# Hoping for some help, pulling my hair out.



## d_scherrer (14 Oct 2011)

I have been struggling now for a little more than a month now with a newly planted aquarium and I am hoping that you might have some insight as to the issues I am having.  I know its a bit of a long post, but its a short read, promise...!
(I tried to add as much info as I could.)

Tank Stats:

I have a 76 gallon (us) (287 liter)  bowfront aquarium.  I have a Fluval 405 canister filter (360 gal/1360 liter per hr) with a spray bar and I am also running a Hydor (Korilia) 750 circ pump.  I am running 1 tray of peat, 2 trays of bio, 1 tray of fine filter media with phosphate and ammonia reducing media pads as well as standard polishing pads.  I am using gas CO2 injection and I am using the EI method for fert dosing.  I am dosing Mono Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Nitrate, and CSM +B.

Nitrates and ammonia are in check.
I'm not sure on the phosphate level, but using the EI dosing it shouldn't be of concern (right?).
Water changes of 50% once a week.  
More during the blackout period, once a day infact.

I have REAL hard water.  The KH is currently 17 with a GH of around 15.  I have another test also on order as I am not sure of the quality of the test.

 My foreground plants are struggling along, but the stem plants in the mid and background seem to be OK.  I am also battling algae, both the green and gray/brown brush kinds.  The pH in this tank is right around 6.7 or so.  

I am wondering if I should be looking into an RO system for the water.  I can't seem to keep the algae at bay and I turned up the CO2 after some advice which resulted in many of my fish dying (bad mistake), so I've backed the CO2 back down and I am now just trying to get the CO2 adjusted to show  lime green on my drop checker and 7.0 ph.  Slow going so far but the mass extintinction seems to have stopped.
And what about dosing other nutrients in addition to what I already have going into the tank?  Is there something else I should be doing for this tank as I cannot seem to achieve the lush growth I was hoping for, plant growth anyway, I don't seem to have any issues with getting the algae to grow….

I should also add that I have already done a 3 day blackout (a couple weeks ago) which seemed to work and things seemed to be coming back, then all progress stopped, and that is when the CO2 levels were changed, and all hell broke loose, sort-of-speak.

I'll try now to summarize a timeline.

Week one - planted, started dosing (incorrectly) no additional circulation pump, just a spray bar, CO2 with 1 diffuser, and 4 lights (1 actinic, one 10k, two 6500)

Week two - figured out that my dosing was wrong so I fixed that, still not good growth, but algae starting/continuing to form, having a hard time getting the correct CO2 levels based on a faulty ph meter.

week three - added a second diffuser after a 3 day black out period, realized the ph meter was bad, recalibrated, and realized that my ph was still high 7.67 or so, increased co2, added hydor pump (thought being that there was not enough flow), changed how water was being directed in tank as apparently to much surface agitation was my issue (according to some advice I recieved.)  readjusted spray bar and circ pump.  Also cut way back on lighting now just using one actinic and one 6500 (after some advice).

Week 4 and week 5 (present) - mass extinction of fish (OMG!!!), reduced Co2 levels, which has stopped my fish from dying, but the algae continues to be an issue, but I think I am real doubly in trouble because all my ottos, koli loaches, and shrimp seem to be dead - haven't seen them in a few days after the mass deaths (sad face).  Running out of solutions.  Just before the real trouble began (around week 4) I did have to prune the plants, so I was seeing some growth through all this.

Thank you so much for any help.....


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## foxfish (14 Oct 2011)

New tanks benefit from several water changes each week but more importantly - did you say PH controller!?


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## d_scherrer (14 Oct 2011)

No ph controller, just using a bubble counter, I do have a ph meter though, which I use, well, to track the changes in ph.  I was trying to track CO2 levels via the ph using the Kh/ph chart.


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## foxfish (14 Oct 2011)

Well it sounds like you killed the fish with to much gas but the plants might need more flow to get the C02 into all the corners & the bottom to feed your ground cover.
I know you say you have an additional pump but perhaps it need repositioning.
The best effect come from a strong circular flow caused through the spray bar but your external filter return might not be giving this?


