the EI method and had nothing like these problems... yes other aspects have probably been covered..ie co2, distribution etc etc.

I know this isn't my thread but im sure the OP would like to know the reasons why you are all suggesting stocking his tank with a higher plant mass as much as i would like to know when as i said there are many that use even less plants to watch a tank fill and grow out.

Sorry if im missing something here  :?


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## mark4785 (18 Apr 2011)

> I'm a little confused to why everybody is suggesting this when there are loads of members that have used very little or very young plants/lets and also used the EI method and had nothing like these problems... yes other aspects have probably been covered..ie co2, distribution etc etc.



Your reply is just the reply I was looking for. This is not to say everyone else's input is less important, but JenClibee's reply has struck a cord so to speak.

I'm VERY very reluctant to purchase more plants just to have them infested with algae; its better to have a smaller amount of plants become infected with algae than a larger amount. I've tried so many things now that I'm actually starting to lose my patience and my health and sleep is getting impacted on to some degree.

With regards to lighting, the photoperiod is 6 hours, so I can't say thats causing the algae.
As for c02, the drop-checker always indicates a light green at lights on (it's timed to come on 2 hours prior to the lights coming on).
As for the cleaning, I clean the appliances and glass less often because all the cleaning does is re-distribute the algae somewhere else.
In response to Nayr88 who mentioned the bi-weekly W/C contributing to upset of the EI dosing: I'm not sure what kind of impact this has but I was told by a member of fishforums.net that an extra 20% W/C or 2 would not effect things too much.

If I was to hazard a guess as to what is causing the algae it would be:

1. The small amount of light coming through the blinds at sunrise before the c02 is at a optimum level
2. Mulm and detritus during filter maintenace: when I put my filter media in my Cayman 05 internal filter (the useless one with a 350 LPH flow rate) back into it's slot in the filter, it pushes any left over detritus/mulm back into the water column. The effect of this is that the aquarium is probably dirtier than it was before I even started cleaning the filters. The same happens with the other internal; while it's switched off, if you move it as little as 2cm, all the detritus it's sucked into it's grills will go back into the water column.
3. Small plant mass may be contributing. I'm sure a larger plant mass wouldn't fair much better given the 2 problems outlined above.

Here is a video of the aquarium before I was adviced by an external website to not bunch my Limnophila sessiflora and Bacopa together. There is less algae present, so maybe I should go back to planting the way in which I chose to plant things?






> If you fancy spending some money go for a large external filter with spraybar - it's easier to get a consistent flow pattern but you should be able to do loads wiotht he kit you already have, so this isn't an essential



What external would you suggest I use Bigmatt?

My aquarium isn't an open-top aquarium so getting an external filter with spraybar installed will probably involve removing the hood, right?


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## bigmatt (18 Apr 2011)

Putting more plants in the aquarium helps because the plants out-compete the algae for nutrients.  In your system at present you are providing maximum nutrients with few plants to use them.  This means that any algae bloom (once triggered) has a massive amount of "food" to develop and grow.  I specifically suggested Elodea because it's cheap as chips and grows like a weed, so you should (hopefully!) see improvement without a massive financial outlay   You can even cut the stems in half or thirds before planting to further enhance the  growth and maximise your investment.  Sounds like your filter mulm may be contributing as well.  In terms of cleaning scrub everything THEN do a water change - so the contaminated water is removed with the water change.  
Remember it's not an exact science - spend a bit of time looking through the journals (start to finsih - don't just look at the end pages)for the "plenty" who don't have algae problems there are plenty, plenty more who suffer massive algae issues at some point, including the "great and the good"!
FINALLY...do not lose sleep - it's only a fish tank!  I understand your frustrations but it is only a fish tank...
And if all else fails, make a brew! 
Hope this helps
Matt


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## ceg4048 (18 Apr 2011)

bigmatt said:
			
		

> ...Putting more plants in the aquarium helps because the plants out-compete the algae for nutrients. ...


Hi, this is absolutely NOT why adding more plants help. For the umpteenth time, Plants cannot compete with algae...Ever. For the umpteenth time algae do not care about the level of nutrients in the tank.

Light causes algae. A lot of light causes a lot of algae.

In order to help recover the tank to full health, the OP is advised to disable 50% of the bulbs if possible for now.

As indicated earlier by Matt, although the OP appears to have sufficient flow rating, a review of the photograph provided reveals that the pumps are not working together. The flow appears to be incoherent. It is not a good idea to point the pump effluents in opposite direction. A general rule of thumb is to have all pumps pointing in the same direction.

