# Easylife profito suitable?



## D1gg3r

Hi, I'm planning a complete strip down and rescape of my old low tech tank and am going hi tech. I never really used ferts regularly in my old tank. I will probably opt for EI dosing eventually having read the excellent article on this forum but have a new bottle of profito and wonder if it'll suffice in the mean time. 

The tank is a rio 240. I've upgraded the lighting from t8s to 2x 54w t5s with reflectors, will add CO2 injection and use a plant substrate. The plants I'm considering are some/all of the following:

Blyxa
Crypts (nevellii or wendtii)
Eleocharis parvulus
Mayaca fluviatilis 
Micranthemum micranthemoides
Hemianthus callitrichoides 
Staurogyne repens
Pogostemon erectus
Pogostemon helferi
Rotala rotundifloria

In short, after a bit of a ramble   , will the profito suffice or will I have to add something else as well?

Many thanks


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## Aquadream

Easy Life Profito will suffice not only in the mean time, but for all times. You may need to add some extra KNO3 and PO4, depend on plants and fish load.


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## niru

+1 on Aquadreams suggestion. Profito is a NPK fert. Dose appropriately for your tank. But with 240 litres and your plant choice, its gonna be expensive in long run. Another suggestion is to make EI doses, and add profito to supplement this until you settle on proper EI regime and dont feel pressure of right/wrong. 

cheers
niru


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## gargamelcz

It's hrad to say, if it will be sufficient because we don't know your water parameters. Maybe yes, maybe not. At least, I recomend you to buy NO3 a PO4 test kits (JBL if possible) and measure it. Try to keep your nitrate level 10-30 ppm and phosphate level 0,2-3 ppm and you'l be fine.


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## ceg4048

niru said:
			
		

> +1 on Aquadreams suggestion. Profito is a NPK fert...


This is not true. According to Easylife Home Page Profito does not have Nitrogen or Phosphorous, and they seem to be proud of that fact. If the OP's tap water contains adequate levels of NO3/PO4 then this is OK, but if not then he could easily be in trouble.



			
				gargamelcz said:
			
		

> I recomend you to buy NO3 a PO4 test kits (JBL if possible) and measure it. Try to keep your nitrate level 10-30 ppm and phosphate level 0,2-3 ppm and you'l be fine.


Buying test kits would be the worst mistake the OP can make.

Cheers,


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## Aquadream

Test kits would not do much good. Sufficient fish load would normally provide enough N and P. There may be need for some extra K.


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## D1gg3r

Thanks for the replies. It won't be stocked with fish initially until cycled as I'm going to run the filter from scratch, and keep my current fish stock in a holding tank.

I haven't tested my tap water where I currenty live, but only moved 8 miles so can't imagine it'll be that different. I've looked at our local water supplier which states the following:

14.84 dH

Copper  0.0 mg Cu/L  

Iron  11.3 ug Fe/L  

Manganese  1.0 ug Mn/L  

Nickel  2.0 ug Ni/L  

Nitrate  27.1 mg NO3/L  
No measurements on phosphate given. It's a rural area so with runoff from fields the water carries quite high NO3 at times due to agricultural ferts- it's been upto 50 before. I'm guessing the phosphate levels will be of a similar level.

I will move to EI eventually so I can better control what goes into the tank (and cost   ), I think easylife do a NPK additive as well, so may add this with the profito in the meantime?

I'm assuming that splitting the dose daily is best?


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## mvasingh

This is a quote fromt the Easy Life website about ProFito
*Advantages ProFito *
highly concentrated and complete universal fertilizer 
all nutrients in one product makes the extra addition of iron or potassium almost always superfluous 
for a strong, healthy and lush plant growth 
promotes the formation of cytokinines and thus cell division 
leaves grow wider, more intensive colour 
improves the quality of the aquarium water 
improves and maintains the biological balance in the aquarium 
multiple stabilized 
*free of nitrates and phosphates *very economical to use 
promotes cell division

Note the ''Free of nitrates and phosphates''
You would definately need to add NPK. You can get a huge amount of dry salts for the price of one 500ml bottle of Profito.

MIKE


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## gargamelcz

> Buying test kits would be the worst mistake the OP can make.



With all due respect, I don't think so. Why is that such a mistake?


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## tim

Because test kits are inaccurate profito IMO is one of those frets that works if your tap water has nitrates phosphates if not add them


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## ceg4048

That's right. Tim hit the nail on the head. None of the Nitrogen test kits are capable of returning valid numbers. No one actually knows what is being measure by a PO4 test kit. Those kits return nonsensical values. Furthermore one never needs to worry about keeping the NO3/PO4 values within a certain range because these are non-toxic ions. Therefore it is a waste of time and energy for anyone to get hooked on using these kits.

More information in the thread Accuracy of test kits?

