# Karlie flamingo.



## Martin steele (15 Sep 2019)

Hi I have a question about the gravel above. Has anybody had experience of this gravel with shrimps and snails. Only I feel sure it's killing mine I have checked nitrite and nitrate and pH.

And all I can think of is the gravel ( black) it's common to both my aqariums where I have lost shrimps and snails.
I have been in touch with the manufacturer of the gravel and they said shrimps and snails are very sensitive creatures but the gravel is fine. 

Can anybody help here.

Regards Martin steele


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## sparkyweasel (15 Sep 2019)

It seems unlikey that the gravel is the cause your problem, it should be harmless to shrimps and snails.
If you could post some information about your tanks and the symptoms your shrimps and snails show before dying (if any) we might be able to spot something you have missed.
eg, tank sizes, filtration, water changes, water source, any treatments or minerals you add to the water, plant source.
Are there any fish, and are they in good health?
How long have the tanks been running, when did you add the shrimps and snails, and when did they get sick and die? All at once, or losing one or two now and then?
What kind of shrimps and snails?


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## alto (15 Sep 2019)

Ask the manufacturer about sourcing/product details
- is the gravel naturally black or coloured black 

In both instances, there are occasional reports of livestock issues that disappear with substrate removal


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## Martin steele (16 Sep 2019)

Hi the one tank is 20 litres and contains 6 neon tetras all seem in good health.It is filtered by an interpet internal filter. There are no nitrite nitrate or ammonia.

I have been using plant boost on this aquaium at the prescribed rate and in addition I have been using algea exit it's a silysalic acid mixture that is supposed to get rid of algae.Hense the need for snails and shrimp.

I am told by the manufacturer of these products they are safe.

The gravel is tetra aquasoil capped off with Karlie flamingo black gravel.

The water comes from the tap and is aged in an open bucket for a week or so before use it also reads nothing on the chlorine scale of my test kit.
The tanks have been running for 2 months now and plant growth is good if not a little coated in algea.
I added the shrimps and snails about 10 days ago and the results were pretty much instant. The snails just weren't doing snails things and the shrimps died off one by one i am still looking for them at night but alas I fear they are all decesed.
Oh I have been changing 50% weekly on the small tank and 25% on the larger one Wich is 60 litres and contains 2 breeding goldfish the front filtration on this unit is by external cannister filter and again no nitrates nitrite ammonia the pH is 6.5 ish and I have been using algea exit and plant boost in addition one of my fish had some kind of rot on her tail so I have been treating that with melafix and pimafix.
They were tadpole snails and ramshorn's and Malaysian trumpet snails and the shrimps were were yellow neocardina,s.


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## dw1305 (16 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 
Welcome to UKAPS,





sparkyweasel said:


> If you could post some information about your tanks and the symptoms your shrimps and snails show before dying (if any) we might be able to spot something you have missed.
> eg, tank sizes, filtration, water changes, water source, any treatments or minerals you add to the water, plant source.


 Can we have a picture of the tank, it might give us a bit more idea about the algae and planting etc. 





Martin steele said:


> 20 litres and contains 6 neon tetras


I'd be a bit concerned about the bioload, I don't think it is a big enough tank for these as they grow. 

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (16 Sep 2019)

Karlie Flamingo was a Belgian firm, Than German and today Dutch (Beeztees since 2017).. Neighbouring country for me, thus i regularly find it in LFS and have used it several times. Nothing wrong with it and absolutely safe. It's actualy simmular to all other product brand names out there. All are trade names and do not produce anything.. It's wholesale buy and resell for all. Not uncommen that different tradenames originating from the same region have the same supplier and the same stuff with a different name on the bag.

HS Aqau (Dutch trademark from H. Smulders) Black lava based gravel for example is 100% identical to Karlie Flamingo black lava based gravel.  Both are neighbours and have the same supplier, because there is probably only one in Europe importing black lava gravel.


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## tam (16 Sep 2019)

Have you checked your water company don't use Chloramine as well as chlorine? The former doesn't off-gas.

