# 120L Eleocharis Parvula tank



## Jaap (27 Oct 2012)

Hello,

Here are my aquarium specs:
1.	Tank – 120L open tank
2.	Filter -  Tetra EX700  (700 l/h)
3.	Lights – 2 x T8 18W each but only one is switched on for 6 hours per day
4.	Substrate – JBL Manado
5.	Pressurized CO2 with magnetic valve and UP atomizer
6.	Estimative Index fertilization regime
7.	Large piece of driftwood in the tank
8.	Water changes once a week 30% with dechlorinated water
9.	Flora – Eleocharis Parvula
10.	Fauna – 7 Bosemani Rainbofish, 5 Black Widow Tetras, 1 Glassfish, 3 Ottos
11.	Tank is up and running for 2 months but filter is running for a whole year.






Current Situation:
I initially added 3 pots of Eleocharis Parvula in the tank but instead of the using a pressurized CO2 system, I added daily dose of Excel, Seachem Flourish for micronutrients and DIY Macronutrient batch. This did not seem to help the plants which never established in the tank and were gradually removed by the Rainbowfish. Algae is minimal.

Future plans:
My intention is to remove all fish so that I can blast the tank with CO2 from the pressurized system, continue adding the regular dose of Excel (5ml per day), plant 8 pots of Eleocharis Parvula and all these so I can create a dense carpet effect.

Questions:
1.	Should I remove all of my fish so that I can increase CO2 levels without any concerns for fauna?
2.	Is the photoperiod and light intensity correct?
3.	Is the filter strong enough?
4.	Should I continue using Excel?
5.	How long should I keep the CO2 on for? 24/7 or should I schedule the magnetic valve to start 1 hour before lights on and close when lights are out?
6.	Should I overdose when using EI so I am certain that plants don’t have any deficiencies?

Any other advise or suggestions?

Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (27 Oct 2012)

Jaap said:
			
		

> 1.	Should I remove all of my fish so that I can increase CO2 levels without any concerns for fauna?


Yes.


			
				Jaap said:
			
		

> 2.	Is the photoperiod and light intensity correct?


Yes


			
				Jaap said:
			
		

> 3.	Is the filter strong enough?


As a general policy, please comply with the 10X rule.


			
				Jaap said:
			
		

> 4.	Should I continue using Excel?


Yes.


			
				Jaap said:
			
		

> 5.	How long should I keep the CO2 on for? 24/7 or should I schedule the magnetic valve to start 1 hour before lights on and close when lights are out?


If there are no fish in the tank then this is up to you. 24/7 is much less complicated, so again, if there are no fish then this sounds like a good idea.


			
				Jaap said:
			
		

> 6.	Should I overdose when using EI so I am certain that plants don’t have any deficiencies?


If you follow advice 1-5 there should be no need.

Cheers,


----------



## Maristo (27 Oct 2012)

A question on this tank:

I was wondering about the number of pots of eleocharis parvula which should be planted in this tank. 8?
In general should we go for a dense initial plantation? Or plant a few and wait for the growth dense effect over time?

Also should the co2 be running prior to planting the hairgrass in order to increase co2 levels in the tank? Or could start co2 as soon as the plants are in place?

Feedback on this would be much appreciated! 

Thanks guys


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Oct 2012)

Hi,
    The idea is always to plant as many specimens as possible right from the start. The more plants you have in the tank the better off you will be because they will oxygenate the sediment and will have a positive effect on aerobic bacteria. You can always remove and sell on any excess if there is too much. Sorry, I have no idea how many pots it takes to cover the open areas of the substrate shown in the OPs tank. I guess buy 8 and then if there is space left and money is not an issue then get more to fill the open spaces.

CO2 and flow are absolutely required immediately as the plants are flooded. In fact, failure to do  this is the root of almost all failures with carpet plants. Lighting should be kept at low intensity and CO2/flow should be maximized. After some weeks, when the plants have adapted to an aquatic regime, then the lighting can be intensified, if desired, to accelerate growth rates, but CO2 and flow to the substrate are a priority. Additionally large water changes (50% or more) should be accomplished 2X-3X per week for the first month or so.

Cheers,


----------



## Maristo (28 Oct 2012)

Thanks ceg4048 great info!

With regards to the filter above, the outflow pipe is in the same position as the inflow!
If the inflow pipe was moved to the other side of the tank would that have beneficial effect on the co2/flow and help the growth of the plants overall?  Or that does not have a major role in this?

Thanks in advance for the help


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Oct 2012)

Makes little difference mate. Outflow position and mass flow rate is all that matters.

