# 400 gallon.



## Edvet

There were plans of moving and making a new tank, but these are on hold, so i am in the proces of redoing the old tank. Thought i would document the progress.
Many moons ago it housed discus:







I changed it to a planted tank, which ran beautifull (high lighting, high co2, high ferts)



 
it even looked great from above




but one day "crashed", it got algea everywhere, plants went ugly etc etc.

I lost interest and let it dwindle a while.
The i got busy on a building project and let the tank go slow. Took everything out and only had Echinodorus horemanni in it.

Now i am going to start it up again, increasing the lighting over it again, replacing old mercurylamps with the new TMC 1500 tiles. Nor there are two 80w T5, two 150 w HQI, and for now one TMC tile,a second one is underway, and i am replacing the HQI bulbs for new ones.






So for now it doesn't realy look exciting, just trying to find out which plants will work and wich ones wont, gradually increasing lighting and started adding N, P and trace elements.





All are South american plants (as far as i know). Going for a nice terra firma creek biotope, just havent decided where and which, kind of a biotope fan here.

Edited photolinks


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## foxfish

That is a big tank, what are the dimensions and how are you dissolving the co2, what size gas cylinder are you using and how about the flow rates and filtration?
I realise you have a deep tank and I can't work out how many watts you will be using but it sound like a lot of light!


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## Gill

Lovely, I miss my big tank.


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## Edvet

Dimensions in cm 200 cm wide , left side is 80cm, right side is 120 cm, waterdepth is 75 cm. There is a big biological filter inplace under the tank (app 350 liter) as it was designed with discus in mind, so i needed good biological breakdown.
Seeing i have litle fishmass and a lot of plants the filter is on a very low volume now.





This pic shows the "innerworks" a bit

The compartments of the filter only have some siporax in them, app 10 liters in all, and some foam. On the right side the overflow drops through two 10x10 cm plastic pipe filled with bioballs.
I can push 2000 lit/hour through the system, but that takes out a lot of the CO2 i put in so i am not doing that.

Presurized Co2 is used and dissipated through a Dennerle CO2 Cyclo Turbo, but i just ordered 2 glass diffusors in Asia, i hope they arive in one piece

You can see one like it on the left side of the next picture





Fertilizing the tank: i use KNO3 and KH2Po4, and trace elements. When i originally set up the tank i caoted the bottem with a lateriteclay mixture and haven touched it since. It still provides elements as far as i can see. I added a heatingcable in the gravel to get some circulation in it. I never changed the bottom gravel in the all the years the tank has been there. It,s a riversand mixture wit fine to 3/4 mm sand, app 4-5 cm thick.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


Edvet said:


> it even looked great from above






Certainly did. What is the emersed plant with the dichotomous branching? It looks extraordinary, and I'm totally at a loss to even think of what type of plant it is.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

It's the same as the slightly bigger leaf just left behind it: Ceratopteris pteroides. It's a floating plant that can make these leaves in certain circumstances. High light and high temp.
I realy like it, except it takes a lot of nutrition out of the water and then grows very fast. It's an ideal floater over low/non-planted, high fish density aquaria, because of it's hunger for nitrites.


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## Edvet

just to give a size indication (old picture fro a few years ago)


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## jy_oc_hx

Bigger definitely is better!!  I love this.


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## dw1305

Hi all,
Lovely tank, I keep looking at big tanks, but I don't want to end up homeless.


Edvet said:


> Ceratopteris pteroides. It's a floating plant that can make these leaves in certain circumstances. High light and high temp.


Brilliant, I thought it was probably a fern but I would never have guessed. _Ceratopteris thalictroides_ regularly grows emersed  out of my tanks, but that is like a "Triffid".

cheers Darrel


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## flygja

That is freaking awesome!


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## Edvet

Update on the plants (i wil do a full frontal tonight) after one week
None are dead, some are strugling, some have taken of well.
Very well are doing:




Mayacca fluvatuilis




Hygrophila guianensis




and Persicaria sp 'Sao Paulo".

Reasonably good are doing:




Eichornia diversifolia




Hedyotis salzmanni




Myriophilum mattogrossense




Eichornia azurea and




Tonina fluvatilis

Little growth is yet to be seen on:




Staurogyne "Porto Velho" and




Tonina sp "Manaus" or Syngonanthus cf. inundatus as it is called nowadays.

Overall i am not dissapointed, there are some algae around, butt nothing unsightly for now. In a tank this size (waterheight is 30! inches)it will always be hard to get all plants growing optimal.
If i can get 4/6 species growing very well that will be enough to get a junglescape i have in my mind.


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## Edvet

Wel, there is growth.

17-8:


25-8:


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## Edvet

03-9: 



Trimmed Cabomba and Myriophillum. Added Alternanthera reineckii. Eichornia's, both diversifolia and azurea, are growing like there is no tomorow. I've reinstalled my big DIY CO2 diffusor ( a pvc pipe 10cmx50cm, filled with bioballs, CO2 enters bottomside, water enters topside), pH varies just below 6 (5.8-5.9) before lights on till 6.4-6.5 at lights out, thats after 8 hours. It stays on 24/7.
I have installed a second circulation pump (hydor koralia) so one puts out app 6000 lit/hr, the other one 12000 lit/hr. They are alternating every minute, one from right front side aimed to the middle of the backside, one from left backside aimed to middle frontside, so they are keeping up the same direction of flow, more or less. Algae are geting fewer, plant growth is  varying from good to little.


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## Edvet

Handheld Samsung S4 video, not great but it's a first


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## matt

Holy big tank Batman!!!


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## Edvet

Gathering courage to do a big "rescape" tomorow. Take out probably all plants en put them in more permanent places. It means me lying on the edge, belly in the water and diving goggles on.
Taking out and replacing them every few weeks isn't realy an option. i have to figure out which plants need highest maintenance and locating them where i can reach them more easily. Gonna try to get some Eichornia's to the surface eventually and let them get emersed leaves. I've gathered a ton of biotope pictures to try to get ideas. Probably going for a Rio Guapore themed tank. I just need to figure out how to get a slope going in this size tank. Probably will get some bogwood to make terrace-like structure..


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## AshRolls

Good luck Edvet, please take photos of you with the diving goggles on!


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## Edvet

For those who can see


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## Edvet

before:


after:


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## Edvet

replanted version, handheld from Samsung S4: (nevermind the sound Missus is cooking)


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## Tim Harrison

That's just plain bonkers ...surely it'd be easier to grow longer arms...


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## Edvet

plantbrain said:


> I see no good reason to ever add CO2 24/7. ADA and myself are in agreement about a number of things, this is one of them. Amano says it is "taboo"(his words, not mine).


 Read this and don't want to contaminate his journal.
I need to keep it on for 24/7 otherwise i wont get enough CO2 in the water. I loose a lot through my biofilter, my fish never show any discomfort, so i don't feel it hurts the inhabitants. I can't seem to get enough in the water if i shut it at night. Even my homemade reactor can't seem to get enough dispersed, went back to the Dennerle Cyclo Turbo wich seems to perform better. I really don't want to run a second system just to be able to shut of in the night.
Ultimately it could come to me disassembling a large part of my bio filter in order to try to save some extra CO2, but it's not something  i would do easily. Right now i only run it slowly.
Super diffusors for 400 gallon tanks anyone?


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## foxfish

The easy way would be via a needle wheel return pump or a UP placed in front of your present return pump.
A 20'' version of my reactor would probably work too.
I believe that Tom actually pumps his C02 directly into his return pump & no longer uses a needle wheel, I used to pump straight into the pump too but found the bubbles a bit to big for my liking. I have tried needle wheels many times & although they work I prefer the reactor route now.

For many years I use a two litre bottle attached to the inlet of my Ehime 1060 sump pump with a diffuser fitted inside the bottle. This worked on a 5x2x2 tank but I think you would need two large return pumps on your tank!

However if you tank seems to be working with 24 7 then I guess that is fine!


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## Edvet

Sorry i don't know the concept of a needle punp, or what you meant with UP. I use a pondpump to get water from my last sump into the tank, it's rated for 2500lit at my hight but i use a valve to regulate it. I could put a co2 hose at the waterintake, not sure that would work better.
I did google needlepump, but never heard of one or seen one here in the Netherlands.


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## ian_m

Edvet said:


> I did google needlepump, but never heard of one or seen one here in the Netherlands.


Search for "eheim needle wheel pump". Search images to see when the impeller looks like as well.


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## Edvet

Are they all DIY?


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## foxfish

No not at all, needle wheel pumps are primarily designed to work protein skimmers on reef tanks but as you have probably gathered it is quite easy to modify a pump impeller, there are plenty models available. As Ian points out Eheim make them too...
however I would suggest you simply try feed the C02 directly into the pump first as some pumps will give good results straight out the box.
UP is a brand name for a ceramic diffuser, they offer inline models but they would not be suitable to use as the pipe fittings are only 16mm.
UP do make a simple ceramic diffuser though that could be placed in front of your pump, this would produce a very fine mist in your tank, the mist is said to be the most effective way for plants to absorb the gas.
The main down side of the UP diffusers is the high working pressure required, you need around 3 -3.5 bar from you regulator to get them really fizzing!


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## ian_m

foxfish said:


> UP is a brand name for a ceramic diffuser, they offer inline models but they would not be suitable to use as the pipe fittings are only 16mm.


Also do 8/12, 12/16 as well as 16/22.


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## foxfish

Yeah but the 16-22mm means the internal pipe size is 16mm so it will only flow a limited amount of water through that size bore & on a 400g tank you going to need much bigger bore pipe.


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## Edvet

I am using 32mm pvp pipe.


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## ian_m

Split the 32mm pipe (800mm2) into say 25mm loop (490mm2) and 16mm loop (200mm2) and put the 16/22 diffuser on the 16mm loop. Pipe cross sectional areas are similar, so should affect flow too greatly.


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## foxfish

Yeah but much easier to put one in front of the sump pump?
Or even better just buy the UP diffuser?


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## Edvet

I see growth . Started on larger doses ferts and trace elements. Al plants seem to be doing wel, only Tonina and its Manaus cousin arent. The Mayacca is getting some whitish tops, which usually means shortage in iron, so i've given some extra trace elements to see if i can get them greener. Only some small spots of blue algae, but i probably have to clean between the plants a bit better. I've changed the direction and duration of the circulation pumps. So now all the plants are "moving in the breeze". although some big ones are "whipping in the storm" .
I finally made up my mind about how the final scape will be, now it's just waiting for the plants to get ready.

I've tried piping the CO2 in the main pump: lots of noise , so i will stay with my Dennerle setup for now.


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## Edvet

Tonina behind Staurogyne




Eichornia azurea "spooning"




Mayacca getting whitish tops.


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## Kogre

Stunning progress! Definitely one to watch.

What's your end game on this? Are you looking to stock discus in there again?


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## Edvet

Nah not discus,i want to see if i can go for an biotope setting, just not sure yet which, either Peru (rio Uyacalli tributairy), Venezuela ( Orinoco tributairy) or Matto grosso/Pantanal. Been scouring the internet for 6 months trying to make up my mind. I need a focalpoint fish (aka a fish i find interesting and beautifull), suiting plants, good descriptions of fish in that same habitat and preferably all in a clear water environment, It's harder to find then it sounds.
I would love altums again, but they can't be accompanied by small characins which i wan't too. Same with other cichlids, they have to be small enough. Most interesting fish come from habitats mostly without plants, but there are a few exceptions. I don't want a NA scaped tank, i want more biotope acurate, although i do know it's hard to find submerged plants sometimes.


