# CO2 Disaster



## alkm (4 Jun 2016)

Here we go.

After preparing all week to start an EI dosing system and really looking forward to spending the weekend setting up and trying to record the experience in the journal section, I came home from work yesterday to a camplete disaster.  All the fish and amano shrimp in my tank were dead.  I feel absolutely gutted, I had a vibrant community of fish and shrimp and now the tank is lifeless.  I don't know what I'm going ot do next, I love the hobby but there's no way I'm setting up a CO2 system until I undersstand what went wrong and how this can be avoided.

I feel ashamed for what's happend, as I was responsible for the life in the tank, but I want to share the experience and ask for your help and advice on the likely cause of the CO2 overdose.

I'm using a 2 kg fire extinguisher attached to a dual stage regulator with a solenoid and needle valve (see picture below).  I had the second stage set at just below 4 bar.



 
When I got home yesterday the FE was empty. I'd bene expecting it to run out as it's been in daily use for several months.  This is the second FE I've used in the tank and I noticed when the last one ran out as the drop checker solution did not change to lime green on the day the CO2 stopped.  The only change I've made to the system since the last bottle emptied is the CO2 diffuser.  I've changed from an inline atomiser to inline reactor.  My initial thoughts on possible cause are as follows:

The pressure in the second stage was at 4 bar and too high for the reactor I was using.  I'd set it high when using the inline atomiser but did not adjust it when I switched to the reactor.
The regulator and/or needle valve iis faulty - It seems to be working ok on a new FE.
Increase in working pressure as the liquid CO2 all used in FE that has resulted in a 'dump' of the remaining CO2 into the tank - However I was under the impression that this was not a problem with dual stage regulators
Any help or advice woul dbe greatly appreciated.  I want to understand what has gone wrong so I can feel comfortable carrying on with the hobby.

Thanks


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## alto (4 Jun 2016)

commiserations on the fish losses 

Are you certain it's an actual dual stage regulator & not just dual gauge?

In general one should be able to observe a drop in cylinder pressure before the "end", maybe keep track on this new cylinder & look for the pattern.


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## alkm (4 Jun 2016)

Thanks Alto.

This is the kit/url] I bought from CO2art so I'm pretty certain it's dual stage.  I was checking the cylinder pressure regularly and did not notice a drop.


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## zozo (4 Jun 2016)

Sorry for your loss.. .. Cause is most likely a empty tank co2 dump.. Tho the regulator states to be dual stage to prevent this, it still can be defective.. You should actual put your co2 bottle on a weight scale, first an empty one to know how much its weight is, then check it's weight to know when you're about to be empty, when this time arives it's best not to leave the setup unmonitored for a while. Rather switch the tank when you see it's about empty, as you experienced spoiling a day or 2 worth of co2 is cheaper and much less unpleasant than losing all your livestock.

A less cheaper prevention is the use of a PH controler which shuts off the solenoid. I know there probably will follow some replies with very negative views and opinions about PH controlers.. Which i yet didn't experience after using one for over a year. So i can not share nor disagree whit these negative additude towards PH controlers.. I only experienced bennefits till now, but this is also because i bought it extremely cheap to begin with. A pitty, new from the lfs are way to expensive for the service they provide, but certainly prevent an end of tank dump and or irregular bubble counts.


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## alkm (4 Jun 2016)

Thanks zozo.  I like your idea of using a weight scale and I think I'll definitely use one if I set up again and I'll check out the pH controllers.  As you rightly said it does not matter if you lose some CO2, I'd much rather that than dead fish.


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## EnderUK (4 Jun 2016)

You say you've been using the cylinder for several months but only just started EI dosage? You've changed to an in-line diffuser which will increase your dissolved CO2. Do you have a bubble counter? This isn't a way of meassuring dissolved co2 just the rate you're injecting into tank. Any time you touch the filter co2 system you should make sure you haven't knocked the valve. Even a slight twist of the valve can increase the CO2 dramatically.

Another rules is never mess with the CO2 unless you're in the house for several hours to monitor the tank.

I've never experienced a CO2 dump with my single stage regulator for CO2art.


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## alkm (5 Jun 2016)

Hi EnderUK and thanks for your reply.



EnderUK said:


> You say you've been using the cylinder for several months but only just started EI dosage?



Yes I've been using the cylinder for a few months.  I hadn't started EI dosing was going to start that this weekend.



EnderUK said:


> You've changed to an in-line diffuser which will increase your dissolved CO2. Do you have a bubble counter?



When I changed to the inline reactor I monitored the tank and it was fine.  I do have a bubble counter and I was getting lime green in my drop checker with approx 5-6 bps.  Also, I'm certain I haven't knocked anything on the regulator as I only open the cupboard door to check the pressure and bubble rate. The only adjustment I didn't make was to the pressure in the regulator's second stage when I changed the diffuser. The inline atomiser requires around 3 bar to function whereas the reactor does not.


