# Regulators?



## JenCliBee (10 Feb 2011)

Hi all, sorry if this isn't in the correct place... 

Just a question regarding regulators.

Do you really need to have a 2 gauge reg?, if your using a needle valve anyways what other purpose would the second gauge give other than working pressure?... which is then regulated through the needle valve anyways making that working pressure gauge redundant i presume?.... the needle valve reduces that working pressure so what would be the purpose of the second gauge?

The only reason i ask is that when ever somebody shows there co2 kit, they show a 2 gauge reg, is this just a personal pref to everybody or do they actually think they really need that second gauge?.

Just a little confused to know why people do opt for the 2 gauge rather than the single gauge that just reads bottle pressure?, surely this is far more important than needing the second one?


Why do people pay so much for dual gauge when single gauge can be brought for a quarter of the price?.

Sorry for all the questions lol, ive used both in the past and have brought  2 gauge one's but for no real reason other than everybody else has one lol   .

All input is appreciated 

Thanks


----------



## George Farmer (10 Feb 2011)

In my experience of CO2 regs  the better ones do have the working pressure gauge, but more importantly, a working pressure adjustment valve, as well as the needle valve.

The working pressure adjustment allows you to set the working pressure.  I always set mine to 1 Bar.

Without working pressure adjustment i.e. just relying on the needle valve, the output will be more likely to fluctuate, thus giving you varying CO2 levels.

This is especially common in extremes of ambient temperature or when the CO2 cylinder is almost empty.

I really do believe it's worth buying a good quality CO2 reg with working pressure adjustment.  Beware that some regs will have a working pressure gauge (dual gauge), but no manual adjustment.

If you can't afford one then, of course, buy a reg without manual working pressure adjustment, but just watch out for the issues described above.

FYI I bought my Dennerle Classic Professional reg back in 2004, and I'm still using right now with no issues whatsoever... Superb piece of kit.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## JenCliBee (10 Feb 2011)

Hi george and thanks for the reply 




			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> In my experience of CO2 regs  the better ones do have the working pressure gauge, but more importantly, a working pressure adjustment valve, as well as the needle valve.
> 
> The working pressure adjustment allows you to set the working pressure.  I always set mine to 1 Bar.
> 
> ...



To a certain extent yes and thankyou... please don't think im trying to contradict in anyways, im just trying to figure out how they actually work and why they work..hence all the questions .

The thing that made me originally think about the single gauges was that a few months back i saw a 2 gauge reg and a single gauge reg.... the single gauge obviously didn't have a working pressure adjuster but nor did the 2 gauge one... however both stated they had a set working pressure of 1.5 bar?... well with everything ive read, most people have the working pressure set at around 1-2 bar anyways. So was just wondering if these one's i had seen had a preset working pressure  that low, wouldn't all reg's that didn't have an adjuster be also preset at these level of bar?

Hope that all made sense lol.


----------



## ghostsword (10 Feb 2011)

Hi have a dupla regulator and it is a fantastic piece of kit.

The first knob, where it is written Dupla regulates the working pressure. 

The smaller one, right below, is the needle valve.


----------



## mdhardy01 (10 Feb 2011)

I've got the dupla reg too (thanks Luis ) and have to agree with ghostword fantastic piece of kit not cheap but worth every penny
Matt


----------



## George Farmer (11 Feb 2011)

Hi JenCliBee

To be perfectly honest I'm not sure exactly how the single gauge regs work with their preset working pressures.  All I do know is that in regs that have a preset working pressure, and seperate working pressure gauge - the working pressure fluctuates.  In one reg it went from 1 to 3.5 Bar, so you can imagine the difference in CO2 output.


----------



## JenCliBee (11 Feb 2011)

> Hi have a dupla regulator and it is a fantastic piece of kit.
> 
> The first knob, where it is written Dupla regulates the working pressure.
> 
> The smaller one, right below, is the needle valve.






> I've got the dupla reg too (thanks Luis ) and have to agree with ghostword fantastic piece of kit not cheap but worth every penny
> Matt



Thanks guys for the recommendations, will have a look around to see what i can get 




> Hi JenCliBee
> 
> To be perfectly honest I'm not sure exactly how the single gauge regs work with their preset working pressures. All I do know is that in regs that have a preset working pressure, and seperate working pressure gauge - the working pressure fluctuates. In one reg it went from 1 to 3.5 Bar, so you can imagine the difference in CO2 output.



