# Ph pen recommendation



## David Edwards (20 Apr 2018)

As title says, any recommendations - appear to be loads on Amazon.

Thanks


----------



## dw1305 (20 Apr 2018)

Hi all, 





David Edwards said:


> As title says, any recommendations - appear to be loads on Amazon.Thanks


 You need to buy a meter with "2 point calibration" and the buffers (pH4, pH7 and pH10) to calibrate the meter.

Hanna is a good make and I wouldn't spend less than £50 on the meter.

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo (20 Apr 2018)

I would say from experience also as Darrel says. buy one form the professional brands like Hana or Milwaukee and one that has a refill option. Tad more expensive but if treated well a once in  a life time buy.. The glass probe is permeable and filled with a gel substance. This it uses to compare conductivity between gel and water and calculate the acidity. It never is allowed to be stored dry. It's best to store them with a little destilled water or a damp piece of cotton in the cap. But while storing them and not using for some time it still can dry out. The thing is, if the gel substance in the prode dries/changes in consistancy it can't be properly calibrated anymore.. If it doesn't come with a refill option than it's good for the trashbin. Also experienced cheaper ones having a darn slow reaction time with a still fluctuating value after 10 minutes in the water than you still don't know what the heck is going on.


----------



## Andrew Butler (20 Apr 2018)

Either the Hanna 98100 or 98103 are both accurate and easy to use.
I got the 98100 but unsure if you need the .01 PH so if I was to get another I might just get the 98103 and settle for .1 PH reading.
http://www.hannainstruments.co.uk/parameters/ph/testers.html


----------



## zozo (20 Apr 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> Either the Hanna 98100 or 98103 are both accurate and easy to use.
> I got the 98100 but unsure if you need the .01 PH so if I was to get another I might just get the 98103 and settle for .1 PH reading.
> http://www.hannainstruments.co.uk/parameters/ph/testers.html



Seems i'm oldfashion..  Refillable is replaced with.


> Replaceable Electrode – No need to replace the whole meter when the electrode needs replacing. Spare and replacement electrodes are available for this product.


----------



## David Edwards (20 Apr 2018)

Andrew Butler said:


> Either the Hanna 98100 or 98103 are both accurate and easy to use.
> I got the 98100 but unsure if you need the .01 PH so if I was to get another I might just get the 98103 and settle for .1 PH reading.
> http://www.hannainstruments.co.uk/parameters/ph/testers.html


Hi Andrew,
These look good.
Clicking onto the website it suggests 2 other products to buy, namely  combination buffer solution and storage solution - are these essential items - the latter suggests it might be?
Thanks


----------



## Andrew Butler (20 Apr 2018)

Hi David,
You can't let the tip dry out so you need to put either a few drops of storage solution or PH buffer solution (7 I think) on the tip when you finish.
Buffer solutions you need to calibrate the pen; quite how often I'm not entirely sure, they say every time you use it. Someone else might be better placed to advise you here.
You can use other buffer solutions but I don't know about a good source - hopefully someone can advise you and me both at the same time.
You do get a couple of sachets with the pen to get you started.


----------



## dw1305 (20 Apr 2018)

Hi all, 





David Edwards said:


> Clicking onto the website it suggests 2 other products to buy, namely combination buffer solution and storage solution - are these essential items - the latter suggests it might be?


Yes, you need both the buffers and the storage solution. 

*Storage solution*
The storage solution is potassium chloride (4M KCl) and is required because the probes are modified conductivity probes that exchange potassium ions (K+)  from the reservoir inside the probe, for an H+ ion (in the water), across an ion selective semi-permeable membrane. 

This ion swap generates the voltage that the meter converts into a pH reading. More H+ ions in the water leads to a larger flow of ions and an acidic pH value, fewer H+ ions in the water leads to a lower flow of ions and an alkaline pH. 

If you store the probe in RO water, K+ ions will continually leak out of the pH probe. If you store the probe in a strong solution of K+ ions  you don't get any leakage. If the membrane dries out it will stop working.

*pH buffers*
The pH buffers are solutions which consist of an acid and its conjugated base. By altering the proportion of the acid and base you can get a solution with a stable pH, because there is a reserve of un-dissolved compounds, this the "buffer". 

<"Phosphate buffers"> are often used, they are mixtures of Na2HPO4 (a base, it has two Na+ ions) and NaH2PO4 (an acid, it has two H+ ions). 

