# Proposed lighting in an 8ft tank.



## sanj (12 Mar 2010)

OK, I am looking to start a project with a tank dimensions: 96"x36"x28"h

if any of you have been to the Green Machine, well it is fairly similar to the middle display tank. Well I have been considering lighting options, costs, practicality, aesthetics etc. I currenly use T5 D-D ballasts (432w) on my existing set up 96x24x24. but this is a closed top tank and is against a wall, wheras the new tank will be a room divider and open top.

I was thinking along the lines of using the Arcadia Series 4 which is 60" units with 3x150w HQI and 2x 80w T5.

It would be neat and tidy, one wire, not in the way as it would rest on acrylic props about 10-12" from the water surface. I was going to also use my existing  6 tmc led strips running along the back and front. However this is alot of combined wattage.

I was wondering if this photo period schedule would work well? 

LEDs (all 72 w) gradually come on: 14:00, full on from 15:00 to 23:00 then fade off to off by 00:00  ~9hrs of full led
T5 160w on: 15:00 to 23:00  8hrs
HQI 350w on: 18:00 to 22:00 4hrs

I am just wondering if the HQI period is enough and also when they are off the light provided by the T5 and led is pretty low, granted the wpg does not really follow in large tanks. Part of the consideration is cost in running HQIs for long, but it is a balance, obviously i want the plants to thrive. 

my other thoughts were going down the grow beam route and suppliment with the existing leds, im estimating I would need 6 with the current leds i have (6x500s). This however would mean constructing a luminaire type frame and that could be pretty cumbersome for 96"x36" not to mention squillions of wires albeit these are long and thin wires, much easier to deal with than the thick T5 wires coming from the ballasts.

Any experts think the lighting duration is ok or would need to increase to 6hrs for HQI?

Thanks


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## sanj (12 Mar 2010)

Oh plants would be predominantly but not exclusivley crypts and ferns. I will be dosing co2 and EI.


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## sanj (15 Mar 2010)

Im guessing my question was either too long or too boring lol.


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## ceg4048 (15 Mar 2010)

No mate, not boring at all. Sorry I missed this. Umm..as per the Klingon Standard Operating Procedures (KSOP) you're planning way too much light. 700 watts of combined HQI/T5/LED is a lot of light, even on an 8 footer. It's impossible for anyone to predict with any degree of certainty whether your proposed combination of intensity schedule and duration will be OK - there are just too many variables. The schedule seems reasonable to me, assuming flow and CO2 are up to par. My preference is to have the max lighting nearer to the time of highest CO2 saturation and then to start reducing the intensity after that. 

Cheers,


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## sanj (16 Mar 2010)

Hello Clive,

I thought i had rambled on too much. The unit I am considering is the Arcadia Series 4 model which is 3x150w HQI and 2x 80w T5. The HQI and T5 can be timed independently of each other, but not by each individual light. The unit is about 5.5ft long while the tank will be 8ft so there is about 1.25 ft on either side. Not to mention the width of the tank will be 3ft. While the light does spread I am assuming there will be a steep drop off moving away from under the light. The leds where going run along the front and back so would be in the areas where the HQI/T5 illumination is quite low.

Having said that the HQI/T5 is 610w alone when both on. When HQI are off thats only 160w and 72w of light on, which might be too low for photosynthesis? I am wondering whether I am going from one extrme to another. The tank will be quite deep at 28" plus the light unit will likely be another 10" above that. it is a possibility to turn off the T5s when the HQI are on, not sure if this will affect light spread too much but also I think the light unit was intended for both to be on together at some of the time. 

Peak photosynthesis, is that usually aroudn 4 hours after initial illumination or perhaps it is more complicated than that. 

I will be using 2x 5kg canisters via 2x aquamas co2 reactors passing through 2x tetratecs (one for each). combined filter rated turnover is 6,400litres/hr as well as a vortech mp40 powerhead proving another 12,000 litres/hr day and down to 6,000 at night. This should be around x15 day and x10 night for turnover. I will use EI like i do now, but up the spoonfulls and probably 1/3 water change per week ,maybe half like i currently do.


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## George Farmer (16 Mar 2010)

Hi sanj

Have you considered two 120cm 4 x T5 54w luminaires, side by side, lengthways?  

More than enough to grow crypts and ferns.  Nice and simple too, and potentially less expensive.


