# "Dutch something or the other" 120 Gal



## plantbrain

I was not quite sure where I am going with this..........I have these more sublime tanks and all are different styles...........biotopes, etc.........reef etc.........no tanks are similar............

I wanted a more stem plant tank with some color contrast, nice plant streets and something to highlight to wood I sell. So the goal is more a colorful garden, bright and cheery. I also wanted some nice plants that I could sell so the tank makes enough $ to pay for the energy use, and hopefully a bit more, this will motivate me to garden more as well

The style is more dutch than anything, with the wood acting something like an old bonsai tree with the roots coming out towards the front. This is FAR from natural style..........you'd NEVER see anything like this in any natural system.

Some have accused the dutch style as being similar to Reef tanks: "they look like Fruits stands selling neatly stacked colorful produce."

I'm not privy to that, and they have a point.

So I thought I'd toss some wood and use the natural curves and flow to add the plants into distinct groupings and work from there. So it's neither Dutch really, nor Nature.

I like "streets of plants" wondering back to the rear, this is a dutch style, and I like contrast(the textures are poorly worked here, but I'll work on this and change things little by little, the colors are green red, green red etc.......like Xmas). I also have the divisions keeping the various groups apart as well, this is somewhat Dutch in that respect also. I have not done so, but I shall.........keep the front edge about 2-3 cm clear of any plants and not allow them to press against the wall.

This is more of a "garden style" really.

I want color and have it. I have a few newer plants and I'll reword the sides some more, wait till other stems grow in more, thicken up etc, and the tank is only about 4 weeks old, I torn the old scape down, it was too, well, boring.......this is the 100% opposite direction almost.

So in another 1-2 months, the scape will come together pretty nicely, I'm still a bit undecided on the species of fish that will be the main community.

Fire shrimp, maybe 500-1000 or so now infest the tank, 3 Gold nuggets, 100 Amano shrimp and maybe 20 Sturisoma 3 cm fry. 
Look, this tank has many issues still with the design, many.

The "guts" are fine........I still have numerous things/details to work on......but the tank is still only 4, now on it's 5th week.

I also had to wait for various plants to come in and also fill out, I'm thinning the dowonoi, and allowing others to fill in more.

I was going to use S belem, but it's a bit too weedy and large in the background, it loves current though.

Things to work on:

1. Allow most groups to fill in and thicken up. Then I can trim then with a staggered look front to back going upwards from low to high. This is really a key part.

2. Remove plants a bit on the sides, these where just nursery areas for some other plants.

3. Add a few smaller pieces of wood to make more spots to add a couple of plantings inside.

4. Add a bit more ADA AS to the rear and shore up the level in the back a bit more.

5. Move some plant groups around to get better textural differences, not just the red/green/red/green thing.......looks like "Christmas" almost.
Maybe I could put some plastic candy canes in there in Dec no?
A plastic Santa Sleigh?

6. Clean the tank up good and remove filter overflow and Vortech, and get a decent picture later. I'm lazy there. I have the equipment and all also.

Well, I was not happy with the mono tone color theme with the 120 prior, so I removed the weeds and the wood, then decided on this hardscape so far:


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## GHNelson

Hi Tom
Your on another winner   it looks rather regimented...but I love it.
Great pictures also....... and look at that wood guys    superb.
Excellent choice of plants to top it off.
hoggie


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## wearsbunnyslippers

lovely!

i like the streets between the wood, and it is refreshing to see some colour for a change!


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## AquaticGardenShop

That gonna be nice 'planted' Mizubi


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## collins

Looks really really good, love the style of this. Congrats!!!!!


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## George Farmer

NA-style hardscaping with quite formal planting - looks very nice.


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## Derek Tweedie

I like that look, I think it will great after a few weeks growth.


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## Derek Tweedie

I like that look, I think it will great after a few weeks growth.


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## Gill

Now that is some excellent  roots hardscaping


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## Alastair

I love this so far, especially the wood selection. Can't wait to see it in another few weeks


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## sanj

I say go with the flow and see where it takes you.


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## plantbrain

AquaticGardenShop said:
			
		

> That gonna be nice 'planted' Mizubi



hahaha


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## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> NA-style hardscaping with quite formal planting - looks very nice.



Yes, I suppose the wood is inspiration and it was  natural concept but the hardscape was secondary really here.
The color factor was the primary goal.

Then making the plots of the plants bordered with the wood, this keeps things tidy(well, tindy-er).

Another technique is to simply take each of the roots and moss em.....wrap them in Fissidens or Flame moss , or a liverwort etc. These smaller blade/thalli plants have very different color than most stems and finer textures. Moss is often wedged in between the foreground plants and hardscape to soften it and provide more depth to the midground area.

I'll get it working right in a few weeks..........still a  ways to go yet.


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## L_Plates

Looks great, as said that wood is superb and colours ... striking.

Great Job.

LP


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## Westyggx

Looks great mate well done will keep an eye on updates!"


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## plantbrain

L_Plates said:
			
		

> Looks great, as said that wood is superb and colours ... striking.
> 
> Great Job.
> 
> LP



Fine line between "gaudy" and "striking" some might suggest


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## Ian Holdich

looking nice Tom, what lighting have you got over out of interest?


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## plantbrain

ianho said:
			
		

> looking nice Tom, what lighting have you got over out of interest?



4x 54W T 5's Tek fixture, 3 powerchromes and an aquaflora Gieseman bulbs. Par is about 50 at the sediment.


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## flygja

*Re: "Dutch something or the other" 120 Gal*

This is gonna be a real cracker!


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## plantbrain

Still plenty of work to do, but it's starting to come along nicely.


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## Jim

Love the colours there Tom, absolutely fantastic mate.


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## Gary Nelson

Very nice indeed, the wood is fantastic!


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## Alastair

I second that. Just wish wood like that was in abundance over here ha ha


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## plantbrain

viper3770 said:
			
		

> Very nice indeed, the wood is fantastic!



Well, I've got a ton or two of driftwood in my yard, so I figure I'd better do something with it.


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## Mxx

Okay, I quit. My tanks will never look as good as this! I'm done with the hobby, you win. ; ) 

Seriously though, I'm giving up at least on trying to figure out what the species of plants that you have here. Can you help us out by giving us a list so that I can look them up and to check what's available here? There are certainly a few there I'd be interested in finding out more about.


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## Gfish

*"Dutch something or the other" 120 Gal*

I love this tank! It's very daring with colours and the amount of wood used. I'd like to re scape my big tank one day and will be looking to your huge stash of driftwood once I've a bit more cash in my pocket.

Do you envisage growing any plants out if the water at any stage with this tank? Would certainly suite that look I think 

Cheers

Gavin


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## plantbrain

AFTER


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## plantbrain

*Re:*



			
				Gfish said:
			
		

> I love this tank! It's very daring with colours and the amount of wood used. I'd like to re scape my big tank one day and will be looking to your huge stash of driftwood once I've a bit more cash in my pocket.
> 
> Do you envisage growing any plants out if the water at any stage with this tank? Would certainly suite that look I think
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Gavin



Perhaps some in the background might end up out of the water due to not trimming them or something.

I trim to sell them, so I have some motivation to keep the gardening going.
Basically farming but I get paid pretty well to do a little bit of work and the crop is worth more than Cannibis actually(semi legal in CA FYI).


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## schraptor

Hi,

Lovely colors and super healthy plants. Water is a bit misty though, right?

topoftankpretrimoct4th.jpg -> is this Hydrocotyle sp. Japan on the top of the wood? Have you just attached it to the wood and it is growing like this?


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## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Lovely colors and super healthy plants. Water is a bit misty though, right?
> 
> topoftankpretrimoct4th.jpg -> is this Hydrocotyle sp. Japan on the top of the wood? Have you just attached it to the wood and it is growing like this?



Hi, yes, it's a tad misty and the picture picked that up more than what it looks like in person. The front to back depth is also pretty far, about 80cm. 

The plant is_ Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides_

It just gets caught on the snag of wood that just breaks the surface. Many of my tanks have this emergent feature, not really on purpose, but if whatever snags there looks bad, I will remove it.


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## plantbrain

Update, still a ways off, I need to redo the R wallichii and add the L pantanal perhaps in that spot where I can trim it often..........have some more slight wood combos to work on. A couple more trims and I should be in a good zone.

Left side still needs work, right side starting to look better.


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## ghostsword

That is a deep tank, and the colours look amazing!  Very deep reds.


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## SuperWen

Hey Tom,
Nice tank and healthy growing plants.

What type of bulbs do you use? I guess it is T5HO but can I get more detail information?
This picture shows you using different colour temperature each bulbs, and on the right side (no.2 from right to left) it looks like you put one reddish/pink bulbs.




thanks Tom,


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## plantbrain

SuperWen said:
			
		

> Hey Tom,
> Nice tank and healthy growing plants.
> 
> What type of bulbs do you use? I guess it is T5HO but can I get more detail information?
> This picture shows you using different colour temperature each bulbs, and on the right side (no.2 from right to left) it looks like you put one reddish/pink bulbs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks Tom,



I use 3 Giesemann powerchrome daylights and one of their pink Aquafloras. The color is a bit too pink for my own taste. I'd like to change this and will try some LED's on the tank in a month or two and see what the color looks like.

This is 216 watts at 70-80 cm above the tank and about 1 meter from the plants for a 450 liter tank and a total of about 500 liters. The fixture is a Tek 4ft fixture that I painted white to match the decor. I do not like the pink bulb, I have some spare daylight I might switch out.

When I add the LED's, I have to be very careful to measure the light, otherwise I'll end up adding way too much light and will need to adjust the height a little and then dim them. I'll use about 1/2 the total light and not have so much light spill into the room. I plan on using maiden hair fern(nice native species here) in pots next to the aquarium also, so I might keep the fixture.


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## Mxx

Would it be possible for you to tell us the plant species used here? I haven't been able to figure it out from the photos!


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## plantbrain

Mxx said:
			
		

> Would it be possible for you to tell us the plant species used here? I haven't been able to figure it out from the photos!



Myrio matogrossense
Anubias coffeefolia.
Bolbitus
C parva
UG
Gloss
Downoi
Ludwigia palustris sp "red"
R wallichii
P stellata 
L arcurata
A reineckii
D diandra
H sibthorpes
M tuberculatum
Ech agustafolia vesuvinus
Tonia fluv
L vertilicilata pantanal
L perunesis/granulosus
Erio cinerum
Starougyne porto velho


I think that is it........


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## foxfish

Tom, I know you like needle wheel pumps but I don't see a spray bar return?


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## plantbrain

foxfish said:
			
		

> Tom, I know you like needle wheel pumps but I don't see a spray bar return?



I've never been fond of spray bar returns, Curiously, Amano is not either, nor any reef folks I know.


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## Mxx

Many thanks. Not being familiar with many of these it took me a little searching to find some of their full names and more about them. But as a result I'll now be adding the following to my list of plants to keep an eye out for!

Ludwigia palustris sp "red"
Rotala wallichii
Erio cinereum
Ludwigia granulosus/perunesis
Ludwigia peruensis
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
Echinodorus angustifolia var vesuvius
Myriophyllum tuberculatum
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides
Alternanthera reineckii
Ludwigia arcuata
Pogostemon (or Eusteralis) stellatus


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## foxfish

OK that is interesting to me but not that surprising!
I have been using a spray bar for a about 12 months, I use a needle wheel pump & sump so I can see the flow patterns within the tank & the flow pattern seem fine however I just dont seem to be seeing the same lush growth as when I was using a basic mid water return across the back of the tank?
I wonder just how much gas I loose by shooting the flow across the surface before its downward & circular flow?


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## plantbrain

Not sure, I do it for aesthetic reasons more than anything I suppose.


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## fandango

Beautiful tank. I'm really looking forward to all the update pictures with it getting more and more stunning. 
+1 against the spray bars across the back of the tanks. I think they are ugly and not necessary.


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## plantbrain

I moved the wallichii to the rear, moved the pantanl over a bit, thinned out some P stellata and some M matogrosense.

I'm think more Erios up that path or perhaps some Tonina I have. The Tonina does not contrast texturally well against the Erios though. 

It cannot be a large leaf plant because I have dwarf red lilies next and then the spiky Erios also.

I also want something that will not overshadow the Erios, the wallichii did this a lot really an blocked the view of the nice wood's main nebari(more a bonsai term) and trunk.

Still pondering a good plant for that spot.


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## plantbrain

A nice smaller lace plant........but..........they will get too large and do not like being moved.

Isoetes, Bacopa langeri, a few others, Hottonia etc......maybe a small dwarf red sword........


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## plantbrain

Added 30 NG dwarf Rainbows, they look like a nice fit. Eating well.


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## Radik

Very nice indeed. So Co2 is above 30ppm or 50ppm I guess and shrimps are doing fine or yo do not measure? What PAR levels do you have at substrate and mid tank just to compare to my 80L with LED. I know numbers might be meaningless for you but I am learning still and it could help. Thanks


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## plantbrain

The CO2 is more in the 50ppm range. Gold Nugget plecos are much more touchy to CO2 than any shrimp.

They are fine.

I have 50 umol at the sediment and about 90 mid and about 120 at the surface.


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## plantbrain

Cloudy water, but that's all ya getting fer now.






This is the problem area:












Still a ways to go and I might need to remove the UG and move to the far left spot.
It's too dominate at this location.

HC or some other low lying species will replace it.
Need more Tonina and L "guinea" to see how it looks more filled in, added more Erios.
I will stair case the giant Erio also next to the Red Ludwgia.


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## Jim

How long do you think you'll be able to go (in weeks) between prunings Tom when the tank is mature?


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## Ian Holdich

nice compact growth there Tom, any chance of a short vid in the future, to gauge the flow in there?

looking good.


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## plantbrain

I go about 2 weeks cycles for pruning.
Right now I do sections, but later it will be the whole tank once it is the way I want.

I have a red lower growing Hygro that would work well contrasted with the UG in the rear.
I need to reslope that UG spot anyways.

The R wallichii would match well in the front row since it's got another green fine needle plant, the Erio "giant".

I'm still undecided about what to replace the UG with.
Elatine triandra would be nice.
I have not grown that weed in about 7 years now.

It has a different growth form and is a nice brighter green, but it grows fast, well, so do many in this tank.
Question is, can it be managed somewhat easily like most of these.


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## Joecoral

*Re:*



			
				skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> What is UG?



Utricularia graminifolia


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## plantbrain

*Re:*



			
				skeletonw00t said:
			
		

> What is UG?



Ugly Guppies


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## ghostsword

How is UG coping with the ferts on the water? I thought that UG liked very acidic and bare water parameters.


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## plantbrain

ghostsword said:
			
		

> How is UG coping with the ferts on the water? I thought that UG liked very acidic and bare water parameters.



Whoever told you that is smoking medical weed. 

I grow the snot out of it at high ferts.

You can clearly see it's a very healthy patch and it would take over if I did not beat it back. Same for Gloss, and most of the other creeping species in this tank.

I made some nice changes to the tank and will post "post trim pics later tomorrow.


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## plantbrain

Update, trimmed last night, sold off the weeds.
So this is right after a major hacking, not only when the tank is at it's prime etc.........

I got some decent ideas and did a few things. I likely will do something different where the wallichi now is, at least I can trim it anyway I want right there, grows about 2-3" a week, so I can make a nice slope with it.
But.........I want a larger different shade of a red there. 

So I got some test plants, some R macrandra and magenta. I'll grow these stems out in the background, then see how they look in that spot where the L perunesis was/wallichii is now.
I'll fill the ADA AS over the Erio cinerums and gently pull them up, this will be better than uprooting entirely and raise the soil level so they can fully expand, they get much larger than what you see here.
But that will take some time still.

I'll add some different driftwood borders on the left side and remove a little bit of the Crypt parva.
This will give a different angle/slope to the L perunesis and provide a piece of border wood for the Tonina. 

I have not yet trimmed the Giant Erio setaceum yet, I'm letting it grow more and hopefully I'll get some side sprouts from the stumps.
So it will be maintained at a lower height.

I also have some Propersinaca palustris in the rear also, which I might use in the front somewhere or replace another plant if I like it/if it can serve a good location.
So I have the P palustris, the R macrandra and the R magenta to work with in that location where the wallichii is. I suppose I can also use the L pantanal as well......but it's such a fast grower, not sure about it.














Close up of the UG for you Luis, now tell me with rich sediment and water column......this is poor growth or not?


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## Radik

UG is fantastic, my UG in Amazonia is growing quite long leaves and spreads veeery slowly I have around 40 par at substrate. I guess I should be just patient.

Did you stick it with the pot or how that it grows so compact?


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## plantbrain

No, I just added 2cm plugs of it in the area and waited. It took awhile to grow and fill in also, maybe 2-3 months or so.


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## George Farmer

Progressing very nicely, Tom.

I like the formality of the design and the refreshing mixtures of texture and colour.  I've seen a few of your 'scapes now and I think this has the potential to be your strongest yet.  It's a real "gardener's" aquascape - if that makes sense.

It's a shame your photographing right after a pruning sessions because the water is a little cloudy, and spoiling the view!


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## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Progressing very nicely, Tom.
> 
> I like the formality of the design and the refreshing mixtures of texture and colour.  I've seen a few of your 'scapes now and I think this has the potential to be your strongest yet.  It's a real "gardener's" aquascape - if that makes sense.
> 
> It's a shame your photographing right after a pruning sessions because the water is a little cloudy, and spoiling the view!



This is done on purpose, I am showing the dirty and filthy..........not just a few perfect pre/post trim sessions.......so people know what it looks like and do not get discouraged. I also had just cleaned out the sponge filter in the wet dry.

Such realistic pictures I think are more useful in illustraing the process.

I've got a ways still to go and need to try some other contrast yet.

Still, I know once the tank is stable with the plant groups..........I'll be able to easily make changes if I see neat new plant, as I have some many nice spots to chose from...........but importantly, that the tank will be easy to manage and keep as a nice garden. So I have plenty of diversity, color, ease of care and management, good plants to sell so the tank pays for it's self(I've made close to 700$ so far........ and I'm just starting to sell off the Fire shrimp at 3$ ea) and some decent sense of aesthetics.

Ironically I have very professional cameras, flashes, all L series Canon lens etc etc...... but I rarely use them for aquarium photography.......I'm more interested in nature than aquariums there. Maybe that will change someday. 
The rear section is a bit thin since I opted to sell off the pantanal..and not replant the nice tops, I'm still regrowing and testing some other plant species back there, so there's not a lot of nice stuff to really see. 
It's a tougher tank to photograph also because it is shallow and deep. A typical FTS does not show the depth well. I'd have to time the trimming and the growth pretty good to pull off a decent FTS.

It can certinly be done, but I'm still not at that stage.
Dutch tanks require a no# of factors, not just the grow in:

I need the right volume of the species, I need the right contrast between groups, I need the overall color scheme to feel balanced, I need to test what works as far as each species type and response to current and location. Then the height of each plant needs accounted for and maintained with reasonable management effort.

Until I finalize the species I want, this is going to be a work in progress. I've always liked the nice groups and diversity in a Dutch style, it offers "an aesthetic controlled collectoritus" garden more than any Nature style.

And while many aquascapers are going with Nature style? Why should I do that? Do something different than what everyone else is doing. 

Some folks(US neophytes mostly) have poo poo EI methods as being unsuitable for nice aquascaping and gardening, claiming it produced growth that was "too fast". Well, this tank certainly dispels their myth. Of course if say such things.....you risk being proven incorrect and having your neck whacked off. And I'm happy to oblige them   

Sad this is my 180 Gal, I added a new pleco that had a lot of ich on it and it wiped out my cards I had in there for the last 5 years. I did everything possible to stop it, 400 fish dead fish later.

I have 3 tanks where I want them. I have 2 to go.


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## flygja

*Re: "Dutch something or the other" 120 Gal*

Tom, since you're using a wet/dry system and you have superb plant growth, what's your secret to CO2? I saw in one of your photos that you sealed up the sump to prevent CO2 from escaping. What about the "overflow" portion? Do you need to run more CO2 than you would normally do with a canister system?


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## sanj

Oooh Rainbows... good choice.


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## plantbrain

*Re:*



			
				flygja said:
			
		

> Tom, since you're using a wet/dry system and you have superb plant growth, what's your secret to CO2? I saw in one of your photos that you sealed up the sump to prevent CO2 from escaping. What about the "overflow" portion? Do you need to run more CO2 than you would normally do with a canister system?



I use the SAME CO2 bubble/flow rate.
the overflow simply sucks the air and any degassed CO2 down into the sump area and it gets dissolved into solution. It's a one way trip.


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## plantbrain

sanj said:
			
		

> Oooh Rainbows... good choice.



They behave well, only one jumper so far.

I redid the left side pretty much.
Removed the C parava and made a U shaped UG "wrap" around the Red Ludwigia perunesis. I'll redo the Erio group and might bring them forward and replace the rear with something else next to the wood.

In the far back where the parva was, I'll use some Hygrophylia 'araguia'.
It has always done very well for me in such locations.

I just need to iron down the Erio situation and the other plant if I pull them forward. I'm not going to add HC to the tank. It's a bit like Riccia to me. I hate it. Infernal weed.

Limnophila mini and making a triangle foreground with the Erios is an idea. Or some other plant with nice ordered look next to the wood trunk "nebari".


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## schraptor

Tom,

I might have missed that one, but would you mind sharing your dosing regime?
What are the water changes and how often. Do you use pure EI? Care to share amounts for the macro mix you use now?
How about micro? Dosing any EC or Excel?

Cheers.


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## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> I might have missed that one, but would you mind sharing your dosing regime?
> What are the water changes and how often. Do you use pure EI? Care to share amounts for the macro mix you use now?
> How about micro? Dosing any EC or Excel?
> 
> Cheers.



It's a semi modified form of EI.

I dose 

3x a week : 1.5 tsp of KNO3, 0.75 tsp KH2PO4, 
4x a week: around 0.5ppm of Fe as a proxy for all traces
After water change: GH booster, about 4 tsp.

good CO2, good sediment, good wide spaced lighting.

I added Excel at one point for 2-3 weeks, but it had no effect.

I also feed the shrimp well, they are very aggressive eaters, so the fish need to be able to compete with them for food. So there's ample N and P from fish waste in addition.


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## plantbrain

You can see the fire shrimp like crows after the farmer plows the field, picking the microinvertebrates and algae.

I allow about 2-3 leaf build up in depth, then I'll mow. This will take 2-3 weeks to recover, but will recover fairly well.

May neophytes do not aggressively trim foreground plants like this. Then their foreground plants tend to look tall and ratty, unkept etc. If you wait too long, and have 10-20 leaf pile up, then the recover is longer and change/shock to the garden is much larger.

So little trimmings here and there, vs huge ones are better, basically consistent good care.

You can see the edges are left untrimmed, I tend t uproot those runners, but for now, till the middle recovers, I let them go and help recovery in the middle. You can see the Gloss snaking up on to the driftwood also, runners going under the wood and invading other plant groups.
It's a weed.


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## Westyggx

Looks great that Plantbrain, what is that red plant on the left may i ask?

Cheers


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## plantbrain

Some "Red" variant of Ludwigia palustris, a very nice deep red plant, easy to grow, stays nice color etc........
Sometimes, sold as Lud. "red" here in the states.....I paid 15$ per stem for 3 stems, but I quickly made my $ back.

I keep it trimmed low, it'll bush out and likely is  more suited for the background.


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## plantbrain

This is a Gloss trim, then you can see the recovery 1 week later:





Recovery:









I'm still a few things short of where I want to be with the plant groups and layout, but as I change it, I'm getting closer. I'm fine with this group but just need to fill in some more species and those will arrive this week or so. Then it's good care and trim timing for the rear plants.


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## schraptor

Tom, I really like this tank, lush greens and beautiful reds. Gloss - well soon mine should look like this hopefully   
I'm still wondering why your water seems to be a bit misty on the pictures you have shared.


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## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Tom, I really like this tank, lush greens and beautiful reds. Gloss - well soon mine should look like this hopefully
> I'm still wondering why your water seems to be a bit misty on the pictures you have shared.



I do large water changes and then rescape............this places less stress on livestock I feel.
I use to do it the other way around, large hack and then water change.

ADA AS adds this murky haze after you move things around and it takes a 1-2 days to clear at least.

I could follow the trim with a 2nd water change I suppose, but there's little need, I'm not entering nor care to enter aquascape competitions..........I'm just showing the tank as it progresses and what and why I do what I do.

A pair of flashes and a real photo shoot seems more trouble vs a simple video.
Which is likely forthcoming now I have a nice HD camcorder.


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## plantbrain

1.5 weeks post trimming.

Not bad recovery and VERY easy and less issues than uprooting and replanting methods.


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## schruz

Very educational thread Tom, I'm learning a great deal from it, thank you! Your plants look marvelously healthy, naturally.


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## schraptor

Tom,

You prune Glosso similarly to HC, very low but leaving some thin layer, therefore the plant will not suffer, but will spread even more. Am I right here?
Do you even bother to prune in such a way that you can sell Glosso?

Also, you have mentioned that you get some extra bucks for the plants, I assume you sell them on ebay or similar site. How do you usually pack the plants, make sure they don't dry out / die and how long from your experience can they last while being shipped?


----------



## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> You prune Glosso similarly to HC, very low but leaving some thin layer, therefore the plant will not suffer, but will spread even more. Am I right here?
> Do you even bother to prune in such a way that you can sell Glosso?
> 
> Also, you have mentioned that you get some extra bucks for the plants, I assume you sell them on ebay or similar site. How do you usually pack the plants, make sure they don't dry out / die and how long from your experience can they last while being shipped?







You can see that there's only maybe 1cm or less of ADA AS in the front of this tank, I add barely "just enough".

Yes, you can cut off the errant HORIZONTAL runners on the outside of the patch, you have to trim that dimension down also, not just the vertical. This can be cut nice and evenly by using a plastic paint scraper etc..........just like you might do when cutting sod. I do this for HC often.

Gloss is really not worth much $$, so I just toss or give it away generally.

I use plastic grocery bags and maybe wet newspaper, junk mail or paper towels etc, fold them up, then in the plastic bags snug........maybe 2-3 plastic bags, semi loosely....then take them down and ship them to who ever via mail service. We have 2-3 day service here for roughly 2-3 pounds. So I'll sell say Staruogyne repens, say 20 plants for 10 pounds + 3 to ship as an example. So once a month, you could sell a fair amount of plants from each tank if things go well and nice pics are a great way to sell, always show a nice example/pic, that is your best selling point and argument settler


----------



## schraptor

Thanks for sharing Tom. I use similar method for securing plants for shipment, not so many to be pruned though


----------



## plantbrain

Fish:




And the R macarndra that's coming along in the rear. I plan on making a nice wedge triangle ground from the mid to the rear. 
Then R walichii going to other way.

This should look nice and fix some of the issue I dislike in the back ground.


----------



## JohnC

Just wanted to say thanks for this journal Tom. Very informative from many angles of plant care and general maintenance not often covered by other posters.

Best Regards,
John


----------



## foxfish

Well said as I also love this real time thread.


----------



## schraptor

Very nice recovery and one can already notice that leafs are getting somehow smaller on that Glosso.

I really like the color of your Rotala macrandra, looks like it is growing very healthy. How would you rate the difficulty of growing this plant, as I get contradictory opinions about it. I might want to replace Alternanthera Reineckii as it is getting too big for my tank http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14129&start=30 and macrandra looks like a good "red accent" replacement for it.


----------



## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Very nice recovery and one can already notice that leafs are getting somehow smaller on that Glosso.
> 
> I really like the color of your Rotala macrandra, looks like it is growing very healthy. How would you rate the difficulty of growing this plant, as I get contradictory opinions about it. I might want to replace Alternanthera Reineckii as it is getting too big for my tank http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14129&start=30 and macrandra looks like a good "red accent" replacement for it.



Well, it use to be a very standard plant to grow for plant hobbyist. 
A classic red weed.

I've seen some truly neglected aquariums overloaded with discus produce some nice stands, also, low light tanks with some potting soil and not much else. I think being able to grow ANY plant species together is a key element in a good gardener or horticulture.

A reineckii is a nice plant...........but I like other species for their characters often more so........so I rarely use it. It is easier than R macrandra I'd say.......but a different shade of red for sure. Both can be topped and allowed to resprout. I think R macrandra is better suited as a background plant, whereas A reinecki can be used in many different locations easily.

This aquarium does not use reds as accents, they use them as the main part of the color scheme actually. Makes it a real challenge to cook up a nice feel.


----------



## plantbrain

Due to prodding by a local member, I bought some R macrandra from AFA, an ADA vendor in SF a few days ago to compare my R mac to theirs. Some have claimed some rather narrow parameters for N and P for good optimal color/look etc.

AFA has virtually no N, but ADA aqua soil........
I have ADA aqua soil, but rich NO3/PO4 (roughly 20ppm and 5-7ppm of PO4) and fish feedings.

The plants looked identical.


----------



## schraptor

Thanks for sharing Tom.
I've browsed through my local suppliers' offer and it is not so easy to find a good source of Macrandra (relatively easy to find a 'green' one). Also looking at offered plants, none of the pictures reassembled the one seen in your post with regards to health and color.


----------



## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Thanks for sharing Tom.
> I've browsed through my local suppliers' offer and it is not so easy to find a good source of Macrandra (relatively easy to find a 'green' one). Also looking at offered plants, none of the pictures reassembled the one seen in your post with regards to health and color.



Sorry

How about shrimp?


----------



## schraptor

Not bad .. for a painted ones


----------



## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Not bad .. for a painted ones



These are F3 from the original batch.


----------



## plantbrain

4 weeks later, the rug is full and dense, roughly 3cm deep and packed tight and low.

So mowing the rug once a month hard works well for this tank.
Some tanks might be more, others, less.


----------



## schraptor

Looking good Tom   
I'm still working on my Glosso carpet to get so dense.


----------



## FishyJake13

Very nice, love the colour contrast


----------



## plantbrain

Some top view of the rear:




you can see two different growth colors of R macrandra, one orange and another red.
Same plant, same tank, but different coloration.
One was trimmed recently and the other was not, I'll let you guess which is which.

Sorry for the ripples, my tank has those without the hair dryer trick.

Gloss at 35 Days post trim, a real dense mat.





I am NOT liking the Fissidens. I was thinking of making several round wood pieces to act like stones and round moss balls.

Another option is to spread the Erio out more in that section.
I could also add dwarf clover which I have a little bit of sitting here.

I need a better contrast leaf wise against the Erio and the UG though, whatever it is, needs to be short and not HC etc.

Shrimp attacked the Erio setaceum. I'll remove it and add it to another tank tomorrow night. R wallichii also was attacked a fair amount, but they have left it alone the last 2 weeks.
Some fine needle plants do not mind.....others do. Obviously shrimp no#, type and density matter, as well as feedings, I feed them a lot, but there are a lot of shrimp. Every pic has many, I did not wait or feed them to coax them out! There are just that many in the tank.

I think I might try the larger patch of Erios and expand the UG perhaps a bit.
Fissidens might go on a few of the wood branches.

Mermaid weed has colored up and is looking decent in the rear, Hydrothrix continues to a weed that needs trimmed often, same with P stellata.

Measured the light again and reduced the height of the fixture from 16 to 12" above the water .
60umol along the bottom.
Added all bulbs: 120 umol.

I ran 120 umol for a couple of weeks for 8 hours per day.
I ended up with a lot more glass algae whereas I had none prior. Plants grew faster, some colored up better in areas that had shaded lower light/overshadowed prior. Seem mostly a function of evenness of the lighting, rather than intensity, but intensity still plays a role beyond a threshold of good growth.
How much is hard to quantify and different bulb spectra also plays a role if not a more/large role for this. I think this much light(120umol) is asking for more work. I can keep the tank clean etc, and trim, but I'd prefer not to clean the glass much if at all.
At 60umol, I still get very nice overall growth that plenty for most any scaping project.

I guess and suspect a range might be:

Low light: 25-40umol, mid40-60umol, high: 60-120umol for the bottom of the tank. Top levels in the tank at full lighting was 250umol, or about where Troels/Ole's article in tropic set their upping limit for light and CO2.
CO2 is about 50ppm in this tank. Fish eat very aggressively as well as shrimp and so called CO2 sensitive species(some plecos and elephant noses).\

My old 90 Gal tank from 15 years ago had about this same high light PAR range using 350 Watts of metal halide about 12" above the water. Roughly 400umol at the center at the water's surface and about 60-70umol at the bottom over most of the sediment.
This is an estimate since the tank is not running any longer, but I took some measures from an old set up that uses the same Hamilton fixtures on a 90 Gal tank/same bulbs(Iwasaki 6500K).


----------



## schraptor

Tom,

Your posts are always a really good reading material. Interesting observations I must say.
Do you get green spot algae on wood as well? I wonder if one can obtain such balance in the tank (light, ferts, CO2) so that these will not be covering the wood. How do you usually get rid of it? I find it very easy to scrape with a razor or something similar, but it is a lot of work proportional to amount of wood and complexity of its shape.


----------



## Gilles

Hi Tom, are those Sakura shrimps?


----------



## plantbrain

Gilles said:
			
		

> Hi Tom, are those Sakura shrimps?



A Grade up, fire shrimp.

I really need to harvest, they have started eating and pestering some plant species with fine needles.

Amanos has their own issues, but these tend to go after finer leaves more.


----------



## plantbrain

schraptor said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> Your posts are always a really good reading material. Interesting observations I must say.
> Do you get green spot algae on wood as well? I wonder if one can obtain such balance in the tank (light, ferts, CO2) so that these will not be covering the wood. How do you usually get rid of it? I find it very easy to scrape with a razor or something similar, but it is a lot of work proportional to amount of wood and complexity of its shape.



There's no algae of any sort on the wood.

Too many shrimp.

This tank only has algae on the glass and even then, it's not much and only when I add more light.
I removed the Sturisoma which cleaned the glass well about 2 months ago.


----------



## plantbrain

If you do get algae on rock or wood, simply do a real large water change to expose the wood/rock, then take some easy carbo or Excel and put in a spray bottle. Mist on the infested regions, then refill in a few minutes.

This works with ADA's phyto git, Excel/Easy carbo, a strong salty solution of KNO3, or KH2PO4 etc......, peroxide, etc......just make sure not to get on the plants that are in the air, the submersed leaves are fine.

Algae below or near the bottom can be squirted with a syringe when the water is very still also, then a toothbrush after a few minutes to bother the algae even more.

I honestly have few issues with algae on hardscape materials.


----------



## viktorlantos

I really love that DOF shot Tom. The color contrast and shooting angle is really nice. Just like your plants. I do not have prob with fissidens and it gives a great contrast between the different colors.

Jellous to these colors my friend


----------



## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:
			
		

> I really love that DOF shot Tom. The color contrast and shooting angle is really nice. Just like your plants. I do not have prob with fissidens and it gives a great contrast between the different colors.
> 
> Jellous to these colors my friend



You have the skills and horticulture ability to do this.
These are not "hard to grow" red plants by any means.

Main thing is making them look good and contrast well without overwhelming things.
Tank looks fun and nice from above, but I have high current, so it's not ideal crystal clear like viewing.........but still quite nice.


----------



## plantbrain

Update , sorry for outside dirty glass/poor depth of field  I plan some new plant species to be added this week and removed lot of downoi due to  good sale price offer it.
So some new changes are on the way.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll also be adding the new ATI dimmer fixture on this tank, so I think I'll end up with about 30-40% more light for the midday burst and then about 20% less energy overall. So very effective lighting.

I also bought a dozen different bulbs to play with beside the Gieseman which are mostly in this pic.

Ge Star coat
ATI blue specials,
ATI purples
Coralife colormax
Aqualife red
Aqualife purple
A few others..........

I've been threatening to bring out a flash to get some serious lighting for the depth of field and color.


----------



## George Farmer

Very nice, Tom!

You said earlier about 50ppm CO2. Of course, we don't recommend this for most situations. What makes your system safe to run such high CO2? I'm guessing high O2?

Would you consider LED lighting, or do you find the colour rendition not there yet?

I'm not sure you need flash to light up this tank. Your camera (5D2) will shoot very high ISO with virtually no noise, and you're not exactly scrimping on tank lighting in terms of power and nice colour. You only have to see Mark's 'snaps' to see what's achievable - he's using just 2 x T5 for most of his shots. His 135L lens too, mostly wide open. The shallow DoF looks great to pop the intended subject.


----------



## Mark Evans

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I'm not sure you need flash to light up this tank. Your camera (5D2) will shoot very high ISO with virtually no noise,



Very true. 

If you do have a 5dMK2, you'll know that even @ 1250 iso pictures dont have any visible noise (for Internet use at least) so additional light isnt needed. I'm sure you know this though, Tom

This for example was taken with just 2 x 54wt5...F4 iso 400 i think. 

