# More Algae Advice Please



## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

Been battling with a bit of BBA see post below, spot dosing seems to be helping with that.

Now i have this to deal with?














This is from my rio 180

10 hour lighting period with standard juwel lamps, with a 4 hour break

Juwel internal filter with 1500lph powerhead
Fluval 305 External Filter

40ltr weekly water changes with sand vac.

Filters cleaned when needed(when they slow down)

40ml every other day dosing of Potassium Nitrate Potassium Phosphate GH Booster and Trace on alternate days.

8ml daily dosing of Easycarbo(just finished with excel) to help deal with BBA.

Amonnia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
gH 6
kH 0/1
temp 24c
pH 6.8

Any advice


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2008)

Are they the T5 lamps.  Whats the total wattage.  
Is easy carbo the only source of carbon or are you injecting?

Andy


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

yeah T5's just the standard one, 30w each so a total of 60w so about 1.5wpg

yes just easycarbo, no co2 being injected.

JOHNNY


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2008)

Someone will shoot me down but IMO T5 lights with reflectors are much better than the T12 that the WPG rule was based on. maybe as much as x1.75 (x2 if they are HOT5!!!

This is just me 'guestimating'  therefore I would work on the prinnciple that you have the equivalent to 2.5ish WPG against the old rule which would put you in the medium to high bracket which would run a lot better with CO2 and EI or PMDD+PO4 dosing!!!

I though 180Ltrs was 48USG which would make you 1.25WPG (2.2WPG)

Andy


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2008)

First thing I'd do is clean the filters more regularly.  Algae is very easily triggered by ammonia and the best way to keep ammonia under control is a nice, clean bacteria filled filter.  At every water change I'd clean the top sponges by cleaning them in tank water you've removed to remove this potential ammonia source from the tank before it completely breaks down.

I agree with Andy about the T5 thing.  I've heard from APC that you need to multiply the WPG by 1.2 with T5s to get a 'real' level of the light produced.  (I think this does assume good reflectors too though).  I think adding CO2 would be a huge help to this tank.

Try and remove as much as you can every time you change the water too.

Good luck.

Edit: Oh and the standard aquarium lamp size is T8, not T12 Andy, but I'm sure that was just a typo?  T12s are even less powerful as there is a higher re-strike and I think they use more energy per unit of length?


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2008)

It wasn't a typo.  

I was meaning that the WPG rule was calculated on T12s.  I wasn't referring to the original T8s in the Juwel.  

Have you found that thread on APC.  Ive been looking for it for months and all I can find is the one with the half finished chart.  Theres one somwhere that has a definition of the multiplications (although it wont be accurate it is a reference at least)  

Andy


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2008)

Sorry mate,   

I'll have a look, on there now...


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

Thanks

what I meant was with the filters was that I strip them down when the flow slows down, I do regular sponge rinsing ect. every week of two.

I do have reflectors in which are pretty new.

Would stripping out the affected plants and treating with Potassium Permanganate help as well as cutting off the affected leaves, or just taking them out all together?

JOHNNY


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

would adding anymore fast growing plants help out?

JOHNNY


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2008)

Here it is Andy, I think.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... riums.html

It's a sticky in the 'Science of Aquatic Lighting' section.


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> Thanks
> 
> what I meant was with the filters was that I strip them down when the flow slows down, I do regular sponge rinsing ect. every week of two.
> 
> ...



Right, sorry that wasn't clear to me.  That sounds good then.  

Taking off the worst affected leaves would be a good idea and adding some fast growing stems too.  Hygrophilas will soon mop up any extra nutrients and aren't too fussy about lighting IME.

I've never used PP so can't help you there, but does spot treating with Excel/EasyCarbo not knock this algae back?


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

yeah sorry I wasn't that clear either

PP is just like bleach solution people use but isn't suppose to damage any stems and leaves as badly, I treat my plants with a bath of this to remove any snails eggs or other nasties.

I have only started spot treating the BBA in the last 3 days seems to knock it back quite well. not tried on the other yet, is it likely to work on that too?

Cheers

JOHNNY


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> I have only started spot treating the BBA in the last 3 days seems to knock it back quite well. not tried on the other yet, is it likely to work on that too?



I thought it was effective against a number or different types of algae.  I'm not sure whether this Cladophora is one of them, but high Excel can kill 'Moss balls' and they are Cladophora sp.  (I'm not sure that algae is Cladophora, but it does look a bit like it to me!)

I'd spot treat it too and see what happens!  Worst case it carries on growing and you have to use PP.


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

Yeah will do, see what happens, pretty disheartened about this algae, tank was looking great till this started, I suppose I wanted natural, I got it :? 

What other fast growers do you recommend?

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## Ed Seeley (13 Jan 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> What other fast growers do you recommend?



Pretty much any easy stem plant!  I grow Cabomba, Rotala and Mayaca in highish light.  To be honest I like Cabomba so much and it grows so well for me that I often use that.  I think it likes the soft water.

I've just found Hygrophilas bomb proof so recommended them first.  There are some pretty nice ones around now, it's not just polysperma!!!  I've got _H.lacustris_ and _H.sp.'Pantanal Wavy'_ in my new tank.

