# Unknown problem with ember tetras. No one can identify it?



## JamieB

Hi all

Difficult one for you all here. I've been to my local aquarium shops and no one knows what the issue is with my Ember Tetras. Firstly here's a picture:





Now this Ember seems to be turning black from the inside. It's perfectly healthy and eats fine until about a week before it dies where it gets these spots all over it and then dies and turns completely white.

It then seems to infect 1 or 2 other fish and goes again.

Now this sounds parasitic right? But it's not breeding as I've only lost about 4/5 fish over the last 6 months to it. I can't remember if my Neon's get the issue too but it obviously is affecting my embers.

2 aquarium shops have no idea what it is and suggested dosing the following 2 things
eSha Exit
eSha 2000

I did these on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday last week and no help but I'm not sure how long these take to kick in.

The tank is an AquaOne AquaNano 40 with the standard filtration consiting of a large sponge block, ceramic noodles and Purigen, I left ALL of this in whilst dosing and didn't water change. Not sure if this is too little but I've had the tank for about 3 years now and these embers have been in about 10 months.

I have some aquarium salt to try but not sure what you guys think? I've also been advised to take out the sponge foam and the purigen and redose with the eSha 2000 and the salt after doing a 20% water change.

Any ideas firstly what it is and secondly if the above would be advisable?

Thanks all
Jamie


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## Crossocheilus

I'm pretty sure purigen would remove medication from the water, activated carbon certainly does. I'm afraid I can't i.d. the disease and I am not familiar with the eSha range. I would recommend you increase the number of water changes (when not medicating). I think salt is considered a bad idea with softwater fish like embers, it may only stress them more, allowing the infection to spread. 

Sorry I can't be of more help, good luck with your embers, they are beautiful fish.


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## GlassWalker

The two esha medications can be used together and between them they claim it hits a lot of things. However it is a scattergun approach and obviously not the same as finding out exactly what it is and treating it specifically, which is difficult if we can't find out what it is. I'm also not sure about leaving purigen in while medicating, and if you try again I would certainly take that out. The sponge, is it a normal one, or a carbon one (usually black)? Normal ones are fine to leave in. Carbon ones should be taken out, although if it has been there for a while it may be saturated anyway.

Personally I wouldn't use salt without having at least one symptom which is know treatable by it.

Apart from that, double check aquarium conditions are right for the fish so they have best chance to fight off any problems themselves.


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## JamieB

I did use them together but was thinking of just using the 2000 this time alone? The sponge is this one:
http://www.fishpetsreptiles.co.uk/products/detail.php?prodcat=1&prodtype=3&prodid=343

It's black but looks like a standard style one. I've never changed this after reading online that it's pointless to change? Same with the noodles.

Condition seem OK. PH is perhaps on the high scale for tetras  as it comes out of my taps in the high 7's. Ammonia is below 5ppm even just before the water change is due, nitrites also below 5ppm (if not 0)  Nitrates are a little high after testing this morning at around 80ppm but out of the tap is 20ppm and I am due a water change which I'll do today.


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## GlassWalker

Is this a new tank? That ammonia and nitrite shouldn't be there and is likely a major factor. Do a big water change as soon as you can (like 50%+), being careful to match temperatures. Trying medications is secondary to getting the water cleaned up!


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## JamieB

Well it was between 0-5ppm on both, I only have the API master kit to go off and the colours on the comparison sheet aren't the easiest to compare to and as I say I am due a water change so I'd expect marginally higher than 0 PPM I would have thought?


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## GlassWalker

In a mature tank ammonia and nitrites should be undetectable to any significant level as the filter and/or plants should process it into less harmful compounds.  Also, as hard as the API test kit is, you should be able to narrow down the ball park better than "below 5ppm". For the ammonia test, I'd say if you see yellow or slightly off yellow, call it zero. Only if you see definite green would I call it as having ammonia worth talking about. Likewise for the nitrite, a light blue colour is zero. Before you reach the 0.25 step it may go slightly darker blue, but once you're into the lavenders and purples, you know for sure you have some.

Have another go and see if you can decide if you have some ammonia and/or nitrite or not, then at what ball park level. A step either side isn't much, but we should at least know if there is or isn't any.


