# Zanguli's NA 90x45x50



## zanguli-ya-zamba (20 Sep 2013)

So finally here I am starting my journal_ _.

A month ago I have received my first Optiwhite tank, a _NA_ tank with the Movel wide cabinet and a SunFluor hanging linght. It took me a while before taking decision to bring such a nice tank to Congo. After talking by mail and phone with NA Portugal (great service), I took the decision to do it. I do not regret one second that I made this choice. The whole set is fantastic, very good quality.
So tank at home, now I needed hardscape, went on the shore of the river down stream of Kinshasa (Kinsuka rapids) where I know that the sand have good grain size and at the same place I have take the stones, that have a very nice texture and color.

*Spec:*
Tank: NA 90x45x50 cm Optiwhite
Light: NA SunFluor 4X36W 8000 k hanging at 40 CM from water
Filter: Fluval FX5
CO2: Up aqua atomizer FE 5 Kg
Substrate: Congo River sand
Hardscape: Kinsuka stones (Congo River) wood (unknow)

My sister kindly came yesterday with her Camera (Canon 5D° so I can start learning how to take pictures. I didn't had a lot of time because after 30 min power went off, so sorry for that pictures that are not top level like a lot of members pic in this forum. But I will learn slowly how to shot perfectly.

Hera are some shot of the scape, I will plant it tonight or on monday.

Front View



Angle View



Side View



Rocks details




Let Me know what do you think about it, I am open to all critics (that's what make us better in realization).


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## virgojavier (20 Sep 2013)

Love the rocks! I will keep an eye on this thread.
Regards
Lukasz


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## nanocube (20 Sep 2013)

Nice aquascape but IMHO put in some nice shape roots.
Thanks
Tom

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## Reuben (20 Sep 2013)

Looking good, could be a real winner once it's planted.  Only suggestion would be for you to use some of the coarser/larger sands you have and put the large grained stuff in the back right corner graduating the grain size getting smaller toward the front.  I just think this will add more interest and look more natural, this is the way it tends to be in a river, whereas a beach (sea) tends to have a homogeneous mass of the same grain size sand.

Of course you could be planting it for all I know


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## James D (20 Sep 2013)

Really like those rocks!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (20 Sep 2013)

Planting :

- Foreground will be planted with HC. I hope that it will cover all the flat part and covering the bottom of the rock barrier. I will do my best this time to succeed with this plant. I tried twice and didn't have good result with it. I have been talking with expert here and they have given me the best advices possible to success with it. Hope that I will aply everything and that it will work. Good flow/distribution down there, water change, pruning etc.... My worries are for the left part of the foreground because outlet will be just on top of it so I hope that distribution will work there. we will see.

Midground (slope): All the slop will be cover with Staurogyne even in between the rock and wood, to have a nice green rocky hill. 
							   The bottom of the top stone will be hide by the small Crypt Petchii (it will help to softening the transition between short stauro and the height of the stone)

Background : Around the top stone and on far left just around the small wood I will be planting different crypts (Mi Oya, Undulata, legrois)
					   Behind stone and crypt, I will plant a stem, but I don't know which one, I have too much choice in the pond hahaha. Need a help on this please.
					   See side view, behind that long wood I wanted to plant rotala Macrandra and trim it to keep it short (10 cm max), but I don't know if it will work. I don't really know what	I can put there to add a nice effect without adding too much height and so break the hill effect. If you have advices for that place I will be very happy.

I will proceed soon to planting and take pictures.

Thank you very much to follow and for your comments.
Regards 
Zanguli


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (20 Sep 2013)

Ah and I have forget to say, The wood will be cover by moss that I will trim to keep it short and dense. 
The cutting on the top of the long wood will be also cover. The bottom of the middle wood where it bends I will glue 2 anubia nana.


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## Nice (20 Sep 2013)

hello

those rocks are pretty unique, so this means you will have a unique scape. i wish you could put 1 or 2 bigger stones.

Show us the overall look of the system. 

cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (20 Sep 2013)

virgojavier said:


> Love the rocks! I will keep an eye on this thread.
> Regards
> Lukasz


Hi Lukas,
thanks very much, I know these stones for years and I don't know why I have never use it !?
cheers



nanocube said:


> Nice aquascape but IMHO put in some nice shape roots.
> Thanks
> Tom


 
Hello Tom,
this the only woods I have, it is quite hard to find good shape wood here. My mother have a huge roots system at home, i will try to convince her to give it to me.
thanks



Reuben said:


> Looking good, could be a real winner once it's planted. Only suggestion would be for you to use some of the coarser/larger sands you have and put the large grained stuff in the back right corner graduating the grain size getting smaller toward the front. I just think this will add more interest and look more natural, this is the way it tends to be in a river, whereas a beach (sea) tends to have a homogeneous mass of the same grain size sand.
> 
> Of course you could be planting it for all I know


Hi Reuben,
I hope it will be a winer .
You are right about the grain size, but the only thing is that the right side is a view side. The door of the house is just on this side so I would prefer uniformity on this side. 
Thanks for the advice !!! I will keep that in my mind for a next scape.

regards


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (24 Sep 2013)

Hi members,

Friday I have plant the tank .
i have plant it according to my plan, I only miss to plant behind the top stone, because i still don't know which stem to put. i am thinking about ludwigia arcuata because it will let flow pass easily through it due to the space shape of that plant. I was also think about rotala green to add a nice green touch up there, but for flow purposes i am not sure.
I have to go back to the pond because i need more staurogyne on slope, I still miss some small spot where I have to add it, like at the bottom of the slop.
The staurogyne around the stones and on the slope have add a really nice effect. It has revel the texture and the color of the stones. Plus flooding the tank have really enhance the stones. 
I am sure you all thinking "why he didn't put picture grrr" this is because I was out of town for the week end and cameback sunday night and was sick on monday.
So tonight i will make new pic. But please put in your mind that it still miss the stem plants. and need to grow because a lot of crypt had suffer of melting before putting it in the new tank 

I still have to monitor CO2 (Ph reading) to see how it "dissolve" in water. For that I will need a full day at home. But yesterday I had the time to took reading 1,5 hours before lights on Ph was 5,4 and at lights on Ph 5,1 and after 3 hours after lights on Ph 5,1. But I will need to see what is the Ph just before CO2 on.