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## d_scherrer (14 Oct 2011)

Well, the thought here is that the filter over time does not produce constant strong flow.  I have also read in many places that you should shoot for 10x capacity of the tank for flow, working out to about 760 gph, which I definitely now get with the hydor.  Also, you mentioned water changes in a new tank...my question is at what point does the tank stop  being new?  All I mean by this is that I had cycled this tank with fish for a month before adding any plants.  So should I be keeping up with multiple water changes through the week for 3 months, 6 months, a year?  Probably as long as it takes, right?  
But how long is long enough, can't keep changing water and hoping for the best, something else needs to be in play.
I do plan to relocate the circ pump, right now its in a "dead corner", but I cacn reposition the spray bar and place the circ pump in the middle of the tank, this is a bowfront too, so strong flow from back to front creates a cricular flow as well as the water curves along the front of the tank.
Am I too concerned about the hardness of the water?  Should I just continue to focus on CO2 levels?  *sigh*
What is eveyone using out there to determine their CO2 levels?  I have a drop checker but have been told those aren't that accurate either.  So much info available, but which is good, which is erronious?

Thanks agian.


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## Brenmuk (27 Oct 2011)

Can you tell us what kind of algae the tank has? See http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm for a guide.
Depending on the type the problems may not be CO2 related although most are.

Can you also say what kind of lights you are using and how much/how long etc.

I personally would not bother with the phosphate removal pad, you are adding phosphates with the EI dosing so there is no point trying to remove them. Also I would get rid of the ammonia removal pad, the plants and biological media in the filter should take up the ammonia and ammonia should not be a problem if the tank is cycled. I would replace them with the basic inert sponges.

Don't bother with an RO system unless you want to keep sensitive fish that need very soft water or you have some problem with heavy metal contamination etc. Plants will grow ok in soft to hard water and medium to hard water is probably better if you inject CO2 because the Ca/Mg provides some ph buffering.


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## Iain Sutherland (27 Oct 2011)

hi, is it all the plants that are struggling or just some?
i would keep your lights at 2 bulbs, i run bulbs on my 260lt bow front and can grow most plants with 2 x 54w... HC is yet to be proven..?
Its quite a good idea to also add liquid carbon from the first day to help keep algae controlled. 

If i were you i would have a really good clean, turn off all pumps/filters, remove all algae effected leaves, scrub any effected wood rocks with a tooth brush, 75% WC, then double dose flourish excel (not easycarbo) everyday for a week.(look into this a little as it does run its own risks)  Keep your lighting around 4- 5 hours a day for at least a month.

The powerhead you have should be large enough but positioning is the key, it need to work with your filter.  In my experience one large pump may not create a circular flow as it hits the end of the tank and taller plants which stops the second part of the circular flow.  
Its also worth looking at how the co2 is dispersed.... does the diffuser create tiny bubbles all around the tank?

good luck


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## d_scherrer (27 Oct 2011)

Well,  for now the algae seems to be recinding with the addition of more AE's and a PH level that has finally stabilized.  I have removed the amonia scrubbers but I have added phosphate remover, the plants are doing a little better, but it has not been long enough for the phos-x to really work.
I have completed a pretty good cleaning (thank you for the advice) this past weekend and have moved a lot of the plants around.  It seems to have worked (for now) as everything is now showing signs of recovery.  
Lighting is about 10 hours a day or so with 2 bulbs, and about 4 hours or so during mid day with 4 bulbs, which are now all 6500 to 6700k.
CO2 is being diffused via an inline diffuser and thru the flow bar.  It works AWESOME.  SUPER tiny bubbles and I have been able to turn the rate down considerably while still maintaining the targeted 25-30 ppm co2 levels.


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## daniel19831123 (27 Oct 2011)

May i ask why are you putting in phosphate remover when you are adding phosphate into the tank via dosing? It doesn't seemed to make much sense. I would agree with the above about getting more flow into the tank or repositioning the output of the filter. 

You didn't mention about what lighting you have.Is it T5 or MH? What wattage is it? How is it suspend over the tank? If it's high wattage, then even 10 hours might be a lot if you are struggling with algae problem.


