# Film on water



## SJL (4 Feb 2012)

Hi , i may have asked this before but im trying to grow a planted aquaria an i was under the impression not to disturb the surface to much because of gas exchange , but i think i have a protein film on water surface  how  do i clear it?

cheers stuart


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## JenCliBee (4 Feb 2012)

Agitate at night when the co2 is not utilised or some use a non scented kitchen towel to soak up the surface.


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## Tim Harrison (4 Feb 2012)

Hi this is an interesting and I suppose sometimes contentious issue. It probably is not a protein film as such but a biofilm composed of bacterial colonies. 

I suspect that they are often passed of as the plant products of accelerated photosynthesis, and hence why some proponents of the higher energy methods swear by frequent and substantial water changes. IME however, the same eutrophic ferts dosing that benefits plants also benefits bacteria, hence the often very thick biofilms after a day or two following a water change and ferts dosing.

Even in low energy setups biofilms are a permanent feature unless surface agitation is sufficient to prevent their formation. In this case I would not worry to much either way, but on balance I think that it is more important to prevent the formation of biofilms to allow for adequate gas exchange to keep your aquarium critters healthy. If on the other hand all you have is plants you only have to worry about aesthetics.

You can either and/or change the water frequently or use a sheet of paper as already stated. Simply place it on the surface and mop up the biofilm and then discard.


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## Antipofish (4 Feb 2012)

Troi said:
			
		

> Hi this is an interesting and I suppose sometimes contentious issue. It probably is not a protein film as such but a biofilm composed of bacterial colonies.
> 
> I suspect that they are often passed of as the plant products of accelerated photosynthesis, and hence why some proponents of the higher energy methods swear by frequent and substantial water changes. IME however, the same eutrophic ferts dosing that benefits plants also benefits bacteria, hence the often very thick biofilms after a day or two following a water change and ferts dosing.
> 
> ...



Or you can spend a lot of money on glassware that creates a surface vortex and pushes the biofilm back into the aquarium  ?


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## Tim Harrison (4 Feb 2012)

Exactly, but also IME sometimes there comes a point where the biofilm becomes so thick that it just concertinas up against the side of the tank in response to the flow, so other intervention is necessary, hence the water changes and/or the paper towel.


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## SJL (4 Feb 2012)

Cheers to you both for you responses i have been looking all over the net and both of your replies have come up on other forums and as much as the paper towel is a good method it just seems like a quick fix and to nail the source would be brilliant , i dont realy want to add a skimmer and as i have a few tetras in there at the mo there health comes first over aesthetics . ive read about using air stones at night and increasing the surface agitation would help but this is just one of many problems i trying to get on top off and im trying not to make other's worse.    e.g.  have just doubled light output from 1x 15w t8 to 2 15w t8's in a 60 ltr because nearly all the plants i put in the tank including very fast growing plants vallis and amazon swords etc are suffering some even melting and im dosing seachem flourish excel 1ml per day and their plant supplement 1 ml twice a week . sorry for the long reply but just trying to get some help for my tank and the best way i see is to give as much info as poss . so getting bk to film i wondering if the light will be effective with the 
fiml on top and by agitation will ruin my liquid co dosing?

cheers stuart


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## Tim Harrison (4 Feb 2012)

Don't worry too much, its all about balance and sometimes it can take time, and I am afraid money, to achieve what you are happiest with. The important thing is that you continue to experiment with the variables and parameters until you find your optimum. 

I guess I have always been very lucky, I seem to neglect my tanks and plants and they thrive almost despite this. I think there must be a tendency to kill them with kindness, sometimes. Maybe it helps to take a step back and just simply observe and work out where to go from there, if you get my meaning. 

In other words its easy to over complicate things. Sometimes the simple solutions such as using paper towel are the most effective even if they seem to be quick fixes; your tank is an artificial system and will require human intervention to maintain a healthy equilibrium, no matter how mundane or inappropriate that intervention appears.  

But if you want to nail the source - IMO if you are ferts and inorganic carbon dosing there is an excess above and beyond what your plants require, which is being utilised by bacteria and they are forming a biofilm. Maybe you could try to reduce the amount of both to a point where the plants are not suffering from limits to growth, under your current lighting regime, but at the same time leaving very little excess for biofilm formation. And/or carry out regular and substantial water changes. But when all said and done paper towel is less hassle though  .