I am quite surprise how strong is the light, hope it will be ok to start. 2x36 W at 40 cm of the water for 200L (52 G) but this is without sand and stones.
Hope I will have more feedback on the tank.

So guys tomorrow hope you will have new pictures.

best regards


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (7 Oct 2013)

Hello, 
I had the chance to be at home for a full day, so I have taken some ph reading to see how CO2 is doing in the tank and I am not happy at all. 
Tank is growing slowly now 3 weeks... I have done the first trim of the Staurogyne to induce horizontal growth. Some of the crypts are recovering and now are sprouting new leaves. 
a big part of the HC have melt (yes I know CO2 reason) but an other part have settle and now srout some new leaves, and it is growing horizontally (good thing).
so here are the Ph reading:

Initial ph (tank water rest over night) : Ph 7,3 
11:45 --> PH 5,88	   CO2 OFF 
12:00 --> PH 5,60		CO2 ON   (I don't understand that drop without injecting ?????)
12:35 --> PH 5,33		 35 min injection
12:50 --> PH 5,18		50 min injection
13:00 --> PH 5,15		 1 h injection
13:15 --> PH 5,08		 1h15 m 
13:30 --> PH 5,00		 1h30 M
13:45 --> PH 4,98		 1h45 m
14:00 --> PH 4,95		 2h00 m
14:30 --> PH 4,85		2h30 m
15:00 --> PH 4,80		 3h00 m  LIGHTS ON
16:30 --> PH 4,6
20:00 --> PH 4,3			 CO2 OFF

As I wasn't happy of results of the first three hours I didn't really pay attention to the rest of the day. So I clearly have a distribution problem. It takes too much time to drop the ph and that means I will have a high consumption of CO2, like maybe twice what I really need !!! 
I don't really know what would be a wise move ? Maybe I can increase the injection rate and reducing injection timing ?! what would be the advice for you guys ??
My sister have give me her Canon 5D so I will finally take pic tonight and post it tomorrow.

thanks members


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (8 Oct 2013)

Good evening all,
yesterday I took some pictures of the tank. I am still learning how to take picture with a sophisticated camera lol. I am not very satisfied with the result but the learning curve is very long  .
also working with a software on picture was a first for me, last time my sister workout the pictures for me. This time I tried to do it my self and I mess up with the full tank shot and the side view. I didn't had much time so I will rework the pictures tomorrow, but here are some shot like that you can have an idea of the tank. 

Angle view




rocks details





I Have decided to change the timing of lighting and CO2, because the CO2 was turning on when I was at work and same for the lights. In this configuration it was impossible to have a good management of CO2 timing and injection.

Since today the CO2 turns on at 06:00 PM and lights at 07:30 PM and injection rate have been increased.
Today I came back home at 6:30 so 30 min after CO2 on so don't have the data for that.

temp: 27C°

06:30 pm --> Ph 6,00
07:30 pm --> Ph 5,31
07:45 pm --> Ph 5,19
09:00 pm --> Ph 5,03
10:00 pm --> Ph 4,84

The tank is growing very slowly, but only 25 days after planting so I can not turn on all the 4 bulbs now still have to wait.
I am a bit sad that only few HC have settled and the rest have died. what would you advice me ? We still have a lot of HC in our pond, should I go and pick some more and give a second shot ? 


cheers


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## Edvet (9 Oct 2013)

Will you stock it with some tetra's from Congo (maybe even selfcaught). I think it could look realy great especially with those stones.?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (9 Oct 2013)

Edvet said:


> Will you stock it with some tetra's from Congo (maybe even selfcaught). I think it could look realy great especially with those stones.?


Hi Edvet,
Yes I will stock some yellow tetra from Congo river. I think I will wait until January for that. I don't think I will catch it my self, I will ask best fisherman to catch them for me. I know some fisherman who catch ornamental fish for export so I will ask them. 

Best regards


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## Edvet (9 Oct 2013)

Sweet! 
Now that is what  i call a an ecotope (fish and hardware from the actual environment).


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## BigTom (9 Oct 2013)

That's looking really nice. Good to see some different rock being used, and I like the arrangement.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (9 Oct 2013)

BigTom said:


> That's looking really nice. Good to see some different rock being used, and I like the arrangement.


 
Thanks Tom,
I really like the rocks too, and I am happy that I have nice feed back on these rocks ! 
I can't wait the plants to grow in and feel all the spaces between the stones. But my main regards is about the HC  that I have never had success with it !

best regards


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## Aquamaniac Fishtanks (9 Oct 2013)

This tank looks really cool.
Hardscape is flawless. And I tought my hardscape was looking good. Yours is incredible and unique. 
Hope you sort the plant problems.
Funny I am portuguese and never heard of NA portugal.
Living the UK for so long leads to this.

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## zanguli-ya-zamba (9 Oct 2013)

Aquamaniac Fishtanks said:


> This tank looks really cool.
> Hardscape is flawless. And I tought my hardscape was looking good. Yours is incredible and unique.
> Hope you sort the plant problems.
> Funny I am portuguese and never heard of NA portugal.
> ...



Hi 
Thanks for your nice word mate. 
Yes Natural Aquario is a Portuguese company. 

Cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (9 Oct 2013)

So here is the FTS. for the Side view I need to take an other shot because the picture I have is not good.



Hope you will like it ! Sorry for the difference in the substrate on the right, but I touch the outflow power of the filter and mess up a bit. I was afraid that if I touch it I will mess up the water and other. so I decided to shoot like this. Sorry for that I know that we like clean pictures.

best regards members


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## Aquamaniac Fishtanks (9 Oct 2013)

It looks quite good in my opinion. I love those rocks.

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## zanguli-ya-zamba (9 Oct 2013)

I still have to add a stem plant on the top left to add some height ! I have to go to the pond today so I will pick one. But which one I don't know ??? 
What would you advice me to put there guys. Please give me some idea. 

Cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (10 Oct 2013)

Hi guys,
yesterday I went to the pond, and my friend gives me 10 cryptocoryne balansae that was already in his tank so it will be on top left of the hill.
I have taken also some pogostermon stelata that was in the pond and will be on the top right of the hill.
he gave me also some crypts that was dying in his tank. He have too much work so he doesn't care any more about his tank (sad).
It is incredible how plant can survive, he didn't turn n the lights since a month only ambient light and a lot of plant have survive and even grow very well haha.
he told me that he will put down the tank so I will buy him some plants, like anubia nana petite and some big crypt, I will add the plants today and take a pic.
I am quite happy about the crypt balansae, I think it will add a nice effect when the plant will crawl on the water surface.

cheers


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## Vito (10 Oct 2013)

Hi Zanguli, Welcome to the NA clan, I love the scape, cant wait for the growth


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## TOO (10 Oct 2013)

Looks promising and different. I would prefer to keep the hardscape area rather low in planting, i.e. not adding anything that will reach the surface. But then again it might look nice in a tall tank like this. Excited to see how this develops.

Thomas


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## Stormy (11 Oct 2013)

Hi Zanguli....you have some very special rocks in there!
the rock and wood arrangement is also very commendable, depicts a nature scene very well.

IMHO, this layout will look nicer if your tank is 15-20cm shorter, as i feel the air space on top is a little too much.
when you are taking photo of this tank next time, try to reduce the water level and see if it is nicer.


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## Nice (11 Oct 2013)

Would you be able to show us the entire system? would be nice if you could take some photos.

are you supplying CO2?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (11 Oct 2013)

Vito said:


> Hi Zanguli, Welcome to the NA clan, I love the scape, cant wait for the growth


 
Hi Vito,
thank you for you comment !!  Me neither can't wait for it to grow, hope every things will go well.
Happy to be part of the _NA _Clan. When George Farmer started talking about the TMC Clan I was like "huuummm would be good to be in a clan" hahaha.



TOO said:


> Looks promising and different. I would prefer to keep the hardscape area rather low in planting, i.e. not adding anything that will reach the surface. But then again it might look nice in a tall tank like this. Excited to see how this develops.
> 
> Thomas


 
Hi Thomas,
I was Thinking the same as you at the beginning (low planting nothing tall), but after putting together the hardscape and decided to raise again and again the height of the hill. But still having a huge space on top. so to fill it i decided to put tall plants. If it's will not give a nice effect than I will remove it. 
Stormy is right if the tank was 15 cm less tall than it would be planted like this.
The plants are growing very very slowly, too slowly maybe. really want to turn on all the bulbs, but ........




Stormy said:


> Hi Zanguli....you have some very special rocks in there!
> the rock and wood arrangement is also very commendable, depicts a nature scene very well.
> 
> IMHO, this layout will look nicer if your tank is 15-20cm shorter, as i feel the air space on top is a little too much.
> when you are taking photo of this tank next time, try to reduce the water level and see if it is nicer.


 
Hi Stormy, thanks for your nice comment on the hard scape. unfortunately I can't try to take a picture with water level that low because yesterday I planted somme Crypt Balansae and Pogostermon stelata. 
cheers mate.



Nice said:


> Would you be able to show us the entire system? would be nice if you could take some photos.
> 
> are you supplying CO2?


 
Hello Nice,

Yes I supply the tank with CO2 through Up atomizer 16/22 mm on the outlet. No problem I will take a pic of the entire system. LIke that members can see how I have done the reduction from 25 mm of FX5 filter hose to 22 mm  up aqua atomizer and than to 16 mm steel hose of NA ( maybe that reduction is giving me too much pressure in flow).

Thank you guys for your encouragement !!! 


Best Regards 
Zanguli


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## aqua!nano&more (13 Oct 2013)

Hi Zanguli
Nice to see your progress! Still love the rocks and also the Congo riversand! Looks like the Colorado sand from ADA!!!!
Which fertilzers will you use? With that lot light and Co2 too ,you must choose your ferts carefully? Do you use the NA ferts?
Roland


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (14 Oct 2013)

aqua!nano&more said:


> Hi Zanguli
> Nice to see your progress! Still love the rocks and also the Congo riversand! Looks like the Colorado sand from ADA!!!!
> Which fertilzers will you use? With that lot light and Co2 too ,you must choose your ferts carefully? Do you use the NA ferts?
> Roland


 
Hi Roland,
I use Dry fertilizer, dosing EI, so unlimited nutrient there. When I will increase lighting I will look after any sign of algae related to a shortage in fert, such as BGA or GSA, and adjust dosing. If there is no sign of algae I will slowly reduce the dosing until I reach the breaking point of algae.
My light for now is very low, plant are growing very slowly.
Hope you are fine Roland

cheers


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (14 Oct 2013)

The camera I use to take picture have a small problem in the electronic focus system. So we send it in Holland for repairing, I don't know when it will comeback. So I will not post pictures until it comes back. Or I can put Phone pictures.

Guys I wanted your advices, when do you think that I can start increase light. Because it is quite low. New leaves that are sprouting on HC are very very tiny !!! I have never seen Tiny leaves like that on HC. It is at least 5 time smaller than normal size !!!

Should I start with 3 bulbs on and three weeks after turn on the 4th one ? Or I can Go a head and put on the 4 bulbs ? 
I know that most of you will tell me 3 but maybe one of the expert will tell me "turn on the 4 and increase CO2".
CO2 Is very high now.

cheers


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## Nice (14 Oct 2013)

I believe you have only 1 option to go for the 4. 

You wont have any algae, all you need is frequent water changes. 

Guess what men, algae are simple organisms, they can grow under low light and high light. If you want to avoid algae, you have to promote the health grow of plants, and the best thing to do that is to give light co2 and frequent water changes to reduce the organic mater.

