# Ongoing, consistent, plant growth problems and deficiencies



## isonychia (1 Nov 2019)

I am coming from another planted tank site in search of help.

I have done just about everything and I am still no further in figuring out my tanks problems. This has been an ongoing problem for probably 2/3 years.

I was hoping a new set of enthusiasts can help.

My tank has been set up for at least 3 years. In those years I have had consistent problems with certain plants. The problems are very similar. Slow growth, older leaves either falling off or browning leaf tips and edges, general chlorosis of mainly older growth. It mostly affects the following plants: Limnophila Aromatica, S. Repens, Rotala Sp green, (other fine leaves rotalas), possibly a few more that I have tried growing.

Here are some stats on the tank
This is a 17 gallon tank.

EI dosing
I alternate the following with a rest day on Saturday and water change on Sunday at about 30%.
Micros
1/32 tsp Plantex CSM+B
1/32 tsp Iron Chelate

Macros
1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
1/32 tsp K2SO4

PH: 7-7.5
GH 25
KH 9

I also had a water test done if it's of use I can provide it.
Meanwhile here are a whole list of stats from my water company.
https://www9.state.nj.us/DEP_WaterWatch_public/JSP/WSDetail.jsp?tinwsys=72

*Light*
Current Sat Plus Pro. Par is set at 50. I verified this with a par meter.

Lights on at 1pm off at 8pm

Co2 injection with a cerges reactor
on at 11am off at 9pm.

Temperature: 78F

I have my CO2 set high enough that any more creates fish distress. So I cannot go any higher with my CO2. I have tried this multiple times and every time I get fish gasping at the surface. I also have a powerhead that creates slight surface agitation. I even tried creating more surface agitation to be able to bump up the CO2 but it was too risky.

I have pretty much tried everything and I cannot get the plants to speed up growth or stop the poor plant health. I could give a long list of what I tried if it helps???

One main situation that keeps occuring: No matter what I do, I can never get my stem plants to grow fast enough so I can create a grove so to speak of a certain plant. They grow so slow and the lower leaves either fall off or get brown tips, ratty looking and chlorosis, that they don't sustain themselves long enough to increase their mass. Its the same process. I let them grow, get a certain height, then trim the tops and replant. If I leave the lower portion, it takes forever to get shoots and grow taller. Meanwhile the lower portion is in poor health anyway. So it's not worth leaving it.

My main algae is GSA on the glass, maybe some is BBA dust type. My anubias nana petite gets it really bad, and diatoms. The diatoms started when I added a sand section last Nov. and it has never gone away. I get this mostly on the glass.

Here are some pictures. Some from when it had more plant mass but still the same problems and some thats more recent but less plant mass in terms of the stems. I don't have some of the plants anymore, I gave up on the LA and the finer leaves rotalas. I still have rotala sp green and a few others that I mentioned as problematic.

Thanks,
iso


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## dw1305 (1 Nov 2019)

Hi all, 
Welcome to UKAPS. That is an interesting user name, are you a fresh-water biologist and/or a fly-fisher?





isonychia said:


> Macros
> 1/8 tsp KNO3
> 1/32 tsp KH2PO4
> 1/32 tsp K2SO4


I can't see your water stats from the link, but it would be worth looking at magnesium (Mg). It is mobile within the plant, so older leaves show <"deficiency symptoms"> first.

If you have soft water (I know they do in New York) you are unlikely to have any magnesium in your tap water. If you have hard water, you may have some, it would depend on the type of <"depositional basin"> that the limestone was laid down in.

Adding magnesium doesn't really have a down-side, it is cheap to buy (as "Epsom Salts" (MgSO4.7H2O)). These are ~10% Mg, and I'd aim for <"5 - 10 ppm Mg"> and see what happens. If magnesium was deficient, you should see a rapid improvement in plant health and growth.

cheers Darrel


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## alto (1 Nov 2019)

More questions of course 

Tank dimensions 
Filter details
Substrate - current and past attempts

Can you post a FTS?

What are your most successful plants?

Do you observe any livestock effects?
What sort of livestock do you keep?


