# Appistogramma breeding project



## Hooky (8 Aug 2018)

After recently successfully breeding my Borelli pair I want to try one of the more challenging apistos. My water supplier states my tap water hardness is the following:






I have been looking at Apistogramma Bitaeniata / Mendezi and Abacaxis, would any of these be a suitable candidate for a breeding project with my water hardness?


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## SolarPear (8 Aug 2018)

All of those species above are long removed for their native origins. I have  had the Bitaeniate and Elizabethan spawn in terrible London water so you should be ok. The potential issue is raising the fry as the female tends to eat them on her 1st/2nd spawn. I combat that by placing a small vase as a breeding cave and removing it 7 days after the fry have hatched. Earlier if you see them swimming inside the vase. 

During feeding is the best time to do this.


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## Hooky (8 Aug 2018)

SolarPear said:


> All of those species above are long removed for their native origins. I have  had the Bitaeniate and Elizabethan spawn in terrible London water so you should be ok. The potential issue is raising the fry as the female tends to eat them on her 1st/2nd spawn. I combat that by placing a small vase as a breeding cave and removing it 7 days after the fry have hatched. Earlier if you see them swimming inside the vase.
> 
> During feeding is the best time to do this.


Were your fish WC? I was always under the impression that it was never a good idea to remove apisto fry. Of the above species which are the easiest to raise the fry?


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## SolarPear (8 Aug 2018)

Hooky said:


> Were your fish WC? I was always under the impression that it was never a good idea to remove apisto fry. Of the above species which are the easiest to raise the fry?



I was under the impression that impression too. But then I ran into a guy from apistogramma forum years back who gave me a how-to on this method. It has never failed. I should add that when moving them I use tank water from the tank they were spawned in to keep the parameters exact or as close as possible.

If by WC you mean water change then yes. I always use cold water for water changes but if there are apisto eggs, I tend to temperature match a little closer.


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## Hooky (8 Aug 2018)

SolarPear said:


> If by WC you mean water change then yes.



Sorry meant Wild Caught.

Thanks for the vase trick. What apistos do you currently breed?


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## sparkyweasel (8 Aug 2018)

It's not unusual to lose the first batch or two, but they will normally get the hang of it after that, IF your breeders were raised by their own parents. It's often much harder if they were raised away from their parents. WC should be fine, CB will depend on the source.
I also find that dwarf and medium cichlids look after their eggs and fry better if they have something to protect them from, so (in a large enough tank) two or more pairs or harems are often more successful than when you give one a nice tank all to themselves. Same or different species will work. If you haven't  got space for multiple territories, some suitable dither fish will help.


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## SolarPear (8 Aug 2018)

Hooky said:


> Sorry meant Wild Caught.
> 
> Thanks for the vase trick. What apistos do you currently breed?



Currently, none. Previously I've kept and raised fry from too many to mention but I've never considered myself a breeder. To be fair and like I mentioned earlier, once they start breeding it's hard for them to stop lol. I would raise fry them in my 180L juwel. And then sell (or get store credit) to my lfs. I just liked process.

And as for Wild Caught I don't believe it to be true. Unless "Wild" is a euphemism for Czech Republic / European fish farms.


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## Hooky (8 Aug 2018)

Does anyone know of any lfs that regularly stock WC appistogramma


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## Edvet (9 Aug 2018)

SolarPear said:


> Wild Caught I don't believe it to be true


Does depend on the LFS, mine imports almost all fish from their original country, but that is a specialist shop.


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## Edvet (9 Aug 2018)

Hooky, as good as those parameters look make sure about chlorine and chloramine.
Set up a dim lighted tank with lots of wood and leaves, floaters and you can try it. Feed some live foods and it should work.


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## Hooky (9 Aug 2018)

Edvet said:


> Hooky, as good as those parameters look make sure about chlorine and chloramine.
> Set up a dim lighted tank with lots of wood and leaves, floaters and you can try it. Feed some live foods and it should work.



Thanks Edvet


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## Hooky (10 Aug 2018)

Out of the three species  Apistogramma Bitaeniata / Mendezi and Abacaxis, which have the easiest fry to raise?


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## Edvet (10 Aug 2018)

I don't think they differ that much if you have a good food supply, microworms, vinegar worms, freshly hatched brine shrimp, grindal worms, enchytraeae, mosquito larvae.


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## Hooky (10 Aug 2018)

I have a good supply of Microworms and regularly feed all my fish freshly hatched BBS so I should be okay.

What PH should I aim for for breeding each species?


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## Edvet (10 Aug 2018)

Around 6 should be good, maybe lower to 5 and TDS  about 80-100 if the eggs don't hatch.


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## dw1305 (10 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





Hooky said:


> I have been looking at Apistogramma Bitaeniata / Mendezi and Abacaxis, would any of these be a suitable candidate for a breeding project with my water hardness?


Should be.





Hooky said:


> Does anyone know of any lfs that regularly stock WC appistogramma


They aren't easy to get. The MA at Leekes at Melksham have some in sometimes, but they won't be cheap, if you phone ask for "Tom", he is the man with expertise. 

