# Mystery deaths



## peaches (24 Apr 2022)

I set up my 200L planted tank at beginning of January moving across stock, substrate, plants and my Juwel internal from my 125L.  I also added a U4 filter as it came with the new tank.  Its running at 24 degrees.  Latest readings pH7.5 NH3 0 NO2 0 NO3 5 KH 4 GH 15.  The only readings that differed from Feb and March are the KH which was 6, then 5 and the GH which was 16 then 15.  I change a third of the water weekly.
I keep losing the odd fish.  At the rate of approx 1 a week.  The fish that go are either platy, or cory.  They do not have any signs of cause of death, but I thought the platys got thin.  In the period of the deaths I have used protozin and myxazin.  This week I used NT Labs Anti Fluke and Wormer.   I thought that would work and after adding it many fish had stringy poop.  But alas not.  I am missing a platy today, no body turned up.
How do I stop the deaths?


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## peaches (24 Apr 2022)

I couldn't work out if this was water chemistry or fish tbh.


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## shangman (24 Apr 2022)

peaches said:


> I couldn't work out if this was water chemistry or fish tbh.


It could be either, sometimes it seems fish catch things after a stressful event (like moving tanks) which suppresses the immune system enough for something already living relatively inertly in the tank or in the fish to take over.

Symptoms like stringy poop and thinness imply a stomach parasite of some sort, so I would treat for worms with Esha NDX first and see how that goes. I have been recommended Esha Optima before by a fish vet to help get up fish's immune system, soi would treat with that too. I would also feed more live food if possible to help with their health. 

There is also a possibility of fishTB, but it has many symptoms so it's often on a list of possible illnesses (thinness, stringy poop, dying one after another). FishTB can be caught by people putting their hands in the tank and is apparently painful, so while you are working out what is afflicting your aquarium, you shouldn't share equipment between tanks(it can spread this way), and you must not put your hand in the tank if it has any sort of cut or scratch on it, and ideally wear gloves.


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## peaches (24 Apr 2022)

Fish TB, yes I've heard of that.  I will try and be careful as I have started a couple of breeding tanks, no stock transferred.  What is strange is it seems to affect some but ignore others.  In particular I have a 3 year old otocinclus who seems bomb proof.


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## peaches (24 Apr 2022)

Does anyone know how long TB can be in a fishes system before causing death?  I want to know if I can consider after x weeks or months of the deaths stopping that I am clear, or if I should regard this tank as being  infected forever?


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## shangman (25 Apr 2022)

Have you treated for worms already then? Just cos it's better to rule that out first before assuming TB.



peaches said:


> Does anyone know how long TB can be in a fishes system before causing death?  I want to know if I can consider after x weeks or months of the deaths stopping that I am clear, or if I should regard this tank as being  infected forever?


It's a difficult question, I have done a lot of research on it recently as my tank caught it and it was rather grim. My fish had a wider range of symptoms than yours though that made it more likely. From what I read, mycobacterium (which cause fishTB) can and do exist in a tank with fish for years and do nothing, and they can kill over years, months, weeks and days, some fish it may never effect. The worse it is, the faster it kills. There are several types of myco which kill at different rates, and only one in a fish tank seems able to hurt people. Of course that's the one that's most likely to kill the fish too so that's why caution is important here. 

Personally in my tank I decided to euthanise all fish, thoroughly clean all equipment and start again, but I had a bad outbreak which seemed to have no end as fish continued to die and suffer (in my case every 3/4 days a new fish would get a new symptom and go downhill very fast, across almost every species. All were small fish. Art the end the remaining fish were very shy and hardly ate), and I had the disease confirmed by a fish vet. 

That's not the only option though, you can treat with a UV Steriliser and a few months of that treatment can be enough to contain the outbreak, saving any fish who have not already been badly infected, and apparently then you can add new fish who will not catch the disease. Diana Walstad wrote an article about it here with her experiences - Mycobacteriosis in Aquarium Fish 
Let me know if you need more info on the UV as I researched that quite a bit too, and bought one to help stop future outbreaks.


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## peaches (25 Apr 2022)

I will look at Walstads post.  I did treat last Thursday with NT Labs Anti fluke and wormer , which is flubendazole.  Straight after all the livebearers had irregular white shaped poo, and today another fish has produced some ( I thought it was all over).  Everyone OK today.  I'm going to do a large water change and clean one of my filters.  

The NT labs treatment wasn't the first wormer I had used.  I had used praziquantel last month.  

I am not totally convinced it's tb...but I don't know what else it is and I am not moving anything in or out of this tank.

I have two other tanks that are OK.


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## peaches (25 Apr 2022)

Yes tell me about the UV.  I didnt think they could cure it.


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## peaches (25 Apr 2022)

Looks like Walstad had success with UV.  Do you have to have external filtration to run UV?  I cannot bend down to maintain externals (bad back) so I run 2 internals.


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## PARAGUAY (26 Apr 2022)

You can run a UV as a unit . They typically work like an internal filter going drawing the water through sponge. Downside in a smaller tank like a internal filter they can take space up.


