# Dwarf Gouarmi & Boesemani Rainbow Thoughts?



## PAYN3Y (11 Sep 2018)

Hi guys,

So I’m getting a little bored with the fish variety in my Aquascaper 900. My current stick list is as follows:

18 Cardinals Tetra
10 Black Phantom Tetras
2 Male Golden Rams
2 Male Blue Rams
6 Ottos 

I really enjoy watching the behaviour of the rams - especially the 2 larger golden rams but I feel something is missing and I want more colour and variety to the tank. 

The two fish I have my eye on are dwarf gouramis or the rainbows. I’ve read a fair bit about keep male gouramis being a bad idea but seem to get mixed reviews. I’ve read that the rainbows may swim a bit fast as make the tetras and rams feel insecure and hide. Ideally I’d like 1 normal and 1 powder blue DG and around 5 rainbows. Would this be a really bad idea?

Any suggestions on what to stock? What else adds some nice variety and colour to the planted tank?


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## 14crazychris (11 Sep 2018)

Could look at dwarf neon rainbows? Don’t get large but still would create a feature Fish shoal?
Cheers Chris


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (11 Sep 2018)

Cories?


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## PAYN3Y (11 Sep 2018)

14crazychris said:


> Could look at dwarf neon rainbows? Don’t get large but still would create a feature Fish shoal?
> Cheers Chris



I’ll take a look at those. Thanks. 



Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Cories?



I like cories and have been considering them for the bottom although I hear they like a sand substrate and I only have soil and plants. 

Ideally I’m after some colorfish fish that swim a little higher.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (11 Sep 2018)

Have a look at pencilfish


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## PAYN3Y (11 Sep 2018)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> Have a look at pencilfish



Wouldn’t recommend either of my original suggestions then?


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (11 Sep 2018)

Personally I've not kept rainbows so can't comment.

 I have kept gourami a number of times. Every time I have said to myself never again. My personal experience is that they are bullies in the aquarium.


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## john dory (12 Sep 2018)

I've had boesemanis for years now..and they have become quite tame.
They'll take flake from the hand and bloodworm straight from the end of a syringe(like feeding a baby from a bottle)
Totally non aggressive.. but are boisterous when spawning(usually first light)
Just watched mine spawn along with my cory.
Rummy nosed tetras and harlequins have had eggs for breakfast


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## alto (12 Sep 2018)

PAYN3Y said:


> Ideally I’d like 1 normal and 1 powder blue DG and around 5 rainbows.


I’d suggest rather more than 2 DG - one will end up the bully & one will end up the bullied 
Instead I’d try a group of 5, make sure you have sufficient plants/decor breaking up sight lines ... of course fish are not that stupid, but most “average” bully fish will allow themselves to be distracted 
Occasionally you’ll get a fish that MUST own the entire tank & will ceaselessly harrass target fish (usually same species, or similar shaped/coloured fish) - only solution is removal of this particular fish to an alternate tank/home

When selecting DG at the shop, spend a good amount of time observing fish for health/activity - then select middle ground fish (the most submissive fish may have health issues so best to avoid)

I’d add the DG first, allow 2-4 weeks to establish before adding rainbows 

My opinion is that 90cm is a minimum length tank for rainbows, and choose smaller species - many of the larger rainbows are tall, thick fish as adults so look at mature photos when choosing a rainbow species 
I’d do a shoal of 7-8 minimum (or more if a pseudomugil type species)

I kept a shoal of M praecox in a 90cm tank some while back, all was well until the dominant male decided to eliminate inappropriate fish from HIS territory ... I was losing a couple fish a week with no symptoms of disease etc  
finally saw him body slamming a victim in the wee hours of the morning 

If you notice a change in your other fish behaviour after adding the DG or rainbows, then you know something needs to change ... 
I’d likely rehome the Black Phantoms before adding rainbows - they won’t stand a chance in case of adversity, & they won’t easily give ground initially ... if tank were EA1200 I might try both the phantoms & rainbows to see how they get on


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## john dory (12 Sep 2018)

I'd also suggest keeping rainbows in a ratio of 1 male to 3 females.
The males are quite persistent at spawning time.


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## PAYN3Y (12 Sep 2018)

Thanks @alto - that’s a great response.

DG behaviour sounds similar to the Rams with the dominant males. Initially I had 1 male and one female ram. The male didn’t like the female and bullied her - she died a few days later. After that I bought 3 more makes. One was from the same group as the original holder ram and 2 were German blues from a different tank. They have a little tussle ever now and then but it looks more playful than viscous. The original ram is definitely the king in there though.

Interesting what you say about the black phantoms. It was my impression that the rainbows were very peaceful fish. For what reason would they trouble the phantoms?

