# My first ever aquarium. Juwel Rio 180l



## RolyMo

First Post..
Bit of background. As a 40th birthday present I have been given an aquarium. Ok more like I chose it with a limit in mind. Was shooting for a biOrb until I compared what I could get if I select a more traditional shaped aquarium

*First Night*
Managed to un-pack and build the cabinet and put the 180l tank onto it. Every looks glossy and nice. Had to carefully read how to set up the filter etc.

Then added Tropica Plant Growth Substrate x 2 bags to give approx 1cm layer on the bottom.
Added light colour tropical tank grade sand x 2 sacks to give a further 1-2cm layer onto of the substrate.
Carefully ran a hosepipe from the outside into the house to fill up the tank to the relevant level with tap water.
Added 90ml of Tetra Water Care to dechlorinate the water.

Stood back and admired the first step in my new hobby.


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## jamesb

Well done it looks good mate. Did you add a background or is that your wall?


Juwel rio 180
2 angels
2 Siamese flying foxes
3 yo yo loaches
4 Julii corys
10 guppys


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## RolyMo

*2nd Day*

Having left the filter on all night in the hope it might work some magic the next day I took a trip to my specialist Aquatics shop and purchased:-
1. A few rocks
2. Tropica Plants:-
2a 2 x Anubias barteri var. nana
2b 2 x Limnophila sessiliflora
2c 2 x Microsorum pteropus attached a pre-soaked piece of bogwood
2d 1 x Vallisneria sp. Gigantea
2e 1 x Hemianthus callitrichoides
3. Some reflectors for the kit T5 lights
4. The kids insisted on some glow in the dark plastic shells.

That afternoon I had my first attempt at planting the stuff in the tank, using no tweezers.

It is by no means a designer tank like most of the excellent tanks I have seen it the forum. But for my first attempt it looks interesting. I plan to put more plants in when funds allow.

I would like to see what happens to the Hemianthus callitrichoides if that carpets nicely.

Used cotton wool to wipe the air bubbles from inside the tank that formed whilst putting in the water first time.


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## RolyMo

jamesb said:
			
		

> Well done it looks good mate. Did you add a background or is that your wall?
> 
> 
> Juwel rio 180
> 2 angels
> 2 Siamese flying foxes
> 3 yo yo loaches
> 4 Julii corys
> 10 guppys




Hi Jamesb
Thanks for the comment
No it is just the wall, which is white, which probably adds to the light reflection. I wanted to try without a background. Not that I know what one with a background is really like. But by pure chance it seems to have added something.


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## RolyMo

*3 day*

In a panic about what to do with Co2 I quickly nipped out and bought a relatively cheap CO2 kit and a Co2 testing thing.  Did this as I knew it would take me a while to pluck the courage to build a FE based one. Somehow I feel I am missing something though. Hmm control of the Co2 is not perfect that would be it and no solenoid that might be what I am missing.

Trying to get 1 bubble a second, but proving a little tricky to keep the consistency.

Oh well at least I feel happier that the plants are getting their necessary dose, fingers crossed.
R


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## RolyMo

*Day 4*

Continuing to play with the CO2 controls and managed to keep it going for a few hours without it reducing to nothing.

Plants seem to be bubbling nicely now. Is that good?

Did a water change approx 35-50%. Used a bucket to get the water out carefully and then the hose to fill it back up with tap water. 

Added 35ml of the Tetra Aquasafe for the newly added water.

Wondering when I should add some shrimps. Tropica says immediately. Are they more robust than fish?


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## jamesb

You may be right about the light wall marginally increasing light. I have never thought of it. Just be careful of cables and pipes running behind it in future. What co2 kit did you buy? When I looked for kits for suitable for the 180 they were real expensive and the co2 canisters were quite pricey too. 


Juwel rio 180
2 angels
2 Siamese flying foxes
3 yo yo loaches
4 Julii corys
10 guppys


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## awtong

Did you fill the tank and add the aquasafe directly to it?  If so you need to add enough of a dose for the whole tank volume not just the water you added back due to dilution.

I thought I would check as yu said you were new to the hobby.  If you added enough to treat the whle tank please ignore me!!

Good luck on your adventure.

Andy


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## RolyMo

awtong said:
			
		

> Did you fill the tank and add the aquasafe directly to it?  If so you need to add enough of a dose for the whole tank volume not just the water you added back due to dilution.
> 
> I thought I would check as yu said you were new to the hobby.  If you added enough to treat the whle tank please ignore me!!
> 
> Good luck on your adventure.
> 
> Andy



EEEeeek Andy
Thanks for the tip. I shall quickly add the remainder when no one is looking. Yes I am completely new to this so all advice tips are very very welcome.


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## RolyMo

jamesb said:
			
		

> You may be right about the light wall marginally increasing light. I have never thought of it. Just be careful of cables and pipes running behind it in future. What co2 kit did you buy? When I looked for kits for suitable for the 180 they were real expensive and the co2 canisters were quite pricey too.
> 
> 
> Juwel rio 180
> 2 angels
> 2 Siamese flying foxes
> 3 yo yo loaches
> 4 Julii corys
> 10 guppys



James B - It was £55. I will dig out the box and check and come back to you on that one. I agree I was expecting close the £160 mark for a CO2 system. If I have the wrong size then I shall view it as a stop gap until I can afford a larger more cost effective rig.


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## awtong

RolyMo said:
			
		

> awtong said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you fill the tank and add the aquasafe directly to it?  If so you need to add enough of a dose for the whole tank volume not just the water you added back due to dilution.
> 
> I thought I would check as yu said you were new to the hobby.  If you added enough to treat the whle tank please ignore me!!
> 
> Good luck on your adventure.
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EEEeeek Andy
> Thanks for the tip. I shall quickly add the remainder when no one is looking. Yes I am completely new to this so all advice tips are very very welcome.
Click to expand...


If you add directly to the new water in buckets or containers then you can dose the exact amount for each volume so you would have been correct.  If you dose and fill direct to the tank then you need to dose the full tank volume.  This way you use more conditioner but you are covered for the removal of heavy metal ions, chlorine and chloramine.  It's a common mistake for new hobbyists.

Due to your good description I could work out what you had done.

Andy


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## RolyMo

Thanks Andy
Appreciate the differentiation. 
I emptied using a bucket but filled using a hose pipe. So dosing the whole tank is the option I should take. 
Thanks for the tip.


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## RolyMo

*Day 7*

At the advice of my local aquatic centre I turned up with my 2 girls, wife, a sample of water from my tank which was dutifully tested. They had 2 tests with various chemicals in which in my nervousness I did not ask. Was promptly asked if I had live plants, which I confirmed. Both test were yellow. Hmmmm.

I was explained that I would have to use the Tetra SafeStart and choose from a number of Platties to allow the tank cycle to kick in better.

We all promptly chose 1 fish each and digested the instructions from the helpful assistant and dashed back home.

Did an immediate 25% water change.
Added the appropriate full amount of AquaSafe
Trimmed what looked like dead val leaves.
Added the appropriate amount of SafeStart in whilst left the back with the fish rolled back and bobbing around in the tank adding water to the bag every 5-10mins. 
After about 30-45mins I transfer the fish from the bag into a net and then into the tank. Which promptly explored.

They appear to love the filter outlet pipe. Its like their very own static surf wave to play with. 

Have fed them with a couple of granules of fish food each, and let them get on with it. Despite the assistant saying they  are not shoaling fish. These 4 seem to like hanging out together.

*So questions at this stage.* 
1. Having spent a bit of money on the plants, are the Platties going to start to go for the plants? I have already seen them what looks to be touching the plants in the pic below.
2. Although I have a drop test thing in the tank, I feel I owe it the fish, plants and my investment to know what is going on with the water. So what tests do I need to get?

See the new family below.


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## jamesb

Right. Thanks to your Lfs you will need to do a fish in cycle which means as much water testing as possible. I recommend the api master kit and you will need this ASAP now. this includes a high and low range pH test, ammonia test, nitrite test, nitrate test. As soon as ammonia readings spike you will have to do water changes on a daily basis to minimise the amount of ammonia your fish are exposed to. At some point after this you will get a nitrite spike. Continue your water changes untill ammonia and nitrite readings are both 0. Make sure to treat all fresh water before adding to aquarium.


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## jamesb

Lovely looking fish though


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## RolyMo

Jamesb
Thought as much. I will hunt down the API kit and order immediately. 

So from now on the water I add to the tank needs to be from a bucket and treated with the Aquasafe? Not hosepipe into the tank to fill up and add Aquasafe directly to the tank?

I still owe you the name of the CO2 kit. 
R


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## jamesb

You can add it directly but you will have to use more water greater than if you just dose the buckets. If you want to we hose treat for full 180l before adding water


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## ceg4048

jamesb said:
			
		

> Right. Thanks to your Lfs you will need to do a fish in cycle which means as much water testing as possible.


Honestly, in my opinion, this is the worst advice a new hobbyist can possibly be given. After spending all that money why on Earth would you want to spend more money on useless test kits? Test kits can't really tell you anything about your water. What you need to do instead is to change the water in the tank as often as possible, to learn as much as you can about CO2 so that you do not gas your fish, and also to learn as much about keeping your plants healthy as possible. I agree though that it was foolish of the LFS to advise a novice to put fish in the tank so early. I would strongly suggest to remove the fish and to take them back to the LFS if at all possible. Wait about 6-8 weeks before even contemplating adding any fish to the tank.



			
				jamesb said:
			
		

> I recommend the api master kit and you will need this ASAP now. this includes a high and low range pH test, ammonia test, nitrite test, nitrate test.


Which is the worst of the worst of the worst by all accounts. It is not a good idea to get hooked on test kits. Better to get hooked on best practices.



			
				jamesb said:
			
		

> As soon as ammonia readings spike you will have to do water changes on a daily basis to minimise the amount of ammonia your fish are exposed to.


 There is no need to wait. Start doing water changes immediately. Having healthy plants in the tank will help to reduce the ammonia levels.At some point after this you will get a nitrite spike. 

Cheers,


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## jamesb

I'm sorry I feel that test kits have their uses at least whilst cycling and getting I know the behaviour of your fish. Yes they are inaccurate but aslong as they can show you that either ammonia or nitrite is present they have a use for the novice untill you find your feet. Of course good practice is the best thing to combat cycling but I know when I cycled my first tank having a test kit helped.


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## ceg4048

Hi,
    Well I totally understand why you feel the way that you do. Believe me, it's not my intent to bash you. I know exactly how you feel. I used to feel that way myself, until I realized the truth. In fact people find more problems than they solve using the kits. Problems that they can avoid simply by following some basic procedures.

As I continually try to point out, there are two major problems with hobby grade test kits. The first problem is a strong optical illusion and the second problem is that of misinterpretation of basic chemical principles. Because human beings are susceptible to illusions we fall prey to the test kit results, and because the wordd "chemistry" is a four letter word for most folks we assiduously avoid the discipline of studying and trying to understand the fundamental principles to enable us to properly interpret test kit readings.

In general, these kits are only able to register the existance of the chemical they are supposed to measure. They are not capable of returning accurate numbers, and they are not able to consistently register the value. That means they will return different values for the same concentration level, so you can never tell what the real number is. The worst kits of all are any kits that are supposed to measure any Nitrogen compound. That means NH3, NO2 and NO3 test kits are the least accurate and most inconsistent kits of all. PO4 test kits are about as bad. So there is the illusion. The numbers that you read are always in question. They can be hundreds or even thousands of percentage points in error. This means they are completely useless.

Secondly, inexperienced hobbyists really have no idea, for example what it means to have a PO4 of "XX" ppm. They usually get advice from the same lame LFS that told them it's OK to put fish in the tank the same day as it's set up. So the advice about what to do when a reading is high, is usually to buy some other product that is just as worthless as the test kits they were just sold.

Lets look at the alternative approach, which not only guarantees success, but also does not require the need to spend more money:

When you start a tank the reason the ammonia levels rise is because of the lack of bactria in the sediment and in the filter media. It takes 6-8 weeks for the population and diversity of life forms in the sediment to mature. It doesn't matter whether you use acceleration products or if you use nothing at all. No product can accellerate the maturity of the tank. Until such time as the population levels and the demographics of the sediment/filter microbes reach a certain level, the tank will always be susceptible to problems because there are not enough germs to do the job.

Just about every living thing excretes ammonia as a waste product. Ammonia is a byproduct of biological breakdown, so it's a certainty that NH3 will be dumped into the tank over time. We don't need a test kit to tell us that. In order to keep the concentration low, all we have to do is to perform regular and frequent massive water changes. This can be done daily or even 3X per week. The more water that is removed, the more NH3 is removed. So it's very easy to control the toxicity level in the tank. The factthat the OP already has fish in the tank makes it even more important to do frequent water changes and not wait for some test kit readings. The microbes in the sediment and in the filter bed will continue to grow and to multiply. After about 6 or 8 weeks the populations will stabilize and the tank can be considered to be mature. Fish can be added and the NH3 that they produce will be removed. This is automatic and is a guarantee.

If the tank has plants then this is even better. As long as the plants are healthy the plants will absorb the ammonia because this is a highly nutritious food source. So healthy plants remove the toxicity from the tank. You never need anything else. You never need to put ammonia or anything else in the tank. The higher your plant mass the more ammonia is removed. So we should be telling the OP to spend his money on more plants, NOT more useless test kits. Even plants that he may not intend to use in his aquascape can be used. Egeria,  Elode and other fast growing stem plants such as Hygrophyla and Ludwigia should be planted. Lots of them, because they will control the NH3.

Not only do plants control the NH3 but they also provide an even more important service, and that is they release Oxygen into the water column as well as into the sediment. People don't realize how important this function is. They seem to think that the bacteria only need NH3 but that is untrue. Bacteria require Oxygen, PO4, Iron, other trace elements as well as carbohydrates. Dosing the tank with nutrients provides the NPK and trace elements condusive to bacterial growth. The plants will also release sugars and other carbohydrates for the bacteria to feed on.

So if we focus on having as many plants as possible right from the start, and if we keep the discipline to change the water and to keep the tank clean, we will find that both plants and animals will be healthy and there will never be a need to use a test kit. If we wait the prescribed period before adding fauna to the tank we will assure ourselves that the tank will be in a much better position to accept and assimilate the new inhabitants.

Test kits do not help you to do this, they only provide an illusion that they do. These are the key points to a successful startup, and this is the discipline that will help to keep the fish alive.

Cheers,


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## jamesb

That is an awesome explanation ceg. I didn't feel bashed no hard feelings.I just explained what helped me when I started, it may not of been the best way but it got all my fish through the cycle and they are still here. I wish I could of read this then. I don't bother testing myself anymore I just keep up the maintenance and monitor the fish. I am not disagreeing with you in anyway when I say this but I do feel my kit helped me when I started but that's it. Your method is much better however I almost feel a ceg cycle sticky there


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## RolyMo

Ceg4048 and Jamesb
Thanks for the replies, they are very much appreciated. 

Firstly I am the newbie having never owned a single fish in my life. However the past 3 weeks (2 before and 1 after buying the tank) have absorbed a lot of info, tried to read the lines, see through the potential sales spin etc. But welcome all advice. 

Ceg4048 to the point explanation line up with most things I have read, and more funnily enough with the Tropica (yes of course they are trying to flog you plants, but it seems they want you to be successful) website and their advice.

The side affect of you saying get as many plants in as possible does not scare me. Apart from how fast I could spend the money doing so vs trying to cultivate and expand with what I initially bought.  

I have no problems with doing water changes if that is what it takes. But doesn't that remove some of the bacteria? Guess I am going to have to get more of the declorinator.

As for returning the fish? Don't get me wrong I questioned it myself when I was told after a week with the expensive friendly bacteria that fish could be added. I assumed technology had moved on and they had developed something that cuts down the time introduce hardy fish. Will have 2 very disappointed girls on my hands. Can I get through with adding more plants as suggested and higher frequency water changes and not return the fish or will they die a painful death? Which is also not wanted. 

Thank you
R


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## ceg4048

Good stuff guys. One of the things to remember is that there is no technology that can fix your germ population.  It's simply a game of numbers. The microorganisms (bacteria and archaea) that we are trying to cultivate increase their population by a process called "binary fission". This is a procedure where DNA is replicated and then the organism splits into two separate beings. So, one becomes two, two becomes four and so on and so on. The thing is that in order to fill the tank we need trillions and trillions of various species. No technology can accelerate this. In laboratories, microbes are cultivated in a petrie dish and then held in suspension. This requires time and nutrition. Your tank is just a very large petrie dish, that's all. All these products can do is to simply seed the tank with a relatively few specimens. But you can actually do a better job by seeding your sediment and filter with the mulm and detritus of another tank. In fact, in the very same LFS you could simply have asked them for some of their sediment mulm, and that will work just as well or better than any product you can buy...and it's free.



			
				RolyMo said:
			
		

> I have no problems with doing water changes if that is what it takes. But doesn't that remove some of the bacteria? Guess I am going to have to get more of the declorinator.


Life is full of compromises. Removing water does remove some bacteria, however, the germs we are trying to cultivate live in the sediment and in the filter media, which basically acts as if it were a sediment. That is where the vast majority of the microbes live. There is also a huge population living in a thin film of slime which coats every submerged surface in the tank...the tank walls, the rocks, and even the plants. This slime is called the "bio-film" so removing the water does really not affect these populations at all, because that is not where the work is being done. The water change removes the things that are toxic to the plants and animals. So this is a compromise that everyone should be willing to make. The more water changes you make in the tank the healthier the tank will be. Rivers, streams and lakes in natural systems all enjoy the benefit of having a huge volume of water, so that the toxic products of metabolism do not build up because they are diluted by the huge volume of water. We don't have that benefit of huge volumes, so we have to replace the water that becomes poisoned with food, excretions and so forth. One can never do too many or too large water changes in a CO2 injected tank.

As you suggest, it's entirely possible to keep the fish and to simply add a lot more plants while combining that with massive and frequent water changes. Avoid overfeeding, as many are wont to do. This will help you to reduce the ammonia population and, keeping the tank clean will also reduce the risk of incurring algal blooms, which we haven't even talked about, but is another bane of the new hobbyist.

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

*Day 9 - The arrival of a snail*

With renewed vigour after the informative discussion with Ceg4048, I did a 30% water change today. Adding the appropriate declorinator.

Fish still seem happy whizzing around miggling in the plants, swimming in formation and sometimes on their own.

