# [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - The End



## George Farmer

The [IWAGUMI] Project Scree aquascape has evolved after almost 7 months with the original plant layout.

Here's the original thread - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=12095

The hardscape concept, inspired from a mountaineering expedition to Snowdonia, Wales -






To final full-tank shot -





Keen to attempt Sozo Haishoku (creative plant rearrangement), I have kept the substrate and rock layout exactly the same.  I have also left some hairgrass growing between the rocks.  More hairgrass is planted around the perimeter, with crypts and Rotala in the background.  Needle fern is growing in the ‘hole’ under the main stone.

I have a few concerns – mainly to do with the new lighting and how the plants will adjust.  Going from 1 x 24w T5 to 2 x 30w LED is a huge leap in PAR! 

I have upped CO2 and nutrients accordingly and deliberately suspended the new LED lighting quite high above the water. 

I am hoping this layout will be as pleasing as my previous effort.  It will be a lot more maintenance, but I am happy with that, as I only have this is my main aquascaping tank now.  I am also coming home every weekday, rather that staying at work during the week, so any issues can be addressed more immediately.

New tank specification

*Aquarium*  60x30x36cm German OptiWhite and cabinet supplied by Aqua Essentials (2007) 
*Lighting*  2 x TMC GroBeam 1000ND LED tiles (6500K, 8hrs)
*Filtration and heating*  Fluval G6, Hydor ETH300, Cal Aqua 17mm outlet, TMC 12mm inlet
*CO2*  Dennerle system with 2Kg FE, solenoid, Boyu inline diffuser, 3BPS
*Substrate*  Unipac Maui Sand
*Hardscape*  Mini Landscape Rock
*Fertilisers*  Tropica Plant Nutrition+, 5ml per day
*Maintenance*  2 x 50% water change per week, general pruning and cleaning
*Fish*  Neon tetras, Cherry shrimp
*Plants* _Eleocharis acicularis, Cryptocoryne parva, C. wendtii ‘green’, C. wendtii ‘brown’, Rotala sp. ‘green’, Microsorum pteropus ‘needle’ _

Here it is not long after the re-plant, and after fitment of the new LED lighting.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Forgot to mention - I'll be adding some E. tenellus (thanks, Mark!) between the hairgrass to complicate the textures further.  I've not grown tenellus for about 7 years, where I failed, so hopefully I'll do better this time!


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## Radik

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Now it looks much better. Previous was nice and simple, it was show piece but over time it could get boring. Personally I like more variety but it is just up to personal taste. I think also your fishes would appreciate more covers and plant density.

Could you make full tank closer photo please? I like to watch on details  Thanks


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## Radik

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Forgot to mention - I'll be adding some E. tenellus (thanks, Mark!) between the hairgrass to complicate the textures further.  I've not grown tenellus for about 7 years, where I failed, so hopefully I'll do better this time!



Tennelus is nice I have one part of tank under slight shade and there Tennelus is small and compact on other side I have strong light and there Tennelus is asmost 3x size up to 20cm leaves. I personally do not like over substrate runners they can get 30cm long and I have to cut them here and there.


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## Anonymous

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

!


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks, Radik!

bcoldwine - Yes, there's a lot of light!  I photographed these at max output, but in reality the 8hr photoperiod ramps up and down gradually with a 2hr peak in the middle.  

The light spill is significant (but little compared to a 150w halide) at this height but reduces dramatically once lowered (when I get some longer cables!)  

I am borrowing a PAR meter soon so will take some readings and compare with my T5 luminaire - then I can figure out exactly what intensity to set these units at.


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## Radik

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

I am just studying those TMC LED's, I was also searching for DIY LED's it could be 50% cheaper and maybe it will not be worth doing DIY but still considering it. Would be nice to have some PAR readings for one and two units at action + T5. 

I assume one LED unit should be plenty, guys who used same CREE LEDs as TMC been using around 13 LED's and tweaked them to 3.7W per LED to give 48W. Check this out http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4609 using 48W CREE LED's

Are you also using TMC LED controller? There is little info on that unit but it should allow you to simulate sunrise/sunset etc and also maybe tweak intensity.

And lastly.. do you have shimmering effect?


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> I am just studying those TMC LED's, I was also searching for DIY LED's it could be 50% cheaper and maybe it will not be worth doing DIY but still considering it. Would be nice to have some PAR readings for one and two units at action + T5.
> 
> I assume one LED unit should be plenty, guys who used same CREE LEDs as TMC been using around 13 LED's and tweaked them to 3.7W per LED to give 48W. Check this out http://socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4609 using 48W CREE LED's
> 
> Are you also using TMC LED controller? There is little info on that unit but it should allow you to simulate sunrise/sunset etc and also maybe tweak intensity.
> 
> And lastly.. do you have shimmering effect?


Nice link, thanks.

Yes, I'm using the TMC controllers, as you suggest.  Quote from my original journal -



> I do like the look of the ADA MH but for a similar price you can get these.  I actually prefer the look of these units and they have lots of other advantages - less power consumption, more efficient, waterproof, run much cooler, no mercury etc.
> 
> Here's more info - http://www.tmc-ltd.co.uk/data/grobeam1000-tech.pdf
> 
> I'm a bit of a gadget freak and the lighting controllers are awesome, and easy to use.
> 
> They have a built-in battery so the timers don't need adjusting after a power cut.
> 
> You can control the light intensity from 0-100% in 1% increments.  You can ramp up/down the intensity to your desire.
> 
> For instance I have an 8hr photoperiod, ramping up gradually  to full power after 3hrs, 2hrs at full, then ramping down for 3hrs to 1% intensity for moonlight mode.  How cool is that?!
> 
> There's even a 'storm' function that flashes like lightning!  You could have a powerhead come on at the same time to create a full-on effect.


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## Radik

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Now you planted LED bug in to my head I'll just wait for you PAR readings hopefully soon


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> Now you planted LED bug in to my head I'll just wait for you PAR readings hopefully soon


He he!  I will be getting the PAR meter on Wednesday, so will try to get some info then...