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## sanj (16 Mar 2010)

Hi George,

It is a consideration but i was trying to minimise wires and equipment, the other question being whether 4xt5 luminaires have enough light spread for 3ft wide? The aquarium I am looking to get built is very similar to the current Altum tank in the GreenMachine. The luminare was supported by an acrylic stand which I would like to do, but the stand is supported by the braces so, the manufacturer would either have to make a wider brace or use more braces to create additional support for two lighting units.


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## dw1305 (16 Mar 2010)

Hi all,
If you can hang them from the ceiling I'd go for electronically ballasted High Pressure Sodium grow-lights. They would be cheaper than the other options and give you a lot of PAR.
Something like these:
<http://www.basementlighting.com/digital_electronic_grow_lights.htm>.





cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (17 Mar 2010)

sanj said:
			
		

> Having said that the HQI/T5 is 610w alone when both on. When HQI are off thats only 160w and 72w of light on, which might be too low for photosynthesis? I am wondering whether I am going from one extrme to another.


Mate you are so extreme Jean-Luc Picard and other Federation starships have been dispatched to rescue you from drifting over to the Romulan side of The Neutral Zone.  Check out Oliver Knotts XtraXtraLarge tank setups and have a careful look at his lighting specs. And look at his results.
XXLarge Tank's: 800 Liter and more

Check his 14 foot 5400L tank. He's only using around 700W T5 for a 14 footer that's over 3 foot deep. I think it's worth the extra effort to enable the tank to be able to use either multiple T5 Lumanaries as George mentions. Getting a nice even spread will have the most aesthetic appeal I reckon, instead of having a few particle beam lasers in a few spots and darkness in the corners.



			
				sanj said:
			
		

> Peak photosynthesis, is that usually aroudn 4 hours after initial illumination or perhaps it is more complicated than that.


Yeah mate, it's more complicated. I don't have the energy right now. Forget all that. Use Olivers data as basic lighting guidelines and try to get it right the first time. You DO NOT want to be scraping GSA from 7,000 square inches of glass mate. Trust me on this.



			
				sanj said:
			
		

> I will be using 2x 5kg canisters via 2x aquamas co2 reactors passing through 2x tetratecs (one for each). combined filter rated turnover is 6,400litres/hr as well as a vortech mp40 powerhead proving another 12,000 litres/hr day and down to 6,000 at night. This should be around x15 day and x10 night for turnover. I will use EI like i do now, but up the spoonfulls and probably 1/3 water change per week ,maybe half like i currently do.


Oooh I like this part, We're gonna change your moniker to Max_Flowrate mate, although I'd probably opt for 1 X 25 Kg CO2 cylinder, but that's just me.  

Cheers,


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## sanj (17 Mar 2010)

Hi Clive, 

thanks for the comments, Ollie seems to have a variety of setups using different amount of light, some similar and some less, one is 636W over a 1200l , 852W over a 1500l. Yet then a lovely low light only 120w over a 800l. Suffice to say i am more undecided now, I was thinking about using grow beams again with my current aquaray 500s, but then thats a lot of fiddling around to get a decent luminiare raised off the tank and not lots of clutter. I do like the glitter lines given of by HQI and leds, ho hummm. need to think some more.

dw, the thing about those HQI, they are pretty high output, but im also trying to get the asthetics right too. Dont want too much clutter.


 :?


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## dw1305 (17 Mar 2010)

Hi all,
Yes the horticultural grow lamps do tend to be fairly utilitarian, but with an appropriate reflector you would only need one luminaire.

 How about going the whole hog for the fully industrial look and have a lamp on a crawler and  rail passing slowly up and down the tank?

<http://www.basementlighting.com/light_rail.htm>





cheers Darrel


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## sanj (18 Mar 2010)

> 1 X 25 Kg CO2 cylinder, but that's just me.



Lol I can barely get the 5kgs under my tank, i miss read you and thought you had written 2.5kg, which i do have as a back up.

DW, thanks for the link, thinking options although the rail falls short on length, its 2m. Still im thinking.

Today i was thinking simple wooden or metal frame with Aquarays, but then realised id probably need 8 Growbeams in top of what I currenly havs (6x 500s), Light spread is a question too with everthing. Leds would only cost 60% the elec compared with 4x54W T5s, but then theyll cost atleast Â£500 to start with. 

So until yesterday I was HQI/T5/led combo, today leaning back towards LEDs only and this evening back to T5 luminare and maybe my curent leds (maybe not). Then I think why dont i use my existing T5 ballasts then back to they would have to be raised off the tank and will look a bit pants and untidy...

Ho hum I always do this, its a battle in my head again.

