# Another Co2 kit thread...



## Aqua360 (15 Feb 2016)

Hi all,

I'm new to the forums, sorry if this is going to be a question that you've read numerous times...I'm looking for a long term co2 kit for my 62 litre tank, ideally one that features all the standard parts such as regulator, bubble counter etc; but specifically a solenoid valve that i can use with a timer, with the kit able to work with at least a 500g cylinder, ideally 1 litre.

I've had a look at the site sponsors, specifically CO2 art; I've heard great things about their products, my confusion is really over sodastream, paintball cylinders; and whether i should avoid a certain type of system at my location (Paisley, Scotland).

Would really appreciate any opinions on this as I continue my research lol, this is my first venture into co2; after messing about with a disposable fluval 20 kit


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## Wisey (15 Feb 2016)

CO2Art are a good company, service is very good. They have had some problems recently with some of their dual stage regulators not maintaining pressure, this has happened to me with a replacement unit I got before new year, but they have been really good about it and have replaced it with an upgraded unit. The one I had problems with was the "Professional" version, I'm not sure if they also had issues with the "Advance Professional" version. I believe the issue was a QC problem with some of their parts they received from their supplier. Loads of people have bought these units without issue though and if you were to be unlucky, the service is good and they will resolve the problem.

A lot of people run from a Fire Extinguisher, as do I. When an FE gets to 10 years old, companies have to replace them. I e-mailed all the fire safety companies in my area, many were not interested and a few even gave me some safety lectures, but I found a small company that was happy to pass on 2 KG FE's for £5 each. That lasts 2-3 months on my 120 litre, so its a cheap way of running a CO2 system. I don't bother refilling them as Chubb wanted stupid money to refill them, I could have bought a brand new extinguisher cheaper online than having an old one refilled at Chubb in Aberdeen. I just take the empties to the local recycling centre that accepts cylinders.

Sodastream is an easy way to do it on a smaller tank, but I guess could get expensive on larger tanks as you will have to refill frequently.


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## Aqua360 (15 Feb 2016)

Wisey said:


> CO2Art are a good company, service is very good. They have had some problems recently with some of their dual stage regulators not maintaining pressure, this has happened to me with a replacement unit I got before new year, but they have been really good about it and have replaced it with an upgraded unit. The one I had problems with was the "Professional" version, I'm not sure if they also had issues with the "Advance Professional" version. I believe the issue was a QC problem with some of their parts they received from their supplier. Loads of people have bought these units without issue though and if you were to be unlucky, the service is good and they will resolve the problem.
> 
> A lot of people run from a Fire Extinguisher, as do I. When an FE gets to 10 years old, companies have to replace them. I e-mailed all the fire safety companies in my area, many were not interested and a few even gave me some safety lectures, but I found a small company that was happy to pass on 2 KG FE's for £5 each. That lasts 2-3 months on my 120 litre, so its a cheap way of running a CO2 system. I don't bother refilling them as Chubb wanted stupid money to refill them, I could have bought a brand new extinguisher cheaper online than having an old one refilled at Chubb in Aberdeen. I just take the empties to the local recycling centre that accepts cylinders.
> 
> Sodastream is an easy way to do it on a smaller tank, but I guess could get expensive on larger tanks as you will have to refill frequently.



they do offer a sodastream kit for tanks up to 250 litres, that looks quite good; also read these sodastream bottles are available quite commonly in supermarkets etc, but ive never seen them personally, do you know if they are quite common?


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## Wisey (15 Feb 2016)

Can't say I have ever seen them, at least not since I was about 8 years old and that was 30 years ago, but I have not been looking for them either. Sodastream website has a thing that tells you where you can get them:

https://www.sodastream.co.uk/

Do keep in mind that the system might work up to 250 litres, but it's probably a lot more expensive to run as you will be swapping those small bottles out more often.


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## Aqua360 (15 Feb 2016)

Wisey said:


> Can't say I have ever seen them, at least not since I was about 8 years old and that was 30 years ago, but I have not been looking for them either. Sodastream website has a thing that tells you where you can get them:
> 
> https://www.sodastream.co.uk/
> 
> Do keep in mind that the system might work up to 250 litres, but it's probably a lot more expensive to run as you will be swapping those small bottles out more often.



yeah, I'm definitely looking for long term economy; it's why I'm steering away from the disposable cylinders etc. Unless it makes sense to use them, I have no idea how long the CO2 would last me etc; I have a lot to learn lol


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## Wisey (15 Feb 2016)

Hopefully someone who has actually used Sodastream will chip in with some info. I would have a look at getting hold of FE's in your area and see what the chances are of getting a long term supply on the cheap.