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## Kezzab (1 Nov 2019)

Also, when you say you've set the PAR at 50, at what depth are you meaning? Surface, middle, bottom?
K


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## Edvet (2 Nov 2019)

Can you post a vid? So we can see flow?
Possible to do a pH profile ( hourly measurements from before CO2 starts till lights out?)


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## Zeus. (2 Nov 2019)

Hi and welcome to the forum



isonychia said:


> GH 25
> KH 9



Sounds like hard water to me - but would be nice to see water report.' hard water does make it harder to grow plants'.



isonychia said:


> Iron Chelate



which one ?  Fe DTPA or Fe EDDHA pics dont show that water being slightly pink which suggests Fe DTPA IMO

You haven't mentioned what filter your using ?  and any power heads! - flow/tank turnover? flow is KING in the high tech planted tank without decent/adequate flow/tank turnover your plants will suffer



isonychia said:


> Lights on at 1pm off at 8pm
> 
> Co2 injection with a cerges reactor
> on at 11am off at 9pm.



7 hrs is a longish photoperiod - plus why do you have your CO2 on longer than the photoperiod ?

 pH profile ?



isonychia said:


> PH: 7-7.5



when was this taken?
Mid photo period ? which suggests very hard water !
pre CO2 on ? which suggests hard water again !


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Welcome to UKAPS. That is an interesting user name, are you a fresh-water biologist and/or a fly-fisher?I can't see your water stats from the link, but it would be worth looking at magnesium (Mg). It is mobile within the plant, so older leaves show <"deficiency symptoms"> first.
> 
> ...




Hi Darrel,


I wish I was a biologist, lol. But you are right I am a fly fisherman.


I am in NJ so I don't have the privilege of the soft water NY City has, which ironically comes from the reservoirs that feed the river system I fly fish at.


My water is from wells. It has a GH of 25 and a KH of 9. (approximate from test kits). GH seems to move more than the KH when I have done the tests.

In my research and calling of the water dept I estimated my CA is 120ppm and my MG at 75ppm. I also had a water test done using a service that tests for saltwater aquariums and here are the results. The chemist at the service said the numbers are pretty accurate even though some of their tests don’t measure down to the lower levels needed for freshwater planted tanks.

The chemist said the only value that is really off is Chlorine and Sulphur.


They suggest that Chlorine is probably 0.


The rest should be good. Here are the results.
TANK RESULTS


 

TAP RESULTS


 


As you can see from their test results the MG is 45ppm and the CA is 76 out of the tap. Tank is higher. So my estimate was probably on the high side.

I tried adding Equilibrium (as suggested by a member) before I did this test and that didn’t help. They too suspected an MG deficiency. I think it just made the water higher in CA and MG.

In terms of the link I provider, I’m not sure why it doesn’t work.

Maybe you need to go to the home page and search my town. Lets try it again. 
Go to this link and in the "Water system name" type in "Waldwick".
https://www9.state.nj.us/DEP_WaterWatch_public/index.jsp

In terms of my water (possibly) being too hard or having too much CA and MG, I came here because I found posts from ceg4048 and his experience with 
Limnophila Aromatica and how they flourish in his tank with hard water. It was this post: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/whats-the-importance-of-kh.31225/

Just figured I would put that out there.

Thanks,
isonychia


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

alto said:


> More questions of course
> 
> Tank dimensions
> Filter details
> ...



Hi alto,

Here is the info.
17 gallon Mr Aqua. (60p)
23.6" x 11.8" x 14.2"
Filter: Eheim 2215
Substrate: eco-complete Tank has been setup since 2015. Wow so like 4 years.
Had problems since the beginning.
I have a video I took. I will post that asap.
Most successful plants: mini pellia, monte carlo, fissidens fontanus, ludwigia (maybe repens), star grass, anacaris, lobelia cardinalis, anubia nana petite (except that it gets GSA or the dust BBA type algae), Micranthemum umbrosum thats all I can think of now.

I keep 4 Neon Tetras currently. I do not notice any problems with the fish. They only have problems if I try and increase the CO2.

