# How Many Rams in a 200 litre?



## Ray (27 Nov 2008)

How many Blue German Rams (_Mikrogeophagus ramirezi_) should I get for my planted 200L tank?  I'm thinking 2 pairs - will there be enough space?  Tank mates will be Ottos, various shrimp and a school of rummy nose and false neon tetras.  

Also, I've little knowledge of Apistogramma but is there a variety I should consider instead that looks as good and has as much personality?

Do Rams, Apisto's and other SA chiclids get on together?  Could I also keep them with some checkerboards, for example?


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## Thomas McMillan (27 Nov 2008)

With Cichlids, it depends more on dimensions to be honest, but I would say two pairs is fine in a 200l unless you've got some real messed up dimensions going on.

I'm not sure about Apistos - I've never kept them. Regarding other Cichlids, as long as you don't mix South Americans and Africans, you'll be okay but I'm not sure whether you should mix Dwarf Cichlids with other Cichlids. 

Hope this helps.


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## Joecoral (27 Nov 2008)

A pair of rams and a pair of apisto should get along fine in a 200L, as long as there are plenty of caves/rocks/breaks in the territory, 2 pairs of rams should be ok too


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## vauxhallmark (27 Nov 2008)

With a 200l tank you'll only really be looking at dwarf cichlids (up 10cm). Is your tank something like 100 x 45 x 45?

I would think that's big enough for 2 pairs of rams - especially if tlants and hardscape break up the view along the bottom of the tank.

All the Apistogramma's are stuffed with personality - my personal favourite is Nijsseni - but then I'm a sucker for anything with panda-like markings (the courting female is yellow with big black spots). Most apistos breed in a cave. Rams breed on a flat stone. There are loads of good books about dwarf cichlids, ask for one for christmas! I haven't had an cichlids in my tanks for years, and I really miss them. My housemates often ask if I'm going to keep them again, and they're not even fishkeepers. If you want to win someone over to fishkeeping (eg a partner, housemate), let them see a family of cichlid babies being shepherded round the tank by a doting parent. 

Mark

PS cichlids like rams, where the sexes look very similar, are more likely to share the parenting - cichlids like Apistos, where the males look very different from the female, are more likely to have different roles in the parenting, or for just one fish to do the parenting on their own. Kribs would fit in your tank too, but I'd only keep one pair of them. Once you start looking at what's available, and after you've had your first youngsters you will be hooked on whatever cichlid you keep.

PPS checkerboards would be fine too


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## Ray (27 Nov 2008)

vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> With a 200l tank you'll only really be looking at dwarf cichlids (up 10cm). Is your tank something like 100 x 45 x 45?.  I would think that's big enough for 2 pairs of rams - especially if tlants and hardscape break up the view along the bottom of the tank.


Yes, 90x45x50H, its full of crypts and ferns so it will eventually be a jungle.  Could I keep 2 pairs of Apistos instead of rams?


			
				vauxhallmark said:
			
		

> All the Apistogramma's are stuffed with personality - my personal favourite is Nijsseni - but then I'm a sucker for anything with panda-like markings (the courting female is yellow with big black spots). Most apistos breed in a cave. Rams breed on a flat stone. There are loads of good books about dwarf cichlids, ask for one for christmas! I haven't had an cichlids in my tanks for years, and I really miss them. My housemates often ask if I'm going to keep them again, and they're not even fishkeepers. If you want to win someone over to fishkeeping (eg a partner, housemate), let them see a family of cichlid babies being shepherded round the tank by a doting parent.


This is all very helpful Mark, thank you.  Just checked this lunchtime, my LFS has some very small and cute yellow rams from Czech ("buy me", they whisper), plus Apistos Agasszii, Borelli, and Cacatuoides, but they say they can get most things if I can wait.


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## jay (27 Nov 2008)

I would not keep any 2 different pairs of apisto's in any size tank. Once the males spot each other it could turn messy real quick.
The same with an apisto male and any other dwarf cichlid males in my experience Ray, they can be very aggressive. 
I remember having my wild cacatoides male rounding up 4 sub adult discus.. this wasn't even during breeding!!

In 200L you could stretch to 2 pair of ram's but be prepared to get them separated if need be. They are very characteristic fish with differing personalities. 
Have you looked at Laetacara's at all as dwarf cichlids? Similar to rams but really peaceful, even relatively peaceful to other cichlid's during spawning.
I have a pair of dorsigera with a pair of apistogramma trifisciata in the same 120cm tank and they are fine.

Whatever you for, a harem (1 male, 2-4 females) of checkerboard's will be great with any pairing.


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## Ed Seeley (27 Nov 2008)

In a 90cm you are probably best with just two pairs.  Rams would be good, but personally I'd go with some West African cichlids.  They beat the South Americans for personality and interest hands down IME.

On quantities it really depends on what you choose.  You'll only be able to have 1 male of most Apistogramma species and unless you choose radically different species from different complexes they will fight each other.  Personally I'd get a large group of one species, say two trios of A.borelli which is pretty peaceful and see how the males and females interact!!!

The last thing is that the dwarfs will definitely impact on your shrimp population IME.  They don't seem to eat adults but a fair percentage of the babies disappear in my tank with 4 A.agassizi 'Double Red'


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## Ray (28 Nov 2008)

Hi Jay, Hi Ed, thanks for your answers!  I can imagine your Apisto rounding up the discus like sheep...!  But they are complex, VM is right, I need a book.