An injection rate increase might also be called for as most of the algal forms mentioned are CO2 related. Is the dropchecker filled with 4dKH distilled water? Is the dropchecker lime green by the time the lights are on?

This is where to start, reduce light intensity, attempt to achieve uniform flow so that all the plants are gently moving and then look to improve injection rate. If possible perform 2X or even 3X per week 50% water changes to remove as many spores as possible until the crisis is over, then resume 1X per week 50% changes.

Cheers,


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## bigmatt (18 Apr 2011)

And as if by magic..Clive appeared!  
I thought i might be wrong on something...
Matt


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## Gfish (18 Apr 2011)

And please don't tell us Type 1 diabetes makes this tough for you. That gives others the totally wrong impression of diabetic folk. And before you react, I know what I'm talking about on this ok.

Sorry about that, it just niggled me. 
Clive and others have given you great advice, but one other thing to do to help is buy the right creatures to inhabit that will help the tank keep clean on it's own. 
Chuck in load of shrimps, otocinclus and Ancistrus and the manual cleaning job will be made so much easier for you.

I agree with the point one poster made, don't add loads of plants until the problem has been addressed and rectified. Otherwise you'll have more plants to cut damaged leaves from and dose liquid carbon to. Not to mention the waste of your hard earned cash.

Once the issues of flow and distribution are addressed then come back to the plant purchasing.

Cheers

Gavin


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

Some really good advice here, glad to see everyone getting involved, we have all been here and know how freaking annoying it is.

If I'd come to this forum 1st I think I'd of saved a whole lot of scrilla..

To summerise 

Move filters so flow is uniform, high up facing the front pane usually works for me.
Less light for now
Increase co2 slightly
Do a massive clean. THEN water change. 2-3x50% weekly.

Once in check

More plant mass.....choose plants carefully (flast growing low light aquatic sepcies) if yuour not sure ask  and as for the spend why not have a look around get your post count up to around 30 and look at the 'for sale' thread there some big bargains to be had from 2nd hand filters to plants so keep an eye on it, I for one would be willing to send you some floating plants (amazon frogbit) a lot of people use it in the innitial grow in it looks amazing in a jungle style tank too. 

A clean up crew  amano shrimp can cost around 3quid each but there hardcore algae munchers, ottocinclus (spelling?) Also good for munching algae. 

Weekly water changes instead of doing 2 or 3.

A fluval 305 wouldn't be a bad choise for this tank with 1100lph flow grab a spray bar too and yourll be 'loling' all over the place haha , you may be about to modify your tanks hood to take the filter in and out, are you a diy kinda guy? It would be more then cutting 2 slots.

Matt I'm loving the 'make a brew' advice, exactly what I do when I'm abit stressed....than again a brew and having a looking into your tank when all is when is very satisfying ....haha


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## mark4785 (18 Apr 2011)

> And please don't tell us Type 1 diabetes makes this tough for you. That gives others the totally wrong impression of diabetic folk. And before you react, I know what I'm talking about on this ok.



I suggest you don't discuss type 1 diabetes with me as in what you've just said, you've made me feel very angry I'm afraid. When I tell somebody something which has a factual basis I don't expect people to come to me and state that it is fictional, so please don't go there in future Gfish as what you just said hurt.



> In order to help recover the tank to full health, the OP is advised to disable 50% of the bulbs if possible for now.



Hi Cleg or Clive,

I can't do that since taking one bulb out disables the other.



> As indicated earlier by Matt, although the OP appears to have sufficient flow rating, a review of the photograph provided reveals that the pumps are not working together. The flow appears to be incoherent. It is not a good idea to point the pump effluents in opposite direction. A general rule of thumb is to have all pumps pointing in the same direction.



Thank you for that, I had no idea that something like this could cause problems. I currently have one powerhead and the slow internal on the right pane of glass which have outlets shifting water to the left of the tank. I've now turned the powerhead on the left pane off to stop it shoving water in the opposite direction. As for the 2000 LPH internal, I guess I'll point it's outlet nozzle towards the front of the tank.



> An injection rate increase might also be called for as most of the algal forms mentioned are CO2 related. Is the dropchecker filled with 4dKH distilled water? Is the dropchecker lime green by the time the lights are on?



Yes.



> A fluval 305 wouldn't be a bad choise for this tank with 1100lph flow grab a spray bar too and yourll be 'loling' all over the place haha , you may be about to modify your tanks hood to take the filter in and out, are you a diy kinda guy? It would be more then cutting 2 slots.



