# 5ft Bookshelf Aquarium - River Scape



## doylecolmdoyle

I am in the planing stage of creating a High flow river scape, some details below, still planning, if any one has advice on creating high flow river scape please post, this is new to me, its very interesting to learn about a new aspect of this hobby.

Tank - Fire Aqua 1500 x 210 x 240, 10mm low iron glass. 20G / 75 ltr
Stand - Ikea Kallax bookshelf's as stand, with extra soild wood top.
Filter - Undecided something oversized to assist with flow
Flow - 2000lph powerhead via a "river tank manifold"
Hardscape - Smooth river stones and a few twigs
Substrate - River sand
Plants - Low light plants that do not mind high flow
Light - ?
Fish - ? Flow loving fish

Mainly after advice on creating unidirectional flow, originally I had just thought about using a oversized canister filter and having the inlet and outlet at opposite ends and increasing flow using a wavemaker or powerhead.  But after some research discovered "river tank manifolds" I think I can get away with 1 powerhead and modify the design of the manifold to not have a pipe running at the front of the tank, being so shallow I would like to try hide the pipes but not have a huge thick base of sand, planing on using 15mm pvc pipe, this smaller pipe may limit flow.

Basic mockup below showing the design of the manifold.


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## Jocke

Cool! Will follow this


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## Kezzab

I've not done this, but have read it somewhere...
You could drill the tank and run the pipework underneath it, or use flexible hosing outside the tank to connect the inlet to the powerhead in a loop (have powerhead 'upside down').

Also have seen people use maxspect gyre instead of manifold, but they aren't cheap!

K


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## alto

You need to go to LOL of course 

They've been talking River Tanks Forever there 

Article List

Happy Tanking


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## doylecolmdoyle

Cheers guys @alto thanks I did stumble across that forum, need to do some reading! 
@Kezzab yes that is an idea to drill the tank, perhaps the back panel (can't drill the bottom due to stand and location of tank etc) but I would like to keep the stank stock for future scapes, but drilling would allow for more hardscape and less equiptment, I am considering it, the Grye is out of my budget!


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## ian_m

The word Ikea and tank, bring fear to ones heart.....

I do hope you are going to amply reinforce the book stand to take the tanks weight. This tank with water and substrate could easily top over 100kg.

You will need major diagonal bracing to stop the book shelves collapsing.


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## kadoxu

Yup... you really need to reinforce the IKEA stands... or you'll probably have a really bad time.
I've reinforced one of those just for a 50L tank.


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## doylecolmdoyle

kadoxu said:


> Yup... you really need to reinforce the IKEA stands... or you'll probably have a really bad time.
> I've reinforced one of those just for a 50L tank.





ian_m said:


> The word Ikea and tank, bring fear to ones heart.....
> 
> I do hope you are going to amply reinforce the book stand to take the tanks weight. This tank with water and substrate could easily top over 100kg.
> 
> You will need major diagonal bracing to stop the book shelves collapsing.



I am experienced with these ikea bookshelf's and I do understand your concerns, I will reinforce the bookshelf's, also using a sheet of 18mm hardwood over the top, I currently use a 4x2 kallax atm for a 60p and 45p which will ruffly be the same weight as the 5ft bookshelf tank, this setup will use 2x 2x2 bookshelf's which will help with taking more "vertical" weight and also less prone to diagonal movement.


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## castle

I use a 2x2 kallax to hold a 60-P, with a sheet of wood on top to help distribute weight to the units sides. Been on it for a year. It's fine.


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## doylecolmdoyle

I think I have decided to scrap the idea of using a river manifold, it will just take up to much room in the small tank, will run a wavemaker or similar instead


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## Jocke

doylecolmdoyle said:


> I think I have decided to scrap the idea of using a river manifold, it will just take up to much room in the small tank, will run a wavemaker or similar instead



It was a tank like this in the latest Vlog by George Farmer on the tube. Take a look and get some inspiration 


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## doylecolmdoyle

Jocke said:


> It was a tank like this in the latest Vlog by George Farmer on the tube. Take a look and get some inspiration
> 
> 
> Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk



The huge one in Germany? I did see that, was so cool, Im pretty set on just a powerhead now, down the track I may try a manifold but for now I want to keep the tank looking clean without to much equipment


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## ian_m

You could always use one of these....
http://www.maxspect.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=227&Itemid=750&lang=en

These are the doggies danglers of wavemakers but have an unfortunately wallet thinningly price.

With these you will be able to alter the flow during the day so you can give the fish (and plants) a rest at night for instance.

I have my wavermaker on a timer in my tank. It comes on when CO2 comes on, but goes off at 7pm for when I am likely to be in the lounge, just to keep things quiet.


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## doylecolmdoyle

ian_m said:


> You could always use one of these....
> http://www.maxspect.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=227&Itemid=750&lang=en
> 
> These are the doggies danglers of wavemakers but have an unfortunately wallet thinningly price.
> 
> With these you will be able to alter the flow during the day so you can give the fish (and plants) a rest at night for instance.
> 
> I have my wavermaker on a timer in my tank. It comes on when CO2 comes on, but goes off at 7pm for when I am likely to be in the lounge, just to keep things quiet.



I did look at these maxspect gyre's, someone local to me is actually selling the 30w version of a good price barily used, unfortunately it is to wide to fit in the 210mm wide tank (the wavemaker is 300mm wide)

I am interested in a vortech mp10wqd but they are very pricey, I will probably just go with 1x jabeo sw4 with the option of adding a second if needed, these wavemakers are small and compact and controllable


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## ian_m

I bought a cheap wavemaker for my tank. In less than a year it started misbehaving, by spinning backwards when powered on !!!. Seller replaced it, but again in less than a year just stopped working, the motor going open circuit.

So did what I should have done in the first place, bought a  geniuine but expensive Koralia. This was incrediably quiet compared to my cheap one and is still going 4 years later.
http://www.hydor.com/eng/prodotti-tecnici/movement-pumps/koralia-evo.php


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## Aqua360

I placed a 4 foot 240 litre tank across two kallax a while back, I screwed them both together, and in hindsight this is an absolute bomb scare lol, but it worked


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## doylecolmdoyle

It is a bit concerning using the kallax bookshelf but i like to live on the edge  this tank will only be about 60ltr, I currently have a 45p and 60p on one 4x2 kallax and they are fine.

Picking the tank up this weekend, the actually scaping of the tank will not happen for a few weeks, I have sourced a big 1300l/h canister filter and ordered a jebao sw4 wave-maker (controllable up to 4000l/h), have officially scrapped the idea of the manifold, will be interesting to see how the flow goes in the tank, plan is to set up as per the diagram below. Also ordered one 5ft LED tube with a 2:1 ratio of 8000K+4000K whites with 30 degree beam angle, plants will only be low light, the tube will be hung high above the tank via CADE Luxury Light Stands, which will screw into the kallax bookshelf's, the LEDs will be controlled by a tc420.


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## alto

A well put together Kallax is actually quite sturdy - even on (suitable load) castors - just use the max # of dowels (need extra as there are more slots than dowels in the kit for some reason)

The high gloss finish version is as water resistant as any basic fish stand - though care needs to be taken with both to avoid water damage (slow leak, persistent drip, major flood where water can seek into the screw etc slots)

It's worth checking IKEA maximum loads on their various shelves, benches etc (Kallax line rates higher than many)


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## doylecolmdoyle

alto said:


> The high gloss finish version is as water resistant as any basic fish stand - though care needs to be taken with both to avoid water damage (slow leak, persistent drip, major flood where water can seek into the screw etc slots)



You have have just talked me into splashing the cash for the high gloss white finish, I was planing to get the basic white as they are half the price... I have a full wall full of Kallax shelves in my study (opposite wall of where this bookshelf's tank will sit)

They are great for storage and living in a small apartment I need to maximise storage. Picked up the tank today, its all wrapped up in a MDF crate, were it will sit for another few weeks, just hopping its not cracked inside there, I need to store the tank outside for awhile so I dont want to open it yet.


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## alto

Here IKEA high gloss finish is 130 vs 100 (80 vs 60 if 2 shelf), so well worth the extra,
& high gloss grey-turquoise has been on sale for 100

(If you find the right person, they'll look for upcoming sales )

Yeah Kallax is one of the better series IKEA has come out with, though the extras (aside from the casters) are rather overpriced
Got some Lekman Boxes on clearance that work great as "drawers"


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## doylecolmdoyle

The tank! I snuck a look inside the box to make sure it was not cracked and it looks great, cant wait to get this out of the box and onto my stand, hoping next weekend or the following. 




 

These are the rocks I am going to use, they are natural river rocks from the area I live in, Western Australia.


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## Bobdmr

Can't wait so see this take shape


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## Aqua360

looking forward to seeing this develop, I have a roughly similar sized tank (48x8x9) lying empty, they do take some planning


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## CooKieS

Loving the tank size and those rocks, I'm searching the same one for my next scape


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## doylecolmdoyle

Got the 2 ikea kallax stands together here it is with the hardwood top (still has plastic on it) getting it cut to length on the weekend, will overhand about 1/2 inch all around apart from the back which will be flush.


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## alto

The hardwood top looks great


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## rebel

Whats the hardwood top? From Ikea??


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## doylecolmdoyle

rebel said:


> Whats the hardwood top? From Ikea??



Its a oak, its pre oiled which is handy, cant remember exactly what kind, from Bunnings!


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## doylecolmdoyle

Picked up the riverstones pictured a few posts back in the tub and also got a few big stones from a landscaping supplier, they hand nice flat bottoms  good for standing up, should work well.

The riverstones in the tub are a lot darker than the big stones I brought from the landscape supplier, they are also very dusty so probably will appear darker once washed.

Below are the big stones from the landscape supplier, only 60c per Kg. If the colour difference between the two lots of stones sourced is too noticeable / not natural I will head back to the landscape supplier and get more, they have a nice range of sizes.


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## Tim Harrison

Different colours works well, it's also quite natural given that the source of these types of clast is often varied even though they end up deposited in the same place.
They are fragments of larger rock broken off by weathering and erosion often transported by rivers and streams, during which they get their round or worn shape.
Hence, riverstone


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## doylecolmdoyle

Tim Harrison said:


> Different colours works well, it's also quite natural given that the source of these types of clast is often varied even though they end up deposited in the same place.
> They are fragments of larger rock broken off by weathering and erosion often transported by rivers and streams, during which they get their round or worn shape.
> Hence, riverstone



Yah for sure, the two sources of rocks I have may not even be from the same region but they are both from Western Australia, will post a photo tomorrow showing the two sets of rocks after I give them a wash, all the rocks are different colours which is cool and natural but one set is much darker over all and less "rounded", the stones in the photo above are "South West Australian Riverstone" the others in the black tub a few posts back are "Ord Rivertones" which is in the North West of Western Australia, probably about 3000km between the two regions  I think once the are both washed the colour different wont be so much, tho I am leaning to using all rocks from one location.


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## Jocke

I think you should worry more about the texture of the stones rather than the color in this scape. 

Tank dimensions looks really promising and your hard wood top is beautiful 


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## doylecolmdoyle

Jocke said:


> I think you should worry more about the texture of the stones rather than the color in this scape.
> 
> Tank dimensions looks really promising and your hard wood top is beautiful
> 
> 
> Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk



Cheers, I guess the texture will be fairly uniform / smooth.


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## doylecolmdoyle

My single 5ft LED tube from MakeMyLED AU arrived up today, had to connect it up to my tc420 for a quick test, I think it looks great, should be enough light for the low light plants I have planned, the tube has 30 x 3w LEDs at a 2:1 ratio 8000K+4000K whites with 30 degree optic lenses / beam angle, the light covers the stand perfectly with no spill at this height.


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## chrism

This looks great!  I desperately want a river tank, but need to wait until we’ve had the extension!

I’ve got a 4ft tank on the Kallax Ikea unit and wish I’d added support to the back.  It’s perfectly strong enough top to bottom, but it does shift a bit left to right  Not sure what two screwed together are like, but thought I’d mention it just in case.

When I’ve got some time I’ll be strengthening my unit for sure.


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## ian_m

Here are some cabinet bracing ideas other people have implemented on their cabinets in order to prevent sideways movement.





Below could also be done by just affixing the uprights (green) to the rear of the cabinet. Make out of 18mm or 12mm thick MDF (cut to size at B&Q), primed with MDF primer and roller painted with gloss paint to match the cabinet colour. If you are not happy with MDF near water (or don't trust your priming and painting) just use plywood instead, or go to proper timber merchant and get waterproof ply (generallycalled marine ply at £££) instead.


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## CooKieS

Well, that seems to be a lot a fun to scape 
Lovely pebbles by the way


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## doylecolmdoyle

chrism said:


> This looks great!  I desperately want a river tank, but need to wait until we’ve had the extension!
> 
> I’ve got a 4ft tank on the Kallax Ikea unit and wish I’d added support to the back.  It’s perfectly strong enough top to bottom, but it does shift a bit left to right  Not sure what two screwed together are like, but thought I’d mention it just in case.
> 
> When I’ve got some time I’ll be strengthening my unit for sure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The 4x2 (same kallax unit I have behind the 2 x 2x2) shouldn't really be used in this configuration, technically when its positioned 4 cubes long x 2 high its on it side and can be prone to sideways movement and collapsing, saying that I have had no problems with the two smaller tanks on the 4x2 unit, I wouldn't risk a 4ft tank I dont think.

The two x 2x2 stands have way less horizontal movement, they are the correct way up and the middle shelf runs the length of each stand horizontally, also the top and bottom sections run the length of the shelve distributing the weight down thru the horizontal sides and middle shelve, with the 4x2 really the only thing support the weight is the 4 screws as the top section is butted into the sides not running over the top.


