# Sam's 4ft nightmare, I mean journal



## Themuleous (8 Nov 2008)

Hi All 

I'm not sure what the issue is so thought 'general discussions' was probably the right place!!

Right, I really cant work out my 4ft.  I'll admit that to start with the flow really wasn't what it should be but hopefully Ive sorted that now.  The HC is at least staying alive having adding the eheim pump.

Quick run down of the tank

120x45x45
Eheim 2080 filter 1700lph
Eheim compact+ 3000lph closed loop for flow
lighting - 1x54w osram lumilux skylight 880, 1x54w sylania growlux on for 8hrs.  I had been running 2x osram lumilux skylight (three in total for 6hrs) but I cut it back to two tubes and increased into the 8hr.
Ferts - 20ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4 three times a week.  40ml AE trace three times a week.  50% water change with rain/tap water
Akadama substrate
Think that's most things.

My problem seems to be that the plants grow (even pearl under the 2x54w!), but the leaves very quickly turn brown.  The HM shows this really clearly but all except the java fern are doing it. DC is green to yellowish.


















Any thoughts greatly appreciated!

Sam


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## Egmel (8 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumpped*

Odd, it looks like what happened to a batch of my plants when I tried to de-snail them using an ammonia bath (which was obviously too strong).  It can't be that though as you have fish alive and well in there.  My next thought along those lines  would be too low a pH but your shrimp seem fine so I'm guessing it's something else.

Do you have other tanks which you use the same tap/rain water mix and if so are they suffering the same thing?


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## Themuleous (8 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumpped*

No cant said I do, the other tanks are RO and tap.  But it seems really strange that rain water would do this?  I filter the rainwater through carbon before it goes into the tank.

Sam


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## ceg4048 (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Hi Sam,
             Deformation and discoloration almost always suggests a CO2 issue, despite the dropchecker readings. You could test this by adding Excel for a few weeks. Use process of elimination by deleting the rainwater and using RO or tap for a few weeks in lieu. Circulation and flow patterns may also be an issue. Vary the outflow configuration/distribution methods to test this.

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Thanks Clive.  I'll whack up the co2 and dose excel for a week or two.  The process of elimination method does take a while and I'm just to impatient!   Just hope it works!

Do you think I should increase the lighting back up to 3x54w?

Sam


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## ceg4048 (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Hi Sam,
              While it's a possibility that the lighting levels are below the LCP (Light Compensation Point), normally this is last on the list of possibilities. The reason being is that the plants are in fact growing by your own admission. This indicates therefore that photo energy levels are above LCP. If you were below LCP there would be no growth at all. Additionally, I would restrict the changes to one thing at a time otherwise it would be a shotgun approach and you won't learn anything. Besides, if it is a CO2 problem won't upping the light make matters worse? You know that I always suspect CO2 uptake first so I'm biased in this direction, but there is a remote possibility of a toxic agent in your rainwater not removed by your carbon filtration (highly doubtful but worth investigating).

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Good point Clive.  The java fern in the tank is going very well, so I doubt its something in the rainwater but worth a try if the co2 isn't the issue.

Will leave the lighting as it 

Thanks greatly

Sam


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## Amoeba (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

In case of slow uptake you may end up with 60ppm NO3 and 6ppm PO4 in the water. High NO3 together with soft water may cause problems. I would reduce dosing to 1/3. Add 10ppm K as K2SO4 and 5ppm Mg as MgSO4 when changing water.
Ideally try to achieve 4:1 Ca:Mg.
What are the params of your tap water. What's the RO:tap ratio for your water changes?


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## Nick16 (9 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

if the drop checker is yellow, then there is too much co2. green is perfect and greeny blue is to little. when it is fully yellow its about 70ppm and that becomes almost poisonous to fish and plants as there is too much co2 in the water. (you need 30ppm)


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## ceg4048 (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				Amoeba said:
			
		

> In case of slow uptake you may end up with 60ppm NO3 and 6ppm PO4 in the water. High NO3 together with soft water may cause problems...


Hi, There is very little data which indicates any correlation between high PO4/NO3/low GH and poor plant health.



			
				Amoeba said:
			
		

> I would reduce dosing to 1/3. Add 10ppm K as K2SO4 and 5ppm Mg as MgSO4 when changing water.
> Ideally try to achieve 4:1 Ca:Mg.


Additionally, there are no requirements in EI dosing for any ratios. Unlimited nutrient availability under the eutrophic conditions of EI renders all ratios irrelevant. Ratios only have any relevance when there is a shortage or limitation.



			
				Nick16 said:
			
		

> if the drop checker is yellow, then there is too much co2. green is perfect and greeny blue is to little. when it is fully yellow its about 70ppm and that becomes almost poisonous to fish and plants as there is too much co2 in the water. (you need 30ppm)


Dropcheckers are a useful but very limited tool and it cannot determine actual CO2 uptake. I agree that one should be careful when increasing the injection rate though and if injection rate or Excel increase results in improvement this likely indicates a flow distribution problem.

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

For once I agree with Ceg.

With DC colours it is possible to go into yellow without harming the fish but I would not suggest it for the inexperienced.  better to stay lime green unless you are absolutely sure what you are doing.

AC


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Well I came down stairs this morning to 11 dead tetras.  Gutted.  The DC is still saying lime green and I've run it well into the yellow before without mass deaths.  I did dose excel as well, the â€˜initialâ€™ dose rate after the 50% water change.

