# Could it be the substrate? Tank in terminal decline...



## Cat

Hello,

I wasn't sure where to put this post but seeing as we have changed just about everything else in the tank the substrate is the only thing left?

We set up the tank in 2014, it is a large tank at 450 litres, we filled it with ADA Amazonia soil, power sand and this stuff that was made up of white pebbles with holes in it which was supposed to store nutrients ( sorry can't remember what it was called ).

My husband made the lights ( he's an electronic engineer ) and we rigged up a fire extinguisher system with an inline ceramic diffuser. We have a fluidized bed filter and various cartridge filters for the inflow for the water changes. And dose with the EI ferts system.

Anyway its never been that good, it has never looked like the amazing tanks on this forum, but I have a 1 year old and a 5 year old so have barely any time. We filled it with what we thought would be the easiest plants to grow - Echinodorus and Vallisneria and after an initial problematic phase of cyanobacteria it worked well enough. We had all kinds of algae but the main thing was the plants grew bigger and there was always enough growth that I could do a clean once a week and take out the old growth and the new stuff would fill in.

But for the last year it has all stopped growing, the plants are just dying slowly. At first we thought it was a circulation problem so we rebuilt all of that, then when that didn't work I read a lot on this forum and came across Ceg's post about Potassium Nitrate and realised we had fallen down that pitfall so sorted that out but still no better. Thought maybe it was the CO2 but the drop checker goes yellow by the afternoon and we don't want to gas the fish. So we are lost. The substrate is the only thing left? 

Do you think if it has all runout of nutrients after 5 years that would be enough to kill the tank, even with the COz, lights and ferts? What ever the set was before it was enough. We are currently trying to sell the fish so we can rescape - incidentally does anyone want 3 Discus fish cheap? 

I'm hesitant to spend lots more money on ADA stuff after everything else we've done that hasn't worked. Are there people in this community that can come and see a setup and tell whats wrong with it, for a fee obviously? Because if we don't fix it we will just have to strip in down and put some tetra in it as it makes up half of my livingroom!

I would grateful for any advice sorry the post is so long.


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## tam

Do you have any photos?


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## Cat

Almost too embarrassing to post ...
First picture was about a year ago and second is today.


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## Kalum

If you are absolutely sure nothing else has changed then theres only 2 variables left I can think of

Like you say the substrate might have fully depleted its nutrient store but if you are sure you are dosing full EI then it still shouldn't die off like that as they should be able to still uptake from the water column, unsure if the CEC values also deplete with time if it breaks down but would make sense as 5 years is a long time. Not sure if a build up of waste organics could be spiking and throwing out something your tank doesn't agree with

The only other thing is the water you are putting in during water changes, ro or tap? Potentially something different in the water source? Unlikely but clutching at straws


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## Keith GH

Cat

Without actually seeing the tank it can be rather difficult.   Only thing for sure your plants are dying and something should have been done at soon as the concern started.



Looking at the first photo other than a beautiful healthy planted tank I immediately noticed the depth of the substrate plus in the back LH corner bare roots. This would draw me to the conclusion substrate no deep enough for your plants.  It's even more noticeable in the second photo.

Solution strip the tank down and start afresh using a greater substrate depth very sorry to say.

Keith


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## Cat

Kalum said:


> If you are absolutely sure nothing else has changed then theres only 2 variables left I can think of
> 
> Like you say the substrate might have fully depleted its nutrient store but if you are sure you are dosing full EI then it still shouldn't die off like that as they should be able to still uptake from the water column, unsure if the CEC values also deplete with time if it breaks down but would make sense as 5 years is a long time. Not sure if a build up of waste organics could be spiking and throwing out something your tank doesn't agree with
> 
> The only other thing is the water you are putting in during water changes, ro or tap? Potentially something different in the water source? Unlikely but clutching at straws



We've had some issues with the incoming water. It is filtered through a sediment, chloramine and an activated carbon cartridge system and inline heaters. We don't use RO because we had to use it for discus fish for years and it is so wasteful, we have quite hard water here and it is a large tank so we would had been chucking a 1000 litres to produce 200 it just bothered me too much.

Twice in the last year we've discovered the fish in a bad way after a water change the day before and had to do more emergency further water changes and they've recovered. We've had no idea what has happened but have wondered if our water suppliers have dumped something in the water. Although I've been keeping fish for years in Cambridge and this has not happened before. We are a rural area and I know their nitrate levels in the standard water supply is at the highest allowed because we can see that in their published water quality test results, although they are always a couple years old as they don't seem to publish current ones. We do have a lot of farming and so this is to be expected apparently. It's all guess work at our end.


