# Help - Algae Outbreak!



## swackett (29 May 2008)

I recently decided to upgrade the 2x40w T8 tubes that came with the Roma 240 tank to 2x54w T5 tubes.
At present the plants do not seem to be growing very fast and I have most forms of algae growing in the tank (e.g. hair, fuzz, green). I am using 4 kh solution in a drop checker and this indicates a nice green colour and with the new lights the plants are now pearling like mad which they did not do under the T8's, so I do not think co2 is a problem.

I guess that nutrients are lacking in the tank and would like some help to try and determine how to remove the algae and so get the tank and plants back to looking their best.

Any help much appreciated, thanks.

Tank: Fluval Roma 240
Lights: 2x54w T5 Arcadia Plant pro (lights on for 10 hours with 2 hour break)
Filter: Fluval 305
C02: JBL pressurised at 1 bps (on 1 hour before lights and off 1 hour before lights)
Substrate: Sand/gravel over Tropica Plant Substrate
Fertiliser: 20ml Tropica plant nutrition once a week
Water Change: 10-15% once a week
Nitrate: 7.5
PH: 7
KH: 8
Phosphate: 0.25 (Rowaphos in filter)
Iron: 0.1


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## Ed Seeley (29 May 2008)

Well two things that sprang to my attention were that you're dosing once a week meaning you have large amounts of nutrients which will then decline over the week.  What you really want is stable conditions so maybe dosing more regularly would help with that.  A number of people on here use Tropica Nutrition daily.  Looking again it looks like you're using just TPN, not the one with Nitrates and Phosphates so are you dosing any macros?  With higher lights and CO2 you'll need some macros.

The other thing was the water changes.  As you're having a few algae issues I'd up the water changes to 50% a week, maybe more often than that, syphoning off as much algae as possible.

Oh and don't worry about the test kit readings.  Nitrate, Phosphate and Iron tests are very inaccurate at the best of times.


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## ceg4048 (29 May 2008)

Um...It also looks like you are actually trying to get rid of phosphates (Rowaphos?). This explains why you are having algae problems. As Ed says, all of your test kit readings are suspect, but if you are not alarmed at the fact that your nitrates are only reading 7.5 then I have to conclude that you fundamentally believe that nutrients cause algae. If you continue to believe that you'll never get rid of your algae.

Another fundamental error is to assume that your CO2 is adequate just because your drop checker is green. It could be that you don't have enough flow or that you need it to be slightly yellow.

Your algae problems will go away when you stop believing that Nitrates and Phosphates are bad. Algae is caused by the combination of ammonia and your 108 watts of T5.

As you can see also, turning off your lights for 2 hours per day doesn't help.
Have a close look at the sticky article in the algae section.

You need to start doing 50% water changes at least twice a week for a while to lower the ammonia concentration and to lower remove algal spores. You also need to dose NPK, and quick.

Cheers,


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## swackett (30 May 2008)

Thanks for the quick response and advice guys,

We were initially told by our LFS that Rowaphos will remove phosphate which is the cause of algae, having read some of the articles on this very informative site I can now see this is inaccurate and will remove the Rowaphos straight away.  I will also start to dose nutrients more regularly that 1 once a week to try and get a stable environment.

We have some Seachem Potassium on order, should I also be thinking about getting a separate Iron supplement as well as Tropica Plant Nutrient + ?

I know test kits are not 100% accurate, but should I be aiming for as an optimum level of nitrate and phosphate in the tank?


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## ceg4048 (30 May 2008)

Hi,
     Dependence on test kit readings will ultimately doom you. They actually can be 100% accurate on any given day and then 0% accurate on any other given day. The problem is that you never know _which_ day is which. Do yourself a favor and put your test kits on the highest shelf in the house, out of your own reach.

Having too much nutrients in the tank is never a problem. Having too little is the problem. If you dose the requisite amount of nutrients then you know that you have enough and you never have to measure it...ever. If you try to modulate the nutrient values between some minimum and maximum you will be riding on a hamster wheel endlessly testing and adjusting. I know it seems counterintuitive but you would do well to forget that you even know how to _spell_ test kit. It wouldn't surprise me if the bozos in that LFS of yours had suggested test kits to you. Throw them away, get over it and lets get that tank sorted out.  