I've not got the bowens flash heads out once yet for this tank.


crop1 by saintly's pics, on Flickr

This tank of yours lends itself to possibly some awesome pictures, what with all the different colours and textures that are occurring.


----------



## mitchelllawson

Why when i scape does it never come out like this :L It looks fantastic

What are the red stems? Not the one that looks like cabomba the other one?

Also were did you get that wood?

Mitchell


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Very nice, Tom!
> 
> You said earlier about 50ppm CO2. Of course, we don't recommend this for most situations. What makes your system safe to run such high CO2? I'm guessing high O2?



Well, I think Amano is obsessive about O2 also, but perhaps it's for similar reasons. One thing he likes to measure is COD, which is the blahblahblahblahblahblahblah cheap easy brother of BOD measurements. Some tanks may have a much higher COD/BOD due to a lot of wood........or higher density of of total plant biomass, or fish load.........etc.

My 180 runs at 70ppm.
Fish are fine.

All my tanks have wet/dry filters and have 1-2ppm more O2 than canister filter tanks. Amano also has a sump in his home tank. 

It likely gives some wiggle room I'd suggest with CO2.
2 decades ago I had a few conservations with some Germans and Dutch folks about my higher levels of CO2 on my 90 Gal, I was at 30-40ppm ranges, so were they.

No issues.

I had added 2 x 175W MH lights, so I had a lot more light, so I added more and more CO2 till the plants looked happy as could be. I did this slow and progressively. I suspect many use this same watch and see method. With a nice super clean surface and plenty of O2 to break down any waste etc..........seems like a no brainer........



> Would you consider LED lighting, or do you find the colour rendition not there yet?
> 
> I'm not sure you need flash to light up this tank. Your camera (5D2) will shoot very high ISO with virtually no noise, and you're not exactly scrimping on tank lighting in terms of power and nice colour. You only have to see Mark's 'snaps' to see what's achievable - he's using just 2 x T5 for most of his shots. His 135L lens too, mostly wide open. The shallow DoF looks great to pop the intended subject.



Yea, I could push the iso high.

The way I took pics in the past is to use a decent flash set up, and I like that look personally.
I'll adjust the iso in the coming weeks and see.

LED's, they have a trade off with spread........lots of light in one smaller area, vs a nice spread. This can be done........but for the colors and trade off, the ATI actually does a better job for about the same amount of energ cost, since I only am running a full blast energy of 5-6hours tops whereas I'd need about 8-10 with the LED's, so they end up being about equal, but I get wider assortment of colors and spectra.

Light meter does not lie.


----------



## plantbrain

mitchelllawson said:
			
		

> Why when i scape does it never come out like this :L It looks fantastic
> 
> What are the red stems? Not the one that looks like cabomba the other one?
> 
> Also were did you get that wood?
> 
> Mitchell



Screw up for 20 years 1st, that's how

where did I get that wood you ask?


----------



## George Farmer

Thanks, Tom.

You mention Amano's use of CO2 but from what I've read he rarely runs over 20ppm. This seems to be evidential when we see videos of the tanks in his gallery. For example there are 120cm+ tanks with a single glass diffuser at one end, with most of the bubbles rising straight to the surface, because the circulation is also relatively low (one filter with one set of lily pipes).


----------



## plantbrain

The Tonina is not trimmed well because behind the red hedge of Ludwigia, there are the stumps so I can resprout and get more Tonina tops to fatten the bunch up more.

It grows fast.

Here's an older tank where I just ran simple rows.....but you get the idea:








Bottom to top: 
Erio setaceum
Tonina fluv.
L pantanal
Syn "manus"
L cuba.

Cuba grows too fast and is too branchy for this tank.
Erio got attacked by the Fire shrimp
I've shied away from any Syn species.........since I have Tonia already and need a certain no# of red/green textures.

I have the smaller Tonina lotus blossom and some Ammannia gracilus to work with, and some Monoselium for a piece of wood vs the Fissidens, if I like the liverwort.......I might move the Fissidens elsewhere.

Still a ways to go.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Thanks, Tom.
> 
> You mention Amano's use of CO2 but from what I've read he rarely runs over 20ppm. This seems to be evidential when we see videos of the tanks in his gallery. For example there are 120cm+ tanks with a single glass diffuser at one end, with most of the bubbles rising straight to the surface, because the circulation is also relatively low (one filter with one set of lily pipes).



I've seen too many aquariums and measured CO2 very very carefully over the years to believe it's 15ppm on every one of those tanks.

I've seen many tanks and each one that looks like those has much higher ppm than that/what has been stated when I measured it myself..........
In other words, I'd have to have some referenced standard and then good methods to be proven wrong and I'd want to see the whole day's CO2 ppm chart. Many of the best scapers I know adjust CO2 by eye. and those levels I've measured have been similar to my own.Then once the tank is doing well, then you go back and measure the CO2, whatever it is, it is. I have no set ppm level I adjust any tank to.

I'm skeptical that they are 20ppm..........plants are really growing fast and that does not happen merely by magic, only a few things can produce those pearling plants and rates of growth, when I've set my levels at 20ppm, I've also adjusted the lighting a lot........... I do not get those results and this is consistent. My horticulture, dosing, light etc.none of that is the cause, and when I tweak the CO2 right......all is well and the tank grows any and everything well without algae and at the same levels as those Videos.

Now why is that?

 My fish also seem to have little issue with these CO2 levels, they breed and I have higher stocking levels than ADA.
So those levels are not toxic, what is really going on is poor methods/testing procedures for measuring CO2? Likely so. But who knows. 

To do it the best possible way, you'd need a standard reference that is KNOWN, then a good resolution method, then measure it over the time interval of interest: the entire photoperiod.

This is a plot from a client's tank(the Behemoth actually)
I would say flow relative to the same size is similar as far as CO2 etc as a typical ADA tank.



 

This was referenced several ways to make sure. Lighting in that tank is low, but at the top, it's fairly high.

The Dutch NBAT members also play a trick, do big water changes BEFORE...........folks come over, since they are graded on purer water= more points. This obviously helps and if my business depended on it.........and looking as good as the pics, you bet I'd do this before.....anyone shows up. I'm not him obviously but that is what I'd do.

Many of the displays are also, quite open, having fewer plants that block flow........but there's plenty of examples where low flow and nice looking tanks mix well, but these also lack good stocking of fish. Which as you also know.....ADA's tanks are sparsely populated. I like fish, I like higher flows(but not always), I have different taste, with less flow, you will run a higher risk of gassing fish and not be able to support as many fish.  Tetras can handle quite tough conditions really. I do not see any challenging species being kept.



So lower flow, might be fine........CO2, well, if you do good size water changes often, that can make up for it. I have an ADA store locally where I've already done this, their tanks are jamming with CO2 at AFA............The canister filtered tanks do not degas much.......so the ppm's build up, much like a sealed cap.

AFA CO2 ran in the same 40-60ppm.........ranges.......

I noted this when measuring the difference between the CO2 in the canister vs the wet/dry CO2 graph.
Even at night, the 180 Gal had 20ppm of CO2 and about 80ppm during the day. The CO2 method check in at 2ppm at night after about 30-45 min after the CO2 stopped going in. Stayed there till I added more the next day. Canister filter? Sucker adds CO2 I suspect a little, but the surface exchange...........is greatly reduced for CO2, more than O2, but O2 takes a hit of at least 1-2ppm. Again, it depends on WHEN you measure O2........if you measure it at the peak of growth, it will be higher........by predawn? Then that is it's lowest ppm.

I used a simple KH reference cell, flat tipped pH probe and silicone gas membrane. This is responsive and checked well with the CO2 reference and a RO/DI+ KH reference reference system. 

When I did a large water change on the 180, the CO2 dropped to 10ppm...........took about 1 hour to get back up to 70ppm. But plants where expose to air and plenty of CO2 during that time.

I do not know. I'd have to measure the tanks there to say much. I have only the experience here, and with other folk's tanks, the one ADA vendor here........based on what I found from the sediment test, the Light test, liquid ferts test, I'm a bit more skeptical than most, but those test also shows a lot more WHY.........those systems worked well and scaping/horticulture skills alone can help some, but not like that.........now lights will not change here to Japan, nor will the soil....nor will the ferts............but..........CO2 can be VERY different user to user and measuring it also, can vary a great deal. We all thought that ADA had much higher light intensity than prior, till we took a light meter to the fixtures with a  nice ADA scape at the vendor. Now we know it was actually quite low.

So there is not much left out of this debate other than CO2 really.
We can reasonably test/measure the other factors/rule out things.
CO2 is tough.

I will not argue that!


----------



## roadmaster

Tom,
 Nice photo's from area where would was collected.
Do be careful while toting about those large branches out in the woods.
The Elmer Fudd type folks, might mistake you for a large Elk,or Buck  
Last photo appears that a cabin once stood there, with possibly remnant's of a chimney and possible remains of fence further down the slope.
Have been to this place many times in dreams, or possibly past lifetime.


----------



## viktorlantos

One more addition to the high level CO2
http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/2012/01 ... -tank.html

I also experienced the same thing in our gallery. With a mature tank with diffuser we inject 2 times more CO2 then we usually do at the beginning or what i would recommend to anyone who aks for a help.

All shrimps, fishes are fine. And no algae because of the extra CO2 (brush etc).
A mature tank could eat a hell lot of CO2 if that is in a good shape.


----------



## plantbrain

roadmaster said:
			
		

> Tom,
> Nice photo's from area where would was collected.
> Do be careful while toting about those large branches out in the woods.
> The Elmer Fudd type folks, might mistake you for a large Elk,or Buck
> Last photo appears that a cabin once stood there, with possibly remnant's of a chimney and possible remains of fence further down the slope.
> Have been to this place many times in dreams, or possibly past lifetime.



We are a gun crazed country to be sure, and they are wasting ammo about 1/2 kilometer from here.
I hear shots every 20 seconds for hours often times, semi automatics, 30cal, 50 cal, 22, 410 and 12 gauge.
A few beers and whiskey.........I'm quite friendly and most of the regulars know me and the truck. Keeps the mountain lion population on the run also

No cabins stood here, this is where nature is still strong. Amano had to create his pond in the back yard, this is my back yard and where I work, Lake Tahoe is my research field site. Manzy is a weed and stunted pine trees which are used for logging companies. The USDA sells leasing to log these regions, better than homes and development and the trees grow back faster than you'd think, this region and most of what you see was burnt to the ground in 1991.

Forest fire suppression causes a massive fire. today, we set smaller low intensity fires which are more natural.
Tahoe got toasted also 2 years ago in the Angora hills fire. Same thing, too much fuel.

All the smoke in the pic is from set fires by the Forest Service. Sequoia and many trees will die without low level fires. Lightening is common in the summer months when it's driest. You'll see some of the pieces I sell have charred burn areas on them from the various fires that move through these mountains.


----------



## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:
			
		

> One more addition to the high level CO2
> http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/2012/01 ... -tank.html
> 
> I also experienced the same thing in our gallery. With a mature tank with diffuser we inject 2 times more CO2 then we usually do at the beginning or what i would recommend to anyone who aks for a help.
> 
> All shrimps, fishes are fine. And no algae because of the extra CO2 (brush etc).
> A mature tank could eat a hell lot of CO2 if that is in a good shape.



Yes, I think many folks set the CO2 by eye. Then do not worry about things unless they see algae of fish at the surface gasping etc.

Wild discus were the most responsive of the fish behavior wise I've found to CO2.
45ppm or higher, they got darker and did not behave like they should. Elephant nose bird beak, several plecos, any high energy larger fast swimming fish...............are going to be more susceptible.

Lower temps, better surface movement, those bell like DoAqua! lily pipes, the ones with the roundish return that causes the surface to be more broken up, I think those are better. And as always, lots of water changes and good trimming.

I do not think a method defines the scape, but a good scaper can make do with any method... almost.
CO2 is just too critical to assume much about it.

I have tanks with 40ppm and others at 70ppm, that's just what that particular tank individually requires........this tank sits in the 45-55 range, but has LESS than my 180 Gal tank. I have no idea why that is.......

I only test after things are set and doing well. A messed up tank's reading is not of much use to me, a well run aquarium's readings are VERY useful to me. This way I know that range is good for that tank, light/ferts, sediment, flows etc.........these can be reproduced relatively easily, but CO2 is the toughest one.

Why not ask Amano?

Which is tougher: setting up the ferts, the light or the CO2? Which is the most lethal to fish if done incorrectly?
Haha, you will get an answer.

Perhaps Amano suggest, or I should say ADA.as a general piece of hobby advice for 15-20ppm, which is what PMDD also suggested many years ago about the same time ADA started..........simply as a starting point and for NEW hobbyists not start higher and gas their fish etc.

Intermediate and advanced hobbyists can explore and slow and carefully adjust up from there.

I think we often assume a lot about a single sentence someone writes but if we talked to them directly in person, they are a lot more qualifying about such things. I am, I see no reason Amano is not either.

We'd want to know more specifics, and the level of the hobbyists.
Method to measure CO2..........when, time of day, etc..........general routines.........
There is just a lot that is left out from a sound bite.


----------



## Tim Harrison

> I think we often assume a lot about a single sentence someone writes but if we talked to them directly in person, they are a lot more qualifying about such things. I am, I see no reason Amano is not either.



Bang on, its so difficult to communicate effectively through the medium of a forum without being misunderstood at some stage. But I think you're doing ok.

And...I wish I had a back yard like yours, and...well...what can I say about your Dutch something or other that hasn't already been said.


----------



## GHNelson

Hi gang
Did you notice they have a dosing calculator for salts on their page to the right.
 :arrow: http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/2012/01 ... -tank.html
hoggie


----------



## plantbrain

Added the ATI finally.

I'll have a nice mix of Red/purple, 6500K, and blue special lighting.
I've come to really like the purple addition, really adds something to the tank's colors. I really did not think it would.....

Hopefully, if I can get the Erio setaceum growing nicely in my other tank, then add it back, they stronger growth will prevent the fire shrimp attack. At least I have some back up and can return the poor plant back if the shrimp just will not leave it alone.

I plan on moving the C parva upfront after fight it for several months.
It's just got the right contrast and growth habit that the spot requires, the Fissidens is going up on some wood higher up.

This will free up a section in the rear L which will have the Red low grow hygro added and I have some Ammania gracilius(might be a Nesesa however) that I might use to replace the Mermaid weed in the rear. I like the mermaid weed, but the Ammania will lend a better contrast to that section and fill in denser. No one will buy mermaid weed either

Last but not least, the Tonina "lotus blossom" will need a new home somewhere in this mish mash. This is a cool plant.

I guess I'll also resign myself to frequent trims for the pantanal and add it to the far Right red foreground row. Least till I see another nice red plant that fits the spot better.

In order to maintain a nice Ludwigia "Red" row up front, I think I'll have to stick with the uproot and replant the tops methods, topping alone did not look as nice and recovery was paler.
What you see in the lats pic is the recovery after about 2-3 weeks.
If you can wait that long for recovery, topping does work well.

I sold 24 downoi. So I just have a few scraps left now. They will recover, but I should have sold less, but at 140$ for them, well, hard to say no when I know they will grow back.

Nothing is permanent

I did the same with the Pantanal about 1 month ago.... sold all 25 stems.
Now I'm trying to grow it back   

Feast or famine.
I'm an idiot sometimes, but.........a little patience allows me to live with myself


----------



## plantbrain

Troi said:
			
		

> I think we often assume a lot about a single sentence someone writes but if we talked to them directly in person, they are a lot more qualifying about such things. I am, I see no reason Amano is not either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bang on, its so difficult to communicate effectively through the medium of a forum without being misunderstood at some stage. But I think you're doing ok.
> 
> And...I wish I had a back yard like yours, and...well...what can I say about your Dutch something or other that hasn't already been said.
Click to expand...


The web leaves out a great deal, and I think many in Europe seem well/more(?) aware of it, in the USA, it's cause to jump down someone's throat, almost an excuse to virtually sucker punch.  I love to hike, mountain bike, so if ANY of you ever come to CA, let me know ahead of time, if you are into MTB, I have many epic rides, same for the road push bikes! 

I think I got to know and understand Amano a few times as many in the US pushed he and I together at a couple of the conferences. He's a funny guy. Not serious. But he's no Plant Physiologist either. I do not think he speculates and makes most of the stuff up in the mags and journals, I think other folks add such embellishments, it's just not him  nor his style.

What I do find interesting is even though I've fought asnd been skeptical, over time many of the same conclusions he arrived at, I and most folks who have tested and tried in this hobby a fair amount all come to very similar conclusions.

In otherwords, we are FAR more ALIKE, than we are different about this hobby. This is true for people worldwide IME.


----------



## plantbrain

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi gang
> Did you notice they have a dosing calculator for salts on their page to the right.
> :arrow: http://aquatic-art.blogspot.com/2012/01 ... -tank.html
> hoggie



Wet's cal kicks some serious bum:

http://calc.petalphile.com/

Like graphs?


Graphing:
http://ei.petalphile.com/

I miss the old days when folks thought I was smart using pen and paper


----------



## GHNelson

Hi Tom
That's what I call a calculator  
This one has Magnesium Nitrate  
hoggie


----------



## plantbrain

hogan53 said:
			
		

> Hi Tom
> That's what I call a calculator
> This one has Magnesium Nitrate
> hoggie



I've worked with Wet on this and there's no forum or ads on his cal or link. something I'm strongly for. 
He's talked to me about a few of the issues and we have spread the cal to include as many languages as possible, not the typical irony that's often said in the USA:

"Speak *American* dammit!"


----------



## GHNelson

Hi Tom
You've both done a good job on that calculator.Nice work.  
Now am gonna check Toby's dosing regime for 50 litres    and mine.
Love the Dutch 120....great colours.
Cheers
hoggie


----------



## plantbrain

Took some light reading at max intensity with the ATI fixture. 

@12" from the water's surface: 500 umol.
Middle along the sediment: 180-190umol
Bottom corners/front, 140-150umol.

Butt load of light.

I'm removing a purple and adding another white colored bulbs and removing thh Aquaflora in the rear and going with an Aquawave red.

Fish color is 10X better.

I think I figured out how specifically ATI gets some of the increase in lighting, the reflectors are specific and do not cause spill over into the room nearly as much as the Tek.

It's a huge improvement to the living area!
LED's do this same thing when designed correctly.

I estimated I'd get 175 umol or so, and that is just about right.

I got 120 umol or about *45% increased vs Tek at the same distances.*
Now........I can use this increase various ways with the ATI..........I can dial down the % on the dimmer, or I can add a midday spike(or several small spikes) and/or shorter the photoperiod. I have many options.

The fixture does not look nearly as bright, but......... the light meter does not lie.


----------



## JohnC

plantbrain said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> Wet's cal kicks some serious bum:
> 
> http://calc.petalphile.com/




That's ace.... Big thanks to Mr Wet and yourself.

BM'ed for future use on my computer and mobile.

Best Regards,
John


----------



## plantbrain

JohnC said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> Wet's cal kicks some serious bum:
> 
> http://calc.petalphile.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's ace.... Big thanks to Mr Wet and yourself.
> 
> BM'ed for future use on my computer and mobile.
> 
> Best Regards,
> John
Click to expand...


It's fun to noodle around with.

I'm much less interested in ferts these days, but 15 years ago I would have been all happy as a clam.


----------



## plantbrain

I've got some stuff crammed in while they recover and moved some things around to see and explore what works nice and looks good in certain spots, scape wise, this is lousy.........but it can be recovered easily and phased in/out.

Background plants have done well and are fairly stable in the groupings I want. 
I need some more work on the front right, I have 2-3 pieces of wood that will make the border look better between the Fissidens and the C parva and the Erios. I'll trim the UG back and leave some open space there also.

Right side has some more grow out to do for the pantanal/Tonina and I'm undecided on Downoi, it's a nice plant though.. so it's hard to consider removing it.
I'll go through and make more distinction between the groups later on, that's a final trim and rework prior to a prime photoshoot.
Or.........if I just feel like doing it regardless of the status of the group/s.

I'm still playing around with various bulb configurations.


----------



## Rabb.D

good god!   thats beautiful... i wish i had a fraction of your skill, experience... and talent... Jesus!! i'm not even christian..


----------



## GHNelson

Rabb.D said:
			
		

> good god!   thats beautiful... i wish i had a fraction of your skill, experience... and talent... Jesus!! i'm not even christian..


Yip
Tom is the man....hes been a great inspiration to us all.
He finds the best manzanita wood in America and ships it to the UK what a fella 
Your spot on, the aquarium is stunning. 
hoggie


----------



## Rabb.D

plantbrain said:
			
		

> scape wise, this is lousy.........but it can be recovered easily and phased in/out.




his humility is so off and needless it makes me lol


----------



## plantbrain

Rabb.D said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scape wise, this is lousy.........but it can be recovered easily and phased in/out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> his humility is so off and needless it makes me lol
Click to expand...


I'm a picky #$^%^&@

I'm thinking in terms of what I want to do versus my impatience and ability.
But.........I do have one quality and it's tenaciousness. So I keep picking away at things.

I want nicer fatter Tonnia groups, I want my downoi to grow faster now, but not when I have a lot and need to sell it and no one is buying, feast or famine.

The Erio Setaceum Type 1 was planted this morning, so it's not even righted itself yet.
Background got a vicious hacking 2 days ago and will recover and look nice in about a week.
Left side will have some UG trim work and then some new small pieces of wood that are a better fit, I've been after that section for months.

Pantanal needs more stems to fatten up and to make a nice thick row.

I need to find homes for 3 -4 plants.

The Red low grow hygro in the far Left rear corner was also a new planting. The C parva that was there, and now moved up front, needs time to recover from its move.

Oh...there's a lot of work..........yet to be done.
And that does not even address the light bulb preferences and trials.

But.........I'm getting here.


----------



## sanj

When I set up the 1600l tank found the same with the ATI fixtures...far more powerful than what I had previously experianced with T5 units. So much so I had to raise the units 18" above the water line on a 28" deep tank. 

Suffice to say with these units few people would need to be concerned whether they are getting enough PAR over deep tanks.


----------



## sanj

Tom,

have you found any particular arrangement of T5s that optimise fish colours. I have tended to place the more red/pink tube (Arcadia plant pro) towards the front an whiter tubes towards the back. 

Sometimes i think if lighting fixtures were angled to catch more of the fish sides it would make more of thier colouration.

Is the Aquawave red an ATI tube? i just get the led brand when it google it? 

BTW your praecox look healthy, are they by any chance the descendents of the "Pagai" strain that were wild caught in 2008? I think Gary Lange brought them to the USA. However judging from the photos (which can be misleading) the reds on the fins should pop more. These fish are far more vibrant and healthy than what has been mass bred in the trade over the years. The stock we get here in the UK is not very healthy.


----------



## Emyr

Love that Eriocaulon! Going to get some for my new set up!


----------



## plantbrain

It's(Erio cinerum) got to be the easiest least troublesome plant in the display.


----------



## plantbrain

sanj said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> have you found any particular arrangement of T5s that optimise fish colours. I have tended to place the more red/pink tube (Arcadia plant pro) towards the front an whiter tubes towards the back.
> 
> Sometimes i think if lighting fixtures were angled to catch more of the fish sides it would make more of thier colouration.
> 
> Is the Aquawave red an ATI tube? i just get the led brand when it google it?
> 
> BTW your praecox look healthy, are they by any chance the descendents of the "Pagai" strain that were wild caught in 2008? I think Gary Lange brought them to the USA. However judging from the photos (which can be misleading) the reds on the fins should pop more. These fish are far more vibrant and healthy than what has been mass bred in the trade over the years. The stock we get here in the UK is not very healthy.



Well, the ATI mix with the Blue specials and the purple really helps some blue colors, and the pink to red bulbs do also for reds etc, but you go too far, and things look weird, I suggest you just try and see what you like, this is not a cheap endeavor though :!: 

Bulbs are not free or try before you buy.

I made some interesting light angles in some client's tanks to direct the LED's to do this fish highlighting.

Aquawave is some other brand, ATI is got good bulbs, but no red bulbs. URI makes a crazy super red sun bulb, a bit freaky looking.

I like the Aquaflora/rosette type bulbs and mix of mostly higher color temp white/blues and a purple.
I'm still playing around though. 

I had some REAL nice red's but had some infected fish that where much lower grade, I've lost many of those at this point, medicated food has done nothing. I've lost two of the nicer reds which where never infected prior. I cannot catch these fish without a complete 95% water change and tank break down.

I may have to do that, new healthy fish I can get.
Just VERY hard to catch and remove, some open sores and dropsy like patterns, and some bloat, swim bladder issues.
Tried 2 different antibiotics but nothing has worked thus far.

I get that fixed, then I might see about some of the breeders and get them directly from them, these came from a  wholesaler, the 1st batch was lousy. The 2nd was nice.


----------



## plantbrain

sanj said:
			
		

> When I set up the 1600l tank found the same with the ATI fixtures...far more powerful than what I had previously experianced with T5 units. So much so I had to raise the units 18" above the water line on a 28" deep tank.
> 
> Suffice to say with these units few people would need to be concerned whether they are getting enough PAR over deep tanks.



These have the dim controller, so I can adjust the intensity without having to raise the lights or add light spill into my home, which I hate a great deal, I also use less energy since I'm not running at full power draw, and keeping the lights much farther away than need be, but......the sunpower w dimmers are not cheap, so there's a price for that.


----------



## sanj

If you were UK based I would have given you some "pagai village" praecox I am breeding. However they are also being bred in the USA, just try and get them from breeders. Antibiotics usually only have limited success on myco infections. I think some breeders sell their fish on aquabid, we dont have that sort of thing here, at least not one that is successfull.

I am going to using Pacific Sun led (Polish company) lighting on a new set up, it also uses reds and blues, will be interesting to see. Ill take par readings too.

Unfortunately my ATI pendants are pre dimmable versions...a little frustrating that there does not seem to be a retro fit option to add this functionality.

Thanks for the feed back.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Hello Tom,
Thanks for updating journals so often first of all. They are amazing as always. You are a master of colors   
I wanted to ask if you could post some pictures of your sump and explain what has to be considered to minimize co2 loses in planted tanks using sump filtration. I would like to change to sump in our office 300L tank to get experience before moving to much larger tank. Too tired of topping up water and removing limescale/fighting water biofilm.
Many thanks in advance.


----------



## Mark Webb

I somehow missed this Tom - beautiful scape and the Fire Shrimp are stunning! Are they real


----------



## plantbrain

Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> Hello Tom,
> Thanks for updating journals so often first of all. They are amazing as always. You are a master of colors
> I wanted to ask if you could post some pictures of your sump and explain what has to be considered to minimize co2 loses in planted tanks using sump filtration. I would like to change to sump in our office 300L tank to get experience before moving to much larger tank. Too tired of topping up water and removing limescale/fighting water biofilm.
> Many thanks in advance.



I'm hardly a master of colors as many Dutch scapers have long long done this same contrast with both textures and color, shades and growth habit. Might be a new or different grouping or species, but the idea is not new. 

Sump is here:




You can see the tape that seals the top wet/dry chamber on the right side, while the open part of the sump is unsealed, sort of the same as the tank itself.


----------



## plantbrain

Mark Webb said:
			
		

> I somehow missed this Tom - beautiful scape and the Fire Shrimp are stunning! Are they real



They are actually quite nice for this scape.
I've put in some effort to cull out the lower grades to keep them nice, if you do not, they will revert.


----------



## plantbrain

The right side is going to get a rework this weeke/end etc.

I'll move the Red pantanal one row over next to the large Erio type 3 which recovered nicely away from hungry Fire shrimp, we will see if it stays in good shape or not.

Then the Tonina will move to the Pantanal's spot.





Not sure what to do with the Tonina Lotus blossom, I like the plant, but cannot keep it close to the normal Tonina(which is a better fit for this tank in general).
T. lotus blossom is a neat type however, so I'm very relucant to part with it.

I have some error in a plant order, I was shipped A gracilius but got Nesaea crassilius, which is frankly rarer and a very nice red plant, so I may move the L peruiesis out and over the far L and add the Nesaea in that spot to allow it to fill in nice and fully. Then eventually get the Ammannia for the rear(I can fill in back there with most anything really).

This will add another Red row and keep with the motif of every other one red and different leaf shape and texture.

The new bulbs have turned the D diandra very red. I have some H hottoniifolia in the rear corner, but I might just remove it and allow the weird bright green plant I keep forgetting the name of (genus starts with a "P"). the grouping got too small I feel and "collectortisy".

The wood is new and I've yet to reposition this side, but I shall in the week or so. The wood will soon blend in well with the other wood and I need to replant the UG on that side, it's about 4" deep right now.











The corner has the Red lower growing hygro which is a nice low maintenance plant. It'll take a month or two to fill in in the darker corner. 

I'll need to thin some thing over on the Far Left side also, but most of the species will still stay as is.

2 biggest issues are if/where to keep: Downoi and the Lotus Blossom.
2 very nice plant species I'd rather keep.

If they can find a suitable home, I'm 80-90% of the way there, then the rest is just pruning and less moving stuff around and trying out various species.

BTW, light is only on for 7 hours, and it takes about 1 hour for the 2x54 W to come on and hit 100%, then the other 6 bulbs come on and it takes them another 1 hour to hit 100%, then at the end, both sets slowly drop off over 1 hour from 100% down to 0%.

So the lights are only on full blast for 5 hours, the CO2 comes on when the 1st pair is warming up, so it's cranked well when the full set starts to fire up.
The CO2 goes off about 45 min before the last bit of light hits the plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Replanted the UG:






Going to allow some of the stems to recover and sprout new top growth, then fill in this section more, removed the Gloss rug finally.


----------



## LondonDragon

Any reason for replanting it Tom, it was looking great and healthy  
Amazing tank btw, nice to see some great reds in the tank


----------



## Radik

I want ashy pipeworth and tonina, I really like them a lot.


----------



## plantbrain

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Any reason for replanting it Tom, it was looking great and healthy
> Amazing tank btw, nice to see some great reds in the tank



120$ in plant sales reason enough?

It starts to pile up if I do not mow it like a grass lawn, this means I cannot sell anything also and have to net out the trimmings.

I can go either way with the methods, and deciding which method to trim a particularly species, and why.....is a personal matter for many folks, perhaps you do not want to sell the plants, then it will matter less, perhaps once every 3-4 months, it's good to get in there and straighten things out well? 

I try a few different things for plant trim methods, then decide what works best for a particular species, this does not imply that it is the best/only recommended way, just for myself, for this tank right now........it is.


----------



## plantbrain

Radik said:
			
		

> I want ashy pipeworth and tonina, I really like them a lot.



I'm really bothered by not having a good location and space for the lotus blossom Tonina though.

I have 3 species of Erio's(well type 1 E setaceum and type 3, might be the same species) so that's plenty.
I wanted to go with the Tonina due to the brighter green color vs the Syngonanthus genus which I've avoided for a person reason, I've had way too much of it in the past. 

There is a neat smaller short version, but I grow all these together some time ago.
Manaus and Belem and the new "ururapes" is nice.

There is a Piluaria americana I'd like to get.

Also considered some rows of Isoetes, this looks pretty nice an they are easy to care for.


----------



## Radik

I can't find tonina belem anywhere they are really nice plants but harder to grow. Where u got your erios from I know there is also some ashy pipe  with red color inside some japan version it looks just stunning but never seen it for sale.


----------



## plantbrain

Radik said:
			
		

> I can't find tonina belem anywhere they are really nice plants but harder to grow. Where u got your erios from I know there is also some ashy pipe  with red color inside some japan version it looks just stunning but never seen it for sale.



I am honestly not as up to date with the various species of these more prostrate type Erios, nor do I think many of the sellers are either, most are coming in from Asian sellers and then end up here on the West coast of the USA, mostly because we have a large Asian Population here. 

I do not find them hard to grow at all, the Sygnonanthus belem and mananus etc are tougher to grow IME/IMO, Tonnia is a little less so, but harder to propagate new stems.


Still, these are some of the so called hardest stem plants to grow available, and I have them all in one tank.
No issues other than cutting them and trimming them often 8)


----------



## plantbrain

Tonight I did a good sized hack to the rear section and moves some of the greens farther back and then pulled some of the reds up to the wall of weeds in the midground, this should add more red and more contrast with the green species in the front/mid ground area.


----------



## plantbrain

New ideas and changes:

Once some of the plants for the rows grow out a bit more, I'll allow a wall of red in the first layer in the background plants, mostly R wallichii and macrandra.

Right where the wood sort of divides the tank, right behind that.

I need to pull the Hydrothrix back as it is rather weedy and it clashes with the similar Erio type 3(giant E. setaceum). I thought this would look good and it does at the first wall of weeds in the back section, but the tank is more about color, so a wall of red might be even more "flashy". the Hydrothrix can be in the back and still do quite well and form a thicket easily.

This will add much more red to the front of the tank and add a nice wild mauve color not present in the other red plants in the foreground rows.
So it serves a couple of purposes in the color scheme and macrandra is a weed, so may as well put it.... to work.

The large Erio type 3 is doing well/much better this time. I am feeding the Fire shrimp a lot and the plant was much better acclimated this time, so the shrimp seemed to attack only wimpy plants, but not a healthy Erio setacem, I also have the normal type 1 Erio so it was NOT the shrimp, it was the health of the plant and feeding the shrimp well. It can be hard to tell if it was or was not the shrimp, feeding, or just the overall condition when the plants came in, or my own environmental changes perhaps. I cannot say, but these would be my guesses. So both of these types are now growing very well in the tank and are multiplying quickly. Ah why not blame the shrimp for my issues eh??

This is good news because I wanted a large showy fine needled plant like the Erio type 3. I need to find a hole for the Type 1 Erio now. Likely will have to scratch one off the list of plants in the tank. I likely will also do the same for the Tonina lotus blossom. Just cannot see anywhere to place them.
Hydrothrix will do fine in the rear section, but the Erios are not as likely to do as well back there. Nor the Tonina lotus blossom.

I bought some so called mini Bolbitus. I think it survives underwater, but it does not grow much if at all. I placed it in an optimal spot, has hardly produced any growth in almost 2 months.

The Low grow Red Hygro is starting to creep along the sediment, and will fill in I guess in about 1-2 months very nicely in the L rear corner.
I placed the Nesaea crassiculius in the rear, it was stunted when I got it and some decent side shoots formed. Not sure if it's worth my efforts to coax it back or just toss it. It'd have to be one of those foreground row plants to look really nice. Those spots are pretty much filled.

I'll stick with some Ammannia gracilius for that spot in the rear.
The Mermaid weed looked okay, but it was not as bushy in feel and the Ammannia will add a nicer look IME.
So getting closer to the goal, and adding more color and keeping the contrast, working through which plant species works best in each spot relative to the other.

The other plant up for color consideration is the Nesaea pedicillata which I've not kept for about 10 years now, a nice yellow longer narrow leaf might find a home in the rear middle of the tank or behind the wood truck perhaps.

Worth a try.


----------



## plantbrain

did some hacking and moving:














I'll end up with some thick groups in a couple of weeks, but things are moving along. I moved some R macrandra so it will grow into a red mauve wall, I'll fatten up the R wallichii in the corner. Removed a few stragglers: Nesaea crassiculius, Mermaid weed, Crypt parva. I might add the C. parva back, but perhaps on the other Right hand side.  

I moved the Tonina's on opposite sides of the tank so they do not clash. The stumps I have left after the sales will grow in pretty well in this location. They also look good against the Fissidens and I plan to keep them fairly short and make it a nice thick forest of stems, but not so tall, they distract or hide the fissidens or Erios behind them.

Some of the groups are a bit messy, but as they grow out and get another trim or two, these will even up nicely.

I'm very close to having the species and their locations finalized.
It has taken awhile and there's still some growing and trimming to do be done to fill the spots in better. I did finally get some Ammannia gracilius from a local so no matter what, I have the species set I want/need. The Ammannia will look awesome where I have it planned in the rear. A much better choice than the mermaid weed or the Nesaea. 

The only other plant, also the same local guy has it, is the N pedicillata, a nicer red/yellow color might lend well to some spots.

I also found a good holding spot for all those errant pieces of Fissidens moss that I keep finding everywhere: the tops of the driftwood that poke out, they can easily lay on that, get enough water, a ton of light and grows very well there. After 3-4 weeks, I'll pull them off and sell the moss. Simple, clean, easy and out of the way.


----------



## Eboeagles

I've just had a great Sunday morning reading through this after rather neglecting it!

Inspirational, informative and above all so vivid! 

But with all that colour I'm totally smitten with the Erio Cinereum - I've seen it before on the web but never worked out what it was. 

Anyone selling that in the UK? Difficult to grow? I can't see much info online. I see it's from Australia, likes cooler waters and quite high light and once it flowers it dies.