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## Kogre

When I start my tank, I may approach you for advice. 

Whatever happened to your discus?


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## Edvet

They died in the course of a few years


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## Kogre

What kind of Dennerle diffuser are you running?


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## Edvet

Zugabe-Geräte
the cyclo turbo, have a small pump inside the tank attatched to it (i attached a filtersponge to it, to help clear the water.
But i bought an Eheim 3000 pump to make an diy diffusor, i cant get enough CO2 in the water at the moment.


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## Edvet

Update: pointed one pump downwards to the middle of the tank, that made the Tonina happy, just have to cut and replant them to loose the unsightly bits. The  Mayacca isn't thriving in the back, still some whitish points, and gathering some green filamentous algea, which are on on all fineleaved plants btw. Redirecting the flow, and using my own homemade CO2 diffusor seems to stop the BGA, so that is good. CO2 is at 30ml/min (inverted syringe method) and i put some lid-like structures on parts of the sump. The Myriophyllum is almost lost, no growth and some green filamentous algea (like Cladophora). You can see little tufts if these algae on the foreground too, where they are attached to a few small remnants  of tenellus. There are no algea of this kind on the other plants, only on those "in trouble". Wil still have to try some other plants like Potamogeton gayi and Hydrocleis. I will take out the stones from the right back cornet this weekend to see wether there is a lot of mulm under them.


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## Edvet

Ordered
2 x Echinodorus latifolius
2 x Hyptis lorentziana
2 x Echinodorus magdalenensis
3 x Staurogyne repens 
2 x Myriophyllum propinquum 
2 x Heteranthera zosterfolia
4 x Tonina fluviatilis 
1 x Echinodorus radicans/cordifolius
today. Wil take out the Syngonanthus en the Mayacca (might try to replant a bit) cause i can't get those going (lots off algae on those). Will trim the huge Eichornia and put those in the back. Magdalensis an Staurogyne wil go in the cube. Tonina are doing wel now just need to be cut and replanted (i will add to that group).


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## Edvet

Weekly update: rearanged a lot of plants and removed the Mayacca and what remained of the Syngonanthus.
 Removed the pile of stones, but used a few tu make a higher "bank"where i put the (wat will be) largest Echinodorus (right side behind). Split the Staurogyne in smaller pieces, but double the number.
Added some more Tonina, there is quite a color difference between the old and the new, but i guess those are grown emerged. Myrophillium is an experiment, i usually dont have succes with small leafed plants. The Hyptis looks promising.


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## Edvet

Weekly update: hacked the Eichornia diversifolia into shape, removed the small H. tenellus (only managed to let algra grow on it), split some Staurogyne. And i see growth (added some ,still hard to see, Najas Roraima and a small Najas Guadeloupe)


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## Edvet

Handheld movie with obligatory cooking sounds in the background
Highlighting some of the plants, stil learning and seeing what works for the final "scape".
The eichornia diversifolia is growing very fast again, perhaps to fast. In a tank this big i don't wat to prune and replant every week, and the plant that need
the most attention have to be in easy reach. I will expand the staurogyne territory this weekend, that has the best change to become the large carpet in the middle.
The heteranthera zosterifolia is growing (too) fast too, so it will probably not stay where it is now. And i am looking to add some more reds.
"Work in progress"!


lol.having youtube "stabilize" the movie makes the tekst dance


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## Edvet

Update:




Moved the Heterantha zosterifolia all the way to the side (right side , just at the edge of the picture) it was getting huge fast,
Trimmed some tips of the Staurogyne and expanded the footprint with them.
Trimmed back the Eichornia diversifolia, still growing very fast, don't realy know where it will go eventually, (demands a lot of attention due to het fast growth, maybe to much)
Echinodorus horemanni is growing steadily, old leaves get some BBA. I am still struggeling to get enough CO2 in the collumn i guess.
Echinodorus latifolius is starting to send out runners, I may put them in place of the Tonina, there behind them already.
It's hard to find the right plants. Either they are to difficult for this set up (to little growth) or they try to overtake the tank. Leaning towards using Echinodorus spp more and more, growth rate is reasonable and the always seem to do well in this tank.
Probably i am going to see if i can lessen lightintensity a bit, thereby decreasing the amount of CO2 needed, and slowing down growth a bit on the "weeds". That might hurt the Tonina, but i am having problems with those anyway. I guess they need even higher lighting and CO2. Not sure what that means for the BBA.


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## Bufo Bill

The tank looks lovely in that last picture, well done!
All the best from Bill.


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## Edvet

Some added pictures:




Looking towards right hind side.




Close up on Staurogyne " Porto Velho"




Close up of Najas guadeloupensis




Najas Roraima




Echinodorus latofolius.


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## Edvet

Been replanting again, took out the Tonina, i think i am finding the right spot for the plants more and more.
.


Carpets ( both the Echinodorus and the Staurogyne) have to get bigger obviously, gonna let the zosterifolia get tall again, just at the front left corner now.

Wider shot:


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## Edvet

In an attempt to combat BBA (on the old laves) I raised the lights a bit, thus decreasing the ammount of CO2 consumed and by that keeping the levels a bit higher and more consistent. Added 5 ancistrus claro, they eat BBA it seems.




I don't want them to go to big, else they make a mess of the tank. These stay quite small (7-8 cm). I will have to take out the old algaegrown leaves, will do that next weekend probably.
Ooh and the tank was a bit cold, so i added some heaters (was only 23 Celcius, want it to be app 25 usualy)

Added a video ( handheld and obligatory cooking sounds!)( Ps i forgot to pick up the pair of tweezers i dropped, did pick it up afterwards )


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## Edvet

Fiddled with some of the uruguayensis, removed some old leaves and replanted two of the large variety towards the back. I only want the smaller variety in front but they are not easy to distinguish.
Pics wil follow later


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## James D

Looks really good... I particularly like the tallest plant (middle left). It must be nice having a big tank with a variety of fish to watch, I sometimes forget the fish are the reason I got into aquariums, I mostly seem to think about algae these days!


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## sanj

Love the E. uruguayensis, it is my favourate echinodorus.


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## Edvet

James D said:


> I particularly like the tallest plant (middle left


Small red leaves, bushy plant: is the Persicaria "Sao Paulo" (there is some confusion wether that is the correct one), it's getting a huge bush, just some BBA on old leaves so i might need to tidy it up, just waiting what effect the changes in lght will have before i attack it
Longer stem plant, with red leaved tips": Hyptis lorentziana. At the moment it is breaching the waterlevel, so it is 70 cm high already.ganna let it grow and see what happens



James D said:


> It must be nice having a big tank with a variety of fish to watch, I sometimes forget the fish are the reason I got into aquariums, I mostly seem to think about algae these days!


 
Tha'ts kinda my poblem with the "scaped" tanks. They seem to be more about plants then fish, fish seem to be added as an afterthought. I always think about a fish species or some biotope first, then i start to work from there. But that''s just my personal take on things. Seeing i have always been fascinated by South american tropical species, wheter it where my snakes, my orchids or my tanks, it always revolved around the natural biotopes. Hard thing is that it's not easy to Always recreate it in a pleasant way. Now if someone would scape a tank with biotope correct plants and fish, trying to recreate( or even stylize) a piece of nature, wether it is South America or Asia or anywhere, i am always atracted to that.


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## Edvet

sanj said:


> Love the E. uruguayensis, it is my favourate echinodorus.


 Yeah mine too. There have been a lot of namechanging in the Echinodorus family lately. I have very tall ones ( over 75 cm high leaves) which i used to think where "horemanni"
and smalle ones (app 30-40 cm leaflength, more reddish tips when emerging, and somewhat more pronounced veins on the leaves) wich i used to think where "uruguayensis".
Nowadays they are all varieties of uruguayensis i believe. And then there are the hybrids and most LFS have the wrong or no names on their swords.

Old pic when tank had mostly uruguayensis: (made with tablet  )


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## Edvet

Update: added some reds (alternanthera cardinalis and rosaefolia) and two new swords (E. harbich and E.x Regine Hildebrandt) to try out.
Enlarged footprint of Staurogyne.




Stil BBA rearing it's head, trying to get more CO2 in.


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## Edvet

New inhabitants (2


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## Edvet

Large pic :


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## Ady34

Looking really nice now Edvet.
Bet it is challenging to get enough co2 in!


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## Edvet

Yeah i tried 2 huge DIY reactors but can't get therm to work realy well. I think it might have to do with size/flow relationsship, so i will probably shorten one to see if it works better.
(last one i made was a big one with a homemade venturi part (30 mm out the tank, 22 mm venturi , 50 mm diffusorpipe (app 100 cm long)) but there is some false air or so).


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## Edvet

Echinodorus x" Regine Hildebrandt" putting out some nice red leaves:





Moved most of the large uruguayensis from right front to left hind corner, mostly have the smaller version  in front now. (wether they are horemanni or the uruguayensis???)





These go to max 30--35 cm, have redish veins on young leaves, and readily produce new flowering stems, while the larges ones (seen in the back) grow to 75 cm's and rarely make flower spikes. Only when i realy made them think they where going to die (huge neglect) they produced stalks. I started with two of these. They grow on a rhizome. The biggest one had a wood/cork like rhizome of app 15 cm. They can grow new plants on these too.


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## Edvet

Update: Trying to get growth as good as i can. Dreaded BBA rearing it's head. Trying to clean old leaves as much as possible, try to get as much CO2 in there as possible. (wil have to try to close sump better, but the way it's set up it wont be very efficient). The plants in the back middle wil probably go. The Persicaria is full of BBA and the Hyptis old leaves are ugly and have BBA too. have to figure out a replacement for those.
Back left corner has the same echinodorus as are in the back right, if they get same height, it will look better. The staurogyne and the echinodorus carpet are starting to merge, sadly there is some BBA on the staurogyne too, can probably weed that out mostly. The zosterifolia and the diversifolia need a trim to get in better shape, will do that next weekend. Growth of the red Alternanthera's is very slow, they probably need more light, not sure if i can manage that for them. Can be i need other reds.
(link to large size file:http://m5.i.pbase.com/o9/89/200689/1/153824865.7Eg799IH.DSC_4244copy_filtered.jpg)

Question: if i cant get more CO2 in would raising the lights improve the BBA situation, or is the only solution faster growth and more pruning?. I know i could go to low CO2 to improve BBA too (BBA growths best at 10-15 ppm CO2 it seems), so that still is an option. Just not sure how the plants other then the echinodorus would react, wether they could cope with lower light.


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## Edvet

Large amount of BBA in Persicaria and Hyptis:





Echinodorii doing well:


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## plantbrain

The overflow and the sump are critical to keep the CO2 stable.
The quieter you can get the overflow prefilter the better. Search "Bean Animal overflow". Use something like that and modify the overflow.
Sealing up the wet/dry section of the sump is relatively easy.

