# 60cm - See what sticks



## flygja (25 May 2014)

Here's my new 60cm 60L scape.

60 x 30 x 36cm
2x 24W PLL fluorescent currently at 5 hours per day
Eheim 2217
CO2 at 2 bps through inline Up Aqua diffuser
ADA Aquasoil New Amazonia (re-used in 3 or 4 scapes by now!)
Fertilised with EI (If I remember my formula correctly)
16 teaspoons KNO3 + 2 teaspoons KH2PO4 + 28 teaspoons MG2SO4 in 500mL of water. 6 ml dose 3x a week
2 teaspoons trace mix in 250mL of water. 1 ml dose 3x a week

Plants:
Micranthenum sp Monte Carlo
Pogostemon helferi (downoi)
Blyxa japonica
Anubias barteri sp nana
Micranthenum micranthemoides
Rotala rotundifolia sp Green
Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala sp Vietnam
Ammania sp. Bonsai
Ludwigia arcuata
Microsorum pteropus Narrow (to be added later as the ones in my large tank are doing very poorly)

Onto the pics.
All cleaned up and ready for a scape





The plan was to create a triangular scape, so soil was further sloped up towards the rear right corner.




Driftwood in.




Rocks go in around the driftwood.




Water is then filled up to about 2cm so I can plant the Micranthenum Monte Carlo. I didn't have enough to fill the whole scape so I hope it spreads.




Anubias barteri sp. nana is placed into the cracks between the stones and driftwood. Downoi is planted just in front of the left-most anubias.




Blyxa japonica is planted in between some rocks on the left side and Ammania sp. Bonsai is planted on the right.




Water is then filled up to about half and the stems are planted.




Equipment is fitted.




And a view from above showing the stems. From right, Rotala rotundifolia sp Green, Micranthenum micranthemoides in front of it, Rotala rotundifolia, Rotala sp Vietnam and Ludwigia arcuata in front of it.


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## allan angus (25 May 2014)

looking good


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## flygja (8 Sep 2014)

Long overdue update. All's not been doing well with this tank of mine. There are very minimal algae problems, except for the time when my CO2 ran out and it caught some BBA. Just some minor scrubbing of GAS on the glass every weekend during the water change. Growth is EXTREMELY slow. In fact, there's more melting than growing apart from a few plants. And I'm totally unsure why. I used to be able to grow plants and now I can't for some reason.

Here's the full tank shot. You can see that almost all of the Monte Carlo has melted away and whatever's left is in a state of stasis. Not growing neither melting. I believe Clive mentions that it means the plant is making just enough energy to survive. How do I change that?




What remains of the Monte Carlo




Rotala rotundifolia stripped of lower leaves and poor regrowth after a trim.




At least the Anubias barteri var nana are doing rather well. And no algae on them either! Some even have a pleasant marble effect now.




Added some Micranthenum micranthemoides (I believe they're called something glomeratus now?). They're also doing quite well and starting to creep a bit. But growth is still slow I feel.




I've also modified the lighting from 2x 24W PLL to 2x 36W PLL. Haven't measured PAR yet, but the fixture is now hung higher than it was with the 2x 24W. I still dose EI but with 50% more PO4 to prevent GSA.

Question - do trace elements powders expire? I've had mine for some years now.


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2014)

Hi all,





flygja said:


> Question - do trace elements powders expire? I've had mine for some years now.


 Shouldn't do if they are dry powders, the "stable" isotopes of the elements are all 7.5 billion years old or older, and have been on earth for the last 4.5 billion years. 

If the micro-elements  are mixed in solution you quite often get precipitates where one of the ions has come out of solution as an insoluble compound.

cheers Darrel


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## flygja (9 Sep 2014)

Thanks Darrel. I feel a little dumb when you say its been around for 7.5 billion years LOL.


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2014)

Hi all, 





flygja said:


> I feel a little dumb when you say its been around for 7.5 billion years LOL.


 I'd never really thought about either, until it came up indirectly in this thread <For Dan ...Spezial N.....>.

Once you know that our Sun only produces hydrogen (H) and helium (He) atoms (atomic number 1 & 2), and that all the heavier elements can only be produced in a much more massive star, and therefore have must been made outside of our solar system, it becomes clearer.

