# Help! plant deficiency or toxicity ? ( new pics)



## Emilio (27 Feb 2017)

hello everyone,
as the title suggests I'm not sure whats wrong with my mont carlo, its been carpeting well however i have noticed some deficiency or something wrong. some leaves don't appear healthy.
leaves seem to be almost transparent around the outside and lighter in the middle , as the photos below show.
the flow is very good.
its been Set up for almost a month now

*
Tank size* : mini s (13 litres or so)
*Lighting : *high
*CO2* : 1 bps
*Ferts* : Tropica specialised and premium 1 pump each on different days
*substrate:* tropica soil , ada power sand and additives* 
water : *treated tap water 

pictures:



 


notice the leaves on the left 


 





 

also there is some hemianthus micranthemoides in the back which seems to have similar leaves which are a little pale and are not a very lush green colour. 
 any help apprenticed
thanks


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## roadmaster (28 Feb 2017)

Might try reducing high lighting(intensity, hours) and increasing CO2 a bit more to 2 or 3 bps?
Maybe also try two pumps of the fertilizer solution at dosing time.
Would see what this did over two week's
Me thinks under high lighting ,plant mass may have increased to point where what was once good as far as nutrient 's go, may need bumped up along with CO2.


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## Daveslaney (28 Feb 2017)

Agree.Abit of trial and error really.But if your light intensity is high your ferts and co2 need to be high to create a balance.


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## Worshiper (28 Feb 2017)

I had the same problem with MC..I reckon you need to up your CO2 injection-- BPS may not be the best indicator of how much Co2 you are putting in, what does your DC say?

Also check your flow/distribution across the lower level of the tank. best case scenario-- reduce your lighting and begin from there.. hope this helps


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## Emilio (28 Feb 2017)

hello, thanks for the replies.
ferts are high as tropica recommends doing 5 pumps per 50litres a week 
i have  been dosing much more. 
co2 was 2bps until amano shrimp where 4 days ago,
however i will try up the co2  today,
and reduce the lights 

but 
do you guys think there could be a possibility that its a micronutrients toxicity?

cheers


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## Worshiper (28 Feb 2017)

Hi Emilio, I am not sure about that.. TBH i feel it's just maintaining the balance like Daveslaney said above.. your light may be too high for the Co2 going in... what colour is your drop checker??


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## Emilio (28 Feb 2017)

sorry forgot to say,
 i don't use a dc


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## Worshiper (28 Feb 2017)

Emilio: IMHO you need one to know how much of Co2 is in the water column.
Read the tuts on the Co2 section. It will help you understand more about Co2, DCs etc. 
Ive learnt sooo much from the amazin ppl on UKAPS which has helped me in the hobby! (I am still learning ).


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## Emilio (28 Feb 2017)

yes i agree i have learnt a lot from ukaps my self, 
however i don't really like to use DCs, i find them unreliable i prefer to use my ph to understand if there is a adequate co2 supply.
iv bumped up the co2 today and decreased light intensity slightly. 
hopefully there will be some improvement.
thanks


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## Emilio (1 Mar 2017)

so decided to go ahead and double ferts like suggested, 
also does anyone know the symptoms of some toxicities ,can't seem to find any online .
cheers


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## Emilio (3 Mar 2017)

some new picture of the hemianthus micranthemoides, have been dosing double the ferts for a few days now and haven't seen improvement ,there getting worst co2 has been bumped up to 3 bps gradualy.   
as you can see the leaves appear unhealthy


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## ian_m (3 Mar 2017)

Emilio said:


> also does anyone know the symptoms of some toxicities ,can't seem to find any online


There are no symptoms of toxicities as you have found, as the ferts in levels you might get in your tank are non toxic.

Due to a pump timer failure I ran with 400ppm NO3 and 80ppm PO4 for a week. Fish carried on scoffing & swimming and being fish, no change to their behaviour. Plants carried on growing. No algae. Just really a waste of ferts for absolutely no benefit to the plants.

