# What should I be dosing?



## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Hi folks

I've been looking at this site for a couple of weeks now and have already picked up loads of information.

I need some help with my new tank, I'm confused about whether its low tech or not, I have Tropica specialised and Easycarbo but I'm not sure how much of each to add while the plants are settling in and the tank is maturing. I got a plant bundle from Plants Alive plus some extras.

I am getting grey algae on my hc and eleocharis, and its spread to other plants.

Ive used yoghurt for a DSM technique which I guess could still be affecting the tank.

I'm cycling with ammonia *runs for cover* so with all this information, what would you advise that I do to give this tank the best chance of success?


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

Stop adding ammonia?

Cheers,


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Why, exactly?

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

Because adding ammonia will not actually help to mature the tank any quicker and it kills a lot of the bacteria that you are trying to develop. There is a symbiotic relationship between plants and bacteria. Plants change the environment is the water and sediment, for example by pumping oxygen into the water and sediment to encourage the growth of certain bacterial species which produce products that the plant itself can use. Poisoning the tank with ammonia kills the bacteria and lowers the oxygen content of the water, fostering the development of anaerobic species that do not help the plant.

Bit and pieces of plant material will always be present and will decay, producing small amounts of ammonia that will then be used by the nitrifying bacteria. This is a more controlled and "natural" procedure without toxicity.

Additionally, when starting a tank, one of the best things you can do is very frequent and very large water changes. Plants appreciate clean water as this reduce the level of organic waste that they themselves produce, and which smothers them if not kept under control. This is a closed system with a very small water volume. It is not a lake cointaining millions of gallons of water, so it fouls very quickly.

Focus more on helping the plants to convert to underwater living. This is of critical importance. When you help the plants to survive, they in turn will take care of the rest of the tank. Feed lots of nutrients and lots of Easycarbo if that's what you want use. Keep the tank immaculately clean and keep the lighting at low intensity. The transition takes time and adding ammonia interrupts the sequence of events, which is counterproductive.

Cheers,


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

What percentage and frequency of water changes do you advocate? Will the grey algae kill off my plants?


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

When starting a tank you should do at least two 50% water changes per week. This should continue for 6-8 weeks.
When you do the water changes, make sure that you uncover the plants. This gives them a gulp of air which is effectively a gulp of CO2. Clean the surface of the leaves with your thumb and forefinger to remove the slime coat. That "bio-film" is an obstacle to the movement of critical gases and nutrient.




brumbird said:


> Will the grey algae kill off my plants?


This question indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of both algae and plants.
Algae occurs when plants are dying. It is not the other way around. In a planted tank algae are the top predators and when they sense a weakness in the plants they bloom in order to take advantage of the weakened prey.
So your algae is there BECAUSE your plants are dying. When you fix your plants health then they will be strong enough to resist the attacks of the algae, the algae will sense the conditions, and they will recede until the next opportunity.

That is the best way to think about algae. Poor health is the cause, algae is the effect.

If you can upload a photo of the damage we can assess more readily.
We need to know what the tank size is, how much light is being used, how much dosing is being used and how much liquid carbon or CO2 injection is being used.

Cheers,


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

I am a complete newbie in terms of planted tanks - my first tank only has 5 different plants in it and they are all extremely easy. 

Do you guys generally use photo bucket? I can't find an attachment button for pics.


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

Yes, you'll have to use Flikr or photobucket or whatever.

Having 5 different kinds of easy plants means nothing if you kill them.

Easy just means that the plant can survive at lower levels of CO2 than "hard" plants, but you still have to satisfy the basic requirements of nutrition.

Cheers,


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## Rob P (28 Feb 2014)

Photobucket works fine


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

Just copy the direct link for your photo on photo bucket click the image icon next to the smilies icon in your reply box on here. A pop up will appear paste the url from the direct link press insert, voila!


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## daizeUK (28 Feb 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> When starting a tank you should do at least two 50% water changes per week. This should continue for 6-8 weeks.


