# To sump or n̶o̶t̶ to sump? (Swan Lake)



## DeepMetropolis (27 Feb 2020)

Have an 130x50x50 rimless display tank and I'm thinking about changing to a sump. Main reason is that I really hate my Oase bm600 filter, it sucks in lots of air and its a pain to start up without water leaking from everywhere. Already opened the whole had unit up cleaned everything and put it back to gather it still it a pain in the ass. Also it sits in a rather inconvenient place where I have to tilt the whole thing to its side to get it out for cleaning. Now I alot of air trapped up in the co2 reactor rendering the reactor useless.

So my thoughts where on getting a sump I like the idea of more water volume and easy cleaning access. I would like to use it with an hang on overflow wouldn't want to empty the whole tank for drilling holes..I don't really like the look of them but I will try to hide it behind emersed growing plants or something.. 

But how is it with noise, I love to listen to music in a quite room free from distracting noises? (Not that it is now with the current air sucking filter.) 
What are your thoughts on this should I invest in it or is it a better idea to buy an other canister?


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## Wookii (27 Feb 2020)

I'm going through the same thought process as you regarding a possible future tank of similar dimensions. There are a lot of factors in favour of a sump if you can get past the possible initial complexity of set-up.

There is a lot of inspiration to be had from @Geoffrey Rea 's journal tank - well worth a read through if you haven't already: Taking a sump. Back in five minutes...


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## DeepMetropolis (27 Feb 2020)

Yes I had read that journal it is very informative. I'm also looking at the fluval fx6 now since there is an good offer now.
But for sumps the option of having an extra plant holding tank also got my intrest.. And an fluval doesn't have an build in heater..


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Feb 2020)

Read alot about it looked at tons of youtube vids.. The https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/planted-tank-sump-design-need-your-feedback.50813/ was very helpful also.  

I decided to give it a go.. Now was looking at pumps and Aquamedic DC Runner 3.2 looks like an good option, it is flow controllable and 3000L/h looks more then what I ever need for this tank. 
Still don't know what overflow I'm going to get there are not much options in the Netherlands at least not I can find on the web..


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## Wookii (29 Feb 2020)

Good man, I’m going to follow your progress with interest.

What other pumps have you considered?

It would be great if you could post details of your designs for the sump and pipe work as you come up with them, either here or in a journal.


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Feb 2020)

Yes ive looked at Jebao DCP3000 and the Eheim CompactON 3000. The Aquamedic maybe a bit higher in the price range but it does look solid and I got good experience with aquamedic equipment so far.. 

For overflow boxes. So far all I could find here are the Aquamedic OFB and Skimz OM and thats it. Strange thought that there where a lot more of options available in europe.. I'm even considering to drill a hole in the tank as there are really slick options like 
The Modularmarine low profile overflow box, or the Eshopps Eclipse. But only thing is not available here!


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## Wookii (29 Feb 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Yes ive looked at Jebao DCP3000 and the Eheim CompactON 3000. The Aquamedic maybe a bit higher in the price range but it does look solid and I got good experience with aquamedic equipment so far.
> 
> For overflow boxes. So far all I could find here are the Aquamedic OFB and Skimz OM and thats it. Strange thought that there where a lot more of options available in europe.. I'm even considering to drill a hole in the tank as there are really slick options like
> The Modularmarine low profile overflow box, or the Eshopps Eclipse. But only thing is not available here!



I know there must be thousands of people out there running hang on overflow solutions without an issue, and I know Geoffrey Rea is happy that his is virtually fault proof, but personally I’ll definitely be going for a drilled version. I just wouldn’t be able to rest easy with even the slightest risk of siphon failure on a hang on unit.

I like the look of the Eshopps unit - I would want a clear one so I could see what was going on in there. The Modularmarine ones appear to be black other than the lids.

On the pumps, I like Aquamedic stuff too, usually very good quality. I think pumps used frequently by the marine guys is a good place to look, since they use sumps more commonly, but I guess pond pumps could also be a consideration. I was quite surprised by the lack of option from Eheim. Like you, I think DC pumps to enable flow control are important. Balancing inflow rates I suspect will be an important part of set up.


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Feb 2020)

Just counted what the cost would be if ordering from the US vs the hang on back from here, and i must say ordering from the the US is cheaper..

The modular marine looks nice cause its so thin.. But I like the transparency and especially the red pipe of the eshopps 
Bare in mind I will fit it to the side of my tank insgtead of the back.

Hope 12mm glass would be easy enough to drill.. I'm handy enough to build and repair alot of stuff myself but never drilled a tank and since its my main tank i'm quite scared for it.. Already checked if its not tempered..


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## strat100 (29 Feb 2020)

Just bought an Eshopps Eclipse from Usa and it arrived inside 2 weeks,https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eshopps-...400958&hash=item1ef5fda776:g:ts8AAOSwFzZbuQoT Duty and everything sorted when you buy it so no surprise bills to pay. Plucking up courage to drill the hole now


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Feb 2020)

strat100 said:


> Just bought an Eshopps Eclipse from Usa and it arrived inside 2 weeks,https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eshopps-...400958&hash=item1ef5fda776:g:ts8AAOSwFzZbuQoT Duty and everything sorted when you buy it so no surprise bills to pay. Plucking up courage to drill the hole now



Oops the last one was impulsively ordered just now..


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## DeepMetropolis (1 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> It would be great if you could post details of your designs for the sump and pipe work as you come up with them, either here or in a journal.



Well lets continue my journal here! I started one of this tank with this at the barrreport and thats more or less a ghost forum now, pity I learned allot there.. Maybe some of the mods can move it to Journals?

Here are the pics from how I started till how it sort of looks now.









Dimensions as already said above are 130x50x50cm.
Some info about gear: 3x Aquamedic Qube plant 50. Co2 Aquamedic reactor with an modded UP aqua regulator with 2kg bottles. Oase biomaster 600 2x Hydoror koralia nano wavemakers. Dosing with own mixed ferts based on EI.

I also ordered the Aquamedic dc pump now.. So as they say here 'De kogel is door de kerk.'..


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## Wookii (1 Mar 2020)

Nice tank - that’s a lot of Buce growth!

In terms of drilling the hole, I drilled one in my current 600mm tank. It was fairly straight forward but took quite a long time to get through the glass - and that must be only about 4mm or so. But that was drilling vertically whilst the tank was empty, which allows you to use a wooden guide and washer to create a well of water to lubricate and cool the cutting.

If you’re cutting whilst the tank is in situ, you need to plan it carefully so you can constantly wet the cutter as it’s cutting the glass. Assuming your tank is 12-15mm, it going to take some time to get through it I should think. Plus you need two holes!

Do you plan to only outflow from the tank via the overflow?

This is something that I have been thinking about for a while. The one benefit of canisters is that the extraction point from the tank is usually down near the substrate level, so a lot of detritus gets removed, where an overflow doesn’t achieve that.

When I research it, I found that it is possible to have a standard tube outflow with a sump, you just have to add a small hole in the outflow pipe just below the intended water level, to break the siphon in the event of a pump failure.


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## DeepMetropolis (1 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Nice tank - that’s a lot of Buce growth!.


Thanks! Yes so much for slow growing buces with me they almost grow as fast as limnophila 



Wookii said:


> In terms of drilling the hole, I drilled one in my current 600mm tank. It was fairly straight forward but took quite a long time to get through the glass - and that must be only about 4mm or so. But that was drilling vertically whilst the tank was empty, which allows you to use a wooden guide and washer to create a well of water to lubricate and cool the cutting.



I'm kind of scared of doing so.. Applying no pressure and letting the drill to do the work but I have seen other people on you tube doing it, for keeping it cool I let my wife stand by with an presurised water spraywith a lot of towels on the table. Should I use normal cool water or ice water?. I don't see no one applying some kind of board to the back with clamps is that wrong to do? Some use painting tape to hold the back.. 

And no was not planning to add an return pipe so far. I vacuum what I can biweekly don't think it will make much of a difference mulm is building up in corners now anyway..


