# Ph 8.2



## Tom707 (2 Aug 2015)

Hey still learning here and I'm struggling with growing plants, I have Eco complete as my substrate, T5 lights, I use flourish excel (recommended by my LFS) but my plants are brittle and yellow after a couple of weeks. I was told the plants I have (Anubias, Amazon sword, a stem plant, and a grassy type plant) wouldn't need CO2 injected to grow well, so the only conclusion I can come to is that the ph is too high. Any help would be much appreciated as there's too much for me to sift through online with my limited knowledge of the subject 





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## Andy D (2 Aug 2015)

What are you feeding them?

How long are the lights on for?


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## Tom707 (2 Aug 2015)

Dose flourish excel and whatever they get from the substrate my Amazon sword also gets root tabs. 
The lights are on a timer and are on for 8 hours 


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## Andy D (2 Aug 2015)

The plants will need additional food, especially when dosing excel. 

I would check out Tropica Specialised, TNC Complete or you can mix you own ferts (check out the sponsors - http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html). 

I would also reduce the lighting period to 5/6 hours to reduce the demands being made by the plants.


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## Tom707 (2 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE="Andy D, post: 409628, member: 

I would check out Tropica Specialised, TNC Complete or you can mix you own ferts (check out the sponsors - http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/starter-kits/ei-starter-kit.html). 
Thanks for the advice learning a lot via this forum, out of the two ferts which would you recommend, I see the TNC comes in a light version as well, would that be the better option as a have a few fish in my tank 


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## Andy D (2 Aug 2015)

TNC Complete would be better especially as the fish stock is low. TNC Complete contains macro (nitrate, phosphorus and potassium) ferts that TNC light does not. When you enrich a tank with carbon via CO2 injection or a liquid product like Excel you increase the demand for macro nutrients. Shortfalls in these nutrients can result in symptoms like the yellowing leaves you have.

TNC light is really for tanks with a small plant mass and/or high fish load and without a source of carbon added. Tanks set up in this manor rarely suffer a macro nutrient deficiency as they get their macro ferts from the nitrogen cycle, fish food and fish waste. The demand is also much lower in the first place. Tanks like these though do tend to suffer from micro nutrient shortfalls as these are not as readily available from other sources. This is where TNC light comes in. 

In terms of which one to go for I will have to let you decide. I have used both. TNC Complete is much better value for money but I find I have marginally better results with Tropica Specialised. How big is the tank?


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## Tom707 (2 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> TNC Complete would be better especially as the fish stock is low. TNC Complete contains macro (nitrate, phosphorus and potassium) ferts that TNC light does not. When you enrich a tank with carbon via CO2 injection or a liquid product like Excel you increase the demand for macro nutrients. Shortfalls in these nutrients can result in symptoms like the yellowing leaves you have.
> 
> TNC light is really for tanks with a small plant mass and/or high fish load and without a source of carbon added. Tanks set up in this manor rarely suffer a macro nutrient deficiency as they get their macro ferts from the nitrogen cycle, fish food and fish waste. The demand is also much lower in the first place. Tanks like these though do tend to suffer from micro nutrient shortfalls as these are not as readily available from other sources. This is where TNC light comes in.
> 
> In terms of which one to go for I will have to let you decide. I have used both. TNC Complete is much better value for money but I find I have marginally better results with Tropica Specialised. How big is the tank?



The tank is 125 litres with about 16 fish in there and  I only have about four to five different plants in there. I plan on putting more in once I find a balance and start getting results. So should I still dose flourish excel once I start using one of those fertilisers? Thanks for your help by the way 


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## Andy D (2 Aug 2015)

Juwel Rio by any chance?

I would continue with the excel. I assume you dose this daily? You should dose the ferts daily as well. I would take the weekly amount and divide by seven and dose. As the plant mass increases (or it you still see signs of nutrient deficiency) then I would up the dose. 

Large weekly water changes will also help.


