# 74l Rock and Grass Scape



## Denis C. (13 Mar 2008)

Hi folks,

Great forum you have here and kudos to the members and moderators. I've been pottering around for a bit reading peoples articles, journals, experience etc.. and I thought I would post up my tank to get some constructive feed back and advice where possible. I've been posting this journal on FF.net and I see lots of familiar names on here so I will make the overview brief to avoid repetition.

Hardware; 

74l Tank (75cm x 31 x 32) Black plastic trimming was removed and sprayed with white enamel and an elevated stand was created out of 2x2' timber to match the over tank light box.






The DIY overtank light kit is made from 12mm MDF, painted with white high gloss and fitted with 2 x 18w T8's and 2 x 20w T4's. The box is supported by a single 3x2' upright and can pivot up and down for access with the use of a heavy duty door hinge. All tubes have been fitted with reflectors.





Hardscape;

Old devonian red sand stone
Horticultural grit
Tropica aquarium soil





(The animals have moved off to better grazing)


Regime
Pressurized Co2 from a 2kg FE @ 1-2 bubble per second
Daily dosing of Homemade PPS-Pro Ferts 1ml per 10 gallons
Daily dosing of Tropica Plant Nutrition 1ml per 10 gallons

50% water change ever two days for the first 14 days of the tank being planted.


Plants
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Echinodorus tenellus
Hemianthus callitrichoides





Planted without water





The tanks has been running for nine days now, not much has happened but the HC has started to move which is great to see as I was beginning to think that I had a sterile tank. As expect the brasiliensis hasn't budged but some of the tenellus is starting to develop new shoots. Other than that, the tank has begun to get algae on the rocks so I am picking up some otto's tomorrow and that's the long and short of it.  Its been fun putting it together so far and I'm looking forward to it development.


Tank as of Yesterday (9 days in)








Regards

Denis


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## Arana (13 Mar 2008)

That's a great start, and the DIY light looks very stylish  Great work...
looking forward to seeing this one develop over time


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## Garuf (13 Mar 2008)

I meant to tell you on fish forums but it slipped my mind, add a LOAD of fast growing stems in there in an attempt to quell any algae.


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## ceg4048 (13 Mar 2008)

Hi Denis,
                  Golly, brilliant setup. I love the professional approach to the tank/canopy setup and the organized way in which you planned and executed everything. Anyone with the patience to plant that many individual strands with the forceps deserves max kudos!

I am glad you were able to find a home for the rhino and brother hippo.  

I did wonder why you decided on the T4 bulbs but from the photo it appears you do have sufficient light. HC does take a while to set in. Dave Spencer suggests that you just set the pots in the tank for a few weeks before planting them. An indication that they have insufficient light+CO2  would be if they start growing towards the surface or start to get otherwise stringy.

I say add more CO2 only because your drop checker looks too dark, but I don't know at what point in the photoperiod you took the shots. Since you have no fish you can easily double or treble the bubble rate and drive the drop checker way into the yellow without fear it seems to me.

I want to avoid a dosing flame war so I'll just comment that I generally favor high nutrient content and that if you are performing a 3X per week water changes and still getting the onset of algae it might be an indication that you need more NPK and/or CO2. Such low plant biomass is always going to be very difficult. I didn't see your filtration specs but we all sort of collectively agreed on the 10X tank volume rule of thumb turnover rate which will definitely help.

In any case that should turn out to be a cracking tank. Looking forward to seeing it develop.

Cheers,


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## TDI-line (14 Mar 2008)

Very nice scape.


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## Luketendo (14 Mar 2008)

Hello again, it's looking fantastic and the ottos will have a field day.

I'd like Ottos in my Lido but I have an angelfish and a gourami, I don't want to risk them.


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## Lisa_Perry75 (14 Mar 2008)

You could always put a floating plant in that could out-compete algae?