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## Cat

Keith GH said:


> Cat
> 
> Without actually seeing the tank it can be rather difficult.   Only thing for sure your plants are dying and something should have been done at soon as the concern started.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the first photo other than a beautiful healthy planted tank I immediately noticed the depth of the substrate plus in the back LH corner bare roots. This would draw me to the conclusion substrate no deep enough for your plants.  It's even more noticeable in the second photo.
> 
> Solution strip the tank down and start afresh using a greater substrate depth very sorry to say.
> 
> Keith




Thank you for your response, the substrate is much higher at the back, but as you say it has got lower and lower as I've accidentally syphoned it out when cleaning. The tank has always had lots and lots of what I think is called mulm. I mean masses, I've never understood how planted tank people seem to have such clean tanks and wondered if they clean everyday? I've always had to disturb the top of the substrate to get the general crap out and what I've read gives the impression you shouldn't do this but I've never been able to work out how to clean otherwise and with fish in the tank I've always had to take the poo out at least. But as I have said with the disabilities I have and both of my kids been so young I just don't have the time. I figured the only thing left we could change would be the substrate and that I'd have to rescape ultimately so its good to know that there isn't enough in there. What I don't get is that people have inert substrate in their tanks and their other additives are enough to grow their plants so why not in mine? 

The lights are on their lowest setting and the general impression I've got from reading on this forum is that problems are rarely caused by not having enough light, besides are house is not big enough to stop daylight hitting the tank from one side at least.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Cat said:


> Do you think if it has all runout of nutrients after 5 years that would be enough to kill the tank, even with the COz, lights and ferts?





Cat said:


> came across Ceg's post about Potassium Nitrate and realised we had fallen down that pitfall so sorted that out but still no better.


What fertiliser are you using?

cheers Darrel


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## Cat

Hi,
I have been using Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulphate and chelated Trace. As they ran out we tried to find cheaper sources and so got some Bonsai food which I think was supposed to be Potassium Nitrate (?) and we got some Epsom Salts. Ceg's article described how Potassium Nitrate should look, feel and smell and so we realised ours wasn't as it should be and so went back to using the Aquarium Plant Food branded stuff just to try and narrow the variables.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Cat said:


> Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulphate and chelated Trace.


That should cover most bases. Do you add a separate iron source, or just the traces? 





Cat said:


> We don't use RO because we had to use it for discus fish for years and it is so wasteful, we have quite hard water here and it is a large tank so we would had been chucking a 1000 litres to produce 200 it just bothered me too much.


I'm not an advocate of RO for the same reasons.

Have a look at <"Duckweed Index says...."> if you have very hard tap water it can mean that FeEDTA isn't an effective enough chelator to supply iron. What you would be particularly looking for would be pale *new *leaves.

Because iron isn't mobile within the plant it is only leaves that grow after the iron addition (if the plants are iron deficient) that will be healthier. 

Algae will show a quicker response, so the first sign maybe a flush of green algae.

cheers Darrel


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## Cat

Do you add a separate iron source, or just the traces? 

I don't add any separate iron, I looked up the Chempak Sequestered Iron on the link you sent, do you know if it will harm the fish and how much I should add? I am a gardener so do buy things like this for the garden but don't have to worry about killing anything normally. I presume I should dissolve it first? Sorry I have no idea how to calculate this sort of thing!


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## dw1305

Hi all,
What do your plants look like, are the new leaves really small and pale? Adding iron will only make a difference if the plants are iron deficient.  





Cat said:


> I should dissolve it first? Sorry I have no idea how to calculate this sort of thing!


 You should.

There are dosing calculators you can use, like <"Rotala Butterfly">, or the method in the <"FeEDDHA"> thread.

cheers Darrel


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## Andrew Butler

Just looking in your second/most recent photo of the aquarium I spot an APF dosing bottle on top of the aquarium which looks a little dirty; any idea what this is?
I doubt very much it's anything to do with your problems but it just looks a little extra dirty.

Not a resolve to your problems really but I can picture a nice, huge piece of driftwood or 2 running along the aquarium with some ferns etc planted on it and some simple gravel to replace the ADA soil. It could make things easier to keep on top of but you need to understand what's gone wrong and why too I think.


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## Cat

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> What do your plants look like, are the new leaves really small and pale? Adding iron will only make a difference if the plants are iron deficient.   You should.
> 
> There are dosing calculators you can use, like <"Rotala Butterfly">, or the method in the <"FeEDDHA"> thread.
> 
> cheers Darrel



To be honest I rarely get many new leaves these days, they are pale though and very thin. I will try adding the iron either way, I mean once I sell the fish I will start again but I would like to better understand why it has ended up like this. There are so many variables to consider when you dig down into it, I thought I would be able to simplify things by having "easy" plants in reasonably high tech tank and I suppose it did work for a while at least. Thank you for your help!


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## Cat

Andrew Butler said:


> Just looking in your second/most recent photo of the aquarium I spot an APF dosing bottle on top of the aquarium which looks a little dirty; any idea what this is?
> I doubt very much it's anything to do with your problems but it just looks a little extra dirty.
> 
> Not a resolve to your problems really but I can picture a nice, huge piece of driftwood or 2 running along the aquarium with some ferns etc planted on it and some simple gravel to replace the ADA soil. It could make things easier to keep on top of but you need to understand what's gone wrong and why too I think.



