# Lighting Advice Needed



## mark4785 (6 Aug 2012)

I currently own a planted aquarium which has two 22 inch 24w high output fluorescent tubes by Hagen. I have tried two kinds of bulb with the above specifications called 'PowerGlo' (found here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HAGEN-POWER-G ... 500wt_1056 ) and 'LifeGlo' (found here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HAGEN-LIFE-GL ... 500wt_1056).

When using a pair of either of these kinds of light, white particles begin to develop and attach to the aquarium glass, filter and leaves and choke the plants. There is also a green algae that develops on the glass. This is despite having an optimum level of co2 diffusion, 50 ppm of nitrate and ample amounts of phosphate.

Given the above, I'm adamant that my light levels are too high. Problem is, I don't know how to lower the light levels. Do I look for a bulb with lower wattage or lower PAR? 

I have 120 litres of water and 48w worth of light. 120 litres converted to gallons is 26 UK gallons so 48 watts divided by 26 UK gallons equates to 1.846 watts per gallon. Is this high light or low light?


Any advice or fluorescent bulb recommendations would be very much appreciated as I desperately need to lower the light levels to stop algae growth. Note: I do have plants in the aquarium that require high light (i.e. limnophillia sessiliflora - this plant is not growing too well currently) so I can't drop the light levels too much.


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## ceg4048 (6 Aug 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> ...I do have plants in the aquarium that require high light (i.e. limnophillia sessiliflora


No there is no such thing. This is another myth. There are no plants that need high light. That's what gets us into trouble in the first place.


			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> . - this plant is not growing too well currently)


Due to poor CO2 for that lighting level, no doubt. 


			
				mark4785 said:
			
		

> ...so I can't drop the light levels too much.


Yes, you can mate.

It is unlikely that you will find bulbs with significantly lower PAR that fit the same ballast and fixture. If disabling a bulb is not an option then what you need to do is to obfuscate the light entering the tank using any form of barrier you have. Dark acrylic, or even cheesecloth will do the trick until you work out your CO2/flow issue.

Regardless of whether anyone calls this configuration high light or low light it's clear that there is an infrastructure issues causing problems. It's impossible to consider that one has an "optimum level of CO2 diffusion" if the plants are clearly exhibiting a CO2 deficiency syndrome.

Cheers,


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## mark4785 (7 Aug 2012)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> mark4785 said:
> 
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How is it clearly a co2 deficiency causing the issue with the Limonphilia when I'm making use of a diffuser which provides a fine mist of bubbles, which in turn float across the tank in all directions, and results in the drop-checker turning a lime green colour. Anymore co2 entering this tank will risk the health of the fish as has happened once or twice on upping the co2 entering the tank using the pressure reducer. This is what really frustrates me; being advised that I should up the co2 concentration (when I can't for the sake of the fish) and that flow isn't adequate when the drop-checker indicates otherwise.

Would you like me to provide a video recording of the aquarium showing the drop-checker, bubble counter and power-heads (to demonstrate flow direction) so that everything in my set-up can be subjected to critique in order to find the issue at hand here? I for one am getting sick to death of algae and constantly throwing out dead plants despite doing my utmost. I need somebody with a little bit of experience just to tell me what I'm doing wrong here because I'm clearly useless at this hobby.


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## darren636 (7 Aug 2012)

stick a picture up. The answers are right here. We just have to find them.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (7 Aug 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
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> 
> 
> ...




Whoa buddy,
Thats what makes it a hobby, because you learn as you go on. If you cannot 'up the Co2' then down the lights by either, as clive rightly (as he is 110% of the time..  ) said.

This can be done by obscuring one lighting, as stated or to also increase the distance between the lights and the substrate ie. lifting it away from surface of the tank.

Don't start fretting about being useless, we have all learned (and still learning!) from somewhere, which is why your doing the EXACT thing you should be doing. By asking for help.

At your disposal are some of the worlds finest minds, ask the right questions & get the right answers.

Hope you sort it,


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## hinch (7 Aug 2012)

thing to remember is a drop checker only measures co2 at that one point in the tank thats why we have to ensure good flow around the entire tank.
what I tend to do is use dechlonineator solution and drip it in along my spray bar and because it doesn't disolve immediately i can see where abouts is getting good flow or bad flow.   If you're saying your co2 is as high as you can put it then look to make more efficient use of the co2 you have in there at the moment.


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## darren636 (7 Aug 2012)

ha ha! If you think your tank is bad- you should have seen mine after i got back from holiday


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## mark4785 (9 Aug 2012)

Well I've uploaded numerous photos of the algae and white particles and attached those below. I've also incorporated a 3 minute video showing the particles, algae and the flow. It would seem that these 'white particles' are the most prominent in the middle areas of the tank, layering the leaves of many plants (there is also a lot of these particles stuck to the filter) while a layer of greenish algae is coating the back pane of glass. Limnophila doesn't look very bushy; I suspect the white particles are killing it (only the top half of the plant looks at it's best because either the faster surface flow is knocking the bits off or the flow contains ample co2 and nutrients). If I can get the particles of the Limnophila plant, it will hopefully flourish and stop the back pane algae from growing.

The foreground plant named Marsilea Hirsuta is growing and spreading very quickly and has no particles/algae. I find this strange and can't explain the discrepancy.

In summary, the white particle issue needs to be rectified first. I don't know where to start though in terms of getting rid of this other than re-introducing Amazon Frogbit (surface floater) which will stop particle formation and algae, but will also kill all the hair grasses, the Marsila hirsuta and most of the cryptocoryne plants (I know this to be fact based on past experience).

Images:












































Video
Video should be 480p as HD movies take too long to upload
Click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhqwS4FhJ7w&feature=youtu.be if video doesn't load.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhqwS4Fh ... be/youtube


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## mark4785 (9 Aug 2012)

Bump.


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## mark4785 (11 Aug 2012)

Any recommendations on what I could change to stop the white particles from growing?

A plant which I recently introduced (cryptocoryne wendti green) is growing well and has no white particle growth. Given this, if I were to do a blackout on the tank, would the white particles die back off of all the plants and cease to grow? I think the liquid carbon has stopped the white particles taking hold on this newly introduced plant (just speculating at this point though).


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (11 Aug 2012)

The point at which you Zoom in on I believe a Cryptocoryne ( just had quick look!) at 3:02 looks to be a co2 deficiency or seems to be too much lighting?

Are the white particles actually growing? Or are they part of the top layer of skin from leaf ? Possibly with the light intensity, causing it to break down.

I can't really see from my phone though mate, it looks ridiculously fustrating. 
Reduce lighting and go from there buddy?


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> The point at which you Zoom in on I believe a Cryptocoryne ( just had quick look!) at 3:02 looks to be a co2 deficiency or seems to be too much lighting?
> 
> Are the white particles actually growing? Or are they part of the top layer of skin from leaf ? Possibly with the light intensity, causing it to break down.
> 
> ...



I really don't know what to do as some are saying the particles are forming because of co2 deficiency while others are saying its due to the lighting. Reducing the light level kills off about 40% of the plants I have in there (from having reduced the light level before).

The particles aren't growing and I don't know where it is coming from.

Is this a flow problem or a light problem?


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

Is your water very hard? I seem to remember that in highlight tanks calcium can form on leaf surfaces if the water is hard.


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## darren636 (12 Aug 2012)

can you wipe away these white things?


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Hi
How long is the aquarium been running?
How much water do you change and how often?
Get some floating plants.
hoggie


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

"iogenic decalcification is when there is a deficiency in CO2 in the water. The plants take the Carbonates and break them down into CO2 and precipitates carbonates. What this means in your tank is that the pH will rise and you will see calciumcarbonate deposits on the leaves of your plants. Calcium deposits look like a coating of "white powder". If left unchecked for an extended period what will eventually happen is; the KH of your water will drop to dangerously low levels and you will suffer a pH crash! To avoid this, the addition of CO2 is recommended." I'm not sure if this is related, perhaps Ceg may chime in but this is my gut instinct from what you describe. 

