# Activated carbon vs algae



## Soilwork (1 Mar 2016)

I keep reading about algae triggers that are created when organics are broken down.  Perhaps a chemical chain reaction that induces algae.

Would activated carbon remove these chemicals and combat the formation of algae?


----------



## ian_m (1 Mar 2016)

Ammonia from rotting detritus will also cause algae but will not be removed by carbon.


----------



## Soilwork (1 Mar 2016)

Yes interesting point.  I get algae growing on my gravel.  Me he gravel is capping dirt.  When I uproot plants a dirt cloud forms and settles on the gravel.  Do you think this is what is causing the small carpet of algae?  The small carpet of algae is also in growing in the open areas where plants are not shading it.  It went away when I was dosing easycarbo but now inject co2 instead.  It has slowly reappeared.


----------



## EdwinK (2 Mar 2016)

Water change after uprooting plants should help a lot. Additional dose of oxygen helps bacteria to brake down organics.


----------



## Soilwork (2 Mar 2016)

Thanks I did do 50% and I'll bare that in mind.


----------



## zozo (3 Mar 2016)

Soilwork said:


> Would activated carbon remove these chemicals and combat the formation of algae?



No it does not , alledged their was a time where was oftenly stated active carbon will remove some chelated fertilizers. Which cause again a shortage which could induce algae growth because of that. But this old information seems to be debunked in these modern days and seems to be not the case. Activated carbon does not remove things from the water which prevent plants and or algea from growing.

Their are always several added scenarios which are the cause of certain algae to appear, activated carbon in a sence could contribute to ellimitad a related factor to the cause but it does not filter out any particular chemicals which are exclusive algae triggers. For example if you have a tank with low light which water is sevarely stained with tanines then the bad light penetration into the water could prevent plants from receiving it and will not grow fast enough and could induce a certain algae to appear more easily. Then using easy carbon to clear out the tanines, so more light will penetrate, could contribute to battle this. That's as far as i know the only possible (maybe even far fetched) possitive side to activated carbon where it could contribute with fighting certain kind of algea.


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

I may need to be more clear.  I have read comments by members on here who hypothesise that when plants begin to decay, the bacterial breakdown processes may release almost hormonal organic chemicals that algae my sense and trigger a bloom so not necessarily chemicals such as ferts. 

Thanks


----------



## ian_m (3 Mar 2016)

Soilwork said:


> I have read comments by members on here who hypothesise that when plants begin to decay, the bacterial breakdown processes may release almost hormonal organic chemicals that algae my sense and trigger a bloom so not necessarily chemicals such as ferts


Not an hypothesis, but a fact, as can be seen that the leaves of dying/suffering plants very quickly get covered in algae, regardless of phosphate or nitrate or light level levels.


----------



## xim (3 Mar 2016)

Soilwork said:


> Would activated carbon remove these chemicals and combat the formation of algae?



Tried that. I mean I "really" tried that by buying an Eheim 2213 and bottles of Seachem Matrix Carbon
only for this purpose. It failed, waste of money. The water was crystal clear with algae that looked 
as happy as ever.


----------



## zozo (3 Mar 2016)

That's not even true with algea but also with moss, which also grows on decaying plant matter, like you see in bellow picture where moss is growing on a dried out leaf tip from an echinodorus which is sticking out the water.


 

Algae and mosses, do not root nor need roots like plants do which are higher up the evolution chain. But still they both are plants even they are in primitive form, never had the need to develop roots. And because they are lower plant life forms with a less advanced biological systems, they need much less perfect circumstances to grow and thrive. So if the conditions are to less for a higher plant, algae can still grow like a champ, but both plants as well as algae need the same basic chemicals to grow, algae only much less and in much less balanced combinations. So if a plant is suffering from shortage and there for dying, it's still yummy yummy for algae. 

