# Perpetual Preservation System



## ER Man (26 Aug 2013)

Have started using this dosing system 2 to 3 months ago for my 100 gallon, very heavily planted discus tank. I had been dosing co2, , only for the previous 3 to 4 months with limited success.(2 Kg FE which lasts me about 2-3 months) Since combining the two, plants have grown out the tank, leaves have quadrupled in size, air bubbles from all plants. Dose 10 ml of Trace elements and 10 ml of the suggested mixture of dry chemicals per day via electronic dosing pumps. I also add 4 grams of Potassium Carbonate to my top up water (17 galls) to increase hardness. Check out their web site, I Am in NO WAY connected to or know the people who thought this up or sell the chemicals. In fact I purchased the chemicals from a well known auction site.
I am only an aquarist like everyone else on this site who want great plant growth at the lowest cost.
Good Luck


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## BigTom (26 Aug 2013)

Clive in 5,4,3,2....


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## ceg4048 (27 Aug 2013)

Yes, they discovered these chemicals in year 1856. Have been using them ever since to grow everything from alfalfa to zucchini.
You can also find these at some of our sponsors or at any garden center. Full expose in the Tutorial section of the forum.

Cheers,


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## plantbrain (27 Aug 2013)

Put another way, if you dose CO2 and light, fish etc, but do not add anything, then suddenly add ferts, well, yea, even if the amount is limiting, adding ANY ferts will yield more growth/better planted tank.
The upper bound of dosing(non limiting) is a more useful tool in Science and for the hobbyists. 
This way the ferts are now *independent* of other factors like CO2 or light. So that dosing routine will give you a fert method that target any and every panted tank. 

This way, you can focus solely on CO2(or adjust lighting) as the dependent variables.

Now, dosing non limiting ferts can be modified and slow and progressively reduced and with good observations, able to hit what is called the critical point(90%-100% growth rate). You bump the dosing back up to the last prior amount, that is your target specific to your tank.
Then you can reduce water changes and not need to test or worry about ferts/CO2/light, you can focus on the fish and the gardening. But if you keep larding it on, there's no risk as long as you do good sized water changes, which as a discus owner, you likely do 1-2x a week anyway. 

EI was suggested for this reason and it's simpler than PMDD(which is really the real method you suggest, they(PPS) seem to have plagiarized 95%). Douche baggery. 
EI is hardly new either, most of it came from PMDD, in fact, 95% did. I give credit where it is due.  PO4 dosing is mostly my own suggestion, so that credit is my own, but even there, not really, I just dosed it unknowingly. Another person, Steve Dixon pointed it out and tested it, then I followed it up.
This happened back in the mid 1990's. 


Estimative Index

As there have been many articles written about EI and in many languages now, and it's been around since about 1996.................obviously I cannot control myths and other added content to the methods, many have a very rigid mindset about it.
That is unfortunate.

But we can try and correct folks, offer some history behind it and better yet, offer then a simple tool to make ferts indpendent and then you can focus more on the skills you originally wanted when you started this hobby: gardening a nice planted tanks, not fiddling with test kits, dealing with indirect limitations and algae.

Ah, but what do I know about Discus and planted tanks? Ask my Clients:


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## plantbrain (27 Aug 2013)

A better article for folks to read:
Tropica Aquarium Plants - Rådgivning - Tekniske artikler - Vandplanters biologi - Interaktioner mellem lys og CO2

Stick with adjusting light and CO2.

As you can see from Table 1, plant growth rates(thus demand for ferts) will vary by 20X almost over the ranges hobbyist might keep them.
They used a non limiting fertilizer so there would be no interactions and dependency on the light and CO2. 
Aquarist can do this same method for non limiting ferts easily.
Then focus on the major issues: light and CO2.


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## GHNelson (27 Aug 2013)

Bloody heeeeeeell......
Tom your starting to pee me off....
Stunning as usual...nice one.
Who's this Ammano fella?
hoggie


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## plantbrain (27 Aug 2013)

hogan53 said:


> Bloody heeeeeeell......
> Tom your starting to pee me off....
> Stunning as usual...nice one.
> Who's this Ammano fella?
> hoggie


 

I'll be down there tomorrow to work on this tank again. 
Client left for a few weeks had a maintenance guy dose 10X the correct amount of Excel, well......you can guess the rest.
I'll fix it up and make look pretty again.

Fixing mistakes is most of what I do.


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## ER Man (28 Aug 2013)

Well you certainly know your plants and from the pictures your Discus as well. I haven't got anything like your experience in these matters so its good to know experts like yourself are on this forum and can pass on your knowledge. As I said I have been trying to get the results in your pictures for years, tried various methods, read book after book and the same with web sites to no avail, Just by chance stumbled onto this forum and PPS. Now I can try and emulate your tank pictures in my tank and start enjoying my watery garden and Discus.


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## bridgey_c (28 Aug 2013)

gorgeous discus tank Tom.

what does happen if you dose 10x excel?


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## foxfish (28 Aug 2013)

Hi Mr ER man, we do have experts only too willing to share there knowledge on this forum, not many secrets around at the moment.
Do you have a picture of your tank, it sounds nice?


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## Andy Thurston (28 Aug 2013)

bridgey_c said:


> gorgeous discus tank Tom.
> 
> what does happen if you dose 10x excel?


Lots of poisoned/possibly dead livestock


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## Edvet (28 Aug 2013)

Just another question: i always thought bogplants like echinodorus, which have huge rootsystems in a tank, feed mostly through their roots, so ferts in the substrate are important for them, while more submerged growing plants with smaller rootsystems get more of there food through the leaves,l so ferst in the watercollumn are more important. Is this still true or am i wrong in this.