Cheers,


----------



## Maristo (2 Nov 2012)

I have a question on the filtration system of this tank.

In the above tank there is driftwood which has been in place for about a year.
Initially I was using carbon in the filter to get rid of tannins and the water was crystal clear.
However now the carbon is removed from the filter and the water has a sligth yellowish color from the tannins.

Advice needed: if i plant the tank with eleocharis parvula does the carbon in the filter play a role? Should i use one (crystal clear water)? 

Also how do I clean the filter in a planted tank in order not to remove any bacterial etc?

Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (2 Nov 2012)

Hello,
       Carbon removes toxins and some forms of organic products, therefore it's a good thing, so add as much carbon as you want. Eleocharis parvula has no conflict with activated carbon. 

Clean you filter thoroughly and worry 10X more about removing as much of the dirt, muck and detritus from the filter as you can, that if left unattended to, causes a lot more problems that loss of a few measly bacteria. Clean you tank thoroughly and remove as much dirt from the sediment as possible. There a re plenty of bacteria left to repopulate the filter and the sediment so this is not really a concern. People who worry about losing bacteria are the ones with the most problems, because this behavior results in a dirty tank and dirty filter, which causes many more problems than it solves. A CO2 injected, nutrient infused tank gets very filthy, very quickly. The more of these elements you add, the more dirt and organic waste the plants will produce. Everything in your tank, including the bacteria will benefit if you keep it scrupulously clean by rubbing, scrubbing and by replacing as much water as possible, as often as possible.

Cheers,


----------



## Maristo (2 Nov 2012)

Thnx ceg you ve been very helpful!

I must say though that on the filter cleaning and carbon so far ive heard very different opinions!
For me i would go for cleaner and use carbon since the result is immediate on the tank water!

Any other tips on planting/maintaining the hairgrass?

I should be ready to start planting next week and i will post pics of the process!

Thanks


----------



## Manrock (2 Nov 2012)

I have to say that I disagree with the comments from ceg - from my own experience I go in almost the exact opposite direction! That is not to say that he is wrong, far from it. I think we all find our own ways that suit us as people and our tanks. 
I change the water of my 35gall tank 20% once a month. I 'clean' my filter (Elheim 2224) twice a year and even then I just change the sponges and shake the baskets in some tank water (mostly to get the 50 or so Cherry reds that have found their way into the filter). I have to clean algae from the front glass about every 6 -8 weeks. I never, ever remove any sediment from my substrate. I allow it to settle and enter the substrate so that my plants can use the nutrients. I can actually see this process from the side of my tank - fine sediment sits under the coarser 'gravel' and this is where the plant roots reach to. I leave it to the fish to and shrimps to break down the bigger stuff. I do dose trace every other day but follow the 'Poor man's dosing regime' as outlined by Barr (basically it's a tiny amount). I don't dose any ferts - no need to as I have lots of fish producing those for me. The CO2 should come on an hour or two before lights on and switch off an hour before lights off - unless you have vast amounts of money to burn! It can only be used in photosynthesis when there is light present so absolutely no need to pump it into your tank in the dark - it's just wasted. As for lights I'd say you were pretty low with only one 18w bulb for 120l. I'd have them both on for 9 - 11 hrs. But, of course, others will have different ideas and run very successful tanks on different regimes. Find what suits you - I'm a lazy bugger so try to get my tank as balanced as possible without my interference from me.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Steve


----------



## ceg4048 (3 Nov 2012)

Manrock said:
			
		

> .. I have to clean algae from the front glass about every 6 -8 weeks...


Exactly. I don't have to clean algae from glass at any time. And that's the difference. Adding more light is not a good thing for someone struggling to "get it right". That doesn't mean that you can never add more light, or that you can never get away with laziness, only that the more light you add and the more lazy you are, the less margin of error there is. 

Once the plants are healthy and established, they can put up with abuse, however it has been demonstrated repeatedly that those people suffering algal blooms and poor performance can solve or minimize these issues by following the basic strategy of cleanliness, good flow/distribution, nutrition and reduced lighting. Carpet plants in general have a very difficult time getting established, so the best path to success is to do all the things that benefit plant health, which, for carpet plants, means strict attention to flow/distribution, high CO2, low-to-moderate lighting, high nutrition and clean water.

Cheers,


----------



## Manrock (3 Nov 2012)

As I said, we all find our own ways.You'll find plenty of people who will disagree with you ceg.  I have a carpet without having to do all the cleaning that you do, my tank pretty much runs itself. If you go down that route, with cleaning all the time and high fert dosing, then there is only a small margin for error, especially if you add light. Sure, I have to put up with a little algae on my glass that requires me to give it a quick wipe every couple of months but that is about all I do re; maintenance and that suits me fine. Each to his own.

