# Nano Walstad tank startup



## sciencefiction (24 Jul 2013)

I thought I'll just open a journal for my not so well aquascaped Diana Walstad method tank.
It used to house a betta but he died during the heatwave here, the tank reached 32C and the betta didn't do well for some reason. So I took the chance to rescape it. It used to be a low tech tank just with plain sand. Light is the very old 11W one that came with the tank but it gets natural sunlight too. Here is the latest picture before I torn down the tank:






So I emptied the tank, binned all the hydrophila and rescaped it. The tank is just 10 days old.  Details and results below:

Tank size-28L

Substrate consists of:
Soil-B&Q Verve food and vegetable planter(My partner got that for his veg so I just risked it)
Mulm-had collected mulm from cleaning the filters on my other tanks, mixed with the soil.
Red earhenware clay-mixed the soil with about 10% clay
Cap-white sand that was already used in the same tank.

Flora-cuttings from another tank:
mexican oak leaf
ludwiga palustrus x repens
anubias nana(was always in this tank)
echinodorus(identified as helanthium or latifolius)
hydrocolyte tripartita
bacopa australis

Pictures on day 1 after planting:






In another couple of days:





Then another couple of days:





Trimmed it once after the above picture and now it's like this as of yesterday:






It has no inhabitants still besides some micro ramshorns(not sure about scientific name) and 2-3 MTS snails. I am still not sure what I'll put in there fish wise, needs to be something very small or just another betta.


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## Michael W (24 Jul 2013)

I'd go with a betta or shrimp. I have the same tank and I plan to stock a Betta this Saturday from Tyne Valley Aquatics providing they have some (fingers crossed).


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## sciencefiction (24 Jul 2013)

Thanks Michael. I already have shrimp in 3 tanks so it gets a bit boring. And I am not keen on another betta as it will remind me of the previous one. I am thinking to get axelrod rasboras.


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## NanoJames (24 Jul 2013)

That's a really nice tank mate, I like it how there's no strict positions of plants like in some of Amano and the like's tanks. More natural! Also, for fish don't cross out micro rasboras. They wouldn't bother any shrimplets that a betta would quickly pick off. Also look at Chili Rasboras! Good luck


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## sciencefiction (25 Jul 2013)

Cheers James. I like Chili rasboras but can't get them easily here so it depends.


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## sciencefiction (27 Jul 2013)

And todays picture of the tank. It's left to it's own devices obviously. The reason I opened the journal is to show one have healthy plants with no CO2 or ferts and expensive gadgets.


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## sciencefiction (12 Feb 2014)

Thanks for the likes lads. Tank is going great apart from the fact that I don't do anything to it. Its out of shape as a result but I'll take a few pictures to update the thread. Plants are thriving.


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## sciencefiction (14 Feb 2014)

Well, that's it at the moment. A bit boring because I haven't rescaped or done anything to it besides cutting the plants. The picture is horrible because I haven't cleaned the glass since setup and there's a flare from the window.
I'll shape it up a bit when I have time.


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## roadmaster (14 Feb 2014)

Is handsome affair,but surely the plant's are receiving nutrient's from the soil no ?
I mean you said No CO2 no fertz,but plant's must get nutrient's from somewhere no?
I hear lot's of folk's make the statement no CO2 ,no fertz, but then they describe soil clay mixture,aquasoil,etc for substrate which would both feed the root's as well as leach into water column, or...they proceed to post a picture of said tank with numerous fishes  which one must assume are being fed= nutrient's from food/waste from fishes.


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## sciencefiction (14 Feb 2014)

I would presume they receive nutritients from the soil and it gets replenished with fish food I feed the shrimp with. But I only feed very little. The tank has seen no ferts or CO2 and sadly no water regular water changes due to laziness but it doesn't seem to bother the shrimp.

I have explained in my original post above what the soil layer is mixed with. It's topsoil with a bit of red clay and mulm from my other tank's filters I had collected. There is no aquasoil but I guess the topsoil had some nutritients.


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## sciencefiction (15 Feb 2014)

Just one more pic a bit clearer I hope. Looking at it now it needs a scrub but the shrimp love that stuff on the glass


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## EnderUK (17 Feb 2014)

I'll be watching your progress, it's looking good.

This is giving me ideas for my old goldfish death trap which is the same tank. I'm thinking no filter, lots of plants, leaf litter with a betta and cherry shrimp.


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## sciencefiction (18 Feb 2014)

It works great with a soil substrate. The only problem I've had is that it gets overgrown easily. The plants become like spaghetti tangled all over the place   I do have a filter though, for flow and redundancy.
Leaf litter is nice but then the leaves cover the substrate and decrease the planting area. I have a leaf litter tank myself but with emmersed house plants instead and some floaters.


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## EnderUK (18 Feb 2014)

I decided that I would order a 200l/hr HOB, as you say for the flow and redundancy, I acutally have the u1 in mine as well, but it's far too big imo. Order a cheap pl11w 6500k blub see if it works, if not I'll strip the hood apart and put in a 13w or 18w ballast.

I'll be going dirt with mine as well. I like the over grown jungle look. I'm looking into plants now I like the look of bacopa australis so I'll keep an eye on how your carpet does as well. Funnily enough I'm going to have to change some of my plants of choice cause 3 of them are the same as yours and I promise I wasn't looking at your tank when I was on aqua essential ha.


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## sciencefiction (18 Feb 2014)

Get what you like.   It can never look the same.
 Bacopa australis is a very easy grower, it grows floating as well with no problems and it doesn't need good light to grow but it does need one to carpet. I had it carpet in another soil tank I have,which has LEDs. Carpeting can be promoted if you trim the bacopa to the bottom with just a couple of leaves left, then it will send flat runners. I also had glosso carpet in the LED  tank which also isn't dosed or has any artificial source of CO2.
The light over this tank is crap, it's several years old and is just 11W and I set it up with soil last year so I don't think it will ever carpet in this tank to be honest.  And I think it's due to the light possibly. However, nothing else is different between the two tanks bar the light unit. Both have the same soil setup and good flow.

Good luck with your tank. I am sure you'll be pleased with the easy and consistent results topsoil provides. I've never had to deal with any type of algae and plants just grow. Some may go through a period of adjusting until they adapt depending on the plant.


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## sciencefiction (18 Feb 2014)




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## sciencefiction (13 Apr 2014)

I tried to take a picture but I don't seem to be able to get a decent one so a short video below which is also awful. I still haven't cleaned the glass so sorry for the hazy glass.


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## sciencefiction (2 May 2014)

I noticed today some bubbles coming out of a plant, pearling like activity  It's pretty cool so I took a short video. I haven't yet done a water change to trigger it(not in the last year anyway ..) Please excuse the ugly pink heater.


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## sciencefiction (4 May 2014)

Bought 3 baby ottos today,the last ones in my local shop, just acclimating them and they'll go into this tank but not permanently. I'll eventually move them to a 5f tank.  I hope the poor things make it. They are very small and underfed but I adore ottos. My other 4 I've had for a couple of years are like aeroplanes, very active.

The water they came in has a TDS of 390ppm and they are now going into a TDS of 200ppm so hopefully I won't shock them much.


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## sciencefiction (4 May 2014)

The ottos seem to have settled well from what I can tell. They are like butterflies inside the tank this moment cleaning up everything. They haven't stopped munching on stuff so I hope I'll see fat bellies soon


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## sciencefiction (5 May 2014)

Well, one of the ottos is a very poorly and not as active as the other two. He's perched on a leaf or on the glass not doing much.  I don't know what I can do for the poor thing.

His caved in belly


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## EnderUK (5 May 2014)

I'd put him down, there's no coming back for that little fellow. I've only had a 50% survival rate with otos (from pets at home), that's after having acculmizing using the drip method.


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## sciencefiction (5 May 2014)

Thanks EUK
I think you are right. This one won't make it. He's been staying on the same spot since I posted earlier. and is not munching. The other two are very active, their bellies today look to have rounded and they eat constantly.

I don't have any clove oil so don't know how to put him down.


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## EnderUK (5 May 2014)

May seem cruel but it's quick, take him out, put him in a plastic bag and hit him with a hammer. I hate doing it, but it's part of fish keeping.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (5 May 2014)

I'm having the same troubles with one of mine; the others are doing just fine, as are the shrimp and the tetras, but this one was just lying on his side. Have him quarantained for now, and will see what he looks like in the morning. He was doing just great earlier this day, so odd, but I have read some things regarding Sudden Oto Death Syndrome, seems to happen quite often. These are my first ones, and really liked them, so am prettu gutted.


