# Question Gh and Kh planted aquarium



## Nikola (14 May 2020)

Hi all, 
Until recently I was thinking that my aquarium water Gh is 8, I had some bad test strips. 
Now I bought Gh and Kh drop tests. 
Gh is 14 dGh
Kh is 11 dKh

Is this bad for plants? 
I have order reverse osmosis filter, it will come on Monday I hope. 

Tomorrow I will get Blyxa Japonica plant, and was reading that maximum preferred Gh for this plant is 8. 

My question is will this plant be okay until I drop down Gh with RO water? I will need 2 weeks to lower it to avoid harming fishes. 


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## ceg4048 (14 May 2020)

Hi,
    Neither fish nor the majority of plants care much about GH/KH. There are a few plants that are possibly affected by high KH but Blyxa is not one of those.  Some plants are actually experts at taking advantage of high KH under stressful conditions of low CO2.
Collecting and storing RO water is a real pain and it really isn't necessary unless you intend to breed some specific types of soft water fish.

Cheers,


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## Nikola (14 May 2020)

Thanks [mention]ceg4048 [/mention] 

Now I’m thinking to cancel the order for reverse osmosis. 
But if I will have better results maybe with using it I wouldn’t mind to do it. 
I’m already always storing my tap water at least two days with prime before I put it in aquarium. 

Can u tell me does EI dosing have influence on raising Gh and Kh? 

Now I have a little bit problems with my plants, have some hair algae and diatoms.
I have turned down light and still working on getting good constant co2 levels. 


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## ceg4048 (14 May 2020)

Nikola said:


> Now I’m thinking to cancel the order for reverse osmosis.
> But if I will have better results maybe with using it I wouldn’t mind to do it.
> I’m already always storing my tap water at least two days with prime before I put it in aquarium.
> 
> ...


Well it's important to try different things, if for no other reason but to learn the answer to the question for yourself. Who knows? maybe some of your fish might breed in the tank. I actually experienced that and so it was worth the trouble, but what I learned was that there were more important things to worry about and that soft water by itself did not solve serious problems in the tank.

It could also be that there are toxins in your water supply. RO will eliminate any toxins or bacteria from your source water. So if you don't mind the trouble then absolute, try it.

Just for your information, Prime and the similar products works instantly, so there really is no need to store tap water.

In some cities, tap water is rich in CO2 and so water fresh from the tap is better at water change time than having it sit for two days where the CO2 will be evaporated.

Hair algae is cause by poor CO2, and this has nothing to do with KH or GH. You must analyze and determine why there is poor CO2 and fix the cause. Diatoms also can be cause by poor CO2, poor flow and excessive lighting, especially when the tank is new.

EI can raise the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). There is an impact of KH because those ions being added result in higher KH, but I say again that EI is not related to the problems in the tank. If you go to the Tutorial section and read the EI article you will see photos of the tank that I dosed 3 times to 5 time the standard EI values. I did this to demonstrate that the nutrients had only positive effects. The GH of that tank was higher 25 and the KH was also above 20. Again, I did this intentionally to demonstrate that high KH and high GH has nothing to do with poor plant health.

Cheers,


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## jaypeecee (14 May 2020)

ceg4048 said:


> Hair algae is cause by poor CO2, and this has nothing to do with KH or GH. You must analyze and determine why there is poor CO2 and fix the cause. Diatoms also can be cause by poor CO2...



Hi @ceg4048 

What exactly do you mean by "poor CO2"? Do you mean the CO2 concentration is below a specific figure and, if so, what is that figure? Or, is it that the CO2 concentration is fluctuating too much and what would you consider to be 'too much'?

I would value your feedback.

JPC


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## Nikola (14 May 2020)

ceg4048 said:


> Well it's important to try different things, if for no other reason but to learn the answer to the question for yourself. Who knows? maybe some of your fish might breed in the tank. I actually experienced that and so it was worth the trouble, but what I learned was that there were more important things to worry about and that soft water by itself did not solve serious problems in the tank.
> 
> It could also be that there are toxins in your water supply. RO will eliminate any toxins or bacteria from your source water. So if you don't mind the trouble then absolute, try it.
> 
> ...



I know that prime does instant job, but was reading that it bonds metals for two days. For that reason I’m waiting for two days that it will not bond micro nutrients, Am I wrong in this? 

About tap water co2, I’m always doing water change after photo period mainly to not disturb co2 levels while the plants are using it. 

I think I’m getting close to have good co2 levels, and I raised flow throw whole aquarium. During the weekend I will adjust it little bit more with ph pen measuring. 

What is confusing for me is that I have diatoms and hair algae mainly in high flow areas. But still those areas are with my newly planted Monte Carlo which is doing transition now.

