# First time crystals



## Aqua360 (10 Aug 2016)

Hi all,

So I'm getting ready to venture into keep crystal red shrimp, and wanted to ask some quite noisy questions. The plan is to have the tank cycled with dechlorinated tap water; then to test the total dissolved solids, and water change with RO water until it's down at an acceptable level. 

This is where I'm a bit confused though, let's say the total dissolved solids are really quite low; what is considered low, and do you then add the reminersalising agent such as salty shrimp, to bring it up to what level? 

I plan on using JBL scape soil to lower the pH to make things more acidic around 6ph, am I right in assuming this is the preferred pH for crystals? 

The other thing is, I have Kh and Gh tests from Maidenhead; but as confusing as they are, what sort of levels should I be striving for here, can I ignore these if I'm using RO water? Not to be ignorant, just confused! 

I'll continue researching of course, just thought I'd ask here for clarification if possible 

Cheers


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## nicpapa (11 Aug 2016)

For crs all that u need its 

Ro and salty shrimp gh+ mineral. 
substrate soil 

Water parameters
Gh 5-6
kh 0-1 . its beter with 0 
tds 120-130 ppm
temp 22-26
ph 6-6.4
The key is the stable tank.... 
They dont like nitrates, when nitrates going up , u ll see that shrimp not moves..


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## SinkorSwim (11 Aug 2016)

nice info thanks nicpapa, as someone who's about to do the same, I've learned they are quite fussy about the conditions. 

Do you have any recommendations on what minerals/additives to include when laying the substrate?
and on Substrate would you say ADA Aquasoil or Dennerle Shrimp king active soil? Honestly I don't see much difference between them right down to the aesthetics.


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## nicpapa (11 Aug 2016)

SinkorSwim said:


> nice info thanks nicpapa, as someone who's about to do the same, I've learned they are quite fussy about the conditions.
> 
> Do you have any recommendations on what minerals/additives to include when laying the substrate?
> and on Substrate would you say ADA Aquasoil or Dennerle Shrimp king active soil? Honestly I don't see much difference between them right down to the aesthetics.


Yes they dont like big diferences in water parameters. 
Ι dont use any minerals under substrate... 
for substrate i use for years akadama... the good with this one is that if ph increase , you  can add some, it dont make nh3 like ada, and it keep alive 1.5-2 years.  
I never try anything else... but i saw most people use ada...


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

I have used ada amazonia and Africana and environment soil when keeping crs and shadow shrimp with great success. 
Aqua 360 I used to use tap water and salty shrimp to bring it up to necessary tds but now use rainwater or ro as you have no idea what is actually making up the tds of the tap water. 

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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

Lindy said:


> I have used ada amazonia and Africana and environment soil when keeping crs and shadow shrimp with great success.
> Aqua 360 I used to use tap water and salty shrimp to bring it up to necessary tds but now use rainwater or ro as you have no idea what is actually making up the tds of the tap water.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



do you have a TDS meter? I just bought one from ebay, but i reckon it's either faulty or fake  i get a reading of 036 on RO water from maidenhead aquatics, 058 out of the tap, which makes me question it's validity


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

My tap here is 76. The ro from Maidenhead might be 36. You can buy calibration fluid but I've never found the meters inaccurate. 

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## rebel (15 Aug 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> do you have a TDS meter? I just bought one from ebay, but i reckon it's either faulty or fake  i get a reading of 036 on RO water from maidenhead aquatics, 058 out of the tap, which makes me question it's validity


Just check distilled water to double check.

Your aquarium shops RO membranes probably needs to be changed.


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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

rebel said:


> Just check distilled water to double check.
> 
> Your aquarium shops RO membranes probably needs to be changed.



does the RO water need to be <10ppm as a base, or would such a value as 036 be workable, if I then raised it to the required level? I'm conscious of the unknown minerals mentioned above


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## rebel (15 Aug 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> does the RO water need to be <10ppm as a base, or would such a value as 036 be workable, if I then raised it to the required level? I'm conscious of the unknown minerals mentioned above


I think it's workable although you may want to dechlorinate just in case. Just use prime.


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

I've just checked the ro I picked up from my lfs yesterday and it is 68! I'm not that happy as my tap is 78...I'd expect ro to be  less than 10.

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## rebel (15 Aug 2016)

Lindy said:


> I've just checked the ro I picked up from my lfs yesterday and it is 68! I'm not that happy as my tap is 78...I'd expect ro to be  less than 10.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


tbh for planted tanks it shouldn't matter. For marine, I would not be using that LFS.


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

rebel said:


> tbh for planted tanks it shouldn't matter


It is for my shrimp tank so it does matter lol


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## rebel (15 Aug 2016)

Lindy said:


> It is for my shrimp tank so it does matter lol


Oh oops! Better have a word to the LFS. Otherwise you will need to invest in a RO/DI system perhaps.


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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

Lindy said:


> It is for my shrimp tank so it does matter lol



quite worrying, that its that "high", as you said; 68 seems a bit extreme! Do you not always measure it to reach the desired TDS? or do you add some then test it?


