# German blue Ram issues



## Sk3lly (2 Jun 2015)

Hello guys i recently lost my male GBR after a long battle with an unknown illness. 

2 weeks later and im beginning to see the same sort of symptoms in my female Ram.

She spends a lot of her time resting on the substrate and very rarely is she seen swimming about. She will swim up to investigate food but it looks like a struggle. Also shes not so keen on eating. Theres no visible marks on her, just seems very lethargic.

My tank is a 60p. Kept at about 24-25celsius

Ammonia 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate 20 according to the liquid test kits. Im aware these are not best for accuracy but its all i got.

Water change is 50% weekly with temperature matched water.

Tank is heavily planted with co2. So i have the kind of pH swing daily you'd normally see. 

Fish are fed tuesdays, thursdays, saturdays and sundays.

All other fish are fine.

If anyone can shed some light id be very grateful. This fish was picked by my girlfriend and although she pretends not to be interested in the fish, i think she'd be gutted if this fish dies.

Thanks  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alto (3 Jun 2015)

How long have you had these rams? were they juveniles when purchased? any idea on the history of the fish/origins?

The market is flooded with poor quality rams, at one time "german" rams implied origin/breeding (they stood out in their obvious quality) but now I see it applied to almost any ram being sold in the shops; in addition to the malformed "balloon" sorts, there are obviously "hormoned" fish being sold as well ...  most of these fish will only last a few to several months in your tank.

If you can find a shop that is selling juvenile locally bred rams, this is often your best investment.

There is also some suggestion that these fish may be an "annual" species so longevity may not be observed in wild fishes either ... I've had the odd individual make it 3 years, but 1-2 years seems more common (my oldest female began to show apparent signs of age at ~3 1/2, dying a couple months later).

The symptoms you're seeing suggest an advanced stage of "illness" rather than beginning stages ... I'd just "treat" with great quality water (frequent water changes, eg, 25% daily for a couple weeks to see how effective this is), offer live & frozen foods daily (brine shrimp are easier on digestion than bloodworms, look for "enriched" or "bio-encapsulated" or "gut-loaded" marketing on the frozen packages, also sterilization information) -  you might feed, then water change ~ 60min later.


----------



## Sk3lly (3 Jun 2015)

alto said:


> How long have you had these rams? were they juveniles when purchased? any idea on the history of the fish/origins?
> 
> The market is flooded with poor quality rams, at one time "german" rams implied origin/breeding (they stood out in their obvious quality) but now I see it applied to almost any ram being sold in the shops; in addition to the malformed "balloon" sorts, there are obviously "hormoned" fish being sold as well ...  most of these fish will only last a few to several months in your tank.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply....

The fish was purchased probably about a year ago now. Maybe a little under an inch in length. 

Ive heard a lot about the poor overall quality of this fish tbh, so i dont doubt that.

I do feed a good mix of live and frozen as well as new life spectrum thera+a, which contains garlic. 

I suppose i can up the frequency of live brine shrimp pretty easily. Also do more water changes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr. Teapot (3 Jun 2015)

I have very limited experience keeping Rams but from my research they do much better in soft, warm water. 26C+ as a minimum and much better to keep them at 28C+. At lower temperatures they tend to be much more susceptible to diseases. The higher temperatures will make it tricky to keep your plants happy and when I raised the temperature slowly over a couple of weeks before the two Rams were introduced, I had major loss of a couple of plant species. The ability to dissolve both carbon dioxide and oxygen diminish significantly when you raise temperature and this needs to be compensated for.


----------



## alto (3 Jun 2015)

How is her physical appearance? - wasted looking (as expected) as she's not eating? or still fairly round bodied? bright colors or dim? fast or slowed respiration?

If you feel you need to try medications (all of which will be stressful especially given that she's already not feeling well), I'd go with a Metronidazole bath (you can begin at 2.5mg/litre, observe for 24 h, if she handles this well, water change & re-dose at 5 mg/litre, again wait 24 - 48 h, then water change & re-dose at 5mg/litre  - water changes can be 25%, but 50% is better IF she handles them well. Note the re-dose is for the entire tank volume not just the change water, metronidazole "degrades" under tank conditions).

If you can track some down, Levamisole hydrochloride would be my medication of choice (broader range of efficacy than metronidazole) BUT it can also be more stressful, especially when fish are already feeling poorly.

If she begins to perk up with medication, then move to a medicated food if/when she begins eating - but don't do this too quickly as the taste of the medication will often decrease food response.
If she responds to just the water changes etc, again, you might try a medicated food once she's reasonably established in eating again (unfortunately you need to offer only medicated foods as a mixture will usually end in the fish eating only the un-altered foods).

Depending on other tank inhabitants, you can shut down the filters, squirt food directly in her area, then restart the filters after some minutes.

