# Ember Tetras not doing well



## Manu (6 Jan 2016)

Hello everybody,

I have a shoal of 12 Ember tetras and two of them are not doing well.
The first one is behaving normally but has something weird near its back fin. It looks like the skin is damaged:




 



 



 

The second really worries me as it's behaving really weird... She seems to struggle swimming, and I can her mouth opening and closing very frequently...
She has some kind of spot on the body. I have looked on the internet for similar post but I didn't find anything...



 



 



 

Sorry for the poor pictures, it's difficult to have some good shots...

Many thanks for your help.

Cheers,
Manu


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## Nelson (6 Jan 2016)

White spot on the 2nd.Not sure on the swimming problem though.


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## alto (6 Jan 2016)

How long have you had the fish?

Agree with Nelson, treat for white spot ASAP (state of infection is well on it's way before the first "white spot" is visible) - if you can't get medication, then begin with large water changes as this will remove free-swimming stages, vacuum substrate thoroughly as this will remove some soon to "hatch" stage (these are "sticky" so difficult to remove efficiently unless tank is bare bottom).

It is possible to treat white spot by moving fish every 12-24 hours to a new bare bottom tank ... though this experiment was done with (likely - as it's been a good while since I read the article) zebra danios;
the embers will likely stress (which significantly suppresses immune function) in a bare tank so they might still do best in a planted tank.

Keep lights dim & optimize water column oxygen/aeration as fish are struggling to maintain oxygen levels (white spot primary target area is the gills, but it can spread through out the fish, once it infiltrates muscle etc, disease is generally fatal; it is also possible for the parasite to complete it's life cycle _in situ_ on the fish, again once this occurs, disease is generally fatal - you'll see the "white spots" become larger amorphous patches)


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## zozo (6 Jan 2016)

Swimming problem and body diformeties are 90% caused by bad water quality, could be amonia or nitrite poissoning, this causes oxygene difficience and the heavy breathing symptoms and swollen red gils.. It causes also an accumulation of waste products in the fishes body. This causes the muscles to cramp so severe, deformities in the spine and other bodyparts are not uncommen. Even after water changes and or removing the amonia or nitrite from the water, affected fish still can live very long time afterwards, suffering before they finaly die.. Once severely poisened and diformed there is no chance of survival, it's best to euthanize them and release them from suffering any further.  Sorry for your embers.. 

Naturaly, bad water quality affects the immune system, also helps other infections to spread as well..


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## xim (6 Jan 2016)

The first Ember's body looks opaque, could be from infection in the muscle. The whitish area could be columnaris. And that dark line on the body, I don't know what it is. But most suffering Embers have it. I'm afraid both have no chance to survive.


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## GHNelson (6 Jan 2016)

Hi Manu
First Ember.....could be Neon Tetra disease.
Or Columnaris!

Second Ember tetra has White spot (Ich)
Plus seems to have a early stage bacteria infection....coming under the term dropsy.
Symptoms
Swimming in a uncoordinated manner
Breathing difficulty.
Observations
Bulging eyes
Bloating of the body
Protruding scales.
Dropsy is not a specific disease, but rather a symptom of a deteriorating health condition....there are many reasons as ZoZo states....poor water quality, stress,internal bacterial infections, parasites, viruses and tumour's!
Dropsy also known as Pinecone disease!
Usually fatal  when the scales start protruding similar to a Pinecone!
hoggie


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## Manu (6 Jan 2016)

Nelson said:


> White spot on the 2nd


Thanks Nelson, I thought it could be but it looked different from pictures I saw on google images...



alto said:


> How long have you had the fish?


I had some of them for over 5 months and others for about 3 months.

I think the main issue is the stress, I will have to rethink the design of the tank. Front and back are visible and there is not enough hiding places for the fish to feel secure...
When we pass in front of the tank to go upstairs, fish go to the back but then we pass behind the tank and they move to front... so they don't get a break, and it's even worse when more people are around...
I'll make sure I keep the filter maintenance spot on. I have two filters running for a 200l tank. Shall I clean filter A then two weeks later filter B, two weeks later filter A, ... ?
Would that be a good pattern?

