# Liseys Rio 125



## Lisa_Perry75 (24 Mar 2008)

So finally got all the bits together for a high-tech tank!

Rio 125 - 125 litres roughly there was no lighting unit so I had to bodge one. It may last, it doesn't look as great as I hoped.

Lighting - 2 x 36 W power compact T5 with reflectors bulbs are a 954 from Lamp specs and an interpet triplus. I have a spare 865 but atm the lamps are yellowy and pinky and both quite bright. Lighting period 10 hours.

Filtration - Tetratec EX1200 rated 10x and is damn powerful! Amusing the supplied spraybar yet took a while to find a direction that wasn't blowing around the substrate and plants.

Dosing - Ei plus Mg and Fe (must really look up how much for my tank as I've been doing v. small pinches of each for 3 days now.

CO2 - D&D kit trying to get the drop checker to sit at yellowy but slowly building up. Weird but today I went up to my room and it had stopped but drop checker still green. Using 4 dkh solution from AE with JBL permanent test kit. Used 1.5 mls of water and 3 drops of reagent. Am using the diffuser Chrisi gave me, looks really good so cheers for that!

Plants
Bacopa monneri
Bacopa caroliana
Cryptocoryne Undulata (broad leaf)
Cryptocoryne wenditii
Vallis torta
Hygrophila corymbosa siamensis 53B
Eleocharis parvula
Eleocharis vivipara
Marsilea hirsuta
Nymphaea Zenkeri lotus
Limnobium Laevigatium

No pics yet. Am too scared to show all of you! The plants I received from Java and Greenline weren't the best specimens, coupled with not being in the best conditions until I planted means alot are yellow. I'm dosing flourish excel as a precaution. I'm worried about the degredation leading to ammonia release and algal bloom. I have taken a pic of it but I think I may wait a week for the plants to green up a bit... Take another pic then and show the difference! There isn't much of a scape going on really. Just plants planted with a few mini landscape rocks.


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## Denis C. (24 Mar 2008)

What did you use to keep the T5's suspended above the tank, given that you didn't have a hood to work with, or is it only the Rio 180's and above that use the light bar as the support for the access flaps front and back? 

Nice selection of plants too and I really like Cryptocoryne wendtii when planted in bunches. Lookinf forward to seeing some pictures. 

Regards

Denis


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## Lisa_Perry75 (24 Mar 2008)

I bought an offcut of MDF with wood effect top and slight waterproof bottom. I spraypainted the top and edges matt black. Got given a satin white to spray the bottom with. I screwed the reflector and clips into the board et voila. A very non waterproof solution which looks rubbish and has limited life useage. But hey what else am I to do.


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## Denis C. (24 Mar 2008)

They say necessity is the mother of all invention, if it works (and isn't hazardous to your health) then I don't see why you need to fix it or replace it.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (25 Mar 2008)

Got two thin offcuts and screwed them together, got them for Â£1 together  And definately, when it fails I'll do something else. By that time I will buy some marine ply or something...


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## ceg4048 (25 Mar 2008)

Hi Lisa,
            Refer to the EI dry powder article. 125l=33USG therefore multiply the 20USG reference values by 33/20 or, 1.7. You'll get numbers like 3/8 tsp KNO3, 3/32 tsp KH2PO4, 1 tsp MgSO4 1/8 tsp CSM+B (or 6ml TPN). I know it's frustrating when the plants are not in the best condition when they arrive, but really, you mustn't fret too much. EI + CO2 should see them through. 

Look at these comparative photos of Limnophilia aromatica which arrived from Asia in August in very poor condition. The two stems are shown in the back, behind the moss plate. The second photo shows what they became within 2-3 months and I was sending stems to other folks.


 

 


You can go from rags to riches with proper dosing and CO2. It will just take a little longer than if they were in perfect condition. If this is a newly setup tank then your enemy will not be the plants condition so much as the nitrogen cycle which will dump massive amounts of ammonia into the water column due to low bacteria count. You'll need to do frequent water changes for the first 6-8 weeks, 2X or 3X per week if you can manage. This lowers the NH4 concentration. This NH4 due to cycling is the only thing to worry about if you are dosing nutrient/CO2 correctly. As the plants become stronger and more efficient they will feed on NH4 as well. Also, do yourself a favor and have one light on for something like the first 4 hours and then turn the second lamp on for the duration of the photoperiod. This reduces your exposure to NH4 + high light, a wicked combination.

If your tank has a canopy then it will retain a certain amount of CO2 concentration overnight. The dropchecker is very slow to respond but it's the best tool we have for the price. It will take a few hours to go from green to yellow so you want to turn the gas on at least an hour before lights on. Review the CO2 injection/measurement article in the Cookbook section for a more detailed explanation. You can buy a tool that measures CO2 which only takes 10 minutes and is super accurate but I think it costs Â£7000   

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (25 Mar 2008)

Hi Lisa,

It all sounds really rather good  dont worry about the scape for the time being, it's taken me 2 years to get EI figured out and I'm only now working on the scaping side of things.  Best to get used to growing healthy plants first, you cant have a scape without those! 

Re the fert dosing, could you not make up stock solutions of each and dose those?  It's more accurate (not that we need to be ultra accurate) than dry ferts I find and is very simple once you work it out.  I can give you the calculations if you want?