Buffering is not entirely straightforward and I've never really found a good way of explaining it. The <"explain stuff - pH page"> is quite good. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus. (20 Apr 2018)

I agree with Darrel and Zozo and disagree at the same time. You get what you pay for but if you accept the limitations of a cheap pH pen I have found them still useful for doing a pH profile. I got a 0.01 Resolution Digital PH Meter Large LCD Pen Water Quality Tester with Auto Calibration Function and 0.00-14.00 Measurement Range of Amazon £10.00 and find it a very useful tool. Is it accurate  I think not and it is a little slow to get a stable reading, but I just leave it clipped to side of tank and its not too bad.





I dont compare the pH reading from day to day, infact I had to replace the battery recently and I didnt even calibrate it again. But as a quick check to see if the pH is 'stable' what ever the pH reading out is for one photoperiod I think its limitations are acceptable which in turn make them a good buy or better than no pH pen.


----------



## David Edwards (20 Apr 2018)

Hi Zues,

The driver behind my decision was to do a pH profile. I had seen the type you have on Amazon and wondered how good they were in light of the price.


----------



## Zeus. (20 Apr 2018)

The pH pens which Darrel and Zozo mention are in a completely different class OFC. But for £10 you cant go wrong with it IMO (a pH probe for my pH controller cost more than that) But I wouldn't trust the reading form day to day without re-calibrating, I would say there better than not having a pen and what does £10 buy you nowadays anyway.


----------



## alto (21 Apr 2018)

Except that single point electronic calibration may be yards off & you'd never know unless you check with standards, 
there again if you only use a single point standard, imagine any slope (for the curve) that passes though the single point 


Only way to know if your pH reading has any validity is by checking calibration standards that encompass your range, & test reading a known solution selected to be midrange 

Eg, if you're working pH 7.0 - 6.0
choose pH 4.01 & pH 7.00 calibration buffers, test solution of pH 5.60 (common) 
Of course these solutions all have limited shelf life, and are prone to user error (& contamination)

pH probes are subject to (in)accuracy & (im)precision

Most hobby grade probes are pretty shite, Hanna has consistently offered a decent lower level product


----------



## Angus (21 Apr 2018)

Surely a cheaper probe would do for a PH profile for co2? it might read the wrong PH but it would still read the 1.0 drop? or am i just completely wrong?


----------



## David Edwards (21 Apr 2018)

I suppose that would work provided it is consistently inaccurate!


----------



## dw1305 (21 Apr 2018)

Hi all,
I agree with @alto, pH meters are much more problematic and higher maintenance than people realise.





Angus said:


> Surely a cheaper probe would do for a PH profile for co2? it might read the wrong PH but it would still read the 1.0 drop? or am i just completely wrong?


You could be right or wrong.

A lot depends on the composition of the water you are testing. If you have high conductivity water with a lot of carbonate buffering (plenty of H+ ion acceptors), pretty much any pH meter will give you an accurate and consistent reading of about pH 8. You can think of the sea, or Lake Tanganyika, it takes a huge addition of acids (H+ ion donors) to change the pH, because you have a huge buffer of bases (H+ ion acceptors), that will neutralise the acid addition. 

The same applies to an acidic solution (one with lots of H+ ion donors), you are going to read consistently below pH4, and you need to add a lot of bases to neutralise the acid. 

The problems come because pH is both a ratio, and a log10 scale. When you are looking at the CO2 ~ HCO3- ~ CO3 ~ pH equilibrium you are looking <"at a buffered system with relatively small changes in the amount of H+ ions"> (it is worth reading to the end of the linked thread).  

I'm not a CO2 user (there are plenty of ways to accidentally kill your fish, why would you want to add another one?), but if I was I wouldn't be relying on the accuracy of a cheap pH meter to regulate the CO2 levels. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Zeus. (21 Apr 2018)

Angus said:


> Surely a cheaper probe would do for a PH profile for co2? it might read the wrong PH but it would still read the 1.0 drop? or am i just completely wrong?



Well thats how I use it, I use the pH reading is just a number not the actual pH, I assume is isnt accurate. I use the DC colour change to get an idea of the level of the [CO2] keeping an eye on the livestock, fish up at the surface its too high so dail back a bit on injection rate. then use that pH reading its just a number after all. Knowing what the actual pH is doesn't help us after all. then I take the readings on a freash run time to hit target pH that gives my pre lights CO2 on time, then does the target pH remain stable for the main part of the photoperiod whilst the CO2 is on.

