# Need help with Lush Max ferts



## bhavik (20 Apr 2017)

As anyone used Lush max ferts from eBay?
I need help with it as it doesn't seem to be working for me at all 
Anyone else has this experience?


----------



## bhavik (21 Apr 2017)

Can some one please help me with this!


----------



## dw1305 (21 Apr 2017)

Hi all,





bhavik said:


> As anyone used Lush max ferts from eBay?
> I need help with it as it doesn't seem to be working for me at all
> Anyone else has this experience?


I haven't used it, but it is meant to be a complete "all in one" mix, so it is likely to be a solubility issue.

Do you have very hard tap water?

cheers Darrel


----------



## bhavik (21 Apr 2017)

Hi there appreciate the reply!

Yeah that's why I ended up buying it but didnt seem to work even when I started putting in a crazy amount

I was thinking it might be that as I do have a clay/muddy substance let at the bottom of the bottle when it's left alone

I do have hard water but I don't know how hard as I do have a water softer connected to my hot water


----------



## Progen (22 Apr 2017)

Suggest you test your water parameters first so you'll know how far off you are. I used to add quite a bit of baking soda to the rather acidic tap water and then started wondering why my plants were exhibiting iron deficiencies.

They're much better now that I've cut down on the soda during every water change.


----------



## bhavik (22 Apr 2017)

Hi I'm still having problem dissolving the liquid I still have a clay ish mixture at the bottom of the bottle after left to settle 

I have tried running the bottle under very hot water but didn't seem to work

What else can I do to make this dissolve?

I just wanted to ask is it easier to dissolve water in soft water compared to hard


----------



## xim (23 Apr 2017)

The powder at the bottom looks exactly like iron phosphate. This is why a high quality chelator is needed so that iron and phosphate can both dissolve without binding to each other and precipitate out. I would discard the mix because it's now practically insoluble.

The possible causes of this precipitation are low quality chelator, or the water is too hard, or they don't include something to make the solution acidic enough when hard water is used, such as ascorbic acid.

Anyway in my experience, if the chelator is of low quality, even tons of ascorbic acid and distilled water won't help.


----------



## bhavik (23 Apr 2017)

xim said:


> The powder at the bottom looks exactly like iron phosphate. This is why a high quality chelator is needed so that iron and phosphate can both dissolve without binding to each other and precipitate out. I would discard the mix because it's now practically insoluble.
> 
> The possible causes of this precipitation are low quality chelator, or the water is too hard, or they don't include something to make the solution acidic enough when hard water is used, such as ascorbic acid.
> 
> Anyway in my experience, if the chelator is of low quality, even tons of ascorbic acid and distilled water won't help.



As this is a all in one ferts so would the other chemicals still work and benefit the plants?

Also I was wondering if I was to get this again would it dissolve better with the hot water coming through the water softer? Obvs it dissolve rock salt to make the water soft


----------



## xim (23 Apr 2017)

bhavik said:


> As this is a all in one ferts so would the other chemicals still work and benefit the plants?



Yes.



bhavik said:


> Also I was wondering if I was to get this again would it dissolve better with the hot water coming through the water softer? Obvs it dissolve rock salt to make the water soft



Temperature won't help prevent the precipitation, soft water might. But honestly, I would not put high hope on it.


----------



## bhavik (23 Apr 2017)

[/QUOTE]Temperature won't help prevent the precipitation, soft water might. But honestly, I would not put high hope on it.[/QUOTE]

How about if I tried filtered water? Thing is it is weird as I spoke to the seller and he said that no one had any problems with this before. It's annoying as it is convient and a cheap fertiliser that I could use 

Is there any way I get around this?

