# Stocking for rimless tanks- how do you keep the fish inside?



## lilirose (13 Aug 2020)

Right, so for the past two years I've been watching aquascapers on social media with lovely rimless tanks, filled as close to the top as possible, with no lids, that contain living fish.

All my tanks are rimless. When I set up my 90l rimless community tank, I was heartbroken by the number of fish who leapt out of it in the first couple of months, and heartbroken again when I had to put ugly clips and an acrylic lid on top so my ember tetras would stop leaping to their deaths. Now, I've had a pair of horrendously expensive wild-type _Betta imbellis _throw themselves out the 1-2mm gap at the edge of the acrylic lid!

I am gutted about the _imbellis..._the worst part is that I've three other rimless tanks in the early stages of setup. They were custom made. I asked for lids when I bought them, and was told "sorry, these tanks are intended to be open."

So what can I put in a rimless tank that isn't going to jump out of it?


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## Melll (13 Aug 2020)

Hi there,

I know that some marine tank owners use a mesh lid to stop jumpers, have you investigated those?   I don`t think there are any fish that definitely will not jump but fish that are torpedo shaped and mainly occupy the uppers levels are more prone to it.


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## Conort2 (13 Aug 2020)

I’ve got the mesh on mine. It certainly helps however I very rarely still get the odd jumper that makes it through. Bare in mind though that these are nano fish and are small enough to make it through the mesh gaps if they aim their jump well. I think the only way to be a 100 percent safe is have a proper cover.

Cheers

Conor


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## lazybones51 (13 Aug 2020)

I keep a dozen Ember Tetras and haven't had any jumpers. I lost a guppy, and the Amano shrimp would occasionally climb out. This is an open top tank that's brimmed.

Are you running CO2? Also what are your water parameters, frequency of water changes etc? Could be a water quality issue maybe?


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## milla (13 Aug 2020)

Lower the water level.  Seriously people brim them for the photo op.  I don't think anyone runs a tank like this all the time.


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## Melll (13 Aug 2020)

milla said:


> I don't think anyone runs a tank like this all the time.




Are you saying that shops such as @Aquarium Gardens lower the water level and only have them filled when the shop is open or videos being made?



milla said:


> Lower the water level




By how much?


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## lilirose (13 Aug 2020)

@Melll  - I have investigated the marine lids. at the time (maybe 8-9 months ago?) I could not find a source that would ship to Ireland. Maybe that has changed, due to the current world situation, a lot of UK retailers refuse to ship here.

@Conort2 - Are you allowed to say where you bought it? I'm uncertain of the rules about stuff like that here.

@lazybones51 - The tank is a 90 liter long (90x30x30cm), low tech as stated before (that is, of course, no CO2), with an extremely well established Hamburg Mattenfilter. Extremely densely planted with slow growers- java fern, several crypts, several anubias, a massive amount of bolbitis, multiple bucephalandra, some moss on the hardscape, and a val which is of course taking over. I use remineralised RO water and do 50% weekly water changes, pH 7.2, TDS running between 75-100, nitrogen parameters are 0/0/5 but often my nitrates are also zero, not due to an uncycled filter but due to the extremely large number of plants. I have not had any fish deaths from anything other than jumping/escaping. Current stock is 12 ember tetras and 12 pygmy cory cats as well as 8 Amanos and immunerable Neocaridina, they have all been in there and happy since the lid was installed nine months ago. The only "problem" is a planaria infestation that I intend to treat when I have a safe place to move my nerite snails.

@milla - the fact that the tank is very shallow (90x30x30cm) means that by lowering the water level enough to prevent any jumping will mean losing a lot of stocking space in the tank...


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## Melll (13 Aug 2020)

@lilirose Have you looked on Amazon, I think Red Sea do some, or have a go at a DIY one.  Egg crate with mesh/fine net attached to it. D-D do some as well.


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## milla (13 Aug 2020)

Melll said:


> Are you saying that shops such as @Aquarium Gardens lower the water level and only have them filled when the shop is open or videos being made?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i have no idea never visitied the place or seen there tanks.   but what do they stock them with?    Maybe use the same species if tried and tested.

 Peersonally i never have the  water level above 1.5" from the top.   And no jumpers in  yaers apart from the odd sucidal cherry shrimp.


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## lilirose (13 Aug 2020)

Melll said:


> @lilirose Have you looked on Amazon, I think Red Sea do some, or have a go at a DIY one.  Egg crate with mesh/fine net attached to it. D-D do some as well.