Source:http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-04/plantsetup.shtml (doesn't offer a fix however just the above explanation).


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Is your water very hard? I seem to remember that in highlight tanks calcium can form on leaf surfaces if the water is hard.



My water hardness is 6dH


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi
> How long is the aquarium been running?
> How much water do you change and how often?
> Get some floating plants.
> hoggie



Its been running for 2.5 years and I do a 50% water change every friday. As said, floating plants will kill most of the plants that I (due to the shade created) have and want to grow without this white particle adherence.


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> can you wipe away these white things?



Yes, they come off easily. It's as though some person has come along and tapped a salt pot over the aquarium while I weren't looking...


"iogenic decalcification is when there is a deficiency in CO2 in the water. The plants take the Carbonates and break them down into CO2 and precipitates carbonates. What this means in your tank is that the pH will rise and you will see calciumcarbonate deposits on the leaves of your plants. Calcium deposits look like a coating of "white powder". If left unchecked for an extended period what will eventually happen is; the KH of your water will drop to dangerously low levels and you will suffer a pH crash! To avoid this, the addition of CO2 is recommended." I'm not sure if this is related, perhaps Ceg may chime in but this is my gut instinct from what you describe. 

Source:http://www.discusnews.com/article/cat-04/plantsetup.shtml (doesn't offer a fix however just the above explanation).

You could may well be right but I don't have the expertise to accept or deny that explanation. The PH definitely will rise between 12:00 am (this is when the timer shuts off the co2 supply) and 2:00 pm (this is when the timer kick starts the co2 supply). The level of co2 and the schedule of dosing of co2 was the same when I had Amazon Frogbit blocking out some of the PAR and I never had a case of iogenic decalcification. It only came about when the light levels were increased.


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

Hmmm. Looking at the photos again you've definitely got insufficient co2 hence the algaes and I suspect this build up but if even the finest of trimming is causing lethargy then I'm at a loss at what to suggest other than perhaps a fresh set up to restart the system as it were.


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Looking at the photos again you've definitely got insufficient co2 hence the algaes and I suspect this build up but if even the finest of trimming is causing lethargy then I'm at a loss at what to suggest other than perhaps a fresh set up to restart the system as it were.



2 co2 bubbles per second are entering the tank so do you mean there is a flow issue? This is what somebody speculated earlier in the thread and I've been wondering ever since how to improve the flow. If 2 powerheads don't bring about evenly distributed co2 flow, what will?

I do have green dust algae at a height of 2-3cm on the front pane of glass and at the back pane of glass. This is undoubtedly caused by a flow issue. *But what I want to get rid of are the white particles growing everywhere as I 'm stumped as to how to tackle those...*


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (12 Aug 2012)

It all comes down to whats previously been stated by the looks, lower your lights or up your co2.

Still!


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> It all comes down to whats previously been stated by the looks, lower your lights or up your co2.
> 
> Still!



You do mean better co2 distribution, right? Theres a lot of co2 going in and upping it anymore affects the behaviour of all the fish.

Nobody has confirmed that the white particles are an algae   ...


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Hi
Have you checked your filter media?
Cleaned your filter?
Your crypts are suffering from melt.
This could be due to a large water change where the parameters haven't been in a tolerable level.
It could be a number of issues that's set that melt off.
I would cut remove all the affected leaves.
I have experienced this myself it can be quite concerting but I was brutal and did a complete removal of all leaves on the crypts.
The recovered after 4/6 weeks.
hoggie


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

Bubble mean nothing I'm afraid, my old nano ran 3bps and that was only 3gallons, this is down to the variability of bubble sizes between counters. For your tank size I would expect much more than 2bps on instinct. If you've a drop checker this would be a better but still imperfect indication of what your levels of co2 actually are. Distribution I don't think is the issue, I think it's the actual levels of co2 in the tank, algae is a hint that somethings a miss with co2 as is poor health in plants. The actual concentration in the water needs to be increased to see benefits, damaged leaves too need to be cut out, they won't repair and will only heamorage organic matter into the water column further exacerbating any algae issues.

I'm not sure the white particles are an algae, potentially a bacteria, potentially a precipitate of calcium.


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi
> Have you checked your filter media?
> Cleaned your filter?
> Your crypts are suffering from melt.
> ...



The filter media is dipped in a bucket of tank water every 7 days. Staghorns and detritus are completely removed. I do do 50% water changes every 7 days. I replace tank water with a PH of 6.0 with dechlorinated tap water with a PH of 7.4. I follow an EI dosing regime which suggests doing a 50% W/C. Is this intolerable to the Crypts?


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

That the particles only appeared when you upped the light would suggest further more that it is a co2 related issue, ie too little. Lowering the light lowers the co2 demand meaning you need to add less, increase the light, increase the co2 you need to add, if you didn't increase the co2 when you did the light then this is a potential (read as near certainty) root of the problem. 

iogenic decalcaification is a symptom of insufficient co2 but it's my understanding that it's very rare. 

What is your co2 timing and light timing? 
As said elsewhere it's increase the co2 or decrease the light.


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Bubble mean nothing I'm afraid, my old nano ran 3bps and that was only 3gallons, this is down to the variability of bubble sizes between counters. For your tank size I would expect much more than 2bps on instinct. If you've a drop checker this would be a better but still imperfect indication of what your levels of co2 actually are. Distribution I don't think is the issue, I think it's the actual levels of co2 in the tank, algae is a hint that somethings a miss with co2 as is poor health in plants. The actual concentration in the water needs to be increased to see benefits, damaged leaves too need to be cut out, they won't repair and will only heamorage organic matter into the water column further exacerbating any algae issues.
> 
> I'm not sure the white particles are an algae, potentially a bacteria, potentially a precipitate of calcium.



Well 2 bps is my limit. 3 bps causes the fish to not eat and conserve energy at the bottom of the tank. The fish tell me theres too much co2 at 3 bps so I thought that 2 bps would be enough. If i am to take your advice, I better get my fish sold.


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> That the particles only appeared when you upped the light would suggest further more that it is a co2 related issue, ie too little. Lowering the light lowers the co2 demand meaning you need to add less, increase the light, increase the co2 you need to add, if you didn't increase the co2 when you did the light then this is a potential (read as near certainty) root of the problem.
> 
> iogenic decalcaification is a symptom of insufficient co2 but it's my understanding that it's very rare.
> 
> ...



The co2 supply is timed to come on at 2pm, and the lights come on at 5pm when the drop-checker is lime green.


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Say again
Do you use Ph adjusters?
hoggie


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Say again
> Do you use Ph adjusters?
> hoggie



Nope. Never have. It was 3 years ago that i discovered that they don't work in tap water (due to its own KH value) and when I did use it I didn't put it into the tank pictured.


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

You can increase the surface movement to get more o2 into the water at the same time you will need to inject more co2 because it's being driven off by the agitation, this will however lessen the effects of co2 in the water for the fish, the increase in co2 will increase plant health and which will inturn create more o2 and level out the issues. Perhaps not sold but temporarily rehomed for a month to get things back undercontrol might be wise. Good plant health, plenty of o2, happy fish. 

It's important to get used to getting familiar with a drop checker and not using bps simply because it's such a useless measure for how much co2 is actually in the water because it's just so variable.

Reduce the co2 to come on an hour before and increase the injection rate perhaps? I found that after around 2 hours before lights on I would be injecting isufficient co2 during the photoperiod to maintain a good level but was nearly gassing the fish if I increased the injection rate, reducing the time allowed me to get more co2 in and maintaining a higher injection rate throughout the day.


