# Stocking Levels



## AlanRR (30 Mar 2019)

Hi All

Is there a rough guide to stocking levels anywhere? I have a small 64l tank with 10x filter flow and would like to get some idea of how many creatures I can add. Ideally I’d like a mix of shrimp and fish but am concerned that the tank might not be big enough. I don’t want to overcrowd things and would prefer to understock rather than overstock. 

Cheers

Alan


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## Kezzab (30 Mar 2019)

Hi, it's a bit iffy but 1cm of fish per litre (or is it 2 litres?) of water is a rough guide. Depends a bit on the fish.

Small shoal of something small, say 10 embers, plus a couple of something slightly bigger like dwarf cichlids, maybe a couple more. That would work I think.

K


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## tam (30 Mar 2019)

http://www.aqadvisor.com/

You could easily mix shrimp and fish in there, although you'd want to go for a smaller fish species. There is quite a range of 'nano' species that would be suitable.


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## AlanRR (30 Mar 2019)

Thanks both, cool link as a rough guide. 

At this stage I’m trying to pick a maintenance crew and leave some potential to add a few other fish later. Amano shrimp and Otos seem to get good wraps (perhaps 2 of each) but maybe I’d be better with smaller cherry shrimp?


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## akwarium (30 Mar 2019)

Otos should be kept in groups, and or not that easy to keep alive. They are quite sensitive for changes, so not the best choice for a freshly setup tank.
Amano shrimp are the best cleaners, better then cherry shrimp so you would need to ad much more of those to get the same effect. I would go for 6 or 7 amano shrimp, they add very little bioload to the tank, so doesn't really compromise on the amount of fish you can add later on.

Amano shrimp sometimes try to escape when you add them, once settled they are usually fine. If you have an open top tank, keep the water level a bit lower for the first week or so.


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## AlanRR (30 Mar 2019)

akwarium said:


> Otos should be kept in groups, and or not that easy to keep alive. They are quite sensitive for changes, so not the best choice for a freshly setup tank.
> Amano shrimp are the best cleaners, better then cherry shrimp so you would need to ad much more of those to get the same effect. I would go for 6 or 7 amano shrimp, they add very little bioload to the tank, so doesn't really compromise on the amount of fish you can add later on.
> 
> Amano shrimp sometimes try to escape when you add them, once settled they are usually fine. If you have an open top tank, keep the water level a bit lower for the first week or so.



Thanks @akwarium sounds like good advice


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## alto (30 Mar 2019)

Shrimp should be kept in groups!!!
this seems to overlooked nowadays, but recommended “shoal” for any shrimp species is ~10 - they are social beasties 
Note that “japonica” or “Amano” shrimp are larger and females can be quite aggressive (and easily hit 5cm & much prefer fish food is it’s on offer); look very closely to be certain that the shrimp are actually Amano’s and not a similar species 
I prefer cherry shrimp in smaller tanks - Tiger shrimp are more dedicated algae eaters but often more expensive and more sensitive etc) 


In a tank of this size, I usually suggest various snails + shrimp as clean up crew

If shrimp won’t be compatible with preferred fish species, then 3-5 otos (they are social fish despite being tolerant (as in will survive) but choose a smaller Oto species (these fish are often misidentified on shipping lists and thus in shops) - in general the more the merrier BUT if you end up with a group of Otos that resist added foods (various vegetable, algae tabs etc) then a 60 litre tank is unlikely to support more than 3 of these fish 

I don’t find Otos to be particularly sensitive once they’ve recovered from the stress of capture, shipping, holding, shipping, holding, shipping (they definitely fare better when this chain is shorter as often they are not fed appropriately in holding tanks) ... they should be active in the shop tank and feeding or slight roundness to belly
If very thin, they often won’t recover as extended lack of food seems more detrimental to algae/ aufwuchs grazers digestive system  

A decent read
https://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/features/articles/keeping-otocinclus-catfish-in-the-aquarium


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## tam (30 Mar 2019)

Yep, Otos are great, but they need space and groups so it's a waste of capacity to just add them as clean up. Go for a nerite snail/shrimp. Think about what fish you want to keep before picking amano v. cherry. Cherry will limit the mouth size as they are smaller.