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## Simon Cole (27 Apr 2022)

_Chemical treatments and ecosystem balance _
The treatments that you have used so far have included: flubendazole (NT Labs Anti fluke and wormer), praziquantel, protozin and myxazin.
When a lot of biocides have been used in an aquarium, it is probably a bit harder to control bacterial diseases because protozoa, flagellates, ciliates, rotifers and other life forms that consume or supress pathogenic bacteria are adversely affected. When fish consume infected dead fish it is logical that they should show evidence of cysts in their digestive tracts if they contract the same infection through ingestion. A large population of shrimp and snails may well consume dead infected fish before they can be ingested by vulnerable living fish. Detritus worms and other invertebrates have a positive function in consuming dead infected tissue, and smaller organisms can even consume the pathogenic bacteria themselves. My experience indicates that bee pollen helps to maintain a healthy population of these communities. If these ecosystem communities have been destroyed with biocides then I would put a bit of clean garden topsoil into the aquarium to re-establish them.

_Ultra violet _
When I researched the wattage requirements of UV bulbs I felt that 25 watts or higher might be effective. I do consider using UV in treatment tanks where there is a residual potential (post treatment) for water-bourn infection and I want to create a sterile environment to aid healing, such as with external lesions. However, usually I am sterilising the tank and filter every two days and performing a complete water change, so it doesn't seem advantageous. I never use UV for active infections because in those circumstances I tend towards antibiotics or other treatments that might denature in the presence of UV light, hence it is usually superfluous or counterproductive. Even though I have this equipment for several years, I have never found it that useful. If I had treatment-resistant _Ichthyophthirius multifiliis_ then there would be an obvious application for UV, and similarly I can think of examples of how the technology might be applied to new fish quarantine tanks, breeding systems, and to benefit species that are sensitive to alternative chemical treatments. I would feel uncomfortable using UV in an aquarium ecosystem because it could damage beneficial microbes that are mitigating the prevalence of pathogens.

_Diet _
I think it is transmission through consumption which is causing infection in the digestive tract. In healthy digestive tracts there is a balance of different microbes and a gut lining which protects the fish from disease. The same thing applies to gum disease in humans: if people use too much chlorhexidine digluconate mouthwash then this is known to cause significantly worse gum disease because there are not enough good microbes supressing the infectious ones. For fish, the first thing I will do is to improve the diet and replace existing food that could be the original vector of infection. I would almost go so far as to suggest that the preservatives within and quality of certain commercial foods is what creates the conditions for disease. There have also been growing number of severe outbreaks of disease in farmed salmon. Much of this is marked unfit for human consumption, but there is little guarantee that dead diseased fish called "morts" do not make their way into processed fish food, potentially causing disease incidence in aquarium fish. I have seen videos of piles of dead disease-ridden salmon removed from enclosures and stacked by the side of them. There were several high profile break-ins by animal rights activists in Scotland filming these conditions which shocked me and prompted me to reduce fish meal from my aquarium fish food as a precaution. Also, we have noticed on more than one occasion that contaminated decomposing frozen foods can cause gastric infections in fish, especially Corydoras. I don't have much to say on the matter except that those tiny pouches of frozen food that people have sold me will often smell rank, and I have observed them defrosted on arrival at local fish shops. I prefer to feed live foods. I currently give my fish about 50% worm, 30% insect, 10% vegetable and 10% processed food. I am looking for a balanced natural diet and find that the right fish food is the single best way of avoiding or mitigating disease. Worms are underrated in my opinion. You can gut load them with a highly nutritious vitamin and mineral rich diet and they will pass these biological molecules up the food chain to fish. They also have an excellent fat and protein content. To me it seems logical that the slime coat on certain worms has a very reasonable balance of natural microbes that benefits the digestive tract of fish. Furthermore, the glycoproteins that make up the slime coat on worms may have similar protective properties inside fish digestive tracts. I would look to culture Grindal worms, California Blackworms and white worms. Finely chopped small brandling earthworms _Eisenia fetida_ are can be a good alternative if you purge them of what they have consumed, or if their diet has been soil and leaf matter as opposed to waste feedstocks.

_Decontamination _
There are ways to decontaminate your aquarium after the fish have been removed using potassium permanganate. Since you have already nuked a lot of beneficial fauna with the chemicals that you have used, there is no disadvantage to removing the fish and sterilising the aquarium using this chemical and there are also several advantages that I could think of over UV.

_Bacterial disease in fish_
So I am hinting that your fish might have a gastric bacterial infection that is being transmitted by consumption. I am not going to confirm that it is TB, _mycobacterium_ or anything that we can label yet. When I encountered severe TB many years in the past, I observed rapid mortality, symptoms of acute septicaemia, and exploding fish that would disintegrate. In those severe cases, water-bourn or contact-transmitted infections usually show as lesions on the outside body of the fish, gill damage etc and there is not a long period of senescence. When it is a gastric bacterial infection you will often see reddened or swollen areas above the anal fin in Corydoras and it is obvious where the infection is localised. There are a wide variety of pharmaceutical antibiotics that you could try, but in order to do so, you need to follow a course of dosing and ensure that the pharmaceutical antibiotic is not released into sewerage or the environment. The protocols for using pharmaceutical antibiotics in aquariums should be quite strict. You should follow the full course duration. You should destroy the pharmaceutical antibiotics in any water that you remove from the treatment tank using potassium permanganate or a suitable alternative. You should avoid formulated fish foods because they are extensively banned and have dire environmental consequences. As has been mentioned, TB is a zoonotic disease that can kill humans. The last thing we want is a pharmaceutical antibiotic-resistant disease outbreak in your home then sweeping through God's own county. If you fancy giving pharmaceutical antibiotics a try then this is only really done in a controlled environment like a sterile treatment tank. Some fish will recover, others will not. Personally, I do not see any merits in this approach. I suspect it is not a very severe form of TB if it is this disease, and you need good certainty of the diagnosis and benefits of treatment before you proceed with pharmaceuticals. Conversely, I cannot envision a fast fix using any number of chemical antibacterial treatments. I stopped using conventional shop-bought treatments completely because they never worked and only caused excessive fish mortality, and the toxicity of many treatments stunned me; inhumane.

