# Am I still...



## LondonDragon (24 Jun 2016)

... welcomed here?? 

Us foreigners feel a little left out now!


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## Tim Harrison (24 Jun 2016)

Of course you're more than welcome here

...I doubt much will actually change.
UK is still a European country, just not in the bureaucracy of the Union any more.


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## OllieNZ (24 Jun 2016)

How about us non European foreigners?  I think once the initial shock wears off it will be business as usual for the majority of us.


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## dw1305 (24 Jun 2016)

Hi all,





LondonDragon said:


> Us foreigners feel a little left out now!


Paulo you aren't alone, some of your fellow Europeans of the British persuasion don't feel very welcome here today either.  





Troi said:


> Euroskepticism isn't peculiar to just the UK, and I wouldn't be surprised if other European counties hold their own referendums.


I'm sure your right, we had an Austrian teacher staying with us earlier in the year, and she was very anti-EU and also would rather have a had <"_a fascist than a green_"> in the recent Austrian presidential election (which took place why she was here).

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (24 Jun 2016)

Oops...hadn't realized I'd actually posted that last bit, but that's OK
I think the EU is a house of cards.


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## Daneland (24 Jun 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Paulo you aren't alone, some of your fellow Europeans of the British persuasion don't feel very welcome here today either.  I'm sure your right, we had an Austrian teacher staying with us earlier in the year, and she was very anti-EU and also would rather have a had <"_a fascist than a green_"> in the recent Austrian presidential election (which took place why she was here).
> 
> cheers Darrel



A fascist than a green! 
She is just stupid,if she has tasted a thin slice of fascism,she would have know how evil it is.And would not compare it to anything...


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## Nelson (24 Jun 2016)

Of course you are Paulo.You've lived here longer than a lot of people who voted to leave ! .


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## Lindy (24 Jun 2016)

Us Scots are pretty horrified by this all. Hopefully we can ditch England and stay in the EU!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (24 Jun 2016)

I'm sure you'll get a second referendum...
It'll be interesting to see how this will all pan out over the next couple or three years.
I'm incredibly optimistic...the future will be made by business leaders, not just in the UK (as it is for now at least) but in the rest of Europe and the world.
These guys are great at making money, keeping people in employment, and generating the world economy.
Despite the hyperbole to the contrary these are the people that determine our future, not the politicians and their bureaucracy, elected or otherwise.


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## Derek113 (24 Jun 2016)

If only us Scotts got the refferendum right the first time round we would have had a clean break from the UK.


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## Lindy (24 Jun 2016)

I know. Very frustrating. My husbands mother told us she voted no to indy ref as she didn't want to lose her pension. We were horrified! The scaremongering certainly worked on her.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (24 Jun 2016)

Ain't democracy a female canine...
Just as much as the law is a subgenus of _Equus...

P.S. "hee-haw"



 _


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## LondonDragon (24 Jun 2016)

Anyway I am here to stay and if you guys don't like it, I will just have to ban you all 

P.S. Its nice to know I am welcomed


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## Tim Harrison (24 Jun 2016)

Good...I'm glad


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## Derek113 (24 Jun 2016)

ldcgroomer said:


> I know. Very frustrating. My husbands mother told us she voted no to indy ref as she didn't want to lose her pension. We were horrified! The scaremongering certainly worked on her.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



I was more horrified by the people who didnt vote but seemed to have an opinion anyway.

We were talking about the EU outcome today at work. Out of six guys only two of us voted!


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## Alex J (25 Jun 2016)

Will be interesting to see how the Scots vote  when they get another independence referendum , I can see how a lot of them will be upset about being taken out of the EU by the English government  must be maddening for all those Scots who wanted independence in the first referendum but didn't get it,but as Troi  has said democracy can be a female canine


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## Aqua360 (25 Jun 2016)

ldcgroomer said:


> Us Scots are pretty horrified by this all. Hopefully we can ditch England and stay in the EU!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



*Some*


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## GHNelson (25 Jun 2016)

LondonDragon said:


> Anyway I am here to stay and if you guys don't like it, I will just have to ban you all




Then you can change the name to The European Aquatic Plant Society!..........................[/QUOTE]


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## Derek113 (25 Jun 2016)

I think Scotland would get independence if there was another vote. 
The outcome of the EU vote confirms we are not a united kingdom and its time we go our own ways.