But just use any stem plants you like the look of that don't need high tech conditions.

As you don't use CO2 you may want to put a few floating plants in as they will grow rapidly using atmospheric CO2.


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## ceg4048 (13 Jan 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> Yeah will do, see what happens, pretty disheartened about this algae, tank was looking great till this started, I suppose I wanted natural, I got it :?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> JOHNNY



Hey Johnny,
                     Here is some radical advice: If you run a non injected tank then stop the water changes.   

Barr's treatise on non-injected tanks indicates that each time you change the water you alter the CO2 content. This disrupts the stability of CO2 triggering the BBA. You may also want to consider a daily 3X Excel or Carbolife overdose for a few weeks.

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

Thats pretty much what Diana Walsteads approach seems to be too, reduce the water changes and let stuff happen, not sure what don't think I read that far yet  

Overdosing x3 won't be a problem then, well I guess you wonuldn't suggest it if if was  

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (13 Jan 2008)

The overdosing only seems to be a problem for liverworts, bladderworts, and possibly vals. Pellias, Riccias and UG therefore don't like it. As Ed says, moss ball will die because they aren't moss at all but instead a form of algae. Most stem plants will appreciate it. Sorry, I should have qualified the statement.  

Problems occur when trying to combine high tech and low tech methods. Since this is a low tech tank it's better to take things more slowly. I'm not sure therefore that using fast growing plants is necessarily the best way to go because fast growing plants typically require high nutrients and CO2. An exception as Ed says are the Hygrophillas which do well under most any condition.

In low tech tanks, as long as you restrict the light the ammonia production feeds the plants and there is less danger of algae blooms. You only need to dose once a week or so. The plants effectively recycle organic waste. The dosing is therefore only supplemental. Once you turn up the lights though you are in a different regime where ammonia production is problematic and dosing/CO2 becomes the primary food source.

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

thanks for the reply.

I think i have basically bought this on myself from the reasons you stated above, Dosing once a week with Excel, flourish and Iron everything was going ok, some defficiancies in the plant leaves( i believe) I'm thinking I should just go back to my very low tech approach and be happy with what I have.

Maybe I should strip the tank down and start again?

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## GreenNeedle (13 Jan 2008)

Tom has often suggested on TFF why overdose at all.

He says a tank is for long term so just go by the bottle and keep it going for longer.

I agree with CEG about the non CO2 approach with no water changes unles necessary although he does advocate this with soil or with leonardite underneath a substrate.

Always worth a try.

Andy


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## johnny70 (13 Jan 2008)

I don't believe the levels of micro or macro nutrients are being overdosed, I think that that approach is very wasteful. I though that my plants did seem to be suffering so then started thinking about adding the extra micro and macro nutrients.

I'm not seeing any algae in any of the other 5 tanks I have running, all are done the same way with dosing, cleaning, lighting etc.

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## johnny70 (17 Jan 2008)

Bloody stuff is getting worse been overdosing x3 everyday.

Not happy. any other suggestions?

Will see about the algae eaters next week.

JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (17 Jan 2008)

Johnny, you've only been doing the overdose for 4 days. Normally you don't start to see results until 2-3 weeks. In the meantime manual removal and lighting reduction can help.

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (17 Jan 2008)

ahhh. that long, fine then, forget I said anything, I was expecting result straight away  

I'll be more patience. 

Will a black out help?

JOHNNY


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## johnny70 (18 Jan 2008)

forgot to add, the algae seems to be eating away at the affected leaves. is that normal? it to the extent now that some look like lace  

JOHNNY


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## stevet (18 Jan 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> Will see about the algae eaters next week.
> 
> JOHNNY



Used to think that algae eaters were very quickly weaned off algae and only ate granules meant for my discus. I once had occasion to take the algae eaters out of my tank for some time - boy was i wrong. Those fish do a day-on-day cleanup job that you never notice until they arent there. I would def recommend siemese algae eaters for your situation. Maybe a bristlenose too. Certainly some consider these fish an unwelcome disruption to the tanks aesthetics, but as i dont give a stuff about being that anal about my tanks then i am ok with them being there.

Be careful not to buy the siemese flying fox isntead of SAE's - they can be more aggressive and territorial. I think they also grow bigger and may cease eating algae at all. Like in all things though, there will inevtably be someone out there who has one that does a fantastic job on algae! Not been my experience though.


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## ceg4048 (18 Jan 2008)

johnny70 said:
			
		

> forgot to add, the algae seems to be eating away at the affected leaves. is that normal? it to the extent now that some look like lace
> 
> JOHNNY



Yes that's normal for algae. The plant continues to decline and the algae gets fed. Double whammy. That's one reason manual removal of affected leaves is so important in the battle. :idea: 

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (18 Jan 2008)

Ok thanks, some of the plants are so bad now, probably just take them out and get rid?

Will a bleach dip help the ones that aren't too bad like my anubias? to say its a slow grower its at least tripled in size and doesn't have a huge amount of algae on it.

Should I take my reflectors out for the time being?

JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (18 Jan 2008)

Hi Johnny,
                 Bleach dips are controversial because they can do as much damage to the plant as to the algae. You also typically have to uproot the plant to do it which I don't believe helps a plant already under duress. Others may have a different perspective on the dip, but I would be much more inclined to do an excel spot treatment. Perhaps you can shut the filter(s) down for a few minutes and using a syringe, apply excel to the leaf.

If you are an extremist, you could try lowering the water level to expose the plants and apply the excel directly to increase the effective concentration. Replace the same water that you took out, remember you don't want new water which would disrupt the CO2 levels.

As SuperColey1 pointed out, this is long term so you should resist the urge to start nuking your tank with Intercontinental ballistic missiles. Stability is the key so that each "new" thing that you do stresses the plants and forces them to adjust to the new environmental conditions. Lighting reduction is generally the safest "quick" fix which results in lowered stress. 

I would therefore say yes to the temporary removal of the reflectors.

Hang in there mate 8) 

Cheers,


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## GreenNeedle (18 Jan 2008)

Been there done that.

If you bleach your Anubias they will start to turn white/yellow and over the space of a few days disintegrate!!!

I did it with some Anubia petite a few months back.

It did kill the algae though. lol

Andy


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## johnny70 (18 Jan 2008)

What about potassium permangante?

I have used that for snail eggs before

JOHNNY


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## johnny70 (19 Jan 2008)

Thanks again for the advice.

Reflectors are now off! still triple dosing the excel stuff. some area's where i directed the dose onto leaves, wood etc seems to be dying back, but some plants it has taken over completely so I will strip them out and see if there is anything I can save from them.

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## johnny70 (22 Jan 2008)

Fianlly good news, the BBA has started to die off   and the hair algea is also starting to go, having moved the reflectors seems to have helped, not dosed anything but easycarbo.

Bought some amano's and 3 SAE who are in Q/T for the time being, hopfully they will hepl any outbreaks in the future.

JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (22 Jan 2008)

Hi Johnny,
                 Great news mate!   Just to be clear though, SAE's can never prevent an outbreak. The key to preventing algae outbreaks of any kind will be, in order of importance:

1. Appropriate light levels.
2. Stable and adequate CO2/carbon levels.
3. Appropriate nutrient dosing.

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (23 Jan 2008)

thanks, good advice, hopefully I can get some advice on what will be more appropriate so I dont mess up like this again   I bought the SAE because I like them not just for algae eating, though i will admit they moved up my wanted list quickly  

JOHNNY


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## johnny70 (23 Jan 2008)

A thought, would the addition of my reflectors and under dosing of nutrients cause an outbreak of algae like the one I've just had? just lay away last night thinking???

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (23 Jan 2008)

Hi,
     Well, In absolute terms reflectors alone wonÂ´t necessarily induce algae. ItÂ´s best to think in terms of the light intensity versus the amount of CO2/nutrients being dosed for that light level. High light levels cause a high demand for nutrients/CO2. ItÂ´s very difficult to say in any one tank what light level will result in which demand because there are so many variables. ThatÂ´s why the Watts per Gallon WPG rule of thumb was developed. At WPG between say 1 and 1.5 you could typically get away without injecting CO2 and the nutrient demand is relatively low. Unfortunately, the WPG rule was developed before T5 lights were invented. ItÂ´s estimated that T5 plus reflectors increase the intensity of light by as much as a factor of 2 to 3 when compared to T8 or T12 lights used in the original WPG calculation.

This means that many cross the threshold of CO2 injection requirement without realizing it. If you are at or near the CO2 injection threshold therefore, yes, removal of the reflectors could conceivably bring you below the threshold.

Underdosing almost always results in poor plant health and subsequently, algae. Again, itÂ´s difficult to quantify underdosing because dosing must always be in relation to the light level. Flow, number of plants, substrate type and other factors also contribute and complicate the issue. Severe underdosing causes an immediate impact whereas slight underdosing may not be that noticeable.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (31 Jan 2008)

Thanks again for the in-depth reply

The algae seems to have relented now, still overdosing on easycarbo at the moment, now my question is;

how do I go about reducing the easycarbo level without upsetting the balance? should in reduce by 1/3rd for a week or two, then reduce by a further 1/3rd, so I would be dosing 4ml daily??? currently dosing 12ml daily

Cheers
JOHNNY


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## ceg4048 (31 Jan 2008)

Hi Johnny,
                  Well BBA is Carbon related so really the only options you have are to either inject CO2 or to lower the light further if you wish to reduce the easycarbo dosing. You've already removed the reflectors so that will help but it's impossible to tell from long distance whether this by itself will be enough to stop the return of BBA. You may want to have a look at some CO2 kits. They are expensive but so is easycarbo.  

Once the algae is all gone your plan seems pretty good but I would wait 2-3 weeks before changing the dosing. No easy answer to this one. Just be prepared for the possibility that 12 ml daily (or some value greater than 4ml daily) may be required for this tank configuration.   

Cheers,


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## johnny70 (31 Jan 2008)

Ok thanks, so basically see how it goes, if it comes back increase the levels again

Super!

Thanks for all the advice

JOHNNY


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