# Fish gasping for air



## The Don (25 Jul 2016)

Hi guys, did a 50% water change this weekend and ive started dosing liquid easy carbo last week. I have 240lt tank and been doing 4ml a day. After the water change on Saturday the tank was looking crystal clear and I was really happy. Sunday morning every fish is at the surface gasping for air and the water has gone cloudy? I've had the air stone on since and immediately did another 1/4 water change as I thought the only thing I could have possibly done was over dosed them on carbon? I had soaked some pebbles in it to destroy the green algae and thinking perhaps they absorbed it and that could be the cause?


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## Miss Pennyapple (25 Jul 2016)

Have you tested for ammonia? Fish gasping, cloudiness etc are classic signs of ammonia. Is this a mature tank?


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## GHNelson (25 Jul 2016)

Hi Don
Cloudy water could mean a bacteria bloom....too much disturbance doing a water change could cause this.
Or good filter bacteria die off......expelled...... into the water column may also cause cloudy water, this seems more likely as this event can strip the water column of Oxygen!
Do as your doing....plus up the aeration as much as possible....stop dosing Liquid Carbon for a few days!


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## dw1305 (25 Jul 2016)

Hi all, 





The Don said:


> I had soaked some pebbles in it to destroy the green algae and thinking perhaps they absorbed it and that could be the cause?


That would be my guess. <"Aldehyde oxidise"> easily and are reducing agents, meaning that they take dissolved oxygen from the water. 





hogan53 said:


> Do as your doing....plus up the aeration as much as possible....stop dosing Liquid Carbon for a few days!


 My suggestion as well.

cheers Darrel


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## The Don (25 Jul 2016)

It's a mature tank but had a ph drop innocent as in my previous thread, once that was all sorted I used an anti bacteria and fungal treatment to help the cardinal tetras that had suffered with the ph stress. Just lost another two tetras. If it was an over dose of easy carb, with the offending pebbles removed and water changes you would think the tank would be improving. I think it's like suggested good bacteria has been effected possibly by the anti bacteria treatment. Just strange it happened after the huge water change when you'd expect the tank to be returned to normal


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## Miss Pennyapple (25 Jul 2016)

The Don said:


> It's a mature tank but had a ph drop innocent as in my previous thread, once that was all sorted I used an anti bacteria and fungal treatment to help the cardinal tetras that had suffered with the ph stress. Just lost another two tetras. If it was an over dose of easy carb, with the offending pebbles removed and water changes you would think the tank would be improving. I think it's like suggested good bacteria has been effected possibly by the anti bacteria treatment. Just strange it happened after the huge water change when you'd expect the tank to be returned to normal



If you suspect the good filter bacteria have been affected by the recent meds you should test for ammonia/nitrite and perform large water changes until things settle again and you're getting 0 readings for them both.


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## alto (25 Jul 2016)

The Don said:


> did a 50% water change this weekend and ive started dosing liquid *easy carbo* last week. *I have 240lt tank and been doing 4ml a day*. After the water change on Saturday the tank was looking crystal clear and I was really happy. Sunday morning every fish is at the surface gasping for air and the water has gone cloudy?



I'd contact the manufacturer with Lot # & see if they had any other reports - make sure you get someone in tech service to help rather than sales or reception, as they may be able to assist with trouble shooting.
Your experience with a product such as Easy Carbo is unexpected, that's a reasonable dose (unfortunately there are no actual specifications listed on the website but I doubt this product is significantly different than Excel)
I don't know how a "pebble" could absorb sufficient EC to affect what seems a failrly large tank (unless you have a LOT of pebbles???)




The Don said:


> once that was all sorted I used an anti bacteria and fungal treatment to help the cardinal tetras that had suffered with the ph stress. Just lost another two tetras.


What symptoms were cardinals displaying?

Unfortunately what manufacturers don't reveal is that any _anti bacteria and fungal_ chemicals targeted for aquarium use will affect filter bacteria, most of these compounds will also stress fish (who are now swimming in the stuff so there's no escape) - treating fish with medication is always a balancing act between the disease related stress & chemical stress
Whenever you add meds to a tank, recommended protocol is 25 - 50% daily water change before each dose, maximize water level oxygen (eg, decrease tank temp from 25C to 23C, ensure good surface movement, allow filter returns to splash gently), don't mix chemicals (the Easy Carbo may be interacting with the med chemicals) 

Most medications are not very stable under aquarium conditions so daily dosing is often the standard protocol, it's always worthwhile to look up independent information on the use of the specific compounds (in the medication) with regards to ornamental fish treatment.

If you add any sort of med & observe an adverse reaction, call the manufacturer - they should be able to suggest possible cause & guide you through some of the possibilities.