			
				Ed Seeley said:
			
		

> On quantities it really depends on what you choose.  You'll only be able to have 1 male of most Apistogramma species and unless you choose radically different species from different complexes they will fight each other.  Personally I'd get a large group of one species, say two trios of A.borelli which is pretty peaceful and see how the males and females interact!!!'


Now I'm confused - I can only have one male, but you suggest two trios - which I take to mean 1 male, 2 females which would mean 2 males 4 females!?


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## Ed Seeley (28 Nov 2008)

Ray said:
			
		

> Hi Jay, Hi Ed, thanks for your answers!  I can imagine your Apisto rounding up the discus like sheep...!  But they are complex, VM is right, I need a book.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said _most _species!!!  There are a few where you can fit more in such as borelli and IME A.eremnopyge.  I had two male eremnopyge in a 2 footer for a while.  However with agassizi I wouldn't try more than 1 male in a four footer!  You also really need to make sure there is loads of cover in the tank.  If you want a peaceful tank then get one trio, for more interest try more, but be prepared to back-track if things go wrong....


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## ice (5 Dec 2008)

I kept a pair of rams and a pair of cockatoo dwarf cichlid in a 240lt without any issues just a little show boating at each other from time to time. Good luck


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## mjw1476 (31 Dec 2008)

i know your ost was a lil while ago but ive got 3 breeding pairs of rams in a bare 4ft tank with no problems at all. they stick to themselves and simply chase the others away when they have swimmers, at which point i remove them. they are very easy fish to breed its just raising thats the hard bit, if you get a pair that do it for you, then youve hit the jackpot! id like to know where you got you rams from though, im after some wild or f1 females as i have some beautiful longfin males but have had problems with them dying with bacterial infections in the past, i just dose heavily with myxazin and increase the oxygen in a separate hosp tank!

as for mixing with apistos ive had 2 pairs of rams in a planted rio 180 along with a trion of nijssenis for some months with a little squabbling but this is what you would expect as they are cichlids. like my discus, they are always rucking with no major casualties.

the only advice i would give is to buy them with no more than 2 weeks difference as the will get very defensive as it will be deemed their teritory, then you have to remove them and disorientate them by moving the tank around and add them all together as i had to find out, the laborious way!

hope this helps


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## Ray (1 Jan 2009)

That's very helpful thank you.  I've not got them yet, I bought 12 Rummy nose tetra's which came down with whitespot scotching my plan to add a dozen false neons and then Xmas hols came & I want to be around the first 2 weeks after I add new fish.  My LFS gets the Czech rams and they seem feisty in the store, so hopefully no issues..

Do they get on with angelfish or altums?  I'm assuming no problem.


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## mjw1476 (1 Jan 2009)

cant say ive ever kept them with angels but ive kept them with discus with no problem. they inhabit different columns of the aquarium and both are greedy feeders so you should encounter any problems with fighting of lack of feeding. rummies are nice fish when they have settled and really colour up!


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## Wilis (3 Jan 2009)

Hi, I'm planning on keeping a slightly larger group of rams,possibly ten, in my new tank with my discus, I haven't decided as yet on exactly which species, probably Bolivian (Microgeophagus altispinosa) as they are supposed to be very peaceful in groups & good 'community' fish. In my experience cichlids of the same size tend to recognise each other as a potential threat but dwarf cichlids & fish such as discus or angels have no idea they're in the same family & don't seem to bother each other. Obviously you do get the odd beligerent character from time to time! 
I've kept apistogramma cacatuoides in a species tank in a pair & in with discus,where I had 2 males & 6 females & they bred in both very happily.(Love those fish hence the tatt in the profile pic-well part of it anyway!) As long as there are plenty of places to hide & the tank is big enough for them to split their territories they should be fine, although you may find that if they do breed they can become a little agressive but it's usually tolerable as long as it's not aimed at one fish in particular & also if you have quick shoaling species such as tetras that even with diligent parents the fry could be eaten esp. at night so you may have to remove them. But you'll never regret having any cichlids in your tank-esp dwarves-they're such characters they're addictive!
Will


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## Thomas McMillan (3 Jan 2009)

^ 10 is a lot of rams, considering I think each pair usually takes up a territory of about 60 x 30cm


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## Wilis (3 Jan 2009)

Hi, I'll begin with ten - only if they're Bolivians, as they will all be juveniles, if as they mature they become territorial I will remove 2-4 fish, they are easier to sex once they get older & may pair off. A lot of opinions suggest that they do well in small groups, such as on the cichlidforums website among other places & my friends at one of my lfs (they have around 60 years experience between them) feel that this should be acceptable. Their tank mates will be about 15 at present(fully grown)amano shrimp, 6 leopard cories, a gold nugget plec, 2 small bristlenose ancistrus, a shoal of around 20 cardinals, 4 SAE's & a pair of my discus - most likely blue discus like the one you see below,side on facing right. My new tank is about 83 gallons (uk) or 380 litres & is 48"x24"x20" & I'll do around 1/2 to 2/3 (2 x 1/3) water changes a week,as I do with all my discus.
Regards
Will


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## Ed Seeley (3 Jan 2009)

A large group in a large tank (bigger than 200l) can work as long as you have the ability to remove fish once they pair or get aggressive.  The fish can then naturally pick out their partners and the extra competition from their conspecifics mean that the pair bonds are often very strong and they make great pairs.  But you've got to be able to remove any fish getting a hard time into a spare tank quickly.


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## Wilis (3 Jan 2009)

Thanks Ed, I'll be keeping a very close eye when I get them- I can't help it-so fascinating!
Regards
Will


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