I will remove the fish tomorrow and hope the other ones will be fine...

Thanks a lot everyone for your quick and helpful replies.

Cheers,
Manu


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## zozo (6 Jan 2016)

Manu i also have a school of 11 embers in my tank and i also noticed they are very shy and very easily intimidated. Embers where till 2 months ago next to some bottom dwellers the only schooling fish in my tank. 2 months ago i added 7 black tetra's with them.. I noticed those black tetras wich are also a bit bigger beeing much more bold (micro)predators hunting for larger sized food than embers. The black tetra's seem to be afraid of about nothing and everything dropping in the tank emediately triggers the black tetra's hunting instinct. The tweezers, sciccors or my fingers it doesn't matter they charge emediatly everything that enters the water to come look if it is food.

I noticed the embers very positively reacting to that and didn't take long to become much less shy, the relative food agresive black tetra behaivor also triggers the embers hunting instinct. Usualy if did put a finger in the tank the embers would hide away emediatly in the opposite corner. Now since the black tetras are there the embers show also more food agresion and even try to outcompete the black tetras to be quicker at my finger then they are. 

It turned out to be a perfect combination and triggered a healthy competition..


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## xim (7 Jan 2016)

zozo said:


> Manu i also have a school of 11 embers in my tank and i also noticed they are very shy and very easily intimidated. Embers where till 2 months ago next to some bottom dwellers the only schooling fish in my tank. 2 months ago i added 7 black tetra's with them.. I noticed those black tetras wich are also a bit bigger beeing much more bold (micro)predators hunting for larger sized food than embers. The black tetra's seem to be afraid of about nothing and everything dropping in the tank emediately triggers the black tetra's hunting instinct. The tweezers, sciccors or my fingers it doesn't matter they charge emediatly everything that enters the water to come look if it is food.
> 
> I noticed the embers very positively reacting to that and didn't take long to become much less shy, the relative food agresive black tetra behaivor also triggers the embers hunting instinct. Usualy if did put a finger in the tank the embers would hide away emediatly in the opposite corner. Now since the black tetras are there the embers show also more food agresion and even try to outcompete the black tetras to be quicker at my finger then they are.
> 
> It turned out to be a perfect combination and triggered a healthy competition..



Same here but with Oto cats, they don't hide anymore after I have added more fish (Green Neon tetras).


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## Greenfinger2 (7 Jan 2016)

Hi Manu, Sorry to hear your fish are sick  Salt works on White spot or higher temp some info.

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles_88/white-spot.htm


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## darren636 (7 Jan 2016)

Peduncle disease?


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## Manu (7 Jan 2016)

zozo said:


> Manu i also have a school of 11 embers in my tank and i also noticed they are very shy and very easily intimidated. Embers where till 2 months ago next to some bottom dwellers the only schooling fish in my tank. 2 months ago i added 7 black tetra's with them.. I noticed those black tetras wich are also a bit bigger beeing much more bold (micro)predators hunting for larger sized food than embers. The black tetra's seem to be afraid of about nothing and everything dropping in the tank emediately triggers the black tetra's hunting instinct. The tweezers, sciccors or my fingers it doesn't matter they charge emediatly everything that enters the water to come look if it is food.
> 
> I noticed the embers very positively reacting to that and didn't take long to become much less shy, the relative food agresive black tetra behaivor also triggers the embers hunting instinct. Usualy if did put a finger in the tank the embers would hide away emediatly in the opposite corner. Now since the black tetras are there the embers show also more food agresion and even try to outcompete the black tetras to be quicker at my finger then they are.
> 
> It turned out to be a perfect combination and triggered a healthy competition..