Of course either medication may adversely affect plants (especially the levamisol) so treatments are often done in bare tanks ... but this will also increase stress to your fish: isolation to a hospital tank can reduce stress from other fish (depending on tankmates), but then many small cichlids prefer "dither" fish in the environment ...

While I agree that rams often seem to do better at 26 - 28C (range for these fish is given as 22C - 30C), I'd hesitate to increase temperatures with an obviously ill fish, anything bacterial & the temperature increase will benefit the bacteria far over the fish (higher temp will accelerate metabolism of both) ... parasitic infections generally respond well to temperature increases.
I'd suspect that this fish may have primary & secondary infections at this stage (if she's not looking "wasted", I'd definitely suspect strong bacterial component).


----------



## Sk3lly (3 Jun 2015)

Thanks for your responses again guys. 

Although i knew Rams prefer warmer temps, its been a balancing act with other livestock/plants. The other fish are mainly tetras. Cardinals and embers. Few otos in there too. 

I am aware if the o2 problem in warmer water. This is my main concern as i tend to run quite heavy on co2. This is because my flow is not the best in this tank due to the layout. I might add the fish are never up at the surface gasping. 

As for the female ram, she still seems interested in food. She will swim up to the surface to investigate. Sometimes she will eat and other times not. She will always sink straight back to substrate level though. She just generally doesnt seem happy. Colouration is still pretty good. I will try snap a photo later after work.

Thanks for the advice on the meds. I dont particularly want to med but i will strongly consider setting up some sort of hospital tank. Would a large bucket and mini internal filter suffice?? Obviously a heater as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mark D (3 Jun 2015)

Sk3lly said:


> . I dont particularly want to med but i will strongly consider setting up some sort of hospital tank. Would a large bucket and mini internal filter suffice?? Obviously a heater as well



That was the setup I used as a hospital tank, I also angled the filter for extra surface agitation


----------



## alto (3 Jun 2015)

First requirement for a hospital tank is to minimize stress for a given fish - you'll be increasing stress through isolation & medications & new environment factors -  in fish, the correlation between "stress=depressed immune system" is very strong, so set up a hospital tank that is hospitable for the given fish species (some fish are much more susceptible to isolation stress than others).

Commercially, bare tanks are used as it simplifies everything, from observation to medication interactions ... & when treating a population rather than a single individual, it's completely logical.
When treating a single, loved individual, try for a hospital tank that reflects the living environment (note a dark blue background was the least stressful in some long ago study that I've long lost the link to - properly done in a research setting, so possibly still available online somewhere).

Water changes should be easily done with careful matching of water parametres (check pH, temp, GH, KH etc if these vary in your area - for this, I find good quality test strips very convenient), I also run a Seachem ammonia alert as many medications will impact the N-cycle bacteria ... note that a single small fish in 10 gal of water with 50% daily water changes is unlikely to create an ammonia spike, just be sure to remove uneaten food with each water change (feed, then water change - if you want to feed more than once a day, it gets complicated ... depending on the medications used etc).

This site from University of Florida offers some fish health & management Fact Sheets, the page I've linked contains a list at the bottom - there is also a Fact Sheet on treating fish in hospital situations, covering the basics of water changes & how to medicate etc (sorry couldn't find that one quickly).
The Skeptical Aquarist  has some very good pages & links on Health as well (& just about everything fish care related).

As your ram still has a food response, this is positive, I'd treat for internal parasites rather than bacteria as the primary infection BUT realize that once gut parasites have led to the degree of ill heath you're observing, damage is likely permanent & even if she improves, she is likely to remain fragile, so try to keep her in a minimal stress environment & closely monitor her behavior/food response etc.

If you're not going to medicate & your tank environment is suitable (what other fish are in the tank?), I'd leave her in the main tank.


----------



## Sk3lly (3 Jun 2015)

Thank you alto for the very lengthy response. When i get time i will check out those links.

Other fish in the tank are cardinal tetras, ember tetras, otos and amano shrimp.

Heres a couple of pictures to show how she looks. Doesnt look ill to me, but shes defo not acting right









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sk3lly (14 Jun 2015)

Hello guys. Not had much luck getting hold of any of the suggested meds. I have been feeding a mix of live brine shrimp and a frozen mix with omegas and garlic i think. The Ram HAS been eating although not at her usual rate. She is still lethargic and very poorly looking. She has also had this red mark appear where her fin meets her body. My make ram also had this when he died.

Its been hard to get a picture as she does not venture into open water anymore. Any ideas what this might be and is it related?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## alto (15 Jun 2015)

I'm sorry to hear that she's not doing better ... whenever I see red marks I wonder about bacterial infections ... but that intense coloration is more often seen in viral infections ...
with fish, secondary infections are very likely.
When fish become very reclusive in the absence of other changes, illness is a likely candidate.
You might check with local vets to see if there is anyone with an ornamental fish interest.


----------