Have you been looking to the ADA gallery? As far as i can see, they use 150W HQI lamps right from the beginning! Search for the evidences, and not from the people advice  Me included 

chears


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (14 Oct 2013)

Nice said:


> I believe you have only 1 option to go for the 4.
> 
> You wont have any algae, all you need is frequent water changes.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Nice,

My concern is not about algae for now. I have been battling with different algae and always won the battle (for now hahaha). I know what are the moves to avoid algae.
Just want to be sure that plant will not suffer from doubling the light in one shot !!! that's the main problem. Will the plant accept that huge change in a small time !! How the plant will react in the production of Rubisco Enzyme that transport carbon molecules, will the plant react faster to avoid death and melt. But I don't think that only 4X36 W will be overkilling.

Well about ADA I think it's hard to compare, because, there is a crew of people that clean deeply the tank every day, and that makes a lot of difference. I do change my water 2x a week with 60% WC. but not cleaning like ADA crew lol. 
I have read in many thread and different forum, from reliable people that ADA's tank don't really have a high PAR value, and you can see that they hang theire HQI light quite high so the intensity os less than what we think. 

thanks mate for your help


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## Aquamaniac Fishtanks (14 Oct 2013)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Hi Nice,
> 
> My concern is not about algae for now. I have been battling with different algae and always won the battle (for now hahaha). I know what are the moves to avoid algae.
> Just want to be sure that plant will not suffer from doubling the light in one shot !!! that's the main problem. Will the plant accept that huge change in a small time !! How the plant will react in the production of Rubisco Enzyme that transport carbon molecules, will the plant react faster to avoid death and melt. But I don't think that only 4X36 W will be overkilling.
> ...



I am starting a new tank at the moment. And I am using my light for only 6 hours and only 2x54w instead of 4x54w.
For me it's working. I have good growth and no algae. I am also doing 2x 50% water changes weekly.
Thing is I am using eliocharis parvula which is not  very demanding in terms of light.
HC on the other hand is. So what's happening to you is really not enough light for the HC to grow.
Controlling algae is not a problem but you need to make sure you still promote plant growth.
Nothing keeps algae at bay better than  plant growth.
With it plants eventually beat algae for nutrients and the tank will be balanced.



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## Alastair (14 Oct 2013)

Very nice hardscape layout zanguli. Id quite  happily have stocked it and not planted it it looks great


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## ceg4048 (14 Oct 2013)

Aquamaniac Fishtanks said:


> With it plants eventually beat algae for nutrients and the tank will be balanced


This is a fantasy that can never happen.

Cheers,


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (14 Oct 2013)

Nice said:


> Would you be able to show us the entire system? would be nice if you could take some photos.
> 
> are you supplying CO2?


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## Trevor Pleco (14 Oct 2013)

Great start ! Your HC needs something in the substrate to get it going firing than just column ferts, how about some gelatin DIY tabs ?

I presume that's self collected Congo sand not ADA Congo ?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (14 Oct 2013)

Trevor Pleco said:


> Great start ! Your HC needs something in the substrate to get it going firing than just column ferts, how about some gelatin DIY tabs ?
> 
> I presume that's self collected Congo sand not ADA Congo ?



Hi  Trevor ,
Thanks mate !
If you dose at EI level, no need to dose substrate. As Nutrient will go trough the substrate and leaves up take is easier for plants. So it will do the job mate. 

Yes it is self collected sand. I have first pass it to a fine mosquito net, to separate the very fine sand that is almost like powder that I have not use. After that I have pass it through a bigger mosquito net to separate bigger grain from the medium grain. I have use the medium grain. 

I don't know if I made my self clear lol 

Cheers


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## Trevor Pleco (15 Oct 2013)

I understood from your post that you wanted advice with your HC carpet, hence I gave it.. I've grown HC carpets over many years and never only relied on just column ferts for a rich compact carpet, if that's what you are after..


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (15 Oct 2013)

Yes Trevor that's what I am looking mate. I tried this plant 4 time and it has always died after 3 weeks.

cheers


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## Aquamaniac Fishtanks (15 Oct 2013)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Yes Trevor that's what I am looking mate. I tried this plant 4 time and it has always died after 3 weeks.
> 
> cheers



Ei dosing works. But I like to play safe. I always use a nutrient rich substrate. Why rely only on EI dosing when you can use both to achieve your results.
I think of it as my backup plan if I mess up my dosing.
Specially for carpets.


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## Trevor Pleco (15 Oct 2013)

zanguli-ya-zamba said:


> Yes Trevor that's what I am looking mate. I tried this plant 4 time and it has always died after 3 weeks.
> 
> cheers


 


Then try other options, after all you are currently planting them in just river sand in a new tank so you need to speed the enriching process up. Perhaps do a test, use some DIY tabs with say earthworm castings and osmocote under one portion of the HC and see how this goes compared to the non tab section, its's worth trying surely..


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## Aquamaniac Fishtanks (15 Oct 2013)

Trevor Pleco said:


> Then try other options, after all you are currently planting them in just river sand. Perhaps do a test, use some DIY tabs with say earthworm castings and osmocote under one portion of the HC and see how this goes compared to the non tab section, its's worth trying surely..



Earthworm castings works. It's cheap and it's the most nutrient rich stuff I ever used.
And I agree with trevor. If what you are trying does not work it means you need to try something else.


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## viktorlantos (15 Oct 2013)

> If you dose at EI level, no need to dose substrate.


 
It's a myth. It is working well, but if you go with nutrient rich substrate and also refill the substrate with fertilizers you will see a very different growth than you would see only with water column fertilization.
There are small steps which gives you better result so why we say they are useless?

I never agree with people who go with half light at the beginning and turning the rest on in the next 2-4 weeks. Why? It's good for some algae protection, but very bad for the demanding plants. Then these plants starts to melt and stress and you will have algae anyway, but you will also loose your plants. Wrong strategy.

Just came back from ADA a week ago. We usually light for 7 hours per day on our high energy setup. They do 9 hours!!! And most of the lights were lowered not like yours up in the sky 
More light speed up the growth. If you're dosing well the CO2 and the ferts then your plants will grow faster than algae. Yes you need a lot of plants to begin with and also the algae crew, but these speedie tanks usually have more success then just stressing the plants with low light etc.

