# The Original



## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Tim Harrison (3 Sep 2022)

Four giant posts bringing us up to speed and getting the journal off to a great start. Looking fantastic with the substrate in 👍


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## Courtneybst (3 Sep 2022)

Looking great Geoffrey! 😍 One day I'll be ballsy enough to mix sand and aquasoil. 

The title drew me in though! Never underestimate the power of a good journal title!


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## Flukeworld (3 Sep 2022)

Cant wait to see more! Amazing planning /start!


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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)

For 200 litres of RODI:

1.6g Calcium Chloride
8.0g Calcium Sulphate 
8.0g Magnesium Sulphate
2.8g Potassium Carbonate


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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)

5 litres:

225g Potassium Sulphate
6g TNC Trace
5g E300 Ascorbic Acid
2g E202 Potassium Sorbate
5 litres RODI water

Dose 15ml per 100 litres per day.


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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)




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## Gmaqua73 (3 Sep 2022)

Looks really  good, I would deffo add purichem to top tray after white pad in eheim pro4, I use my old blue top mat on bottom tray, then old polishing pad on tray 3 regardless of new in uppers. Driftwood leaches & I like clear water. Also lob the poor plastic twirls in bottom & 2nd trays & replace with Eheim Mac ceramic rings. just done my maintenance & co2 on currently.


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## Gmaqua73 (3 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> View attachment 193825
> 
> View attachment 193826
> 
> ...


Is that a 350 & 350 T eheim pro4?


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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)

Gmaqua73 said:


> Looks really good, I would deffo add purichem to top tray after white pad in eheim pro4, I use my old blue top mat on bottom tray, then old polishing pad on tray 3 regardless of new in uppers. Driftwood leaches & I like clear water. Also lob the poor plastic twirls in bottom & 2nd trays & replace with Eheim Mac ceramic rings. just done my maintenance & co2 on currently.



Hi @Gmaqua73 and nice setup 😎 

Both filters only have prefilter sponges and two trays with media in. The trays are only half full as well, so quite minimal. Good flow across the media is prioritised to keep it maximally oxygenated.

Will run Purigen eventually. For the first four weeks will be performing daily water changes, lessening the tannins with each water change.



Gmaqua73 said:


> Is that a 350 & 350 T eheim pro4?



Eheim Pro 3e 600T and an Eheim Pro 4 600. Both done many years of service.


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## plantnoobdude (3 Sep 2022)

My crappy phone took ages to load this page, was worth the wait! Absolutely stunning 😍


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## Gmaqua73 (3 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Hi @Gmaqua73 and nice setup 😎
> 
> Both filters only have prefilter sponges and two trays with media in. The trays are only half full as well, so quite minimal. Good flow across the media is prioritised to keep it maximally oxygenated.
> 
> ...


I have a 350t & 350 just for extra flow with minimal media. Mine are 5 years old & never let me down apart from the valve tap. Since then I use divers silicone grease & lubricate the roller balls inside & latches. Massive difference , all my filtration is eheim & Co2 & substraite ada( 4 years old)


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## Geoffrey Rea (3 Sep 2022)

plantnoobdude said:


> My crappy phone took ages to load this page, was worth the wait! Absolutely stunning 😍



Hopefully it was worth the wait. Lots of pictures so it’s demonstrative without words, but yes, load time will take a hit.

Meagrely planted at this point so all to play for in the first month. Get some plant mass going.



Gmaqua73 said:


> I have a 350t & 350 just for extra flow with minimal media. Mine are 5 years old & never let me down apart from the valve tap. Since then I use divers silicone grease & lubricate the roller balls inside & latches. Massive difference , all my filtration is eheim & Co2 & substraite ada( 4 years old)



Good filters, but yes, they need silicone grease etc periodically to keep the cassette/taps working without issue.


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## DeepMetropolis (4 Sep 2022)

Great start, and enough nutrients. Following with interest as always


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Sep 2022)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Great start, and enough nutrients. Following with interest as always



Cheers Luciën 👍🏽 

Month of water changes ahead then we’ll see how we are doing. Certainly plenty of tannins to remove this month:


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## PARAGUAY (4 Sep 2022)

It's a great thread agree, a bit of planning and thought gone into this, Maybe l can increase my knowledge a little. 🙂


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## Libba (4 Sep 2022)

As someone who only looks at the pictures and doesn't read much, I really appreciate the style of this journal. What type of moss is that?


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Sep 2022)

Libba said:


> As someone who only looks at the pictures and doesn't read much, I really appreciate the style of this journal.



Deliberately broke away from the New Decade, New Decadence journal for that reason @Libba .

It’s a scapers tank this time and hoping to improve the use of hardscape and planting, less talk about how to run a tank and just show your work. Lot’s of pictures so potentially others may pick up on something they might find useful, or not 🤷🏻‍♂️ 



Libba said:


> What type of moss is that?



If you mean high on the wood at the back, that’s Riccardia chamedryfolia:


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## Deano3 (4 Sep 2022)

Simply perfection 😁 as always great work so far, followed by great explanation and photos,  always love your jurnals very helpful to everyone   looks even better now the substrate system is in blended it all together brilliantly.

Looks very natural and also reminds me of lord of the rings and game of thrones type of scenery, hardscape looks spot on i love it, and a bit different in a good way, love harscape heavy scapes.

Dean


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## Geoffrey Rea (4 Sep 2022)

Cheers @Deano3 

Not gonna lie, there’s a tank rammed with stems in the conservatory and it was very difficult resisting the temptation to simply pack it out with plants as usual 😂


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## Deano3 (4 Sep 2022)

🤣🤣🤣 i can imagine it was hard for you, but like you say good to try new things sometimes and try something different with a bit more focus on hardscape and less plants be a nice  change for you,  i think will turn out a stunner,will look great once some fish as im there swimming aroind in all the nooks and crannies.

