# Advice Please - 400ltr low tech planted



## AshRolls (4 Sep 2012)

Hi there,

Firstly thanks for this informative forum, I have been reading through and gaining excellent information from all of your contributions.

I am about to set up my first planted community tank using the low tech non co2 approach and would appreciate if you could run your experienced eyes over my plan to make sure I haven't made any glaring mistakes and offer up any nuggets of advice or wisdom!  I already have all the equipment and substrate but have yet to purchase fertiliser / plants / fish. 

Tank: Juwel Rio 400 (400 litres, 104 US gal)
Lights: 2xT8 Flourescent 40W (Power Glo, Aqua Glo) (~0.8 WPG) + reflectors
Filter: Eheim Professional 3 2080 (pump output - 1700 ltr/p/h)
Substrate : 50/50 mix of eco-complete and unipac black gravel (inert)

Target Temperature : 24C
Local Water : Very Soft, Mildly Alkaline (Cornwall)
Lights on 8 hours per day (3pm to 11pm)

Maintenance: 
Top up water changes only
Fertiliser: (per week, miss a week once a month)

	1 teaspoon Equilibrium 
	1/2 teaspoon Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)
	1/8 teaspoon Potassium Mono Phosphate (KH2PO4)

Flora: 
Vallisneria spirallis (grass, back of tank)
Java moss - Vesicularia dubyana (tied onto rocks / wood)
Java fern (narrow leaf) - Microsorum pteropus (not on substrate, wrap rhizome around stone / wood)
Hygro polysperma
Chain swords
Lilaeopsis (aquarium grass)
Brazillian pennywort (floating)
Wisteria (needs moderate light)

Fauna:
6x Angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare)
20x Bloodfin Tetra (Aphyocharax anisitsi)
8x Oto (Otocinclus vittatus)
5x Peppered Corys (Corydoras Paleatus)

*UPDATE* Thanks to the advice below I have now decided to do a 50% water change every month. I will also most likely be changing from Peppered Cory to a species that is more tolerant of warmer water, and also changing to another breed of Tetra as well.

*UPDATE 2* The substrate will also include a basic soil under layer of Pond Soil.


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## dw1305 (4 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
Pretty good I would think as a set-up and sounds like it will be a runner. 

A few possible suggestions, probably try another _Corydoras_ sp. if you are sure you want Angels?, as _C. paleatus_ doesn't like warm water, and this is also true for the Blood-fin Tetra, although they are both pretty adaptable fish. I like _Corydoras panda_, but your soft water means most of them are a possibility (have a look at _Corydoras metae, C. trilineatus, C. sterbai, C. duplicareus _ etc.). There are lot of Tetra options as well, I like Black Neons or Lemon Tetras, but nearly all are a possibility. 

I'm not sure how _Vallisneria_ will get on in water with low carbonate hardness (your water is alkaline because the water company has added NaOH), I can't grow it in 100% rain-water. Have you thought about rain-water? it is in good supply in Cornwall and should be very good quality.

If you are regularly adding nutrients you will need to do water changes. Personally I don't like "no water change", and I change water regularly in all my tanks (all low tech and fed using the "duck-weed index").

cheers Darrel


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## AshRolls (4 Sep 2012)

Hi Darrel, thanks for the advice. 

The water change issue you flag up is the biggest thing for me... I chose the no water change because of this guide :-

http://www.sudeepmandal.com/hobbies/pla ... ank-guide/

I was under the impression that skipping a fert dose every few weeks would 'reset' the nutrient levels as the plants are using up all the ferts I am adding, even considering that I won't be 'diluting' the nutrients with water changes. Is this correct or have a made a fatal assumption here? 

I am not averse to doing water changes but the less maintenance the better of course, especially considering I have a second child due to appear any week now! Reading around the forums I see there is still some debate about the relative merits of water changes in low tech systems, from this I gather that you can go either way? Is a compromise solution also a possibility, say 10% a week, or 20% a fortnight? If I was to do water changes would I need to up the fert dose from those that I suggested to account for the dilution?

With regard to the soft water, would it be worth adding some bicarb to the system to up the carbonate hardness and also provide some pH buffering? Again, this is something I would think I only have to do once if not water changing, 

I had specifically chosen Bloodfins and Peppered Cory as they like the colder water, and with the tank at 24C (about as low as you should go with Angels) I thought this would be low enough for them to be happy after looking at the caresheets for those species. I will reappraise this if you think 24C is still too high for them to thrive.

