# Let's talk aquascaping "the future"



## Johnny Ciotti

Hello friends,

I'd like to start a discussion, if interest allows, on the topic of aquascaping in the future. More specifically the near to very near future and what trends you'd forecast.

Over the last few years we've seen an explosion in various aquascaping techniques being adopted by the masses. These trends are typically set when the winner of the IAPLC is announced or someone like Mr. Amano, Olver Knot, George Farmer, the CAU or Jeff Senske release an obviously ground breaking aquarium photo.

Just recently the reverse or perspective  aquascaping technique has been implemented into more traditional iwagumi and nature aquarium styles. 






Before this we saw an increase in pillar like stone grouping and forested mountain or tree like moss scapes.




































With the examples of layouts shown above being a very small percentage of aquariums done in this fashion, what do you believe to be the next trend? What are your thoughts on where this is going for the next IAPLC? What do you believe is the determining factor for people to want to replicate these types of layouts in great succession?


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## Tom

Forget back to front, I'd like to see an upside down layout. That would impress me.


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## Stickleback

I personally would like to see more wild and natural looking scapes. 

The above examples are beautiful but have an air of the formal garden about them. They are more cut flowers in a vase than wild plants.

If we want to do something different we would do well taking British woodland as inspiration rather than just copying the Japanese.

We need Capability Brown back.

S


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## Johnny Ciotti

I like this idea, do you have a good example of what you'd like to see? Essential you are saying we need to get back to the basics of design and force the layout less? More of a natural development with a stronger emphasis on plant placement and selection?


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## hotweldfire

Well said Rufus. After all, let's remember what the Japanese were doing with Nature Aquarium. They were copying their own natural landscapes and trying to recreate them in a glass cube. We could do worse than than doing the same. After all, our own natural landscapes are as beautiful.


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## GreenNeedle

TBH I don't hink much is going to change.  All of the above are only progressions of the style that has dominated the past decade or more.

This is the style that wins the big competition so everybody sticks with it.

If we are talking what style will become more popular rather than what style(s) will the IAPLC top 10 be then I think the minimalist styles of Island scaping, more open space with well chosen lighting etc.

A- Because it is more modern looking and in a scene where Optiwhite, LED, glassware and other 'clean' modern equipment are starting to be a given it is quite obvious to me that the scaping styles would follow these lines.

B - More and more people in these competitions are actually scaping the tanks in their living room rather than one in their studio.  Goes without saying they will then try and make scapes to fit in with their living room's style.  With the aquascaping community becoming younger this means living rooms are more modern and thus the scapes will become more modern.

I guess what I am trying to say (and I got into a heap of trouble on ASW for suggesting something along these lines)  The 'fluffy' old pruned line of woodland with midground and carpet (3 stright lines sort of style) fits in well with Grandma's cosy cluttered living room but it doesn't fit in with a modern uncluttered minimalist room.

By that I don't mean the ultra modern minimalist open plan apartment style.  I mean these days we keep the ornaments to a minimum, the photos off the wall, single pieces of artwork on the wall and laminate/wood flooring.

We aren't in any hurry to fill up the shelves to bursting.  We don't want to be polishing, dusting brasswares, silver, glass etc and we don't like a barrow load of Doulton on our shelves.  We most definately don't have a display cabinet full of porcelain etc.

Maybe you guys will understand what I mean by the above cos so far I don't think people have quite understood it.

Andy


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## Stephan

Some of the layouts shown in the post above are just gross misunderstandings of the original idea. Amano was and still is a master of creating evocative aquarium layouts (Did he coin the term _aquascaping_? Not sure he did). He allows for plenty of space for personal imagination. His scenes were never as blatant or tacky as some of the ones shown in the images above. I mean, no offense but a TREE under water? You'd just expect Sponge Bob to come wandering round behind the 'trunk' any minute. I seem to remember this even fetched a first place in some competition. But there is no room for imagination because a tree is a tree. Period. I really wonder if some aquascapers are better off with a miniature train set than an aquarium. 

Only my 2 cents here but I wish for a more natural and less obvious style again. This is evolving away from the original idea.

--Stephan


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## Stickleback

I think the other problem I have with the above scapes is that they look so clinical. They look like farmed plants rather that a natural environment.

In nature you rarely see such clumps of the same species, there is almost always a diversity of plants in any given area.

I think this tank is a better example of diversity of flora:

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2010.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=3&id=13

The closeup photo labled AGA2 bears this out.

Shame it's ruined by the unbelievably unoriginal path of white sand.

The trouble is that if you knock up a scape, turn the CO2 on full, wait a couple of months then photograph it you are always going to be left with a shot of an intensive farm crop. Clean rocks is the biggest give away, rocks naturally acquire some dirt and algae, I see this as aesthetically pleasing.

S


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## GreenNeedle

Stephan said:
			
		

> I really wonder if some aquascapers are better off with a miniature train set than an aquarium.



Lol.  I've been slated heavily for describing some aquascapes as looking like model railway scenery.  Not naming people but there a couple of aquascapers that everybody seems to think are modern gods where every aquascape looks like it should have 00 gauge running through it.

However another thing I am slated for is my complete bewilderment of Amano's popularity and fan worship.  His photography is awesome, his plant growing and scaping abilities unquestioned, however I don't see any progression nor creativity nor invention in his scapes.  Many seem to be pretty similar to me but then everyone has their own 'eye' and 'taste' so some see what I don't just as they may not see what I see in other scapes.

Andy


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## Stephan

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> However another thing I am slated for is my complete bewilderment of Amano's popularity and fan worship.  His photography is awesome, his plant growing and scaping abilities unquestioned, however I don't see any progression nor creativity nor invention in his scapes.  Many seem to be pretty similar to me but then everyone has their own 'eye' and 'taste' so some see what I don't just as they may not see what I see in other scapes.