Nayer, I'm not into DIY at all and don't know where to start with doing such modifications. One thing I thought i'd mention is that my lights, heater and internal filter (350 LPH one) are all wired to the same plug which means the task of swapping to an external would only be possible once I've ideally removed the internal from it's "electrical bond"..


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## bigmatt (18 Apr 2011)

...then have a brew...
Listen to ceg4048 - he's a real algae guru and helped me no end in sortingout a massive BGA outbreak. 
nayr88 has summarised things nicely
Time for a brew...
Matt


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

Quick one on the filter, if you could a fluval 405 would be really good with spray bar,  depends on your budget mate. Again there's other sections of the forum for particular questions like what filter to fit a specific budget ect.


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

To re summerise...


GET A BREW INSIDE YOU!!!!! Haha

Then re read haha.


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## mark4785 (18 Apr 2011)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> Quick one on the filter, if you could a fluval 405 would be really good with spray bar,  depends on your budget mate. Again there's other sections of the forum for particular questions like what filter to fit a specific budget ect.


Budget is not a problem at all. Would I be able to get the necessary things attached to the Fluval through my aquarium hood safely? I don't wany loose pipes sticking out of the aquarium lol.


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## a1Matt (18 Apr 2011)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> > In order to help recover the tank to full health, the OP is advised to disable 50% of the bulbs if possible for now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try reducing the light by another method. For example move the light source higher, or put something slightly opaque over the light (try not to set anything on fire doing this though  )


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

Mark, lift the lid of the tank and get a shot of the lid and where the lid connects,
I'd say chances are you will be able to use the filter, what make is the tank? There maybe someone on the forum who has done the same? Ill go back and check your details you gave and if its there ill have a hunt for you.

The 405 is sold without spray bar but you'll be able to buy if from the same place you buy the filter from. It does come with inlet and an outlet(jet type). 

How are you defusing your co2? 

Cheers


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## mark4785 (18 Apr 2011)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> Mark, lift the lid of the tank and get a shot of the lid and where the lid connects,
> I'd say chances are you will be able to use the filter, what make is the tank? There maybe someone on the forum who has done the same? Ill go back and check your details you gave and if its there ill have a hunt for you.
> 
> The 405 is sold without spray bar but you'll be able to buy if from the same place you buy the filter from. It does come with inlet and an outlet(jet type).
> ...



The make of the tank is Ferplast and my aquarium holds 120 litres.

I will take a picture as soon as I can.

I'm diffusing c02 using something called 'up co2 Atomiser 20'. It can be found here: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/up-co2- ... -2161.html .

Thanks for your help.


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## m_attt (18 Apr 2011)

regarding the light, can u get one of the clip on reflectors and put it on so its under the light so reflecting the water back to the hood.


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## nayr88 (18 Apr 2011)

Hello mate,

Right I couldn't find anything on your particular tank being diy'ed but that doesn't mean it can't be done,

All you need to do is cut 2 slots in the back of the lid, you make a slot not a hole as you still need to lift the lid without the tubing being pinched, are your following me?

The diffuser your using seems good enough, a lot more people are opting for inline diffusers to get a more even spread and distribution of co2. 


Cheers


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## mfcphil (18 Apr 2011)

Light is the Devil.....  

I reduced my light which solved months of heartache!


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## dw1305 (19 Apr 2011)

Hi all,
I don't think you have enough plants, but as other people have suggested they will grow and fill out. I'd start by reducing all of the "3 pillars" of plant growth - Light, CO2 and Nutrients. I'd suggest turning of the CO2, and adding a layer of Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium_) or similar to the tanks surface, this will have the advantage of access to atmospheric CO2 and of diffusing the light to the lower levels of the tank. I'd also reduce the nutrient input, once some semblance of stability has appeared you can then increase the light, CO2 and nutrients. Others will disagree, but have a look here. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14061&hilit=frogbit+index#p146248>.

If you can't find any_ Limnobium, (or Salvinia or Pistia)_ locally, PM me as I always have some spare I can post.

cheers Darrel


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## a1Matt (19 Apr 2011)

I linked to that same post of yours in another thread earlier today Darrel!


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## mark4785 (19 Apr 2011)

> One thing I thought i'd mention is that my lights, heater and internal filter (350 LPH one) are all wired to the same plug which means the task of swapping to an external would only be possible once I've ideally removed the internal from it's "electrical bond"..



Just had an electrician visit the house and he had told me it would be unsafe to assign a plug to each appliance (lights, heater and internal filter) as it could cause an overload.

So the only way forward to be able to install an external filter is to rip the hood off and bin all of the appliances and start a fresh with a new hood.


I've acted on Ceg's advice and pointed all of the filter outlets and powerheads in the same direction for the benefit of coherent circulation.

