# High ammonia, nitrites AND nitrates during cycling



## 3rdTimeLucky (13 Jul 2016)

Hi - newbie here.
I'm cycling my new tank, in preparation for a low tech set-up. I am puzzled why I am seeing very high readings of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I thought ammonia would have dropped to zero before nitrates are seen? Could it be high nitrates in the original tap water?

Tank is a 60cm cube with a sump. Ada Amazonia substrate and power sand. Tank has been cycling for about 1 week now. 

I think I'll just be patient and let things take their course, but any guidance greatly appreciated!

Thanks


----------



## MrHidley (13 Jul 2016)

Your tank is still cycling and there is a high enough amount of ammonia that the bacteria can't yet convert it all to nitrite/nitrate. Are you doing water changes daily?


----------



## roadmaster (13 Jul 2016)

Nitrates from the tap cold be present(what is high?) ,dodgy test kit also.
Lot's of fast growing plant's, and or some borrowed filter media from an already established tank can help.


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (13 Jul 2016)

MrHidley said:


> Your tank is still cycling and there is a high enough amount of ammonia that the bacteria can't yet convert it all to nitrite/nitrate. Are you doing water changes daily?



Hi MrH - thanks for replying. I have not yet done a water change. I emailed the guys who sold me the substrate (they are well known on this forum - and have, I think, an excellent reputation). They suggested I do a 90% water change after 1 week (which I will do on Friday), 90% a week after that, which is when I also should heavily plant. 

The Ada Amazonia releases ammonia, so I have not added any for the cycle. I'm in no rush, so I'm happy to allow the bacteria to catch-up. I was simply surprised to see nitrates while the cycle was not yet finished.


----------



## dw1305 (13 Jul 2016)

Hi all,





3rdTimeLucky said:


> I'm cycling my new tank, in preparation for a low tech set-up.


When you say cycling what exactly do you mean? Is the tank planted? and are you adding extra ammonia? 





3rdTimeLucky said:


> The Ada Amazonia releases ammonia, so I have not added any for the cycle.


 I must have sent this as you posted. 

Do you have plants? and specifically some floating ones with access to aerial CO2? If you don't? then adding them will make the process quicker. Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) is ideal for this, but Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) or Water Lettuce (_Pistia stratiotes_) etc will work.

You also need to make sure you have a lot of aeration, because biological filtration is an oxygen intensive process..

You can have simultaneous high levels of NH3/4+, NO2- and NO3-, the traditional linear view of cycling, by a very limited suite of bacteria,




 
isn't really true, it is a much complex situation with a much wider range of organisms involved.

cheers Darrel


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (13 Jul 2016)

roadmaster said:


> Nitrates from the tap cold be present(what is high?) ,dodgy test kit also.
> Lot's of fast growing plant's, and or some borrowed filter media from an already established tank can help.


Nitrates were between 80 and 160ppm - hard to tell the difference on the colour chart.

I'll not be putting too much reliance on the test-kit, as i'be read that they are not too reliable. There are no fish in the tank, so no harm is being done. I'm tempted to let the bacteria gradually build-up. I've got some sponge from another tank, so that should help.


----------



## EdwinK (13 Jul 2016)

Hi,

Somehow you manage to ignore the most important question - do you have plants in the tank?


----------



## frogbit (13 Jul 2016)

Why don't you test the nitrate level in your tap water to give you a base line? I'm always amazed to hear the differences from one area to another. It's also a good idea to keep an eye on PH, just to make sure your cycle doesn't stall.


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (13 Jul 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,When you say cycling what exactly do you mean? Is the tank planted? and are you adding extra ammonia?  I must have sent this as you posted.
> 
> Do you have plants? and specifically some floating ones with access to aerial CO2? If you don't? then adding them will make the process quicker. Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) is ideal for this, but Duckweed (_Lemna minor_) or Water Lettuce (_Pistia stratiotes_) etc will work.
> 
> ...



Hi Darrel - thanks for the help. There are no plants yet. I received advice from the retailer that sold me the substrate to do a 90% water change after 1 week, another 90% a week after that, and at that point to start planting. If i keep to this plan, i will get my plants in about 10 days from now.