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## Wookii (1 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> I'm kind of scared of doing so.. Applying no pressure and letting the drill to do the work but I have seen other people on you tube doing it, for keeping it cool I let my wife stand by with an presurised water spraywith a lot of towels on the table. Should I use normal cool water or ice water?. I don't see no one applying some kind of board to the back with clamps is that wrong to do? Some use painting tape to hold the back..
> 
> And no was not planning to add an return pipe so far. I vacuum what I can biweekly don't think it will make much of a difference mulm is building up in corners now anyway..



I would think you would be best with some large buckets beneath where you are cutting, and create something to direct the flow of water into the bucket (some sheets of plastic or foil taped to the glass perhaps), then keep emptying them as you need to.

Then you can have a small continuous flow of water. If it were me, I’d make my jig/template hole in a piece of MDF as per the videos you’ve no doubt seen, and add a small hole just above the main hole to take some airline or CO2 tubing, and pump a constant small trickle of water through it and down over the cutting hole.

You don’t need to chill the water, it’s not so much for heat as lubrication. The diamond hole cutters kind of grind the glass away, rather than slicing through it as they would with wood. So the water lubrication keeps the grinding smooth and prevents the cutter from snagging and cracking the glass from excessive force.

In terms of the inside of the tank, I personally applied a layer of tape to the inside, then clamped on another piece of MDF for support. You’re also going to want something on the inside to prevent all that powered glass filled water going into the tank once you break through.


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## Wookii (2 Mar 2020)

Sorry I've just realised that you guys have bought the Medium sized Eshopps overflow box, so only one hole to cut, not two as in the larger one - my mistake.

What do you intend to do in terms of the outflow pipes from the overflow box? I assume one is an emergency overflow, but the for second it seems there are a few options such as a a standard open outflow, or a Durso style outlet to minimise noise?

I'm also interested how you go about determining overflow inlet height versus main water level height in the tank? (Edit: I guess that is determined by the weir height on the inside - it that adjustable on these Eshopps units?)


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## DeepMetropolis (2 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I would think you would be best with some large buckets beneath where you are cutting, and create something to direct the flow of water into the bucket (some sheets of plastic or foil taped to the glass perhaps), then keep emptying them as you need to.


Jup it will be a messy job but I flooded the place more then once so i;m used to it 

Just found and good guideline for drilling holes. 
https://inlandcraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/how-to-drill-holes-in-aquariums.pdf
For who is interested. 

The water level height in the tank is not adjustable.. Once you drill it it is fixed so you need to think about it carefully today I was checking the the Eshopps site and discovered the Prodigy series thats has an adjustable inflow thats you can switch around.. But it cost a bit more and has an lower flow spec. 



Wookii said:


> What do you intend to do in terms of the outflow pipes from the overflow box? I assume one is an emergency overflow, but the for second it seems there are a few options such as a a standard open outflow, or a Durso style outlet to minimise noise?



That I really don't know yes one stays emergency the other one well I will have to try out probably something like durso but I will try out what suits me best and of course noise limitation will  be my biggest drive.


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## Wookii (2 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> The water level height in the tank is not adjustable.. Once you drill it it is fixed so you need to think about it carefully today I was checking the the Eshopps site and discovered the Prodigy series thats has an adjustable inflow thats you can switch around.. But it cost a bit more and has an lower flow spec.



It’s a shame they made it bloody orange!!

So I guess the weir height is tricky. You obviously want the water level as high as possible on a rimless tank, but you also need the top of the weir below the rim of the glass in the event the weir gets blocked, in which case the water can flow over the top.

I guess depending on pump flow rate the water level will be partially up the weir. What kind of gap do you think you’ll end up with between the water level and the tank rim?



DeepMetropolis said:


> That I really don't know yes one stays emergency the other one well I will have to try out probably something like durso but I will try out what suits me best and of course noise limitation will  be my biggest drive.



Yeah, noise is the thing I guess. I read a little more about it today, and as long as the main outflow doesn’t draw in air (due to the water level being high enough) it shouldn’t make any noise. That said some people appear to set the flow so the emergency overflow is running at a trickle too - so I’m not exactly sure how the thing is supposed to work!


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## DeepMetropolis (3 Mar 2020)

Haha orange is one of my favorite colors.. But it does look weird on an overflow, they make a low profile overflow but if your whole back is black you can see orange thru the cut out from the weir.

About the water level I want is as high as possible but I have to look how to achieve it when that box arrives. The mall has two pre measured lines set at 1" and 1/2"..  Ive seen a guy put the weir really high so that it stick out above the rim to achieve the highest water level possible but it doesn't look like a smart idea there is no buffer at all in your tank if something goes wrong.. I think it is best that you have pump shut off when the weir blocks and leave some to buffer water that your pump must put up before it drains the sump to shut off..
Ive read the suggestion from @zozo to put your pump on a block higher in the sump ot to use a floating switch..


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## zozo (3 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> use a floating switch..



Raising the pump in the sump and take a pump with dry-run protection is a very secure option. 

Floating switch i tried for a while, it does work but has a major flaw. This is when the pump stops the tank drains again towards the sump. This raises the switch and starts the pump again, 30 seconds later it stops the pump again, And so on and on. Switching the pump on and off every 30 seconds, this x 9 hours when you're not around can damage a pump beyond repair. 

It took me 2 pumps to find the reason, wake up one morning before the pump wore out. This helped me to develop the more obvious and better idea to raise the pump in the sump. Then it takes a very long time before a pump runs dry.


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## Wookii (3 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> Raising the pump in the sump and take a pump with dry-run protection is a very secure option.
> 
> Floating switch i tried for a while, it does work but has a major flaw. This is when the pump stops the tank drains again towards the sump. This raises the switch and starts the pump again, 30 seconds later it stops the pump again, And so on and on. Switching the pump on and off every 30 seconds, this x 9 hours when you're not around can damage a pump beyond repair.
> 
> It took me 2 pumps to find the reason, wake up one morning before the pump wore out. This helped me to develop the more obvious and better idea to raise the pump in the sump. Then it takes a very long time before a pump runs dry.



Apologies, I think I’m being thick here Marcel, I don’t understand the point regarding raising the pump higher in the sump? I would have thought it would run dry sooner if the water level in the sump is decreasing?

What would cause the sump to run dry in the first place though, an overflow blockage?

I think I must be missing some of the conversation/explanation in between here, so please feel free to point me to another thread if you’ve already explained it there.


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Mar 2020)

That seems a very good reason not to use a floating switch didn't thought of it that way..

A quote from the pumps manual. "There is an automatic shut off if there is no water for 2 minutes. Pull the plug and then re-insert it
to take the controller back into operation."
So as far it looks that it is save for that..

@Wookii, what he means is that if you have a surface left of 20l and a sumb of 40l that if you place it above the middel of the sumb you only pump up <20l back in to the aquarium before the pumps shuts off. So you never can flood the tank in case of an block in you overflow.
Although it's best for the herby style overflow to pick up the first problem it is nice to have some extra insurance..


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I don’t understand the point regarding raising the pump higher in the sump?



Some people have flooded the living room because of an overflow blockage. To prevent this ever from happening you need to calculate a little bit volumes.

Volume 1 is how much extra do you need to add to flood the tank completely? For example, 2 cm from the top rim in a 100x50cm tank is 10 litres extra and the tank will overflow.

Volume 2 is how much water is in the sump? If you have 50 litres in the sump and the pump stand on the bottom and you overflow blocks or the syphon stops for whatever reason. never say never.  you only need 10 litres to flood the tank but there will be coming 50 litres from the sump. The conclusion is, wet floor..

The solution is, raise the pump high enough that it cannot pump more water volume from the sump < volume 1.  that's the point.


Visa versa same thing, if the pump stops, there will be X volume run back to the sump. Not to overflow the sump it needs enough free buffer space to collect the volume running back during a power out.

