# Advice needed, just brought a new tank :)



## LondonDragon (27 May 2008)

Hi Guys,

Just went out and brought a new tank, a Juwel Rekord 60, 61 x 31 x 36 cm, 54 liters.

The idea for this tank is for my red cheries and other shrimp that I intend to keep. Like CRS and red nose and maybe tiger. Can I mix them all together safely?

Also it comes with 15W light which for plants is not ideal, what could I keep with this? without upgrading? I have an extra starter for an 18w T8 which I could use in the tank. Guess CO2 wouldn't be needed with this low light, could always dose EasyCarbo, will mosses grow well? and crypts? what would you guys recommend for shrimp only tank?

I guess the internal filter would be enough, I have a couple of aqua ball filters also from previous setups that I could use if necessary.

For low planted tank, substrate is not really necessary, might just get a fine black gravel for the tank.

Any help and suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks


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## Steve Smith (27 May 2008)

I'm not 100% sure, but won't red cherries and CRS cross breed?  I think I'm right in saying CRS are just selectively bred red cherries?


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## Wayney (27 May 2008)

Red nose shrimps should be ok with tigers and cherries according to AE.


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## Egmel (27 May 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> Also it comes with 15W light which for plants is not ideal, what could I keep with this? without upgrading?


Well this is what I had before I upgraded and I was growing spiral vallis, cryptocorynes and amazon swords without too much trouble, no CO2 and no ferts either.  Though it was very lightly planted.


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## ceg4048 (27 May 2008)

Paulo, depending on the content of your water supply, low light non-CO2 tanks ought to have careful attention given to substrate. That's where much of the feeding will take place in this regime. You could do treated Akadama (see the JamesC sticky) or you could use baked potting soil under sand or gravel. Oddly this is a great application for Aquasoil as the nutrient drain will be less so it's store would last longer. The 15w plus the 18w T8s would be fine I think.

Cheers,


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## Ed Seeley (27 May 2008)

Cherries won't cross with Crystal Reds, but Crystal reds will cross with Bee and Tiger shrimp.  Crystal Red shrimp are selectively bred Bee shrimp, Red cherries are selectively bred wild _Neocaridina _shrimp.


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## Steve Smith (27 May 2008)

I run 15w with a reflector over a 54 litre growing weeping moss, flame moss and varius crypts and ferns.  Oh, and anubias, though this is slow going.

I was dosing very hap-hazard EI, but now dosing 2ml TPN+ and 2ml of Excel on weekdays.  Growth was pretty good under my hap-hazard regime, but I have a bit of a daitoms issue.  Now I'm getting more into the flow I hope this'll go.



			
				Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> Cherries won't cross with Crystal Reds, but Crystal reds will cross with Bee and Tiger shrimp.  Crystal Red shrimp are selectively bred Bee shrimp, Red cherries are selectively bred wild _Neocaridina _shrimp.



Thanks for that Ed, good to know


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## LondonDragon (27 May 2008)

Thanks for all the feedback guys  much appreciated.

Could I then use Tropica Plant Substrate with fine gravel on top? or Aquasoil would be a better option if so which? Don't know much about ADA stuff, have never used any substrate before.

Clive how thick would the baked potting soil would need to be? Could I dose EI on this tank without CO2 and using EasyCarbo instead?

Steve could you let me know the quatities you were dosing, just to get an idea? thanks

Thanks for all the info on the cross breeding of the shrimp, I will have to consider my selection carefully then.

Many thanks


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## Steve Smith (27 May 2008)

I was dosing (if memory serves) dry ferts at about:

1/2 tsp of NO3
1/4 to 1/2 PO4 
1/4 to 1/2 trace

Dosing every few days.  By no means a good regime though.

Oh, I have inert sand/gravel as substrate too btw


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## ceg4048 (27 May 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> ...Could I then use Tropica Plant Substrate with fine gravel on top? or Aquasoil would be a better option if so which? Don't know much about ADA stuff, have never used any substrate before.
> 
> ...how thick would the baked potting soil would need to be? Could I dose EI on this tank without CO2 and using EasyCarbo instead?



Well since they are about the same price I would get the Aquasoil and use it exclusively. Check AE or TGM for prices There are three color variations. In a low tech environment the metabolic rate is slow enough that substrate feeding is substantial. That means that the time required for root uptake is low enough because the rate of photosynthesis is not nearly as manic as it is under high lighting. You can start the tank off with water changes and excel dosing and then gradually taper both off to zero over a few months, or you can continue both as you wish. 

Excel is really expensive but it is do-able every day or every other day. The dosing schedule doesn't have to be so extreme because of the low light. With a nutritious substrate you would only have to dose nutrients once or twice a week.

If you used potting soil similar depth would work, maybe 2-3 inches topped by an inch of sand or whatever, just to keep from making a mess. Personally I would opt for the AS as it's infinitely easier although infinitely more expensive as well, but this is only a 15 gallon so it won't break the bank.