At what point can fish be added?
Would you recommend adding a small 'test' dose of ammonia (say 1ppm) to ensure that the tank is ready for fish before adding them?
I'm thinking especially of tanks filled with slow-growing plants such as fern, anubias and crypts that might take longer to mature.


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## Jafooli (28 Feb 2014)

Interesting because I just changed my girlfriends gravel in a 30 litre tank, I removed everything, wiped everything down to remove all algae etc. Chucked away all her old plants, wood. 
I put her old filter in a bucket of water, it took me around 3-4 hours. The water was pretty clear once done, so I returned her 3 otto's and the one cherry shrimp we have. He was a bit on deaths door for the first 24 hours, but it was probably the massive difference in water parameters. Anyway all otto's were grazing on the glass. I have no idea what they were grazing on I scrubbed it all. Anyway since then the tank has had 1 Ammonia, it don't go up or down. I know the test kits are wrong, so I don't care they would be dead by now if it were actually 1ppm?. So I can hopefully say I kept my filter alive, and its converting the ammonia quick enough before it reaches a high concentration, along side the many plants I have in there. For some reason I tend to find plants grow better when setting up a new tank. 

There was nothing I could of done with the fish, but I tried my best to keep them alive and it worked. I did this as-well when I took down my 90 litre and got my 200 litre, my tank was heavily stocked, I just used all the biomax from my old filter, old plants, how ever I did water changes more frequent as there was a bigger investment in fish in this tank... all were fine, and ammonia never went above 0.25, even then fish showed no signs of stress. 

Not sure how long it would take until its safe to add fish when a tank is brand new, the first time I got my girlfriends tank I just used fish food method, until my test kit read Ammonia, I have no idea what it actually was reading, but the odd thing is it took for ages , her Ammonia would never go down.. But when I did a large water change, and did the flake food again. The test kit never read Ammonia, got some fish etc, all was fine. So god knows what the Ammonia kits are reading, I have no idea what I would do now if I was start a tank again tomorrow, as you cant trust the kits =\ I guess just put some plants in etc and leave it for 2-3 weeks, then buy a small amount of fish and do frequent water changes and light feeding 3x a week or something... one things for sure I won't be adding pure Ammonia lol.


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## Mike Hughes (28 Feb 2014)

Sounds like expired test kit 

Just get a palin kit


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

daizeUK said:


> At what point can fish be added?
> Would you recommend adding a small 'test' dose of ammonia (say 1ppm) to ensure that the tank is ready for fish before adding them?
> I'm thinking especially of tanks filled with slow-growing plants such as fern, anubias and crypts that might take longer to mature.


NO. It's automatic. 6-8 weeks. That's all. isn't that simple? Use the 6-8 week to figure out CO2. Then get on with it.

Cheers,


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

I know for sure that I would rather take the time to have a healthy tank full of plants learning what they need in terms of lighting  ferts co2 and regular water changes, clean filter etc.  and finally adding fish after those few weeks, than look at a tank of 'goo' sitting in my living room and getting all in a tiz about results from a kit.


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

And me! I'm pasting the above link into the pop up box but all I'm seeing is a blue box with a white question mark in it (very avant garde arrangement for a planted tank... )


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## John S (28 Feb 2014)

Is this the picture you are trying to show?


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Yes thank you John, I am having a spot of bother with my ailing Nexus, it doesn't like copying things


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)




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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Yeeeehah I've finally got it thanks Jafooli and John  Have another pic of my ailing greenery.


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Other info which ceg said would be helpful:

Tank is 160l, lighting is one aqua glo bulb, one sun glo bulb, I'm not home at the mo so can only go by what the write up of the tank deal says, I think they are 30W. I've had the lights on a lot - sometimes in excess of 15 hours a day as I forget to switch it off (two kids under 3 kind of take control of my brain, need to get a timer switch) I have Easycarbo which I've been dosing 2.5ml per day and Tropica Special which I've squirted twice a day. 

This is the whole tank:



And here is my original tank with 5 plants, no tech, very basic but I like it for a first go at a fish tank:


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## ceg4048 (28 Feb 2014)

I have no idea what algal species that is. It could be Rhizoclonium or could be Diatomic. If it's Rhizo then this means low CO2 and low nutrition so you'll need to add more CO2/liquid carbon and more nutrients straight away.

