# Glass thickness?



## Bert2oo1 (14 Dec 2016)

Hey guys I'm getting the funds together to build my own aquarium. I'm just wondering how thick the glass will have to be? It will be a rimless with no bracing.

Dimensions will be 900x600x450h
Will 10mm toughened be fine? 

Any help would be great! Thanks 



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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

I build my own rimless tank 90*45*45 with 8mm normal soda lime glass panel with no problem. Bottom panel should be thicker.  If you plan to use softer low iron glass or Sapphire  etc better use 10mm

Just remember to leave some space for silicone. Silicon should not be too thin, mine around 0.5-1 mm. If too thin it will not flexible enough and may have risk of failure. 

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## Bert2oo1 (14 Dec 2016)

ahjoe0digi said:


> I build my own rimless tank 90*45*45 with 8mm normal soda lime glass panel with no problem. Bottom panel should be thicker.  If you plan to use softer low iron glass or Sapphire  etc better use 10mm
> 
> Just remember to leave some space for silicone. Silicon should not be too thin, mine around 0.5-1 mm. If too thin it will not flexible enough and may have risk of failure.
> 
> Sent from my MX4 using Tapatalk



Thanks for the reply  so basically if I go 10mm it should be fine and a little bit stronger. Thanks for the heads up with the silicon, I'm a builder by trade so I'm thinking it all should be pretty basic for me. Just need to source some glass now  


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## zozo (14 Dec 2016)

It's the height of the tank creating the pressure inside, in the formula to calculate the thickness only the largest panel in Height and lenght is required.
All smaller panels used to complete the tank should be same thickness unless you have plans to hang heavy equipment to it..  Including bottom if not self supporting.. Self supporting bottoms are rarely used, standard tanks are meant to stand on a sufficient supporting cabinet.

Here is a nice read about what to take into consideration, the formulas used and a calculator.. 
http://www.aquarium-glass.co.uk/

According the calculator depending on the cut you have 2 options in safety factor. If edges are fully polished factor 5 and 8mm thickness is sufficient.
Non polished edges factor 6.8 you would be beter off with 10mm thickness.

So yes with 10mm you are in the save zone..


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## Bert2oo1 (14 Dec 2016)

zozo said:


> It's the height of the tank creating the pressure inside, in the formula to calculate the thickness only the largest panel in Height and lenght is required.
> All smaller panels used to complete the tank should be same thickness unless you have plans to hang heavy equipment to it..  Including bottom if not self supporting.. Self supporting bottoms are rarely used, standard tanks are meant to stand on a sufficient supporting cabinet.
> 
> Here is a nice read about what to take into consideration, the formulas used and a calculator..
> ...



Thanks for the info, that's a very helpful tool right there. I'm waiting to hear back from some glass company's now. Hopefully get it all underway before the new year


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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

I prefer thicker bottom because it provide larger area of Silicon to give better strength, not because thick glass provide structural support.  Since bottom panel lies on flat surface it do not give structural support at all accept when you want to move your aquarium without clearing all hardscape inside. Normally these parts are prone to structural failure.





Just remember to trim the edge of glass panel. (uniform silicone seam) 






My 2nd DIY tank
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## zozo (14 Dec 2016)

ahjoe0digi said:


> I prefer thicker bottom because it provide larger area of Silicon to give better strength



It probably would, something to think about indeed, only if the bottom panel is placed inside the side panels.. Which is the strongest construction method. But still some builders prefer the side panels on the bottom panel, in this case the silicone area is bond to the sidepanel thinkness. Matter of preference i guess.. Me to i went for the bottom panel inside method..


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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

*So for some background information*

The defining factor for selecting the correct panel thickness is the largest panel size as this will produce the highest load factor. Also worth noting is that once you get to a certain width then only the height really needs to be considered (this is complicated overall but has to do with gravity, distribution of loads and such things).

*Glass types and considerations

Annealed Glass*, this is just normal float glass that most aquariums are made from. This is the type of glass in the formula below. Annealed glass varies quite widely from manufacture to manufacture and thus again you need to be careful when selecting this base material. Testing samples have seen tensile strength between 19.3 to 28.4MPa. 

