# Lighting Dilemma



## James O (21 Oct 2015)

I'm in love with the kessil A160we tuna sun.  But the Radeon XR15 fresh water is preying on my mind.

Kessil:

Light £199
Gooseneck £30
Extension £20
Controller £99
Hinging £DIY

+ True point source lighting creating great natural shadow areas
+ No disco that I've seen
+ As small a light as is possible
+ gooseneck or hanging
+ pleasant colour rendition options
- dumb cable design. Mains =1cable. Controller = 1more cable. Link multi units =1 more cable 
- gooseneck at extra cost
- gooseneck extension at extra cost
- controller at extra cost
- very basic controller.  Due to the limited, but still adequate colour output options, the controller is basic, very basic and feels like a bogo nokia phone from the late 90's.  And yes it must be continually connected to the light by a seperate cable
- controller only runs 2 profiles although you can daisy chain multiple lights with....Another cable


Radeon:

Light £199
Hanging kit £30

+ amazing colour options
+ built in controller
+ only mains cable to hide away
+ not too big 
+ reef link upgrade £99 wireless (are you listening kessil) control of multiple lights
- disco effect?
- far too much blue (from colour spread graphic) which will need to be dialled back permanently
- too powerful for a non CO2 tank so used at 50% or so? But does allow for hitech upgrade

Question - can you ramp up each colour individually on the Radeon for sunrise - sunset colourations? 

Recommendations based on the above?


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## Martin in Holland (22 Oct 2015)

For me it would be Kessil, mostly because no disco effect, but I would DIY some kind of hanging kit.


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## Manuel Arias (23 Oct 2015)

I would say that plants prefer the spectrum matching the natural light spectrum, which definitively is not an even spectrum. In fact, the reason why most species uses red and blue spectrum is the energy associated to such a bands (not all the wavelengths would be able to lead to a photosynthesis process), and in aquatic plants, also related to the penetration of the light in the water.

This forum has a good article about this topic, and you can see that the preferred wavelengths for photosynthesis are blue and and red bands:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/lighting/38014-lighting-spectrum-photosythesis.html

As usual, the best combination in LEDs are using lamps of wide spectrum (white/daylight colour) mixed with blue and red lamps with projection cones overlapping (this depends on the optics of the LEDs, as well as the height and intensity of the light). The idea of this is to provide light in the full spectrum of visible, so the view of the tank is not affected and the dishes and plants get all what they need, plus a kick in the wavelengths used by the plants so they can take advantage of this plus energy.

Of course, there are so many opinions as colours...or should I say wavelengths?


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## Mr. Teapot (27 Oct 2015)

I really like the radion - my _Hygrophila Araguaia_ looked especially nice under it. Software is really fantastic. You have absolute control of each colour’s intensity and schedule.  Not anywhere near as powerful as I first suspected and at the stated wattage is obviously not anywhere near as efficient than the grobeam tile. Fan noise and the disco effect is a bit of a pain but if you're running with other noisy equipment it 'blends' in somewhat - over a planted tank it was very noticeable. Running the light at 100% and about 25cm above the tank wasn’t a big deal.

for those interested, a breakdown of the emitters on the xr15 freshwater:
Neutral White - 5x Cree XT-E (25W) 
Deep Blue - 2x Osram Oslon Square (10W) 
Blue - 2x Cree XP-E (6W) 
Green - 2x Cree XP-E (7W) 
Hyper Red - 2x 660nm Osram Oslon SSL (6W) 
Indigo - 1x 415nm SemiLED (2.5W) 
UV - 1x 405nm SemiLED (2.5W) 

Here’s a picture of my grobeam tile and the radion both at 100% to compare colour and brightness.


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## alto (27 Oct 2015)

James O said:


> kessil A160we tuna sun


I've 2 of these over a 90cm x 45cm ... the disco effect is a fact of point source lights (LED's) so is apparent to varying degrees - much depends on surface ripple
The Kessil is virtually silent, I only notice when working on the tank with my head right next to the lights ... no one sitting in the same room has noticed/commented on audible sound. 

AFAIR sunrise/sunset is possible with Kessil (you might drop an email their way, nice people)  

Suspending the lights is great if you've a way to mask the power cords 
I'm not much of a fan of the goosenecks - functional rather than pretty - but they do _disappear_ after awhile  .....   again no one else comments on their lack of style  
 

Re control - not sure why all manufacturers didn't go wireless


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## James O (28 Oct 2015)

Thanks for the replies   Some more questions

Mr. Teapot:  how bad is the fan noise?  The kessils really are silent but I'd be running the radion at 50% or so on a low tech tank......just love the fiddle factor of controlling all those colours  Oh and in your pic is it grobeam left : radion right?

Alto: I don't usually have much surface movement so I guess the reflections will be static?  Just don't want my fish to relive this


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## alto (28 Oct 2015)

Well my fish never show the rapt attention displayed by those film livestock 

In fact they don't seem to notice the ripple effects in any way I can discern, full on ceiling disco & ... nothing ...