Cheers,


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## discusdan (28 Feb 2014)

"lights on for 15 hours a day"

Wowzers! Get your self a socket timer quick and reduce the lighting period to 5-6 hours max.


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Could it be fungal? The redmoor appears to have a similar thing on it. I wondered whether it could be debris from the redmoor as tge flow takes stuff into that area, but its definitely growing on the plants.


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

Yes, thats a long time the lights are on for.
What filter do you have on your tank brumbird?


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## James O (28 Feb 2014)

I'd get a timer and set it for 6-8 hrs


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Fern - I've got a Fluval U4 set on the underwater spray bar mode (not sure what the proper name is but its like a vertical spray)

I will definitely go and get a timer tomorrow 

I think the grey stuff is simply coming off the red moor root, it comes off really easily (using a turkey baster to slurp it up)


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

While that is a great little filter, it's just not powerful enough to turn over the water in your tank for a good flow, I think you will have to add another filter, or at least a powerhead keep that one by all means, it will certainly help to distribute flow


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

I've got two Marina s20s but they seem really sluggish - that's why I got the u4! Will Google power head, I don't really know what they are.


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

something like this for example


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## harryH (28 Feb 2014)

brumbird said:


> I've got two Marina s20s but they seem really sluggish - that's why I got the u4! Will Google power head, I don't really know what they are.



Hi Brumbird, As you have said you don't know what a power head is,.. a power head is just a pump. It's exactly the same as your present filters top bit, the part that houses the motor and the impeller without the filter medium housing.
The picture by Fern, above is of a Koralia power head and as you can see it's just a grill type housing with an impeller in it. You just place it in your tank and switch it on and all it does is pump the water around.

As Fern has said, your present filter, while a good one is too small to move enough water around your tank. The idea is to try and turn over your water 10 times in the hour so, as you have 160 litres you should try to pump the water through at 1600 litres per hour. The idea is to have enough flow around the tank to distribute your fertilisers and CO2 to every part of the aquarium. Koralia pumps are favoured and are very efficient at moving water but any power head with a rating of over 1000 lph would be a great boost to your tank when run alongside your present filter.

Hope I'm not telling you what you already know and that I have been of some help,

Harry.


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

Thanks so much both! That pump looks like a bit of a food processor, I have shrimp so would have to proof any equipment to make it safe.

My other question is, wouldn't that kind of flow turn my tank into a washing machine? Where are the fish supposed to rest?


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

brumbird said:


> I have shrimp


You have shrimp in the tank you are 'cycling' with ammonia?


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)

No of course not but they will be moving into this tank once its ready.


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## Fern (28 Feb 2014)

brumbird said:


> No of course not


I knew that, just checking


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## brumbird (28 Feb 2014)




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## harryH (28 Feb 2014)

brumbird said:


> My other question is, wouldn't that kind of flow turn my tank into a washing machine?



As a guide, my present aquarium is 80 litres, half size of yours. I have an external canister rated at 600 lph and a Koralia power head rated at 900 lph. The power head is high near the water surface on the back wall and the external filter has a spray bar that sits below the Koralia lower down. There is no 'washing machine' effect but plants are gently waving in every corner. There is lots to research on this site about water movement.

I also have shrimp and some tiny babies recently hatched and they have not been troubled by the power head but I have read other posts where people have shown concern.
If it worries you you could always use a different one. There are many that take water in at the bottom and a shrimp guard could be fitted.
Harry
Edit: You can turn off any power head at night and just leave filter running. This will allow fish to rest if you wish.


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## Fern (1 Mar 2014)

Brumbird, you could have a think about starting up a journal, would consolidate your questions 
And the whole thing about you adding ammonia, please reconsider.
With some input from the great people on here, it will be possible to  turn your tank around, and who knows, you may be pleasantly suprised. 
After all, you have nothing to loose, and hopefully everything to gain


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

I will definitely think about a journal, feel like too much of a novice to be putting my pics up.next to the likes of some of the others though 

I understand why you want me to stop using ammonia, up to a point. I have taken on board all the info I've received so far in response to my questions. I can see that oxygen is of huge importance to growing the whole ecology that is required for a healthy tank.

