# Locally sourced leaf litter



## Zante (26 May 2018)

Not exactly aquatic plants, but I thought I'd ask here as it seems the most appropriate.

I have available, locally that I know are clean, linden, walnut, oak, magnolia, sweet chestnut, cherry.
Any of these good to use as leaf litter?


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## rebel (27 May 2018)

Yes. Oak is especially good as it breaks down really slow.

Make sure there areno pesticides on the leaves .


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## dw1305 (27 May 2018)

Hi all,





Zante said:


> magnolia


<"Magnolia is good">, the evergreen leaves (_Magnolia grandiflora_) last really well, and the deciduous leaves (_M. x soulangeana_ etc.) skeletonize. 

cheers Darrel


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## mort (27 May 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,<"Magnolia is good">, the evergreen leaves (_Magnolia grandiflora_) last really well, and the deciduous leaves (_M. x soulangeana_ etc.) skeletonize.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Interesting, I've got a grandiflora but never considered it.

@Zante I've used oak, walnut, cherry and sweet chestnut before. Beech is great and so are fruits.


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## Zante (27 May 2018)

Thank you everyone, I'm planning a rather large tank and doing it with just catappa would have looked unrealistic (and expensive!). With this selection of botanicals it'll look a lot better.

As for pesticides, I'd be picking them from the woods owned by a former neighbour who used to trade in wood.
He has over 300 hectares of woodland and the only work he ever did on it was clearing and cutting, no spraying of any kind.


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## Zante (27 May 2018)

Ah, almost forgot: picked green and dried or picked in autumn when already dry?


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## rebel (27 May 2018)

Has to be (preferably naturally) dried for leaf litter. For shrimp food, either is fine but some are better raw say for example Mulberry.


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## Zante (27 May 2018)

rebel said:


> Has to be (preferably naturally) dried for leaf litter. For shrimp food, either is fine but some are better raw say for example Mulberry.



Yes, I understand they should be dried when added to the aquarium, but what I mean is do I pick them already dry, when the tree has already drained all the nutrients it could for them or do I pick them green, dry them and then add them to the tank?

They won't be used as shrimp food, the tank will contain discus, rummynoses, corys and bristlenoses.


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## Angus (27 May 2018)

Others have put some good information across, but i will give my opinion because why not , leaves from Lime(Linden) and cherry will decompose quickly and are not very long term, lime is better as a food source than for leaf litter, oak, magnolia, walnut and sweet chestnut are good options for leaf litter, also walnut casings and acorn caps (not the acorn itself) should be fine to use, i have always steered clear of cherry, or any species that contain prussic acid myself, if you have any beech or alder locally the leaves and nuts/cones of those are great options too.

As far as drying them or picking them dry, i would take them dry from a clean source of leaf litter on the ground, preferable in a dry place with no pollution, but you can also pick green and press them in a book, they just don't look as good, they tend to have uneven colouration and can get mildew spots unless taken out of the pressing book every few days.


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## rebel (27 May 2018)

Has to be (preferably naturally) dried for leaf litter. For shrimp food, either is fine but some are better raw say for example Mulberry.


Zante said:


> Yes, I understand they should be dried when added to the aquarium, but what I mean is do I pick them already dry, when the tree has already drained all the nutrients it could for them or do I pick them green, dry them and then add them to the tank?
> 
> They won't be used as shrimp food, the tank will contain discus, rummynoses, corys and bristlenoses.


Best to get the already dried and shed leaves.

Someone else may know how/what happens when a leaf is manually dried vs naturally falls off.


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## Edvet (27 May 2018)

Anyone knows if Magnolia grandiflora can reasonably be grown in a pot?  Or can be trimmed/pruned quite hard? Our garden is to full to add a 10 meter large tree, i could try to sneak in a smaller bush


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## Angus (27 May 2018)

Edvet said:


> Anyone knows if Magnolia grandiflora can reasonably be grown in a pot?  Or can be trimmed/pruned quite hard? Our garden is to full to add a 10 meter large tree, i could try to sneak in a smaller bush


Difficult to keep small as once pruned they produce very large epicormic shoots, which you can remove to retain the previous shape, but leads to gradual loss of vitality.


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## sparkyweasel (27 May 2018)

'Kay Parris' is a smaller variety of Magnolia grandiflora. Not tiny, but smaller than most, about 5 - 6m if you could fit that in.