My Betta imbellis squeezed out of a 1mm gap, which egg crate certainly has...I really, really wanted to have those fish and had only sourced them two months ago, "gutted" doesn't even really cover it. I suppose not every fish is prone to behaving like that, but as I set the tank up for imbellis and am now realising that it's not an appropriate home for them...I guess I'm looking for other suggestions, that can live with what's already in there?


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## milla (13 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> @milla - the fact that the tank is very shallow (90x30x30cm) means that by lowering the water level enough to prevent any jumping will mean losing a lot of stocking space in the tank...



Ok then you are probably best sticking with the lid or buying / diying a mesh cover or hood of some sort.    I honestly cant think of any fish that wouldn't swim over the edge to see whats in the next pond.


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## Melll (13 Aug 2020)

milla said:


> never visitied the place



You should go, it is an awesome place and everyone is so helpful and lovely 😃 The range of stock of plants, hardscape, etc is well worth the trip. 👍



lilirose said:


> "gutted" doesn't even really cover it



I can imagine


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## Conort2 (13 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> Are you allowed to say where you bought it? I'm uncertain of the rules about stuff like that here.


Think I may have got it from charterhouse aquatics. Marine aquariums often use them.

Cheers

Conor


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## alto (14 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> Now, I've had a pair of horrendously expensive wild-type _Betta imbellis _throw themselves out the 1-2mm gap at the edge of the acrylic lid!


Very sad to read this
But
Whoever sold you the wild Betta Sp should’ve warned you that ALL gaps must be covered with cling film
They are notorious for somehow leaping out of tanks through impossibly tiny gaps, and they can do so even after being settled in the tank for several months

There are also (considerable) tank bred Betta imbellis on the market, these seem much less inclined to jump and can lead to confusion over safe keeping of (wild) Betta species



lilirose said:


> I suppose not every fish is prone to behaving like that, but as I set the tank up for imbellis and am now realising that it's not an appropriate home for them...I guess I'm looking for other suggestions, that can live with what's already in there?


What are the tank dimensions and decor?
Tankmates?

ETA just saw you did answer this above
FWIW I don’t keep tetras with most Bettas, and would especially hesitate with wild Betta sp

(Irrelevant anecdote - I have kept Betta imbellis in an ADA 60P, some carpet areas but mostly taller stems and rock (crevices and overhangs) and wood (again lots of hidden areas)
Tap water is very soft, pH 6-6.4, KH 0-1, GH 0-2 
Tankmates were a few chocolate gourami species and some snails
B imbellis was from Franks Bettas - he is one of the most reputable and transparent suppliers of wild Betta species, you can buy a particular fish directly and have it transhipped - not cheap but fish quality is untouchable)


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## Onoma1 (14 Aug 2020)

I used thick ( 10mm) perspex  bought of ebay (second hand) with clear acrylic clips ( this type https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124183662774). The perspex  did bend (slightly) after a while however when the occurred I would just turn it over. This reduced evaporation and meant that fish couldn't jump out.

More recently I have gone for emersed plants and floating plants. My view is that this gives the fish more security and reduces  jumping.


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## rebel (14 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> So what can I put in a rimless tank that isn't going to jump out of it?


My approach is to avoid obvious jumpers. You can add some floating plants also. Avoid children jumping next to the tank. 

My endlers used to jump out all the time. Over the 3 years, natural selection has caused that to stop!!!

I fill to the rim and ask questions later.


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## rebel (14 Aug 2020)

alto said:


> wild Betta Sp


OMG these guys are pros. If you read about em you will know why..... 
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/betta-splendens/


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## lilirose (14 Aug 2020)

Thanks for the advice on the bettas- this pair was indeed tank-raised, and the parents came from Frank's Bettas (they were the next generation on from Frank's). I said "wild-type" to indicate more thoroughly that these were not domestic Splendens, who do best housed alone...I didn't mean to imply that they were wild-*caught*. I have 30+ years of experience with domestic Betta splendens.

@alto , I also normally would not keep tetras with bettas due to tetras' tendency to fin-nip (oddly, I have always heard that bettas and gouramis together is a recipe for disaster, so have never tried it!). I made the decision to take a chance with the tetras as imbellis don't have long fins. I never saw my ember tetras and my bettas interact at all- they totally ignored each other. The tetras were not harassing the bettas nor vice-versa. The tank itself is jammed with plants, wood, and rocks- there are tons of hiding places and line-of-sight breaks. I really didn't go into this as a clueless noob.  But I was not warned to seal the tank top by anyone I spoke to about them.

