# Keeping a bare bottom tank... bare bottom... if you know what I mean!



## kadoxu (16 Mar 2018)

Hi,

(If you don't want a background story, skip 3 paragraphs... )

Last year I started keeping Fancy Goldfish. I have 11 of these (wildly overstocked, I know) in a Juwel Rio 240, bare bottom setup, plastic ornamental plants just to give some texture to it, floating plants to keep the water a bit nicer for them, some huge ramshorn snails to help keeping it clean for a bit longer, and a EHEIM Pro 4+ 600 to keep up with the huge amounts of waste these poop factories produce, and an air curtain that helps to keep the bottom clean by creating a bit of circular flow that slowly pushes fish poop to the filter intake.

This tank has been running for 9 months now, nothing wrong with it, fish are happy and healthy, just a bit of poop build up near the filter intake, but I know how to fix that one.

Now, I also made myself a member of the Goldfish Society of Great Britain, and they are going to do a "Pearlscale Challenge" were they give a couple of fish to interested members, so they can grow them up and take them to a couple shows during the next year or so. I'm picking up 2 of these on Sunday, so I set up a nice "container" (can't really call tank to a £5 plastic tub) with a couple sponge filters, floating plants, etc... 

The issue: Debris build up on the bottom of the tank.
So I'm trying to come up with something to help me fix it. I've search loads, but aren't really 100% happy with any of the options I found.

Option 1 - I kinda like this, but building an internal overflow for a plastic tub seems too much trouble... I do have some ideas on how to achieve this though.


Option 2 - Also like the idea of this connected to a spray bar that pushes debris into it, but couldn't really find cheap polyester tube. Probably something similar with PVC pipes?


Any ideas?

A couple more details about the "container", it's a 50L clear plastic container, I really don't want to make holes in it, and will be at ground level. I'll provide some pics later, if I can.


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## Gill (16 Mar 2018)

Yes Goldies are indeed poop machines. 
I am a Member with them aswell, but not been to a meetup for years.  
Have a look at these, I like Joeys idea alot.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=undergravel+jet+system


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## alto (16 Mar 2018)

This article may give you pause regarding keeping fish long term in plastic

Microplastics in Bottled Water 

At the least check your bin is food grade, then plasticizers must meet specific guidelines 
Lighting also impacts fish appearance, in general iridophores develop best in sunlight 

Have fun with your project


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## sciencefiction (16 Mar 2018)

alto said:


> This article may give you pause regarding keeping fish long term in plastic
> 
> Microplastics in Bottled Water
> 
> ...



From the article:

I_t's not clear how the plastic is getting into the bottled water — whether it's the water source itself or the air or the manufacturing and bottling process._

The plastic bin should be food grade. Apart from that, there's no issue...Microplastics are everywhere


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## alto (16 Mar 2018)

The point of the article link was more about the fact that plastic residues are isolated from fish organs & tissue, it's not just "storage" but also biochemical modifications at varied levels of metabolism 
(though that may've been discussed in the associated reports  )

I hate reading these articles, the investigative reporting is always lacking


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## sciencefiction (16 Mar 2018)

Yes, the ocean is filled with plastic fish right now and apparently we're drinking plastic water too  It's really horrible stuff what we humans have done...


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## kadoxu (16 Mar 2018)

Gill said:


> Yes Goldies are indeed poop machines.
> I am a Member with them aswell, but not been to a meetup for years.
> Have a look at these, I like Joeys idea alot.
> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=undergravel+jet+system



Thanks Gill!


alto said:


> This article may give you pause regarding keeping fish long term in plastic
> 
> Microplastics in Bottled Water
> 
> ...


Thanks @alto! I don't plan to keep them there for long... just "ran out" of quarantine tanks!


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## sciencefiction (16 Mar 2018)

kadoxu said:


> Thanks @alto! I don't plan to keep them there for long... just "ran out" of quarantine tanks!



