# Does having Cyanobacteria but not having any Algae tell you anything?



## Cat (13 Apr 2016)

Hello,

I have my first aquascape going for a couple of months now and I am having issues with cyano but as I said I don't have any algae problems. Does the presence of one and not the other tell you anything about the setup, if you know what I mean?

I would love to add fish, particularly Dwarf Puffers, but I don't want to do anything until everything is stable as they are very sensitive fish. It is a big tank, 405 litres and has homemade L.E.D lights and fire extinguisher CO2 and Ei Ferts and virtually all the plants are in the 'easy' category. Oh and a variety of substrate half or more being Ada. I have a carpet of eleocharis and it mainly likes to sit on that. We went ballistic with the filtration pump/ spray bar system as I was worried about the co2 not getting everywhere it was needed and judging by the mist I can see moving about it looks ok but I haven't got any experience with planted tanks. I don't have a clue what Cyan is an indication of? I've read too much phosphate, or not enough nitrate or not good enough biological filter ( I have a fluidised bed ). I have also read that home testing kits are almost pointless anyway.

Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Tim Harrison (13 Apr 2016)

Can you post pics? Meantime take a look at this maybe it will help http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm


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## alto (14 Apr 2016)

Troi said:


> look at this maybe it will help http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm



Whatever happened to James 

 ...  who is James


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## Paulo Soares (14 Apr 2016)

Ciano is due to Silicates. Simple.

Check your tap water. Do some testing of Sio3.


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## Cat (14 Apr 2016)

Righto. Thank you for your responses. I'll try and get some pictures sorted today/tonight.

Also I didn't realise you could test for Silicates?
I'm going the to my LFS this afternoon anyway so I'll see what they have.

I'll have a read of that article too.

Thank you!!


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## EdwinK (14 Apr 2016)

Ciano is not so simple. I would say it is a bacterial outbreak due to 'new tank syndrome' and ADA substrate. Just try to siphon all you can get, do a minimum of 50 percent water change and add beneficial bacteria. Then wait. If that wont help you can start testing your water.


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## Cat (14 Apr 2016)

The bizarre thing is I am finding that the day after my weekly 50% water change the Ciano is much much worse. It was actually why I thought I'd write the post because It just baffles me.

 I am assuming if my lack of algal growth is down to the plant growth being vigorous enough to use up the nutrients in the water column ( not that it seems that vigorous to me ). I suspect my filter isn't being a good enough biofilter, its just I'm surprised that after two months it hasn't cycled enough yet. I used to keep Discus and generally it took about three weeks to cycle a filter with household ammonia?

I read the article that Troi suggested I presume a total blackout would harm the plants?


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## EdwinK (14 Apr 2016)

Total blackout is a worst case scenario. Next thing what I would do is add antibiotics (erythromycin) if syphoning out doesn't work. Usually after this treatment ciano will never appear again.


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## Paulo Soares (14 Apr 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Ciano is not so simple. I would say it is a bacterial outbreak due to 'new tank syndrome' and ADA substrate. Just try to siphon all you can get, do a minimum of 50 percent water change and add beneficial bacteria. Then wait. If that wont help you can start testing your water.



He said the tank has a couple of months. Assuming our friend follow water changes recomendations concerning ADA substrate this shouldn´t be happening from the substrate.  And IMHO cyano doesn´t came from ADA substrate. That´s a mith.. 
In my previous two assemblings (one of them with ADA substrate and the other with full Tropica set substrates) i didn´t have Cyanos. 
In the assembling with Tropica, i started with osmosis water and zero cyanos. 4 months after i started to mix tap water with osmosis (50% each) and in one week i got Cyanos. So i did backwards to 100% osmosis and the cyano disappear. 
In the Ada assembling with ADA soil never had cyano. 

This is my experience. So very sorry but tanks "Syndrome" or else or blaming the tank for being new is a mith.

Cyano in my opinion is due to some chemical in tap water. And that is Silicates. Maybe in combination with something else to. I don´t really know. Silicates plus something making a reaction that sort out in cyano.

And if it comes from the tap water the more water changes you make the more difficult to get rid of them. This was something i also experiment. 
If you do not make WC for some weeks or reduce it largely (20% a week) you´ll notice cyanos disapearing. 