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## alto (5 Jun 2016)

I'd contact CO2Art then (they seem to have great customer service) - this should NOT have happened & you definitely don't want a repeat, so I'd request that CO2Art check the regulator performance (hopefully they can send you out a replacement to use interim)  

Again so sorry for your losses


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## rebel (5 Jun 2016)

alto said:


> I'd contact CO2Art then (they seem to have great customer service) - this should NOT have happened & you definitely don't want a repeat, so I'd request that CO2Art check the regulator performance (hopefully they can send you out a replacement to use interim)
> 
> Again so sorry for your losses


I'd agree. Surely they have ways of testing EOTD.


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## zozo (5 Jun 2016)

Not so long ago a regular dual stage looked rather like this


 

Nowadays they come so tiny, when i see them i have difficulty to believe they are dual stage.. Obviously the modern way of sizing these things goes with the cost of quality..


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## alkm (5 Jun 2016)

alto said:


> I'd contact CO2Art then (they seem to have great customer service) - this should NOT have happened & you definitely don't want a repeat, so I'd request that CO2Art check the regulator performance (hopefully they can send you out a replacement to use interim)
> 
> Again so sorry for your losses





rebel said:


> I'd agree. Surely they have ways of testing EOTD.



Cheers Guys.  I'm begining to think it's a fault with regulator so I'll contact CO2art tomorrow and discuss it with them.  There's an air accessories shop down the road from me so I'm going to go down and see if some type of valve can be fitted after the regulator as a fail safe.


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## alkm (5 Jun 2016)

That certainly looks like a quality bit of kitt zozo.  I guess that's another option, spend more money on a regulator as it should , in theory, be on one off purchase.


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## Karol (6 Jun 2016)

Hello,

Alkm, I'm really sorry to hear you lost all your livestock.

Looking at your case, I need to say, this is something we need to investigate what exactly happened. From what I can see there is a lot of different factors (new diffuser, FE which was running out, quite high pressure for reactor, etc) which could affect your livestock. 

Please contact us directly (support@co2art.co.uk) so we can go through everything with you. 

In regard to question you asking I can confirm that this is dual stage regulator. As we mentioned on many different occasions, we designed this regulator for aquatic use. This is why everything is much smaller than in normal industrial dual stage regulator.

Best regards
Karol


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## alkm (6 Jun 2016)

Many thanks for your reply Karol.  I'll contact you as soon as I gat a chance today.


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## alkm (9 Jun 2016)

I thought I'd post a quick update.

I have to say that CO2art has outstanding customer service.  I will be sending the regulator back to them so that they can recreate the conditions that happened in my aquarium (minus the fish).  I have decided to set up a new low tech tank as I don't feel comfortable with a high tech set up until I understand what went wrong.  I was thinking about setting up a second low tech tank anyway, as I've been reading the excellent book by Diana Walstad, so may as well use the tank I've got.

I'd like say thankyou to everyone who replied to me - your input is greatly appreciated .


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## sumitha (26 Nov 2016)

Could you update us on what was wrong with your CO2Art dual stage regulator? Thanks.


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## dw1305 (27 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





alkm said:


> All the fish and amano shrimp in my tank were dead. I feel absolutely gutted, I had a vibrant community of fish and shrimp and now the tank is lifeless. I don't know what I'm going ot do next, I love the hobby but there's no way I'm setting up a CO2 system until I undersstand what went wrong and how this can be avoided.


Bad luck. This is why I'm not a CO2 user.

cheers Darrel


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## Munchy2007 (29 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,Bad luck. This is why I'm not a CO2 user.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I assume you also don't drive a car, because other people have had accidents in them, or go out in the rain in case you get struck by lightning  

But more seriously, I've read a fair few accounts over the years of external filters leaking and tank seals failing, should I play it safe and stop using those too?

I've used CO2 regulators for many years, including the single stage CO2Art ones, and never had anything like this happen, so sadly it appears this was probably just a freak event, and shouldn't really be viewed as a reason to avoid using CO2.


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## dw1305 (29 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





Munchy2007 said:


> I assume you also don't drive a car, because other people have had accidents in them, or go out in the rain in case you get struck by lightning
> 
> But more seriously, I've read a fair few accounts over the years of external filters leaking and tank seals failing, should I play it safe and stop using those too?


 It is different when you can make your own decisions. I've played Rugby and it doesn't get much more stupid than that.

I've killed plenty of fish, via avoidable carelessness, but I'm getting better.

I now take a <"risk management approach to livestock welfare."> I've tried to remove any single points of failure.





Munchy2007 said:


> I've used CO2 regulators for many years, including the single stage CO2Art ones, and never had anything like this happen, so sadly it appears this was probably just a freak event, and shouldn't really be viewed as a reason to avoid using CO2.


My argument would be you don't need to use CO2, if you choose to it is an extra risk for your fish that is entirely avoidable.

It is personal choice whether you use CO2, I don't because I wouldn't find it easy to forgive myself if I gassed the fish that I have a duty of care for. 

It isn't about their financial value, or anything else, if you keep a pet you have a duty of care to look after its welfare to the best of your ability. 

cheers Darrel


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## zozo (29 Nov 2016)

But no way it is bad luck, it is all about responsibility and taking your chances ignoring this..

