# Dutch Donut



## Geoffrey Rea (16 Jun 2021)

So the tank is Dutch style, I’m the donut running it and yes, it’s an immediate fail under Dutch rules as the equipment is clearly visible in tank. Always good to start strong 😂 

Planting at start up:






Plant list:

Eriocaulon cinereum
Hottonia palustris 
Hygrophila lancea ‘Araguaia’
Limnophila hippuridoides
Lindernia rotundifolia
Myriophyllum mattogrossense
Pogostemon helferi 
Rotala wallichii
Staurogyne repens

Equipment list:

Aquascaper 600
2 x ONF Flat One’s
Co2Art Pro SE regulator and Flux diffuser
Wet/Dry sump filtration
Schego Titanium heater and temp controller 

Substrate is ADA Amazonia and ADA Bacter 100 sprinkled on the base along with root tabs. Water is 1KH and 5GH remineralised RO.


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## plantnoobdude (16 Jun 2021)

beautiful tank. and a lot of light! it'll be interesting to see the contrast in texture once the plants convert.


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## MichaelJ (17 Jun 2021)

Nice! There is something about a fresh start... makes we want to set up a 3rd tank!


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## erwin123 (17 Jun 2021)

I'm interested to learn how to grow H. Lancea in Dutch Style. My H. Lancea would simply crawl along the substrate rather than form a neat bush. Please share your trimming techniques as well!


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## SudhirR (17 Jun 2021)

Nice start. Following. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Geoffrey Rea (17 Jun 2021)

plantnoobdude said:


> beautiful tank. and a lot of light!



Ample with two units:





Maximum drop to the substrate is 12 inches in this setup. Good spread to all four corners of the footprint, plus the overlap of both units across the middle. Also not the first rodeo using this light setup, it’s a bit of a beast and probably wouldn’t end well without the wet/dry system.



erwin123 said:


> I'm interested to learn how to grow H. Lancea in Dutch Style. My H. Lancea would simply crawl along the substrate rather than form a neat bush. Please share your trimming techniques as well!



That’s what we’re here to do... Your designated donut will do his best to oblige. Have never run a Dutch style tank before @erwin123 so will be learning as we go along too. Much more disciplined compared to the usual ‘live and let live’ attitude applied to growth in the other tanks.


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## Nick potts (17 Jun 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Also not the first rodeo using this light setup, it’s a bit of a beast and probably wouldn’t end well without the wet/dry system.


Great start, will be watching this one, I have been looking into a dutch style for a while now.

How does a wet/dry filter help when you are running this much light over a system?


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## Geoffrey Rea (17 Jun 2021)

Nick potts said:


> Great start, will be watching this one, I have been looking into a dutch style for a while now.



Thanks @Nick potts it’s still freshly planted. Think that it is good to show how crappy things can look at startup when transitioning plants from emersed to submersed though. A lot of folk who are new to the hobby get it in their head that it’s picture perfect from the start. It ain’t when using emersed growth from the grow houses. But hopefully they can appreciate how quick the transition is.

Species list subject to change too...



Nick potts said:


> How does a wet/dry filter help when you are running this much light over a system?



Higher continual dissolved o2 levels. Check this post out for more detail on o2. Posts #121 through to #133. You can afford more push down on the accelerator pedal, or in this case, more light, growth and waste management. Still requires thought on how to dish out nutrition through the water column and substrate though.

Wet/dry systems are, in a word, brilliant. They need not be complicated either. This one is an old Dennerle 55l tank, a plastic box and the glass lid of the tank repurposed to make the baffles:





If anyone else fancies building this it got documented in the Taking a sump. Back in five minutes... journal. Sumps make for a fun project and pretty sure the design can be improved.