 I'm off to Germany after that for a few days, so you'll have to wait a week or so after that!

What PAR levels are regarded as high lighting in planted tank?  70 µmolphotons/m2/second at the substrate?


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## Radik

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

What I recall 30 was low, 50-60 medium  80-100 High at substrate level? Dunno but Plantbrain would tell you for sure. I can wait till Wednesday hehe. Tx


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## Garuf

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

He quotes ada tanks to produce 30-50 mol, I'll try and find the post. They're most definitely low light and are definitely very low in terms of par compared to what you'd expect from WPG.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks, guys.  Those figures look familiar.

I've posted in The Barr Report - "Talk to Tom Barr" section.  Forgot I was on their "Plant Guru Team"...  

Oh, the irony.


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## Garuf

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

I'd forgotten I'd a subscription over there! Didn't get my monies worth clearly!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/light ... 12-pc.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/light ... light.html


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## JEK

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Stunning as always, George! Only thing that's "irritating" me a little bit are the two rocks in the front of the left side of the tank... They have a bit different texture than the other ones. I did'nt find it a very noticeable in your old layout, but in the new layout I find it more visible for some reason... Maybe it's because of the new lightning?


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Damn you, Johan!!  I never noticed it either until now!!   

Hopefully the plants will soften the differences once they're mature.  Either that or I will let algae cover them!


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## JEK

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Damn you, Johan!!  I never noticed it either until now!!
> 
> Hopefully the plants will soften the differences once they're mature.  Either that or I will let algae cover them!


Do you think you can manage not to scrub them with your toothbrush?


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## B7fec

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Nice plant choice George, Crypts and Rotala green are amongst my favourites! I like the fact that not only have you recycled the hardscape so to speak but also used plants that have been sent from UKAPS members from their own tanks and in essence recycled these to, following through the theme of the setup.......great stuff. I'll do some reading up on the lights, they certainly look the part and like previously said I think we'll see more  people switching to them. 

Regarding the needle fern.....have you simply put it in the whole? Or attached it the stone first? Bit of a silly question.......but like knowing all the details for ideas for my own future scales.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> I'd forgotten I'd a subscription over there! Didn't get my monies worth clearly!
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/light ... 12-pc.html
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/light ... light.html


Thanks, Gareth.  Great links.  


			
				B7fec said:
			
		

> Regarding the needle fern.....have you simply put it in the whole? Or attached it the stone first? Bit of a silly question.......but like knowing all the details for ideas for my own future scales.


Thanks, Ben.

The needle fern was simply placed in the gap underneath the main stone.  Eventually the rhizome will attach itself.


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## Tony Swinney

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Nice work George.  I think the Sozo Haishoku is a great concept to show just how different a tank can look via planting alone.  I'm considering my own variation on the theme in my optiwhite, by rescaping with exactly the same hardscape and plants, but moving them all round !

Personally I prefer this payout, as I think its visually more interesting, whereas the previous was ultra "contemporary-cool" !  Look forward to see how it goes with those lights, as I'm thinking about them for my 5footer   

Tony


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks very much, Tony.   

I think you'll like the lights.  The colour rendition takes a bit to get used too.  Different from T5 - more 'natural', probably because it's point source and casts more shadows.  The ripple effect is very cool too.


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## Aeropars

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

That lighting set-up looks brilliant! Can i ask how much that set you back including the controller?


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				Aeropars said:
			
		

> That lighting set-up looks brilliant! Can i ask how much that set you back including the controller?


RRP is around 440GBP for two tiles and controllers.


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## schraptor

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

I really like the new look & feel of a tank George. Can't wait till it matures.
As always, great job !


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## Aeropars

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Aeropars said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That lighting set-up looks brilliant! Can i ask how much that set you back including the controller?
> 
> 
> 
> RRP is around 440GBP for two tiles and controllers.
Click to expand...


Wow.. thats some investment! Not sure they will be on my list of things to get just yet!


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## andyh

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Ahh Mr Farmer! 

Looking great dude! Its so interesting to see how a rock scape can be changed so dramatically with the plant selection, It looks great! One thing it really highlights is that plant selection can make or break a scape  

But whats with the teaser photos, come on dont leave us hanging where is the close up?............Or or are you hiding something? Maybe algae on the rocks or blade 248 of hairgrass is out of place!    
Come on give us a close up!

Really good to see LEDs being used in a decent scape, good motivation for everyone to try something different.
Looking forward to seeing this one develop.

Cheers
Andyh


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks, guys.

The plants seem to have adjusted ok to the new lighting, which was my main concern.

I received some E.tenellus today (thanks, Mark!) so will plant that this evening or tomorrow.  This mixed in with the hairgass will provide a nice added texture.

Before Thursday (off to Germany for an aquascaping contest) I will hopefully get time to take some new photos, and publish some PAR results too.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Just taken some quick PAR readings.

It measures 60-80 umol/m2/s at the substrate at 100% intensity, with lights 30cm from surface.  That's regarded as high lighting, I believe.  

The lighting is quite consistent thoughout the substrate area, probably because I have 2 units suspended quite high, giving me a good spread.

I'm after about 30-40 umol/m2/s so instead of dropping the units (I like the spread and overspill), I've set the intensity to 50% on the units.

I'm away from this tank for 4 days from tomorrow, so it will be interesting to note the growth, and any algae... My eldest daughter is dosing the tank for me.  I have TPN+ and Excel each in old 500ml ADA ferts bottles - 1ml per squirt, 6 squirts each per day. Nice and easy!

Here's a quick pic, nothing fancy, taken just after planting the E.tenellus between the hairgrass.






Next time I 'speak' I will probably be with Dan Crawford in Germany, so I may not make any sense!


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## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Looking good as always. I'm interested to see how the tenellus and hairgrass get on, or whether one will try and dominate the other. How tall are you planning to keep the stems? Just coming over the top?

Have fun in Germany!!


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## Ian Holdich

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

I actually prefer this scape now, it looks more 'manly'! lol

the crypts really set it off.


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## Radik

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks George. So maybe 1x Glo 1000 light unit would work on tank of this measures. Or maybe 2x Glo 500 stripes would be even better with nice PAR spread over surface.