Do you think adding 5 DG and forgetting the rainbows may be a sensible option? Enough males to dissipate the aggression. No females to fight over and keep hold of the phantoms? Obviously looking for signs of a significant bully.


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## alto (12 Sep 2018)

Rainbows are active, boisterous fish, & (as in my experience - which is not unique) they may demand tank space if other fish don’t readily give ground


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## alto (12 Sep 2018)

Strange - lost a reply 

DG are worth a go (especially if you’ve a shop that will accept returns/trades) - note the different colour forms can differ significantly in degree of “aggression” ... I’ve no idea if this is a consequence of line breeding or possibly “parent” fish used to generate the color forms 

Read up on DG iridovirus so you know want to look for in shop stock & in your own tank


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## alto (12 Sep 2018)

Note rams are also subject to iridovirus


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## john dory (12 Sep 2018)

Just like to clarify...when I say"totally non aggressive"i mean towards each other,and small fish.
I've never mixed them with anything else in their size range.


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## PAYN3Y (12 Sep 2018)

alto said:


> Strange - lost a reply
> 
> DG are worth a go (especially if you’ve a shop that will accept returns/trades) - note the different colour forms can differ significantly in degree of “aggression” ... I’ve no idea if this is a consequence of line breeding or possibly “parent” fish used to generate the color forms
> 
> Read up on DG iridovirus so you know want to look for in shop stock & in your own tank



I've heard a bit about iridovirus. It seems almost too common. I've just been to a local shop to look at some DG and noticed one looking a bit worse for wear, breathing heavily at the bottom of the tank. They didn't seem like very active fish either. Seems a little risky to me as I certainly wouldn't want to infect my rams. However, they did have a tank full of female DG which were much more active. Just very bland in comparison. 

They also have a tank with a mix of honey and pearl gouarmis. They were much more colourful than I imagined and seemed to be very active. There was some chasing amongst them but there didn't appear to be a leader. I wonder if I could get away with 2 of each.


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## alto (12 Sep 2018)

Sorry for the confusion

These would be different iridovirus- which are often species (or closely related species) specific 

Pearl gourami are rather more substantial fish than DGs - they look a fair size even in George Farmer’s EA 1200 so consider this aspect 

Hoyney gourami are one of my favourites but only the DG crossbreds are available in local shops


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## jameson_uk (13 Sep 2018)

alto said:


> Rainbows are active, boisterous fish, & (as in my experience - which is not unique) they may demand tank space if other fish don’t readily give ground


From what I have read and seen I wouldn't put Boesemani rainbows in a 90cm tank as I think they would be a bit restricted when fully grown.  They were in my original plan and would love to keep them in the future.

I ended up with Dwarf Neon rainbows (praecox) and these were amazing fish.  I found them active but not crazy like Danios  and I ended up with more males than females and had no issues.  They would show to each other at first light that was amazing to watch but never any real aggression.   That said I lost all 10 over several months, still not sure why and will definitely try again with them in the future.

My experience of DG was a healthy looking one from LFS that lasted about six weeks.  Think it had iridovirus and from what I have read (and after speaking to owner of LFS) it seems like 50% probably have it.  He was a bit aggressive but I only had one (they are closely related to Betta so I guess you can just get some mental ones).  I wouldn't go for a DG again.

Some people seem to get away with several female Bettas but not sure I would trust them in with other fish.


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## mort (13 Sep 2018)

Your current stock does better in soft water but most rainbows are happiest in harder water so consider this as well. Tank bred fish are normally very adaptable however.
Pearl gourami are very gentle and graceful, they are probably the only species I would recommend to anyone as well, but I think they would outgrow the grow. I'm really not a fan of the dwarf gourami species simply because they were poor quality when I first had them a couple of decades ago and time has only weakened them.

I'd consider keeping your rams the focus of the tank and complimenting them with another tetra species like rosy tetras or even diamond tetras which look like nothing in the shop but are stunning when mature.


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## PAYN3Y (13 Sep 2018)

mort said:


> Your current stock does better in soft water but most rainbows are happiest in harder water so consider this as well. Tank bred fish are normally very adaptable however.
> Pearl gourami are very gentle and graceful, they are probably the only species I would recommend to anyone as well, but I think they would outgrow the grow. I'm really not a fan of the dwarf gourami species simply because they were poor quality when I first had them a couple of decades ago and time has only weakened them.
> 
> I'd consider keeping your rams the focus of the tank and complimenting them with another tetra species like rosy tetras or even diamond tetras which look like nothing in the shop but are stunning when mature.



Yeah I think I've been put off the dwarfs. Can't be bothered with unnecessary health battles. 