Hi Zozo,
Thanks for sharing your experience, that's very interesting, I'll keep that in mind for the future.
There is a school of 12 cardinals with them and funny enough, although they are bigger than the embers, they are more shy...



xim said:


> Same here but with Oto cats, they don't hide anymore after I have added more fish (Green Neon tetras).



Well, my oto's are not really hiding but they don't like when I am cleaning the tank...
I think there is not enough cover in the tank for the fish to feel safe.

So I removed the two poor fish and I bought some anti whitespot treatment from eSHa EXIT recommended at my LFS.
I am not sure if I should use it yet as the other fish seem fine and I am concerned about the shrimps. The composition is:
Ethacridine lactate, Malachite green oxalate and Methylene blue.
I thinking of observing the fish for a week and if I can spot something, then I would treat.

I am increasing the temperature from 22 to 25 as per the recommendation from the LFS.
I thought the water temperature was at 23 but realised that the atc-300 is not well calibrated and reads about 1.5 degrees higher than the actual temperature...

Once I know for sure that the fish are ok, I would like to start the tank from scratch and provide a lot more cover with heavy planting. I have a another 60 litres low tech tank running with only a few shrimps in it at the moment. How long could I keep the fish in it until I rescape the main tank?
I could run two filters on it, do more water changes...

Cheers,
Manu


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## rebel (8 Jan 2016)

How long have you observed these changes? Any deaths?


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## Manu (8 Jan 2016)

rebel said:


> How long have you observed these changes? Any deaths?


Hi Rebel,
In the first two months, the plants were growing well but soon the plant mass prevented a good co2 distribution. So I changed the set up, new atomisers, bubble counters,... 
I had some issues with the co2 and got a bit of BBA. I had to remove plants...
And I think that's from then that fish seemed to be more stressed as there is a lack of cover...
I didn't any death, but I had to remove two fish I described earlier as they really looked in bad condition and I didn't want to let them be in pain...

This morning, the temperature was around 23.5 and the fish looked a bit more active.
I've also raised the spray bar to increase gas exchange.

I still think I should rescape the tank but I want to keep the fish and I don't want to stress them.

Not sure what's the best thing to do with them while the tank is being set up...
Can I keep them a month or so in the 60l tank with two filters running? 

Cheers, 
Manu


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## zozo (8 Jan 2016)

Manu said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience, that's very interesting, I'll keep that in mind for the future.
> There is a school of 12 cardinals with them and funny enough, although they are bigger than the embers, they are more shy...



Welcome  For me it's the first time to actualy to observe such a behaivor change, i probably never would have done if i did put them together from day one.
So it's as intresting to me as well and also again a learning curve..  Had several tetra species Neons, Cardinals, phanthoms etc in he past but never black tetra's, i notice them beeing the most frenzy of all tetra's i ever had. Actualy observing this and thinking of it, it's actauly only logical/natural and this also works like that the other way around. That if you put shy characters sp. together, they only trigger eachother to flee and hide. That's what scholing fish do, the outer circle spots a threat, they flee and the rest follows. It even seems to be that scholing fish in threat communicate with secreting stress hormones. Visa Versa, if the outer circle spots food they charge and the rest follows again and go frenzy.

I understand your thoughts of scrapping the tank and start over, i had about the same experience when i started again last year. With taking home sick or already stressed fish from the LFS. But i think this redesigning and scrapping the tank is a bit to drastic. It might be the fish you bought already were not in the best condition is more obvious than blamming yourself for that. These things can happen to all of us and indeed if a tank is still young and not fully grown in it's not the best place for little sholing fish at the food chain bottom to feel safe and happy after such a stressfull move. Well that's a lurning curve again a lot of us seem to go through, unfortunately you lose some money and some spirit and some fish loose their life.  That's why i always say (and i also had to learn this) keeping fish is not about you, it is about them. Don't give them what you want, you need to give them what they want.  That will make it all work a lot beter  It's a crapy way to learn things, but can't turn back time, it is what it is. 

