# Planted tank sump design - need your feedback. :-)



## Zak Rafik

Hi everyone,
I'm in the midst of setting up a new tank 120 US gal /  455 litres and would like to use a sump for the filtration system.

I have googled for ideas for fresh water sumps setups and most of the results are for marine tank and even then all most freshwater sump photos are not showing due to Photobucket's change in photo sharing policy on forums. 

Anyway, I would really appreciate if you can take a look at the sump design I came up with and  interested to hear suggestions.

The details as below:

Main Display tank is 455 litres / 120 US gals. It will be ADA substrate planted tank.

Planing to use over flow box as shown below. Will be drilling the holes on the side of the tank once I have all the info at hand.

These are the things I want to clear before I drill the holes on my precious tank.

1. For a 455 litres / 120 US gals, what should the be the ideal size of the sum be?  
    2 ft / 3 ft..... ? I'm totally blank on this one.

2.
Are the position of the baffles A, B, C & D, in the right position for good water flow from the filter sock to the main pump? Do I need to remove or add a baffle in the sump design?

3.
I will have approx 100 US gal of actual water left in the main tank after taking away 10% - 15% for water displaced by substrate and stones,

And so....
The MEDIUM size overflow box, rated for tanks upto 100 gal and rated for 800 US GPH flow,
should give me a 8 time water turn over.

For the LARGE size overflow box, rated for tanks upto 100-150 gal, rated for 1000 US GPH flow,
should give me a 10 time water turn over.

Is the LARGE overflow box an over kill or will the MEDIUM size be right for me?

I do have other question to ask with regards to sumps but I don't want to shoot many questions all at once and make this post boring.

So, guys, shoot me some tips, suggestions or precautions I should take with the below sump design.

It will awesome if you can post photos of your freshwater planted tank sumps.

Thanks for your input. Have a great day ahead.


My sump design.







Medium size overflow box.





Large size overflow box.


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## foxfish

I think sumps offer major benefits. Consistent water level & skimmed surface in the main display tank. Auto top up (requires ball valve in sump). Hidden equipment.
& increased volume of total system are  a few but, in my mind the single most important factor is the incorporation of a trickle tower!
I would not advise pouring to much water down the overflow pipe as this will very effectively remove C02 from the main body of water.
I tend to run around 4 x tank volume into the sump.
You can run your C02 line directly into the return pump.


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## Zak Rafik

foxfish said:


> I think sumps offer major benefits. Consistent water level & skimmed surface in the main display tank. Auto top up (requires ball valve in sump). Hidden equipment.
> & increased volume of total system are  a few but, in my mind the single most important factor is the incorporation of a trickle tower!
> I would not advise pouring to much water down the overflow pipe as this will very effectively remove C02 from the main body of water.
> I tend to run around 4 x tank volume into the sump.
> You can run your C02 line directly into the return pump.



Awesome.
I can't agree with you any further on all the benefits highlighted by you for running a sump for big tank. Thanks for your feedback.

So a tank run with a sump can do with 4x turn over? I was always under the impression that the minimum should be 5X and the ideal would be 8X to 10X.

As for the co2 inline, I wish to just have it free in the sump (but tied near the return pump). I feel it's much easier to change or clean the diffuser when the time arises.

As for the baffles' positions are they ok?

And how about the sump size? I'm in the dark about this.

BTW, what your sump size like?


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## Zak Rafik

Just a quick update, I will be running the overflow box in a HERBIE OVERFLOW style. Please see diagram below.

As much as I badly want to run a overflow using the U tube where the tank is not drilled (less cost, no holes in my tank, quick plug & play convenience), something deep inside me is shouting at me to drop that plan.

I have had unknown and sudden power failures in my home 4 times this year. And also I plan to be traveling in the near future on business. I don't want to flood my living room floor.

That's why a Herbie overflow will give much peace of mind when I'm out of the country.




Image from Marine Depot.


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## zozo

foxfish said:


> I think sumps offer major benefits.



Dito!! Sumps are absolutely awsome.. Actualy from a filtering perspective doesn't mater much how you design them for a sufficiently planted and moderately stocked tank. Plants will take the best part of all anyway, that's why a canister is sufficient as well. So you can make 'm as simple as possible or as complex and overcomplicated as possible it can't realy be beter than sufficient anyway. The major benefit a sump has to offer is you can put all in tank equipment in the sump and since they are always a bit oversized compaired to a cannister they do ned less maintenance and are way easier to maintain and its a skimmer.

This is my creation and it runs like a charme for about 2 years now.

The first compartiment holds the heaters, it overflows with 3 spraybars, trickling over the sponges. Can't see them, are hidden in the plants growing on and in the sponge.
Than it trickles over the balls, additionaly goes through some biomedia, finaly water gets polished through a fine sponge and goes back to the tank. A trickle filter is most sufficient for nitrification etc. But if the tank is heavily planted it likely doesn't realy need it. But it surely is fun to build and you can't go wrong even if you don't realy need it. This is different with overstocked or non planted tanks.



 

The turn over is depended on the capacity of the max drainspeed from the overflow.. This is very dificult to calculate, so in the end it is a bit guessing and trail and error what you effectively realy can do. But 4 times is definitively sufficient for a low energy tank. Mine also has 3 or 4 times, dunno excactly.  The high techs 10 time turnover goal, is more aimed towards dead spots and co2 delivery than it is to filtering.. 

So what ever design you come up with, go with what feels comfortable to you.  And it looks good so far..


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## foxfish

I have run many sumps, marine, Koi & planted, my present 200l tank has a sort of sump but, it is situated at the same level as the display tank, behind a false wall.
I have never use a filter socks (they do look good though) I have just used synthetic sponge & bio balls in a trickle tower.
I did run a planted tank for many years by just feeding the end of the co2 pipe directly into the return pump & this worked very well, although the tank looked very fizzy, there was absolutely no maintenance required. ( no atomiser cleaning etc) 
I would not just let the C02 loose in the last chamber, you will oose a lot of it at the surface. You can just place the atomizer right in front of the pump so it all gets sucked in.
You can run any flow you like through a sump but the more you flow over the weir the more C02 will be lost. I use 3-4 time tank volume & subsidise any more flow required with a additional ' in tank' pumps.


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## Zak Rafik

zozo said:


> Dito!! Sumps are absolutely awsome.. Actualy from a filtering perspective doesn't mater much how you design them for a sufficiently planted and moderately stocked tank. Plants will take the best part of all anyway, that's why a canister is sufficient as well. So you can make 'm as simple as possible or as complex and overcomplicated as possible it can't realy be beter than sufficient anyway. The major benefit a sump has to offer is you can put all in tank equipment in the sump and since they are always a bit oversized compaired to a cannister they do ned less maintenance and are way easier to maintain and its a skimmer.
> 
> This is my creation and it runs like a charme for about 2 years now.
> 
> The first compartiment holds the heaters, it overflows with 3 spraybars, trickling over the sponges. Can't see them, are hidden in the plants growing on and in the sponge.
> Than it trickles over the balls, additionaly goes through some biomedia, finaly water gets polished through a fine sponge and goes back to the tank. A trickle filter is most sufficient for nitrification etc. But if the tank is heavily planted it likely doesn't realy need it. But it surely is fun to build and you can't go wrong even if you don't realy need it. This is different with overstocked or non planted tanks.
> 
> The turn over is depended on the capacity of the max drainspeed from the overflow.. This is very dificult to calculate, so in the end it is a bit guessing and trail and error what you effectively realy can do. But 4 times is definitively sufficient for a low energy tank. Mine also has 3 or 4 times, dunno excactly.  The high techs 10 time turnover goal, is more aimed towards dead spots and co2 delivery than it is to filtering..
> 
> So what ever design you come up with, go with what feels comfortable to you.  And it looks good so far..




Now! This is what I need. Thanks to the power of 100.

So I guess the position of the baffles don't matter that much as far as my design is concerned. Awesome!

I intend to use filter sock (200 micron) as the first line of defense to trap plants matter, leftover fish food and what not.
As for your mentioning "_turn over is depended on the capacity of the max drainspeed from the overflow_", I'm sure that can be controlled by having flow control valves on the pipes from the overflow box. Am I right to say this?

One point I forgot to mention in my 1st post is that for the time being, I plan to have med light demanding plants with EI dosing and injected Co2 but I'm definitely aiming for high light plants.
Do you think I can get away with 7X to 8X turn over ( using the Medium size overflow box - photo in my 1st post ) or must I aim for 10X when growing high light plants?
As for the fish, it will be the small fish from the Tetra family and lots of shrimps.

If you had a tank size which is similar to mine, what size for the sump would you plan? I'm curious to know.

You mentioned "trickle filter". Is it similar to wet/dry filter? Won't this lead to too much degassing of Co2?

BTW, I simply love the way you're growing plants in the sump are a too. We planted guys can't have enough space for our plants.
Definitely going to borrow your idea on this.

Thanks for taking the effort to write clear and relevant answers along with clearly labels photos. Thumbs up.


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## Zak Rafik

foxfish said:


> I have run many sumps, marine, Koi & planted, my present 200l tank has a sort of sump but, it is situated at the same level as the display tank, behind a false wall.
> I have never use a filter socks (they do look good though) I have just used synthetic sponge & bio balls in a trickle tower.
> I did run a planted tank for many years by just feeding the end of the co2 pipe directly into the return pump & this worked very well, although the tank looked very fizzy, there was absolutely no maintenance required. ( no atomiser cleaning etc)
> I would not just let the C02 loose in the last chamber, you will oose a lot of it at the surface. You can just place the atomizer right in front of the pump so it all gets sucked in.
> You can run any flow you like through a sump but the more you flow over the weir the more C02 will be lost. I use 3-4 time tank volume & subsidise any more flow required with a additional ' in tank' pumps.




Hi Foxfish,

Well, here in Singapore, filter socks are very cheap and I especially like the aspect where even tiny plant matters and what not get trapped in a 200 micron sock.

I fully understand what you meant by having not having the atomizer loose. Yes I intend to tie as near as possible to the inlet of the return pump. I will keep in mind your suggestion of just feeding the co2 tube directly into the return pump.
I can save much time by not cleaning inline diffusers...and the result is more time to enjoy the tank.

As for the "_subsidise any more flow required with a additional ' in tank' pumps_" I do have a Tunze brand power head model 6045 with adjustable flow control. It can do from 1500 l/h to 4500l/h.
BUT I would prefer not to use it as I like my tank to look sleek. That's the main reason I have decided on a sump. Get rid of all that clutter in the tank. I want just to marvel at lovely plants, fish and shrimps in my tank.