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## aaronnorth (14 Mar 2008)

good to see you over here Dennis! What livestock are you planning on?


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## Denis C. (15 Mar 2008)

Thanks folks for the comments and suggestions. I will try and answer most of your comments. 

Garuf and Lisa, about your suggestion of adding some fast growing stems plants. I had previously hesitations  about adding any species that had a heavy rooting system as I figured they would do a lot of damage on removing them once the other slower growing species had started to develop. However, I took your suggestion into consideration today while I was in my LFS and I picked up some Eleoda. I have stuck the stems up near the surface of the tank with a clip normally used for holding edible seaweed in marine tanks. Hopefully this will help subdue some of the algae growth.

ceg4048, regarding the T4's. I'm not sure if the T4's are new to the market but it is the first time I have found ones that have tubes in the theoretical range for plant growth. These tubes are labelled at 6400k so are roughly in the right range but I haven't seen anyone using them before so this is really a trial. The other good thing about them is that they are energy saving bulbs and use a fraction on the electricity of a standards T8. Plus and this is the good part, their lumen output is 3-5 times that of a similar T8 (so says the packaging). Also the filter I am using is one of the really old school fluval externals, it is one of the one's that you have to clip the motor back on to the round body, its a real pain to get it primed too but once its running its like a fire hose. The tank is 74l and i'd say that the rock and substrate take s up about 15-20l so I would safely say that it would turnover the remaining 54l  at least ten times an hour. As for the Co2, I added some ottos today to keep the rocks out of the green so I wont be driving the drop checking into the yellow, but I did increase the bubble count after your suggestion.

Aaronnorth, thanks for the welcome. I'm only going to use two species unless I get really carried away with myself. These are going to be Ottos (_Otocinclus affinis_) and "lamb chop Harlequins"  _(Trigonostigma hengeli)_ but that's only if I can get them. 

Thinks that all the queries covered

I added a sheet of tracing paper today for a background, but although it translucent I'm still undecided on how it looks





Some of the new tenants that I added today, busy little fellows but I doubt that some will last the night.










Regards

Denis


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## Luketendo (15 Mar 2008)

I see you important insane growth weed.

The Ottos should be nice and fat soon. I do hope they live, how many are there?

Tracing paper does look surprisingly good, shame the white still comes through.


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## Themuleous (15 Mar 2008)

Looks really nice 

Sam


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## zig (15 Mar 2008)

It looks brutal Denis  

Is that to harsh  

Joking of course Denis it looks great, good start, Denis where did you get the CO2, did you find out where the D&D chaps have moved to in Park west, or did you get it before they moved, I need their new address if you have it to get a couple of cylinders refilled.

How are you diffusing the CO2 btw? glass diffuser into the tank?


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## Denis C. (15 Mar 2008)

zig said:
			
		

> It looks brutal Denis
> 
> Is that to harsh
> 
> How are you diffusing the CO2 btw? glass diffuser into the tank?




Cheers Peter, you do have a way with words! 

As for the CO2, I never found out where those guys from D + D moved to. I'm sure that if I had put a lot of work into a private investigation style inquiry I would have been able to locate them but unfortunately I didn't have the time or patients. Instead I just bought a brand new 2kg extinguished from a company out in tallaght. They only sell the fire equipment and don't know and couldn't recommend a company to refill them so I will have to cross the refilling bridge when I get to it. For co2 diffusion, I'm using a C02 atomizer which I bought in that aquatic plant shop in San Francisco (This one) when I was over there last. The guy in the shop said it was as good if not better than the ADA equivalent and they used them in all their stock tanks. It seems to be working well (so says my drop checker).

Luke, I got eight ottos in total and they are all still with me at the moment but I do have my reservations. I agree with you about the tracing paper and I kinda like the hint of the white upright as I think it breaks up the background but not to intrusively. Plus it looks quite well with two white cold cathode tubes behind it (will post pictures soon).

