# Ram. Advice appreciated



## Lauris (26 Mar 2015)

Hi!

I'm not an expert in fish at all. So I really would like to ask for an advice 
Can someone more experienced help to sex these? 

they look the same to me in this pic: 





and if I'm looking at the fins - they are exact same on both (or probably it's just me)

only two things I noticed are bit different (but thats again might be just me)

1. The one on left is more pale in color
2. The one on left has more like the black covered with blue dots

thanks


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## alto (27 Mar 2015)

The (tail) edge of the dorsal fin is rounded on the left fish (more typical of female), more angular on the right fish (looks a definite male to me)

Of course this is a single photo, so try to get more photos.


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## Kev_M (27 Mar 2015)

More pictures would be helpful but based on that picture alone I'd say they're both male. Does the one on the left have bright blue spots inside the large black blotch on its side? If so, it's female.


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

http://www.aquaeden.co.uk/how_to_sex_german_blue_rams.html

Left female, Right male.

I think photo is very good and adding more wont clear anything.


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## Lauris (27 Mar 2015)

Jose,
thanks for link. great points made there.
the only thing is I don't see yet pink'iish belly
on female but that's i guess up to fish stress an they just need to settle in.

thanks


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## Jose (27 Mar 2015)

Lauris said:


> the only thing is I don't see yet pink'iish belly



I believe girls get a red belly when in mating behaviour. So not always. After some weeks if they are happy one of them is surely going to develop it.


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## dw1305 (27 Mar 2015)

Hi all, 
They look really good.

Mike Wise says it is only the blue spangles in the humeral spot that allow you to <"differentiate between sexes">. Basically the female has blue spangles in the black spot and the male doesn't.

cheers Darrel


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## EnderUK (27 Mar 2015)

I always go with the colour, male fish are nearly always more colourful  Great picture.


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## alto (27 Mar 2015)

Mike Wise is ...... well  wise


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## Lauris (6 Apr 2015)

Hi all. One week since I introduced them in my setup. Noticed few behaviour issues. The bigger one is chasing around the smaller one. When it happens the smaller one instantly loses its colours. So mainly during the day my female (if I'm and you guys are right that I actually have a pair) stays pale. When feeding time female colors up nicely but again once male starts its game - female looses dark colours in no time. Is it normal? It's just because male tries to settle in? Or they are trying to pair up? Like getting just to each other? I have no worries about male. He became in very nice and juicy colour and looks like a beast. Female is I'm worried about. Will try to take some snaps in few moments

I am planted!


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## alto (6 Apr 2015)

Any chance you can move "her" over to another tank for a week or so to clarify if "she" really is a she ...
 though if this is a female, I'd prefer to move the male out, let her settle for a week or two (she should begin to display nice color most of the time - if fish remains pale, then I'd suspect health issues), then add the male back in.

(your spec 19 would be fine short term as it is a nice long tank - I'd be inclined to move Rocky the Betta into the main tank with the supposed female & have that confident male ram doing the moving about between tanks)


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## Lauris (6 Apr 2015)

not the best pics, but you can see the color difference
her



him




both


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## Lauris (6 Apr 2015)

as I said, the weird thing is when "she" gets food, at feeding time, 
color turns nearly as much as good as on the bossy male
but once he plays his game, "she"loses it in seconds

I'm afraid to move rocky in this tank will not be a great idea as he
is one beast and even snails for him are to suspicious. good idea but
not an option

the other thing what came up to my mind just now I did a major cut back
on my tall plants in left corner. It was only decent place female could hide
and she did like that corner once got sick of male games.
also she was less visible there for him. Also colors were better last week
This leads me think male is just getting territorial and trying to show off
who is the boss. And behaviour of "the boss" stresses her out.
there are two things I can come up with:
1 - exchange it to another pair, possibly already paired in LFS (seen one like last week, cuddling together)
2 - leave it as it is and see how it will end up. just no panic.


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## alto (6 Apr 2015)

I'd check with the shop, see if they still have a good selection of rams, if they have a pair that is spawning/preparing to spawn, see if you can swap your "pair"

You might also try adding in another female & see if she bonds with the male or reduces stress for your present female.

With most cichlids, you need a compatible pair rather than just a male fish & a female fish.


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## alto (6 Apr 2015)

Reading your new post, I'd switch these out for another pair if that's an easy possibility.
Just leaving the situation & with no hiding places, she may weaken from the stress ...  even though you don't see him constantly chasing her, the fact that she's using her "I'm not here" coloring the majority of the time, means she IS stressed, most of the time.


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## Lauris (7 Apr 2015)

Managed to capture video. I'm not the best camera man but you can see the behaviour. Today I noticed that female is shy but she tries to stick together. Also she tries to resist males behaviour. 

Maybe I just should give them a time and keep an eye on.

I am planted!