----------



## plantbrain

Never had any issues with it myself. The temps are pretty warm, 27-29C.
Never had it flower. 
Should be a few people selling it in the UK I'd think.


----------



## keymaker

plantbrain said:
			
		

>


This is great. Starts to look like a beautiful reef tank with lots of corals.  8) Never thought I can have that feeling with freshwater tank colors.


----------



## plantbrain

Yea, it is a bit gaudy eh 

Damn yanks, we are good at that

















A few good trims and grow out and the front rows will be up to snuff at least.  I need to grow out the Ammannia more in the rear, but the R macrandra is coming along well, the older lower leaves are pretty pale, but a few trims later, they will be all red and make a nice mid wall in the back there. 

One trick is to allow the plants to grow up and hit the surface for about a week or so, then replant. I have not yet done this with this tank, but plan to later.

The Downoi is making a come back, all I had were trimmed off bottom stumps, so it's come a long long way and will fill in decently. 

Some of the other plants will grow in nicely and I've found using a turkey baster works well to clean the Erio cinreums' middle parts and keep those cleaner.  

I am pondering adding the Red serpae tetras to this tank and moving the Rainbows. The tetras will eat the smaller shrimp for sure though, which I thought the rainbows would, but..they have not yet.

You can see part of the wall of Red macrandra and where I am going with this idea.


----------



## clonitza

Finally water gets a bit clear . Looks great Tom, nice to see a 3D dutch scape.

Thanks for posting,
Mike


----------



## plantbrain

I trimmed before the water change instead this time.


----------



## George Farmer

Those reds are mental! The most intense I think I've ever seen.  

I assume this a a combination of the actual plant health and colour rendition from the T5 lamps?

What are your thoughts on limiting nitrogen to induce reds, Tom?  Your tank makes this theory sound nonsensical!


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Those reds are mental! The most intense I think I've ever seen.
> 
> I assume this a a combination of the actual plant health and colour rendition from the T5 lamps?
> 
> What are your thoughts on limiting nitrogen to induce reds, Tom?  Your tank makes this theory sound nonsensical!



The irony is I'm the one that suggested and showed that low N enhances reds, but through stress, not good growth/horticulture, but that's(N stress) not what is going on here.

I'd say you are correct, good overall health and care of the plants..........and the lighting is rather wild.
I have tried quite a few different bulb combo's, and ..........I can get much more intense reds than these actually........if I loaded up with the redder bulbs and used the URI sun and then the Coralife colormax's etc.......then the reds would look even more intense and reflective a large %.

Low color temp bulbs will reflect more red.

But, this tank is well fertilizers at a rich ppm, roughly 45ppm as week as NO3 and then there is ample N from the soil still, but this is declining now. Fish/shrimp are well fed also, so there's at least another 5-15ppm a week there as NH4/NO3.

PO4 is sitting at 5ppm 3x a week, Fe as proxy for all traces: 0.4ppm dosed 4-5x a week.
K will be over 50ppm added a week.

Water changes are at 50% 2x a week for now.


----------



## plantbrain

Did a real nice big hack today, I love this because it means I do not need to do much for awhile and the other plants get plenty of light, CO2 and the tank's flow patterns are nice.

I'll get a pic up perhaps Sat evening.

The C parva is likely going to be removed finally.
I'll allow the Downoi to trace over that direction like the Rios do.

I plan on keeping the L peruensis lower and use a combo of topping and uprooting/shortening other stems. I also do this now with the Ludwigia "red" as well.

I'd tried the Hydrothrix in a pretty low light region that was blocked by the main wood and it stared to rot a little, so I pulled that and like will return the Myrio matogrossense and allow the Bolbitus to fill out around the bottom base. The elephant nose double trunk loves that spot to hide during the day. 

So now it's a wait and watch the weeds grow for awhile game.
As they fill in, I'll fatten up some groups and just maintain others......
Each trim is one step closer and better to the goal. Even the goal is rather open ended and experimental, which is nice for a change.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## viktorlantos

Beauty colors Tom, i also kind of like the fact that you try so many different plants with it. Only from this tank itself you could write a study, how the plants form and shape under this condition.  

Great journal


----------



## plantbrain

It has been a fun tank and I've been careful NOT to change too much, too fast. There is some structure and I've gotten a decent feel for it for this scape. You can also see the time line between changes, grow out time frames etc, different trim methods etc. 

I've out of town for a few days, so after a week, I'll be interested to see what the tank will look like, I should get some pics up Monday or so.


----------



## plantbrain

Before I left for a week, the tank looked like this:








Well, had about 6-8" growth of many of the species after 1 week away.





45 min later after trimming:








Some of the Erios did not like less ferts this week and decided to flower.............supposedly the kiss of death for them.

FTS prior to trim:




Low grow red hygro is doing nice in the corner under low light.




Erio type 3 took off since I hacked everything else back good. Even have extra to sell.





I have not trimmed this plant yet, might wait another 3-4 days. This is after I trimmed everything else, then said furrrgetit, doing a water change(so the water is hazy here):





Took pics, then did a trim, took more pics, then a water change, then took pics again.


----------



## faizal

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Sump is here:



Tom,...I am truly sorry to be asking very basic questions here but could you kindly explain how this whole set up works please? And where is your needle wheel pump situated in that picture?


----------



## plantbrain

Goes into the return pump.


----------



## fandango

Stunning pictures of always evolving tank! Very inspiring!!


----------



## hinch

when you trim the tall stems do you uproot trim and just replant the tips again or do you just hack the tops off?

reason I ask is I have some tall stems that are badly in need of trimming but I don't fancy uprooting them all as they've finally taken root enough to not be dug up by a plec but just chopping the tops will leave me with a few large leafs as opposed to the new tops which have lots of smaller leafs


----------



## Westyggx

Wow the colours in that tank are amazing!


----------



## plantbrain

hinch said:
			
		

> when you trim the tall stems do you uproot trim and just replant the tips again or do you just hack the tops off?
> 
> reason I ask is I have some tall stems that are badly in need of trimming but I don't fancy uprooting them all as they've finally taken root enough to not be dug up by a plec but just chopping the tops will leave me with a few large leafs as opposed to the new tops which have lots of smaller leafs



You can try either method and maybe some mixes/hybrid methods for trimming, I basically use what works best with each species.

I'm not just growing, I'm trying to scape and assess which plants will be suited over the longer term. Some do not do well with topping alone, some do better uprooted and then replanted.

I often will trim say 1/4 of the tank once a week vs say 50-100%, but...sometimes I'm more motivated than other times. If I trim a lot, I also do more frequent water changes. Sometimes 2x a week 50%-60% etc.


----------



## toadass

Love it, great tank Tom. When a Dutch is done as well as this it's got to be the best style of scaping IMO.


----------



## viktorlantos

I start to think you're using plastic plants  The whole tank looks like something from a tale or so  
Just kidding.   Never seen such a colorful tank before. I keep coming back to see what you do with this Tom.

Beauty garden


----------



## plantbrain

Well, it has become pretty gaudy looking with the wall of red plants, but time to get the contrast and color mix going more.

I need to trim the plants back BETTER the next 2-3 trims, this will give a nice slope through the "front to back" view.

It's very easy to see from the top of the tank view, but does not come out as nice if you look through the front panel directly head on.

Some of the trimming is higher or ratty because I'm still trying to fatten and fill in some species more.

I liked the other plant species I had prior that were in the rows like the Downoi because they stay short and are easier to trim in those locations. 

I might move a few things around and see. In the Rear Right, I might let the P stellata grow out and maybe Ammannia if it looks good there, and maybe Neasea pedicillata. Something with a more yellow or purple color. Or perhaps Crypt usteriana. Lace plant perhaps also.

Lots of spots are "pesky", but I'm getting there spot by spot, little by little.

Good thing is it will teach me about a lot of new species I have not typically kept for many years or not at all(Ludwigia red, Erio setaceum type 3, H sibthorpides, Tonina lotus blossom etc).

So I'll have a library of contrast and a color schemes.


Toadass, this really is not a Dutch scape, hence my reluctance to name it as such. It has maybe several methods and styles from Dutch influence, but........ a little NA is added and it's not NA either. I'm not sure I could effectively do a correct Dutch scape. Never tried.


----------



## gex23

I have to say, this tank is absolutely incredible. The contrasting textures, colours, vibrancy and overall formal layout which accentuates the hard scape is inspirational


----------



## plantbrain

I'm looking at the tank pondering some more change and moves, I pulled the Ech vesuvius out to the side where the D diandra was and just kept a little of that in the background.

I trimmed some errant stems that were a tad too tall.

Shortened both Tonina.

I have several Bucephalandras coming in, but these will end up on the wood somewhere.
Still waiting on the Ammannia. I might use Nesaea also.

Still mulling over some changes that add better contrast, ease of care, more uniformity over the whole tank scape.
You'd think I'd be done with it by now


----------



## plantbrain

Made some changes, still gots more to do.
This is what it looks like after I trim and mid and background plants.

Ideally, the green plants in the far back would be 3-4" taller and then the rest of the R macrandra would be okay, then trim the color rows in the front down about 2" lower.


----------



## Ady34

Hi Plantbrain,
this tank looks beautiful.
It must be great to grow plants so well that it acts like a plant nursery, which in effect will make the tank more than pay for itself!
A few Q's if you dont mind,
Is that an ATI Sunpower dimmable light unit you have? If so have you found it agreeable and would you recommend them... clearly your plants are thriving, so its doing the job! Do you find the dimmer useful in plant growing or is it more for a more natural morning/evening transition to/from full lighting. Ive been looking at the non dimmable option and am interested as to your thoughts on the usefulness of the dimmer. What sort of bulbs are you using also?
The wood hardscaping is fantastic and its nice to also see a more formally planted scape amidst so many more 'nature' orientated tanks on the forum.
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## plantbrain

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Is that an ATI Sunpower dimmable light unit you have?



Yes



> Do you find the dimmer useful in plant growing or is it more for a more natural morning/evening transition to/from full lighting. Ive been looking at the non dimmable option and am interested as to your thoughts on the usefulness of the dimmer. What sort of bulbs are you using also?
> The wood hardscaping is fantastic and its nice to also see a more formally planted scape amidst so many more 'nature' orientated tanks on the forum.
> Cheerio,
> Ady.



I'm not sure that the dimmer adds any real difference in growth vs not...........but..........the CO2 takes about 20-40 minutes to ramp up........and the light follows this same vector. The CO2 goes off about 20 minutes before the lights are 100% off. Same thing there.

Unlike a manual dimmer, this will automatically slow and progressively dim/brighten any of the 2 channels, this makes the unit much more useful. The controller is rather easy once you figure it out initially.

I have a host of bulb brands and color types, I'm still experimenting with color combos. There is a reflectance aspect to this also, since I view the bulb reflection off the water itself. The colors reflect and make the leaves look different also. Red plant bulbs will make the leaves look more red. Too much red and the tank looks freaky. Too little, not much red color. Same with the Blue(real nice for fish though), purple/violet, various white bubs, Green bulbs and daylight and mixes of these.

Coralife colormax
ATI blue special/purple
URI Red Sun(Extremely red)
Wavepoint: reef sun, daylight, purple
Ge starcoat (Nice crisper midday bul, 6500K
Zoo med plant and then their 10,000K type of bulb
Giesemann powerchrome midday and then the aquafloras
SPS daylight
Spectralux green, daylight and red
There's a few others I have, but those are the main bulbs.

Dimmers are okay where you CANNOT raise or lower the hood to reduce or increase intensity.
Another good reason/application: You want the same spread of light, just not all that intensity.

Example: this tank above is over 75cm front to back depth..........you'd need either a light with lots of bulbs or two separate fixtures. Well, say your goal is a lower intensity, but you want low light over a wide region? Or perhaps you want the color choices with mixing 4-8 different bulbs vs say 2.

Hummph, I guess there are a lot more uses for manual dimmers than I though, but those same things can be done with the dim controller. The dim controller really makes the light much nicer than anything in the USA markets for aquariums.


----------



## Ady34

Thanks for the informative reply,


			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> Dimmers are okay where you CANNOT raise or lower the hood to reduce or increase intensity.
> Another good reason/application: You want the same spread of light, just not all that intensity.
> 
> Example: this tank above is over 75cm front to back depth..........you'd need either a light with lots of bulbs or two separate fixtures. Well, say your goal is a lower intensity, but you want low light over a wide region? Or perhaps you want the color choices with mixing 4-8 different bulbs vs say 2.



I can certainly see the value in this respect, the wider the tank the wider the light spread needed but as you say not necessarily the intensity, so a dimming option is good to manage light. Also the more bulbs, the more colour options.
I know Mark Evans uses a giesemann light unit and has noted the quality of the reflectors in spreading light correctly. Do you feel the reflectors in this unit offer any advantages, it looks like in the first image in your latest update that the light is concentrated/directed very well, reducing 'glare' issues, especially with the unit raised higher from the water surface. 
Im currently only using 2 t5 ho lights in a single hagen glo unit over my tank but am finding the light spread to be poor. I started looking into adding another glo unit alongside my existing one to achieve a more even spread, but then was concerned about the intensity. I suppose this is where the dimmable units are favourable.
Ill maybe research light intensity drop off a little further to see if its feasable to simply raise my current light unit to get more 'spread' across the width of the tank without loosing too much depth. 
Thanks,
Ady.


----------



## plantbrain

Ady34 said:
			
		

> I can certainly see the value in this respect, the wider the tank the wider the light spread needed but as you say not necessarily the intensity, so a dimming option is good to manage light. Also the more bulbs, the more colour options.
> I know Mark Evans uses a giesemann light unit and has noted the quality of the reflectors in spreading light correctly. Do you feel the reflectors in this unit offer any advantages, it looks like in the first image in your latest update that the light is concentrated/directed very well, reducing 'glare' issues, especially with the unit raised higher from the water surface.
> Im currently only using 2 t5 ho lights in a single hagen glo unit over my tank but am finding the light spread to be poor. I started looking into adding another glo unit alongside my existing one to achieve a more even spread, but then was concerned about the intensity. I suppose this is where the dimmable units are favourable.
> Ill maybe research light intensity drop off a little further to see if its feasable to simply raise my current light unit to get more 'spread' across the width of the tank without loosing too much depth.
> Thanks,
> Ady.



I use to be a fan of Giesemann bulbs, I have always liked their fixtures, but they are not common over here, mostly the HQI's etc. ATI has a well established niche in the USA marine cult. The ATI fixture is great compared to the Tek, which is well rates also, but the ATI frankly stomps the piss out of those.

ATI bulbs are nice, but they do not offer a red/pink type of plant bulb, but the Giesemann aqua floras are nice, so are the Zoomed 5000K plant bulb, and some other brands. For standard white daylight, the GE starcoats are hard to beat and 1/2 the cost.

In your case, the 2 light fixtures might be better, depends on how much $ you want to waste on the hobby and the look etc. Some people are cheap and some buy ADA, I'm in between.

The deal with the added lighting: simply have 1 fixture on at any one time, maybe 30 min overlap if you wish, then have the other light go off. This will give you ample spread, without any difference in intensity. Also save on the electric bill.

So say run 1 of the lights for 4 hours and then the other comes on and runs for another 4 hours.


----------



## Ady34

plantbrain said:
			
		

> In your case, the 2 light fixtures might be better, depends on how much $ you want to waste on the hobby and the look etc. Some people are cheap and some buy ADA, I'm in between.





			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> The deal with the added lighting: simply have 1 fixture on at any one time, maybe 30 min overlap if you wish, then have the other light go off. This will give you ample spread, without any difference in intensity. Also save on the electric bill.
> 
> So say run 1 of the lights for 4 hours and then the other comes on and runs for another 4 hours.



Thanks for the advice, its much appreciated. However ive done some more research and have decided, as a bit of a beginner, for now to stick with just the single glo unit i have. Im getting decent results, and still feel i need to concentrate on improving c02 and fert regimes first. Once i have these skills, ill maybe think about more light, but would definitely only buy one of the more versatile and controllable lighting units such as the ATI which is well priced for the spec.
Thanks again for the advice its much appreciated.
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## plantbrain

Wise move Ady, still........you'd be okay as long as the 2 lights do not over lap........being both on at the same time.
Since you are not adding more light, just spreading it out.

Another manual way to to simply slide the hood back midway through the light period.
Even if it's only 1 hour at the end of the day, this will have a significant effect.

ATI lighting is nice, but it is for the more hardcore plantie.


----------



## plantbrain

I uprooted all the Erios and the Tonia Lotus blossom, all the other Tonina, all the pantanal, all the D diandra, some of the other groups also.

So I did a lot of work on the tank actually, so it's pretty clear less than 1 hour later. If someone think they can do all that and make it clear with ADA AS, I'd like to see them try:thumbsup:

I raised the Pellia up and it is on the Left side in front of the Ech augustifolia. "vesuvius". 
I need to figure out how to better manage the R macrandra or reduce the stand. I'll need to figure out a better location for the R wallichii I think. Hydrothrix grows well in the back but parts melt due to a lack of light after a lot of growth starts to block the light. 


The Erios on the right side and Tonina lotus blossom are much better now.
I think I've produced 3x more Tonina lotus blossom vs the normal type, which I've only managed to double over nearly 2x longer time.
So Tonina lotus blossom is a better plant for cultivation and sales. I have nearly 50 stems/shoots now. About 40 for the Pantanal.

I'm also thinking about doing something different with the Downoi and putting Elatine triandra like I had the Gloss before.
But I need a good home for the Downoi before I go that direction.


----------



## faizal

That's looking lovely  . Tom,..I'm sure you would have had people asking this question up to no end but,.."Do red colored plants need more light to do well. I keep hearing people saying that the red coloured plants have less chlorophyll therefore they require higher lighting intensities ( and hence better co2 management) to do well . What PAR levels would you advocate for colored plants please?


----------



## plantbrain

If they have less chl, they simply grow slower, the lower Chl is not a requirement for higher light, if you look at most red plants that are ornamental, they are low light. Desert plants are mostly green, there is not one single red plant in the Mojave, the Sonoran, or the Colorado desert. They are all green or white due to hairly trichromes. 

Note, this tank was using about 1/4 the light I have on it now. The difference is mostly the plants grow much faster.
I also am using different bulbs, which make the plants appear redder to the eye. 

There is no trick to red plants, if you can grow green plants very well, the same should apply to red plants.
Red plants actually do not have a slower rate of growth(aquatics anyway) than green plants, they simply have more Red pigment is all which mask the green.

BBA is red also, but the black colored pigments mask the red color.
These pigments can still direct light and absorb.

I'd not try and assume there is some magic trick to red plants.
It is a tragic search of failure. Just focus on good over all care and plant growth.

40-50 umol does the trick for most plants, some really thrive at higher levels, but all shoud grow at 50umol.
The higher the light, the more CO2 demand and the more trouble dosign and trimmign becomes, and if you neglect things, the tank will get algae or the plants will look very poor very quick, at lower light, this is much easier to manage. 

I get away with this tank by reducing the intensity and only run full power for about 4 hours.

I treat red plants the exact same way I do green ones.
Always have.


----------



## Radik

Why is your tank always cloudy? Do you do photos after u mess up with it or just Amazonia taking piss?


----------



## faizal

Thank you , Tom. That was something i had always wanted know. Tom,..another question please    & i am sorry if this is off topic but what is your opinion on the siesta period? I keep hearing that it helps the plants to "fool"  algae & also helps prevent the depletion of co2 in a NON CO2 set up.

Does it really work? Or will 6 continious hours of low PAR lighting intensity such as  20 at substrate & 40 at water surface ( during a new tank's start up phase) be equally effective considering of course all the other parameters are well managed sensibly?


----------



## plantbrain

Radik said:
			
		

> Why is your tank always cloudy? Do you do photos after u mess up with it or just Amazonia taking piss?



Because 20 minute ago I pulled up a huge amount on plant biomass and roots that had not been moved for about 6 months

The water is quite clean relative to where it was prior

I can post pics tomorrow and you will see the tank is much clearer.

I typically take pics right after I mess with the tank. Sometimes right before as the case last week with all the over growth.

There, you can see just how clear the water is.


----------



## plantbrain

faizal said:
			
		

> Thank you , Tom. That was something i had always wanted know. Tom,..another question please    & i am sorry if this is off topic but what is your opinion on the siesta period? I keep hearing that it helps the plants to "fool"  algae & also helps prevent the depletion of co2 in a NON CO2 set up.
> 
> Does it really work? Or will 6 continious hours of low PAR lighting intensity such as  20 at substrate & 40 at water surface ( during a new tank's start up phase) be equally effective considering of course all the other parameters are well managed sensibly?



Siesta might offer a little help in a non CO2 system for plant growth, but it does little for algae.
It does nothing for CO2 enriched tanks unless you already had issues and poor CO2 enrichment.

I think you are running the light too low, 30-40 is decent at the bottom, the top could be much higher or just a little more depending on the tank's height and distances from the bulbs.


----------



## Radik

Yes please I do not remember crystal clear picture seen in this thread so do me a favor Tom thanks


----------



## plantbrain

Radik said:
			
		

> Yes please I do not remember crystal clear picture seen in this thread so do me a favor Tom thanks








Last set of pics.........


----------



## roadmaster

I am sorry,I cannot look anymore at photos in this thread, for it makes me want to yank all my plant's out of low tech tank that's been doing well and is jungle like ,and start over  
Hmm, I have a 20 gal sitting empty,,perhaps I shall attempt such a beautimous tank, and at same time,,purge myself of the mass of info accumulated here and apply it, before my punkin size head explodes from the inertia  exhibited by myself thus far. :text-coolphotos:


----------



## Radik

Thanks Tom , second one is very clear did you play with some color saturation on it?


----------



## alzak

Can someone told me what kind of plants they are in red circles ??


----------



## Radik

bottom is Ashy pipewort Eriocaulon cinereum.. very difficult and requires low KH a one of very few plants. Even emersed growth in Asia can be problem when conditions are not right during year I heard.

top is Tonina fluviatilis same category as above. and right one is Eriocaulon Setaceum I think also same category as above.


----------



## sWozzAres

The tank seems very artificial in that every type of plant has a dedicated area with little or no overlap which is emphasized by the contrasting colour/texture and gives the impression that the plants are plastic. It's also infested with shrimp!   

I don't want to come across as a git, but that is the overwhelming impression I get when I see the pictures. Perhaps my aquascape compass is pointing in the wrong direction.   

Still, I have to say that individually, the plants look amazing


----------



## plantbrain

Radik said:
			
		

> Thanks Tom , second one is very clear did you play with some color saturation on it?



I use gamma reduction to take off the high light wash out, this clears up some of the haze. Some sharpening. Not much else. The bulbs I use reflect red and blue real well, but not green as much. I have some green bulbs I have not yet tried. The color reflectance is also different from above than in the tank at a 90 degree angle. Tops of the leaves are more red in general.


----------



## plantbrain

Radik said:
			
		

> bottom is Ashy pipewort Eriocaulon cinereum.. very difficult and requires low KH a one of very few plants. Even emersed growth in Asia can be problem when conditions are not right during year I heard.
> 
> top is Tonina fluviatilis same category as above. and right one is Eriocaulon Setaceum I think also same category as above.



Yes, except the part where those plants are hard, they are quite easy in this tank.
Erios would do well in my 180, but not the E setaceum and the Tonina. They seem to like shallow tanks and more lighting.


----------



## plantbrain

sWozzAres said:
			
		

> The tank seems very artificial in that every type of plant has a dedicated area with little or no overlap which is emphasized by the contrasting colour/texture and gives the impression that the plants are plastic. It's also infested with shrimp!
> 
> I don't want to come across as a git, but that is the overwhelming impression I get when I see the pictures. Perhaps my aquascape compass is pointing in the wrong direction.
> 
> Still, I have to say that individually, the plants look amazing



Well, the fact is, it is artificial. 

It's not a nature aquarium. 

Dutch style is not about making it look natural. It focuses on ordered groups, contrast and divisions between the groups etc. It is a harder method than nature style as far as the plants and their specific growth, which the hobbyists is often focused on, if hardscaping is more interesting, then Nature style will appeal more. If you like plant species and color/contrast, then a Dutch style might appeal more. This tank uses mostly dutch style, but it is not quite a dutch style tank either, it would do poorly in NBAT contest. I'm not sure what to call it.


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

>


This is an incredible display. 

It may not suit some tastes. Maybe too formal for many. However, it's probably the finest display of healthy aquarium plant growth anyone is likely to see on here.  

I actually like the relatively rigid layout - sure it's at odds with the Nature Aquarium concept but it's nice to see a refreshing and rather unique style like this.  The journal title is certainly accurate in its description... 

It's like it's forcing you to notice each species; their colours and textures provide maximum impact and visual feast to suppress anyone's appetite.  Almost like a freshwater equivalent to a reef.

I wish I had the time to maintain something like this!   

Kudos to you, Mr Barr. 

I'm having some aquascaping-enthusiast friends over this weekend and I'm hoping to run a video podcast.  Would you mind if this aquascape was one of the topics we discuss?


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an incredible display.
> 
> It may not suit some tastes. Maybe too formal for many. However, it's probably the finest display of healthy aquarium plant growth anyone is likely to see on here.
> 
> I actually like the relatively rigid layout - sure it's at odds with the Nature Aquarium concept but it's nice to see a refreshing and rather unique style like this.  The journal title is certainly accurate in its description...
> 
> It's like it's forcing you to notice each species; their colours and textures provide maximum impact and visual feast to suppress anyone's appetite.  Almost like a freshwater equivalent to a reef.
> 
> I wish I had the time to maintain something like this!
> 
> Kudos to you, Mr Barr.
> 
> I'm having some aquascaping-enthusiast friends over this weekend and I'm hoping to run a video podcast.  Would you mind if this aquascape was one of the topics we discuss?
Click to expand...


Surprisingly, it really does not take that long to care for. And I mess with it a lot as you can tell. But I do not make large changes rapidly, slow and steady pace.........wins the race. I wait 2-3 weeks rather than trying to redo everything. Too much disturbance I think gets many aquarist into trouble.  I also do use high light now, but I only did so with baby steps to make sure everything was good and then.......take the next step.

It might take me 10-20 min of time to trim the rows most weeks. The back ground, maybe 20 min.
I spend more time culling the lower grade Fire shrimp than I do trimming.

One might call the Dutch style a controlled collectoritus approach, but some Dutch tanks do strive for natural appearances also and they get more points for that.

I finally got my Ammannia gracilus and I think I'll move the Ludwigia peruinesis and replace with the Ammannia. 
It's got a nicer coloration that is different from the Rotala and Ludwigia.

The other nice thing is the eclectic array of species in this display.
I've not seen anyone scape with Erio setacuem except one tank locally, and never with the Type 3, very few with Tonia(maybe 3-5 tanks), none with Ludwigia red(but that's going to change) and Erio cinereum use in scaping is extremely limited, then add the R macrandra, L pantanal, UG etc.........S belem/manuas/urupese I'd considered by plant of folks scape with those......so Erio type 3 was a nice replacement for giant Ambulia which is more common and very ordered plant as well.

The tank is also nice as a rotating species collection, allowing me to sample and compare/contrast many species.
Nature style is a very poor method for doing that. Still, in the back ground of many Nature style, you can mix and match and try various stem species out also, but those backgrounds are much more Dutch, than they are nature style.
So there's cross over in both styles.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I'm having some aquascaping-enthusiast friends over this weekend and I'm hoping to run a video podcast.  Would you mind if this aquascape was one of the topics we discuss?



Sure, you can lift the pics and use them, they are public access/free etc.

Note, this is NOT a finished scape, I'm a ways out, maybe 3-6 months from that.


----------



## foxfish

I agree with George but would add - I think the tank is an amazing display of plant husbandry, the layout really shows off the tanks dimension by giving such depth of field.
I love the vivid colours & I think George is not far off with his comparison to an underwater reef but for me it more resembles a tidal rock pool!
I love the clean lines of plants & the neatness of design.


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm having some aquascaping-enthusiast friends over this weekend and I'm hoping to run a video podcast.  Would you mind if this aquascape was one of the topics we discuss?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, you can lift the pics and use them, they are public access/free etc.
> 
> Note, this is NOT a finished scape, I'm a ways out, maybe 3-6 months from that.
Click to expand...

Thanks, and yes, I realise that and will ensure the others do too...


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> 1.5 weeks post trimming.
> 
> Not bad recovery and VERY easy and less issues than uprooting and replanting methods.



Hey Tom is that Pogostemon Helferi over on the right ?  If so, thats awesome growth ! Looks a totally different plant to the tiny plantlets I got in my Tropica pots, but then its only been there a week.  Im guessing it will start to grow better when I have proper CO2 running in the tank  Im thoroughly enjoying revisiting this thread though


----------



## plantbrain

Antipofish said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.5 weeks post trimming.
> 
> Not bad recovery and VERY easy and less issues than uprooting and replanting methods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Tom is that Pogostemon Helferi over on the right ?  If so, thats awesome growth ! Looks a totally different plant to the tiny plantlets I got in my Tropica pots, but then its only been there a week.  Im guessing it will start to grow better when I have proper CO2 running in the tank  Im thoroughly enjoying revisiting this thread though
Click to expand...


Yes, that is Downoi, same thing, just the common name in Thailand where it is from.

You can see the stumps from about 2-3 weeks ago and then look at the size of some of them, last week. They have grown about 3x larger in that same time span. It will take some time for recovery to get this plant to really start growing well. Once it does, it is fairly easy.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll likely post some pics tomorrow night.

I gave away some of the Ludwigia peruensis today to a local member, then planted some Ammannia gracilius.
Ammannia gracilius has a nice large leaf and ordered look, a different shade of red than the other Ludwigia "Red" next door. It'll likely take another month or two to grow enough out and get it to color up and adapt nicely.


----------



## faizal

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I think you are running the light too low, 30-40 is decent at the bottom, the top could be much higher or just a little more depending on the tank's height and distances from the bulbs.



Thank you Tom.   I am currently running it at 20 @ substrate because it is a non co2 tank. It's just day 4 into start up. I will get it to 30-40 at the bottom.

Thank you, Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

3 is a good target for a non CO2 tank, some will do fine at 20, but in general, 30-40 is good.

Adding CO2 will lower the threshold of the LCP(light compensation Point where PS = R), so contrary to belief, CO2 allows you to add even LESS light, than non CO2. This is because all the resources the plant takes in and uses can be geared towards capturing light instead of capturing light AND limited CO2.


----------



## Antipofish

George Farmer said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an incredible display.
> 
> It may not suit some tastes. Maybe too formal for many. However, it's probably the finest display of healthy aquarium plant growth anyone is likely to see on here.
> 
> I actually like the relatively rigid layout - sure it's at odds with the Nature Aquarium concept but it's nice to see a refreshing and rather unique style like this.  The journal title is certainly accurate in its description...
> 
> It's like it's forcing you to notice each species; their colours and textures provide maximum impact and visual feast to suppress anyone's appetite.  Almost like a freshwater equivalent to a reef.
Click to expand...


I could not agree more.

As a newbie to the hobby, I had spent some time looking at some of the fantastic scapes more experienced folk than myself had done, and immediately wanted to jump right in at the deep end.  Several of them, George included, advised me to start more slowly and put plants in that I liked, learn how they grow, how to manage them, what does well, what does not, what I like, what I do not. I am beginning to accept that advice now, and I find I am learning more than I ever could have done by trying to achieve a specific look or by being too rigid in my plant choices.

This aquarium of Tom's, whilst clearly worlds apart from what I am currently doing, is in essence the same thing too.  Tom is trying out different plants and allowing the tank to evolve through that process. (Just with a much greater degree of understanding and ability, LOL).

I love this.  As a learning tool, as an aquarium, as a display, and as Tom's choices of plants have changed, I have learned even more.  I think the structured look is fantastic, because it is easy to see the differences in plant colours, shapes, growth rates, success rates, textures... the list goes on.... That is not to say I dislike other styles either, but from my own perspective, this is probably the most helpful tank on here for me at the moment.

Thanks Tom, for putting so much effort in to this journal, and for answering everyone's questions in depth like you do.  You are a true Ambassador for this hobby


----------



## faizal

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Adding CO2 will lower the threshold of the LCP(light compensation Point where PS = R), so contrary to belief, CO2 allows you to add even LESS light, than non CO2. This is because all the resources the plant takes in and uses can be geared towards capturing light instead of capturing light AND limited CO2.



 Wow,...That's something really new to me. 



			
				Antipofish said:
			
		

> Thanks Tom, for putting so much effort in to this journal, and for answering everyone's questions in depth like you do. You are a true Ambassador for this hobby



My thoughts exactly,...


----------



## plantbrain

Today I had a chance to plant my Ammannia and moved the L. perunesis. Still puzzled as to what to do about the downoi, it's such a nice plant and easy to grow, sells well etc. 














You can see the Bun's in the rear behind the wood, they are small now, but in a  few months, they will look pretty nice. There are 8 different types.


----------



## plantbrain

Antipofish said:
			
		

> I love this.  As a learning tool, as an aquarium, as a display, and as Tom's choices of plants have changed, I have learned even more.  I think the structured look is fantastic, because it is easy to see the differences in plant colours, shapes, growth rates, success rates, textures... the list goes on.... That is not to say I dislike other styles either, but from my own perspective, this is probably the most helpful tank on here for me at the moment.
> 
> Thanks Tom, for putting so much effort in to this journal, and for answering everyone's questions in depth like you do.  You are a true Ambassador for this hobby



I've noticed Amano doing/trying to do this and promote this for some time. I'm just really starting to make a priority and illustrate it for people. Styles change, evolve, etc.......but the basics and horticulture are really not that much different.

New folks often think there is some secret, but a lot of it is simply getting in there and pruning, and seeing what works nicely for that location. You have to have the growing basics down first...........that is generally the biggest issue for most newbies.

I've done enough help in that area of growth, so time to evolve and start on something else, and frankly, I find discussing this stuff a lot easier and nicer, no one is arguing with me


----------



## plantbrain

There are 10 plant "Streets".


----------



## Emyr

Its developing seriously nicely. really taking shape in that first lastest photo. Whats your plan for the very front foreground or are you leaving it open?


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I find discussing this stuff a lot easier and nicer, no one is arguing with me


Makes a change!!   

The 'scape is coming along real nice.

How long do you think you'll run this for, Tom?

Will it keep evolving slowly with plant changes here and there for the long-term or will you start over with new hardscape and style once it's fully grown-in, in a couple of months or so?

Which part of this tank do you enjoy the most?  The maintenance? The visual impact? The animals? The changes? The sharing? Or a bit of everything in equal measures?


----------



## clonitza

I think I can answer for the last two 



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Will it keep evolving slowly with plant changes here and there for the long-term or will you start over with new hardscape and style once it's fully grown-in, in a couple of months or so?


Won't be fully grown.



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Which part of this tank do you enjoy the most?  The maintenance? The visual impact? The animals? The changes? The sharing? Or a bit of everything in equal measures?


Selling the plants.

Tom's tank is like Wall Street.


----------



## fandango

I'm sure many here have said this before - I never thought planted freshwater tank could be THIS colourful!! It gets better and better each time I see it! I keep returning to this thread every few days and it never fails to impress. Please keep us mortals here happy with your posts for the foreseeable future   

One question. Did you say you cull the shrimps in your tank to keep the colours from degrading? If you do how do you manage that in such a vast tank with so many plants? 

Thank you.


----------



## plantbrain

New Canon G12 camera:


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> How long do you think you'll run this for, Tom?



Not sure, I can move various species around and have the widest range or light I could ask for from the lowest to the highest settings, etc........so it can simply change ane evolve rather than having any specific end point, more a journey vs a a destination.

On any trip, there are always a few nice views.



> Will it keep evolving slowly with plant changes here and there for the long-term or will you start over with new hardscape and style once it's fully grown-in, in a couple of months or so?



If I am happy (well more than 50%), I often will keep a scape for a few years. I'm not a tear it down and start a new one "type" of aquarist. It is not for a lack of ideas, I have plenty of those and plenty of hardscaping materials........just what feels like a good look and go from there, it's rather a basic thing with me.

So I suppose I'm more a long term aquarist, many of the contest folks? They are store owners/workers, or have access etc...........so that is all they do and they can tear it down and start over etc easily, for hobbyists..........well, the idea of tossing out of the ADA AS, selling off and finding a home for all the fish.........
it's a big old hassle and I lack the time/motivation.

I enjoy my aquariums in my home, I do not enjoy a construction zone and lots of work to make sure the tank gets off to a good start.

I can still rotate various species and plants around, sometimes these do not work well, sometimes they do, and sometimes they do not work well in this scape, but would look great in another.



> Which part of this tank do you enjoy the most?  The maintenance? The visual impact? The animals? The changes? The sharing? Or a bit of everything in equal measures?