So basically you cannot realistically overload ferts to cause plant (and fish issues).


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## ian_m (3 Mar 2017)

From your pictures I would say lack of Mg or Fe is your problem. You need to ascertain if your Tropica is supplying enough Mg or Fe.

You might find the Fe is reacting with substrate and precipitating out.

Adding Mg is easy, just add Epsom salts (available from Ebay and chemist).


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## dw1305 (3 Mar 2017)

Hi all,





ian_m said:


> You might find the Fe is reacting with substrate and precipitating out.


Would be my guess. The new leaves are chlorotic, and that is usually a problem with iron.

cheers Darrel


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## Emilio (3 Mar 2017)

sorry for the silly questions but how do i find out if the fe is reacting with the substrate , and how do i sort the problem out,

thanks


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## xim (3 Mar 2017)

1 pump equals 1.2 ml. And according to Tropica Plant Nutrition Liquid, the weigh of 1.2 ml. is 1.248 grams.

Each 1.248 grams of Specialised or Premium contains 0.8736 mg of Fe, which is 0.0672 PPM for 13 litres.
Dosing 0.0672 PPM of Fe daily is right in the EI ballpark for Micros. And your current plant mass is not even that large.

Now you've doubled the dosage to 0.1344 PPM of Fe daily for a few days without noticeable improvement.
Although you may have to wait for about one or two weeks to be sure but I'm more leaning toward magnesium deficiency or something else.
Because the chelators Tropica uses are DTPA and HEEDTA which are quite strong.


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## Emilio (3 Mar 2017)

So what do you guys advise i do, dose Fe , does Mg,?
How do i know if theres a precipitation issue and how do i solve it?
My tapwater is hard, and i do almost daily water top offs,
 Could this be a issue should i try lower the ph ?

Cheers


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## dw1305 (3 Mar 2017)

Hi all,





xim said:


> Although you may have to wait for about one or two weeks to be sure but I'm more leaning toward magnesium deficiency or something else. Because the chelators Tropica uses are DTPA and HEEDTA which are quite strong.





Emilio said:


> My tapwater is hard, and i do almost daily water top offs,


Definitely could be magnesium, because the water is hard (calcium (Ca) rich) and a high level of calcium ions can effect the uptake of both Mg and Fe. Adding magnesium won't hurt in any case.

I still think that iron is the most likely deficiency, just because the deficiencies, that cause chlorosis, are nitrogen (N), potassium (K), magnesium (Mg) and iron (Fe), and the first three are mobile within the plant and effect old leaves first, but iron isn't mobile and effects new leaves.

cheers Darrel


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## Emilio (3 Mar 2017)

Ok thanks everyone , will buy some epsom salt tomorrow from boots.
but if Fe is precipitating out , then wouldn't adding more iron not make a difference.
if this is the case what do i do.
something must be causing nutrients uptake difficuties. 

thanks


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## Emilio (4 Mar 2017)

forgot to mention that on the new growth of the hemianthus micranthemoides the stem (the tip) seems flimsy, it doesn't stay upright and is bent.


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## xim (4 Mar 2017)

That is probably the effect of strong light which makes most stem plants look more bushy. It is definitely not the weight because if you uproot or trim them, they will float.


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## Victor (4 Mar 2017)

My plants are suffering with this problem during years. Actually nobody knows what cause transparent leaves. You can try every thing, increase CO2 to an absurd level won't help at all. The glassy leaves will be still there even if you keep very high CO2, low light and very good flow and ferts during months. Increasing Fe level is another frustrated attempt, won't help. I tried every thing! A guy told me that glassy leaves could be micronutrient toxity so I've limited Fe dosage to 0,05 ppm per week, Cu: 0,00378 ppm,
Mn: 0,025 ppm, Zn: 0,0049 ppm, Mo: 0,0068 ppm and B: 0,019 ppm. All them weekly dosage. Got some improvement? I don't know yet. It has passed 1 month and I still see glassy leaves growing. But is too early to take some conclusion for now. I like to test a thing during, at least, 3 months. How strong is your light to be considered high light?




