# help with Algae



## pete (1 Jul 2010)

Hi everyone, anyone!,
I'm sure you've all heard this before, but i'm very new to this forum thing and aquascaping, and i need some help before i give it up as a failed attempt at perfection. to cut a long story short, i've had problems with Algae from the day i took the plunge to create a planted tank, I've received some great help from a specialist retailer and everything is great with my tank, infact i  have a pair of breeding Electric blue Rams, that bred after 5 days of being purchased! (lucky to get a female?), However, Algae Algae Algae, I've had major problems with Hair Algae which disapeared after a 7 day blackout, i then stabilised my tank by sticking to one type of minerals and only using ADA brighty K and then Step 2, along with pressurised CO2 and x4 24w T5's, staggered at x2 for whole seven hours all four for 2 hours. The Algae is back with a vengence, it has targeted the same section of tank but has gone black and strand like not green and hair like.
The stem plants are OK, but the hair grass, lillaeopsis, tennelluss and substrate at the front is covered and it doesn't pull off as easy as the hair algae did. However the HC is growing????
do you think it is targeting the week plants after the blackout? circulation? (although i have a koralia and 950lph eheim on a 140ltr tank?) or could it be that im using step 2 after a blackout, should i have used step 1 for obvious reasons? , all i Know is that i have a tank i love when i look past the algae problems.
Any help or advise would be appreciated

Pete


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## wearsbunnyslippers (1 Jul 2010)

hey pete,

algae is caused by lots of things, check out james's algae page to identify the algae you are battling with and the way of getting rid of it...

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## ceg4048 (1 Jul 2010)

Hi,
   Hair or filamentous algae is caused by poor CO2 or poor distribution of CO2. This is typically caused indirectly by excessive lighting. 100W of T5 over a 35 USG tank is excessive, unless flow and CO2 injection techniques are optimized. 

Step 1 therefore is to suspend 50% of the lighting.
Step 2 is to at least consider the application of a liquid carbon such as Excel/EasyCarbo. This will add CO2 and while also being toxic to the hair algae.
Step 3 is to review your injection technique. If you want be able to use 100W T5 over this tank then you need to consider the use of an in-line reactor.
Step 4 is to review your total flow rating. Have you met or exceeded the 10X rule?
Step 5 is to review how you distribute the total flow. You may need to manipulate the flow outlets to get better distribution to those areas that suffer.

Cheers,


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## pete (3 Jul 2010)

Thank you for your advice,  - i'm learning all the time.
I will work through your steps, i have just purchased some easycarbo, and have started to move the Koralia about, as most of the flow is around the upper layer,
can i let you know how i get on?

thanks again,

Pete


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## AverageWhiteBloke (4 Jul 2010)

I notice you mention that it is mostly at the front, I am myself battling with algae the measures posted here are slowly improving the situation. I also had the same problem as you with the same plants at the front edge what I did to combat it was as well as improve my co2 is get some water flowing around there so you can visibly see them moving by pointing the Koralia towards it, spray the Easycarbo direct onto the plants with a syringe especially at the base rather than just dosing the water and every 2 or 3 days I would disturb the gravel along the front edge. I just used my algae magnet but you need to be careful not to get little bits of gravel behind and scratch the glass.   

Worked for me anyway


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## andyh (4 Jul 2010)

pete said:
			
		

> Thank you for your advice,  - i'm learning all the time.
> I will work through your steps, i have just purchased some easycarbo, and have started to move the Koralia about, as most of the flow is around the upper layer,
> can i let you know how i get on?
> 
> ...



Listen to Ceg aka Clive, he really know his stuff.   Make sure you only run half the lights till you get things right or the problems will not go away


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Jul 2010)

Pete have a read of this from Clive also viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12101 I spent some time applying all the advice he has given me with good results for my plants but this appears not to be enough to kill existing algae as that topic will explain. Now you have your easy carbo it might be a benefit to kill it off as well as all the other methods for not making it come back which I myself will be trying this week while I still have a fair bit of Easy Carbo left.