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## alto (31 Mar 2019)

Amano shrimp (any shrimp) are as deserving of space and numbers as Otos 

I suspect you won’t go much wrong following Seriously Fish guidelines
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/otocinclus-macrospilus/
(though must admit I rarely keep Otos, they apear so much “happier” (ie bright and active with interesting behaviours) in 120cm tanks in groups of 50 and more 

If you keep fish that are shrimp hunters, shrimp, including Amano, will hide and not contribute much as “cleaning crew” 

First tanks tend to be learning experiences so finding a shop with healthy stock that will accept your (healthy) returns is useful 
Even with the best advice/consideration it’s not unusual to end up with some unsuitable tankmates (which for some leads to multi-tank-syndrome  )


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## AlanRR (31 Mar 2019)

Thanks guys, more good advice. I like the idea of the Tiger shrimp and pro-shrimp say they like soft water which is ideal for my area (unfortunately they are out of stock). I will give the type of fish I want some thought. I was hoping to have an unheated tank (house sits at around 20c) so that will presumably limit my options.


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## alto (31 Mar 2019)

Sorry (later realized) I didn’t really answer your stocking query 

This kit isn’t available in my country so I just looked quickly at online comments - some don’t like the filter as it’s open top and livestock kept leaping in 
but perhaps this has changed? 

Shrimp love to climb into nice cozy filters!
You can do a mix of tiger and cherry shrimp (mix of colours is fine re group population dynamic but try to do 8-10 individuals of each species), note that males usually remain significantly smaller than female shrimp 

Generally a larger number of a single fish species looks “better” than fewer numbers of several species - and you will usually observe more complex behaviours 
But it’s also fun to explore various species - they can behave/appear so differently in a home aquarium, especially with plants 

If you pick up juvenile fish, it’s easy to add 10-20 in one go (I’m assuming stock will be limited to “small, slender” fish - deeper bodied fish are easily equivalent to 3-4 “small slenders”)
I’m also assuming plants will have established, with shrimp/snail added next, and finally fish - by then filter will easily cope with sudden fish introduction *especially* if frequent water changes for a couple weeks thereafter 

There are small fish which will thrive within the confines of a 60cm (long) aquarium, there are similar sized fish which need larger tanks to really thrive ... 
Maybe list some species you like 

Note that when adding new fish to established tanks, it’s alway possible to also introduce new pathogens, so keep an anti-parasite remedy on hand AND have done a water change the day before, then increased water change frequency for the next couple weeks (clean water is the best defence)


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## tam (31 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Amano shrimp (any shrimp) are as deserving of space and numbers as Otos



I meant that in a fish and shrimp tank (any tank really), adding a fish you don't particularly want just as clean up wastes part of your overall fish capacity - the shrimps already designated space will do the same work anyway so pick just fish you really want to stock and have a bigger shoal of them.


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## AlanRR (31 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Sorry (later realized) I didn’t really answer your stocking query
> 
> This kit isn’t available in my country so I just looked quickly at online comments - some don’t like the filter as it’s open top and livestock kept leaping in
> but perhaps this has changed?
> ...



Some great advice there thanks for taking the time alto. I have replaced the original internal filter with an external Eheim that is more powerful. I have a prefilter on the intake that should keep shrimp out.

I have a bit of algae starting to establish itself on the rocks and wood which is why I was starting to think about shrimp. I am still experiencing a lot of melt 3 weeks after setup though so perhaps I need to wait longer before adding anything.

I don’t have a local fish store and find picking species off the web a poor second. I hope to get time one weekend in the near future to drive and see some species options. I would prefer a school of smaller fish than 1 or 2 larger ones. Do you have any suggestions?


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## Michael Cosgrove (31 Mar 2019)

Hi @AlanRR,

I second this one (Ember Tetra):


Kezzab said:


> say 10 embers



See this link for some species info: https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/databank/ember-tetra-

I am going to be stocking those myself when I (finally) get to rescape my tank. I will also be doing a small school of Celestial Pearl Danio (aka Galaxy Rasbora).

I saw a tank setup at @Aquarium Gardens with both those fish and they looked great.

Here is a video which includes that tank and also shows the fish (go to 2:45) for that specific tank:



They have other videos with more detail on the tank (and others) but I'm not sure if you can see the fish very well. If you want links, just ask.