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## Antoni

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

It looks really different than before, even with the old hardscape and I certanly like it! I think it has a lot of potential!
Looking forward its development!

Regards


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Looking good as always. I'm interested to see how the tenellus and hairgrass get on, or whether one will try and dominate the other. How tall are you planning to keep the stems? Just coming over the top?
> 
> Have fun in Germany!!


Thanks, Tom.

I have no real experience with tenellus but understand it is quicker than hair grass.  This should be ok as there is a lot more hair grass and it is already established. I am hoping that they should come together nicely in time for the IALPC deadline, as I have not entered anything yet.

The stems will hopefully creep over the top of the rocks, typical of green rotala and I will lower the water line for photography purposes.



			
				ianho said:
			
		

> I actually prefer this scape now, it looks more 'manly'!
> 
> the crypts really set it off.


Thanks, Ian.

Masculine aquascaping is an interesting concept!



			
				Radik said:
			
		

> Thanks George. So maybe 1x Glo 1000 light unit would work on tank of this measures. Or maybe 2x Glo 500 stripes would be even better with nice PAR spread over surface.


Either option would work. The 500 would give a more equal spread but maybe not as much light.

I have ran two Marine White 500 units before on this tank, just after TMC released them a couple of years ago. They were the approximate equivalent of 2 x 24w T5.



			
				Antoni Dimitrov said:
			
		

> It looks really different than before, even with the old hardscape and I certanly like it! I think it has a lot of potential!Looking forward its development!
> 
> Regards


Thanks, Antoni.   

Just boarded the ferry to France with Dan. Writing this on his iPad and waiting for the bar to open!


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## John Starkey

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Blimey George,i haven,t seen this until now,what a transformation i really like it,i think the plant choice is spot on and it will turn into a nice long term scape (if thats the plan),great pics as usual   ,

take care john.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks, John. 

Just planted a few pots of Ludwigia arcuata behind the rocks to add some colour.  The transition of the green > brown > red I'm hoping will work nicely.

The original Rotala green just wasn't playing ball and added nothing to the 'scape.

Also added 7 Assassin snails, to deal with my pest snail population.  I'm removing 50+ per week.

Tobi's ferts are working well.  Noticeable improvement in the hairgrass and tenellus growth in particular.

I'll try to get some pics up soon, as I realise word-only posts are pretty much useless in journals!


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## John Starkey

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Thanks, John.
> 
> Just planted a few pots of Ludwigia arcuata behind the rocks to add some colour.  The transition of the green > brown > red I'm hoping will work nicely.
> 
> The original Rotala green just wasn't playing ball and added nothing to the 'scape.
> 
> Also added 7 Assassin snails, to deal with my pest snail population.  I'm removing 50+ per week.
> 
> Tobi's ferts are working well.  Noticeable improvement in the hairgrass and tenellus growth in particular.
> 
> I'll try to get some pics up soon, as I realise word-only posts are pretty much useless in journals!



Hi George,may i ask who is Tobi and his ferts,

cheers john.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi George,may i ask who is Tobi and his ferts,
> 
> cheers john.


Here you go mate - viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14594


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## John Starkey

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

WOW good read but way over my little brain  :?    ,

regards,
john.


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## omen

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Hey George, just wondering what quantity of the Tobi fert you are dosing for this tank? I've just read the full article in the link, and its extremely interesting. So I take it the idea is to dose that macro mix every other day, and do the trace in between, with 50% water changes weekly?

BTW thanks for all the inspiration you've provided over the years!


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Here's a couple of update pics.









You can just make out the Ludwigia arcuata in the background behind the rocks.  It's more noticeable in the 'above' view.  It's still in emerged form but I've just pruned it, so hopefully new growth will be nice and red in its submersed form.

A few days ago added 7 assassin snails to try and deal with recent pest snail issue.  However, so far they have been useless and I'm tempted to take them back to the shop for a refund!  Do they need time to adjust?  They seem quite active - just refusing to eat the pest snails!


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## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

I want sand that clean!!
It's a completely new look now these other plants are in, I like it  Crypts are looking great!

Tom


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## Antoni

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Looking great, George! I cant wait for the arcuata to develop and give a splash of color on the back! I have had assassin snails before and couldnt see any significant differents after all. I have found few empty rams snails shells, during siphoning, but thats all. Maybe greater number is needed. There is no report of the assassins eating the egg clusters of other snails. IMO it will be best if you could remove as much as possible by hand and hopefully the assassins will be able to control the population of the remaining snails. Its stated also, that the assassins has preference for rams hord snails, rather than pond snails, as the later are faster.
Hope this helps!


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## Ian Holdich

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

looking good George!

I see you have bought the ethical assassin snails! I also have some of these in my main tank.


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## JEK

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Looks great! What's your plan with the stemmed plants? Convex or concave? How tall will you let them become?


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks, guys.



			
				omen said:
			
		

> Hey George, just wondering what quantity of the Tobi fert you are dosing for this tank? I've just read the full article in the link, and its extremely interesting. So I take it the idea is to dose that macro mix every other day, and do the trace in between, with 50% water changes weekly?
> 
> BTW thanks for all the inspiration you've provided over the years!


Hi omen

I'm adding 6ml N _and_ 6ml micro per day.  75% water change 2 or 3x per week.

Thanks for the kind words too!


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				JEK said:
			
		

> Looks great! What's your plan with the stemmed plants? Convex or concave? How tall will you let them become?


Thanks, Johan. 

Convex, arching over the main rock.  15cm or so tall.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Another pic.


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## JEK

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> JEK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great! What's your plan with the stemmed plants? Convex or concave? How tall will you let them become?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Johan.
> 
> Convex, arching over the main rock.  15cm or so tall.
Click to expand...


OK, it will look good, for sure. Have you considered a darker colored fish like black phantom tetras or black neon tetras? I think they would fit the scape nicely, the neons don't stand out so much, I think.

My only critique would be that the rock formation looks very triangular and symmetrical now... Specially on the last pic.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Thanks, Johan.