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## Nick potts (17 Jun 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Thanks @Nick potts it’s still freshly planted. Think that it is good to show how crappy things can look at startup when transitioning plants from emersed to submersed though. A lot of folk who are new to the hobby get it in their head that it’s picture perfect from the start. It ain’t when using emersed growth from the grow houses. But hopefully they can appreciate how quick the transition is.
> 
> Species list subject to change too...
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info and links. So true about seeing a tank at the very start, everyone wants that lush looking tank but you have to remember it takes a bit of time and patience to achieve the results.

I have always been a sump user on my marine and a lot of my FW community tanks, but have stayed away from them on my planted setups because of the potential to drive off CO2, obviously, I need to rethink that position.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (18 Jun 2021)

Are you still running the bazooka diffuser in front of your return pump or did you go with a reactor instead?


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## Geoffrey Rea (18 Jun 2021)

Still using the bazooka diffuser in front of the return pump @Mr.Shenanagins .


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## PARAGUAY (18 Jun 2021)

Interesting to see this develop. Guessing more work trimming etc but easy to maintain because of lack of hardscape


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## Geoffrey Rea (18 Jun 2021)

PARAGUAY said:


> Guessing more work trimming etc but easy to maintain because of lack of hardscape



All the hardscape in the tanks here just end up with plants on them anyway 😂 Might as well go full tilt.

Always been impressed by the Dutch scapes that use just a few species but do it really effectively. Tend towards collectoritis so this is a good exercise. Ten species or less for this one. Force my own hand to be selective and think about contrast of colour and form.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (18 Jun 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Still using the bazooka diffuser in front of the return pump @Mr.Shenanagins .


Cool deal I took your advice and did the same. I don’t particularly like the massive cloud of bubbles so I’m thinking of maybe getting a better diffuser, not sure if that will make a difference. I got a cheap one on Amazon that works great, but the bubbles are larger than I’d prefer. I’m also considering getting a needle wheel to feed into to chop up even more. I don’t mind the mist I just don’t want to clearly see it across the room


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## Geoffrey Rea (23 Jun 2021)

One week:





Still shedding the emersed growth. Will let things grow for another week or two before cutting anything.


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## Deano3 (23 Jun 2021)

amazing growth


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## Geoffrey Rea (23 Jun 2021)

Cheers @Deano3

Not a clue what I’m doing with regards to the Dutch style but it’s all very exciting 😂 Run towards your weaknesses I guess.

Currently just monitoring growth rates of each species in the setup so we know what to expect for trimming throughout each month.


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## Nick potts (23 Jun 2021)

That is some impressive growth for one week, those lights are certainly doing there job 

Can't wait to see this one mature.


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## Libba (26 Jun 2021)

I can already tell this is going to be epic. Is the Dutch style combined with the wet/dry filter an homage to Tom Barr?


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## Geoffrey Rea (27 Jun 2021)

Think so @Libba even if it isn’t intentional.

Remember the first time reading Tom’s thread and it blew me away. Total inspiration and led to an upping of my game on this journey. It’s a decade old now and the hobby has changed a lot since then.

It’s this thread if anyone fancies a good read this evening.


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## Geoffrey Rea (5 Jul 2021)

Been away the last couple of weekends so the water changes haven’t been as stringent as the other ‘daily for the first month’ scapes.






Rooting is looking good though. Will reset the growth once we hit a month and get this thing rolling. It’s been the sort of lonely cousin in the house. Will bring it to life soon enough.

Once the light is turned up can get a reasonable estimate of growth rates of each species under the circumstances. Gonna be scissor happy, that’s for sure.


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## Geoffrey Rea (13 Jul 2021)

One month:





Super lazy trim and stock back in. Already got plans to switch out some species but letting everything settle for a bit. It’s all over the place for the time being.

Really liking the Ludwigia Tornado:





Propagating it along the back until there’s enough stems to make a decent bunch.

Will be making some exchanges with the 1200 for more colour and texture variation. Even with more colouring up of the current species it’s too similar from the middle to the back.