All the carbon (element 6, stable isotope C12), nitrogen, (element 7, stable isotope N14), oxygen (element 8, stable isotope O16), potassium (element 19, stable isotope K39) etc. have been on the earth since the solar system first formed, and must have been created before that in a huge imploding yellow giant star, before being scattered across the universe in a massive supernovae explosion, and then some time after that accumulating in a big enough dust cloud (via gravity) for a new solar system to be born.

Reactive elements like oxygen (O), carbon (C), iron (Fe) or potassium (K) will always have been combined into various compounds, but if these compounds remain dry, doesn't have energy added to it etc, they won't react with anything and will remain as that same compound, potentially eternally. 

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (9 Sep 2014)

and all the water came as meteorites...how's that for a thought


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## dw1305 (9 Sep 2014)

Hi all,





Edvet said:


> and all the water came as meteorites...how's that for a thought


 I believe your right, and that my last post isn't quite right. 

The current theory is that some proportion of the lighter elements (carbon, oxygen etc) is thought to have arrived in the same manner, but it would  all still have its origin in a supernovae explosion outside of the solar system. <"Earth's water piggybacked on asteroids">.  

This is partially because all the liquid water, volatiles etc. would have been lost during the hot early Earth's history, so you need some to have arrived since the Earth cooled down 3.5 billion years ago. 

cheers Darrel


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## flygja (10 Sep 2014)

Yeap, thats the prevailing theory, that water came onto our planet drop by drop because of meteorites. Though I have some doubts, I mean the energy and heat transferred during an impact would surely be enough to vaporise the water droplets. Although it can of course be trapped in the atmosphere and eventually fall as rain again once things cool down.



dw1305 said:


> Reactive elements like oxygen (O), carbon (C), iron (Fe) or potassium (K) will always have been combined into various compounds, but if these compounds remain dry, doesn't have energy added to it etc, they won't react with anything and will remain as that same compound, potentially eternally.


Does this mean that it needs to be stored in a completely airtight container? I have it in a normal plastic container, which isn't airtight. Do my plants look like they're suffering from micro-nutrient/iron deficiencies?


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## ltsai (10 Sep 2014)

I store all my ferts in air tight containers with "thirsty hippos" to avoid them getting mushy in our weather, especially the epsom and calcium nitrate salts.


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## dw1305 (10 Sep 2014)

Hi all, 





flygja said:


> Does this mean that it needs to be stored in a completely airtight container? I have it in a normal plastic container, which isn't airtight.


 Depends upon the compounds, air tight is best, but it isn't required for all compounds. If a salt has a lot of "water of crystallization"  (like MgSO4.7H2O) it should be all right, but it will form a solid lump rather than remaining as a powder..

The problem is that the nutrients need to be in compounds that are soluble, so they become ions that the plant can utilise in solution.

Some compounds will pick up atmospheric moisture ("hygroscopic" like NaCl), I think most nitrates are in this category, and some will eventually become liquids ("deliquescent"). Deliquescent salts of interest to us include calcium chloride (CaCl) and mono potassium phosphate (KHPO4) and these should be stored in an air tight container (with a desiccant).

cheers Darrel


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## ltsai (10 Sep 2014)

Yeah, lumps are irritating when you have to break them apart to dose. Also, typically our teaspoon calculation is based on "dry" weight and not mushy/wet/moist lumpy ones, otherwise just dose extra to be safe.


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## flygja (10 Sep 2014)

Hmm... ok, all my salts and trace powders are stored in similar containers which are not air tight. MgSO4, KHPO4 and KNO3 do form lumps sometimes, but still looks usable. They don't look the slightest bit liquid I suppose. 

I almost went out to buy a bottle of Seachem Trace and Iron just to isolate if my ferts were causing the melting I've been experiencing. Thanks for your advice Darrel. I'll have to look elsewhere for the cause of that.


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## flygja (12 Oct 2014)

Sharing some macro pics I took.