Could that or the combination of that with the higher than normal co2 kill fish?  I've 3x dosed excel before with no ill effects. 

This tanks got we well and truly baffled.

Sam


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## JamesC (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				Themuleous said:
			
		

> Ferts - 20ppm NO3 and 2ppm PO4 three times a week.  40ml AE trace three times a week.  50% water change with rain/tap water


Sam, IMHO your dosing is seriously way too high. You're dosing 60ppm NO3 per week with 50% water changes which means that your tank is running at 120ppm without even taking the bioload into account. With a heavily planted tank under high lighting you may use up to about 3ppm NO3 daily, but with your tank I'd be suprised if it was 1ppm. This means you are running well over 100ppm NO3 and the recommended levels are around 20ppm. Also soft water is a lot less forgiving with high fert levels.

I'd be surprised if rain water was causing a problem with the plants.

James


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Ok James, thanks for the advice.  I'll cut it right back to 10ppm or do you think 5ppm NO3 x3 a week would be better?  And the same with the PO4, down to 1ppm each dose?

Sam

EDIT - the only fish affected where my silver tip tetras.  Most of the rest of the shoal was gasping when I got down there but interesting the ottos didnâ€™t see bothered by it.  In the past when I've had high CO2 the ottos have also been gasping.  Could silver tips be particularly susceptible/intolerant of high CO2?  I donâ€™t recall seeing them that often (if at all?) in high CO2 tanks?


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## Egmel (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

I wonder if the plants use the Excel fist leaving a higher than normal concentration of CO2 in the water.


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Perhaps, but I only added the excel last night just before the lights went off, so dont think that s the case here.

Thanks for the idea though, it all helps! 

Sam


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## ceg4048 (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Sam, sorry to hear about the losses mate. The CO2 levels were adjusted too high for the tetras but I haven't seen evidence that the combination of NO3 and soft water makes fish any more susceptible to CO2 toxicity. The gasping is clearly an indication of CO2 stress. It's hard to predict which fish will be affected more acutely. Adding the Excel alone without injection rate increase will effectively add available CO2 without the risk of acidosis.

Cheers,


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Yeh really disappointed as I've never had it happen before.  I've reduced the level back down and will dose the excel as planned.  See what happens.  

Thanks Clive.


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## Amoeba (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi, There is very little data which indicates any correlation between high PO4/NO3/low GH and poor plant health.


It is correct if the levels of NO3 are at EI level (~20ppm). For 60ppm+ NO3 it may be a problem. I've observed that in my tank.



			
				ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Additionally, there are no requirements in EI dosing for any ratios. Unlimited nutrient availability under the eutrophic conditions of EI renders all ratios irrelevant. Ratios only have any relevance when there is a shortage or limitation.


For many plants extra Mg is not required. It is beneficial for more demanding plants, like Rotalias. But high levels of Mg will block K. Also try dosing 20ppm NO3 and 20ppm PO4 and see the results.
EI is based on more than just "Unlimited nutrient availability ".


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## beeky (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

This touches on something I've been thinking about recently regarding nutrient "poisoning". I'm not talking about fish, but in the same way humans might get Vitamin A poisoning if they eat 50 carrots a day, 365 days a year, do plants suffer if the nutrients are too high? If the plant has a lower concentration of nutrients than the surrounding water, would they OD?


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Interesting idea.  Perhaps like humans though they are able to control what they take in?  You could surround a person in carrots but they wouldn't _have_ to eat them.

Sam


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## JamesC (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

With terrestial plants there are definetely problems with overdosing, but with aquatic plants things are a lot more difficult to determin. Estimative Index followers will go blue in the face defending the idea that high nutrient levels don't cause a problem, but there are plenty of examples to show that in fact there are problems with high levels of nutrients, especially with soft water.

Stick with normal EI dosing and you should be fine for nearly every every type of tank. Only with excessively high light and high plant mass tanks you might need to dose more. Dosing 2x or 4x EI is crazy unless you do 80% water changes twice a week.

Just my thoughts
James


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Thanks for the input James   happy to hear everyone's thoughts, esp if it helps sort out this tank!!!

Sam


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

So I _really_ only need to be dosing 5ppm NO3 and 1ppm PO4 three times a week?

Sam


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## JamesC (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Yes, I'd think that should be fine for your tank. That equates to 15ppm NO3 and 3ppm PO4 weekly.

James


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## Themuleous (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Right, nice one.  Thanks James. I'll give that a go.  Perhaps a 50% WC this eve to get the levels down a bit as well, they could be through the roof by the sounds of things!

Sam


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## GreenNeedle (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				Amoeba said:
			
		

> ceg4048 said:
> 
> 
> 
> > EI is based on more than just "Unlimited nutrient availability ".



Noone ever said it was.  EI is based on excess supply not unlimited supply.  We don't suggest dumping a huge amount in and then not worrying about algae.  We suggest adding an excess so that nothing ever runs defficient!!!


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## GreenNeedle (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				beeky said:
			
		

> This touches on something I've been thinking about recently regarding nutrient "poisoning". I'm not talking about fish, but in the same way humans might get Vitamin A poisoning if they eat 50 carrots a day, 365 days a year, do plants suffer if the nutrients are too high? If the plant has a lower concentration of nutrients than the surrounding water, would they OD?



