# Techniques for retaining soil in island style aquascapes . . .



## Wookii (18 Sep 2020)

Hi guys,

I'm keen to discover any innovate techniques for retaining the soil in island style aquascapes that have a thin layer of surrounding cosmetic sand, like these:






Obviously I'm aware the outer boundry is essentially a wall of rocks, but how do people stop soil leaking through any tiny gaps?

I've seen some suggestions of plugging gaps with filter floss, but how do you stop that being visible in a smaller tank where you might not have the space to make the wall three layer deep? Another option I guess is using something like Oase Foamfix?

I'm wondering whether a holding layer of stainless or plastic mesh behind the front rocks might work, or even lining the back of the rock with stocking fabric to retain the soil.

This is obviously a well trodden path in aquascape design, but I can find precious little on the web in terms of construction design.


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## noodlesuk (18 Sep 2020)

I've seen a scaping guide where they stuffed substrate in tights,  then used this like a barrier, behind the rock. Guess bonding the rock helps too.

Top tip, fishnet tights dont work


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## Jayefc1 (18 Sep 2020)

I've used the oase foam before that works pretty well but is hard to get off hard scape if you want to reuse filter floss works and is hardly visible once it gets dirty even in a smaller tank I used it in a 45p you could alway use the stocking ot tight method to contain as much as possible but your going to want a layer on top maybe a little of all 3 methods stocking to hold the soil in place foam to fill larger gaps and hold hardscape In  place and floss for the smaller gaps dont think there is an alternative method


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## Tim Harrison (18 Sep 2020)

I pretty much bond the rocks together or construct the hardscape in such a way that hopefully it won't move too much and then pack it out with filter floss from behind so that it's hidden as much as possible. I've also filled tights with substrate or fine gravel before and used that as an additional barrier.


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## Wookii (18 Sep 2020)

noodlesuk said:


> I've seen a scaping guide where they stuffed substrate in tights,  then used this like a barrier, behind the. Guess bonding the rock helps too.



Yep, I’ve seen Tim post before doing that method, but I think I’d need something thinner as a barrier to take up less space.



noodlesuk said:


> Top top, fishnet tights dont work



Depends on who’s wearing ‘em!


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## Wookii (18 Sep 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> I've used the oase foam before that works pretty well but is hard to get off hard scape if you want to reuse filter floss works and is hardly visible once it gets dirty even in a smaller tank I used it in a 45p you could alway use the stocking ot tight method to contain as much as possible but your going to want a layer on top maybe a little of all 3 methods stocking to hold the soil in place foam to fill larger gaps and hold hardscape In  place and floss for the smaller gaps dont think there is an alternative method



That’s probably what I’ll end up doing Jay, a mixture of all three.

Whats it like getting the Foamfix off glass? Is it easy stuff to work with?


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## Wookii (18 Sep 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> I pretty much bond the rocks together or construct the hardscape in such a way that hopefully it won't move too much and then pack it out with filter floss from behind so that it's hidden as much as possible. I've also filled tights with substrate or fine gravel before and used that as an additional barrier.



How do you deal with any floss that’s visible from the front Tim, just add extra stone until you can’t see it, or some other trick?


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## Siege (18 Sep 2020)

I pile up a smaller gravel in front of the floss. Something like this. 

https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/ada-aqua-gravel-2kg-3529-p.asp

Then a thin layer of cosmetic sand in front 👍


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## Jayefc1 (18 Sep 2020)

The foam comes off glass pretty easy ot was the rocks it made a bit of a mess of it was easy to work with once you get used to it


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## Tim Harrison (18 Sep 2020)

Wookii said:


> How do you deal with any floss that’s visible from the front Tim, just add extra stone until you can’t see it, or some other trick?


Yes exactly or with plants, epiphytes are very good for this and like @Siege mentions whichever is appropriate.


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## Wookii (18 Sep 2020)

Siege said:


> I pile up a smaller gravel in front of the floss. Something like this.
> 
> https://www.aquariumgardens.co.uk/ada-aqua-gravel-2kg-3529-p.asp
> 
> Then a thin layer of cosmetic sand in front 👍



Cheers Steve, I’ll have a look at that when I place the order for the wood (once I have the photo lol )


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## Wookii (18 Sep 2020)

Tim Harrison said:


> Yes exactly or with plants, epiphytes are very good for this and like @Siege mentions whichever is appropriate.



Silly as it might sound, I hadn’t even got around to thinking about covering with the plants - I have a tonne of epiphytes to use so thats a solid plan.