I would likely use a nice wall of Vals/Uruguay swords in the rear. This will look nice and they are easy to care for and will not be BBA covered as some other plants.
You will have BBA issues for awhile otherwise and the CO2 will be an on going issue.


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## Edvet

Always thought these where uruguayensis (or horemanni):



 They are app 30 inches long and app 1 inch wide. Ah wel, goes to show Echinodorus are a mixed group.

I agree i might need to tackle the plumming, problem is i can't rearange it in a big way. I can.t move the tank or add holes. But there are things i can do.
Strangely it seemed to start (the BBA that is) when i took the lighting higher up, away from the tank, in an attempt to lessen the need for CO2. On the other hand the plant load has increased too, so that
might be a factor too.
On an upnote i am almost ready to start using the 10 kg CO2 bottle, so that should make life easier, it might even keep me for 2 months...  , and i found a LFS that can get good quality wildcaught fish.
.


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## Edvet

Update: stil combating BBA. Looks i have to pull complete staurogyne lawn and prune affected leaves. In the proces of changing drainage to minimize CO2 loss.
Without CO2 pH is app 7, with CO2 i can get to app 6.4 at lights out, raises to 6.6-6.7 at the end of lighting period (61/2 hours), CO2 is still on for 24 hours.

Link to Original size:http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3708/11758539885_be5b74c1c3_o.jpg


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## Edvet

Took out the lightunit with the 2 150W  halides this weekend,. Basicaly tank is lighted with 2x 80W HO T5's now with 2 TMS 1500 tiles and one mercury vapor 125w. Managed to get an new regulator with a solenoid and changed my plumbing so i loose less CO2 in the sump. I can get the Ph down to app 6.2 now at the start of the lights.
I don't want to put in SAE's (1) wrong origin and 2) hard to catch to take them out) so i wil have to trim all affected leaves. Just want to make sure i don't see any new BBA before i start that. I will have to lift all the staurogyne and replace it with cuttings........that will take some time........


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## Alastair

Despite your struggling with bba the tank looks really nice edvet. I didnt actually notice its full size until I looked at how small those crypts are. HUGE


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## Edvet

Hehe wel it's larger then yours
Actualy there are 2 crypts in there, but you cant see them in the pic, they're hidden.(came with some plants from Germany as a piece of root with two tiny leaves, i decided to plant it and C. wendtii emerged; they will need to move out seeing there are only south american plants in this tank).
So no crypts are visible. The centergroup is Staurogyne Porto Velho, with some Echinodorus latifolius coming in from behind, imediately on their right is Najas Guadeloupe, and right of those is Najas Roraima. Far right is Heteranthera zosterifolia 75 cm high.
Stil seeing if i can get some nice wood, just don't think having some sent from USA is viable.
Been experimenting with backgrounds ( wel actualy cut opened bin bags) to see what i like, problem is i can't move the tank, so i can drop in something behind it, but can't do much else.I have looked around for something to put in the tank, but i cant find something i like'(like for instance those "slim" Back to Nature panels)


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## Alastair

Edvet said:


> Hehe wel it's larger then yours
> Actualy there are 2 crypts in there, but you cant see them in the pic, they're hidden.(came with some plants from Germany as a piece of root with two tiny leaves, i decided to plant it and C. wendtii emerged; they will need to move out seeing there are only south american plants in this tank).
> So no crypts are visible. The centergroup is Staurogyne Porto Velho, with some Echinodorus latifolius coming in from behind, imediately on their right is Najas Guadeloupe, and right of those is Najas Roraima. Far right is Heteranthera zosterifolia 75 cm high.
> Stil seeing if i can get some nice wood, just don't think having some sent from USA is viable.
> Been experimenting with backgrounds ( wel actualy cut opened bin bags) to see what i like, problem is i can't move the tank, so i can drop in something behind it, but can't do much else.I have looked around for something to put in the tank, but i cant find something i like'(like for instance those "slim" Back to Nature panels)



Larger than mine.......for now  2 years time we will see then. 

You could try black tissue paper at the back that looks nice.


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## aliclarke86

Or a blind but I guess you would need to settle on a colour for that

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## Edvet

I seem to be wining (not whining) the war on BBA, I've raised my lights (added back the 150W halides, but much higher above tank) and have a regulator with a solenoid now, so when lights are on i have a big stream of CO2 going through the bubblecounter. Lights are on 61/2 hour, Co2 starts app 2 hours before, on till 30 mins before lights out.
I don't think i see BBA on new leaves. Sooooo....... Now i need to remove and clean the whole "frontlawn"............dairing project.


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## aliclarke86

Have a nice swim mate 

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## Phil Edwards

That's some good progress Ed!  It's really cool to see those big plants in a tank big enough for them to grow and grow and grow.


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## Edvet

Basically i found out that i don't like to prune and prune and prune to keep everything tidy. Part of the fun of a big tank is having the plants grow to their max and not have to prune them. Just BBA throws a spanner in the works.
Only thing i am wondering about "the lawn" is: do i keep the Staurogyne or use only the Echinodorus latifolius. it makes  a lot of runners.


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## Phil Edwards

I've been considering the same thing with my big tank lately.  One of the big aquatic plant nurseries here in the US has recently started using coconut fiber mats with a coated metal mesh over it to grow large sheets of things like HC, Glosso, mosses, and ferns.  The same concept should work well for any plant that puts out runners.  Doing something similar would allow you to make a large shaped surface for your foreground species that can be taken out of the tank for trimming/mowing and then dropped back in.  It seems to me to be a convenient way to maintain a well shaped and groomed mass of short plants in a large and/or tall tank without having to spend hours with your arms in the tank uprooting and replanting.

Do you want something up front that will make a thick carpet or would a large group of something like Anubias barteri, Nymphaea sp., or Echinodorus parviflorus be suitable?  I've made nice low-growing masses of Nymphaea by replanting daughter plants and tubers and just trimming the leaves if they started growing too high.


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## Edvet

I've been looking for Nymphaea rudgeana or N. glandulifera, you got some?
Up til now Staurogyne works, get's a bit to thick maybe, the latifolius makes runners everywhere. I guess i will use the staurogyne for now combined with the echinodorus.


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## Phil Edwards

Unfortunately I don't have any of those species.   You've probably got better access to things like that in Europe than we do here in the States.  Best of luck taking care of the BBA on the Staurogyne.  I've been having issues with a different alga on the stuff I'm starting in a new tank.  It's driving me crazy!    Sometimes it's difficult to be patient and let things go while then plants establish.


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## Edvet

Bit the bullit and did the lawn. Started at app 09.00 and was finished at app 16.00. Did clean the filter too. So a lot less plantmass and a lot less dirt, should help in the battle with BBA.

09.00




09.30 Total lawn removed;
















Also trimmed, cleaned and or moved some small plants.

Still a lot to do with the larger backgroundplants, but need to be "sure' i am on the winning hand with the BBA.


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## Lindy

Should you not cut out everything with bba? As long as it is in the tank it is sending out spores.


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## Martin in Holland

Maybe we should make BBA a new fashion in tanks, would be much easier. The trendy BBA tanks of 2014


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## Edvet

The spores aren't the problem, getting them not to grow is the key, and that is CO2 related.. And if that is corrected, then you trim the infested leaves.


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## Phil Edwards

This may be a strange question, but how often do you clean your filter?


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## Edvet

Crap had an answer, didnt post it. Sorry Phil.
Basically never. It was designed for a discus tank, so few plants, a lot of fishload. It is big in dimensions (app 300 lit volume in total of wich i could fill app 225 lit with filtering material).
When i went planted i removed most of the filtermaterial. A few weeks ago i changed the plumming so i lost a smaller mount of CO2 through the filter. As of now there is app 10 liter Siporax and a few pieces of filterfoam. I only clean that when the foam gets more or less clogged. Usualy that is every 4/6 months.


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## Edvet

Cleaned up infested plants a bit more. Still some way to go. Even hung up all the lamps a bit higher again, with lesser plantmass that should lower CO2 demand a bit more. I dont think there is new BBA. Fingers crossed. I do think i will get some more Echinodorus plants, they seem to fit me and this tank best, and the maintenace is just taking of old leaves, which is easiest in this size.


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## Edvet




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## Phil Edwards

Ed,

I like the look! A few of the more technically minded hobbyists over here in the US have been discussing the affects of dissolved organic matter and its relationship with algae, specifically BBA. After reading journal articles on DOC/TOC and algal proliferation, as well as considering the effects and mechanisms of filtration in an aquarium, I'm becoming convinced that a dirty filter is a major contributor to algae, especially BBA and Cladophora. It's been my experience that if I let the filter (canister or sump/wet-dry) media get nasty and clogged then algae start to proliferate. If I keep it clean I don't have nearly the issues with the major nuisance species like BBA. Lord knows I know a big filter is a pain to clean, but perhaps that would help you combat BBA in your system?


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## Edvet

Thanks Phil. I made some changes in the filter and started doing some extra waterchanges in order to keep the system a bit cleaner.
I want to make some changes in the scape, but i need to get some nice pieces of wood. And i am looking for some extra swords. Getting there slowly.


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## Phil Edwards

Best of luck sir!  I'm looking forward to seeing how your changes affect the system; for the better, I hope.


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## Edvet

Seeing everybody wants to see wood in a tank, i put back an old piece yesterday.


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## Phil Edwards

Nice wood.  Now cover it in plants.   How's the BBA these days?


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## Edvet

I weeded most of it out, doesn't seem te be growing back. I think i only see it on the leaves which had it, but it seems to be growing once it's there.
Now about covering the wood: seeing i am trying to limit myself to South American plants, i think only mosses would fit. Bolbitis and Anubias are african, Microsorum spp are asian.
Only did some mossballs (cladophora i guess), but i still need to find something suitable.


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## Edvet

crapload of mosses in South america:http://www.arlis.org/docs/vol1/A/319602624.pdf
Now to find one,..........

Vesicularia vesicularis seems to be the only one in Peru


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## Edvet

BBA seems to be less, I raised my lights and try to get as much CO2 in as i can. But i feel it is still not enough, i drop 1 pH point approximately but my water is quite soft.
And i am getting some BGA spots, even after cleaning the filter and the tank. I am using ferts 3 times a week(usually 5 tbs KNO3 2 tbs K2SO4 2 tbs MgSO4) and micro's 2 times a week. CO2 is on 21/2 hours before lights on till hour before lights out. It gets "pumped"into the inlet of an Eheim classic, the water from the eheim goes directly to the inlet of my large sump pump and gets pumped into a large standing pvc pipe with holes in the bottom side, so 3 places where the CO2 gets chopped up or can "dissolve"in moving water. Tiny tiny bubbles come out of the standing pipe. The pipe is in a sectioned off small triangular corner of the tank it overflows at the top with a drop of app 0.5 cm. Still i feel i can't get enough CO2 in the tank. I will try to get a large diffusor functioning (tried two, bur couldn't get them to my liking) working with an added CO2 set and have two CO2 sets working on the tank.

As an added measure i will black out the tank 3 days and hook up the gardenhose 2 hours every night, this way i do a biig waterchange.


