# Dying Amanos



## Gabriela Valdivia (3 Mar 2020)

Hello all,
I have a Fluval Flex 9 gallon low tech planted aquarium.
Regular parameter are within normal ranges (from the charts)
Temperature is 25 centigrades.
I am using Nilocg Thrive (shrimp safe one) once a weak as per indicated in the bottle. I am also doing a 10% water chance once a week.
The problem: once every three weeks I do a 50% water change. EVERYTIME I do this I find two or three Amanos or any shrimp dead.
Nobody else seems to have that problem? 
Once, I had three cherry shrimps and were doing great for thre weeks until I did one 50%water change. And they are dead now. What is wrong?


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## ian_m (3 Mar 2020)

Are you warming the replacement water ?
Are you using a good brand of dechlorinator ?


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## Gabriela Valdivia (3 Mar 2020)

Hello,
Yes, I take temperature before I add it to the tank. I am using Prime to treat the water.
Do you think is the sudden change in water chemistry? Change in Ph?
People say they never have problems with water change and shrimps...


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## Gabriela Valdivia (3 Mar 2020)

I put the Prime dichlorinator in the change water and not in the aquarium.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (3 Mar 2020)

I know nothing about household plumbing in Canada; is it like in the UK where it’s virtually all copper?

If so, is it worth running the tap for a couple of minutes before you use it, just to eliminate the possibility of copper contamination from water that has been sitting in the pipes for a while?


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## ian_m (4 Mar 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> If so, is it worth running the tap for a couple of minutes before you use it, just to eliminate the possibility of copper contamination from water that has been sitting in the pipes for a while?


Please think this myth through....
If copper from the pipes dissolved into the water, would not we all be sitting in puddles of water where all the pipes have dissolved away ???. How come my mates house, re-plumbed in the 1950/60's (yes with 1/2 inch copper pipes, all new plumbing is generally 15mm copper) still works fine without water leaking every where. The green/blue stains you see under old taps (and cheap Chinese knock offs) is where incorrect brass is used for the tap and they suffer de-zincification. Propper plumbing and propper taps, copper levels will be effectively zero.


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## Dr Mike Oxgreen (4 Mar 2020)

ian_m said:


> Please think this myth through....
> If copper from the pipes dissolved into the water, would not we all be sitting in puddles of water where all the pipes have dissolved away ???


Not at all!  We’re talking about minute traces of copper that can cause issues for shrimps. Copper pipes would still last for hundreds if not thousands of years.


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## ian_m (4 Mar 2020)

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:


> Not at all! We’re talking about minute traces of copper that can cause issues for shrimps. Copper pipes would still last for hundreds if not thousands of years


Doesn't happen in UK with UK domestic water. It is an issue with water from wells where pH may be acidic. Higher pH > 6 deposits an insoluble film on the copper. Domestic water supplies are treated to keep a suitable pH,.

Any way just treat the water with Prime and you are good to go.


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## Fisher2007 (4 Mar 2020)

I wouldn't worry about copper from tap water.  The majority of shrimp keepers on here will use tap water and if so you'd see numerous posts about how the copper is the cause of their deaths.  I keep shrimp in two tanks, use tap water, don't intentionally flush the pipes pre water change and have no issue with the shrimps

Granted, by the sounds of things the deaths appear linked some way to the water change but I'd rule the copper angle out personally.  If it were a one off I consider the water company cleaning the pipes as the cause but as it's more than once by the sounds of things I doubt that too

All that said, I'm at a loss re suggestions.  If you're using prime and replacement water is the same temp I'm not sure where else to go


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## Barbara Turner (4 Mar 2020)

Could it be anything else contaminating your water,  I would expect prime to sort things like chloramine out also most heavy metals.
Have you tried testing your water with your standard fish tank kit, In the UK the waterboard test the results and publish the data online for your area not sure if similar is available in Canada?   another thing I wondered about was adding additional prime I know you can safely run up to 5x the standard dose, 

you could try rainwater or RO water but both are hard work..


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> Hello all,
> I have a Fluval Flex 9 gallon low tech planted aquarium.
> Regular parameter are within normal ranges (from the charts)
> Temperature is 25 centigrades.
> ...



Just another thought - are you measuring the Prime accurately with a syringe? Prime is very highly concentrated, so for 4.5 Gal US of water you'd only want half a millilitre (or 9 drops)! If you overdose, as Prime is a reducing agent and it _can_ bind the oxygen in the water.

Do the shrimp swim to the top of the tank after the water change?