Pretty set on the Eriocaulon, Staurogyne repens and Pogostemon Helferi up front though. The latter two just need some height up the sides. The Lindernia rotundifolia would look cool as a rounded bush so is probably a keeper. Decided up front to sort the greener species first before adding in more colour. Can then mix in some of the more extreme colour contrasts from the species in the 1200:









See what’s what in another week or two.


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## Geoffrey Rea (25 Jul 2021)

Five weeks:









Sort of an intermediate post… This will be the second lazy trim since startup. Been busy and not quite found the time to sort this project properly. Had a slight tidy up this morning. Going for a switch around of species between the tanks when they’re due their water changes later this week:





From the 1200 will be pinching Macrandra, Rotala green and H’ra as well as the unnamed green stem at the back:









As for the 600… the Eriocaulon, Lindernia rotundifolia, Pogostemon helferi and Staurogyne repens are keepers for a permanent foreground. Just need the helferi and repens to gain some height towards the sides:





Will also be keeping the Rotala wallichii and Ludwigia ‘tornado’ albeit moving them. Everything else from there backwards is getting switched between tanks.

Have to say that the Dutch style is pleasantly difficult. Made many many errors with the initial planting. Hopefully improve the lane discipline with another crack at it this week.


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## Geoffrey Rea (28 Jul 2021)

Attempt number two… Hopefully more Dutch and less Donut this time:

















Aware there’s still a thinning out needed to define the species out, will get to this next week once everything has grown in a little. Thin out/strip back the P. helferi, S. repens and Eriocaulon for starters.

Replanting out the 1200 quickly after the poaching took priority as had both tanks in a ‘canal’ water state. Also didn’t have the heart to throw yet even more plants out after the current pile of leftover plants from the switch:





Dosing slightly different to the other tanks as running both ONF’s at 100%.

Daily:

0.5ppm N
1ppm P
8ppm K (approx)
0.0151 Fe (proxy for micros)

Water remineralised RO to <1KH and 5GH. Plain ADA Amazonia and a dozen root tabs. Tank now algae free at just shy of six weeks. Co2 running in the green, 2 hour ramp up and pH roughly between 6-6.5.

New plant list:

Blyxa japonica
Eriocaulon cinereum
Hottonia palustris 
Limnophila hippuridoides
Lindernia rotundifolia
Ludwigia palustris
Ludwigia tornado
Myriophyllum mattogrossense (small bunch for keepsake)
Mystery green plant with red buds at internodes
Pogostemon erectus
Pogostemon helferi 
Rotala green
Rotala H’ra
Rotala wallichii
Staurogyne repens

Ten species or less rule didn’t last long 🤭


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## John q (28 Jul 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Also didn’t have the heart to throw yet even more plants out after the current pile of leftover plants from the switch:


Lol it looks like a stall at a local farmers market. 

Tank looks amazing btw, definitely Dutch, not so much doughnut.


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## bazz (28 Jul 2021)

Hi Geoffrey,
Aquarium looks lovely but a question. Are your Eriocaulons Tropica 1-2-Grow?
The pot I bought consisted of very small ones (although plentiful) which when planted produced lots of flowers but the leaves slowly withered away apart from one which appears to be growing well.
The 2 Australe I purchased from Roland are also growing well so I'm unsure as the cause.
Many thanks!


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## Geoffrey Rea (28 Jul 2021)

Hey Bazz.

They are Tropica’s Eriocaulon cinereum 1-2-Grow offering yes. Not had great success with them before now either. 

This time they were planted into fresh soil and have been pulling the flowers out frequently. Seem to like this. They will flower frequently so it’s just a case of dunking your hand in and pulling them out as and when.


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## bazz (28 Jul 2021)

Thanks!
Will get another pot and try again with plenty of root tabs underneath and removing the flowers.
Cheers!


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## Geoffrey Rea (30 Jul 2021)

Quick snap of the White Clouds:





It’s rare they swim in any sort of formation. Didn’t keep it together for very long but looked cool whilst it lasted.


