# Plants turning black



## D.Bezinski (12 Dec 2021)

Hi All, 

I am new to the hobby and need help identifying the type of algae I am dealing with. Here is some more information about my tank:

*1. Size of tank in litres -* 200l
*2. Age of the set - up -* 10 months
*3. Filtration -* Oase BioMaster 600. Using the original Oase filter media + 1L Seachem Matrix + 250ml Seachem Purigen
*4. Lighting and duration* - SOLIKU 90cm 48W Full spectrum LED light., 6500K. Sunrise 13:00-15:00, 100% 15:00-19:00, Sunset 19:00-21:00
*5. Substrate - *Fluval Stratum*
6. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing - *Dosing CO2*
7. Fertilizers used + Ratios - *I've tried different fertilizers and I've always had this issue (shown in the pictures) with the plants. I used TNC Complete, API Leaf Zone, Tropica Premium, Tropica Specialised. I was dosing 5ml API Daily then i switched to Tropica Premium (2 pumps daily) with no result. The I've decided to try Tropica Specialised (2 pumps daily) but I think the problem got worse. I also tried dosing daily API Leaf zone combined with Tropica Premium. Currently I am dosing just Tropica premium (1 pump) every other day.
*8. Water change regime and type - *Water change 40% weekly using tap water. Tried 40% twice per week. Here are some numbers
Tank water before water change:
Ph - 7.6 - 7.8
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40
Phosphate - 0.5-1
Kh - 10
Gh - 16

Tap Water:
Ph - 7.6 - 7.8
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 40-50
Phosphate - 0.25 - 0.5
Kh - 10
Gh - 16
*9. Inhabitants - *16 Neon/Cardinal Tetras, 12 Rummy Nose tetras, 6 Otocinclus, 6 Siamese algae eater, 4 Corrys, 10 amano shrimps

Any help will be appreciated.
Thank you.


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## Konsa (12 Dec 2021)

Hi
Tell us more about your CO2 injection. 
What time it starts compared to your photoperiod, have you done Ph profile or dropchecker only(colour of it if so as the day goes)
Any particular reason for such long Sunrise and Sunset periods?
Regards Konstantin


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## D.Bezinski (12 Dec 2021)

Hi Konstantin,
I am injecting DIY CO2. Currently i am on 2 bubbles p/sec. The dropchecker is green (slightly blue-ish). Tried injecting more 3-4 bubles. Also, tried injecting less (1 bubble) but the dropchecker is staying blue. I forgot to mention that i am also adding Easy-life EasyCarbo. Started with 5ml daily, now 10ml daily. Turning CO2 on 2h before the lights go On and turning it off 30 min before the lights go off.

No reason for the long sunrise and sunset. For some reason i cant figure out how to change this setting on the light. My tank is Fluval Roma 200 and it came with a led light and the sunrise and the sunset was set to 30min. I thought i will try with more powerful light but that didn't help
Regards Dimitar


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## kayjo (12 Dec 2021)

You have very high nitrates in your tap water.  Not healthy even for human consumption.  

I notice that your nitrates actually drop or (stay the same) between water changes even though you are adding fertilizer.  I assume that is due to the Purigen.

You have ample nitrate in your tap water that you don't need to add more.  You may get by with the phosphate level too.  Have you tried a fert that does not contain nitrate or phosphate like APT Zero?


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## Konsa (12 Dec 2021)

Hi
before you jump on the what nutrient deficiencies/toxicity etc etc train it is clear that you do not have stable CO2 injection and with long Sunset and Sunrise(do now know what intensity those are may not meet plants minimum light compensation point so they are not doing any  photosynthesis/growing during that time )setting complimented with 4 h at 100% is where your troubles are.
Algae has much less light requirement than plants.
Post full front tank shot(video better) to get better idea about your setup.
Try to find how to sort your light settings so its 30min ramp up and down and 6 h of 50% photoperiod.
What is your drop checker solution?In tank difuser or atomizer for CO2(brand,)?
Regards Konstantin


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## D.Bezinski (12 Dec 2021)

kayjo said:


> You have very high nitrates in your tap water.  Not healthy even for human consumption.
> 
> I notice that your nitrates actually drop or (stay the same) between water changes even though you are adding fertilizer.  I assume that is due to the Purigen.
> 
> You have ample nitrate in your tap water that you don't need to add more.  You may get by with the phosphate level too.  Have you tried a fert that does not contain nitrate or phosphate like APT Zero?