Its not exclusively crypts/ferns there will be other plants, just just predominantly the former, I also want to seen if i can get a hair gress lawn again byut without the fish tearing it up this time.


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## ceg4048 (19 Mar 2010)

Hi mate,
           Seems like T5 + LED would be the way to go. Can you not just use the LED's to supplement the areas not filled by the T5? I just imagining that the T5s would be in the centre with the LED on either side outboard. All you're really have to do is to get T5 with close colour to match the LED. For the big cylinder can you just mount it in a different room nearby and run the tube along the carpet or something like that?

Cheers,


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## sanj (19 Mar 2010)

Hi, my current set upt uses 432W T5 and 72W LED, i guess then I might be using the same, but with better luminaires. If I go the LED route alone, it does not pay off until 5 years and that is only stacked against replacing T5s every year.

I am not sure what the angle of light spread is like in a OT2 luminaire for example, but if it is 45 degrees then it should spread enough if supported above the tank. Just wondering though if T5s at ~35" will be enough light PAR for hairgrass, I am assuming so given all other factors are abundant (NPK, Trace, co2). Today i am feeling like the T5/LED combination might be workable.

S


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## ceg4048 (20 Mar 2010)

Well, like I always say, the hairgrass will be much more concerned about more CO2 than it will be about more light...

Cheers,


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## sanj (20 Mar 2010)

Yeah been reading some older posts by Tom B, on the Planted Tank back in 2008, think he took some PAR readings and found many of the tanks to be pretty much in the same region 30-40 PAR at the bottom where carpeting plants are.

Just trying to work out how high the lights can be mounted to allow easy access etc, was going to mount on arylic stands (as per green machine), so as to give better spread, somthing like 10-12". light radiation drops off with distance, but does it do so much in air at a foot? I am more familiar with what reefers say about light requirments at depth, but it is considerably less in planted tanks. It is a balance, mounting to get good light spread and not being too high so that it is too weak at depth. It seems that the ADA pendants that are flourescent tube are still mounted quite high, prolly at least a foot.

This is all appreciated by the way, it is helping me formulate my decisions, while ive got info spinning around. I guess i just dont want to make a mistake at the outset. This is all a lot of expense too, but im thinking long term.

Its not that i dont have a clue, it is just good to get other peoples views who probably have more experiance and well to re visit my views on things, rethinking, tweaking etc.


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## ceg4048 (21 Mar 2010)

Hi mate,
             Assuming the water is clear, the light energy falloff is more or less the same as in air. It will roughly follow the "inverse square" rule. That means, for example, say that there is a certain energy at distance L from the bulb. At double that distance (2L), the energy at 2L is one quarter (1/4) of what it was at distance L. At distance 3L the energy is one ninth (1/9) what is was at distance L. Now, reflectors change this a little so the falloff doesn't follow this rule quite as strictly. Also, in water you have some reflection from the surface and reflection from other objects that distort the falloff behavior.

As you see from Tom's measurements 30-40 PAR is plenty to grow carpet plants in those official ADA tanks even though that qualifies as low light!

Cheers,


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## sanj (21 Mar 2010)

Any views on the ATI Sun power luminaire VS Arcadia OT2?? 

One thing that stands out a bit more with ATI is that each tube has its own reflector which i presume would be a better method of reflecting light than a couple of tube sharing a reflector. Price wise they seem to be competitive. Performance, well all I know is the ATI seem to say more about how great there unit is (trying to read past the marketing) and well the reef guys seem to rave about them. I could even up to 6 tubes (each luminaire) with the option of turning them off and on, but maybe just stick with the 6/unit.


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## ceg4048 (22 Mar 2010)

Hi mate,
            I've not used either so can't really comment. I don't think you could go wrong with either. As long as they both have adequate cooling and have watertight connectors then it's all about style. Photons are photons, so other than and aesthetic appeal, the only true measure is the PAR values which I've not seen comparisons of, and which probably depend as much on the bulbs as anything.  

Cheers,


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## sanj (22 Mar 2010)

I have been doing some more reading on ATI on the reefing sites, it really seems like this is a high end spec as far as T5 luminaires go. Yet the price comparision with Arcadia is similar minus the bulbs. Arcadia use a heat sink, but Ati use dedicated quiet fans. Right temp as you say (cooling) is very important. Only thing is have not seen many reviews of the Arcadia units to compare performance except for people ranking them as not bad but not as good category.