You can install al kinds of electronic gadgets alarm bells and whistles for that. But doing simple volume calculations will prevent it for free.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> what he means is that if you have a surface left of 20l and a sumb of 40l that if you place it above the middel of the sumb you only pump up <20l back in to the aquarium before the pumps shuts off. So you never can flood the tank in case of an block in you overflow.
> Although it's best for the herby style overflow to pick up the first problem it is nice to have some extra insurance..





zozo said:


> Some people have flooded the living room because of an overflow blockage. To prevent this ever from happening you need to calculate a little bit volumes.
> 
> Volume 1 is how much extra do you need to add to flood the tank completely? For example, 2 cm from the top rim in a 100x50cm tank is 10 litres extra and the tank will overflow.
> 
> ...



Ah I see - thank for clarifying - I was being a bit dense afterall lol - in my defence it was late last night when I read that.

I know you can never say never to the possibility of a blocked overflow, but say you have a drilled overflow, so no risk of siphon break as with a hang on one. You position the top of the weir just below the tank rim, so that can overflow if the weir gets blocked. Say you have the largest version of the Eshopps overflow that has two large drilled tank holes, and three large outflow tubes - say 1 1/2" BSP. Aren't the chances of an overflow blockage pretty remote? What would it take to block them?

I guess though, with an drilled overflow weir the closest the water surface can be from the rim is going to be at best 15mm (more likely around 25mm), so on my proposed 1500 x 500 tank that's also around 11-12 litres. Assuming a 600 x 400 sump tank with a central divider, that'll be around 90-100mm of depth.



zozo said:


> Visa versa same thing, if the pump stops, there will be X volume run back to the sump. Not to overflow the sump it needs enough free buffer space to collect the volume running back during a power out.
> 
> You can install all kinds of electronic gadgets alarm bells and whistles for that. But doing simple volume calculations will prevent it for free.



Yeah, it is a good idea now I understand the thinking behind it on raising the pump. 

On the sump overflowing, presumably you can counter that with an emergency overflow or two on the sump, out to an external drain? I intend to add one anyway, as I plan to intentionally overflow the sump during automated water changes, by adding a HMA filter on a timer to flow into the tank (at a rate of around 1 litre per minute), which I assuming will increase the flow into through the overflow into the sump, raise the sump level over the overflow pushing old water out into the drain.

This is all theory for me at the minute, so please feel free to pick holes in the plan?!



DeepMetropolis said:


> That seems a very good reason not to use a floating switch didn't thought of it that way..
> 
> A quote from the pumps manual. "There is an automatic shut off if there is no water for 2 minutes. Pull the plug and then re-insert it
> to take the controller back into operation."
> So as far it looks that it is save for that..



I assume this is an Aquamedic pump you're referring to, but which model specifically?


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I assume this is an Aquamedic pump you're referring to, but which model specifically?



This is the one I ordered, Aquamedic DC 3.2


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

Blockage doesn't necessarily mean complete blockage. A dead fish or a plant leaf, dirt build-up in the pipes etc. can restrict the flow through. Make this for example 50% capacity loss and the pump works faster and the drain capacity doesn't keep up. This can finally result in the tank spilling water over the top rim.

In any case, scenarios can occur you haven't thought of before. You might never do if it never happens to you. 

Most sumps are DIY builds in theory on experience most of them are not calculated. Even tho if calculated it's a rather static calculation for ideal circumstances. But physics with natural media like water and air and flow where gravity comes to play can be rather treacherous.

A simple trapped air bubble that slowly gathers over time bouncing up and down in a tube can suddenly and significantly restrict flow through causing a capacity decline.

I've made sump setups completely from clear tubing to see what goes on in there and seen it happen. Small air bubbles being sucked into the overflow pipe, created by a dirt particle at the overflow. With the pipe completely filled with water. The bubble goes down halfway and comes back up and bounces up and down in the falling water column. Other smaller bubbles are sucked in and the bouncer bubble is slowly accumulating and getting bigger. It worked OK for months and then suddenly, it makes a difference. Without notice, while growing bigger it restricted the flow through on a daily bases for say 1% each day that was 30% after a month. Then i noticed a water level difference, higher in the tank, lower in the sump.

If i had not made the tubing from clear plastic i never ever would have seen it and likely never would have guessed that something simple like this is can occur and can play up messing with the capacity of the system. 

That's the beauty of making and working with sumps imho. Always in for surprises you didn't think about.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> Blockage doesn't necessarily mean complete blockage. A dead fish or a plant leaf, dirt build-up in the pipes etc. can restrict the flow through. Make this for example 50% capacity loss and the pump works faster and the drain capacity doesn't keep up. This can finally result in the tank spilling water over the top rim.
> 
> In any case, scenarios can occur you haven't thought of before. You might never do if it never happens to you.
> 
> ...



That's superb insight Marcel, thanks. Clear tubes is a good idea! 

How did you mitigate the bubble issue?


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

Lets talk sump design also. Below is my 'first pass' at a design, based largely on @Geoffrey Rea 's design. Have you thought about your sump design yet @DeepMetropolis?

My objectives are; 1) Wet/dry for maximum O2 diffusion, 2) design as simple as possible, 3) as easy to maintain as possible.





The drawing is just a basic guide of the design. My CAD skills don't extend to 3D so for example the three inlets would not be physically next to each other length ways, but width ways, which I can't show on a 2D drawing as they'd all be overlapping, so that is just representative (so don't take all positions literally). Some explanation:

My idea for ease of maintenance is to have a disposable (bio-degradable) pre-filter paper that I can just swap out weekly and throw away. This and a fine pre-filter sponge will be housed in a slide out drawer for easy access.
The base of the drawer will be drilled with the trickle holes to 'rain; on the bio-balls.
The bio balls will be in large mesh bags, so they can be easily removed (via the drawer opening) for cleaning.
The drawer and lid etc will have rubber seals (not shown) where needed to contain as much off-gassed CO2 as possible.
I planned to have two return pumps to the tank, feeding outlets in the main tank in either corner (circular flow in tank).
The CO2 reactor, fed by a third pump, will circulate water back to the sump (directed to the inlets on the main return pumps).
I'm quite sure there are things I have wrong in the design, and things I haven't thought of, so feedback and suggestions are actively sought please guys?


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

Thank you..


Wookii said:


> How did you mitigate the bubble issue?



Change and rebuild it completely. Oversize the tubing and sufficiently aerate it to prevent trapped air that creates a vacuum and prevent slurps and burbs. It took me about 2 years and a few rebuilds to finally build a foolproof and silent setup that works with syphon overflow.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> Thank you..
> 
> 
> Change and rebuild it completely. Oversize the tubing and sufficiently aerate it to prevent trapped air that creates a vacuum and prevent slurps and burbs. It took me about 2 years and a few rebuilds to finally build a foolproof and silent setup that works with syphon overflow.



Do you have any pictures or drawing of the final foolproof setup? It would be good to see as you've obviously been through this entire process already.


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I'm quite sure there are things I have wrong in the design



Looks good to me, i can't think of anything wrong in it. Mine looks fairly the same a tad more simplistic and smaller. But same principle, but non CO².

The only thing i added is a bypass at the pump. With the valve i regulate the pump capacity, valve fully closed is full turn over to the tank. Open valve a bit a part goes directly back into the sump.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> Looks good to me, i can't think of anything wrong in it. Mine looks fairly the same a tad more simplistic and smaller. But same principle, but non CO².
> 
> The only thing i added is a bypass at the pump. With the valve i regulate the pump capacity, valve fully closed is full turn over to the tank. Open valve a bit a part goes directly back into the sump.
> View attachment 132115



Thanks. Is that needed if you have a DC pump and controller like the Aquamedic that @DeepMetropolis  has bought? or is that mechanical solution better as it eliminates possible controller failure (potentially putting the pump at 100%)?


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Do you have any pictures or drawing of the final foolproof setup?



Very simple.  I hope the drawing says it all.




This is the overflow i'm using. Installed 2 each side 1.


This one is not from clear tube, the first one i build was clear tube to see and learn. This one works without any flaws, don't need to see it work.


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

I've used DC pumps via PWM controller in the beginning but indeed found it unreliable. It's fun to have it all fancy, but the more bells and whistles the more can go wrong and fail.