Also love the valley and the depth the hardscape gives.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Sep 2022)

Daily 50% water changes for 28 days






Wastewater = Plant Food





























No waste… Flower Power 🌸  🌺 🌹


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## Thea B (6 Sep 2022)

Such a nice tank 😍


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## Geoffrey Rea (6 Sep 2022)

Cheers @Thea B , also growing fond of this one.

Couple more stages to go yet, hopefully improve it further. Get the first week under our belt then can start adding details and further planting 😎


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## Ady34 (7 Sep 2022)

Looking great Geoff. A strong hardscape and concept.
Will be really nice to follow progress of this one and how you deal with all it throws at you.
Ady.


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## Geoffrey Rea (9 Sep 2022)

Promised a more pictorial journal this time, but… As an aside… Interesting observation of the Utricularia graminifolia.

Common thinking is the ammonia from rich soil at startup melts the plant. Tried planting the portions at different depths this time and this tank didn’t receive a dark start. At first glance this adds up:





However, for this to ring true you would expect the portions placed right down deep into the ammonia rich substrate to melt, but the reverse happens:





Exposed tips melt, buried section trucking along.  The state of the UG in the pots is equal, pointing towards the condition of the UG in those pots being sensitive to light/water column exposure immediately after planting. In other words, it’s better adapted to the substrate when it comes out of the Tropica labs.

Leaning towards the thinking now that ‘best practice’ with the UG 1-2-Grow pots is to completely bury the portions when planting. Meaning entirely, nothing visible at initial planting. Probably feels very counterintuitive to some.

Previously grown UG successfully in a species specific tank in this journal, Something… Something… Shallow Tank.





















Experience from that setup also lends weight to the idea that complete burial correlates with higher survival rate from initial planting. Estimate that the soil is not the problem folks think it is when using the 1-2-Grow pots, can’t speak for other methods of UG propagation.

Dug around and the buried portions in this tank look fine. Expect they’ll take their time, but they’ll show up once the UG’s food sources are more readily available.


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## Tim Harrison (9 Sep 2022)

An awesome scape with a subplot. 
Interested to see how this experiment turns out.


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## Geoffrey Rea (9 Sep 2022)

Tim Harrison said:


> An awesome scape with a subplot.
> Interested to see how this experiment turns out.



It’s the same for everything that’s gone in this time Tim. Have questions, this rescape offers the opportunity to pursue some answers.

Even the arcuata went from very soft remineralised RODI high tech, then in very hard tap no tech, then back in here <1 KH and 4-5 GH high tech in the last three months. At first trim, want to see the time line in the growth. Always something new to learn… love this hobby ❤️

Change of plan this time. Completed the first week of daily water changes, this is being decreased to every other day going forwards until there’s new feedback. The floaters showed a decrease in growth. Export job done.

Floaters 100% out:





Full surface agitation and light coverage restored:





Full nutrient availability back to the intended planting.


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## Geoffrey Rea (9 Sep 2022)

One week old and round 2 of planting:









See if we can achieve some greater depth and contrast through planting.


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## JoshP12 (11 Sep 2022)

Absolutely love your Journals Geoff -- always learn so much and packed full of information and experiments grounded in fun and curiousity. 

Appreciate your honesty in them as well. 

Can't wait to see this scape come together. 

Josh


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## Geoffrey Rea (15 Sep 2022)

Cheers @JoshP12 and always learning from the UKAPS community too! Looking forward to updates on your system bud 😎

A few quick amendments:



Geoffrey Rea said:


> the arcuata went from very soft remineralised RODI high tech, then in very hard tap no tech, then back in here <1 KH and 4-5 GH high tech in the last three months.



Yeah, one step too far for the arcuata. Turned to mush and evaporated, one adaptation too many.

Interesting in a broader trend that has been experienced over the years though; putting plants used to high tech into low tech is relatively hassle free, taking plants from a low tech and placing them in high tech is problematic with a lot of stems generally, but not all.



Geoffrey Rea said:


> For 200 litres of RODI:
> 
> 1.6g Calcium Chloride
> 8.0g Calcium Sulphate
> ...



Scrapped this remineralisation as did it with the last scape and it worked out fine, nothing worth repeating.

Changed to 90% RO and 10% Cambridgeshire tap to remineralise for something new. It’s also quicker, easier and cheaper… what’s not to love? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Tap water here for anyone who likes crunching numbers:









Also, RODI water is now just RO water coming out at 6ppm TDS all the way down from 490ppm. Pointless running DI section to knock it down to 0ppm if you’re going to remineralise with the source tap water.

In tank TDS is now roughly 120ppm. Not particularly interested in complicating things further than this. Tap water here is pretty comprehensive and has some of everything.

Tap report puts 10% tap mix into RO at Ca 11.1pm and Mg 0.83ppm. Supplementing Mg with a very accurate ‘dash’ of magnesium sulphate 😂 Can already hear those who love their expensive and relatively accurate scales screaming at this blasphemy but… meh 🫤


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## dw1305 (17 Sep 2022)

Hi all, 


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Tap report puts 10% tap mix into RO at Ca 11.1pm and Mg 0.83ppm. Supplementing Mg with a very accurate ‘dash’ of magnesium sulphate


I'm taking <"credit for this"> (as well as for the <"Duckweed Index">)


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Scrapped this remineralisation as did it with the last scape and it worked out fine, nothing worth repeating.
> 
> Changed to 90% RO and 10% Cambridgeshire tap to remineralise for something new. It’s also quicker, easier and cheaper… what’s not to love?