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## JamieB

Will be testing the water again tonight, did a 50% water change on Sunday and dosed with 2000 after removing the Purigen, no change in the fish and one did die on Monday which did NOT have the black spot, just seemed to be breathing fast and staying at the top of the water near the filter so guess he was also struggling with strength, died the next day, no visible problems with the fish to the naked eye. Will update with water parameters.

As an info the PH appears to be in the high 7's, around 7.8. Is this a cause for concern with Tetras?


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## tam

What are your tank parameters? I'd do a full test and see if anything is off. If you aren't sure on the results might be worth getting your local fish shop to test for you too.

I've high ph 7.8 ish but soft water, lowish TDs and they seem happy in that.


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## JamieB

I will test ammonia, nitrate and nitrite tonight and post results here, what else should I test? I can only test PH additionally to the other 3 with what I currently have but I can purchase further testing kits


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## Crossocheilus

Bare in mind that many medications reduce the dissolved oxygen levels so additional aeration is often needed. Sometimes these things just happen, probably some internal infection that spreads around, diagnosis is difficult and treatment often seem to be ineffective. Fish often show symptoms then die a day later so it is difficult to take immediate action.


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## tam

start with those as they are the biggest trouble makers. If you do have ammonia/nitrite it suggests there is something wrong in the tank as a mature filter should cope unless you are very overstocked.


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## JamieB

AqAdvisor says I'm not overstocked so hopefully can rule that out, I do have a couple fish that are perhaps too large for the tank but I got them when I wasn't in the know so much. it's 55L with 3 glowlight tetras (I started with more but not replacing due to them growing too large to keep a proper shoal) 4 Neon tetras (same as previous) and about 10 ember tetras.


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## alto

Without actual diagnostics it's very difficult to assign a likely culprit (do you have a local public aquarium or vet that has specialized in ornamental fishes - I believe there is a list somewhere on the PFK site for UK vets) - necropsy _might_ be helpful but even then there may be no definitive answer.

As your tests indicated measureable levels of ammonia & nitrite, also test your tap water (or whatever water mix you are using for water changes) & compare these readings to your tank water.

It's possible the ember tetra that died Monday did so in response to changing parametres after the 50% water change - when doing water changes larger than 25%, it's a good idea (ie conservative approach to fishkeeping)  to ensure that tank & change water are similar in parametres.
Note you can get a copy of local water analysis from your water board/supplier - in some urban areas, water may come from several sources & if there is a switch from reservoir A to reservoir B just before you do a large water change, this can be problematic ... most healthy fish will manage changes (depending on extent), any compromised fish (parasites, bacterial, already compromised gill function from previous ammonia burns etc) may struggle.

Just as there are always algae spores in a tank, there are also always disease "spores" - fish have a normal "flora" of various parasites, bacteria, viruses etc, when fish become stressed, their immune system becomes depressed & that balance of normal flora is upset ... by the time we observe significant change in fish behavior, the disease is generally well advanced.

In the absence of any sort of diagnosis, just providing clean water & limiting stress (dim light rather than high light, quiet calm movement about the tank re vibrations etc)  may be more beneficial than any medications (if you use medications find out the active ingredient & how it may affect water parametres (many sequester oxygen, many negatively impact filter bacteria) & fish (many "treatment" chemicals will trigger stress response in fish)).
Some medications claim to increase/improve slime coat in fishes ie the chemical actually irritates the fish which then increases slime coat production ... not sure this is really that great a benefit to a fish that is already struggling with a disease, especially one that is internal.
If you read "fish vet" studies on treating fish, daily water changes are always included in the treatment scheme, delve deeper & there will be studies on the activity of the treatment chemical under various pH, temp etc, efficacy of chemical against agents in fish _in vivo,_ rather than _in vitro_.
Further some of the commonly sold medications may impact bacteria etc in water but have zero impact on actual bacteria in fishes ...



> one did die on Monday which did NOT have the black spot, just seemed to be breathing fast and staying at the top of the water near the filter


this usually indicates that fish was struggling for oxygen

I'm not familiar with the medications that have been suggested, a quick website check
eSHa EXIT - data sheet is from 2007 but doesn't actually identify the chemical agent, it's also very cheerfully optimistic ... compare their description of "velvet" and possibly treating 4-5 days for "exceptionally resistant species" and the details provided in this article *Flagellates: Oodinium*  (I've read the cited articles & others, oodinium is not trivial to treat & success is often rather limited: the best "treatment" is maintaining fish under conditions where the disease is unlikely to occur in the first place; in contrast "Ich" responds very well to most treatments).

