# fishie related petition - sign?



## catxx (24 Aug 2011)

Hi all!
I popped this e-petition on the Government's website, sign if you agree!
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/11399


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## Iliveinazoo (24 Aug 2011)

Good point but to be honest I would prefer a ban on the sale of any aquatic species that grows larger than 30cm.


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## Gill (24 Aug 2011)

Totally Unrealistic Drivel. 

It would be much better for people to be educated better in how they should keep Goldfish.


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## catxx (25 Aug 2011)

was there a need for that, Gill? ever heard of "if you haven't got anything nice to say...don't say it"?

yes there are about a dozen different routes and this is one. I don't see a ban on a fish over 30cm happening, that would put a dampener on Koi sales for sure...


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## Tom (25 Aug 2011)

4 food tank minimum for goldfish? Really?


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## clonitza (25 Aug 2011)

Tom said:
			
		

> 4 foot tank minimum for goldfish? Really?


Well, they kinda need that tank size at maturity.


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## catxx (25 Aug 2011)

Tom said:
			
		

> 4 food tank minimum for goldfish? Really?



considering a common or comet Goldfish gets huge and is as messy as an Oscar, yes! this is the problem, no one wants to admit how much space fish like these really need.


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## George Farmer (25 Aug 2011)

Gill said:
			
		

> Totally Unrealistic Drivel.


Goldfish and their stocking is often a cause for heated debate, but please bear in mind the UKAPS Rules and Guidelines when posting comments.  

They are posted at the top of every forum.


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## Tom (25 Aug 2011)

Comets fair enough a pond would be the best bet, but for the average fancy goldfish wont get half that size. Some might, course. The trouble you'll face trying to change something like this is that it would be too damaging to the industry to enforce. Imagine how much would be lost on sales if there was a minimum tank requirement. 

I'm all for stopping fairs giving fish as prizes, and goldfish bowls etc. I'm just not sure how do-able it would be to enforce minimum sizes of around 4 foot! Maybe if shops (like many do) would refuse sales for unfiltered tanks that might be a more practical start. 

Tom


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## catxx (25 Aug 2011)

Tom said:
			
		

> Comets fair enough a pond would be the best bet, but for the average fancy goldfish wont get half that size. Some might, course. The trouble you'll face trying to change something like this is that it would be too damaging to the industry to enforce. Imagine how much would be lost on sales if there was a minimum tank requirement.
> 
> I'm all for stopping fairs giving fish as prizes, and goldfish bowls etc. I'm just not sure how do-able it would be to enforce minimum sizes of around 4 foot! Maybe if shops (like many do) would refuse sales for unfiltered tanks that might be a more practical start.
> 
> Tom



the point of the petition was not to set a minimum tank size (which would indeed be impossible to enforce) but to restrict sales of very small unfiltered bowls as fish tanks. the bit at the bottom was merely a mini-rant at how much space these fish need. take away the possibility of buying a 1 gallon goldfish bowl and the buyer will have to think again about this possible "pet" their kids were considering.

exhibit A:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 937AAG0bet


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## clonitza (25 Aug 2011)

The common goldfish grows about 12 inch or more. Anyway most of them won't have that chance unfortunately.
Regardless the fish I'd like to see a law that enforces pet shops to display a full size picture of the fish at maturity and a minimum of specs for the tank. 

Mike


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## George Farmer (25 Aug 2011)

The sad fact is that the majority perceive goldfish (and other species) purely as floating ornaments.  To change this perception through appropriate education is the key to success, I feel.


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## J Butler (25 Aug 2011)

clonitza said:
			
		

> The common goldfish grows about 12 inch or more. Anyway most of them won't have that chance unfortunately.
> Regardless the fish I'd like to see a law that enforces pet shops to display a full size picture of the fish at maturity and a minimum of specs for the tank.
> 
> Mike



That would certainly have an impact on the ill-informed customer who takes a shine to the cute little red tailed catfish on display! Whether the LFS selling the deceptive behemoth would do it is another question entirely... 