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## Stu Worrall (5 Feb 2012)

SJL said:
			
		

> e.g.  have just doubled light output from 1x 15w t8 to 2 15w t8's in a 60 ltr because nearly all the plants i put in the tank including very fast growing plants vallis and amazon swords etc are suffering some even melting and im dosing seachem flourish excel 1ml per day and their plant supplement 1 ml twice a week . sorry for the long reply but just trying to get some help for my tank and the best way i see is to give as much info as poss . so getting bk to film i wondering if the light will be effective with the
> fiml on top and by agitation will ruin my liquid co dosing?
> 
> cheers stuart


Just to check but did you know that seachem flourish excel (and easycarbo) can damage (and melt) vallis?  Just wondering if this is one of the reasons you're getting the biofilm from them melting?

Also, I don't think that the liquid co2 can be affected by the surface agitation at night as its not in a gaseous form like pressurised co2 would be.


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## SJL (5 Feb 2012)

Interesting Stuworral , no i didnt know that could well be me killing the vallis....oh . would you suggest removal on next water change?  and on a plus hopefully that would be a positive with the flourish excel so i can set more surface agitation.
cheers stuart


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## hotweldfire (5 Feb 2012)

Dunno whether it's the vallis melt or not but I used to have this in a very bad way (mine wasn't vallis melt). Like thick sludge like stuff that wouldn't move at all. Dropped some amazonian frogbit in there and in three weeks problem gone. I think there are a couple of decent threads on the forum about this issue including one with Clive explaining it's about waste from plants (like Stu's saying in your case).


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

Troi said:
			
		

> But if you want to nail the source - IMO if you are ferts and inorganic carbon dosing there is an excess above and beyond what your plants require, which is being utilised by bacteria and they are forming a biofilm. Maybe you could try to reduce the amount of both to a point where the plants are not suffering from limits to growth, under your current lighting regime, but at the same time leaving very little excess for biofilm formation. And/or carry out regular and substantial water changes. But when all said and done paper towel is less hassle though  .



Troi, would you say that the biofilm, if it is because of what you mention above, could be avoided by the use of Purigen ?  If its taking out the organics that the above create, no biofilm maybe ? Just thinking aloud here.


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## Mark Evans (5 Feb 2012)

I find film is  a 'new tank' thing. Until everything stables out, just keep up good 'house keeping' so to speak.

I take it off with a plastic beaker daily. After a few weeks, it should go. I've not seen it on my 120cm for about 7 or 8 weeks now.


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## Matt Warner (5 Feb 2012)

I have also read that some slime coat dechlorinators can cause a surface film!


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> I find film is  a 'new tank' thing. Until everything stables out, just keep up good 'house keeping' so to speak.
> 
> I take it off with a plastic beaker daily. After a few weeks, it should go. I've not seen it on my 120cm for about 7 or 8 weeks now.



SIMPLES !  Thanks Mark, I am getting this on mine too.  Good to know there is a simple solution.


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## Tim Harrison (5 Feb 2012)

Hey guys in all honesty I do not know, but my observations (as a trained scientist) were that I never got the film thing going on until I started to add ferts. I am sure that all you guys are a lot more experienced with this sort of thing than I am, but maybe a fresh perspective puts a different angle on things.

I am always keen to learn from the experience of others, and I was hoping that a healthy discussion would result; which it has. In the meantime I agree whole heartedly, Marks plastic beaker idea is a simple and elegant solution and I will be using it. It's annoying when the answer is that simple and you did not think of it yourself. Mark no one likes a smart blahblahblahblah...but in your case I forgive you


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## Antipofish (5 Feb 2012)

Troi said:
			
		

> Hey guys in all honesty I do not know, but my observations (as a trained scientist) were that I never got the film thing going on until I started to add ferts. I am sure that all you guys are a lot more experienced with this sort of thing than I am, but maybe a fresh perspective puts a different angle on things.
> 
> I am always keen to learn from the experience of others, and I was hoping that a healthy discussion would result; which it has. In the meantime I agree whole heartedly, Marks plastic beaker idea is a simple and elegant solution and I will be using it. It's annoying when the answer is that simple and you did not think of it yourself. Mark no one likes a smart blahblahblahblah...but in your case I forgive you



Hi, mine definitely started way before I started adding ferts or had plants in. Each tank is different I guess.


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## Tim Harrison (6 Feb 2012)

Ok, as usual I will now qualify that statement...I have always had a biofilm but it has always been very thin and fragile and easy to disperse with minimum agitation. Once I started adding ferts it became like treacle. 

My cat thinks it's great and regularly climbs on to the piano to drink from the aquarium at its side. I had thought about pushing him in but then the mess he'd make of the tank wouldn't be worth it...or would it? :idea:  The random rescape might actually work! and I'd get a perverted sense of satisfaction.


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## Antipofish (6 Feb 2012)

Troi said:
			
		

> Ok, as usual I will now qualify that statement...I have always had a biofilm but it has always been very thin and fragile and easy to disperse with minimum agitation. Once I started adding ferts it became like treacle.
> 
> My cat thinks it's great and regularly climbs on to the piano to drink from the aquarium at its side. I had thought about pushing him in but then the mess he'd make of the tank wouldn't be worth it...or would it? :idea:  The random rescape might actually work! and I'd get a perverted sense of satisfaction.



