# Advice Required - 180 litre planted not doing so well...



## dfinn (22 Mar 2015)

Hi everyone, I'm here looking for a bit of help with my tank.

It has been set up as it is for about 5 months now and I just don't seem to be getting much growth/ things are dying plant wise. Specs are as follows:


Tank - Juwel Rio 180 (180 litre)
Lighting - 2x 30W T8 with Reflectors on for 7 hours/ day
Substrate - Nutrasoil where plants are, sand at front
Filter/ Heater - Standard internals
Co2 - Easycarbo 3ml/ day
Ferts - Aquarium Plant Food APF Complete Plant Nutrition 15ml/ day
Can anyone advise as to changes that could be made to improve things?






Thanks,

Dan


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## Andy D (22 Mar 2015)

Can you post some clearer shots of the plants and their problems areas?

First thing I would do is remove the reflectors to reduce the light intensity and relieve some of the stress on the tank.

What is your cleaning routine?


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## dfinn (22 Mar 2015)

Hi,

Will get some clearer shots of the plants tomorrow for you.

Reflectors are now off!

Cleaning..honestly I would say a 20 - 30% water change every 2 weeks.

Thanks,

Dan


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## Jay1 (22 Mar 2015)

I would up the water changes I do at least X2 per week as I know my water has nitrates which I have to control and its useful to feed the plants! 
There is always good minerals in tap water and everyone who has decent tanks do more water changes than I?
Read up on estimated Index fertz feeding (EI dosing it might help!)
Jay


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## Martin in Holland (23 Mar 2015)

50% water change once a week would help, also agree with Andy to remove the reflectors (but you already done that), maybe get some floaters too. Cut off effected leaves, this will encourage new growth.
I love your barbs, by the way, nice active fish.


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## foxfish (23 Mar 2015)

Hi Dan, are you getting algae issues or is it just not much growth that is the problem.


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## dougstar (23 Mar 2015)

hi dan  from you picture seem that your filter has been blocked buy floating  leaves ect this will reduce flow i would make sure that filter can do its job.
you could put the juwel 1500lph pump in you filter. and maybe a pump/internal filter opposite to your juwel filter. this will just help with more flow.


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## ian_m (23 Mar 2015)

Jay1 said:


> I know my water has nitrates which I have to control


How do you know and why do you want to control ?


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

A few problems you might be having and their causes:

1- CO2 fluctuations. You need to off gas excess co2 from your tap water. This way plants dont have to adapt to different co2 levels, melting in the process.

2- Not enough flow. And not enough surface movement for gas exchange. Your co2 is going to come mostly from the atmosphere and the easy carbo of course.

3- The ferts that you are using might not be the best. As mentioned before read aabout EI powders (also in the link).

4- All this can be made less bad by lowering the light as suggested before.

Read this very thoroughly its mostly all in there: http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/planted-aquarium/low-tech-planted-tank-guide/

By the way, you can do water changes with this method but you need to let it seat in a bucket or something for 48 hours or so just to let the co2 in it off gas to the atmosphere.


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## stu_ (23 Mar 2015)

foxfish said:


> Hi Dan, are you getting algae issues or is it just not much growth that is the problem.


This is the question,I'd like to see the answer to.
Personally I'd worry less about gassing off the tap water,and get more flow in there as suggested previously.
I run my Rio low tech,without reflectors.As well as the internal,I also have a Hydor Koralia Nano.Tank health,and plant growth is definitely better with both going,after experimenting.


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

stu_ said:


> Personally I'd worry less about gassing off the tap water,and get more flow in there as suggested previously.



If Tom Barr says co2 fluctuations arent good  and melt plants then its a good idea to follow his advice. Also not all waters come out of the tap with the same ammount of co2. So some might get away with it while not others.


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## dfinn (23 Mar 2015)

Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies!

I have attached some pictures, to me it seems as though the plants have a film of black algae on but the leaves just look like they are dying.

I will make sure I get 50% water change weekly and have removed the reflectors. I will look into different ferts and the flow issue, was thinking of adding an external filter for this.

