# EMERGENCY? Help!



## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

OK, bring you up to speed real quick and give some context.

Its been two weeks exactly since I rescaped my mature tank (new ADA Africana substrate, co2 injection, heavily planted, the works)

Ei dosing has been happening every day as per normal doses, and last week I did two water changes of 50%, and this week just one (today).

However, I had been measuring Nitrite and Nitrates via a Tetra 6in1 test strip and as of this morning - Nitrites = 0, NItrates = about 100. (been that way all week)

Here are the problems I can see in the tank:
- large Bosemani Rainbow (male) has what looks like the beginnings of a cotton mount infection.
- none of the 10 large Amano shrimps are eating, some are at top of tank, and almost all are "scratching" at their shells, and look like they are getting ready to molt. They are also a blue-er colour than normal.
- large 3-spot Gourami (male) as darkened his stripes right down to near black, is flicking his side (near gills) off filter tube, and most disturbingly, the base of his pectoral fins on both sides look blood red. (not the gills, but where the actual fin joins the body). NO sign of fin rot on this gourami or any of the other fins or fish anywhere.
- one small clown loach looks as if it might have the very faintest of white spots on its black bandings; not sure, but there are definitely tiny lighter flecks on him that arent normally there.
- one of the other larger loaches is lying on its side in the hygrophilia. I know they do this from time to time, but with all of the above things going on, its got me questioning.

What Ive done since then:
- 50% water change
- dechlorinator added for 90L of water (ie. for water change)
- co2 reg turned down a bit
- King British "WS3" drops added (as per dosage on bottle label)

Im really really worried guys.
I dont want to lose any of my fish or shrimp as Ive had them ages. If rescaping and upgrading my tank for these stupid plants has harmed them I'll be gutted.

Any advice at all, very welcome.
Please tell me what Ive done / doing wrong!


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

Additional -

All the fish are feeding fine and even the Bosemani with the (possible) cotton mouth doesnt seem at all phased. Infact, hes still displaying and trying to pair off with the male 3-spot gourami (the one with the red pectoral fins) as he has always done!

INfact, the only things that are looking out of ordinary are the shrimp who definitely dont seem happy at the moment.

Im really worried, but dont know what to do!


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## ceg4048 (23 Feb 2013)

Other than to high a CO2 injection rate, I can't see anything related to plants causing this. Are you still using nitrogen test kits? Haven't you seen enough information that they are useless? The 0ppm means nothing and the 100ppm means nothing so it would be a bad idea to draw any conclusions based on those faulty numbers. Keep doing water changes, reduce the lighting level if possible and reduce the CO2 bubble rate.

Cheers,


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## Ady34 (23 Feb 2013)

Hi Andrew, 
I know it may be bad news but I'd suspect ammonia poisoning. Even with the Africana soil there will be an ammonia leaching period and I don't think 2x 50% water changes in the first week will be enough especially in a heavily stocked aquarium. The problem with ammonia is that it strips oxygen from the water and can reduce effectiveness of even already cycled filters. This is part of the reason we carry out large frequent water changes at the beginning of a planted tanks life. The plants utilise ammonia but whilst still adapting to their surroundings they are more limited in how efficient they are at this. Substrates and plants offer a huge part of a tanks filtration when mature, but need help via water changes in the start to keep things clean.
Carrying out more water changes will help regardless so that was the best course of action. I'd do them every day or at least every second day now. Be careful adding treatments to your tank as shrimp are particularly sensitive to them.
Sorry to hear about this mate....water change, water change, water change is the best advice I can give. It may be co2 related, but I doubt you have changed much with the settings and if not it would have shown up sooner. With only carrying out one water change this week I'd suspect a water quality issue is more to blame.
Hope they pull around.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

Really appreciate your help Clive - the test strips Im using more because they are there than anything! Sorry :/
Didnt pay any attention to them until I started seeing problems today.

My main thought is that the substrate is now leeching Ammonia (which I have no test kit for) and the shrimp (which I believe are quite early indicators of Ammonia) are now showing stress. THe diseases are breaking out because of the stress caused by the ammonia.
Thats my theory.

THe Ei thing confused me and made me skip water change this week.
I wasnt sure how the water chagne would affect the dosing - ie. you dose alternate days macro/micro and then water change, but if i water change each day, or even twice a week, I wasnt sure what to then dose afterwards. I know the water change is to limit build up of Ammonia not reset the nutrients, but because Ive never done this before, I jsut didnt know what to think, so thought it best to watch the tank very carefully and just do 50% weekly.
Maybe I needed more with the new substrate?


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

THanks so much Ady, sorry, I was typing my reply to Clive and didnt see yours until mine was posted.

Damn, I thought my very mature filter would have been handling the substrate ammonia.

OK, will water change every day for a week, then every other day for a week.

What does this mean for Ei dosing?


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## John S (23 Feb 2013)

Maybe get some Seachem Prime for your water changes. It will help with amonia.


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## George Farmer (23 Feb 2013)

Hi Andrew

Sorry to hear about your poorly fish. I'm writing this on my phone and as such haven't fully read Clive's and Ady's posts so apologise for any duplications....

An entire substrate change causes a huge disturbance from a bio-filtration perspective. Two reasons - you lose the massive qty of nitrifying bacteria from your old substrate and the issue is compounded by ammonia leeching from the new soil. There may also have been a massive change in pH and hardness due to the substrate swap.

Water changes, and plenty of them are your best bet, and/or consider a quarantine tank.


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## Ady34 (23 Feb 2013)

Regards ei dosing, just do it after your water change. Alternatively just add a proportionate amount of ferts back in to the water removed. Say for a 50% water change add another half dose of ferts after it to bring the levels back up.


