# Hydroponic Propogator setup



## Barbara Turner (9 Feb 2019)

Hi 
I'm looking at seting up a propogator to try and accelerate plant growth and provide some extra plants for my tank. Intial plan to to try some relativily slow growing Anubias and Buce. 

What do people think? 






 

Thanks in advance


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## X3NiTH (10 Feb 2019)

Clay Pebbles because of improved CEC, Rockwool is suitable but it's nasty stuff when dry (inhalation hazard).

This is a good read -

*How Not to Overwater a Rheophyte*


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## X3NiTH (10 Feb 2019)

Aquaponics, I plan this stuff in my head all the time except this one thought grew to wanting a polytunnel in the garden after I binged watched this blokes luscious veggie patch on YouTube -

*Rob Bob's Aquaponics & Backyard Farm*

It was the Ginger whatdunnit !


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## Simon Cole (10 Feb 2019)

Hi again Barbara,

My first thought was that the 10W lighting unit is going to be a bit weak. I've grown plants under LED floodlights that were 10W, 20W and 50W before, but I never really adopted the technology. Many of my floodlights broke within a couple of weeks, or had major conformity and health and safety problems. Most of the units I bought required an additional earth circuit connection because they were not grounded. The second issue I have had with these units is that they often include the incorrect driver (so you would have a 20W driver powering a 50W unit) and these needed to be replaced. There are some good LED floodlight producers, so my advise would be to choose a good brand and you should avoid these problems. Check out Big Clive's videos here if you get a chance and would like to find out more. Personally I would build an array of waterproof high output LED strips. I would say strips have these advantages: cheap, replaceable, 12V so less likely to cause electrocution, about 900 lumens per metre, and controllable dimming).

Nothing else stands out, but you would benefit from a second return pipe in case the first one gets blocked.


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## Barbara Turner (10 Feb 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> Clay Pebbles because of improved CEC, Rockwool is suitable but it's nasty stuff when dry (inhalation hazard).
> 
> This is a good read -
> 
> *How Not to Overwater a Rheophyte*



Interesting about the low nutrients, sounds like the crushed clay balls will work well.

Interesting comment about still needed watering daily,  give all the plants a good spray and leave the lid off for 5 minutes to avoid any mould twice a day. 

I'll crunch some numbers for lighting, 

Reading up on a few websites there up at 600 µmol/s hopefully this will work with a 6 hours on 2 hours off cycle. 



Simon Cole said:


> I've grown plants under LED floodlights that were 10W, 20W and 50W



The reason behind only having 10w of light, was based on a Russian guy with an amazing collection of anubias, he recommends 0.5w per cubic decimeter. 

https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com...-collection-anubias.html#/topics/69991?page=8




https://www.aquaticplantcentral.com...-collection-anubias.html#/topics/69991?page=8


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## zozo (10 Feb 2019)

Simon Cole said:


> Nothing else stands out, but you would benefit from a second return pipe in case the first one gets blocked.



Check these out
https://www.banggood.com/Double-Cor...ight-Hard-Bar-Cabinet-Lamp-12V-p-1088116.html

SMD 8520 dual chip, ive been using them for quite a while now and absolutely satisfied. 

8520 stands for 8.5mm long and 2mm width LED Chip and it contains 2 leds in this dimension. That doubles the output to about 65 lumen per chip x 36 = over 2000 lumen per 50 cm strip. at DC 12 volt - 9 watt consumption. Easily controlable with a PWM controller.

www.aliexpress.com/item/5pcs-50cm-High-bright-DC-12V-36-SMD-Korea-2-chips-18W-M-8520-LED-Hard/32373288003.html


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## dw1305 (10 Feb 2019)

Hi all, 





Barbara Turner said:


> sounds like the crushed clay balls will work well.


Looks a good set-up. You can get <"Hydroleca etc."> in a range of sizes, but even if you have a large grade I would use them intact.
I'd try a standard 12 hour day for the light, and I would start with 1/3 strength EI or less as well.

cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (10 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> What do people think?


Pea sized clay balls. Hydroponic propagators sometimes have a spray bar which has four heads that produce a mist as apposed to the aquarium type of spray bar. Could be worth considering. They are sold separately if needed from hydroponic shops.


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## Oldguy (10 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> What do people think?


Pea sized clay balls. Consider a hydroponic spar bar, they have four heads and produce a coarse mist. They are available from hydroponic suppliers.


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## Barbara Turner (10 Feb 2019)

My local garden centre has closed down and the next two I visited looked confused when I asked if they stocked clay balls..I must confess I don't know what there normally used for, I probably should have found the closest hydroponics shop.. 
Hopefully 50/50  perlite and vermiculite will be okay as I picked up a bag of each.

