# Centrepiece fish



## Halley (28 Sep 2016)

Hi - I am looking for a centrepiece fish for my juwel vision 180 which is heavily planted. I have naturally hard water but there is a lot of azealia wood in the tank which I think makes the ph go very low.
I currently have cardinal tetras, rummynose, Pygmy cories, guppies.  I was thinking of getting a German Blue Ram or an Angelfish. I'm wary of Angelfish as they might eat the Pygmy cories. Any suggestions?


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## Sarpijk (28 Sep 2016)

Peacock gobies.


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## alto (29 Sep 2016)

You don't mention all your fish - I looked at the video posted on your journal 

You could do a standard fin angel (you've some fish that would nip trailing angel fins so avoid any veiltail & certainly any "long fin" (hopefully no one is breeding "long fin" anymore)) - they should spend more time in the open water (unless intimidated by the rainbows ... not a combination I'd recommend) than rams generally do.
If you begin with 6-8 juvenile & raise them up in a tank with smaller tankmates, adults are less likely to view those fish as snacks - from the group, select fish to keep that are more laid back (if possible go to a breeder & let them know what you're looking for, some lines can be much more aggressive/mild than others); some angels cohabit with shrimp, some are avid shrimp hunters (note this can apply to rams as well)
I've had angels that ignored tankmates they'd grown up with but hunted & (quickly) annihilated new additions to the school (same species, similar size) 


I'd likely try M ramirezi - pick up 6-8 juveniles, you may end up with a stable group (most often my experience) or need to separate out a pair (except these fish don't "pair bond" longterm so it's often a hit & miss) - try to find locally bred or buy from a shop that is careful with fish selection
In general the wild type "blue" ram or "Holland red" seem to be the "sturdiest" farm bred fish, golds can vary, avoid any balloon or long fin variants, electric blue/neon blue can be nice fish but they are often  less resilient & "shyer" (I'd not mix them with rainbows or "tough" rummy's (different species are sold as rummy's & they are not all equal)
Rams will be in & out of the thickets more so than open water, though they'll also patrol the tank - depends on the individual character & bloodline (I've had electric blues that rarely venture out when lights are on)

These fish are among the species with iridovirus (terminal once "activated") so again I'd only buy from a specialist fish shop.  

If you like to add new fish regularly, be sure to use a quarantine tank (4-6weeks!) or avoid angels & rams.


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## KipperSarnie (29 Sep 2016)

Keyhole Cichlids!
I have six with 8 Discus & they outshine the Discus all the time.


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

alto said:


> You don't mention all your fish - I looked at the video posted on your journal
> 
> You could do a standard fin angel (you've some fish that would nip trailing angel fins so avoid any veiltail & certainly any "long fin" (hopefully no one is breeding "long fin" anymore)) - they should spend more time in the open water (unless intimidated by the rainbows ... not a combination I'd recommend) than rams generally do.
> If you begin with 6-8 juvenile & raise them up in a tank with smaller tankmates, adults are less likely to view those fish as snacks - from the group, select fish to keep that are more laid back (if possible go to a breeder & let them know what you're looking for, some lines can be much more aggressive/mild than others); some angels cohabit with shrimp, some are avid shrimp hunters (note this can apply to rams as well)
> ...



Thanks for the advice - those Ramirez look very nice. I'd love to put some Angels in but they can be aggressive I heard.  There are some praecoxs and platies in my videos but I am taking them out of the tank. So if I get 6-8 Ramirez juveniles they might grew up compatible in the tank?  I'm not sure with Rams whether you need to get a male and female or whether you can get a group?


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

Also is a German Blue Ram also a Ramirez?


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

Also is a German Blue Ram also a Ramirez?


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## alto (29 Sep 2016)

"German Blue" just referred to the particular bloodline (same for "Holland Red") & at one time, indicated those fish were coming from breeders in Germany, Holland etc

M ramirezi is the species, occasionally you can find wild stock (not rare but just don't seem to be imported that often), these can be as colorful as any of the farmed lines.
Note that some of the farmed fish get overly large (often these are poorly colored, poorly conformed fish as well),  , lately some hybrids seem to be shipping as well  

A group is often the best way to start, wild type fish can be sexed by the presence/absence of "blue spangles" in the dark blotch (but these can vary from easily seen to quite subtle)
 - if you scroll through the Seriously Fish photos, there are several example of male/female & various aquarium "strains" (some of which are very odd looking)
Choose young active fish that seem closer to wild type in body shape & size.
Like most cichlids they will engage in territorial displays etc, though physical damage is generally minimal (if any), a single fish may be harassed to the point of considerable stress (& then illness/death) ... I find maintaining a group is the best way to keep these fish (sometimes you'll end up with a strongly bonded pair that remains stable for years but this is more the exception)
Just note that all fish are active & eating etc   

Re angel aggression, I've had pairs that happily breed in a community tank, others that apparently got up one morning & decided it was no one but themselves now (tankmates  quickly & efficiently dispatched - angels will literally "ram" opponents, a single impact appears sufficient to kill) ... I didn't keep/raise babies from the latter pair type as most people hope to keep angels as community fish


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

Why would rummynose tetras bother Rams?