Andy, I see your point 100% but remember that _before_ Amano nobody had thought of this type of aquarium layout. He sparked off a whole new movement. I'm an old school Dutch style aquarists but I admire anything that is imaginative and beautiful. I'm not a worshipper of Amano as a person, just his work.

--Stephan


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## George Farmer

Great topic, John!  Some really good discussion points arising too.

On the whole I'd like to see more _diversity_ in aquascaping styles from individuals.  Stepping out of comfort zones can result in 'failure' but the lessons learnt can be implemented in future layouts.  This is key to developing one's own style I think.

Amano's recent 'big foreground textures' concept was interesting, but it's the kind of design that works best from a photo.  And this is where I think the aquascaping community has changed a lot in recent years.  DSLR is commonplace and folk are designing layouts with photography and contests more in mind, I feel.  I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, by the way. 

Aquascaping styles has evolved over the years, of course, with Amano and the IAPLC probably being the biggest influences for most pro-scapers, but I think they've reached a plateau in terms of ground-breaking concepts.  Capturing land-based scenes underwater will always be popular, and I have enjoyed doing it myself to a degree with recent iwagumi layouts, albeit less contrived, I think.

Personally I'd like to see more biotope-themed aquascapes, but doubt they'll really take off, as they are not so high impact for most tastes.  I'd also like to see more Dutch layouts - a real challenge!


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## GreenNeedle

Stephan said:
			
		

> Andy, I see your point 100% but remember that _before_ Amano nobody had thought of this type of aquarium layout. He sparked off a whole new movement. I'm an old school Dutch style aquarists but I admire anything that is imaginative and beautiful. I'm not a worshipper of Amano as a person, just his work.
> 
> --Stephan



Indeed.  I am not knocking Amano at all.  I think his work is great however let me use this 'anaolgy to explain what I mean:

I think Lada GaGa's music sounds like the same song over and over again, just with different words.  She also makes sure that as soon as one song starts to fall from the top the next is already released.  This keeps her in the spotlight and maintains the presence.

Others may disagree with this and say all the songs sound difference and the constant releases are because she is a prolific talented writer.

Same artist, same creations but 2 different opinions on it.

The only difference is I think Amanos' only song is good, and therfore any verison of it with different words is fine.  But i'll only be listening to that same song once and not the whole album repeating the same song   Lada Gaga won't be on the playlist. lol

I pretty much agree with George in that I think people should start thinking outside of the box a little and thinking for themselves.  Many of the scapes that people have called 'creative' over the past few years are not much more than a small progression on a current theme.  What I would like to see are new themes.  Not really gonna come from me though.  I am firmly in the scape to the location.  My scaping is more a case of decoration for the room and therefore it has to fit in, so I guess I limit myself there   Maybe why I redo my lounge every 2 years. lol

Andy


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## George Farmer

Clever analogy, but I don't really agree.

Amano has been leading the way for so many aquascapers for the last 30 years or so.  Over this time I think Amano's style has evolved quite significantly.  The rate of progress may have slowed, but it's still moving forward as far I can see by looking at recent Aqua Journals etc. and comparing them with older works. 

I can't say the same for most pop acts!



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> My scaping is more a case of decoration for the room and therefore it has to fit in...


This is an interesting point.  

For me it's important for the hardware itself to "fit-in" the room; a good article on this here - 

http://www.scapefu.com/2011/07/11/dont- ... gly-stick/

But I do not really consider the aquascape and it's influence on the surroundings.  In fact I think an aquascape that deliberately contrasts with its environment can be very effective and create higher impact, providing its encased in appropriate hardware.  I remember keeping a reef and planted tank next to one another and the room looked quite nice.

However, I do agree that a minimalist iwagumi in a country manor surrounded by antique furniture may look a little too odd!


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## Stephan

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I pretty much agree with George in that I think people should start thinking outside of the box a little and thinking for themselves. Many of the scapes that people have called 'creative' over the past few years are not much more than a small progression on a current theme. What I would like to see are new themes.


Here, here. Except, that's the hardest thing and it obviously depends on how radical you want to be. Are you after a whole new style or is there enough room to think outside of the box within the NA style? Then again -  aren't people doing that already with too many of us blundering about, misunderstanding the original idea? 

I have learned from friends in Holland that there has been some controversy in the Netherlands of late over adapting (modernizing) the rules for the Dutch "Gezelschapsaquarium". Interestingly, this old school style gives a lot less room for experimentation and sometimes, that's a good thing. Thinking outside of a narrow box is a lot harder than thinking outside of a box that has no defined boundaries. I tend to think that's the problem with NA style aquascaping sometimes - there is far too much leeway for personal bad taste.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> But I do not really consider the aquascape and it's influence on the surroundings.  In fact I think an aquascape that deliberately contrasts with its environment can be very effective and create higher impact, providing its encased in appropriate hardware.  I remember keeping a reef and planted tank next to one another and the room looked quite nice.



I have a NA style diskus tank and Dutch style tank 15 feet apart in my living room. No way I can adapt my interior design other than matching aquarium cabinets. Funnily enough most friends and visitors don't even notice there's a difference in both tanks. Unless I educate them, of course, but I'm getting tired of that. (IMHO, most non-aquarists wouldn't even recognize the difference in marine and freshwater at first glance). 
The only unifying factor in our household is my wife who has just agreed to put up with tank#3 in my study - bless her. The aquarium will sit behind me so it can act as a backdrop while I'm skyping/ichatting with people. How's that for a 007-style use for an aquarium? 

