# Staghorn driving me mad - what else can I do?



## Whitebeam (30 Aug 2010)

I've been fighting Staghorn algae for a couple of months now. The process has taught me lots and I had thought I had it beaten. Now I look in the tank and can see it creeping back onto leaves that were previously clear. It's driven me to the point of wanting to abandon having a nice tank - but I can't stand not mastering a skill once I've set out to do it, so it's just driving me bonkers. I've tried getting the dosing right, reducing the photo period and cutting off affected leaves - but I'm running out of leaves 

Please would you look at my details below and tell me is there is anything else I can try?

Yours in desperation...

Peter

*Tank:* Juwel Rekord 800.
*Volume:* Water volume above substrate, incl filter = 79cm(l) x 33.5cm(w) x 34cm(h) = 90l = 23.8USG.
*Lighting:* 2 x Juwel 18W T8 tubes 55cm usable length (1 x Warm Lite and 1 x Day Lite) 37 cm to substrate. Juwel reflectors on both tubes.
*Photo period:* 8 hours per day in two periods (07:00-11:00 and 17:00-21:00).
*Filter:* Standard internal Juwel Bioflow Super filter fitted with Bioflow 400 pump.
*Substrate:* ~3mm diameter smooth gravel.
*CO2:* D&D pressurised at about 4 bps to maintain green in drop checker loaded with homemade 4dKH. CO2 on with lights only. CO2 introduced into middle of the filter sponge column. Apparent full dissolution (no bubbles). 
*Ferts:* High nitrate tap water (to about 25ppm) and high fish load, so dosing dry ferts at 0.25g KH2PO4 and 1.0g K2SO4 Sun, Tue, & Thu; 3ml TPN and 1ml Flourish Iron Mon, Wed & Fri. AE Aqua Carbon at 9ml after water change, then 2ml daily. Total weekly macro dose = 5.82ppm PO4, 18.5ppm K, 0.39ppm Fe.
*Water change:* Weekly 50% water change on a Sunday with light vacuuming of visible gravel. Water stats at the end of the week always 25ppm < Nitrate < 50ppm. 0ppm Nitrite. 0ppm Ammonia. GH 220ppm (12dGH). KH 180ppm (10dKH). Filter media washed out in old tank water every 3 or 4 weeks.
*DÃ©cor:* Two pieces of driftwood and one piece of local flint in there since the tank was started in Feb 10.
*Fauna:* High load: 8 x Rosy Tetra, 8 x Blue Tetra, 6 x Cherry Barb, 4 x Julii Cory, 1 x Oto, 3 x Amano shrinp, 3 x Red Cherry Shrimp, 3 x Nerite Snails.
*Flora:* Hygrophila difformis, Hygrophila corymbosa 'Angustifolia', 2 x Crypt. sp., Spiral Vallis (spreading nicely). An attempt at Pogostemon helferi (slow growing, going a little brown around the edges) and an attempt at Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (has now started to spread slowly, but so badly affected by Staghorn after planting that most of the leaves had to be cut off).
*Flow:* Rio+200 to supplement flow from internal filter.

Just like ordering a breakfast in the USA, I'm sure there will be one question I have not managed to anticipate...


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## ceg4048 (30 Aug 2010)

Hi,
   Staghorn is a CO2 related algae so you need to focus your efforts in this direction. Are you turning on the gas an hour or two before the lights on? This usually helps quite a bit. You may have sufficient flow rate but what is your distribution like? You may need to increase the liquid carbon dosage or increase the bubble rate.

Cheers,


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## nayr88 (30 Aug 2010)

sorry to go off topic.

ordering breakfast in the USA is a great thing haha especially in an IHOP


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (30 Aug 2010)

Peter 

One thing I have noticed with your stats - two lighting periods, it would be advisable to have one period only, on at 15:00 and off at 21:00. Your plants will start to photosynthesis when the lights are on and then stop when the lights go off and start again when the lights come on again - there need on continuous lighting period and as Clives states switch on gas an hour or two before the lights come on and off one hour prior to the lights going off. 

