# External Filter Cycling



## KipperSarnie (30 Dec 2016)

I'm extending the fish room, moving the partition wall, buying new tanks etc.

Is there any reason why I cant start to cycle the new external filters on existing tanks so they are ready when required?

Would it effect the filters already on the tanks?
Would the new tanks be ready for use almost immediately?
Your thoughts & ideas are welcome


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## zozo (30 Dec 2016)

KipperSarnie said:


> s there any reason why I cant start to cycle the new external filters on existing tanks so they are ready when required?


No.. 



KipperSarnie said:


> Would it effect the filters already on the tanks?


Huh? No.. 



KipperSarnie said:


> Would the new tanks be ready for use almost immediately?


No! Ofcourse not.. It's not only the filter doing that job, actualy the substrate and plants do the better part of it all.. So as long the substrate and plants aren't matured enough your matured filter media will only aid "a bit" to speed up the process. Even with using partialy matured substrate and already transisioned plants and matured filtermedia in a new setup, i would wait at least a week or 2 to let it settle and come to rest and check the water parameters before putting in extra bioload as fish and food and such.


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## sciencefiction (31 Dec 2016)

KipperSarnie said:


> Would it effect the filters already on the tanks?
> Would the new tanks be ready for use almost immediately?



Yes and No to those two questions.



KipperSarnie said:


> Is there any reason why I cant start to cycle the new external filters on existing tanks so they are ready when required?



No, no reason why not but you'll never know how much bio load they can handle. I am not sure what your type of fish keeping experience you've had and how long but I get the idea it is long and you've heard of old school cycling....

Id' hook those filters to buckets/plastic containers of some sort....adding ammonia from a bottle daily(plus bits of mature media in the filters to speed it up)Dose to 1-3ppm daily and monitor with ammonia/nitrite test over period of time it would need to cycle the particular filter just right. It is my opinion, tried and tested....then stock fully a tank that can handle 3ppm ammonia and the relevant nitrite produced...in 12-24hrs period.


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## roadmaster (31 Dec 2016)

I do as you are asking all the time when setting up a new tank.
I place a sponge filter or HOB filter on my main display tank's and run the new filter's for a couple three week's before introducing a few fish at a time to the new tank.
So long as one does not go crazy stocking fishes, (who does?) there is little issue.


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## rebel (31 Dec 2016)

In-bucket cycling is a very good method to get things started. Just add ammonia or fish food. Otherwise you can definitely use mature media or cycle alongside in another tank.


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## Costa (31 Dec 2016)

KipperSarnie said:


> Is there any reason why I cant start to cycle the new external filters on existing tanks so they are ready when required?



No issues with that, it's a brilliant way to get your new bio media ready to go in no time. 



KipperSarnie said:


> Would it effect the filters already on the tanks?



No, not in a negative way. 



KipperSarnie said:


> Would the new tanks be ready for use almost immediately?



Assuming the bio media in the new filter are colonised with bacteria from your running tank, when you hook up the new filter in the new tank it will be like doing a 100% water change on the old tank. Ok, you won't have any bacteria in the new substrate but the filter will be perfectly capable of handling a low fish load. Just don't throw in all them 6 wild discus!


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## sciencefiction (31 Dec 2016)

The new filter will grow bacteria to the size of the bioload in that particular tank so if hooked to an existing tank...it may not cycle much if at all... I tried this once with a sponge filter...I let it run in my big tank for weeks and then I moved it to a newly set up shrimp tank..I had literally just 5 shrimp in there...the filter could not handle it at all. I was getting low readings of ammonia and shrimp were sitting motionless.. In the end I took the shrimp out.