I think you'll more likely find that the theory you use of over eating of one thing each day is one which humans and indeed animals are capable of.  I would say a plant is unable to choose which nutrient it feeds more on.  If they are all supplied in adequate proportion then it will take the relevant amount of each.  If 1 nutrient is overdosed and others underdosed then it will stop utilising the overdosed nutrient when it runs out of the underdosed!!!

More like a human having a balanced spread of food but then eating far too much of it.  Still eating a balanced diet but they will get obese.  A plant is not caged like a human is in a skeleton.  We grow to a certain height and then stop at which point if our intake exceeds our usage we grow outward.  

A plant is not limited by height or width so if the light and all nutrients (including C) are available they can keep on 'eating' and just get taller and wider.  They will however not keep going all day.  There is a point where they have had enough for the day and stop.

The problem due to them stopping when they have had enough is that if we have been adding huge amounts more than they need for their day (EI is excess but not huge and then is reset weekly) then over time there will be huge amounts left in the water which can then cause problems to fish etc.

Using the standard EI parameters should as James says with virtually all tanks cause no problems. 

There will however always be rare exceptions to the rule.

I personally lean dose daily under low light for no other reason than it works well for me at approx 2ppm NO3, 0.2ppm PO4, 0.2ppm K and 0.3ppm Mg plus trace of course. 

AC


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## ceg4048 (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Hey James, I guess I'm a crazy blue faced guy because I just don't see the problems.  :? In fact I'm not quite sure which problems actually occur. My most recent tank gets 2X-3X EI dosing and the only problems I got are overgrowth. This tank has hard water though and yes, it's a huge biomass and I do a large water change (70%) once a week. I have done 3X EI in this tank before on a previous setup using pure RO and I didn't have any problems other than the normal issues of stupidity such as running out of CO2 and not noticing, or forgetting to turn the lights off. 

Again, when one drives a tank to extreme growth rates, then water changes - and therefore cleanliness are a top priority. If one allows the tank to accumulate organic waste then yes there will be problems- but that's an issue in every tank, not just heavily dosed tanks. Other than that though I have never seen issues of nutrient toxicity. 

Cheers,


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## scottturnbull (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

If everything but the fern is affected, maybe it's a substrate issue. Plant some fast growers, half in the substrate, the other half in rockwool in net pots. If the ones in the substrate show the same signs, and the potted ones don't, you have an indication. On the other hand, if the potted plant does the same as the others, you can rule out substrate. At least you'll have eliminated something.


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## Garuf (10 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

You know what I think you could be onto something there! I remember Dan's tank with akadama the plants did much the same thing, blacked out on the stems and algaefied.


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## Themuleous (11 Nov 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Ive got akadama in my nano and I cant stop the HC growing!

I guess all this just goes to show that there is no silver bullet, its about try and see.

Thanks for all the advice, I'll see what I can do.  Im sure I'll get there in the end.  After all it only took two years for me to work out my nano! 

Sam


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## Themuleous (16 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

For those of you that followed this thread, I though I would update you on the current state of play.

Following the advice, I did a few things.  Reduced dosing to 5ppm NO3 & 1ppm PO4 3x a week.  I also did several large water changes to get the background levels down to sensible levels.

I also set the eheim 3000+ pump to run 24/7, previously it was running from 15mins before lights on, to 15mins after lights out.

I also dosed excel on and off but not consistently enough to have any lasting benefit I don't think.  I did discover that overdosing the excel killed my silver tip tetras rather than the CO2 gassing them, Ive lots 36 in total and one cherry shrimp.  I think my mistake was to calculate it on the basis of volume of water using the tank dimensions, which gives circa 250lt, when in fact the water volume is actually more like 200lt due to the substate.

Anyway, hope this is of some use to people 

As you can see the HC is loving it!  Growing like mad now, probably a bit too fast!  No brown stems at all on any of the plants 














Sam


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## JamesC (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Nice one Sam. Glad you got it sorted.

James


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## Garuf (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Full tank shot! 
I'm sure it's better than you were making out!


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## Themuleous (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Im sure its not!  I'll see what I can sort this evening 

Once the HC has properly grown in, I'll rip it all apart (as you do) and redo the rock work, which is shocking at the moment.

Sam


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## Garuf (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Did you steal Jimmy's door stop then?


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## GreenNeedle (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*

Glad you got it sorted.  Goes to show how dangerous overdosing Excel/Easycarbo can be to livestock!!!

Maybe we should stick to TBs suggestion of patience and dosing the recommended for a longer period.

AC


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## Themuleous (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				Garuf said:
			
		

> Did you steal Jimmy's door stop then?


No I didnt in the end, too heavy.  But I did take a fair few of the rocks from the crate.



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> Glad you got it sorted.  Goes to show how dangerous overdosing Excel/Easycarbo can be to livestock!!!
> Maybe we should stick to TBs suggestion of patience and dosing the recommended for a longer period.



Yeh. Strange thing is I've overdose all my other tanks, without any issues. I guess the substrate displacement has more of an effect in this tank due to the slope, it much be 4-5" deep at the back.

Sam


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## beeky (17 Dec 2008)

*Re: Completely stumped*



			
				SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I think you'll more likely find that the theory you use of over eating of one thing each day is one which humans and indeed animals are capable of.  I would say a plant is unable to choose which nutrient it feeds more on.  If they are all supplied in adequate proportion then it will take the relevant amount of each.  If 1 nutrient is overdosed and others underdosed then it will stop utilising the overdosed nutrient when it runs out of the underdosed!!!
> 
> More like a human having a balanced spread of food but then eating far too much of it.  Still eating a balanced diet but they will get obese.  A plant is not caged like a human is in a skeleton.  We grow to a certain height and then stop at which point if our intake exceeds our usage we grow outward.
> 
> ...