Thanks again for your feedback and look forward to any further answers to my questions and other forums members takes on my proposed setup.


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## roadmaster (4 Sep 2012)

Sound's a good game plan to me.
I run an 80 U.S. gal low tech tank much this way, but I perform water change of 50 % once a month.
I believe if plant mass is large enough,and fishes are not too many,,then water changes could be fewer but I have quite a few fish, and monthly water change suit's me and the fishes, it seem's.
I might wait until the tank was fairly established before introducing the Otocinclus who seldom do well in newere tank's without primary food source (algae).
Some Amano shrimp might be an option? Angelfish may not bother these larger shrimp (maybe).
You may find, as I did, that as plant growth increases,, the fertilzer's may need to be adjusted.
I began with weekly, or every other week, 1/2 tsp of KNO3,KH2PO4, CSM+B.
This worked well  for six month's ,but then plant's began to exhibit some yellowing,of leaves,pin holes  in leaves, and so I increased the fertz to 3/4 tsp of each of the above and all appear's  well once again.


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## AshRolls (4 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the tips roadmaster, I certainly love shrimp and not being able to keep Red Cherry Shrimp in the tank is certainly a draw back to the Angels, I just love watching those inverts!

I'm still not sure of how to proceed with the water change routine, topping up, 10% a week, 20% fortnight, 50% month etc... As it depends on stocking level / biomass I'm looking at about 85% stocking according to aqadvisor.com (for what that's worth) but over-filtered by the big old EHEIM 2080, biomass I'm unsure how dense it will be until I actually have the plants!

Here are two tank journals that inspired me to take the low-tech planted approach
90 gal low tech http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic ... 82&t=27918
120 gal low tech (crypts) http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showt ... p?t=146780

Any further input (big or small) welcomed!


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## roadmaster (5 Sep 2012)

I spent a fair amount of time studying plant characteristic's ,growth,placement that would allow growth,height plant's are likely to achieve.
This allowed me to form a semi-plan as to where to put the plant's so as to not be uprooting,moving them about ,while they were adjsting to submerged growth and while new growth was noted.
I purhased enough plant's to plant  125 gal tank twice ,according to plant package's offered.
Believe this allowed me to ward off most algae that had twarted my attempt's previously.
With large plant mass from the outset,,algae has much more difficult time, and the large number of plant's helped offset those plant's that perhap's, did not fair to well initialy. 
I also hampered my own effort's by attempting to use the most light I thought I could get away with, rather than the least ,or middle  of the road so to speak.
Too much light brought algae and an increase in demand for CO2 which I do not use.
I settled on cheap Aqueon Triple tube T8 fixture with three 32 watt 6000K bulbs.
I believe Laura ,whose tank is one of those you referred to has expressed her difficulty with two 54 watt T5 bulb's over her 90 gal, (algae) and lighting period is rather short.(I too tried this approach).
Water changes once a month of 50% should not bee a Buzz Kill, and fishes do benefit from them.


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## AshRolls (5 Sep 2012)

I've read around further now and thanks to darren and roadmaster's pointers I am settling on a larger water change, less often. I love Laura's tank, hopefully I can find some nice driftwood somewhere around the rivers of Cornwall as it's such a dominant part of the overall look of the tank! Until I have the driftwood it's hard to start imagining how the layout of the tank will be.

I'm considering using the dry start method to get the carpet ( Lilaeopsis) of this tank up and running to keep plant costs down. 

Still not sure about Peppered Cory and Bloodfin Tetra in 24C water considering :

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ca ... esheetID=3
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/tetrafi ... ntetra.php

Is 24C really too hot for them to be comfortable with regard to Darren's advice above?


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## roadmaster (5 Sep 2012)

24 degrees C is right at 75 degree's F which in my view would suit the cory's and tetra's.
 I do not believe this temp to be warm for species mentioned.(cory's tetra's)
Is a bit on the cool side for Angelfish,but this could be a plus if angelfish begin squabbling for it slow's down their metabolisim's. would not suggest this cool temp for growing juvenile fish for it would/could, also slow down digestive process = slower growth,or bloated fish if fed in excess.