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## Geoffrey Rea (6 Aug 2021)

Decent shot of the R. macrandra a week after the tops were cut off and planted:





If you look closely you can see the algae that has set up shop on the lower leaves since the plants were transplanted. This won’t occur on the new growth going forwards (or upwards). Have repeatedly found after planting tops that once the roots get stuck in proper the lower leaves clear up with decent pearling. Oxygen clears it off the leaf and/or the plant defends its surface... one for the boffins rather than yours truly.

The point is you can watch this happen with each topping and replanting. No need for amano shrimp etc. Just a process whilst the stem is on the back foot and an indirect means of estimating how the new roots are getting on without X-ray vision. 


Also… additional species added:

Cuphea anagalloidea
Hyptis lorentziana
Rotala Pearl
Syngonanthus macrocaulon


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Aug 2021)

Seems this tank is here for a good shakedown of all the trouble shooting knowledge you acquire. 

So far…

BGA:





This came early on. Plants from the grow houses had BGA on the rockwool. Knew this was a lottery going in and at startup things went well. Then it appeared in the substrate and on the leaves closest to the substrate tank-wide with rapid spreading.

Treatment:

Excess light blocked out but all other settings left. Phyton-Git Sol injected along the glass beneath the substrate, one capful of Phyton-Git Sol poured into the water column, daily water change for seven days with repeated application. Problem solved.

Next test… Green gain bottle. Old. Six drips required. On drip five the dispensing hole plastic thingy gave and half the bottle poured in 😂 😂 😂 

Diatoms.

Treatment:

Same settings and a couple of water changes then all was well.

Next…

Electrical work on the house. Consumer board switched off in the morning. On turning the power back on the Co2 timer stayed in the off position with nearly a full photo period with no input and high light. 

Oedogonium and Rhizoclonium; both commonplace with low Co2 and lean water column dosing. Pretty much on everything tank wide.

Treatment:

Make sure Co2 is actually on, settings the same. Daily glutaraldehyde, influx of Yellow Sakura shrimp and one Otto from the 1200 to keep healthy growth clean and growing.

Eleven days on:





Eriocaulon bit the bullet. Can live with that, replaced with some AR mini from the 1200. The main concern was the new Cuphea anagalloidea, Hyptis lorentziana, Rotala Pearl and Syngonanthus macrocaulon. They barely had time to root before the onslaught but seem to have dealt with it admirably.

Continuing with the daily Glutaraldehyde for a little longer until convinced the tank is in the clear. Downside is with the Glutaraldehyde the plants are creeping more than desired, but a small quibble really.

The Hyptis is beginning to show its purple leaf form:





The Rotala Pearl has knocked out a ton of aerial roots in panic but pretty sure this will calm down once we’ve got it into a steady environment.

Rest of the tank is on the mend:





In an obscure kind of way it’s been nice to be kept on your toes so far. Everything else in the house is running like clockwork so can’t complain. But from this point forward it would be nice to just concentrate on planting out a decent Dutch. On that point, it is a rather difficult goal. Respect to those that do.


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## John q (20 Aug 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> On that point, it is a rather difficult goal. Respect to those that do.


Rehab is for quitters, I look forward to you turning this blip around. (And let's be honest, if you can't, God help the rest of us" lol..


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## Libba (21 Aug 2021)

Nice work saving the tank. I was recently reading through the journal for Barr's "Dutch something or other" in which he left home for 10 days and the CO2 stopped after 2. The state of his tank when he got back is enough to make you cry and laugh at the same time. After seeing him save that I've realised anything is possible if you have the determination.

The purple leaves on the Hyptis look stunning. I can't wait to see what this tank looks like in a month or so.


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## Geoffrey Rea (21 Aug 2021)

John q said:


> And let's be honest, if you can't, God help the rest of us" lol..



It’s true… if this idiot can do it, anyone can. But haven’t yet, so will shut my gob.