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## Aqua360

that's looking great! Really like the top for the kallax, coming along! Other tanks in the background look cracking too


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## doylecolmdoyle

Aqua360 said:


> that's looking great! Really like the top for the kallax, coming along! Other tanks in the background look cracking too



Cheers it is getting there, picking up the filter tomorrow, I am moving the 2 tanks in the background of the photo outside and the 5ft will go in their place, pretty much finished setting up an outdoor rack which will hold 3 fish tanks, will be interesting to see how they go outside, have no more room inside, I live in a 70sqm apartment with 6 fish tanks now


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## Aqua360

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Cheers it is getting there, picking up the filter tomorrow, I am moving the 2 tanks in the background of the photo outside and the 5ft will go in their place, pretty much finished setting up an outdoor rack which will hold 3 fish tanks, will be interesting to see how they go outside, have no more room inside, I live in a 70sqm apartment with 6 fish tanks now



MTS strikes again lol, think the most I've had running has been 8 nano's, but I very quickly realise for me that's too much, and end up cutting right back. Currently got two running including the 4ft bookshelf tank, but I already want to change stock in it, and I've got two 24x8x8 inch tanks ready and waiting to go lol


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## doylecolmdoyle

Starting to plan out the hardscape, I am thinking of arranging the rocks as per below, with the bigger rocks down the intake end, leaving the outflow and wavemaker fairly open with smaller stones to not obstruct to much flow. 

Planting will probably consist of attaching anubias, buce and java fern to small bits of driftwood and positioning in and around the rocks.






Also my local aquarium store has "Orange Finned Danio kyathit" in the store... they look rather dull in store but google images reveals a nice looking simple and smaller danio with a bit of a red/orange tinge... I think I may try get a school of these guys in the tank and add some Hillstream Loach in winter when the tank is well and truly established and a bit cooler, in summer the tank will sit around 25c and rise up to 28c on really hot days, in winter it should sit around 20c which is more around the temp hillstream loaches like, I am hoping if I get them in during the cooler months they will adapt to the slow rise in temp as the warmer months approach.


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## Edvet

Are you going for a flowing river? If so use multiple cannister filters to get the required volume. I would hide the outflows behind some black filterfoam, and maybe even the inflows too. If you use coarse foam it won't hinder the flow and it wont show hardware in the tank.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Edvet said:


> Are you going for a flowing river? If so use multiple cannister filters to get the required volume. I would hide the outflows behind some black filterfoam, and maybe even the inflows too. If you use coarse foam it won't hinder the flow and it wont show hardware in the tank.



Yes attempting to get "river flow" but decided not to use a river manifold as would be hard to hide in a tank only 25cm deep. So the setup wont be a true "uni-directional flow"

I have already got all the equipment, tho I guess this could change if I dont like the amount of flow.

Filter is a 1400lph canister, using stainless steal inlet and outlet
Jebao SW4 Wave maker (controllable upto 4000lph)

Aquarium volume with rocks etc will be around 50 - 60 ltr... I should easily get 30x turn over which is what I have read is the min for hillstream loaches


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## Aqua360

Liking that visual drawing, the rock placement looks spot on with what I'd envisioned doing in mine also, somewhat adhering to the golden rule of thirds, and avoiding obstruction.


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## Edvet

doylecolmdoyle said:


> not to use a river manifold


I don't like them visualy either, hence the advice of multiple cannister filters
Putting a large boulder more towards the middle will increase flow velocity around that area too.


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## Kezzab

I have read that wave makers can be a risk for hillstream loaches, apparently they can get stuck/sucked on to them. Not sure if anyone has experienced this?


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## MDP91

Cant wait to see how this takes shape


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## doylecolmdoyle

Kezzab said:


> I have read that wave makers can be a risk for hillstream loaches, apparently they can get stuck/sucked on to them. Not sure if anyone has experienced this?



I am sure any fish could get sucked into them if they get close enough, I have looked over many setups for hillstream loaches and a fair few use wave makers (the river manifold is ideal), but I guess it is a risk, the hillstream loaches at my LFS are tiny and I could see them getting sucked in, something to keep an eye on...


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## CooKieS

Rock placement looks promising, maybe the big rock on the left would look nicer if moved a bit on the right?


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## Gill

I've noticed that people are covering the outer casing of the powerheads with a shrimp mesh. So that nothing get can be sucked in and shredded. Which I wish I had done with my puffers. Lost 6 to the wave maker years ago.

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## doylecolmdoyle

Exciting day, finally got the tank in place! Hopefully I dont let it sit like this for to long, tho there is something about a nice clean empty tank that is just nice to look at haha.





Full tank shots are going to be tricky (the room is only about 3 x 4mtr), the above photo is just from my iphone backed up as far as I can get from the tank, I do have a wide angle lens for my DSLR which will come in handy.


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## pepedopolous

Hi,

Cool project! I keep a 'river' set up in a normal dimension aquarium with a canister filter (Eheim Pro 3 350T 1050lph), and a really nice yet cheap Sicce Voyager 2000 lph circulation pump.

I've got about 30x flow when you take into account the rocks and sand. 

Bearing in mind temperatures, I think I should warn you that in my experience (1 year), some 'hillstream' species seem to struggle with higher temps much more than others.

In the summer where I live, temps can be in the mid to high 30s. I have _Stiphodon_ gobies and _Gastromyzon _loaches that seem to have survived the higher temps with no problems. However, 2 of my 4 _Sewellia_ loaches died when the temperatures were at their highest. It's ironic since _Sewellia _are becoming increasingly common in pet shops here. Also I think that they are the most active and you need large groups to repress aggressive behaviour between males (which you need a bigger aquarium to do).

Another problem with this type of setup is that species are sold with the incorrect names. Not always a big deal but I bought some supposedly algae-eating _Stiphodon_ gobies only to later find that they were not _Stiphodon_ and actually only eat live food.

P


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## Tim Harrison

Yeah, very cool project, looking forward to seeing this scaped


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## doylecolmdoyle

pepedopolous said:


> Hi,
> 
> Cool project! I keep a 'river' set up in a normal dimension aquarium with a canister filter (Eheim Pro 3 350T 1050lph), and a really nice yet cheap Sicce Voyager 2000 lph circulation pump.
> 
> I've got about 30x flow when you take into account the rocks and sand.
> 
> Bearing in mind temperatures, I think I should warn you that in my experience (1 year), some 'hillstream' species seem to struggle with higher temps much more than others.
> 
> In the summer where I live, temps can be in the mid to high 30s. I have _Stiphodon_ gobies and _Gastromyzon _loaches that seem to have survived the higher temps with no problems. However, 2 of my 4 _Sewellia_ loaches died when the temperatures were at their highest. It's ironic since _Sewellia _are becoming increasingly common in pet shops here. Also I think that they are the most active and you need large groups to repress aggressive behaviour between males (which you need a bigger aquarium to do).
> 
> Another problem with this type of setup is that species are sold with the incorrect names. Not always a big deal but I bought some supposedly algae-eating _Stiphodon_ gobies only to later find that they were not _Stiphodon_ and actually only eat live food.
> 
> P



Thanks for the advice, do you have a thread for your river tank?! We must live in similar climates, here in Perth, Australia in summer (which just ended) its gets up to 40c with average temps around 30c over summer. I do want to keep Hillstream loaches and my local store has _Sewellia lineolata _at the moment I asked what temp the run their tanks at and they said 25c which I thought was a bit warm for these guys. My tanks over summer reach 28c on the hottest days generally over summer it will sit around 25c and winter around 18-20c. I am hoping if I introduce the Hillstream loaches to the tank over winter they will acclimatise to the summer as temps rise.

My state is fairly limited with what fish we get, we have very strict quarantine rules, I will have to hunt around to see what other species of Hillstream loaches are available locally.

_Stiphodon_ gobies are basically impossible to get in Australia, they are not allowed to be imported into the country, we do have some native Australian _Stiphodon_ gobies but they are super rare and dont think I will be able to source any.

The first lot of fish I plan to stock are _Orange Finned Danio kyathit_, hopefully I can get some nice colours out of them, in my local aquarium store they dont look orange at all but this photo is pretty stunning. I will not introduce any hillstream loaches until the tank is very stable and has some algae for them to eat.

j


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## CooKieS

I love that kind of blank canvas!


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## Eduard18

me too ; so many possibilities ..... or not


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## doylecolmdoyle

Got the plumbing sorted, had to cut the Stainless pipes to size to fit the shallow tank. No leaks! Hard to say how much flow / how directional the flow is, I dropped a few grains of food in and they didnt exactly go flying down the other end, sort of tumbled around, im sure hardscape will change the flow in the tank. 

I think the ground / stand is not level, there is about 1cm drop in water from left to right, is there anyways to fix this? Add shims or something under the tank stand on the right side?

Here is a photo after i filled to test for leaks etc.


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## mort

Is the water level different with the filter off? I have a similar 40x8x8" tank as part of my marine filtration and with the flow only coming from one end, and very strong, I get an uneven water surface.
If it's with it off then shims under the lower end will work fine.


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## doylecolmdoyle

mort said:


> Is the water level different with the filter off? I have a similar 40x8x8" tank as part of my marine filtration and with the flow only coming from one end, and very strong, I get an uneven water surface.
> If it's with it off then shims under the lower end will work fine.



Very good point, will test this tomorrow, I turned the wave maker up to full and the water level dropped even more at that end, so I think you are correct, didnt want to unplug the filter right now but I will double check tomorrow before I drain the tank. Hoping to start the hardscape this weekend.


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## Conort2

This should look great when it's filled.

That photo doesn't do the kyathit danios justice. Once you have them a few months the males will look much better than that photo. I think those with the sewellias would look good. I think the main thing would be keeping the oxygen levels as high as possible for them when it warms up and they should be fine.

Cheers Conor


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## doylecolmdoyle

Conort2 said:


> This should look great when it's filled.
> 
> That photo doesn't do the kyathit danios justice. Once you have them a few months the males will look much better than that photo. I think those with the sewellias would look good. I think the main thing would be keeping the oxygen levels as high as possible for them when it warms up and they should be fine.
> 
> Cheers Conor



Cheers, I went back to the store that had the kyathit danios, they where the spotted varity, still no colour in them. Also some must be fully grown, about 5cm big, I am wondering if they will be to big for this tank, perhaps Mountain minnows will suit the scale more so.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Ok so the stand / floor is not level, havent figured out if its the stand or just floor sloping. There is about a 1cm water level difference right to left with filter/wave maker turned off. Will have a think about what I can do, none of the tanks in my house are level so this isnt anything new 

Took is a iphone video before I drained the tank.


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## CooKieS

Sick dimensions! Lovely


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## Conort2

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Cheers, I went back to the store that had the kyathit danios, they where the spotted varity, still no colour in them. Also some must be fully grown, about 5cm big, I am wondering if they will be to big for this tank, perhaps Mountain minnows will suit the scale more so.


They shouldn't get much larger than the minnows really. However I will agree with you minnows suit these type of scapes perfectly. The Vietnamese variety, tanicthys micagemmae are great if you can find them.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Conort2 said:


> They shouldn't get much larger than the minnows really. However I will agree with you minnows suit these type of scapes perfectly. The Vietnamese variety, tanicthys micagemmae are great if you can find them.



I will have to have another look at the Danio kyathit, they where a bit pricey at my local store, they did also have a few tanicthys micagemmae but again price compared to the standard white cloud mountain minnows was 5x as much


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## doylecolmdoyle

Started playing around with the rock layout, fairly happy with the left side but didnt have big enough rocks for the right side, will head back to the landscape supply tomorrow. 

Also now I think I need to move the outlet and wavemaker to the left side as I have a nice pocket behind the second largest rock where I could plant some Val or something long and thin. With the flow moving right to left I dont think the long leaves would flow out nicely.

Day time photo with lots of reflections, but you get the idea, will make a few changes tomorrow, mainly to the right side.


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## doylecolmdoyle

I switched the inlet / outlet around, only thing is I will need to run the co2 (probably dont need co2) on the in pipe (into filter) have done this before without any real issues.

Also I have a second wavemaker on the way, tho with this positioning there isnt much need for it...


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## pepedopolous

Lovely stones. I didn't manage to get such a nice gradation in sizes. Something I'm still looking to fix. I really recommend _Tanichthys micagemmae. _Fish for this specialised environment should be expensive! They look really nice in a big group and even shoal. Plus, the light can make their eyes really glow at times. I wonder if you're gonna try any plants in there.

P


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

pepedopolous said:


> Lovely stones. I didn't manage to get such a nice gradation in sizes. Something I'm still looking to fix. I really recommend _Tanichthys micagemmae. _Fish for this specialised environment should be expensive! They look really nice in a big group and even shoal. Plus, the light can make their eyes really glow at times. I wonder if you're gonna try any plants in there.



Thanks, will defentely consider _Tanichthys micagemmae, _Last time I was at my local fish store they did have them, but I dont think they are common here in Perth, Western Australia.

The stones didnt come together completely as planned, still need to get a few more medium sized stones, one for the right hand side group and one to go after the 3rd largest stone. One good thing is that behind the 2nd largest stone is a nice void where I can plant some long strappy / flowing plant like vallisneria or something similar, probably as add a some anubias or similar scatter around


----------



## CooKieS

Nice try, the big stones looks a bit out of scale in comparaison to the others, it's an great idea to add some medium sized one in order to add some depth and realism


----------



## Edvet

How about some blue-eyes or melanotaeniidae


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

CooKieS said:


> Nice try, the big stones looks a bit out of scale in comparaison to the others, it's an great idea to add some medium sized one in order to add some depth and realism



Yah i think a few medium size stones are missing from the layout, the landscape supply was shut today so will head there tomorrow.



Edvet said:


> How about some blue-eyes or melanotaeniidae



I am going to try Pseudomugil gertrudae (Spotted Blue-eyes) in one of my outdoor tanks, are you referring to some other kind of fish? Will have to look into melanotaeniidae did a quick google and seems there are many varieties of rainbow fish, tho in Australia we are pretty limited as to what fish are are allowed into the country, seems like there are some native melanotaeniidae


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
Lovely water rounded cobbles, they are perfect. 





doylecolmdoyle said:


> only thing is I will need to run the co2 (probably dont need co2) on the in pipe (into filter) have done this before without any real issues.