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Hi
I think it could be some sort of precipitation from the water change.
hoggie


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Have you added new substrate recently?


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> You can increase the surface movement to get more o2 into the water at the same time you will need to inject more co2 because it's being driven off by the agitation, this will however lessen the effects of co2 in the water for the fish, the increase in co2 will increase plant health and which will inturn create more o2 and level out the issues. Perhaps not sold but temporarily rehomed for a month to get things back undercontrol might be wise. Good plant health, plenty of o2, happy fish.
> 
> It's important to get used to getting familiar with a drop checker and not using bps simply because it's such a useless measure for how much co2 is actually in the water because it's just so variable.
> 
> Reduce the co2 to come on an hour before and increase the injection rate perhaps? I found that after around 2 hours before lights on I would be injecting isufficient co2 during the photoperiod to maintain a good level but was nearly gassing the fish if I increased the injection rate, reducing the time allowed me to get more co2 in and maintaining a higher injection rate throughout the day.



I guess I could try changing the extent of water surface ripple. Unfortunately, I have a Cayman aquarium with a Bluwave 05 internal filter which is hardwired into the aquarium. As such, I cannot easily replace it with an internal that would allow for better surface rippling; if I did replace it, I have been informed by a qualified electrician that the heater and lighting unit which are hardwired and powered by the same AC cable as the filter, would receive a dangerous excess of offset power.

The filter itself is useless. It has a low flow output and the output nozzle is non-adjustable so changing the extent of rippling is, well, impossible. Thankfully, I do have another compact internal with a spraybar; perhaps this could induce some more rippling.

I will change the co2 schedule so that it co2 enters at 4pm instead of 2pm and won't touch the power-heads to change the direction of flow.


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## LancsRick (12 Aug 2012)

Have you tried lowering the lighting as suggested? What ferts are you dosing? 50% weekly for anything other than very high EI seems excessive based on what I've read (i don't keep high tech myself)


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi
> I think it could be some sort of precipitation from the water change.
> hoggie



Why now though? I've been doing 50% W/C's for donkeys years!


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

LancsRick said:
			
		

> Have you tried lowering the lighting as suggested? What ferts are you dosing? 50% weekly for anything other than very high EI seems excessive based on what I've read (i don't keep high tech myself)



I haven't made any changes to the lights as that will be like throwing money into the drain; the money I paid to buy Parvula, Sessiliflora, some Cryptocorynes et al which will die, guaranteed, if I lower the light levels. 'Very high' is the whole point of EI is what I though? You dose an excess of macros and micros to eliminate algae problems and do a large W/C to stop inordinate build up of those nutrients and inorganic issues?

Edit: Lowering the lights may well get rid of the white particles. But I specifically increased the PAR levels so that I could keep a larger range of plants. I'll be able to say goodbye to the particle issue, but I will also have to say farewell to admiral higher plants if I drop the light level


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## LancsRick (12 Aug 2012)

They won't die, as Clive said earlier, the light level issue is a bit of a myth, what is far more important is the ratio of light to CO2. It looks like this tank has too much light for the amount of co2,and since you said the co2 is at the max level, that means lowering the lighting.

You're right when you say the point of EI is high dosing, I just couldn't spot a post where you said what dosing regime you were using.

Just trying to help.

P.s. my lileaopsis sessiflora is thriving in my 0.8wpg tank


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

LancsRick said:
			
		

> They won't die, as Clive said earlier, the light level issue is a bit of a myth, what is far more important is the ratio of light to CO2. It looks like this tank has too much light for the amount of co2,and since you said the co2 is at the max level, that means lowering the lighting.
> 
> You're right when you say the point of EI is high dosing, I just couldn't spot a post where you said what dosing regime you were using.
> 
> ...



I think I will take your and Garuf's advice. That being to introduce more co2, though begin injection 1 hour before lights up instead of 3 hours before lights up. The 2 hours that are taken out of the equation may just allow for 3 bps (yes I know this is very inaccurate to rely on due to variability in bubble-size, but the higher the bps  happens to be positively correlated with fish behavioural changes) to be injected without creating problems for the fish.

I will introduce more o2, somehow, which will further make 3 bps workable for the fish.

Lastly, I do understand that everyone is trying to help. If I come across as vicious then please try to understand how much of a hell hole keeping such a fish tank creates for its owner and you'll understand me a little more


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Hi Mark
You have got to get into your head your plants will not die if you lower the lighting.
They just will not grow as quick.
This is what i would do.
Remove all affected leaves and do general cleaning do a water change.
Clean your pipes.
Stop using the Koral's...these are blowing debris around.
Reduce your Co2 and lighting and half the EI dosing routine.
Do a gravel clean.
Do not change any water for four weeks but do gravel cleaning each week.... replace the water.
Monitor the progress.
Keep us posted.
hoggie


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> You have got to get into your head your plants will not die if you lower the lighting.
> They just will not grow as quick.
> This is what i would do.
> ...



What should I replace the Koralias with and what would be the purpose of doing water changes every 4 weeks? I don't know many that leave it that long and leaving the same water in for that long could result in a very low KH level by the time a W/C is due. I would probably be swapping KH tank water of 2dH with tapwater with a KH value of 4dH which would be a drastic shock to the fish if I was to stick to doing a 50% water change.


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## GHNelson (12 Aug 2012)

Hi 
The idea is trying to get the aquarium settled without too much disturbance.
Its only for 4 weeks you should do gravel cleaning.
Lowering the lighting will have the affect of slowing the plant growth down... less waste.
Its quality plants your looking to grow not quantity at this stage.
Reduce the Co2 and the EI you will not need as much.
Run your lights for 7 hours a day.
Run another filter with very fine floss if you can...slight water movement on the surface this will keep the Co2 that your dosing in.
This is not a exact science as all aquariums are different.
Be patient.
hoggie


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

@ Garuf

Just letting you know that I've put into effect your advice; I will up the co2 injection rate to 3 BPS or whatever produces a lime green in the drop-checker at lights on and ensure that this happens only 1 hr before lights on instead of 3. Have yet to increase o2 though; if there is a lack of o2/co2 gas exchange at the boundary layer do you get a plethora of bubbles at the surface? Just thought I'd let you know that the water's surface has no bubbles and I can see the rippling.


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## mark4785 (12 Aug 2012)

Here's a good picture of the 'white dust' on a Cryptocoryne brown (click to zoom). None of it is sticking to Marsilea or the Cryptocoryne Parva or Parvula grass. Small amounts are sticking to an Echinodorus.

It seems to be forming on or sticking to Crypts. So is this an unusual form of crypt melt?


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## Garuf (12 Aug 2012)

It might be worth noting that if the bubbles are going into the drop checker they can give a false reading, a way of getting round this is to push the drop counter so it touches the substrate so it creates a sort of seal, the drop checker will then show the amount of co2 that's in the water rather than the co2 that is still in aerosol entering the tank. 

It's a very interesting case despite all the frustration it's caused, we've all been there, try not to take it too hard, we'll get to the bottom of it all I'm sure.


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## mark4785 (13 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> It might be worth noting that if the bubbles are going into the drop checker they can give a false reading, a way of getting round this is to push the drop counter so it touches the substrate so it creates a sort of seal, the drop checker will then show the amount of co2 that's in the water rather than the co2 that is still in aerosol entering the tank.
> 
> It's a very interesting case despite all the frustration it's caused, we've all been there, try not to take it too hard, we'll get to the bottom of it all I'm sure.



Thanks again, I hadn't thought of that. 

This is my last contribution for today as this issue, and particularly my fish becoming ill as a result of the problem, has affected my blood glucose lvls (I have type 1 Diabetes).