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## EnderUK (5 May 2014)

I've had them swimming around, go crazy and just drop dead. I've had them last a two weeks then suddenly lose all their weight which is usually the end for the little ones. As long as they're foraging around eating with fat bellies then they'll usually pull through, it's when they stop eating they're in trouble.


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## sciencefiction (5 May 2014)

EnderUK said:


> May seem cruel but it's quick, take him out, put him in a plastic bag and hit him with a hammer. I hate doing it, but it's part of fish keeping.



Thanks. I suppose I should aim at the head mainly  I am not brave enough yet...but I'll see how it goes.



Vinkenoog1977 said:


> I'm having the same troubles with one of mine; the others are doing just fine, as are the shrimp and the tetras, but this one was just lying on his side. Have him quarantained for now, and will see what he looks like in the morning. He was doing just great earlier this day, so odd, but I have read some things regarding Sudden Oto Death Syndrome, seems to happen quite often. These are my first ones, and really liked them, so am prettu gutted.



Poor things. I've heard it depends how they catch them. They don't all make it once you buy them but if they make it the first couple of months they are indestructible almost.

I have 3 other ottos I've had for a couple of years doing fine and a zebra otto for a year. He had a buddy who died from a mysterious hole on the side of his body some time ago.   I think he stabbed himself onto something in the tank. I moved the loner then with the ordinary ottos and he parties around the tank with them. I would love to buy him zebra buddies but the prices are a bit steep.

When I bought my first 3 ottos over 2 years ago, I had a casualty as well, but at the time I knew nothing about them and didn't pick them myself, the shop assistant just scooped 3 out. I got a replacement for the one that died.  He never looked good. His colouration was different to start with(his back was black and white instead of black and brown). But I can't recall looking at his belly as I didn't know what it was supposed to look like at the time.
At the same time I also bought a tiny baby bristlenose plec who also made it through just fine, driving me crazy these days as he's very bold.
This otto wasn't looking good, in fact all 3 weren't looking good when I got them but I decided to risk it and see because they weren't gonna make it in there anyway. The one on the picture though has been left to get too skinny to survive. I think he's still on the same spot, poor thing.
Lights are off and I'll see tomorrow if I get brave enough to end his misery.


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## Vinkenoog1977 (5 May 2014)

Mine were looking great as well, like I said, the other two are doing just fine, as is the rest of the tank. And this one was doing great as well not ten hours ago, and two hours later, there he went. I won't euthanise him yet though, I'll give him the night to recoup, gave some extra pellet food just in case (hasn't touched it yet though), and we'll see. I've had some more Lazarus-fish, only a couple of days ago, the crows decided to pester my goldfish in my balcony pond; they don't eat them, they don't kill them, they just pick them out of the pond through the mesh on top, and chuck them on the floor. Found one this Saturday, had gone completely stiff, the scales were crusted with dirt from the floor, but just before I binned him, I thought I saw some movement. So, about ten minutes of cleaning and moving him through the water to get some gill movement, there he was, back again. Was eating five minutes later. So I'll give this little chap the benefit of the doubt for now. Have killed the flow in the Q since he did not like the water movement, but have hooked up an O2-pump, on minimal, just for some water movement and extra oxydation. Fingers crossed!


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## sciencefiction (5 May 2014)

Hope you have some luck with them. Fingers crossed for you.
The ottos I've had for a couple of years never ate any pellets or any veg. They refuse to try and I put regularly for the rest of the fish all sorts of fruit and veg. I've no idea what they eat.  Hence I make sure I put the new ones in this tank that has some sort of biofilm/algae to grasp at. It's early to tell, if any last a month or two they may make it.


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## Lindy (5 May 2014)

The only thing mine will eat is cucumber. 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## sciencefiction (5 May 2014)

Nope, they won't touch it. I put cucumbers at least once a week as it's everyone's favourite. Never seen ottos on it and I always looked as I hoped one day they will, but so far 2 years nothing. I know most peoples ottos eat veg but not mine. If they ate veg or any pellets I would have had a tank full of them by now. I love them.


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## sciencefiction (5 May 2014)

Here is a video of the two "healthy" ones.  They discovered the filter flow and were playing with it for a good while. I had left the window blazing for a full couple of days prior which grew me some algae on the front glass as expected. That ludwiga in the middle has been "blowing bubbles" every day 3-4 hours after lights are on. I am guessing it's getting the most light.


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## EnderUK (6 May 2014)

Mine never touch algae pellets and usually avoid most veg though they do like red pepper, they go crazy for almond leaves after they've been in the tank for a week or two.


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## parotet (6 May 2014)

What I do is to ask at the LFS how much time they are there... (At least two shops in my city label the tanks with the arrival date). And I only buy the ones that have been there at least 10 days. There is a thread somewhere here explaining that bacteria on their stomach can be severely damaged after some weeks traveling from their origin. Thus buying a fish that has been at the LFS some days means that this fish has not suffered or is recovered... Before doing this I lost 2 of 5 fish, in just 24 hours with a very similar behaviour you describe. Once I did this, I could replace the 2 dead ones and an additional one without any loss.

Jordi


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## Vinkenoog1977 (6 May 2014)

That's a great tip Jordi, will be sure to ask that next time. Cause even though the little fella past away last night (RIP), I really like these little fish. And still, the rest of the tank, and the other two Oto's are doing just fine.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2014)

Well, I found a dead one but to be honest it doesn't look like the one with the sunken belly on the picture but another one. I am not sure yet but the dead one doesn't seem to have such a sunken belly.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2014)

A bit of a relief, the two that are alive don't have a sunken belly.
The dead one must have eaten himself to death last night (only joking ) Or is probably bloated from being dead. His belly was green and my shrimp were having a feast on him when I found him. It's not bloated but doesn't look half as bad as when he was alive.


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2014)

Guys, my two ottos are BREEDING!!! Just saw them in a lock position. I can't believe it


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## sciencefiction (6 May 2014)

I wonder how is it possible these two little ottos breeding. I can't tell a difference between them in terms of their belly. I presumed an egg bound otto would have a big belly. But I saw what I saw, it's similar to what my corys do and I just double checked youtube so they are indeed trying to mate.


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## Edvet (6 May 2014)

Nah one is trying to drown the other i bet


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## sciencefiction (8 May 2014)

Cherry shrimp riding the moss over the filter. I actually don't know how that moss found itself on top of the filter in the first place but it's loving it there. It grows in the direction of the filter flow and both the shrimp and baby Malaysian trumpet snails love hanging in there. It catches particles from the filter.


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## sciencefiction (9 May 2014)

Well, I increased the light duration from 6 to 8hrs. Let's see what type of algae I can grow for these ottos. The window helped a bit for a day but the ottos seem to have stripped the glass of anything their mouth can get.

I put blanched zucchini for the ottos, but as usual no attention at all. The shrimp and snails are happy though. So far the ottos have been active and have rounded nice bellies.


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## sciencefiction (15 May 2014)

A few more pics of the tank. Sorry about the reflection from the window, tried to block it but couldn't fully. And the suction cup with the zucchini too, still trying hard, the ottos seems to land on it from time to time so I keep one in there till they start eating it.



 


One of the ottos



 

The ottos are quite small. This is an anubias nana and look the size of the otto compared to the leaf(right side)


 

And here below some dirty glass, snails and what appears to be a slight invasion of green dust algae of some sort


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## sciencefiction (17 May 2014)

I had increased the light to 8hrs and then I noticed that the ludwiga closed it's leaves and shied away from the light after 6hrs. It closes it top leaves and moves the stem sideways. The tank does get from the window hence I had run it on only 6hrs but it was funny that the plant just refused to use the light after 6hrs as if telling me I've had enough  So I reduced it down.
I grew this ludwiga on as long as 9hrs and higher light in another tank and I had never noticed the same.
Anyone got any idea why?


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## Greenfinger2 (17 May 2014)

Hi Sciencefiction, Stunning nano


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## sciencefiction (17 May 2014)

Thanks greenfinger.  I'll pass on your kind words to the snails and shrimp as they've done more than I did


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## sciencefiction (21 May 2014)

Well, good news, the two ottos started eating zucchini to the point that they'd "sleep" on it. Although I had blanched it for a couple of minutes in the microwave it seems they like it most when I am about to remove it on the 2nd day when it's gotten rotten soft. My common pleco also "sleeps" on his veg even if not eating them all at once, in order to protect them.
Anyway, I've got a pair of very nice round bellies swimming around the tank  One day I'll have a shrimp and lots of ottos only big tank.