Added some Amano shrimps








Also some fire red cherries




These blighters came free. At least they're easy to photograph


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## flygja (9 Dec 2014)

Micranthenum micranthemoides overgrown.... 3 weeks without water change and maintenance:
IMG_20141208_092720 by flygja, on Flickr

A top view. I'm liking how the Rotala rotundifolia looks... its a shame it only looks like that from the top!
IMG_20141208_092736 by flygja, on Flickr


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## GTL_UK (9 Dec 2014)

Time to trim it... ;]


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## flygja (12 Dec 2014)

Trimmed!
IMG_20141210_173525 by flygja, on Flickr


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## flygja (10 Jul 2015)

I've got a question I hope you guys can help me about. What causes Rotala rotundifolia to not branch into two when trimmed? Growth is ultra slow in my tank despite it being high-tech and relatively high-light. Dosing EI (switched to PPS-Pro for a couple of months but its back to EI), CO2 drop checker is always yellow during lights-on. But not a single Rotola rotundifolia stem has ever split after being trimmed. What's the cause of this?


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## flygja (15 Oct 2015)

Can you believe that I planted the MC "Monte Carlo" in May and I have NEVER trimmed it and this is how much its grown in ~4 months? Note melted Staurogyne repens at the front right. It was growing very slowly for 2 months, then growth picked up for a month and suddenly started melting after that. 




Yesterday I decided to turn this tank into a "Throw stuff at it and see what sticks" tank. Ripped out the driftwood with ferns attached, almost all the rocks and the Micranthenum micranthemoides. Trimmed the tops of the Ludwigia arcuata and Rotala rotundifolia and replanted.




I selected a bunch of easy-medium-hard plants as defined by Tropica to see which stick. These plants are not from Tropica by the way.



From left to right, back to front -
Rotala rotundifolia - easy
Ludwigia verticillata inclinata - not listed on Tropica
Rotala sp "Blood Red" - not listed on Tropica, guess it should be similar to rotundifolia
Rotala rotundifolia sp "Green" - medium
Rotala macranda sp "Green" - Green variant not listed on Tropica, but assumed as hard
Ludwigia arcuata - not listed on Tropica
Ludwigia palustris sp "Super Red" - Super Red variant not listed on Tropica, but assumed easy
Rotala wallichii sp "Long Leaf" - Long Leaf variant not listed on Tropical, but assumed hard
I also have Proserpinaca palustris - hard and Cryptocoryne can'trememberwhat just out of sight.

I will eventually remove the Anubias barteri var nana also, I don't think they'll do well when blasted with direct lighting.




I have adopted Darrel's duckweed index, though I used Amazon frogbit aka Limnobium laevigatum instead, to monitor for nutrient deficiencies. Growth is good, they double in quantity every 2-3 weeks. Some leaves yellow or melt at the edges while some go transparent. What do these tell you?


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## Edvet (15 Oct 2015)

your floater looks like young  Pistia to me


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## flygja (15 Oct 2015)

Hey Ed. That's as big as it grows, I don't think its water lettuce or pistia.


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## Edvet (15 Oct 2015)

Ok, i remember the leaves from frogbit a bit greener, rounder and smoother. But that may be the picture talking.
Frogbit and red rooted floaters:
39891049_00005534JPEGof by Ed Prust, on Flickr


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## Yo-han (15 Oct 2015)

Somehow when I use those huge Pistia plants in an aquarium I get the same plants as you do in the end. So I agree with Edvet, they look more like Pistia to me.


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## flygja (16 Oct 2015)

Ed, your frogbit has shiny leaves while mine has "hairy" leaves. So my floater has Pistia texture but with frogbit shaped leaves. Confused!


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## Edvet (16 Oct 2015)

Frogtia?


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## Alexander Belchenko (16 Oct 2015)

+1 on pistia version. It needs hell lot of light to develop lettuce shape.


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## dw1305 (16 Oct 2015)

Hi all,





Alexander Belchenko said:


> +1 on pistia version. It needs hell lot of light to develop lettuce shape.


The others are right, it is definitely _Pistia.
_
cheers Darrel


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## flygja (6 Dec 2015)

Haven't updated in a bit. Here's what the tank looks like now. 





It's going pretty good. None of the plants except for Blyxa japonica have melted so far. My first trims were to trim and top in order to remove the emersed leaves. Rotala wallichii seems to be growing the fastest, it's been trimmed three times now, and cuttings replanted at the back. 

I added some Blue Diamond shrimp some weeks ago too. I added 3 but one sadly died. The other two are doing well.








