# Anyone ever feel like scrapping their tank and starting fresh? (Rant)



## Epiphyte (31 Jan 2021)

Perhaps I'm just getting pissed off because my tank has thrown another curve ball at me. It honestly makes me want to strip the whole thing down and start again.

First off a while ago I was reading into too much nitrates with a double triple dose, so I reduce my dose down to normal triple dose method spread over a week.

After I did this, algae, so much of it. Green spot, green dust, blue green, diatoms, the works. My plants are brown, my gravel is brown, the glass grows algae faster than I can scrape it off. Everything just looks rotten and dead. Apart from my Java ferns which seem to be getting better for some weird reason.

Then I notice one of my fish has a severely curved spine, so I brace myself to deal with potential TB, but everything is still alive a week or two later so I'm hoping it's something benign, but it's in the back of my mind that if it is I will loose most of the tank.

Doing a big water change one of my large (probably 75cm or longer) bits of bogwood makes itself loose (my own poor construction I will admit but I can't fix it now it's in place and flooded) and falls over in the tank. For the life of me I can't get it back to where it belongs and for.it to stay there. My carefully planted tank is now all bent as the log has cleaved it's way through a bunch of stems.

After a while of battling and losing to algae I reverted back to a double triple dose to see if that fixed things. Yes, it seems to, the tank is looking more green than brown at least. Perhaps a small victory.

Then I do a rare water test of all parameters and find I have 0.25ppm of ammonia, probably caused by three of my salt and pepper Cory's on a suicide mission into my Eheim skimmer, a device that had claimed far too many of my fish and pumped their decomposing ammonia filled bodies into the water column. Either that or the die off of algae had caused an ammonia spike.

So daily water changes need to happen, that's fine, it's only 0.25, it'll be sorted fast, it's a big tank (350L) with plenty of filtration. On day three (today) my fish are acting very strangely. A lot of the smaller shoaling fish are uncharacteristically grouping up in darker sections of the tank. Other ones are becoming aggressive to each other, my Amano shrimp come out from the plants for the first time in months swimming in the open. One of my little ember tetras, which I've never lost a single one, starts struggling to swim and stay upright, clearly looking like it was on deaths doorstep.

I re-test for ammonia.... 0.5, verging on 0.75ppm. Another huge water change, perhaps 75%, fish acting normal again, for now at least.

I know this thread has zero point to it and I'm just moaning, but I am a sole fishkeeper so I can't moan to folks I know!

Does anyone else get these periods of everything seeming to go wrong in their tank? 

Makes me want to rip everything out and start again. If it wasn't for the fish I have in there which I can't store anywhere I almost certainly would!

Anyway, apologies, rant over.


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## Nuno Gomes (31 Jan 2021)

Epiphyte said:


> Perhaps I'm just getting pissed off because my tank has thrown another curve ball at me. It honestly makes me want to strip the whole thing down and start again.
> 
> First off a while ago I was reading into too much nitrates with a double triple dose, so I reduce my dose down to normal triple dose method spread over a week.
> 
> ...



If you feel like starting over, start over. Nothing a big ikea storage box won't fix. You can keep your fish in there for days as long as your filter and heater are running. Take your time, clean everything and rescape. It feels hopeless sometimes but I've always managed to turn it back around, I'm sure you will too.


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## Nick potts (31 Jan 2021)

Nuno Gomes said:


> If you feel like starting over, start over. Nothing a big ikea storage box won't fix. You can keep your fish in there for days as long as your filter and heater are running. Take your time, clean everything and rescape. It feels hopeless sometimes but I've always managed to turn it back around, I'm sure you will too.


Definitely this.

I don't know if I am odd, but I enjoy the setup and creation of tanks just as much as watching them grow in. If you want to restart it, go for it.


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## Epiphyte (31 Jan 2021)

Oh don't get me wrong @Nuno Gomes, I've considered the IKEA tub tank for a while. However I think I would need to keep them in there for a good few weeks if I were to do this properly as I would be replacing all the substrate to better quality soil, which could of course mean I get ammonia issues at the start.

I guess there is no limit how long the fish could stay in a plastic tub, my only real issue is finding one sufficiently large to cope with a well stocked 350L tank worth of fish.


