# BBA  I've tried everything



## AlanTh

I've been fighting a losing battle against BBA for nearly a year now.  I;m not overrun with it, but just can't get rid of the stuff

The tank is 8o ltrs.  2 foot long; 1 foot wide and 15 inches high.  The lighting is about four inches above the water surface.

I have pressurised CO2.  The drop checker never moves from green,  Co2 come on and hour before lights on  I have tried the lighting at 5, 6 and 7 hourly periods over the year.

The tank has a Fluval 104 external filter with spray bar.  To increase flow I have added a power head pump attached to another spray bar.  Both spray bars spraying across the top of the tank, and then being forced down the front glass.  I can't see flows being the problem.  All plants are moving about nicely
I dose daily EI doing.

I have tried doing spot dosing also with Easycarbo.

My lighting is two 24w T5 tubes.  As a last resort (tonight) I have removed one of the tubes.  This doesn't seem to have made an adverse affect the appearance of the tank.

I think I must have read everything about BBA, and tried everything.

Any suggestions please.  Will removing one tubes help matters?

Thanks


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## clonitza

Dose 2-3ml easy carbo daily in the morning, 50% water changes weekly. Don't touch the plants for 2-3 weeks then prune the affected leaves.
Spot dosing doesn't help much, it's usually done when you can't remove the hardscape.

Mike


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## AlanTh

Thanks for the reply Mike.

I take it then that using CO2 gas AND Easycarbo is ok?  I wasn't sure about that.


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## greenink

Do you do water changes during or just before lights on? That was my problem.


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## AlanTh

Ok so when I use EasyCarbo and the gas - do I put my other lighting tube back in?


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## Martin cape

Your better off putting other tube back in pal. Coz if you solve the BBA issue then put the tube back in, it'll come back. Better off trying to solve it when it's all in. Adjusting lighting time etc.


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## AlanTh

mikeappleby said:


> Do you do water changes during or just before lights on? That was my problem.


 
I do my water changes before lights on, and the CO2 comes on ...


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## greenink

That is definitely part of the problem. You get very variable CO2 when you water change. Only ever do water changes after lights out!


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## Martin cape

After lights out? Who can do that? My lights go off at 10 at night.


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## AlanTh

Well being the one asking the questions. and needing answers, it's certainly not for me to query replies.

My understanding was that it was important that the CO2 levels remained constant during the lighting period.

I try to do water changes in such a way that all ill done and dusted by the time the CO2 kicks in .... then come lights on - all hopefully will be fine.


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## sciencefiction

I do water changes on 4 tanks(50% water changes) with the lights on because I can't see a thing otherwise, in the middle of the light period for the most part, and I ever had BBA in one tank. There certainlly is some CO2 in my tap water because straight out the tap the Ph is 6.6 and after a while it goes up to 7.4. It causes excessive plant pearling, but then again, if that was a trigger on its own, I'd been covered everywhere by it.
I know many say water changes with lights on cause fluctuating CO2 levels, but from experience I don't think that is the main cause for BBA, but it's worth trying I suppose.


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## AlanTh

I'm appreciating all of these comments .....  thank you


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## Ady34

Hi Alan,
out of curiosity what plants do you have and how are they doing? also do you have fish or shrimp in the tank?


AlanTh said:


> I have pressurised CO2. The drop checker never moves from green,


when you say your drop checker never changes from green what exactly do you mean? never during the injection period or never at all? If it never changes id suspect something is wrong with your indicator solution and the guide it is giving you regards c02 levels could be way off and may help in explaining your stubborn bba issue. Once c02 has been off for several hours , eg overnight, your drop checker indicator should have changed colour from a nice lime green during the injection period/photoperiod to blue, or at least a dark green colour which indicates reduced levels of c02 after injection ceases due to off gassing. If it is never changing then something is wrong and you cannot rely on it for a guide, you could be vastly underestimating the concentration of c02 you have in the tank.
Your drop checker solution should be a lime green colour for lights on, in some set ups this may still not indicate high enough levels of c02 needed for your lighting intensity. Lighting drives the plants growth rates and consequent hunger for c02 and fertilisers. The higher the light intensity the more c02 and fertilisers are required to feed the accelerated growth rates. However some plants can grow with less c02 which mixes things up further as you may have a tank full of less demanding species which can tolerate lower c02 to light ratios and may be thriving alongside your bba  You have been running 48w lighting over 80l, which is 0.6 wpl, to give you a comparison i run 0.43 wpl over my tank, but my lighting is 13" above the water surface compared with your 4" so my lighting is much less intense (i have no bba). I would guess that your c02 may not be at high enough levels for your lighting or your distribution is at fault. Im unsure of your filter lph rating, or your powerhead lph rating, but 10x tank volume turnover per hour is recommended to try and allieviate distribution issues. You say you are running spray bars and that there is good movement to all plants so maybe this is ok and it is simply a c02 concentration issue. This can be fixed by adding more c02 (increasing injection, and or using liquid carbon products alongside) or by lowering lighting intensity by removing a bulb (as you have now done), or raising your lighting unit higher above the water surface, maybe even using some floating plant species to shade the tank.
Either way you need less light or more c02, or both to fix the problem....less light is the easiest way  it helps increase the margin for error for everything. Diagnosing what is going on with your drop checker would help further as you may simply not be adding enough c02 and you may be able to increase injection rates to fix the problem without adversely effecting any livestock you may have.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## AlanTh

Thanks Ady

All that I can say that is my checker NEVER goes blue.  It is always lime green or approaching yellow.