For this reason 19.2MPa is used for the formula for the tensile strength. However if you are buying it and want to be more accurate you could ask the supplier for their test/sample data for their tensile strength
*
Toughen Glass* basically don't use this. It requires you to bond standard annealed panels due to the edging issues so although you get overall greater tensile strength the likelihood of a failure is greater.

Overall this makes toughened glass a pretty poor choice so avoid any aquarium made from such or making one from this yourself. 

*Annealed Glass*, this is normal float/clear glass that most aquariums are currently made from although the trend is changing. 

Annealed glass varies quite widely from manufacture to manufacture and thus again you need to be careful when selecting this base material and may well be worth asking for the manufacture that you are purchasing your glass from to provide their test/sample data accordinlgy.

Testing samples have seen tensile strength between 19 to 29MPa. 

*Low-Iron*, Common product names for low iron glass are Starphire, Opti-white, Diamonte and Ultra white. With less iron, the glass’s light transparency goes from 92-93%, to around 98-99%  

People have this myth as above comments have shown that it is actually not as strong as standard Annealed glass. This is not true, the structural properties in terms of tensile strength is the same. If you phone a manufacture and ask this would be confirmed. 

It is purely more cost effective to produce Annealed glass compared to low-iron. 

*Factor Of Safety*

I see the above link has suggested for braced tanks a factor of 3.8 should be used and if the edges are polished then this can be reduced to 2. I would suggest that 2 is rather low and would advice 2.5 as a minimum just based on working in the construction industry. Things such as leaning on the glass whilst doing maintenance or dropping a rock or branch into the glass are all things we should avoid but inevitably do. 

As mentioned though an unbraced tank requires high factors of course. I would suggest that you double the figures to 7.6 for non polished and 5 for polished edges. 

*Bottom Panel
*
I see no reason for it to be thicker in most cases with aquariums. The panel should be supported on the cabinet. However as stated overhung bases which are therefore self supporting are shown with calculation there. I would suggest however that the factor of safety is 5 rather than 3.8, this is due to the fact that an over sailing tank is move likely to be knocked accidentally by someone or something compared to one that is on a fully supporting stand. So this is more a pre-preemptive move to alleviate as many issues as possible after you have spent all this time building said tank. 

*Conclusion*
The calculations on the link above though as stated are pretty spot on. I would suggest always using polished edges for panels as they look more aesthetically pleasing and if budget allows to use low iron panels to all but the base (unless self-supporting). 

With all that 8mm is your minimum for your braceless tank. What isn't discussed and cannot be is the amount of deflection that panel will show. For that reason 10mm is often chosen so there is no visible deflection in the panel. 

The EA 900 tank for instance is 900x500mm (WxH) main panel and uses a 10mm glass pane to keep deflection to a minimum. 

Another note I would just state in regards to your size aquarium that isn't related to the glass thickness is the height means that leaning in to prune plants etc will be more of a task compared to a 500/550mm aquarium so that should be something to consider. 

Regards,

Adam


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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

Yup in most case,  I just want to be secure and I always need to move my aquarium without disturb my scape inside. If aquarium stay in one place then same thickness should be OK. 

I always glue my front panel on side of my bottom panel for aesthetic purpose,  similar to ADA. 

Since you build for trade you should invest some on this very useful tools. Forget the name but it hold 2 glass panel in 90 degree

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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

I will also state that the weight/load of water will be far greater on the front panel than the hardscape/substrate of an empty tank when moving so you should also never need to have a panel thicker to allow for this either.


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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

Please do not use tempered glass. 
Tempered glass explode in case of failure .

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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> I will also state that the weight/load of water will be far greater on the front panel than the hardscape/substrate of an empty tank when moving so you should also never need to have a panel thicker to allow for this either.


Err,  actually I will drain all water out before moving my aquarium.  So all the weight will bare by bottom panel.  That is why I need thicker bottom to support the weight. However in normal usage bottom panel will not affect much, thickness only affect joint area between front and bottom panel. 




Sorry for my drawing. This is the case of tank on cabinet 

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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

No no, sorry you are miss understanding what I mean.

The weight of the water when in-situ exerts far greater loads on the front & rear panels at all times during it's life than the weight of your substrate and hardscape will exert on your base panel when drained and being moved. Thus the same panel thickness for the base would be fine to hold the weight of said materials. 

In fact as the base panel is held by 4 sides rather than 3 like a rimless/braceless tank you should certainly have no issues as the load is spread between more surface area.