Sam


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## Lisa_Perry75 (25 Mar 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my thread   

Ceg - I didn't think about cycling as I haven't put in fish! How dim of me. I have a solenoid but have been running CO2 constantly. I was going to run the CO2 into the limeadey yellow region until I think I'm out of the woods. I thought constant CO2 would lead to stable CO2 levels while I'm in a dodgy position. I feel like I'm on a seesaw and I'm desperately trying to gain weight my end but any second algae may just come slamming down like a sumo wrestler on the other. Thanks for showing me the before and after, I was mainly worried as I have planted lots of crypts and they aren't exactly well known for their fast growing nature. 

Sam - Cheers! Yes I thought growing the plants healthy was more important. I was going to make up stock solutions, I haven't had access to DI water though. I suppose tap water is ok as a substitute? Yes please if you could send me the link to the calculator one more time please! (sorry sorry sorry for being a pain in the bum). I try to search for it but it takes ages with the flood control thing.


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## Themuleous (25 Mar 2008)

If you can I would use DI or RO water, so you know exactly what you are adding with each dose.  You dont need much so you could always gets some DI water from a petrol station (use in car radiators I think).

Your best bet re making the stock solutions it to download the calculator from Chuck here

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm

I would try and get your head around it as well, but just to give you something to work off, I'll outlined below the calculation for KNO3.

Add 204g of KNO3 to 500ml of DI/RO water
Adding 1ml of this solution to a tank of 125lt raises the tank NO3 level by 2ppm
Therefore, adding 10ml of the solution raises the tank NO3 by 20ppm.

I hope that helps.

Sam


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## Arana (25 Mar 2008)

Tesco do 2.5l of DI water for less than Â£2  in the car care section


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## ceg4048 (25 Mar 2008)

Lisa/Sam,
                Just to be clear, lets remember the principle of EI as discussed in the article. We don't need to be exact about the dosing. Far from it. We only need to ensure that we have at least some minimum concentration level. There is no problem in having more than the minimum. With this in mind you'll see that using DI is totally unneccessary and only serves to complicate your life.

For the present intent, _who cares_ about the phosphate and nitrate levels in your tap water? You know how much you are dosing. You know that this dosing level will ensure that your plants will not suffer a nutrient deficiency. If the tap adds extra nutrients then so much the better. The extra nutrients in the tap water will not increase the chances of inducing algae one iota because nutrients don't cause algae.

Do yourself a favor and forget about using DI/RO water in your dosing mixture. It simply doesn't matter.

Regarding CO2; Yes, 24/7 injection rate is more stable and is certainly easier. No doubt about that. However, stable CO2 is only relevant during the photo period. Neither plants nor algae care about CO2 at night. They both use oxygen during this time.  When you do add fish however CO2 at night is a potential problem especially during early morning, when O2  is low  (because all inhabitants consume it throughout the night) and CO2 high due to the injection all night. This can be a bad combination for fish.

Stable CO2 is only relevant during the photoperiod. CO2 and light work similar to "lock and key". When the light goes on it produces a certain amount of energy. To  use this energy effectively the plant requires a certain amount of CO2.

If the CO2 concentration level is high when the light goes on the plants are efficiently able to stop using O2 and transition to CO2 consumption. If the CO2 level is low when lights go on the plants struggle. The key to CO2 is to have very high levels at lights on and to maintain this level through the photo period. To keep from poisoning the fish you can shut off the CO2 a few hours before lights off. CO2 is not as important near the end of the day. Stability therefore can be described as a simple concentration profile where it is very high at lights on, stays high for a few hours, and then is slowly lowered as the end of the photo period approaches. When this pattern is repeated on a daily basis this counts as stable. Instability would be characterized by fluctuating levels throughout the day - high, low, high, low, or high one day then low the next then high the next and so forth.

The solenoid allows you turn on the gas an hour or two before the lights come on.  You can then set a much higher injection rate to boost the CO2 level to high values during that hour or two before lights on. Because the injection rate is high you don't want to run that rate all day otherwise it becomes toxic. I run my CO2 for only 6 1/2 hours a day. The gas comes on 2 hours before max lighting (1 hour before 30% of max lighting). The gas goes off 5 hours before lights off. There is enough concentration level to last the remainder of the photoperiod and the fish are given a break overnight. I don't have to worry about adding an airstone or anything like that.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (25 Mar 2008)

I didn't think it would matter about the phosphate/nitrate in the tap water I mean adding say 10 mls is not going to make a difference to the 125 litres of the stuff in the tank. I just wasn't sure if there was a reason I couldn't use it for the stock solution like say the high levels of salts present would cause the ferts to precipitate out.

Re CO2 - thats a good idea, thanks for the info. I thought stable CO2 meant CO2 concentration needs to be like 30 ppm 24/7.


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## Themuleous (25 Mar 2008)

I fully agree re the use of tap water, however for me, and you can call me ultra picky, but I likely to know whats going into my tank.  I like to know that the level of N or P or whatever is OK, so I like to make accurate solutions and dose accurately to the tank.  But I fully appreciate that this is just me  others may be willing to be more 'free' with the additions, but I'm to organised and fussy to do that! I also get a certain satisfaction from making the solutions and getting the scales out, sad I know but thats the way I am!

The method you suggest would be more suited to my wife, who's far less 'tidy' with these kind of things.  It makes her laugh sometimes just how a*al I can be!  (sorry for the rude word but it sums me up perfectly!)

