# Oxygen in a planted tank.



## andyh (28 Aug 2009)

People of UKAPS! A question, wasnt sure where to post this?

Do i need oxygen in a tank overnight. I see from reading about Mr Amano, he raises his lilly pipe outlets to add O2 to the water for 14hrs overnight. I hear some people use a air pumps on a timer to come on once lights and co2 go off?

So my question is should i be doing it, is it worth it and why?

Don't go too techy on me either!


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## Dolly Sprint 16v (28 Aug 2009)

andyh said:
			
		

> People of UKAPS! A question, wasnt sure where to post this?
> 
> Do i need oxygen in a tank overnight. I see from reading about Mr Amano, he raises his lilly pipe outlets to add O2 to the water for 14hrs overnight. I hear some people use a air pumps on a timer to come on once lights and co2 go off?
> 
> ...



oxygen is always required within the tank - if not your fish will suffer. Raising the lily pipe at night will distrub the water surface allowing the residue Co2 to escape for the water. Co2 is not required during night time or hours of our darkness. If you tank is heavily stock then there may be a shortage of oxygen if the surface water has very limited movement - so yes it is worth doing. During tank light time the expelled gas from the fish is co2 is captured by the plant and they turn it into oxygen thus the fish use the oxygen and expelled gas is Co2 which is used by the plants. 

Hope this answers your question.

There is a thread on here somewhere regarding this - I remember reading it as Andy (Coley1) had a lot to say about it. 

Regards
paul


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## glenn (29 Aug 2009)

i read in PFK that plants at night take in 02 and give out co2 as a by product. so 02 levels will drop at night and co2 levels raise, so aireating at night is a good practice.


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## zig (29 Aug 2009)

Yes it is good practice and one I would recommend, I dont think enough of us do it though as standard practice on all our tanks myself included.


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## Mark Evans (29 Aug 2009)

zig said:
			
		

> Yes it is good practice and one I would recommend, I don't think enough of us do it though as standard practice on all our tanks myself included.



i do it  on autumn blush. have done from day one. thought I'd try it after seeing amano does it on every tank.

i've got the outlet in such a way, it pivots placing the angle bit of the head on the water line allowing the water to draw in air from the surface. it's the easiest thing in the world to do of a night and it keeps the surface like a mirror


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## GreenNeedle (29 Aug 2009)

I keep mine raised 24/7 and turn up the CO2 a little more to compensate.  If it were a case of raise/lower every day and the lily was under water in the day and a third above the water at night then I would either forget to lower it and lose the CO2 due to the injection being lower or forget to raise it anyway.

Doesn't do any harm by not raising it with a heavy fishload.  I did that for a long time prior to raising it.  I just found that water clarity improved visibly with more O in the water.

AC


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## Mark Evans (29 Aug 2009)

SuperColey1 said:
			
		

> I just found that water clarity improved visibly with more O in the water.



true. my co2 is on a solenoid also, so co2 off 1 hour before lights off....lights off, the add o2. the fish go mental when you add o2   

i'm not 100% sure if it helps, more than likely does, but this current tank of mine is the easiest i've kept in every sense, algae, growth....even with the high intensity lighting.

i just follow certain habits to the record and all things go good.


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## Dave Spencer (29 Aug 2009)

I use my powerheads to create a lot of surface disturbance 24/7. I have high CO2 and O2 with the lights on, and high O2 when they are off.

Dave.


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## zig (29 Aug 2009)

saintly said:
			
		

> zig said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We don't all use lily pipes though.

I bet not many people use or setup a seperate airpump for when the CO2 goes off at night thats really what I meant.

I think it should become standard practice for high light tanks in particular and included in all the "How to start a planted tank" manuals, I think its overlooked with all the focus on CO2, substrate, nutrients etc, we become blinded by the high tech science and get the basics wrong, just my opinion mind


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## aaronnorth (29 Aug 2009)

i just have my powerhead create a gentle ripple across the whole surface. 

