# Dealing with condensation



## paul.in.kendal (6 Dec 2008)

Oo-er, my first post.

How do you control condensation on a rimless tank? I love the look that George and Co. achieve, but I'm concrned that if I go with an open topped set-up, my (single glazed) living room windows will be running with condensation, which will ensure my Significant Other aborts the enterprise instantly!

I'm completely new to aquaria, and have been lurking here for quite a few weeks, with an aspiration to start with a top-notch high-tech set-up.  UKAPS has taught me tons (thanks for a wonderful site!), but my LFS is not good at all, and there are probably obvious questions like this that I'd like reassurance on.

If I need pointing in the direction of a more mainstream fishkeeping forum, do say so...


----------



## vauxhallmark (6 Dec 2008)

Tropica have an article on this - it doesn't have a direct link, but it's easy to find if you go to tropica.com, click on aquaristic (top), and then on The open aquarium (right).

 Good luck with your new hobby!

Mark

PS it's not rims that reduce evaporation/condensation, but cover glasses or hoods  . You could use a clip like ADA sell (in Japan and America) and use a cover glass.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (6 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the advice, Mark, I'll have a look at the Tropica site.

I can see that a hood, a condensation tray or cover glasses would help, but getting ADA-style glassware neatly past them might be tricky, and I'd lose the minimalist look of an open top


----------



## zig (6 Dec 2008)

I have 3 open top tanks in one room with a large window( double glazed mind you, maybe thats the difference?) and don't have any problems with condensation. I'd say go for it, you could always put a cover on later if it became an issue.


----------



## Ed Seeley (6 Dec 2008)

You could always stick a little dehumidifier in the room if it did prove to be a problem.  I think the rule is the tank shouldn't be more than 5% of the floor area to prevent problems, but many seem to have bigger tanks than that without issues.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (7 Dec 2008)

The Tropica article suggests the surface area of the tank should be no more than 2% of the room's floor area, plus the air/water temperature difference should be no more than 5Â°C.  I'm looking at putting a 90x45x45 tank (yes, I'm being guided by your ace article Mr. S!) in a 12mÂ² room, with a daytime winter temperature of significantly less than 26Â°C. So I'd be breaking both the rules!

But as you've pointed out, there are obviously ways around it and the total lack of any previous discussion of this issue on this (very comprehensive) forum, suggests I'm worrying about nothing.

So I'd better continue trying to persuade my other half to let me spend some serious dosh on this project - watch this space...

And thanks for the prompt and authoritative advice - UKAPS really is very special.


----------



## Ed Seeley (7 Dec 2008)

Glad to have helped.  We aim to please!  The one thing I'd say since writing the article is that you might want to get an even higher turnover filter!  I have a 2128 on another 180l tank and am thinking of adding a koralia to up the flow in there too!  Aim for at least 10x the tank's volume.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (7 Dec 2008)

Yeah, I've been trying to keep up with developments, and it's obvious maximum desirable flow is getting higher all the time, while manufacturers use pretty optimistic flow figures.  Plus I'd like to have an external heater and reactor, which will reduce flow (I think?)

As a total newbie it's difficult to know what's what, but I'm thinking of getting two filters - maybe 2x Tetratec EX 1200's?  Lights - something like an Arcadia OT2 luminaire... FE CO2... Rummynose tetras or neons... Shrimps... Snails? And plants... oooh, plants...


----------



## Ed Seeley (7 Dec 2008)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Yeah, I've been trying to keep up with developments, and it's obvious maximum desirable flow is getting higher all the time, while manufacturers use pretty optimistic flow figures.  Plus I'd like to have an external heater and reactor, which will reduce flow (I think?)
> 
> As a total newbie it's difficult to know what's what, but I'm thinking of getting two filters - maybe 2x Tetratec EX 1200's?  Lights - something like an Arcadia OT2 luminaire... FE CO2... Rummynose tetras or neons... Shrimps... Snails? And plants... oooh, plants...



That sounds like a good plan.  You're right about the CO2 reactor reducing flow and the heater will to a lesser extent too.  Personally I'd put one on each filter to spread the reductions.  You going with Aquasoil?  Those new Arcadia lights look very nice; can't wait to see some pictures!


----------



## paul.in.kendal (7 Dec 2008)

Don't know about substrate yet - I'm picking different elements of the job, and trying to get my head round them one at a time.  I'd like a dark substrate that doesn't need top-dressing (not quite the right term - my outdoor gardening roots are showing).


----------



## Ed Seeley (7 Dec 2008)

paul.in.kendal said:
			
		

> Don't know about substrate yet - I'm picking different elements of the job, and trying to get my head round them one at a time.  I'd like a dark substrate that doesn't need top-dressing (not quite the right term - my outdoor gardening roots are showing).