I just don't want you making a common misconception that having good conditions for the plants will make existing algae go away.    
It appears they love these conditions as well but keeping it that way after you kill it off is good way of stopping it coming back.

Also I wouldn't put that Koralia too near the surface it will drive away CO2 quite quickly, when the plants get going this oily scum will go away by itself. Some reasons for the oil can be a build up of iron bacteria(I think) or just plain old fish foods which do contain some oil. Guppys and certain surface feeders help in breaking up the surface by pecking about for food and I have also see someone laying a sheet of kitchen towel on the surface them pulling it off which seems to take most of the oil with it.


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## pete (16 Jul 2010)

Hi Everyone, i've been away with work so i haven't responded,
Thanks for all the advice i am working my way through it, i find the science and depth of Knowledge truly amazing, its great to have all the mis conceptions clarified. 
Here's where i am - 
I immediately removed one i bar light unit to cut the lights by 50%, this has slowed the growth but not stopped it. I still have alot of dark filamentous algae growing on the tips of the wood and all over the plants. i actually think i have 2 or 3 different algaes present , BBA on the wood, fuzz/hair algae and maybe staghorn, (lucky me!)
 I visited the green machine this week which was a hike but truly worth it, to me, what a place. Its been suggested that my black filamentous algae is only going to go with a week of total blackout, this worked before, but eventual came back, which means my fundamentals are wrong.
my tank is 140 ltrs heavily planted (stems are amazing), i use 7ml of ada step2, 7ml brighty k, 2.5ml easycarbo daily, i have 48watts of t5 for 7 hours and i dose pressurised co2 via aquamedic regulator, my drop checker is light green(when placed pretty much anywhere in the tank), i have 950lph eheim, koralia nano and a new maxi jet that i'm going to place just above the diffuser low in the tank. - 
My follow up questions are -
should i do a black out?
How do i avoid getting back to this stage after the a couple of weeks

i really studied the beautiful displays at the green machine, and my set up is albeit identical,!!! - so frustrating
i have read and appreciate everyone advice and will continue to increase flow, co2 and dose easycarbo as suggested

thanks 

pete


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## ceg4048 (16 Jul 2010)

Hi Pete,
          We really need to identify exactly what algae you have, because the type of algae indicate what fundamental problem you have. If you can show us some photos that would help. If photos are not available then please compare your algae with those shown on this link=> JamesC's Algae Guide

You may need to increase the injection rate some more. You should also ensure that turn the gas on a few hours prior to lights on.

You will physically have to remove all infected leaves and continue frequent large water changes because fixing the fundamentals doesn't necessarily rid the tank of the algae that is already present.

After you identify the specific species from James' guide we can determine how to implement the corrective actions listed on the guide.

Cheers,


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## pete (19 Jul 2010)

Hi, having looked at the link its definately, x3 types of algae, - the most dominent is the hair/fuzz/cladophoria, followed by BBA and alittle bit of staghorn(god its tough to pull off!), the most visually impairing and annoying is the hair/fuzz, 
BBA is only on alittle of the wood, and the staghorn on the very top of the branches, neither of these are "smothering"the plants,
I took the wood out last week and injected Easycarbo on it, the algae is turning red - so its dying for now, but obviously couldn't get it all. i will upload some pics shortly.


thanks

Pete


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## arty (19 Jul 2010)

Hi,

"i use 7ml of ada step2, 7ml brighty k, 2.5ml easycarbo daily"

Yours fertilizing regime looks not fully completed, posibly plants feel deficiency too.
I don't see Phosphorus and Nitrogen.

Example for complete ferts like that:

ADA: Brighty K, Green Brighty STEP 2, KNO3, KH2PO4

+ You can try add little  of chelated trace mix or buy Tropica Plant Nutruition bottle , i think step 2 not fully completed traces but rich in iron.


Here fertilising sample tank with Yours ferts:
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/a ... -tree.html

Best Regards


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## pete (26 Jul 2010)

Hi, Thanks for the help, love your scape, clean and simple, about the ferts, to be honest i wasn't sure what Step 2 actually contained except for the Iron?, the tank is slowly improving with increased CO2 and Easycarbo dosing, still not happy with the flow though, its a challenge in its self to get the powerheads positioned to optimise flow etc but not to blow the plants to bits nor the CO2 diffusion? i've attached some links to my pics, taken about a week ago after 1 week of non maintenence. The best example of the algae thats still plagueing me is that on the HC,

thanks Pete




http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/114142078 ... 060/Algae5?