I've ordered some plants from Poland so don't want two wait weeks for stuff to arrive. 



Oldguy said:


> Hydroponic propagators sometimes have a spray bar which has four heads that produce a mist as apposed to the aquarium type of spray bar.





 
Do you mean this kind of thing?  I imagine they need a far higher pressure than my 15w aquarium pump will deliver. 
I also need to have a high enough flow to keep the propagator warm in the garage as I'm only heating the water in the sump.


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## X3NiTH (10 Feb 2019)

I wouldn't use Perlite as its magnitudes worse than rockwool on the inhalation hazard front, it's an inhalation hazard for fish also if the plants eventually end up in an Aquarium with fish.

https://university.upstartfarmers.com/blog/perlite-in-hydroponics

If you can't get Hydroton locally (highly likely that a hydroponics shop will have this) then I would get it online.


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## X3NiTH (10 Feb 2019)

I had a look for you and there is a Hydroponics shop in Derby (found on Yell and has an active website), looks well supplied so probably well worth paying it a visit.

https://www.tropicannahorticulture.com
Unit 1a, Upperdale Yard, Colombo St, Derby, Derbyshire, DE23 8LW

CANNA Aqua Clay Pebbles £14/20kg

If you were looking to use a root stimulant to help things along they also stock RHIZOTONIC. I use this in my tank at water change and it really helps with Bucephalandra root proliferation and health.


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## Oldguy (10 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> Do you mean this kind of thing?


Mine has only four outlets in the shape of an 'H' with an outlet at each of the four corners and came with a tiny power head. I also use one as a feed for a trick filter running of a by pass from a canister filter, all very low pressure stuff. 

Garden centers unfortunately have become out of town shopping experiences. Industrial estate hydroponic units are the places to go. Some have very 'specialist plant' interests, however it brings the price of hardware down for the rest of use.


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## Simon Cole (11 Feb 2019)

X3NiTH said:


> I wouldn't use Perlite as its magnitudes worse than rockwool on the inhalation hazard front, it's an inhalation hazard for fish also if the plants eventually end up in an Aquarium with fish.



I use perlite as a filter media. I never thought it could pose any risk to livestock, so I grateful for this heads up.


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## zozo (11 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> Do you mean this kind of thing? I imagine they need a far higher pressure than my 15w aquarium pump will deliver.



Yes they do and also need to be installed in a looped tubing system to evenly devide the pressure. 


 

Else the first nozzle gets the most and the last nozzle the least pressure. I'm not sure about the spray nozzles, but there are also drip nozzles. They are constructed with a small internal labirynth, so they do not start giving water on immediate contact, the labitynths counter pressure works as a sort of time release allowing an equal presure buildup in the loop before it starts to release. I guess the spray nozzles use simular construct..

The backdrop is, the labirynth is rather senstive to cloging with dispensing miniralized water.. Regularly flushing the system with a light formic acid solution as maintenance is a pre..


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## Barbara Turner (22 Feb 2019)

Hi All 
Propigator is all setup and has been running for about a week. The setup was slightly different to planned. I put in an Anubias nana in to check it was okay and it's growing really well. 
Anubias stardust only went in today. (fingers crossed  and toes crossed) 

Now it's all working I need to build a nice cabinet and light stand for it.

The humidity sits at 100% but I still want to add a misting system I'm currently spraying by hand 3x a day, I bought a cheap humidifier but haven't manage to bypass the capacitive switch to allow me to run it from a timer, I've then got to work out how to plum it in, I doubt the fan will like being in a loop. 

I'm still 50/50 about switching to high pressure pump and a spray nozzle. I was as looking at the following but not a clue how to connect it up, or how many nozzles I need? 
63l/h micro irrigation spray nozzle 
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/150828976629
*12V 130PSI 6L/Min  Water Pump *
*https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/192587571758*

Will 6mm pvc tubing take 130psi? 


Heres a photo of the plants 


 

Pump is set on a timer 15mins on fill /  15mins off drain cycle, this ebb and flow setup ensures a really good flow of nutrients to the roots, keeping them moist and aerated. The level is limited my a large drain in the centre. 



 

I went for 2 x 20w floodlight if it was too bright I can always turn one off. 

Thanks for all the tips and advice

Ps  I've also added some Canna Rhizotonic rooting compound, does everyone dose at the recommended 1:250?


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## zozo (23 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> Ps I've also added some Canna Rhizotonic rooting compound, does everyone dose at the recommended 1:250?