Yes, I will be changing the fish before final tank shooting.

The layout is quite symmetrical, like the original (the rocks are the same, after all).  It's not so obvious when view from a square frontal angle, but I'm not publishing that yet...


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## JEK

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Thanks, Johan.
> 
> Yes, I will be changing the fish before final tank shooting.
> 
> The layout is quite symmetrical, like the original (the rocks are the same, after all).  It's not so obvious when view from a square frontal angle, but I'm not publishing that yet...



They just don't felt so symmetrical in the iwagumi version. Maybe it's just the angle as you say....


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				JEK said:
			
		

> They just don't felt so symmetrical in the iwagumi version. Maybe it's just the angle as you say....


I think it's partly because the left 'tension' stone is now invisible, under the planting.

Check out the furthest stone to the left, rear.  This stops the layout from being too symmetrical.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

I almost forgot about the needle fern, that's hardly visible at the moment!  That will change soon, as I'm getting some more soon...

This will hopefully add a focal point that's off-centre enough to break the symmetry.


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## JEK

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Of course, that's the reason.  The fern will help a lot.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*

Quick update.

The L.arcuata is refusing to go red!

Nutrients and CO2 are non-limiting.  Light is high (PAR >70).

A few of my European Twitter followers have recommended I boost the red in the lighting.  

Obviously this is impossible with the current LED set-up, so I've resorted to using an old T8 rig (2 x 18w) from a Juwel Rio 125.  

One tube is very red (JBL Color), the other 6500K (Zoo Med).  I quite like the rendition actually, and the PAR is surprising at 40umol at the substrate.

I'm not sure if changing the lighting will help the red in the Ludwigia.  I've always maintained that plants aren't fussy about spectrum, but I thought there's no harm in trying it out.


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Oh, and I've moved the neon tetras into my 240 litre...  Currently contemplating new fish.  My favourite past-time!


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## nayr88

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Interesting to see the outcome, not as pretty as the led's though 

Looks really clean and healthy as usual George. The colour of that stone always sets off the greens in our tanks so well, I'm still a fan of it over ohko stone. 

Cheers


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## GreenNeedle

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> A few of my European Twitter followers have recommended I boost the red in the lighting.
> 
> I'm not sure if changing the lighting will help the red in the Ludwigia.  I've always maintained that plants aren't fussy about spectrum, but I thought there's no harm in trying it out.



Are they not meaning that the pink light should make the plant appear more red due to the different light rather than a change in the plant itself?  A bit like 'Tom Barr's Red plant paint'. lol

AC


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution*



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Are they not meaning that the pink light should make the plant appear more red due to the different light rather than a change in the plant itself?  A bit like 'Tom Barr's Red plant paint'. lol
> 
> AC


No, I don't think so.  

John Ciotti in particular (very good US 'scaper and photographer) had exactly the same issue that was resolved by switching from LED to warm fluorescent.

I remain open-minded.  

This graph was also posted but I don't really understand how it's relevant to inducing red pigmentation.

http://twitpic.com/466wxg


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## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

At Sparsholt we were always told red pigmentation was from having lots of light, and that it was the plant's way of blocking some...... And that they were 'actually' having to add N to a planted tank because there were so many plants.... this was revolutionary as it didn't seem to induce algae...   

But I didn't help my case by growing 100gal of algae infestation with my first EI try (CO2 kept running out and I used 500w of halides)!!


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## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Thanks, Tom.

Well, I've certainly been using enough light, so can rule that out.

Some also suggest _limiting_ N can induce red, but I don't want to risk that, as the plants are so healthy right now.

The best red plants I ever had, including L.arcuata and R.rotundifolia, were in my old Juwel Rio 125 with DIY CO2, Dennerle ferts, heater cable and warm T8 fluorescents!  I'm certainly not about to start using DIY CO2, NPK-free ferts or heater cables!


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## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Yes I wouldn't take their planted advice as absolute fact any more! They made me put a heater cable in that 5x2x2 you saw as well


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Yes I wouldn't take their planted advice as absolute fact any more! They made me put a heater cable in that 5x2x2 you saw as well


No comment.

Any ideas on fish selection?  I'm thinking dwarf chain loach, but they're so expensive (£10 to £15 each).


----------



## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Glass Cats


----------



## Garuf

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Rather perversely, might red in aquatic plants be the opposite of their terrestrial cousins, turning red to capture the most light, shifting their pigmentation to make use of the much more useful (in growth terms) red part of the spectrum? This would explain the reason low light slower growth set ups seem to bet better reds? At the end of the day par is par is par but spectrally they can be extremely different indeed.


----------



## John Starkey

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

After seeing the cherry barbs in marks tank i think they would look nice in yours,

john.


----------



## B7fec

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Hi George,
The scape is looking great, this style is right up my street! Will be interested to see if you get your lighting experiment works, I have always failed to get a good solid red colour in so called red stems. As for fish, my local MA had Dwarf Chain Loaches 2 for £10 nice looking fish.......


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> Glass Cats


I think they get too big mate (up to 15cm).  

This tank is going in PFK and they'll be uproar if I stock fish that are potentially too big.  I had a nightmare when I set up a goldfish tank for them, even with three disclaimers that the tank (160 litre for 6 goldfish) wasn't suitable for the fish once they grow to full-size.



			
				B7fec said:
			
		

> Hi George,
> The scape is looking great, this style is right up my street! Will be interested to see if you get your lighting experiment works, I have always failed to get a good solid red colour in so called red stems. As for fish, my local MA had Dwarf Chain Loaches 2 for £10 nice looking fish.......


Wow!  That's a great price.  My local MA is 3 for £33!  Maybe they'll do price-matching!

What lighting are you using?  Which tubes?

Thanks, Ben. 



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> After seeing the cherry barbs in marks tank i think they would look nice in yours,
> 
> john.


Thanks, John.  

The cherry barbs in Mark's tanks are nice little fish and suit his 'scape really well, but I prefer something that shoals, due to the simpler design of this layout.  Also I'd like the red in the stems to be the highlight, as opposed to the red in the fish.  Thanks for the thoughts though mate.