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## GHNelson (25 Jun 2016)

Of course! What would we do without you Paulo
Business as usual as far as I'm concerned.......there's been to many scare mongering stories banded about!
The writing as been on the wall for the EU for a few years now.....its a huge bureaucratic monster out of control.


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## Alex J (25 Jun 2016)

Derek113 said:


> I think Scotland would get independence if there was another vote.
> The outcome of the EU vote confirms we are not a united kingdom and its time we go our own ways.


 would that mean that the  Scots on here would want to form there own aquatic plant society "SAPS"


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## Derek113 (25 Jun 2016)

Alex J said:


> would that mean that the  Scots on here would want to form there own aquatic plant society "SAPS"



Just need to find a chairman!


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## Alex J (25 Jun 2016)

or chair person


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## PARAGUAY (25 Jun 2016)

LondonDragon said:


> ... welcomed here??
> 
> Us foreigners feel a little left out now!


Amnesty for Aquascapers


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## Derek113 (25 Jun 2016)

Alex J said:


> or chair person



Equality is rampant!


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## Alex J (25 Jun 2016)




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## PARAGUAY (25 Jun 2016)

Troi said:


> Ain't democracy a female canine...
> Just as much as the law is a subgenus of _Equus...
> 
> P.S. "hee-haw"
> ...


No pictures of politicians please


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## LondonDragon (25 Jun 2016)

Until Section 50 is invoked Britain is still in the EU anyway, I don't see anyone with big enough balls at the moment to invoke it!!


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## Tim Harrison (25 Jun 2016)

Or the right haircut...Boris will do it as soon as he becomes Prime Minister


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Jun 2016)

Of course LD is welcome in the UK as is any foreign worker. To be honest its been a dirty campaign and people have been categorised into patriots and traitors or even worse xenophobic racists. This in my eyes from THE most tolerant, welcoming nation on the planet. Sure the idiots who have xenophobic tendencies jumped on the band wagon but they're in for a big shock if they think anything is going to change any time soon if at all. Probably at some point there will be some work permit system put in place but that will just help keep on top of who's here and what they're doing here. 

Looking at the demographic it clearly looks to me like it was more a vote of no confidence in the government that's came back to bite them in the blahblahblahblah. That's what happens when you use the one person one vote system which should be in place in all elections. Makes you wonder which leaders we would have had in the past if we did. We've adopted an American style system using seats and areas. If you have a seat with 20k people in and a seat with 5k people in for arguments sake and 18k vote one way in the 20k seat and and 2k vote the same way in the other seat that counts as one each. Effectively 22k people out of 25k end up being governed by someone they never voted for. Fundamentally that's just wrong and what's happened is the 22K had their voices heard whether you like that or not.

I live on the Border with Scotland but work throughout the UK, personally where I live there's no issue but people overwhelmingly voted out. I work in areas of the UK where entire building sites of carpenters getting £14-15 pound a hour have been paid off and replaced with eastern European carpenters on £7.50 a hour. Even accommodation, if these carpenters bit the bullet
and stuck it out they were stopping in £40 per night hotels whereas the European carpenters were stopping 10 to a rented house or even worse sleeping outside the job in the back of a van and that's no good to anybody especially the migrant workers. That's not what we're about here...I hope anyway. I would rather have seen them Immigrant workers on £15 per hour then everybody can have some kind of life.