Enforcement of such things is always going to be where they fall down though I imagine.


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## Tom (25 Aug 2011)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> The sad fact is that the majority perceive goldfish (and other species) purely as floating ornaments.  To change this perception through appropriate education is the key to success, I feel.



Yep, it's going to be down to the shops as to what they do or don't stock I reckon, rather than a change of law.


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## Gill (25 Aug 2011)

What I said was Harsh, But Banning Bowls would do nothing but create more problems. 
If a Minimum Tank size no less that a gallonwas brought in, it would create alot of problems for the Nano/Pico market. And then you have to consider other business' that use Goldfish Bowls in their field of trade: Florists, Cake companies, Sweet Retailers, Decorators, Candle Shops. 
Of course If a ban came into place, Goldfish bowls would simply be rebranded as vases and continue to be sold. Already happening at the moment in some shops. I have seen Goldfish Bowls simply renamed as vases.


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## bogman (25 Aug 2011)

unfortunately goldfish are still seen by the majority of the population as a cheap pet for a child that is not going to be around too long (the fish that is not the child!), the idea of a life sized cutout of an adult, now that is not a bad idea, plus make it compulsory that this image is to be taped to the front center of any tank containing gold fish that are for sale, if you really want your government to sit up and take notice, suggest a £5 tax on each and every goldfish imported or sold in the country. hey presto all ministers eyes and ears are open!


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## ghostsword (25 Aug 2011)

It is a hard one to fix. Many shops make money on bread and butter fish like goldfish, they are bought, then people kill them, then as they already have a bowl they come back for more.

I was doing a talk at a local school and even the teachers were surprised at how long a goldfish lives if they are taken care off. I told them that 2 months are not normal lifespan for a goldfish, and anything under 50l is a waste to get for a run of the mill fish. 




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- .


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## howanic (25 Aug 2011)

A fish shop near me has just put two fancies in a BABY biOrb on display. Aaaarrrrgh......


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## fishfingers (25 Aug 2011)

I wonder how many of the people who are so agaist this have themselves kept goldfish in a bowl when they where kids i know i did its what got me started in this hobby. its easy to take the moral high ground and say that this should not go on but this is where kids learn about life and death we shouldnt keep hamsters in a cage or rabbits in a hutch but we do. If keeping a goldfish in a bowl as a child educates and encurages the next generation to take up this fasinateing hobby then so be it.


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## catxx (26 Aug 2011)

howanic said:
			
		

> A fish shop near me has just put two fancies in a BABY biOrb on display. Aaaarrrrgh......



This is why shops can't be entirely relied on to give out proper info, the bad apples out there will still sell things that they can get away with.

I have no problem with glass bowls instead being sold as vases, that's fine, things like this are the problem and still sold in many pet shops as fish bowls, a florist is not going to use one of these as its hideous.






Yes it's a tricky one! And things like this little petition I would like to think, if it got enough signatures, the Government would be FORCED into thinking about the fishkeeping industry.


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## catxx (26 Aug 2011)

fishfingers said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of the people who are so agaist this have themselves kept goldfish in a bowl when they where kids i know i did its what got me started in this hobby. its easy to take the moral high ground and say that this should not go on but this is where kids learn about life and death we shouldnt keep hamsters in a cage or rabbits in a hutch but we do. If keeping a goldfish in a bowl as a child educates and encurages the next generation to take up this fasinateing hobby then so be it.



I kept a Betta in a bowl, not a Goldfish, the thing got ich and fin rot, did my research and upgraded him to a 5 gallon proper filtered, heated tank, had him for a few years in the end! I wouldn't have done if he'd stayed in the bowl.