I honestly think that using your hard, alkaline tap water as your <"remineralising agent is a no brainer">.  You aren't going to use very much, so even if you have (justifiable) concerns about the nitrate (NO3-) and phosphate (PO4---) content of your tap water and don't want to use it the tank, you can still use a dash of tap water in RO (or rain water) just to add some hardness and alkainity. Dilution is your friend for everything else.

The only time it wouldn't work is if you want to <"decouple hardness (dGH) and alkalinity (dKH)">, because  the tap water will supply 1 : 1 dGH : dKH

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (17 Sep 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'm taking <"credit for this"> (as well as for the <"Duckweed Index">)



As you should Darrel 😎



dw1305 said:


> I honestly think that using your hard, alkaline tap water as your <"remineralising agent is a no brainer">.



Using the tap for remineralising definitely. Gave James’ remineralisation a whirl previously to see if there’s anything more worthwhile trying. Then, realised quickly that this was the wrong question.

Unfortunately stuck using RO rather than rain water as it hardly rains here. All water (product and waste) gets used though. More ethical in these times given the penchant for daily water changes during the first four weeks. Would argue the work upfront pays dividends in co2 enriched systems, but yeah. However, splash of tap in rainwater would be even easier.



dw1305 said:


> if you have (justifiable) concerns about the nitrate (NO3-) and phosphate (PO4---) content of your tap water and don't want to use it the tank, you can still use a dash of tap water in RO (or rain water) just to add some hardness and alkainity.



Nothing justifiable this time around. Unless restricting available water column nitrate for plant colouration and form, not worrying about this one. Anyone who has been around the block and chased plant forms knows it isn’t that simple anyway; higher light intensity (200 PAR+) for stimulus and response, time, heightened K and micro availability for plant function and adaptation compared with macro water column availability, minimal N water column input with high soil based reliability, low system loading, ample oxygen, proximity to co2 mist source during the photoperiod, distribution pattern and very low KH (1<). That and leaving large gaps between single stems. It’s fun whilst you’re chasing it, but a lot of effort for some colour.

This time… Pretty much an all out green tank so that’s out 😂  No fancy species with particular needs except UG. Middle ground will do.

To be fair, could just run hard tap with the rest of the chosen species and call it a day. Only running softer water for more efficient nutrient acquisition and efficiency with co2. Loaded soil with softened water also allows for a simple fert mix of potassium and micros alone for a considerable time, has a long shelf life, doesn’t suffer mould issues and nothing is at risk of precipitating out at those concentrations - top up the auto doser every three months. Simple and reliable 🤷🏻‍♂️

Less calcium rich water will theoretically preserve the CEC of the soil for longer, allowing for uptake from the soil rather than water column for majority of the planting across the tanks lifespan. Periodic root tabs. Get there’s so many other factors at play here and even more that may be out of any awareness but… happy to dance in the grey.



dw1305 said:


> The only time it wouldn't work is if you want to <"decouple hardness (dGH) and alkalinity (dKH)">, because the tap water will supply 1 : 1 dGH : dKH



Did this with the last setup running extremely low KH. Whilst a lot of folk are concerned with optimal/brilliant/perfection/glorious parameters for running a system, much more intrigued and curious about the range any given species will thrive in. Much more use when helping others make reliable plant species selections for their tanks.


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## Libba (17 Sep 2022)

When will we get some photographic updates on this? I'm sure there has been a lot of growth in the first couple of weeks with high lighting.


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## Geoffrey Rea (17 Sep 2022)

There’s not much particularly happening @Libba at two weeks old.

This was two days ago, took a few shots walking passed the tank. Blyxa is waking up:





Carpets are slow and steady. HC at the back doing its initial leggy routine before spreading outwards, Glosso mid-ground just settling in, Marsilea hirsuta and crenata mix in the foreground is jostling for space but finding it’s way:







Libba said:


> I'm sure there has been a lot of growth in the first couple of weeks with high lighting.



The shear amount of tannins being released will be dampening that light down some. Every morning the tank looks like an elephant has done a big giant pee in the tank 😆  Waiting for that to subside. There’s some additional bacterial film on the wood to keep clear, but that’s about it:





All pretty slow schedule. Low plant mass startups give longer grow in times, will be more interesting from one month onwards no doubt. Marine tank and garden have been stealing any spare time this month. This thing just needs to get on with itself and has been running like clockwork so far.


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## Libba (18 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> There’s not much particularly happening @Libba at two weeks old.
> 
> This was two days ago, took a few shots walking passed the tank. Blyxa is waking up:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update! I had a secret motive of wanting to know if your tanks go through an ugly phase like everyone else's.


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## Geoffrey Rea (18 Sep 2022)

Libba said:


> Thanks for the update! I had a secret motive of wanting to know if your tanks go through an ugly phase like everyone else's.



Just ask bud, nothing is 100% but that’s more about timing of introducing specific species.

A lot of ugly can be negated by providing ample surface agitation at night in the first month. The heightened gas exchange makes up for the lower  overall photosynthetic activity from lower plant mass during this time. The simple ‘month of daily water changes’ removes decay that would otherwise be an oxygen thief.

Some species will struggle regardless @Libba . Knew putting Bucephalandra sp. Serimbu Brown this early on would result in leaf melt:






As long as the rhizome is attached and you can use cherry shrimp to keep it clean in the interim, it will come back swinging. Can alternatively just add it a month or two after startup, but it can still suffer leaf melt if using the in-vitro cups. I always look for the cups with the largest rhizome, rather than many leaves when buying in-vitro Bucephalandra. Gives insurance, via nutrient stores in the rhizome, that the overall plant will make it.

