# Sudden Ammonia Spike



## LT_Ryan (13 Sep 2017)

Hi guys,

Long time lurker but new to posting. I'm looking for some clarity if anyone can be of any help.

I have a heavily planted 425L Aquarium with two cycled 406fluval canister filters (pictures coming soon). I dose EI with Co2 and check my water weekly, its usually - 0/0/20, or less.

After reading a few threads I decided it would be a great idea to add an air stone overnight via an old old sponge filter I used in my shrimp tank about a year ago. I soaked it and even boiled the sponges to clean then off. Then added to my tank, since then I've ran into as high as 0.1ppm Ammonia with one casualty, R.I.P Cory.
Immediately I did a 70% water change. Following day reading 0.5ppm Ammonia and changed another 70% water change. And now I'm sitting here again, its around 0.25ppm and I suddenly realised could it be the air sponge filter ? I have removed it anyhow and added some surface agitation.

Other than that - 
Placed root tabs last week- ammonia free as far as I can tell, a couple of them have surfaced though.
MTS have been breeding like mad.
No other fish deaths, checked the entire aquarium multiple times.

I'm out of ideas otherwise

Cheers
Ryan


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## Natasha (13 Sep 2017)

Which root tabs and do you have an ingredient list? Some may contain urea or other substances that may lead to an ammonia spike.


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## Natasha (13 Sep 2017)

P.s - if the tabs haven't come with a list - stick a root tab in a glass of water and let it dissolve for a bit - test that water for ammonia.


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## Zeus. (13 Sep 2017)

Maybe! The airstone extra current/flow cause by the rising bubbles is increasing the substrate flow which in turn is affecting the pre airstone equilibrium and the Ammonia in the substrate is being put back into the water column faster than your filters can cope with it ATM.

If this is the case the airstone may have been to close to the substrate. The filters will catch up in time just needs more time for the bacteria to respond to the increased demand.

Just a hunch

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## LT_Ryan (13 Sep 2017)

Natasha said:


> Which root tabs and do you have an ingredient list? Some may contain urea or other substances that may lead to an ammonia spike.



I purchased these on eBay, panda Corey keep digging them up unfortunately.

each tablet contains a NPK fertiliser blend 17-9-11 (2) with micro nutrients

17% nitrogen (N)
9% phosphorous pentoxide (P2O5)
11% Potassium oxide (K2O)
2% Magnesium oxide (MgO)
0.01% Boron (B) 0.006% soluble in water
0.025% Copper (Cu) 0.017% soluble in water ** see note below **
0.22% Iron (Fe) of which soluble in water , chelated by EDTA 0.033%
0.03% Manganesebr />0.01% Molybdenum 0.008% soluble in water
0.008% Zinc

Although these tablets contain copper which is usually harmful to shrimp and snails, it is in such low levels and as it is in the substrate, will not enter the water column and harm your delicate livestock. These tablets are used in planted tanks worldwide and are proven shrimp and snail safe


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## LT_Ryan (13 Sep 2017)

Zeus. said:


> Maybe! The airstone extra current/flow cause by the rising bubbles is increasing the substrate flow which in turn is affecting the pre airstone equilibrium and the Ammonia in the substrate is being put back into the water column faster than your filters can cope with it ATM.
> 
> If this is the case the airstone may have been to close to the substrate. The filters will catch up in time just needs more time for the bacteria to respond to the increased demand.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this,

The air stone was actually pretty far above the substrate.

I thought similar as far as the root tab planting disturbed the substrate, but I clean it regularly along the tank only being setup 6 months and hugely understocked.


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## LT_Ryan (13 Sep 2017)

Okay,

My minded is blown, one hour post sponge air filter removal and without a water change. 
My ammonia is reading a 0pm.

Mystery solved. 
Never heard this happening after being in the hobby 5 years +. But it definitely makes sense.


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## dw1305 (13 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





LT_Ryan said:


> My minded is blown, one hour post sponge air filter removal and without a water change.
> My ammonia is reading a 0pm.