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## AlanTh

I will try increasing the CO2 gas and suppliment with the chemical


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## Ady34

AlanTh said:


> Thanks Ady
> 
> All that I can say that is my checker NEVER goes blue. It is always lime green or approaching yellow.


have you ever removed it completely from the aquarium and left it for a few hours.....if it doesnt go blue then, then there is definitely a problem with it.
Do you use a pre mixed indicator solution or a 4dkh water with a few drops of bromo blue solution? How often do you change it? You dont use tank water in it do you? sorry for the obvious questions, but sounds as if there is a problem with it.


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## Ady34

AlanTh said:


> I will try increasing the CO2 gas and suppliment with the chemical


do you have livestock in the tank?


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## AlanTh

I do have livestock in the tank

6 danios, 6 rumynose, 6 tetras

i will change the solution tomorrow with the brom blue stuff that i bought from our sponsor.	I have done that before but it makes no difference.


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## AlanTh

_t took a couple of mounths to find a diffusor that actually worked,  This one really does give out a cloud of mist - not a pile of bubbles._


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## ceg4048

Hello,
		48 watts of T5 is too much light for an 80L tank. You will likely need toxic levels of CO2 to keep it at bay. The rule about a green DC assumes that the lighting is not over the top. People always make the fatal mistake of assuming a green DC means that everything is OK no matter what. Light causes algae, and adding more light causes more algae.

Remove the BBA by hand, increase the frequency of as large and as frequent water changes as you can and if you do not have sensitive fish or plants, try a double or even treble daily overdose of Excel. When the BBA turns pink you will have eradicated it. Do NOT add the second bulb.

Cheers,


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## AlanTh

Thank you to everyone that replied.

This whole business has been a huge disappointment (so far).  I started out thinking that by injecting CO2 I would have no algae problems - how wrong I was.  I had visions of a jungle of a tank - that never happened.  Spent a bob or two also, I might add.

I'm whipping out that second tube.  As I said, the tank doesn't really look that different without it.  One tube is very bright on such a small tank.

I have tried removing the DC, and it does turn blue - so no problems there.

Anyway - once again - thank you all.


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## thelats1981

Hi Alan, fingers crossed for you. It's very deflating when you can't seem to find the 'cure' and everything you see online is pictures of incredibly lush green tanks! This is like watching the Champions League, getting up for a kick around and realising that you aren't Messi!

I've had the same issue, with 78W of T5 on a 180-190 ltr and had to remove a bulb. I was surprised by how bright the tank still appeared, and things are definitely improving. Another bonus is that the fauna are far happier in more subdued lighting. hope it all works out for you.


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## thelats1981

Hi Alan, fingers crossed for you. It's very deflating when you can't seem to find the 'cure' and everything you see online is pictures of incredibly lush green tanks! This is like watching the Champions League, getting up for a kick around and realising that you aren't Messi!

I've had the same issue, with 78W of T5 on a 180-190 ltr and had to remove a bulb. I was surprised by how bright the tank still appeared, and things are definitely improving. Another bonus is that the fauna are far happier in more subdued lighting. hope it all works out for you.


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## Manrock

Lighting is high, no doubt. You could change 1 bulb to a marine blue which will keep it bright but lower the amount of photosynthetic light available to the plants (and algae). Also, as regards the drop checker...sometimes mine seems to 'fix' to a certain colour and won't change. I have no idea why this happens (it shouldn't be possible chemically I believe) but I just change the solution in the DC and problem is solved.

I had a BBA problem a few years ago, tried everything but finally added a pair of SAE to my tank. All the BBA was gone in 2 days. I love these fish.

Alternatively, have you considered some shrimps or otto's for algae cleaning duties? Shrimps feast on the stuff and otto's keep flatter surfaces (big leaves, glass) clear.


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## ceg4048

Manrock said:


> You could change 1 bulb to a marine blue which will keep it bright but lower the amount of photosynthetic light available to the plants (and algae).


This is not true at all. If anything, blue light will increase the energy levels. Also, blue lights don't necessarily make things look brighter. If you want to lower PAR but maintain the illusion of brightness then a lower wattage light which emits in the green/yellow will achieve that objective.

Cheers,


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## viktorlantos

Not sure where the BBA exist. On plants, or on the bottom part of the tank on decors/plants etc?

If this is more on the bottom, then you should check your substrate if that's covered on a recommended height which is usually 4-5 cm.
Check the filter flow if this is too powerful and the flow disturb the bottom part you probably will get this algae.
In the tank lifecycle you will have more dirt in your tank and depend on the setup you may will not be able to clean it - lot of mosses etc. So better maintenance needed.
Do a maintenance also on your filter. Especially on the white pad, but better to clean the bucket too if it was cleaned a while ago.

Maybe your CO2 solution is not good, maybe it is and just the CO2 distribution lack.
The BBA exist closer to the Diffuser? Possible sometimes when more CO2 injected.

How is your pH level? Isn't that too low?
How is the water temp? These are important things for your filtration. - i know some may disagree.

Soft or hard water?
Light is also a key point, but there are zillions of tanks wich do not have any bba and runs with much more light.
So it is more about the current setup/balance/water parameters i guess.


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## viktorlantos

Also avoid overfeeding. And if you use extra iron ferts stop with that.

So many combinations and possible reason. If i had to fix it i would go over on all possible issues til the problem exist.


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## AlanTh

I removed one tube and have been doing water changes every two or three days.  Things have improved but still have BBA on the vallis.

Is vallis particularly prone to BBA?


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## ceg4048

You have to remove the BBA that is there. All plants are particularly prone to BBA because BBA is caused by poor CO2. You can use a small paint brush dipped in Excel and carefully paint the BBA without touching the leaves. Assuming you have fixed the CO2 the tufts should not recur.

Cheers,


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## frothhelmet

The best biological control is definitely ramshorn snails which eat BBA and breed in your tank to numbers which control the algae.