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## Phil Edwards

*Ed*,

How are you using the Eheim filter?  Is it for CO2 only or is it part of your total filtration system?  If it's for CO2 only or you'd be ok with losing some flow, you may consider modifying the impeller to be a needle wheel type or mesh mod type.  They're considered by many in the US to be the current best method for breaking up CO2 into a fine mist for distribution in a large aquarium. 

A Cerges "reactor" (counter-current dwell time dissolver) may help you a lot as well.  Google  I had something similar on the old 225 back in '11 and am considering using a pair of filter chambers in series hooked up to a mesh modded pump on the 300.  As long as you've got the space hooking one or two chambers up to your Eheim should go a long way toward dissolving the CO2.

Isn't CO2 a pain in the butt to get right?  Of all the parameters we check, CO2 is by far the hardest one for me to get right.  It doesn't help that I hate to see less than 100% dissolution and bubbles floating up to the surface…

<edit> New thought.  The BGA may be a symptom of insufficient flow in that area.  Does that seem plausible?


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## Edvet

The eheim used for CO2 is standing in the last part of the sump and is used for CO2 purposes only. After the blackout i will fill it with cut up filtersponge pieces. The large diffusor i am trying to rig (and that will be a counter current device) will be driven by a 3000 liter eheim pump and is 4 cm clear pvc pipe  app 1 meter long. I wil use the CO2 on a low bubblecount to see if it takes up everything first, since it an added system and see if i can get deeper pH drops. I have changed the plumbing towards the sump, but i still think i loose CO2 there, problem is i can't change a lot i only have 12 cm of space to work in and i cant move the tank (2000 kg i guess), so i have to add more.

Insufficient flow is hard to believe, however if i get the diffusor working i will probably set it up in a way that it takes in water at one side of the tank while the output is on the other side.


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## Vazkez

Edvet said:


> just to give a size indication (old picture fro a few years ago)



OMG incredible  I lost my breath looking on this picture


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## Edvet

So blackout finished saturday. BGA seems to be gone for now, Added 5 tablespoons NO4, 2 PO4 and 2 Mg.
Added some new fish too Apart from adding to the corydoras elegans group (realy like those) 4 new species:

Characidium fasciatum (6x)


 

Pseudanos trimaculatus (6x)


 

Hypoptoma gulare (4x)


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## Edvet

Also some Farlowella platorynchus (2x) but havent got a pic yet.


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## Alastair

Beautiful additions ed


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## Lindy

Some beautiful looking fish. Particularly like fish in pics 2+3

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## Edvet

Thanks, luckily i found an LFS which specializes in imports, so i can get rarer species.


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## Phil Edwards

Looking great Ed.  I hope the blackout helped push the tank over into the balanced side of the equation.


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## Edvet

Farlowella (sorry for the dirty glass)


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## Edvet

Nice and  busy, just like i like it.
Need to remove last BBA ( i've seen the trimaculatus picking at it, as i hoped) and then let things grow a bit more.


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## aliclarke86

Looks great! Although I was really enjoying it without the wood but I guess you can't please everyone else with your slice of nature. It is after all "your" slice 

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## Edvet

Still have hopes to make it more natural to look at, lesser plantspecies, a bit quieter.


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## EnderUK

They (Hypoptoma gulare) look like giant otos, I want some. Shame I couldn't afford the water bill on that beast of a tank.


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## Edvet

aliclarke86 said:


> I was really enjoying it without the wood


 The fish realy like the wood, they're hiding and darting under and through it.


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## Lindy

I like the wood and it looks great with more fish. They have lots and lots of swimming space!


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## Edvet

Handheld and obligatory cooking sounds


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## Lindy

I love that wood. It looks a bit like an alien structure


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## LondonDragon

Awesome, tank is looking great  once the plants fill in a little more it will look even better


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## Bufo Bill

Blown away by this Ed, it's superb. Visually not keen on the wood but if the fish like it as you say then I would keep it in.


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## Edvet

Gonna add Lilaeopsis brasiliensis tomorrow to see how that will work. The staurogyne takes to much maintenance to stay good looking.
Still want one or two big echinodori-i(/-us). And i want to try an Hydrocleis, hard to get one.
I don't see any new BBA, even see it getting less on some of the spots i hadn't removed it yet, so i guess something is eating it. Can't see any BGA either.
I reduced lights by pulling them up, and steadied the CO2, i have about 2 bps on 24/7 (through a large diy diffusor) and the large CO2 tank kicks in 3 hours before lights on(goes through an eheim, then through the sump-pump) (uncountable bps ,10--15 or so)
This produces app 1 point pH drop (compared to when there is no CO2), in reality at dark the pH goes "up" to app 6.4, and down to 6.0 at lights on.  there is a lot of surface agitation and still a sump, never any signs of gassing the fish.


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## Edvet

Feeding frenzy!


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## Phil Edwards

Did I see blood in the water there near the end?  How're your fingers doing?


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet, Stunning


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## Edvet

Lileaopsis in place:


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## faizal

Did you get hurt there in that video or was it beef heart ?


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## Edvet

Black, white and red frozen mosquitolarvea. I never understood why people feed beef.


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## faizal

Wow,...how did you get one of those? Do they sell them at LFSes?


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## Edvet

faizal said:


> one of those


 which?


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## faizal

black, white & red frozen mosquito larvae,...


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## Edvet

yeah LFS here in the Nehterlands sell them all, sometimes even live ones. Red mosquito larvae are called bloodworms in the rest of the world i think.
http://www.frozenfishfood.nl/pageseng/assortiment_en.html
Red ones are easiest to feed, black ones have the best nutritional value, white ones float so are good for topdwellers. Sometimes i give cyclops or bosmiden, it's small food, so usually if i have small fish. Daphnia and artemia i sometimes give just to give something different.
In general i prefer 500 gram packaging over the blisters. Blisters have more damaged foodpieces so give more mess in the water. When i had discus and larger cichlids i gave mysis a lot. The exoskeletons are good for the intestines. All these foods are available frozen. (white, red, daphnia and tubifex often alive too)


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## frothhelmet

Great movement in the tank. Beautiful!


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## Edvet

Quick and dirty update:
[DOUBLEPOST=1396297688][/DOUBLEPOST]And a new species: Pyrhulina cf brevis:



Now i only need a suitable dwarfcichlid and i am good.


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## Alastair

Edvet said:


> Quick and dirty update:
> [DOUBLEPOST=1396297688][/DOUBLEPOST]And a new species: Pyrhulina cf brevis:
> 
> 
> 
> Now i only need a suitable dwarfcichlid and i am good.



Love the piece of wood on the right. A nice microsorum narrow would look stunning placed where the wood arches. It would create a nice sense of depth from the background plants. 

Lovely ed.


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## Alastair

Bit like this.... quick phone edit


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## Edvet

Aye, but you know me: South american only......


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## Alastair

Edvet said:


> Aye, but you know me: South american only......



Nothing wrong with a little tweaking here and there


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## ourmanflint

Lovely little fish Ed, never come across one of those before, a real gem!


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> Now i only need a suitable dwarfcichlid and i am good.


 What are you going to get?

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet

Strangely enough i never had much succes with apisto's in that tank, Always thought it might be to deep.
Was thinking about some Laetacara thayeri, though according to the LFS owner they are a royal pain in the b*tt, very bulying. I've had several dicrossus spp in there (macualatus and filamentosus).


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## Edvet

Cleaning crew:
DSC_5112_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


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## Edvet

Some shots from tonight:
DSC_5186_copy by Edvet, on Flickr
DSC_5179_copy by Edvet, on Flickr
DSC_5166_copy by Edvet, on Flickr
DSC_5159_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


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## Edvet

in situ:
DSC_5113_copysmall by Edvet, on Flickr


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## Edvet

Stumbled on these:

 (Crenuchus spilurus)
Couldn't resist. Haven't made my own pics yet, they are hiding in between the large echinodorus.
And i ordered 6 Biotodoma cupido, these will be the last, realy...................i promise.........realy


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## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet Wow


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## parotet

Awesome!!!


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## Edvet

BBA started comming back, so i upped the CO2 now (pH now down to 5.5-5.6, coming down from 6.6-6.7) and lowered the lights, going for fast plant growth so i can remove more affected leaves.
The large otocinclus like Hypoptoma gulare are damaging my Echinodorus leaves, so i need lots of new leaves for that too. Have been feeding all kind of veggies, but they seem to ignore them.
BBA is on tthe smaller foreground plants too, I didn't even get the Lileaopsis going. I have some new one on the way.

Warts:
url=https://flic.kr/p/nnAUdA]


[/url]BBA on Lileaopsis by Edvet, on Flickr

damaged Echinodorus leaves, probably Hypoptoma doing this. by BBA on wood by Edvet, on Flickrs://www.flickr.com/people/101410164@N02/]Edvet[/url], on Flickr


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## Tim Harrison

Nice images!


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## Edvet

Troi said:


> Nice images!


 Thx, but i wish the content of these last pics was different


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## James D

Wow, bit of a festival of algae there ED! In your post above you said you're lowering the lights, do you mean lowering them towards the tank?

By the way, the FTS on the previous page looks amazing, I'm very jealous of all your fish.


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## sciencefiction

The BBA on the powerhead looks cool. It looks like velvet 

It's a tough job to battle BBA in such a huge tank.  I can't even hazard a very useful guess but I'll follow with interest.

I've got just one suggestion, have you tried oxygenating the tank heavily at night, including near the substrate via some sort of air pumps to help with decomposition of organics and nitrification and then switch then off in the morning before the co2 comes on obviously. BBA is always a sucker for organics and in a big tank you can't really remove them easily unless you spend your day at it at cleaning up. So a bit faster microbial activity may speed up the process, especially that the plants now are half functioning.
If that doesn't help and I am not sure what amount of filtration you are using, but increasing it may help.


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## Yo-han

Edvet said:


> Strangely enough i never had much succes with apisto's in that tank, Always thought it might be to deep.
> Was thinking about some Laetacara thayeri, though according to the LFS owner they are a royal pain in the b*tt, very bulying. I've had several dicrossus spp in there (macualatus and filamentosus).



Too bad! I was thinking about them too...

And about the BBA, extra oxygen at night makes a huge difference for me too!


