# Eco-Complete or ADA Soil



## adamhawk

So thats the questions Eco-Complete or ADA Soil,

What I want is:
A Substrate that works
Last a good length of time
Looks nice
Cost effective

So what do we recommend?


----------



## nickmcmechan

Reading the articles on substrates and posts by those who I would consider 'really know what the heck they are talking about', there seems to be a greater success rate with ADA.

Haven't used it myself though.


----------



## adamhawk

Yes reading up allot about it, but major difference seems to be look and price.


----------



## Lindy

I've had both and ada looks much better.


----------



## adamhawk

ldcgroomer said:


> I've had both and ada looks much better.


Yes I agree it looks better, but what about what it does, much difference, length of life? Apparently Eco turns poo to food.


----------



## Lindy

The eco is like mixed grades of black lava rock and doesn't crumble. I think plants will grow well in both so in the end it comes down to looks.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


----------



## Edvet

How about regular river sand?


----------



## ceg4048

adamhawk said:


> So what do we recommend?


The OP should review the post http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/flora-max-v-eco-complete.13801/#post-143731

Cheers,


----------



## adamhawk

Edvet said:


> How about regular river sand?


I currently use silica sand, and it gets to dirty, and not the best for plants and flow.



ceg4048 said:


> The OP should review the post http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/flora-max-v-eco-complete.13801/#post-143731


Thanks, for me that thread does not really answer the specifics that I wish to establish.


----------



## adamhawk

The other that I can't find too much about is the TMC Nutrasoil


----------



## ceg4048

Hello,
        According to the Original Post, the specific items of interest appear to be as follows>



adamhawk said:


> A Substrate that works


All substrates work. The object of a substrate is to:
1) Anchor the plant to prevent it from washing away.
2) Provide an alternate source of nutrition to the more efficient foliar uptake via engagement with the root.
3) Harboring specific bacterial species which facilitate the fabrication of particular nutrient products. 

Each substrate type or brand can achieve the above three goals with varying rates of success. One therefore must prioritize those objectives.

Sand retains structure for millions of years.
Sand looks nice to those that like sand.
Sand is very cheap.
Sand does an adequate job of achieving objective 1), a less than average job of achieving objective 2), and an adequate job of achieving objective 3). The lack of competence in achieving objective 2) can be easily compensated for by the regular addition of water column nutrient dosing, or by the addition of low cost nutrient added to the base of the substrate.

EcoComplete  retains structure for millions of years.
EcoComplete looks nice to those that prefer dark substrate.
Ecocomplete is hideously expensive.
EcoComplete does an excellent job of achieving objective 1), a marginal job of achieving objective 2), and an adequate job of achieving objective 3). Themarginal  competence in achieving objective 2) can be easily compensated for by the regular addition of water column nutrient dosing, or by the addition of low cost nutrient added to the base of the substrate.

ADA Amazonia retains structure for a few years and can turn to mush.
ADA Amazonia looks very nice to most and is a dark substrate.
ADA Amazonia is outrageously expensive.
ADA Amazonia does an adequate job of achieving objective 1), a phenomenal job of achieving objective 2), and an excellent job of achieving objective 3). It's high competence at achieving objective 2 greatly reduces the need for regular water column dosing and no supplementation is needed at the base of the substrate.

Cheers,


----------



## adamhawk

ceg4048 said:


> Hello,According to the Original Post, the specific items of interest appear to be as follows>



Now you have spoken in a term and form I can understand, thank you, massive help. What about the TMC then?


----------



## Edvet

Edvet said:


> How about regular river sand?


 I have had the same substrate in my tank for 14 years now, put some clay/laterite under it before i filled it, put in some heating cable to get some circulation in it, had MTS in it for years. Its 5-15 cm deep, never had any problems (my tanks is 2m square).


----------



## adamhawk

So any info on TMC?


----------



## Alastair

adamhawk said:


> The other that I can't find too much about is the TMC Nutrasoil



Brilliant stuff. I use this in all my set ups. Nice round shape no clouding and holds its structure and plants grow well


----------



## Aquadream

From my experience so far Amazonia is difficult to manage. It interferes with the CO2 levels in the aquarium and often leads to CO2 deficiency in plants. Yes it does have a lot of nutrients, but at the start and the first two months is a hell of a maintenance and water changes or everything goes busted.