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## aquascape1987 (31 Jan 2021)

Have you had this scape running long? Eg with the current substrate you have in there?

I only ask because I often find that a lot of these issues, I have at the start of a new scape with a new substrate. I think new substrates depending on what they are often leach ammonia to begin with, which I think may have something to do with this.

Especially the brown algae/diatoms. My life saviour last time was to buy two Siamese algae eaters, who got rid of all the diatoms in a matter of a couple of weeks. After that, all of my issues pretty much went away including many that you have listed here associated with the plants

But yes, I have gone through stuff like this and wanted to destroy and start again. I have done in fact, but it’s just a kick in the teeth to get rid of potentially £100s worth of plants to start again, and countless hours of effort spent, not knowing whether or not it’s going to happen again a few more weeks down the line


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## Epiphyte (31 Jan 2021)

aquascape1987 said:


> Have you had this scape running long? Eg with the current substrate you have in there?
> 
> I only ask because I often find that a lot of these issues, I have at the start of a new scape with a new substrate. I think new substrates depending on what they are often leach ammonia to begin with, which I think may have something to do with this.
> 
> ...


Tank is around 5 months old now. It's been fairly stable up until the last 3-4 weeks where all the problems decided to kick off.

I think I'll see what happens in the next week, otherwise I'll need to find a big tub for my fish


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## Paul Kettless (1 Feb 2021)

I feel your pain and we have all been there, so vent away 😂 I had a major crash on a large reef tank many years ago and lost 85 percent of fish and corals.  The loss of the fish and corals made me feel very guilty, and just the thought of how much money lost is not even worth thinking about.  To this day I still don't really know what went wrong.  I did just that and shut the tank down, it was sold within a month and came out of the hobby for 4 years.  However, the bug for our fish boxes draws you back in.

Only you know whats best for you, keep us all posted with your plans


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## alto (1 Feb 2021)

Care to list your current fish?

Substrate details?

Are you using Prime? 
Read through the Prime FAQ about ammonia testing Seachem - Prime

Though your fish are telling you something is amiss, so you definitely need to do some investigating 

If despite daily water changes (50% minimum at that ammonia level) your ammonia continued to rise, I’d remove the fish soonest
Transfer fish to a bin with maybe 25% tank water, and continue daily water changes until the bin seems stable
Thoroughly rinse both filter to remove all debris, then use in fish bin (the Juwel filter) and rescaped tank

I’d also isolate that SAE with severely curved spine, while it may be some congenital defect (that became more obvious as fish matured - how big is fish now? and when purchased? ), and it’s possibly an ammonia affect (rare to see this without preceding effects on fin and skin and gill tissue), nothing has ruled out Mycobacterium sp. (symptoms vary with M sp. and affected fish sp.)
Mycobacterium infection in fish is terminal, home supportive care with various antibiotics (limiting secondary infections) may improve quality of life and longevity, there has been some limited success with commercial treatment trials (but they’re economically unfeasible and still high mortality rates, so recommended treatment is still euthanasia and complete sterilization of the system)
In a community tank usually some species are more susceptible, and some seem “immune” - at least when the affected fish are removed or die fairly quickly 
(Note domestic Betta splendens has a high rate of infection with 30-70% of shipped fish positive for some M sp. (latent) infection)

Note that your bogwood may be contributing to algae and (possibly subsequent) ammonia issues - recently there have been a few tanks shut down/rescaped after surprising and overwhelming algae issues which were thought to be related to the large pieces of bogwood (in much smaller tanks than yours)


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## Epiphyte (1 Feb 2021)

Paul Kettless said:


> I feel your pain and we have all been there, so vent away 😂 I had a major crash on a large reef tank many years ago and lost 85 percent of fish and corals.  The loss of the fish and corals made me feel very guilty, and just the thought of how much money lost is not even worth thinking about.  To this day I still don't really know what went wrong.  I did just that and shut the tank down, it was sold within a month and came out of the hobby for 4 years.  However, the bug for our fish boxes draws you back in.
> 
> Only you know whats best for you, keep us all posted with your plans


Thanks Paul. I realise I'm hardly the first to have these problems but my god is it frustrating. I'm really leaning towards scrapping the tank and starting again. Maybe even a tank change if I can find something suitable.



alto said:


> Care to list your current fish?
> 
> Substrate details?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your detailed reply @alto. In answer to your questions...