 The best way is to simply transfer old established media to the new filter when setting it up and do plenty of water changes at the start until its fully handling the bio load.....or the bucket and ammonia method...If you are going to add the bio load slowly....as in fish by fish...then yes...But if for example you're getting discus, you'd want to get to get them all at once, from exactly the same source and put them in a tank that can handle heavy bioload...to eliminate any possibility of spikes and thus trigger unwanted outcomes and subsequent disease outbreaks. In fact, it is quite risky buying fish one by one, because you're bound to get one that will bring a disease wiping the whole tank....or cross contamination of some sort.


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## KipperSarnie (31 Dec 2016)

sciencefiction said:


> The new filter will grow bacteria to the size of the bioload in that particular tank so if hooked to an existing tank...it may not cycle much if at all... I tried this once with a sponge filter...I let it run in my big tank for weeks and then I moved it to a newly set up shrimp tank..I had literally just 5 shrimp in there...the filter could not handle it at all. I was getting low readings of ammonia and shrimp were sitting motionless.. In the end I took the shrimp out.
> 
> The best way is to simply transfer old established media to the new filter when setting it up and do plenty of water changes at the start until its fully handling the bio load.....or the bucket and ammonia method...If you are going to add the bio load slowly....as in fish by fish...then yes...But if for example you're getting discus, you'd want to get to get them all at once, from exactly the same source and put them in a tank that can handle heavy bioload...to eliminate any possibility of spikes and thus trigger unwanted outcomes and subsequent disease outbreaks. In fact, it is quite risky buying fish one by one, because you're bound to get one that will bring a disease wiping the whole tank....or cross contamination of some sort.



It's a new 600+ litre Discus tank that is on the cards, once i have rearranged the fish room.
No pockets in a shroud so once ready I intend to buy another 10 wild Discus all together & I'm looking at my options in the preparation of these.


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## dw1305 (31 Dec 2016)

Hi all,





sciencefiction said:


> The best way is to simply transfer old established media to the new filter when setting it up and do plenty of water changes at the start until its fully handling the bio load


This is what I do, basically you can take half the media out of the filter, and then give the new media (for both filters) a good swish around in the mulm from the existing filter. 





sciencefiction said:


> adding ammonia from a bottle daily


We are going to differ on this one. I'm not personally a fan of ammonia addition, partially because it doesn't produce an appropriate microbial assemblage in the filter media and partially because I am never going to be reliant on a canister filter for microbial filtration.

If you can set up the tank and plant it (even if the planting just consists of some floating plants) that is an enormous advantage for microbial filtration. It is in the "RNA" linked thread but nearly all the traditional articles and posts about cycling hugely underestimate the contribution of plants, the efficiency of plant/microbe filtration systems and the <"importance of oxygen">.  

Since the development of <"RNA and DNA libraries"> there has been a large amount of scientific literature which looks at nitrification in waste water etc, and even scientists like Dr Tim Hovanec have changed their ideas about the mechanisms and microbial assemblages which lead to aerobic nitrification.

cheers Darrel


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## sciencefiction (1 Jan 2017)

He, he Darrel....We always disagree on this topic. Why don't you try to prove me wrong....Cycle a tank fishlessly using ammonia from a bottle, then stock that tank fully...see how it goes..The microbial activity you're talking about will come along too. It is just an NH4 containing bottle....One can think of it as a fertilizer. There's ammonia in tanks all the time...and the actual ammonia cycle period during fishless cycling is about a week.... but it takes a couple more for nitrites to start rapidly being converted....no damage done to a fishless tank whatsoever and the actual maturity of a tank, after nitrification is efficient, takes months...I am sure it develops just the right type of bacteria that would normally thrive in your tap water as long as one does not change the source of water after the tank is being cycled. You don't need science and labs for that, you need to do it over and over again with the same success and science is about trial and error. There are different type of scientists. Take Nicola Tesla and Einstein being an example of vastly different approaches.