Antimicrobial environments can be created naturally. Indian almond leaves have a wide variety of antimicrobial compounds and have an established orthodoxy in treating sick fish. Whether they have any benefits with relation to gastric bacterial infection is anybody's guess. I would have thought you best bet is to enable the fish to recover naturally and be more proactive in quarantining sick or diseased fish. I have recovered fish from gastric bacterial disease but it takes many months and there is usually a high mortality rate to be expected. That is why many people suggest euthanasia.


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

Simon, thanks for this detailed response.  I will deal with it in sections.
FROZEN FOOD, CORYS.
This is one point I have given a lot of thought to.
I have a range of frozen foods which I am using on other tanks to condition fish.  I also grow my own daphnia, indoors in a tank, fed mostly on green water, small amounts of powdered spirulina. 
I have a batch of snail food made up thus: pureed Brussels sprouts, repashy soilent green, calcium carbonate, gelatine.  Cut into squares and frozen.  I put this in for my applesnails (pomacea diffusa?).  However, every single fish makes a beeline for this.  They all had some twice a week.  I was surprised the cories were on it too, didn't seem like their thing.  Bristlenose love it.  I havent fed it for 10 days as I started to suspect it.  I had 12 cory 6 Venezuela 6 panda.  The panda were quite small and with hindsight should have grown them on in their own tank...but didn't.  From January I lost a cory a week, all the panda ones first.  Then 4 Venezuela.   2 remain.  (Relevant because of your mention of stomach bacteria?)  The bristlenose are healthy, no fatalities whatsoever.  These are mostly juvenile and I wanted to move these out to a separate breeding tank, but I'm loathe to move anything now during the deaths.
I have had UV a week now.  Lost a platy yesterday,  no external signs, but just after water change. He just died suddenly, was swimming slightly irregularly for less than 5 minutes. Then died.  Fished him out, looked completely clean, no lesions, no clue whatsoever.  Didn't look emaciated.
Now not sure what to feed.  I have 3 other tanks.  No deaths.  Nothing from the death tank goes in there.  Own nets, separate food.
Now don't know what to feed.  I am culturing microworms for my breeding projects.   Do you consider them a suitable food?


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

Simon...Disinfectation and decontamination.
This kind of goes against a lot of my fishkeeping principles.  It's a fully planted 200L.  Has 2 internal filters.  The largest a juwel biofilter has been running 3 years, the smaller one U4,  5 month.  Isn't decontamination pointless unless you deal with filter media?  But then, you end up with no mature media.  what the hell do you do with existing stock?  Still quite a few fish left.


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

Simon, Bacterial disease in fish...acute septicaemia....lesions...Gill damage.
Not seen any of this.  I don't go out to work, I have health problems,  and spend a large part of my day seated next to my 200L.  I see fish going down, they swim irregularly or hide.  But I cannot think of one of the deaths with any marks.  No red patches which may indicate septicaemia.  Not seen any swollen abdomen, pop eye, protruding scales.  The first panda cory I lost had a nipped fin.  But unfortunately some of the other corys were part consumed before I got to them.   I hadn't suspected MB then.  I blamed the fact that I hadn't quarantined the cory.  Now I am very quick.  If any fish is swimming irregularly, I monitor them.  If this occurs near bedtime that fish goes in my largest netbreeder to observe, so no predation.  I have been sterilising my nets and netbreeders in Milton sterilising fluid.  But apparently this isn't enough, Walstad says bleach doesn't kill it.  I am  now using different nets to different tanks, each has its own. Kept separate.


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

I do realise I cannot just watch and do nothing, but taking apart the tank...in practical terms...how?

Filters...


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

shangman said:


> It could be either, sometimes it seems fish catch things after a stressful event (like moving tanks) which suppresses the immune system enough for something already living relatively inertly in the tank or in the fish to take over.
> 
> Symptoms like stringy poop and thinness imply a stomach parasite of some sort, so I would treat for worms with Esha NDX first and see how that goes. I have been recommended Esha Optima before by a fish vet to help get up fish's immune system, soi would treat with that too. I would also feed more live food if possible to help with their health.
> 
> There is also a possibility of fishTB, but it has many symptoms so it's often on a list of possible illnesses (thinness, stringy poop, dying one after another). FishTB can be caught by people putting their hands in the tank and is apparently painful, so while you are working out what is afflicting your aquarium, you shouldn't share equipment between tanks(it can spread this way), and you must not put your hand in the tank if it has any sort of cut or scratch on it, and ideally wear gloves.


The vet thing.  How do you start this off?  Do you take a corpse to the vet or a living fish?


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## shangman (3 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Simon, Bacterial disease in fish...acute septicaemia....lesions...Gill damage.
> Not seen any of this.  I don't go out to work, I have health problems,  and spend a large part of my day seated next to my 200L.  I see fish going down, they swim irregularly or hide.  But I cannot think of one of the deaths with any marks.  No red patches which may indicate septicaemia.  Not seen any swollen abdomen, pop eye, protruding scales.  The first panda cory I lost had a nipped fin.  But unfortunately some of the other corys were part consumed before I got to them.   I hadn't suspected MB then.  I blamed the fact that I hadn't quarantined the cory.  Now I am very quick.  If any fish is swimming irregularly, I monitor them.  If this occurs near bedtime that fish goes in my largest netbreeder to observe, so no predation.  I have been sterilising my nets and netbreeders in Milton sterilising fluid.  But apparently this isn't enough, Walstad says bleach doesn't kill it.  I am  now using different nets to different tanks, each has its own. Kept separate.