 I don't think it was the sponge, but the added oxygen may have raised the pH above pH7? and converted any relatively benign ammonium (NH4+) into toxic ammonia (NH3). 





Natasha said:


> Which root tabs and do you have an ingredient list? Some may contain urea or other substances that may lead to an ammonia spike.





LT_Ryan said:


> each tablet contains a NPK fertiliser blend 17-9-11 (2) with micro nutrients
> 
> 17% nitrogen (N)
> 9% phosphorous pentoxide (P2O5)
> 11% Potassium oxide (K2O)


My suspicion is much more that that is the source. The units are a bit confusing (fertilisers are traditionally quoted as the oxides of P and K, but the elemental concentration would make much more sense).

Because there isn't much potassium (K), you can discount potassium nitrate (KNO3) as a major ingredient. Potassium nitrate is ~38% K and 49% NO3, but only 14% N.

This means the nitrogen source is one out of:

urea (CH4N2O) and 48% N,
ammonium sulphate ((NH4)2SO4)  and 21% N,
or ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) and 34% N.
You can do the same sort of calculation for the phosphorus and potassium contents, to go from P2O5 to P you need to multiply by 0.44 (44% P) and from K2O to K by 0.81

cheers Darrel


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## LT_Ryan (13 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, I don't think it was the sponge, but the added oxygen may have raised the pH above pH7? and converted any relatively benign ammonium (NH4+) into toxic ammonia (NH3).  My suspicion is much more that that is the source. The units are a bit confusing (fertilisers are traditionally quoted as the oxides of P and K, but the elemental concentration would make much more sense).
> 
> Because there isn't much potassium (K), you can discount potassium nitrate (KNO3) as a major ingredient. Potassium nitrate is ~38% K and 49% NO3, but only 14% N.
> 
> ...



Thank you Darrel.

Going to play it by ear, will water test / change if required tomorrow morning.

 I most certainly will not be buying root tabs again. Is there anything I can do other than ride it out ? It would be extremely difficult to remove the tabs / however I can continually remove the little yellow balls from the tabs that pop up here and there.

Cheers


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## dw1305 (13 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





LT_Ryan said:


> Going to play it by ear, will water test / change if required tomorrow morning.
> 
> I most certainly will not be buying root tabs again. Is there anything I can do other than ride it out ? It would be extremely difficult to remove the tabs / however I can continually remove the little yellow balls from the tabs that pop up here and there.
> 
> Cheers


The little yellow balls are the resin coat of a controlled release fertiliser (something like Osmocote). These are meant to release their nutrients over along time period, but release is dependent upon warmth and wetness. This is fine in terrestrial plants, as warm and wet indicates growing conditions, but in a tank it just means that nutrient release is a lot less controlled than you would want it to be.

In the short term a few more water changes. If you have a reasonably large plant mass it should take up the extra nitrogen. I don't add CO2, so I use floating plants as my nutrient sponges (they have access to aerial CO2), but with elevated levels of CO2 submerged plants will fill this role, although even with 30ppm CO2 you are still a long way from the 400ppm in the atmosphere. 

If you use EI you shouldn't need to add any root tabs, plants can only take up nutrients as ions (charged particles in solution) and they can get these from solution even if they are "heavy root feeders".

cheers Darrel


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## LT_Ryan (13 Sep 2017)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all,The little yellow balls are the resin coat of a controlled release fertiliser (something like Osmocote). These are meant to release their nutrients over along time period, but release is dependent upon warmth and wetness. This is fine in terrestrial plants, as warm and wet indicates growing conditions, but in a tank it just means that nutrient release is a lot less controlled than you would want it to be.
> 
> In the short term a few more water changes. If you have a reasonably large plant mass it should take up the extra nitrogen. I don't add CO2, so I use floating plants as my nutrient sponges (they have access to aerial CO2), but with elevated levels of CO2 submerged plants will fill this role, although even with 30ppm CO2 you are still a long way from the 400ppm in the atmosphere.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the information.

I guess I felt more is better but in this situation it has been worse.