Your comments re the CO2 are interesting, Ive not heard of turning the co2 off several hours before the lights, worth remembering.  I like to run my co2 24/7 purely as it means I have one less plug on my already overloads extension lead and it also cuts out the potential for the solenoid to go wrong.  Unlikely I know but I have found that (as you say) stability is very important with co2, so I chose not to risk it with a solenoid.  The fish dont seem to mind 

I might however change my mind when I start having to buy a FE each month for my 4ft due to the wastage!! 

Sam


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## ceg4048 (25 Mar 2008)

Hi Sam,
            Yes, exactly, that's the other side benefit to the solenoid is that it helps you to stretch the CO2 supply. Fundamentally though it allows you to drive to much higher concentration level than would be feasible running 24/7. CO2 in the morning is much more important than in the afternoon. If your tank has a canopy it retains CO2 much better than an open tank so the loss of concentration is much less.

Regarding the dosage preparation, some people like to fiddle with various aspects and that's fine. The problem is that the more complicated a procedure, the more likely that the average person will lose interest in doing it as it becomes drudgery. If it takes you an extra 15 or 20 minutes for collection in order to prepare a solution using RI/DO  I reckon that's 15 or 20 minutes less I have to sit and look at my tank with a glass of Pinot Grigio in hand. Those 15 or 20 extra minutes don't earn me anything - it would be a different story if they did. If there is no value added to testing or to using special water or whatever then I delete the procedure from my inventory of tasks. This allows more time for actual enjoyment of the tank or more time for tasks that are more interesting or imperative. I always strive to simplify my tank keeping as much as possible. I only ever make it more complicated when the complication results in better plant growth, better aesthetics or better tank health.

Cheers,


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## John Starkey (25 Mar 2008)

H.i Lisa,nice start to your journal, i cant wait to see all those plants i sent you planted and growing well, dont make us wait too long for pics take care john


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## Lisa_Perry75 (26 Mar 2008)

Well I thought I would post some pictures...
John the last lot of P. helferi was pretty melted so I took it out.

Well this is it before planting, with the wood...




And this is how it looks as of yesterday




And close up of the left...




...middle...




...right




Well please don't be too harsh!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (27 Mar 2008)

Is it really that bad no-one will comment?


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## ulster exile (27 Mar 2008)

I think it is lovely - a tank I'd be proud to have and watch grow in myself   But not being one of the experts on here, I have little constructive comments to make so me thinking it looks nice isn't much use to you


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## Fred Dulley (27 Mar 2008)

I think it looks great!
Should look really nice when it's all filled in.
Did you say what substrate that was?


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## Arana (27 Mar 2008)

Looks great Lisa   But where did the wood go?


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## Steve Smith (27 Mar 2008)

Arana said:
			
		

> Looks great Lisa   But where did the wood go?



I was just wondering that too 

Looking good!  Will look even better when it's bushed out!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (27 Mar 2008)

Oh phew thanks! I was starting to think everyone thought it was really bad as no-one had replied.

The substrate is Aquaground clay or aquaclay ground. Personally I wouldn't choose it again. The grain size is too big really. Trying to plant hairgrass is a b-i-t-c-h.

Thanks for the replies!!!


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## ceg4048 (27 Mar 2008)

Hi Lisa,
             I agree with Chrisi. The growing of the plants where the challenge is at this point. You'll probably change your mind 20 times in the next couple of months. The arrangement is nice but that rocks on the right will soon get swallowed so I would have put more prominent rocks in that location. That black tube is also a bit distracting so I'd opt to mount it on the back wall if possible. I'm not a hairgrass person but aren't you supposed to cut it back down to the substrate when planting from emersed? Need to get clarification on that. I'd also probably mount the spraybar on the back glass as well. That ought to help the grass.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (27 Mar 2008)

The wood was way too big for the tank plus it wouldn't sink AND it started growing mould. In a rio 180 the proportions would be perfect but the wood poked out the top and touched the front of the glass.

Ceg - cheers yeah I realise about the rocks and the arrangements for now. The black tube is the heater, and I will mount it on the back wall, so it will be hidden by the plants.
I did trim the hairgrass but I was too scared to trim it too much, especially as the rootstock was iffy and it wouldn't stay in the substrate.
The spraybar is placed just so the flow goes over the top of the plants at the back round by the inlet (picking up stray CO2 bubbles) and round the front near the bottom. May seem like the hairgrass is getting blown down but I'm hoping when it grows in it will be better and stand up. 10x filter rating does make for a breezy tank. This was the only way I could get it to not blow the substrate around.


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## TDI-line (28 Mar 2008)

Looking good Lisa.


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## Themuleous (28 Mar 2008)

Quality Lisa, decent load of plants in there too  should fill out nicely.

Sam


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## beeky (28 Mar 2008)

That's really nice - very clean and should look very 'dutch' when it's all filed in.

Any chance of a planting plan? My plant id skills are pants! Could you get a close up of the Marsilea? I don't really know that it looks like!

Cheers. You shouldn't have been so coy - you've done a good job.


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## GreenNeedle (28 Mar 2008)

5 Ltr container of DI is Â£2.99 in Boyes.  This is what I got for doing my 40dKH before diluting from another 1 Ltr DI.

Of course then I used some of the remainder of the 5Ltrs to make my fert solutions when needed rather than store it for the next.........250 years <----Not far off!!!

Andy


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## Lisa_Perry75 (28 Mar 2008)

Cheers for all the replies guys!

Beeky - Thanks for your compliments     the Marsilea is like this:-




This is the emersed growth but the leaves grow differently underwater. I was hoping the 4-leaf clover style of leaves would stay for a little longer. I will get another picture of that clump tomorrow so you can see the difference.

