# betta I'd please



## andrew1987 (15 Nov 2016)

can anyone ID this betta. I can't decide if it's a female or male splenden. or maybe betta siamorientalis. not sure about uploading pictures so if it doesn't work it's also the fish in my avatar.
thanks


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## Planted Bows (15 Nov 2016)

It does look a male from the picture however I cannot be sure as it's a bit blurry 

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## dw1305 (15 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





andrew1987 said:


> betta siamorientalis


Male _<"Betta imbellis">_ would be my guess. 

I've never seen _B. siamorientalis, _but I believe it is similar to _B. imbellis_. Where did you get it from?

cheers Darrel


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## andrew1987 (15 Nov 2016)

pets at home in with the female betta splendens. here's another picture still not great quality I'm afraid. I actually wanted betta imbellis so hopefully your right.
thanks


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## alto (15 Nov 2016)

Don't forget this is what wild type Betta splendens looks like (wild type males sometimes show up in the female _B splendens_ shipments, also wild type females)

_Betta_ _splendens_

Place the fish in a specimen container for better photos


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## andrew1987 (15 Nov 2016)

good idea alto. don't wanna stress him/her to much today so will wait till tomorrow. I've got a perfect container for the job.
thanks


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## Planted Bows (15 Nov 2016)

Have a look under its belly, if it has a white dot then it's a female holding eggs which they get constantly. I'd never buy from pets at home in the future. I used to when I first started out and got a male betta sold as a female...... Turned out to be a very nice looking half moon 

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## andrew1987 (15 Nov 2016)

I don't usually buy from fish pets at home neither. went for some plant fertilizer and saw it in the tank. it looked healthy enough and very simular to betta imbellis. I've been wanting b. imbellis for a while now so thought I'd give it a home. it won't be kept with any other bettas and I have a spare tank just incase it takes a dislike to the boraras brigittae it's living with.


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## andrew1987 (16 Nov 2016)

is this a better picture. really is a stunning fish


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## Planted Bows (16 Nov 2016)

Wow!! Amazing colours 

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## Lindy (16 Nov 2016)

Looks like a betta splendens plakat male.


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## dw1305 (17 Nov 2016)

Hi all,





Lindy said:


> Looks like a betta splendens plakat male


It does. 

Does it have any iridescent scales on the gill cover (operculum?)? _Betta splendens _doesn't have any iridescent scales, _Betta imbellis_ does.
From <"Seriously Fish: _Betta splendens_">





> The unique combination of characters distinguishing _B. splendens_ from others in the group is as follows: no iridescent scales on opercle; opercle with red-coloured parallel vertical bars; fins in male blue, green, or red; head and body relatively stocky with depth 27.1-32.2 % SL.


cheers Darrel


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## Lindy (17 Nov 2016)

It would be unlikely to be anything else as all the Betta splendens will be from massive farms.  

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## andrew1987 (17 Nov 2016)

been doing a fair bit of research into bettas and it really seems impossible to pinpoint exactly what type this fish is. I agree with you lindy i just didn't expect to find a wild coloured male betta in a tank full of females. it's hard to spot iridescent gill scales but I think there is some. I went back in the shop today and had a good look and there's other males in the tank. The lighter coloured females definitely have iridescent blue gill scales so maybe there's some hybridisation going on. the other thing is they weren't fighting. there was a little flaring going on but nothing more. Im going to my lfs over the weekend and the owners a betta collector so maybe he'll know more.
thanks everyone


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## alto (17 Nov 2016)

Young Bettas, sibling Bettas can often be kept in groups, even unrelated adult male B splendens can be maintained in "groups" IF care is taken with selecting the individuals & tank set up (though also expect some flaring & likely fin damage)

Unfortunately with the advent of "dragonscale" or "metallic" B splendens (likely introduced through hybrid crosses though this is unclear), the presence/absence of  "iridescent scales on the gill cover" is no longer a defining indication of B splendens vs non-B splendens 

While show quality "dragonscale" is obvious,  this trait shows a broad range of phenotype (rather like "halfmoon" & "rose" tail expression) & has "contaminated" many lines.




> if it has a white dot then it's a female holding eggs which they get constantly. I'd never buy from pets at home in the future. I used to when I first started out and got a male betta sold as a female......


Males can also show a "white dot"  & females can lack a "white dot", so this is not definitive of female B splendens
Young Bettas can be difficult to distinguish sex, especially if you aren't familiar with the line ... there is also trade in young females Bettas (much lower value) being sold as (fancy) juvenile male Bettas, especially plakat lines

I don't support Big Box aquarium shops but I'd not hold (likely inadvertent) Betta sex confusions against them 



andrew1987 said:


> Im going to my lfs over the weekend and the owners a betta collector so maybe he'll know more.


& please support them as well


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## andrew1987 (17 Nov 2016)

alto said:


> & please support them as well



thanks alto you seem very knowledgeable.
I agree with everything you've said. Especially on supporting my lfs. There really has been a lack of decent shops where I live, and buying poor stock caused me to lose interest. for years my aquarium housed a single aging gourami and a catfish. Then luckily a new shop opened that stocks great fish and special orders most fish. he currently has a large group of boraras brigittae quarentining for me. he's even acclimatising them to my ph and hardness.

truth is I'm not to fussed on knowing his true identification. I originally wanted a small group of more peaceful bettas for my new asain themed scape. so it would've been nice for someone to say he's definitely imbellis and I could keep a group. but he's more than pretty enough to create the look i was going for on his own. (I'm new and found the smiley faces)


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## Lindy (17 Nov 2016)

andrew1987 said:


> i just didn't expect to find a wild coloured male betta in a tank full of females.