Regards


Denis


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## Denis C. (18 Mar 2008)

Not much news with growth in the tank at the moment. The HC seems to be making a decent effort to take off but is still very slow to put on biomass. However, at the end of the eight hours of photoperiod it does show good signs of respiration with plenty of oxgen bubbles being produced. 






The same cannot be said for the other two species, the Echinodorus tenellus has all but rotten away with zero growth and decomposition on the remaining leaves. The pot of tenellus I used for planting was very poor quality but it was the only one I could get my hands on in Dublin, obviously it was beyond saving. I've ordered an additional pot and I should get it in about two weeks or so. The brasilinesis hasn't budged either but I've semi expected this because it is such a high light demanding species but I thought it might have at least sent up a shoot or two at the stage. Does anyone know how long brasilinesis take to become established and show a decent growth rate? To increase the level of light, I lowered the level of the light box above the tank by six centimeters. This may be a trivial distance but I hope it helps as it was a real pain in the butt to do, I had to remove most of the water from the tank, move the entire stand/tank away from the wall , unscrew the single support and lop off the 6cm from the bottom of it. The only other problem now is that moisture has started to condense in the light box so I will have to add some PC cooling fans to help circulation (another days work).




The light box is now flush with the top of the tank.


Other than that the algae has started to increase but I don't think it is of major concern at the moment and the ottos are helping to keep it in check. As for the ottos, I lost two of the nine within two days but I had been expecting this to happen. 


Regards

Denis


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## Garuf (18 Mar 2008)

> The same cannot be said for the other two species, the Echinodorus tenellus has all but rotten away with zero growth and decomposition on the remaining leaves



Don't worry, as long as you had root stock it might yet return and if it does it will grow rampantly.


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## Luketendo (19 Mar 2008)

Garuf said:
			
		

> > The same cannot be said for the other two species, the Echinodorus tenellus has all but rotten away with zero growth and decomposition on the remaining leaves
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry, as long as you had root stock it might yet return and if it does it will grow rampantly.



Yeah It might come back.

Whenever I moved my Hygro around the tank it always leaves another little plant behind.


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## aaronnorth (19 Mar 2008)

Shame about the light because i liked it like that.


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## zig (19 Mar 2008)

Denis, dose more fertiliser if you want faster growth, with pps method things will grow slowly but thats the idea really, if you want faster growth use EI method, but faster growth can lead to faster problems thats the drawback.

I agree the e.tenellus will probably make a comeback, I found the Lilaeopsis brasilinesis grew very slowly for me. I found it prone to algae problems as well unless the tank was in tip top shape, usually problems bba alage, mind you its a long time since I have grown it so I may have better luck with it now. I have found Lilaeopsis mauritiana a bit easier and less prone to algae, it still grows slowly though.


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## Denis C. (23 Mar 2008)

zig said:
			
		

> Denis, dose more fertiliser if you want faster growth, but faster growth can lead to faster problems that's the drawback.



Spot on Peter! Can you say ALGEA!!!! I tried bumping the level of ferts to try and  get the Lilaeopsis brasilinesis to move but it still decided to stay where it was and didn't budge! The other result of added in that extra 2mls a day of PPS-Pro solution was a small explosion in algae. I had expected this but I wasn't aware of the speed which it can grow at, "I'm not angry, I'm impressed". 





The brasilinesis has started to break down further and has now started to cast off it leaves. The leave have turned from a green to a yellowish colour, the blades of the plant have also started to twist while the tips of the leaves have also curled. 













