# Nutrient deficiencies?



## Regent (5 Apr 2022)

Hi all,
I seem to have some deficiencies developing.. I'm using an all in one ei mix with nitrates at 25ppm, potassium 30ppm,  phosphate 8ppm, magnesium 10ppm, iron 0.5 ppm (mix of buffers as my water has a GH of 9.8). Made with acidified DI water one litre lasts two weeks.

Other thoughts, this could be flow related? ( I know there is detritus build up in this area.)
Co2? My drop checker is green sat right by the staurogyne and co2 is going in via a reactor.
This is my staurogyne repens which is demonstrating interveinal chlorosis and I've noticed the same starting on some of the new  crypts growth. Not sure what to modify!





However my floaters look pretty good! At least to my eyes..



Any help much appreciated!


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## GreggZ (5 Apr 2022)

Regent said:


> Hi all,
> I seem to have some deficiencies developing.. I'm using an all in one ei mix with nitrates at 25ppm, potassium 30ppm,  phosphate 8ppm


At that dosing you do not have any nutrients deficiencies. In fact that dosing is very high in the scheme of things.

Are the floaters above the S. Repens?


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## dw1305 (5 Apr 2022)

Hi all,


Regent said:


> However my floaters look pretty good! At least to my eyes..


They do, which would suggest that it isn't a nutrient deficiency so <"either light, or CO2">.

cheers Darrel


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## Regent (5 Apr 2022)

Nope, the floaters are at the opposite end of the tank and the repens is on the side of the tank facing into a very (annoyingly) bright kitchen so if anything is getting far more light than I'd like!
I've just moved a powerhead for now, I'm hoping to pick up a pair of gyres if there's a good Easter sale!

I wonder if it's that they get too much natural light before the co2 comes on.. I'm suspecting a mix of flow and co2..


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## X3NiTH (6 Apr 2022)

From the looks I’m gonna put my eggs in the ‘Zinc deficiency’ basket! There is probably enough in the water column to keep the floaters happy but maybe not enough for the Stauro possibly as you have noted it’s receiving extra ambient light.





The Effect of Light in Zinc Deficiency in Subterranean Clover


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## Simon Cole (6 Apr 2022)

That "deficiency" looks localised. If it is zinc, then switch from an all-in-one fertiliser to two separate ones. I don't use all-in-one mixes because it goes against everything I have ever read about fertilisers, specifically Zn-Phosphate complexes and nutrient lock-out. It is as if these manufacturers have seen fertiliser compatibility charts. All commercial growers will use two tanks to separate mixtures, and many watering systems won't even allow these fertilisers to mix at the point of application.


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## GHNelson (6 Apr 2022)

Have you tested the Nitrate level?


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## Regent (6 Apr 2022)

GHNelson said:


> Have you tested the Nitrate level?


I hadn't, I've pretty much stopped all testing, good shout. Sadly I think it's safe to say nitrates are not the limiting factor.. If anything there's too much nitrate!


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## Regent (6 Apr 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> From the looks I’m gonna put my eggs in the ‘Zinc deficiency’ basket! There is probably enough in the water column to keep the floaters happy but maybe not enough for the Stauro possibly as you have noted it’s receiving extra ambient light.
> 
> View attachment 185971
> 
> The Effect of Light in Zinc Deficiency in Subterranean Clover





Simon Cole said:


> That "deficiency" looks localised. If it is zinc, then switch from an all-in-one fertiliser to two separate ones. I don't use all-in-one mixes because it goes against everything I have ever read about fertilisers, specifically Zn-Phosphate complexes and nutrient lock-out. It is as if these manufacturers have seen fertiliser compatibility charts and have still chosen to adopt a negligent attitude. All commercial growers will use two tanks to separate mixtures, and many watering systems won't even allow these fertilisers to mix at the point of application.


Zinc is not something I'd have even considered! 
It's an easy fix to switch from aio. I'll do a macro only batch on my dosing pump and then dry dose the micros for a few weeks and see ...


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## Simon Cole (6 Apr 2022)

Credit to @X3NiTH . I would eliminate phosphate for a few days if you can, possibly with a water change. If you've got a testing kit for phosphate and the levels are high, I would guess that it would continue to lock-out zinc. I do macros on alternating days with the micros, so you might be able to get the macros to skip every couple of days, or longer if you want a period of enrichment. With S. Repens and crypts I have skipped macros for a week without much bother.


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## dw1305 (6 Apr 2022)

Hi all, 


Simon Cole said:


> I would eliminate phosphate for a few days if you can, possibly with a water change.


Zinc (Zn) is <"slightly mobile"> within the plant, but I don't actually know what that means in practice in terms of the plant being able to repair damaged tissue. 