Thanks,
isonychia


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

Kezzab said:


> Also, when you say you've set the PAR at 50, at what depth are you meaning? Surface, middle, bottom?
> K


Kezzab, the 50 par is measured at the substrate.


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

Edvet said:


> Can you post a vid? So we can see flow?
> Possible to do a pH profile ( hourly measurements from before CO2 starts till lights out?)



The only way I can test PH is through the API test kit. I do not own a pen as I was told they are not really much better. Maybe thats incorrect??
Per my towns water report my PH is about 7.5. Per the API test I get 7.5 in the tank before CO2 on and out of the tap. I don't remember doing a test with the water sitting out and degassing. I tested my PH yesterday. About 2 hours after CO2 (1pm) on I got about 6.6 on the card. At 6pm I tested it again and its at about 6.4. It's hard to tell based on the color charts. But it definitely looked lower than 6.6.

Video to come shortly.

isonychia


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## jolt100 (4 Nov 2019)

Have you tried increasing your water change to minimum of 50% weekly? 
You don't mention what filter turnover you are using but try to improve your flow by using a power head or circulation pump.
Cheers 
John


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

Zeus. said:


> Hi and welcome to the forum
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the welcome.

I'm using DTPA chelated iron from GLA. I tried Flourish iron, (Ferrous gluconate) but that didn't help.
I recently switched my micros to GLA EDTA+DTPA MICROMIX from GLA-CSM+B. So far no benefits have been noticed.
I also was adding 1/64th tsp Mn with the micros, still adding it, but no benefit has been noticed.

I will post the video and it should help with the flow/powerhead quaestions. Filter is Eheim 2215.

I think I HAD set the CO2 to go off when the lights go off but then I changed the photo period at one point and didn't change the CO2 off time. Not sure why. I just changed it to go off the same time the lights go off. No sense in wasting CO2.

PH profile posted above.

isonychia


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

Here is the video.

Please ignore the fact that there is no visually pleasing scape. 
It's impossible to have a scape plan when I cant get the plants I want to grow.


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

freewolny said:


> I think the problem is mainly not enough K and massive amount of Mg (which leads to probably blocked K and Ca uptake). With Ca of 120 ppm you shouldn't keep more that 25-30 Mg (and that means that with 25-30 Mg there should be at least 60ppm of K in the water - but these are generally massive amounts, especially for Aromatica (not to mention that ph of 7-7.5 is too high for Fe chelates - assuming Plantex is using EDTA).



If you look at my ICP test results they report my CA 93ppm and MG 56ppm.

I did tons of research and I still don't know if the excess CA/MG does actually prevent uptake of other nutrients. I also did searches on "high GH/KH" affects etc and could never get a definitive answer. Thats what lead me to posts like this: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/whats-the-importance-of-kh.31225/

I tried cutting my tank water with distilled 50/50 for about a month but didn't see positive results. Maybe it was not long enough. I was hoping a definitive answer would tell me if I should go the RO route or just choose different plants. At this point I am hoping for some answers before I proceed.


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## Edvet (4 Nov 2019)

isonychia said:


> I do not own a pen as I was told they are not really much better.


A good pen is better and faster. Doing a pH profile will tell a lot about your CO2 delivery.
I would improve the flow: have the output of the spraybar horizontal just below the surface, if you need to use the powerhead point it in the same direction so the flows enhance ( you can't bounce flow in a tank)


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

Edvet said:


> A good pen is better and faster. Doing a pH profile will tell a lot about your CO2 delivery.
> I would improve the flow: have the output of the spraybar horizontal just below the surface, if you need to use the powerhead point it in the same direction so the flows enhance ( you can't bounce flow in a tank)



Can you suggest a PH pen?
The spraybar holes are angled about 45 degrees down. That powerhead is pointed up. It is there to simply create some surface agitation. 
I didn't want to have the spraybar holes pointing horizontal as the CO2 is via a cerges reactor and thus I was concerned with off gassing too much CO2. So I use the powerhead for surface agitation instead of the spraybar.