Check this shot. It's me, but not the one who need to look at 


Japan Tour 2013 by viktorlantos, on Flickr

Lighting is lowered. Many have grand solars on top which is not just HQI. And as i said 9 hours per day it's a lot of power no matter how weak is the ballast of the HQI.


Then there is the temperature. 27 celsius is not a friend of HC. Above 25 this tiny plant start to melt. The roots get rotted and fly out from the soil shortly.
You need to keep down the temp at max 25 celsius. Better to be lower.

So you need:

1. More light. 
Lower your unit, and switch on the afterburners. You have 50cm deep tank you need very good lights and reflectors to make a nice carpet. Some cheap chinese 4 tubes unit (Odyssey for example) has HALF the light! then a good ATI one on similar power. Hard to tell how your unit fits in as i am not familiar with it. But if this is weeker you need to use it longer.

2. Colder water

3. Nutrient Rich Substrate

Your DC already yellow, but have you seen any of the HC plantlet pearling on the bottom? If not then something is wrong. Maybe your CO2 also and the carpet not get enough CO2.

HC is a bit*h 
funny in some tank this looks very easy. Like in a nano tank where you have usually more light and CO2 than in a larger one. Like this:
Green Aqua Showroom | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
And some larger tanks temps usually higher because of the more heating, CO2 distribution to the carpet is harder, you need much more light on the carpet level etc.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (16 Oct 2013)

viktorlantos said:


> So you need:
> 
> 1. More light.
> Lower your unit, and switch on the afterburners. You have 50cm deep tank you need very good lights and reflectors to make a nice carpet. Some cheap chinese 4 tubes unit (Odyssey for example) has HALF the light! then a good ATI one on similar power. Hard to tell how your unit fits in as i am not familiar with it. But if this is weeker you need to use it longer.
> ...


 
Hi Viktor,

Thank you very much for your input mate . This is very kind from you to take time to share this.

1) I have turn on the 4 bulbs now, I will monitor the tank well (hope so) if I see CO2 problems I will up the CO2. 

2) As I live in tropical environment, it is quite hard to keep the temps that low. Even during the dry season, when we have outside 22 to 26 C° the tank is never going below 26C°.
	 So temperature will be an issue for me !! S***t lol
3) I can add some JBL balls that I had received with my two CO2 set up. When I was in Thailand last year, I have buy some PENAC P, and during set up I putted a good mayer under the sand. Do you think this could help ? 

4) HC is a B***h --> I totaly agree with that hahaha. And we can add to that bi**hs corner CO2 lol

Does Glosso have same temperature problem like HC ? maybe I can switch to Glosso if it doesn't work.

Cheers my friend and thanks 

Zanguli


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## viktorlantos (16 Oct 2013)

Glosso is much easier just need light. Or parvula. Marsilea easier and goes well in warmer temp too just slow.


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## ceg4048 (16 Oct 2013)

I seldom pay attention to substrate and I don't have any problems growing HC and other carpet plants.
Here is HC becoming an invasive nuisance in ordinary LFS gravel, but with high water column dosing.






If the tank suffers poor distribution combined with excessive light then there will be an issue with foliar nutrient uptake.
A nutritious substrate mitigates this issue, especially if it is hypereutrophic like Amazonia.
If the plant suffers a nutrient failure then it would be obvious, because the syndrome of nutrient deficiency would be clearly expressed as discoloration or as nutrient-deficiency related algae.

So it's always better to have both a nutritious substrate combined with water column nutrition, but it is not imperative.
Here are some TGM images of a novel use of HC mounted on wood and never seeing substrate:















James had no trouble growing HC without a sediment. You can see the tufts of HC on the peaks of the wood. Check the TheGreenMachine website for the video on this layout called Nature's Chaos.

Therefore it cannot be that sediment is all important for this plant. People draw conclusions without understanding the underlying principles and without taking into account the other variables.


You will find more failed attempts at growing carpet plants when emphasis is placed on "demanding light" instead of on good flow, CO2 and distribution. Carpet plants do not demand that much more light than any other plant. They demand more CO2. They are simply a slow growing species which accelerate their growth rates under high light.

If, under high light conditions, CO2 demand is also satisfied, then the plant will fill in faster and will be healthy.

Viktor, algae protection is a more important imperative than fast growth. More tanks get destroyed by algae, and by an overwhelming margin, than they do by slow growth due to low light. That goes not only for the carpet plants, but for the tank as a whole. This particular tank is also at high ambient temperatures, which significantly reduce the CO2 solubility and availability.

It is therefore the combination of environmental stresses that are faced by the plant that determines whether it succeeds. In your ADA system, it is entirely possible that the nutrients leached from the sediment into the water column feeds the plants more directly than that of the sediment root hair interface, especially when the plant is first inserted into the sediment and has NOT developed the root hairs. Huge N-NH4 levels leeched by  Amazonia can easily feed the plants at the foliar level.

Barr has already demonstrated that HC can be grown in low light CO2 enriched tank. So there are no myths associated with these principles.
Barr has also demonstrated that the ADA HQI ballasts produce less output than mainstream ballasts, which reduces the PAR vales substantially. These measurements were taken at the ADA galley itself. In fact, this was one of his pet peeves, that ADA overemphasize the use of high PAR when in fact their ballasts produce low PAR.

So one has to account for all variables in the growth/health equations. Suggesting that one component or parameter has more importance than another can be out of context, and can cause problems. If light intensity is so much more important than CO2, then try growing HC without any form of CO2 enrichment and see how far it can be taken.

Cheers,


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## Trevor Pleco (16 Oct 2013)

For a newbie why struggle, enrich the substrate unless you deliberately want the challenge or have a point to prove. If I plant my grass lawn in river sand only and then water or perhaps add some liquid ferts with it, yes it's going to grow.. but not as nicely and as compact than if I had added compost in the sand.

Sure I got HC popping up and growing all over the place without substrate, but if I was starting off and having problems with it and I wanted things to improve I'd enrich the new sand substrate, it's no brainer imo.