As with all plant growth problems it is more than likely a deficiency/overdose in one of the key elements; lighting, nutrients or co2, but I'm unsure of which one it is so if somebody could point me in the right direction it would be great. In my opinion I think it is more than likely going to be a problem with lighting or fertilization as the co2 is working fine and the drop checker is showing a light green colour. The lights are 2 X 20W T4's (bulbs rated at 6400k) and 2 X 18W T8's  (Arcadia "Fresh Water Tubes" 7500k), This gives a total of 76W and with the tanks volume at 16.28 UK gallons it provides 4.6 W/Per gallon. The T4 tubes are also rated to have 3-5 times the lumen output of a T8 of the same wattage. Therefore with these stats I would have thought I would have had sufficient light to grow the most light demanding of species. Could the cause of the problem be too much light, might be the plant be being burnt? Just because a bulb is rated at 6500k does that mean it is good for plant growth?

The fert problem might be because in the PPs-Pro mixture that I made up it was very difficult to get the Sulphate of potash to dissolve into the solution (I used a pestles and mortar). Therefore, when the bottle is left for a short period of time the potash settles in the bottom of the bottle. When I add the ferts to the tank (shake bottle), you can see the particles going around in tank but would these particles not be removed by the filter hence not letting the plants get sufficient potassium to grow? So you know; I am using Tropica Plant substrate and daily dose PPs-Pro solution at 1ml for ever ten gallon and Tropica and Tropica Plant Nutrition at 1ml for every ten gallons.

I hope someone can throw some suggestion in my direction.

In other tank maintenance updates. After the first batch of very poor quality tenellus decided not to grow and die,  I bought two really good quality pots  this Saturday and added them to the tank in the hope that they might help abate the algae problem and raise my hopes and the look of the tank. 





I also had a small condensation problem in the light box since it had been lowered to be flush with the tank. So I added a small 12V PC motherboard cooling fan to extract the air from the hood and draw in dry air from the room. The major problem with this was trying to get the fan to run very slowly and at 3V is still ran to fast and was very audible, so I placed a 50% resistor in the live wire to cut the voltage in half and the made the fan run at 1.5V. Perfect!

















Now, If I could only get the plants to live!!!!

Regards

Denis


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## ceg4048 (23 Mar 2008)

Hi,
    Yes, your problem is too much light and not enough CO2. There is no way you can dose lean and have high light without problems. Nutrients don't cause algae. As you increased the nutrient dosing without increasing CO2 you merely fed the algae that was already induced by the ammonia levels in the tank.

Try lowering your light and adding more CO2. It is only then that the nutrients you add will have a significant impact on plant growth. Disintegrating plants are almost always a result of CO2 starvation.

This is another reason I advise against adding fish so soon. The presence of the fish limit the amount of CO2 that you can add. I'll venture to say that had you doubled or tripled your injection rate instead of adding ottos you would have stood a much better chance.

The following threads may be of some assistance in regard to this:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=905
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=467
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1211
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=798


Cheers,


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## Denis C. (24 Mar 2008)

Thanks for the reply, information and the links. Thats a power article that you put together regarding Co2 and it makes for a educational experience. Regarding my co2 injection, I has simply assumed that when the drop checker was in the green there would be adequate co2 for plant photosynthesis regardless of the intensity of light. I had also assumed that with the yellowing of the leaves it was a chlorotic  problem brought on by a lack of ferts and hence I tried to increase them. Its a steep learning curve!

Would you recommend that I remove the ottos from the tank and double/triple the amount of co2 being injected. I see that in your co2 article you mention that you prefer not to have an on/off period for the Co2 and just leave it on! Would this be your recommendation here too?

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (24 Mar 2008)

Hi Denis,
              Light and CO2 uptake demand are tightly linked by an enzyme produced within the plant. As the light energy increaes, so must the enzyme whose job it is to collect the CO2 and strip the carbon. If there is more light energy than the available carbon the plant disintegrates as it attempts to canabalize itself to recycle as much of the available compounds. 
"X" amount of light requires at least "X" amount of CO2, "Y" amount of light requires at least "Y" amount of CO2. You've exceed the threshold of light for the level of CO2 in the tank so you must either lower the light or increase the CO2. My personal choice would be to move the fish if you have an alternative home for them, clean as much of the algae by hand, do 2 or 3 water changes per week (dosing after each change) and pummel the tank with CO2 and EI level of nutrients. After 6-8 weeks you will have generated enough plant mass and bacteria mass, the dust will have settled and the plants will be well established and growing. You can then reassess to lower the light and/or to fine tune the dosing scheme. The thing is that these factors are all linked. Light creates demand for CO2 which in turn creates demand for nutrients.