It's a little odd to have no nitrates at all in any of your tanks.

Did the shrimps/snails come from a local shop or shipped? if local they are likely to have already acclimatised to local water which can be different from a shippers.


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## sparkyweasel (16 Sep 2019)

Tapwater conditioner would be a good idea. Standing the water will let the chlorine escape, but not chloramine, as Tam says, also conditioner will bind any heavy metals, such as copper, - invertebrates, especially crustaceans are far more sensitive to copper poisoning than fish (or humans).
What about the source of your plants? Did they have labels with a brand name? Do you know if they were EU-grown or imported?


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

alto said:


> Ask the manufacturer about sourcing/product details
> - is the gravel naturally black or coloured black
> 
> In both instances, there are occasional reports of livestock issues that disappear with substrate removal


Hi the gravel is coloured however someone has come back and said it's safe. So it's back to the drawing board.
Sorry if this post isn't in the correct place still trying to get the hang of this site.
Regards Martin steele


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

sparkyweasel said:


> Tapwater conditioner would be a good idea. Standing the water will let the chlorine escape, but not chloramine, as Tam says, also conditioner will bind any heavy metals, such as copper, - invertebrates, especially crustaceans are far more sensitive to copper poisoning than fish (or humans).
> What about the source of your plants? Did they have labels with a brand name? Do you know if they were EU-grown or imported?


Hi as far as I am aware the plants came from the far East via a company called i think it was linconshire pond plants. Can you give me a brand name for water conditioner.
Regards Martin steele


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

tam said:


> Have you checked your water company don't use Chloramine as well as chlorine? The former doesn't off-gas.
> 
> It's a little odd to have no nitrates at all in any of your tanks.
> 
> Did the shrimps/snails come from a local shop or shipped? if local they are likely to have already acclimatised to local water which can be different from a shippers.


Hi again the shrimps and snails came from internet suppliers. When you say don't use chloramine as well as chlorine what exactly do you mean.
Regards Martin steele


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

zozo said:


> Karlie Flamingo was a Belgian firm, Than German and today Dutch (Beeztees since 2017).. Neighbouring country for me, thus i regularly find it in LFS and have used it several times. Nothing wrong with it and absolutely safe. It's actualy simmular to all other product brand names out there. All are trade names and do not produce anything.. It's wholesale buy and resell for all. Not uncommen that different tradenames originating from the same region have the same supplier and the same stuff with a different name on the bag.
> 
> HS Aqau (Dutch trademark from H. Smulders) Black lava based gravel for example is 100% identical to Karlie Flamingo black lava based gravel.  Both are neighbours and have the same supplier, because there is probably only one in Europe importing black lava gravel.


Thanks for this it's a relief to my mind to know all my gravel doesn't have to come out.
Regards Martin steele I


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Welcome to UKAPS, Can we have a picture of the tank, it might give us a bit more idea about the algae and planting etc. I'd be a bit concerned about the bioload, I don't think it is a big enough tank for these as they grow.
> 
> cheers Darrel


They are neon tetras they won't grow much at all.
Regards Martin steele


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)




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## dw1305 (17 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





Martin steele said:


> When you say don't use chloramine as well as chlorine what exactly do you mean


When an area is situated well away from the water treatment works chlorine disinfection may be insufficient to maintain water sterility to the consumer. In that case the water company will add chloramine (NH2Cl2), which is much more persistent. The issue is that when this breaks down it releases ammonia (NH3). 

Because you have heavy planting it would be less of an issue (the plants will mop up the trickle of ammonia).





Martin steele said:


> Can you give me a brand name for water conditioner.


<"Seachem Safe"> or <"Prime">. 