--Stephan


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## hotweldfire

Stephan said:
			
		

> The aquarium will sit behind me so it can act as a backdrop while I'm skyping/ichatting with people. How's that for a 007-style use for an aquarium?
> 
> --Stephan



I assume you're putting some sharks in there


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## flygja

This is a good discussion with many good points being brought up. None of them are right or wrong, just different opinions. I ask myself this question a lot when I'm planning a new scape too, and me being me, there isn't anything innovative that I can think of. 

Perhaps the next big thing will be driven by newly discovered species of plants or inventive ways of using them?

Actually the really innovative scapes these days involve floating islands and changeable background lighting   When I say innovative I mean something new and not necessarily something pleasing


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## clonitza

I'm not sure you can think outside the box if you don't spend your 90% of the time studying (photographing nature for example) and 10% for aquascaping not vice-verse. Most of the folks never leave home/city so their imagination is very limited to what they see in their surrounding gardens, over the internet or in magazines. There's why there are so few original scapes out there.

Mike


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## GreenNeedle

I'm not so sure about that.  I think you can see things on the internet or in a book and implement something.  It takes vision though and also courage.

Whilst people are all quite friendly on the net or face to face it is unlikely that all are so full of praise away from it and for an 'established' scaper to risk a very bold move out of line with what he/she has previously done is a brave move.

For them to push on and do something unfashionable or something very adventurous or something that hasn't been seen before is a huge huge risk.  I think this may be why many scapers stay within the known confines.  In a place they feel safe.

We don't want our peers saying 'X has lost the plot' or 'X's latest scape is not very good' because it's nice to hear good things from our peers.  After all they are the ones that 'know' (or think they know) the subject we are working in.  The worse thing is many peers will still compliment but criticise away from the public eye.  I think we know that anyway but is nice to be safe 

This is why I respect George so much because he does take risks and is brave.  He risks his reputation each time he moves out of previous comfort zones and it seems to me he will only do a few scapes in a style before taking a breath,  puffing the chest out and deciding to do something different not knowing how it will turn out.

It does take bravery though.  Remember Oliver Knott and his skulls and football figures within tanks?  A recognised scaper who everyone ridiculed (including me) for those tanks. lol.  however he seems to be doing nice stuff again now, albeit back in his comfort zone.

Another example is Globali.  His scape with the black quartz covered hardscaping and the coloured LED lighting backdrop is his vision.  Not many of us get it I don't think.  However it's a vision, out of the box, trying something that hasn't been done before and therefore whether the scape is like, or dismissed as worthless, credit must be given for the bravery to do something like that.

Who knows.  People think it isn't good now but maybe in 20 years we'll all be covering hardscape with quartz and using multi-coloured lighting behind our scapes   After all Van Gogh was dismissed as rubbish during his lifetime.  Every one would love to copy him now though 

Andy


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## roadmaster

I am alway's a bit dissapointed by the lack of fauna in such beautiful tanks as I have seen.
Perhaps fishes don't appeal to those who create such stunning layout's to the degree that plant's do but I would love to see more life in the aquariums. Otherwise,,to me,, they all look too contrived.(with the exception of obligatory dozen or two cardinals ,rasboras).
 Cannot fishes be considered as part of the design, or am I missing the accepted defintition of aquascaping?


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## ghostsword

It does take bravery to do something new. 

I was told recently by a very good aquascaper that if it would not make sense to enter a competition if it would not reach the top 100. It seems that not only bravery to try something new, but also to be seen to have failed. 

Where will aquascaping be going to, in the next 5, 10 or 15 years.?

It just depends who is at the forefront of aquascaping, either in europe or asia. ADA will still be around, so expect NA to remain, and iwagumi's etc, but I would think that biotopes will be seen on aquascapes more often. 

I do not like the trees underwater, or the white path into the distance, or unnatural scapes, but that is my style. 

And that is what it matters, one finding it's own style, and developing it into something that adapts and changes as one learns more and more. 

I do admire ADA and Amano's path. He innovated, developed and worked on his own ideas, and he has done it is such a way that those ideas and techniques are now part of aquascaping. You cannot talk of one without the other. 

CO2 for example, can you think about an aquascape without CO2? Can you think about an aquascape without having those amazing glassware? 

Aquascaping will always have the odd things going on, but as we should all now, nothing is odd in art. Globali's is a perfect example. I do not get the concept, cannot get my head around to it, but one cannot deny that there is art on it. 

The question should be where does aquascaping ends and art begins.


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## Eboeagles

Ooo I love a good debate!

Im pretty new to aquascpaping and even fish - I've only been emersed in it for about 6 months and I will try to do what I can with my experience which generally means copying things I have seen from various aquascapers with varying degrees of success.

As in all things in life true innovation is a very rare thing indeed, hence why Takeshi Amao is so revered. Its the same in all walks of life and these days its so so rare as nearly everything has been done! Someone mentioned Lady Gaga and whether her songs all sound the same to you or not is beside the point, as they are different but in her 'style'. She is however blatantly a Madonna copy cat for this generation, Oasis for the Beatles and on and on.

Obviously I like the music analogy used   although I would prefer to bring in the 7 stories rule, as its more obvious. If you think about anything there is in the world, its all about variations on a theme - the 7 story rule states that there have only ever been seven basic plots, and everything else is based around these,  now bring that to aquariums - I'll let you more experienced types answer how many there are but from my mind 7 is about right! 

Until there is some amazing discovery in nature or in technology we are all limited to the boundries that nature and technology have set. I have no problem with the forest or cliff scapes or scapes based on real landscapes as people are using their imagination to try and create something artistic and beautiful.  If its all about re creating nature then surely as George said everyone into this should be creating biotopes - however I imagine this is much harder as you are limited by the amount of plants etc available. As for recreating a UK biotope again I may be wrong but I've seen one or two of these but they seem very limiting as surely that would mean no HC, etc? and basically a lot of rock!

