# Water Changes - How do you do yours?



## halibut (6 Jun 2013)

Hi,

I'm getting set up to start a 180 litre planted tank. I'm going the EI route, so as i understand it I'll need to be making 50% water changes each week.

The tank is going to contain livestock, so the question is how do you all approach this without killing the fish? On my current (much) smaller tank I do a 25% change per week that involves Aquasafe dechloranator and kettles of boiling water mixed in a bucket, but that just isn't going to scale to 90 litres (9 buckets!) per week.

I was thinking of tackling the chlorine issue with either a Heavy Metal Axe like this one:  DD HMA 80-C  or possibly just a carbon based dechlorinator like this: Koi Pond Filters | Buy Detox Dechlorinators | Evolution Aqua Ltd but that still leaves the issue of temperature. The 210 Watt heater built into the Eheim filter I'm going for would by my calcs take 7 hours to raise that water from a wintry 11'C to a tropical 25'C.

How are you all doing this?


----------



## Alastair (6 Jun 2013)

I personally would take out half the water then get an attachment for a hose that attaches to a mixer tap and run it to the desired tank temp then connect a hose that runs straight to your tank and fill up. Just make sure you treat with dechlorinator for the whole tank volume. Seachem prime is best

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## halibut (6 Jun 2013)

I've read a lot that says that using the hot water system is bad. Too much copper from the hot water tank and gunk accumulated in the supply tank, etc. Not suitable for drinking and not suitable for fish.

Have you never had any problems with it?


----------



## Andy Thurston (6 Jun 2013)

I use hot tap and syphon from a bucket in bath. Theres no hotwater cylinder or water softeners in my house so a bucket full clears any nastys from household pipework.  i add enough dechlorinator for whole tank into bucket then start syphon. I also syphon from tank to garden too


----------



## Andy Thurston (6 Jun 2013)

I cant get hose on any of the taps in my house


----------



## ian_m (6 Jun 2013)

halibut said:


> I've read a lot that says that using the hot water system is bad. Too much copper from the hot water tank and gunk accumulated in the supply tank, etc. Not suitable for drinking and not suitable for fish.


I suspect rumours....if copper were dissolving in water then why have copper pipes fitted years ago not dissolved away ?

The green you often see deposited by dripping taps is copper based, but more often than not is from the poor quality brass taps rather than coming from the copper pipes.

There are issues with lead, in that soft water attacks lead, but water companies in soft water areas artificially harden the water so as to coat lead pipes with limescale preventing lead getting in the water.

Just found this quote from copper tube design sheet...

"It should be pointed out that there are no known public
water supplies in this country with which copper cannot
be used entirely satisfactorily, since supplies are treated
to remove any acidity before being delivered to the
mains."


----------



## dw1305 (6 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


ian_m said:


> It should be pointed out that there are no known public water supplies in this country with which copper cannot be used entirely satisfactorily, since supplies are treated to remove any acidity before being delivered to the mains


This is true, the  PIMS (Phosphate Induced Metal Stabilisation) treatment of drinking water means that it won't have any copper or lead in it, details are in this post: <HMA filter | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## halibut (6 Jun 2013)

ian_m said:


> It should be pointed out that there are no known public water supplies in this country with which copper cannot be used entirely satisfactorily, since supplies are treated to remove any acidity before being delivered to the mains


Strange. According to my local water companies water repor (DWR Cymru) I should have a pH of 7.6771. We're a surface water area so that sounds artificially boosted. However what comes out of my kitchen tap is distinctly pH 6.5 with bugger all Kh or Gh and has been for years. It's a bit of a pain tbh.


----------



## halibut (6 Jun 2013)

dw1305 said:


> treatment of drinking water means that it won't have any copper or lead in it


 
Would that survive a central heating system / hot water tank intact enough that it shouldn't pick up an copper from it?
If so it sounds like I can ditch the HMA idea and just go for the carbon based dechlorinator and drive it from a mixer.