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## Tom707 (2 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> Juwel Rio by any chance?
> 
> I would continue with the excel. I assume you dose this daily? You should dose the ferts daily as well. I would take the weekly amount and divide by seven and dose. As the plant mass increases (or it you still see signs of nutrient deficiency) then I would up the dose.
> 
> Large weekly water changes will also help.



Lol yeah thought that would be a good tank to start off with, I dose every other day and I do around 20-30% water changes a week, I will go out and get some fert this week, will my Amazon sword come back from being yellow and brittle or will I need to purchase a new one and start again? 


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## Andy D (2 Aug 2015)

Give it time. They do tend to do this when first submersed and should grow new leaves. 

Remove the leaf if it continues to decline.


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## Tom707 (2 Aug 2015)

Cheers, thanks for your help 


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## Andy D (2 Aug 2015)

No worries. Keep us updated!


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## Tom707 (5 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> No worries. Keep us updated!


Got myself some tropica premium instead as my tank has enough fish for me to warrant not getting the specialised version, I'll give it a couple of weeks maybe a month and then I'll let you know how things have progressed (hopefully)


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## Andy D (5 Aug 2015)

Ok. Just beware that this lacks macro nutrients so keep an eye on those plants. 

I look forward to the updates.


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## Tom707 (5 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> Ok. Just beware that this lacks macro nutrients so keep an eye on those plants.
> 
> I look forward to the updates.



Was I mis-informed about having enough fish to provide what specialised contained? As I believe the only difference is premium doesn't contain nitrogen and phosphor which fish provide through waste. If I don't get the results I'm after I'll order some of the specialised and see how I get on. 


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## Andy D (5 Aug 2015)

Tom707 said:


> Was I mis-informed about having enough fish to provide what specialised contained? As I believe the only difference is premium doesn't contain nitrogen and phosphor which fish provide through waste. If I don't get the results I'm after I'll order some of the specialised and see how I get on.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




See post #6

Tropica Premium is similar to TNC Light.

You may be fine. Just monitor the plants. If they stay healthy then great!


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## Tom707 (5 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> See post #6
> 
> Tropica Premium is similar to TNC Light.
> 
> You may be fine. Just monitor the plants. If they stay healthy then great!



I believe for the tank I have my fish stock is quite high that was what influenced my decision, thanks for the advice I will keep you posted 


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## Tom707 (7 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> See post #6
> 
> Tropica Premium is similar to TNC Light.
> 
> You may be fine. Just monitor the plants. If they stay healthy then great!



Hey me again wanting some more advise/info 



That plant has been in the tank for three weeks and is starting to get a build up of some sort of algae, any idea what I'm doing wrong or if that's normal, or anything I can do to rectify it 


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## Tom707 (21 Aug 2015)

Still struggling with my plants and finding out what's the best course of action




As you can see the leaves are browning at the edges and the leaves themselves are brittle. 
I've taken advice and been adding tropica premium once a week after a 40-50% WC and dosing flourish excel (one cap) every other day been doing this for about three weeks and nothing's improved, am I just being impatient or is there anything else I could do, any help would be appreciated thanks 


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## Martin in Holland (22 Aug 2015)

If you have to much light on a low tech tank the uptake demand for CO2 is higher than you could ever provide with excel...high light asks plants to grow faster, but without prober building blocks to do that they will suffer. Lower your light to 5-6 hours per day and less intensive (T5's are powerful), cut away damaged leaves as they won't recover and only give you more trouble in the form of to much organic waste in your tank. Swords like some fertz at their feet, maybe after a few week add some root taps if needed. Hope everything recovers fast, but in low tech it can take more time.


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## Tom707 (22 Aug 2015)

Martin in China said:


> If you have to much light on a low tech tank the uptake demand for CO2 is higher than you could ever provide with excel...high light asks plants to grow faster, but without prober building blocks to do that they will suffer. Lower your light to 5-6 hours per day and less intensive (T5's are powerful), cut away damaged leaves as they won't recover and only give you more trouble in the form of to much organic waste in your tank. Swords like some fertz at their feet, maybe after a few week add some root taps if needed. Hope everything recovers fast, but in low tech it can take more time.