The future of aquascaping - for me is more affordable nano's leading to more and more people doing it - these amazing tree, path and cliff scapes may not be for the purists but are what will bring new faces into the scene, amazed at what can be achieved. The more people doing it, the more debate there will be and the likely hood that technology will be pushed further along with people's imaginations to create something new. Then either the pro's will have to innovate to stay ahead of the game or some upstart will come along and turn it all on its head!



			
				ghostsword said:
			
		

> The question should be where does aquascaping ends and art begins.



Perfect comment from Luis and I suspect it's impossible to answer!


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## RoughIt

I think the next big thing should be a scape planted with algae.
It should be quite a challenge for the top scapers as they don't
seem to be able to grow it as good as the rest of us.


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## robjarvisphotography

Due to the inherent low cost of the new "nano" aqauriums (as stated by eboeagles) it makes it more affordable to experiement. I believe this will encourage new styles and trends so technology will provide more and more varied aquascapes.
Our inate curiousity drives us forward in most aspects of life, and through trial and error as well as borrowed experience we learn new and exciting stuff.


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## Stephan

Do we really need something new? Let's face it - we now have two successful styles, the Dutch style and the NA style. Both have their own characteristics and their own aesthetics. Why are we already looking for something new? 
Dutch aquariums have been going since way back when and they have had their heyday. The only reason for the Dutch style not being flavor of the decade is - it came about long before we had the internet. And it has a reputation for being a style certain old farts wearing beige cardigans like to do.

On the other side, we have the NA style. It's new. it's internet. It has no rules and it's a brilliant new way for people to express themselves out of their living rooms, through the internet and social media and into the world. And it's even mobile. People pre-grow their plants and participate in contests where tanks are set up and judged in a matter of 48 hours. 
Even in ridiculously small vessels you can, by way of good photography, conjure up an image of wideness and lush nature. With photography - rather than home shows - being your channel, you can direct your lens away from the not-so-beautiful corners of your tank and instead focus on that brilliant spot with healthy growth. And of course small means short-lived. You re-scape often and explore new concepts.

Maybe we don't need something new and it's just a matter of waiting until this whole trend dies down. And perhaps we will get back to everybody perfecting their own scape so it will last months or even years before it needs to be re-done. I believe there is a lot to be explored yet in the NA style - Mike hit the nail on the head:



			
				clonitza said:
			
		

> I'm not sure you can think outside the box if you don't spend your 90% of the time studying (photographing nature for example) and 10% for aquascaping not vice-verse.



There are a billion themes you can find in nature without having to copy that path of white sand running at 1/3rd into the depth of your tank.

--Stephan


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## GreenNeedle

I was using Lady Gaga as a way of saying one person's view of 'Art' is different to another's.



> On the other side, we have the NA style. It's new. it's internet. It has no rules



Lol. Its a decade (or 2 old already)  Al styles can be on the internet and has no rules?  Set a scape up not following the 'golden rules of thirds, triangles etc' and see the replies   Set it up too symmetrically and you'll have people pulling their hair out in horror 

You will get loads of replies detailing that things are positioned incorrectly and you defo won't rank highly in the IAPLC. lol

Many of those guys in the Far East actually draw or tape lines all over the front glass so they can see if they are 'conforming' while they scape the tank   Most definitely rules.

I think people are a little confused these days.  Like music where hip hop, soul, reggae/ragga and even ballads are classed as R&B (which is actually Rhythm[n] and blues.)  People categorise things as they want to these days whether it is actually in that category or not.

If a Rock band does an old swing number it is classed as rock even if they do it in the swing and not rock style. lol

In the same way I see a lot of scapes that I wouldn't call nature but are classed as nature.  maybe sometimes by the owner so that it can still be favourable?  I have no idea.

Or maybe Nature has progressed a little to encompass absolutely everything that could be perceived as a landscape.

If the latter then there will never be a new style because it will always fall into the scope of NA unless it physically does not resemble a landscape 

Maybe thats the big plan......The survival technique......If a new style starts it is quickly swallowed up as NA   . lol

Doesn't really matter what you call the styles though.  What is key is personality.  There will be another Takashi Amano eventually that brings something totally new and then there will lots more people wanting to emulate that.

I think there's loads more to experiment with and trial etc and thats the beauty.  However I think if we all have to conform to rules of proportions and triangles then we are very limited.

Andy


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## ghostsword

*Let's talk aquascaping "the future"*

All valid points. 

Just remember that the rules of thirds, perception, asymmetrical, etc, were not created by Amano or the NA followers. 

What some call rules that limit us is actually visible in nature, on architecture, even on literature. It has been going on since the very beginning. 

I don't believe that much will change from now on, with the Internet, social media and how easily knowledge is spread, the followers will do what they do best, they will follow. 

There will be new techniques coming on, but as was said they may be swallowed by NA.

There are three new ways to Aquascape: 
- ripariums
- on wood (as done on ukaps by at least two members), Graeme's being the most amazing I've seen
- incorporating bonsai into the scape, as Filipe Oliveira did last year I believe

Most of the other scapes are a remake of old classics. There are jungles, iwagumis, Dutch and NA.  small variations, that's all, but basically the same.

Obviously there are few people ahead of the pack, but they do this do a living, scape often and would not be afraid of putting naff stuff out there, those are the ones that will come with something amazing once in a while.






.


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## clonitza

Speaking of inspiration. For my next project I've chosen these ones:

Detail:










Layout (view from above):




Photos taken last weekend.

