# My tank



## Alan Fluxion (17 Apr 2014)

So my thread was locked because it was a little OT  so I'll do as ceg suggested...


So about my aquarium, I started it "dry" all my plants including grass rooted very nicely, I decided on a dry start since I'm new to aquatics and did not want to battle with algae from the begining since it would demotivate me from continuing. The dry start ran for 1,5mths at which point I became impatient and angry that my wife was getting impatient and nagging me "when will there be water", "why won't you pour in some water", "why isn't there water" so I added the water and watched the plants and algae grow.

I first started with a Aquael Fan 3 which wasn't optimal but I knew that I'd be looking for a external filter and would save the internal as a backup. I had everything almost stabilized, algae was under control I purchased 2 used filters (Tetratec ex700 and Aquael FZN-3), had everything for CO2 and installed it... first mistake I made in my learning process was ... I took out my external filter instead of leaving it to transfer the good bacteria to the new filter, the second mistake I made was installing the external filter.

The first 4 days the external filter was fantastic, it sucked in all the algae from my rocks and made my water clear but something just wasn't right... as soon as I added the filter and CO2 my plants went from beautiful to rotting and eventually falling off and being sucked into the filter. The 5th day the filter went from washing machine effect in my aquarium to not being able to move the water at all... no matter what I did the filter does not want to work properly, the fish were pissed off and floating at the top to get some air because the water was standing still... so after 2 days of fussing around and getting angry I took out the TetraTec and put in the cascading filter which I am 110% satisfied with. The water is moving, it's clear again the fish are coming out to play and hunt.

Now I'm hoping that my plants will come back to life, the roots and stems are there and they're releasing new leaves so I'll need to give it time.

Aquarium: 60L, 60x30x30
Lights: SunSun HDD-600B 2x24W T5 - Sylvania Luxline Plus + Sylvania Aquastar
Filtration: Temporarily Aquael FZN-3 Cascading filter with a backup Aqual Fan Filter 3 and a Tetratec ex700 which doesn't want to work right.
Background: Black self adhesive foil
Soil: JBL Mondo
Rocks: Lava
Temperature: 24c usingTetra HT 100
Flora: Eleocharis Acicularis, Eleocharis Parvula, Alternanther Sp. Red, Hygrophila difformis, Ludwigia repens
Co2: 1,5kg Co2 bottle
Fish: Cierniooczek Myersa, (there's one more, just do not recall the name)


















I'll need to take some pictures of the current status of the aquarium, but it looks like blahblahblahblah and am disappointed in it, so I'll wait a bit

My aquarium in it's current state... not very good, I think I'm missing potassium and maybe something effected my ecosystem... filter





As you can tell my co2 is distributed very nicely and the bubbles are tiny





Meet Fred 



[DOUBLEPOST=1397761435][/DOUBLEPOST]I will be buying some salts at the end of this month ...

KNO3 + MgSO4x7H2O + KH2PO4 + CSM+B+FE

and doing EI according to ceg... I have some Makro/Micro but since I'm not 100% sure what it is, I will be getting some new salts and doing EI the proper way... my only question would be how do I measure it off correctly ... 2 1/4 tsp... aren't tsp's different sizes?


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## ceg4048 (17 Apr 2014)

Alan Fluxion said:


> my only question would be how do I measure it off correctly ... 2 1/4 tsp... aren't tsp's different sizes?


Hello,
         You need to abandon this question completely because it is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what size your teaspoon is. For any sized teaspoon, the amount of nutrition we are adding is very high. What we are hoping is that the plants consider the amount they see as being infinite from their perspective. Therefore, whether your version of infinity is 10% smaller or larger that someone else's version of infinity will make no difference.




Alan Fluxion said:


> Lights: SunSun HDD-600B 2x24W T5 - Sylvania Luxline Plus + Sylvania Aquastar


That is too much light to start a 15 gallon tank. That is the source of all your problems.

Cheers,


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## tim (18 Apr 2014)

Amen light, IS evil on tank start up.


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## Alan Fluxion (18 Apr 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,
> You need to abandon this question completely because it is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what size your teaspoon is. For any sized teaspoon, the amount of nutrition we are adding is very high. What we are hoping is that the plants consider the amount they see as being infinite from their perspective. Therefore, whether your version of infinity is 10% smaller or larger that someone else's version of infinity will make no difference.


I see, I wasn't sure since the 3/16ths is pretty precise... so as long as the measurements fit with a fault tolerence of a few % the dosing will be the same.

Now as I re-read your post about EI it clearly states it doesn't matter since we're dosing more than the plants need.



ceg4048 said:


> That is too much light to start a 15 gallon tank. That is the source of all your problems.
> 
> Cheers,


Really? I've never read or thought about it, I read when I was starting to have a good W/L of a minimum .50W/L depending on your plant species... but nowhere about it being too much light, to be honest I thought it was actually better to have more light. So what's the recommendation, turn off one bulb? will the  Parvula suffer because of this?