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## sciencefiction (21 May 2014)

I guess no point removing the zucchini anymore


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

The ottos are spawning right now again. I clearly saw them in "T" position and one of them which I presume is the female is extremely plump in comparison to the male although it's the same length yet. I thought it overate on zucchini and spinach I am putting almost daily.  They are going around plants together cleaning the leaves first and then mate. I am just not sure what otto eggs look like and how long it takes for them to hatch if they lay any as I can't see.  I am going to have a nice look when the lights turn on.

These are very small ottos so I never expected they are capable of mating so small but I surely have a male and a female trying to at least


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

I managed to get a bit of a video although not great it shows the "T" position when the male wraps himself around the female's mouth. It's uploading now so I'll post it when done.


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Ok, so here it is. First you see the female cleaning the underside of a leaf and the male waiting in the foreground of the video. He was next to her cleaning for a while with her prior to that. Then he goes to her and offers her his belly and wraps around her mouth after which they both swim away but they don't always swim away from what I am seeing and at least the female tends to stay on the same leaf she's cleaned.

the T position is at around 0:29


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Here is a slightly better view of the "T" position. Please excuse the reflection


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## Greenfinger2 (26 May 2014)

Cool


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Thanks greenfinger. I have to find the damn eggs now to see how they look like  I'll live it to nature and see if any wigglers appear. I am gonna load myself with zucchini and spinach and hope for the best though from what I am reading rearing otto fry isn't very easy. I am not sure what they eat in the early stages of their life.

The young teenage parents have been at it for hours now.


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## Greenfinger2 (26 May 2014)

Hi Sciencefiction , Do a Google On Them


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Cheers greenfinger. I've been googling


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## Edvet (26 May 2014)

Maybe try to get some biofiolm on some smooth rocks: put them in a tank underwater outside in the sun, throw some rabbitpoop in it or some dead leaves, Let the rocks get a nice slimy coat and put a fresh on in the tank each day. Keep alternating them.


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Thanks Edvert, that's an option I'll consider. I used to do that for my adult ottos in another tank but they ate the algae on the stones in a day so it isn't practical as a daily feed but for otto fry it could be crucial.
The problem is in this small tank I've no room to put stones unless I rip plants out. I've been reading about spirulina based powder the first week poured over plant leaves and after that they supposedly start eat blanched zucchini. 

Anyway, I am going to have to wait and see if I'll have to worry about raising otto fry  but I'll keep an eye for wigglers 
The pair is now greedily demolishing some spinach I gave them just now. They instantly go onto veg I put on the same spot each time. I do the same in my other tank with 4 ottos and none of them show any bit of interest ever so I am quite delighted these two are easy to feed.


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## Jake101 (26 May 2014)

Amazing dirt nano. My next project definitely.


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Thanks Jake, the easiest tank I've ever had.  And strangely enough those two ottos are breeding in water nearly 1 year old...


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## Greenfinger2 (26 May 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks Jake, the easiest tank I've ever had.  And strangely enough those two ottos are breeding in water nearly 1 year old...


 They must like mature water


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## Jake101 (26 May 2014)

Well, have you ever heard anyone changing water regularly in a South American river?


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

I am not sure what to think about it.  But they clearly like it in there so I won't worry about "old" water for now


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## Edvet (26 May 2014)

Jake101 said:


> anyone changing water regularly in a South American river


 209000 qubic meter/sec


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Edvet said:


> 209000 qubic meter/sec



Wowsers, that's some filtration 
I guess I can't achieve that in any tank.
The reason I am not changing the water is because this tank is odd and the TDS dropped over time from 300 tap to 200ppm in the tank and it's been steady at that. The cherry shrimp are breeding well and I know they stop breeding when the water is in a non-acceptable range.  And now with the ottos breeding I won't disturb them. Otherwise I've no problem doing water changes. It takes a few minutes on this tank size.
And I do 50% weekly to another tank with 2 year old ottos who are yet to even attempt breeding so not sure what to think about that.[DOUBLEPOST=1401131237][/DOUBLEPOST]Just curious, but is the "209000 qubic meter/sec"  water that comes from upstream down stream so not really "new" water but the rate just indicates the current/flow speed?
How does water in nature get refreshed? I thought it's all about it being "filtered" naturally through plants, soil bacteria, etc and not being contaminated in any way.
Diana Walstad says in her book somewhere that water in a well balanced planted non-water changed tank is normally better quality than what one can get from the tap. I am not sure if this is true as there is no way for me to test anything properly and I am not sure what is "good quality water" when it comes to fish.


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## Jake101 (26 May 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> How does water in nature get refreshed? I thought it's all about it being "filtered" naturally through plants, soil bacteria, etc and not being contaminated in any way.



Not an expert, but big part of the waste if not used by biological activity (plants, bacteria) ends up in the oceans. Oceans on the other hand return rather pure water to freshwater systems by evaporation and precipitation.

And there are unbalanced freshwater systems, which are somehow contaminated. In many cases by humans.


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## Edvet (26 May 2014)

The number is what the amazon puts out into the ocean afaik.


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## sciencefiction (26 May 2014)

Edvet said:


> The number is what the amazon puts out into the ocean afaik.



That makes better sense now. I wonder what is the mass of water in the amazon river to calculate how much per gallon of it flows into the ocean. Then we may get to filtration rates(or rather natural water changes)  I am not even sure why I want to know


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## roadmaster (27 May 2014)

Nature provides current's,tides,rain's ,to help carry away pollutant's as best it can.
Fishes are able to swim from one area to another that they might find more comfortable.
Neither of these thing's can happen in glass box of water.
Sadly ,stream's ,ocean's,river's,are becoming increasingly polluted.


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## sciencefiction (30 May 2014)

Tragedy struck. I hadn't seen one of the ottos for a couple of days so I started actively looking. I found it  stuck between the suction cups and the frame of the internal filter that holds the filter to the glass. This happened to me before with my smallest otto of the 4 I have in another tank with the same filter but I found it on time and it recovered from a few bruises and torn fin probably from trying to get out. I am kicking myself for not checking earlier. It doesn't look it's been dead for long.
I am totally devastated.
The otto looked like it was alive so must have died only  a few hours ago and it was missing for more than two days. I knew I had to check behind the frame straight away I noticed the otto missing. I am such an idiot. They were such a happy couple. The other one is munching on a zucchini but is probably missing his girlfriend as it was the female that got stuck. I am so pissed off right now.


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## Jake101 (30 May 2014)

Sorry to hear . It sure is a lousy feeling.


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## sciencefiction (30 May 2014)

Thanks Jake. I went out and bought another otto. I hope it's a female. And it's slightly larger.
Once they grow a bit they won't be able to get stuck behind the frame. I have it firmly attached to the glass now so there are no gaps hopefully. It's when the ottos polish the glass and go side ways and they find themselves behind it if they are too small. Then they can't get out. I left the poor thing die there, I should have checked a day ago as I had the odd feeling it got stuck there because I remembered it did happen exactly to an otto before but I was lucky the last time to find it still alive as I checked within the first 24 hrs I noticed.


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## sciencefiction (30 May 2014)

I actually just found a baby otto but not in the otto tank but my shrimp tank I am taking apart. The other day I moved a couple of cuttings from the otto tank and I did check the leaves for eggs but saw none. I totally ripped the shrimp tank apart today as I am putting soil as a substrate, had the filters off already and just now while looking for shrimp I saw this baby otto below. It must be a newborn as it has it's egg yolk still.




[DOUBLEPOST=1401474531][/DOUBLEPOST]Wow, guys, I just added the new otto to the tank and they are in "T" position already!!!!! I can't believe it, I got myself a female for sure


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## Jake101 (30 May 2014)

So they day wasn't a complete disaster after all . Your ottos seem to be very happy.


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## sciencefiction (30 May 2014)

I'll be watching like a hawk now behind the filter frame. Until they grow this can happen again so I'll do a head count every day. The new otto is very healthy and has a nice belly and is already feeling at home.

Now if I have a newborn in the other tank which I must have moved accidentally as that tank housed just shrimp and one platy,  I must have some newborns in this tank too but maybe I can't see them.....hopefully...


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## tim (30 May 2014)

Would it be possible to fashion some foam or filter floss to fit in the gaps between filter and frame/glass less chance of them making their way in.


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## sciencefiction (30 May 2014)

tim said:


> Would it be possible to fashion some foam or filter floss to fit in the gaps between filter and frame/glass less chance of them making their way in.



That's a great idea Tim. I surely can stick something in between so they can't get in there. I just have to figure how to do it.

