# Setting up.....



## Rachel Essex (27 Jun 2019)

.......hello, I'm in the process of getting my tank ready to set up. I have a few questions. I am not new to keeping aquariums but I want to do this the best way I can. 

Firstly I need to calculate the amount of substrate I need. It's a large tank, 122cm long 76cm front to back. Can anyone help with this, and recommend somewhere which sells Tropica at a good price. I fear it will be much expense! Oh, and nice sized bog wood/decorative wood.

Secondly do people run carbon and or UV??

Best filter media for my sump. I'm planning on foam/floss first compartment, followed by bio media of some sort in the middle compartment. What is best, I've not kept freshies for years! Third is for return and maybe best place for co2?? Is co2 best added inline with return? Heater will be in first compartment. Top next to sump. 

Also do most people use DI water plus tap.....50/50?? Aiming for slightly acid water. 

co2, is this best run with a ph controller?? Whats a good brand to go for?

If I could get any pointers on any of my questions in my head right now I'd be very appreciative .

Out of interest is anyone running Hydra 52's??

Thank you so much.


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## Kezzab (27 Jun 2019)

Hi, interesting tank dimensions.

Tropica soil is much the same price wherever ive seen it. If you wanted to save money you could use aquatic compost instead, but that will limit the style/type of scape you can create to some extent.

Vert few people run UV, and carbon just if and when required.

Sump bio media can be just about anything, from expensive stuff like siporax or seachem matrix to expanded clay pebbles from the garden centre (which i use). General view is it makes limited difference.

I put my co2 line directly into my return pump inlet, no diffuser of any type. The return pipe acts like a reactor and i get a fine mist.

Water depends on what you have in your tap. I have soft water and use it straight from the tap.

Some use a ph controller but i think its a minority on here. Solenoid is all you need. On 2hrs before lights on, off 1hr before lights off is the rule of thumb.

K


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## Zeus. (27 Jun 2019)

I use a pH controller but there is no need for one and the controllor does still yeild fluctuating pH 0.1pH.
Better to invest in a decent pH pen/probe IMO/IME.
Aim for a stable pH from lights till CO2 off. As for CO2 off time as Clive says after 4-5 hours your plants will have had their fill of CO2 and Light so consentrat on stable pH/[CO2] for that period.
Flow/turnover in a high tech tank is KING so most folk aim/advise a X10 tank size to filter/powerhead output. More critical in deep tanks with carpets


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## Jayefc1 (27 Jun 2019)

If your raising the back could save on soil by filling some tights with lava rock this will help with bio filtration too

I dont run either Carbon or UV in my filter a twinstar reactor in tank to help sterilization of the water and provide o2 carbon is believed to hold and deplete nutrients 

And I think aquarium gardens is the best place for hard scape if you cant get to them I'm sure if you give them a call they will help you


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## Simon Cole (27 Jun 2019)

I am using both the Tropica soil and the substrate, with a lot of aquatic compost underneath at the moment. No UV or activated carbon in my tanks. My favourite filter media is perlite. CO2 is best added to the return pipe. In Bucks I know that many people use DI water, but I don't bother - it depends on whether you need it I guess. I don't bother with a pH controller - that sounds like a fun idea, but I wouldn't need one.


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## Rachel Essex (28 Jun 2019)

Hi K,

Thank you so much for your reply. 

Yeh, I'm not keen on aquatic soil, would need capping and would cause issues I think .Just doesnt seem like a good option to me. 

Expanded clay pebbles? Are they garden media then? Sounds like a good option, thank you.

How do you add to the return? do you use a non return valve? 

We are hard water here, I need to mix a small bit up and see what I get but I only have high range PH kit atm! (x reefer)


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## Rachel Essex (28 Jun 2019)

Thanks for the replies guys. It all helps in getting it right and nice to hear little tricks. 

Yeh I do want to raise one corner up, so that's a good idea using lava rock, thanks. 

Simon, I'd like to keep more softer water loving plants and fish so DI and tap is probably going to be better for me.