@rebel - It'd be lovely if you could suggest a few species (preferably not live-bearers) that aren't obvious jumpers. In the past I kept 20 liter betta tanks and a much larger tank with angelfish and tetras- obviously angelfish aren't a possibility with nano tanks, and I'm having bad luck with tetras and (obviously) bettas. I'm looking to stock my other rimless tanks as well, that don't even have the acrylic lids yet, and I'd much prefer not to add them if possible. I have 40+ years of experience with aquariums, and am using RO water and do lots of water changes, so am not afraid of "difficult" species as long as they aren't likely to jump out of the tank, as this distresses both me and my kids.


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## Melll (14 Aug 2020)

How about CPDs and Rosy Loaches together, none of mine jumped and they are gorgeous together.


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## zozo (14 Aug 2020)

rebel said:


> My approach is to avoid obvious jumpers.



This one in the first place... 💪💪 Research a serious database something like SeriouslyFisch.com.
Then if the description and keeping advice say you need a tight lid because they will/can jump.
Then simply it's a definitively no go for an open-top tank... Then how beautiful they may be, rather choose another fish sp.

Bottom line all fish can jump and it can have a number of causes, some more or less obvious... Observe your fish closely and be cautious when you see signs of flashing, this means it has an itch and could have skin parasites or other illness.  

Other things to take into account is character compatibility and the region they like to inhabit. Bottom, Mid and Top region. Some fish have boisterous character and like to chase each other and others. The one chased will try to flee if this happens near the surface, or from the bottom up, a jump is sometimes inevitable and the only way out of the situation. It's a natural behaviour and the fish doesn't realize the tank's footprint and that goes 5 feet down to the floor instead of back into the water.

Fish can be conditioned like all other animals with food... And they are always hungry and also do food competition. Then if you mainly feed them floating food then they'll be conditioned to constantly concentrate on the surface for food. And race towards it the moment it's presented. I've seen boisterous fish jump in a food competition with others. If you have fish like that condition them to forage from the bottom with sinking pellets.

Tank size vs fish size... Fish in panic or excitement can develop lighting fast speeds in an extremely short distance.  If it encounters a vertical glass panel at full speed with 3 flaps of the tail fin, then it has only one way to go and that's up and potentially over and out.

For me personally, I discard the inch per x volume rule when it comes to sizing fish for my tanks. Any fish that can not swim 20x its body length from right to left and can not swim 10x its body length from front to back. Is simply too large and completely out of perspective and more like living in a jail cell. Give a fish space and time to develop some speed and hit the breaks again before it bumps into a glass panel.  

Mating behaviour can trigger jumping, males competing for females... Something that can not always be determined but having too many males vs females in a school can result in more jumpers than in populations with more females than males.

All little things to take into account, but still doesn't prevent a fish occasionally accidentally from leaping out.


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## lilirose (14 Aug 2020)

Melll said:


> How about CPDs and Rosy Loaches together, none of mine jumped and they are gorgeous together.



Great suggestion! I've wanted CPDs for quite a while, I'd been concerned that they are as likely to jump as "true" danio species....

@zozo , I agree with everything you have said. I love SeriouslyFish and use it a lot. I guess that right now I'm at a loss, and looking for very specific suggestions. For example, I was thinking of a pair of Rams for my 72l, someone on another forum smacked my hands for considering it because the footprint of the tank is only 60x30cm. It seems like every time I think of something I like, someone gives me a reason why it's a terrible idea. I need good ideas!


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## Melll (14 Aug 2020)

My CPDs rarely went near the water surface, pairing them with the Rosy Loaches seemed to work well.  I had a lot of cover, not floating plants but well planted which by the sound of your tank, yours is well planted.


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## zozo (14 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> It seems like every time I think of something I like, someone gives me a reason why it's a terrible idea. I need good ideas!



Yeah!? That's a bit of a grey area, isn't it... With a lot of advice given in the literature and or sponsored websites it's given based on a commercial source. My personal take on it this also goes for seriously fish when it comes to advising on fish and minimal tank sizes. It's a don't bite the hand that feeds you concept.

Then what is a good idea? An idea you like to hear? For many people it is...

For the rest is a strictly personal take based upon an emotional and or philosophical aspect...

Me personally I never would put a pair of rams in a 60x30 footprint. Simply because i wouldn't like them seeing in such a cramped up perspective. That actually makes me unhappy with the idea. If the fish would be happy or not is beyond my grasp...

In this quasi a tad morbid hobby, we have to take our own responsibility for our actions in what is acceptable or not within the generally accepted morals.