Do you still think it's a bad setup?

iso


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## Zeus. (4 Nov 2019)

Spraybar and power head should be working together as the flow in the Vid looks poor IMO. Working together they would help stabilize the [CO2] thoughout the tank from top to bottom of tank. Number one problem in CO2 injected tanks is poor CO2 implementation with fluctuating [CO2]

Clives word below worth a read


ceg4048 said:


> We have a fairly well grounded, basic understanding of the photosynthetic processes.
> A. We understand that Rubisco's job is to capture CO2 molecules and to deliver the molecules to the Calvin Cycle reaction centers. We know that Rubisco is hugely expensive and consumes a lot of resources to produce and to maintain. In low tech tanks, where the CO2 concentration is low there is a much higher density of Rubisco in the leaf because you need more of the protein to capture the small amounts of CO2. In gas injected tanks, the Rubisco density in the leaf is lower.
> 
> B. We also know that during Calvin Cycle, the fixing of Carbon involves some intermediate carbohydrate products until the final product is a type of glucose.
> ...



So stable [CO2] helps stabilize Rubisco production hence why a pH profile done every 30mins shows how stable the [CO2] is much better than 3 times 



ceg4048 said:


> What I mean is that if you are struggling with CO2 stability, or are having difficulty keeping high concentrations, then it's best to focus efforts on the first half of the photoperiod and not worry so much about the second half. If you are running very strong lighting then you are really pushing the plants and it's necessary to have the CO2 going. After 4 hours, if you turn the gas off, the water stays saturated for a couple of hours after the valve closes and the concentration trails off. So if you have an 8 hour photoperiod and you turn the gas on 2 hours before lights on, you can turn the gas off after 6 hours. So the gas is still running for 8 hours but it's on-off cycle is offset by the amount of time you turn it on prior to lights on.
> 
> There is no need to run the gas for 10 hours therefore.
> 
> ...



So you can cut down the CO2 period a bit more too


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## Edvet (4 Nov 2019)

If you keep the holes subsurface and pointing horizontal it should improve flow, surface agitation will increase gassing of, doesn't matter if it is through spraybar or powerhead. I would start by putting the powerhead central jusst under the spraybar, also pointing horizontal.
Pen: Milwaukee are solid. Just learn how to store and calibrate it, if you are a CO2 user you will use it more often.


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## isonychia (4 Nov 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> I'm not sure at all.Could be, a quick look at the water results suggests a lot of sodium (Na) as well. I think you can safely discount magnesium deficiency.Was this recently? Looking at the video the new growth looks a bit pale, and ferric gluconate wouldn't supply any available iron in your hard water.
> 
> cheers Darrel



I used the Flourish a while ago. I stopped using it a long time ago when it wasn't showing any benefits and went back to the DTPA iron from GLA.

I would like to hear more about the excess of "X" affecting the uptake of "X" premise. I searched repeatedly for it when I saw it mentioned a long time ago (in my searches for "HIGH GH/KH/PH causing problems" ) but I could never find an extensive study on it that made it a definitive fact. I searched Tom Barr's site and EI and was not able to find any mention of it. What I did find was the repeated premise that as long as you have ENOUGH you are fine and no mention of having too much of any element.
Like I said those searches, besides Barr's site also brought me to this site and ceg4048 posts repeating that people chase their water too much and plants don't care about HIGH gh/kh/ph etc etc.  

But I still see it mentioned randomly and was hoping for clarification on it and is it indeed the source of my problem.

Thanks,
iso


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## isonychia (5 Nov 2019)

Edvet said:


> If you keep the holes subsurface and pointing horizontal it should improve flow, surface agitation will increase gassing of, doesn't matter if it is through spraybar or powerhead. I would start by putting the powerhead central jusst under the spraybar, also pointing horizontal.
> Pen: Milwaukee are solid. Just learn how to store and calibrate it, if you are a CO2 user you will use it more often.



Hi Edvet,

I had the flow setup as you describe months ago. My spraybar HOLES pushing water horizontal instead of 45 degrees down and the spray bar mounted underneath also pushing water horizontal.

I assumed my spraybar pointing 45 degrees downward was better to get CO2 to the lower levels and then use the powerhead to create some surface agitation.
I thought the CO2 rich water running horizontal from my spraybar across the surface would off gas MORE CO2. It just seemed logical to me. Maybe thats wrong.