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## Edvet (28 May 2018)

Thx


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## zozo (28 May 2018)

Edvet said:


> Anyone knows if Magnolia grandiflora can reasonably be grown in a pot?


Regarding some Dutch gardening sites, they should be, but more like in a Tub than a pot.. This cross breed M. grandiflora X M. salicifolia can be pruned pretty heavily they say. 
https://www.tuinkrant.com/artikel/mooiste-lente-zomerbloeiende-magnolias-jarenlang-bloeiplezier

Anyway they can be bought in a 110 litre pot.. Seemingly till that size it shouldn't be all to problematic.



 

https://www.bigplantnursery.co.uk/plants/magnolia-grandiflora-praecox_783.html


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## mort (28 May 2018)

I've got a grandiflora in a pot at the minute. It was bought last year but is really just a glorified 6ft twig being a grafted branch. It's starting to grow really strongly and I think it will be quite big in a few years if I put it in the ground. I'm probably going to make a planter from old pallets for it and upgrade it every couple of years to try and limit the growth somewhat as we don't have space for a mature specimen and I know they don't like to be pruned that much or have their roots disturbed.


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## Edvet (28 May 2018)

Thx again


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## Zante (10 Jul 2018)

Adding a couple of questions:

Walnut shells? Hazelnut shells? Almond, pecan and any other nut shell?

I'd like it to look like the bottom of a slow flowing river, and it won't have any plants other than one or two amazon swords, so twigs, leaves and various shells will be the only real decoration apart from one large log.


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## zozo (10 Jul 2018)

Zante said:


> Adding a couple of questions:
> 
> Walnut shells? Hazelnut shells? Almond, pecan and any other nut shell?



I have a bathtub in my garden that i use each summer as pond setup in the garden with plants and goldfish. During the years it was about setup in every corner of the garden. I have sevral trees and chrubs around it, wallnuts, chestnuts cherry, grape. And i've found all in there fallen in fresh from the tree. The nuts the shells, fresh fruit, the blossoms, the leaves dry and fresh it just blows in. I never realy experienced any problems as long as it is maintained propperly it shouldn't accumulate to much.  I'm not sure what the effect is if you over do it, to much of anything in a closed setup water column is never a good thing. You keep it all in and it doesn't get flushed it out. Only with the water changes you'll heve some flushing.

Most material you don't want is fresh material, in my case i take all out i see in it. But still it was in there for some days and sometimes i don't know how long exactly.. Without ever experiencing nasty effects.

But since in your case it's about dried stuff and the dry hard nut shells only.. Relative to the amount vs volume you like to use it can't leach indefinitely and a good advice would be, always pre soak it for a longer periode, refresh the water regularly during this soaking process and filter the container with the soaking shells after several water refreshings for a while with active carbon before you use it in the aqaurium. After a few weeks it will be flushed enough not to leach to much into the water column anymore. And keep up with the aqauriums regular water changes.. This advice is also givin when you purchase Tanin Aquatics decorative fruit pods etc. from their webshop. WIth this approach you're beter safe than sorry and probably can use quite a lot as long as it is hard enough not to rot away in a few weeks.


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## tam (10 Jul 2018)

Crushed walnut shells are used as pet bedding so probably don't contain anything too toxic. I found a website selling turkish hazel husks for shrimp: https://www.shrimps.se/en/nature/210-turkish-hasel-husk.html it's going to be one of those things you'd have to try though I don't think there is a definitive answer available. Let us know how you get on.


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## Zante (10 Jul 2018)

zozo said:


> But since in your case it's about dried stuff and the dry hard nut shells only.. Relative to the amount vs volume you like to use it can't leach indefinitely and a good advice would be, always pre soak it for a longer periode, refresh the water regularly during this soaking process and filter the container with the soaking shells after several water refreshings for a while with active carbon before you use it in the aqaurium. After a few weeks it will be flushed enough not to leach to much into the water column anymore. And keep up with the aqauriums regular water changes..