I'm a big rabbit keeper too, big on rabbit welfare! This is my bunny set up, they are never shut into the hutch, that's a WHOLE different discussion!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/catxx/5696516127/


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## echinod (26 Aug 2011)

Your conversation can be compared to a group of pseudo-environmentalists call.
Prohibiting killing animals, instead of fighting for their good treatment.
By what right and reasoning you compare the requirements of the goldfish to the requirements of other species. 
Species with your breeding in the wild live in large tanks, even though the fish are smaller. Subsequent rewriting of literary nonsense!

Let's keep the way you want fish, preserving their welfare.


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## sanj (26 Aug 2011)

Some in the industry still promote tiny tanks and bowls for goldfish and in my view that is totally inappropriate. One cant then be surprised when Joe clueless thinks its all fine and dandy to keep the fish in a poor environment.

The goldfish bowl is very well entrenched, education I think is the best way, it would help if the aquatics industry was not so contradictory about it.


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## echinod (26 Aug 2011)

It would be useful explain to people how the fish behave during the oxygen deficit.
Goldfish like fresh water. You can change water twice a week and goldfish will be in good mood.
It is important to maintain your pet in observation and  proper diet. 

Just as with the bigger dog that has a larger doghouse.

It is possible to keep fancy goldfish in the bowl in good conditions 
 I know this from personal experience and I don't think that injure my pets in any way.

Bans is not a solution. Who had a goldfish knows that the difference in their behavior. There are supporters of dogs and cats supporters, supporters of goldfish and supporters Tanganyika fish.


Maybe could you have a small aquarium in comparison 34.4 thousand. sq km lake?


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## ghostsword (28 Aug 2011)

I think that to house properly a gold fish on a bowl, unless it is a large bowl, one would need to change water several times per day. 

That said, attach a large filter to a biorb, and it maybe would be good.  Just as well that my kids started their fish keeping with manzy wood, neons and guppies, and know that having a filter is important, and changing water.  

All hangs on education, at schools, forums, pet shops, etc.


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## catxx (29 Aug 2011)

So far as I see it, if this little petition got enough votes to go up before the Government they would be forced to have a similar discussion as all you guys have just done and surely that would be a good thing? I still hear of secondary school science experiments involving teachers handing out Goldfish or Guppies for kids to try and keep alive in half a plastic 2 litre coke bottle  

Educating joe public about proper fishkeeping needs to start with those who do the teaching in the first place, and so far as I can see many aquatic shops try their darndest to educate fish bowl people into why its wrong, to only have the phrase "well I've done it before and it was FINE" thrown back in their face, said would-be-customer storms out and goes to the nearest crappier pet shop and buys that Goldfish and Goldfish starter kit anyway.


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## echinod (29 Aug 2011)

Still, no one gave sensible reasons why you should not keep goldfish in ball.


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## ghostsword (29 Aug 2011)

I would think of much more reasons not to, but if not for the fish for ourselves then: Bowls are boring, dirty looking, and too tacky.

Here are five reasons why you should avoid using a goldfish bowl:

*Goldfish bowls are too small. 
*
Goldfish can easily grow to several inches in length with good care, and monster goldfish of over six inches are not unheard of. Now, imagine living in a room the size of your bed. That’s about the equivalent for a goldfish in a bowl. Not nice.

*They can deprive goldfish of oxygen. *
Goldfishes need oxygen from the water, just like we need oxygen from the air. Too little oxygen and they become stressed, and may even die. One of the things that affects how much oxygen is in the water is the surface area, which is where the water meets the air. You can think of oxygen crossing over into water like fans at a football game going through a turnstile. A lot of fans and only a few turnstiles is a recipe for slow turnover. Similarly, a small surface area with a bigger volume of water below (caused by the bulging of the bowl) means not enough oxygen is getting through for your pet.

*Goldfish bowls are boring, for your fish and for you.*
 A goldfish bowl is too small to get much decoration into, so the fish is lucky to get some gravel or marbles and a pebble or two. Soon you’ve got a fish too bored to swim and an owner too bored to care. Not a recipe for healthy goldfish.