If you get TPN+ you won't need anything else because it contains NPK and traces. No other supplements needed.

When you catch your breath have a read of this dosing article+> viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211

Remember to dose immediately after every water change. Hopefully you are doing at least a 50% water change at a frequency of at least twice a week.

Cheers,


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## planter (30 May 2008)

Told you it was a good forum   TPN+ will sort out your algae issues im sure.


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## swackett (30 May 2008)

Test Kit? - What's that !!

Okay, I'll get TPN+ and start a dosing regime asap.

I'm also thinking of getting substrate capsules as my Tropica substrate has been in the tank for 10 months and is probably running a little low on nutrients now.


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## ceg4048 (30 May 2008)

Sorry, No. Spend your money buying more plants or more cool gadgets like bigger filters or fancy glass doo-dads. These are aquatic plants and under high lighting they feed primarily through the leaves via the water column. Instead of capsules just dose more TPN+. Easy...  

Cheers,


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## ceg4048 (30 May 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Test Kit? - What's that !!



Attaboy...


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## swackett (30 May 2008)

I'm just wondering how people do a 50% water change, is there an easy way as that would be about 120L with my tank and will take a while using 14L buckets!

Thanks,


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## ceg4048 (30 May 2008)

Hi,
    Easy. Mostly this involves long runs of tubing connected to pumps or powerheads. A python is the most famous ( you can get one here http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalo ... roduct1032 ), but the same idea can be approximated. Check any of these threads:


http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=91

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1729

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1046&p=9650&hilit=python#p9650


Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (30 May 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering how people do a 50% water change, is there an easy way as that would be about 120L with my tank and will take a while using 14L buckets!
> 
> Thanks,


Have a look here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1729


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## swackett (30 May 2008)

Hi,

Thanks for the information on the python , I think I'm going to make my own one from garden hose and hozelock connectors as my sink is about 20m from my tank!



> Ceg4048:
> As you can see also, turning off your lights for 2 hours per day doesn't help.
> Have a close look at the sticky article in the algae section.



I've looked through the sticky in the Algae section and cannot see any information in there pointing to how long the lights should be on for.  Could you point me in the right direction?  Should I just keep the lights on for a solid 10 hours?

Thanks for you help

Steve


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## ceg4048 (30 May 2008)

I'm still trying to recall where this siesta concept came from and which threads the arguments against were offered. I think it might have been from a vendor website. In any case, a better lighting sequence for your plants would more appropriately simulate the normal diurnal sequence such that the day begins with low light-> increases to high noon -> then lowers to sunset. This is not a spiritual concept but instead is a practical one: In the morning we need to raise the CO2 level as quickly as possible so that the plants are not limited by the poor availability of the gas, but this is not always feasible due to the quantity of water and the inefficiency of the diffusers. So it is unlikely that there is the target 30 ppm concentration by the time the lights go on in the morning. 

More light always requires more CO2 - always, so instead of turning on the full lighting level, just turn on half and let that run for a few hours. This allows the CO2 concentration to ramp up but the lower lighting reduces the CO2 demand from the plants.  After a few hours you can then have max lighting because the tank water will now be fully saturated. After a few hours of max lighting by late afternoon the plants will actually start to use less and will prepare to shut down for the night so you can again lower the light and shut off the CO2. This saves on the lighting bill if you are energy conscious.

So you could have a lighting sequence like 50% power->100% power->50% power. The timing and intervals of the last two are less important than the first. Try to have 50% for the first two hours or so to give your diffusers a chance to get the tank saturated properly. This sequence idea is by no means cast in stone. As you gain experience you will have a better idea how to play with these factors to fit the plants and your lifestyle.

There are a lot of chemical and physiological changes that occur both in higher plants and in algae during the change from night to day. Remember that photosynthesis and food production in plants is a very complicated affair involving hundreds of enzyme actions and probably thousands of individual chemical reactions which must all be choreographed by the plants regulatory systems. Because algae are of much simpler construction, they respond much more easily to lights on-off-on. Higher plants having much more complex systems are at a disadvantage when the lights are suddenly shut off and then turned back on. Think about the fuel efficiency of your car when you are in heavy start-stop-start traffic as opposed to being out on the motorway. There is simply no advantage to shutting down the lights in the middle of the photoperiod and there are arguably, disadvantages.