----------



## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*



			
				George Farmer said:
			
		

> Tom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glass Cats
> 
> 
> 
> I think they get too big mate (up to 15cm).
> 
> This tank is going in PFK and they'll be uproar if I stock fish that are potentially too big.  I had a nightmare when I set up a goldfish tank for them, even with three disclaimers that the tank wasn't suitable for the fish once they grow to full-size.
Click to expand...


Yeah that's true, you need to be so careful in PFK!!


----------



## Mark Evans

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Looking forward to the outcome of the "T8" experiment.


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Quick update!

The T8s seem to be working.  Slowly the Ludwigia arcuata is turning yellow>orange.  I'm hopeful it will get more red as it matures.

I have also noticed some minor signs of nutrient deficiency; pale and yellow new crypt leaves.  

I'm dosing plenty trace and nitrogen via Tobi's ferts, so had added some potassium phosphate and potassium nitrate to the bottle of Spezial-N.  This will give me more P and K (and N).  I assumed I had enough P in my tap water, but in truth I haven't tested for so long, the supply may be different now.

I've also removed the needle fern that wasn't adding anything to the 'scape.

Overall I'm pleased with the progress.  It amazes me that I've managed to keep this same rock layout going with an open foreground for almost a year now.

I'm still considering fish selection.  Thoughts welcome!


----------



## Ian Holdich

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

I really do like this scape more so, now it's filled in. It suit's the open front IMO. Is there any fish in there at the moment George?


----------



## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

You need to clean your inlet George    Have you got any plans for shaping the stems? Sorry if I've missed an earlier post.


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*



			
				ianho said:
			
		

> I really do like this scape more so, now it's filled in. It suit's the open front IMO. Is there any fish in there at the moment George?


Thanks, Ian! 

No fish right now mate.  Just cherry shrimp that are, ironically, breeding better than in my shrimp-only nano!



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> You need to clean your inlet George    Have you got any plans for shaping the stems? Sorry if I've missed an earlier post.


I was hoping you'd notice!   

The plan with the stems is to have them form a convex shape over the main stone, a bit like a sunset.  They're slow growing, so it will be another 8 weeks or so before they're at their peak.  They'll need another prune or two to get the density I'm after.


----------



## viktorlantos

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

I think the current lighting is still not enough for arcuata to go deep red / purple. The time since you switched should be enough to see red rather than yellow/orange colors. But looking forward to see the progresss in the upcoming weeks.

In the gallery i experiment the same thing above our plant holder tanks. We do use 0.5w/l T5 there to avoid algae issues and force slow growth a bit. And most of these plants including arcuata is not perform its best with this light. Proserpinaca do the same for example.

We do have arcuata and proserpinaca in our high light planted tanks, arcuata also placed in one of the mid-light one, and nowhere i see that deep red / purple color what i see with the 4xT5 1W/l (high-light) lighting.

Just my 2 cent, as always every tank is different. But a good experiment to see the same plants in different conditions.


----------



## bigmatt

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

mmm...scapy...
Maybe harlequins or chilli rasboras?  I'm a big fan of the boraras species as they are pretty shrimp safe, add to the size illusion and you can accommodate a pretty impressive shoal even in smaller tanks, and the colouring in chilli rasboras would complement the planting (just for ref Chillis are 5 for £5 at MA South Leeds at the mo)
Cheers,
M


----------



## John Starkey

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Hi George,dont know if you remember my 150cm setup,but when i grew ludwigia arcuarta it certainly went red with two 54w T5,s over the top,but i was doing a mid day burst of 2 hrs,here,s a pic to remind you,








Maybe a mid day burst with the T5,s would be the answer,looking good thought mate,

john.


----------



## viktorlantos

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

hey John,
This is not arcuata  This is Ludwigia Repens which is less tricky than Arcuata.
Nice tank by the way.


----------



## Mark Evans

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Looking nice George. 

Hats off to ya for choosing arcuata. IME, it's not the easiest to get looking good, like rotala rotundifolia/green of even HM or umbrosum...i dont think it lends itself to the 'bush' effect like the others 

I'm sure you'll pull it off though. wait a while longer before butchering it.


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Thanks, guys.

Viktor - so the red _is_ intensity related?  

Any ideas why it wasn't showing a hint of red with intense LED lighting (100 umol), but now is showing some red with relatively low lighting via T8?

Maybe I'll try 4 x 24w T5 next...


----------



## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

George, are you making a note of the spectrum of each type of lighting you try as well as the type/intensity?


----------



## viktorlantos

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Cheers George, i followed your experience with LED units vs red plants. I did not had a chance yet to try it on a larger tank so this is a really valuable experience. Will test it also with the TMC unit shortly.

On Arcuata, somehow this is intensity related, but LED may just not have that specific range which is required to boost these high light red plants.

This could be something like we experience with ADA NA Green HQI bulbs from ADA. There the intensity is good, but as the whole light spectrum is green, those red colors just not work with it.

Probably the cold blueish LED does the same effect on some plants.

The current T8 shows that the light spectrum is much better as the plant started to move to orange color. So just a boost  needed for it. We used this plant sometime in the past with good success, and using currently too (one of my fav plant), but as Mark mentioned this is not easy to make it good looking. Bit slow, less dense etc

but could go red if its ok. this is one of our past tank.







Or you can mix it with Ludwigia Brevipes like the IAPLC 2009 Grand Prize winner did, to get that bushy effect.


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*



			
				Mark Evans said:
			
		

> Looking nice George.
> 
> Hats off to ya for choosing arcuata. IME, it's not the easiest to get looking good, like rotala rotundifolia/green of even HM or umbrosum...i dont think it lends itself to the 'bush' effect like the others
> 
> I'm sure you'll pull it off though. wait a while longer before butchering it.


Thanks, Mark.   

You're right.  We don't often see L. arcuata used as a 'bush', which is a shame as it's a lovely plant with great texture.  Less maintenance than most stems too (if you can get the appropriate lighting right, that is!)  