Please do share on what else I should look out for...example the type of return pump I can choose. I value all the members' inputs.

Take care.


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## zozo

Zak Rafik said:


> "_turn over is depended on the capacity of the max drainspeed from the overflow_", I'm sure that can be controlled by having flow control valves on the pipes from the overflow box. Am I right to say this?



That's a difficult part to say up front how it will work.. That's the trail and error part. Indeed a controll valve in the drain should be installed. But if there is overcapacity when fully opened you get a very nosie drain and or can break the syphon.. Than you can only reduse it to get the quietest drain possible and here you have to find the balance between flood and drain.. How it actualy will work depends on how the drain is connected to the sump, the route it has to go, the material used, dirt in the hose and or syphon etc. It took me several weeks of tuning and even changing things in the piping and choose a different pump of which i initialy thought would work but still didn't.. The slightest change like a dirt particle can have a huge impact if you are running it on the edge. You wont notice till it happens, it's running nice for a few days and than something stuppid like a plant leave in front of the syphon and all goes nuts.. Laws of nature and the chances involved are hard to predict and or to calculate up front. It is go with the fllow and find out and fine tune it along the way..  Drilling a tank makes it a bit less complex, but a syphon is a slight different story.


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## foxfish

One alterative I have used with amazing success was a needle wheel pump, they have mutable fins instead of an impeller & are used on large marine protein skimmers.
They are purposely designed to chop up air bubbles but work in the same way with C02.
I now use a reactor because I down sized my tank & I run fairly low lighting but on a tank your size a needle wheel pump would work.
I feed my trickle tower from a small pump situated  in the sump (Like you have pictured you UV) but I only use two compartments in the sump.
One to hold the sponge & the rest of the sump is just one chamber with the two pumps & the heaters.
The trickle tower is just a plastic box filled with bio balls.
You could have some more holes drilled in your tank to feed an external pump for extra movement.


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## Zak Rafik

zozo said:


> The slightest change like a dirt particle can have a huge impact if you are running it on the edge. You wont notice till it happens, it's running nice for a few days and than something stuppid like a plant leave in front of the syphon and all goes nuts.. Laws of nature and the chances involved are hard to predict and or to calculate up front. It is go with the fllow and find out and fine tune it along the way..  Drilling a tank makes it a bit less complex, but a syphon is a slight different story.



Hi Marcel,
So I guess I will be running the tank "on the edge" if I use the MEDIUM size overflow, as it is rated at the maximum of 100 gal tank volume.
With LARGE size, I still have bit room to increase the flow when it is required.

Thanks.


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## Zak Rafik

foxfish said:


> One alterative I have used with amazing success was a needle wheel pump, they have mutable fins instead of an impeller & are used on large marine protein skimmers.
> They are purposely designed to chop up air bubbles but work in the same way with C02.
> I now use a reactor because I down sized my tank & I run fairly low lighting but on a tank your size a needle wheel pump would work.
> I feed my trickle tower from a small pump situated  in the sump (Like you have pictured you UV) but I only use two compartments in the sump.
> One to hold the sponge & the rest of the sump is just one chamber with the two pumps & the heaters.
> The trickle tower is just a plastic box filled with bio balls.
> You could have some more holes drilled in your tank to feed an external pump for extra movement.




Yes, I have thought about using needle wheel pump but for now Co2 diffusion on my 3rd or 4th on my list as I have collected all manners of co2 diffusion tools and are on standby.

As for now, I'm more concerned on 
1.)The size of sump I should get, 
2).The type of return pump ( meaning how many gallons per hour pumping capacity) I should get. 
3).The size of the overflow box I should get ( but I think from what Marcel has mentioned, I'm now 80 to 90% decided on the LARGE size overflow box).

One thing I still don't get is the trickle filter. Do I need it? I will have to gather more info on that.

Thanks.


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## foxfish

Well this is my opinion, if you run 10 x times the tank volume, you will need two overflow boxes & two return pumps. The noise will be considerable & the flow like a jungle waterfall into the sump.
Personally I would not flow such a large quantity of water through my sumps.
There are no 'planted tank police' so no you don't need a trickle filter at all!
Trickle filters out perform any other type of filter, a hand full of bio balls exposed to air and water will hold the same amount of helpful  bacteria as several submersed chambers of media but both will work just fine.
I have found that a large, empty, slow flowing sump chamber is very efficient  at collecting mulm & dead matter even after the mechanical filter stage!
Having lots of compartments just complicate the whole system when a small removable box of bio balls will do the same job.
However I understand that people like to have different media & compartments (even if I don't understand why) & I understand how much fun it is designing all the sump components as I have done so many times.
My tank lives in my lounge, I like it to be quiet, 2000l (5000l in your case) of water continually going down a hole is not quiet! So I run a much slower flow & use a internal pump for extra circulation.  I use a reactor for dissolving the C02 but I used a  fhttps://www.amazon.co.uk/EHEIM-Compact-Skimmer-Needle-Gallons/dp/B002KRIXVY for many years.
I use an AquaTurn adjustable flow pump for the main sump return, it has three power settings = 1200l 2500l & 4500l.
I don't use a conventional overflow box, I have a 25mm x 180mm cut out in the centre of the back glass panel & the overflow box is situated behind the tank.
I have a mains water feed to a ball valve in the sump, this is a fantastic facility. Not only to top up the water level (that goes down pretty fast with high flow sump) but to aid water changes. All I need to do is syphon from the main tank, via an air line into a sink drain. I can leave the syphon going for as long as I like, normally a morning once a week, & the water change is done without getting a hand wet.


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## zozo

The first mistake i made was miscalculation and connecting a hose from overflow to sump.. Than if the hose is not bellow the water line of the sump you get the noise of water falling into the sump. Like snowwhites 7 dwarfs are peeing in it at the same time. If the hose is submersed in the sumps waterlevel it eliminates the peeing sound, 

BUT, than the hose completely fills with water.. Not a problem, till airpockets start to accumulate, water falls through the hose but air wants to come up, it kinda creates a restriction, at some point the air bubble shoots through and you hear a blob in the sump. Next problem, that air bubble is restricting the flow and the moment it shoots through flow encreases, it makes a very erratic fluctuating flow patern. The sudden encrease creates a suction at the overflow and can result in even more air getting sucked into the hose. Resulting a slurps burbs and blobs and constantly changing water levels in the tank and sump. Till in worst case scenario the syphon breakes and the system stops. Next to that the hose gets dirty which again changes the flow speed.

Anyway a constantly water filled hose from overflow to sump was a constant uther very unreliable failure.


 

Solved it like this.. Keep the overflow as short as possible and create an oversized open gutter pipe. the short hose on the overflow ends up into that pipe and it has an open connection. To eliminate running water noise in the pipe plug the open connection with a piece of coarse filtersponge. That way it is pluged but air still can get in. In my case 32 mm PVC pipe was more than sufficient. It never blocks it is an open gutter and can't restrict the flow no matter how dirty it gets, but it actualy doesn't get that dirty. And its cascading and aerating the water. In the sump the pipe is submersed and doesn't make a sound.


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## DavidW

I have a 350 litre planted discus tank with a 90 litre sump with trickle tower, bio balls in the trickle section with seachem matrix, biohome and eheim substrat pro in the submerged part. I also have a purigen and denitrate reactors in my return pump section. I went for a herbie overflow and my system runs nearly silent, just a slight trickle sound. The water from my primary standpipe runs into the my sump and is always underwater so no drainage sound. Here's a side view (crude drawing).



 


 

Here my custom sump when it first arrived, my first sump came with the tank and was a bit of a disaster, it flooded the room every time there was a power cut, so I calculated how much water would drain from my tank in a power cut situation and had a sump built that wouldn't overflow.   - 



 

All setup



 

I did have a big problem with maintaining CO2 level until I fitted a lid with a seal (used rubber door draft seal), now my CO2 is perfect and I'm using a lot less than when I didn't have a sealed lid. I reed my CO2 into a diffuser next to the return pump, the diffused CO2 bubbles get completely dissolved (big thanks to @foxfish for this idea) into the water by my pump, I did want a needle wheel but couldn't find one at a reasonable price

I'm running a 6500lph pump at 80%, my turnover is over x10 I'm only using 1 main standpipe and 1 emergency standpipe but they are both 40mm so can drain a huge amount. I've got a journal with lots of picture on how I set things up -https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/juwel-trigon-350-build.41843/


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## Zak Rafik

QUOTE="foxfish, post: 498999, member: 3574"]Well this is my opinion, if you run 10 x times the tank volume, you will need two overflow boxes & two return pumps. The noise will be considerable & the flow like a jungle waterfall into the sump.
Personally I would not flow such a large quantity of water through my sumps.[/QUOTE]

Hi
I'm not aiming for 10X right now. For now I would be very comfortable with 7x to 8x.
Also if I do need 10X turnover, I don't need 2 overflow boxes + 2 pumps.
I'm planning to get the large size overflow box. Since it is in fact rated up to 150 gal tank capacity and my tank is 100+ gal, there is some over capacity in the ability of the overflow. 
I'll also intend to get a slightly large return pump just in case I need more flow.


 
BTW what's your opinion on *Jebao brand water DC pumps*. I like the fact it has a 10 minutes feed function and it will stop the running pump when feeding fish. I think this is cool as I have experienced food flakes or brine shrimp floating all over in my old tank  which had I flow and some fish foodget stuck in the dense plant growth....and you know what that leads to .
Also this brand pumps has a digital 6 speed flow control built into the pump.
My dream pump is an Eheim but the costs are high $300+  and I don't think it has the digital speed control nor the feed function like the Jebao.



 
 Image from Google.



foxfish said:


> There are no 'planted tank police' so no you don't need a trickle filter at all!


Thanks for the assurance. I just want a simple and easy to maintain sump.



foxfish said:


> the overflow box is situated behind the tank.



Mine will be similar to your overflow ( I think) except that mine will be placed on the side of the tank. Example like the ones below. The 1st photo is of the overflow from outside the tank. The 2nd photo is the view from inside the tank.


 


 
Above images from Google.



foxfish said:


> I can leave the syphon going for as long as I like, normally a morning once a week, & the water change is done without getting a hand wet.


I'm turning green with envy now.


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## Zak Rafik

zozo said:


> The first mistake i made was miscalculation and connecting a hose from overflow to sump.. Than if the hose is not bellow the water line of the sump you get the noise of water falling into the sump.


Yes. I have read about this noise problem online many times. That is why I plan to have the pipe about 1 to 2 inch below water.



zozo said:


> Like snowwhites 7 dwarfs are peeing in it at the same time.