What i dont get is why the naturally released ammonia route is being offered as a better solution to providing a source of ammonia, seeing as it is this very process that exerts an increased BOD on the system (via heterotrophic bacteria processing waste) and sucking the oxygen out of the tank.

To my.mind there must be a middle ground whereby you keep the tank clean and replenish water regularly, but still add the ammonia in tiny doses, in a controlled fashion which would have no effect on BOD in the way that tthe 'natural' route does.

I know you are asking me to slow down regarding the addition of fish, im not in any rush and will most likely be waiting 6 weeks anyway, but my hobby is about the fish first, all the tech involved in growing high maintenance plants is just not for me, its different for different people I guess


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## John S (1 Mar 2014)

brumbird said:


> I will definitely think about a journal, feel like too much of a novice to be putting my pics up.next to the likes of some of the others though



Don't feel like that Brumbird, although I did when I first joined.

There are some stunning tanks on here  but there are also plenty of journals where people have been in similar situations to yourself and those tanks have been turned around with help from the community here. 

With the right plant choice and set up you can still have a low maintenance tank to show off your fish.


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## Andy D (1 Mar 2014)

brumbird said:


> I will definitely think about a journal, feel like too much of a novice to be putting my pics up.next to the likes of some of the others though



It will be worth it. We have all got to start somewhere right? I am in the same position in trying to get to grips with doing a decent planted tank. Have a look at Rob P's journal. He was in a very similar position and look how he is doing now.



brumbird said:


> What i dont get is why the naturally released ammonia route is being offered as a better solution to providing a source of ammonia, seeing as it is this very process that exerts an increased BOD on the system (via heterotrophic bacteria processing waste) and sucking the oxygen out of the tank.



As Clive explained to me we are trying to create a mature and stable environment. This takes 6-8 weeks. There is no way to speed this up as it takes time for all of the necessary bacteria populations to grow. The problem we have (following the programming from The Matrix  ) is that we assume that once our tanks are able to process ammonia and nitrite in 12 hours we consider the tank to be cycled and ready for fish. A cycled tank is not the same as a mature tank.

If we let the process occur naturally without adding ammonia then ALL (so not just those processing ammonia and nitrite) of the necessary bacteria/organisms needed for a mature and stable tank would have grown to sufficient numbers. 

If we add ammonia we typically dose to between 1ppm and 4ppm and all in one hit. In terms of toxicity levels this is massive. Whilst we can agree that the bacteria that process ammonia and nitrite still develop, that level of ammonia kills the other bacteria/organisms that go towards creating a mature environment. Therefore once we consider a tank to be cycled it is far from mature and stable. 

I suppose you could dose really low levels of ammonia but this would still not be necessary in a planted tank (not sure about a fully non-planted tank mind you, what do the bacteria feed on?) for a few reasons. First of all it would be very hard to measure and get the dose right. Secondly, the tank is being hit with ammonia in big dose whereas this would happen over time as a plant leaf etc decays. Thirdly if we add ammonia on top of the natural supply we are back up to high toxicity levels again.

How often do we read about fish losses on PFK after a fishless cycle and no-one can explain why? Compare that to this forum.

(Ps, this all assume my understanding is correct so I hope to be corrected if I am wrong)


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

Thank you for the supportive words - maybe I will do a journal - I do feel that my understanding will come on much quicker by asking questions on this forum.

I understand what you are saying Andy, but I still want to know what these other crucial bacteria are, and why so many tanks do absolutely fine (like mine did) when only cycled but not mature.

I'm sorry if it frustrates anyone that I talk about measurable factors but there is quite a lot of precise science quoted on this forum, yet when it comes to 'maturing' a tank it suddenly seems to become vague and magical. 6-8 weeks, regardless of substrate, planting density, water volume, plant growth, plant death/decay. Surely the addition of huge amounts of CO2 affects the survival anything aerobic??