The were fed today a few granules each of their fish food.

Lights were on for 10hrs and CO2 was on at approx 2 bubbles/sec.

I have noticed some slight brown areas on my anubis, and one of the Anubis flower stems seems to have gone a brown colour. When I touched it, it simple came away from the base. Both Abubis are attached to either a rock or a piece of bogwood. Wonder what the brown discolouration is. Will have to monitor.

Have noticed a snail in my tank. Very small 2-3mm wide. Crawling across the Anubis leaf. I thought snails were good for a tank being that they like eating algae I thought. But then I hear other people complaining that they have too many snails and they have an infestation problem.

I also took a cutting from my Limnophila sessiliflora and tried sticking it into the substrate to see what happens. This appears to be the one plant that is doing well. Interesting how is closes up at night and opens during the day.

I have also replanted my Hemianthus callitrichoides ''Cuba' as originally I just planted the whole lump together. Now I have separated the original clump and tried to get it firmly into the substrate under the sand in an effort to kick start some growth. This does not seem to be growing at all and in fact I can see some slight brown leaves. Hmmm

Also got my long tweesers and long curved scissors from Hong Kong from a seller on ebay. Pretty impressed. The price was cheap and delivery was 1 week. Excellent. But as predicted I cannot seem to use the tweeser as after I plant something I let go of the plant with the tweesers and floats to the surface. Brilliant.

Over and out.
R


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## Ady34

Hi RolyMo,
 sounds like your having fun and closely monitoring your tank, both of which are key to success   


			
				RolyMo said:
			
		

> Lights were on for 10hrs and CO2 was on at approx 2 bubbles/sec.
> 
> I have noticed some slight brown areas on my anubis, and one of the Anubis flower stems seems to have gone a brown colour. When I touched it, it simple came away from the base. Both Abubis are attached to either a rock or a piece of bogwood. Wonder what the brown discolouration is. Will have to monitor.
> 
> Have noticed a snail in my tank. Very small 2-3mm wide. Crawling across the Anubis leaf. I thought snails were good for a tank being that they like eating algae I thought. But then I hear other people complaining that they have too many snails and they have an infestation problem.
> 
> I also took a cutting from my Limnophila sessiliflora and tried sticking it into the substrate to see what happens. This appears to be the one plant that is doing well. Interesting how is closes up at night and opens during the day.
> 
> I have also replanted my Hemianthus callitrichoides ''Cuba' as originally I just planted the whole lump together. Now I have separated the original clump and tried to get it firmly into the substrate under the sand in an effort to kick start some growth. This does not seem to be growing at all and in fact I can see some slight brown leaves. Hmmm


I would be inclined to reduce your photoperiod from 10hrs down to 6 or 7 initially aiming for an 8 hr lighting period later down the line. Its important to get c02 correct in relation to your lighting and longer periods with high light intensity lead to more chance of algae. Use a drop checker with 4dkh water and a reagent to give you an idea of the levels of c02. Your aiming for around 30ppm which visually displays as a lime green colour in the drop checker (this is a great thread on c02 and drop checkers: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=467). Increase c02 very slowly and be prepared to reduce at the first sign of fish distress (the best time to do it is over a weekend..if you dont work weekends, so you can closely monitor throughout the injection period).
Brown algae is common in new unestablished set ups and anubias in particular seem to attract it. The failing leaf/flower may well be due to transition or simply deterioration of an old flower stem. 
Snails can be controlled and its down to personal preferance really whether you allow them or not....although youll find yourself chasing a never ending thread if you try to eradicate them as they seem to crop up whatever you do    A photo will help to identify the little critter and ensure its not going to be too invasive, but it will most likely be a ramshorn which are quite nice to have .
Trying out cuttings and replanting is a great way of learning about how your plants grow and where best so    for trying this out.
As for the Hemianthus, as with most carpeting plant species it is c02 hungry and will need excellent levels which are distributed well to the plant. Browning leaves are a sign of melt which again could be transition, but may indicate a need for greater c02 levels. It could of course also be the same brown algae you described on your anubias and should pass when the tank matures...reducing your photoperiod will also help.


			
				RolyMo said:
			
		

> Also got my long tweesers and long curved scissors from Hong Kong from a seller on ebay. Pretty impressed. The price was cheap and delivery was 1 week. Excellent. But as predicted I cannot seem to use the tweeser as after I plant something I let go of the plant with the tweesers and floats to the surface. Brilliant.
> 
> Over and out.
> R


  , this never changes, but practice helps a little...i still find planting infuriating.
Sounds like your doing the right things, listening to advice and enjoying the whole experience. A journal is a great way of documenting your progress and helps others as well as yourself.
Good luck.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## RolyMo

*Day 11 - Water change but notice the drop test is yellowish*

Day 11.
Have been away on business and my wife and the girls have been looking after the fish, turning on and off the lights feeding the fish.

So tonight I change approximately 40% of the water. Add the 90mls of the Aquasafe as per the tank size of 180l.

Wife things the fish are hungry. They were fed yesterday but she has noticed them touching the plants with their mouths. These are Platties by the way. On closer examination they appear to be kissing the the plants, so I am guessing they are sucking up any particles or algae. However she decided she would feed the fish, even though the shop said every other day.

The snail is bigger and seems to be doing circuits of the tank now rather than just chilling on one plant. Once a little bigger I will take a photo and post for identification.

Drop tester has changed colour as is more yellowy than green. So I am hoping the water change will settle it down over the next couple of days.

Also took some more cuttings and planted them back into the substrate.

Questions:-
1. How often should I feed Platties in a new tank
2. My Vals seem to still be a little brown on some leaves however the runners are creating new clumps which are sprouting new plants which are growing brownish green. Is that normal.

Cheers and goodnight
R


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## RolyMo

*Day 13 - Another Water Change and a slug*

Fish seem to be enjoying the tank and are being fed every other day. 

Have found another snail in the tank bringing up the snail population to 2. When the first one is a bit bigger I will post a photo for identification.

Changed about 40% of the water. Added the appropriate amount of Aquasafe liquid into the freshly filled tank.

As I was closing everything up I noticed a what looked like a tawny coloured slug on one of my plants. Immediate reaction WTF. So I got my aqua tweezers and hoiked the little critter out. Grrrr. How the hell did that get in. Perhaps it was the bucket I use for getting the water out of the tank for the water changes.

Also changed the white pad in the Juwel filter a weekly task. Interesting brown colour. 

Started to notice some of the rocks have started to get a bit of a green coating. Should I be getting them out and brushing with a toothbrush?

Onwards.
R


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## RolyMo

*Algae Issues?*

So coming up to the 4 week anniversary in a few days.
Fish are still alive.
Found a leak in the CO2 valve which made me go through a .5kg can in 2 weeks. Have a new 1.5kg now connected.
Algae
Hmmm

Are these roots of the Microsorum?






This seems to be on my Anubis 





What the hell is that mutation under my Microsorum pteropus?





The brown stuff on the rock seems to come back very quickly after a bit of toothbrush action





The brown stuff on the wood is that the same as on the rocks? Can I scrub it, leave it, employ some cherry shrimp?





What are the white things on the glass?





Hmmm


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## Ady34

Hi,
brown algae is diatoms, usual in new set ups and should go when the system matures. Reduced lighting will help along with good c02 and resultant plant health.
As for the microsorum, they are new plantlets forming on the leaves. Id advise pulling them off to encourage larger leaf development from the rhizome.
Looks like snail eggs on the glass.
Cheerio,
Ady.


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## RolyMo

Ady
Really appreciate that. Was starting to get concerned. But feel much more at ease. 

I will cut the lights down to the appropriate time as you suggested. 

Thanks you kindly
R


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## RolyMo

*Day 29 - Water Test*

Not posted in my journal for a while. Wanted to watch what happens in the tank. Defo got the bug, checking everyday. Experimenting with the cuttings and position. Perhaps I should have read the design book first.

Anyway Sunday saw us nip to the LFS and try and get some additional Platties for the 4 that are in the tank as we have a slight problem with one of the fish seems to be not part of the group and tends to hide at one end of the tank, under the filter, hanging by the filter intake almost being sucked in. Anyway have seen some small bullying every so often. So hence the thought to get a few more to make the shoal a bit more even.

Took the water sample down to the LFS and got told that it appears to be a small amount of nitrate in the tank still, so no fish   . Decided to get some more Tropica plants. Some Eleocharis and a Ludwigia repens 'Ruben'. Got home and split up the two pots of Eleocharis into 6 clumps each pot and planted into the foreground. Planted the Ludwigia in the mid ground and let the tank settle down over 12 hours. 

The tank is now looking nicely planted. Feel I should get some big branchy type wood as a right to left attraction.

R


----------



## RolyMo

*Day 30: Got some more Tropica plants*

Could not resist on the way home from dropping the family off to the hovercraft. I popped into Pets at home. Oh boy what an experience that was.

So I have scoped out my local PAH as it is significantly closer to my home than my fave LFS. 

Hmmm where can I start. They have Tropica plants. Cool. Are the looked after? No sure. Each of the cascading tanks appears fairly murky. The plants have brown tinge and there was certainly a surface scum onto of the water. In fact went to 2 PAH stores and the first one I swear had green fluffy algae growing off and away from some of the plants in one tank. Eeeek.

An assistant appeared and asked if she could help. Nice. Asked her (as a test) as to what the Easy, Medium, Hard meant on the plants and asked if it was to do with the CO2 and lighting. She looked at me blankly and said she had no idea and thought it was about ease of looking after it. She knew no more than that. When I pointed a certain types she would state that plant was a nice plant and pretty i.e. programmed to say my choices a re a good choice. <yawn>

Asked her to come back to me in a few mins. Decided that if I bought the plants I would choose the best ones and wash delicately and thoroughly to get rid of any of the crap that was in the shops water. The girl got a bag and fairly carefully put the plant in with a scoop of water and handed me the bag. Not inflated or tied. Not great.

In fact I'm glad I rescued the poor plants from the shop and gave them a new home. Anyway the purchases were:-
Alternanthera reineckii 'Pink' (roseafolia) and a Crypocoryne beckettii "petchii" which look quite cute and small. 

They have been washed and planted. Again disturbing the substrate and making it temporarily cloudy. Also whats annoying is that when I uproot some of the other plants it brings up the Tropica substrate above the sand. Might have to get some more sand to get a thicker layer.

Cheers
R


----------



## Ady34

*Re: Day 29 - Water Test*



			
				RolyMo said:
			
		

> Took the water sample down to the LFS and got told that it appears to be a small amount of nitrate in the tank still, so no fish   .


Hi,
Nitrates in a planted tank are in fact a good thing as they feed the plants....are you dosing any fertilisers into the tank?, i cant find any info in your journal (but may have missed it). The only reason i ask is that some fertilisers have Nitrates, Phosphates and Potassium (NPK) referred to as Macro Fertilisers, in them which intentionally raises these levels in the c02 injected tank to feed the greater hunger of the plants. Unfortunately by getting your water tested at your LFS who, no disrespect to them, will be unlikely to understand the way a planted tank functions and will therefore advise no fish with nitrate readings above a certain level (from may i add, test kits that are notoriuosly inaccurate....but thats another story). Its the nitrites and ammonia that you need to be concerned about as these are more harmful to fish. Poor maintenance or adding too much bio load (fish) at once can cause spikes in ammonia and nitrites so are best avoided by not adding too many fish at once, not overstocking and with frequent water changes, maticulous filter maintenance and good overall tank husbandry....which im sure your keeping on top of   
You will normally have some nitrate present in a tank even without intentionally adding it in fertilisers as it is a by-product of the nitrogen cycle and the least harmful form. If you are not dosing any fertilisers i would suggest starting a dosing regime, probably the simplest way (but not the cheapest) is to purchase a pre prepared all in one fertiliser such as tropica, or one available from one of the forum sponsors who will be happy to help you out with advice    Just ask them or on here if you need any further help   
Cheerio,
Ady.


----------



## RolyMo

Hi Ady
Yes I omitted to add that part to my journal earlier. I have for the last week been adding a half dose/day of Tropica Premium Fertiliser. So a press of the pump roughly every day.

I guess leave for a couple more weeks before having another attempt at getting some fish or shrimp. Keen to get the clean up crew in there, but get mixed messages about how sensitive Shrimp can be. Turn CO2 off before adding the shrimp and keep off for a day?

Interestingly when I was at the local PAH store I asked if they had shrimp at which the assistant was pleased to be able to answer that question by pointing out that "Oh yes in this tank, there's one right now... errm.... eating the dead Plattie.... hmm, we will get that out later" and there is another shrimp over...... there..... oh its dead".  

Don't worry I won't be buying any fish from that store. Unbelievable.

R


----------



## leemonk

Hi RolyMo,

A word of warning... check out your lights and see how powerfull they are.

I have the same tank as you and I have two T5 45watt HiLite, which given I am going for lowtech is way way to much light.

If you are dosing and using CO2 then it may be fine, but if not, you find yourself with a few problems down the line.

Regards


----------



## RolyMo

Hi Leemonk
Thanks for the pointer. 

As you say you get 2 x 45w T5 lights in the Juwel Rio 180l kit. I bought some reflectors which I believe give you 50% more light down into the tank so that's 135w in to total. Not enough for 1w/litre, which I am not sure how I achieve without changing the kit light setup. 

Why no CO2 for you?

There are mainly Tropica Easy with a couple of Tropica Medium plants in the tank. 

Have just upped the lights to 8hrs per day with CO2 injection of 1 bubble/2 sec approx. during that period and 1hr of CO2 before lights on. 

Algae on the glass seems to be dissapating. Still have brown algae on some of the plants and rocks.
Snail population seems to have increased to 6 and I do see the snails and the Platties having a go at the eating the algae off the plants.

Plants seem to be growing healthly.
Cheers
R


----------



## leemonk

I might be wrong, but I think watts is measured per gallon, not per litre.... or at least the standard measurement is per gallon.

Thus I would think that you have 40 gallons. Therefore you have 135w / 40 = 3.4 watts per gallon. Which, from what I gather is a fair amount.

Of course, I am a million miles away from being an expert, and am happy to be corrected.


----------



## Alastair

Hi, 
The 50% more lighting from the reflectors doesn't up the wattage to 135, you still have 2 x 45 watts it just means more of the light is reflected down into the tank. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks Alastair.
Need to think about boosting the lights then!   
Cheers
R


----------



## RolyMo

*Day 31 - Concerns on amount of Sand*

After yesterdays plant rearrangement and pruning the tank has settled down and is clear once more. Revealing a little colony of snails helping with the clean up.

However its clear that after uprooting some of the plants granules of the Tropica substrate are littered on the sand. Checked the Tropica website and they state 3-4cm of gravel on top. Hmm will I have at best 1-2cm of sand on top. So do I need to get more sand. Can I put additional sand into an already planted tank? Apart from covering the carpeting type plants at the front. Plus I imagine I need to clean the sand as normal and turn off the filter when carefully shovelling it in.

See pics below.


----------



## Ady34

RolyMo said:
			
		

> Hi Ady
> Yes I omitted to add that part to my journal earlier. I have for the last week been adding a half dose/day of Tropica Premium Fertiliser. So a press of the pump roughly every day.
> 
> I guess leave for a couple more weeks before having another attempt at getting some fish or shrimp. Keen to get the clean up crew in there, but get mixed messages about how sensitive Shrimp can be. Turn CO2 off before adding the shrimp and keep off for a day?
> R


Hi again,
good to hear your now adding water column ferts, id also be inclined to get the tropica specialised plant food also which has the macro nutrients too as these are important in a high energy tank, you could start by adding the premium one day and the specialised the next etc etc, however long term id be aiming for only using the specialised as this contains everything your plants will need and you can up your dosing accordingly as plant mass increases etc.
As for the shrimp, they are sensitive to water chemistry changes and c02, so its definitely best to turn off the c02 on the day of introduction and drip acclimate them over the course of 3-4 hours. Heres a link to my recent drip acclimatising rig cobbled together but did the trick: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=21455&start=150



			
				RolyMo said:
			
		

> Thanks Alastair.
> Need to think about boosting the lights then!
> Cheers
> R


You certainly dont need more light, what you have is more than enough and as already suggested the general rule used is watts per gallon (WPG), not watts per litre, and 2 wpg of t5 lighting is in most cases enough to grow any plant. Try to focus more on optimising c02 . C02 9 times out of 10 is the limiting factor to plant health as people tend to over light and under provide for c02. Light drives the plants hunger for both ferts and c02, so more light = more c02 and ferts are needed.
Hope this helps, and by the way, your plants seem to be coming along very nicely indeed  
Cheerio,
Ady


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ady
As this is my first time with a planted tank let alone fish there is so much to learn and keep an eye on. But I believe if I have a healthy tank of plants and maintenance regieme it should reap rewards no end.

Was keen to get plants growing in the tank see what happens to them and watch how they grow and how they should be pruned before trying the more artistic Aquascaping stuff. Small steps etc....

The lighting news is a relief. Having forked out for the starter tank and the LFS telling me that it should keep me going for a while, the last thing I wanted to do was buy new lights etc. And your comment about more light = more CO2 and ferts is of course common sense. 

Appreciate the tips and pointers they are very much welcomed.
Thank you
R


----------



## RolyMo

*Week 6 - Confidence is building*

Its funny how I spend a lot of time thinking about my tank and wondering what is going on with the plants and the fish. Watching for small changes that give clues as to what is going on.

I have also learned a lot with the help of people on this forum to get to where I am with the tank. I am not a mega aquascapist, I am not a gardener. So having my first planted tank and indeed my first time with fish, I feel pretty good that 6 weeks in, things appear to be going ok.

One observation I find funny is that I keep reading on the forum is if something is wrong everyone asks what is the tank doing i.e. what is the levels of chemicals in the water column. But having read the previous posts from ceg4048 saying that kits give you an illusion of what is going on, how do you answer those questions honestly and with precision?

Ceg4048 will be pleased to know I have not bought a kit. I have watched the tank every day and watched what is going on with the plants. I did not take the fish back as suggested, rather I decided that I wanted to watch what happens with the whole environment and see what the fish did. But at the same time I promised to do very regular and largish up to 40-50% water changes to try and minimise the impact to the fish. So far, so good.

The plants have stayed alive (this is good for me). Some of grown really fast and had to be trimmed back, others have grown slowly, and others have eventually started to do their carpeting thing. I am watching to see what the impact of the Tropica Premium Ferts does. I have also managed to balance out and not have too much algae at all. All the plants seem to be pearling and releasing a constant stream of oxygen(?) into the water column. So I am guessing the CO2 at approx 2-3 bubbles/sec and 6-8hrs of light is working ok.

