# Deficiencies?



## jameson_uk (14 Aug 2016)

I have 2x45W T5 tubes in my 180l tank which are on 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening (recently switched from 2x3 hours).  Tank is low tech and I have been dosing Flourish once a week and putting some Tropica root tabs under the swords, crypt and vals.

Some plants are doing well (Crypt, Anubias, Java Fern, Bacopa, Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis) but some are not doing so well (Vallisneria, Amazon Swords and Rotala).

The most concerning is the Rotala.   When planted this grew really well (to the point one stem nearly broke the water line and needed trimming) but now the leaves appear to be dying and the stems are quite limp.  They have been in there over 2 months now.



 

 

 



The swords have been in there three months but I have spent a long time removing melting leaves and the new leaves do not look that healthy (would have thought this is long enough for the plant to adjust to life under water?)


 

 



I have no interest in moving to a CO2 setup and I don't really want to start on EI dosing.  I realise CO2 is always going to be limiting factor in low tech but all these plants are meant to be OK without CO2 injection so I am hoping it is some sort of fert issue??

As I am dosing Flourish (which should take care of micros?) is this some form of macro deficiency?   Nitrates in the tank are normally 20 and from my research it looks like a lot of N ferts are nitrate based so presumably this is not the issue ??? (there is so much conflicting info; and mainly opinion; out there that is is hard to figure out what the real picture is...

What are these plants showing signs of?   (Please don't suggest just dosing EI to fix as I would like to understand what the issue is)


----------



## zozo (14 Aug 2016)

I can imagine if you work full time and or in continous rotating schedule that you would like to enjoy your tank at hours you are able to be in front of it... But for a low tech a somewhat steady light cycle is kinda vital for healthy plants. Rather extend your periode to 8 or 10 or even 12 hours is possible, but make it less intensity you have now. I can't have a clue how those 2x45 watt work in your tank right now, but it sounds a bit much..  And 2 shorts bursts of rather high intensity is something low tech setups just can't realy coop with. It all just works to slow, so before the plant has kinda build up it's metabolic process and maybe feel a bit happy you switch it all off again. In a low tech this process needs to build op, light can be switched on and off but plants can't.. I'm pretty sure your tank just aint running well because it doesn't get the chance to do so.

It is hard to say or give a time period for a low tech setup to establish, this because there are to many parts playing a role. Like substrate, kind of plants, filter, light, flow etc. So each tank is completely different. This whole ecological cycle needs to establish and all these factors together can make it go faster or slower.. Like in my low tech setup it took over 8 moths to finaly establish and see all plant equaly as healthy, because i started it up completely inert.. While if i had used a miniralized biological soil substrate it might only needed 4 months or even less. This is something you can't give a number to, it's to versatile and to dynamic.

My best guess is, (maybe) lower the light intensity and give it a longer and constant periode.. Give your tank the chance and time to establish.. It aint a christmass tree.
And if this means you can't enjoy a fully lit tank when your at home, so be it.. Then create some very dimmed ambiant light above the tank, so you can enyou it how it should look at night.. With a very dim moonlight simmulation, where you still can see relatively a lot..


----------



## tim (14 Aug 2016)

I agree with marcel, lights are too intense, I only use 2x 39w t5s over my high tech 180 ltr


----------



## zozo (14 Aug 2016)

Oh and i might add, in low tech even easy plants can be very difficult, this because water parameters and again substrate properties can be very different. And if a plant doesn't like it, then you sometimes just need to choose another one which likes it what you have to offer. I'm trying to grow Blyxa in my low tech and did read so many articles and saw pictures of the most beatifull blyxa growing in low tech conditions.. And what ever i try and how hard i try to duplicate the conditions from people showing me it can be done. This bugger just keeps dying on me.. I just can't get blyxa to grow in me setup. I'm still in the process of trying, but i'm about the give it up and admit, Blyxa beats me.. I have no idea what it is missing or what it maybe has to much.. Unfortunately not a plant for me..


----------



## rebel (14 Aug 2016)

I would be so keen to see whether EI would fix this issue. I reckon it won't because the high light and high ferts will be an algae soup.

What ever change you make, you should do that one at a time. Two weeks is enough to notice changes in have growth tips.

Another elegant method is to use fert tabs (comprehensive ferts) but only in some plants...


----------



## jameson_uk (14 Aug 2016)

zozo said:


> My best guess is, (maybe) lower the light intensity and give it a longer and constant periode.. Give your tank the chance and time to establish.. It aint a christmass tree.
> And if this means you can't enjoy a fully lit tank when your at home, so be it.. Then create some very dimmed ambiant light above the tank, so you can enyou it how it should look at night.. With a very dim moonlight simmulation, where you still can see relatively a lot..


