# Cyanobacteria Identification - At Last!



## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

Like many other aquarists, I have had cyanobacteria (aka 'BGA') grow in my tanks. And I started reading about this stuff. Of course, I initially thought BGA was algae. Why else would it be known as BGA (Blue-Green Algae)? But I later discovered that it's not an algae at all. It's a bacteria masquerading as algae! So, I set about trying to eradicate it from my tanks. Better still, prevent it from growing in the first place. But, then, I discovered that there was more than one Genus of cyanobacteria.

I had read in some old material from that great resource - _The Krib_ - that Oscillatoria had been found in some users' tanks. So, yesterday, I removed a sample of this stuff and under my microscope it went. At 125X magnification, I was able to confirm that my sample of cyanobacteria was indeed Oscillatoria. I identified it by its distinguishing characteristic - the tips of the long, dark blue-green filaments oscillate from side to side, hence its name. It also breaks up into fragments. Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury of a camera or camera mount on my second-hand school microscope.

Mission accomplished.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

I should really have said - first stage of mission accomplished. Now, I need to work on a reliable solution to this persistent nuisance.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

It turns out that this stuff is potentially much more than a nuisance. Like some other cyanobacteria, _Oscillatoria_ produces cyanotoxins. Please see:

http://oceandatacenter.ucsc.edu/PhytoGallery/Freshwater/Oscillatoria.html

Apparently, "Oscillatoria can produce both anatoxin-a and microcystins", according to the above reference. So, I then checked out each of these two cyanotoxins and here are links to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoxin-a

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcystin

At this point, I need help in trying to determine if there are any serious implications of what initially appeared as a nuisance, albeit a major nuisance at times.

Just recently, I lost some German Blue Rams and Panda Garras - all very suddenly. I did have some cyanobacteria in that tank. Both species of fish exhibited a darkened colouring and what appeared like paralysis as they sat almost motionless on the aquarium substrate. All my other fish - Cardinal Tetras, Otocinclus, Pygmy Corydoras, Siamese Algae Eater, Corydoras habrosus were fine.

All suggestions and thoughts welcome.

JPC


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## kilnakorr

You could be on to something. A quick find showns  cyano bacteria can lead to fish death:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1687428513000046

Rams are usually located at the bottom of the tank, so maybe more exposed to the toxins?


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## jaypeecee

kilnakorr said:


> You could be on to something. A quick find showns  cyano bacteria can lead to fish death:
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1687428513000046
> 
> Rams are usually located at the bottom of the tank, so maybe more exposed to the toxins?



Hi @kilnakorr 

Many thanks for the link, which I have scanned. It looks very relevant. I will read it and re-read it. This is such a specialized area and it lies outside my area of expertise. But, I have made the observation and I'm in little doubt that what I and A N Other have seen was Oscillatoria.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

I'm digging deeper into this conundrum. I've started some experiments to see if I can control/eliminate this Oscillatoria menace. Ambitious, I know but I'm fed up with this unsightly stuff. And, if it's potentially toxic to my tank inhabitants, it's not a welcome visitor. I don't want to resort to adding chemicals if I can avoid it. Particularly commercial preparations using undisclosed (proprietary) chemicals. I was OK previously about trying Easy-Life _Blue Exit_ as the active ingredient is named as salicylic acid. I am exploring the link between cyanobacteria and heavy metals. I also have a hunch that lighting _spectrum_ may exacerbate the growth of the blue-green peril.

NOTE: I have no fish, shrimps or snails in my experimental tank.

JPC


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## kilnakorr

jaypeecee said:


> I don't want to resort to adding chemicals if I can avoid it


A solution without chemicals is always preferable in our tanks. Do you count antibiotics as chemicals?

Some interesting reading on a problem with this stuff in ponds. Solution seemed to be ultra sound.
http://www.efficientsonics.com/wp-c...illatoria_using_a_PondTec_ultrasound_unit.pdf

Unfortunately not many details, and getting a home-kit ultra sound device might be hard to find


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

Cyanobacteria are often associated with low nitrates, but I don’t know if that is specific to one or more particular types of Cyanobacteria.


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## jaypeecee

kilnakorr said:


> A solution without chemicals is always preferable in our tanks. Do you count antibiotics as chemicals?
> 
> Some interesting reading on a problem with this stuff in ponds. Solution seemed to be ultra sound.
> http://www.efficientsonics.com/wp-c...illatoria_using_a_PondTec_ultrasound_unit.pdf
> 
> Unfortunately not many details, and getting a home-kit ultra sound device might be hard to find



Hi @kilnakorr 

My head is swimming with cyanobacteria information - well, not literally!

I don't think of antibiotics as chemicals _per se_. But, I think the consensus is that they are to be avoided as they encourage new antibiotic-resistant bacteria strains. But, I stress that I'm just dabbling here. My background is not in the life sciences but the physical sciences. So, I just read and read and read - just like someone would read novels, for example. When I get really stuck (quite often), I turn to @dw1305 for help.

I was aware of the use of ultrasound and I have a copy of the article above but I'd forgotten that it dealt with Oscillatoria - so thanks a bunch for the reminder!

JPC


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## Witcher

Hey @jaypeecee assuming oxygen and nitrates are chemicals, I think we can kill  cyanobacteria with chemicals it (or rather put them to sleep for some time).


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

I’m betting that one notorious chemical will be involved, no matter what solution you choose: _dihydrogen monoxide_.


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> When I get really stuck (quite often), I turn to @dw1305 for help.


Not a lot of help here, I'm afraid.

