# Soil tank dosing



## Paul195 (28 Apr 2013)

Hi

Since I planted up my tank, some of the plants seem to be doing well, but some have pale leaves, have holes in, or are going brown. I think I might have a deficiency of something but I don't know how to find out what it is.

Initially I was led to believe that I wouldn't need to dose anything for the first 6-12 months as the nutrients would be provided by the soil, but some of the plants look like they need something!

After doing some research, I started to think that I should just follow EI but with adjusted quantities or PPS-Pro to avoid any deficiencies. Is this the best approach even for a low maintenance soil tank? My plan is to do 40% WC every 2-3 weeks.

Thanks

Paul


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## Henry (28 Apr 2013)

From what I've read on this forum, this is most likely a CO2 issue. You would do well to either reduce your lighting of provide your plants with a carbon source, be it liquid carbon or injected CO2.


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## Paul195 (28 Apr 2013)

I have low lighting (around 1.35WPG) which is on for 8 hours a day. I am trying to avoid adding C02 as it is a low tech, non-C02 based tank, and I'm not sure C02 is the problem here (at least I hope not!)


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## Alastair (28 Apr 2013)

Hi paul, if it is indeed nutrient deficiency then dose ei but at 1/10th the dosage of normal ei dosing. Your lighting isnt too much as that's what I ran on my puddle tank. 
Adding any source if carbon will instantly turn your tank high tech. 
Even in soil tanks nutrient deficiency can occur.  I dosed every couole of weeks but very minimal.  Which soil are you using


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## Paul195 (28 Apr 2013)

Hi I'm using John Innes 3 soil.

I am a little confused about whether I need to add N,P,K + trace. I have a current nitrate reading of 10ppm so do I need N? I don't have a phosphate test kit yet so I don't know my levels - should I buy a kit and test before adding P? I also don't know my levels of K (no test kit), and same goes for all the micro's. should I be aware of what my current levels of all these things are before adding more, or do I just dose regardless?

Currently my GH is 14dGH and KH is 11dKH, if I were to follow the normal EI (low tech) procedure, would this alter these values? I don't want raise them as I am looking to keep soft(er) water fish.

Thanks

P


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## BigTom (28 Apr 2013)

I'm struggling a bit with the idea of nutrient deficiencies soon after setup with JI3 in a low tech tank, it's absolutely loaded with ferts (John Innes Composts explained). Which plants are struggling and how long has the tank been running?

Some will not do well due to a lack of co2, that's where I'd look first. Also, are you sure they aren't still switching from emersed to submerged growth?

JI3 also wasn't a terribly good choice if you're after a soft water tank, it's always going to push pH and hardness up quite a lot.


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## Alastair (28 Apr 2013)

With john innes youll struggle to keep any soft water fish im afraid as it constantly keeps the gh and kh very high due to the limestone content in it. 
Fish requiring soft water wouldnt last long even with how your water is now unfortunately.  
Following any dosing shouldnt increase your gh or kh anymore unless you were also adding in magnesium etc. 
In a low tech soil tank both the soil and waste produced by fish should be more than enough to give nutrients but you may neee to add smalk amount of trace now and then. 

Which plants is it that arent doing well it could be possible that the plants are higher demanding species

Also try to do the water changes on a smaller but more frequent scale so not as to make such a big impact on the water conditions.  
I would have thought the nitrate readings your testing in the water arent necessarily what the soil is also providing but 10ppm in a low tech should of been sufficient I would have thought .


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## Alastair (28 Apr 2013)

Tom just got in their lol


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## Paul195 (29 Apr 2013)

> JI3 also wasn't a terribly good choice if you're after a soft water tank, it's always going to push pH and hardness up quite a lot.


I am learning these things a little too late unfortunately! but I will work with what I have... I will choose fish to suit the conditions. The tank has been submerged and planted now for about 3-4 weeks.

Here is my list of plants:-

Cryptocoryne legroi - pale in colour, not much growth
Bacopa myriophylloides - went almost totally brown, removed yesterday
Java moss Cup - fine
Cryptocoryne wendtii green - doing well
Echinodorus argentinensis - doing well
Echinodorus compacta - some holes in leaves
Echinodorus harbii - some holes in leaves, not much growth
Echinodorus purpurea - seems fine
Echinodorus uruguayensis - doing well
Echinodorus xinguensis - pale / transparent leaves and some browning
Heteranthera zosterifolia - doing superbly growing fast
Hygrophila pinnatifida - seems fine exept lower leaves decaying
Juncus repens - seems fine
Ludwigia peruviana - seems fine but not much noticeable growth yet
Microsorium mini - fine except some black edges to leaves
Microsorium pteropus - as above
Pogostemon erectus - not doing too well - pale in colour (knew that this was a high light plant but decided to give it a shot)
Pogostemon stellatus - doing really well but some of the upper most leaves are lighter green in colour.



> Also, are you sure they aren't still switching from emersed to submerged growth?


 
How can I tell if this is the case or if it's C02 / defficiency related?

P


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## BigTom (29 Apr 2013)

Paul195 said:


> I am learning these things a little too late unfortunately! but I will work with what I have...