"Noonday Siestas" should be thrown out on the same rubbish tip as the "LFS lower your phosphates" philosophy.

Cheers,


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## swackett (31 May 2008)

Thanks for the reply,

The problem is that I only have 2x54w tubes in the Roma and these are on the same control unit so cannot control the tubes separately.  In this case is it best to have the lights on without a break for 10 hours?  I guess the siesta thing is another way some people attain to having successfully limited algae growth.

I am buying a 4x24w Arcadia luminaire for my other tank and will set this up as recommended on the â€œSetting up a higher tech planted tankâ€ article (i.e 50% for 4 hours, 100% for 2 hours and 50% for the remaining 4 hours). 

Would you recommend using Flourish Excel after prunning / water change?  I have read this helps limit algae growth and therefore it is a good idea to dose when the tank changes.


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## ceg4048 (31 May 2008)

Hi,
    Yes, if you cannot control the lamps individually then go ahead and simply delete the siesta. What you can do for the moment is just limit the total duration by an hour or two and to turn your gas on even earlier to ensure higher CO2 concentration levels by the time lights go on. There is no way algae growth will be limited by implementation of siesta. Algal growth can only be limited by manipulating the environment so as to optimize plant health.  Since turning off the lights stops food production in plants there is no advantage per se, however if you are also starving your plants of their basic nutritional requirements then there is limited food production anyway so this may help slow algae during the dark periods. :? But this is is like starving you kids and then limiting their exercise so that they don't use up what little energy they have.

Excel is a good, if expensive product that provides an alternative supply of CO2. Profito Easycarbo is an identical product which I believe is a little less expensive. The form of this CO2 is in a complex which most higher plants can metabolize but which algae cannot. It is a highly toxic product (so keep kids away) and is also toxic to algae and some plants. As a result it can be used to help rid the tank of some algae and at the same time help to supplement your gas injection.

You can dose it daily and at water change to help but by itself it doesn't solve the problem. All other efforts must be in place such as proper nutrient dosing and tank cleaning, physical algae removal etc. There is no relation to pruning. This is strictly an alternative CO2 source with mild algecidal properties.

Cheers,


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## swackett (31 May 2008)

Just spent the last 4 hours removing algae infested plants/leaves, did a 50% water change with bucket (not sorted out syphon yet) and planted lots more Rotala Rotundifolia, Rotala wallichii, Hygrophila poly "rosanervig" amoungst others so we now have a lot more of substrate covered with plants (about 80%).

Inserted JBL balls in substrate for swords and moved the filter inlet to the same side of tank as the outlet, and removed Rowaphos from filter.

Finally dosed with Excel and TPN+ (5ml per day to start with and will increase 10ml per day)

Fingers crossed


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## ceg4048 (31 May 2008)

Hi,
    5 ml TPN per day on a 240L may be insufficient. Check this thread for some TPN+ dosing ideas: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1386

Cheers,


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## swackett (1 Jun 2008)

Thanks,
Yeah at the suggested dose of 1ml per 20l I should be adding 12ml per day.

Cheers,


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## planter (1 Jun 2008)

any chance of some tank pics steve? before and afters are always useful for reference.


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## swackett (1 Jun 2008)

yep sure,

I'll just get the tripod and camera out and post a few pictures soon.  Just off to LFS to replace my broken spiro I bought yesterday and get some nice sharp JBL scissors.


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## swackett (1 Jun 2008)

Here is the tank before the clean out with fuzz Algae on the swords, some possible blue/green algae on the rotala's and hair algae coming off the rotalas






Played around with layout and add new wood (weighed down it kind of resembles a crab!), not sure about the aquascape yet.





One thing is that water is still quite cloudy, could this be the filter?


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## ceg4048 (1 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> ...One thing is that water is still quite cloudy, could this be the filter?



No, some of the cloudiness is due to fine suspended particles but mostly this is due to bacterial buildup both in the filter as well as the water and substrate. I consider this a good thing and it will clear within a few days to a few weeks. The bigger the tank the longer it takes to clear. This is the least of your worries. As the plants get healthier and CO2 is sorted you'll see improvements in clarity.