My pH on my tank ATM via pH controler is 8.22





the starting pH varies day to day being lower just after WC and highest just before WC. Target pH is 6.66 everyday with the pH though the photoperiod varing about 0.1 dependant on light intensity. Thats a pH drop of 1.56 if the pH probe is giving accurate reading which I assume it isnt OFC. But the DC has the same colour change so what does it matter what the actual pH reading says. I do run my tank with a big pH drop to keep the carpet going and it does keep the algea at bay.

After all the general consensus is dont bother with pH controllers ( I only use mine for the getting to the target pH with my duel CO2 injection and PLC setup , but it is OTT) using a constant injection rate gives more stable [CO2] for the photoperiod but doing a pH profile is key to making sure the target pH is reached before lights on and the [CO2] is relatively stable for the first 4-5hours of photo period, which is normally better achieve buy having a higher CO2 injection rate in combination with high surface agitation.

A better pH pen/probe is great, but IMO simular results can be achieved with the cheaper pH pens as long as you take into consideration their inherent limitations and inaccurate pH readings. Taking care not to kill your livestock - after all its only CO2 injected tanks that have CO2 related problems and according to Clive 95% of the problems in CO2 injected tanks are poor CO2 implementation related.


----------



## zozo (21 Apr 2018)

I tried CO²  in aquarium for only 2 years and when the gas ran out never bothered to buy any new gas. I'm to much of a buddhist for CO², not a race car fan, i'm an oldtimer fan. Rather patiently enjoy the ride in a slow pace and gently sway around the complications. The journey is more important than the destination.

But in my vegtable gardening history i collected quite a few pH meters i could play with during this time. Few newly both and a few on the used market, i still have the Milwaukee and the Hanna and a few cheaper brands i don;t rmember what brand they are, total about 5 of them, could be 6 if i do a search.. And each meter has it's issues and limitations by it's own. And funny is even if all calibrated correctly with the very same calibration method still non of them showed the excact same valua measuring a solution that was more than 1 point away from it's calibration point. There always was a deviation in the reading.. Iniminimynimo  and picked the most expensive one and hope it's the most accurate.

Actualy i never gave it much thought about how these things function, it was here at UKAPS i learned that for the first time.. Did some more reading into it and actualy they are awfully simple volt meter devices. I also learned to understand some simple and obvious pH measuring basics that are a bit shrouded in mystery in the general consensus by the users because it's for technical viewpoint and likely other conveniences not fully correctly explained in the manuals.

Since they all have a percantage accuracy deviations is the reason what makes calibration important. The further away you measure from your target calibration the more this deviation obviously will be. Thus it makes sense to take this into account while calibrating.. If you calibrate 7 and your target value is near 4, you will have the maximun deviation the device can give. In this case you should calibrate 4 to have the minimum deviation.Makes sense doesn't it? If for example the inaccuraty is 1% than 1% of 3 is greater than 1% of 0,5. That's relatively simple.

What in this case doesn't make sense is why you always should do a 2 point calibration?. Because the devices accury discrepancy depends on your last calibration target. If your pH target is pH 6.8 than calibrating pH4 doesn't make any sense because you calibrate almost 3 points away from your target. (1% of 3 is greater than 1% of 0,5).

Calibrating is simple resetting the device to it's nearest target. 

Why even manufacturers still claim you always should do a 2 point calibration to be more accurate is a technical and mathematical mystery to me that probably has more to do with pH4 calibration fluid shelf life. Ph4 is the most unlikely target generaly used, who needs that value anyway if your not Dexter, ore a crop grower that needs pH 5?


----------



## Zeus. (21 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> I tried CO²  in aquarium for only 2 years and when the gas ran out never bothered to buy any new gas. I'm to much of a buddhist for CO², not a race car fan, i'm an oldtimer fan. Rather patiently enjoy the ride in a slow pace and gently sway around the complications. The journey is more important than the destination.
> 
> But in my vegtable gardening history i collected quite a few pH meters i could play with during this time. Few newly both and a few on the used market, i still have the Milwaukee and the Hanna and a few cheaper brands i don;t rmember what brand they are, total about 5 of them, could be 6 if i do a search.. And each meter has it's issues and limitations by it's own. And funny is even if all calibrated correctly with the very same calibration method still non of them showed the excact same valua measuring a solution that was more than 1 point away from it's calibration point. There always was a deviation in the reading.. Iniminimynimo  and picked the most expensive one and hope it's the most accurate.
> 
> ...