Regarding Scotland, I fully empathise with their problems. They feel disenfranchised with Westminster as do most northerners as was seen in the Vote. Successive governments from both persuasions  have gave them a raw deal and they probably do feel that Europe would give them a fair crack of the whip or at least reel England in a bit. I have more in common with someone from Scotland than I do with someone from London. I feel as do many northerners that what happens down there benefits people down there but I think in England we've went for better changing our government than letting Europe decide, the power in London is so far in thinking from the North of England, the power in Europe even further. It seems like a vote in no confidence. Your voice is just getting less heard and the people have said they're not having it. Looks like the tribal elders have also spoken and they benefit quite a lot as does does Wales.

So hopefully no immigrants feel they are not welcome here. They're are more than welcome to come and live and work here, the more the merrier but it had to be on a level playing field and unscrupulous business owners not to abuse them. This vote wasn't about you, it was about the EU taking away our right to self govern and our own government not being in touch with the majority of our population. They asked us to speak and got their blahblahblahblah handed to them. People aren’t stupid but they would rather have a few tough years than continue with the status quo. EU shot themselves in the foot by being non negotiable. In this case they pushed it a little too far.

I hope things turn out alright and Scotland decides to stay with us. They are in a hell of a situation right now, I don't think there is anything Westminster wouldn't give them right now rather than another referendum which I suspect Nicola Sturgeon already knows.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Jun 2016)

I guess the poor migrant workers were collateral damage in a government that hasn't been working for decades and an EU that was trying to get more and more power over its member states.


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## LondonDragon (26 Jun 2016)

AverageWhiteBloke said:


> I work in areas of the UK where entire building sites of carpenters getting £14-15 pound a hour have been paid off and replaced with eastern European carpenters on £7.50 a hour. Even accommodation, if these carpenters bit the bullet and stuck it out they were stopping in £40 per night hotels whereas the European carpenters were stopping 10 to a rented house or even worse sleeping outside the job in the back of a van and that's no good to anybody especially the migrant workers.


This will not stop regardless if Britain is in the EU or not, happens in EU and non-EU countries. There are lots of non-EU migrants in London living here illegally and working for far less money than everyone else also. Will there be more control over this, I very much doubt it, will UK cut all their trading deals with EU? Free movement of good comes with free movement of labour, I very much doubt they will cut these ties, they will probably keep 80%+ of these laws.

End of the day I don't think much will change, but there are thousands of laws that now need to be agreed once again and this will take years, we will see what happens next week, the markets should recover, UK is still in the EU for now, but the Brexiters now need to come up with a solid plan, everything they promised is based on fiction, they just now need to start making those facts, if they cannot do that then UK could be in trouble for quite a while and at the end of the day we will all suffer British or non-British. The people you mentioned above have a right to stay here anyway so it really doesnt change anything.


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## GHNelson (26 Jun 2016)

We have already had a tough few years!
The EU was just the straw the broke the camels back!
There is a lot of disharmony in the UK about the way the average Joe has been treated in the last 10 years!
From increased pensionable age for women in their 50s .....losing out on a average of £20,000 of pension each!
From the Welfare reforms!
From the ATOS disaster!
From Banks being bailed out!
From NHS failings!
From Low Nursing moral!
From Education reforms!
From Doctors strikes!
From Dental and Prescription charges!
From Gas and Electricity bills!
From Toothless Regulators!
From High Fuel costs!
From High Car Insurance!
From Zero contract hours!
From Increased rail fares!
From High rents!
From No housing!
From No local Police Stations!
From Pot hole epidemics!
From Failing Privatisation's!
From MP Expenses!
From We are all in it TOGETHER............NOT.
There's more but I could be still on here till next week-end and I want to watch the Football........
hoggie


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Jun 2016)

Agree on all points. Not much is going to change but at least now people in England feel like they are now connected again with the decision making process again. 
Probably work out better for everyone, EU now saying they need to reform which works out better for the remaining member states. Scotland and Ireland have some heavy bargaining chips to get themselves a better deal in the UK and England gave their own government a reality check. 

England just took one for the team and I'm proud of that. Whether that works out better or worse in the short term it's far better than doing nothing at all. 