I've cleaned all of the surfaces of the tank with a toothbrush and I'm using as much Easycarbo as I can safely use in a 24 hr period to kill off any remaining algae.

The aquarium now looks pretty clean but i'm not confident i've done in enough to stop black beard algae and hair algaes (which are most prominent) coming back.

Also, some posters have said I need to lower my lighting by putting some sort of buffer in between the bulbs and the water column. It's not practical really and I don't think it's very safe. The light reflectors are still installed so I guess I could remove them but again, how can someone be certain that this will prevent BBA and hair algae; won't it just still grow but at a slower rate?

Should I be tackling light as the cause of algae or lack of plant mass? I'm a bit confused now.


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## nayr88 (19 Apr 2011)

Mate the way I summerised it would answe that pretty clear.

If you can't change the bulb or deffuse, I'd opt for an even shorter lighting period.

Chuck the uv steriliser


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## mark4785 (19 Apr 2011)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> I don't think you have enough plants, but as other people have suggested they will grow and fill out. I'd start by reducing all of the "3 pillars" of plant growth - Light, CO2 and Nutrients. I'd suggest turning of the CO2, and adding a layer of Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium_) or similar to the tanks surface, this will have the advantage of access to atmospheric CO2 and of diffusing the light to the lower levels of the tank. I'd also reduce the nutrient input, once some semblance of stability has appeared you can then increase the light, CO2 and nutrients. Others will disagree, but have a look here. <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14061&hilit=frogbit+index#p146248>.
> 
> If you can't find any_ Limnobium, (or Salvinia or Pistia)_ locally, PM me as I always have some spare I can post.
> ...



Reducing nutrient input has had the effect of causing blue-green algae almost immediately (presuming you're talking about macro-nutrients).

Wouldn't Amazon frogbit cause a lack of algae growth as well as a lack of plant growth (esp in the case of my fast growers)?


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## nayr88 (19 Apr 2011)

To be honest, what harm will it do to try the ifs and buts your giving to people who have successful planted tanks already 

The flow you've sorted, so that's good. You've done a good clean and water change, keep doing the waters changes and cleaning any algae you see pop up. 

As for ferts back of a little to suit your plant mass....so maybe just NPK mix? 
Or purchase more plants and dose fully.

Amazon frogbit was suggested..why? Because it will block the light a little and will absorb a bomb or nutrients, and also because you mentioned about spending money on plants for waste because you was sceptical and 2 people have offerd you a portion of it.

Upload a pic and let's see how the clean has turned out bro 

Thanks


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## CeeJay (19 Apr 2011)

Hi mark4785


			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> Just had an electrician visit the house and he had told me it would be unsafe to assign a plug to each appliance (lights, heater and internal filter) as it could cause an overload.


You'd better get yourself another electrician   (That's my trade too   )

On a serious note, as mentioned before, Planted tanks follow these rules,  Light > CO2 > Ferts, in that order. Control the light and you have much more room for error on the CO2 & ferts.
JenCliBee  asked why everyone suggested more plants. One good reason for filling your tank with plants is that they will use any ammonia produced by fish etc. (Light + Ammonia = algae........... guaranteed) and the faster growing plants will use it quicker too. Win win situation.
Sounds like you've now got your flow right and got your ferts right. That leaves the light and CO2 to get sorted and you'll be there.
Good luck and keep us posted.


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## nayr88 (19 Apr 2011)

Oh yeah, I didn't pick up on your electricians comment mark, sounds to me like he wants to wire and bill you to add a couple more sockets haha  how else is everyone in the country runing lights filter heater and co2 solenoid? Haha.

I mentioned ealier to bin the UV, don't  haha I've just been told there find


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## mark4785 (20 Apr 2011)

> That leaves the light and CO2 to get sorted and you'll be there.



Well I've ordered some Amazon frogbit from eBay and I'll try using it in the aquarium. I'm not that hopeful that it will last because one of my internal's has a intake grill at the surface (which is where this plant will be located) and it may get sucked in. I think they are suitable to be in an environment down to 4 degrees C so if it starts to die or get sucked into the filter, I'll transfer it to my pond and let it grow there.



> You'd better get yourself another electrician  (That's my trade too  )



I trust the electrician's advice. He's a friend of the family and we've known him for many years so I'm not going against what he's said. If theres anybody to pick fault with, it's Ferplast; oh wait, there HQ is based in italy so they won't understand me if I had a complaint??