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## Rachel Essex (28 Jun 2019)

Just had a quick look at Aquarium Gardens, perfect, just what I need, many thanks for that!


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## Kezzab (28 Jun 2019)

https://www.hydroculture.co.uk/clay-pebbles

In terms of the co2, i just jam the end of the tubing directly into the grill over the pump inlet. A bubble counter sort of works like a non return. Never had a problem.
K


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## Andrew Butler (28 Jun 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> x reefer


I thought so!

+1 on Aquarium gardens
How much substrate will depend on the kind of layout you have in mind (slopes etc)



Rachel Essex said:


> Hydra 52's


You might find you can tune the colours enough but they're probably a little blue still; maybe have a play with no substrate just some water and add a few plants in pots to see?
Having the depth (front to back) of 76cm is one of those measurements which is a bit of a pain - most lights cover footprints upto 60cm; unsure which way you have your Hydras around or the lens.
122 x 76cm (WxD) do you have height?

If you're really struck on keeping your setup there's nothing wrong with that by a long way but you might find it value for money long term looking at a new aquarium with more 'light friendly' dimensions and maybe even running a canister filter(s) as people say sumps are very unhealthy for CO2 consumption - a silly suggestion maybe but just one that popped into my head.

I do think sumps give you much more friendly looking tanks where you can hide stuff but unsure they're the right choice for high tech.

If you have an RO/DI unit, aren't on a water meter and are happy with the extra hassle then that's your choice but I don't think you will find too many people doing so without certain fish or shrimp. My water is really hard and I've not had problems as many people here do.

Running Carbon in a reactor will do no harm, I do in my filter although many people don't. Purigen is also a product looked at similar to carbon which you can recharge.
UV doesn't seem common place but there are people who do.

Filter media is a minefield, everyone having opinion and I think the short is anything will work.

Looking back it looks very negative what I've said but that's not my intention. 
Andrew


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## Jayefc1 (29 Jun 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> Just had a quick look at Aquarium Gardens, perfect, just what I need, many thanks for that!


In my experiences with them you wont get customer support or advice like it any where else in this country


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## Rachel Essex (29 Jun 2019)

Thanks so  much for all your replies! I really appreciate them. After calculating the amount of substrate I'll need I think I may go with a mix of substrates to reduce costs. I'm very committed to using the set up I have as it's a great space, but I do appreciate the difficulty in lighting and costs!

I have a freshwater spectrum set up suggested by a guy at DD, I'm going to try that and see what its like, but I may still sell my hydras and buy a purpose build light unit....whats good for a 4 footer? I feel I may be making a compromise trying to use the hydras when lighting is very important!

Height of tank is 61cm.


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## alto (29 Jun 2019)

Hydra’s looking fine on this tank 



Filipe Oliveira has set up several large Aquariums with the Hydra 52’s

and he’s at AG August 31 for Aquascaping Workshop 
I’m sure he would be happy to discuss light setup with you


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## alto (29 Jun 2019)

For substrate, use cheap fill material to raise height, then add Aquarium Soil only in areas where you intend to plant 
(you can add more later but it requires some planning & effort)

Use the larger particle AS for base, then top with the Powder version for easier planting and denser carpet  

You can also use substrate media such as Tropica Growth Substrate topped with suitable fine gravels
Tropica Inspiration Page has many examples of this style
https://tropica.com/en/inspiration/


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## alto (30 Jun 2019)

Depending on your location, also check out Riverwood Aquatics and Scaped Nature


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## Rachel Essex (30 Jun 2019)

alto said:


> Hydra’s looking fine on this tank
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ah, that is great to see! Would be interesting to know the light set up. Thank you


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## alto (30 Jun 2019)

I suggest contacting Aquaflora via their FB page as Filipe is “in the office” usually only one week in a month


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## Rachel Essex (1 Jul 2019)

Thank you Alto!


