# Help re White Spot



## Stu1407 (1 Jan 2019)

Hi Guys,

I wonder if you can help me here. For the first time in donkeys years I have an outbreak of white spot. Looking at the advice on here I ordered some Esha Exit and 2000 which I haven't received yet. In the limited info I have read it suggests using for 3 days.

How does this fit with the life cycle of the parasite which can be anything up to two weeks or does the medication remain in the tank until removed with charcoal and water changes.

My first inclination was actually Paraguard but I was a bit concerned re Seachems advice on its own website about suitability to use in a planted tank.

Any comments or advice welcome.

Thanks
Stu


----------



## Tim Harrison (1 Jan 2019)

Not sure how it works around the ich lifecycle but it works nonetheless. I guess the trophont stage must last less than 3 days (during which the parasite is less vulnerable to medication) and the medication eradicates the parasite during the remaining tomont and theront phases, when it's at its most vulnerable...
If it's just Ich your fish are suffering there is no need to use 2000 as well, unless it persists or causes a secondary infection. It's also a good idea to give some thought to the possible cause as well so future outbreaks can be avoided.
Don't forget to take in to account the capacity of your filter when calculating the dose.


----------



## Stu1407 (1 Jan 2019)

Thanks for the info. I already have an idea how the outbreak happened and I won't be making the same mistake twice.


----------



## alto (1 Jan 2019)

Duration of treatment seems to depend on fish species 
- some have much better apparent immunity to ich, some are seemingly much more capable of mounting a suitable immune response, while for some species it seems a death sentence regardless of medications etc - unless you manage to catch the disease in very early stages; note that even a single external “spot” means LOADS of internal parasites. 
If you monitor fish very closely, you will usually see a change in behaviour some time before the first “spot” (but of course the behaviour change may have other underlying causes as well)

AND

Ich strain - Seachem suggests 1 month as that’s what they’ve seen a lot of in recent years .... I was sceptical until I somehow managed to bring some ich home despite no new fish in several months   
But I did add plants from a supposed Plant Only tank
And I somehow spread the disease between two tanks before seeing the first spot in Tank 1, a couple days later first spots appeared in Tank 2

I lost a lot of fish over the next *THREE* *months*, this strain was medication resistant 
After 6 weeks, I finally followed Seachem’s Metronidazole protocols 
4 weeks later there were finally no new “spots” 
I continued treatment for another 2 weeks

Of course by then all shrimp were lost as well from the continued medication exposure - the Metronidazole quickly ended those remaining


----------



## alto (1 Jan 2019)

Large Daily water changes and wiping down glass and substrate vacuuming definitely helps remove various stages of ich
Then apply medication dose as if Day 1 (again)

Lights off
Increased aeration ie maximize oxygen level in water column 
both help


----------



## tiger15 (1 Jan 2019)

See my recent post on the use of  glutaldehyde to treat ich.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/glutaldehyde-for-ick-treatment.56106/#post-545833

According to one aquaculture study evaulating 10+ treatment methods, malachite green is most effective.  Most remedies at best can only stop spreading of ich by killing off free swimming larvae.  MG can penetrate fish skin and kill off existing ich infection.

Some fish, such as loaches, are more susceptible and are death sentence if not treated early.  It takes at least 2 weeks to root out ich even if symptoms are gone.  There can be low level of infection inside the mouth and gill of fish that you can’t  see, and reappearance of ich is often mistaken as resistant strain or spontaneous outbreak. 

My recommended treatment is to treat the entire tank with MG for the first 3 days to strike ich head on, followed by Glut for next 2 weeks to root out surviving larvae even if symptoms are gone.  Glut is less toxic to fish,  beneficial to plants, and cheaper than MG if you buy the generic.  Large WC will help by physically removing the larvae and reset during MG dosing, but not necessary during Glut dosing because Glut is deactivated in 24 hours. 

In my trial, Glut at 2 ppm daily is effective in stopping the spread of ich, and my fish can tolerate 6 ppm for an hour long dip and probably long term but I haven’t tried out.