I keep the light on from 9.30-18, so I was assuming that it was ok... :\


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## Edvet (18 Apr 2014)

Take your time and read the articles in the tutorial section, realy you can learn a lot there http://www.ukaps.org/forum/forums/tutorials.34/
You can learn about CO2, light, ferts.
Basicaly: start with low light, get CO2 working in correct fashion (on before lights, get sufficient pH drop), get enough flow, use EI, do water changes ( a lot of them).


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## Alan Fluxion (18 Apr 2014)

Thanks Edvet.

I have been reading quite a bit on PL and ENG forums but the funny part is that not all topics have the same opinions.

I will sort out the lighting problem today, take one bulb out and shorten time to 6,5hrs and at the end of the month I'll start with EI.[DOUBLEPOST=1397816858][/DOUBLEPOST]I just got home, removed 1 bulb and changed the time to 6hrs... the co2 just like before is swimming around in the tank.[DOUBLEPOST=1397817012][/DOUBLEPOST]I got the co2 to be spread around even better, I set the precision valve a micromilimiter less and set the tube to point up and around which is creating smaller bubbles and they're being forced down immedietly.  so hopefully that'll help...

As I understand with the light being so much, the co2 is being wasted faster than it should.... and the plants are using up the ferts I give it faster than they should too.... correct?


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## Edvet (18 Apr 2014)

Not so much wasted. the plants are limited by CO2 the most in our tanks. Ferts are easy to dose plenty, it's (too) easy to give a lot of light, It's CO2 wich gives the most troubles, we can't see it, it's hard to measure, hard to distribute correctly, it is difficult to get a lot of it in the water and in high doses it can be toxic to fish. But it is very important to get it right  .And the most misunderstood in many fora.


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## Alan Fluxion (18 Apr 2014)

how will I know when I've reached a well balanced light/co2/fert level? the dropchecker will tell me co2 and light... right?


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## Edvet (18 Apr 2014)

Dropchecker i wouldnt count on it to much. A pH profile would give the best info at the moment, than if you know what's going on you can use a dropchecker to see if you are still on track. The best proof of balance is in the plants. They grow according to your light level and are healthy and litle or no algea problems, That's the proof.


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## Alan Fluxion (18 Apr 2014)

so it had to be pretty bad since I have no plants :\ I understand... I'll get this stabilized then purchase some more plants... Pervular from what I know is very sensitive, if it starts growing like buckweed I'll know I'm on the right track. 

By the way, thanks for the help... we'll see what happens 

I cleaned up my aquarium again today, took a toothbrush and cleaned all the rocks, cleaned the glass, filter (floss is tossed, ceramic rings are cleaned in the water from the tank) and did a 50% water change (a lot of algae floating around.)


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## Alan Fluxion (21 Apr 2014)

I did another cleaning, and water change today (20%), I also cleaned up all the old decaying stems from the plants that died... about 1/4th of the plants is left unfortunately...  but it needed to be done... this also helped with the algae that was building up behind the plants.

I did some planting today outside of the aquarium, took tiny pieces of my pervular and planted it in some small jars, the jars are on the windowsill now, hopefully I can make some nice fragments of carpet for future use


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## ceg4048 (21 Apr 2014)

A 20% water change is too puny. You'll need to get into the habit of thinking in terms of larger water changes and of doing them more frequently. If there are no fish in the tank, and if the tank is only 15 USG then a 99% water change 2X-3X per week is not unreasonable. The tank must be kept spotless.

Cheers,


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## Alan Fluxion (21 Apr 2014)

Eh, wow 2-3x per week 99% that's a lot :\ didn't know it should be that much... unfortunately though I do have 2 creatures living in the aquarium so I don't think 99% would be possible but I could do 80 ish since they are bottom dwellers and usually are in their hiding spots somewhere by the rocks when I do the water changes..

.other part that sucks is I live in the area of Poland that has the most expensive water :\ 11zł for 1m2 of cold water  which is quite a bit, but that's irrelevant


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## ceg4048 (21 Apr 2014)

Well, you can always  collect rain water in large water butts and use that to supplement your tap water.

When you have serious plant health issues such as you show in your opening post then you need to take extreme measures to get the tank back to health. Reducing light intensity is the first critical step. Improving CO2 is second. Keeping the tank clean is the next step. Nutrition the next.

Cheers,


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## Alan Fluxion (21 Apr 2014)

Bugger, we hada downpour last night, shame I didn't put the buckets out.

 thanks, I will end up doing the 80% water changes, I cant do 99% since the fish wont be too happy about it :\ but 80% I'm sure I can pull off.

Light is set to 6 hrs with 1 bulb 24watt H5, so that should be good according to the few threads I read.

Co2 circulation should be better n the future, I just got my tetratec running right, so my reactor should be up and running at the end of this week... I will keep both filters running simultaneously to get the bacteria back in my external filter...