Well that sounds like Aausoil Amazonia to me!  Awesome substrate IMHO.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (7 Dec 2008)

Sounds good.

What about the tank itself?  I'd like Optiwhite glass, which I think means I have to go with Aquariums Ltd or Aqua Essentials.  But are there any off-the-shelf systems that are made in Opti-white? I guess the Juwel tanks are not, but perhaps another manufacturer does use it? If they do it might save money - even if some of the equipment needs upgrading.


----------



## Ed Seeley (7 Dec 2008)

As far as i know no major manufacturer makes Opti-white tanks.  Also with your very clear ideas on equipment you'd end up using none of the equipment it would come with so I'd just get the Opti-white tank for starters!  It's going to be an awesome tank when you get it going.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (7 Dec 2008)

Task 1 - persuade my other half I can get a tank
Task 2 - make sure she NEVER finds out how much it all costs!


----------



## Ed Seeley (7 Dec 2008)

Ha ha!  Good luck with those!  
For task 1 try showing her some set ups in a really good LFS and how much they will enhance your room (some photos off here might help too - just none with any equipment showing, algae farms or plants being re-planted!)
Task 2 requires spook levels of secrecy!  Women can smell money being spent I swear!!!


----------



## paul.in.kendal (7 Dec 2008)

The problem with the LFS suggestion is that all she'll notice are the puddles of water and the high humidity!  We're down to London over Xmas so I'm thinking of taking her to the London Aquarium - if that doesn't wow her, nothing will!  

And bribery might work - I'm going to suggest some snorkel-friendly holidays for next year - we went to Hurghada twenty years ago and she loved that!


----------



## Themuleous (8 Dec 2008)

I have often wondered about condensation problems, as I get condensation quite badly in my house.  Could be due to the open top 120x45cm tank in my living room.  The worse affected place is the front door which has single glazed windows in it.  That thing you could swim on there is so much water.  

The lack of double glazing could be the issue, as its the cold air temp outside the house that cools the windows and causes the condensation.  Im guessing that decent, modern double glazing is so good the internal temp of the glass doesn't drop sufficiently for the condensation to occur.

Sam


----------



## paul.in.kendal (8 Dec 2008)

We have some double glazing (no condensation) and some metal-framed single glazed panes set in wooden surrounds(mucho condensation).  I'm sure an open tank will add to the problem, but I'm going to assume that I'll be able to manage the problem either with a dehumidifier (good ideas as always, Mr S  ), or retrofitting cover glasses or even a hood, if necessary.


----------



## Ray (8 Dec 2008)

I've got a 90x45x50H (see my journal).  Flow requirement depends on plant density.  I have an Eheim 2028 (1050lph) + a 400lph internal filter (could also be a powerhead) are giving me plentiful circulation for my current planting level.  A 2076/8 would have allowed me to do without the internal.  Dan Crawford ran _just_ a 2028 on his 160l "Route to Wilderness" (all be it with 24/7 CO2) and JamesC uses a "small" powerhead to supplement his 2028 flow on his 200l 4' tank.

If your other half isn't interested in fish she will never imagine how much it all costs (pay cash where possible).  But if she isn't interested in fish, she might get jealous of the tank, so some kind of buy in is helpful - especially if you flood the living room and then get green water like I did (even I had had enough by then).

Aquasoil is superb substrate, but watch the ammonia spikes, I'd consider soaking the AS or fishless cycling it if you don't have mature filters from day 1.

Oh, I'm evaporating about 1 inch or 10 litres/week at 25 degrees, room temp 22 degrees.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (8 Dec 2008)

I've already read through your journal, Ray (nice stand -   ).  Your experiences, as well as the aspirational stuff, are what makes this forum so incredible.  That's not to say your latest pictures are anything short of aspirational, of course - but the mistakes you made and shared on the Forum are really useful, too.  Your algae issues    made me realise how important it is to get max flow and plant heavily - and I mean HEAVILY! Interesting to see others bunging in bunches of floating plants to begin with, to help in the early days. 

Flooding the living room? I'm not even contemplating it - I reckon a thought-through water-change routine from the outset will be essential. And proper kit, carefully installed, should avoid any silly accidents (shouldn't it?) 

I'm confident that, once it's going, she herself will be won over - planted tanks look so beautiful even in static 2D, she can't help but love the real thing.

Substrate - I'm pretty patient, so I'm intending to go for fishless cycling anyway. Although the AS ammonia spikes do seem a hassle - aren't there other good substrates that don't do this?