----------



## tam (1 Jan 2019)

EshaExit is nice as it's fine for shrimps too, you can extend it to 5 days if needed and water change and restart if still not gone. I've not had it come back. It will dye silicone though.


----------



## Tim Harrison (1 Jan 2019)

tam said:


> It will dye silicone though.


Maybe that's because it contains Malachite Green also. Which would explain how it fits in with the whole life cycle thing. 


tiger15 said:


> MG can penetrate fish skin and kill off existing ich infection.


It kills the parasite in all phases of its life cycle.


----------



## Stu1407 (2 Jan 2019)

Thanks for the help everyone. Much appreciated by me and also my fish.

Stu


----------



## Konsa (2 Jan 2019)

Hi
+1 for esha Exit.
Not very convinced that it kills the parasite in stage 1( on fish) tho.
It may take much longer than 3 days too.Recently used it to treat SAP puffers and it took 3-4 weeks to fully get rid of the ich with temperature increase to arround 30°C for  the last week or so.Dont bump the  temperature right up.A degree or two every few days.
It is good if U can get them to eat some Levimisol medicated food too as this will boost their immune  system and speed up recovery.
Have a look here:
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/puffers-with-white-spot.54703/
Regards Konsa


----------



## tiger15 (2 Jan 2019)

Not sure what  ingredients of Esha Exi contain.  Naming the ingredients is more informative than naming the brand. 

If it contains MG, it will stain the water green.  MG is absorbed in fish tissue rapidly, and will attack ich in all stages, so raising the temp is not necessary.

Rooting out ich is never a fast process, no less than 2 week in IME.  The challenge is to prevent reinfection, because a few unkilled larvae left is sufficient to start all over again if one stops mediation too soon.   Overdosing is a concern because MG is slow in degradation so after 3 day treatment, a large WC is needed to continue dosing.  I once wiped out all fish by continuing daily dosing for a week without WC.


----------



## Stu1407 (2 Jan 2019)

tiger15 said:


> Not sure what  ingredients of Esha Exi contain.  Naming the ingredients is more informative than naming the brand.
> 
> If it contains MG, it will stain the water green.  MG is absorbed in fish tissue rapidly, and will attack ich in all stages, so raising the temp is not necessary.
> 
> Rooting out ich is never a fast process, no less than 2 week in IME.  The challenge is to prevent reinfection, because a few unkilled larvae left is sufficient to start all over again if one stops mediation too soon.   Overdosing is a concern because MG is slow in degradation so after 3 day treatment, a large WC is needed to continue dosing.  I once wiped out all fish by continuing daily dosing for a week without WC.


Not sure what's in it myself yet. It was recommended on here by lots of people. Unfortunately I spotted the problem on New Years Eve so I am waiting for the delivery from Amazon.


----------



## tiger15 (2 Jan 2019)

If it stains the water green, it contains MG.  Not a good idea to wait for mail order delivery.  Ich needs to tackled immediately upon first sign of symptom.  The longer the wait, the more it spreads, and vulnerable  fish, such as loaches, may not survive if treatment is delayed.


----------



## Konsa (2 Jan 2019)

Hi
Here is some info from:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70884-Ingredients-in-Esha-Hexamita

 Esha Exit ACTIVE INGRED: 
diaminoacridine 6.3 mg, veride malachitum 0.31 mg, methylrosanilinii chloridum 0.79 mg, methylthioninii chloridum 3.98 mg ad Aqua. (basically its Acridine, Malachite Green, Meth.Violet, Meth. Blue)

Regards Konsa


----------



## Stu1407 (3 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Here is some info from:
> http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70884-Ingredients-in-Esha-Hexamita
> 
> ...


Thanks Konsa.