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## Gabriela Valdivia (5 Mar 2020)

Sorry for the late reply.
Actually my Prime comes with a drop counting lid. So for a 50% change I put just 6 drops. Is it too little?
No the shrimps don’t swim to the surface. I am really thinking that that chemistry in the water change affects them.
The only other thing I add is the bacteria...
Somebody told me to remove the charcoal filter if I have a planted aquarium. Is it true we don’t need a charcoal element on the filter?


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## Gabriela Valdivia (5 Mar 2020)

THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO ALL. This is incredible!!
I never thought I would have such help.
1.- Ok, I will have my aquarium water tested next time I go to the aquarium store.
2.- for the copper pipes, yes , our pipes are made of copper. Perhahaps I will need to add more Prime.
3.-Maybe I will need to avoid big water changes. Just go for the 25%....
4.- something else wrong with the aquarium? I think you are right: 
all my Anubias have a brown dusty looking spots. Equal for the Cryptos and the moss and all the plants actually.
I only give 7 hours of light and don’t overfeed my fish.
Also, I see like a film on the water of the thermometer and filter compartment. And my water is not crystal clear. It has a light green tint (That is why I was making the 50% water change)
Maybe the filter is not performing well....
By the way, this is my first aquascaping experience so all advice helps.


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## Fisher2007 (6 Mar 2020)

Can you post some photos of your tank?


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## jaypeecee (6 Mar 2020)

Hi @Gabriela Valdivia 

In the first instance, I think it's worth taking a look at this:

https://aquariumbreeder.com/how-copper-affects-dwarf-shrimp/

Unfortunately, it doesn't make specific reference to Amano Shrimps (Caridina multidentata). But, what it does demonstrate is the range of copper toxicity levels for different species of shrimp. The range is from 0.03 - 0.30 mg/l. I don't know about Canadian water regulations but, in the UK, the maximum permissible level of copper is 2 mg/l. So, aquarium tap water conditioners would need to be better than 98.5% effective to ensure that the resulting water is safe for shrimps. If Seachem _Prime_ achieves this, then copper may not be the issue.

However, the fact that your water has a light green tint is odd. And the dusty brown spots on your plants. Let's see what the test results show when you've had the chance to get your water tested at the aquarium store.

JPC


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## Aqua sobriquet (6 Mar 2020)

I’m primarily using rainwater for my 37 Litre Nano although I do top up occasionally with tap water. When I do a water change it’s very rarely more than about 10%. I don’t use any water conditioners. I’m giving the tank a shot of Tropica Specialised Nutrition once a week or so. My Cherries are breeding like made at the moment. I have a few Amano’s, several adult cherries and dozens of young cherries at the moment.

A 50% water change is far too much in my opinion. I’ve only ever done changes like that when I’ve had a problem.


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## Protopigeon (6 Mar 2020)

If possible, I would do more regular WC's but much smaller percentage - say 15% per week, sounds like the shock is getting to them, shrimp tend to dislike change


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## Aqua sobriquet (6 Mar 2020)

Protopigeon said:


> If possible, I would do more regular WC's but much smaller percentage - say 15% per week, sounds like the shock is getting to them, shrimp tend to dislike change



Whenever I do a water change the shrimp wiz around for a while afterwards so they do seem to notice.


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## Gabriela Valdivia (6 Mar 2020)

Ok, I will post the results for the tests when they are done.
Yes, in my case, if there is something in the water, I will make smaller water changes.
I am posting images and video. Here they are.


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## Gabriela Valdivia (6 Mar 2020)

I went to have the water tested. High nitrates. I don’t understand because I have so many plants and on l’y a Betta with five Neons and I only feed a tiny pinch once a day. Last water change was Monday.


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## Gabriela Valdivia (6 Mar 2020)

Photos showing the oily film on the water...


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## alto (7 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> Hello all,
> I have a Fluval Flex 9 gallon low tech planted aquarium.
> Regular parameter are within normal ranges (from the charts)
> Temperature is 25 centigrades.
> ...



Fertilizer - is this a dosage for a high tech fast.  growing tank where 50% weekly water changes are common? Or is this the directions for a low tech slow growing tank
(your plant growth looks amazing for a non-CO2 Flex (which has relatively low light)

Temp - you could decrease this for shrimp (they’d likely prefer 21-22 longterm) but Betta would be less thrilled, I’d likely try 24

Regular parameters - not sure what you’re referring - tap water parameters (check with your local water/municipality for detailed water analyses, they should be available for at least the last 10 years, indicating averages, seasonal variations, daily data collections - municipal water in Canada is constantly being tested) or tank parameters???