It'll be some time before I can set up this aquarium, so I can soak this stuff for months (and use the water to water the plants on my balcony) before drying it and storing it for future use in my aquarium. In any case I'm not planning to go for quantity, just variety, so there won't be a large layer of stuff at any one time in the tank.



zozo said:


> This advice is also givin when you purchase Tanin Aquatics decorative fruit pods etc. from their webshop. WIth this approach you're beter safe than sorry and probably can use quite a lot as long as it is hard enough not to rot away in a few weeks.



Yes, I thought about that, but at 220cm by 60cm it's going to be a lot of surface, so I wanted to use something cheaper.


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## Zante (10 Jul 2018)

tam said:


> Crushed walnut shells are used as pet bedding so probably don't contain anything too toxic. I found a website selling turkish hazel husks for shrimp: https://www.shrimps.se/en/nature/210-turkish-hasel-husk.html it's going to be one of those things you'd have to try though I don't think there is a definitive answer available. Let us know how you get on.



I guess I can do the long soak described above, and then try small quantities. Won't be needing much, because as mentioned above, I'm aiming for variety, not for bulk. Also, in about 800 litres it should dilute quite well, and the forest of emersed plants on the back edge of the tank should be quite a buffer.


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## mort (10 Jul 2018)

Zante said:


> Adding a couple of questions:
> 
> Walnut shells? Hazelnut shells? Almond, pecan and any other nut shell?
> 
> I'd like it to look like the bottom of a slow flowing river, and it won't have any plants other than one or two amazon swords, so twigs, leaves and various shells will be the only real decoration apart from one large log.



Acorn cups and beech cases work well.


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## zozo (10 Jul 2018)

Zante said:


> , so I wanted to use something cheaper.



Scavange webshops or local shops in Dry flower arrangement materials.. They have the same stuff a lot cheaper. Only buy the natural dried products (non painted and non scented). Tanin aqautics probably jumped on the same suppliers with a different idea than dry flower hobby hush about it and cash on it big time. No pun attented i like them, but since it's from the states and no go with the high shipping costs. I searched and stumbled uppon other suppliers like bellow.. 
https://www.theessentialscompany.co.uk/dried-natural/pods-seeds/


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## Tim Harrison (10 Jul 2018)

zozo said:


> Regarding some Dutch gardening sites, they should be, but more like in a Tub than a pot.. This cross breed M. grandiflora X M. salicifolia can be pruned pretty heavily they say.
> https://www.tuinkrant.com/artikel/mooiste-lente-zomerbloeiende-magnolias-jarenlang-bloeiplezier
> 
> Anyway they can be bought in a 110 litre pot.. Seemingly till that size it shouldn't be all to problematic.
> ...


That you Marcel...?


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## zozo (10 Jul 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> That you Marcel...?


You mean the guy in the picture?.. No that's not me, that's probably the owner of bigplantsnursery.co.uk..
Till now i don't believe there is a picture of me personaly roaming the net.. Not that i know of..  Maybe deep down in the net digging google cache from my flying days via the old fly club website. But that should be at least 15 years ago.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Jul 2018)

International man of mystery


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## zozo (10 Jul 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> International man of mystery



Like Tims neighbour from the series Home improvement. Always behind the fence..


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## REDSTEVEO (10 Jul 2018)

https://tanninaquatics.com/collections/aquatic-botanicals

Steve


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## Zante (11 Jul 2018)

REDSTEVEO said:


> https://tanninaquatics.com/collections/aquatic-botanicals
> 
> Steve



Yes, I know, but with $5 I can get myself six pods, or a bag of walnuts and a bag of hazelnuts, and have the nuts to eat as a bonus.
This without counting $35 shipping to Italy.

It can get expensive to litter around 1 square meter (around 11 square feet for the non-metric) from this shop.


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## REDSTEVEO (17 Jul 2018)

True, if you can be sure what you find yourself is disease free and does the job, then all is well.

Cheers.


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## Wolf6 (4 Oct 2021)

Autumn is upon us and much in the garden is turning, so I'm reviving this old thread with some new questions if the following plants are safe for use:

Fern leaves?
Dogwood leaves?
lilac leaves? And branches for that matter (large lilac try in the garden here)
Blackberry/raspberry leaves?
Grape leaf?
Lupine leaf?
mountain ash leaf?


Most of the above I ask because of the varying leaf forms that could be cool to use. 

