# DSM - non-CO2/low tech - transition questions?



## magpie (12 Jul 2010)

Dear all, 

So.... It's been 5 weeks since I set up the massive DSM project (it feels massive to me) - which is in the 'Learning Curve' journal thread.  My step daughter's gone on holiday with the camera, so no recent pictures, but I have a carpet of Hc with roots 2-3 cm down into the substrate, some very happy Staurogyne, P.helferi, 4 delightful anubias nana and a small forest of moss - all in the tank with cling film on top and spraying 2 or 3 times daily with TPN+ in the water... 

I'm thinking it might be time to flood it, tho' I'm in no particular hurry - which might be as well - because I've decided to go non-CO2, low-tech and it may well be that my plant choice is useless. 

I"m motivated by this from the Barr Report:



> CO2 is a bit like a drug addiction that hobbyists get hooked on. That's fine, but this non CO2 approach will give an excuse to have another tank that needs less attention and is cheap.
> I suggest folks coming from either the non CO2 or the CO2 enrichment approaches to give the other method a try and see what benefits it has.
> CO2 and non CO2 tanks work for all the same reasons, but........
> They grow at different rates.



It's the addiction bit. I'm addicted to being addicted.  I'm the only middle aged woman in the world, as far as I know, to have got a character to the top of World of Warcraft... I can get addicted to eating, or not eating, or running, or climbing, or... easily to CO2 and all the fiddling.  I've got the Fire extinguishers and the solenoid regulator and the inline reactors all ready. I can feel the urge to start playing. 

But... 

But, I'm also away a lot and will be leaving the tank with people who are, at best, neutral in the pro/anti tank wars that we had before I set it up.  They might feed the fish, particularly if I manage to link it in with feeding the chickens, but they won't be doing anything else.   And actually, I've got enough else on not to create another source of stress. 

So... I think it's time for peace, quite and minimal fiddling. 

But - while I"ve read things from Tom Barr about DSM - non-CO2, I'm not entirely sure of the practicalities. I'm also not sure if my plant choice is frankly stupid.  Barr says somewhere (can't currently find the quote) that Hc is fine DSM-> low tech, but everyone else says it'll die from lack of light. 

SO: early quesitons:

 - Do I need to go jungly if I'm not using high pressure CO2? 
 - If so, what plants are best?
 - Is it better to use some glutaraldehyde, at least at the start? 
 - Do I need to have some serious floating plants to reduce light to the rest? 

The layout, for those who don't want to go to the journal thread, is below: 

lights: currently 4 x 39W T5 w reflector on a luminaire.  I can cut that to 2 x 39 W
The tank is 90 x 5 x 45 cm, which comes out as roughly 328litres/84 US gallons but after taking into account the substrate and the volume of the rock/wood, I think it'll come out closer to 154litres/65 US gallons - so if I cut to 2 x 39W lights, that's just over 1W per gallon 
BUT - the tank is wide, front to back and quite low, so given the inverse square law, the plants most distant from the light unit are getting significantly less than those just underneath.  
Filter - Eheim 2078. I have 2 koralia nano 2s I can use to improve flow
In line heater
substrate is Columbo Flora Base

Image below:






Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img]

I'm contemplating ditching the sand - which frankly looks horrible now - and replacing it with a hemianthus carpet running up into the 'cave' under the wood, and then having more stem plants/crypts/java ferns in the bits around the rock - that'd give a lot more plant nutrient uptake aka plant biological filtration... 

all comments welcome


mx


----------



## a1Matt (12 Jul 2010)

I have successfully grown HC low tech (gravel with low light) so it can be done. But painfully slow growth, I am talking years not months to get a carpet going. So I'd wait until the HC has grown in as fully as you want it before flooding. That is what I'd base the "when to flood decision" on if it were my tank.

I found floating plants very helpful more from a point of view of providing a large mass of plants than for blocking the light. I think that answers the jungly question as well as the floating plant question 

I used liquid carbon to kick start my low tech after a rescape and it worked well for me.
I dosed at 1/3 what it said on the bottle for about 3 months, I eased off the dosing (once I started developing tunnel vision and burns on my hands, so I advise mask and gloves, I'm not joking) over a 3 week period with no ill effects or algae bloom from the tank.

What plants are best... swords and anubias are easiest and moss. followed by crypts. That is best as in easiest.  I had pogo helf. and HC like you.  They did fine   Staurogyne didn't but plenty of others have grown it low tech so that was just my bad skills I guess. Stems take a bit more care, but are doable in my opinion.

Hope that helps.

Tank looks lovely by the way. Do you have anything planted in the back left it looks empty, but I guess that is where the anubias is as I can not see them elsewhere.  If it really is empty I can picture some crypts in the back left


----------



## a1Matt (12 Jul 2010)

magpie said:
			
		

> some very happy Staurogyne,



This stuff goes mental emersed and humid, very satisfying


----------



## a1Matt (12 Jul 2010)

oh and the floating plants are clever because they are not limited by what co2 is in the tank, they can grab it from the air.
So after you flood and your newly submerged plants are adjusting to this, the floating plants can grow away nice and stably and that minimises the chances of the dreaded algae getting a grip at that time.