Hi Kayjo, 
THank you. I was thinking to try TNC Lite next because it does not contain nitrate and phosphates
Regards Dimitar


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## Konsa (12 Dec 2021)

Hi
Stick to Tropica specialised  or whatever complete fertiliser you have (You need macro nutrients for plant growth)and see my earlier post.Change one thing at a time and give plants time to react(4 ish weeks) before making more changes.Your CO2 and light is the priority here
Regards Konstantin


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## Konsa (12 Dec 2021)

kayjo said:


> I notice that your nitrates actually drop or (stay the same) between water changes even though you are adding fertilizer.  I assume that is due to the Purigen.


Hi 
Purigen  has  impact on organic waste and will not touch any added Nitrates or other ferts.
Regards Konstantin


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## D.Bezinski (12 Dec 2021)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Stick to Tropica specialised  or whatever complete fertiliser you have (You need macro nutrients for plant growth)and see my earlier post.Change one thing at a time and give plants time to react(4 ish weeks) before making more changes.Your CO2 and light is the priority here
> Regards Konstantin


Hi Konstantin, 

Thank you for your reply. Please see the attached. I am using in tank diffuser.
Regards Dimitar


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## Konsa (12 Dec 2021)

Hi
I see your diffuser and drop checker are close to each other.You may not get accurate reading there.Move them so they are on opposite sides of the tank.
Maybe if you put the diffuser under the circulation power head so it sucks the bubbles it will help with spreading(dissolving) the CO2 better.
200l is not a small tank as far as CO2 is concerned  (3-4 bubles may be insufficient)and CO2 in large tanks is more challenging.
I see you have some green algae on some leaves too .
Im sure you can turn things arround.Sort your Lights and improve CO2 as a start.Then manual removal and good elbow grease.
Do not worry about ferts just dose complete fertilizer to cover them so you can focus on the important stuff CO2 stability, flow and distribution  and good lighting (I don't mean strong lighting  tho).You need the find the right balance between those in your system. 
Ferts do not cause algae even in excess. I dose my tank daily at nearly full EI and I don't even have CO2 on it so plenty of excess ferts with me 
Regards Konstantin


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## D.Bezinski (12 Dec 2021)

Thanks Konstantin.
I will make these changes and I will see how it goes  appreciate your help


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## dw1305 (12 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


kayjo said:


> notice that your nitrates actually drop or (stay the same) between water changes even though you are adding fertilizer. I assume that is due to the Purigen.


It is more likely to be the plants. Plants are very effective at reducing the levels of all <"forms of fixed nitrogen"> (N). 


Konsa said:


> Purigen has impact on organic waste and will not touch any added Nitrates or other ferts.


I also don't think Purigen will have any effect on nitrate (NO3-) ion levels, it removes compounds that are, at least, an <"order of magnitude larger than nitrate ions">.


Konsa said:


> Stick to Tropica specialised or whatever complete fertiliser you have (You need macro nutrients for plant growth)and see my earlier post.Change one thing at a time and give plants time to react(4 ish weeks) before making more changes.


I'd stay with a <"complete fertiliser mix">, you should be able to get <"nitrate levels from your water company">, they have an analytical lab and will supply accurate values. 

cheers Darrel


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## D.Bezinski (12 Dec 2021)

Thanks Darrel.

I managed to get a water quality report from my water supplier and the nitrates levels are 50mg/l. 
Should I try a fertilizer without nitrate, like Kayjo said?




Regards Dimitar


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## sparkyweasel (13 Dec 2021)

D.Bezinski said:


> nitrates levels are 50mg/l.


Not according to that report. 
19.77mg/l average, 27.6710 maximum, 3.35 minimum.
I would keep using complete fertiliser, nitrate won't cause you problems, lack of nitrate would.
Have a look at;  Nitrate toxicity
I think @Konsa is right, you need to sort your lights and CO2 out.