For cleanup, I have Nerite snails and will be buying Neocaradina shrimp (not sure which colour yet). Other shrimps like those mentioned above are better but I want species that I like and neo's are the easiest for beginners as far as I know so far. I am a beginner. I will also be adding either Otocinclus (different species available) which I prefer but should be kept in larger groups that I can accommodate (I think) or, more likely, a few Siamese Algae Eater but they can get bigger than I really want!!

I have also toyed with the idea of adding a few Assassin Snails but as I want to keep the Nerite's, I will manage "pest" snails with manual removal and Gastropex.

All the livestock links are to Maidenhead Aquatics. I have no affiliation with them.  As a kicking off point, that is a good start for your research.

Have a look at the following forum for LFS: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/where-to-buy-in-the-north-east.30/ and / or place a post there for other members to advise on where you can buy. If you mention your nearest town, that would help.


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## Jayefc1 (31 Mar 2019)

I have 5 emder tetra and 5 pearl dannios with 5 Otos in my 45p about 35ltr with about 20 cherry shrimps and there is no problem with the bio load and its kept very clean


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## AlanRR (31 Mar 2019)

Thanks @Michael Cosgrove, it amazes me how generous people can be with their time. Some great info and links there. I’m not sure my wife is going to let me keep watching those videos though, I haven’t even finished setting up my tank and already I have tank envy!

The maidenhaed site has a lot of good info and it turns out they have a store in a garden centre only about 45mins away so i‘ll try and get there to see if they have any of the fish you and @Jayefc1 mention.  I definitely think I’ll give the nerites a go too. I assume they just graze the algae and not the plants?

Thanks for the info on your stocking levels @Jayefc1, it is really helpful to see what other people have in small setups. You seem to be maintaining quite a variety!


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## Jayefc1 (31 Mar 2019)

Nerites will leave little white eggs across your hard scape or they do in my sons tank just so you are aware


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## akwarium (31 Mar 2019)

alto said:


> Shrimp should be kept in groups!!!
> this seems to overlooked nowadays, but recommended “shoal” for any shrimp species is ~10 - they are social beasties
> Note that “japonica” or “Amano” shrimp are larger and females can be quite aggressive (and easily hit 5cm & much prefer fish food is it’s on offer); look very closely to be certain that the shrimp are actually Amano’s and not a similar species
> I prefer cherry shrimp in smaller tanks - Tiger shrimp are more dedicated algae eaters but often more expensive and more sensitive etc)



. I do not dispute that they are social creatures, but 10 seems to be equally random as 8 for shoaling fish, or 12 for schooling fish.  In my opinion the right size of a group depends greatly on the tank size (and the species of course). The density is more relevant then the total number. For example: ad 20 cardinal tetras to a 1000 liter tank and they will appear skittish,  ad them to a 120 liter tank and they might thrive.


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## alto (31 Mar 2019)

Actually 8 is not a random fish number but is based upon rasbora sp behavioural studies - 7 & fewer fish exhibited fewer “secondary” (ie more complex, structured) behaviours than 8 & more fish 
Of course 19 & more fish practising complex behaviour patterns tends to be even more dramatic  

The 12 I don’t know, except again some species I’ve kept display different behaviours when the shoal is 20+ fish vs 10-15 fish (eg, M kubotai, S axelrodi blue/green (different species but often sold interchangeably))

While I agree that fish density is important, it doesn’t preclude fish “desire” to be surrounded by like creatures - 5 green neon tetras in a planted 45cm aquarium will act differently than 15 green neons ... even if the 5 green neons are accompanied by 5 neon tetras & 5 cardinal tetras (not that I would personally keep any of these in a 45cm long aquarium )

The Shrimp number of 10, is from more educated shrimp keepers than I, certainly a larger group will increase the probability of both sexes and age range, also greater genetic diversity (if wild caught species) 
Shrimp sellers used to only guarantee shrimp survival (past live arrival) if at least 10 were purchased, listing stress as an important mortality factor


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## Michael Cosgrove (31 Mar 2019)

Hi @AlanRR,



AlanRR said:


> I assume they just graze the algae and not the plants?