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## Alan Fluxion (13 May 2014)

Update-

The tetratec let me down again, the water it was pumping out with the inline reactor was terrible, the water was not moving so I'll need to buy a inline pump and put it between the reactor and filter to get the flow going... maybe a 800L/h will suffice.

I did get the co2 running better in the aquarium, I have to say that my cascade filter works wonders, and if it wasn't for the fact that I have to clean it often (2 a week to get the water clean) I would say fec* the tetratec... 

Lighting is still the same, 6 hrs... from 15:00 when I get home to 21:00

My plants started looking healthy and growing again so I ended up getting a few more plants to fill in the gaps, a few days and the plants started growing nicely... but I seem to have a lack of something, the plant is supposed to be red but it's turning green... I added the other bulb and am now dosing EI according to the instructions... we'll see what happens...

I got a couple fish, one was a gift from my wife... A Betta.... Betta Super Black Half Moon Plakat, and Aplocheilus Lineatus and Corydoras habrosus... I gave the betta a few days to find his place in the aquarium and get it accustomed to the water/temp/quality and then added the other fish... but the betta doesn't like other fish and killed the Aplocheilus Lineatus... :\ shame, because I liked how they looked and swam around,... he doesn't seem to be attacking the other fish,  so I think I'll give him another week and try adding another fish, if he behaves I'll add more if not... out the window he will go... maybe not literally


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## Alan Fluxion (29 Jun 2014)

So, Friday I got my hands on a Aquael Nano Shrimp Tank 27L for 100zł (about 20 gbp) with filter, light and heater... all in good condition, used for 6mths  I figured this might be the right time to resolve a issue with my tank...

When I was starting my tank I made the mistake of being overconfident and put my soil down then mixed in fertilizer after which I read the instructions that it should be under the soil *facepalm* I tried cleaning up as much as I could but the damage was done... everytime I touched the soil I got a huge cloud of gray dust which then covered all my plants and fish and it probably had some negative side effects that I don't know... So I did a mini restart, I took some of the water from the 60L and poured it into the 27L and put the fish, shrimp and plants in the 27L, pulled out the soil and washed it a few times until the water was clear, cleaned up the glass and then put plant fertilizer (those sticks) and put down flower soil (pre washed) to cover up the fertilizer sticks, then a nice coat of my washed monado, made a hill and placed the rocks differenly... at the same time I got rid of the cascade filter... it looks like this ...





I decided that I'll plant most of the plants in one area and make it dense for the shrimp since they like those kinds of areas and the front to right will be a grassy area, one of the rocks has java moss on it, the other one will have something sooner or later...



 

I also have some new additions to the family since the last pictures...

I need to get some plants for the nano, it's very empty... I'll probably go with HC since its very low tech.


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## aliclarke86 (2 Jul 2014)

Hc likes lots of light and co2 try mc 

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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

MC?


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## aliclarke86 (2 Jul 2014)

hemianthus monte carlo

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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

I just looked, I don't think I'll find it in Poland, check some large sites with plants and they don't have monte carlo... unless its under a different name...

here's a auction site...

http://allegro.pl/listing/listing.php?string=hemianthus&search_scope=category-5337


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## aliclarke86 (2 Jul 2014)

Ah that's a bummer do you not have a tropica retailer? 

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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

not really, especially not the city I live in... look at my post above, thats all the stuff I can find in the hemianthus family... that site is like ebay but with some (online) stores


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## Vinkenoog1977 (2 Jul 2014)

It's often (correctly) sold as Micranthemum sp. Monte Carlo.


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

I just found what you said Micranthemum MC.... i found a different name for it... Elatine Hydropiper ? is this it?


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## Vinkenoog1977 (2 Jul 2014)

If it's from Tropica, it's the same exact plant as MC, but you need to be careful, since the REAL Elatine Hydropiper is a VERY difficult plant, while MC is one of the easier carpet plants to grow. There's some info given in George Farmer's One-Pot Iwagumi challenge journal: http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/georges-one-pot-iwagumi-challenge.29695/page-2#post-310862


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

It won't be from tropica, that I'm 100% sure of... I don't know if it's the real Elatine Hydropiper :\ but MC under the other name isn't available to purchase either

In that case, it seems MC will be difficult to obtain, is there any other similiar looking plant I can use for carpet? I admit Moss and Ricca look nice as carpeting, but will I need CO2 and a lot of light? I  want to limit both


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## Vinkenoog1977 (2 Jul 2014)

I almost can't imagine MC would be difficult to get a hold of, but TBH, most Micranthemum-species aren't that difficult to grow, especially if you dry start them, they will go mad, so both M. Micranthemoides and M. Umbrosum could work in those conditions. Another possibility would be Hairgrass (Eleocharis Acicularis), grows like mad, so does require weekly trimming, even without CO2 and with moderate lighting. You could also have a look at Staurogyne Repens, don't have any personal experience with it, but from what I understand, it can be grown quite well in low-tech. The smaller Cryptocoryne-species could also be an option, such as C. Parva and C. Pygmea.


