# Flora max V Eco complete



## Mark*

Has anyone used these two?  Ive looked at both, not sure which is better though...

I am definately going with akadama to make up the bulk of my substrate, but i was thinking of getting one of these to mix in,in what proportions well,i'm working that one...
Advice anyone?

Cheers,
Mark


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## ceg4048

Hi,
   Neither of these substrates are particularly amazing. EcoComplete is basically hard clay, which has good CEC, so it's not much better than the Akadama. For the price of EcoComplete I'd rather get a nutrient rich substrate such as ADA Aquasoil or equivalent. I guess it depends on the reason that you want to mix the two substrates. If it's for aesthetics then it's a subjective choice, but if it's a performance issue I wouldn't bother with either. Just use the Akadama and save your money.

Cheers,


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## Mark*

Thanks for the advice, i will look into the ADA.
What i am trying to do is get the best substrate i can,right from the start, to be honest, i need the guidance.I have to cover 1 metre by 1.5 metres, so cost is an issue but not wholly prohibitive. As for aesthetics,i dont really mind too much.

Thanks again,

M.


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## Luketendo

Mark* said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice, i will look into the ADA.
> What i am trying to do is get the best substrate i can,right from the start, to be honest, i need the guidance.I have to cover 1 metre by 1.5 metres, so cost is an issue but not wholly prohibitive. As for aesthetics,i dont really mind too much.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> M.



ADA is generally considered the best, particularly the Amazonia version which is the most nutrient rich. However it is almost the most expensive here in the UK.


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## George Farmer

Mark,

As mentioned if you're spending a fair amount then I'd consider a complete soil substrate over the CaribSea products.

ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia is excellent, but avoid the type II version as it causes a lot of issues with clouding/dust etc.  Even Jeff Senske (basically ADA USA) has given the same feedback.

Also consider Columbo Flora Base, Oliver Knott's Nature Soil, and TMC NutraSoil (released December 2010).  These are designed to be used exclusively where the ADA Aqua Soil is designed to be used with other ADA additives i.e. Power Sand, Bacter 100, Tourmaline BC, Penac P/W etc.  However, you will get good results with Aqua Soil alone.

One side effect of some soils is that they release ammonia in the first few weeks (especially ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia).

Have a scan through the threads in this sub-forum to get a better idea.

One drawback to soil-based substrates is that they tend to break down over the months into a 'mud'.  This is fine if you are keeping an aquascape long-term with little plans for uprooting plants and moving stuff around.  However, if you like to 'tinker' with your plant positions and hardscape (that many of us do, especially newcomers), then this can result in major clouding issues, and potential ammonia spikes, leading to algae and 'dirty' water.

These days I'm actually a fan of inert substrates, or a nutrient-rich base layer topped with an inert substrate.  It's much lower cost, and re-scaping isn't as much of an issue.  My latest Iwagumi tank is plain 1-2mm sand, for instance.

Anyway, plenty of food for thought no doubt.  You'll hear lots of varying opinions and experiences on here, which is great!  At the end of the day, if the other components in your set-up are ideal (light, CO2, nutrients, filtration, circulation), then substrate choice isn't actually that important!


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## Mark*

Thanks George, really informative. I have read many thread on here over the last few days,still going through them to be honest. Its the sheer variety of substrates that are confusing, it seems to me,ten years many of them didnt exist?
I remember having gravel and sand in my old FW tank,dosed with a Kent plant fertiliser if my memory serves me right.?
The tank was ok,but not like what i see on here....things certainly have changed.

Humour me for a moment,am i right in thinking that a cleaner inert base,akadama for instance is the way to go albeit for me. It appears to me that with regard to current advancement in the estimative index dosing methods,that this would be most suitable? From my past experiences,it is easier to control nutrients in the water column than those permanently in situe.  I am  liking the IE ideology more and more, i just have to reverse evrything i have got used to in a reef environment
I have the 10x turnover P/H, i can add another 24x turnover with my power heads, CO2 is already in place,and i have a range from between 320 watts on T5s alone, and another 868 if i use my Metal halide unit.
I think i am starting to get my  head away from marines and back to FW slowly!  i think,well i am working on it.


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## ceg4048

Hello,
       Despite the seemingly bewildering array of substrate choices, there is really not _that_ much difference between them. People fall victim to marketing ploys and become confused because they lack the basic information. Just about all of the so-called aquatic sediments are made of some kind of clay. It will be either a hard clay or a soft clay.The reason for this, as I mentioned before, is that clay has the ability to absorb nutrients from the surrounding environment and to relay it to the plant roots. Sand has a good (but not great) ability to perform this transfer, whereas synthetic gravels and pebbles do not have this ability at all. This ability is referred to as the Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC).

All of these aquatic sediment brands therefore can be classed in only 5 categories:
Category 1: Basically inert clay with high CEC.
Category 2: Inert clay impregnated with small amounts of micronutriens such as Iron and Magnesium. Volcanic gravel such as basalt also fall into this category.
Category 3: Clay impregnated with macronutrients (NPK), micronutrients, and peat.
Category 4: Organic mulch or other supplement to be used under another (normally inert) substrate.
Category 5: Essentially Garden Soil/Compost.

Akadama is category 1, whereas the Caribsea products are category 2. Elite products such as ADA Aquasoil and Oliver Knott's Nature Soil are category 3. There aren't many category 3 products and really, these are the only ones that can be argued to be worth the big money.

EcoComplete is a misnomer. In fact it isn't really "complete", because it has no NPK. This is not a big deal, especially when dosing the water column, but the fact is that you're paying category 3 prices for a category 2 product. It really should be called "EcoSemiComplete". A claim to fame for this product is that it's sold in a bag with bacteria soup. This is another marketing ploy because you can get bacteria anywhere for free.

So all one has to do is to check the ingredients on the package and compare that with what your goals are for a sediment.

For those people where cost is an issue, it's very easy to use a category 1 substrate and to simulate a category 3 substrate by simply adding their own NPK, micronutrients and peat to the bottom of the substrate. All one has to do is to go to the garden center and pick up some slow release terrestrial fertilizer such as Osmocote and lay a few teaspoons on the bottom glass, lay down small amounts of crushed peat, and then cover this with the Akadama (or with the cheap molar clay substrate of your choice).

When dosing per EI principles, the sediment choice is much less important. Plants feed from both water column as well as sediment as the opportunity presents itself. Therefore we are free to choose the nutrient location. Ideally, we would like to have nutrients located in both locations, but each technique has their own favorite location. EI concentrates on water column dosing. Organic waste, and the CEC property of clay sediments will ultimately transfer nutrients to the sediment. This is cheap and effective. Methods such as The ADA system put maximum emphasis on sediment nutrition while minimizing water column dosing. This is effective but is definitely not cheap. Again, because plants are flexible in terms of where they feed, we can "mix-and-match" as we see fit.

Hope this clarifies.

Cheers,


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## Mark*

Thankyou for the detailed breakdown,that really has clarified things for me.I am starting to see the way forward now..

Mark


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## Paul195

As a beginner, this thread has also helped me with my tank planning.

Thanks


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## AndrewH

Paul195 said:


> As a beginner, this thread has also helped me with my tank planning.
> 
> Thanks


 
Just to echo this sentiment. really great info for such a bewildering subject as substrates!
Thanks.


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