You don’t mention if you check tank vs tap before you do those 50% water changes
George Farmer does 70-80% water changes on his tanks, has large active shrimp breeding population (mostly cherry I think, though there may be some Amano) and doesn’t have any issue
I also do very large water changes without shrimp loss
Some people are very conservative with regards shrimp and water changes (and some shrimp demand conservative environs, eg, Sulawesi species (and rift lake species), extreme line bred variants)
If you purchased your shrimp through a local shop, discuss their shrimp care (more applicable if shop maintains shrimp in display aquariums)

10% weekly water change is a very low percentage when maintaining a planted tank - this small amount of removed water won’t impact parameters much, but also limited removal of any possible unwanted components (such as increasing nitrogen’s, DOCs related by plants etc etc)
Instead you might try 35% weekly water changes
BUT
Until you sort out the shrimp water change issue, I’d suggest daily 10% water changes, then after a couple weeks, do a 35% change - if all seems well, try twice weekly 35% water changes, then transition to weekly 35% water change
Don’t move to larger water changes until you know more about your tap vs tank water

A knowledgeable aquarium shop should be aware of tap water parameters and any local issues with water quality, your municipal site may track any water repairs etc in the district, also flooding etc


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## alto (7 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> THANK YOU VERY MUCH TO ALL. This is incredible!!
> I never thought I would have such help.
> 1.- Ok, I will have my aquarium water tested next time I go to the aquarium store.
> 2.- for the copper pipes, yes , our pipes are made of copper. Perhahaps I will need to add more Prime.
> ...



I’ve lived in 100 yr old homes with the original copper pipes, and very soft acidic tap water - no shrimp deaths in my aquariums 

Sounds like you may have a diatom algae in your aquarium - can you brush always the brown spots?
Though it may also be sediment related - microfines in tap water or from aquarium soil depositing on plants (I once thought I had the worst diatoms ever ) 
Again the 10% water changes tend not to be sufficient for “cleaning” of an aquarium (even with plants you still want to remove the substrate debris)

As for the “light green tint” - depending on your location and water source, this may be “green water” which is often a Spring Thing in my aquariums (re tap water source)
You might add some Seachem Purigen or Matrix (carbon) to your filter - much more cost efficient than those Flex branded products - to improve water clarity etc
Check the Seachem product pages and FAQ etc to choose which product - you might also contact Seachem tech support via the discussion board with aquarium details/shrimp issues for product recommendations  


Filipe Oliveira’s excellent video


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## Gabriela Valdivia (7 Mar 2020)

Hello!
Thanks for the video, I learnt a few things. I was surprised to se Mr, Oliveira using those old type filters. i will get my municipality water information.
Maybe there is a chemical that reacts with one of the Fertilizers and creates a toxic product increase during water changes...


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## Gabriela Valdivia (7 Mar 2020)

Alto, thank you.
also for the Fertilizers, it is Nilocg Thrive for low tech aquariums and it comes with liquid carbon.
My plants got like that within three months I planted it. (You can see the photo in the section “from this to this”
I have Fluval Substrate. So yes, the growth was AMAZING and fast. Then the fast growing plants stoped growing and were getting brown so I started dosing with Thrive.
-I put the temp at 24.
-I was talking about tank parameters.
-And no, the brown dust cannot be removed, it is permanent. I think too that is a deposit of something in the water.
- I use the.  Fluval complète kit to test my aquarium water and  I compare my results with their charts. Apart from the temperature and the chlorine, I never test the fresh water before putting it in the aquarium...
- So I went to the aquarium store yesterday so they could test my water. They said everything is within acceptable range but Nitrates were high. So I came home and did a 35% water change.I also bought a bit of floating plants to help with the Nitrates.
I asked them about the shrimps and they said it is probably the change in Ph as they are sensitive to it...
So I guess problem solved?
But I still have problems with the weird oily film on my water and the brown dusty stains / deposits on my leafs..


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## alto (7 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> I asked them about the shrimps and they said it is probably the change in Ph as they are sensitive to it...
> So I guess problem solved?


Maybe
That seems a rather a rote answer
(I’ve had shops insist that my pH 6.0 is going to kill my fish even after explaining  that I keep mostly wild caught species from low pH natural waters  and that I MUST start using some sort of Buffer Up chemical to keep my tank at pH 7.4 etc  )

Is there not a pH test in the Fluval Complete kit?
It seems an easy check

Note that most healthy livestock is well able to manage pH swings of approximately 1 pH unit

I would not use floating plants in the Flex, when they grow quickly (and utilize nitrates) they will also be covering the entire surface, and below water plants will be significantly shaded
And it’s not as if you are only keeping very shade tolerant plants such as Anubias

The oily film seems unusual for a Flex, do you have a filter outflow directed towards the surface for surface “agitation”