Cyanobacteria definitely produce toxins and you get toxic "blooms" <"where _Oscillatoria_ spp. are present">. They are also a <"marker of eutrophic water"> in the natural environment, and a local garden centres pet section used to have disgustingly dirty tanks, with <"truly fluorescent BGA">.

After that we are back into the <"shades of grey"> world, where cause and effect are much more difficult to prove. Fingers crossed I've never suffered from a BGA outbreak, but I have sometimes found a smear on the <"older leaves of _Pistia">. _

If people have access to <"Harmful Freshwater Algal Blooms, with an emphasis on Cyanobacteria">? It looks a pretty decent reference.





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> I’m betting that one notorious chemical will be involved, no matter what solution you choose: _dihydrogen monoxide_.


That is definitely true, because if you have liquid water you will also have Cyanobacteria.





Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Cyanobacteria are often associated with low nitrates, but I don’t know if that is specific to one or more particular types of Cyanobacteria.


It is, _Oscillatoria_ isn't nitrogen fixing, it is "non-diazotropic".

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> I’m betting that one notorious chemical will be involved, no matter what solution you choose: _dihydrogen monoxide_.



Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen 

Yes, that stuff gets everywhere - at least on this planet!

JPC


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## Witcher

jaypeecee said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> And, if it's potentially toxic to my tank inhabitants, it's not a welcome visitor.




Cyanobacteria is researched by armies of many countries due to its toxicity.


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## jaypeecee

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Cyanobacteria are often associated with low nitrates, but I don’t know if that is specific to one or more particular types of Cyanobacteria.



Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen

Yes, I think low nitrate is sometimes/often stated as being one of the _causes_ of cyanobacteria outbreaks. As Oscillatoria would appear to be prevalent in freshwater aquaria, they may be totally dependent on nitrate as they _seem_ unable to fix atmospheric nitrogen. I say 'seem' as the Genus, Oscillatoria includes no less than 100 known species! My bwain hurts as John Cleese would say! (spelling error intentional). So, I think the 'low nitrate' cause may be a bit misleading in the case of Oscillatoria. References to 'low nitrate' imply that higher nitrate is OK but I can't see the logic in that. More nitrate, more BGA?

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi Everyone,

I may have gone quiet in my pursuit of a method for (hopefully) eliminating cyanobacteria in general and, specifically, _Oscillatoria_. But I am still beavering away with this. I am trying a two-pronged approach based on the lifecycle of _Oscillatoria_. I hope to have some results within the next couple of weeks. I am prepared for abject failure but, as they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

I thought it was time for an update. So, here goes...

Virtually all the BGA/cyanobacteria has now gone from my experimental tank. I removed a tiny sample this morning and examined it under a microscope as before. There were no signs of oscillation of the filaments that I had seen previously. I spent probably 15 minutes carefully watching this stuff and this tangled mass was stationary. I haven't added any fertilizers to this tank since this experiment started on 13 April. I had wanted the BGA to use up any fertilizers that were in the water from the outset. The tank is in a brightly-lit room with no additional light over the tank. 

My approach so far has been to use Easy-Life _Blue Exit_ in conjunction with an in-tank UV-C sterilizer. My thinking behind this is to kill off the visible BGA filaments (sitting on the substrate) with the _Blue Exit_ and also to ensure that any free water-borne fragments are drawn into the sterilizer where they are irradiated and killed with a dose of UV-C 'light'. I have used _Blue Exit_ before in my community tank where it certainly reduced the amount of BGA in the tank. Its active ingredient is salicylic acid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

Many research papers later, I have learned that there appear to be two minerals/elements in particular that are thought to be essential to the survival of cyanobacteria. So, I need to pursue this further.

That's all for now.

JPC


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## X3NiTH

Micronutrient effects on cyanobacterial growth and physiology






This would suggest that using an Iron chelator in a pH environment that makes it always bioavailable where Nitrates are also present increases cyano growth. Change the chelate to a more temporary version and use it in an environment that makes it less bioavailable may restrict cyano growth. Increasing background concentrations of Manganese and Copper in an Iron limiting environment may reduce or hopefully eliminate cyano altogether.

Pretty much all Tap water is remediated to remove Manganese if it’s present in the supply because concentrations as little as 0.05ppm makes water taste foul.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @X3NiTH 

Many thanks for your feedback.

I was looking at that very scientific paper today. The thing about Oscillatoria, which is what I have identified in my tank, is that it is not a nitrogen-fixing cyanobacteria. BTW, the maximum Mn level in my tap water _in 2018_ was 10.20 micrograms/l.

JPC


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## X3NiTH

So quite palatable water!

Just so we’re on the same page 10.20micrograms/L = 0.0102milligrams/L (ppm).

I was thinking that tap water that is remediated and has a persistent low level of Mn and Fe in it being used for water changes to help reduce ammonia/nitrate loading in water that has a lot of waste producers may exacerbate the growth of cyano if it’s present in the system. 

Of all the compounds that Cyanobacteria can produce they share one specific characteristic, they all use nitrogen as the foundation from which to build them. Oscillatoria uses N in the production of Anatoxin otherwise known as Very Fast Death Factor (every bit as bad as it sounds as it’s a neurotoxin, dig way down deeper into that rabbit hole and you’ll find a causal link with sporadicCJD).

So it would be good to find a way not just to eliminate this from tanks but to keep it out by creating the environment to prevent it by feeding the tank the elements cyano doesn’t like and limiting the ones it does (or adjust the element to element ratios). Easy Peasy then


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## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> Oscillatoria uses N in the production of Anatoxin otherwise known as Very Fast Death Factor...