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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

ahjoe0digi said:


> Please do not use tempered glass.
> Tempered glass explode in case of failure .
> 
> Sent from my MX4 using Tapatalk



That was what was stated. Larger aquariums (public ones for instances) have sometimes used them in a laminated form as you can then increase the tensile strength to much greater levels by doing so compared to just low-iron/annealed panels.


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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> No no, sorry you are miss understanding what I mean.
> 
> The weight of the water when in-situ exerts far greater loads on the front & rear panels at all times during it's life than the weight of your substrate and hardscape will exert on your base panel when drained and being moved. Thus the same panel thickness for the base would be fine to hold the weight of said materials.
> 
> In fact as the base panel is held by 4 sides rather than 3 like a rimless/braceless tank you should certainly have no issues as the load is spread between more surface area.


You are right, just did some  calculation. Numbers are more accurate than feeling.
Pressure =depth X density X gravitational acceleration. 

Pressure exerted on side panel are always bigger than hardscape. Unless hardscape weight more than full tank of water. 

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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

Exactly  glad we at agreement. And yes of course rule of thumb applies but I would question anyone who has a hardscape that weighs more than 50% of water in the tank. Maybe on heavy all stone hardscapes in smaller aquariums (not nano cause minimum glass thickness would already be enough) but as things are scaled up this is likely to be less of an issue as well.


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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> Exactly  glad we at agreement. And yes of course rule of thumb applies but I would question anyone who has a hardscape that weighs more than 50% of water in the tank. Maybe on heavy all stone hardscapes in smaller aquariums (not nano cause minimum glass thickness would already be enough) but as things are scaled up this is likely to be less of an issue as well.


 planning on build my third tank, this time should be 120*40*40 or 150*50*50. I like to build my own tank to save money and I can get any size and shape I want.   





Do you know what is this??  May invest some money to get this in case I need to build bigger tank

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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

Good shout and bigger the better  so my vote for the 150x50x50. I will say that 150x60x50 works nicely because timber boards come in 8x4ft lengths for instance so you can cut one in half to get your 60cm/2ft width you need (will loose 2mm from cutting and cleaning edges but not anything to worry about. 

So with that would often advice going with multiples in ft because of boards you can buy from hardware just to reduce cutting and often increase the usable board count. Although I am tempted by a 150x90x60 in future out of 15mm superwhite glass.

That glass can be brought US$5 per m2 and although you have to buy 100m2 minimum that's only US$500. sheets come in 1600x2400mm sizes so you basically would be ordering 26 sheets at that size. (although you can of course order custom sizing as needed)

Imagine how many aquariums you could build with that. You just need some more of those clamps (to hold all corners in place so you can build quicker, an industrial glass cuter and edge polish machine and you could start knocking out some aquariums to order


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## ahjoe0digi (14 Dec 2016)

Actually I'm not the author of this thread. Feel like hijack his thread. But that big tank just for my own use.  My current diy tank in use only 90*25*25. I use it to practice my skill in creating depth and sense of scale. Now I want to get a bigger tank for next aquascape.  

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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

Yeah sorry OP. Just thought all info was interesting to know for people building own aquarium tanks.


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## Carpman (14 Dec 2016)

ahjoe0digi said:


> planning on build my third tank, this time should be 120*40*40 or 150*50*50. I like to build my own tank to save money and I can get any size and shape I want.
> 
> View attachment 95916
> 
> ...



That's a corner clamp / square clamp


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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

Oops missed question. It looks to be this model clamp

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/han...-129f235df603&istItemId=aqrxqimia&istBid=tztx

They are not bad prices. I would suggest getting 4 so that you can keep it clamped on one side whilst you add the new side. Bar clamps are also a good idea for larger tanks. 

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/han...-129f235df603&istItemId=aqrxiwxam&istBid=tztx

Don't forget you need a large perfectly flat surface to produce on as well. I know one place that created a concrete plinth with self levelling compound and polish finished it so it was solid and dead level so that they could work on the glass.


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## Bert2oo1 (14 Dec 2016)

Wow thanks for all the info guys. Some really good suggestions etc. 

A very good point was about the size of my aquarium. I'm got a 120x60x60 at the moment and your right it's a nightmare to try and reach the back (it's just that little bit far) maybe I will scale it back abit to 900x50x50? 