Unfortunately it was fought on immigration but it really was bigger than that I feel.


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## GHNelson (26 Jun 2016)

AWB
I agree it wasn't just about immigration....the majority of people that voted for a exit looked at the big picture, not just for themselves but for the younger generations to come!
A lot of them have a worst future than the bad old days of the 70s!
Take the Increased pension age for women born in the early 50s..... from 60 to 63....some of these women will be in poor health and can't work...but are expected too!
Or even forced!
We can bail out banks but can't give help to the ones who need it most and deserve it!
That is so wrong!
Its only the tip of the iceberg in my opinion!
hoggie


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## LondonDragon (26 Jun 2016)

hogan53 said:


> Take the Increased pension age for women born in the early 50s..... from 60 to 63....some of these women will be in poor health and can't work...but are expected too!
> Or even forced!
> We can bail out banks but can't give help to the ones who need it most and deserve it!
> That is so wrong!


That has got nothing to do with being a member of the EU!
People's life expectancy is much higher, governments must adapt to protect themselves.
Global markets crash, affects everyone.


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## Tim Harrison (26 Jun 2016)

I just think that the famous five (Schulz, Tusk, Rutte, Juncker, Lenaerts, and da Silva Caldiera; and Timmy the dog - well OK that's seven), have got it so wrong that Eurosceptics across the whole of Europe have had enough and the UK leaving is just the thin edge of the wedge...the rest will follow - trust me I used to be a lifeguard.

The EU has had its day, the project has failed and it's time for change. And I've said it before...it's all just a storm in a tea cup and leaving will ultimately pave the way for a new and prosperous democratic Europe free from the political meddling of unelected bureaucrats - see above names.

Europe's business leaders will determine our future and they're are not about to compromise. Angela Merkel acknowledges this and has been super quick to emphasize the fact...and what Germany wants, Germany usually gets... 

As grandma used to say in these 'ere parts.. 'it'll all come out in the wash'...stop panicking, it'll be fine...instead of living in the same house on top of one another we'll all just be good neighbours living in the same street.


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## AverageWhiteBloke (26 Jun 2016)

However we look at this or whether or not the vote went your way what we all can take from this is Scotland has had a raw deal for hundreds of years from Weatminster and the North of England for decades. The English forced the government to do something they didn't want to do for the first time in a very long time and Scotland will get the last say In whether it will be a United Kingdom.
Now if that isn't democracy I don't know what is. If there's one thing we can still do well in this country it's democracy.


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## Tim Harrison (26 Jun 2016)

That said tho'. I confess to being a little confused...Scotland voted to stay in the UK but isn't willing to accept the UK vote to leave...that to me is undermining the fundamental constitutional principles of democracy, as is the strange assurgence for a second referendum both in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
It's a very dangerous stance for democracy the world over.

P.S. in other words we can't hold an indefinite number of referendums until we get the right result.

It is what it is...we need to stop whining, pull to together and do our best to make a jolly good fist of it all. 

If we do this it'll be the best thing that has happened to the UK and Europe in 40 odd years.


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## Lindy (27 Jun 2016)

Many folk voted for Scotland to remain in the UK as they were told this was the only way they would remain in the EU. Many also succumbed to the lies and scaremongering and voted to remain in the UK.  I suspect they will change their vote in a second referendum. 
Unfortunately no matter why people voted out of the EU they have empowered the racist element who are now abusing people openly on the streets. It is sad and also frightening. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Tim Harrison (27 Jun 2016)

Yes you are right; both these aspects of recent politics are highly unfortunate.


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## roadmaster (27 Jun 2016)

Troi said:


> I'm sure you'll get a second referendum...
> It'll be interesting to see how this will all pan out over the next couple or three years.
> I'm incredibly optimistic...the future will be made by business leaders, not just in the UK (as it is for now at least) but in the rest of Europe and the world.
> These guys are great at making money, keeping people in employment, and generating the world economy.
> Despite the hyperbole to the contrary these are the people that determine our future, not the politicians and their bureaucracy, elected or otherwise.