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

I have Acicularis and parvular in the 60L and it's not growing mad, it's very pathetic....  I'll take a look at some of the others you mentioned and see what I like...

In poland some of the plants are hard to find without the latin name.... even with the latin name it can be hard... I technically live in a populous area but this city is pathetic when it comes to aquatics, there's 3 stores that have decent stuff, i got to know one of the owners and he buys 'specialty' items now because I've been nagging him.... and the other 2 I have no idea about because I've heard bad opinions.... then you have the big market stores that have rotting plants and dead fish in plastic cups that don't enough water to cover the fish... so finding plants without ordering online is pretty much out of the question...


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## Vinkenoog1977 (2 Jul 2014)

Parvula can be a nightmare to grow, at least in my experience, with the Acicularis, I've had zero problems, other than sometimes having to trim it twice a week. 

That sucks man, I have the same issues with most aquatic stores in my area, especially regarding plants, not too knowledgable, plants often melting in the store, et cetera. Thankfully, I've found a great online supplier (I checked, they don't send abroad, sorry), and they send the plants straight from the grower, so they arrive without ever being submersed, so less stress on the plants, which results in better growth and less melt. I now know when my LFS gets their plant shipments, so I make sure to be there when they arrive, so I can pick and choose before they are submersed there, again, better results.
This does not help you in your situation, I'm aware of that, but perhaps you might be able to find out who is the biggest supplier of aquatic plants in Poland, and perhaps contact them directly?


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

I might give acicularis anther try... I very much like how the plants look, and was hoping for a full carpet of parvula and acicularis... but when you buy acicularis there's a very big probability you'll get parvula... been there... unless you get it locally you can't be certain...

I've talked to my guy and he gets his plants from one of the "big suppliers" in-vitro plants... he gave me their info and I called them to find out that the invitro is purchased from abroad (thailand mainly) and shipped to them and they just distribute... that defeats the purpose, because by the time the client receives the plants they've already been in 3+ different climates, and you'll buy what seems like nice plants but they will be half dead a day after you buy them... at least that's my exp.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (2 Jul 2014)

Yeah, that's not going to work, you'd be better off with one of the European growers, such as Dennerle and Tropica.


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

exactly... and this is one of the major suppliers of invitro... I noticed that it's the same firm that plantagarden.pl uses and one other firm that I don't remember the name of...


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> I almost can't imagine MC would be difficult to get a hold of, but TBH, most Micranthemum-species aren't that difficult to grow, especially if you dry start them, they will go mad, so both M. Micranthemoides and M. Umbrosum could work in those conditions. Another possibility would be Hairgrass (Eleocharis Acicularis), grows like mad, so does require weekly trimming, even without CO2 and with moderate lighting. You could also have a look at Staurogyne Repens, don't have any personal experience with it, but from what I understand, it can be grown quite well in low-tech. The smaller Cryptocoryne-species could also be an option, such as C. Parva and C. Pygmea.


Cryptocoryne family doesn't seem like the carpet type I'm looking for...
Staurogyne Repens looks like a stem plant

I might actually give acicularis a try, but not put my hopes up...

I'll also look on some local website, maybe someone has some plants they might sell...


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## Mr. Teapot (2 Jul 2014)

Mix it up and create a nice meadow look - manicured monocultures are sooooo last year.


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

Meadow look? Example? I like the look of carpets... but am willing to try something new


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## Mr. Teapot (2 Jul 2014)

Look at this example from Dan Crawford - really lovely textures and a great natural feel.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/groundland-shallow-aquascape.26464/


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

ah, so by meadow look you're referring to different types of plants covering the ground "weed" look, etc... yes?

Maybe you've got a good idea there... there's a set of plants i can buy, about 20 different plants, some stem some not and theres 2 or 3 different carpet plants... I dig how HC and Parvula look, maybe I can make a combination in my 60L then move something to the 27L


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## Mr. Teapot (2 Jul 2014)

Yes sorry, I think it's officially called a mixed carpet... Far less poetic.


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## Alan Fluxion (2 Jul 2014)

lol! The more I think about it, the more I like the idea... better chance of having a full carpet if there are two different plants...


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## Vinkenoog1977 (2 Jul 2014)

I'm actually doing a mixed carpet myself now, in my Crimson Projekct, a mix of E. Acicularis, Micranthemum MC and some Pogostemon Helferi around the edges.


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## Alan Fluxion (3 Jul 2014)

I don't have much of an imagination... but that would be one thick carpet if it grows out properly... have a up to date picture?


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## Vinkenoog1977 (3 Jul 2014)

That's the idea, I really want a thick, lush carpet in this tank. Will take some updated pics this weekend, nothing to see at the moment, only 6 days since planting, so...