And why? Cause you reduce silicate. Cyano feeds from silicate. By the time there isn´t any silicate or in minimal amount cyano will go away.

This was all due to my own testing and experience as i said before. 

Many thanks.


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## Paulo Soares (14 Apr 2016)

Cat said:


> The bizarre thing is I am finding that the day after my weekly 50% water change the Ciano is much much worse



There you go! Precisely as i mentioned and experienced.


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## Paulo Soares (14 Apr 2016)

Doing syphoning with ADA soil is not so recomendable..IMHO. 

If you are a little careless you´ll be realeasing amounts of amonia to the water column. And then you´ll see the results of that. If your filter is well positioned and has enough power that isn´t necessary cause it will be sucking all organics or waste material. 

Ada is very delicate


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## AndyMcD (14 Apr 2016)

In my limited experience, I get cyano worst where:
- flow is lowest
- sunlight may be brightest (not shining on the tank, but at the front)
- waste may be building up
- my filter may be due a clean

Putting card at substrate level to block excess light can help to reduce it (I think this is a George Farmer top tip which works for me). It produces energy by photosynthesis, so if you block light, you can reduce its source of energy.

If it gets really bad, a 3 day blackout killed it off for me, but this isn't a permanent solution.

Increased air at night may help bacteria burn off excess organics. I had a Venturi running at night pointing in the worst affected area and the increased flow and oxygen may have helped.

Water changes (gravel vac) may help get rid of the waste the bacteria is feeding on.


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## Cat (14 Apr 2016)

Paulo Soares said:


> He said the tank has a couple of months. Assuming our friend follow water changes recomendations concerning ADA substrate this shouldn´t be happening from the substrate.  And IMHO cyano doesn´t came from ADA substrate. That´s a mith..
> In my previous two assemblings (one of them with ADA substrate and the other with full Tropica set substrates) i didn´t have Cyanos.
> In the assembling with Tropica, i started with osmosis water and zero cyanos. 4 months after i started to mix tap water with osmosis (50% each) and in one week i got Cyanos. So i did backwards to 100% osmosis and the cyano disappear.
> In the Ada assembling with ADA soil never had cyano.
> ...



My water isn't RO but it is filtered through separate chloramine, sediment and activated carbon (coconut) canisters. I live in Cambridge which has pretty awful water. It is pretty hard and as far as I am aware has the highest legal limits of nitrates allowed (from farming apparently). I had an ancient test kit so I gave it ago, no idea if any of it is viable but according to it I have no ammonia, no nitrites and 10mg/l nitrates, I also have a Hanna pen which reads - ph - 7.93 (drop checker is green for co2 though), ppm - 376 and uS- 751? If that helps ? Are fluidised bed is made with Silica sand though hmmm


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## Cat (14 Apr 2016)

AndyMcD said:


> In my limited experience, I get cyano worst where:
> - flow is lowest
> - sunlight may be brightest (not shining on the tank, but at the front)
> - waste may be building up
> ...



Yeah I'm hoping its not flow but it does strike me that it is worse on the grass than anywhere else. The tank is over 2 metres long but when we built the setup we made the calculations for the flow rate with our expected back pressure from the pipe work, we aimed for 10 times the volume of the tank an hour. You can see the mist flowing in a circular pattern and the grass waving with it. We feed the spray bar from both ends to avoid a large pressure drop. There is a patch where the sun can hit the tank at the later half of the day but the Cyano doesn't seem to favour it. Also our fluidised bed is by its own nature self cleaning. I have to syphon the decaying stuff out as it would have to be pretty small to get through our intakes and so it never reaches the fluidised bed anyway. SO complicated!


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## Chris Jackson (14 Apr 2016)

Ah well I had big issues with cyano on a filtered rain water supplied tank and more water changes only made it worse and worse but more KNO3 cleared it up. But with another tank this  approach didnt help at all and reducing ferts was beneficial so for my experience there was no clear single answer...but certainly always worst in low flow debris collecting areas.


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## EdwinK (14 Apr 2016)

Paulo Soares said:


> cyano doesn´t came from ADA substrate. That´s a mith..