Don't forget to ditch the plastic filters too  , and any fish that have been in contact with plastic  I am now going to search to get me some glass external filters


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## kadoxu (17 Mar 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Don't forget to ditch the plastic filters too  , and any fish that have been in contact with plastic  I am now going to search to get me some glass external filters


C'mon man... You made your point, but this is no longer helping anyone, is it?


Now back to topic...
I tried a small pump in a corner of the "container" to check if the flow would  circulate around the bottom, and as expected, it doesn't. The format of the container makes the flow go upwards when it hits a wall... So I'll need to use a spraybar in the bottom for sure.

The container's pics:


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## kadoxu (20 Mar 2018)

So, I built an internal canister filter out of a bottle... added a spray bar and positioned the filter horizontally to see how it worked. Not too bad, but I'm still not too happy with it, so I'm gonna try to make it a bit shorter so it works vertically, leaving less places in the container for debris to build up.


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## Aqua360 (22 Mar 2018)

at risk of sounding simple, depending on cleaning schedule id just siphon out the bottom crap...with goldfish you'll be looking at likely bi-weekly water changes anyway in a container that size, so it may be a non-existent problem


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## kadoxu (22 Mar 2018)

Aqua360 said:


> at risk of sounding simple, depending on cleaning schedule id just siphon out the bottom crap...with goldfish you'll be looking at likely bi-weekly water changes anyway in a container that size, so it may be a non-existent problem


Can't really start a siphon at ground level...


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## Aqua360 (22 Mar 2018)

kadoxu said:


> Can't really start a siphon at ground level...



a good point lol, might be worth raising the tank even slightly for it


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## Edvet (22 Mar 2018)

How about just a canister filter next to it, with a spraybar to get some circular flow ( like we want in CO2 tanks) and lower the intake till it is on the bottom? And flow it sidewise, not front to back.


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## kadoxu (22 Mar 2018)

Edvet said:


> How about just a canister filter next to it, with a spraybar to get some circular flow ( like we want in CO2 tanks) and lower the intake till it is on the bottom? And flow it sidewise, not front to back.


The problem is I can't have too much flow with Fancy Goldfish in the tank and canister filters should be at least 10cm bellow water level to work properly, because they need a proper siphon to work properly. Even if I could run it horizontally (not sure if I can), it would be a PITA to prime. 
Anyway, I think I'll be able to do something with my "internal" canister filter. I just haven't had much time to play around with it during the week.


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## Edvet (22 Mar 2018)

I have canister filter standing next to the tank, as long as the top of the filter and top of the water are at the same height it works.


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## kadoxu (22 Mar 2018)

Edvet said:


> I have canister filter standing next to the tank, as long as the top of the filter and top of the water are at the same height it works.


My container is about 25cm high, my spare EHEIMs 2213 are about 35cm...


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## Edvet (22 Mar 2018)

...........................................................................


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## sciencefiction (22 Mar 2018)

It can work but you need to prime it manually, i.e. "the mouth method".  Once you get the hoses full the filter should run. Alternatively you can prime the filter on another tank then just move it, taking care to keep the hoses full. Thats how I did it the last time. All my plastic fish kingdom sits on the floor


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## sciencefiction (22 Mar 2018)

Took a picture below of mine. The filter is above the water level by quite a bit. I don't deny it was a pain to prime, but once done, it works just fine. It was "delicious" experience 

The water level is where the black spraybar is.


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## alto (22 Mar 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> Don't forget to ditch the plastic filters too  , and any fish that have been in contact with plastic  I am now going to search to get me some glass external filters


Look at surface areas before getting too caught up in your own cleverness 
There are plastics we can easily avoid & those that are just too practical
There are more & less inert plastics, plastics that must meet regulations, plastics that are virtually unregulated 

The comparatively new trend of bottled water that so enraptured the world dramatically affected plastic manufacture use and disposal - and in some countries has minimal guidelines & zero regulations


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## sciencefiction (22 Mar 2018)

alto said:


