# Topping up Aqua soil....



## JohnC (26 Aug 2012)

Hi,

I've been presoaking some aquasoil as i need to top up a tank. 

its not looking nice. 

Its just not going to work. I'll mud bomb the nice plants and moss if i try.

Before i break open a bag of flora base fine and use that instead has anyone topped up with aquasoil before? is there a tip i'm missing (other then drain the tank entirely & put enough in to start with) ?

Best Regards,
John


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## Garuf (26 Aug 2012)

I have, my tip, forget it. Ada's aquasoil with being ungraded is just rammed full of dust that kills the scape. The only way of standing a chance is to essentially do a fresh start up, ie drain the tank as low as possible so the area you want to top up is free of planting and water add the aquasoil then refill with airline until about half the tank is filled, even then though, you get so so much dust even when I did it that way my tank was murky for 3 days or so and dusty/silty for what seemed like forever after.


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## Mark Evans (26 Aug 2012)

wqatch from about 2.50sec


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## Garuf (26 Aug 2012)

I did it as per the video but with wet substrate like Johns and got a cack storm. If it's just topping up with fresh then it's clearly a different story.


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## GHNelson (26 Aug 2012)

Cheers Mark
Top video  ....must a cost mega beer tokens to do that scape.
Cardinals look so much better though.
hoggie


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## JohnC (26 Aug 2012)

I don't want to risk the ammonia spike so i've pre soaked the stuff. every time I drain the water to replace it another cloud of dust and silt comes off. 

Cheers for the video Mark. Once i stopped drooling over the rocks and watched what they were doing it was useful but again I don't want to risk it.

I'll just use flora base to top it off. No biggy. (although i do have a bucket of Mayan mud sitting spare now).

Best Regards,
John


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## Antipofish (26 Aug 2012)

You WILL still get an ammonia spike with fresh florabase and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong mate.  I have i in my tank and used it from fresh.


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## JohnC (26 Aug 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> You WILL still get an ammonia spike with fresh florabase and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong mate.  I have i in my tank and used it from fresh.



i do indeed know this. I'll presoak that too.  unlike aquasoil it doesnt turn to mud first


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## Antipofish (26 Aug 2012)

The aquasoil turns to mud  ?  I didn't realise that.


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## Garuf (26 Aug 2012)

It doesn't turn to mud it's just "dirtier" when bagged with being ungraded so contains a lot more dust than florabase, it's the dust that turns muddy not the substrate.


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## Mark Evans (27 Aug 2012)

Antipofish said:
			
		

> The aquasoil turns to mud ? I didn't realise that.



No, not at all. If handled right, you'll be fine. 

My latest 120cm contains pre-used aquasoil. Constant rooting and uprooting of plants can cause the aquasoil to break down, so once planted it's best to leave it alone. 

I take the old aquasoil out of the tank, place in the original bag, cut the corners off the bag and leave to drain for week. This time of year, place it in a warm shed with the top of the bag open to allow moisture to escape

To be honest, you'd never know that the aquasoil was used or not.


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (27 Aug 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I basically did this with 10L of EBI Gold, but rather than cut holes in bag, I left out in the baking sun on a board. 

Just put it back into my CRS tank, and true to form, it looks completely brand new and is not dusting up at all. Probably even better than first time around.

Happy days


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## Ady34 (27 Aug 2012)

Well I've just removed all my old aqua soil and power sand and it's currently laid out on cut bin bags with drainage holes in the back garden. Unfortunately the British weather may well not provide the drying power needed, but I'll just pop it back in damp as a base to build substrate height and then cap off with the 9 l bag of Amazonia powder I have! 
I'll be starting again though and don't have to worry about the ammonia spike, but Im not expecting a mud bath!


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## Antipofish (27 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> It doesn't turn to mud it's just "dirtier" when bagged with being ungraded so contains a lot more dust than florabase, it's the dust that turns muddy not the substrate.



So if its been soaked to minimise the ammonia spike, then drained and dried as I suggested, and gently sieved to remove this dust, won't that work ?  Cos I guarantee that new dry colombo florabase WILL give a pretty hefty ammonia spike when its new.


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## nry (27 Aug 2012)

Why does FloraBase give an ammonia spike?


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## Nathaniel Whiteside (27 Aug 2012)

nry said:
			
		

> Why does FloraBase give an ammonia spike?



All of your 'decent' plant substrates release Ammonia for up to 8 weeks when new.


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## Ian Holdich (27 Aug 2012)

they do, but i have always stocked straight away with shrimp, cherries and CRS, and never had a problem. Keep up with water changes and plant heavily and there shouldn't be a problem.


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## Ady34 (27 Aug 2012)

ianho said:
			
		

> they do, but i have always stocked straight away with shrimp, cherries and CRS, and never had a problem. Keep up with water changes and plant heavily and there shouldn't be a problem.


Just to be clear Ian is this combined with a mature filter?