If the increased injection of CO2 and better O2 circulation doesn't work (although the boundary layer already indicates good gaseous exchange), I'm going to relocate the co2 diffuser over to the left pane of glass along with the power-heads (or perhaps an internal filter with spraybar) to get flow distributed from the left pane to the right pane as at the moment the power-heads have no option but to direct flow to the front pane; when the flow hits this pane it disperses both leftwards and rightwards which I don't think is ideal.


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## roadmaster (13 Aug 2012)

Plant's appear small/young, could this be newly established tank or are plant's just new/young?
You say you are growing tired of throwing out plant's which indicates maybe tank is not too young but plant's are?
Have you tried  brushing the white particulate off of plant leaves? how fast does it return? 
Could white  particulate be tiny bit's of sand deposited where flow picks it up and forces it back against back glass? 
I had similar problem with black sand until I moved spray bar so that flow went more towards surface.
Have you considered as mentioned raising the light fixture,reducing hours that light is on,or possibly a piece of window screen found at hardware store to diffuse lighting a bit?
Are you dosing nutrient's per EI (estimative index)?
If CO2 cannot be increased to current lighting level,,then lowering light intensity and duration would seem to be logical next step.
Brown bit's on leaves almost look like diatom's but other's may have better insight.
If floating plant's produced desired result's with respect to algae,then lighting would be where I began to make adjustment's.
Ain't no expert,,just tossing out some question's other's may ask. :silent:


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## mark4785 (13 Aug 2012)

roadmaster said:
			
		

> Plant's appear small/young, could this be newly established tank or are plant's just new/young?
> You say you are growing tired of throwing out plant's which indicates maybe tank is not too young but plant's are?
> Have you tried  brushing the white particulate off of plant leaves? how fast does it return?
> Could white  particulate be tiny bit's of sand deposited where flow picks it up and forces it back against back glass?
> ...



The plants are new/young. I've had the aquarium running as a planted tank for 2.5 years. I've tried removing the particles and they come off easily, but I equally don't want to stress out the fish so I haven't removed all of it. These particles are not sand going on how they feel and how they look to the eye (the camera perhaps doesn't capture how they look adequately enough). I can't raise the light fixture unless I open the hood; it's not an open-top aquarium. The lighting period lasts for 7 hours; this should be reduced further?


----------



## mark4785 (14 Aug 2012)

I've just dislodged about 80% of the white particles so the plants/fish are very obscured by floating debris. I've also moved both power-heads to the left pane of glass and positioned the diffuser directly underneath them. The flow appears to be far-reaching as a result of this change. I will chop any dead leaves away tomorrow (there doesn't appear to be that many). The co2 distribution can't have been too bad prior to this change as one plant has actually grown a flower bud; the stem that it is on having grown 10cm in only 24 hours!

I tried using an internal filter with spray bar prior to using the power-heads in their new location (in accordance with somebodies advise within this topic) but couldn't get any of the co2 mist to enter the intake grills so I removed it immediately. Also, the output flow was quite ferocious and was just blasting the plants.

Lastly, and as advised, I tried introducing 3 BPS 1 hour before lights on and this affected the behaviour of the GBR. I'm unable to get introduce anymore o2 by changing the extent of rippling as power-heads aren't mean't for this and my slow internal filter (the one that I mentioned earlier that is hardwired into the aquarium hood) is 100% non-versatile (i.e. you cannot change the flow direction or move the filter).


----------



## darren636 (14 Aug 2012)

if the white things are now in the water column then it must be precipitation of some kind i think.... Maybe your ferts?


----------



## mark4785 (14 Aug 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> if the white things are now in the water column then it must be precipitation of some kind i think.... Maybe your ferts?



Can that happen from ferts? I use potassium nitrate and mono-potassium phosphate (dry salts) from Fluid Sensor. I mix these dry salts into bottles of 250ml of tap water. I've been using these salts for around 2 years and only once or twice have I had a white particle like growth on pieces of bog wood where it intermingled between fish netting and moss. I've never had white particles forming on everything.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (14 Aug 2012)

Sure you aren't dosing Iron?

 Because Iron mixing with the Phosphates will cause the crystallisation similar to what your experiencing I believe.


----------



## mark4785 (15 Aug 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Sure you aren't dosing Iron?
> 
> Because Iron mixing with the Phosphates will cause the crystallisation similar to what your experiencing I believe.



Yes I'm dosing the tank with TPN which has iron in it.  Sometimes I forget to dose the tank with TPN (on one or more of the micro-nutrient dosing days of Sat, Tue & Thurs) so I usually dose the TPN on a macro-nutrient dosing day to make up for this. I guess this is a big no no since the TPN will react with the phosphate to a higher extent?

Edit: Despite having 3 BPS, a lime green colour in the drop-checker, better oxygenation (there is by chance more rippling occurring brought about by the outlet pipe of the filter) and relocation of the powerheads for better co2 distribution, the white particles are reforming on the plant leaves. There is a lot of the white particles trapped behind the filter which is 30cm x 20cm and which goes flat up against the glass pane. 

Based on what Whitney89 has said, I will ensure that I dose TPN on separate days to my macro-nutrients to stop any crystallisation (on the presumption that the particles are crystals; they do look wavy and fluffy.)


----------



## Garuf (15 Aug 2012)

If you can, is it possible to get some of the particles out dampen them off and then perform the vinegar test on them, if they fizz then we've identified that it's a calcium deposit, if not then it's something else.


----------



## mark4785 (16 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> If you can, is it possible to get some of the particles out dampen them off and then perform the vinegar test on them, if they fizz then we've identified that it's a calcium deposit, if not then it's something else.



I will do that tomorrow and post the results. I don't know what kind of a fizz I'm looking out for but i'll give it my best shot.


----------



## NatureBoy (16 Aug 2012)

Hi Mark, do you know what the total alkalinity / carbonates are of the tap water you are using to do the water changes? I read you said a hardness of 6dH, but do you know the kH / ppm CaCO3 from the water provider? (can get a water report from their website and is really revealing regarding ferts and effectiveness of test kits etc).

Pretty sure Garuf has nailed it with the biogenic decalcification hunch, each Friday with your water change you are providing a big dose of carbon in the bicarbonate form that certain plants will, if given enough light energy / lack of CO2, be able to strip down to CO2, the downside is the white calcium carbonate deposits on the leaves - they go kinda crusty! I've had it on loads on my plants - seen it on Cryptocorynes, Cyperus Helferi, Echinodorus, etc (my tapwater has 185ppm Calcium Carbonate), not all plants can do this and it's an adaptation that works for plants coming from hardwaters. 

I'm not seeing carbon deficiency so much as carbonate efficiency by certain plants...and the algae.
Solutions:-
1.lower light (regrow the salvinia?) as per Clive's original suggestion...dissolved CO2 at current concentrations will match the rate of photosynthesis, without plants / pulling on the carbonates for food.
2.Lower carbonate going into tank (mix with rainwater / RO)...will mean you can add same level of CO2 as current, but have a greater percent in solution as simple dissolved CO2.
3. Dance a finer line with injecting more CO2, and most importantly,  inject when the plants most need it, so that the carbonate reserves aren't dipped into by the plants, as was also suggested. 
4. Lower the frequency of water changes, inject the same level of CO2, so that the alkalinity slowly falls with the removal of crusty leaves, and maintain a lower carbonate, essentially living with it. Will mean adjusting fert parameters / monitoring the buffering capacity of the remaining carbonate reserves, etc.

I think all these things are the Catch 22 of hard tap water, but at least your plants are growing and you care for the wellbeing in the tank, so it's a challenge rather than a disaster.

I hope you find a solution that works for you

regards

Gary


----------



## Garuf (16 Aug 2012)

Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did. 

Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation. 

Another issue is that higher levels of hardness seem to impede co2 uptake so more needs to be injected. 

The other thing could be to cut the water slowly with RO. This also would play well with the stress associated the HOITH disease, fish kept in water much harder than their source are under constant stress and this would explain it much better than fluctuations in co2 which most fish adapt to as similar things happen naturally. It's anecdotal but a lot of people who have struggled with it are keeping fish, particularly Amazonian cichlids, are located in hard water areas without cutting the water or using some other method to reduce ph/tds load etc.


----------



## NatureBoy (16 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did.
> 
> Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation.
> 
> ...



In the end Garuf, have you come to the conclusion to add RO to your tapwater, or do you persevere, increase the CO2 rate, etc?

On the new tank I'm putting in place I hope to be able to get good results using tapwater, we'll see...

cheers 

Gary


----------



## Garuf (16 Aug 2012)

I moved house in the end, so really, I accepted defeat. I did persevere prior to moving though and kept higher levels of co2 and things ran fine but my water in Hollington near stoke was/is toxic to shrimp because of all the heavy metals in the water. I never noticed any precipitates but I did really struggle with certain plants, bolbititis in particular. 

My shrimp tank is in Hollington and still running, my dad who's looking after the tank at the minute cuts the tap water 50/50 with rain water but it's still very hard with having a sandstone quarry pumping dust into the air like no bodies business so near. 

If money was no option though, I'd use ro and cut it with hma water to bring it to more sane levels of hardness and to strip out the lead and copper.


----------



## mark4785 (16 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Being in Derbyshire and being just on the wrong side of the boarder originally the water from the taps is rock hard with almost everywhere being limestone and sandstone I imagine it's got a very high level of caco3 like mine does/did.
> 
> Crypts naturally come from rivers with solid limestone basins, I suspect that this is the origin of their adaptation, vallis too have this particular adaptation.
> 
> ...



The only time I've seen a GBR stressed by the environment that its in was when I added a male GBR to an aquarium that had just come to the end of a fishless cycle. There was no measurable ammonia/nitrite, but the bicarbonate of soda that I had been adding constantly throughout the cycling period must have become engrained into all of the surfaces in the aquarium. The fish would respond by flicking off of objects that had come into contact with the bicarbonate of soda due to the increased KH and PH value that it gives off.

I keep a log book of things like PH, KH, GH among other things that I conduct on my pond water and I can confirm that my tap water has a KH of 4dH and a GH of 6dH which isn't too hard. The GBR's that I have had thrive very well in this kind of water and I've never seen the need to go down the RO route because I think its a route that a 'mad scientist' would take with all the water filtering and conditioning that is needed. I've seen many people say that they've lost their GBR's within a week after purchase and it could be that those GBR's are dying in precisely managed RO water. They are difficult fish to keep alive and breed, but I've managed to keep a male alive for 16 months (he was about 1 yr old when I bought him from the store) in good old de-chrlorinated Derbyshire tap water.


----------



## mark4785 (16 Aug 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> Hi Mark, do you know what the total alkalinity / carbonates are of the tap water you are using to do the water changes? I read you said a hardness of 6dH, but do you know the kH / ppm CaCO3 from the water provider? (can get a water report from their website and is really revealing regarding ferts and effectiveness of test kits etc).
> 
> Pretty sure Garuf has nailed it with the biogenic decalcification hunch, each Friday with your water change you are providing a big dose of carbon in the bicarbonate form that certain plants will, if given enough light energy / lack of CO2, be able to strip down to CO2, the downside is the white calcium carbonate deposits on the leaves - they go kinda crusty! I've had it on loads on my plants - seen it on Cryptocorynes, Cyperus Helferi, Echinodorus, etc (my tapwater has 185ppm Calcium Carbonate), not all plants can do this and it's an adaptation that works for plants coming from hardwaters.
> 
> ...



Hi there,

The KH value of my water is 4dH but I've never tested for CacO3. Would you advise that I test it? Unlike ammonia and nitrite, I don't know what constitutes a 'good' calcium level. I'd certainly consider, even though I think it's a bit excessive and troublesome, adopting the usage of RO water if the calcium concentration is inappropriate.

I have followed Garuf's advise and took some of the white particles out of the tank. The sample is on a white cloth and I'm waiting for the water to dry up so I just have the solids left. I've been told to apply vinegar to the sample; apparently if some fizzing occurs, I am dealing with carbon deposits if I remember correctly??


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (16 Aug 2012)

Not carbon,Carbonate.


----------



## NatureBoy (17 Aug 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> Garuf said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just wondering are you still adding the bicarbonate of soda?


----------



## mark4785 (18 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> If you can, is it possible to get some of the particles out dampen them off and then perform the vinegar test on them, if they fizz then we've identified that it's a calcium deposit, if not then it's something else.



I've performed that vinegar test and there was no fizzing at all. The white particles are re-growing on the filter, glass and plants despite having completely removed it several days ago! I have no idea what it is now; I don't know whether to treat it as an algae (it doesn't look like an algae to me) or something entirely different.




			
				NatureBoy said:
			
		

> Just wondering are you still adding the bicarbonate of soda?


[/quote]

No, I only use it during a fishless cycle to boost the PH. I would never use it in a fish-in cycle or established aquarium as its too hazardous.


----------



## mark4785 (19 Aug 2012)

Should I try a blackout? Will that get rid of the white particles??


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (19 Aug 2012)

Have a Blackout. Do a 50% Water change then another tomorrow. 

Then see how you fare? Leaving lights and co2 off till you know what it is could help. 

I still think its a reaction of ferts.


----------



## mark4785 (19 Aug 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Have a Blackout. Do a 50% Water change then another tomorrow.
> 
> Then see how you fare? Leaving lights and co2 off till you know what it is could help.
> 
> I still think its a reaction of ferts.



But I need to use ferts to keep the plants alive. Are you implying that I would need to change the source of my ferts or convert the aquarium into a non-planted aquarium'?


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (19 Aug 2012)

Are you still dosing Macros and Micros on the same day?


----------



## mark4785 (19 Aug 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Are you still dosing Macros and Micros on the same day?



No.

Edit: The plants look like they've been snowed on. Whatever it is, it forms really quickly. This whole situation is getting really frustrating now.


----------



## mark4785 (20 Aug 2012)

Here's the situation at the moment:
























Looks awful and its beginning to kill some of the Cryptocoryne Brown due to how dense it's getting.

Are we sure it's not some kind of algae? If it is then doing a blackout would make perfect sense but if it isn't, might I be wasting my time doing a blackout since it might continue to spread?


----------



## mark4785 (20 Aug 2012)

I've just done some internet research and most other planted tank communities have discussed this 'white dust' has being some sort of substance which is transferred from drift/bog wood. I haven't introduced any bog wood to the aquarium but I added a large amount of plants about 5 weeks ago. It doesn't look like there is any treatment for the substance other than constant water changes and hoovering; if that doesn't work it looks like I will have to remove everything from the aquarium and start again.

There was one forum saying that excessive use dechlorinator can cause the white dust but I don't buy that explanation because I've been using 3x the recommended dosage of Aquasafe for nearly 3 years now.

Edit: I've ordered a very compact UV-C clarifier for the tank since I know that the white particles are not floating to their destination on the leaves. It would appear that a microscopic bacteria of some kind is in the water and once it finds an object to sit on it grows to a visible level. The UV-C should therefore kill it before it has time to sink it's claws into my plants.


----------



## darren636 (20 Aug 2012)

any reason for triple dosing your water conditioner?