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## Greenfinger2 (15 Feb 2016)

Hi Aqua, I use the Sodastream Co2 System from Co2Art Started off with a JBL 500g Co2 Bottle To refill £20  Sodastream To buy the first one £20 exchange £ 11 for 500g so cheaper to run.This lasts 3 months in my 30 cm Cube I do run High Co2 though Dropchecker stays lime green 24/7 I do not have fish or shrimp so not a problem.
If I were you I would go for FE its the cheapest way.

Photo of the system before Sodastream


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## X3NiTH (15 Feb 2016)

I use Sodastream as backup gas when I take my bottles to get refilled, usually I can't get my 1L tanks (CO₂Art) filled straight away, I sometimes have to wait a few days as only one person at the gas fillers I go to knows how to fill my bottles from CO₂Art (filled by weight and if a kilo goes in accidentally I may have an eventful ride home in the car) and if he's out on rounds then I don't need to panic. I have two Sodastream bottles just in case my Gas Man is on his annual leave so I'm never without gas!

A Sodastream bottle lasts me about 30 days if I have no leaks and I'm not aiming for a yellow drop checker. (50L system volume)

You can get Sodastream bottles from Asda, usually found in the aisle with all the kitchen utensils. It's £20 for a new bottle and when you empty it you bring the old bottle back and grab the replacement from the shelf which will then only cost £9 (take both bottles to till, they need to scan labels on both for you to get the discount). If they're charging £20 for a refill the cashier is scanning the barcodes wrong, there's a knack to doing it, the Magenta barcode on the empty bottle is what triggers the discount.

There has been a few occasions recently at Asda when there has been a third off offer on the new bottles for which the refills are discounted also but an even better deal and only cost £5! (taps the cash in his back pocket and whistles a tune).


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## X3NiTH (15 Feb 2016)

Just seen Greenfinger2 CO₂ usage, wow I seem to appear to have more leaks than the Titanic, can't seem to find them though, well at least I found the one coming from the screw fitting of my inline that hissed at me.


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## Greenfinger2 (15 Feb 2016)

X3NiTH said:


> Just seen Greenfinger2 CO₂ usage, wow I seem to appear to have more leaks than the Titanic, can't seem to find them though, well at least I found the one coming from the screw fitting of my inline that hissed at me.



Hi X3niTH,Just a Though, Have you used soppy water to find the leaks


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## X3NiTH (15 Feb 2016)

Greenfinger2 said:


> Hi X3niTH,Just a Though, Have you used soppy water to find the leaks



Loads of times, never find anything, possibly intermittent, soap and wiggle test shows up nothing, all leaks I have ever found have been either from the regulator (leaky bottle stem) or from inlines, first inline (Intense brand) had a slow releasing pressure crack on one side and the new UP one recently that hissed worked its way loose at the cleaning access screw threads despite me using gas tape on the threads, just tightened it up a bit more and the leak stopped (granted I did use the mole grips to get a good purchase and turn tighter until the fear of it cracking on me took over). I'm currently at 25days on 700g filled 1L bottles, that's including discovering the loose nut 1 week in on the fresh bottle.

I'm using a 20" reactor that gives me 100% CO₂ dissolution. Worst usage so far is 600g in 10 days (was testing 24/7 gas at this point so time period for gas was doubled, but there was no gas in pH drop (pH drop of 2) phase which is 2 hours of injection daily from above atmos equilibrium, topping up doesn't require much more than one or two 10 minute gas on periods per hour. This poor use coincided after a tank gut and rinsed and reused Fluval Stratum was used as substrate, any KH it had absorbed over the previous 18months+ use was released over the week, KH at start was <1 (not tested at time as there was no deviation from original routine), by the end of the week it was up at 12+, drop checker was yellow all week, there were no canaries (fish) in the tank to warn me of the over gassing, pH was running on controller set to pH5.1. Stem plants were wiped out (apparent problems with leaves going glassy, the day before I found the KH up above 12), first initial response was to drop the lights down from 50% total output down to 20% (which I later found out (a lot later) after sorting things out was below the LCP for Buce and above the LCP for BBA). My Buce continue to struggle despite my efforts, they keep growing and just when they look like they are beginning to thrive again the new young growth just catastrophically melt, it's so frustrating, flipping Java fern thrives even after almost being wiped out in the KH debacle.