Of course it does not come from substrate. Substrate realises some elements that help ciano to develop. 


Paulo Soares said:


> This is my experience. So very sorry but tanks "Syndrome" or else or blaming the tank for being new is a mith.


So this is your experience. If a thing never happened to you, you call it a myth? I never had cancer but I know it is not a myth. Aquarium eco system is so difficult that only very naive person could call it 'simple'. I'm not blaming anything but saying that such possibility exists.


Paulo Soares said:


> Doing syphoning with ADA soil is not so recomendable


You need to syphon out the bacteria not the substrate itself.


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## rebel (15 Apr 2016)

Any pics?

If you can't be bothered with doing various experiments, I reckon erythromycin will cure it. Of course use it with care and usually precautions.


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

I could upload other photos but they all look like this one anyway! I might try taking some pictures at night because there are reflections everywhere. The tank has a black back and one side that is near a window.

If I did use erythromycin where would I get it? I managed to get some antibiotics for my Discus fish years ago but I can't remember where from just somewhere on the internet.

I ok with doing experiments if you have any suggestions, its just that there are so many variables I'm not sure how much it could tell you?


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## rebel (16 Apr 2016)

I've heard of someone who spot treats with kno3. Worth a try I guess.


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

rebel said:


> I've heard of someone who spot treats with kno3. Worth a try I guess.


Ooooo I might try that today, at least I have kno3 at home.....


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## EdwinK (16 Apr 2016)

Cat said:


> If I did use erythromycin where would I get it?



Go to your local drug store and buy it. If you need a prescription ask your family doctor.


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

Unfortunately a GP in England would never give me a prescription for my fish tank! I am allergic to penicillin so erythromycin is what I would get if I was ill but they still wouldn't give it to me even if I was good at faking it because I'm in my first trimester of pregnancy!


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## EdwinK (16 Apr 2016)

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...XErythromycin.TRS0&_nkw=Erythromycin&_sacat=0

Maracyn is good also.


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## Crusader58 (16 Apr 2016)

As far as I know, it is illegal to purchase antibiotics (for fish/animals) in the UK without a prescription from a qualified Vet. Im not sure if buying from ebay would be legal here (Uk).


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

Any ideas as to why it would be so much worse after a water change?


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## dw1305 (16 Apr 2016)

Hi all,





Crusader58 said:


> As far as I know, it is illegal to purchase antibiotics (for fish/animals) in the UK without a prescription from a qualified Vet. Im not sure if buying from ebay would be legal here (Uk).


It isn't legal in the UK. There are good reasons why antibiotics are only available via prescription <"Non-prescription antimicrobial use worldwide: a systematic review">.


AndyMcD said:


> waste may be building up - my filter may be due a clean





Chris Jackson said:


> but certainly always worst in low flow debris collecting areas.


It is strange because you have a fluidised bed filter, can you get more oxygen into the tank?

cheers Darrel.


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2016)

Cyano is a predecessor of algae in tanks.  Once it runs it's cycle, algae of some sort normally take over. In my experience it's caused by a combination of low oxygen, high organics, especially leaching from too rich substrate, and light of course.  The last time I had it, it was in a tank I systematically overfed.
 Although one may suffer for weeks with it, cyano eventually disappears and gets replaced by the next pest that loves similar conditions. It has the potential to destroy plants if it grows rampant....
Some do say it's due to low nitrogen as cyano can produce it's own. Worth spot dosing with powdered kno3 on top of where the cyano is. I've never really tried that method because mine was certainly not caused by low nitrate. I fed my fry high protein foods several times a day...just before a huge cyano outbreak ....If anything, excessive nitrate and phosphate look like the more logical reason to me....


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

dw1305 said:


> It is strange because you have a fluidised bed filter, can you get more oxygen into the tank?



I could lower water level and then spraybar would make the surface very agitated? At night at least otherwise I would haemorrhage co2 presumably?