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## ceg4048 (28 Aug 2013)

Hello,
		When bog plants are actually in a bog, where the leaves are out of water then they feed preferentially from the roots, which only makes sense, however, when the plant is submerged it must change it's strategy to have the ability to feed directly from any interface medium which contains nutrition. That is the reason for the radical and abrupt leaf characteristic change when plants become flooded. Do not assume that the behavior of a bog plant stays the same when the environmental conditions change. Flooding is a traumatic incident for these plants which occurs only during the wet season. There are very few aquatic plants (which we keep) that spend 100% of the time submerged. So during the dry season feeding from the roots is a no-brainer, but when flooded, the plants then adapt.

Think about how long those roots are and think about the distance that the nutrient must travel from the root tip to where it is processed in the leaf. That distance could be a dozen centimeters or more. It costs energy to transport the nutrients, so collection isn't free. On the other hand, if there is a nutrient ion at the leaf, then it only has to travel fractions of a millimeter, as long as it can clear the hurdle of the outer cell membrane. The submerged aquatic leaf is like a soft contact lens. It is permeable and readily absorbs water. The leaf has two mechanisms by which it can uptake nutrients. The first is a passive system whereby the concentration of the nutrient ion in the water determines the uptake rate. So high concentrations of nutrients, if they exist in the water force their way across the cell membranes by simple osmotic forces. When the nutrient concentration is low in the water column, the cell membranes develop a series of protein nodules embedded in the tissue structure. These proteins are highly charged electrically and have an affinity for specific nutrient molecules, so they capture nutrient ions as they pass by.

If you compare the texture and makeup of a bog plant's leaf with that of a specimen that has been submerged for some time, and which has grown new leaves while submerged. You'll immediately see and feel the difference. The submerged leaves are less dense, reduced cuticle thickness and is more flexible.

So the advantage these plants have are many, but "preferential" root feeding is not an advantage in a system where dissolved minerals from run off and from other sources are in the immediate vicinity of the leaf. If the nutrient level in the sediment is high and if the nutrient level in the water is low then possibly more nutrition will find it's way from the roots, but that's just by virtue of mathematics. If the nutrient level in the water is high, then the leaves will have a very high nutrient uptake. It is an advantage to all plants to have the ability to feed from both locations and to be able to do so with ease.

Cheers,


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## Edvet (28 Aug 2013)

I can see that, only i am always astonished when i see the sheer size of an echinodorus rootsystem (grown submersed for a few years) cpmpared to most other plants (i don't have experience with a lot of non south-american plants though).


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## ceg4048 (28 Aug 2013)

Yes, it is fascinating to see the large root system, but there are a few really good reasons for having the well developed root structure that have absolutely nothing to do with feeding. A few I listed in the post el natural questions! | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


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## ER Man (28 Aug 2013)

Hi Foxfish - My tank looks better than its ever been as regards plant growth. Its like a jungle, all those little plants bought to fill a space have quadrupled in size, have issued discus with machetes so they can swim. Will have to thin out.  Unfortunately  as yet unable to load pictures onto forum, not done before so will have to look at instructions, but will try in the near future. On call today waiting for phone to ring so no time to start anything at present. Thanks to ALL who have passed on info and took the time to reply


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## Edvet (28 Aug 2013)

One other question, slightly related. To improve a sandy/small gravel substrate (coarse riversand) would it be better to use claypellets, osmocote "cubes" or something else. I kinda not want to tear out the whole 2 square meters and replace it with akadama or so.......


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## ceg4048 (29 Aug 2013)

Edvet said:


> One other question, slightly related. To improve a sandy/small gravel substrate (coarse riversand) would it be better to use claypellets, osmocote "cubes" or something else. I kinda not want to tear out the whole 2 square meters and replace it with akadama or so.......


Hi,
   Just put some Osmocote in an ice cube tray with water and freeze it. Then remove the cubes and stick them down in the substrate. Or just ignore it and dose the water column. Either way will work. If you want to know more about substrates check this post and the thread links it contains=> Arcadia ArcPod 9w /11w any good? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


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## Edvet (29 Aug 2013)

Thx


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## plantbrain (9 Sep 2013)

bridgey_c said:


> gorgeous discus tank Tom.
> 
> what does happen if you dose 10x excel?


 


bridgey_c said:


> gorgeous discus tank Tom.
> 
> what does happen if you dose 10x excel?


 


He toasted the about 90% of the plants, most of the fish he removed in time, but the scape took a huge hit.
So I get a call. Made a few improvements and we will see in about 3-6 months from now what it looks like.

Another recent examples of the post look on the tank not even 1 month after set up is the 220 gallon now with fish:


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## plantbrain (9 Sep 2013)

ER Man said:


> Well you certainly know your plants and from the pictures your Discus as well. I haven't got anything like your experience in these matters so its good to know experts like yourself are on this forum and can pass on your knowledge. As I said I have been trying to get the results in your pictures for years, tried various methods, read book after book and the same with web sites to no avail, Just by chance stumbled onto this forum and PPS. Now I can try and emulate your tank pictures in my tank and start enjoying my watery garden and Discus.


 

I think you'll get about as well rounded advice here as anywhere.
If you live in the UK, then it's even better. Trades, local get togethers etc.
Then you can see the stuff in person, it's no longer voodoo.

Then there's no debate, back and forth, you _know_.


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