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## dw1305 (13 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


D.Bezinski said:


> and the nitrates levels are 50mg/l.


The reports are a bit confusing, but the 50 mg/L (50 ppm NO3) is the regulatory limit ("Prescribed Concentration or Value" - PCV) for tap water. The values you are interested in are the ones @sparkyweasel quotes:


sparkyweasel said:


> 19.77mg/l average, 27.6710 maximum, 3.35 minimum.


The minimum value is quite interesting, you either got tap water <"from a different source">,  or possibly nitrate levels got near the 50 ppm limit and you received a <"stripped supply">.


D.Bezinski said:


> Should I try a fertilizer without nitrate


Difficult to say, looking at your water report most of the time your tap water is supplying ~20 ppm NO3, but some of the time it is supplying less than 1/4 of that.  You could test your <"tap water for nitrate">, but there are issues with this, and simplest option is just to keep using a <"complete fertiliser mix"> (one including NO3). 

Because you are adding CO2 you need consistent nutrient levels. I'm not a CO2 user so can't really help with that bit.

cheers Darrel


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## D.Bezinski (13 Dec 2021)

Hi all,
Really appreciate your help guys. Thank you.

What about my water hardness? Should I worry about this?


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## dw1305 (13 Dec 2021)

Hi all,


D.Bezinski said:


> What about my water hardness? Should I worry about this?


No, not really.  The other bit of your water report should record the calcium and <"hardness value">.

If you live in the S.E. 2/3 of England you are likely to have hard, <"calcium (Ca) rich">, water, but with <"very little magnesium (Mg)"> in it.





Some plants <"grow better in hard water">, some won't grow, most <"commonly available plants"> are fine in either hard or <"soft water">. 

cheers Darrel


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## arcturus (13 Dec 2021)

D.Bezinski said:


> Hi all,
> Really appreciate your help guys. Thank you.
> 
> What about my water hardness? Should I worry about this?


You state that you have Kh = 10 and Gh =16. Btw, did you get these values from the water analysis report? These values are not an issue per se but they are another reason why you really need to control the CO2 injection and amount of light as a first step. Your CO2 injection rate already seems low for a 200 l tank. But with this level of water hardness acting as a pH buffer, you likely have CO2 related issues. As suggested above, move the diffusor below the power head, reduce the light period and the ramp up/down period, and slowly increase CO2 injection. Ideally, get a pH probe to profile the pH while adjusting the CO2 injection rate and keep a close eye on the livestock.


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## D.Bezinski (13 Dec 2021)

arcturus said:


> You state that you have Kh = 10 and Gh =16. Btw, did you get these values from the water analysis report? These values are not an issue per se but they are another reason why you really need to control the CO2 injection and amount of light as a first step. Your CO2 injection rate already seems low for a 200 l tank. But with this level of water hardness acting as a pH buffer, you likely have CO2 related issues. As suggested above, move the diffusor below the power head, reduce the light period and the ramp up/down period, and slowly increase CO2 injection. Ideally, get a pH probe to profile the pH while adjusting the CO2 injection rate and keep a close eye on the livestock.


Hi Arcturus,
These Kh and Gh values are from my test (API Test kit). About the diffuser, I moved it below the power head but the result is not what you expect  The bubbles are going behind the power head straight to the top. I have to stick the diffuser to the front glass in order to work. It doesn't look good but i will leave it for now just to test.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I will sort out my light settings tonight and i will increase the co2.


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## dw1305 (13 Dec 2021)

Hi all, 


arcturus said:


> You state that you have Kh = 10 and Gh =16. Btw, did you get these values from the water analysis report?





D.Bezinski said:


> These Kh and Gh values are from my test (API Test kit).


It is very likely that the actual dGH and dKH levels are the same, and probably somewhere near 16 dGH / 16 dKH. 

This is because both dGH and dKH originate from dissolved limestone (CaCO3) and it supplies 1 : 1 dGH : dKH. 