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## Alan Fluxion (3 Jul 2014)

I was looking at the date of the last post but couldn't find it... already have grass popping up :O  that's quick... took me 2 mmths before I saw any...

I'm quite intregued.... I just saw the banner to buy some fresh water shrimp... 2.50 gbp for 1 cherry shrimp... I pay 2.00 zl for 1 cherry shrimp...

2.50gbp = 12,5zl.... you guys overpay...


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## Lindy (3 Jul 2014)

We overpay for everything here!


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## Alan Fluxion (4 Jul 2014)

ya... but the price difference.... amazing... almost worth it ordering from here in bulk, sending via post


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## Alan Fluxion (7 Jul 2014)

So I seem to have a problem, and I've got no idea where..

CO2 is at lime green
dosing according to the EI parameters provided by Ceg
Doing 2 WC per week..
Flow seems pretty good, I have it going from back right corer to front left corner and the plants
move...
Temp. is at 23c

BUT

Plants are still melting (made sure to add some extra Potassium when creating the new batch of EI and something is killing off m shrimp... 5 in 1 day  any advice would be helpful... I turned down the co2 for now and am dosing a smaller dose of EI until I have some pointers what I should do


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## Edvet (7 Jul 2014)

I am sure Clive (Ceg) would point to CO2.
Which solution do you use in dropchecker? How large are wc?, Do you have a pH device so we could see a pH profile?


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## aliclarke86 (7 Jul 2014)

Where are the plants failing? Is it throughout the tank or in certain areas? 

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## Alan Fluxion (7 Jul 2014)

@Edvet
I use the JBL solution sold witht he JBL drop checkers




water changes mid week 50%, and then 90% in weekend (2 days free of EI), no ph device.
My fish are suffering if I add anymore CO2, so I cannot imagine it being not enough...

@ali
The plants are meltng everywhere, everything behind the rocks... but I can clearly see the leaves swaying and moving around.... so the circulation should be ok




Thanks for the quick response, I don't want my critters suffering, and it hurts every time I have to get rid of a dead one so any advice would be fantastic


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## Edvet (7 Jul 2014)

Not sure wether that dropchecker works wel, try to get some regular 4KH solution, i am sure someone will have plenty of that. Di you read the tutorial:http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-measurement-using-a-drop-checker.467/


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## Alan Fluxion (7 Jul 2014)

I'd hve to go sarching or order it, I have yet to see the solution in any store. The drop checker according to ceg works well, it comes with a diluted 4kh solution. I have rea it, and just looked through it breify just now.... I seem to be doing everthin crrectly  but imissing somehing


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## ceg4048 (7 Jul 2014)

If plants are melting and fish are suffering CO2 distress then that means any combination of distribution, timing and flow rate is the problem.

You do not need a pH pen to do a pH profile check. You already have a pH test via the reagent used in the DC.

A single point source filter outflow is a common hindrance to good flow distribution.

Lighting stress may also be an issue.

The only thing we can truly believe in our tanks is the condition of the plants. If they are suffering CO2 failure then we must believe them, despite what we would like to think.

Cheers,


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## Alan Fluxion (7 Jul 2014)

Ceg, would it make sense to leave the co2 off and EI for a week? I would rather lose all my plants then my fish and shrimp  What can I do? I turned down the co2 this morning and its light blue atm, the shrimp seem to have a black spot from what I've read can be caused by ammonia or stress... and the fish are swimming to the top of the water (I'm assuming gasping for air?) ...

I'm really hating this tetratec filter, all I have is problems.. I'll attach the aquael external filter to the tubingand see if things progres positively.


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## ceg4048 (7 Jul 2014)

Alan Fluxion said:


> Ceg, would it make sense to leave the co2 off and EI for a week?


No, that makes no sense at all. Why turn off CO2 when there is a CO2 shortage in the tank?
And did you turn the lights off as well? That is the root of your problems no doubt.

As I mentioned many times, just because you are adding CO2 it does not mean that you are adding it correctly. It's not enough to simply turn on a valve and to watch bubbles. It's much more complicated than that.

As Edvert suggested, you need to do a pH profile check prior to and throughout the photoperiod.
You definitely need to rework your filter outflow technique because that image in post #50 you provided looks terrible. You need to pay much more attention to flow/distribution and to understand why it is so critical. Check the thread http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/water-flow-in-the-planted-aquarium.1167/

If you find it too stressful to deal with CO2 then you might want to try a low tech approach, which will require less light, will generate slower growth, but will avoid the dangers of gassing the fish.

Cheers,


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## aliclarke86 (7 Jul 2014)

Spay bar! I love spray bars. I hate lily pipes.... Never can get the flow right with then

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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

My light is limited to 1 24w bulb at 5,5hrs/day which you recommended, always on at the same time and I do my water changes before the lights turn on. 

I turned up the co2 a bit, should be lime green, and added the external pump to get the water moving some more and adjusted it  to make ripples at the top but to hit against the glass and move everything downwards...