Amazonia is the best there is for CRS tanks, it is real good there as long as the light level is low and there is no need for CO2 injection and monitoring. After been for a year in a CRS set up and gets well saturated with organic waste it becomes nothing short of a miracle, but that's also the case with many other organic substrates that I have used.

Can not say anything for EC, but for silica sand just about everything.
As long as the silica sand have been released/cleaned (preferably by HNO3) from contaminants that can potentially alter the water chemistry it is the best, of the best, of the best ever. WHY?
Because it does not interfere with anything in aquarium and leaves the entire management of nutrients, CO2 etc to the aquarium owner. So with silica your aquarium will be as good as you manage it to be and in this regard the hell expensive clay substrates have very little to add.

Just check how plants are grown in nurseries. Stone Wool. It is just as inert as silica sand.


----------



## Andy D

Aquadream said:


> Just check how plants are grown in nurseries. Stone Wool. It is just as inert as silica sand.



They are also typically grown emersed so have an unlimited supply of CO2.


----------



## adamhawk

Sand is not an option for me, either TMC, ADA or Eco.


----------



## Aquadream

Andy D said:


> They are also typically grown emersed so have an unlimited supply of CO2.


CO2 is not related to substrates much if at all.  CO2 have no relevance to the media in which plants can be planted to grow.


----------



## tim

adamhawk said:


> Sand is not an option for me, either TMC, ADA or Eco.


Colombo florabase is maybe another consideration.


----------



## ceg4048

Aquadream said:


> From my experience so far Amazonia is difficult to manage.


Well, there may be issues with individual batches, and I recall you have had some difficulty in one or more of your tanks, which you attributed to Amazonia, but I don't think think it can be said that unilaterally, Amazonia is problematic. There are just too many successful tanks out there using Amazonia to bash it without further evidence.  I've never had a problem with Amazonia. George Farmer, Dan Crawford, Viktorlantos, just to name a few, consistently turn out brilliant aquascapes using Amazonia and it's my favorite substrate, except for the price! 

I also don't think that it can be demonstrated that Amazonia has any effect on CO2 dissolution. There are thousands of tanks which suffer poor CO2. In fact, poor CO2 is the single biggest cause of the demise of most unsuccessful tanks, regardless of substrate choice. It would be difficult to imagine, by what mechanism this substrate could reduce the CO2 concentration level of the water column. The CO2 concentration level can only be a function of pressure, temperature and NaCl concentration. Clearly, pressure and temperature are not affected by Amazonia, so if it can be shown that the NaCl level of the water is significantly affected by Amazonia, then it would be believable, however, the level of NaCl sufficient to affect CO2 dissolution would negatively affect the health of freshwater fish, and this would be consistently observable.

As you've mentioned:


Aquadream said:


> CO2 is not related to substrates much if at all. CO2 have no relevance to the media in which plants can be planted to grow.


Which is a valid statement. However, it should be noted that organic substrates such as soil and leaf litter, do generate CO2 because of the bacterial metabolism facilitated by the high levels of carbohydrates found in soil.    Amazonia attempts to replicate this phenomenon by infusing peat or similar carbohydrates sources on the baked surface of the pellets. Plants that are capable of CO2 uptake from their roots can take advantage of this mechanism. So actually, there is some relevance in of CO2 in the sediment, but it depends on the sediment type, the preparation of the sediment, and on the type of plant.

I think Andy D's point was that when plants are grown in a terrestrial format, such as in the nursery, the substrate used, such as stone wool, has less relevance because the leaves have access to atmospheric CO2 and that nutrition can be applied either via foliar spray or by application of the nutrient to the wool.



adamhawk said:


> So any info on TMC?


It is reported that TMC Nutrisoil is a similar in construction and formula to Amazonia, but no details have been made available.

I agree that the high ammonia content of enriched substrates such as Amazonia is problematic, but this can easily be averted by simply letting the sediment sit moistened for a month in a bucket, or by baking it in a over for a few hours at over 200 deg.C. This will mineralized the ammonia into NO3.

Cheers


----------



## Aquadream

ceg4048 said:


> Well, there may be issues with individual batches, and I recall you have had some difficulty in one or more of your tanks, which you attributed to Amazonia, but I don't think think it can be said that unilaterally, Amazonia is problematic. There are just too many successful tanks out there using Amazonia to bash it without further evidence.  I've never had a problem with Amazonia. George Farmer, Dan Crawford, Viktorlantos, just to name a few, consistently turn out brilliant aquascapes using Amazonia and it's my favorite substrate, except for the price!