----------



## ian_m (6 Jun 2013)

halibut said:


> Would that survive a central heating system / hot water tank intact enough that it shouldn't pick up an copper from it?
> If so it sounds like I can ditch the HMA idea and just go for the carbon based dechlorinator and drive it from a mixer.


Probably fine, but I would run some water off first, to get rid of any water that has been sitting in the pipes. Obviously use dechlorinator as well as you will still have chlorine/chloramine to get rid of.


----------



## halibut (6 Jun 2013)

ian_m said:


> Obviously use dechlorinator as well as you will still have chlorine/chloramine to get rid of


That's what I thought the carbon based dechlorinator was for. Koi Pond Filters | Buy Detox Dechlorinators | Evolution Aqua Ltd Or am I missing something?


----------



## ian_m (6 Jun 2013)

halibut said:


> That's what I thought the carbon based dechlorinator was for. Koi Pond Filters | Buy Detox Dechlorinators | Evolution Aqua Ltd Or am I missing something?


Missing 2nd part/action.

There can be two parts to the water treatments, first based on sodium thiosulphate, gets rid of chlorine/chloramine (read here Dealing with chlorine and chloramine | The Skeptical Aquarist) and second part bonds to heavy metals for take them out of solution, a chelator (Conditioners | The Skeptical Aquarist).


----------



## dw1305 (6 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


halibut said:


> Strange. According to my local water companies water repor (DWR Cymru) I should have a pH of 7.6771. We're a surface water area so that sounds artificially boosted....with bugger all Kh or Gh and has been for years.


This is because they use NaOH to raise pH, this disassociates to Na+ and OH- ions it doesn't add any dKH (carbonates) or dGH (multivalent ions).


> However what comes out of my kitchen tap is distinctly pH 6.5


 This is probably because NaOH doesn't have any buffering, it fully disassociates into ions. The actual amount of NaOH added by Welsh Water will be very small as even a very small addition of  bases ("H+ ion acceptors") will raise the pH considerably.

pH is a bit of a funny measurement, mainly because it doesn't tell you about amounts of acids and bases just ratio. As an example if your water is under pressure in the main it will hold more dissolved gases, and CO2 is a very soluble gas, this will depress pH, mainly because you don't have any carbonate buffering that would maintain the pH. As you get nearer to pure water pH becomes a less relevant parameter until when you are below about 50microS conductivity, when it is fundamentally meaningless.


halibut said:


> It's a bit of a pain tbh.


It doesn't need to be, in many ways it is an advantage as it is much easier to add things to water than to take them away. People all over the UK are using RO units to get what you get from the tap.

Have you thought about keeping/breeding _Apistogramma_? sounds like your water should be ideal. If you do want to add some dGH/dKH you could just add a bit of "Oyster shell" chick grit to the filter, or you could use the re-mineralising mix fromteh excellent "James' Planted Tank" <James' Planted Tank - Re-mineralising RO Water>.

Also have a look here:<http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9323>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## dw1305 (6 Jun 2013)

Hi all,
Missed a bit. 





halibut said:


> That's what I thought the carbon based dechlorinator was for


Yes they are.


ian_m said:


> gets rid of chlorine/chloramine (read here Dealing with chlorine and chloramine | The Skeptical Aquarist) and second part bonds to heavy metals for take them out of solution, a chelator (Conditioners | The Skeptical Aquarist).


I love the "Skeptical Aquarist".  A EDTA containing conditioner like "Pond Prime" would do both jobs if you wanted "belt and braces", or you could rely on the DOC from this thread <Purigens effect on humic acid and anti fungal benefits | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


----------



## halibut (7 Jun 2013)

OK. So now I'm officially lost and confused... 



ian_m said:


> There can be two parts to the water treatments, first based on sodium thiosulphate, gets rid of chlorine/chloramine (read here Dealing with chlorine and chloramine | The Skeptical Aquarist) and second part bonds to heavy metals for take them out of solution, a chelator (Conditioners | The Skeptical Aquarist).


