# Lily pipes - how do they work?



## foxfish

I was thinking about making up some acrylic pipework but first of all I need to understand the benefits of lily pipes.
I have read several times on this forum that the lily pipes produce some sort of vortex - how does this work?


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## Antipofish

foxfish said:
			
		

> I was thinking about making up some acrylic pipework but first of all I need to understand the benefits of lily pipes.
> I have read several times on this forum that the lily pipes produce some sort of vortex - how does this work?



I can't explain the fluid dynamics behind this but it definitely works.  Google "youtube lily pipe" or "youtube lily pipe vortex" and you will see some examples. It must be something to do with the circular nature of the "funnel" that creates a virtual vacuum due to the velocity of the water leaving it.  This in turn seems to drag surface water with it by means of a mini tornado almost.  Its quite interesting to see in operation.  Sorry I can't say any more...I will be interested to see future replies..


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## ceg4048

Err...yeah, they create a £40 vortex that sucks the money right out of your wallet.  
The Matrix isn't real foxfish!

Cheers,


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## Antipofish

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Err...yeah, they create a £40 vortex that sucks the money right out of your wallet.
> The Matrix isn't real foxfish!
> 
> Cheers,



Lol Clive, you been buying cheap stuff again !!!  £40 ?  Not talking ADA stuff then, haha.  I take it you are not a fan ?  I am crestfallen to hear about the Matrix though   Next thing, you will be telling us all the Easter Bunny is just someone done up in fancy dress !!!


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## ghostsword

The glassware is very pretty, but get's dirty quickly. I have a eheim easy set (grey) and does the job perfectly.  If I want a vortex I can use a koralia a couple of cm's under the water. 

After all there isn't a vortex in nature.

The acrylic pipes are a good idea, clear and resistent.


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## sussex_cichlids

ghostsword said:
			
		

> The glassware is very pretty, but get's dirty quickly. I have a eheim easy set (grey) and does the job perfectly.  If I want a vortex I can use a koralia a couple of cm's under the water.
> 
> After all there isn't a vortex in nature.
> 
> The acrylic pipes are a good idea, clear and resistent.



In sure the shape of the Lille pipe will effect the flow and create a vortex because of the shape of the outlet it doesn't create a vortex as such but it dose induces  two pressures zones  an area of low presure and high pressure on the flow of water as it released from the mouth of the pipe the area of low pressure will allow the high presure to pass round it in turn creating the vortex 






Similar to how a tornado is born 

It forms when a high hot humid air meets driving north meets cold dry air moving south when the too meet they create a vortex due to the diffrences in pressure and humidaty

I know there big diffrance before anyone says im wrong look at the shape of the outlet then take in to count some basic physics and think about the flow and how it affected by the water around it

I maybe proven wrong tho


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## Antipofish

ghostsword said:
			
		

> The glassware is very pretty, but get's dirty quickly. I have a eheim easy set (grey) and does the job perfectly.  If I want a vortex I can use a koralia a couple of cm's under the water.
> 
> After all there isn't a vortex in nature.
> 
> The acrylic pipes are a good idea, clear and resistent.
> 
> 
> ___________________________



To be fair Luis, there isn't a "closed system" in nature either though, to concentrate and hold in anything that creates  scum or biofilm such as some people get in their aquaria.  The volumes of natural water columns, in general, is massive. 

In defence of the lily pipe, ANY pipe system on our tanks gets dirty, its just that the clear glass shows it a lot more.  But that is the price we pay for vanity, and ours is a very vain hobby on the whole (in a good way, since we all strive for that 'perfect scape' 

I too like the idea of acrylic lily pipes.  I am surprised they are not yet mass marketed.


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## ghostsword

But who says that there isn't scum or biofilm in nature? I've seen it many times in rivers and affluents, you see it when there is an imbalance on the water quality. 

I don't think that it is economically viable to get lilly pipes to get it fixed, or the vuppa. I like the look of the lilly pipes an would buy them for that reason alone, not for water pressures, biofilm on top or such things.