I actually had difficulties only in my last scape. That's why I named it "Rapture in me" because it nearly destroyed my nervous system.
IAPLC2011- 280, IAPLC 2012 - 69 and number of others that were never published are my tanks with Amazonia. Immaculate plants in every way. Now my tank looks a lot better than my last scape that I have discussed with you (and you couldn't offer any explanation), but still not as good as I use to have scapes before 2012.

Now to the evidence room.

HC on the left in Amazonia. HC on the right in compost.





Lilaeopsis Brasiliensis on the left in Amzonia, on the right in compost.




Eleocharis Parvula on the left no substrate at all, only tab water and remains of in vitro gel. On the right in Amazonia.








Hemianthus Cuba from my current scape hooked on the rocks with stone wool. No substrate. Please point to another example of HC planted in any tank with Amazonia after 2012 that looks any near as good.




All plants were planted one and a half month ago by me in my hydroponics.

HOW IS THIS EVIDENCE?

I can keep going like this forever, but it's meaningless.
What bugs me is what would it take for people like you to consider that mere mortals such as my self also have enough brains to judge if a product is a good one or bad one?
And would you ever stop insulting my intelligence with the smart academic talk? After all I have some insignificant 30 years in this hobby and as any one can see from the pictures above I CAN GROW PLANTS no worse than you or anyone else.

I apologise if I was rude in any way, but honestly dismissing mine and the plead of many other in this hobby as a mere CO2 mistake is bit over the edge. People are not that stupid, at least not all of them.


----------



## Andy Thurston

Looking at your pics looks like you have ammonia burn in your emersed setup, but thats more science
Whats hard to manage? ammonia?
Do regular water change to keep it in check and do the same in your emersed setups too.
I don't use it because it cost far too much for baked dirt with added ei salts when a bag of pond soil or compost will do the job. if you have the money and you want to why not use amazonia but be prepared to deal with ammonia

I'm quite surprised by this


> I've never had a problem with Amazonia. George Farmer, Dan Crawford, Viktorlantos, just to name a few, consistently turn out brilliant aquascapes using Amazonia and it's my favorite substrate


Considering you can grow plants in sand if you dose the water column properly. 
Even though i don't fully understand the science i have a much better idea than a year ago, or am i just plugging myself into Clive's version of the matrix and the next generation of myths


----------



## Aquadream

Big clown said:


> Looking at your pics looks like you have ammonia burn in your emersed setup, but thats more science
> Whats hard to manage? ammonia?
> Do regular water change to keep it in check and do the same in your emersed setups too.
> I don't use it because it cost far too much for baked dirt with added ei salts when a bag of pond soil or compost will do the job. if you have the money and you want to why not use amazonia but be prepared to deal with ammonia
> 
> I'm quite surprised by this
> 
> Considering you can grow plants in sand if you dose the water column properly.
> Even though i don't fully understand the science i have a much better idea than a year ago, or am i just plugging myself into Clive's version of the matrix and the next generation of myths


Those plants are grown in hydroponics, not in aquarium, not under water. So the ammonia burn inhere s a urban legend, nothing more, especially considering that according to ADA this newer Amazonia substrate have actually reduced levels of Nitrogen by half. In the old Amazonia I never had "ammonia burns" not once, emersed or submersed.
There are some stem plants that manage to grow emersed, but as soon as they get under water the CO2 deficiency signs come to live. The ammonia myth is busted.

Pal as I said (if you bothered to read) I am in this hobby for over 30 years and the last advise anyone can give me is about water changes.

I also use only RO water with salt supplements, so if anyone want to look for gremlins there give it up. I'v killed them all.

I would like to have a better explanation if anyone can offer any, not advice on basic plant maintenance for beginners.


----------



## Andy Thurston

30 years in the game and you dont like being wrong, i understand, but i haven't seen you bust any gremlins yet pal, just a couple of pics and a load of ranting but no explanation. I know who's advice i'd rather take and it wouldnt be be from the rude, angry man in the corner. If theres a co2 deficiency when you flood the tank your not adding enough co2, nothing to do with substrate more basic advice add more co2 or reduce light
But you dont appear to want advice, just an argument


----------



## Sacha

ceg4048 said:


> Imagine if I put a plastic bag over your head and forced you to re-breathe the air you exhale.



Aquadream. I'm not sure what kind of advice you want. People are taking the time to write out responses to try and help you with your issues. You don't want to hear it.