*More Fauna*
This extended weekend saw me do 2 experiments. 
1. Added 10 Amano shrimp from the Aquatic Design Centre (London), thought they would look good, but also to help with cleaning up. These were introduced using a modified drip method over a 2hr period and CO2 was turned off 15hrs beforehand. All good, and they immediately started to do their clean up act very proficiently. Which surprised me. CO2 not added for 36hr period. Was concerned too many too soon.
2. I bought 6 Diamond Head Neon Tetra's a couple of days later. Again these were slowly introduced over a 90min period gradually being acclimatised to the water before being added to the tank. After a 35% water change. CO2 off for 24hrs.

Had a slight panic that I would be adding too much over these 3 days, but the shrimp have not displayed any abnormal behaviour, gone white or turned over dead. The Diamond head neon tetras also seem very happy doing their thing. 

Today I have monitored them all carefully and everything is good. Which indicates to me that levels are good? Frustrating not know. Trial and error I guess. 

How the hell do I feed them all? i.e. the cheeky Platy's would eat everything if they could. Had to stick my hand in to try and keep the Paty's away from the food dropped in for the Tetra's. Guessing the shrimp are cool with the detritus and leftovers.

Snail explosion. Crap I now have 20 odd little snails, some fornicating infront of my 2 your girls. At what point would you get some snail assassins?
R
Will provide photos when I get the big camera out as the tetra's move too fast for the phone camera.
R


----------



## ceg4048

RolyMo said:
			
		

> One observation I find funny is that I keep reading on the forum is if something is wrong everyone asks what is the tank doing i.e. what is the levels of chemicals in the water column. But having read the previous posts from ceg4048 saying that kits give you an illusion of what is going on, how do you answer those questions honestly and with precision?


Hi,
   Glad things are working out for you so far. What you have to consider is that the people who are asking about the level of chemicals are under the same illusion as the person who posted the question. There is neither precision nor honesty in the test kit, and so it's better not to hypnotize yourself into thinking that they can tell you anything. After you learn a bit more about plants, water and fish, and are more grounded in the chemical forces at work, then you may, if you wish, play with the kits just for entertainment value, but by then you will be immune to their hypnotic effect, and you will be able to assess for yourself their powers of illusion without being sucked in by those powers. The test kit which are the least inaccurate are those that measure parameters such as pH, KH (alkalinity) and GH (General Hardness). These numbers are nice to know, and can be used to troubleshoot or to indicate basic values. A dropchecker, for example, is a pH test kit and it helps us to determine the basic levels of CO2 in the water column.

For now, I reckon you'd be well served by reading other posts and seeing photos of what problems look like and what is done to prevent or resolve issues that may arise. Understanding cause and effect is much more important than measuring chemicals. Have a look for example at JamesC's Algae Guide and study the information there. Ask questions if anything is unclear.



			
				RolyMo said:
			
		

> Ceg4048 will be pleased to know I have not bought a kit. I have watched the tank every day and watched what is going on with the plants. I did not take the fish back as suggested, rather I decided that I wanted to watch what happens with the whole environment and see what the fish did. But at the same time I promised to do very regular and largish up to 40-50% water changes to try and minimise the impact to the fish. So far, so good.


Well as far as I can see from what you've reported, you've confirmed the redundancy of Nitrogen test kits and have avoided a dependency on them. By proactively replacing large volumes of water you are cleaning the tank and avoiding a buildup of toxic Nitrogen products as well as cleaning the tank of organic waste that causes toxic Nitrogen product buildup. If you're fixing the cause of toxicity before it happens then there is no need to test for it.

Have a look at page 4 of the thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&start=30 which gives you a clue of what to look for in your fish which would indicate Nitrogen toxicity. If you observe this behavior then you know that there is a toxic buildup of nitrogen products in the water. You avoid the panic typically caused by reading false numbers on a test kit. Again, proactively performing large and frequent water changes avoids all of these troubles so that it would require something catastrophic to occur in the tank in order to produce this level of toxicity.

So the idea is to read more and to get smart so that you can recognize the beginning of problems  instead of becoming dependent on testing.

Some other threads you might find useful:
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=4869
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17286
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16092
http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14774


Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Ceg4048
Thanks I was so engrossed in all the info I forgot to say thanks for the advice. Especially all in one place.
Cheers
R


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## RolyMo

*Day 56 - Increased Ferts and added Assassin Snails*

Very pleased.

Nothing has died. Neither Fauna or Flora which I am pleased about.

The one fish that appears to hang out away from the other fish at either the top of the tank next to the filter inlet or at the bottom under the filter I wonder is he is blind as I drop food in front and he clearly does not see it. Very weird.

Anyway introduced and increased the Tropica Specialist Fertiliser as well as the Premium.

Also introduced 4 Assassin snails to the tank as the what looks like pond snails do seem to and exploded a bit too much. However they have all buried themselves bar one, which I understand is normal behaviour.

Will be doing a 40-50% water change today as well as the usual white sponge replacement and a blue sponge (first time). Will also be trimming back some of the plants and maybe doing some cuttings. A busy evening it seems.

Still have the bug and still watch the tank in awe. Looking from the far side of the room the tank looks like a lit up a piece of scenic photographic art. Of course not aquascaped to perfection like most examples I see on the forum. But none the less it does stimulate the brain somewhat.


----------



## ceg4048

Hi,
    You need to reduce your feeding. That might be why you have a snail problem. Excess food causes pollution whether it is eaten or not. If a fish does not eat well and if it is behaving as you describe then you should suspect either a pathogen or an issue with CO2 or water quality. Does the fish gasp at the surface, or does it's gill movement see more rapid? If so this could be a CO2 issue for that particular fish. How does it respond to a water change? Is the behavior the same at night when the lights and CO2 are off? Look for lesions or spots on the skin, near the gills or tail/fins. How does the fish swim? Snakelike or regularly? Normally, only solitary type fish will stay by themselves. Schooling fish that remain on their own are typically in some kind of discomfort.

You should also try to feed live foods such as brine shrimp, daphnia and even mosquito larvae which you can cultivate outside in a corner bucket. You can even get into microworm or whiteworm cultures which are interesting side hobbies on their own.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks Ceg4048
I was coming to the conclusion to reduce the food a little (currently once every other day and approx 15 granules). I thought I was quite sparing. Using Tetra Prima granules to feed the fish.

The fish with the solitary behaviour in question is a Platy. I have looked for some of the things you have suggested for a while.

No gasping, No lesions or spots, same behaviour before and after a water change. Did a 40% water change last night.

Will occasionally catch him swimming around, but he does seem very separated from the other 3 platy's. 

The behaviour has been going on since after a couple of days of getting the platy's. So good 4 weeks at least now. But he is still alive.

The behaviour is to hang either at the surface (not gasping) near the filter inlet (almost looks like he is going to be sucked in) staying very still albeit slight stabilising fin movement. Cannot see the gills breathing much. Fins all appear to work and he can swim very well when he does. When coming close to one particular Platy the other does do a bump and scare him off. So I am curious if there is a bullying thing going on? The other 3 a school together fine. 

Even the Diamond Head Neon Tetra's seem to school the majority of the time, which someone told me in the LFS they only really school when you have lots.

The other platy's, Tetra's and shrimp are all fine and behaving normally and so not exhibit any CO2 issues from my very limited knowledge.

Having observed the fish and reduced and as an experiment stopped CO2 there is not difference in behaviour in the lone Platy. CO2 is back on. The experiment was done a week ago for 1-2 days.

I shall go get some brine shrimp as I think feed my daughters Sea Monkeys to the fish is not going to go down well. I will read up on the worm stuff. Would you alternate between the foods then?


----------



## nry

You may well not need to replace the sponges, just squeeze them out I old tank water then put them back in - the only one you may want to actually change is any fine mesh/wool type pad, as this is generally used for fine filtering and the other sponges will handle the biological filtration.

Changing sponges is usually something advised by filter makers who wish to milk a little more money from owners


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks NRY
That does not surprise me.


----------



## ceg4048

Yeah, I second nry's assessment. There is no need to buy more sponges if they are still intact. Just wash them. Remember that there are nitrifying bacteria in the sponges so every time you replace them it takes another 4-6 weeks to build bacterial population in the new sponge.

There are different feeding regimens. I like to feed predominantly live food and then only occasionally supplement dry food. The moving prey stimulates fish that are reluctant to feed and is healthier as long as it is kept clean. Cost is higher though, so you feed less but get better bang for buck. Also look into frozen foods like bloodworms and so forth, as well as freeze dried foods like tubifex. Get a good variety and you'll find that the fish are healthier and will be more willing to breed (not that  this is a problem for most livebearers like platies and guppies).

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

*First road bump*

Sunday just gone saw me purchase some brine shrimp to mix up the feeding regime. I also bought 6 Cardinal Tetra's.

Water change was done on Friday.

Added the Cardinal Tetra's in the aclamatising method of bag in water for 30 mins and then slowly added water to the bag over 1hr period before gently releasing them. 

All good. Observed them for a while. Still all good. They seem to mix well with the Diamond Head Tetra's too and swim as a uniform shoal. Cool.

Feed them the brine shrimp Sunday night. All the fish loved it. Did it after 5yr old daughter had gone to bed so she did not get upset about seeing relations of her pet Sea Monkeys (in another little tank) being gobbled up.

Fast forward to tonight - Observing all the fish after a feed of dried granules at tea time and I notice that 1 definitely and potentially 2 Cardinal Tetras are opening and closing their mouths quite quickly maybe 1-2 times per second. However they are not gasping at the top of the tank. No other fish in the tank is doing it or have done since I have owned the tank and the fish. All other fish are swimming around fine and appear to be healthy. No lesions. No snake like movement. 

CO2 is on at about 1 bubble/2 sec. Plants are pearling and releasing lots of oxygen bubbles. Lights are on for 7.5hrs.
Drop Checker is looking lime green (This is the only test thing I have so I cannot provide any other test stats)

Firstly I am not panicing and have not made any radical changes

Is it a CO2 thing? Should I drop that down to 1 bubble/3 sec?
Do I need to do a water change?

Picture of tank from yesterday. Not showing anything in particular other than its another picture





Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
R


----------



## ceg4048

Hi,
    You should always do an immediate massive water change when you observe distress. If the fish in question is suffering hypercapnia (excessive bloodstream CO2 concentration level) then it takes about 24 hours for them to adjust to the higher levels and then they are fine afterwards. The normal behavior of the other fish means that your injection rate is not excessive but that the fish in question may simply be weaker than the other inmates.

If they do not make the adjustment after a few days, and if they continue rapid breathing then this suggests gill damage, which reduces the efficiency of the gills to extract oxygen from the water. Gill damage is usually due to short term exposure to high levels of ammonia or nitrite, and most probably would have occurred previously either during shipping or even in the bag while you are equalizing the temperature if you had opened the bag while floating it.

You should prune the plants to prevent overgrowth and unruliness. Either replant the pruned sections if there is space or remove the bottom sections and plant the pruned section in it's place. 
Start thinking about and experimenting with the geometric patterns you want to see, in exactly the same way as you would think about a garden, otherwise you just have a chaotic and tangled mess. The Cabombas, for example could be shaved to form a round bulb shaped hedge. Try to create and maintain different heights with each group or type of plant.  This gives the tank a more three dimensional appearance rather than a wall of leaves. When you prune the stem side shoots grow out near the site of the cut making the plant bushier, which is more pleasant to look at than tall, scraggly growth. Start thinking about colors, shapes and textures, and don't be afraid to uproot and rearrange plants that would be better placed in a different location.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Ceg4048
Thank you again for coming to the rescue.
I did a large water change and had turned the CO2 down and reduced the photo period to 6-7hrs. 

I will check when I get home, but all fish seem ok. Noted one still breathing rapidly but still swimming normally.

Appreciate the tips on the plants. Not being green fingered in the garden my first priority was see if I could actually keep the plants alive. Which I have proved beyond doubt. Perhaps it was too easy.

As you say now I could start to think about being a bit more thoughtful and put together more of an aquascape. Slight concern that uprooting plants pulls substrate up through the sand and thus makes the sand messy.

But will have a think about how to work with what I have got. 
Thank you
R


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## RolyMo

*Day 71 - Prune and additions*

This weekend I went about my maintenance.
Clean glass of minor algae patches near substrate, removed 6 spots of the green algae off the glass. 50% water change, filter pad change, little hoover of sand.

*Ferts*
I am doing one squirt of the Tropica Premium, and one squirt of the Tropica Specialist fertiliser/day

*Pruning* - I have started to cut back the fast growing plants both width ways and height wise. I am starting to see some brownness in the microsorum leaves, which is not algae, so I am guessing certain leaves are lacking in nutrients, CO2 or flow. The grass type plants are increasingly spreading out, and hopefully I will see less clumpy bits and will become more even. Now I have proved to myself I can actually grow plants, I might think about proper aquascaping.

*CO2*
Is currently around the 1bubble/2-3sec mark and I leave it that way 24/7 as on my cheap setup it is a devil to get the right flow by turning the knob on the reg. Turning by 1mm can cause quite an unwanted increase. But from what I understand the plants take the CO2 during the day and at night time the CO2 dissipates out of the tank.

*Snails*
The Assassin snails seem to be doing their job, slowly but surely. Each morning they seem to hibernate but about on the sand are the opaque empty shells with no sign of their inhabitants. The snail population is much less. Dont know if this a combo of being much more strict with the feeding regime or the Assassin snails. Either way they have decreased.

See picture of one devouring a normal snail.




*New Additions*
With all the fish and shrimps surviving and looking healthy I felt it might be time to add some additional fish. So I took my 2 daughters (5yrs and 8yrs old) to the LFS and attempted to agree on 4 new fish that could be identified and have names and not be just one of the shoal of tetra's etc. I tried to agree on the Red dwarf Gourami's as they look a reasonable size, dont grow massive and throw the size balance of flora and forna off (smallish fish and large landscape), but we had a disagreement. So in the end we got 2 Red Dwarf Gourami's and 2 Guppy's. All got the slow treatment of being added to the tank with no light. All seemed to have settled in and then I fed the whole tank some live red blood worms as a treat. And the names? Merida (guess who went to the cinema recently) and Sunshine for the guppy's.

Watching the Guppy's they certainly like to hit the outflow pipe and ride the flow. Hopefully giving them some exercise. Will read up on their normal behaviour to make sure it is nothing out of the ordinary.

The Gourami's seem a little hesitant in coming to the foreground but appear to be settling in.  
R


----------



## andyh

Great Journal (and well written!) and a very strong step into the world of planted tanks and fish keeping!

This level of journal is what makes UKAPs so strong, keep up the good work!


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks Andy for the comments.
I just want to get as much advise and constructive criticism as possible to help me understand this new hobbie and most of all, ensure that there is no suffering in the tank.

The great thing about UKAPS is that everyone does not hesitate to help no matter how many times the same question gets asked.

For me the water column science bit has been a revelation and very interesting to understand and get right. Especially by just observation and not relying on test kits.
R


----------



## RolyMo

*Slight Panic and quick massive water change*

Hmmmm Came back on Monday evening to find the new guppies whizzing around the outlet pipe and gasping a bit. CO2 was not massively over the top still 1bubble/2-3 sec's. So I decide to do the appropriate thing and do a massive water change for safety reasons. 

Did that and the fish seemed to calm down and chill out and swim gentle and smoothly at the front of the tank.

I did uproot a plant or two and wondered if that could have released some trapped gases that would have got dissolved into the water column and thus started to impact the fish. 

Monitored all evening and everyone seemed fine.

Drop checker although not instantly reliable seemed to stay lime green. Not that it can be trusted. Are those Cal Aqua reference drop checkers worth getting?

Woke up this morning and could not see any of the Amano shrimp where I normally see a good 3-4 at the front of the tank. However none. Worked from home and monitored and still could not see the shrimp. Its only been until now that I have spotted 7 of the 10 that are supposed to be in the tank.

All fish appear to be well. However did not like reading the posts on this forum about the Dwarf Gourami's contract nasty diseases very easily. Wondered if I made the right purchasing choice.

Is there an online resource for fish behaviour of individual breeds of fish or even a book anyone can point me to?
Cheers
R


----------



## ceg4048

Hello,
        Uprooting plants releases ammonia trapped in the sediment. The same biological process that occur in filter also occur in the sediment, except that the sediment sees a lot more ammonia because feces and other organic material falls directly into the sediment. It is not a good idea to do a lot of uprooting unless it is immediately followed by a large (50% or more) water change. Moving the odd plant around is not a big deal, but major construction work should always be followed by a water change. Sometimes, the sudden ammonia release can trigger a green water algae bloom.

I don't know why so many are attracted to the double dropchecker. Having another orb with a color dye in it does not change the way in which CO2 works and will not tell you any more than you already know. Small variations in the DC does not mean much, assuming it is filled with 4dKH water. If the color went from lime green to a deep yellow there might be cause for alarm as this would indicate a large CO2 increase, but otherwise the fish have a wide tolerance for CO2 concentration levels. Those using organic CO2 generators may have issues since the CO2 production in the bottles can increase/decrease rapidly, but for gas cylinders the delivery is usually stable unless the cylinder content is low and if the regulator allows the last surge of gas to escape unregulated. Keep an eye on the cylinder gauge to make sure you are not in the red. If so then refill/replace the cylinder.

The DC will normally stay green in a covered tank because of the trapped gas under the hood. Open topped tanks tend to dissipate the gas more quickly. What you can do is to measure the pH of the tank water directly using the same reagent that you put in the DC. Take measurements at various times during the day and the night and it will give you an image of how the CO2 is behaving in the tank.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks again ceg4048 for your sterling advice.

The uprooting info confirms what I was thinking. So my weekly routine, should be uprrot any plants that need doing, scrape off any small bits of algae on the glass, trimming, then white pad change, and then major water change.

I agree on the coloured orb comment. Even I am sitting there trying to talk myself out of spending the money on the double DC's. A gimmick.

I think its when I introduce new fish I have a nervousness as to whether the water column is going to be ok for them, and I watch constantly (much to my wife's annoyance) watching for issues, hence a question about understanding normal fish behaviour so I can spot anything abnormal.