----------



## GHNelson (20 Aug 2012)

Hi Darren
Doesn't Aquasafe not have some sort of Nitrate removal media ingredient.
Ive used it before...seems quite gritty.
Plus i don't think the filtration cuts the mustard...in other words up to the job.
Why don't you rap some filter media around the Koral's for now to remove some of the water column particles. 
hoggie


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## darren636 (20 Aug 2012)

if it is the tetra stuff, i stopped using it a while ago. Think mine was the slime coat one though. Unless there is a specific reason to dose extra water conditioner i would not do it.


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## GHNelson (20 Aug 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> if it is the tetra stuff, i stopped using it a while ago. Think mine was the slime coat one though. Unless there is a specific reason to dose extra water conditioner i would not do it.



I still think its a precipitation..caused by adding something maybe Bicarbonates?
Why is the tank ph6 and the tap water 7.4?
hoggie


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (20 Aug 2012)

Get some Seachem Prime. Sack the rest of the 'Declorinators' off.

The API 'stress coat' is world gash, so imagine nutafin isn't much better?


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## GHNelson (20 Aug 2012)

Mark
Quote(I replace tank water with a PH of 6.0 with dechlorinated tap water with a PH of 7.4.) I follow an EI dosing regime which suggests doing a 50% W/C. Is this intolerable to the Crypts?
Why is the tank ph6 and the tap water 7.4?
hoggie


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## Garuf (20 Aug 2012)

Hmm, well I'm entirely at a loss. 
I can't imagine water changes bothering the crypts much, it's large swings that cause crypt melt, water changes don't produce large enough a swing. 
Tanks almost always have a lower ph than tap water down to organic compounds, co2 injection, plant uptake etc. This doesn't strike me as all that unusual.


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## mark4785 (20 Aug 2012)

Hi all, i'll answer a few of the questions posted.

1. I use 3x the dosage of Aqua-safe because I like to see it working. The more you put in the more you are able to see the liquid expanding across the bucket. On the Aqua-safe bottle, it does say to mix the liquid in until you see a few bubbles and it has thoroughly distributed. This happens quicker when I overdose Aqua-safe. I've never seen Aqua-safe remove nitrates from my water column (as somebody mentioned earlier) as my digital nitrate meter indicates an upward nitrate concentration trend throughout the EI dosing regime.

2. The tank water reaches a PH of 6.0 because of the liquid co2 injection. The tap waters got a PH of 7.4 because its got a PH of 7.4 lol.

I will see if I can get some filter media around the koralias (as advised). But this white stuff is like dust. It will likely disperse all over the tank when I pull the filter media away. I'm 80% certain that if I keep sucking it up with the aquarium hoover on top of using a UV-C filter, that it will die.


----------



## mark4785 (20 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> darren636 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't add bicarbonate of soda now. It was used when cycling the tank nearly 3 years ago. I think i'm dealing with bacteria rather than just ordinary mulm.


----------



## GHNelson (20 Aug 2012)

I wouldn't rely on any of those test kits mate.....as Clive says your just wasting your hard earned cash.
I ditched them 6 years ago you need to free up your mind and think what plants need in a natural enviorioment.
hoggie


----------



## mark4785 (20 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't rely on any of those test kits mate.....as Clive says your just wasting your hard earned cash.
> I ditched them 6 years ago you need to free up your mind and think what plants need in a natural enviorioment.
> hoggie



I use a scientific instrument to test my nitrates. It's not any sort of liquid test. The plants are clearly doing quite well at the moment but are being hindered by an unknown substance. There is little new/active algae growth which is a positive sign.


----------



## GHNelson (20 Aug 2012)

Mark
Your eyes are your test kits.
Ditch the Scientific instruments/theory and look past them.
hoggie


----------



## mark4785 (21 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Mark
> Your eyes are your test kits.
> Ditch the Scientific instruments/theory and look past them.
> hoggie



I don't test my aquarium water for ammonia/nitrite as I already inspect fish behaviour in order to work out if there is a problem. However, I use a nitrate meter for my own satisfaction that the nitrates are not too high. There is a theory that HITH disease in cichlids can be caused by a high nitrate level which has yet to be proved/disproved. The method of inspecting the fish for a disease, namely HITH, often means it is too late to save the fish from death when it comes to Mikrogeophagus Ramirezi. So I invested in a nitrate meter to allow me to ensure that nitrates are never over 50 ppm and never under 30 ppm. 

I never at any point said that I don't consider what my plants need/want. Any actively growing algae in the aquarium is minimal; the large masses of algae on the glass is dead algae which is hard to remove. So I must stress again that  algae is not causing any issues with plant growth, and as such, will not need to be "concentrating on what plants need to grow in a natural environment" since I've clearly already accomplished that.

The issue at hand here, Hogan, are the white particles growing on many surfaces which don't appear to be an algae but come across as a bacterium.


----------



## NatureBoy (21 Aug 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> Hi all, i'll answer a few of the questions posted.
> 
> 1. I use 3x the dosage of Aqua-safe because I like to see it working. The more you put in the more you are able to see the liquid expanding across the bucket. On the Aqua-safe bottle, it does say to mix the liquid in until you see a few bubbles and it has thoroughly distributed. This happens quicker when I overdose Aqua-safe. I've never seen Aqua-safe remove nitrates from my water column (as somebody mentioned earlier) as my digital nitrate meter indicates an upward nitrate concentration trend throughout the EI dosing regime.
> 
> ...



Hi Mark- what do you mean by "liquid CO2 injection"? is that pressurised CO2 or an off the shelf liquid supplement? If so, what's the make? Where in derbyshire are you based?


----------



## GHNelson (21 Aug 2012)

Hi Mark
When was the last time you removed the filter and did a complete clean of the innards.
hoggie


----------



## mark4785 (21 Aug 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> Hi Mark- what do you mean by "liquid CO2 injection"? is that pressurised CO2 or an off the shelf liquid supplement? If so, what's the make? Where in derbyshire are you based?



Sorry, I just mean't to say 'co2 injection'. I do use EasyCarbo liquid co2 in addition to co2 injection though.

I live near Chesterfield in Derbyshire so North-East Derbyshire.


----------



## NatureBoy (21 Aug 2012)

Hi Mark

To back up your water testing you can also enter your post code here http://www.stwater.co.uk/category/536?p ... itySubmit=

I wonder if the water company has been making any changes recently that affects your supply? This could explain why all of a sudden the water conditions have turned against you.

Things like this http://www.chesterfieldpost.co.uk/news/ ... 00295.html

It's a long shot but you never know!


----------



## mark4785 (22 Aug 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> 
> To back up your water testing you can also enter your post code here http://www.stwater.co.uk/category/536?p ... itySubmit=
> 
> ...



Hi Nature,

I supplied my post code and it gave me a link to the following report: http://www.stwater.co.uk/upload/pdf/ZDB ... r_West.pdf . As said earlier, other than the common parameters that fish-keepers test for, I have no idea whether or not most of the parameters in that report are within range. A brief report, which displayed after putting in my post code indicated quite hard water. In addition, my nitrate metre indicates 12-15 ppm of Nitrate in the tap water and the report indicates 12 ppm so sounds quite consistent.


----------



## mark4785 (22 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> When was the last time you removed the filter and did a complete clean of the innards.
> hoggie



I've never done a complete clean of all the innards. Why do you ask? I dip the filter media in bucketed tank water every week and clean the impeller but I've never cleaned the inside walls of the filter box. I've quickly looked in the filter box and it looks like there is a lot of white particles in there. I'm not sure whether this is the source of it or merely being sucked in of off the surfaces which it is growing on. 

In any case, in a moment i'm going to thoroughly clean the inside of the filter box out and I'm going to temporarily put a 9w UV filter in which has arrived today to kill any spores.