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## AlanTh

Hello everyone - I'm back 

I'm very pleased to say that the BBA has been gone now for quite a few months.

The thing is with this tricky subject of algae is that we do various things at the same time, to solve the problem, so that when the problem is solved - what exactly was it that we did that solved the problem?

In my case, I'm sure that taking out one of the T5 tubes was the main factor, along with increased water changes .... I also used Easycarbo for a few weeks. Whatever worked, I am just happy that it did.

Ok.

Now we move onto the green algae that I still have on the gravel. Everything is as it was before - lighting, water changes etc.

The green algae isn't a huge problem, but not an insignificant problem either ... It is stilting the plant growth I am sure.

Tonight, for the first time in months, I have noticed that most plants are pearling. I take that to be a good sign. I'm now wondering what has caused this change (assuming that what I have done is good).

What I have done in the last week is :-

Clean the external filter
Increase my ferts dose (this morning) from 15mls to 20mls


So, is the pearling due to the increased ferts, or cleaning the external filter? Or both?

Or have I asked an unanswerable question?


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## DunkirkPie

Hi Alan,

I'm really interested in this thread as I've been having similar problems to you.  I have an established tank with good flow, good lighting, EI dosing and pressurised CO2, but I have a lot of trouble with BBA on established plant leaves and hardscape and I don't know what I'm doing wrong!

Are you now running your tank on just one 18W T5 tube and still getting good plant growth?  This sounds really low compared to the oft-quoted 2 watts/gallon rule, so I was interested to read ceg4048 saying it was much too high.  I've got the standard Rio 125 set-up of 2x28W T5 tubes in a 125-litre tank, which I've always assumed to be adequate at best (and have considered upgrading).  If I could solve my algae problems simply by removing one of these bulbs, I'm not sure whether I would laugh or cry!

Simon.

Tank specifications - 81x36x50cm Rio 125 litres
Lighting - 2x28W T5, 6 hours/day
CO2 - Pressurised, drop-checker is always green (yellowy-green towards end of photoperiod)
Filtration - Rio internal filter with home-made spraybar and inline CO2 diffuser; 2x Koralia 1600 pumps on/off alternately every minute
Fertilisation routine - EI daily; 5ml EasyCarbo daily.
Water change - ~50% weekly.


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## bridgey_c

what do you have to lose by removing a bulb for a month or so? It could even bring a smile to your face  (lower algae levels and lower leccy bills!)

I have just one 30w T8 bulb over a low tech, rio 180 discus tank and the easy stem plants still grow a bit too rapidly for my liking!

little or no BBA algae on my anubias or crypt parva and the tank doesn't look dimly lit either.


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## DunkirkPie

I'll crank up the CO2 as high as I can (without distressing the fish) for a few weeks first.  If that doesn't work then I'll try taking a tube out.


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## tim

Hi dunkirkpie, your drop checker needs to be towards the lime green colour at the start of the photoperiod for optimum plant growth, also bba needs to be manually removed from the tank no amount of co2 will make it disappear IME trim all affected plants scrape and scrub hardscape and follow up with large water changes to remove all the bba you can, spot dosing the algae with a syringe with your filters/ power heads off for 10 mins can also kill it but it still needs manual removal.


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## DunkirkPie

Am I the only one who struggles to tell the difference between lime green, blue-green and just green?!  I might start keeping a lime by the tank for reference 

Yeah I give the tank a clean every month, scrubbing the internal background and trimming off all the affected leaves before doing the weekly 50% w/c.  I did this last weekend so there's not much BBA now, hopefully cranking up the CO2 will prevent it coming back.  My aponogeton crispus has had a lot of holes in its leaves lately too which I think might be due to a lack of CO2?


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## arhino

DunkirkPie said:


> I'll crank up the CO2 as high as I can (without distressing the fish) for a few weeks first. If that doesn't work then I'll try taking a tube out.


 Increasing/cranking up the amount of c02 your adding might not be the answer. My c02 diffuser is giving off pretty big bubbles when I crank it up however If I lower the amount of c02 to almost a trickle of bubbles from the diffuser,  I get pearling from some plants. So im thinking the way it actually gets dissolved in a tank is an important factor, just adding more c02 actually gives me less results. Thats whats occuring in my tank


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## DunkirkPie

Thanks for your input.  People seem to have very different experiences CO2.  Anyway I've cranked it up and the drop checker is greeny-yellow all the time now (fish seem fine).  I'm using an inline diffuser attached to a home-made spraybar and there are now lots of tiny bubbles in the water which there weren't before.  A bit early to draw any conclusions regarding algae or plant growth.

As a side note I've also finally realised the best way to spot dose Excel as an algicide - halfway through my weekly water change!  Can't believe it never occured to me before.  As a test I sprayed 5ml on my internal rock-effect background while it was above the water level the weekend before last, then left it ten minutes before refilling.  Ten days later and I've got an area the size of a fag packet which is completely clear of algae.  Can't wait to do the rest of it over the next few weeks!


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> You have to remove the BBA that is there. All plants are particularly prone to BBA because BBA is caused by poor CO2. You can use a small paint brush dipped in Excel and carefully paint the BBA without touching the leaves. Assuming you have fixed the CO2 the tufts should not recur.
> 
> Cheers,



I am also facing BBA but I am blasting lots of CO2. What can the reason be?  I am not suspecting my water flow as my external filter is an Eheim 2217 on a 2 feet tank (or I might be wrong). 