As requested, here are some newer pictures of the aquarium *(sorry to those who I'm not naming, I'm still getting used to this phpBB software)*:

*Whole Aquarium*






*Strange Growths - Not sure what it is!*





*close-up*





*One Bacopa with same growths*





There is also some green hair algae which I missed and will remove tomorrow.

Note: the drop checker is not mounted as it dropped off the glass (yet again!). I'm awaiting a newer one to arrive which I'm hoping isn't so fiddly and which suckers to the glass properly.


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## nayr88 (20 Apr 2011)

Whoa whoa whoa!! What about the left pane of glass! Haha  thick with algae, 

Sometime if I notice some furry algae on my plants ill gently rub the leave with my hands or pick it of with tweezers. 

Also In the picture the Koralia on the left seems to be flowing toward the other end of the tank, hindering you co2 distribution. 

If it was me I would have both koralias mounted on the back wall pointing towards to front panel and slightly pointed downwards only slightly though, I would the have the diffuser on the back wall in the centre, I would also do my best to hide the cables ect, your sparky mate might give you some cable ties to use with the sticky back pads that you can pull the cable tie through and stick inside your hood.  

I could of send you double and ebay portion just for postage costs mate, let me know how your portion turns out and ill send you some extra for a couple quid.

Next keep an eye out for some really easy to grow stems, and some more crypts  also you could trim your current stems in half and replant them.


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## Drouthie (20 Apr 2011)

Here's a cleaning tip:
Use a razor on the glass (unless its acrylic), it's so much easier than scrubbing and it'll get the GSA off easily. Its strangely satisfying scraping it all off! I break the safety plastic of cheap orange bic razors although plain blades are better for corners.


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## mark4785 (22 Apr 2011)

> Also In the picture the Koralia on the left seems to be flowing toward the other end of the tank,



The left koralia is switched off, I just haven't detatched it from the glass.



> I would also do my best to hide the cables ect, your sparky mate might give you some cable ties to use with the sticky back pads that you can pull the cable tie through and stick inside your hood.



I too am doing my best to keep the wires nice and tidy but the suckers do not suck. Since I can't use blu-tak or cellotape in there I've kinda given up. I'm not sure how practical your suggestion is since part of the hood is inaccessible so I wouldn't be able to thread any wires through it.



> Sometime if I notice some furry algae on my plants ill gently rub the leave with my hands or pick it of with tweezers.



Is there any way of stopping this algae from forming as it is getting on my nerves haha.




> Here's a cleaning tip:
> Use a razor on the glass (unless its acrylic), it's so much easier than scrubbing and it'll get the GSA off easily. Its strangely satisfying scraping it all off! I break the safety plastic of cheap orange bic razors although plain blades are better for corners.



I too find it quite satisfying but I do go through phases which involve being lazy about cleaning it due to probably being shattered at the end of a college day. I'm finding that the toothbrush is a good cleaning tool but I will take into consideration your suggestion  

One thing I ought to point out is the fact that a very small 1cm by 1cm patch of what looks to be like cyanobacteria has appeared in my substrate. I know this can form in response to 'dirty substrate' but how am I supposed to clean the substrate when doing so releases ammonia which the German Blue Ram responds to straight away? I've responded to the cyano by dosing a little more nitrate on a micro-nutrient dosing day, presuming it's a nitrate deficiency rather than dirty substrate causing it to form.


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## mark4785 (22 Apr 2011)

Will provide some pictures of the aquarium tomorrow as the Limnophila and Bacopa is growing very quickly. There are no major algae issues a part from a small amount of what looks like cyanobacteria and white tuffs/hairs growing on some plants.


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## nayr88 (22 Apr 2011)

Good to hear mark, 

Look forward to the pictures, has you frogbit arrived from ebay?


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## mark4785 (22 Apr 2011)

> Look forward to the pictures, has you frogbit arrived from ebay?



Yes it has but the seller sent 20 pieces instead of 40 which was the amount I ordered. He's sending an extra 40 as an apology.

Here are the pictures, the algae seems to be taking hold on some of the plants:

1. Hair algae growing on bog wood.






2. Dark algae growing on lower part of Bacopa; discoloured algae.






3. Algae attacking the whole of this plant.






4. Unidentifiable Algae :?: 






5. Algae overwhelming another plant.






I'm obviously not too pleased with the algae and would definitely like to know how to stop it from growing so quickly.

Oh, and on the bright side I believe my female German Blue Ram will have some fry very shortly!






Edit:

Also, another issue I have is with my new Aqua essentials' branded drop-checker. The bromo blue within inside seems to be 90% transparent! is there a way of stopping this from happening? See pic below:


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## spyder (22 Apr 2011)

That shot with the spawn is nice to see and a good sign.   