And then when the 6-8 weeks is up - what stocking level is advised?

I definitely need a journal for all these questions


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## harryH (1 Mar 2014)

Hi Brumbird,

Well! someone like you with all your questions (very sensible ones may I add) can't fail to succeed

 This is one great site .. a fountain of knowledge and has made even an old bloke like me realise just how much we are all still learning. I can honestly say the planted tank hobby is almost unrecognisable from what it was 25 years or so ago, having new methods, new plants, modern equipment. Just stick at it, keep asking the question and enjoy. We are all learning and all helping each other.


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

Thank you Harry, I find this stuff absolutely fascinating. 

If its anything like PFK then I'm sure my questions have been asked before - if anyone could direct me to any good threads I would be grateful - my searches keep going off on tangents as I click on something, it turns out not to be relevant to new tanks but I get engrossed and lose another half an hour


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## ceg4048 (1 Mar 2014)

brumbird said:


> there is quite a lot of precise science quoted on this forum, yet when it comes to 'maturing' a tank it suddenly seems to become vague and magical.


That's because we cannot possibly measure all the factors. For example do you have a microscope? If you do, can you then, visually or by other methods identify all the thousands of bacterial species and calculate their relative populations? We are not even capable of measuring their chemical byproducts accurately or consistently.

However, we have loads of empirical data that indicate when the tank is cycled, and from that data we can determine when there are sufficient populations of the microorganism available. Why is that considered vague or magical? You put water in a bucket anywhere in the world and the process of bacterial colonization begins, follows a mathematical progression and concludes. You measure how long that occurs and consistently it takes 6-8 weeks. I don't see anything vague about that.



brumbird said:


> Surely the addition of huge amounts of CO2 affects the survival anything aerobic??


No. This is another illusion of The Matrix. That's because people never bother to study the fundamental principles of gases in solution. Gases are independent. They are free agents. The presence of any gas in any solvent has no bearing on the availability of any other gas dissolved in that solvent. Aerobic organisms always have access to Oxygen if it is dissolved in the water. It doesn't matter how much CO2 is also dissolved at the same time. CO2 cannot displace O2. Each gas has it's own solubility and no other gas can affect that solubility. The solubility and availability of a gas is only ever a function of temperature, pressure and salinity.




brumbird said:


> And then when the 6-8 weeks is up - what stocking level is advised?


Do the sensible thing and add the inhabitants a few at a time. Even so, having plants in the tank means that you can do the non-sensible thing and add more than a few at the same time. Plants feed on NH3/NH4. Additionally a mature tank that has been sitting around for 6-8 weeks also has loads of organisms that process the toxicants. The water change frequency, which should be adhered to is an added level of safety. I don't see a problem here. I and many others follow this procedure all the time and we don't have any difficulties, because it's a consistent natural process. 

Cheers,


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## daizeUK (1 Mar 2014)

Thanks to all for an interesting discussion.

How do you determine whether a lightly planted tank has enough plants to mature naturally in this way?  Would the same principles work for yeast CO2, liquid carbon or non-CO2 tanks?


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## harryH (1 Mar 2014)

daizeUK said:


> Would the same principles work for yeast CO2, liquid carbon or non-CO2 tanks?



Yes any tank works on this principle. I have always cycled my tanks without fish or chemicals and haven't used a test kit for years. It's so easy, just set up your tank place in the plants and leave it. You will need to do a water change once or twice a week then after 6 to 8 weeks just start adding your livestock, a few each week.

I usually try to cover at least 80% of the substrate with plants as this was the way I was taught years ago. It's still good practice to plant heavily with fast growing plants.