And if there is anyone else out that has been successful could you please help me out?
Thanks


----------



## Parablennius (23 Apr 2017)

Hi 
FWIW I used this and am just finishing off the first batch and had very slight precipitation as you describe. The second batch which I just mixed has more precipitation and looks just like yours. It disappears when you shake it but settles out again. My tap water is very soft, near neutral, 45ppm TDS. I have nothing to compare it to, ferts wise but just ordered a pack from APF to compare it with. 
Cheers


----------



## xim (23 Apr 2017)

Parablennius said:


> Hi
> FWIW I used this and am just finishing off the first batch and had very slight precipitation as you describe. The second batch which I just mixed has more precipitation and looks just like yours. It disappears when you shake it but settles out again. My tap water is very soft, near neutral, 45ppm TDS. I have nothing to compare it to, ferts wise but just ordered a pack from APF to compare it with.
> Cheers



If both the first batch (little precipitation) and the second batch (more precipitation) come from the same bag, it could be distribution issue. Since most of these trace mixes, CSM+B for example, are not homogenous. Different areas in the bag may contain different ratios of ingredients. And if there is not enough ascorbic acid in the area you scooped up, the solution may not be acidic enough for the chelator to function.

That being said, a bad chelator will still not function even with the aid of acid while a good chelator can do the job on its own if the water is reasonably soft. And yes, your water looks very soft.

By the way, you may try shaking the bag real good before making a batch and see if there is less precipitation.




bhavik said:


> Is there any way I get around this?



Try shaking the bag before making a batch.


----------



## bhavik (23 Apr 2017)

Parablennius said:


> Hi
> FWIW I used this and am just finishing off the first batch and had very slight precipitation as you describe. The second batch which I just mixed has more precipitation and looks just like yours. It disappears when you shake it but settles out again. My tap water is very soft, near neutral, 45ppm TDS. I have nothing to compare it to, ferts wise but just ordered a pack from APF to compare it with.
> Cheers



hi there thanks for that appreciate you replying. How would you say the Lush max is working for you and even with the precipitation would you say that it benefits your plants?
im sorry i dont understand you bought APF? whats that? and is that from ebay and is that any good? 


xim said:


> If both the first batch (little precipitation) and the second batch (more precipitation) come from the same bag, it could be distribution issue. Since most of these trace mixes, CSM+B for example, are not homogenous. Different areas in the bag may contain different ratios of ingredients. And if there is not enough ascorbic acid in the area you scooped up, the solution may not be acidic enough for the chelator to function.
> 
> That being said, a bad chelator will still not function even with the aid of acid while a good chelator can do the job on its own if the water is reasonably soft. And yes, your water looks very soft.
> 
> ...



Thanks ill try then next if i order another batch that is


----------



## Parablennius (24 Apr 2017)

Hi


xim said:


> If both the first batch (little precipitation) and the second batch (more precipitation) come from the same bag, it could be distribution issue. Since most of these trace mixes, CSM+B for example, are not homogenous. Different areas in the bag may contain different ratios of ingredients. And if there is not enough ascorbic acid in the area you scooped up, the solution may not be acidic enough for the chelator to function.
> 
> That being said, a bad chelator will still not function even with the aid of acid while a good chelator can do the job on its own if the water is reasonably soft. And yes, your water looks very soft.
> 
> By the way, you may try shaking the bag real good before making a batch and see if there is less precipitation.


First batch and second batch were from different packs, they appeared to mix differently is all.


bhavik said:


> hi there thanks for that appreciate you replying. How would you say the Lush max is working for you and even with the precipitation would you say that it benefits your plants?
> im sorry i dont understand you bought APF? whats that? and is that from ebay and is that any good?


I've only ever used Lushmax so have nothing to compare it to, difficult to say how well it works, which is why I ordered some complete aquatic ferts (Ebay) from APF see if I spot any difference. Tank is low-tech, Non CO2 but heavily planted and I'm exceeding the "low-tech" dose as indicated on the packet.
HTH
cheers


----------



## bhavik (24 Apr 2017)

Parablennius said:


> Hi
> 
> First batch and second batch were from different packs, they appeared to mix differently is all.
> 
> ...