This a picture of my pogostemon. Note that left-hand side plant is completely transparent. I'm losing all my pogostemons. I've planted about 50 small stems of pogostemon. Now I have less than 20. They just melt off and die. Even the stems that look healthy like the one the right-hand side desintegrates after some weeks. It's the 21's centuary enigma.


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## xim (4 Mar 2017)

When I experimented about Fe and Cu, Zn ratio in my micro mix. Rotala Green showed some glassy leaves when I stopped dosing Cu. But in the case of the OP, both of Tropica's liquid ferts contain generous amount of Cu. If there is Cu shortage from using their ferts, I don't know what to switch to (and I think I'm already quite obsessed about ingredients of micro mixes, DIY or branded, available in the hobby).


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## HiNtZ (4 Mar 2017)

I see that you're in London - that would be Thames water like me. High calcium, very very low Mg. Mine out the tap is barely 2ppm. Try adding some MgSo4. Get it from the chemists.

EDIT: Pretty sure I heard someone say there is a link between Mg and Fe. Without Mg, or too much Mg, Fe uptake will be inhibited. Not gospel - just repeating what I heard.


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## Emilio (5 Mar 2017)

Hello , I do believe there is somthing interfering with the uptake of Fe or Mg

Not sure what , maybe lowering the ph... would that work ?

Also I'm going to begin dosing Mg tomorrow,
As for Fe I'm not sure whether to dose more,

Any straight forward recommendations ?

Eg :
1.Dose Mg and Fe ??

2. Just do Mg ?

3.just Lower ph /kh ?

Which should I do
I don't want things to start melting .

Thanks for all the replies.


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## dw1305 (5 Mar 2017)

Hi all,





Emilio said:


> Also I' going to begin dosing Mg tomorrow, As for Fe I'm not sure whether to dose more,


You can start with adding more magnesium, you will see (or not see) a response fairly quickly. Magnesium is mobile within the plant and, if it is magnesium deficiency, when you add it you get a very quick greening response.

Iron isn't mobile, which means that the plant can't move it to the pale chlorotic leaves that have already grown, but any new leaves will be larger and greener. This means that it takes much longer for the visible signs of iron deficiency to disappear when you add iron in a form that is plant available.

Plants will move mobile elements to the newest leaves, because these have access to brightest light.They can't move the non-mobile elements, which means that chlorotic new leaves are usually caused by non-mobile elements like iron.

cheers Darrel


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## Emilio (5 Mar 2017)

ok thanks , i understand now 
co2 is very high and i have  still been double dosing tropica ferts with no signs of improvement.
any recommendations for Fe to dose also side Mg?

thanks


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## xim (5 Mar 2017)

Ultimately, if Micros dosing is already high and if water hardness is the culprit, I think the best step to take is to mix the tap with RO or rain water to lower the hardness.


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## Victor (6 Mar 2017)

Emilio said:


> ok thanks , i understand now
> co2 is very high and i have  still been double dosing tropica ferts with no signs of improvement.
> any recommendations for Fe to dose also side Mg?
> 
> thanks


Here I dose 0,05 ppm (it's not 0,5 ppm) of Fe and 7 ppm of Mg per week. Note that the amount of iron your plants need is extremely low. Unless you aren't dosing it you won't see any iron deficiency.


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## Ed.Junior (6 Mar 2017)

Try checking your water report. GH is basically the sum of Ca and Mg, without the report it is hard to assume something, but adding MgSO4/Epsom salts will not hurt. Adding 1-2 dGH from Seachem Equilibrium is also possible in case you can't find MgSO4, but you would also be increasing Ca.

Take a step back and consider the whole picture.