Either way I put it back the way you suggested. It didn't help before, but I did it anyway.

Remember. This is a tiny tank. The plants are getting the CO2 they need. I cant imagine there are any dead spots. But either way, ALL plants suffer. Even the stems that were directly in the path of the spraybar when I had it 45 degrees.

Any other thoughts as to what I should try? Any reading material that outlines the premise "Excess of X prevents uptake of Y"

isonychia


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## dw1305 (5 Nov 2019)

Hi all,





isonychia said:


> I would like to hear more about the excess of "X" affecting the uptake of "X" premise.


It is often just a numbers game, if you have a lot of Ca++ ions in solution, and not many Mg++ ions, the next ion to diffuse through the cell membrane is much more likely to be a Ca++, rather than a Mg++, ion. 

There is plenty of work on deficiency symptoms and <"agricultural crops">, but a lot of it doesn't differentiate between ionic and  pH effects (and these are often linked).

cheers Darrel


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## Edvet (6 Nov 2019)

The only use for a pH controller would be to set it so it would prevent lethal CO2 dose ( malfunctioning system). To have it controle the pH would risk fluctuating CO2 levels which in turn could cause algae.
pH drops through CO2 delivery are no problem for the fish ( extreme CO2 levels on the other hand are lethal).
Using the pH to ascertain your CO2 delivery is helpfull, a pen would be best and most acurate.


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## isonychia (6 Nov 2019)

Edvet said:


> The only use for a pH controller would be to set it so it would prevent lethal CO2 dose ( malfunctioning system). To have it controle the pH would risk fluctuating CO2 levels which in turn could cause algae.
> pH drops through CO2 delivery are no problem for the fish ( extreme CO2 levels on the other hand are lethal).
> Using the pH to ascertain your CO2 delivery is helpfull, a pen would be best and most acurate.



Understood. Can you suggest a particular Milwaukee pen? I could spend hours researching which one to buy. 

Also, besides RO water any other suggestions as to what my problems are or what I can try?

I'm not sure how much more I can "dial it in" (I hate that phrase) my CO2. If I increase it my fish will gasp at the surface. All it takes is one more UP tick on the needle valve. I have tried it before. I cannot inject more.

If I exhaust EVERY option I will probably go out and buy 2 months worth of distilled water and cut my tap as I tried before. I guess I can try it again. But when I did it for a month 50/50 distilled/tap I didn't notice any benefits. Maybe it needs to be for a longer period. I would try that before I invest the time/money/energy into using an RO unit. I would almost rather change my tank to keep hard water plants before I go the whole RO route. If I do 50/50 distilled/tap thats 8 weeks of water changes.
1st water change: 8 gallons distilled and 8 gallons existing tap in tank. The remaining 7 water changes get 4 gallons of distilled/4 gallons tap. So that 4x7=28 28 +8=36 gallons of distilled water in my 2 months test period. Thats a lot of shopping carts full of distilled water. 

iso


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## Edvet (7 Nov 2019)

Seen this:https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/algae-problems-read-this.58460/



isonychia said:


> Can you suggest a particular Milwaukee pen



 Just get something that fit's your budget, don't overthink.


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## isonychia (7 Nov 2019)

Edvet said:


> Seen this:https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/algae-problems-read-this.58460/
> Just get something that fit's your budget, don't overthink.



Thanks.

I looked at the link. Honestly, I don't see anything in there that I am not doing or haven't tried.

On the surface, judging by my photos alone, what kind of deficiency do my stems show?

iso


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## Edvet (7 Nov 2019)

For me it's hard to see deficiencies ( using EI macro's and micro's).
In general dose plenty and do large waterchanges should work. 
Two possible problems i see are: 1) something wonky in your well water 2) not enough maintenace ( either diy ( rub the leaves clean) or use a maintenance crew: snails, shrimp)
You could invest in RO water to cut your well water 50%, i would still do 50% waterchanges every week to reset EI, but maintain that for at least 6 weeks to see results, combined with the best maintenance you can provide.
Any seawater shops nearby, they sell RO water.