I'm suffering the same kind of algae on some creeping jenny stems along with some anubias. I'm tweaking flow to see if it helps so still following this thread to see how yours is dealt with. I'm trimming them and removing infected leaves and replanting the tips.

Hope the pros chip in soon.


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## nayr88 (23 Apr 2011)

spyder said:
			
		

> Hope the pros chip in soon.



mate thing is everyone has including sir ceg,

so how much or what has been advised have you done??
cheers


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## CeeJay (23 Apr 2011)

Hi mark4785

Still looks like a CO2 issue to me, not getting sufficient amounts to the bottom of the tank.
On a previous set up of mine, I found that slow growing plants seemed to be affected like yours (Anubias in my case), so I moved them to a shadier part of the tank, and after removing infected leaves, that solved my problem in that case.
As your plants are in a fully lit position, your last option is to lower the light.

One of the'unidentifiable algae' in pic 4 looks like GSA to me. It's also in the pic of that lovely looking Ram. Upping the PO4 will sort that out.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> Also, another issue I have is with my new Aqua essentials' branded drop-checker. The bromo blue within inside seems to be 90% transparent! is there a way of stopping this from happening? See pic below:


When I used to use glass drop checkers, I used to paint the back of them with Tippex which made it easier to see the colour. It used to peel off after a time but I just repainted it as and when required.


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## mark4785 (1 May 2011)

CeeJay said:
			
		

> Hi mark4785
> 
> Still looks like a CO2 issue to me, not getting sufficient amounts to the bottom of the tank.
> On a previous set up of mine, I found that slow growing plants seemed to be affected like yours (Anubias in my case), so I moved them to a shadier part of the tank, and after removing infected leaves, that solved my problem in that case.
> ...



I've now increased my PO4 dosage level (from 10ppm to 15ppm; 10ppm when added to my 120LT tank equates to 2ppm of phosphate) and it would appear that there's no change in the amount of GSA (green string algae?) growing. It attacks the anubias and some other slow-growers like you've mentioned already effectively killing them.

This problem still is ongoing despite lowering the light level by introducing around 40 floating Amazon frogbit has previously suggested. 

So it looks to me like increasing PO4 and creating more shade doesn't appear to be one of the causes of the algae problem, or am I wrong?

As for c02 distribution, my new drop-checker is indicating a yellow colour. My old drop-checker by Dennerle never went yellow so I'm kinda starting to question how useful DC's are if there are variations like this that occur. I'm moving my new DC around the aquarium to ascertain what the c02 levels are like; so far it appears the right handside of the tank has over 30ppm of c02 (hence the yellow colour). Can too much c02 induce algae?

One other thing that has developed recently is a black algae (maybe black beard algae?). Odd bits of it appear in the sand and wrap around it and a mass of small bits of it have appeared on the back pane of glass ever since my Limnophila sessiflora has become dense. I know that getting c02 to these areas would stop it from growing but there's only so many areas powerheads can reach right?  :?


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## Johno2090 (1 May 2011)

From your last post about ordering the plants it can't be more than 10 days since you introduced the Frogbit or increased the dosing of PO4. Aquariums require patience and stabilizability things don't and won't get better overnight keep doing everything like your supposed to, Keep on top of water changes and make sure the dosing regime is good and it will sort itself out! Just give it time.

And also listen to the advice given freely! Its worth more than you can imagine these guys have been messing up and growing algae way before you or I decided to have a go!


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## CeeJay (2 May 2011)

Hi all


			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> I've now increased my PO4 dosage level (from 10ppm to 15ppm; 10ppm when added to my 120LT tank equates to 2ppm of phosphate) and it would appear that there's no change in the amount of GSA (green string algae?) growing.


We seem to be at cross purposes here. GSA is Green Spot Algae. The stuff on your glass in pic 4 you posted earlier.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> So it looks to me like increasing PO4 and creating more shade doesn't appear to be one of the causes of the algae problem, or am I wrong?


Any 'string' or hair algae is usually CO2 related.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> I'm moving my new DC around the aquarium to ascertain what the c02 levels are like; so far it appears the right handside of the tank has over 30ppm of c02 (hence the yellow colour).


This is good, if your fish can handle it.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> Can too much c02 induce algae?


No. 100%.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> One other thing that has developed recently is a black algae (maybe black beard algae?).


Now this is definitely CO2 related and caused by fluctuating CO2. 



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> This problem still is ongoing despite lowering the light level by introducing around 40 floating Amazon frogbit has previously suggested.