Some of my sick fish did have lesions, red and white patches, gill damage, dropsy and popeye, but others died with no symptoms at all. It depends on the types of fish attacked I think, and how virulent the disease is. There are several types of fish TB and some are worse and faster than others. I still think there is a chance your tank doesn't have fishTB as the fish don't have all the symptoms.

Bleach does kill mycobacterium, but it needs a strong dose with a day of contact. As my fish had so many nasty symptoms and were all acting very shy and not eating food much, I decided to euthanise, destroy all organics in the tank and bleach everything thoroughly. I have the recipe for the beach cleaning in my journal. 



peaches said:


> The vet thing.  How do you start this off?  Do you take a corpse to the vet or a living fish?


I contacted the London Fish Vet by email. We had a phone call which cost £35 for half an hour, she didn't think it was myco but I did so I insisted on a test for it anyway which is a histopathology. 

The vet didn't do the histopathology, she prepared the fish and sent them off to the lab, after I delivered the fish to her directly  alive as I thought she'd do a better job of it, but there was an option that she sends me a kit to preserve the fish and then I could send directly to the lab. The vet did a scrape on the fish for free just before she euthanised them, which showed the fish had some trichodina parasites.

It cost £134 for the histopathology, sending over two small fish. It costs more of the fish are bigger. I got the results back within a week, and it confirmed fishTB via granulomas in the fish (basically tumours).


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

shangman said:


> Some of my sick fish did have lesions, red and white patches, gill damage, dropsy and popeye, but others died with no symptoms at all. It depends on the types of fish attacked I think, and how virulent the disease is. There are several types of fish TB and some are worse and faster than others. I still think there is a chance your tank doesn't have fishTB as the fish don't have all the symptoms.
> 
> Bleach does kill mycobacterium, but it needs a strong dose with a day of contact. As my fish had so many nasty symptoms and were all acting very shy and not eating food much, I decided to euthanise, destroy all organics in the tank and bleach everything thoroughly. I have the recipe for the beach cleaning in my journal.
> 
> ...


Thankyou.  I have thought of asking my local vet who cares for our dog, as they might do fish (I know the family of one of the vets and they keep fish).  I wish I had kept yesterdays corpse as it was literally unmarked and in really good condition.  Its getting hard sitting looking at the fish thinking which is next.


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## shangman (3 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Thankyou.  I have thought of asking my local vet who cares for our dog, as they might do fish (I know the family of one of the vets and they keep fish).  I wish I had kept yesterdays corpse as it was literally unmarked and in really good condition.  Its getting hard sitting looking at the fish thinking which is next.


It's worth trying, maybe they can send the fish off to the lab, the vet did a scrape but not the histopathology themselves. Don't beat yourself up about the dead fish yesterday, for the histopathology the fish needs to be very freshly dead and then preserved in formalin immediately so it is best to do it with a just  euthanised fish. Personally I waited until a fish had symptoms and then sent them off for best results.


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## Simon Cole (3 May 2022)

@peaches  - I am so sorry that I missed your post. Please use the @ symbol to get me.
I would love to try and help you and at least give my opinion.

I have had the exact same issue a few years ago, which started with newly-purchased Panda corydoras (_Corydoras panda_) and spread to other fish. I put it down as _Aeromonas, _and in my case it was probably triggered by contaminated frozen bloodworm and initiated due to the fact that the fish had a weak immune system. I would place a bet that the treatments used in aquarium fish farming either damage the microbial balance inside this particular species or work in such a way as to make them more vulnerable to digestive tract infections. My diary reveals that I did use isostatically-balanced aquarium salt (even though they are thought to prefer lower salt concentrations in the wild) and this was fine. I tried Interpet Anti Fungus and Fin Rot 100ml (number 8) which contains phenoxyethanol first (I was quite naïve back then ) in a sterile, highly-aerated, quarantine tank, also feeding a decent flake food: the results were catastrophic. I cannot advise people enough to avoid phenoxyethanol. I then tried a parasite and worm treatment and saw no changes, before finally trying EHSA 2000. I do not think that these treatments did very much if anything at all, but EHSA 2000 is well respected and may have helped, but it's not ideal for shrimp and snails due to the copper content. Over a few more weeks the fish gradually recovered and the disease disappeared for good. If I had lots of fish then I would opt for doxycycline in a controlled treatment tank because it works well for me and there are studies supporting my findings. For your situation, I might not bother to set up a treatment tank. You could look into other commercially-available treatments if you feel that it is likely to be _Aeromonas_; I think there are a few around and they should be far cheaper, possibly more effective and readily available.



peaches said:


> I am culturing microworms for my breeding projects. Do you consider them a suitable food?


Yes - primarily I use Grindal worms for recovery after I have completed the dosed treatment.


peaches said:


> Isn't decontamination pointless unless you deal with filter media? But then, you end up with no mature media. what the hell do you do with existing stock?


Existing stock go into a bucket and have to put up with it for a day. The water gets changed before they are put back. If you go for that option, I support the dosage concentrations of potassium permanganate recommended here. I do not think it is that necessary because I think of _Aeromonas _as an opportunistic infection, but if you feel that it is too abundant to avoid disease reoccurrence, then you could either do the tank and ignore the filter, or do both. I cannot say whether it is necessary because I do not know, but it is something I would consider for infections like columnaris _Flavobacterium columnare_  (when I have uncertainty and am planning on reintroducing fish from their treatment tank and back into the previous aquarium).


peaches said:


> health problems


Some _aeromonas_ is zoonotic and can be transmitted to humans. Wash hands with soap and wear gloves if you have cuts. It is usually treatable in humans, but I wanted to mention just in case so that you are aware.


peaches said:


> taking apart the tank...in practical terms...how?