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## alto (7 Apr 2015)

The male is being quite good, her respiration rate seems fine, just watch that it doesn't increase too much & that she is eating, try to provide more "hiding" areas in the tank to encourage more swimming activity from her - eg, you can use suction cups (Eheim makes the "stickiest") to attach driftwood or java fern as temporary havens.

Does your lfs regularly stocks rams?

Your video is pretty decent!


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## Lauris (7 Apr 2015)

Yep. They have them all the time. Many of them. 

She is eating well. If the male tries to bully her on feeding time she can fight back to grab her bite. As I said the color comes on when feeding instantly. 

I think I need to figurate out something about hiding as the spot behind that wood piece is only resting spot for her. I will try to come up with something  over the weekend. 

I am planted!


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## alto (7 Apr 2015)

I'd go in to the shop & pick up a rosy bellied female & add her into the tank along with the additional hiding places


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## NC10 (7 Apr 2015)

Great pictures mate


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## Lauris (7 Apr 2015)

Thanks

Alto. In your opinion would be better (if I decide) to swap just a female or both. Either my male could just not like particular female or he does not like females in general 

I am planted!


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## alto (8 Apr 2015)

I like that male, he's actually very polite!
if you add at least 2 females, you'll improve the chance of a stable pair ... BUT even if they spawn, it's also possible that they'll begin fighting over the eggs/wigglers so keeping both females may work out best; there's a reason why it's recommended to always begin with a group of young rams (any cichlids) & allow "best" pairs to form/un-form.
It's also natural for these fish to spawn with different partners.


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## Lauris (8 Apr 2015)

Ok. Got the point. 

Meanwhile things are changing. This morning I did another observation. As usually I like to turn on my flaslight on phone, leave it on cover while taking breakfast before leaving to work. Female is in her full colours. This might be because shee feel safer at night. Pair playing around. Fins out. Rubbing side by side to each other and also trying to nip  (or kiss? Whatever I can call it) mouth to mouth. Female (again if she is a female) did resist and respond well to male behaviour. 

I must admit. This is the most interesting fish to observe I've ever had. I'm now quite curious of how their relationships will form 

I am planted!


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## Katch (8 Apr 2015)

alto said:


> I'd go in to the shop & pick up a rosy bellied female & add her into the tank along with the additional hiding places



This is bad advice - rams don't do well in a trio at all; the third wheel, whether male or female will quickly get bullied to death.


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## Lauris (8 Apr 2015)

My guess would be it was suggested to put in 2 females and see which one male preffer better and remove the other one after. Like just for the pairing/matching purposes. 

I am planted!


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## stu_ (8 Apr 2015)

Lauris said:


> Ok. Pair playing around. Fins out. Rubbing side by side to each other and also trying to nip  (or kiss? Whatever I can call it) mouth to mouth.



Google "lip locking"


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## Lauris (8 Apr 2015)

stu_ said:


> Google "lip locking"


Thanks.

Now it make sense. Looks like I'm gonna visit lfs this wekend to exchange female. I guess that's the only option I have. Or maybe even get a smaller size male as well

I am planted!


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## dougstar (9 Apr 2015)

I have had a few pairs of rams, it looks to me that they are both male. If you have two male fish the less dominant will lose its colours when faced with a threat. Females have pink bellies and are half the sizes of males. He will spend most of his time chasing a female or less dominant male. As small as they are they are aggressive


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## alto (9 Apr 2015)

Katch said:


> This is bad advice - rams don't do well in a trio at all; the third wheel, whether male or female will quickly get bullied to death.


experiences vary ... mine has been better an unmatched trio than an unmatched "pair" ... if a pair forms, then the third can be removed ... or not ... depending on the tank situation & the pair aggression, also individual levels of aggression ...

It's a good idea to have a spare tank or "net breeder" to remove the extra fish to

Lip locking can be a prelude to pairing so I'd just keep monitoring  (respiration rate, activity, feeding, color).

2 males & 1 female may result in both males hassling the female, so I prefer to add an extra female or try another pair ... I'd hesitate to have 2 pair in this tank as I feel it's too open & I'd hesitate to have 2 pair in a 60cm tank (though I know some have success with it).

The Krib articles - well worth reading


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## dougstar (9 Apr 2015)

here you can see how much bigger the male rams can with this pair of blue rams


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## alto (9 Apr 2015)

But look at the wild pair shown on the Seriously Fish entry, I've had wild type (no idea on the provenance of the fish) & "german gold rams" where males & females were of very similar size
(& not that bizarre giganto ram that I see for sale in my local shops ... local shop keeps bringing in the "balloon" versions, stating that normal body type rams are too large ... I guess they don't realize that the SL is only 35 - 40 mm on wild rams).

Nice rams!


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## dougstar (9 Apr 2015)

balloon rams are also great little fish and will brighten any tank


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## Lauris (9 Apr 2015)

alto said:


> experiences vary ... mine has been better an unmatched trio than an unmatched "pair" ... if a pair forms, then the third can be removed ... or not ... depending on the tank situation & the pair aggression, also individual levels of aggression ...
> 
> It's a good idea to have a spare tank or "net breeder" to remove the extra fish to
> 
> ...