Added CO2 will out gas really quickly because of the large surface area to volume ratio and rapid flow. Those factors give you the advantage that CO2 and oxygen levels should track atmospheric levels pretty closely. If you don't add CO2 you will never have much, but you will always have some.   





doylecolmdoyle said:


> I am going to try Pseudomugil gertrudae (Spotted Blue-eyes) in one of my outdoor tanks, are you referring to some other kind of fish? Will have to look into melanotaeniidae did a quick google and seems there are many varieties of rainbow fish, tho in Australia we are pretty limited as to what fish are are allowed into the country, seems like there are some native melanotaeniidae


There are plenty. Have a look at <"Home of the Rainbowfish">. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Lovely water rounded cobbles, they are perfect. Added CO2 will out gas really quickly because of the large surface area to volume ratio and rapid flow. Those factors give you the advantage that CO2 and oxygen levels should track atmospheric levels pretty closely. If you don't add CO2 you will never have much, but you will always have some.   There are plenty. Have a look at <"Home of the Rainbowfish">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Great website for the Rainbowfish thanks! Yes probably not much need for co2, planting will be minimal and surface movement will be very high, I have allowed / setup for co2 but there may well be not much point, specially if I want to keep hillstream loaches


----------



## CooKieS

Microdevario kubotai looks great and they love the flow too.

Here's a vidéo in the wild:


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

CooKieS said:


> Microdevario kubotai looks great and they love the flow too.
> 
> Here's a vidéo in the wild:




Cheers, I have a few of them in my blackwater tank, originally had them in my 45p tank but they didnt do well, I started with 10 and slowly lost them / they jumped, the remaining 5 went into my blackwater tank and I lost 2 more, so now left with 3 (in with 30 odd other boraras), I didnt realise they liked flow, could be an option if I want to try them again. There small size would suit the bookshelf footprint!


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Planted (just some val/trident fern and anubias/buce) and filled the tank today, flow is not as good as I had hoped, I think the pipe from the filter to outlet is to long and really killing the flow from the filter. I think I will save for a bigger filter / fluval fx5 or 6. I seeded the filter with a sponge from another tank so hopefully the tank cycles quickly and I can see how fish deal with the current filter and wave maker setup.

The Jebao wave maker is rather noisey and really kicked up the sand when positioned low so I had to raise it right under the outlet pipe, added a bunch more la plata big near the wave maker to stop it lifting the sand.

I didnt wash the sand and its very cloudy not so noticeable front on so took a photo anyways, you cant see half way down the tank from the side. Will try take some better photos when it clears up. I kind of liked the layout better before planting, hopefully it grows on me.


IMG_1407 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## Tim Harrison

Looks good, planting has definitely added another dimension to the scape.


----------



## zozo

doylecolmdoyle said:


> they jumped



Than they probably were parasite infested from the LFS.. As far as i know they are wild catch and not yet captive bred. Good thing to learn and recognize when fish are not healthy or show depressed behaivor.. It's hard to explain in words what to look for, i kinda learned it over many years trail and error. And now i see at first glance when not to buy and leave them in the shop and wait a few weeks for another batch to arrive. With boraras/rasboras they should be full color with a somewhat silvery shiny round belly. If they are pale and or skinny or belly is even worse and concave. Than do not buy.. Tho experience makes you see if it concers very young fish that still are in transition periode from larval stadium to young adult, these always look skiny and flat and have relative to body size i bit larger eye. Learn to see these small details, the smaller the fish are the smaller the details to overlook.  Belly should never be concave in shape.

But the Kobutai are realy very lovely little fish.. In my tank they also regularly play in the filter outlet stream.. Healthy specimen are extremely playfull and constantly showingh sham battles and chasing eachother back and forth around the tank..


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

zozo said:


> Than they probably were parasite infested from the LFS.. As far as i know they are wild catch and not yet captive bred. Good thing to learn and recognize when fish are not healthy or show depressed behaivor.. It's hard to explain in words what to look for, i kinda learned it over many years trail and error. And now i see at first glance when not to buy and leave them in the shop and wait a few weeks for another batch to arrive. With boraras/rasboras they should be full color with a somewhat silvery shiny round belly. If they are pale and or skinny or belly is even worse and concave. Than do not buy.. Tho experience makes you see if it concers very young fish that still are in transition periode from larval stadium to young adult, these always look skiny and flat and have relative to body size i bit larger eye. Learn to see these small details, the smaller the fish are the smaller the details to overlook.  Belly should never be concave in shape.
> 
> But the Kobutai are realy very lovely little fish.. In my tank they also regularly play in the filter outlet stream.. Healthy specimen are extremely playfull and constantly showingh sham battles and chasing eachother back and forth around the tank..



Cheers for the info, I cant really recall what they looked like when I first got them, the few remaining are very big now (compared to the other boraras I keep) seem healthy and very active, like you said they zip around and show the other fish who is boss... even tho there is only 3 of them and about 30 other boraras.

I have a few golden mountain minnows in one of my outdoor thanks that I want to rescape so they will be the first fish into this tank, I may just stick with mountain minnows


----------



## Konsa

Hi
If U deside on tge minows favour.Try to find
Tanichthys linni wich has more colour and long fins.I have them i  my tank with the Sap puffers and they are my best buy.Great colours and personality
Regards Konsa


----------



## alto

For the scale of the tank (long but neither tall nor deep so I'd treat this like a smaller tank rather than a typical 1.5m tank) I'd go with fish smaller than the common mountain minnows 
FWIW I've seen M kubotai in a 120cm long tank & they loved the length (flow in this tank was moderate, I don't think of them as riverine fish - unlike some of the loaches etc)

Anyone else see this the round stones ?


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

alto said:


> For the scale of the tank (long but neither tall nor deep so I'd treat this like a smaller tank rather than a typical 1.5m tank) I'd go with fish smaller than the common mountain minnows
> FWIW I've seen M kubotai in a 120cm long tank & they loved the length (flow in this tank was moderate, I don't think of them as riverine fish - unlike some of the loaches etc)
> 
> Anyone else see this the round stones ?



I do agree, smaller fish would be better, and with the flow not being and high as I would have liked M kubotai would probably enjoy the tank, any other small fish that enjoy flow?


----------



## zozo

doylecolmdoyle said:


> any other small fish that enjoy flow?


http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hara-jerdoni/



Note their abillity to change color.. Seen over 6 color paterns changing over the day. No idea what it triggers, could be underground color.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

zozo said:


> http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hara-jerdoni/



Wow they are freaky cool, cant say I have ever seen them in Australia, similar to whiptail catfish which I have been wanting to keep for awhile!


----------



## zozo

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Wow they are freaky cool, cant say I have ever seen them in Australia, similar to whiptail catfish which I have been wanting to keep for awhile!



Dunno, sounds strange, because their distribution is closer to Australia than it is to Europe. Makes you think to should be easy to obtain.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

zozo said:


> Dunno, sounds strange, because their distribution is closer to Australia than it is to Europe. Makes you think to should be easy to obtain.



You would thinks so but Australia have very tight laws on importing any plants or animals, even more so strict in my State, we cant buy plants from outside of Western Australia, makes aquascaping pretty tuff!


----------



## zozo

Than ou are still doing a great job.. Worth even a bigger compliment..


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Added some wood, unsure if it will stay, would like to find another bit that I can stick behind the biggest stone to make it look like the wood flows the length of the rock formation.


IMG_1413w by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## CooKieS

Woods looks perfect too me, looks very natural


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

CooKieS said:


> Woods looks perfect too me, looks very natural



Cheers to me it looks to distracting / busy, but I think when the Val grows across the tank more it will make the wood look more natural


----------



## alto

Agree - more wood behind the biggest stone 

Hard jerdoni are "less likely" on most fish lists - AFAIK they are wild caught so seasonal 
They definitely prefer cooler water or perhaps it's just about oxygen levels (natural waters are high in oxygen)


----------



## Gill

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Added some wood, unsure if it will stay, would like to find another bit that I can stick behind the biggest stone to make it look like the wood flows the length of the rock formation.
> 
> 
> IMG_1413w by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



Great scape, hope i dont ruin it by saying - reminds me of super mario and yoshi landscapes


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Added 8 "tanichthys micagemmae" Vietnamese White Cloud Mountain Minnows yesterday, the store only had 8 but said they should get more so I will hopefully add to the school. They are super skittish and scared of any movement around the tank, hopefully they settle in and get use to some movement around the tank, I may add about the same amount of glowlight danios next week to see if they help make the minnows feel more at home.

I had to remove the wavemakers, they trapped the fish several times and the fish didnt like them at all, I guess wavemakers are not designed for such shallow tanks, if the fish got anywhere near them they basically got trapped by the force of the wavemakers pulling water back into them, it was concerning to watch.

I am going to run a second filter so that will be 2x 1400lph filters but I think adding any hillstream loaches my have to be put on hold until I rescape, without wavemakers surface movement is minimal, i think next time I will create a proper river manifold setup


----------



## Edvet

You could use a pump like this







 with a big block of aquariumfoam over the inlet


----------



## Edvet

I use a setup like it in my white cube






DSC_5032_copyII by Ed Prust, on Flickr


----------



## zozo

Beter late than never..  I lost the url of the tutorial to build a river strean setup from a standard tank in aestheticaly the best way possible.
With using the same pumps like @Edvet metions, connected to an inlet piping layed over the bottom bellow the sand to the other end of the tank. Where the inlet is above the sand with a filter sponge.. This creates the best liniar stream like flow patern available in a standard fish tank. I'm sure @Tim Harrison still knows to locate this Tut.. I remember he posted it here some time ago...


----------



## webworm

PFK had an article

https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co...-secret-to-setting-up-a-better-river-aquarium


----------



## zozo

webworm said:


> PFK had an article
> 
> https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co...-secret-to-setting-up-a-better-river-aquarium



I believe that's the one..  And than, take some aquarium safe silicone kit covet the pumps outside with it dip it in a very fine lava gravel. Something like fine .05 x 1.0mm fuji sand..That way the pump will get a lava gravel coating.  Than glue mosses and Microsorum ferns to the gravel.. In time the pumps completely blend into the scape.


----------



## Fiske

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Wow they are freaky cool, cant say I have ever seen them in Australia, similar to whiptail catfish which I have been wanting to keep for awhile!



Haras are nice fish, they like it cool and well oxygenated. I have a bunch, and they mostly hide in a hollow root I have. They're not necessarily nocturnal, although mine tend to be, there can be days between I see one of them. Some of them go for a quick tour on wc day. And yeah, they change colour, which is pretty cool. Think I read somewhere that diet also could affect their colour at times.


----------



## Edvet

zozo said:


> build a river strean setup from a standard tank in aestheticaly the best way possible.


I like the tanks with the hidden bottom, like the one's from Panta rhei.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Cheers for the tips guys, I did research the "river manifold" when I was planning the scape, I decided against it as I didnt think I could effectually hide the plumbing in a tank that is only 24cm deep x 19cm wide (internal measurements), next rescape / time around I will try the river mainfold with the power-heads connected to the PVC pipe and inlets down the other end. I think it could be hidden pretty nicely If I did a scape where the rocks banked up the back glass. Will save that idea for next time. For now I am going to hook up my second filter, that will be 2 x 1360 lph filters and I can ether have one empty or spread the media across both to try increase flow in the filter. Just waiting for a second set of SS pipes to arrive.

With the SS pipes so low in the aquarium I am not getting much surface movement, so not suitable for loaches etc that need high oxygen levels, I may try DIY a spray bar from the SS bend and angle it upwards, should create some surface movement.

Today I added 10 regular white cloud mountain minnows (the smaller fish), one of the Vietnamese WCMM's jumped last night (leaving 7), they where so skittish, the most skittish fish I had kept (tho only in the tank for 1 day) since adding the other fish they seem much more confident, less hiding when I walk in the room and are actually out of the plants swimming around, tho a few still dont want to leave the planted area.

Plants are melting, I almost forgot what melt was like  hopefully they dont completely melt I used most of my anubias from my 60p in this scape :~( Will add some Darwin Algae Eating shrimp (an Australian native) next week, gonna need a clean up crew with the melting.

Here is the 22mm photo, I cant actually get centre of the tank with this lens, need to take the photo from the doorway. Other photos had been with my 10-18mm lens, this 22mm lens takes a better photo but hard to frame this long tank in the small room.


IMG_1422 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Edvet said:


> I like the tanks with the hidden bottom, like the one's from Panta rhei.




That tank was my inspiration for this aquarium... tho I am no where near the same level of flow or tech


----------



## zozo

Edvet said:


> I like the tanks with the hidden bottom, like the one's from Panta rhei.


Yes seen them before, i saw one a few months ago rather large one in a expo video.. Didn't know they are from Pantha Rhei..  Alreadu wondered who makes them..


----------



## zozo

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Cheers for the tips guys, I did research the "river manifold" when I was planning the scape, I decided against it as I didnt think I could effectually hide the plumbing



You actualy could achieve the same effect as you did now but use a set of 2 inlets and outlets on a stronger external filter. Figure out a way to Y split but make both parts symetricaly equal to reach same flow over both..


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@Edvet I do like the setups with the returns / pumps etc hidden under the tank, I think these style tanks have a false floor, you could perhaps drill the bottom of the tank to achieve something similar, I cant drill the bottom of this tank with the current stand (just the ikea kallax) I could get he back glass drilled and run piping behind the tank... anyways these ideas are all for future projects for now I will trial 2 filters.

@zozo I did consider buying a Fluval FX6 but reading the manual I wont have enough depth to use the stock inlet and outlet pipes (huge 25/32mm pipes) and if I reduced down to 16/22 hose / pipes I may as well not buy such a powerful filter


----------



## Fiske

Using a FX6 you'd probably have to refill the tank every ten minutes too


----------



## webworm

Mega flow.....