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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

rebel said:


> Oh oops! Better have a word to the LFS. Otherwise you will need to invest in a RO/DI system perhaps.



it's situations like that which make me wish I had my own system, I don't own my property though; so I can't do anything with water lines to tee off etc


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

I have spoken to the lfs and I think there is a problem with their ro unit. I've never used ro before. I always use a tds meter to achieve the correct tds, adding and testing the water until it is right.

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## Andy D (15 Aug 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> it's situations like that which make me wish I had my own system, I don't own my property though; so I can't do anything with water lines to tee off etc



You can set up an RO unit to run of a hose pipe / washing machine tap so no permanent plumbing needed. This is what I do.
There is a really good You Tube video on this but I cannot link to it whilst at work.


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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

Lindy said:


> I have spoken to the lfs and I think there is a problem with their ro unit. I've never used ro before. I always use a tds meter to achieve the correct tds, adding and testing the water until it is right.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



wow, I'd always assumed you'd used RO...


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

I use rain water. I ran out though so went to lfs for ro..

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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

Lindy said:


> I use rain water. I ran out though so went to lfs for ro..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk



ah I see, interesting.


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## Aqua360 (15 Aug 2016)

guys, I have another question; when you have your RO drums, do you remineralise the whole drum, or do it individual to water containers you are replacing with? I'm guessing it makes more sense to do the latter from a safety perspective


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## Lindy (15 Aug 2016)

I use 5l water bottles. Easy to lift and shoogle to mix salty shrimp etc 

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## rebel (15 Aug 2016)

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PRO-3-50...575481?hash=item19ed8c45b9:g:SHkAAOSw0gdXS9aR

very easy to connect up to laundry or taps etc.


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## Aqua360 (29 Aug 2016)

Another shrimp question guys, thanks for all the replies so far! 

In my open top nano, I'm finding that I need to top up the water; do you guys top up with pure RO, or do you top up with RO remineralised? Don't want to give my shrimp osmotic shock or anything...

I'm perhaps getting mixed up in the 'marine' way of thinking, that the salts are already in the tank therefore top ups are simple RO, however, with TDS is this different?


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## Aqua360 (29 Aug 2016)

@Lindy


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## X3NiTH (29 Aug 2016)

Topping up due to evaporation is done with pure RO otherwise the TDS will climb. Never seen an issue topping up with pure RO, even with a few degrees temp variation between the tank and top up water. To be on the safe side I always top up by pouring over the sponge filter to help the RO diffuse more quickly (definitely so if I'm topping up larger amounts in hot weather) it also helps to prevent the influx disturbing the substrate which is really easy to do in a nano tank even with an egg cups worth of top up water.


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## Aqua360 (29 Aug 2016)

X3NiTH said:


> Topping up due to evaporation is done with pure RO otherwise the TDS will climb. Never seen an issue topping up with pure RO, even with a few degrees temp variation between the tank and top up water. To be on the safe side I always top up by pouring over the sponge filter to help the RO diffuse more quickly (definitely so if I'm topping up larger amounts in hot weather) it also helps to prevent the influx disturbing the substrate which is really easy to do in a nano tank even with an egg cups worth of top up water.



Cheers. I also noted tonight that the water I topped up with, had a tds of 065, the tank itself had 165. So I went ahead and did a 10% water change, which brought the tds to 155ish.

I'm assuming it's best to pick a tds level, and try to adjust accordingly? If so, I'd probably try to stick around 150 I reckon...


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## X3NiTH (30 Aug 2016)

Sorry I should have been more specific, I forget that it's too easy to assume all RO water is a low TDS of less than 10. My top up water is actually RO/DI which has a TDS of 0. The tap water its drawn from is at TDS 35 most days which is way less than the TDS of your RO. 

You did it the right way though doing a balanced water change using RO water with a TDS that high to keep the tank in range. Stable TDS is what your after. Putting a lid on the tank will help cut down the evap, I know it looks great without the lid, but for a nano the constant evap top up eventually gets annoying, also prevents migration over the tank sides if the water line is near the tank rim as CRS like to explore.


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## Aqua360 (30 Aug 2016)

X3NiTH said:


> Sorry I should have been more specific, I forget that it's too easy to assume all RO water is a low TDS of less than 10. My top up water is actually RO/DI which has a TDS of 0. The tap water its drawn from is at TDS 35 most days which is way less than the TDS of your RO.
> 
> You did it the right way though doing a balanced water change using RO water with a TDS that high to keep the tank in range. Stable TDS is what your after. Putting a lid on the tank will help cut down the evap, I know it looks great without the lid, but for a nano the constant evap top up eventually gets annoying, also prevents migration over the tank sides if the water line is near the tank rim as CRS like to explore.



that's a good point, i was thinking of getting some plastic plexi lids made to fit; more on this to come lol


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## Planted Bows (1 Sep 2016)

Just a quick question, would I be able to acclimate them as my tds is around 300ppm?