Regards
paul.


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## nry (30 Aug 2010)

Sort the CO2 out as above, turn it on 2 hours before lights on and stick to a single lighting period.

If you still have issues then it could be down to poor flow.


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## Anonymous (30 Aug 2010)

"A tank with overfed fish and accumulated mulm. Dirty filter. Also disturbing dirty substrates without doing water change afterwards." - http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

Try to add an external canister filter to optimize your filtration and flow, your need to vacuum the gravel points in that direction. I don't wanna tell you what you have in your internal filter  try once for fun to vacuum the heater chamber, my first tank was a Rekord 800 .

Mike


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## CeeJay (30 Aug 2010)

Hi Whitebeam

If my understanding of your flow is the Rio(400lph)+ 200lph to supplement flow from internal filter, then you are a bit low on your flow for what is essentially a 100 litre tank. We usually aim for 10x flow rate which in your case would be at least 1000lph.


			
				Whitebeam said:
			
		

> and an attempt at Lilaeopsis brasiliensis (has now started to spread slowly, but so badly affected by Staghorn after planting that most of the leaves had to be cut off).


The clue is in the above statement  
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis is a fairly low growing grass, hence it has a bum deal by virtue of the fact that it is right at the bottom of the tank, the place most likely to suffer from a CO2 deficiency, as the CO2 is always going to try and travel upwards unless you have sufficient flow.
As previously stated, staghorn is definitely CO2 related. I had my fair share of that stuff when I started out  . 
Sort out your distribution and your staghorn will not return  
Good luck.


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## Whitebeam (31 Aug 2010)

Thanks everyone.

My lighting timer has been adjusted (is only 6 hours photo-period enough? Do I increase this once the algae has gone?) and I'm off to the local DIY store with the big orange signs this afternoon for a new timer to control the CO2 and extra flow pump, allowing me to switch these on 2 hours in advance of the lights.

Clonitza and CeeJay: I'm now lusting after a shiny Eheim external filter that I wasn't lusting after yesterday. Thanks, I think!(?). PS. Don't tell the wife 

I'll report back...

Peter

PS: If I get this right, do I expect the algae that is there to somehow disappear, or will it just stop growing and stay as it is now?


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## CeeJay (31 Aug 2010)

Hi Peter

6 hours is certainly long enough when you're battling algae. You can increase this once the algae has gone and you have everything else under control.
I've only ever managed to make two types of algae disappear and staghorn wasn't one of them   (but I'm not the most experienced round here, maybe others have). This type of algae can be quite stubborn and the best course of action would be to remove the infected leaves


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## Whitebeam (2 Sep 2010)

CeeJay said:
			
		

> If my understanding of your flow is the Rio(400lph)+ 200lph to supplement flow from internal filter, then you are a bit low on your flow for what is essentially a 100 litre tank. We usually aim for 10x flow rate which in your case would be at least 1000lph.


I can't accommodate an external filter just now, both from space and cost reasons, so I'm trying to work out how best to improve what I have. From what I've read, the 'best' setup for flow and distribution seems to be CO2 enriched water from the reactor/filter emerging into the tank from a full-width spray bar on the top of the back of the tank, aimed nearly parallel to the water's surface, so that the flow goes across the top of the tank and then circulates down the front wall and along the substrate - a sort of 'rolling flow' if you know what I mean. Is this right?

Could I pipe the output of my internal filter (powered by a notional 400lph pump) into one spray bar and include another bar, probably above it, powered by the Rio (notional 500+lph) or a Hydor Pico (notional 600lph)? Would this work and improve matters?

The next stage would be to build a Rex Grigg style reactor and place it in line with the Rio/Pico. Does anyone have a good and easy source of the necessary pipe fittings in the UK - the big orange DIY stores and their mates are rubbish for such things compared to their US cousins.