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## Edvet

sciencefiction said:


> have you tried oxygenating the tank heavily at night


Wel the way the water goes to the sump means it drops into the overflow app 10 cm, i think this will aerate the water (and drive out CO2). And in the tank the two Koralia alternate for 3 mins, both "hit" the surface with their flowstream. These are on 24/7
Not sure what i could do better. I can add more filtermaterial to the tank, but i have app 3000 lit/hour going through a filtersock, that keeps the water quite clear, there is some dirt between the foregroundplants. I could get rid of that more, but i think that is beneficial for the fish, so i don't want to clean that meticulously ( and it's a lot of work).
The pick shows the drop into the overflow and the surface ripples due to the Koralia:


DSC_5267 by Edvet, on Flickr




James D said:


> I'm very jealous of all your fish


Wel it's a fish tank first and a planted tank second, so. And i found a good adres for more special fish. I have ordered the last inhabitants: Biotodoma cupido (6x) With these the tank is "full" (well at least until i find that real special fish) Luckily the volume helps me, hard to overstock this tank.
FTS isn't that bad atm, but the plants need some help.
FTS 19052014 by Edvet, on Flickr


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## sciencefiction

It's impossible to be meticulous with such a big tank, so I am certainly not suggesting you invest 8hrs a day in cleaning it up. 
But there will be organics accumulating and there will be algae.
On a smaller scale you'd want a 4000G/H filtration that holds 40G of filter media, or at least that's what I aim at in let's say a 100G tank whether planted or not/low tech or not does not matter. More filtration/less algae.
I am trying hard to figure out from your videos how the flow goes and whether enough is reaching the bottom of the substrate or not, whether the flow is circular or not etc,. If it were a small tank I'd try for a week at least installing a proper bubble storm via a bubble curtain(at night as not to affect the co2 during the day) as stupid and as trivial it sounds. Decomposition gives you extra co2 via the substrate. In a properly working substrate and flow you'll see barely any detritus gathering on top at all even with large pooping fish.
I understand the sump is losing some CO2 during the day but if you get your soil substrate decomposing that detritus that's accumulating then that will help the balance. But you need oxygen, lots of it.
You've got to get the tank working for you, not you working for the tank. Well, at least this is my goal with my tanks as I am lazy and old fashioned.
There are thousands of different opinions so this is just what I would do to combat it, more oxygen, more filtration.
By the way, what does the substrate consist of?


----------



## Edvet

In the left side back there is a huge Hygrophylla. I like the size but it needs pruning now. Ideally i would like a plant there that grows app 60 cm and then stops. If the Hydrocleys takes off i could make a large group of those there
I have been contemplating taking all plants out for a major cleanup, especially the Echinodorus group right backside, but i wanna see if more light and more CO2 will give more healthy leaves first, then i can get away with just removing bad leaves (still is a large job of me standing in the tank , probably in swimpants, with all the lights over the tank removed) Taking them all out might be faster.

Btw Pyrrhulina males where showing off between themselves (i love these fish)
Pyrhullina cf brevis by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## sciencefiction

Oh, gosh, swim pants and all  
The hydrophilla won't stop at 60cm but if you cut the top, it will grow two shoots on that spot, so you may just try growing a certain shape. It can grow like a tree as the older the stem the ticker it gets.


----------



## Edvet

Yeah but it's in a spot which is hard to reach, so i like plants i can leave alone a long time. These have been here just as i put the wood in the tank so just over three months.
The Hydrocleys could work beautifully there, there's some flow there but not overly, and i won't mind the leaves shading the wood. Lets hope they will grow.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet, Looking good  I don't think you will have any problems growing Hydro it grows like a weed in my tanks


----------



## Edvet

As it does in mine, it's shedding old leaves all the time. I think the plants are 100 cm long atm.


----------



## Edvet

Took out most of the plants yesterday and cleaned the old leaves off. The hypoptoma's tended to damage the leaves too much so i had to take them out, also had some BGA on old leaves still. Made some layout changes too. Pics will follow. With the higher CO2 levels i see a lot of oxygen bubbles being produced, so there is some plantmetabolism going on. There is a lot of BGA on the wood, letting it be there for now, to much to clean.


----------



## BigTom

Did your _Biotodoma_ arrive Ed?


----------



## Edvet

Yup. Got 6. They are cupido's, will shoot a pic tonight of those too.[DOUBLEPOST=1402404456][/DOUBLEPOST]The Hydrocleis took, yippee. Got a few leafs reaching the surface. I have three of them just behind the large wood, they are out of the main flow.
I did rip the most of the Hygrophila tops out last week. Far less plantmass means more CO2 available for the rest. I have gradually removed most non Echinodorus plants. Either i can't work with those, or i should work harder on them,but i can't seem to get on with those in my situation.


----------



## BigTom

Nice. I'm seriously considering some _B. wavrini_ for the new tank which would be a bit of a departure from my usual minifish stocking.


----------



## Edvet

You going for a sandy bottom and riparium plants? Seeing you are talking about Morichales


----------



## BigTom

Yeah sand and leaf litter with some highly structured woodwork for dwarf cichlids of some sort, grassy 'banks' and riparians. I'm just wondering if I'll really have enough space for a group of _Biotodoma_ or if I should stick to dwarfs.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Some nice Cockatoo (Apistogramma cacatuoides) could be nice, but they are not the most easy once to keep happy.


----------



## Edvet

Biotodoma's could work. Not sure if breeding would cause problems for the rest of the tank.


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## Edvet

Some pics from tonight
FTS:
DSC_5544_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Sideview:
DSC_5572_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Biotodoma cupido and friends:
DSC_5554_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Crenuchus spilurus ( still hiding in the back of the tank, but coming out more and more):
DSC_5568_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


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## sciencefiction

You have some collection of fish....Nice!


----------



## BigTom

Very nice, the_ Biotodoma_ look great. Saw some _C. spirulus_ in a shop the other day, very striking fish in the flesh.

Are those _Hemigrammus stictus_ in the background of the Bio pic, or something else?

Edit - looks like _Prionobrama_, if I'd bothered to look before typing


----------



## Edvet

Prionobrama filigera (http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/prionobrama-filigera/), all fish are from Peru except the Colombia tetra's and the Hyphessobrycon amapaiensis.

In an answer to Darrels question and not to mess up Big Toms post:
from 2007
Img0487_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Img0488_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Nowadays i have 1 male and 2 juvenile females C. regani in the tank


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 


> In an answer to Darrel's question and not to mess up Big Toms post


They look fantastic (parents and fry), what did you feed them on, and how big was the tank? 





> Crenuchus spilurus


 Like them as well.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

They where in the 1500 liter tank. They all did it by themselves. At that time i had an RO unit running on the tank 24/7, so probably lowish 100-150 microsiemens.
Fry fed on what was in the tank till about the size of the picture. I fed  frozen mosquitolarvae/mysis/cyclops/artemia. So no special feeding of the fry. Two made it into adulthood.
The tank doesn't lend itself to catching. Lots of wood in it for fish to hide, so what gets into the tank mostly lives it's whole life in there. Rarely i can catch a wels (there are slower) or something in a clear fishtrap (read baited bottle with inverted top)


----------



## Edvet

Still around, hanging in the back usually, at lights out always at the front:
DSC_5585_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Yesterday for some reason most all the of oto's decided to hang around together in the middle of the tank, no apparent reason, no food around, just chill together. After 5 mins all went their own way........
DSC_5576_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## parotet

Oto's demonstration perhaps? 
You big tank guys are showing dangerous things to the rest of the people... During the last days I found myself watching videos in YouTube of huge tanks and then repeating to myself "you cannot have a huge tank, you cannot have a huge tanks, you cannot have a huge tank... "


----------



## Edvet

I appologize


----------



## tim

parotet said:


> Oto's demonstration perhaps?
> You big tank guys are showing dangerous things to the rest of the people... During the last days I found myself watching videos in YouTube of huge tanks and then repeating to myself "you cannot have a huge tank, you cannot have a huge tanks, you cannot have a huge tank... "


Ask your wife instead works for me  


Edvet said:


> I appologize


No need ed along with the other big tank owners you give us inspiration and aspirations  love your livestock pics, keep them coming.


----------



## Edvet

Well, it has always been a fishtank first, and a planted tank second. Still working on getting it better though.


----------



## Edvet

Some pics of tonight:
Crenuchus spilurus by Edvet, on Flickr

Char. fasciatum close by Edvet, on Flickr

N. eques under Hydocleis leaves by Edvet, on Flickr

Bleeding hart tetra by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Alastair

Great shots as always ed. 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Edvet

Thx Al. Contemplating crafting a spraybar for the tank, trying to get a better flow.


----------



## Alastair

Edvet said:


> Thx Al. Contemplating crafting a spraybar for the tank, trying to get a better flow.



Go for it mate. Will look great. I'm hooked on diy acrylic pipes now ha


----------



## Edvet

OK, Big change. Came home and CO2 had run out (unexpected). Couldn't have a full tank fast, so I decided to go "cold turkey" to low energy. I know the plants don't like that, but they'll have to adjust, mostly swords anyway.
Having struggled with BBA the last few months, maybe this can help.
I raised the lights all the way to the ceiling, unplugged the LED's. Not sure if i need to remove the T5's or the MH. Threw in the gardenhose to do a large waterchange, it's running as i type this.
400 gallon25062014 by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## aliclarke86

A well established tank may adjust OK especially with such a reduction in light (he said hopefully)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## Edvet

Will collect some floaters too and add those.


----------



## Edvet

Added Limnobium and Phyllantus yesterday, stopped the circulation pumps (added some more swords) and upped the sump pump. Will take some surface pics when the floaters have settled a bit. I decreased the amount of ferts, but will still add 3 times a week.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet, Super tank  Hope all go's well  One thing i think your wiring needs a tidy up


----------



## Edvet

Greenfinger2 said:


> One thing i think your wiring needs a tidy up


 I just made sure as much as possible is above the water,usualy it is behind panels so it doesn't show. I've added and changed it a lot so it messy, i would love a neat setup, but i don't think i have that in me


----------



## Edvet

New swords added (martii, cordifolius (i want this one out above the tank) and 2 amazonicus (?).
It feels as if there is no new (and maybe even less) BBA.
DSC_5721_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Edvet

Floaters: Phyllanthus and Limnobium, and the leaves of the Hydrocleis nymphoides.

DSC_1586_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## BigTom

Nice _Hydrocleys_. That was going to be my choice of floater if I couldn't find any_ L. sedioides_. Is this now low tech?


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet, Great news on the algae  Super plants


----------



## Edvet

BigTom said:


> Is this now low tech


 Indeed. As the CO2 ran out unexpectedly and i didn't have a 10 kg spare at that moment i decided to turn it low tech. I couldn't get the look i wanted and i kept struggling with BBA, so i changed course. I have added swords and floaters, and stopped the circulation pumps. I increased flow through the sump a bit.
The tank feels better now, no new BBA on the plants i added nor on the new growth,  BBA on the wood is getting less and less (i have seen the Pseudanos nibble at it). There is some surface scum i am working on, floaters clogg the overflow a bit, i might relocate a spraybar just under the overflow to see if that works.
Off course growth is slower but as long as it is healthier, and stays that way, this was a good decision for now. I am thinking about adding a trickle of CO2 just as a small stimulans.
I am hoping to create the jungle look i want this way, it will take just a bit longer.


----------



## James O

Edvet said:


> I am thinking about adding a trickle of CO2 just as a small stimulans.



I've been wondering about this myself.  Can/does this work?  Any increase in CO2 would be available to the plants and as long as lighting was at comparable/compatible levels growth should be increased - at least that's what my brain figures


----------



## Edvet

I used to have a glass spiral diffusor on a few bps in this tank, nowhere enough in todays understanding, but at lower light levels no problem, and helping i presume.
This is how the tank looked in 2003 and with a bit of CO2:
38068787_00005295 by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## sciencefiction

I don't see a reason why one wouldn't experiment with their tank, whether it be increasing co2 one way or another, tweaking the light amount, adding ferts, etc.. but when one says slow growth in low tech, how slow do you guys mean?
I can achieve a jungle look in a low tech in a proper setup in about 2-3 months and for me that's as fast as I want it.


----------



## Edvet




----------



## BigTom

Lovely. Is that a submersed _Eichhornia _I spy?