Here is a pic of the filter frame. The gap is where the two Malaysian trumpets are on the picture. The gap seems wide enough still


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## tim (30 May 2014)

Maybe some filter loss sheet with holes for the suction cups to stick through ? Lovely little fish ottos wish you luck with raising them.


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## sciencefiction (30 May 2014)

Well, I just did what you suggested. It made me sweat but I've wedged filter floss in between the glass and the frame and they shouldn't be able to get in. The shitty filter got full of air as I took it out and it wouldn't start back. I had to give it a right shake  inside the tank for like 2 minutes and I must have scared the poor fish but at least my mind is at ease now they can't get stuck behind the frame.


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## sciencefiction (1 Jun 2014)

A short video of the newborn guy in the other tank. I don't know how long I'll keep him alive but he's cute and seems to be cleaning the dirty glass already


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## sanj (1 Jun 2014)

Wow excellent stuff. Good capture on the Otto bonking. Hopefully you will have some more babies. I use Sera micron which is a powdered food with a large amount of spirulina in it to feed tiny rainbowfish fry. You could use that or spirulina powder mixed with a little aquarium water and pipette into the tank. Careful with quantities though, keep to small doses.


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## sciencefiction (1 Jun 2014)

Thanks sanj. It's going to be hard as there's just one little otto in this tank and a few baby shrimp I couldn't catch.
I was actually taking down the tank completely when I saw him/her so all plants are in a bucket, all shrimp in another tank as I was ready to take the substrate out and put soil.

There are diatoms forming on the glass since I disturbed the tank so hopefully this will give him a head start and I'll try feeding blanched zucchini. If he makes it, great, if not, at least I can set my tank back


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## Jake101 (1 Jun 2014)

Active little bugger. The weirdest soundtrack of any aquarium video I've ever seen .


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## sciencefiction (1 Jun 2014)

Jake101 said:


> Active little bugger. The weirdest soundtrack of any aquarium video I've ever seen .



Star Trek. I have someone at home obsessed with it


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## sciencefiction (1 Jun 2014)

Taking videos while the otto baby is still alive. I have slight elevated reading of ammonia. Test shows 0.1ppm. I did a large 40-50% water change and dosed with prime. I am gutted now I ripped the plants out and all the crude I released must be causing a slight reading.  I did compare it to my other tanks and the colour is definitely greenish on the jbl test where my other tanks are yellow.

Anyway, he seems unaffected so far(hopefully) and is munching onto something on the glass.

Edit: Typed the ammonia level wrong. I had a 0.1ppm reading, not 0.2ppm though it makes no difference to the poor thing.


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## sciencefiction (1 Jun 2014)

Is it too early to feed him blanched zucchini I wonder? I am not sure he can find it but I can stick it next to where he prefers to stay near that sponge filter.


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## sciencefiction (2 Jun 2014)

The water tested clear now and I was looking for the little guy everywhere, couldn't see him. I had put a zucchini yesterday that wouldn't stay put on the glass and had fallen in a awkward position on the sand so one side was hidden to me and here he is, waving it's little tail between the snails munching on it.


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## tim (2 Jun 2014)

Good to see the little guy surviving.


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## sciencefiction (2 Jun 2014)

I am obsessed with this guy   He'll probably die on me when I don't expect but he's trying to survive anyway and is picture worthy despite my poor camera and skills. Here he is with his bunch of new friends


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## Jake101 (3 Jun 2014)

I must say, I am already a huge fan of this little fella. Run, Forrest, run!


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## sciencefiction (4 Jun 2014)

Since I ripped the plants out in that otto fry tank brown diatoms now coating the glass and today I see a tinge of green dust too on it.  I left the light 12hrs last few days.  I wonder if I actually did good for the little guy this way as he/she is happily polishing the surfaces and the "parent" otto tank is a tad too clean in contrast. The adult ottos seem to have almost eaten what had build up.  I increased the light back to 8hrs there and will keep it that way as otherwise it can't sustain enough algae. I just hope I grow the right type if it grows.

 The ludwiga has grown pink tips at the surface although its not a red species even in high light, looks nice enough.
The tank is crying for a trim but I want to use some plants in the fry otto tank once it's available for planting. The fry is doing well so far and today he looks a bit more like an actual otto.


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## sciencefiction (4 Jun 2014)




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## sciencefiction (6 Jun 2014)

The dilemma I am having now is how long to leave the blanched zucchini for. It goes very mushy eventually but it seems that's when the little one stays on it the longest. The first piece was eventually eaten fully with the help of the snails but since I am intending to have a piece at all times now for the little one maybe it's a bit too much on the bioload. I am not sure really, the water tests fine and I've been doing 10% water changes daily.

Todays' picture. The glass is getting populated with all sorts of algae now without the plants in.


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## dw1305 (6 Jun 2014)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> blanched zucchini for. It goes very mushy eventually but it seems that's when the little one stays on it the longest. The first piece was eventually eaten fully with the help of the snails but since I am intending to have a piece at all times now for the little one....and I've been doing 10% water changes daily


 Should be fine, if you don't blanch it it will stay intact a bit longer, but as you've found Otos really like it when it is a fairly slimy microbial soup.

cheers Darrel


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## parotet (6 Jun 2014)

I don't blanch zucchini, this way everyone is happy: shrimp love to take small pieces when still fresh and Otos join the banket once it becomes slimy


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## parotet (6 Jun 2014)

parotet said:


> I don't blanch zucchini, this way everyone is happy: shrimp love to take small pieces when still fresh and Otos join the banquet once it becomes slimy


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## sciencefiction (6 Jun 2014)

Thanks Darrel and Parotet. I don't blanch the zucchini for the plecos as they eat the lot of it fresh.   But for a baby otto I have no idea. My old 4 ottos never took to either blanched or fresh so I am not sure. The newer ones are loving blanched ones. I have to try a fresh one and see because it doesn't fall apart at all if fresh but it's normally eaten before it becomes mushy by the more vigorous eaters which is a problem with ottos.


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## X3NiTH (6 Jun 2014)

Every single creature that I can see in both my tanks even down at a macro level will devour any Spirulina or Chlorella I add. If I add it to the shrimp tank by using a tiny amount diluted with tank water via a pipette, the tanks substrate turns white within minutes due to the fauna there rising to search it out and eat it. I have to get sneaky with it and mix it with Genchem Recipe to thicken it a little so it comes out the pipette like toothpaste, this way I can strategically place it where the shrimps can get to it before the snails and substrate fauna do. If I thicken it a little more then I can use it like a paste and coat something that sinks to substrate or floats on the surface or even smear it onto the glass walls of the tank. For completeness I also use Genchems shrimp supplements Biozyme (Protease, a-Amylase, Cellulose) and Aminovita-P (Amino Acids, Vitamins & Enzymes) and occasionally garlic powder in the mix, I feed both tanks with it since i have shrimp in both but the fish adore this mix the most. I can hand feed all my fish with a pipette loaded with the stuff, they get vaguely curious any time I pick up the fish food tub next to the tank but if they see me holding a pipette they go nuts, I will feel their physical contact on the pipette the moment the tip touches the water because they go at it like a pack of sharks. Occasionally I mix a paste up with the whole lot of ingredients listed above with a variety of thawed frozen worm mixed in and then coat a bead tied to a short piece of fishing line hanging from a fishing float, I then pull up a chair and watch as the fish go into a hierarchical feeding frenzy as the bead goes in the water.

Spirulina and Chlorella are both superfoods, you can buy packets and tubs of the stuff from health food shops, its not cheap though at £30 a kilo for Spirulina and £47 a kilo for Chlorella, thankfully you only need grams of the stuff, I bought a quarter kilo and quickly realised after first using it that I had just bought a lifetimes supply, lol.

I'm sure a Spirulina Dip Coated piece of zucchini would entice your baby otto.


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## sciencefiction (8 Jun 2014)

Thanks everyone. I'll certainly research the stuff you are recommending X3. It's just that in a tank populated with a few snails and one fry its hard to feed anything without it going moldy and compromise things. So far I haven't added any food bar a zucchini piece at all times. If it doesn't work out this time I'll try a different approach next time if there's one 

Here is short video of the otto fry from today. Please turn down the volume as the background noise is horrible.


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## sciencefiction (8 Jun 2014)

And a picture


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## Greenfinger2 (8 Jun 2014)

Hi Sciencefiction, Great thread  The baby is so sweet


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## sciencefiction (8 Jun 2014)

Thanks Martin and Greenfinger.
Fingers crossed for the little one.


