# NO3 and PO4, should we dose them with moderation?



## Victor (26 Dec 2017)

Hi there. Recently I was reading some stuffs about nitrates and phosphates and I found some scary informations on the manual of PO4 and NO3 kit tests. Just take a look: 


 


          This information is from 2 big brands, Sera and JBL. They don't say to keep NO3 and PO4 at 0 ppm but advise us to don't let the NO3 level to be above 50 ppm and PO4 above 1 ppm. According to both brands, these nutrients levels will induce algae blooms besides injures fishes and the own plants. To be clear, JBL recommends a NO3 level range between 10 and 30 ppm and a PO4 level range between 0,1 and 1,5 ppm. In the other hand, the brand Sera recommends to keep PO4 always less than 1 ppm and NO3 less than 50 ppm, preferably less than 25 ppm. 
         So, it's known that zero NO3 and PO4 causes algae, it's true. Because without them the plants become malnourished and weaken what makes algae boom. Fine, this makes sense. But what happens if we dose too much NO3 and PO4? Well, It seems to be harmful as well, leading the algae to bloom. 
         So my question is, should we dose less than standard EI? I was thinking to dose half of EI once a week. I mean, 1 ppm of PO4, 10 ppm of NO3, 2 ppm of Mg, 4 ppm of Ca and 0,2 ppm of Fe once a week, after water change, in a high light tank. What do you think about? Please, share your opinions. Thank you.


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## Zeus. (26 Dec 2017)

Victor said:


> Hi there. Recently I was reading some stuffs about nitrates and phosphates and I found some scary informations on the manual of PO4 and NO3 kit tests. Just take a look: View attachment 111966 View attachment 111967
> This information is from 2 big brands, Sera and JBL. They don't say to keep NO3 and PO4 at 0 ppm but advise us to don't let the NO3 level to be above 50 ppm and PO4 above 1 ppm. According to both brands, these nutrients levels will induce algae blooms besides injures fishes and the own plants. To be clear, JBL recommends a NO3 level range between 10 and 30 ppm and a PO4 level range between 0,1 and 1,5 ppm. In the other hand, the brand Sera recommends to keep PO4 always less than 1 ppm and NO3 less than 50 ppm, preferably less than 25 ppm.
> So, it's known that zero NO3 and PO4 causes algae, it's true. Because without them the plants become malnourished and weaken what makes algae boom. Fine, this makes sense. But what happens if we dose too much NO3 and PO4? Well, It seems to be harmful as well, leading the algae to bloom.
> So my question is, should we dose less than standard EI? I was thinking to dose half of EI once a week. I mean, 1 ppm of PO4, 10 ppm of NO3, 2 ppm of Mg, 4 ppm of Ca and 0,2 ppm of Fe once a week, after water change, in a high light tank. What do you think about? Please, share your opinions. Thank you.


I didn't read the manual as we don't do test kits in the hobby, if we do we get in big trouble with Clive our resident CO2/ Nutrition High Preist.
Clive was using X5 EI dose in one of his tanks and it looked great, healthy plants no algea. Plus we have been informed that excess nutrition doesn't cause aglea just healthy plants.

Maybe this is just another try at the industry trying to get us to buy test kits with some lose data which they keep on file, make lose quotes about there findings then tell you about there great product to solve the problem.

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## foxfish (26 Dec 2017)

I think you will find a lot of people who will disagree with your links but, I think you should go with your feelings and if you want to use less ferts you should do just that.
This subject is quite a hot topic and can be found on mutable threads throughout  the forum pages.


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## Chubbs (26 Dec 2017)

Zeus. said:


> make lose quotes about there findings then tell you about there great product to solve the problem.



My thoughts exactly.

It’s all about balance. Lots of plants mean higher nutient demand so supply (the dose) needs to be bigger. Less plants smaller dose. There isn’t a one size fits all and the beauty of EI dosing is that it’s all guess work. If you’re going to geek out about numbers a milligrams you’re doing it wrong. Start off small and then increase and hone it in until you get the perfect mix of lush growth and no algae.

If you’re dosing is automated try spreading larger doses throughout your lighting period. I found this to help my tank a lot.