I guess if the filter has gotten dirty, the wrong type of bacteria has thrived and it's perhaps showing itself in the form of these particles? Given that I haven't cleaned the inner-walls of the filter for 2 years, does anybody happen to know of somebody who has gotten white particles, just like me, and has not cleaned the inner-walls of their filter just like me? If so, I think we probably know what's caused this issue.


----------



## mark4785 (22 Aug 2012)

There was a whitish (had a slight yellow tint) paste growing on the sucker behind the filter body, in and around the impeller and also growing in the outlet pipe. I've cleaned all of this. Done a 50% W/C and added the UV-C filter.

I will keep the co2 and lights off tomorrow and the day after, all the while doing a 80-90% W/C each of those days and keeping the UV-C filter running.

If that doesn't remove it...

Plan B: Turn UV off, put anti-fungal (the smell of the white paste had a fusty fungi smell to it) treatment into water while running the tank as normal

Plan C: Chuck plants away, relocate fish & sell entire tank. Buy a new tank that doesn't have a useless filter.


----------



## NatureBoy (23 Aug 2012)

mark4785 said:
			
		

> NatureBoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really like comparing to the water report, it made me stop using the toy test kits I had...measured no nitrates when mine were in fact 20!

What is of interest though are these figures relating to alkalinity / carbonate levels (from the main page rather than the pdf):
Hardness Level	Slightly Hard	No Standard Applies
Hardness Clark	9.00	No Standard Applies	Degrees Clark
Hardness French	13.00	No Standard Applies	French Degrees
Hardness German	7.00	No Standard Applies	German Degrees

That tapwater figure of 7.00 kH, and pH of 7.6 ish (water report pdf) is sufficient, when you do a 50% water change, to shift the tank balance to alkaline, and proportionately more DIC represented by carbonate, so plants will switch to using the reservoir of fresh carbonate for photosynthesis until the pH drops and CO2 becomes more available.

During this time, through biogenic calcification, calcium carbonate is being precipitated out creating the undesirable effect you are seeing. Pretty sure of it.

cheers

Gary


----------



## mark4785 (23 Aug 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> I really like comparing to the water report, it made me stop using the toy test kits I had...measured no nitrates when mine were in fact 20!
> 
> What is of interest though are these figures relating to alkalinity / carbonate levels (from the main page rather than the pdf):
> Hardness Level	Slightly Hard	No Standard Applies
> ...



The issue I have with your explanation is that when you say the plants are using "the reservoir of fresh carbonate for photosynthesis" and the PH is around 7.6, the main light source in the tank is off and remains off until I have dosed nitrate, phosphate, obtained sufficient co2 injection and dosed EasyCarbo. When the lights are off, the plants are using oxygen to thrive so I'm not sure where the carbonate would enter the equation at that point and result in what you call 'biogenic calcification'

Also, you have to consider the fact that the tank has been running for 3 years so why has it taken 3 years for the 'biogenic calcification' to come about?

Does this calcium carbonate smell like a fungi which is the stench coming from the filter?


----------



## NatureBoy (23 Aug 2012)

sorry I meant biogenic decalcification. You increased the light intensity by removing the floating plants. Do you monitor the pH during the photoperiod rather than the start? You may add sufficient CO2 to lower the pH, but as soon as the plants hit their peak of activity how can you then have the sufficient CO2 without increasing the rate of CO2 to take account the plants usage? The responses to the thread "lighting advice needed" gave lots of free solutions that I would try before spending money / consider stripping down tank, unclear whether you have tried adjusting the light intensity back to what it was. Calcium carbonate smells like chalk.


----------



## GHNelson (23 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> When was the last time you removed the filter and did a complete clean of the innards.
> hoggie


That's probably your problem.
As i said on a number occasions the filter wasn't up to the job....and you should clean a internal filters inner parts regularly...every few months.
Remove the old one and get a external with a heater  
Cheers
hoggie


----------



## mark4785 (23 Aug 2012)

NatureBoy said:
			
		

> sorry I meant biogenic decalcification. You increased the light intensity by removing the floating plants. Do you monitor the pH during the photoperiod rather than the start? You may add sufficient CO2 to lower the pH, but as soon as the plants hit their peak of activity how can you then have the sufficient CO2 without increasing the rate of CO2 to take account the plants usage? The responses to the thread "lighting advice needed" gave lots of free solutions that I would try before spending money / consider stripping down tank, unclear whether you have tried adjusting the light intensity back to what it was. Calcium carbonate smells like chalk.



I don't test my PH at all during the photoperiod. I haven't had any reason to do so and have been encouraged by many UKAPS members to never test the water unless the fish behaviour alone implies a water quality problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by "as soon as the plants hit their peak activity how can you then have the sufficient CO2 without increasing the rate of C02 to take account the plants usage?". Many plants are spreading rapidly, growing new shoots, undergoing crypt-melt quickly (green leaves melting and being quickly replaced with red leaves). I only have a bit of algae growth on the back pane of glass and green spot algae near dead spots. I think its safe to say that I am taking into account the plants requirements but this whole process is being spoiled by what I think is a fungus.

The smell of the substance doesn't resemble a chalk smell.


----------



## mark4785 (23 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> That's probably your problem.
> As i said on a number occasions the filter wasn't up to the job....and you should clean a internal filters filters inner parts regularly...every few months.
> Remove the old one and get a external with a heater
> Cheers
> hoggie



The filter is up to the job as far as not creating a fungus IF I clean it frequently enough; something I haven't done    Thats the issue at hand here. Of course its not good enough for a planted aquarium but thats something I can't get around unless I sell the entire tank (filter parts are hardwired into the aquarium hood), something I don't need to do while I have minimal algae growth.

High algae growth can = inadequate flow which in turn = Insufficient LPH. I do have bits of algae growth but not enough to grumble about.

I need to get this fungus out the aquarium before I move on to removing the algae. It might be that the fungus is here to stay which effectively means algae can do whatever it wants given that I'd be selling the tank anyway.


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## mark4785 (24 Aug 2012)

The white stuff appears not to be growing under no light and with the UV-filter running. Not out of the woods yet I presume.


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## mark4785 (25 Aug 2012)

I was mistaken, it is still spreading slowly!!


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## mark4785 (25 Aug 2012)

Yet another update: removed a white particle from the filter and it has no smell to it so it may well be calcium carbonate as mentioned by NatureBoy. 

Do I perform a blackout to get rid of this? I don't want to lower the light levels to resolve this as some of the plants I have just lose their colour and become brittle under lower light condition; that is no fun to watch.

Does anybody know where I could send a sample of the white particles for testing for a positive ID?


Thanks again,

Mark.


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## mark4785 (26 Aug 2012)

Bump


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

Hi Mark
You don't need to do a black out...these white particles are probably a harmless bacteria.
Just keep your filter cleaner...next time you do a water change the white particles shouldn't appear.
hoggie


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## mark4785 (26 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> You don't need to do a black out...these white particles are probably a harmless bacteria.
> Just keep your filter cleaner...next time you do a water change the white particles shouldn't appear.
> hoggie



I initially thought it was a bacteria but what do you think to Byron's explanation in this thread: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aqua ... tion-66627 ?

He found within a book that hydrogen carbonate (found in bicarbonates) is an intermediate form of carbonic acid and which is in higher concentrations in hard alkaline water. He goes on to say that plants can obtain carbon from co2 or bicarbonates. Where the plant fails to uptake co2, Byron states that the plant attempts to grab bicarbonates in the water column by excreting acid on the leaf's underside to generate a low PH of around 6.0; this acidity converts any bicarbonate to co2 which diffuses into the leaf for photosynthetic purposes. He goes on to state that the plant must maintain it's "internal charge balance" by taking up "acid produced on the leaf surface, resulting in a high localised PH of around 10 and a high hydroxide (OH-) concentration.