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Quick week 1 video i shot this evening



Hopefully set the second filter up later this week. Have ordered a few different sizes of these duckbill nozzle things, not 100% sure if any will fit the 18mm SS pipes but I think I may be able to make them fit. Coming from china so probably a few weeks away. Should help me angle the flow and create some surface movement.


----------



## CooKieS

webworm said:


> Mega flow.....



Nice betta tank!


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Few macro photos from this evening, one fish has a wound on its side (first photo) what are the chances it recovers? The fish swims fine an is eating. 

Most photos are of the Tanichthys micagemmae, there colour isnt great, perhaps not from the best stock, I think the more vibrant fish are the males, perhaps they will colour up a bit more with time, they seem to be close to fully grown (20-30mm), they probably prefer dark substrate. To me the Tanichthys albonubes are more interesting fish.

Fish with wound




IMG_1444 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr

Female Tanichthys micagemmae


IMG_1489 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_1485 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr

Male Tanichthys micagemmae


IMG_1474 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_1441 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_1467 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_1530 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## alto

I suspect you're just seeing stress colouring & behaviour
How did they seem at the shop? Any info on providence?

As long as fish is active & eating, recovery is possible - unfortunately the stress they're displaying will significantly reduce chance of recovery (I'd consider tossing these fish into the overgrown java fern tank for a couple weeks - months  until they display more normal colouring, activity - or perhaps there are other reasons that make that tank unsuitable ...)

Lots of clean water would be my preferred treatment (& reduce stress - if you can find a way to do that) 

If you can source/create a medicated food they will eat, I'd also give that a go: if no signs of internal parasites, kanamycin etc to treat internal bacterial infection would be my first choice, unfortunately most medicated foods are also rather unpalatable - and especially so once fish are feeling unwell

From a palatability view, you might try metronidazole~food (products such as Seachem Focus are worth including if making up your own medicated foods re improved binding of active ingredient to the food portion, especially once in water)

Be careful of leaving failing fish in with the remaining group - especially given stress - as they can act as an infection source: significant daily water changes are always recommended 

Nice effort on the photos


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

alto said:


> Be careful of leaving failing fish in with the remaining group - especially given stress - as they can act as an infection source: significant daily water changes are always recommended
> 
> Nice effort on the photos



Thanks, I will try catch the fish with the wound and move it another tank if possible, dont want to infect the other fish.
In the shop they looked about the same, tho was hard to really get a great look at them, they where in a tiny bare bottom tank with lots of other fish, they didnt display great colours but this is the only time ive ever seen this fish in my area so I brought them. 

I will keep a close eye on colour of the fish, the flash of the camera probably didnt help with stressing them out, also I was just working on the tank installing a second filter which probably stressed them.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## CooKieS

They look very pale for now, let them adapt to the new tank and micagemmae should look awesome


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Quick iphone video below, I dropped a wafer pellet just at the end of the "high flow" section of the tank, interesting to watch the minnows nip at the wafer, it eventually blows down the tank but gives you a good idea of the current / flow, fairly strong across the front glass, and water is generally moving left to right but they have lots of places to chill out of the main current. They generally dont swim right up to the outlets but often surf around this mid point.


----------



## MJF90

Nice vid! they are definitely struggling with the current


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

MJF90 said:


> Nice vid! they are definitely struggling with the current



Cheers, I dont think they are particularly struggling, they have started to swim up against the flow to reach the other side, I added a aerator to one of the outlets today and you can see the jet of flow from the outlet dies off at the half way point. Should be good for some hillstream loaches soon!


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

I added a aerator / venturi nozzle to the smaller outlet (12/16mm) its really jetting water now, I will be changing the 12/16 pipes to 16/22 when they arrive but will keep the aerator on one outlet, here is a photo mid water change, makes me want to keep the water level low, should be set to get some hillstream loaches when the rocks develop some algae, probably need to increase the light level, running at 20% at the moment for 7 hours, tho one hour ramp up and 1 hour ramp down.


----------



## Tim Harrison

That's looking great.You've managed to produce a river scape every bit as good as Oliver's, and your minnows look like they are right at home. Overall this has developed in to a fantastic thread.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Tim Harrison said:


> That's looking great.You've managed to produce a river scape every bit as good as Oliver's, and your minnows look like they are right at home. Overall this has developed in to a fantastic thread.



Thanks for the kind words! I will keep tweaking the tank and updating the tread!


----------



## castle

doylecolmdoyle said:


> IMG_1422 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



Really is my favourite aquarium on here at the moment. Rock placements is very good, almost like it’s been taken straight from one of my local streams.

Obviously dimensions of tank play a significant part. If doing something like this myself - which I think you’ve got spot on - the length of the tank almost has to be 7 or 8 times the length of the height.

If you don’t mind me asking, where did you source your stones? I only have flint and chalk round my way (Norwich, Norfolk).


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> I should easily get 30x turn over which is what I have read is the min for hillstream loaches



Your tank is beautiful I must say! I love it. 

I just wanted to say you will have trouble feeding them with that much flow. They actually don't need it. What they need is an oxygenated tank. I have a group of Beaufortia Kweichowensis that have been living in a standard low tech planted tank with high flow about 20x but some of it gets lost due to the heavy vegetation.  I feed them small NLS pellets as a staple. They love sifting the sand for them.

A month ago I set up a tub for a new group of hillstreams Gastromyzon Ctenocephalus and a contaminant Gastromyzon Scitulus. I set up the tank the day I bought them because it was an impulse buy, with cycled media from my pond, new sand, new stones, lots of water changes and lots of light. After 4 weeks(15 to 18hrs of light) my stones are now green but of course my anubias got destroyed with algae so it had to be moved. I think slow growing plants in a hillstream high light tank is a no no and without the light you won't grow enough algae for the loaches to stay healthy.  I have a large emersed pot with a peace lily in my tank and I think that'll be the only plant that can grow with that much light. The green stones are nice but not algae ridden plants....

The loaches wouldn't touch any commercial food and I tried too many types...Mine are wild caught.(the species I have don't breed in captivity) I introduced some old stones from my pond in the mean time to give them something to eat. They fought over them....In the end I got them going on black live worms and I think they're now accidentally eating the NLS 1mm pellets I feed the black worms with. Black worms are aquatic so they live on...The loaches didn't  even touch stones covered with specialized food like repashy soilent green, neither several other types of dry food, frozen food,home made food, vegetables, etc...When you have high flow the food ends up in the end of the tank, right under the outlet....The loaches will not chase food. The food must stay put for them to eat. I know that from my beaufortia ones..And they're territorial so you need the food spread out or some will be bullied out for food.  I only have 14X filter on my latest set up  and I think it's plenty. The loaches are getting fat and seem happy. It's also best if you get a nice big group of them to spread aggression. They don't damage each other but they'll chase each other non-stop. 

Apart from that, I am jealous of your tank. It's lovely and the loaches will love it. 

Here's a couple of pics of my beauties 

G. Ctenocephalus



 


Beaufortia Kweichowensis


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction cheers for the tips, I think I will try grow some algae on rocks outdoors, I also can turn one of the filters off when feeding, here in Australia we dont have a wide range of loaches, generally they are just sold as "sucker loach" so exactly what species I will get I am unsure, one store does have some labelled as  "Borneo Sucker - Sewellia" and they are probably the loaches I will start with.

@castle the rocks are just from a land scape supplier here in Perth, Western Australia, the rocks are called "South Western Australian River Rocks" good thing is they are rather cheap at 60 cents (about 30p) a KG.


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> @sciencefiction cheers for the tips, I think I will try grow some algae on rocks outdoors, I also can turn one of the filters off when feeding, here in Australia we dont have a wide range of loaches, generally they are just sold as "sucker loach" so exactly what species I will get I am unsure, one store does have some labelled as "Borneo Sucker - Sewellia" and they are probably the loaches I will start with.



Same here really, hence the impulse buy as I had never seen the latest addition on sale. Sewellia are easy to keep and they are the only ones known to breed in captivity so far.


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> I also can turn one of the filters off when feeding,



I just wanted to say that they go round feeding for hours.  Also, because they bully each other, they won't all feed at once.


----------



## Daveslaney

Fantasic tank and thread. Love it. Well done.


----------



## Conort2

The tank looks great! I think it all depends what species you go for with the hilstream loach in regards to feeding. I know gastromyzon are more of an algae eater and can be quite difficult to feed. If you go for the sewellia these should be easier, mine eat pretty much anything and will fight the much larger garra I have off the food. I think sewellia are a good starter species if you've never kept hillstreams and the lineolata should be readily available, plus they look great.

Cheers Conor


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Snapped a photo tonight and took a shaky iphone video, still no hillstream loaches, hopefully next weekend, rocks are starting to get some algae so probably a good time to add them. Moved the Vietnamese Minnows to my outdoor tank, so now just 10 White Cloud Mountain Minnows, I will add another 10 soon. The fish are doing well and seem to like the higher flow, tho do generally hang out down the right side of the tank.

Got around to fitting the 16/22mm SS pipes along the front of the tank and it has kicked up the flow again, its really obvious how much the 12/16 SS pipes restricted the flow.

I also have some Helanthium tenellum "Micro" and Helanthium bolivianum, not 100% sure where to plant them, I think i will stick the Helanthium bolivianum behind the 3rd largest rock and remove some anubias, the tenellum "Micro" I may just dot around the left side under the filter outlets, I dont have much of both so will need to do some propagating I think.


IMG_1877 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## Tim Harrison

Really nice. Buces would enjoy it in there as well. From what I can gather they seem to be facultative rheophytes. They are found growing on the banks of streams, which I'm guessing are susceptible to flash floods.


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## sciencefiction

Very nice. I love those big round stones.....

When I was a kid I once looked at the back of the TV to check how the people I see on screen go in there.. My mother had great fun 
I think I am going to check my computer screen for the same entrance to sneak these stones out of your tank


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## doylecolmdoyle

Tim Harrison said:


> Really nice. Buces would enjoy it in there as well. From what I can gather they seem to be facultative rheophytes. They are found growing on the banks of streams, which I'm guessing are susceptible to flash floods.



Thanks, I have a few bits of buce stuck in with the anubias, its all growing pretty well.



sciencefiction said:


> Very nice. I love those big round stones.....
> 
> When I was a kid I once looked at the back of the TV to check how the people I see on screen go in there.. My mother had great fun
> I think I am going to check my computer screen for the same entrance to sneak these stones out of your tank



Haha i love the rocks too, something different and cheap only 60cents (AUD)  a kilo!


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## Sakura83

Very nice, good job! Light must be that high ?


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## doylecolmdoyle

Sakura83 said:


> Very nice, good job! Light must be that high ?



Yah I like it high like that, doesnt get in the way, also the light is rather powerful for such a low plant mass.


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## Sakura83

Very interesting setup, far more different from anything I have seen. I wonder how to do it on the top of another fish tank
I would love Neolamprologus multifasciatus in it


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## doylecolmdoyle

Quick WC video


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## doylecolmdoyle

Added 10 more WCMM, so total numbers are 20. Still no hillstream loaches, waiting for the weather to get cooler and the diatoms have disappeared from the tank so need more algae for them I think, I am starting to get some green algae on the stones closest to the window on the right side of the tank, hillstream loaches should like that but I am hoping to develop a bit more algae before I introduce them.

Here is a video from this evening


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## doylecolmdoyle

I think the fish have figure out they can catch food in the flow, now when ever I walk near the tank they all line up in the flow at about the mid point of the tank, waiting for food.

Quick iphone video.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Two male minnows showing off / trying to out do each other... still no hillstream loaches, its been so warm here in Perth lately I want to wait until its cooler to add the loaches.


----------



## sciencefiction

We don't have that problem here. It's been a horrible year, cold most of the time. I got my 3rd species of hillstreams. I think they are Pseudogastromyzon Cheni. I only bought the last 3 left in the shop. Unlike the others, these started eating fish food the first day.

Not entirely sure about the species but definitely Pseudogastromyzon and that's how mine looks:


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## doylecolmdoyle

Here is a video of last 15 minutes of my light cycle sped up to 1 minute, kind of looks like the light just switches off, there are some bigger jumps in the dimming, need to re-program the cycle I think and extend the final fade out of light. I have never been able to get the tc420 to fade out smoothly, seems to jump at about 5% light then again at about 2% light.

Camera ran out of storage space so you dont see the light fully switch off! may need to try this video again


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Added 4 "Borneo Scooters" today, unsure what exact species they are. Really cute fun to watch fish! And as expected they are loving the high flow area of the tank, managed to film one sitting above the water line... crazy fish! hopefully they dont climb out! I think I will add 2 or 4 Sewellia loaches tomorrow, I think they are a different species and a store here in Perth stock loaches labelled Sewellia's, tho a bit more expensive from this store and may well be the same kind of loaches, its hard to tell.

Here is the bad iphone video  Taken about 30 minutes after adding the loaches


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## alto

Awesome wee fish 

If you can stand it, I'd let these settle in a few days before adding more similar shape species - while they may be OK, they may also go through some aggression/posturing & these guys look very young ... can you tell if they are thin?


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## doylecolmdoyle

alto said:


> Awesome wee fish
> 
> If you can stand it, I'd let these settle in a few days before adding more similar shape species - while they may be OK, they may also go through some aggression/posturing & these guys look very young ... can you tell if they are thin?



Good tip, may be worth holding off on more loaches, tho the store I was going to visit have a sale this weekend.

They are tiny, 3 out of the four must be very young, one is larger and a lighter colour, hard to say if they are "thin" the shape of the loach makes it hard to tell, they seem to be swimming about grazing on brown algae.


----------



## alto

Hard to resist a sale 

I'd likely not 
Just have a power head ready to toss into one of your "extra" tanks if needed (assuming there's algae)


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## sciencefiction

Congrats.

I am not sure what species they are. I am a newbie hillstream keeper myself but I think they are Pseudogastromyzon of some type. Give them a couple of weeks to colour up and their dorsals and body should colour up better. If Pseudogastromyzon, they tend to breed readily in captivity   From what I've researched, you should actually add more at once to spread aggression A school of 10 minimum. And yes, they're tiny and very slow growers. I have one of the new ones that is hardly 2 cm long, a real baby loach. .