It can also depend on the repliers nationality...  For example in Germany, there is an official law in how large a tank should be in respect to the fish in it. And i once heard a well know German aquascaper in an interview. He was asked the question of "what is an ideal fish for a Nano Aquarium? He said I can't say, referring to this law I'm reluctant to answer the question, i could be held accountable if i'm wrong. If the same question is asked in my country the answer might be anything that fits!? "Who gives a flying figure?" We still put goldfishes in small bowls don't we?.. 💪


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## lilirose (14 Aug 2020)

I've just posted shots of the tank we're discussing over here. The two others are still in the setup phase, the 72l isn't even planted yet...

@zozo , I am actually a huge fan of the German animal welfare laws (though I know they'd frown on my single 20l betta tank)... it's pretty important to me to not stock something that will be unhappy in the space and always wish to keep that in mind. My fish are not simply ornamental, they are living beings and pets. Still, I'm hoping to find a couple of centrepiece fish for the 90l. I might try Bettas again in the 72l as I can lower the water level a good bit, though my original plan was sparkling gouramis and a lid.


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## lilirose (15 Aug 2020)

I am wondering if I'm not getting specific responses because my tanks are so small?

I'm wondering if I could put an Opaline Gourami in the 90 liter (again, 90x30x30, densely planted) with the acrylic lid? Or is it likely to try to escape through the tiny gaps at the edges, like the imbellis did? SeriouslyFish says the footprint is fine...


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## Driftless (15 Aug 2020)

I have not had a problem with jumpers although I am thinking of adding hatchet fish to the next tank, which will be lidless, and they have a reputation as being jumpers.


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## zozo (15 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> original plan was sparkling gouramis



I've had a few dozens of them over the years and they are really lovely fish. I didn't experience them being jumpers. even had them reproduce spontaneously in one of my tanks. I love their croaking sound you can hear when the room is silent. Sounds a bit like tiny Magpie birds in your living room.

All though I experienced them not to live very long. The ones that lived the longest were the ones born in my tank. Maybe a year or 2, all I got as an adult were gone before that. It's keeping restocking them if you like them for the long term keeping. It's about impossible to determine at what age you buy them. In my case, I could only get them wild caught.

But never the less they are gorgeous little fish with interesting behaviour to observe.


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## lilirose (15 Aug 2020)

Driftless said:


> I have not had a problem with jumpers although I am thinking of adding hatchet fish to the next tank, which will be lidless, and they have a reputation as being jumpers.



Could you be specific about what you've kept that hasn't jumped out of a rimless tank? When I asked on another forum, everyone basically said "lol, just add a lid, there is literally nothing that won't jump". I don't frequent that forum anymore.



zozo said:


> But never the less they are gorgeous little fish with interesting behaviour to observe.



(Talking of sparkling gouramis) I agree- I actually had five of them in the 90l when it was first set up, but lost them all within six months. I assumed it was because the tank was pretty sparsely planted back in those days and/or that they were weak stock. Several of them jumped, which is why I added the lid to that tank, but with the 72l I can just keep the water level lower. Or maybe I will try them again in the 90l, which is the opposite of "sparse" nowadays!


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## Driftless (16 Aug 2020)

lilirose said:


> Could you be specific about what you've kept that hasn't jumped out of a rimless tank? When I asked on another forum, everyone basically said "lol, just add a lid, there is literally nothing that won't jump". I don't frequent that forum anymore.



Discus, Angels, GBRs, Gold Rams, Cardinal, Neon, Ember, Neon Green and Gold Tetras, Endlers, Pearl and Neon Blue Gourami, etc.  Not including the Corys and other catfish but did have a large Nerite snail that did crawl completely out of his tank a couple of times down to the floor.


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## lilirose (16 Aug 2020)

Driftless said:


> Discus, Angels, GBRs, Gold Rams, Cardinal, Neon, Ember, Neon Green and Gold Tetras, Endlers, Pearl and Neon Blue Gourami, etc.  Not including the Corys and other catfish but did have a large Nerite snail that did crawl completely out of his tank a couple of times down to the floor.



Thank you! I lost a few ember tetras to jumping before adding a lid to the 90l, but I want to keep the others lidless. Obviously I can't keep anything large (and I've given up on GBRs, my tanks just aren't big enough) but other tetras and dwarf gouramis are fish that I enjoy but also worry about finding on the floor.

And today I had a nerite try to jump ship and realised there's a place in the lid where the gap is a lot bigger than I thought...oddly I'm having trouble not taking it personally when things don't stay in the tank, my parameters are perfect, I'm using remineralised RO, there is no reason for things to want to look for "better homes" (though TBH the nerite is the only one of his species so he's probably just looking for a mate)...