The second bottle is the Chelated Trace bottle which stains the bottle itself, I'm assuming its the iron in it but really have no idea.

And as it happens the first thing I put in the tank was an enormous sweeping piece of bog wood it looked fantastic but I couldn't cope with all the crud that built up around it in the nooks and crannies and I had just started with the planted tank thing and all the algae was going ballistic. I later added large pieces of purple slate but then my Discus started arguing and I was worried they'd get injured. Anyway 2 years later I've decided to sell my remaining three discus and go no fish for a while until I can actually manage all this plant stuff.

Gravel would certainly be a whole lot cheaper!


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## MatthewN

I have lurked here for a while but your interesting case has really moved me to post. 



Cat said:


> We have a fluidized bed filter and various cartridge filters for the inflow for the water changes.



I have had really bad experiences with fluidized bed filters in the past, is yours homemade or a brand name? What are you using for media? When was the last time you replaced the media in it?



Cat said:


> And as it happens the first thing I put in the tank was an enormous sweeping piece of bog wood it looked fantastic but I couldn't cope with all the crud that built up around it in the nooks and crannies and I had just started with the planted tank thing and all the algae was going ballistic.



In my experience crude usually needs to come from somewhere.. from plants dying, to much food, or hardscape materials breaking down. Did you always have the same fish? From the beginning? Did you change food or add more fish? I can't really see the Discus in the first picture were they in the tank at that time?


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Cat said:


> get many new leaves these days, they are pale though and very thin. I will try adding the iron either way,


Fingers crossed. It sounds a plan, try the iron and see what happens. 





Cat said:


> There are so many variables to consider when you dig down into it,


That is it really. Plants need all <"fourteen of the essential elements for growth">, just in amounts that differ over several orders of magnitude. Plant growth is like a car assembly line, you need all the components or you don't get a "car".     

I don't test the water in the tanks, it isn't that I don't want to know what the parameters are, <"I would really like to know">, but there are a lot of technical difficulties. 

I use plant growth as a proxy for water conditions, mainly because the plants can't lie. 

cheers Darrel


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## Andrew Butler

Cat said:


> The second bottle is the Chelated Trace bottle which stains the bottle itself, I'm assuming its the iron in it but really have no idea.
> 
> And as it happens the first thing I put in the tank was an enormous sweeping piece of bog wood it looked fantastic but I couldn't cope with all the crud that built up around it in the nooks and crannies and I had just started with the planted tank thing and all the algae was going ballistic. I later added large pieces of purple slate but then my Discus started arguing and I was worried they'd get injured. Anyway 2 years later I've decided to sell my remaining three discus and go no fish for a while until I can actually manage all this plant stuff.
> 
> Gravel would certainly be a whole lot cheaper!


I'd probably agree it could be staining, just thought I'd ask - no disrespect etc meant! 
You must get through quite some fertiliser with a tank that size so spend a while mixing those small containers up - thought about bigger containers and a simple doser hidden away to make things easier? They do say not to keep mixed ferts in the light, quite the difference this makes I'm unsure

The driftwood was only a suggestion but it seems you've been that route before.
I guess Discus and the inhabitants that might help you stay on top of part of the crud issue are not compatible.
A method a lot of people seem to have take up now is using a turkey baster to blast the crud out of the nooks and crannies straight into the path of your siphon at water changes. 

People do plant in gravel; things like root tabs or even choosing plants that rely on water for their fertilisation.
Big (or small) pieces of stone with certain plant types can replace the wood and just have a minimal layer of gravel/sand.

If I'm honest I'm not confident enough to detail but many on here are if you want to avoid the aqua soil and go down the gravel route.

Flooding the thread with useless information, sorry!


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## Cat

[QUOTEI have had really bad experiences with fluidized bed filters in the past, is yours homemade or a brand name? What are you using for media? When was the last time you replaced the media in it?[/QUOTE]

I used to make the fluidized beds out of bottles and things 10 years ago when you couldn't buy them in the shops but this time we bought a V2Bio600f. I haven't ever completely replaced the media but top it up every so often. The way the tank was originally set up meant that I would occasionally syphon out some of the sand by accident and so it would get lower and lower, although we changed the way the water went through the system and this no longer happens. We also have a large external filter with very course media in it but this was put in to increase the flow in the tank after a miscommunication between my husband and I resulted in him making the holes in the spray bar bigger and greatly reducing the turbulence in the tank! What were your bad experiences?


[QUOTE In my experience crude usually needs to come from somewhere.. from plants dying, to much food, or hardscape materials breaking down. Did you always have the same fish? From the beginning? Did you change food or add more fish? I can't really see the Discus in the first picture were they in the tank at that time?[/QUOTE]

When I originally set the tank up as planted we had no fish, didn't want to expose them to ammonia spikes etc while the filters matured. Eventually I got some dwarf puffer fish and some tiny shoaling fish. Then returned to keeping Discus as I got totally sucked in to the new breeds that had become available since the last time I kept them. One thing that remained constant was general crap everywhere. I read on this forum that there are people that don't believe in "new tank syndrome" but that syndrome describes very well what I had, tones of cyanobacteria and all manner of algae that eventually abated but never disappeared. After the first year I no longer had cyanobacteria but I always had various types of algae, but two very difficult pregnancies later I was past caring!