Thanks for the advice I'll drop the lighting period down to six as changing them out isn't an option at the minute and I'll see how I get on, already putting root tabs in under the swords, next time when I upgrade gonna try a dirted tank I think and cut my water with RO as its really hard here and is probably contributing to my plants decline 


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## Martin in Holland (22 Aug 2015)

You do not need to change them.....just cover parts of the tubes with aluminum kitchen foil will be enough (that's what I did and still have)


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## Martin in Holland (22 Aug 2015)

Try the duckweed index..this helps to see very fast if you have enough nutrients (or to much) and light


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## Tom707 (22 Aug 2015)

Martin in China said:


> Try the duckweed index..this helps to see very fast if you have enough nutrients (or to much) and light



Duckweed index?
Tried finding some info before asking 


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## Andy D (22 Aug 2015)

Tom707 said:


> I've taken advice and been adding tropica premium once a week after a 40-50% WC and dosing flourish excel (one cap) every other day been doing this for about three weeks and nothing's improved.



Maybe try Specialised now as I suggested. 

Duckweed index - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?threads/Low-maintainence,-long-term-sustrate.14400/


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## Tom707 (22 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> Maybe try Specialised now as I suggested.
> 
> Duckweed index - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?threads/Low-maintainence,-long-term-sustrate.14400/



Hahaha fair one, I was just impatient and they had premium in store, just read up on it don't think my tank would do well with duckweed it would just clog up my internal filter unless I can make a partition or something like that 


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## Andy D (22 Aug 2015)

Don't actually use duckweed as its a nightmare to get rid off. 

Try Water Lettuce or Frogbit.


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## Tom707 (22 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> Don't actually use duckweed as its a nightmare to get rid off.
> 
> Try Water Lettuce or Frogbit.



I put five bits of water lettuce in three weeks ago and it's all gone, my rams chewed the bottoms inbetween the roots and the leave died off, there's was literally nothing left of them after about five to six days


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## Tom707 (22 Aug 2015)

Changed the tank about a bit since we last spoke 



What do you think?


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## Martin in Holland (23 Aug 2015)

The "Duckweed index" does not need duckweed...any floating plant will do.


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## Tom707 (23 Aug 2015)

Martin in China said:


> The "Duckweed index" does not need duckweed...any floating plant will do.


I have a problem then as my water lettuce only lasted like five days, the flow of my pump just pushed it in to the corner and it was getting no light and my rams liked munching on them, any suggestions?


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## Martin in Holland (23 Aug 2015)

hmmm?...pondering....


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## Andy D (23 Aug 2015)

Do you have the straight adapter for the filter outlet? This attaches to the current outlet and directs the flow parallel to to the surface. I find this gives better flow and still agitates the surface.

I always struggled with anything but duckweed in my Juwel tanks. One thing you could try would be to add a lot of floating plants at once. It will also help cut down the light intensity.


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## Tom707 (23 Aug 2015)

Andy D said:


> Do you have the straight adapter for the filter outlet? This attaches to the current outlet and directs the flow parallel to to the surface. I find this gives better flow and still agitates the surface.
> 
> I always struggled with anything but duckweed in my Juwel tanks. One thing you could try would be to add a lot of floating plants at once. It will also help cut down the light intensity.


It came with the filter housing it comes out straight then bends off at 45degrees 
I believe I've still got some sort of nutrient deficiency as the leaves of them water lettuce just browned and turned to mush, what sort of floating plant would you suggest? Duck weed is just going to be sucked in to the top part of the filter 


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## Martin in Holland (23 Aug 2015)

Maybe just cut of that angle and make it straight. As for floaters, Limnobium laevigatum and Salvinia natans might work.


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## Tom707 (23 Aug 2015)

Martin in China said:


> Maybe just cut of that angle and make it straight. As for floaters, Limnobium laevigatum and Salvinia natans might work.


If I cut it I won't get any surface agitation, I'll have a look at them, cheers 


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## Tom707 (23 Aug 2015)

I like the first sponge plant may try that but wanna get this problem sorted first, I went for the low tech approach thinking I'd get results easier, not as easy as I first thought, going to try tropica speacilised, should I stop dosing flourish excel?


