# What's Wrong With My Substrate (If Anything)?



## jaypeecee (26 Jul 2019)

Hi Folks,

I need help. I have an established planted tank with CO2 injection and custom build LED lighting. I have posted elsewhere on UKAPS about problems with E. bleheri. I am in the process of re-planting some areas of my tank. And that's because I've removed several plants because they were in a poor condition. I cannot get my head around the fact that some of my plants flourish while others do badly. I have so-called easy/average plants, mostly Echinodorus species/varieties.

Recently, I replaced an ailing E. bleheri with another E. bleheri. It got off to a great start producing a new leaf almost every day. Now, a few weeks later, its growth is almost non-existent. It is dark green and some BBA is starting to appear on the leaf edges. It has a Seachem Flourish Tab at its base and I have been adding Flourish Comprehensive to the water column every two to three days. CO2 is typically around 25ppm after stabilization. I have good water circulation - courtesy of a circulation streamer.

OK, that's the current setup. I may be clutching at straws here but I am wondering if the problem lies with the substrate. I have _Tetra Complete_ topped with _JBL Manado_. Is it possible that something is amiss in the substrate? Pockets of rotting/anaerobic substrate in which the roots cannot grow? Insufficient aeration? How do I know if the substrate is in good health? Are there any simple tests that I can do to indicate problems down there in that invisible world? The equivalent of a soil test kit comes to mind.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

JPC


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## Zeus. (26 Jul 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Seachem Flourish Tab at its base and I have been adding Flourish Comprehensive



Which are both micro nutrients but what Macro nutrients are you using ? the name 'Flourish Comprehensive' is misleading IMO 


quote from Seachem site for Flourish Comprehensive
Flourish™ is a comprehensive plant supplement for the natural freshwater aquarium. It contains a rich assortment of important micro elements, trace elements and other nutrients. These include calcium, magnesium, iron and other important elements that have been shown to be beneficial to aquatic plants. For macro element (NPK) fertilization, use Flourish Nitrogen™, Flourish Phosphorus™ or Flourish Potassium™ as needed. 
Unquote 

I would say your substrate is fine ATM


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## alto (26 Jul 2019)

E bleheri isn’t terribly demanding, given suitable substrate nutrients it grows quite well even without added water column fertilizers (assuming some fish in the aquarium) 

Seachem Flourish root tab 


> They contain essential trace elements, amino acids, and vitamins. They are rich in iron, manganese, magnesium, calcium, potassium, inositol, choline B12, biotin, and other factors that have been determined to be beneficial to aquatic plant roots. They contain no phosphate or nitrate



Yet if you watch Filipe Oliveira’s video, note the healthy growth despite no water column fertilizers or water changes during the first month post rescape (substrate is at least one year old before rescape, I’ve not watched the previous set up video recently and can’t recall if the substrate was already used when the Iwagumi was done) 



It is possible for old substrate to become inhospitable to plant growth (I’ve observed this occasionally in the past, with older style substrates that compact - unlikely event with current Aquarium Soils which generally retain interstitial spaces between particles, even after years of use) but it’s unlikely that a basic soil test kit will offer suitable diagnostics 
Sending a sample to a soil testing lab may provide some useful information, but discuss with tech support before sending anything in - less common tests may also be quite costly


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## alto (26 Jul 2019)

Some tank photos would be helpful

I did a quick skim of your previous threads, I assume you’re now removing the sale point net pots from plants and placing plant directly in substrate?


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## Edvet (26 Jul 2019)

Do you have any MTS 


  to help with keeping the substrate healthy?


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## jaypeecee (26 Jul 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Which are both micro nutrients but what Macro nutrients are you using ? the name 'Flourish Comprehensive' is misleading IMO
> 
> 
> quote from Seachem site for Flourish Comprehensive
> ...



Hi Zeus,

Thanks for your reply.

You are correct. Both the Seachem products I mentioned provide micro nutrients, not the macros. But the macros - N, P, K - are in adequate supply from the fish in the tank. In fairness, I failed to mention in my original post that the tank was home to fish. So, nitrate is pretty stable at 20 - 30ppm. Phosphate is typically 0.02 - 0.05ppm. Potassium hardly varies at around 15ppm. On the rare occasions when nitrate level drops, I supplement with Flourish Nitrogen. In this tank, I also have E. chrileni and E. spectre. And they are in excellent condition. That's why I started to suspect the substrate. What makes you say that the substrate is fine?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (26 Jul 2019)

Edvet said:


> Do you have any MTS
> 
> to help with keeping the substrate healthy?