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Cyano is a predecessor of algae in tanks.  Once it runs it's cycle, algae of some sort normally take over. In my experience it's caused by a combination of low oxygen, high organics, especially leaching from too rich substrate, and light of course.  The last time I had it, it was in a tank I systematically overfed.
> Although one may suffer for weeks with it, cyano eventually disappears and gets replaced by the next pest that loves similar conditions. It has the potential to destroy plants if it grows rampant....
> Some do say it's due to low nitrogen as cyano can produce it's own. Worth spot dosing with powdered kno3 on top of where the cyano is. I've never really tried that method because mine was certainly not caused by low nitrate. I fed my fry high protein foods several times a day...just before a huge cyano outbreak ....If anything, excessive nitrate and phosphate look like the more logical reason to me....



This is all very interesting because I wondered if having a rich substrate and Ei certs might be over doing it. I was haphazard at dosing the ferts bc I kept forgetting and then recently I got better at it as I made more effort! Today I did notice some other algae which I haven't looked up yet. My Alternanthera Rosafolia looks unhappy but my Echinodorus looks good although the new leaves are longer than originals. There are all these different signs and I just can't read them!


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2016)

Having a rich substrate and dosing EI is certainly overdoing it. The ferts are important along the way afterwards, so the substrate doesn't get depleted completely but at the start you certainly don't need dosing anything.
But it's the organics in the soil that are attracting cyano and not directly the levels of nitrate or phosphate  Rich substrate goes through heavy organics breakdown which depletes oxygen quite fast. Cyano loves these conditions, it is a heavy oxygen producer that can exist in anaerobic conditions unlike plants and algae which don't do as well as in such environment. They need oxygen as much as they need co2.
I thought I'd quote wiki because we sometimes forget the basics...

_By producing __gaseous_ _oxygen__ as a byproduct of photosynthesis, cyanobacteria are thought to have converted the early __reducing atmosphere__ into an __oxidizing__ one, causing the "rusting of the Earth"__[7]__ and causing the __Great Oxygenation Event__, dramatically changing the composition of life forms on Earth by stimulating __biodiversity__ and leading to the near-extinction of __anaerobic organisms__ (that is, oxygen-intolerant)._


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> Having a rich substrate and dosing EI is certainly overdoing it. The ferts are important along the way afterwards, so the substrate doesn't get depleted completely but at the start you certainly don't need dosing anything.
> But it's the organics in the soil that are attracting cyano and not directly the levels of nitrate or phosphate  Rich substrate goes through heavy organics breakdown which depletes oxygen quite fast. Cyano loves these conditions, it is a heavy oxygen producer that can exist in anaerobic conditions unlike plants and algae which don't do as well as in such environment. They need oxygen as much as they need co2.
> I thought I'd quote wiki because we sometimes forget the basics...
> 
> _By producing __gaseous_ _oxygen__ as a byproduct of photosynthesis, cyanobacteria are thought to have converted the early __reducing atmosphere__ into an __oxidizing__ one, causing the "rusting of the Earth"__[7]__ and causing the __Great Oxygenation Event__, dramatically changing the composition of life forms on Earth by stimulating __biodiversity__ and leading to the near-extinction of __anaerobic organisms__ (that is, oxygen-intolerant)._



At least I have more respect for cyanobacteria now. Do you think agitating the surface more would be good or should I pump some bubbles in there, I'm bound to have another pump somewhere. I was thinking I could top up the tank in the morning so as not to loose so much CO2, I could do this everyday until things start to calm down on the substrate front. There is a two metre spray bar in there so that should be a lot of agitation!


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2016)

Since you are adding CO2, make sure that you have heavy surface movement at least at night when the co2 is off. The cyano phase should run it's course eventually albeit slowly sometimes. The point is to make sure nothing else comes of it. Also, the grass could be catching lots of detritus and uneaten fish food which could be contributing to the issue a lot. Do you have shrimp in that tank? Cherry shrimp will find refuge from predators in the grass and keep it quite clean from left overs.


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

I have no fish in there at the moment but eventually I was hoping to have quite a few dwarf puffers and so I would assume they would represent a very tasty meal to them?


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## sciencefiction (16 Apr 2016)

Oh yes, they probably would eat the shrimp, if they find them


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## Cat (16 Apr 2016)

I might have rethink puffers, they are messy eaters....


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