> Look at surface areas before getting too caught up in your own cleverness
> There are plastics we can easily avoid & those that are just too practical
> There are more & less inert plastics, plastics that must meet regulations, plastics that are virtually unregulated
> 
> The comparatively new trend of bottled water that so enraptured the world dramatically affected plastic manufacture use and disposal - and in some countries has minimal guidelines & zero regulations



My response was to the link you provided. It stated the source of microplastics in bottled water has not been identified. Therefore that same article you posted as a warning not to keep fish in plastic, actually does not confirm the actual bottle is the source of the micro-plastic. It could have been the way the water is bottled, the water source(very likely), it could be anything. Plastic is a big issue in natural water systems, where we get our drinking and bottled water from. The fish also eat plastic waste! Now if they take a chunk out of their tank, there's nothing I can do 

I use food grade containers. The rating is at the bottom of plastic containers. Next time you use one, turn it upside down and look. I am not denying the damage plastic waste has done. I just think that it does not mean it is harmful to keep fish in plastic containers, So far so good for me. Thanks for your concern.


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## roadmaster (23 Mar 2018)

kadoxu said:


> The problem is I can't have too much flow with Fancy Goldfish in the tank and canister filters should be at least 10cm bellow water level to work properly, because they need a proper siphon to work properly. Even if I could run it horizontally (not sure if I can), it would be a PITA to prime.
> Anyway, I think I'll be able to do something with my "internal" canister filter. I just haven't had much time to play around with it during the week.



Could place a powerhead on sponge filter lift tube.= water movement and mechanical + biological filter medium.
I have done as much with Aquaclear 70 powerhead (old 802), on lift tube of Hydro V sponge filter's  in tanks where fishes appreciated a little extra water movement.
Not sure I would have accepted fishes knowing I did not have  a larger tank,or quarantine tank but it is what it is now.
With smaller volume of water,water changes may need to be more frequent?Food's,fish poo.and  whatever other airborne matter can find it's way into the tank if outdoor's?
I sometimes keep baitfish outdoor's in galvanized tubs and on occasion plastic tubs but they are seldom in the tub's for more than a few days.


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## roadmaster (23 Mar 2018)

Powerhead mounted to sponge filter might work fairly well for some water movement plus biological/mechanical filtration.


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## sciencefiction (23 Mar 2018)

roadmaster said:


> Powerhead mounted to sponge filter might work fairly well for some water movement plus biological/mechanical filtration.



I had a filter like that in my small tank for years,...sponge filter to a power head. When using sponge filters, the detritus won't be sucked in, because of the sponge but other than that it works fine. I'd just siphon the detritus. Its not good if it goes inside the bio media anyway. I have pre-filter sponges on the intakes of my filters and I need to siphon every so often. The good part is that if you set the flow right, the detritus will gather just in front of the sponge intake....But then gold fish might no appreciate such degree of flow...


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## roadmaster (23 Mar 2018)

Yes,I think a smaller powerhead (less flow) would be consideration in smaller container's.


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## kadoxu (23 Mar 2018)

sciencefiction said:


> It can work but you need to prime it manually, i.e. "the mouth method".  Once you get the hoses full the filter should run. Alternatively you can prime the filter on another tank then just move it, taking care to keep the hoses full. Thats how I did it the last time. All my plastic fish kingdom sits on the floor


I like to avoid the taste of fishy water whenever I can!  



sciencefiction said:


> Took a picture below of mine. The filter is above the water level by quite a bit. I don't deny it was a pain to prime, but once done, it works just fine. It was "delicious" experience
> 
> The water level is where the black spraybar is.


You need to be really careful with the water level and power outages. If the power goes out and your water level is hitting your outlet, you'll be in trouble. 



roadmaster said:


> Could place a powerhead on sponge filter lift tube.= water movement and mechanical + biological filter medium.
> I have done as much with Aquaclear 70 powerhead (old 802), on lift tube of Hydro V sponge filter's  in tanks where fishes appreciated a little extra water movement.