I also did with less.. The thing is this stuff realy rocks but is darn expensive for using it as permanent addition. Regarding description it can be used permanently.. You can and it can't hurt, but as most additions it aint an absolute nessecity.. So if the plants are mature ann healthy enough it could be considered a spoilage.

What is does it definitively speeds up healthy root development and growth in cuttings, seedlings and or stressed plants in transplant shock. 

Than if you like to use it permenantly, than after an initila boost dosage with watering the plants, switch to dosing it as spraying agent with 4ml deluted in 1 litre distilled water, is much more effective from an economic viewpoint.  and still 1:250

To prevent staining i alternetely use 2 spray bottles, 1 with only distilled water and 1 with Rhizo.. 

1 day spraying Rhizo and what doesn't land on the leaves ends up in the soil. 2 days later i spray clean distilled water and all that yet isn't taken up and runs off ends up in the soil again..  That leaves you with 250 x 1 litre spray bottles you use alternately every 3th day.

That is imho the most effective and economic way to use it.. 

Till now including myself, everybody copient this advice only reported postive results.
https://glassboxgardeners.com/threads/jasons-scape-father-nature.557/page-2#post-6530

Note Cana, even tho they produce top quality fert solutions, it is and stays a commercial company.. Thus probably also have top quality marketing managers economicaly recomending heavenly dosages and usage in their favor..


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## Barbara Turner (23 Feb 2019)

zozo said:


> 1 day spraying Rhizo and what doesn't land on the leaves ends up in the soil. 2 days later i spray clean distilled water and all that yet isn't taken up and runs off ends up in the soil again..  That leaves you with 250 x 1 litre spray bottles you use alternately every 3th day.



Thanks for the tip on the canna Rhizotonic, I'll try it. 
Can you combine it with EI macro?  Possibly also alternate micro and macro spray.


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## zozo (23 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> Thanks for the tip on the canna Rhizotonic, I'll try it.
> Can you combine it with EI macro?  Possibly also alternate micro and macro spray.



Yes it can be used in any combination without issues but it's not a micro repacement it's a more of a Homrone and Vitamine solution. You might want to monitor pH.. Because this stuff is pretty alkaline.. With emersed setups and no lifestock you could keep a rather low pH schedule, depending in the plant sp. down to pH 6 or even lower towards pH 5. Ion exanche at lower pH is much better and can have very positive effects on plant development. Than with adding Rhizo and it's alkalinity you will rais pH. For example if the base solution already is pH 7 it might shoot up to pH8.5 after adding Rhizo in recomended dose. Than bringing it back down with a few drops of accid will benefit.

Some fert solution contain acids maybe to keep it beter in solution. This can undesirably lower pH. Than Rhizo can be used to bring it back up. In this case dosage is trail and error according pH profile.

And never use Rhizo in combination with H2O2, it will break down Rhizo due to it's high organic content. Than if you like to use H2O2 for desinfection or Algae treat wait for it to stop reacting before dosing Rhizo..


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## Barbara Turner (28 Feb 2019)

zozo said:


> And never use Rhizo in combination with H2O2, it will break down Rhizo due to it's high organic content. Than if you like to use H2O2 for desinfection or Algae treat wait for it to stop reacting before dosing Rhizo



Talk of the devil.. Looks like i have some green slime algae / cyanobacteria, I guess I shouldn't be surprised with high light.  

Does anyone if you can kill it off with glut or do I need to buy some hydrogen peroxide? 

Is the correct dose 
"The recommended amount of 3% solution of peroxide per gallon of water in hydroponics is around 3ml per liter" 
I measured the water in my resivoir at 15 litres so this gives me 45ml of peroxide. 

Ive also changed my water cycle to 15mins on 45mins off, I thought this would give the cyanobacteria a far harder time.


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## foxfish (28 Feb 2019)

That is a great little experiment, I have never found a high limit using an artificial light source, I keep numerous outdoor emersed set ups during the warmer months. I keep them in partial shade but in full evening sun.
I think it would of been great if you could of filled and drained the tank to a higher level so the plants became totally emersed for say 5 mins every eliminated hour. 
I have no idea if that would work but I think it might.


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## zozo (28 Feb 2019)

Why is the waterlevel so high? That gives you a lot of little stagnant puddles for algae to grow and accumulate. Lower the water to a deeper level, so that it gets no light. The pebbles will soak water up and stay moist, that's all a plant needs, it doesn't need to be a constant over the top soaking wett puddle.

At least that's what it looks like in the last picture.. Looking like the drain is situated to high..

Have a look at the bell syphon  it actualy is quite simple to diy.. Its a cuntinious cycle of flood and drain automated by force of nature. In this type of system aquatic algae doesn't get much of a chance to grow.