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## alto (29 Sep 2016)

I don't know? did someone mention this?


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## alto (29 Sep 2016)

Though depending on "rummynose" species, some can be quite the little/not so little monsters  & you need to choose tank mates with care
They can be quite actively "nippy" with any long (trailing) fin fish - imagine a Betta with only the tiniest fin nubs after a "nite with the rummy's" (poor Betta died, likely as much from stress as physical trauma)

There are several tetra species which can be "nippy", though there are always some tanks in which they appear angelically well behaved 
Often its just having some understanding of species behaviour & setting up the glass box appropriately


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

Cheers - would 6 Denison barbs be too much in a 180 litre?


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## alto (29 Sep 2016)

> *Aquarium Size*
> Base dimensions of at *least **120 ∗ 45 cm* or equivalent are required.



I'd not keep a group of less than 10 individuals in the above minimum size tank

BUT most shops will sell you however many for a 90cm tank ...


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

Yes - I think the flow is right for them in my tank but it is too small for them. Are there any dwarf angelfish species?


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## alto (29 Sep 2016)

Only stunted angels - but for awhile there were some listed from Asia as "dwarf angels"

re the Denisoni, Lauris picked up some juveniles that he grew out in one of his tanks, then returned to the shop (arranged upon purchase I believe) - you might do the same with angels etc if you've that sort of lfs


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## Halley (29 Sep 2016)

Yes I'm thinking honey gouramis now 


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## alto (30 Sep 2016)

apologies for all that parade rain  

Of course, I got some misty rain for Honey gouramis, too 
iridovirus
BUT if you can source wild type (my fav- the males show stunning colors if you add some girls) they are least likely affected 

btw I don't think there's any downside to growing out nice juvenile fish in your tank & then trading back to the shops - as long as you've a lfs that is keen to do this -  it allows one to experience a wider range of fish species than one can keep as adults ... & shops often have clients that prefer larger fish but these become very expensive to ship - & often don't travel that well unless packed at very low density which then means they become very expensive at a per fish cost


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## Halley (30 Sep 2016)

Yes you are quite the naysayer  that is a good idea but I am not sure if my lfs will go for it.


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## Alex J (30 Sep 2016)

Halley said:


> Yes you are quite the naysayer  that is a good idea but I am not sure if my lfs will go for it.
> 
> Good choice on the honey gouramis,  i think that the only choice has to be the wild type, in my opinion nothing can beat the beauty of a fully coloured up wild type male.whilst i like the wild type Rams i think they are one of those fish that have been messed about with way too much , as has been mentioned there are many varieties available some bordering on an abomination of nature unless you can get some fish from a private breeder or fish from Europe that haven't been line bred to death then i personally wouldn't bother. A lot has been mentioned about iridoviruses in fish, personally i wouldn't get too hung on this, whilst it's true that they have been identified in several species, specifically in the fish you have been discussing, Angels, Rams ,and some gourami species not everything is understood about these viruses, it's still unclear if the viruses reported in several species is one or several different agents, some have been associated with serious diseases others have been found in apparently  healthy animals , also from the point of view of the amateur fish keeper proper identification of an iridovirus is difficult as they can show very similar clinical signs observed with many other diseases . As ever, you can only do so much so, only buy fish from a trusted seller from a  tank that has no apparent diseases present, look at the behaviour of the fish and body condition , and quarantine new fish for a period of time , keep your water parameters correct and maintenance up to date.


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## alto (1 Oct 2016)

Alex J said:


> A lot has been mentioned about iridoviruses in fish, personally i wouldn't get too hung on this


are you saying this based upon personal experience or recent scientific papers???


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## Alex J (1 Oct 2016)

I'am saying it is based on me taking the time to read a number of scientific papers prepared by universities, specifically a paper from university of florida and other professional  individuals with  practical experience of studying iridoviruses in fish.To my knowledge  I haven't had any personal experience of dealing with a fish with an iridovirus , having said that   i don't have a fish disease diagnostic  laboratory so would not be able to say with certainty if any sick fish i may of had in the past had been infected with an iridovirus . There is plenty of quality information available on the net, i simply typed in "Iridovirus in fish"


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## Halley (1 Oct 2016)

Think I'll get a turtle 


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## alto (1 Oct 2016)

Halley said:


> Think I'll get a turtle


no no  no  
salmonella  

They're no longer legal in my area due to salmonella transfer to kid incidents (most people - including the retail shops & wholesalers - have no notion how to keep turtles properly, so I was rather pleased at the ban ... existing pets were "grandfathered" in) 

Just get fish that you like!
Choose stock that are active & look great & buy from a reputable shop.
All my cautions are just that, cautions ... if you like to add fish regularly, its well worth setting up a quarantine tank


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## Halley (8 Oct 2016)

I I got 2 rams today - they are eating flake food and seem very active.  Did I make a good choice?  Any advice?


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## Halley (8 Oct 2016)

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