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## sciencefiction (11 Jun 2014)

The little guy is doing well but the daily zucchini nearly blocked the filter to a point I've never had before.. It was full of slime inside and it never gets like that so I blame the juice from the zucchini.

Anyways, a picture of the development of the oto fry. He looks like a miniature version of the parents and even now has a solid black line on the side and not zig-zag one but can't take a proper picture with all that scum on the glass which he actually eats eagerly.


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## sciencefiction (11 Jun 2014)

I am sorry about the blurred video but it's my camera and it just refuses to focus for some reason. But you can see fast mouth in action. I think the fry is about 2 weeks plus minus a day


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## sciencefiction (11 Jun 2014)

And just want to show how much he looks like an actual adult otto from the side although he's as long as an average Malaysian trumpet snail. His lateral line is solid now.


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## Edvet (11 Jun 2014)




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## sciencefiction (11 Jun 2014)

Thanks Edvet. It's a cute little fish.
I am now in two minds when to introduce more solid food like an algae wafer. I've got plec pellets that contain Fish and Fish Derivatives, Derivatives of Vegetable Origin, Algae, Oils and Fats, Minerals, Molluscs and Crustaceans.
I wonder if that would be ok..... It's a soft type of pellet by New Era. The problem is it seems I am having very happy snails now the most and I don't want to pollute the tank as it's very easy do it by accident with no fish to eat the food fast. Plus I have no idea if it won't do harm as his little belly may not be able to digest it. I've no idea...

I tried blanched spinach as well and blanched peas but the otto fry had zero interest in them. It's only interested in polishing the glass and the zucchini. The algae growth is at halt now and I see clear patches which is a concern although it will take a while for this size otto to eat all that had build up.


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## tim (11 Jun 2014)

You could try to culture some algae, smooth pebbles or cobbles in a clear tub of old tank water on a south facing windowsill may work, in my early fish keeping days pre ukaps I had plenty of algae covered cobble stones from a goldfish tank I'd move 1 a week over to my tropical tank and the ottos would polish them clean over night.


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## Edvet (12 Jun 2014)

I found out my oto's (amongst others) appreciate cooked sweet potatoe, worth a shot while you get your stones hairy


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## Greenfinger2 (12 Jun 2014)

Very cute


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## sciencefiction (13 Jun 2014)

Thanks Edvert, Tim and Greenfinger2. I'll try your suggestions.
I actually tried the algae wafers on the adult ottos. I even hung it on a suction cup and besides the shrimp no one else got interested so I don't see how this little one would be either.

It's funny that after supposedly catching all the shrimp from the otto fry tank when I was about to empty it,  I can now count at least 17 baby/juvenile shrimp I had missed and which were probably going to be accidentally killed. They must have been too small for me to see then and now have grown a bit.

I am now noticing the otto fry spends more time on the glass itself the last few days and not so much on the zucchini as he used to. I wonder if that's a change in diet requirements. Another thing I noticed is that no matter where I place the zucchini he'll find it almost immediately but prefers to hang around the side that receives the most flow, not sure whether it's because of the flow but I see no other reason.

Apart from that, the new female otto I purchased to replace the one that died is doing well.  However, I haven't seen these two spawn since the first "T" position upon introduction of the female on the first day.  I think that was just a way for them to say hello . I've been having problems since with the temperatures rising too high because of the hot weather so I did daily partial water changes for a while with cold water as the tank is next to the window and gets way too warm too fast.  As a result my TDS has shot to 300ppm as in the tap water. That may have an effect on spawning, I am not sure. I hope not.

On another hand the extra sunshine and the increased photoperiod to 8hrs have not resulted in any algae blooms at all in the adult otto tank.  I am not sure whether to be happy or unhappy over it as I was hoping for some green otocinclus edible algae.


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## sciencefiction (13 Jun 2014)

It's amazing that I can notice the otto fry's growth day by day. I don't know if he's getting longer fast enough but he's getting wider as well now.

Here he is today with a nice rounded belly and trailing poop...


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## Greenfinger2 (14 Jun 2014)

Hi, He- she is doing well


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## sciencefiction (15 Jun 2014)

Thanks greenfinger2.

The question is when it would be safe to move him to another tank. The tank to which all the shrimp from this tank went has grown diatoms because of the sudden increase of bioload and will be very much suitable as it only has khuli loaches and no other competitors for algae or veg, or predators but it does have a bigger version of the filter with the killer back frame. The otto is too small to get caught behind it though...I think.  But I am not sure how he'll take to the move and it's probably too early.  If it were any other fry I wouldn't be afraid. I've moved cory fry with no issues. But I know nothing about otto fry. If I lose him, I'll have a 100% loss 

My poor plants are still in a bucket to which I move the light every night so they are still very much intact but from what I can see they've become kind of tangled looking competing for light in there and will have funny shapes when I take them out.[DOUBLEPOST=1402825852][/DOUBLEPOST]And a clearer video


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## sciencefiction (18 Jun 2014)

This thread kind of turned out a journal for an otto fry but I'll keep it up as it's hard finding progress on otto fry online and someone may get benefit one day.

It's around 21 days old today:


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## Greenfinger2 (18 Jun 2014)

Hi , Great thread  Keep the updates coming


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## sciencefiction (20 Jun 2014)

Not a great shot but gives a better idea of the size of the otto at 22 days


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## sciencefiction (22 Jun 2014)

I did a massive trim on the adult otto tank. Basically I cut all the ludwiga down to nearly the bottom to free some space as it really was tangled all over like a proper jungle. The sword plant is also throwing runners like crazy, I've removed about 10 already. Plants grow very fast in this tank, especially now the with the sunshine.  I discovered my anubias has grown huge beneath all the jungle of ludwiga.  It shoots new leaves constantly and one day it will overtake the tank if I don't cut it. It's taking up about 1/3rd of the planting area.

And I stirred up some detritus worms. Yay  They are tiny and swimming in the water column now.  I didn't know I had them as I normally don't have any strange creatures at all besides seed shrimp. The worms look like a really nice snack for tiny fish or fry. Which is an idea as I won't keep the two ottos in this tank forever, way too small for their active behaviour. I'd love some micro middle swimmers in there one day.
Anyway, I suppose I must be overfeeding a tad bit too 
And the two adult ottos have gone bananas now, maybe they like the space or I upset them too much.

And, I have more plants in the holding bucket now than I can put in the otto fry tank once I change the substrate so it will be really, really densely planted.  Though I haven't decided what and how I want it scaped.

The little one at 23 days from yesterday.


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## sciencefiction (25 Jun 2014)

So when you think you've caught all shrimp from a tank and you are ready to take it down, there could be at least 50 more shrimplets!! I just took about 47 juveniles out that have now grown up to be perfectly visible and there are more!!
I had to take them out as they've become breeding age and I don't want any more tiny shrimplets being born in the tank. 
I did notice I hadn't caught them all, I even counted around 17 at some stage but 50  Where the hell were they hiding in an empty tank


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## Greenfinger2 (25 Jun 2014)

Hi,Think they use a Invisibility cloak  Glad you found them though


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## sciencefiction (25 Jun 2014)

Ha, ha. Cloaking is prohibited by the Federation  They've broken the laws


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## sciencefiction (27 Jun 2014)

I caught 57 shrimp in total out of the otto fry tank  Honestly, it looked empty I would have never said there were so many in there. Also,  I wonder how many shrimp I had in there prior to emptying the tank because I had moved out tons of them already.

Anyway......this  picture is so gross, I had to put it up 
So far I've been growing an algae factory, a snail factory and I even saw fresh water limpets appearing which I haven't had in 2 years. All of this without one bit of fish food, just the constant zucchini slice inside which gets replaced promptly after a couple of days.

The otto fry is inseparable with it's poop  I think it's around 1 month old now. It's getting ticker and ticker.
Today I blocked the gap behind the internal filter frame in the tank I intend to put this otto in.....just in case....
 I'll have to wait with the move because I made a big mess trying to clean the never cleaned before 2nd filter which is a trickle filter planted with emersed tropical plants and I want to make sure the water quality is fine in there.




[DOUBLEPOST=1403896619][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh, and I forgot, I found a fish egg in my other tank inside the powerhead, it was viable looking so I plopped it in the otto fry tank. I am not sure what it is, could be a cory egg that didn't get promptly eaten as usual or a forktail rainbow egg.
I may have jinxed it though because I cleaned the filter, stirred up a lot of junk and tried to siphon the floating detritus so the egg may have been unlucky and gone down the drain, I hope not.


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## sciencefiction (2 Jul 2014)

Well guys, I finally got brave yesterday and moved the oto fry to another tank. I just scooped him out and dropped him.