Apologies for being a bit slow in catching up with this.

My analogy earlier was assuming that the plant couldn't help but ingest the nutrients, i.e. they didn't have a choice of whether to use them or not, osmosis meant that the higher concentration of nutrients in the water caused those nutrients to flow into the plant. I don't know if this is possible, just summising.


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## Themuleous (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Well I thought I have everything sorted.  But its happening again.  The old leaves are turning brown again.  As you can see...










I've done nothing different from the last set of photos when I had thought I'd finally sorted it. I'm getting rather chuffed off with this now.

My two thoughts are that it could be either the cold water that I'm using from refills, from my rainwater butt which must be 1-2C at the moment, but I add 20lt of hot water from the tap gradually during the process to counter the cold and the tank only drops a few degrees as a result of the water change.  So this possibility seems unlikely and is what Ive always been doing.  My second thought would be that the lighting level is too high.  I have reverted to 2x54w tubes, as the 3x54w could be forcing the plants to work to hard and so the old leaves burn out quickly.  This also seems odd as its affected all the plants in the same way and apparently at the same rate.

My only other thoughts are that it has to be something that affects the whole tank, as all the plants are affected.  Could it be a toxin?  I don't recall washing my hands before doing a water change or anything like that?

ANY thoughts or help would be really really appreciated,  as I said, I'm getting rather annoyed with this tank and planted tanks.  It not meant to be this difficult and its not as if I don't put in the time and attention (rant over).

Thanks

Sam


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## aaronnorth (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

How are you diffusing CO2 into the water, and is it being oushed around the whole tank?


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## Egmel (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I'm sure I've asked this before but are you using the rain water on any other planted tank?  While you know the parameters of your rain water you don't necessarily know what the locals are pumping into the air on any given day!


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## George Farmer (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Are you using EI and rainwater, Sam?


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## Garuf (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Still looks exactly the same as Dan's tank that used akadama. I think it's something about it? What I can't be sure though.


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## Themuleous (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

CO2 - diffusion via glass diffuser.  DC in the green/yellow range most of the time.  Plenty of flow in the tank thanks to my 3000lph powerhead!

Yep using rain water and EI.  I'm not using rainwater in any of my other tanks.  Could it really be that?  Its a sod if it is.

My other thought is that the CO2 has been in the greeny blue range for a week or so, could 'lower' CO2 do this?  Seems unlikely also.

Thanks for the help guys.

Sam


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## Garuf (2 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I think it's 2 fold, co2 and a possible toxin in your rainwater. I'd switch to a reactor and see if it helps then I'd ditch the rainwater and see what the results are.


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## jay (7 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Really don't see any point in using rain water.
If you get differing readings in the DC, then you have fluctuating Co2. The only difference should be from yellow/greenish  with lights on after a couple of hours and yellow before lights on. Don't assume fluctuating Co2 is because of flow from filter or powerhead. Your injection method (regulator?) could have problems.

Also, don't use water from the hot tap. If you need to raise the temperature of water for WC, then either let it stand to get to room temp, or get a small heater.


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## Themuleous (7 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Im using rain water as I have uber hard water and keep soft water fish.  RO water is hugely wasteful and I wanted to keep the amount of RO water I use to a minimum, that's all.  I'm an ecologist by profession!

I've used hot tap water for years, never affected the other tanks as far as I can tell.

Sam


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## jay (7 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*



			
				Themuleous said:
			
		

> Im using rain water as I have uber hard water and keep soft water fish.
> 
> Sam




I have all soft water fish too. Wild tetras, wild dwarf cichlids, all bred before in my tap water in my planted tank.
Unless you're looking to keep/breed wild discus, I've never really look to much into water softness.

If you insist on using rainwater, then (if you don't already) you could put a small, carbon filled filter into the container that you collect it in. Should clear up any nasties that it may be harbouring


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## Ed Seeley (7 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Like you Sam I like to keep soft water fish in soft water.  I think it might be your rainwater though!  How clean is the water butt and roof you're using to collect the rain water?  My water butt I used to use always held some sediment, dead insects and even bits of leaves and this breaking down must have been releasing tiny amounts of ammonia into the water.  Not enough to cause any problems with the fish I kept then, but maybe enough to cause issues with algae?  I'd try running it through a filter with carbon and Purigen in to get rid of anything in there.


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## Themuleous (7 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I run the rainwater through a huge 90cm pond carbon filter!!!! 



Thats whats so confusing about the problem, there doesn't seem to be any rhym or reason to it, but something must be causing it!

Sam


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## Themuleous (7 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Hi Ed,

Well due to the complete lack of rain recently I'm now forced to use RO and tap so I guess we'll find out if its the rainwater, I kind of hope it is, at least then I'll know what the problem is and the solution.

The water butt like yours has a bit of debris in it and the odd worm or two (goodness only knows how they got in there!) so its not clean _per se_.  It also has a big of a stagnant smell to is, but that's completely gone by the time its gone through the carbon filter.

The roof I'm not sure about as I haven't been up there to have a look as I don't have a ladder at the moment.  Even if its dirty is not like the rainwater sits up there for days before getting into the butt, so wouldn't have much time to pick up nasty thing.