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## Cat

I obviously haven't mastered this quoting system....


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## Edvet

Any chance you could make a phone movie? I'd like to see the flow in the tank.
Also what temperature are you keeping the tank, discus are generally kept in higher temps which can be stressfull for plants.
Waterchanges? How big, how often, using any waterpreparation like Prime?


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## Cat

Andrew Butler said:


> I'd probably agree it could be staining, just thought I'd ask - no disrespect etc meant!
> You must get through quite some fertiliser with a tank that size so spend a while mixing those small containers up - thought about bigger containers and a simple doser hidden away to make things easier? They do say not to keep mixed ferts in the light, quite the difference this makes I'm unsure
> 
> The driftwood was only a suggestion but it seems you've been that route before.
> I guess Discus and the inhabitants that might help you stay on top of part of the crud issue are not compatible.
> A method a lot of people seem to have take up now is using a turkey baster to blast the crud out of the nooks and crannies straight into the path of your siphon at water changes.
> 
> People do plant in gravel; things like root tabs or even choosing plants that rely on water for their fertilisation.
> Big (or small) pieces of stone with certain plant types can replace the wood and just have a minimal layer of gravel/sand.
> 
> If I'm honest I'm not confident enough to detail but many on here are if you want to avoid the aqua soil and go down the gravel route.
> 
> Flooding the thread with useless information, sorry!


 
I loved the driftwood, its still in the shed, I figure if I ever work out how to do an actual proper planted tank I can resurrect it!

I hated the ADA Amazonia stuff and the other bits and pieces because the white pebble things were so light they constantly blocked the syphon and I always wondered if the nutrient rich substrate contributed to the cyanobactria. Either way the balance btn light, ferts and co2 wasn't right unless you want to grow algae and bacteria of course. I don't how people find the time to waft a turkey baster around, I do a 50% water change every week so thats over 200 litres of water, I stopped heaving buckets of water up a ladder after a while and sort of automated it but it still takes about 3 hours. Now my tank has died on its blahblahblahblah I've started to reconsider the Amazonia stuff as it maybe whats been holding it all altogether for the past few years.....


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## Cat

Edvet said:


> Any chance you could make a phone movie? I'd like to see the flow in the tank.
> Also what temperature are you keeping the tank, discus are generally kept in higher temps which can be stressfull for plants.
> Waterchanges? How big, how often, using any waterpreparation like Prime?


 
Will attempt a video later when husband is around, but of course there is a lot more circulation now there are no plants in way! I either do a 50% water change every week or I do a 50% one and a 30% mid week aswell. The water coming in is filtered through a chloramine filter, an activated carbon filter and a sediment filter and some inline heaters. My Hannah instrument thing I measure the temperature has currently ran out of batteries but it would have been between at least 28, maybe higher, I would have thought. I never considered the temperature I always thought it would be alright because so many people seem to be able to keep Discus and plants?


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## Cat

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Fingers crossed. It sounds a plan, try the iron and see what happens. That is it really. Plants need all <"fourteen of the essential elements for growth">, just in amounts that differ over several orders of magnitude. Plant growth is like a car assembly line, you need all the components or you don't get a "car".
> 
> I don't test the water in the tanks, it isn't that I don't want to know what the parameters are, <"I would really like to know">, but there are a lot of technical difficulties.
> 
> I use plant growth as a proxy for water conditions, mainly because the plants can't lie.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I don't test, in part because of what I have read on this forum suggesting they are too imprecise and also because if I was syphoning out uneaten food and poo etc and doing proper big water changes every week there shouldn't be a build up of stuff anyway. I would, however, love to be able to test what ever the water company dumps in the water every so often so they'd stop harming my fish! One person told be when they've done some work they often put a lot of chlorine in afterwards and I've also heard that they will sometimes put in some sort of acid to stop our hard water scaling up all their pipes, but I have no idea if any of this is true....Unfortunately my plants talk to me constantly saying something is wrong but I can't work out whether is light, ferts, CO2, circulation or temperature but judging by what I have read on this forum it seems to come down to CO2 the most?


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## Edvet

CO2 is light related. In a low light tank you don't need to add CO2 because plantgrowth is slow and the plants use all the CO2 produced efficiently. High light increases CO2 demand ( and gives fast growth).
Look at the black cube in my links (last entry), healthy plants slow growth and just 1 simple LED floodlight.


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## Cat

Edvet said:


> CO2 is light related. In a low light tank you don't need to add CO2 because plantgrowth is slow and the plants use all the CO2 produced efficiently. High light increases CO2 demand ( and gives fast growth).
> Look at the black cube in my links (last entry), healthy plants slow growth and just 1 simple LED floodlight.



Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it was too much light, having a husband who is an electronic engineer (who built the LED lights) who has no interest in fishtanks, plants or animals but gets very excited by various bits of circuitry is quite lightly to over do it. The other problem is that the tank is bathed in natural light half the time as it takes up half the living room.


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## Edvet

So have the lighting period coincide with the natural light is the easiest ( other than heavy blackout curtains) or when thinking outside the box heavy curtains on the tank and open during lighting hours.


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## Cat

Edvet said:


> So have the lighting period coincide with the natural light is the easiest ( other than heavy blackout curtains) or when thinking outside the box heavy curtains on the tank and open during lighting hours.



Yes the trouble with that of course is that we would never see the lights on, being out all day and I wouldn't be able to feed them in the light and then remove the uneaten food. Despite all that of course the tank did function well enough for a few years before it came to this, although I have just been away for a week and I only managed to get someone to feed the fish every 3 days as no one is prepared to take on the cleaning and fertilizing understandably, so the tank is looking even worse!

Incidentally I've taken a video but I am having trouble uploading it so it might pop up later...


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## Edvet

Cat said:


> we would never see the lights on


you could start the light when you get home and open the curtains then


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## sparkyweasel

If hubby "gets very excited by various bits of circuitry" maybe he would love to build you a dimmer circuit?

You could also use floating plant to reduce the light, which could also help you diagnose problems with ferts, as CO2 is removed from the picture. Have a look at some of dw1305's post about the duckweed index, eg; https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/duckweed-index-says-nitrogen-please.50365/


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## foxfish

Looks like the plants need more C02, that is a big tank for a 2kg fire extinguisher, how long before refills?


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## Cat

sparkyweasel said:


> If hubby "gets very excited by various bits of circuitry" maybe he would love to build you a dimmer circuit?
> 
> You could also use floating plant to reduce the light, which could also help you diagnose problems with ferts, as CO2 is removed from the picture. Have a look at some of dw1305's post about the duckweed index, eg; https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/duckweed-index-says-nitrogen-please.50365/



The lights are 8 x 50W LED's, they have brightness control already and are turned down to their lowest ebb. I also ended up with an accidental duckweed infestation that lasted for a couple of years but that died too when everything else started dying?


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## Cat

foxfish said:


> Looks like the plants need more C02, that is a big tank for a 2kg fire extinguisher, how long before refills?



Hi, we got the 2kg bottles because they work out cheaper and we can actually fit them under the tank. We buy three each time so we always have one in reserve before we run out. We could turn the bubble rate up higher than we do but the fish don't like it? Drop checker is always yellow by the afternoon. I don't want to further stress the fish, what ever bubble rate we had before was enough ( more like bubble stream, too many bubbles to count ) so we're not sure what has changed. Thats why I'm thinking maybe all this time the substrate was making up for inadequate ferts and that it has finally just run out?


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## foxfish

Well you have to consider that some folk have huge success with plain gravel, I have used the same cat litter for the last 7-8 years and I still see heathy growth.
So as long as you are using water column ferts in sufficient amounts, I personally doubt your issue is based around the substrate lacking in nutrients. 
I would be interested to know how long one 2kg cylinder last?
As plant mass increases  so do the demands for nutrients, if you could do a PH profile it might help us understand more about what is happening.


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## Cat

_"Well you have to consider that some folk have huge success with plain gravel, I have used the same cat litter for the last 7-8 years and I still see heathy growth.
So as long as you are using water column ferts in sufficient amounts, I personally doubt your issue is based around the substrate lacking in nutrients"_

That was kind of the point of the whole thread....

A 2kg fire extinguisher lasts a few months. We've never been able to put more co2 in than the fish can tolerate so we are always limited by that more than anything else.


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## foxfish

I think it would pay you to investigate the waters C02 content in more depth, it could be the gas is not being distributed evenly throughout the whole tank.
Perhaps the flow could be adjusted and a PH profile completed, then maybe with that information, something might be revealed .


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## Cat

At the moment there are so few plants left that there is nothing impeding the flow of the co2. Our ph is high in Cambridge, never below 7, even with injected co2 and ferts it's around 7.5. I used to use an R.O unit and even then it was in the high 6s and 7s. I could buy more drop checkers and place them all around the tank. But I don't understand while the system could have provided adequate co2 for 5 years and then after nothing has been changed it dimishes. We do have to change the cylinder out and check the pressure is maintained and there is always a chance there is a leak or the ceramic diffuser isn't working or something gets knocked but you would have thought the drop checker wouldn't turn yellow if it wasn't getting into the water in some quantity at least?


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## foxfish

Well all I can offer are a few suggestions as obviously I don’t actually know what the issue might be.
It just appears to me the most obvious thing would be the plants are no longer receiving the same about of C02 as they once did?


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## Cat

Yes It's a conundrum! I was wondering if maybe the tubing was breaking down but its co2 rated. I've just received the Chempak Iron Darrel suggested so I'm going to see if that helps and then hopefully if I sell the fish I can start rescaping.