The snide critiques

haha

I like to stop by the tank and pick a little here and there. I like the plants mostly......nice to try some larger groups of some species I have not kept together or at all. I guess another thing is to develop a nice scape with eclectic species. 

I suppose another thing is to illustrate that you have easily have nice coloration with a wide varieties of species without having to stress the plants with low N or careful fussy dosing. This tank gets  a bit more Traces and PO4 than normal EI, so it's a good case for falsification of various claims that come down the pipe about dosing or ferts.......

Since I keep some of the most troublesome fussy plants.........and least 1/3 or more of the tank.........it also helps to support claims made.

All you have to do is show a few examples where that is NOT the case and you can beat the snot of anyone's argument. See? I can argue later about this tank and use it as support   I'm evil that way.


----------



## plantbrain

clonitza said:
			
		

> Selling the plants.
> 
> Tom's tank is like Wall Street.



No bail out here, mate.

But selling is part of the overall plan, hence the eclectic array of species.
Some plants I do NOT make much on, but they fulfill a nice role and color, easy to care for etc.
Most plants I do sell.

I can make an easy 100-200$ a month off this tank, maybe more once the rows are at the peak and have filled in no# wise with high grade tops. Nice tops you can sell and get a fair $ for. Since many of these plants are not available in the USA, many pester me to sell them some. I only sit on plants 1-2 days at most, then they are sold.This does not include the fire shrimp, I make about 100$ a month off those. My 180 sells about 200$ per month with Starougyne and has for about 2 years now.

So if you get 200-400$ a month ranges, then taking care of the tanks is less of chore and more of a job that you love to do.


----------



## plantbrain

fandango said:
			
		

> One question. Did you say you cull the shrimps in your tank to keep the colours from degrading? If you do how do you manage that in such a vast tank with so many plants?
> 
> Thank you.



A small round shrimp net and I just pick them off every so often without uporooting plants. I never get all of them, but I do get most. Many end up in the overflow also, so I thin the lesser grades and keep the high grades from that, I'd say 2x a week, about 50 or so go over into the prefilter.


----------



## foxfish

LOL those shrimps are amazing how they find there way into the overflow & into the sump, I occasionally get a squirt of pink mist when one makes it all the way to the pump!


----------



## plantbrain

foxfish said:
			
		

> LOL those shrimps are amazing how they find there way into the overflow & into the sump, I occasionally get a squirt of pink mist when one makes it all the way to the pump!



They are impossible to get rid of them if you ever wish to remove them, it requires a 100% tank break down and filter disinfection.

For this reason, I have little mercy removing anything not a high grade





I feed lower grades to fish, I kill the shrimp and then feed. Mid grades get sold and stored in another tank in the garage. Always someone wanting 50 or so, I no longer sell smaller lots, the production is too great. If the local buyers cull well, they can end up with a few high grades, then kill the rest........

But do do this well, you need bare bottom tanks and small tanks(lots).


----------



## clonitza

You don't really need to waste time on killing them just add some breeding pairs of dwarf cichlids and they'll take care of them in no time. 
It's nice to make some extra $$$ with your tanks used to do it also some time ago and was very rewarding.
There's a plant I've wanted to see, bubbless has it and wondered if you had it too, name is cryptocoryne sp. purple.
Last photo looks fantastic with the blue tint btw 

Cheers,
Mihai


----------



## plantbrain

I've tried dwarf cichlids, loaches etc, nothing gets them all and they can hide much easier than fish can, they end up in the filters, and sump etc.

You cannot kill that which cannot die

Seriously, I used hard core insecticides for plant pest and I still had 3-4 make it alive after 4x the suggest treatment(done in succession for 1 week, then another treatment and another.

I could get rid of them in the tank perhaps with some really smaller hungry species, but not in the filte,r but I can drain the filter and peroxide it etc........

It's tough.

But folks buy them..and they do provide some use.


----------



## plantbrain

A request: ideas for a good schooling fish that will not leap to their deaths in an open top, or at least not many of them, do not eat shrimp, does not rip up plants.


----------



## Ady34

green neons shoal very well and are slightly understated, maybe a touch small for what you are looking for though. But get enough of them... actually they might nibble the softer plants.


----------



## clonitza

Don't really like shoaling fish, they don't provide me any entertainment, I was tempted to recommend you pseudomugil sp. if you want to get rid of shrimps, they are good hunters.  

Boraras brigittae might be a nice choice, though tiny if kept in large numbers I think they will look amazing in your tank.


----------



## azet

_h. rodwayi_ perhaps? have seen them in a friends tank lately, about 400 of them    

but like with many characids, sometimes they bite off leaves of delicate plants. my _p. simulans_ are supplementing fibre from _hemianthus micranthemoides_  

_pseudomugil_ sp.: I have lost almost all of them in an open tank.   

btw. your tank looks stunning!!!


----------



## plantbrain

Boraras brigittae are possible, Rummy noses are also, Neons or anything close: I have another tank full of Cardinals.
Blue eyes are also considered.

I like Botia sidthimunki so a SEA fish will do well, or African theme also since I have a double trunk Elephant nose and some gold nugget plecos which have been in the tank for about 9 months now.


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

> A request: ideas for a good schooling fish that will not leap to their deaths in an open top, or at least not many of them, do not eat shrimp, does not rip up plants.


Arnoldichthys spilopterus - African Red-eyed Tetra


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A request: ideas for a good schooling fish that will not leap to their deaths in an open top, or at least not many of them, do not eat shrimp, does not rip up plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Arnoldichthys spilopterus - African Red-eyed Tetra
Click to expand...


They are great fish, but a little larger than I want.

I'm leaning towards Rummies, or Red Phantoms: Megalamphodus sweglesi
I had red phantoms before, they are like Serpae but much less vicious and smaller, more docile.


----------



## George Farmer

I think Rummynose over Red Phantom. You already have lots of red in the aquascape.


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Boraras brigittae are possible, Rummy noses are also, Neons or anything close: I have another tank full of Cardinals.
> Blue eyes are also considered.
> 
> I like Botia sidthimunki so a SEA fish will do well, or African theme also since I have a double trunk Elephant nose and some gold nugget plecos which have been in the tank for about 9 months now.



Tom how do you find the sidthimunkis get on with shrimp.  Do you have so many shrimp that it does not matter or do they not get at them anyway ?


----------



## clonitza

Rummy nose I think is the only species I've seen actually schooling and in a large tank this looks amazing.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I think Rummynose over Red Phantom. You already have lots of red in the aquascape.



Yes, and the nice metallic silvery flash they give off is a nice attraction. 

I'm still very much undecided and will stop at wholesaler tomorrow and look, but...........not buy. Why? Because I'm a smart enough to not do impulse buy unless I've had a fair amount of time to ponder first. Even so, it is no guarantee that once they are in the tank, that they are suitable, what I'd thought, some fish I know well, but others...less so.


Seeing them at the Wholesalers in a bare tank is one thing, in a planted tank, it quite another.


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Rummynose over Red Phantom. You already have lots of red in the aquascape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and the nice metallic silvery flash they give off is a nice attraction.
> 
> I'm still very much undecided and will stop at wholesaler tomorrow and look, but...........not buy. Why? Because I'm a smart enough to not do impulse buy unless I've had a fair amount of time to ponder first. Even so, it is no guarantee that once they are in the tank, that they are suitable, what I'd thought, some fish I know well, but others...less so.
> 
> 
> Seeing them at the Wholesalers in a bare tank is one thing, in a planted tank, it quite another.
Click to expand...

Wise words. Fish selection is one of my favourite aspects to aquascaping. I still get it wrong though. The latest error was blue tetras (Boehlkea fredcochui) in my shallow tank. Nice colour but far too active for my taste.


----------



## plantbrain

I have to agree with you George on this.
Selecting fish it something you sort have to just try and hope/pray etc............

If not, then you have to catch them which in the 120 gal, is a PITA.

Of 5 tanks, I only really have 1 that's stocked accordingly. Sad, I know.......


----------



## roadmaster

Have only kept them in closed top tank's but Threadfin rainbows in enough number's, make a pretty display in my view, with the antic's of the males attempting to entice females.
believe they would pose no threat to shrimps ,plant's.


----------



## sanj

Praecox been committing "Paputan"? 

I have not had an issue with them jumping in a open topped holding tank, but I have had many rainbow species jump, I have had to cover my main display tank. There are only so many I could tolerate loosing that way.


----------



## roadmaster

roadmaster said:
			
		

> Have only kept them in closed top tank's but Threadfin rainbows in enough number's, make a pretty display in my view, with the antic's of the males attempting to entice females.
> believe they would pose no threat to shrimps ,plant's.



After posting the above yesterday, and speaking with those I know who keep them,  seems they would not be very good idea in open topped tank's.   :silent:


----------



## plantbrain

I may move the Erios in the front.
Still pondering.









I replaced the Fissidens with Subwassertang for now, the Fissidens came in with hair algae and I'd hoped the shrimp would remove it, they keep it beaten back well, but.......
Some I placed the moss in an emergent terrarium type of set up and then it will go to a dark tank for a week or so. Subwassertang is weedy also, but has a nice color and texture, and no algae.

I might move the Erios to the Toninia lotus blossom on the Left side and then move the Tonina to where the larger Tonina is now (and get rid of the normal Tonina).
The new Erio Gioas will get good sized, roughly baseball size or larger. I have 6 now and a tiny plantlet. I'll thin out some Downoi and open that space up more next to the Subwassertang for the Erios. 
The Ammannia is hit or miss with some of the the stems, some are recovering and adapting well, others are not. I'll cull the nicer tops and replant in a month or so. The L. pantanal did this also once it hit the surface of the water.

I might consider Ludwigia breviceps instead of the Ammannia and perhaps find a home for the Ammannia in the rear.


----------



## plantbrain

Also, recall about 1 month ago this little raggy looking Downoi stand?




Look at the difference above.


----------



## Emyr

Get the eriocaulon c back in there! Was my favorite plant in the tank, love the spiky look of it compared with the softer looking plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Emyr said:
			
		

> Get the eriocaulon c back in there! Was my favorite plant in the tank, love the spiky look of it compared with the softer looking plants.



The Erio Gioas is the replacement. I might use other species later and rotate various species I've not kept.


----------



## Emyr

What do you do with the erio c that you took out then? put that all in another tank temporarily?


----------



## plantbrain

Emyr said:
			
		

> What do you do with the erio c that you took out then? put that all in another tank temporarily?



Sold them for 3x what I paid. 

Once the Erio goias grow to about softball size, I'll likely sell them and try and different Erio species.
Buy for 15$, sell for 50$ etc. Erio Goias puts out plantlets much easier/nicer than some other species in the genus, so I may end up keeping the mother plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Changes to be done likely this week or two:


----------



## plantbrain

Ludwigia pilosa needs to fill and color up, I have a stem of L inclinata orange that will take some time to fill in, if anyone has some for sale, let me know.
L pilosa is rare, so it'll be a couple of months before this plant fills in nicely.

I'm not happy really with the lack of red color on this right side. Downoi is out of place really, but I think if I allow it to grow out, then cull the small stuff and sell that and keep a more orderly row of larger plants, that will make it look better.
The Pellia is cramped really against the UG and the Erio. I have not tied down the Fissidens on the 3 new pieces of small wood on the Right side there.

I moved the P stellata up and it looks good with the yellow and purple coloration. Likely will keep it there. More R wallichii will fill in the back, I might replace the normal R macrandra with the "japan" version.
You can see the Anubias and Buce's spot behind the wood. I was going to work these on those 3 fingers of wood in the front Right side, but I think it's better back here really.

The Tonina Lotus blossom is a much better choice than the normal type.
I moved the Ammannia gracilius to the rear, removed the Hydrothrix entirely.


----------



## O'Neil

That really is epic!! I like the un-natural look. 
As a noob I often get a bit confused looking at Dutch aquariums, wondering where people start with their layout. Ofc a good solid knowledge of plant species would help but I'm quite far from that atm.


----------



## plantbrain

Porksword said:
			
		

> That really is epic!! I like the un-natural look.
> As a noob I often get a bit confused looking at Dutch aquariums, wondering where people start with their layout. Ofc a good solid knowledge of plant species would help but I'm quite far from that atm.



It's not complicated as far as the design, you just find plants that contrast well and have different shades and textures, they can be easy plants or the hardest........make some rows.........add some driftwood to line the rows up etc and then go at it.

Do not like it? Change the wood or the plants etc till you do, little by little.


----------



## O'Neil

No doubt that once I've created my first one I'll see the simplicity behind it all, but at first glance to someone who knows about 5 species of plant it's quite daunting (those 5 include roses, lol)
I think that when I've learned the different varieties and how they grow in I'll be able to crack it and the photo you posted with the plants labelled will be an excellent place to start, so I'll be following this and watching how they grow.
Thanks plantbrain.


----------



## plantbrain

I need to change the Left side around, it's too ordered, straight etc.

So this week, maybe Tues or Weds I'll change it pretty much entirely in the front 1/2 from the Red Ludwigia row over.


----------



## plantbrain

Front Left piece of wood can be moved and will be to trim off some of the Downoi


Below, I'll add a few more L pilosa(2 small rows) next to these 2.











I plan on adding more Rotala wallichii in the back and allowing the P stellata to fill in there, with the P sedoies coming around. 
I am going to make the Downoi a zigzag pattern and lop off some of the extra plants on the Left bulge there. This will provide more room.

I wish I could find a good home for the Erio goias.

But not in this tank at least right now.
So that will be removed. I'll work with some smaller Erios from now on. These will go next to the UG and Downoi in the front.
The open space where the Erios are now?

That will be a W shaped rug of Elatine triandra.

I have some R macrandra Japan but it's so similar to the normal, I'll wait and see.

On the side view, you can see the L pilosa, this is a nice plant and has reddened up, but it's never going to achieve a real strong red contrast I'm after.
Sort of a nice orangy color....I'll add another 2-3 tops in this section

I have a few options coming in this week for the red plant in the Left side that's open.
A ruby colored Persicaria 'Ruby' praetermissa, L breviceps, and  Ludwigia senegalaensis.
Obviously with more room, the dwarf lily bulbs would be an easy no brainer.
They other idea was adding a lace plant in here to scramble things up with a nice larger leaf rossette plant.

I've gotten much better at replanting UG also. This is the best method to max cutting sales and recovery after pruning.
I planted my 70 Gal woodagumi with UG for this reason.


More work and ideas to explore.


----------



## Ady34

Hi Tom,
have you given any more thought as to fish species for this tank, or are you quite happy with just the fire shrimp and plant production?
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## justjason88

This tank is amazing, lovely colours and a real credit to your hard work


----------



## plantbrain

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> have you given any more thought as to fish species for this tank, or are you quite happy with just the fire shrimp and plant production?
> Cheerio,
> Ady.



The NG rainbows are still in here, but only 8 left as I've managed to catch some of the others.
There are 3 goldnuggets and 5 G elephas double trunk elephant noses, a few otto cats.

I think I will go with the Red phantom tetras.
I was thinking butterfly African barbs or B jae, but B jae are hard to find.

Serpae tetras will shred shrimp so the Phantoms and their behavior are much more suited. And they go with the overt red coloration in the already red tank with red shrimp and my redneck.


----------



## Ady34

Hi,


			
				plantbrain said:
			
		

> The NG rainbows are still in here, but only 8 left as I've managed to catch some of the others.
> There are 3 goldnuggets and 5 G elephas double trunk elephant noses, a few otto cats.
> 
> I think I will go with the Red phantom tetras.
> I was thinking butterfly African barbs or B jae, but B jae are hard to find.



i bet you could try catching the rainbows forever and never get them all!! 
Slightly unusual choice with the elephant noses, do you ever see them and how do you find them to feed?
Gold nuggets are beautiful fish and will get you nosing around a lot trying to catch a glimpse, it always nice to have some hidden gems.
I would also go with the tetras over the barbs, african butterfly and 'b' jae's tend to like the shade so would prob hide in your plants, the tetras will be more visually appealing in this respect. There flowing fins will suit the plants... i can imagine them showing off to one another in there. If you like barbs though what about pentazona barbs, theyre nice looking and not too big. I also really love clown rasbora (rasbora kalochroma) which are also red 'ish' in good condition, i think its the way they shoal and glide around the tank in and out of the plants that makes me think they would look so good in this tank. A little bit bigger than what your thinking though and im not sure about shrimp compatability... i imagine a 4" theyd eat them!
Anyway, its always nice thinking about what to add, but ultimately its down to personal choice so ill leave you to it and stop sticking my oar in!
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, once you add a fish, dammit, it's tougher than sin to get them out if you decide you do not like them/it does not work etc.


----------



## foxfish

Hi Tom you tanks looks great, how do you find your elephant nose?
Do you just have one, what do you feed & how do they cope with high values of C02?


----------



## plantbrain

foxfish said:
			
		

> Hi Tom you tanks looks great, how do you find your elephant nose?
> Do you just have one, what do you feed & how do they cope with high values of C02?



LFS

I keep 5 total, one I've had for years, I added 4 smaller ones, the big one bullies them.
They are more sensitive to CO2 than ANY fish kept by people in planted tanks(well generally, never seen any nice scaped tanks with the fish I've kept, likely for good reason, they are good at plants, lousy at CO2/keeping fish, they gas and kill them).

Adding fish at the end for pretty pic does not count, I want pics over time of the scape and the fish in there. Obviously cryptic fish are tough to take a pic of. So that's an issue also. Since there are maple local hobbyists, they have all seen my tanks and can vouch, but one random person here or there........maybe not.


----------



## plantbrain

I moved the Erios and planted basically what will be 3 triangles on Elatine triandra

I might use some scraps of Starougyne purple to wedge between the pennwort and the Tonina.
Not sure yet, might look too busy once I'm done.





Below you can see the difference the tank makes after 5 days from the sellers, the 2 rear plants are acclimated after 5 days and keep getting nicer color, the one on the bottom that are green, I just got those.
















One of my little Double trunk elelphant noses.


----------



## plantbrain

I removed some of the Downoi and sold it.

I thinned the pantanal.

Added some nice Rudy Persacria to the rear corner.

Likely will sell of the Erio gioas. I need something darker.

I will keep the Starougyne purple on the far right side, makes a nice contrast against red and bright green.

Still after a nice low red plant. I might have to take the Hygro araguaia and find some other plant for the rear corner where it now resides.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm thinking about mini pellia and adding the Fissidens back.


----------



## faizal

Tom,.do fissidens & pelia respond to seachem excel well?


----------



## somethingfishy

Your tank is definately one of my happy places ... my wife even likes it due to the uber organisation haha 
being partially colour blind i cant tell all the colours but the contrasts between everything is stunning.

I will get there as long as there is great inspiration like this (and your tanks a money earner genius)


----------



## plantbrain

faizal said:
			
		

> Tom,.do fissidens & pelia respond to seachem excel well?



Not sure, but they should after a period of adaption.
All plants do near as I can tell.


----------



## plantbrain

somethingfishy said:
			
		

> Your tank is definately one of my happy places ... my wife even likes it due to the uber organisation haha
> being partially colour blind i cant tell all the colours but the contrasts between everything is stunning.
> 
> I will get there as long as there is great inspiration like this (and your tanks a money earner genius)




Well, a good farm should certainly paid for itself.

I went to get the Red Phantoms for this tank today.......they all had ick, so I'll have to wait a couple weeks.

Damn.


----------



## Radik

Pelia and fissidens had no issue with overdozing easy carbo. I used 15ml to 50L few times not a sign of burns on plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Still waiting for some red stem plants to try out on the Left side there, the green plant(ACMELLA REPENS) I will use somewhat like old school Dutch use Lizard tail.......but need to allow the plant to grow out more before making a zigzag line of it.

The Downoi will be replaced by Erio Kimberly likely or some similar darker Erio rossette like plant.

I allowed the E triandra on the Right side to fill back into the the other rows more than this pic shows.
I will add some more Rotala sunset and L senegalensis to see how they fit in the open section there. 

I just uprooted so it's murky water.






Here's some shrimp attacking a fresh piece of moss wood I added.


----------



## faizal

plantbrain said:
			
		

> faizal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom,.do fissidens & pelia respond to seachem excel well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure, but they should after a period of adaption.
> All plants do near as I can tell.
Click to expand...


Thanks Tom   Just so you should know I have been keeping the Substrate PAR between 30-40 in my tank as you had suggested earlier & it's working beautifully. Thank you for that too.



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> Pelia and fissidens had no issue with overdozing easy carbo. I used 15ml to 50L few times not a sign of burns on plants.



Cheers Radik.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll get some mini pellia here shortly, the light I am using is about 6x what you have Faizal in the 120 Gal here.

Did not start off that way, but........I can dial it back if I become less interested in gardening this tank.


----------



## faizal

plantbrain said:
			
		

> ....... the light I am using is about 6x what you have Faizal in the 120 Gal here.



Hence the difference between Immortals and your average garden variety aquarist


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I'll get some mini pellia here shortly, the light I am using is about 6x what you have Faizal in the 120 Gal here.
> 
> Did not start off that way, but........I can dial it back if I become less interested in gardening this tank.



So to match that Tom, whats your CO2 injection rate/period and Fert regime ?


----------



## plantbrain

faizal said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....... the light I am using is about 6x what you have Faizal in the 120 Gal here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hence the difference between Immortals and your average garden variety aquarist
Click to expand...


I'm not always interested in this much light though, careful what you wish for, there' a guy named Jack who grew beans......


----------



## plantbrain

There are a no# of different things going into a measured value for CO2, mostly the rate of degassing and additions.
Some tanks might measure 70ppm and another might measure 45 ppm, my 180 has 70 and this tank has around 45-55.

So if you just targeted and assumed(Like I use to do) that the higher light tank's CO2 was non limiting for ALL aquaria, you'd be mistaken. It did not make sense to me for awhile.

But by process of elimination and good measurement, I was able to come up with a rational for it and why some tanks just had algae even if the CO2 seemed good compared to another tank.


Finally found some nice Ludwgia inclinata red:





The Amcella repens makes a nice Lizard tail substitute. Lizard tail is an often used plant in Europe and in Dutch scapes, but this native Amcella is a nice alternative that many who have used it, frankly have not scaped with it much.
The Erio is assuie type 2, a smaller Erio and it will likely split a few more times and then the individuals will fatten up much like E. cinereum.  
The bright coloration of the L inclinata makes for a nice contrast. It responds well to frequent trimmings and grows quickly. 

There really is not quite enough space, I needed another 3-5 inches longer tank, then fill out the rows thicker and nicer.
Maybe I'll come up with _something_ and a decent solution eventually.


I'd thought and still am..........about replacing the Amcella with Downoi.

I'll have that plant(either) come down and "fan out" in the front, the L inclinata will fill in a bit more, as will 
CO2 is enough not to get algae, not enough to kill or stress fish, enough to provide nice lush growth for anyplant at these light intensities.



Ludwigia pilosa. L. pilosa has become blotchy red on some leaves, I have about 6-8 plantlets coming along also, but they will take a good 4-8 weeks to research the same sizes as the plants here.
The Blotchiness may be from transplanting them a couple times trying them out in other spots, they are sort of like the L. perunesis and the stem is a little fragile and they have similar root systems.





The UG replanting method is the best I've done some far, certainly the best method I've seen and the results are quite nice.
This is roughly 2 weeks after replanting, this use to take 6-8 weeks to get like this.

I moved the Ludwgia "sunset" behind the Erio type 3 Lorax like trees. It grows well and I'm not sure if I plant on keeping it just yet.
It will be difficult to beat up the L inclinata for that coveted spot.


----------



## Radik

UG growth is amazing mine is much slower but then I do not beam lasers on it.
Have you tried to trim it? If not can you try to trim one part of it.. as you can grow it so quick I would want you to take on guinea ping for me please 

Cheers


----------



## plantbrain

I mowed it like I do with Gloss, but I like the response and aftermath with this method much better.
Looks better and I have some extra to sell afterwards, vs just a bunch of floating leaves that cannot be replanted

Recovery seems better also.


----------



## gmartins

What's this replanting method for UG you are talking about Tom?

I've planted some UG 3 weeks ago but I'm struggling to get it secured 

GM


----------



## plantbrain

I use basically 2 Cm dense plugs from the old mat I have that I uproot.

I simply use a screw like method to insert and then work my way from one side to the other trying to leave minimal space between each plug. In 2-3 weeks, you cannot tell it was replanted at all.

The old way took about 8-12 weeks, but I only used about 1/3 the UG to do it.


----------



## gmartins

That's quite ingenious. I think I'll give it a try. I'm loosing more and more UG everyday caus it just doesn't hold to the substratum.

so just pack UG into plugs and then place the plugs where you want it right? That shouldn't be hard.

Thanks

GM


----------



## plantbrain

Here's today, I trimmed then did a good sized water change:







I added Elatine hydropiper, "micro" Gloss.

E. triandra has filled in well and will make a nice bright green rug.

Still got a mess till things grow out more on the Left side.

Water change, takes about 35 min or just enough to clean the prefilter, catch shrimp, clean or move anything around.






E triandra close up


----------



## plantbrain

I expanded the Elatine hydropiper and this really brought the Left side together much much better.

I'll try both Downoi again in the spot, it will need to grow out as I only saved a few measly scraggy plant leftovers. I did expand the Ludwigia inclinata in a nice 1/2 circle arc. This is starting to shape up as this plant is easy to grow out rapidly.



I have some Bacopa lanigera coming in for one of two spots and will try it out in the fromt between the L. inclinata and the L. "red", the bright white (Glaucous) green hairy Bacopa with larger leaves.
I had this plant back in 2001, been awhile.
If not there, then behind on the far left behind the main trunk of wood.
This will provide nice contrast in either location.

I also Fissidens another branch to add balance for the other Fissidens branch next to the UG.

Overall, I'm getting to close to having a semi complete scape. From there, some trims and tidying up.

I'll get some pics in a couple of days. This will better illustrate the coming together of the section.
Not sure in the Bacopa will come in, but you will be able to tell pretty quickly where and how the tank will look overall.

Then it's just some trim timing.


----------



## JohnC

plantbrain said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> Overall, I'm getting to close to having a semi complete scape. From there, some trims and tidying up.
> 
> .....




I, for one, never want you to complete this scape!  8) 

This journal is brilliant for seeing how plants grow out and develop. As ever with your writings, very educational. But in this case beautiful as well.

Best Regards,
John


----------



## plantbrain

Well, I can change some things around and have, but I can allow some things to develop fully also.


----------



## George Farmer

Do you have a macro lens, Tom?

I'd love to see some of your beautiful plants up-close and personal!


----------



## Ady34

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Do you have a macro lens, Tom?
> 
> I'd love to see some of your beautiful plants up-close and personal!



and those fire shrimp.


----------



## michj

amazing, great colour.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Do you have a macro lens, Tom?
> 
> I'd love to see some of your beautiful plants up-close and personal!



Then someone will bitch about a full tank shot  

Yes, I have a full set of Canon L lens and the macro flash and god knows what else.

I rarely break that stuff out except...for the nature photos, sometimes fish, but that's been years.

I'll see about it.

Thanks, not a bad idea.

I'm more concerned about the larger color scheme really.


----------



## plantbrain

The Ludwigia inclinata on the Left is coming along nicely.
Another 2 weeks and it'll be where I want.

New E hydropiper in the front should be a nicer alternative to HC. Just planted, so it'll be a another 2weeks or so before I see how it does in the tank at 26C. 

I could also go with "mini" Erio cinereum in that same spot also. Hopefully the mini will stay small if I do decide to go back to Erios anytime soon.

The downoi spot you can see now what I had in mind. Those are the scraggy runts of the batch that like last time, ended up nice and fat and worth 80$ for the group after 2 months of growth.

I might add the Bacopa lanigera where the Downoi is now, that's the idea anyways, the contrast between the Bacopa and the Ludwigia Red and the orangy inclinata is a very nice effect. I may end up placing the Bacopa in the rear some where off to the far Left also if I decide on the Downoi.
On the far Right, I'll allow the Starougyne "purple" to grow out some and then make a small patch of it to separate from the Tonina lotus blossom, the colors are a bit similar, so this will add some division between them.

I also have some Mini Pellia I need to see if I can add to help divide things between the groups, or I might add that to the wood somewhere. The Mini Pellia would also make an effective barrier between the 3 foreground weeds that tend to be bright green. Or dark green fingers of it tied to small short branches protruding into the bright green E triandra and E hydropiper.

Still waiting for the Bacopa lanigera to arrive, few folks have done scapes with it.

I'll raise the Bolbitus up so it wraps around the back of the wood a bit more, due to the timing on the trim, it looks bare, but as the Myrio matogrossense grows outward......it fills this space in pretty fast, in 1-2 weeks, it'll be packed and in need of a trim again.


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a macro lens, Tom?
> 
> I'd love to see some of your beautiful plants up-close and personal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then someone will bitch about a full tank shot
> 
> Yes, I have a full set of Canon L lens and the macro flash and god knows what else.
> 
> I rarely break that stuff out except...for the nature photos, sometimes fish, but that's been years.
> 
> I'll see about it.
> 
> Thanks, not a bad idea.
> 
> I'm more concerned about the larger color scheme really.
Click to expand...

Seems a bit of a waste to have all the great gear but not use it. Send it my way if you like!  

Try getting some decent fish close-ups. That's a nice challenge.


----------



## Antipofish

George Farmer said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a macro lens, Tom?
> 
> I'd love to see some of your beautiful plants up-close and personal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have a full set of Canon L lens and the macro flash and god knows what else.
> I rarely break that stuff out except...for the nature photos, sometimes fish, but that's been years.
> I'll see about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seems a bit of a waste to have all the great gear but not use it. Send it my way if you like!
> 
> Try getting some decent fish close-ups. That's a nice challenge.
Click to expand...


Fight ya for it


----------



## plantbrain

The Canon G12 I have is real good for macros and does not back focus much. 
I use the Canon 5d mkII sparingly for personal reasons.


----------



## plantbrain

The Bacopa lanigera will straighten up and become larger and whitish.

Just redid and moved some things, so it's cloudy.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## Tim Harrison

Still looking good. "Dutch something or other" doesn't quite cut it any more; I think you've invented another scaping genre..."Alien Surreal".


----------



## darren636

^^^^^^  the chances of anything coming from mars, are a million to one.... yet still, they come.... ^^^^^^^ definitely otherwordly.


----------



## plantbrain

Troi said:
			
		

> Still looking good. "Dutch something or other" doesn't quite cut it any more; I think you've invented another scaping genre..."Alien Surreal".



"Produce stand" perhaps, with a wall of apples, oranges and tomatoes.  

Reef folks get picked on often times for this same issue, they have these scapes full of bright colors stacked up towards the back. Some Dutch tanks fall into that group also.

My startin goal was rather simple, just wanted a bright showy stem plant tank to off set the cooler simpler designs I often prefer. My clients all like Jungly things...........so this balances my interest/taste.

The 70 Gal manzi scape has a very interesting hardscape and unique there as well. The #d view on that tank is really nice, I spent maybe 10 minutes deciding what goes where, it was not a long process at all. This tank is polar opposite.

But both will give plenty of happiness and profit from plant sales and livestock.
I also like to Farm and while not having 40 acres is a bummer..........at least for now.........I can still do this.

Livestock: shrimps and fishes.
Crops: loads of plants and a large variety.

Per dry weight, the plants are worth more per dry weight than marijuana. Which is legal here in CA but really odd how it has become that way.


----------



## plantbrain

Nice new growth is coming in faster than I anticipated.

A little over 3 weeks worth of growth from the E triandra, not bad.


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

>



I LOVE this pic Tom ! Is there any chance of you annotating it with the full names of each plant for us newbie mortals ?


----------



## plantbrain

Antipofish said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I LOVE this pic Tom ! Is there any chance of you annotating it with the full names of each plant for us newbie mortals ?
Click to expand...


Names might change if I do any changes. And if you have followed, you know I play legos with the groups often times.

If you have an interest in a few, just ask.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

This tank just keeps getting better!  What is the third from right stem with pink hue?


----------



## Antipofish

OK Tom, thanks, so what is the first orange on the left, carrying across that line to the right as far as the last purple one, from left to right please  Thats 7 sp in all as I count


----------



## plantbrain

L to R from the front: UG, Fissidens, Ludwigia inclinata, Bacopa lanigera, E. hydro piper, Ludwigia Red, Erio setaceum Type 3, L. vertilicillata var pantanal, Tonina lotus blossom, L peruninesis, Ech agust. var vesuvius

E triandra big bright green mat in from and H sibthorpides, there's some Downoi and Starogyne purple in very small amounts also in the front.


----------



## plantbrain

Here is a pic of the Ealtine, which the triandra was plants about 3 weeks ago now, as you can see, growth is impressive. The E. hydropiper has also grown in nicely........and will form a solid rug in another week or two I'd estimate.
E hydropiper is a nice new HC alternative so I'm excited about it and I have a good sized patch.

I was worried it might do well due to higher temps some had mentioned it was a cold water plant only etc. That does not seem to be the case. 







Here's a high res slice shot.


----------



## GHNelson

Blimey your the King  
hoggie


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> L to R from the front: UG, Fissidens, Ludwigia inclinata, Bacopa lanigera, E. hydro piper, Ludwigia Red, Erio setaceum Type 3, L. vertilicillata var pantanal, Tonina lotus blossom, L peruninesis, Ech agust. var vesuvius
> 
> E triandra big bright green mat in from and H sibthorpides, there's some Downoi and Starogyne purple in very small amounts also in the front.



Yeah Tom, DOH ! Now I am totally confused cos I was only wanting the 7 plants as I asked for a couple of posts above.  You have included a whole bunch more and I dont really know what direction/order you are going as you have included some at the front too.  Can I be a pain and ask you to just list the ones I described please dude?


----------



## plantbrain

If it has 2-4 leaves per node, sort of pink....... then it's the Ludwigia inclinata(far Left). If if a more cherry red and semi middle, then it's the L. inclinata verticillata var pantanal. If it's Far left and round with many leaves per node, Ludwigia pilosa.


----------



## plantbrain

I cut out some sod from the Elatine patches, sold the E triandra for 90$ and the E hydropiper for for 50$. Not bad for 3 week's worth of growth for 2 plants. 

I can mow E triandra like Gloss, but I think for selling, I'll stick with sod cutting.


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I cut out some sod from the Elatine patches, sold the E triandra for 90$ and the E hydropiper for for 50$. Not bad for 3 week's worth of growth for 2 plants.
> 
> I can mow E triandra like Gloss, but I think for selling, I'll stick with sod cutting.



So when you say "sod cutting", what substrate makes up the sod ?


----------



## plantbrain

By sod, I mean pretty much like the grass you have on a lawn. You cut the sides, edges and then gently pull the entire mat up and roll it and off to market it goes. I use a plastic paint scraper for make the cut, and this leaves the remainder intact to regrow out to fill that area you just cut, back in with new growth.

Works well with foreground weeds.


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> By sod, I mean pretty much like the grass you have on a lawn. You cut the sides, edges and then gently pull the entire mat up and roll it and off to market it goes. I use a plastic paint scraper for make the cut, and this leaves the remainder intact to regrow out to fill that area you just cut, back in with new growth.
> 
> Works well with foreground weeds.



Cool, and presumable the substrate that comes away in the "sod" also provides a useful method of replanting?


----------



## plantbrain

No, I shake the ADA AS loose, but I'm gentle.












This is about 150-200$ worth of plant sales the last 2-3 weeks and this does not count any other plant species.
So it's a nice farm that makes a profit and still looks good, interesting etc, and even changing.

Not many tanks can say that.


----------



## foxfish

You are right there Tom in fact not many tanks, if any, I have ever seen can compete with the exceptional plant growth.
It is the quality of the growth that really impresses me, somthing you only normally see when plants are grown out of the water.
I seem to have mastered the basic principles of successfully growing aquatic plants but what you are showing us is on a different level!
Can you give an indication of how long it takes to exhaust your gas cylinder, it looks about 5-7lb?


----------



## plantbrain

I'm cooking through CO2. I have no idea what the flow rate is , I'd need mass flow controller meter for that, eg an Alicat or something. I use those on large 500 gal+ display tanks. Only way to measure, bubbles per second cannot be done.

I use a 10lb tank, so ~ 4kg since it fits well under the stand. I might use one in 4-5 months? 

The point of the tank/goal is multidimensional: 

1.Farm, but it needs to look good, so different trim and harvest method are done and the trade off between profit and aesthetics afterward and recovery are weighed.

2. The scape, the aesthetics overall

3. Livestock: these are also sold, the fish? Maybe. Fire shrimp and high grade CRS's? Definitely(maybe 100$ a month)
But these are aesthetics also.....but I happen to be able to make a profit off them also. 

4. Contrast and texture in the scape.

5. A scape where I can try new trim methods and new plant species.

6. Generally balance new eclectic species with species that just fit the right spot in the tank. Rare new plants will sell better and some are just nice and easy to care for, others are weedy and removed if a suitable replacement is found.