After two days away its crazy! Loads has grown, will get a pic tomorrow for comparison. I was away back in my home town visiting my cousin as she had a baby 5 weeks premature. His name is Charlie btw, and is a tiny 5 lb 14 oz.


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## ulster exile (29 Mar 2008)

So what are you doing with the wood, if you don't mind me asking?


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## mindscape100 (29 Mar 2008)

Yeah really love the setup. As mentioned, when you get some more growth in there things will look even better. How you finding the substrate, Im using the same stuff in my tank at the moment. I was worried as when I first filled the tank it went really cloudy even after rinsing, but it settles down really well. Only had the plants in for a couple of days so Im yet to notices any improvements. 
Again good work with th setup.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (29 Mar 2008)

Thanks for the replies! Compliments are very kind, don't feel I deserve them just yet   

The wood is soaking atm I'm hoping in the future I'll be able to use it.


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## LondonDragon (29 Mar 2008)

So far soo good  Since we have the same tank it will be interesting to see how it develops.
Also would be nice to see the wood in the scape when its ready, some very nice pieces there.
Keep us updated and good luck


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## Lisa_Perry75 (29 Mar 2008)

The wood is all one piece. Called "swamp wood" according to my LFS.

Yeah it will be interesting especially as the king himself uses a rio 125. I'm sure yours is and will be better than mine  8)  If I can get to growing plants and scaping one quarter as good as George I will be a very happy girly!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (29 Mar 2008)

I made a planting guide.




1) Cryptocoryne Undulata (broad leaf)
2) Cryptocoryne wenditii
3) Eleocharis vivipara
4) Eleocharis parvula
5) Bacopa caroliana
6) Bacopa monneri
7) Java moss (probably)
8) Nymphaea Zenkeri lotus to the bottom right, the top left you can see the leaves of a "tiger lotus lilly" from Java.
9) Hygrophila corymbosa siamensis 53B
10) Vallis torta


Not numbered is Limnobium Laevigatium which is floating on the top and Marsilea crenata which is dotted around in the hairgrass.

John Starkey very kindly sent me bags and bags of plants so it will all change. Just waiting for the guy buying my tank to turn up then I'm re-doing it   Thanks again John!


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## Steve Smith (29 Mar 2008)

Cool, I wish more would do the numbered pic, I usually have to image search all the names of plants on a scape I like to figure out whats what but this makes it nice and easy...


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## John Starkey (29 Mar 2008)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> I made a planting guide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Lisa, its looking very nice but now you have all those plants i sent its back to the drawing board    but the more you plant and plant the better you will become, i am only too happy to help members any way i can, take care john .oh dont foreget pics of the new scape.


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## Arana (29 Mar 2008)

Looking very nice lisa, i'm sure it will grow in very well and soon be a jungle  

Love the planting guide too


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## Lisa_Perry75 (29 Mar 2008)

Thanks everyone!

Steve - thats ok, someone suggested it and it was a good idea. It is handy for plant ids. I don't have fancy art packages, that was knocked up in paint.

John - As always I'm very grateful for your generosity. I've just eaten tea and now I'm heading up the wooden hill to do a 50% waterchange and replant...

Pictures to follow


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## beeky (29 Mar 2008)

Ah, well now you have something to live up to!

By the way, I've just been reading up on Marsilea and somewhere it mentioned that the leaves should be cut off as they'll never adapt to life underwater. New leaves will then form. I'm not sure if I'd have the courage to do that to a plant I'd just bought though!!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (31 Mar 2008)

Yeah most died, I had to cut them off anyway. TBH they have these little tuber type things that are at the top of the roots just below the stems so I think it would be fine.

RIght so I completely ripped out everything and started again. Did a 75% waterchange. Realised HC is a b@$%h! I couldn't find much roots compared to all the leaves so I tried planting it but it kept floating... So I improvised, as you'll see! Planted all the plants John sent me, now most of the plants from online suppliers are gone. The only ones remaining are the Bacopa caroliana and Marseila crenata from Greenline, Vallis torta from Java and Crypto wenditii from both.

Full tank shot





Left




Middle




Right




Planting Guide




1) Limnophila aquatica - from John (Tropica origin)
2) Cryptocoryne wenditii - From Java/Greenline (variety not specified)
3) Marseila crenata - From Greenline. this is dotted around the back of the P. helferi but its so small its hard to see.
4) Pogostemon helferi - From John (Tropica origin). I really love this plant and there was so much I planted it very densely. When it starts taking off I will thin it out.
5) HC - from JamesC. yeah I just plonked it in the corner and weighed it down with substrate until it takes hold. eventually when the P. helferi is thinner I will plant HC around it.
6) Bacopa monneri - from P@H (Tropica)
7) Eleocharis parvula - from MA and AE (Tropica) all the stuff from Java and Greenline was a bit brown, it was picking up a tiny bit, but I was worried about the decay.
8 ) Blyxa? - from JamesC this stuff looks really good!
9) Nymphaea Zenkeri Lotus - from MA (Tropica). this has been sending out loads of leaves.
10) Bacopa Caroliana - from Greenline
11) Hygrophila siamensis corymbosa 53B - P@H (Tropica)
12) Cryptocoryne undulata (maybe broad leaves) - from P@H (tropica)
13) "African tiger lotus" - from Java. this was looking iffy but has sent out a new leaf nd roots so I thought I'd give it a go.
14) Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig' - from John (Tropica). This maybe bunched over at the moment I think it will grow up quickly.
15) Vallis torta - from Java

Thanks for reading this    hope you like the changes

Edit:- forgot that frogbit aka Limnobium laevigatum is floating on the surface though growing slowly


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## LondonDragon (31 Mar 2008)

Looking good  I like the Pogostemon helferi, never tried that plant but it does look very good.
Now you have to wait before you do any more changes to allow it to grow in and then decide if you want to move stuff about 
Congrats on the hard work  and keep us posted with more photos


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## aaronnorth (31 Mar 2008)

i like the 2nd scape better, looks more lush.