But so far so good, and the family are still enjoying the tank.
R


----------



## ceg4048

Hi,
The water quality of a planted tank will normally be excellent as long as the plants are healthy and as long as the water changes are large and regular, so I really don't think that's something to worry about. As I mentioned before, if the tank is CO2 injected then new arrivals may have a little difficulty in the beginning until their bodies adapt to the higher concentration levels.

The difficulty in acclimation really has more to do with the shock associated with transport, as well as the apprehension associated with getting accustomed to the new setting and the new tank mates. If I captured you with a net, threw you into a plastic bag and dumped you 8000 miles away from anyplace you have ever known, I think you would be a little shocked as well.

There are plenty of books out there related to the hobby, but most topics of discussion will be about physiology, the mechanics and logistics of tanks and other things such as diseases and treatments. I grew up reading books by Herbert R. Axelrod. Just search Amazon and you'll find loads of his books ranging from simple beginners guides to complete compendiums.

Other then general descriptions, you're not likely to find books detailing the specifics of behavior unless the topic is breeding. Books or websites dedicated to specific species will have more information on behavior though so you'd have to search for sites or books for Swordtails, or Platy's or whatever. Then you find data from hobbyists who specialize in keeping those breeds. Besides the species specific behavioral patterns, behavior differs depending on setting, population density, temperature, lighting as well as what the other tankmates are. New arrivals are stressed because they do not know what predators are in the vicinity, for example. Behavior will change after the period of adjustment.

Tetras are open water swimmers and are generally gregarious fish, so specimens that hang about by themselves may be suffering some malady or stress. Dwarf Chiclids are loners and therefore seek shade and solitude. If they move quickly or if they dart about then something is wrong. Livebearers are also schooling fish but are OK in small groups. High population density for almost all fish results in greater aggression or predatory behavior. There are so many variations on behavioral themes that it's better to simply observe for now and to not worry so much. If a behavior seems strange intuitively or if it differs markedly from the others of the same group then this can be considered suspicious. Much of the behavior we observe in the tank probably is not representative of behavior in the wild so this is a difficult topic in which to be precise.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

*Day 78 - Case of the disappearing Amano's*

Thanks Ceg 4048 for the pointers. I was fast coming to the conclusion that learning about the behaviours was an observation thing rather than finding much on the web.

So one week on, I decided to thin out some of the plants.

In order, I pulled the Java Fern on the bogwood out to thin out, I gently pushed the sand and substrate that was underneath to try and release any build up of gases, which a few bubbles did materialise. 

Trimmed other plants, gently uproot another plant at the end of the tank to try and help promote flow around the tank as I dont have a flow bar, just the outlet from the Juwel Bioflow kit filter. I keep reading about CO2, Flow and light all affect algae.

Then did a bit of hoovering of the stuff that was under the bog wood (not sure what the brown bits were. But they are gone now.

Got the toothbrush out to brush off 10 dots of the tough green algae and small brown patches of brown algae near the substrate.

Then...
Carried out a 70% water change (which is stunning to see how much water is left after).

*Question* What is the best way to take out the water and put new water in? - Currently I use a bucket to scoop out a few bucketfuls making sure no forna is captured in the process (not sure what the fish think). Then I resort to the fat boy siphon to get the remaining water out into the bucket which is then chucked out into the garden.

Putting the water back in - I fill a bucket up, add the appropriate amount of de-chlorinator and then pour into the filter which then flows out of the outlet pipe. Clearly this does not disturb the substrate etc, but with 70% of the water going back in being cold tap water what is the impact of temperature on the flora and forna which have all been used to 23 degree temps until the filter and heater get switched on and few hours later the tank gets back to operating temperature?

Added 2 more guppies (snakeskin ones) to keep the 2 from last week a bit of company.  I took my time to introduce these ones to the tank spending 2 hours to aclimatise the temp in their bag as well as adding small amounts of tank water to the bag. As soon as they were added to the tank all 4 guppies seemed to make friend and go off around the tank together. Very cool.

A few hours later I dropped in a cube of Tropical mix (blood worm and daphnia) frozen food, which was great fun for everyone to watch. Fish loved it. 

*The Change*
Since the trimming, water change and additional guppies the ank appears to be livelier, the fish are swimming around brilliantly. But the shrimp seem to be missing apart from Jacques (kids named it after Finding Nemo) the only Cherry which for the first time is taking centre stage at the front of the tank amongst the grass. The amano's appear to have gone away. I have spotted one or two lurking amongst the flora but normally they are all over, scrounging around on the rocks hanging off leaves etc. 

R


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Rolymo,
                  If the distance from the tank to the garden isn't too long you can just get a cheap submersible pump (or even an external pump)and attach the output end to the long tubing that goes out to the garden, or to the sink in the winter. That way you don't have to carry any buckets, which are such a drag. Likewise, you can connect the tubing to the faucet and run it straight to the tank, which likewise avoids buckets. On some models of submersibles, the inlet is the entire base of the pump. On other models there is a dedicated inlet spud. These give you a bit more control because you can then attach a hose with an inlet mesh which, depending on the grain size of your substrate, can be pushed down into the sediment to clean it out and can be inserted into the plant beds to pull out trapped dirt as you shake things out. You can see a picture of this contraption on page 3 of http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6331&hilit=lagoon&start=20 where I just combined  the bottom piece of an Eheim intake tube assembly with an adapter and hose to siphon out dirt. Read the little blurb in that post about how to get the best out of the water change. Your dechlor can go directly in the tank anytime. it's not really a big deal.

The same pump can be used to pull water from your bathtub or sink and to send it to the tank, and that way you can control the temperature of the new water by filling the sink to the desired temperature. Normally, having new water a few degrees cooler than the tank is OK, but if it's too cold you can drive thermal shock of the fish. the plants don't really care too much.

Cheers,


----------



## niru

Hello Rolymo

your journal is an absolute gem for any novice and not-so-novice alike! I love the vivid, descriptive and frank observations, actions and remarks you have jotted down. Its absolue pleasure to see how you have been initiated and a progressing in this newish hobby of yours.

Plus the dialogues and feedbacks from others & Clive are also very stimulating... making one think of continual improvements that can and need to be done in the tank.

Do keep us updated on your tank life.

cheers
niru


----------



## Ady34

niru said:
			
		

> Hello Rolymo
> 
> your journal is an absolute gem for any novice and not-so-novice alike! I love the vivid, descriptive and frank observations, actions and remarks you have jotted down. Its absolue pleasure to see how you have been initiated and a progressing in this newish hobby of yours.
> 
> Plus the dialogues and feedbacks from others & Clive are also very stimulating... making one think of continual improvements that can and need to be done in the tank.
> 
> Do keep us updated on your tank life.
> 
> cheers
> niru


+1 for that Niru, 
its great to see someone new to the hobby embracing it, learning, growing with it and most importantly taking enjoyment from it, its a great hobby!.....keep it up Roly, great stuff


----------



## RolyMo

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi Rolymo,
> If the distance from the tank to the garden isn't too long you can just get a cheap submersible pump (or even an external pump)and attach the output end to the long tubing that goes out to the garden, or to the sink in the winter. That way you don't have to carry any buckets, which are such a drag. Likewise, you can connect the tubing to the faucet and run it straight to the tank, which likewise avoids buckets. On some models of submersibles, the inlet is the entire base of the pump. On other models there is a dedicated inlet spud. These give you a bit more control because you can then attach a hose with an inlet mesh which, depending on the grain size of your substrate, can be pushed down into the sediment to clean it out and can be inserted into the plant beds to pull out trapped dirt as you shake things out. You can see a picture of this contraption on page 3 of http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=6331&hilit=lagoon&start=20 where I just combined  the bottom piece of an Eheim intake tube assembly with an adapter and hose to siphon out dirt. Read the little blurb in that post about how to get the best out of the water change. Your dechlor can go directly in the tank anytime. it's not really a big deal.
> 
> The same pump can be used to pull water from your bathtub or sink and to send it to the tank, and that way you can control the temperature of the new water by filling the sink to the desired temperature. Normally, having new water a few degrees cooler than the tank is OK, but if it's too cold you can drive thermal shock of the fish. the plants don't really care too much.
> 
> Cheers,



Ceg4048
Thanks for the ideas and the link to an interesting conversation, which is helping me understand the ferts subject. I am about 50% of the way through the Tropica Premium and Specialised 500ml pumps. So as I get close to the end I need to figure out if I should look at the EI dosing that people seem to be doing versus, just pumping the pre-mixed Tropica stuff. I guess its just a money thing?


----------



## RolyMo

niru said:
			
		

> Hello Rolymo
> 
> your journal is an absolute gem for any novice and not-so-novice alike! I love the vivid, descriptive and frank observations, actions and remarks you have jotted down. Its absolue pleasure to see how you have been initiated and a progressing in this newish hobby of yours.
> 
> Plus the dialogues and feedbacks from others & Clive are also very stimulating... making one think of continual improvements that can and need to be done in the tank.
> 
> Do keep us updated on your tank life.
> 
> cheers
> niru



Niru and Ady34
Your comments and encouragement are gratefully received, thank you.

I don't think I would have got where I am with the tank 3-4 months on without the kind and very willing people contributing to my journal and other small spot posts I have made.

I was thinking the same things as you guys about the conversation streams throughout the Journal and how informative it has been for me and hopefully (and I mean hopefully) other novices who read the journal. I could not have begun to imagine I would have got the responses so early on. Thought it would be, "oh no not another noob, use google, read the posts etc etc", as in other completely different subject forums. But people have contributed even though it does look in some cases, repetition.

I like to think even though there is repetition of some information I have seen a lot more depth than perhaps other posts. Which has been golden for me in my first few months as an absolute beginner.

I actually do re-read the journal and the responses so I can second check that I am doing everything right.

Ceg4048 (not sure I have earned the right to call him Clive yet)  has certainly given me a good steer and opened my eyes on the classic Algae, CO2, Light conundrum, allowing me to understand, (I say that loosely as I clearly don't understand the machinations to the molecular level that perhaps Ceg4048 does) appreciate and enjoy all the elements of the tank rather than be disheartened by the classic Algae nightmares that seem to be apparent with other tanks. Pint glass half full guy!!   

But then again experiencing the challenges, understanding it and knowing what to do and returning the tank back to its normal equilibrium is part of the fun of looking after a tank. 

*Surprise*
The latest surprise is that I noticed a very small Amano shrimp (2cm long) yesterday. Now I am pretty sure when I originally bought the 10 they were all much larger than 2cm.

I have also spotted one of the larger Amano shrimp with what looks like the eggs in between the legs. But I thought that Amano shimp breeding was done is salt water, a'la in the real work the eggs get washed down the rivers into the sea where birth happens and then the shrimp swim back up as the stream as part of their migratory DNA. Will take a picture or 2 later when the lights come on and will start to play a Sherlock Holmes to understand where this small Amano shrimp has come from.

R


----------



## RolyMo

*Day 85 - Slight browning on the Java Fern & first fatality*

Have been going great guns with the tank until the latter part of this week.

*Background*
I have the CO2 24/7 at approx 1 bubble/3 sec's.
I dose the tank every day first thing in the morning with 3 pumps of Tropica Premium and 2 pumps of Tropica Specialised.
Photo period is currently 6hrs from 4pm until 10pm so kids and adults get to see the tank.
Friday evening is my once a week tank maintenance (in reality I do tend to it during the week, but Fridays is water change unless otherwise needed.

*Friday Evening*
Got round to examining the tank to work out what plants need trimming and changing, any algae spots that need to be scrubbed off, is everyone healthy? etc.

But as I was doing this I noticed a dead fish that the Amano shrimps were doing their job of consuming. Very alarmed I worked out that it was one of the Diamond Head Neon Tetra's. I quickly look at all the other fish who all seem absolutely fine and dandy, healthy and pleased with themselves. Very gutted however, my first fish fatality. But I was also morbidly fascinated that the clean up crew were going to work on the dead fish. Wondered if I should take the dead fish out, but thought the shrimp were doing a fine job so left it. And indeed the next morning it had disappeared.

I continued with my routine, now adding the stage of rummaging through the plants to release any impurities on the leaves. Prodded the substrate to release any toxic gasses and scrubbed off the small patches of brown algae forming at the bottom next to the substrate.

Changed 40% of the water. Changed the white pad. Rinsed the blue and black (active charcoal) sponges in a bucket of tank water and placed back into the filter.

Everyone happy.

*Sunday*
Fast forward to Sunday and I have the royal family coming round (my parents) for tea. So turned the tank lights on to do a further spruce of the tank and notice a few plant issues.

The Java Fern appears on some leaves to be going brown (its not algae as it does not wipe off) so I am assuming its melt due to deficiency of something. Also see a few holes in some other of the plants especially ones lower down a plant and the leaves on some are going transparent.

So I have increased the CO2 to 1 bubble every 2 secs, have tweeked the outflow pipe downwards to reduce the suface agitation slightly and hopefully increase a little bit more flow into the tank rather than on the agitation. There is still movement but not so much. Hopefully keeping more of the CO2 in the water column.

Images of the plants here











Any thoughts and advice most welcome.
Thanks in advance.
R


----------



## ceg4048

Hi,
    You should remove all dead fish immediately. The body rots and fouls the tank.

As the plant mass increases, the need for CO2 increases so you need to add more CO2. Trim the ferns to allow for better penetration. The images you show are classic symptoms of poor CO2. You may need more than a 30% increase in the injection rate, but see how it goes. It may take several weeks for improvements to show. Getting CO2 right is a very tricky business. You might be able to supplement with daily addition of liquid carbon.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks Ceg4048.

I had made the decision to increase the CO2, as you say it is logical that as the flora mass increases then the CO2 requirements increase. I can tell I am going to have to fork out for a more professional CO2 setup (with solenoid and proper pro regulator) to provide a more reliable constant CO2.

Will look at the liquid carbon option to supplement the injected supply.

To get over the death of the Diamond Neon Tetra, my daughter did the big eye thing and we bought 4 cardinal tetra's to supplement the shoal. They were introduced over 3 hour period and appear to have settled in nicely. 

Just watched the Assassin Snail track down a little common snail and suck the life out of it. Fascinating. Also the Guppies seem to be a playful bunch. Put your hand in and they approach and kiss your arm/hand. Amazing. Although common I would not mind tracking down some fancy colour Guppies that are not quite as common as the LFS breeds.

Even the 2 Red Dwarf Gourami's are fascinating with their slightly cautious behaviour, watching them mingle with the other fish/shrimp.

Still looking out for that special piece of Sumatra wood for a centre (off centre) piece.

Cheers
R


----------



## RolyMo

*Day 104 - A few adjustments to see what will happen*

Oooooooh day 104 and my tank community are still all (bar the 1) alive, thriving and appear to be well.

The Java Ferns appear to still have leaves that are going brown from the veins and certain patches on certain leaves. But the majority are fine. Still scrapping off the brown algae of the glass next to the substrate, but I am guessing this is life with a fish tank.

*Flow*
My concern has shifted to flow and more importantly the flow of pushing the CO2 in the water column around to all parts of the tank to try and stop the issues with the Java Fern and maybe get rid of the brown algae on the glass.

I originally had the output bit of the built in Juwel filter angled to the rear of the tank in the hope that would push the water to the back and then to a circular motion around the tank going anti-clockwise.

My latest test is I have swung the output jet facing the front and due to its angle it actually jets the water to the centre of the tank from the rear of the right hand side, thus potentially creating a figure of eight if the water currents are that strong (not). I cut back the marked Java Fern leaves and also pulled one or 2 cutting that have got unruly.

*PFK on the iPad*
Over the last 2 weeks I managed to buy Pratical Fishkeeping on the iPad which is a result. No where near me stocks the physical mag and I wanted to see what it was like before committing to a subscription. In the space of 2 weeks I have managed to get 3 issues on the iPad which brighten my occasionally commutes to London up no end.

Now all we need is for PFK to make it a bit more interactive like Empire magazine, plus add a code in the print mag so if you subscribe you get both (which seems to the be trend) print and digital.

What the mag has done for me is to add more imagery to the aquascapes I see on ukaps (clearly there is overlap with some of the contributors of PFK and forum members) and has got me thinking about I would like more (off) centre rock structure with I guess more subtrate to create a scene. Don't get me wrong I love what I achieved, but now I am hungry for more. What the mag doesn't help with is showing me all the lovely ADA stuff which is just a tad too expensive when you tot it all up. I lie, its great to see what people can achieve with all types of budget.

*Fish*
Anyway PFK mag did show me some new fish which I started to like. I'm sure it was to do with the contrast of the fish against the lush plants in an ADA pimped tank. So today I went to the lfs to get either the Harlequin Rasbora or the Red Phantom Tetra's. Both looked really good in the mag. Both looked ok in the LFS (I had heard their colours get better once in a nice tank). God it was difficult decision. The lure of the contrast of the black tail segment of the Harlequins and they way they dart/swim forward vs the £1 more trendy Red Phantom Tetras. 

In the end I went for a nice 10 fish shoal of the Red Phantom Tetra's especially after I got shown some in the LFS long display tank. Looked very cool. Anyway they have been plopped in the tank after having 2 hours of temp and water acclimatisation and are currently milling about in amongst the foliage. Lights on at 16:00 for when the kids come back.

My question of the week..... <drum roll please>
*Feeding*
When I started the tank and got the first 4 fish (platy's) I was told to feed them only a few granules each of the Tetra Prima every other day. I have over the time tried the live Brine Shrimp, and am regularly giving 1 cube of frozen food, but in place of their Prima food and still every other day.

Now the community has swelled to guppy's, neon tetra's the dwarf Gourami's and the recent editions the Red Phantom Tetra's. Should the feeding regime still be every other day? Is the Prima still enough for the population? I guessing the golden rule is don't overfeed as this increases the bad water.

Feedback welcome.
R


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Rolymo,
                Glad things are going well with the tank. The issues with the fern and the diatomic algae are not inevitable. This indicates an issue with CO2 and flow/distribution. If it's possible to upgrade the pump in your internal mount filter then that might be a possible solution. Ideally, you'd want to pull the internal out, which would be more aesthetically appealing and would give you more real estate in the tank. Then you'd be better served with any strong external canister. The internal is mounted with silicon glue so it's tedious to cut with a razor and to scrape of the residue.

As far as feeding goes I would still follow that golden rule. Fish living in cushy tanks, never having to worry about being chased and eaten, and only having to swim a few meters a day don't really need as much food as people seem to imagine. If they feel hungry then maybe they will eat some of the algae. Hopefully they won't eat any of the plants...