I remember in the 80's I had a 200l tank with angels and guppies, cory's and vallis and echinodorus. It had a swimmer and a treasure chest with bubbles. The filter was an air powered hang on an it also had a undergravel filter. I was 11 but do not remember seeing any biofilm and scum on the top. 

Was I lucky? Maybe, but then I've been lucky for almost 30 years.  and no, it's not because I knew what to do, because until I joined UKAPS I did not know what was ferts or co2 for tanks. 

Lilly pipes are very pretty, look good and clean, will get some for that reason alone, but I am not sold on their miraculous habilities.


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## ceg4048

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In sure the shape of the Lille pipe will effect the flow and create a vortex because of the shape of the outlet it doesn't create a vortex as such but it dose induces  two pressures zones  an area of low presure and high pressure on the flow of water as it released from the mouth of the pipe the area of low pressure will allow the high presure to pass round it in turn creating the vortex
Click to expand...

Fluids in motion have a lower pressure than fluids at rest. So the water exiting the mouth of the funnel lowers the pressure just below the water's surface and therefore induces motion from the surface. This is nothing special and this vortex concept is brandished about by marketing departments as if it were something revolutionary. the same ting happens when you pull the plug in you sink or bathtub or when you flush your toilet. The water flowing down the drain lowers the pressure in the surrounding water column and gets the column of water moving. We see this every day and we think nothing of it. Why all of a sudden is this such an amazing phenomenon? If you drive an estate car the airflow falling off the back of the car lowers the pressure near the rear windscreen which results in sucking up dirt and debris. You can see vortices form in a stream as the water flows around rocks and other obstacles. When you are on an airplane waiting to take off, your pilot has to wait a while if a larger airplane has just taken off because the vortices coming off the wing tips at takeoff or landing speeds are strong enough to buffet your plane and cause control problems, so the pilot waits a prescribed amount of time for the vortices to dissipate and then he/she can execute the takeoff roll. Vortices are a common occurrence in nature wherever there is a fluid in motion. This is not a big deal and you should not have to pay big bucks for something that happens for free. If you like looking at vortices, then go and flush your toilet bowl more often. It has the same shape as a lily pipe. The flow is just in the opposite direction.

In actual fact, this vortex issue irrelevant because it does nothing to help distribute flow in the locations that you want, down at the substrate level. You just get a localizes disturbance at the surface. This does not equate to, or produce a giant vortex of the entire water column. That's only an illusion that the marketing department wants you to think. As a matter of fact the open conical shape actually slows the flow as it exits the constant pipe section. So if these devices have an advantage, it might be that they can make the exit flow less violent or less turbulent, but this has no advantage in terms of the large scale shape of the water column movement.

Cheers,


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## George Farmer

I've had experience of pretty much every style of lily pipe available and they do perform very differently.  

Some will agitate the surface whilst providing minimal water column circulation.  Others do the opposite, and there's in-between. It's very apparent by looking at the outlet design to see how it will work on this balance between surface vs. water column movement.

*Example of surface-bias*





*Example of water column-bias *





*Example of in-between*



The biggest advantage of lily pipes for me is their aesthetics. I like to have no background on the aquarium in some of my aquascapes, as this provides opportunity for backlighting etc.  In this situation glassware is necessary to prevent an ugly distraction on the aquascape, unless your aquascape itself can hide ugly pipework etc.  

I'm not sure about the long-term aesthetics on acrylic lily pipes. Acrylic scratches very easily compared with glass and I suspect every time you cleaned the acrylic with a typical hose brush, it would become scratched quite easily and look unsightly.  I'm very happy to be proven wrong though because I've broken more glass lily pipes than I care to admit to!


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## Morgan Freeman

The only reason I'd buy them is because they look nice.

My current tank has no algae or surface scum and it doesn't even have a filter.


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## Radik

but they really work for the flow.. making nice whirl and pushing water down to substrate.


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## Antipofish

Morgan Freeman said:
			
		

> The only reason I'd buy them is because they look nice.
> 
> My current tank has no algae or surface scum and it doesn't even have a filter.