A typical example of how absurd an NO3 test kit readings can be in the thread ferts causing high nitrate!

I can guarantee you that using test kits cannot help you to grow plants.

Cheers,


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## hinch

Clive,

While you're on about test kits. I have a kinda related question.  In the marine tank world PO4 testing is "quite important" and some reefers run posphate removers or reactors depending on if they need to add/remove it.  They're very fussy about it and bang on about getting the levels just right.  So the question is.  Are the marine PO4 test kits different from the freshwater ones ie: are they more accurate/more reliable or are they still just as useless as freshwater ones (bearing in mind the salifert ones are really really expensive too !)


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> In the marine tank world PO4 testing is "quite important" and some reefers run posphate removers or reactors depending on if they need to add/remove it. They're very fussy about it and bang on about getting the levels just right. So the question is. Are the marine PO4 test kits different from the freshwater ones ie: are they more accurate/more reliable or are they still just as useless as freshwater ones (bearing in mind the salifert ones are really really expensive too !)


Depends upon the test kits, you can get semi-quantitative colormetric kits that will accurately measure PO4--- levels down to single figure values, but I would be dubious that they will give accurate levels below about 5ppm. Hanna do an electronic meter, the HI-83203-02 that might give you more accurate readings for about £400 + reagent costs.

What you have to remember is that the situation is different in reef aquaria, where marine "plants" (Green (Chlorophyta) and Brown algae (Phaeophyta)) are unwanted, and Red algae (Rhodophyta) may be desirable if they are coralline algae, but often undesirable if they are foliose forms. You also have a lot of symbiotic relationships where the zooxanthellae in Cnidaria are frequently diatoms etc.  These organisms have evolved in very low phosphate environments and are very adapt at scavenging minute amounts from their environment, realistically an aquarium with "no PO4---" will always have enough phosphorus available for it to be non-limiting. You also have the issue that large scale water changes are more difficult in marine aquaria, mainly  because of the cost and availability of salt water.

If we ignore test kits and work on the premise that we want to remove PO4--- all together, it becomes a lot easier, because the majority of phosphorus compounds (with calcium (Ca), iron (Fe) etc) are insoluble. Phosphate stripping, (using ferrous ammonium sulphate heptahydrate ((NH4)2Fe(SO4)2·6H2O) as a precipitant), is widely used in the waste water industry and is very effective removing about 95% of the phosphate, or you can use a FeOH3 based phosphate remover like "Ultiphos" or "Phosban" etc in a phosphate reactor. Because you can't really test when the "Ultiphos" etc. is exhausted (back to the test kit problem), the easiest option is to keep on replacing it on a regular basis well before it is all reacted.

I had quite a long discussion with the seller of "Ultiphos" on the BCA forum, it does get a bit chemistry orientated, but it covers this area in some detail. <http://www.britishcichlid.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=7161&hilit=iron+phosphate> 

Personally I think most marine aquarists would be better of combining the reactor with an algal scrubber, or even better with a refugium with higher plants like Eel Grass _Zostera _ and Red Mangrove _Rhizophora mangle_, but for a lot of them my suspicion is that it is the high tech. expensive "shiny toys" they like.

cheers Darrel


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## hinch

hrmp thats interesting (going off in a complete tangent now I guess) 
At the moment my reef tank runs a refuge sump with cheto in one chamber with a wet/dry style wier over live rock to the final chamber with the return pumps.  I recently had abit of a die off session and the PO4 issue was raised by the LFS he suggested I run rowaphos in the overflow chamber I assumed because I was using a refuge that the cheto would handle it all for me.


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> At the moment my reef tank runs a refuge sump with cheto in one chamber with a wet/dry style wier over live rock to the final chamber with the return pumps


I've never kept any marines, but that sounds a good system. 


> I recently had abit of a die off session and the PO4 issue was raised by the LFS he suggested I run rowaphos in the overflow chamber


Adding Rowaphos/Ultiphos as well certainly won't do any harm, and gives you "belt and braces", so really it is down to whether you can justify the extra cost.

cheers Darrel


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## niru

ceg4048 said:
			
		

> niru said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1 on Aquadreams suggestion. Profito is a NPK fert...
> 
> 
> 
> This is not true. According to Easylife Home Page Profito does not have Nitrogen or Phosphorous, and they seem to be proud of that fact. If the OP's tap water contains adequate levels of NO3/PO4 then this is OK, but if not then he could easily be in trouble.
Click to expand...


Thanks Clive!! My mistake... I jumbled on this.. Used it once for micro ferts, and then got Easy life N & K ferts (which they sell separately). Mixed up on my reply..

cheers
niru


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## D1gg3r

Just seen that Easylife do additional Nitro and fosfo products so i'll dose these with the profito first. I'll then move to EI once I've used it up as it seems by far the most flexible approach and cheaper too


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## tim

Why not get your ei ferts and make your own nitrate phosphate mix until profito is used up will be cheaper mate sure someone could advise amounts to use


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## D1gg3r

Thank matey, much better idea than mine   Any particular place best to get them? Probably worth getting everything including dosing bottles I guess.