Cheers,


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## swackett (16 Jun 2008)

Hi,

2 weeks in and after dosing 10ml of TPN+ each day, doing a 50% water change once or twice a week we still seem to have brown, hair and possible cladophora algae.  I've turned up the c02 now so the drop checker is more yellow than green, the plants are now growing a lot better than before however which is good, it just the algae is still around.

Am I being impatient and will the algae go over time or should I be doing something else to help eradicate it?

Could it be the circulation is a little to low (fluval 305)?

Cheers

Steve


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## ceg4048 (16 Jun 2008)

Hi Steve,
              Well, sadly, based on our typical 10X tank volume per hour turnover rule of thumb, I believe that you are woefully underfiltered. I believe the 305 has only a 700 LPH rating and in my opinion you really need something on the order of 2400 LPH rating. Do Not allow the wife to see this post because she will no doubt faint. I'm sure she would rather buy something boring like a dishwasher but adding more filtration would be my choice. Something like an Eheim 2080 or an FX5 would fit the bill nicely.

In order to compensate for the lower flow you will be forced to add more TPN+ (Â£Â£Â£) and more CO2 (Â£Â£Â£) and more Excel/Easycarbo (Â£Â£Â£). For this size tank you may want to consider the dry powder dosing solution in lieu of TPN+.

Cheers,


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (16 Jun 2008)

10 times?? really Clive?

I run a 305 on a 235 litre with no issues.  I do however run a powerhead to wash out the dead spots due to scaping.

I can remember back in the old days when 3 times turnover was considered excessive!

Be wary of TPN+ Ive used it and had algae issues until I stopped using it and went back to dry ferts again.  I get the feeling its a hell of alot stronger than is advertised, but without accurate testing we cant confirm this.  Anyway, once Id gone back to dry most of my issues went.

Id be interested to discuss this filter issue further though.

edit: incidentally.. the 305 is 1000lph, not 700


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## ceg4048 (16 Jun 2008)

Hi Matt,
            Remember we are talking about filter rating, not filter delivery. The target turnover is 3X-5X tank volume per hour. Filter ratings however are optimistic and you'll find that in real life they only deliver about 50% of their rating when all the friction and restrictions such as media, dirt and CO2 diffusers are taken into account. Additionally, the head pressure varies based on the distance below the water level. When you take all that into account you'll find that using the 10X rating rule gets you to a good flow. Yes, you can use powerheads to augment the flow, however, my preference is to use higher rated filters because you get the benefit of higher filtration and thus better ammonia removal. The higher the lighting, the more important this feature becomes since the organic waste production rate is higher. The additional advantage over powerheads is that you don't have to look at a powerhead so it's easier on your aquascape.  

In low light, non-CO2 tanks this is not nearly as critical because the organic waste production is so much lower, but in a high light tank the story is different. Remember that we want to deliver nutrients and CO2 to the surface of the leaf more efficiently and to remove the waste products as quickly as possible. We also want to churn the water to prevent as much as possible detritus from settling (which then breaks down to NH4).

I think you'll find that higher flow rates help to erase a lot of mistakes in the tanks, and raises the efficiency of the dosing and injection schemes.   

Cheers mate,


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (16 Jun 2008)

Interesting  yeah I realise that the outputs are dependent on all sorts like media, head and wotnots.  Ive been quite happy for a while with a 305 on a 235 litre. 

I remember reading a year ago or so, I think it was Tom Barr actually, suggesting that a low flow was preferable in a planted tank as it rattled out less CO2 and filtered out less nutrients.. so on that basis, your comment on raising ferts due to low flow goes against that in a big way. Obviously Tom doesnt know everything! Its just interesting to see such a widely different point of view.

I do agree though that you need the circulation to get nutrients and co2 around the tank, but a carefully placed spray bar and a good sized powerhead can accomplish this with no problems at all.. it does necessitate a good filter cleaning regime though to keep up flow to a constant level.

Anyway  I think sorting out all the other issues in Steve's tank is a much higher priority over changing the filter.. I know what its like, when youre having issues like this its easy to ignore the most fundamental things, and try to purchase your way out of trouble.. we've all done it.

