# Tropica specialized on RO water.



## Mike87 (7 Feb 2022)

Hello all. 
I got a question, 
want to start with tropica specialized fertilizer. 
Now im dosing all separately and I am not happy. 
Question is:
If I mineralize RO Water like I always do to 35CA and 9MG, the ratio of K (from tropica) will be much less than it should be to (9MG and 35CA) mineralized RO water. 

Should I add K to proper ratio to achieve CA, MG, K: 35,9,20? Than start fertilizing with Tropica specialized? It is not following the all in one rule when I have to add something separately or if I am wrong correct me..

Im Just tired of EI and constantly testing evrything... I need to know how to start with tropica specialized fertilizer after 50% water change (to remove current ferts) with mineralized RO to for example 35CA and 9MG...


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## hypnogogia (7 Feb 2022)

Mike87 said:


> Im Just tired of EI and constantly testing evrything


Why are you constantly having to test everything, and why would that be different when using tropics specialised?

Whe you say you are not happy dosing separately, why are you not happy?


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## dw1305 (7 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 
Welcome to UKAPS, 


Mike87 said:


> want to start with tropica specialized fertilizer.


That should be fine.  It is <"an expensive option">, but other than that there aren't any issues. 


Mike87 said:


> If I mineralize RO Water like I always do to 35CA and 9MG, the ratio of K (from tropica) will be much less than it should be to (9MG and 35CA) mineralized RO water.
> 
> Should I add K to proper ratio to achieve CA, MG, K: 35,9,20? Than start fertilizing with Tropica specialized? It is not following the all in one rule when I have to add something separately or if I am wrong correct me..


Yes, just ignore the ratio, personally I'm not convinced it has much relevance to plant growth.  Have a look at <"About making liquid gh booster"> and <"Latest insights on.....">

Because you are adding the fertiliser that will act as your remineraliser to some degree. If you want to add some extra dKH and dGH, the details are at <"James' Planted Tank">.


Mike87 said:


> Im Just tired of EI and constantly testing evrything... I need to know how to start with tropica specialized fertilizer after 50% water change (to remove current ferts) with mineralized RO to for example 35CA and 9MG...


I have access to <"lab. analytical kit">, but I don't test the tank water, it is too time consuming to do it properly, and it usually doesn't tell you anything very useful. 

I'd advise just <"watching plant growth">.

cheers Darrel


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## Mike87 (7 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> Why are you constantly having to test everything, and why would that be different when using tropics specialised?
> 
> Whe you say you are not happy dosing separately, why are you not happy?


Because I like to complicate easy things. The answer is due to issues with green dust algae since 2 years no matter how much Po4 I have in water column 0 or 3ppm and no matter the micro Im adding and how much (tried like 5 micro brands ) always got GDA. CO2 is yellow, circulation is Perfect due to power head pushing CO2 anyway always getting GDA after few days and plants are growing (jumpy) like one week they grow as crazy than other week they stop and stay. This is complicated to explain but mostly using EI with modifications so constant testing was neccesery and now I want to try lean/medium method...


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## Mike87 (7 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> Welcome to UKAPS,
> 
> That should be fine.  It is <"an expensive option">, but other than that there aren't any issues.
> ...


Wow, such an accurate answer. Thanks, so now I have to Read all that stuff ^_^ wondering how plants will react to change from EI to tropica. 🤔✌️😆


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## bazz (7 Feb 2022)

Mike87 said:


> wondering how plants will react to change from EI to tropica.


Have you got any Crypts, if so you're likely to get some melt?


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## hypnogogia (7 Feb 2022)

Mike87 said:


> Because I like to complicate easy things. The answer is due to issues with green dust algae since 2 years no matter how much Po4 I have in water column 0 or 3ppm and no matter the micro Im adding and how much (tried like 5 micro brands ) always got GDA. CO2 is yellow, circulation is Perfect due to power head pushing CO2 anyway always getting GDA after few days and plants are growing (jumpy) like one week they grow as crazy than other week they stop and stay. This is complicated to explain but mostly using EI with modifications so constant testing was neccesery and now I want to try lean/medium method...


OK. So what you might want to try us using the excellent fertiliser calculator we have here with you can use to clone the Tropica using the salts you used for EI.  That way you'll know exactly what you've put in and won't have to resort to measuring your water.