One day i thought why? I went KISS again.. Thus i made it with a regular AC pump and fine-tune the turnover with a bypass back to the sump. Works perfect.

But can imagine with CO² it will waste.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> Very simple.  I hope the drawing says it all.
> View attachment 132119



Thanks. Given I would have the one drilled weir outlet, and I would plan to position the sump such that the overflow travels vertically to the sump, are there any other considerations I should make. Should the vertical pipe slope, to eliminate the waetr drop, or incorporate some S-bends?


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## zozo (4 Mar 2020)

I do not have a huge turnover, i'm maybe at 400l/h divided over 2 overflows. Then the water doesn't fall deeper than the tank tall is, 35cm. Then it all gathers into a horizontal pipe that again has an outlet into the sump.

And i can not realistically say how your sump will run from a picture. A lot is trail and error.

But could add obvious things to take into account to expect, that the more turn over you have over a single outlet that is rather tall in height will increase the speed the water will fall. Then if all this volume comes to a sudden stop on dry media or into the water in the sump it will create splashing noise. That's why my outlet in the sump is submerged.  Then in the sump, it overflows again into the trickle compartment divided over 3 separate spray bars. To create a trickle over the media.

If the water would fall directly on top in full fall speed it is noisy.

In diagram, i did this to make it silent. That first compartment is also where my heaters are.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

zozo said:


> I do not have a huge turnover, i'm maybe at 400l/h divided over 2 overflows. Then the water doesn't fall deeper than the tank tall is, 35cm. Then it all gathers into a horizontal pipe that again has an outlet into the sump.
> 
> And i can not realistically say how your sump will run from a picture. A lot is trail and error.
> 
> ...




Hmmm . . I was trying to minimise the number of compartments in the sump, but I guess having an initial compartment would also allow me to trap any stray shrimp - a problem I was trying to think of a solution for. If I then flow over into a drip tray as in your design, I can get access to the pre-filter with a simple lid rather than the drawer idea also. The downside I guess is that I assume I'd have to be constantly cleaning crap out of that first compartment?

In terms of flow rate, I really have no idea, but I was thinking in the region of 2000-2500 litres per hour - the overflow weir/box being the limiting factor, and ensuring it has plenty of spare capacity - in the hope of avoiding the need for any in tank circulation pumps.


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Have you thought about your sump design yet @DeepMetropolis?



Yes I have a bit but I'm not sure about a trickle filter, don't think its needed for a planted tank and I'm a wary of the noise. The whole idea of building a sump was to get rit of the Oase filter and have easy maintenance and I really would like to have an compartment for plant holding in the sump and have lots of room for what ever.. Not having to trash all those buces and cuttings or plants that I just don't really have room for.. 



Wookii said:


> Thanks. Given I would have the one drilled weir outlet, and I would plan to position the sump such that the overflow travels vertically to the sump, are there any other considerations I should make. Should the vertical pipe slope, to eliminate the waetr drop, or incorporate some S-bends?


 
This is what I like to know also does it help to let the pipes go around a corner and helps with the noise of falling water? For me it does not matter at all because I can place the sump where ever I like beneath the tank. 



zozo said:


> That first compartment is also where my heaters are.



Doesn't the trickling makes your water cool faster? I guess that placing them in the last compartment is more energy saving? 

@Wookii why place your reactor on a separate pump. I'm planning to include it in the outflow in a bypass and use an ball valve to regulate the flow in the reactor so I'm sure all the dissolved co2 goes directly in the tank.


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## Wookii (4 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> @Wookii why place your reactor on a separate pump. I'm planning to include it in the outflow in a bypass and use an ball valve to regulate the flow in the reactor so I'm sure all the dissolved co2 goes directly in the tank.



I’m not sure really. My initial though was simplicity - having the CO2 on a separate loop I figured it’d be easier to maintain - I can pull it all out at any point without affecting the rest of the filter system. Plus with me originally thinking of using two pumps to the tank, that seemed an easier way of distributing CO2 rich water to both of them.

As I say though, the design is a first pass - so this kind of discussion is good, as having the CO2 in the main loop with a bypass might be the better solution.

How many outlet are you having in your tank, two? With the on pump feeding them both? Do you plan to have additional in tank circulation?


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## foxfish (4 Mar 2020)

You guys seem to be having fun designing your sumps.
I am a huge fan of overflows and sumps, I have been using them for 40 or so years right down from 10 gallon fish tanks to 12,000 gallon Koi ponds.
For planted tank application with added C02, I dont like to send too much water over the overflow but stick to 3 or 4 x the tank volume per hour.
I like to re circulate the sump water into a trickle tower and flow the Co2 back via the main pump.
I have never used an overflow box, always drilled the tank and more recently cut a 150mm x 25mm slot out of the back pane.
I favour a powerful three speed pump but they are quite high wattage.
Lots of different configurations and possibilities to suit you needs.


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## DeepMetropolis (5 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I’m not sure really. My initial though was simplicity - having the CO2 on a separate loop I figured it’d be easier to maintain - I can pull it all out at any point without affecting the rest of the filter system. Plus with me originally thinking of using two pumps to the tank, that seemed an easier way of distributing CO2 rich water to both of them.



Yes of course you where planning on two pumps then having it that way makes more sense. You can also have one strong pump drive two outlets.. 



Wookii said:


> How many outlet are you having in your tank, two? With the on pump feeding them both? Do you plan to have additional in tank circulation?



Well I have 2 wavemakers in the tank yet, the more I can get rid off the better.. But I am planning one outflow just yet. Was wondering where to place it. The sump will be on the left side of the tank near the rear as thats the only place I don't have a lot of room on the back. So I think the outflows best position is on the left side to the front of the glas?



foxfish said:


> ou guys seem to be having fun designing your sumps.
> Lots of different configurations and possibilities to suit you needs.



Yes it is really fun to do and what i like about it is that you can always change the most of it if it doesn't work out quite as you expected.


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## DeepMetropolis (5 Mar 2020)

Look what the mail has brought some npk in 1kg buckets ..


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## Wookii (5 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Yes of course you where planning on two pumps then having it that way makes more sense. You can also have one strong pump drive two outlets..



Yeah, I'm a bit undecided on the best way to go. My thought was that with two pumps I build in a little redundancy - if one pump fails, the other should still keep going and provide some circulation in the tank whilst the other is replaced.



DeepMetropolis said:


> Well I have 2 wavemakers in the tank yet, the more I can get rid off the better.. But I am planning one outflow just yet. Was wondering where to place it. The sump will be on the left side of the tank near the rear as thats the only place I don't have a lot of room on the back. So I think the outflows best position is on the left side to the front of the glas?



Ah, I didn't see your wave makers in your FTS image - I was wondering how you would get sufficient flow and distribution with a single outlet on a 1500 tank, but that explains it. I definitely want two inlets, to I can send fresh fully CO2 laden water to both the front of the tank, and the rear.

I'm also considering using my Oase BM600 for helping with some filtering and distribution as it'll be sitting redundant with a new tank. My idea would be to have two inlets in the rear corners and a single outlet at the rear corner. 

I know that seems an odd idea if you're adding a sump, but I wouldn't have any media in it, and the baskets would be empty - I'd just use the finer pre-filter to help extract detritus from the substrate level at the rear of the tank - it's the one thing I can't get my head around using a sump that only extracts from the surface layer.


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## Wookii (5 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


>



As a brief aside - can I ask which Kessil (I assume they are Kessil) lights you are using there?


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## DeepMetropolis (5 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Ah, I didn't see your wave makers in your FTS image - I was wondering how you would get sufficient flow and distribution with a single outlet on a 1500 tank, but that explains it. I definitely want two inlets, to I can send fresh fully CO2 laden water to both the front of the tank, and the rear.



There is on in the right corner in the front and one in the back near the outflow.. Maybe going to get two inlets too but i'm still undecided I would like to have a minimal amount of pipes/equipment in the tank. Btw the tank isn't 1500 but 1300..

And those are not Kessils these are Aquamedic Qube 50 plant, pretty happy with them only thing is that if you turn up the lights to their highest settings the get to blue in my opinion..