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## Andrew Butler (1 Jul 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> Thanks so much for all your replies! I really appreciate them. After calculating the amount of substrate I'll need I think I may go with a mix of substrates to reduce costs. I'm very committed to using the set up I have as it's a great space, but I do appreciate the difficulty in lighting and costs!
> 
> I have a freshwater spectrum set up suggested by a guy at DD, I'm going to try that and see what its like, but I may still sell my hydras and buy a purpose build light unit....whats good for a 4 footer? I feel I may be making a compromise trying to use the hydras when lighting is very important!
> 
> Height of tank is 61cm.


Some people just use inert gravels, lava rock or products like JBL volcano mineral to bulk space out, the latter not really being much cheaper but good if you want to add slopes.
You can put these types of product in media bags or some people use their Mrs' old tights I've seen. 
As for lighting if you can get the Hydras to work then great, nothing ventured and all that.
I imagine it's Tony or Stuart you spoke to and I'm sure one of them used Vegas on a planted aquarium a few years back so they should know.
If not and Filipe is then an answer from him is sure to help.
If they don't work out maybe look at Pacific Sun although you might find they need to be hybrids to get the width so add a few T5's on - they will make you a custom LED board if you tell them what colours you want as they do them in house.


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## Rachel Essex (1 Jul 2019)

Thanks Andrew. I'm planning a mixed substrate now, I have a good idea on the scape I want and bulking out will be a great help in achieving my goal! 
Yes, it was Tony, he's helped me no end in the past. Its ball park figures so if I could ever get in touch with Filipe and tweak them some more I'm pretty confident they will work. I'd rather stick with LEDS and not go back to T5's and the hassle of changing them etc! It's well worth a shot I think. 
Interesting that they make a custom boards. Thank you. 
lol's about the tights, I have used them often in the past, in filters etc - useful piece of kit IMO -  always had to buy them though as I am not a tights wearer


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## Andrew Butler (2 Jul 2019)

Andrew Butler said:


> some people use their Mrs' old tights


Ah if I'd taken heed of your user name I could have suggested your own but that would have been pointless anyway!


Rachel Essex said:


> I'd rather stick with LEDS and not go back to T5's


They say plants are not as sensitive to the lights as corals and therefore don't need changing every 6 months; wait for the arguments! It seems you're on top of things anyway.


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## Neilix (2 Jul 2019)

Recently finished building a Paludarium that a managed to seed and obtain a good covering of Glossostigma on the floor. All looked good until I filled with water, and within two days it all started to die. After doing some research I came to the conclusion that there wasn't enough CO2 in the water. This was confirmed when I tested the water and found the levels were less than 3%. Much less than the 20% that there should be. 

I than added a CO2 system in an attempt to bring the levels up, but nothing happened. I tried adding carbonated spring water to boast the levels. Which worked well, but within 24 hours they had dropped again to below 3%. This trick has now been repeated 4 times, but the spike in CO2 never lasts. 

I did some further research, and I now believe the problem is the clay pallets, that I used to infill the areas under the land. It seems that clay pallets are very efficient at removing and storing CO2 from water. Unfortunately for me, these clay pallets probably account for about 1/5 of the volume of water, so the amount of CO2 they can extract is far beyond what I could have imagined.

I am still hoping that at some point the clay pellets must reach a saturation level, and will stop absorbing all the CO2 that is being added. But this for me is a complete unknown. 

Has anybody else had a similar experience or knows more about the clay pallets in aquariums. 

I have even started adding liquid CO2, in the hope that this will help. Although this doesn't seem to register on the CO2 monitor. But that could be due to the fact that its a chemical substitution for CO2 and the monitor may not pick it up.


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## Andrew Butler (2 Jul 2019)

Hey @Neilix I see you're new to the forum so firstly welcome. 
I might suggest starting your own thread for this so it would make things a little less confusing for both yourself, @Rachel Essex and everybody else so there's not two separate topics on one thread.


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## Neilix (2 Jul 2019)

Point taken... saw a connection between using clay pellets in the substrate, and the problems I appear to be experiencing with CO2 levels.