Oh ok but would you say it's benefited the plant from when you didn't use the fert to now? E.g are you seeing and deficiency or anything? How much are you adding daily?
Also have you noticed your aquarium water turning slightly brownish when your add the lush max due to the percipitate?
And have you tried the lush Marco or mirco on its own?
Could you send me the link of the aquatic ferts you ordered? 

Thanks


----------



## Parablennius (24 Apr 2017)

OK Tank is only 10 months old (200L NET) so I've used lushmax from the off but have increased the dose gradually up to 5ml per day except Sat and a 30% water change Sunday. I upped it because I thought I saw potassium deficiency in H.corymbosa. Didn't notice any water browning but my top-up water if loaded with tannins so I wouldn't see it anyway. Have not used macro or micro seperately. Don't think I can link directly on here?


----------



## bhavik (24 Apr 2017)

Oh ok fair enough and so in total for the day much do you dose as mine is a 200L tank as well and just want to see if I'm dosing enough as I'm not really seeing a change with my plants 
Oh I'm not sure if you just post the name of the listing i'll have a look

Thanks


----------



## Parablennius (24 Apr 2017)

Sent PM


----------



## GreenNeedle (25 Apr 2017)

Just to clear up that these packets should mixed all as one lot and not in parts.  You will end up getting the wrong amounts of each ingredients because some are heavier than others.

There are 2 iron chelates in there.  75% is EDDHA and 25% is DTPA so there should be no problems due to the chelate.

You should however always try and use DI water because you can;t guarantee how much phosphate is in your tap water because water companies will often add phosphate to lock up iron that comes from old iron pipes in the network.  There is also some run off from fields too.

I make up the whole litre in a 1 litre bottle using DI water and then split half out into a smaller dosing bottle once it has all dissolved and leave the other half in the bottle in a dark cupboard until needed.


----------



## xim (25 Apr 2017)

It's not about the type of chelator. It's the quality of it. I had problem with 7% Fe-DTPA powder from a brand, it precipitated within minutes when mixed with KH2PO4. While Fe-EDTA, commonly regarded as inferior to DTPA, didn't have this problem. Lowering the pH, even by using distilled vinegar instead of water, just delayed the precipitation by hours.

After changing to 11% Fe-DTPA (Dissolvine D-Fe-11), all went well, no precipitation even after 4 weeks, should last longer but I used it up.


----------



## ian_m (25 Apr 2017)

xim said:


> Lowering the pH, even by using distilled vinegar instead of water, just delayed the precipitation by hours.


You must add preservative of some form as the chelated elements are a fantastic food source for microbes who will quickly start munching (within a day or two) and raising the pH and allowing the elements to unchelate,  they will then either precipitate out or provide yet more food source for happy microbes.

The graph below shows the % chelation vs pH. As you see just mixing Fe-DPTA with even slightly hard water (above 7) will allow the Fe out to react with the phosphate (or be eaten by microbes).


----------



## xim (25 Apr 2017)

ian_m said:


> You must add preservative of some form as the chelated elements are a fantastic food source for microbes who will quickly start munching (within a day or two) and raising the pH and allowing the elements to unchelate,  they will then either precipitate out or provide yet more food source for happy microbes.
> 
> The graph below shows the % chelation vs pH. As you see just mixing Fe-DPTA with even slightly hard water (above 7) will allow the Fe out to react with the phosphate (or be eaten by microbes).



Well, I know that graph well. I've been making my micro mix for nearly ten years. I have key chemicals for Fe, Mn, B, Mo, Zn, Cu, preservatives and pH adjuster in hand to create my own mix.

Anyway, the pH of the solution that the 7% Fe-DTPA got precipitated within minutes was 6. That's why I determined it was of low quality. It should not have precipitated at that pH. Using distilled vinegar in place of water in the later experiment was just to be sure that it's bad. And it was bad.

I think a good way to test if your micros is good enough is try using it to make an all-in-one. If it precipitates, that micros is not good enough even for micros-macros alternate day dosing.