Fish:
6x angels (5 juveniles one nearly mature)
4x nannacara
4x Apistograma
12x Harlequin Rasbora
8x Sterbai Catfish
+ A few other small odds and sods that I've added here and there I've liked. In addition there are perhaps 15 Amano shrimp and 15 Nerite snails. It's a well stocked tank but I don't feel it's overstocked with the extra filter and especially as the Angels are quite small.

Substrate is Seachem Flourite. I bought it all before I really got in to aquascaping as my focus was always on fish, then I discovered aquascaping... I also have root tabs in the substrate. If I rescape the tank I will replace the substrate with Tropica or ADA.

I do use Prime yes and am aware of the false readings with the API test kit. With that said the false readings I've had in the past have been a minor green tint, current readings are noticeably green.

I do have a 80L bin that I use for water changes, I guess I can put the fish in there, I assume they'll be happy enough for a few days. I can maybe ask my LFS if they have some spare room in a tank that I can borrow whilst I fix my issues.

The mycobacterium is concerning me but the fish seems absolutely normal compared to the other SAE in my tank. Both were purchased as juveniles and currently are about 2.5-3" long. The bent one eats fine, swims well and physically looks fine, ignoring the bent spine. I did contact a vet who said she could take a look at it but I'm debating the cost right now.

Bogwood has been in the tank since day dot and, aside of the initial algae + white mould-like stuff in the early days, has been almost entirely algae free. Even now it's really not that bad compared.to plants/gravel/glass. It is something I'll take a look in to however as I'm open to all options right now.


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## alto (1 Feb 2021)

Epiphyte said:


> did contact a vet who said she could take a look at it but I'm debating the cost right now.


I’d ask the vet exactly what she might be looking for/doing  - my understanding is that Mycobacterium sp. identification is difficult without sacrificing the fish

I agree if he seems very active, Mycobacterium is less likely as the reason for the curvature (most fish would show additional  symptoms ... though I don’t recall how much activity change D Walstad noted in her various Rainbow sp as they began to show spinal curvature - she did have the Mycobacterium confirmed in her tanks and just waited on them to pass before cleaning the tanks ); as there are so many fish sp. sold as SAE it’s more difficult to measure “normal” activity & behaviour

I’d expect some noticeable softening of the bogwood if it’s the source of anything - how much can you scrape up with a fingernail?
I was thinking that it’s the source of dissolving organics (contributing to algae and ammonia) rather than covered in algae itself

If you’ve checked the filter (might as well rinse media at same time, I use treated tap water as that’s easy) and there’s minimal debris in the sponges etc, then you can rule that out as a source

I’ve always loved Seachem’s Flourite Red - lots of variation in particle size and colors (not so loved by carpeting plants and a few others, especially compared to aquarium soils)

As you’ve fish to go back in, I’d use Tropica Aquarium Soil rather than Amazonia (re ammonia release and getting fish back in sooner, I’d also recommend Tropica over the much softer Amazonia given your dwarf cichlids and Corydoras)

You can always use ADA Power Sand Special to boost longterm nutrients, also Tropica Nutrition Capsules (scattered the Jurijs mit JS way  ) - as some of your fish may dig I’d not use Tropica Growth Substrate or similar nutrient rich bases (I believe the PS is less available)

I’d place the Amano shrimp in a separate bin (you have another shrimp tank?) as fish trapped with limited stimulation often discover an (intense) interest in shrimp, also the snail as their gently waving antennae may also be quite exciting
The mature angel may or may not decide to enliven Life with some rasbora hunting, so again consider the relative sizes
Also if you feed sparingly in the bin (which I normally would recommend) fish may be more motivated to hunt

If the rest of the fish are quite juvenile, you could also house the mature angel in a separate bin with a sponge filter (you can use some of the cycled sponge from your other filters)

If your LFS is open to boarding the fish, I’d do that as it’s the simplest (though I’d still keep shrimp and snails at home)

Your tank does not sound overstocked at all, even once the angels mature (though domestic bred angels can vary considerably in adult size depending on bloodlines)
I would add another 20 Harlequins


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## JoshP12 (1 Feb 2021)

Just want to add that, that is a normal feeling and the experience will make you more versatile in the future. 