AlanTh said:


> Hello everyone - I'm back
> 
> I'm very pleased to say that the BBA has been gone now for quite a few months.
> 
> The thing is with this tricky subject of algae is that we do various things at the same time, to solve the problem, so that when the problem is solved - what exactly was it that we did that solved the problem?
> 
> In my case, I'm sure that taking out one of the T5 tubes was the main factor, along with increased water changes .... I also used Easycarbo for a few weeks. Whatever worked, I am just happy that it did.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Now we move onto the green algae that I still have on the gravel. Everything is as it was before - lighting, water changes etc.
> 
> The green algae isn't a huge problem, but not an insignificant problem either ... It is stilting the plant growth I am sure.
> 
> Tonight, for the first time in months, I have noticed that most plants are pearling. I take that to be a good sign. I'm now wondering what has caused this change (assuming that what I have done is good).
> 
> What I have done in the last week is :-
> 
> Clean the external filter
> Increase my ferts dose (this morning) from 15mls to 20mls
> 
> 
> So, is the pearling due to the increased ferts, or cleaning the external filter? Or both?
> 
> Or have I asked an unanswerable question?



Alan, so the solution was to reduce the lighting which was too strong right? Would reducing the amount of time for lights on period helpful?


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## ceg4048

FerdinandPorsche said:


> I am also facing BBA but I am blasting lots of CO2. What can the reason be? I am not suspecting my water flow as my external filter is an Eheim 2217 on a 2 feet tank (or I might be wrong).


There are a couple of reasons. The normal reason is poor distribution of the flow, which depends a lot on how the filter output is arranged. Another classic reason is that the timing of the gas in relation to the timing of the lights. Finally, the dissolution dissolution method might be weak. The placement of the diffuser is always an issue. Try porting the gas into the filter inlet and measuring the pH drop over the period of time from gas on to lights off at 30 minute or 1 hour intervals and this will tell you a lot about how the gas is behaving.



FerdinandPorsche said:


> Would reducing the amount of time for lights on period helpful?


It would be more useful to sharply reduce the intensity of the light. Intensity is much more important than photoperiod length.

Cheers,


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> There are a couple of reasons. The normal reason is poor distribution of the flow, which depends a lot on how the filter output is arranged. Another classic reason is that the timing of the gas in relation to the timing of the lights. Finally, the dissolution dissolution method might be weak. The placement of the diffuser is always an issue. Try porting the gas into the filter inlet and measuring the pH drop over the period of time from gas on to lights off at 30 minute or 1 hour intervals and this will tell you a lot about how the gas is behaving.
> 
> 
> It would be more useful to sharply reduce the intensity of the light. Intensity is much more important than photoperiod length.
> 
> Cheers,



Do you mean that, from the time my co2 is released into the tank till the end of light period, check for every 30 minutes / an hour, the pH value of the tank water. I have a drop checker inside the tank, and so far, it takes 3+ hours for the drop checker to turn into complete yellow. Both lights and co2 are turned on nearly the same time (difference of 15minutes max) Does it mean I should turn on my co2 system 3 hours earlier?

For the co2, I am also facing an issue with my inline diffuser, probably getting it replaced should promise better diffused bubbles into the water flow.

I do understand that intensity is more crucial compared to the period. I ask this because I do not have another lighting for this. Although I won't be able to do this, will raising the light help to reduce to intensity (I believe so?)


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## ceg4048

FerdinandPorsche said:


> it takes 3+ hours for the drop checker to turn into complete yellow.


That's the problem with the dropchecker and that's why you need to investigate the direct pH readings as a function of time.




FerdinandPorsche said:


> Both lights and co2 are turned on nearly the same time (difference of 15minutes max)


That is most likely the root cause of your problem.



FerdinandPorsche said:


> Does it mean I should turn on my co2 system 3 hours earlier?


Possibly. It depends on the injection rate. Your BBA is caused by lights turning on, plants needing huge amounts of CO2 but CO2 is still low. Gas needs to go on an saturate the water column prior to lights going on. Typically, for water that is medium alkalinity, i.e 8-10 KH the pH should drop a full unit from gas on to lights on. How many hours and via what injection rate is determined by experimentation. That is the skill and art of CO2 application.




FerdinandPorsche said:


> I do understand that intensity is more crucial compared to the period. I ask this because I do not have another lighting for this. Although I won't be able to do this, will raising the light help to reduce to intensity (I believe so?)


Yes. There is an inverse relationship between the distance of the bulb and the intensity. Study the chart in theis post Dymax Tropical 36 watt | Page 4 | UK Aquatic Plant Society find the line that corresponds to your bulb type and raise the fixture so that you stay out of the yell and somewhere between the blue and the pink. The closer you are to the blue the fewer problems you will have.

Cheers,


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> That's the problem with the dropchecker and that's why you need to investigate the direct pH readings as a function of time.



By getting the result of pH readings, what can I conclude from the possible outcome? I'll get a pH tester and come back on this issue.



ceg4048 said:


> FerdinandPorsche said: ↑
> Both lights and co2 are turned on nearly the same time (difference of 15minutes max)
> That is most likely the root cause of your problem.





ceg4048 said:


> FerdinandPorsche said: ↑
> Does it mean I should turn on my co2 system 3 hours earlier?
> Possibly. It depends on the injection rate. Your BBA is caused by lights turning on, plants needing huge amounts of CO2 but CO2 is still low. Gas needs to go on an saturate the water column prior to lights going on. Typically, for water that is medium alkalinity, i.e 8-10 KH the pH should drop a full unit from gas on to lights on. How many hours and via what injection rate is determined by experimentation. That is the skill and art of CO2 application.



Basically, my objective is to reach the optimum CO2 level (green to yellow) before or by the time lights are on (right?). This is indeed a skill that needs experiment and fine tuning. But in the end, can we justify whether our experiment is correct by any sorts of measurement, or the justification comes from the plant health.