Harry


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## Fern (1 Mar 2014)

harryH said:


> just set up your tank place in the plants and leave it


Don't forget to feed them 

Fast growing plants are good to start off with, you can replace them for other more choice plants later if you wish


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

ceg4048 said:


> That's because we cannot possibly measure all the factors. For example do you have a microscope? If you do, can you then, visually or by other methods identify all the thousands of bacterial species and calculate their relative populations? We are not even capable of measuring their chemical byproducts accurately or consistently.
> 
> However, we have loads of empirical data that indicate when the tank is cycled, and from that data we can determine when there are sufficient populations of the microorganism available. Why is that considered vague or magical? You put water in a bucket anywhere in the world and the process of bacterial colonization begins, follows a mathematical progression and concludes. You measure how long that occurs and consistently it takes 6-8 weeks. I don't see anything vague about that.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. What is the empirical data we have to confirm a tank is cycled and ready for fish?What is measured?

With respect, you say that these bacteria are vital, but you don't know what they are... you suggest that the proof is in the fact that your fish don't die, but I could use the same evidence to support my own hypothesis that cycling g with ammonia creates a healthy tank, based on the numerous tanks which have thrived after ammonia cycling, versus those we see day in day out which are not and go wrong. My explanation for why your fish don't die after using the natural method is that you change enough water to keep the toxins below deadly levels.

With regard to CO2 I am not suggesting their is an interaction with O2  but I thought that drop checkers were used to stop you giving your fish CO2 poisoning, and wanted to confirm whether bacteria could be poisoned by am excess of CO2?

I just haven't read anything empirically convincing (yet) that supports the idea that any/all levels of planting would provide sufficient resources to grow sufficient quantities of bacteria to support the conversion of fish waste. How much stocking is 'sensible' How do you measure what is sensible? Cm of fish per gallon of water?


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

Also, you mention that a bucket of water will become colonised with bacteria. Giving hat the.purpose of cycling/maturation for a fish keeper is to ensure fish waste can be rendered harmless to fish, and dissolved oxygen appears to be a limiting factor for bacterial growth, arent you giving the nitrifyers a leg up by providing a food source for them (ammonia) whilst removing the food source of other heterotrophs (dead matter) which will compete for oxygen? The natural method just seems to allow the decomposers take over and prohibit nitrifyers from growing. 

Sorry this is all coming out as a stream of consciousness - got to get my post in while the kids are content (its all usually gone pear shaped by 4pm)


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## daizeUK (1 Mar 2014)

harryH said:


> I usually try to cover at least 80% of the substrate with plants as this was the way I was taught years ago. It's still good practice to plant heavily with fast growing plants.
> 
> Harry



This is the advice I keep seeing: that it is best to use fast-growing plants when starting a tank.  That's why I was concerned that a tank planted with slow-growing plants would not be able to absorb the NH4 fast enough.  But Clive says the 6-8 week method will work even for slow-growing plants.  I'm interested because I'm planning on starting a 35L planted mostly with crypts.  I just can't imagine this kind of tank will be able to handle the same bioload as a tank with fast-growing plants in the same timeframe.


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## Rob P (1 Mar 2014)

brumbird said:


> versus those we see day in day out which are not and go wrong.



I think the ones we see daily on PFK that go wrong are almost always, no - always, the ones where fish have been added to a new system within days, not weeks...


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

Do you feel that we see problems where people have fishlessly cycled correctly (including a qualifying week so as to ensure the results are stable)?


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## Rob P (1 Mar 2014)

brumbird said:


> Do you feel that we see problems where people have fishlessly cycled correctly (including a qualifying week so as to ensure the results are stable)?



We see a lot of issues with dying plants and algae!!  LOL


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

So you think the ammonia method is more for the fish keeper than the planted tank enthusiast?


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## Fern (1 Mar 2014)

Brumbird, I know you want the information  (and good on you!, but meh it mostly goes over my head!)  to understand the scientific data regarding bacterial colonies and microorganism etc on why it's beneficial to mature a tank this way rather than using ammonia, but for me, all I needed to do was look around here and _know_ that it works! 
I'd been reading up on this site for a quite a while before I joined, put all that reading into practice, had the confidence to have a try and guess what? I have three successful aquariums, (albeit a million miles away from the amazing aquascapes people have on here) they are healthy, thriving and not one dead fish! 
It is all a matter of personal preference of course, it's your aquarium, but at the end of the day, why add ammonia when _you don't need to_ !