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## lazybones51

Cat said:


> My Hannah instrument thing I measure the temperature has currently ran out of batteries but it would have been between at least 28, maybe higher, I would have thought. I never considered the temperature I always thought it would be alright because so many people seem to be able to keep Discus and plants?


+28c is very warm, this won't be helping CO2 retention which could be part of your problem. I also believe most plants prefer cooler temperatures than this.


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## Cat

dw1305 said:


> ... There are dosing calculators you can use, like <"Rotala Butterfly">, or the method in the <"FeEDDHA"> thread....


Hi,
 The Rotala Butterfly calculator doesn't have the Chempak Sequestered Iron ( with Magnesium and Manganese ), it has DTPA 10%,11% and 8% but the one I've got says it DTPA 1.2% and it has options for EDDHA Fe 6% but I have 0.8% ? It says it's total iron soluble in water is 2.0% on the box. The warning on the box says says it contains Manganese Sulphate which is "harmful to aquatic life" so I'm getting nervous as I have fish in there.

I tried to read the other thread but I found it overwhelming, I'm an artist I haven't done "science" for 27 years. If it didn't have discus fish in it I could experiment more but I don't want to kill anything.

It says in the thread - "You know how much iron (in ppm = mg/L) you've added from the percentage of iron in the compound (6% for FeEDDHA), how many grams you've added and the volume of the aquarium. You can use one of the <"online calculators">, if you aren't confident about your calculations."

So I think if I put 1 gram per litre of Chempak in the water I will end up with 120ug of DPTA and 80ug of EDDHA in each litre of water in the tank?
In the thread FishWorks writes about aiming for !ppm of Fe DPTA, I presume I should put 10 grams of Chempak per litre then, seems a hell of a lot? Also do I ignore the  EDDHA? I'm baffled!

What I have learnt is that I've been dosing my chelated trace hugely ineffectively because I found that if I kept my ferts in a cupboard I would forget to put them in so I've been storing them in almost direct sunlight for donkies. Because it didn't say in the instructions I had to keep them out of the light I assumed this was ok, but if it becomes unavailable to the plants in 30 mins of contact with light (in the tank) then my stuff has been unavailable way before it gets in the tank. I'm not quite sure how I managed to grow anything!


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Cat said:


> I presume I should put 10 grams of Chempak per litre then, seems a hell of a lot? Also do I ignore the EDDHA? I'm baffled!


Yes, you don't need anything like that amount. 





Cat said:


> DTPA 1.2% and it has options for EDDHA Fe 6% but I have 0.8%  It says it's total iron soluble in water is 2.0% on the box


 That is fine, you only need to know the percentage of each nutrient and the volume of the tank. 





Cat said:


> I'm an artist I haven't done "science" for 27 years. If it didn't have discus fish in it I could experiment more but I don't want to kill anything.


Point taken, it is really easy to get lost in the powers of 10, I do it quite often.

We just need to make sure we don't get anywhere near adding a toxic dose of iron (Fe) or manganese (Mn).

The important bits we have are:

Tank is 450 litres
We are aiming for 0.5 ppm iron
Your fertiliser contains 2% Fe
I'll put the stages I used in below

*Some "powers of 10" bits*
Parts per million is the same unit as mg/L, so there are a million (10^6) milligrams in a Kg/litre (of water). One gram is 1000 (10^3) milligrams, and there are 1000 (10^3) grams in a litre (of water). Add the two power of 10 together and you get 10^6.

1% is equal to 10,000 mg/L (100*10,000 = 1,000,000), again easier in the powers of 10,  10^4 + 10^2 = 10^6  and 2% Fe is equal to 20,000 ppm.

*The Fertiliser bit*
So our fertiliser has 20,000 ppm of Fe. If we take 1g of "Chempak sequestered iron" and add it to 1 litre of water, we've divided 20,000/100, so we have 20 ppm Fe.

We want 0.5 ppm, which is equivalent to 1g in 40 litres (20/0.5 = 40).

You have a 450 litre tank, so we can multiply by 10 to give us how we would need in 400 litres of water:  1g x 10 = 10g and then add add on the amount we would need for the extra 50 litres, = 1.25g (40 x 1.25)

Total amount of "*Chempak sequestered iron*" to give ~0.5 ppm* = 11.25g in 450 litres*.