Is your suggestion to get the floating plants to speed up the cycle? I have a sump, and the overflow of the tank down to the sump might create a bit of problems with floating plants? I don't want them to block the overflow. I am not in a rush to cycle the tank, so am ok if i have to give the floating plants a miss? In fact is it a problem to not plant at all at this stage?

I didn't quite understand your point about "very limited suite of bacteria". Are you saying that i don't need to be concerned about simultaneous high levels of ammonia, nitric and nitrate? Is it just a case of giving the bacteria enough time to develop?

In terms of aeration, the splashing in the sump certainly creates a lot of it (something that might become a problem for me when i want to keep CO2 levels higher - partly why i'm sticking with low tech).

Thanks


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (13 Jul 2016)

Hi Edwin - sorry i didn't make it clear. i've answered the plant question in my response to Darrel


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (13 Jul 2016)

frogbit said:


> Why don't you test the nitrate level in your tap water to give you a base line? I'm always amazed to hear the differences from one area to another. It's also a good idea to keep an eye on PH, just to make sure your cycle doesn't stall.


Hi Frogbit - i'll check the nitrates in the tap water soon. What do you mean about the PH potentially stalling the cycle?


----------



## EdwinK (14 Jul 2016)

3rdTimeLucky said:


> Hi Darrel - thanks for the help. There are no plants yet. I received advice from the retailer that sold me the substrate to do a 90% water change after 1 week, another 90% a week after that, and at that point to start planting. If i keep to this plan, i will get my plants in about 10 days from now.
> 
> Is your suggestion to get the floating plants to speed up the cycle? I have a sump, and the overflow of the tank down to the sump might create a bit of problems with floating plants? I don't want them to block the overflow. I am not in a rush to cycle the tank, so am ok if i have to give the floating plants a miss? In fact is it a problem to not plant at all at this stage?



It is a problem. Plants will help a lot to cycle your tank.



3rdTimeLucky said:


> I didn't quite understand your point about "very limited suite of bacteria". Are you saying that i don't need to be concerned about simultaneous high levels of ammonia, nitric and nitrate? Is it just a case of giving the bacteria enough time to develop?
> 
> In terms of aeration, the splashing in the sump certainly creates a lot of it (something that might become a problem for me when i want to keep CO2 levels higher - partly why i'm sticking with low tech).
> 
> Thanks



Sump will help you maintain the CO2 levels more stable but you will need to inject more and think about effective way how to dissolve it.


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (14 Jul 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Sump will help you maintain the CO2 levels more stable but you will need to inject more and think about effective way how to dissolve it.



I'm going for low tech plants, so hoping to avoid any injected co2. Sorry to ask another question - are you saying that without planting now that my tank might fail to cycle properly? Or is it just that it will take longer? I don't mind waiting as I'm not in a rush. Thanks for your help!


----------



## frogbit (14 Jul 2016)

I live in an area with very soft water, and was affected by two Ph crashes during the cycling of my tank. Basically, during the process of the cycle, there is the possibility of pH fluctuations. The ammonia has basic properties which can raise the pH as you add it, and the nitrifying bacteria produces acidic waste which will lower it as the cycle progresses. If you have low hardness and alkalinity to your water, these pH fluctuations can be much more dramatic. Performing a 50% pwc at the height of your cycle will restore buffers and prevent any serious crashes or drops in pH. A Potassium Bicarbonate or Bicarbonate of Soda may also be added to raise the Ph from acidic levels.

Your cycle won't fail because you don't have plants, but it can take longer.

I added plants part way through, because I had the tank at over 30 degrees. A tank at over 30 is recommended for cycling but isn't always very kind to plants.

Do you know if you have hard or soft water?


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (14 Jul 2016)

frogbit said:


> Do you know if you have hard or soft water?



