# Water Column / Substrate Fertilization



## jaypeecee (5 Jun 2018)

Hi Folks,

Haven't been on here for a very long time.

I have a 125 litre tropical planted tank with custom LED lighting and CO2 injection. I currently use Seachem Flourish (+ Flourish N + Flourish P, as required) but I sometimes wonder if I should also be using root feeding in the substrate. In the tank, I have several kinds of Echinodorus, Cyperus helferii and H. corymbosa. The only plant that grows well and looks healthy is the latter of these. Rarely do I see any pearling from the other plants. CO2 is around 30ppm (when stabilized) as indicated by drop checker and JBL CO2 Direct Test Kit. Lighting appears bright to the human eye but I cannot currently measure PAR. This tank has been running for eight months.

Previously, I had a tank in which root tabs made a world of difference to E. bleheri. I used the TNC brand, which provide both macro- and micro-nutrients.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

JPC


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## Edvet (5 Jun 2018)

No harm in trying, just the plants should be able to get their feed through the column just as easily. Root feeding usually helps in low fert suroundings or infrequent dosing.


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## jaypeecee (5 Jun 2018)

Edvet said:


> No harm in trying, just the plants should be able to get their feed through the column just as easily. Root feeding usually helps in low fert suroundings or infrequent dosing.


Hi Edvet,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Yes, I guess it's possible that I am not feeding sufficiently via the column. Having posted above, I re-visited my water test records and note that phosphate is consistently low when compared with the suggested nutrient levels on this site. Not only that but one of my Echinodorus (Red Devil) exhibits twisted/curling leaves which I have just discovered may indicate calcium deficiency. As my starting point is RO water, I make this up to KH (alkalinity) = 4.5dH and GH = 6dH - so calcium may be in short supply. I don't want to go down the EI route as the cost of RO water would be prohibitive. I prefer to keep water hardness low(ish) as I keep German Blue Rams but I live in the London area where tap water is hard.

JPC


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## dw1305 (6 Jun 2018)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> I have several kinds of Echinodorus, Cyperus helferii and H. corymbosa. The only plant that grows well and looks healthy is the latter of these


A picture would be useful, particularly if the plants are showing yellowing? Have a look at <"Slightly sad floating plants">





jaypeecee said:


> I re-visited my water test records and note that phosphate is consistently low when compared with the suggested nutrient levels on this site


If you are using RO you can just work out how much phosphorus (P) you've added. Testing for phosphorus (as orthophosphate PO4---) is reasonably non-problematic, but I wouldn't rely on the result as an accurate value of plant available phosphate. 





jaypeecee said:


> I prefer to keep water hardness low(ish) as I keep German Blue Rams but I live in the London area where tap water is hard.


I live in an area with hard water and keep dwarf cichlids as well, <"I've always used rain-water">, I know it isn't possible for every-one but it cuts down the expense of RO etc.





jaypeecee said:


> Not only that but one of my Echinodorus (Red Devil) exhibits twisted/curling leaves which I have just discovered may indicate calcium deficiency.


You can just cut your RO with ~10% tap to give some calcium and dGH/dKH. If you find the <"water report from your water supplier">it may also tell you how much PO4 you have in your tap supply, and it is likely to be  a reasonable amount. 





jaypeecee said:


> I make this up to KH (alkalinity) = 4.5dH and GH = 6dH - so calcium may be in short supply


What do you use to raise the dGH? if you use a calcium salt (CaCl2 etc)  you definitely don't need to add any more calcium. If you aren't adding any magnesium (Mg) (other than the small amount in the Seachem Flourish?) it might be worth adding some more, "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) are a cheap magnesium source.

You are unlikely to have much magnesium in your tap supply <"for geological reasons">, your water report probably won't give a magnesium reading.

I might also try another iron source ("Flourish" uses iron gluconate ), have a look at <"dosing a low tech on a Thames....">.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (6 Jun 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,A picture would be useful, particularly if the plants are showing yellowing? Have a look at <"Slightly sad floating plants">If you are using RO you can just work out how much phosphorus (P) you've added. Testing for phosphorus (as orthophosphate PO4---) is reasonably non-problematic, but I wouldn't rely on the result as an accurate value of plant available phosphate. I live in an area with hard water and keep dwarf cichlids as well, <"I've always used rain-water">, I know it isn't possible for every-one but it cuts down the expense of RO etc.You can just cut your RO with ~10% tap to give some calcium and dGH/dKH. If you find the <"water report from your water supplier">it may also tell you how much PO4 you have in your tap supply, and it is likely to be  a reasonable amount. What do you use to raise the dGH? if you use a calcium salt (CaCl2 etc)  you definitely don't need to add any more calcium. If you aren't adding any magnesium (Mg) (other than the small amount in the Seachem Flourish?) it might be worth adding some more, "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O) are a cheap magnesium source.
> 
> You are unlikely to have much magnesium in your tap supply <"for geological reasons">, your water report probably won't give a magnesium reading.
> 
> ...