Hi @X3NiTH 

Many thanks for your input. I referred to the serious toxicity issue in post #3 above. When I discovered the term 'Very Fast Death Factor', I was gobsmacked! This seemed to be _very_ relevant to what I'd witnessed with my GBRs and Panda Garras. There they all were one day - the epitome of health and about three days later, they were all dead. What could have happened? I could no longer afford to pay lip service to this thing called BGA.

I would welcome your further inputs in trying to remedy this problem. My background is in the field of electronics, not microbiology. I need all the help I can get. Please keep the suggestions coming.

JPC


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## Nick72

I used SL Aqua Z2 to eradicate Blue / Green algae (Cyanobacteria).

Using the recommended dose and leaving in the tank for one week, before a water change, and my BGA was 100% gone.

Unfortunately I can't recommend SL Aqua Z2 as four days after said water change all my plants were dead.

I believe the plants died due to a tap water contamination, but I can't discount that the SL Aqua Z2 also played a role.


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## jaypeecee

Nick72 said:


> I used SL Aqua Z2 to eradicate Blue / Green algae (Cyanobacteria).
> 
> Using the recommended dose and leaving in the tank for one week, before a water change, and my BGA was 100% gone.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't recommend SL Aqua Z2 as four days after said water change all my plants were dead.
> 
> I believe the plants died due to a tap water contamination, but I can't discount that the SL Aqua Z2 also played a role.



Hi @Nick72 

It's too much of a coincidence that, following use of SL Aqua Z2, all your plants were dead. It's ironic, isn't it, that this product is marketed as a 'Plant Protector'! I don't go for these magic potions with no information about the active ingredient(s). It gives the customer no useful information on which to decide if a product has any chance of being effective. Waste of money.

JPC


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## Nick72

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Nick72
> 
> It's too much of a coincidence that, following use of SL Aqua Z2, all your plants were dead. It's ironic, isn't it, that this product is marketed as a 'Plant Protector'! I don't go for these magic potions with no information about the active ingredient(s). It gives the customer no useful information on which to decide if a product has any chance of being effective. Waste of money.
> 
> JPC



Yes, you are probably correct.

It would have been more clear cut without the next water change dropping my PH to 5.6.  That in itself was very strange and I can't rule out this for the death of my plants.

Unfortunately I haven't found anyone else who has used SL Aqua Z2, to either say it worked fine or did harm to their aquarium.


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## X3NiTH

Made from natural extracts and can also treat hydra and planaria, so possibly contains Betel or Neem.

I’ve been reading up a little and it would appear that overdosing manganese sends cyano on its way out. Once up taken it has to expend energy transporting it and storing it, the more there is the more it has to transport and store. The Mn levels for lethality we’re around 10-40ppm (not yet looked at the consequences for this overdose on plants and livestock).

Trying to limit growth by reducing Fe availability causes cyano to switch to siderophore production to sequester non biologically active Fe by releasing proteins that can chelate the Iron and make it bioavailable again, there doesn’t appear to be consensus whether Anatoxin and Microcystin have chelating abilities. So an increase in bioavailable Fe may reduce the possibility of excretion of proteins.


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## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> I’ve been reading up a little and it would appear that overdosing manganese sends cyano on its way out. Once up taken it has to expend energy transporting it and storing it, the more there is the more it has to transport and store. The Mn levels for lethality we’re around 10-40ppm (not yet looked at the consequences for this overdose on plants and livestock).



Hi @X3NiTH 

Many thanks for the input.

However, I can't see how we can point a finger at manganese. If the range of toxicity to cyanobacteria is from 10-40 ppm of manganese, then there would be little chance of cyano survival if, for example, using TNC _Complete_ or Seachem _Flourish_. These contain 180 ppm and 118 ppm Mn, respectively.

And, what I've learned is that the different species of cyano are very different in a whole range of ways. For example, some are nitrogen-fixing and some aren't. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to pin down the ID of the stuff in my tank. To the best of my ability, I believe it to be Oscillatoria.

JPC


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## Ray

Interesting research - good work. Fact that there are so many kinds of BGA maybe explains why solutions one person swears by doesn’t work for another. I had problems with it years ago in my sand and after trying super dosing and boosting flow for a few weeks to try and eradicate it I got frustrated (was tearing my hair out!) and picked up an appropriate antibiotic while on a trip to the US. That did the trick.

Did you try Phyton-Git, which is also supposed to do the trick?


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## X3NiTH

Hi @jaypeecee you are confusing the numbers, you have stated the bottle total amounts for both these products, not the resultant total in the receiving water volume when using the dosing instructions. My DIY every other day dose for Mn is 0.05ppm resultant in the total tank water volume which is richer in Mn than both TNC and FComp. To overdose FComp to 11.8ppm Mn in the tank water would require 1L of FComp for every 10L of water which is many magnitudes higher than the dosing instructions on the bottle.

10-40ppm of Mn is a significant amount of Mn , if it were Calcium that would represent a dGH of 1.4 - 5.6.

In the papers I read the salt used for overdosing was Manganese Chloride probably because it was less likely to form precipitates with other elements present than say using the Sulphate of Manganese (I use this in my trace mix but in quantities where the sulphates aren’t problematical for precipitation).

Whether the Cyano fixes N or not makes no difference it will uptake it as already fixed nutrients through Nitrate and Ammonia and if bioavailable Iron is low then will utilise it to scavenge for Iron through siderophore production. In favourable Fe conditions with no siderophore production Cyano will use 250 atoms of N for every 1 atom of Fe uptaken, in unfavourable conditions and using siderophores, for every 1 atom of Fe (not bioavailable) it requires 14,000 ATP molecules (ATP has 5 atoms of N for every molecule so 70,000 atoms of N needed).  When using siderophores nutrient transport is across thin films so still stagnant water needed to allow this to happen, increasing flow carries away the proteins from the surface of the cyano so it reduces the chance to uptake what it catches (unless it comes back around again for instance in a closed environment like an aquarium). So it’s not surprising to see out in the wild that Cyano Blooms typically goes toxic in environments where there is agricultural pollution and little rainfall to keep the supply of free Iron entering a system, once the water goes still and the Iron becomes unbioavailable it starts production of siderophore proteins to get to the Iron.