LASTLY, he stipulates that it is this high hydroxide concentration, when combined with any present calcium bicarbonate [Ca(HCO3)2] in the water column that causes a precipitation of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) (those white particles that we've been discussing).

He doesn't state that insufficient CO2 and high light = the necessity for a plant to obtain co2 from bicarbonates, BUT other posters within that article on tropicalfishkeeping.com have said that more co2 OR less light seems to get rid of the calcium carbonate deposits.

The person who suggested upping the Co2 and O2 in my aquarium seemed to be spot on.


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## Garuf (26 Aug 2012)

Good scientific explanation, so are you keeping the co2 high and seeing where it goes? 
Glad to see my suspicions were on the money.


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## mark4785 (26 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Good scientific explanation, so are you keeping the co2 high and seeing where it goes?
> Glad to see my suspicions were on the money.



Well, I've upped my Co2 injection rate to about 4 bubbles per second. I also managed to induce more water rippling to drive me o2 into the tank by not filling the aquarium up so much. As a result the water's surface is closer to the output flow of the outlet pipe.

Despite making these changes the German Blue Ram is yawning and not eating; this kind of behaviour is not seen before co2 injection starts or even 1 hour into co2 injection. The rest of the fish are eating and acting no differently!

Would I be right in thinking that GBR's are not suitable in some set-ups?

I've seen footage of GBR's in Venezuela river basins and they seem to enjoy swimming in water that receives light that is filtered by tree leaves. You certainly don't see them swimming in high-light, co2 injected water.


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## GHNelson (27 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> You don't need to do a black out...these white particles are probably a harmless bacteria.
> Just keep your filter cleaner...next time you do a water change the white particles shouldn't appear.
> hoggie


Have a look here :arrow: http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk ... 86583.html
 :arrow: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... 18789.html

Quote(squint03-27-2010, 11:44 AM
some algae or bacteria film.
I also think it's biofilm that loses adherence after the flow of water has been absent for awhile.
It's not anything that wasn't already in your water and if it's dead algae or bacteria, it's not enough to cause an ammonia spike or anything.
I've seen it for years and nothing bad has ever happened.)

I still say its been down too the cleaning routine not being performed properly.
Seems the above aquarists have had a similar experiences..a good tip put a fine mesh net with some fine filter floss over the outlet next time you fire up the filter.
Try it and see do a 50% water change...your Ram may need it due to upping the Co2 injection rate. 
hoggie


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## mark4785 (27 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> hogan53 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do I get a fine mesh net and fine filter floss to stay over the outlet pipe without just getting blown off? I think the end of the outlet pipe (on outside of filter box) clips on to the pipe so I guess I could put a fine mesh net on the end of the pipe and then clip the end back over it?

Here's the filter > 
	

	
	
		
		



		
			





 (the black thing stuck out to the left is clipped on and is removable).


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## nry (27 Aug 2012)

Personally I just wedge my fish catching net over the filter pipe into the tank after I've cleaned it - any muck dislodged in the pipes ends up in the net, job done.


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## mark4785 (27 Aug 2012)

nry said:
			
		

> Personally I just wedge my fish catching net over the filter pipe into the tank after I've cleaned it - any muck dislodged in the pipes ends up in the net, job done.



Ok I'll give it a go. I hope that it finally goes after doing this.. getting really fed up with it now.


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## GHNelson (28 Aug 2012)

Put a piece of pipe in the nozzle and add/stick a uplift sponge on the end.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aquarium-Bioc ... 43b2f62b71
hoggie


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## mark4785 (28 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Put a piece of pipe in the nozzle and add/stick a uplift sponge on the end.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aquarium-Bioc ... 43b2f62b71
> hoggie



I've ordered some filter foam to collect the particles. Thanks for the above suggestion but if I use that sponge on the filter nozzle it will stop the rippling created by the nozzle, stopping O2 entering the tank.

Edit: I did add some fine netting to the nozzle to filter the bits coming out the nozzle. This did a good job for 12 hrs but eventually resulted in the rippling stopping so i've removed it.


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## GHNelson (28 Aug 2012)

:? Its only to be there for a period of time when there is no more particles coming out the filter nozzle..and your running clear water.  
Then you remove it.
Come on kid think abought it  
hoggie


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## mark4785 (28 Aug 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> :? Its only to be there for a period of time when there is no more particles coming out the filter nozzle..and your running clear water.
> Then you remove it.
> Come on kid think abought it
> hoggie



Well the co2 / lights will need to be turned off then otherwise I'll be searching for fish corpses otherwise. Shocking but true.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (28 Aug 2012)

Add a decent external? Were throwing ideas at you here haha.


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## mark4785 (28 Aug 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Add a decent external? Were throwing ideas at you here haha.



Thats not possible since there's no access points for the tubing. I have a separate open-top aquarium with an external so if need be I will switch to having a high-light planted tank in that environment.

Do I get the feeling that trying to grow plants in a tank containing power-heads, inside co2 diffusers (not inline) and internal filters is futile? I've read some journals and have found that some people have bought Juwel Rio aquariums and have immediately ripped out the internal parts (the filter and even the light ballast), something I never did because I'm not into DIY.


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## darren636 (29 Aug 2012)

jewel internals work fine for what they are. I needed more flow and flexibility so i dumped it. Ugly space invader of a thing. Jewel lights are perfect for most tanks. Internal co2 diffusers work well too, as long as you find a good flow pattern with your filter or powerhead.


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## mark4785 (29 Aug 2012)

darren636 said:
			
		

> jewel internals work fine for what they are. I needed more flow and flexibility so i dumped it. Ugly space invader of a thing. Jewel lights are perfect for most tanks. Internal co2 diffusers work well too, as long as you find a good flow pattern with your filter or powerhead.



So it usually comes down to the internal not being adequate enough?


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## darren636 (29 Aug 2012)

depends on how much flow you need. It is fine as a filter to house your friendly bacteria. But plants and high  light demand higher flow to circulate the co 2. So, it is fit for original purpose.


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## mark4785 (31 Aug 2012)

Well I've been using filter foam for 24 hrs now, as advised, and the foam has collected quite a lot of these white particles and there are not so many gathering in the tank. The plants are doing a bit better now that they aren't covered in this white stuff to the extent that pearling is occurring during the latter end of the photo-period!

Although this white stuff has probably been caused by incomplete filter maintenance, the poster who thought that the white stuff was a product of biogenic decalcification induced by doing 50% water exchanges weekly as lead me to question the amount and frequency of the water changes I do given that the KH / GH of the tank water depletes over time making it more favourable for the German Blue Ram species. So instead of doing 50% W/C's (as a part of an Estimative Index dosing regime) would it be reasonable for me to do 20% W/C's every 8-9 days? The aim in doing this is to allow the KH and GH to lower over time and not fluctuate excessively when new tap water is introduced.

From a plant perspective, 50% of tap-water, with no dissolved co2, isn't ideal anyhow right?


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## mark4785 (2 Sep 2012)

Foam has collected an extraordinary amount of the particles. In a few weeks, the entire tank should be 100% free of it.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (2 Sep 2012)

Good times mate, wonder what the 'F' they were.


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## mark4785 (3 Sep 2012)

Whitey89 said:
			
		

> Good times mate, wonder what the 'F' they were.



Some sort of super-bacteria that you only get when you don't clean the filter impeller and other hard-to-reach parts lol.


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## GHNelson (3 Sep 2012)

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Mark
> When was the last time you removed the filter and did a complete clean of the innards.
> hoggie


My suspicions way back on page 9...well it seems your on the right track now  
hoggie


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## mark4785 (13 Sep 2012)

Just providing one more post to say that this problem is completely rectified. Thanks for all of your suggestions and help!


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