LOL. MY film was there from the start and is no worse (yet) after 4 days of starting my ferts dosing.

Re the cat. I had one who regularly slept on the lid of my tank as the lights warmed it up (It was a tropiquarium).  One day I was doing some maintenance inside the tank and had the lid up, which the cat did not realise.  Jumped up to get on the lid as usual and found no lid !  SPLASH.  Oddly, the very next day she was back on that lid and couldn't care less. Cats are even more contrary than people so you might find yours continues to drink from it, but just changes where she pees !  And for pushing her in, it just might be your bed.  Hahaha.


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## George Farmer (6 Feb 2012)

I still get a film now and again. 

It's just something I'm happy to live with.  Sometimes it goes for weeks, then comes back for no apparent reason.  All dosing, maintenance practices etc. remaining constant.

Interestingly my shrimp seem to enjoy sitting just below the water line on some protruding wood and constantly grazing on whatever bacteria etc. live in this 'film/scum/biofilm'.  So I'm happy to compromise on a minor aesthetic issue if it's providing food for my shrimp.  I'll try to get an image to share.  It's fascinating seeing their little claws scraping the surface like the clappers!


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## Tim Harrison (6 Feb 2012)

> Cats are even more contrary than people so you might find yours continues to drink from it, but just changes where she pees ! And for pushing her in, it just might be your bed. Hahaha.



Sorry a lot off topic, but Scruffy (the cat) has already cost me a fortune in bed linen and quilts; hence the almost overwhelming urge to push him in the tank. Curiously though he not the least bit interested in the fish.



> It's just something I'm happy to live with. Sometimes it goes for weeks, then comes back for no apparent reason. All dosing, maintenance practices etc. remaining constant.



That is very intriguing, perhaps it reflects a boom bust type life cycle of the bacteria or whatever it is?



> Interestingly my shrimp seem to enjoy sitting just below the water line on some protruding wood and constantly grazing on whatever bacteria etc. live in this 'film/scum/biofilm'. So I'm happy to compromise on a minor aesthetic issue if it's providing food for my shrimp. I'll try to get an image to share. It's fascinating seeing their little claws scraping the surface like the clappers!



That would make a good image. I know it's not quite the same thing but I have also noticed snails doing that...but not with little claws though...that would just be wrong.


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## Antipofish (6 Feb 2012)

George Farmer said:
			
		

> I still get a film now and again.
> 
> It's just something I'm happy to live with.  Sometimes it goes for weeks, then comes back for no apparent reason.  All dosing, maintenance practices etc. remaining constant.
> 
> Interestingly my shrimp seem to enjoy sitting just below the water line on some protruding wood and constantly grazing on whatever bacteria etc. live in this 'film/scum/biofilm'.  So I'm happy to compromise on a minor aesthetic issue if it's providing food for my shrimp.  I'll try to get an image to share.  It's fascinating seeing their little claws scraping the surface like the clappers!



Sounds interesting George.  I look forward to seeing the pic


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## Ady34 (6 Feb 2012)

I had a water surface film when my tank was newly set up, and more recently the day before my crypts started to melt, my conclusion its the plants releasing proteins or something when theyre 'stressed' or in need of something there not getting fert wise. In my opinion a film is not a good sign and relates to an imbalance or an imminent problem. No scientific proof however just my feeling.


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## Phil Gout (6 Feb 2012)

I find that using Microbe-Lift Special Blend does the trick, use the 'maintenance' every two weeks.

Works for me.


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## Tim Harrison (6 Feb 2012)

> I had a water surface film when my tank was newly set up, and more recently the day before my crypts started to melt, my conclusion its the plants releasing proteins or something when theyre 'stressed' or in need of something there not getting fert wise. In my opinion a film is not a good sign and relates to an imbalance or an imminent problem. No scientific proof however just my feeling.



Interesting theory but my plants are doing well and I have a scum the thickness of treacle, and since they are in soil and benefiting from ferts dosing I think I've got any deficiencies well covered.


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## Mark Evans (8 Feb 2012)

I've said this couple of times before, but I find gouramis to do a great job on keeping the surface clean. 

I believe they're surface breathers, and in doing so, somehow help keep the film off the water surface. 

Whenever I've had them, my water surface has always been spotless. The natural coloured ones don't look out of place in many set ups and could be a great addition.

Give em a try...


gouramis1 by saintly's pics, on Flickr


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## NeilW (8 Feb 2012)

Wonder if carbon or Purigen in the filter would help?