Hi Darrel,

Many thanks for your reply. Taking each point, in turn:

1  See photos in next post. Sorry about poor quality.
2  I try to keep PO4 between 0.1ppm and 0.5ppm using Flourish P. But it can drop to 0ppm if I'm not super-vigilant. There is a simple formula on the Flourish P bottle that I use to calculate the required dosage. But, invariably, I check the resultant PO4 using the JBL PO4 test kit. The reason for the 0.1ppm to 0.5ppm range is because I try to maintain a Nitrate to Phosphate ratio of 10:1 or should that be a Nitrogen to Phosphorus ratio of 10:1?
3  Having only just drawn the conclusion about the possible Ca deficiency, I could add some tap water or perhaps add calcium chloride?
4  I use Tropic Marin Re-Mineral Tropic to add electrolytes back to the RO water. It adds Na, Ca, Mg, K, HCO3, Cl, SO4. So, in answer to your question, I add Ca and Mg to raise dGH. I'm thinking of moving away from Tropic Marin and perhaps using the formulation from James' Planted Tank. I could use more Tropic Marin but that would mean increasing alkalinity accordingly and I felt that dKH of 4.5 was sufficient buffering but what do you think? I have Epsom Salts so no problem with Mg.
5  Are you not a fan of ferrous gluconate? Which form of chelated iron do you prefer?

Thanks again.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (6 Jun 2018)

Hi Darrel,


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## dw1305 (6 Jun 2018)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> I tried to individually upload a couple of pictures but got an error message each time. Any suggestions?


It may be a size issue if the files are really enormous? 





jaypeecee said:


> The reason for the 0.1ppm to 0.5ppm range is because I try to maintain a NO3O4 ratio of 10:1 or should that be a N ratio of 10:1?


I've had <"smiley face emoticon issues"> as well. I wouldn't worry about the <"Redfield ratio">, I think it has been pretty thoroughly debunked. 





jaypeecee said:


> Having only just drawn the conclusion about the possible Ca deficiency, I could add some tap water or perhaps add calcium chloride?


Tap water is the easiest option as you have hard tap water.





jaypeecee said:


> I use Tropic Marin Re-Mineral to add electrolytes back to the RO water. It adds Na, Ca, Mg, K, HCO3, Cl, SO4. So, in answer to your question, I add Ca and Mg to raise dGH.


I don't think you need to add any more calcium. I'd use <"JamesC's DIY re-mineralising mix">, it is a much cheaper, <"and better">, option. 

All the commercial re-mineralising mixes wobble on about "electrolyte balance" and "osmotic..." as a reason for having NaCl as an ingredient, but it is really in there as a cheap filler. 





jaypeecee said:


> Are you not a fan of ferrous gluconate? Which form of chelated iron do you prefer?


It really depends on how soft your water is. I use EDTA, but in harder water another chelator is better, have a look at @a1matt's comments in the <"dosing a low tech....">  linked earlier in the thread.

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (6 Jun 2018)

Hi all, 
I've  just seen the photo's, I'm not sure about the leaves, but because it is the new leaves it maybe iron (FE) deficiency, with the red pigments being much more pronounced, because the leaves lack chlorophyll. 

If you think about deciduous tree leaves when they turn red in the autumn, this is because the tree has withdrawn the chlorophyll and you can see the red anthocyanin  pigments that were previously masked.

The plants will also be suffering from root restriction, how long have they been planted for? 

Ideally you want to take the net pot and rock-wool off and re-plant, but you may find that is now difficult, although it might be possible to cut the pot away with sharp scissors?

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (6 Jun 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I've  just seen the photo's, I'm not sure about the leaves, but because it is the new leaves it maybe iron (FE) deficiency, with the red pigments being much more pronounced, because the leaves lack chlorophyll.
> 
> If you think about deciduous tree leaves when they turn red in the autumn, this is because the tree has withdrawn the chlorophyll and you can see the red anthocyanin  pigments that were previously masked.
> ...


Hi Darrel,

OK, so maybe there is both an Fe and Ca deficiency with the _Red Devil_? Apparently, lack of Ca can cause distorted, twisted leaves, which is very evident in the photo. As regards the pronounced red pigments, I thought that might be the result of the (high?) lighting. With reference to root restriction, I had always (obviously wrongly) thought the plants should be left in the basket pots. Isn't that why they have holes in them in order that the roots can grow through them? My bwain hurts (with apologies to Monty Python). I think I'll be able to get the pots off with scissors.

Is there an _Idiot's Guide to Aquatic Gardening_? If so, I want a copy!

JPC


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## dw1305 (6 Jun 2018)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> OK, so maybe there is both an Fe and Ca deficiency with the _Red Devil_? Apparently, lack of Ca can cause distorted, twisted leaves, which is very evident in the photo


I’m pretty sure it isn’t a calcium issue, plants don’t need much calcium.

There are other deficiencies that can cause twisting in new leaves, boron (Bo) for instance, but diagnosing micro-nutrient deficiencies is mugs game.

The red colouring could be due to high light, but I think you would get a more bronzed look, rather than the light red colour.

The net pots are used when the plants are produced, they are grown emersed, and the net pots give you some air pruning of the roots.

 Cheers Darrel


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