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

sciencefiction said:


> Congrats.
> 
> I am not sure what species they are. I am a newbie hillstream keeper myself but I think they are Pseudogastromyzon of some type. Give them a couple of weeks to colour up and their dorsals and body should colour up better. If Pseudogastromyzon, they tend to breed readily in captivity   From what I've researched, you should actually add more at once to spread aggression A school of 10 minimum. And yes, they're tiny and very slow growers. I have one of the new ones that is hardly 2 cm long, a real baby loach. .



Thanks such interesting fish to watch, tho kind of worrying, the biggest loach seems to like climbing the glass above the water line... concerning to watch, I dont think it is a o2 issue or high temp... maybe it is just exploring ?! I dropped the water level a bit to hopfully stop the loach from climbing over the edge.

After a bit of research I think they are Pseudogastromyzon Myersi, I think I will head back to the store I purchased these fish from and add another 4 or 8... probably best to keep the same species loaches... also they are a qtr of the price of the Sewellia loaches the other local aquarium store sells and I read sewellia can be aggressive.


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Thanks such interesting fish to watch, tho kind of worrying, the biggest loach seems to like climbing the glass above the water line... concerning to watch, I dont think it is a o2 issue or high temp... maybe it is just exploring



Watch out the first couple of weeks until the acclimate. After that they won't venture above water....


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## alto

How's the shop on quarantine, treatments?
Any chance fish may have external parasites? - itchy/irritation or short on oxygen could explain the behaviour 
I don't think it's "exploration" 
BUT it's been ages since I've been a LOL forum regular so perhaps this activity is (well) documented


----------



## sciencefiction

I don't think its anything to worry about. In the wild they climb wet stones so not out of the ordinary but being new in the tank they may try to climb up and fall over. In a while they'll figure out the limits of the tank.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Took the camera out tonight, photo overload below.

Added 2 Sewellia lineolata and 4 more "Borneo Suckers" which I found out are Pseudogastromyzon myersi, tho many of the fish have variations in markings, who is who... I dont know  The more yellow loach is a Sewellia I think, there is one big and one small Sewellia, would like to add 2 more of these guys but the store only had 2 left. They seem to have stoped climbing up around the water level and are shuffling all over the tank now, they seem to hide most of the day but came out when the light came on... which was weird! Have increased the intensity of the MML tube to try grow some more algae, tho the loaches seem to respond to algae wavers. 

The white clouds dont seem to know what to think of the loaches, occasionally darting at them and then sometimes being startled by the loaches flying about. Will make a video during the week.




IMG_2006 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_2003 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1998 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_2009 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_2008 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1985 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1980 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1978 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1973 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1965 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1960 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1915 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1912 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1906 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1905 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1904 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1902 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1901 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1897 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1898 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1951 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1947 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1942 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1952 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1940 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1935 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1929 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1927 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1926 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1925 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_1918 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> The more yellow loach is a Sewellia I think



Not sure which loach you have in mine but the  spotted loaches are Gastromyzon, either G. Ctenocephalus or G. Scitulus. I posted a picture of one of mine earlier in the thread. They are the ones with blue tails and blue dorsals.

Their natural colour is very dark brown, cream spots on top, with blue tails/dorsals and yours will colour up eventually as well. It could be your light as well giving them that odd colour.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

sciencefiction said:


> Not sure which loach you have in mine but the  spotted loaches are Gastromyzon, either G. Ctenocephalus or G. Scitulus. I posted a picture of one of mine earlier in the thread. They are the ones with blue tails and blue dorsals.
> 
> Their natural colour is very dark brown, cream spots on top, with blue tails/dorsals and yours will colour up eventually as well. It could be your light as well giving them that odd colour.



This is the loach i thought was a Sewellia - https://www.flickr.com/photos/colmdoyle/28357901888/

Seems I have 3 distinctly different looking loaches, some spotted and they do look like some kind  of Gastromyzon, then some that have more a of a stripe pattern (Pseudogastromyzon myersi) and then the 2 fish I think are Sewellia, they have a more tight dotted pattern, also I have noted what I think is the Sewellia rummaging in the sand which apparently is a trait of Sewellia


----------



## sciencefiction

The bright yellow colour on the spotted ones is a stress colour. It will change when they settle.

I am not sure what type of loach is the one on the flickr picture. It possibly also has a stress colour right now but doesn't look like Sewellia to me.

The one with the small spots, on pic 15, 16 and 18 seems to be Gastromyzon Ctenocephalus. 
Pic 12,13,14, 17,19 and 20 looks more like Gatromyzon Scitulus(bigger white spots)
Picture 9,10,11 are Pseudogastromyzon, not sure which type but maybe different from Myersi


----------



## sciencefiction

Also, have a look at Gastromyzon Zebrinis as the oens of yours I thought are Pseudogastromyzon could be that instead, especially if they also have a blue tail.

Pseudogastromyzons have yellow/red dorsals and stripy, non-coloured tails. They've got no blue on them.

If they're gastros, none will breed in captivity. It has never happened yet....They're a bit of a mystery. 

Hillstreams do hide. They love staying under stones, on the side of the stones but venture often enough to be seen and enjoyed. The first few weeks they'll be dominance chase around but after that they seem to settle.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction thanks for all the info! Yes I am sure the colour will change with a bit of time, I took the photos pretty much as soon as I added the new batch of loaches so they would have been stressed, I do really like that yellow looking loach but makes sense that it is a stress colour. Not to fussed about them not breeding, to be honest I have never got any fish I have kept to breed, not even the guppys I keep 

You are right they hide! Some times I can't see any of them and I have been checking on the floor behind the stand hoping I dont find any fish back there, but soon enough one will dart out from under / in-between a rock, occasionally they all seem to go hunting around the tank for something to eat. So glad I set this tank up!

How "cool" do you normally keep your tank with hillstream loaches? Temps are dropping here over night and I am worried about the tank getting to cold, tho I am not sure if thats a problem, min temps in Western Australia usually dont get much lower than 15c and my apartment stays much warmer than that, tho I have been keeping the window open next to the tank to keep the temp down.


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## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> to be honest I have never got any fish I have kept to breed, not even the guppys I keep



Me neither. I've never been interested in breeding fish. I am interested in keeping the ones I have healthy and happy.



doylecolmdoyle said:


> How "cool" do you normally keep your tank with hillstream loaches? Temps are dropping here over night and I am worried about the tank getting to cold,



I have a heater set at 20C. I've read they do well between 20-23C. They're cold water fish but still "tropical" cold water. The room they're in is warm because their tub is right next to a large pond that acts as a water heater so I don't think their heater ever turns on except for after a water change. Temp is around 23C right now. I cool them down at each water change but last week the temp may have been way higher as it was very warm.

They're really cool fish and very addictive. My local fish shop informed me they're getting two different species next week so I am going to check them out....I may come back with more loaches...I am in the process of setting up a bigger tank for them but for now they're in a tub 

Keep an eye on the spotted loaches if they're eating fish food. Mine didn't at all. They maybe eating some now but the only thing I've really seen them eat is dig for black worms and the algae.....My algae has grown out of hand...fairly ugly  but the fish are fat.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Thanks Sciencefiction, I need to look into fans or something to keep the tank cool during summer!


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## sciencefiction

It's probably a good idea but depending on how hot it gets and for how long, they are supposed to fair well temporarily in sub-optimal temperatures.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Quick iphone video of the loaches, I was concerned the loach on the sand was rather pale but after a fair bit of reading apparently they will change colour depending on there surroundings, patchy white spots are bad but full body colour change is ok, which seems what is happening here, yesterday the loach was yellow (after transporting home) and this morning he was back to a dull grey with lighter spots


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## sciencefiction

Unrecognizable,ha, ha. These two confused me. Yes, these at the start of the video are 2 are sewellia   

They do change colour depending on the colour of the stone and sand and I've seen online that they can go really pale when they fight. I wouldn't worry about it, they're only settling now. 
I find them rather hardy fish so far. I have a group of beaufortia that I bought a year and a half ago but the new group I bought I placed in a brand new set up I put together the day I got them. I did use cycled media and decor, etc that was in a cycled tank but still, the tank wasn't established and they made it just fine, so far...
One of my loaches got dropped by the shop attendant and by the time he picked him up from the tiled floor, he literally peeled his bottom half body. The loach still made it and fully recovered...They do like sifting the sand so try also sprinkling smaller pellets. I feed mine New Life Spectrum 1mm pellet. NLS have a nice Algae Max version as well.


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## doylecolmdoyle

sciencefiction said:


> Unrecognizable,ha, ha. These two confused me. Yes, these at the start of the video are 2 are sewellia
> 
> They do change colour depending on the colour of the stone and sand and I've seen online that they can go really pale when they fight. I wouldn't worry about it, they're only settling now.
> I find them rather hardy fish so far. I have a group of beaufortia that I bought a year and a half ago but the new group I bought I placed in a brand new set up I put together the day I got them. I did use cycled media and decor, etc that was in a cycled tank but still, the tank wasn't established and they made it just fine, so far...
> One of my loaches got dropped by the shop attendant and by the time he picked him up from the tiled floor, he literally peeled his bottom half body. The loach still made it and fully recovered...They do like sifting the sand so try also sprinkling smaller pellets. I feed mine New Life Spectrum 1mm pellet. NLS have a nice Algae Max version as well.



Great, the colour was little worrying... I was worried, but the loach seems fine now and all the other loaches have decent colour. Good to hear they can be hardy, I actually found one of the original 4 on the floor about 30 minutes after I added them, it was stiff, I assumed dead, popped it in a jar of water and just as I was thinking of how to dispose of the dead fish I noticed it breathing, put the fish back in the tank and it started to swim, I assume it survived, was one of the really small guys. I dropped the water level by a few more CM and they no longer seem interested in poking there heads out of the water along the glass.

Feeding is a concern, hard to tell if they are eating, I read like much otos if they are active and appear to be grazing on surfaces they are probably eating, I have been dropping algae wafers into the tank which seems to make them active, so they must sense the food around. The white clouds go mad for any food which is a bit annoying... Ideally I can grow some more algae and I will start farming a few rocks out doors in the sunlight. I will look into NLS Algae Max, pretty sure I have some NLS food here but I think is just the generic small fish type. I do have a heap of various foods tho only the larger wavers are algae based, the small micro pellets are a mix. I read Repashy Soilent Green is a good option, but not available in Australia, I like the idea of creating a gel mix and setting it on some rocks, I also have live micro worms which I feed my other fish a few times a week, not sure if the Loaches will go for micro worms as they generally stay suspended in the water column.... I am probably over thinking this... I am sure they will eat!


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## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> I read Repashy Soilent Green is a good option



I have that. My new gastromyzon didn't touch it at all. I tried numerous foods with them. I ended up feeding my older hillstreams Repashy and they didn't eat it fast enough. It got blown around the tank and caused a diatom outbreak. I am not personally impressed so the remainder is in the feezer. My older beaufortia much prefer the NLS pellets and they're as healthy food as one can buy.


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## Conort2

Setup and fish are looking great, one of my favourites on here. The loaches look active and healthy enough and you can see they are grazing/searching for food. They seem pretty settled. Them actively looking about for food and digging in the sand is a really good sign. I'm sure they will be picking up some particles from the algae wafers and pellets.


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## sciencefiction

I got home today with 5 of these beauties below. They're very upset right now racing the tank. They were only delivered to the shop yesterday so perhaps not such a wise idea taking them in so early.....

They've got bright blue tails and I think they are Gastromyzon Zebrinis. 

Look at my algae factory, ha, ha


----------



## sciencefiction

The more I look, the more I think the above loaches I have are Gastromyzon Ocellatus.


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## doylecolmdoyle

sciencefiction said:


> The more I look, the more I think the above loaches I have are Gastromyzon Ocellatus.



They do look very similar to the majority of loaches I have, tho I find it very hard to tell the different unless they have very unique markings (i.e. all spots or all tiger pattern like the sewellia), I wouldn't mind picking up 2 more Sewellia.

I am amazed how well these guys can hide, some times I cant see any loaches, the seem to be able to get under the biggest rock in my tank, I think they like to retreat to this hide away.


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> I am amazed how well these guys can hide



They absolutely love being under stones. Be careful if you ever lift anything out of the tank as one could still be stuck on whatever you're taking out. 

I could sometimes go and look at the tank and see no loaches whatsoever. Then I keep sitting and in no time at all I start seeing stuff. Loaches start coming out from under the stones, squabbling among themselves , moving to another stone, munching briefly on the side of the tank, etc..

From my short experience I've also noticed they see really well. They can turn their eyes in their eyeballs. Same as I used to experience with my clown loaches, when I walk into my small fishroom I can see a lot of them out and about and then in seconds, no matter how quietly I walk in, they see me and hide. 

Having said that, when I do water changes and turn off the filter, I can see almost all of them. They start moving around a lot more, not sure why, oxygen perhaps although all they're doing is fighting over stones while I do water changes...

My older bunch lives in a heavily planted tank and although I see them in and out, they hide most of the time among the plants. The moment I put food they're out in seconds, all of them fighting over the food. 

On a side note, the new bunch I got is really stunning. They have pinkish body base and dark brown stripes sort of mixture. Their tails are a mixture of red and bright electric blue. They're still settling. Today after the water change 2 started racing around the tank nervously. But from the 5 I got only one is a bit paler, but not too pale. The older bunch of Gastromyzon Ctenocephalus and G. Scitulus is very dark brown but they've been there 2 months or so.

On another note in relation to hiding, the 3 Pseudogastromyzons I got a few weeks back are the most outgoing and they don't hide at all. It seems the Gastros are quite shy in comparison but the Gastros are stunning fish. 