Reading that guide Jose posted is interesting as it suggests no/ very few water changes?

Apologies for the rubbish photos

Thanks,

Dan


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

The idea behind no water changes is to prevent co2 fluctuations from your tap water. As far as im concerned you can achieve the same by letting the water seat for a day at least.


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## Rahms (23 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> The idea behind no water changes is to prevent co2 fluctuations from your tap water. As far as im concerned you can achieve the same by letting the water seat for a day at least.



That guide recommends EI dosing alongside 0 water changes, it just doesn't sit right with me. It then credits an EI article but the link is broken so I couldn't read it. CO2 fluctuations are indeed bad, but I've only seen discussion around that topic referring to uneven injection rate (i.e. CO2 varying throughout the day, every day), rather than a few ppm increase once a week from a water change. Not sure the benefit of slightly more steady CO2 is worth the trade-off of no water changes. 

The tank looks like one I had at my old job.  Big tank, algae on everything (I think thats algae?!).  We just had to improve flow and it stopped getting worse, at which point we cleaned it properly and it didn't come back.


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

Here you go:
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/non-co2-methods/2936-non-co2-methods
EI doesnt mean anything really. Because in a low tech you dose 1/10th of ei for a high tech and people still call it ei. Dont get caught up on the names. 

You can do water changes with this methkd as well.


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## ian_m (23 Mar 2015)

Jose said:


> The idea behind no water changes is to prevent co2 fluctuations from your tap water


Or don't turn the lights on after water change. Simple. EI is supposed to be simple, no need to stand water, will gas CO2 off very quickly once in the tank. When I have accidentally gassed my fish, putting air pump on for a minute or two is enough to de-gas the CO2 a fish recover and return to normal.


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## Jose (23 Mar 2015)

I dont know why Tom Barr doesnt give all these options?


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## Sacha (24 Mar 2015)

Jose, do you have a Tom Barr shrine in your house?


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## Jose (24 Mar 2015)

Sacha said:


> Jose, do you have a Tom Barr shrine in your house?



Would be nice. Nah couldnt stand it hehe.

If you show me someone else who has experimented as much or has contributed as much to the hobby's science Ill be happy to go for that one as well.


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## stu_ (24 Mar 2015)

@Jose
my original comment about not gassing off, wasn't  a personal dig,and i admit i haven't read the Tom Barr link ( who's work i respect).
I've read a lot about bba caused by co2 fluctuations at water change time.In my setups,i just don't see it,i've tried it before lights, after lights,and during lights.Maybe i've been lucky.
These days i just hose pipe it straight in from the mixer tap,right temp + dechlor.None of my numerous Crypts melt because of it.
Back on topic,if the OP wants an opinion,FWIW.
Reflectors off, consider upping the liquid carbon (currently 3ml in a 180L ?)
More flow.
Water change more often and larger amounts.Say 50% a week.
Keep the tank clean.Get those organics out.If i let maintenance slide, that's when i start to see problems
How much/ often do you feed the fish?
That's what i'd do.


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## dfinn (24 Mar 2015)

Right I've now done the following changes:


Reflectors off
Added a little fluval 1 internal filter to the other end of the tank to the current filter to increase flow
Upped the Easycarbo to 5ml/ day
I will make sure I change 50% of water per week
Feeding wise I feed a pinch or two of flake food once daily and they scoff it down, very rarely any left over afterwards.

Does anything think that it could be my fish are nibbling at the plants?

I will have a look at the ferts options, do people recommend EI dry ferts then?

Dan


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## Rahms (24 Mar 2015)

They may be nibbling but thats not why everything is brown, so I'd worry about that later.  EI is great for your plants, don't think anyone will tell you otherwise here 

For the other internal filter, the fluval 1 seems to be for tanks up to 18 inches long.... Not sure its quite got the guts to do anything in your tank.  And either way, you want your filters pointing in the same direction, not opposite!


