# Yellow Ram Belly up...



## Madhav (24 Sep 2018)

I was given a bunch of fish by a friend, all in planted tank(mostly ferns) with co2 injection as he decided to go with different type of fish.
from his place to my place, 40min journey, carried in A3 sized bag full of water with an air pump, portable.
reached the destination successfully, no casualty.
after reaching home and when I moved all the fish from pail to a quarantine tank, noticed Ram is swimming oddly on its side. 
So I moved all other fish to another tank and left this ram alone in 10-12 cm water, drained all the water assuming its swim bladder/ constipation issue, Temperature is around 29-30 deg C. air stone running 24hrs.

3 days no food, daily change water 80-90%. this morning only I saw it back to normal for a while but when it saw me and tried to swim away, again same belly up and struggling to swim normally.
fish look healthy eyes, gills, body, fins.., no signs of physical damage at all..

how long this might take to cure? my discus recovered in two days when we overfed the tank some time back.


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (24 Sep 2018)

It may be physical damage from the move which would take a while to heal... it also may not heal just to set expectations. In order to 'progress' a food related issue try feeding bloodworm or cooked chopped pea (with the casing removed) this will hopefully 'flush things out.


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## Madhav (25 Sep 2018)

this cute little guy survived...Day 4
may be still under stress, monitoring closely with daily water changes.
will start feeding from today, slowly..


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## Madhav (25 Sep 2018)

Matt @ ScapeEasy said:


> It may be physical damage from the move which would take a while to heal... it also may not heal just to set expectations. In order to 'progress' a food related issue try feeding bloodworm or cooked chopped pea (with the casing removed) this will hopefully 'flush things out.


thanks, will feed some bits of cooked peas this evening. fortunately ram can maintain its buoyancy and swim normally.
escaped the guilt narrowly. 

is gobbling too much air can cause this?


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## alto (25 Sep 2018)

Odd as it seems, fish usually transport best in plastic bags with 1/3 water, 2/3 air - just like the fish shops 

Depending on the mix of fish, individual bagging is often more comfortable (less stressful) for the fish 

Fortunately he seems to be recovering, looks like a “balloon” ram which tend to not fair so well as their normal shaped cousins 
I doubt he “gobbled too much air” - that’s more of a goldfish behaviour - though I’m not certain it’s really all that accurate either ..... it’s common to see goldfish at the surface apparently gulping air, yet few end up with any issue




Madhav said:


> left this ram alone in 10-12 cm water, drained all the water assuming its swim bladder/ constipation issue, Temperature is around 29-30 deg C. air stone running 24hrs


Sounds as if you did everything right  - the reduced water level (& pressure) does seem to help

You can also add a bit of epsom salt, start at 1tsp/10gal and gradually increase to 1T/10gal (note depending on species, you can begin at 1T/10 gal etc)

Frozen/live Brine shrimp, Daphnia etc are good foods to reintroduce, feed lightly & alternate day at first
I’d keep fish isolated for a couple weeks until he’s active & eating normally again


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2018)

Hi all, 





Madhav said:


> this cute little guy survived...Day 4
> may be still under stress,





alto said:


> looks like a “balloon” ram which tend to not fair so well as their normal shaped cousins


Rams are generally fairly unhealthy, Gold Rams are generally in poorer health than Blue Rams, and Balloon Rams are generally in poorer health than Gold Rams. 

As @alto says your fish is a Gold Balloon Ram, which means that he is going to need a lot of TLC, and even then has a pretty poor prognosis. 

cheers Darrel


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## Parablennius (25 Sep 2018)

Sorry Guys, slightly off-topic, but why the hell would you want a distorted, miscoloured fish, which can barely swim as nature intended in the first place and which is doomed pretty much from the off ???  If people didn't buy them they wouldn't be produced. Me? I like to see fish as they should be. A healthy, well conditioned fish, even a lowly stickleback, needs no help to look good. I'd much rather see a fish as you'd find it in nature, looking and behaving as it should.
Sorry for the rant, but every time I leave an aquatic garden centre I feel the same as there are usually at least some examples of God-awful, "enhanced" fish that can barely move, balloon Rams being a prime example. A can of worms, I know, each to their own, I suppose!! Is it still possible to buy Rams, or many other species, that haven't been messed with, stretched fins, stronger colours, distorted body?
Cheers


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## dw1305 (25 Sep 2018)

Hi all, 





Parablennius said:


> Me? I like to see fish as they should be. A healthy, well conditioned fish, even a lowly stickleback, needs no help to look good


I prefer "wild type" fish as well.

cheers Darrel


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## Tim Harrison (25 Sep 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I prefer "wild type" fish as well.
> 
> cheers Darrel


Me too...


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## john dory (25 Sep 2018)

So..what happens to balloon rams,to make them particularly unhealthy?