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## Palm Tree (6 Sep 2012)

Why not bronze corys, they are suited for water 20-28 deg c and i've personally kept them from 22- 26 degrees successfully. If you still prefer Peppered corys you should have no problem keeping them at 24 degrees but personally that would be the limit, not that they would die kept at 26 degrees but it would not be ideal conditions, generally 20-24 deg c is accepted as the ideal range. One thing I would mention which may sound stupid at first but make sure you're using an accurate digital thermometer as glass ones are not the most accurate so what you think may be a 24 deg c tank is actually 26 deg c. I also keep my angels at between 24-25 deg c without any adverse effects and in my opinion is the optimum range for my bronze corys, bristlenose, sailfin plec, colombian tetras and my angelfish.


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## Palm Tree (6 Sep 2012)

I should add look up colombian tetras they are my favorite shoaling fish. Pictures you see on the internet dont do them justice though.


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## AshRolls (6 Sep 2012)

Thanks Palm Tree, the Colombian Tetra's certainly look lovely. Apart from the angelfish and otos I am really open to any other community fish. It seems quite far in the future when I will be stocking though, got to get the plants up and going first!


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## Palm Tree (6 Sep 2012)

As you are looking for a low maintenance tank with minimal water changes it may be worthwhile to read up on the walstad method, which involves using a soil substrate capped with sand or gravel which provides the nutrients so you dont have to dose ferts. The walstad method also involes not using a filter for biological filtration as the plants will consume ammonia as their nitrogen source. In her book ecology of the planted aquarium Diana Walstad writes ' For example, Elodea nuttallii growing in a mixture of ammonium and nitrates, removed 50% of the initial ammonium after 8 hrs but very few nitrates. Only when much of the ammonium was gone (i.e., at about 16 hrs), did it begin to take up nitrates.'

She suggests doing 50% waterchanges roughly every 3 months but says that ' New setups may require frequent water changes, as a freshly submerged soil releases considerable nutrients'. 

If you dont fancy doing a full walstad style tank check out this guys youtube account he uses soil but with higher  lighting levels and more waterchanges - http://www.youtube.com/user/Dustinsfishtanks/featured


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## AshRolls (6 Sep 2012)

I looked into the Walstad method but decided against it in the end in favour of dosing fertilisers and having a decent filter. I don't know if this is entirely correct, but the Walstad method just seemed to be a bit too hard to 'balance' where my chosen method seemed to give a little more leeway for mistakes? 

I have already bought £100 worth of substrate (eco-complete / unipac black gravel mix) and my EHEIM 2080 filter arrived yesterday so I'm set on that course! I did wonder if a layer of AquaSoil under the above would beneficial to my tank, especially with regard to my intention of dry-starting the 'carpet' plants (still not 100% on Lilaeopsis yet either!). Would a layer of AquaSoil be beneficial as well or am I over-egging the pudding here?


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## dw1305 (6 Sep 2012)

Hi all,
I'm a great fan of Diana Walstad and if I only one book on aquaria it would be hers, but I think she later changed her mind about water movement and decided that you did need at least water movement, even if you didn't require a filter as such. I also think a lot of the problems she suffered from with mycobacteriosis in her Rainbow fish were related to the lack of water changes in her tanks <http://thegab.org/Articles/WalstadMyco_APC1.pdf>. Unless you have a very, very low fish load I would consider water changes (with good quality water) as an essential for fish health.
More details here: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=19013&start=30>

cheers Darrel


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## foxfish (6 Sep 2012)

There are several very successful soil tanks featured on this forum Toms bucket of mud & Allister's Chocolate puddle are both good examples.
I realise you don't want to waste your substrate but you might be inspired to read their threads


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## AshRolls (11 Sep 2012)

Thanks for linking those fox fish. I found the 'Chocolate Puddle' particularly inspiring (read through the whole journal) which has spurred me to add a soil based under-layer to my proposed tank setup. I shouldn't have to worry about the soil causing an ammonia spike since this will all be dealt with during the dry start up.


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## OllieNZ (12 Sep 2012)

On the fish front I'm loving my congo tetras, they dont look like much in the store but once they colour up and their fins develop the look good. Also have porthole catfish and they're an nice alternative to corys.


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