# Phosphate Haters



## GreenNeedle (21 Mar 2008)

Is there an upsurge in the old 'phosphates cause algae' thought?

On TFF there seem to be increasing numbers that are giving this advice to which I and several others disagre with on the posts.

It has got to the point now where I am getting several pms a day on there from people belittling me. lol

These are todays (so far) I have removed the senders name for obvs reasons.

pm#1
_'You along with others have often stated that phosphates don't cause algae. Could you please provide some references from real peer reviewed scientific journals - something with a high impact factor like Nature would be good, though a more field specific journal would be better, but even The New Scientist would be acceptable.'_

pm#2 (regarding me using Tom Barr's research as a reference point'
_'Ok, so now the scientific community is meant to accept the research of someone that doesn't publish to peer reviewed journals? On what basis, the fanboys say so? Get real.

Its easy to make ad homie attacks when you don't have the proof to back yourself up, though its somewhat laughably ironic that many of the so-called 'new school' approaches to planted aquaria have more than a few parallels with some Victorian approaches to terestial gardening.

Oh, and if I'm old school that must make you the prat that puts four exhausts on the back of your Citroen Saxo, 'coz me mate said it'd go faster' duh!

If you have the credible research use it to prove it otherwise your just rambling like a religious zelot'_

I just replied that I don't have a saxo, I have a fiesta with no spoiler and 1 exhaust. lol

The point I make is that there does seem to be an increase in the posts on TFF stating the old phosphate removal theory!!!

What do you think

Andy


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## Garuf (21 Mar 2008)

I've noticed that, I'll be deleting my membership, that forum is dead anyway.


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## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2008)

Hi Andy,
            Yes it's the same old group of people that have been hanging on to these concepts for years. Even Sears & Conlin who trumpeted the phosphate limiting technique and PMDD eventually came around after Barr's data showed the opposite was true. You can go into just about any LFS and ask the attendant what to do about algae and the response will be to use a phosphate remover.   The only thing you can do is guide people towards our board and towards the Barr Report and show the images of what you have been able to achieve by not limiting PO4. The problem is that biochemistry and plant physiology are so complicated and have so many variables that it's easy to get wrapped around the axle and to draw invalid conclusions. There is not much you can do mate.

Barr actually references a lot of his work with posted scientific journal, so these claims of undocumented hypotheses is not accurate. I follow the links to the references but they are super-tough reading. I normally download the journal articles he references and study them for a while. If I struggle with the data or format of report he is more than happy to help clarify.

I love the saxo comment. I'm going to have to look for an opportunity to use that line at least once a month.  

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (21 Mar 2008)

Garuf-
I wouldn't say it is dead at all.  there are quite a few people on there that are quite open to advice.

Its also the forum where a lot of us started and got us to where we are now so I do still go on it a lot.

Ceg-
I liked that comment too this is the whole reply I gave to this comment:

_As for the Citroen Saxo comment. You have a hilariously way off conception of me as being a flash boy racer lol

In fact I have a 2003 1.4 Fiesta Zetec in a metallic navy blue. It is as it was when new with no mods apart from the airfreshener and 2 child seats.

I don't use the car much at all preferring to use my road racer and I cycle everywhere including 6Â½ miles to work and 6Â½ miles back everyday.

So not the boy racer. more of a respectable hard working husband and father of two lovely boys that doesn't jump in the car to go round the shop and definately not to show off to the girls.

I am not a fan of text messages preferring to use phones for their intended use of conversing.

I do not go around with jeans around my thighs, showing off my boxers, with baggy tracksuit tops on and I don't own a baseball cap.

I have no gold chains or bracelets and apart from my Seiko watches own no other jewellery._

I then fuelled the member a little by critising the fish stockings in his 4 tanks so I eagerly await a lambasting now he ,he.