Thanks for the comments/ideas, really appreciate it.  The odd thing is that the plants were doing great, and have suddenly starting going brown again, its all just a bit strange.  This kind of counts out the substrate, ferts and CO2. Who knows! 

Sam


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## Themuleous (13 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Well looks like it was indeed the rainwater.  Two weeks since the last water change with rainwater and the plants are recovering/recovered.  I've upped the lighting again to 3x54w and everything is pearling away.

This does leave two questions

i) What the hell is on my roof that is affecting the plants so badly?  I do live v close to RAF Brize Norton, aviation fuel?

ii) Why doesn't the massive carbon filter remove it?

Sam


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I reckon it's organics in the water caused by small particles decaying.  Your carbon filter won't remove that.  Can you put some purigen in the filter somehow to remove any traces of it?

I'd also give the water butt a really good clean and have some filter floss out of the water (above the water, maybe in the downpipe or the top of the water butt lid?) to intercept as much of the particles off the roof as you can before they get into the water butt.


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## Themuleous (13 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

The filter floss idea had crossed my mind.  I'll see what I can DIY.  It'll need cleaning pretty regularly as a fair bit seems to accumulate over the months.  I'll also give the butt a good clean.

To be honest, I'm kinda resigned to being back to Jerry cans of RO and tap water for water changes.  Its only around 100lt each week in total, so not too bad.

I might see if I can add a third RO membrane to my RO unit to reduce the waste water further.  The RO waste is the main reason I wanted to switch to rainwater in the first place.

Sam


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## beeky (14 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

You mentioned before that you were reducing the lights, can you completely discount that? Also, what about the temperature difference, would that still be as drastic now you're not using rainwater? I did wonder if leaves were being hit with 1-2C water then it could cause cell damage, which would be more noticeable at the tips.

If it is the rainwater, then maybe you have a dead pigeon (or two!) in your gutter, although I would have thought your fish would be suffering if that were the case.


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## JamesC (14 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

A long shot but is that long piece of clear tubing you use food grade and do you drain it after using, or flush it through before use?

James


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## Themuleous (14 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Hi Becky, thanks for your thoughts. I will stick with the RO water to eliminate the rainwater as being the issue.  If it happens again then it'll probably mean its the lighting, although that does seem odd.

It could be the temp of the water, but it didn't happen consistently and I've been using the rainwater all through the recent cold spell.  Also, the temp of the tank only drops to 18-20C.

James - to be honest I'm not sure, I got it from here http://www.kiowa.co.uk/Products/PVC_Hos ... r_PVC_Tube.  The website says its suitable for food use so would assume its OK.  I do drain it completely after use, but I dont flush it through, other than the first bit of water that goes through it between me hooking it all up and putting the end into the tank.

All in all, very puzzling.

Sam


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## Themuleous (26 Jan 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Well interesting things are happening.  Three weeks of using RO water and the plants are getting WORSE!!













This leads me to believe it is actually the 3x54w tubes that are the problem.  I'm going to run it with 2x54w and see what happens over the next few weeks, whilst also sticking with the RO water.

The only other thing to add is that the deformities are not 100% the same as previously, certainly the HC has been badly affect.  Perhaps its a combination of the rainwater and too much light?  Some of the HC has gone opaque which happened when I first set the tank up and the flow wasn't enough.  I guess its perhaps that the plants cant get enough CO2 that is the problem with the 3x52w tubes, rather than it being the extra light _per se_. I've started running the CO2 into the powerhead, so its nice and stable now and there are tiny bubbles everywhere!

Sam


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## JamesC (9 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Any update on this tank Sam?

James


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## Themuleous (11 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Hi James, sorry I missed this, I've been rather busy lately.  Thanks for the interest.

Basically no, the plants still look shocking.  I added some new HC and that just lost its leaves, with the new leaves quickly turning brown just like the other plants in the tank.  I'm certain its due to the light, so I've removed the legs and have hung the luminary another 3" higher than it was.  Perhaps I pushed the plants to hard under the 3x54w lighting for too long.  Its been over a month since I reduced it to 2x54w, but that's done little if anything.  I did add the new HC after reducing the lighting to two tubes, so it must be something that's wrong with the set up as it is.

Here are some photos as it is now.

This is the new HC, which has been in the tank for around 2 weeks.






He's the original stuff.









I only raised the lighting a few days ago so it still early days as to whether its helped.  I'm still using RO and tap.  

Would mulm affect the plants? there is quite a bit already.

I really have no idea whats going on.  

Sam


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## Themuleous (13 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Everyone else please feel free to chip in here and help me out as well!

Sam


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## a1Matt (13 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I'd love to chip in but not sure I can help!

I know if the plants are covered in dirt\mulm in my tank some do go brown, low lying\carpet plants are more susceptible to browning, I suspect as that is where the crud settles.    

I wouldn't like to say this is the sole cause though, either way I suppose a good clean up of all the mulm can not be a bad thing


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## Themuleous (13 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Haha thanks all the same Matt 

Sam


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## Themuleous (13 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Any one else got any ideas?  I'm getting desperate, dont make me say the 'M' word!

Sam


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## Ed Seeley (14 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I'm perplexed Sam.  What's the flow like in and around the HC?  Could the luml be building up in there a bit as the flow there isn't very high?


