# Endlers



## Polly (17 Sep 2009)

Bought a few Endlers last week.  They were gorgeous and seemed very healthy and lively but after the first couple of days one by one they have all died, usually one or two a day.   They were feeding fine, no loss of vitality, no loss of colour.  The only indication was that they would suddenly stop swimming and skulk in the plants about half an hour before they died.

No ammonia or nitrite in the water and low nitrates.  The only thing I can think of was that maybe the water didn't suit them.   What water parameters do those who keep them successfully have?    

Looking online, there is quite a wide variation in water pH etc quoted so I'm a bit confused as to what has caused this.  The staff at the shop assured me my water would be fine for them   

Would really like to be able to keep and these lovely fish but don't want to even _think_ about getting more unless I can figure out what went wrong.


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## bugs (18 Sep 2009)

You don't say anything about your tank, however, given the nature of this forum I'm guessing it's planted and you're dosing CO2? CO2 alters PH so it's quite possible that the PH of the water in the shop is quite different to that of your tank. How long did you spend acclimatising them to your water and mixing small amounts in the bag before releasing them in to the tank?


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## Polly (18 Sep 2009)

No CO2 

The tank they were in is planted but not high tech      pH at 6.8, hardness around 18DH, 3KH, water company add something to harden the water but won't say what, but it comes out of the tap at pH 7 and overnight goes down to 6.8         Temperature was 24 but I raised it slowly to 26 thinking maybe they were too cold.

Water in the bag tested the same as water in the tank - apart from lower nitrates in the tank, but still took about 3 hours to acclimatise them with an airline drip.  On release they showed no discomfort and immediately started picking at algae on the rocks and plants etc. and showing off to each other.

one of the photos I took


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## aaronnorth (18 Sep 2009)

i used to have endlers until they finally inbred and became deformed.

they were in a planted tank (the 60l in my sig) which was
pH6-7 depending on the time of day
KH 8
GH 12

going off what my fert added to the water:

6ppm NO3 daily
0.5ppm PO4 daily.

that isnt taking into account what is in my tap water which i believe is loaded with N&P anyway.

They are a fairly easy fish to keep, i started with 3 (1M, 2F) and ended up with about 30.


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## Polly (19 Sep 2009)

Checked today at another branch and asked what pH etc the water is where the Endlers are kept and are BREEDING in the tank, they tested it in front of me    - very close to mine, pH 6.8, GH 14, KH @ 6 - I don't think it's my water.  Forgot to say - no ammonia or nitrites either - first thing I test for if there's a problem   

Will contact the shop tomorrow and ask if they'd like to have the dead ones back   


aaronnorth

That's weird if your water is loaded with N and P - aren't there limits ?   According to my waterboard report, the N and P in our water is so low it's 0.0-something ppm        Mountain moorland water 

Thanks for giving your water parameters it confirms my suspicion that there was something wrong with the fish


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## clint24 (20 Sep 2009)

Hi mate I had the same problem to.I spoke to my lfs(not where i bought them from though)& he said it might be their diet & so he recommend a vegetable  base food(as they do eat algae),he also recommend adding a couple of female to keep them in their prime.I got a new batch of endlers fed them a vegetable base food as well as normal food & it works 3 months on & all still alive & with the females their colours have came right out.Hope this helps.


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## Polly (20 Sep 2009)

Thanks for that Clint   

The tank I put them in had short 'fuzzy' algae on most of the hard surfaces which they picked at with obvious enjoyment.  Their colours were fantastic, the black really black and the green and orange really bright, this is what I found most puzzling - had they been actually sick they wouldn't have been so lively or had such excellent colour  :? 

I didn't have any females tho as there were none in the tank - the shop had been sent only males  :?    They didn't seem stressed by this tho - mainly they spent their time picking at algae, but they were quite young - just over 1cm.


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## aaronnorth (20 Sep 2009)

the limit is 50ppm for Nitrate, the avergae in my area is 33ppm.
phosphate is unregulated in tap water, so it varies quite a lot, but i think the average is 3ppm.


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## Polly (20 Sep 2009)

Wow ! that is high to be coming out of the tap   

Do you use a nitrate resin to reduce it, or rely on the plants to munch it up?


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## aaronnorth (20 Sep 2009)

Polly said:
			
		

> Wow ! that is high to be coming out of the tap
> 
> Do you use a nitrate resin to reduce it, or rely on the plants to munch it up?



only plants, i have had other non-planted tanks, I used to use test kits when i first started in the hobby, and according to the NO3 kit it was 100ppm>
just recently i have had a cichlid tank which was very heavily stocked too.

Fish can withstand NO3 levels into the hundreds, some the thousands. fry and salminoids are the most senstive which affects them at approx 60ppm which is still fairly high to most people who know otherwise.

the reason for this is that test kits measure NO3 as Nitrogen. so to get Nitrate alone, times the figure by 4.4 and you get NO3ppm.

so measuring NO3 from a test kit, say you get 20ppm NO3-N, x4.4 to get NO3 = 88ppm

higher than you first think 

thanks, Aaron


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## Polly (21 Sep 2009)

Now you've really confused me (which isn't difficult    ) 

As I understand it, by the time Nitrogen is present, the nitrates have gone?  as nitrates are broken down into nitrogen gas by anaerobic bacteria  :?   

Also, when researching terrestrial fertilizers, total nitrogen was expressed and given a value, but then was broken down into Ammonia and Nitrate figures.   So if the nitrate tests only show _total _nitrogen, they _could_ be measuring Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate together?  - although in a cycled tank I would not expect to see Ammonia or Nitrite - as it should be processed by bacteria, so that would leave Nitrates   

See, I told you I was confused


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## JamesC (21 Sep 2009)

aaronnorth said:
			
		

> the reason for this is that test kits measure NO3 as Nitrogen. so to get Nitrate alone, times the figure by 4.4 and you get NO3ppm.


Not sure what test kits you use but all the ones the ones I've come across measure NO3 and not NO3 as N. So if your test kit reads 20ppm then you have 20ppm NO3 plus or minus some %.

What you may be getting confused with is that NO3 test kits measure total N as mentioned by Polly and not just NO3. Not 100% sure they measure NH4 but they do measure NO2 and NO3 amounts. The first part of the NO3 test kit converts the NO3 to NO2. As NH4 and NO2 figures are small in aquaria compared to NO3 figures they don't affect the result significantly.

James


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## Polly (22 Sep 2009)

James,

does that mean I was sort of right then??

<faints clean away>


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## JamesC (22 Sep 2009)

Polly said:
			
		

> does that mean I was sort of right then??


Spot on


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## aaronnorth (22 Sep 2009)

JamesC said:
			
		

> aaronnorth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ah, ok. probably where i was going wrong then, luckily, this was the first person i have explained this too!

i apologize polly for confusing you,


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## Polly (23 Sep 2009)

> Spot on




WooHoo !!    glad to see the old grey matter is still working   

I think I've found the reason for the deaths - whitespot!   

Just talking to a friend and they bought some from the same tank, didn't quarantine, their Endlers died and now they have whitespot in the same tank   

I should have guessed really, but there was no sign of it so it didn't occur to me     I'm currently running the tank they were in at 29/30 degrees to make sure there's nothing left


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