It is rather tricky to be realy honnest and politicaly correct about this hobby without kicking shins. 

But lets define what we all actualy are doing here.

We keep living tropical creatures in a confined space and try to keep it alive to the best of our knowledge with relying on set of electrical and or technical equipment. 

All this comes with great responsibility.. 

Now because this practice of keeping animals in general is difined as a hobby instead, the resposibility involved gets trivialized to a certain degree. It is a bit downsized to a personal opinion and a personal feeling of what and how important it is for you, instead of a serious obligation. 

The whole marketing concept behind it making it so easily available to the public isn't realy helping.. Anyone getting a brainfart can start experimenting without anybody asking a single question. The trade also has the liberty of ignoring any involved responsibility, producing inferior products for you to rely on and take your chances, you might get lucky.. 

No pun intended this is a just generalization nothing more nothing less.

Same goes for driving cars.. Also here the responsibilities are completely lost in the process.. We all drive around in our killer cooky jar like maniacs. If you want to drive a humvee able to go 300 mph... No problem mate it is your own responsibility to treat it with respect.. If you crash and kill a dosen others.. Bad luck mate.. Wrong place, wrong time..

The whole world needs to be reeducated about responsibility.. There is no pointing finger, we all equaly as guithy.

If there no longer comes electrical power out of our walls we all are busted.. But as long as we have this, we can keep risks to a minimum. It's your responsibilty to know how to do this before you start in the first place.. Failing to think of something you didn't know is far from bad luck. Calling it bad luck is a demagogical plaster on the wound.. Deal with it and ... 

Good luck..


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## sumitha (30 Nov 2016)

We may have gone slightly off topic from CO2Art's dual stage regulator! I've got one in the post heading towards me for my first attempt at a high tech tank so was hoping to confirm that their bad batch of dual stage regulators from January 2016 was a one off. 

To continue(off-topic!), I am quite risk averse when it comes to equipment and also realise I don't always have the time for rigorous maintenance. This summer I went to the extreme of replacing all my canister filters with DIY Hamburg Matten Filters powered by Jetlifters. These should give months (potentially years) of zero maintenance filtration without sucking up fry/shrimplets or getting blocked/reduced flow. 

The high tech 50L tank I'm hoping to setup is on a two month dry start at the moment. It's going to be fishless until I know what I'm doing with CO2 or perhaps with a pair of Threadfin Rainbows who aren't competing for food very well with my Black Bar Endlers.


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## zozo (30 Nov 2016)

The only extra safety device you could build in regarding co2 is a pH controler switching your solenoid, still doesn't mean your totaly off the hook..  Also this needs regular maintenance and double check. That's the con of equiptment in general, if it fails to do what it needs to do..

pH controllers might have pros and cons regarding plantgrowth as some state or experienced, tho i myself never encounetered one yet.. But besides this it is a pretty relyable safety switch in a co2 setup. That's also th ereason why i bought the darn thing  i had a always fluctuating bubble count and the choice, buy a new regulator and hope its ok or put the pH controller in.. Either way, was going to cost me, so i took my changes with the pH controller and happy with it.


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## dw1305 (30 Nov 2016)

Hi all, 





sumitha said:


> This summer I went to the extreme of replacing all my canister filters with DIY Hamburg Matten Filters powered by Jetlifters. These should give months (potentially years) of zero maintenance filtration without sucking up fry/shrimplets or getting blocked/reduced flow.


I like Matten filters as well. I haven't tried the <"jetlifters">, but they look pretty good.





sumitha said:


> or perhaps with a pair of Threadfin Rainbows who aren't competing for food very well


They really like micro-worms.

cheers Darrel


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## sumitha (30 Nov 2016)

zozo said:


> pH controllers might have pros and cons regarding plantgrowth as some state or experienced, tho i myself never encounetered one yet.. But besides this it is a pretty relyable safety switch in a co2 setup. That's also th ereason why i bought the darn thing  i had a always fluctuating bubble count and the choice, buy a new regulator and hope its ok or put the pH controller in.. Either way, was going to cost me, so i took my changes with the pH controller and happy with it.



It's a slippery slope Marcel. My CO2Art dual stage regulator arrived today. I still need to get an FE, diffuser and CO2 tubing. I've got a ph probe knocking around somewhere but won't be surprised if I fork out for a ph controller next.  

Cheers, John


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## sumitha (30 Nov 2016)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I like Matten filters as well. I haven't tried the <"jetlifters">, but they look pretty good.



I got my Poret foam and Jetlifters from Swiss Tropicals (where you linked). I'm quite happy with both except postage costs from the US + customs changes + fees. I suggest trying our German friends instead https://www.garnelen-tom.de/zwerggarnelen-shop/HMF-Luftheber.The Aqua Mac airlifters look especially tempting. 



dw1305 said:


> They really like micro-worms.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Thanks Darrel. I used to run several different live cultures but slacked off due to family and work commitments. Have got some frozen cyclops waiting as a treat for the threadfins once they get their own tank away from my Endlers. 

Cheers, John


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