Anyway every fish tank and about every fish can/does house some parasites, this again is only natural. Starting over doesn't prevent a thing. Just treat the tank you have and wait it out and see what survives. You already have what you have, can't change much about that, it's a matter of time to let the tank mature, plants grow to provide shelter. This takes months.. I see you have an open top, you could put some floating vegitation in it to give some extra shelter, tetras love that. You could throw in a bunch of egeria densa, temporarely and let it float, it doesn't need substrate, to add plantmass and shelter. take it out again when other plants have grown enough. And indeed if your tank is in a walk way where constantly playing kids and people are passing by it's only more stressfull for those kind of fish in a imature tank. I do not think you need a redisign, maybe reposition the tank to another less bussy corner in the house.


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## Manu (8 Jan 2016)

zozo said:


> I understand your thoughts of scrapping the tank and start over, i had about the same experience when i started again last year. With taking home sick or already stressed fish from the LFS. But i think this redesigning and scrapping the tank is a bit to drastic. It might be the fish you bought already were not in the best condition is more obvious than blamming yourself for that. These things can happen to all of us and indeed if a tank is still young and not fully grown in it's not the best place for little sholing fish at the food chain bottom to feel safe and happy after such a stressfull move. Well that's a lurning curve again a lot of us seem to go through, unfortunately you lose some money and some spirit and some fish loose their life. That's why i always say (and i also had to learn this) keeping fish is not about you, it is about them. Don't give them what you want, you need to give them what they want.  That will make it all work a lot beter  It's a crapy way to learn things, but can't turn back time, it is what it is.



Hi Zozo,

Thanks a lot for your message. I know what you mean with buying fish that are already stressed but in that case I can just blame myself, you'll see why:
I followed your advise and decided not to start from scratch. I could not move the tank elsewhere as it's built in/recessed into a wall... I custom built the cabinet too and it's now part of the wall... (they are some pictures on my journal). But I've decided to give up with trying to make the scape look good from both front and back. It was a nice idea, but not with a 45cm deep tank...
So right after work I went to buy some lovely Tropica plants: a pot of Pogostemon erectus, a pot of Echinodorus and a pot of Alternanthera reineckii pink 
I have moved a lot of crypt from the back to front, added some akadama at the back to give more depth and planted the new plants. (I will update my journal with some pictures)
Immediately after that the fish were visiting the tank all around! The cardinals are not anymore sticking to the bottom but more toward the middle and they don't seem to be so nervous when walking in front the tank 
I am so happy that the fish are feeling safer, and hopefully they won't get sick...

Concerning the floating plants, I have tried before but the surface agitation they kept being moved around and didn't like it...
So I will try to find some Vallisneria spiralis Torta and let it grow until the surface.

Many thanks again for your advise!!! I am glad you pushed me to keep the scape and improve it 

Cheers,
Manu


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## zozo (9 Jan 2016)

Hey Manu,  Good to hear you keep the tank as is and improve the setup for the fish..  Sorry i only looked at a few of you latest picture to refresh my mind about what tank it's al about. I did read and watched parts of your journal in the past but there is so many to read and watch at this forum it's hard to keep all neatly arranged on the harddrive between my ears.. ..

Actualy a tank in the wall was my initial idea i wanted to do myself, already have to hole in the wall between kitchen and dinning room. I didn't go on with it because i was to long out of the hobby and didn't yet know what plants would suit a setup like that best.. That's why i first started an other setup where i intergrated the idea just a little to get to know as much as plants as i can a bit better and learn how they mature and can be kept in check. I think it can be done a 180 degree viewable tank.. And it's still on my whish list i definetily going to make one day.. I think you still can too, later.. First learn your plants see and watch how they grow and how they could make the scape work.. Starting from scratch without that knowledge is indeed easy to fail.. This is what you already learned now.. Just skip the idea for now and learn to make it work.

My idea of making this work is scaping in a V shape setup...
If you mirror this image it as if your standing at the other side.. 




but because it's and 180 degree view it needs to be a wrenched V shape.. Like when you view it from the top it would look like this. 2 scapes facing eachother diagonaly. 