Andy


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## zig (21 Mar 2008)

Well its really up to the moderators to set the tone on any forum I think, obviously they cannot be there all the time but their thinking or good practice usually permeates through the forum to other members and the knowledge base grows. You got to remember though that TFF is primarily a fish forum so this is where a lot of thinking comes from plus conflicting reports from certain writers in PFK mag etc so you can't blame them really. Ask the poster to ask the question here or any other dedicated plant forum and that should change their tune.

The "same old group of people" as quoted by ceg is 90% of fishkeepers I would imagine.


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## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2008)

Love it..   

Cheers,


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## Garuf (21 Mar 2008)

Andy, I started on the planted tank, in comparison tff was the nicer forum but now its reached a point where its always the same question again and again and again, normally why are my plants dying, is this aquatic and what is this algae? I've not replied to a post in no end of visits, mainly because they're all questions that have already been asked and answered a million times before. For me I just don't enjoy going on there any more, since George left it went into free fall. The number of questions asked reflects this decline, I remember there being a page of new threads everyday, now it would take at least 4 to get to that number. 

I agree with who ever just said 90% of fish keepers.


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## GreenNeedle (21 Mar 2008)

I agre TFF is not as it was and yes there are a lot of questions being asked over and over which is a little annoying but I put this down to the fact that the planted scene is taking off at the moment whereas when I first started going in there it was quite a small section really.

Loads of posters still but nowadays there are loads of posts from people who are just starting out.

I remember when I started I was under the impression I need to try and get up to 4WPG (Just like you were I think) until I started seeing some scapes with much lower lighting still growing the supposedly high light plants.  This as you all know sent me down the road of reducing my lighting rather than increasing and Im glad I did.

There are still loads of threads on there from newbies being told they need 3-4WPG to which I jump in with both feet ready for a pasting by the old schoolers. lol

Andy


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## Garuf (21 Mar 2008)

I wasn't told to reach 4wpg, ohhhhhh no on a 10 gallon, I was told to stick as many power compacts over it as possible, my aim was 10+wpg. 
Yeah I know how it is, I agree with you on the all being newb's thing I think the forum needs to set out a revised guide to set up. 

I plan on reducing my light, only thing is I foolishly bought 4 36powercompacts that I'll need to use before other wise I'll just be miffed at wasting money.


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## Steve Smith (21 Mar 2008)

I tend to post the odd reply in the planted section to the basic "n00b" questions which I know the answer too.  I mainly use TFF for fish related posts and the buy/sell section these days - I've just started off with Livebearers  :?


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## GreenNeedle (21 Mar 2008)

replying to the Citroen Saxo comment the pm'r says this:

_I was actually alluding to the excessive use of toys with dubious worth within the general and planted aquarist population as a whole. Rather than accusing you of beiong a boy racer. That said I doubt I was any further off than your 'old school' comment._

I guess I should throw the UV, CO2 DC etc out now. lol

Andy


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## Ed Seeley (22 Mar 2008)

DevUK said:
			
		

> I've just started off with Livebearers  :?



Any interesting speices?  Always been fascinated by the more unusual wild types and species but never really kept any!


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## Steve Smith (22 Mar 2008)

eds said:
			
		

> Any interesting speices?  Always been fascinated by the more unusual wild types and species but never really kept any!



Red laced snakeskin guppies, and some leopard endlers.  Got some pics and stuff over here at TFF


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## Ed Seeley (22 Mar 2008)

DevUK said:
			
		

> eds said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very nice, especially the guppies.  I really love the wild green swordtails and huge wild green sailfin mollies.  Unfortunately never had the space or right water to do them justice so I'll leave them in other people's tanks until I have a fish room.  Then they can go with the Tanganyikan cichlids in some hard water tanks.


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## TDI-line (22 Mar 2008)

I have a saxo.