Thanks for sharing an honest reflection - these are much needed for everyone’s sanity.


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## Easternlethal (1 Feb 2021)

I think most people who set up new tanks will be tempted to restart because they tend not to end up like how it was envisaged.

But the process of fixing a tank is where you learn the most imo and nothing is unsalvageable. 

You can still turn the tank into what you want with a bit of patience. It's also less work fixing something than restarting because you don't lose all the weeks and months of bacteria and cycling.

Here is a video of an expert fixing a tank which has crashed:



Might give you some inspiration.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk


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## alto (1 Feb 2021)

Easternlethal said:


> because you don't lose all the weeks and months of bacteria and cycling.


Why would a rescape cause a loss of bacteria and cycle?


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## john dory (1 Feb 2021)

I've had bogwood disintegrate,before.
When you pull it out..it smells like the rancid silt from the bottom of a silty lake/pond.
Obvious algae magnet.
Better off placed in the garden for woodlice to live in.


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## Zeus. (1 Feb 2021)

Epiphyte said:


> Does anyone else get these periods of everything seeming to go wrong in their tank?



Yes.


Epiphyte said:


> Makes me want to rip everything out and start again.



or give up completely  when that happens time to take a very long deep breath, I don't like being beaten by a tank/science, trouble with starting all over again is you never discovered what was the issue, you may find yourself several months down the line in the same position.


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## Emil. (1 Feb 2021)

Sources of ammonia can be many. Disturbed substrate, dead fish, rotting wood, dying plants. Don't give up, I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it soon and it will be an invaluable experience. Nothing else will scare/worry you in the future. 

In the meantime, adding a bit of starter bacteria like seachem stability can't hurt. I'd also focus on making sure that fast-growing plants are doing fine. They are great indicators. Everything else will fall in place eventually. Good luck!


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## Zeus. (1 Feb 2021)

Emil. said:


> Sources of ammonia can be many.


Dosing my 'all' my tanks with Ammonia (Urea) as a source of nitrogen ATM and so far no issues - if ADA and Tropica can get away with it why shouldn't others


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## Emil. (1 Feb 2021)

Zeus. said:


> Dosing my 'all' my tanks with Ammonia (Urea)


I bet your plants love it! Like with everything, the poison is in the dose.


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## Wookii (1 Feb 2021)

Epiphyte said:


> Does anyone else get these periods of everything seeming to go wrong in their tank?



Yep, with almost every tank.

I've fortunately not suffered your livestock issues, but every tank I've set up has experienced algae issues, or plant growth/stunting/die off issues.



Epiphyte said:


> Makes me want to rip everything out and start again. If it wasn't for the fish I have in there which I can't store anywhere I almost certainly would!
> 
> Anyway, apologies, rant over.



It does, but often it isn't the answer. The toughest part of a new tank set-up (for me) are the first 3-4 months. After that period, the tanks always seem to settle into their own system stability, and most things seem to go right. I don't know if its the tank achieving biological maturation, or myself getting to the point where I stop messing with it and changing things every week, but they definitely seem to have to go through that initial period of pain and settling.

For some things it puts me off rescaping, as opposed to driving me to want to rescape, as a full reset means you have to start that whole maturation cycle largely from scratch again (even with mature filters etc).


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## dw1305 (1 Feb 2021)

Hi all, 


Wookii said:


> The toughest part of a new tank set-up (for me) are the first 3-4 months. After that period, the tanks always seem to settle into their own system stability, and most things seem to go right. I don't know if its the tank achieving biological maturation, or myself getting to the point where I stop messing with it and changing things every week, but they definitely seem to have to go through that initial period of pain and settling.


Same for me, <"plants and time">. I *know* that <"good things come to those who wait">, and that it  wasn't the same <"when I started keeping fish">.    

