# Green Hair Algae or?



## bjorn (20 Apr 2011)

I've managed to sort out my previous algae problems which seemed to be either down to fluctuating CO2 or low nutrients. I now dose with EI and everything is growing very well. 

However I have a lingering problem with only one type of Algae now, which I'm guessing is Green Hair Algae, or so I think. I've attached a image but it's quite hard to see how it really looks.

It's light green, very long (5-10cm and still growing) single, hair fine strands of algae. It's mainly attached to some stones in the foreground and not really spread elsewhere just yet. I've tried to remove it manually but it's either growing back very quickly or I'm not actually dislodging it properly.

I'm wondering why I have this algae and best way of getting rid of it?


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## wearsbunnyslippers (20 Apr 2011)

could be spirogyra..

James' algae guide


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## mlgt (20 Apr 2011)

I simply pick it out. I use an unused airline toothbrush. Just twist it like spaghetti to remove it. I always seem to have some that I cannot remove so its a never ending battle.


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## LondonDragon (20 Apr 2011)

Spot dosing the source after you removed the long strands with EC/Excel will also kill it.


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## bjorn (20 Apr 2011)

thanks will try that!


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## ceg4048 (21 Apr 2011)

Hi,
    All filamentous algae is caused by poor CO2. This therefore indicates that CO2/flow/distribution for the given lighting level is still not optimized.

Cheers,


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## bigmatt (21 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> All filamentous algae is caused by poor CO2. This therefore indicates that CO2/flow/distribution for the given lighting level is still not optimized.
> 
> Cheers,



I've looked at algae a fair bit (what, with being rubbish at running my tanks and everything!) and i never realised that - really useful info!
Cheers!
Matt


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## bjorn (24 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> All filamentous algae is caused by poor CO2. This therefore indicates that CO2/flow/distribution for the given lighting level is still not optimized.
> 
> Cheers,



It looks very much like Spirogyra and now spread everywhere, it keeps coming back more each time I clean it off. This stuff definitly started to be a problem since I started with EI dosing. No other algae problems now.

I honestly doubt it can be a flow problem, I've got a total flow nearly 3000l/hour on a 170l tank. Any more and the fish will just swirl around.

I noticed on James page he mentions this about Spirogyra:



> "Often appears a couple of weeks after a disturbance that causes a spike in ammonia. This can be anything from a disturbance of the substrate to a dead fish gone unnoticed. Likes high light levels and high nutrient levels."



I don't know how to get rid of it though, it mentions a 3-day blackout and daily 50% water changes. On a 170l tank with half/half RO water.. that's a lot of RO I will need. Just not a workable solution. Any other ideas? Would a blackout on it's own work?


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## ceg4048 (24 Apr 2011)

The image you show in the original post appears to be ordinary hair algae, not spirogyra, which typically is organized in spirals, hence the name. The long thin spider web looking algae is hair. In either case you can try overdosing liquid carbon or simply increasing the injection rate. Reducing light intensity will help slow the growth.



			
				bjorn said:
			
		

> This stuff definitly started to be a problem since I started with EI dosing.


 So you dose EI and the plants grew faster, thereby outstripping the CO2 supply. If you do not make an adjustment to your injection rate this is the sort of thing that happens. This algae is CO2 related, not nutrient related.



			
				bjorn said:
			
		

> No other algae problems now.


Yes, more accurately, there are no nutrient deficiency related algae. That's what dosing EI does for you. But EI dosing cannot save you from CO2 related algae. The two are not directly related. People really need to understand this point. If you study James Guide you'll see that there are two groups of algae - 
1. Strictly CO2 related.
2. Strictly Nutrient related.
3. Both CO2 AND Nutrient related.

Understanding the nuances of each group enables you to troubleshoot effectively and to make the right decisions. If you have a CO2 deficiency related algae then the path is clear. Add more CO2. It's that simple.



			
				bjorn said:
			
		

> I don't know how to get rid of it though, it mentions a 3-day blackout and daily 50% water changes. On a 170l tank with half/half RO water.. that's a lot of RO I will need. Just not a workable solution. Any other ideas? Would a blackout on it's own work?


If it is determined that this is indeed spirogyra, then just do the water changes using 100% tap. Whats the big deal?

Cheers,


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## bjorn (25 Apr 2011)

> The image you show in the original post appears to be ordinary hair algae, not spirogyra, which typically is organized in spirals, hence the name. The long thin spider web looking algae is hair. In either case you can try overdosing liquid carbon or simply increasing the injection rate. Reducing light intensity will help slow the growth.



I've tried overdosing with Excel, which worked great when I had problems with other Algea (before I started with EI). But Excel does not seem to effect this one at all. What I have now have grown very fast, is clear green, and very very long fine strands, some are now up to 15-20cm long. They are growing in fast flow areas on stones mainly, which is where the CO2 distrobution should be at it's best. Don't know about spirals though, the sort of tangle together at times now as they are very long.




> So you dose EI and the plants grew faster, thereby outstripping the CO2 supply. If you do not make an adjustment to your injection rate this is the sort of thing that happens. This algae is CO2 related, not nutrient related.



I would like to inject more Co2, but if I increase it any more my fish are at the surface gasping for air, or like the Oto's lying at the bottom on their side just breathing hard. The plants are growing very fast and perling like mad.




> If it is determined that this is indeed spirogyra, then just do the water changes using 100% tap. Whats the big deal?



I rather not use RO water, but I'm trying to grow a lot of Bolbitis Ferns, and I understand that they require soft water.. Mine is very hard if I don't do half RO and half normal (GH16, KH9+).