----------



## Ed Seeley (8 Dec 2008)

The ammonia from the AS at the start is not a big deal IME, especially if you are fishless cycling.  In fact it saves having to add an ammonia source!  Once the nitrite is down to 0 your can add Otos and possibly shrimp to stay on top of any algae and then wait a while longer until you add other fish.  This gives you a nice long time into adding the fish and your filter and tank will be so mature that you can add a nice shoal of 20 tetras in one go IME.

If you do have anyone nearby then if you can get some mature filter media it will speed up the maturation lots - shame you're all the way up in Kendal!


----------



## paul.in.kendal (9 Dec 2008)

Shame you're all the way down in Nottingham  

My LFS is two minutes away - not much good, mind, but I reckon I could cadge some active filter media off them. But Kendal has no fishkeeping club, and LFS says no-one does planted tanks up here - got the impression they're just not interested  

Still, one good thing about Kendal is that my garden is crammed with rock - the whole town is awash with the stuff - so I'm hoping I can economise on hardscape!

Re. that shoal of tetras - how did you know?!  As a first-time fishkeeper, I almost feel obliged to consider a shoal of neons as the major population for my first tank.  It seems keeping them is almost as much a rite of passage as goldfish (which I missed out on, too).  But the phenomenal affection shown on these pages for rummynose tetras means they're high up the list too.


----------



## paul.in.kendal (9 Dec 2008)

Oops, I've just looked at my own posts and realised I'd mentioned the neons and/or rummies already   -so you're not psychic after all.

But how about the size of that tetra shoal?  In a 90x45x45 tank, how big should it be?


----------



## Ed Seeley (9 Dec 2008)

Well I am a teacher mate so nearly psychic!!!  Personally I like to get smaller fish and add much bigger shoals.  The tiny fish in a big shoal of 30 or so give a real fake sense of scale.  I'd look at some of the microrasboras, Lampeye killifish (which I've just bought), Pseudomugil rainbows, small danios and maybe tiny tetras like Ember tetras.  Another advantage of the smaller fish is that you can keep shrimp more sauccessfully as they are a lot less able to eat the babies due to the smaller mouths!

If you want to go with standard sized tetras then neons are nice but cardinals are way more classy...  I'd get at least 20 still.


----------



## plantbrain (9 Dec 2008)

Nice modern windows are the real cure, but in light of that, I've had to go to a dehumidifyer and a fan with 5 open top aquariums in my place, mould city otherwise..........

PITA, not bad when it's low humidity here in /CA like most of the year, but the wet cool winters are murder.
You folks would feel right at home. I've not seen the sun in 2-3 weeks, fog........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## paul.in.kendal (9 Dec 2008)

Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Personally I like to get smaller fish and add much bigger shoals.  The tiny fish in a big shoal of 30 or so give a real fake sense of scale.  I'd look at some of the microrasboras, Lampeye killifish (which I've just bought), Pseudomugil rainbows, small danios and maybe tiny tetras like Ember tetras.  Another advantage of the smaller fish is that you can keep shrimp more sauccessfully as they are a lot less able to eat the babies due to the smaller mouths!


See, fish are completely unknown territory for me.  I can see the attraction of a nice orderly shoal, so the rummies reputation for that had me thinking along those lines.  And I had an uncle who had well-lit neons in a tank in a purple painted hallway (yes, an arty type) that wowed me as a child.  And I certainly would prefer lots of littl'uns - I still have slight reservations about keeping anything captive, so tiny fish in a (relatively) big tank makes sense. Sorry if this offends anyone, but there we are - I suppose that worry won't go until I've kept some happy little breeders and can see for myself that they are enjoying themselves.  

I've looked at static images of different fish on the web, of course.  It's obvious that fish have very different habits and movement characteristics that you can only appreciate firsthand - but with one poxy LFS with unmarked tanks, it makes trying to get a feel for what's out there next to impossible.  But that list of suggestions will certainly help focus things when I get a chance to visit a decent store.

Can you tell my interest in this hobby was spiked by the plants, not the fish?  


			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> Nice modern windows are the real cure, but in light of that, I've had to go to a dehumidifyer and a fan with 5 open top aquariums in my place, mould city otherwise.


We've got big 1930's bay windows with leaded lights that look a treat, but I know we'll have to rip 'em out sooner or later. Cost a fortune...

Sounds like you're in San Fran, Tom - nice! Never mind cool winters, we've just had a ton of snow as only northern England can do it - soggy, slushy, icy and 'orrible!


----------



## beeky (10 Dec 2008)

It's not the condensation on the windows that's a problem in our house, but we have 9" thick solid walls that get cold and condensation forms on them. We've only been in the house a year so this is the first time we've noticed mould forming just above the skirting boards. And no, I don't even have an open topped tank!


----------



## Themuleous (17 Dec 2008)

Paul,

You might find this interesting, which I found the ofter day.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications ... 3020/30217

Sam


----------