Steve


----------



## foxfish (3 Nov 2012)

Hi Steve, your tank sounds great, do you have any pictures?


----------



## Manrock (3 Nov 2012)

foxfish said:
			
		

> Hi Steve, your tank sounds great, do you have any pictures?



I've just done a rescape and there are some pics of the tank in there. The hairgrass carpet is just beginning to 'take' a week further on.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=24027


----------



## foxfish (3 Nov 2012)

Ah yes I remember now, I have also found that planted tanks do indeed become much easier to maintain once they become mature.
It is in the early stages that we really need to keep cleanliness & water changes etc in check.
I would say from my experiences that if you can strictly maintain your tank for six months or so then every thing seems to slot into place & thereafter run very smoothly, I am sure there are logical reasons....


----------



## Manrock (3 Nov 2012)

I'd agree with that. A brand new set-up is fraught with danger early on and can be prone to algal blooms. We all get there in the end, which ever way we do it!


----------



## sanj (9 Nov 2012)

Hi,

you might struggle with establishing hairgrass in your tank with respect to your fauna. Boesemani will pick at it and often pull the plants up. They will even consume the plants whole only for the plant to come out the other end almost intact.   

You can try mitigating this to a degree my increasing the vegetable matter you feed your fish. I do have eloacharis in my tank, but not as a carpet although that was the initial intention. I have tried twice to carpet the tank with hairgrass and failed chiefly down to rainbowfish pulling it up and consuming it.

Some rainbows are less likey to do so, praecox tend not to be so bothersome in this regard aswell as other smaller species.

Try to increase the veggie matter in thier diet; spirulina, duckweed, spinach, seaweed, chlorella flakes, peas etc.


----------



## Maristo (13 Nov 2012)

Thanks for the replies,

The tank has been planted with eleocharis parvula mainly and in the background some eleocharis accicularis as from yesterday. I will try and post some pics during the day.

I also removed the rainbow fish and glass catfish - now in tank 5 Black Widow Tetras, 3 Ottos.

Sanj you are very correct for the Rainbow fish - I have tried to plant before and they were pulling the hairgrass out and even consuming it. So this time I played it safe on the fauna side. I will put more tetras when the tank is stable and the hairgrass is established.

I would like to ask about the initial stages of the tank.

1. Water changes:  - should it be more often around 3-4 times weekly at 30% ?

2. CO2 stability:    - current status is Lights on at 18:00 and off at 23:00, CO2 on at 16:00 and off at 23:00.
                           - is this a stable routine to follow in order to avoid algae issues? any other tips?


----------



## Maristo (14 Nov 2012)

hey guys!

As promised this is a link of the aquarium on Day 1.

http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u58 ... umDay1.jpg

I would appreciate any comments or tips for the previous post.

Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (15 Nov 2012)

Hi,
    Yes you should do the frequent water changes and you don't have to limit them to 30%. The more the better.
As long as your dropchecker (filled with 4dkh water) is lime green at lights on you should be OK. You may have to move the spraybar to the back wall to get better distribution. You can also add liquid carbon as a supplement to aid the transition.

Also, you can add some easy simple plants to help the substrate mature faster. You are not limited to only the hairgrass and you can pull out the plants that you don't want later. Egeria densa or some type of fast growing stem can be planted and removed later on.

Cheers,


----------



## Maristo (28 Nov 2012)

Hello people,

I am experiencing a problem with my CO2 regulator - readings suddenly fell to zero and Im currently trying to resolve this. So I have no CO2 and to resolve it may take up to 3-4 days. Currently adding liquid CO2.

In the meantime I would appreciate any advice on:
1. Lights - should I reduce the light period (6hours) in order to avoid any other problems?
2. Dosing - decrease?
3. Water changes - should I increase water changes? (now approx. 3 times per week 50%)

Its been frustrating since I am currently in the 3rd week of my plants and I believe its a set back - I hope it does not affect them so much.


----------



## ceg4048 (28 Nov 2012)

Why not just turn the lights off for a few days and keep everything else the same? Make things simple until you get your regulator back.

Cheers,


----------



## Maristo (4 Dec 2012)

Hello ceg4048,

Thanks for the advice at all times!

I have installed the co2 again and everything seems to work ok. 
However the pressure gauge set at 3 bar is constantly moving from 2.8-3.2 bar, this did not happen before.
Is there an issue here?