Hi Edvet,

I'm pleased that you asked this question for which the answer is - no. But I was starting to think it may be one way forward. I have hesitated about adding MTS for the obvious reason - I don't want them to take over my tank. I guess I could ensure that they are kept under control with the appropriate choice of loach, for example.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (26 Jul 2019)

alto said:


> Some tank photos would be helpful
> 
> I did a quick skim of your previous threads, I assume you’re now removing the sale point net pots from plants and placing plant directly in substrate?




Hi alto,

Yes, I now remove the net pots and that includes the recent E. bleheri addition to the tank.

I will add some tank photos tomorrow.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (26 Jul 2019)

alto said:


> E bleheri isn’t terribly demanding, given suitable substrate nutrients it grows quite well even without added water column fertilizers (assuming some fish in the aquarium)
> 
> Seachem Flourish root tab
> 
> ...




Hi alto,

So it would be possible to get the substrate tested by a soil testing lab? Would you care to suggest a few names?

JPC


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## Zeus. (26 Jul 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> Phosphate is typically 0.02 - 0.05ppm.



Phosphate seems a bit on the low side - how are you getting the figures for your ppm (*What about Test Kits ?*) Probably cheaper to not bother with tesing and just dose the ferts in excess and weekly WC


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## jaypeecee (27 Jul 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Phosphate seems a bit on the low side - how are you getting the figures for your ppm (*What about Test Kits ?*) Probably cheaper to not bother with tesing and just dose the ferts in excess and weekly WC



Hi Zeus,

Phosphate is measured using https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/3017/jbl-phosphate-test-sensitive. What do UKAPS members advise for recommended phosphate level when not using the EI method?

JPC


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## Zeus. (27 Jul 2019)

jaypeecee said:


> What do UKAPS members advise for recommended phosphate level when not using the EI method?



 Depends on your approach/method. I like/use D Wongs 2hr Aquarist


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## jaypeecee (27 Jul 2019)

OK, here are a few piccies. The first is E. spectre (with a bit of Anubias!), second is E.bleheri, third is E. bleheri close-up and fourth is E. bleheri with E. chrileni in the foreground. Sorry about the poor quality of these photos.


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## Edvet (27 Jul 2019)

Looks like mechanical damage. Any pleco''s?


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## jaypeecee (28 Jul 2019)

Edvet said:


> Looks like mechanical damage. Any pleco''s?



It doesn't look like mechanical damage to me so I'm interested to know why you suggest that. I have one Clown Pleco but he takes little interest in the plants. He prefers to rasp on driftwood, which is very much a characteristic of this species of pleco.


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## jaypeecee (28 Jul 2019)

Hi Folks,

One of the things that my poor quality photos cannot convey is the very slow growth rate now compared to when this E. bleheri was first added to the tank three months ago. During this time, nothing has changed as regards CO2 injection, fertilization or photoperiod. And the other two species of Echinodorus continue to grow rapidly. Surely, it's got to be a problem at the roots of the E. bleheri? In other words - the substrate.

Is my logic flawed?

JPC


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## jaypeecee (28 Jul 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Depends on your approach/method. I like/use D Wongs 2hr Aquarist



I have visited the _2hr Aquarist_ website before. You have now given me good reason to study the choice of fert regimes more closely.

Thank you!

JPC


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## jaypeecee (3 Aug 2019)

alto said:


> It is possible for old substrate to become inhospitable to plant growth (I’ve observed this occasionally in the past, with older style substrates that compact - unlikely event with current Aquarium Soils which generally retain interstitial spaces between particles, even after years of use) but it’s unlikely that a basic soil test kit will offer suitable diagnostics
> Sending a sample to a soil testing lab may provide some useful information, but discuss with tech support before sending anything in - less common tests may also be quite costly



Hi alto,

I discovered the following article written by Takashi Amano many years ago:

http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/mastering-substrate-in-the-nature-aquarium.htm

I am now pretty sure that I have a substrate that, in parts, has "become inhospitable to plant growth". Rather than go to the expense of having a sample tested (and then what?), I feel that I need to take action. And that, unless I'm mistaken, means getting oxygen to the affected parts - indeed the whole of the substrate. For obvious reasons, I don't want to remove everything from the tank and start again. So, I need to revitalize the substrate _in situ_. I could go the natural route and try Malaysian Trumpet Snails or I could try injecting air from an air pump.

I need time to think...

JPC


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## dw1305 (4 Aug 2019)

Hi all,





jaypeecee said:


> I am now pretty sure that I have a substrate that, in parts, has "become inhospitable to plant growth".





alto said:


> unlikely event with current Aquarium Soils which generally retain interstitial spaces between particles, even after years of use) but it’s unlikely that a basic soil test kit will offer suitable diagnostics


I'm with @alto, I don't think the substrate has become compacted and anaerobic.