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/114142078 ... 5508508290




http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/114142078 ... 4460614898


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## dw1305 (26 Jul 2010)

Hi all,
It may be the colour balance of the photo's in both cases, but the algae in the HC looks like BBA (a Red algae - Rhodophyta), and your plants also look a bit chlorotic, by the general paleness of the foliage this looks like a deficiency of either potassium (K) or nitrogen (N) (if it was a deficiency of iron (Fe) or magnesium (Mg) you would tend to get dark green veins, but with light green/yellow areas between the veins). I'd trying adding some more KNO3, and they should green up fairly quickly. 

Personally I'd also got for more plant biomass as the light looks really bright (excess light is another possible cause of the chlorosis).

cheers Darrel


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2010)

It's more like staghorn algae than bba.


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## pete (26 Jul 2010)

Hi Guys, 
thanks for the quick response,
if you track the history - i think i've had a dose of most algaes!!!!!!!!!
What has come to light is that ADA step 2 doesn't contain N or P?
I dose Brighty K daily so its not that?
I agree with more mass, i'll take some more pics that show more detail, as the back of the tank is heavily planted and doing really well.

I'm at a stage where if it wasn't for the live stock - my Electric blue rams are breeding frequently, i'd dismantle and start again as i think i got it wrong from the beginning - the rest is history.
My plan is to add N and P (i have some seachem) and continue to do big water changes

going back to the algae, i've had small stag horn on the wood but removed it by soaking the wood in Easycarbo dilution, but the real hard to get rid of stuff is listed on Jamesplanted tank and it is labelled as fuzz/hair/filamentous, and cladophoria?
Whats really weird is that the HC is actually growing and yet i cant get Java moss to take? any ideas on this one?

Do you think if i add more plants and add N and P (ideas on dose for 140 ltrs) and continue to trim the leaves effected alongside mechanical removal i stand any sort of chance to pull this around??? Or, Start again now i have joined UKAPS and begun to understand the planted tank dynamics

cheers

Pete


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## vauxhallmark (26 Jul 2010)

You'll definitely be able to pull it around - no need to start again.

By the way, when you say your rams are breeding, do you mean they are raising young fish that you can sell on, or that they are getting part way through the process and then failing?

Mark


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## pete (26 Jul 2010)

Hi Mark,

Unfortunately the later!!!  i guess people would be quite interested in Electric blues? trouble is i've been so engrosed in this Algae stuff that i've neglected the fish, they are getting better, first few lays they just eat them and weren't to bothered, last time (a week ago) i couldn't put my hand in the tank!!!! The other problem is the Shrimp, catch 22,  shrimpe help with the Algae but also like ram eggs!!!, ill keep you posted thanks for confidence

pete


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## Anonymous (26 Jul 2010)

Just put the fish / inverts in another tank and do a treatment with Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2):
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... oxide.html


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## dw1305 (26 Jul 2010)

Hi all,


> It's more like staghorn algae than bba.


 Yes, I think your probably right, it looks quite substantial  grey threads whereas BBA is more like black fur, both Stagshorn and BBA are Red algae (Rhodophyta) and I've found that you tend to get them in low nutrient conditions. I usually have some of both in all my tanks.



> that ADA step 2 doesn't contain N or P?


 I'm not very up on ADA products but if this is true It looks likely to be N deficiency then, shortage of  P usually causes small dark leaves and stunting . You can buy dry powder KNO3 pretty cheaply and the extra K won't hurt (other than raising the conductivity). Here is the Fluidsensor online "dry chemicals"  link: <http://www.fluidsensoronline.com/ze..._65_69&zenid=8c43db70dfc17b1e2d3f77fffefe6c5b>.