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## brumbird (1 Mar 2014)

I know Fern  I see lots of successful tanks that have been cycled too, this is why I am after the detail. If its any consolation I did think twice about dosing today (first time I've tested for ammonia in a few days) and it was at zero. I've re-dosed at a much lower 1ish ppm in hope of finding some middle ground. I've also turned on the venturi in the hope that this will help O2 levels.


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## dw1305 (2 Mar 2014)

Hi all,


> What is the empirical data we have to confirm a tank is cycled and ready for fish?


There isn't any empirical data really, even with a lab full of analytical equipment and a scientists who can use it, access to a microbiologist and a huge amount of "man" hours you would struggle to quantify whether a tank is cycled or not. 

Because of the difficulties of measuring these parameters, even the water companies with £millions of kit, the financial imperatives of their share holders and a tight regulatory framework  will use a "5 day BOD" test to estimate water quality, and even after 5 days it is only an estimate. They aren't doing this because they enjoy it, they are doing it because there isn't a cheaper alternative.  





> I did think twice about dosing today (first time I've tested for ammonia in a few days) and it was at zero. I've re-dosed at a much lower 1ish ppm in hope of finding some middle ground.


When people say "_I've got 1ppm ammonia, nitrate etc" _you don't really know what that value is, or even whether the kit has really registered the parameter they are interested in at all. 

I don't see any problem with you adding ammonia to your tank, but because it has a high plant mass and lots of oxygen. The ammonia is still toxic, but assuming that you have some source of carbonates and sufficient oxygen, the large plant mass (and associated microbial community) will reduce ammonia levels fairly rapidly, it has nothing to do with cycling. 


> I see lots of successful tanks that have been cycled too


 There definitely are some, if you are relying on filter bacteria alone for biological filtration. Personally I've never kept an un-planted tank or added ammonia, and I never will, because plants/microbe systems are simple, effective and robust. 

Even though I've never added ammonia to a tank, that is sort of how I came back to fish keeping. After working on "landfill leachate" (basically just very polluted water, with a huge range of pollutants), I realized that a lot of my problems as a fish keeper in my earlier incarnation was because I'd failed to maintain water quality. This time it has been a lot better (certainly for the fish). 

Cheers Darrel


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## brumbird (2 Mar 2014)

Thank you for your reply Darrel, I appreciate your input. I use a calculation based on the ammonia% and tank volume to ddose ammonia as even as a kit user I know they can only give a ball park idea of what is going on (the colour differences are minute and I struggle to read differences, but can observe relative changes


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## brumbird (2 Mar 2014)

Thank you for your reply Darrel, I appreciate your input. I use a calculation based on the ammonia% and tank volume to ddose ammonia as even as a kit user I know they can only give a ball park idea of what is going on (the colour differences are minute and I struggle to read differences, but can observe relative changes.


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## harryH (2 Mar 2014)

dw1305 said:


> I realized that a lot of my problems as a fish keeper in my earlier incarnation was because I'd failed to maintain water quality. This time it has been a lot better (certainly for the fish).



Hi Darrel, 
This kind of goes along with an old saying that's long been around in fish keeping. I remember an old guy telling me 30 years ago ( could be 40 yrs) " You don't need to look after the fish, look after the water lad" Said in a broad Yorkshire accent it sounded like good advice and stuck with me over the years.


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## brumbird (5 Mar 2014)

Ive got my hands on a copy of Walstads book so hope to educate myself over the next few days 

Ive also looked at a few science papers about the impact of elevated CO2 on bacteria and cant quite figure it out!  There is one about marine bacteria which suggests that elevated CO2 makes the Bacteria more prolific, whereas there are a lot of studies about how CO2 inhibits bacterial growth (in dry conditions though) dpnt know where that leaves the fresh water side of things.

I am thinking of trying a walstad method on my little tank once the fauna have moved into the big one. Has anyone tried it with just window light?


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## Fern (5 Mar 2014)

Brumbird, try asking over on the EI natural and low tech section 

El Natural &amp; Low Tech | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## brumbird (5 Mar 2014)

Thanks so much for the link


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