Now these are definitely steps in the right direction. The frogbit will multiply soon to give you even more shade. Then you can remove some every now and again to keep the light levels lower so as not to be problematic.
Your best bet now will be to remove as much algae as you can manually, and keep up with the water changes. It appears you are doing all the right things, so don't lose heart at this stage.



			
				Johno2090 said:
			
		

> these guys have been messing up and growing algae way before you or I decided to have a go!


I know I was  ,  but as long as we learn from our mistakes, all is good  

Stick with it, as the rewards are worth it in the end.


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## mark4785 (2 May 2011)

> Your best bet now will be to remove as much algae as you can manually, and keep up with the water changes



Thanks for the response.

I think I remember someone saying more than one W/C per week causes more harm than good since it removes some of the macro-nutrients and c02 which are the things that are essential to the plants. I try to remove as much algae as possible every day; I'm most untaggling a whitish thread algae from the stems as well as chopping leaves off that are completely covered in green hair/string algae.

I only do one 50% W/C on a monday at the end of the EI-dosing cycle. Should I be doing more W/C's?

Also, I recall someone mentioning that inline diffusers are better at diffusing c02. Is it possible to get one of those working in harmony with one of my internal filters as they seem to be designed for externals?

After lowering the light using the Frogbit, I've noticed my Limnophilla plants are growing more stringy and developing more side shoots. I don't really want to get rid of my Limnophilla because it's my favourite plant. Either the Frogbit or Limnophilla needs to be removed?


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## CeeJay (2 May 2011)

Hi mark4785


			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> I think I remember someone saying more than one W/C per week causes more harm than good since it removes some of the macro-nutrients and C02 which are the things that are essential to the plants.


The water change is your best friend when it comes to battling algae. The more the merrier. I'm not quite as mad as Clive yet, with fish flapping around on the substrate  ,  but I now think nothing of doing 80% water changes every week. I wanna keep my tank clean   .
The usual 50% water change is usually done at the start of the EI cycle, not at the end. You do your water change, then dose. Then on the 2 days you don't dose, the plants will use some of the excess ferts that were fed during the previous 5 days until the next water change. 
I tend to do my water changes before lights on, and on rare occassions, after lights out, so as not to affect the CO2 cycle.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> Also, I recall someone mentioning that inline diffusers are better at diffusing c02. Is it possible to get one of those working in harmony with one of my internal filters as they seem to be designed for externals?


The in-lines tend to be designed only for external filters.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> After lowering the light using the Frogbit, I've noticed my Limnophilla plants are growing more stringy and developing more side shoots. I don't really want to get rid of my Limnophilla because it's my favourite plant. Either the Frogbit or Limnophilla needs to be removed?


I have Limnophilla growing in a low light (1wpg), no CO2 tank, and that is growing fine. Slow but fine.
Your plants will now be adapting to their new conditions, so you may have to give it some time, usually some 2-3 weeks before the plants fully adapt.


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## mark4785 (2 May 2011)

> The water change is your best friend when it comes to battling algae. The more the merrier.



Ok, so when would you suggest for me to do an additional W/C? I say I do a 50% W/C at the end of the EI cycle because Monday's the last day of the EI cycle, but you're right in saying Monday could be interpreted as the beginning of a new cycle as well.   



> Then on the 2 days you don't dose, the plants will use some of the excess ferts that were fed during the previous 5 days until the next water change.



I dose on Monday (Macro with 50% W/C), Tuesday (Micro), Wednesday (Macro), Thursday (Micro), Friday (Macro) and Saturday (Micro). So there's only one day (Sunday) where nothing is dosed.


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## CeeJay (3 May 2011)

Hi mark4785



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> Ok, so when would you suggest for me to do an additional W/C?


I would stick an additional one in around Thursday, roughly in the middle.



			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> I dose on Monday (Macro with 50% W/C), Tuesday (Micro), Wednesday (Macro), Thursday (Micro), Friday (Macro) and Saturday (Micro). So there's only one day (Sunday) where nothing is dosed.


I used to dose Macros on days 1, 3 & 5 and Trace on days 2 & 4. Nothing on day 6 & 7. No harm having an extra bit of Trace floating around


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## Morgan Freeman (18 May 2011)

Any news on the tank Mark?


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## mark4785 (27 May 2011)

Hi,

I've been quite busy with college work lately so I haven't had chance to contribute to this thread so much.

I have, as suggested in this thread, purchased lots of Amazon frogbit in order to lower the light levels. The result is that I have no form of hair/string algae growing on and killing plant leaves.