That might not be necessary if the abundance of the pathogen in the aquarium lowers sufficiently to reduce disease, or it disappears. Potassium permanganate as a decontaminant is non-destructive to plants and hardscape, but it may stain rocks for a few days if you have one that reacts. It may affect microbial communities, but plants do most of the work (Darrel's "headline news") mediating nutrient levels and bio-adsorption of other organic molecules, so you might be able to get away with this. I wouldn't bother personally... but then again, would I... if I knew it was aeronomas and could spread elsewhere... given how much of a problem it now is??? ...not sure. 


shangman said:


> I still think there is a chance your tank doesn't have fishTB as the fish don't have all the symptoms.


Those are my thoughts too.


shangman said:


> It cost £134 for the histopathology


Balanced against the costs of treatment, you could probably order and get delivered: a new quarantine tank, pump, air stone, tubing, new food and pharmaceutical medication for that price, and still have enough for a booze-up down the local 🍺.


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> @peaches  - I am so sorry that I missed your post. Please use the @ symbol to get me.
> I would love to try and help you and at least give my opinion.
> 
> I have had the exact same issue a few years ago, which started with newly-purchased Panda corydoras (_Corydoras panda_) and spread to other fish. I put it down as _Aeromonas, _and in my case it was probably triggered by contaminated frozen bloodworm and initiated due to the fact that the fish had a weak immune system. I would place a bet that the treatments used in aquarium fish farming either damage the microbial balance inside this particular species or work in such a way as to make them more vulnerable to digestive tract infections. My diary reveals that I did use isostatically-balanced aquarium salt (even though they are thought to prefer lower salt concentrations in the wild) and this was fine. I tried Interpet Anti Fungus and Fin Rot 100ml (number 8) which contains phenoxyethanol first (I was quite naïve back then ) in a sterile, highly-aerated, quarantine tank, also feeding a decent flake food: the results were catastrophic. I cannot advise people enough to avoid phenoxyethanol. I then tried a parasite and worm treatment and saw no changes, before finally trying EHSA 2000. I do not think that these treatments did very much if anything at all, but EHSA 2000 is well respected and may have helped, but it's not ideal for shrimp and snails due to the copper content. Over a few more weeks the fish gradually recovered and the disease disappeared for good. If I had lots of fish then I would opt for doxycycline in a controlled treatment tank because it works well for me and there are studies supporting my findings. For your situation, I might not bother to set up a treatment tank. You could look into other commercially-available treatments if you feel that it is likely to be _Aeromonas_; I think there are a few around and they should be far cheaper, possibly more effective and readily available.
> ...


@Simon Cole
Right.  I have treated the tank several times over the past few months.  With Esha 2000, Myxazin, Protozin, 2 different wormers: flubendazole and praziquantel.  Obviously when you have a chain of individual deaths you keep having different theories.  My head is spinning a bit.  The last treatment I messed up, it was the flubendazole.   I took my applesnails out, kept for a week in a plastic tank.  Did 50% water changes, put carbon in filter, returned snails ... it's killed them.  The stink led me to this.  I think I have to strip the tank down as there are dead  MTS in substrate.  (Yes I know its a right mess)
So , tomorrow,  plan B
New QT tank.  Put stock in.
I will dump the substrate buy new.
Can the plants treated with  permanganate and my wood etc
What shall I do with filters?
I can buy a new mature sponge filter from tropco and then I can clear out the media.  Or did I misunderstand that?  
I'm off to research Aeromonas.   Thanks.


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## peaches (3 May 2022)

Still can't decide what to do about filters.


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## xZaiox (3 May 2022)

Hi peaches,
I think Simon has given good general advice, but honestly I really don't think parasites are that uncommon in fish, I've dealt with so many that I now pre-medicate fish in quarantine in order to stop takeovers in the main tank. The fact is a lot of fish are wild caught, and we have all seen fish eat eachothers poop in aquariums, they aren't exactly sanitary creatures, and it's easy for parasites to spread this way.

Check out this link - 11.2. White Poop

I've had lots of success treating internal parasites with Metronidazole by using Seachem's 'Metroplex' (if you go this route make sure to get their product 'Focus' too in order to bind the medication more effectively). In instances where Metronidazole hasn't worked, I've then switched to Fenbendazole (from Panacur-C for dogs), and this has worked for my fish.

Forgive me if you have commented this already (I only skim-read the posts), but from the list of medications you've provided, it sounds like you've been water-dosing? Generally with internal parasites, you want medication in the food, as it goes straight to the parasites. A benefit of dosing in the food also means that friendly bacteria in the tank are unaffected.

I personally wouldn't worry about fish TB yet, from my understanding the bacteria is present in most aquariums already, and infections of this don't usually kill quickly at all. Symptoms listed under fish TB such as sunken belly and various bodily deformities can also occur as a result of internal parasites.

You have said that your fish "swim irregularly and hide", in my experience these can also be symptoms of internal parasites. Fish are generally good at hiding sickness from other fish, after all, showing weakness in the wild will often result in death. So if a fish is at the point of hiding, it is usually because they really aren't feeling well. This in combination with white stringy poop is definitely something I would treat for. Clear stringy poop can sometimes be empty fecal casts if a fish hasn't been eating, but if the fish are eating and also have white/clear stringy poop, I would personally start metronidazole in the food. The medications you listed that you tried aren't effective against hexamita/capillaria.