I think nobody could have described it any clearer than you my dear sir.  



zozo said:


> in worst case scenario the syphon breakes and the system stops. Next to that the hose gets dirty which again changes the flow speed.


I can with 90 % confidence say that I won't be losing syphon at all with the overflow box I'm getting as I'll be using the *Herbie overflow method*. If the pump stops, water just stop going down the overflow and when the pump restarts, water will start going down and gravity will start to pull the water into the filter sock area.
AND even if I were to have problem with the main pipe not starting in time, I still have the emergency pipe ( Red colour pipe in the above posted photo) which will have no flow valve connected and is always ready.



zozo said:


> Solved it like this.. Keep the overflow as short as possible and create an oversized open gutter pipe. the short hose on the overflow ends up into that pipe and it has an open connection. To eliminate running water noise in the pipe plug the open connection with a piece of coarse filtersponge. That way it is pluged but air still can get in. In my case 32 mm PVC pipe was more than sufficient. It never blocks it is an open gutter and can't restrict the flow no matter how dirty it gets, but it actualy doesn't get that dirty. And its cascading and aerating the water. In the sump the pipe is submersed and doesn't make a sound.


This is what I like about UKAPS guys. I'm always learning something new here.


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## Zak Rafik

DavidW said:


> I have a 350 litre planted discus tank with a 90 litre sump with trickle tower, bio balls in the trickle section with seachem matrix, biohome and eheim substrat pro in the submerged part. I also have a purigen and denitrate reactors in my return pump section. I went for a herbie overflow and my system runs nearly silent, just a slight trickle sound. The water from my primary standpipe runs into the my sump and is always underwater so no drainage sound. Here's a side view (crude drawing).


First of all, beautiful fish and scape. Wow!
The main reason I'm going with Herbie overflow system is due to the reduction in noise and it ability to restart on the return pump is restarted.
I guess a trickle system will be most useful for Discus fish keeping which needs O2 rich water. You're the 3rd person in this post to use trickle system......hmmm interesting.



DavidW said:


> Here my custom sump when it first arrived,..... had a sump built that wouldn't overflow.


When I saw your custom sump my jaws dropped to the floor. Wow. Superb!



 



DavidW said:


> I did have a big problem with maintaining CO2 level until I fitted a lid with a seal (used rubber door draft seal), now my CO2 is perfect and I'm using a lot less than when I didn't have a sealed lid. I reed my CO2 into a diffuser next to the return pump, the diffused CO2 bubbles get completely dissolved (big thanks to @foxfish for this idea) into the water by my pump, I did want a needle wheel but couldn't find one at a reasonable price



High Five to that! Exactly the same on what I'm going to do also.
I find needle wheel pumps to cost a fortune here. Half the capacity but double the price of a normal return pump.



DavidW said:


> I'm running a 6500lph pump at 80%, my turnover is over x10 I'm only using 1 main standpipe and 1 emergency standpipe but they are both 40mm so can drain a huge amount.


My overflow will have stand pipe 2pcs and emergency pipe 2pc will be 1 inch each ( 2.54cm each). Please give your feedback on the expected flow.



DavidW said:


> I've got a journal with lots of picture on how I set things up -https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/juwel-trigon-350-build.41843/


Sure will. Thanks.


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## ian_m

Zak Rafik said:


> I find needle wheel pumps to cost a fortune here. Half the capacity but double the price of a normal return pump.


Search the internet about how to make your own needle wheel pumps from conventional pump impellers and frying pan scrubbers.

One thing to bare in mid is what happens after (or during) a 50% water change ? Being a planted tank, more especially if using CO2, will the sump fail safe and sump automatically restart after the system has 50% water removed and the 50% water added back ? You don't want to be faffing around clearing air locks & starting syphons every time you change the water...


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## DavidW

Zak Rafik said:


> BTW what's your opinion on *Jebao brand water DC pumps*


I use a Jebao DCP6500, really good pump and quiet too. I have had 2 other Jebao pumps a dc1200 and DCS300 all great pumps. The DCP range are the quietest of the Jebao pumps.



Zak Rafik said:


> When I saw your custom sump my jaws dropped to the floor. Wow. Superb!


Thanks! After a lot of research on sump design and hours drawing up what I wanted I managed to find a company that agreed to make the sump from acrylic to my spec at a decent price.



Zak Rafik said:


> My overflow will have stand pipe 2pcs and emergency pipe 2pc will be 1 inch each ( 2.54cm each). Please give your feedback on the expected flow.


I can tell you my 40cm stand pipe flows a massive amount or water much more than my 6500lph pump can handle. The valve I have on it is only a quarter open and this flows enough for the pump to handle at 80%.
You will need a ball valve on each main stand pipe and emergency, so you can adjust the flow to what you return pump can handle. If you go for a jebao pump which comes with controller it makes it really easy to balance the flow. If you only used 1 stand pipe to floe to the sump I would say you'd only need it open about 35-40% for the 3000lph pump to coupe with, if you use both stand pipes then half that 17.5-20%, only way to really tell is to open them both a small amount switch your pump on and adjust.


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## Zak Rafik

ian_m said:


> Search the internet about how to make your own needle wheel pumps from conventional pump impellers and frying pan scrubbers.


I already have the DIY details for making a needle wheel pump from conventional pump impeller ( thanks to Tom Barr) somewhere in my laptop's folder. I'll kiv this project once I have fine tuned my sump configuration and other basic stuff.
Thanks for bring up this topic.



ian_m said:


> One thing to bare in mid is what happens after (or during) a 50% water change ? Being a planted tank, more especially if using CO2, will the sump fail safe and sump automatically restart after the system has 50% water removed and the 50% water added back ? You don't want to be faffing around clearing air locks & starting syphons every time you change the water...


Yes a valid point indeed.
Ok, this what I have planned. I intend to NOT remove any water from the sump tank BUT to remove 50% water from the main display tank.
During water change process,  I will switch off the return pump and close the flow valve on the pipe from the overflow to the sump.
Once the necessary maintenance has been carried out (plant trimming, cleaning glass etc..etc..), to refill with  fresh water I intend to to any of the 2 ways below:

1. I refill the display tank directly using my trusty python. Once the water level has reached the preset level in the display tank, I'll open the flow valve from the overflow to the sump and then start the return pump.

OR

2. Have the flow valve from overflow box to sump CLOSED. I start the return pump and I fill the compartment with the return with fresh water. Toward the end, I open the flow valve.

But personally, I feel more comfortable with option 1 as I have more control and less faffing with water level.

Because my overflow is going to be set up using the Herbie Overflow method, I foresee very less chance of losing siphon. Also due to the fact that there is an emergency pipe always on standby for any problem with water level, I'll have more control.

What do think? I'm sure you have seen many types of filtration systems. Please share your thoughts.

I had thought out these problems and that is why I'm dead against using the overflows like the ones shown below. 

Cheers.


----------



## Zak Rafik

DavidW said:


> I use a Jebao DCP6500, really good pump and quiet too. I have had 2 other Jebao pumps a dc1200 and DCS300 all great pumps. The DCP range are the quietest of the Jebao pumps.



Thanks for the feedback. Are they quite when in the sump? I have seen some complains on YouTube about the vibration noise when the pump touches the sump glass floor. Is it true?




DavidW said:


> Thanks! After a lot of research on sump design and hours drawing up what I wanted I managed to find a company that agreed to make the sump from acrylic to my spec at a decent price.


I read all the juicy details on your thread. Very interesting and learnt a few important pointers from there. Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.



DavidW said:


> I can tell you my 40cm stand pipe flows a massive amount or water much more than my 6500lph pump can handle. The valve I have on it is only a quarter open and this flows enough for the pump to handle at 80%. You will need a ball valve on each main stand pipe and emergency, so you can adjust the flow to what you return pump can handle. If you go for a jebao pump which comes with controller it makes it really easy to balance the flow. If you only used 1 stand pipe to floe to the sump I would say you'd only need it open about 35-40% for the 3000lph pump to coupe with, if you use both stand pipes then half that 17.5-20%, only way to really tell is to open them both a small amount switch your pump on and adjust.



Ian_M brought up some interesting points on how I would handle the flow and return pump during water changes. Since you're also using the Herbie Overflow method and using the exact pump I'm will be getting, I think you are more qualified than me to shed some light on the procedure when doing water changes.

Kindly see my reply to Ian_M on what I intend to do. Is it correct?

BTW congratulation on your win against the nasty algae outbreak on your tank. Please do keep that thread updated. I'm following it to learn from your journey.


----------



## foxfish

If you use an auto top up valve in the sump then water changes offer very little problems, as long as you don't remove water faster than the ball valve can top it up, then it will be very painless. Obviously there are times when you need to actually reduce the display tank water level but if no heavy maintenance is required, I just run about 20' of air line into my bathroom sink drain & let it run for a few hours.
You can see and hear my pump running in this video, the camera microphone is right along side the pump. The pump must be well over 20 years old now & never had a service in its life. It even ran continuously for 4 years on a marine system.


----------



## DavidW

Zak Rafik said:


> vibration noise when the pump touches the sump glass floor. Is it true?


Not sure about glass my sump is acrylic, but the pumps all have rubber feet.



Zak Rafik said:


> how I would handle the flow and return pump during water changes


To be honest I've never had any issues with water changes. I turn the pump off siphon 30-40% of the water from the main tank, clean the glass, trim the plants etc then pump fresh water back into the tank. When the water starts to flow down the stand pipe I turn the pump back on and adjust the speed to the water flow and gradually increase the pump speed up to optimum level for my tank (80%). I don't turn the ball valves off on the stand pipe, when I designed the sump I calculated how much water would drain from the main tank if the pump would stop and designed the sump to hold the extra water. I have drilled the bottom of my tank for the pipes and fitted a weir in the corner rather than using an overflow box. I can see using an overflow box you may experience the issues Ian_M brought up.



Zak Rafik said:


> BTW congratulation on your win against the nasty algae outbreak on your tank


Thanks, it took a while to sort out. I ended up using a weekly fert (easy-life profit, ferro, nitro and fosfo) with a 30% water change and turning my CO2 to be constantly on to beat most of the algae apart from BBA, my sword fish take care of most of that now, and since also adding floating plants it all but gone now


----------



## Zak Rafik

foxfish said:


> If you use an auto top up valve in the sump then water changes offer very little problems, as long as you don't remove water faster than the ball valve can top it up, then it will be very painless. Obviously there are times when you need to actually reduce the display tank water level but if no heavy maintenance is required, I just run about 20' of air line into my bathroom sink drain & let it run for a few hours.
> You can see and hear my pump running in this video, the camera microphone is right along side the pump. The pump must be well over 20 years old now & never had a service in its life. It even ran continuously for 4 years on a marine system.