 
So... The carbon based dechlorinator will take care of the chlorine/chloramine. If I'm reading this all correctly, the EDTA in various water conditioners is there to take care of heavy metals, isn't it? And as Darrel said earlier:



dw1305 said:


> the PIMS (Phosphate Induced Metal Stabilisation) treatment of drinking water means that it won't have any copper or lead in it, details are in this post: .


 
And following the link to HMA filter | UK Aquatic Plant Society reads that uk tapwater should be virtually free of any harmful heavy metals.

And the link to the Sceptical Aquarist (Conditioners | The Skeptical Aquarist) reads to me like pretty much all the other gunk in water conditioners is just snake oil.



dw1305 said:


> or you could rely on the DOC from this thread .


This bit though, I'm not sure about. DOC's? Are you saying I could rely on these already being in the water Darrel?

If i'm misunderstanding some/all of this I do apologise. All I've done in the past is drop 5ml of aquasafe in a bucket of tapwater with a kettle of hot in it, so this is a bit of a brave new world for me and the learning curve is a steep one.


----------



## ian_m (7 Jun 2013)

You 180l tank is same size as my Vision 180 and I use this to heat the water as my hot water is ion-exchange softened and can't/shouldn't be used in tanks.

Water change heater project. | UK Aquatic Plant Society


----------



## Andy Thurston (7 Jun 2013)

halibut said:


> If i'm misunderstanding some/all of this I do apologise. All I've done in the past is drop 5ml of aquasafe in a bucket of tapwater with a kettle of hot in it, so this is a bit of a brave new world for me and the learning curve is a steep one.



I think darrel was refering to documents in this thread rather than the ones in the threads that he linked

Carbon dechlorinator ok but wont remove any metals that may be there, hence "belt and braces" use seachem prime it does 1000s of litres per bottle and theres no need for carbon dechloritator

Seachem Prime Water Conditioner Fresh And Salt Water


----------



## dw1305 (7 Jun 2013)

Hi all,


halibut said:


> So... The carbon based dechlorinator will take care of the chlorine/chloramine. If I'm reading this all correctly, the EDTA in various water conditioners is there to take care of heavy metals, isn't it?


Either the water conditioner or the carbon filter should remove chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals. Having both is "belt and braces". The activated carbon will eventually have all of its exchange sites filled with ions and then it will just be a biological media. It has to be "activated" <Activated carbon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia>.


halibut said:


> This bit though, I'm not sure about. DOC's? Are you saying I could rely on these already being in the water Darrel?


No, you would have to add the DOC via humic substances from peat, Indian Almond or Oak leaves, Alder cones, real bog-wood, _Osmunda_ fibre etc. The compounds that you want are the same ones that produce the tannin tinted water.  Citric acid is another potential chelating substance.


> Humic substances interact with over 50 of the elements in the periodic table. These include plant nutrients, heavy metals and the halogens. All humic substances tint the water yellow to rusty brown, and all are able to chelate positively-charged multivalent ions. They can do this because the negative charged groups present in all humic substances attract cations that have a multiple positive charge, such as iron (Fe++ and Fe+++), calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++). Cations with a single charge, like sodium (Na+), aren't affected .......


 From: <Humic substances | The Skeptical Aquarist>


halibut said:


> If I'm reading this all correctly, the EDTA in various water conditioners is there to take care of heavy metals, isn't it?


Yes, nearly all EDTA containing compounds will bind heavy metals. The only exception is the  FeEDTA we use as an iron source in the planted tank. In that case the Fe++(+) ion is the most tightly bound ion, and other ions can't displace it. It only works, as an iron source, because it is photo-degraded by light, so a trickle of Fe++(+) ions are being released all the time during the photo-period.
How strongly an ion is bound depends on its "stability constant", the higher the logK value, the more strongly it is bound. Constants range from 25 (Fe), down through all the heavy metals (Cu, Zn, Pb) from 24(Cr) through to 16(Co), down to Calcium (Ca) is 10.7 & Magnesium (Mg) 8.7. The least tightly bound ion is Na+ with a logK value of 1.7. 





halibut said:


> And following the link to HMA filter | UK Aquatic Plant Society reads that uk tapwater should be virtually free of any harmful heavy metals.