*Check*
I like to check, and I'm still going to use <"Rotala Butterfly"> and the 10% FeDTPA solution. We know that the 10% FeDTPA is 5 times more concentrated than the iron source we have. If I aim for 2.5 ppm (0.5 x 5) in the calculator, it should give me  11.25g as the answer (below).





cheers Darrel


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





dw1305 said:


> it is really easy to get lost in the powers of 10, I do it quite often


That is both "_I do this sort of calculation_" and "_I get lost in the powers of 10_" quite frequently.





dw1305 said:


> If we take 1g of "Chempak sequestered iron" and add it to 1 litre of water, we've divided 20,000/100, so we have 20 ppm Fe.





dw1305 said:


> I like to check


 You check through your post and then this is, honestly, just <"careless typing">, it should be "20,000/1000 = 20 ppm".

cheers Darrel


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## Cat

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Yes, you don't need anything like that amount.  That is fine, you only need to know the percentage of each nutrient and the volume of the tank. Point taken, it is really easy to get lost in the powers of 10, I do it quite often.
> 
> We just need to make sure we don't get anywhere near adding a toxic dose of iron (Fe) or manganese (Mn).
> 
> The important bits we have are:
> 
> Tank is 450 litres
> We are aiming for 0.5 ppm iron
> Your fertiliser contains 2% Fe
> I'll put the stages I used in below
> 
> *Some "powers of 10" bits*
> Parts per million is the same unit as mg/L, so there are a million (10^6) milligrams in a Kg/litre (of water). One gram is 1000 (10^3) milligrams, and there are 1000 (10^3) grams in a litre (of water). Add the two power of 10 together and you get 10^6.
> 
> 1% is equal to 10,000 mg/L (100*10,000 = 1,000,000), again easier in the powers of 10,  10^4 + 10^2 = 10^6  and 2% Fe is equal to 20,000 ppm.
> 
> *The Fertiliser bit*
> So our fertiliser has 20,000 ppm of Fe. If we take 1g of "Chempak sequestered iron" and add it to 1 litre of water, we've divided 20,000/100, so we have 20 ppm Fe.
> 
> We want 0.5 ppm, which is equivalent to 1g in 40 litres (20/0.5 = 40).
> 
> You have a 450 litre tank, so we can multiply by 10 to give us how we would need in 400 litres of water:  1g x 10 = 10g and then add add on the amount we would need for the extra 50 litres, = 1.25g (40 x 1.25)
> 
> Total amount of "*Chempak sequestered iron*" to give ~0.5 ppm* = 11.25g in 450 litres*.
> 
> *Check*
> I like to check, and I'm still going to use <"Rotala Butterfly"> and the 10% FeDTPA solution. We know that the 10% FeDTPA is 5 times more concentrated than the iron source we have. If I aim for 2.5 ppm (0.5 x 5) in the calculator, it should give me  11.25g as the answer (below).
> 
> View attachment 127424
> cheers Darrel



Thank you SO much for clearing everything up! I asked my husband to help because I couldn't even manage the ppm = mg/litre and despite being an electronic engineer he still got it wrong. Always doing these things late at night after children and general stuff is my excuse. Because of everything I read I put the ferts in the dark somewhere and now I can't find them, which is typical, so they missed their trace ferts today. So I'm probably going to end up spending all of tomorrow trying to find it but at least I can say they are dam well going to get some iron!


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Cat said:


> Thank you SO much for clearing everything up!


That is all right, I went through the steps in the post, but I already knew the answer was about 10g of EDTA from a quick bit of guesstimation. 





Cat said:


> Because of everything I read I put the ferts in the dark somewhere and now I can't find them


Been there, done that. 

It is only really the iron chelates (FeEDTA & FeDTPA ) that photo-degrade. You can use a brown glass bottle (or wrap aluminium foil around a clear one) if that makes life easier.

The FeEDDHA, isn't effected by light (it is a <"pink solution">, as long as it is pink the iron is still bound).

cheers Darrel


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## Cat

Just to be clear do I presume I add this three times a week when I add my usual trace ferts? 

It does seem unlikely if iron is so easy turned into a form that makes it unavailable for plants that my enriched substrate could have been making up for my inadequate fertilising previously. So ultimately I don't know whats going on. Most people seem concerned with CO2 but if my duckweed died as well and presumably sits on the surface and therefore has a better source of CO2 from the air rather than water wouldn't that imply it wasn't a CO2 problem? Isn't that what the duckweed formula is all about, trying to isolate one variable from another? ( By the way we always called it chickweed? It come from my pond by accident but I presume its the same thing, it was a pain in the blahblahblahblah when it was alive).

Sorry more questions!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Cat said:


> It does seem unlikely if iron is so easy turned into a form that makes it unavailable for plants that my enriched substrate could have been making up for my inadequate fertilising previously.


Slightly different in the substrate, some iron compounds may be reduced in anaerobic conditions and become plant available again. This is particularly likely to occur in the zones of <"fluctuating REDOX that surround roots">. 





Cat said:


> Just to be clear do I presume I add this three times a week when I add my usual trace ferts?


Once a week should be fine for starters. 





Cat said:


> Most people seem concerned with CO2 but if my duckweed died as well and presumably sits on the surface and therefore has a better source of CO2 from the air rather than water wouldn't that imply it wasn't a CO2 problem? Isn't that what the duckweed formula is all about, trying to isolate one variable from another?


That is exactly it, floating plants have access to aerial CO2 and first dibs on light.

cheers Darrel


.