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## nry (22 Mar 2008)

I had a Vauxhall Nova 1.3SR with a 4" exhaust.  Yeah, I know, stupid choice of exhaust!  Nice car though, high-lift cam, 4-into-1 manifold with straight through centre section, free-flow air filter.  I miss it   Roll on mid-life crisis Impreza Turbo


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## GreenNeedle (22 Mar 2008)

I have a Tifosi - Columbus CK3 with mavic CMX33 rims and deore hubs.
Vittoria blue kevlar tyres, campag chorus headset, cannondale stems.
blah blah.  I use the bike more than the car as I said earlier. lol

Andy


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## nry (22 Mar 2008)

Had a Manitou full suspension (based on Manitou II elastomer only, 2.5" travel, wow!) many years back, mavic ceramic rims, deore XT groupset, lovely...got a bit old and worn out though, I had it 2nd hand, originally Â£3000+ new, I paid Â£1400 then sold it many years later for Â£150!  Blimey...deflation of what!  Swapped it for an Orange a few years ago which has ~30 miles on the clock, been in the shed and never used, one day, honest!


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## Themuleous (22 Mar 2008)

TFF has gone downhill and its a massive shame.  First AE started a forum and that hit TFF a bit, now Ukaps and very few of the UK's best planty people visit it.  I still try to do my bit as its were I first started and I think I owe it, but I cant guarantee I'll be there for ever, esp if Ukaps keeps on growing! Ok its mostly fish based but most people get into the hobby via the fish first route, so its normal that they venture down to the plant forum at some stage, I like to be there to help them start and to point them in the direction of Ukaps (on the sly obviously).

I also want to support Llj, she's cool and I'd hate to see the forum vanish now shes a mod.

Just my Â£0.02 worth.

Sam


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## Sandra (22 Mar 2008)

im not a member of tff but am on tfc. I have just posted a message there, as am getting fed up with the pages not loading.


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## Garuf (22 Mar 2008)

I found this and it made me think of this discussion.


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## ulster exile (22 Mar 2008)

I think the problem is that places like TFF really help the beginner whereas places like this are for the very advanced planted tank enthusiast.  It's difficult when you're not quite the beginner, but far from the standards of some (read most) of the tanks on here and it is hard to find the middle ground and all too easy to repeat what you hear without understanding it.  

I could imagine that it must be frustrating to hear the same "myths" being repeated time and again but without the people who frequent this place continuing to frequent the places where beginners start, how are the beginners ever to learn the truth of the matter?


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## Sandra (23 Mar 2008)

I cant believe it, im a member of tfc and I expressed my annoyance that they are having problems with pages loading, but it is happening constantly now for about 2 weeks. And now theya re having a ago at me.


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## Themuleous (23 Mar 2008)

Their loss, our gain


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## Sandra (23 Mar 2008)

I know, thats what i have basically told them, that i have gone elsewhere as i am fed up with trying to get on their forum. 
And i have moved on now, and i want to do a planted tank next. And i think i will get much better info from you guys. Thanks for listening.


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## Themuleous (23 Mar 2008)




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## ulster exile (23 Mar 2008)

Sorry but TFC is a free forum and survives on the goodwill of the site owner plus a few donations now and again - it seems ungrateful to complain about some access issues when it's provided free!  It's not like it's a service you've paid for and have a right to complain, nor is it their fault - it's the fault of the servers.  

Not wishing to spam this thread as it's clearly a TFC issue so I'll post no more on the subject, other than to say that to slag off a free forum which provides newbies plenty of advice when they're starting out seems unfair.


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## ceg4048 (24 Mar 2008)

I agree with Chrisi. We all have the privelege of excercising freedom of choice. There is no point denigrating other forums, otherwise we run the risk of becoming snobs. It would be better to be content to gently steer others our way when the opportunity presents itself regarding planted tanks and respect the choices that other's have made.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (24 Mar 2008)

On the bright side of TFF the questions have been so basic recently they are good practice to answer


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## Sandra (24 Mar 2008)

ulster exile said:
			
		