			
				Clonitza said:
			
		

> I don't wanna tell you what you have in your internal filter  try once for fun to vacuum the heater chamber


I take the point about the contents of the filter. I'll think about vacuuming the sewage out of the heater chamber next water change. I'll also get a bit of pipe so that I can catch and throw-away the first water out of the filter after each service.

Peter


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## Ray (2 Sep 2010)

My experience of Staghorn is it has to be removed. Hardscape needs scrubbing, leaves removing. Some people try spot treatment with easycarbo/flourish excel.


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## Whitebeam (2 Sep 2010)

Ray said:
			
		

> My experience of Staghorn is it has to be removed. Hardscape needs scrubbing, leaves removing. Some people try spot treatment with easycarbo/flourish excel.


Luckily I only have it on the plants. My theory, if I can stop it growing, is that I will re-scape the tank give all of the plants an H2O2 dip on the way - hopefully this will clobber it.

Peter


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## ceg4048 (2 Sep 2010)

Yeah, and you'll clobber the plants at the same time.   

Cheers,


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## Whitebeam (2 Sep 2010)

You're not a fan of H2O2 then?   

I was intending to dilute it heavily (say 1 ml per litre of water).

Peter


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## ceg4048 (2 Sep 2010)

Hi,
    No mate, I'm not a fan of any product or procedure that causes damage to plants being used on those plants. It's just not a sound technique. 

Hydrogen Peroxide is a powerful oxidizing agent. Oxidizing agents have the property of ripping electrons from other materials thereby changing the very nature of that material. This is the fundamental mechanism of it's toxicity. Primitive plants such as algae cannot cope with the loss of electrons from their cell structure so they have a higher susceptibility, however, the exact same thing happens to the cell structure of higher plants. Although plants are able to resist to some extent as they have higher mass and they do produce enzymes known as Peroxidases to neutralize low concentrations of H2O2 which are typically formed as a result of metabolic processes.

On top of everything else, people often rip the plants out of the substrate to give the dip. When this is done, contact between the root hairs and the sediment particles is lost thereby temporarily eliminating a source of nutrients when the plant is reintroduced to the substrate after the dip. The damaged plant has to adjust and reestablish it's roots in the substrate. So this is a double whammy against the very same plant which you are supposedly trying to save. It's just not nice.

You would be better off daily pruning and overdosing Excel/EasyCarbo, because at least Excel feeds plants with the product that was missing and which, through it's absence, caused them to have the staghorn in the first place. This makes them healthier while at the same time being toxic to algae.

I have the same objection to the use of Bleach, Permanganate or Algecides, because they all damage plants to some extent.

Of course I suppose much of this argument goes out the window if the plants you are trying to save are liverworts or bladderworts, all of which react negatively to Liquid Carbon as well... :? 

Cheers,


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## Whitebeam (3 Sep 2010)

An excellent argument, well put. I withdraw my proposal immediately.   

What is the current thinking on a safe level of overdose of Excel et al for a tank with Tetras, Cory's, Oto, shrimp (Cherry & Amano) and Nerite snails?

Also, for those plants that I will have to uproot to reposition, is there any merit in temporarily holding these in a bucket of an even stronger mix of Excel en route?

Sorry for all of these questions - I don't want to try your patience, but I do want to try to get this right this time.

Peter


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## nry (3 Sep 2010)

Liquid Carbon will kill this stuff off well enough even if dosed normally - double dosing for a week will give it a serious kicking, however if the root cause of the algae is not addressed it may well just return.


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## Whitebeam (3 Sep 2010)

nry said:
			
		

> ... however if the root cause of the algae is not addressed it may well just return.


Thanks - I understand that, I'm just planning my steps once I've sorted my flow and got/produced a better CO2 reactor (I just wish it was easy to get the bits for the many DIY designs in this country).

Peter


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