Thanks for your input. I saw your video and have subbed  to your channel.


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## Costa

DavidW said:


> I did have a big problem with maintaining CO2 level until I fitted a lid with a seal (used rubber door draft seal), now my CO2 is perfect and I'm using a lot less than when I didn't have a sealed lid.



David, could you elaborate on how you sealed the lid please? I have a 150L sump to support a 600L main tank, and the sump at the moment I cover with some polystyrene.


----------



## DavidW

Costa said:


> David, could you elaborate on how you sealed the lid please


Hi, I bought some P draft seal and suck it to the edge of the lid. Works a treat and enabled me to turn my CO2 BPS down ans still maintain the same CO2 level in the tank.


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## Costa

Beautiful, thank you. Great idea!


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## Zak Rafik

Just an update.
I thought building my own sump with the necessary plumbing work will be a walk in the park. Boy! was I mistaken.
Getting the parts ( unions, valves and PVC connectors) is quite overwhelming......and add to this, the placement of the baffles (positions) in the sump is still confusing me as I type this.


----------



## DavidW

It's best to draw it out on paper first so you can calculate the size of each chamber and what you want to place in that chamber, and plan out the pipework. I've got a box of valves, elbows reducers etc left over from my build due to not planning the pipework out correctly and then changing my mind during the pipework build. I found a couple of companies that sell the parts quite cheaply but postage is quite high so I ended up buying more than I needed just in case.


----------



## Zak Rafik

DavidW said:


> It's best to draw it out on paper first so you can calculate the size of each chamber and what you want to place in that chamber, and plan out the pipework. I've got a box of valves, elbows reducers etc left over from my build due to not planning the pipework out correctly and then changing my mind during the pipework build. I found a couple of companies that sell the parts quite cheaply but postage is quite high so I ended up buying more than I needed just in case.



Hi DavidW
I do have my sump layout drawn on paper but since running a sump is virgin territory for me. I'm trying to gather as such info and tips before drilling the display tank for the overflow and buying the sump tank and parts. I don't want to silicon glue the baffles and then end up with less flow or worse, overflow the sump when the return pump is switch off.

On the net, 75% of sump designs are for reef tanks and and whatever is left is for monster fish tanks. The requirements for sump capacity, flow direction and number of baffles needed in a sump is quite unique for each type of fish keeping.
I did find a handful of sump design inspirations on plantedtank forum but thanks to @!*&^$%#$# Photobucket, all the sump diagrams/ drawings and photos are gone. Now, I'm surfing YouTube videos for ideas.

Will be posting what I found here very soon, as it may be of use for fellow hobbyist who are in my shoe.

Tae care.


----------



## DavidW

When you can post up your design, there's a few here with sumps who can give you advice on your design.


----------



## zozo

Zak Rafik said:


> overflow the sump when the return pump is switch off.



This is actualy quite simple to prevent.  Either way, if pump stops to not overflow the sump or when syphon breaks or blocks not overflow the tank.

Calculate the tanks rest volume from desired water level to top. Example you want the overflow to drain the tank 3 cm bellow the top. That's tanks surface in cm² x 3 cm, lets say this is 30 litre, this means you can't pump more than 30 litre water from the sump to tank in case of a syphon block. Than calculate the sumps dimensions so that it works with holding no more than 30 litres.. Any other design and say the sump holds 60 litre of water, than do not place the pump on the bottom of the sump. Rise the pump on a platform so it can never pump out > 30 litre.

In any case it is best to also install a floater switch and a relai to stop the pump so it will never run dry and burn out.. Rising the pump on a platform is a fail safe, you could only use a floater switch, but if the switch fails (dirt) results in flooding the tank.. A burned out pump is always beter than a flooded living room.

In case of a power out, calculate how much the tank drains to the sump. This also depends on pump capacity and drain capacity, so this will be difficult to pre calculate precisely. And if you make a trickle tower than always make the reservior holding the pump bigger in volume. It shouldn't never filled to the top when installation is running.

Simply if the water level is 1 cm on top of the overflow when all is running. And pump stops it drains this 1cm water level back to the sump. This is Surface cm² x 1 cm = X cm³ volume, so the reservior holding the pump should be oversized with empty space at least 1 x  this volume.


----------



## Zak Rafik

DavidW said:


> When you can post up your design, there's a few here with sumps who can give you advice on your design.


Sure will. Thanks for your thought.


----------



## Zak Rafik

Hi zozo,
Thanks for your suggestions.



zozo said:


> in case of a syphon block.


I can be 99.99% confident that there won't be any syphon break in my case. You see, the overflow box (as shown on my 1st post) has 2 pieces of 1 inch pipes which will be doing full syphon and even in the far fetched chance that the 2 pipes get blocked, I still have one more 1 inch emergency pipe.  This is the main reason I choose the Herbie overflow method and also not use a HOB (hand on the back) overflow box.

Yes, as you mentioned there is a change of a blockage (although very slight) if I were to totally neglect the tank or not clear the floating plant trimmings after maintenance work.



zozo said:


> Than calculate the sumps dimensions so that it works with holding no more than 30 litres.. Any other design and say the sump holds 60 litre of water, than *do not place the pump on the bottom of the sump. Rise the pump on a platform so it can never pump out* > 30 litre.



Now! That is one super duper idea you have given there. Thanks bro.
It never occurred to me. As I said, running a sump is virgin territory for me



zozo said:


> In any case it is best to also install a floater switch and a relai to stop the pump so it will never run dry and burn out.. Rising the pump on a platform is a fail safe, you could only use a floater switch, but if the switch fails (dirt) results in flooding the tank.. A burned out pump is always beter than a flooded living room.



Another brilliant suggestion from you. I will be using a Jebao DC return pump and the neat thing is that this pump comes with an auto shutdown feature in case the pump detects no water.
But your suggestion on the floater switch is good also as it provide a double protection. My wife will also be assured that I won't damage the living hall with a flooded tank.



zozo said:


> Simply if the water level is 1 cm on top of the overflow when all is running. And pump stops it drains this 1cm water level back to the sump. This is Surface cm² x 1 cm = X cm³ volume, so the reservior holding the pump should be oversized with empty space at least 1 x  this volume.


Got it. Thanks.


----------



## Zak Rafik

While reading @DavidW 's post https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/juwel-trigon-350-build.41843/ I read @zozo 's comment on the accumalation of "goo" after fiter media in the sump.
Quote: _Note you have your biomedia in the last compartiment, for me it's the first.. There will *develop a lot of goo in and especialy bellow the biomedia on the sumps bottom.*. T
his is normal and only telling you your sump is doing what it should do.. In this goo will house the anaerobic bacteria. 
It looks in your diagram like it is *now this goo will be sucket out by the pump back into the tank. You have to prevent that with another barrier of foam..*"_

Glad I read this important points before getting the sumps. ZoZo has an important point here.
I did notice the same "goo" like thing in my Eheim canister filter just after the BioHome media.
All this while I thought it dirt from the display tank that somehow got through the filter sponge and fine wool filter.

I'm gathering bit and pieces of tips and suggestion from all over and will then commit them to my sump. I may not have the perfect sump but hope for an efficient and easy to maintain sump system, fingers crossed.

Below image from DavidW post.


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## zozo

Zak Rafik said:


> running a sump is virgin territory for me



I guess it was for every hobbyist one time.. When all is setup and running you likely will experience more issues you didn't think off. Sumps partialy work with laws of nature, than you try to find to balance these laws with mechanical forces, like pumps, switches and valves and the help of tubes and hoses. The natural laws involved can be very unpredictable. It took me about 6 months to fine tune my first sump and redesigning some parts itheoreticaly miscalculated. Simple things that after weeks functioning ok all of a sudden changed. Like a little piece of dirt (algae growth) changing the flow balance resulting in noise or resulting in a fluctuating drain speed in relation to the pump capacity. This pumps capacity also isn't constant, tubes get dirty decreasing pumps capacity.

Allong the way, you can incounter little ad hoc issues you have to resolve on the fly.

In my case i use diy overflow syphons and it took me some redesigning parts of the concept to get it running smoothly in a safe constant.

Sumps have one con, that is, it's a complete diy concept and you need to get familiar with your build along the way. Once you know how it all works, you likely will be the only one knowing that, you hear it, you instantly know where to look and what to do, you and your sump are slowly getting one working together.. So going on vacation and asking family or friends to look after the tank a few weeks is a huge risk.. Somebody unfamiliar and unexperienced with the concept will likely run into a wall with resolving sudden issues. Carma is a biatch, nothing extraordanairy ever happens till you leave the house.


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## Edvet

zozo said:


> When all is setup and running you likely will experience more issues you didn't think off


I flooded the living room more often then i care to remember, luckily we have tiles


----------



## zozo

Edvet said:


> I flooded the living room more often then i care to remember, luckily we have tiles



That's something i lukely got covered from the start, with calculating the volumes propperly.. But that resulted in a few burned out pumps before i got it running as should..  Some advice, start out with cheap china pumps till it runs as should.

Even with floater switches dry running protection and or return valves etc. You always have water running back to the sump, its from the drain or from the inlet syphoning back. Doesn't need to be much, but it makes the water level in the sump go up, pump starts again pumps out 1 litre and stops, 1 litre syphons back and pump starts again.. And stops and starts and stops and so on. If that happens over night while you are a sleep or away out of the house. Imagine a pump doing that every 30 seconds that is 120 times an hour a day work or night sleep is averagely 8 hours.. No pump is designed for that punishment... You would need to install a relai that stops permanently in case of a malfunction..


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## DavidW

Edvet said:


> I flooded the living room more often then i care to remember


Me too with my first sump. With the second sump I had build I made sure there was enough space to take the overflow water from the tank if there was a power cut.



Zak Rafik said:


> Below image from DavidW post.


I've got another small compartment same size as the foam compartment where all the brown poop gathers. Makes it really easy to clean.


----------



## zozo

Zak Rafik said:


> While reading @DavidW 's post https://ukaps.org/forum/threads/juwel-trigon-350-build.41843/ I read @zozo
> View attachment 110617



This was one of the first designs, maybe after changing a few things.. Since it is a trickle water actualy should trickle, so it devides evenly all over the media.
I added that diagonal ramp, to get the water overflowing to the midlle.. But still that didn't satisfy me.. Changed it agai.