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## plantnoobdude (7 Feb 2022)

hypnogogia said:


> OK. So what you might want to try us using the excellent fertiliser calculator we have here with you can use to clone the Tropica using the salts you used for EI.  That way you'll know exactly what you've put in and won't have to resort to measuring your water.


it probably won't work. csm+b kh2po4, and kno3 will not get you the same ppms as tropica and will not give you good growth. as far as I know, tropica uses nh4no3 or/and urea as N source, it won't work well with chemicals such as kno3.


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## Happi (7 Feb 2022)

if you are constantly testing then you are not dosing EI, you defeat the purpose of EI dosing. there is no problem using Tropica over EI, in fact I highly recommend it. far as the GH goes, it should work fine under those scenario as well even if you don't add K as part of your GH. booster.


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## Mike87 (7 Feb 2022)

bazz said:


> Have you got any Crypts, if so you're likely to get some melt?


Nope, no crypts luckly


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## Mike87 (7 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> if you are constantly testing then you are not dosing EI, you defeat the purpose of EI dosing. there is no problem using Tropica over EI, in fact I highly recommend it. far as the GH goes, it should work fine under those scenario as well even if you don't add K as part of your GH. booster.


Ye, I was curious due to my Mineralizer don't have K.


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## ceg4048 (14 Feb 2022)

Mike87 said:


> Hello all.
> I got a question,
> want to start with tropica specialized fertilizer.
> Now im dosing all separately and I am not happy.
> ...


As mentioned by Happi, dosing EI inherently means that there is no need for testing.
Additionally, trying to micromanage ratios of nutrients is probably the cause of unhappiness.
You should simply dose the suggested amounts and forget about ratios. Ratios really does not help to grow better plants.

Cheers,


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## Ghettofarmulous (14 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> if you are constantly testing then you are not dosing EI, you defeat the purpose of EI dosing. there is no problem using Tropica over EI, in fact I highly recommend it. far as the GH goes, it should work fine under those scenario as well even if you don't add K as part of your GH. booster.


Just wondering why you recommend tropica over EI? I am considering moving to EI as I have just purchased a 100 litre tank and I want to bring cost down


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> it probably won't work. csm+b kh2po4, and kno3 will not get you the same ppms as tropica and will not give you good growth. as far as I know, tropica uses nh4no3 or/and urea as N source, it won't work well with chemicals such as kno3.


You can replicate the Tropica macro ppms. You cannot replicate the trace elements because they are not fully detailed. 

Several liquid fertilisers use a mix of Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium  Sulfate, and Urea, together with other NO3 sources. On the other hand, not many people using dry salts are using Ammonium or Urea in their salt mix, regardless of whether they are using EI or cloning some other fertiliser. Are you saying that using KNO3 as a nitrate source will not give good growth? If that were the case, then fertilising with dry salts would not work for an overwhelming majority, which is not the case.


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## Happi (14 Feb 2022)

Ghettofarmulous said:


> Just wondering why you recommend tropica over EI? I am considering moving to EI as I have just purchased a 100 litre tank and I want to bring cost down


I can only speak based on my personal experience and those who use both systems and it seems that they rather prefer Tropica  when it comes to plant growth. for lower cost you can choose to go with dry salts. you can literally clone the tropica and any name brand if you are willing to put some effort into it, the cost to clone them with dry chemicals are 100+ times lower.


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

Ghettofarmulous said:


> Just wondering why you recommend tropica over EI? I am considering moving to EI as I have just purchased a 100 litre tank and I want to bring cost down


Tropica water column fertilisers are lean and need to be complemented with a rich substrate and root tabs, according to Tropica's very own guidelines. 

EI is on the opposite end of the fertilisation spectrum, where the water column is dosed with excess nutrients. So, it is the opposite of Tropica's.

Comparing these two models is comparing apples and oranges. First, you need to decide which type of fertilisation regime you actually want. After that, you do the maths and calculate the cost of using liquid fertilisers or replacing them with dry salts. You do not need dry salts to have EI, and you can use dry salts without EI. They are independent.


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## plantnoobdude (14 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> KNO3 as a nitrate source will not give good growth?


no, i'm not saying that. I'm saying trying to replicate tropica macro ppms with basic chemicals will not work well in my experience. I tried a few times and it did not work. and as for not being able to clone micros? i don't see why not, tropica lists the amounts of each micro on  the back of the bottle. though not the specific chemicals.