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## zozo (5 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> I'm not sure about a trickle filter, don't think its needed for a planted tank and I'm a wary of the noise.



In how far a sump, in general, is needed for a planted tank is rather debatable. Can you filter too much? I guess not. Is more filter capacity than you really need with a sump better than simply sufficient filter capacity over a canister? I also guess not.

The best thing about a sump is, it needs far less maintenance and cleaning than a canister. Is this a need? Could be, for personal reasons.

But guessing with a reasonable doubt that too much doesn't apply in this case.. Rock and Roll! It's fun.. 



DeepMetropolis said:


> Doesn't the trickling makes your water cool faster?



I really can't say.  But i like my fish tanks in the cool range at 21°C tops during winter time and a minimum turnover. After a water change, the temperature is back on track within 30 minutes.


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## DeepMetropolis (5 Mar 2020)

I run my tank at 24/26°C.. Don't think most of my fish would not really love to cool water.. If 21°C was enough I probably don't really have I need for a heater it rarely gets below here in the living room.


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## DeepMetropolis (6 Mar 2020)

Am doing a water change and something has caught my attention.. I have a steel in and out take but wat if a cut off the outlet I have two inlets one higher and one lower.. Kinda waste for an outlet but could be handy for the sump right? Just a thought..


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## DeepMetropolis (7 Mar 2020)

The pump arrived in the mail today.. Tested it out in the tank, it had so much power that I had a wet floor.


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## Wookii (7 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Am doing a water change and something has caught my attention.. I have a steel in and out take but wat if a cut off the outlet I have two inlets one higher and one lower.. Kinda waste for an outlet but could be handy for the sump right? Just a thought..



That’s what I intend to do - have one outlet in each corner (i.e. one of each pump) but two physical openings on each so I can direct flow to the surface with one, and towards the bottom of the tank with the other.

I was looking at something like this (or a modified version thereof):



That might even fit over your stainless steel pipe once cut!


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## DeepMetropolis (7 Mar 2020)

Yes but I'm thinking of placing the inlets on the left front side of the tank so that I have good circulation.. From left front to the right and back to left back side where the overflow comes.. Or I can have the lower sawed off below the overflow from back to front and on the right side the higher one from back to front. Hmm options, options..


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## DeepMetropolis (11 Mar 2020)

The overflow box arrived yesterday. Now I had some time to think about the plumbing This is what I came up with so far. It's not a fancy cad drawing but I hope you will get the idea.. All the piping from the pump will be 25mm accept the hoses to the co2 reactor en the hoses to the tank..


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## Wookii (11 Mar 2020)

Looks good to me  (not that I really know that much).

What are you going to use for the pipe work. I was originally thinking about standard grey rigid tubing as you common see for pnds etc, but since @zozo mention the benfint of being able to see in the pipes, I've been wondering whether clear flexible hosing might be better, and easier to install. Either standard clear hose like this: Ebay or reinforced hose like this, that might be possible to shape: RS


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## DeepMetropolis (11 Mar 2020)

I will use just regular pvc for most part cheaper and finding clear corners en valves would be challenging.. But the drain pipes from the overflow will be clear pvc as that would be in sight and I don't want that ugly gray to be visible..

Ooh from the pump to the first nippel will be flexible hosing so I can still move the pump around..


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## Alex C (11 Mar 2020)

I've not set anything like this up but just a thought re the co2 diffuser. Will the ball valves be controlled along with the Co2 solenoid so that the bypass closes when the co2 is on?

If not, is there a chance most of the water will just go through the none diffuser pipe as it will be the path of least resistance?


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## zozo (11 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Either standard clear hose like this: Ebay or reinforced hose like this, that might be possible to shape: RS



This kind of flexible tubing is more difficult to install, 90° bends require a lot more space and the tube that was rolled up stored away, always tends to curl back. Its difficult to get it and keep it straight. 



DeepMetropolis said:


> finding clear corners



I've happened to save this one in my wishlist 
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32832373512.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.126d2e0ecuGwAS
If you do a search they also come in 32mm if you want or need some.


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## DeepMetropolis (11 Mar 2020)

Alex C said:


> I've not set anything like this up but just a thought re the co2 diffuser. Will the ball valves be controlled along with the Co2 solenoid so that the bypass closes when the co2 is on?
> 
> If not, is there a chance most of the water will just go through the none diffuser pipe as it will be the path of least resistance?


No this is an reactor, the valves will not close. The reason of the valves is to regulate the flow trough each pipe the reactor operates optimal around 900l/h the pump can be set to 3000l/h.. I probably won't run full speed but I have the option to fine tune everything and always have room to increase or decrease the overall flow in the tank..


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## Alex C (11 Mar 2020)

Ah makes a lot of sense!


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## DeepMetropolis (14 Mar 2020)

So I ordered the pvc will be in next week or so..
Now I have to determine where the inflow has to come, I have two pipes one higher and on lower.. I think that the first drawing is the best option, but I have to drill holes in the table for that so if it's there it is for good..
Any thoughts or other option on this?


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## Wookii (14 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> So I ordered the pvc will be in next week or so..
> Now I have to determine where the inflow has to come, I have two pipes one higher and on lower.. I think that the first drawing is the best option, but I have to drill holes in the table for that so if it's there it is for good..
> Any thoughts or other option on this?



Personally I’d have it as the first drawing, but with the low outlet in the rear right corner firing down the back of the tank, maintaining the circular flow, but also getting some CO2 rich water to your rear stems.

On the front left high outlet, you can angle it towards the front glass so there is also some downward movement towards the front low level plants.


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## DeepMetropolis (14 Mar 2020)

You mean like this? Then the right inflow directly blows into a cluster of thick ferns..


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## Wookii (14 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> You mean like this? Then the right inflow directly blows into a cluster of thick ferns..


 Fair enough, it’s hard to tell that’s the case from your photo. Circular flow though is still the best way to avoid any dead spots I think.


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## DeepMetropolis (14 Mar 2020)

Bought a tank for the sump.. Hope it will be big enough..


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Mar 2020)

First part ready... Sorry for the bad phone drawing. Sump is curing also.. Had to redo the sump used the wrong silicon.. Always read carefully what you need there's like hundreds types of it in the store, and don't try to find it near closing time..


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Mar 2020)

I noticed today I made one fault in my design.. if the pump stops, water flows back trough it also and not only the overflow.. So i've got an out take at half of the tank that means that the half of the tank flows back to the sump..


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## Wookii (20 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> I noticed today I made one fault in my design.. if the pump stops, water flows back trough it also and not only the overflow.. So i've got an out take at half of the tank that means that the half of the tank flows back to the sump..



Your pipes are stainless steel right?

If so, you just need to drill a tiny hole in the pipe at, or just below, the target water surface level. When the pump goes off, once the tank water level reaches the hole, it should start to let in air and break the siphon.

Edit: Either that or you could possible look at a non-return valve - but I don’t know how reliable they are in an aquarium water environment (thinking clogging of the membrane etc)


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Mar 2020)

That's a good idea I've seen it before looking for sump designs.. I was already searching for return valves on the net.. But now that you tell me I didn't take the clogging in account.. So drilling holes seems like good and cheap options.


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## NOWIS (20 Mar 2020)

Hi I think your going to loose a lot of water flow with so much pipe length,corners and co2 reactor on the out flow of the pump. I would try to put the reactor on the Other side of the pump if possible.


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## Wookii (20 Mar 2020)

Simon Hellmich said:


> Hi I think your going to loose a lot of water flow with so much pipe length,corners and co2 reactor on the out flow of the pump. I would try to put the reactor on the Other side of the pump if possible.



What do you mean by ‘the other side’?


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## NOWIS (20 Mar 2020)

The pump should pull the water through the reactor not push it. My understanding is these pumps work much better that way. It should create less head pressure for the pump.


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## DeepMetropolis (20 Mar 2020)

Never seen a reactor placed before the pump.. Then what you suggest is put the pump out of the sump and let the bypass and the reactor sit in front of the pump? That means I have to order all the piping again and redo the whole thing..