It is quite a common colour. I bred a fancy male to a fancy female and some of the offspring ended up the wild type blue/black. Quite stunning fish.
Alto is absolutely correct about sexing these fish, It can be a nightmare and young males often masquarade as females.


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## alto (17 Nov 2016)

andrew1987 said:


> I originally wanted a small group of more peaceful bettas for my new asain themed scape.


I suspect your lfs would give him a home & bring in a group of wilds (or tank bred suitable Betta species) at your request - the new owner sounds amazing


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## andrew1987 (17 Nov 2016)

alto said:


> I suspect your lfs would give him a home & bring in a group of wilds (or tank bred suitable Betta species) at your request - the new owner sounds amazing



think I'll keep him unless he gets aggressive and then Id have a good excuse for a new aquarium and scape. I've been trying to talk the wife into letting me get a small tank for a while now.
 They actually had some imbellis but had sold out by the time I'd decided that's what I wanted. and then when they ordered my boraras the importer didn't have any.


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## dean (19 Nov 2016)

If you want any Bettas species in the future let me know I tranship every month 


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## andrew1987 (19 Nov 2016)

dean said:


> If you want any Bettas species in the future let me know I tranship every month



thanks I might take you up on that if I have any aggression issues with this little fella. do you have any opinion on him, guessing you know your bettas if your shipping them.


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## ourmanflint (19 Nov 2016)

I would tend to agree with Lindy. This looks like a typical plakat that is traditionally used for fighting in Thailand.


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## dean (20 Nov 2016)

I'd say a standard plakat i.e. One that is bred as a cheap pet trade grade fish so the wild colouring is standard for this grade of fish 
Nothing to stop you enjoying him thought 
Place a mirror in or next to the aquarium for 5-10 minutes each day this gives him something to take his aggression out on 
Plenty in YouTube about this 


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## andrew1987 (20 Nov 2016)

dean said:


> I'd say a standard plakat i.e. One that is bred as a cheap pet trade grade fish so the wild colouring is standard for this grade of fish
> Nothing to stop you enjoying him thought
> Place a mirror in or next to the aquarium for 5-10 minutes each day this gives him something to take his aggression out on
> Plenty in YouTube about this



he's found his reflection on my background thinking maybe I should change it as he flares at it quite a lot. To be honest I'd happily pick him over a fancy betta


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## andrew1987 (21 Nov 2016)

not saying any of you are wronge, but my lfs owner says 100% he's not a betta splenden plakat. he said splenden plakats are stockier and have a completely different head shape. he also said he thought it looked more like imbellis apart from the red lines on his beard.


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## alto (21 Nov 2016)

fish is not to breed or show standard for a plakat, but fish is also not unusual for a fish that may be culled out of a spawn ... as mentioned, there is a good deal of out-crossing that has occurred in _B splendens _line development.
Chances are if fish came off a _B splendens_ farm/list (much more likely as from a big box shop) rather than _B imbellis_ or assorted _B species_ farm/list, it's predominantly _B splendens _ 

Additionally from Seriously Fish


> This species (_B imbellis_) has been extensively line-bred for aggression in southern Thailand, where it is used in organised bouts in the same way as _B. splendens_ elsewhere. It has also been selectively-bred for the ornamental trade, and hybridised with the congeners _B. smaragdina,_ _B._ _mahachaiensis_, and _B. splendens_, leading to the development of a number of colour forms that do not occur naturally.


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## Polly (4 Dec 2016)

The fish in your picture looks like the one in my Avatar.

He was one of a batch of very pretty young females at MA about 10 years ago.  I bought a group of 6.

As they grew the became very aggressive with a lot of flaring and posturing.  At this point I realised they must be Plakat males and ended up with several more t anks and a split tank.   Talk about multiple tank syndrome!

Couldn't keep even one of them in the main aquarium as they would hunt down smaller fish and...

Had a disaster with the split tank.  One of the males jumped the divider and there was a nasty fight.  They ripped each other to shreds 

I tried keeping Amano shrimp with one of them.  Was fine right up till the Amano shed his skin.  I saw the last of him disappearing into a very smug Turquoise plakat :-/   Very expensive snacks !

They are beautiful fish and I spent ages photographing them.

Enjoy him for what he is - a real beauty and a great character


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## alto (5 Dec 2016)

Ironically I've some "show" or "fancy" plakats & they are definitely not "fighter" lines, only 1 of 3 is "shrimp safe" but all 3 are fine with other fish & have even enjoyed (at least they appear unstressed ) some "group time" with other Bettas (90cm densely planted tank) - they investigate each other, spend a little time flaring, then mostly go off exploring
The only Betta I have who couldn't seem to relax with any other Betta is a dragonscale HM but he's generally fine with shrimp (ie no observed interest or apparent effect on shrimp population)


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## andrew1987 (10 Dec 2016)

Polly said:


> The fish in your picture looks like the one in my Avatar.
> 
> He was one of a batch of very pretty young females at MA about 10 years ago.  I bought a group of 6.
> 
> ...



mines quite the opposite Im currently keeping him with a group of four endlers six cherry shrimp and a female betta ( I know bettas shouldn't be kept together but there's an empty tank waiting just incase) there hasn't been any aggression apart from the odd flare at each other.
he's been building bubble nest quite regularly but doesn't show the female any interest whatsoever, the tanks 120l and well planted so gives them space to have there own territory.
a couple days ago a female endler dropped some fry. the female betta went into full hunt mode but the male has been quite the opposite and has been actively gaurding some of the fry from the female betta. 
guessing he thinks there his fry.


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## Polly (17 Dec 2016)

Awww that's really sweet 

Hope he stays that way 

Mine were all fine until they became adults, then it all changed.

Hopefully yours will stay fine


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