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## Iain Sutherland (27 Oct 2011)

good to hear things are improving. 
Id be very careful with your light still.  10 hours is too long even with 2 bulbs, most plants stop photosynthesizing after about 8 hours tops which is when the algae takes advantage especially while the plants are still recovering.  If you look around you'll see that most 'pristine' tanks run 6-8 max and as precaution, the first 3 months at 5 or six hours.


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## d_scherrer (28 Oct 2011)

Daniel,

    It wasn't the first choice to remove the phosphate and add it.  I need to stop using the potassium phosphate and use more potassium sulfate, unless this is not a good idea for a reason I have yet to know about.  I presume the issue with phosphates has been there since day one, but I only had a API test kit and was told those results were untrustworthy.  However, after purchasing a HAGEN test kit I learned that I did indeed have high phosphate levels.
Testing the tap water I have found that the tap water has 0, or at least an undetectable amount of phosphate.  Using the EI dosing method the most I should be reading is 1, worst case scenario.  Instead my readings are 5+.
I totally agree with you it doesn't make sense right now, but if I over shoot with the phosphate remover there should at least be a trace amount.  As soon as I get the potassium sulfate that I ordered I plan to stop dosing the mon-pot-phos.  I need additional potassium from the potassium sulfate, and I don't want to add more potassium nitrate to the mix as the nitrate levels are perfect where they are at currently.
    My lights are T5's at 54w each.  It is a coralife lunar light 48", 2 ballast, 4 bulb model that sits on top of the tank on legs.  I don't seem to be having a real big algae issue, a small amount of fuzz, brush, green spot, and beard.  All kept in check so far by my little algae army.  (4 plecos - fantails/brittleness- 6 ottos - 3 SAE's - 2 cory's - 2 koli's - a few asasign snails and a japo shrimp)
I really think my ferts are out of balance somewhere and all signs that I have at my disposal point to high phosphate.  My plants just look generally sad, my small foreground plants are struggling the worst (micro crypts).  My pogo has already completely died off.  My annubas, wenditti, and red mellon sword continues to grow like tanks.  I also struggled a bit in the beginning with the CO2 levels and bouncing ph levels.  This week after almost 2 months I have it finally dialed in.  It is now staying pretty constant at 7.24, give or take .05 or so.
Thoughts? 

:?


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## foxfish (28 Oct 2011)

I think it would help us if you could post a picture of your tank?


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## daniel19831123 (28 Oct 2011)

Hmm, the whole point of using and estimative index as it's name suggest it's an estimation. It should require a test kit to check out how much your tank phosphate or nitrate level is. Instead, you gauge the water parameter by observing the plants well being.

You have a 76 US gallon tank with 108W lighting for most of the day and short burst of 216W during midday. I would personally use 3 bulbs for 6-8 hours rather than having a burst of 4 hours and then 10 hours of lighting. 

Many of the symptoms that you described does sound like it's a CO2 and light problem rather than a fertiliser problem with foreground plants and pogostemon helferi problem. The fact that only foreground plants are affected is highly suspicious that you are not able to deliver the CO2 to the lower ground or the light penetration isn't sufficient as most of the time your tank has only just over 1WPG lighting (except for the burst in midday). 

With regards to your fert, my opinion is that if your fish shows no sign of distress, I wouldn't mess around with altering the phosphate level. It's more trouble to get it settle later once your tank is sorted. Have you used any nutrient calculator for your fertilisation? Can you tell us what kind of fertiliser you use and how are you dosing your tank? Hard water can sometimes cause problem for certain sofr water species but it's never really been a significant problem unless you are growing plants such as tonina species. Make sure you are not dosing any more calcium or magnesium if you have hard water. I also noticed that you say your nitrate is satisfactory. What does that signifies? Are you keeping the nitrate on the low side i.e around 5 according to the test kit? Your plants need nitrate in order to utilise the phosphate. So it's hard to say where the algae is coming from unless we know the detail of how you are dosing the tank. As you probably have notice, we don't trust the testing kit a lot. lol


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