Very few scapes perform well as sales and farm like production, and also look good. There's a trade off for that.  


Many Dutch scapers have spent a good 20-30 years doing what this tank has done in a  few months.
But I took risk to get it there and I also..have a good 20 years experience to boot like them also  

But when folks tell me that EI is bad for plants, causes algae, or that there is a better way to do it.....I have to compare it to this and see if they are selling plants and growing them like this or selling shrimp etc by the hundreds every month.  

It's no newbie tank, that's for sure.
But one reason it does well is the light and CO2.
Ferts are a relatively minor aspect but the one I get the most questions about.


----------



## George Farmer

Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.


----------



## Antipofish

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.



Including the "keeping the bank manager happy" box   Effort being rewarded ultimately, and well deserved.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.



I've been doing that as a method to learn, explore risk, toxicity, algae, mostly by falsifying hypothesis(if possible) for a good 20 years now.

This was what my tank looked like 20 years ago:


----------



## plantbrain

Antipofish said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Including the "keeping the bank manager happy" box   Effort being rewarded ultimately, and well deserved.
Click to expand...


Well, last year, I've made about 3000$ USD selling weeds from 4 tanks.
About 1000$ for fish/shrimps.

If you do this for 5 years, the cost of the tank and equipment has long paid for itself.
While I spend more on electric and labor, there is a reward for it.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:
			
		

> Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.



Maybe it is the aquarist, not the method.


----------



## George Farmer

plantbrain said:
			
		

> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it is the aquarist, not the method.
Click to expand...

Totally.


----------



## Ady34

George Farmer said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Farmer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably the best example of a high-energy planted aquarium system there is. It sure ticks lots of boxes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it is the aquarist, not the method.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Totally.
Click to expand...

I think its the aquarists method.


----------



## plantbrain

This would suggest that folks might want to look at the other factor and master each method rather than suggesting one is superior. I use it like a farmer/researcher might us Hoagland's modified solution as a non limiting reference for fertilizers.

Then I can focus on light, CO2, current etc.............

It's one less thing than has *dependency*.

If folks claim/make the hypothesis that an excess of say K+ causes issues with species X, Y and Z, I can easily test that hypothesis quickly by adding a specific K+ concentration. you first need to have a suitable method and ability to control the OTHER variables before.......you can do the test, but many assume they can figure everything out without having such a control reference  

Then they run around and seek other folks that will share their belief and say "me too!"
This is not how to approach things deductively, but man........is it a wildly popular thing on the web.

If you have nutrient dependency......then you have interactions with the fertilizer...........so sure, you will see effects when you raise ferts.......Liebig's law predicts this. So how can you test anything assuming this? You cannot test CO2 or light independently, and sure, some will have their tank work and do well in many cases........

That's more a function of them than the method itself however.

No matter what dosing routine folks have, if the light/CO2 is off, it does not matter and CO2 is the bugger. There are after all...........examples where we see algae in EVERY method of dosing is there not??? One dimensional micromanagement, not holistic approaches or isolating one thing at a time. 

"All I know is that it works for me", but not knowing why, not being able to isolate anything or test any hypothesis: we learn VERY little and gain no information from this approach/attitude. It answers little.


----------



## plantbrain

Made a big mess today.






I moved the Ludwgia red to the rear, remove the R. macrandra completely and the Bacopa lanigera. They are weedy, no one seemed to by or keep them for a  reasonable $ and they can be bought fairly cheap.


UG is extremely dense:








This is the stunted Rotala "sunset". The leaves are about 1/2 as long as what I had prior, they have reddened up a little since I got them Friday. If they revet back, then Antbug's issues is most likely CO2 and/or light. Since Aaron's tank has less light than mine, but both tanks produced larger/longer leaves, the light may not have a large influence, perhaps with color etc......but not with actually leaf size I would suggest/argue/think.

A few more tweaks on Antbugs tank, and I think he'll have a dandy tank though. $$$ does not come easily, so upgrades like an ATI light system is not something many walk out and buy tomorrow.

Good CO2 can be worked on now however.

I moved the L pilosa away from the L inclinata as they are similar in coloration. 

It's not the best place for it, but it does high light a nice plant.
It's worth 15X as much as the L. "red" and is a nice slow grower.

I might remove the L perunesis/granulosus and sell that and move the Red ludwigia over to that spot. I might change the L pilosa again, not sure, we will see.

Downoi has really bounced back from the dinky stump leftovers. I'll allow that to expand and come down in front where the E hydropiper is now on the left smaller side, sell that bit of E hydropiper.......then have extra grow out space for the downoi and the E Hydropiper as well. 

I have some different wood pieces I'll attach the mini pellia to on the far Right. I removed the Starougyne purple, sig other said it did not look good. She was right. 

I explored using the L pantanal and Red Macrandra in the spot where the L pilosa is now. Did not look good and the growth pattern would not look right/trimming etc, over time.

Rotala "sunset" today, let's see it in 2-3 weeks.


----------



## Westyggx

That UG growth is crazy man!


----------



## foxfish

Tom, do you think that your sump & filter allow more C02 to be added without affecting your fish & shrimps because of the high gas exchange & added oxygen?


----------



## Tim Harrison

> "All I know is that it works for me", but not knowing why, not being able to isolate anything or test any hypothesis: we learn VERY little and gain no information from this approach/attitude. It answers little.



Modern scientific reductionist methodology is all well and good, but lets face it some people just seem to have green fingers?...or if this tank is anything to go by multicolored fingers!


----------



## plantbrain

Troi said:
			
		

> "All I know is that it works for me", but not knowing why, not being able to isolate anything or test any hypothesis: we learn VERY little and gain no information from this approach/attitude. It answers little.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modern scientific reductionist methodology is all well and good, but lets face it some people just seem to have green fingers?...or if this tank is anything to go by multicolored fingers!
Click to expand...



Well concepts and reduction of myths on how to go about it.........have a lot to do with much of what I say.

Pruning and how to trim stuff, ADA has a ton of examples and how to trim etc........but very little about Why, How to actually grow generally, what ranges can be done, what light, cO2/or non CO2 methods work. They only sell you ADA, not general concepts.


----------



## plantbrain

foxfish said:
			
		

> Tom, do you think that your sump & filter allow more C02 to be added without affecting your fish & shrimps because of the high gas exchange & added oxygen?



Yes, but the gas exchange is selective, O2 and CO2 are independent.

I am trying to save CO2 as it enters the Filter............I am trying to add/exchange low O2 water with high O2 from the air. There is some overlap, but overall, I get 1-2 ppm more O2 using this filter than the canister filters usign the same total flow rate and with the same surface movement.

I think the skimmer prefilter plays the largest role though.

One thing to consider is when the water is sucked down from the overflow, air and CO2/O2 are all pulled in.
Once inside the dry part of the chamber.............the gases degas and equilibrate. Low O2 water is enriched while high CO2 water is re enriched after it degasses and having no where to go, goes back into solution and under the plate to the return pump. Since air has more O2 than the water, the O2 goes in, and no O2 is degassed out.

Thus the filter is selective..........it keeps the extra CO2, but adds more O2 back.

It's a thought experiment, but if you think about it, it might sink in.


----------



## plantbrain

I hacked a sod out of the UG, left it and simply tucked the edge of the rug back under. I'll remove the rest of the rug and then replant plugs well packed into the area later. Did not feel like it yesterday so I left it. 

I re roped the Fissidens and then finally got around to adding the Mini pellia to the wood on the Right side. That was a PITA. The stuff crumbles, makes tying Fissidens in lots of tiny clumps look easy.

Looks nice though. I think I'll cut the shape in Stain steel mesh I want for that area and then use a hair net. Either that or some Green fingers following the flow of the other branches.

The other side with the Fissidens will have another green finger coming out of the middle, I just started a piece of wood that will be used for that. The Downoi has recovered and grown into large nice sized plants pretty fast. The L inclinata grows at a break neck pace. Trimming is aggressive.

I will likely sell the L penuinesis and then move the Ludwigia red to that position. The Rotala Sunset will end up in the Rear I suspect where the R macrandra was. This opens up one space for something new to toy around with in the background area.

The Ludwgia pilosa is coming along nicely and has reddened up more than I thought it would. I'm not sure this is the best scape layout, color scheme to highlight the plant, but.........oh well for now. If I get rid of the L inclinata, it'll be moved back over there, but I do not want two plant so similar in coloration this close. In another 2 weeks or so, I'll have some real nice stems of it and will be able to rescape a larger group and have more options to explore. It contrast nicely with the UG and the Fissidens, and the downoi looks decent as long as I have a Fissidens finger between them.

If I move the L pilosa, then this opens up a new spot in the mid foreground row also.


----------



## faizal

This is like an aquatic plant heaven   .


----------



## flygja

Hey Tom, can you distill your success down to a few simple layman equations and let us know? I am crazy astounded by your tank! I can't even get Rotala rotundifolia to turn red even after blasting with light and spamming iron like mad. Am gonna try limiting NO3 to see if it works. 

I'm starting to think LEDs don't work well with red plants...


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Er...WOW...Just spent an hour or two whizzing through this...a full day at least would be better...what can I say that hasn't already been said...Absolutely awesome  

As the bald guy off Little Britain says..."_I want that one!_"

When I grow up I will have one like this.

What are or should I say were those individual little green plants that looked like thistle heads and how come they stayed so small?

Cheers,

Steve


----------



## plantbrain

flygja said:
			
		

> Hey Tom, can you distill your success down to a few simple layman equations and let us know? I am crazy astounded by your tank! I can't even get Rotala rotundifolia to turn red even after blasting with light and spamming iron like mad. Am gonna try limiting NO3 to see if it works.
> 
> I'm starting to think LEDs don't work well with red plants...



Dosing is simple enough, ADa aqua soil sediment....... the light is also generally.

This leaves CO2.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Dosing is simple enough, ADa aqua soil sediment....... the light is also generally.
> 
> This leaves CO2.



sounds so simple   

that UG is frankly amazing.... starting to think that plants looking like this are just a matter of decades of experience and cant be explained on paper.
Must be nice to have a little smug grin when no one can see you


----------



## plantbrain

No, nothing smug about it.

I freely tell folks what to do, but.....many have trouble with CO2.........or do not believe you and worry about stuff that does not really matter.


----------



## foxfish

There is a huge amount about bubble count on the forums but, you can put this in some perspective when Tom has suggested he uses about one fire extinguishers contents every two - two & a half months.
Toms tank is pretty big & he is using a very efficient & low maintenance method of distributing the C02 but that is quite a lot of gas & I suspect it does not vary much from month to month unlike a lot of other methods.


----------



## plantbrain

CO2 is on for about 7-7.5 hours per day.


----------



## Park

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I hacked a sod out of the UG, left it and simply tucked the edge of the rug back under. I'll remove the rest of the rug and then replant plugs well packed into the area later. Did not feel like it yesterday so I left it.



Amazing UG carpet! What's the secret? Every time I try it it won't grow...   Last time I talked with Troels from Tropica and he suggested that I used some moss as base for the UG, it grew into the moss fine but slowly the leaves got thinner and thinner and fell off! I've got much Ca in my tap water could this be the reason? My water hardness is 17 dHG.


----------



## plantbrain

Low KH is the key, GH can be quite high, but not needed.

Generally, the tap water is about 20ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 (or KH about a little over 1 degree).

So our tap water is very good, SF, NYC also have similar tap water, Seattle etc.

This makes a big difference for some species, most weeds though do not care.


----------



## REDSTEVEO

Hi can anyone tell me what these small green plants are that look like thistle heads just in front of the red plants?


http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312 ... 54116a.jpg


----------



## Park

REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> Hi can anyone tell me what these small green plants are that look like thistle heads just in front of the red plants?
> 
> 
> http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312 ... 54116a.jpg


Some sort of Eriocaulon...


----------



## Park

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Low KH is the key, GH can be quite high, but not needed.
> 
> Generally, the tap water is about 20ppm alkalinity as CaCO3 (or KH about a little over 1 degree).
> 
> So our tap water is very good, SF, NYC also have similar tap water, Seattle etc.
> 
> This makes a big difference for some species, most weeds though do not care.



Crap!!!  my tapwater contains:
permanent hardness: 3,8 °dH
carbonat hardness: 16,5 °dH
total hardness: 20,1 °dH

Well, that explains why I always fail! And RO water isn't an option since I haven't found a RO unit big enough and afordable to use for my 325 l. tank!  But thanks for your answer!


----------



## plantbrain

Ebay has RO 50gpd for about 100$ USD or less that are decent.

2 large trash cans and a small pump to transfer the water should do it.
You'd mix 1/3 Tap water with about 2/3rds RO.

So a 150 liter water change ~ 50% water change you'd only need 100 liters, or one good sized trash can.


----------



## Park

My problem is the waterpressure in our building - i bought a 4 stage RO unit 200 l/day but couldn't get the efficiency to be more than 15% even with a boostpump!  So in these days of protecting the environment I couldn't get myself to use it!!! And I haven't got the possibility of collecting rainwater, which some do and afterward filter it  So until I win the lottery and can afford a industrial machine with an efficiency of 95% I'll have to settle with not having UG!  

But is it the same with R.macrandra - does it also suffer with high kH?


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, mac does not do as well in hard water as softer KH's, you can simply avoid some species, you still have well over 200-300 species to work with and that are not touchy to higher KH valves. I had much harder tap water not long ago.


----------



## plantbrain

The Day's harvest: about 100$ worth of UG. That's 150$ for every 2-3 months. 











Before:




After:




Rotala "sunset" is growing nicely and the leaves are getting larger and wider:








Note the size increase the last 2 weeks on the Downoi scraps & stumps. Now folks would pay good $ for them.
I will move the R sunset to the middle row where the L inclinata is now and move that to the rear or just keep a little bit.
Then allow the downoi to fill back in nicely in the rest of the area:


The Ludwigia pilosa is doing nicely and has reddened up more than I thought it would. I'll keep the position it is at for now, it contrast better and is not as weedy as L inclinata. 


Can you spot the fish recently added?


----------



## Ady34

Nannostomus sp.? They look nice, how many did you add? Its interesting seeing the size difference between the amano shrimp and the fire shrimp too... the amanos are like giants!


----------



## dw1305

Hi all,


> Can you spot the fish recently added?..........Nannostomus sp.?


 _N. mortenthaleri_? (rather than _N. rubrocaudatus_) never kept them, but the males are meant to be quite aggressive with one another.

cheers Darrel


----------



## roadmaster

Sorry for off topic (sorta),
Do the amano shrimp and cherry shrimp get along?
I have load's of cherry shrimp out populating a smaller tank, and would happily move them to 400 litre but am fearful the Amano shrimp would kill them?
I prolly have enough cherry shrimp to sustain SOME predation, but would rather not place them in harm's way.
Tom,your tank is quite beautiful considering the frequent moving/removing of plant's for sale,or just cause you want to.
Stop with all the moving, and selling already  
A little trimming I guess, would be O.K.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

Park said:
			
		

> My problem is the waterpressure in our building - i bought a 4 stage RO unit 200 l/day but couldn't get the efficiency to be more than 15% even with a boostpump!  So in these days of protecting the environment I couldn't get myself to use it!!! And I haven't got the possibility of collecting rainwater, which some do and afterward filter it  So until I win the lottery and can afford a industrial machine with an efficiency of 95% I'll have to settle with not having UG!
> 
> But is it the same with R.macrandra - does it also suffer with high kH?



Sorry for off topic again. There is a membrane pump available witch connected to your RO will give you about 60-70% good water out of the unit.    it costs about 80-100 euro though but is well worth it.


----------



## Park

Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> There is a membrane pump available witch connected to your RO will give you about 60-70% good water out of the unit.    it costs about 80-100 euro though but is well worth it.



Do you have a link?


----------



## Radik

Google self regulating booster pump, or just booster pump it should have 80PSI pressure at least


----------



## plantbrain

roadmaster said:
			
		

> Sorry for off topic (sorta),
> Do the amano shrimp and cherry shrimp get along?
> I have load's of cherry shrimp out populating a smaller tank, and would happily move them to 400 litre but am fearful the Amano shrimp would kill them?
> I prolly have enough cherry shrimp to sustain SOME predation, but would rather not place them in harm's way.
> Tom,your tank is quite beautiful considering the frequent moving/removing of plant's for sale,or just cause you want to.
> Stop with all the moving, and selling already
> A little trimming I guess, would be O.K.



Amanos and cherries are fine, but in a bare tank underfed, then perhaps........

Fire/cherry shrimp are that which cannot die.

As far as not moving things around, it's still an experimental test tank really. 
Some areas feel good so they are left alone. Others need more work.

If the tank is static, then I'm not learning.

My 180 Gal is like that, stable and set in place. See what evolves and trim only.
This is the one tank not like that.


----------



## clonitza

Hi Tom,

I was always wondering if you've got some tips about water distribution around the tank, especially in the ones with lots of hardscape as yours. Your system looks rather simple, with one single outlet .. does the flow manage to cover all areas of the tank? 

I have also a personal question, is it OK if I switch my filter to am Eheim wet/dry, I plan to upgrade mine anyway to a powerful one and I wanted someone with more experience to backup my choice. I know a sump is a better choice but I don't have space for one and I also have some issues with noise at night 

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## plantbrain

clonitza said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> 
> I was always wondering if you've got some tips about water distribution around the tank, especially in the ones with lots of hardscape as yours. Your system looks rather simple, with one single outlet .. does the flow manage to cover all areas of the tank?
> 
> I have also a personal question, is it OK if I switch my filter to am Eheim wet/dry, I plan to upgrade mine anyway to a powerful one and I wanted someone with more experience to backup my choice. I know a sump is a better choice but I don't have space for one and I also have some issues with noise at night
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike



Ehiem is a good choice, that's generally what I could chose. ADA fan boys might chose ADA super jet for 4x the price. 
See the 180 Gal video I posted for flow.


----------



## clonitza

Thanks Tom, the video shows how much flow I should aim for.   

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Ehiem is a good choice, that's generally what I could chose. ADA fan boys might chose ADA super jet for 4x the price.
> See the 180 Gal video I posted for flow.



Where do we find this video Tom ? Do you have a link ?


----------



## foxfish

Here viewtopic.php?f=35&t=21347&p=218111#p218111


----------



## Antipofish

foxfish said:
			
		

> Here viewtopic.php?f=35&t=21347&p=218111#p218111



Cheers FF.


----------



## plantbrain

clonitza said:
			
		

> Thanks Tom, the video shows how much flow I should aim for.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike



Well, sort of, but it's a starting point.

Think about it like this, the O2 and current rise the CO2 ceiling much higher and improved fish health and cycling of all waste MUCH faster and better. 

Say you can only add 30 ppm without gassing the fish.........with good filtration, current etc, you add 1-2ppm more O2 and(or 15-30% more) and you can double the CO2 to 60ppm without issues.

It's a large jump.

But it's not just 100% about adding more CO2.
That is the root issue for algae and other plant issues, but there is much more to it than merely turnign a knob for Co2. :idea:


----------



## clonitza

You're right Tom, I've seen that even if I make my drop checker bright yellow by pumping huge levels of CO2 it doesn't improve my tank health much.
My aim now is to get rid of the biofilm triggered by the organic waste build up, if the bacteria keep up with breaking it I think there will be a huge difference. Now I just have to rely on very low light, frequent water changes and siphoning. I'll see how this is going to turn out and keep you updated.

Cheers,


----------



## plantbrain

You actually do not need to go to extremes with light and CO2 to fix such issues, just slow and steady and watch the tank and be around to see what happens, do not adjust, then leave for the day.


----------



## plantbrain

The hole by the main piece of wood will have more UG added.





I like the color of the R sunset, I did not really give it a chance before.
I can get a nice thicket going and it'll look nice like the L inclinata, but nowhere near as weedy and folks will actually buy sunset off me.

Good choice, but as is the case often times, you have to try it and see what you think.

Just the way it goes most times.
l
1st Harvest from the Elatine hydropiper, the root mat is really dense, more dense that Gloss, HC etc. It stays pretty well rooted unlike most plants this size( dwarf Clover, HC, Gloss even).




Where the tank is headed the next 1-2 weeks.





I am uncertain how the new Alternanthera cardinalis will do, this is a different vareirty than what we typically get in the USA.
The A reineckii tends to do better for me in lower light, as an understory plant.
I want to see if this biotype will be different.
N. pedicillata is the normal type Yellow etc, it is not the Golden N pedicillata from FAN. 
UG will fill in the back side there, more downoi will be trimmed as it grows and will fill that spot in nicely. 



This Right side below hopefully will recover from these new Erio broadleaf. We are not sure what species they are. I mixed some of the smaller trimmings of the Tonina. The yellow leaves are the dying emergent leaves on the Erios. Hopefully they will make it and retain the slight off blue color. I also removed most of the Fissidens, it was a trap for detritus and algae. Mini Pellia seems to work better.


----------



## clonitza

Elatine hydropiper looks great, unfortunately I planted it when the tank wasn't doing great and it melted. I may try it some other time. Does it have some special needs?


----------



## plantbrain

I ran the temps around 82F and it was fine, just likes CO2 a lot.
I ran up to 88-90F and the plant started to brown out in a couple of spots.

Likely the thermal limit is around 84-86F.


----------



## faizal

plantbrain said:
			
		

> But it's not just 100% about adding more CO2.
> That is the root issue for algae and other plant issues, but there is much more to it than merely turnign a knob for Co2. :idea:



I'm sorry Tom but could you be kind enough to eloborate on this please? 
Do you mean things like High turn over rate of the filter, good flow & distribution, general good tank husbandry,etc?


----------



## plantbrain

faizal said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not just 100% about adding more CO2.
> That is the root issue for algae and other plant issues, but there is much more to it than merely turnign a knob for Co2. :idea:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry Tom but could you be kind enough to eloborate on this please?
> Do you mean things like High turn over rate of the filter, good flow & distribution, general good tank husbandry,etc?
Click to expand...


Yes, and in some cases, too high of temp.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## sr20det

plantbrain said:
			
		

> foxfish said:
Click to expand...


Anyone tell me which plant is in the 2nd root, green stem plant at front. In between the two reds, but not the subtrate carpet one.  Closer to the left of the tank.

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain

From the Left:

UG
Red plant Ammannia gracilus 
Spiky Erio cinereum
Fissidens moss on wood
Lighter green stem: Tonina Lotus blossom 
Ludwigia red
Erio setaceum type 3 giant
Foreground Downoi
Red plant " Ludwigia pantanal
Tonina normal type
Red: L perunesis
Hydrocoytle sibthorpides


----------



## plantbrain

Bit murky after uprooting and trimming:

Rotala sunset, collected by local plant club back in the Eastern USA.


----------



## plantbrain

Some new pics:

I removed a lot of plants from the rear, I'll add some Rotala macrandra back perhaps.
I removed the Erio type 3 and put the Hydrothrix back in a row instead as it gardens better over time.
Erios do not like to be crowded too much, that's about all I could figure, the light was plenty and when I placed then in less crowded spaces/spots in the tank, they did nicer.
Also removed the Erio Type 1 as well. I have some Rotala mexicana, but likely the green type, not the red. Also got some Cuphea. See where that goes and also the Bacopa "araguaia".
I cut a linear strip of sod from the E hydropiper and sold that off. Added some S. uaupes, I may add a couple more Synognanthus biotypes/species. 
Did the Erio's, did the Tonina, etc. Time to come back to the Synognanthus perhaps. See which one of the group fits best in some location and stick with one of the 3-4 types available.
Tonina lotus blossom is nice so I'll keep that one, some of the Erio cinereum like group are nice also, I may add Erio aussie type II back as I have some in a tray outside doing very well.

I'd like to get more of the Alternanthera cardinalis as this variety has done well under the higher light. I placed some of the other reineckii under shade and it did well, so did the Nesaea pedicillata. There's just too much light for those 2 species it seems unless they are shaded and placed in a darker spot.
There's not much UG left over from the algae issues, but a few. So it'll be interesting to see how long recovery takes from these 1/2 dead bits to the nice thick rugs.


----------



## plantbrain

Time for some new pics, I removed the Erio type 3 and am going to use more Sygnonathus.


----------



## Ady34

Hi Tom,
i know this tank is used for a bit of a plant testing and as a farm which earns you some money but it would be great to see it all grown in for a final picture type shot with the rear stems, midground and foreground plants all at peak growth.
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## plantbrain

I need to rearrange the color scheme in the back and on the right side. After the Tonina, I'll have the A cardinalis or perhaps the Cuphea, not sure, I like the Cuphea though. I'll be working with the A cardinalis and the Cuphea more, for sure.

I'll add some more S. belem in the rear and remove the rest of the Erio setaceum. I'll add the R wallichii back or maybe go with the Myriophyllum tuberculatum, that was a nicer red copper color, not so pink but not the freaky mauve color either. Easier to trim and manage than wallichii.

Rotala mexicana might be a good replacement in the back corn on the Left side. I have a few stems there now. 

Other changes: the Ech vesuvius might be changed for the L pantanal var "twisty" or I might keep the Ech and work the Twisty in somewhere in the rear. 







Close up of the Rotala sunset from Aaron and Antbug.




You can see the diminutive Cuphea with some small reddish tops in the far right a few inches back next to the L peruinesis.


----------



## plantbrain

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Hi Tom,
> i know this tank is used for a bit of a plant testing and as a farm which earns you some money but it would be great to see it all grown in for a final picture type shot with the rear stems, midground and foreground plants all at peak growth.
> Cheerio,
> Ady.



Due to the various goals, this will occur but not often. 
Also, due to the shape of the tank, and plant design.......... it does not lend well to stereotypical FTS's.
I tend to take a pic based on what people actually look at when they walk by, not the FTS.   

I have a few where the tank was a bit overgrown:





Also, who the heck wants to look at the same old thing all the time? Or simply set up the tank, then tear it down and start something new? I honestly like to set up a decent tank that I enjoy and garden over the long term.


----------



## gex23

I love the detailed composition of this journal, and that attention to detail also translates well to the stunning tank in question.

Anthony.


----------



## plantbrain

I caught the Red phantoms which are great red fish, and put Rummies in the tank, they are FAR better suited to this display.

A very good fit.


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> I caught the Red phantoms which are great red fish, and put Rummies in the tank, they are FAR better suited to this display.
> 
> A very good fit.



Tom are what you call Red Phantoms, the same as what we call Serpae Tetra here ? Or something different  ?


----------



## plantbrain

Antipofish said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I caught the Red phantoms which are great red fish, and put Rummies in the tank, they are FAR better suited to this display.
> 
> A very good fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom are what you call Red Phantoms, the same as what we call Serpae Tetra here ? Or something different  ?
Click to expand...


No, they are different. Behavior and aggressive is different, schooling etc.
Nicer fish than serp's frankly.


----------



## Antipofish

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I caught the Red phantoms which are great red fish, and put Rummies in the tank, they are FAR better suited to this display.
> 
> A very good fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom are what you call Red Phantoms, the same as what we call Serpae Tetra here ? Or something different  ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, they are different. Behavior and aggressive is different, schooling etc.
> Nicer fish than serp's frankly.
Click to expand...


Funny cos since asking the question, I have seen them in two different shops !  I dont like them as much as Serps as far as colouring goes, but thats not the be all and end all of fish, and I know what you mean about aggression, lol.  Although there is a bit of sparring going on they are not outright thugs though


----------



## plantbrain

Rummie noses are a very good match, the best fish yet for the scape.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Congratulations on stealing a rainbow and turning it into a scape.


----------



## plantbrain

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> Congratulations on stealing a rainbow and turning it into a scape.



Must be the Irish in me.


----------



## plantbrain

The Tornado Ludwigia:



















There's a hole on the left side that will add some more Buce's in the rear.

I'll move the E triandra and the H araguaia some, and fill in the red macrandra and the wallichii in the rear again. There are a few other plants, I'll be moving around.
I'll likely remove the tornado and place in the back as a replacement for the P stellata.
Then add a new plant in that spot.

The UG obviously needs to fill in.

I have a few stems of Bacopa salzmannii, has a nice purple coloration and is very easy to grow.
Might work a little with that as an off green color contrast.

I might try the Erio type 3 or the more prostrate Erios again..........or L pilosa.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Fantastic. I think the Dutch style needs more credit than it gets.


----------



## plantbrain

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> Fantastic. I think the Dutch style needs more credit than it gets.



I'm afraid fewer and fewer people are doing the style and giving a more strict approach. 
This aquarium has some elements of Dutch style, but it's a long way away from winning a NBAT type competition.
There are just too many things that do not comply with this tank, regardless of the overall impression.

Still, the grouping and contrast can be viewed as somewhat Dutch.

My so called iwagumi 70 Gal is a far cry from a Japanese style rock garden format display. People refer to it as such, but it's not even remotely close. I honestly do not think about such things when I set up a tank. I do plan some, but it's a very loose plan at best.

I give more thought to Landscaping and Bonsai however.


----------



## plantbrain

These are pics 3 days after treatment with API algae fix.
You can see zero damage to all plant species and fish are fine.

This tank had a touch of BBA flair up due to the purposed reduction in CO2(pH went up 0.3).
This induced a nice healthy aggressive green hair algae bloom mostly, the UG was covered as where most stem plants and the R wallichii.

There is no hair algae left.

I was hoping to test the Algae fix to kill the low grade fire shrimp.
This failed, I found dozens left.

The algae test however, was a success.

Seems the algaefix will kill many/most of the shrimps, but not 100%.
In test tanks without as many plants and soil etc, this is not the case.
Soil likely binds and bacteria laden tanks can perhaps break the pesticide AI much more than the bare tanks.

I'm quite pleased at the selectivity.

As many cannot remove all their shrimp, this at least gives then some chance and perhaps you can remove them here and there during treatment, and there's no adverse impact on mosses or any vascular plants I can discern.

So far this product was effective killing the most troublesome hair algae species(Rhizo, Spirogyra, Vaucheria, Cladophora).
I have not tested it on Algae balls. Those are easy to remove during treatment.

I do not think it kills diatoms, BBA, BGA at all.
Otto's and plecos can address most all diatom issues I've ever seen.

BBA:CO2/Excel Spot treatments with Excel/H2O2, SAE's etc.
BGA:Blackouts, KNO3, EM and KNO3 post dosing.

GDA: I need to hear back from more folks on this. Result seem encouraging. I had a strong aggressive bloom and it took care of it with one treatment. 
Other long time victims are trying it.














Note the UG, the growth and the difference since the Rummies have been removed is astounding.





Compare when I induced the algae:





Then the week prior to that:


----------



## plantbrain

UG Recovery 2nd week after Rummy nose tetras were removed: compare to the above older pics. 





Compare this with the pic posted on 9/20. 





A few days later new growth:


----------



## foxfish

Looking good Tom!
Can I ask you exactly what model NW pump you are using please?


----------



## plantbrain

I do not us ea NW pump of this tank, I just fed the CO2 gas into the intake of the return pump which is not modified at all. The return length is about 1.5 meters. My 70 Gal does the same thing, but the mist is annoying in that tank.
Not so much here.

Not sure why.


----------



## foxfish

OK, thanks, what is the pumps flow rating?
Its just that I am fascinated with your set up, you seem to just use one near surface return from the pump & a surface return to the pump but you must be achieving a complete flow pattern right down to the substrate!
I notice there is plenty of room around most of the plants, is this a key factor?


----------



## REDSTEVEO

plantbrain said:
			
		

> ianho said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looking nice Tom, what lighting have you got over out of interest?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4x 54W T 5's Tek fixture, 3 powerchromes and an aquaflora Gieseman bulbs. Par is about 50 at the sediment.
Click to expand...


George,

Just a quick one, are all those lights you have listed above inside that one pendant unit hanging above the tank? The reason I ask is that I have got a Giesemann Moonlight 260 which I had set up above a marine tank I used to have about ten years ago. The Giesemann Moonlight 260 contains 2 x 150 watt Metal Halides (14000 kelvin) and 2 x T8 30 watt Marine Blue (UV) tubes, and a 5 watt dichrioc spotlight that can be programmed in time with the moon cycle.

The unit has been sat in its original box in the loft for years and I have often thought about getting it down to see if it could be adapted in some way. It cost me about £900.00 when I first bought it so its seems a shame to see it going to waste.

Brilliant photo's by the way.  
Cheers,

Steve


----------



## plantbrain

foxfish said:
			
		

> OK, thanks, what is the pumps flow rating?
> Its just that I am fascinated with your set up, you seem to just use one near surface return from the pump & a surface return to the pump but you must be achieving a complete flow pattern right down to the substrate!
> I notice there is plenty of room around most of the plants, is this a key factor?



About 8x tank volume turnover per hour.

700-800gph. 

Water leaves the filter and shoots across the top and then down in the opposite corner.
Then meanders through the plants and finally back up to the overflow on the far side.


----------



## foxfish

Ok thanks Tom, I am using a aqua turn conversion on a three speed pump, the impella seems to really break up the bubbles without a needle wheel   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aqua-Turn-con ... 3f1c1484f0


----------



## Antipofish

REDSTEVEO said:
			
		

> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ianho said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> looking nice Tom, what lighting have you got over out of interest?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4x 54W T 5's Tek fixture, 3 powerchromes and an aquaflora Gieseman bulbs. Par is about 50 at the sediment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> George,
> 
> Just a quick one, are all those lights you have listed above inside that one pendant unit hanging above the tank? The reason I ask is that I have got a Giesemann Moonlight 260 which I had set up above a marine tank I used to have about ten years ago. The Giesemann Moonlight 260 contains 2 x 150 watt Metal Halides (14000 kelvin) and 2 x T8 30 watt Marine Blue (UV) tubes, and a 5 watt dichrioc spotlight that can be programmed in time with the moon cycle.
> 
> The unit has been sat in its original box in the loft for years and I have often thought about getting it down to see if it could be adapted in some way. It cost me about £900.00 when I first bought it so its seems a shame to see it going to waste.
> 
> Brilliant photo's by the way.
> Cheers,
> 
> Steve
Click to expand...


Steve, there is no reason why you cannot use that light fitting.  In fact, given its price, you SHOULD use it.  The moonlight series are awesome.  Its all a case of how high you hang it... Mark Evans uses MH and he actually says he has quite low light because of how he hangs the halides.  I even saw that you can buy a controller that will fade the halides in and out !!! Someone was selling one on Ebay for £50.  I had that very same unit which I bought for a reef tank I was setting up some time ago.  Ended up selling it before I used it (along with a lot of other expensive reef kit such as a Deltec AP850 skimmer) as I decided to move abroad


----------



## plantbrain

That was the older Tek light I use to have, I now have a much superior ATI fixture with dimmercomputer.

It's wonderful and worth every penny.

I get 50% more light and have full programmable dimming control that's smooth as glass.




This tank used the Tek 4 or 8 bulb fixtures.

I've started using different bulb combos and get much nicer coloration and reflection.
This tank is 6 weeks old at this stage.


----------



## cosmin_ruz

I like it! Plant colors are great!


----------



## plantbrain

Note the UG today and compare about 3.5 weeks ago, there is simply no denying the Rummy nose attacking this plant. 





I am still going to add the Rotala sunset back. I placed it in the 180 Gal and then removed it and placed it back here. It's growing very well so I'll fill that row out in the next 3-4 weeks or so.





Also returned at the Buce's. 
I have some Erios, extra Buce's, and Red tennellus I'm pondering what to do with in the Right corn of the tank:






I may work some wood, moss attached to wood, Mini Pellia attached to wood etc to create a border.......or just add one of those species as a group. I'm leaning towards the Buce's. 
Another weed might be Riccia on a piece of wood etc. 

I'll remove the Blyxa Kimerly.
They will get too large for this tank's display.






Downoi is a really nice plant for this side, does extremely well in this tank. 
L. senegalensis has done very well from the cuttings I got awhile ago. Not the best contrast plant in this tank however. Need to think and search for some better contrast plants with that one. 
L. pilsoa(old name) is in a nice spot, I'll keep that there from now on. There's some smaller grow out Ludwigia pilosa on the far Right also, those will eventually be removed.
I may need to bring back Myriophyllum tuberculatum, nice copper color and very fine pinnate leaves.


----------



## plantbrain

I am going to move the UG to the far left and add Elatine hydropiper in the UG space.
I have some moss and perhaps another red plant for the far Right hand corner. 







Close up of the UG recovery post Rummy nose removal:




Top Right rear corner:




The Ludwigia "pilosa"(old incorrect name) does very well for me, but only recently started to grow straighter.
I removed the H "pinnifata". Also added a Bolbitus short leaf form, will see if it stays small in the 5-6" range.


----------



## tim

super healthy plants tom i never know if i should be awe inspired or soul destroyed when i follow this journal   looking forward to seeing how the hydropier should look grown in


----------



## plantbrain

Rotala magenta seems to be doing well, nice color and location. Hope to see this one bloom nicely in this spot. 
Tonina emergent seems to really be branching lately.