I think some of the issue is that the advice that people are given is variable (<"in both content and quality">) and often it salves your soul to do something, rather than nothing. 

cheers Darrel


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## Zeus. (1 Feb 2021)

dw1305 said:


> and often it salves your soul to do something, rather than nothing.



and then we think of changing light intensity or fert dose/different fert, when all the tank and filter needs is a good clean, removing as much detritus as possible, remove any badly affected leaves etc and a good WC or two, review the amount your feeding your livestock as its so easy to over feed, if using CO2 injection check pH profile, then wait 4-6 weeks and see if things are better. IMO this would be a the sensible approach rather than the knee jerk way we tend to think lights/fert/LCO


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## Epiphyte (2 Feb 2021)

Thanks all for taking the time to reply to my rant. I'm new to this community and I can really say it's a great one to be part of! So many of my hobbies in the past have been full of bitchyness and politics, but this seems like a good place to be. Apologies for the time taken to reply to everyone.



alto said:


> I’d ask the vet exactly what she might be looking for/doing  - my understanding is that Mycobacterium sp. identification is difficult without sacrificing the fish
> 
> I agree if he seems very active, Mycobacterium is less likely as the reason for the curvature (most fish would show additional  symptoms ... though I don’t recall how much activity change D Walstad noted in her various Rainbow sp as they began to show spinal curvature - she did have the Mycobacterium confirmed in her tanks and just waited on them to pass before cleaning the tanks ); as there are so many fish sp. sold as SAE it’s more difficult to measure “normal” activity & behaviour
> 
> ...


I'll have to admit that I got the name of the wood in the tank wrong, I generally just call it "bogwood" but it is mostly riverwood. There are two small pieces of bogwood in there too but they seem structurally sound having given them a bit of a poke and scrape under water. The riverwood is fine too, so I think I'll be discounting that as a source of my ammonia.

Both filters are clear. I wash my Oase pre-filter in Prime'd water weeky and the Juwel internal filter gets it's filter floss replaced regularly and the sponges cleaned every 2-4 weeks too. Everything has been cleaned quite recently.

Can't say I agree with you on the seachem flourite though I'm afraid. It's a nightmare to get smaller plants to stick in as it doesn't "fall" back in place when planting small plants. I quite like Flourite Black Sand though, that's given me really good success in my shrimp tank.

I've spoken to my LFS and the fish room manager is going to see if he has space for me. Thankfully he's a friend so he may be able to get a quarantine tank up and running for me to borrow for a week or two. This is my ideal situation but I won't have an answer until next week.

Tank isn't overstocked sounding because at 2am and half asleep I forgot a few of my other fish in the tank, such as 15 Ember tetras and 8 Rummynose! The tank feels a comfortable stocking level, I could probably push it further but the activity looks about right for a community tank.



JoshP12 said:


> Just want to add that, that is a normal feeling and the experience will make you more versatile in the future.
> 
> Thanks for sharing an honest reflection - these are much needed for everyone’s sanity.



No worries about the honest reflection, sometimes you've just got to vent, you know! 



Easternlethal said:


> I think most people who set up new tanks will be tempted to restart because they tend not to end up like how it was envisaged.
> 
> But the process of fixing a tank is where you learn the most imo and nothing is unsalvageable.
> 
> ...




I agree that learning to fix the tank is a good thing and what is stopping me is if this will just happen again a few months down the line. The problem I'm having is this tank has thrown issue after issue after issue at me. It's just the tanks inconsistancy which I'm struggling with, some of which is down to poor layout making some areas troublesome to reach for maintenance.



john dory said:


> I've had bogwood disintegrate,before.
> When you pull it out..it smells like the rancid silt from the bottom of a silty lake/pond.
> Obvious algae magnet.
> Better off placed in the garden for woodlice to live in.



Thankfully all the wood is in good condition. As above I'm a donut and misidentified my riverwood as bogwood in my initial post, which feels a little more solid.



Zeus. said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> or give up completely  when that happens time to take a very long deep breath, I don't like being beaten by a tank/science, trouble with starting all over again is you never discovered what was the issue, you may find yourself several months down the line in the same position.



Thankfully I have no intentions of giving up on the hobby! It's been a great year or so after getting back into it since I kept fish as a kid and it's done wonders for my mental health over the last year of lockdown. I like a challenge and normally I'd be fine with this, but there is an element of worrying about keeping a safe environment for living creatures which makes it more frustrating.