1. Lighting is the driver of growth, lots of light, lots of everything. 

2. CO2 can be measured by the pH drop. 1 point pH drop is okay for most people. BPS is just a visual cue to you that things are working, not a measure.
Turning it on before lights is also a common practice.

3. Ferts. I cannot over emphasise this: know what you are dosing. Forget the brand, instructions, etc. They are useful, but what does it mean "5ml of this product in 50l?" As others pointed out, go for the concentrations, ppm, mg/l, etc. You have to provide 2 basic things: Macros (NPK, usually in the form of Nitrates, Phosphates and Potassium) and Micros (Fe, along with the commonly used EDTA or DTPA chelators, plus trace elements, like Zn, Mn, Cu, Mo, etc.).

4. Circulation is sometimes neglected. If water doesnt go around bringing all the good stuff (ferts and co2), then plants will have a problem. Same thing for Biomass, not only it block the water access, but it also creates competition. Light and CO2 competition is something not to be ignored 

5. Cleaniness. People forget to clean their filters (clean it once a month, attention to the bio-media), skip the water changes (bi-weekly at least, on a high tech tank), let too much mulm accumulate on the substrate (vacuum it), hoses completely filled with algae, etc. Keep biological waste down and things will get easier. 

6. Patience. Introducing constant changes will not help. The mechanisms through which plants acquire nutrients, for instance the enzymes, take a while to adjust (read: weeks). Introduce changes, give it time (again, weeks).

One tank can improve significantly in 2 weeks, and grow wonders within 2 months of good care.


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Ed.Junior (6 Mar 2017)

And forget micro toxicity and addressing tiny differences with ferts.

I dose 10ppm NO3, 3ppm PO4, 10ppm K, 0.3ppm Fe-EDTA, 3x per week, and never had any issue with that.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## dw1305 (6 Mar 2017)

Hi all, 





Ed.Junior said:


> GH is basically the sum of Ca and Mg, without the report it is hard to assume something


You don't know the relative contribution of magnesium and calcium, but there is unlikely to be much magnesium in the water because of the <"geology">. 





Emilio said:


> any recommendations for Fe to dose also side Mg?


You could try a chelator designed for hard water, <"FeEDDHA or FeDTPA>" are the normal recommendations.

cheers Darrel


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## xim (6 Mar 2017)

dw1305 said:


> You could try a chelator designed for hard water, <"FeEDDHA or FeDTPA>" are the normal recommendations.



The OP is using Tropica liquid ferts which already use strong chelators (DTPA and HEEDTA). And Fe will be chelated by DTPA because iron has the highest affinity with it than other nutrients.

Fe-EDDHA is stronger than DTPA but the colour is very intense even at low concentrations that it's unsuitable for aquariums. The image below shows the colour of Fe-EDDHA solution at various concentrations. The numbers are in PPM, so tank water will look like the 0.5 vial at the end of the week.




Image from: http://scottspridefarm.com/2015/12/iron-chelate-interference-downside-fe-eddha-fe-hbed/

That's the reason why I said if the Tropica ferts didn't work, I didn't know what to switch to.


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## Emilio (6 Mar 2017)

hello,
does anyone know how i can dose epsom salts,
never done something like this before.
can i add straight to the water column?
if so how much for a 13 litre?

or would mixing a solution be better?
if so how much ml water to how many spoons?

does it need to be done after a water change or can i add now,
straight away?
thanks


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## Emilio (6 Mar 2017)

xim said:


> That is probably the effect of strong light which makes most stem plants look more bushy. It is definitely not the weight because if you uproot or trim them, they will float.





hello,
its not because its bushy
its not due to flow either.
the top part of the stem is bent.

heard this happens due to fe deficiency?


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## Ed.Junior (6 Mar 2017)

Emilio said:


> hello,
> does anyone know how i can dose epsom salts,
> never done something like this before.
> can i add straight to the water column?
> ...


