# Water Softener Help



## Angelfishguy99 (18 Feb 2020)

Hi, 

My house has a water softener installed (salt based system) and i am trying to figure out if my outside tap is connected to the system or not. To get a look at the plumbing would require part of the kitchen being removed.

Would a simple water hardness test kit be able to give me the answer? If so can anyone recommend me a test kit to buy?

Or is there another way for me to be able to tell? Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Jason


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## Witcher (18 Feb 2020)

Maybe not a very accurate method, but if splashes/droplets of water leave no deposits of Calcium when dried out it means it's a soft water.


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## dw1305 (18 Feb 2020)

Hi all, 





Angelfishguy99 said:


> i am trying to figure out if my outside tap is connected to the system or not.


Do you know where the "rising main" is? That should give you some idea, if anything spurs off before it gets to the water softener. Our rising main spurs off to the outside tap and drinking water tap, and then into the water softener cupboard.





Angelfishguy99 said:


> Would a simple water hardness test kit be able to give me the answer? If so can anyone recommend me a test kit to buy?


It isn't a test kit, but you can do it by taste, our sodium softened water tastes thick and salty. 

You should definitely have a tap, for drinking water, which uses your original hard water supply?

cheers Darrel


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## ian_m (18 Feb 2020)

My outside tap, cold tap in main kitchen sink (for fish tank filling ), filtered water in main kitchen sink, cold tap in 2nd sink in kitchen as well cold taps in the bathroom(s) are all un-softened water straight from the mains.

I very very much doubt your outside tap will be softened water, as ion exchange softened water is not recommended for watering plants, as well as being a "waste" of softened water.


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## Angelfishguy99 (18 Feb 2020)

Thanks all. 
I will try a taste test when I get home and see if I can notice a difference.
I know most water softeners usually bypass the outside tap but I can't risk that there wasn't a half assed installation so I need to know for certain for my own piece of mind.

I just bought tetra gh/kh test strips. I know that test strips are pretty inaccurate but surely they can give an indication if the water is treated or not compared to our kitchen tap water.

I will do a test as soon as I get home and post the results here.


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## Angelfishguy99 (18 Feb 2020)

Ok so i just done a test,


             Kitchen       Outside Tap
KH            20                20
GH             0                  0
PH             8                  8
Nitrate      25                25
Nitrite        0                  0

So it looks like both are connected to the water softener. Not too sure what i am going to do now


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## Angelfishguy99 (19 Feb 2020)

Think my only option might be to get a plumber in and to move the outside tap connection to before the water softener


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (19 Feb 2020)

Yes, the GH of zero confirms that it’s softened water. The KH is unaffected.

It’s useful to have both outside: softened water for washing cars, and unsoftened for watering the garden.


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## Siege (19 Feb 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Yes, the GH of zero confirms that it’s softened water. The KH is unaffected.
> 
> It’s useful to have both outside: softened water for washing cars, and unsoftened for watering the garden.




Can I ask why would you have a softened tap waster outside for washing cars?

Don’t they add salt which is bad for cars, hence you buy car shampoo and donot use normal washing up liquid?

never had a water softener hence the question?


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## ian_m (19 Feb 2020)

Siege said:


> Don’t they add salt which


No the salt is used to regenerate the ion exchange resin.

The resin removes calcium & magnesium ions from the incoming hard water and swaps them for sodium. Thus your softened water now contains sodium carbonate instead for scale/scum producing calcium/magnesium carbonate. The sodium carbonate does not react with soaps & shampoos, thus you need considerably less soap & shampoo to clean/wash and no scale on taps, no scum lines in bath. However it is not recommended to drink the softened water if you are on a low sodium diet or a baby.

When the resin is exhausted you regenerate it with strong brine (ie salt) solution that swaps out the captured calcium and magnesium back to sodium. The waste water from regeneration contains calcium and magnesium chloride. 

If you test your softened water for chloride you will find none. Thus no salt in softened water.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (20 Feb 2020)

It’s amazing how many people assume that a softener adds the salt to the water! That would be crazy and would result in the water causing accelerated rusting of any steel objects it comes into contact with around the house.

The reason for not using washing-up liquid to wash cars is nothing to do with sodium; it is because washing-up liquid is far too harsh on the paintwork and would strip off any wax that you have previously applied.