Thanks


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (4 Dec 2012)

3 bars fairly high I think mate? Can you reduce it a little. I think foxfish stated glass drop checkers seem to explode around that sort of Pressure.


----------



## Maristo (5 Dec 2012)

I use the Easy Aqua Twin Guage Regulator/Solenoid from AquaEssential and I thought that a range of 2-4 bar would be ok, thats why I used the 3 bar - opted for the middle.

Any ideas on the issue with the variances in the pressure gauge?
Also do you know how long would a 3Kg Co2 bottle would last me for? 7 hour per day usage

Thanks


----------



## foxfish (5 Dec 2012)

2 bar is normal & pretty safe although many, if not most regs, have an upper limit of 1.7 bar.
If there is little resistance, ie a reactor, then the pressure can be set around 1 bar, if you are using a high pressure device like a man made ceramic atomiser then it may be necessary to use 2 - 2.5 bar.
There should not be any issues using 3 bar unless (or until) the outlet becomes restricted, ie ceramic stone gets clogged with lime scale or somthing else, then something could easily give or explode. Probably not a good idea as a blown hose could empty your tank & empty your gas supply.


----------



## Maristo (17 Dec 2012)

hello again,

I have a question with regards to water temperature.

Currently I am not using a heater and the tank temp. is around 21C. 

Should I install a heater and set the temperature around 25-27C?
Will it help my plant growth rate?

Thanks


----------



## GHNelson (17 Dec 2012)

Hi
However the pressure gauge set at 3 bar is constantly moving from 2.8-3.2 bar, this did not happen before.
Is there an issue here?
You need to check for leakage.
hoggie


----------



## Maristo (21 Dec 2012)

Hello,

i want your advice on the ideal temperature for the planted tank!
currently its around 21c without a heater.
should i install one and set it around 25c? Whats the best for plant growth?


----------



## Palm Tree (21 Dec 2012)

I would personally use a heater to avoid fluctuations and set it to about 23/24c which is a good temperature for the fish, plants aren't really picky though. I wouldn't go higher than 26c though.


----------



## Maristo (29 Dec 2012)

Hi people,

I have placed a heater in the tank and its set at 25C.
There seems to be a problem though, some kind of algae, dont know!
All the variables are the same except for the heater and im using liquid carbon from brightwell aquatics (in addition to pressurised co2).

Heres some pics:






















I would appreciate your help in this one!


----------



## Maristo (30 Dec 2012)

previously i was using excel from seachem for liquid carbon


----------



## Manrock (30 Dec 2012)

I don't know what could be causing your algae problem but it's obviously an imbalance somewhere re ferts and light and CO2 distribution. Wiser heads than mine might be able to pin it down for you. Have you got any fish, shrimps or snails in the tank? Shrimps and red ramshorns would get through that lot. I always have a SAE in my tanks too - for the really stubborn algae.


----------



## Maristo (31 Dec 2012)

Well after some research on the forumn i have trimmed the hair grass and done more than 50% water change.

i will follow this for 4 days and see how it goes! 

for fertilisation i tend to overdose - is that an issue?

the fish currently are:
3 black tetras 
5 ottos
1 cherry shrimp


----------



## jack-rythm (31 Dec 2012)

depends on how much you overdose... If your overdosing on the liquid carbon I would be worrying.. if its fertz I would be less worried.. ?


----------



## Iain Sutherland (31 Dec 2012)

just remember that if you overdose ferts a lot it will also raise the demand for co2.  If using EI dosing then no need to overdose as it should be ample already.


----------



## Maristo (9 Jan 2013)

Hello people,

Here is a recent picture of my tank: 

http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u585/maristo1/7CE7AACD-5350-4BB4-824D-4072CC9F6515-12307-00000497E71F09BC.jpg

I have been doing recent water changes in order to get rid of that kind of algae previously posted. Also have done more trimming to the hair grass! Cannot say its gone 100%!

I would appreciate some advice as to how im doing with my tank, the ultimate goal is to get that dense carpet effect with the hairgrass! 
So far im not getting any positive signs! 

Thanks!


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (10 Jan 2013)

Your DC is bright yellow with a fish at the top clearly gasping, knock back the gas or remove all the fish and shrimp.

Subjecting fauna to these levels is both unnecessary and unfair.