Yes agree 100%, the calibrating the pH in the range being used is the best by to be close within that range your measuring, if you what the reading to be close to what it actually is. I have one pen one controller calibrate them both with same buffers and there fine at the buffers PH ( pH4 and pH7.0) but inbetween there close but not the same reading. Hence I use the reading as a number not the actual pH 

In my car same as all the spedo isnt accurate, but I use a GPS unit to get the actual speed and then set my cruise control or speed limiter to the speed I am happy with - normally GPS speed is about 10% lower than speedo speed ( I use the term speed loosely as its is velocity that the GPS gives as far as I'm aware)


----------



## Angus (21 Apr 2018)

Great reading guys thank you kindly for the in depth replies. 

i have always just used a drop checker with 4dkh in my co2 tanks never owned a ph pen. 

Since coming back to the hobby i am trying to perfect non-co2 growing in a moderate to high lighting tank, its going fine in the tank with lots of stems and hungry plants but the tank without a fast uptake of nutrients is struggling currently with algae, which doesn't surprise me all that much. 

Thanks again for the lessons guys.

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus. (21 Apr 2018)

Angus said:


> Thanks again for the lessons guys.



I dont see them as lessons its sharing info, you post what you have learnt or your assumptions from your reading and if your post is incorrect an expert with a greater depth of understanding corrects you. So we all learn/share together *Standing on the shoulders of giants* eg T Amano, T Barr, etc


----------



## zozo (21 Apr 2018)

Zeus. said:


> I dont see them as lessons its sharing info, you post what you have learnt or your assumptions from your reading and if your post is incorrect an expert with a greater depth of understanding corrects you. So we all learn/share together *Standing on the shoulders of giants* eg T Amano, T Barr, etc



Now this is a lesson...  And don't you ever forget!!..


----------



## Angus (21 Apr 2018)

Zeus. said:


> I dont see them as lessons its sharing info, you post what you have learnt or your assumptions from your reading and if your post is incorrect an expert with a greater depth of understanding corrects you. So we all learn/share together *Standing on the shoulders of giants* eg T Amano, T Barr, etc


I have to say i have learnt more from tom barr posts than takashi amano, but mr amano provided a lot of inspiration even if i was never an ADA fanboy.

Sent from my E2303 using Tapatalk


----------



## Zeus. (21 Apr 2018)

Angus said:


> but mr amano provided a lot of inspiration even if i was never an ADA fanboy.



T Amano was the first to inject CO2 into an aquascape so he has to be first on the list, But T Barr gave us EI  have to agree about ADA products, they Good bit like 'Apple' overprice for what they are ( would go for ADA AS given the choice all the same)


----------



## Angus (21 Apr 2018)

ADA aquasoil is the only one i trust, still not tried the tropica stuff @Zeus.


----------



## Zeus. (21 Apr 2018)

Angus said:


> ADA aquasoil is the only one i trust, still not tried the tropica stuff @Zeus.



I would use any really after all they are are 'clay baked granules' as long as the product has been on the market a while and no-ones complaining of them breaking down. But pound for pound if you can get ADA AS locally or as part of a trip to a supplier which you are going anyway. From my reading ADA AS is so packed with nutrients its good valve


----------



## zozo (21 Apr 2018)

Zeus. said:


> T Amano was the first to inject CO2 into an aquascape so he has to be first on the list



I remember an article telling the story that his first experience was with adding soda water to the aquariums..  And the accelerated growth surprised him and then he went adding pressurized CO²..


----------



## Zeus. (21 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> I remember an article telling the story that his first experience was with adding soda water to the aquariums..  And the accelerated growth surprised him and then he went adding pressurized CO²..



Thats what I read too  I read he added the soda water and the plants increased pearling. Either way it all history.


----------



## dw1305 (21 Apr 2018)

Hi all, 





zozo said:


> Why even manufacturers still claim you always should do a 2 point calibration to be more accurate is a technical and mathematical mystery to me that probably has more to do with pH4 calibration fluid shelf life. Ph4 is the most unlikely target generaly used, who needs that value anyway if your not Dexter, ore a crop grower that needs pH 5?