Hi George.

I see where your coming from with the working pressure adjuster not there and the possibilities of fluctuating, but.... if the needle valve is there, would it matter not how much it fluctuates?.... or would the needle valve be set to the working pressure and if the working pressure changed it would not be accurate through the NV?..IE.... the extra pressure would force more co2 out.. or .... less pressure it would reduce the co2 coming out?

I thought if a needle valve was open to a certain limit, it would only allow that limit through no matter how much pressure/fluctuation there was behind it?.. basically like a stopper or limiter. (hope that made sense).

Example... if you open a water tap slightly you would get a trickle... if the pressure behind the tap increased.. because the tap is only open so much it would still only allow that same trickle of water out?.

I'm now a little confused on accuracy of needle valves now lol. 

Thanks again for your input and sorry for all the questions lol, just trying to figure exactly how the whole thing works and why it is so important having this particular part over the next.

Thanks


----------



## Garuf (12 Feb 2011)

Save your money and don't buy the dupla reg, get the lunapet regulators from germany via ebay, I've had mine since entering the hobby something like 6 years ago and I've not once had an issue. 
From reading some german forums it seems dupla's quality is often brought into question especially with regards to hardware.


----------



## JenCliBee (12 Feb 2011)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Save your money and don't buy the dupla reg, get the lunapet regulators from germany via ebay, I've had mine since entering the hobby something like 6 years ago and I've not once had an issue.
> From reading some german forums it seems dupla's quality is often brought into question especially with regards to hardware.




Ah rite, thanks for that mate.


I actually have been looking at the lunapet full kits, i want the 500g bottle for convenience and size, so it is ideal and the set is at a great price.... my nephew used to fill his 2kg bottle up for £2.50 so it running out and re-filling isn't an issue lol... will also have another 500g bottle to swap while the other is been filled.

The initial questions were really out of curiosity than a way of choosing which i would go for... still not really got any conclusive reasons why one is better than the other but...

Thanks for the info on the dupla's mate


----------



## sanj (12 Feb 2011)

After all these years I feel a bit dumb now. I have old JBL regulars and a couple of TMC ones both have duel gauges with one for working pressure, but I did not know that could be regulated. Or can they? The TMC one has a nut in the same place as on the dupla one, but i dont remember any instructions on adjusting it.

It is  currently around 1 bar on the TMC and 1.5 on the JBL. Maybe I need to keep a closer eye on them, i have not noticed much of a fluctuation in pressure before though.


----------



## mdhardy01 (12 Feb 2011)

Gareth
I read up on the dupla before I bought it and a lot of the problems were on older equipment
I also have a set of old jbl regs and a set of lunapet regs and I think that the dupla regs that I have bought are of a far superior quality to either of the other two, but then that is just my opinion
I do agree with the op that the lunapet sets are good value for money but I would be more inclined to get the hardwhare but go for a 2kg fe if the op has room for it , I found that 500g bottles don't last that long
Matt


----------



## JenCliBee (13 Feb 2011)

*Re:*



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> Gareth
> I read up on the dupla before I bought it and a lot of the problems were on older equipment
> I also have a set of old jbl regs and a set of lunapet regs and I think that the dupla regs that I have bought are of a far superior quality to either of the other two, but then that is just my opinion
> I do agree with the op that the lunapet sets are good value for money but I would be more inclined to get the hardwhare but go for a 2kg fe if the op has room for it , I found that 500g bottles don't last that long
> Matt




It would probably be a room issue more than anything and even though an FE is probably just as safe (i have used them in the past), i prefer the lunapet bottles due to me not having to keep the bottle open by tapeing the handle things together lol... just need to turn the tap on the lunapet ones.... lunapet do the packages with the 2kg bottle aswell so if space permits i would probably opt for that one instead.


Thanks all for the info..... anybody have any thought's on the origianl question though?