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## Ian Holdich (27 Aug 2012)

sometimes yes and sometimes no...the plants will utilise the ammonia, but the water changes are a must. I have never seen the massive spike they talk of.


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## Antipofish (27 Aug 2012)

ianho said:
			
		

> sometimes yes and sometimes no...the plants will utilise the ammonia, but the water changes are a must. I have never seen the massive spike they talk of.




I did not get a "massive" spike either, and I thing thats cos I was doing what Ian said... I was doing 50% every other day in the first two weeks, then every third day for two weeks... and so on. I tested for Ammonia and Nitrite and saw them peak and recede, confirming that I had completed my cycle in under two weeks.  I also used SERA BIO NITRIVEC which is meant to help the process and I, along with TGM, believe this to be the case.  I did get a spike but not huge levels.


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## Garuf (27 Aug 2012)

I honestly couldn't tell you about drying out and sieving, I never bothered with that I just used fresh as a cap and filled as carefully as possible. 

I concur with mark, the substrate doesn't really degrade all that much see this thread, both are comparable after long period of constant use, both are near identical to what they were like new: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21794 the dust is already present in the bag with ADA it isn't with florabase, both are nearly identical in hardness the difference is the texture and colour as well as the grading thing. 

In response to the ammonia spike, seeding the substrate, using purigen et al and using a mature filter negates the much smaller and shorter lasting ammonia spike you get with florabase. This is using hobby grade kits which at best are untrustworthy, however. It's worth noting that my comparisons are on the old version of ADA's amazonia. The last time I used florabase I seeded the substrate and used a mature filter and tested daily and my kit never registered a spike. I do my waterchanges at start up 50%daily 2 weeks, 50every other day for two weeks, twice a week for 2 weeks then weekly after that, all 50%. I've never used a seeding product, I'm very sceptical about them and anyway a bit of mulm from a filter is cheap. see this post on them: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/fishless-cycling

I'd be interested to know the root cause of the spike and if the process of drying and then restarting it causes the ammonia spike again, I thought the reason for the spike was the biologically inactive substrate was unable to nitrify the ammonia equalling a spike which would suggest drying would cause a spike but where is the ammonia coming from, presumably there's a depletion. It's something I'd never considered till now.


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## Ady34 (27 Aug 2012)

I don't think there will be another ammonia spike with reused and dried aqua soil, only when using new as a cap.
The daily 50% water changes in the early stages will help hugely with this and mature filters etc only add an extra safeguard.
Having said that ill be starting from scratch and won't be adding stock for at least 5-6 weeks, planting after 4 when the tank will hopefully be cycled.
I think from whats been said if only adding a little more new to a mature established set up then extra water changes, a mature filter and the plants themselves will take care of any extra ammonia released, just as in the Amano video that Mark posted


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## nry (27 Aug 2012)

Plants negate the cycle anyhow, may as well plant then stock...


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## Ady34 (27 Aug 2012)

nry said:
			
		

> Plants negate the cycle anyhow, may as well plant then stock...


Yeah but I'm skint now so need to save for my plants


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## JohnC (28 Aug 2012)

one of the mistakes i made with my newer rio180L set up was to under estimate the spike and it's nutritional value for the plants. I should have avoiding going straight into EI dosing, since my new CO2 set up was fluctuating a fair bit and the light levels were too high. One full set of new tank algae later, plus a black brush bloom all fed by the eutrophic dosing my lovely initial planting scheme was taking a hammering.

live and learn eh.


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## JohnC (29 Aug 2012)

So, i found myself needing to replant the rotala today so decided to bite the bullet and try and add a bit of aquasoil since it had been soaking for a month now and the florabase wasnt ready. I did some sieving first to get the worst of the dust off. Wasnt that bad. I'm about to do a water change to follow up the replanting. Hopefully it will all be ok. Still a load of dust came up.






Best Regards,
John


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## Garuf (29 Aug 2012)

Lots of water changes to prevent it settling should sort that out, it's a damn sight less of a mess than when I tried it!


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## JohnC (29 Aug 2012)

Garuf said:
			
		

> Lots of water changes to prevent it settling should sort that out, it's a damn sight less of a mess than when I tried it!




I only did a little bit around the back in this photo where the gap is. The massive over filtration of the tank should help. 

It's just dawned on me what I should do next time. 

Freeze it.

Then stick slabs of frozen aquasoil under the existing stuff.


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## Garuf (29 Aug 2012)

Good idea, US scapers do this in ice trays when making their own root tablets.


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## Antipofish (29 Aug 2012)

Freezing is a bloody good idea.  Bit like the problem with the lorry stuck in the Lincoln Tunnel in NYC.  City engineers and the fire brigade thought and pontificated for hours trying to work out how to "un jam" the tall lorry that got wedged into the entrance to the tunnel.  It took a 7 year old boy to observe "Why don't they just let the tyres down?" !!  

I would be interested on how well the freezing method works


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