I'm still relatively new to pressurized co2 all my previous tanks have been successful low techs - with plenty of floating plants  at the moment I'm dosing low co2 around 15ppm which is having great success.

Lots of water changes. Cheers


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## dw1305 (14 Sep 2017)

Hi all,





LT_Ryan said:


> at the moment I'm dosing low co2 around 15ppm which is having great success.


You may be able to use lower rates of fertiliser addition than full EI.

I'm not a CO2 user, but others may have run with similar levels of CO2 addition.

cheers Darrel


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## sparkyweasel (14 Sep 2017)

LT_Ryan said:


> MTS have been breeding like mad.


That's usually a sign of overfeeding.


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## colinquilliam1 (7 Oct 2017)

Just a thought, how often do you clean the filter pipes? Lots of people tend to just do the filter and forget the pipes hidden at the back of the tank. It happens when you get a build up of algae in the pipes and more so with aquasoil. If you have looked at all other options (dead plant matter, over feeding, dead fish etc) then i would check the pipes. 
I dont worry too much about putting air in there. One idea to balance things out that i use is to leave my co2 off for a few days. Let the plants feed off the amonia for a bit and whatever else is in there. Do another test and see how you are from there. Good luck

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## Zeus. (8 Oct 2017)

colinquilliam1 said:


> Just a thought, how often do you clean the filter pipes? Lots of people tend to just do the filter and forget the pipes hidden at the back of the tank. It happens when you get a build up of algae in the pipes and more so with aquasoil. If you have looked at all other options (dead plant matter, over feeding, dead fish etc) then i would check the pipes.
> I dont worry too much about putting air in there. One idea to balance things out that i use is to leave my co2 off for a few days. Let the plants feed off the amonia for a bit and whatever else is in there. Do another test and see how you are from there. Good luck
> 
> Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk


Can't quite work out how leaving the CO2 off would help things. As increasing the [CO2] will increase photosynthesis which in turn via plant growth should increase plants uptake of nutrients esp nitrates which would increase the conversion of the nitrites and then the Ammonia. Unless I'm missing something!

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## colinquilliam1 (8 Oct 2017)

Because the plants will feed off whatever is in there first. Its worked in mine for years Zeus

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## Zeus. (8 Oct 2017)

Sounds more like you turned the CO2 off for a few days and in that time the tank finished it's cycling. But by turning the CO2 off you increased the chance of algea issues, plus slowed down the reduction of ammonia levels, as thriving plants help reduce the ammonia levels and CO2 help plants thrive.
It's like saying the antibiotics the doctor gave me cured my cold. But the truth is the doctor gave you antibiotics to shut me up as I was complaining. My immune system cured the cold the antibiotics may of helped but unlickly.

Sent from Mountolympus via neural interface


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## colinquilliam1 (8 Oct 2017)

Ok. My tanks are all fine, no algae, no amonia issues, plants all healthy and growing really well, fish and shrimp all breeding like mad. My co2 has been off since Thursday. I dont need to do massive weekly water changes or dose ferts every day either. I do a 50% wc maybe every month. Trim the plants when i need to. 

So whatever i am doing wrong seems to be working fine and has done for many years. Thats why i dont worry about everyones opinions. 

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## Zeus. (8 Oct 2017)

colinquilliam1 said:


> Ok. My tanks are all fine, no algae, no amonia issues, plants all healthy and growing really well, fish and shrimp all breeding like mad. My co2 has been off since Thursday. I dont need to do massive weekly water changes or dose ferts every day either. I do a 50% wc maybe every month. Trim the plants when i need to.
> 
> So whatever i am doing wrong seems to be working fine and has done for many years. Thats why i dont worry about everyones opinions.



Great to hear you having great success as thats all that matters after all. I was just trying to understand the reasons/Science why your method works, maybe reports or some post/thread from an expert like Darrel,Clive or T Barr or youtube clip of D Wongs. The reason why your method works doesnt seem to make sense to me thats all. I was just after the rational behind it that's all. Its like the statement 'frogs go deaf when you cut off their legs' based on the fact they no longer move once their legs are removed which is obviously bad science drawn on the observations of the testing person.