Yes, they don't damage the plants. Mine have mostly gone for algae on hardscape and the glass but also on plants. On the hardscape, I could see in a couple of days where they had been! I only got two zebra's at first but now also have two Red ones - a Dot and a "Stripy"/Tiger. I was advised that 4 would be enough for my tank which is about 110L so you may only want two for yours. A pity in a way as I like them and want more!

Here's one "last" video for you on the snails' effect (you can tell your wife it is my fault!):


Remember though, the key is to find and address / minimise the source / cause for the algae and not simply treating the symptoms.



Jayefc1 said:


> Nerites will leave little white eggs across your hard scape or they do in my sons tank just so you are aware



Don't worry about the eggs - they need marine conditions to breed. So you are not replacing an algae problem with a snail problem.  Mine have not laid eggs yet so am not sure how much it will take to remove them. Hopefully not a big job .


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## AlanRR (1 Apr 2019)

Thanks @michael, I want some snails because I like the look of them so will start with just a couple and see how they go. I’d really like some native ramshorns but am worried about them taking over the tank as they will breed so nerites might be the safer option.


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## alto (4 Apr 2019)

Jayefc1 said:


> Nerites will leave little white eggs across your hard scape or they do in my sons tank just so you are aware


Some Nerite species are much more prolific in the egg decorating department
I’ve not seen any signs of egg deposits from _Clithon_ _corona_ (often sold in shops as small (horned) Nerite species, though they are usually identified as _Clithon_ on commercial lists)


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## alto (4 Apr 2019)

Michael Cosgrove said:


> Mine have not laid eggs yet so am not sure how much it will take to remove them.


They are the devil


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## alto (4 Apr 2019)

@AlanRR
I suspect the blue ramshorn snails are much less prolific than the wild type color
They are quite attractive snails


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## Jayefc1 (4 Apr 2019)

Yes it's the zebra ones in my sons tank that like to leave the eggs on the wood


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## AlanRR (4 Apr 2019)

Thanks for the suggestions. Those blue ramshorns look great. I‘ve put a couple of black helmet snails in for now as I was placing an order for a gravel cleaner an the shop had some in stock. They are a bit uninspiring but seem to be busy cleaning which is the main reason for getting them at this stage. I think a couple of blues would be a great addition though.

Now I’m trying to source some tiger shrimp as I think they look great. Most places seem to be out of stock just now though so I guess a lot of other people also like their looks!


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## alto (4 Apr 2019)

For whatever reason there seems to be much less availability of tiger shrimp on commercial fish farm lists - some companies seem to always have them listed while other companies never have them listed 
(though many farms will source special requests if customer meets a minimum order)

I believe Garnelenhaus will ship but depending on your location the shipping can be more/less direct
https://www.garnelenhaus.com/invertebrates/shrimp/
(no idea how prices compare or shipping costs)

Look for local shrimp breeders/clubs 
Ask if local shops are able to bring some in for you 

Meanwhile add some cherry shrimp you like, they will tidy up melting plant material and biofilm and some algae’s 
Feed sparingly - I don’t feed at all the first few days as I don’t like to trigger a moult in newly added shrimp (they are very sensitive during the 24-36h post moult so avoid water changes etc)
Once shrimp are established I don’t worry about moults and water changes
If your water is very soft, shrimp will need added GH to moult successfully longterm (lots of proprietary shrimp salt blends are available, also foods for various stages etc etc)


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## AlanRR (4 Apr 2019)

Thanks again alto. I’ve found someone on eBay selling some. He seems to have quite an operation going and has been mentioned on a few forums so hopefully the shrimp will be in good health.



alto said:


> Meanwhile add some cherry shrimp you like, they will tidy up melting plant material and biofilm and some algae’s
> Feed sparingly - I don’t feed at all the first few days as I don’t like to trigger a moult in newly added shrimp (they are very sensitive during the 24-36h post moult so avoid water changes etc)
> Once shrimp are established I don’t worry about moults and water changes
> If your water is very soft, shrimp will need added GH to moult successfully longterm (lots of proprietary shrimp salt blends are available, also foods for various stages etc etc)



I have a load of melt going on so they probably won’t need feeding for weeks  . The water company list my water as about 1GH. I have put a handful of fine oyster grit in the filter to try and increase the calcium in the water. Would I still need to add anything else?


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