# 2000L tank EI Dosing with drip water change



## Filip Krupa (7 Apr 2018)

Hello Fine Underwater Gardeners,

I am an ambitious noob starting a 2000L high tech planted tank.
Here is my issue, (well one of them!) I am reading up on EI dosing, and planning to implement it, however I would like to avoid having to do a 50% weekly water change in one go! (1000L PITA)

Would it work, if I continuously dripped out a sizable portion of the water every day? 10%? 20%?

If so, would I have to adjust the EI dose? I.e. make it less or more than standard dose for a 2000L aquarium.

Any advice appreciated!

Filip


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## Angus (7 Apr 2018)

Probably would be best making a tailored dosing regime rather than doing straight EI? i wouldn't know where to start with 2000L myself though! sounds like an epic project, make sure to post it here please.


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## Filip Krupa (7 Apr 2018)

Tailored? I feel way too stupid for that... but that's never stopped me before!

I am hoping to put a proper journal together at some point.
For now, I built the stand, sump and am in the process of buying cut acrylic for the DT.


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## Angus (7 Apr 2018)

Wow that sump is insane in itself....


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## wolfewill (7 Apr 2018)

Are you going to dose CO2? And if so how?


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## Tim Harrison (7 Apr 2018)

You're certainly not doing things by halves. This journal may help. James had an automated water changing and fertz dosing system https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/james3200s-6-5x2x2-planted-tank-update-26-06-09.571/


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## Edvet (8 Apr 2018)

I suppose you have a faucet and drainage to the sewer in place?
My large tank has a sump wich has a compartiment which overflows into the sewer. I have a 90 lit/day RO unit hanging over it, i can choose to use the RO water or both the RO water and the waste water to be added to the tank. Once  in a while i will flush the whole system with just regular water from the garden hose. I will run the wayer for a few hours doing a "big waterchange" the temperature will drop but the fish never mind.
I add EI salts ( 1 teaspoon PO4, 3 teaspoons NO3 and 1 teaspoon MG) three times a week and  micro's (half a teaspoon CSM B) twice a week. I figure having the continuous waterchange works as the 50% weekly waterchange.


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

wolfewill said:


> Are you going to dose CO2? And if so how?



Yes, pressurised via reactor.


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Edvet said:


> I suppose you have a faucet and drainage to the sewer in place?
> My large tank has a sump wich has a compartiment which overflows into the sewer. I have a 90 lit/day RO unit hanging over it, i can choose to use the RO water or both the RO water and the waste water to be added to the tank. Once  in a while i will flush the whole system with just regular water from the garden hose. I will run the wayer for a few hours doing a "big waterchange" the temperature will drop but the fish never mind.
> I add EI salts ( 1 teaspoon PO4, 3 teaspoons NO3 and 1 teaspoon MG) three times a week and  micro's (half a teaspoon CSM B) twice a week. I figure having the continuous waterchange works as the 50% weekly waterchange.




You suppose correct. I've put the plumbing in during house refurb, dreaming ahead!
It works similar to yours, sump overflows out of the return pump compartament.

Just checked out some of your tank pictures. Impressive...
Glad to hear salts + drip water change can work!


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## foxfish (8 Apr 2018)

Great project, good luck with all the planning.
I would think a motorised reactor useing a separate venturi pump to spin the water would work well.
Everything will be in giant scale... great fun to build...


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

foxfish said:


> Great project, good luck with all the planning.
> I would think a motorised reactor useing a separate venturi pump to spin the water would work well.
> Everything will be in giant scale... great fun to build...



Thanks Foxfish.
Worst case scenario, I will have 2000L of water on the floor. But thats no biggie, I will just open my patio door and it will all flow out! 

It's a lot of fun already, buying pond equipment for an aquarium...

Looking forward to needing diving goggles to trim the plants too!


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## Zeus. (8 Apr 2018)

I did a 500l high tech tank as my first Scape so when I read your plans I thought OMG.
That monster is going to use some CO2 and judging by the size of the base maintiance is going to be a nightmare. 
Lucking forward to your journal.

May be worth sticking a PLC in there to control it all, they do give a great level of control.


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## foxfish (8 Apr 2018)

I have worked on a few big tanks, the biggest one that I actually built, was a 2000 gallon commercial  display tank.
Another one was a private 800 gallon reef tank. In both instances the tanks were built in situ useing steel & concrete with acrylic front and side viewing.
What are your tanks planed dimensions & glass thickness?


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Zeus. said:


> I did a 500l high tech tank as my first Scape so when I read your plans I thought OMG.
> That monster is going to use some CO2 and judging by the size of the base maintiance is going to be a nightmare.
> Lucking forward to your journal.
> 
> May be worth sticking a PLC in there to control it all, they do give a great level of control.