 I tossed the ramp and added 3 spray bars dripping on the media.. Also after a year running perfectly i tossed the floater switch, now it runs a year without.
The last bafle where the foam is is perforated, i blocked this with a piece of acrylic (red line in pic). Now the water flows verticaly through the last foam piece instead of horizontaly. It was a efficiency desicion, with an horizontal flow all the dirt stayed at the bottom range through the sponge. Now the water getting pushed up verticaly and it takes all off the sponge and not only half of it as in the pic above.





After adding the spray bars i also added low trailing plants, Bacopa and Hydrocotyl as helophytes.. I do not use a filter bag.. Filter bags get clogged with fine debri over time. Heavier solids sinck to the bottom anyway and stay there.. The little solids getting through the spraybar ending up in the plants are no problem, the plants take care of it.

Here it is in real life..  Got 3 drip bars (originaly they are spray bars) Very rarely get blocked, if it is blocked 9 out of 10 it's a little snail.. In my experience my setup doesn't need a filter bag. I do not experience any pro's in using them..




There are not many heavy solids ending up in the sump anyway. After all an overflow in the tank only skims doesn't catch non floating debri.. Heavy solids non floating debri sincks to the substrate and stay in the aquarium, need to remove that with syphoning the tank when nessecary.  Every 2 sometimes 3 months or so i need to trim the sumps plants growing out (I did last weekend), than i also flush the sponges under the tap.. The plants will overgrow the drip bars in a week or 2 and shade them from light, even after months no algae growth in the drip bars.

Once a month i clean the last stage fine PPI polishing sponge Plants are very healthy and happy in my sump.. That's a very good indicator.


----------



## Zak Rafik

Hi everyone,
The sump design is coming along nicely and I must say it kind of fun!
Anyway, I made some modification to my original design as shown below. I have had some beautiful ideas from the members in this forum and YouTube videos.

Apart from the positions of the baffles in the sump, the main addition and modification made are :

*1). The addition of running a refugium* (which will contain nutrient soaking plants like Ceratophyllum demersum 'Foxtail' or Salvinia adnata but definitely not duckweed though).

Basically, I'm looking for any floating plant which have medium to large leaves and does not need constant maintenance.

*Question:*
Now I need some pointers from you guys. Can you please infom :
What kind of floating plants I can have in the refugium that needs low to medium light?

Read that floating plants provide aeration to a planted tank. What's your opinion on this?
I know that floating plants soak up excess nutrients.

Or is the whole idea of running a refugium in the sump unnecessary.


*2). I have the return pump function for dual purpose.*
In my previous design the return pump was to pump back the water to the display tank only. The UV light would have a separate small pump for its purpose.
But now I have taken out the small pump for the UV light and have decided to run the UV light with a connection from the main pump.

This would help me in having one less pump that consumes power and generates heat in the sump. I will install a ball valve to the connection to the UV so that I can control the right flow for the UV to be effective.

*Question:*
Because the main pump will also be suking up Co2 from the attached inline to the main display tank, the water to the UV light will also be Co2 enriched.
Now my question is, will this lead me to increase the co2 rate to the inline diffuser as co2 will be lost in the refugium?
Or the other option is to have the return line from the UV light flow into the chamber where the main pump is.

What do you propose? Please let me know. Thanks.


----------



## zozo

I think a floater that doesn't need maintenance doesn't excist, they all have access to atmospheric co2 and if enough ferts grow rather fast. Light intensity doesn't realy make them grow faster or slower, it generaly reflects the size they grow in. For example salvinia stays rather small in lower light condition but still propagates as a racecar. in my experience.  If you have enough height above the sump in the cabinet i definitively would go with a tray and some smaller trailing plant sp. growing emersed with only the roots hanging in the water. Hydroponic style. 

That splitting the pump outlet as in the diagram, likely wont work as well as you expect.. Water takes the route of least resistance, since tubes get dirty there is no way of knowing what this will bring. It will result in all the water running over the UV light and about nothing to the tank or just dripping at the UV light and all to the tank. To get this working in a controled fashion you realy would need 2 pumps. Or toss the UV idea complletely, but thats a mater of personal opinion, mine is, it is UV is a waste of money.


----------



## Zak Rafik

zozo said:


> That splitting the pump outlet as in the diagram, likely wont work as well as you expect.. Water takes the route of least resistance, since tubes get dirty there is no way of knowing what this will bring. It will result in all the water running over the UV light and about nothing to the tank or just dripping at the UV light and all to the tank. To get this working in a controled fashion you realy would need 2 pumps. Or toss the UV idea complletely, but thats a mater of personal opinion, mine is, it is UV is a waste of money.



Hi Zozo,
I got the idea for splitting the connection from the main return pump after seeing many reef tanks examples.
Some salt water tanks have 3 to 4 split connections (used to run for may functions needed for reef tanks) from the main return pump. Example like below (highlighted in red box).

When we talk about the pipes getting blocked, I think reef tanks are many many times more prone to having pipes blocked or flow slowed due to salt buildup and other growths.
But I do have to agree with you on running a dedicated pump just for the UV. It does give some assurance that the main return pump is providing the right flow to the display tank.

Let's see what other members here have got to say about this.

Cheers.


----------



## Zak Rafik

zozo said:


> I think a floater that doesn't need maintenance doesn't excist, they all have access to atmospheric co2 and if enough ferts grow rather fast. Light intensity doesn't realy make them grow faster or slower, it generaly reflects the size they grow in. For example salvinia stays rather small in lower light condition but still propagates as a racecar. in my experience.  If you have enough height above the sump in the cabinet i definitively would go with a tray and some smaller trailing plant sp. growing emersed with only the roots hanging in the water. Hydroponic style.



I asked for refugium plants that does "not need *constant *maintenance" and "not *NO* maintenance"

The main reason I want to run a sump is for my maintenance of the filtration system to be as hassle free as possible. 
But now that I read your comments, I may end up having to tend to the plants in the sump as well.
Not only do I have to look after the plants in the display tank now I may have to run separate lights and issues with regards to the plants in the sump. 
I'm having 2nd thought now about the refugium. I'll KIV this for now.


----------



## zozo

Zak Rafik said:


> Hi Zozo,
> I got the idea for splitting the connection from the main return pump after seeing many reef tanks examples.
> Some salt water tanks have 3 to 4 split connections (used to run for may functions needed for reef tanks) from the main return pump. Example like below (highlighted in red box).
> 
> When we talk about the pipes getting blocked, I think reef tanks are many many times more prone to having pipes blocked or flow slowed due to salt buildup and other growths.
> But I do have to agree with you on running a dedicated pump just for the UV. It does give some assurance that the main return pump is providing the right flow to the display tank.
> 
> Let's see what other members here have got to say about this.
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> View attachment 110713



If you have a powerfull enough pump and the outlets close enough together with valves to regulate as in the pic, than it can work.. Seeing the 25mm tube, that installation must have quite a strong pump with a lot of head pressure to push that volume.. The further the 2 outlets are apart from eachother the more difficult it gets to create a constant same flow over both points. Simply because water tends to take the route of least resistance. And if over time this resistance changes due to dirt build up the flow patern changes..  It's not just my theory, i've tried it often enough to find out.. Be carefull with pictures on internet, lot of people tend not to feedback on DIY constructions that didn't work on the long run.  Usualy these topics about unexplored areas die sillently and turn into another topic with new ideas.



Zak Rafik said:


> I asked for refugium plants that does "not need *constant *maintenance" and "not *NO* maintenance"



Sorry for the twisting of words, but whats constant? Once a week, once a month?. I'm not so sure if pantgrowth can be controlled like that. A planted tank needs ferts,, floaters gets the most co2 available and always grow the fastest in relation to the rest under the surface.  You could try a nymphoides and leave it in the rockwool.  These are in my experience the slowest floaters if not planted in rich soil. But if you plan a high tech tank which means a high fert regime in the water colum i'm not so sure. Another possible option might be Hygroryza aristata, it doesn't propagate in seperate plantlets like duckweed or salvinia, it grows in long strains with rather long rootsystem. Makes it somewhat easier to maintain..


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zak Rafik said:


> Basically, I'm looking for any floating plant which have medium to large leaves and does not need constant maintenance.


I'd use Amazon Frogbit, it takes seconds to hook it out when you have too much, and each individual leaf is quite long lived. 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Daveslaney

I would ditch the refugium you have the plants in your tank for this?
Filter sock Trickle filtration for bio will out perform any submerged filter 10 fold. Then polishing media of your choice filter wool ,carbon purgen all of these would work.
This IMHO would give you the best performing simple to maintain system.


----------



## Kezzab

I've personally found floating plants don't do very well in my sump, i think because of the constant flow of water. I've used Peace Lillies in clay pebbles and found they grow very well.


----------



## Zak Rafik

Hi Dave, 



Daveslaney said:


> I would ditch the refugium you have the plants in your tank for this?
> Filter sock Trickle filtration for bio will out perform any submerged filter 10 fold. Then polishing media of your choice filter wool ,carbon purgen all of these would work.
> This IMHO would give you the best performing simple to maintain system.



I will be using a 200 micron filter sock. The size of each sock filter is 4 inch diameter by 16 inch long. I'll be using two filter socks in my planned sump. 
Once the sump is up and running and observing flow, I'm planning to have a 100 micron filter sock for better mechanical filtration.
Plant to have a med light planted tank which will be densely planted ( maybe jungle style) and lots of small tetras (ember tetras, rummy noses, diamond tetras), shrimps and Ots. 

I don't think I would need a trickle (wet/dry filter) for such small fish. Do I?
I'm also very concerned about the water trickling noise from a wet/dry filter,I don't think my wife will be pleased with it.

Yes, I'll be having purigen in the tank.

Cheers


----------



## Zak Rafik

Kezzab said:


> I've personally found floating plants don't do very well in my sump, i think because of the constant flow of water. I've used Peace Lillies in clay pebbles and found they grow very well.
> View attachment 110728



Hi Kezzab, 
Yes I have read floating plants not doing well where there is constant high flow. I find @zozo 's idea of running a "Hydroponic" style. I can get some nice plants to grown on the coarse filter sponge.
Also it will look kind of cool actually and the added dash of colour in a drab looking sump area will be a nice touch.

Also I think lights for such plants need not be of high intensity.
Cheers.


----------



## Zak Rafik

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I'd use Amazon Frogbit, it takes seconds to hook it out when you have too much, and each individual leaf is quite long lived.
> 
> cheers Darrel



Hi dw1305,
I plan to use Amazon frogbits during the initial stage of cycling the tank. I'll be using ADA aquasoil.
Just wanted to know if it can be completely removed from the tank once I don't need it. What do you say?
I know that duckweed is a pain to completely remove from a tank.