Now you say chemicals and not nessecary ferts, bottom line is is all ferts are chemical elements, even the vitamines. hormones etc are made out of several chemical elements which all can be classified as ferts if they are beneficial to plantgrowth. Decaying plant matter is in fact a base material to function again as ferts because it is already build from the same blocks to begin with, it only needs to converted back to usefull elements so it can be used again. That's happening via a biological process with the help of bacteria. This bacteria eats dead plant material and poop out ferts (chemicals, vitamins and hormones) If an algae spore lands in this bacteria poop it's again yummy time for the algae and it grows on the dying plant leaves. The more dying plant leaves you have the more of this poop is available for algae to grow. Now since the plant leaves are dying there ost be something wrong with the chemical balance in the tank, plants are dying algae are growing.  So we must find out why and turn this process arround, their must be something a mis which plants need more of and algae not. If we get the whole process back on track where plant start to grow and get healthy again, it will eventualy eat it's own dead leaves (bacterial poop) itself again. Their alway will be algae around to profit also from that, but it's our aim to favor the plants more than the algae. Maximum plantgrowth, minimum algae growth.

Activated carbon filters out compounts which are not in the element chart which are usefull for plants or algae.. After all they are both from the same family and need the same stuff. If carbon did it would be useless to us.


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

ian_m said:


> Not an hypothesis, but a fact, as can be seen that the leaves of dying/suffering plants very quickly get covered in algae, regardless of phosphate or nitrate or light level levels.



Ok I wasn't sure.  Didn't want to be attacked asking for scientific evidence of this and since I also saw no scientific evidence that this is the exact reason algae grows in the threads I am referring to either I thought it would be better to use the word hypothesis at this point.  I know algae grows on leaves I have seen it myself.


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

xim said:


> Tried that. I mean I "really" tried that by buying an Eheim 2213 and bottles of Seachem Matrix Carbon
> only for this purpose. It failed, waste of money. The water was crystal clear with algae that looked
> as happy as ever.



Thanks.  Do you think it is possible the carbon may have been removing such chemicals but the causal if the algae was more overwhelming than could have been aided by carbon?


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

zozo said:


> That's not even true with algea but also with moss, which also grows on decaying plant matter, like you see in bellow picture where moss is growing on a dried out leaf tip from an echinodorus which is sticking out the water.
> View attachment 81276
> 
> Algae and mosses, do not root nor need roots like plants do which are higher up the evolution chain. But still they both are plants even they are in primitive form, never had the need to develop roots. And because they are lower plant life forms with a less advanced biological systems, they need much less perfect circumstances to grow and thrive. So if the conditions are to less for a higher plant, algae can still grow like a champ, but both plants as well as algae need the same basic chemicals to grow, algae only much less and in much less balanced combinations. So if a plant is suffering from shortage and there for dying, it's still yummy yummy for algae.
> ...



Thanks, I really do get all of this and agree with the logic.  I simply tried to seperate ferts and hormones in case you thought I meant nutrients in the form we dry dose are tanks.  I don't won't you to think that I think excess nutrients directly cause algae.  I've heard many times that activated carbon removed 'dissolved organics' so was wondering if the chemicals released by bacteria poop would be removed by carbon.

Sorry I couldn't grasp your last paragraph.


----------



## xim (3 Mar 2016)

Soilwork said:


> Thanks.  Do you think it is possible the carbon may have been removing such chemicals but the causal if the algae was more overwhelming than could have been aided by carbon?



Asking "is it possible" in a situation we don't know all the factors is always resulted in "it is possible".


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

xim said:


> Asking "is it possible" in a situation we don't know all the factors is always resulted in "it is possible".



That is true. You just seemed so sure it was a failure and waste of money.


----------



## xim (3 Mar 2016)

Why wasn't it a waste of money when that couldn't solve my problem?
I should not have participated in this thread.


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

My question was are the organic chemicals released via decomposition by bacteria, chemicals that activated carbon readily take up. And in the event  that it does could carbon be used as a compliment to water changes to help remove these chemicals from the water column and thus combat algae. You said no because you did an experiment and it didn't work for you. Fair enough, I ask do you think it is possible that it does work but not in your case and u get a ridiculous philosophical answers about possibilities.  Your right you shouldn't have participated.


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

By the way, just so we are on the same page, I am referring to this thread on this forum which lists some of the things carbon readily takes up are dissolved organic compounds, phenols etc. 