It's used here quite nicely - 





Full interview with Roy here - http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/c ... p?sid=3350

Rotala rotundifolia was the obvious choice but previous experience shows that it's quite tough to get red too.  Besides, you have the monopoly on Rotala!    

Thanks for the tip about letting it grow more before pruning.   



			
				john starkey said:
			
		

> Hi George,dont know if you remember my 150cm setup...


I sure do mate!  I remember meeting you for the first time in Hayling Island (Festival of Fishkeeping 2007), and you showed me the shots on your camera.  



			
				Tom said:
			
		

> George, are you making a note of the spectrum of each type of lighting you try as well as the type/intensity?


Yes mate.    

The reason I went T8 was so I could get more red in the spectrum, as suggested by a few folk from overseas.    

I'll try Arcadia Plant Pro T5 next, which has a fair amount of red too.

I'm finding the challenge and experimentation enjoyable; wouldn't life would be boring if all plants were really easy to grow and exactly how we wanted them to!


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*



			
				viktorlantos said:
			
		

> The current T8 shows that the light spectrum is much better as the plant started to move to orange color. So just a boost  needed for it. We used this plant sometime in the past with good success, and using currently too (one of my fav plant), but as Mark mentioned this is not easy to make it good looking. Bit slow, less dense etc


Makes sense mate.  Cheers, Viktor!


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - T8 lighting experiment*

Now running a 9hr photoperiod with 4 x HO 24w T5 Arcadia Plant Pro (new).  PAR is over 100 at the substrate and around 200 at the stem tips.  We're at SPS coral lighting levels!   

I've increased CO2 and nutrients to compensate and all livestock has been removed so the large CO2 qty won't do any harm.

If this doesn't give me red L. arcuata then I'm giving up!


----------



## Piece-of-fish

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Very interesting to read about arcuata. I am growing it myself at the moment in couple tanks.


----------



## Iliveinazoo

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

I love the look of your tank  

I'm not a light expert by far but as I understand it the white light produced by fluorescents is made up by combining different colours of the light spectrum whereby LED is a blue light and it is made white by adding coats of phosphor, the more phosphor added means a warmer colour temperature - so blue-to-white-to-orange.


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*



			
				Piece-of-fish said:
			
		

> Very interesting to read about arcuata. I am growing it myself at the moment in couple tanks.


Hi Ed,

What set-ups are you using it in?  Lighting type and intensity?  How long have you been growing it for?

It will be interesting to see how you get on!  I'm not sure if I've seen any proper red L.arcuata in the UK yet...



			
				Iliveinazoo said:
			
		

> I love the look of your tank
> 
> I'm not a light expert by far but as I understand it the white light produced by fluorescents is made up by combining different colours of the light spectrum whereby LED is a blue light and it is made white by adding coats of phosphor, the more phosphor added means a warmer colour temperature - so blue-to-white-to-orange.


Thanks! 

That's what I have read before too.

What I'm interested in is that it seems spectrum makes a difference to pigmentation, where as before I didn't think it did.


----------



## Piece-of-fish

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Was growing it in my office tank. The lighting there is 2x39w cheap T5 6500K plus 2x150w cheap 6500K metal halides for 3 hours in the middle of the day. Arcuata was quite red but very dark shade of red on the top. It got swallowed by micraithemoides and after replanting all backround stems i decided not to plant it anymore (and there wasnt much left to replant). Earlier before replanting i took few stems to plant into NA Style Baby which only has 2xT5 6500 over 180l tank atm and it is early days to say something about it. Last tank is vivarium nano. It is 15L tank and is run by 2x11w arcadia arcpods with again cheap PC 6500K. First lights were very close from the water surface. I'd say about 3cm. Arcuata showed nice bright red here. I have upped the lights to about 10cm now as was struggling with gda and done a trim at the same time. Will see how arcuata will respond soon.
All tanks are fertilized by EI
Difficult but nice plant   
Hope it grows for you well in the end.


----------



## Anonymous

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

I've seen yet another tank (350l) with bright red rotalas and ludwigia arcuata, lights osram 830 + 840 t8 maybe 1w/l since I haven't count, just micro fertilization, lots of fish and plenty of CO2 (water here in our city doesn't contain N or P). I'm starting to believe that lean macro dosing is the key for having nice red plants.

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## sanj

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Plants look very healthy George, interesting to see the scape evolve. I prefer more plants than less most of time especially in scapes with a wilderness edge to them. In this one though I not sure yet. I think the sparse rock-grass-sand scape was somthing interesting, not seen that often and perhaps with the clean look and good photography. 

I also have tmc leds in one 364 litre cube and there is a red anapogeton in it...but its not red. PAR though is only 30 at substrate.


----------



## Lisa_Perry75

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

I think the green > red change needs a bit more technical thought, as it seems people are forgetting that if something looks green it is because the red and blue wavelengths have been absorbed and the green reflected. It gets quite complicated mixing light colours as the primary colours are red, green and blue.

I am definitely not an expert in plant biochemistry but using this theory I would imagine the plant changes from absorbing red to reflecting it, making the plant look yellow-orange. The green light needs to be absorbed for the plant to look really red. What is the trigger for a plant to change the absorbance of light for photosynthesis - dunno!


----------



## Anonymous

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

I don't think that spectrum triggers red plants. Tried different approaches with no notable results.
Anyway a good read is the bubbles aquarium's gallery tanks specs:
http://bubblesaquarium.com/Aquascape/Aq ... PageF1.htm

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Hi all,

I will do doing a 'final' photo shoot on this aquascape tomorrow.

I know it's short notice but if any UKAPS members are in the Stamford area in the morning (Wednesday, 13th April) then they're welcome to pop in for a cuppa.  PM me and I will give you more details.

Here's what it looked like last week (I gave up on the red arcuata!)


----------



## Fred Dulley

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Looks smashing, George.
Really like the Crypt on the right-hand side.


----------



## Anonymous

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Excellent stuff mate, I wasn't sure about the sterns in the back when you planted them but it looks smashing like Fred said.

How's the lily? I was planning to buy one of those but I'm not sure about the distribution.

Cheers,
Mike


----------



## B7fec

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

What more can be said......Absolutely fantastic! I love this scape!


