# Correct substrate choice?



## AndrewH (9 Jan 2013)

Hi all,

Im still in planning stages for converting my existing low tech 180L Juwel Vision tank (with lots of fish & shrimp in a community setup) to a high-tech aquascape.

Over the last week I have tried to read _EVERYTHING_ I can find on substrate choice - the pros, the cons and the experience of all you guys.
(Many thanks to, among others, George Farmer for his superb article, and ceg4048 for some superb forum posts and helping to explain the science behind it all)

Can you please double check my choice, and reasoning and make sure I haven't made any blunders (either in terms of the science, but also in terms of marketing hype!)

OK, so Ive decided to scoop out all my existing pea gravel and replace it with:
*RED SEA FLORA BASE*

Here is my reasoning:
- will be going into an existing tank so dont want an Ammonia/Nitrite spike
- is a complete substrate so doesnt need mixing or combining with a base layer
- suitable for my loaches and cats with barbels
- good CEC properties
- low(er) cost
- i want a dark brown/red substrate ideally (black is ok too)

I would have loved to use ADA Amazonia Soil and cost wise I can afford this (just!) but from the sounds of it the ammonia spike would be terrible to control and my shrimp (and fish!) would suffer.

So does RedSea FLora Base truly tick all the boxes or is there something better for my setup?

I am planning to run:
180L bow-fronted tank
2 x 36w T5 lighting
a 2Kg Co2 FE, through a glass diffuser
Ei daily dosing
50% weekly water changes (thanks LondonDragon for making this so much easier with your excellent 'superSucker' thread!)

Thanks so much guys.
Really appreciate this forum and the excellent help its giving me 

Andrew.


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## ceg4048 (9 Jan 2013)

Hi,
Thanks for the kind words. Glad you find the data useful. This is as good a choice as any. I guess you could have also used Akadama at those prices. Some report mushiness after a couple years, others that it holds it's integrity.

ADA also make 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			





 as well as






These two types are also softer clay and neither of these contain NPK so there is no issue with NH3. It's only the Amazonia that is enriched. Might want to have a look at either of those.

Cheers,


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## AndrewH (9 Jan 2013)

Thanks so much for the extra info Clive, its good to know my choice wasnt too bad!

Im very interested in the ADA soil you mention, however I have heard multiple people say that the ADA soils only last about a year before breaking down into "gloop"
Ideally, my new tank will run for years so would be keen on using a substrate that can go the distance.

What u think?


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## LondonDragon (9 Jan 2013)

AndrewH said:


> however I have heard multiple people say that the ADA soils only last about a year before breaking down into "gloop"


You will find that most all in one soils will start to crumble about a year or so, I have not seen one that doesn't (ADA, Florabase, Nature Soil, they all crumble), how kick also depends how often you mess about with the tank, I miss my gravel lol 8 years of no crumbling!!!


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## Matt Warner (9 Jan 2013)

Personally, I like to use just plain old gravel, either on its own or with a bottom layer such as the Tetra complete substrate. As mulm starts to accumulate in the gravel, you then have a natural, nutritious substrate for the plants. Plants anchor much better into normal gravel too which I like.


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## AndrewH (9 Jan 2013)

@Matty - cheers for the feedback mate. Im guessing then that you dont vac the gravel during water changes?

@Dragon - ahh ok, so its not confined to just the ADA range.

The ADA is getting my vote so far as I struggle to find anyone with a bad thing to say about it...apart from the higher price of course.


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## Matt Warner (9 Jan 2013)

> Im guessing then that you dont vac the gravel during water changes?


Nope! Mission Impossible


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## AndrewH (9 Jan 2013)

Well according to the "how much substrate do i need?" sticky on this forum, Im looking for about 18 L.
So two 9 litre bags of Africana would cost me £70 from TGM. Im happy with that cost I think,  (as long as they dont charge a fortune in postage!!) especially if it gives my tank the best chance to both look good and support the plants.


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## Ady34 (10 Jan 2013)

AndrewH said:


> Well according to the "how much substrate do i need?" sticky on this forum, Im looking for about 18 L.
> So two 9 litre bags of Africana would cost me £70 from TGM. Im happy with that cost I think,  (as long as they dont charge a fortune in postage!!) especially if it gives my tank the best chance to both look good and support the plants.