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## GHNelson (26 Dec 2017)

Hi Victor
Dosing higher levels of fertilizer's do not cause algae issues!
This is a old Urban Myth that we are trying to quell on this Forum......Very high lighting is one off the main instigators of various algae problems.
Poor cleaning routine is another, test kit are unreliable at giving very accurate results!
Therefore most members on here don't use them, or use them as a very very rough guide!
You could dose less....and monitor the aquariums plant health and growth for 4 to 6 weeks!
hoggie


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## Victor (26 Dec 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Maybe this is just another try at the industry trying to get us to buy test kits with some lose data which they keep on file, make lose quotes about there findings then tell you about there great product to solve the problem.


I don't know, I think it's not. Take a look at this page I found in Tropica's website:

   This time it's nothing related to test kits but to a fertilizer made by Tropica. Notice that the company is warning to dose with caution. If it's dosed more than plants absorption rate is very likely the tank will get algae (it's not me saying, it's Tropica). So if the Tropica purpose is only get profit, they'll never give us this warning. Instead, they would put some advise as "you can dose more if you want, N and P will don't cause any issues to your tank" because they sell a product with these elements. I'm very worried because I have algae issues for years and years and I always run full EI. But maybe these companies (Sera, JBL, Tropica) could be right. I have no idea but it seems to be a limit dosage for NO3 and PO4 until the point to induce an algae bloom. The weekly dosage of "tropica plant growth specialise" (the green one fertilizer) yields only 1,6 ppm of N (7,1 ppm NO3) and only 0,12 ppm P (0,36 ppm PO4). This is the weekly dosage. You can check here: 








hogan53 said:


> Dosing higher levels of fertilizer's do not cause algae issues!


I'm very confused now. All warnings I read from the biggest aquarium companies say the opposite. I'm not saying they're right but this information scared me.


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## foxfish (26 Dec 2017)

I really think you should reduce your ferts & see what happens.
That might be the only way to discover for yourself, because there will always be conflicting advice out there.
What is the worst that can happen?
I am sure everyone on this forum will be interested with your results.
Personally I have use EI for many years & the only problem I have had is from Customs opening the packets of powder prier to delivery!


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## zozo (26 Dec 2017)

Victor said:


> This time it's nothing related to test kits but to a fertilizer made by Tropica. Notice that the company is warning to dose with caution. If it's dosed more than plants absorption rate is very likely the tank will get algae (it's not me saying, it's Tropica). So if the Tropica purpose is only get profit, they'll never give us this warning. Instead, they would put some advise as "you can dose more if you want, N and P will don't cause any issues to your tank" because they sell a product with these elements. I'm very worried because I have algae issues for years and years and I always run full EI. But maybe these companies (Sera, JBL, Tropica) could be right. I have no idea but it seems to be a limit dosage for NO3 and PO4 until the point to induce an algae bloom. The weekly dosage of "tropica plant growth specialise" (the green one fertilizer) yields only 1,6 ppm of N (7,1 ppm NO3) and only 0,12 ppm P (0,36 ppm PO4). This is the weekly dosage. You can check here:



It's indeed a form of marketing.. They have to put something on the bottle but don't have room for the complete story.. They can only put on so much information in very small letters and still informative it's a half truth and even less than a nutshell. In general consencus in the scientific world Eutrophication is the major cause of algae blooms. If you read what this stands for, than it says enough and understandable that a manufacturer doesn't want to sell a "yes/no" discussion to the average customer which doesn't even come close to knowing half of the complete story. So they play it safe and sell you an educative half truth in the shortest way possible.


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2017)

I always start high then reduce the amount of ferts never the ratios, It seems most people seem to get problems when they chase certain ferts with unreliable results from test kits.With EI nothing is set in stone. To much wont hurt but to little will give you probs.
On my curent tank i dose tropica premium and special on alternate days for convenience really the tank is only 90ltrs. I also dose special N daily so although ive never tested the NO3 must be off the scale.Healthy plants. No algea issues at all.
Not saying its right or wrong just my personal experience.


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## GHNelson (26 Dec 2017)

Hi Victor if you have algae issues....you must look elsewhere for the cause or causes!
Poor unhealthy growth in certain plants, is usually down to poor deployment of lighting and fluctuating Co2!
Substrate can even play a part in poor growth....inert substrate like sand/gravel can be a problem for the more difficult plants like Pogostemon helferi!
I found this plant really tricky to grow 
Good luck 
Cheers
hoggie


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## Victor (26 Dec 2017)

foxfish said:


> I really think you should reduce your ferts & see what happens.