Steve change to PMDD ferts rather than TPN+.. it will be much easier for you to control things as Clive has already suggested. Switching to an Estimative Index schedule would be highly preferable in my opinion, combined with good maintenance.


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## ceg4048 (16 Jun 2008)

Hi Matt,
Well, Barr might have possibly been talking about Non-CO2 tanks for low flow. I can't quite remember the thread but some time ago he came to the realization that even with EI dosing people were still experiencing a lot of algae issues, primarily CO2 related, so he started emphasizing nutrient delivery via flow. What we do know is that there is a preponderance of evidence that there is a night and day difference between low flow and high flow in highly lit tanks, and that the tank is way more forgiving and efficient at higher flows. The higher the flow, the more forgiving. Another thing that people don't realize is that as the plants grow  it becomes more and more difficult to deliver nutrients/CO2 due to blockage so the 10X rule helps you down the road even if it seems a bit high at first.

Uptake by the plant leaf is attenuated by a thin boundary layer between the leaf surface and the water column. This layer of zero or low velocity water is referred to as "The Prandtl Layer" and occurs at the interface of all surfaces making contact with fluids in motion. The velocity very near the leaf surface slows due to friction. In plants this boundary layer is a problem because the uptake mechanism is via osmosis from a more concentrated nutrient area (the water column) to a less concentrated area (the leaf's aqueous solution). The thicker the layer, the more isolated the water column's nutrients are since the leaf uses the nutrients within the layer first, then nutrients must diffuse from the water column into the layer and then to the leaf. Higher flow reduces the thickness of the boundary layer and in a way force feeds the leaf by constantly refreshing the layer with new nutrient supply.

Additionally, if there is detritus on or near the leaf (which constantly occurs) and if this detritus decays, then you have NH4 buildup at the leaf surface. The leaf will uptake some NH4 but in the presence of high light algae are adept at sensing and responding to the NH4 loading rate. High flow helps to rid the leaf surface of waste and detritus to minimize this threat.

Based on this, my feeling is that in fact, poor filtration exacerbates the other problems in the tank and should be considered a high priority instead of an afterthought. You will often see where filters are suggested for certain tank sizes by the vendors or by the manufacturers, but for high light tanks these ratings are totally meaningless.

George has pretty good luck with TPN+ but his water is already high in nitrate and phosphate so it's often very difficult to zoom in on the right dosages for another persons water area. From a cost standpoint EI dosing will bring better value. JamesC tested ammonia and urea dosing for a while. You can see the interesting discussion in this thread:=> viewtopic.php?f=11&t=925

Cheers,


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## swackett (17 Jun 2008)

Thanks for the very imformative replies guys,

I've notice the flow if very slow along the front of the tank and a lot of malm, muck, dead leaves etc seem to build up around the tennelus.  The approach Ceg uses with multiply spray bars at the back pointing forwards makes sense to me as you get even flow right along the tank.

Matt, I think we already use an EI method ( 50% weekly water changes and dosing TPN+ daily) as well as pottasium 3 times a week, or am I missing something  :?

I'm just trying to figure out if buying a new filter will fix the problem or as Matt said there is something else that is not quite right.

Cheers


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (17 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Thanks for the very imformative replies guys,
> 
> I've notice the flow if very slow along the front of the tank and a lot of malm, muck, dead leaves etc seem to build up around the tennelus.  The approach Ceg uses with multiply spray bars at the back pointing forwards makes sense to me as you get even flow right along the tank.
> 
> ...



TNP+ isnt really EI Im afraid. Its a different sort of regime. 

You need to be dosing dry ferts to be following EI. Have a look in my sig for a very nifty program that will work it all out for you. Makes life alot easier.  While TPN+ does contain everything, the amounts of each are vry hard to control and not altogether clear. By dosing dry powder you have absolute control over everything, which Im sure youll agree is highly desirable.