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## Happi (14 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> You can replicate the Tropica macro ppms. You cannot replicate the trace elements because they are not fully detailed.
> 
> Several liquid fertilisers use a mix of Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium  Sulfate, and Urea, together with other NO3 sources. On the other hand, not many people using dry salts are using Ammonium or Urea in their salt mix, regardless of whether they are using EI or cloning some other fertiliser. Are you saying that using KNO3 as a nitrate source will not give good growth? If that were the case, then fertilising with dry salts would not work for an overwhelming majority, which is not the case.


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> I can only speak based on my personal experience and those who use both systems and it seems that they rather prefer Tropica  when it comes to plant growth. for lower cost you can choose to go with dry salts. you can literally clone the tropica and any name brand if you are willing to put some effort into it, the cost is almost same as buying the dry salts.


750 ml of Tropica Specialized costs 20 EUR here. How can the costs be similar? The cost of Tropica is at least 10x more if we use Tropica's dosage, and will be higher if the dosage is increased because of CO2 injection and light.


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> no, i'm not saying that. I'm saying trying to replicate tropica macro ppms with basic chemicals will not work well in my experience. I tried a few times and it did not work.


Why not? 


plantnoobdude said:


> and as for not being able to clone micros? i don't see why not, tropica lists the amounts of each micro on  the back of the bottle. though not the specific chemicals.


Micros are more complicated because of the chelators, even if you know the ppm of each element.


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## plantnoobdude (14 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> Micros are more complicated because of the chelators, even if you know the ppm of each element.


how so? now lets take the Fe percentage of 0.069% i assume that is the percentage of pure Fe and not the chelated Fe no? correct me if i've gone horribly wrong somewhere! If so, how does the Ukaps IFC calculator work in cloning micros.


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## Happi (14 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> 750 ml of Tropica Specialized costs 20 EUR here. How can the costs be similar? The cost of Tropica is at least 10x more if we use Tropica's dosage, and will be higher if the dosage is increased because of CO2 injection and light.


I didn't put it right, just corrected it.


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## Happi (14 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> Why not?
> 
> Micros are more complicated because of the chelators, even if you know the ppm of each element.


Am quite sure my tropica clone is working very well weather it was chelated or non chelated


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> how so? now lets take the Fe percentage of 0.069% i assume that is the percentage of pure Fe and not the chelated Fe no? correct me if i've gone horribly wrong somewhere!


How will you deliver the Fe (or other element) in your clone? Different brands of fertilisers use different combination of chelators to determine the availability of the element.


plantnoobdude said:


> If so, how does the Ukaps IFC calculator work in cloning micros.


The same way as it does with macros... it determines the amount of substance to be used to reach a specific ppm. The calculator also does not tell you to use Ammonium Nitrate or Urea instead of Potassium Nitrate, right?


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## Happi (14 Feb 2022)

@arcturus
Tropica use HEEDTA and DTPA Fe if that helps. They do not use KNO3 for sure, but use NH4 or urea, test kits only detected Ammonium and 0 NO3 when people tested the tropica. 

They likey use DTPA and HEEDTA to chelate remaining Micros. For our purpose we do not have to chelate every micro for it to be effective. Even though chelated one are more stable.


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> @arcturus
> Tropica use HEEDTA and DTPA Fe if that helps. They do not use KNO3 for sure, but use NH4 or urea, test kits only detected Ammonium and 0 NO3 when people tested the tropica.


Are you using NO3 in your Tropica clone or NH4 or Urea instead? The amount of nitrates in Tropica is not that low (~7 ppm).


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## Happi (15 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> Are you using NO3 in your Tropica clone or NH4 or Urea instead? The amount of nitrates in Tropica is not that low (~7 ppm).


I think you are converting 1.34 N to NO3 and assuming that its all NO3. But it's all in ammonium form.

Yes I mostly use urea or Nh4 in my aquarium


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## MichaelJ (15 Feb 2022)

Happi said:


> Am quite sure my tropica clone is working very well weather it was chelated or non chelated


Hi @Happi did you break down the cost of your clone vs.  buying the product from Tropica... I suspect the savings would be big enough to allow one to buy a second home (provided you have enough tanks, that is)  ... Tropica Specialized is seriously expensive, at least here in the US.

Cheers,
Michael


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


arcturus said:


> After that, you do the maths and calculate the cost of using liquid fertilisers or replacing them with dry salts. You do not need dry salts to have EI, and you can use dry salts without EI. They are independent.


They definitely are independent, you can make up solutions of any strength with dry salts.  