Maybe those dying leaves from it cause diatoms? I think it’s really struggling there, almost three weeks past since I planted it, it started with new leaves but my red eye tetras ate them. 
So I started feeding them with more vegetarian based food and for now they left it alone, it’s gettin better. 

Thanks for your advices, I was reading a lot from u about Co2 here on forum, and I’m implementing it in my skills. 


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## Witcher (14 May 2020)

ceg4048 said:


> I dosed 3 times to 5 time the standard EI values


For how long?
And what exact amounts of NPK and Fe/micro?


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## ceg4048 (15 May 2020)

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @ceg4048
> 
> What exactly do you mean by "poor CO2"? Do you mean the CO2 concentration is below a specific figure and, if so, what is that figure? Or, is it that the CO2 concentration is fluctuating too much and what would you consider to be 'too much'?
> 
> ...


Hi JPC,
               The expression "poor CO2" refers to the lack of, or reduced ability of a plant to uptake sufficient quantities of the gas.
Therefore, poor CO2 can occur in the presence of high localized dissolved concentrations of the gas, or it can occur with low concentrations, or in any combination thereof.

Poor CO2 can also occur inside the plant due to an inefficient or ineffective transport mechanism within the leaf. CO2 has to be transported from outside the leaf to inside the leaf. Then, it has to be transported to the reaction chambers within the leaf in order to be used in the chemical reactions which turn it into sugar. The internal transport mechanism is built around the movement of a complex molecule called RuBisCO, which is an abbreviation for the rather awkward proper name, Ribulose-1,5-bisphosphate carboxylase/oxygenase.

Rubisco is inefficient enzyme even under ideal conditions and is rendered catastrophically ineffective when the leaf is not able to procure sufficient quantities from the water column. 

Dissolved gasses move very slowly in water, so it's possible to be pumping in large volumes but yet, not to be delivering the gas to the leaf due to inefficient flow or due to blockage by hardscape or by other leaves.

The reverse can also occur where the amount of gas being injected is relatively low but the distribution of the water is efficient which delivers the gas to the leaf in sufficient quantities.

The worst of these types of cases is where the flow distribution scheme is poorly implemented, the injection rate is low and the demand for CO2 is high due to excessive lighting.

Fluctuations in the delivery of the gas is a more complicated problem. The production of Rubisco is very expensive for the plant. The production rate is controlled by the amount of light as well as the amount of CO2 crossing over from the water through the cell walls. If the plant senses a high traffic of CO2 then it actually reduces the production rate of Rubisco. Under low CO2 availability, the plant increases the production of Rubisco in order to scavenge as much CO2 as possible. So for example, in a low tech tank, the plants growing there have a higher average Rubisco concentration than the plants growing in a CO2 injected tank.

This works fine for the plants in the high tech tank as they do not need to be efficient at CO2 uptake due to high availability. If the availability decreases however then these plants must suddenly increase the Rubisco production to account for the loss of gas availability. During the time it takes to increase production the plant will suffer a CO2 shortfall since the density of Rubisco is low. It requires  almost two weeks to set a new Rubisco production rate so the plant suffers for a while. Now imagine the chaos within the plant if the CO2 levels are constantly changing.

There are so many combinations of these factors that it's easier to sum it all up with the single expression "poor CO2".

Cheers,


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## jaypeecee (15 May 2020)

ceg4048 said:


> There are so many combinations of these factors that it's easier to sum it all up with the single expression "poor CO2".



Hi @ceg4048 

Wonderful, comprehensive reply! That's the kind of detail that I really appreciate. And, now, I can understand why you compressed it to "poor CO2"!

Thanks.

JPC


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## ceg4048 (15 May 2020)

Nikola said:


> I know that prime does instant job, but was reading that it bonds metals for two days. For that reason I’m waiting for two days that it will not bond micro nutrients, Am I wrong in this?


Hi,
    Yes, sorry, that's wrong. The micronutrient metals are normally "chelated", which means they are chemically bonded to other compounds. Even so, the reason the metals are called "micro" nutrients is because the plant only needs microscopic amounts.
You never have to worry about Prime interfering or activated carbon interfering with micronutrients. Please, simplify your life in this regard. The more complicated you make it, the less enjoyable it is.



Nikola said:


> About tap water co2, I’m always doing water change after photo period mainly to not disturb co2 levels while the plants are using it.


Yes, I understand this reasoning, however, if you do the water change before the light comes on, or even during the day then you actually will be giving the plants more CO2. When you remove the water the plants are exposed to air, which has lots of CO2. The leaves will dry out slightly but this packs a lot of the gas inside the plants almost like filling your car's fuel tank with petrol. In addition, if your tap water has CO2 then this is also extra CO2.



Nikola said:


> What is confusing for me is that I have diatoms and hair algae mainly in high flow areas. But still those areas are with my newly planted Monte Carlo which is doing transition now.