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks Ceg4048.
Arrghh. i was hoping that I might get through the first year without having to upgrade the kit tank filter to a spanking new Enheim Pro 3e . Is the Juwel Bioflow truly not up to the job? Should I thin the plants  a bit as an alternative?
Thanks
R
Oh Some pictures because I know I like looking at the photos in peoples posts.   

The Red Phantom Tetras







The Red Dwarf Gourami







Guppy







Platy hanging with his new pals the Red Phantom Tetra's


----------



## ceg4048

Hi mate,
             Yeah those are nice shots and it shows that the plants are doing mostly OK. The ferns look a little ragged and I can see a few black spots which a a typical sign that they are having difficulty with CO2. I think keeping everything thinned out is a pretty good alternative. The carpet plants seem to be doing well enough, so I don't think it's an emergency or anything like that. You might even try an injection rate increase or think about adding some of Richards Aquacarbon to supplement CO2 (should be cheaper than Excel).

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Hi Ceg4048
Phew thanks for confirming the alternative.
I will seek out the aqua carbon, and gentle nudge up the co2 rate.

I took a photo this evening as the fish close ups were not showing the full extent of growth.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s6/s...9cb4ffc546bc/98b79e684018017919fc25ff7cd64a84

Arrows on the photo are to show where I am shifting the plants. 
Thoughts welcome
R

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## ceg4048

Hi mate,
            My personal preference is to hide the big black box in the right rear corner, so I would be more inclined to try a triangular arrangement with the faster growing hygrophila(?) or the cabomba moved more to mask it with progressively lower trims moving diagonally towards the left front corner. The problem with the cabomba is that it is subject to urban sprawl which contributes to flow blockage.

Again, the taller Alternanthera and (what appears to be) some kind of Ludwigia out to be move rearwards just in front of the more sprawling Cabomba. That's just one way of thinking though. There are many possibilities, but having a progressively lower heights towards the front diagonal should theoretically, at least, help with flow distribution.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Hi Ceg4048
Appreciate the pointers on the plant rearrangement.
Quick question wont masking the filter (black box) restrict intake flow?
Cheers
R


----------



## ceg4048

No mate, as long as the intake slots do not become plugged it will be fine.

Cheers,


----------



## John S

The tank looks great. An excellent journal


----------



## RolyMo

davem said:
			
		

> The tank looks great. An excellent journal



Thanks Dave, although it looks quite luscious I still need to sort out the CO2 and flow as per the discussion above.

Thanks Ceg4048 for the confirmation in the intake grills.

As both my bottles of Tropica Ferts are starting to get low I have just put in an order for an EI Starter kit from one of the site sponsors (got the 10% off using the forum discount code, thanks). So I look forward to figuring out how to make the mixture relevant to my 180l and the my water hardness.

Not sure what the correct figure to use is? These are the water hardness figures from my local water authority for where I live.
Mg/l CaCO3 ppm CaCO3
294
Clarkes d English
20.5
German dH
16.4
French dF
29.4
Mg/l Calcium
117.5
Mmol/l Alk Earths
2.9

Can anyone suggest which figure I use please?
Thanks in advance.
R


----------



## ceg4048

Rolymo,
            Those numbers are all different ways of saying exactly the same thing. Those are just the General Hardness values measured on different scales, kind of like those banners that show the word "Hello" in 5 different languages. Looks like you water is fairly hard. Not a big deal right now.

 In any case, General Hardness, which is a count of the combination of Calcium and Magnesium have nothing to do with EI dosing, which is all about Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium (NPK) and trace metals such as Iron, Zinc, Copper and so forth. There is no relevance. Dose per the instructions on your Starter Pack, and if you have the time and patience, you should thoroughly read the thread EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS in the Tutorial forum section.

Cheers,


----------



## RolyMo

Thanks Ceg4048
I think i must of got confused about the impact of water hardness and EI dosing. And yes I have the patience to read it.

I had read your brilliant explanation before, but was good to refresh myself with the new found knowledge.

Of course its all in gallons and I work in litres (European) so managed to understand the concepts you explain and find a calculator. Cannot believe it is so much cheaper than the Tropica stuff. 

To me its all about making sure the fish are in a healthy environment and at the same time if I can provide healthy flora for them that is a bonus. Its a positive challenge and journey.

Thanks again and I appreciate your help. I know my input to the forum is nil and I take so much from it. My only hope is my humble tank journal is read by others and helps educate them too.
Best regards
Roland


----------



## ceg4048

Hi Roland,
Yes, the low cost is really the main point of the scheme, and that's why I point that out in the first paragraph of the post. Why pay for water when you have rivers of it falling from the sky every day?

But I also want to change people's concept of just what it means to provide a healthy environment for the fish. As many people do, beginners and experienced folks alike, in your mind you have the cart before the horse. The ecological system your fish live in is fundamentally structured around the plants, not the reverse. The two imperatives therefore go hand in hand. When you create an environment that satisfies the requirement of the plants, they then produce the environmental changes than benefit the fish. Plants do not simply sit there looking pretty. Plants are are chemical warhorses and they actively change the environment to suit their needs. Did you realize that all the Oxygen that is in the atmosphere right now came only from plants? Oxygen did not simply appear on Earth. Prior to the appearance of plants there was only CO2, Nitrogen and other noxious gasses in the atmosphere. Bacteria and later, algae, were the first to exploit the CO2 and water to make food. During this process they expelled Oxygen. It took a few billion years but we finally have an atmosphere that is 21% Oxygen. We could not have evolved into what we are today without this basic food making procedure of algae and plants. If plants disappear from the planet in significant quantities, our destruction will be assured.

In your tank, plants reproduce this basic and important process. They remove noxious Nitrogenous compounds and other inorganic toxicants such as metals from the water and they replace the toxicants with Oxygen, more Oxygen than the fish are able to obtain by themselves from it dissolving in the water from the air. Plants also remove and use the same Calcium and Magnesium that gives the water it's hardness. In so doing, plants also provide the extra Oxygen and carbohydrates necessary for the nitrifying bacteria to thrive in the sediment and in the filter, so you have a better, more diverse and healthier aerobic bacterial population in the tank and they oxidize the pollutants like Ammonia and Nitrite in the tank. The fact that your fish survived being thrown in the tank too early was aided in no small part to the beneficial action of the plants, who not only removed Ammonia directly, but also pumped up and accelerated the beneficial bacteria much faster than possible than in a tank devoid of plants. The only thing the plants cannot do is to remove the huge amount of organic waste that they themselves produce. You must do that with water changes.

So when you think about the tank system, it's better to think in terms of supplying the environment most beneficial to the plant health first. When you take care of the plants, they will then automatically take care of the fish. Obviously, we have to intervene because we have to set limits on the amount of CO2, and because it's a closed system, with no escape path for organic waste buildup, there has to be fresh new water regularly input to the system. The nutrients that we add do not harm the fish but under the lighting levels we impose, and under the CO2 levels that we inject, the nutrients are vital to the health of the plants. That's why, when we observe the tank and when we see problems with a plant, it is an early warning sign that the environmental conditions could be on the decline. So we try to find the best way to improve the conditions so that the plants are contributing to the improvement of the conditions instead of contributing to it's decline.

Hope this makes sense. 

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

Hi Ceg4048

Your eloquent explanation makes perfect sense, and further illustrates the magic of keeping a living, breathing tank. Its your very own slice of nature on show in your house. Do it right and it is living art. Probably why so many people are fascinated with aquascaping. I feel in some cases the fish are just the finish touch to the piece of art, and they of course are magical in their own right. Certainly my family love going to the big commercial aquariums as well as looking at the tank

There is an Interesting point in your third to last sentence, which reinforce the observation theme I am learning from you and the forum.



> The nutrients that we add do not harm the fish but under the lighting levels we impose, and under the CO2 levels that we inject, the nutrients are vital to the health of the plants. That's why, when we observe the tank and when we see problems with a plant, it is an early warning sign that the environmental conditions could be on the decline. So we try to find the best way to improve the conditions so that the plants are contributing to the improvement of the conditions instead of contributing to it's decline



As you mentioned cost is clearly a driver as it is cost efficient to mix your own. But is mixing your own or I should say EI delivering a more optimised set of nutrients than say the Tropica ferts?

Cheers
R


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## Stitch

Really nice post Clive. I always seem to get great visualisations in my head while reading your posts, helps the information stay in there.

R,

If price wasn't enough of an advantage between EI and purchased ferts, you must have read the saying "every tank is different"? Well EI dosing allows you to easier customise for your tank, at that moment in time. If you need less Nitrate, then dose slightly less. If you need more potassium, then dose a bit more.

As the guys on here keep posting, your plants will tell you what they need. Just look at them for the signs. I guess stuff like bad growth, incorrect colours, holes in the leaves, yellowing of leaves etc.

The hardest part I find is that once you make a change it takes a while to actually see the results so being patient is key.

I'm in the same situation as you, just getting started with my first Juwel tank, and learning a lot from here as I go.


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## RolyMo

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> Hi mate,
> My personal preference is to hide the big black box in the right rear corner, so I would be more inclined to try a triangular arrangement with the faster growing hygrophila(?) or the cabomba moved more to mask it with progressively lower trims moving diagonally towards the left front corner. The problem with the cabomba is that it is subject to urban sprawl which contributes to flow blockage.
> 
> Again, the taller Alternanthera and (what appears to be) some kind of Ludwigia out to be move rearwards just in front of the more sprawling Cabomba. That's just one way of thinking though. There are many possibilities, but having a progressively lower heights towards the front diagonal should theoretically, at least, help with flow distribution.
> 
> Cheers,



Ceg4048
See revised photo of tank with Plant names instead. Can you name what you think the Cabomba and hygrophila was so I can then understand where you think the plants should be moved? Please and thank you.


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## ceg4048

Hi Roland,
               Sorry, I was too lazy to go back through the thread to confirm the identities. What I was calling the Cabomba is actually the L. Sessiflora (it sprawls like the Cabomba) and what I called the Hygrophila is actually the H. zosterfolia. I do apologize for the confusion.

Yes, the H. zosterfolia is a very fast growing plant, so you can use it to cover the box. The Luwigia as you can see, tends to grow a bit thin and straggly, so you need to prune it more often in order for it to get bushier. I would separate it from the Alternanthera and use it's red color  to accent a different area, perhaps in the mid-ground between the ferns/crypts and the sprawlers in the back. It looks better if you keep it mid height and bushy rather than tall and lanky.

The same story goes for the Alternanthera. The two groves are best kept together, and for now can be kept at mid height.

The Amanias look "exposed" over there in the corner. In my opinion they woul look better in the spot vacated by the Sessiflora. That area where they are now would look better (to me) if it were just carpeted.

Again, these are just some possibilities. There are many ways to skin the cat.

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

*eeek my first Decline*

Sorry I have not posted for a few weeks.

To update

I have weened myself off the programme of alternating the 2 Tropica ferts every day and switched to EI, mixed into the bottles that came with the EI starter kit from one of the Sponsors. 

Still struggling to get the CO2 correct. Partly due to the difficulty in getting the flow right means turning the knob sometimes by 1mm any more causes major bubbles. That difficulty causes me to leave it at a slower flow day and night. But I believe the plants need more that 1 bubble per second.

The second variable that I believe has caused a decline in the tank is that I have a battery backup electronic timer switch for the lights. Ever since UK has reverted to GMT and I adjusted the switch, the lights come on additionally at some point from midnight to 7am. My guess is 4am. This has happened over a few nights this week and I believe has caused a lot of melting of the plants and the BBS algae on tank glass.

Today I have spent a few hours rectifying stuff. In order
1. Reset the timer switch to factory settings and then reprogrammed the clock and lights on time to be 4pm to 10pm every day.
2. Prune the plants that have been affected by the melt and lack of CO2 and food.
3. Prodded the substrate to release any bad gas.
4. Scrapped off the algae from the glass and rocks.
5. Syphoned out 75% water and hoovered the tank floor.
6. Replaced with tap water and relevant declorinator
7. Started the EI cycle.
8. Changed my white sponge thing in the filter.

So initial observations 

Blimey the water is extremely cold, and looks like it affected the fish. One Cardinal looked like it was dying. I switched on the lights to help speed up the warming of the water (CO2 was on). 

Left for a an hour and switched off the lights and checked everything. Tetras were swimming normally......

But found a Red Phantom Tetra by the filter intake clearly wiped out and dying. Turned off the filter to see what would happen and the poor thing just floated near the surface with very little movement. Prodded gently and still not good.

So I am rushed to create an ice bath in a tupperware tub and got a smaller one and scooped out the fish into some tank water and then settled that into the ice bath. It clearly was on deaths door and I hope and reduced its suffering.

So Questions:-
1. The water in my mind was very cold. Outdoor air temp has been 4 degree Celcius. Should I somehow be warming 90litres of water up before a water change?
2. Is that cold water going to distress the fish out?

Oh and my wife's original Platy that seemed to be segregated from the rest of the fish finally died. It was fished out immediately. The kids were a bit upset. So we are going to release it into a stream along with the youngest Sea Monkeys that she has got bored of. 

R


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## ceg4048

Hi mate,
             These are tropical fish, so it's one of the worst mistakes you can make to put near ice water in the tank. Use warm water from the tap or mix water in a tub/sink and pump it into the tank. Get a long hose from the garden center or hardware shop that fits over the nearest tap.

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ceg4048
Appreciate the tip. Lesson learned the very very hard way. And feel the absolute fool. 
R


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## RolyMo

*Tank back on track and looking clear*

After the decline episode which was due clearly to lack of CO2 as always it seems, I have spent the last few weeks in ensuring there is a good flow of CO2 into the tank. i.e. I upped the bubble count to approx 2 bubbles/sec.

Also pruned some the plants down a little and moved some of them around to try and get a scene going. Likewise I used some of the issues of AquaJournal online to look at the suggested pruning principles on different types of flora, as well as cutting heights as you go along the tank. All great info.

Algae and melting plants have been knocked back into shape.

I decided to add 200ml of Seachem's Purigen to a 70 Denier cut off from a pair of tights (ended with a rubberband) and then place underneath the black active carbon sponge in the Bioflow filter. Instead of removing the active carbon sponge I left it inside as it provided a flat layer for the white wool layer (one of stopping debris) going through). So that is an additional layer in the filter which I imagine has stepped down the efficiency of the flow.

Wow what a difference the Purigen has made! Stunning. So stunning that you would not believe there is any water in the tank. It just looks like plants are growing in air and fish are swimming in the air too. Very bizarre. Its like watching HD tv for the first time. You are memorised by the effect.

So I will monitor the flow over the next week to see if the degrade in flow causes melting of the plants. 

Also have done 2 water changes from the tap with mixed cold and hot water to create a good temperature water to put into the tank. 

Phew. First decline, watched, identified, learned from and made adjustments to compensate and bring back equilibrium..... for the moment.
 
R


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## RolyMo

Just curious about the white spot on the Dwarf Gourami. It looks like a grain of sand. No other fish has it. 

Any thoughts?

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## Ady34

No idea!
Is it still there or has it gone?


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## RolyMo

Still there. A day later


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## RolyMo

Still there 2 days later. 


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## Clifford

A few questions about the spot:

Has it changed size or appearance?

Have more appeared?

Does the fish appear stressed or is it rubbing against plants or hard scape?


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## Swee

May be his new piercing... Sorry, I'm already out  :arrow:


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## RolyMo

Hi Clifford
The white spot is still there in the same position, the same size and appears not to be causing behavioural issues. No other fish have it. 
R


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## RolyMo

Swee
Ha ha. 


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## Clifford

How odd.

I'd be tempted to let it be at present. Any attempt at treatment might stress the fish and cause more problems.


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## RolyMo

Thanks for the pointer Clifford. As always the single greatest thing I have learnt on this forum is observe, before making any rash decisions.
R


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## RolyMo

What a week.
Ran out of CO2. Of the compressed type. 

However my work and travel did not afford me to get to the LFS to get a replacement canister. So I flicked the switch off on the lights so that when timer came on no lights appeared. 

My thinking is that if there was no light the plants would not consume much co2 and I would minimise any melt. 

2 Days later I manage to get a new CO2 canister and plug it all back in. Lights on tonight revealed a slightly less green set of plants with a little bit of browning. Also noticed the DC was blue, but the fish seem ok. 

CO2  was put on 2 hrs before lights on. 
DC back up to green. 


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## Ady34

You did the best possible thing roly  
It would have been much worse if you'd left the lights on. I'm sure now co2 is back, with a few extra water changes things will be green again in no time.


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## RolyMo

Phew. Thanks for the reassurance Ady
Will be doing my 50% weekly water change on Sat (tomorrow)
R


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## Ady34

I'd maybe do 2x weekly changes for a couple of weeks to ensure any ill effects from the lack of co2 are counteracted.
Little but of browning suggests some level of failure, and as a result there will be an increase of organic waste which will need removing.
Cheerio,
Ady


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## RolyMo

Ah Merry Christmas.

The past few weeks have been an interesting one from my perspective in observing the tank.

Since the incident with CO2 running out the tank appears to be almost back to shape. I think my grass was worst hit as I can see lots of blades have gone brown, but still see the majority of the carpet is green.

Lights are still at 6hrs.

Interestingly what I have started to notice in the last week is hair algae. Wow. Stunned. I noticed it on my Valis and my Anubias had the hair algae on some leaves, not all. Looked it up on the algae blog that this forum points to and got the impression that it was due to CO2 issues and also phosphate levels.

So I did my weekly 50% water change after trying rub off some of the hair algae, then noticed that the CO2 bottle was depleted.  

LFS was out of CO2 so my only alternative was to buy some Easy Carbo until new CO2 canisters came in.

Day 2 of Easy Carbo and I noticed my drop checker has gone blue. I am adding approx 5ml/day for my 180l medium planted tank. Fish seem fine. Lights are currently out until 4pm.

Thinking about upping the phosphate in my EI dosing. Currently following the standard mix as suggested elsewhere on the forum.

R



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## Ady34

Hi Roly,
algae will most definitely be down to the co2. Once you get your gas reinstalled I'd maybe try to slowly increase it as your plants have most likely increased in mass and may require a fraction more than before. The recent fluctuations and depletion will have encouraged the algae, especially if the lights were still set the come on. 
The liquid carbon will have no effect on your drop checker as it is a different carbon source which doesn't alter the ph of the indicator solution....hence why it has returned to its blue colour. The liquid carbon will help as an algaecide as well as a temporary carbon source and it may well be worth your while continuing dosing it alongside your gas co2 for a week or two to help overcome the algae issues and any period of tweaking whilst your reinstating the gas.
id also do an extra water change per week for a couple of weeks just to help keep the tank clean during this period.
cheerio,
Ady.