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## swackett (17 Jun 2008)

Excellent calculator Matt,  Thanks - I'll look into PMDD


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## ceg4048 (17 Jun 2008)

Hi,
    Remember that EI is not married to dry powders. They can each have other partners. EI is just a concept that is based on always having unlimited levels of nutrients in the water column. Thats all. You can achieve that with any brand of ferts but you need to know what concentrations are being dosed with the type of ferts being used. For commercial ferts that might mean some more maths, or (heaven forbid) measuring concentration levels. Dry powders just makes it easier to make adjustments, does not require measurements and the powders are loads cheaper. The quantities are already known so the maths are easier. See this article for more details:=> viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211

Cheers,


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (17 Jun 2008)

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Remember that EI is not married to dry powders. They can each have other partners. EI is just a concept that is based on always having unlimited levels of nutrients in the water column. Thats all. You can achieve that with any brand of ferts but you need to know what concentrations are being dosed with the type of ferts being used. For commercial ferts that might mean some more maths, or (heaven forbid) measuring concentration levels. Dry powders just makes it easier to make adjustments, does not require measurements and the powders are loads cheaper. The quantities are already known so the maths are easier. See this article for more details:=> viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1211
> 
> Cheers,



yep, as I said.


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## swackett (17 Jun 2008)

Ok, so going by the your very good dosing article, we have about at 60g tank, so we would need to dose the following 3 x a week  ?? :?: 

KNO3 - 9/16 tsp
KH2PO4 - 3/16 tsp
MgSO4 - 1  1/2 tsp

and the following 2 x a week
CSM +B - 3/16 tsp

Steve


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## ceg4048 (17 Jun 2008)

Yes, exactly. What could be easier?    You can also use the NutriCalc software in Matt's Signature. Very useful and it will yield similar dosing instructions. In some tanks, depending on the configuration, you may need to add more of one powder, so it's easier to add just that instead of everything. You may also find that you can get by with less of one powder or another so you have more flexibility. You can find the powders at AE. They are even cheaper at Garden Direct.  

Cheers,


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## swackett (17 Jun 2008)

Looking at the calculator and trying to figure out how much power of each I need to buy, am I aiming for 20ppm for KN03, 3ppm for KH2P04 and 7ppm for MgS04?

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (17 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Looking at the calculator and trying to figure out how much power of each I need to buy, am I aiming for 20ppm for KN03, 3ppm for KH2P04 and 7ppm for MgS04?
> 
> Thanks



Well, the target ppms are always the same so don't use those numbers otherwise you will go crazy. Look over to the right in the upper corner and you will see two radio buttons: one for teaspoon dry and the other for grams dry. Just select the grams dry and then look below. There are three columns of gray boxes containing the weights. The first of the three column (gr) shows you the weekly consumption of each powder in grams. Can you see that if you enter 240 liters (make sure the litres radio button is selected!) in the tank size box you weekly consumption of KNO3 is 46.685 grams? So ten weeks worth of KNO3 can be serviced by a half kilo. Similarly, a weeks worth of KH2PO4 is 13.198 grams so ten weeks worth can be served by a quarter of a kilo.

Hope this makes sense.  

Cheers,


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## swackett (17 Jun 2008)

Thanks for the info, however I think you may have typed in 240 US gal's instead of selecting 240 Litres as the amounts are very high, under litres KN03 is 11.15g a week, KH2P04 is 3.15g a week  -   

Thanks again the help is much appreciated,

Steve


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## ceg4048 (17 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, however I think you may have typed in 240 US gal's instead of selecting 240 Litres as the amounts are very high, under litres KN03 is 11.15g a week, KH2P04 is 3.15g a week  -
> 
> Thanks again the help is much appreciated,
> 
> Steve


Yes, you are right! I should take my own advice (duh)!..   

Cheers,


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## swackett (17 Jun 2008)

Just seen some BGA on the bottom   !! and removed it.

Also seem the fuzz and brown algae seems to be coming back.


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## ceg4048 (17 Jun 2008)

Not sure about the ID of fuzz and brown. Could you check JamesC's algae ID page and clarify? http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

There is a strong possibility you'll need to increase the TPN+ dosage until you get your powders.

Cheers,


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## swackett (18 Jun 2008)

The hygrophilia polysperma's new leaves do seem to be more of a brown colour rather than a nice green.

I've ordered the powders, should get those by Thursday.