The Skeptical Aquarist is a site well worth your reading time 

FWIW "black spots" on fish may occur when the organic load in the tank is high - not just the nitrogens  which are commonly tested for, but dissolved organics from food waste, fish waste, plant waste, again 25% daily water changes are the treatment of choice. 

eSHa 2000 - again a very optimistic document from 2007 (if they have a product that effectively treats all those listed conditions, I want to buy the company), again no listed _active ingredients
_
Best of luck with whatever route you choose to follow


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## JamieB

Ok so I seem to have misplaced my test comparison chart but here's my tap water vs tank water

Left on both in tap water, right is tank water. 
Ammonia left, nitrite right.





The right most tube is a little red stained from leaving a sample in there but hopefully can still see it well enough. 

Nitrate
Tap water left right is tank water


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## tam

It does look like the tank water is giving a slightly darker colour than the tap for ammonia?


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## Jose

Thats probably normal. These test kits have interactios with diferent ions. Its normal to have a slight ammonia reading when you actually dont have any at all.


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## alto

I'd not be concerned about your tank vs tap parametres based on those test kit results - if your local shop will run samples, you might have them double check (as a measure of your test kits).
Fish load also seems just fine, you might sit & watch the tank (being as still as you can) & try & see if the other fish are subtly harassing the embers (once properly chastened, it doesn't take much for the dominant fishes to send the subordinates wherever) - certainly the glowlights & neons can be relatively boisterous.

API has a video series which includes the nitrogens, there will be a color test onscreen so you can reassure yourself of the results.


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## JamieB

Odd one isn't it.. The fish are from what I would say is a very well maintained and reputable aquarium shop so I am confident they were OK when I got them. I was thinking to setup my old Fluval Chi as a quarantine tank and put the one black fish into it but I am concerned it being alone would only stress it out...


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## PARAGUAY

There is no room for acceptable ? ammonia and nitrite levels . Concentrate on the Nitrite ensure the test tubes are clean from previous residue, for all purposes now your tank is the quarantine tank so I would treat them there.Find the nearest reputable next Aquarium shop,have them double check your results.All media like Purigen,Carbon will take out medication. My opinion of Esha products they are good same for the API test kit.


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## Jose

Test kits are not reliable. Just keep up with water changes, oxygenation and whatever medication you want to give them. I would quarantine the fish. If you cant then Id put it down for the sake of the rest if you cant find a cure.


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## JamieB

So you'd recommend putting an air line in? I don't have one of these at all at the moment and I do get a bio film on top of the water but I remove it quite regular, would getting an air pump be a good idea?


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## alto

JamieB said:


> Odd one isn't it.. The fish are from what I would say is a very well maintained and reputable aquarium shop so I am confident they were OK when I got them. I was thinking to setup my old Fluval Chi as a quarantine tank and put the one black fish into it but I am concerned it being alone would only stress it out...



This would just be extremely stressful to the lone fish - new tank surroundings, no mates, changing water parametres re the tank is not cycled (you can do 25% water changes every 12 hours to limit ammonia/nitrite but this is still not as efficient as a cycled filter).

You might check with the shop whether these fish were wild caught or farmed, sometimes wc can have some odd latent parasites/viruses but this is rare & treatment is generally just supportive care: excellent water conditions, non stressful tankmates, suitable foods, suitable aquarium size/décor re the fish's immune system is best suited to deal with whatever.

Whenever you start with medications, it's recommended to optimize oxygenation of the water, anything that ripples the surface or "splashes" will do this (whether an airstone or pump return), removing/breaking up surface film will help with air exchange, lower water temperature means more dissolved gases ... 
- the frequent water changes should improve (reduce) the surface film
- I don't think there's anything you can do with the intank filter to ripple the water surface (or "splash" - gently as most fish will find rigorous "splashing" stressful)
- look at adding the chi filter to help with surface movement (no idea how practical this is as I've never looked at the system)

Something I'd missed in your earlier posts was consideration of removing the sponge or ceramic noodles - definitely don't do this! 
both will contain filter bacteria (good) + debris (not so good)
The bacteria associated with debris tend not to be the sort that are efficient N-cycle bacteria, they are however usually fast growing, opportunists so it's "good" to limit these while encouraging/supporting growth of the much slower paced N-cycle bacteria ie gently rinse to remove debris, always use tank water or dechlorinated, similar parameter tap.