Diatoms are almost unavoidable if this is a newly setup tank. Sometimes the high flow areas can have too much flow. It depends on your distribution scheme. Are those plants in the high flow moving gently, or are they moving violently like a flag?



Nikola said:


> Maybe those dying leaves from it cause diatoms? I think it’s really struggling there, almost three weeks past since I planted it, it started with new leaves but my red eye tetras ate them.
> So I started feeding them with more vegetarian based food and for now they left it alone, it’s gettin better.


It could also be that you have a bit too much light. If you are doing a lot of water changes then I assume you are also wiping and removing any organic matter such as old or dead leaves? If you avoid excessive light then the diatoms should go away in a few weeks.

Also remember that plants and fish need oxygen at night so some of the leaves could be suffering hypoxia. If you have a pump and airstone then try using it when the CO2 and lights are turned off.

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (15 May 2020)

Witcher said:


> For how long?
> And what exact amounts of NPK and Fe/micro?


Hi,
    I think that was for about 3 years, then I had to move house. 

Well, exact amounts would be  3X to 5X the amounts listed in the article for a 600L tank. 
So the baseline dosages at tank startup  were 1.5 teaspoon KNO3 3X per week, 0.5 teaspoon KH2PO4 3X per week and 0.5 teaspoon Traces 2X per week.

Then I ramped up a few months later to 3 teaspoons KNO3 3X per week, 1.5 teaspoon KH2PO4 3X per week and 1.5 teaspoons Traces 2X per week.

After about a year I then went to 8 teaspoons KNO3 3X per week,  2.5 teaspoons KH2PO4 3X per week and 2.5 teaspoons Traces 2X per week. 

I did that for about 6 months but it became ridiculously expensive so I went back to a more sane 2 teaspoons KNO3 3X per week, 1 teaspoon KH2PO4 3X per week and 1 teaspoon Traces 2X per week. It was just easier to count whole teaspoons.

Cheers,


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## Nikola (15 May 2020)

ceg4048 said:


> Yes, sorry, that's wrong. The micronutrient metals are normally "chelated", which means they are chemically bonded to other compounds. Even so, the reason the metals are called "micro" nutrients is because the plant only needs microscopic amounts.
> You never have to worry about Prime interfering or activated carbon interfering with micronutrients. Please, simplify your life in this regard. The more complicated you make it, the less enjoyable it is.


Hi @ceg4048 
This sounds good, I'm glad for that, I will save my self a lot off time in the future.



ceg4048 said:


> Yes, I understand this reasoning, however, if you do the water change before the light comes on, or even during the day then you actually will be giving the plants more CO2. When you remove the water the plants are exposed to air, which has lots of CO2. The leaves will dry out slightly but this packs a lot of the gas inside the plants almost like filling your car's fuel tank with petrol. In addition, if your tap water has CO2 then this is also extra CO2.


Hmm, this sounds interesting. Gave me an idea to make automatic high and low tide during the day, then that would give them nice boost.
My tap water doesn't have CO2, I was testing it. But wouldn't changing the water during the day cause fluctuating off CO2 levels and then some algae?



ceg4048 said:


> Diatoms are almost unavoidable if this is a newly setup tank. Sometimes the high flow areas can have too much flow. It depends on your distribution scheme. Are those plants in the high flow moving gently, or are they moving violently like a flag?



Yeah it is a new tank, or maybe not so new any more,  2 months. 
Well, they are not moving like a flag for sure, but still not so gently. I've got today glass Lily Pipe so I will play with this little bit more. 
And got my Blyxa today also  



ceg4048 said:


> It could also be that you have a bit too much light. If you are doing a lot of water changes then I assume you are also wiping and removing any organic matter such as old or dead leaves? If you avoid excessive light then the diatoms should go away in a few weeks.



I have a little bit stronger light.
My dimensions off aquarium are 80cm length, 35cm width and 40cm height. And the light is led  80cm, 50W 7200Lumen, 8000Kelvin. It has a dimmer, 7 levels.
I'm holding it on 5th level now, if I put it on 4th it seams weak, I don't know how to be sure in this?
I'm wiping everything, cleaning everywhere. Old or dead leaves I'm removing when ever I spot them, but Monte Carlo I cannot touch because it is so gentle and I will rip it out from the substrate if try that, for now I'm only stirring up the water around it when vacuuming. I have purigen in filter, hope it helps with those. 



ceg4048 said:


> Also remember that plants and fish need oxygen at night so some of the leaves could be suffering hypoxia. If you have a pump and airstone then try using it when the CO2 and lights are turned off.


Yes i knew that, I'm using it from the beginning.

I'm going trough all kind off trouble now, but I made a goal to my self that I will have healthy planted aquarium.

Cheers


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