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## zozo

There once was a scientific paper online from the German Humbold University from Dr Steinberg with a study on Humic substances (Tannins) in freshwater. He once stated in an interview, you can not have enough of it in your aquarium, for several beneficial health reasons... 

The study revealed also that it has a rather diminishing effect on the development of Cyanobacteria.

Unfortunately, the study paper is no longer online atm. At least i can not find it anymore with the links i bookmarked.

Anyway, instead of filtering over Active Carbon to get clearer water, people should stop doing that and drop-in leaf litter and or Alder cones in their tanks and enjoy tannin-stained water...   Especially if you suffer from Cyanobacteria...


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## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> Hi @jaypeecee you are confusing the numbers, you have stated the bottle total amounts for both these products, not the resultant total in the receiving water volume when using the dosing instructions.



Hi @X3NiTH 

Just as well you're on hand to correct my error!

Thanks very much.

JPC


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## X3NiTH

zozo said:


> The study revealed also that it has a rather diminishing effect on the development of Cyanobacteria.



Humic and Fulvic acids are very good at chelating free metals, they are also quite large molecules especially Humic acid which Cyano may not be able to uptake or dismantle on a thin film to get at the Iron whereas the higher plants with their well defined structures are well adapted to uptake molecules that large.

Maybe!


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## jaypeecee

zozo said:


> There once was a scientific paper online from the German Humbold University from Dr Steinberg with a study on Humic substances (Tannins) in freshwater. He once stated in an interview, you can not have enough of it in your aquarium, for several beneficial health reasons...
> 
> The study revealed also that it has a rather diminishing effect on the development of Cyanobacteria.



Hi @zozo 

Yes, I would appear to have a copy of that paper. It was published in _Freshwater Biology_ (2006) 51, 1189 - 1210. It makes the statement that:

"In some macrophytes and algae we show that HS interfere with photosynthesis and growth. For instance, the presence of HS suppresses cyanobacteria more than eukaryotic algae".

I seem to recall that @dw1305 does not have problems with Cyanobacteria and he may make good use of HS in the form of oak leaves, etc.

JPC


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## dw1305

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> I seem to recall that @dw1305 does not have problems with Cyanobacteria and he may make good use of HS in the form of oak leaves, etc.


l have some humid substances in all the tanks. I started doing it because I’d seen pictures of the black water in S. America, which were choked with leaves and dead wood. I’d already stopped using gravel,  so one of the “issues” with dead leaves had already gone, but I still used to worry all the time about water quality.

When I started talking to proper fish keepers, I found out that some of them had gone a lot further that route, and that led me to Diana Walstad etc.

Cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel

I think this is the paper;
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2006.01571.x


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## jaypeecee

sparkyweasel said:


> I think this is the paper;
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2006.01571.x



Well found, @sparkyweasel. 

It had to be somewhere.

JPC


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## zozo

sparkyweasel said:


> I think this is the paper;
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2427.2006.01571.x



Nice find!..  

Amazing how things wander around over the internet... Now i recall, the first time i did read about it is was an article about a study called <Stress Ecology> Also from C. Steinberg. Bookmarked it and then after suddenly it is deleted or no longer accessible, moved, likely updated and published again at another site... 






						Stress Ecology
					

A relatively new study field in aquatics where stress is not investigated as a negative but on the contrary as a positive.. It has a wider application than only water chemistry but in a way always inherently connected.. So i decided to put it in here...



					www.ukaps.org


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## becks

In my reef tanks, I always seemed to get a Cyano outbreak when my tank was phosphate limited.  Popular belief used to be low nitrates and phosphates are a must for a healthy reef tank...when I increased them, my Cyano would go.

Chemiclean worked wonders for me.  It was coral and invert safe so I assume it would be fine in a planted tank with inverts


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## Hanuman

becks said:


> In my reef tanks, I always seemed to get a Cyano outbreak when my tank was phosphate limited.  Popular belief used to be low nitrates and phosphates are a must for a healthy reef tank...when I increased them, my Cyano would go.
> 
> Chemiclean worked wonders for me.  It was coral and invert safe so I assume it would be fine in a planted tank with inverts



Bought some. Will try it out this weekend. Supposedly it's the safest method otherwise one has to use antibiotics which obviously is not the best route.


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## jaypeecee

becks said:


> Chemiclean worked wonders for me. It was coral and invert safe so I assume it would be fine in a planted tank with inverts



Hi @becks 

I cannot understand why the manufacturers, Boyd Enterprises, say this about Chemiclean:

Chemiclean
Cleans stains from red, black, blue-green, and methane (bubble) producing cyanobacteria

I don't get the "stains" bit. They make no claim that it eradicates Cyanobacteria. And the Cyanobacteria that I've identified in my freshwater tank would not be found in a marine environment - to the best of my knowledge.

I wouldn't feel comfortable using Chemiclean when the manufacturers don't disclose the active ingredient. Would you mind telling me what Chemiclean looks like? Does it look anything like the picture shown here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

Thanks.