If it can't repair the tissue? The _Staurogyne repens_ leaves will remain chlorotic, even when Zn becomes available, and only new leaves will be normally green. 

cheers Darrel


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## Simon Cole (6 Apr 2022)

@dw1305  Here is a good "overview" paper:  (PDF) Zinc in plants - An overview

There are quite a few ideas on how it is translocated, and that paper is from 2012, but I think there is enough mobility to get the job done. My feeling is very much that and phosphate-bound or organic-bound zinc could be released from within plant tissue over time. Interesting to note that the repair processes of PSII are dependent upon Zinc (page 3). I have observed complete reversal of chlorosis in certain terrestrial species within four weeks. There can still be distortion of upper leaf cells if it was already present before remediation, mainly due to the impact that limitation has on the cell walls. Even if it was fully chelated, I would not expect plant-available zinc to survive beyond a few days in an all-in-one fertiliser.


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## Regent (6 Apr 2022)

Thanks Simon and Darrel for your input.
I'm running high phosphates anyway, which has interestingly stopped all GSA. 
It may have complexed my zinc (and iron) though. I wonder how @LondonDragon  avoids this as my aio is based on his recipe.

I love it when people link evidence to my posts, makes it feel much less like total guess work!

I've ordered a phosphate test kit out of interest.
The water company are currently flushing pipes in my area, so as soon as I'm sure they're done, big water change and new batch of two part fertilizer coming up!


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## Regent (7 Apr 2022)

And I think we have a winner...
Tap phosphates




Tank phosphate



I'm guessing this is binding iron and zinc.
Doesn't explain why the floaters are doing fine, though they're in the path of the fertilizer


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## Regent (7 Apr 2022)

Interestingly I just got a reply from my water company for the last quarter average I probably don't need to add much other than potassium and trace... Given I do a 50-80% water change everyweek.
(makes me wonder if if some people who lean dose just have quite rich water to begin with)
pH 7.12 -7.34
Nitrates 18.12 mg/l
Phosphate 1.743 mg/l
Potassium 4.29 mg/l
Magnesium 42.41 mg/l
Calcium 69.9 mg/l
Carbonate  CaCO3 174.7mg/l
Bicarbonate 213.19 mg/l

Iron < 8ug/l
Mn < 0.7 ug/l
Zn -unknown
Bo <0.024 mg/l
Cu 0.0065 mg/l


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## dw1305 (7 Apr 2022)

Hi all, 


Regent said:


> Nitrates 18.12 mg/l
> Phosphate 1.743 mg/l
> Potassium 4.29 mg/l
> Magnesium 42.41 mg/l
> ...


Your water is interesting. The hardness and macro-nutrient content is pretty standard for S. England, but the large amount of magnesium (Mg) is unusual for the UK, and is because of <"the geology"> with Permian and Triassic age rocks laid down <"in desert  conditions">.

cheers Darrel


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## Regent (7 Apr 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Your water is interesting. The hardness and macro-nutrient content is pretty standard for S. England, but the large amount of magnesium (Mg) is unusual for the UK, and is because of <"the geology"> with Permian and Triassic age rocks laid down <"in desert  conditions">.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I live in Kenilworth so you're spot on with that! This is supply zone ZWA13, more interestingly noted in the report -The supply to this area is from surface water treated at works in Worcestershire.
P.S That geology link is a really interesting read!


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## dw1305 (7 Apr 2022)

Hi all,


Regent said:


> P.S That geology link is a really interesting read!


Geology helps a lot with working out what your tap water is likely to be like.

Most UK hard water comes from Chalk (Cretaceous) or Jurassic Age Limestone aquifers and all permanent hardness (dGH) tends to come from calcium (Ca).

You only get much magnesium (Mg) in the water where the limestone was laid down in an <"evaporite basin"> and has undergone <"dolomitization">.

cheers Darrel


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## si walker (7 Apr 2022)

Hi.
Very interesting this.
So if I am also adding extra PO4 to combat a bit of GSA should i be concerned about possible deficiencies because of this? 
I dose all in one with extra PO4.

Cheers


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## X3NiTH (7 Apr 2022)

Regent said:


> Doesn't explain why the floaters are doing fine, though they're in the path of the fertilizer



 Because they are gaining access to the metals they need before they precipitate out. The extra ambient light hitting the Stauro has increased this plants demand for Zinc beyond what it has access to.


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## Regent (7 Apr 2022)

Thanks  zenith, that explains it.
I'm just looking for zinc with an alternative chelate to see if that helps as well as splitting the micro and macro, I use Fe eddha, but struggling to find anything other than edta.


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## X3NiTH (7 Apr 2022)

I would shield that side of the tank from ambient light first to see if that works first, obviously stop dosing phosphate you have enough out the tap. No need to go looking for rare chelates for one overdriven plant!


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## LondonDragon (7 Apr 2022)

Regent said:


> I wonder how @LondonDragon avoids this as my aio is based on his recipe.