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## Antipofish (8 Feb 2012)

NeilW said:
			
		

> Wonder if carbon or Purigen in the filter would help?



Neil, it makes no difference unless the water surface is being broken.  When I have my return flow sub surface I get the film, when I have the return above then its clear.  By breaking up whatever it is and dispersing back into the water column, however, the carbon and purigen would be able to have the chemical action on it I imagine.


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## Greg's Pea (8 Feb 2012)

I've noticed that the healthier my plant growth is, the less scum is an issue. Until I go silly with frozen BW feedings, which seems inevitable


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## Alastair (8 Feb 2012)

It was on a post somewhere on this forum by Clive, where it was stated that it can be a sign of sick plants and that they give this film off if not well. So if it's not from food or anything airborn, then it could be that plants arent happy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GHNelson (11 Apr 2012)

Mark Evans said:
			
		

> I find film is  a 'new tank' thing. Until everything stables out, just keep up good 'house keeping' so to speak.
> 
> I take it off with a plastic beaker daily. After a few weeks, it should go. I've not seen it on my 120cm for about 7 or 8 weeks now.


Yip Mark
Totally agree
Ive had this recently...in a new set up.
Think its part and parcel of setting up a immature system.
I didn't let it bother me that much I just raised the pipe up to have more surface movement.
I didn't even bother skimming it off just blasted it with the outlet pipe to break it up.
The scum disappeared eventually.
Cheers
hoggie


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## tim (12 Apr 2012)

i've had thick surface scum on my dwarf puffer tank since its been set up 8 months ago its gone from high tech ei ferts to low tech no ferts scum never went. surface agitation with the spray bar just turned it into huge white bubbles. in the end i modified a small hob filter intake with an acrylic u bend drilled holes and covered with a pre filter sponge and it works for me not the most unobtrusive solution but is well hidden surface has been clear for a couple of months now will post some pics next time i clean it for anyone thats interested.


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## geaves (12 Apr 2012)

tim said:
			
		

> i've had thick surface scum on my dwarf puffer tank since its been set up 8 months ago its gone from high tech ei ferts to low tech no ferts scum never went. surface agitation with the spray bar just turned it into huge white bubbles. in the end i modified a small hob filter intake with an acrylic u bend drilled holes and covered with a pre filter sponge and it works for me not the most unobtrusive solution but is well hidden surface has been clear for a couple of months now will post some pics next time i clean it for anyone thats interested.



Tim that would be great a few pictures, because I'm seriously looking toward a HOB on the current setup purely as an experiment for a slightly larger tank, would be interested to know what HOB, I've been looking at AquaEl from an online retailer in Ireland. The AquaEl having a higher lph than I've seen on others, well on paper anyway.


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## tim (12 Apr 2012)

i only use this hob to clear surface scum main filter is a cristalprofi hob filter was just a chep azoo mingion i had lying around will post some pics saturday it's due a clean then. the fluval edge comes with an aqua clear hob filter not sure of the lph but i'm collapsing one down in about 3 weeks so your welcome to it if you wanna cover postage.


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## geaves (12 Apr 2012)

tim said:
			
		

> i only use this hob to clear surface scum main filter is a cristalprofi hob filter was just a chep azoo mingion i had lying around will post some pics saturday it's due a clean then. the fluval edge comes with an aqua clear hob filter not sure of the lph but i'm collapsing one down in about 3 weeks so your welcome to it if you wanna cover postage.


Thanks for the offer, that would be great, drop me a pm when you have it ready......I know the edge HOb's can be uprated by replacing the impeller. I don't have room for a canister on the next tank so a hob or wet/dry is the only option, but I would also like to clear the internal on my current cube just for aesthetics and again a hob is an obvious choice.


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## tim (18 Apr 2012)

few pics of hob




acrylic u bend with pre filter sponge



attached to hob intake



sits nicely in the corner not the most discreet solution but it seems to work and it will be hidden behind a piece of bog wood eventually 



filter chamber is stuffed with filter floss hope this is of help


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## geaves (18 Apr 2012)

Crude but ingenious.


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## Aqua sobriquet (18 Apr 2012)

Nah, This is what you need:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/06/07/hand ... aquariums/


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## tim (18 Apr 2012)

did say it wasn't pretty but i knocked it up in about 10 mins with stuff i had lying around so cost wise all good


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## Aqua sobriquet (18 Apr 2012)

Only joking, _If_ you could get one of those glass ones it would set you back about £100!  :?


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## tim (18 Apr 2012)

looking at it if i spent a little more time i could make the u bend much prettier but i'd still be using the hob to power it nice piece of glassware though


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## Aqua sobriquet (19 Apr 2012)

This might also be of use?

http://www.swelluk.com/aquarium/fish-ta ... 49181.html


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