Same with using Monte Carlo as an epiphyte early on. Larger portions on the wood are necessary as a certain amount will float off or not make it without soil access. You only need a coin size amount plugged into a hole on the wood to get it going though.

Tank overall is pretty clean:





Tannins and mould on the wood being the only ‘ugly’ at this stage, but that’s more just part of the process really.


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## Deano3 (21 Sep 2022)

Great update @Geoffrey Rea , like you say just ticking along nicely there, nice tip about buying buce, i am missing have a tank cant wait to get one set up 😔


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## Geoffrey Rea (22 Sep 2022)

Deano3 said:


> i am missing have a tank cant wait to get one set up 😔



Think of it the other way around, something to look forward to 😉


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## Hanuman (22 Sep 2022)

This is what we call an "in your face" type of journal and tank. Excellent. In fact yesterday I was thinking of doing the same thing for my next journal. Picture and nada mas. I see that my idea was not original 😂


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Knew putting Bucephalandra sp. Serimbu Brown this early on would result in leaf melt:


If you were here (or I was there) I would have sent you my unsold bucep bunches. I have taught them to resist ammonia and urea. Secret: I piss on them every night.


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## Geoffrey Rea (22 Sep 2022)

Hanuman said:


> Secret: I piss on them every night.







Treat ‘em mean… grow ‘em green 😂


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## Hanuman (22 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Treat ‘em mean… grow ‘em green 😂


Amen to that. 🙏


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## Sluwp (24 Sep 2022)

The hardscape is stunning. Good job !


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## Geoffrey Rea (26 Sep 2022)

Nearly over startup. Few days to go… 🥳

Tank in situ, planted and marine side by side:





Lifetime of fun in a 10ft run.


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## Carbondioxide (26 Sep 2022)

Absolutely fantastic thread! Really enjoyed scrolling through them. Nice to see your still using our regulator. What do you plan to add livestock wise?


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## Geoffrey Rea (26 Sep 2022)

Carbondioxide said:


> Nice to see your still using our regulator.



Yup, an older one from when you were based in Milton Keynes. Hasn’t skipped a beat, love it ❤️







Carbondioxide said:


> What do you plan to add livestock wise?



Green Neons from the last setup are now living in Tai Strietman’s 900 in Aquarium Gardens. Will miss them as been with us since 2017:





So left with White Cloud Mountain Minnows and Celestial Pearl Danio’s from the last setup to go in this one.





They seem to pair well and CPD’s are happy to swim amongst the WCMM’s, getting rid of that shyness CPD’s sometimes exhibit. Will bump up their numbers and stick with these two species probably.

As always, Yellow Sakura Shrimp going in. Colony started in 2016 and all started from a batch of six. Pretty much flooded Cambridgeshire with them now from giving them away 😂


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## Carbondioxide (27 Sep 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Yup, an older one from when you were based in Milton Keynes. Hasn’t skipped a beat, love it ❤️
> 
> View attachment 194919
> 
> ...


Yellow Sakura are  nice change form the reds and blues. I also think the CPD and WCMM do go well together having a similar colour palette. You may have just helped me decide on what shrimp I will be adding to my next setup.


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## Ady34 (3 Oct 2022)

Nice updates Geoff 👌🏻


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## Geoffrey Rea (12 Oct 2022)

Welcome to the beautiful world of mother%#€€$!#  c¥?!ing BA$¥^*€!!!

😡😤😤🤬🤬🤬👿👿🤬🤬🤬


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## Wookii (12 Oct 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Welcome to the beautiful world of mother%#€€$!#  c¥?!ing BA$¥^*€!!!
> 
> 😡😤😤🤬🤬🤬👿👿🤬🤬🤬
> 
> View attachment 195652



Please, not more biscuits?!


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## Geoffrey Rea (12 Oct 2022)

Wookii said:


> Please, not more biscuits?!



Thankfully not this time 😂

In an eternal hair algae Groundhog Day….





Organics leaching from the wood, hair algae growing from the wood, clear all the wood, more organics leaching from the wood, more hair algae coming from the wood…

Wake up, rinse and repeat…





Luckily the plants are going strong so can take a blackout, but not sure how long this process is going to take.


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## Tim Harrison (12 Oct 2022)

Massively frustrating. I've no doubt you'll win through, especially since the plants are doing okay.


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## Geoffrey Rea (13 Oct 2022)

Tim Harrison said:


> Massively frustrating. I've no doubt you'll win through, especially since the plants are doing okay.



There’s a reason ADA pull out large pre-soaked pieces of wood when scaping, freeing themselves of this saga.

The wood needs to do it’s thing. Even if everything else is on point this will continue to be a source of woe for a while longer until it has run its course. Stuff just needs to leach out until it’s processed out quicker than the output.

Never had to resort to it before, but will be dosing the tank with Salicylic acid after the blackout. Not able to deal with the source problem for a while, which simply requires time. But it should act as a dampener to the hair algae in the interim. The wild card will be when to water change without erasing the benefit, or, the issues of maintaining concentration in the water column. Could easily slip backwards.

Plants are full of win though so hoping to remedy the replication rate of the hair algae without any downside. The manual removal method is just purgatory.

Was hoping to naturally resolve the issue. Although, Salicylic acid is a plant hormone so maybe that counts under the same flag. Either way… Budgeting a month for a win.


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## Libba (13 Oct 2022)

API Algaefix (busan 77) is my secret weapon for scenarios like this.


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## Geoffrey Rea (13 Oct 2022)

Libba said:


> API Algaefix (busan 77) is my secret weapon for scenarios like this.