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## Tim Harrison (1 Jan 2017)

I'm with Darrel on this also...if only because I've never found it necessary to add additional ammonia in order to cycle a tank.
My heavily planted dirt tanks usually cycle in a week or so.
Although, I also acknowledge there are several paths to success


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## zozo (2 Jan 2017)

Tim Harrison said:


> I'm with Darrel on this also...if only because I've never found it necessary to add additional ammonia in order to cycle a tank.
> My heavily planted dirt tanks usually cycle in a week or so.
> Although, I also acknowledge there are several paths to success



There is quite a load of bacteria in the tapwater, in the world around us and on us.. And it doesn't need a lot of bioload to multiply. People who sport and use water bottles or have pets with drinking bowls experience this biofilm forming within days if the bottle or bowl is not cleaned before every refill. Throwing plants and wood and soil in the tank is enough to speed this process up.. And then you only need to find a little patience to get the plants throught the first transplant shock and start growing (cycling) and taking up ferts. There are tons of theories and products to find claiming to speed these processes up. But there is one thing you can't change and just have to go with what you get. That's plant quality and it's stored energy to get through this first shock. Some plants are rather fast others especialy young plants can take up to 2 weeks (and much longer) before doing something vissible and some just don't make it, no matter what you try to push down their troath. It's wait and see and once you see vissible new growth you have proof of the cycle starting and going in the right direction. Lets call that the hand of god in our tank, container, garden or plant pot what so ever.


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## KipperSarnie (2 Jan 2017)

Here is the reason for the original question:
I'm extending the fish room for new guests!


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## zozo (2 Jan 2017)

Beautifull fish..  Is your goal a bare tank?


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## KipperSarnie (2 Jan 2017)

No, I'm not a lover of bare tanks although I've learnt my lesson, Discus are hard work in a fully planted tank.

All my Discus tanks have sand or JBL Manado as a base with Twisted Hazel "Driftwood" a few pebbles & Amazon sword plants.
Their natural biotope has lot's of driftwood, no plants but Echinodorus are found in the area.


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## dw1305 (2 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





sciencefiction said:


> The microbial activity you're talking about will come along too. It is just an NH4 containing bottle....One can think of it as a fertilizer. There's ammonia in tanks all the time...and the actual ammonia cycle period during fishless cycling is about a week.... but it takes a couple more for nitrites to start rapidly being converted....no damage done to a fishless tank whatsoever and the actual maturity of a tank, after nitrification is efficient, takes months..


Yes, but it is back to the shades of grey argument. When you add filter material from an established system you have added a bacterial supplement that is appropriate for your water, as long as you have reasonable levels of dissolved oxygen, that initial microbial supplement will offer a flexible response to the changing nutrient supply. I don't see it as a binary switch between "non-cycled" and "cycled", I don't actually think that "cycled" is a very useful concept.  Stephan Tanner explains the time scale for the development of a fully functioning ecosystem  in <"Aquarium Biofiltration">.

You can cycle a filter with ammonia, and then measure the relative levels of NH3, NO2- & NO3-, add all your stock, and then rely on microbial filtration from a canister filter. It is possible, and plenty of people do it, but you are always balanced on razor edge where any sudden increase in the bioload, or loss of dissolved oxygen, is likely to lead to a positive feed-back loop where ammonia  levels rise in the tank. Once you've added plants, and a substrate, you don't have a single point of failure.

Once our tank is established we are back to Liebig's law of the minimum, one resource will limit each organisms potential growth and levels of the main nutrients (in microbial terms "the substrate"), nitrogen, carbon, oxygen etc will regulate the microbial community.  





zozo said:


> And it doesn't need a lot of bioload to multiply. People who sport and use water bottles or have pets with drinking bowls experience this biofilm forming within days if the bottle or bowl is not cleaned before every refill. Throwing plants and wood and soil in the tank is enough to speed this process up.


Yes this is also a good point, the traditional view is that only a very specialized suite of bacteria perform nitrification, and that they have specific requirements, which must be  fulfilled for them to function. But, we know that this isn't actually the case, partially because the ammonia oxidising bacteria that were assumed to provide this role in aquariums (they were isolated from sewage treatment) are, at most, minor players. 