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## Rachel Essex (4 Jul 2019)

Neilix said:


> Recently finished building a Paludarium that a managed to seed and obtain a good covering of Glossostigma on the floor. All looked good until I filled with water, and within two days it all started to die. After doing some research I came to the conclusion that there wasn't enough CO2 in the water. This was confirmed when I tested the water and found the levels were less than 3%. Much less than the 20% that there should be.
> 
> I than added a CO2 system in an attempt to bring the levels up, but nothing happened. I tried adding carbonated spring water to boast the levels. Which worked well, but within 24 hours they had dropped again to below 3%. This trick has now been repeated 4 times, but the spike in CO2 never lasts.
> 
> ...



This is very interesting. I shall avoid clay pellets then! I wasn't planning on using them anyway, but this is the best thing a bout forums, people shared experiences. 

Thanks Andrew, yes, I'm sure it wouldn't be so crucial to change the lamps so often! I do like the slight shimmer from the LEDS and the adjustability of them. They also look smart over the tank which is important to me. 

Does anyone thing I will need any extra flow in the tank? I have 2 outlets form the return but turn over will be fairly gentle so it won't cause much flow. 

Many thanks all!


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## alto (4 Jul 2019)

Neilix said:


> I tried adding carbonated spring water to boast the levels. Which worked well, but within 24 hours they had dropped again to below 3%.


This would be expected behaviour when adding carbonated water to an aquarium - even in absence of any clay pellets or other potentially CO2-hoarding-artefact ... without constant addition of CO2 to the water column, the dissolved CO2 in water will return to the passive diffusion level - and with  a water pump constantly turning over, this would be a relatively quick process




Neilix said:


> I than added a CO2 system in an attempt to bring the levels up, but nothing happened


What sort of system did you add?


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## Andrew Butler (4 Jul 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> Thanks Andrew, yes, I'm sure it wouldn't be so crucial to change the lamps so often! I do like the slight shimmer from the LEDS and the adjustability of them. They also look smart over the tank which is important to me.


The hybrid lights are LED and T5 so you get a bit of both, all controlled separately. 


Rachel Essex said:


> Does anyone thing I will need any extra flow in the tank? I have 2 outlets form the return but turn over will be fairly gentle so it won't cause much flow.


What turnover do you think you're getting? or What return pump are you using and on what setting; assuming it's controllable.
I do believe with sumps and planted aquariums it's best to have slow turnover and also maybe have the flow from the weir configured differently but I'm not the person to help you here; I think @Edvet might be a sump man?
There is a general rule of thumb that choosing a filter with 10x the volume of your aquarium is correct.
What did you use before to get flow around the tank?


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## Rachel Essex (4 Jul 2019)

Not really sure on the turn over tbh. I have a ecotech vectra L1 which is indeed controllable. It can push 11,500LPH but I used to run it just under half power, slow through the sump is always best. I guess I could use spray bars? I have 2 outlets either side of the central weir. 
 Obviously the reef needed super silly flow which was provided by x2 Ecotech Vortechs. I really don't think they'd be suitable for a freshwater tank - they are far too technical and need to be in a reef so I have sold them. If I need more flow in the DT then I'd look at getting a fairly simple pair of powerheads, but if I can get away without any I will as I don't want any equipment visible at all, but I do fear I will get dead spots. 

You can keep trying to persuade me to use different lights *lol but I'm gunna give the hydras my best shot  They look great and I'm sure they can be used for freshwater plants, once the spectrum is correctly set, there's not reason why they shouldn't surely!?


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## Andrew Butler (4 Jul 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> You can keep trying to persuade me to use different lights *lol but I'm gunna give the hydras my best shot


haha - I assure you I'm not trying to get you to change although it does read that way; I just wanted to explain they were a mix of the both.


Rachel Essex said:


> Not really sure on the turn over tbh. I have a ecotech vectra L1 which is indeed controllable. It can push 11,500LPH but I used to run it just under half power, slow through the sump is always best. I guess I could use spray bars? I have 2 outlets either side of the central weir.
> Obviously the reef needed super silly flow which was provided by x2 Ecotech Vortechs. I really don't think they'd be suitable for a freshwater tank - they are far too technical and need to be in a reef so I have sold them. If I need more flow in the DT then I'd look at getting a fairly simple pair of powerheads, but if I can get away without any I will as I don't want any equipment visible at all, but I do fear I will get dead spots.