----------



## tiger15 (3 Jan 2019)

All ingredients, Acridine, Malachite Green, Meth.Violet, Meth. Blue are fabric dye.  So the fish are dyed with rainbow color.  Methylene Blue, along with MG, is another very effective ich remedy but isn't used much today due to potential impact on biological media.   I believe the cocktail is deadly to ich, but I would use it with caution, do large WC in consecutive dosing to prevent accumulation.


----------



## Konsa (3 Jan 2019)

Hi
I will advice the op to stick to product guide without overgosing.My puffers are probably more sensitive than the fish to be treated and had amano shrimp in the tank too with no negative impact.I was not able to do as much Water changing as I should as the pufffers are stress Nellies.I will advise full doses only on Waterchange days and half for rest of days till about 10 days after U see fish have cleared completely,  wich may be good few weeks untill that happens.In my case while the fish being very greedy ate very wilingly all the time I saw little to no improvement without raised temperature and the thing that really made a huge difference was giving them Levimisol medicated food( big thanks to alto for giving me heads up on that).Saw rapid improvement after that..
Regards Konsa


----------



## Stu1407 (3 Jan 2019)

My tank is 325 litres including the filter so I have stuck rigidly to the product guidance. Fortunately the Esha website has a very clear dosege calculator on it. The tank is an interesting shade of bluey green at the moment but that's starting to fade. Ill keep people posted on progress but it's too early to tell yet.


----------



## Konsa (3 Jan 2019)

Hi
Yes the blue tint will go away.Any white (clear)silicone will get permanently dyed  tho.
Regards Konsa


----------



## Ady34 (23 Jan 2019)

Nightmare, I too am suffering white spot.
Is there a treatment that will not dye silicone and is shrimp safe.
Thanks for any advice.
First time in years I’ve had white spot


----------



## goldscapes (23 Jan 2019)

AquaCare Anti-fungus and White Spot from Maidenhead Aquatics worked for me. It is coloured but at the suggested dose it didn’t noticeably effect the water or stain the silicone.
Amano shrimp were unaffected, I don’t have any cherries.


----------



## Konsa (23 Jan 2019)

Ady34 said:


> Nightmare, I too am suffering white spot.
> Is there a treatment that will not dye silicone and is shrimp safe.
> Thanks for any advice.
> First time in years I’ve had white spot


Hi
Think all ich treatments available in uk will stain silicone due to composition.Metronidazole will clear the ich but I struggled to obtain  it here.Do U have the option for hospital tank.
Regards Konsa


----------



## Ady34 (23 Jan 2019)

Konsa said:


> Hi
> Think all ich treatments available in uk will stain silicone due to composition.Metronidazole will clear the ich but I struggled to obtain  it here.Do U have the option for hospital tank.
> Regards Konsa


I do however catching the fish without destroying the scape will be impossible.
I’m going to get asha exit to treat and hope the minimal silicone remains largely unaffected aesthetically.
I’m devastated that the fish are suffering, I’ve had two jump out over the last two nights and they had gone into hiding after initially being curious....I should have known something was up.
Thanks for the info.
Ady


----------



## Ady34 (23 Jan 2019)

goldscapes said:


> AquaCare Anti-fungus and White Spot from Maidenhead Aquatics worked for me. It is coloured but at the suggested dose it didn’t noticeably effect the water or stain the silicone.
> Amano shrimp were unaffected, I don’t have any cherries.


Thanks goldscapes, I think I’m going to give the esha exit a go unless I can’t obtain it quickly.


----------



## Andrew Butler (23 Jan 2019)

Ady34 said:


> I’m going to get asha exit to treat and hope the minimal silicone remains largely unaffected aesthetically.


From experience it stays that way assuming you have platinum cured silicone.
Unsure what it does to PVC type hose though.

I always keep bottle of Exit and 2000 on hand Amazon is Friday right now, I think complete aquatics is next day and pro-shrimp I know is if you pay the extra but you will need to get order in soon.


----------



## Stu1407 (23 Jan 2019)

I used esha exit and 2000 both available on Amazon. It did clear up the white spot and is recommended by many on here.