Being honest @John q not yet figured out what makes a ‘wow’ Dutch. Seen a couple that just look wonderful but unsure why, that’s why they’re wonderful. Fallen into everyone else’s collectoritis on this one with way too many species rather than exemplary specimens.



Libba said:


> After seeing him save that I've realised anything is possible if you have the determination.



Only ever seen one tank that was not salvageable @Libba .

It’s pretty difficult to make life untenable.


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## plantnoobdude (21 Aug 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> It’s true… if this idiot can do it, anyone can. But haven’t yet, so will shut my gob.
> 
> Being honest @John q not yet figured out what makes a ‘wow’ Dutch. Seen a couple that just look wonderful but unsure why, that’s why they’re wonderful. Fallen into everyone else’s collectoritis on this one with way too many species rather than exemplary specimens.
> 
> ...


perhaps it's because you don't really have a main "street"?
these two articles are very good reads if you haven't seen them yet.








						Tips And Tricks For Dutch Style Aquascaping
					

Tips and Tricks for Dutch Style Aquascaping




					barrreport.com
				







__





						Dutch Style Aquarium. | Bart Laurens
					





					www.bart-laurens.nl
				



cheers,


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## Geoffrey Rea (21 Aug 2021)

🙏🏽 @plantnoobdude


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## JellieTG (24 Aug 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> One month:
> 
> View attachment 171820
> 
> ...


Looks great! The reds aren't the best but give me old school dutch vibes! I like it


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## Geoffrey Rea (13 Sep 2021)

This is the end for this project.

Started open minded about the Dutch style, but simply cannot muster a genuine care for this setup. Total respect for the style and all it involves though. Sometimes it’s just best to be honest when your heart isn’t in it.

Rather than showing prolonged neglect towards the tank, will be paying the plants forward to someone who’s starting a new setup this week to get them where they’re going.

As for the sumped AS600… it’s going marine:





Will be setting it up as a reef tank alongside the 1200. Can almost hear people shouting “traitor” already 😂


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## CooKieS (13 Sep 2021)

Traitor! 😂


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## PARAGUAY (13 Sep 2021)

😪


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## plantnoobdude (13 Sep 2021)

Can’t believe you’re going to the salty side, traitor! I’m sure whatever you come up with will be excellent though! Certainly gives me ideas…


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## Wolf6 (14 Sep 2021)

In all fairness, dutch style (pretty much what I grew up with) never really did it for me either. Its too artificial and just seems like an expression of mans need to control everything rather then something natural. Whatever your reasons for quitting it, I get it, if your heart isnt in it. Please do share your progress on the salty side here as well!


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## Wookii (14 Sep 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Will be setting it up as a reef tank alongside the 1200. Can almost hear people shouting “traitor” already 😂



UKAPS members march to @Geoffrey Rea's house . . .


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## Geoffrey Rea (14 Sep 2021)

Wolf6 said:


> In all fairness, dutch style (pretty much what I grew up with) never really did it for me either. Its too artificial and just seems like an expression of mans need to control everything rather then something natural. Whatever your reasons for quitting it, I get it, if your heart isnt in it.



Ultimately what you’ve said hits the nail on the head, it’s at the extreme end of controlled style in the hobby. You have to try these things on for size to see if they suit you or not though. Some love it and are dab hands at the Dutch style, kudos to them. Found out that personally, prefer that unexpected growth into a different area, chaotic mix, healthy jungle, competition and survival strategies playing out. The fish species here do too. Manicuring a tank relentlessly is the polar opposite of this.



Wolf6 said:


> Please do share your progress on the salty side here as well!



Will do (although I can see @Wookii is assembling the angry mob as we speak 😂)

Will be a nice mix between the freshwater AS1200, 45F shallow and terrarium alongside a saltwater reef tank and seasonal summer tub projects. Lot’s of contrasting environments to observe and learn from (and to join in the conversation about on the forum).