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## swackett (18 Jun 2008)

Looking at James' page, we have some Cladophora amongst the base of the Tennelus at the front of the tank, Brown Algae on the Java fern and Anubias, and a fuzz like algae on the sword leaves, however the GSA now seems to have gone (for now)!

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2008)

Yeah, definitely the proper EI dosing regime will solve most of those but you will also need to up the CO2. Once you improve your filtration life will be much easier.

Cheers,


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## swackett (18 Jun 2008)

How far do you go with the C02 as I don't want to kill the fish, at the moment the drop checker is just beyoud green going on yellow.


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (18 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> How far do you go with the C02 as I don't want to kill the fish, at the moment the drop checker is just beyoud green going on yellow.



Theyll gasp at the surface quite a bit before theyll die, so youll get fair warning. Mine will go pretty damn yellow before the fish start complaining, but I do have a reasonable surface agitation so o2 is fairly good.. remember its not CO2 that kills fish, but lack of O2.. as CO2 gets higher, itll push out the O2 though, so there is a balance.  Also, if your plants are pearling like mad, O2 partial pressure will be higher than average, so a nicely singing tank can deal with quite a high CO2 load.


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## swackett (18 Jun 2008)

In order to keep the detritus out do you use vacuums (like this one http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/addtobasket.asp?skid=2006 to clean the substrate of your tanks or just the siphon when doing a water change?

Just wondering as to keep the substrate nice a clean and so help prevent algae with a siphon I'd have to keep taking water out which is a bit time consuming.

Thanks


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2008)

Hi,
    I have one of these and I think it is among the most useless inventions ever. All it does is pull the detritus up from the sediment and dumps it and ammonia into the water column. There is a trap inside which holds larger particles but most of it exits from the cage.

When I do my water change I use a tube to siphon water from the tank. At the end of the tube I attach a filter inlet strainer. I have spare strainers from my Eheim filters. If the diameters don't match you can usually jerry-rig a combination of tube sizes that works. then you can insert the strainer end right into the substrate and the siphon pulls the dirt away out of the tank. That failing just hold the tube end by your first or second knuckle and poke the fingertip into the sediment to dislodge detritus. You can get good at it if you practice so you don't remove too much gravel.   Make sure you vacuum the back side of the tank behind the bushes. Detritus collects on the tangled roots back there and becomes a source of ammonia. Remove as many aerial roots as you have the patience to do.  Tangled roots block flow, traps detritus and is unattractive.

Cheers,


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## swackett (18 Jun 2008)

Thanks,  I'll try that now as I'm just about to do a 50% water change

Here are some pictures of the Algae in the tank

Brown - You can see some fuzz on the sword leaves at the back





hair




general


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## ceg4048 (18 Jun 2008)

Yep, textbook malnutrition. More nutrients, more flow and more CO2. Do this an in about a month you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

Cheers,


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## swackett (19 Jun 2008)

I've upped the doseage of TPN+ to 15ml daily and turned up the C02 - (Probably have to get a larger refillable bottle now!)


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## ceg4048 (19 Jun 2008)

Oh, yeah... I forgot to tell you the bad news. Your carbon footprint will now be size 48...  


Cheers,


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## swackett (19 Jun 2008)

Probably have the tax man banging at the door with some new tax for c02 usage !!


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## JamesM (19 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Probably have the tax man banging at the door with some new tax for c02 usage !!


Shhh, don't give them ideas


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## swackett (19 Jun 2008)

Just ordered a 2KG JBL bottle from LFS


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## swackett (23 Jun 2008)

I also think that as a result of changing to T5 lights there is a lot more heat output from the tubes and because these are in the hood the heat is trapped and so heats the water.  Last night the temp was between 28 and 29!

I have read that high temerature can help algae grow, also 28 is about the limit for most fish.

Any thoughts of temp and algae?


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## ceg4048 (23 Jun 2008)

Yes, higher temperature makes everything grow faster but that's just life. Unless you want to invest in cooling fans the only thing you can do is to shorten the photoperiod. Discus and tetras do OK in high temperatures. The limiting factor seems to be dissolved oxygen, which is lower at higher temperatures, but if your plants are doing well then they are oxygenating the water. Just do more frequent water changes to keep organic waste at a low level (and to lower the temperature) and you should be fine.