JPC


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## becks

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @becks
> 
> I cannot understand why the manufacturers, Boyd Enterprises, say this about Chemiclean:
> 
> Chemiclean
> Cleans stains from red, black, blue-green, and methane (bubble) producing cyanobacteria
> 
> I don't get the "stains" bit. They make no claim that it eradicates Cyanobacteria. And the Cyanobacteria that I've identified in my freshwater tank would not be found in a marine environment - to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> I wouldn't feel comfortable using Chemiclean when the manufacturers don't disclose the active ingredient. Would you mind telling me what Chemiclean looks like? Does it look anything like the picture shown here:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> JPC



It’s believed to be erythromycin


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## jaypeecee

becks said:


> It’s believed to be erythromycin



Hi @becks 

In that case, my understanding is that it wouldn't be considered legal in the UK as it's an antibiotic.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel

jaypeecee said:


> In that case, my understanding is that it wouldn't be considered legal in the UK as it's an antibiotic.


I believe you are correct. 
A cynical person might think that could be a reason for not revealing what's in it. That person might also suspect a reason for selling it as a stain remover could be that the regulations are less stringent than for selling it as a pesticide, in terms of testing, licencing and proving that it is effective and safe.
Or it could just be that they are keeping a 'trade secret'. ???


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## X3NiTH

Here’s another treatment hiding behind ‘Trade Secrets’ not only the website but also in the MSDS.

UltraLife Blue Green Slime Stain Remover






That’s a Pink Salt!

I have some similar ‘Pink Salt’ in the toolkit, it’s called Manganese Sulphate, granted it’s not as Pink as the one pictured above which you’ll find if you search looks more like Manganese Chloride, I’m still undecided if it’s an Anhydrous or Tetrahydrate form because visually the Anhydrous one is supposed to be Pink and the Tetrahydrate Rose (red rose or pink rose?).

No idea on the concentration of Manganese so it could be bulked out with other secret ingredients (filler). It’s possibly may not be pure Chloride Salt as that would be a Pink cubic like crystal although it could be milled to a finer powder for faster solubility due to increased surface area to volume.

If this sounds like random guesswork take note that the Warning on this product is that it may/will ‘Increase Biological Activity’ resulting in an increase in oxygen demand causing available oxygen to fall, it may also adjust the pH. That’s just plain hilarious as this is exactly what happens when you add Manganese into an Alkaline environment, it oxidises (removes O2 from the water column) and adjusts the pH (down). The instructions for dosing are confusing in that they say only dose once in a week but dose again after 48hrs if necessary, how you determine what’s necessary it doesn’t say in the above link, unless of course there’s some fine print instructions in the packaging. I figure the necessary bit is that if the starting pH of the aquarium is high say getting close to pH9 (Marine could be this high) then most of the manganese will oxidise and become unavailable, however it will have moderated the pH down a little so that on further addition later it is more available and effective.

Anecdotal evidence for its effectiveness can be found on a few forums where it appears to have worked where the Cyano halted growth, browned out and died off.

I find it funny that the oxidation state for Manganese is Brown in colour (blue brown but hey semantics) and why it’s remediated for in drinking water supplies (along with Iron), not just because it makes it taste funny but because it’s Brown nasty stuff that upsets Launderers by STAINING washed clothing!


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## jaypeecee

Hi @X3NiTH

Yes, I've seen BGSSR many times online but never used it. The colour appears to be mostly white with a few pink crystals in it. Perhaps it's the tetrahydrate form of manganese (II) sulphate?

JPC


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## X3NiTH

Yup from the moment of addition unchelated Manganese uses up free Oxygen in the water to form Manganese Oxide and it does this ever readily the higher pH/Alkalinity.


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## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> If this sounds like random guesswork take note that the Warning on this product is that it may/will ‘Increase Biological Activity’ resulting in an increase in oxygen demand causing available oxygen to fall, it may also adjust the pH. That’s just plain hilarious as this is exactly what happens when you add Manganese into an Alkaline environment, it oxidises (removes O2 from the water column) and adjusts the pH (down).



I don't quite understand the above. How can oxidation _remove_ O2 from the water column? It's just dawned on me - are you saying that the manganese _itself oxidises_ thus taking oxygen from the water column?

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @X3NiTH 

Sorry with my last two posts. I got into a mess trying to edit them too quickly. Hope my ramblings make some sense!

JPC


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## X3NiTH

Yeah perfect sense, hopefully my answer above does also (edit timing switcheroo).



X3NiTH said:


> Yup from the moment of addition unchelated Manganese uses up free Oxygen in the water to form Manganese Oxide and it does this ever readily the higher pH/Alkalinity.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @X3NiTH 

Which paper did I send you about manganese and cyano? Do you remember?

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @X3NiTH

I found it!

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @X3NiTH

I'm going to give my brain a short break.

Back a bit later.

I'm also acutely aware that, if anyone has been trying to follow the last few quick-fire posts, many apologies.

JPC


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## X3NiTH

It’s the one I posted the graphic from above.

I think Cyanobacteria sees Manganese like cake and can’t stop eating the stuff if it’s surrounded by it. Like Monty Pythons Monsieur at some point it must reach that final cake.


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## jaypeecee

X3NiTH said:


> I think Cyanobacteria sees Manganese like cake and can’t stop eating the stuff if it’s surrounded by it. Like Monty Pythons Monsieur at some point it must reach that final cake.



I have the paper now.

Just one after-dinner mint?

JPC


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## Witcher

X3NiTH said:


> So it would be good to find a way not just to eliminate this from tanks but to keep it out by creating the environment to prevent it by feeding the tank the elements cyano doesn’t like and limiting the ones it does (or adjust the element to element ratios). Easy Peasy then




No chance to eliminate spores of the Cyano from the tank, they are abundant on whole Earth, and because of them we can breath using oxygen.