*Bowls get dirty too quickly.*
 Some new kinds of bowls include filters, but the traditional goldfish bowl isn’t compatible with the technology that can keep an aquarium clean. Result: dirty water and gravel. Admittedly goldfish bowls are quick to clean, but only because they’re so small, and we’ve already discussed why that’s bad.

*You can only keep one goldfish in a bowl.*
 You might get by with a couple of inmates for a while, but sooner or later you’ll forget to do a water change or overfeed the fish and the bowl will pollute too quickly. With just one goldfish in a bowl this problem is somewhat reduced, but goldfish are friendly, naturally shoaling fish that prefer the company of their fellows. It’s cruel to keep them alone.


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## echinod (29 Aug 2011)

I have the ball and somehow I do not have a problem with dirty water. Spoof once a week. So that there was no problem with oxygen.
The ball does not fill completely. Through it has more the air-water contact.
As for the size of the tank. Fish grow more slowly in a small tank. An example might be dwarf forms of American catfish recessed into European waters. Besides it is known that fish will grow as it can be fitted with a larger tank.

Since when know the thoughts of fish. Is there bored? More so as you can say about Tropheus sp transferred from the great lake to a small aquarium.

Are you bored? If you love goldfish, I think you never be bored. Their behavior can be compared to the domesticated dog.


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## catxx (29 Aug 2011)

with common/comet Goldfish easily hitting 10" in the correct conditions, fancies at least 6", not including the tail, there is no way that kind of chunk should ever live in a 10L bowl. yes their growth slows and gets stunted, but that's by water quality NOT tank size. if you kept a small Goldfish in a 10L bowl and did manage to keep water quality correct it would try and grow quick, and then become extremely stressed, then die from stress related disorders.

bowls are a lose-lose situation for fish. the only exception being properly set up walstad tanks, of which aren't really suitable for Goldies as they are just too messy to keep that delicate balance stable.


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## ghostsword (29 Aug 2011)

echinod said:
			
		

> As for the size of the tank. Fish grow more slowly in a small tank. An example might be dwarf forms of American catfish recessed into European waters. Besides it is known that fish will grow as it can be fitted with a larger tank.
> .



This the clue that we are not on the same level of understanding. So the fish would grow slowly on a small tank? And you are justifying the size of american catfish when on European waters? As if an European lake or river was that much smaller than the american.    Have you thought that maybe the catfish grow smaller in Europe due to the water temperature? 

It's ok, no issue, I don't have to prove I am right to know that I am right.


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## echinod (30 Aug 2011)

Water quality is preserved by substitution.

Ignorance and lack of knowledge based on facts.

Someone has heard and repeated on ...


Maybe you start to catch crucian from forest ponds


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## catxx (30 Aug 2011)

echinod said:
			
		

> Water quality is preserved by substitution.



But doing this enough to keep a miserable Goldfish alive in a small unfiltered container will result in a stressed fish, water changes are a shock to fish and the size and quantity you'd need to do would be vastly more than in a proper establish BIG tank or a good sized established pond. And stress kill fish as we all know.



			
				echinod said:
			
		

> Maybe you start to catch crucian from forest ponds



I think it may be Kent, may be wrong, where there's a massive problem with released Goldfish, aka ornamental crucian carp, overwhelming lakes and rivers and damaging native ecology. So yes you can get these carp, and BIG too, in wild places in the UK.

I think Luis and I and yourself are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

In my eyes there is absolutely no excuse for not keeping a big messy fish like a Goldfish in anything less than huge over filtered tanks or large ponds. They need the same dimensions of housing as big Cichlids like Oscars and Midas.


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## ghostsword (30 Aug 2011)

I am sure that it is wrong keeping a big messy fish like a Goldfish in anything less than huge over filtered tanks or large ponds. They need the same dimensions of housing as big Cichlids like Oscars and Midas.