Rams are generally hopeless parents, the best method is to put the pair in a tank with loads of java moss, but no other fish. The difficult stage is after hatching, you can loads of really tiny fry in a big cloud around the parents, and other fish just pick them off. This is the advantage of the Java moss in a tank on their own, even if the parents lose interest enough fry will find stuff to eat in the moss tangle and survive until they are big enough to eats BBS or Grindal worms. I used to feed microworms to mine, but I'm not sure that made any difference.

Other posters will disagree, but I think that one of the reasons your Rams are spawning is the low nutrient content of the water, the wild strain originally came from very warm, nutrient and base poor waters.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (27 Jul 2010)

There are so many independent factors associated with breeding success, such as TDS, cleanliness, diet, personality, overall health/comfort, hobbyist experience and so forth, that it renders assessment of the effects of nutrient levels somewhat murky. Again, this is not to say that the nutrient levels do not have an effect, or that these particular specimens will carry on breeding regardless, only that the effect has to be determined relative to the effect of other factors.

In any case, Brighty Step 2 has been reported to have no detectable N or P content, only marginal Iron levels with high levels of K. The ADA components have to be either used together as a system, or you need to better understand what each contains (as well as to understanding plants needs) so that you can make the appropriate adjustments to replace those components which are missing, otherwise you may as well use the simple salts KNO3 and KH2PO4 along with traces. Much cheaper in the long run and very effective.

You also seem to have a bout of GDA (Green Dust Algae) on the glass. This is a sure sign that basic nutrient/CO2 levels are inadequate for the selected lighting level.   

Nice television by the way.  

Cheers,


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## pete (27 Jul 2010)

Hi CEG,

I've read loads of your comments across the forum, and your a very funny man!, i found the spray bar advice very useful as flow seems and distribution seem to be a key fundamental,
 the GDA is actually filamentous it just looks like dust in the pic. - only had it once, cleaned - gone.
Thanks for the advice on the Step 2, - it was recommended so you try it! i was also sold brighty K, so it seems i'd be piling in the K but no N or P? 
I've read many discussions about powdered ferts,  can you recommend what/where to buy? i.e what are the staples? as i would definately like to be in control of what i add as opposed to guessing whats in the bottle!,
this leads me to my next question, Generally, How do people with planted tanks remineralise their RO, at the moment i use Sera salts and KH/PH up, but have used equilibrium and TMC tropical, it all seems like guess work as depending on your CO2 and maintenence routine it seems impossible to keep it constant.
I do a regular 50% water change every 6/7 days without fail, i know that a 25 litre drum of RO with 1/2 a tea spoon of salt and 7ml of KH plus gives me - KH5 and GH 4, which is about right? however if in 7 days thism is still the same and i add more remineralised water, it goes up, if i add plain RO it goes down, etc etc. i admit you can judge it to a degree but its still guess work and alot of messing about.
 I may be being alittle stupid, but please could you enlighten me to what most people do??,
cheers

Pete


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## dw1305 (27 Jul 2010)

Hi all,
Pete you can follow the advice given on "James Planted Tank", <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/EI.htm>.
It has everything you need to know - amounts, dosing regime etc. via the link:



> Estimative Index isnâ€™t about aiming for parameters, but supplying everything to a slight excess of the plants requirements. These are general parameters that plants grow well in and as long as they are reached you shouldnâ€™t have any problems.
> 
> Nitrate 20â€“30 ppm
> Phosphate 1-3 ppm
> ...


Personally I'm not interested in having either an algae free tank, or one with  fast growth for a large range of plants, so I don't add CO2 or fertilise at anything like the levels for EI., but I still need to maintain a level of plant macro and micro-nutrients, as if any nutrient is entirely missing plant growth will stop. Many "low light" plants, such as ferns, mosses (and most algae) are extremely efficient at extracting very low levels of soluble ions from solution, meaning that they can grow slowly, even in extremely nutrient poor water. When plant growth slows, and deficiency symptoms start to appear, I could play "spot the deficiency", but I don't, I just add a small amount of the macro-elements, N, P & K, a smaller amount of Fe, Ca & Mg, and a minuscule amount of all the other trace elements, it is a "belt and braces" approach, one of these elements will still be the factor limiting plant growth (usually N or K), but if I add them all I definitely have it covered.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (27 Jul 2010)

pete said:
			
		

> Hi CEG,
> Thanks for the advice on the Step 2, - it was recommended so you try it! i was also sold brighty K, so it seems i'd be piling in the K but no N or P?