----------



## Zak Rafik

zozo said:


> If you have a powerfull enough pump and the outlets close enough together with valves to regulate as in the pic, than it can work.. Seeing the 25mm tube, that installation must have quite a strong pump with a lot of head pressure to push that volume.. The further the 2 outlets are apart from eachother the more difficult it gets to create a constant same flow over both points. Simply because water tends to take the route of least resistance. And if over time this resistance changes due to dirt build up the flow patern changes..  It's not just my theory, i've tried it often enough to find out.. Be carefull with pictures on internet, lot of people tend not to feedback on DIY constructions that didn't work on the long run.  Usualy these topics about unexplored areas die sillently and turn into another topic with new ideas.
> 
> Sorry for the twisting of words, but whats constant? Once a week, once a month?. I'm not so sure if pantgrowth can be controlled like that. A planted tank needs ferts,, floaters gets the most co2 available and always grow the fastest in relation to the rest under the surface.  You could try a nymphoides and leave it in the rockwool.  These are in my experience the slowest floaters if not planted in rich soil. But if you plan a high tech tank which means a high fert regime in the water colum i'm not so sure. Another possible option might be Hygroryza aristata, it doesn't propagate in seperate plantlets like duckweed or salvinia, it grows in long strains with rather long rootsystem. Makes it somewhat easier to maintain..



Hi Zozo,
I can't agree with you any more about what you have said about taking information from the net. 
"_Be careful with pictures on internet, lot of people tend not to feedback on DIY constructions that didn't work on the long run._" what you said is 101% accurate.

I have given up on the idea of running a refugium in my sump. Apart from finding the right kind of plants, I will also have to block the lights from spreading to the other sump compartments and that could lead to algae issue.
By removing the refugium area, I can make the sump shorter or increase the filter media area (BioHome etc..)

If I should want to have some plants in the sump later on, I can always copy your "hydroponic" style setup. 

As for splitting the return pump to run the UV, I'll decide before I purchase the pump. It will be the last equipment I will install as I have yet to set up the plumbing pipes with all the elbow connections and union fittings.
I don't want to end up with a under rated pump.

BTW, the overflow box will be arriving in 10 days time. All excited about it.


----------



## Zak Rafik

There is a LFS that is closing down and they're selling off their tanks at dirt cheap prices. I'll be going tomorrow and hope to get a nice tank for the sump.
Today I have enquired at glass shop and the price for a new custom built sump tank is also reasonable. So wish me luck.


----------



## dw1305

Hi all, 





Zak Rafik said:


> Just wanted to know if it can be completely removed from the tank once I don't need it. What do you say?


No problem at all, it is quite a big chunky plant, and doesn't grew from rosette fragments or seed.

Mine never looks this healthy, but this is what it looks like <"when it is enjoying itself">.



 

cheers Darrel


----------



## Edvet

Zak Rafik said:


> I can't agree with you any more about what you have said about taking information from the net.
> "_Be careful with pictures on internet, lot of people tend not to feedback on DIY constructions that didn't work on the long run._" what you said is 101% accurate.


Thats so good in this forum. Long time users and journals.


----------



## Kezzab

Weirdly in my planted sump I have never had any algae at all on anything, emersed or submersed, despite the light being on 11hrs a day. 

By contrast in the display tank I've had all sorts. Go figure.

And the DIY trickle filter I've made is now running silent, too.

Just experiment with the sump. Once you have the basic media in you'll already have more filter than a normal canister and you'll have all the remaining space to mess about with.


----------



## Zak Rafik

Kezzab said:


> Weirdly in my planted sump I have never had any algae at all on anything, emersed or submersed, despite the light being on 11hrs a day.
> By contrast in the display tank I've had all sorts. Go figure.
> And the DIY trickle filter I've made is now running silent, too.
> Just experiment with the sump. Once you have the basic media in you'll already have more filter than a normal canister and you'll have all the remaining space to mess about with.



Hi Kezzab 
That's good to hear. 
BTW, when growing plants in the sump area, do the lights in the sump and display tank come on at the same time or on an alternate basis?
Cheers.


----------



## Edvet

Would emersed growing plants add oxygen to the water?? Or are they just used for using up ferts??  I can see using emersed plants in a no plants setup would be usefull to use N and P, but in a planted tank the only use i can see is adding oxygen to the water during the night. Dont they have to be submerged and on an alternate schedule?? For adding oxygen to the sump a tricklefilter would be better surely.


----------



## Zak Rafik

Edvet said:


> Would emersed growing plants add oxygen to the water?? Or are they just used for using up ferts??  I can see using emersed plants in a no plants setup would be usefull to use N and P, but in a planted tank the only use i can see is adding oxygen to the water during the night. Dont they have to be submerged and on an alternate schedule?? For adding oxygen to the sump a tricklefilter would be better surely.



@zozo , @Edvet, @dw1305 @Daveslaney @Kezzab , would appreciate your feedback on this. Please see below diagram.

While reading Edvet's comment and on adding O2 to the tank at night, I came up with this "idea".
How about if I install air wands hooked up onto an air pump? I can have it in the sump chamber where I had wanted the refugium?
I have a spare Eheim 400 which can be put on a timer and have it turn on when the Co2 switches off? What do you think? Pros & Cons?

Thanx in advance.
Cheers


----------



## Edvet

Me personally i don't believe in UV except maybe in high fish-dense holding/breeding/grow-out systems. In our tanks i believe in healthy water and good food, these will boost health and promote disease resistance.
The airwands could help but i would prefer 1) a trickle filter if possible and 2) before the biological part, there the oxygen is needed most for the sump. If you wanted to add oxygen to the tank the wands would be most usefull near the returnpump


----------



## zozo

Me, when it comes to UV i'm with Edvet.. And Co2 + sump is zero experience for me.. The day i decided to go for a sump was about simultaniously with Jason from GBG.
I took one of his proposed diagrams as base for my sump.. He went completely different and High tech with his and in the end it turned out to be a very beautifull tank.
https://glassboxgardeners.com/threads/jasons-120x60x45-tank-setup-modified-eareef-1200s.473/


----------



## Daveslaney

I would drop the UV to to be honest, The prob is your uv doesnt discriminate between the good guys and the bad, so you will be zapping alot of the good bacteria too.
For the sump i would go as said earlier socks then trickle/wet dry as well as superior bio filtration it would be near maintenance free and give high o2 levels.
The lower water level will also give more redundancy in the sump to if your pump fails.
Just how noisey it would be i dont know.


----------



## Kezzab

The other benefit of plants in the sump is that they make it look nice, and it surprises people when you open the cupboard. A solid rationale I think.


----------



## Zak Rafik

Hi
Was busy for some days and hence the late update.
Just a quick update on my situation.

The overflow box has arrived and the tank is waiting to be drilled.
I have gotten the necessary pvc plumbing parts and it was quite feat to gather them (photo below). Quite surprised that the parts were not that easy to get from on-line ( they don't ship to Singapore, or the shipping costs 3-5 times or more than the part itself) or from retail / specialist shops. The only part that I'm still looking for is 1 inch gate valves.

As for the sump, I have sourced designs from many freshwater and reef tank youtubes and forums posts.
I'll be starting a journal here very soon and will show the complete build of the display tank and sump as well.

Cheers


----------



## Zak Rafik

A short update. Tha tank tank has been drilled and looks awesome with the overflow attached. 
The main setback is fixing the pipes in place. What I had planned on paper is much different from the actual fixed pipes. Now all the pipes are dry fixed and once I'm satisfied, I'll do the actual gluing.

The best part was the sump. I had planned for a 30inch long but it came out to a 33 inch. It's not bad, I still have much space for my Co2 equipment and others.
Had wanted to fix the baffles by myself  ( I love diy) but in the end,  I decided to let the glass shop to all the fixing. My children were sitting for their exams and I didn't want the house reeking with the smell of curing silicon and disturb their studies.
Cheers.


----------



## Something Fishy

Hi Zak, how is your sump going?  I have designed one here : https://www.ukaps.org/forum/attachments/sump-idea-jpg.112666/ and wonder what your thoughts are on it based on how well yours works?  I was trying to think of a good way to dissolve the co2 so this was my solution - are you seeing much co2 evaporation?


----------



## Zak Rafik

Something Fishy said:


> Hi Zak, how is your sump going?  I have designed one here : https://www.ukaps.org/forum/attachments/sump-idea-jpg.112666/ and wonder what your thoughts are on it based on how well yours works?  I was trying to think of a good way to dissolve the co2 so this was my solution - are you seeing much co2 evaporation?



Hi,
Very impressive drawing! You go to great levels just to design your sump.

1.
I noticed that you plan to have PPI foam in 3 seperate chambers. - this I personally feel is an overkill.
Your flow might be slowed down dramatically and will be slowed down even further as the foam starts to collect bio film inside them.
Since you're planning to use filter sock, go for 200 micron filter sock. With 100 micron your water will be more clear but the downside is, the 100 micron filter sock will get clogged up fast. If you can spare the time and effort to change the filter sock every 2-3 days, 100 micron will be a good match. I'm using 200 micron as I can't spare the time for now to do the changes.

I'm even planning to use 300 micron sock when I'm out of town for more than 1 week. We don't want a clogged up filter sock and have dirty water overflowing in to the other compartments.

If in case any waste / leave matter manages to escape the filter sock (due to overflow from the clogged up  filter sock), you can place some sponge blocks ( marked in yellow) in the chamber right after the filter sock. But even then it can half of what you've planned now.

2.
In the next chamber, use filter floss instead of foam. As filter floss is cheaper, you can simply toss them away when they become dirty and replace with a fresh and clean floss.

3. Have purigen and carbon as labeled in the graph below as they these need periodic replacement. Have the bio media at the bottom as they will hardly be touched. If you place the purigen/carbon, the bio media will have to be taken out everytime and this can be a messy and wet affair. 

4.
Remove the steps in the next chamber as they can potentially slow down flow. Furthermore they can be be a hassle to clean. It will be difficult to  reach the bottom of that chamber if in case you need to clean that area too.

5.
You certainly don't want Co2 diffusion at the bottom of the chamber as indicated in your drawing.
First, when it comes to replacement or cleaning of the ceramic co2 diffuser, it's can be troublesome, messy and very wet. You will have to take out everything that chamber. Running a sump is supposed to make things easier not more complicated and troublesome for us.
Have the diffuser next to the return pump where the water will be the cleanest. It'll be easier to troubleshoot co2 related issued ( co2 hose coming off loose / clogged up ceramic etc...). Visually monitoring of co2 diffusion will be easier.