I think spraybars are great but unsure if/where I read it but there was mention of them not working so well with weirs - someone might fill you in hopefully.
Also only having them underpowered might not make them effective.
Not having such a high turnover through your sump will mean you are probably going to want to find some flow from somewhere; I guess how depends on your proposed layout.
By that I mean whether you can try and add a couple of simple powerheads or maybe something like a Maxspect Gyre would be better suited underneath your outlets to create a circular flow like a spraybar but would take your CO2 with it at the same time so does 2 jobs in one.
I'm sure other people have thoughts


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## Rachel Essex (5 Jul 2019)

Yeh, this is my thinking too, I don't think they would be terribly good with the turn over, more a trickle than a spray! lol So basically my options would be Gyre like you mentioned, or two power heads in both rear corners....or one larger one at one end, the end that is against a wall so it creates a left to right flow which may well look more natural, but it would have to be quite strong to reach the full length of the tank, so 2 might be best. I only need a gently flow right? 

Andrew, you are in my area, do you use DI + tap?? I need to get a low range ph test kit and see what my DI + tap reads. I'm more concerned about the hardness as I assume most tap water is fairly neutral. I'd like to keep soft water loving plants and fish ideally. 

Thanks so much for your replies!


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## Edvet (5 Jul 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> slow through the sump is always best


Indeed!
Regarding sump and planted tanks: it's a bit of a mixed blessing. In a planted tank you don't realy need all that space to to give bacteria room, the planted tank houses plenty bacteria for your filtration (plants, roots, substrate). Also a sump can make maintaining CO2 levels hard, any drop in height can remove CO2 easily. On the other hand it will add to the volume of the tank and can house all kind of ugly hardware out of view.
My advice would be: pack it very lightly with media so there is plenty oxygen , basically no mechanical filtration (can clog and cause oxygen starvation), low flow if CO2 losses can't be avoided, try to trap CO2 in the sump if needed (taping the sump shut).
For flow i would prefer the gyre's over powerheads ( i used powerheads in my 400 gallon, not easy to get good flow)


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## alto (5 Jul 2019)

You might look at how Green Aqua has set up their 90cm x 90cm x 45cm high Aquariums

Sump aquarium
90cm Cube Planted Tank with Sump and Easy Aquatic Plant

Eheim canister aquarium 
Planted Tank with 360 View
(note there are links to previous video included in description)

Some of the videos show more technical & hardware details, though I can’t recall which is which unfortunately


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## Andrew Butler (5 Jul 2019)

Rachel Essex said:


> Andrew, you are in my area, do you use DI + tap?? I need to get a low range ph test kit and see what my DI + tap reads. I'm more concerned about the hardness as I assume most tap water is fairly neutral. I'd like to keep soft water loving plants and fish ideally.


I just use plain tap water like most people do, despite the hard water - my TDS is sky high.
If you're thinking about fish then that's a bit different so I'd see about the parameters the supplier has.
Plants, I'm not so sure there are too many that won't adapt or have an alternative similar in appearance etc that doesn't require the water being anything put plain old tap.
Something to think about and maybe put a list of plants and fish up for others to give you their opinions. 



Rachel Essex said:


> Yeh, this is my thinking too, I don't think they would be terribly good with the turn over, more a trickle than a spray! lol So basically my options would be Gyre like you mentioned, or two power heads in both rear corners....or one larger one at one end, the end that is against a wall so it creates a left to right flow which may well look more natural, but it would have to be quite strong to reach the full length of the tank, so 2 might be best. I only need a gently flow right?