The current situation is that as the plants disintegrate they eject whatever nutrients they have accumulated (as well as ammonia) into the water column. The ammonia in the precesnce of light triggers the algal bloom. When the bllom occurs the algae then feeds on the nutrients that are present. There is an optical illusion in which many people think that the nutrients caused the algae but as you yourself can attest, you started seeing algae and then you got the fish, remember? That means the tank was on the decline way before you added more nutrients.

It is a steep learning curve, no doubt but I'm convinced that EI plus massive CO2 is the best way to go. It's always going to be difficult with such low plant mass. Healthy plants remove ammonia from the water and deterrs the algae. Plants in poor condition due to starvation _release _ammonia into the water.

In the CO2 article I mentioned that ON/OFF is optional to 24Hrs which is less compllicated since there is no need for a solenoid. I actually prefer ON/OFF because it allows you to inject higher daytime CO2 levels while giving the fish a rest at night when the plants cannot use CO2 but do consume O2. If you have a solenoid then ON/OFF is the way to go.

Keep reading mate, the curve flattens a bit after we unlearn the myths and realize the truth.

Cheers,


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## Denis C. (24 Mar 2008)

Thanks again Clive (I hope its Clive? ) for all the information and support. I didn't get a chance to shift the Otto's today due to being on a mountain all day, but I did undertake your first suggestion and reduced the level of light for the time being. I switched off both the 2OW T4's and I returned home this evening to find that algae growth was minimal and the plants looked slightly healthier in term of colouration. Hopefully I will get the fish moved tomorrow, I'm going to turn on one of the T4's in the front of the tank and see if enough Co2 can be injected to cope with that amount of light intensity and I can take it from there. 

Thanks again, now I'm off the remove some hair algae with a tooth brush!


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## ceg4048 (24 Mar 2008)

Hi Denis,
             Yes it says Clive right here on my electricity bill.  I guess you get your aquascape inspiration from climbing the mountains and checking the view? Cool. 8)  With nutrient dosing, CO2, manual removal and water changes I have no doubt the plant mass will fill in. It may take a couple of weeks because hair algae is tenacious once formed. 

I would avoid yo-yoing the light and CO2, as this trigers a different species of algae. Settle on a light level and drive your dropchecker far into the yellow region as soon as the fish are out of there.  

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (25 Mar 2008)

I missed this one but looks a cool setup Denis.

I tried PPs-Pro for about a month when I switched from EI ( I wanted to reduce water changes) and guess what......My plants suffered the same as yours under only 1.5WPG T5HO!!! (Only 0.9WPG for all but 2 hours of a 10 hours photoperiod)

I switched to JamesC's PMDD+P formula on this webstie and never looked back:

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/PMDD.htm

I used this for approx 3 months and it works very well.  I have now gone onto just TPN+ to try this out as I am getting lazier and lazier. lol

I also have PC Fans added to mine for the summer as last year the tank water temp reached 31ÂºC and I don't want that again.  Therefore I have 3 x 40mm fans cut into the side of mine all running at full 12V but only when the weather is hot.  And yes they are as loud as the coputer with 4 MSN messengers open. lol

Hope your scape turns out as well as the mods you have done.

Andy


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## Denis C. (28 Apr 2008)

Well its creeping up on a month since I last posted an update regarding this tank so I thought it about time to give a brief overview of what has been going on. It been a very busy month for me so I haven't had a lot of time to work on the tank and I was away for 12 days which didn't help matters at all. 

