# Scaping a large tank



## GillesF (14 Feb 2012)

Hi

My father has decided to get rid of his cichlids after many years. He was fed up with them digging up everything. I was able to convince him getting a planted, non co2 tank.

The tank is 150x50x55cm which is about 500 liter. It has an internal filter with a 1000 liter pump. I'd like to use George Farmer's "The Shade" as inspiration for the scape, so mainly java ferns, vallisneria, cryptocoryne, bolbitis, ... low light plants that are relatively easy to keep.

The pump will be replaced by a bigger one, I'm leaning towards 2500l/h. I was also thinking of adding an extra filter for mechanical filtration, like a second-hand JBL, to have 5000l/h in total. The problem however is that I do now know where to place the inlet and outlet. The actual filter goes from right to left so in order to create good flow I should respect this. I cannot move the internal filter because I cannot cut in glass. What would you recommend?

What about soil? At the moment there's 75kg of sand in there and I really love the effect of it creates. But sand has a low CEC rate. How will the plants grow on this?

The plan is to grow these plants without CO2 injection. I do have a spare regulator lying somewhere. Is it a good idea to inject a little CO2 under low light? Or will this increase plant waste without noticeable better growth? I want the plants to grow well without having too much work pruning, ... I have limited experience with non-CO2 tanks though.

And what would be the best way to create depth? I read in an ADA journal that you should place one piece of wood closer to front glass and one more towards the back. Any other tips?

Last but not least: which lighting for a non-CO2 tank? At the moment there's 2x36w of T8 but I think LED would look great with the sand. But I assume LED for such a large tank will be expensive?

Thanks for the help.

Best,
Gilles


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## Piece-of-fish (15 Feb 2012)

Hi, sounds like a great plan   
1. The substrate does not really matter for the plan you have. Low tech plants you will use simply wont care too much. 
If you plan it carefully you will have a winner in the end. Pay great attention to your hardscape because on the tank so big you will probably be living with it for few years. Do nice slope. I would go for 4-5 cm in front and 20cm or more at the back if you can thus you might want to add/replace your sand with something. Akadama/cat litter is great choice or just gravel. Use sand for little open areas in foreground. As much wood and rock as you can get.
2.CO2 will help big time even with low light. Do get it if you have a chance. Trust me you wont have trouble pruning plants. Gas is cheap.
3.Light wise wheather use what you got or just add one more, max 2 same bulb with cheap controller. Dont bother about LED. Better spend this money for decent plants/hardscape. I would go for 3x36 bulbs for this tank according to your goal.
Spend some time getting the composition right otherwise you will have rescaping bug kicking you too often and it is something you dont want to do every Sunday on the tank that big  8)


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## ghostsword (15 Feb 2012)

With something this large I would do following:
- gravel all over
- heavy root feeders such as crypts and echinodorus on pots with amazonia as substrate, then covered with gravel and rocks
- lots of wood and ferns on it
- co2 inline on filter output
- open space in front with some twigs and moss coming from the back


___________________________


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## ceg4048 (15 Feb 2012)

GillesF said:
			
		

> The plan is to grow these plants without CO2 injection. I do have a spare regulator lying somewhere. Is it a good idea to inject a little CO2 under low light? Or will this increase plant waste without noticeable better growth? I want the plants to grow well without having too much work pruning, ... I have limited experience with non-CO2 tanks though.


Hi Gilles,
    You should decide whether you are going low tech or high tech. Don't sit on the fence, especially with a big tank. If this were a small tank you could easily start the tank out with liquid carbon and then slowly withdraw it, but with this size it could get expensive.



			
				GillesF said:
			
		

> ...The problem however is that I do now know where to place the inlet and outlet. The actual filter goes from right to left so in order to create good flow I should respect this. I cannot move the internal filter because I cannot cut in glass. What would you recommend?


It doesn't really matter for low tech. In high tech tanks we have to be manic about flow and distribution because we are trying to force feed CO2 across the plant's external membrane, and the CO2 doesn't really want to go where we want it to go, so it has to be coerced. Also, we normally have high light which makes the accomplishment of this goal absolute, but it really isn't that important in non-enriched tanks. Do whatever is convenient.