At this point - especially as fish are still dying & water has gone cloudy,
I'd stop dosing,
perform a 50% water change (use additional water conditioner - Prime is excellent in this situation as it also binds ammonia & nitrites & can relieve some fish stress),
add in carbon to remove residual medication product/by-product

If you feel you need to do something re the cloudy water, add in a UV sterilizer or ultra-micron filter - don't add any more chemicals (eg, water clarifying agents that offer to clear water by precipitating out whatever) 

That pH 3 crash may've affected filter bacteria, so your tank may still be re-balancing.
If you can manage, just try doing 25% daily water changes for the next week or 2 - if you can't manage daily, try to commit to alternate day water changes - always syphon the substrate area for these rather than just removing water from the upper areas, try to cover most of the tank footprint. 
Watch for signs of ich (you do want to treat this with chemicals) as this can often occur as a secondary infection given the stresses of the last month


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## alto (25 Jul 2016)

Miss Pennyapple said:


> perform large water changes


be cautious with this if fish are already in distress - make sure to match tank water as closely as possible re temperature, check pH of tank vs tap (& anything else that you're set up to test), make sure you're using sufficient dechlorinator (many water boards will add additional chlorine or even chloramines during periods or heat or increased rain or water system repairs)

If you want to change more water, try 25% water changes every 12 hours ... fish response will generally tell you which is preferred.
If fish appear consistently miserable or more stressed with water change (just the mechanics of it can be stressful to fish, especially when fish are already feeling unwell), limit water changes to ~25 - 30%


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## dw1305 (25 Jul 2016)

Hi all,





The Don said:


> Just lost another two tetras.


Sorry to hear this, because of the problems you've had lately it could be a range of factors. 

High levels of ammonia can cause irreversible gill damage, and fish may still die even after ammonia levels are back to normal. Usually with low dissolved oxygen levels (when they are not caused by an ammonia spike) fish death occurs before gill damage. 

I'd keep the aeration high, there are a number of doing this, they are described in <"Aeration and dissolved oxygen...">. I would let your floating plants cover more of the surface, they aren't CO2 limited so can make use of any extra nutrients.

Because <"you've had low pH"> there is a possibility that metals (like aluminium and originally from your tap supply) have become available. You can complex there with EDTA (FeEDTA won't work) or tannins from bog-wood (or <"dead leaves">). 

You won't have clear water with added tannins and purigen will remove these from the tank. 

cheers Darrel


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## The Don (25 Jul 2016)




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## The Don (25 Jul 2016)

I did another small water change (2 buckets) I haloex dechlorinator and proper Ph when doing so. Added another recharged purigen bag to the filter and some quick start. As you can see in the pic the water is cloudy but some fish are returning from the Surface now


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## GHNelson (25 Jul 2016)

....Hopefully your over the worst!


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## The Don (28 Jul 2016)

Ok no more fish death,  the gasping at the surface stopped and tank water isn't mega cloudy. So I've turned off the air stone today as I'm now getting the opposite effect and panicking the plants are looking sad minus the pink lotus which has taken to new levels during all this mayhem and grown five lily pads?! So Why is my water still got loads of mater floating around in it? The filter has 3 puregen bags and poly foss in it and usually polished. I understand it's maybe not a good idea to clean it out yet the tank must be fragile. Oh I've also noticed my Valiss is melting is this because of the liquid easy carbo?


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## dw1305 (29 Jul 2016)

Hi all, 





The Don said:


> So I've turned off the air stone today


Can you put it on a time switch so it comes on at night? 





The Don said:


> ......minus the pink lotus which has taken to new levels during all this mayhem and grown five lily pads?!


That is suggestive that you've had an ammonia spike. 





The Don said:


> Oh I've also noticed my Valiss is melting is this because of the liquid easy carbo?


 Probably, or possibly the low pH. I've found it doesn't like the rain-water tanks, but grows really well in our 17dKH tap supply (all low nutrient).

Is that a _Tylomelania_ snail at the front of the tank? If it is, have you had it long? and do the smaller shell whorls show much loss of colour? If you have had it a while, and the shell isn't degraded, then you haven't had a period with low pH.

cheers Darrel


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## The Don (29 Jul 2016)

Good idea I'll look for another timer plug purely for the air stone to come on at night, what's the suggestion about my filter? Am I to sit it out with the un polished looking water until the tanks had a chance to settle before cleaning the floss in the filter? I think the snails are lop ear ones? And yes he's the oldest one.. been through the lot  I have phases of buying small ones but they never seem to make it past the juvenile stages but have more luck with the big ones


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## dw1305 (29 Jul 2016)

Hi all,





The Don said:


> Water tested at local aquarium. I was shocked to be honest when she said pH3,





The Don said:


> think the snails are lop ear ones? And yes he's the oldest one.. been through the lot  I have phases of buying small ones but they never seem to make it past the juvenile stages but have more luck with the big ones


 OK that is pretty conclusive that your tank pH hasn't been anywhere near pH3, and probably hasn't been below pH7. 

Snails can only form new shell material at the mantle (head end), and because your snail doesn't have shell erosion on the older whorls the snail  hasn't experienced low carbonate hardness. When the pH falls below pH7, calcium carbonate (CaCO3) will begin to dissolve from the shell first (the biogenic aragonite form of CaCO3 is more soluble than the calcite form), if the pH rises above pH7 that CaCO3 comes back out of solution, but it won't return to the shell.   





The Don said:


> what's the suggestion about my filter? Am I to sit it out with the un polished looking water until the tanks had a chance to settle before cleaning the floss in the filter?


It would be my suggestion. <"I'm not a great fan of mechanical media in canister filters">. I like any fine filtering material in an "easy clean" pre-filter.

If the flow through the filter had noticeably fallen before you had the water cloudiness and fish deaths? 

It may be that the filter material had become de-oxygenated and ammonia levels built up due to the failure of nitrification. Nitrification is an oxygen intensive process, and despite what you read in the <"endless "cycling" posts"> on other forums it is oxygen that is the prime metric in biological filtration, not ammonia.  

cheers Darrel


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