If you're referring to the bubbles on post #50, those are not the bubbles from the co2, that's from the water cahnge on the glass... if you look close to the opening of the hose, you'll see the tiny co2 bubbles from the canister and you can follow then... the bubbles literally hit the front left corner of the aquarium from the back left corner and then moves back...

I read some of the posts in the water flow thread, I will continue reading today, I would prefer doing spray bar but then would need a different solution for my co2 distribution... and will need to get a good spray bar and not the cheap black plastic:\ I will also read about the ph profile check.

Thanks for your help, if you have any other ideas let me know.


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

Where did you get those plants from?
If you got them recently from a shop or on-line.
They will have been grown emersed.....so you will have a transformation stage where some of the plants will melt and shed leaves.
Some plants adapt quicker and better than others...to underwater life.
So its pot luck at times depending on which species you purchased.

If your fish are suffering try more gas exchange at the surface...raise your outlet pipe.
You can always add more Co2 if the checker starts turning greenish/blue.
I would start with a Green drop checker for starters with 5 hours of lighting  for a few weeks till you see new leaf growth from the plants.
Your fauna will appreciate it....it may take longer to get the plants established but that's the route i would take if there is fish in the aquarium,and they are not comfortable with a lime green checker.
Cheers
hoggie


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

they were grown emersed from a "grower" (explained on page 2), but I've had them for some time now :\ they're not new just replanted because of a mistake I made.

Hoggie, I tried that, yesterda I started with minimal co2 and the dropchecker changed to light blue but the fish were still gasping... I left it overnight like this and this morning they seemed fine but another shrimp was on his back  so I'm not sure if they're gasping because of the CO2 or another fault... I added a bit more Co2 this morning and it should be darker lime green... I'll see when I get home


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

When did you add the fish to the aquarium?
Are they newly purchased from the local store?


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

Yes a gift from my wife (I don't think I'd ever buy fish on my own) they were bought from LFS ... 1 died before we got home, 1 floated up to the top the next day, but I assumed this was due to stress... they were added aprox. 2 weeks ago?


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

Hi Alan
The reason i ask is fish from LFS can suffer when you add them to a Co2 set-up.
They can take a long time to adjust to this sort of environment....at times.
Some fish are better than others at it....Cardinals/Neon Tetras seem to find it more stressful than other fish.
That's my observation over the years.....the LFS dont pump Co2 into their aquariums do they.
You get my drift.....i don't know what more to suggest regarding your fish...other than you  could always move them to a tank with a air stone to see if that improves their health for a few days.
Then try and re-introduce them again.
Cheers
hoggie


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

I get what you're saying, and I thought at first about this too... I got the fish "acclimated" to the tank.. or so I thought... I added some tank water the bag (a bit more each time) then put into a seperate tank for a bit... not just drop into the tank.... but the problem is the 2 older fish are also suffering ones that didn't really mind the co2 so much anymore. :\ I think you may be right... it's a shame it's summer, the mate that owns the shop here does co2 his tanks but he's got only a few fish otherwise she would have went there... my main reason why I thought CO2 was the cause was they dying off of the shrimp...[DOUBLEPOST=1404803276][/DOUBLEPOST]I was wondering, if Ammonia would cause these kinds of issues... the shrimp seem to have a black spot on them and I read it could either be ammonia spike or stress...


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

There could be many reasons why fish/shrimp die...Co2 stress could be one.
You could try a little experiment....take half of your fish out and put them in another non Co2 tank.
See what happens...
hoggie


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

A quote from Tom Barr
Well, DC have issues also, they tell you basically 3 very general things (not enough, hopefully just right and too much) and they are slow to respond.
I do not use them personally.

I use experience basically.
I start off low and then incrementally and progressively, but most importantly *patiently and slowly* add more and more CO2.
You can use the pH/KH chart to target that range, the chart will never underestimate the CO2, it will very often overestimate the CO2, so you will be lulled into thinking you have say 40ppm, when you might only have say 15ppm.
The reverse is never true: it will not suggest you have 15ppm, when you actually have 40ppm.
Unless you have a broke pH probe etc or made a mistake measuring etc.


I add more CO2 and wait 2-4 days and watch fish, plants etc.
I do not rush this process.

This way I can tell the response of fish, plants, and algae to only *slight changes in CO2 dosing.*
This is really useful, because I can easily add ferts consistently, and the PAR from the lights does not change except over years.

So this leaves CO2 changes as the main variable to keep an eye on.
Some species of fish, algae and plants are more responsive as well.

hoggie


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

Hoggie, that's exactly what I was thinking about yesterday, to put some of the fish and remainder of shrimp into the non co2 tank and see what happens, it's a small tank but at least they wouldn't be under co2 stress.