Here in U.S. 90% of all job's are created by the small business owner's.
Business leader's like Trump the insuffereable #%&*!, will only be happy when we are all working for room and board and buying our food from the company store sponsored by the employer.
We in the U.S. will have the distasteful task of voting for the lesser of two evil's Trump,or Hillary.
Only positive I can see is that Hillary has Bill to help her at a task she is wholly unqualified for.


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## Tim Harrison (27 Jun 2016)

No comment...


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## Daneland (29 Jun 2016)

ldcgroomer said:


> Unfortunately no matter why people voted out of the EU they have empowered the racist element who are now abusing people openly on the streets. It is sad and also frightening.


I dont believe it will make a big difference in terms of economics,democracy or sovereignty if the UK leaves the EU .It is just rhetoric!
But it will rise far right,xenophobia,anti-immigrant (not anti-immigration) policies.Have a closer look at it, who is happy with the result?


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## PARAGUAY (4 Jul 2016)

LondonDragon said:


> ... welcomed here??
> 
> Us foreigners feel a little left out now!


 Will Taffy and company still be welcome in Lisbon after beating Ronaldo and team


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## LondonDragon (4 Jul 2016)

PARAGUAY said:


> Will Taffy and company still be welcome in Lisbon after beating Ronaldo and team


I will let you know on Wednesday night


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## Manisha (27 Jul 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Here in U.S. 90% of all job's are created by the small business owner's.
> Business leader's like Trump the insuffereable #%&*!, will only be happy when we are all working for room and board and buying our food from the company store sponsored by the employer.
> We in the U.S. will have the distasteful task of voting for the lesser of two evil's Trump,or Hillary.
> Only positive I can see is that Hillary has Bill to help her at a task she is wholly unqualified for.



Was she not running the show for Billy bob back in the day...? How illegal she gets to do two runs!!!


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## PARAGUAY (28 Jul 2016)

A bit late but congrats to Portugal.Wales contribution was a real Roy of the Rovers story(maybe a book)how the superstar Bale returned to his roots,refused to be treated any different than his teammates and showed how a team on paper should not but did reach dizzy heights and how his nemesis met them on the way


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## PARAGUAY (28 Jul 2016)

Why all the critisism of Hilary Clinton ?


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## Manisha (28 Jul 2016)

PARAGUAY said:


> Why all the critisism of Hilary Clinton ?



Not a criticism, but I was under the impression when Bill Clinton was in office he was more 'front of house' and Hilary was the brains & US presidents aren't allowed to run after their 8 years is up. So technically Hilary may get two runs if she's elected - a little ironic.


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## PARAGUAY (29 Jul 2016)

I don't want to debate US politics too much,have enough trouble working out UK at the moment,but t he Democrats seem to me,(who will ever sort everything out?). the best bet as the alternative is a bit frightening and to be fair HC seems to have been a competent politician without Bill,who I liked. US politics matter to everyone so I hope our friends in the US get it right


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## Manisha (30 Jul 2016)

Very true  In all honesty though it was so long ago the Clintons were in office, l was probably too young to really get it


LondonDragon said:


> ... welcomed here??
> 
> Us foreigners feel a little left out now!



Definitely! (Although I'm Indian so would probably be told to 'go home' by the rest of the extremists )



Lindy said:


> Many folk voted for Scotland to remain in the UK as they were told this was the only way they would remain in the EU. Many also succumbed to the lies and scaremongering and voted to remain in the UK.  I suspect they will change their vote in a second referendum.
> Unfortunately no matter why people voted out of the EU they have empowered the racist element who are now abusing people openly on the streets. It is sad and also frightening.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



This is really awful  I think the reasons for the extremists voting out are Bourne out of fear, not hope for the future or the desire for progression leading to this increase in violence and attacks on innocent people perceived to be the route cause 

Though I truly believe the majority of 'out' voters do not hold these extremist views and are ordinary people who would like more political independence then the EU had to offer and accountability with the decision making process in the EU was a weak point.