Lol. I relish the challenge! 
Gotta do something for the 12 months Ive given up drinking for!!!

I am trying to set everything up so that it requires as little daily attention as possible (hence drip water change system, fert dosing pumps, everything on smart plugs + app), so I can focus on monitoring and tweaking.

We are normally VERY frugal, so this is a "hard work treat" for us. If running costs become an issue, we will go low tech or large fish (maybe a viv with poison dart frogs??? Im salivating already).
But for now, we want a lush underwater garden. I dabbled with plants and diy Co2 on my 400L sumped (now) oscar tank, and the plants looked delicious, despite my crap fert regime, poor soil, and cheap DIY GU10 light fixture.

Thanks for the tip about PLC, perhaps I can avoid it with the use of my smart plugs.


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

foxfish said:


> I have worked on a few big tanks, the biggest one that I actually built, was a 2000 gallon commercial  display tank.
> Another one was a private 800 gallon reef tank. In both instances the tanks were built in situ useing steel & concrete with acrylic front and side viewing.
> What are your tanks planed dimensions & glass thickness?



Thats big...
Mine will be 1700x1700x750mm tall (water up to aprox 700mm). Acrylic, 12mm base, 25mm walls, 12mm braced top.
Is that about right?


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## Zeus. (8 Apr 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> water up to aprox 700mm



Thats deep, mine has 500mm water depth, tank is 600mm deep and with hindsight I wish I had only done it with 400mm water depth, as keeping the carpet going is hard with deep water getting the light right is hard eg carpet struggles so up the lights, CO2 consumption increases with the higher light then the CO2 levels fluctuate then the taller plants melt with the higher light and fluctuating CO2 levels. 

Have a braced tank myself and getting reach to the substrate is tricky, hood really needs to be off, how your going to reach the centre of tank substrate level if your 7 foot tall you would still struggle IMO.

I use 6.5Kg of CO2 a month with a high [CO2] light yellow to clear on the Drop Checker (DC)



Filip Krupa said:


> smart plugs.



Weighed up that option when I did mine and they sound good but they can be hit and miss with there connections. PLC can be used to control your dosing pumps, auto topup, dim lights and temp control even pH, but not cheap. But once setup easy to change settings Via PC or smartphone once programmed via 'LOGO! softcomfort'.  Plus we do have a DIY Wizard 'Ian_m' on the forum helped me loads with mine


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Thanks Zeus, all good points/questions!
I will get 15kg co2 tanks delivered, we will see how much it will gobble up each month. I will defo consider a PLC if the plugs get on my nerves, thanks for the heads up.

Getting to the middle of the tank will be fun.(I am not planning a hood). Either, long ass tweezers, diving goggles, and a wet face. Or I will literally get into middle of the tank once a week (displaced water will overflow down the sewer, then get top up once Im out). I could also lower the water level to say 400mm, and have 300mm for emersed growth? Still a pain to acces the middle, but perhaps a little easier?

Good point on carpeting plants, I am hoping to get something not too hard to keep (dwarf vallis any good?) Other than that, it will be a matter of moving around lights, co2 and fert levels until i find a semblance of a balance.


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## Zeus. (8 Apr 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> I am hoping to get something not too hard to keep (dwarf vallis any good?)



*Unique foreground-size vallis* may be just what your tank needs if planning carpet, frothhelmet good seller too have purchased off him several times 

I would say dont do a carpet with a tank so deep, but thats just my opinion


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## Edvet (8 Apr 2018)

Agreed maintaining plants is a chore in tanks this size, i can't reach the plants in the back of my tank without 1) either standing in my tank or 2) using swimgoggles and going underwater, On the other side you can get swordplants to grow out to their full size


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Edvet said:


> Agreed maintaining plants is a chore in tanks this size, i can't reach the plants in the back of my tank without 1) either standing in my tank or 2) using swimgoggles and going underwater, On the other side you can get swordplants to grow out to their full size





What a problem to have! Can't wait!
Note to self: get swordplants.


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## Edvet (8 Apr 2018)

36808785_00004757[/url] by Ed Prust, on Flickr[/IMG]


36808785_00004757 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Thats stunning Edvet! Magazine cover stuff


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## ian_m (8 Apr 2018)

With the plc solution as well as controlling lights, CO2, wavemakers, fertz dosing you could also get it to do the water emptying. Either by opening the inlet valve for say 10 minutes each day letting waste water overflow or pump out for 10 minutes then top up for 10 minutes, easy peasy in a plc. 

Also could include some element of safety in that if no water was exiting overflow ie blocked by plants or water level got too high could sound and alarm, run a drain pump do lots of things as much as you can imagine. Could put water leak sensor as well to detect overflows.