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## Wookii (20 Mar 2020)

I must admit, in my own research, I’ve never seen it set up that way - the pumps are always submerged in the sump.

Might be worth dropping an email to Aquamedic @DeepMetropolis for their take on it.


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## NOWIS (20 Mar 2020)

Ok I don’t want u to have to redo the whole thing again! 
I just know that if u add a long length of hose or to many corners to the out flow of a pump u lose a lot of water pressure l/h. 
I would have the pump in the sump to depending on the model of pump.


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## DeepMetropolis (21 Mar 2020)

So far as my experiences with pot filters is if you restrict the inflow instead of the outflow in tended to suck in air cause it could not deliver the water supply that the pump would like to put out. I thought that it would apply in some way to all pumps as the intake of this pump standard is 32mm and the output is 25mm ...



Simon Hellmich said:


> I just know that if u add a long length of hose or to many corners to the out flow of a pump u lose a lot of water pressure l/h.



This is something I took in account when ordering this pump that I had more capacity then I needed.. I have jet to see if I've estimated right or wrong.. Still hope that I'm on the save side 



Wookii said:


> Might be worth dropping an email to Aquamedic @DeepMetropolis for their take on it.



Yes I will try to mail them, they should know what they made..


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## DeepMetropolis (21 Mar 2020)

Thought to be creative this morning and made an adjustable weir..


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## Wookii (21 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Thought to be creative this morning and made an adjustable weir..



Very cool! How did you do that? Can you post up some instructions?


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## DeepMetropolis (21 Mar 2020)

This is what I've done. Cut a piece of plexi glass in the size of the inside and length of the weir, not longer else you will limit the flow trough the fitting.. Mark the holes for the screws.. Dril a hole of 4mm and use an m5 wiretap.. I had an unused inlet hang on thingy that had the screws that I could salvage..

Maybe I have to round off the sharp corner of the glass if it is to noisy but it is easy removable so I can always change that..


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## Wookii (21 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> This is what I've done. Cut a piece of plexi glass in the size of the inside and length of the weir, not longer else you will limit the flow trough the fitting.. Mark the holes for the screws.. Dril a hole of 4mm and use an m5 wiretap.. I had an unused inlet hang on thingy that had the screws that I could salvage..
> 
> Maybe I have to round off the sharp corner of the glass if it is to noisy but it is easy removable so I can always change that..



Genius! I love a simple and clever after market mod!


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## DeepMetropolis (22 Mar 2020)

The drilling was a success


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## Wookii (22 Mar 2020)

Phew!! 

Is that your working water level? Or will it be a little higher once the pumps start running?


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## DeepMetropolis (22 Mar 2020)

It is the working level the pump already runs.. I could run it higher but it was set at this when starting up.. For me it is fine for now the sea don't jump out so easily.. This is about 2cm now..


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## Wookii (22 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> It is the working level the pump already runs.. I could run it higher but it was set at this when starting up.. For me it is fine for now the sea don't jump out so easily.. This is about 2cm now..



Awesome stuff! What is you in tank flow rate like versus the canister filters you had before?


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## DeepMetropolis (22 Mar 2020)

Much and much better i used to have the cannister + two wavemakers to get some flow.. Now I run the pump at 70% and I don't see any need for wavemakers.. The drop checkers turn nice green, fish love to play with the flow..

The sump is set up to have good mechanical filtration a coarse and medium chamber then trough the filter floss in a trickle tower. Where sits the hel-x media from the cannister after that there is purigen.. I have a part for plant clippings to grow out and then the pump chamber..

I used the drill a hole trick for the lowest outlet and it works like a charm.. If I switch of the power water flows back but I have plenty of room left in the sump..


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## Wookii (23 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Much and much better i used to have the cannister + two wavemakers to get some flow.. Now I run the pump at 70% and I don't see any need for wavemakers.. The drop checkers turn nice green, fish love to play with the flow..
> 
> The sump is set up to have good mechanical filtration a coarse and medium chamber then trough the filter floss in a trickle tower. Where sits the hel-x media from the cannister after that there is purigen.. I have a part for plant clippings to grow out and then the pump chamber..
> 
> I used the drill a hole trick for the lowest outlet and it works like a charm.. If I switch of the power water flows back but I have plenty of room left in the sump..



I'm glad the hole trick worked. how many holes did you put in each pipe - just one, or several as backup? Do you see much water firing out of these during normal operation?  - I did think about this the other day; you could actually add a hole above the water level, even on the top of the pipe, with a non-return valve so air can get in but water can't flow out, then you should get almost no back flow into your sump.

Also another question. When water does back flow into your sump, and the level in there increases, what happens when you turn the pump back on, does the water level go back to where it should be, or does it stay raised in the sump? Also what happens when you get evaporation, does that just reduce the level in the sump?

Have you done any other failure testing on the tank so far (weir blockage, pump failure, sump compartment blockage) etc etc?


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## Mr.Shenanagins (23 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> Also another question. When water does back flow into your sump, and the level in there increases, what happens when you turn the pump back on, does the water level go back to where it should be, or does it stay raised in the sump? Also what happens when you get evaporation, does that just reduce the level in the sump?



When the pump kicks back on, water level in the tank and sump go back to normal. Evaporation is only going to occur in the sump. since the pump is constantly feeding water to the main tank from the sump, the only place for water to be lost from evap is the sump.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (23 Mar 2020)

Not sure if I’m seeing it right, but it appears your drains go all the way to the bottom of the sump floor, am I correct? You may have an issue with air purging when you do have to shut the pump off or a power failure. The result will be lots of gurgling and the overflow’s inability to equalize due to trapped air.


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## DeepMetropolis (23 Mar 2020)

Wookii said:


> I'm glad the hole trick worked. how many holes did you put in each pipe - just one, or several as backup? Do you see much water firing out of these during normal operation? -



Just on. But thinking about a back up.. its just a small hole so no water is pouring from it as far as i can see its below the water level.. I won't do it above the water I guess it will look weird if water is spitting out from the side, just as hoses and return valves.. I think an overflow and two pipes is enough in tank gear already.. Glad I got rid of the wavemakers.



Wookii said:


> Also another question. When water does back flow into your sump, and the level in there increases, what happens when you turn the pump back on, does the water level go back to where it should be, or does it stay raised in the sump? Also what happens when you get evaporation, does that just reduce the level in the sump?
> 
> Have you done any other failure testing on the tank so far (weir blockage, pump failure, sump compartment blockage) etc etc?



Jups I did test out a few scenarios all works well.. The sump fills back up and I have 10cm from the top left can do less If I drill a hole just a bit higher then I did now.. But might just go with an return valve and have the hole for back up.. But that is an option for an other time..

The water level allways goes back up to where you set your weir.. Even if it evaporates.. I notice that if the weir gets blocked by debris the water height changes that the level in the sump lowers and since the tank has a big surface compared to what I have in the pump compartment.. I just ordered a auto top off to help counter the evaporation or the weir blockage problem.



Mr.Shenanagins said:


> Not sure if I’m seeing it right, but it appears your drains go all the way to the bottom of the sump floor, am I correct? You may have an issue with air purging when you do have to shut the pump off or a power failure. The result will be lots of gurgling and the overflow’s inability to equalize due to trapped air.



Yes its about 5cm from the bottom and I hear gurgling when I switch of the pump but did not notice any air got trapped in all the times I did switch it off.


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## DeepMetropolis (24 Mar 2020)

Today i have sanded the weir leveler to a more rounded shape to streamline the water a bit more it was falling in the in tank box that created trickling noise it got a bit less now I will try to make some sort of lit..
Raised the water level now with have around 1 cm below the rim, no change in the trickling volume so its set as it was supposed to be..
Installed Blue marine ATO.. works like a charm.. Only the water container there is had a to small opening, need around 4cm to get the small pump in. Placed it in a bucket for now..


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## DeepMetropolis (27 Mar 2020)

Okay most things are done now..  I need a lit.. But what's handy with all those pipes, hoses and wires going in?