The 16 dGH is somewhere near the values you get for water that is fully saturated with Ca++ and 2HCO3- ions, via the <"carbonate ~ atmospheric CO2 equilibrium">.  Our water comes from a limestone aquifer and <"is about 17dGH / 17 dKH">. 

cheers Darrel


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## arcturus (13 Dec 2021)

D.Bezinski said:


> Hi Arcturus,
> These Kh and Gh values are from my test (API Test kit). About the diffuser, I moved it below the power head but the result is not what you expect  The bubbles are going behind the power head straight to the top. I have to stick the diffuser to the front glass in order to work. It doesn't look good but i will leave it for now just to test.


Yes... the water flow is very dependent on the design of the power head. The bottom line is that the actual movement and flow of water is rarely what one is expecting... otherwise it would be too easy to get good circulation


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## jaypeecee (13 Dec 2021)

D.Bezinski said:


> I am new to the hobby and need help identifying the type of algae I am dealing with...


Hi @D.Bezinski 

It looks very much like Black Beard Algae (Audouinella), usually abbreviated to 'BBA'. I've often found the following to be a useful starting point:









						Black beard algae (BBA) - Aquascaping Wiki
					

Red algae in the aquarium




					www.aquasabi.com
				




I also hope you find it useful.

JPC


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## MichaelJ (13 Dec 2021)

Hi @D.Bezinski   Black Beard Algae (BBA)... Looks like a classic CO2 issue to me. Is this DIY CO2 like a yeast based system? Those are prone to inconsistent delivery causing fluctuating CO2 levels.... a standing invitation to BBA.  Your best bet is to dial down the light intensity (not hours/photoperiod),  increase your water change frequency and/or % amount and improve your flow/circulation.  WRT water parameters, the things that sticks out is the low PO4 levels - I would bump that to 4-5 ppm.   I would supplement your Tropica Premium with some Phosphate (which your not getting with Premium)  and possibly Potassium (which is too low with Premium) and Mg if your in the parts of the UK where there are very little Mg in the water. To error on the safe side with NO3 you could supplement with Nitrogen (your also not getting any NO3 with Tropica Premium), say 12ppm/wk. which will bring you into the 15-40ppm range based on the tap reports 3-28ppm. range.

You can also spot treat the Anubias with Carbo, brushing it onto the leaves and let it dry for a couple of minutes - just make sure you don't get carbo into the rhizome or roots as that will kill the plant. Dosing Carbo to combat BBA seems to be a hit and miss...  You have to go all-in on all the above. BBA is _very_ persistent, so it may take a while before seeing improvements.

As for the hard water; personally I would aim for softer water for the livestock, not the plants (I don't see any plants there that require soft water), but its not essential.

Welcome to UKAPS 
Cheers,
Michael


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## D.Bezinski (14 Dec 2021)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @D.Bezinski
> 
> It looks very much like Black Beard Algae (Audouinella), usually abbreviated to 'BBA'. I've often found the following to be a useful starting point:
> 
> ...


Thank you JPC. I will have a look.



MichaelJ said:


> Hi @D.Bezinski   Black Beard Algae (BBA)... Looks like a classic CO2 issue to me. Is this DIY CO2 like a yeast based system? Those are prone to inconsistent delivery causing fluctuating CO2 levels.... a standing invitation to BBA.  Your best bet is to dial down the light intensity (not hours/photoperiod),  increase your water change frequency and/or % amount and improve your flow/circulation.  WRT water parameters, the things that sticks out is the low PO4 levels - I would bump that to 4-5 ppm.   I would supplement your Tropica Premium with some Phosphate (which your not getting with Premium)  and possibly Potassium (which is too low with Premium) and Mg if your in the parts of the UK where there are very little Mg in the water. To error on the safe side with NO3 you could supplement with Nitrogen (your also not getting any NO3 with Tropica Premium), say 12ppm/wk. which will bring you into the 15-40ppm range based on the tap reports 3-28ppm. range.
> 
> You can also spot treat the Anubias with Carbo, brushing it onto the leaves and let it dry for a couple of minutes - just make sure you don't get carbo into the rhizome or roots as that will kill the plant. Dosing Carbo to combat BBA seems to be a hit and miss...  You have to go all-in on all the above. BBA is _very_ persistent, so it may take a while before seeing improvements.
> 
> ...