Just to add to Ian’s post, the amount of sodium you end up with in the softened water will be below the specified limit for domestic water supplies, except perhaps in areas with the hardest water. So in general the water is perfectly safe to drink, it’s just that it doesn’t taste all that nice. But the taste is emphatically *not* because the water is “salty”. If you go to areas with naturally soft water, it also doesn’t taste as nice as hard water (in my opinion).

Softened water from a softener is not particularly good for fishkeeping, because the sodium ions are not ideal for fish health. In principle, I suppose one could use Potassium chloride as the regenerative agent, which would result in the resin being charged with potassium ions which would then get swapped into your softened water. This would have no negative health effects, and would provide useful plant nutrient. Does anyone know if a softener would work correctly on potassium chloride? Cost might be an issue.


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## ian_m (20 Feb 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Softened water from a softener is not particularly good for fishkeeping, because the sodium ions are not ideal for fish health. In principle, I suppose one could use Potassium chloride as the regenerative agent, which would result in the resin being charged with potassium ions which would then get swapped into your softened water. This would have no negative health effects, and would provide useful plant nutrient. Does anyone know if a softener would work correctly on potassium chloride? Cost might be an issue.


Yes it is perfectly possible to recharge your water softener with potassium chloride, in fact in quite a few US states with "inadequate" sewerage disposal, you are not allowed by law to use sodium chloride to regenerate softeners, due to the sodium load it adds to the waster waste water causing pollution issues. You must use potassium chloride.

Only issue is potassium chloride is many many times more expensive than standard sodium chloride (about 5 times the price), as well as being less potent in recharging (about 1/3 less), which means you need more (weight wise) to recharge your softener. I pay £4 for 8Kg block salt for my softener, cheapest I found potassium chloride was £20.

Some people, in the States again, use potassium chloride with ion exchange water softener to provide fish tank water as being considerably cheaper than RO water.


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## ian_m (21 Feb 2020)

Water softener porn. My TwinTec S3 naked.





Incoming cold water comes in at top (red cap) and exits at bottom (red cap). Waste water outlet is on other side, along with salt/brine inlet. Uses the incoming water to power it. It is a very clever design so that most valves & mechanics are in soft water, thus no problems of scaling up and all rubber seals are pressurized both sides, so they don't wear. It has two resin cylinders whilst one is in use the other can be recharged.

Reason for it being out on the floor, as opposed to standing in brine box, is it had it an issue, after 9 1/2 years, where it produced low water pressure. Mesh had failed in one of the resin cylinders letting the resin out and jamming the valves. As it has a 10 year warranty, both resin cylinders and all valves we replaced for free (along with salt control valves extra £40) so basically all new along with warranty until 2027.


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## Angelfishguy99 (21 Feb 2020)

Had a plumber out today. He disconnected the outside tap and re-connected it to before the water softener so i now have a source of un-softened water for my aquariums. He also fitted a new kitchen tap for us. I have no idea what a good or bad price to get this done is but he done it for €120 which i was happy with.

Here is the untreated water.
KH 15
GH 8
PH 7.2
Nitrate 10

Does that seem like suitable water parameters for a planted tank?


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## Witcher (21 Feb 2020)

ian_m said:


> Water softener porn. My TwinTec S3 naked.



Hey @ian_m is it a mixed bed one? What pH do you have on the outlet?


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## ian_m (21 Feb 2020)

Witcher said:


> Hey @ian_m is it a mixed bed one?


As far as I know it is not.
https://www.twintec.com/

Nice cutaway picture here, just shows resin in the cylinder.
https://www.twintec.com/water-softeners/



Witcher said:


> What pH do you have on the outlet?


Never measured the pH, never had reason to. It does make red cabbage water go from red blue when washing up though.

I know my incoming water is very hard (22dGH), as softener has the gear set installed for very hard water. These control how much water passes through before it recharges. I also have a blending bypass valve (needle valve) that allows a tiny bit of hard water past the softener so water is not 100% soft. If you shower/wash using 100% soft you always always always apply far too much soap/shampoo and have a right time washing the soap off. Hardening it a "bit" makes it much easier to wash soap off. Advantages are, no scum in bath, taps stay scale free, no scale on sinks, cars wash up wonderfully, dish washer washes superbly leaving sparkly clean stuff, clothes wash to soft and fluffy, need b*gger all washing liquid/powder to wash clothes exceptionally well, shower glass stays like new and soap and shampoo last ages (provided you remember to use only a small amount each time). Well worth every penny of the £1000 odd to get fitted.