I'll do this. Perhaps half of EI in a high light tank is enough to avoid any plant nutrient deficiency


Daveslaney said:


> On my curent tank i dose tropica premium and special on alternate days for convenience really the tank is only 90ltrs. I also dose special N daily so although ive never tested the NO3 must be off the scale.Healthy plants. No algea issues at all.
> Not saying its right or wrong just my personal experience.


Do you dose the suggested quantity as on the label? If your only source of PO4 is "Tropica specialised" you're adding less than 0,5 ppm of PO4 per week in your tank. And the plants are fine without algae. That means plants really need very low PO4 per week. Your tank is densily planted? What kind of plants you have?


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## Victor (26 Dec 2017)

hogan53 said:


> Hi Victor if you have algae issues....you must look elsewhere for the cause or causes!
> Poor unhealthy growth in certain plants, is usually down to poor deployment of lighting and fluctuating Co2!
> Substrate can even play a part in poor growth....inert substrate like sand/gravel can be a problem for the more difficult plants like Pogostemon helferi!
> I found this plant really tricky to grow


My CO2 is fine, I turn it on 2 hours before lights on and turn it off 2 hours before lights off. My flow ins't a problem as well, about 20 times the tank volume per hour (2 canisters 700 L/h each one + 3 powerheads 1200 L/H each one). All them connected to spraybars on the back side of the tank. Concerning pogostemon helferi I learnt how to thrive it. These are my pogostemons:  



      The secret is high light + CO2. Pogostemon helferi is actually a very demanding lighting plant.


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## GHNelson (26 Dec 2017)

They look pretty healthy.....


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## Victor (26 Dec 2017)

They are but there is also a lot thread algae on them. The camera did no focus the algae but they are there


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2017)

I would say my tank is heavily planted.I have a journal on here that i need to update, River reef 90ltr.
I dose 2 pumps of tropica ferts, 2 pumps special N. The po4 is prob low on the dosing but prob high in my water supply when i do 50% water change weekly?As i say i havent tested for ages. 
This works for me in my situation with this tank. On my last tank my dosing was completely different there is so many varibles.But EI levels give you a good place to start IMHO.


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2017)

Here was my last tank before i broke it down because we moved house.


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## Daveslaney (26 Dec 2017)

Here is my current one. Bit neglected at the min.


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## Victor (27 Dec 2017)

What a stunning tank! So beautiful. 
     About my tank, my main issue is the algae. I'll reduce ferts and see what happens.


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## rebel (27 Dec 2017)

Perhaps the companies are warning people who dont use co2, and use higher light.


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## GHNelson (27 Dec 2017)

Hi Victor
You probably need to reduce your lighting or add floating plants!
Green thread algae is a pain to eradicate as it likes the same conditions as the plants!
Remove as much as possible manually ....you could use this product below!



Cheers
hoggie


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## Daveslaney (27 Dec 2017)

I would say the same as Hoggie, your plants look healthy. I would reduce your light intensity see how that goes for a while.
On the last tank i used to get algae on the slow growing plants. I raised the light 10cm higher added some floaters and it went away.
I doubt it is your ferts causing the algae.


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## Victor (30 Dec 2017)

Daveslaney said:


> I doubt it is your ferts causing the algae


I was researching about this and I found my problem may be Ca deficiency. I read the calcium concentration in the tank can't be below 20 ppm. My tap water TDS is only 60! I was adding, per week, 7 ppm of Mg and only 6 ppm of Ca. Now I'll dose 15 ppm of Ca and 3,75 ppm of Mg per week as PPS (perpectual preservation system) sugers. I'll also raise the NO3 and PO4 concentration to 15 ppm and 1,5 ppm per week (dosing 5ppm of NO3 and 0,5 ppm of PO4, 3 times a week). Maybe the ratio between Ca and Mg and their concentration has an impotant role in planted tank. Calcium and magnesium are macronutrients but we talk very little about them, mainly concerning Ca. I got more information about them here: https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/ca-too-low-high


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