Martin steele said:


> the plants came from the far East


That would be a cause for concern, there maybe insecticide residues within the plant. Have a look at <"Wipe Out">, this is from page 5. 





dw1305 said:


> However the one I would really worry about would be IMIDACLOPRID, this is a systemic, neonicotinoid insecticide and would remain in the plant for some time. Neonicotonoids are suspected of causing a lot of the decline of insect biodiversity in Europe and the USA, and a really not the sort of compound you would want anywhere near your shrimps.
> 
> IMIDACLOPRID has low toxicity to fish, but is highly toxic to crustaceans, in conc. as low as 1 ppb for Mysis shrimp. "_Products containing imidacloprid may be very toxic to aquatic invertebrates." "The half-life in water is much greater than 31 days at pH 5, 7 and 9"_. from Kidd & James (1991) _The Agrochemicals Handbook, Third Edition_. Royal Society of Chemistry Information Services, Cambridge, UK. Most studies show that these neonicotinoid pesticides are extremely persistent.





Martin steele said:


> They are neon tetras they won't grow much at all.


Others opinion may differ, but for me they (and the goldfish) are much too big for their tanks.

cheers Darrel


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

Hi Darryl and thank you for your reply neonicoteneoids arnt they the nasties the Yanks are spraying all over Hawaii killing the local 3rd class citizens.
Interesting stuff though on water I have some shrimps and a snail outside in a Rubbermade box they have some plants in from my aqariums and the local water and seem to be doing ok although they are difficult to spot. The snail seems fine though.When I put them in the tanks it was like I just knew something was very wrong the snails in particular seemed to just clam up. Would filtering over activated carbon help.
Regards Martin steele


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## sparkyweasel (17 Sep 2019)

Martin steele said:


> Hi as far as I am aware the plants came from the far East via a company called i think it was linconshire pond plants. Can you give me a brand name for water conditioner.
> Regards Martin steele


I have used Lincolnshire Pond Plants, and had some good plants from them. However; from their website:
"*Important*
Plants are incubated in a solution of 0.01% of the insecticide Buprafezin for one hour (Please do not just drop these in a shrimp tank or with any other crustacean. To use these within a tank please wash in water with baking soda under light. These are treated to remove the insecticide but there are cases where this has not been fully removed causing casualties in crustacean."
I just checked six aquarium plants at random, and that is in the description of each one.
It is usually the case with far east imports, I think it's an EU regulation. The actual pesticide used can be different, and the method of removing it, but imports are all treated with something similar.
That could well be the cause of your problem.
Activated carbon would be good to remove the last of it, after water changes to remove the bulk of it.

For tapwater conditioner, I use Tetra Aquasafe, but the other known brands are good, eg Prime.


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## dw1305 (17 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





sparkyweasel said:


> Plants are incubated in a solution of 0.01% of the insecticide Buprafezin for one hour


That makes it look very likely to be the plants.

Buprofezin is one of the insecticides mentioned in the <"Wipe Out"> thread. This <"PFK article"> suggests that it is less toxic than the other insecticides. It also says that it isn't approved for use in the UK, meaning that they must be treated before export.

My suspicion would be that they use other insecticides as well, and quite likely these are still Trichlorfon and Imidacloprid.

cheers Darrel


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

tam said:


> Have you checked your water company don't use Chloramine as well as chlorine? The former doesn't off-gas.
> 
> It's a little odd to have no nitrates at all in any of your tanks.
> 
> Did the shrimps/snails come from a local shop or shipped? if local they are likely to have already acclimatised to local water which can be different from a shippers.


Hi Tam and thank you all for your invaluable help I checked with the water co to day no chloramine just chlorine.
Regards Martin steele


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## Martin steele (17 Sep 2019)

Thank you so much Darryl it seems you have cracked the problem. It's strange yesterday I fitted a new power filter to my goldfish tank and there was 400 GM's of activated carbon in it so I thought what the hell it might help with the algae problem.Any way it's buffed up the water till it's gin clear.
Then I noticed a snail peeping out of his shell he isn't well yet but im hoping he makes it.
On my neon tetras tank I new weeks ago something wasn't right they were hanging out in the shadows and squabbling whenever they did come out can this stuff effect tetras I wonder???.
Thanks again Darryl you are a brick.
Regards Martin steele.


