# fungus with DSM



## Andrew Butler (7 Dec 2018)

So it's not quite an algae issue but I've no idea which is the best category for this. 

I started my dry start method just over a week ago which you can see in the link below, I've started having some fungus growing on the base of my Manzanita. The aquarium is covered with cling film I have been opening it up for around half an hour per day and have also given the plants the slightest misting of water before I cover it all back up again as it's very dry in my room.

https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/lonely-tree-in-a-summer-meadow.55955/

Does anyone have any answers as to what might help me combat the fungus on my wood without damaging the plants? Yesterday I just carefully scraped it away and this morning it had returned, only worse so I have done the same and scraped it away but expect things to have reappeared again tomorrow. 

Andrew


----------



## Edvet (7 Dec 2018)

Just keep removing it every few days, it will disapear when flooded
or:


----------



## goldscapes (8 Dec 2018)

Here’s a quote from the interweb:

“When you sprinkle ground *cinnamon* on soil, it kills fungi. Take advantage of *cinnamon* fungicide control by making a *cinnamon* spray for *plants*. Stir some *cinnamon* powder into warm *water* and allow it to steep overnight. Strain the liquid through a coffee filter and put the results into a spray bottle.”

I’ve never tried it but James Wong talks about It’s anti-fungal properties here:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/jan/31/drug-therapy-for-plants

There are plenty of examples on the web of cinnamon bark being used in aquariums so I can’t see it having any detrimental effects.


----------



## Zeus. (8 Dec 2018)

I got loads on mine during the DSM, much worse than your little sprinkle But it will get worse OFC, I increased the airing times but mine didn't start till quite a few weeks into the DSM, as long as it's not on the plants it's not a big issue IMO. Left it airing all day at times but carpet was doing well with good roots.
You using a 12hr photoperiod with max intensity? I did.

As Ed says once flooded not a problem and amanos love it. Also had some blue green algae during my DSM in areas, in fact still have it but it under control in patches.


----------



## alto (9 Dec 2018)

Your soil looks quite wet for a dry start so may be encouraging the fungus 

If possible drain the water level down - this is always the challenge with misting as water can begin to accumulate 

In general as long as mould etc is confined to wood, you should be fine 
(there are instances where it suddenly and rapidly migrates to plants - HC mostly as I recall - so keep a close eye on it)


----------



## zozo (9 Dec 2018)

Rule of thumb, if you like to feed them you can add anything that molds.. 

After flooding scoop'm off.. Most trerrarium shops also sell starter cultures..


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Dec 2018)

goldscapes said:


> There are plenty of examples on the web of cinnamon bark being used in aquariums so I can’t see it having any detrimental effects.


I will have to have a read up 



Zeus. said:


> I got loads on mine during the DSM, much worse than your little sprinkle But it will get worse OFC, I increased the airing times but mine didn't start till quite a few weeks into the DSM, as long as it's not on the plants it's not a big issue IMO. Left it airing all day at times but carpet was doing well with good roots.
> You using a 12hr photoperiod with max intensity? I did.
> 
> As Ed says once flooded not a problem and amanos love it. Also had some blue green algae during my DSM in areas, in fact still have it but it under control in patches.


Oh, it has already started getting worse! 
I'm going to leave it to air for a bit longer today then just give it a quick squirting later to moisten the leaves.
I'm on a 12 hour max power photoperiod, yes. 
When it's flooded I guess things *could* be less of a problem, on the other hand it could prove just as bad and also push my soil about and ruin my 'scape so I'm going to have to do some thinking.



alto said:


> Your soil looks quite wet for a dry start so may be encouraging the fungus
> 
> If possible drain the water level down - this is always the challenge with misting as water can begin to accumulate
> 
> ...


I think the extra water is from where I got the higher areas wet through and also where I have disturbed the soil scraping about. I don't think it is as wet as it looks in the photo, a bit like you can't really see the 'furry stuff'
To reply to both you and @Zeus; at the moment it's not on any plants *but *it is heading for the soil with the 'furry stuff' which is a worry as that will spread quickly.



zozo said:


> Rule of thumb, if you like to feed them you can add anything that molds..
> 
> After flooding scoop'm off.. Most trerrarium shops also sell starter cultures..


You think this could be the answer - any experience of this?