			
				GillesF said:
			
		

> What about soil? At the moment there's 75kg of sand in there and I really love the effect of it creates. But sand has a low CEC rate. How will the plants grow on this?


This is the same as in any other planted tank. Dose the water column if you are using sand or other inert substrate. The quantities needed are very small. A pinch of NPK/micros once a week or so. If you don't want your dad to have to deal with dosing then it might be better to use a high nutrient substrate. You can use the expensive variety such as Amazonia or cheaper organic compost type soils, or an inbetween solution - clay (such as molar or kitty litter)with dry powders (or slow release fertilizer like Osmocote) placed at the bottom of the sand.



			
				GillesF said:
			
		

> ..And what would be the best way to create depth? I read in an ADA journal that you should place one piece of wood closer to front glass and one more towards the back. Any other tips?


 Lots of ways to scape, just look at examples. The classic feature is to slope the substrate from back to front. You can put fences lengthwise to keep the slope angle from washing out after a few months.



			
				GillesF said:
			
		

> ...which lighting for a non-CO2 tank? At the moment there's 2x36w of T8 but I think LED would look great with the sand. But I assume LED for such a large tank will be expensive?


[/quote]No reason to change the lighting. I guess you could use LED as long aas you have a way of dimming them, otherwise you'll have problems if they are too bright. I'd just stick with what's there now and save LED for other exciting projects.

Cheers,


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## GillesF (15 Feb 2012)

Thanks for the info everyone.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi Gilles,
> You should decide whether you are going low tech or high tech. Don't sit on the fence, especially with a big tank. If this were a small tank you could easily start the tank out with liquid carbon and then slowly withdraw it, but with this size it could get expensive.



Low tech. My father doesn't have the time, will and experience to go high tech. I'll go non CO2 then. I just thought adding CO2 with low light would fill up the tank better.



> It doesn't really matter for low tech. In high tech tanks we have to be manic about flow and distribution because we are trying to force feed CO2 across the plant's external membrane, and the CO2 doesn't really want to go where we want it to go, so it has to be coerced. Also, we normally have high light which makes the accomplishment of this goal absolute, but it really isn't that important in non-enriched tanks. Do whatever is convenient.



I'll first upgrade the internal filter then and maybe later add an extra filter or pump.



> This is the same as in any other planted tank. Dose the water column if you are using sand or other inert substrate. The quantities needed are very small. A pinch of NPK/micros once a week or so. If you don't want your dad to have to deal with dosing then it might be better to use a high nutrient substrate. You can use the expensive variety such as Amazonia or cheaper organic compost type soils, or an inbetween solution - clay (such as molar or kitty litter)with dry powders (or slow release fertilizer like Osmocote) placed at the bottom of the sand.



I'm pretty sure my father will forget about dosing so a high nutrient substrate would be great. ADA Amazonia is a no-go, way to expensive for this scape. Maybe akadama? I've already thought about sand with fertilizers but how will this work in the long run? Will the clay rot? What about laterite?



> Lots of ways to scape, just look at examples. The classic feature is to slope the substrate from back to front. You can put fences lengthwise to keep the slope angle from washing out after a few months.



I've never used fences but definitely something worth checking for this size of tank. I'm thinking of two large pieces of Red Moor wood and some stones.



> No reason to change the lighting. I guess you could use LED as long aas you have a way of dimming them, otherwise you'll have problems if they are too bright. I'd just stick with what's there now and save LED for other exciting projects.



I'm not looking to increase light but simply replacing it by LED. But LED might be too expensive indeed. I'll just replace the T8's (I don't like the colours)


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## ceg4048 (16 Feb 2012)

GillesF said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I mean, yes, of course it will, but then what? First of all your dad would have to dose and get the CO2 right during that period that you are trying to get more plant mass and then you would have to transition from CO2 to non-CO2 and that's a lot easier said than done. That's like an addict entering a drug rehabilitation center. Furthermore, you would have added all that extra gear and all that extra effort only to revert to non-CO2? The required effort in an enriched tank is proportional to the size of the tank. If you want more mass then why not do a dry start for a month or so and get more mass that way?