----------



## Piece-of-fish

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Amazing. I'd love to have it in my home   . Pity we wont find out about Arcuata now 
Looking forward to your new creation...


----------



## nayr88

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Brillaint George, really like it


----------



## Tom

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

My favourite of yours yet by a mile  I was tempted to take the drive to Stamford


----------



## George Farmer

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

Thanks guys! 

It's my favourite too, Tom.  Shame you live so far away - I know how expensive fuel is these days...

Just done the shoot.  Tried a black background too which was interesting.  I will post some previews later.  

IAPLC doesn't close until May 31st so I may keep it going in an attempt to improve the stems further.


----------



## wearsbunnyslippers

*Re: [IWAGUMI] Scree Evolution - uber lighting*

something to be proud of!


----------



## George Farmer

Hi all,

This 'scape is coming to the end of its life now.














I've managed to squeeze all the equipment into the cabinet as well with suits the overall minimalist look I like with any aquarium set-up.





It's been a really nice aquascape to have over the last year or so.  I get tired of most Iwagumi layouts quite quickly but the new planting has given me plenty more interest.  I've learnt a lot, giving me plenty lessons to take forward for future creations.

Here's a few key learning points that I'd like to share.  For some they won't come as anything new, but for others, they may come in useful.

1.  Inert substrate is perfectly fine for long-term plant growth, providing decent nutrients are provided in the water column.

2.  LED lighting can grow plants very well.

3.  George Farmer can't grow red Ludwigia arcuata.

4.  Open sand foregrounds are easy to maintain and keep clean.

5.  A metal-wire toothbrush is great for cleaning rocks.

6.  Mini Landscape Rock (Seiryu Stone) increases hardness significantly.

7.  Spezial-N and Flowgrow Mikro from Aqua Rebel are superb fertilisers.

8.  Fluval G filters are brilliant and incredibly easy to maintain.

9.  Glassware breaks too easily for clumsy people.

10. Keep your hoses clean to maintain good flow rates.


----------



## Mark Evans

Impeccable mate!

some valuable lesson for us all.


----------



## Tom

Absolutely gorgeous. 



> 4. Open sand foregrounds are easy to maintain and keep clean.



 

  I don't know how you manage it!


----------



## Gill

Pity to see this come to an end, but each scape reaches a point of plateau. 
Some good points raised for others to learn from. 

I can relate to clumsy hands and glassware, plenty of cuts along the way over the years.


----------



## Ian Holdich

very tidy, George. Have you found that the glass outlet worked? I can only imagine that the C02 gassed off at a massive amount with that?


----------



## NeilW

State of the art setup with some state of the art scaping. A classic indeed George. Awesome.


----------



## George Farmer

Thanks, guys. 



			
				ianho said:
			
		

> very tidy, George. Have you found that the glass outlet worked? I can only imagine that the C02 gassed off at a massive amount with that?


Thanks, Ian.

The poppy-style lily pipe outlet alters a few things - 

1.  More CO2 consumption.  I've raised from 2 to 3bps.
2.  Less overall lower-middle water column movement.
3.  Great glitter lines with LED lighting (or MH).
4.  More O2 (especially at night).

1 and 2 may present issues for some set-ups, but I've noticed nothing detrimental in the 4 weeks or so since I've been using it.


----------



## sanj

George,

I was wondering do you have a scape that you keep for the long term, i.e years and watch how it evolves and changes with time. I just notice that like with you and Mark they seem to go on for maybe 6 months or so. I understand that it means you guys get alot of experiance always trying somthing new, but just that well what happens with a 5 year old scape.

I usually plan mine for longer term, but always get interuppted, like now moving house.

Anyway very nice evolution scape that you did there, very clean looking and lush.  I think id feel quite bad taking it apart though.


----------



## Mark Evans

Thats an interesting topic Sanj.   

In terms of long term scape, it's something I'd like to do, but currently, I don't have the room. 

I think also, for certain groups of scapers, there's always the want to improve on ones skills. 

My viewpoint is, when I do a layout, to some degree, I can see where it's going to end up and when it's reached that point, I need to continue with my development as an aquascaper.

I tend to find a scape can develop pretty quickly, and when you're confined to a 60cm lets say, it's actually quite hard to maintain for long periods. However, in a much larger aquarium, you're in a better position to overcome this situation.  

From the artistic perspective, a 60cm or even a 90cm tank can be a great canvas for quick scapes, which can help us develop our skills.

 Over the last few years, I've learned plenty from the short term scapes, which if they'd been a long tem scape, I'd be a couple of years behind in terms of knowledge. 

I've found recently, that a 120cm tank can be costly, re-scaping every 4 months or so, so cost is a valid part of the 'long term' scape viewpoint. 

There's of course, pro's and cons for both.


----------



## George Farmer

sanj said:
			
		

> I was wondering do you have a scape that you keep for the long term, i.e years and watch how it evolves and changes with time.


Hi sanj,

Great topic for discussion, as Mark says.   

The short answer is 'no'.

I have my current nano that's been evolving over the last 3 years or so with the odd re-plant but keeping the same hardscape.

I created 'The Shade' a few years ago that lasted about 2 years.





I think different hobbyists approach aquascaping from different perspectives.

For me the biggest rewards are the both the learning and sharing of my plant growing and aquascaping experiences through the likes of UKAPS, PFK, interviews, contests (participating and judging) etc.

To do this effectively, and with credibility, it's important to experience the aquascaping and plant hobby with as much breadth and depth as possible.  

Whilst there is a strong case for learning a significant amount through long-term 'scapes, I think the learning curve is steeper with the more aquascapes one creates, along with the greater quantity of associated plant species and the utilisation of a wide range of equipment-types, methods and techniques.

The champagne solution would be to have something like you - a 1,600 litre, that I would certainly keep as a long-term 'scape.  The finances and potentially hard work, especially on start-up, that is associated with such a large aquarium would make short-term 'scaping rather foolish, unless you have lots of spare cash and spare time!  Along with a huge tank, a 60/90/120cm would be perfect as a 'play' tank to churn out new 'scapes.