Is it empty ? LOL.  Lucky you   Do you have fish in there ? I am always interested in the success some people have with filter less tanks.  Good on ya


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## greenink

George Farmer said:
			
		

> not sure about the long-term aesthetics on acrylic lily pipes. Acrylic scratches very easily compared with glass and I suspect every time you cleaned the acrylic with a typical hose brush, it would become scratched quite easily and look unsightly.  I'm very happy to be proven wrong though because I've broken more glass lily pipes than I care to admit to!



The pipe cleaning brush doesn't affect the ones I made in either tank. And if they do get worn, they're only 50p a go... Though getting a perfect Lilly is a bit of an art. If its just the aesthetics then clear pipes are really easy to do, and you can have it pointing at the exact angle that works for your tank. Custom made at home all the way (how to guide in my journal). 

I like that you can make a deeper inlet too - so sucks closer to the bottom of the tank to get crud off tthe substrate better and allows you to more than 50% water change using the pump.... But that's just me.


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## ghostsword

Yep, I am also thinking about making a clear acrylic pipe, outlet pointing down. 

Ceg has me quoting defending the vortex, but no, not me. Clear pipes only for looks. 


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## Antipofish

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Yep, I am also thinking about making a clear acrylic pipe, outlet pointing down.
> 
> Ceg has me quoting defending the vortex, but no, not me. Clear pipes only for looks.
> 
> 
> ___________________________



Only for looks ? Does that mean you don't perceive breaking up surface scum as a benefit ?


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## ghostsword

Antipofish said:
			
		

> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, I am also thinking about making a clear acrylic pipe, outlet pointing down.
> 
> Ceg has me quoting defending the vortex, but no, not me. Clear pipes only for looks.
> 
> 
> ___________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only for looks ? Does that mean you don't perceive breaking up surface scum as a benefit ?
Click to expand...



Ive never had surface scum, so yep, just for looks. 


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## Antipofish

ghostsword said:
			
		

> Antipofish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ghostsword said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, I am also thinking about making a clear acrylic pipe, outlet pointing down.
> 
> Ceg has me quoting defending the vortex, but no, not me. Clear pipes only for looks.
> 
> 
> ___________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only for looks ? Does that mean you don't perceive breaking up surface scum as a benefit ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ive never had surface scum, so yep, just for looks.
> 
> 
> ___________________________
Click to expand...


LOL, think the wider picture Luis.. IF you had a surface film ??? Would you still think the lily pipe just looked pretty or would you welcome the added advantage of it dispersing the film


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## Morgan Freeman

Antipofish said:
			
		

> Morgan Freeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only reason I'd buy them is because they look nice.
> 
> My current tank has no algae or surface scum and it doesn't even have a filter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it empty ? LOL.  Lucky you   Do you have fish in there ? I am always interested in the success some people have with filter less tanks.  Good on ya
Click to expand...


Ten flame tetras.

I'm surprised how well it's going! It's remarkably easy running an "El Natural" tank. I think everyone should try it.


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## ghostsword

Antipofish said:
			
		

> LOL, think the wider picture Luis.. IF you had a surface film ??? Would you still think the lily pipe just looked pretty or would you welcome the added advantage of it dispersing the film



 if I had surface film I would do my best to find the cause for it. If your house is smelling what do you think is better? Spray febreeze it or find the cause of the smell and clean it up?

I don't know why I don't have surface scum, not even on the small tanks I have with no filters and just moss. They are 500ml and get one 100% water change every two days. No ferts, no co2 just plain tap water. No algae and no scum. Both on a windowsill. 

I've read on the forum that scum and biofilm are lipids and organics released by the plants, so maybe enough water changes does the trick? 

Only thing I've used as a shortcut was easy carbo on my mother's tank. Was so full of hair algae that it would have been a pain to remove it. Took the fish out and dropped 250ml on a 35l tank. All algae turned to brown mush in a day, but the java ferns were left spotless. Two 100% water changes in one week were enough to clear the tank. Shortcuts do have their place but only if we know the way to get things right as well. 

I like pipes, seen them enough, they are pieces of art.  but I'll buy them for that reason alone, not for the vortex, scum removal, etc.