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## tim

Got mine through one of our sponsors http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fert ... r-kit.html


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## gargamelcz

> I can guarantee you that using test kits cannot help you to grow plants.


Thanks for your reply. I know, that it's possible to add teaspoons of KNO3 and KH2PO4 weekly to my tank and growth will be fantastic. On the other hand I don't want to have concentration of NO3 up to 50 ppm. Why? Maybe it's good for plants, but there are some fish in the tank too. I know, that high NO3 concentration can't cause problems immediately, but in a long term it's not good at all for livestock. All discus breeders try to cut nitrate levels as much as possible, because growth and healt of fish is far better. That's why I use NO3 test kits. I currently try to keep my nitrate levels around 30 ppm. Hobby test kits are more accurate than you think - unfortunatelly quite expensive (I tested JBL NO3 test and JBL PO4 test). I tested these tests, I used KNO3 to calibrate them and they were +- 10 ppm accurate. I don't care if there is 20 ppm or 30 ppm, it doesn't matter. Without these tests, I wouldn't be able to find out approximate nitrate level in my tank.


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## ceg4048

Hello,
        This is another illusion that folks misinterpret. There are no measurable long term negative effects of NO3 levels at 50ppm. NO3 production is the method in which natural systems detoxify. NO3 is actually the termination of a toxic sequence. The real toxicity in a discus tank, or in any tank, is the NH3 that it starts out as and the NO2 that it gets oxidized to. Those are the killers in the tank. Furthermore, the oxidation sequence NH3->NO2->NO3 requires oxygen, so this so-called nitrification cycle steals oxygen from the water.

The long term and short term damage to fauna in a tank is a direct result of the high toxicity of NH3 and NO2, plus the hypoxia caused by the bacteria's theft of oxygen from the water column in order to maintain this cycle. NO3 is merely the smoking gun.

Discus keepers force feed their fish with massive amounts of high protein foods. Protein is high in nitrogen. Uneaten foods, as well as the high urine and fecal production from the fish generate huge amounts of NH3. This is where the cycle starts. Large water changes are required to rid the tank of the buildup of the toxic substances. So they think they are getting rid of nasty nitrates but in actuality, they are ridding the tank of organic waste products which generate the nitrate.

When you add inorganic NO3 to the water, since NO3 is the end product of the nitrogen cycle, there is no further breakdown. There is no NH3 or NO2 production. Equally important, there is no oxygen theft from the water column. That is why 50ppm NO3 is completely safe, whether short term or long term. A CO2 injected tank suffers the same fate as those discus tanks. High production of organic waste from the plants themselves enlarges the NH3 production rates and so water changes in a CO2 tank is imperative, both for the sake of the fish as well as the plants.

The kits are not accurate. More importantly, they are not consistent. I will bet the farm that you do not have 30ppm NO3. The real number can be anything, and will probably be closer to 3 than to 30 if you have plants in the tank. You have never known what the nitrate level in your tank is. You have only been hypnotized by test kit vendors who have told you, without ever showing any evidence, that their kits return valid data. Calibrate your kit using distilled/RO water + known amounts of KNO3/KH2PO4 and reveal the illusion.

This is why people have all sorts of algae problems in their planted tank, because they depend 
on the kits to tell them what's in the water. The kit returns high readings like 20ppm or 30ppm when the number can be ten times lower. The plants starve, causing algal blooms and they never even consider adding NO3/PO4 because someone told them these are evil chemicals. So people buy all kinds of products EXCEPT the products that are the healthiest for the tank. NO3 and PO4 additions are crucial to the success of the plants in a CO2 tank and their addition results in better plant health as well as better oxygen production in the tank, which is vital for the health of your fish. I don't experience any long term or short term effects of high NO3/PO4. People only blame NO3 for their problems, again, without any evidence, simply because "some discus keepers" are afraid of it.

Cheers,
Cheers,


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I know, that it's possible to add teaspoons of KNO3 and KH2PO4 weekly to my tank and growth will be fantastic. On the other hand I don't want to have concentration of NO3 up to 50 ppm. Why? Maybe it's good for plants, but there are some fish in the tank too.


I practice nutrient depletion as well, because I'm convinced that using the "low BOD" concept and fertilising your plants to achieve the lowest sustainable growth rate, rather than the optimal growth rate, is a long term strategy that brings stability to the tank, and I want stability more than any other factor. There are more details here: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22824&hilit=bromeliad>

Having said that I'm pretty sure that Clive is correct, and that NO3- is the symptom of problems with biological filtration, rather than the problem itself.