6.
Make the baffle marked with yellow arrow lower than baffle marked A by 1 to 1.5 inch for smoother flow.

7.
Have at least 2 inch gap between baffles as marked. Easier to clean the bottom. More smoother flow.

8.
Make sure that all the baffles have at least 1 inch gap from the top of the tank. In a worst case scenario, if for some reason all the chambers do get blocked, water should still be able to flow to the last chamber where the return pump is. The added space would also be able to take the return water if water back flows from the return pipe into the sump. This might never happen but you never know. It's like insurance.

9.
If you haven't bought the return pump, go for a DC pump rather than a AC pump.
Get a DC pump that is slightly overrated ( example: if your current need is 1000 lph, go for higher output). DC pumps can be dialed back (better flow control) and the new models come with slow start ( not available with AC pumps).
With spare flow capacity from the pump available to you, you can upgrade to a Co2 reactor when the time comes, have more flow in your tank when you change your scape (less dead spot areas in tank)...the list goes on.

I'm sure the other members can chip in too.

BTW, what kind of overflow system are you planning...Herbie style...etc...?

PS. You can even remove the plastic bio balls and add more bio-media....just a thought. What do you think?

Keep us updated.
Take care


----------



## ian_m

There is a failure mode not covered in the above picture.

If the sock or other filter media blocks up the pump will lower the level in the final chamber exposing the heater. You need to put the heater in the first chamber, where it will never be dry or put a float valve in to stop the pump if water level in final chamber gets too low.

I also think you need the top of the baffles to be slightly lower to allow greater overflow if the filter media gets blocked.


----------



## Zak Rafik

ian_m said:


> There is a failure mode not covered in the above picture.
> 
> If the sock or other filter media blocks up the pump will lower the level in the final chamber exposing the heater. You need to put the heater in the first chamber, where it will never be dry or put a float valve in to stop the pump if water level in final chamber gets too low.
> 
> I also think you need the top of the baffles to be slightly lower to allow greater overflow if the filter media gets blocked.



Great point about the heater @ian_m 
Haha...me living in a country where I never get to use a heater. I really missed that one completely.
@Something Fishy You can try having the heater laying on it side ( horizontally ) if the width of your sump permits it and for added safety, have the return pump raised by 1 inch above the width of the heater. In this way, there will always be water and the heater will be submerged.  But as Ian_m, mentioned having the heater in the filter sock chamber is more safer.

As to your second point ian_m, I did mention it in point no 8.

Take Care.


----------



## Something Fishy

Some great points guys, super appreciative of your inputs. I'll have another go on the diagram and reshare here.  Thanks for the kudos though on the detail  anyone would think I am a designer haha.  Heater would fit flat and I like that idea Zak!

Would Co2 in the last chamber mix well enough? Would it be worth adding some bio balls in that last chamber in some way instead to act as a 'mixing' agent? I do have a Dennerle CO2 mixer you put on a pump, I mean I could use that too!


----------



## ian_m

These people design and make sumps.
http://www.fistafiltration.co.uk/index.html


----------



## zozo

FYI  I run a sump, lately i was in need of a new pump.. Went to the LFS and actualy ask for an Eheim. LFS adviced me against it and offered me an Eden pump.. Cheaper and dead sillent.. First i was sceptic, said yeah right, what esle would you say if you have no Eheim in your collection?  But i got a no good money back garanty and it comes with a 3 year factury warrenty. Tho most say also have some Eden heaters and these served me well already for several years.. Anyway took the chance, bought the Eden pump and it lives up to what is promissed, performes better than expected and indeed dead silent. Not a bad deal at all..  Eheim has some very serious competition here.. 

http://www.edensrl.com/index.php?id=25


----------



## Something Fishy

Not at all jealous of you living in Singapore Zak! Love it there.

Boys, this is what I was thinking of as I have one already - recon it has a place in a sump? https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/co2-accessories/1107-dennerle-co2-cyclo-turbo-4001615030679.html


----------



## Something Fishy

zozo said:


> FYI  I run a sump, lately i was in need of a new pump.. Went to the LFS and actualy ask for an Eheim. LFS adviced me against it and offered me an Eden pump.. Cheaper and dead sillent.. First i was sceptic, said yeah right, what esle would you say if you have no Eheim in your collection?  But i got a no good money back garanty and it comes with a 3 year factury warrenty. Tho most say also have some Eden heaters and these served me well already for several years.. Anyway took the chance, bought the Eden pump and it lives up to what is promissed, performes better than expected and indeed dead silent. Not a bad deal at all..  Eheim has some very serious competition here..
> 
> http://www.edensrl.com/index.php?id=25



Nice one! Any in particular dude? I actually have a TMC V2 pump already but I will check it out, my pump isn't the quietest :/


----------



## Zak Rafik

Something Fishy said:


> Not at all jealous of you living in Singapore Zak! Love it there.
> 
> Boys, this is what I was thinking of as I have one already - recon it has a place in a sump? https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/co2-accessories/1107-dennerle-co2-cyclo-turbo-4001615030679.html



It can be used provided that your your tank size is not to big and you don't have co2 demanding plants or densely planted. IMO, I would go for a minimum of co2 ceramic diffusion method.
BTW what's your tank volume, type of scape you're planning? Would be great to know!

Take care. 

PS. I had registered a blog under the same name as your username (Something Fishy) many years ago. I had wanted to start a blog on the fascinating world of planted tank but family matters don't permit the time.


----------



## zozo

Something Fishy said:


> Nice one! Any in particular dude? I actually have a TMC V2 pump already but I will check it out, my pump isn't the quietest :/



I have a very small sump on 110L tank, i took the Eden 128, 600 - 1150 l/h and 2m q/h.. Still a bit overpowered on max output. I'm about at 6 x turnover.. I payed € 27,-. E-heim equivalent Compact 1000 and Juwel 1000 are both with less head pressure and with 2 years less warranty. Both over € 40,-. 

Having a sump i hear water splash in the drain a little, like i little idylic stream in the background. I actualy do not hear the pump over it. 

No idea how the noise is with much more power. I gues more, so that beeing silent obviously would be relative to that as well. But they construct the impellers like this


 

Thicker shaft and better bearing and different blade design, than other less silent pumps i had..


----------



## Something Fishy

Haha love it - get the blog going dude!

Tanks are 22l Iwagumi style (tiny haha so want to get all the gear out of it and increase water volume amap!) and a 75l (desert ADA fairly heavy planted - java bogwood green etc) tank is the plan, and I have a 350l in the pipeline that was going to be marine but I think will be planted also like one I saw in Amano's book - two planted rock sections split in the middle with sand! Once I am happy my sump idea I will just copy and paste accordingly really!

Updated my sump based on comments, so first chamber is sock and heater flat on the bottom, with water that overflows, then all foams various PPI, then bio / other such as bamboo/carbon/purigen, and final one is much larger now to allow more fill and account for evaporation - and a CO2 reactor in there with a mini pump to mix and push into return pump.

I could seal with some sort of flexi rubber lid, or just lid the last chamber for the minimal gas loss?

How's that looking now fellas?


----------



## Zak Rafik

Something Fishy said:


> Haha love it - get the blog going dude!
> 
> Tanks are 22l Iwagumi style (tiny haha so want to get all the gear out of it and increase water volume amap!) and a 75l (desert ADA fairly heavy planted - java bogwood green etc) tank is the plan, and I have a 350l in the pipeline that was going to be marine but I think will be planted also like one I saw in Amano's book - two planted rock sections split in the middle with sand! Once I am happy my sump idea I will just copy and paste accordingly really!
> 
> Updated my sump based on comments, so first chamber is sock and heater flat on the bottom, with water that overflows, then all foams various PPI, then bio / other such as bamboo/carbon/purigen, and final one is much larger now to allow more fill and account for evaporation - and a CO2 reactor in there with a mini pump to mix and push into return pump.
> 
> I could seal with some sort of flexi rubber lid, or just lid the last chamber for the minimal gas loss?
> 
> How's that looking now fellas?



Hi,
Awesome! 3 tanks!

I suppose the new sump will be for the 350L.

All the chambers in the updated design looks good and simple to maintain except for the 1st chamber with filter sock. If you want the water to be evenly heated before it moves on the the other chambers, it's best you have that chamber built like in your 1st drawing. See below pix.

According to the now updated design, water entering in the sump can just spill over to the bio media chamber resulting in uneven heating or none at all if the the filter sock overflows.

Also have the 1st baffle the same height as in your 1st drawing. This way untreated water will have only one way to flow to the other chambers and it must flow past the heater.

BTW, have you considered running 2 heaters rather than 1?
This way, the water had more surface area to come into contact with the heaters. Also running 2 heaters provides you with some form of backup (fall back) if one heater should break down. I haven't experienced this personally but have read that heaters tend to break down faster than any equipment in a tank.

Take care.


----------



## Something Fishy

Thanks for that Zak  You're a star.  I have also had some input on plantedtank.net - Swiss Tropicals have been brought to my attention, and their idea of just using foams - so I may try that!

The sumps would be for all the tanks dude ideally, especially the 22l really to increase water vol!

The co2 pump mixing idea is working well, the Dennerle Turbo is proving a great shout!

Cheers


----------



## hotashes

Something Fishy said:


> Thanks for that Zak  You're a star.  I have also had some input on plantedtank.net - Swiss Tropicals have been brought to my attention, and their idea of just using foams - so I may try that!
> 
> The sumps would be for all the tanks dude ideally, especially the 22l really to increase water vol!
> 
> The co2 pump mixing idea is working well, the Dennerle Turbo is proving a great shout!
> 
> Cheers



Just a quick one, I have hard plumbed my sump and will be adding pressurised co2.  I will need to use the ideas you have. So you mention the dennerle unit and also have a small reactor in the last chamber in the drawing.  Is this what you will be switching to?  Can I have links to both u it's please.


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


----------



## Something Fishy

Sure Hot - we are both on both forums it seems about the same topic haha!

This is where I got the reactor / mixer 

He is out of stock currently so you might have to ping him a message, they are £30 plus on other sites so I used pro shrimp for that reason! You could Google the name and find them more expensive elsewhere.

Pumpwise, something like this is perfect for that depending on your tank size and co2 rate.

As I said, you can tweak the input on the Dennerle mixer to suit your needs for more or less mixing to / flow rate.

Failing that if you wanted a no pump / quick fix, you could try one of these as I heard good things about them also but not tried.


----------



## Something Fishy

Have you sorted the injection too? I am using a SIP welding cannister with the co2art adapter and a solenoid, as it tends to last a little longer than the others. I would consider a large refillable cannister/fire extinguisher though.