You can get pH10 buffers, ideally you should use pH7 and pH10 calibration for alkaline solutions, but the real point is that if you have a good meter it will give accurate, and repeatable values, across a whole range of water conditions.

cheers Darrel


----------



## zozo (21 Apr 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, You can get pH10 buffers, ideally you should use pH7 and pH10 calibration for alkaline solutions, but the real point is that if you have a good meter it will give accurate, and repeatable values, across a whole range of water conditions.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Yes i know.. But in the early days using them the shop i bought them always explained customers you should first calibrate 7 and than calibrate 4. I never qeustioned it.. But after a long time doing that i started reading into these devices and how they function i realized they where actualy telleing me bs. Ok for growing crops nearing a fert solution idealy around ph5 i get the 4.. But do the ph7 first is a waste with no meaning.

After that i took it to the test and stopped doing pointless 2 point calibration..  Because there never was a differnce doing a 2 point or a 1 point.. It just should always be calibrated once and nearest to the target value..


----------



## Tim Harrison (21 Apr 2018)

Me too, but I think Dutch aquascapers were using soda stream CO2 systems before Takashi's soda water experiment.

An extract from The Complete Aquarium Encyclopedia of Tropical Freshwater Fish, by J.D. van Ranshorst (1978) - which incidentally has a section devoted to plants...





What's also note worthy is the recognition that good flow and distribution is important.


----------



## zozo (21 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> Me too, but I think Dutch aquascapers were using soda stream CO2 systems before Takashi's soda water experiment.
> 
> An extract from The Complete Aquarium Encyclopedia of Tropical Freshwater Fish, by J.D. van Ranshorst (1978) - which incidentally has a section devoted to plants...
> 
> ...



Yes back then in the 70's i also red about CO² in aqauriums, but it also was unafortable science fiction for me. I never knew the date of Takashi's experiment..  Was that later?..


----------



## Tim Harrison (21 Apr 2018)

It was 1977...taken from Nature Aquarium World Book One TRF Takashi Amano (1996)...


----------



## sparkyweasel (21 Apr 2018)

It's not surprising if Amano didn't know that Europeans were already injecting CO2, as he states that in Japan he couldn't get hold of power filters or books on aquaium plants, which were widley available in Europe  and the US.


----------



## Tim Harrison (21 Apr 2018)

Yes, a totally different world back then, no internet or social media, so not many opportunities to share ideas and experiences, and aquascaping as we know it today was just a twinkle in Amano's eye


----------



## zozo (22 Apr 2018)

sparkyweasel said:


> It's not surprising if Amano didn't know that Europeans were already injecting CO2, as he states that in Japan he couldn't get hold of power filters or books on aquaium plants, which were widley available in Europe  and the US.



If i remember correctly Eheim started late 1960's with aquarium filters.. My first aqaurium was mid 1970's and i had an Eheim that's still sold today as the Eheim classic. My brother in law also had a large tropical aqurium and he was into breeding Kribs, i got my first Kribs from him. He wasn't much of a teacher, more shower keeping the secrets.. He also had some aquarium magazines i forgot the name of it. There i saw already some CO² aquariums mentioned, but at that time it didn't say much to me, it wasnt very informative all, adding CO² was a rather out of this world idea and only available to Jet set nerds. And indeed we had only a few books in the library, maybe 2 or 3 writin in our language, it was all about washed River sand and gravel only, all about preferably flat stones to create terraces, only Red moorwood was available and OK, there was nothing else and than make streets with plants from low to high in the back. The Dutch style, i guess back then everybody thought that's how you should do it. The few examples i've seen back then all were Dutch style setups. Actualy without even knowing its Dutch style.. That was just the idea how an aquarium should be setup and look.. And i'm Dutch, since the Dutch style aquarium idea was created in the 1930's it was already practiced for decades and all we knew in my country..


----------



## Angus (22 Apr 2018)

I have seen illustrations of cast iron aquariums kept in victorian times, they seem to have plants and fish, but who knows whether they are actually accurate!


----------



## zozo (22 Apr 2018)

Angus said:


> I have seen illustrations of cast iron aquariums kept in victorian times, they seem to have plants and fish, but who knows whether they are actually accurate!



They were highly toxic. and sealed with ordenary glas putty, some had a copper plate or a slate bottom and where heated with a petrol light or a candle under it. 

