# Not dosing EI



## Aqua360 (25 Feb 2016)

So I've been doing a bit of reading on fertilizers recently, and am very aware of the popularity of the EI method.

I have a couple of concerns though, that stem from my stocklist of cherry shrimp and minnows/tetras, as follows:

1) With shrimp being especially sensitive to copper, the trace elements; though quite necessary for optimal plant growth and health, worry me in the same tank as the shrimp.

2) With the high volume of nitrates being dosed weekly, and their corresponding large water change at the end of the week. I can understand the logic, i.e. bomb the plants with more than enough nutrients so that their growth is maximised, however I'd have thought a nitrate ppm of around 10 would suffice both plants and fish no? Since the plants will still have nitrate available? Thus water changes would likely become lower? I'm not a big fan of changing more than 30% a week, not through laziness; more to avoid shocking tank inhabitants.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too daft, I'm still very much learning here. Right now, my plan would be to stock up on dry ferts including potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate, magnesium sulphate, potassium sulphate; some calcium and iron alongside some liquid carbon. I'll also purchase trace chelates, but again the copper content would have me dosing sparingly.

So I guess what I'm really probing for here are thoughts on this, whether I can dose the above in a manner that will be safe for both shrimp and fish; in the full knowledge that it may yield slower growth...I don't currently have any advanced type of plants on my wishlist so far, if that helps.

Looking at the dry ferts, it recommends mixing a 500ml solution; does anyone do this and how do they store it? for how long? Assuming the solutions "go bad" after around a month, i guess the simple solution is to mix a couple of weeks worth at a time only?

Thanks all


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## ian_m (25 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> Looking at the dry ferts, it recommends mixing a 500ml solution; does anyone do this and how do they store it? for how long? Assuming the solutions "go bad" after around a month, i guess the simple solution is to mix a couple of weeks worth at a time only?


The macro solution will last for ever as it is only inorganic salts.

However the micro solution is degraded (unchelates) by light, thus must be kept in the dark. Generally the micro will not go mouldy as can contain additives (potassium sorbate) to act as a preservative.

Where mouldiness does occur is if you make an all in one solution (macro and micro) which will go mouldy and un chelate unless you add preservative and lower the pH.


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## tekopikin (25 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> The macro solution will last for ever as it is only inorganic salts.
> 
> However the micro solution is degraded (unchelates) by light, thus must be kept in the dark. Generally the micro will not go mouldy as can contain additives (potassium sorbate) to act as a preservative.
> 
> Where mouldiness does occur is if you make an all in one solution (macro and micro) which will go mouldy and un chelate unless you add preservative and lower the pH.


Could the micro also be stored in a fridge?


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## EdwinK (25 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> So I've been doing a bit of reading on fertilizers recently, and am very aware of the popularity of the EI method.
> 
> I have a couple of concerns though, that stem from my stocklist of cherry shrimp and minnows/tetras, as follows:
> 
> ...



1. The amount of copper in micro traces is almost untraceable so you should not worry;
2. The amount of NO3 from outer sources depends on lots of things: substrate, livestock, feeding regime, plant mass etc. In one case plants can do well with no NO3 added and in the other even 40 ppm can be low. So 10 ppm a week is a good start point and will give you some ideas to increase or decrease the dosage over time. Water changes not only removes extra nutrients but organic waste from plants and fish. If  you are so afraid for your inhabitants you can do two 30 percent changes twice a week although it might not be necessary.


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## ian_m (25 Feb 2016)

tekopikin said:


> Could the micro also be stored in a fridge?


No point. Just keep it away from light will be fine. If pH stays low the micro will stay chelated and all will be fine. I have mixed up litres worth in advance to be used months later and not seen any issue.


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## Aqua360 (25 Feb 2016)

EdwinK said:


> 1. The amount of copper in micro traces is almost untraceable so you should not worry;
> 2. The amount of NO3 from outer sources depends on lots of things: substrate, livestock, feeding regime, plant mass etc. In one case plants can do well with no NO3 added and in the other even 40 ppm can be low. So 10 ppm a week is a good start point and will give you some ideas to increase or decrease the dosage over time. Water changes not only removes extra nutrients but organic waste from plants and fish. If  you are so afraid for your inhabitants you can do two 30 percent changes twice a week although it might not be necessary.



I've read that levels of 0.001% are present in usual micro ferts, which i guess i'm overreacting at...I wonder if the copper acts the same as nitrate creeps, i.e. a standard weekly dose amounting to 0.007%, 4 weeks without water changes would amount to 0.028 (assuming plants dont uptake). With 50% water changes, this will still creep over time, albeit a very long time. In which case a possible answer would be a very large water change at irregular periods throughout the year?

Given that i'm taking the liquid carbon route to start off, I think i'll get TNC complete at the same time; which should last me a long time on 60 litres. Still not ruling out the dry fert option, but I'll try the liquids first; its basically going to cost me £20 for a full year of carbon and ferts so i'm not worried about cost at this point.