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## colinquilliam1 (8 Oct 2017)

Zeus, its just from experience comes knowlege. I've had aquariums for many many years. Started with co2 a few years ago. Always had live plants and found that good subtrate choices, good ferts, lighting etc and trial and error help. 

Too many people go by what they read in books or on the net which is good but everyones tank is different. Different water quality and treatments in different countries etc. Lots of river plants dont get a high intake of co2, thats something we put in to just speed up the process. So when you balance it that way, river plants dont get much co2 until they grow to the surface and even then they dont use much. 

People have kept fish and planted tanks for decades without co2. When the green machine first started in the uk 2008/9, they amazed people with new ideas & techniques. I know because i was there and know Jimmy very well. But one thing to remember, he is a very very good aquascaper but is also a business man who wants to make money at the end of the day. ADA is a business out to make money and will sell you anything that may work for them but not others. I have friends at ADA too who would agree. Its all a learning curve that deprives us of money for our hobby. The old ways are still good before the hi tech took over and thats something i have had long conversations with jimmy over when he first started out. Nature finds a way to adapt. Imagine taking supliments every day to help us grow strong and healthy. If we run out we find other stuff to eat and use up whatever to get what we need. Bear Grills likes steak dinners but drinks his own pee to survive in the wild. Hope that helps. 

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## Zeus. (8 Oct 2017)

Been to TGM and it's all about the profit OFC but that's business.
As for Bear Grills eating steak for lunch me too given the chance, there's lots of evidence to show the health gains of a Paleo Diet. Same for drinking pee in wild to survive I would too, esp considering the pee from a man is pretty bacteria free. 

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## ceg4048 (8 Oct 2017)

Turning off CO2 does nothing to accelerate the use of NH3 by plants and does not detoxify ammonia.
In fact, it is just the opposite. The more Carbon a plant uses the more Nitrogen it will consume.
The opposite is also true. Carbon and Nitrogen usage is coupled.
This is the main reason that when CO2 is added to the tank the hobbyist must pay attention to nutrition.
This can be accomplished in many different ways. In the ADA system the nutrition is based primarily in the sediment. As the sediment content is reduced by consumption and water changes ADA implements supplements via their liquid which are identical to the raw products we can buy at the garden center.

Additionally, NH4 (ammonium) is much less toxic than NH3 (ammonia). These two compounds exist in equilibrium, where under acidic conditions (at pH below 7) the less toxic NH4 is more prevalent and under alkaline conditions (at pH above 7) the highly toxic NH3 is prevalent.

Adding CO2 will always reduce the waters pH due to conversion to Carbonic acid. This is well known and fundamental fact.

Therefore, reducing the CO2 will have the effect of reducing the plants ability to uptake NH3/NH4 and it will tend to increase the pH and so will increase the risk of toxicity.

So lots of people do the wrong thing and get away with it for a variety of reasons, because the subject of biology involves so many factors at play which have effects and counter-effects.

Simply having a lot of plant mass will reduce the NH3/NH4 concentration levels quickly, regardless of pH or CO2 concentration, for example.

We do not actually know WHY the OP's fish died. No autopsy was performed and just because he THINKS that it was due to ammonia this does not mean that was actually the case, especially since he was using a hobby grade Nitrogen test kit, which is notoriously inaccurate. 

So it's not a good suggestion to reduce the CO2 - unless it is actually the CO2 concentration levels that are damaging the fish.

Cheers,


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## Planted Bows (9 Oct 2017)

colinquilliam1 said:


> Zeus, its just from experience comes knowlege. I've had aquariums for many many years. Started with co2 a few years ago. Always had live plants and found that good subtrate choices, good ferts, lighting etc and trial and error help.
> 
> Too many people go by what they read in books or on the net which is good but everyones tank is different. Different water quality and treatments in different countries etc. Lots of river plants dont get a high intake of co2, thats something we put in to just speed up the process. So when you balance it that way, river plants dont get much co2 until they grow to the surface and even then they dont use much.
> 
> ...


I absolutely love this comment!! 

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