I think the only way to keep them at bay is to create O, N and P (I'm not 100% sure about P) rich environment. And the proper flow is a must - as any colony it can be killed by some kind of movement of the water (constantly supplying oxygen and others) etc.


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## zozo

jaypeecee said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid



Is actually a substance made and used by certain plant species, the most common one is the willow tree. In ancient times it is/was extracted from the bark and put in ointments and drinks etc. It's the antiseptic bactericidal painkiller commonly know as Aspirin. Science can not really prove it yet but assumes that plants use this substance to prevent been nibbled at and rot from damage.

Anyway, somewhere around the turn of the 19th century, the pharmaceutical giant Dr Bayer discovered it could very cheaply be extracted industrially from coal. And the plants containing it were no longer used and slowly went into oblivion with the general public.

But there still are some mythological practices around using Willow Water for all kind of alleged beneficial health purposes in homoeopathy and even in horticulture to give young plant cuttings a better start and higher survival rate. Often with mixed results and reviews... (Mixed concentrations?)

Fresh cuttings from young Willow branches actually also is an old traditional and popular practice in the aquarium hobby against excessive algae growth. The main alleged contribution is, it grows on and uses a lot of nitrates. It might be that it also releases a tiny dose of Salicylic acid to the water column that has beneficial effects on the long run with suppressing bacterial issues.

Maybe a nice question for the Myth Busters...


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## sparkyweasel

And old-time fishkeepers used to use willow roots as spawning mops, which was believed to help prevent the eggs from getting fungus.


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## X3NiTH

Witcher said:


> No chance to eliminate spores of the Cyano from the tank, they are abundant on whole Earth, and because of them we can breath using oxygen.



Yup and because of this they had to develop complex sequestration mechanisms to adapt to bathing in their own waste products which also happened to oxidise their metal food sources making them unavailable.


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

It's time for another update. On 23 April, I installed a UV-C sterilizer in my experimental tank. At this point, the cyano (aka BGA) had really taken hold on the substrate (gravel) and on the RH glass panel of the tank. On 26 April, I added 2ml of _Blue Exit_ to the tank and the UV-C lamp was off. But flow was on. I then added 2ml of _Blue Exit_ on 27, 28, 29 and 30 April. On 1 May, the UV-C sterilizer lamp was switched on. By 5 May, the cyano was turning black. I then added further 2ml doses of _Blue Exit_ on 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 May. From time to time, throughout this period, I stirred up the gravel and cleaned the tank glass panels using only a 'scrubby'.

The rationale behind my approach was to use _Blue Exit_ as the first line of defence against the cyano. But, I know from experience that this alone has not been sufficient to completely eradicate the cyano/BGA. My thinking was to use a UV-C sterilizer to kill off any BGA suspended in the water column. Right now, it appears to have been successful. I've attached some photos to hopefully illustrate this. And, I do apologize for the (lack of) quality of some of them.











I will add a few more details later today.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

jaypeecee said:


> I will add a few more details later today.



OK, a couple of days late...

The first thing I'd like to mention is the (lack of) toxicity of _Blue Exit_ to fish. Please see the following report:

https://mnet.mendelu.cz/mendelnet2013/articles/43_postulkova_817.pdf

One of the conclusions of this independent investigation was "At acute toxicity tests on (Danio rerio) we found out, that using of BLUE EXIT is completely safe, because even with hundredfold concentration no fish died".

I also emailed Easy-Life, the manufacturer of _Blue Exit _as it contains salicylic acid, which has bactericidal properties. So, what would be the effect on beneficial bacteria in the aquarium? This is the question I put to Easy-Life:

"Since salicylic acid has anti-bacterial properties, what effect, if any, will this have on the beneficial bacteria (including nitrifying bacteria) in an aquarium? Is this something you’ve evaluated?" and this is the reply I received:

"The effect on beneficial bacterial is minimal. The normal use of the product, has barely any effect on them at all".

And, there are no other additives in this method that I'm proposing. The other active agent is UV-C light. I used a _Mini Green Killing Machine _from www.aa-aquarium.com/gkm. 

This method does not require the tank to be blacked out.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

Almost another week has passed since the last update and my tank is still totally clear of the blue-green curse!

I'd strongly suggest that anyone with BGA (cyanobacteria) in their tanks consider using the same approach as that which I have used. Of course, it does mean investing in a UV-C sterilizer. But, it doesn't have to 'cost the earth'. The _Mini Green Killing Machine_ that I used is one option and it's suitable for tanks up to 75 litres. They are available for around £30. But, it's not ideal as the entire bulb assembly and inline switch needs to be replaced when the bulb needs replacing. Not good. However, there is another product that looks promising. This one:

https://www.sera.de/en/product/freshwater-aquarium/sera-algovec-uv/

It looks much better all round. I will explore further.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi again!

Along with the UV-C sterilizer, it will still be necessary to use Easy-Life _Blue Exit_. May I also request that UKAPS members keep this within UKAPS' four walls? I don't want someone else nabbing the idea and claiming ownership of it. I don't seek to benefit from it other than to, perhaps, help others win the battle against the blue-green menace. But, at the moment, it's a one-off. It has worked for me and that's all.

JPC


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

I just thought I’d share the results of my experimentation with nutrient ratios in relation to cyanobacteria. I believe the ratio of NO₃ and PO₄ may be important.

To start with, I was dosing TNC Complete at the “double-triple” dose as recommended by Aquarium Gardens. Roughly speaking this results in about 40 ppm/week of NO₃ and about 3.7 ppm/week of PO₄. In other words, this is very rich in both NO₃ and PO₄ and not far off a 10:1 ratio. With this dosage I was, not surprisingly, getting good plant growth - and I was getting no Cyanobacteria at all.