Have a nice day,
Mike


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## ghostsword

*Let's talk aquascaping "the future"*

Wow, last picture is amazing, great inspiration. 


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## GreenNeedle

They are old rules Luis however it is NA that pushes them in this hobby.

Dutch tanks don't use rules of thirds or triangles.  they can be very symmetrical.  Jungles can be whichever way you design them however I would say Most jungles are either enveloped into NA because they are landscape jungle looking and therefore landscape = NA or they are purely planted tanks.  I don't think 'jungle' is really a style of it's own.  Might sound strange coming from me when I champion the 'jungle' style so often however personally I think Jungle is just a side description meaning that the style chose has been given a little freedom to grow more.  

I freely admit my 'jungle scapes' are pretty much NA scapes with less pampering/pruning and more freedom.

So whilst the rules have always been there and artists have always used those rules it is only NA/Iwagumi that particularly 'enforces' them.  Not by saying you must use them but by the 'peer pressure' to conform if something is not in line with the rules.

I personally love it when a scape is symmetrical.  I like island scapes when they are slapped dead centre of the tank. Like the one that use the red plants to immitate a fire.  Breaks the rules and therefore has it's own impact.

Not that I am a fan really of Warhol nor many of the modern artists that think an unmade bed or loads of grains of rice in a room is Art but they do not conform to any of these rules.

That is the groundbreaker.  While you use the rules no matter how old they are then you limit yourself immediately.  If you clear yourself of all limits then you can truly create something new.

Whilst ther eis creativity within the NA style I find it is a bit to rigid and people think about the 'framework' of lines, triangles, thirds etc in the planning.  They don't envisage their plan and implement it.  They already have in their mind the framework' and then they fit their scape into this framework.

I tend to just put a scape together.  Sometimes the rules are adhered to, sometimes they aren't.  If the are then it is purely accidental.  However I am not overly concerned about not fitting in as long as the tank that I see every day si to my liking I don't think it matters if it 'measures up' to any style or ratio or any confinement.

Andy


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## ghostsword

*Let's talk aquascaping "the future"*

Well said Andy.

It is the peer pressure to conform that stifles the creativity of many.

You are right in saying that even before one starts to plant most already have the thirds, lines and triangles mapped out. I fell on that trap as well. 

One day I looked at the tank and thought, who the hell I am scapping this for? 

The same with the Ada ferts, many people use them, just because others do the same! 

Freedom is needed. 


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I'll start straight away by saying I don't understand aquascaping, aquascaping competitions or know much about design or photography, but I like Mike's Romanian Saxifrage,_ Minuartia_ and Thyme inspiration. 

I also whole-heartedly agree with Stickleback's: 





> I personally would like to see more wild and natural looking scapes. The above examples are beautiful but have an air of the formal garden about them. They are more cut flowers in a vase than wild plants. If we want to do something different we would do well taking British woodland as inspiration rather than just copying the Japanese. We need Capability Brown back.


How about "the Garden House" as an inspiration? it has design elements, and also more naturalistic areas. 

<http://www.thegardenhouse.org.uk/explore-garden/photo-gallery/>?






cheers Darrel


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## ghostsword

*Let's talk aquascaping "the future"*

I am now looking to do just biotopes, or a very close representation of how a section of nature looks like. I I document it, keep it for three to six month I will be able to learn from it and in turn teach my kids how a section of the world would look like.

As I speak Spanish and Portuguese most of south America is covered as I will be able to contact local conservation associations and get hard data of how the local river looks like.

Once the kids are bigger I will be able to volunteer for up to three months to work on a conservation charity and learn by direct contact.

But this is what I like, and I am no criticizing others for wanting something else.




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## Stephan

dw1305 said:
			
		

> How about "the Garden House" as an inspiration? it has design elements, and also more naturalistic areas.



Interesting. The photo you posted shows a lot of flowers - a resource we do not have in aquascapes. We have colour, but only shades of green, red and brown. We also have texture, habit and size. Actually, this scene would probably lend itself very well to being used as an inspiration in a Dutch style tank.

It also shows another aspect I have been thinking about a lot recently: The fading of colours and fuzzying of textures in the far distance. I think there is a lot to be explored by using fine plants with light greens in the background, like Myriophyllum or similar. You probably need a very deep tank to make this work in the living room, though. 

--Stephan


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## ghostsword

*Let's talk aquascaping "the future"*

Of course you can have flowers on a Aquascape.  emersed plants have flowers!  


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## robjarvisphotography

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## Garuf

Sorry, what?
You've posted this picture on a few threads now I've noticed and not to be rude but I don't get how an orchid next to a tank with a mid-level in terms of quality aquascape is incorporating bonsai, or flowers in a context we would recognise as an aquascape? I mean, feel free to enlighten me but I simply do not see what you're getting at.


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## Johnny Ciotti

Hey guys, it appears that the discussion is going well, I'll read through it all and will contribute soon. I've had some recent medical issues and have not had the time to get back on UKAPS.


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## Stephan

What strikes me is that in garden design we have numerous styles and directions whereas in aquarium design we only really have two. (Ok, I regress - there are a few more but for the sake of the argument, let's call it two: NA and Dutch).
I have been wondering why that is and I come to the conclusion that it is because an aquarium does not have the necessity to function practically. In other words: Because an aquarium is there for sheer pleasure.

Landscape design has to deal with various aspects of utility and whilst that is a real constraint for any designer, it is at the same time a great guide and, indeed, justification for a design. We don't have that in an aquarium and therefore, creating something (new) is all the harder. People participating in this thread have tried to come up with new ideas but it has been quiet for some time now. To me, that goes to show how hard it is to come up with something so revolutionary new and exciting as Amano has managed to.