----------



## magpie (12 Jul 2010)

> oh and the floating plants are clever because they are not limited by what co2 is in the tank, they can grab it from the air.
> So after you flood and your newly submerged plants are adjusting to this, the floating plants can grow away nice and stably and that minimises the chances of the dreaded algae getting a grip at that time.




That was my plan... what floating plants would you recommend and where do I get them?


----------



## NeilW (12 Jul 2010)

magpie said:
			
		

> ...I'm contemplating ditching the sand - which frankly looks horrible now


Bit off your main topic but I disagree, I think the issue is the type of sand you've used looks 'flat' in terms of colour and texture so looks rather uniform over the large area.  Maybe try a more complex sand like Forest Sand Xingu in combination with graded gravels and smaller pieces of the main stone to break it up a bit and I think you'll be on a winner


----------



## George Farmer (12 Jul 2010)

Sorry, I have no experience with DSM or non-CO2 but I think it looks like a very exciting project.  I would also consider leaving DSM for as long as you can.  This way, once you've flooded, you'll spend more time enjoying looking at the tank in a more mature state, rather than watching painfully slow growth (unless you like that kind of thing...)

Just my Â£0.02.


----------



## NeilW (12 Jul 2010)

I found this a few weeks back which served as inspiration to keep going with mine;
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/88515-do-aqua-mini-m-riverrun.html
Check page 1 then page 9, he fills it after nearly 4 months!    What an excellent carpet of UG though, you rarely see people succeed so its inspirational stuff.  

slowly slowly catchy monkey


----------



## magpie (12 Jul 2010)

Thanks, all... and yes, Neil, the sand... I have a bag of ADA Nile sand ready - but I did think that it's taking up 25% of floor area and unless I wrap a lot of stones with HC or something equivalent, that's a lot of floor area with no biological filtration to speak of - at least, not as much as if I had some plants there... 

still time, tho' I just blew Â£30+ at the planted box on another ten litres of substrate - I can always sell it... 

and a1Matt - I originally planned some sweeping stems there - I have some 1-2-Grow rotala rotundifolia and Hygrophila difformis siamensis 53b there just now - the latter is doing far, far better than the former - I thought that both being emersed, they'd be the same, but not so - it's an interesting experiment. Also got a bit of lilaeopsis and some Bacopa caroliniana just to see what they do - more pics when the camera's back. 

But now if I'm going low tech, I might wait and get crypts for back and left side  - presumably they won't do too well on DSM and I ought to wait until I flood?

and George - thank you - I'm loving this - and in no hurry to flood ... so yes, I'll wait until the Hc is everywhere I want it - it's fascinating to watch it spread over the surface and even start creeping up the dragon stone... 

so new question for Those Who Know, based on Neil's thought... 

if I go low tech, to what extent does it matter to lose 25% of surface area to not-plants?

thank you all, hugely - I'd be lost without UKaps

mx


----------



## magpie (12 Jul 2010)

NeilW said:
			
		

> I found this a few weeks back which served as inspiration to keep going with mine;
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/88515-do-aqua-mini-m-riverrun.html
> Check page 1 then page 9, he fills it after nearly 4 months!    What an excellent carpet of UG though, you rarely see people succeed so its inspirational stuff.
> 
> slowly slowly catchy monkey





Neil!  Good man -  your post crossed with mine

magical stuff - I can wait 'till Christmas if I have to - this is a long term tank... 

so waiting it is - plus or minus a removal of all or some of the sand

ta

mx


----------



## NeilW (12 Jul 2010)

magpie said:
			
		

> Thanks, all... and yes, Neil, the sand... I have a bag of ADA Nile sand ready - but I did think that it's taking up 25% of floor area and unless I wrap a lot of stones with HC or something equivalent, that's a lot of floor area with no biological filtration to speak of - at least, not as much as if I had some plants there...


I don't think you would have an issue as you have acres of substrate already so would be colonised pretty well.  Assumably you've got a beast of a filter in media capacity too?  Just a rough theory based on my secondary school science I'd still say you would still have a number of bacteria in the sand section, just more anaerobic rather then aerobic due to lack of oxygenating roots.  Remember bacteria colonise *every* surface in the aquarium  

The reason I think you should keep your large sandy 'beach' is because its part of what makes your 'scape original in its idea and personal to you, I think it just needs more detailing thats all.



			
				magpie said:
			
		

> But now if I'm going low tech, I might wait and get crypts for back and left side  - presumably they won't do too well on DSM and I ought to wait until I flood?


I found they'll melt with every transition so emersed>submerged or vice versa.  Other then that they grow fine emersed once adapted. If you can get hold of some that have already been grown emersed if you want them in your DSM, if not just wait for the flood as you say or wait even longer for them to recover from the melt.  Even if you do get die-back it should regenerate from the root stock

Hope this is helpful,
Neil


----------



## magpie (12 Jul 2010)

Neil - everything you do and say is useful - I am your apprentice in all this - you're blazing the trail...


(this may be sad and uncomfortable, but it's true - and I am genuinely grateful for your insight)

mx


----------



## NeilW (12 Jul 2010)

Anytime    

Im pretty new to all this too but I like to share what little I know, glad to be of service   

Keep up the good work,
Neil


----------



## magpie (14 Jul 2010)

New pics of tank (s) here:

http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11757&start=30


----------