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## JamesM (14 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

First thing I'd do is cut the hc right back now that you've dropped the lighting. Are you dosing excel? hc loves that stuff.


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## Themuleous (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Total puzzler, hey?  See I'm not a crap aquascaper, I just cant get the plants to grow! 

The flow in the tank is very good, I can see the plants moving.  All the plants show the same symptoms, the HC is the worst but the HM and P.helferi do it as well.

I have cut the top off the HC at the front but it still the same.  Its barely growing at the moment.

Bloomin' annoying, I had the same trouble in my nano which is my I gave up on it after 2 years of not growing anything 

Sam


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## Mark Evans (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

your tap water dont contain cyanide does it?...  

no really, have you checked your water report for anything sinister?....

very strange mate, and i can only feel that its very disheartening, keep the faith


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## Themuleous (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Haha not that I know of!  I would have thought the fish would be more affected than the plants?  I have plants in my non-plant tanks and they are all fine.  Easy plants but no a sign of anything similar to this. I must admit I don't know of anyone else who has a hi light tank in the local area with decent plants.

Here's the report if you wouldn't mind having a look at it for me? I do use RO cut with tap so the concentrations in the tank will be less than those reported.

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/water-qual ... witney.pdf

The thing that makes me think its not the water is that I did in the early days grow the HC fine and the nano did manage one scape when the HC grow OK and I'm not doing anything different water wise now than then.

Yeh to be honest I'm rather chuffed off with it, the 4ft has cost goodness only knows how much and this is the result.  An oscar or two would be a darn sight easier to keep.

Thanks people, appreciate it.

Sam


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## Steve Smith (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Hey mate, I've just scanned through most of the thread and didn't see reference to any carbon alternatives.  I just wondered if you'd tried dosing something like Easy Carbo?


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## Themuleous (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

I did try excel but not very consistently as I managed to kill all the silver tip tetras with it.  You are right though I should try it.

Thanks for the help 

Sam


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## John Starkey (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Hi Sam,sorry to see you are still haveing troubles,i have to second what steve uk says,since i have been useing easy carbo my plants look really good and thats on top of 5bps 0f co2 ,give it a try mate,regards john.


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## Themuleous (15 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Cheers John, will do.  Anything is worth a try.

Sam


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## Themuleous (17 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Hi guys, 

I've had a thought.  Because the tank is open top the water level goes down quite a bit during the week, added to which I try to keep the outlet on the powerhead so that is just breaks the waters surface so that it clears the scum and also oxygenates the water.

All this means the CO2 is not 100% stable, it very rarely goes into the blue, but it goes range from yellow to dark green during the week.

This I wouldn't necessarily say is unstable (Maybe I'm wrong?) but could these changes in CO2 concentration affect the plants in the way it has?  It does seem a bit unlikely to me but worth a try.  The only way to stop this would be to have the outlet below the waters surface enough that it doesn't affect the waters surface at all, but I risk gassing the fish and the surface scum is a PITA.

Thanks.

Sam

PS - Its early days but having raised the light up a bit over the tank and the HC has got even worse


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## Steve Smith (17 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

It might be worth moving your drop checker about the tank over the next few days and see if you can find any dead spots?


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## Themuleous (17 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Yeh good idea, trouble is nothing grows (or at least very well) so dead spots are the least of my worries at the moment! 

Sam


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## beeky (18 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

As long as there's a gentle ripple in the surface of the water the oxygen exchange should be fine. I understand about breaking up the scum though. Perhaps the scum is also a symptom of the same problem? Not that that helps!!


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## beeky (18 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Looking back again I think mulm is the problem. Any kind of build up IME hows that the water isn't being circulated vigourously enough or the filter(s) aren't up to the job. If it settles on the leaves it will clog the pores.

How often do you have to clean the filter?


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## Themuleous (18 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Err I haven't yet, as its a huge 2080 and I have a very low stocking density.  I really much get it out and give it a clean though you are right.  

Cheers for the thoughts/advice 

Sam


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## Themuleous (23 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Quick update.

I spent over 4 hours yesterday giving everything a good clean in an effort to increase CO2 movement around the tank.  I must say the powerhead it noticeably more powerful than before now its clean (there was a surprising amount of junk when I took it apart).

I'm gonna up the CO2 slowly over the next few days keeping an eye on the fish to get it as high a possible.  I'm also doing excel as prescribed now too.  I had to take quite a bit of the HC out as it had detatched itself from the substrate and a large mat of it was wafting around in the current!! Most I binned but I've replanted a fair amount.

Time to leave it alone and see what happens over the next month or two.

Fingers crosses!

Sam

PS - Could a Mod please move this to the journals forum, I might as well keep it as my 'warts and all' journal, hopefully the pain and lessons I've been trough will be of help to some people


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## Themuleous (23 Mar 2009)

*Re: Completely stumped - the saga continues*

Thank you


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## Lisa_Perry75 (18 May 2009)

Hey Sam,

Hope things have improved for you?

Lisa -x-


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## Lisa_Perry75 (18 May 2009)

Oh and rather than using an RO machine, why don't you try one of those in-line filters with no wastage? It won't be as pure as RO but doesn't need to be for freshwater?

Btw, can't you plumb it up so the RO wastage goes back into the supply?


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## Ed Seeley (18 May 2009)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> Oh and rather than using an RO machine, why don't you try one of those in-line filters with no wastage? It won't be as pure as RO but doesn't need to be for freshwater?
> 
> Btw, can't you plumb it up so the RO wastage goes back into the supply?