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (27 May 2008)

Thanks Steve and Clive,

Think I will go down the aquasoil route then, worth a try now in preparation for my large tank which hopefully will get built soon enough. 

Just been having a look at the AE website and I like the colour of the ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia, they have two types the old type and the new version II, does it matter which? Seems like a 9L bag will be enough.

Also they have others like Powder, Sand Special/M/S etc... what are these? 

Thanks for the help and apologies for the million questions.


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## Wayney (27 May 2008)

The amazonia II is aimed at tanks with harder water, apparently origional amazonia soil is prone to go cloudy in alkaline water hence the new one.
As far as I'm aware the power sands help create a bigger bacteria and nutrient store in the substrate when used with AS.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong


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## james3200 (27 May 2008)

Hi London Dragon

I have 2 unopened 9l bags of ADA Amazonia, if your interested, PM me


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## ceg4048 (27 May 2008)

Paulo,
         Forget all that powersand propaganda. Run, do not walk to take up James' Amazonia offer.

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (27 May 2008)

james3200 said:
			
		

> Hi London Dragon
> I have 2 unopened 9l bags of ADA Amazonia, if your interested, PM me


PM sent


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## LondonDragon (29 May 2008)

Got the tank today, didn't get it with the stand as the Juwel stank is not that good, no storage. 
Looking into getting the Fluval Uno 600 stand which is the same dimensions or something that is 60x30cm, its on a 60x30 table at the moment but its too low.

I had a look at the filter and I will get it going with one of my Rio 125 filter sponges and one of the Rekord sponges to help if cycle faster, will also place the other sponge inside the Rio internal filter to get that with bacteria, that should help right?

I might dose this tank with TPN+ and EasyCarbo since I won't need very high dosing, or with TPN+ I don't need EasyCarbo?


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## JamesM (30 May 2008)

Are you still going ahead with your large corner tank?


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## LondonDragon (30 May 2008)

JAmesM said:
			
		

> Are you still going ahead with your large corner tank?


This is just to try and breed some shrimp, will look nice a shrimp only tank. The large corner tank is hopefully going ahead still, I have agree to the quote I received, just waiting for them to finalise things and give me a start date. They taking ages to reply to me, been two weeks without any news on it, sent them a couple of emails this week, fingers crossed they haven't changed their minds about it.


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## JamesM (30 May 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> JAmesM said:
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Shrimp only tanks are fun 

Not so fun when trying to prune and avoid cutting up a ton of shrimplets though


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## ceg4048 (30 May 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

> Got the tank today, didn't get it with the stand as the Juwel stank is not that good, no storage.
> Looking into getting the Fluval Uno 600 stand which is the same dimensions or something that is 60x30cm, its on a 60x30 table at the moment but its too low.
> 
> I had a look at the filter and I will get it going with one of my Rio 125 filter sponges and one of the Rekord sponges to help if cycle faster, will also place the other sponge inside the Rio internal filter to get that with bacteria, that should help right?
> ...



Paulo,
         Here's another perspective. You're well advised to take a deep breath and for the moment completely forget about what shrimp or which fish or whatever.    This is a completely different regime than your EI tank, which is akin to a thoroughbred racehorse. This tank will be more like a Clydesdale plough horse, so you have to think about how it works.

In your EI tank the metabolic processes are rapid. Organic waste production rates outstrip the ability of the tanks inhabitants to recycle waste. This excess waste in the presence of high light encourages algae so you need high flow, high filtration and high water changes. Low light tanks operate more like a sewage treatment plant where the slower waste production is balanced by the recycle rate.

The main engine of this recycling plant is the interaction between sediment bacteria and plant roots. This is why the Amazonia is so important. It is high in nutrients, is made of clay (which is electrochemically root friendly) and has granular size which facilitates flow within the sediment. So from a plants' perspective it's the substrate that needs to be cycled.

The TPN+ that you'll add to the water column helps keep things ticking over and supplements the root feeding. If you add carbon you will boost the metabolic rate and increase the organic waste beyond the equilibrium point so you will have to do water changes. If you don't add carbon then you don't have to do water changes so this is an important decision. You can start off using liquid carbon + water changes to help the plants transition and then taper off both after a month or two adding progressively less liquid. Once the plants and sediment bacteria have adapted to this environment you then have the conditions in which to introduce fauna.

In my opinion, trying to hurry up cycling so you can get the shrimp in is a little bit of "cart before the horse". Low tech tanks are not immune to algae so patience is advised here.

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon (30 May 2008)

Thanks Clive, the idea was really to get things working faster when it comes to overall water quality and plants, I have no intention of adding any fauna until late July/early August.

Great advice though which I wasn't thinking about some aspects of it so all feedback is always good and helps me learn, never had a low tech tank so this is going to be interesting 

Many thanks again


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## LondonDragon (4 Jun 2008)

Just playing around with the new tank, so far added the extra florescent tuve to the tank, the 18w was too big to fit in the hood so had to get another 15w, so now have 2x15w T8.
For filtration going to use the internal filter for the time being, will see if I need something else at a later stage, should be ok for a shrimp tank, I do have a couple of Eheim Aquaballs that I can use if necessary.
Add a black background and also created the mesh for the moss wall that I am also going to setup for this tank, will be great for the shrimp.
The substrate went in this evening, ADA Aquasoil, and was playing around with some bits of wood/rocks I had laying around.