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/does-carbon-remove-trace-elements.6980/#post-77856


----------



## zozo (3 Mar 2016)

Soilwork said:


> dissolved organic compounds


Which can be many things, but probably not things which are ready for use to plants and algea. For Example  The colors it removes, as stated in your linked post are most likely pointed to tannins, staining the water in a tea color. Those tannins are disolved organic compounds leaching from wood or from decaying leaves. These organic compounts if not removed probably in the end will be broken down to others, usefull or not. But thats not the point, the point is it staines our water and if you don't like that you could use a product like activated carbon to filter it out.

Phenols, make your tank stink like a swamp or a sewage in the worst case.. They are organic compounts ending up in your nose due to leaving the tank. But the organics in the tank realising this parfum also gets filtered out with carbon. So if you smell your tank and you don't like it you know what to use.

A very simple example coffee is an dissolved organic compound. But this dissolved is a bit missleading word.. Tho dissolved it still is an seperate molucule by it self floating around in the water you made your coffee with. You know how instant coffee is made?? They brew a nice pot of coffee the regular way like we do it each morning.. The cup off coffee they get from that is heated under presure above 100 celcius. Then is is released in a hot dry chamber as steam. Where the water eveporates and to the chamber walls a residue of brown powder stays behind. That's collected and sold as instant coffee.

A kind of powder like this is the organic compound coloring you tank water and we cal it tannins, activated carbon takes it out.


----------



## Soilwork (3 Mar 2016)

zozo said:


> Which can be many things, but probably not things which are ready for use to plants and algea. For Example  The colors it removes, as stated in your linked post are most likely pointed to tannins, staining the water in a tea color. Those tannins are disolved organic compounds leaching from wood or from decaying leaves. These organic compounts if not removed probably in the end will be broken down to others, usefull or not. But thats not the point, the point is it staines our water and if you don't like that you could use a product like activated carbon to filter it out.
> 
> Phenols, make your tank stink like a swamp or a sewage in the worst case.. They are organic compounts ending up in your nose due to leaving the tank. But the organics in the tank realising this parfum also gets filtered out with carbon. So if you smell your tank and you don't like it you know what to use.
> 
> ...



Thanks I understand what you are saying, the link is vary vague in its approach.  For example, it specifically lists things such as phenols, alcohols, tannins then just gives a vary broad yet vague 'dissolved organic compounds' other links just refer to them as 'dissolved organic substances' as if there are too many to list or they don't really know what they are.  What about allelochemicals? Are they classed as dissolved organic compounds?  Diana Walstad says that these would be removed via activated carbon. She provides 3 tables full of different allelochemicals.  Are these classes as dissolved organic compounds? If so, and activated carbon removes them then what else does it remove? 

This is a statement made in a thread by ceg4048 

" So when plants are healthy and growing the spores, sampling the environment would detect low or otherwise stable ammonia levels, adequate CO2 and O2 levels, or perhaps would not sense an ammonia gradient across a plant leaf, or, it might even be that the combination of organic products leaching from the plant may have a certain characteristic identifiable as healthy export."

This is where I am basing my question. If it is true that algae can 'sense' combinations of organic products leaching from the plant (the same way plants release allelochemicals?) that can trigger a spore to bloom then is it wrong of me to think that charcoal would not remove these also? 

I am only asking, I have good logic based on what I have read to assume that it would and I am merely presenting that information to you.  I am not saying you are wrong.  Would just like to know if this could be an extra benefit of carbon.  Walstad even describes a scenario in which she actively uses charcoal to defeat green water algae.


----------



## zozo (4 Mar 2016)

I guess or matter a fact for me personaly it's not about beeing right or wrong.. Any filter can and does help to filter out algae parts and spores from the water, carbon might contribute to that because it has a very high microscopic porosity and holds particles of a size which pass through a sponge filter. Carbon might help filter out green algae from the water collum and probably a sand filter will do as good. But it does not filter out the cause why the algae is establashing in the water. Without adressing the cause and only make use of a filter would be a vicious circle of constantly growing it and taking it out again.. What's the point of that??