I've already got some of those clamps in the shed so I'll be using them for sure 

Ok so if I was to go 900x50x50 then the glass measurements I need would be:
880x500 base
900x500 x2
500x500 x2
(I want 500mm internal atleast. Size is worked out on the scape I have planned) 

Is this right? Or so I need to take 2mm off the base measurement for silicon? 


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## Adam Chambers (14 Dec 2016)

No problem 

In regards to dimensions. Assuming you are going for internal base design (as standard) then you want to allow 2mm for each side that has a silicone bead.

So that would mean you want

Panel A = 876x496/Length x Depth (base)
Panel B = 900x510/Length x Height (Front & Rear Panel)
Panel C = 496x510/Depth x Height (Left & Right Panels)

This would give you internal measurements of 880x500/Length x Depth and internal height of exactly 500mm (Allowing the standard 2mm bead depth for silicone & 10mm low iron glass being used).

I would make sure every edge is polished and has diamond edging (chamfered edges) Elos & Evolution Aqua both do this and they are both pretty high end so I would use the same principle. It also means you can not get them the wrong way around accidently.

Hope that helps. Here is a quick diagram (top down with basic dims).


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## Bert2oo1 (15 Dec 2016)

Just got my first quote for the glass, for 10mm float glass with polished edges to the sizes I need would be $511 (about 260 pound) does that sound reasonable to you guys? 


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## Adam Chambers (15 Dec 2016)

That seems expensive for float glass (standard glass) I can get a full low iron cut with polished edges to your dimensions for 5% more. 

and the cost for float glass version is about 20% less than the low iron making it about £220 

To give an idea a commercial made low iron can be brought for £299 in same dimensions pretty much (bar 2") so add in silicone and the time and all that and savings are minimal TBH.

And ND aquatics for instance in U.K. does a float glass tank 90x60x60 (36x24x24) for £184 and another company offer a 120x60x60 float (braced mind) for £144


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## Bert2oo1 (15 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> That seems expensive for float glass (standard glass) I can get a full low iron cut with polished edges to your dimensions for 5% more.
> 
> and the cost for float glass version is about 20% less than the low iron making it about £220
> 
> ...



Yea I thought it seemed pretty expensive. Considering it's just for the glass and no assembly. Maybe I should just buy a sheet of glass and just cut and polish it myself. Still waiting for a few more quotes to come through. Hopefully I can get it down abit more. I can get 1200x900 sheets of 10mm toughened for $96 so it really does make the float glass look expensive


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## Adam Chambers (15 Dec 2016)

I have managed to find a place in UK that would do the glass for £230 which appears cheapest so in honesty I don't think it is cost effective unless you are buying in bulk from China with custom panels and making 40 tanks a year in honesty. 

I can work them out to cost closer to £100 a tank then which means you could sell them for £220 built to others and make around £100 per tank then. But of course it is the time and effort. It may be worth it if you had enough space to do so. 

I mean you can get low iron glass panels pretty cheap. It's about US$8 per m2 and your aquarium is around 1.82m2 so that would be US$16 for all the glass but you need to order 1000m2 in bulk so about 500 aquariums worth 

Or you can get the glass for around US$11.50 per m2 so US$23 and you need to order min 100m2 of glass so more like 50 aquariums. Of course there are shipping fees to be added which I can't guess at. 

However this is why there are not lots of little independent tank builders knocking 10 tanks a year out as it needs commitment. I did look into it years ago but realised would need around US$50k to set up. 

Materials were about 50% with equipment 40% and 10% for first 6 months rental on a unit large enough for the machines.


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## Bert2oo1 (15 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> I have managed to find a place in UK that would do the glass for £230 which appears cheapest so in honesty I don't think it is cost effective unless you are buying in bulk from China with custom panels and making 40 tanks a year in honesty.
> 
> I can work them out to cost closer to £100 a tank then which means you could sell them for £220 built to others and make around £100 per tank then. But of course it is the time and effort. It may be worth it if you had enough space to do so.
> 
> ...



Yea it's actually looking to be more expensive than I thought. I might just keep my eye out at my local shops for a rimless of similar size and just buy a tank without a stand. However u just don't get the clarity like u do if u custom make it with optiwhite  

Rimless tanks seem to be hard to find down here though. Plus it's hard to find the width I want. 