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ady
Will execute on your advice. 

Interestingly the LFS seemed to think the hair algae might be down to an increase in the nitrate level in the water supply due to the recent massive rain fall as they had another customer within the same week. 

Noticed that lights have been on for a couple of hours now and I have not seen any pearling as I would with the injected CO2. Is there an optimum time during the day to add the easy carbo?


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## Ady34

Hi Roly,
not sure about the local fish shop diagnosis of high nitrates causing the algae....but low/fluctuating co2 is definitely a cause so I'd be inclined to concentrate on that.
Regards the easy carbo, liquid carbon doesn't provide the same levels of carbon enrichment as gas, so some use double or even triple the recommended manufacturers dosages. It is unlikely that you will experience the same pearling you observed during gas injection for this reason.
The best time to add the liquid carbon source is as close to lights on as possible as it only lasts for 24hrs in the tank before it is exhausted, but ensure it is dosed sometime pre lights on so it's available to the plants as soon as the photoperiod begins just like gas.
coincidentally Clive (Ceg) has just posted some useful information on liquid carbon in another journal so I copied and pasted below for you to have a read, a few useful snippets!
cheerio,
Ady.

Clive:
Well there's very little theory involved. Adding more CO2 increases plant growth rates and plant health. Since, for our purposes, inside the plant tissue, liquid carbon => CO2, then adding liquid carbon at the same time as adding gaseous CO2 means that there is more available CO2 for the plant. The two compounds do not compete with each other, i.e adding liquid carbon does not prevent the plants from using the gas, and vice-versa.

So, it can easily be (and happens quite often) that due to the sensitivity of the fish or shrimp in that particular tank, as well as due to other factors, such as poor flow/distribution, too much light etc., the hobbyist finds that the gas injection rate is at a maximum permissible level with respect to toxicity, yet the tank still suffers CO2 related algae. Supplementing liquid carbon simply adds more CO2 while avoiding crossing of the gas toxicity threshold.

Of course, there are three main limitations:
1. The liquid only delivers a fraction of the amount of CO2 that the gas delivers.
2. Liquid carbon has toxicity issues of it's own.
3. Liquid Carbon is much more expensive than gas.

So liquid carbon is no panacea, but it is simply a tool that raises the available CO2 levels, while having some algaecidal properties. These products can be used at whatever non-toxic levels desired. I don't have an exhaustive list of plants that react negatively, the most reported being Riccia, Elodea and Vallis. However, toxicity is based on_ concentration level_, not just the presence of gluteraldehyde. So that's why some people will report that their Vallis, dies while others will report that Vallis thrives with the addition of liquid carbon. Just about all carpet plants, mosses, ferns, crypts, swords and most stems do fine.

A starting dose, assuming none of the low tolerance species are in the tank can be a daily dose at the beginning of the photoperiod of the suggestion on the bottle, but, depending on the fish/shrimp in the tank this can be exceeded, or it may need to be dosed at a lower level. It's also important to note that this should be a DAILY dosing, otherwise this can sometimes equate to poor CO2 stability, which can cause other problems.

There are quite a few people dosing liquid carbon only so it would be better to search for those threads or search using the name of the plant/fish with "carbon", Excel" and so forth to see what others experience.

Cheers,​ceg4048, Today at 7:00 PM​Report​​#19​Like​Reply​​LondonDragon and kap k like this.​


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## RolyMo

I am two weeks into using Easy Carbo and no injected CO2. 
For the 180l tank I am dosing approx 8-9ml of the stuff. But am still waiting for the LFS to get some new 1.5kg tanks in. 
The fish appear to be ok with it. The plants I have noticed have slowed down. I would say they are melting, but I believe I have noticed they are growing much slower. 

The DC still appears to be on the blue side of the spectrum and is positively blue first thing in the morning. After a couple of hours of lights on the DC is less blue, but is still not green. But again all the fish appear to be healthy and happy.

I have been experimenting with dosing at different times of the day as I am not sure if the CO2 leaves the water column in the same way as when you inject. 

Looks like in the long run I am going to have to save up for a proper regulator and solanoid and FE setup, as it is taking a while for the suppliers to get the LFS their refilled canisters.

Still observing and still learning lots.
R


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## Iain Sutherland

Your Dc wont change colour when using liquid co2 as it is the gas co2 that reacts with the reagent in the DC.  I believe Tom Barr was talking about doing some study into liquid carbon and its lifespan but as ady said the current belief is that is has quite a short lifespan, 24hrs or less.  As lond as you dose each morning i wouldnt worry about it being too close to lights on just be sure its regular.


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## RolyMo

Hi Iain and Ady
Appreciate your help and pointers.
Thank you.
R


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## RolyMo

Wow. That was a while away from the forum. 
This is partly due to the fact that since my supplier of CO2 had a refilling issue you I had to switch to liquid carbon, which I felt (naively probably, was not as much benefit to the plants as the injected method) and thus felt I was just keeping the tank going and not much to write home about.

Interesting to note that during the 2 months of using liquid carbon, I did on average 10ml per day which was 2ml over for my size of tank. This was due to the measuring receticle not being granular enough for me. But what was more interesting was that none of fish seemed to mind. 

What else happened during the 2 months. The plants appeared not grow as aggressively as the injected method. For me the liquid carbon method was easier to administer as my injected method has no solenoid and is extremely difficult to get the right BPM due to turning the valve by a hairs width causes a considerable change.

Anyway this week saw me get a refilled CO2 canister, with plans to switch at some point to a FE and appropriate regulator (with solenoid) to make my life less stressful. With the injection of CO2 saw more pearling on the plants than the liquid carbon.

Have also been more ruthless with the trimming.

Question:- Was thinking about putting a black background outside of the tank. Only the back of the tank and not the sides. Is there any impact to the fish health, light levels? Will it make the tank look nicer? Is it simple as going to an art and crafts shop and getting some black paper and short of blue tack coloured black what suggested ways are their to affix to the tank.

Over and out.
R


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## RolyMo

The other alternative to the black background was a boss background which I saw in this Tropica video. Pro's and cons to this?


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## ceg4048

Hi mate,
			Definitely go for it. Moss needs good flow and CO2 to fill in quickly, but other than that it will be a nice addition.

Cheers,


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## LondonDragon

I miss my moss wall!! have a look at my Never ending Journal, kept one for ages


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## RolyMo

I will start to plan a moss wall. I am guessing going to be quite a few pots of Tropica' Weeping Moss. Thanks for the positive go for it. 

With one of my Guppies being a bit of a bully but in the same guise looks like he is fin nipped, I decided to get some females on the scene. 

I bought 6 female guppies and 3 Ottos. The latter I have been looking at catfish for a while. Wasn't sure what to get Dory's, Plec's, Ottos or some other more exotic cat fish.

In the end the LFS advised Ottos for the algae and size. Only have 180l tank and thought the Plec's would grow bigger than the rest of the crew. 

A couple of weeks of injected CO2 appears to have brought the plants back to life, and growing faster than the liquid carbon.  

Over and out. 
R


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## RolyMo

Ceg4048.

You mention for moss it need good flow and CO2. For  a wall that is approx 53 wide with moss is that going to reduce flow and consume a lot more CO2?
R


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## Pinkmummy79

well there goes my early night, started reading this from start to finish totally engrosed!  Fantastic stuff and i've learnt more tonight than over the past week reading random posts.

I too must start a journal


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## RolyMo

Thanks Pinkmummy79. I am glad my humble journal has helped you as it did me. The advice from admins and knowledgeable people is very kind and helpful. What I am most appreciative is that people are still willing to step in and make the comments no matter how many times the question has been posed (usually CO2/Light/EI questions I have noticed). 

I viewed the journal initially as my own personal diary, just writing down what was happening in the tank. My tank is by no means a visual master piece but I still have living plants and fish which are fascinating to work out how to keep in check. So when people started commenting and helping on the science bit I was blown away by the generosity.

To me getting the science bit sorted and understanding what was going on was more important that having the amazing looking tank. Reasoning was that if I have the amazing designed tank but did not understand the science things could spiral out of control and ruin that look. Sure there are plenty that can do both.

Anyway short answer. Start a journal and lay it out there for everyone to see. Photos do appear to help people visualise the setup, especially if there are issues with the tank. The photo can quickly help people diagnose.
R


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## RolyMo

Happy Easter everyone. Hope you and yours are having a relaxing weekend.

Just thought I would update my journal after a few weeks of observation.

Ok I have issues. 


Approximately 50% of my carpet of Eleocharis sp. 'mini' has a dark green short hairy algae growing on it. I am wondering if I should ditch this and pull it up? The carpet of Hemianthus callitrichoides appears to be unaffected.

I am also seeing the same on the edges on of my Cryptocornyne and on the edges of Microsorum. 

Now, I am assuming it is down to not enough CO2. I have this internal conflict which my LFS said they do 1 bubble every 3 seconds. However I don't believe that to be correct in my tank as at that rate I dont see much pearling. My double DC shows green blue at that rate. I believe it to be more inline with 1-2bps and having the DDC at a green/yellow. 

So my plan of action is:-

Increase the frequency of water changes to 2 times a week (1 x 50% and 1 x 30-40%)
Increase the CO2 to be 2bps
Keep the EI dosing going as per normal.
Reduce the photo period from 6-4hrs
Trim back some of the larger leaves of the Microsorum
And watch what happens.

*Why the Algae?*
What has caused the issues I hear you ask? A combo of things I guessing.

Clearly from reading the posts and advice on this forum, algae is mostly linked to variable CO2, light and flow.

Flow
In my tank I am not sure about flow as the problem has taken 9 months to manifest from tank inception so if flow was an issue I would expect to have seen it earlier. Ok yes I am using the standard Juwel kit filter with an outlet and no spray bar etc.

Light
Occasionally the lights have come on without CO2 when people have been viewing the house (house move), or I have not turned the CO2 on before lights on.

Also I have had a few weeks where the water change has slipped to day 8-9

I will post a picture once lights come on later this evening.

R


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## RolyMo

Photos of algae.

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## stu_

Looks like the problem that i used to occasionally get in my Rio, reminds me of staghorn.
TBH the jewel outlet's aren't great at getting flow down to the substrate.
My other problem was that i got a lax with the filter maintenance, how often do you clean it out?
Not sure i've been much help, but at least the thread got bumped


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## RolyMo

Thanks Stu
Good point about the filter. I will add that to my weekly routine.  I assume you mean lifting out the filter holders and cleansing the inside of the housing?


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## Ravenswing

RolyMo, this is absolutely one of the best journals I have ever red. I just wish every-single-starting hobbyist would read this! You have done that what too many are afraid to do: ask help when having something weird or problematic going on. You have got plenty of awesome information and all of us could have seen how things change and how the tank progress from day to day achieving its balance. Sometimes by trial and error, but thats how we learn thou sometimes it IS frustrating. Good luck with your beautiful tank, greetings to your daughters (we have four kids aged 6-15 and they just love all kind of tanks and fish!) and keep going stong, mate! Oh, and thank you for sharing this, keep us updated!


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ravenswing. Although not in same league as the pro aquascapers on the forum, their journals serve as an inspiration for me. To learn the art of equilibrium in the tank and then put my mind to designing a proper aquascape.
At this point I am following the advice of Clive and using my eyes and no test kits to try and understand what is going on in the tank.
Thanks for the greetings for the daughters, they like the fish, but have lost the initial interest of feeding them regularly. That might have been something to do with me disallowing them to put "Glow in the dark" shells in the tank. But they still like to stare at the fish, look for the shrimp and count the snails. They also thoroughly enjoy the LFS, and seeing all the funnily looking fish. Problem is they keep wanting the marine fish, and have set expectations of 2 years before I get that!

Best of luck.
R


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## stu_

Weekly might not be needed.
For me, it's about keeping down the amount of organic waste that can accumulate.


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## RolyMo

Half term for the girls and I had the day off. Decided that we would take a trip to the LFS to look at a replacement guppy for daughter #1 who's white and yellow one died. Of course daughter #2 did not want to be left out and wanted a guppy. 

Was very amusing to see the assistant trying his best to get the exact fish that both daughters had identified that they must have and had already named.

I also managed to walk out with a couple of normal Rams. Not a fish I would have shot  for. But the assistant said they would be fine in my largely docile planted tank. Got 1 female and 1 male. 

Did the usual 1hr acclimatisation and left lights off for a couple of hours. 

They seemed to all be fine.
Pleased so far. 
R


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## RolyMo

By way of an update. I am still in the battle against the "Dark Green Algae". 
I have up'd the CO2 bubble count and to rule out any CO2 inconsistency I just leave the CO2 on 24hrs.
I have slightly angled the outlet from the built in filter down instead of up, but still to create a slight movement on the surface.
I have trimmed some of the affected leaves and trimmed down some of the non affect leaves as part of the weekly routine.
I have cleaned the insides of the filter, the outlet pipe and the plastic cage thing that holds the filter sponge.
I have switched chlorinators from Tetra Aquasafe to Seachem Prime and replaced the old Seachem Purigen (just incase the Tetra Aquasafe had rendered the Purigen useless, there is another posting about coating of chlorinators affecting Purigen) with new Purigen.
Lights are on from 18:00 to 22:00.
EI Dosing

I have just started to up the frequency of water changes to two a week. 1x 80% water change and 1x 30-40%.

On last nights 80% water change I decided to remove the Microsorum on the bogwood to easily trim the affected leaves and low and behold I noticed underneath a large area of (i'm guessing) waste, which had built up. Could this be contributing to water quality and thus algae issues.  

After removing the bogwood a shrimp of which I thought I had lost all of made itself appear. Most surprised. 1 lonely Armano shrimp.
So I hoovered up all the waste and thoroughly shook the other plants and hoovered up any other waste.
I will report back with any news if the algae abates.
R


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## ceg4048

Hi Rolymo,
				  This is a CO2 problem because I can see in the second photo that you're getting translucency in the leaves as well as the BBA (or what appears to be BBA although it could be staghorn).

If you are at the limit of your gas injection rate then you'll have to think about adding daily liquid carbon to supplement, but you need to remove the algae that is there.

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ceg4048.
Always a CO2 problem isn't it!! 
Ok I will up the rate a step by step.
In removing, you mean rub off in between fingers and/or remove the affect leaves?
Thanks for the tips.
R


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## ceg4048

Yep, I doubt it will rub off so the leaf has to be removed..

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

Touching wood. I appear to be battling against the Algae.

Having removed some of the leaves with the algae on, given the grass a trim, and 1 x 50%+ and 1 x <50% water changes per week and a slight increase in CO2 appears to be making a difference. 

Also making the switch to the Seachem Prime appears to make sure that the Seachem Purigen is working better than when using the Tetra Aquasafe, although how much is down to mentally telling myself that versus what I have seen over the past 3 weeks I am not sure.

I feel like I am coming out the other side of an interesting lesson in keeping all aspects of the water column is good condition. Although it is still nerve racking by not using any measurements when most people around are using measuring tools etc.

I did loose an Otto last week, but no other fish appear to be suffering so assuming it was bad luck on that particular Otto.


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## Ady34

Sounds good RolyMo, pleased your winning


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ady34
Went to a new LFS, ok not so local, a good 25 miles away in Romsey. Big centre, but lots of their tanks seemed to be suffering from a few algae problems. 

Anyway bought some Algae wafers for the shrimp and Ottos. Popped one in this evening and all the fish went nuts for it. For 1.5 hours it was a feeding frenzy. 

Thought the tablets would only be appetising for the shrimp and ottos. But oh no. 
R 


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## RolyMo




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## RolyMo

I had an interesting day today. 
I decided that with a recent pre-loaded credit card which I won in a quiz (nothing much $40) I would go to the lfs of any standard near me (still a 25min drive) and buy some new plants and replace some of the scraggy ones where the leaves were eaten and they had white tendrils trailing down from the stems.

In the end I thought I would try my hand at some advanced plants, and managed to get some Rotala Wallichii and some Rotala macrandra, both from the Tropica with range the latter in a 1-2-Grow pot.

Interestingly in a discussion with the LFS I explained that all had been going well for 6 months and then I appeared to get the dark green algae in the pictures above, and put it down to a mix of flow, fluctuating CO2. Explained that I thought the flow seemed ok CO2 was now stabilising and that I was doing was doing regular water changes. 50% and 20% every week.

The suggestion from the LFS was perhaps the nitrate levels were spiking can causing the dark green algae and that the water changes should only be 25%/week. Explained that I was doing my mix my own ferts, which they immediately thought was potential risk as if there was nitrate in mix that could have triggered algae

Their other suggestion was to potentially switch to RO water to help reduce the issues with nitrate etc. Which I have been interested in looking at due to the hard water in the Portsmouth area. But I could not quite get my head around the £3/week price tag of getting 25ltrs of RO water.

Anyway, bottom line I respect this particular lfs, they stock some lovely fish and have some great tanks and stock some of the nicer brands ADA etc. But it seems to go against what I was learning on this forum.

Very confused. So I pacified myself by planting the new plants tonight and will ponder the science of actually having Potassium Nitrate in my Macro EI solution versus the TPN+.
R


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## RolyMo

Before anyone comments, I have made a judgement call on the ferts I will continue the EI doing regime despite LFS saying NO3 and PO4 will trigger algae. I have just re read the algae article and am happy that it is proven not to trigger algae. 

R


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## ceg4048

You need to stop listening to LFS regarding plants. It's that simple.

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

Agreed


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## RolyMo

Wow Very excited!! (easily please when it comes to my first tank)

I, thanks to a member of UKAPS.org have finally got a FE with a TMC regulator and solenoid. I quickly ordered a digital timer switch same type that I have used for the lights (and has worked faultlessly for 9 months now) and plugged it all. 
I now have the timer switch on the CO2 coming on 2 hours before lights on and turning off 1hr after lights off.

Am delighted to see a constant bubble rate (phew)

At the time I have increased the lights on period from 5hrs to 6hrs.

I am determined to get rid of this dark green algae, and hopefully the steady CO2 supply can now be ruled out. 
I am trimming the leaves and some of the blades of grass etc (very tricky). Wondering if its better just to uproot the whole carpet.
So its down to flow and lights.