Hopefully this helps


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## xZaiox (3 May 2022)

peaches said:


> I can buy a new mature sponge filter from tropco and then I can clear out the media.


Just saw this comment - I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on this forum (if I'm not then can a mod please just delete this comment?), but I would HIGHLY discourage this. When I was new to fish keeping, I went to tropco in-person and bought fish without checking their health (I was inexperienced and assumed the fish would be healthy), and they were absolutely infested with ich, had internal parasites and I also suspect gill flukes. A few years later, after necessarily becoming more familiar with fish diseases, I decided to go back and inspect their tanks. They had dead fish in nearly every tank, there was ich and white poop absolutely everywhere.

I would personally advise just staying away from this company, their standards are not high.


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## Simon Cole (3 May 2022)

Yes  - diluted potassium permanganate at an appropriate concentration is idea for decontaminating rocks and wood, especially in a bowl in the sink. There are plenty of other decontamination options that you might prefer, like boiling wood or baking the rocks in an oven. I have used a range of different chemicals for this over the years too, but an appropriate dilution of potassium permanganate is what I currently tend towards using the most often. For internal filters, you could dunk them into the same bowl and it does the same job. This is best done with synthetic foam and nothing that will oxidise strongly like cotton or hemp. For external filters, you could wipe them with the solution in the same way that people dress wounds using the same chemical; you could use bit of kitchen sponge. I would be careful not to stain myself or other surfaces, so butyl gloves are quite useful. It is a powerful oxidising agent and is worth looking at safety data sheets before you do too much with it. If it is powder or granular form, then you could store it in a safe location like a sealed tub in the garage, appropriately labelled, and take additional precautions not to breath it in or make skin contact, especially on your eyes. The diluted solution is often used as a human medical treatment in the correct concentration, and it is even used to purify drinking water in extreme survival situations, again at the correct concentration. When I have stained my fingers, it did me no harm, but it is worth being aware of this and to keep clothing away. I can see 10 grams for £3 with free delivery online. You could also get pre-diluted measures. You could use a colour index to estimate the dosage, or if you have sensitive scales, then you could mix a stock solution using deionised water (e.g. RO) and keep diluting it down until you get the desired concentration. It is usually safe to flush away in sewerage. It usually takes a while to dissolve in crystalline form but helps if you shake the bottle.

External filters work like a "pump in a bucket", and as Darrel once pointed out:

_"...the bacteria we thought were essential for cycling don't actually occur in aquarium filters_
_If you have plenty of plants (and some with the aerial advantage) you can use them both to improve water quality and as an indication of when to add fertilisers._
_"Plant/microbe biofiltration" is much more efficient than "microbe only" biofiltration."_
Considering the extensive discussions we get on the value of filter media, I am led to presume that they have no real benefit if you have enough plants present, and if you don't because you are replanting, then you're probably going to wait for the tank to cycle first.

Regarding my comment on _decontaminate your aquarium after the fish have been removed using potassium permanganate. _Please allow me to clarify that a person doing this could follow the following method:

a)   remove the livestock,​b)   add potassium permanganate at the recommended concentrations to the existing aquarium water,​c)   leave it alone for a suitable duration (over this the duration lots of the potassium permanganate will become oxidised and the aquarium water should end up with potassium and manganate ions),​d)   change the water anyway to reduce any residual concentration to levels acceptable for the aquarium livestock,​e)   replace the livestock and check that they look happy,​f)   job is done, time for a cup of tea,​g)   plants are generally assumed to be unaffected in any significant way by the process, and long or medium-term impacts upon rocks, substrates and filter media are assumed to be unlikely,​h)   nothing actually needs to be removed during this process except things that could stain permanently and the livestock (some people leave them in, this is irrelevant if they are relocated during step (a) to a treatment tank,​i)   never add chemicals or treatments to potassium permanganate, whether diluted, undiluted, crystalline, or during treatment. Point (d) I generally assume to be safe with conditioned water.​j)   points (a) to (i) are what I do personally, and do not mean that this method is intended as advice or guidance that you should feel obliged to follow - it's up to others to judge the merit of this method.​
If you have used two different wormers, and the use of a third is recommended then I'm not going to disagree simply because there is diversity of opinion. I'm not a professional fish doctor and I simply do not know what will work; what I do know about wormers is that treatment resistance has increased over time. If there is more saliency following one possible solution then I would do whatever approach makes the most sense to me at the time. I find the possibility that there could be ich at Tropco deeply worrying because it does not need to be like that if they follow good husbandry protocols.


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

I will try it.  I have liquid potassium permanganate in stock as I bought it to do a dip on my plants following anubias rot.  It's the same permanganate they use to dip koi.  I was concerned that by letting the permanganate come into contact with filters  i would kill off the archaea or bacteria.  The i fo below is from tropco.  I bought several to set up breeder tanks and checked daily for a fortnight to find no problems with ammonia nitrite or nitrate.  The first one was so successful,  I repeated it again.  Thankfully the breeder tanks are kept completely separate from my display tank.


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Hi peaches,
> I think Simon has given good general advice, but honestly I really don't think parasites are that uncommon in fish, I've dealt with so many that I now pre-medicate fish in quarantine in order to stop takeovers in the main tank. The fact is a lot of fish are wild caught, and we have all seen fish eat eachothers poop in aquariums, they aren't exactly sanitary creatures, and it's easy for parasites to spread this way.
> 
> Check out this link - 11.2. White Poop
> ...