> That's why I use NO3 test kits. I currently try to keep my nitrate levels around 30 ppm. Hobby test kits are more accurate than you think - unfortunatelly quite expensive (I tested JBL NO3 test and JBL PO4 test). I tested these tests, I used KNO3 to calibrate them and they were +- 10 ppm accurate.


Honestly they don't work, it would make life a lot easier if they did, but they don't. I know this because I have a lab full of analytical equipment, and a library full of scientific papers. It is almost impossible to get repeatable values from water samples. As you suggest you can get some form of repeatability from a KNO3 standard, using either colorimetric methods (cadmium reduction), Devarda's alloy or a selective ion electrode, but once you add in the other the compounds (humic acids etc) and anions (SO4--) etc. that occur in tank water it becomes much more difficult. You can measure total nitrogen with kjeldahl or a plasma AAS, but they aren't techniques that are available to many of us.

It is because of the lack of an accurate analytical method for NO3- etc that the Environment Agency developed the methodology of using a "5 day biochemical oxygen demand" (BOD), bio-assay with _Daphnia_ etc and a biotic index (RIVPACS etc) to characterise water quality in streams and lakes. <http://www.britishecologicalsociety...nts/ecological_issues/river_water_quality.pdf> & <http://www.dfid.gov.uk/r4d/PDF/Outputs/Water/R8161-Section5.pdf>

Despite what the various manufacturers and forum experts tell you, the only test kit or meter that you can just dip into a tank and get an accurate repeatable reading with is a conductivity meter.

cheers Darrel


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## D1gg3r

> Despite what the various manufacturers and forum experts tell you, the only test kit or meter that you can just dip into a tank and get an accurate repeatable reading with is a conductivity meter.



I'm guessing this is the method that water suppliers use to monitor the water they supply to us all?



			
				dw1305 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I practice nutrient depletion as well, because I'm convinced that using the "low BOD" concept and fertilising your plants to achieve the lowest sustainable growth rate, rather than the optimal growth rate, is a long term strategy that brings stability to the tank, and I want stability more than any other factor. There are more details here: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22824&hilit=bromeliad>



I take it that I can therefore adjust the amounts in EI dosing. For example taking the water company's base amount of NO3 and adding only enough KNO3 that is sufficient without lifting NO3 over 50mg/l. Incidently if levels higher than 50 mg/l of NO3 aren't necessarily an issue, why is this the legal upper limit for drinking water?


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## dw1305

Hi all,


> I'm guessing this is the method that water suppliers use to monitor the water they supply to us all?


No, they have dedicated analytical equipment in a dedicated analytical lab employing numerous technicians and analytical chemists, they also have a dedicated microbiology lab with similar staffing. 

You can get accurate readings for nearly all compounds, if you have the right kit, enough time and you know what you are looking for. This is particularly true for pesticides etc where you can only use an HPLC successfully if you have a library of pesticides, the right column and the appropriate mobile phase.

You can get all the methodology employed in the USA from the EPA <http://water.epa.gov/scitech/methods/cwa/index.cfm>, as in the USA any federally funded methodology has to be made available to the wider public. These are the compounds that Wessex Water can test for you: <http://www.wessexwater.co.uk/customers/twocol.aspx?id=1346>. 


> Incidently if levels higher than 50 mg/l of NO3 aren't necessarily an issue, why is this the legal upper limit for drinking water?


 It is the figure that was decided upon after hard negotiation in the EU, where in many countries the farming vote decides elections, interestingly the WHO suggested figure was 10ppm. The usual reason given is that in some cases excessive amounts, typically over 100ppm, may cause methaemoglobinaemia (blue baby syndrome) in bottle-fed infants. This is the "Potable water treatment" module from the OU. <http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=399252&section=4.8.1>.

cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048

D1gg3r said:
			
		

> ...I take it that I can therefore adjust the amounts in EI dosing. For example taking the water company's base amount of NO3 and adding only enough KNO3 that is sufficient without lifting NO3 over 50mg/l...


This is not a good idea and it is contrary to the EI methodology. The reason for this is that you do not really know what the level in your water is unless the municipality measure at your house and published those values. Secondly, having a given concentration in the water does not mean that the plants are actually seeing those values. If your flow or distribution is inadequate you will have problems later on. You should dose the suggested values for your size tank. We do not have to worry about toxicity or measure values. Dose the proper values and later, if you wish you can systematically reduce the dosing if you want to reduce the growth rates or if you wish to reduce the maintenance requirements.

Cheers,


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## D1gg3r

Thanks ceg4048, I'm going to get hold of some EI salts and run at the suggested dosing from the off. I think trying some hybrid approach with the profito is likely to get complicated and likely cause me issues. Might see if I can exchange the profito at my LFS for easycarb.


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