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## alto (25 Sep 2018)

Parablennius said:


> Sorry Guys, slightly off-topic, but why the hell would you want a distorted, miscoloured fish, which can barely swim as nature intended in the first place and which is doomed pretty much from the off ???  If people didn't buy them they wouldn't be produced. Me? I like to see fish as they should be. A healthy, well conditioned fish, even a lowly stickleback, needs no help to look good. I'd much rather see a fish as you'd find it in nature, looking and behaving as it should.
> Sorry for the rant, but every time I leave an aquatic garden centre I feel the same as there are usually at least some examples of God-awful, "enhanced" fish that can barely move, balloon Rams being a prime example. A can of worms, I know, each to their own, I suppose!! Is it still possible to buy Rams, or many other species, that haven't been messed with, stretched fins, stronger colours, distorted body?
> Cheers



These sorts of “short body” “high fin” “balloon” “long fin” “albino” modified fish prevail on the commercial fish lists 
If you’re hoping to bring in plain boring wild type rams ..... they are often absent from multiple farm lists - or when  ordered, what arrives in the box is a bag of “balloon” rams 

Other problems among M ramirezi is obviously hybrid fish - judging by body shape & demeanour, possibly a Bolivian ram cross - and the _surprise_ arrival of giant sized (obviously hormone treated) fish 

Customers asking after particular fish, in person & by email, can significantly impact fish orders 
If dealing with a chain store, written requests/commentary is more effective


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## alto (25 Sep 2018)

john dory said:


> So..what happens to balloon rams,to make them particularly unhealthy?


Their internal organs are often misshapen & pressed together 
Many shipments of “balloon” rams display bright colours associated with mature, breeding age fish ... you might guess how this is accomplished (as with certain medications, these treatments are associated with kidney, liver, reproductive damage that shortens the lifespan)


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## john dory (25 Sep 2018)

Not good


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## Tim Harrison (25 Sep 2018)

Frankly, I find the whole genetically modified and extreme selective breeding of organisms for nothing more than pleasure abhorrent...not least on ethical and ecological grounds. On a humane level I don't think it's acceptable to support an industry that often peddles misery and suffering. How is it okay to create a transgenic organism and then trademark it for profit, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GloFish


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## Edvet (25 Sep 2018)

http://projectpiaba.org/what-we-do/objectives/


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## john dory (25 Sep 2018)

Eye opening.


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## alto (25 Sep 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> Frankly, I find the whole genetically modified and extreme selective breeding of organisms for nothing more than pleasure abhorrent...not least on ethical and ecological grounds. On a humane level I don't think it's acceptable to support an industry that often peddles misery and suffering. How is okay to create a transgenic organism and then trademark it for profit, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GloFish


Unfortunately the ban on these has recently been lifted & they’re legal for trade here now

These fish are now also available through several Asian fish farms


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## alto (25 Sep 2018)

Apologies @Madhav for the direction this topic has taken


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## Madhav (26 Sep 2018)

Parablennius said:


> Sorry Guys, slightly off-topic, but why the hell would you want a distorted, miscoloured fish, which can barely swim as nature intended in the first place and which is doomed pretty much from the off ???  If people didn't buy them they wouldn't be produced. Me? I like to see fish as they should be. A healthy, well conditioned fish, even a lowly stickleback, needs no help to look good. I'd much rather see a fish as you'd find it in nature, looking and behaving as it should.
> Sorry for the rant, but every time I leave an aquatic garden centre I feel the same as there are usually at least some examples of God-awful, "enhanced" fish that can barely move, balloon Rams being a prime example. A can of worms, I know, each to their own, I suppose!! Is it still possible to buy Rams, or many other species, that haven't been messed with, stretched fins, stronger colours, distorted body?
> Cheers



"Money",  one word answer.

to make customers feel excited and buy more, LFS must offer some thing new and crazy instead of same boring fish(I am still excited to see my years old same fish)
I think the business reached a point of no return especially in some Asian countries where control is not so strict.
Dyed body, tattooed, silicon injected head etc are just some, leave the gold fish variants alone.
kids are the major contributor for this chain to grow longer and wider I suspect, from my observation.
these modified fish cant survive long in the hands of in experienced fish keepers/beginners so prompting them to buy again and again..





alto said:


> Apologies @Madhav for the direction this topic has taken


Don't be apologetic, any way mission accomplished, Ram survived and recovering, thanks to UKAPS gurus 
any thing I gain from this post is a bonus for me.


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## rebel (26 Sep 2018)

That ram seriously looks like a baby Angel to me. stubby little fella.


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## PARAGUAY (26 Sep 2018)

Fresh live daphnia is good food to give for swim bladder providing the fish is taking food of course


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## Parablennius (26 Sep 2018)

alto said:


> Apologies @Madhav for the direction this topic has taken


Me too, did I say a can of worms?
Cheers


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