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## sussex_cichlids

I was thinking about acrylic lily pipes like Gorge said above glass is easy to break really putting me of buying another set 
lost count the amount of glass stuff Ive broken already and really looking to get acrylic set. So this got me thinking about the acrylic lily pipes anyone know were to by them in the UK or Other 

Id rather buy a set then make a mess trying to make my own


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## Antipofish

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> I was thinking about acrylic lily pipes like Gorge said above glass is easy to break really putting me of buying another set
> lost count the amount of glass stuff Ive broken already and really looking to get acrylic set. So this got me thinking about the acrylic lily pipes anyone know were to by them in the UK or Other
> 
> Id rather buy a set then make a mess trying to make my own


'
Pete i am not sure you can buy them mate. But then a google search has just proved me wrong.  Having said that these ones look a bit manky.
http://theshrimplab.com/store/?p=724


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## foxfish

20mm pipe is a lot more tricky to bend than 16mm but looks a lot better on a big tank in my opinion, so I have been experimenting with acrylic champagne flutes, 20mm acrylic pipe, an oven, pipe benders, home made jigs, superglue, hot air blowers, hole saws, a lathe, a bath & a three speed pump...not much luck to be honest


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## sussex_cichlids

Hi Chris

yea found these this morning and email the shop in the USA for a list of sizes and to and see if he ships to UK probably wont get answer till mon afternoon 

Hope i can get a list from him and i will post it on the forum for other members to get there from him if he ships to the UK 
would mean few weeks for shipping but  seam to be the only place in the world selling them 

Ive tried loads google searchs ebay just no results for acrily  lilly pipes for sale apart from the one you found 

Thanks For looking tho i will let you know when i get a reply from USA


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## Antipofish

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> Hi firefox
> yea found these this morning and email the shop in the USA for a list of sizes and to and see if he ships to UK probably wont get answer till mon afternoon
> 
> Hope i can get a list from him and i will post it on the forum for other members to get there from him if he ships to the UK
> would mean few weeks for shipping but  seam to be the only place in the world selling them
> 
> Ive tried loads google searchs ebay just no results for acrily  lilly pipes for sale apart from the one you found
> 
> Thanks For looking tho i will let you know when i get a reply from USA



Who the hell is firefox, and were you referring to the link that I posted ? LOL.


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## sussex_cichlids

yea been a long day im falling asleep infront of my computer just about keep one eye open typing getting bit sloppy sorry about that 

Have you had any news from Shane yet


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## Antipofish

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> yea been a long day im falling asleep infront of my computer just about keep one eye open typing getting bit sloppy sorry about that
> 
> Have you had any news from Shane yet



Hi mate, no I have not had the chance to email him yet as I have been flat tack.  Hoping to get in contact tomorrow


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## pepedopolous

http://tinyurl.com/7ht8zcy

This is a google translation of a German site (aquasabi.de)

I'm afraid of breaking glass too. I don't think I would buy them just cause they would be too big for my 40cm cube. However, maybe they would be suitable for you?


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## sussex_cichlids

Hi  pepedopolous
Thanks but for 80 euros think they can keep that its almost as expensive as a nice glass set but thanks there must be few more places


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## greenink

they really are very easy to make. if i can do it...


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## sussex_cichlids

mikeappleby said:
			
		

> they really are very easy to make. if i can do it...



Do you make them Mike?

You got any pictures of some you made? 

How much would you charge for a set?

If there nice and you don't mind forging me a set id be happy to pay you to make me a set!! 

Let me know Thanks Pete


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## Antipofish

sussex_cichlids said:
			
		

> mikeappleby said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they really are very easy to make. if i can do it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you make them Mike?
> 
> You got any pictures of some you made?
> 
> How much would you charge for a set?
> 
> If there nice and you don't mind forging me a set id be happy to pay you to make me a set!!
> 
> Let me know Thanks Pete
Click to expand...


+1


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## greenink

Pictures and how to guide in 259 journal. I'll stick to the day job though, so no making them for other people, sorry!


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## Antipofish

mikeappleby said:
			
		

> Pictures and how to guide in 259 journal. I'll stick to the day job though, so no making them for other people, sorry!