Use RotalaButterfly.com nutrient calculator to help you with the solutions. 
You add the salt directly to the water, but making a solution is something more practical, because you can dose it easier next time. It is up to you.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## xim (6 Mar 2017)

I would add 461.46 mg of Epsom salt per week for your tank size. This is 3.5 PPM of magnesium.
I would mix it with some water and pour into the tank after a water change. The amount of water to mix with is not important as long as it all dissolves.

For the spoon, I only have a small 1/4 teaspoon measuring spoon and it has no use for the current batch of my Epsom salt which is the large grain type, sorry.


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## xim (6 Mar 2017)

Ed.Junior said:


> Use RotalaButterfly.com nutrient calculator to help you with the solutions.
> You add the salt directly to the water, but making a solution is something more practical, because you can dose it easier next time. It is up to you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



The suggested level option of the calculator is confusing. For me, I always use the how much to add to reach the target option because I know the target. But the OP might not.


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## dw1305 (6 Mar 2017)

Hi all,





xim said:


> I would add 461.46 mg of Epsom salt per week for your tank size. This is 3.5 PPM of magnesium.


So we are talking ~1/2 a gram of Epsom Salts, making it difficult to weigh out. 

I'm pretty slap-dash with dosing, so I would:

Add five teaspoonfuls (~5g a teaspoon)  of "Epsom Salts" to 2000g of water (just use a 2 litre "pop" bottle), and then dose that at 4cm3 of the stock solution per week. The advantage of 4cm3 is that is ~near enough a teaspoon of stock solution. 

or three times a week, lick your little finger, dip the tip of it in the "Epsom Salts", wash your finger off in the tank.  
Personally I'd use option 2. but I realise that it is going to be too _ad hoc_ for some people.

cheers Darrel


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## xim (6 Mar 2017)

The number is just copied from the calculator, I didn't bother rounding it out. But yeah, I use a two-decimal gram scale. 

By the way, I think when you're used to using something, you can be quite accurate about its amount even without a measuring accessory, like in cooking.


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## Ed.Junior (6 Mar 2017)

A precision scale is definitely worth its price. 20 tops.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Mar 2017)

For what it's worth, when I add magnesium to my tank I use 1 level teaspoon per 50 ltrs which results in 10ppm in the tank. level teaspoons, and I mean level, fill the spoon and scrape off the excess with another spoon handle on average for me is about 4.8 grams. As near as dammit.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Mar 2017)

Just to add, I change 2x25ltr (fermenting bins) per week on a 100 ltr tank. I add 1 level teaspoon to each first then fill with water. At the end I swill them out with a smaller bucket just to make sure it's all in. I can't see any issues with just dumping it in the tank. The fish may have a peck at it on the way past but I hear it's quite good for their digestive organs anyway.


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## Emilio (6 Mar 2017)

Thanks guys i appreciate *all* the input,
i have added some Mg hopefully thinks start getting better.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (6 Mar 2017)

One step at a time mate. I'm no pro by any stretch of the imagination but all you can do is take the basic principles of flow, co2, fertiliser and good tank husbandry keeping things clean and address them one at a time and give it chance to see what difference it makes. 
With high lighting there's less room for error so things can happen pretty quick. Probably why some appreciate lower lighting and a more relaxed approach. 

 In the same boat as you BTW, although my water is extremely soft on all counts. I found adding magnesium helped a lot. It was something I over looked in the early days.


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## Emilio (9 Mar 2017)

appears to be no improvement even with dry dosing epsom salt.
still can't understand why this is happening, flow is very high so i co2, its being packed with tropica ferts and epsom salt and still no improvement?


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## xim (9 Mar 2017)

Let's recap your problems.

1. Glassy leaves.
2. Thin new stem's tips.

You've doubled fertiser dosing for 10 days, added Epsom Salts for 5 days.