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## Themuleous (2 Apr 2008)

Like the new scape 

Sam


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## Lisa_Perry75 (2 Apr 2008)

Cheers guys   

CO2 has crept up to yellow, but I've stopped dosing excel as the vallis is not happy, nor is the P. helferi. Does anyone know if its sensitive? The blyxa is melting, and the hygro siamensis has damage to the leaves. Not sure whats going on!
Apart from the P. helferi everything else seems to have grown. I can see the P. helferi sending roots out though.


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## ceg4048 (3 Apr 2008)

Hi Lisa,
            P. helferi, like most carpet plants are slow to establish. Blyxa is also a very slow plant to adapt. They usually recover within a couple weeks to a month. You are dosing NPK and micros right? The conversion from emersed to submerged growth is traumatic so there is normally some loss of plant material because those emersed leaves no longer serve the plant as efficiently. As new submerged growth appears the plant will become healthier. If you are seeing root growth then there is no need for concern. I'm not a Vallis guy but I've read reports of Vallis recuperating from normal excel dosing after some loss, but not liking overdoses.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (3 Apr 2008)

Thanks cegipedia    The blyxa and P. helferi has new growth now  took some pics but am supposed to be doing my coursework which is due in at 8:45am tomorrow    so will get back to that now.


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## John Starkey (3 Apr 2008)

Hi Lisey, i really like the redo, all those plants have given it a new dimension, when it really gets going you will be busy pruning i can assure you good work, regards john.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (10 Apr 2008)

Two words - Algae City!!!

Forgot my waterchange at the weekend as I was too busy livin' it up like. Left dosing in my fiances hands... All I know is I came back and he's fiddled with my CO2 naughty boy...
Now I have long brown stringy algae, maaaaasses of coursework! I know I need to do manual removal, daily waterchanges and excel dosing. Stick to my dosing regimently not just pinch of everything. Bought some more flying foxes and amano shrimps as the CO2 was pretty stable before, was hoping I could move across some. My small tank is just that, and bursting at the dam seams.

Must.... resist....urge....to....add.....new.....flying.....foxes....nerites.....and.....shrimps....


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## TDI-line (11 Apr 2008)

Your posts do make me laugh Lisa. Very funny.


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## Steve Smith (11 Apr 2008)

Looking good lisa   Will look even better when you get some growth and height in there   Wish mine was looking this good!

How are you finding the PC lights?  If its any use, I have that Arcadia I-bar spare if you want to trade it or something, PM me if you think it'd be useful


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## Themuleous (11 Apr 2008)

Doh! Naughty boy!


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## ceg4048 (11 Apr 2008)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> Two words - Algae City!!!
> 
> Forgot my waterchange at the weekend as I was too busy livin' it up like. Left dosing in my fiances hands... All I know is I came back and he's fiddled with my CO2 naughty boy...
> Now I have long brown stringy algae, maaaaasses of coursework! I know I need to do manual removal, daily waterchanges and excel dosing. Stick to my dosing regimently not just pinch of everything. Bought some more flying foxes and amano shrimps as the CO2 was pretty stable before, was hoping I could move across some. My small tank is just that, and bursting at the dam seams.
> ...



Lisa,
       Crank open the needle valve of your CO2 regulator and leave it there. Slap anyone who touches it. The minute you add fish your situation will become dire because you will be forced to limit CO2. Right now you have the ability to fix your problem by providing unlimited CO2. 

DON'T.....BLOW......YOUR.....OPPORTUNITY.....ADD.....MORE.....CO2...

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (19 Apr 2008)

Tank still a mess, Uni really busy... Will update when anthing gets better


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## Lisa_Perry75 (19 Apr 2008)

Had issues making a stock solution so thought I would report my findings. I used both chemical formulae and proper names for people who struggle with the naming system. I try to make this as easy to follow as possible but if you don't get it or if I've done something wrong please feel free to comment on this.

From Tom Barrs website he says we should aim for the following 'concentrations' of the following per week:-
NO3 (Nitrate from KNO3) range 5-30ppm
K+ (Pottasium from K2SO4) range 10-30ppm
PO4 (Phosphate from KH2PO4) range 1.0-3.0 ppm
And from Cegipedias (the name will stick dammit) Dry salt dosing article Mg (Magnesium from MgSO4) 10 ppm

I assumed the top end of each mentioned Fert, and also assumed K was only provided from K2SO4) so this meant adding the following per week:-

NO3 - 30ppm
K - 30ppm
PO4 - 3.0 ppm
Mg - 10 ppm

After some research I found ppm means mg/kg or mg/litre in this case as 1 litre = 1 kg.