About eight weeks ago, I decided to stop using TNC Complete and go with DIY salts instead, because I’d read up about red plants being redder when NO₃ is restricted, and I wanted to make my _Rotala wallichii_ go a bit pinker. So I started using KNO₃, KH₂PO₄ and K₂SO₄ to give me 15 ppm/week of NO₃ and 3 ppm/week of PO₄ - so quite a big reduction in NO₃ and a small reduction in PO₄.

Under this regime I was still getting good plant growth, but I started noticing small pockets of Cyanobacteria, particularly near the tips of stem plants in the brightest parts of the tank.. When I say “small pockets” I mean a few square millimetres that never really got any momentum going. I also got green dust algae growing on the front glass very rapidly indeed, which I hadn’t had before.

You often hear that Cyanobacteria is caused by ”low nitrates”, but I wondered if it’s actually the ratio between nitrate and phosphate that is the controlling factor. So about three weeks ago I decided to alter my dosing. I left the NO₃ the same at 15 ppm/week, but I lowered the PO₄ to 2.0 ppm/week. Plant growth is still okay, but the small pockets of Cyanobacteria have packed their bags completely. Also, the green dust is now much slower.

So it appears that the reduction of PO₄ has booted out the Cyanobacteria. But it can’t be the _level_ of PO₄ that was the problem, because originally under the “double-triple” dose of TNC Complete I had a much higher level of PO₄ but no Cyanobacteria. So I think it must be the ratio of NO₃ and PO₄ that created conditions that made it just about possible for Cyanobacteria to get a tiny foothold.

If I’m right, then a NO₃-PO₄ ratio of 10:1 gave no Cyanobacteria, but when that ratio was 5:1 it could just start to survive. I’m now at a ratio of 7.5:1 and I’m still cyano-free.

It also looks like green dust algae might also be exacerbated by a low NO₃-PO₄ ratio.

Note that I’m not suggesting that plants care about the ratio. I think from their point of view all they want is “enough” NO₃ and PO₄ - but some types of ”algae” including Cyanobacteria do seem to care.

I’m going to be sticking with 15 ppm/week of NO₃ and 2.0 ppm/week of PO₄ for the time being. My _Rotala wallichii_ has gone a nice pink colour and everything is growing nicely. I don’t feel like taking the risk of lowering NO₃ further, although it might be an interesting experiment to see if the Cyanobacteria were to come back. If I do decide to try it, I’ll report back.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen / David

That's fascinating and I'm really pleased that you have shared this with everyone - myself included. You may have made a significant discovery. That's my initial response. Now, I'll go back through your post to assimilate the detail.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen

1 As well as dosing measured amounts of nitrate and phosphate, did you test for each of these nutrients in the water column? I seem to recall that you use JBL Test Kits - if so, are these what you used in this instance?

2 For completeness, what form of nitrate (e.g. KNO₃) and phosphate did you use?

JPC


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## sparkyweasel

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> I don’t feel like taking the risk of lowering NO₃ further, although it might be an interesting experiment


Perhaps you could try the experiment in jars with some stem plant trimmings, rather than risk upsetting your tank.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

jaypeecee said:


> 1 As well as dosing measured amounts of nitrate and phosphate, did you test for each of these nutrients in the water column? I seem to recall that you use JBL Test Kits - if so, are these what you used in this instance?


I use API 5-in-1 strips for most purposes (although I use the JBL titration tests for KH and GH when I want more accurate results). The API strips only give a crude measurement of NO₃ and don’t give PO₄. So my “results” are based purely on the ppm/week that I’m adding to the tank. However, I know from TDS measurements that the water column is in a stable equilibrium:  around 200ppm just before water change, and about 160ppm just after, and these numbers stay the same from week to week.



jaypeecee said:


> 2 For completeness, what form of nitrate (e.g. KNO₃) and phosphate did you use?


That’s right - I use KNO₃ for nitrate, KH₂PO₄ for phosphate, and I top up the potassium to 30 ppm/week using K₂SO₄.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen

sparkyweasel said:


> Perhaps you could try the experiment in jars with some stem plant trimmings, rather than risk upsetting your tank.


I could do, but actually I think curiosity will get the better of me and my next move will be to lower the nitrate to 10 ppm/week while leaving the phosphate at 2 ppm/week. This would give a NO₃/PO₄ ratio of 5:1, which is the same ratio that gave me small pockets of Cyanobacteria (at 15 ppm/week and 3 ppm/week). I’d very much like to see whether the Cyanobacteria will return, and it was only a tiny amount so probably worth the gamble!


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## rebel

I've used a similar product to Blue exit without UV-c and had complete clearance of cyano. UVc is optional while the other product is not. It is my only recommendation these days for people who are otherwise busy.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @rebel


rebel said:


> I've used a similar product to Blue exit...


I'm not aware of any other anti-cyanobacteria/anti-BGA products based on salicylic acid, which is what _Blue Exit_ uses. Which similar product did you use? Are you referring to _Ultralife Blue-Green Slime Stain Remover_, for example?

JPC


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## Witcher

jaypeecee said:


> any other anti-cyanobacteria/anti-BGA products based on salicylic acid


Willow bark?


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## Ray

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @rebel
> 
> I'm not aware of any other anti-cyanobacteria/anti-BGA products based on salicylic acid, which is what _Blue Exit_ uses. Which similar product did you use? Are you referring to _Ultralife Blue-Green Slime Stain Remover_, for example?
> 
> JPC



Possibly Phyton Git?

 https://www.aquasabi.com/ADA-Phyton-Git-Plus


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## jaypeecee

Ray said:


> Possibly Phyton Git?
> 
> https://www.aquasabi.com/ADA-Phyton-Git-Plus



Hi @Ray 

ADA do not appear to disclose the active ingredient(s) in Phyton-Git-Plus. But, a 500ml bottle of this treatment will set you back a very substantial 199 Euros! A 500ml bottle of _Blue Exit_ is currently priced at £11.54 from Amazon UK.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Witcher 


Witcher said:


> Willow bark?