You asked in the UG thread @Wolf6 “is it at all entertaining for you or is it just a project/need to find out?” It’s a question that’s been sat in the background of my mind since you asked. The initial answer was crass and self centred. On reflection, remember as a kid sitting in the car for hours on end just to get to that kind shop keeper/fish breeder that used to give up hours and hours of their time to share experience and improve your chances at aquarium keeping (in a pre-internet age). It was passion driven conversation, between enthusiastic people who only stopped talking as it was time to go. Nowadays we have the internet forum and figure being on here to share any useful experience possible is a way of paying that kindness forward and serving the community.


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## Deano3 (16 Sep 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Ultimately what you’ve said hits the nail on the head, it’s at the extreme end of controlled style in the hobby. You have to try these things on for size to see if they suit you or not though. Some love it and are dab hands at the Dutch style, kudos to them. Found out that personally, prefer that unexpected growth into a different area, chaotic mix, healthy jungle, competition and survival strategies playing out. The fish species here do too. Manicuring a tank relentlessly is the polar opposite of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And we all hugely appreciate your sharing , i have been busy latley and just seen this, glad your delving into the salty side as i would love to learn about that side of the hobby butwhen go on forums etc just seems so overwhelming and out of my depth. Dont get me wrong i still have so much to learn on the fresh side but salty side would he great to know the basics etc so a jurnal of some sort would be great and sure very popular and helpful for everyone  keep up the good work Geoffrey  

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## Karmicnull (16 Sep 2021)

Deano3 said:


> a jurnal of some sort would be great



Have some seaweed in the corner of the tank.  Then there's no excuse for not having a UKAPS journal!


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## Geoffrey Rea (20 Sep 2021)




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## Garuf (20 Sep 2021)

Sooooooooooo…
…that drop checker is saying things aren’t getting “that” salty? 😈


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## Geoffrey Rea (24 Sep 2021)

Garuf said:


> Sooooooooooo…
> …that drop checker is saying things aren’t getting “that” salty? 😈



Nope, definitely no identity crisis:


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## not called Bob (28 Sep 2021)

is that real reef rock, or what ever its called?   I had  Aquaroche so it took a few months to colour up


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## Geoffrey Rea (28 Sep 2021)

not called Bob said:


> is that real reef rock, or what ever its called?   I had  Aquaroche so it took a few months to colour up



Man made rock from TMC @not called Bob 





Looks like it’s covered in coralline algae but will be a while before it’s coated with the real deal. Live rock seems a distant memory these days, but at least we’re into sustainable practices as the standard now.


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## Wookii (28 Sep 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Man made rock from TMC @not called Bob
> 
> View attachment 174825
> 
> Looks like it’s covered in coralline algae but will be a while before it’s coated with the real deal. Live rock seems a distant memory these days, but at least we’re into sustainable practices as the standard now.



Have to say, it looks very realistic!


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## not called Bob (29 Sep 2021)

Geoffrey Rea said:


> Man made rock from TMC @not called Bob
> 
> View attachment 174825
> 
> Looks like it’s covered in coralline algae but will be a while before it’s coated with the real deal. Live rock seems a distant memory these days, but at least we’re into sustainable practices as the standard now.


I made some to go under the shop brought, took a few months in the loo tank to be sure the lime was fully washed out, so much easier just buying shapes to fit and not rummaging in the live rock vats


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## DeepMetropolis (2 Oct 2021)

Very interested to see how this develops. Always had a soft spot for marine tanks but I like the green of fresh water more. And I won't think it is wise for me and my wallet to jump in to that rabithole.


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## Fiske (2 Oct 2021)

DeepMetropolis said:


> Very interested to see how this develops. Always had a soft spot for marine tanks but I like the green of fresh water more. And I won't think it is wise for me and my wallet to jump in to that rabithole.


Yeah, I need a new expensive hobby like a hole in the head. Sticking with freshwater, thank you very much. But damn


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