----------



## Edvet

Yup, i added an Eichornia azurea again, i had it before and tried to get it flowering, but the higher flow and lights closer to the surface didn't make that happen. So i try again, will try to get a few extra first, then let it reach to top, but these have to take first, app 1 week in the tank now.


----------



## James O

Now that's a video!  Time for popcorn and everything!


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet, I second the above comment A lot better than whats on the TV too  Superb


----------



## Lindy

Absolutely mesmerising!  My favorite it the torpedo shaped fish with the stripes and spot on side, stunning and very natural looking.


----------



## Edvet

Thx all, i like to sit in front of the tank and see all the fish interacting. For me it's always a fishtank first and a planted tank second.


ldcgroomer said:


> Absolutely mesmerising!  My favorite it the torpedo shaped fish with the stripes and spot on side, stunning and very natural looking.


http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pseudanos-trimaculatus/


----------



## Edvet

Quick and dirty update. I like how it is evolving, still need a lot more plants, growth is slow now ofcourse, but looks healthy.
Lowtech22082014 by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

Looks great Ed, love the scale of it! As far as plants and lushness and such, the wood on the left is screaming for some Javafern, and the left could so with some mini Javafern I think!


----------



## Edvet

Vinkenoog1977 said:


> screaming for some Javafern, and the left could so with some mini Javafern


 Sadly i limit myself to South American plants only, There is some moss on it, not yet large amounts.


----------



## sciencefiction

Looking great Edvet. Just give it time to grow. I'd add some fast growers besides the floaters. A bit of vallis(not sure where that's from) may work out as a background to give it the edge.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Looks very nice, good idea to keep it south american, gives it a natural feeling even more.


----------



## Edvet

sciencefiction said:


> A bit of vallis(not sure where that's from) may work out as a background to give it the edge.


Vallis are from Africa and Asia, so not for my tank. The Urugay swords can( and have in the past) grown to the surface.
Old crappy pics from neglect period:2012-02-04 09.25.28 by Edvet, on Flickr2011-10-18 19.31.26 by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## parotet

What about some red plants on the left background, behind the wood?
Love this tank Ed, looks like you want to dive in 

Jordi


----------



## Edvet

parotet said:


> some red plants on the left background


 I've tried alternanthera's a few times, i never seem to get them realy thriving. I've put a Hydrocotyle leucocephala there, it should grow nice big and bushy and replace the Hygrophyla.


----------



## Vinkenoog1977

Edvet said:


> Sadly i limit myself to South American plants only, There is some moss on it, not yet large amounts.



I almost added that to the post, as I thought I had heard you say that earlier. Bloody South Americans, can't even grow an aquatic fern, pfff.


----------



## TimT

Edvet said:


>


What's the name of the floater/emersed plant with the red edges or underside of the leaves?

Thanks!


----------



## BigTom

TimT said:


> What's the name of the floater/emersed plant with the red edges or underside of the leaves?
> 
> Thanks!



Phyllanthus fluitans (red rooted floater).

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk


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## Lindy

I like the openness and scale it gives. Beautiful and natural looking.


----------



## Edvet

ldcgroomer said:


> like the openness and scale it gives. Beautiful and natural looking.


 Thx, i still want to limit me to about 4 or 5 species of plants and get those big and lushy, but need to find the right ones.


----------



## Edvet

Started lowering the light again today, growth is slow, but little algae. I do let the tank get a bit "dirty" (let the detritus collect a bit) so if there is some new life it has a small chance to get some food/cover.
DSC_1615_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

Ooh and floaters going wel.....


----------



## Edvet

quick and dirty update:
DSC_5782_copy by Edvet, on Flickr

and.......one i was looking for for a longer time, here still in it's infancy:
DSC_5788_copy by Edvet, on Flickr
Nymphaea glandulifera


----------



## Kogre

Hi Edvet. Stunning tank, loving the layout and growth.

What power heads are you running? What sort of filtration?


----------



## Edvet

Powerheads are 2 Koralia's bur they are not running since i went low tech (shut down CO2, raised the lights to the ceiling and added floaters)
The tank was originally build for discus fish so there is a big sump under it.There is only some Siporax and some filterfoam in it nowadays.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 
Looks great. 

I see in your  extremely healthy "floaters" picture you have an _Eichornia_, will you be able to keep it through the winter? I've never had any survive the winter, as ambient light levels fall they always dwindle away, but my tanks are a lot lower nutrient than yours which might make a difference.

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

Where it is now it doesn't get any daylight, just the tanklighting (2x t5 80 W and 2x HQI 125 W and one 125 mercuryvapour lamp), app 90 cm above the water. I has been like that the past 2 months and it's increasing. I'll take an overview pic tonight.


----------



## Edvet

DSC_5796_copy_filtered by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Kogre

What sort of turnover does your filter\sump produce?


----------



## Edvet

If i run it full power app 3000 lit/hour. Due to having smaller fish and floaters i installed a overflow "barrier/comb". Ir oder no to have it going over the top of that i throttled it down, i guess to app 1000/1200 lit/hour. And i have a separate Eheim pump (grey tube on the right side) wich pumps the water into a filtersock, to remove some floating parts, but that basically stays "in the tank", it doesn't go through the sump. And i use a Eheim cannister filter to  keep the area in front of the overflow clear through a spraytube just under the overflow. I want to keep the left third and right third of the surface free of floaters to have light on the plants there.


----------



## roadmaster

sciencefiction said:


> I don't see a reason why one wouldn't experiment with their tank, whether it be increasing co2 one way or another, tweaking the light amount, adding ferts, etc.. but when one says slow growth in low tech, how slow do you guys mean?
> I can achieve a jungle look in a low tech in a proper setup in about 2-3 months and for me that's as fast as I want it.



I could do likewise in a small tank.
Try getting the jungle look in   larger tank  takes a fair bit of time IME
For my 300 litre it took nearly a year from scratch.
No clippings or plant's from another tank, merely sprigs of plants ordered online from aquatic plant sites.
I would imagine for 400 gal ,it would take considerably more than two or three months.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> Where it is now it doesn't get any daylight, just the tanklighting (2x t5 80 W and 2x HQI 125 W and one 125 mercuryvapour lamp), app 90 cm above the water. I has been like that the past 2 months and it's increasing.


 Brilliant, that looks really healthy, with a bit of luck it may even flower.

cheers Darrel


----------



## sciencefiction

roadmaster said:


> I could do likewise in a small tank.
> Try getting the jungle look in   larger tank  takes a fair bit of time IME
> For my 300 litre it took nearly a year from scratch.
> No clippings or plant's from another tank, merely sprigs of plants ordered online from aquatic plant sites.
> I would imagine for 400 gal ,it would take considerably more than two or three months.



Well if you start with barely any plants whatsoever then maybe. But from planting reasonably or from doing a huge trim it takes 2-3 months to get overgrown.


----------



## roadmaster

sciencefiction said:


> Well if you start with barely any plants whatsoever then maybe. But from planting reasonably or from doing a huge trim it takes 2-3 months to get overgrown.



I started with low light plant package for 125 gal X 2  for my 80 gal tank.(swords,crypt's,anubia,vals, hygro.)
I could get jungle look in small 20 gal in a couple months, but for taller tanks such as my 300 litre and low tech approach ,it took a year.
I am not complaining,gave me time to study,learn.
Hardly see large, tall, high tech or low tech it seems (very few).
Easy to make small tanks look full, and I suspect easier for CO2 distribution.


----------



## sciencefiction

My tank is not small. It's a 5f tank. But not all plants grow at the same rate. The likes of vallis, bacopa and ludwiga need almost weekly trimming/pruning because they can overtake the tank, especially vallis and bacopa for me are super weeds. My amazon swords take about 2-3 months to grow from a couple of leaves to large(pleco munched them down twice  )
For the likes of anubias and crypts you may wait a year alright. 
But you may be on a very low light if you are waiting a year for your tank to fill in/overgrow.  My non-soil tanks are that slow actually so I think it's could be lack of CO2. But my soil tanks don't have that problem. They grow relatively fast.


----------



## sciencefiction

Here for example my tank from 22nd of July(picture posted on my other thread that day). Only the left side grows in because the right doesn't get enough light tanks to the tropical plants above.




 

And this one is from a few minutes ago which is about 2 and a half months later.  The tank is a mess, you can't make out the plants right now. The bacopa, ludwiga and vallis have tangled all around the swords so you can't see them. And I have trimmed the stem plants several times and unplugged many vallis runners during this time too. And please excuse the running cables. My filter failed a while ago and I had to run replacement ones and haven't got around at removing them since.


----------



## sciencefiction

And a close picture below.  I am not particularly proud of it, looks like spaghetti meat balls but just to show what I am saying. I can't see out the back what's growing in there but there are a few more echnodoruses besides the front amazon swords.
And sorry Edvert. Last post.


----------



## Edvet

1400@20-11-14 by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Martin in Holland

Nice picture...


----------



## Edvet

Quick and dirty update:
DSC_1641_filtered by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Kogre

Absolutely stunning. 

Did you use suction cups on the piece of wood on the right?


----------



## GTL_UK

Great tank !


----------



## Edvet

Thx. The right piece is tied to some pipework with a Tie-wrap.


----------



## drodgers

Sorry if i missed this in a post .. Are you using soil at all and what do you do for fertlizer.
The reason I ask is once my 125 is grown in im thinking about backing off on the high tech and going low ,Ive already went to med low light with co2 and my plants are loving it.


----------



## Edvet

No soil. this same substrate has been in place for 15 years or so. Originally i put some laterite and clay under it, and it  has a heating cable.
Nowadays i use a form of EI. I dose 3 teaspoons on KNO3, 1 teaspoon of Mg and 1 teaspoon of PO4 3 times a week, and micro's 2 times a week. I feed the fish once a day and they usually get frozen white, red and black mosquito larvae, i guess app 100 gram/day.
When i went low energy, I increased the distance between the lights and the surface from a few inch to app 3 feet, and added floaters, I have lowered the lights a bit to app 2 feet, but floaters can take up the whole surface fast, i have to cull a lot once a week. I do have to do a bigger removal soon seeing some swords are suffering from to little light.


----------



## drodgers

Edvet said:


> No soil. this same substrate has been in place for 15 years or so. Originally i put some laterite and clay under it, and it  has a heating cable.
> Nowadays i use a form of EI. I dose 3 teaspoons on KNO3, 1 teaspoon of Mg and 1 teaspoon of PO4 3 times a week, and micro's 2 times a week. I feed the fish once a day and they usually get frozen white, red and black mosquito larvae, i guess app 100 gram/day.
> When i went low energy, I increased the distance between the lights and the surface from a few inch to app 3 feet, and added floaters, I have lowered the lights a bit to app 2 feet, but floaters can take up the whole surface fast, i have to cull a lot once a week. I do have to do a bigger removal soon seeing some swords are suffering from to little light.


Thanks this is great info for me ..I would love to ei dose but we have to jump through hoops to get KNO3 the Canadian Government requires a copy of my license and the only person who sells it is 2000 km away 
cheers!