> Sorry but TFC is a free forum and survives on the goodwill of the site owner plus a few donations now and again - it seems ungrateful to complain about some access issues when it's provided free!  It's not like it's a service you've paid for and have a right to complain, nor is it their fault - it's the fault of the servers.
> 
> Not wishing to spam this thread as it's clearly a TFC issue so I'll post no more on the subject, other than to say that to slag off a free forum which provides newbies plenty of advice when they're starting out seems unfair.




im sorry, didnt realise it was a free forum. And hasnt seen any messages explaining about server problems. 
I didnt mean to slag anyone or anything off, and was just expresing my annoyance of the difficulty in getting onto the forum.
I have posted a second message (the first one disappeared) explaining that i was sorry and that i would like this not to carry on.


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## George Farmer (24 Mar 2008)

My plants love phosphate.  So much so that algae doesn't get a look in...


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## Lisa_Perry75 (24 Mar 2008)

I love that cartoon! Sooo describes me!


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## Sandra (24 Mar 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> I found this and it made me think of this discussion.



my husband says this is soo me LOL


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## GreenNeedle (25 Mar 2008)

My posts if you look at them are often 2 or 3 in the morning for some strange reason


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## beeky (1 Apr 2008)

I find it very strange that there is so much conflicting information about and it's very confusing for people especially when theories and ideas are then reiterated as facts. You can pick up a copy of PFK and read two different views on phosphates/nitrates in one sitting.

I first started doubting the nitrate/phosphate issue a few years ago when I bought a few test kits (out of guilt mostly as all the 'experts' said I needed to test) and found my phosphate was 4+ppm. Nitrate was around 50ppm. I couldn't understand this as by rights I should have been inundated with algae. OK, so the actual values may not be accurate from test kits but if they change colour then they've found something!

It's a bit hypocritical when others point to a lack of scientific proof showing that phosphate doesn't cause algae when the converse is true.


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## plantbrain (1 Apr 2008)

Welcome to my world for the last 15 years  

Do not become cynical though.
Have mercy and be compassionate to them personally.
Stick to reason and the topic.

Look for solutions that answer the question, not banter and personal attacks.

One thing to also consider, while you know you may never convince them of the reasoning, other folks read the web and read the logic. So your audience is much larger than the two people going at each other.

Yes, there is a lot of hypocritical comments.
The issue with plants and algae in aquariums is not a big issue for folks in the Scientific community  
So you are not going to find much there.

You need to know how to use such peer review articles and apply them in support of your observations, test and then see for yourself.

I suggest the Socratic method.
Do not convince me, I merely ask the questions that will lead you down the path that will make you question your own ideas and thoughts.

You ultimately must convince yourself of the logic.
"Belief" is a poor method and I do not suggest folks do that.

As far as research papers, Bachmann's are well known. Very nice guy.

Regarding PMDD: what Paul and Kevin initially went with was a good foundation and approach.
But they did not test the very hypothesis they proposed :!: 
So they got nailed.

If you make a hypothesis, it must be tested to see if it's true or not don't you think?
Thus every hypothesis must be "falsifiable".

If you test it and cannot come to any reasonable conclusion, or cannot falsify it, then you tenatively accept it unless you figure out some other way to disprove it.

You keep picking at it again and again.
Leave no stone unturned.

But such approaches do not answer why you get algae, only what it cannot possibly be due to.
Many folks assume testing something will show "cause". This is very difficult, and there be several/many causes and interdependent realtionships(light, CO2 and NH4, O2, fish loading, current etc).

However, we can test one thing at a time easily.
But the folks that ask and demand "proof", research etc, they often do not even have a control for the experiment(what might that be for planted tanks?), to work from, very poor testing skills, no clue how to set up the test to answer the question to begin with.

All basic stuff to go forth and ask and learn about the issue.

I spent a lot of time measuring PO4, light, CO2 etc.
I got good at it.

Still, even folks with little test skills, knowledge about all the baloney, can still grow plant well by looking at the plants and adding ferts.

Just good observation alone and that's my personal background prior to all this.
Ironic really.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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