My kids also asked me about keeping a goldfish, so I told them that if they could stay all day inside the cupboard, eat on it, and use the toilet there also, I gave them a bucket, they could have one. The 7 year old tried, lasted for 2 hours.  lesson learnt. LOL

So now just guppies on the 30L tank, and just young fish, once they are large I take them to a local shop.


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## echinod (30 Aug 2011)

> But doing this enough to keep a miserable Goldfish alive in a small unfiltered container will result in a stressed fish, water changes are a shock to fish and the size and quantity you'd need to do would be vastly more than in a proper establish BIG tank or a good sized established pond. And stress kill fish as we all know.



Yes stress kill fish, but keeping fish in bowl doesn't mean stress.



> I think it may be Kent, may be wrong, where there's a massive problem with released Goldfish, aka ornamental crucian carp, overwhelming lakes and rivers and damaging native ecology. So yes you can get these carp, and BIG too, in wild places in the UK.



I guess you mean Carassius gibelio. He has bad meat and is stunted. There is no problem with Carassius auratus.
Which reaches the normal size and it is tasty. So do not is a problem for the rational fisheries and ecology.



> In my eyes there is absolutely no excuse for not keeping a big messy fish like a Goldfish in anything less than huge over filtered tanks or large ponds. They need the same dimensions of housing as big Cichlids like Oscars and Midas.



The size of the fish is not a determinant of the areas of its existence. We have small fish in big lakes and big fish in small ponds with oxygen deficit like Tinca tinca.


We are all about providing good conditions for fish. Let us not be the gauge, not everyone has to have a little ball and bad conditions in water.


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## catxx (30 Aug 2011)

echinod said:
			
		

> Yes stress kill fish, but keeping fish in bowl doesn't mean stress.



Yes it does. Keep a big growing fish in a small environment with fluctuating water quality it will become stressed. 



			
				echinod said:
			
		

> The size of the fish is not a determinant of the areas of its existence. We have small fish in big lakes and big fish in small ponds with oxygen deficit like Tinca tinca.



A pond/lake cannot be compared to a glass bowl sitting on a table. Ponds and lakes are FILTERED by rains, plants and earth, and the bacteria within the earth. Bowls are stagnant with an unstable water chemistry, especially if you have very messy fish in it. See: walstad method.


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## echinod (31 Aug 2011)

> Yes it does. Keep a big growing fish in a small environment with fluctuating water quality it will become stressed.



Childish shouting 



> A pond/lake cannot be compared to a glass bowl sitting on a table. Ponds and lakes are FILTERED by rains, plants and earth, and the bacteria within the earth. Bowls are stagnant with an unstable water chemistry, especially if you have very messy fish in it. See: walstad method.



I'll tell you just buy yourself a ball, oxygen meter, test the ammonia, and above all a goldfish, which probably you  never had not.


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## Tom (31 Aug 2011)

echinod said:
			
		

> > Yes it does. Keep a big growing fish in a small environment with fluctuating water quality it will become stressed.
> 
> 
> 
> Childish shouting



Yet true


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## sanj (31 Aug 2011)

echinod said:
			
		

> > Yes it does. Keep a big growing fish in a small environment with fluctuating water quality it will become stressed.
> 
> 
> 
> Childish shouting



I didnt see that comment as childish at all, rather a real and valid piont.


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## catxx (1 Sep 2011)

echinod said:
			
		

> I'll tell you just buy yourself a ball, oxygen meter, test the ammonia, and above all a goldfish, which probably you  never had not.



Why would I willingly torture a Goldfish? Besides, my local aquatic stores won't sell Goldfish to unfiltered tanks anyway, and have quite a few huge ones in too. I should never have to test for ammonia in my tanks. 

I have never had a Goldfish in a bowl. My parents had a brain and knew it was wrong so growing up, never had one. I did have a Betta in a bowl, he was lethargic, he got ich, he got fin rot, he got upgraded to a heated 30L filtered, planted and cycled tank and lived on for several years.


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