Glenn, plants are always respiring so they are always utilising O2, and releasing CO2 into the water, the amount they do utilise/ release is minimal so the fish arent affected.
Also remeber it is possible to have an enriched CO2/ O2 aquarium at the same time, so if plant health is good so will be the water quality  
you will probably find CO2 gasses off quicker than the plants can raise the CO2 levels to deadly amounts.


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## davidcmadrid (1 Sep 2009)

I know it wastes a bit of CO2 but i have an airstone just under the intake to a powerhead on 24 hours a day.


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## andyh (6 Sep 2009)

Thanks guys, i have been away for a few days hence the delay in response. I am going to get an air pump on a timer. Was considering just lifting my return every night (but i will forget and travel a lot so automation is key.)

I will let you know how i get on.


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## Graeme Edwards (6 Sep 2009)

I have often thought about doing it, but never have. I have never seen my fish struggle or upset by me not doing so, so its never been an issue. I think, if you really want your fish to be happy and do all you can for them, then I would say do it.
Some situations perhaps demand it, but thats up to the individual.

If I was to do it, I would use a nice glass diffuser, just because,lol

Andy, why not polish you air with one of these......ummmmm, nice aroma this air has.....  

http://www.adana.co.jp/_e_product/46_index.html


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## andyh (6 Sep 2009)

Graeme Edwards said:
			
		

> I have often thought about doing it, but never have. I have never seen my fish struggle or upset by me not doing so, so its never been an issue. I think, if you really want your fish to be happy and do all you can for them, then I would say do it.
> Some situations perhaps demand it, but thats up to the individual.
> 
> If I was to do it, I would use a nice glass diffuser, just because,lol
> ...



"Polish my air" Are you pulling my leg "Big G" It sounds very geeky! (right up my street!)

I have not seen any glass diffusers yet for O2 yet, as i believe that air pumps wont work with CO2 type diffusers (pressure not sufficient) I will see you guys at TGM sunday for the Oliver knott day!


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## Stu Worrall (7 Sep 2009)

andyh said:
			
		

> I have not seen any glass diffusers yet for O2 yet, as i believe that air pumps wont work with CO2 type diffusers (pressure not sufficient) I will see you guys at TGM sunday for the Oliver knott day!


ADA do the o2 diffusers with bigger pores although ive also not seen any used on here


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## jonnyf84 (7 Sep 2009)

Mr Amano is correct but unfortunately there are few like him that have all day and all night to maintain our tanks, because of my unpredictable schedule all my tanks constantly have a koralia pump and lily pipe at the water surface with the koralia turned upwards to create a constant wave, this of course runs off a bit of the CO2 during the day but with roughly 2Bps for 100 Litres of water it is still plenty for the plants and at night it completely re-oxygenates the water.


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## plantbrain (7 Sep 2009)

Never use fragances. They have no testing done on any of them regarding both Human and Fish health over time.
In other words, they are exempt from toxicology testing(at least here in the USA  ).

If you stink or your tank does, clean it.

The phytocide is called high O2  

I think unless you measure O2 over the course of a day with a data logger, and say....CO2 at the same time, only then can you make some predictions about respiration of fish.

Here's an example from a mazzei driven Aquarium:




As you can clearly see, when you take the reading at one point in time does not tell you what is occuring really.
Same is true for O2.

Some aquariums likely have no such need for aeration at night or adjustment.
Amano's little bit about raising the lily pipe is reactionary......it is not about looking into why one aquarium vs another requires degassing, more O2 or understanding why fish gasp in one, but not the other/fish respiration etc.

This is why know why and looking into that, is important.
Very important if you ask me, it allows us to add more CO2, better O2 levels for fish etc.
CO2 kills more fish than any other single thing.

Amano has killed plenty of fish with CO2, ask him.
Read Book 1, he has an example and mentioned it.

In an ideal world, dosing daily, making adjustments daily sounds nice, but it's not realistic nor hardly everyone's goal.

Wiser to engineer things to account for human factors, errors and habits(all of which are different person to person).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## andyh (9 Sep 2009)

I have taken the plunge and fitted an Air pump (eheim 200) and got it on a timer come on after lights out and goes off before the Co2 starts. Will give feedback on how its goes.