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## ceg4048 (16 Oct 2013)

Well, the thing is that using an enriched substrate is no guarantee of success either. There are just as many people suffering problems with carpet plants when using enriched substrates as those who are not using enriched substrate.

Suppose the problem is CO2 related? Adding enriched substrate in that case will not make a difference. The fact that you have HC popping up in areas where there is no substrate means that substrate doesn't matter. The OP's tank is being dosed with EI levels of nutrients. That means sediment enhancement will not matter. The plants are not suffering a nutrient deficiency. That's the point. If more nutrients were needed then it is a simple matter to add more to the water column.

You can do a lot of things that won't make any difference. Why is that a no brainer? I've never needed to spend money on sediment enrichment. Increased water column concentration levels does exactly the same job, for cheaper....way cheaper. That's the other point.

Cheers,


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## pepedopolous (16 Oct 2013)

Beautiful scape and I'm also really enjoying the debate going on here (sorry to hijack this thread!)

The thing is, even if you succeed in growing healthy plants with Victor's 'ADA' strategy of very intense light and a longer photoperiod, surely you will have lots more algae on the hardscape and glass? 

In the ADA gallery or an aquascaping shop there is the opportunity to clean the glass and hardscape more regularly, even every day. However, for the average hobbyist, they only have time to do this once a week with the water change.

P


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## foxfish (16 Oct 2013)

I am also led to believe (Barr) that the ADA display tanks have low flow, sealed canister filters & a low fish count, did you notice this Viktor?


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (16 Oct 2013)

debate, that's what makes this forum so great.....
There is so much members that have a lot of knowledge here that you will alway have good debate and sharing knowledge here!!!
great to see that.
I think that Clive you have pointed the good things !!
But I don't know if I will or not continue with the 4x36w or the 2x36 w now. lets continue the debate to see what is said here.

guys thanks for this in my journal  hahahaha 
Hope others will add their stone in this. 

cheers


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## viktorlantos (16 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> I am also led to believe (Barr) that the ADA display tanks have low flow, sealed canister filters & a low fish count, did you notice this Viktor?



Low flow not true
You see the plants moving even on the carpet level in the largest tanks.


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## viktorlantos (16 Oct 2013)

Light and CO2 is more important, thats why floating HC can grow quickly. So Clive is right on that.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (16 Oct 2013)

pepedopolous said:


> Beautiful scape


 
Thank you very much Pepe !!

No problem this is not a hijack for me ! you are just entering in the debate mate.


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## viktorlantos (16 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Here is HC becoming an invasive nuisance in ordinary LFS gravel, but with high water column dosing.


 
Is this really HC? Looks like HM to me.



ceg4048 said:


> James had no trouble growing HC without a sediment. You can see the tufts of HC on the peaks of the wood. Check the TheGreenMachine website for the video on this layout called Nature's Chaos.


 
On this tank. I see the success of the HC growing based on my points.
Very high light 4x150W halide HC planted on the rocks are even closer to the lights.
CO2 is on top with the external reactor.
Probably the shop has cooler temp, but i did not found any info on this. I guess the water temp is below 25.

So in this condition HC will show it's best form for sure no matter if this is planted in the substrate or on the rocks.
In substrate this would be quicker on growth.



ceg4048 said:


> Barr has already demonstrated that HC can be grown in low light CO2 enriched tank. So there are no myths associated with these principles.


 
Well i think we're talking about different thing here. Can be grown and grown quickly in its best form is not the same thing. A leggy HC is not the same like a low super dense carpet.
So the question is how quickly we need the carpet and in which form then. If this is does not matter, then sure many rules will be lighter. But if you go with speed and quality then better to stick with the optimal conditions.



ceg4048 said:


> Barr has also demonstrated that the ADA HQI ballasts produce less output than mainstream ballasts, which reduces the PAR vales substantially. These measurements were taken at the ADA galley itself. In fact, this was one of his pet peeves, that ADA overemphasize the use of high PAR when in fact their ballasts produce low PAR.


 
Yes HQI of the Solar's ballast may be not so high like the best performers. But that does not mean it is a low light. It is a high light but not powerful. Even 80% of the best performers 150W ballast is strong enough.
However once you go with the Grand Solar where you have 2 additional PLs next to the HQI then the story is very different.

Based on the visit last week all i can say ADA is pushing the light limits very high. I am a high light guy, but i was surprised how hard they are pusing.
They put everything into one card which is a speed growth. They can't wait 4 months to have some nice tanks when the visitors coming frequently.
So once we see their progress with their philosophy and system we need to understand they are high light / power users mainly. Light in 9 hours with extremely lot of light. No purigen and no 300% water changes to keep the form, just regular algae cleaners, UV and NA Carbons with weekly 30% water changes and avg water temp is around 24-25 celsius.
CO2 was very high in every tank to balance the light.


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## foxfish (16 Oct 2013)

When you say C02 was very high... it is just coming from a basic in tank diffuser?


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## viktorlantos (16 Oct 2013)

foxfish said:


> When you say C02 was very high... it is just coming from a basic in tank diffuser?


 
Yeah we can call it basic 
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
But high qual diffusers are equal to a CO2 reactor,  or inline diffusers in efficiency just need frequent cleaning.
So ADA diffusers on standard size tanks in different sizes.

The giant 180*120*60 tanks the CO2 injected into the sump.

Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I know approx how much CO2 needed to the standard sized tanks as we run them a while ago. But their bubble counters and injection was much higher than we would use. Same soft water everywhere. Not too much surface agitation.

The CO2 diffusers was on half height so not on the bottom of the tank. This could be also a reason to inject a little more, but these diffusers inject very fine bubbles so the CO2 is not leaving the water that quickly.
Probably for this reason it does not matter where you're using the diffuser in height.

180*60*60 with a 5cm ceramic diffuser

Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
another 180*60*60
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
half height again
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

There were many new tanks what they did in summer, but i could not share them until they will be public later on. Many minimal tanks with amazing carpets including Micranthemum sp Monte Carlo, UG etc.