If you weren't already treating the tank with unknown chemicals (the eSHa products), I'd suggest gently rinsing the sponge to remove debris - though perhaps you do this already as part of your tank maintenance? - as this would likely help reduce that surface scum BUT at this stage, just use the daily water changes to do this.
Don't rinse the sponge or ceramic noodles for 7-14 days after the last treatment, obviously the 14 day is more conservative ... again you should continue with the frequent 25% water changes during this period following the last application of eSha chemicals.     

The "black" sponge may just be that, dark material, other times it's an indication of small amounts of carbon/charcoal integrated into the sponge - after a couple months life in a tank, this amount of charcoal is usually "exhausted" & it will merely act as another surface for your "sticky" N-cycle bacteria, ie I'd not be concerned about removing the sponge at this time in terms of any charcoal it may contain (you mentioned your sponge is well aged) BUT I would be concerned re the N-cycle bacteria population (that would leave along with the sponge).

Once you get the tank back to normal (re no more medications & usual water change regime), then you can sort out a schedule for rinsing the sponge & filter to remove debris - never rinse the sponge & ceramic noodles at the same time. The sponge should be collecting/trapping the majority of the debris so you may want to *gently* rinse this weekly or monthly depending.
The ceramic noodles should never need to be rinsed more than a few times a year & always wait a couple weeks after the sponge disturbance.

In a suitably stocked & maintained tank, gentle rinsing of the filter media should not noticeably upset the N-cycle but it does open the door to mistakes, so this is often not suggested by shops/suppliers etc.

I'm going on about all this maintenance to remove debris as I'm assuming the surface scum & lost fish reflect higher levels of dissolved organics in the water column.
If you do a sponge rinse & there is very little "murk", there really is no debris etc  concern (& my assumptions are completely invalid).

Lowered water temperature to increase dissolved oxygen: look at the recommended temperature range for your fish before embarking on this path.
Seriously Fish:
embers 20 - 28C
glowlights 24 - 28C
neons 21 - 28C

So if your tank is running at the upper range, you might slowly lower temp to 23 - 24C (adjust heater down 1C every couple of days ... again this is the conservative approach re tank is in a state of some confusion)

(you mentioned that you had more of the glowlights & neons, but have lost fish numbers of both - give some thought to this)  

Patience is key when sorting out tank/fish issues, don't jump from one treatment to the next - especially when you have no idea what the chemicals are - even using carbon/charcoal to (possibly) remove chemicals between treatments, fish may remain stressed by a previous treatment for days to weeks even after the chemical has been removed from the water column. 
Another note about carbon/charcoal removal of chemicals, it's usually a process of 12 - 24 hours not a couple hours, & even then, depending on the chemical & other dissolved compounds in your water column, the process may be incomplete (carbon/charcoal "activation" & pore size are contributing factors to this process, most carbon/charcoal sold into the pet trade is low grade/efficiency).

Fortunately fish are very good at managing despite us


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## JamieB

This is all very very good information and I thank you all enormously for it, I think I need to rethink what I do with my tank maintenance as I fear I am overdoing it in regards of the sponge and noodles, I "rinse" both in a bucket that has the old tank water in once a month when doing my weekly water change. I think I'll write up my whole process and allow you guys to critique it so I can offer my fish the best home I can. The sponge does get a lot of debris on it and I generally squeeze it out and rub my hand over the top of it when I do the once a month jobby so I that sounds too aggressive. I'll write it up shortly if you don't mind...


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## JamieB

So my process is this.

Weekly I clean my tank by going around it with either a metal scraper or magnetic cleaner to remove any algae etc from inside the glass. I then turn off the pump and start draining water with a gravel vac, generally I do disturb the gravel but not sure if this is a good idea or bad as it does have a lot of muck inside it but I've heard with a planted tank this is not a great idea..

I drain about 20% and then throw that water away. I use the same bucket to fill up with the same water making sure to get the water as close to the tank waters temperature as possible. I then add Fluval Aqua Plus to dechlorinate the water whilst still in the bucket (I add around 5ml as this seemed to be about right for 10 litres of water) and the same amount of Fluval Cycle and slowly add this to the tank.