I'll keep an eye out for glass in my local but and sell forums and hopefully something pops up. 


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## Adam Chambers (15 Dec 2016)

Sorry to hear that, where are you based?


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## Bert2oo1 (15 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> Sorry to hear that, where are you based?



I'm in Tasmania Australia. Everything is expensive in Aus. Sometimes I wish I lived in China haha 


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## Adam Chambers (15 Dec 2016)

Haha, you could always check out shipping, probably still work out cheaper lol


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## Bert2oo1 (15 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> Haha, you could always check out shipping, probably still work out cheaper lol



Definitely worth looking into. However we have the most expensive shipping lane in the world. Bass straight we pay 20 cents more for our fuel than the rest of Aus because it needs to be shipped across bass straight. (Basically we just get ripped off) haha

However there is still hope, the company I got the quote off told me where they source the glass from so I might go there and see if I can get it direct. I can also cut it myself and just pay to get the edges polished. That might save me abit too


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## Adam Chambers (16 Dec 2016)

Fair play. I got a quote for a tank I was looking at doing and the guy in China said US$34.50 per m2 for 15mm panel and all edges polished. Works out about US$170 for a 1500x90x600 tank but need to buy enough material to make 50


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## Bert2oo1 (16 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> Fair play. I got a quote for a tank I was looking at doing and the guy in China said US$34.50 per m2 for 15mm panel and all edges polished. Works out about US$170 for a 1500x90x600 tank but need to buy enough material to make 50



That's a lot of tanks! Haha it's amazing how something that costs so little over there can be so expensive over here lol. You'd need a shipping container just to store all that glass and the tanks lol


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## Adam Chambers (16 Dec 2016)

Bert2oo1 said:


> That's a lot of tanks! Haha it's amazing how something that costs so little over there can be so expensive over here lol. You'd need a shipping container just to store all that glass and the tanks lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Certainly wood, this is why I was looking into it. Getting a small warehouse unit with tools and going into building such. I have a friend who is a metal worker so could create steel stands. We would offer generic sizes but in more custom size compared to that of the mainstream. 

To try and fill a gap in the market really. We had some designs done where the rear panel would be a frosted panel also and there would be an overflow system with holes pre-drilled into base for filter tubes to fix too with lock-tapes. The design would mean that you still use a standard canister filter however you don't have any visible pipework as that is all built into the aquarium itself.


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## ahjoe0digi (16 Dec 2016)

I just hope that there are glass factory with precise laser cutting machine controlled by computer. I always ask them to cut and polish for me because I don't have the necessary tools and working surface. However if you plan to cut yourself, just remember to cut a bit more than intended. Polishing going to remove some glass. 

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## Bert2oo1 (16 Dec 2016)

Adam Chambers said:


> Certainly wood, this is why I was looking into it. Getting a small warehouse unit with tools and going into building such. I have a friend who is a metal worker so could create steel stands. We would offer generic sizes but in more custom size compared to that of the mainstream.
> 
> To try and fill a gap in the market really. We had some designs done where the rear panel would be a frosted panel also and there would be an overflow system with holes pre-drilled into base for filter tubes to fix too with lock-tapes. The design would mean that you still use a standard canister filter however you don't have any visible pipework as that is all built into the aquarium itself.



That sounds like an awesome idea!! I'd buy one! The frosted glass idea would look great with back lighting! And I hate seeing those ugly filter hoses! Sounds like u put some serious thought into this  wouldn't work here where I am because our population is only 500,000 so I recon u would struggle to sell them (we don't have any aquarium groups or anything).


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## Bert2oo1 (16 Dec 2016)

ahjoe0digi said:


> I just hope that there are glass factory with precise laser cutting machine controlled by computer. I always ask them to cut and polish for me because I don't have the necessary tools and working surface. However if you plan to cut yourself, just remember to cut a bit more than intended. Polishing going to remove some glass.
> 
> Sent from my MX4 using Tapatalk



Thanks for your input  about how much would the polish take of the glass? 1-2mm? 


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## KipperSarnie (16 Dec 2016)

This would have been about '72 I saw my first ever all glass tank in Au, Perth or Freemantle.
I was amazed silicone had just about come in in the UK but only as a sealer to help stop metal framed tanks with putty from leaking.
Decided it would never catch on!! 
Doh!  
Not often I'm right but I was wrong again!


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