In my absence a member of my family decided to "help" the tank and in doing so, turned off the co2, caused a leak in the external filter plumbing and before anyone noticed the tank emptied itself onto the floor and into a room down stairs. I arrived back to a half empty tank and a giant mass of algae. However, all was back to normal after an evening of maintenance of repair. But my carpet sinks of fish tank water! plus I have to paint an entire ceiling once it dries!

The biggest adjustments I made was to remove the _Lilaeopsis brasilinesis_ from the tank apart from a small pocket on the front left hand side and in the middle of the tank. After a number of different attempts and strategies to get the brasililesis to grow I opted for the simple loser strategy of failure and replaced it with tenellus. Not only would the brasiliesis not grow but it also suffered badly from GSA and new leaves would be covered rapidly. The tenellus is growing well and the HC is beginning to close canopy and starting to form a carpet effect excluding the front right hand side of the tank. This is more than likely a result of a lack of light in the corner or poor water circulation. Hopefully it will develop in time! I am still having a small problem with hair algae on the HC but it is beginning to reduce as the level of plant biomass in the tank increases. I also reduced the level of co2 and fert input so I could reintroduce the ottos to help with the GSA on the tenellus leaves. Hopefully in another month with more biomass in the tank I will be able to reach a decent co2, nutrient balance in the tank and things will look a lot lusher than they do at the moment. 

Regards

Denis

Picture of the tank as of today. (Sorry about the water clarity as I was removing more bralilinesis last night and it put sediment into the water column)


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## ceg4048 (28 Apr 2008)

Hi,
    It's looking better. I think it's always a mistake to add fish in order to get rid of algae. The reason is that the fish cannot solve the problem of why the algae appears and as you noted it was necessary to lower the CO2 concentration in order to accommodate them. I feel this is self defeating. GSA is telling you that the plants are in a PO4 shortage so doubling your PO4 is the best way to resolve this, not adding fish. Also as your biomass increases the nutrient and CO2 demand will increase so this has to be accounted for. Hair algae could very likely increase, especially since you have now reduced the CO2.

Cheers,


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## George Farmer (28 Apr 2008)

Denis C. said:
			
		

>



That's a refreshing change to the 'regular' iwagumis I see.  Very nice. 

Good luck with the algae.  I've found regular dosing of Easylife Easycarbo or Seachem Excel very useful in the short term, but as Clive suggests, you need to resolve CO2 and other nutrients for long term algae control.


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## Themuleous (29 Apr 2008)

Looks good 

Sam


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## LondonDragon (29 Apr 2008)

Looking great, that would make a nice tank for my cherries hehe you taking offers?


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## TDI-line (30 Apr 2008)

Very impressive, nice work.


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## Steve Smith (30 Apr 2008)

Looks great, well recovered!


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## Denis C. (30 Apr 2008)

Thanks for the comments folks and particularly to you, Clive, for his constant input and advice. I have one or two question, the first is regarding the PO4 and the best method to make it water soluble in the fert mixture. As clive mentioned GPA is partly a result of insufficient PO4, could this lack of Po4 be a result of the particles in the ferts mixture being to large and thus does not dissolve into the water column adequately. When I was making up the ferts mixture I used a pestle and mortar to grind the Potassium Phosphate but although it was turned into a powder it hasn't really diluted into the mix and after a new of hours settles on the bottom of the 500ml drinks bottle that I use to hold the mix. Can people recommend a better way of dissolving the PO4, making it more available for the plants to sequester.

The second is that my water clarity has turned to pea soup while I was away. This is more than likely a result of the filter being turned off for three days in my absence. It is more green than white so I recon its an algae bloom in the water column! What is the best method of clearing this problem or will it go away with time. I don't want to buy a UV sterilizer, therefore other options would be gratefully appreciated. 

I'm also toying with the idea of moving the light kit back to the position it used to be in as I think it looks a lot fancier and is better proportioned.