Personaly i would drain it, mechanicaly remove the algae infested top layer.. Clean it or replace it and rethinck and rebuild the system to keep the water level lower in the substrate.

Tho in the transparent container bellow is the algae breeding box.. Tape it off to get it dark in there.


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## dw1305 (28 Feb 2019)

Hi all,





Barbara Turner said:


> Looks like i have some green slime algae / cyanobacteria


Looking at the colour ("grass green") I think it is probably a green algae, rather than a cyanobacteria (BGA), which would have some darker colours.





zozo said:


> Lower the water to a deeper level, so that it gets no light. The pebbles will soak water up and stay moist, that's all a plant needs, it doesn't need to be a constant over the top soaking wett puddle.


That would be my suggestion as well.

cheers Darrel


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## Oldguy (28 Feb 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> green slime algae / cyanobacteria,


Looks more like green slime than bga, but difficult to tell from photo. H2O2 is effective as a topical application, child's/artists paint brush. I use 6% it works better. As you know you can buy it from a chemists. If you think that you need lots or stronger, then eBay 1 litre bottle at 11% is a good buy. (need a license for 12% and above or have a friend who is a ladies hairdresser). Topical application should have little effect on other reagents in your setup. Professional growers use algae-sides, typically copper based. As stated above a low water level would help and as @zozo said black out everything that does not have plants growing in it.


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## Barbara Turner (28 Feb 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Looking at the colour ("grass green") I think it is probably a green algae, rather than a cyanobacteria (BGA), which would have some darker colours.



Only reason I didn't think it wasn't hair algae was it was forming bubbles and floating on the surface (abit like this stock image (but obviously not as bad) 


 



Oldguy said:


> H2O2 is effective as a topical application, child's/artists paint brush. I use 6% it works better.



I found a small bottle of h202 in the first aid kit (3%) so added 15ml along with 15ml of excel carbon (glut).  To make sure it was going to kill it,  I put all the worst affected balls in a glass with a mixture water, macro EI solution,  along with a few drops of glut and H202  these were placed under the floodlight. By this afternoon all the algae/ cynobacteria has turned a nice white dead colour. 

The propogator is also looking almost completely free. 

I'll do another water change tomorrrow and possibly only dose H202 and macro solution. 





zozo said:


> Have a look at the bell syphon  it actualy is quite simple to diy.



The setup I copied is so much simpiler.

The aquarium pump goes to a bulkhead fitting in the centre with the inlet as close to the bottom as possible. 
The water level is then set by a second pipe, I made mine from a short section of 1" pvc waste pipe, (i put a mesh flower pot arround it so you don't loose half your clay balls down the hole. 

When the pump is running it quickly fills the propogator till it reaches the overflow pipe. (this height controls the height of the water level)

As soon as you turn off the pump gravity takes over and the water quickly flows back down the pipe and through the pump emptying the propogator. 





 




zozo said:


> Personaly i would drain it, mechanicaly remove the algae infested top layer.. Clean it or replace it and rethinck and rebuild the system to keep the water level lower in the substrate.



I'm not impressed with the clay balls, If i can get hold of some small plant pots I'll get rid of all the clay balls and put the plants in small pots either filled up with smashed up clay balls or tropica aquarium soil.


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## zozo (1 Mar 2019)

Barbara Turner said:


> I'm not impressed with the clay balls, I



It indeed isn't a good aqauponic media for propagation, it's from the hydroculure era used on mature well developed large plants. And hydroculture is a entire different concept compaired to aquaponic.. And for propagation you ca best use a more light weight media, much easier for the small fragile plant roots to penetrate deeper into the media.

But anyway if you use inert media you need a complete fert sulution than if you don't want to make a mess with perlite or cocofiber you can use rockwool starter plugs and transpanting cubes and stick this into the main media such as the clay balls. Makes it easier for an initial start for the plant and its easier for you to handle..
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grodan-Rockwool-Plant-Plugs-50-Pack/dp/B0030KJUQC

You also could choose Agra wool or Mapito flakes as main media also very lights weight.. Plants grow faster and stronger on light weight media, it takes much less energy for them to grow their roots deeper. And this is what it plant initialy needs first, strong roots before it starts to grow and mature leafs and stems.

This you can monitor with for example the transplant cubes.. If you put a small plant in it, you wont see much happening in growth the first 2 weeks maybe.. But when you take out the cube and look at the bottom tha you notice little fat white roots sticking out while the plant itself above ground didn't do much at all, yet. Beeing able to monitor and check this, yoou knoow you are on the right track or if not investigate why the plant doesn't want to root. If you need to wait on dying foliage as reference you actualy are to late, dying foilage can mean root rot instead of growth.


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