So the amount you would have to add per week per one litre of water is:-
NO3 - 30 mg (or 0.03g)
K - 30 mg (or 0.03g)
PO4 - 3.0 mg (or 0.003g)
Mg - 10 mg (or 0.01g)

Now I thought making up 10 weeks worth of solution is an easy amount to work with so here is how much I would need for 10 weeks for one litre still. I have now changed to GRAMS as opposed to milligrams. Okay so how much you need to add is just these amounts X by the amount of litres in your tank.
NO3 - 0.3g
K - 0.3g
PO4 - 0.03g
Mg - 0.1g

In my case this is 125 litres so I would need this much:-
NO3 - 37.5g
K - 37.5g
PO4 - 3.75g
Mg - 12.5g

Now how much to dissolve all this in? I think 500mls may not be enough to make everything dissolve, but I shall try on Monday and report back.

So to work out how much you need to add per dose, well, there are 3 doses per week and 10 weeks of doses so divide the amount you dissolve the traces in (maybe 500) by 30 = 16.6 mls. As I'm sure its not possible for the average person to measure to this accuracy I would add 17 mls.

I hope this info helps someone else and hasn't been too difficult to follow.


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## Steve Smith (19 Apr 2008)

Thanks so much for the info Lisa.  I've been scratching my head over this for a few weeks.  This will be useful for my smaller tanks where measuring out 3/16ths is a bit awkward.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (19 Apr 2008)

Thats ok, I am the same like, how much is 1/16th like? I know the whole Estimative thing means I don't need to worry too much but I prefer to measure just one thing (the mls every other day)... It's going to save me a little bit of time, but the thing is it'll make me more likely to do it... Which is why I would do this


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## ceg4048 (19 Apr 2008)

Lisa,
        It seems to me the idea is to simplify life instead of making it more complicated. I've had a review of your data and I find that there are several assumptions and calculations that have fallen off the rails a bit. In the dry dosing article a calculation was presented for a 4 week supply of solution using a 600ml solution of water to be dosed in a 20 USgallon tank. All you needed to do was to multiply the dosages by 3/2 because you have a 30USG tank. If you then wanted to make a 10 week supply instead of a 4 week supply then make a second adjustment by multiplying by 10/4. If you are making up a 10 week supply then you no longer have to worry about what 1/16th teaspoon is because the volumes are now larger so I don't see a need to start measuring grams.

Additionally, to assume that K is only provided by K2SO4 is not only incorrect, but completely wasteful as it unnecessarily adds another powder which you don't need at all. Dosing KNO3 provides more than enough K. On top of that you are also dosing KH2PO4 which also adds K so there is absolutely no reason at all to buy K2SO4. I can only guess that you may have access to some other nitrate or phosphate source that is something other than potassium nitrate or potassium phosphate. This is the only conceivable reason for using K2SO4 as your potassium source.

This assumption perhaps leads to the next misstep in that each salt contains two components - the metal cation as well as the anion therefore you cannot simply add 30mg of KNO3 to a liter of water to generate 30ppm of NO3. Some of that 30mg of powder is K, not NO3 so you have to add more than 30mg of the powder to the water to get 30ppm of NO3. In fact you have to multiply by the ratio of the molecular weights of K and NO3. Therefore in order to get 30ppm of NO3 in 1 liter of water by adding KNO3 you need to add 57mg of KNO3 to 1 liter of water, not 30mg. Likewise, in order to get 3ppm PO4 concentration in 1 liter of water using KH2PO4 you need to add 11mg of KH2PO4 not 3mg.

This is the main problem with doing calculations in mg. You have to take into account the atomic and molecular weights. This makes life much more complicated and confusing. Now, probably you could have gotten by with the numbers that you were using but it would be due to sheer luck. If you did have deficiency problems (PO4 deficiency would have been a real possibility) you would never realize it and that would complicate life even more. That's why I laid it all out in the dosing article. Lets redo the calculation using the baseline numbers in the article. I'm using a target NO3 concentration of 20ppm not 30ppm as you have. There is no need to use 30ppm unless you see deficiency.

A 20USG tank gets 3X per week [3/16 teaspoon KNO3] + [1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [Â½ teaspoon MgSO4]
Your tank is 1.5 times bigger so just multiply by 3/2 and round to the easiest fraction:
A 30USG tank would get 3X per week [3/8 teaspoon KNO3] + [3/32 teaspoon KH2PO4] + [3/4 teaspoon MgSO4]
For a one weeks supply multiply by 3:
1 1/8 teaspoon KNO3 + 9/32 teaspoon KH2PO4 + 2 1/4 teaspoon MgSO4
For a ten week supply just multiply by 10.
11 teaspoon KNO3 + 3 teaspoon KH2PO4 + 21 teaspoon MgSO4
Again, I just rounded or truncated the fractions to get nice easy numbers. It's no big deal. So what is difficult about measuring out 11 teaspoons? Isn't that easier than jumping through hoops with mental gymnastics?

Also why use weird water volumes so that your dosing turns into a visit to fractional hell? 16.6ml?    Why not just use a multiple of 30 since a ten week supply is 30 doses? Use 900ml instead of 1000ml so that each dosage is 30ml. if you have trouble dissolving, then just use 1800ml of water so that each dose is 60ml. If it's easier to dose 50ml then use 50ml*30 = 1500ml of water.


Cheers,


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## daniel19831123 (19 Apr 2008)

Clive, you really deserve the nick cegipaedia. You left me in awe everytime I see your posting. Totally agreed with clive in terms of the dosing method but considering that the fact that lisa you are doing a busy course,there might be an alternative of dosing less frequently and just dumping a week worth of fert into the tank. Any comment on that? 