Old height




New Height (You can also see the green tinge in the water)




Regards

Denis


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## ceg4048 (30 Apr 2008)

Hi Denis,
              You're very welcome!  I'm sure we can whip that tank into shape! I guess I'm not really sure exactly how you are preparing your mixture but KH2PO4 is a fairly soluble powder so if you are having trouble dissolving it you should just add more water to your solution. If for example you prepare a 500ml solution and you intend to dose say, 50ml per dose, then just add another 500ml to it (giving 1 Liter) and then dose 100ml instead. You should never have to grind any of these powders up with a mortar&pestle.   In any case if you were to shake up the bottle and dose the particles will immediately dissolve in the tank within 5 seconds. You need to use a large quantity for your solutions, or make up a shorter term solutions with less powders. If you check the Dry Dosing article=>http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211 you'll see where I gave the standard example for a 4 week dosing supply for a 20 USG tank. You would scale everything linearly for your size tank but at 74L you can use the numbers directly. Here is an excerpt from the article which you can use without any modification:

NPK (Nitrogen+Phosphorus+Potassium) Mixture for 20 Gallon Tank
1 month = 4 Weeks
3 doses of NPK per week
Therefore there are 12 doses of NPK per month.
Multiply a single dose teaspoon value by 12 => [3/16 tsp KNO3]*12 = 2 Â¼ tsp KNO3
[1/16 tsp KH2PO4]*12 = Â¾ tsp KH2PO4
[1/2 tsp MgSO4]*12 = 6 tsp MgSO4
Add these to 600ml of tap or distilled water

Now this mixture must serve 12 doses so each dose is 600ml/12 = 50ml
This makes life easier because you need only dose 50ml of this NPK solution 3 times per week.

Always separate the CSM+B from the NPK because it has a tendency to react with the phosphate. You can dose the CSM+B as a powder or if it more convenient add 8 * 1/16 tsp => Â½ teaspoon to 300 ml of water and dose 25 ml two times per week.
Naturally, the mixture scales in the same way. If the tank is twice as large than you would add twice as much powder to you 600ml of water and so on. 

Green water seldom goes away by itself. If you don't want to buy a UV then you'll have to do massive multiple water changes per week combined with better dosing and stable CO2. That's the brute force method but it will take some time I'm afraid. UV _is_ the best method actually.

I hate to rain on your parade but that thing about lowering the light fixture? Major, major bad idea right now with rampant algae problems I reckon. If anything you should move it up by about a meter _away_ from the tank because light is algae's second best friend, remember? Well...a meter is an exaggeration but you get the picture, right?  

Have a think on the above and let us know if there is anything unclear.

Cheers,


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## Ray (30 Apr 2008)

If you've not added any fish yet couldn't you clear green water with daphnia?  I did this many many years ago in a pond, took a couple of weeks for thier population to get big enough but it worked!  Bag of daphnia would certainly be cheaper than a UV steriliser!


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## Steve Smith (30 Apr 2008)

And a nice tasty meal for new fish   Thats a great idea


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## Denis C. (1 May 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> but KH2PO4 is a fairly soluble powder so if you are having trouble dissolving it you should just add more water to your solution.



I made a bit of a mistake with the chemical abbreviations, it is not the KH2PO4 ( Potassium Phosphate ) that was not dissolving, it was the K2SO4 (Potassium Sulphate) that I was having the problem with. I was using a course form of sulphate of potash as a substitute and it required a lot of grinding in order for it to become remotely water soluble. However, on reading your suggested ferts mixture below it doesn't look like the K2SO4 is even required! 

The DIY solution I am using at the moment is as follows mixed with 500ml of water

K2So4 = 29g
KNo3 = 33g
KH2Po4 = 4g (It was recommend that I added a gram to help with GSA)
MgSo4 = 20g

However, your suggested mixture looks a lot simpler and easier to put into practice.



> UV _is_ the best method actually.