The extra back pressure would mean the RO wouldn't function correctly as you'd get too much back pressure but you can get RO water down to a 1:1 ratio of waste and reject water as some guys do their RO units on their koi ponds.

The in-line filters work by using ionisation.  This takes two forms, either mixed bed deionisation resins that need replacing regularly as they can't be recharged (expensive) or ion-exchange resins that can be recharged with sodium chloride which put lots of sodium ions into the water!  Neither are that good!


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## Themuleous (18 May 2009)

Lisa_Perry75 said:
			
		

> Hey Sam,
> 
> Hope things have improved for you?
> 
> Lisa -x-



Hi Lisa, 

Good to see you back on here 

Well I did a complete strip down and changed the substrate for fresh, unsoaked akadama, then planted it with blyxa and HC, around 5 weeks ago.  This was followed by a period of little to no CO2 and the whole take got covered in brown algae.  This killed most of the HC and the blyxa didn't fair that great.  I added some ottos and nerites snails and they are finally getting on top of it.  I added some more HC but its once again not doing very well, although the blyxa is going ok.

I really dont rate akadama, although I did get it to work in my nano once, it just seems to need months to get settled (whatever 'settled' actually means, and it must be a similar principle to tropica substrate?).  I should have just bitten the bullet and got a decent substrate, aquatics-online do EC pretty cheap, esp for a large tank.  I have promised my wife I'll leave it alone for another month or two, but unless there is a radical change it'll be another strip down and substrate change.

I did at least rearrange the rocks, which I have to say I'm really rather pleased with 

I have also changed to 100% tap as its on the low side of hard hardness (14dGH), as I was fed up with changing the water and the recent lack of rain put an end to my use of rain water.  I've also got nice hardly cherry barbs  which as Jimmy says are an underrated fish IMHO.

Looks like the blyxa will survive but its not flourishing, the HC only time will tell.

I have a mature java fern in there that's doing well   it loves the CO2.

Sam


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## Lisa_Perry75 (19 May 2009)

Thanks Sam. Sorry to hear things aren't going better for you. Maybe a better substrate might help, that and constant good levels of CO2? Anyhow what do I know, I grow seaweed!

Thanks Ed for the info. Surely you could collect the waste and then use it for toilet flushing etc?


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## Themuleous (28 Jun 2009)

Just wanted to document that yesterday I stripped the tank again and replaced the akadama for Eco-complete, 80lbs worth and I could have added another 40lb but think it looks OK depth wise.

And now we wait...

Sam


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## TDI-line (28 Jun 2009)

Good luck, again Sam.


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## samc (28 Jun 2009)

good luck from me too hope the hc does good


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## Themuleous (29 Jun 2009)

Cheers guys, will keep you all posted.

Sam


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## Dan Crawford (29 Jun 2009)

Good stuff mate, always learning hey


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## Amoeba (2 Aug 2009)

Hi Sam,
took me a while to find this thread   
I have similar problems with HC and akadama. All the plants are doing great, except the small ones, like HC.

EI dosing, light 0.75w/l, co2 30ppm, NO3 10-25, K~30, PO4~2, Fe~0.2, Ca~35, Mg~8

Do you know approx levels of all the nutrients in the two tanks you have?
There must be a difference there. We just have to get to the bottom of it  8) 
J


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## baron von bubba (3 Aug 2009)

hi,
how's it all going now?
i must say that i have had similar things happening for a while in my tank, altho not quite as bad tbh.

in my case i believe it was flow and co2 related, altho at the time i was positive that both those things were up to scratch!
i use a ph meter (is is set low, so is a "safety cut off" rather than to switch the co2 on and off, if that makes sense)
i realize that other things influence the ph other than co2, but just by looking at the ph reading on the meter i can see roughly how my co2 is doing at any given time (this has got easier as i'm learning more about the tank!)

so... i noticed a couple of things
1. as you said the evaporation has a bearing on levels and if the water disturbance gets greater as the week goes on then obviously your co2 levels are dropping day after day!

2. as plant mass increases co2 uptake obviously increases, so in my case as the week goes on co2 levels drop

3. as the plant mass increases it interferes with the flow, again messing the co2 distribution up!

i did a large trim yesterday and ripped most of my carpet up, the co2 reached its cut off within 2 hours of starting, the day before the trim it didnt get anywhere near that in the 8 hours it was on!


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## Themuleous (3 Aug 2009)

Hi matey 

Cheers for the advice.  CO2 has been shouted at me from a great many angles  When I was using the akadama I took all the fish out and ran the CO2 to the max, _really_ to the max and nothing changed.  Since changing to the eco-complete, I've run the CO2 into the yellow.  I did run it very high but I lost a fish and they just weren't as active when it was very high so I have reduced it a bit, still way into the yellow though.  Nothing changes.

When I see the surface too disturbed, I either lower the outlet or top up the tank, so its never causing problems for very long.

Sam


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## lljdma06 (3 Aug 2009)

Geez, Sam.  Nothing?  It's not growing _any_ better?

Any pictures?


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## Themuleous (3 Aug 2009)

Nope not a sausage out of either the HC or blyxa.  I even added a few crypts as a bit of an 'easy plant' experiment, but they are doing crap as well   

Sam


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## lljdma06 (3 Aug 2009)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Nope not a sausage out of either the HC or blyxa.  I even added a few crypts as a bit of an 'easy plant' experiment, but they are doing crap as well
> 
> Sam



Is this your only tank?