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## Lindy (1 Sep 2016)

I wouldn't recommend keeping crs with such a high tds.



Aqua360 said:


> @Lindy


Sorry haven't been online...Yes top up with unmineralised ro but you need to ask your lfs why the tds is so high?


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## Aqua360 (1 Sep 2016)

Lindy said:


> I wouldn't recommend keeping crs with such a high tds.
> 
> 
> Sorry haven't been online...Yes top up with unmineralised ro but you need to ask your lfs why the tds is so high?



Yeah, I will do; wanted to use rainwater, but do you never worry a bird will crap in it if it's outside? :/


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## Lindy (1 Sep 2016)

no doubt the occassional bird poo has got in along with the occassional fly and spider but it has never caused problems. I don't use the water if it looks dirty. At the moment I'm only using a 25l beer brewing tub to collect rain so would have to be pretty unlucky to get poo in it. I used to collect from the corrigated plastic roof of my wood shed into a covered 200l container. Every few weeks I would give the roof a clean and also tip out the container to get out any muck at the bottom.


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## Planted Bows (1 Sep 2016)

So the only way i can keep them.is using RO water?

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## Planted Bows (1 Sep 2016)

Or is there any other shrimp I can keep?

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## Lindy (1 Sep 2016)

Cherries or other shrimp from the neo family 

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## Planted Bows (1 Sep 2016)

Well I know to use rain water put through carbon will help reduce it however would normal water sat for a week or so work?

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## Planted Bows (1 Sep 2016)

From the tap

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## Lindy (1 Sep 2016)

Normal water sat for a week won't have any less tds than before.

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## Planted Bows (1 Sep 2016)

Ahhhhh just goes to show how thick I am lol

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## Planted Bows (3 Sep 2016)

Would running water through a brita filter reduce tds, just trying to think of a more cost effective way

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## Aqua360 (4 Sep 2016)

Planted Bows said:


> Would running water through a brita filter reduce tds, just trying to think of a more cost effective way
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk



I don't think that would be cost effective, if it even worked; unless it's a couple of litre changes at a time?


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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

Well I've just picked up 25 litres of RO water, would doing a 50% change with 50% RO water added back in so the tank has 50/50 split of tap water and Ro water reduce the tds?

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## Aqua360 (4 Sep 2016)

Planted Bows said:


> Well I've just picked up 25 litres of RO water, would doing a 50% change with 50% RO water added back in so the tank has 50/50 split of tap water and Ro water reduce the tds?
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk



Yeah, depending on tds of your tap water. So for example your tap water may be say 060, RO is say 010, would bring the level down from 060 to around 025-030, might not be exact like that, but you get the idea


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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

Yeah i get it. I've just tested my tap water and it's around 250 but yet in my tank it's near 400! 

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## Aqua360 (4 Sep 2016)

Planted Bows said:


> Yeah i get it. I've just tested my tap water and it's around 250 but yet in my tank it's near 400!
> 
> Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk



I've found mine rises, it's cause the dissolved solids stay in the tank, while water evaporates off; hence the need for larger water changes or top ups with RO


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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

Ahhh I see  

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## Lindy (4 Sep 2016)

Do you have any rock or substrate that could be causing the rise? 

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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

My substrate is jbl pro scape and I use landscape rock. I know the substrate can cause ammonia leaches? 

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## Lindy (4 Sep 2016)

It will likely be the landscape rock. Does it have white seams? 

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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

In some of them yes. Will I always have this issue? What would you recommend?

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## Lindy (4 Sep 2016)

You might be able to keep your tds stable with small, regular wcs  with ro water or remineralised water that has lower tds than required.  It would probably not bother cherries but crs like stable parameters so you are making it harder for yourself. The rock will always raise your tds. In a big tank with a little Rock it isn't such a problem but small tank is harder. Personally I don't use anything that messes with my parameters. The only rock I've used in a tank has been Sado Akadama which is inert.

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## Lindy (4 Sep 2016)

Or lava rock

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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

Bummer!! I have RO water and plenty of it! I will do a water change tomorrow and use just Ro water so it will have a 50/50 split and then measure tds daily to see what rise I get.

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## Planted Bows (4 Sep 2016)

Just thinking I do have 2 small calcium rocks too. I was told these are a must in a shrimp tank. I assume these will have an impact too?

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## Lindy (4 Sep 2016)

Are they calcium rocks or the white mineral rocks sold specifically for shrimp? 

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## Planted Bows (5 Sep 2016)

Well they were sold as mineral rocks that were specific for shrimp.

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## Lindy (5 Sep 2016)

They should be fine, I use those too.

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## Planted Bows (5 Sep 2016)

To be honest I'm just going to remove them. 

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## Planted Bows (5 Sep 2016)

As they could be calcium rocks lol

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## Lindy (5 Sep 2016)

You could try that but every one I know that keeps shrimp has them. Far more likely to be your landscape rock messing things up. 

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