# Wanted: A reliable CO2 system for large planted tanks



## wolfewill (10 Feb 2015)

I am in the process of up grading my CO2 system on my 300 gallon, heavily planted, aquarium. The system I’ve been using is a collection of assorted parts which have all been reasonably successful on smaller tanks, but are proving unmanageable on the larger tank. I am considering purchasing a complete kit (regulator, bubble counter (s), diffuser(s), reactors, etc.), and am wondering if anyone has done this before on a large tank. If so, I would like to know what system people have tried (names, suppliers), and how pleased you are with the system you’ve installed. I am not interested in DIY systems. I want a completely off the shelf, professional quality system for a large, heavily planted tank.

So my problem is that the CO2 is not dissolving in the water prior to getting to the tank so there is misting or microbubbles throughout the tank when the system is on. Also, the Milwaukee kit isn’t reliable: It doesn’t always start up when the upper pH threshold is reached (I have to unplug the solenoid and replug it into the pH controller). Thirdly, the bubble counters, although brand new (eBay variety), seem to be plugged sometimes and don’t start up when the others are working well (this changes from day to day, and week to week). Fourthly (is that a word?), the bubble count drops over several days and has to be reset after only a few days or a week.

Presently I have a Milwaukee regulator/solenoid kit, with a set of bubble counters (3), and three UP Aqua in-line diffusers. One diffuser is before an Eheim 1500XL filter (used as a reactor), one is before an Eheim 2215 (functioning as a polishing filter and as a reactor), and the third one is after a second Eheim 1500XL filter (I have a UV sterilizer after this second 1500XL, and until I hard line the filtration system have no room to install it before the filter). I am using an American Marine Inc pH controller (set point is presently pH 5.3 ± 0.1 units). The substrate is ADA Africana which buffers the water to about 5.8, and reduces the KH to ≤1.0̊; the GH is raised to 4̊GH with Equilibrium; and I use the PPS dosing strategy and test my parameters to maintain a [NO3] of 10 ppm, and a [PO4] of 1.0.

The system functions well when it’s working properly, plant growth is good (reasonable pearling), and algae issues are minimal (probably fluctuating [CO2]). Livestock are doing extremely well and I’m generally pleased with the set up except for the reliability of the CO2 system. I want to be able to be away for a while without worrying that everything is failing.


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## Edvet (10 Feb 2015)

For a large tank i advice DIY large reactor, basicaly a pvc pipe driven by  a large pump or filter in which the co2 enters at the top and has a large dwelling time in the slower flowing water. Lot's of examples can be found, here on the forum and on the web. For me these are the best way to get CO2 in large tanks.
The other problem will be distribution. I reccomend a large spraybar over the entire length of the tank  with enough oomph te get the jets of spray to the other side of the tank. All other methods will keep you struggling.

Just my 2€cts


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## Julian (10 Feb 2015)

wolfewill said:


> Thirdly, the bubble counters, although brand new (eBay variety), seem to be plugged sometimes and don’t start up when the others are working well (this changes from day to day, and week to week). Fourthly (is that a word?), the bubble count drops over several days and has to be reset after only a few days or a week.



If you have long CO2 tubing, or the incorrect type of tube (meant for air line) it can cause these symptoms, as well as leaks. Shorter tube or the type of bubble counter that screws directly onto the needle valve are your options here. Too many check valves on the CO2 line, faulty regulator or near depleted CO2 are other possible causes.

The affect substrate has on pH/kh degrades over time, from what I have read.


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## Andy Thurston (10 Feb 2015)

I found that water in the co2 hose causes big problems when the gas comes on the next day
Good check valves, short pipes and no leaks will solve these startup problems.
Two good diy reactors 
Splitter with good quality needle valves
If you fancy diy...
Its not that hard and you could add co2 to a swimming pool with one of these



 
And if you don't something like this should do
http://www.co2art.co.uk/products/pr...nt=828667273&gclid=CN7c7tSt2MMCFczMtAod9CQA_g


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## Sacha (11 Feb 2015)

The question is... Are you really prepared to change 150 gallons of water per week?