----------



## nickmcmechan




----------



## Dan walton

Not read all these comments and can't say I want dragging into the huge debate I agree with big clown myself and him have had fantastic results with our set ups my most successfull being a huge amount of john innes potting compost capped with grey sand lots of light and buckets of co2 my biggest problem is keeping the jungle under control. Oh and Andy your right those stems have grown 10 mm per day since we trimmed them so much so I've set a time lapse up today while I'm out and about should be interesting


----------



## petn

Interesting. if u grow two same plants dry, both with the same amount of atmospheric co2 available, u get two totally different results and only obvious difference is a substrate why one should not take it as an information to consider?! This is as I take it. cheers Aquadream for sharing 

Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


----------



## Aquadream

petn said:


> Interesting. if u grow two same plants dry, both with the same amount of atmospheric co2 available, u get two totally different results and only obvious difference is a substrate why one should not take it as an information to consider?! This is as I take it. cheers Aquadream for sharing
> 
> Sent from my HTC One mini using Tapatalk


You are welcome. Evidently ADA fun boys don't think this way.


----------



## Aquadream

Big clown said:


> 30 years in the game and you dont like being wrong, i understand, but i haven't seen you bust any gremlins yet pal, just a couple of pics and a load of ranting but no explanation. I know who's advice i'd rather take and it wouldnt be be from the rude, angry man in the corner. If theres a co2 deficiency when you flood the tank your not adding enough co2, nothing to do with substrate more basic advice add more co2 or reduce light
> But you dont appear to want advice, just an argument


Now since you appear to miss the point let me spell it for you.
One pot is perfect, the other is crap. Both in the same environment. Now what does water changes have anything to do with this fact when in both pots the same plant is propagated.
Or would you like to have the pictures much bigger so you can see better what the story is all about?

As for the aquarium. Clear spelling again.
CO2 checker is always pure yellow. CO2 never stops. Water is changed every other day 50% for more than a month by now only after the lights go off.
TDS is 200 or less, Cond. bellow 300, Salts does not exceed 150 ever. Carbonate hardness increase from 1 to 3dKh makes things worse, so it is kept 1dKh or less.
I also have all of the professional water tests that you very likely haven't even hear off yet and everything measures within the normal limits for a planted tank. That includes - K, Na, S, Mg, Mn, NO3, PO4, Ca, Mg, Fe etc. etc etc.
For my 30 years of experience (that seem to mean nothing to you) I have learned much more than the beginners theory about water changes.
I have quite solid background in basic water chemistry and I am a very methodical person.

Now perhaps you understand why I am so pissed when you kindly advise me to do water changes. Please don't!

The only real help anyone can offer is laboratory tests of Amazonia. Something that I can not get done in Bulgaria.[DOUBLEPOST=1397412774][/DOUBLEPOST]





Sacha said:


> Aquadream. I'm not sure what kind of advice you want. People are taking the time to write out responses to try and help you with your issues. You don't want to hear it.



How smart of you. I'm glad you are here to tell me these things. Hell, what would I have done if you weren't around?


----------



## Aquadream

If anyone wants to flush an angry man with more wisdom, please go elsewhere for that.
If anyone can offer any scientific explanation of why could this be happening (cut the CO2, water changes and frets basic crap) then I am open for suggestions, because I still have a pile of this substrate in my storage and intend to use it.
If anyone believes that I am here to bash the incredible ADA company, this is certainly not my purpose, regardless they never answered any e-mails for over a year now.

And if anyone wants to point fingers, please take a look at the pictures first.[DOUBLEPOST=1397413403][/DOUBLEPOST]





Dan walton said:


> Not read all these comments and can't say I want dragging into the huge debate I agree with big clown myself and him have had fantastic results with our set ups my most successfull being a huge amount of john innes potting compost capped with grey sand lots of light and buckets of co2 my biggest problem is keeping the jungle under control. Oh and Andy your right those stems have grown 10 mm per day since we trimmed them so much so I've set a time lapse up today while I'm out and about should be interesting


Well is it not just the same in my report pictures. Compost doing unbelievable job?


----------



## nickmcmechan

Simmer down....


----------



## terry82517

Have you tried adding more co2....


----------



## Aquadream

terry82517 said:


> Have you tried adding more co2....


Have you tried reading the posts above?


----------



## terry82517

Tough crowd


----------



## Andy D

Aquadream said:


> The only real help anyone can offer is laboratory tests of Amazonia. Something that I can not get done in Bulgaria.