I had a disaster happen prior to it. The trickle filter of the same tank I moved the otto to was trickling water down the light unit cable, straight into the socket inside the cabinet! The importance of loop!! That's the 2nd time it happens to me.
All electricity went down yesterday evening including in all 5 tanks and I knew where to look for the problem this time...

I found the water, it wasn't too bad and I managed to fix the problem of the electricity failing to start after unplugging the problematic devices. There was water in two plugs and I replaced them. Anyway, this killed the light unit in that tank as it was the main one causing the problem.  It is a very very old Chinese unit integrated into the hood. So now I am short of lights and have to move a light unit between tanks until I buy yet another light unit.

However, one of the filters in where the otto fry had failed to restart  without me noticing for a while and by the time I managed to fix it which was the powerhead inside getting some filter floss on it, I had made an awful mess in the tank.
I first did a water change but then just bit the bullet, waited for the otto to reappear and straight next door he went.

So he is now in his new temporary or permanent home, yet to decide.
The otto was at first spooked by the higher flow as the tank is a tad overfiltered but I think he's getting the hang on things and learning where it's ok to hang himself upside down on the glass.
I think ottos are way tougher than one may think.

Well, here is him shiny self:







 
and a better glimpse of his new habitat. I love this brown play sand.


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## Greenfinger2 (2 Jul 2014)

Hi Science fiction, Glad all is ok well apart from the lighting unit  You were luck you did not damage more Put the loop in this time 
The Otto looks happy in his new home and feeding


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## sciencefiction (2 Jul 2014)

Thanks GF2. I was very lucky indeed. With so many cables around it's not impossible to have an accident but this time I took extra preventative measures and I blocked the holes in the cabinet so water can't drip from outside. It's always this stupid trickle filter and I was fiddling with it the other day for maintenance and I must have caused it then.

I hope the otto will be ok in the new tank. Time will tell. He tends to disappear in there because of the décor but comes back to the front glass often as usual.


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## sciencefiction (4 Jul 2014)

The otto seems to be doing ok but it doesn't get much zucchini anymore


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## Tim Harrison (4 Jul 2014)

That's some achievement...They've bred in my low-energy tank before but not a single offspring survived...


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## sciencefiction (4 Jul 2014)

Thanks Troi, I didn't do much at all.
The otto fry was really an easy one so far to be honest but I was lucky to have a diatom outbreak and he went for the zucchini immediately. Then green algae of some sort appeared on top of the diatoms  so he kept munching. And after moving all the shrimp to the 2nd tank I got a second diatom outbreak lol and he's in there now.  This little otto was really lucky as I hadn't seen so much diatoms in years [DOUBLEPOST=1404513807][/DOUBLEPOST]Can you spot the otto 
He does prefer algae on the glass now but at the very start he only seemed to eat the zucchini. He/she is so cute.


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## sciencefiction (11 Jul 2014)

Getting bored myself of updating this thread but for anyone reading the little otto is doing great in his new tank but doesn't go for the zucchini at all anymore so I won't bother putting it that often as that bunch of shrimp in there is crazy hungry.

The adult two ottos are doing great but no spawning yet though today I saw them cleaning leaves together and chasing  and I got excited temporarily but didn't stay watching if they spawned or not.

I haven't got around of setting up the ex baby otto tank yet and my plants are still in a bucket, some now trying to grow emersed.


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## Andy D (11 Jul 2014)

I'm reading!


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## Greenfinger2 (12 Jul 2014)

I'm still reading too


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## parotet (12 Jul 2014)

Reading!


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## Gruff (13 Jul 2014)

That oto eats more veg than I do!


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## sciencefiction (13 Jul 2014)

Ha, ha, yes. I was thinking that I give my fish better diet than I give myself. Today I went to the shop to buy prawns and mussels for my clown loaches. I haven't eaten them myself in ages.  I had a pizza yesterday lol


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## sciencefiction (13 Jul 2014)

The otto doesn't actually touch the veg anymore. And I can't blame him not eating zucchini when " beef steaks" are growing on the glass 

A month and a half old now.





I think I am getting the hang on diatoms and know how to grow them, well kind of as its my first consistent effort. Overfeed the tank, keep light low enough for long enough, fertilizers in the water column, lack of plants and regular water changes just in case because of overfeeding.


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## sciencefiction (14 Jul 2014)

The otto actually looks bigger on pictures than he is in reality. He's only about 21-22mm long and about 2-3mm wide.

How to raise otto fry 

1. Pick the filthiest tank you have, preferably one that hasn't got a substrate vac in 2+ years.
2. Place 2 day old otto fry in it.
3. Uproot all plants, try to make as much mess as possible while doing so. 
4. After water clears, catch all remaining shrimp and snails.
5. Unplug the filters
6. Go shopping
7. if baby ottos are still alive, plug back filters 

If you pass step 7, then proceed:

8. Add two plants, add 3 oak leaves or similar.
9. Add blanched zucchini, replace every 2nd or 3rd day.
10. Leave lights on for 12hrs+, switch off when you think of it.
11. Change a bit of water daily carefully as to not to disturb the tons of mulm covering the sand.  Add fertilisers occasionally to keep algae growing.

Results achieved: Algae factory, snail factory and happy otto


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## sciencefiction (15 Jul 2014)

What I find interesting is that the algae, in the tank where I previously kept the otto fry, is fast receding on its own. I have a couple of platies in it at the moment to keep the filters ticking until I set it up but almost all algae has disappeared itself, only a bit left on the right side as in the picture below. And now I am even feeding food daily. Algae is odd, it ran its course it seems.

The diatoms are long gone but they got replaced by green sort of algae, I suppose green dust, which is also now almost gone. I have not touched the glass to clean it.


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## sciencefiction (23 Jul 2014)

Got sick of cutting the sword plant shoots so I pulled them on top of the anubias and now growing a second layer of plants mid water lol


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## sciencefiction (1 Aug 2014)

A couple of pictures of the little otto below who's about 2 months now I suppose. He doesn't seem to be growing fast, or at least he's still way smaller than any otto I've seen in a shop. He refused to eat zucchini anymore. I presume he had enough of it when he was tiny, but I tried cucumber and he went for it, although not immediately. He is otherwise always polishing the front glass 95% of the time and isn't skittish at all, very used of splashing and water changes.
The adult ones have not spawned, not that I've seen but they seem to be doing great otherwise. It was quite warm so temperatures were up to 28C but they didn't mind.


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## Greenfinger2 (2 Aug 2014)

Now that just too cute  Looks like he is going to bed with a nice big fluffy duvet


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## sciencefiction (2 Aug 2014)

Ha, ha, yes. The cucumber was in there a 2nd day before he "tried" it and got a bit "fluffy" . My old ottos that I've had for a few years aren't keen on vegetables too. I guess they find enough to eat in the tank.
I can't wait to mix the little one with his dad and stepmom for company to see how he'd react to other ottos.


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## sciencefiction (3 Aug 2014)

Well, I moved the two ottos from the small tank to a 5f tank.
I was watching my other 4 ottos playing like kids in my clown loach tank, utilizing all the length and height and these poor two have no space to swim in a 7g tank.  It also gets overgrown pretty quickly and they just squeeze themselves in between the plants and behave a bit static in comparison as they barely have areas to "clean".
I just got a plastic cup, scooped them out and in the 5f tank they went. The stats are almost identical in both tanks as far as testing goes and they went to work immediately polishing stuff so I hope they'll be ok. No more breeding attempts at least for a while as no fry can survive the platies. They are crazy about their own fry and are the only fish that I have that eat fry. Even my clown loaches don't touch fry and some are 5-6 or 7 inches(not sure) but they are in another tank anyway.
 There's a pleco in there that will compete for the veg but he's such a skittish fish he won't come out during the day unless I stick the food under his nose where he hangs out so I think the ottos will manage.
 I also have 30+ corys and some aging platies in the same tank. The platies won't get replaced when they die and I want just corys and lots of otocinclus tank as they live in nature together.
When the little otto fry gets bigger he'll join these two in the 5f tank but the platies will bully him now as he's still tiny.   I can use my 7g for raising some fry that need plants or its very handy for quarantine as its established and all fish I quarantined in it I still have as they did well from the start, apart from the otto that got stuck behind the filter frame.