Should have one shortly as originally I thought that they cost more than they actually do.



> lowering the light fixture? Major, major bad idea right now with rampant algae problems



Sorry my wording and labelling was misleading, what I was trying to suggest was that I was going to move the light back to the position it was in originally (as in the empty tank picture above). i.e. higher than it is at the moment which is shown in the picture below the empty tank. 

Thanks for the suggestion of using daphnia to solve the algae bloom but I have enough on my plate at the moment without added more elements to the setup.

Regards

Denis


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## ceg4048 (1 May 2008)

Hi Denis,
             Whew, OK, yeah moving the fixture to the original position is a good thing.   Definitely ditch the K2SO4. You have enough K in the KNO3 to satisfy the K requirements. There is sufficient  sulfur in tap water and especially in the MgSO4 so really it's redundant. Life is complicated enough so I'm all for simplifying as much as possible. You can just use the UV for 2-3 days and then remove it, or leave it on if it doesn't affect your flow rate too much. Once your dosing is up to par the green water should not return.

Cheers,


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## Denis C. (22 May 2008)

Howdy, another quick update regarding the tank. Its all beginning to run smoothly, I've reached a nice balance in terms of lights, co2 and fertz and as a result algae is now literally non existent. The HC has all but carpeted the bottom of the tank and the tennelus is growing rampantly.


I also added a few shrimp

4 x Sun-Kissed shrimp and 5 x amano Shrimp. The ghost shrimp are breeding and there are two females holding eggs in their undercarriage. When I stopped the filter today to take photographs I noticed 100's of small white creatures moving around the tank. I will post a snap later. I though however that juvenile shrimp need salt water to survive? I don't hold any hope of them surviving as the 12 times water turn over in the tank should suck up all those little shrimplets in no time at all.

















Regards

Denis


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## ceg4048 (22 May 2008)

Wow    Nice one mate! Isn't it cool to actualize your vision? Impressive stuff.

Cheers,


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## Luketendo (22 May 2008)

Looking very good .


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## LondonDragon (22 May 2008)

Looks brilliant  Congrate dude


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## aaronnorth (22 May 2008)

Some great pics there


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## Steve Smith (22 May 2008)

Looking lovely there mate   I know Amano shrimps need brackish for the shrimplets to grow, not sure about ghost shrimp (or are they the same thing more or less?)


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## Denis C. (10 Jul 2008)

Hi folks, 

It's been a while since I've had a chance to visit the forum and the same goes for looking after the tank that this thread in based on. I started a new job in June and as a result the amount of time that I have been able to allocate to my fish and tank has diminished. I ran out of co2 well over a month ago and because the refilling shop doesn't open on weekends I haven't been able to get any. As a result I have had to reduced the light and fert input to a minimum since then and the tank has been left to tick over slowly. This seems to have worked for the time being but I would like to get the tank back up to full speed. I will be getting co2 tomorrow and I have set aside some time on the weekend for a major trim.

My big question is regarding the tennelus and how it should be trimmed. I have only trimmed minor bits of tennelus since I started this tank but I would ideally like to remove all of the tennelus leaves back to the root to allow for completely new growth. Is this possible or would it kill the entire plant. The reason why I would like to remove the leaves is that some are broken, discoloured, have old GSP (now brown), look old and in general look rather shabby. 

Any suggestions would be gratefully appreciated. 

Here is a picture as of this evening.

Regards, 

Denis


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## Garuf (10 Jul 2008)

She's beautiful! I've got tennelus and find ripping out old plants works best, you can trim the leaves back provided you get back to the very bottom of the leaf.


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## tanker (28 Jul 2008)

wow, it looks great. despite all the problems you've been through! great job
you're my new inspiration.


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## Themuleous (2 Aug 2008)

Quality 

Sam


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## LondonDragon (2 Aug 2008)

Nice tank Denis, any more developments since the last post?


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