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## ian_m (11 Feb 2015)

wolfewill said:


> Thirdly, the bubble counters, although brand new (eBay variety), seem to be plugged sometimes and don’t start up when the others are working well (this changes from day to day, and week to week). Fourthly (is that a word?), the bubble count drops over several days and has to be reset after only a few days or a week


This is a symptom of excessive lengths of CO2 tubing (proper CO2 proof tubing I assume) pressurising and depressurising causing variable bubble rates. I had exactly the same uncontrollable bubble rates when I had a long length of tube from bubble counter to diffuser. Reducing to shortest length possible, wonderfully controllable and repeatable bubble rate.

Also your other problem is due to the word "Ebay" and "bubble counter". In my experience the cheap one just cause issues, leaking joints, cracking plastic, failing seals all leading to CO2 issues. Been using the more expensive JBL ones for years now, no problem. It has lock nuts for the CO2 tube and contains a decent volume of water, thus lasts months maybe a year before simply topping up by opening the bottle. Easy.

CO2 variability can also be caused by leaks. I had horrendous CO2 control issues, thought couldn't be a leak as I have checked so many times, but when my 2Kg CO2 (into 180litre tank) lasted 60days rather than 100days must be a leak. Dunked as much CO2 equipment as possible into a bucket of water, wiggled tubes etc and found I could induce a leak from cheap Ebay bubble counter pipe connections. Replaced all piping, JBL bubble counter, expensive one way valve and CO2 rate back to 20gr per day (100 days per 2Kg) every day 100% repeatable.



wolfewill said:


> I am using an American Marine Inc pH controller


Unfortunately these only make CO2 control harder and in almost 100% of case causes "algae by distraction". You will spend all your time staring at the pH reading making the super bold assumption that pH is related to CO2 levels, it is slightly related and related to kH and to phases of the moon and colour of underwear, and ignore the fact your plants are dying and you are doing a great job farming algae. In summary don't use.


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## wolfewill (11 Feb 2015)

Edvet said:


> For a large tank i advice DIY large reactor, basicaly a pvc pipe driven by  a large pump or filter in which the co2 enters at the top and has a large dwelling time in the slower flowing water. Lot's of examples can be found, here on the forum and on the web. For me these are the best way to get CO2 in large tanks.
> The other problem will be distribution. I reccomend a large spraybar over the entire length of the tank  with enough oomph te get the jets of spray to the other side of the tank. All other methods will keep you struggling.



I definitely agree about the use of spray bars, but I've got glass lilly outflow pipe for show on now (http://www.aquainspiration.com/npro...AME=goa&PSIZE=BOF17L&PTYPE=Filter Accessories). I will replace them with Eheim installation kit spray bars for regular use. As for the DIY route, I'm determined this isn't going to be a home project. I don't have the time or the interest, and I'm doing this for someone else. I want to install it and know it's going to work as advertised for a long time.


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## wolfewill (11 Feb 2015)

Julian said:


> If you have long CO2 tubing, or the incorrect type of tube (meant for air line) it can cause these symptoms, as well as leaks. Shorter tube or the type of bubble counter that screws directly onto the needle valve are your options here. Too many check valves on the CO2 line, faulty regulator or near depleted CO2 are other possible causes.



Julian, you may have something here: I have a lot of hose, and I'm using air line hose for the CO2. I also have air line check valves which I'm replacing with Dennerle cvs as soon as I can get some (not easy to get in Canada, eh).

[/quote]The affect substrate has on pH/kh degrades over time, from what I have read.[/quote]

And, also, I have been using Africana for several years now and it does loose it's cation exchange capacity after a while but it's still doing very well after two and a half years. Fluval Substratum doesn't last more than a few months, by the way. But the Africana is almost as new (resting pH is still below 6.0)


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## wolfewill (11 Feb 2015)

Sacha said:


> The question is... Are you really prepared to change 150 gallons of water per week?