Only on this basis could the country be taken forward at this point by a strong political team (which we lack).

Although we have to all work together to move forward from where we are now, can't help but feel we'll look back in ten years time & see this as a massive step backwards in Britain.


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## Iliveinazoo (30 Jul 2016)

Manisha said:


> Although we have to all work together to move forward from where we are now, can't help but feel we'll look back in ten years time & see this as a massive step backwards in Britain.



Maybe, but we had a problem whereby the laws in our country could be overridden by the EU (think prisoners votes), ultimately we were (currently still are) a state within a superstate in all but name.  The problem was that nobody told us and no poliician wanted to admit that is what we had become.

The truth is that if the EU had given a miniscule amount of soveriegnty back to member states then the UK would have voted to stay in.  They called the bluff and lost.  Uncontrolled Immigration was so far down my list of priorities but when I realised that the biggest reason i was thinking about voting in was to keep the UK together I knew I had to vote out.  I would love the UK to stay together but Scotland almost voted out last time and no matter if we had stayed in the EU or not then they would vote out the next time, Scotland now votes in their equivalent of UKIP with a huge majority that i can't see it going any other way, I don't really blame them though because our political system only seems to care about London but Scotland doesn't get the worst deal when compared to all of the other areas of the UK.

I am not an extremist and would be massively upset if somebody called me one, in fact one of my reasons to vote out was to make the country more welcoming to those that come from outside of the EU, the positive discrimination that exists within the EU towards EU citizens did not sit comfortably wth me.


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## Manisha (31 Jul 2016)

Iliveinazoo said:


> Maybe, but we had a problem whereby the laws in our country could be overridden by the EU (think prisoners votes), ultimately we were (currently still are) a state within a superstate in all but name.  The problem was that nobody told us and no poliician wanted to admit that is what we had become.
> 
> The truth is that if the EU had given a miniscule amount of soveriegnty back to member states then the UK would have voted to stay in.  They called the bluff and lost.  Uncontrolled Immigration was so far down my list of priorities but when I realised that the biggest reason i was thinking about voting in was to keep the UK together I knew I had to vote out.  I would love the UK to stay together but Scotland almost voted out last time and no matter if we had stayed in the EU or not then they would vote out the next time, Scotland now votes in their equivalent of UKIP with a huge majority that i can't see it going any other way, I don't really blame them though because our political system only seems to care about London but Scotland doesn't get the worst deal when compared to all of the other areas of the UK.
> 
> I am not an extremist and would be massively upset if somebody called me one, in fact one of my reasons to vote out was to make the country more welcoming to those that come from outside of the EU, the positive discrimination that exists within the EU towards EU citizens did not sit comfortably wth me.



I agree Iliveinazoo the EU was far from perfect but there's a greater possibility to make changes from within rather than have no say from outside - It would have been good to remember it was formed initially as a trading agreement and free movement of goods, services & labour benefit all businesses within (from an economics perspective).

Not being in the EU isn't going to be dreadful - but there are are uncertain times ahead and there's already a negative impact on the market and investments. I worry for my kids future and what their 'Britain' will be. On the upside...great time to invest ☺


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## dean (1 Aug 2016)

I say lets lust deport everyone who is not an aquarist or an aquascaper 
No vat on aquarium products of any kind and subsidise the cost of substrates 




Regards
Dean


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## roadmaster (2 Aug 2016)

Manisha said:


> Not a criticism, but I was under the impression when Bill Clinton was in office he was more 'front of house' and Hilary was the brains & US presidents aren't allowed to run after their 8 years is up. So technically Hilary may get two runs if she's elected - a little ironic.



Hillary couldn't find her house slipper's with  a map, and judging from her bang up job in the Benghazi affair (too little too late), I can see no good coming from her as the leader of the free world, but the alternative is bleak.
I am struck stupid by those who would consider for a moment the Donald .


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