Emil. said:


> Sources of ammonia can be many. Disturbed substrate, dead fish, rotting wood, dying plants. Don't give up, I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it soon and it will be an invaluable experience. Nothing else will scare/worry you in the future.
> 
> In the meantime, adding a bit of starter bacteria like seachem stability can't hurt. I'd also focus on making sure that fast-growing plants are doing fine. They are great indicators. Everything else will fall in place eventually. Good luck!



Disturbed substrate, this was a worry of mine as when I knocked over a large piece of wood I would certainly have pulled some up. This could be a cause of course but I wonder how long the spike would go on for? I can't seem to get it to stop rising to about 0.5ppm per day, which is the point where I see my fish acting strangely.

I put an EA bomb in the filter around a week or so ago as I put some new (additional, not replacement) filter media in the tank. I could get more but I feel this isn't the issue at this time.



Zeus. said:


> and then we think of changing light intensity or fert dose/different fert, when all the tank and filter needs is a good clean, removing as much detritus as possible, remove any badly affected leaves etc and a good WC or two, review the amount your feeding your livestock as its so easy to over feed, if using CO2 injection check pH profile, then wait 4-6 weeks and see if things are better. IMO this would be a the sensible approach rather than the knee jerk way we tend to think lights/fert/LCO



I learnt this the hard way near the beginning, doing big changes to things to fix issues which probably could have been fixed other ways. I have given the tank a good clean now so I'm hoping we're going in the right direction.

Edit: also decided to buy a sticking plaster in the form of a UV steriliser but am reluctant to fit it until I solve my issues to use it as a preventative measure in the future


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## alto (3 Feb 2021)

Epiphyte said:


> Edit: also decided to buy a sticking plaster in the form of a UV steriliser but am reluctant to fit it until I solve my issues to use it as a preventative measure in the future


Unless you’re devoted to this, I’d spend the budget on new plants and substrate etc
UV are grand in freshwater tanks for clearing “green water” and may possibly help slightly with fish health (though most UV systems sold for aquaria lack UV intensity and flowtime to actually impact potential pathogens that affect ornamental fish)

Given the continuing ammonia release, I strongly advise removing fish - while you may not see obvious symptoms of distress until ammonia increases about a threshold amount - and then that distress seems relieved by water changes to reduce the ammonia - ammonia damage to gill tissue is permanent, and there are biochemical effects as well


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## Epiphyte (3 Feb 2021)

I think you're right @alto.

How long would you keep them in a bin for?

I assume a standard 80L black bin from Wickes will be fine?


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## alto (3 Feb 2021)

I think you mentioned a 19l shrimp tank - I’d place the shrimp and nerites there

Perhaps the ember tetras as well (thinking of predation by the larger fish but look at relative sizes) - obviously if you place the ember tetras in the shrimp tank, you’ll be looking at daily water changes on that as well so if you rarely do water changes on your shrimp tank, this may not be doable 

The rest should be fine in the 80l bin for weeks IF you can fit a filter
I’d still do daily water changes - maybe 25% if that’s easy (just because fish density is relatively high)
Alternate day feeding, daily water change after to remove uneaten food - I find that frozen bloodworms, brine shrimp get cleaned up more thoroughly than flakes (which disintegrate beyond fish interest)
Daily addition of Seachem Prime, Stability will also help water quality 

If bin is opaque, I’d place a dim light so you can monitor fish, feed fish etc

If bin is placed on the floor, consider vibrations - these are stressful to fish (also large predators hovering over/nearby)

I generally look for food grade plastic (it won’t have anti-mould etc additives)

Tearing down the existing tank can go as fast/slow as you make it - though if you don’t have replacement substrate already, this will obviously delay
Just be careful not to push Flourite against the glass (so easy to have a single piece of gravel caught)


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## Epiphyte (4 Feb 2021)

alto said:


> I think you mentioned a 19l shrimp tank - I’d place the shrimp and nerites there
> 
> Perhaps the ember tetras as well (thinking of predation by the larger fish but look at relative sizes) - obviously if you place the ember tetras in the shrimp tank, you’ll be looking at daily water changes on that as well so if you rarely do water changes on your shrimp tank, this may not be doable
> 
> ...


Thanks once again Alto.