Where do you get metronidazole in uk?


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## xZaiox (4 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Where do you get metronidazole in uk?


Since Metronidazole is also an antibiotic, it's usage is restricted in the UK, so it can't be bought over-the-counter. You could get a vet to prescribe it if you were really desperate. I'm from the UK too, and didn't have any difficulties getting it though... _cough_ ebay _cough_


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## Simon Cole (4 May 2022)

You could feed oregano to your fish while you threat them with metronidazole because it might help fish with particular strains of _Aeromonas_.


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Just saw this comment - I don't know if I'm allowed to say this on this forum (if I'm not then can a mod please just delete this comment?), but I would HIGHLY discourage this. When I was new to fish keeping, I went to tropco in-person and bought fish without checking their health (I was inexperienced and assumed the fish would be healthy), and they were absolutely infested with ich, had internal parasites and I also suspect gill flukes. A few years later, after necessarily becoming more familiar with fish diseases, I decided to go back and inspect their tanks. They had dead fish in nearly every tank, there was ich and white poop absolutely everywhere.
> 
> I would personally advise just staying away from this company, their standards are not high.





xZaiox said:


> Since Metronidazole is also an antibiotic, it's usage is restricted in the UK, so it can't be bought over-the-counter. You could get a vet to prescribe it if you were really desperate. I'm from the UK too, and didn't have any difficulties getting it though... _cough_ ebay _cough_


What type of metronidazole?  Is it a tablet @xZalos


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## xZaiox (4 May 2022)

peaches said:


> What type of metronidazole?  Is it a tablet @xZalos


I personally use 'Metroplex' by Seachem, and then I use it with their product 'Focus' - Focus binds the medication to the food so that it substantially reduces losses in the water, that way you know the fish are actually consuming the medication. I initially only bought metroplex, and found a guide online of binding it myself by using agar agar to make a sort of jelly food-paste, but honestly this turned out to be a total disaster, the consistency was way too thick and the fish couldn't/wouldn't eat it 😂 I never was much of a cook...

Focus is very user friendly though, and it's honestly incredibly useful to have lying around, I also use it whenever I want to feed any other medication, such as Fenbendazole.


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

@×zalos
Got metroplex not the other thing. 
Would it be safe made up in repashy?
Or is it safer to treat whole tank as let's just say certain fish are hogs.


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

Simon Cole said:


> You could feed oregano to your fish while you threat them with metronidazole because it might help fish with particular strains of _Aeromonas_.


@Simon Cole got metroplex.  Is it better to treat the tank or food?


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## Simon Cole (4 May 2022)

@xZaiox:


peaches said:


> Is it better to treat the tank or food?


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## xZaiox (4 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Got metroplex not the other thing.
> Would it be safe made up in repashy?
> Or is it safer to treat whole tank as let's just say certain fish are hogs.


I'm not actually sure what repashy is, I just looked it up and it seems like a gel type of food? Medicated feeds such as metronidazole are fine to use with any food, but you generally want to be mindful of actually getting it into the fish, so gel type foods are useful to ensure it holds the medication and gets properly delivered. This is what Seachem's 'focus' achieves, but it can also be done with simple gelatine mixtures or agar agar - I didn't have much success with agar agar, but I know it can be done.


peaches said:


> Is it better to treat the tank or food?


Without a doubt, treat the food. For internal parasites, you really want the medication going straight into the fishes gut. In-fact, in extreme cases (i.e fish wasting away and refusing food with white poop), some people actually dissolve metronidazole in a little bit of tank water and use a pipette to directly inject the solution into the fishes gut. This is obviously not a pleasant experience, but many report it works brilliantly. I would imagine this would be increasingly more difficult with smaller fish though...


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> I'm not actually sure what repashy is, I just looked it up and it seems like a gel type of food? Medicated feeds such as metronidazole are fine to use with any food, but you generally want to be mindful of actually getting it into the fish, so gel type foods are useful to ensure it holds the medication and gets properly delivered. This is what Seachem's 'focus' achieves, but it can also be done with simple gelatine mixtures or agar agar - I didn't have much success with agar agar, but I know it can be done.
> 
> Without a doubt, treat the food. For internal parasites, you really want the medication going straight into the fishes gut. In-fact, in extreme cases (i.e fish wasting away and refusing food with white poop), some people actually dissolve metronidazole in a little bit of tank water and use a pipette to directly inject the solution into the fishes gut. This is obviously not a pleasant experience, but many report it works brilliantly. I would imagine this would be increasingly more difficult with smaller fish though...


Repashy is a food with gelatin, you buy as a powder, mix with hot water and set and cut into pieces.  It's supposed not to mess with water quality if not eaten all at once because of gelatine.  I also have basic gelatine.  I've made up snail jello using it.  I have a new quarantine tank now so just need to set it up and start the process.


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## xZaiox (4 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Repashy is a food with gelatin, you buy as a powder, mix with hot water and set and cut into pieces.  It's supposed not to mess with water quality if not eaten all at once because of gelatine.  I also have basic gelatine.  I've made up snail jello using it.  I have a new quarantine tank now so just need to set it up and start the process.


Ahh, that sounds like it should get the job done then  try to ensure the medication is spread evenly within it. I'm not sure what temperature metronidazole is stable up to, but it would probably be good practice to add it when the mixture is cooling down a bit before it's set.


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## peaches (4 May 2022)

Yes I thought that too.