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## sciencefiction (16 Aug 2014)

Well guys, as much as I wanted to convince myself that my two ottos were fine in a 7g tank, you just can't imagine the level of activity now they are exhibiting in a 5 foot tank. Its like a paradise to them and I have to promise to myself never to put fish in a small tank ever again, not without a reason and not for a long time.  It's not about immediate health, the behavioural change is amazing. I call ottos butterflies because in a big planted tank they don't stop, they go from leaf to leaf and I never ever see them hanging on for ages on one spot. They never hide because they are always moving doing something. So I am happy now about their well being and they seem quite happy to me.

As for the little kid, he/she is some active little thing. He does flaps and dances around the glass and is hyper active, definitely feels at home... But he's still quite small and grows very slowly.  It's been like two and a half months since his birth. He's got nice round shiny belly and a fat tail, dark line across and dark top colour. He eats something from the glass all the time, but lads, are they slow growing....no wonder its not feasible to breed and raise ottos.


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

My overgrown little tank below. You can tell that it "aquascapes" itself so apologies for the messy look.


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## Greenfinger2 (22 Aug 2014)

Hi, I like the wild look


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Thanks guys.[DOUBLEPOST=1408710806][/DOUBLEPOST]I suppose if I ever bothered to clean the glass or trim regularly/replant and if I had an optiwhite tank not an ancient box like this and proper camera owned by a capable photographer,  it would look way better.


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## Tim Harrison (22 Aug 2014)

I thought it was called a jungle scape Either way...very nice and healthy.


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

He, he Troi. I guess that's what some people call it. I'd call it " Icannotscape"


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## liam11712 (22 Aug 2014)

I like the more natural look. It looks really good


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Thanks Liam. What I like is the lack of any effort in such "jungle" tanks. I can go on holidays for a month and it will be just fine, almost the same, just probably overgrown. The problem is going on holidays. That part doesn't come easy


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## liam11712 (22 Aug 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks Liam. What I like is the lack of any effort in such "jungle" tanks. I can go on holidays for a month and it will be just fine, almost the same, just probably overgrown. The problem is going on holidays. That part doesn't come easy


Yeah I know what you mean lol

Mines kind of going the same way I really like it gives the fish plenty of room to explore which is good


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## dw1305 (22 Aug 2014)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> What I like is the lack of any effort in such "jungle" tanks. I can go on holidays for a month and it will be just fine, almost the same, just probably overgrown. The problem is going on holidays. That part doesn't come easy


 I know what you mean about holidays, but heavily planted low tech tanks are definitely more resilient. 

I like them because often I'm away from the tanks for 2 - 3 weeks, and it means that I don't have to worry about anyone feeding the fish etc whilst I'm away. 

I think when "BigTom" originally designed the "Bucket O' Mud...." the idea was that it would look after itself for ~6 weeks whilst he was on field work on St. Kilda. 

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Tom's bucket was the reason I went into soil tanks and the emersed plants in my other tank. I totally loved that idea and his tank was always amazing, his new one also which I am following with interest.
 Yes, my two soil tanks would go longer than 2-3 weeks without any intervention apart from feeding the fish and I guess one can skip a week without feeding them too. The only problem is my big tank is open top and water evaporates but this tank here almost doesn't and sometimes its gone months without me doing anything at all to it apart from feeding the shrimp.


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## liam11712 (22 Aug 2014)

Well Im def going to follow this and id love to see you other tanks


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Thanks Liam.
You can click on the link under my post where it says "Disaster". That's my other soil tank from start about a year and a half ago till now.  It's gone through a few mishaps but still kicking.


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## liam11712 (22 Aug 2014)

sciencefiction said:


> Thanks Liam.
> You can click on the link under my post where it says "Disaster". That's my other soil tank from start about a year and a half ago till now.  It's gone through a few mishaps but still kicking.


Lol mishaps happen ive had a few with my new one and its only 2 weeks old lol what fish are in the tank now?


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

liam11712 said:


> Lol mishaps happen ive had a few with my new one and its only 2 weeks old lol what fish are in the tank now?



The same fish I had all along, red platies, corys, a pleco and cherry shrimp, they are still kicking, and ottos, but its the two I moved from the little tank.


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## nickmcmechan (22 Aug 2014)

Like it


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## sciencefiction (22 Aug 2014)

Thanks Nick.


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## sciencefiction (28 Aug 2014)

A picture of my moss below that grows on the filter. It's full of tiny shrimplets and also baby Malaysian trumpets. I love my ramshorn snails. They are so nice when they grow bigger.




I tried to take a picture of the baby otto and couldn't get a decent one but a large female cherry was posing instead. She's huge.


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## Greenfinger2 (28 Aug 2014)

Hi Sciencefiction, Very nice  Love the snail and the Shrimp. She is a big one


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## sciencefiction (28 Aug 2014)

Thanks GF2. She's a grandma and seems to like the "black branch" she's perched on


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## sciencefiction (6 Sep 2014)

Took a picture of the little otto just now. The thing is over 3 months old and is still tiny....




 


And one more picture of the little tank before I chop it down.


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## Tim Harrison (6 Sep 2014)

Small but perfectly formed


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## sciencefiction (6 Sep 2014)

Thanks Troi. Yes, it looks very healthy and is doing very well but it seems to grow super slow, it's no where near the size of the smallest ones you could see in a shop. I just didn't expect ottos grow so slowly but when I think of it my older ones took a year or two to grow as large as they are now, the females are quite large.


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## sciencefiction (10 Sep 2014)

Well, I think I never posted my tank after a trim. It looks ugly enough lol. This time I chopped lots of anubias as well that was trying to climb the right side of the glass and was having space problems and was also grown in between the glass and the filter out the back. I hate moss, bits flew everywhere, I removed almost all of it, poor shrimp are not happy.


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## sciencefiction (10 Oct 2014)

The little otto is as little as ever, but is a very acrobatic one, flying like a rocket around the tank but I can't see much growth out of him since the last picture. I moved in with him one of the adult ottos a few weeks back because the tank glass is covered with green algae which followed the original diatoms,  and the adult otto seemed like he needed a bit of extra in his diet, plus I was curious to see if the baby otto would get excited with a bit of company.  And he did, plus the adult one got very fat too  I felt sorry for the remaining one in the 5f tank as he was all alone and that tank is ridiculously free of algae so today I took the plunge and moved him in with the other too.
So now it's kid, his dad and his stepmom all in one tank and right now three of them are gone crazy chasing each other around the tank. It's very amusing watching them. Maybe they'll spawn They are the only fish middle/top tank and have it all to themselves and seem quite happy in there undisturbed.
The tank is about 120-130 litres so its still better than the 7g tank they all came out from.


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## sciencefiction (17 Oct 2014)

Please excuse the poor picture but its because of the green algae covering the glass.
It's the two adult ottos on the left, their bellies looking green because of the algae covered glass, and the kid otto is on the very right of the picture  so some size comparison can be made. The small one is about 4.5 months I think.


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## sciencefiction (23 Oct 2014)

The series of ugly blurry pictures continues....


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## Pinkmummy79 (27 Oct 2014)

Just read every page, top stuff SF, love it all


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## Jake101 (28 Oct 2014)

An amazing low-tech approach.


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## sciencefiction (29 Oct 2014)

Thanks guys.


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## sciencefiction (1 Nov 2014)

Honestly guys, I have never seen such happy ottos since they are all back together. I think they are the happiest in this current tank they are in. They are adorable to watch and are inseparable. They chase each other a lot and what I've noticed is that the most they love are the scattered stones on the bottom and the fine sand. They also seem to love to launch themselves in the middle of a shrimp fiest 
Normally ottos are very much around the sides of tanks, middle way, or on top of plants but this tank is not really planted, just a few anubias, and the bottom is free from clutter. And they just hop around like rabbits from stone to stone.  And it's not that they eat the algae from the stones while doing that, but they use the stones like trampolines to launch themselves to the next  one  Totally adorable. I must try to take a video. The tank has a very strong flow to about 18x and I am wondering if the "river" type environment is what they like.


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## Michael W (1 Nov 2014)

They will definitely appreciate the flow! Ottos are amazing fish, you can never get enough of them, if only people understand that they need to be in groups instead of buying one or two for algae purposes.


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## sciencefiction (1 Nov 2014)

Yes, it could be the flow that they like so much. This is their third tank and I think I've seen a vast improvement in behaviour despite this being the least planted.  One of the filters also spreads micro bubbles via the venturi. I've seen videos in nature where the live in swamps and oxygen deprived conditions but I guess that doesn't mean they don't appreciate a better environment 

And they are very, very social with each other. I would get more ottos, only if growing algae wasn't such a hard task sometimes


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## Michael W (1 Nov 2014)

I don't know if trick this has been mentioned before, but what I did when I was keeping whiptail catfish was placing pebbles in some water by the windowsill to let the algae take over. I will place some pebbles in and once the algae was cleared I then switched stones, this had allowed a constant supply of algae for them. My whiptails rarely moved until the night, most likely due to their instinct in acting like a twig so it was hard to feed them even if a algae tab was in front of them. An added bonus of this method was the natural look and it doesn't not impact on water quality.