Hi Michael,
Thanks for the advise  I already started with some changes and now i just have to wait and observe


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## erwin123 (14 Dec 2021)

I'm with MichaelJ when it comes to water changes. I do a 60% water change weekly

Apart from getting rid of dissolved waste, water changes also gives you an opportunity to vacuum your substrate to remove detritus, rotting leaf fragments that got trapped in the substrate, etc. 

My experience is that BBA often appears on slow growing plants. My Bucephelandra at the side of the tank next to the CO2 diffuser have small amounts of BBA which I have to treat. (some articles like in 2hr Aquarist mention a correlation between BBA and slowgrowing plants in the path of strong CO2 mist).


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## MichaelJ (14 Dec 2021)

erwin123 said:


> Apart from getting rid of dissolved waste, water changes also gives you an opportunity to vacuum your substrate to remove detritus, rotting leaf fragments that got trapped in the substrate, etc.


That one as well! In addition, I usually take the opportunity during WCs to trim plants as well (and get rid of duckweed  ) just makes the whole thing much easier.

Cheers,
Michael


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## D.Bezinski (14 Dec 2021)

Hi all, 

Big discussion  bottom line is:
I've moved the diffuser underneath the power head, increased the co2 bubbles and set the light to 60%. Also, i am dosing (using a bottle from a tropica fertilizer) 5 pumps Cabro and 3 pumps  Tropica Specialised daily. I hope i am going in the right direction.
About my inhabitants, i was thinking of adding more color (some ember tetras) but i want to sort out the algae issue first


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## MichaelJ (14 Dec 2021)

D.Bezinski said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Big discussion


Hi @D.Bezinski   You bet. That's what we love here...as long as its fruitful and civil 



D.Bezinski said:


> bottom line is:
> I've moved the diffuser underneath the power head, increased the co2 bubbles and set the light to 60%. Also, i am dosing (using a bottle from a tropica fertilizer) 5 pumps Cabro and 3 pumps  Tropica Specialised daily. I hope i am going in the right direction.


You might want to look into doing a pH Profile. I suggest posting in the CO2 section to ask for more details on that - including as much details about your CO2 setup and a full tank shot.



D.Bezinski said:


> About my inhabitants, i was thinking of adding more color (some ember tetras) but i want to sort out the algae issue first


Embers are lovely nano tetras - I have a small school myself. If alone, they have a tendency to be a bit shy, but they will get along well with your cardinals and rummy's.

Cheers,
Michael


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Photoperiod matters much less than light intensity. Light intensity regulates the plants immediate metabolic rate and need for immediate nutrients predominantly CO2. I do not inject CO2 so I run my lights at very low intensity levels, but for long hours (12 hours to be exact - consistent with the daylight around the equator where most our plants are from...) and I have zero algae to speak of.


Hi @MichaelJ 

That's _very_ interesting! @Christel is an advocate of mimicking nature with a 12 hour photoperiod and she knows a thing or two about cultivating aquatic plants. When you say "Light intensity regulates the plants immediate metabolic rate and need for immediate nutrients predominantly CO2", I think of light as the conductor of an orchestra. Excluding the composer for a moment, it's the conductor who dictates the pace of the music. OK, that may not be the best analogy so please don't cringe at the thought!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (14 Dec 2021)

D.Bezinski said:


> About my inhabitants, i was thinking of adding more color (some ember tetras) but i want to sort out the algae issue first


Hi @D.Bezinski 

Very wise. As the saying goes, "Patience is a virtue" and in aquatics, it speaks volumes.

JPC


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## erwin123 (15 Dec 2021)

Stan510 said:


> Its for sure counterintuitive that low tech asks for less water changes and high tech requires more work not less. 👨‍🎓 Always learning.



I guess that's why George Farmer and some others prefer the term "low energy" and "high energy".

Using a TDS meter, I find that the daily increase in TDS in my 'high energy' tank is greater than the increase in TDS in my 'low energy' tank, which might therefore support the need for high energy tanks to have more frequent water changes.