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## ceg4048 (25 Apr 2011)

Hi,
    If you have high flow and adding more CO2 affects the fish then this tells you that your distribution and/or injection methods are suspect. As always, lighting is a prime factor. 

When you have strong algal blooms you need to take action and forget about plant preference for hard or soft water, most of which is overated anyway.

Cheers,


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## bjorn (25 Apr 2011)

Going to try the 3-day blackout and water change without RO. Will see how it goes with the bolbitis. I do think the stuff I have looks like spirogyra that I found images of.


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## dw1305 (26 Apr 2011)

Hi all,


> The image you show in the original post appears to be ordinary hair algae, not spirogyra, which typically is organized in spirals, hence the name.


 I think it might be _Spirogyra_. _Spirogyra_ is a really easy plant to identify, the long threads have a spiralled chloroplast, you can actually see this with x10 magnification, or if you don't have access to a hand lens or low power microscope, you can just scan a strand on a cheap flat-bed computer scanner (at 1200dpi).

The other easy test is that _Spirogyra_ is "slippery", if you let it slips through your fingers it feels like wet spaghetti. I have plenty of it in the pond and rain-water buckets, but not in the tanks.

Have a look here: <http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/index.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/pond/algae.html>

cheers Darrel


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## bjorn (28 Apr 2011)

dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> 
> > The image you show in the original post appears to be ordinary hair algae, not spirogyra, which typically is organized in spirals, hence the name.
> ...



Thanks! I did try your suggestions but my Scanner wasn't up to it. From everything else it sounds like Spirogyra, specailly since overdoing Excel did absolutly no difference.

However I just finished a 3-day blackout + waterchanges and it's seems to be entirly gone. My crypts didn't like the waterchanges without RO water though.. seems like it's got a bit of crypt melt going on.


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## ceg4048 (28 Apr 2011)

Hi,
   Crypt melt is all about poor CO2 and has nothing to do with RO.

Cheers,


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## bjorn (28 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Crypt melt is all about poor CO2 and has nothing to do with RO.
> 
> Cheers,



Right, CO2 have been off for 3 days. But you mean the flucuation in CO2 is the problem rather than RO water?


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## ceg4048 (28 Apr 2011)

Well, OK, yes. Crypts like stability and they like CO2. When these fail then they respond poorly to environmental changes. Do you see what I mean about making connections and drawing conclusions based on unrelated events?

Here's an interesting project you might want to try. After you get your CO2 strong and stable try revising the water changes from your RO/Tap mix to 100% tap once again. See how the crypts respond. You'll find that when crypts are feeding really well with CO2 they become impervious to change. They can take a licking and keep on ticking.
I read in lots of places where folks go on and on about how crypts melt when the water parameter changes or even if the crypt is uprooted and moved to another location in the tank. This is all hogwash because the crypts are telling you when they melt after these actions that they really weren't happy to begin with. This is a really good indicator plant for strong stable CO2. They tell you when you're CO2 technique is marginal.

I think you were worried about Bolbitis though weren't you? How did those do without RO?

Cheers,


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## bjorn (29 Apr 2011)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Well, OK, yes. Crypts like stability and they like CO2. When these fail then they respond poorly to environmental changes. Do you see what I mean about making connections and drawing conclusions based on unrelated events?
> 
> Here's an interesting project you might want to try. After you get your CO2 strong and stable try revising the water changes from your RO/Tap mix to 100% tap once again. See how the crypts respond. You'll find that when crypts are feeding really well with CO2 they become impervious to change. They can take a licking and keep on ticking.
> I read in lots of places where folks go on and on about how crypts melt when the water parameter changes or even if the crypt is uprooted and moved to another location in the tank. This is all hogwash because the crypts are telling you when they melt after these actions that they really weren't happy to begin with. This is a really good indicator plant for strong stable CO2. They tell you when you're CO2 technique is marginal.
> ...



I think you are right about the crypts as I noticed they suffered the most when I was messing around with getting my CO2 right and sorting out the flow. They seem to respond very quickly to CO2 changes. So yes, it's probably because of the CO2 and not RO.

Not sure about the bolbitis yet, to early to say but I'm sure they gone a bit black around the edges on the leafs but that could be from the 3day blackout. I do have very hard water here though, really hard so wouldn't be suprised if most plants have issues with it to some degree.

I'm slowly learning and experimenting, but I have a feeling you might have been right from the start. My main problems have always been CO2, mainly fluctuating levels rather than not enough. It seems to be the biggest factor for both growth and algae.


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## ceg4048 (29 Apr 2011)

Yes, CO2 is a very difficult concept to grasp because it's effects are wide ranging and powerful. The fact that it is strongly dependent on flow energy, dissolution and distribution methods makes it even more arcane than many are willing to come to grips with. The fact that it's invisible causes people to dismiss it's importance almost outright.

Again, any structural flaw, deterioration or discoloration is a CO2 issue. Black edges mean CO2 starvation. Hard water is rarely, if ever a problem. I've grown over a hundred species in water harder than Lake Tanganyika and as long as CO2 is excellent, I don't usually have any problems.

Cheers,


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## bjorn (1 May 2011)

Well I spoke to soon. There is still some left or some that's grown back. I'm pretty sure it's spirogyra. The 3 day blackout did help, but not completely eradicated it.


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## ceg4048 (1 May 2011)

Hi mate,
            Removal by hand (trimming and harassment) is a necessity. You might have to repeat the blackout as well.

Cheers,


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