All ions of an element or compound are the same in solution, there aren't any specific K+ (or NO3-) ions from potassium nitrate (KNO3) that differ from the K+ ions from KCl.  Nitrogen and potassium are <"highly reactive elements"> that have been incorporated  into <"thousand of different combinations in the last 4.5 billion years">.


Happi said:


> Yes I mostly use urea or Nh4 in my aquarium


Urea (CO(NH2)2) definitely looks to have advantages <"as a nitrogen source">, the only issue would be the <"rate that it is converted to TAN">.  

cheers Darrel


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## arcturus (15 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> Urea (CO(NH2)2) definitely looks to have advantages <"as a nitrogen source">, the only issue would be the <"rate that it is converted to TAN">.


Are the reasons for this understood? Is urea somehow reacting with other elements in the water? Or has the nitrogen in urea a different bio-availability to plants compared to other nitrogen sources?


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


arcturus said:


> Or has the nitrogen in urea a different bio-availability to plants compared to other nitrogen sources?


Once it was converted to ammonia (by the plant or microbe with the <"urease enzyme">) it would be  <"more readily absorbed by the plant"> than the nitrate (NO3-) ion. 

My experience using <"Miracle Gro"> has been a pretty quick greening response.

cheers Darrel


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## Happi (15 Feb 2022)

@dw1305

I haven't really tried using this but it seems to be getting some attention. is there a recipe on how much to add to get the desired ppm somewhere so people can try it?


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


Happi said:


> I haven't really tried using this but it seems to be getting some attention


It is the <"soluble feed"> that I've been using and it is still cheap. This is the nutrient  breakdown.


> Ingredients: Total Nitrogen (N) (24%) (Ammoniacal Nitrogen (3.5%), Urea Nitrogen (20.5%), Available Phosphate (P2O5) (8%), Soluble Potash (K2O) (16%), Boron (B) (0.02%), Copper (Cu) (0.07%), Water Soluble Copper (Cu) (0.07%), Iron (Fe) (0.15%), Chelated Iron (Fe) (0.15%), Magnesium (Mn) (0.05%), Chelated Manganese (Mn) (0.05%), Molybdenum (Mo) (0.0005%), Zinc (Zn) (0.06%), Water Soluble Zinc (Zn) (0.06%).
> 
> Derived from Ammonium Sulfate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Urea, Urea Phosphate, Boric Acid, Copper Sulfate, Iron EDTA, Manganese EDTA, Sodium Molybdate, and Zinc Sulfate





Happi said:


> is there a recipe on how much to add to get the desired ppm somewhere so people can try it?


It is a bit unbalanced, because of the high nitrogen content, If you went for the equivalent of 30 ppm NO3  you would need to add ~7 ppm N and everything would follow from there. I've not been <"using it very scientifically">.

If you were willing to <"spend a little more money"> the <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4 formulation"> would be better.

cheers Darrel


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## eminor (9 Oct 2022)

I don't know what tropica put in their fertilizer but i've never seen such healthy plant and color with basic dry powder (KNO3, etc).

For small tank, not worth to use dry powder


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## Hufsa (9 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> I don't know what tropica put in their fertilizer but i've never seen such healthy plant and color with basic dry powder (KNO3, etc).
> 
> For small tank, not worth to use dry powder


They use NH4NO3. The ammonia is likely what gives the plants the boost


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## eminor (9 Oct 2022)

Hufsa said:


> They use NH4NO3. The ammonia is likely what gives the plants the boost


That's explain a lot yes, i tried to get nh4no3, no way in my country, i think they use it to make bomb, i was thinking about replace it with NH4CL


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## JoshP12 (9 Oct 2022)

eminor said:


> That's explain a lot yes, i tried to get nh4no3, no way in my country, i think they use it to make bomb, i was thinking about replace it with NH4CL


Dose less KNO3 and feed fish more.


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## dw1305 (10 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


eminor said:


> I don't know what tropica put in their fertilizer but i've never seen such healthy plant and color with basic dry powder (KNO3, etc).


It might be the <"urea (CO(NH2)2) / ammonium (NH4+) content">.

I was sorting out some Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) for @GHNelson last week, and I noticed that it wasn't as green as I might like, so when I was <"watering the house plants"> on Saturday morning I gave them, an entirely non-scientific,  <"quick slosh of Solufeed"> (containing urea), and by Sunday morning they had miraculously greened up.

cheers Darrel


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