I have asked this before and I ask again: Do we need something new already? Are we starting to get bored by repeating variations of the same theme? It seems so. Earlier in this thread I said that I thought that many of the new interpretations were misunderstandings and some people were better off with miniature train sets. While it is not up to me to decide what is aesthetically sound and what is not, it shows that there is a great hunger for something new and cool and the old ways of the Nature Aquarium are getting diversified to an extent where the whole thing becomes far removed from the original idea. Which originally was to represent a snapshot of nature in a poetic, not biological way.

Personally, I think my next door neighbour's japanese garden is a real turnoff because it is badly executed and full of blatant truisms. (Apart from that - it doesn't belong in a provincial German backwater but then again, if it was a great piece of art, why not). The recent trend to copy terrestrial landscapes such as trees, paths and even waterfalls under water is the aquarium counterpart to that. And it documents the helplessness of people on a mission to find something new and exciting. But why do we need that? In the Netherlands, people have for almost a hundred years designed the most beautiful aquariums and rather than looking for something new, they are further developing the style. With new plants emerging rapidly, the Dutch aquarium is a very pure form of aquatic gardening: The focus is on combining plants. IMHO, this is a very difficult discipline which will take me a lifetime to get the hang of.

One more thing about the Dutch aquarium style: They have rules. And this brings me back to what I said earlier: Since aquaria don't have to function like a landscaped plot, everything is allowed: Trees, treasure chests, skulls... you get my drift. So rather than trying to launch a new trend maybe we need to classify the old trends. In NA there could be Biotope, Amano Old School, Creative (Waterfalls are so 2010 - the next big thing will be campfires), Iwagumi (We already have that) and so forth. If we start to apply rules in the same sense that the Dutch do, then we might get somewhere without having to go looking for something new.

My 2 Euro-cents.

--Stephan


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## George Farmer

Brilliant post.  Thanks, Stephan.


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## NeilW

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Brilliant post.  Thanks, Stephan.


Agreed   

I especially like this;


			
				Stephan said:
			
		

> ...Which originally was to represent a snapshot of nature in a poetic, not biological way.


I noticed that looking through Amano's older books theres a lot of accompanying text involved that describes his own personal experiences and inspiraions. These aquascapes are almost like 'impressions' or 'memories' of nature. 

I think this working process leaves much more scope for the development of the NA style as everyones 'impression' of nature would be different based on their own experience and where they are based geographically.


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## GreenNeedle

I don't think we 'need' or are 'looking' for anything new.  I don't try and do new things TBH.  I do see new things though.

Like all traditional Artists or music.  there doesn't 'need' to be something new.  However every now and again something just happens and its a big bang.

There didn't need to be NA.  Dutch and older methods were fine, however NA comes along and......bang.

So personally I don't think a new style is needed however I do feel NA is starting to have run its course and we either continue with the more traditional styles albeit with more focus on the way we light the tank and background or the way we setup the style.  namely forget the ever increasing overly crafted 'trainset style' or we try and do something totally different.

There are scapers who are doing new things within the NA traditional framework without resorting to such detailed modelling styles.  There are others already who have taken their influence from the NA and translated it into something new.  You just need to watch and see.  The problem there being that NA style is enveloping anything that it can.  Not Amano but others who will say everything that is landscape based is NA.

So something will happen whether we need it or not.  And it will either be a VHS moment or a Betamx moment.  namely it will be a big bang or a flash in the pan.

Andy


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## plantbrain

Stephan said:
			
		

> What strikes me is that in garden design we have numerous styles and directions whereas in aquarium design we only really have two. (Ok, I regress - there are a few more but for the sake of the argument, let's call it two: NA and Dutch).
> I have been wondering why that is and I come to the conclusion that it is because an aquarium does not have the necessity to function practically. In other words: Because an aquarium is there for sheer pleasure.
> 
> Landscape design has to deal with various aspects of utility and whilst that is a real constraint for any designer, it is at the same time a great guide and, indeed, justification for a design. We don't have that in an aquarium and therefore, creating something (new) is all the harder. People participating in this thread have tried to come up with new ideas but it has been quiet for some time now. To me, that goes to show how hard it is to come up with something so revolutionary new and exciting as Amano has managed to.
> 
> I have asked this before and I ask again: Do we need something new already? Are we starting to get bored by repeating variations of the same theme? It seems so. Earlier in this thread I said that I thought that many of the new interpretations were misunderstandings and some people were better off with miniature train sets. While it is not up to me to decide what is aesthetically sound and what is not, it shows that there is a great hunger for something new and cool and the old ways of the Nature Aquarium are getting diversified to an extent where the whole thing becomes far removed from the original idea. Which originally was to represent a snapshot of nature in a poetic, not biological way.
> 
> Personally, I think my next door neighbour's japanese garden is a real turnoff because it is badly executed and full of blatant truisms. (Apart from that - it doesn't belong in a provincial German backwater but then again, if it was a great piece of art, why not). The recent trend to copy terrestrial landscapes such as trees, paths and even waterfalls under water is the aquarium counterpart to that. And it documents the helplessness of people on a mission to find something new and exciting. But why do we need that? In the Netherlands, people have for almost a hundred years designed the most beautiful aquariums and rather than looking for something new, they are further developing the style. With new plants emerging rapidly, the Dutch aquarium is a very pure form of aquatic gardening: The focus is on combining plants. IMHO, this is a very difficult discipline which will take me a lifetime to get the hang of.
> 
> One more thing about the Dutch aquarium style: They have rules. And this brings me back to what I said earlier: Since aquaria don't have to function like a landscaped plot, everything is allowed: Trees, treasure chests, skulls... you get my drift. So rather than trying to launch a new trend maybe we need to classify the old trends. In NA there could be Biotope, Amano Old School, Creative (Waterfalls are so 2010 - the next big thing will be campfires), Iwagumi (We already have that) and so forth. If we start to apply rules in the same sense that the Dutch do, then we might get somewhere without having to go looking for something new.
> 
> My 2 Euro-cents.
> 
> --Stephan



Excellent commentary Stephan.