----------



## mdhardy01 (13 Feb 2011)

I would go for a two gauge just so that when the bottle starts to empty the output pressure does rise therefore you can then regulate your needle valve accordingly ( more pressure = more bubbles) 
Matt


----------



## JenCliBee (14 Feb 2011)

*Re:*



			
				mdhardy01 said:
			
		

> I would go for a two gauge just so that when the bottle starts to empty the output pressure does rise therefore you can then regulate your needle valve accordingly ( more pressure = more bubbles)
> Matt




Hi and thanks for the reply.... I'm still having difficulty seeing how the pressure behind the needle valve changing would affect the bubble rate coming out?.... isn't that the whole idea of a needle valve... to only allow the amount of bubble that it has been preset by you the setter?.... making the pressure behind the NV irrelevant.  if the pressure rose, or decreased the needle would still be set at a particular bubble rate... if the pressure rose, the pressure would just be increase behind the NV because the NV setting hasn't been change ..ie still set for the same rate of bubbles no matter the pressure increase behind.

If the NV couldn't hold the possible increased pressure back then what would be the point of a an NV in the first place?... wouldn't it make it unreliable at any point of it being there?... i thought the whole idea of the addition of a NV was to allow more precise setting of the bubble rate/ co2 injected?.


----------



## Themuleous (14 Feb 2011)

*Re: Re:*



			
				JenCliBee said:
			
		

> Hi and thanks for the reply.... I'm still having difficulty seeing how the pressure behind the needle valve changing would affect the bubble rate coming out?.... isn't that the whole idea of a needle valve... to only allow the amount of bubble that it has been preset by you the setter?.... making the pressure behind the NV irrelevant.  if the pressure rose, or decreased the needle would still be set at a particular bubble rate... if the pressure rose, the pressure would just be increase behind the NV because the NV setting hasn't been change ..ie still set for the same rate of bubbles no matter the pressure increase behind.



Hiya,

Just thought I would add that, I don't understand this either, but I've seen it happen.  As the cylinder empties so the pressure goes up and so does the bubble rate.

Sam


----------



## Radik (15 Feb 2011)

Not expert on this but to have nonstop constant flow you will need two stage Regulator (do not confuse with two gauge). We usually use one stage regulator so yes as bottle is running out, flow is changing on one stage regulator. Two stage regulators are very expensive and you can Google how they work


----------



## Coiln3107 (18 Feb 2011)

Hi, following on from Radik as he states the only way to get stable pressure to the last puff from the FE or bottle is to use a twin stage reg, not as he says to be confused with a twin gauge single stage reg. A bit on how they work is here:

TWO STAGE regulators reduce the source pressure down to the desired delivery pressure in two steps. Each stage consists of a spring, diaphragm, and control valve. The first stage reduces the inlet pressure to about three times the maximum working pressure. The final pressure reduction occurs in the second stage. The advantage of a dual stage regulator is its ability to deliver a constant pressure, even with a decrease in inlet pressure. For example, as a cylinder of gas is depleted, the cylinder pressure drops. Under these conditions, single stage regulators exhibit a “decaying inlet characteristic”; where the delivery pressure increases as a result of the decrease in inlet pressure. In a two stage regulator, the second stage compensates for this increase, providing a constant delivery pressure regardless of inlet pressure conditions. The dual stage regulator is recommended for applications where a continuous supply of gas is required; such as the gas supplied to analytical instruments where constant delivery pressure is critical.

SINGLE STAGE regulators perform the same function as the two stage regulator using a single step reduction of source to outlet pressure. For this reason, the outlet pressure cannot be as accurately controlled as the source pressure decays. We highly recommend single stage regulators only be used in circumstances where the operator can monitor and adjust the regulator as needed or where the regulator is supplied a nearly constant source pressure.

Somewhere else in this thread there is reference to why a needle valve diffirentiates the bubble count as the pressure changes on a single stage reg, simply because as the bottle runs out the pressure increases. 
Turn on your garden hose at half way and using a gun on the end (crude needle valve) how far does the water go? Turn up the pressure on the tap, it now goes further without touching the gun setting. Increase in supply pressure increase in resultant outflow.
A needle valve is only a flow control device that will control what it is given as a supply, increase the supply and increase the output, moral of the story buy the best reg you can afford and then you have little to worry about,
regards Colin.


----------



## mjbarnard (22 Feb 2011)

It is possible to buy dual stage regulators in the UK. I have recently purchased one. They vary from around £60 for an industrial model, to around £150 for a scientific grade one.


----------