Yes it should be, the EU limits on heavy metals in drinking water are very tight, so all the water companies dose their water with phosphates, even if it is a naturally hard and alkaline supply. 


halibut said:


> reads to me like pretty much all the other gunk in water conditioners is just snake oil.


I would think so, all the companies are pretty evasive about what their conditioners contain. "Amquel" has a patent, so we know how it works. My suspicion would be that all the newer, "better" conditioners use EDTA and sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate (or similar) as well as sodium thiosulphate. The EDTA chelates any heavy metals (as long as Fe ions aren't present in large amounts) and the hydroxymethane - end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble compound "aminomethanesulfonate". The sulfonate end of the molecule reacts with both free-available chlorine, and combined-available chlorine in chloramines. Any ammonia (from the break down of the chloramine) is then mopped up by the sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate.

cheers Darrel


----------



## halibut (7 Jun 2013)

ian_m said:


> You 180l tank is same size as my Vision 180 and I use this to heat the water as my hot water is ion-exchange softened and can't/shouldn't be used in tanks.
> 
> Water change heater project. | UK Aquatic Plant Society


 
Wow. I gotta get me one of those one day. Plumb it in permanently in the loft with a few solenoids, a syphon and a drain for the tank and you've got an automatic water change


----------



## halibut (7 Jun 2013)

Big clown said:


> use seachem prime it does 1000s of litres per bottle and theres no need for carbon dechloritator


 
According to their website it's 5ml per 200l. That is very good. The aquasafe I've used for years is 5ml for 10l.

Years ago I had a garden watering dohicky that would add weedkiller and the like to the water coming out of a hose. Presumably something like that could be used to add the seachem as the hose filled the tank.

Anybody know what a gizmo like that is properly called? Goggling "garden watering dohicky that would add weedkiller" doesn't sound productive.


----------



## halibut (7 Jun 2013)

halibut said:


> Anybody know what a gizmo like that is properly called?


 
Hose feeder. I remembered who made it:
Miracle-Gro Garden Feeder

Load something like that up with seachem (and probably the Kh and Gh booster I use) and let it do the mixing in line.


----------



## ian_m (7 Jun 2013)

I think the issue here is the required dose is very small, most of the devices to add things to flowing water are aimed at adding quite considerable amounts of fertiliser/weed killer etc. ie the containers are many litres in size.

If you really want to measure accurately as opposed to just adding "capfuls" get some 5ml syringes from Ebay to dispense Prime or dilute the Prime 10:1 and dose 50ml instead of 5ml from a measuring bottle.


----------



## Andy Thurston (7 Jun 2013)

Charterhouse Aquatics Mobile

You can use these for dosing nutrients, lc and i dare say dechlorinator too


----------



## halibut (7 Jun 2013)

ian_m said:


> I think the issue here is the required dose is very small, most of the devices to add things to flowing water are aimed at adding quite considerable amounts of fertiliser/weed killer etc. ie the containers are many litres in size


Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant to dilute it first before putting it in the feeder.


----------



## ian_m (7 Jun 2013)

I would of thought you need to keep things simple and therefore less things to go wrong.

- Dose tank with Prime enough for 180litres in your case.
- Add water to tank via hose pipe from mixer tap.

Job done.

Some people put cold water straight into their tank, especially if you only have plants, however when I did this in the winter the tank temp dropped below 15°C and fish were not happy, which is why I went to the heated water butt route.


----------



## kirk (7 Jun 2013)

I just run an air pump and heater set to temp for a couple of hours. Then i pump the water in and out via a window cleaning pump. saves my rotator in sholder lifting and holding 5 gallon containers at shoulder hight and pouring słów not to mess plants up.  I also do this when i clean pipes on filter. I put the inlets pipe off the pump to the filter outlet and draw all the air out.