----------



## Ady34 (10 Jan 2013)

Hi there maristo.
As whitey suggests your co2 may be on the high side as your fish do seem to be at the surface and the dc is yellow?
I think your algae issues are most likely down to your recent co2 issues. Running out and then fluctuating levels are the ideal recipie for algae so once you have a constant stable supply things should improve with regular water changes and tank/filter maintenance. I would increase water changes to a minimum of two x 50% per week while your still experiencing algae issues. Continue to dose the liquid carbon alongside your gas co2 to act as an algaecide to speed up the eradication.
Hope it goes well, stick with it!
Cheerio
Ady


----------



## Maristo (23 Mar 2013)

Hello guys,

It been disappointing since i do not see any growth of the eleocharis parvula plants for almost 3 months!
I dont understand whats affecting the growth or what i am doing wrong!
Is it the lights-should i use both T8s? 

I will post a pic as well!

Please advise!!

Here are my aquarium specs:
1.	Tank – 120L open tank
2.	Filter - Tetra EX700 (700 l/h)
3.	Lights – 2 x T8 18W each but only one is switched on for 6 hours per day
4.	Substrate – JBL Manado
5.	Pressurized CO2 with magnetic valve and UP atomizer
6.	Estimative Index fertilization regime - 30ml of sera florena per week (3 days of 10ml) and 40ml of the EI ferts ( spread in 3 days). One day no ferts where i usually do the water change.
7.	Water changes once a week 30% with dechlorinated water
8.	 Flora – Eleocharis Parvula
9.	 Fauna - Mainly tetra fish and 6 ottos


----------



## Maristo (23 Mar 2013)

http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u585/maristo1/3C6ED5AD-A797-411D-B3F5-5BEC5EDD9185-2099-000000D8BAAAD481_zpse3cc92ab.jpg


----------



## Maristo (23 Mar 2013)

http://i1323.photobucket.com/albums/u585/maristo1/96650AEE-1F09-4D16-BEA6-0C6F9645734C-2099-000000D8B4C6FE1D_zpsaac282ba.jpg


----------



## Nathaniel Whiteside (23 Mar 2013)

Id definitely up the lights mate! It'll speed things up. Better still, try getting a t5 Hang on light unit.


----------



## Jaap (25 Mar 2013)

The lights that Maristo has are T5 and not T8. However, I still remain baffled since Maristo seems to be doing everything correctly.

-CO2 is high and borderline lethal to the fish and also accompanied by liquid carbon so I believe the CO2 is more than adequate in this tank. 
-The dosing of macro and micro fertilisers seems to be correct but to be safe he even overdoses some times. (Maristo please provide more information on this matter)
-The light as much as it is should promote growth and not inhibit it. 

I myself do not know what is wrong and would much like to find out so please go on and make any suggestions you might have. It is disappointing to see the before and after pictures where it can be clearly seen that the bio-load has diminished significantly.


----------



## ceg4048 (26 Mar 2013)

This is most likely a result of poor flow and distribution. Adding more light will have fatal consequences. The spraybar should be mounted on the back wall and the flow rate needs to improve. 

Whenever there is a situation of toxic levels of CO2 plus loss of tissue this means poor flow/distribution.

Cheers,


----------



## Jaap (26 Mar 2013)

A good powerhead would do the job? 

Furthermore, with bad circulation wouldn't that mean good growth in certain areas and bad in others?

Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (26 Mar 2013)

Hello,
		 Yes, powerheads are often used to supplement flow ad as long as they are well placed they will do a good job.

Bad circulation means bad circulation. There is never a guarantee that anything will be good at any place. It's pot luck.

Cheers,


----------



## Jaap (12 Apr 2013)

Hi ceg4048,

where would you recommend the powerhead to be placed?

Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (12 Apr 2013)

Hi mate,
			 In order to supplement and to therefore amplify the flow of the spraybar, a powerhead must be placed in a location where it's flow output is parallel to, and in the same direction as the flow of the spraybar. That can be just below/above the spraybar or alongside of the bar depending on the spacing in the tank. What you want to avoid is having the flow of the powerhead opposing, skewing, or colliding with the flow of the spraybar. Try different placements that are consistent with this principle to see which works best.

Cheers,


----------



## Jaap (12 Apr 2013)

From the picture below, it can be seen that a powerhead has been added under the spray bar but also the spray bar was turned to face slightly downwards. Correct positioning of powerhead or should it be changed? Suggestions? 






Thanks


----------



## ceg4048 (12 Apr 2013)

hi mate,
			  Yes, if the pump is placed in the center then that is a good starting location. There is no advantage in pointing the flow downwards. This defeats the flow pattern we are trying to achive. Everything should be horizontal to start with, but of course, every tank is different. Experiment with minor tweaks and see what works best.

Cheers,


----------