I nipped into a shop the other day to get a different ammonia test kit to negate the API one being faulty. Strangely the Aquacare ammonia kit doesn't even change colour, far less show a reading. This doesn't make any sense at all! Had a long chat with one of the chaps in the store who gave some interesting opinions:

First off the SAE is likely, in his opinion, to have torpedoed into the glass at some point and bent itself, something he's witnessed with a whole tanks worth in the store tanks. Interesting theory and would explain the lack of other symptoms. I showed him a picture of my fish and he was almost certain that was the case by the way it was bent.

He also suggested that the reading on my API ammonia test kit could just be reading "locked up" ammonia from the Prime. This also makes some sense, but doesn't explain the strange behaviour of my fish.

Another suggestion for behaviour could be the number of large water changes causing stress on the fish, causing them to act strangely. I'm not sure I agree on this point entirely but I'll take any advice I can get at this point. His suggestion was to leave the water changes for a day or two, then test again.

Sadly I returned home from seeing my partner (both living alone and bubbled for the covid police!) this afternoon to find one of my favourite and longest standing fish, a beautiful male German Blue Ram with some of the most incredible colouration on him, dead on the substrate. I've also noticed an increase of flashing and one of my heavily coloured up pregnant female Nannacaras stuck between a rock and the glass. Again, this seems unusual as a healthy fish doesn't tend to get stuck!

In addition, almost all of my fish are hiding in the shade again. With that said I fed some frozen brine shrimp + garlic today after no feeding yesterday and they demolished it within seconds! So their hunger isn't effected it seems

Honestly I'm clueless what to do. I'm hesitant to gut the tank as right now I'm not in a financial position to replace substrate and other items (thanks covid) and I was intending to replace the tank anyway with a rimless one so I'm not sure I want to spend money on this one.

Water parameters this morning 23.5°C, 0.25/0/>100, pH 7.2, KH 11, GH 19


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## alto (4 Feb 2021)

Epiphyte said:


> Another suggestion for behaviour could be the number of large water changes causing stress on the fish, causing them to act strangely. I'm not sure I agree on this point entirely but I'll take any advice I can get at this point. His suggestion was to leave the water changes for a day or two, then test again.


I agree that water changes may negatively impact fish IFF there is some issue with the tap water

I had this experience some years ago, did my usual water change and some plant trimming etc and all fish were obviously distressed, thinking I’d somehow released ammonia etc from the substrate, I did another large water change, adding extra Prime - fish were definitely getting worse
Tested tank vs tap parameters again, everything seemed normal
By then several fish had died
Eventually all the fish and shrimp died, but some of the fish endured for several weeks
Only thing I could ever come up with was the water maintenance work being done that day not far away

I’ve often done large daily water changes on tanks for various reasons, I manage water changes so that fish are only slightly stressed (wild caught species are often more sensitive to all the activity), fish are consistently “happy” afterwards

If fish are stressed and you perform a large water change, and fish are improved immediately following the water change ... how can the issue with your fish be the water changes???

It’s an old way of fishkeeping (before understanding of the nitrogen cycle, water treatment etc) that believed only aged water could be used to “keep” fish , and you’ll still hear echoes of this among fishkeepers that insist too many/too much water change kills fish, or prevents an aquarium from “cycling”

As for fish hitting the glass hard, only fish I’ve seen do that, died immediately or shortly after - I’m rather sceptical of the body curvature but otherwise just fine scenario
(though fish that are dying from ammonia poisoning (and some other diseases) may begin to curve/curl, this is usually more a bending from head towards tail, rather than the “ripple” effect shown by your SAE - and often accompanied by other unusual behaviours)

Obviously you’re the only one that sees your fish, so follow your judgement

Commiserations on your ram
I agree healthy fish rarely get “stuck”

You can always move fish temporarily to a bin
Then really deep clean the substrate - I’m assuming you’ve a syphon for gravel cleaning - though Filipe Oliveira method should work fairly well also (not as effective with Flourite I think, as it will settle too quickly; I’ve only syphon vacuumed Flourite)
Give wood a check/clean with a stiff brush
Reassemble tank, followed by thorough water changes, test water, return fish etc (I prefer to leave fish in bin overnight and check tank parameters again in the morning before returning fish)


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