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## Martin in Holland (24 Aug 2015)

Excel only helps you, why stop?


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## Tom707 (24 Aug 2015)

Martin in China said:


> Excel only helps you, why stop?


Still unsure of the whole process but I'm getting there, may ask a stupid question from time to time but eventually I'll have happy healthy plants just need to find that balance 


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## Martin in Holland (24 Aug 2015)

there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers and I'm sure they will come...LOL


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## Tom707 (19 Sep 2015)

Martin in China said:


> there are no stupid questions, just stupid answers and I'm sure they will come...LOL



Hey was wondering if you may possibly be able to ID this type of algae I'm now starting to suffer with and suggest ways of tackling it 





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## Martin in Holland (20 Sep 2015)

BBA or BHA ...best cut of those effected leaves asap and look for possible causes (my guess is CO2 related such as; to much light, not enough flow or curent and ofcourse not enough or good injected CO2) ...spot treat any effected hard scape with excel.
You can try to spot treat the effected leaves with excel first, but very often plant do not like that and you will end up with the leave (or even the plant) dying anyway.


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## Tom707 (20 Sep 2015)

Martin in China said:


> BBA or BHA ...best cut of those effected leaves asap and look for possible causes (my guess is CO2 related such as; to much light, not enough flow or curent and ofcourse not enough or good injected CO2) ...spot treat any effected hard scape with excel.



Thank you for your response, are t5s considered high light? And I'm only adding liquid carbon at the minute so would you suggest purchasing a CO2 system 


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## Martin in Holland (20 Sep 2015)

I think I've said it before, T5's are powerful lights, but if you only have 1 T5 tube 40cm above your tank of 400 liter it wouldn't be enough....here is a graphic which come in handy for this....


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## Tom707 (20 Sep 2015)

Martin in China said:


> I think I've said it before, T5's are powerful lights, but if you only have 1 T5 tube 40cm above your tank of 400 liter it wouldn't be enough....here is a graphic which come in handy for this....



Yes you did sorry, well I have a juwel Rio 125 which comes with two t5's which are a couple of inches at most above the water line. My lights are on for 7 hours, maybe I should drop that down to five or six like you previously suggested 


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## Martin in Holland (20 Sep 2015)

Wow...2x T5 is really alot...cutting back hours will only help so much, you would do better in not just cutting down on hours but also on T5.
Use one for 2.5 - 3 hours and the other one the same without overlapping them.

I've got 1x T5 above my 300 liter tank hanging about 25cm (10 Inch) above the tank and only on for 7 hours with injecting CO2....just to give you an idea.


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## Martin in Holland (20 Sep 2015)

Sometimes your light is set to run 2 bulbs at the same time, the same is the problem with my tank, I just covered part of my T5's with alufoil .......


 
Here in my old layout, now I even covered more.
Hope this will help.


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## Ady34 (21 Sep 2015)

Hi Tom,
when using flourish excel or any other carbon source you need to dose daily. You mentioned a few times that you dose the excel every other day, but this does not work, it needs to be daily to provide the plants with carbon whilst the lights are on. This combined with reducing your lighting intensity should improve any algae outbreaks and the health of your plants.
Cheerio
Ady


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## Tom707 (21 Sep 2015)

Ady34 said:


> Hi Tom,
> when using flourish excel or any other carbon source you need to dose daily. You mentioned a few times that you dose the excel every other day, but this does not work, it needs to be daily to provide the plants with carbon whilst the lights are on. This combined with reducing your lighting intensity should improve any algae outbreaks and the health of your plants.
> Cheerio
> Ady


I started dosing daily about a month ago and since then that's when I started to get problems with this type of beard/hair algae. Not sure if it's just a coincidence or whether that's played a part im guessing not as carbon can act as an algicide if I'm not mistaken. I've dropped my lighting down to six hours removed all affected leaves and I'll see how I get on cheers for everyone's help 


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