I have it like this because it was recommended somewhere  but I cannot for the life of me figure out why or where now...  I wish I could remember all my research but my brain appear to get a 30% partial memory change every week 
I work away a lot and rarely see the tank lit up so it is was for the plants not me but I will switch to a solid 8 hours in the afternoon / evening instead.
I do have some Amazon Frogbit to diffuse the light so will possibly add a little more of that.  (The lights are the stock ones that come with the Juwel Rio 180 and are of an annoying length that I cannot just replace them with other tubes and am stuck with 45W ).   
That said, this is still 90W over 180l which I thought, with T5s, was the border between low and medium lighting levels?

Presumably the substrate should not make too much of a difference to the Rotala as it is a stem plant ??? and I was more concerned that it seemed to be growing OK (really well) and has started to deteriorate.

So are we saying that the Rotala are showing that they are not getting enough continuous light and if I switch to a solid 8 hours it may pick up or is this just that I should be running like this and not related to what is in the photos??


----------



## jameson_uk (14 Aug 2016)

rebel said:


> Another elegant method is to use fert tabs (comprehensive ferts) but only in some plants...


I use Tropica root tabs (which are meant to contain macros and micros) on the root feeders (swords, crypts & vals) and the Crypt is doing really well, the swords are kind of existing and the vals are slowly dying off.


----------



## rebel (14 Aug 2016)

Are you dosing excel?


----------



## jameson_uk (14 Aug 2016)

rebel said:


> Are you dosing excel?


No just Flourish and the root tabs


----------



## zozo (14 Aug 2016)

jameson_uk said:


> I have it like this because it was recommended somewhere  but I cannot for the life of me figure out why or where now...



I did read that too at several forums and blogs etc. that people do recomend this probably because they had a form of positive results with it. In all cases i red it it was mainly with the goal to fight off algae, because plants store energy and algae does less and there for probably grows slower whit a dark pause mid day.. Tho i can't realy see it as beneficial in anyway in an overall cycle of a tank, it's completely unnatural and also don't see it contribute to anything to disrupt a plants ongoing metabolic cycle haf way and then start it up again. This is not how a plant developed nor grows in it's natural habitat. Especialy in a low tech setup where everything runs darn slow and is closest to nature possible in an artifical environment.  In high tech maybe (I will never know), everything goes much faster with a lot of co2 and maybe higher light intensity. (Which actualy also is very unnatural).. But there are other ways to get rid of algae eqauly if not more sufficient. Some poeple just need very high light to grow certain kinds of (red) plants, so i guess they rather come up with desperate measures to fight off algae, which is in many cases light (intensity) related. I share the believe that this is the group who came up with the idea to break the light periode in 2 without missing in intensity.  

Anyway bottom line is rather simple, a plant needs light to do something with the ferts you give them and grow. So if you deprive them from a steady light cycle you also deprive them from the abbility uttilizing the ferts. The next logical step is showing deficiencies even if there is enough around, they can't do much with it without a stable and steady lightcycle.


----------



## jameson_uk (16 Aug 2016)

zozo said:


> I did read that too at several forums and blogs etc. that people do recomend this probably because they had a form of positive results with it. In all cases i red it it was mainly with the goal to fight off algae, because plants store energy and algae does less and there for probably grows slower whit a dark pause mid day.. Tho i can't realy see it as beneficial in anyway in an overall cycle of a tank, it's completely unnatural and also don't see it contribute to anything to disrupt a plants ongoing metabolic cycle haf way and then start it up again. This is not how a plant developed nor grows in it's natural habitat. Especialy in a low tech setup where everything runs darn slow and is closest to nature possible in an artifical environment.  In high tech maybe (I will never know), everything goes much faster with a lot of co2 and maybe higher light intensity. (Which actualy also is very unnatural).. But there are other ways to get rid of algae eqauly if not more sufficient. Some poeple just need very high light to grow certain kinds of (red) plants, so i guess they rather come up with desperate measures to fight off algae, which is in many cases light (intensity) related. I share the believe that this is the group who came up with the idea to break the light periode in 2 without missing in intensity.
> 
> Anyway bottom line is rather simple, a plant needs light to do something with the ferts you give them and grow. So if you deprive them from a steady light cycle you also deprive them from the abbility uttilizing the ferts. The next logical step is showing deficiencies even if there is enough around, they can't do much with it without a stable and steady lightcycle.


After finding some stuff I read before I think this idea of a light siesta came around from the Diana Walstad and I think the idea was that in a low tech setup you stop the light before the CO2 is used up and then restart it again later.   I also think it was about replicating a day where it is sunny then overcast (no lights but ambient daylight) and then a bright afternoon again...

Still I am now on 8 hours solid to see if it makes a difference.   I am thinking more and more that this is possibly down to flow (http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/spray-bar-flow.41745/) and the plants not doing so well are the ones at the back of the tank behind driftwood and ornaments which are probably getting less flow than is ideal ???

Does it make a difference which eight hours the lights are on for?
Also as above is 0.5W/L not the borderline between low and medium light?  If so is this really far too much?  And if so will surface plants be enough to diffuse it to better levels or should I be looking to do something else to diffuse it or removing one of the tubes?


----------

