# Dark Start



## SMW945 (3 Jul 2021)

Hi. Not doing it at present, but seen a little on social media and YouTube regarding dark start for tank setup and minimising ammonia and algae etc. Looks good on paper. Has  anyone tried it and been successful?


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## Deano3 (3 Jul 2021)

I have seen it mentioned a few times now and i will certainly be trying when i rescape, no water changes while dark starting for 3 weeks or so and the beneficial bacteria should build but whilst cycling then after drain and plants only 1 water change a week but i may do more but sounds good 

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## SMW945 (4 Jul 2021)

I agree. Especially if using an aqua soil that tends to give off a lot of ammonia. Gives chance for the beneficial bacteria to build up and, as you say, no water changes for that 3 week period 👍


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## foxfish (4 Jul 2021)

Surely better to get plants in from day one than look at a dark tank for three weeks?


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## Zeus. (4 Jul 2021)

Its the similar method which was use by James Findley & The Green Machine on many of his scapes ( I went there once and was informed by one of his crew), it doesn't show in his video's. They hardscaped, paused filming, flooded tank, wait four to six weeks with filters running no lights or CO2, drain to substrate level, resume filming and plant etc
But waiting weeks with a dark tank like @foxfish says


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## SMW945 (4 Jul 2021)

Yep Zeus, I hear what you and Foxfish are saying. ‘Normal’ setup with daily water changes week 1, bi-daily week 2 etc is what I have done for a long time. Just interested if anybody has successfully done dark start and if it was worth 3 weeks or so looking at  a dark, hardscaped only tank


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## dw1305 (4 Jul 2021)

Hi all,


SMW945 said:


> Just interested if anybody has successfully done dark start and if it was worth 3 weeks or so looking at a dark, hardscaped only tank


<"@Cor and @Hades"> have done it.

You may be interested in <"Planted aquarium: fishless cycle before planting or cycle with plants?">.

cheers Darrel


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## SMW945 (5 Jul 2021)

Thanks Darryl. Interesting reading 👍


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## Wookii (5 Jul 2021)

I personally would run a dark start every time when using aqua soils, even with a mature filter, for me it's not about 'cycling' a tank, that's best done fully planted, it's about getting rid of all the ammonia at start-up, so only needs to happen for a week or two with plenty of water changes. I've lost loads of plants on initial start-up due to ammonia melt, which then leads to algae from the higher than normal organic loading - it just puts your tank on the back foot from day one unnecessarily.

I did a dark start on my recent rescape, though only for one week as I only added a couple of litres of new soil. Even then though the initial ammonia inrush was well over 1ppm, and enough to melt leaves on more sensitive plants like Buce or invitro plants. As it is I've not had a single issue on the rescape so far.


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## Courtneybst (5 Jul 2021)

Wookii said:


> I personally would run a dark start every time when using aqua soils, even with a mature filter, for me it's not about 'cycling' a tank, that's best done fully planted, it's about getting rid of all the ammonia at start-up, so only needs to happen for a week or two with plenty of water changes. I've lost loads of plants on initial start-up due to ammonia melt, which then leads to algae from the higher than normal organic loading - it just puts your tank on the back foot from day one unnecessarily.
> 
> I did a dark start on my recent rescape, though only for one week as I only added a couple of litres of new soil. Even then though the initial ammonia inrush was well over 1ppm, and enough to melt leaves on more sensitive plants like Buce or invitro plants. As it is I've not had a single issue on the rescape so far.


Would you recommend dark start for mature/used soils? Or only for new?


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## Wookii (5 Jul 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> Would you recommend dark start for mature/used soils? Or only for new?



Just for new I'd say - they load them with so much bloody ammonia its a real PITA to be honest. If using just old/bacterially mature soil, I'd probably be inclined to do a 100% water change immediately after planting to remove any organics released into the water column from disturbing detritus trapped in the soil, but after that it should be fine. That's a much better way to go on a rescape I reckon to help get your tank back up to that bacterial maturity sweet-spot quicker, providing the old soil isn't ancient and completely turned to mush.


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## Libba (6 Jul 2021)

I dark started my tank for two months before planting. I had all the gear but didn't want to plant until I moved house so I just ran it lights off. Since lights have been on I've never changed more than 30% of the water once per week. Practically zero algae at any stage and I'm two months in.