----------



## Andy Thurston (7 Jun 2013)

Pumps and water butts seem a waste of time,  money and space,  unless your tap is unsuitable.  Our lass complains enough about things in the house that "SHE" dosent need and i dont have a garage. I change 300l a week and havnt got anywhere to put that much water. I like the idea of restarting filter syphon with a electric pump but i would have to hide it in cabinet as a permanent part of filter plumbing


----------



## RolyMo (7 Jun 2013)

I did note on another post that if you intend to use Seachem Purigen then you cannot use declorinators that have the slime coat protection such as Aquasafe. 

I did this and got some more Purigen and switched to Seachem Prime and low and behold the clarity appears to last longer. 

I fill up buckets in the kitchen tap mixer adding syringe fills of the appropriate tank measurement of Prime.

Fish seem to be fine. 




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## kirk (7 Jun 2013)

Not at all, i do not store water, it was all bits i have left from window cleaning. No garage either pump goes in shed containers in a shelf i built in wood shed. 300 l is a lot of water. Id ideały do what someone has done on here and have a constant tricle change hard plumbed tank etc. Id love to build a purpose spot with the dream tank.  Ive even thought about plumbing a smallish plastic tank and ballcock in the eaves with plastic push fit trunked in behind tank with a tap on wall hidden.


----------



## stu_ (7 Jun 2013)

ian_m said:


> I would of thought you need to keep things simple and therefore less things to go wrong.
> - Dose tank with Prime enough for 180litres in your case.
> - Add water to tank via hose pipe from mixer tap.
> Job done.
> .


 

This^^
Been doing this method for 2 years,cold & hot water taps used.
I still have the same number of Amano's now that i started with.


----------



## kirk (7 Jun 2013)

stu_ said:


> This^^
> Been doing this method for 2 years,cold & hot water taps used.
> I still have the same number of Amano's now that i started with.


.   Do you have a cylinder or boiler?   I suppose i could test Some how for cooper levels in our storage tank.  the method you use sound a simple method.


----------



## stu_ (7 Jun 2013)

My house is old.
We're still on the old system of boiler in the kitchen, hot water tank in the airing c'board


----------



## Andy Thurston (7 Jun 2013)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is true, the  PIMS (Phosphate Induced Metal Stabilisation) treatment of drinking water means that it won't have any copper or lead in it, details are in this post: <HMA filter | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.
> 
> cheers Darrel



That means this must work then, but i wouldnt like the idea of gunk in cylinder getting into tank


----------



## halibut (8 Jun 2013)

Big clown said:


> I like the idea of restarting filter syphon with a electric pump but i would have to hide it in cabinet as a permanent part of filter plumbing


 
You could just put in a caniser filter outlet and run the pipe into your cabinet and terminate it in a good (i.e. non drip) inline shutoff valve then whatever piping / hoze connector you wanted. So long as the outlet is deeper than water you take out on the water change the shutoff valve should vacuum lock the water in the pipe. Once you open it again it should start automatically.


----------



## halibut (8 Jun 2013)

stu_ said:


> My house is old. We're still on the old system of boiler in the kitchen, hot water tank in the airing c'board


Sadly me too. It's why I was trying to avoid using the hot water tap. I also lack a mixer tap. Perhaps I should be spending my money on plumbing instead of a planted tank? 

I am shortly going to have a go at putting a long lengh of hose pipe coiled into a very hot bath and feed it from the cold tap. See if it can turn it into a large heat exchanger. It'll depend I suppose on the thermal conductivity of the hose, but otherwise it's exactly the same arrangement as a hot water cylinder, only without the copper.


----------



## Brian Murphy (15 Jun 2013)

I just read through this quickly, but read that using seachem purigen with dechlorinator with slime coat (i use API stress coat) will react or something?


----------



## tim (16 Jun 2013)

The slime coat, renders the Purigen useless/unable to recharge, prime is the recommended dechlorinater to use with Purigen.


----------