Zeus with his tank replaced simple smart switches with a PLC performing quite clever stuff all in order to make operation and maintenance simple. My plc is now in holiday mode, reduced light level, reduced light times, reduced co2, reduced ferts so tank runs slowly whilst I am away. Easy did water, tidy up, switch to holiday mode. Done.

Something to seriously consider to make things easier.


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## wolfewill (8 Apr 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> Yes, pressurised via reactor.



What size is the reactor or reactors? And how many inline diffusers are you going to use? I have a 330 g tank with two reactors in series (each ~24 inches long by 4 inches in diameter), with four inline diffusers ahead of that. I also have a devoted Sicce 5.0 pump to run it..... and this is maxed out to achieve the pH drop I need and the flow to distribute it all throughout the tank.


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## ian_m (8 Apr 2018)

Also you MUST read Zeus's journal for his 500litre tank, before embarking on such a monster tank.

I think he must be about the only person on this forum who has succeeded in getting a large volume (500 litre) high tech, high light planted tank successfully up and running first time. A lot of people have large tanks, but not CO2 injected. He has recorded many mistakes he made, spending wasted, ideas that sound good but were in fact bad, but learnt from mistakes and worked round them. Designed in many things to keep it simple stupid (KISS) and make working with the tank easier and simple. Well thought out and implemented.

It clearly wasn't cheap (500 litre will not be cheap), cost a lot of time, a lot if time and a lot of time & money and a few changes of underwear but I think the result shows what can be achieved. Even more amazing is the tank is a room divider so can't hide any crappyness at back of tank, all is visible in view.


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## Zeus. (8 Apr 2018)

ian_m said:


> Also you MUST read Zeus's journal for his 500litre tank, before embarking on such a monster tank.
> 
> I think he must be about the only person on this forum who has succeeded in getting a large volume (500 litre) high tech, high light planted tank successfully up and running first time. A lot of people have large tanks, but not CO2 injected. He has recorded many mistakes he made, spending wasted, ideas that sound good but were in fact bad, but learnt from mistakes and worked round them. Designed in many things to keep it simple stupid (KISS) and make working with the tank easier and simple. Well thought out and implemented.
> 
> It clearly wasn't cheap (500 litre will not be cheap), cost a lot of time, a lot if time and a lot of time & money and a few changes of underwear but I think the result shows what can be achieved. Even more amazing is the tank is a room divider so can't hide any crappyness at back of tank, all is visible in view.



Too kind Ian, But thanks . I did have lots of help from active members and threads to read, many a sleepless night thinking it though all the same.


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

wolfewill said:


> What size is the reactor or reactors? And how many inline diffusers are you going to use? I have a 330 g tank with two reactors in series (each ~24 inches long by 4 inches in diameter), with four inline diffusers ahead of that. I also have a devoted Sicce 5.0 pump to run it..... and this is maxed out to achieve the pH drop I need and the flow to distribute it all throughout the tank.



Reactors in planning stage. Is there any you recommed?
4 inline diffusers?! Fak! Should I be aiming for 6 then? Thats nuts...
My setup will be sumped so I presume plugging the diffusers and reactors to return pump line would do?
I will defo add powerheads to increase distribution.


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Thanks Ian.
Some good points on the usefulness of a PLC, those plus Zeus' previous points are making me consider one now (holiday mode sounds sweet...).
Also, noted on reading Zeus' journal. Im gathering plenty of homework already!

Just FYI, I am not expecting to beat Zeus at making a 4x larger tank than his work right away , that impossible with my half assed attitude to un-exciting parts of the build. I will probably have a go at high tech, fail or somewhat succeed then turn to mid tech.

And I am fully prepared to take some serious b*tch slapping from you guys for cutting corners.
I am already bracing myself for getting bashed over my planned substrate, which is black blasting sand plus root tabs...


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## Zeus. (8 Apr 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> I am already bracing myself for getting bashed over my planned substrate, which is black blasting sand plus root tabs..



I went down a similar route in theory only, I read

*The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - a How to Guide...*

*Tom's Bucket O' Mud - The End*

Then 

*How to Mineralize Soil Substrates?*

Then it all made sense substrate wise, great threads as well.


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## Zeus. (8 Apr 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> Reactors in planning stage. Is there any you recommed?



Link to vids of may reactor setup get over 1.0pH drop in less than one hour


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## Filip Krupa (8 Apr 2018)

Thanks again Zeus! More homework reading for when Im at work (?)

Seriously. Love it!


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## wolfewill (10 Apr 2018)

Filip Krupa said:


> Reactors in planning stage. Is there any you recommed?
> 4 inline diffusers?! Fak! Should I be aiming for 6 then? Thats nuts... My setup will be sumped so I presume plugging the diffusers and reactors to return pump line would do?