_Echinodorus spp. _have big, chunky roots and naturally grow in muddy substrates etc. They will have morphological and physiological adaptations to allow them to utilise oxygen poor substrates. For the soil testing you would need to sample the water in the interstitial spaces and get a REDOX value. There isn't any point in conventional soil testing, the preparation process is air drying and sieving through a 2mm sieve. 





jaypeecee said:


> third is E. bleheri close-up





Edvet said:


> Looks like mechanical damage.





jaypeecee said:


> I have one Clown Pleco but he takes little interest in the plants.


That is definitely damage from your _Panaqolus maccus. _They are highly nocturnal and my experience, with both _Ancistrus_ and _Hypancistrus_, is that _Echinodorus bleheri _is their preferred plant to nibble on 





Edvet said:


> Do you have any MTS


I'm a snail fan as well.





jaypeecee said:


> I have hesitated about adding MTS for the obvious reason - I don't want them to take over my tank. I guess I could ensure that they are kept under control with the appropriate choice of loach, for example.


They are easy to remove with baiting at night. My personal experience is that they don't build up into huge numbers. If you did want to control them Assassin Snail (_Clea helene_)  is probably your best bet. Clown Loaches are long-lived, social, potentially massive etc. 





jaypeecee said:


> Both the Seachem products I mentioned provide micro nutrients, not the macros. But the macros - N, P, K - are in adequate supply from the fish in the tank. In fairness, I failed to mention in my original post that the tank was home to fish. So, nitrate is pretty stable at 20 - 30ppm. Phosphate is typically 0.02 - 0.05ppm. Potassium hardly varies at around 15ppm


I might try a complete fertiliser, just to see what happens.

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (4 Aug 2019)

Many thanks Darrel,

What a comprehensive reply! Excellent! Picking up on what I see as the key points you have raised...

[1] I'm unlikely to have an anaerobic substrate. Therefore no need for MTS.

[2] I should try a complete fertilizer. Any suggestions?

JPC


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## dw1305 (4 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> I'm unlikely to have an anaerobic substrate. Therefore no need for MTS.


It is really just a matter of personal choice. I like snails and have them in all my tanks, other people (@Tim Harrison) have much better tanks than I will ever own and they don't have snails.  

If I had to choose only one snail to keep it would be either Red Ramshorn or MTS. If I had harder water in the tanks I'd be very tempted by <"_Theodoxus">_ etc. 





jaypeecee said:


> I should try a complete fertilizer. Any suggestions?


I'd try something like <"TNC Complete">. 

I haven't got a personal recommendation, I tend to use <"whatever garden plant fertiliser"> I can find remaindered at the end of the season, topped up, when necessary by dry salts. The way I look at it is <"all ions are the same in solution">, and that is what really matters. 

I don't encourage people to use mixes including urea, because of the risks involved with ammonia formation. From a personal point of view I think I understand the risks, and I also think they are probably one or two orders of magnitude lower than the risks of using CO2. 

cheers Darrel


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## jaypeecee (4 Aug 2019)

Hi Darrel,

OK, here I go - another list:

(1) No immediate need for MTS but I do keep Zebra Nerites in all my tanks.

(2) Thanks for the suggestion of TNC Complete.

(3) I occasionally use Seachem Flourish Nitrogen but it does contain some urea. Seachem has this to say about it - "It provides nitrogen in both the nitrate form and the plant–preferred ammonium form. However, no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish Nitrogen™ is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants. Ammonium becomes available after conversion of urea (carbamide)".

(4) What do you consider to be the risks of using CO2 - apart from the need to limit dissolved CO2 to around the 30ppm mark? Did you once write an article for Pleco Planet about the effects of CO2 on Ancistrus?

JPC


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## dw1305 (4 Aug 2019)

Hi all, 





jaypeecee said:


> No immediate need for MTS but I do keep Zebra Nerites in all my tanks.


I think Nerites are good algae eaters from a hard surface, but possibly less useful plants. I have soft water, and  tend to like animals that will maintain a population in the tank, so  I haven't tried them myself. 





jaypeecee said:


> I occasionally use Seachem Flourish Nitrogen but it does contain some urea. Seachem has this to say about it - "It provides nitrogen in both the nitrate form and the plant–preferred ammonium form. However, no free ammonia is released because the ammonium in Flourish Nitrogen™ is complexed and unavailable until utilized by the plants. Ammonium becomes available after conversion of urea (carbamide)"


That is back to Seachem's <"advertising skill with wording">.