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> That's the problem with the dropchecker and that's why you need to investigate the direct pH readings as a function of time.
> Yes. There is an inverse relationship between the distance of the bulb and the intensity. Study the chart in theis post Dymax Tropical 36 watt | Page 4 | UK Aquatic Plant Society find the line that corresponds to your bulb type and raise the fixture so that you stay out of the yell and somewhere between the blue and the pink. The closer you are to the blue the fewer problems you will have.



The graph does not show for LED type of lighting. I guess it is because LED is hard to justify based on the different numbers of LED nodes.


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## ceg4048

FerdinandPorsche said:


> By getting the result of pH readings, what can I conclude from the possible outcome? I'll get a pH tester and come back on this issue.


It's very easy. There is a direct relationship between the  pH, KH and the amount of acid in the water. That's how your dropchecker works. The liquid in your DC is Bromthymol Blue, which is a pH reagent. It simply changes color when the pH of the water sample changes. The acid that we are interested in is Carbonic acid, which is produced in the water column when CO2 dissolves in the water. Therefore we can track the availability of dissolved CO2 by tracking the change of pH over time. We don't use the data to determine absolute values, only the amount of change, which is good enough for our purposes. A pH drop of a certain amount tells us that the amount of CO2 dissolved over that time period is sufficient.

Although a pH probe is a better option, since you already have  Bromo Blue you can start looking at the data straight away.




FerdinandPorsche said:


> Basically, my objective is to reach the optimum CO2 level (green to yellow) before or by the time lights are on (right?). This is indeed a skill that needs experiment and fine tuning. But in the end, can we justify whether our experiment is correct by any sorts of measurement, or the justification comes from the plant health.


Forget about measurement unless you can afford to buy a CO2 probe. I mean, if your BBA goes away then that's your justification.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

FerdinandPorsche said:


> The graph does not show for LED type of lighting. I guess it is because LED is hard to justify based on the different numbers of LED nodes.


If you are using LED then it's likely that you will need to have a dimmer installed to reduce the intensity. You can drop the intensity to no more than about 20% for the moment, or if no dimmer is available then you'll have to find another way to obscure the light such as raising the fixture. Or, you ay not need to do this if the CO2 is fixed.

Cheers,


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> If you are using LED then it's likely that you will need to have a dimmer installed to reduce the intensity. You can drop the intensity to no more than about 20% for the moment, or if no dimmer is available then you'll have to find another way to obscure the light such as raising the fixture. Or, you ay not need to do this if the CO2 is fixed.
> 
> Cheers,



I'm setting the co2 to 3 hours earlier and make sure that observe whether it is green / yellow by the time lights are on.


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## ceg4048

You need to look at the pH profile. Do not depend on the DC. It's a test kit and test kits tell lies....regularly.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba

FerdinandPorsche said:


> The graph does not show for LED type of lighting. I guess it is because LED is hard to justify based on the different numbers of LED nodes.



Hi 
If you click the link, you will go to the forum, from there you look for the new thread about this. They have add many graph and also they have put graph and infos about LED light. 
I have read it three day ago, so I confirm that you will find the info. 

For you Ph profile it would be better to not follow the drop checker . 
To figure what is happening with you co2 you need multiple values. 


Cheers


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## FerdinandPorsche

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi
> If you click the link, you will go to the forum, from there you look for the new thread about this. They have add many graph and also they have put graph and infos about LED light.
> I have read it three day ago, so I confirm that you will find the info.
> 
> For you Ph profile it would be better to not follow the drop checker .
> To figure what is happening with you co2 you need multiple values.
> 
> 
> Cheers



Too bad they don't have the information on my led brand. But it gives me rough idea, I should be suspending it around 10-15 inches to get around 50micromols.



ceg4048 said:


> You need to look at the pH profile. Do not depend on the DC. It's a test kit and test kits tell lies....regularly.
> 
> Cheers,



I am trying to do a pH profiling. Barely 1hour left to lights out, I was trying to test for pH. Using the co2 test kit that I already had, I was wondering how to test the pH. I took out 5ml of water from the tank, poured 5 drops of co2 test liquid. The 1st drop was already transparent blue, 5 drops made it bluish. Is it co2 deficiency?


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## ceg4048

You don't need to add so many drops. Just a couple of drops will do. If it's blue then the CO2 is low so you may have an injection too low. The CO2 test reagent is exactly the same as any low range pH test reagent. It's just Bromothymol Blue. There are some color charts available if you don't have tone already. You can probably find them online.

Cheers,


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> You don't need to add so many drops. Just a couple of drops will do. If it's blue then the CO2 is low so you may have an injection too low. The CO2 test reagent is exactly the same as any low range pH test reagent. It's just Bromothymol Blue. There are some color charts available if you don't have tone already. You can probably find them online.
> 
> Cheers,



Because the product manual mentions 5drops, hence the reason why. Basically 1drop or 5drops, the objective is to see the color of the water right. All this while I thought I am having good co2 flow. I do have a sticker for the color charts, it is from blue to green to yellow.


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## ceg4048

Well the product manual wants you to run out of reagent 5X faster so you can buy more reagent. Only add more drops if you have trouble reading the colors. The color will not change from one drop to the next it will only be a more intense colr which makes it easier to see when it\s mounted in the tank.

Cheers,


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## FerdinandPorsche

After making the changes for my inline diffuser from the outlet to the inlet, finer bubbles are observed. However, testing the pH after an hour of the said change is still bluish. Any clues?


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## ceg4048

Well, either your reagent is faulty or your injection rate is faulty. It's easy enough to test the reagent by adding a drop of lemon juice or vinegar to see if it turns yellow. If it does then you know the reagent is fine and that your injection rate needs adjustment. Be careful not to gas your fish though...