At the moment I've got a few different options and really unsure which one to take:

Carry on scraping it off daily? The 'furry stuff' is starting to make its way to the soil although this doesn't really show in photos.
Try and carefully remove the wood and soil around it, returning the wood later after soaking like I should of in the first place? This would remove the wood and hopefully the mould but might prove tricky, especially with the volcano mineral beneath the soil - I could make a barrier from some ribbed plastic sheet pushed in to stop it all falling in on itself assuming I can fight the volcano mineral and get to the bottom.
Fill the aquarium and abandon the DSM? As mentioned before things *could* be less of a problem, on the other hand it could prove just as bad and also push my soil about and ruin my 'scape.
@zozo idea about the springtails? Would need to look at this more, maybe someone could fill me in.
@goldscapes idea about the cinnamon? Again I would need to look into this a bit more.
Please feel free to give me your thoughts


----------



## zozo (10 Dec 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> You think this could be the answer - any experience of this?



Not first hand, but i have terrarium keeping friends that have always used them. Springtails eat molt and obviously if molt is present,they have food and will reproduce. Since a dry start is very simmular to terrarium conditions, it definitively wont hurt to introduce springtails for the time beeing. If it is any good, depends a little bit on the planed periode, do you plan a dry start for 6 weeks or 4 months, obviously the longer you plan the dry start the more effective a springtail population can be of any help to control molt development.

There are other ways to prevent molt from spreading to much, with sufficient ventilation, humidty and temperatur controll. Molt thrives in cool and wet invironment, preferably in the dark and even more in bad ventilated invironments.

Having sufficient air humidity, doesn't mean that all needs to be dripping wet for the biggest part of the day. And for a dry start to be succesfull an air humidity between 80 - 90% is sufficient. Over 90% humidity actualy already is a tad much and a sign for unsufficient ventilation.

For doing a dry start having a small digital hygro/temp meter isn't a bad investment for a start it will help you to control these parameters. Once you have done a few, you'll learn by experience and will see it by the looks of it. No need for extra spraying as long as humidity is high enough.

Since molt likes to grow when it's cool and dark and since it's a dry start with no worry of algae and plants have all the CO² in abundancy you can without problems increase light periode and intensity. Creating a longer warm day and a shorter cool night. Even if you want to making it a 18 hour day periode will not hurt the plants, on the contrary, light and co² is their main source to speed up healthy and bushy growth.

Simply the tank might look dry to the tough, but if your hygro meter is telling you around 90% air humidity you have very little to worry about. Than spraying a little once a day and give the excess water a change to vent out again keeps air moving, prevents fungus spores to settle and thrive.

Ofcourse i also experienced types of wood that simply molt as mad, especialy softer woods that soak a lot of humidity like to do that. But in general the harder types of DW used for aqaurium it aint such a big issue if not kept too wet all the time.

By the looks of the picture, i think it is just that, constantly too wet..


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> do you plan a dry start for 6 weeks or 4 months


I was going to just wait until it had filled in but I have recently learnt I'm off into hospital sometime in the new year so won't be at home for a few weeks. 



zozo said:


> For doing a dry start having a small digital hygro/temp meter isn't a bad investment for a start it will help you to control these parameters. Once you have done a few, you'll learn by experience and will see it by the looks of it. No need for extra spraying as long as humidity is high enough.


Do you mean like this one?  I took on board something @foxfish said in this thread so thought there is only one way to find out - it has only just arrived and gone in though.
There is no cover on at the moment so I will let it dry out a bit today and see how things look.


zozo said:


> if your hygro meter is telling you around 90% air humidity


At present it is showing 62% but I put that down to the cover being off - what is the ideal you think I'm looking for?


 



zozo said:


> sufficient ventilation


How do you define 'sufficient ventilation'? - I was going by opening it up for around half hour per day and again it seems that @foxfish doesn't seem to air his daily and still has success.

I'm not so sure I am presently having problems with mould on the plants and it is only originating as fungus from the wood so I thought 'what have I got to loose by trying the cinnamon approach?' I think the answer to that is not a lot. If it doesn't work out then I can remove the surrounding soil, plants and the wood if needs be. I've probably been a bit heavy on the Cinnamon but i can brush some away easily enough and I've also mixed some up in some water to try and get on the areas I couldn't sprinkle any on.