My tap water is hard (I live in south London). I'll need to measure it tonight. I tested the tank water yesterday and was something like 7/8 gh and kh. Perhaps the soil has softened the water in the tank? Thanks for the warning on the ph crash. At the moment, with no livestock or plants, is that a problem? In any case, I'm doing a large water change in Friday


----------



## frogbit (14 Jul 2016)

You definitely don't want livestock in there anyway! A cycle without fish is a humane approach, and the best way to do things IMO.

 I wouldn't be too concerned about the plants but it would be helpful if you can get some in there fairly soon. Just whack the temperature up meantime to get the cycle motoring along.


----------



## EdwinK (14 Jul 2016)

Well raising the temperature isn't the best idea because oxygen saturation drops significantly. You want as much oxygen as you can get at so called cycling stage. And you can plant your tank now. Plants consume all nitrogen and phosphorus products so help to manage their levels.


----------



## frogbit (14 Jul 2016)

I'm probably coming at this from a different angle @EdwinK

When I first started out the priority for me was the welfare of my fish. The "fishless cycle" is speeded up by increasing the tank temperature to 30+ and therefore the sooner I completed the cycle the sooner I could safely introduce fish. I've become more obsessed by plants as time has gone on.

Good surface agitation and flow will facilitate O2 absorption, even as higher temperatures.


----------



## dw1305 (14 Jul 2016)

Hi all,





3rdTimeLucky said:


> I didn't quite understand your point about "very limited suite of bacteria". Are you saying that i don't need to be concerned about simultaneous high levels of ammonia, nitric and nitrate? Is it just a case of giving the bacteria enough time to develop?


Yes you don't need to worry, just wait. We now know that the primary ammonia oxidising organisms in aquariums are Archaea, rather than bacteria.





3rdTimeLucky said:


> i'll check the nitrates in the tap water soon.


 You will have some NO3- in your water supply, because you live in London. You can get figures from your water supplier that will list the mean , minimum and maximum NO3 values. The EU limit for drinking water is 50ppm NO3, but it is sometimes breached. 





3rdTimeLucky said:


> Is your suggestion to get the floating plants to speed up the cycle? I have a sump, and the overflow of the tank down to the sump might create a bit of problems with floating plants? I don't want them to block the overflow. I am not in a rush to cycle the tank, so am ok if i have to give the floating plants a miss? In fact is it a problem to not plant at all at this stage?


You would <"need to corral the floater"> to stop them ending up in the sump. 





EdwinK said:


> Well raising the temperature isn't the best idea because oxygen saturation drops significantly. You want as much oxygen as you can get at so called cycling stage. And you can plant your tank now. Plants consume all nitrogen and phosphorus products so help to manage their levels.


 Yes, you definitely want to plant the tank. Somewhere near 25oC is absolutely fine for both plants and micro-organisms. 

I'm not very keen on the traditional cycling concept where tank are either "not cycled" or "cycled", it really isn't like that. There is a more complete discussion (and links) in <"Best way to cycle ...">.

cheers Darrel


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (14 Jul 2016)

Thanks all. I've ordered some plants, and will plant them at the weekend. Is it better to plant them all and then do a water change? Or do the water change first? Or take nearly all the water out, plant them while the tank is nearly empty, and then add new water?


----------



## frogbit (14 Jul 2016)

It will be easier for you to plant without much water in the tank. You don't have fish to worry about so a big water change would be OK


----------



## Lindy (15 Jul 2016)

I wouldn't worry about ph crashes as ada amazonia will buffer your ph. You will still see ammonia  as the amazonia will still be leeching it out in large quantities.  Sounds like you are doing everything right.  Amazonia is great for cycling your filter. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (16 Jul 2016)

ldcgroomer said:


> I wouldn't worry about ph crashes as ada amazonia will buffer your ph. You will still see ammonia  as the amazonia will still be leeching it out in large quantities.  Sounds like you are doing everything right.  Amazonia is great for cycling your filter.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



Hi Lindy

thanks for your comments. I did a 90% water change yesterday, and planted semi-heavily. I thought i had ordered more plants, so not as heavily planted as I would have liked. I checked the water parameters just now (24 hrs later), and ammonia is around 2ppm, and nitres were nil. Hadn't expected the nitres to be nil so quickly. At what stage would you say it is safe to introduce some ottos and SAE? I can already see diatoms (not bothered about them, as i understand they'll disappear soon enough. But there is little bit of brush algae on the wood.