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

Brilliant guys thanks so much to everyone who has helped so far.
Its very reassuring to know you guys are there, with your knowledge and willing to be some helpful!
Thanks.

@davem - good idea mate, maybe see if I can get some online and posted quick.

@george - thanks mate. I know you didnt get a chance to read Clive and Ady's messages, so that I think means you guys are spot on- you have all said the same thing! 50% water chagne just happened, so I'll repeat that every day this week and pray to the fish gods!

CO2 has been reduced, I cant adjust my lighting unfortunately (apart from unscrewing one of the t5 tubes) so it will remain at the 72w.
However, I can unclip the reflectors to try to bring it a bit lower that way.

Still unsure what to do with the Ei, but plants are secondary for me, so I'll muddle through the Ei somehow and just focus on the water changes.

THanks again everyone, will update this thread when I have any more news (hopefully good news!)


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

Ady34 said:


> Regards ei dosing, just do it after your water change. Alternatively just add a proportionate amount of ferts back in to the water removed. Say for a 50% water change add another half dose of ferts after it to bring the levels back up.


 
lol - we got to stop posting at the same Ady, you keep answering my questions as Im typing them!

One more thing though, Ei has to be dosed on alternate days, so how can I bring both the Macro and Micro levels up in the replacement water? (ie. if Im water changing every day)

(sorry for being thick)


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## nayr88 (23 Feb 2013)

Good to see everyone's input on this  such a good sense of community here  makes me feel really proud to be part of the forum



Sorry to what about the problems mate, don't want to repeat what's been said a few times but yea water changes are gonna be the saver here. Good luck mate


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## George Farmer (23 Feb 2013)

Don't overly concern yourself with nutrient dosing at the moment. Your soil will make up for any shortfalls and your reduced CO2 will reduce nutrient demand. 

All the best
George


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## Ady34 (23 Feb 2013)

As George said its not critical immediately, but just redose the one you dosed on the day of the water change. Ei is based on an excess anyway and whilst adapting your plants uptake won't be as high.

With regards reducing lighting and co2, if you want to reduce lighting intensity significantly you could buy the plastic tube clips to fit the reflectors, that way you can actually put the reflectors on the underside if the bulb to reflect light away from the tank rather than into it. 
I still suspect water quality but may be best to cover all the bases until the fish and shrimp are back on track 
Cheerio
Ady


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

nayr88 said:


> Good to see everyone's input on this  such a good sense of community here


 
Amen to that. For an inexperienced person like me, this goes double too.
Im still worried for my livestock, but feel less "panicked" by it all now, and at least have a solid consensus about what to do.
Its so helpful and encouraging.
Thanks all.




George Farmer said:


> Don't overly concern yourself with nutrient dosing at the moment.


WIll do George. I'll focus on the water changes and just dose Ei as per normal routine (eg. Sunday = macro, Mon = Micro, etc)

Will update soon...


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## LondonDragon (23 Feb 2013)

Has Clive has mentioned in the past it is more important the bacteria in the substrate than the actual filter, you can do whatever you want with the filter but mess with the substrate in a big way and you have no escape from the problems no matter how good your filter is. Lesson learnt


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## AndrewH (23 Feb 2013)

LondonDragon said:


> Has Clive has mentioned in the past it is more important the bacteria in the substrate than the actual filter, you can do whatever you want with the filter but mess with the substrate in a big way and you have no escape from the problems no matter how good your filter is. Lesson learnt


Bugger. Typical me to learn the hard way.
Thought I had done every bit of reading about this thing before I begun and had it all planned thoroughly, but I didnt know about the substrate being MORE important than filter.
You're right though, lesson learnt and wont be making that again!


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## LondonDragon (23 Feb 2013)

AndrewH said:


> substrate being MORE important than filter.


Is not being more, its equally important and you have to consider both, changing the substrate will more than likely trigger your tank to cycle again, even heavy cleaning of the substrate can do that, I had that once on the Rio when I used gravel, cleaned it to much and the tank went into cycling again even though it have been running for ages.


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## Notator (27 Feb 2013)

My first tank I made the mistake of a major rework of the the tank, but because I kept the water and filter I thought it would be fine...
I strongly recommend Seachem Prime and Seachem Stability - and just test for Ammonia and Nitrite - the NitrAte tests can be affected by so many things you may as well just guess a number!


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## AndrewH (27 Feb 2013)

Just wanted to give an update on the tank...

Ive been doing 50% water changes every day since Saturday; also continuing the White Spot treatment (2 doses since Sat.)
CO2 was turned down a bit, and the reflectors were taken off my lighting tubes.

The results have been encouraging.
No livestock have worsened or been lost.
Most of the shrimp are now back down towards the bottom of the tank and feeding.
The redness around the pectoral fin on the Gourami is lessened (though still there)
And perhaps most encouragingly, what I initially thought was columnaris (cotton mouth) Im now not sure is any disease at all. Its looking more just like a white flap on that one fishes mouth. 

So once again, a massive thanks to everyone who took time to reply and help me.
I will continue with my water changes until Sunday, when I will scale them down to every other day.
Here's hoping!...


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## dw1305 (28 Feb 2013)

Hi all


George Farmer said:


> Don't overly concern yourself with nutrient dosing at the moment. Your soil will make up for any shortfalls and your reduced CO2 will reduce nutrient demand.





AndrewH said:


> e been doing 50% water changes every day since Saturday; also continuing the White Spot treatment (2 doses since Sat.) CO2 was turned down a bit, and the reflectors were taken off my lighting tubes.


 
Well done, keep up the water changes and things should be fine. I'd also let the plant biomass fill out a bit. 

cheers Darrel


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## Notator (28 Feb 2013)

Glad things are going in the right direction for you!


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