I welcome other peoples ideas, opinions and suggestions as always.


----------



## zozo (10 Dec 2018)

Any hygro meter will do, but in digital they come very small can be a bit easier to use in a smaller tank with drystart. Stick 'm to the glass with some double sided tape. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Digit...h=item2a6b4ccd62:g:zzMAAOSwm6VbrsqX:rk:2:pf:0

But the one you have now is ok as well, the bigger ones have a high low display, that can also come in handy, you can see the highest and the lowest measured during the 24 hour cycle. If you reset it each morning than you have a daily monitor of the highest humidity during lights off and the lowest during lights on or other way around.

The humidity is your marker for sufficient ventilation, example at lights on at 85% could be well enough for most plants and at lights out it might go up to 90% and over. The warmth of the lights and covered with cling film and a little opening will make moist air rise and vent out.. That can be distracting, one would rather suspect it be dryer at lights out, but in too wet it usualy isn't, because there is less warmth and there for less natural air flow. Than it becomes cooler stagnant air and wet at night, ideal fungus habitat. 

It is diffucult to give a textbook schedule to keep and on how t procede, it doesn't excist and it isn't written in stone.. It's something you learn over time with experience and monitoring. Every setup is slightly different, light, temperatur, volume, location in the house etc.. After a while it's called getting green fingers. As said after you've done it a few times, by experience you get a feel for it and see the humidty by the gloss on the plants the shape of the leaves (changes long before any damage is done, learn to see it), the color of the wood or substrate. Etc. But at frst the hygrometer is a good help it tells you at what level you are at and gives a number to maintain steady. It needs to be just enough and not more than you need.. More than you need is too (often soaking) wet.. 


If you are at a good constant climate fungus will not develop or develop much less and wear itself out in a short periode.

Like this little setup, still in development it looks pretty dry, but it isn't..  It contains mostly aqauruim plants growing emersed it is months old and never had a speck of molt.. I maybe spray a little once every other day, sometimes not for a few days.. Don't ask me it's average humidity i don't know but it looks perfect and estimated at about 90%.





In theory it is said for many bog plants 90% humidity at least is required for optimal grow conditions. It doesn't mean they die over night beeing at 80%. It just aint optimal.. Anyway to get Molt under control, is getting humidity down and as evenly as possible diveded over the complete volume and or ventilation up.

Your pictures tell me, your substrate is soaking wet, and the wood is soaking it all up at that level.. Hence the mold is growing right there on the wood and substrate and likely not higher up on the wood, because it much dryer..


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Dec 2018)

zozo said:


> Your pictures tell me, your substrate is soaking wet, and the wood is soaking it all up at that level.. Hence the mold is growing right there on the wood and substrate and likely not higher up on the wood, because it much dryer..


I have the top open still and will see how it looks later.
You say my substrate is soaking wet and I am not trying to argue with you but surely I need the soil to be damp throughout?
It is not puddling at the lower levels or anywhere else so I'm unsure if some of it is trick of the eye from the lights.
If the fungus was originating elsewhere then I can see why you are saying the soil is too wet (which may still be the case) but as the wood is the root of the problem, at least in my opinion then it is this I need to do something about I think.
I think the wood is only wet upto that level as it is where it has been sprayed and it would naturally draw water up from the substrate like a straw being so dry.
As I say the fungus is only on the wood (aside from the little bit working its way onto the substrate) and infact below substrate it is showing the same on the wood but the wood very much seems the root of the problem in my opinion.

Reading that back it sounds very argumentative and nonsensical which wasn't the idea but you might get the gist of what I am trying to say.


----------



## goldscapes (10 Dec 2018)

> I've probably been a bit heavy on the Cinnamon



You may have inadvertently just invented the Cinnamon Start Method, good luck!


----------



## Edvet (10 Dec 2018)

Stop worrying about it, it's the same as fungus that appears when the wood is submerged, you just wait that out too. Just wipe it away every now and then.


----------



## ian_m (10 Dec 2018)

Hydrogen peroxide dripped on will kill it and any left over/missing the fungus will quickly decompose.