You could be the Bill Gates of the Aquatic world though Mike, lol.  Will have to revisit that how to thread.


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## Iain Sutherland

Me and somethingfishy are making them... been talking about it for ages as a garden shed hobby.  Just need to perfect them and then will post up for sale... also acrylic spray bars made to measure


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## sussex_cichlids

Hi Easerthegeezer
Keep us posted ill buy a set


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## foxfish

16mm pipe is really easy to bend, its the 20mm that is difficult, making the lily is a bit unpredictable but I have used a cut down acrylic champagne flute glued to the 20mm pipe, probably took me 8 hours over a few days & numerouse attempts


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## Iain Sutherland

foxfish said:
			
		

> 16mm pipe is really easy to bend, its the 20mm that is difficult, making the lily is a bit unpredictable but I have used a cut down acrylic champagne flute glued to the 20mm pipe, probably took me 8 hours over a few days & numerouse attempts



  we sit in his shed tinkering with fish things anyway so might as well try this.. we are both pretty handy.  He's an electrician so resisting the urge to try Cree LED light unit next


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## George Farmer

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Me and somethingfishy are making them... been talking about it for ages as a garden shed hobby.  Just need to perfect them and then will post up for sale... also acrylic spray bars made to measure


Sounds promising. I'd be happy to see these go for sale on the UKAPS trading forum.


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## Iain Sutherland

George Farmer said:
			
		

> easerthegeezer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me and somethingfishy are making them... been talking about it for ages as a garden shed hobby.  Just need to perfect them and then will post up for sale... also acrylic spray bars made to measure
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds promising. I'd be happy to see these go for sale on the UKAPS trading forum.
Click to expand...


Cheers George, no promises though, might be replaced with pictures of burnt fingers and smashed up acrylic tube!
Maybe have some ready next week if i find some time play after planting the new tank on wednesday


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## Antipofish

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> foxfish said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16mm pipe is really easy to bend, its the 20mm that is difficult, making the lily is a bit unpredictable but I have used a cut down acrylic champagne flute glued to the 20mm pipe, probably took me 8 hours over a few days & numerouse attempts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we sit in his shed tinkering with fish things anyway so might as well try this.. we are both pretty handy.  He's an electrician so resisting the urge to try Cree LED light unit next
Click to expand...


I wouldn't mind chatting to the both of you as well.  Im in the process of becoming qualified (just got my part p to go) as well as also training as a gas engineer.  So I can solder as well as do wiring LOL.  I watched an interesting bunch of videos on youtube.  You or somethingfishy might find this interesting...

*LINK TO LED TUTORIAL*

And the rest of the series of 6 tutorials you can get from that one


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## Iain Sutherland

Thanks for the link Chris, ill have a look through when i have some time.  I have done a fair bit of research into LED's via reef forums as DIY LED's are more popular there.  Its just an idea at the moment... not sure if i should nurture it or euthanase it for the sake of my wallet.

Im no sparky mate, im a hotel manager that gets bored and tinkers.. but somethingfishy would be more than happy to chat im sure.


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## Antipofish

easerthegeezer said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link Chris, ill have a look through when i have some time.  I have done a fair bit of research into LED's via reef forums as DIY LED's are more popular there.  Its just an idea at the moment... not sure if i should nurture it or euthanase it for the sake of my wallet.
> 
> Im no sparky mate, im a hotel manager that gets bored and tinkers.. but somethingfishy would be more than happy to chat im sure.



You are welcome   I think you might be right about the wallet thing !  I was kind of staggered at the price of some of the DIY kit.  I thought it would be WAY cheaper doing it yourself, but it looks like it could work out more than buying.  Still an interesting project


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## sussex_cichlids

Just been speaking to dads mate found out hes a glass blower so ive give him a few picture of lilly pipes and drop checkers fingers crossed hes going to start blowing lilly pipes to order and even blow custom designed pipes if you have a design he will have ago at blowing it so watch this space soon for custom lilly pipes and glassware to order.

Going to see how mine come out first ill post some picture as soon as i get them.


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## ghostsword

For sure looking forward to the results. 


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## m_attt

sounds good


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