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## arcturus (6 Jul 2021)

SMW945 said:


> Hi. Not doing it at present, but seen a little on social media and YouTube regarding dark start for tank setup and minimising ammonia and algae etc. Looks good on paper. Has  anyone tried it and been successful?


A lot of the discussion around the "dark start" method comes from the aquascaping community that often uses specialized nutrient-rich soils. As others have commented, a goal of this method is to allow sufficient time for the substrate to stabilize and to reduce the concentration of chemicals _before _you plant the tank. This is important with substrates that contain a high amount of ammonia, such as ADA Amazonia and Tropica Substrate. If you plant right away in such substrates you risk melting more sensitive plants due to the significant amount of chemicals that will leech out of the substrate for weeks. And if your plants are struggling and melting away while the tank is not yet stabilized then you are opening the doors for algae. This is a reason why very frequent water changes are required in such setups. With the dark start you basically skip the frequent water changes - I would say it is an excellent method to use before going on vacation  However, if you use a "neutral" substrate the dark start should have no major advantages compared to starting the tank with plants.


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## Dogtemple (6 Jul 2021)

just to make it easier, could you not chuck the substrate in a bucket (or a few buckets) and top off with water.  and just skim off the ammonia rich water, refill every couple of days?

might be a quicker and easier way to do it


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## Ady34 (6 Jul 2021)

Hi,
Interesting thread. 
I will definitely be dark starting my next scape that uses new soil, despite having to look at an empty unplanted tank.
My three most recent scapes have been plagued with plant melt in the early weeks despite daily water changes. I have used predominantly tissue culture plants and new soils both Tropica and ADA. This has been exceptionally frustrating and I’d much rather look at an empty tank than struggle with a failing one. I will try this method and see if it makes a difference to my success or failure. I believe I have been doing everything I can to ensure success regards co2, lighting, distribution and maintenance and plants have still failed. I have used mature media in the filter but with little impact. I really do not know exactly what is happening but the dark start and ammonia eradication will be my next port of call. 
cheerio
Ady.


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## Deano3 (7 Jul 2021)

Ady34 said:


> Hi,
> Interesting thread.
> I will definitely be dark starting my next scape that uses new soil, despite having to look at an empty unplanted tank.
> My three most recent scapes have been plagued with plant melt in the early weeks despite daily water changes. I have used predominantly tissue culture plants and new soils both Tropica and ADA. This has been exceptionally frustrating and I’d much rather look at an empty tank than struggle with a failing one. I will try this method and see if it makes a difference to my success or failure. I believe I have been doing everything I can to ensure success regards co2, lighting, distribution and maintenance and plants have still failed. I have used mature media in the filter but with little impact. I really do not know exactly what is happening but the dark start and ammonia eradication will be my next port of call.
> ...


Thats my thinking i agree may he boring but if saves you a fortune and saves daily water changed  for me will be easier i do 12 hour shifts and coming home and doing daily water changes is a pita so of that can be saved i am all for it, and will certainly be trying it.

Thanks

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## arcturus (9 Jul 2021)

Dogtemple said:


> just to make it easier, could you not chuck the substrate in a bucket (or a few buckets) and top off with water.  and just skim off the ammonia rich water, refill every couple of days?
> 
> might be a quicker and easier way to do it


The "dark start" is a kind of tank "cycling" method. Its goal is not only to reduce ammonia and other chemicals from the rich substrate but also to initiate the "cycling" of the tank. That is why the tank is left on its own for 4-6 weeks (with just a couple of water changes during this period) with all equipment running except lights and CO2. The result is that the substrate and the rest of the tank, including filters and media, will (start to) stabilize due to chemical processes (such as ion exchange) and organic processes resulting from the bacteria cultures that will develop during this whole process. So, the dark start is not the same as simply washing the ammonia out of the substrate, which you can certainly do if you place it in a bucket.