I do think that the Gyre's are great and @Zeus. will tell you how they can really work to create a vortex (think that's the right word) in a planted aquarium.
Maybe one positioned either end; run one forwards the other one backwards. You will find your happy power, timing etc combinations and I agree first hand that they are far better than a powerhead which has a more direct flow direction.
As for gentle flow; that depend on the plants you have, layout and to some degree the fish amongst other things I'm sure.


Edvet said:


> For flow i would prefer the gyre's over powerheads ( i used powerheads in my 400 gallon, not easy to get good flow)


+1
I would avoid the Jebao copy of the Maxspect Gyre as it is just not anything like the quality etc.


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## Rachel Essex (5 Jul 2019)

Edvet said:


> Indeed!
> Regarding sump and planted tanks: it's a bit of a mixed blessing. In a planted tank you don't realy need all that space to to give bacteria room, the planted tank houses plenty bacteria for your filtration (plants, roots, substrate). Also a sump can make maintaining CO2 levels hard, any drop in height can remove CO2 easily. On the other hand it will add to the volume of the tank and can house all kind of ugly hardware out of view.
> My advice would be: pack it very lightly with media so there is plenty oxygen , basically no mechanical filtration (can clog and cause oxygen starvation), low flow if CO2 losses can't be avoided, try to trap CO2 in the sump if needed (taping the sump shut).
> For flow i would prefer the gyre's over powerheads ( i used powerheads in my 400 gallon, not easy to get good flow)



Hi Edvet. Many thanks for your reply. It's good to know I shouldn't need too much filter media. What would you recommend I use in the sump? Just some sort of biological media? I have three sections to my sump. Obviously last one is just for the return pump. Should I just us the second one as any sort of biological filter? 
When you say trap co2 in the sump what do you mean? Doesn't it need to be in the DT more? My plan was to add co2 into the return inlet so it passes into the DT. Would this be the best place? 

Thanks for the advice on water Andrew. Will be much simpler to use just tap water I have to say....and save me flooding the utility room....again!! lol Maybe I will go down that route after all. 

As for co2 how much should I expect to get through? I used to run a calcium reactor and got my co2 from a friendly pub owner. What are my options here?

Sorry, so many questions! I'm planning a trip to Aquarium Gardens tomorrow, to see their display tanks, have a chat and build up a shopping list. Hoping to come away with some "stuff" so I can start scaping


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## Edvet (6 Jul 2019)

Just use easy to clean stuff, i use some foam pieces i rinse out every now and then, no need to invest in expensive stuff, a bacterial layer will form on all hardware ( up to easy pottscrubbs



 
Trapping CO2 in the sump can be done by taping it shut, CO2 escapes through exitation of the surface ( dropping from any distance)and taping the sump keeps CO2 there so it can dissolve back into the water (not that effective though). (Don''t  exactly know what you mean with DT)
Personally i had my best succes with using CO2 in lowe dose 24/7 and adding it to the outflow from the sump. Use lightlevels according to the CO2 level ( lower then full blast CO2) andi had great plantgrowth


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## Rachel Essex (6 Jul 2019)

Thank you. DT - display tank. 
Taping it shut, do you mean having the sump covered??


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## Edvet (7 Jul 2019)

Aye, glas cover taped to close the gaps.
Or deal with the loss of CO2, depens on levels, flow and loss levels. As i said i used lower level, 24/7 dosing in a large tank with succes. I lost CO2 through the sump but my tank could handle it combined with lower light levels. When i went higher light and higher dose CO2, which used far more CO2, i used powerheads (increased tank flow) and slowed the flow through the sump.


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## Zeus. (7 Jul 2019)

Edvet said:


> As i said i used lower level, 24/7 dosing in a large tank with succes.



What pH drop was you running the tank at Ed ?


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## Edvet (7 Jul 2019)

Never measured the drop.I used around 3-4 bps and used  a few methods. A long ( 50 cm) glas spiral diffusor and i had it entering a the top large standing  pvc pipe where my sump water entered the tank (flow went against the rising bubbles). My goal was just to dissolve all CO2 i used. I had very soft water (continuous RO dripping in the tank at 90 lit/day) and added some ferts, but fed the fish a lot.


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