# Soil substrate, nutrient dosing, and CO2?



## Tim Harrison (9 Dec 2011)

Hi has anyone experimented with water column nutrient dosing and/or CO2 injection in a planted tank with a soil substrate?


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## milla (9 Dec 2011)

Yes, it works, I use EI, Co2 and capped soil substrate with no issues.
You will be turning on the turbo swirch though compared to non co2.  Plants grow faster but the trade off is more time staying on top of the maintenance.


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## Tim Harrison (9 Dec 2011)

Wow, I would love to know more.


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## milla (9 Dec 2011)

The substrate choice doesn't really maske a differance once you add co2 you are  basically you are going hi-energy  / hi=tech whatever you want to call it.  All i do is treat the tank as if i was using any commercial substrate so,  EI, Co2, 50% water change Once a week (every 2 days for first month when new).
If you need any more info on hi-tech start in the tutorials section then the journals.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Dec 2011)

Oh I see, that explains a lot, thanks. I've read the tutorials and very good they are too. I was interested to know whether anyone had managed to reach some sort of compromise between soil substrate and CO2 and nutrient dosing, a sort of halfway house, without going the whole hog. The benefits of reduced CO2 and nutrient dosing with less frequent and smaller water changes, combined with the buffering effect of a soil substrate. I have a pretty good idea how it might work out in theory, but reality is often different.


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## milla (10 Dec 2011)

Yes search for Mineralized Soil Substrate on here
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16405
 and the net.  Plenty of examples of great tanks with little added ferts and co2.  Granted you are mineralizing the soil in the tamk and you may not have used the same mix but the principles the same. The driving factor growth wise is light, less light slower growth less Co2 ,ferts required but its all about finding the balance. 
I use EI because i can keep a tank long term (3-5 years) and if for any reason i can't add ferts for a period of time no worries as due to the high cec of the substrate it should be able to pick up the slack.


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## Tim Harrison (10 Dec 2011)

> Granted you are mineralizing the soil in the tamk and you may not have used the same mix but the principles the same.



milla...thanks for taking the time to hunt that out for me. I've read several very similar threads and they all seem to be Tom Barr clones, circa 2005, http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/433-Non-CO2-methods and he is at best irrationally dismissive of non-mineralised soil substrate.

I was specifically referring to proper soil - what plants grow in - the stuff that's free from your garden or extremely cheap (by comparison) from the local garden centre. I just thought it would be potent mix that wouldn't require so much maintenance; the best of both worlds.


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## plantbrain (19 Dec 2011)

Troi said:
			
		

> > Granted you are mineralizing the soil in the tamk and you may not have used the same mix but the principles the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I use soil of many types, but I do not think I'm irrational about them

ADA As is soil also, so is rice paddy soil and delta clay where many species live, and the clays of Everglades, or the clays in irrigation canals that are loaded with aquatic weeds, or the various peat clays on the upper reaches of the floodplains in some of the rivers here, or the lakes in the alpine regions here in CA.

If I have appeared irrational about NON mineralized materials, well, ADA AS is not mineralized either, so I suggest folks to use that as well Maybe I am irrational these days   

I'd rather folks try the richer sediments personally, regardless of CO2 or not..........they offer the same good benefits. I have many pot test I've done with sediments over the years also. A good rice paddy soil is tops.
Like many folks, I use what is local and since we are on one the highest production per hectare Rice growing regions in the world, it's something I drive by daily for 20km. 

I think some of the MTS crowd got carried away and think they knew a lot more than they really did. Most found after a few months, they needed to dose some N. Many wanted to not dose anything, but then they said they still wanted to dose Traces/K+ (much like ADA style of dosing), which works and adds a little to things, but most wetland soils..........not garden soils......are what we are talking about here........... end up N limited very often where plants are present. Denitrification and N uptake is great as the NH4 is used or converted to NO3 which is highly mobile, so it's not going to STAY in the soil, it's going to diffuse out and be lost/uptake etc.

Only NH4 is going to be bound.
The rice paddy soil?  they just add liquid ammonia to it right before the flood and seed.They keep the soil flooded to reduce the nitifying bacteria(they needs lots of O2) so the NH4 stays put. Once you add garden soil, topsoil whatever....to water and submerse it....it's now subjected to the rules of wetland soil.
Mineralized or not....mineralization is going to occur before or after it's added.

In non mineralized, treat like ADA folks do, water changes a lot for the 1st 1-2 months, 2-3x a week, 50-80%.
If mineralized, 50% a week or more for the 1st month.

Hopefully this is a bit more "rational" hehe.


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## clonitza (19 Dec 2011)

Used to experiment a while back with different mixes, some folks here too, dirt with gravel mostly, yeast CO2 or pressurized. I did try once http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html but exaggerated  with the peat moss. Had the most beautiful crypts and the longest vallis but after a while things went really bad, it turned anaerobic in places, started decomposing and my bacteria couldn't compete with the DOC load and it turned into a BBA jungle so I had to strip it down. Never seen a difference in growth between the peat based soil and Amazonia, same yellow water, same dirt all over the tank. 






If I had a trickle filter maybe things might have been different for sure.
Now I'm back to Aquabasis, good ol' sand and clay capped with quartz, backed peat or volcanic gravel.

Cheers,
Mike


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## Tim Harrison (20 Dec 2011)

> Tom wrote:
> I use soil of many types, but I do not think I'm irrational about them



Sorry Tom...I had a feeling that comment would come back to haunt me when I wrote it. I'd actually forgotten about it, otherwise I would have deleted it; since we've been posting on the subject it's quite clear you're a great advocate for the use of soil substrates. Thanks also for your good humoured response.

Troi


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## plantbrain (21 Dec 2011)

Troi said:
			
		

> > Tom wrote:
> > I use soil of many types, but I do not think I'm irrational about them
> 
> 
> ...



Haha, I laugh at stuff like this though, I tease folks ( a lot)) but you'd never know it on line, most think I'm this mean old crotchey man:0

They are often surprised when they meet me. Then it makes much more sense.
Do not worry, you are a good hobbyists in my book regardless of what is said about mean old me
No need to apologize, it was accepted before asking. I understand and know how this stuff goes, but I am am prone to being irrational, I like it Being rational is just not fun most times.


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