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## Ian Holdich (16 Oct 2013)

Without highjacking Zinguli's thread even further, we do know that the higher the light, the more chance of getting an algae is higher. We know that amano himself also get algae in his tank. This is clear on vids, we also see his moss's not doing well etc etc. we need to be a little careful when explaining things that high light is not always the best way to start if you are not experienced in aquascaping/planted tank keeping.


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## viktorlantos (16 Oct 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> we also see his moss's not doing well


 
You you're right on the moss. This is probably because the water temp is slightly higher than 25 celsius in some tanks and mosses not perform well in tanks where the decoration raise the hardness level and you change with soft water (fluctuations in water hardness). I've seen evidence of this many times in our gallery too.

I better to stay off  Sorry guys that i spammed the journals. So many topics to talk about


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## Trevor Pleco (16 Oct 2013)

Yeah good lively debate !

Come on Zanguli... I request you now put in a few tabs as suggested under one portion of the HC... and let mother nature decide what she wants


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (17 Oct 2013)

I guys,
thanks for sharing all these infos !! reading all this is food for brain lol.
Viktor I had mosses in my previous scape and temperature was above 25 C° and never had problems to grow. Even when the tank was at 29C°. 
Mate don't be sorry for that ! this have add great infos and value to this journal. 

Trevor no problem, I will go to the pond and take to portions of HC and plant it, one will have a tab under it another nothing. and we will see hahaha.

just to let you know I have turned on 4 bulbs since 48 hours. Even Staurogyne was sprouting very small leaves !! When they were in my 20 G light was low but stauro was sprouting way bigger leaves, same for crypt. 

thanks for the debate guys !!!


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (1 Nov 2013)

I members,

just a small update. 

The tank is not doing very well !!! I have some CO2 issue (Clive please don't beat me up ). After two week of 4 bulbs on and CO2 increased, I can see that I have some melting and poor health of certain plants.
Ph reading before lights on is good (CO2 timing), 1 point of ph drop in a hour and when lights turn on, drop is 1,4 point so this seems to be ok. 
The only plants that are doing well are the one that are at the top of the hill, and the staurogyne that is near the top of the hill is growing slowly but with almost good size leaves and healthy. So all the plants that are closer to the lights are doing ok. They are also the only plants that are pearling.

I have change a bit the scape also, the top center rock have been took out because it was restricting too much flow at the back. I have added a vertical wood where I have place a big Microsorum narrow leaves, this plants is almost at the surface of the water, and it is pearling like mad (I know that pearling is not a ref, because it can occur in different condition, and even on plants that are not in good health). 

I have added also some Rotala Rotundifolia, this plant is doing well in lowtech but in my high tech tank, the Rotala have melted after 5 days. The Rotala I have take was in submerge form. Do this informs us that there is a problem in the tank ?? But Hemiantus M that is more CO2 demanding than Rotala is doing fine !!! it is in the same line of flow but in a higher position (more near to the lights). How come a plante that is more demanding in CO2, is not have CO2 related issue and a plant that is less demanding is having CO2 issues. I am lost !!! Or maybe there is some thing eles ( I don't think so ) C02 C02 C02 C02 .............

By seeing the overall health of the thank I can tell that there is a CO2 related issue. But I don't want to reduce light this time (bim Clive slap me hahaha  ).

I really don't know what to do guys  !!!


Flow is good, all the plants are moving in the tank even the ones where flow is the weaker. CO2 bubbles are push allover the tank. I can't see one part of the tank where plant have not access to CO2 mist. 

There is no update pic because the camera I was using had a problem to the Focus captor so we send it back to the factory they told us that it will take more than 4 weeks to repair it !!! At least the camera was under warranty so it will cost only 30 euros.

Guys I am a bit disappointed    , but will never loose patience and will continue to battle.
Help and encouragement are welcome lol	

Cheers


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## Iain Sutherland (1 Nov 2013)

hey zanguli, sorry to hear you are having difficulties, it can be very disheartening.
As you have already identified, co2 and flow are likely your culprits so you know what needs to be done.  Im interested to know why you dont want to reduce the light?  It will save such a headache and then work back up to more light if thats what you want.
Personally i would be tempted to switch the flow around the other way so it is blowing towards the island and increase how long the co2 comes on before the lights.  It might sound mad but i have mine come on 3 1/2 hours before the dim up process of the lights even starts.  Fish are happy and have no co2 related issues worth speaking of.
My steel inlets create a reasonable amount of surface movement even with them as low as possible and tank filled to the brim so as such need a lot of co2 going in, im assuming yours behave in the same way...??

Im sure you will get on top of it and it will be back on track soon (sooner if you would reduce the light ) 
all the best fella


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (1 Nov 2013)

Iain Sutherland said:


> hey zanguli, sorry to hear you are having difficulties, it can be very disheartening.
> As you have already identified, co2 and flow are likely your culprits so you know what needs to be done. Im interested to know why you dont want to reduce the light? It will save such a headache and then work back up to more light if thats what you want.
> Personally i would be tempted to switch the flow around the other way so it is blowing towards the island and increase how long the co2 comes on before the lights. It might sound mad but i have mine come on 3 1/2 hours before the dim up process of the lights even starts. Fish are happy and have no co2 related issues worth speaking of.
> My steel inlets create a reasonable amount of surface movement even with them as low as possible and tank filled to the brim so as such need a lot of co2 going in, im assuming yours behave in the same way...??
> ...


 
Hi Iain,

Thanks for you answer and support mate !!!
Why I don't want to reduce light ? This is because since a year I am using low light on my tanks, and really want to have more gardening work, and want to see my plants grows faster. that's why  . I know that reducing my light would help and will give me less headache, but will I still stay in this low light with plant almost not rowing ? I really want to improve my skills and reach an other level of aquascpaing. Maybe I have to pass through all these  headache and poor result, before reaching that level haha ??? 
My steel inlet don't behave like yours mate, I need to raise and point the outlet a bit up to have some surface agitation. I wanted the inlet to be in that position like that it helps flow for the carpeting plant that are in front of the hill, but they are not taking off 

So maybe I will turn on the pre light CO2 injection timing to two hours, I really wanted to reduce my CO2 consumption because I need to save a bit $$$ lol. But for good halth of my tank I will increase it.
I will raise a bit CO2 injection rate also, because since a week we have very hot weather here. Tank is at 29C°, so CO2 is less soluble at these temp (maybe it's a part of my issue).
Maybe I can try also to raise a bit the flow power of he FX5, but I am afraid that if I do that, the plants will start rocking like a flag in a tropical storm, and too much pressure in flow is not good also. 
Iain how can we explaine that only the plants that are near the light are doing well, and the other don't ? How come a plant that support lowtech life is not surviving in a hightech, compare to a Hightech plant like HM that is doing fine ?? 