I'll do a water change and do as suggested in the quote, I will slowly add the co2 when I see that the fish are responding positively after a few days... but this is assuming that CO2 is the problem, what if the co2 is almost completely turned off and still have the same problem?

cheers for your input


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

Hi Alan
Although your drop checker reads as Blue you may have 29ppm Co2......this maybe too much for your fish at this moment in time.
When the colour changes to Green you will have 30ppm Co2....when it changes to yellow you will have more than 30ppm Co2.
As you see it could be around 28/29ppm  range of Co2 when the drop checker turns to Blue....which maybe stressing your inhabitants.
Just to add the census is that 25ppm and above of Co2 can cause stress in fish...not sure about shrimp.
Have you a rough idea what your ph is and KH?
hoggie[DOUBLEPOST=1404807387][/DOUBLEPOST]


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

straight out of the tap the ph is 7.7 (according to water works) now it's about 6.8~, KH out of the tap is 201-213CaCo3 Mg/L (not sure how to convert this) I have no idea what's in my aquarium I have no tests to check it as they're bloody expensive ... so with PH being 6.8 I'd need 19ppm to have 'ideal' concentration.... yes?


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

I think you divide it by 17.9....to get the figure.
Approx 12.
You should aim for 24ppm Co2 or slightly below for a few weeks...till your fish get acclimatised.
This should be enough to keep your plants healthy enough till you start increasing the Co2 to get your drop checker to turn Green this will be 30ppm.


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

so slowly turn up the co2? give them a couple days and then turn up some more? until I get to 24ppm leave for a few weeks and see if everything is happy?

Curious, How did you get the approx 12?


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

Yes Alan.
That's the way i would go....just needs patience at times.
Slowly is always best....when it comes to adding Co2.


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

Curious, How did you get the approx 12?


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## GHNelson (8 Jul 2014)

18 divide into 200/218 not exact but close enough.
Look at this image!


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## Alan Fluxion (8 Jul 2014)

Yours is a lot darker than mine... that's forest green, I was aiming at the 4-6 when you were saying Lime green.


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## Martin D (1 Aug 2014)

Great article and lots of good insight about CO2 delivery. I am here cause I have an issue and hoping someone can shed a light on it. Just recently set up a 220 gallon tank (72" L x 30" H x 24" D) for a friend. It has been a week since the setup and I am losing a lot of plants due to a major meltdown. I have been dosing EI since the following day of the tank setup regularly as advised and recommended for a tank my size. Both macro and micro nutrients has been dosed regularly for 5 days. When the tank was filled after the aquascape was done, it was filled with only cold water and all 3 lights turned. CO2 was pumped into the tank the next following day and has been set to turn on an hour before the light comes on. A photoperiod of 6 hours per day is used daily. A 50% water change was made on Day 5 and dosing of ferts commences as usual. I am dosing NPK & CSM+B for the past 6 days and today is day 7.


My drop checker solution was added into drop checker and tank water was used to measure the levels. I have never changed the solution in the drop checker since then and the PH has remained from solid green when the lights go on and turns to lime green by the end of the day.


From Day 3 I have been noticing some issues with the plants in the tank. My Java moss that has been used on top of the driftwood has turned brown. Anubias nana, java ferns, java ferns lace is melting and leaves turning yellow, green, has holes on it. Some plants that has been planted has been melting too like my Staurogyne Repens. Riccia Fluitans tied to rocks showed some signs of melting but now is slowly improving. Below is the list of plants that was planted into the tank:-



*1.  *Java Fern- Glued them down to the driftwood with crazy glue. ( Melting, turning black to brown on some leaves)


*2.  *Java Fern Lace – Glued them down to the driftwood with crazy glue. ( Completely turned to mush and was brown/black)


*3.  *Anubias Nana – Glued them down to the driftwood with crazy glue. ( Leaves showing signs of deficiency e.g. yellow coloration, dropping off, light green )


*4.  *Bacopa Caroliana - Planted into the substrate. ( Looks healthy)


*5.  *Hemianthus micranthemoides – Planted into the substrate. (Some stems have turned brown and has melted)


*6.  *HC Cuba – Planted into the substrate. ( Looks normal but not great either)


*7.  *Baby Tears Giant –Planted into the substrate. ( Looks normal but not great either)


*8.  *Taiwan Moss – Glued them down to the driftwood with crazy glue. (A little brown)


*9.  *Glossostigma Elatinoides – Planted into the substrate. ( Some leaves melted but I can notice some growth)


*10.  *Staurogyne repens – Planted into the substrate. ( Some has melted, some shows signs of growth)


11. Riccia Fluitans - Tied to rock slabs and scattered throughout the tank. ( Melted in the begining but slowing showing signs of growth on the rocks)


12. Java Moss - Attached to the top of the driftwood. (Turned brown on Day 3. Had to remove some portions and moved it into a low light tank. Some leaves are turning green slowly)


13. Pennywort - Planted into the substrate. ( The healthiest of all the plants. Nice bright green and looks awesome)


These are my specs for the tank:-



*Hardscape: *Driftwoods bought from Big Al's LFS


*Rocks:* Yamaya rocks and some random rocks found from rock quarries that has been aquascaped into the tank.