Cheers,


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## swackett (24 Jun 2008)

Think I sussed it !

The heater needs to be re-calibrated, I turned it down a degree from 23 to 22 and temp when down a degree from 27 to 26 - Looks like it is 4 degrees out for some reason.  It used to be ok - Odd!


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## swackett (26 Jun 2008)

Just thought I'd post an update,

I've turned up the co2, got a Rhinox 5000 and am dosing 15ml TPN+ daily with a 50% water change each week.  The plants now seem to be growing a lot better than before, the algae does not seem to be spreading anymore and hair algae has reduced.

There is still however quiet a bit of brown algae in the tank which pearls nicely towards the end of the photoperiod !


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## Matt Holbrook-Bull (26 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Just thought I'd post an update,
> 
> I've turned up the co2, got a Rhinox 5000 and am dosing 15ml TPN+ daily with a 50% water change each week.  The plants now seem to be growing a lot better than before, the algae does not seem to be spreading anymore and hair algae has reduced.
> 
> There is still however quiet a bit of brown algae in the tank which pearls nicely towards the end of the photoperiod !



Otto's, shrimp and snails love the brown if you dont want to black out to get rid


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## swackett (26 Jun 2008)

HI Matt,

Yeah got a few otto's although they don't come out of the corner now, not sure if they are being bullied by the SAE's we put.


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## ceg4048 (26 Jun 2008)

Hi,
  If it's the brown fluffy brown alage then it should go away after a few weeks by itself. Do multiple water changes to help as well as manual removal.

Cheers,


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## REDSTEVEO (26 Jun 2008)

swackett said:
			
		

> Thanks for the quick response and advice guys,
> 
> We were initially told by our LFS that Rowaphos will remove phosphate which is the cause of algae, having read some of the articles on this very informative site I can now see this is inaccurate and will remove the Rowaphos straight away.  I will also start to dose nutrients more regularly that 1 once a week to try and get a stable environment.
> 
> ...



ROWAPHOS   Not that old chestnut!! Ditch it and do as Clive says. Don't worry he is not half as scary as his picture.  


Steve.


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## swackett (27 Jun 2008)

hehe thanks,

Clive, I'm getting my new filter tomorrow, I'm putting the spray bars along the back wall pointing forward, and am just wondering if could let me know the best place to put the co2 diffusor?  I was thinking at the back so that bubbles go up into the jets but not sure.

Cheers


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## ceg4048 (27 Jun 2008)

Yeah, that sounds like as good a place as any. I have external diffusers so the effluent is already CO2 enriched as it exits the spraybars. If you are using an internal diffusers you'll have to play with locations until you get the best mixture. Just try different mountings and see how quickly your dropchecker changes at each location. 

Cheers,


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## swackett (30 Jun 2008)

Got the Eheim 2078 on Saturday along with an extra 2 spray bars.  Very impressed by the quality of the product, only slightly let down by the cheap green plastic fittings.  Got the filter up and running with three spray bars along the back wall (no way there are going to be dead spots now!) and I must say it is very quiet, even when running at almost the full fow rate. 

The water is now clearer than when I had the fluval running and all the plants are moving as if in a breeze   

Hopefully along with a switch to dry ferts soon this will spell the beginning of the end for the algae   

I'll post some pics soon

Steve


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## swackett (2 Jul 2008)

Think the higher temp is just down to the higher room temp now that it's warmer outside.

I've been dosing TPN+ now for a few weeks along with 50% water changes and am now starting to see a change in the plants and a lot more growth.  The new filter has definately helped (should have got one ages ago) the detritus is now collecting around the filter intake rather than along the tenelus which it did before with Fluval filter.  All the plants are now moving in the "breeze"   

Here are a couple of pics  (not quiet in focus)






Clive, note I've taken up your idea with the 3 spray bars along the back    - Excellent flow which gets to all parts of the tank





The Eusteralis Stellata is now growing madly in the middle   

Cheers

Steve


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## ceg4048 (3 Jul 2008)

Hi,
    Good stuff.   You're on the way. Try to keep everything pruned so you avoid flow blockages.

Cheers,


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