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## ian_m (21 Feb 2020)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> Here is the untreated water.
> KH 15
> GH 8
> PH 7.2
> ...


Yes, this is fine. Having s GH above 4 is generally useful as it means things like test kits will work(ish) more reliably and provides some element of pH buffering to prevent accidental pH swings. 

Just add dehlorinator and use in your tank, job done.


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## ian_m (21 Feb 2020)

Now plumbing porn.

Yes the brochures show nice all piping perpendicular, nice and clean stainless steel piping, all impossibly small under your sink. Below is the connections in real world....




The two white pipes, with hydraulically sealed crimps, are the incoming and out going connections to the softener. There is also a pressure reducing valve (under kitchen units) as my incoming water is 8 bar and 5 bar is typically the max running pressure for water softeners. The valve in the middle is the "bypass" valve to allow water connection if water softener is disconnected. Other pipes are dishwasher connections, outside tap, washing machine connection, kitchen taps and drinking water filter.

Below is plumbing in water softener cupboard.




The two white pipes, labelled "top" and "bottom" (as I didn't know if the were in or out when I took things apart) as incoming hard water and outgoing soft water. The blending valve is on top left. The waste water feeds via the white pipe to a drain, along with washing machine drain.

There is also a brine tank overflow, vented to outside in case there is a leak and brine tank overflows.


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## Angelfishguy99 (21 Feb 2020)

ian_m said:


> Yes, this is fine. Having s GH above 4 is generally useful as it means things like test kits will work(ish) more reliably and provides some element of pH buffering to prevent accidental pH swings.
> 
> Just add dehlorinator and use in your tank, job done.



Thanks Ian, you have been a great help


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## Angelfishguy99 (21 Feb 2020)

Also our water softener is plumbed as crazy as yours. Not a clue what does what or what pipe leads to where. All i know is to add the salt and havent had any trouble at all with it in the past 5 or 6 years we have it. 

When we were buying it we had a choice of the standard one that would flush the system every 24hrs or the upgraded one which was digital and  that would measure water usage and only flush the system when needed. We went with the digital one


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## ian_m (21 Feb 2020)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> We went with the digital one


Hmmm my last two softeners before Twintec were digital. Nice as can see on display how much water to go before regeneration etc etc,

First failed as water & electronics don't go together and no spares available after only 4 years (Canterbury brand, 1999-2003), but was only £300.

2nd one (Water Wizard, £500) failed due to valves wearing out and no spares (2003-2007). Crap but clever idea design as used plastic rods with grooves sliding in an out to control water flow, except the end sealing washers wear out as they need to contain water pressure one side against air the other and then they leak water onto electronics.

Both times whilst investigating the Pro's, the fitters, the installers, all shops say you must buy Kinetico, Twintec, Coleman, Harveys or Crown as all come with 10 year guarantee and no electrics (actually all designed by same person/company), but did I listen....as £1000 or more was too much at the time. They were absolutely right in the end. Spent nearly that in 1999-2007 on two mistakes. My parents have a Crown softener that had issues after 17 years and guy came, changed valve and all working again and that was many many years ago.


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## Angelfishguy99 (21 Feb 2020)

ian_m said:


> Hmmm my last two softeners before Twintec were digital



I honestly do not have much knowledge on water softeners. There was a deal on the EWT gold series 606 water softener so we went with that one. I don't know how it compares to other softeners. It could be good or it could be complete rubbish, all i know is it has done what it was supposed to for the past 5-6 years with no problem at all. Who knows how it will hold up over the next few years.

I know that the softened water is bad for plant health but do you know if it has any negative effects on fish health?


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## ian_m (21 Feb 2020)

Angelfishguy99 said:


> EWT gold series 606


Looks like

You  paid more than the cheapy £500 I paid...
It has 10 year warranty.
(Just deleted a bit as yours ia a volume measuring one.) + Point


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