I'm personally doing EI daily dosing everyday and I find that I tend to forget which day is it or what I need to dose. I've tried mixing the fert together but I didn't managed to get hold of any of the ingredient per James recommendation so I just mixed it and left it in a container. It's been over 2 month now and I don't see any mould or sediment in the mixture. Using chuck calculator I worked out that I should be adding 5 mls per day  but if I know I'm going to be busy for a few days I'll add 30-40mls and then do my water change weekly. Anyone tried it this way?

Oh lisa, are those stone still in the tank because I'm not sure if I can see them once the P. helferi is covering the foreground. Maybe you need a boulder!

PS. If your p. helferi starts growing, can I have some to start my own colony? desperate for some in my new scape!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (20 Apr 2008)

Ceg - Cheers for the in-depth reply I had a feeling I may have to take molecular weights into consideration. And I bought some K2SO4 so I thought I might as well use it. I don't tend to work in USG or teaspoons, I'd prefer to work in grams and litres. Yeah 900mls is probably a better bet.

Dan - Lol yeah it has started grow (albeit with a bit too much brown stringy algae on it) when I sort out the algae problem I'll send you some.


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## daniel19831123 (20 Apr 2008)

Cheers Lisa! You're an angel!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (23 Apr 2008)

Ok so I have a D&D disposable CO2 kit. It has a reg, one guage (the low pressure output one), then solenoid (which is constantly on atm to keep algae at bay not sure if this is right), then non return valve (built in) with the fine adjuster. This travels to the tank in AE clear hose to a glass diffuser from Chrisi (thanks again).

When setting it up I noticed I would set it to something then when I go back in say a day it would be different. Then once I noticed it said 2 bar which is a tad high (in the red!!!). So I turned it down and did nothing, turned it all the way off and then nothing. Got my fiance to mess with it and finally got it going. Went up there the other day and noticed the drop checker was dark green. Noticed NO bubbles. Canister seemed to have run out (after about 3 weeks).

Put new canister on (on Monday 1am), set it to 1.5 bar. Today went up there and noticed it was only on 0.4 bar and not many bubbles. Checked for leaks both time using fairy liquid and water but nothing.

Can someone help with whats going on or ask some questions to find out more? I know I need limeade colour constantly to kick the algae (though excel is doing a damn good job, growth good too) and that fluctuating levels will cause a bloom. Please help I'm pulling out my hair!


Dan - PM me your address so when I need to prune I have it saved. P. helferi doesnt seem to do well in bags for too long, so I had to throw some away on Monday. It did have quite a bit of algae and javamoss on it though, so I wouldn't want to "infect" your tank.

I should put some pics up as I had to prune the hygrophila rosanverig or whatever. Got rid of the vallis. Completely replanted the P. helferi as it was quite choked with algae and the hoover was taking it out of the substrate anyhow. This time I separated each plant and gave it much more room. The growth already is great. Took out the HC as it started floating. This meant more room for P.helferi and I pulled the left rocks forward a bit to let the hairgrass have some room. I got some Crypt balansae from my LFS (can't remember if I said) which is sending out some new leaves. Most things are growing with new vigour after the re-fresh.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (23 Apr 2008)

Oh and I've just spent the last three days in the lab constantly making up dilutions and AAAAAR.

I take it back, the Ceg is a legend and must be obeyed. Teaspoons sounds great, I can do it at home and those figures sound really easy. Why use scales and work it out separately?

ALL HAIL CEGIPEDIA!!!   

Btw are you sure you haven't done a degree to get all the info you know?


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## ceg4048 (24 Apr 2008)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> Oh and I've just spent the last three days in the lab constantly making up dilutions and AAAAAR.
> 
> Teaspoons sounds great, I can do it at home and those figures sound really easy. Why use scales and work it out separately?
> 
> Btw are you sure you haven't done a degree to get all the info you know?



No, itÂ´s just that I've already gone though the agony, been to the mountain top and saw the burning bush....descended the mountain with stone tablets in hand and with all relevant instructions etched in stone...   

Single stage regulators are finiky and so are the smaller bottles. Ignore the pressure readings and just concentrate on the needle valve position and bubble count. I start from the opposite end in that I open the needle valve to maximum which tends to clear out any blockages in the line. With a fully open valve you should see massive bubles from the diffuser. If you don't see that then you might have a leak. At full throttle you might also be able to hear the hissing of a leak. Put some fairy liquid and water in a spray bottle and spray all joints. Leaks will sho up via large bubbles. Then slowly close the valve until you arrive at the bubble count. Remember that each time you reduce the valve opening you must wait until the excess pressure in the line bleeds off - that might take 5 minutes or so. Close the valve some more and wait. Do this iteratively until you get close to your desired bubble count. Subsequently, it may take hours for the dropchecker to change color so be patient.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (24 Apr 2008)

Well my fiance set it up and whacked it up to full (i think) pressure, there was pretty big bubbles coming out the diffuser then I was yipping at him to turn it down before he broke my diffuser. He was saying something about clearing it out or something. I didn't hear a hissing...

I don't have a bubble counter as I was using just a bit of water in my diffuser to count bubbles but since it going to high pressure it blew the water out.

I was late this morning so didn't get a chance to check it but when I get home (7-8) I should make sure its the same. I should also buy a timer.

Ceg - should I have CO2 running constantly to beat the algae atm or should I do standard 2 hours before lights on and an hour before lights off? (this is in my case I remember you do yours for less).