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## Nick16 (3 Aug 2009)

i honestly do belive its your water or you tank, there must be something leaching. 

becuase, all other angles have been covered and you know what your doing, so i put it down to the tank (was it bought new btw?) or the water.


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## lljdma06 (3 Aug 2009)

I'm inclined to agree.  Either the water or the specific tank.  That's why I want to know if things are growing well if he has multiple tanks.  He's had trouble with HC before, which could imply the water.


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## Themuleous (3 Aug 2009)

lljdma06 said:
			
		

> Themuleous said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope got two others, here are some pics of the HC, this happens over a few weeks after been planted.  Then the HC stays like this ever since.














Yet here are the java ferns in my community, 'non-planted' tank.  My nano have hornwort and flame moss both doing well.







			
				Nick16 said:
			
		

> becuase, all other angles have been covered and you know what your doing, so i put it down to the tank (was it bought new btw?) or the water.



Well I would like to think I know enough!  EI really isn't that tricky once you get the hang of it. 

New tank, from TGM.

I'm gonna get some new HC tomorrow hopefully, which will be the first since I switched to 100% RO.

Sam


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## lljdma06 (4 Aug 2009)

That's so weird that you have to use 100% RO now.  It makes things so complicated.  And I thought my own water really was bad, but compared with all that you have to do, all I do is pour some dechlorinator and I'm good.  

I hope it works out with the new HC

llj


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## Themuleous (4 Aug 2009)

lljdma06 said:
			
		

> That's so weird that you have to use 100% RO now.  It makes things so complicated.  And I thought my own water really was bad, but compared with all that you have to do, all I do is pour some dechlorinator and I'm good.



Tell me about it!  Weird isn't the word.  Why so my tanks struggle when others just seem to do it so easily!?!?!

It has to be something pretty fundamental.

Sam


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## mattyc (4 Aug 2009)

do you add FE (iron) into the tank?
this made a big differance to how fast my plants grow they have gone wild my tank is like a jungle. my HC went a bit nasty looking but now grows realy well. 

i would start at the begining and make sure you meet all the things that the plants need!!

the triangle thing, (i think) 

                                       light
                            CO2                  Ferts

then check your trace elements like iron etc

do any plants grow well?

i use 100% RO water then adjust it to 4-5 kh and gh using

http://www.thegreenmachineaquatics....uatics/_6 8337203810 6/199022/Sera kH/pH-plus
and
http://www.thegreenmachineaquatics....tics/_6 8337203399 1/199022/Sera Mineral Salt

as advised by TGM for my crap tap water!!

realy hope you get this problem sorted  
Matt


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## Themuleous (4 Aug 2009)

Thank Matt, Im pretty sure I've got the major bases covered.  Use TPN and EI so that should sort the ferts out.  

All the plants react in the same way.

Sam


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## mattyc (4 Aug 2009)

i dont use the EI system just PNT and PNT+ i also use a bit of Excell and easy life ferro to add a bit of iron into the water to help the plants grow new leaves.

if you use 100% RO water then you can control exactley the water and eliminate any problems caused by water, they have been replacing water pipes near my house and the water isnt verry good and i have had a new kitchen and boiter which dosent help. the flux used isnt verry friendley and the glue used on the plastic water pipes cant be verry good either!!

Matt


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## aaronnorth (4 Aug 2009)

Themuleous said:
			
		

> Thank Matt, Im pretty sure I've got the major bases covered.  Use TPN and EI so that should sort the ferts out.
> 
> All the plants react in the same way.
> 
> Sam




Have you tried adding some MgSO4 or GH booster?


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## Themuleous (4 Aug 2009)

I haven't in the past, but equally I was at one stage using 100% tap water which is really hard in Oxford.  I am using it now though as its part of JamesC RO re-mineralisation recipe.

Sam


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## lljdma06 (4 Aug 2009)

Do other people in you area have similar problems or is it just you?  Sorry, if I am asking redundant questions.  Believe me, I know full well that you know what you're doing with regard to dosing, CO2, light, etc.  It's got to be something else.  Something that we're not seeing.  Just checking, none of the tanks are open top?


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## Themuleous (4 Aug 2009)

That's cool, Llj, keep the ideas coming 

I dont know of anyone else in the immediate local area and certainly not anyone with a planted tank in the same water area.

The tank is open top, but if you're thinking deodorants or similar then we use all natural soap and sprays (I'm such a hippie ) and I even got my wife to switch to roll on!  No air fresheners or polishers either.  We certainly don't have the same cacophony of chemicals in the air that I dare say most people do!

I am also thinking lighting.  Both the planted tanks I've had trouble with were T5, the cheapo EQJ trading luminaires.  But then lots if not most people use T5 these days.  I am thinking of switching to T8, but can only find luminaires with 2 bulbs but would like 3.  I could DIY something bu that would mean lots of wires and a generally tatty set up, its also a very expensive experiment if it doesn't work!

I guess the only thing is that in using T5 lighting, CO2 becomes more of an issue due to the more intense light.  I did removal all the fish though at one point and whacked up the CO2 to see it that was the problem, but the same happened.  Also, if it were a CO2 issue wouldn't the plants that are directly in the flow of the CO2 water grow fine?

Thanks again 

Sam


----------