Sacha, why would I need to do 50% water changes each week? I'm using the PPS system and do water changes when one is needed. Here in this part of Canada the ground is so cold that the cold tap water is about 46 degrees F. I don't have enough hot water in my hot water tank to do a water change all at once without dropping the temperature in the tank to a stressful level. The EI method is fine if for small tanks or for those with only a few tanks. I have 14 on the go at the moment, plus the 300, and just don't have the time to do water changes each week. I can check water parameters weekly, do tank maintenance and trimming in about 3 hours. If I did water changes as well I'd need to add another 2 hours just to fill up all the tanks (I must admit, I do do this in the summer, but the tap water is much warmer which makes it possible then).


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## wolfewill (11 Feb 2015)

ian_m said:


> This is a symptom of excessive lengths of CO2 tubing....... In my experience the cheap one just cause issues, leaking joints, cracking plastic, failing seals all leading to CO2 issues. Been using the more expensive JBL ones for years now, no problem. It has lock nuts for the CO2 tube and contains a decent volume of water, thus lasts months maybe a year before simply topping up by opening the bottle. Easy.
> CO2 variability can also be caused by leaks. I had horrendous CO2 control issues, thought couldn't be a leak as I have checked so many times, but when my 2Kg CO2 (into 180litre tank) lasted 60days rather than 100days must be a leak. Dunked as much CO2 equipment as possible into a bucket of water, wiggled tubes etc and found I could induce a leak from cheap Ebay bubble counter pipe connections. Replaced all piping, JBL bubble counter, expensive one way valve and CO2 rate back to 20gr per day (100 days per 2Kg) every day 100% repeatable.



Yes, I'm replacing my CO2 kit and bubble counters. I think you're probably right on that. And, leaking is not something I've checked but the length of tubing to the diffusers is rather long. I'm going to hard pipe the filtration system and reduce the length of tubing at the same time. And, I have purchased Dennerle check valve and CO2 appropriate tubing but have yet to receive it.

Wow, this is great advise. Thanks to all of you. I am in the process of up grading now and would very much like to thank everyone for their input. I am looking at a higher quality CO2 regulator/solenoid kit (possibly GLA here in North America, can't get CO2Art here), bubble counters, CO2 tubing and reactors (possibly two CarbonDoser EXT5000). Cheers to all.


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## Julian (11 Feb 2015)

We look forward to the pictures!


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## wolfewill (13 Feb 2015)

Pictures? Yah, sure. Go here: http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/wolfewill17/library/My 300 gallon Planted Tank?sort=4&page=1


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## Canadian Eric (13 Feb 2015)

The length of tubing can also be used to your benefit. If you create enough slack in the line so that the tubing creates a sort of long drip loop, the water will have a harder time fighting gravity to get back up to the critical components. Having several check valves that do not use internal metal springs, which are prone to failing IME, are also a good idea. For this reason I use all plastic check valves. Also, switching from the JBL old style bubble counter, which sits too close to the regulator for my liking, to the inline bubble counter helps IME. A lot of folks in North America now use the inline now as opposed to the old JBL milwaukee style.


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## wolfewill (14 Feb 2015)

Canadian Eric said:


> The length of tubing can also be used to your benefit. If you create enough slack in the line so that the tubing creates a sort of long drip loop, the water will have a harder time fighting gravity to get back up to the critical components. Having several check valves that do not use internal metal springs, which are prone to failing IME, are also a good idea. For this reason I use all plastic check valves. Also, switching from the JBL old style bubble counter, which sits too close to the regulator for my liking, to the inline bubble counter helps IME. A lot of folks in North America now use the inline now as opposed to the old JBL milwaukee style.


Several have suggested the idea of having the check valve positioned in a 'head down' position, and it sounds like a good idea to me. I'm going to replace all my cvs with CO2 purpose built cvs, Dennerle and GLA products are ordered (I have 14 tanks on the go at the moment). But what do you mean by in-line bubble counters? Can you name some products? And what is wrong with the bubble counter being too close to the regulator? I've never heard that complaint before?


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## Julian (14 Feb 2015)

Best bubble counter money can buy, £9.


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## Canadian Eric (14 Feb 2015)

That one ^ and here are some others that work great....I've tossed out all but one JBL style for these






 
GLA has its own really nice inline BC too.
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## wolfewill (16 Feb 2015)

THanks for this.


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