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## Wookii (26 Sep 2020)

Jayefc1 said:


> I've used the oase foam before that works pretty well but is hard to get off hard scape if you want to reuse filter floss works and is hardly visible once it gets dirty even in a smaller tank I used it in a 45p you could alway use the stocking ot tight method to contain as much as possible but your going to want a layer on top maybe a little of all 3 methods stocking to hold the soil in place foam to fill larger gaps and hold hardscape In  place and floss for the smaller gaps dont think there is an alternative method



Jay, Can I ask you a few question on the FoamFix; is it a single use product? I.e. once you start using it, you’ve got a limited period of time to use the whole can, or can you use half, and then store it and use the other half a year later for example (I appreciate you’d need a new nozzle).

Also, does it bond well onto glass, for emails if you want to secure a rock partially to the glass?

Finally when you say it’s hard to get off hardscape when you later rescape, does it actually come off, or does it leave a bit of a mess that’s pretty much permanent?


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## Wookii (26 Sep 2020)

Also another quick question to the group - is the foam matting that you typically place between the tank and stand, suitable for using inside the aquarium to protect the glass from the rocks?


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## alto (26 Sep 2020)

Wookii said:


> foam matting that you typically place between the tank and stand, suitable for using inside the aquarium


That would entirely depend on foam quality and manufacture process 
(I’d wonder about leaching, foam breakdown (especially via bacterial process))

Most professional aquascapes seem to either place rock directly on glass - what is your concern in not placing rock directly on glass? - or on substrate


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## Wookii (26 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> That would entirely depend on foam quality and manufacture process
> (I’d wonder about leaching, foam breakdown (especially via bacterial process))
> 
> Most professional aquascapes seem to either place rock directly on glass - what is your concern in not placing rock directly on glass? - or on substrate



Just to prevent damage to the glass I guess. I know it wouldn’t be seen anyway, but . . .


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## alto (26 Sep 2020)

Unless you have a large rock sitting on a single thin sharp edge, I don’t see this a likely scenario ... but do as you see best (of course)


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## Wookii (26 Sep 2020)

alto said:


> Unless you have a large rock sitting on a single thin sharp edge, I don’t see this a likely scenario ... but do as you see best (of course)



As you say, I don’t want to risk the leaching from a foam of unknown composition, so I’ll go straight onto the glass


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## alto (26 Sep 2020)

Lots of water changes will help offset any leaching issues - mostly I’d avoid the possibility if keeping delicate shrimp species (and possibly more sensitive wild caught fish) 


I don’t see much reason for not placing most rocks on glass (though admit I mostly place on substrate as my rocks are short  AND I don’t keep any serious substrate sifting/tunnelling fish) and I prefer to not introduce unknowns into my aquariums out of (excess) caution ... but then I’ve had incredibly “bad luck” more than once so now tend to the (ultra)conservative


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## Jayefc1 (26 Sep 2020)

Wookii said:


> it a single use product


I've used mine 2 times about 6 months apart so I guess its not a single use 





Wookii said:


> Also, does it bond well onto glass,


It bonded well for me i used the osae pond foam and it was pretty secure 





Wookii said:


> Finally when you say it’s hard to get off hardscape when you later rescape, does it actually come off, or does it leave a bit of a mess that’s pretty much permanent?


It is hard to get all the black marks off the rocks but it will come off with a wire brush and if it didn't I just chipped the little black bits off with a hammer and chisel 
Hope this helps


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## Jayefc1 (26 Sep 2020)

Im sure there is a green aqua you tube video where a Asian scape uses ada matting in the tank its pretty unusual il try and find the vid for you


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## Jayefc1 (27 Sep 2020)

Oh yeah its Steven chong that uses the matt in the bottom of the tank


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## Wookii (27 Sep 2020)

Sorry guys, another quick question. When using the cigarette filter and super glue method, I previously used this glue:

 Roket Hot Cyano Glue Thin Superglue 20g Amazon product

It worked fine and reacted with the filter within seconds, but I ran out today and so bought this from the supermarket:





It doesn’t work at all - it soaks into the filter just fine, but there is no reaction.

I’d buy some more of the Roket Hot, but it’s a two week delivery time. What glue have you guys found work well?


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## lilirose (27 Sep 2020)

It needs to be Cyanoacrylate glue. I looked up the above, and can't find the data sheet for that exact product. However, Gorilla Glue Super Glue will work and is widely available in the UK.


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## Wookii (27 Sep 2020)

lilirose said:


> It needs to be Cyanoacrylate glue. I looked up the above, and can't find the data sheet for that exact product. However, Gorilla Glue Super Glue will work and is widely available in the UK.



Yeah it is Cyanoacrylate (it’s written on the label) but it must have an additive in it that prevents the reaction.