Not a fan unfortunately. Aware of applications for Polixetonium chloride in a few sectors. The issue is how indiscriminate it is as a sterilant. Akin to cutting off your head to rid yourself of a headache. Sure, it’ll solve that problem but may not be a good idea in the long run. No doubt it works satisfactorily for folks looking for instant results when the issue may be a tank ender, but nowhere near that level with this issue. It’s just irritating 🤷🏻‍♂️

Under a more holistic approach, not looking for eradication but naturally attainable balance. The source of the problem is leaching organics from wood, with hair algae only sprouting from the wood. Just takes time.

The reasoning for favourable use of Salicylic acid is breakdown into the water column also takes time. Slow and steady without creating additional issues whilst the system adapts. Meanwhile, the plants are taking over all the real estate.

Ultimately I’ve failed to get in rhythm with this tank, feel very disconnected with its needs right now. Last month was awful, personally, so tanks took a back seat. Will spend the next month working on this. See if we can dance once again.

💃🏻  🕺🏻


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## Hufsa (13 Oct 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Ultimately I’ve failed to get in rhythm with this tank, feel very disconnected with its needs right now. Last month was awful, personally, so tanks took a back seat. Will spend the next month working on this. See if we can dance once again.


Love your holistic approach to tank health, I think more people should look at it this way 
Instead of "why has algae attacked *me*", they could see it rather as valuable feedback from the overall system


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## dw1305 (13 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


Hufsa said:


> Love your holistic approach to tank health, I think more people should look at it this way
> Instead of "why has algae attacked *me*", they could see it rather as valuable feedback from the overall system





Geoffrey Rea said:


> The issue is how indiscriminate it is as a sterilant. Akin to cutting off your head to rid yourself of a headache. Sure, it’ll solve that problem but may not be a good idea in the long run. No doubt it works satisfactorily for folks looking for instant results when the issue may be a tank ender, but nowhere near that level with this issue. It’s just irritating 🤷🏻‍♂️
> 
> Under a more holistic approach, not looking for eradication but naturally attainable balance. The source of the problem is leaching organics from wood, with hair algae only sprouting from the wood. Just takes time.


That is it, no <"silver bullets">.

cheers Darrel


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## seedoubleyou (13 Oct 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> needs to leach out


This is where the reef keeping experience comes in.
Curing hardscape before use so it has chance to leach out.


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## KirstyF (13 Oct 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Last month was awful, personally, so tanks took a back seat. Will spend the next month working on this. See if we can dance once again.



Hope your awful is turning around buddy!🤞
As for the tank…..goes without saying, you’ll get that nailed. 😊


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## Libba (13 Oct 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Not a fan unfortunately. Aware of applications for Polixetonium chloride in a few sectors. The issue is how indiscriminate it is as a sterilant. Akin to cutting off your head to rid yourself of a headache.



I don't disagree. I'd just be too lazy to take the more effortful approach in the pre-livestock stage. Kudos to you for getting your hands wet, doing your blackouts etc.


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## Jayefc1 (13 Oct 2022)

Nice thread as usual buddy Hope your well and the family are all good will keep popping on to see how it's going I'm pretty sure you will turn it around maybe the biscuit treatment would have done some good lol


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## Geoffrey Rea (16 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> That is it, no <"silver bullets">.



Shhh 🤫

You’ll embolden the werewolves Darrel!



Libba said:


> I don't disagree. I'd just be too lazy to take the more effortful approach in the pre-livestock stage.



Absolutely @Libba in the early stages there’s less to lose. Timing is the missing component in the conversation.

Also reread the comments, didn’t mean to imply there’s difference in our approaches, apologies. It comes across like I’m saying these options are ‘wrong’ which they are not. Whether it be algaecides, acids or even ADA potions, they’re just tools. They all have their time and place.

Here’s the wood leaching prior to blackout, this is the algal growth back on it one photoperiod after clearing the wood:










Getting my @$$ whooped and may yet be deploying more options. But still understand that ultimately, until the wood has done it’s thing this will be a temporary feature of this setup. Enough to make you miss Iwagumi 😂



KirstyF said:


> Hope your awful is turning around buddy!🤞
> As for the tank…..goes without saying, you’ll get that nailed. 😊



Thank you @KirstyF ❤️

The clock has run short for some very special people in the last six months. Some problems just can’t be fixed unfortunately. Just got to keep on trucking.



Jayefc1 said:


> Nice thread as usual buddy Hope your well and the family are all good will keep popping on to see how it's going I'm pretty sure you will turn it around maybe the biscuit treatment would have done some good lol



Don’t Jay, just don’t…. Those Jammy Dodger biscuits will haunt my nightmares until my dying days 😂 Makes this current issue look like childsplay.

Trust you and yours are all well too buddy! Been a while since we’ve seen you, don’t be a stranger.


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## dw1305 (16 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


Geoffrey Rea said:


> You’ll embolden the werewolves Darrel!


I'm not worried, now we live in a <"post-truth world"> we don't need <"scientific evidence">, I'm sure that_ bleach,_ _hope and prayers, _which saw off COVID 19, (not those vaccines), will also do for werewolves  and anyway I don't need silver bullets, I have a <"proven"> <"solution for"> werewolves, and if that type of proof is good enough for <"ADA">, <"Seachem">, <"Biohome etc">? It is good enough for me.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Here’s the wood leaching prior to blackout, this is the algal growth back on it one photoperiod after clearing the wood:


It is difficult one,  looks like it might be <"_Spirogyra_">. Green Algae are always likely to be an issue where conditions are <"suitable for plant growth">, due to their <"similar photosystems and basic physiology">.