Indeed, willow bark is a source of salicylic acid. I have referred to the following before but, for convenience, here it is again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

JPC


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## Ray

jaypeecee said:


> Hi @Ray
> 
> ADA do not appear to disclose the active ingredient(s) in Phyton-Git-Plus. But, a 500ml bottle of this treatment will set you back a very substantial 199 Euros! A 500ml bottle of _Blue Exit_ is currently priced at £11.54 from Amazon UK.
> 
> JPC



They do not disclose.
The dose is 1 drop daily per 20 l of aquarium water to prevent diseases. In case of blue-green algae infestation, apply 1ml directly to the affected areas - so a 50ml bottle will go a long way!
Some people  https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/a-new-start-continued-progress.59973/post-593060 think it contains vinegar.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Ray


Ray said:


> In case of blue-green algae infestation, apply 1ml directly to the affected areas - so a 50ml bottle will go a long way!



Ah, it's a direct application treatment. As cyano/BGA often occurs on the substrate in sheets, then the ADA product is not a practical option. It might be better suited to BBA for which, I think, some people dab on liquid carbon products.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel

jaypeecee said:


> a 500ml bottle of this treatment will set you back a very substantial 199 Euros!


I think I'm in the wrong business.


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen


Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> If I’m right, then a NO₃-PO₄ ratio of 10:1 gave no Cyanobacteria, but when that ratio was 5:1 it could just start to survive. I’m now at a ratio of 7.5:1 and I’m still cyano-free.
> 
> It also looks like green dust algae might also be exacerbated by a low NO₃-PO₄ ratio.



Eureka!!

Without perhaps realizing it, you have seemingly discovered the importance of the _Redfield ratio_. I've known about this for quite some time but had read somewhere that it was not considered relevant to our tanks. Here's a great place to start and note that it not only talks about BGA (cyano) but also 'green algae':

https://buddendo.home.xs4all.nl/aquarium/redfield_eng.htm

You will see that your NO₃-PO₄ ratio of 10:1 (Redfield ratio = 10) falls in the yellow band, i.e. little chance of algae.

Now, I hope the moderators don't rap my knuckles for this but here is another link to a forum in which this topic is discussed:

http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?t=24749

For all I know, the OP (Dutchman) may be Charles Buddendorf, the man behind the web site in the first link above.

This has got to be worthy of more investigation and experimenting, hasn't it? We may not need to turn to cyano (BGA) treatments after all. Wouldn't that be great? And we may be able to keep other forms of algae under control. A dream come true?

JPC


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## jaypeecee

Hi @Dr Mike Oxgreen 


jaypeecee said:


> You will see that your NO₃-PO₄ ratio of 10:1 (Redfield ratio = 10) falls in the yellow band, i.e. little chance of algae.



Apologies! The Redfield ratio is actually the N-P ratio, not the NO₃-PO₄ ratio as I incorrectly stated above. The table in the Buddendorf article threw me. If you look at the NO₃=10mg/l column and its intersection with the PO₄ = 1.5mg/l row, the number presented is 10. But, the actual ratio of 10 to 1.5 = 6.7.

I will add a note to this effect on t'other thread.

JPC


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## dw1305

Hi all,
I'd be surprised if the Redfield Ratio was that relevant, but I don't know that much about marine phytoplankton.  





jaypeecee said:


> For all I know, the OP (Dutchman) may be Charles Buddendorf, the man behind the web site in the first link above.


These were @plantbrain 's comments, from <"Turning my plants red?">





plantbrain said:


> The RR is perhaps the single most abused concept in aquatic biology. Charles on a Dutch site also abused this and made some poor assumptions and got caught.........but then did not correct the error when notified several times. He also made a mess and did not realize the difference between atomic rations and mass ratios. RR is an atomic ratio, not based on mass.


These were his <"original comments on the Redfield Ratio">.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee

Hi Folks,

Just a snippet of information I'd like to share. I emailed _Ultralife_, manufacturer/supplier of _Blue Green Slime Stain Remover_ (BGSSR). I asked "Does BGSSR contain any antibiotics?". That was 12 days ago but I've had no reply. Disappointing.

JPC


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## Animallover

thanks!


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## Wolf6

Blue exit has been around for some time now, I remember using it back in my younger years, some 24? years ago. With success too, totally eradicated it. These days whenever I see a little bit of bga show up I dose it with easycarbo (filter switched off). Its usually gone the next day.


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## jaypeecee

Wolf6 said:


> Blue exit has been around for some time now, I remember using it back in my younger years, some 24? years ago. With success too, totally eradicated it.


Hi @Wolf6 

I see that you are in the Netherlands and the makers of _Blue Exit_ - _Easy Life_ - are also in the Netherlands. Perhaps that's why _Blue Exit_ has been around for some time for Dutch aquarists?

Just a thought.

JPC


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## jaypeecee

dw1305 said:


> I'd be surprised if the Redfield Ratio was that relevant, but I don't know that much about marine phytoplankton.


Hi @dw1305 & Everyone,

It now seems that the Redfield Ratio is, indeed, irrelevant - based on recent research. I hope to explain why when I resume my attempt to pull everything together in Homing In On Cyanobacteria (aka 'BGA'). So many interesting active threads at the moment here on UKAPS - there aren't enough hours in a day!

JPC


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