Ok. Went through the FAQ. so far what I have is still not clear. It might be, it might not (do I have a pair or not. maybe its just the female isn't ready yet. Maybe  not. Lol). I dunno if that guy do respond anymore on emails but I put together my sad story and emailed few pics and video. So I'm hoping to get some response. Will wait. It's not an easy fish I have. Not at all so far. Lol 

I am planted!


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## alto (9 Apr 2015)

Iain S just posted some new photos - including a very nice ram duo

I don't think the Krib is active anymore but you can start up a thread on Apistogramma.com which seems to running under Mike Wise - I linked a M ramirezi topic with great photos


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## Lauris (9 Apr 2015)

Thanks again. I went on the forum. Will wait for advice there
In the main time took another video of feeding time where it's clearly visible how well she can turn on true colours



Sorry for peppa pig "soundtrack" 

I am planted!


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## Chrisvx220 (10 Apr 2015)

I used to breed a lot of cichlids and plecs.
Both of yours are males imho, the more colourful one is the dominant fish and the other is just the weaker less dominant fish. He will try to colour up and become dominant when away from the other male and then become dismissive and lose colour when the other male comes near. Also at feeding time the dominant male is interested in food and so becomes less assertive, they are both happy as Larry at feeding time hence the chance for both to colour up temporarily.

Trade the smaller one in for a nice plump female with a rosy belly of which you can't mistake for a female


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## alto (10 Apr 2015)

Chrisvx220 said:


> Both of yours are males imho,


I agree that the lack of rosy belly is notable BUT this fish does display the blue spangles inside the humeral spot which is indicative of female even when all other expected characteristics are absent ...
I'd still be looking to change up the fish in question though, as it's not unusual for 1male + 1 female to NOT equal a "pair"

If the shop is agreeable, I'd be picking up a couple of females, then returning as needed.



(of course it's also possible that these fish were hormone treated if from a commercial large scale production farm, or exposed to antibiotics/antifungals etc some of which can render sensitive fish sterile - for several months or permanently ... though Lauris did mention that these were sold as "breeding quality" & shop is experienced)


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## dw1305 (10 Apr 2015)

Hi all,





alto said:


> BUT this fish does display the blue spangles inside the humeral spot which is indicative of female


 Mike Wise thinks it is likely to be a female.

cheers Darrel


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## Lauris (10 Apr 2015)

Ok.

So. Decision carried out. Thanks to majority of advices replaced my suspected female with female. Was not easy. LFS I got the pair from did not had any in stock. Called in to my other trusted place and man there was happy to do exchange it for female. He had about 7 gbr's in one tank and only one was female. Spent there about 30min with a bit of feeding we managed to confirm it is a female 4sure. Just to be on the safe side. She displayed a noticable pink belly. Also he confirmed the one I took in for exchange by his believe was male. 

This female is  half of my current male size. 

Introduced in my tank. Shows no coloring now. Male did not miss a chance to demonstrate who is the boss in this  house. 

So I will keep monitoring. And will keep this updated. I'll wait til she will settle in (what I hope she will) and do some photoshoot then

Thanks for all of your opinions. Have a feeling I m not living this alone.lol

I am planted!


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## Lauris (13 Apr 2015)

I guess my male in general is very bossy, or just hates females by some reason
new pore thing is chased away.. maybe it will change. but I thing I will add 1 more female 
in a week or so. might be an option.


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## dougstar (14 Apr 2015)

My balloon rams are like that he will chase all day long. Having a male and female is not necessarily saying it's a pair. Your rams look like great specimens


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## Lauris (26 Apr 2015)

Update:
Failed to accept second female. My picky male was more neutral   to second female and still managed to nip her tale a bit.

Today introduced another female to him. Looks like he felt in love from a first time. As he refused 2 females before I never seen him acting like now. He just keeps dancing around her. Giving juicy colours I never seen on him before. Keeps every other fish away in safe distance. Shows up his fins and colour to new gf. hope he will not get over and I finally will see a matched female by his taste.
This is how he introduced himself. Was not shy to show who's daddy in this tank.lol



Never seen him bothering about ember tetras and my only puffer. Now he keeps her in safe distance from everything that moves. Both females ar clashing but he does it pick up fairly quick, stands in the middle and nips away other female (the one  he refused to). It looks like I'm taking back her to lfs asap.

Will keep observe. Fingers crossed to for them to form in nice pair.

I am planted!


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## Lauris (2 May 2015)

Update:
Successfully paired 
Female (few minutes before laid eggs) 





and happy male




not the best quality video, not easy to reach position of their own choice where to lay eggs


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## Lauris (6 May 2015)

Ok. So forst parenting failed. Fry  just varnished. 

And this is when my gbr gets bored. He gets bit bossy



I am planted!


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