Cheers,


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> Well, either your reagent is faulty or your injection rate is faulty. It's easy enough to test the reagent by adding a drop of lemon juice or vinegar to see if it turns yellow. If it does then you know the reagent is fine and that your injection rate needs adjustment. Be careful not to gas your fish though...
> 
> Cheers,



The reagent does turn yellow in the DC. Maybe the injection rate is not high but then again the noticed increase in pearling should be a good sign after changing the inline diffuser from the outlet to inlet.


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## ceg4048

Yes, if that occurs then it's a good sign, but until you measure the pH change throughout the day it\s very difficult to assess what\s happening. You can have more pearling and still be in trouble.

Cheers,


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## Rob P

ceg4048 said:


> You need to look at the pH profile. Do not depend on the DC. It's a test kit and test kits tell lies....regularly.
> 
> Cheers,



I'd just like to throw into this that I had a panic attack last night when I saw this...



My bubble rate looked reasonable so I couldn't figure what had caused this, got my PH pen out and tested and the reading was 6.4 which it always is during injection and usually gives a green DC reading. 

So swapped the fluid out as presumably it had gone faulty...


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## akwarium

What is the KH if I might ask?


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## Rob P

akwarium said:


> What is the KH if I might ask?



Me? No idea lol


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## akwarium

at pH 6.4 the amount of dissolved CO2 is exactly the same as the amount of HCO3, which is your KH.
1 KH is 21.8 mg/l HCO3.


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## ceg4048

akwarium said:


> What is the KH if I might ask?



The KH in the DC should be exactly 4. The KH of the tank water will have no bearing on the KH of the DC.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

akwarium said:


> at pH 6.4 the amount of dissolved CO2 is exactly the same as the amount of HCO3, which is your KH.
> 1 KH is 21.8 mg/l HCO3.


This is also not true. Not even close to being true. That's why many people suffer CO2 related faults.

Cheers,


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## akwarium

you're right my mistake,  forgot about the moles.
HCO3 61 g/mol
CO2 44 g/mol

lets try it again.
at pH 6.4 the amount of dissolved CO2 is exactly the same as the amount of HCO3, which forms the KH, (at least at this pH value) 
1 KH is 21.8 mg/l HCO3 is 0.0218 g/l
0.0218/61= 0.000357 mol/l
 so for every degree of KH there is  0.000357 mol/l HCO3 and at pH 6.4 that's also 0.000357 mol/l CO2.
0.000357x44= 0.0157 g/l is15.7 mg/l CO2

so at pH 6.4 ( and only 6.4!) 1 KH is 15.7 mg/l CO2 (?)

anyhow, enlighten me why CO2 levels are so crucial for BBA?


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## FerdinandPorsche

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, if that occurs then it's a good sign, but until you measure the pH change throughout the day it\s very difficult to assess what\s happening. You can have more pearling and still be in trouble.
> 
> Cheers,



Again, the pH is still bluish, not complete blue, but bluish. I know this because I have left the water mix to stay for some time and it turned completely blue as opposed to during testing.


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## ceg4048

akwarium said:


> dissolved CO2 is exactly the same as the amount of HCO3


This statement is incorrect. Dissolved CO2 never equals HCO3- unless by some coincidence. Dissolved CO2 is only ever equal to dissolved CO2.

Only a fraction of the gas converts to carbonic acid. Depending on the temperature, somewhere between 1/1000th to 1/600th (0.00001% to 0.000017%) of the gas enters into this carbonic acid / carbonate / bicarbonate equilibrium equation. This is enough to drive a dropchecker, and to change the pH because it changes the ratio of protonated hydrogen (H+) ions to hydroxyl (-OH) ions, which is exactly what the pH of the water indicates.

Also, KH test kits do not measure KH. They measure alkalinity and therefore it is entirely possible to have high KH that is a result of non-bicarbonate products. Those calculations are not valid for real world because we never really know what the carbonate hardness of our water is. We only ever know the alkalinity.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

FerdinandPorsche said:


> Again, the pH is still bluish, not complete blue, but bluish. I know this because I have left the water mix to stay for some time and it turned completely blue as opposed to during testing.


If there are no fish in your tank then you really need to turn up the CO2.

Cheers,


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## akwarium

ceg4048 said:


> This statement is incorrect. Dissolved CO2 never equals HCO3- unless by some coincidence. Dissolved CO2 is only ever equal to dissolved CO2.
> 
> Only a fraction of the gas converts to carbonic acid. Depending on the temperature, somewhere between 1/1000th to 1/600th (0.00001% to 0.000017%) of the gas enters into this carbonic acid / carbonate / bicarbonate equilibrium equation. This is enough to drive a dropchecker, and to change the pH because it changes the ratio of protonated hydrogen (H+) ions to hydroxyl (-OH) ions, which is exactly what the pH of the water indicates.


 Yes, most CO2 stays CO2. however in most cases there is already bicarbonate in the aquarium water,  and there is balance between carbonic acid, CO2, bicarbonate and carbonate depending on pH -value.
Its hard to explain in a language I don't master properly,  but maybe this figure shows you what I mean:








> Also, KH test kits do not measure KH. They measure alkalinity and therefore it is entirely possible to have high KH that is a result of non-bicarbonate products. Those calculations are not valid for real world because we never really know what the carbonate hardness of our water is. We only ever know the alkalinity.,


Again very true, but the reason why manufactures can get away whit that, is because the difference between alkalinity and KH is usually small. There is no aquarium testing equipment or any calculations that are 100% accurate, but we can make some educated guesses.

remains the question; why is CO2 so crucial for BBA problems?

ps. I hope you are not offended by me being stubborn,  I'm just trying to learn...