Once a month I've been removing the sponge and squeezing it whilst submerged in the bucket and removing all the debris then placing it back into the tank and also dunking the bag with the noodles in into the same water and putting it back. 

I then dose with Tropica's standard ferts but will be grabbing some EI when this runs out. My tank isn't heavily planted and the substrate is pure gravel with just vallis and anubias on bogwood so very simple plants.

I was contemplating switching to Seachem prime once my Aqua Plus runs out but not sure which is better.


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## GlassWalker

Just catching up from some time away. From the photos of the test results, there doesn't appear to be any major problem there. Again, look for a definite green tint to show ammonia detection, and going away from a pure cyan for signs of nitrite.

Dechlorinators are much of a muchness other than their concentration and value. Seachem Prime is one of the more concentrated ones so does last a long time. Consider getting some 1ml syringes to help dose it if you don't have some already, they're cheap on ebay.


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## alto

Your rinsing of the sponge & noodles is likely just fine, again to be conservative, you might rinse them on alternate cycles - if there's significant debris building on the sponge, rinse this more frequently - this will also mean that it takes less vigorous cleaning action ... if I'm recalling my N-cycle bacteria growth charts correctly, "optimum" pH range is ~ 6.5 - 7.5, beyond either limit, the bacteria grow more slowly, metabolize more slowly ... and the same level of ammonia is more "toxic" at alkaline than acidic pH, so these are considerations for your tank than may differ slightly from literature.
(I completely do not recall if there were any hard water studies done, the "growth" studies were done in moderately soft water - again I don't recall the actual values but it was convention "standard", rather like room temp of 22C    ) 

Gravel with larger spaces does mean that you may end up with more debris settling in, thus increased dissolved organics (DOC) in the water column even in the absence of increased nitrate levels (which are often used as a measure of how effective the water change routine is at controlling buildup).
In a heavily planted tank, some of these nitrates may be used by plants (they preferentially use ammonia & nitrite), so in most aquaria, it's water change that reduces the levels of nitrates & DOCs.
In a lightly planted tank, I'd not rely on plants to utilize the majority of the debris that settles in the gravel - again with a more sand texture, debris will sit atop the substrate & is readily removed with the vac.

You might (notice the might!) embark on a gravel cleaning regime - every 3-5 days, really vac out the debris from a small section (up to 1/3 of the surface area) during your daily water change; in areas where the plants have really rooted, leave the debris. Do this while you're engaging in this present cycle of tank "cleanup", once you feel everything is back on even keel, just vac as needed.

When you're doing things that may negatively impact N-cycle bacteria in the tank (these sticky bacteria are on most surfaces with very few in the water column), space out the actions. 

Whenever you do extra tank maintenance, it's prudent to increase water changes ie 25% daily or every other day etc rather than weekly, this will even out any possible ammonia etc spikes, after 1-2 weeks you can go back to your regular maintenance.

I've not used the Fluval Aquaplus, I use Prime not only as it's cheap!  but it's also very effective - unfortunately previous tech sheets/data are no longer available on the Seachem website (they do have a forum with loads of product info hidden here & there, you can also post your own questions) but Prime is more than just _Sodium thiosulfate._
(this is already too lengthy so I'll just stop with that statement )

If you're comfortable & have a good routine with 20% water change, just do that rather than my "25%"

Use Cycle if you like, it's not particularly effective or harmful, some studies from way back indicated that even though it lacked the type of N-cycle bacteria that are actually isolated from aquaria, adding it to the tank water lessened the time needed to establish "X" level of N-cycle bacteria sooooo truth in advertising   

Re switching off of Tropica to EI, I'd not bother with a lightly planted small tank ... but I'm lazy! and if you've got a nicely balanced tank with minimal algae on established anubias  ...


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## Henry

Chuck some hornwort in. 99.9% of fish disease is caused by water quality, which will be sorted out very quickly by a macrophytic plant like the above.

Nitrate test etc. are generally crap, so it's always best to assume there's something else to be done to improve water quality.


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## JamieB

For now then I'll just continue with my normal routine and do 25% weekly water changes after completing a full week of daily 25% changes. I'll remember to not clean both filter medias at the same time as well.


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