I wish I had set up their permanent tank. Unfortunately I'll have to fish them all out so I am sort of waiting for them to settle well before I upset them again. That means all the algae on the sides of the tank will be lost as well, so a bit of a risk as that tank holds 16 loaches right now. I hope they all make it.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Few photos, one at eye level and one from lower down, kind of cool to lay on the floor and watch the water ripple across the surface.


IMG_2051 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2045 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr

@sciencefiction agree they see very well, they are still a bit scared of me if I approach the tank quickly or move suddenly, but if I sit still for awhile soon enough they come out and dart around. I love the googly eyes on the loaches! Was watching the biggest loach (some kind of Gastro) fight the smaller Sewellia for position on the biggest rock, was interesting to watch the Gastro turned more blue, you could tell it was annoyed but the Sewellia wouldnt give up, they where basically going head to head pushing each other about.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Starting to get some nice algae... never thought I would call algae nice, tho would be great if I could grow green / brown soft algae without BBA... starting to see tiny tuffs of BBA on the rocks closest to the window in my study. Loaches seem to be enjoying the algae tho. 

Some photos below, most of the loaches didnt want to be on camera tonight, I think my camera / flash brings out more yellow than there is in the loaches, the yellow is not so noticeable by eye, they look more dark grey/brown to my eye, could be the flash stressing them bring out some yellow perhaps, they dont like being photographed and hide when I am pointing the camera right at the glass. It is fascinating how quickly they change colour tho, I managed to take a photo (first photo below... not the best photo) of two loaches fighting over a rock, these two guys went really dark / black with the banded stripes, and as soon as the fight is over go back the lighter browny grey. I saw my first blue loach today, it was fighting with a small Sewellia who didnt change colour as far as I could tell. I think they go more blue when really angry!


IMG_2067 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2078 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2076 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2077 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2073 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2064 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2079 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2072 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


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## sciencefiction

Very nice pictures. The loaches seem to be doing great.

In terms of algae. I ran my tank on full blast for 16-18 hrs a day up until a week ago. It was a new set up so that may have played a role but I got a massive diatom outbreak, which got colonized by green algae all over, including the stones, some blue green tint also indicating there's cyano as well in that mix. The manzanita wood grew humongous grey hair algae, which turned from grey to green within days after I started putting some micros. There could be tiny amounts of BBA, not sure because there's so much algae on that wood but it's not the dominant one at all. If anything, they could be some BBA on the pre-filter sponge  I also noticed the loaches started going on that sponge recently and enjoying whatever's there as well. So although it looks ugly and dirty, it works out well for the fish. I do water changes and try to clean up the sand as much as possible but it doesn't make it look clean....


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction I hear you, I want to grow algae but also want the tank to look good, double edged sword, I am only running light for about 7 hours but the tank does get a fair bit of natural sunlight.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Few more photos tonight, the loaches are probably sick of me trying to take photos of them!


IMG_2095 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2107 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2098 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2104 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2096 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2100 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2105 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


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## doylecolmdoyle

Cleaned the filters today, what a pain, a job I never enjoy, tho the filters where pretty clean, no brown sludge like in my tanks with soil, also did light gravel / sand vac and big WC, put a jet nozzle on the other outlet, I think the loaches like the extra flow. I was actually injecting co2 I thought with the huge surface movement it wouldn't effect the loaches and from what I could tell it wasn't, the drop checker was pretty much dark dark green bordering on blue most of the time. but today decided to remove the co2 / inline atomizer one less thing to worry about.

Here is a video I shot after the tank maintenance.


----------



## Konsa

Hi 
What is the inner diameter of the venturi adaptors and who is making them?
Regards Konsa


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Konsa said:


> Hi
> What is the inner diameter of the venturi adaptors and who is making them?
> Regards Konsa



Hi the venturi is by Juwel, its called OxyPlus O2 Diffusor. It fits onto 16/22 tube so inner diameter must be 22mm.


----------



## Konsa

Thanks


----------



## alto

@doylecolmdoyle 

thought you might appreciate this Gastromyzon ocellatus photo - note these shipped in as "spotted type hillstream loaches" 
(a not uncommon description for these fish on the wholesale lists  ... or if there is a Latin species name, at least a 50:50 chance of actual fish being something other )

(FB link)


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## sciencefiction

Can't see the picture Alto, but the Ocellatus are indeed really stunning fish. 
However, Doyle and I have different "ocellatus". The light base colour of mine is pinkish and the stripes are a bit different looking.


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## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction what size MM NLS pellets are you feeding to your loaches? I got some 2mm Algae Max Pellets but its hard to say if they are feeding on them, they just kind of get blown about the tank


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## sciencefiction

I put 1mm pellets normally, just in case but I'd guess 2mm would be fine too.  Mine get blown but sort of stop in front of the outlet. I have a pre-filter sponge on the intake so nothing gets in there.  This is also the area with the most loaches hanging around. I wonder if its because of food availability, It is also the area with most algae....Some of the loaches like the Gastromyzon Ctenocephalus literally sift for them, eat them and expel left overs via their gills.  The Pseudo gastros eat a bit differently and sort of munch on them just like a pleco would. 

I'd keep putting some in and remove the left overs. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my Gastro Ctenocephalus didn't eat any food at the start...And from my personal experience all the loaches seem to like the NLS pellets, at least eventually they will...


----------



## Gill

Wonder if there are any tabs that are similar to the Sera O-Nip tabs,  can be stuck to the glass so that you can monitor who is feeding on them.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Cheers @sciencefiction I watched the tank closely last night, some loaches moved right over the NLS pellets without stopping, even shrimp moved directly over them without stopping which is unusual, tho some loaches did stop and "munch" on them, I think it was the pseudo gastos, they kind of munched like a pleco would as you said above, tho it didnt really look like they where getting much from the NLS pellets, from what I can tell they stay fairly hard in the water for a fair amount of time. 2mm Pellets seem to big for them to consume whole, they sort of nuzzle them around, the 3 bigger loaches may be able to consume them whole, tho not sure if this is something loaches do. Its only the second day of NLS algae pellets, maybe more loaches will get the taste for them with time, the problem is trying to remove un-eaten foods, its pretty hard to remove.

I think I am having more success feeding pellets which break down fairly fast, I have been using tropical 3 algae tablets, I think they like them, generally hanging around the area where I drop a tablet, the tablet goes soft and breaks apart within like 10 minutes. Not sure on the quality of the ingredients, you can see the listed in the link below. 
https://www.aquaristikshop.com/aquaristic/Tropical-3-Algae-Tablets-A/172185/

@Gill the tablets above do stick to the glass but drop off fairly quickly so I have stopped trying to stick them to the glass and rather place them in a strategic location where they dont get blown around / away to much. Will look into Sera O-Nip tabs

I think they also like these Hikari pellets "sinking tropical pellets" again which go soft fairly quickly - http://www.hikari.info/tropical/t_03.html

Anyways I will continue feeding a good varity of foods, including live micro worms, surely they are eating something.


----------



## sciencefiction

For now, It's more important they start tasting something so I wouldn't worry about quality of food right now, give them whatever they prefer to eat. It could be that the smaller pellets can't stay put on one spot. I do think they don't like chasing their food much, if at all.

The below is a video of my beaufortia loaches eating. Watch the one on the glass, it's lifting the NLS pellets with its nose. He does that all the time, too lazy to sift the sand..

Sorry about the poor quality.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction Cheers for the video, my small loaches that I have seen on the pellets are not eating them whole like your big loach, they just kind of nuzzle them around, sit on them for a few seconds, I guess they could be grazing on them, not sure, I may try break a few up into smaller size and sprinkle them in.

The pellets that do blow around do settle which is good, but actually targeting a area with the small 2mm pellets is not easy


----------



## sciencefiction

They'll probably learn is my guess. If you think of it, those loaches must be wild caught as they don't breed in captivity. It will take a bit of time for them to figure how to eat fish food. Then again it is probably species dependent.


----------



## sciencefiction

I was looking at my loaches today, about the first time in at least a week. Now that there's many more, the aggression has reduced to a minimum. They're pretty much munching in couples on the same stone, or sifting the sand close to each other without the chasing or pushing.  I had read about them doing better in bigger numbers, otherwise the weakest link gets bullied out of food and I think I am seeing how that works now, that I have 16 of them in. I read everything I found about them in 3 different languages  The information is so limited and so repetitive for the most part although there are some germs language particular. 

I also didn't plant the tank on purpose but I threw in some anarcharis which I actually bought for my pond to try as my fish there are plant destroyers. It suffered for many weeks, ridden with algae, not really growing but it kept increasing it's mass and now it seems it has taken off, gotten healthier and challenging my algae  I see quite the reduction of it.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction what size is the tank you are keeping the loaches in? I am thinking about trying to get 2 more sewellia that would bring total numbers to 12. In general the fighting in my tank is nothing more than a bit of a pushing, a few loaches have particular rocks / areas they like to hold, its kind of interesting to watch, mainly the smallest sewellia, it will chase away any loach that gets to close and then the big spotted loach has an area it likes to control. I think all the small Gastros get along, they often follow each other around when on the glass or sifting in the sand. The biggest sewellia lately is staying hidden in the plants occasionally coming out. I thought I had lost it.

Good to hear plant growth is controlling your algae, I think I need to increase my light. I was able to order some repashy soilent green (should arrive monday), I will try dip some stones in the gel then let them harden and add to the tank, I have watched a few videos of a bunch of loaches feeding this way.


----------



## CooKieS

Unfortunately repashy soilent green is the only thing that my stiphodon don't touch 

Hope yours will get more interest


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@CooKieS I think sciencefiction also reported his loaches didnt touch the soilent green... hopefully I have some luck, pretty sure they are eating algae pellets etc... just thought I would give this gel a try as I like the idea of setting it on rocks. Here is a video I saw on youtube, this guys fish love the stuff.


----------



## sciencefiction

The tank is only about 100-120 litres. It's a tub actually but they'll be moved to a 300 litre eventually. I am just delaying for now to make sure all of them are eating well. I'd have to regrow all the algae again once I move them. 

The repashy doesn't stay long on the stones. With the flow, if not eaten fast enough, there's a possibility it gets blown all around the tank. Or at least that's what happened to mine.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

So I got the repashy soilent green delivered today, tried to dip smooth river stones in the hot liquid... didnt stick, poured the hot liquid mix over smooth river stones again didnt stick, finally tired pouring over lava rock and it did stick.

I put the lava rock with the soilent green green in the tank about 5 hours ago, its holding pretty well on the rough lava rock and the loaches are showing interest in it, not exactly flocking to the rock but they are interested in it and I have seen some grazing on the rock / gel mix.

Managed to capture a quick video of a few some gastro's getting into the gel. Will take the rock out when lights go out, hopefully they develop a taste for the gel, i need to get some smaller lava rocks as it doesn't seem they will eat this much food in the 6 hours the light is on.


----------



## tam

That's worked well - I tried it on rocks too and it just slid off. I'll have to get some lava rock. I've heard people dipping sticks in too, I guess they are also a little rougher.


----------



## sciencefiction

Yeah, probably that's why mine fell off as I tried it on stones. My latest addition is proving to be a really hungry bunch. I was watching them yesterday literally swallowing the NLS pellets very eagerly. They aren't even afraid of my hands and jumped on the food while I was still sprinkling it around while I had the filter off.  I think they've kicked out my other Gastros to the other side of the tank...a bit of a concern as the algae keeps diminishing. I might have to up the light duration back again as I got it down to 12 hours only and it doesn't seem to be keeping up

I am glad yours are eating well. It gets easier when you see them eat as algae isn't easy to grow, lol.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

sciencefiction said:


> Yeah, probably that's why mine fell off as I tried it on stones. My latest addition is proving to be a really hungry bunch. I was watching them yesterday literally swallowing the NLS pellets very eagerly. They aren't even afraid of my hands and jumped on the food while I was still sprinkling it around while I had the filter off.  I think they've kicked out my other Gastros to the other side of the tank...a bit of a concern as the algae keeps diminishing. I might have to up the light duration back again as I got it down to 12 hours only and it doesn't seem to be keeping up
> 
> I am glad yours are eating well. It gets easier when you see them eat as algae isn't easy to grow, lol.



Cheers, they seem to eat the Gel when they find it, tho as I said they are not going crazy for it but seem to enjoy it when they land on the lava rock, I watched the tank for another hour or so after I took the video above and other loaches tried some of the gel food, can really tell when they eat as they nuzzle / shake much more, rather than moving more slowly. My loaches are still very scared of myself and if I move to suddenly around the tank they take shelter behind the rocks where they cant be seen, one thing I did notice is they seemed to like the little cave the lava rock created when I placed it in the tank, I think I will add a few more rocks to create a few more nooks they can hide in, at the moment they retreat to the back of the tank behind plants etc.

It seems the only algae I am growing at the moment is tiny tuffs of BBA on the rocks closest to the light with a small amount of green algae on the rocks closes to the window...


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Changed my lighting schedule today, previously the light was on at 4pm ramp until 5pm, 10pm random down 11pm off. (The hours I normally see the tank, inline with all my other aquariums)

I have bumped the lighting period by a fair few hours, need to grow green algae so far I am only really growing BBA...

Light on at 8am ramp up until 12 noon, 6pm - 10pm ramp down (light is running at 50% power). Its hard to estimate how much light the ramp up and down period provide, 14 hrs of light is x3 whats I usually provide... bring on the algae!


----------



## tam

If you have spare cobbles you could pop them in a tray of water in your garden - the full sun will grow some nice algae. 

Have you considered upping the intensity for the mid period? Not sure what light you went with but I run mine 12 hours without algae. Well I got a hint on the glass in one tank this week after clearing all the floating plants.


----------



## jakkals

amazing thread to follow! many thanks!


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

tam said:


> If you have spare cobbles you could pop them in a tray of water in your garden - the full sun will grow some nice algae.
> 
> Have you considered upping the intensity for the mid period? Not sure what light you went with but I run mine 12 hours without algae. Well I got a hint on the glass in one tank this week after clearing all the floating plants.