Peter Clarke is another option (have a look for him on Facebook, he is based in Chesterfield).





SolarPear said:


> I have had the Bitaeniate and Elizabethan spawn in terrible London water so you should be ok.


 I've never kept either, but that is an incredible success, A. elizabaethae is a <"really tricky black-water fish">.

cheers Darrel


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## Hooky (10 Aug 2018)

Thanks Darrel & Edvet

Mendezi is my personal favourite and the one that if I can source a WC pair I will attempt at an breeding project. I think with my tap water and some minor adjusting to the PH I shouldn't realistically have too many issues I hope lol.

thanks for the advice all


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## Edvet (10 Aug 2018)

In general i try to get two males and two females at the same time and let them figure out the pairing themselves in a larger tank, then rehome the breeding pair in a smaller tank.


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## SolarPear (10 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Should be.They aren't easy to get. The MA at Leekes at Melksham have some in sometimes, but they won't be cheap, if you phone ask for "Tom", he is the man with expertise.
> 
> Peter Clarke is another option (have a look for him on Facebook, he is based in Chesterfield). I've never kept either, but that is an incredible success, A. elizabaethae is a <"really tricky black-water fish">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Aren't all Apistogramma blackwater fish? I've never seen a video of any South American fish in the wild in clear water. They're far removed from their SA cousins. I have added an almond leaf or two in the past to grow out tanks but I find snails to be more effective.



Hooky said:


> Thanks Darrel & Edvet
> 
> Mendezi is my personal favourite and the one that if I can source a WC pair I will attempt at an breeding project. I think with my tap water and some minor adjusting to the PH I shouldn't realistically have too many issues I hope lol.
> 
> thanks for the advice all



Don't tinker with your PH at all. It's not necessary for apistos in my humble opinion.


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## Edvet (10 Aug 2018)

If you lower the microsiemens the pH will usually follow, i don't mean adding all kinds of acids, but some leaves ( catappa, oak, guava) will lower pH in soft water.


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## dw1305 (10 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





SolarPear said:


> Aren't all Apistogramma blackwater fish?


No, they occur away from the central Amazon basin in the Pantanal, Llanos and Andes piedmont. Have a look at <"Amazon Biotope">

Generally the species you see for sale are those from waters with higher base status, generally the softer the water is the more difficult they are to keep. _Apistogramma cacatuoides_ is an example of a species from harder water. 

Also have a look at <"TomC's"> and <"ApistoBob's"> web sites, they are really useful resources.

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (10 Aug 2018)

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...&ll=-27.34147054378889,-50.84431393812099&z=4


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## SolarPear (10 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, No, they occur away from the central Amazon basin in the Pantanal, Llanos and Andes piedmont. Have a look at <"Amazon Biotope">
> 
> Generally the species you see for sale are those from waters with higher base status, generally the softer the water is the more difficult they are to keep. _Apistogramma cacatuoides_ is an example of a species from harder water.
> 
> ...



I think there is a disconnect between what we're talking about. I'm not referring to the conditions of an apistos "natural" habitat. Indeed it'd be very difficult to take a species from South America and put them into a tank I have now and hope that they'd breed. Truth be told under those conditions I don't think they even survive.

But the breeds we import from Europe and Asia are easy in comparison. The rarest Apisto I ever kept was the Tucururi. I was on Holiday when they came up for sale so had a family member purchase them for me. I got back a few days later and was super excited to see how they looked in real life. They spawned after a couple of weeks. I fed them NLS and frozen/live food for conditioning. I never got fry from them. The female didn't take to any vase or cave I added and instead laid eggs on the glass. And then ate her fry after they became free swimming.

I've never attempted to change or even slightly adjust the parameters of my tank. I know the PH of my water and the TDS count (because I have a shrimp tank.) In retrospect, I've also kept species of shrimp which, according to any literature available, shouldn't be able to survive in my parameters and have had them "breed" and molt successfully.

My only rule in terms of spawning is don't mess with the water source and the rest will take care of itself.

Lastly there are several youtubers who have gone of South American fishing trips. The first person I ever saw doing this is a guy called Dustin. Most of his SA fish didn't survive long. While these types of vids make for great viewing the fish never seem to survive for too long once shipped and in their tanks.



Edvet said:


> If you lower the microsiemens the pH will usually follow, i don't mean adding all kinds of acids, but some leaves ( catappa, oak, guava) will lower pH in soft water.



My Ph hovers between 7.5 and 8. As for the leaf type I use indian almond leaves adding two or so to a 125 or 180L. After boiling to remove tannins. But I find that adding large apple snails is more effective in terms of fry food.


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## dw1305 (10 Aug 2018)

Hi all, 





SolarPear said:


> The first person I ever saw doing this is a guy called Dustin. Most of his SA fish didn't survive long. While these types of vids make for great viewing the fish never seem to survive for too long once shipped and in their tanks.


Have a look at Tom C's web site. 

cheers Darrel


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## SolarPear (10 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Have a look at Tom C's web site.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I've spoken to Tom many times before and have visited his website numerous times. So I'm unsure of what you're referring to by referencing his site? I've also been a member of a forum he moderates since 2010.