			
				GillesF said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure my father will forget about dosing so a high nutrient substrate would be great. ADA Amazonia is a no-go, way to expensive for this scape. Maybe akadama? I've already thought about sand with fertilizers but how will this work in the long run? Will the clay rot? What about laterite?


Well, Akadama is clay and so is laterite - but so is cat litter which is cheap. Why not just use that and line the bottom with fertilizer and a little bit of peat, or as I mentioned, you can use an organic compost or topsoil. You can always simulate Amazonia by placing a small amount of  slow release fertilizer at the bottom of an inert clay substrate. Amazonia is also clay. If you have a Bonzai nursury nearby then any of their substrates are clay. It doesn't have to be Akadama. Any no-name brand that's cheap will do the same thing.




			
				GillesF said:
			
		

> I'm not looking to increase light but simply replacing it by LED. But LED might be too expensive indeed. I'll just replace the T8's (I don't like the colours)


Yep, that's the best reason in the known world for changing the bulbs - you don't like the colors. Bravo!

Cheers,


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## GillesF (16 Feb 2012)

Hi Clive



> Well, I mean, yes, of course it will, but then what? First of all your dad would have to dose and get the CO2 right during that period that you are trying to get more plant mass and then you would have to transition from CO2 to non-CO2 and that's a lot easier said than done. That's like an addict entering a drug rehabilitation center. Furthermore, you would have added all that extra gear and all that extra effort only to revert to non-CO2? The required effort in an enriched tank is proportional to the size of the tank. If you want more mass then why not do a dry start for a month or so and get more mass that way?



No, not a transition from non-CO2 to CO2. Either low light - CO2 or low light - non CO2. But you are right about the extra gear and effort. Knowing my father, it's probably best to choose the low light - non CO2 option. 

The dry start method is very interesting. How fast do you think it would require to fill it in well enough? And how moist should it be? I've read that java fern tends to dry up quite fast.



> Well, Akadama is clay and so is laterite - but so is cat litter which is cheap. Why not just use that and line the bottom with fertilizer and a little bit of peat, or as I mentioned, you can use an organic compost or topsoil. You can always simulate Amazonia by placing a small amount of  slow release fertilizer at the bottom of an inert clay substrate. Amazonia is also clay. If you have a Bonzai nursury nearby then any of their substrates are clay. It doesn't have to be Akadama. Any no-name brand that's cheap will do the same thing.



Would be a good idea to use Akadame (or cat litter) as a bottom layer, add some fertilizers and then top it with sand for the looks?



> Yep, that's the best reason in the known world for changing the bulbs - you don't like the colors. Bravo!


[/quote][/quote]

Is that sarcasm? 

Best,
Gilles


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## Piece-of-fish (16 Feb 2012)

Regarding bulbs I think what Clive meant you can change the bulbs if you are bored of particular color (kelvins). 
It is cheap. You cannot do that with LEDs can you.
Go no co2 then but try to nail your hardscape and make accent on it,then even with little plants it will look amazing and plants will grow in slowly. For carpet get monosolenium tenerum (pelia) it will look beautiful with any amount of light and fill your tank well staying always fresh. Cant find easier plant than this to fill gaps, trust me. It does not need to be trimmed either. Mb once in 2 years in low tech. Crypts anubias ferns mosses and liverworts are your friend here.


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## GillesF (17 Feb 2012)

Is Pelia easier than Java moss?

Which foreground plants would you recommend?


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## Piece-of-fish (17 Feb 2012)

It is, use round one. It will not need to be pruned and won't suffocate itself.
Cheers.


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## GillesF (18 Feb 2012)

I'll probably use Pelia on the wood. I'm thinking of Sagittaria as a foreground plant and maybe some moss attached to rocks?

I can also get the Akadama recommended on this forum for 12£/13 liter. Good deal?


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## Piece-of-fish (21 Feb 2012)

That is good enough price for akadama. Id use pelia as a carpet (round variety) but might be difficult to get so much.
Up to you really.


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## Piece-of-fish (21 Feb 2012)

That is good enough price for akadama. Id use pelia as a carpet (round variety) but might be difficult to get so much.
Up to you really.


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## GillesF (21 Feb 2012)

I think that would look nice too but I'm not sure whether my father will like it. Does it require a lot of trimming?


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