Cheers yeah i should grow some algae outdoors, I actually have 3 tanks outside one of which grows ideal soft green algae on the glass, the other two are surprisingly algae free.

The light I have is a custom tube with 3w LEDs, controlled by a tc420 so yes I could up the intensity of the peak period, at the moment peak time is at 50% power. I will give this new lighting schedule a week or two and see how it goes.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Captured a quick video of two loaches fighting, these guys where going at it all evening, entertaining to watch, the small sewellia doesn't like anyone.



Have been reading about diatoms, I am going to dose some silica to see if I can increase the growth of diatoms for the loaches to feed on.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Took some photos this evening, love looking at the loaches close up, they have such personality. 


IMG_2245 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2235 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2266 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2242 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2239 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2236 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2234 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2233 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2268 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2267 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2264 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2262 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2259 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2258 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2257 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2255 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2251 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## CooKieS

Nice pics! 

A shame you Couldn't find some goby in your country, they would enjoy this tank


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

CooKieS said:


> Nice pics!
> 
> A shame you Couldn't find some goby in your country, they would enjoy this tank



Thanks! I do keep an eye out for Stiphodon in Australia but I dont think I will get lucky, I am actually going to start a tank shortly for Australia Desert Goby's (they wouldn't suit the river style tank)


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Starting to get some nice green algae growth, here are some updated FTS, the loaches where sleeping / hiding, seem to only come out at the end of the light cycle / late at night, I have changed my light to stay on at 1% for two hours at the end of the cycle, gives me a good chance to watch the loaches scoot about.

Pretty sure dosing silica has helped with green algae growth. Still got dots of BBA around the place but I feel with the green algae growth its slowly smothering out some of the BBA. 


IMG_2272 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2278 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2276 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2274 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## CooKieS

First Time I see someone happy with good algae growth


----------



## tam

Congrats on the nice algae growth, I think it looks great


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## doylecolmdoyle

CooKieS said:


> First Time I see someone happy with good algae growth


Cheers, the loaches need the algae they seem like picky eaters, sometimes going for pellets or gel food set on rocks but often just ignore it and munch on the rocks, the more algae the better, but I am trying to not get to much BBA, but its a struggle.



tam said:


> Congrats on the nice algae growth, I think it looks great



Cheers, I like the green look on the rocks and im sure the loaches like it.


----------



## sciencefiction

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Cheers, the loaches need the algae they seem like picky eaters, sometimes going for pellets or gel food set on rocks but often just ignore it and munch on the rocks, the more algae the better, but I am trying to not get to much BBA, but its a struggle.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers, I like the green look on the rocks and im sure the loaches like it.



My algae has almost completely died out. I removed a ton of plants to help it out again. The rocks are still green though. I am going to have to up the light back up again as well. I don't know about your part of the world but we're suffering a heatwave here and the tank's water has been rather high for weeks now. The loaches are doing fine it seems. 




sciencefiction said:


> I got home today with 5 of these beauties below. They're very upset right now racing the tank. They were only delivered to the shop yesterday so perhaps not such a wise idea taking them in so early.....
> 
> They've got bright blue tails and I think they are Gastromyzon Zebrinis.
> 
> Look at my algae factory, ha, ha



I bought 5 loaches now I got 6 of these.  Yesterday I saw a baby  I had to count several times as I could not believe it.


----------



## Edvet

When i had loaches they surprised me with some young too, they where quite big when i first noticed them.


----------



## sciencefiction

Edvet said:


> When i had loaches they surprised me with some young too, they where quite big when i first noticed them.



Due to the nice weather I hadn't spent any time around the tanks at all for quite a while apart from the water changes which I always do, but just drain and fill, pre-filter sponge wash, etc.., and I literally drop the food without looking every day.  The egeria densa was completely overgrown in this tank blocking the flow from one end, and there was some green slime algae on top of it, bubbling like crazy as well. I lucked out with a baby loach after all that. 

That same group of loaches is extremely ougoing. They don't hide at all and are very eager dry fish food eaters. They also get on very well with the 3 Pseudogastromyzons, I guess that's due to the similar markings. The lot 9(used to be 8 )  of them stay very close and literally stick together, always around the same area.  My other group of G. Ctenocephalus,however,  is totally skittish. I don't even know if all of them are alive. They always liked hiding under stones and still do. I do see them though, it's just that the behaviour is different.  

I think the heat may have played a role in the breeding.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

@sciencefiction wow congrats on the baby loach! I hope I may one see some fry / new loaches but I dont feel the tank is mature enough with free algae yet. Also I dont have sponges on my filter, in saying that I am getting many new baby shrimp so that gives me some hope.

RE the weather, I am in Perth, Australia, in summer its going to get very hot 30 - 40c I hope the heat doesn't effect the fish, I can cool my apartment with the aircon.


----------



## sciencefiction

Well, if you have aircon then you should be fine. As far as the heat here, the fish are doing just fine. There's no abnormal behaviour. They're a bit hungrier than usual though and hyper active  
I have a small tank near the window and the water was super hot in it, so hot, it prompted me too look around if the critters are alive. The tank is getting sunshine directly. The inhabitants are shrimp and snails.  I thought they'd perish really but they're acting normal. It's really strange that shrimp can take such high heat as the same tank goes down to as low as 12-15C in the winter and the shrimp survive all year round. They're really tough little creatures.


----------



## Sarpijk

In my short experience Sewelias are more hardy than Gastromyzon sp. when it comes to temperature.


----------



## Nubias

Looks amazing


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Here is a bad iphone video I took today while doing a water change, i really like the water at this level but is a bit noisey, the loaches are hiding as I was just poking around in the tank.


----------



## Marc Davis

Really nice mate. Liking the simpler scapes more and more and with dimensions like this, I'm sure you see some really interesting behaviour from the fish...which is really what it's all about.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Shot a nice long (10 minutes) video tonight, the loaches where out and about. Some of the focus isnt great as it was towards the end of my light cycle and had to use a low f-stop to expose the video


----------



## Wulfen

Looks amazing. Loving the hillstream loach


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Took a few photos of the more illusive loaches with the lights out but flash on the camera, worked pretty well surprisingly. The big sewellia only comes out when the light is below 5%, interestingly the small sewellia is out and about pretty much all day.


IMG_2318 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2311 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2307 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2332 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_2331 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## Marc Davis

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Took a few photos of the more illusive loaches with the lights out but flash on the camera, worked pretty well surprisingly. The big sewellia only comes out when the light is below 5%, interestingly the small sewellia is out and about pretty much all day.
> 
> 
> IMG_2318 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr
> 
> 
> IMG_2311 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr
> 
> 
> IMG_2307 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr
> 
> 
> IMG_2332 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr
> 
> 
> IMG_2331 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


Great photos. The last GWCMM made me laugh. I dont know why haha


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Got a new camera lens today, probably not so useful for taking photos of fish / tanks.... 8mm fisheye! 


IMG_2460 by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Got another new lens this week, thought I would test it out with a photo of this tank, have to say I am not that impressed with the sharpness of the lens, its a Samyang 14mm f2.8, I purchased because I want to try my hand at some astrophotography, mainly just want a photo of the milky way... apparently the samyang lenses are not focus collaborated from the factory, so I will go at it with a tiny screwdriver and see if I can improve the focus / sharpness. The 8mm Samyang I got last week also isn't the best with foucsing, they are both fully manual and cheap, i guess you get what you pay for, the Canon 24mm f/2.8 pancake lens I usual use for FTS is way way way (way) sharper and retails for half the price of the samyang lenses...

Anyways this isnt a photography forum but I know some of you have an interest in photography... here is the photo of the tank.




IMG_2916-Edit.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr

Some updates regarding the tank. I lost my first loach last week, the smallest sewellia, which was really sad, it was my favourite loach and the most active of them all. It I found the dead loach maybe 5 or so hours after i hit some BBA with H2o2, I use the strong 50% stuff, I think perhaps the loach got hit with some of the h2o2 directly, it was a fresh bottle and i guess too strong, thats the only thing I can think off, all the other fish where fine. Poor sewellia 

As you can see I have let the frogbit go a bit crazy, it grows super fast in this tank, it kind of ugly and shadows half the tank but the white cloud minnows seem to like the cover, I think they have coloured up more with the extra cover, snails have also gone crazy in this tank, probably from over feeding but I can live with that.

I cant find any more sewellia loaches anywhere in Perth, so I think I may add a few more Pseudo gastro's which are easier to find in Perth / Australia.


----------



## Edvet

Not the best name in photography sadly


----------



## tam

Sorry for your loss 

You could try one of the other floating species, see if there is one you like the look of better. I think salvina or red root floaters (if you don't mind the pink/red colour) are neater looking.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Edvet said:


> Not the best name in photography sadly



Yah not the best, but i picked up both lenses cheap second hand, I cant really complain... but I will  Many tutorials / posts on line with people complaining about the focus ring calibration, seems to be a easy enough fix.



tam said:


> Sorry for your loss
> 
> You could try one of the other floating species, see if there is one you like the look of better. I think salvina or red root floaters (if you don't mind the pink/red colour) are neater looking.



Unfortunately in Australia we are pretty limited with the species of plants we can get, basically nothing can be imported, Amazonian frogbit is actually outlawed in most states of Australia as it is a invasive species. Pretty sure we dont have salvina or red root floaters over here.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





doylecolmdoyle said:


> As you can see I have let the frogbit go a bit crazy, it grows super fast in this tank, it kind of ugly and shadows half the tank but the white cloud minnows seem to like the cover, I think they have coloured up more with the extra cover, snails have also gone crazy in this tank, probably from over feeding but I can live with that.


It is doing a good job, personally I'd be willing to put up with a lack of aesthetics, for me it is always "_function over form"_  where high water quality is required. 

Also I don't think you have any other floating options, with the exception of the native _Azolla spp. (A. pinnata_ & _A. filiculoides_).





tam said:


> I think salvina or red root floaters (if you don't mind the pink/red colour) are neater looking.


Red root floater (_Phyllanthus fluitans_) definitely doesn't enjoy high flow. _Salvinia auriculata _group would be an option, but is on the <"banned list in Australia"> as @doylecolmdoyle suspected.

Water Lettuce _Pistia stratiotes_ would be an option, it does the same job (and it has recently been found that it is native to Northern Territory and N. Queensland), but it is named as an <"invasive alien in the 2014 act">. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Cheers Darrel, good information, I agree frogbit does a good job of many things, actually have it in all my tanks, I did look into Red Root Floaters when I first saw them online, I do like the look of that plant. I think I have seen Water Lettuce for sale in Western Australia but never kept any. Someone once told me to add some frogbit when I was having algae issues with my very first aquarium, it was good advice.


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Frogbit is taking over, this photo was shot with the MML LED Tube at 2%, I ramp the light down to 2 and then 1% for the last few hours, this is the most interesting time to watch the tank. The photo looks much lighter than it really is.


IMG_2942.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Added 4 more loaches, where just labeled "Borneo Suckers" not to sure what they are, Pseudo gastro's I am pretty sure, will try some macro shots during the week. 

Here is a FTS, the new loaches seem to have interested the existing loaches, much more activity today.


IMG_3000-Edit.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## Zeus.

doylecolmdoyle said:


> The photo looks much lighter than it really is.



Cameras and phones don't do any justice for 'Twilight shots'  IME either


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Some photos of the new loaches, not the best photos taken in the day light with a flash, the new loaches hang out in the open all day, as opposed to the original loaches hide during the day and come out at night...

I can see one is missing a chunk near its head, poor guy, the young guy trying to catch the loaches in the store had some issues, was trying to use his fingers to get it off the glass, I told him to use a credit card and gave him one of my cards and he was able to slide the loach of the glass, I am guessing the damage happened when the guy was trying to pick the loach of the glass with his fingers, do you guys think it will recover? You can see the damage in the first loach photo.

EDIT Stuffed my flickr up by updating photos via lightroom, had to remove the photos from this post....


----------



## Edvet

Should recover.


----------



## Daveslaney

Really interesting fish and tank. Well done.
Would love something along the same lines myself..


----------



## Matt @ ScapeEasy

Super photos!


----------



## rebel

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Pretty sure we dont have salvina or red root floaters over here.


Correct and Salvinia especially would be scary. Although, while we are in drought, I don't think floaters can hurt us...


----------



## Aqua360

Good work! 

I have a love/hate relationship with floaters like salvinia, but I think its just a case of keeping it in check and you can enjoy the best of both worlds, the aesthetics and the function they provide


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

I added 3 assassin snails to try control the snails in this tank, when I first put them in I watched them eat / kill a few snails but since they just seem to have buried themselves... 3 snails v's 100s of pond snails... Im probably going to need more...

Also I noticed a bunch of snails on something the other day, a dead loach, I am pretty sure it was the loach that had the injury pictured earlier... poor guy. Thats 2 loaches I have lost in the past month or so, hopefully no more.



IMG_3749.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_3755.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_3760.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_3748.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_3754.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_3753.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr



IMG_3758.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_3746.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


IMG_3743.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


----------



## Andrew Butler

doylecolmdoyle said:


> 3 snails v's 100s of pond snails... Im probably going to need more


Have you considered Esha Gastropex? I got it to treat my hydra problem but it's primary role is killing snails.
Dose it then you are just left with the empty shells to suck up.
http://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-gastropex.html


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Andrew Butler said:


> Have you considered Esha Gastropex? I got it to treat my hydra problem but it's primary role is killing snails.
> Dose it then you are just left with the empty shells to suck up.
> http://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-gastropex.html



Cheers, doesn't look like its available locally in Australia but seems like I could buy it via ebay and have it shipped in, could be worth a go, but I am always hesitant to use chemicals in a fish tank. Snails in moderation dont really bother me, but I think i overfed the tank when I first added the hillstream loaches thinking they where not eating and the snails got a bit out of control


----------



## Andrew Butler

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Cheers, doesn't look like its available locally in Australia but seems like I could buy it via ebay and have it shipped in, could be worth a go, but I am always hesitant to use chemicals in a fish tank. Snails in moderation dont really bother me, but I think i overfed the tank when I first added the hillstream loaches thinking they where not eating and the snails got a bit out of control


I know @Tim Harrison uses Gastropex for snail eradication and he seems to know his stuff.
Do you not use fertilisers in your tank; these are all chemicals. 
You could always just pick them out, I didn't find assassin snails that helpful either.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,





doylecolmdoyle said:


> Thats 2 loaches I have lost in the past month or so, hopefully no more.