I have not seen any difficiencies in my plants to be honest and I do not test my tap/tank water or even look at the water report for my area.
I pretty much started with the standard EI formula and over time have reduced certain salts to see how the plants react, I usually go via what the plants tell me.
I find that when I have difficiencies on plants almost every time is due to fluctuations of CO2 rather than any fertelizer (i have in the past dozed 10x the recommended EI levels just for the sake of it and had no algae issues)! I have struggled for a long time to get a constant flow of CO2, I have tried 5 different type of stone diffusers (ADA, Twinstar, Tropica, CO2 Art, unbranded), and have tried two in-line diffusers too, they all start getting clogged quickly and are not reliable. I only resolved this with the Reactor as there is nothing to get clogged other than the filter itself but that is at a much slower rate than the actual diffusers. If you having issues I would recommend also looking at the CO2 distribution and consistency.


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## Happi (7 Apr 2022)

@Regent have you tried adding some DTPA Fe yet?


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## Regent (7 Apr 2022)

X3NiTH said:


> I would shield that side of the tank from ambient light first to see if that works first, obviously stop dosing phosphate you have enough out the tap. No need to go looking for rare chelates for one overdriven plant!


I already have a blind for that side of the tank for the middle of summer, I'll deploy it early this year..


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## Regent (7 Apr 2022)

LondonDragon said:


> I have not seen any difficiencies in my plants to be honest and I do not test my tap/tank water or even look at the water report for my area.
> I pretty much started with the standard EI formula and over time have reduced certain salts to see how the plants react, I usually go via what the plants tell me.
> I find that when I have difficiencies on plants almost every time is due to fluctuations of CO2 rather than any fertelizer (i have in the past dozed 10x the recommended EI levels just for the sake of it and had no algae issues)! I have struggled for a long time to get a constant flow of CO2, I have tried 5 different type of stone diffusers (ADA, Twinstar, Tropica, CO2 Art, unbranded), and have tried two in-line diffusers too, they all start getting clogged quickly and are not reliable. I only resolved this with the Reactor as there is nothing to get clogged other than the filter itself but that is at a much slower rate than the actual diffusers. If you having issues I would recommend also looking at the CO2 distribution and consistency.


This what I find interesting about this hobby and why I mentioned you! There were and are flow issues in that area of the tank which I've addressed with a short-term wavemaker fix. Hopefully a pair of gyres such as those @Zeus. uses will be the long term solution. 

Turning over 400l in a deep peninsula tank has proved very tricky though total flow is at  8000lph ((theoretical) 2x aquael ultramax 2000 plus power heads) at the moment. I still get dead spots.
 Co2 is injected via the same reactor as you use, I believe. It's vastly improved delivery. I was struggling with other methods as well.

I'm trying to be logical and not change too much all at once!

If I'm honest my best results are still in my low tech soil tanks..


Happi said:


> @Regent have you tried adding some DTPA Fe yet?


I use a mix of Fe edta, Fe dtpa (from chempak sequestered iron) and Fe eddha mainly the last as it's light and pH stability are best yet it is still available to plants at lower pH (at least in terrestrial crops!)


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## si walker (8 Apr 2022)

Regent said:


> If I'm honest my best results are still in my low tech soil tanks..


Thats interesting and maybe quite hard to admit!


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## Regent (8 Apr 2022)

More frustrating 😂
I think can see why though. The soil/low energy tanks have much better controlled lighting, and far lower flow, though they're much shallower. 

I switched this tank to high energy in the hope it would help with the crazy amount of natural light it receives. As you can tell I'm having mixed success!


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## Regent (22 Apr 2022)

So I thought I'd post a little update on the s.repens in case anyone else has similar issues.
Here is what has changed for the last two weeks.
I've simplified my dosing after getting more detail from the water company. I'm dosing dry salts as a single front loaded dose straight after a water change to bring my macros to my ei targets and so I can remove phosphate from an AIO.  I've leaned them out based on the water report (essp the phosphate and removed all extra Mg)
My dosing pump is now adding just micros on a daily basis.
I've but the summer blind on the side of the tank getting most of the sun.

All new growth looks healthy. Some of the older leave have greened up to some extent. 
Growth throughout the tank is faster and looks healthier.

Thanks, everyone for the help. Feel like I'm making progress!


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## Lemonhands (3 May 2022)

Hey thought i might contribute to this thread as noticed a few small issues with plants showing nutrient deficiencies - i have identified them as potassium and magnesium deficiency (maybe even some manganese because of pin holes... but then im still relatively beginner in plants). I am currently daily dosing Tropica Premium on a heavily planted tank with some fast growing plants... and then realised it is like the completely wrong thing for the job 😅. Tbf my plants were doing fairly well until fairly recently on it, but it clearly isnt cutting it any more.

Id probably prefer to go down the path of getting a good 1 or 2 general ferts for a heavily planted tank rather than trying to navigate lot of different nutrient value combinations to get exactly the required doses, but im certainly open to learning. Does anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks


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