# Starting out with Ferts on a 40gl tank



## ukco2guy (1 Jun 2010)

Hi,

I`m relatively new to planted aquariums and i have had a 40gl tank for around 5 years with just fish. So far i have purchased a co2 pressurised kit containing a Bioplast regulator, Solenoid, Needle valve and a JBL vario diffuser. The tank itself has around 20-30 plants and they have been in there for about a month but i had very low co2 levels and things were not growing that quick. Since adding the co2 the plants are all growing well but showing signs of lack of nutrients (brown edges on leaves etc) so i`m looking at getting a good fert regime in place. I have a mixture of plants such as Versalis, Anubis, Pennywort, Wysteria.

I have been using Seachem NPK, Iron and Trace twice a week but i would like to save some money and go to a dry fert solution. In my haste i have ordered the following (and should arrive this week) as i have seen alot of talk relating to the following:

1 x Potassium Nitrate - 250g (AEN0)
1x Trace Mix Plus - 250g (TMP250)
1 x Storage Container (Buy 1 get 1 free) - Large x 4 Pack (AM8158)
1x AE Design 4 dKH Solution - 250ml (2504dKH) 
1 x Dispensing Bottle 500ml (SNDCRC) 
1x Mono Potassium Phosphate - 250g (AEKP0)

First off are these the rights items and can you guys advise me of a good fert regime for these, or have i ordered the wrong items ? I presume that EI would be a good regime but again i`m unsure. Please excuse my lack of understanding, their is alot for me to learn and although reading through alot of articles on here i`m still confused.

Many thanks,


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## ceg4048 (1 Jun 2010)

Hi,
   If you study the EI dosing article http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211 you'll find, near the bottom, a paragraph entitled "NPK (Nitrogen+Phosphorus+Potassium) Mixture for 20 Gallon Tank".

This gives you instructions for sample mixtures, a macro mix and a trace mix. There's really no need to re-invent the wheel and you can simply multiply the dosages for your size tank. A 40 G tank get's twice the dosage as a 20G. Round up or down to simplify.

Add 4Â½ teaspoons KNO3 + 2 teaspoons KH2PO4 to your dispensing bottle and fill with water. This is a 1 month supply and it will be dosed 3X per week. Therefore there will be 12 doses in this bottle. If that's the case each dose will be 500ml/12 = 40ml approx.

For the trace mix, add 2 teaspoons trace to a separate 500ml bottle, fill with water. Traces are only dosed 2X per week (8X per month) so the dosage would be 500/8= 60ml per dose approx.

Again, I refer you to the article which offers a sample dosing regimen:
Sunday â€“ 50% or more Water Change then dose 40ml NPK mix
Monday â€“ 60 ml Trace mix
Tuesday - dose 40ml NPK mix
Wednesday - 60 ml Trace mix
Thursday - dose 40ml NPK mix
Friday â€“ Rest
Saturday â€“ Rest

This regimen assume you are using tap water in your tank. If for some reason you are using RO water then you need to ensure that you have sufficient Calcium and Magnesium.

Study the dosing article to get a better understanding of what it is that you are actually doing instead of just blindly copying numbers. This will enable you to understand how and why you can deviate from these baseline numbers and to understand the ramifications.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (1 Jun 2010)

First off thanks for your reply, it really is appreciated. I will try and get my head around the article so i don`t have to rely on the forum too much but if i do get stuck i`ll ask. Looking at the above i presume that i purchased the correct type of powders and should be able to get going with that, Just need another 500ml bottle, knew i should have bought two! 

Can i ask if the tea spoons are exact (flat) or just a regular scoop (so to speak) and the tap water that i`ll be adding is that to be warm or does it not matter what the temperature is?

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (1 Jun 2010)

Hi

Just put your spoon into the dry fertz and lift out - thats your spoon full, as for mixing use warm water as it helps dissolve the powder especially the KNo3 & Khpo4 & Mgso4 as there are more of a grain (like sugar) rather than a powder.

Regards
Paul.


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## ukco2guy (1 Jun 2010)

Ok that`s great, i know it`s probably a silly question but i thought i`d check first. After a while of getting used to the tank, regimes, maintenance etc i`m sure it`ll all come together!