If you look at some reef site reviews, there seem to be alternate ways to adjust LED light intensity - the reviewer liked Kessil & one other manufacturer (sorry don't recall) for their technology choice - as you think you'll be running at lower intensity (& haven't already bought the lamp), you might investigate this.


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## pepedopolous (28 Oct 2015)

For the cost of 2 Radions or Kessils plus all the necessary gear, you could get a single GHL Mitras 6000. More control, hanging kit included, not too much blue: with all channels at 100%, it's 7000k. 1 Mitras can cover 86cm x  65cm according to the manufacturer.

P


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## James O (28 Oct 2015)

Thanks P.  

Should have noted that at the mo I'm looking for a 60cm and I'll be collecting a set of smallish tanks.  Max 100cm and all 40cm deep


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## alto (29 Oct 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> GHL Mitras 6000.


shame they didn't include the PAR diagrams alluded to  ...  note that illumination area changes with intensity
75 x 50cm
80 x 53cm

I've 2 Kessils for a 90cm x 45 cm x 52 (H) cm tank (internal dimensions), shop has display tanks with a single Kessil A160 over 50cm & 60cm cubes but if you look at the PAR diagrams, light is falling off significantly outside 45cm (from point source) ... I though this might differ with the Radion re different shape/LED array but not significantly.
Both these lamps have rather clunky (chunky!) mounting systems - that ain't cheap  ... here's where I admit that I got a significant "deal" on some of the Kessil components so it wasn't a difficult decision 

(shop owner is very Kessil keen & that provided some bias   I believe Sanjay Joshi has some detailed PAR charts for both lamps)

(no GHL here .. but again the complete luminaire looks substantial ... would be nice to see the system IRL) )


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## James O (29 Oct 2015)

The mounting fixtures certainly are clunky, as well as expensive and pretty ugly 
I'm planning to hang them, either from the ceiling or from a bar depending on weight.

From the pictures the GHL has 6 seperate lighting pucks,each with seperate LED's.  The disco from that must be epic

I saw twin a360's over a planted tank yesterday.  Yummy

Why oh why is this so hard?????

Both lights have all the power I need
The kessil is most pleasing to the eye for me due to size & design
The kessils controller is rather basic
The kessil starts from 10% and has no channel mixing
Kessil has loads of cables that almost wipes out the slick design
The Radion has total control inc channel mixing
The radion is wireless once set up, just power lead

I need to see a radion in the flesh


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## pepedopolous (29 Oct 2015)

James O said:


> From the pictures the GHL has 6 seperate lighting pucks,each with seperate LED's. The disco from that must be epic


Nope. The disco effect comes from having too much space between the individual LEDs (point light sources). The Mitras and Radion etc pucks are designed to prevent this, as the tight spacing plus the reflectors or lenses cause the 'cones' of light to overlap each other and the light seems more diffuse. 

You would get a little disco effect if you turned off many of the light channels so there were only 1 or 2 LEDS switched on per puck. Another way this can happen is when a drop of water on an aquarium cover glass acts as a 'lens' for an LED above.  In any case I think the disco effect is not worth worrying about though some lights may be a bit more affected than others...

If you can't see the Radions in person, whichever light you go for will do the job. However, these lights should last 10 years or more. As neither light has wireless control built it, are you still gonna be happy many years after buying them?

You could wait and use a cheap LED or T5 fixture as I'm sure built-in wireless control via phones will be coming in the very near future. The problem is the marine market comes first.

Aqua Illumination Prime, Giesemann Vervve, Kessil AP700, Maxspect Ethereal, all have built-in wireless control but no freshwater versions as yet...

P


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## James O (29 Oct 2015)

pepedopolous said:


> Nope. The disco effect comes from having too much space between the individual LEDs (point light sources). The Mitras and Radion etc pucks are designed to prevent this, as the tight spacing plus the reflectors or lenses cause the 'cones' of light to overlap each other and the light seems more diffuse.



Any light with separate lenses will create the disco effect (unless leds mounted within mm of each other like some of the stars available from CREE's rgb and rgbw range) to some extent because the light is not a single point source, but rather multiple point sources overlapping - see images in Mr. Teapots thread using the Radion that throws multiple colour reflections on the wall. with little surface movement.  The kessil doesn't because it has multiple LEDs behind a single lens ie its a point source

I want to see the Radion as Mr. Teapot noted there is some fan noise but hopefully running at 50% or so will cut that down.  Assuming the fan is throttled depending on temp.

On the hunt to see a Radion.......


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## pepedopolous (29 Oct 2015)

I think that the 'disco effect' is coloured 'zones' appearing on the substrate. It can be bad if you have a light sand substrate like many marine tanks.




James O said:


> On the hunt to see a Radion.......


Maybe ADC in London?

P


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## James O (29 Oct 2015)

That explains it.  I call the disco effect the reflections of light from the surface.  Who knows 

I thought about ADC.  I'll see if i can find a stockist closer to home


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