Here some photos:





















Wood and all is not final, was just messing about with the stuff I have to hand.


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## JamesM (4 Jun 2008)

Looking forward to this


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## Egmel (5 Jun 2008)

I like that main bit of wood, it's really structural and creates a nice hidey hole underneath.

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out


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## LondonDragon (5 Jun 2008)

Idea is to cover the wood in different types of mosses. I have 3 types so far! 
Trying to decide if I am going to create a moss wall of Xmas moss or weeping moss! since I have quite a bit of weeping moss I might use that, the portion I got of xmas moss is not that big to great the wall yet.


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## Egmel (5 Jun 2008)

You could have a mixed moss wall, would look especially good if they are different shades of green, would add interest.


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## LondonDragon (5 Jun 2008)

Egmel said:
			
		

> You could have a mixed moss wall, would look especially good if they are different shades of green, would add interest.


Very true, the xmas moss is much lighter than the weeping! might look good to mix them up! thinking of creating a wall for the right hand side of the filter also. Thanks for the idea


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## JamesM (5 Jun 2008)

Go for the weeping moss!


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## LondonDragon (6 Jun 2008)

Just filled the tank last night, I used water from my other tank to fill it up, just wanted to check everything was running properly, going to do another water change this weekend and see if I have time to do some planting


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## LondonDragon (10 Jun 2008)

Found this chart, will be usefull if someone is planning a shrimp only tank too:





Got a couple of plants last weekend for mine, now getting some mosses for the wall and then we will see.
Trying to find some rocks too and better looking wood than what I have on the previous photos.


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## JamesM (10 Jun 2008)

What about the Sulwesi shrimp mate? Aren't they slightly different water conditions? I don't think I've ever seen then kept with cherrys or bees before...

Also, how long after filling will you wait? The AS can throw things silly for the first few weeks, or are you planning lots of water changes?



I don't think you should mix mosses too much tbh.. it might look messy after a while. A full wall of weeping moss looks great (as shown on aquamoss.net and AquaticMagic, here). You could then grow flame moss on small stones, and something stylish and easy to maintain like Fissidens fontanus on the wood.

Throw in some bamboo shelters too. They look cheesy but you can always hide them. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bamboo-Shelter-fo ... dZViewItem


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## LondonDragon (10 Jun 2008)

Thanks James, I don't think the Sulwesi need different water conditions, I don't plan to add any stock to the tank until late July. I have used filter sponges from my other tank as the sponges are the same size to get the filter going and have been doing water changes every other two days, hopefully after 4 weeks the substrate will be ready too.

The idea of the mosses is to create a moss wall of weeping or xmas moss and then use two others on the wood, not much really, I also have a couple of mosses on the other tank. So won't be mixing too many of them in one go. 

Thanks for the bamboo shelter idea, looks interesting.


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## JamesM (10 Jun 2008)

I can also highly recommend the following:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BARRY-WHITE-THE-L ... dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Water-resistant-s ... dZViewItem


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## LondonDragon (17 Jun 2008)

Thanks James 

Just finished planting the tank, created the weeping moss wall to cover the entire back its looking cool.
Covered some tree branches in mosses also and a stone and planted some crypts, java fern and anubias.
Will post some photos once it clears.


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## JamesM (17 Jun 2008)

Coolies, I bet the wall end up great


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## LondonDragon (18 Jun 2008)

This is how the tank is looking after some planting! I don't want a fancy scape, just something that looks ok and is perfect for the shrimp.
















Stones and wood I haven't finalized yet, as before just stuff I had laying around


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## JamesM (18 Jun 2008)

I'm coming to steal your moss wall, its gonna look fab in a few weeks


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## aaronnorth (18 Jun 2008)

looks good, like the last pic, how much moss did you buy to do that wall?


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## LondonDragon (18 Jun 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> looks good, like the last pic, how much moss did you buy to do that wall?


Got an envelope full from Ed  then a donation to UKAPS


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## aaronnorth (18 Jun 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

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how big was the envolope? Jus ased him if he would put me down on the lists?


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## LondonDragon (18 Jun 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> how big was the envolope? Jus ased him if he would put me down on the lists?


It wasn't pretty big but it was pretty full hahaha I will eventually have plenty for forum members also once its starts growing, just didn't want to destry the wall in my main tank to do this one, wouldn't be enough anyway. Just ask Ed and I am sure next time he has some more he will send you some for a donation


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## aaronnorth (18 Jun 2008)

LondonDragon said:
			
		

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I would give a donation, its only the same as paying for it


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## Ed Seeley (18 Jun 2008)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

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I'll be trimming again in a month or so I'm sure.  Keep your eyes posted in the Trade Section.  I'll try and remember you want some Aaron.


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