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2019)

Hi all, 





isonychia said:


> went back to the DTPA iron from GLA.


Can you get a micro or iron mix with added manganese? It is clutching at straws, but I note that neither ICP analysis recorded any manganese (Mn). In the UK you can get <"Chempak sequestered iron with magnesium and manganese">, but I'm not sure what you can get in the States.





Edvet said:


> Any seawater shops nearby, they sell RO water.


Would rain-water be an option for you? I've used it since the 1970's without any problems.

cheers Darrel


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## isonychia (7 Nov 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Can you get a micro or iron mix with added manganese? It is clutching at straws, but I note that neither ICP analysis recorded any manganese (Mn). In the UK you can get <"Chempak sequestered iron with magnesium and manganese">, but I'm not sure what you can get in the States.Would rain-water be an option for you? I've used it since the 1970's without any problems.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi Darrel,

Adding Manganese was the last thing I tried and continue to dose along with my micros. This is what I purchased.
https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/manganese-sulfate-mnso4-0-25lb.html
This was the last idea suggested by a planted tank member trying to help me after I posted my ICP water test results. Sorry I didn't mention it already. I dose slightly less than 1/64 tsp with my micros 3X a week. I did not notice any benefit in the 2 months I have been adding it.
I'm not sure we get enough rain currently to use it as a consistent source. There are aquarium shops near me that sell RO water. But if I do that I might as well as just buy the distilled gallons at the grocery store for my testing purposes.

In all my searches I keep seeing people with similar problems/deficiencies (older leaves yellowing with brown tips, general chlorosis on older leaves, lower leaves falling off) as mine and people suggesting it's a mobile nutrient problem. Or possibly a combination of mobile nutrients and the chlorosis as being iron. Being that I dose EI I should not be deficient on any nutrients.

I really wish I could get this figured out. I do all the work, all the water changes, maintenance etc and get zero satisfaction due to such poor growth/health of my plants. It really sucks. All the time I spent learning in this hobby, it's almost comical that I still cant figure this out. I would really like to create a new tank. A 33 breeder setup with partial emersed growth. But I cant even get there as I fear I will run into the same problems.
I did the water test because I was out of ideas. I figure there must be something that would surface in that water test from ICP.
Were you able to take a look at my towns detailed water report in the link I provided. I realize it's a lot of data. Just figured I would provide it again.
Go to this link and in the "Water system name" type in "Waldwick".
https://www9.state.nj.us/DEP_WaterWatch_public/index.jsp

There is information in there like "Carbonate Hardness: 418 MG/L" tested in 2019

Thanks
iso


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2019)

Hi all,





isonychia said:


> it's almost comical that I still cant figure this out.


I don't think there is a simple (or possibly single) answer. Your water is quite different from what the majority of us are supplied with.

All I can think is that the hardness and large amount of sodium (Na+), calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++)  is interfering with the uptake of one of the other cations. 

Do you know what the conductivity of your tank water is? (either in microS or as ppm TDS) .

cheers Darrel


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## isonychia (7 Nov 2019)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,I don't think there is a simple (or possibly single) answer. Your water is quite different from what the majority of us are supplied with.
> 
> All I can think is that the hardness and large amount of sodium (Na+), calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++)  is interfering with the uptake of one of the other cations.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure how I would find out the conductivity. I can test for it if you tell me how.
Is it through a TDS meter?


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## papa_c (7 Nov 2019)

Interesting read this I had a similar situation, very poor nd stunted growth...I was dosing EI, played around with the ratios, running CO2 at nose bleed levels, light increase and decrease with still no better results. Everything is automated lights frets and CO2, so I know that I everything was constang

I then embarked on strict maintenance regime near on 100% water change weekly making sure all detritus was removed and the tank was spotless. Added an air stone to run for 6 hours overnight....the change in plant growth had been dramatic.

My conclusion is that maintenance is the most important aspect of the high energy tank.


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## dw1305 (7 Nov 2019)

Hi all, 





isonychia said:


> Is it through a TDS meter?


<"Yes">. 

cheers Darrel


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