The ehiem air stone is a little different! Grey thing at the back.


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## Anonymous (7 Jan 2011)

Any feedback andyh after 1 year? 

I didn't want to open another topic on this so I've posted here my questions:

What is the optimum oxygen level range in a high-tech planted tank? What is the best practice to keep that level? Does waste in external filters influences COD (Chemical Oxygen Demand) or it's not relevant, if it is, how often should the canister be cleaned?

Cheers,


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## Arana (7 Jan 2011)

I have an airpump on a timer that comes on at night and both the plants and the fish seem to really appreciate it


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## andyh (7 Jan 2011)

binned it after a week, it drove off all the co2 and caused a STAGHORN out break due to co2 instability!

I just made sure my flow was good!


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## plantbrain (7 Jan 2011)

clonitza said:
			
		

> What is the optimum oxygen level range in a high-tech planted tank? What is the best practice to keep that level? Does waste in external filters influences COD (Chemical Oxygen Demand) or it's not relevant, if it is, how often should the canister be cleaned?
> 
> Cheers,



I'd say 6-10ppm depends on Temp and time of day, but in general.
Use a wet/dry filter *correctly* for tanks 90cm or larger.
Yes, but so does cleaning frequency and other dependent variables(soil vs plain sand etc, rates of plant growth, quality of the growth vs sloughing of dead plant leaves/stems etc).

I tested canisters vs wet/dry filters and frankly........they kick the living snot out of the canisters.
In terms of CO2 and in terms of O2, wet/drys cannot be beat.

They are not particularly practical for small tanks, but they have not made small ones for smaller tanks. 
Not much $$ in it for them to make those.


A typical CO2/O2 range is high CO2 most of the 24 hour period, long slow rise/decline for CO2. O2 as well with about 6-9 ppm ranges. CO2 might only drop from 60ppm when on to 20ppm when off.
Surface scum is much higher.

In the wet dry systems, the O2 was 7-11ppm.
The drop from 60ppm of CO2 to 3 pm occurred in about 45 minutes.
Very rapid. The higher nighttime O2 is likely due to the high exchange rate and lack of surface scum.

Bottom wet/dry chamber is sealed FYI and the over flow is only 4-6cm drop.

Each treatment had 3 replicates and different tanks and had high flow and high plant biomass(100% coverage).
Only by measuring and data logging CO2 and O2 over time, can you make such observations.

But the CO2:O2 ratio is good to measure fish health, eg we CANNOT talk about what is a safe CO2 ppm *without *also knowing what the O2 is as well. Since respiration is CO2 and O2 exchange, the concentrations of both are critical to make any assessment. These 2 gases change within minutes and thus are very rapid parameters, they are also critical to livestock.

Nutrients are far less critical, even if most forums spend far more time worrying over such minor details. People kill and gas fish weekly on most forums, killing them via KNO3?  After 15 years posting and reading many forums/mailing list on the web, I have still yet to have seen someone do this.

I used an oxyguard CO2 monitor and a Hach LDO data logging HQ40 to measure the CO2 and the O2.
They make nice O2 meters for somewhat reasonable $$$.

Simple spot test kits can be a little bit useful, but they are generally never measured over the entire day/ cycle or 24 hour period, that is what is telling, not a discrete single point in time. No self respecting or respect limnologist would use or present data like that to make a general conclusion about a planted lake, stream, pond or river about the CO2/O2.

It also greatly depends on WHERE we take the measurement also.
I chose the upper 10cm near high flow in each aquarium.
If I chose the lowest flow, then these values will change and be less even.
Or if I chose deep within the plant beds, the CO2 and O2 would also be very different, or right at the sediment water column interface.

ADA's lily pipes are bad as far as I am concerned(need not fear ADA fanboys, I have a lily pipe on my 60p), while you can lift them up a bit to get more movement, this is also noisy. My solution was to add a tiny power head near the surface to add the flow required and without make a lot of bubbly noise. They also break if you move them without being very careful(done this a couple of times now). As water levels drop in tanks due to evaporation and us not topping them off daily etc, this changes the O2/CO2 exchange rates as well, this does not occur in wet/dry sump,s only the level in the sump changes, the flow characteristics in the tank itself remain constant.