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## Jose (24 Mar 2015)

stu_ said:


> @Jose
> my original comment about not gassing off, wasn't a personal dig,and i admit i haven't read the Tom Barr link ( who's work i respect).
> I've read a lot about bba caused by co2 fluctuations at water change time.In my setups,i just don't see it,i've tried it before lights, after lights,and during lights.Maybe i've been lucky.
> These days i just hose pipe it straight in from the mixer tap,right temp + dechlor.None of my numerous Crypts melt because of it.
> ...



No worries stu, I didnt take it personally or anything. Tom Barr doesnt pay me for anything so...
I agree with all your recommendations Stu. Nothing I wouldnt do myself.


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## Jose (24 Mar 2015)

dfinn said:


> Does anything think that it could be my fish are nibbling at the plants?


I doubt it dfinn.

By the way, EI are generic ferts, its not a brand or anything like that, unlike Tropica...ADA and what not. I dont like any of that because that is more like a religion where you dont know what you are throwing into your tank (nothing personal once again). So yes this can definately be done with EI powders at around 1/10th the dose of "normal EI" for a high tech. No matter what kind of tank you have, if you buy dry salts for ferts they will always be useful, apart from being the cheapest as well.


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## dfinn (25 Mar 2015)

Hi,

Well already the algae is reducing, whether that is the change in things from my end or the sucking loach I had donated having a field day with the algae, we shall see....

Dan


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## RossMartin (25 Mar 2015)

Is even 5ml easy carbo enough?! I dose 3.2ml in an 80l tank. Which is the max amount for my tank. I'm sure you can add more!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dfinn (26 Mar 2015)

Hi,

Ok, on the bottle I think it's max 2ml per 50 litres so that's max 7ml ish for a 180 litre right? I'll keep it at 5 for now as that's double the previous amount and then up it again in a week or so just to give things time to adapt a bit?

Thanks,

Dan


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## dfinn (28 Mar 2015)

UPDATE:

Well the algae has definitely cleared up and I have new plant growth!

I was thinking of replacing the plants at the back (I think they are Echinodorus) on the left side as they don't seem tall enough to fill the space. Any suggestions as to good plants? Also the Fluvial 1 seems to be providing a good bit of surface agitation.




 



 



 



 

Dan


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## dfinn (29 Mar 2015)

EI Fert starter kit ordered, not sure it is much different to the APF complete stuff except for the dosing rates.

I am going to give the crypt things a few weeks to see if they perk up on the right side, if not I'll change them for something like Vallis or more swords, although heard mixed reports on them being ok with easycarbo?

Dan


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## candymancan (29 Mar 2015)

That algae grows from too much light from what I have seen..  I only get that red algae in my 30g tank and I have a Fluval ECCO light strip over it..  It has a few blue lights on it and I think either those blue lights are doing it.. (but probly not since I use the blue and purple Power compact actinic and a regular 6700 on my 44g pentagon and my 27g tank and I don't have that algae.

But the 30g tank is much much shorter and the light is on longer and I have that red crap that is impossible to scrap off my plants..  The same exact algae you have..  Its very frustrating and I wish I knew why exactly.. but as I said I think its because of the 6 blue leds the strip has and my tank is shorter then my taller tanks so the light is more intense and causes algae but I could be wrong..

So how did you manage to get the algae to go away... because my 30g as I said has the SAME algae you have...  I hate it.. the same red algae..  And I really think its from way to strong of a light.  I think this fluval ECCO LED strip I got is causing this red algae...  I never had it when I was using a Duel T5 NO light


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## stu_ (29 Mar 2015)

Hi
Glad things are picking up.Don't start slacking off now 
If it were me,I'd prune the affected leaves on the sword that's dead centre.
Easycarbo is ok with vallis IME as long as you don't dose >x2.


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## dfinn (29 Mar 2015)

I shall get pruning

Regarding the algae, it was either:

Reduced light
Increased CO2/ ferts
The sucking loach that was added incidentally who continually hoovers the tank! 
Dan


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## dfinn (2 Apr 2015)

EI kit arrived:





Water change and pruning time!

Dan


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