Could use a piece of driftwood to connect the 2 scape parts togheter as sort of a bridge over the valley.. So no matter where you stand (back - front, which isn't actualy there) when you look diagonaly into the tank from left to right you'll look into a path where the left side goes up and the right side goes down. Where i wrote high, you could go high enough with the substrate to make a nice enchinodorus go partialy emersed and go with grass like plants down the slope. Fish will always have a place to go  out of sight. This is in my idea the only way to get it nicely done without the whole scape just looking flat.

This is how i think would set up a 180 degree viewable tank.  This i have already on my mind for a long time.. When i know the plants which can make it work for me in a sense of scale, than i'll make it, maybe next year..  The tank i'm going to do this with isn't going to be deeper than 45 cm


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## zozo (9 Jan 2016)

Ps i hope my brain fart  makes a bit sence to you.. 
Else look at James Findleys Reciprocity.. He gave me the inspiration to shrink this down 5 times.
That allso means you need to schrink partialy  the plants used down as well to make it work in a small scale.


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## Manu (13 Jan 2016)

zozo said:


> Hey Manu,  Good to hear you keep the tank as is and improve the setup for the fish..  Sorry i only looked at a few of you latest picture to refresh my mind about what tank it's al about. I did read and watched parts of your journal in the past but there is so many to read and watch at this forum it's hard to keep all neatly arranged on the harddrive between my ears.. ..
> 
> Actualy a tank in the wall was my initial idea i wanted to do myself, already have to hole in the wall between kitchen and dinning room. I didn't go on with it because i was to long out of the hobby and didn't yet know what plants would suit a setup like that best.. That's why i first started an other setup where i intergrated the idea just a little to get to know as much as plants as i can a bit better and learn how they mature and can be kept in check. I think it can be done a 180 degree viewable tank.. And it's still on my whish list i definetily going to make one day.. I think you still can too, later.. First learn your plants see and watch how they grow and how they could make the scape work.. Starting from scratch without that knowledge is indeed easy to fail.. This is what you already learned now.. Just skip the idea for now and learn to make it work.
> 
> ...



Hello Marcel and sorry for the late reply...

I really like your design   , and you're right, this will work 
And it's much more achievable than what I was imagining in my little head... I was trying to build up the substrate a long the middle to give some depth but it didn't really work... Next time I rescape, I'll try your design 

I've received a lot of plants from aqua essential and I'll be doing some planting over the weekend. I'll update the journal then 

Oh, I saw you might be coming to the UKAPS meeting... It would be great to meet you there!

Cheers,
Manu


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## zozo (14 Jan 2016)

Manu said:


> Hello Marcel and sorry for the late reply...


Never mind 

Funny i had same ideas when i started again april last year..  Also thought of an island scape, but  in a small tank it is even more tedious.. I wouldn't know how to pull that off in a standard size tank without beeing very lucky with finding the right hardware or have huge endless supply to shoose from. I tried it in my Tree of life scape, to centre the hardware a bit but couldn't find the hardware for it in the local lfs's. With what i had collected i came +/- 12 cm tank width and 20 cm tank lenght short with the 60x30x30 i had.. Next standard size closest to that was 100 x 50 x 50 and that spoiled it again because of the 50 height it had to be 30. I was thinking of trying to custom build the tank around the scape with the hardware i had. But tossed all those crazy ideas for later, wasn't confident enough to do it. I'm not ready for scapes like that yet. I just scaped it with the 12 cm i didn't had in my fantasy and still see it when i watch it.. If i had it i would have done this, viewed from the side panel..


 

But already practiced on tank building, so work in progress.  One day Manu and we pull it off i'm sure..  Can't wait to see your journal update and new plants..

Me too i hope i can make it..  Seriously thinking about it.. Never had a motivation to visit the UK.. And never could have imagined that aquascaping would bring that to me.. 

Good luck with planting..


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