I've got tanks with a <"bit of green filamentous algae at the moment">, which is unusual for me. I'm putting it down to swapping over to <"Solufeed 2 : 1 : 4"> from <"Miracle- Gro">, partially because my Amazon Frogbit (_Limnobium laevigatum_) (below) is <"greener than normal"> and I haven't changed anything else.





I think the mechanism would be that the change has removed the <"constraint to plant growth"> resulting from <"whatever Liebig's limiting nutrient"> was.

cheers Darrel


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## John q (16 Oct 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Getting my @$$ whooped and may yet be deploying more options.


I wouldn't send the nuclear bombs in just yet, patience is as they say a virtue.


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## Geoffrey Rea (16 Oct 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I'm not worried, now we live in a <"post-truth world"> we don't need <"scientific evidence">, I'm sure that_ bleach,_ _hope and prayers, _which saw off COVID 19, (not those vaccines), will also do for werewolves and anyway I don't need silver bullets, I have a <"proven"> <"solution for"> werewolves, and if that type of proof is good enough for <"ADA">, <"Seachem">, <"Biohome etc">? It is good enough for me.



It’s all a bit hopeless isn’t it… 😔



dw1305 said:


> It is difficult one, looks like it might be <"_Spirogyra_">. Green Algae are always likely to be an issue where conditions are <"suitable for plant growth">, due to their <"similar photosystems and basic physiology">.



Microscope time to ID, suspect a couple of species at work, but will check. Can verify with folks who can make the distinctions if it isn’t obvious at first glance.

But the trend in the tank is the split pieces of wood used are capable of the most hassle. Problems are localised and persistent.



dw1305 said:


> I've got tanks with a <"bit of green filamentous algae at the moment">, which is unusual for me.



Have found that similar aged tanks within the same geographical area suffer the same issues at once. Beyond mere conjecture this includes this house, friends houses in the area and customers tanks that get maintenance locally. We’re into double figures tank wise… It’s a curiosity more than something to lean on, but interesting nonetheless.



dw1305 said:


> I think the mechanism would be that the change has removed the <"constraint to plant growth"> resulting from <"whatever Liebig's limiting nutrient"> was.



The thing that marine keeping brought forward was something as simple as shutting windows for a colder season can change everything. How many factors you can think of is a limit of imagination really, but not representative of everything at play. Dealing with customers, just like speaking with folks on the forum, have become acutely aware that we’re limited by how much truth we’re ‘allowed’ to access when diagnosing.

Not denying the importance of nutrients. However, highly skeptical that folks are doing as they say or say as they do dosing wise the majority of the time. Includes myself. Dare say it’s fun to think about though 😎

It’s a game of best guesses a lot of the time without capturing constant, valid and reliable data. This involves accepting more abductive reasoning to get to another change, rather than a solution. A kinder way of saying this is me trying my best, faults and all. Think the hobby is made up of a whole lot of this. But… we’re doing alright as a community.

Very fond of how everyone is doing their best to help each other.



John q said:


> I wouldn't send the nuclear bombs in just yet, patience is as they say a virtue.



Amano shrimp. They’re the nuclear option @John q . Don’t seem it but they’re devilishly good at making sure nothing stays where it originally was going about their activities 😂


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## dw1305 (17 Oct 2022)

Hi all,


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Microscope time to ID, suspect a couple of species at work, but will check.


_Spirogyra spp._ are easy ones to <"ID with a microscope">.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Not denying the importance of nutrients. However, highly skeptical that folks are doing as they say or say as they do dosing wise the majority of the time.


I'm definitely following @Oldguy 's  <"Guestimated Index">.


> ....... Yes, but when I write it all down for somebody else I do all the maths, when I'm dosing the fish tank myself, I use the "_sprinkle it into your hand, tip it in the tank_" method for larger amounts, and <"_lick your finger, stick it in the salt, wash it off in the tank_"> method for smaller amounts.......


Best guess yes, but I think you are under-selling yourself, your tanks have been absolutely amazing.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> It’s a game of best guesses a lot of the time without capturing constant, valid and reliable data. This involves accepting more abductive reasoning to get to another change, rather than a solution. A kinder way of saying this is me trying my best, faults and all. Think the hobby is made up of a whole lot of this. But… we’re doing alright as a community.





Geoffrey Rea said:


> The clock has run short for some very special people in the last six months.


I'm sorry to hear that, I lost both my parents in 2020 and I still haven't really come fully to terms with it.

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (1 Nov 2022)

Well folks…

After three decades of playing with, maintaining and thinking about planted tanks, finally met the setup that has broken any will power to keep going.

Every 72 hours we’re getting this consistently:





Plants grow fine. However, the three pieces of wood that are fuelling the algae growth will not  desist. All glued together with the rest of the scape no less and supporting the bank of substrate. No walking away from this one.

It is growing from the wood like some sort of green hairy phantom, eclipsing the rest of the tank, with a regularity only rivalled by an atomic clock. This has led to a setup that requires maintenance every three days at one and a half hours a pop per session on average. And just like clockwork, you’re having to bring it back from failure every three days over and over just to watch it fall again. Totally unacceptable and breaches the one hour per week per tank rule so it’s time to call it.

Had a chat with various folks to get a few opinions, just to see if calling it is premature. The length of time required to burn out the issue is as long as a piece of string from feedback. Not comfortable quitting, especially to a relatively simple opponent that is managed regularly in tanks that are personally maintained. But when the food source for the problem may potentially last years, gotta tap out. 

For whatever reason tanks are associated with songs in this house. This tank really has become a mirror for current circumstances and a bloody good lesson in defending against hubris.

For this one, at the end, Pink Floyd comes to mind:





dw1305 said:


> I still haven't really come fully to terms with it.