The only issue I have at the moment is black beard algae growing on the edges of leaves and on the back pane of glass. In response to this, I'm dosing 6ml of Easycarbo and I've slightly upped the rate of c02 diffusion, although I'm not confident this will be enough. I'm thinking the BBA may be the result of a circulation issue but this is something that I don't know how to rectify in the tank environment I've got. For instance, I have a reliable c02 diffuser, 2 powerheads are circulating the c02 and nutrients; what more can I do to further enhance circulation?

Another issue I have is with the limnophila sessiflora plant which is growing more stringy. It's not losing it's colour or dieing so hopefully I can continue to keep it in the low light environment.

Pictures of Black Beard Algae (BBA):











General aquarium picture:


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## nayr88 (28 May 2011)

Hello mark,

Looks loads better, and the huge amount of frogbit looks really good, would be cool to have a huge group of nano fish in there they'd love it. 

The BBA can be a relentless mother !! I trim any leaves of as soon as I notice them. I got it on an area my outlet was pointing directly at and with the co2 being pumped through the filter I didn't understand it, that's was for sure where the flow was strongest and co2 enriched and it the leaves where getting coverd in the BBA. I had a little move around and dosed some liquid carbon and it went....


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## spyder (28 May 2011)

I've been battling this algae too in my low tech nano. I also had plenty of frogbit in there, shrimp love it. 

Tweaked flow and got my Easycarbo in stock. 1 week later it's a reddy orangey colour. I remove badly infected leaves and algae at water changes. Currently running 7hr photopriod 4pm-11pm.

Your tank is looking a lot healthier. You can trim those stems at the back and replant the trinnmings.


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## mark4785 (28 May 2011)

spyder said:
			
		

> I've been battling this algae too in my low tech nano. I also had plenty of frogbit in there, shrimp love it.
> 
> Tweaked flow and got my Easycarbo in stock. 1 week later it's a reddy orangey colour. I remove badly infected leaves and algae at water changes. Currently running 7hr photopriod 4pm-11pm.
> 
> Your tank is looking a lot healthier. You can trim those stems at the back and replant the trinnmings.



Thanks for your suggestions.

My photoperiod lasts between 5pm and 11pm so there's only 6 hours of light. I always thought algae was associated with photoperiods over 8 hours.

I do keep trimming the Limnophila stems, but seeing as it's a plant that thrives in high light, the recent changes I've made which lower the light levels is causing it to grow very thin stems. Consequently, I'm not wanting to keep the cuttings for planting; instead I'm looking for other plants which have larger leaves and which grow well in a variety of light intensities.



			
				nayr88 said:
			
		

> Hello mark,
> 
> Looks loads better, and the huge amount of frogbit looks really good, would be cool to have a huge group of nano fish in there they'd love it.
> 
> The BBA can be a relentless mother !! I trim any leaves of as soon as I notice them. I got it on an area my outlet was pointing directly at and with the co2 being pumped through the filter I didn't understand it, that's was for sure where the flow was strongest and co2 enriched and it the leaves where getting coverd in the BBA. I had a little move around and dosed some liquid carbon and it went....



Hi Nayr88,

I guess I'll just position the powerheads somewhere else in the aquarium until I find that it's distributing the c02 and nutrients properly. My HC that I've planted typically dies fast from c02/nutrient issues so I'm going to keep a close eye on how it develops.

I agree that the Frogbit looks good, however, I'm having to throw lot's of clumps away since the foilage expands really quickly. The root system also grows very quick and can sometimes get tangled on the Limnophilla. Sadly, I found that the frogbit doesn't grow too well in my outdoor pond; my orfe and koi have took to eating it, and when this doesn't happen, the chlorophyl starts to look as though it's on it's way out.


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## nayr88 (29 May 2011)

Could always chuck it on here for donation or postage  

Doing well mate keep it up.


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## mark4785 (31 May 2011)

nayr88 said:
			
		

> Could always chuck it on here for donation or postage
> 
> Doing well mate keep it up.



I was thinking of selling it on eBay for a small fee. I have to throw 10-20 pieces away every 3-4 days. 


Unfortunately, another issue has cropped up in the aquarium, namely, holes in the leaves of this plant: http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.p ... ts_id=4269

Here are some pictures I've taken of the holes, appearing on two separate leaves:

1. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




2. 
	

	
	
		
		



		
		
	


	




The plant is growing very well, I've noticed that two new leaves that are a red colour have popped up in a short space of time so I know the plant isn't dieing; thats why I'm puzzled by these holes that are appearing.

Any ideas what could be causing the holes? Hopefully my Otto's aren't capable of creating them.


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## mark4785 (11 Jun 2011)

Any ideas?


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