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## Mr.Shenanagins (27 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Today i have sanded the weir leveler to a more rounded shape to streamline the water a bit more it was falling in the in tank box that created trickling noise it got a bit less now I will try to make some sort of lit..
> Raised the water level now with have around 1 cm below the rim, no change in the trickling volume so its set as it was supposed to be..
> Installed Blue marine ATO.. works like a charm.. Only the water container there is had a to small opening, need around 4cm to get the small pump in. Placed it in a bucket for now..



mine does this too sometimes depending on if there is an interruption in flow, a single leaf can do it. I believe the solution is to raise the height of the drains so that there is very minimal or no negative space between the water level and bulkhead. I believe the trickling is the water passing through the bulkhead


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## DeepMetropolis (27 Mar 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> mine does this too sometimes depending on if there is an interruption in flow, a single leaf can do it. I believe the solution is to raise the height of the drains so that there is very minimal or no negative space between the water level and bulkhead. I believe the trickling is the water passing through the bulkhead



Yes I understand but my bulkhead is flooded its simply because the water level in the overflowbox is lower then my tank lavel so everything through the weir is falling and if it catches some air in the meantime it makes more noise.. Yes plant leaves clogging up the weir makes it more worse.. I would recommend people buying this box consider cutting a part of the inner box  so that the water level from the outer box sits a bit higher making the fall less.. Wish I knew that beforehand..


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## DeepMetropolis (28 Mar 2020)

If I just place a lit over the wet/dry chamber would that help with the water evaporation and co2?
It would be much easier to make that part airtight then the whole sump..


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## Wookii (28 Mar 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> If I just place a lit over the wet/dry chamber would that help with the water evaporation and co2?
> It would be much easier to make that part airtight then the whole sump..



Yes, you want to make most areas as airtight as possible to reduce CO2 off gasing.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (28 Mar 2020)

In all honesty, if your injecting enough CO2 I don’t think off gassing will be an issue. I have almost 10x turnover with very noticeable surface movement and obviously the overflow. My tank is saturated with CO2. In regards to evaporation there isn’t much you can do without covering the tank and sump.


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## Wookii (28 Mar 2020)

Mr.Shenanagins said:


> In all honesty, if your injecting enough CO2 I don’t think off gassing will be an issue. I have almost 10x turnover with very noticeable surface movement and obviously the overflow. My tank is saturated with CO2. In regards to evaporation there isn’t much you can do without covering the tank and sump.



But that’s precisely the point - a wet and dry filter is going to be the main point of CO2 off gasing. Sure you can increase your CO2 injection so you have ‘enough’ CO2 to reach your target levels in your tank, but preventing the off gasing in your wet and dry filter should mean you need to inject less CO2, no?


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## DeepMetropolis (28 Mar 2020)

Well I sealed off the wet/dry part of the sump. It got condensation really fast so I guess it works.. I need to check the drop checker tomorrow, pity I don't have a PH test..


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Mar 2020)

So just did a big water change and alot of buce trimming.. Tank itself was a bit neglected during all the sump planning and bad co2 from the crazy biomaster cannister.. So alot of plants where over shaded and some meted..


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## Wookii (29 Mar 2020)

Looks good - really impressive Buce growth to be honest. Plus you can’t even see the overflow weir!


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## Tankless (29 Mar 2020)

What are the dimensions of the tank? Can you share a full tank shot from the front. It looks good.


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Mar 2020)

Tankless said:


> What are the dimensions of the tank? Can you share a full tank shot from the front. It looks good.


As told in the first post at least, 130*50*50cm. Here is a front tank shot.. Not so great quality as Tapatalk mess up the picture send with it..


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## DeepMetropolis (29 Mar 2020)

The right side might look real dark in photos but it doesn't in real life.. As it is not a photo contest tank but purely for our own pleasure I don't care


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## DeepMetropolis (10 Apr 2020)

Two years has passed this week, so far it was a good and educational.. Added some more manzi to cellebrate!  Maybe some more planting above the water on the braches, orchids or something other?


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## Wookii (10 Apr 2020)

How is the sump going? Any issues you've come across, or modifications you've needed to make?


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## DeepMetropolis (10 Apr 2020)

No only a lit for the wet dry and added more hellix.


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## DeepMetropolis (26 Apr 2020)

Water changing I noticed a green mountain.. 



Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G920F met Tapatalk


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## DeepMetropolis (22 May 2020)

The Mimosa is growing pretty well hope it will give me some flowers soon..


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## LondonDragon (28 May 2020)

Love that last submersed growth shot 

Featured on the UKAPS FB page!!


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## DeepMetropolis (29 May 2020)

LondonDragon said:


> Love that last submersed growth shot


Yes treated myself a new camera.. No I don't have to take crappy shots with my old phone.. 



LondonDragon said:


> Featured on the UKAPS FB page!!


Thanks man that means a lot!


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## DeepMetropolis (1 Nov 2020)

The tank after a water change today.


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## Deano3 (1 Nov 2020)

Wow what a great nature scape 

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## Wolf6 (4 Nov 2020)

Would you say these lights are sufficient for slightly more demanding plants, like rotala macrandra? I continue to be torn between the aesthetics of lights like these and the natural light with shimmer they give, vs the desire to grow red/a bit more demanding plants and have those look good. Lovely tank, very natural feel


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Nov 2020)

Wolf6 said:


> Would you say these lights are sufficient for slightly more demanding plants, like rotala macrandra? I continue to be torn between the aesthetics of lights like these and the natural light with shimmer they give, vs the desire to grow red/a bit more demanding plants and have those look good. Lovely tank, very natural feel



Thanks, I think it will grow r. macrandra the light is reasonably strong.. I bought it cause I like the shimmer effect also but if I would stand for a choice to buy it now I probably go for something else.. The plant/scape out shade others easily with these kind of lights you allways need to plan for this.


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Nov 2020)

DeepMetropolis said:


> The plant/scape out shade others easily with these kind of lights you allways need to plan for this.


Think this is an attractive quality of point source lighting, there’s a real competition going on for a valuable resource for the plants. Starts to reveal their evolutionary advantages when push comes to shove.


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## DeepMetropolis (21 Nov 2020)

One of my cleaners on the job.


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## dw1305 (21 Nov 2020)

Hi all, 


DeepMetropolis said:


> One of my cleaners on the job.


Nice, your_ Anubias_ looks very healthy. Which _Chaetostoma_ sp. is it? Is it L455? I've never seen one that looks like that.

cheers Darrel


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## DeepMetropolis (22 Nov 2020)

It is a L445. This one looks a bit brownish others look more gray.. It also depends a bit on how the licht reflects of them.. 

I had one L455 before but it survived only for a half year sadly.. Did not found them again so I went for five of these L445.. 

Greetz, Luciën.


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Apr 2021)

So the tank is three years old now. Went without co2 for a few months because of the lockdown but now I found a store that had 10kg bottles and it will last me longer 



Another shot of my main viewing angle.


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## Conort2 (4 Apr 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> So the tank is three years old now. Went without co2 for a few months because of the lockdown but now I found a store that had 10kg bottles and it will last me longer
> 
> 
> 
> Another shot of my main viewing angle.


Lovely aquarium, everything looks so healthy.

 How’s the crenicichla compressiceps with the other fish? They have to be one of my favourites but every time I’ve given them a go they turn rogue at a point and start eating the fins of other fish.

cheers


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Apr 2021)

Conort2 said:


> Lovely aquarium, everything looks so healthy.
> 
> How’s the crenicichla compressiceps with the other fish? They have to be one of my favourites but every time I’ve given them a go they turn rogue at a point and start eating the fins of other fish.
> 
> cheers


Thanks!
The Crenicichla and the Apisto are best friends, strangely they love to hang out a lot, I never ever even saw them arguing not even at feeding times. There where only males where i bought him so he came alone. The store would contact me if some females come. But since they are doing so well i'm afraid that if I introduce females he might get territorial.


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## Conort2 (4 Apr 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Thanks!
> The Crenicichla and the Apisto are best friends, strangely they love to hang out a lot, I never ever even saw them arguing not even at feeding times. There where only males where i bought him so he came alone. The store would contact me if some females come. But since they are doing so well i'm afraid that if I introduce females he might get territorial.