Cheers


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## ukco2guy (14 Jun 2010)

Hi,

Forgot to mention before, is there a specific temperature when storing the pre-made bottles of ferts? At the moment they are sat in the cupboard under the tank, should i be storing them in a cooler place like the fridge?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (14 Jun 2010)

The bottles should be stored in a cool dry place, so the fridge should be fine. Sometimes mould appears in the bottles if they sit around for a long time in warm temperatures.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (14 Jun 2010)

Thanks for the reply Clive, i have been using the figures you suggested above as a start, already things are looking much greener and seem to be growing well. I have since completely replanted the tank and turned over / cleaned the substrate as it`s been in there for 5 years, the amount of dirt etc was immense but hopefully the plants will benefit from the re-positioning / cleaner substrate. I`m wondering about getting a 4ft Arcadia with 4xt5`s to replace the standard pair of t8 38w lights that i currently have, if i do and i appreciate that their will alot more light than before should i introduce it with say 2x lights first then switch on the 2nd pair after a couple of weeks?

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (14 Jun 2010)

Yes, I certainly would. You know the drill by now. More light -> more CO2/flow, more attention to distribution. Introduce the second pair a few hours at a time per day...

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (10 Jul 2010)

Hi all,

I have been using the dry ferts for just over 3 weeks now from the original doses using Seachem products. I am mixing 4 1/2 teaspoons of KNO3 and 2 teaspoons of KH2PO4 for the Macros and 2 Teaspoons of trace CSM+B (i think) both into separate 500ml bottles and dosing macro`s at 3 times per week with the trace 2 times per week. In the last week or so i have started getting alot of holes appering on most of my plants (anubis, swords). Am i right in thinking i have a potassium deficiency? Can anyone advise on how i start to prove that this is the case or any recommendations on possibly changing my fert amount? Should i top up the potassium with some of the Seachem that i have?

Many thanks,


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## ceg4048 (10 Jul 2010)

Assuming the holes are not due to animal predation, there is no way you can have a K deficiency if you are dosing EI levels of KNO3 and KH2PO4, since these salts are mostly K. If you wanted to add more K then you'd just add more of either or both.

Holes in plants are typically due to poor CO2, therefore take a close look at your injection rate and flow/distribution.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (10 Jul 2010)

Hi Clive,

Ah that old case of co2 again, possibly. I have my diffuser sat next to an internal filter (still migrating the external eheim) but it`s not in the direct path of the outlet of the internal filter, i`m wondering then should i move that around so that it`s pushed across the tank providing better distribution? 

CO2 is set to 2 bubbles per second and according to my drop checker (located at the opposite end of the tank to the diffuser) it goes a nice pale green colour when it should, then drops back to blue when co2 is off. Although i cannot prove it`s 25-30ppm going by what i`ve seen so far it`s doing it`s job.. I have also just installed a new eheim compact 1000 which i`m using to aid with flow until i can afford a pair of 3 series eheims.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (10 Jul 2010)

Yes, you have to think about the fact that you have a higher plant mass now than you did three weeks ago. More plant mass not only consumes more CO2, but it also blocks more flow, so you have to make the adjustments and not be hypnotized by the bubble rate or the dropchecker color. You probably only need a minor injection rate increase but these are the early signs that your flow/distribution may be suspect. Change things around to see if you can get better movement. This is another reason why we like the 10X rule. It may seem excessive in the beginning but as the tank grows in then the benefits become apparent.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (11 Jul 2010)

Hi,

I have done the Sunday maintenance and so have moved the co2 diffuser infront of the outlet of the internal filter. I have also made some adjustments to the spray bar as it was too high and causing ripples on the surface (might be the behind the co2 issue). The powerhead is installed and to me it looks like their is good flow around the whole of the tank so i`m going to see how that gets on over the next couple of week, i`m also going to turn the co2 valve up to 3 bubbles/sec. As most of the swords have alot of holes throughout the leaves i have removed them completely and also most of the wysteria has had to be taken out, the bottom of the stems have rotted and i don`t think i can save them so plant density at the moment is pretty low with only crypts, versallis and pennywort in there, should i re-think my co2 with few amounts of plants in there?