Have you used the Gorilla glue with filters then? Is it runny enough? I’ve used the thicker stuff for plants, but not the other?


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## lilirose (27 Sep 2020)

Wookii said:


> Yeah it is Cyanoacrylate (it’s written on the label) but it must have an additive in it that prevents the reaction.
> 
> Have you used the Gorilla glue with filters then? Is it runny enough? I’ve used the thicker stuff for plants, but not the other?



I have, just make sure you don't get the gel type but rather the liquid, which comes in an upright bottle rather than a tube.


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## Wookii (27 Sep 2020)

lilirose said:


> I have, just make sure you don't get the gel type but rather the liquid, which comes in an upright bottle rather than a tube.



OK, cool, and you get the full ‘smoking’ reaction with the filters with that?


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## lilirose (27 Sep 2020)

Yes. I did this to attach round river rocks to the bottom of a piece of wood that wouldn't sink. Very effective.


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## Wookii (28 Sep 2020)

lilirose said:


> Yes. I did this to attach round river rocks to the bottom of a piece of wood that wouldn't sink. Very effective.



OK, so I bought some of the Gorilla super glue, the normal stuff with the blue lid (not the control gel with the green lid) - and it didn’t work at all - no fizzing and smoking  at all. It’s quite high viscosity too, so it takes ages to soak in.

I’ve managed to find some more of the Roket Hot on eBay on a shorter delivery time, so I’ve ordered that as I know it works.


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## Geoffrey Rea (28 Sep 2020)

Wookii said:


> I'm keen to discover any innovate techniques for retaining the soil in island style aquascapes that have a thin layer of surrounding cosmetic sand



Perhaps a bit counterintuitively @Wookii the only method that’s really worked here is simply using hardscape to plug the gaps. Buying some sacrificial rocks of whatever stone you’re using and hammering it into varying sizes. As you tip in your soil at startup, add in rock fragments of varying sizes and letting them settle into the gaps.

As @Tim Harrison previously mentioned:




Tim Harrison said:


> I pretty much bond the rocks together or construct the hardscape in such a way that hopefully it won't move too much



You could silicone the main hardscape together (Reef type silicone or JBL Pro Haru) so it’s effectively one piece then plug the gaps with varying sized stones. Amano pulled this trick in all those videos from the Skytree tower exhibit in Sumida.

Since employing this method, barely ever get any soil leaching out even compared to the filter floss method, which is odd, as you would think a barrier of floss would be superior.


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## Wookii (28 Sep 2020)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Perhaps a bit counterintuitively @Wookii the only method that’s really worked here is simply using hardscape to plug the gaps. Buying some sacrificial rocks of whatever stone you’re using and hammering it into varying sizes. As you tip in your soil at startup, add in rock fragments of varying sizes and letting them settle into the gaps.
> 
> As @Tim Harrison previously mentioned:
> 
> ...



Thanks Geoff - funnily enough I ordered some grey aquarium safe silicone last night, as it occurred to me it would be easy to push into gaps, but should also be a little easier to remove and peel off from the rocks if I break the scape down.

I was going to use some of the Oase a FoamFix but the bloody nozzle snapped off on me as soon as I first tried to use it.

I don’t want the rocks bonded too permanently in case I decide to rescape in the future, so I’ll probably bond with the cig filters now, in the absence of the FoamFix, to secure everything together, as I can break that down in the future.

I do have a bag of small chunks of Seiryu stone that I’m using to plug the larger gaps on the visible sides, and I have some chunks of lava rack for the areas that aren’t visible. Then I might just fill any remaining gaps with some black filter foam I have, and use the grey silicone for the smaller gaps And against the glass. I then have some brown fine nylon fabric to try and line the inside of each soils areas to act as a barrier.

Hopefully that will be belt and braces enough to prevent any of the soil powder finding its way through.


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## Geoffrey Rea (29 Sep 2020)

I think the graded sizes is what does it with that method. When you knock the hardscape during maintenance (we all will) it reshuffles into position to maintain the barrier. Dynamic barrier.



Wookii said:


> I don’t want the rocks bonded too permanently in case I decide to rescape in the future



Couldn’t agree more. Seems pretty insane to make something as ancient as Carboniferous limestone for example ‘one use only’ 😂

Placing weight downwards with a fixed structure like a wabi kusa ball with plants in to hold the soil topography starts to make a lot of sense also. Giant, relatively light structures that don’t alter their shape on a sloped surface made of smaller circular clay balls... just enough to hold it together until the plant roots act like piles driven into the ground without applying downward weight/force.

Although you could use anything really, garden weed membrane for example, to create a barrier, the picture you originally posted at the beginning of this thread requires more than a barrier. Hence all the above.


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