The only thing about more tetras is they seem to lack a bit of personality. I've really enjoyed watching the rams as they seem like 'thinking fish'. I only really see two at a time and it just seems like there is something missing in the tank. The tetras are great at filling the space but I would really like some more feature fish. Maybe more rams then?


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## mort (13 Sep 2018)

PAYN3Y said:


> Yeah I think I've been put off the dwarfs. Can't be bothered with unnecessary health battles.
> 
> The only thing about more tetras is they seem to lack a bit of personality. I've really enjoyed watching the rams as they seem like 'thinking fish'. I only really see two at a time and it just seems like there is something missing in the tank. The tetras are great at filling the space but I would really like some more feature fish. Maybe more rams then?



I completely get what you mean and cichlids do have more interaction than tetras. The trouble is finding a balance with rams. You might only see two at a time because this is the way they have setup their territories as they tend to claim a few square feet of floor space. That might mean you don't have room for more so you either need to look at something else or use the policy of packing them in which reduces the risk of an individual being picked on. I've not tried it so I'll let someone else give their opinion on that.
There are other species that I've seen mixed with rams that are similar, like apistogramma. So you might be able to get what you need from them but again I've never mixed the two species so I'll let others advise.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (14 Sep 2018)

Yeah you want enough territory with rams. As a guide each pair needs 2 square feet MINIMUM.

I don't believe the policy of overstocking them works with dwarf cichlids personally it is more appropriate for mbunas etc.

I do mix dwarf cichlid types BUT the policy i follow is that I only mix from the same area, in my case South America (as this means they understand each other's signals etc) and different species (microgeophagus pair, apitstogramma pair, nannacara pair...) BUT you still need sufficient tank floor space for this.  In my case it was 6 dwarf cichlids max using the above rule.


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## alto (14 Sep 2018)

I wouldn’t mix Apistogramma with M ramirezi - especially in a 90cm tank - most Apisto are way tougher than any ram variants currently available in the trade (though I’ve had some very “tough” wilds they are still much smaller than most Apisto)
Both species will be seeking/holding territory in the same lower zones of the tank

You might consider Dicrossus filamentosus - do some research before deciding,
I began with a group of dull grey (wild caught) juveniles in a heavily planted Juwel Rio 180 which turned out to be 4-5 males, 3-4 females (sorry I’ve forgotten exact numbers) - they were a determined social group that always moved about the tank as a group, females spawned within a few inches of each other, 2 males matured decidedly faster & were dominant to junior boys but I never saw any real aggression (no roughed scales or fin damage) ... all boys showed lovely color & extended finnage, females are quite colourful in breeding dress 

Again though, I’d do a group or Dicrossus OR M ramirezi 


If you want to expand your ram group, I’d try for 4-5 females, and 3-4 males - I know this is in contradiction to how some people keep Rams, but I find groups do better long term than a couple “pairs” or a single “pair”
These are not really pair bonding fish, though occasionally you’ll manage to find a long term compatible couple 

You may also end up with overly dominant or submissive fish in the group, I remove these to alternate tanks
Some individual fish do fine, others seem to prefer life as lowest fish in a group
 - I’ve not had dominant fish fail to do fine on their own 

Note that my tap water is very soft, pH 6ish - there are published scientific behavioural papers on pH/ hardness effects on fish activity,breeding etc


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (15 Sep 2018)

Dicrossus need very soft water indeed... practically RO!


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## alto (15 Sep 2018)

I actually kept my Dicrossus in Ireland - definitely not RO soft water there judging by all the limescale products sold in the shops 
Water report listed pH 7.4 average, conductivity 300-400, neglible nitrites/nitrates 
I had no test kits at the time (not much available locally) & I’d found the D filamentosus juvies on a trip to Portabello street in London (buying the last 9)


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## PAYN3Y (19 Sep 2018)

Just thought I'd update this thread.

I went to the best LFS and they had a lot of Gouramis. The had some very healthy looking dwarfs, some not so healthy looks blues and some cross-bread mostly red with blue line at the top. I was very tempted with the standard ones but decided to go for the pearls in the end. 

I bought one male and two females - beautiful fish. Unfortunately one of the females was very skittish in the tank for the first couple of days and I didn't see her at all, even when the other two started getting more confident. Last night I did some maintenance and found her dead in the cupboard beneath the tank! She must have flipped out of the back - a pretty tragic end. 

The remaining male and female now seem very happy and spend a lot of time almost kissing and circling around each other. It's fascinating to watch. Do you think they'll be ok just as a pair?


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## alto (21 Sep 2018)

I’d just wait a couple weeks & see how they go on
“skittish” especially “very skittish” can often be an indication the fish is not feeling all that well 

I always feel rather sad at their imagined demise (some (research) reports suggest fish enter a “shock-like” state ... so I like to believe this is likely)


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