If the cause of having algae is a excess of having to much of certain elements which are classified as macros and or micros we use for feeding the plants, then the answer to your initial question is no, carbon does "not filter out these elemnets very good". So if you look up how activvated carbon works and how it is used in other industries you'll find references and lab reports about what binds to carbon and what not.. For the most part is is stated "Doesn't bind very good to". It does bind some, but not in such a way that it is measurable with a negative effect to the plants or algae we grow with it..

Allelopathy is a process of which we know very little about when it comes to measuring it. Tho we can observe it with known plants which do this rather obviously even in our garden if we like. Not only plants do it also algae does produce allelochemicals to benefit it's own survival. Even some animals have those kind of capabilities.. I also played with the idea that this maybe occures more often in our tanks then we might think. And probably could be a game of numbers and could be a cause why certain plants do not well together in the same environment.

I realy do not know enough about allelopathy to say in how far it plays a role in what happens in our tanks.. And also no idea if active carbon has any effect on it. But i have one tank i stacked with over 20 different plant species together and had plants in there which for what ever reaso just didn't want to grow, Allelopathy?? Thought of it, but dunno. If it was, the active carbon i filter with didn't do sh#t about it and they died anyway..


----------



## Soilwork (4 Mar 2016)

Thanks again.  Please note I am not interested in carbon removing macro and micro nutrients as they are commonly thought of in this hobby.  I'm strictly talking dissolved organics.  I'll have to look in more detail at those reports (if I can find them) the idea of asking here was hopefully to provide discussion and evidence to suggest that it does or does not or simply we don't know. 

You make a valid point about algae producing allelochemicals to benefit its own survival.  I don't know if this is true, I can only go off what walstads references have led me to believe at this point.  So if carbon removes allelochemicals (which Walstad also says is absolutely true) and in doing so removes a chemical that might benefit algae could we not conclude that that would suggest carbon has a positive affect at removing substances that aid algae growth? That's if allelopathy is even a thing.

I don't understand how one can give a yes or no answer without providing  scientific detail.  Please forgive me but I can't accept an experiment in an unknown tank/environment.  There may have been many reasons some plants survived and some didn't that far exceed any small contribution carbon may or may not have made.  I'm not suggesting carbon is the answer for preventing algae and that initial problems shouldn't be addressed but whether it is removing some things that could have some input to trigger growth providing another reason to run it in an aquarium.

Ceg4048 mentions algae spores sensing organic substances leaching from the surface of a leaf.  Carbon removes organic substances, put two and two together you get this thread. If I does not remove these exact substances then why? Please help me to understand.

Edit: if you don't know please just say you don't know, I will be happy with that answer too


----------



## zozo (4 Mar 2016)

I already said i do not know..  And also do not know if it ever was researched regarding ornamental aquatic plants, probably not because it is not realy described anywhere. But than again suppose carbon does take it out, then it only would be beneficial if the admistering is stoped. So if plants keep producing it and the filter keeps taking it out, you would be back to the vicious circle of adding and taking out, which maybe results in having less of it to a certain extend since the carbon slowly becomes less active to more it takes up, but you're not taking it out.

The proof is in the pudding, still many people using active carbon still have algae (outbrakes).. I did and not a little one too, several, clado, staghorn and green algae, never mind the algae sp. in there which do not bother me enough..  So if it filters out those organics it doesn't do it sufficient enough the be noticable.

That's what i know. And that's not science, that is experience and connecting dots.. Resulting in the idea that the answer most likely is "no"...  Even if there is a little "yes" to it, experience says probably not worth the effort to investigate with tons of expensive lab equiptment for ornamental purpose.

But still the biological phenomenon allelopathy is a very intresting matter and absolutely a thing widly researched in the farming industry. And i think yes it also happens in our fish tanks.

since


> Allelopathy is characteristic of certain plants, algae, bacteria, coral, and fungi. Allelopathic interactions are an important factor in determining species distribution and abundance within plant communities, and are also thought to be important in the success of many invasive plants.


----------



## Soilwork (4 Mar 2016)

Excellent thanks.  So, I would be inclined to agree that Carbon either doesn't remove them at all, doesn't remove them as efficiently as they are produced, removes them but dissolved organics does not contribute to the formation of algae as much as is thought and so has no effect.


----------



## zozo (4 Mar 2016)

What you see is what you get..



There are more things in the tank, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


----------