All in good fun mate. The main difference between the Brighty K and the Step 2 is that little bit of Iron. If you had set up your tank in accordance with the ADA system you would have been using their sediment which is loaded with nutrients including P and massive amounts of N. Their methods depend on high nutrient loading in the sediment and minor dosing of the water column. But of course, you weren't using their NPK rich Amazonia sediment, so it's unfair to deride Step 2 for having only K and a bit of Fe. If you want to follow their methodology of lean water column dosing, to keep your conductivity down for breeding, but still want to have decent growth, then you'd have to pay more attention to substrate choice, because that is the linchpin of their methodology.



			
				pete said:
			
		

> I've read many discussions about powdered ferts,  can you recommend what/where to buy? i.e what are the staples? as i would definately like to be in control of what i add as opposed to guessing whats in the bottle!


Most of our sponsors (their logos are shown at the top of the page) sell the dry salts. Visit their webpages and cruise the fertilizer sections. You can also find great deals on the powders at Garden Direct UK Once you know what to look for, you can also find screaming deals on flea-bay. The basic nutrient salts are:
Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4)
Chelated Trace Element Mix


			
				pete said:
			
		

> ...this leads me to my next question, Generally, How do people with planted tanks remineralise their RO, at the moment i use Sera salts and KH/PH up, but have used equilibrium and TMC tropical, it all seems like guess work as depending on your CO2 and maintenence routine it seems impossible to keep it constant.


Well, normally the commercial products like Sera and Equilibrium come with specific dosing instructions on how to raise the KH and GH, and the instructions are fairly repeatable. Again, to save money, check out Remineralising Agent for RO Water I also strongly suggest that you avoid the pH buffers at all costs.
There are lots of options depending on what you want to accomplish. It's also worth checking out the thread => All about Water Hardness which is a sticky at the top of the Water Chemistry sub forum.


			
				pete said:
			
		

> I do a regular 50% water change every 6/7 days without fail, i know that a 25 litre drum of RO with 1/2 a tea spoon of salt and 7ml of KH plus gives me - KH5 and GH 4, which is about right? however if in 7 days thism is still the same and i add more remineralised water, it goes up, if i add plain RO it goes down, etc etc. i admit you can judge it to a degree but its still guess work and alot of messing about.


Well, I think you need to stop worrying about it. We don't need to control these parameters to the degree that you suppose. Remineralize your water at the water change and then forget about it until the next water change. Neither you plants nor your fish will care about the drifts that occur with pH/GH/KH over the course of the week. If you manically try to control them you will suffer stress and burnout. The tank is a living system. It produces acids, alkaline substances, organic waste, proteins, fats, all kinds of stuff. These all have an effect on the water's chemistry. Because our water volumes are so small, relative to the size of a lake or river, these products have an immediate affect on the readings, whereas in a lake there would be little impact. The fish and plants are adaptable though and they just carry on. The most important thing, which I reckon you have figured out, is to keep the tank clean with regular and large water changes. Do the basics at water change, add your nutrients and CO2 on schedule and let the water chemistry parameters fall where they may.

Be sure to visit the Tutorial sub forum where you'll see specific articles on CO2, nutrient dosing, plant maintenance and other goodies.  

Cheers,


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## AverageWhiteBloke (27 Jul 2010)

I personally I use JBL Aquadur to re-mineralise RO water as it's already in the right mix regarding KH/GH rather than trying to work both out. There are plenty of other brands available specially designed just for RO water. Like Clive says though it's not that important unless in extreme values or sudden big changes as long as you keep consistent. I add a teaspoon to 5gall of RO water in my fermenting bin before changes which results in water of about 4gh and 2kh. Every blue moon when I check hardness it may have raised slightly due to addition of magnesium in dosing and topping up evaporated water so next water change I simply put none in and back to square one.


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