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## Cat

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Slightly different in the substrate, some iron compounds may be reduced in anaerobic conditions and become plant available again. This is particularly likely to occur in the zones of <"fluctuating REDOX that surround roots">. Once a week should be fine for starters. That is exactly it, floating plants have access to aerial CO2 and first dibs on light.
> 
> cheers Darrel
> 
> 
> .


Thank you for your reply, for some reason I didn't get an alert about it or I would have replied earlier. I'm glad once a week is enough as my tank still looks like the amazon three days later! It's quite a different colour and I'm wondering if It's ever going to go back to normal. The fish seem happier bizarrely, I know Discus would traditionally live in dark water but these are bred in Germany in hard water, maybe their instincts are coming through despite years of breeding. I'll have a read of fluctuating Redox and try and educate myself further. It's funny because partly why I have kept going with the tank despite not really having the time is because I thought it made for a great learning opportunity for my children even if it is because of them I don't have the time for it!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Cat said:


> I'll have a read of fluctuating Redox and try and educate myself further.


I've got a few papers looking at using aquatic plants, in constructed wetlands, to treat wastewater. Unfortunately I haven't managed to find a more user friendly aquarium based version.

There is a Danish Academic, <"Ole Pedersen">, who both works in this field and keeps planted aquariums. He has written some bits for <"TAG">, but I'm not  a member and I haven't read them. There is also an <"article by Stephan Tanner"> (another academic and owner of "Swiss Tropicals"), but it doesn't talk about plants.    

These are two recent papers, <"Enhancement of facultative anaerobic denitrifying communities by oxygen release from roots of the macrophyte in constructed wetlands">, but it isn't open source  (I can get a pdf if any-one wants one?). This next one is open source.
<"_Myriophyllum aquaticum_ Constructed Wetland Effectively Removes Nitrogen in Swine Wastewater">. 

The sort of search terms you need (in Google Scholar) are "Radial Oxygen Loss (ROL)", "Constructed Wetlands"  and "Rhizosphere". 





Cat said:


> It's quite a different colour and I'm wondering if It's ever going to go back to normal.


The <"pink tint"> should fade over time. I'd actually use it as an indication of when to add iron chelate. 





Cat said:


> The fish seem happier bizarrely, I know Discus would traditionally live in dark water but these are bred in Germany in hard water, maybe their instincts are coming through despite years of breeding.


I would expect all Discus to be happier in tinted soft water, even ones bred to look like fluorescent dinner plates.





Cat said:


> It's funny because partly why I have kept going with the tank despite not really having the time is because I thought it made for a great learning opportunity for my children even if it is because of them I don't have the time for it!


I think they are a great aid to <"learning"> and teaching at all sorts of different levels, my <"children"> (<"and pets">) have really enjoyed the tanks at home.

cheers Darrel


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## Cat

dw1305 said:


> I would expect all Discus to be happier in tinted soft water, even ones bred to look like fluorescent dinner plates.



Are you calling my fish gaudy? Obviously I'm deeply offended....no seriously if I was a user of emoticons I would have put one crying with laughter here but I feel too old for such things.

So I've learnt what REDOX is now, and I read - <"_Myriophyllum aquaticum_ Constructed Wetland Effectively Removes Nitrogen in Swine Wastewater">. Most of which went straight over my head although it does seem that Myriophyllum aquaticum is great for reducing green house gases and does a lot of good in soil if you are looking particularly for denitrifying bacteria? Still it will be interesting to see if essentially iron has been my problem, what ever it is it has just stopped the plants reproducing and fundamentally thats why my tank is dying.


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## dw1305

Hi all,





Cat said:


> Are you calling my fish gaudy?


No, it wasn't intended as a criticism of your lovely Discus. Personally I'm a wild type "tabby" fish liker, but even I don't object to a bit of colour enhancement. 





Cat said:


> I read - <"_Myriophyllum aquaticum_ Constructed Wetland Effectively Removes Nitrogen in Swine Wastewater">. Most of which went straight over my head


I don't understand all of it either. I think the important bit is that the roots are leaky structures and produce much more complex microbial zonation in the sediment. The relevant bit would be:





> ......To determine whether this high efficiency was associated with the performance of active microbes, the abundance, structure, and interactions of microbial community were compared in the unvegetated and vegetated samples........that _M. aquaticum_ greatly changed the microbial community, and ammonium oxidizers (_Nitrosospira_ and _Nitrososphaera_), nitrite-oxidizing bacteria (_Nitrospira_), and abundant denitrifiers including _Rhodoplanes_, _Bradyrhizobium_, and _Hyphomicrobium_, were enriched significantly in the sediments.....


So basically the vegetated samples had a much greater diversity of microbes, for all parts of the nitrification/denitrification cycle. 





Cat said:


> Still it will be interesting to see if essentially iron has been my problem


Fingers crossed, unfortunately you have to wait a bit with iron (Fe), because it isn't mobile within the plant and only new <"leaves will be greener and healthier">.

cheers Darrel


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