From what I gathered from here and some google, the following are already declared safe for use:

beech
oak* will tan water slightly
magnolia
Cherry (just falls apart quickly)
walnut
Chestnut
acer/maple (falls apart quickly)
pear
apple
hawthorne

Unsafe:

anything from pinetrees?
anything from conifers?
Common ivy (hedera helix) - slightly toxic

Maybe we can make a sticky thread somewhere with safe for use/unsafe for use plant parts listing and possible side effects such as tanning water etc?


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## dw1305 (4 Oct 2021)

Hi all, 


Wolf6 said:


> Fern leaves?
> Dogwood leaves?
> lilac leaves? And branches for that matter (large lilac try in the garden here)
> Blackberry/raspberry leaves?
> ...


Out of those probably just the Mountain Ash (_Sorbus aucuparia_), and I'd guess they would decay fairly rapidly.


Wolf6 said:


> anything from pinetrees?
> anything from conifers?
> Common ivy (hedera helix) - slightly toxic


I'd keep away from those. I've used long dead <"Ivy (_Hedera helix_)">, <"Yew (_Taxus baccata_)"> and <"Douglas Fir (_Pseudotsuga menziesii_)"> wood, but I wouldn't go near the leaves, or any wood that had been recently green.


Wolf6 said:


> Maybe we can make a sticky thread somewhere with safe for use/unsafe for use plant parts listing and possible side effects such as tanning water etc?


I think it is quite tricky, most wood and leaves that are rot resistant are rot resistant because they contain toxic compounds and I would be reluctant to describe something as unequivocally "safe". 

cheers Darrel


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## Tyko_N (4 Oct 2021)

Wolf6 said:


> Fern leaves?
> Dogwood leaves?
> lilac leaves? And branches for that matter (large lilac try in the garden here)
> Blackberry/raspberry leaves?
> ...


Out of those I have tried grape and mountain ash. The grape leaves deteriorated very quickly if I remember right, so might be good for creating lots of detritus fast, but I would avoid larger quantities. Mountain ash worked pretty well, although the leaflets tends to fall of. I would be very careful with lupine, not only do they contain unpleasant alkaloids, they are also legumes so even dead leaves might contain a lot of nitrogen (just like alder trees legumes shed their leaves without retracting the chlorophyll).

As for conifers, we have plenty of dammed lakes around here with old coniferous trees on the bottom, so I have experimented with scots pine and spruce. Spruce is way to soft to last for any length of time underwater, but pine that have been waterlogged for some years works pretty well and is what I use in my aquariums.


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## zozo (4 Oct 2021)

I remember an interview I heard with Dr C. Steinberg from the Berlin university about their study on Dissolved Humic Substances / Stress Ecology and the positive effects on freshwater lifeforms. And he said that they also tested dried Pine Needles and these are absolutely safe to use if there is nothing else you can find. I guess it's pinewood or any other softwood containing lots of resin that should be avoided.

If you happen to understand the German language it's this podcast/interview. Listen at 7m 5s for "Selbst Nadelstreu das wirkt positive DE = Even Pine Litter it works positive Eng".


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## shangman (4 Oct 2021)

I recently used some fern leaves I collected from our garden last autumn. They work well, they've last a month so far and still look really nice and have no unhappy inhabitants (with snails, shrimp & fish). I'm a big fan of collecting interesting leaves and giving them a go, currently have a load of palm leaves in the shed which I love but are a bit large  Also I quite like the dried bamboo leaves, which are smaller and paler than most, and hairy acorn cups from the turkey oak.

My current favourites are magnolia grandiflora leaves which have a lovely structure + colour and take a few months for the otos to really destroy them, and dried green walnut leaves which the otos devour within day or two leaving interesting skeleton leaves. They're really just food, but it looks much nicer and more natural than a bit of courgette on a stick.


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## mort (4 Oct 2021)

Hornbeam is pretty tough and definitely safe. I've used sweet chestnut which look great but not for long unfortunately. I've got a mulberry as well which is safe.

Like Rosie mentions magnolia grandiflora is a great leaf but they tend to be pretty big so don't always fit in nano tanks.

Don't forget it's not just leaves. We all know alder cones are great but I've used hazelnut husks (helpfully prepared by the mice that live near the tree), beech husks, the odd pistachio nut shell, plus others you'd see in a shelled Christmas nut collection, acorn cups plus many more. They might not all look biotope specific but you can get a nice mix.


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