I stopped fretting over how much CO₂ I was using a long while ago, just want to ensure there's more than enough consistently going in to make sure the drop checker stays a nice 30ppm shade of green all day from before lights on to lights off, if it changes to yellow then I have warning that the KH has climbed (still no canaries in the tank although the snails from the tank beside have found this tank again, aargh).


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## PARAGUAY (15 Feb 2016)

Hello Aqua360 , On  what you describe the D-D 500/600 Freshwater Set as all need to start,I use one on a 200 litre,D-D have a good troubleshooting section section too if you have issues or questions.


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## Aqua360 (15 Feb 2016)

Thanks a lot for these responses, really giving me a good idea 

I'm very tempted by the sodastream...if I can get 3 months for roughly £10 once the bought bottles new are factored in etc, that is very enticing to me, especially with the convenience of buying them at local supermarkets.

I'm going to drop by tesco tonight, I'll definitely be looking for these  

Does anyone else have experiences of how long a 500g sodastream would last on a 60litre tank? I realise its pretty variable, but even if I could get 2 months on one bottle, I'd definitely go that route


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## Greenfinger2 (15 Feb 2016)

Hi a 500g Sodastream Should last a couple of months if you are not running too high Co2. This is just a guess though .


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## Soilwork (16 Feb 2016)

I have just set up a soda stream system using the co2 art advance regulator.  I bought 2 cylinders at £20 each so I could alternate.  The first bottle lasted 3 days but I had a bit of a mare setting it up and lost some gas.  The second bottle lasted 3 days.  I have checked for leaks using proper leak detector spray and found nothing.  There is another fault with this reg in that the high pressure gauge does not respond but the low pressure gauge goes up to around 40psi.  I have emailed co2art and they are going to send me a replacement but are adamant I check all avenues for leaks.  Having read this I am now wondering if this is part of the batch fault problem described earlier.  I have wasted £40 of gas so far and wish I'd have gone FE but that is no reflection on the system as for the 3 days it lasted it worked ok.

Does anyone know how much a full sodastream bottle should weigh? I've read problems with refills before also and the boxes and bottles I got from Argos look a little beaten so I don't trust them 100% at the moment but I need to confirm the reg is working before I go accusing Argos.


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## Greenfinger2 (16 Feb 2016)

Hi Soilwork, Well I have just weighed 2 new bottles one is 1kg 242g the other 1kg 197g missing 45g somewhere maybe the bottles weight are different ?? Have written,it on the boxs now so I can keep a check on this


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## Soilwork (16 Feb 2016)

Thanks greenfinger2 perhaps you could weigh an empty cylinder then deduct the weight to calculate the weight of the actual contents That would be good  also I'm guessing the 2Kg FE is actually 2kg as a whole or is it referring to contents only?


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## X3NiTH (16 Feb 2016)

The full soda stream bottle I have weighs 1.218kg. A 2kg FE is the weight of the gas content.


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## Soilwork (16 Feb 2016)

Thanks.  Really wish I'd have weighed mine now. I wonder if co2art would admit there was a fault with the faulty regulator and refund me the cost of the gas? By the time I've filled the two empty ones back up that will be £60 on gas for a grand total of 6 days co2 injection.  Not a bad return  

What other options are there after soda and FE cylinders?


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## X3NiTH (16 Feb 2016)

You'll find that whatever container the CO₂ gas is stored in is that 99% of the problems with leaks happens after the bottle valve. 

The remaining 1% for me is that on one occasion I have had a full bottles burst disc go pop while I was sitting next to it, 1kg of gas gone in less than 10 seconds which was quite exciting, not a soda stream bottle but CO₂Arts 1L bottle, my gas man says the bottle is pressure rated to hold 1kg but we think the safety burst discs are rated below this. 1L of CO₂ is about 600g, we are cautiously filling and have managed 700g without issue, he doesn't have spare burst discs that fit, he looked before I even asked that question so if another disc goes the bottle is rendered useless, hence only one guy in the shop can fill these bottles which is why I'm using soda stream bottle for any interim period. 

CO₂Art replaced that bottle for me without question, they were really good about it!