*Substrate:* NETLEA Brown Soil (5L) – 26 bags Mid Size Grain (Think of this as the Chinese version of the ADA Aquasoil and it has worked amazing for me in the past in my previous aquascapes. It has water buffering capabilities and maintains the PH at a steady PH of 6.6. )


Decoration White Sand (12KG）- 8 bags


*Substrate Base Additives:NETLEA BASE FERTILIZER 500ML - 4 units*


*Bacteria : Biozym - 2 bottles. ( Sprinkled at the bottom of the tank )*


*Lighting for high light high tech setup: 666 watts of lighting in total – 3 metal halide lighting unit with compact fluorescent. Each lighting unit has (150 Watts x 36 watts x 36 watts). These are suspended over a metal bar off the tank.*


*Filtration System: 2 Big Canister Filters with a 1350 GPH turnover rate together.*


*Co2 Setup – 10lb Co2 setup with solenoid valve, check valve, 4 in 1 diffuser with check valve. ( The CO2 is placed under the inflow of one of the filters and the outflow is placed beside the inflow and pointed down for CO2 distribution. A glass drop checker with a 4DKH solution is placed opposite of the tank to measure PH levels.*



*This is my dosing schedule:-*


*Day 1 *



*Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) : 2 tsp *


*Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2 PO4) : ¼ tsp x 3*


*Magnesium Sulphate: (MgSO4) : 5 ½ tsp*

*Day 2*



*CSM+B Trace : ¼ tsp x 3 *

*Day 3*



*Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) : 2 tsp *


*Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2 PO4) : ¼ tsp x 3*


*Magnesium Sulphate: (MgSO4) : 5 ½ tsp*

*Day 4*



*CSM+B Trace : ¼ tsp x 3 *

*Day 5*



*Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) : 2 tsp *


*Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2 PO4) : ¼ tsp x 3*


*Magnesium Sulphate: (MgSO4) : 5 ½ tsp*

*Day 6 & 7: REST*



So since the meltdown, I have reduced the lights turning on only the middle metal halide lighting unit with compact fluorescent and only the compact fluorescents turned on for the other 2 lights. The same photo period of 6 hours is being applied and it is Day 7 today.


I have acquired the plants from various sources and have no idea is they have been grown emmersed or submersed. There are no livestock in the tank as of yet until I figure out what is causing the melting of the plants.


If someone can shed some light I would be very grateful as I have gone through various forums and have not found a satisfactory answer from other fellow aquascapers hence wanting to post it here. I have been aquascaping for years and have had some great results but kinda stumped now seeing how I am unable to figure this situation out.

I have attached 2 videos of the tank setup below.






*Thanks!*


*Martin.*


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## Edvet (1 Aug 2014)

At first glance it looks lika a whole lot of Mg.
Could you do a pH profile?


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## Martin D (1 Aug 2014)

Ph is stable at 6.8 Edvet.


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## foxfish (1 Aug 2014)

If it is stable you must be using a PH controller, or use 24 7 C02?


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## Martin D (1 Aug 2014)

Well what I meant by stable is that the substrate has ph buffering capabilities and has been at 6.8 since the day it was set up. The substrate maintains the water's PH around 6.6-6.8.[DOUBLEPOST=1406919642][/DOUBLEPOST]And no, CO2 is only turned on for an hour before the lights come on and turned off an hour before the lights go out. I am on a 6 hour photo period.


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## foxfish (1 Aug 2014)

So why do you think that the injected C02 does not drop the PH?


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## Martin D (1 Aug 2014)

?


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## Edvet (2 Aug 2014)

foxfish said:


> So why do you think that the injected C02 does not drop the PH?


Agreed, either you just do to little CO2, or metering is wrong. \I asked for a pH profile because i (and a lot of others here) believe it's the best way to see wether you are injecting enough CO2. Just take a measurement every hour. You should see a good drop (depending on your GH) of 05, 1 or even 2 full points  (at low GH) which tells you you are getting plenty CO2 in the tank. DON'T worry abourt the pH drop, this will never harm your fish, because it's a "weak acid"reaction.
The problems you have could very well be all due to insuficient CO2.


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## Alan Fluxion (1 Sep 2014)

Hey all... so long time no post.

My plants started to grow normally, then the CO2 started running out too fast so  I changed the 60L to low tech and make the 25L high tech and all was well... plants and fish in both were happy, were being the key word. I got an offer for a job in a different city and I decided to take it, unfortunately the new place will not have a place for me to have the 60L so I had to sell everything off, it sucks but not much can be done. I sold the fish already (saved a couple and placed them with the beta) and my shrimp, took some of the plants and replanted them in the 60L. Now I need to sell everything else... maybe one day I'll have the opportunity to put up another 60L and do it the right way this time.


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