Thus degassing and enrichment remain fairly constant regardless.

So dialing in a stable good rate of CO2 is easier. In canister filter systems, the CO2 is far more able to gas your fish and smaller changes will have a larger negative impact. So we get more fish security and more wiggle room dosing using a wet/dry.

But make sure to seal the sump wet/dry tower section good, otherwise the CO2 will degas.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## nry (7 Jan 2011)

I wonder then - many suggest that increasing flow in the aquarium is done to improve nutrient circulation (i.e. CO2 and the ferts).  This is why I added a Koralia Nano to my tank recently.

Does the likely increase in O2 from increased flow have a noticeable part to play in why increased (improved with luck!) circulation is a benefit?  I would assume that the answer is yes.


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## Anonymous (8 Jan 2011)

Thank you for taking time to write us Tom, I really appreciate it. A couple of my friends have sumps on high tech aquariums and have great results with them, unfortunately I don't have space for one and I've wanted to know, taking in consideration the fact I need to seal the wet/dry area and that I want to replace my jbl canister filter in the future, if I could achieve similar results using a wet/dry Eheim canister filter

Anyway because I have an O2 test kit I'll make some tests during the photoperiod and after and post the results.

Cheers,
Mike


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## foxfish (8 Jan 2011)

I run a sump but, I dont make any effort to seal in the gas.
I probably loose more gas going down the overflow than anywhere else however I dont use much gas anyway!
My 150l tank & 50l sump operates very well on two - three bps.


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## dw1305 (10 Jan 2011)

Hi all, 





> I tested canisters vs wet/dry filters and frankly........they kick the living snot out of the canisters.
> In terms of CO2 and in terms of O2, wet/drys cannot be beat.


 I agree with Tom as well, wet and dry trickle filters are very good for gas exchange, which also increases their biological filtration potential. 

With apologies for the cross-post, but there are some more details of why they are so effective here: <http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829>.

cheers Darrel


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## Anonymous (14 Jan 2011)

So I've made an O2 test with 20x (net) / ~15x (real) turnover, canister cleaned, water surface movement minimal and the O2 levels were between 8ppm and 10ppm unfortunately using this turnover most of the CO2 gassed out (PH remained around 7.5 24h) so I've cut down the flow to ~7.5x real and the PH dropped down to 7 (checked after the lights went out) and 6.5 (checked in the morning) CO2 added 24/24. 

I'll run another O2 test with this turnover and I'll come back with the results.


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## dw1305 (15 Jan 2011)

Hi all,


> So I've made an O2 test with 20x (net) / ~15x (real) turnover, canister cleaned, water surface movement minimal and the O2 levels were between 8ppm and 10ppm unfortunately using this turnover most of the CO2 gassed out (PH remained around 7.5 24h) so I've cut down the flow to ~7.5x real and the PH dropped down to 7 (checked after the lights went out) and 6.5 (checked in the morning) CO2 added 24/24.


 This is interesting, my suspicion would be that the O2 levels will be fairly similar  in both cases.

Can you give some details about the tank, particularly what was the initial dkH of the tank water?  the bioload would be interesting as well, I assume there are no livestock present? so in this case how heavily planted is the tank?

cheers Darrel


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## Anonymous (17 Jan 2011)

I guess a picture is better, my 4x24w t5 100l tank:






The dKH is around 6-7, dGH 8-9 (used to have over 15 last year before using RO mineralized water), the bioload from fish is rather low (around 20 little guys in there) most of it is from plants and the peat moss in the substrate that's getting me nuts when I pull the plants (an experiment of mine, the last one )

Well things are going ok, still have algae but plants are growing like there's no tomorrow. Found out that I need to dose around Nitrogen 20ppm at least using this light level (some plants sopped growing at 10ppm - lindernia variegated is one of them, now it's back on track).

Cheers,
Mike


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