I've done that to avoid gurgling from undissolved gas trapped in the reactors. I don't like the noise and the inline diffusers can only deliver so much gas until the bubbles get too big to dissolve, even with the high dwell time of the large reactors. I have a GLA gang kit of four bubble counters hooked up to four Up Aqua 16/22 mm diffusers. The reactors are diy - about 24 inches long by 4 inches in diameter, made of PVC. They run in series, and with all the head created by the hoses, diffusers and reactors, I needed a devoted pump to return it to the tank. This CO2 line pressure is 40 psi, and the bubble counters are useless to count the bubbles 'cause they have to be on in excess of what is possible to count.... maybe 200 bubble per minute from each??

Oh, and dropping the pH in a tank of 330 gallons takes considerable time. The good news is that the CO2 doesn't gas off as quickly as for a smaller tank. But that is dependent on surface to volume ratio. My tank is 6 ft by 3 ft by 30 inches high. The pH cycles from about 7.0 to 6.3 in about two hours and back again slowly at night.

This system was way more than I had expected I would need. I originally had the two reactors running separately off of two separate filters (both Eheim 1500XLs). But they reduced the flow so much that the CO2 wasn't getting down below about 12 inches from the top of the tank. The pH would be killing livestock in the top 6 inches and not falling at all below a foot. I now have the two reactors on 45 degree angles, in series and on a devoted pump line (the Sicce 5.0), the two 1500s and a Fluval FX6. This really works well: No micro bubbles in the tank, no gurgling, huge growth from plants and very healthy livestock. It took a lot of trial error to get to this point but I finally got it to where I want it.


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## Edvet (10 Apr 2018)

I got a 1.4 pH drop in a soft water 400 gallon tank with a homemade reactor driven by a separate Eheim pump (2000l/hour), reactor was 120 cm long and 8 cm across.


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## Citrix (10 Apr 2018)

Zeus. said:


> Thats deep, mine has 500mm water depth, tank is 600mm deep and with hindsight I wish I had only done it with 400mm water depth, as keeping the carpet going is hard with deep water getting the light right is hard eg carpet struggles so up the lights, CO2 consumption increases with the higher light then the CO2 levels fluctuate then the taller plants melt with the higher light and fluctuating CO2 levels.
> 
> Have a braced tank myself and getting reach to the substrate is tricky, hood really needs to be off, how your going to reach the centre of tank substrate level if your 7 foot tall you would still struggle IMO.
> 
> ...


Thats crazy amount of co2, what is your water KH and how many BPS ure runing?


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## wolfewill (10 Apr 2018)

Edvet said:


> I got a 1.4 pH drop in a soft water 400 gallon tank with a homemade reactor driven by a separate Eheim pump (2000l/hour), reactor was 120 cm long and 8 cm across.


That's a terrific drop, and the reactor volume is about the same as mine. What is the KH of your make up water? And what kind of diffuser(s) were you using? Do you know the flow rate into the tank? This is great! I've never had anyone with which to bounce these numbers around. There are very few people with these sizes of tanks that are willing to discuss it.


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## Zeus. (10 Apr 2018)

Citrix said:


> Thats crazy amount of co2, what is your water KH and how many BPS ure runing?



Pretty hard kH is 8+,  TDS is 400.

as for BPS


dont think my CO2 uptake is very efficient but 'Clive' did use to use a lot of CO2 in his Big tank of the same order of magnitude


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## Edvet (10 Apr 2018)

It was soft water, i never measure KH, but i was adding 90 liter RO/day, but also using EI.
No diffusors, just direct CO2 in the reactor, the flow in the reactor is slower because of the added diameter, it should take the bubbles down a bit but dissolve it all before it leaves the reactor tube, I used clear acrylic so i could see the behaviour of the bubbles. CO2/air that gets trapped at the top side was sucked  away by an airhose size tube to a venturi just above the reactor and brought back into the waterstream that way. The clear reactor lets you adjust the flow to optimal function.
I made a prototype first ,it's stil in a shed,  i can show a pic tomorrow.


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## Edvet (11 Apr 2018)




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## Zeus. (11 Apr 2018)

so lower green pipe is the CO2 injection point and the upper pipe feeds the CO2 back on itself to the contrition (Venteri )  sucking the gas back into the flow of water going down ?


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## Edvet (11 Apr 2018)

Aye, venturi causes low pressure area sucking whatever it can suck back into the flow, water if no gas is present, or gas which isn't dissolved.
The venturi part can be a bit wider, as long as it is less the the size before and behind, it needs to speed up the flow, thus causing the lower pressure.


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