All the plants are low-tech (anubias, ferns etc.). I've set my lighting for 5 hours. Temp is 23 degrees.

I'll try and post some tank pictures tomorrow.

Thanks!


----------



## Lindy (16 Jul 2016)

I'd wait 3-4 weeks before adding anything.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (17 Jul 2016)

I've uploaded a new thread in the journals forum in case anyone is interested in it. Thanks for your help on the water chemistry stuff. If anything specific about the water comes up, I'll post it here, but will probably just keep most questions to the journal thread. Thanks again


----------



## frogbit (17 Jul 2016)

When you have 3 consecutive days of 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite you can add fish. It took me 6 weeks to cycle my tank, you'll probably be a bit quicker. A big water change the night before fish shopping will be needed to reduce nitrates.

You need to research which fish suit your water. Otos need soft slightly acidic water, SAE can tolerate soft to moderate hardness, but I think your tank is on the small side for them.

Plants are important but the welfare of fish is paramount.


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (18 Jul 2016)

frogbit said:


> When you have 3 consecutive days of 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite you can add fish. It took me 6 weeks to cycle my tank, you'll probably be a bit quicker. A big water change the night before fish shopping will be needed to reduce nitrates.
> 
> You need to research which fish suit your water. Otos need soft slightly acidic water, SAE can tolerate soft to moderate hardness, but I think your tank is on the small side for them.
> 
> Plants are important but the welfare of fish is paramount.


Thanks frogbit. I had nitrites back up at 5ppm today, so my excitement was premature. 

In time I will be using RO water (I just don't have enough of it to fill the whole tank in one go - hence using tap water so far). Using RO for my future water changes should help me get conditions that are better for ottos. I've had SAE before, but admittedly that was in a 90cm long tank. I might consider young ones and then move them to a larger home in a couple of years. Not sure. I'm a little hesitant with ottos and shrimp because I want to keep open the option of a pair of angelfish. I'm not totally sure about them, but I think a pair could look good in a 60cm high tank. Ottos and shrimp would eventually become food for the Angels...


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (23 Jul 2016)

Hmmm...i seem to have seen no change at all in my test results. Still 2.0ppm ammonia, 5ppm nitrite, and 40/80ppm nitrate. Taking longer than i was expecting. I wonder if the test kit is dodgy. I have had it for years (opened), but it says it is still within its expiry date of Jan 2017.


----------



## 3rdTimeLucky (25 Jul 2016)

After doing a very large water change and seeing practically no change in test results, i've decided to get some new test-kits, as I realised mine were 4 years old. I've read that this is pretty much at the end of their shelf-life. Hopefully this will bring me some good news, as i just find it strange that my results have hardly changed at all...


----------



## EdwinK (25 Jul 2016)

Check your old tests with tap water.


----------



## pastu (2 Oct 2016)

hi, 3rdtimelucky
i am cycling an acuarium  wit ada amazonia substrate.
 two weeks now, sky high ammonium, nitritres and nitrates ,at the beginning, which could not come from bacteria work. did a few water changes and at two weeks now, barely measurable nitrites and nitrates, and ammonia still sky high, beyond the capacity of my jbl test kit to measure.

i assume the  soil contained nitrites and nitrates besides ammonia. now nitrites and nitrates have been washed out by the water changes.

 and i am left with  the ammonia whict is obviously still leaching  out of the substrato

i believe that there is still no appreciable  nitrifying bacterial activity since nitrites or nitrates are not appearing.

I have  just planted heavily and added co2.
 260 l tank, temp 27, ph 6
 plants are pearling  heavily, hopefully removing ammonia


----------



## pastu (15 Oct 2016)

three weeks into fishles cycling amazonia substrate, ammonia has come down to 3, nitrites and nitrates appeared.. cycling is started... no  bacteria added


----------