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## Dan Crawford (24 Apr 2008)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> should I have CO2 running constantly to beat the algae atm or should I do standard 2 hours before lights on and an hour before lights off? (this is in my case I remember you do yours for less).


I had algae issues a while back so i got rid of the solanoid and ran CO2 24/7 and it's gone away, i dose easy carbo too now so that probably helped too.


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## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2008)

Hi Lisa,
          Like Dan says, 24/7 is another possibility but you can do it either way. If you are having difficulty just getting a steady bubble rate though then the issue is beyond 24/7 vs Timer. If you don't have any fish yet (which, you shouldn't have, precisely because of things like this) then it might be easier to do what Dan does and just crank it 24/7 at high levels. You'll consume more gas but so what? This will reduce one complication and make life simpler for now. Not having any fish for the moment will allow you to crank the gas without regard to toxicity and to get the the tank back on track so I concurr with Dan's idea for now.  

Remember that Timer mode allows you to drive to much higher concentration levels but does add a layer of complexity.

Cheers,


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## Lisa_Perry75 (26 Apr 2008)

Cheers for the replies guys, much appreciated.

Ceg - of course I followed your advice and haven't added any fish. Went up to my room earlier and drop checker is quite yellow though bubbles  look about the same. Hmmm. Maybe monday I should just spend time checking the drop checker every hour or so and track the colour throughout the day...

TBH I don't have another timer, which is why I haven't used one. I was going to get one.

In general I have been majorly overdosing. I have used the principle of it would be much worse to underdose. So out of my 500mls of original solution I have about 200-300 left! That is some overdose. I do tend to do 75% w/c though. Haven't had much algae growth, got a little build up so I swished it off. Plants are going pretty well. Limnophila has reached the surface, P. helferi growing like the clappers. You shouldn't have to wait too long Dan!


John your Crypt. wendtii brown is growing pinkish! Sent out a few new leaves this week.


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## ceg4048 (26 Apr 2008)

OK, keep it going and get some stability going. It's a good idea to track the color changes on the drop checker throughout the day because it give you an idea of the concentration profile. As the plants grow, the higher biomass will alter the daily profile. When you prune and remove biomass you will see another alteration in the profile. After a few weeks you can then start to slowly make adjustments to the injection rates as you prepare to add fish, or you can change to Timer mode and play with that. 

I agree with your assessment that overdosing is not really a problem. Too many people freak out needlessly about adding nutrients and wind up having to deal with the consequences of underdosing. You'll be ahead of the game when you have proven to yourself that you can dose high nutrient levels without fear, knowing that the only disadvantage is that you have to buy more salts and mix up more solutions.  

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (29 Apr 2008)

Sounds like its time for some piccies 

Sam


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## beeky (30 Apr 2008)

Definitely!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (30 Apr 2008)

Okey dokey!

Well it started off like this:-




Then I trimmed the Limnophila and hairgrass (some is brown), removed some old leaves and did a major w/c (around 75% not including water in the filter, which is substantial).  Dosed excel, macros and micros. Left it a day. Transferred a few amanos, cherries and nerites. And also my 11 cardinals. Before anyone says anything the algae has almost gone and I'll be probably shutting the tank down (yes already    ) soon. Moving house issues are grrrrr. Gave me this:-





I had to rip out everything in my little low tech tank to get them out so now that looks like this:-





Oh and the amanos are amazing:-



At one point 5 were on that rock going mad. Looks really clean today! Dropchecker a limeade colour.


Ooh my "balansae" was 3 cheap bunches from my lfs, and the leaves won't grow upwards, I don't know why! They seem to grow as you see on the far left.


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## beeky (1 May 2008)

Looks really nice, the doinoi at the front works well. If I were being really critical I think the lotus is a bit too central, but hey I'm no expert!

How long have you had the balansae? It may just need time to straighten out....or maybe it's a tortifolia variant   

I empathise with you and your house move. Did it a few months ago and it was hell. Still have boxes scattered around waiting to be unpacked. My tank was half full of water for over 2 months before I had time to do anything with it. Think of this as the practise run.

Oh, and I'd move house as well if I had that bright pink wall!


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## Lisa_Perry75 (1 May 2008)

Walls are actually magnolia lol. I am a student and have to move my stuff to Salisbury, or maybe transfer straight to a new place. No idea whats happening there. Plus I am moving to Cambridge to the summer and maybe staying in a college, maybe not, god knows. I really hate uncertainty!!!


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## beeky (2 May 2008)

That'll teach me....

The reflection in the tank picture looks like a bright pink doorway.

Good luck with whatever happens.


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## Themuleous (2 May 2008)

Very nice Lisa, very nice 

Keep up the good work and it'll only get better.

Also, dont forget prune, prune, prune 

Sam


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## Lisa_Perry75 (3 May 2008)

Ah the pink thing is a storage box on my table, can you see me? Hehe.

Thanks Sam! Don't worry I am keeping up with the pruning. Especially the hygrophila, as it blocks out the light for the blyxa which hasn't fully recovered. The P.helferi is going mad! Did you say you want some? When I send some to Daniel I could send some to you?


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## Steve Smith (4 May 2008)

P. Helfri has sort of grown on me in recent months.  I used to hate the look of it, but I can see its appeal now   What sort of light conditions does it need?  If you had a small amount spare could I be cheaky?


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## Ark (8 Jun 2008)

hi looks good what substrate is that?


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