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## peaches (6 May 2022)

State of play:
The Roma 200 fish are now in a 105 L quarantine tank.  The Roma has had substrate removed, it is full of water and potassium permanganate ,  the bottle says 10ml to 200L so that's what I'm doing  the wood and stones and filters are all in there.  I don't know if the potassium permanganate kills the filter.  But I have some nitrico on order.

I have some Metroplex in the house, for adding to fish food but I've lost it!!!  I could scream!  I'm mixing it with repashy.


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## peaches (6 May 2022)

Food made up with metroplex and they have started it.  The food made up more than I thought, they will be taking it for a few days.


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## xZaiox (6 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Food made up with metroplex and they have started it.  The food made up more than I thought, they will be taking it for a few days.


By the way, just so you know, metroplex can be fed for upto like 3 weeks or so - often fully treating internal parasites can require a bit of patience. That being said, if the medication is going to work, then you'll often see positive changes in appetite, poop colour and behaviour fairly quickly (like within a week).

As an example, I'm currently treating one of my dwarf ram cichlids for internal parasites with metroplex, he's quite a feisty little character and usually spends most of the day harassing the other dwarf rams and sparring with my dwarf gourami. Over the last few weeks or so, he started to become quite skittish and started hiding all the time behind plants, I then noticed he had white stringy poop and he's now not eating properly (chews food but spits it back out). I started treating with metroplex about 3 or 4 days ago, and he already has much more of an appetite, he's no longer hiding and he is now back to attacking my other fish 

If the medication appears to be working, then I personally keep using it for a little bit longer after their poop goes back to normal colour. It's quite a gentle medication, and whilst you obviously don't want to expose your fish to it for more time than is necessary, I find internal parasites can have an annoying tendency to come back if they aren't properly killed off in the first place.

Best of luck with the medication, I hope your fish respond quickly


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## peaches (7 May 2022)

Yes I saw one or two fish not eating or spitting out some of tge ones I lost.  They all really go for the repashy though.  Poop looking good.  They are fine in the 105 litre,   I put new substrate down in the 200 and replanted my crypts, it looks awful now but I know from experience it will come together.  The roots were incredibly long and keep poking up through substrate.   Maybe should have trimmed them?


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## peaches (10 May 2022)

THANKS EVERYONE THIS SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED,
No more deaths, touches wood.


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## shangman (10 May 2022)

Fantastic!!!!!


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## xZaiox (10 May 2022)

peaches said:


> THANKS EVERYONE THIS SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED,
> No more deaths, touches wood.


Happy to hear this - does the behaviour of your fish seemed to have improved? I.e less hiding or skittish behaviour? Good appetites? Is the poop colour going back to normal?


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## jaypeecee (10 May 2022)

shangman said:


> Diana Walstad wrote an article about it here with her experiences - Mycobacteriosis in Aquarium Fish


Hi @shangman 

Many thanks for the above link to Diana Walstad's article. Very informative.

JPC


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## peaches (11 May 2022)

xZaiox said:


> Happy to hear this - does the behaviour of your fish seemed to have improved? I.e less hiding or skittish behaviour? Good appetites? Is the poop colour going back to normal?


Well, it's hard to say about behaviour as there is still some hiding.  Poop is back to normal.  Today will be the last day on metroplex.  Half the fish will go back to their usual tank which has been thoroughly cleaned.


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## xZaiox (11 May 2022)

peaches said:


> Well, it's hard to say about behaviour as there is still some hiding.  Poop is back to normal.  Today will be the last day on metroplex.  Half the fish will go back to their usual tank which has been thoroughly cleaned.


Hmm, yeah tough to say, they might just be unsettled due to not being in their main tank. Hopefully they stay nice and healthy, but for future reference, I find fish behaviour is an excellent indicator of Hexamita, it's known to cause fish to hide/isolate and become more skittish, eventually refusing food. Many fish with the parasite will go to a certain spot in the tank (often at the bottom, by the substrate, or hidden in plants) and just stay there. Certain schooling/shoaling species like tetras may also drive away the sick fish. It can often be easier to spot these symptoms than the white poop.

If the symptoms come back in the future then I'd probably recommend a longer course of treatment - internal parasites can be stubborn sometimes. Best of luck with their health


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## peaches (11 May 2022)

I think its because its a bare bottom quarantine tank  they are used to fully planted.  I did put a couple of urns in with anubias.


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## peaches (22 May 2022)

They have been back in their old tank for well over a week now.  No illness or death, but two fish, both female, have had white stringy poop.  Don't appear ill.  I am puzzled.


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## peaches (22 May 2022)

Trying Esha NDX which is levamisole.  They have been wormed before,  but trying a different wormer.


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## xZaiox (23 May 2022)

peaches said:


> They have been back in their old tank for well over a week now.  No illness or death, but two fish, both female, have had white stringy poop.  Don't appear ill.  I am puzzled.


Hi peaches,

You posted on the 6th that the food was made up, and said on the 11th that you were treating for that last day, so I assume that they were treated for 5-6 days? You said that after this time, their poop was back to normal colour. I personally would continue with Metroplex, especially since you noted an improvement (i.e the medication was likely working). As I said before, this medication can be used for up to 3 weeks at a time. It's a gentle medication, and often internal parasites can take a while to kill off. The medication won't have any effect on the parasite eggs, so it has to be dosed long enough that the eggs hatch and get exposed.


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## peaches (25 May 2022)

Yes 5 or 6 days.  I can make up some more.  Got a trip coming up though, need to give it some more thought.


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