My FE refillers can get me a 2kg rated bottle that's not a fire extinguisher but has a screw valve on top like CO₂Arts 1L bottles, cost quoted was about £50, so if we ever trash another safety disc (by slowly working up the fill weight) I know I have another alternative to head for, my other half has banned me misusing a FE so I'm stuck with bottles that either have valves built in or of small volume (soda stream).


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## Wisey (16 Feb 2016)

Soilwork said:


> I have just set up a soda stream system using the co2 art advance regulator.  I bought 2 cylinders at £20 each so I could alternate.  The first bottle lasted 3 days but I had a bit of a mare setting it up and lost some gas.  The second bottle lasted 3 days.  I have checked for leaks using proper leak detector spray and found nothing.  There is another fault with this reg in that the high pressure gauge does not respond but the low pressure gauge goes up to around 40psi.  I have emailed co2art and they are going to send me a replacement but are adamant I check all avenues for leaks.  Having read this I am now wondering if this is part of the batch fault problem described earlier.  I have wasted £40 of gas so far and wish I'd have gone FE but that is no reflection on the system as for the 3 days it lasted it worked ok.
> 
> Does anyone know how much a full sodastream bottle should weigh? I've read problems with refills before also and the boxes and bottles I got from Argos look a little beaten so I don't trust them 100% at the moment but I need to confirm the reg is working before I go accusing Argos.



The batch fault that I mentioned is to do with working pressure not being maintained. The issue occurs when you set working pressure and then over hours and days that pressure slowly drops. I was still getting delivery of CO2 throughout this period, but the rate was falling off as the pressure reduced therefore I was not hitting the lime green DC. There was talk on the planted tank thread of there being a non-visible leak around the working pressure dial, but I can't confirm this. I had the problem with the regulator running for over a week and my FE was not emptied, the leak was minimal if there at all. If you lost the entire lot in days and yourhigh pressure gauge is not reading anything, that sounds like a totally different issue. I have to say that does sound more like a leak. I did get a dodgy high pressure gauge fail which CO2 art replaced, but that was an obvious failure and leak, the black cap was ejected, CO2 could be heard escaping and there was ice all over the gauge. Check out my journal linked below for more details.


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## Soilwork (16 Feb 2016)

Thanks for both replies (even though this is not my thread, I feel so cheeky ) xenith.  I'm glad I wasn't there to hear that pop! And I do t blame your other half there. 

Wisey thanks.  It's a strange one.  I hope it's not me doing something silly.  Only place I didn't spray was the bubble counter joints. The needle valve only initially only takes minute adjustment to get one bubble per second which would suggest I'm not losing that much pressure.  I'm wondering if it is a high internal leak on the high pressure side but then I figured that would be audible.

Co2art have just sent me a replacement in the post so time will tell.  Argos only had 4 bottles in stock so I'll be taking a third now haha! If it turns out the reg is faulty should I pursue a reimbursement or ask for some store credit or just leave it?


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## Aqua360 (17 Feb 2016)

It's now clear to me that sodastream would cost me far more over time...the only positive really is the ease of obtaining cylinders, as opposed to having to go and get cylinders filled up.

Do the sodastream adapters experience more problems vs the regular co2 cylinders?

on the co2art website, they offer a standard 'advance' kit for £87.

If i was going sodastream, I'd go for the advanced kit as well to get the better adapter, but that comes in at £99.

Decisions decisions! In the interim, I've contacted the aquaponics centre in Glasgow, to find out if they supply cylinders and/or refill them. If i could obtain a 1.5kg cylinder easily enough, I'd probably just go that route


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## Soilwork (17 Feb 2016)

The adaptor is well made and has a new style tap that minimises gas loss on installation (that was a problem with the old one) the kit is sound (when it doesn't leak) I went for the £99 so I had a choice of whether or not to go sodastream.  I like someone else's idea of having a sodastream as a back up when refilling the main cylinder.

Bare in mind the price varies also depending on diffuser size.


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## jagillham (17 Feb 2016)

If you have the room and a handy local supplier, can be easiest just to run 2x FE.

My local guy refills 2.5kg for £10 / 5kg for £20. I have the other sat in the shed, so once it has run out I've got a couple months to get around to visiting him before the next one runs out.