Why not? Are you telling me that there is nowhere in the whole of Bulgaria that this can be done?

What do you think is wrong with the substrate? What does it need to be tested for?  How are any mere mortals expected to help when you have this superior 30 years experience?

I can understand you are frustrated but being aggressive and rude to people is not the best way to get help. How do you expect anyone with the facility to test the product to help you when you act in such a terrible manner?

My Brother-in-law is a chemist and has access to a lab. Would I ask him to help you? Absolutely not!


----------



## Andy Thurston

I might read the posts more closely if they weren't full of obscenities, we'll be comparing parts of anatomy next
I wasn't advising you to change water in your tank but your emersed setup, so evidently your not reading properly either. Are you sure its not ammonia burn in your emersed setup? amazonia is known to release ammonia,  now read carefully because I'm not talking about a flooded tank. in a tank you change the water, you might not do this in an emersed setup and this can lead to nutrient burn. I've seen a few journals where this has happened. It usually results in the tank getting flooded and then the hc recovers without showing any signs of deficiency 
For a man that spends so much money on test kits I'm quite surprised you understand very little science
George farmer and other top scapers don't  have co2 deficiency with amazonia. so why do you? So you see you still haven't busted any gremlins with regard to co2 uptake in your tank and amazonia. just that you had a bad do with it in your tank 
Maybe you did get a bad batch, some people had problems but most managed to sort it. 
How about next time you grow hc emersed in amazonia you could give one tray a quick rinse daily to see if it helps with the melting compared the the other, then you will know if its a nutrient burn or not. If you want a different expert opinion perhaps you should pm tom barr or darrel and ask them about your particular scenario


----------



## tim

Increased nutrients will surely drive the the need for increased co2 AT unlimited light levels, maybe this is the issue with the Amazonia you have, ahem  no I'm not taking the piss or trying to "flush an angry man with more wisdom", you seem to be intent on proving Amazonia is a bad substrate, IMHO I don't think such a thing exists, substrate is substrate, is a thing that holds plants in the ground, limit light and you'll limit the need for co2, as we all know excess ferts don't cause algae, but if your substrate is driving the need for co2 your option is to match it with co2 or lower the light intensity negating the need to kill your livestock, I'm not a big fan of these threads that turn into product or member bashing threads, it's uncalled for  if you really don't want your Amazonia stockpile I'll happily take it off your hands for postage  pm me if interested lol, yep buddy I'm now taking the piss


----------



## Dan walton

Not wanting to be dragged into the debate yet I've been quoted so heres my opinion not tried Amazonia it's out of my price range I choose to invest in frequent water changes good co2 and plenty of light and a cheap potting compost works great couldn't be happier so not likely to invest in expensive  substrates I have a tank that I did with fluval stratum the most money I've ever spent on substrate and I hate it difficult to plant in I would cap it off with sand if I could be sure it wouldn't work its way to the top again. So sand and compost it is for me I would try this Amazonia but some one would have to give me the stuff I just can't see the money in it .


----------



## Aquadream

Andy D said:


> Why not? Are you telling me that there is nowhere in the whole of Bulgaria that this can be done?
> 
> What do you think is wrong with the substrate? What does it need to be tested for?  How are any mere mortals expected to help when you have this superior 30 years experience?
> 
> I can understand you are frustrated but being aggressive and rude to people is not the best way to get help. How do you expect anyone with the facility to test the product to help you when you act in such a terrible manner?
> 
> My Brother-in-law is a chemist and has access to a lab. Would I ask him to help you? Absolutely not!


This is what most people say when they have actually nothing to say. Someone else is bad.
How good is when you and others ignore every post I make and give me cheap water change or CO2 boost advise?


----------



## Andy D

Aquadream said:


> This is what most people say when they have actually nothing to say. Someone else is bad.
> How good is when you and others ignore every post I make and give me cheap water change or CO2 boost advise?



Please may I ask that you kindly take the time to read my post. I actually asked you a few questions in the seemingly pointless endeavour of trying to offer assistance. 

It seems you need a scientist. I am pretty sure Clive is a scientist. He answered your post and your response was "please stop insulting me with your academic talk". What more can be done?

Crazy, just crazy. 

I hope you get to the bottom of the problem.


----------



## ceg4048

So I'm going to lock this thread because it has deteriorated into the absurd.

Cheers,


----------