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## dw1305 (10 Aug 2018)

Hi all,





SolarPear said:


> I've spoken to Tom many times before and have visited his website numerous times. So I'm unsure of what you're referring to by referencing his site?


I just mean Tom is a wealth of knowledge and his web site shows fish that he collected in Peru, the biotopes he collected them from, and the water parameters at the sites he collected fish from. 

He has bred a fabulous range of the fish he collected. 

Personally I've been a long term _Apistogramma_ keeper, although a pretty shoddy one, and the limited success I've had has been because I've listened to advice from Bob Wiltshire, Larry Waybright, Tom, Mike Wise, Ted Judy, Ste Chesters, Mark Breeze, Gerald etc. on <"Apistogramma forums">. 

It was from Apistogramma forums that I first became a member of UKAPS (via  Ed Seeley who was active on both forums ~ten years ago).

cheers Darrel


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## SolarPear (10 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I just mean Tom is a wealth of knowledge and his web site shows fish that he collected in Peru, the biotopes he collected them from, and the water parameters at the sites he collected fish from.
> 
> He has bred a fabulous range of the fish he collected.
> 
> ...



Ahhh I see.

For me it was a video of an apistogramma inka that brought me into the hobby. I thought you were suggesting that the Elizabaethae can't be bred in anything outside of specific parameters. It was on one of those forums where I read the following (not verbatim)
_
"All commercially available apistogrammas can spawn in your tank" 
_
And I guess that's why I've never given parameters much thought beyond temp and keeping Ammonia and Nitrite in check. I'm sorry to hear you've had limited success.

Side note: In the midst of our recent heat wave and talk of a hose pipe ban, on the news (I don't remember which channel) a reporter mentioned London has terrible water in comparison to even developing parts of Europe. When I moved to the outskirts (different water board) and found my TDS at 300 I damn near jumped for joy. Previously it was 480 - 490 rising to over 500 in warmer months.

I don't have much advice to give on the planted side of things. I've never grown a H. Pinnatifida successfully and for some strange reason I've had every stem of S repens I've ever planted melt soon after. So I guess we take our "successes" wherever we can find them. My only advice would be to switch to NLS food as a staple for apistos. I noticed a big change in colour within a week or two. I had a macmasteri that went from red to looking almost neon(ish) red. The trio had spawned several times before but my wife was struck by how much he had changed in brightness and thought it was a different fish. I also noticed their next spawns were massive.

I hope that helps.


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## dw1305 (10 Aug 2018)

Hi all,





SolarPear said:


> I thought you were suggesting that the Elizabaethae can't be bred in anything outside of specific parameters.


It isn't a species I've kept (I've steered away from the black-water species of _Apistogramma_), but my understanding was that it is tricky to keep alive, trickier to spawn and even trickier to successfully raise the fry. 





SolarPear said:


> apistogramma inka that brought me into the hobby


_Apistogramma (baenschi) _Inka50 is a cracking fish, I'm hoping to get some more fairly soon. 





SolarPear said:


> I'm sorry to hear you've had limited success.


So am I, it has usually started really promisingly, but sooner or later I've done something really stupid and <"it has all ended in tears">. These are the gorgeous <"_Dicrossus maculatus__">, _that ended up bloating for me (from <"Show us ....">).






The only long term successes I've ever had were <"_A. cacatuoides_, _A. trifasciata_ and _A. borellii">,_ I don't mention the _borellii_ in that thread, but I had the same problems with them, nobody wanted the fry locally_._


SolarPear said:


> My only advice would be to switch to NLS food as a staple for apistos. I noticed a big change in colour within a week or two.


They don't tend to get a lot of dry food, they mainly get live food, supplemented with Astax red crumb from TA Aquaculture.

Here is a crap video of my last pair of _A. agassizii_


I might try NLS food, I think some of the issues I've had have been too many Grindal and Blackworms in the winter when I don't have many _Daphnia_ etc. 

cheers Darrel


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## SolarPear (10 Aug 2018)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,It isn't a species I've kept (I've steered away from the black-water species of _Apistogramma_), but my understanding was that it is tricky to keep alive, trickier to spawn and even trickier to successfully raise the fry. _Apistogramma (baenschi) _Inka50 is a cracking fish, I'm hoping to get some more fairly soon. So am I, it has usually started really promisingly, but sooner or later I've done something really stupid and <"it has all ended in tears">. These are the gorgeous <"_Dicrossus maculatus__">, _that ended up bloating for me (from <"Show us ....">).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Honestly I think diet might be where the issue is. I only fed mine live/frozen food once a week. Twice if I wanted them to spawn. Other than that it was NLS. When I started out I thought that if I didn't feed them live foods they would starve. Especially the apistos that spat out flake/pellets after adding them to te tank. But I learned that once they get hungry enough they'll follow the dithers and eat the flake/pellet. I had a hongsloi that held out for 4 days until the female started eating and he followed suit. A week later he'd damn near break the surface to be first in line for the NLS.


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