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## Martin steele (18 Sep 2019)

Hi again all now I think about it it becomes apparent.Outside my house I have a water butt so a while back I came up with the idea of turning it into a daphnie farm and I get tonnes of live daphnie from it just keep adding some yeast and pea flour.

Anyway to cut a long story short a week or two ago I thined out my plants and rather than throw them away I tossed them into a separate plastic box.Within a week this water had turned bright green so I thought dapnida like green water so I netted out some and put them in with the plants.A few days later I had a look for my green water daphnie and not a flea in sight all dead so whatever Lincoln pond plants are using it's bloody leathal can anybody tell me if I can claim compensation for this mess.
Thanks again all who have contributed to this thread I only hope one day I will be experienced enough to help someone in my shoes.

Regards Martin steele


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## dw1305 (18 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





Martin steele said:


> A few days later I had a look for my green water daphnie and not a flea in sight all dead


You could have a systemic insecticide that would combine being very toxic to crustaceans (like _Daphnia_ and shrimps) with having very long persistence in the plant and/or tank water. There are some figures in the <"PFK article">. 





Martin steele said:


> Also whatever Lincoln pond plants are using it's bloody lethal


It would be whatever pesticides they are using in SE Asia. From my experience of working in the Horticultural industry, people don't tend to worry too much about the <"toxicity of the pesticides they use">, and are only willing to clean their act up in a very strong legislative environment. Often pesticides <"that are banned in the EU"> are still widely used in other countries.





Martin steele said:


> can anybody tell me if I can claim compensation for this mess.


As there is a disclaimer probably not. I don't know enough consumer law to know what the legal situation is. I would definitely contact them and see what they have to say for themselves. 

Having been a member of this forum for a while I've seen enough "shrimp death" horror stories to know now to keep well away from plants imported from SE Asia, if shrimps are likely to be involved at any point.  

cheers Darrel


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## Martin steele (20 Sep 2019)

Hi again Darryl I have both tanks on charcoal.But with the kind of half lives mentioned in PFK ,I have no idea how long till my tanks are safe is there anything more I can do.I have made contact with linconshire pp but don't hold any hope out at best I can write a damming review on Amazon bad publicity is never popular unless your name is Boris.
Regards Martin steele


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## dw1305 (20 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





Martin steele said:


> I have no idea how long till my tanks are safe is there anything more I can do.


 Unfortunately it is just a waiting game. 

As you change the water any pesticide residue will go from the water column, the issue would really be if the plants were treated with a systemic insecticide, that could remain in the plant leaves for several weeks. 

You can't really test with a kit to find out if your tank is shrimp safe. 

If you were a water company testing lab., and you knew which residues you were looking for, you might run the water though a <"HPLC"> or <"GC/MS">, but even then they would also have to use <"bioassay techniques"> (with a variety of organisms) before you could say that the water was "shrimp safe".  

If you wait a bit I can send you some other <"non-shrimp crustaceans"> bioassay organisms, and you could try them in the tank before you re-invest in any shrimps. 

cheers Darrel


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## dw1305 (20 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





Martin steele said:


> unless your name is Boris


<"Too true unfortunately">, we now live in a <"post-truth world">. 

cheers Darrel


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## Martin steele (20 Sep 2019)

Hi Darryl yes please send them over in a few weeks and let me know what I owe you for them what are they.
Regards Martin steele


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## dw1305 (20 Sep 2019)

Hi all, 





Martin steele said:


> Hi Darryl yes please send them over in a few weeks and let me know what I owe you for them what are they.


PM when you think you might be ready. 

The ones I have are _Daphnia pulex, Asellus aquaticus_ and _Crangonyx pseudogracilis. _I have a few <"different snails">, I use rain-water in the tanks and it is too soft for most of the other snails.  

I've found posting the invertebrates in damp moss, in a take away carton, works fairly well. 

It is £5 to cover p&p, donation to me, or to the forum. I want people to keep planted tanks, and have snails, _Asellus_ etc because it makes fish-keeping so much easier. 

cheers Darrel


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