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## Dogtemple (9 Jul 2021)

arcturus said:


> The "dark start" is a kind of tank "cycling" method. Its goal is not only to reduce ammonia and other chemicals from the rich substrate but also to initiate the "cycling" of the tank. That is why the tank is left on its own for 4-6 weeks (with just a couple of water changes during this period) with all equipment running except lights and CO2. The result is that the substrate and the rest of the tank, including filters and media, will (start to) stabilize due to chemical processes (such as ion exchange) and organic processes resulting from the bacteria cultures that will develop during this whole process. So, the dark start is not the same as simply washing the ammonia out of the substrate, which you can certainly do if you place it in a bucket.



I was think doing this but running a filter along side it too.  Only say this as it would be easier to have it set up in a spare bathroom or something running out of sight and would be easy to empty and refill.  Just a thought of course. 

When I do this I won’t be using a large amount of substrate due to a relatively small tank.  Might be easier for my set up at least.


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## Tim Harrison (9 Jul 2021)

Ady34 said:


> Hi,
> Interesting thread.
> I will definitely be dark starting my next scape that uses new soil, despite having to look at an empty unplanted tank.
> My three most recent scapes have been plagued with plant melt in the early weeks despite daily water changes. I have used predominantly tissue culture plants and new soils both Tropica and ADA. This has been exceptionally frustrating and I’d much rather look at an empty tank than struggle with a failing one. I will try this method and see if it makes a difference to my success or failure. I believe I have been doing everything I can to ensure success regards co2, lighting, distribution and maintenance and plants have still failed. I have used mature media in the filter but with little impact. I really do not know exactly what is happening but the dark start and ammonia eradication will be my next port of call.
> ...


It must be catching Ady me too. I tried the dark start method a while ago and it worked like a charm, no diatomaceous algae and no melt that I can remember.  I hooked up the filter and left everything well alone for a couple of weeks then drained scaped and planted.


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## Andrew74 (14 Aug 2021)

I currently doing the dark start method on a 180l tank. Initially filled on Monday 9th aug. Plan on draining and planting weekend of 4th sept. Livestock weekend 2nd oct.


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## Leepants (31 Aug 2021)

Hi folks - first post!

After needing to (impatiently) wait for LFS to get plants in, I decided to do this in my brand new shiny 40 litre tank. I have a neighbour who has a couple of tanks, so is going to give me about 10 - 20 litres to pop in my tank to help mature it all.

Would this help with my impatience in potentially lowering the maturing time? I have about 1cm of fluval sratum and then 3 - 4cm (going up to about 6 inches in one corner) of flourite black and intend to plant the whole floor and some moss "trees" on the hardscape.

A secondary question - I will add a clean up crew of a few clithon snails and a small herd of amano shrimp soon after planting and therefore lights going on. Roughly how long after planting, or is it basically to keep an eye on algae as both crews should be readily available? I also intend to add a few Otocunclus catfish to assist too, but possibly a little later as I believe they aren't quite so hardy.
Final aim is to basically have cardinal tetra and a few teeny loaches / barbs (can't remember the name). I'm thinking around christmas for these so let the plants do their thing and settle in.

Happy to hear any other thoughts on my plans! I'm very new to actual plants (I also weirdly despise gardening in all forms) but have a fair ability to learn, but there is a fair amount of contradictory stuff about, so I believe it's not a binary "yes" or "no" to doing various practices. I have had a bit of a read around and will be reading more on here too!

Thanks.


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## dw1305 (31 Aug 2021)

Hi all, 


Leepants said:


> I have a neighbour who has a couple of tanks, so is going to give me about 10 - 20 litres to pop in my tank to help mature it all.


Welcome to UKAPS, rather than water you really need some filter media out of their filter (or even just <"the sponge squeezings and mulm">)?


Leepants said:


> Roughly how long after planting,


I like <"six weeks">, but there are a number of variables.


Leepants said:


> I'm very new to actual plants (I also weirdly despise gardening in all forms) but have a fair ability to learn........


I'd recommend plants from the <"Tropica "Easy" section">.


Leepants said:


> but there is a fair amount of contradictory stuff about, so I believe it's not a binary "yes" or "no" to doing various practices. I have had a bit of a read around and will be reading more on here too!


I'm biased, but I'd take anything you read on a forum (other than UKAPS), or ae told by a LFS, <"with a pinch of salt">.

cheers Darrel


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## Leepants (31 Aug 2021)

Thanks DW!  I should have thought about filter maturity rather than just "water" maturing on it's own - appreciated. I'll see if there's an option to pop my filter innerds into his fancier set up.