I can't get full-text of this paper <"Microbial Succession and Nitrogen Cycling in Cultured Biofilms as Affected by the Inorganic Nitrogen Availability">, but the abstract suggests that nitrogen deficient systems are more diverse and flexible;





> Biofilms were cultured using a flow incubator either with replete inorganic nitrogen (N-rep) or without exogenous inorganic nitrogen supply (N-def). The results showed that the biomass and nitrogen and phosphorous accumulation of biofilms were limited by N deficiency; however, as expected, the N-def biofilms had significantly higher microbial diversity than that of N-rep biofilms. The microbial community of biofilms shifted in composition and abundance in response to ambient inorganic nitrogen level.


cheers Darrel


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## zozo (2 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> No, I'm not a lover of bare tanks although I've learnt my lesson, Discus are hard work in a fully planted tank.



Never considered a fully planted sump for an unplanted discus biotope? That would by my way if had room for a huge tank.  Thinking about it a lot, but i guess it will be a dream forever.


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## dw1305 (2 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





KipperSarnie said:


> Their natural biotope has lot's of driftwood, no plants


You can have floating plants. 

I spoke with Norwegian _Apistogramma_ keeper TomC a while ago about how common _Pistia stratiotes_ (Nile Cabbage) was in the Peruvian Amazon basin, and he said it was pretty much ubiquitous where-ever the surface flow allows it to collect. There are some images in <"Collecting in Pebas..."> (you might like the articles section of the web-site).

This is from Heiko Bleher: <"Authentic Biotope Aquarium _Lago Cuipeuá – Amazon_"> 





> The decoration is biotope-correct, as seen by me in Cuipeuá during raising water.


. Cheers Darrel


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## zozo (2 Jan 2017)

dw1305 said:


> _Pistia stratiotes_ (Nile Cabbage) was in the Peruvian Amazon basin, and he said it was pretty much ubiquitous where-ever the surface flow allows it to collect.



I noticed this last week, watching some documentary filmed at the amazone and its tributaries. With every marginal shot they tried to catch an aligator on film to show potential dangers.. And every shot had more Pistia than Aligators it was everywhere.. 



> Their natural biotope has lot's of driftwood, no plants



That's a bit the tunnel vision the biotoop recreator suffers from, looking at a very small picture..  You can't place a 1000 litre plantless tank in the same perspective as the big picture.. The wild discus have a whole marginal jungle and probably places with abundand aquatic plants upstream in their biotope.


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## sciencefiction (2 Jan 2017)

Yes, I recently watched a documentary about the Amazonian river, full of Pistia. I think the reason for the unplanted discus tanks is the belief planted tanks grow too many pathogens discus can't cope with...


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## KipperSarnie (2 Jan 2017)

One of the considerations has to be few plants thrive at the higher temperatures.
I know many plantsmen offer a "Discus Collection" but when you investigate non of the plants are actually recommended for the high temperature.
I should also add all my tanks have floating plant, I believe they give the fish a sense of security as well as shaded areas & they also like to cruise the plant looking for tid bits.

The tank-scape is as much part of the pleasure as the fish are!


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## KipperSarnie (2 Jan 2017)

Thanks for the biotope link I'm getting quite a collection from a number of authors.


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## sciencefiction (2 Jan 2017)

The recommended temperature for discus is actually 26-27C. Most plants will do just fine in that temp.


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## dw1305 (2 Jan 2017)

Hi all, 





KipperSarnie said:


> I know many plantsmen offer a "Discus Collection" but when you investigate non of the plants are actually recommended for the high temperature.


You are safe enough with floaters like _Pistia_ and _Salvinia_, they will definitely take very high temperatures and very bright light. Carbon dioxide availability isn't an issue either, because they have floating leaves.