Hi Andrew,
ADA is a great substrate to use, full of nutrients and easily planted into and banked.
I've heard that Tom Barr has some which is 5 years old so it doesn't seem to break down as badly as some think. I'd imagine it all depends on how it is used/abused as to if it crumbles or not. The Amazonia I used in my first tank is in storage now as I just removed most of it, dried it out and bagged it up again. Looks good as new. another benefit of these type of substrates is their ability to absorb nutrients from the water column, meaning they can last indefinitely with good water column dosing providing nutrients to the roots even long term.
I'd say its well worth the extra cash as its an investment that allows you a little leeway regarding dosing if you travel or are away from home for a few days at a time. ill probably never use anything else purely based on my experience with its ease of use and aesthetics alone, never mind its fertilising benefits.
Some under substrate systems which need capping with gravel or sand are proven like tropica base layer, but for me this poses issues when uprooting plants and changing hardscape etc. you can end up with the base layer on top of your substrate which is unsightly. Separating the two if rescaping may also be an issue if looking long term.
Hope that helps a little more.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Ady34 (10 Jan 2013)

Oh and I think TGM have free postage on orders over £50, so won't cost you any more!


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## AndrewH (10 Jan 2013)

Hey Ady, thats brilliant to hear mate - once again, nothing but praise for the ADA soils.
I honestly cant find anyone with anything negative to say about their performance.

My mind is made up I think. Amazonia is out because of the ammonia spike it would cause, and Malaya is a bit too brown, so Africana it is! 

...I wish TGM did free postage! - we here in N.Ireland always get shafted when it comes to postage.
Despite Royal Mail considering it part of "mainland" UK and it costs the same to send a package to me as it would for you to send it down your street, shops still whack on a big surcharge for us 
_If any shops are listening... learn to use Royal Mail and not a courier and you will soon get a reputation with all the many aquarists over in Ireland (both north AND south!)_


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## foxfish (10 Jan 2013)

Same for me Andrew, I live in the Channel Islands and always get stung with P&P  the last bag of Amazonia cost £20 but I was quoted over £30 from some delivery services !


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## Ady34 (10 Jan 2013)

AndrewH said:


> Hey Ady, thats brilliant to hear mate - once again, nothing but praise for the ADA soils.
> I honestly cant find anyone with anything negative to say about their performance.
> 
> My mind is made up I think. Amazonia is out because of the ammonia spike it would cause, and Malaya is a bit too brown, so Africana it is!
> ...


Bummer about postage!
I think all ADA soils have an ammonia spike though, took this from TGM website:

*ADA Aqua Soil Africana (9 Litre)*

Click image(s) to enlarge​






​ADA Aqua Soil is the original Nature Aquarium substrate, and is*used by famous aquascaper Takashi Amano* in all his Nature Aquarium Layouts. Aqua Soil is available in 3 varieties;

*Africana*
Red-brown colour of the African rain forest, which can provide a stunning contrast against the green plants.
Relatively hard granules which are easy to handle, and ensure very clear water.
Available in: Africana 3l, Africana 9l, Africana Powder Type 3land Africana Powder Type 9l
*Malaya*
Ocher colour of the natural substrate in South East Asia.
Ideal for aquarium layouts that are designed to last for a long period.
Available in: Malaya 3l, Malaya 9l, Malaya Powder Type 3l andMalaya Powder Type 9l
*Amazonia*
Dark brown-black colour of the Amazonian Rain Forest.
Available in: Amazonia 3l, Amazonia 9l, Amazonia Powder Type 3l and Amazonia Powder Type 9l

*ADA also offer each variety in a Powder Type which has additional benefits:*

Ideal for nano/small aquariums as it creates a greater sense of scale
Ideal for carpeting plants
For more info read Why Choose ADA Aqua Soil Powder Type?
** Please note that ADA substrates are designed to release ammonia as an aid in cycling new filter media. This is in effect "fishless cycling" and is of great benefit to livestock when they are eventually added to the tank. Because of this livestock should not be added for at least three weeks and we reccomend that a large 70% water change be carried out weekly during this period. Planting will also be easier at this point as plants too do not appreciate high ammonia levels.
We are not just a website: we have a real shop full of Nature Aquarium displays, so we can offer you truly expert advice. For more help and assistance please contact us now, phone us on 01978 265 090, or visit us in store.  We have helped thousands of people learn to aquascape...and we are still counting! Or find out a little bit more about us by reading The Green Machine Experience.
View our Aquascape Journal The Power of ADA: A Do!aqua Nature Aquarium
£35.99​*£34.99​**Quantity:*​*SKU: 104-023*


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## AndrewH (10 Jan 2013)

Yeah, TGM combining all the info is crap to be honest.
That confused me too.