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## ceg4048

Hi,
    No, I'm not offended. That's because I know that The Matrix has programmed us to think in a certain way. Your English is fine and I appreciate that you speak it well enough so that I don't have to speak Dutch.

In any case the fact still remains that the chart that you've shown ONLY applies to the 0.00001% to 0.000017% of the CO2 that dissolves in the water.

So whether you calculate the HCO3- added to the water by dissolving CO2 using Molarity or by using simple weight, you must start the calculation by taking the percentage of the dissolved gas that will enter the bicarbonate equilibrium equation FIRST.

So, if for example we take the normal case where you have a cup of distilled (or RO) water (where the KH is zero) sitting on your kitchen counter, we know that generally, the concentration of  CO2 that will dissolve from atmosphere into the water will be something like 8ppm. Therefore, only 0.00001% of that 8ppm will enter the HCO3-/Carbonic acid equilibrium equation. The numbers will still be accurate and the pH of the water will fall slightly based on the Carbonic acid generated by atmospheric CO2 dissolving into the water.

In fact this is a problem with pH probe calibration solutions. The liquid is buffered so that it has a particular pH, such as 7.0 or 4.0 but the laboratory knows that air will dissolve in the liquid and the CO2 in that air will slightly acidify the liquid, so they add additional buffer to raise the pH in order to compensate for the acidification. So the calibration solutions are sold as 4.01 or 7.01. Air dissolves in the solution and brings the pH back down to 4.0 or 7.0 and that's what the probe should read.

Furthermore, it is not a valid calculation to simply measure the pH of the tank water and enter that value in the equations because tank water has many organic and inorganic acids already dissolved in the water. This drops the pH of the water and so when you plug that pH value into the equation it will generate a false high CO2 content value. That's the problem pH/CO2 controllers face, because they cannot tell how much of the waters acidity has a component due to the natural acid production of the tank. So, depending on the KH of the tank water the controller will mis-apply the injection rate.

In a dropchecker we use distilled or RO water that is free of any acid or alkaline substances and then that water is adjusted to 4 KH using only a bicarbonate source. That way we know that any change to the pH of the sample can only be due to changes in Carbonic acid from the CO2 injection. Even so, any change in pH of that DC water is caused by the 0.00001% of the dissolved CO2 that enters the DC.




akwarium said:


> the reason why manufactures can get away whit that, is because the difference between alkalinity and KH is usually small. There is no aquarium testing equipment or any calculations that are 100% accurate, but we can make some educated guesses.


The difference might be small or it might not be. Alkalinity is affected by the content of  borate, hydroxide, phosphate, silicate, nitrate, ammonia, as well as the conjugate bases of the tank produced organic acids. Any of these can be present and some are added intentionally in large quantities. I agree that we have to make some guesses and we will be close, but it's more important that we understand that we are guessing.




akwarium said:


> remains the question; why is CO2 so crucial for BBA problems?


Have a look at the thread Co2 Fluctuations and BBA | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


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## akwarium

ceg4048 said:


> Hi,
> No, I'm not offended. That's because I know that The Matrix has programmed us to think in a certain way. Your English is fine and I appreciate that you speak it well enough so that I don't have to speak Dutch.



Thnx, 



> In any case the fact still remains that the chart that you've shown ONLY applies to the 0.00001% to 0.000017% of the CO2 that dissolves in the water.


the chart is supposed to show how the amounts of carbon acid, CO2, bicarbonate and carbonate relate to each other given a pH value. Not how much of the CO2 will be turned into carbon acid or bicarbonate.

For example:
let say I have a tank whit pure RO water whit a pH of 7 and I start to add CO2. The pH will drop because out of the H2O and CO2, some H+ and HCO3 is formed. More H+ is a lower pH. As long as I increase the amount of CO2 this process will go on and the pH will drop further. But when the amount of CO2 is kept stable, the pH will stabilize: a balance is formed between the amount of CO2 and the amounts of HCO3 (KH) and H+ (pH).

Then I dicide to raise the KH by adding HCO3, some of het HCO3 reacts whit the H+ and forms CO2 and H2O. Less H+ means a higher pH. A new balance is created whit less H+ (higher pH) a little more CO2 and more HCO3. So the pH is higher and there is relatively more HCO3 compared to CO2. Exactly as the figure indicates.

Then I ad a plant that consumes CO2, the balance starts to shift again, the figure indicates that relatively less CO2 means a higher pH (less H+), and that is exactly what happens, H+ reacts whit HCO3....


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## Jafooli

Hi Clive,

Thanks for linking Co2 Fluctuations and BBA, while I have hardly any idea what you and awkarium are on about in this thread as its a bit to confusing for me some of it, I found your posts on the other thread very interesting and could understand pretty much all of it along with the other thread you link there discussing about Rubisco and CO2 molecules etc. My only problem is I forget things the next day lol, but just wanted to say how it was a great read.

Which now leads me to my question regarding drop checkers. I've read this thread, the other threads I just mentioned, and even your drop checker tutorial thread.
But have still not found an answer to some of these question.

Does liquid carbon effect the colour of the drop checker at all? I presume not as its not in a gas form, but I would like to understand it a bit better with out getting to scientific. So the CO2 from our diffusers is trying its hardest to escape, and we're trying our hardest to make sure it all dissolves and stay in the water column as long as possible, but how does it work with liquid carbon? does that try to escape the same as our CO2 gas? or as its already dissolved it remains in the water? when we fully dissolve our CO2 gas in the water, is that effectively the same as what liquid carbon is in a bottle? just CO2 molecules?

I'm sure I'm missing something, as everyone would just use liquid carbon instead of pressurised co2 if it was so great , so maybe you have a thread somewhere explaining it? or if not I hope you can just let me know.