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## sciencefiction (1 Nov 2014)

Thanks Michael. Yes, I've tried that myself. Here, where I live in non sunny Ireland it's hard or almost impossible growing algae on the window. That small tank for which the thread is opened has always been next to the window getting natural light as well as artificial and right now it's totally free of algae, especially now into the winter time as there's no sunshine. So I am a bit stuck. I actually have a couple of planted containers on the window sill and they are clear.  In the summer I may be able to when the sunshine is back.

If I had a strong small LED I could actually grow some separately in a container with some ferts but I don't have currently any extra light I can use.


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## sciencefiction (6 Dec 2014)

Hey everyone, thanks again for all your comments and support.

It's been a while. I just wanted to say that the little otto is still smaller than the adults but has grown quite a bit because I confused him with the adults for just a moment.  I must take a picture.  I lost track of how old he is but I remember the month of May this year for some reason so since then...., whatever the date. It's really a learning experience because when I bred corys for example they were quite large at maybe 4 months the most, and not to mention live bearers and the likes.
With ottos it seems it takes way longer to get to the size you buy them in a shop because mine is half way through only, about...... Maybe I am doing something wrong, I don't know... but he looks healthy and the belly is full.

And I love them. The three ottos in this particular tank are having the laugh of their lives because they are in a tank with just very peaceful kuhli loaches and cherry shrimp only. They are so, so active and so entertaining. They land in the middle of a cherry shrimp feast quite often just to check what's going on. And my other four ottos in a community tank are so skittish in comparison, they are actually the bullied ones.

 I will one day have just ottos and peacefull bottom dwellers in a larger tank. I know ottos and corys together are common in nature and I love both species.

On a side note, the little tank is doing good.  I trimmed quite a lot of it again, that's all it ever needed normally, but it has developed a white film on top and I wonder if it has to do with the less light exposure as it's next to a window and there's almost no sunshine during winter. I am pretty certain the same happened last winter. I am just leaving it run. The shrimp are doing great so I am not worried.


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## sciencefiction (17 Jan 2015)

Hey all.

I have been lazy. I tried to take a picture once of my "baby" otto alongside the adult ones but by the time I got the camera he had moved and there's no point for a single one because it's deceiving.
Believe it or not, he must be about 8 months old and is way smaller than the adults though he looks healthy and has a thick tail and rounded belly.

My small tank for which this thread is opened is ridiculously overgrown, not even good for a bad picture but has been totally algae free so besides very tangled plants, it's looking good in person.


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## JMorgan (8 Feb 2017)

parotet said:


> What I do is to ask at the LFS how much time they are there... (At least two shops in my city label the tanks with the arrival date). And I only buy the ones that have been there at least 10 days. There is a thread somewhere here explaining that bacteria on their stomach can be severely damaged after some weeks traveling from their origin. Thus buying a fish that has been at the LFS some days means that this fish has not suffered or is recovered... Before doing this I lost 2 of 5 fish, in just 24 hours with a very similar behaviour you describe. Once I did this, I could replace the 2 dead ones and an additional one without any loss.
> 
> Jordi


Sorry just started reading this journal as I'm definitely due another DW tank, but I'm aware this post was from years ago. Even so I thought I'd relay some excellent advice I was given on otocinclus, which is:

They were eating in the wild before capture, so there's a strong argument to get your hands on them the second they arrive in the store. Don't wait to see if they survive the LFS's care unless you're very confident the LFS is going to take exceptional care of them. This would include always putting new otocinclus deliveries into different tanks that have really decent algae growth, where so many LFS's have an appointed otocinclus tank that's permanently stripped bare of any algae, so they starve as they need a constant food source to graze on! Its actually a really good question to ask to assess a store's basic fish-keeping skills as to whether they rotate the otocinclus tanks?

Second is de-worming - few stores are willing to spend money on appropriate deworming for wild caught fish as its just cheaper to see which ones pull through than spend money on meds. Either way, its really worth using something like API's general cure for internal parasites the moment you get them home. This is just going to maximise the percentage of the food they take onboard that can go directly into their growth rather than growing more worms or parasites.
Third is whether or not the store is making some effort to wean them onto an appropriate prepared food, whether thats being able to see them munch on veggies or repashy or spirulina tablets - doesn't matter which that much, but the store making the effort is!
Lastly, if you have space, and they don't take up very much, buy at least ten otocinclus - they are very prone to stress related problems simply from being suddenly deprived of enough tankmates to shoal with, living with hundreds if not thousands of their kind in the wild. This stress combined with internal parasites will see them off, when in the wild they could cope with the parasite burden no problem. 

Bottom line is that few LFS's know how to take really good care of otocinclus, or someone in head office has determined that its not cost effective to do so, so get them into YOUR care as soon as possible after they arrive. Of course if your LFS is good then giving them time to recover and to be fattened up make loads of sense.

cheers


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## sciencefiction (26 Jan 2018)

I just realised its been 4.5 years since I opened this thread and the little tank is still running, although quite neglected....There's been no heater in years, no ferts, no nothing, just snails and some surviving shrimp which I very rarely feed these days.......

Here are a few pics I just snapped. Basically the anubias has taken over....


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## Edvet (27 Jan 2018)

I realy like those "wild" tanks. Just open it a bit in front so you can see in.


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2018)

Ha, ha. It has certainly grown "wild". There's anubias trying to grow behind the filter  I should probably give it shape but haven't really paid attention to the tank in a long while. The tank itself is about 7 years old now.


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## Tim Harrison (27 Jan 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> I just realised its been 4.5 years since I opened this thread and the little tank is still running, although quite neglected


It's one of those great tanks that's ecologically balanced and biologically stable and will probably continue to thrive with minimum intervention almost indefinitely. 
I agree with Ed; maybe just open it up at the front a bit, is all.


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## sciencefiction (27 Jan 2018)

Its very hard to "shape" anubias because it will look just ... sort of badly cut.....well...at least I am not very capable of doing it.  In the summer, when the tank gets more light, some of the old stem plants, the tank used to house, try to "wake up" from "hibernation" in the soil and grow a bit so perhaps I can do that then. To be honest, no-ones looking at that tank anymore. Its like furniture


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## alto (28 Jan 2018)

But where are the Otos??????


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2018)

The ottos were there temporary. I moved them out to my kuhli loach tank. Then that tank broke, I moved them again. Then the tank I moved them to, which housed a bunch of other ottos I had for some years, also broke and I moved all of them to a small tank. I lost all my ottos then. I had a very unhappy fish period around 2016, lost a lot of fish.  My clown loaches spent 2-3 months in a 80l tote at the time until I got the pond..


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## sciencefiction (28 Jan 2018)

alto said:


> But where are the Otos??????



You know who's actually still alive and used to live in this little tank?....Soapy story to follow 

In 2012 while browsing my local fish shop I saw a singlet cory in a green barb tank looking fairly poorly. The green barbs were taking turns at nipping its fins right in front of my eyes. The poor cory had nowhere to go in the bare small tank it was housed and was just sitting in one spot not moving at all or trying to get away. I went to the shop attendant demanding they move the poor cory out of there and pointing the damage done already. He then said, do you want it? I'll give it to you for free 

Hist top fin was severely damaged, he had his fins clamped against its body as well, pretty stressed at the time. I took it home...

It recovered completely and it lived for a while under quarantine in this small tank with my beta at the time who got very fond of the cory and the two would just "sit" together attached like glue. I have never seen such love story  and had pictures of that too but they're all gone with imageschack...Then I moved it to live with the rest of my corys.  It lived through all my tank breaks over the years, and is on its 4th tank now, living in the pond. I was never able to find the same species of corys to give it friends and I tried pretty hard. The only option was very expensive wild import that goes trough Germany for quarantine first....There are similar species out there but not the same. The cory was identified as C142 at the time.

Here it is straight after acclimating and placing in the small tank for quarantine....It's been probably 6 years since that picture was taken, and it now lives in my pond with the clown loaches.


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## Tim Harrison (28 Jan 2018)

Over the years I've seen this sort of neglect quite a lot in fish shops, and it always makes me turn on my heel and head for the exit.
It's heartening to hear stories like this with a happy ending


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