Here is another biotope one: <"Aquatic herbaceous plants of the Amazon floodplains: state of the art and research needed">

<"These pictures"> were taken from plants that grew in the glasshouse, where water temperatures must have reached 40oC fairly regularly.

cheers Darrel


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## darrensp (2 Jan 2017)

http://www.flowgrow.de/db/aquaticpl...phvalue][min]=4.5&filter[nitrate][max]=75This may help you find plants


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## KipperSarnie (3 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> The recommended temperature for discus is actually 26-27C. Most plants will do just fine in that temp.



26-27c Where is this information from?
Everywhere I have read the recommended temperature is 30c.
I keep mine in a range of 28.5 to 30c.


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## roadmaster (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> 26-27c Where is this information from?
> Everywhere I have read the recommended temperature is 30c.
> I keep mine in a range of 28.5 to 30c.



Temperature range you are keeping them at is fine.
Just not a whole lotta other species of fishes much care for them.(Warmer temps)
Echinodorus,Vallesneria,Wysteria,anubia,many crypt's would work along with floater's like duck weed.
Me thinks my Discus keeping experience would have been much more enjoyable/easier, if I had been fully aware of the benefit's plant's provide at assimilating that which I performed many water changes to remove every other day with group's of young juveniles.


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> 26-27c Where is this information from?
> Everywhere I have read the recommended temperature is 30c.
> I keep mine in a range of 28.5 to 30c.



Discus forums but in nature that is also the norm. I am not sure all information out there is reliable and lots of it is contradictive.


KipperSarnie said:


> 26-27c Where is this information from?
> Everywhere I have read the recommended temperature is 30c.
> I keep mine in a range of 28.5 to 30c.



Almost all Heiko Bleher biotope info states those temperature ranges. But here is from a discus forum. You'd want temp 80-82F whatever that is in C according to experienced keepers.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showt...-Warm-Enough-for-Discus&highlight=temperature


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## KipperSarnie (3 Jan 2017)

82 - 84F is about 27.8 - 28.9C
The first post giving these temperatures date back to 2008.

The latest post on that topic, Sept' 2016, is about the fish being healthier less lethargic with better appetites at the higher temperature of 84-86F  28.9 - 30C.

The big problem with Discus forums is they seem to be "Affiliated" & have a cliche of bully Prima Donnas with their own entourage of followers.
A couple I've belonged to I have had posts removed because I've dared to question.  In a polite way I should add.
(I set up my own forum on FB to overcome this problem......  3 members ....  Two of which are me!  )

I would also think that the majority of Discus discussed are hybrids of which I have no interest.

I post a lot here at UKAPS because I have planted tanks, nothing to the skill level of others here but also because the forums are friendly & very very helpful.
A disagreement is a discussion.  Not an argument!


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## zozo (3 Jan 2017)

Focus on the first 30 seconds


skip to 1:00 minute to 1:20


The most informative youtube documentaries are still the german ones (unfortunately for the non german speakers). 
12.33 to 15:30 and 19:59 to 21:40

Depending on the season Discus dwell in various habitats, high water season they go into the shallow tributaries with plenty marginal (aquatic) vegitation. (As seen in the first and second vid. Low water season they are more at marginal places in the deeper main stream, always in areas with abundand cover, that's where the so often seen non planted overhanging root structure biotope recreations probably find its origine. At these places they are actualy caught at very dark nights, full moon nights light penetrates deeper and they go to deep to be caught. 

Actualy in my idea creating a as true as possible discus biotope, one would need to build a huge riparium recreating a high water tributary.
Sigh...  If i where a rich man.. Deedle didle deedle dum....


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> I would also think that the majority of Discus discussed are hybrids of which I have no interest.



What are your reliable sources for keeping wilds at 28.5-30 C


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## roadmaster (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> 82 - 84F is about 27.8 - 28.9C
> The first post giving these temperatures date back to 2008.
> 
> The latest post on that topic, Sept' 2016, is about the fish being healthier less lethargic with better appetites at the higher temperature of 84-86F  28.9 - 30C.
> ...