I’m somewhat sceptical about which liquid carbon would be present in the fertilizer, and subsequent stability over time
https://www.nilocg.com/shop/thrive-c/

OK it’s not the same type of composition as Seachem Excel, so ignore my stability concern, instead pickup Seachem Excel and use as an algecide 
Read through the Seachem Flourish Excel page directions, FAQ etc; you can also do a Search of their Discussion Forum for more information and user questions

You might try some firm but gentle brushing of the Anubias leafs to see if you can physically remove some of the algae, then follow this up with increased tank maintenance (daily water changes), and Excel

Your observation of initial good growth from plants for 2-3 months, then significant slowed growth is not that unusual for low tech aquariums (one suggestion is that emerse grown pot plants initially use stored nutrients)
George Farmer did a videos series on a low tech AIO system
(you can pick some of these up via his ukaps Profile page of “all threads by ... ”, also his YouTube channel (choose oldest first as most of these are 2015-2017))


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## alto (7 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> think too that is a deposit of something in the water.


Knowing your local water parameters would be helpful, you should be able to link a municipal report

While water dependent deposits can occur on plants, this is quite unusual


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## alto (7 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> Maybe there is a chemical that reacts with one of the Fertilizers and creates a toxic product increase during water changes...


this too would be a rare occurrence 
Some precipitation in hard water is not uncommon, but a toxic byproduct would be unusual 

I suggest contacting nilocg in this regard - go through technical support rather than sales


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## alto (7 Mar 2020)

Gabriela Valdivia said:


> was surprised to se Mr, Oliveira using those old type filters


This was a change when he moved the tank to his kitchen counter - it would’ve been awkward to run the original canister filter (there are a few videos following the development of this tank)

Apologies over the multiple replies, sometimes I cannot maneuver (properly) within the reply box


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## Gabriela Valdivia (8 Mar 2020)

Hi!
It is actually better if replies compartmentalize the information cause it makes it easier for me to read and take notes so, no worries about multiple replies.
I noted all the ideas and advise and will follow through.
One important point you made is the one about Nilocg Thrive because when I dose with it , next day yo see this brown deposits on the leafs. I will get in contact with them.
THANK YOU for the time you took to help me. I will follow through with all the advise!


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## Matt @ ScapeEasy (8 Mar 2020)

I suspect it’s all a bit simpler than this personally...

If the LFS is concerned about nitrates this potentially indicates they are extremely high. I have had a dosing issue with a complete fertiliser like yours which led me to the same scenario - dying amanos. And in fact this is how I became aware of the issue.  It is curious as to why the water change would lead to deaths... a sudden change in parameters is our assumption. Unfortunately I can’t advise from direct experience here as I had only the two amanos and had lost them both by the time I had diagnosed the issue but I suspect the high nitrate may have led to the initial vulnerability in the amanos and this problem may possibly remain if you are still undertaking reduced water change volumes. This would indicate to me that the plants you have in your tank are not up taking the nitrates you are dosing as quick as you are adding them. You don’t mention the plant species you have but if they are predominantly slow growing species this is most likely the case and the solution would be to vastly reduce your dosing to allow the nitrate levels to slowly reduce over the next few months with your water changes. Once you are in a more stable position you should then be able to increase the water change volume slowly, each week look for any concerning changes in behaviour in your amanos as you increase the % changed. Also if they moult then cease dosing your ferts that week and skip a water change as again they will be extra vulnerable during this time. 
In summary:
Step 1 reduce dosing significantly and test nitrate levels regularly to monitor them coming down (may take many weeks but given your past experience, important to do this slowly)
Step 2 when nitrates stable, begin to increase water change %, keep monitoring nitrate and watch for any convening behaviour change in the amanos
Step 3 when able to control nitrate rise between water changes to less than 20 ppm you could start to increase Fert dosing levels.

reather than use excel or another form of liquid carbon as algae control which ultimately is a very dangerous chemical. You might also like to complete a blackout on the tank. 4 days with no sunlight at all ( wrap tank in a blanket and done even peak in) and see where that leaves you first.


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## jaypeecee (8 Mar 2020)

Hi @Gabriela Valdivia

Did your fish store give you a figure for the nitrate in your tank? If so, what was it? And is this the test kit you are using:

https://fluvalaquatics.com/us/product/master-test-kit/

If so, it includes nitrate and pH. That being the case, you could test both the pH and nitrate of your tap and aquarium water. May I suggest you do this and, along with the fish store nitrate figure (?), we can then take it from there.

One other thing - which substrate material are you using? This may not be important but I like to get 'the full picture'.

JPC


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