----------



## plantbrain

I spread the UG out and placed it as the main theme for the foreground. 
The E hydropiper came in mush. I'll try again.

I decided to bring out the wonderful Ludwigia sphaerocarpa(old name incorrect: L. pilosa) again for it's own row, this time flanked by UG's bright green grassy color on both sides. 
*
There's a lot of dust settling on the plants after such a massive trim fest.*

This will clear up after a week or so. I'll fluff and preen plants and lightly vacuum off the mulm this weekend. 

I still need to attend the rear groups, I removed some species and then am filling in others like the Ludwigia senegalensis. I will expand the L. tornado variety more and move a few others around. I removed the Rotala "sunset". It will have a permanent home in my 180 Gal and not be trimmed so often. 
I also returned 3 nice Fissidens covered branches. R vietnam is also growing at a break neck pace. Nice plant, but may grow too fast for this tank. I tried to kill it a few times, it keeps worming it's way back.

I've removed the Buce's for the time being, they are in emergent culture for now.
I'll add them back at some point once I figure out "Where", likely in the back Right corner. 
Or on the 60p ADA tank and phase out the Anubias.

The white Anubias has doubled in size over the last month or so. 
Have plans for that one. I still owe Greg a plant from 10-12 years ago, so he will have the 1st dibs if I sell any.














From the couch:


----------



## Ady34

Nice couch view  
Is the fissidens another plant farm addition or simply for aesthetics? also, what is the small unit sitting on top of the outflow weir?...is it an air pump?
Cheerio,
Ady


----------



## hinch

at a guess a peristalsic (sp?) water pump to keep the siphon going in the overflow


----------



## plantbrain

hinch said:
			
		

> at a guess a peristalsic (sp?) water pump to keep the siphon going in the overflow



Yes, but cheaper........12$ USD.

Fissidens is both aesthetics and farm, we get about 15$ for a golf ball or two's worth.


----------



## Stitch

Anyone else seeing this or just me?









Beautiful tank.


----------



## plantbrain

UG is starting to take and fill in. I'll likely Fissidens the wood next to the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa(incorrect:L. pilosa) on the Right side to add some more contrast there. 








Prior to hacking today:







I likely will fill in the L. tornado in the rear more.
I have some R vietnam in the Right corner that's growing fast and will contrast with the R wallichii. 
I plan on having a pretty good sized bunch/patch of L senegalensis and in about 1-2 more weeks, it'll be a massive sight.
The L. sphaerocarpa(old incorrect pilosa) is a fast grower and does very well, better behaved for some reason that in the past. Easy for me to propagate.
S. belem is a decent plant in the rear. Might try something else other than it however. 

The Rotala "sunset" is now in the 180 Gal and I'll keep it in the back ground. It does very well and can grow and branch all it wants in there.




Need to add some more fish.


----------



## plantbrain

I will likely try some Rotala macrandra or some type similar in this hole in the corner.
In the opposite corner, I'll whack the Rotala wallichii and remove it. Then allow the Rotala " vietnam" to fill in.

The UG is still filling in and rooting well, it tends to grow up, then a bit ratty, needs a little trimming etc, then it starts to make a nice dense rug after wards, check back in 3-4 weeks and it should be nice and dense. 
Many seem to think it's not doing well at this stage, but a little patience rewards well.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## clonitza

Looking very nice Tom, I really like the freshness it brings to the dutch style. You should really do soon a proper front photo. 

Mike


----------



## plantbrain

I think Video is the best way to do a viewing personally.


----------



## viktorlantos

Still an amazing colorful forest Tom. It's an amazing journey testing out this much plant gives a great experience for sure.


----------



## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:
			
		

> Still an amazing colorful forest Tom. It's an amazing journey testing out this much plant gives a great experience for sure.



I'll do a video before Xmas. 

I want some nice schooling fish and more shrimp in here before I shoot a video. I've been pretty good about not choosing more common easier species and ones I can sell for decent $.

I plan on adding more ADA aqua soil to raise the Downoi up higher for better viewing and more sloping front to back.
One of the original goals was to have each row running a nice 15 degree slope from the front to the rear in classic dutch trimming methods. I do this a little, but have not focused much on this. For a good photo shoot, and video, I'll need to do that.

I have some new plants coming in from Asia this week, so I'll see what works out nicest.


----------



## plantbrain

Close up of the UG. You can see some older original leaves covered in algae buried in there, but all the newer growth is clean. This was without the aid of algae eaters that pick off such algae, eg a horde of Amano shrimp.
Every so often I'll run a high light tank without any significant algae eaters to see. I'll be adding a horde tomorrow, but it's nice to see what happens even without them. 







The Couch view is a nice spot to look at the tank. I replanted some of the UG closest to you. I hacked the pantanal and the Tonina, but really hacked and spread out of the Ludwigia senegalensis. This next cycle will grow and fill in a pretty large space full of that, and I moved the Syn belem to the rear corner.
This pictures illustrates the main piece of wood pretty well.

Someone said like a T rex or a squid. 





Close up of the mucky mulm corner. This is where all the filth will end up.







The right side again: once this grows out 1-2 cycles, I'll be reasonably happy with it.







The left side? Well, I need to try a  few more things still.







I'm not entirely happy with the color of the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa. I need a nice shade of red, but this is not it. I can move this plant to the middle rear or the left corner so there's a home for it.
But I'd like a different contrast around that UG to balance the other reds which are stronger. As is, the color combo is very weak on the left side vs the right.

The rear left corn needs some work to make the plants I desire and the color and textures to come together.
I'm not willing to forgo the Buce's and put them elsewhere, they need to stay in this shaded region as understory plants.
I also still want to see them some also.

I will need to find a suitable piece of twisty wood to put back there to elevate them and then plant a bright red larger leaf or green thick bunch plant back in there.
I also have some Mini pellia that needs a home and the darker color against the UG will look good in the corner.
I also need to add some more ADA soil to fluff up the downoi and make replanting easier in a few of the rows.


----------



## foxfish

Really looking forward to the video. could you please include a little footage with the gas running as I would like to get the feel of just how much you are pumping in.


----------



## plantbrain

Like an idiot, I thought adding Blue tetras to the tank in my impatience might be nice. I caught them all today and removed them. Meaner than a Manx. 

Boraras brigittae is the real plan and I could not find them but ...since....... have.

I added about 30 Botia sidthimunkii, they always do well.
And added about 100 white back and 100 Amano shrimps.
The double trunk Elelphant nose, gold nuggets and the fire shrimp remain. There's a few pencil fish and a red phantom I've not been able to catch also.


----------



## Ady34

I considered blue teras for my tank too, but after seeing them squabbling in the shop I thought better of it.....doesn't make for relaxing viewing!
I bet 30 dwarf chain loach is a beautiful sight, will be good to know how they fare with the shrimp as I like these loaches a lot but fear they may eat my shrimp. Amanos may be ok. Would be nice to see some photos of the loaches  
Cheerio,
Ady


----------



## plantbrain

They really never bothered the shrimp. I've kept them for years, these small Botia did not bother the CRS's either.


----------



## Ady34

plantbrain said:
			
		

> They really never bothered the shrimp. I've kept them for years, these small Botia did not bother the CRS's either.


That's good to know thanks Tom. Just need to remortgage the house to get a nice group of them now


----------



## plantbrain

Ah forget owning the house, just move back in with mom and pops


----------



## plantbrain

UG is starting to finally fill it and lay flatter. Many people kept pestering me with questions as to why it looked yellow etc.
I stated once it fills in dense, it's top greener leaves will flop over as it becomes a denser and denser mat.

Most never even get their UG this dense. And it's not yet done.
I do not trim it down to get it to stay short like this, it does this on its own. I'll trim  errant runners, but that's about it and very very minor.

Other plants are coming along well enough. Be another month or two perhaps before it's in full bloom.
I'll add some more Fissidens to the branches here and there as it grows out also, some of the plants in the Rear Left corner need to grow in more.
I may also tie some Mini pellia to a few branches in the rear.


----------



## Ady34

Looks nice Tom, very vibrant, and with the ug filled in its looking 'lush' again too.

Could you tell me what species the plant is that forms the left most band running from front to back between the ug?

The Botias are lost in that tank, really puts into perspective how big it is , i can spot them in the top 2 pics in the right front corner.
Cheers,
Ady.


----------



## paulsouthuk

Just wanted to say how lovely the tank looks. I wish it was in my lounge! How much pruning do you do it looks very manicured. I'm one envious bloke!!!!


----------



## plantbrain

Ady34 said:
			
		

> Looks nice Tom, very vibrant, and with the ug filled in its looking 'lush' again too.
> 
> Could you tell me what species the plant is that forms the left most band running from front to back between the ug?
> 
> The Botias are lost in that tank, really puts into perspective how big it is , i can spot them in the top 2 pics in the right front corner.
> Cheers,
> Ady.



That would be an USA native _Ludwigia sphaerocarpa_. It was brought into the hobby by Cavan and a few friends in the GWAPA group here on the East Coast. Very nice plant. I'll be sending some to Tropica and to an UK friend who's shipped me some plants. So it should hopefully appear in the UK sometime. sort like L perunesis/granulosus but different leaf shape and color, it's easier to grow actually than perunesis(at least for me).

I have been trying to promote this plants.

The Botias are tiny, they will get 3-4x larger over the next few months/years.
One of the best all around fish for the FW aquarist. 

Most of my tanks appear "small", till you see them in person. I set my tanks up for the people that live around them, no one else.


----------



## plantbrain

paulsouthuk said:
			
		

> Just wanted to say how lovely the tank looks. I wish it was in my lounge! How much pruning do you do it looks very manicured. I'm one envious bloke!!!!



Well, I sell the cuttings, so pruning = $
I farm aquatic plants and they make good $ since I keep the more pricier hard to find species. 
I add more than folks ask for when buying and they come to them in really vigorous shape. 
So I can charge a fair price for them.

So pruning is not a chore I do not get an allowance for

I trim some rows and patches here and there, but many stay in the same stop, maybe topping the tips and planting those to thickening the group up more. So I really only trim maybe once every 2 months for many, and then might spend maybe 10-15 min carefully trimming any decay or poor plant parts off with scissors or fingers. I have a few day window to do this before things get ratty, which is plenty of time actually. I also do a large water changes 1-2x a week, so while the tank drains/refills, I clean the filter, trim and net shrimp out of the overflow box.

Tonina sells for about 40$ for 6 stems, tornado, maybe 45$ for 6 stems. Most sell those plants like 10-15$ per stem or ebay I see 20-40$ per stem. UG? A small 5cm x5cm rug? 40$ Will be sold in a couple of hours max. Red pantanal? 4-6$ per stem, I sell 6 nice size ones for about 30$. Starougyne from my 180? 25$ for 20+ plants. Belem hair grass(the same clone that Tropica sells now), 35$ for a 5cmx 25cm sod. So 200$ on a weak no growth month, maybe 500-600$ on a good month. Certainly enough to fund the electic build and supplies. Screw competitions, I make more than the prize money every years, and year after year. 

Only took me 35 years of losing money to learn how to make money in this hobby  
But this tank and the others have all paid for themselves a few times over now. 

So spending a lot of $ on a special plant species, or a really nice light, CO2 dual stage regulator etc, all worth while for me. I'll make enough back to pay for it. My time is free, but it's therapeutic also.


----------



## mvasingh

Hi Tom
What is a "CO2 dual stage regulator"

Mike


----------



## plantbrain

mvasingh said:
			
		

> Hi Tom
> What is a "CO2 dual stage regulator"
> 
> Mike



This might be too much Information(TMI):

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.ph ... Regulators


----------



## Ady34

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Ady34 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks nice Tom, very vibrant, and with the ug filled in its looking 'lush' again too.
> 
> Could you tell me what species the plant is that forms the left most band running from front to back between the ug?
> 
> The Botias are lost in that tank, really puts into perspective how big it is , i can spot them in the top 2 pics in the right front corner.
> Cheers,
> Ady.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be an USA native _Ludwigia sphaerocarpa_. It was brought into the hobby by Cavan and a few friends in the GWAPA group here on the East Coast. Very nice plant. I'll be sending some to Tropica and to an UK friend who's shipped me some plants. So it should hopefully appear in the UK sometime. sort like L perunesis/granulosus but different leaf shape and color, it's easier to grow actually than perunesis(at least for me).
> 
> I have been trying to promote this plants.
> 
> The Botias are tiny, they will get 3-4x larger over the next few months/years.
> One of the best all around fish for the FW aquarist.
> 
> Most of my tanks appear "small", till you see them in person. I set my tanks up for the people that live around them, no one else.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Tom   
Hopefully we'll see it soon in the uk as it looks very nice.
Ady.


----------



## plantbrain

Ady34,

They have been running 20 pounds per stem is would seem.


----------



## Ady34

plantbrain said:
			
		

> Ady34,
> 
> They have been running 20 pounds per stem is would seem.


   for me.....
 8)  for you, as you have lots of it!

Hopefully, like your eleocharis sp. mini, it will make it into the mainstream at affordable prices for the hobbyist.


----------



## plantbrain

Some have had trouble growing it, but I am not one of those people. I also am able to scape nicely with the plant, and nice pretty pic in a decent scape sells the plant better than all the talk in the world.
Price should come down.

I must have about 300-400 pounds worth by your market rates. 
I'll be shipping some to the UK this week(maybe 10 or so).


----------



## jojouk

Amazing


----------



## plantbrain

If someone can send me 6-10 cups of the Elatine hydropiper, some A reineckii mini, I'll send you 10 stems of the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa
Express mail each way, even trade.


----------



## plantbrain

I plan on removing some of the UG where the downoi are now and expanding this to break the continuous line of UG in the front.
I want a wide path that tends to narrow some towards the back of the Downoi. I've not tried the Red macrandra in the left side before.
We will see how it does in the higher current.





The Ludwigia tornado looks nice from above and contrast well once it's dense enough.








Top view. You can see the new Rotala macrandra I added in the lower left side, very mauve colored, this is typical in very high light tanks. it's a freaky color.
Most seek/expect a more red blood or red cherry color generally.







Side view, shows some recently UG replanting.







Shows a close up on the UG and some other species.






FTS:


----------



## sanj

Love the UG, its a plant I have not really tried yet... apart from the half dead thing that came through the post.


----------



## plantbrain

UG does not ship well.


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside

Its absolutely stunning in your tank though Tom. That Ludwiga 'Tornado' is amazing aswell


----------



## andyh

Top knotch as always Tom, really like your uniform planting style, Its defo your signature style in my opinion.

The plant health is amazing!


----------



## plantbrain

Whitey89 said:


> Its absolutely stunning in your tank though Tom. That Ludwiga 'Tornado' is amazing aswell


 
I did not like it as much as I thought initially. then later, I figured out how to make it denser and get it really growing well. It does grow a bit slower at 1st.
I like and want nice thick large dense groups, so I replanted the tops a few times and used the stumps to sprout new side shoots, then after a couple of rounds of that, I have a nice bunch of healthy larger stems.
As these grow out, I sell a few nicer tops, then save the side shoots and lower portions to fill out again.


----------



## plantbrain

andyh said:


> Top knotch as always Tom, really like your uniform planting style, Its defo your signature style in my opinion.
> 
> The plant health is amazing!


 
Well, it's one style. I have a number of styles. Wall of plants was one for a number of tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

The UG has piled up and grown more aggressively than in the past. As such, it's not really a foreground plant for a long time frame nor is easy to keep that way in this tank.

I'll keep the bigger pile in the front middle section and then return to more group style with multiple species rather than a single foreground type.

It was well worth a try though with the UG. the problem side has always been the Left. I have Rotala macrandra there now, it'll grows very nice there, but it's a high current region, so it'll be all over the place. I'll move it to the rear behind the main tree trunk.

Some options for the last red row: Rotala butterfly, there's some at the end of the row , about 4 stems. Not sure if it'll do favorably in the row however. 
Rotala sunset, I have some growing in another tank, problem: it does not like to be transplanted often which is required by this tank and the row in question. I can do it, but it's more work than it should be. Return the Lud sphaerocarpa back to that location. It does okay but is a pale red, I wanted something more intense. L peruensis does well,m but is very common etc and has the same color as the L. red next to it. I have L arcuata, but it's too spindly. L inclinata was okay, but gets ratty and grows too fast. 

The search for the plant that goes there continues.









Some changes are afoot:


----------



## plantbrain

It'll be getting some Elatine in soon for that front spot, removing some if not most of the Fissidens and replacing with mini pellia. Added some new plants, L gigantea is a nice weed that now is in the middle front row.


----------



## plantbrain

Removed the L sphaerocarpa, had extra R macrandra, but it'll be waving all over in this spot pretty bad.


----------



## plantbrain

Still have not decided what plant will go in the front section in the middle, but likely will try some E hydropiper again and perhaps HC./Mic umbrosum "Monte Carlo".
R. macrandra is in a serious need of a trim.

UG is starting to actively grow/fill back in. Seems to not do much for 4-8 weeks, then takes off.
Pantanal is shaping up better after a  slight CO2 issue.

I've learned this tank is very touchy about CO2, mostly related to the very high light values.
I may slow things down and drop to 75% max output like the 180 Gallon.
The other idea is to add a dual pipe bean animal like CPR prefilter and this will help a fair amount on this tank.
I'll do this in a month or so.


----------



## RynoParsons

Been folowing this tank for a long tank now. I still love it. Never seen plants that healthy. Loved the thick UG carpet.


----------



## plantbrain

Hopefully in another 2-3 months, it'll be at the peak. I might even break out the nice camera equipment and do a real photo shoot.
The Rear Right has some P stellata which has nice purple color on the abaxial side of the leaves, the plants are not not visible in the pics.
Obviously some trimming of the macrandra and some growing in by some other plants, but that will be fairly quick at this point.

I'll try a few different plants in the front central foreground area.
I'd like to get some Dwarf mini Riccia since it's fast and easy.

Then get a few pics and try something else.


----------



## BigTom

Not at all the style of tank I would ever have myself, but I do enjoy the updates to this thread Tom. Some of the colour combinations are outrageous.


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## macek.g

Tom update please


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## LondonDragon

Hi Tom, whats the current dosing regime for this tank? Thanks



macek.g said:


> Tom update please


He updated it Tuesday lol


----------



## O'Neil

Am I right in thinking that you don't use Co2 in this tank?


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## Ady34

plantbrain said:


> Pantanal is shaping up better after a slight CO2 issue. I've learned this tank is very touchy about CO2, mostly related to the very high light values.





Porksword said:


> Am I right in thinking that you don't use Co2 in this tank?


...doh!


----------



## O'Neil

Ady34 said:


> ...doh!


 
If theres a way to "put my foot in it".......I'll find it, lol.


----------



## macek.g

[quote He updated it Tuesday lol [/quote]

ups


----------



## Ady34

plantbrain said:


>


Ooh, loving the Gold Nugget? plecs


----------



## plantbrain

Some sections are progressing well, still waiting for some plants for that front section.
The Mic umbrosum monte carlo is growing even if I had one tiny sprig to start. A single sprig of E hydropiper also made it.
Mini pellia is growing in on a few pieces of the wood nicely. I'll tie some more on today.
I much prefer the look of this compared to Fissidens which can get a bit weedy and frags everywhere.
I'm okay with the Rotala macrandra now where it's at, I resisted placing it there for a long long time.
It's relatively manageable in this location also.
UG is always happiest in this far corner.
I'm not entirely happy with the color development of the L acruata, but it's shaded by the main wood and the other Myrio behind it. 
I might remove it and then allow the mini butter fly to arc around the back side of the wood over to that location. People by that plant, they do not buy L arcuata really.
I topped 90% of the L senegalensis this time instead of uprooting. Then replanted the tops. Does not give quite as nice look while those tops grow back and the bottoms resprout.
But I'll have a pretty dense even growth after wards. When I topped and replanted only fresh tops, the plants grew much faster also. But I did not get a lot of production for sale....and it's more work.
I'll uproot and replant the Downoi in a week or so, this will clean that spot up some and make it more even/uniform.
I suppose I could try the A. reineckii mini, but the long term look/care is critical for the locations I want for that plant.

Hygro Chai is another one I'll be working with, likely will phase out the H araguaia or move it over where the L acurata is now and put the chai up front.

As far as Gold nuggets, there's another one in this pic below also. The R macrandra trimmed low like this looks decent, I do not like it so tall and whipping in the current.


----------



## plantbrain

The monte carlo Micrantherum is growing in nicely.
Mini A reineckii is doing well. Dwarf riccia on the branch will be expanded here and there.
Removed the Fissidens branch on the far right side and replaced with a thicker Mini pellia branch. I'll add more as I harvest of can buy more of the mini pellia to fill that section in, the branch will fill in nicely, but it'll take a couple of weeks.


----------



## plantbrain

BTW, I jokingly said that the A reineckii is selling for 50$ a stem, and just pulled that $ out of my butt, well.....2 people are offering it for that amount it seems as they thought I was serious.  
Haha, I'm a schiester.


----------



## plantbrain

I tried to put a large lace plant in the rear right corner, but it was just too large.
I'll try E gussonii in the front open spot.
You can see the trim method for the Monte carlo, it's much firmer than you think, it's a tough thick mat, nowhere near as delicate as Gloss, ET, EH etc.
It'll slowly crawl over things.
I replaced about 10 sq ft in a client's tank with that little strip I removed, so it's very dense growth.
Fish did not uproot it at all.
Client's tank is running about 35-25 micromol where it's growing and it appears to have a very wide light tolerance.



[/URL]


[/URL]


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## plantbrain

Tank is hazy from the pearling and CO2 etc. Note the trim method I use for the Monte Carlo, this is really well highlighted here.
The Erio parkeri need some time to fatten up and adapt, I mowed the L senegalensis and replanted the tops in the bare rear corner, this would do well as a contrast in and of itself.

I'll still get a couple of different pondweeds and add them in the back corner, but I may modify the shape of each of the groups to do this.
Monte Carlo is really looking nice, as you can tell by my trim method, which I seem to be the only person I've ever witness do this technique..........
I cut a 1-2" sod in the front, then the plant cascades down to the front edge nicely like this. Other foreground plants do this and it does not look tacky with the foreground plant all pressed up against the glass. I've never liked that look. I think this method looks far better and merely requires some easy to do pruning methods. You also get a nice sod to sell and recovery is fairly quick.
"Mini" A. renieckii is doing better than I'd anticipated. I'll have more to sell in a week or so. It'll get taller, but if you trim it once every 1-2 months, it'll stay fairly nice and short.
UG is at that threshold from looking crappy to where it'll look like a nice thick consistent mat. In 1-2 weeks, it'll be looking pretty good again. R macrandra has survived the high current and many repeated aggressive trimmings.


----------



## sanj

You have Munkis, I love those loaches, cheeky little fellas. I keep about 25, can be lost in a big tank, but not when they group up and go on a patrol around the tank.

Just a question, have you had any experiance with these and Assassin snails.


----------



## plantbrain

They really do not go after Assassins or the side winder little snailers, god, I hate those.
They leave the shrimps alone also.
Most eat Physa pond snails is all and not very well.
Botia striata, that is the most effective snail eaters I've found.
Another nice loach, but not as nice as 50 of the dwarfs.
Not sure if B striata would go after the RCS. I doubt they would mess with Amano's.


----------



## plantbrain

I'll be trimming some more sod, this time in the middle of the Monte Carlo, the plant will fill back in maybe 2-3 weeks and be thinned out. You end up having these nice cool looking waves depending at what time you cut the sod and wait for the new growth to reinvade.


----------



## faizal

No matter at which angle you view this tank,...the plant health is next to none. Tom you are an absolute genius. The plants look so thick & plumpy. How do you manage such high light levels & correspondingly high co2 levels without affecting the fauna?Also a very dumb question here but do you run an airstone during lights off period?


----------



## plantbrain

I never liked aeration at night, all it does is suspend more particles which cause the water to be cloudy.

A decent filter, good surface movement etc, that...does better than the best aeration.

Good O2, filtration and good adjustment of the CO2.

Realize that CO2 goes in, but it also goes out(degassing), if the degassing is stable, and the addition is stable, then you can add a fair amount, and then you also have a lot of O2, that makes it easier on the livestock.


----------



## plantbrain

Quite a few changes and reworked areas, added about another 9 liter bag of ADA AS to the tank.
Removed most of the wood row dividers and replaced them.
Red Ludwigia is gone, replaced with a short row of L. ovalis "pink". Not much different, but grows slower and more bushy, so I like it.
Gone are 2 weeds: L pantanal and L. gigantea.
To hell with them.
I expanded the Tonia, trimming it and making it look nice with this no# is a PITA, but they sell well and does not grow fast. 
I moved the R macrandra to the rear, pulled the A. renieckii small form up front. Seems to be doing well after a couple of weeks.
UG is out of control and will need uprooted and replanted soon. It tends to look bad and ratty while growing back in longer than it looks good. 
But, I've never seen anyone's UG look like mine.
Erios are back, they are nice to deal with.
I may try to bring back the Erio type 3 into this tank also.
I like the plant a great deal, but the current was wrong for the location I had it.
I added a very nice piece of wood behind the main piece, and will need to prop it up after it settles a bit more, so it can be seen better and the placement is correct.
I needed to add a couple of stones to weigh down the new wood divider.
I'll allow the downoi to fill out and take over the foreground as it grows in there.
The L segengalsis will be pruned like a hedge from now on, I am not uprooting and replanting the tops every week or two.
I did this to the mini butter fly and it responded very well.
I need to redo some of the smaller piece of wood/add Mini pellia to them, prop the larger piece in the back up some, but the general placement is fairly decided for the next few weeks.
Till I change my mind once again.
Tank is very cloudy due to the rework, at least you can see the fish some.


----------



## anasarka

Hi Tom, it was interesting to me how many types of plants you grow so far. And is there ever a plant that you have failed to grow?


----------



## macek.g

I'll miss the L. Pantanal


----------



## plantbrain

anasarka said:


> Hi Tom, it was interesting to me how many types of plants you grow so far. And is there ever a plant that you have failed to grow?


 

Well, no, but some have failed to grow the way I want them to grow.
Some did not LIKE the placement, or the current, or the light, or to be crowded, or trimmed more frequently etc.

Growing is a rather easy aspect. Aesthetic pruning is quite another matter.


----------



## plantbrain

macek.g said:


> I'll miss the L. Pantanal


 

I don't.

But, it's been moved to the 180 Gallon where it grows really consistent and have 3-4 week trim intervals, a little less lighting etc.
So I still have it.


----------



## plantbrain

A day or two after a lot of reworking.
I trimmed and replanted some of the UG.
Added all new divider wood slats.
Re tied the and expanded the Mini pellia covered branches.
Trimmed the background plants back a lot.
I'll likely swap the Ludwigia senegalensis and the Alternanthera mini. 
The long Downoi row will look nice in a few weeks.
The old Ludwigia red is no longer in this aquarium, the plant in the middle is the Much rarer "pink ovalis".

Where the L senegalensis is now, that was where the pantanal was prior, it's a PITA spot to trim because of the wood over head. 
It also takes the full brunt of the current if I let things over grow, then I'll get algae on the plants at that spot.
You will note the return is now white and has a larger outflow, instead of the older 3/4" PVC, I went to a loc Line, which bis about 40% smaller than the 3/4" PVC, now this is a 3/4 to 1" elbow and this produces a nicer current, lower pressure and wider dispersion.
I'm going to see how a 1 and 1/4" and 1.5" elbow return works, then have one made out pyrex/kimax glass.


----------



## Alastair

plantbrain said:


> A day or two after a lot of reworking.
> I trimmed and replanted some of the UG.
> Added all new divider wood slats.
> Re tied the and expanded the Mini pellia covered branches.
> Trimmed the background plants back a lot.
> I'll likely swap the Ludwigia senegalensis and the Alternanthera mini.
> The long Downoi row will look nice in a few weeks.
> The old Ludwigia red is no longer in this aquarium, the plant in the middle is the Much rarer "pink ovalis".
> 
> Where the L senegalensis is now, that was where the pantanal was prior, it's a PITA spot to trim because of the wood over head.
> It also takes the full brunt of the current if I let things over grow, then I'll get algae on the plants at that spot.
> You will note the return is now white and has a larger outflow, instead of the older 3/4" PVC, I went to a loc Line, which bis about 40% smaller than the 3/4" PVC, now this is a 3/4 to 1" elbow and this produces a nicer current, lower pressure and wider dispersion.
> I'm going to see how a 1 and 1/4" and 1.5" elbow return works, then have one made out pyrex/kimax glass.



Beuatiful tom. I love the layout and colours are really vibrant

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2


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## plantbrain

The reds of this bunch of plants are less intense, but the same type of patterning. I'll move some things around to make it a bit better for myself, trimming easier etc, better access to the weedy species etc.

The Ludwigia Pink ovalis is nice because it's a slower grower than the L. "red" which looks very similar.
The L senegalensis I can trim by topping, no uprooting required, same for the Rotala mini butterfly it responds very well to that method, making the job easier and then dust and muck less.


----------



## foxfish

Looks like a salt water rock pool at low tide in the last pic .. Very vibrant indeed !


----------



## foxfish

Looks like a salt water rock pool at low tide in the last pic .. Very vibrant indeed !


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## George Farmer

Hi Tom

This tank never fails to impress me. It's a fine example of a high-energy set-up where any plant can be grown at peak performance. 

The colours are incredible. Not particularly to my taste as an aquascaper but I have total respect as a gardener.

If you had to sum up the top 5 lessons you've learnt from this tank so far, what would they be?

Can you remind us all about some of the technical specs, please? Lighting, CO2, dosing, filtration etc.

Cheers,
George


----------



## plantbrain

Tide pools are another one of my hobbies also. i have not set up a marine tank for myself in a awhile. 
I am waiting till we buy a home, then I'll add 2. One a reef and then the old will be a cold water marine macro/seagrass system.


----------



## plantbrain

George Farmer said:


> Hi Tom
> 
> This tank never fails to impress me. It's a fine example of a high-energy set-up where any plant can be grown at peak performance.
> 
> The colours are incredible. Not particularly to my taste as an aquascaper but I have total respect as a gardener.
> 
> If you had to sum up the top 5 lessons you've learnt from this tank so far, what would they be?
> 
> Can you remind us all about some of the technical specs, please? Lighting, CO2, dosing, filtration etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> George


 

1. Contrast between species is an excellent teacher of what and where to place plant groups, regardless of style of the aquascaper. Teaches you how to use the colors as painter.
2. As always, as you learn to grow a new species, you learn more about gardening overall
3. Color has a strong impact, even as much as the best done scape without much color.
4. Not to pay attention to "styles", if it looks good, it is good.
5. Demonstrates a clear example of having an aquarium where you can make $ selling/farming plants/livestock and rotate them as new species become available, and have a nice scape to show various gardening methods. 

Tank clearly shows there are no long term issues when you add high levels of light, CO2 and ferts at the gardening/aquascaping or growing scales with virtually every species of plant combination.
The only issues really are where to sell the plants. If you make 500$ a month from trimming a single aquarium in plant sales alone, then you have much more motivation to care for the aquarium correctly.
 Only took me 30 years to figure out how to do it

Light is an ATI dimmer control 8x54 W bulb(8 hours total, but the ramp up is 1-2 hours at each end of the light cycle).

CO2 comes on with the lights, but the ramping up of the CO2 and the Light match evenly. CO2 goes off about 30 minutes before the lights do.
Dual stage CO2 custom made regulator and high end stainless steel set up. CO2, best I can assess: 50 ppm most of the time. 


Filter is a CPR overflow with dual pipes and a CPR 1000 sump sealed lid. 
Flow is about 900 gph, had a Vortech MP20, but removed it, no need really.
Switched back to a larger outflow 26 mm vs about 18 mm, will modify this to get a larger flow, with less pressure, more even flow seems critical, but you want nice even flow, not just high flow.
High flow but low velocity/pressure is ideal, like a slow moving river, vs a a single intense water coming into a large pool.

This is what is key about flow, not so much total volume of the filter etc.

Dosing is somewhat EI, modified.
I dose this amount 2-3x a week:
15 ppm of NO3/K+(1.5 teaspoons KNO3)
5 ppm of PO4(a little under 1 teaspoon)
GH booster; about 1.5 Tablespoons after each water change
Traces: CMS+B with DTPA Fe and Fe Gluconate: 4:1:1 teaspoons in 1 liter of hot tap water: dose about 30-60mls daily, some days I miss etc.

Fish about 40 Botia sidthimunkii, 4 G. elephas elephant nose, 4 Gold nuggets, 2-3 otto cats, 1 red arc pencil that never jumped out with the rest of the others. 70 Amano shrimp? 200 Fire shrimp?

I have 2 new tanks coming up that will very different from this tank.
Much lower energy tanks, but will have some similar elements: rare species, unique use of hardscape materials, Farming that will pay for the tank and equipment many times over the next 1-2 years.
While I have some pricey high grade aquarium toys, they have made their $ back many times over now.  

No sense is stopping that now.

Does not matter if you are the best aquascaper in the world, you will always enjoy an eclectic species tank. Appeals to the collectoritus in all of us.
Dutch, Nature, grower, does not matter, it's a universal trait. But, I do not enjoy just one method or style.
So one tank like this one, then some others over the spectrum are fine.


----------



## plantbrain

Also, after a few weeks of new growth and tweaking, the tank will fill in nice and you'll see the end result then.


----------



## Iain Sutherland

plantbrain said:


>


 
hey tom, could you remind whats the name of  the pink hue stem in the middle.
Tanks looking beautiful as always.


----------



## plantbrain

Ludwigia vertilicillata variety Red pantanal


----------



## Iain Sutherland

thanks tom, its a lovely plant so will try and hunt it down this side of the pond.


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## plantbrain

A few folks have it, maybe not looking like that per se, but with time and lighting, you should be able to pull it off.
I removed it and added to my 180 gallon where it does better and is not so much work to tend to. As people buy it for 45$ shipped for 6 stems here in the USA, I do not mind having it around. And it grows really fast.


----------



## Brian Murphy

Iain Sutherland said:


> thanks tom, its a lovely plant so will try and hunt it down this side of the pond.


 
I've been searching for it for ages ..... even asked TGM with no luck


----------



## plantbrain

I've shipped to EU, but it's about 50/50 with that plant, best to try in the Fall.
I know there are plenty of people that have it over there, it's a fast growing weed so if anyone wanted to sell it all day long, they easily could.


----------



## Brian Murphy

plantbrain said:


> I've shipped to EU, but it's about 50/50 with that plant, best to try in the Fall.
> I know there are plenty of people that have it over there, it's a fast growing weed so if anyone wanted to sell it all day long, they easily could.


 
I noticed the plant about a year ago and went searching for it with no luck whatsoever over here ..... I'd love to get hold of some


----------



## plantbrain

I am going to go back to some older plant species I had prior as they make a better contrast statement.
Likely R. wallichii and Ludwigia perunesis. Will tidy up the Tonia and make a "L" shaped row instead of a triangle wedge.
Will add 2-3 more Erios to match the downoi on the right side.
Need to hack the Monte Carlo back in a huge way. 
This will be done this coming week. I will do a few smaller wood changes in the front array.


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi Tom

The Monte Carlo is insane !!! 
Do you still put a lot of work on this tank or you back off a little bit ? 

Regard


----------



## plantbrain

I stopped doing so much work on the tank, you can see some plant species subs and I've just been topping the background plants, not uprooting.
I seek a balance with the work though, so some stems will return even though they offer little $ sales and require more work perhaps.


----------



## aliclarke86

Does the MC yeald much of a profit?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## plantbrain

aliclarke86 said:


> Does the MC yeald much of a profit?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


 


Yes, but I typically spread and use the plant in various client's or friends, other tanks and get a lot of it going so I can learn more about it, then I have a lot to sell.
A little delayed gratification helps.

The bricks are solid plant biomass, so a 8x8cm brick is a lot of plants!


----------



## zanguli-ya-zamba

Hi 
Yes I could see that you put less work on the tank. But I wanted to be sure haha. 
But it is still an amazing tank. 
Hope during fall I will find this Monte Carlo !! Really want to have it. 
Do you already try grow it in emerge form ? 
Because as all the plant I have order I would like to have a back up and stock in our tropical pond here. For future scape. 

Regards


----------



## Team Steve

Really love the look of this tank, minus the green wedge at the front which I feel is drawing too much attention.

What the reason for the tank not looking crystal clear? bacterial bloom?


----------



## plantbrain

Team Steve said:


> Really love the look of this tank, minus the green wedge at the front which I feel is drawing too much attention.
> 
> What the reason for the tank not looking crystal clear? bacterial bloom?