Will this tank be relatively low tech?
I am not sure wild Discus  if you wish, would take readily to the sharp increase in TDS from dry fertilizer's we add consistently for plant's  considering they often come from water's with very low TDS and or hardness..
Domestic strains,or hybrid's if you wish, would maybe be more forgiving.
No worries if R/O mix with tap water and stored for water changes IMHO


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## KipperSarnie (3 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> What are your reliable sources for keeping wilds at 28.5-30 C



I never used the word reliable!
I seem to be under interrogation here! for wanting the best conditions for my fish.
My sources are Stenker, discus-somethingsphishy.com, Aquatechnics & various articles from breeders, suppliers particularly articles about the Rio Nanay, Lake Tefe & the Rio Tefe.



roadmaster said:


> Will this tank be relatively low tech?
> IMHO



All my Discus tanks are LowTec I believe.  External filters, added peat, airline, mixture of RO & HMA water with added blackwater tonic & minerals.


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## roadmaster (3 Jan 2017)

Handsome tanks in photo's, just my style!
Just a tip,,Can boil some pure sphagnum peat and pour through cheese cloth or old T-shirt,and make your own black water extract.


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## zozo (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> I seem to be under interrogation here!


 

In the 3th video from above they checked and measured the Rio Negro flood areas etc. parameters where these wild Discus are caught.

Not always blackwater biotope, oftenly also very clear water low in tanins, but always very clean (low bioload) and very poor in minerals.
in average
< 20 µS
pH 4 to 5
29 to 30°C water temp

But thats the seasonal high water measurments in the shallow forest flood areas, only few months a year starting november they are neted in large groups. After water level has dropped again and only the main stream holds water they only can be caught by hand in very dark nights and very clear water with a small net and a flashlight at the shores in the marginal growth hiding places

. It is said, the low conductivity of the water makes it possible to use a flashlight bellow water to find them. So this tells the conductivity doesn't realy change that much during the seasons. Other parameters are not mentioned.. But i guess the main stream probaly will be a bit colder than the slower flowing shallows during the flood.

So it doesn't say you need to keep wilds like that..  but it can't be wrong if you do..


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> I seem to be under interrogation here! for wanting the best conditions for my fish.



No...not at all.

I would just like to know what your sources are because all my research leads to different temperatures. It is not my business to tell you how to take care of your fish. However you are contradicting my information and I thought you have solid,reliable,time tested, empirical reasons...or whatever word you would like to use. . Do you mind posting specific links? A bunch of forums isnt much useful




KipperSarnie said:


> The latest post on that topic, Sept' 2016, is about the fish being healthier less lethargic with better appetites at the higher temperature of 84-86F 28.9 - 30C.



I could not see a post frim September..regardless if one bothers to read the entire thread..the consensus is 80-82F...and so is on most similar threads.


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## KipperSarnie (3 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> I could not see a post frim September..regardless if one bothers to read the entire thread..the consensus is 80-82F...and so is on most similar threads.



Sorry! June 2016 not September


Quote:
_"Newbie here. Sounds like that might be the best way for their overall health and growth, but in my case @ 82F one out of seven of my Discus wasn't eating at all, two others were barely picking at food. The non-eater was spitting out food ( going on 3 weeks) was getting ready to treat for Hex until someone said to raise temp to 84F-86F. I raised it to 84.5F and immediately the non-eater started eating, the picky ones were ravenous. This all happened when I got my first group for my 180gal. Yes I did start feeding AL's FDBWs around the same time but I think raising the temp helped save my fish. All my fish are now eating alot and doing well, I feed 3xday."_
Quoted reply:
"Kenny, that is what I saw as well but to a lesser extreme. They just were not moving as much and were not showing a lot of interest in food. They ate but not like they do when they are just a bit warmer. One thing I have learned is to watch them they can pretty much let you know if they are not happy.