The end is inconceivable for ourselves, let alone  for those we love. My heart to yours Darrel, sorry for the delay replying to your sincere comment. Truth be told, simply didn’t know what to say these last few weeks, pain blinds us.

Now, getting all touchy feely, it’s our job to fill that void we feel. After all, despite our shared musings of our futility, struggling through existence over morning coffee, we’re it mate. Next generation give all of us purpose. Be well mate, we all need a Darrel.


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## castle (1 Nov 2022)

Unrelated, but related. I’ve been soaking some lumps of wood in the village swamp for the last year… 

They’re almost ready 😅


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## Witcher (2 Nov 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> It is growing from the wood like some sort of green hairy phantom, eclipsing the rest of the tank, with a regularity only rivalled by an atomic clock.


I like algae, seriously. Of course when it's not too much of them and they are not overtaking the whole picture.
I know from other threads you're plant keeper with quite rigoristic approach so wouldn't believe it's something about the water,  there is definitely an abundance of algae spores in the wood (plus very likely wood mass is being perfect condition for their growth regardless of what's in the water - maybe it was previously laying in the water containing all the necessary ferts and other rubbish algae needs and had soaked what algae need ).
It could be quite extreme solution and personally I wouldn't do that (I like algae etc. etc. ) but what about soaking the wood in the solution of citric acid or even better in light solution of glutaraldehyde? Then soak it again in the water (both citric acid and glut break down relatively quickly) and the put it back in the tank.



Geoffrey Rea said:


> Next generation give all of us purpose.


This.


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## Yugang (2 Nov 2022)

There could be upside from winning this battle with some pieces of wood and algae @Geoffrey Rea .

It is a beautifull scape, but obviously not an easy one to stabilise. If you would give advice on this forum, you would probably tell to reset it with more flow (disperse the stuff that the algae love, and that your plants may love too), regular water changes, perhaps more CO2 and especially more and fast growing plants? Then when plants have told algae who is boss, tank matured, gradually scale back to the original vision for this scape with less plants and the original plan?

So much to learn, a tank that is only two months old.


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## MichaelJ (2 Nov 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Every 72 hours we’re getting this consistently:
> 
> View attachment 197169


I tried to cultivate some of that a while ago! Perfect for shrimplets!




Geoffrey Rea said:


>



Likely the one of the best albums ever made!



Geoffrey Rea said:


> The end is inconceivable for ourselves, let alone  for those we love. My heart to yours Darrel, sorry for the delay replying to your sincere comment. Truth be told, simply didn’t know what to say these last few weeks, pain blinds us.
> 
> Now, getting all touchy feely, it’s our job to fill that void we feel. After all, despite our shared musings of our futility, struggling through existence over morning coffee, we’re it mate. Next generation give all of us purpose. Be well mate, we all need a Darrel.


🙏 🙏 🙏 Well said Geoffrey! 🙏 🙏 🙏


Cheers,
Michael


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## Garuf (2 Nov 2022)

800 amanos? Some wood grazing cats? As many floaters and rotala stems as you can tolerate looking at for a month or 3?

Seems a shame to give up on what is a 10/10 bit o wood work.  

The thing with it is, as you say, it’s as long as a piece of string, my last twigs scape took 4 months before the staghorn from the sugars in the wood passed. Other scapes it’s gone in a week for no rhyme or reason.


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## Courtneybst (2 Nov 2022)

I'm curious, where did you get the wood from @Geoffrey Rea ?


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## dw1305 (2 Nov 2022)

Hi all,


Geoffrey Rea said:


> After all, despite our shared musings of our futility, struggling through existence over morning coffee, we’re it mate. Next generation give all of us purpose. Be well mate, we all need a Darrel.


Thank-you. Having a wife, <"kids"> and a sibling (and <"coffee">) has been a great solace, I think if I'd be alone it would have been a lot more difficult without them.

It is just stupid things that trigger it now, football with my dad and politics with my mum.  Having said that if mum wasn't already dead I think the last couple of years <"probably would have finished her off">.


Geoffrey Rea said:


> Plants grow fine. However, the three pieces of wood that are fuelling the algae growth will not desist. All glued together with the rest of the scape no less and supporting the bank of substrate. No walking away from this one.





Witcher said:


> there is definitely an abundance of algae spores in the wood (plus very likely wood mass is being perfect condition for their growth regardless of what's in the water - maybe it was previously laying in the water containing all the necessary ferts and other rubbish algae needs and had soaked what algae need


I'd guess it will eventually subside and that @Witcher is right, what I don't know is the time scale.


Garuf said:


> 800 amanos? Some wood grazing cats? As many floaters and rotala stems as you can tolerate looking at for a month or 3?


Might be an option.

cheers Darrel


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## Geoffrey Rea (2 Nov 2022)

Thank you for the suggestions folks, but it really is curtains for this setup:





ADA Solar RGB’s, light arms and 1200 tank/cabinet are going up for sale.



Courtneybst said:


> I'm curious, where did you get the wood from @Geoffrey Rea ?



Think Dragonwood is supplied by WIO @Courtneybst


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## John q (2 Nov 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> ADA Solar RGB’s, light arms and 1200 tank/cabinet are going up for sale.


Wow, this set up really has broken you...

Although I suspect the Mr Rea we all know and love would have kicked its ar#e. Good thoughts mate, the wood will appear again once those pesky trees move on.


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## Garuf (2 Nov 2022)

I often find when a scape has run out of control the best thing is the resolution and relief when the next scape hits, even rescued scapes can still harbour that ghost of dissatisfaction. 

So what’s next then? 😈


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## Geoffrey Rea (2 Nov 2022)

John q said:


> Wow, this set up really has broken you...