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## MichaelJ (15 Dec 2021)

Hi @jaypeecee,


jaypeecee said:


> Hi @MichaelJ
> 
> That's _very_ interesting! @Christel is an advocate of mimicking nature with a 12 hour photoperiod and she knows a thing or two about cultivating aquatic plants.


That's for sure and makes total sense.  Besides the photoperiod consideration, given our plants natural habitats around the equator and all that, I want to enjoy my tanks when I feel like it and not having to be on the clock for a limited _show time_...  The lights in my tanks ramps up just before noon and ramps down at midnight (the family room where the tanks sits is fairly dark during the day - in part to be able to enjoy the tanks). Sometimes during the weekend I overrule the timer and let it run for an additional hour or so.



jaypeecee said:


> When you say "Light intensity regulates the plants immediate metabolic rate and need for immediate nutrients predominantly CO2", I think of light as the conductor of an orchestra. Excluding the composer for a moment, it's the conductor who dictates the pace of the music. OK, that may not be the best analogy so please don't cringe at the thought!


I think that is a good analogy actually.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (15 Dec 2021)

Hi @erwin123 ,  


erwin123 said:


> I guess that's why George Farmer and some others prefer the term "low energy" and "high energy".


Yes, Higher energy equals higher overall plant metabolism and more waste creation.


erwin123 said:


> Using a TDS meter, I find that the daily increase in TDS in my 'high energy' tank is greater than the increase in TDS in my 'low energy' tank, which might therefore support the need for high energy tanks to have more frequent water changes.


That is essentially how I gauge if my weekly maintenance is up to par as well - if I start to see TDS _creep_ I know I might have to take some corrective actions such as upping my weekly WC%  It's really like an early warning - like taking the tanks blood pressure  

Cheers,
Michael


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## kayjo (15 Dec 2021)

MichaelJ said:


> Photoperiod matters much less than light intensity. Light intensity regulates the plants immediate metabolic rate and need for immediate nutrients predominantly CO2. I do not inject CO2 so I run my lights at very low intensity levels, but for long hours (12 hours to be exact - consistent with the daylight around the equator where most our plants are from...) and I have zero algae to speak of.


MichaelJ, I found this interesting.  You may as well.  Source is The Barr Report

For most aquatic plants, the LCP (minimum light level needed for survival) is somewhere around *10-50* µmol.m-2.s-1, the Km (half-saturation constant were growth rate is 50%) is somewhere around *100* µmol.m-2.s-1, and the LS (maximum usable light level) is somewhere around *600-700* µmol.m-2.s-1.

From the above data you can clearly see that for most aquatic plants the optimum (maximum usable) light level is around 600-700 µmol PAR, which is way too high to use in our tanks. The minimum light level at which plants begin to increase their biomass is around 10-50 µmol PAR which is the value usually recommended here (10-30 µmol PAR for undemanding low-light plants, and 50 µmol PAR for demanding high-light plants). This is the recommended minimum for them to grow. If you were to ensure them at least 50% growth rates, you should give them at least 100 µmol PAR. Also, don't forget that the light intensity decreases with the distance from the light source. So if you have 50 µmol PAR at the bottom of your tank, at the water surface you may have 200-300 µmol PAR. So while at the bottom you may have the minimum light level for plants to grow, at the surface they'll be bombarded by quite high light levels. So although it is true that for most aquatic plants the values around 600-700 µmol PAR would be best, under such a high light levels your algae will grow like mad. So in our tanks we have to find out some compromise for plants to grow well, but for algae to not have enough light to cause us problems. That's the reason why most wise people recommend to use no more than 80-100 µmol PAR at the bottom (at substrate level).


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## D.Bezinski (31 Jan 2022)

Hi All, 
Little update. Please see the pictures attached.  
Currently the light is set to 60% intensity, 30 min sunrise, 30 min sunset, total hours on - 8h. CO2 - 4 bubbles per second. I've changed the fertilizer to TNC Lite dosing daily 4ml. By doing this the nitrates are now 20ppm. I've tried increasing the phosphates by dosing easy life fosfo and i was keeping it between 1-2ppm. I don't know if this is too high or too low.
Do you have any other ideas about how to get rid of the green spot algae?
Thank you.


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