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## Aqua360 (17 Feb 2016)

Soilwork said:


> The adaptor is well made and has a new style tap that minimises gas loss on installation (that was a problem with the old one) the kit is sound (when it doesn't leak) I went for the £99 so I had a choice of whether or not to go sodastream.  I like someone else's idea of having a sodastream as a back up when refilling the main cylinder.
> 
> Bare in mind the price varies also depending on diffuser size.



Can I ask if you've had the system running a while? Or if the problems have been with a new purchase?

Good to find out how long a sodastream cylinder is lasting people on their tank sizes


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## Aqua360 (17 Feb 2016)

jagillham said:


> If you have the room and a handy local supplier, can be easiest just to run 2x FE.
> 
> My local guy refills 2.5kg for £10 / 5kg for £20. I have the other sat in the shed, so once it has run out I've got a couple months to get around to visiting him before the next one runs out.



if i do go the cylinder route, i'd like to avoid a FE; purely on aesthetics as it will be sitting next to the cabinet in my bedroom, no room underneath


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## Soilwork (17 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> Can I ask if you've had the system running a while? Or if the problems have been with a new purchase?
> 
> Good to find out how long a sodastream cylinder is lasting people on their tank sizes



It a new purchase.  Setting the replacement up tomorrow when I can get some gas.



Aqua360 said:


> if i do go the cylinder route, i'd like to avoid a FE; purely on aesthetics as it will be sitting next to the cabinet in my bedroom, no room underneath



The aesthetics are what put me off too. I do have room under the cabinet though so it's still not out of the equation for me.  I think it's worth paying the extra for the adaptor just incase.


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## Aqua360 (18 Feb 2016)

Soilwork said:


> It a new purchase.  Setting the replacement up tomorrow when I can get some gas.
> 
> 
> 
> The aesthetics are what put me off too. I do have room under the cabinet though so it's still not out of the equation for me.  I think it's worth paying the extra for the adaptor just incase.



Cool, look forward to hearing how you get on; best of luck!


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## Soilwork (19 Feb 2016)

I pressurised the new reg last night and closed it off from the bottle. High pressure gauge responds as it should but I left it overnight to check for leaks.   High pressure gauge was 0 this morning.  I found the leak with some spray around the high pressure gauge thread.  Just done another full turn on the gauge that seems to have stopped it.  I have now pressurised again and plugged the solenoid in needle valve is closed obviously so now I'm testing for leaks at the solenoid and beyond.  More hopeful this time.


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## Greenfinger2 (19 Feb 2016)

Hi Soilworks, Glad you got it sorted. Would it not of been better to check for leaks before going bed? 

Hope the Co2 works from now on good luck


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## Soilwork (19 Feb 2016)

Thanks green finger.  Probably yes but I was busy last night. Went to watch sum41 in Manchester.  Didn't get back till late. Off today and all next week now so hopefully will be able to play around with it a bit more


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## Wisey (19 Feb 2016)

Solenoid and needle valve should be open when you first pressurise the regulator otherwise the bottle pressure can damage the high pressure gauge.


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## Soilwork (19 Feb 2016)

Thanks for the advice Wisey.  The co2art tutorial does not mention this.  I work in medical gases and repair/service regulators often.  The regulator should really be constructed to handle the initial input pressure.  So far so good.


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## Wisey (19 Feb 2016)

I had a high pressure gauge on a brand new reg go on me. Was fine when I set it up, but at some point overnight or during the next day it went, the black cap was ejected from the top (still not found it, must be behind or under furniture somewhere!), gas was escaping and there was ice all over the gauge. 

When I got in touch with support they checked whether I had the solenoid and needle valve open. There is something about it in the instructions on their site.


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## xim (19 Feb 2016)

Wisey said:


> Solenoid and needle valve should be open when you first pressurise the regulator otherwise the bottle pressure can damage the high pressure gauge.



They should be open while you're adjusting working pressure 
because flow rate can affect the working pressure, especially 
if the regulator is not a high-flow type.


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## Soilwork (19 Feb 2016)

You are right, in the manuals on the app it says in bold to follow this procedure yet in the video tutorials it doesn't mention this at all and even instructs you to close the needle valve and solenoid during the leak test then pressurising the regulator.


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## Soilwork (21 Feb 2016)

So far so good.  No leaks and finally my plants are on the road to good health. I'll update when it runs out.  Approaching 2 bps at present but may need more.  Oh both new co2 bottles weighed roughly 1.2kg


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