My guess would be that it is a <"Prime" like situation>. Seachem won't tell you how "Prime" works, but Amquel has a patent and I would be surprised, if in the case of both "Prime" and "Flourish Nitrogen", a compound similar to sodium hydroxymethanesulphonate wasn't involved. 





jaypeecee said:


> What do you consider to be the risks of using CO2 - apart from the need to limit dissolved CO2 to around the 30ppm mark? Did you once write an article for Pleco Planet about the effects of CO2 on Ancistrus?


The risk for me is always asphyxiating the fish. If I was to add CO2 (which I'm never going to do) I would regard 15ppm as my upper limit.

I did write an article, it has had a few different homes, but it is presently at <"Plecoplanet">. It talks generally about the issues of <"keeping rheophilic fish in the aquarium">.Basically fish from cool fast, flowing water are particularly problematic to keep long term, because the oxygen supply *must always *exceed their oxygen demand.  For most parameters you can get away with short periods when levels are sub-optimal.

cheers Darrel  

.


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## jaypeecee (4 Aug 2019)

Hi Folks,

Firstly, Darrel, thanks for your latest reply.

Now, I am left with two questions. Obviously, I failed to see the mechanical damage to the E. bleheri that Edvet noted and Darrel expanded upon. What are the visible signs that I overlooked? Is it the collections of tiny patches on the leaves? I did see these but assumed it was a nutrient deficiency issue. I obviously did not know what I was looking for! The second part of my question is - has this damage (caused by the Clown Pleco) impeded the growth of other leaves?

JPC


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## Zeus. (4 Aug 2019)

Here




and 



Its like the chlorophyll has been sucked out of the leaves leaving just the plants wall wall behind


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## jaypeecee (4 Aug 2019)

Hi Zeus,

Many thanks for your reply. Yes, I definitely have a case of mechanical damage! And I like your explanation - "Its like the chlorophyll has been sucked out of the leaves leaving just the plants wall wall behind".  I'm now making progress.

JPC


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## jaypeecee (1 Oct 2019)

Hi Folks,

I transferred the Clown Pleco to another tank several weeks ago and the mechanical damage to the Amazon Sword has stopped. But, this plant refuses to grow in height. It has approximately eight healthy leaves all of which are roughly 15 cm in height. By now, I would have expected the tips of the leaves to be close to the water surface (35 cm water column height). CO2 concentration is around 30 ppm after stabilization. Elsewhere on UKAPS (but I can't remember where), someone was also having problems getting E. bleheri to grow in height. I seem to recall that too much light was suggested - is that a possibility?

JPC


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## Edvet (1 Oct 2019)

There are two amazon swords, bleheri and amazonica. One grows bigger then the other ( true bleheri is the bigger one as i remember, sadly most swords are  hard to distinguish without the flower, sadly most sellers don't know which swords they sell.


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## jaypeecee (1 Oct 2019)

Edvet said:


> There are two amazon swords, bleheri and amazonica. One grows bigger then the other ( true bleheri is the bigger one as i remember, sadly most swords are  hard to distinguish without the flower, sadly most sellers don't know which swords they sell.



Thanks for that, Edvet. The plant that I bought is from Tropica and it was individually packaged. Its label read Echinodorus bleherae.

JPC


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## sparkyweasel (1 Oct 2019)

Labels can get swapped around. I've got some nice Amazon Swords, but I don't know what species they are, as they were labelled _Crytocoryne moehlmannii_. The shop had a row of them, all labelled alike, so I think they arrived like that, especially as the shop guy was quite sure they were _Echinodorus _sp.


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## alto (1 Oct 2019)

Tropica’s E bleharae is decidedly the “big” one 

Your plant may take longer than a few weeks to recover - having its matured leafs constantly stripped over the last months (?), then putting out new leafs, only to have those damaged as well, means that plant is likely energy deficient (there should be stores of “energy” in the rosette, but sounds like this plant has been struggling to keep leaf production ahead of leaf destruction) 
Emersed the plant can recover more quickly than submersed


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## jaypeecee (3 Oct 2019)

alto said:


> Tropica’s E bleharae is decidedly the “big” one
> 
> Your plant may take longer than a few weeks to recover - having its matured leafs constantly stripped over the last months (?), then putting out new leafs, only to have those damaged as well, means that plant is likely energy deficient (there should be stores of “energy” in the rosette, but sounds like this plant has been struggling to keep leaf production ahead of leaf destruction)
> Emersed the plant can recover more quickly than submersed



Hi alto,

Thanks for the feedback. There is definitely something amiss with the E. bleheri/bleherae but you may be right. The E.Chrileni 20cm away from it is now putting out a flower/runner - and new leaves.

JPC


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