As Mark alludes to, keeping a 'scape for several years in smaller aquaria brings about practical challenges.  Epiphyte plants would have to be the order of the day, and from a personal viewpoint, I would probably get bored after a year or so.  A good example of this are the tanks in the ADA NA Gallery, that get maintained meticulously every day.  Beautiful aquascapes that are kept running for years, but to keep the standard up the maintenance required in smaller tanks is incredibly high, and beyond what I can achieve.

For me there's so much 'scaping I want to do, so many new plants, new ideas, and limiting myself by 'tying' up an aquarium for years would drive me crazy once the 'scape had reached a certain level.

This brings about another interesting point.

I usually have an end-game for an aquascape.  I visualise what I'm after during the planning stage.  Once my visualisation has been achieved, for better or for worse, it's time for the final photo shoot (another very important aspect for me).  From then I'm itching to create something new, something that I've probably already been planning for the previous few weeks before the final photo shoot...  The timescale for this is rarely over 6 months, due to the relatively fast growing nature of aquatic plants in the types of set-ups I run.

Finally, when my wife gives-in to my nagging, and after I've left the RAF, I will set up an 8x3x3 (2,000 litre), that I intend to keep running for years - probably quite similar to your 1,600 litre actually...


----------



## sanj

> Finally, when my wife gives-in to my nagging, and after I've left the RAF, I will set up an 8x3x3 (2,000 litre), that I intend to keep running for years - probably quite similar to your 1,600 litre actually...



Ooh excellent!! I think that you would have to, I am sure the wife will see the light in the end. I recommend acrylic if you go that way mainly because of the strength and clarity, the seems will be better too (no silicone). Ive kept away from 3ft high only because of the practicality of maintaining a tank at that height, but it is possible. 

I do undertand both of your reasons and I think that is what it comes down to...what do you want to get out of it.

My reasons are different also, while I do want to improve on aquascaping, my main drive is a lush planted tank creating a pleasing more stable  environment for the fish i keep. As you might know I keep and breed rainbowfish many of which are either very rare here in the UK or not found here at all.


----------



## George Farmer

Emptied today ready for the next project.  Unfortunately I can't make the next one public for a while.

Spent about 30 minutes scrubbing the algae off the silicon with a toothbrush and bleach!  Came up as good as new.


----------



## Orlando

Hi George. We are bringing in the TMC LED lights and I wanted to see how these were doing for you thus far. 


Salude,
Orlando


----------



## plantbrain

I think the comments about long term scaping vs shorter term are important here. Newer folks will gain a great deal from scaping and redoing tanks often.

This is how you learn, *by experience.*
The more you do, the more you learn.

As you age in the plant hobby, your taste change as well. So do you goals.
Longer term, slower growing, less work, less input become more important.
The new thrill of redoing a tank might lose its allure.

However, for many, myself included, I allow the scape to change and evolve and then let it go to it's fruition, then change it and break the tank down and redo any parts I was not happy with prior. Each reincarnation allows you to get closer to what you seek as you change as well :idea:  I was not happy with the tank shape, or the quality of the tank etc, so I upgraded and then took the opportunity to redo the scape as well.

Any chance to redo is a good learning experience.

By redoing his tanks many times, George gained a lot, he spent the time to do this, many folks often do not.
Some fall into algae plagues and never make it to this part of the hobby, which is the sadder part of things. Others do not want to put in the time(or say they do, but do not).


----------



## GreenNeedle

I'm in the planning stage of a new scape.  Over the past couple of months have veered towards a minimalist rock only hardscape and tonight thought I'd spend a n hour (or 5) googling scaping pictures to see if I could find any inspiration or ideas.

Up comes a picture, instantly like it, the lighting is perfect as it resembles mine and lo and behold its a George Farmer scape   

You are going to have to stop inspiring me George.  You seem to have the monopoly over the past few years.  Every time I move onward with a different idea in mind you've already done it for me. lol

Now I have a major problem.  How to use your inspiration in both Scree scapes without copying it.  Very hard to do.  Going to be hard now.  Hmmm.


To sidetrack a little I have read through the whole journal (not something I normally do) and find the PAR data pretty interesting.

Those LED tiles are 21.5W each at max?  = 43W total? and at 30cm the PAR at substrate is 60-80.  The 2 x 18W T8 was 40 although I guess much closer than 30cm from the surface and the 96W T5HO is over 100.

On the TMC site it claims 12W LED is up to 33% more PAR than 24W compact flourescent.

Now I know compact flourescents are probably the worst of the flourescents for efficiency however if 36W of T8 even closer to the water is achieving 66 - 50% of 43W of LED it sounds pretty poor to me.  It would mean that equal W of T8 would match or nearly match the LEDs!!!  Any thoughts?  Or maybe my mind calculator has gone wrong again!!!

Now I'm off to try and not copy a scape (although it will have Needle Fern in it. lol)

AC


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## George Farmer

Hi Andy

Glad you like the 'scape.

The lighting data is interesting.  The T8 was almost touching the water surface, with the LED suspended above.  I guess this accounts for the results. 

The light spill is also significant on the 1000ND as they're not lensed, where as the 12w units you reference may be lensed, thus improving efficiency.

I believe the 1000ND are 30w.


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## GreenNeedle

I think the total consumption is 30W.  so the power to the actual output will be less.  I'm just roughly translating the 21.5V to 1W per V which is a very bad crude figure   Maybe I'm reading the info incorrectly  there. lol. If it were 30W that would make it an even worse statement of comparison meaning the T8s were doing better than the tiles.

I suppose the height would account for some of the difference but the 12W is a 'general' statement on the header page of the Aquabeam range.  they don't seem to put that statement on the individual units' pages.

Not to worry. Just trying to glean some useful comparison data 

I'm  off to see what rock I can find in the garden centres 

AC


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## LondonDragon

Congrats on the PFK feature George, another good read


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## Emyr

Have spent a while scanning through all of these two threads. Really helped me a lot, these in detail threads are so informative on so many points and subjects within Aquascaping, Thanks a lot George.


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