I think folks pander to Amano and ADA, eg, "Fan boys", the same may be stated for nice Dutch style scapes.
Few really want to challenge them or go beyond and take risk.

I set up aquariums for myself, no one else, not Amano, ADA etc..............I also consider the location in my house. I never place them in a my bedroom for example, that is where I sleep, not watch fish.

I have not entered a single competition ever. I likely never shall either.  For myself, it's an intenal issue, a judgement of myself and desires. I do not disagree with competitions. They can help improve aquarist ability and draw new people into the hobby.

Same can be said for using CO2 gas however...........

Biotopes are tough, because it is often VERY hard to get plants, wood, sediments and fish from one single location.
I think more hobbyists should travel and see the locations where aquatic submersed plants exists and then see about modeling those locations. Landscapes are nice, and Japanese landscaping is where Amano takes his art from and placed it in the aquarium, all one has to do is pick up some Japanese gardening books and suddenly you see exactly where the ideas and designs come from.

The designs are not novel, but the application is/was when Amano did this and then he ran with it. A pretty pic sells in ANY language also. 

I've always had a more simple practical approach to design, I suppose because I have an engineering bent. I ask questions" What is it that I want to see when I look into this space? Do I wish to see all the way through to back of the glass? How about maintenance and care? Do I want to sell the plants/livestock and have the hobby pay for itself? How can I incorporate these into the design? What interesting scape material do I have available? Where should I place the aquarium and what size should it be? What external designs should I use if I wish to garden often? Do I want to design something someone else has already done or something new?"

There are many good questions aquarist should ask themselves.
Many see the competition pics and feel inadequate..........they feel they cannot do things like that. This is unfortunate. I do not suggest that route, rather, what they want, their goals, and if that happens to win a competition? Great.

 I think folks should REALLY consider the impact their comments have on newbies. Snooty attitudes really irritate newbies. Heck, me too. An aquarist who has achieved their goal is a happy aquarist, so we should help others/newbies achieve those goals. Design is part of it, but they need to have enough horticultural skills to get the design fully executed as well. 

This leaves things open and less rigid than an Academy Style school approach. I like risk, life without them is not a life worthwhile to me. Also, simply try and sit and think if you like the rick or wood or plant in that spot in the tank........

Much of this is more simple and less complex than we often times suggest.


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## clonitza

A couple of photos as an inspiration for your mountain-iwagumi scapes:












Sadly this is the third time I go there and no clear sky, hopefully next time ... 
Collected some nice wood from there too.

Mike


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## Stephan

Lovely! Those outcrops are very rounded, not as sharp as most of the usual stuff. Where were those pics taken?

(P.S: I hope your images will not spark a new "submersed mist" trend now, Mike! I am sure someone will figure out how it can be done, though...)


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## clonitza

Stephan .. well it can be done without special techniques .. do the aquascape looking sideways in a long tank, light the front side and let the other in the shade and voila .. misty  (Tom has a nice big tank ideal for this but he's too concentrated with farming  )

Glad you like them, the photos are made in the Ciucas mountains / Romania. I'll go there again for sure.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Mark Evans

Quality pics clonitza!


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## Aquadream

Impressive tread guys.
I see the discussion goes a lot about new  in the aquascaping. It is good to look for the new. It keeps on going development and progress. The trouble is that in order to move to something new a definition is required for what is now. As some guys mentioned here the Dutch style is governed by some rules. I believe the NA should be too. Other wise what ever anyone can do as new would be easily qualified as look a like to some older design, which is basically a dead end and of course a way to ignore some and glorify others intentionally.
Needless to say that creativity will be pushed in a relatively narrow direction – winning contests. With other words what ever the judges say is best.
That is why there are only two major styles Dutch and NA. Only one of them have rules. The other is anything goes.
As far as I can see the objective is moving from aquatic plants layout to; Sci-Fi layout, super cool and impossible to find in nature what ever layout, or a huge tree root with a bit of green here and there you name it.
I see more and more wow aquascapes winning and less and less plant layouts.
It would appear that the time for no plant layouts is not that far. All seems to be moving to super cool hard scape now.
The aquascaping contests are loosing the message for nature and are becoming more and more nature look a like building business and photography not lasting and durable in time aquariums.

I have a lot of respect for the Dutch style, because it is based on the ability of the aquarists to grow plants, not to the availability of huge sums of money that can buy the best hard scape materials, photo cameras and all the cool dude toys and win contests that way.

I do not mind the wow works, but I believe more attention should be paid to what does the aquarist know about aquatic life and how much he can develop that in aquarium.


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## Mark Evans

Aquadream said:
			
		

> That is why there are only two major styles Dutch and NA. Only one of them have rules. The other is anything goes.



Really?...to me, they both have rules.


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## Stephan

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Really?...to me, they both have rules.



Hey Mark, I think Aquadream was referring to some posts made earlier in this thread. He's not wrong - "rules" in Dutch Aquarium judging are much stricter and less open to personal taste than what is true for Nature Aquascaping these days. I think what Aquadream calls "Wow Aquascapes" are particularly extreme layouts people submit to create something new (and they tend to be successful in contests). I will be visiting three award winning aquarists in Holland next weekend and I will ask them about how they prepare their aquariums for judging. I'll try and find the time to post some answers in this thread.