Probably just co-incidence, but has the room temperature risen with the change in seasons? Also your Frogbit looks really healthy, which is usually an indicator of high nitrogen levels.





Andrew Butler said:


> Have you considered Esha Gastropex?......Dose it then you are just left with the empty shells to suck up.


I wouldn't go down the chemical route in this tank, because you have fish with a high oxygen requirement and a lot of snails. 

You run a risk that the extra ammonia (from the dead snails) will reduce the dissolved oxygen level.

cheers Darrel


----------



## doylecolmdoyle

Andrew Butler said:


> I know @Tim Harrison uses Gastropex for snail eradication and he seems to know his stuff.
> Do you not use fertilisers in your tank; these are all chemicals.
> You could always just pick them out, I didn't find assassin snails that helpful either.



Thats true, I do use ferts, not much but a few squirts of a weak all in one mix each week. So far I have to agree the assassins dont do much, I watched a pest nail crawl right across one while it was half buried in the sand  Still the Assassin snails do look nice. I need to start picking out more pest snails, just after I feed the fish I can see 100s - 1000s of snails...



dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Probably just co-incidence, but has the room temperature risen with the change in seasons? Also your Frogbit looks really healthy, which is usually an indicator of high nitrogen levels.I wouldn't go down the chemical route in this tank, because you have fish with a high oxygen requirement and a lot of snails.
> 
> You run a risk that the extra ammonia (from the dead snails) will reduce the dissolved oxygen level.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Good point RE chemicals / snail die off causing ammonia spike, I dont think I will add the Gastropex, while the snails are not the most attractive they probably do more good than harm.

RE room temp, it has gone up a few degrees, now sits at about 22c, while not to long ago it was more around 18-20c, summer is going to be a true test of how much dissolved oxygen I am getting in the water, and if the loachs cope, the tank will probably rise to 25c up to 28c on hot days, I have purchased some fans to mount on the tank, not sure if they will help much. Will run the AC in my apartment as much as possible to keep the temp down.

I will see if I can test nitrogen levels, have not tested since setting up the tank.


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## Daveslaney

Candy loaches prob wouldnt look out of place in your set up and will clear the snails in no time.


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## doylecolmdoyle

dw1305 said:


> Also your Frogbit looks really healthy, which is usually an indicator of high nitrogen levels.



Tested Nitrates, they where high, maybe 50ppm or so, hard to say with the basic test kit, still way higher than I would want, explains why the frogbit is growing like crazy, to many fish perhaps and to much food? Need to increase water changes and give the filter a good clean i think.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Added two single fans to either end of the tank as the weather is heating up in Perth, hopefully they help.

Cleared out most of the frogbit, amazing how much brighter the tank looks, gotta try keep on top of clearing it out. The flowers from the Cyperus helferi now pretty much stretch the length of the tank. 

Updated photo below. I noticed lots of dead flickr links in some posts, I tried to apply a watermark to my lightroom library and re-publish the photos, which in-turn broke all the links, crap thing is I then decided I didnt want a watermark and re-published again, lesson is if you have flickr images published on forums etc dont re-publish the images as the links with break.




IMG_3693.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


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## doylecolmdoyle

Tried to capture a timelapse of the last hour or so of my light cycle, didnt really turn out how I wanted... probably better of just capturing a few hours when the light is more powered... will give the timelapse another go soon.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





doylecolmdoyle said:


> The flowers from the Cyperus helferi now pretty much stretch the length of the tank.


They don't look like _Cyperus_ flowers, they look more like _Vallisneria.
_
cheers Darrel


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## doylecolmdoyle

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, They don't look like _Cyperus_ flowers, they look more like _Vallisneria.
> _
> cheers Darrel



Interesting, could be _Vallisneria, _I didn't realise they also put out flowers!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





doylecolmdoyle said:


> Interesting, could be _Vallisneria, _I didn't realise they also put out flowers!


They have small female flowers on a very long, thin, wavy stalk. I think some have petals (three and white), but some are petal-less.

The male flowers are bizarre, they are released from the bottom of the plant and then float freely to the surface, where they open. They are really small.

cheers Darrel


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## doylecolmdoyle

Here is a short video I shot this afternoon, the fish and loaches are gathering around an algae wafer, this kind of wafer seem to be the loaches favourite food (Tropical 3-Algae)



@dw1305 cheers for the description, sounds like _Vallisneria _flowers to me!


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## doylecolmdoyle

Recorded this 4K time lapse today, works much better than recording the fading light... It is about 1 hour compressed down to 40 seconds, watch in 4k on youtube for extra detail.



One of the loaches just gets onto the glass at the end of the video, would be cool to see what they do when on the glass... but the SD card could only hold about 1000 photos... I plan to try take a longer time lapse some day soon, need to figure out best way to managed file size, perhaps I could tether the camera to my laptop or something, also need to keep the camera powered, at the moment just runs from the battery and wouldn't last any longer than 1000 photos either way.

Also i should have put some food in the tank to louer the loaches out a bit more, you get the odd glimpse of them.


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## doylecolmdoyle

The time lapse I shot yesterday was in a weird white balance so today i shot a new sequence of images, I think it looks better, much more natural to how the tank actually looks, again in 4k if you want wnat to see the details / algae  I like that you can see tiny shrimp or maybe snails crawling on the big rock also this one captures a bit more loach activity


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## doylecolmdoyle

Quick snap with a new lens (purchased for astrophotography 12mm f2 Samyang) love that I can fit the whole tank in very easily with this wide angle lens, and going down to f2 is great for hand held low light, such as the photo below, the light would be ramping down to about 5% or less this time of the evening but still managed to get a hand held photo... 





Check out the green algae on the sand, green algae has gone crazy, the glass is covered, tho hard to tell in the photo, seems the loaches do a good job munching it down but never fully remove, if you look closely you can see the pattern they leave in the algae, kind of like qtr moon shapes, will have to see if I can get a macro shot of it.


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## aquacoen

Nice to see the videos in high quality! What did you do to reduce the amount of snails in your tank?
And do you do something special to grow the right amount of algae for your loaches? Great tank!


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## doylecolmdoyle

aquacoen said:


> Nice to see the videos in high quality! What did you do to reduce the amount of snails in your tank?
> And do you do something special to grow the right amount of algae for your loaches? Great tank!



Thanks, I had added some assassin snails, tho I do see many empty snail shells now I still have a heap of pest snails. I dont do much to control the algae, I do dose "Brightwell Aquatics SPONGEXCEL - SILICA SOLUTION" https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/spongexcel-silica-solution-brightwell-aquatics.html

It really promotes the green algae / diatom growth, tho I still got a lot of BBA, which is probably due to over feeding in the early stages of the tank, tho I cant see to kick the BBA out of the tank.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Quick update, tank is chugging along, with minimal maintenance, green algae is going hard, I havent bother cleaning the black glass for ages... as you can see, I occasionally clean the front glass but that is a bit green in this photo, the fish seem to like it, tho all the loaches where hiding when I took this photo. 

Also I shut down all my tanks apart from this tank and my 12g bookshelf blackwater.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Anyone have a sure fire way to kill BBA, its getting out of control in this tank (green algae is also out of control but I dont mind that as the loaches feed on it) Only on the hardscape is effected by BBA, plants are algae free, I dont want to remove the hardscape because the rock are heavy and kind of hold up sand where the val is planted. Tho it could be an option to remove all hardscape and either rescape or treat all hardscape out of the thank and re-build the scape.

Problem is I want to keep the green algae and I assume using the 1-2 punch method will wipe out green algae also, also going to look into no more black beard, but I am pretty sure thats just glut / excel.

I also wonder if Glut / Excel or high levels of h202 effect loaches, pretty sure they are considered scale-less fish?!

Will post a full tank shot tonight.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Kind of cleaned the glass the other week, couldn't be bothered removing pipes to do the side glass, I tired spot dosing the biggest rock with h2o2 to kill BBA and ended up spot dosing a loach who died about 2 days later... So for now I will live with the BBA until I do a rescape or pull out the rocks and soak them in a h202 solution over night.

Interestingly the loaches seem to prefer "cleanish" glass as opposed to green algae caked on, perhaps as the green algae grows its softer / attracts them more.

I removed small stones from the left of the scape as they attracted the most BBA, also removed the jet nozzles from the filter outlets, sand has since moved and exposed a cavity under the biggest rock, this is now where most of the loaches live.


IMG_8816.jpg by Colm Doyle, on Flickr


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## chrism

I have no idea how to get rid of the BBA but just wanted to say, this is a cool tank.  I love it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pepedopolous

Hi Colm.

I don't have BBA in my high flow tank and I think it's due to low intensity  light. My LED is on for 12 hours but it ramps up and down slowly with a peak of 20%.

The rocks still have an algal film and I only have a few plants. The java fern does OK but crypts and Hygrophila are stunted. I used to have much higher light and lots of Bucephelandra. However, the sand would start to go green within a week of doing a water change and the Buce got BBA quite badly. I would dip the Buce in liquid carbon and they would look as good as new. However, the BBA would always come back.

P


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## pepedopolous

Hi again.

Could you answer a quick question about your Kallax stand? Is the board on top glued on and if so, which glue did you use?

Thanks,

P


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## doylecolmdoyle

pepedopolous said:


> Hi again.
> 
> Could you answer a quick question about your Kallax stand? Is the board on top glued on and if so, which glue did you use?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> P



Gday, the board on top is not glue on, just sits on top of the two kallax stands to provide a flat surface, the weight of the tank holds it in place. Note I did brace the back of the kallax stands with 4mm flat board to prevent sideways movement.


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## Sarpijk

Do you keep any ramshorn snails? Now that I have an exploding population of them along with a ton of shrimp I hardly see any BBA. Moreover my plants have taken over, I keep many crypts and I also have a riparium planter.


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## doylecolmdoyle

No new photos as I have let maintenance slip and the tank is even more over run with BBA, but good news the loaches have been breeding, I have about 6 or so juvie loaches getting about which is exciting to see! 

I had planned on pulling the tank down and rescaping but I think I will give it a few more months to see if the breading continues


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## doylecolmdoyle

Sarpijk said:


> Do you keep any ramshorn snails? Now that I have an exploding population of them along with a ton of shrimp I hardly see any BBA. Moreover my plants have taken over, I keep many crypts and I also have a riparium planter.



Not sure if they are ramshorn but I do have alot of snails, I dont think they touch the BBA but do clean up green algae. 

The style of my tank is a double edge sword, on one hand I want green algae etc for the loaches so run high light, but high light (and bad maintenance) can cause BBA, also with the style I was going for plant mass is fairly low / slow growing


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## Andrew Butler

Do you have any updated or pics to look over?


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## doylecolmdoyle

Andrew Butler said:


> Do you have any updated or pics to look over?



Sorry guys I have shut this tank down BBA got out of control, I am in the process of setting this tank up as a blackwater "stream" tank, will create a new journal when its underway


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## Sarpijk

Oh I will miss this tank it was  really inspiring. Which of the loaches bred? The Sewelias  or some others? Have you pinned down the cause of this BBA outbreak? Maybe not enough plant mass?


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## doylecolmdoyle

Sarpijk said:


> Oh I will miss this tank it was  really inspiring. Which of the loaches bred? The Sewelias  or some others? Have you pinned down the cause of this BBA outbreak? Maybe not enough plant mass?



It was a great tank while it lasted, the algae i guess was caused by too much light, over feeding when I first got the loaches, low plant mass and bad maintenance from myself.

Was not the sewelias which bred, the sewelias (had 2 of them) actually died after a few months, unsure of the breed of loaches which bred, pretty sure it was the fish labeled Pseudogastromyzon myersi in the local aquarium store


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## Andrew Butler

doylecolmdoyle said:


> low plant mass


This is the fear I have with my "simple 'scape" once it's put into action and leads me to wonder how people with fish only aquariums keep algae at bay?


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## Zeus.

Thanks for sharing the Journey


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## doylecolmdoyle

Andrew Butler said:


> This is the fear I have with my "simple 'scape" once it's put into action and leads me to wonder how people with fish only aquariums keep algae at bay?



Keep the light very low and you will be ok, I was blasting my light at near full power for more than 12hrs a day


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## Andrew Butler

doylecolmdoyle said:


> Keep the light very low and you will be ok, I was blasting my light at near full power for more than 12hrs a day


Crikey - I wasn't thinking anything like that for light power or length!
Do you think particular inhabitants helped at all?


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## doylecolmdoyle

Andrew Butler said:


> Crikey - I wasn't thinking anything like that for light power or length!
> Do you think particular inhabitants helped at all?



As in inhabitants help to reduce algae? The main purpose of this tank was to keep hillstream loaches and they really need tank with abundant green / surface algae / diatoms which helps grow / feed Aufwuchs, the loaches then feed on the aufwuches (microorganisms). 

So basically no, the loaches dont really actually eat algae they just graze on the aufwuches which live in the algae, and in the process of trying to grow nice surface / green algae i grew BBA and could not eradicate it, the loaches seem happy enough with the tank covered in BBA and green algae but I cant stand to look at the BBA anymore so decided to pull the scape down.


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## rebel

Slightly off topic but it's irony when you try to grow anything apart from BBA, BBA grows. Yet, when one wants to grow BBA in a carpet, everything else will grow. Shows how much we know about algae. 

@doylecolmdoyle Great work with this epic tank. Hope to see more from you. I reckon go for an unusual composition with discordant elements.


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## doylecolmdoyle

Well this tank is a distant memory... but today I received a few copies of Aquarium Hobbyist Magazine with my article published!


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