----------



## ian_m

drodgers said:


> ei dose but we have to jump through hoops to get KNO3 the Canadian Government requires a copy of my license


Not quite so, you are confusing the use for black powder making, which does require licensing. However is available from lab suppliers and farm shops in Canada eg http://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Nitrate-Saltpeter-500g-Food-Grade-P16377.aspx as well as Ebay.ca under aquarium supplies and various other categories (including stump removal....).


----------



## drodgers

ian_m said:


> Not quite so, you are confusing the use for black powder making, which does require licensing. However is available from lab suppliers and farm shops in Canada eg http://www.sciencecompany.com/Potassium-Nitrate-Saltpeter-500g-Food-Grade-P16377.aspx as well as Ebay.ca under aquarium supplies and various other categories (including stump removal....).


Thanks ill try it what can i loose ..
I refuse to give my id online (see link at the bottom)
http://www.theplantguy.org/PlantGuys-Potassium-Nitrate-KNO3-1-pound_p_618.html

As for ebay it ships from over seas I doubt it would make it here in fact I may have problems getting it across the border from the us but im willing to try


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Edvet said:


> 1400@20-11-14 by Edvet, on Flickr


 Ed I assume the flower is _Hydrocleys nymphoides? _How big has it grown? If I ever get a big tank it is definitely on my "want" list.

cheers Darrel


----------



## BigTom

Yeah I'm after some Hydrocleys as well. I'm hoping some of the pond plant suppliers will have it come the spring.


----------



## Edvet

dw1305 said:


> How big has it grown


 The flower: app 5 cm diameter ( i have seen about 5 of them now, but i don't look at the top of the floaters everyday); the plant: huge if you let it. I started with three small plants. first it throws out some floating leaves and the it start to send out side shoots, if I let it I could have it cover my whole tank. I removed some of the shoots and planted app 10 of them in the right front part of the tank, these went to the surface fast.
I need to prune all the floaters every week now hence they cover the whole tank, i still want to see if i can relocate them a bit in a way their shadows bother the swords less.
And i stil contemplate have the whole tank with the lilies only............


----------



## Edvet

BigTom said:


> Yeah I'm after some Hydrocleys as well


If the missus passes Lelystad i can hand her some. It's rumored to be hard to send through the post.


----------



## BigTom

Heh thanks I'll keep it in mind. No trips to the modderland planned for a little while though.


----------



## Edvet

What no Xmas at the inlaws..............


----------



## BigTom

Not this year. Did you like my bilingual pun? I relayed it to Annelies and she just gave me a withering look.


----------



## Edvet

lol


----------



## Edvet

Removed a lot of the floating mass of plants yesterday, blocked a bit to much light, replanted a lot of Hydrocleis shoots, wil take a pic tonight, should have cleared up by then.
Just as a side thought: i left a lot of debris in the tank, didn't clean it for app 2 months. It collects at the base of the swords and just sits there, but even while the tank could be considered "dirty", there is not one single spot of BGA.


----------



## BigTom

Yeah I've got half an inch of wood and grass based detritus in low flow areas in my tank, and not an atom of algae anywhere. I do only have 36w of LED light over 16 square feet however!

Good old low-tech...


----------



## Edvet

DSC_5823_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## BigTom

I very much like your _Hydrocleys_ Ed. And pretty much all your fish.


----------



## Edvet

Today the first leaf of Nymphaea glandulifera on it's way to the surface?
Nymphaea glandulifera, first leaf to surface by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## Edvet

Update, thinned out on top.
DSC_5837_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## parotet

This is beautiful! I really love this tank, it's getting better and better.

Jordi


----------



## Edvet

Things to do/achieve:
A) the swords need to get bigger, they can be quite bigger, cutting them of from the light through floaters has hurt them.
B) I need some groundcover, but 1) it needs to be manageable ( i can't tinker around in the tank all the time) 2) not grow to thick or to high (and trap all kind of gunk, give way to BGA)
    3) grow in lowish light
C) need something left side behind the wood, not to fast or to high growing  (hard to reach), preferably app 60 cm high.
D) the lily like plants (Nymphaea and Hydrocleis) are doing reasonably well, I probably will let those cover the tank instead of the other floaters, more manageable

Overall i think i am on the correct path lightwise, little algae. Changing the amount of floaters (decreasing them atm) mightt be a risc, but i'll see. I need to get a bit more light to the swords. Still using a form of EI.
I like to use plants that i can let grow to full maturity, and not need to prune all the time.


----------



## Greenfinger2

Hi Edvet, Coming along nicely


----------



## Edvet

1400 gallon 5-4-15 by Edvet, on Flickr
Getting more and more what i want, still need something back left.


----------



## BigTom

Love the _Eichornia azurea_. I order it every fortnight at work but the supplier never has any in stock.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Looking really good, can't see any BBA anymore, plants and fish seem to love it too.


----------



## Edvet

Thx, all. There are some small spots on older leaves, but nothing that is troublesome. Trying to get a bit more light in the tank to improve on the growth of the swordplants, they still are to small. It feels the floating leaves from the Hydrocleis block less light then a deck of floaters, the letting just  abit more in for the bottom plants. Planning to move the lights closer to the surface gradually.
There are a bit to many old leaves on the larger swords, but removing them is quite an undertaking in this tank, maybe Amano could send over his minions for a while.


----------



## Martin in Holland

Edvet said:


> maybe Amano could send over his minions for a while


I think they are to busy in Portugal now


----------



## roadmaster

Crypt balansae for back left corner maybe?
Does not grow too fast, but will grow to near surface with time.(month's) 
Lot's of pot's of crypt Parva for some ground cover.? Or maybe bucephla (sp)?


----------



## Edvet

thx for thinking along, but i just want south american plants in it, i am strange that way



roadmaster said:


> Crypt balansae for back left corner maybe?
> Does not grow too fast, but will grow to near surface with time.(month's)
> Lot's of pot's of crypt Parva for some ground cover.? Or maybe bucephla (sp)?


----------



## roadmaster

Ahh,I see.


----------



## dougstar

Your tank is a stunner hope my tank gets somewhere as close to yours one day


----------



## Edvet

dougstar said:


> Your tank is a stunner


 Thx , not yet a stunner, but it has potential i hope to fill one day, 50% there i guess


----------



## Edvet

DSC_5970_copy by Edvet, on Flickr
DSC_5967_copy by Edvet, on Flickr
DSC_5947_copy by Edvet, on Flickr


----------



## roadmaster

Lovely,err,, I mean handsome fishes.


----------



## Edvet

Been "neglecting" the tank (still feeding and waterchanges) to see which way it want to go. I am trying to find a dfferent look.
Today the floaters needed some "bushwacking".
Before:
DSC_6445_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr

After:
DSC_6447_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr


----------



## James O

That's some growth!


Hi-rise floaters


----------



## Martin in Holland

Any light penetrating the tank at all before?


----------



## Edvet

Yeah, but dim. no BGA though........ and the fish are happy
I want to try and find some natural look.


----------



## Edvet

Quick update:
DSC_6452_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr

thinking about removing the hardscape  and replacing it with some thinner/lighter branches. Need to replace the nymphaea under the center back spotlight, will do that next week


----------



## BigTom

Is all the vertical planting Hydrocleys? Looks awesome.


----------



## Edvet

Aye, trying to get them everywhere  (just replanted all the lower ones fromm sprouts)  , with the lilly in the back, and basically going for fewer plants spp.


----------



## flygja

I agree, those Hydrocleys look superb. Wondering where I can get some now.


----------



## Edvet

Problem with Hydrocleis is it ships badly (goes bad fast) so you need to get the post fast, or collect


----------



## Edvet

Some quick pics; (I need to clean the glas first before i can do some fts)
DSC_6464_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr
DSC_6542_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr
DSC_6505_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr


----------



## Andy D

Nice!


----------



## Ray

Nice journal and tank, with videos it took an hour to digest the whole thing in one go.  I admire your dedication to biotype and the unusual species you have managed to locate!
I know it's old news now, but it's a shame you never managed to lick the BBA and had to go low tech. Am I right to say you had flow from 4 sources:
- Eheim filter adding CO2 (CO2 level higher than tank levels)
- Sump return pump (CO2 level lower than tank levels)
- 2x Koralia jets alternately coming on and off (for mixing) causing strong but irregular flow.
If so, then I am not surprised you had BBA.  In a tank of that size there would not be good mixing and any given location would receive varying levels of CO2 throughout the day.  This, as we know, tends to induce BBA.  Did you ever try putting CO2 on the sump return flow?  I suspect that would have worked better, even if CO2 were at lower levels the coverage would have been less patchy which the plants could have adjusted to.


----------



## Edvet

Both the ejects from the Eheim and the sump came in the same "chamber"in the tank, i even had extra CO2 added to the sump outflow, i had a nice pH drop, 1.2-1.3 points.The flow from the koralias was to strong (smal hard jet) to leave on 24/7.
In hindsite if i ever want to go high tech again i will go for a large spraybar to get the flow i need. On the other hand i had great results with just a little added CO2 a few years ago (one large spiral diffusor in the "inflow chamber). Right now i am trying to get a more natural look (something you "could" encounter in the wild) while doing something else then the regular wood/one sword/floaters/leaflitter ones. Hence i am always scouring the internet for new underwater biotope picrures to get ideas. Luckily there is more and more then ever findable. If i get what i want then i might start adding some CO2 to enhance growth.


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## chrism

I've loved this journal - it's been a big inspiration to me for my next (and first big) tank.  I really like the last pic, love the slim vertical growth...


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## Edvet

chrism said:


> love the slim vertical growth


More of that coming up


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## DanielC03

[Quote = 64_copy por Ed Prust, en Flickr

DSC_6505_copy por Ed Prust, en Flickr [/ quote]
Tank inspiring .That kind is that?


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## Edvet

It's a Pyrrhulina spp, most likely a P. brevis. Dominant males have nice red fins.


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## DanielC03

Thank . I did not know.


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## Edvet

Some updates, handheld, no flash, so mediocre
Fts ( slightly from the left
DSC_6561_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr

from below
DSC_6589_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr

from above
DSC_6633_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr

Crenuchus spilurus
DSC_6621_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr

Apistogramma bitaeniata
DSC_6601_copy by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## Edvet

The Hydrocleis is turning out to be a small pain in the butski. If left unchecked it will grow large, lots of sprouts on top and kill all the light.  Thus i need to thin it out regularly. I am hoping the Nymphaea glandulifera will be better, it will get floating leaves (thats what i am looking for) but will be easier to maintain since there are only the leaves which come frome the base of the plant. I will be getting some more Eichornia azurea next week. and some Eichornia diversifolia. (if i manage to find a way to propagate them better, i will let a few shoots get to the top again and see if i get them to flower)
The large floating plantmass on the right top is Najas sp "Roraima". It's not as red as it was with CO2, but it's nice for the fish, and it's not in the way (just floats there and hides the overflow). On the left side i have wrapped Hydrocotyle leucocephala over a brace, letting it hit the water. There are submerged shoots and a lot of roots there over the driftwood, thus creating some hiding spots for those who want it too.
The swords have had a bad time through too much cover, and too little light. Like it is now they should recover.  Hoping the Nymphaea's will do better now they get more light. I want 3/4 plants giving floating leaves, then i can reduce the Hydrocleis to 2/3 plants. In the end i should only have plants which are found in the Peruvian amazon as are the fish. Only thing needed then is seting up a reasonable facsimile of a small clear water stream.