Also how are fish going to act when someone is injecting CO2 and Liquid Carbon, it may reach toxic levels? especially if the drop checker cant give you a guide.

I have low light and inject less CO2 over a 200L, around 1.5bps, but yet I cant get my drop checker green. I also see some of my fish may be suffering an hour or two before lights out. So I'm lower it back down a bit later,  or I'm see how they act tonight and see if they have adjusted as it was only increased a little few days ago from 1bps. But then again as I use a ceramic diffuser the CO2 concentration may be larger in a certain area of my tank where the gas bubbles rise 30-40ppm, and much less in another area 10-20ppm, so I still need to work on distribution. But it may explain the problem with my fish, if there swimming through the co2 bubbles where its at a higher level, it might be a bit of a shock.

A person with higher KH needs less co2 ? to get in optimum co2 levels, so does a drop checker know this? a person with lower KH may inject more CO2, then much more CO2 gas is going to go into the drop checker to change its PH reading, so I'm a bit confused. I know I need a ph reader to be more precise with co2 levels and stability but I'm sure I read you said a tank with higher KH may need a 0.5 drop in PH where a lower KH tank might need a 1 PH drop. So my drop checker is not going to turn green is it? unless I really increase injection rate and surface agitation.


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## FerdinandPorsche

Jafooli said:


> A person with higher KH needs less co2 ?



Hi Jafooli, can I know how true is this statement. I might need to check the dKH in my tank suspecting very low KH.


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## Jafooli

Scrap that, I misunderstood. Sorry Ferdinand.

Clive has corrected me below.


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## ceg4048

Jafooli said:


> Does liquid carbon effect the colour of the drop checker at all?


Hi Jafooli,
               Liquid carbon products have nothing to do with the DC or with the reactions between CO2 and the water. For our purposes, it's better to consider that liquid carbon turns into CO2 by certain reactions only when it is inside the plant, not when it's in the water.



Jafooli said:


> I have low light and inject less CO2 over a 200l, around 1.5bps, but yet I cant get my drop checker green. I also see some of my fish may be suffering an hour or two before lights out.


Yes this is definitely a problem with your flow distribution. If you want to supplement the tank with liquid carbon until you can sort that out it will help, but liquid carbon is expensive. Check our sponsor Aquaessential and they have a much less expensive version of it.



Jafooli said:


> A person with higher KH needs less co2 ? to get in optimum co2 levels


No, this is not true. Why do people believe this? The KH of water has absolutely nothing to do with the solubility of any gas. As I mentioned before in an earlier posts, that is the reason people are confused. CO2 enters the water in exactly the same way in high KH water as in low KH water. Any injection rate being used would dissolve exactly the same amount of CO2 regardless of KH as long as the temperature and pressure of the waters are the same. The difference is that high KH water will neutralize the carbonic acid more easily than in low KH water. That's what alkalinity means. Alkalinity means the ability of water to neutralize acid and to resis the pH change due to acid. So the pH drop when adding CO2 to high KH water will be small due to the alkaline buffers, but the dissolved CO2 is the same. In low KH water, since there is low alkalinity and not much buffering, the pH drop will be greater. Low alkalinity water does not resist changes to pH due to acid addition. So, the same amount of CO2 added to low KH water causes a large shift in pH but only a small shift in pH for the high KH water.



akwarium said:


> the chart is supposed to show how the amounts of carbon acid, CO2, bicarbonate and carbonate relate to each other given a pH value. Not how much of the CO2 will be turned into carbon acid or bicarbonate.


And that's why you are having difficulty understand this concept. The chart only shows you the relationship of that small portion of the dissolved gas and how that small portion interacts with the water. Because the percentage of the dissolved gas that enters the equation is constant for a given  temperature, pressure and salinity, we can then calculate what the total amount of dissolved CO2 is based on the pH drop.

When your DC is lime green and you look at the pH/KH/CO2 table you infer the pH from the color and then you go to the chart. That tells you the dissolved CO2 is 30 ppm in the DC but it does not require all the 30ppm of CO2 to make the DC green. it only requires 0.00001% of 30ppm to turn the DC green. The other 99.99999% is CO2 does NOT turn into Carbonic acid and does NOT turn into HCO3-. You are misinterpreting the chart because what the chart tells you is that the 0.00001% of the CO2 that turns into HCO3- is a representation of (a proxy for) the 99.99999%t of CO2 that is dissolved in the DC water.

That's why CO2 has very little effect on the KH of the water, because the amount of HCO3- formed is a very small amount. The small amount of H+ that results in the equilibrium equation however is enough to change the pH and to therefore change the color of the Bromothymol blue.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048

Dropcheckers do not care what the KH of the tank water is. if 30ppm of CO2 is dissolved in the tank water then that 30ppm will evaporate into the airspace of the DC then will dissolve into the DC water and will be 30ppm. That's how a DC works.

Cheers,


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## Jafooli

Cheers Clive,

I'm get out of this one before I look even more stupid as I can't even begin to explain what I was thinking, but you've answered my questions now which has helped me to understand the whole scenario much better. I also now know its Alkalinity which plays the key role with the PH drops in different KH tanks, rather than what I was thinking with CO2 and KH. 

Hope I've not scrambled your mind FerdinandPorsche


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## FerdinandPorsche

Jafooli said:


> Cheers Clive,
> 
> I'm get out of this one before I look even more stupid as I can't even begin to explain what I was thinking, but you've answered my questions now which has helped me to understand the whole scenario much better. I also now know its Alkalinity which plays the key role with the PH drops in different KH tanks, rather than what I was thinking with CO2 and KH.
> 
> Hope I've not scrambled your mind FerdinandPorsche



I will drop the high kh low co2 theory


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