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## Driftless (16 Aug 2020)

I have about 20 Embers in a lidless UNS 60u that is topped off to the rim during water changes and I have not lost a single Ember.  The tank is heavily planted and the fish retreat into the vegetation when alarmed.


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## Fiske (2 Sep 2020)

I can join the club on CPDs being unlikely to jump. Have had a number for a couple of years, only one jumper. 
Don't get lampeyes . Lovely fish, very airborne. Same for peacock gudgeons  
Sparkling gouramis are loverly! Do they jump? I dunno, keeping a lid on mine.

But any fish can and will jump if it's startled, or 'excited', or if it's not happy with conditions. Surface dwellers are probably more prone as an escape strategy.


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## Barbara Turner (3 Sep 2020)

I bought 2 sheets of glass that sit on top of the tank.. One two big and heavy. 

I got sick of losing fish and shrimps (Rainbows and cherries), whenever ran into the room the fish jumped out the far corner) I rescued a few.
I tried dropping the water level from about 10mm  to 50mm and this helped a little but got tired of picking up dried out fish from the carpet.
I imagine you could get away with 2 - 100mm strips over either end. possibly even submerged.


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## Driftless (3 Sep 2020)

I know that UNS makes glass lids for some of their tanks.  You can always purchase clips and have a glass cutter cut a piece of glass to fit your tank as well. You can see the UNS lids at the bottom of this page.  https://ultumnaturesystems.com/rimless-glass-tanks/


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## lilirose (3 Sep 2020)

Driftless said:


> I know that UNS makes glass lids for some of their tanks.  You can always purchase clips and have a glass cutter cut a piece of glass to fit your tank as well. You can see the UNS lids at the bottom of this page.  https://ultumnaturesystems.com/rimless-glass-tanks/



The UNS lids would fit (or I could have copies made- one of my aquariums is a direct copy of an UNS 90L)...but that 90L has an acrylic lid and my Betta imbellis both jumped out of a gap in the acrylic of less than 5mm. The UNS glass lids have gaps much, much bigger than that- I fail to see how they are much better (for preventing jumping in species known as escape artists) than no lid at all...


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## Driftless (4 Sep 2020)

A Betta can jump through an opening of .19inches?  Wow.  I re-read your first post and you said the Bettas jump openings of 1 -2 mm, how big are these fish?

Edit and Post-Script:  I would get the clips and have the glass cut so that there are no gaps.  I would love to see the tank and fish.


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## rebel (4 Sep 2020)

Driftless said:


> Bettas jump openings of 1 -2 mm


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## lilirose (4 Sep 2020)

Driftless said:


> A Betta can jump through an opening of .19inches?  Wow.  I re-read your first post and you said the Bettas jump openings of 1 -2 mm, how big are these fish?
> 
> Edit and Post-Script:  I would get the clips and have the glass cut so that there are no gaps.  I would love to see the tank and fish.



Actually I found a spot where the gap is a little bigger- about 3 or 4mm. It's just wide enough for the tip of my index finger, but I can't fit my whole finger through (I'm a woman and have small hands).

There are pictures of the tank that the Betta imbellis escaped right here. The Imbellis have pretty much the same body size as a standard Betta splendens, without the flowing fins. I won't be trying any Betta species in that tank again- it's now home to some Dwarf Gouramis and has cling film over the spot where the gap is about 4mm.

However I have three other rimless tanks that I'm in the process of setting up. I don't particularly want to put lids on those. One is 10cm taller than the others and will probably have a lowered water level and emersed plants- a wild Betta could live happily in there I think, and not be able to escape.


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2020)

Hi all, 





lilirose said:


> One is 10cm taller than the others and will probably have a lowered water level and emersed plants- a wild Betta could live happily in there I think, and not be able to escape.


That is my suggestion, certain fish <"just aren't safe in a tank without a lid"> unless you can lower the water level, even then in some cases (surface plants, lowered water level and lid) <"you can still lose them">.

cheers Darrel


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## MirandaB (4 Sep 2020)

Bearing in mind the fish in this video is not a wild Betta it shows the instinct is still there.


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## lilirose (4 Sep 2020)

Yes, I know that video- I share it with everyone I see who has a Betta splendens in a lidless tank. They usually say something like "mine's too mellow for jumping" or "they only want to jump if the water quality is bad", and the video above is my response.

However, I have a lid on the tank from which the Imbellis jumped, and it's a fairly tight one (obviously not tight enough!). With my Splendens tanks, I use lids and also keep the water level lowered. And I will not be keeping any kind of Betta species in future in the tank from which my Imbellis leapt to their deaths.


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## Melll (4 Sep 2020)

I love watching that video


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