Here's a shot of the pistia. Does anyone know what sorta deficiency this is? They grow really well, about tripling in mass every week. But some of the leaves are going transparent like so. In the tank itself, I've noticed the crown of one Ludwigia inclinata var verticiliata and one Pogostemon helferi going transparent as well, but hasn't affected the rest.




Last week I started a new dosing scheme that doesn't include any KNO3. My API KNO3 test kits show ~80ppm of NO3 before a water change, so it seems like there's enough NO3 being produced by nitrifying bacteria (and enough ammonia to feed them). In case you're wondering, the transparent leaves issue has been happening for a while now, not when I stopped dosing NO3.


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## flygja (16 Dec 2015)

The monte carlo seems to have formed a few bald spots 2 weeks after the last brutal trim. Maybe I left it grow too tall and the bottom shoots which were exposed after trimming cannot survive on their own. Or could it be the effect of not dosing any KNO3? The other plants seem OK, though growth seems to have slowed a bit.


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## flygja (22 Dec 2015)

OK I think the experiment has failed. More and more MC is lifting off the carpet and I'm starting to see yellowish leaves on plants like Staurogyne repens. So its back to 10ppm nitrates this week.


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## flygja (25 Jan 2016)

Things are looking better. I've lowered the lighting to just a few centimetres above the water and the plants are starting to grow more rapidly. Red plants are looking redder too.


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## flygja (15 Mar 2016)

My tank has started to pearl a lot, so I decided to shoot a video yesterday. Apologies for the quality of the FTS video... still trying to learn SLR video.



Comments welcome.


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## Joe Turner (16 Mar 2016)

Cracking video, pearling looks great!


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## Straight Shooter (17 Mar 2016)

Looks like things are nicely in balance now. Super healthy plants including red stems, healthy fish/shrimp. Barely any algae. Light/CO2/nutrient combo must be about right. 

I think you're right to keep nitrate lowish. Blue diamonds can be a little sensitive to higher nitrates... Maybe just aim a concentration of no more than 15ppm nitrate. 10ppm is even better but may need more regular dosing to keep up with plant demand.


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## AndreiD (17 Mar 2016)

Hi , did you find out what was the problem that caused transparent leaves ?


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## flygja (18 Mar 2016)

Straight Shooter said:


> Looks like things are nicely in balance now. Super healthy plants including red stems, healthy fish/shrimp. Barely any algae. Light/CO2/nutrient combo must be about right.
> 
> I think you're right to keep nitrate lowish. Blue diamonds can be a little sensitive to higher nitrates... Maybe just aim a concentration of no more than 15ppm nitrate. 10ppm is even better but may need more regular dosing to keep up with plant demand.


There is some GDA/GSA on the glass which I scrub every week, and some BBA on the filter outlets, but overall is very manageable. I brought nitrates back up to 20ppm, reasons below...



AndreiD said:


> Hi , did you find out what was the problem that caused transparent leaves ?


It happened when I removed KNO3 from my dosing, since my API NO3 test kit showed very high concentrations of NO3. Was just testing it out. Perhaps EI's NO3 requirement is on top of whatever's generated within the tank by the nitrification process. Once I started dosing KNO3 again, the transparent leaves went away. I also realised that I was severely under-dosing iron by 4x. Didn't really know how to calculate % by weight into ppm. Now my iron dosing is on track, thanks to the rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator, which handily has the exact Cifo Mikrom trace mix I was using.


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## flygja (18 Mar 2016)

I must say that of all the tanks I've made, this is the one I can really sit in front of and stare. The colours, the pearling, the lushness... its all I wanted when I started this hobby. Only took me 8 years!

My next experiment... switching to a lily pipe to see if there are any differences compared to a spray bar. I'd also like to remove the skimmer one day.


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## AndreiD (18 Mar 2016)

Hi , you ca remove the skimmer you have now and use an Eheim skim 350 , best skimmer ever , the skimmer you have now is not the best option because it can suck in more water at the top instead of bottom which is a problem .


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## flygja (21 Mar 2016)

AndreiD said:


> Hi , you ca remove the skimmer you have now and use an Eheim skim 350 , best skimmer ever , the skimmer you have now is not the best option because it can suck in more water at the top instead of bottom which is a problem .


Thanks for the advice. The eheim skimmer is however, more expensive and is another piece of powered equipment in a tank. I prefer to use the passive skimmer


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