Garuf said:


> I often find when a scape has run out of control



Not quite that drastic really, it wasn’t blasted at the end, just annoying:






Kind of like having something stuck between your teeth that you can’t get out… So took my hands to it:





And now the problem is much improved:





😂 😆 😝

Seriously though, the complete unknown timescale for that wood to stop leaching was the deal breaker. They were large and substantial enough bits of wood to raise alarm bells. The particular pieces of wood in question smelled stagnant when removed. Others just smelled like wet driftwood which was interesting. Lends weight to @Witcher ’s proposition:



Witcher said:


> I know from other threads you're plant keeper with quite rigoristic approach so wouldn't believe it's something about the water, there is definitely an abundance of algae spores in the wood (plus very likely wood mass is being perfect condition for their growth regardless of what's in the water - maybe it was previously laying in the water containing all the necessary ferts and other rubbish algae needs and had soaked what algae need ).


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## DeepMetropolis (2 Nov 2022)

Had lots of problems with similar algea on woods in my bedroom tank.. Lowering the lights making it a blackwater was the only remedy, really like the dimmed lights better in our room anyway. 
I guess its not your interest to do something like it. Sad to see your vision didn't worked the way you would. And i loved to see it evolve in a nice one. But why sell it all so drastically, are you going all out on marine now?


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## Geoffrey Rea (2 Nov 2022)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Had lots of problems with similar algea on woods in my bedroom tank.. Lowering the lights making it a blackwater was the only remedy, really like the dimmed lights better in our room anyway.



This may have been a longer term solution, but would have taken this tank away from the intended goal. So much so that it becomes something different entirely. Kudos to you for adapting your tank though @DeepMetropolis .

All things considered, it really is important to recognise a losing game sometimes and this one was like writing a blank cheque with your time. The one hour per tank per week rule is a good rule around here, helps manage unrealistic expectations. Sooner or later, you’ll let yourself and that tank down. Life will get in the way. 



DeepMetropolis said:


> But why sell it all so drastically, are you going all out on marine now?



Not at all, just feels like a change is in order. Been running some sort of 4ft freshwater setup for years @DeepMetropolis so it would be nice to change things up, see what else we can do 😎


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## Courtneybst (3 Nov 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> so it would be nice to change things up, see what else we can do


You heard it here first guys, a fish room is coming!


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## LondonAquascaper (3 Nov 2022)

Wow, interesting thread! I think the big takeaway for me is to start taking presoaking pretty seriously for any really large pieces of wood. I Knew that wood leached tannins etc, but the amount of organics being leached here too was off the charts.

Look forward to seeing whats next!


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## castle (3 Nov 2022)

Some (a lot) of amanos and


LondonAquascaper said:


> Wow, interesting thread! I think the big takeaway for me is to start taking presoaking pretty seriously for any really large pieces of wood. I Knew that wood leached tannins etc, but the amount of organics being leached here too was off the charts.
> 
> Look forward to seeing whats next!



It’s so important for big bits of wood, especially things you find yourself. Time it right with frogs spawning and tadpoles and they should do most of the hard work for you 😅


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## JoshP12 (4 Nov 2022)

Admirable choice @Geoffrey Rea.

Seems less of a breaking and more of a … ya I’m not doing this until this wood decided to stop being disgusting.

Doesn’t seem related to the plants at all … and it wasn’t on every piece of wood right?


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## seedoubleyou (4 Nov 2022)

Good luck in the next venture. Would love too see you try your hand at macro algae.


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## Conort2 (4 Nov 2022)

Fully understand why your breaking it down but gutted you’re actually selling the set up. I’m hoping onto bigger and better things?  Would love to see you do a biotope style tank. 

Cheers


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## MichaelJ (4 Nov 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> And now the problem is much improved:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Way better... while pretty boring unless a minimalist,  nothing is easier to maintain than an empty clean tank   ... cant wait to see where you are going with it next...

Cheers,
Michael


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## Geoffrey Rea (6 Nov 2022)

MichaelJ said:


> cant wait to see where you are going with it next...



Drum roll please…. 🥁 





😂 😆 😝 



Conort2 said:


> Fully understand why your breaking it down but gutted you’re actually selling the set up.



Don’t worry @Conort2 …

Have a sneaky suspicion you’ll see this setup on UKAPS again in another members capable hands 😉 



Conort2 said:


> Would love to see you do a biotope style tank.



It is on the hit list 😎 

But if going this way would be a Panta Rhei style biotope; built in rain cycle, species specific setup. Requires a lot more research and getting more specific. 

However, just dropped a setup due to time commitments. The wood issue just expedited the outcome. For now it’s the 1200 reef tank and the 45F shallow until circumstances change.



seedoubleyou said:


> Would love too see you try your hand at macro algae.



Think @Courtneybst has an updated, modern looking and stunning macro algae setup covered already, awesome setup. 



JoshP12 said:


> Admirable choice @Geoffrey Rea.
> 
> Seems less of a breaking and more of a … ya I’m not doing this until this wood decided to stop being disgusting.
> 
> Doesn’t seem related to the plants at all … and it wasn’t on every piece of wood right?



Just the three pieces @JoshP12 and plant growth was unaffected. One thing that wasn’t fine was the unspecified amount of time required each week to manage the setup, so no regrets. It’s useful to know when enough is enough.


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## Conort2 (6 Nov 2022)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> It is on the hit list 😎
> 
> But if going this way would be a Panta Rhei style biotope; built in rain cycle, species specific setup. Requires a lot more research and getting more specific.


Sounds great, probably something that initially needs a lot of planning and time to set up but once it’s done maintenance should be a lot less intensive than a high tech planted tank.


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