Here is another quote from the same forum you quoted from:

Quote: 

"John, I have seen you post many times that 82 is the only temp to keep Discus at. I am just curious and not trying to stir the pot but every other post I have seen for growing them out is a bit higher than that. When you gave that advice a while back I turned my heaters down and noticed their appetites dropped noticeably. I kept it there for a week to see if they just needed some time to adapt. They did not. I raised it back to 84 and they went back to their hearty appetites. I now keep it there. They are not yet adults but healthy and growing nicely and just seem to do better in warmer water. 
I have seen your enviable fish room and I know you are an experienced keeper. Do your tanks stay at 82 even in the warmer weather in Texas?  
Again, I am just trying to learn why some seem to do fine at that temp while mine did not thrive and other experienced keepers suggest warmer water as well for growing out juvies. Would really appreciate your thoughts on this"

I do not follow advice Lemming like, I do not believe in the term "Expert" or "Celebrity!"  I gather information & make my own decisions, in this case my findings are to keep my Discus at the higher temperature & it seems to work well with my fish.
As of July this year I had not kept fish for 30 years & never Discus, I now have a tank of 10 week old Discus fry & another pair were breeding in the first pictured tank earlier today.
So for me I'm doing something right!

As for links take a look at the sites I listed also take a look at the specialist breeder & retailer sites on the internet for information.


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

Any fish eats more at higher temperatures..no exception...It speeds up their metabolism...
I can not argue about the effect of different temperatures on discus long term...one needs to keep two separate batches from the same litter at different temps in otherwise identical tanks or have many trials and errors over the span of years to see how they turn out..

From what I have read I remain unconvinced discus require those high temperatures...I must dig out some proper papers on the topic...if there are any out there.


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

zozo said:


> If i where a rich man.. Deedle didle deedle dum.


Ha.ha. I just spotted that. I love this musical


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## zozo (3 Jan 2017)

sciencefiction said:


> From what I have read I remain unconvinced discus require those high temperatures...I must dig out some proper papers on the topic...if there are any out there.


If you look up the average temperatures in the amazone region all year round they have 26°C to 32° day temps and oftenly pretty chilly 10°C night temps. Depending on where exactly you are  , amazone is a large region it can seasonaly differ quite a bit. I guess this affects also water temps..  But hey, i can imagine a Discus keeper beeing over conserned and maybe a bit paranoia sometimes. I regularly visit a local Discus breeder LFS. A gaze a lot at them with aw, but then i look at the prices starting with the regular dull ones at € 37.50 per fish..    If it were me? Me too i probably would sleep next to the tank with one eye open.. That's why i never had them as gorgious as they are, to much for me..  Not a fish to boldly experiment with..


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## sciencefiction (3 Jan 2017)

KipperSarnie said:


> The non-eater was spitting out food ( going on 3 weeks) was getting ready to treat for Hex until someone said to raise temp to 84F-86F.


They probably had Hex. At temps above 28C and 31 and above the parasite has a short survival period and eventually dies...Those fish may not have been healthy in the first place...

 And that poster is not seeing a very possible connection between hex and the subsequent higher temps. You can treat hex, ich and some other parasites,and even genuine non bacterial fungus infection with just raising the temp. But it has the opposite effect for some other allignments. When one doses antibiotics in a tank and sees a positive reaction... do they start keeping the fish in antibiotic treated water forever?


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## George Kulangara (4 Jan 2017)

I think the high temperatures are used to increase metabolism so that the fish can be beefed up to the jumbo sizes that are available today. I'm sure some breeders keep their fish in antibiotic treated water just to increase their survival rates. I know for sure some of the Fish shops that I've been to in India keep their expensive fish in antibiotic treated water. I keep mine at 27-29C in a planted tank. Both the fish and plants are fine. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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