Sounds like you got lucky! I think it would be best to keep him by himself without other crenicichla. Compressiceps are one of the most territorial species and will kill each other even in really large tanks. I tried pairing them up before in a 5 foot tank and it turned into a war zone with one dominant fish and the others cowering under rocks.


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## DeepMetropolis (16 Aug 2021)

I spotted some egg like things on my anubias, as far as I can tell these are from the cardinals.


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## DeepMetropolis (16 Aug 2021)

Ooh the eggs are gone already, I guess there are to much predators in the tank.
So I took some pictures of the updated water line with new orchids and mist..  There is also Echinodorus uruguayensis 'flowering' only the flowers that are opening are empty like the petals has rotten the plants from it grows anyway.


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## Conort2 (16 Aug 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> I spotted some egg like things on my anubias, as far as I can tell these are from the cardinals.


I recon they’re from your corydoras instead.

cheers


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## DeepMetropolis (16 Aug 2021)

Conort2 said:


> I recon they’re from your corydoras instead.
> 
> cheers


Ooh really that's even cooler, shame that they are gone. Maybe there are some small fry somewhere but its hard to spot something in a jungle like this.


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## Conort2 (16 Aug 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Ooh really that's even cooler, shame that they are gone. Maybe there are some small fry somewhere but its hard to spot something in a jungle like this.


You sometimes get lucky and get the odd one or two survive however I recon you might struggle with the cichlids in your tank.


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## DeepMetropolis (17 Aug 2021)

Conort2 said:


> You sometimes get lucky and get the odd one or two survive however I recon you might struggle with the cichlids in your tank.


Yes I think so, and I just added a krobia in to the tank. The apisto died of old age and the krobias got bullied by a bigger one in my other tank so I transferred him and now he's a confident hunter.


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## DeepMetropolis (30 Sep 2021)

The tank was getting some BBA around alot of leaf edges. Don't know what was causing it, I think there was too much decaying matter in the tank pruned and cleaned all plants there where really alot of roots under the buces cut back most of the bad rizomes and added a few rocks too the back ground. Got rid of the emersed bolbitis planted it undewater again and made some empty space so the fish have some room to play.


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## DeepMetropolis (27 Apr 2022)

After four years it's time to strip this tank and start over. Going to use most of the plants i have in here it will be naturestyle themed with mostly epyphites only more emersed growth. I was looking for a diffrent cosmetic sand but could not find anything that fitted my vision.  So ive bought a few bags and  mixed my own. I think this will work well,  will add Dennerle Xingu gravel on the sides hopefully the Krobia Xingu likes that. 😆


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## bazz (28 Apr 2022)

DeepMetropolis said:


> After four years it's time to strip this tank and start over.


Look forward, this was one of my favourite tanks on here.
Cheers!


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## DeepMetropolis (3 May 2022)

I've got a question hope that someone has experience with. Got to hold some heavier wood picies straight up. Should I use aquarium save expanding foam or use cotton/super glue with rocks? 
The scape has to last a few years again. 



bazz said:


> Look forward, this was one of my favourite tanks on here.
> Cheers!



Thanks, that means alot with all those outstanding scapes on this forum.


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## Geoffrey Rea (3 May 2022)

DeepMetropolis said:


> I've got a question hope that someone has experience with. Got to hold some heavier wood picies straight up. Should I use aquarium save expanding foam or use cotton/super glue with rocks?
> The scape has to last a few years again.



Certainly it depends on the specifics; weight, dimensions, centre of gravity and angle you intend to place the wood. You did say straight up but will it be truly straight up?

Could the wood be positioned at that angle just using supporting rock work? In that case using a blob of JBL Pro Haru on the base glass to hold the wood down will do and Pro Haru is easily scraped off later.

Foam works when the positioning is at odds with any additional support. It is expanding though so a quarter of what you intend for final coverage when squirting it in initially. Watched a few folks get a bit enthusiastic with a foam gun and it expands way beyond what is needed. Be conservative in its application in other words. It’s a pain to clear down afterwards but you’ve stated this scape will be for a few years.

Looking forward to seeing your work @DeepMetropolis 😎


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## DeepMetropolis (3 May 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Certainly it depends on the specifics; weight, dimensions, centre of gravity and angle you intend to place the wood. You did say straight up but will it be truly straight up?
> 
> Could the wood be positioned at that angle just using supporting rock work? In that case using a blob of JBL Pro Haru on the base glass to hold the wood down will do and Pro Haru is easily scraped off later.
> 
> Foam works when the positioning is at odds with any additional support. It is expanding though so a quarter of what you intend for final coverage when squirting it in initially. Watched a few folks get a bit enthusiastic with a foam gun and it expands way beyond what is needed. Be conservative in its application in other words. It’s a pain to clear down afterwards but you’ve stated this scape will be for a few years.



Yeah you are right it's more at an angle then really straight up. That Pro Haru looks good to me, too fix the underside of the wood on the glass and the upper part then could be supported with rocks superglue and cotton.
As you said expanding foam is really hard to clean indeed if I ever end up wanting to use some of the materials later on for something else it will be a hassle.  Thanks for the help


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## DeepMetropolis (7 May 2022)

Work in progress.. Left side maybe look empty but it will be planted.. First I tried to make more of an island but it changed a bit..


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## DeepMetropolis (7 May 2022)

Dubble post..


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## DeepMetropolis (9 May 2022)

Okay not quite finnished jet but here it is already, sorry for the bad phone camera footage I was to tired to fetch a good camera. And if you ask yourself why the fish are already in there after 2 days flooding, I kept my sump running standalone all the time, the fish in tubs with wavemakers including the plants. For me this seemed better then that. I keep up with daily water changes, the plants and stones are reused ones plus de base layer of the structure was a mix of the old used aquasoil with crushed lavarock, ive topped it all of with a thick layer of fresh aquasoil  before scaping. 
Does anyone knows why my backfoil looks so bubbly? It was static window foil the thickest I could get, cleaned back of the glass with the best degreaser I could find, some microfiber cloth after that then with demineralized water and  cleaned it with microfiber again after that I sprayed it with the water again to put on the foil it looked nice and neet, went to bed and the next day it looked like this.


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## shangman (9 May 2022)

It's looking brilliant, love the new hardscape and how you've planted it, especially with the ermergent parts. Looking forward to seeing this one develop, the last scape was so beautiful.


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## DeepMetropolis (13 May 2022)

So I have planted the top part and added a sprinkler system and a humidifier. Now all there is to wait until it starts growing.
For those who are intrested in the emersed plant list :
Orchid : Pleurothallis groby, Pleurothallis sonderiana, Epidendrum porpax, Stelis sp. Panama, Bulbophyllum ambrosia, Bulbophyllum falcatum, Bulbophyllum saltatorium, Zootrophion serpentinum, Gomesa Radicans.
Moss: Taxiphyllum alternans, Taxiphyllum barbieri.
Fernmoss: Selaginella erythropus, Selaginella uncinata.
Fern: Bolbitis heteroclita difformis, Lemmaphyllum microphyllum.
Others : Neoregelia akeso, Nephentes hybrid, Solanum sp. Ecuador, Ficus quercifolia.


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## DeepMetropolis (14 May 2022)

Tried to make a better picture with an camera instead of the phone.


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## DeepMetropolis (6 Jun 2022)

So running almost a month now, had to combat brown algae it was most persistent in the submersed moss on the top wood and alot of bba on the buce.s The plants are starting to settle a bit more  and the lotus bulb started to get some leaves .Got me a ph pen to make an profile got a 1 point ph drop after 4hrs before lights on and that stays stable whole day round.  Also have otocinclus laying eggs most where eten but rescued one and put in in the floating box thingy it hatched and still survives they soon laid some new eggs and now waiting for them to hatch. Yesterday I went to a terrarium fair and got a new orchid, bromeliad and a mini begonia.


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## DeepMetropolis (12 Jul 2022)

Everything is growing good so far the orchids quite like it they are flowering and growing good for me. The one on the last picture have incridible tiny flowers not bigger then a pin head.


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