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## ceg4048 (23 Mar 2010)

Hmm, yeah, but not as good in terms of what? Quality of construction? Brightness? Arcadia is a long lived, reputable company as well, with plenty of representation, so I reckon that's worth something too (not that ATI are a bunch of stiffs or anything like that mind you). Unless someone has both models and can do direct objective comparisons then a lot of the analysis is speculative or second hand. Has PFK done any review on these units? I'd tend to rate their analysis as being more objective.  

Cheers,


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## sanj (23 Mar 2010)

I am not so sure about some of the PFK analysis, i did not agree with some of the ratings on the LED review in particlar regard to the Eco Lamp KR91. I thought the low score given was bizarre given the data they provided.

Most of the research that has been undertaken in regard to comparing lights seems to have been done by American hobbyists and Arcadia does not seem to be one of the leading brands over there and so does not figure in testing. I could not find a specific OT2 review on the released product, just one on speculation and one reviewing the OT2-LED. However there is one on the ATI units and a verbal comparison with OT2, the implication I got was that the ATI was better in terms of design for cooling and optimising PAR output.

My concern is there being enough light (~30-50 PAR) at the bottom across the whole area, so light spread needs to be right. I think this can be achieved by raising the unit, but ofcourse par drops off, therefore want a  punchy T5 model. 
A 4 tube model is only 10" wide. Not sure what angle the light spreads on thes units. Ofcourse must rememeber i can supplement with my LEDS.


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## ceg4048 (23 Mar 2010)

That's true, I can't find any Arcadia products over here at all. In any case, while you're busy punching light to the bottom of the tank, you'd be well advised to keep you dukes up to avoid being punched in the gut by algae at the top of the tank. Like I said, I don't think there will be any difficulty getting enough light to the bottom but I would be much more concerned about getting enough CO2 down there - I guarantee you that will be a more critical issue.

Cheers,


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## sanj (23 Mar 2010)

I did notice your signiature says Miami, for some reason I thought you were from UK. Or did you emigrate? 

Yeah co2 , well im hoping the turnover is going to be good enough, co2 comes out through submersed sprays bars on the tetra tec, may have to renew the current tubing anyway, but I suppose placing lower down the better? 

I think im a bit mad, I dont see many people keeping 1000 litre plus planted tanks. I reckon its partly the wife factor lol. Having said that seen many more monster fish keepers, but their tanks are usually empty uninspiring, just big fish, not my thing, but different tastes is a good thing.


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## ceg4048 (24 Mar 2010)

Yeah, I was in Horsham and left about a year ago, just before it got cold...  Like Morpheus I'm constantly on the move to avoid the authorities. From this hidden station I'm able to broadcast my pirate signal and hack into The Matrix. 8) 

I don't you're mad (much). I just hate the thought of you spending valuable brew drinking time cleaning BBA. Most of the carpet plants will be slow to establish by default. That's just their nature and it doesn't necessarily mean that they need mega light. I'm trying to wean people off this tunnel vision approach. 

Might be worth trying the dry start method, though I can't confirm if hairgrass is a good candidate for this.

I've found that long lengths of spraybar work better very near the surface than lower down. As long as you've got good flow rate you can get good movement down to the bottom. The only other option is to drill the bottom and place outlets down low hidden behind hardscape. That's a lot more complicated though.

Cheers,


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## Dave Spencer (24 Mar 2010)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Might be worth trying the dry start method, though I can't confirm if hairgrass is a good candidate for this.



_Eleocharis parvula_ works really well in a propogator. It is one of the few plants I have that actually progress, rather than tread water (pun intended). HC ia another that seems to thrive for me.

Dave.


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## sanj (24 Mar 2010)

Emersed might be a possibility although im not sure how that works for all plants, and many of mine with the exception of Hair grass will be coming from my existing tank. 

My current spray bars are a few inches below the surface, but the holes are angles at 45 degrees so they inject lower into the tank. I am planting the hairgrass in zambezi and over tropica substrate this time, should much better anchorage than over ADA. My fish (rainbows and denisoni barbs) have been right little b*ggers when it came to pulling up hairgrass and some other softer leave plants ,which they seem to like the taste off.


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## plantbrain (24 Mar 2010)

sanj said:
			
		

> Oh plants would be predominantly but not exclusivley crypts and ferns. I will be dosing co2 and EI.



I'd just do all T5's and have several on separate plugs to adjust light intensity and spread.

Maybe 12-14 total bulbs 120cm 54 w each spaced evenly, about 15-20cm above the water.

Regards, 
Tom barr


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