Actualy my very first aquarium was an outdoor tank in the garden, the neighbour gave it to me when i was a kid. Because i always dragged home buckets with tadpoales and small sticklebacks i caught in te local swamp. It was a steel rim tank, also sealed with putty. These tank weren't allowed to stand empty to long, if the putty dried out it was over and started leaking. Than the glass should be taken out cleaned and resealed. I have no idea what that old putty was made off, but i bet it wasn't very responsible to use regarding the fish etc.


----------



## Angus (22 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> They were highly toxic. and sealed with ordenary glas putty, some had a copper plate or a slate bottom and where heated with a petrol light or a candle under it. Actualy my very first aquarium was an outdoor tank in the garden, the neighbour gave it to me when i was a kid. Because i always dragged home buckets with tadpoales and small sticklebacks i caught in te local swamp. It was a steel rim tank, also sealed with putty. These tank weren't allowed to stand dry to long, if the putty dried out it was over and started leaking. Than the glass should be taken out cleaned and resealed. I have no idea what that old putty was made off, but i bet it wasn't very responsible to use regarding the fish etc.



Pretty sure it was a bitumen based sealant with all sorts of horrible stuff in it, can't blame them for trying though, i've seen a few tanks circa 1920's-30's in the flesh and they are pretty horrible lol.


----------



## zozo (22 Apr 2018)

It was chalkpowder mixed with oils, if you look it up alledgedly harmless oils were used.. But that i don't believe.. If you read stories that in times of crisis old used motor oils was put into chicken food creating the dioxine scandal.. God knows what they threw into the putty..


----------



## zozo (22 Apr 2018)

Angus said:


> can't blame them for trying though,



There is an old German quote from a famous Austrian zoologist, don't know if it known in other languages. But it says: 
"Every single nursed to death stickleback contributed more to wildlife preservation than any sign at a wildlife park entrance ever did"


----------



## Tim Harrison (22 Apr 2018)

zozo said:


> There i saw already some CO² aquariums mentioned, but at that time it didn't say much to me, it wasnt very informative all, adding CO² was a rather out of this world idea and only available to Jet set nerds.


That was my experience too. CO2 was some sort inaccessible dark art for the select few.



Angus said:


> I have seen illustrations of cast iron aquariums kept in victorian times, they seem to have plants and fish, but who knows whether they are actually accurate!


I had a very old aquarium book, with tanks in as you describe. Basically an angle iron frame holding glass panes sealed with some sort of putty or horrible tar like sealant, probably used to cork boats or something, and as you describe Marcel a paraffin burner underneath for heat, and a fuel driven pump for aeration  I wish I'd hung on to it...but I had a clear out, and at the time I thought I'd never keep a tank again 

A victorian tank form here http://www.aquariumarchitecture.com/archive/vintage-aquariums/ it reminds me of your Henry Goes Steam Punk tank Marcel


----------



## zozo (22 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> it reminds me of your Henry Goes Steam Punk tank Marcel



That project was difinitively inspired by seeing images of the old style victorian tanks and the closest i could get to it with todays available materials..  I looked into it for a while scavaging ebay and such, but these vintage tanks are very rare and if priceless. Also looked around for antique iron casted furniture parts i could  use for a DIY project to copy one. But also this is searching for a needle in a haistack in Europe. Europe iis completely luted, nothing to find without paying top dollar. I walked around with the stuppid idea to build me a brass Jules Vern style Captain Nemo tank with a riveted brass rim. I came to that idea at a scrapyard by stumbling over some old brass Portholes from an old fishing boat. Than front panel glas, sides glas and the backpanel brass with the bolted portholes in it to peek through.. Nowadays kits and coating could make such a project safe to use. But thinking about it, thats more for a marine tank and not fresh water planted, that wouldn't look right.. So i skipped it, i'm not into marine too dificult and too expensive. But some how a brass rimmed tank is still in the back of my mind.  One day i just might walk into an antique store and stumble over the ornaments pushing over the edge..


----------



## rebel (22 Apr 2018)

Boys is this the most OT topic ever??? Dose this thread need some sort of award??


----------



## Tim Harrison (22 Apr 2018)

Haha, maybe I should do my job and split the thread...but where exactly, and what should we call the new bit ?


----------



## zozo (22 Apr 2018)

Tim Harrison said:


> and what should we call the second bit



Babbling about...


----------



## Angus (22 Apr 2018)

Somehow i feel i am to blame for this derailment...


----------



## David Edwards (23 Apr 2018)

So which pH pen gets the nod!

Very interesting tangent.


----------