Ferts wise, i have made this months bottles up but i have added the same amount as per the previous month based on  your initial recommendations, i figure it`s best to change the co2/flow for now before making too many changes. The only thing i have added on top is 5ml of Seachem Iron as in the past that helped with some yellowing that i`m starting to have again.

Appreciate your time on helping so far.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (11 Jul 2010)

Hi,
    You're welcome! As far as the spraybar placement goes, certainly it's good to try a different position, and it may even be an improvement in this case, however, typically the best place for the bar is exactly where it was. The ripples on the surface are good and absolutely cannot be blamed for your poor CO2. These ripples help to break up the oily film that tends to collect on the surface. Any time you add CO2 the vast majority of it escapes immediately as it's a gas and it heads for the surface. Only if you break the surface with air bubbles, for example, do you accelerate the CO2 loss.

When you move the spraybar lower down, then what happens is that as the jet streams make contact with the front glass, flow goes up as well as down and you lose some of the energy. When the bar is at the very top the surface acts as a barrier and the flow then tends to be forced downwards, which is what you are trying to accomplish.

The rotted stems absolutely confirm the initial assessment of poor CO2. This is a serious flaw in CO2 application. Is it possible you also have too much light? Any structural failure of plants (holes, mushiness, browning, rotting, distortion, black/brown spots, translucency) is directly attributable to poor CO2/flow/distribution relative to the lighting level. If your plant density is low then this will help the recovery as there will not be as much blockage and there will be more CO2 available for the plants that remain. Take note that you always need to increase the CO2 as the plants grow. It's almost a Catch-22. Rethinking CO2 really means rethinking the combination of injection rate, the filter flow rate and lighting. These parameters are inextricably interrelated. 

You are wise to not be too concerned with the fert values and to instead concentrate on CO2/flow. Nutrient dosing is easy - CO2/flow not so...

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (22 Aug 2010)

Hi,

It`s been a few weeks now since updating my progress. I have had good success with plant growth but not so good with keeping it under control / tidy. The recent melting of roots etc has stopped and all appears well, it`s just looking untidy and i`m not sure on how to deal with this, i think it needs a good re-scape and i`m hoping that you guys can make some suggestions. I have continued with all the advice so far from Clive, flow is good, co2 has been raised to 3b/sec from the original 2 and i`ve switch to a 5KG FE so i should have pleanty of time left before another refill is due  I`m about to switch from the Eheim 2224 to an Aqua One Aquis 1050 and also remove the internal fluval 4 so i just run the tank off the Aquis and an additional Eheim 600 pump to aid flow in the dead spots. I have also increased the dry ferts by 1/2 teaspoon on both Macro`s and the CSMB+ as i think with the higher plant mass their was not quite enough to go round (please correct me if i made the wrong move, it`s still based on 40ml macro/day x3 per week and 60ml csmb+/day x2 per week.

This week i have noticed that one of my crypts has started melting, i have not made that many changes apart from raising the co2 and also storing my HC in a hatchery (as the botia`s took a shine to it, this is to go in my Iwagumi tank).

Pics as below:
http://img163.imageshack.us/i/img4028x.jpg/
http://img340.imageshack.us/i/img4029xl.jpg/

Cheers,


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (22 Aug 2010)

ukco2guy said:
			
		

> Hi,
> This week i have noticed that one of my crypts has started melting,
> Cheers,



Ukco2guy

I would not worry to much about the melt: just think of it as the plant is shedding is oldest leafs - just like the plants / tree's do outside. No matter what you do a leaf is not going to last forever.

Regards
paul.


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## ceg4048 (23 Aug 2010)

ukco2guy said:
			
		

> This week i have noticed that one of my crypts has started melting, i have not made that many changes apart from raising the co2....


As irritating as this may be, this tells you that you still need to continue improvements to CO2.

Cheers,


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## ukco2guy (23 Aug 2010)

Hi,

Ok mate, i`ll look into it, it`s about to be switched to a Hydor inline diffuser so hopefully that will provide better coverage. The Aquis went in last night and the dual spray bars that it came with seem to provide much better coverage across the tank than the Eheim did so we`ll see what happens. I am going to stick to this method as since changing over to this i have had Zero algae and most ofthe tank has grown well, just the maintenance and pruning that i need guidance with 

Cheers,


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