For variables, is it dependant on testing water, although that in itself seems to be a dark, unagreed-upon type of magic!?

Yep - I have a list of plants, so will correlate with the easy section. I haven't yet done that........ again, thanks for the shout. Something LFS advised too.

I'm finding my LFS are _pretty_ decent - they absolutely aren't just about selling - they are just getting into fish stuff (traditionally a reptile place) and one of the 2 staff was employed specifically for his aquaria knowledge and he's super chilled and is enjoying my impatient giddiness, but is VERY much telling me that patience is key. But I hear you! He also knows I'm happy to shop elsewhere and doesn't really care!


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## dw1305 (31 Aug 2021)

Hi all,


Leepants said:


> For variables, is it dependant on testing water, although that in itself seems to be a dark, unagreed-upon type of magic!?


Opinions vary about the usefulness of  test kits and meters, some members will regard them as an <"essential part of tank maintenance">, some will be less sure. We aren't anti-testing, I'd really like to know the <"water parameters of my tanks">, but you just need to bear in mind that there are a <"number of issues">.


Leepants said:


> I'm finding my LFS are _pretty_ decent - they absolutely aren't just about selling - they are just getting into fish stuff (traditionally a reptile place) and one of the 2 staff was employed specifically for his aquaria knowledge and he's super chilled and is enjoying my impatient giddiness, but is VERY much telling me that patience is key.


There are a lot of good LFS, you can see our forum sponsors and links in the <"Where to buy threads">. Generally I like a <"fish keeper with a shop">, rather than a "shop keeper with fish", mainly because I'm reasonably good with plants, but a <"pretty shoddy fish keeper">.

cheers Darrel


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## Leepants (31 Aug 2021)

Yeh, the blokey keeps fish and has for a long while, even though he's not an old man! 

As for test kits - I don't know another way (yet) to have an idea on what's going on with the water, besides plants or fish dying, which is, frankly ££. But test kits aren't exactly cheap.......


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## dw1305 (31 Aug 2021)

Hi all,


Leepants said:


> I don't know another way (yet) to have an idea on what's going on with the water


That is really the advantage of a planted tank, if the plants growing they will improve water conditions for the fish. If you like the plants do the <"heavy lifting for you">.

If you take nitrate (NO3-) as an example in non-planted tanks its level continually rises and it can only be reduced by water changes, denitrification or expensive anion exchange resins. In a planted tank NO3- levels fall as plants convert <"that fixed nitrogen"> (N) into chlorophyll. When you remove that plant matter the nitrogen goes with it.


Leepants said:


> But test kits aren't exactly cheap.......


@sparkyweasel might have a <"thread for you">.

cheers Darrel


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## Dominik K (31 Aug 2021)

Leepants said:


> Yeh, the blokey keeps fish and has for a long while, even though he's not an old man!
> 
> As for test kits - I don't know another way (yet) to have an idea on what's going on with the water, besides plants or fish dying, which is, frankly ££. But test kits aren't exactly cheap.......



As someone recently embarking on this journey, I would certainly advise against the test strips. Those things are pretty much useless. 
I picked up a 3in one (PH, Nitrate & ammonia) reagent kit from LFS. 

Although its not perfect Its comforting to know that when I added my Neon tetras to the tank with some nerites the fish were just shy rather then being killed by amonia/Huge levels of nitrate.


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## Leepants (31 Aug 2021)

Dominik - I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off thi! I need to learn to balance fish needs and plant needs....


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## Leepants (31 Aug 2021)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> That is really the advantage of a planted tank, if the plants growing they will improve water conditions for the fish. If you like the plants do the <"heavy lifting for you">.
> 
> ...


I half understand that. But I want to keep fish in a pretty tank, so the fish are my priority. Does that make sense? I as yet, have NO clue what NO3 does for fish. I know NO4 (I think) makes my voice squeek.,......


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## MichaelJ (31 Aug 2021)

Leepants said:


> I half understand that. But I want to keep fish in a pretty tank, so the fish are my priority. Does that make sense?


@Leepants  Yes, and there is (usually) no conflict between a beautiful planted tank and happy fish - you just have to be mindful of what you put together.