----------



## Ady34 (23 Jan 2019)

Stu1407 said:


> I used esha exit and 2000 both available on Amazon. It did clear up the white spot and is recommended by many on here.


Just ordered some, no one near me stocks Esha so will have to wait until Friday unfortunately. No other brands I’m confident of being shrimp safe.
Thanks for the reassurance Stu. How badly did it effect your silicone or do you have black?


----------



## Tim Harrison (23 Jan 2019)

I've used it before, and as far as I can remember it didn't stain my silicon. But just to be on the safe side, I'd dose the tank slowly and in the middle so that it's diluted properly before it comes in to contact with the silicon.


----------



## Ady34 (23 Jan 2019)

Tim Harrison said:


> I've used it before, and as far as I can remember it didn't stain my silicon. But just to be on the safe side, I'd dose the tank slowly and in the middle so that it's diluted properly before it comes in to contact with the silicon.


Good tip Tim


----------



## Marc Davis (23 Jan 2019)

I always get best results with whacking the temperature up to 30 degrees for about 4 days. No chemicals or additives. I've had it twice in the year and a half ive kept fish (always from not quarantining new fish) and thankfully this worked fast both times.


----------



## Andrew Butler (23 Jan 2019)

Ady34 said:


> How badly did it effect your silicone or do you have black?


Mine is platinum cured so translucent; I'm sure I still have a piece and if I can get at it will send you a pic.


----------



## Ady34 (25 Jan 2019)

The treatment arrived promptly yesterday (a day early), however I planned to add it this morning after a water change. When I came home from work last night the fish were much better, with much fewer spots. I thought I would carry out the water change and see how they were tonight as I know it’s a cycle disease. The fish are much better again being much more active with minimal evidence of spots. I’ve read the cycle takes 7 days at 77f, so likely a little longer in my tank at 74f. Can fish battle the disease successfully without treatment if they overcome the stress or am I just awaiting a strong return if I don’t treat? I know this seems like a pointless question as normally you would just treat to be sure but the fish are so much better, I can tell in their behaviour straight away, selfishly I don’t want to add the treatment to my tank if I can avoid it as I really would prefer not to stain the silicone in my optiwhite tank .
Also could the benefits of the chihiros device be a factor, perhaps co2 was a contributing stressor and the additional oxygen has improved conditions??.......


----------



## Andrew Butler (25 Jan 2019)

Ady34 said:


> selfishly I don’t want to add the treatment to my tank if I can avoid it as I really would prefer not to stain the silicone in my optiwhite tank


I had no problems with the silicone in my tank; just the tubing. - photo below.
Personally I would still put treatment in but that's just my opinion.


----------



## akwarium (25 Jan 2019)

stainless treatment: 
1) do large water changes to improve water quality and remove as much of the spores you can. 
2) increase temperature to the upper range of what your fish can handle,  preferable 28-30 degrees Celsius. the parasite does not cope well with higher temperatures. 
3) feed your fish live or good quality frozen food, to improve their overall condition and compensate for higher metabolism .

after 3 or 4 days the symptoms should be gone, and you can slowly bring your tank back to its normal temperature and routine.

always worked for me.


----------



## Konsa (25 Jan 2019)

Hi
The temperature increase will have quite negative impact on the plants if it goes near 30.My buces melted and rest plants were damaged as well when I was treating my puffers for ich but my treatment went for 3-4 weeks.
Regards Konsa


----------



## Geoffrey Rea (25 Jan 2019)

Last ich outbreak (from newly introduced fish) I managed to get rid of by only doing large daily water changes and feeding garlic infused foods over a three week period.

Now, it could be that the improved diet of frozen and pellet food is more important here, or garlic actually does help, or both.

Anyway you cut it, the point is it’s possible to get fish through a period of ich without formaldehyde and malachite green oxalate cocktail.


----------



## Ady34 (26 Jan 2019)

Thanks for the replies, I will monitor the fish and treat if necessary.


----------