I have put a second magical orb filled with indicator fluid and am now measuring the colours around the tank each day to see if I am getting much change in colour at the same time of day.

Over the weeks I have noticed when hoovering the tank with the syphon, the Hemianthus callitrichoides ''Cuba'' seems to be loosing its anchoring to the substrate and in some cases is coming away. Great for some some of the Red cherry shrimp to hide in but causes holey patches in the carpet. Not sure what to do about that?


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## RolyMo

In the continuing fight against a bit of algae, I nipped out bought a replacement Anubias Nana. 

Bleached a scrubbed the stone that the old algae riddle Anubias was on, rinsed in boiling water and then soaked in a seachem prime bath.

I also added 3 SAE's to help the clean up crew fight the cause. That was a bit of a decision because I understand and got shown they grow quite large compared to the rest of the tank life. So we shall see eh!!!

Then gave the Elocharis sp. mini and the Hemianthus a good close shave to try and erradicate the areas of algae. Boy what a nightmare that is cleaning it all out. I stood there swished the net around trying catch the bits, takes ages. Hope the fish enjoyed all the movement.

Will now monitor the algae situation. 

I am seeing the newly put in Rotala Wallichii leaves slightly melting so have up'd the CO2 just a smidgen. Wonder if this is just the plant getting used the new environment?

Roland


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## oldbloke

Great journal, great informative replies.


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## RolyMo

Thanks oldbloke. 
I completely value the input and discussions on this forum and my journal.

I find the community really helpful. I do occasionally keep an eye on some others but I always post on here.

I feel a donation might be appropriate soon to pay back some of the great advice I have received.
R


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## oldbloke




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## RolyMo

Oh what a week.
Watching some of the new advanced plants slowly melting. . 

Took delivery of some Pink Ramshorns some Black MTS snails and some black worms. Lovely. 

Took a trip to the London Aquatic Center on Great Portland Street to stare at the sights. Nearly bought some fancy wood but resisted as it would look odd me turning up to a corp meeting in the city with some wood under my arm. Nice plants there too as well as some cool grade CRS. 

Took delivery of a new fancy glass diffuser with a twirly bubble counter inside and promptly broke it within 3 secs of trying to attach the CO2 pipe to it. 

Rushed out and bought a TMC diffuser (which did not break) and a new Hydor 3200lpr power thingy in a moment of weakness. 

Diffuser fitted. Its bloody huge and unsightly. Certainly not in the spirit of minimalist look. But I am hoping that it sorts out flow and ultimately the algae battle. 

Now need a bubble counter as my first diffuser was one of the cheap plastic funnel ones with built bubble counter. 

Running out of power sockets. Jeez

Roland


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## frothhelmet

Have to visit ADC _after_ your corporate meeting hehe. Was pretty cool to see those blue bolts eh?


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## RolyMo

@Frothhelmet, Yes it was cool to see them, but did not really appreciate what I had seen until I got home and looked them up. 

*Update this week.*

*Algae*
I have seen a definite turnaround in the tank in my fight against algae, which in the latter weeks had been causing despair.

The algae on the plants is dissipating significantly. Or more to the point, I have trimmed leaves and the carpeting plants, but the algae appears not be growing further on any plants. I have proved this by replacing the Anubias that was attached to a rock with a new Anubias and cleaning the rock. No visible algae is growing on the Anubias for 3-4 weeks now.

Other plants that were affected were the HC and the Elocharis. What I am seeing there are new blades are growing without algae. There are still existing blades and HC with the algae on but it is difficult to trim it all off, and then capture all the floating bits and thus that decaying and causing more issues.

*Loose HC*
Another issue is that the HC due to the algae outbreak (I am guessing) has weakened and is not anchored to the substrate securely any more and thus during my water changes when I am using the syphon to hoover up stuff from the substrate I hoover up clumps of HC. Some of it is algaefied and some are new shoots, but not much is secure. So I am half tempted to gently take out all of the HC and buy some new portions or another carpet plant (any suggestions) and start again to get a good firm fix to the substrate.

*Its all about the CO2, Flow, Light and food*
However the big positive is that I conclude it REALLY IS down to flow and CO2 and confidence (oh and light but I was not worried about that because it was set to 5hrs, and EI am not worried about). Having switched to a FE setup with solenoid which has provided a stabilised and constant level of CO2 to the water column each day. And despite the ugliness, the Hydor 3200 power thingy appears to be helping the flow and getting the CO2 injected water flowed around to the appropriate parts of the tank.

*A couple other things I did.*

Switched normal flake/granule fish food from Tetra Prima to New Life Spectrum Community Fish (as someone on the forum had suggested it was good and helped with better colour, not sure that is because it says so on the pot). Noticed the granules drop much quicker that the Prima which float for a good 10-20 secs before slowly dropping. The New life drop instantly.
DUN DUN DAH *I bought a test kit*, boy trying to find a the appropriate posh ones in the mini suitcases is impossible. Ok so why did I do it considering a certain well respected admin told me not to both and use my eyes. Well I noticed a couple of strands of what could be Hairy/Thread Algae on 1 plant. Very minor (I just grabbed it out with some tweezers) but looking at the algae guide one possible cause was ammonia spikes. So I blasted £35 on a API test Kit and I now conclude I should have listened to Clive and not bother. All tests showed no presence ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Plus it was a test kit that only did 5 test where as others for a couple more quid did 7 (including water hardness). But that is all they had in the LFS and online I could not find the kit form from anywhere trust worthy. So yes I have just wasted £35 and confirming what I was already guessing. I will now continue to believe in myself (and Clive and other admins) and use the force!!!
*Next actions this week*

Continue with twice weekly water changes (1 x 50% and 1 x 25%)
Increase light levels from 6hrs to 7hrs to see if I can save the Rotala Wallichii
Make a decision on the carpeting plants. To either restart the carpet with just 1 plant or still have 2 carpet types and rip out the problematic HC and start a new carpet.
Oh and prep for the house move. Current thinking is drain water down to a minimum, Fish in a bucket, rocks that can be removed are removed. Slide tank on to a plank of wood and then put into a van and whiz round to new house. The luxury I have is that I have a 2 week overlap of getting into the new place and moving out. And the property is 3min drive from old house.
 
Over and out.
R
PS I now want some posh shrimp!!


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## frothhelmet

RolyMo said:


> I now want some posh shrimp!!


 
famous last words...


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## RolyMo

So what is the algae on the second pic?
Note the loose HC
R

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## ceg4048

Does anyone realize that for £35, an entire case of Ogio Pinot Grigio can be had at Tesco...with change left over? This is a great Summer wine when chilled. Very refreshing, especially with white fish or chicken.





What a shocking criminal waste of 35 quid. Unbelievable....
Was it that guy at the LFS who invited you to throw your money away...the same guy who advised you to stop adding nutrients?

Remove the filamentous algae  by have and continue improvements to CO2 and flow distribution.



RolyMo said:


> Increase light levels from 6hrs to 7hrs to see if I can save the Rotala Wallichii


Again, this sounds like an LFS solution. We should know by now that  plant health problems are rarely solved by pummeling them with more light. R. wallichii only cares about CO2.

Cheers,


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## ian_m

Test kit or wine.....difficult decision...not too sure the plants and fish will like Ogio Pinot Grigio, so I will have to have it instead.


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## RolyMo

When you put it like that @ceg4048 it does bring clarity to the situation on test kits. Its just that I get asked every so often what are the levels in my tank and I have no clue and can only respond by saying "fish look happy, plants are getting better and my glass orb of wonder shows lime green at lights on". One shop (the one that has nice quality fish) wont sell me fish/shrimp unless I divvy up a water sample and it is tested. I think that in general its a nice practice and stops noobs like me buying fish straight after buying a tank set up etc. But I can imagine the test can be prone to error and you have a sorry punter, who has travelled 30mins to the shop, jam jar in hand, hoping to get some nice fish to come away empty handed because the jam jar was contaminated and gave a false reading.

So in the end I *added* to that day's expenditure and downed a bottle of white wine and lamented over the waste of £35 for some test tubes and funny little bottles containing unknown testing liquids!

I will increase the CO2 slightly and keep the light period to 6hrs.
Thanks for the illustrative lesson.
R


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## ceg4048

Hi Roly,
	 When people ask you what your levels are, just give them numbers that they like to hear and carry on. For people who don't know better their policy is fine, but you know better. If they need sample, just give them some declorinated tap water, or even some distilled water mixed with tap. Then get the fish they are selling.

It's child's play to defeat those traps.

Cheers,


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## RolyMo

Lol. Great idea. 
I will look like aqua god with water samples like that. 
Thanks @Ceg4048 for the tips. 
R

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## RolyMo

Phew
I did it. I moved the fish tank from old house to new. I am praying that there has been no long term damage.

*The process.*

I syphoned off most of the tank water
Tried to catch as many fish and shrimp as possible into a bucket. 
However went out of the room and came back to see a SAE lying on the floor, motionless. Quickly and gentle picked it and put it back in the bucket, where it moved and then sank to the bottom. I then put clingfilm over the backet.
Rocks and bogwood were taken out.
A friend and I then lifted the tank on the cabinet base out of the house to the back off a car which had the seats taken out (family car thingy).
The lifted the tank off the base and slid it into the boot. Perfect fit for a Zafira.
Reverse the process at the other end.
Tank water was pretty murky when we arrived at the other end.
I then proceeded to add water and declor, added the bucket of fish and left to clear.
 
I have come back to the new house this morning, and the water is clear and there appear to be no casualties.
Amazed

However I have just run out of CO2 on my first FE and now I need to find a replacement before my old emergency CO2 cannister with not solenoid and time runs out.
Always doing something.
R


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## Ady34

Did the SAE make it?
Pleased it went relitively trouble free for you, flamin c02...


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## RolyMo

Yes amazingly the SAE made it. However I did find a female guppy floating on the surface yesterday afternoon. And a collection of Cherry red shrimp hanging out in the filter.


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## Daz2162

Roland,

Hey man hows it going, Ive really enjoyed looking at your journal for the last few days, been a big eye opener for me.
Im reasonably new to planted tropical aquariums too (just over a year) and have really struggled to keep healthy looking plants, but over the last few months and since i came across this forum ive really learned a great deal, still not enough though for all my plants to be super healthy.

Its inspired me to write my own journal which im now in the process of. It will all be sort generalised for the last year and kept up to date as of today using yours as inspiration.

I think youve done really well with your tank seeing as its your first and id like to see a few more photos!!

keep up the good work.

Regards

Darren


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## RolyMo

Thanks for the post Darren
My tank is by no means the masterpiece that others have on this forum.

I have slowed on the posts recently because of the house move. But am now settling in, have a new ISP who is not as fast as my last house (feels like I am going back in time). So will update on the observations.

I did do a 75-80% water change today the first since the move where I emptied out 95% of the water. Interesting observation was that the tank was in pretty good nick. Most algae had dissipated (including the recent hair algae).
Sand had clearly moved about when moving the tank. this had uncovered some of the substrate underneath. Covered this back up.

The Rotala Wallichii is completely knackered and leafless so have pulled that out. I think that was a lesson on putting in an advanced plant and not providing sufficient CO2 and flow. This I believe is rectified, so I will be keep a monitor on everything else before getting some more advanced plants.

Just over a week since the move and no more casulties. 

Birthday soon, so I am thinking a presents family can purchase. 
After a year of doing water changes by the bucket, one feels a good present might be a pump to pump water from the sink to the tank and vice versa.

Also keen to get some wood, although the thought of soaking it in boiling water for 3 months is not appealling. Dragon stone perhaps?
Will post some more pictures soon.
R


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## Daz2162

No worries,  no i understand, but you've grasped everything so well and it looks lovely! 

Glad the move went well and there was no deaths in the family.  Yeah heaving buckets aroumd is hard work,  have a really good look on youtube,  there are many many many ways of doing water changes without buckets,  many of which are cheap diy's that work fantastically, have a good look mate. 

As for the wood,  it really does depend on the wood,  i bought some driftwood,  i boiled it for 2hrs, soaked it in normal tap water for 1 week the soaked it in dechlorinated water for a further week and job done!  It leak a little bit of tannins for a month or so  ut nothing major,  then i started using actvated carbon granules in filter bag and it soaked it all up,  spot on! The fish love the wood and it looks awesome,  also home to java fern and java moss! 

Cheers

Darren


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## ian_m

RolyMo said:


> Birthday soon, so I am thinking a presents family can purchase.
> After a year of doing water changes by the bucket, one feels a good present might be a pump to pump water from the sink to the tank and vice versa.


The JBL u750 pump eg Great deals on pumps and aquariums at zooplus: JBL ProFlow Universal Pump u750 takes a standard hose pipe pushed on its output and 16mm PVC pipe on its input. A couple of cm length of PVC pipe on its input allows it to pump the last remaining drops from the bottom of containers.

I have used it to pump "warmed" dechlorinated water from 40litre buckets in kitchen to tank in to the lounge. It is now used to pump syphoned tank water in a 40litre bucket, onto front lawn (grass by window looks GOOOOOD in this hot weather ). Not the fastest of pumps, but has enough head to pump from floor level to tank height, unlike a lot of cheaper Chinese pumps.

When I pumped from kitchen to tank I used a remote controlled mains socket so I could turn the pump off when the tank was full.


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## RolyMo




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## Daz2162

Looking good man,  your java fern look super healthy,  mine look bloody awful to be honest, keep getting alhar growing on the leaves. 
Just bought myself some hair grass to put in,  yours has taken really well as is looking good. 

Fair play mate,  its looking good.  How much co2 you pumping in at the moment and how you findng the ei ferts? 

Cheers 

Darren


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## Daz2162

Hahahahaha i meant algea not alhar!!


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## RolyMo

Hi Darren
Yes the Java fern has as you say over the last couple of months really thrived. 
As has the crypts which have started shooting up away from original location of where they were planted. Grass has recovered from the algae attack and is thriving, although I am loathed to trim as its such a ball ache to collect the grass clippings as I always miss some and feel I add to the organics issue which then improves the condition for algae. 

Really now thinking about altering the scape to have much more a visual appeal as I have proved to myself that I can keep some plants and fish alive. 

Hmmm 1 week holiday coming up. Need to think about how to dose EI and feed fish. 

Thanks for the suggestions on pumps and setups. Will research, as I got some BoE (Bank of England) vouchers (money) for my birthday. 
R


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## RolyMo

Oh and I forgot to mention that I think the combo of SAE, Pink Ramshorn snails, Ottos, and Amano Shrimp are probably helping with Algae as well. Hard to say.


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## Lindy

If you get wood  tie it to some slate or rock after boiling. I boil mine then soak for a couple of days, give it a scrub then tie it down.


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## Daz2162

Oh for sure, that combination is like sending russia into lichtenstein! Lol. Algae have no hope!  Just gave up my clown plec as he was ruining all my hard work.  Thinking of getting 2 or 3 ottos,  some kind of snail and a few more shrimp,  although my cherrys have just bred again,  (like bloody rabbits)  only had them a few months and this is the second batch of babies!  Haha. 

Cheers 

Darren


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## RolyMo

Daz2162 said:


> Oh for sure, that combination is like sending russia into lichtenstein! Lol. Algae have no hope! Just gave up my clown plec as he was ruining all my hard work. Thinking of getting 2 or 3 ottos, some kind of snail and a few more shrimp, although my cherrys have just bred again, (like bloody rabbits) only had them a few months and this is the second batch of babies! Haha.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Darren


 
That combo does seem to do the trick, but I am also checking to make sure I have dealt with the route cause.
The ottos are funny little things. I had 1 die early on, but I put that down to transport shock as I read somewhere they can be a little delicate at travel. They are also a nice size too, and don't seem to grow too much.
The Pink Ramshorns are great too.
I don't seem to have any shrimp breeding. The Amano's I don't expect to because you need them in salt water I understand.
The Cherries I have I hardly ever see. Supposed to have 10, but I see maybe 1 or 2.
R


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## RolyMo

Woo Hoo.
Dashed out and spent some of my birthday money on some additional plants.

Had a slight shopping list in my mind. Get some wood, get some stones, get some new plants. Auto feeder, leaves from shimps.

But when I got to the LFS, that all went to pot.

Ended up buying some new plants, the last 4 on my signature, and stone the crows I was allowed to buy some forna without a water test. Apparently I was mistaken. They only sell fish after a water test to people with a new tank...... grrrrrrrr. All this time. Oh well.

So I nearly bought some black tiger shrimp but in the end I could not face paying all that money to have something go wrong whilst I am learning. So in the end I bought some Tennessee Shiners, which looked very nice in the tank. Fast movers and were quite tricky to catch.

Oh and some tetra pellets for whilst I go on holiday. Could not justify the cost of the Juwel autofeeder. Nearly got persuaded to replace one of my T5 tubes with some Arcadia Plant pro tubes which I have no idea if they would perform better or not.
So in then end I did not go wild, and still have some money left for something else later on........... SHRIMP!!!!! 

Will post a picture of the Tenessee Shiners once they have aclimatised.

R


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## AshRolls

RolyMo said:


> Nearly got persuaded to replace one of my T5 tubes with some Arcadia Plant pro tubes which I have no idea if they would perform better or not.


 
AFAIK The Juwel T5 hoods don't fit standard T5 bulbs... Juwel have a slightly different sized bulb/fixture which locks you into only being able to buy from them.


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## Andy Thurston

Arcadia do juwel lengths too!


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## RolyMo

I am now confused.
I agree that Arcadia do a bulb that fits the Juwel T5 hood.
But is there any real benefit from me switching 1 or both of the Juwel kit bulbs to Arcadia ones? Wattage looks the same.
R


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## Andy Thurston

Replace it when it stops working, why spend money you dont have to?


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## RolyMo

Agreed Big Clown. Sensed LFS trying for some extra bucks.


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## Andy Thurston

If your plants are growing why change. I dont think t5 degrade as much as manufactures and lfs say. I've got a tube in my nano thats nearly 2 years old and the plants are ok. 
I think you could be right about lfs, they just dont know about planted tanks. mine used to be the same with me but they soon found out i know more than them and was quite happy to tell them. This might be your first aquarium but you've learned lots and now your starting to see the sales patter and poor advice in lfs. It wont be long before your giving them pointers and showing them your photos.


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## Rich Jackson

I think the changing of lamps stems from marines where it's recommended to change every year as lamp loses its intensity.