For me, I would not worry about the #2. From my observation on my own stem plants like Rotala green, the stems at the tips will be thinner while size of the leaves are larger when they're growing fast. In contrast, stunted tips will generally have normal size stems and the leaves become smaller and smaller.

For the #1, how about temperature? I mean rapid change may damage them. When you do the water change, have you adjusted the temperature before filling the tank?


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## AverageWhiteBloke (9 Mar 2017)

I don't think 5 days is long enough to see an effect. You would have to probably wait 3 or 4 weeks before you would notice an improvement. Someone with more experience could jump in here but is Magnesium mobile or not?  Maybe the old leaves aren't going to improve and the new growth will be fine. The older leaves maybe best trimmed off as new ones appear to stop them draining energy from the plant.


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## Emilio (10 Mar 2017)

hello, if thats the case il wait a little while longer.
thanks


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## AverageWhiteBloke (10 Mar 2017)

The only thing that happens fast in a planted aquarium is algae  Get some pics up in a few weeks time and see where to go from there. In the mean time any leaves that look beyond hope and as long as there's some other viable leaves left on the plant maybe trim them off.


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## dw1305 (10 Mar 2017)

Hi all,





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> Magnesium mobile or not?


Magnesium is mobile, and you should get pretty quick greening of pale leaves.





Emilio said:


>


Because it was the new leaves that are chlorotic it was likely to be a non-mobile element, which was why iron (Fe) deficiency was the original suggestion.





AverageWhiteBloke said:


> The only thing that happens fast in a planted aquarium is algae


Very true, but it can be useful.

If you add a nutrient, and you get the sudden bloom of green algae, you can be pretty sure that levels of that nutrient was <"restricting growth in your plants">.

cheers Darrel


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## AverageWhiteBloke (10 Mar 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Magnesium is mobile, and you should get pretty quick greening of pale leaves.



Thanks for that, I wasn't sure about Magnesium. 



dw1305 said:


> If you add a nutrient, and you get the sudden bloom of green algae, you can be pretty sure that levels of that nutrient was <"restricting growth in your plants">.



Another I wasn't aware of.


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## Emilio (10 Mar 2017)

hello
 if it possibly Fe
as suggested

Would Something like EasyLife Ferro be a good ?

or should i buy somthing like ADA ECA?

im not a big fan off mixing my own, i  prefer to buy it ready.
can anyone recommend one ?

thanks


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## xim (10 Mar 2017)

Emilio said:


> hello
> if it possibly Fe
> as suggested
> 
> ...



I don't think both will help but you can try of course.

If it's Fe and trace elements, you should see improvement within 2 weeks and sooner than that for Mg and Phosphorus.

The next phrase, IMO, is focus on water hardness. Are you sure the rock you use is inert? Small tank can be easier affected because the water volume is small.

Viktor Lantos used to do two versions of ADA Mini M tank. The first version went very smooth. He used driftwood as the hardscape.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlantos/albums/72157622209187244

But the V2 was a struggle. He, a great aquascaper, had tried quite hard to improve it for one year with no success. Plants got stunted and BBA was always persistent. I suspect it was from the rocks. I'm not sure if he used RO water back then. But he routinely uses it with his tanks. If he used RO, then even RO couldn't save it.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/viktorlantos/albums/72157623605461019


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## Emilio (10 Mar 2017)

hello,
the rock i use is seiryu sone which raises even more hardness.


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## Emilio (28 Mar 2017)

hello,
No luck,
have now decided to tear down the aqaurium,


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## Mortis (28 Mar 2017)

Emilio said:


> hello,
> No luck,
> have now decided to tear down the aqaurium,


Emilio try lowering the CO2 for afew days to see if you have any improvement. It may not always be the case but Ive had a few instances where I was pumping in a LOT of CO2 in a tank to drive growth but it resulted in some unhealthy plants. Try it out for a few days, no harm since your already going to tear down the tank. Reduce to 1 bps or lower since the tank is tiny


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