 
Yeah I did exactly the same thing, started out trying to keep _Parosphromenus_ and other soft water fish, eventually realised how hard the John Innes was makign the water and switched to more suitable fish species.



Paul195 said:


> How can I tell if this is the case or if it's C02 / defficiency related?


 
Well lots of plants have different shaped leaves depending on whether they're growing above or below water. _Echinodorus_ especially are usually pretty obviously different - try google image searching 'plant name emersed' to get an idea for which ones might have been grown emersed (lots of species are).

Looking at your plant list, I don't have any experience with many of the stems (_Pogo, Bacopa_), so wouldn't like to comment on them, but I've never got_ H. pinnatifada_ to survive in hard water - did fine in very soft water for me though. Crypts are often very sulky when first planted or moved, and I'd not be at all surprised if most of your _Echinodorus_ were grown emersed. Ferns also can experience die back when faced with changing water conditions but as long as the rhizome stays alive they should grow back good and strong.

I suspect that what you're experiencing is a combination of transitioning plants and a few more difficult species which will probably be suffering without co2 addition. I expect the former will fix themselves given a little time.

Having said that, some sensible dosing is unlikely to hurt so feel free to try it (Alastair's advice sounds pretty good). I'm not convinced its the issue, however.


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## Paul195 (29 Apr 2013)

Can I just skip back to an earlier question?


> should I be aware of what my current levels of all these things are before adding more, or do I just dose regardless?


 
I would be really grateful if you could spell out for me what dosing schedule I should follow based on the fact that I don't want to increase GH/KH/PH and I don't know my current levels of P or K.
KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, MGS04 etc etc ....

So to go forwards, I will try the dosing to see if it helps and ultimately if this isn't the issue then I will either just have to remove the ones that don't do too well, or perhaps add C02 to get them back.


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## BigTom (29 Apr 2013)

Paul195 said:


> Can I just skip back to an earlier question?
> 
> 
> I would be really grateful if you could spell out for me what dosing schedule I should follow based on the fact that I don't want to increase GH/KH/PH and I don't know my current levels of P or K.
> KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, MGS04 etc etc ....


 
No idea mate, sorry. I've got a bottle of all-in-one mix from TNC which I almost never use anyway... gone through about 200ml in 2.5 years. Completely ignorant when it comes to dosing.


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## Henry (29 Apr 2013)

I refer back to my post on CO2 or reducing light. I've been successful growing plants in soil in virtual darkness, due to the low light limiting the need for CO2 and high levels of nutrients.

What are the dimensions of the tank? What lights are you using? What means of providing flow do you have?

I ask this because I ran a large soil based tank for a while. The tank was being run without a filter, just plenty of floating duckweed. The tank was heavily stocked. Some plants grew well, some not at all. As soon as I halved the lighting and added a filter, all of the plants took off and looked much healthier.


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## Paul195 (29 Apr 2013)

To be honest I have been considering using liquid C02 anyway as I worked it out being reasonable costs on my 200L using the AE neutro C02 gear. Also they do a product called neutro T which is supposed to be ferts for low tech tanks but I noticed it doesn't have any macro ferts...why is this? and should I consider it instead of dry ferts (macro's & micro's).


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## Paul195 (29 Apr 2013)

Sorry, I have so many questions, I am asking a new one before you have a chance to answer my last! apologies.


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## Paul195 (29 Apr 2013)

> What are the dimensions of the tank? What lights are you using? What means of providing flow do you have?


5ftx1ftx1ft (approx 200L), 1x 58W T8 with reflector for 8 hours, 6x turnover external canister filter with custom extended spraybar across full width. No fish yet just the plants above.

Perhaps adding both C02 and ferts is the way forward.

P


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## Henry (29 Apr 2013)

I don't think nutrient levels in a low tech tank should be an issue when using the low tech method. At most, some trace once a week will help provide the plants with anything they can't get from fish waste. Large weekly water changes will help too.


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## BigTom (29 Apr 2013)

Paul195 said:


> Sorry, I have so many questions, I am asking a new one before you have a chance to answer my last! apologies.


 
This is possibly going to sound a bit patronising (and isn't at all meant to be!), but one of the most important skills for low tech planted aquarium success is patience. The joy of soil tanks is being able to watch your plants flourish with the bare minimum of fussing and worrying. My advice would be to stop worrying too much about splurging on co2 and dosing equipment, and instead to sit back and watch what your plants do over the next few weeks. One or two species may not do well or die off, but I'm willing to bet the majority will happily settle in after a while longer and get on with growing at their own pace.


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## Paul195 (29 Apr 2013)

> The joy of soil tanks is being able to watch your plants flourish with the bare minimum of fussing and worrying. My advice would be to stop worrying too much about splurging on co2 and dosing equipment, and instead to sit back and watch what your plants do over the next few weeks


Point taken ...I just want to see all of the plants that I spent a small fortune on doing well (hence letting me know that I am not failing). I shall see what happens over the next few weeks. 
Many thanks for all your advice and time.

Paul


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## Henry (29 Apr 2013)

Very good point Tom. 
Paul, I think you would benefit greatly from reading up on the 'Walstad method'.


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