----------



## hotashes

Something Fishy said:


> Have you sorted the injection too? I am using a SIP welding cannister with the co2art adapter and a solenoid, as it tends to last a little longer than the others. I would consider a large refillable cannister/fire extinguisher though.



Thanks for the input, when I finally start a log in sure it would be good to see you there my friend.  I will keep those bits and bobs noted, as for the canister, I have 5kg extinguisher X 2.  They are just out of date but for the price I guess it was a no brainier.  Others have got the same and using them with no issues thus far.  Unless the ones you get are decently priced *grin*

Thanks again, Ash


Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
Peace


----------



## Something Fishy

hotashes said:


> Thanks for the input, when I finally start a log in sure it would be good to see you there my friend.  I will keep those bits and bobs noted, as for the canister, I have 5kg extinguisher X 2.  They are just out of date but for the price I guess it was a no brainier.  Others have got the same and using them with no issues thus far.  Unless the ones you get are decently priced *grin*
> 
> Thanks again, Ash
> 
> 
> Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.
> Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time,
> Peace


Sounds good Ash I’ll look out for your threads!

I spend about a tenner on each canister but they are 390g so no as large as an extinguisher!


----------



## Something Fishy

So here’s the sump guys just soaking the filter sponges (smells of acrylic!!) and here’s the first little nano tank this ones going on to increase volume and keep everything out of it! Any reason when a plastic version is used with a form of comb or grill that this overflow idea wouldn’t work? Trying to KISS still and see so many over complicated overflows for sumps.


----------



## Something Fishy

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acrylic-Cy...-Table-Flower-Stander-Road-Lead-/311754680805 One of these in essence


----------



## hotashes

What is the acrylic vase for?


Ashley..
Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace ️


----------



## Something Fishy

Sorry hotashes  The pictures I took up there show the glass in place currently in my tank, I wanted to use this acrylic vase for the overflow for the sump idea.


----------



## hotashes

Something Fishy said:


> Sorry hotashes  The pictures I took up there show the glass in place currently in my tank, I wanted to use this acrylic vase for the overflow for the sump idea.



Ok, thought you were going to use it to make a DIY reactor for CO2.


Ashley..
Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.  
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace ️


----------



## Something Fishy

hotashes said:


> Ok, thought you were going to use it to make a DIY reactor for CO2.
> 
> 
> Ashley..
> Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems.
> Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace ️



Ah sorry! Yeah could do really I can take a pic of the one I have running at tinge moment. Probably cheaper to buy the Dennerle one to be honest! I can’t see any reason this overflow wouldn’t work though for a sump - how are you doing the overflow?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Something Fishy

Quick one guys - how do you prevent evaporation from the tank but ensure it happens in the sump? Something I’m not completely sure of with this Swiss Tropicals no baffle design?


----------



## Chris Tinker

@Zak Rafik just read all of this... what ever happened? @zozo do you know?


----------



## zozo

Chris Tinker said:


> do you know?



No i don't.


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## Chris Tinker

zozo said:


> No i don't.


Thought you might have seen it move somewhere else. Damn it. Its like reading a book and not knowing the last 50 pages have been torn out


----------



## Mr.Shenanagins

Sad to see this thread didn’t come to fruition, but I just did my first sump for my 40 Breeder using several of the materials mentioned in the thread. I’ll post pictures and explain shortly for anyone else considering a sump setup.


----------



## Mr.Shenanagins

Ok so my tank is a 40 gallon breeder and I went with the Eshoppes Bean Animal overflow. The sump is a 20 gallon high that I have divided into three sections (drain, biomedia, return/CO2). The sections are divided simply by 2” thick poret foam. The first foam barrier is 30ppi and the next one is 20ppi. It does an excellent job of trapping debris and keeping my main tank clean. The return pump I’m using is a Jebao DCP 2500 that I currently run at 50% which would be around 350 gallons per hour if I’m not mistaken. There is plenty of flow in the tank and despite lots of negative reviews on jebao products it’s working excellent. In regards to my CO2 injection, I made venturi style reactor using a Rio180 pump that works great. It makes a really fine mist once the container starts to really fill with CO2. You will not see the micro bubbles unless you are face to the glass and looking for them, it works that well. I have the reactor sitting directly over my return pump so that when the CO2 finally escapes the reactor, it is immediately sucked into the pump and distributed to the tank. My only current gripe is the lack surface movement in the sump, each chamber is a little stagnant at the top and you can see the biofilm. Not the end of the world but I just don’t care for it. I may use a small power head to just get some movement, but that is the only downside to using the foam as baffles.


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## Mr.Shenanagins

Spoke to Stephen at Swiss Tropicals about my concerns with lack of surface flow in the sump, this is what he had to say: “_*I would do nothing, it's not harming anything and it is also not blocking gas exchange or affecting filtration. It's common to see surface films and flocking detritus in sumps due to microbial activity*_.”

I guess I’ll leave it as is then, it makes sense since the cascading water from the overflow disturbs the water enough to provide gaseous exchange.


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## Michael1212

Interesting idea with the foam baffles Mr Shenanagins.  I was reading that 20ppi foam is the equivalent of 840 microns.  How effective is that as mechanical filtration?  I would have presumed a lot of visible particles would escape to the display tank.  I guess one advantage of the surface scum is that it would keep more c02 in.


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## Something Fishy

Similar to the one I did mate. It looks fine and will work well. 

In the end the hassle of using a hangon overflow, noise of the sump slurping and the sump sucking all my shrimps and bits in, plus the need for a pump cut off when the sump level drops (I flooded a couple of times) ended up making me go back to an Eheim for a simple weekly clean.

I do hope this works for you though and I see no reason it won’t 

I’ve got another hang on overflow and piping you’re welcome to if you want to pay the postage. Cost me about 60 quid on eBay from a reef seller. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Shenanagins

Michael1212 said:


> Interesting idea with the foam baffles Mr Shenanagins.  I was reading that 20ppi foam is the equivalent of 840 microns.  How effective is that as mechanical filtration?  I would have presumed a lot of visible particles would escape to the display tank.  I guess one advantage of the surface scum is that it would keep more c02 in.



it works quite well, very little floating debris in the sump or the tank. You could always add something like floss to catch finer particles. My main goal was surface area for bacteria and the foam is a massive breeding ground for it. the only thing I don’t like about the sump is the detritus, something you don’t see with a canister until you decide to clean it. But, plenty of mulm for when you want to start another tank.


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## Geoffrey Rea

The detritus and subsequent removal of it was one of the main concerns when putting together a simple sump last year.






Having a large first chamber and gentle flow results in all the detritus collecting on the left at the bottom of the first chamber in this design. Despite large turnover the speed of the movement of water from chamber to chamber is slow, so it settles. When draining it, the whole lot gets sucked up by the shepherds hook and regularly removed. Nothing really makes it to the final chamber despite how easy it looks to do so.





If any shrimp go AWOL through the overflow unit they can only be in the filter box with the foam as the exit holes are 0.5mm on the drip plate, so easily collected and returned to the display.

Recently saw a discussion where someone was trying to entice the mulm to gather for easy removal but can’t remember the post.  Maybe food for thought.


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## Michael1212

What is the gallons per hour your are pushing through the sump, and what is the cross sectional area for flow connecting the first and second chamber to achieve gentle flow but high turnover?  Also, what do you mean by a shepherds hook?  I'm interested in any ideas that might help to keep a sump ocd clean


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## anewbie

Having looked through a bit of this thread I have a question. I notice a lot of people use bio-balls and similar in their sumps. It was my understanding (perhaps false) that 20ppi and 30ppi sponges are far more effective at bio-filtering than bio-balls as well as less expensive. So my question is why do people use bio-balls instead of sponges ?


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## HarrietHippo

Does anyone have any long-term feedback on their sumps for planted tanks? @Zak Rafik @zozo @Something Fishy .  Still using them and happy? I am contemplating a 120g / 550L tank with a Herbie style overflow (Waterbox marine tank). I like the ability to have most everything out of the main tank, only mildly concerned about flood potential, just trying to get head around co2 off-gassing.  Hoping I could hook a large co2 reactor up to the return pump.

Not sure if it helps @anewbie but I am planning to add sponges rather than bioballs. (Mainly from a physical filtration points of view, for bio was thinking ceramic noodles)


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## zozo

HarrietHippo said:


> Still using them and happy?


Yup! Both still, since 2015 the tank is still up and running and have 0 complaints.








						The Stove & Its Flowering Anubias.
					

Thank you... :)  The Alocasia didn't during the winter period... That's the issue with this tank it is for the biggest part naturally lit, it stands directly under a sky light. I can grow anything during the summer, but when the light and temps decrease during the winter they suffer too much and...



					www.ukaps.org


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## foxfish

If you are planning to run a high tec 550l tank then I would assume you have already found a good affordable C02 supply because you are going to use plenty of it.
 What little more gas that might be consumed, wont be as significant as having  a good suppy to start with.
There is no disputing that a sump can be run very sucssefully on a planted tank, I have used them for decades however they are not a requirement, more like a personal choice.
The plants themselves will provide a very effective biologically active and stable environment so you wont need huge amounts of space for biological media.
 I think you should only use a sump if you want to, because you like the idea, not because it will grow better plants.
There are a few potential issues  although mostly those will be during set up and can be ironed out as you go along.
Evaporation is one consideration , noise and safety as well.


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## HarrietHippo

Oh wow good to hear thanks guys. Cheers @foxfish, good to know I'm not committing any egregious errors.  Sumps and CO2 are often considered mutually exclusive and it has been great to hear from people who have been and done this for proper planted tanks.  Yes, not looking for better plants, just a way to hide 2 x filter pipe inlets and outlets, macro and micro dosing tubes, heaters etc.  Dialling in flow to catch suspended material in the water column will be interesting as I am used to the Eheim inlets which pick material up from close to the bottom of the tank, whereas the sump obviously uses the overflow box and takes from the top of the tank. Bonus that this will perform some surface skimming. 

You hit the nail on the head with the easily available CO2 supply. This is a major consideration which has changed over the last decade (at least in NZ).  We have transitioned from a 'man in a van who can do you a deal' economy to full-on health and safety conscious marketplace where if the valve isn't completely open when dropping off the co2 tank they have to wait several hours to handle the bottle in case they accidentally get flash frozen like Han Solo and you then have to pick the tank up the next day. Many places now have a 3 day turnaround and the market has moved into easy swap (drop bottle off and exchange for a standardised pre-filled bottle) if you want something quicker.  Increased overheads have led to increased refills prices as well.  All this to say definitely investigate this part of the equation in your local market and current market prices and practices if anyone else is reading this later and considering co2 + sump.


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