Leepants said:


> I as yet, have NO clue what NO3 does for fish. I know NO4 (I think) makes my voice squeek.,......


Nitrate (NO3) is plant food - and don't worry about Nitrate (NO3) levels in a planted tank... just make sure you have enough of it with your fertilization. (for non planted tanks NO3 is different beast as it may indicate build up of other toxins).

Nitrite (NO2) on the other hand, and Ammonia (NH3) are the livestock widow makers - both are highly toxic even in very small quantities - Test kits, such as API, usually measure the total (NH4 + NH3) so even a very low (non-zero) reading may not be a problem depending on the temperature and pH of your water, that said, I would always take any non-zero reading in a cycled tank, and established tank as a huge warning sign regardless of temperature and pH and immediately do massive water changes etc.

I am not a very chemistry savvy person - I am trying to educate myself constantly.  It always bugged me to pieces that all these important chemical names that are part of the hobby are so close  for instance:
Nitrate (NO3) (harmless) vs Nitrite (NO2) (very toxic),
Ammonium (NH4)  (relatively harmless at low levels) vs Ammonia (NH3) (very toxic)
Chloride  (harmless) vs Chlorine (very toxic)

(I think I got that right  )

Welcome to UKAPS! 

Cheers,
Michael


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## Leepants (1 Sep 2021)

O hell..... sooo, how to regulate nitrates? Plants spring to my drunken mind....... But! PH too? From school (40 years ago) I seem to recall that NH is alkaline....... As yet, I don't know which is "worse". And I get that temp affects all as add heat = add energy = increase reaction.
I'm also aware that ammonia is bad for ANY living thing. So, how to reduce the N or the H.N is "kind of" easier. H is a by product?I not pumping bubbles in.... So where does the H "appear" from?


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## Tom Ryan (@aquascaperay) (9 Nov 2021)

Hi all, again I can testify that the method works like a charm. Used it ever since starting the hobby 6 years ago and now in the process of creating my second IAPLC aquascape using this method.

Key is to let ammonia levels decrease to 0 (which usually takes 2-3 weeks from setup). Definitely a plus when using wood as it gets it past the 'white mould' phase. Only drawback for me is if you were ever thinking of doing a moss heavy aquascape - as because the hardscape is now in situ in the tank - you'll need to be patient when tieing moss to the wood as it's more difficult than doing this outside the tank! 

But positives definitely outweigh this negative. Don't worry if nitrite or nitrates are still high as long as you plant heavy the plants will use these as food. Some tips below however to make sure you get the most out of the dark start method (as although it's a lot easier than the traditional once a day water changes, it still requires some effort for the tanks filtration to become optimum):

Use a surface skimmer and raise lily pipes (biological filtration requires lots of oxygen to multiply - as the tank has no plants just soil, the oxygen levels are really low so you need to increase this to speed up the maturation process)
Large water changes twice a week (this is more of a precautionary method but (especially with aquasoil amazonia) the ammonia levels are through the roof and any ambient light that might get into the tank may cause a small algae outbreak and therefore I found it better to do this than not! Also it helps with point one above!
Cover the tank and all sides so no ambient lighting can get in (a follow on from my second point but definitely one of the most important during the dark start method to prevent any chance of algae)
If using Ro water, remineralise water to the same as when plants/fish are in the tank (I made this mistake in the past and thought I wouldnt need to remineralise my water as there's no fish/plants to use it! This is wrong as bacteria (especially in very acidic water) don't multiply as rapidly and the start up will be prolonged)
Add algae clean up crew 1 week after planting (generally if doing a 3 week dark start you can get away with adding the algae crew 1 week after planting or 4 weeks since setup. You can in fact add them straight away if ammonia and nitrite are 0 but if you are using tissue culture plants i'd advise against this as you'll find they'll float to the surface when shrimps/fish touch them as they aren't properly rooted.
Plant heavy  - despite doing the dark start method it is advisable to still plant heavy as another precaution against any sudden change in water quality
Add seachem prime for first 3 weeks of dark start - helps with promoting growth of beneficial bacteria
Keep to water changes two times a week for first few weeks post dark start - again another precautionary approach but this time you can afford to do the standard 30% water change as now you'll have plants and even fish in the tank so you have to be mindful of not changing too much water at once!

Hope that helps!


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