--Stephan


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## fishfingers

I belive that amano`s origanal style has been superseded by the winners of his own compition, and the epic scaled down version`s of real life clif face`s and forists are in themselve`s a new style altogther than the origanal idea they are all still called nature aquarium because they are in his compition.


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## Aquadream

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Aquadream said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is why there are only two major styles Dutch and NA. Only one of them have rules. The other is anything goes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?...to me, they both have rules.
Click to expand...

Well then. The name of IAPLC stands for International Aquatic Plant Layout Contests, right? Just see how many of the leading works are actually about plant layouts or about growing plants and developing aquatic life. That observation should give a good idea of what that contest is about. Look at #1 in 2011. It is bunch of weird looking rocks, impossible to stand in any nature as they are in the tank and with very little amount of plants around.
#1 from 2010 was with a lot of plants, very good scape, but also with a lot of BBA on all of the woods, clearly visible on HD photo.
All I am trying to say here is that the IAPLC rules are gibberish, because the final grading does not conform to them.
How is that IAPLC does pronounce rules for that competition, but in the end it all comes down to the judges personal opinion. That is what I read in the IAPLC web site.

In the Dutch competitions non of ADA's grading works. Hell, those guys will even pull out some of your plants to see if they were really grown in your scape and how did actually that happened. Now that is what I call rules.

Having said all of the above I will get back to the new.
The Dutch competitions will come up eventually with something new sooner or later, because they have clear criteria to define what is new and what is not.

IAPLC and other look a like contests will continue to be free land "artistry" gatherings, because there is no way to differentiate the new from the old there. Just a huge pile of nice stuff created for the sole purpose of winning the big prize..... And please I ask kindly that no one gives me the hollow crap; But I am participating for the fun and so on....
I do not buy this talk.

Congrats for your #95 this year.    You seem to be a very good photographer. I have Canon 600D and perhaps can get some advice from you on what to do with it.  :?


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## clonitza

@Aquadream I'll try an excerpt to think about it:

[...]
'There you are!' exclaimed my hostess triumphantly. 'That's just it. That's what I mean. *One can't explain these things. One must feel. One must not look for details, one must get an impression, an emotion.*
[...]

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/Pica ... review_pdf


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## clonitza

Scaping goodies ... same location as the last pictures.



Arctostaphylos uva-ursi (and others) resembles a bit with manzanita, think they are the same family ... collected some for a future scape, you have it also in UK.

Mike


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## niru

Moderators!!!

Please make this a sticky thread.....

I love coming back to read and re-read and re-re-read.....

niru


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> Arctostaphylos uva-ursi


 It is "Bearberry", but it is an uncommon plant in the UK, unless you live on the limestones in the N. of Scotland. I've only seen it in Western Ireland (Burren), but it grows almost prostrate there.

These plants are all members of the Ericaceae, the commonest ones in the UK would be the Heathers, _Erica cinerea_, _E. tetralix_ and _Calluna vulgaris_, Billberry (_Vaccinium myrtillus_) and the introduced but widespread "wild" Rhododendron _R.ponticum_. I'd keep away from Rhododendron, but the others should be all right.

A few Heathers are common in gardens, including ones like the winter flowering heathers _E. herbacea_, which will grow on limy soil (most of the rest won't). There are a couple of "Tree heaths" (_Erica lusitanica, E. erigena & E. vagans_ bit smaller) at work, I'll have a look and see what I can find.

cheers Darrel


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## plantbrain

Stephan said:
			
		

> Mark Evans said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?...to me, they both have rules.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Mark, I think Aquadream was referring to some posts made earlier in this thread. He's not wrong - "rules" in Dutch Aquarium judging are much stricter and less open to personal taste than what is true for Nature Aquascaping these days. I think what Aquadream calls "Wow Aquascapes" are particularly extreme layouts people submit to create something new (and they tend to be successful in contests). I will be visiting three award winning aquarists in Holland next weekend and I will ask them about how they prepare their aquariums for judging. I'll try and find the time to post some answers in this thread.
> 
> --Stephan
Click to expand...


Yes, they are very strict, but many change things the day or the visit to make up and score higher.

For example, lower the nutrients in the water= the higher your score will be. 
So a nice rich EI dosed tank full of lush well growing plants would score poorly, unless I "cheated" and did a couple of massive water changes the day they where to stop by. A day or so of no macros etc would be fine..........

Still, this is run by hobbyists, not a company, so there's little promotion outside NR. We cannot have a committee to come and judge people's tanks all over the world. A company with a professional aquarium photographer, perhaps the best freshwater photographer in this generation...........with the super nice pics.........he does not need to speak the language....these sell ice machines to Eskimo.

So good pics.......lots of them, a company promoting their style.....a bunch of westerners who have few clues about the essence of Japanese gardens.........or having seen many.........or fall into the myths and baloney surrounding them. The Dutch? they have a long history as well, but both styles are different in their goals and criteria.

Much like bonsai, after the natural ones where removed, they started to try and make natural looking ones from cultivated trees. How to make it look natural without being cultivate is not a simple thing to teach. This is in essence what Nature style tries to impart.

They(ADA) seem to leave a massive swath for anything goes, rather than focusing strongly on the terrestrial approaches that this style originally came from, those are traditional and very old styles with a long history.

Still, the bottom line is: if it looks good, it is good.

I use Japanese Sukiya for my home, but often go towards the Dutch style for aquariums, but I have both styles in my aquariums.


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## ghostsword

*Let's talk aquascaping "the future"*

I believe that keeping Bonsai,Japanese rock gardens and ADA style is very similar.

I have visited a large bonsai retailer in Cape Town, a private house with a large garden with lots and lots of bonsai, rock placements and moss on trays and if definitely reminded me of iwagumis and NA styles. 




.


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