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Dec 2018)

goldscapes said:


> You may have inadvertently just invented the Cinnamon Start Method, good luck!


we will see........watch this space 


Edvet said:


> Stop worrying about it, it's the same as fungus that appears when the wood is submerged, you just wait that out too. Just wipe it away every now and then


After seeing pictures of it taking peoples' tanks over I'd like to get on top of it before it starts to spread.


ian_m said:


> Hydrogen peroxide dripped on will kill it and any left over/missing the fungus will quickly decompose.


I looked into this and it had mixed reports, I will see how the cinnamon does and may consider it if that fails.

I covered it back over around 90 minutes ago and humidity now sits at 89%


----------



## foxfish (10 Dec 2018)

Have you ever seen this guys sealed bottle garden....
No spraying, no watering, no airing for 40 years!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...garden-thriving-40-years-fresh-air-water.html


----------



## Andrew Butler (10 Dec 2018)

foxfish said:


> Have you ever seen this guys sealed bottle garden....


Do you mean this one I was just looking at only moments ago?!?!


----------



## Andrew Butler (11 Dec 2018)

Quick morning update; The fungus was not showing on the places covered with cinnamon yesterday, the cinnamon I sprinkled yesterday was still looking dry but there was a little bit of fungus on the underside of the wood which didn't have any cinnamon on so I have given it a quick spray with some water and tried to 'throw' some on. Trying to apply some disolved in water using a pipette was unsuccessful and I didn't want to use a spray bottle when I thought this would work. *Photo upload is playing up so I can't show you.* Let's hope this continues to work but I'm not getting too excited just yet. 

Humidity was sat comfortably at 99% this morning.


----------



## Andrew Butler (14 Dec 2018)

It seems the 'cinnamon start method' is a no go, for me at least. 
Next I think I'm probably looking to go down the road of scrape what I can of the the cinnamon and Fungus off and flood it; you learn by doing as they say. 
I now just need to hope my substrate stays something like in place with some gentle filtration on it  more to the point even just the water  - I was half relying upon the carpet to keep things in place. 

A quick snap to show you how things stand now


----------



## goldscapes (14 Dec 2018)

Sorry it didn’t work out for you but thanks for trying and sharing your experiences for the benefit of others


----------



## Andrew Butler (14 Dec 2018)

goldscapes said:


> Sorry it didn’t work out for you but thanks for trying and sharing your experiences for the benefit of others


I'd nothing to lose and it's a widespread thing in gardening so thought it could work.
The whole DSM is a learning curve for me; one which I think is going on the backburner for now!


----------



## dw1305 (14 Dec 2018)

Hi all, 





Andrew Butler said:


> I'd nothing to lose and it's a widespread thing in gardening so thought it could work.


I wouldn't worry about the fungus, it will disappear eventually. You might get different ones grow when the tank is flooded, but again it won't last long.

I think the reason the cinnamon didn't work is probably because the fungal hyphae are in the woody tissue, and the obvious fungi  you can see is just the fruiting body. The cinnamon might inhibit the growth of fungal hyphae, if it was in contact with it, but it isn't, the hyphae is ramifying through the wood. 

The good news is that the fungi that are capable of degrading the lignin in heart wood belong to the Basidiomycota (bracket fungi, mushrooms and toadstools) and your fungi definitely isn't from that family. 

You often get a flush of fungi when you re-wet dry wood, I assume that they are feeding on any remaining sugars from residual sap etc. and they will die off when that is exhausted. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Andrew Butler (14 Dec 2018)

dw1305 said:


> I wouldn't worry about the fungus, it will disappear eventually.


It is now a bit too late; I have dug the wood out, cleaned it off and re-buried it. It was starting to spread onto the tops of surrounding plants. 
I'm sure I will still got some fungus with the tank full. I just need to hope the tank fills okay now.


----------



## Zeus. (14 Dec 2018)

AS does appear to look very wet IMO or is it just out of focus


----------



## Andrew Butler (14 Dec 2018)

Zeus. said:


> does appear to look very wet IMO


When I first got the soil wet it had only had just enough water to wet it all through when I was looking at the sides; of course the water table is going to seep to a level so I was quite careful to wet the higher areas first.
I don't think it was as wet as it looks in the photos but the wood would have gotten wet regardless and I would have eventually had problems.
I've filled the tank now anyway so I now need to hope it holds shape and fungus isn't too much of an issue.


----------