I'm only trying to keep a clean bottom, I have more than enough biological filtration in place. If you read the previous posts, you'll see that I did try a small pump and came to the conclusion it's not enough for what I'm trying to achieve here.



roadmaster said:


> Not sure I would have accepted fishes knowing I did not have  a larger tank,or quarantine tank but it is what it is now.
> With smaller volume of water,water changes may need to be more frequent?Food's,fish poo.and  whatever other airborne matter can find it's way into the tank if outdoor's?
> I sometimes keep baitfish outdoor's in galvanized tubs and on occasion plastic tubs but they are seldom in the tub's for more than a few days.


Not quite sure about what you're trying to say here... 
I do have a larger tank, and this is a quarantine container (can't still call it a tank), which is more than suitable for the fish I'm getting. Weekly water changes are more than enough for them as well... I just like my bare bottom tanks... bare of poop, that's what this thread is about.



sciencefiction said:


> I had a filter like that in my small tank for years,...sponge filter to a power head. When using sponge filters, the detritus won't be sucked in, because of the sponge but other than that it works fine. I'd just siphon the detritus. Its not good if it goes inside the bio media anyway. I have pre-filter sponges on the intakes of my filters and I need to siphon every so often. The good part is that if you set the flow right, the detritus will gather just in front of the sponge intake....But then gold fish might no appreciate such degree of flow...


Like I said before, siphoning at ground level is not really an option... and the main reason for this DIY project is because Goldfish are very lazy, but also very efficient poop factories!


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## PARAGUAY (23 Mar 2018)

Kevin Novak in his You Tube series has a goldfish tank same gravel 25yaers (java fern simlar age)using a plenum  ,the gravel looks pristine.


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## kadoxu (23 Mar 2018)

PARAGUAY said:


> Kevin Novak in his You Tube series has a goldfish tank same gravel 25yaers (java fern simlar age)using a plenum  ,the gravel looks pristine.


Found the video (I believe)

So, if I get it right, a plenum, is an undergravel filter attached to an external filter, is that it? So the gravel will work as filter media.


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## PARAGUAY (23 Mar 2018)

Not sure what you would do,the plenum appears to be a method he endorses ,probably research the method?


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## roadmaster (23 Mar 2018)

kadoxu said:


> My container is about 25cm high, my spare EHEIMs 2213 are about 35cm...



Is a small tub,get it up off the ground and syphoning and canister will work.
All one has to do is empty it,set it on some kind of stand,refill it.
This does not seem to me to be much of an issue at all unless one chooses to make it so.
Cannot speak to your area,but in my area ,such a tub on the ground outdoor's would invite all manner of four legged creatures to drink or fish from the tub.
Have had squirrels,dog's,cat's,raccoons,owls come to drink or in search of a meal.


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## kadoxu (23 Mar 2018)

roadmaster said:


> Is a small tub,get it up off the ground and syphoning and canister will work.
> All one has to do is empty it,set it on some kind of stand,refill it.


But I don't wanna...  I got your point the first time... so here goes again:

I have more than enough filtration in place
My external filters are too strong for Fancy Goldfish
I don't have spare intakes
I don't want to spend money
I have no use for the stand after the 6 week quarantine period
I just don't want poo in the bottom of the aquarium



roadmaster said:


> This does not seem to me to be much of an issue at all unless one chooses to make it so.


So don't make one out of it.  I'm trying to use this as a way to experiment and learn new stuff, not go the easy way around.



roadmaster said:


> Cannot speak to your area,but in my area ,such a tub on the ground outdoor's would invite all manner of four legged creatures to drink or fish from the tub.
> Have had squirrels,dog's,cat's,raccoons,owls come to drink or in search of a meal.


Why would you think it's outdoors?!


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## roadmaster (23 Mar 2018)

Pffft!


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## kadoxu (23 Mar 2018)

In the meantime, I got some Golf Balls in the mail! 
They're about 1 inch... so cute!


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## kadoxu (24 Mar 2018)

I call it... Shorty! And it worked pretty well... until I picked it up and the elastic bands snapped...


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