----------



## GreenNeedle (25 Apr 2017)

I'm running a test at the moment on 2 seperate mixes using DTPA solely in one and the EDDHA/DTPA mix in the other.  Also using tap water  (hard Lincolnshire water here) to try and replicate the OPs problem.

Should also be noted that while tap water will be almost neutral straight out of the tap it is quite often because of the added CO2 to achieve that near neutral figure and after gas off My Tap water is 8.4 after 24 hours rather than the 7.6 straight from the tap.

Could phosphate be reacting on it's own at that high Ph without needing to react with the iron?


----------



## GreenNeedle (3 Jun 2017)

So did 4 trials:
A Tap water + EDDHA + Phos
B Tap water + DTPA + Phos
C DI water + EDDHA + Phos
D DI water + DTPA + Phos.

My tap water is good old Lincolnshire Jurassic Ridge water. 19KH!!!

A showed the reaction as described earlier within a couple of hours
B showed no reaction to date (5 weeks old now.)
C showed a reaction not as bad as A but still had a bit of that build up in the bottom after 24 hours and looks the same today.
D showed no reaction to date (5 weeks old now.)

So the poster above saying that it must be bad quality chelate must have been right.  The EEDHA is supposed to be fine up to 10Ph yet was breaking down in the hard tap water and even in the DI was not lasting.  As a result I have stopped using the EDDHA and am now using 100% DTPA.


----------



## xim (3 Jun 2017)

So the chelator problem is not limited to some DTPA, but EDDHA as well, which is good to know. I'm glad your DTPA works.


----------



## Something Fishy (1 Mar 2019)

Did you resolve this mate?

I’ve bought some and have the same issue as you. 

I’ve used deionised water as instructed but it seems to be upsetting the tank balance and not working well and water during changes is a greeny colour so I guess it’s not being used.

I’m dosing 2ml a day per 100l.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bhavik (3 Mar 2019)

Hey there unfortunately it didn’t I kinda gave up with it plus I don’t know if it was making any difference to my plants or not 

However I did try filtered boiling water that seemed to work much better than normal water so worth a shot


----------



## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

bhavik said:


> Hey there unfortunately it didn’t I kinda gave up with it plus I don’t know if it was making any difference to my plants or not
> 
> However I did try filtered boiling water that seemed to work much better than normal water so worth a shot



Interesting thank you.

Like I said I used DI as stated bought for batteries - water for them.

I might stop it for a few weeks and see if anything changes. I’ve been using it auto dosing and my fish have slowly started disappearing more and getting upset :/ a few runny nose swimming upside down etc which is bizarre. My levels for ammonia etc are all stable so this is the only difference.

Anybody else had a problem with ferts making fish die after swimming oddly? I thought it was infection so dosed the tank with anti fungal and anti bac and water changes too. Today after two weeks I noticed another Rummy Nose swimming upside down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Interesting thank you.
> 
> Like I said I used DI as stated bought for batteries - water for them.
> 
> ...



What dosage are you using and what tank size.  Are all the ingredients in your solution dissolved?  Is this freshly made with the whole packet being mixed with 1litre or are you making up smaller amounts not using the whole packet?


----------



## Something Fishy (6 Mar 2019)

SuperColey1 said:


> What dosage are you using and what tank size.  Are all the ingredients in your solution dissolved?  Is this freshly made with the whole packet being mixed with 1litre or are you making up smaller amounts not using the whole packet?



Hey!

Whole packet as per instructions with DI water. Shook till all dissolved and went black.

Day or two later it was a kinda teddy brown with sediment at the bottom so reshook it.

Same in a few days.

Tank is 80l and sump is about 40l but 30 or so full. So 110l roughly and I’m dosing 2ml every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GreenNeedle (6 Mar 2019)

Something Fishy said:


> Hey!
> 
> Whole packet as per instructions with DI water. Shook till all dissolved and went black.
> 
> ...



I've posted in your tank thread now


----------