 

If you read through the post, you will see I just redid and moved a lot of plants around, when you do this with sediment like ADA aqua soil, it'll cloud the tank.
There's also mad pearling and a little CO2 mist, you are looking at front to back distance of about 80cm also, much deeper than most aquariums, then I took the pic with high light, which reflects and washes out the colors and gives a whitish cloudy look.
Note, this is not a finished photoshot. This is just how it is right then when I happen to take a pic, warts and all.

the green MC wedge has been hacked, but I cut sod and sell that, I took from the rear of the mound this time and have allowed it to grow out to highlight the new plant as a nice viable foreground new species for the hobby. I'll pull the sucker back little by little over time.
I have it growing in a client's tank so I'll have plenty and can allow this patch to become smaller. Come back and view various point sin time and you'll see different stages and management methods, that's the point.
If I merely topped and let the tank just go without uprooting and only taking pics once every 2-3 months, well, then............but I tend to take pics weekly. This helps folks get to those perfect stages much better.

So no, it's nothing to do with bacteria and a lot to do with mulmy dust from the ADA aqua soil dust from uprooting and moving plants.
Such horticulture methods are more Dutch in their style(uproot and replant the nice tops) than Nature style which uses almost exclusively topping.


----------



## plantbrain

I hacked the Monte carlo back, but I think I'll just whack the suck to the bone and replant the tops.


----------



## plantbrain

Made some changes, like about 1 hour ago.
Water is still pretty cloudy after the rework.
Added some different wood slats to border the plant groups.
Added the red pantanal weed back, at least for now till I figure what else to do with it or find a new plant to take it's place.
The wood, I'm much happier with. the MC really got going and was over takign the front, so I sold most of it and replanted the new sprigs and it a month or so, I'll have a nice lawn again.
Repositioned Erios.
You can see the difference in the Downoi from a couple of weeks ago, lots of new growth.
Removed the Ech. agustafolia variety vesuvius.
Tank is pretty close to where I'd like it to be once a few of the groups grow back in, UG, MC, some of the back ground plants. I might add some more Mini pellia on wood here and there.
I can alwlays swap the mini reineckii for the R macrandra also.
The new pink ovalis Ludwigia is a nicer plant than the old Ludwigia red. It grows slower and denser than the red type. Not really pink however.
I may add the pennywort in the Right front corner or a mini Riccia or something.


----------



## plantbrain

Oh yea, I forgot to mention this:

Scaping, this is reverse from nature style actually.

I chose the plants.............. then added and changed the hard scape to suit the plant species I wanted.
Most tanks and nature style does the hardscape 1st, then chooses the plant species afterwards to accent the hardscape. 
They might chose a foreground type plant, but the species is often not always known.

If you chose the plant species 1st, then I think this would be closer to the dutch style and approach., which is to highlight the plant species that interest you.
To a lesser degree, the hardscape. It's a different emphasis and approach.

However, the wood and positioning is far far from a simplistic thing. You can go very simple in either case, or go to the really sophisticated.  
Still takes a lot of work and thought to make it look good in both areas. One is not superior to the other, they just have different areas/goals/emphasis. 
It's also a long term garden for me, many of the REAL Japanese landscape gardens are old, very very old..............they are not these short lived tanks many scapers often do for 6-18 month time frames.
If you cannot maintain the garden indefinitely.................without breaking the tank down, then you are not really focused on Japanese gardening. There is a very strong emphasis on long term care. Imagine if these tanks were bonsai trees? 
These gardens also require a lot of manual care, no whining about water changes and cleaning the tank/filters on a very regular basis. You put in a lot, but....you get a lot out, regardless of the style.


----------



## Spartacus

Hi Tom,

many thanks for sharing this journal with us - Have read all the pages and its very inspirational.

Many thanks for your time!

Best wishes,

Murray


----------



## plantbrain

I have a few more tweaks with the wood to go.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## foxfish

What are the PH readings Tom?


----------



## plantbrain

About 5.9 and then 7.1 at night.


----------



## foxfish

Wow, quite a lot then... I am thinking - lots of gas but the trickle filter helps keep oxygen levels up?


----------



## plantbrain

The wet/dry sump maintains, consistently among 6 reps'(not just one single tank), 1-2 ppm's higher O2. Consider the average 100% at the temps I have are roughly 7 to maybe 7.6 ppm.
The canister filters never once hit those 100% maxima except during the latter parts of the day.

1 to 2 ppm higher is HUGE when you are only at 7 ppm.
That's 14 to 15% to over 28% higher O2.

Note, this difference is independent of time of day, it's stable and even no matter what time the reading was taken vs the same exact time using the canister.
There are few reasons for this: lower BOD, surface skimming reduces the film layer, thereby increasing Fick's 1st law of diffusion, likely by a large margin, stable rates of degassing and less CO2 build up.
If you have a "sealed cap" on the water's surface and you add even just a little bit more CO2, this can build up and not diffusion much out. If you did this with a wet/dry skimmed system, the CO2 can diffuse out better, thus reduce the chance of a build up to the point of toxic levels for livestock.

You will waste more gas, but you get more O2 and a healthier tank, better plant growth, higher ppm of CO2 that are more stable. 

Say the surface film changes, and it gets thicker for some reason: maybe the temp increases or the plants did poorly for a week etc,and you get more scum.
Does this change the degassing and increases the build up in the water of CO2?
Yes.

Now you can go the other way, degas too much and never be able to add enough CO2.
Like Goldilocks, too much, just right and too little. 

So you need to know which one you want and how/what will get you there.
Or you can simply add a few tiny tetras and take the photo shoot and not worry about the fish.

I rarely see the top 20 ADA scapes more than once and with the same fish. I rarely see much fish at all. Now I love plants, but I weigh fish keeping on equal terms.


----------



## plantbrain

Did a little trim and rearrangement for the red panantal, I might switch it with some other plant's location to get better color dynamics across the view.
Will add the Hydrocotyle later this week in the corner, I'd wanted some mini riccia and I have some, but it's more trouble and the pennywort does the job easily.
I'd add the White Anubius but it sort of gets lost and is such a $$$ plant, I am growing it out emergent.


----------



## flygja

Once you get riccia in a tank, you'll never get it out completely. I've had it re-emerging after a rescape even. I'd still like to try and all-riccia scape one day though. At least it can't infect other plants when there ain't any other plants. 

Great tank as always. But I do wonder when you'll stop tinkering with it and let the stems get all bushy dutch style


----------



## plantbrain

Due to the shallow depth, the tank rarely is allowed to get too overgrown or bushy.

I wish the tank was maybe 22" tall, even 24"(60cm) tall really.

Then I could make the wall effects with the rows.

I have new tanks coming for when we move, so there might be a few like that on the table.

I get much taller than this tank, I'll have to go to 3/4" glass, roughly 19mm.

13 mm now.


----------



## plantbrain

You can see the Monte Carlo regrowing well. Mowed the Red Pantanal, need to mow the Red macrandra. Likely need to replant the Downoi and pack it in good.
There's a few Botia out roaming around.


----------



## plantbrain

I did a fair amount of trimming.
The Red mac looks nice after a good trim though.
Note the MC growing in pretty fast.
I hacked the mini butterfly in the back section, I may pull that plant into a row spot at some point.


----------



## foxfish

Tom can you post a vid of the tank in action so we can get an idea of flow?


----------



## plantbrain

foxfish said:


> Tom can you post a vid of the tank in action so we can get an idea of flow?


 

Be awhile, and a phone video ain't cutting it.


----------



## plantbrain

I am making a post pruning filter for this and some other tanks, basically a rigid hang on pair of U shaped hooks with a big old powerhead, then a 45cm x 10 cm filter cartridge with a carbon and 5 micron cheap disposable.
This should help after a few hours remove the fines from ADA AS.


----------



## plantbrain

A few more trims and another 2 weeks or so, it'll be looking decent. the MC will grow in pretty nicely by then, but not piled too much on itself.
I figured out a few ways to beat the UG back without having to trim it.
Red pantanal(likely 2 more times or more in the next 2 weeks) and the Tonina need trimmed. Red mac also next week sometime. 
Background plants are starting to bounce back nicely after the last trim.
Top view:










This is a pic right before the dimmer controller turns off the lights, you can see the Botia swimming. 
I really like that function on the ATI lights.







Couch view. Note the difference in the downoi's growth if you scroll back three weeks ago.


----------



## viktorlantos

Tom, are you shooting with all the tubes on 100%? As I see the unit is 30-40cm above the water?
Still a lot of power if you use all the tubes with ATI.

If yo do so, do you dose more ferts to this tank? In your post above seems like CO2 is up to the light. Wondering if you choosen the super high light more CO2 more ferts route to produce plants trimming cycle quicker.


----------



## plantbrain

viktorlantos said:


> Tom, are you shooting with all the tubes on 100%? As I see the unit is 30-40cm above the water?
> Still a lot of power if you use all the tubes with ATI.
> 
> If yo do so, do you dose more ferts to this tank? In your post above seems like CO2 is up to the light. Wondering if you choosen the super high light more CO2 more ferts route to produce plants trimming cycle quicker.


 


No, this is at the evening when the plants are pearling like mad, note, there is a lot of current in the tank.
At 100%, the lights wash out all the colors and the various bulbs on this tank can make some colors look weird, but mostly due to the pearling, 30 inches front back depth, but the light is only 18" wide, you get an intense amount of reflection from the pearling. 
Add some trimming and mucking around in the sediment, well...........pics look hazy. In person, no one says this.

14-16", same as ADA with their Metal Halides pretty much for height above the tank. Some tanks might go to 30cm, others might be 45-50cm. Depends.

This tank is fairly standard EI with more PO4/traces. The high light is less for the rates of growth. I like to have a range of light and growth rates. This tank is the weedy high speed tank. I have a mid and then a low level tank and then a reef I'm starting again.
So one of each type. The plants are also a mix of fast and slower growers, or at least shorter growing plants. I plan on redoing the tank and taking all the plants out and redoing the hardscape well, but the same general idea. It'll take me a day or two, so the plants will be fine, but I'll let the tank fill out in this form for another 2-3 weeks, then maybe take a decent pic or video or both.

I dose 30ppm a week NO3, but I do this for most tanks, then about 10 ppm of PO4, then 2-3 ppm of Fe as CMS+DTPA Fe mix. K+ is likely in the 40+ PPM ranges.
Tap water is nice here: KH is about 20 ppm, GH is about 35 ppm. I add 1-2 degrees of GH with GH booster.
I dose this same amount to my 180 Gallon which uses about 30% less light and is another 6 inches deeper, so the light is about 50% less in that tank overall.
My Buce tank has only 1/3 of this, but that's pretty bright for a Buce tank, but no issues so far, a lot of shrimp and algae eaters, good consistent care is the key. 
I flush the sump and sponge out once every 304 months.
CO2 is around 45-50 ppm.

I'll run a 5 micron water filter and large powerhead combo to polish the water coming up.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## Edvet

What do you use to polish the water? I used to have a Vortex diatom filter but i broke it and it's hard to find those in europe.


----------



## plantbrain

Edvet said:


> What do you use to polish the water? I used to have a Vortex diatom filter but i broke it and it's hard to find those in europe.


 

Use a water filter canister, say a 10cm x 50cm size water cartridge(5 micron carbon block etc or 5 to maybe 50 micron sediment) and just soem PVC pipe and attach a large powerhead to push the water through.


----------



## saz13

Beautiful arrangement and colours!


----------



## Edvet

If it's no ta huge trouble could you show a picture of such a setup?


----------



## flygja

plantbrain said:


> I dose 30ppm a week NO3, but I do this for most tanks, then about 10 ppm of PO4, then 2-3 ppm of Fe as CMS+DTPA Fe mix. K+ is likely in the 40+ PPM ranges.


 
That's quite a lot of PO4. I'll probably try it out for a few weeks and see if it helps. No issues with fish at 50ppm CO2?


----------



## plantbrain

Edvet said:


> If it's no ta huge trouble could you show a picture of such a setup?


 

I will in a day or two, need to put it together now I have all the parts finally.


----------



## plantbrain

flygja said:


> That's quite a lot of PO4. I'll probably try it out for a few weeks and see if it helps. No issues with fish at 50ppm CO2?


 

I keep double trunk elephant nose, they are hyper CO2 sensitive. So they are fine, same with my 180, it's sitting about 65-70ppm CO2.
Realize I have good flow and wet/dry filters and higher O2 than anyone with a canister filter.

This gives me more buffered room for CO2 dosing. I also am patinet, so I adjust very slowly and watch the tanks before adjusting further.

Adding to that, I use the best CO2 regulator set ups possible, these make ADA stuff look like cheap plastic crap.


----------



## bridgey_c

Hi Tom, 

have you experimented with diffusing Co2 at a lower rate but on for 24 hrs a day? I know you have lots of surface movement so your Co2 gasses off quickly, but is there no way that large fluctuations in Co2 are actually worse for inverts and your elephant nose than them acclimatising to more steady levels? I am complete novice in fish biology so I sort of know im wrong but it seems to make more sense to me. Or does the longer time at lower levels of Co2 more than make up for the daylight hours when they are hurting a bit?

The reason I ask is that I diffuse Co2 in the normal, 2 hours before lights on, routine. If I get near 40ppm my shrimp decide to lay on their backs and try and tan their bellies. I am getting a bit of a softy in my old age and feel pretty guilty so I refrain from trying to get my co2 levels higher these days but I still get plagued by filamentous algae in the hairgrass.

fantastic thread too!


----------



## plantbrain

I see no good reason to ever add CO2 24/7. 
ADA and myself are in agreement about a number of things, this is one of them.
Amano says it is "taboo"(his words, not mine).

It does not help nor helps fish in anyway.

Poor delivery while the CO2 is being added it much more the issue or, too much degassing.
CO2 is not a salt and does not involve osmoregulation in fish like changing the pH with say baking soda(which is a salt).

Hair algae is a good sign of lots of light and not quite enough CO2.
If you added even less CO2, then BBA and other algae species would appear.


----------



## plantbrain

I am okay with the green plants, but I'll need to add more color like the Right side to balance things.
I might bring back the Ludwigia red, remove the Pink Ovalis.
I might try it in the rear and move the Rotala mini butter fly to the spot where the A reineckii mini is now. I like that plant, but it's just not as contrasting as the other species. 
It's nice also because it is a very easy plant to manage.
Need more color and contrast on the left side now.
I'll add the H, sibthorpides in the right corner again. That will balance the right side well.
The Red Ludwigia which has been in the middle red section for sometime will return. 
The A reneckii mini is the only one I'm really wondering about.


----------



## plantbrain

So it's coming, I'll redo the hardscape in the next couple of months on this tank and do something a bit more appropriate for the scale and shape of this tank. It's just too shallow to do what I really would like.

So I can buy a new tank or redo it.

I'll move sometime in the next year or so anyway, so I'll buy a new 180 etc, but the 70 Gallon's I'll keep and I might get a 48x 30x 24" size for this system instead, 18" is just too short.


----------



## plantbrain

Removed the tennellus and the pink ovalis. Added the pennywort and the Red ludwigia from before. 

See where this goes now.


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## plantbrain

Colors match pretty good now, added the final plant groups.
I'll trim the Red Pantanal in a couple of days since it's so weedy anyway.


----------



## Edvet

Which hang-on filter it is that i see ?


----------



## plantbrain

Edvet said:


> Which hang-on filter it is that i see ?


 

It is a wet/dry prefilter, CPR.

I use wet/dry sumps on all my tanks, even the little tanks.


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## aliclarke86

Sorry to be completely naive but how does such a filter work? 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4


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## plantbrain

See wet/dry filter sumps how they work on Youtube fro many versions of the same topic. 


Wet/dry filters how they work - YouTube


----------



## aliclarke86

Cheers mate I did that as soon as I posted. Silly me

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4


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## plantbrain

I think most of us ask, then think, "hey, I google here.........." I'm no different.


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## plantbrain

You will note that one of the Erio's is yellowing from the base, started about 2 weeks ago, not sure why either. None of the others have done this either.
Not replanted, moved, flowering or anything else I can figure.
Right rear corner is coming along, but slower than hoped.
UG you can clearly see it's about ti life off, I'll add some ADA AS on top and semi bury the section.
This will prevent it for another 2-3 weeks. At some point, I'll need to pull it and replant some new plugs, then wait 8 weeks or so to get a nice looking thick rug. Monte Carlo looks decent now, took longer than the I thought.
Even with massive pruning, the R. macrandra has performed better than I expected. Note,: you can uproot and replant tops, or trim from the top and wait for new growth. I feel it's best to uproot and trim the tops and replant those, than simply trim the top and allow new growth to come back.
If you want a nice hedge like appearance, it's easier/better for most stem plants to trim like a hedge and top only, not uproot.
But some plants respond better/well to the two main types of pruning methods.
I'm not certain they are universal either, some hobbyist under some conditions might find it much better to use method versus another.
Or where you need to clean up the ratty lower stems and uproot for a couple of times, then once the nice healthy growth is there, then only top the plants.




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## Ady34

Looking really nice now Tom.
The last end shot could be a scape all on its own


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## plantbrain

Well, that's the challenge I like and enjoy, making the tank look good from each angle.

*Dutch style is the FTS* *only. Contest shots, FTS only.*

But aquariums are not FTS only, we can enjoy them from many angles and we are not static 2 dimensional people. 
I find the rational for FTS views *only* to be poor and lacking supportable logic. 
Enjoying as many views as possible would be something more interesting to the viewer. 
Amano seems to share this aesthetic and I know why based on Japanese gardening. 
It's to place such elements at the human scale in your living environment.
His tank at home can be viewed from every angle except from below.
Most tanks butt up against a wall, but this is not required.

I prefer one end up against the wall, typically the side.







But even if the view is specific to the FTS, such tanks can still look awesome from other angles if done well.


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## plantbrain

I'll likely redo/scape the tank in the next month or two.
Don't worry, it'll still have most of the same plants/colors etc.

I redid a few things and trimmed about 1-2 hours ago, so there's some haze, but used a different camera.


----------



## flygja

Forgive me for saying this, but I hope one day you'll be too busy to trim and let it grow into a gigantic bush of colour. I think it'll look really sweet!


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## plantbrain




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## Nathaniel Whiteside

*mouth wide open*

Stunning shots!


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## Edvet

Impressive shots!


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## GreenNeedle

First time I've seen this Tom and whilst the plants are very 'structurally' arranged I find it absolutely stunning. Ver visually appelaing to the eye and the range of colour 'banks' against each other provides superb contrast from one to the next and so on.

Lovely setup.


----------



## Stormy

you have the unique ability to bring out the best of any plants Tom!
your tank is like an encyclopedia, it shows us how the plants are supposed to look like!

those colors are insane!!!


----------



## plantbrain

SuperColey1 said:


> First time I've seen this Tom and whilst the plants are very 'structurally' arranged I find it absolutely stunning. Ver visually appelaing to the eye and the range of colour 'banks' against each other provides superb contrast from one to the next and so on.
> 
> Lovely setup.


 

View the video.


----------



## plantbrain

I will likely not trim anything etc in this tank for another 5-6 days. The tornado is going nuts as are most of the back ground plants, the red pant is doing very well ATM, not sure why.
Tends to grow a bit paler in the middle stages and then reddens as it tops the surface.
I could trim a few rows and make it so you can see the A. reineckii mini, trim the Tonina a bit, wait another 2 days, trim the red pant, trim some of the front Downoi, clean up some etc.
But.......I'll wait and let it over flow.
Some whiners have asked for it.
Tank shall be quite overgrown.
Added more CO2 and ferts to keep up with things.
NO3 drops fast, so I've already spotting BGA in the tops of the Tornado, which I only see if the NO3 drops too much.
A day or two later, the BGA is gone after dosing KNO3.
So I've gone from what I thought would be non limiting at 30 ppm of NO3 from KNO3, not to mention good heavy feeding of the fish, likely adds at least 10 ppm a week, to adding another 15 ppm NO3 dose. So about 50-60ppm a week. That's a lot, but.the CO2 is high, the light is very high also and the tank is packed with a lot of stem plants and is a very shallow wide tank.


----------



## Edvet

Can you share any tips on the Tonina as i can't seem to get it going very well?


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## plantbrain

Light pretty much, it's resistant to algae, CO2 variation(not CO2 demanding, likely due to low rate of growth relative to many stem plants).
Sediment does NOT matter, it has very wimpy root systems and you can see the whitish fine roots in the water column pretty well.
Grows somewhat well once transitioned to emergent culture and will branch well. Does decent branching in higher current regions and can be floated and grown that way also.
Good light all the way down helps and regular trims. I suspect it does not like hard water, high KH, maybe 5-8 etc might be the upper range for this one, but I could certainly be quite mistaken.
Likes Low pH/ ADa or rich sediment= myth.
I can say that.

Erio setaceum type 3 is a far more difficult plant IME.
It's finally doing well again in another tank. Finicky plant.
I can grow it fine, but learning to scape with it over a long time frame(years) is quite another matter, I have the record thus far.


----------



## plantbrain

E. hydropiper is growing in after much replanting, the top sloped part is still getting uprooted by the elephant noses and shrimp. The soil is new and is lighter up in that section.



Blood vomits are doing well, and time to split a few already.

I need to find a better home of the S. uraupes and lago grade. 
I'll likely switch the UG with them and then move them back somewheres.
A few other minor changes I suppose.
E hydropiper is a PITA to get a larger decent rug if you have fish.
I have ample Belem grass and Monte carlo as well as HC if need be.
It grows, but fish go after it. It roots deeper than HC etc also, so it's weird to me.
Speaking of which, I now have 100 Rasbora kubotai green neon.
Very nice fish, does not leap to it's death, but does not contrast well in this tank, so it might end up over in the 70 Gallon Buce tank. Nice fish though.
I drilled some more holes in the wood and will add some more Mini pellia in those spots.
The tops of the wood are coming along well with this liverwort.


----------



## Martin in Holland

always amazing to see how everything grows and looks healthy in your tank.... I want that toohoohoo


----------



## plantbrain

Added the nice Erio compressum I got from Aaron.
This was troubling because they are not easy to scape with.

I found a good location and had to redo a little bit of the design, but it's a nice fit and a nice dramatic plant.

Not easy to plant, extremely buoyant. 

I got mad at the Elatine hydropiper. Removed it and put a smaller patch on the far left corner instead. As I removed it, I noticed it had really grown in very well. 
Still, it did not grow at the same rate the other plants around it were.
I think very very high light and finer sediment would help. Smaller shallower tanks.

I added the UG back into that location. 
It's easy.

Added the S uruapes to the side section and the L senegalnesis also. Removed the Rotala green. Nice easy plant, but I wanted to keep certain species. Drilled holes into the wood in various spots to stuff more Mini pellia into.

Will get pics up later tonight.

And what the tank looks like after uprooting EH




I am trying to use more native USA wild collected by hobbyist plants.
R. sunset, Erio compressum, L. sphaerocarpa etc.


----------



## flygja

Who do I need to bribe/steal/rob to get these results?


----------



## plantbrain

This is what the tank looked like after uprooting the EH, Cuphea and UG


Nice eh?
So when I folks whine about why the water is a little hazy, well, frankly they HAVE NO IDEA.
A day later it looks like this:









The Erio compressum is a good fit in this location. It's among the most buoyant of any plant I've worked with. I'll trim some of the others and focus more on those for awhile. R macrandra needs a trim, R. sunset needs to grow in a bit more, I'll add more EH to the L corner, Erio setaceum type 3 needs to bounce back and do well. I'm not entirely happy with that. the R. mini butter fly has not done well since I redid the tank, but it's coming back now. L sphaerocarpa needs a trim but I'll wait awhile till it gets another 5-6 cm taller, then cut back more. So I'm getting there, slowly, but the muck in the water, vs the next day, that gives you an idea of what I do. I do not have a mechanical filter other than a 4 inch block of 20 ppi sponge. And I might only clean it once every 3-6 months. You are also looking into 75-120 cm distances with high light and a lot of pearling bubbles. Makes it pretty hard to get the clear shots.


----------



## George Farmer

The E. compressum works a treat. It brings a welcome contrast in texture.


----------



## plantbrain

Yep George, it's a big old nice plant no one has really scaped with. Seen a few farm tanks with it, no scapes. A local club goes out hunting for various local native plants to try out.
So I get to try out some nice new plants, but also to highlight and promote them to the rest of the hobby. A plant does not sell or look well in a boring ratty farm tank.
I wanted to add some E. agustifolia var. vesuvius or a small red sword, but this did one better, since it's a native new plant and an Erio to boot, as well as being rare.

Adds a more Dutch style to the layout and makes it look better. A lot of finer leaved plants, so....

I just whacked the Ludwigia red back to make the room. Worked out better than I'd thought I'd end up with without too much work and change.
The Ealtine hydropiper was the bigger headache and then replanting the UG. Erio was an easy planting, but it's super light and will float/uproot easily.
That's it's worse trait. It's like Erio parkeri which is among the easiest Erio to grow, also a native, but it's almost too common here these days. I'd thought of doign an entire foreground of Erio parkeri in my 180 or downoi to replace the Starougyne.


----------



## aliclarke86

Hi tom is the plant at the front centre erio trithuria sp.?

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

aliclarke86 said:


> Hi tom is the plant at the front centre erio trithuria sp.?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


 

Yes, Trithuria species, it's not an erio, from Australia. 
Erio Compressum is from the USA as is E parkeri.


----------



## Gilles

Hey Tom, besides the 20ppi block of 10cm what else is your filtration about? That result in just one day looks awsome!


----------



## plantbrain

Gilles, nothing else mate.
Just the foam block.

I use to run an Ocean clear 25 st ft 20 micron cartridge but it clogged too much and affected the CO2 and flow rates.
PITA to clean and replace. Bag filters are about the only thing I might use in the future.


----------



## tim

This is stunning Tom, the textures and colours are superb, tried my hand at e. Hydropier and just couldn't get it going do you think softer water or a particular substrate is helpful with this one ? Btw blood vomits just sounds like a plant I want


----------



## parotet

Tom, I saw somewhere in this forum a picture of a DIY glass filter I think you use. It was inside a white cabinet... Can't find the picture and I would like to learn a little bit about it. I'm sure there is a thread somewhere explaining how it works. Looked very simple and effective!


----------



## parotet

Found it, it is a picture of a sump and the co2 cylinder inside a white cabinet. Do you use it in planted tanks usually? Is there any advantage or are you using it just because you already had it?


----------



## plantbrain

tim said:


> This is stunning Tom, the textures and colours are superb, tried my hand at e. Hydropier and just couldn't get it going do you think softer water or a particular substrate is helpful with this one ? Btw blood vomits just sounds like a plant I want


 

EH is a bugger. Finer sediment, I suppose ADa powder type would be best, no fish and maybe only smaller shrimp, Amano's will pull some up.
It likes current. Hard to get it to pile on top of its self and get really dense looking from above, but if you go and uproot it, it's much dense than outward appearances would suggest. 

Not sure about high vs low KH's. 
GH does not matter as long as there is some.
Mostly just getting it rooted and then established, not critters pulling it up etc.

Blood vomits are great smaller(smaller than I thought they'd be) Erio like plant, but I like them more. Small, easy, hard to scape with though.


Ludwigia sphaerocarpa is looking good right now.







I have some issues here, I'd like to move the Syngonanthus urapues over to the left, but it's too dark for it under the branch. I could try and pack more soil back in there and that would raise the level up more, but that will be tough over time.
I could call the Fissidens branch a green row and then move the Cuphea back one spot and add Rotala sunset in the more forward section where the Cuphea is now. Both the Syngonanthus and the Rotala need open areas and good current and CO2 to do well.


----------



## Jason King

Beautiful tank tom the colours are amazing


----------



## plantbrain

The Erio compressum is an awesome plant, it's got a few nice new side shoots already, so it's really liking the tank. 
E hydropiper also likes the new spot, none of the sprigs are floating up any longer.

I am going to switch around the lights this week and next. I'm sure I can get better color development by changing a few things.


----------



## plantbrain

I added more soil for the Syg. on the left side there. I have 3 types there, but it's hard to tell the differences between them, but it's there.  
The Erio compressum have divided into 3-4 plants already. I'll nto divide them for sometime however, I want them to get to their full glory since this is the 1st scape where they have ever been used I'm aware of.
I might move the Blood vomits over to the right side also and add the Mic monte carlo in that spot or maybe Belem grass. 

Trimmed 380$ worth of plants out of the tank the last 2 weeks. Not bad. and the scape has not filled in entirely yet.
Keeps me motivated to maintain the tank at least. 
E hydropiper has rooted better this time and is getting thicker. I've never had it really pile on it's self and would like to see if I can have that happen this time around.


----------



## plantbrain

Switched the lighting bulbs around to what my 180 gallon has.
1 Giesemann Aquaflora, then a 2 Red wave Wavepoint, then a 3 Sunwave Wavepoint, then a 4 Red Wave Wavepoint, then an 5 URI Red Sun, then a 6 Sunwave Wavepoint, then 7 Wavepoint Red Wave and lastly a 8 Giesemann aquaflora.
There's 4 pretty red colored bulbs, then the Aquafloras which are slightly pinkish but look white compared to the Red Waves and the Red Sun.
Then the blueish 12000K Sunwaves add a bit of blue to offset it, but not as intense as the ATI blue specials.

I had more blue and white in the prior bulb set.
So this should produce a better red coloration.
I did a quick check, but a full day of viewing is needed to assess.


----------



## Ian Holdich

Just remember Tom, you won't grow any plants without a 6500k bulb ; )


The tanks looking awesome mate, I wish you lived closer, so you could lend me some of those plants!


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## aliclarke86

Now now Ian its that kind of sarcasm that gives us newbies the wrong idea. It wasn't until I was far too tight to spend £15 on one tube and grew all my plants under £3 silvania 3000k tubes that I truly believed that. 

Tom that is some major lighting you have going on there. Is this purely in favour of getting a darker red or more for a nicer viewing colour?

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

aliclarke86 said:


> Now now Ian its that kind of sarcasm that gives us newbies the wrong idea. It wasn't until I was far too tight to spend £15 on one tube and grew all my plants under £3 silvania 3000k tubes that I truly believed that.
> 
> Tom that is some major lighting you have going on there. Is this purely in favour of getting a darker red or more for a nicer viewing colour?
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


 

There's a few things happening:

1. Reflective color- Obviously, a red bulb will give off and reflect more red light colour than say blue or a white.
2. Intensity. I can vary this over a rather infinite range as far as hobbyists might even encounter. I use high light to grow the Farm faster. That's about it, not for color so much.
3. The bulb config certainly seems to be doing something. Can I prove it? No, can I show a lot of correlation? Yes, can I find any other real differences otherwise? No, and I've tried a few things. 
My 180 has 2 of the same ATI fixtires, so I can add different bulbs to one side vs the other, get the PAr identical, add the same red plants to each side, then see what the colours look like after say 4-8 weeks against a white background out of the water in sunlight at noon.
This would show it's the lighting alone, so light test can be done.

A fairly simple test actually most hobbyists could do.

*There's an edit in the above bulb list:*
2 of the bulbs should be the Zoomed flora's

1 Giesemann Aquaflora, then a 2 Zoomed Flora, then a 3 Sunwave Wavepoint, then a 4 Red Wave Wavepoint, then an 5 URI Red Sun, then a 6 Sunwave Wavepoint, then 7 Zoomed Flora and lastly a 8 Giesemann aquaflora.

This seesm to do very well.
I suppose if you cannot get the Red or Sun Wave/Wavepoint brands, sub another Zoomed Flora(similar to the Red) and the ultra Sun(similar to the Sunwave).
The Zoomed bulbs are German made and quite cheap in price.


----------



## plantbrain

New lighting:
PAR is virtually identical, but the red shift is a fair amount more. 
Might be from a few newer bulb additions.
Seems I'd tried this but did not like it in the past, but today, I seem to like it for some reason, so it shall stay.


----------



## Alastair

plantbrain said:


> New lighting:
> PAR is virtually identical, but the red shift is a fair amount more.
> Might be from a few newer bulb additions.
> Seems I'd tried this but did not like it in the past, but today, I seem to like it for some reason, so it shall stay.


Looks gorgeous tom.


----------



## MARKCOUSINS

Just fantastic!Does it get any better than this!


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## aliclarke86

There seems to be a lot more blue & red in this setup than the previous making for a less intense viewing I'm sure.

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

I tried the Coralife colormax bulbs, but they give a weird coloration, so I nixed them, they also reduced the PAR a considerable amount(about 20-25 umol less for 2-3 bulbs addition).
The mix of the 1 Red Wave, 2 Flora Sun Zoomed, Giesemann aquafloras on the ends, then the Red Sun with the 2 Sunpower (12000K's) (you could use the Zoomed Ultrasun) really give a nice mix. 

I've done more bulb configurations than about anyone for T5's, but..........I've also spent over 1000$ in bulbs alone, but that counts the 60,90 and 120 cm lengths also.


----------



## plantbrain




----------



## plantbrain

A little earlier in the day:

Well hacked back:


----------



## martinmjr62

Just one thing to say about this-	Stunning  

Cheers
Martin


----------



## plantbrain

Hacked some today.
Main issues overall:
1. Erio setaceum type 3 is doing well and is starting to regrow the tops and they are doing nicely. I had my doubts for a few weeks there.
But it'll come back and full recovery and hopefully be as nice as I have about 1 year or two ago or so:
Center:

*This is what the tank looked like maybe 1-2 years ago, the next set of pics are yesterday's. *



2. Other issue is the slow filling in of the EH on the Left corner. Perhaps finer ADA powder might help. It takes a while for it to really fill in compared to HC, Gloss, UG, etc. Which is good because then you do not need to trim it much.
But I'll need to be patient. At least it's staying much better rooted in this location than where the UG is now.

3. Sygonanthus on the left will fill in in due time. Not too worried about that. Thinking about changing the group shapes on that side some to better match the wood and growth patterns of the plant species.

4. Blood vomits. They just feel out of place in this scape. They have tripled in number and size. Nice little plant, but I have few sections where they can go effectively unfortunately.
If I get the real S uaupes, then they would be a natural or a mix of Monte Carlo in that sections, something bright green and low growing. Blood vomit will just not contrast well in this space.

5. Right corner has P stellata narrow right now, I wanted a yellow type of plant, but I might just fatten up the Erio type 3 as they grow out more.





Top view of the left Stump all "Mini Pelliaed"


Close up of the Elatine hydropiper. It has not uprooted much here even with all the critters poking around on it. The sediment is finer here and the water comes straight down on top of it.
Seems to do well even though there's less light in the corner. So maybe light is less a factor than I thought it was.


This is about where I had it before a year or two ago:

Top view:


----------



## plantbrain

Also, with the new bulb configuration, I say the following with pretty good confidence:

Positive color changes in the red direction:
The R wallichii and the L senegalensis really have popped out much nicer than anytime in the past.
Very rich nice color.
L sphareocarpa- significant red color change shift.
A reneckii mini, a little better, no change, Same for R macrandra, and Cuphea, deeper red, less mauve like colors

Plants not effected at all I can tell: Ludwgia "red", Rotala mini butterfly, H araguaia.


----------



## plantbrain




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## Simon jones

Does anyone know where in the UK stocks Red Wave?


----------



## plantbrain

Wavepoint Red wave should be a common bulb.

URI is the tough one to get, try the reef forums and see and then see which reef vendors have the brand.

Giesemann aquaflora, Zoomed flora and Zoomed Ultra should be common enough I would think in the UK.


----------



## TOO

Love the way the Riccardia grows in #581, sort of circular. Looks almost like a kind of coral or some sea plant. How long has it taken to achieve this?

Thomas


----------



## plantbrain

TOO said:


> Love the way the Riccardia grows in #581, sort of circular. Looks almost like a kind of coral or some sea plant. How long has it taken to achieve this?
> 
> Thomas


 

It's been here maybe 3 months, it's a slower grower, but the biomass totals can creep up on you and you end up realizing you have a butt load of it suddenly. Good news, it sells really well here in the USA.
I've tried tying it to wood, not a good method. I also assumed it liked moderate to low light, but it's clear it does well over a wide range of lighting.

I just stuff it into cracks and wedge it in holes etc. It grows out just like this later and gets nicer and nicer.... much easier than Riccia to deal with. Does not have the same pretty pearls or bright green color, but there are many similar plants. Riccia is a PITA.


----------



## TOO

I have a couple of Riccardia stones, seems it has grown onto them quite nicely, used some Riccia line initially, but the growth pattern is different from what I see in your pictures.



plantbrain said:


> Riccia is a PITA.


 
A stormy love affair at first...and then eviction (see Alpine Gardens).

Thomas


----------



## plantbrain

Lava rocks seem okay for the Riccardia from what I've seen, anything with texture it can cling and work it's way into. 
The 70 Gallon buce tank has larger mounds, it grows different in this 120 Gallon tank, 3x more light.