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## RolyMo

Thanks Rich
I can understand that. Do they really deteriorate? Mine seem fine at the moment, if not displaying fish colour like the LFS but I get they may have different lamps to highlight fish colour than for plants. 
R


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## RolyMo

A couple of poor pics from my iPhone of the Tennessee shiners 






Will dig out the DSLR when I have found it after the house move. 









But first I might sink a couple of these.


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## RolyMo

Uh oh. I did a bad thing
I ventured into ADC, London and bought some stuff. I knew I could not resist.

However I was convinced not to spank the money on the orange eyed blue shrimp, rather test out on some others. And I for some reason (probably weight) avoided the dragon stone.

So in the end I got the following:-

5 CRS - Not expensive grade ones. Just to see if they can deal with my tank
Some sumatra (I think) wood (best get soaking when I get home)
Some capatta leaves -  I thought they were food for the shrimp, but was told the main reason is to lower the PH.
A European guide on Specialist shrimps
I got given the old Tropica brochure, an ADA brochure and some shrimp food.
Very pleased with haul, apart from having to lug two ADC bags, plus my laptop bag with uber heavy laptop on the tube to catch the train home without whacking and spearing people with the wood and bashing the bag with the shrimp in.

When I get home I will immediately turn off lights and CO2 and start a use my makeshift drip method of introducing the tank water to the bag with the shrimp in (Use a kids Nurofen syringe to put 5ML doses of tank water in the bag every 10 mins for 1.5hrs)

Will also dump the wood in a plastic washing basket/beer ice bucket/new tank water syphon bucket (takes 4-5 normal sized buckets to fill this baby up. Guessing that I soak the wood in boiling water each day for 5 days?

Now to plot how I can finance a shrimp only tank cheaply! I am thinking of a relatively small tank that can be next to my bed sitting ontop my bedside "Tallboy". So the pump needs to be extremely quiet as I am a light sleeper. Want something that is less worrying than my high tech tank.

Will provide some more photos when I get to the camera.
Cheers
R


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## RolyMo

Pictures of the wood I got from ADC.
Which way though?








Oh and a pic of the shrimp mag I got.


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## RolyMo

Boiling me wood


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## RolyMo

The Tenesee Shiners












As promised some taken with my old DSLR.
Like the last one as it shows the nice colouration. Although not as red and shiny as in the LFS
R


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## Ady34

Hi Roly,
looking great, some super fish shots there, particularly like the vibrancy of both fish and plants in the first photo  Keeping Rams is also testament to your tank husbandry.
Saw those Tennessee shiners in my LFS too.
Could you tell me what the neon tetra looking fish is in the right of this photo please? Ive never seen one like that before and curious as to whether its an anomaly or an actual species? Im guessing species as you have several of them looking back at some of your other photos.



Cheerio,
Ady.


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## RolyMo

Hi Ady
Thank you for the comments. 
The neon is a Diamond head neon tetra. They were added very early on and have survived since. 

Not sure I understand the husbandry comments. Are Rams tricky to look after in some way? They certainly appear to enjoy the tank. 

Cheers
R


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## Ady34

RolyMo said:


> The neon is a Diamond head neon tetra.


Thanks for the info R 




RolyMo said:


> Not sure I understand the husbandry comments. Are Rams tricky to look after in some way? They certainly appear to enjoy the tank.


well like you say, maybe not tricky if your looking after your tank, they are known to be quite sensitive and require good water quality. Yours do look very happy 

Cheerio


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## RolyMo

Sorry Ady I did not mean for a short response last night, I was in bed falling asleep. 
I like the Diamond neons as they have sparkley spots on the front of their heads. However
They are not quite as majestic as the larger cardinals. 

Rams - ah I did not realise they can be sensitive to the water conditions. When I bought them to replace the red dwarf gourami the LFS said the type I was purchasing were the less boisterous of rams. Which so far is true. Apart from I have not seen any of the 5 CRS I put in the other day. Gulp. 
R


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## Ady34

Hey, no worries R 
Shrimp are pretty illusive so they could've just hidden. However rams I'm sure will pick off smaller shrimp, so hopefully not Gulp from them!
Cheerio
Ady


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## RolyMo

4 days in and wood is still floating in the bucket.


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## Fern

Hi Roly, your journal has quite simply for me, been the most interesting and informative journey of discovery into this absorbing hobby I have read. I'm sure the  members who have contributed solutions and encouragement for you have been an inspiration to many that are new to planted aquariums and fishkeeping, who aspire to have a happy healthy tank.
It can be frustrating when things don't quite go as one would expect, or even hope, but the pleasure we get when things work out is very rewarding.
Took a long time to read, but well worth it


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## RolyMo

Hi Fern
Sorry for the delay. BT have just fixed the Internet in the holiday apartment where i am staying so i can reply now.

Glad to hear you like the journal. 

I guess this is the side effect of me just jotting down what is happening my first tank. 

UKAPS is certainly a great forum. Really nice a responsive place and there always appear to be admins and senior contributors on hand to help most of the day. I signed up to a global shrimp forum and post in the welcome area and have not had a welcome yet (1week in). So clearly UKAPS much nicer place to hang. 

I think the big lesson for me is the whole CO2, circulation thing. Clearly the science of this needs to be understood very quickly and the relevant investment made. As once you understand this (along with the ferts) it is one less thing to worry about and you can watch your plants thrive and hopefully not the algae. 

Ceg4048's lessons along others have been invaluable and it is amazing to be able to interact with such intelligent people. Especially as they must get bored of noobs like me asking the same old questions.

For my next insane challenge I have just bought a second hand nano tank and once I get back plan to try my hand and the specialist shrimp. Hopefully using the knowledge built from my first tank. It will be scary as its smaller, will have sensitive shrimp and if something goes wrong I have no buffer of the larger volume of water as a safety net. 

I will keep a separate journal for this and keep you all posted. 

Thanks for the praises 
Roly


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## RolyMo

Back after 9 days holiday. Oh how I miss Cornwall, hitting the beach with the board.
Anyway.

Water change today, a good inspection of everything.
Fish all appeared to be alive. I have one missing Tennessee Shiner, but that went missing before I went away. And no trace, so I am guess the shrimp clean up crew were not very forgiving.
Most plants appeared to be fine, trimmed the ones that were a little tatty.
Fish were fed last night and they appeared to be very pleased with a granular food as apposed to the Tetra weekend capsules I put in for the week.
As for the impact of mixing and dumping the complete weeks worth of EI. I am not sure. I plant appeared to have leaf damage on about 5 leaves. Everything else appeared to be ok.
Tank, Filter and substrate cleaned throughly.

Wood is still floating in the bucket in the Garden. 3 weeks after purchase. I clearly have not put boiling water on every day. In fact the week away it just sat in cold. What is the impact of doing boiling water, is it just to remove tannins?
I did fill up the bucket with tap hot water.

Just now planning the shopping list and layout for the shrimp tank.

I am going to shoot for some ADA Amazonia as it seems a lot of German breeders use that.
I am thinking of moving 1 rock from the fish tank (has a Microsorum narrow growing on it) into the shrimp tank, thus making room for the wood when it eventually sinks. 
Wondering if I can transplant some of the Elocharis sp. 'mini' from the fish tank into the shrimp tank?

Oh did I mention I added 5 Rummy Nose Tetra's before holiday. They are cool funny fish. Love the colour and tail patterns. They also constantly shoal without fail. However its usually at the back of the tank or the front. From left to right, right to left and repeat again. Quite amusing. Reminds me of the goldfish 10 sec rule really. Guess they are not bored.

Over and out.
R


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## Lindy

You boil the wood to clean it and to reduce how much white mould you get once it's in your tank.


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## RolyMo

Cheers Lindy
How long before it sinks? Roughly?
Cheers
R


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## Lindy

I don't know as I always tie mine to slate now. Got fed up with wood moving every time I touched by accident, it ripped up plants and never went back to where is was.


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## RolyMo

Finally took the plunge and put my wood into the tank. Managed to weigh it down with 2 pieces of rock tied down with elastic bands. Very unsightly I know. Hopefully a few more weeks and the wood will stay and I can take them off.


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## RolyMo

Side on view of tank. Really like the wood from LAC.


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## Dan walton

Looking good


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## Lauris

Improvement.. Such a beautiful thing 



RolyMo said:


> *2nd Day*


 



RolyMo said:


>


 
looking good


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## RolyMo

Thanks Dan and Lauris
I will endeavour to update the journal this week. 
Regards
Roland.


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## RolyMo

Thought I would post an update on this journal as I have been focusing on the shrimp one for the past few weeks.  

The fish tank has been operating pretty much perfectly. 

I do feel that the Hydor power head is a bit powerful as the plant at the back is clearly growing to the right as the water current is a clockwise motion. I know this is not ideal as it should be a spray bar along the back facing forward and the current hitting the front and going down. 





The other news is my plant the Lindy sent me in the post is slowly growing nicely without any algae. 




R


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## Lindy

Your tank is looking great, very mature. The plant I sent is Hydrocotyle verticillata. It has grown really well.


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## RolyMo

Thanks Lindy. Mature is one word for it. It certainly has a mind of its own in what grows etc. But after all it was for me an experiment to see if I could create a planted tank, actually grow some plants, see which ones grew and and at what rates. For example my early attempts at HC were good then they deteriorated and I have to rip it out. But I believe it was all down to lack of flow and getting ample CO2 to that level of the tank. Reckon if I put HC in again I would not have the problem.
I think over the next 6 months I will look at a new scape, and put some thought into the actual layout itself and the plants that should go accordingly. Also would like to have the right type of plants from a particular part of the world and the relevant fish to go with it. 

As for Hydrocotyle Verticillata, it is a slow grower. At first I thought it wasn't going to grow at all, but it has grown, even at the bottom of the tank and I like the delicate leaves it produces.

Back in London tomorrow with some time to spare so as well as getting a haircut I think I will pop into ADC for a mooch around.
R


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## Otto72

After reading all of your Shrimp Tank Journal, I felt the need to have a nose into this one and it's just as informative!

Subscribed too!


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## RolyMo

Thanks Ottos72. Glad they mean something to someone!!


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## LondonDragon

This one is taking shape nicely  update time!!


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## RolyMo

LondonDragon said:


> This one is taking shape nicely  update time!!



Thank you sir.
Although it's not quite the designer aquascape I see from most people on the forum it has been fun to experiment with the plants, their growth rates and styles. Also seeing how the fish take to the new hidey holes. 

Especially interested seeing how the little cutting of Hydrocotyle Verticillata Plant Details that Lindy sent me is growing.








R


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## Andy Thurston

Belting tank rolymo. This was one of the first journals i read when i joined. Its great to see a complete novice start their first tank and a year and a half later you have a beautiful tank of healthy plants and a nice tank with sensitive  shrimp too
Well done


Andy

Andys 60l cube | UK Aquatic Plant Society
Andys HC propagator step by step | UK Aquatic Plant Society


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## RolyMo

Thanks Andy. All learnt from this great information rich forum.


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## Lindy

That hydrocotyle V is looking great. Tank looks fantastic.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## tim

Got an update for us rolymo ?


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## RolyMo

Hi Tim. I shall post tomorrow.


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## RolyMo

Clearly everything has grown. Some of it has taken over and thinned out the grass carpet. There is now huge amounts of places for the fish to hide. 

The wood still wants to float after nearly a year submerged. 

Going strong as is the fish tank. 

I have learnt a lot over the months. In leaving the cleaning routine and it's effects. And also lights out for periods of time due to no Co2 and it's effects. But I have managed to bring it back to order. Apart from it needs a good thinning out.


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## John S

Its come a long way. Looks great.


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## Lindy

Looks amazing!

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## tim

Really nice rolymo, needs a bit of scissor action  lovely healthy tank nonetheless.


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## RolyMo

Sorry for not posting in a while. Have been changing jobs and houses and concentrating on keeping the family together. But I thought I would post today a quick post as over the last 12 months I learnt some more stuff again using my eyes.
So I, as I imagine many let the tank go. I watched over time. The things I did that I believe were wrong were as follows:-

I got complacent about the weekly water changes. Live started to take over so that when it came to water change time I was busy or decided to defer it to the next day and then it was the working week.
I let the ferts regime slip. I would run out and could not be bothered to make some more up as it meant boiling some water and waiting until it had cooled and then measuring out the relevant doses etc
Fastidious cleaning of the tank. On the occasions I would change the water, I literally changed the water and changed the white flossy filter material. Maybe squeazed a sponge or two.
Stretched the feeding. Usually I do every other day. But might do 3 days etc.
When the FE ran out I would turn the lights off for a few days until I got the local FE supplier. Combined with point 2 with lights on no wonder plants suffered. 
So what did I observe when I cleansed my soul of laziness and came to my aquatic senses?

Well I did a major water change and clean 4 weeks ago and saw the effects of the above.

Fish were mostly all there but no sign of any Amano shrimp. Snails had gone. A couple of my daughters Platy's were no more.

Moss of which you can see in the previous picture had gone wild, had actually died underneath the green top layer. This causes lots of bio waste.

Any grass carpet I had was gone.

Lots of leaves with algae on.

GULP!!! Slapped myself in the face to jolt myself back into reality and into the hobby.


I pulled out both the big branch with the moss growing on it and another piece with java fern growing on it and was very sad to see so much build up of silt, much and stuff. Poor fish. (felt very guilty at this point)
I majorily trimmed back the plants, saved any bits of moss that I could.
I cleaned up the branches and tied back on remaining moss firmly to the main branch.
Then a major major water change. Sorry fish it was for your own good. Along with a major hoovering of the tank subtrate to clear up the silt and detriaus.
Cleaned the glass, internal pump inside and out.
Squeezed a number of the sponges and changed the Purigen for some fresh stuff.
Made up the Ferts
Took some fogbit from my shrimp tank which I had also let go and which was growing bigger than I have ever seen (growing out of the tank towards the light, amazing) and added that to my main tank.
2 weeks later and more major water changes, plants seem to be responding. Fish appear to be happier. The tank look crystal clear again. 
Last week I went to the LFS and treated my daughters to 3 Tuxedo Platy's and myself 4 Colbalt Blue Gourami's (staged over a week)

The buzz and hubbub in the tank is amazing. Fish swimming around lots, eating nicely. Anubias is sprouting new shoots, moss is slowly growing. 

Back on the road to recovery. 
So what did I learn. Simple
CO2, Ferts, Intense light, water changes and cleanliness are king. Get it wrong and the tank starts to suffer and you spiral out of control. Luckily I have this forum to thank for the help in understanding the rough basics and for having a 180l tank which I believe slowed down the effects of poor routine and maintenance.

Onwards and upwards. Might even get some rock and change the layout soon.

I will update my shrimp tank on the appropriate thread.
Cheers for reading.
R


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## Andy D

So where are the pictures!


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## RolyMo




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## RolyMo

Also just bought an Otterbox preserver case for my phone in prep for holiday by the beach and recording the girls body boarding in the sea. Thought I would test it out. First video was little shaky. I attached the phone to my daughters ruler with an elastic band and then lowered the phone into the tank. Next time I will slow down and move back from the fish. But you get the idea.


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## Lindy

Haha, that's funny. The fish were like, what the fuuuu...?


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## RolyMo

Have two incidents to report. One amusing one slightly less so.
This first one is related to the iPhone case I tested in the fish tank.
I promptly took it on holiday put the phone in it and had been using it for 3 days into the holiday.
Until one night after requesting my phone to be unplugged from the speaker in the holiday appartment and handed to me down at the pool where I was supervising the kids. I forgot to push the cap protectors in over the charger and headphone socket and promptly threw the phone into the pool for the kids to take some videos with. Within 1 min they handed it back citing it was no longer working, just in time for me to see the screen waterlogged and the display flicker and fade to black. 3 days of the phone in a bag of rice did not work and in the end I had to get a new one couriered to me. Thankfully I had enough wine to dull the senses and shock of killing my phone when it happened.

The second incident. I return from holiday to clean the tank out and do my 40-50% water change, I find a dead platy. ;-( Ok. Not good, but only one I was thankful for no more.
When I go to switch on the power to everything, I find the internal filter not working. Hmmmm Surely 2 years is not going to kill it. But who knows. Right now I am on the clock and I need to get it sorted otherwise the fish are going to suffer.
I make my excuses and dash down to the semi LFS to grab a new replacement Juwel Powerhead. To my amazement when the shop assistant reveals that perhaps I should look at taking the powerhead apart and clean it rather than buy another. I was stunned. 1 I did not know you could do that. 2 I was appreciative that he offered the advice. As I was about to push to buy an Eheim 340T on a credit card and rip the internal filter out all together. I still think my 3200 l/h powerhead is a bit too much for the fish to swim against.

I did however buy some new Juwel T5 lights as he advised that 2 years was a long wait to replace them. So I made a slight adjustment, I got the daylight bulb and a bulb which has a pinkish hue supposedly to help show the fish. This was instead of a white light. Said it would not really impact the plants that much. Hmmmmm 

Got home (fast) and took the powerhead apart and low and behold it is caked in dark limescale type grime, which is a bugger to shift. Managed to brush off most, and it leapt back into action. Phew.

I did my weekly water change and clean and the powerhead seems to be fine. frogbit is certainly growing lots. Fish are all happy.

So question
180l tank, If I ever was to replace the internal filter, what size ehiem Pro 3 should I get. Surely not the 1200XLT? Which has the rating of 1700l/h as the 350T is rated at 1050l/h?
Answers on a postcard.
TIA
Cheers
R


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## Andy D

Sorry to hear about the phone! I bet you don't do that again though! 

Nice to hear the assistant advised you on cleaning the powerhead. Juwel power heads do have a habit of failing after a couple of years (not sure about the newer Eco models) so it would be well worth purchasing one as a spare. I had a powerhead fail in my Rio 125 but fortunately I had a spare to hand.

Shame they mugged you afterwards with new bulbs.  

Did you keep the old bulbs? You can save them as spares. You don't really need to replace them unless they fail. The shop and manufacturer would like you too though to help them with their profit margin. The colour temp is also not an issue, just pick which ones you like.

In terms of filtration it is typically recommended to aim for a quoted turnover of 10x the tank volume so the 1700lph seems about right. The actual flow will be much less. If it does turn out to be too much then you can restrict the flow.


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## RolyMo

Hi Andy
Thanks for the ideas. 
No I did get rid of the old bulbs. I might be my imagination but the new bulbs do seem brighter. But then it might be the different colour bulb.
Cheers for confirmation of the x10 flow. Seems mad that I would need a top of the range eheim to get the right flow. But hey ho.
Cheers
R


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