So without changing lights guys what should you suggest ? 

Mate thanks for supporting me, I will not quit that battle !!  

Best regards


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (5 Nov 2013)

Hi all,
So after my post I went back home and decided to take back everything on a good road. 
I have done a major cleaning. 
For a better distribution and flow I have done some changes to help it. So power of FX5 have been up a bit, I have up a bit the position for better surface movement (better degassing when CO2 off), I had noticed that when I have flooded the tank all the sand that was between the rocks and the woods went down due to water, and so have kill flow in these area (a big part of the tank). So I have added a lot of sand to up the level of these area, and it have enhance a lot flow in these parts of the tank. 
I have crank up the CO2 also. 

Hope these changes will be efficient? We will se in two or three weeks. But I can tell that there is big improvement in distribution. 

Cheers


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## James D (5 Nov 2013)

Time will tell mate, best of luck with it!


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## Trevor Pleco (5 Nov 2013)

Holding thumbs !
Did not realize you were using an FX5 in just 100L odd, that sounds crazy big...


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (5 Nov 2013)

Thanks guys for your support ! 
It seams to be a big filter for that tank but ...
Tank is 200 L, FX5 rate on the paper is 3400 L/H, but in reality the rate with media inside and position under the tank is around 2400 L. This is just a bit more than 10 time volume of the tank. 
But I am not using full power of it. Maybe with a larger hose diameter, than the one I am using could work, because of less velocity in flow. 


Let's time do his part of the work and see. 

Cheers guys


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## Trevor Pleco (6 Nov 2013)

Ok, I see then it's bigger than I thought, when I saw the 90mm length I was thinking back to my own standard commercial size 900m tank which is just over 90L. Just reading over your thread again and wondering why some of your plants are not doing well. Difficult to be believe there is a CO2/flow issue given the general volume of circulation in the tank. The rocks are really great looking, out of interest did you first do the vinegar test on them to check they are not perhaps doing something to the water ?


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## Edvet (6 Nov 2013)

Just a thought. Could it be there is something wrong with the quality of your CO2?
And 29 degrees might be tough on plants, that's Discus temperatures and that limits plant species usualy.


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## zanguli-ya-zamba (6 Nov 2013)

Trevor Pleco said:


> Ok, I see then it's bigger than I thought, when I saw the 90mm length I was thinking back to my own standard commercial size 900m tank which is just over 90L. Just reading over your thread again and wondering why some of your plants are not doing well. Difficult to be believe there is a CO2/flow issue given the general volume of circulation in the tank. The rocks are really great looking, out of interest did you first do the vinegar test on them to check they are not perhaps doing something to the water ?


 
Hi Trevor,
the rocks are beautiful, but the substrate is not giving enough contrast to enhance the colors of the rocks  . But I will use it in my next low tech, with Aquasoil amazonia, the black color of AS will enhance a lot the colors of the rocks. I really need to set up that lowtech tank, but I really miss time these days.
For the rock, I have not done the vinegar test, but the scratch test and it was ok. Plus I have created a thread for these rocks, and by the shape and the hardness, plus the location from where the rocks comes, it can not be lime stone. I can add to that, that our master Darrel have gives the explanation and said that it will not alter the water chemistry.
New rocks. What do you think about it ? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers mate



Edvet said:


> Just a thought. Could it be there is something wrong with the quality of your CO2?
> And 29 degrees might be tough on plants, that's Discus temperatures and that limits plant species usualy.


 
 Hi Edvet,
I don't know if it CO2 is a bad quality, but what I can tell is that in every scpae I need to pump a lot of CO2 to have "good" result even with low light. So maybe it could be roght, I will create a thread for that. Thanks for the idea.
I have talk with Tom Barr about temperature issue on these plants, he and other persons told me they never had issue growing these plants from 25 to 30 C°. Of course with such temperature you need to pump more CO2 because, higher temperatures means less dissolution of CO2 in the water, same for O2. 
So I have put a side these theorie. Even if in my journal there is a part of the debate on HC that is pointing temp (the Dr Barr says no.... so) hahaha.

thanks for your help guys cheers


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## foxfish (6 Nov 2013)

I have often had problems with larger tanks of over 200lt!
Some times it can be so frustrating & very difficult to work out why nothing is going right!
I have just set up a 220lt tank for a friend, I convinced him there would be no issues if we just followed a basic formula but...there has been nothing but problems!!
We seem to be pumping in huge amounts of gas especially compared to my own 200l tank, we have a FX5, a full length spray bar & a DIY reactor but the tank just eats up C02.
I have set up dozens of tanks & never had problems like this before.... I am pretty sure it is a flow issue but we have tried several formats now.
 So for the time being the lights have been halved until I can come up with a new spray bar with more smaller holes.


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## Reuben (26 Dec 2013)

How's this one going?


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## flygja (31 Dec 2013)

About temperatures, I live in the tropics too. Afternoon temps regularly go up to 31-34'C every day unless is raining or cloudy. I can attest that HC can grow is about 28'C. This is my tank which I successfully grew a nice thick HC carpet. It was cooled down using fans to around 28'C. Lighting was 12x 3W Cree XR-E LEDs and CO2 was probably 2 bps. Dosed EI with ADA Amazonia soil.






It lifted itself up in the end, not due to melting but short roots. You can see that in the photo below - no melt. 




Lower temps are definitely better for plants though. I find that Java and Spiky moss are less temperature sensitive and can grow in 28'C, but Xmas moss will melt quickly above 27'C.


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