----------



## macek.g

Hi Tom,which lamp can  replace  URI Sun ? at the moment i have :
Aquaflora
Wav. Red wave
Sun  wave
Red wave
Arcadia Fresh Water
Aquamedic plant grow

maybe Arcadia original tropical pro?


----------



## macek.g

macek.g said:


> Hi Tom,which lamp can replace URI Sun ? at the moment i have :
> Aquaflora Giesemann
> Wav. Red wave
> Sun wave
> Red wave
> Arcadia Fresh Water
> Aquamedic plant grow
> 
> maybe Arcadia original tropical pro?


----------



## plantbrain

Tank continues to thrive. I hacked a lot of the groups back yesterday. Mowed others back down. I removed the P stellata narrow in the right corner and then expanded the Erio type 3 out since it is doing well in that position.
The section is still weak for now, but in 2-3 months, it'll be real nice. The Syngonanthus canuck and the maderia are doing very well, one is albino white and is still growing well, might be a mutation, but more likely just got a chlorine or the water was too hot during a water change since the in/out was on top of the plant, only 3 or the 15-20 stems were effected though and the others corrected themselves. I'll find out in a month or two, but doubtful it's a real mutation, but you never know. Elatine hydropiper is doing well, thickening up and piling on itself. I added some more along the side of the tank to see how it'll fair. Some of the older Erio compressum leaves are getting a bit of green spot algae. I'll need to trim those off sometime, plenty of nice new growth that's well out pacing any algae. I must have 12 side shoots at least now. Also got a touch of BBA for about 2 weeks, but, the gas was out for a couple of days, just kept up on everything and it's stopped about 2 weeks ago. Not on the plants, but the wood had tiny bits forming. Why? Not sure, maybe from adding the fish, maybe the CO2, maybe slacking on water changes, hard to say. Certainly manageable, but I know it need not be there at all. All new growth of BBA stopped about 2-3 weeks ago and it's slowly going away. I changed the current which increased the CO2, reduced the degassing Fish seemed a bit more sluggish, but still fine. So that might be it also, or a combo of the CO2/current ripple adjustment, more water changes, staying on the CO2 tank switch if it runs out, adding new livestock etc. 
Also, there's been a huge rise in RCS population the last 2 months, they are everywhere like flies.



Filter side view


A reineckii mini. I have pruned off any raggy looking leaves, and the nice new side shoots, fill in nicely. This is the best way to prune this plant it seems. You can uproot and then replant the side shoots, but there's a little bit of delay as the plant establishes the root system, but that method is good if you need more or a larger area for planting. I just top of the taller stems from here and remove some older side leaves now.
Blood vomit, sort of like Belem hair grass almost if you allow it to fill in and grow thick. I'd hoped for something different look wise, but they sell well, I've had trouble finding an optimal location in this design for them also, they really need a long row, not what I have now.

UG continues to do even better in this version of the 120 Gallon redone. If I were to focus more on nature style, I'd use this plant mostly along with Mini pellia/Ricciacardia, mini Myrio, maybe the Rotala mini butterfly.


----------



## plantbrain

macek.g said:


> Hi Tom,which lamp can replace URI Sun ? at the moment i have :
> Aquaflora
> Wav. Red wave
> Sun wave
> Red wave
> Arcadia Fresh Water
> Aquamedic plant grow
> 
> maybe Arcadia original tropical pro?


 


Not sure, none of those do the super feaky red that the URI does.
Might try Horticulture weed smoking hydroponic places or the UK Reef forum folks to see if they can source the URI's.


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## Bryson375

That's a nice tank!!! Love the colour contrasts.
I'm after getting a set-up around that size. What sort of price would I be looking at for the tank alone?


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## plantbrain

Tank was 1100$



The tank today:


I redid the Trithuria, blood vomit section and will treat it like hair grass basically, it's like a red based Belem hair grass etc. 
I think it now looks much better against the wood vs lost next to other plants.
Also added more Mini Pellia and decided to add more of that throughout the scape. 
Hottonia will have a small rown hanging over the Trithuria and be pressed outward b the A. reineckii mini. 
This will offer some needed contrast in this central area. I wanted to use the Limnophila guinea wavy, but I might use it elsewhere at some point later.
For now, the Limnophila has no home in this tank.
Erio Type 3 is doing better and better, but it's hard to tell from the pics.
It's growing as it should. Making a nice larger group of this plant is not easy
But at this point, it's just patience. 
Same for the other plants.








Some labeling of the Sygonanthus varieties I have here, all of which are the same species, but other varieties.


Some detail on how I use a drill and add Riccardia and do not use cotton string. the mesh like form of the plant acts like a spring to hold the plant in place, then it grows out nicely from there.

Here's some algae from about 6 weeks ago when the CO2 ran out. BBA popped up and it was very minor. Some leaves got a tinge, they were trimmed off, the wood got a few tiny bits, and most were removed. 


The Trithuria species against the wood. This will fill in be 2-3 months from now pretty thick. I'm good with this position for the plant and was never happy prior. 
So it'll stay here for awhile I suspect.


----------



## MARKCOUSINS

Just admiration for the way you are able to grow some demanding plants,simply magical!
Tom i remember some time ago reading about you writing about Staurogyne repens and regularly trimming and selling the cuttings(hope I'm not wrong).Could you advise on at which height to trim this plant to encourage lateral growth and keep it looking healthy,as i sometimes get unhealthy looking lower leaves when it grows over aprox 5cm in height.Cheers Mark.


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## plantbrain

then you do this:



week later


2 weeks later:




3 weeks later



Another iteration:







and another:


----------



## MARKCOUSINS

Thanks very much for taking the time to put up those photos Tom!So i think the moral of the story is don't be scared to hack it back big time Cheers Mark.


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## plantbrain

Plants need trimmed to look their best, same with Bonsai.


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## plantbrain

Water is hazy from cleaning the sponge block filters once every 3 months or so. 
Cleared up a bit more than I thought it might after I 1st did it.
Top view:



You can see a nice crown of the Erio type 3 here.


You can see smaller runty rattier ones, but they are getting better and will form a nice top crown and keep doing this for now on. 
Maybe another 2 months or so, the section will be nice and full of nice large crows, roughly 4" across. In the deep corn there, the Limnophila wavy guinea I stuffed in the back, but it should do fine back there and is a bit different from the Erio. I might mix a red plant to break the green green color scheme between them, but it's not needed since you cannot see it that easily. So that brings up a question, why have it if you cannot see it much? Sort of a bank of plants in case I decide to change or move something else without ripping up too much stuff.





UG is very dense now:

ET is getting a nice rug: you can see bubbles under the sediment near the roots, any ideas on what those gas bubbles are? How does very active healthy plant growth affect their formation? What if you suddenly slowed the rates of plant growth way down?

King of the Erio's:

Ricciardia on the stump with cherry shrimp infesting it. 


Couch view.


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## Ady34

Looking great Tom.
Show us a side by side image of that and your reef for a colour off...... You dont see too many planted tanks with that sort of vibrancy, it almost glows! The optiwhite is like a neon surround.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## Puntius

Nice man looking better then ever.

Well done


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## plantbrain

I did a large hack yesterday and sold most of the cuttings. 500$ a month or there abouts from this tank. Much better than winning any ADA contest.


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## MiguelAngelo

Love how the wood looks like this intricate root system twisting around the scape. 

Sent from my RM-892_eu_euro1_227 using Tapatalk


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## Alexander Belchenko

plantbrain said:


> I did a large hack yesterday and sold most of the cuttings. 500$ a month or there abouts from this tank. Much better than winning any ADA contest.


 
 lol


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## Jason King

500 thats crazy.. basically the tank paid for itself over time 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## LondonDragon

kisanjong said:


> 500 thats crazy.. basically the tank paid for itself over time


 
And the mortgage lol


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## Jason King

Lol thats true 

Sent from my SM-T210 using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

kisanjong said:


> 500 thats crazy.. basically the tank paid for itself over time
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


 

That's a normal typical month.
The Trithuria, downoi, Tonina or A reineckii each......... can fetch 100-200$ each per good sized replant/trim. 
But I only trim those once every 1-2 months.

The problem, it took me 20 years in the plant hobby, 35+ in the aquarium hobby to figure out how to do it


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## plantbrain

LondonDragon said:


> And the mortgage lol


 

Not in California.


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## plantbrain

I have about 50 of the Trithuria blood vomits, they are growing back well after the last uprooting and dividing about 3 weeks ago?
Tank is post trim so the L senegal is whacked way back as are the Rotala mini butterfly, Myrio mini and the R wallichii.
No KNO3 for 6 days last week, the E hydropiper yellowed some, the A reineckii mini had a few holes. Other plants seemed fine though. Low N is not wise.
RCS continue to grow/breed like no tomorrow, the cockeroaches of the tanks.
I redid the A reineckii and the Downoi also.
The Erio type 3 is in the rear right corner, it's really blooming up nicely like it should. It is the canary in the coal mine, a bellweather plant for me. If it does well, then everything else will also. It'll be another 2 months or so I'd say before I can trim and redo the section up to nice standards, but.........that's the way this stuff goes.
The side view shows the S. maderia and the lago grande and the dwarf canuck(you can see the differences between the madiera and the dwarf canuck pretty good now after some growth and recovery).
E hydropiper continues to expand and root well even with a little yellowing.
UG is really hyper dense. Even by my standards, the wood boxed it in. Probably should trim and replant it next week. 
The toughest plants for trimming and such:
Tonina, they are not topped. And there are a lot of them.
But they sell well and I have a back list of orders as they grow out. 
Not a hard plant to grow...........but a PITA to trim and propagate.
Easy weeds: R mini butter fly, L tornado, Mini milfoil, H araguaia, Blood vomits, downoi, Cuphea, mosses/liverworts.
Fastest growing: R wallichii, R macandra, L sphaerocarpa.


----------



## aliclarke86

Tom what rout do you take when propagating downoi, top it or take side shoots? 
Cheers

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

I uproot the section once every 2 months or so, then replant and sell the larger crowns, keep the smaller ones for the new planting.


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## plantbrain

Trying to think what to do in this bare spot, the shorter Syngonanthus did not feel right as as foreground type plant really. So I removed it and placed it in another tank. So this is all of the S madiera now. Cryptocoryne x willisii 'lucen might be good for that spot on the side.
H. sibthorpioides
Starougyne purple or porto velho would work good also.
The EH is simply too short to add cover and transition. I could add more Riccardia on wood in this spot, or another plant species like, a Crypt, but that will be very similar to the Red Hygro araguaia. 
A different shade of green perhaps might work. Hydrocotyle sibthorpides might be good. I want something darker though.
I'm not entirely happy with the Hottonia, but for now..........I'll likely redo that section with something else. Might add Monte Carlo there.




Some before and after trim pictures:


After:


----------



## plantbrain

A couple of weeks later after stuffing the holes I drilled:



Limnophila wavy guinea and Erio type 3 have come a long way:


Erio compressum has many many new side shoot plants.


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## Alastair

Tom that's phenomenal that is. Layout colour everything. Are you sure you dont paint your plants ha ha. 

What is the plant on the emmersed wood shot. Is it a mini pelia????


----------



## roonmu

So so beautiful :X


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## plantbrain

It's time to uproot and divide those Erio compressums. 
alastair, yes, Mini Pellia, grows weird in this tank, it's hard, like a scrub brush fiber.


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## ivydree

Just WoW!

I'm mor a natural kind of guy, but this is just stunning... looks like a painting to my eyes!


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## plantbrain

Post trim, did a fair amount of Erio removal so it's still pretty cloudy:
Things will fill in pretty good this next cycle. 
The Erio setaceum type 3 in the rear right corner have come in nicely now. 
I had to most doubts about those. 

The Erio compressum will fill back in pretty nicely over the next 2-3 months. 

Elatine hydropiper will continue to spread and fill in some of the open area before the erios get too big.


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## Edvet

Looks super healthy and a great work of art. (just not my kind of art, but hey: de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum)


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## plantbrain

Post Erio compressum thinning, I removed 15 plants actually. 




Blood vomits have done well and are pretty easy actually.


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## aliclarke86

If I had not seen your post to AGA Facebook page I would still be thinking that E Compressum is a small plant... Its hard to get a sense of scale sometimes 

Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain




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## Martin in Holland

I do envy your plant growth ....come over to my place to give me a hand, please?


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## Luís Cardoso

wonderful, the reds and green are so luxorious...


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## plantbrain

Martin in China said:


> I do envy your plant growth ....come over to my place to give me a hand, please?



Sure, I'll show up with this:



I'll put an ADA label on it, using only the tears of unicorns for fuel.


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## GHNelson

Hi Tom
How long do you keep your lighting on?
hoggie


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## Martin in Holland

plantbrain said:


> Sure, I'll show up with this:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll put an ADA label on it, using only the tears of unicorns for fuel.



Whahaha....that would make pruning a lot faster for sure


----------



## plantbrain




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## Jason King

Looking great tom  the colors are amazing.


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## aliclarke86

Ummmmmm that wood is.............kinda hidden 

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## Alexander Belchenko

Wonderful colors and plants. Like a box of candies


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## Edvet

I like the view from the left side the best. Other views are to busy for my liking. Healthy and a testimony to skill, but to busy.


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## plantbrain

Well, I have not trimmed the other side much lately, so it's a bit over grown, whereas I had just mowed the left. 
There's 3-4 plant groups that need to fill in again somewhat.
 But in a couple of months, it should be primed.

I have a new idea and direction for the next incarnation.


----------



## Maurits

Needed some time to read from start to end.love what your doing. nothing to do with Dutch but that's for purists. Love the quality and health of your plants well done


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## plantbrain

Some influences are from Dutch, some personal and some Nature. Developing one's own style is as good as copying the best styles. Both skills are needed to learn and keep the different ideas going in the hobby.


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## foxfish

Looks better than ever to me!


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## Mr. Teapot

I love the joyful mix of influences. I think the aquascaping part of our hobby is pretty much dominated by the asian aesthetic ideals - so refreshing to see a more western idea of gardening being mixed in so skilfully. Nothing more lovely than a summer garden with deep beds of structured planting.


----------



## Tim Harrison

It's been one heck of a journey...maybe it's time to do a 'From this to this'...although there have been a fair few transitions in between so maybe it wouldn't quite do it justice...
More like From this to this…to this…to this…to this…


----------



## plantbrain

I'm not sure this is really a "Western" aesthetic or not. 
It is not traditional in either style, perhaps a long way from either style.

But my own ideas and visions are not based on that. Our local Bonsai club is heavily dominated by Japanese masters. But they like other styles too. 
If you can blend the intellectual, emotional and the intuitive then you are doing something right.
I have the nerdy thing with the various plant species.
Emotional impact
Intuitive usage. 

I'm following this path in other aquariums also.
Some are much more Nature style. I'll have one somewhat like this since I enjoy color/constrast and lots of species, but many other tanks, not so much. I just do not have the time or motivation to keep that many tanks like this. 
One is enough.


Water is cloudy because I obviously just moved a few things and trimmed a lot. The highlighted plant here is the green Erio setaceum, type 1. In the rear is a massive type 3. It has a darker green color and is about 3x as large. The S. maderia was not doing so well and the position was not far, just 2 rows over for the Erio's. They were in sad shape a couple of months ago, but now they are looking very nice. I've had better luck with Type 3, but this is about the 3-4th time I've found decent success with the Type 1 and am now able to scape effectively with it over the long term. It's somewhat slower growing and forms nice dichotomous branch tops. These are nice bright white green making for a nice contrast against the broad red leaves. The Front red plant is A. reineckii "mini" which is similar in growth rates as the Erio type 1. The Rotala macrandra is a weed, but it's pretty and does well on this troublesome location. So I do not care much about it, it'll grow no matter what abuse I throw at it. The next bright green plant is the Micrantherum(we are sure of this genus) umbrosum(?) monte carlo. I sent some to Tropica so it will be widely available commercially soon. You can also look at the piece of wood I put over in this right corner and drilled holes for the Riccardia, it's completely engulfed now. Took a bit of patience, but now it's doing what I want. To be able to scape with a nice plant effectively is a good feeling. It's not an easy one for most people.
The other picture gives you an idea of the hacking I do. I uprooted and then replanted the tops this time to most of the rear row, I topped but did not uproot the the Ludwigia senegalensis. Ludwigia sphaerocarpa gets a good hack every week pretty much, grows about 3-4" a week I'd say. The bottom portions, the stumps will send new side shoots if you plant them back or in another tank, or outside emergent. the Monte Carlo, I keep pushing back as it creeps into the other groups. Bladderwort is present and is the biggest PITA in taking care of this tank. I try hard to keep ahead of it. The ADA aqua soil clouds a lot, but the tank will clear in less than a day or so I would say.
I'm not sure what I'll do about the rear right corner yet, the type 3 Erio setaceum is a nice plant, so I might see which of those or the S madeira does well/better back there. If so, I'll pout the Erio type 3 in the 180 Gallon tank and make a nice stand over time over there. If not, then perhaps this or some other new plant that comes down the pipe.


----------



## NatureBoy

Well done on sharing this tank and your cultivation tips so gladly. It's kind of a "best of show" in the collectoritis category (Alan's tank comes a close second!). This tank appeals to anyone who loves seeing the variety of colours and forms that aquatic plants take and seeing them grow in luxury health. Do you reckon you could do it at a higher kH?


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## plantbrain

Not sure about the higher KH, some species, certainly, other's, not so sure. 3-4 degrees, very likely. More? No so sure.


----------



## NatureBoy

plantbrain said:


> Not sure about the higher KH, some species, certainly, other's, not so sure. 3-4 degrees, very likely. More? No so sure.


Hi Tom

What do you reckon it is about kH that seems to trip up some plants?

cheers


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## plantbrain

CO2 uptake mostly.[DOUBLEPOST=1397372032][/DOUBLEPOST]


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## petn

That's lovely tank indeed. What I dont get is the co2 uptake when higher kh?! Do certain plants struggle to use the co2 dissolved in the water because of higher kh?! Eh?! Thanks P

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


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## plantbrain

Seems to block CO2 uptake in some plant species, maybe 10-20 Rotala and Ludwigia species mostly. 
Adding more gas does not rectify the issue.


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## Richard Stansfield

What an absolute inspiration top marks Tom


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## plantbrain

10 days away and CO2 tank ran empty for 8 days before I got back to this:

[DOUBLEPOST=1399881173][/DOUBLEPOST]2 Days later: suck on them apples.


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## TOO

The rebellion has been crushed, but this shows that insurgency is always lurking in the shadows waiting for any weakness.

But it looks better than ever. Mt. Riccardia is great. If you substituted the dark gravel with sand I think it would create an amazing contrast.

Thomas


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## Edvet

Good recovery! Did you replant all stems?


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## flygja

Tom Barr's tank with algae? Now I've seen it all! Good work on the recovery Tom!


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## parotet

Which was the treatment Tom? Trimming, co2.... Anything else?

Jordi


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## plantbrain

Next day:

I did not replant all stems, maybe 50%. 2 good sized water changes. Not a shred of algae left. 
Good care etc, 95% of it. I did use one 1/2 dose of algaefix, but this is not much. Gets any leftovers I missed. 
Effective at killing Green hair algae, but not much else. It's also lethal to shrimp, but I only lost a maybe 5 to 10 out of 500+.
1/2 doses work better than full doses for that reason. 
Rest is just good care.


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## ADA

Must be nice having algae's kryptonite lol, nice one making short work of it


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## plantbrain

HC to replace the EH, and some wood, trimmed things up some today also.


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## Pedro Rosa

Amazing plants as always.
Great recovery!
... and some stems almost need trimming already


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## Martin in Holland

I always see all of your lights on. Is this just for the photo or are they really on all day (or how ever long your light period is)?


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## plantbrain

They ramp up and down based on %, not no# of bulbs for the dawn to dusk effects also.
100% for 6 hours with a 1 hour ramp up and 1 hour ramp down(0%-to 100% ramp up/down).


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## plantbrain




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## Martin in Holland

Cute kid...yours?


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## plantbrain

Yes, she's a poser.


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## Martin in Holland

wow, wow....and more wow (I mean the tank...don't want you to get the wrong idea)


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## Greenfinger2

Superb,


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## plantbrain

Well, get funky and watch a video then, gives a good idea of the plant and fish density.


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## tim

Funky indeed, fish look like they liked the soundtrack as much as I did


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## eduard

It looks fantastic, but that riccardia is outstanding.


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## plantbrain

Tanks actually a little bit ratty too, but in a another month or so, most things will be filled in well.


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## psantos

Wow, that's amazing mate congrats!


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## plantbrain

Redid some stuff, have an open house coming up with the SF club.







I will redo the Blood vomits, the Hydrothrix will fill in a lot in the next 1-2 weeks, it's a weed.
I moved the Erio setaceum to the back, they did better there. 
I uprooted all the A. reineckii mini and replanted them last week. I'll replant a could of other things, trim some of the faster growers 1-2x more times before the open house.








HC is insanely nice compared to messing with the E hydropiper. 5-10X easier.


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## plantbrain

30 sec video with the schooling behavior a focus


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## OllieNZ

Very nice  how many fish?


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## Michael W

Should do something like 'Guess how many sweets are in the jar?'


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## Greenfinger2

Michael W said:


> Should do something like 'Guess how many sweets are in the jar?'



Me first 75


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## plantbrain

OllieNZ said:


> Very nice  how many fish?



About 100 of the pork chops.


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## plantbrain

I'm likely going to redo the tank in a while. I have 2 exams for certification for my business and contract work coming up in Oct and Nov, so I'll be in study mode for those, and redoing a tank works well somethings in that mid set. 
Other times, I just feel guilty if I do anything other than study and work.


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## plantbrain




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## Bhu

I just finally made it through all 32 pages of this post! What can I say that hasn't been already! Wow! Great caretaker-ship... 

You clearly are an expert in the field. Keep it up  I'd like to see more pics of before and after of the mowing to help me learn how to mow all the different types of plant...


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## Bhu

Other words came....

A great visionary artist that works with nature at its best...


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## plantbrain




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## GHNelson

Hi Tom
The tall spikey plant to the left?
I would remove and replace with something else, it seems to overpower the rest of the scape when grown in!
Lovely tank as always!
Cheers
hoggie


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## Martin in Holland

Unreal mate


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## Alexander Belchenko

Tom, I'm trying to find information on your wet-dry prefilter constriction and operation principle. I find some items similar to yours on e-bay and on some marine manufacturer site. Here is video about installation and starting it from marine site: 
Is it like yours? Can you tell us whether air pump should work all the time or it's required only to start the prefilter. In the case of power outage will this prefilter restart itself when power is back, or it needs some manual intervention? Thanks.


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## plantbrain




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## maciekoril

I 've read the all 35 pages. Fantastic scape with healthy plants. What is your NO3 week dose now? And typical level of NO3 in water ?

Cheers


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## GreenNeedle

Amazing range of colour in there Tom, looks great to the eye


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## plantbrain




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## Rodrigo Isaac

This aquarium is fantastic! Plant health is amazing all appear to be well pruned and with fantastic colors, those plants with all this health and explendedor is certainly the dream of every aquascaper!!!


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## plantbrain




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## Fez

Hello Tom,

I have to say I really really adore this tank and it really makes me want to have such a colorful plant growth in mine as well.
Is there anywhere where I can find the overall stats of this tank? Like what its measurements are (all I know is that 120 gallons must be somewhere near 440 liters), the lighting, other technical equipment and most of all I'm interested in what levels of the pH, NO3, PO4, Fe, K, etc. you're aiming at.

Also, is there some kind of masterlist of what plants you keep in this tank? I do recognise many of them, but there are also quite a few that are not generally sold in Europe (at least that's what I think is the case).

I hope I'm not asking too many questions, but I'm greedy for details. 

Regards, Franziska


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## Bhu

Too stunning for words!

What sorted flow through rate is there? Do you have the plants swaying and a current the fish swim against?


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## EdwinK

Fez said:


> such a colorful plant growth



Franziska you need to buy yourself a latest version of Adobe Lightroom to achieve that kind of colours and all the plants are available in Europe. If you need a shop list - PM me.


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## plantbrain

Fez said:


> Hello Tom,
> 
> I have to say I really really adore this tank and it really makes me want to have such a colorful plant growth in mine as well.
> Is there anywhere where I can find the overall stats of this tank? Like what its measurements are (all I know is that 120 gallons must be somewhere near 440 liters), the lighting, other technical equipment and most of all I'm interested in what levels of the pH, NO3, PO4, Fe, K, etc. you're aiming at.
> 
> Also, is there some kind of masterlist of what plants you keep in this tank? I do recognise many of them, but there are also quite a few that are not generally sold in Europe (at least that's what I think is the case).
> 
> I hope I'm not asking too many questions, but I'm greedy for details.
> 
> Regards, Franziska




The tank is 120 cm by about 75 cm x 45 cm basically.
Light is 120cm 54W T5 bulbs, a mix of mostly red and a couple of white blue. 
Filter, CPR 1000 wet/dry filter, herbie style overflow.

Ferts are just eI, dosed 2x a week, I dose tracves more, and more frequently, 5-6x a week.
Water changes, generally 2x a week, about 60%.
I do not measure ferts, I do not need to with EI.

I'm not going to list every species, if you point something out, I' can tell you what the species is.



Bhu said:


> Too stunning for words!
> 
> What sorted flow through rate is there? Do you have the plants swaying and a current the fish swim against?



Generally about 700 gph, there's a slight sway in some locations, current for the fish, a little bit. 
I have more current in my 180, less in my 70 gallon, and a lot more in the Reef.



EdwinK said:


> Franziska you need to buy yourself a latest version of Adobe Lightroom to achieve that kind of colours and all the plants are available in Europe. If you need a shop list - PM me.



Not likely, as L sphaerocarpa is only available thus far through hobbyists and mostly in the USA. I have sent some to some hobbyists overseas, but it's not in commercial production as far as I know yet. 
Same with Erio compressum. 

In time, most of the aquatic plants end up wolrdwide within the hobby, but it just takes a few years for them to to be grown and then widely available locally. 
I think we had 10 species when I started in the hobby, then in the early 1990's, maybe 30. Now it's maybe 400.

FYI, there's no photoshopping used. I use auto settings on a Canon G12, then resize or crop. The image processing sometimes changes the true colors that's in the Canon camera depending on the lighting. 
I've shown how light colors impact the photo's and colors of the plants themselves. 

Example here is with mostly blue and a little white, without the deeper red of the URI Red sun:


right under the red lights in the same tank just 2-3 weeks prior:


The Canon MKII 5D has different colors for the same picture, no post processing is done there.  
You can tell a lot if the images are dark, or the red plants or colors have a magenta hue. 

Darker pictures remove some of the haze in the water, but they also make the reds much deeper blood red. 
I try to keep what I see and what is actually in the tank true. If you embellish, then the people that come over and see my tanks will know I am lying. 
I've seen this done a great deal on line and people insist they did not post process the colors. 

I took their image and then lightened it up and it looks just like everyone else's plants.
the other plants next to them also looked like they should have also.

You cannot have a bright strong light, then a deep dark picture with little light and awesome red colors.
Bright light generally washes out red color.

Video is a good solution for people seeking to view what the tanks are really like.


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## Mark Green

> Generally about 700 gph, there's a slight sway in some locations, current for the fish, a little bit.
> I have more current in my 180, less in my 70 gallon, and a lot more in the Reef.



Im a little puzzled, constantly being told that for a planted tank you need 10x (tank volume an hour) as a general rule.

However you only pushing 4x your tank volume an hour and have great growth. 

Too stunning for words!


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## Bhu

Thanks for sharing! Keep it coming


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## maciekoril

[quote="plantbrain, post: 373462, member: 62"

Ferts are just eI, dosed 2x a week, I dose tracves more, and more frequently, 5-6x a week.
Water changes, generally 2x a week, about 60%.
I do not measure ferts, I do not need to with EI.

[/quote]
Why do you change water twice a week?? Normal EI dosing assume 50%WC week.  ??


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## Martin in Holland

Mark Green said:


> Im a little puzzled, constantly being told that for a planted tank you need 10x (tank volume an hour) as a general rule.
> 
> However you only pushing 4x your tank volume an hour and have great growth.
> 
> Too stunning for words!


Puzzles me too...???


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## parotet

The 10x filtering rule of thumb is just that, a rule of thumb... There are plenty of people here running large tanks which are far from applying this rule and still having superb tanks. I guess that if you are able to provide a good flow and the rest of issues are fine tuned you can do it.

Regarding the 2x WC, EI method does not indicates how many WC you need. It is a matter of what your plants ask for and the time you want/can devote to your tank. Personally I do 2x 50% weekly WC whenever I can (which is more or less always except when I have to travel). My tank looks much better like this. I also think that Tom's tank is somehow being pushed to the limit in terms of growing/ferts so the plants are probably releasing organic compounds at a fast rate... In that case, if I am not wrong, WC are a need to keep algae under control.

Jordi


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## Dantrasy

10x applies to smaller tanks imo. <120L. Imagine the filter(s) you'd need for a giant 1000L to achieve 10x turnover.


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## Fez

Thank you for the Information Tom!

Wow, 2x 60% water changes every week does seem like a lot! I suppose I'm simply kind of lazy when it comes to water changes....


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## maciekoril

Fez said:


> Thank you for the Information Tom!
> 
> Wow, 2x 60% water changes every week does seem like a lot! I suppose I'm simply kind of lazy when it comes to water changes....


For me this is no logicall. Is the one wc and 1\2 dose be easies way ?


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## Michael W

maciekoril said:


> For me this is no logicall. Is the one wc and 1\2 dose be easies way ?



I think it's mainly due to removing the organics produced by the plants, I think Tom had said earlier in the thread that he makes around $500 a month in this tank so there must be a lot of growth and organics released by the plants. And if you reduce the nutrients, the levels maybe too low for the plant mass. That is just my guess though, so we shall await for Tom's answer to your question.


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## plantbrain

When you pull up a lot of ADA AS and replant, that makes quite the mess. 
Also, staying on top of things has many benefits. 

Those are why we do __any water changes__ (mostly).
ADA suggest weekly large water changes, but we do not see anyone complaining about their dosing.  

I find that curious. ADA gets a free pass on that topic and rarely even a straight answer.   

I also do not do this many water changes on tank which receive less gardening, like the 70 Gallon Buce tank, maybe once a month there. Dosing is the same otherwise. 
Dosing is NOT why you do a water change, but if you want to use frequent water changes + dosing to keep a certain range, it's much easier and simpler than dosing and testing. 
But this assumes that some ppm of a specific or a set of nutrients is bad(for fish, plants, etc) when at excess values.  

The other issues when you uproot and move things around, trim etc, is the lowering of O2. Water changes remove the dirt/dust and adds plenty of O2 back. 
If you do not pull up a lot of stuff etc, then a water change is not really required. Still, lots of water changes cure most issues folks often have that have trouble, algae, poor plant health etc. 

It is simply put: the best advice to give broadly to aquarist. Simple, effective and keeps the tank very clean. 
Dosing is a minor part in all this.


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## plantbrain

Mark Green said:


> Im a little puzzled, constantly being told that for a planted tank you need 10x (tank volume an hour) as a general rule.
> 
> However you only pushing 4x your tank volume an hour and have great growth.
> 
> Too stunning for words!



How the water flows is important, the filtration also.
Shallow tank, wide lower pressure flow across the top.

The 180 has much more, but is deeper and less surface to volume ratio. Filtration rate is roughly the same, but I add a Vortech power head in that tank, adds well over 10X hr/movement.


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## plantbrain

parotet said:


> The 10x filtering rule of thumb is just that, a rule of thumb... There are plenty of people here running large tanks which are far from applying this rule and still having superb tanks. I guess that if you are able to provide a good flow and the rest of issues are fine tuned you can do it.
> 
> Regarding the 2x WC, EI method does not indicates how many WC you need. It is a matter of what your plants ask for and the time you want/can devote to your tank. Personally I do 2x 50% weekly WC whenever I can (which is more or less always except when I have to travel). My tank looks much better like this. I also think that Tom's tank is somehow being pushed to the limit in terms of growing/ferts so the plants are probably releasing organic compounds at a fast rate... In that case, if I am not wrong, WC are a need to keep algae under control.
> 
> Jordi



Yes, good post. 

EI has no set rule, it is arbitrary. It just offers a simple method to set a range of ppm's fairly tight or loose *depending on what the user desires, or assumes as risk or wants as target range*. 
Where someone wants to set those ranges is up to them, but you can start at 1x week, 50%, that's easy as far as the math goes and is generally a good range for folks that want get started and modify from there. 
Uprooting, moving plants around , making a mess, those are much more the reasons I do water changes than ppm management. 

Those are more chores, dosing is easy, no chore at all. Some make a chore, I'm not sure why.
Making the water change easy as possible is also a good idea.


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## plantbrain

I sold about 20 Erio sieboldaniums this week. Still have plenty.

It's that time of the year again when I redo the hardscape, pulled out 3-4 different sets of hardscaping materials


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## plantbrain

These are with the Canon 5D
All you need to do is resize.


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## plantbrain

Good news! I removed the wood from this tank, it is no more. This means Version 4.0 is up next.

This is the hardscape as of now, but I'll adjust them a bit here or there(no sediment to support them, adjust up or down here), but they will mostly be at the horizontal relative to the sediment slope. So downward to the eye.


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## X3NiTH

Thats a lot of really nice wood for one tank!


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## plantbrain

You need a lot of wood to work with to get the idea done nicely in a new scape. I started with a pile maybe 3x1x2 meters and parred it down to this.
Then these will be modified a little here or there as well.


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## R.W.

can't wait to see the new scape, I love the colours of this tank!


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## maciekoril

Hi Tom, Thank you for your reply. 
Plants looks amazing, Reddnes is fantastic. I've read that you prefer large WC. I am beginner with EI but  I follow EI rules(classic with 50% WC per week)in my tank and my plants is less colorful than your. I have a few question:
1. What do you think I should reduce the macro dose to achieve plants redness like you or increase the micro. I wonder what is your macro level (NO3, PO4, K) in typical day before WC?
2. Did You found that R. Valichi going bed when the macro level in water is too high (for example NO3 >30 ppm, or PO4 >3ppm)? 
3. How long is yur actual light period per day ?


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## Jaybles

I wish I could find wood like that round here!


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## stefanprisacariu

Can't get enough of this tank ...


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## XzNICEzX

Stunning tank where did u get the Trithuria sp. Blood vomit from >?


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## RynoParsons

Still waiting on a update for the new scape


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## rebel

any updates? [ Just read all 36 pages.... ]


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## Martin in Holland

rebel said:


> any updates? [ Just read all 36 pages.... ]


+1 ...except for the reading all 36 just now.


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## Pedro Rosa

Tom has been posting pictures on Facebook from time to time...


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## Andy D

Yep some updates there. Facebook seems to have stolen a lot of interaction with forums. However I guess it also saves people like Tom some time by just updating Facebook rather than 10 different forums.


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## rebel

Andy D said:


> Yep some updates there. Facebook seems to have stolen a lot of interaction with forums. However I guess it also saves people like Tom some time by just updating Facebook rather than 10 different forums.


Fair call. It seems like I need to sign up to view his channel. Grrr...


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## Jose

The matrix is sucking us all in. Someone has been right all along.


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## maciekoril

Hi Tom,
Please update this amazing thread. I have noted  on Facebook that your 120 gal scape  is operating and I wonder what new rare plants you are now keeping in it actually.
Thank in advance


----------



## GHNelson

Indeed....its time Tom!
Stop messing about with Manzy wood................ and give us a update!
Cheers
hoggie


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## foxfish

I think Tom is on holiday with Ceg?


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## maciekoril

And this is what he do on holiday..  http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/journals/242827-120-gallon-close-ups/page2


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## plantbrain

I'm getting ready to break the tank down and redo it. Many of you know me for the wood, but I've been busy collecting some really nice rock locally here in California. I run and mountain bike a lot and many of the areas I've spotted rock that is very well suited. I'm thinking of several of these to give a specific flow to the tank design and switch the planting more of the rare and colorful plants to the other 70 gallon which I just set up.


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## plantbrain

This rock is highly textured and has a green blue hue to a nice earthy brown. Mostly it is thin plate like, which is most useful and it can be cut and broken without too much effort. I have about 600 kg sitting here I've collect. I sold 300 kg off thus far. I mountain biked over it along a trail for a few years. It's just laying there.  I hike up with a backpack and carry it down. 600 kg is a lot of weight to move 1.7 km each way down a mountainside. I make make enough to pay for the time and gas.........but not much more. But it's more for my own selfish wants.


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## alto

Amazing stone!
- Private Land Treaty?

Laws here prohibit the removal of any plant or stone material (or anything really) from public lands


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## rebel

Haha I see some Heryy Rasio has rubbed off on you...


----------