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## chrism

Sorry to hear it's being such a pain!  I really like the effect though, so hopefully the other one will be easier to maintain.  

Thanks for the update, this is very similar to what I'm hoping to achieve if we can ever find a house to buy!


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## Edvet

I could probably work in a smaller tank, which is easier to maintain. I have to get up a ladder (and sometimes even strip down to my undies and stand in the tank) which makes it harder to do proper intensive maintenance.


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## chrism

Ooh err!  

How deep is it?  I'm considering a 6'x2'x2' but think it may be too deep - I only have little arms! 


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## Edvet

waterdepth is 75 cm, but on the right side the tank is 120 cm wide, laying on my stomach on the edge i can only manage to get to app 80-90 cm.


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## chrism

Oh it really is a beast! 


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## Edvet

Update: added the Eichornia azurea just left of middle behind the zosterifolia, and the Eichornia diversifolia on the right (also a few strands on zosterifolia there which have to be replanted)
1400pano17102015 by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## Edvet

Just did some maintenance yesterday. Real life has me busy a bit and so besides daily ferts and automated waterchange i didn't do much in the tank for 6 months. The tank has the tendency to absolutely grow full on floaters thus blocking the light and the submerged plants suffer from that (though the fish like it). So maintenance is weeding out a lot of floaters ( Ceretopteris pteroides, Pistia and runners/shoots from the Hydrocleis). Opening it up again will allow the swords to grow a bit more. Will keep it like this (try at least) and see if they can get a bit more mass. Pics will follow later.


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## Edvet

Quick and dirty pic:


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## Edvet

Cleaned a bit more.


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## Costa

How do you find all these fantastic plants and rare fish Edvet?! Pisses me off


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## Edvet

We may not have easy rocks here in holland, but we do have a good LFS


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## Costa

Edvet said:


> We may not have easy rocks here in holland, but we do have a good LFS



Do they ship overseas? ^^


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## leetaylor

well ive got Tank envy! lol


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## Edvet

Quick handheld phone update: ( i got a carpet!!..........well it's a layer of moss)

The biotodoma's are dying one by one, no obvious signs, so i am guessing age related, they are about 4 years in the tank. Thinking of adding all the Apistogramma eremnopyge fry.


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## hotashes

Edvet said:


> Quick handheld phone update: ( i got a carpet!!..........well it's a layer of moss)
> 
> The biotodoma's are dying one by one, no obvious signs, so i am guessing age related, they are about 4 years in the tank. Thinking of adding all the Apistogramma eremnopyge fry.




Nice Ed, great to see some footage.  Have subscribed...
Love biotodoma and only have 3 myself.
Need a bit of wood like that myself 


Ashley..
Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace ️


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## Ruke

Hi what substrate did u use?


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## Edvet

Coarse riversand. It's been there for 18 years now,


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## chrism

Edvet said:


> Coarse riversand. It's been there for 18 years now,



How have you secured your moss?  Last week I sandwiched some moss between two bits of stainless steel wire mesh, hoping to form a moss carpet, but the steel is definitely unsightly at the moment...  Was wondering if you used a more attractive technique?


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## Macman6

Ed, i'm sure you previously said that Apisto's have never been a success in this tank, what do you think has change that will work this time?
i'm not trying to have a go, just curious as they are a Genus i love.


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## Edvet

chrism said:


> How have you secured your moss


It's just lying on the substrate like a thick layer, probably with a layer of mulm under it.
About the apisto's: sadly i have lost all the eremnopyge youngsters. When i started to remove all plants from the cube to clean the tank and collect the young there where just 3 young left . hadn't realy noticed anything  because the tank was so densely grown over. so i don't know what happened exactly. I did add some ferts, maybe just a bit to much as they where in very soft water. There are still 2 or 3 in the tank they are hiding in the "wall-growth"as i near the tank, so i haven't seen them closeup.
The trifasciata young are doing fine. They will go to a shop in the near future.


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## Edvet

Macman6 said:


> Apisto's have never been a success in this tank


Still can't figure out why though, doesn't make sense other than the depth creating some problems maybe. There is one adult male living in the large tank atm, goes well.


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## Edvet

Edvet said:


> sadly i have lost all the eremnopyge youngster


No i didn't, they are all there, just hiding very efficiently in the growth on the walls


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## Edvet

New additions (phone pic for now): Chalceas erythraeus " Tucan fish"


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## Edvet

I have been feeding the tank very sparsely to see the effect: made little difference on the swords, floaters are thinning, yellowing, and the Hydrocleis has less shoots and runners. All makes sense
I will start feeding a bit more again now.
I've been looking at those Chalceus for some years now, they are bigger fish, but now i like to see them in their full splendor


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## Edvet

Chalceus turning out good and healthy, just ate their fill:
Nice red and yellow fins and i love the scales on these:


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## jonathanj

look a little like a african tiger fish without the teeth lol

nice that though bud


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## Edvet




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## Edvet

Another handheld phone vid


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## Costa

The Chalceas are beautiful. Pisses me off how you have access to such beautiful fish and rare plants.

Do you still use the TMC tiles for lighting?


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## Edvet

I have 2 tiles in there, on middle back and one right side back over the swordplant, 2 T5''s ( 58W) and 2 metalhalides 100 w each.


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## DeepMetropolis

Looks really peacefull. Can imagine you can sit for hours looking at the fish.


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## Costa

@Edvet can you please share an updated list of the fauna in your tank? I am rescaping my 200gal and look for ideas


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## Edvet

Angels: Pterophyllum scalare ( 2 nanay ones and 2 regular ones)
Biotodoma cupido ( one left from a group of 6, introduced june 2014)
Pseudanos trimaculatus 6
Crenuchus spilurus (3 or 4 left from larger group June 2014)
Asselus colomesus ,5, newly introduced 4 weeks or so ago
Otocinclus species, somewhere between 5-10, introduced 2013 as a large  group (30 or so)
Characidium fasciatum 4 and characidium spp 4, the fasciatum are also 5/6 years old, got some fresh ones 4 weeks ago too
Apistogramma bitaeniata, 2 large males about 18 months old, these where left over from a breeding try, and i took them back to the large tank 2 months ago. 4 small females i bought 4 weeks ago and introduced to the tank immediatly
Hyphessobrycon rubrostriata, one of the newer tetra's, 20 or so with a H. amaniensis and a another one ( can't remember the name atm) mixed in inadvertently. beautifull fish. From 6 weeks ago
Brochis splendens and Corydoras elegans, mixed group (6 or 8) left over for larger groups of both (2014)
One Apisto male D number, havent got any females left, so it went in the large tank together with 2 bitaeniata males.
Chalceus erythrurus 10, one jumped from the original group. These WILL EAT PLANTS!  My Hydrocleis are being massacared by these, they bite the stems, they also nibble at floaters. Havent seen the attacking swords
Macrobrachium brasiliensis, i introduced them 2 years ago, never saw them again, 6 months ago i could get another batch, i dropped in the 10 largest in the 400 gallon and the rest went into the white cube. A few weeks ago i started spotting a few big ones. They hide in the moss blanket and come out when i feed. If i see pregnant females in my cube i will start adding more to the 400 gallon, they are growing but i havent seen pregnant females yet.

That's about it


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## Costa

Thank you @Edvet ! It looks like your tank is understocked. What do you plan on getting in the next week's and months? Do you have any medium and long term fauna targets?


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## Edvet

Always been a Peru orientated tank. i always like to see fish together that could meet in real life. I look up the new fish from my preferred  (or better only) LFS to see if something tickles my fancy.
At the moment there is plenty in the tank. But if something special i like comes up i might buckle.
I loved the tank when it was "" orinoco"" orientated, i had a good group of altums as the main focus. It has also been a "discus" tank.
My longer term plan is a large shallow one with some special fish, there will be some changes coming next year, so maybe this will be the year the shallow comes ( and the 400 gallon goes).


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## Tim Harrison

Edvet said:


> My longer term plan is a large shallow one with some special fish, there will be some changes coming next year, so maybe this will be the year the shallow comes ( and the 400 gallon goes).


That sounds exciting, what would your plans for it be Ed if it came to fruition?


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## Edvet

Something around


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## aquacoen

Hi Edvet, two months ago I tried to get my hands on the Tucano Tetra but didn't succeed. I asked different shops in the Netherlands to send me an email if they have them available. If I ever hear something I'll let you know!


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## Edvet

Oh, they are available every now and then, just don''t have a spot for them yet. They would be angel food in my 400 gallon


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## Edvet

Look at the colors on this adult male................................wow


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## Edvet

As beautifull as the tucano's were, the massacered my plants and now they have to go, back to the shop tomorow. Catching them will be a royal pain in the behind, but i will drop waterlevel a lot and see what gives.
Next step will be adding floaters and new plants trying to get the tank green with plants. Also a few weeks ago my trusted Giesemann HQI died ( after 20 years day in day out service already, shocking!) and i replaced it with another pair of 80W T5's, so there are now 4 80W and two TMC tiles.
The cover of moss on the bottom was about 60-65%, problem was all the muck collected under it, huge amount of mulm. I guess this sparked my BGA problems. With the tucano's gone i will clean a bit more ( tucano's were very jumpy) and with the added plantmass i am guessing problem will be gone in a few weeks.
So for now the 'Ugly" and the "Bad", hoping for the "Good" soon.


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## Edvet




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## Tim Harrison

Nice looking fish...


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## Edvet

A day later........
Managed to catch them in an hour or so ( waterlevel was about 40 %).
Brought back nice large hatchets (almost 2 inches), Brochis splendens (replenish my group) and some swordplants. Also got floaters from another tank. 
Meanwhile the tank was filled with tapwater, added fish and planted everything ( Echinodorus bleheri and E. impai).


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## Edvet

Some more swords and some Heteranthera zosterifolia. One more shipment of plants to go.


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## Edvet

One more box of plants and now we play the waiting game
Plants: Echinodurus horemanni/uruguayensis,E. grisebachi bleheri, E. martii/major, E.paleafolius, E. cordifolius 'fluitans', E. grandifolius, E.osiris 'rubra', E.schluteri leopard, Heteranthera zosterifolia, Myrophyllum 'Santa Caterina'/aquaticum var. santacantarinense and floaters.


 


 
1: palaefolius, 2:cordifolius, 3:martii, 4:cordifolius, 5:bleheri, 6: schluteri, 7: uruguayensis, 8:grandifolius, 9siris
placement will be changed according to size


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## CooKieS

Edvet said:


> Something around



That is one lovely tetra..have seen them at my lfs, 12€ each


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## Costa

Same price here in Greece. Don't think they would live long lives in overflow setups though.


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## hypnogogia

What a stunning tank, and great to see its evolution over several years.  Looking forward to more.


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## LondonDragon

Stunning!! this still going @Edvet ????


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## Filip Krupa

Edvet said:


> Catching them will be a royal pain in the behind, but i will drop waterlevel a lot and see what gives.



🤣🤣🤣🤣
Oh man, I feel your pain.
When I dump a fish into mine, its never coming out.

Btw, tank is looking mighty fine!

Fil


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