However, as what others have said on here, plus also this info I found online, seems to be that although all the soils are enriched to some degree, the Amazonia is the only heavily enriched one
(interstingly, Amazonia 2 is less so, maybe as a result of aquarists concerns?, I dunno)





So what do you guys think, is there still a possibility of ammonia spikes with all the ADA soil range?


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## Alastair (10 Jan 2013)

AndrewH said:


> Yeah, TGM combining all the info is crap to be honest.
> That confused me too.
> 
> However, as what others have said on here, plus also this info I found online, seems to be that although all the soils are enriched to some degree, the Amazonia is the only heavily enriched one
> ...



Amazonia 2 has been superseded by the Ada Amazonia new which is better than both the 1 and 2 and is more nutrient rich I believe. It also states it in the book of Ada but I don't have it with me to hand but copied this off the web.... 

Of all the Aqua Soil types, including the old Amazonia I & Amazonia II, Aqua Soil NEW Amazonia receives our highest recommendation for best plant growth and long term management. Designed to create the image of Amazonia. Create an aquascape depicting the fertile South American rainforest with the dynamic alternation of rainy and dry seasons. Normal and Powder Type available.

In addition to the original Aqua Soil Amazonia features, NEW Amazonia has been improved with the following:

Amazonia makes aquarium water a bit acidic. Aqua Soil lowers pH and KH, and makes an idealistic environment for plants and fish.
New Amazonia contains rich organic acid and nitrogen level. Organic substances in the soil are effective for keeping shrimp in healthy condition.
Its pebbles are hard to crumble. The humic acid helps the plant growth, and hard-to-crumble pebbles do not cause water coloring/cloudiness.


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## NatureBoy (10 Jan 2013)

Hi

Heavy clay topsoil is all I'd ever use - it's free, binds nutrients, holds together well and can be sculpted into very steep banks without collapse. I don't buy into the idea that the substrate needs to be visibly particulate, as plant's roots penetrate into heavy clay soil just fine. I even compacted the clay topsoil with a hammer, when building the hardscape!

The process and planting had a very natural feel about it, with a feeling of being on the right lines. 

About six months in and all good, and all free...


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## jack-rythm (10 Jan 2013)

NatureBoy said:


> Hi
> 
> Heavy clay topsoil is all I'd ever use - it's free, binds nutrients, holds together well and can be sculpted into very steep banks without collapse. I don't buy into the idea that the substrate needs to be visibly particulate, as plant's roots penetrate into heavy clay soil just fine. I even compacted the clay topsoil with a hammer, when building the hardscape!
> 
> ...


Did you use a particular product? Sounds interesting

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


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## greenink (10 Jan 2013)

Moler clay has all the properties you've asked for and is cheaper... See my big tank journal towards the start for all the detail.


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## NatureBoy (10 Jan 2013)

jack-rythm said:


> Did you use a particular product? Sounds interesting
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


Hi 

taken from a dried up puddly path over heavy clay topsoil in the Summer, to the left and right of the path the weed / grass growth was very lush n green, so figured it was very fertile. Close by was a stream with banks made of roughly the same soil so could see it could hold some force etc...

Then tested it for binding n holding n clear water properties in a few jars, held in steep over 45 degree slopes, basically to vertical and with clear water.

I also tested some purer clay I collected which clouded the water and is a no no in my view for aquascaping.-The right stuff has got to have a percentage humic substance to bind as I wanted...in accordance with Diana Walstad's chapter on substrates. 

gotta go girlfriend is back and she reckons I'm a geek...


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## Ady34 (10 Jan 2013)

"gotta go girlfriend is back and she reckons I'm a geek..."
Classic! Lol


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## Iain Sutherland (10 Jan 2013)

mikeappleby said:


> Moler clay has all the properties you've asked for and is cheaper... See my big tank journal towards the start for all the detail.


akadama will suit your needs perfectly.  Akadama - A cheap substrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## jack-rythm (10 Jan 2013)

I use akadama and it's very good indeed  

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## Brian Murphy (11 Jan 2013)

Andrew .... try Aquaworld.ie if you want that ADA soil ..... the postage will work out better for you. I saved near £20 than if I went with the TGM or similar. Works out at £33.73 a 9l bag and then if you are ordering 2 bags, you will get free postage on orders over 59euros.  Not often ordering from the south works out cheaper lol


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## AndrewH (11 Jan 2013)

Murf said:


> Andrew .... try Aquaworld.ie if you want that ADA soil ..... the postage will work out better for you. I saved near £20 than if I went with the TGM or similar.


 
Thanks a million Murf, thats great news!
Will give them a shout.


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