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## parotet (25 Feb 2016)

Hi all

EI dosing is sure for your shrimps and fish... there are thousand of EI users around the world that successfully grow plants and breed both shrimps and fish. As mentioned by other posters, I would be more worried by other things (fish stock, tank husbandry, good balance between light/CO2/ferts, good flow, biological filtration, high plant biomass, etc.). Actually I found over the last years that liquid carbon you will be using can have a much relevant impact on my shrimp colony (if overdosed) than ferts.

I produce most of my fert solutions using dry salts, it is much cheaper. I only struggle to find the Fe chelates I want but, as I only have small tanks and the amount used is very low, I don't mind buyign sometimes the micro solutions. You may receive a different advice but I would stick with DIY ferts, but at least at the beginning not necessarily with the EI approach. Try smaller doses and fine tune it to your needs. I found for all my tanks that they could do very well with a much smaller amount than the "EI standard recommended dose"... and personally I don't want crazy growth and too many nutrients in the water column (but that's me )

Jordi


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## ian_m (25 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> With 50% water changes, this will still creep over time, albeit a very long time. In which case a possible answer would be a very large water change at irregular periods throughout the year?


No it doesn't. A common misconception that the dose left in the water keeps on getting higher. Simple maths shows that it can never get higher than triple your initial dose if dosing three time in a row.

For example dosing 10ppm of salt and dosing for 3 days then water change every 4th day (keep it simple), shows residual never rises above 30ppm (after infinite number of days). This is also assuming plants don't use any of the salt, which is highly unlikely.
Day 1 - 10ppm
Day 2 - 20ppm
Day 3 - 30ppm
Day 4 - 15ppm (water change)
Day 5 - 25ppm
Day 6 - 35ppm
Day 7 - 45ppm
Day 8 - 22.5ppm (water change)
Day 9 - 32.5ppm
Day 10 - 42.5ppm
Day 11 - 53.5ppm
Day 12 - 26.75ppm (water change)
Day 13 - 36.75ppm
Day 14 - 46.75ppm
Day 15 - 56.75ppm
Day 16 - 28.375ppm (water change).


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## Aqua360 (25 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> No it doesn't. A common misconception that the dose left in the water keeps on getting higher. Simple maths shows that it can never get higher than triple your initial dose if dosing three time in a row.
> 
> For example dosing 10ppm of salt and dosing for 3 days then water change every 4th day (keep it simple), shows residual never rises above 30ppm (after infinite number of days). This is also assuming plants don't use any of the salt, which is highly unlikely.
> Day 1 - 10ppm
> ...



maths isn't my strong point  on the same vein though, would the upper limit for copper ever reach an  upper ceiling stage then that is dangerous for shrimp? I don't have a specified number for it, I've heard 0.025% are dangerous


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## ian_m (25 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> on the same vein though, would the upper limit for copper ever reach an upper ceiling stage then that is dangerous for shrimp?


Doubt it. Many people here dose EI and keep shrimp no problem. Biggest shrimp death problem people encounter is plants being washed in copper sulphate, to kill snails, can still be deadly to shrimps even after being sat in the shops display tanks for quite a while. So be very careful where you get your plants from.


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## Aqua360 (25 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> Doubt it. Many people here dose EI and keep shrimp no problem. Biggest shrimp death problem people encounter is plants being washed in copper sulphate, to kill snails, can still be deadly to shrimps even after being sat in the shops display tanks for quite a while. So be very careful where you get your plants from.



I've learned that one all too well recently!


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## Manuel Arias (25 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> Biggest shrimp death problem people encounter is plants being washed in copper sulphate





parotet said:


> Actually I found over the last years that liquid carbon you will be using can have a much relevant impact on my shrimp colony (if overdosed) than ferts



Shrimps are very sensitive to Copper and also Glutaraldehyde. The former one comes from microelements (but rarely toxic unless you really overdose them) and, as said by Ian, from anti-algae treatment. CuSO4 is commonly used as algae killer in aquatic plant farms, so it is good practise to wash well the plants before introduce them in the tank if you are keeping inverts. The story of the glutaraldehyde is different. Meanwhile is a complementary source of carbon for the plants, it is a substance really toxic for life as interferers in the breathing at molecular level, blocking this basic function of the mitochondria. Keeping at low concentrations does not have much impact in the inverts, but if you exceed at any rate the recommended dosing, then you can face some mortality. The mortality will be usually bigger in larvae and eggs than in adults. But using the expected dosis you should do it right.

Apart from those, thiosulphates are also very toxic for shrimps. These components are the ones in all the dechlorinators, so be again careful with its dosing if you are using tap water. RO water usually is better for shrimps but if not, make sure you add the right amount, which not always is easy due to concentration of the product. E.g. Seachem Prime is really concentrated, so no good for small tanks with shrimps as it is almost impossible to add just the right amount.

And about the method, my personal opinion is that EI is a risky method and unnecessary. It is true many people succeed with it, but almost the same amount failed. In addition, I think is totally unnatural changing the water every 4 days. The only method recommending that is EI, and because it is a gunshot approach in which without looking for an understanding of the closed ecosystem of the tank, we just overdose to ensure the plants have what they need. And before people jumps over my back for telling this (yes, I am a dissident of EI), it is just my personal opinion, probably driven by the fact I am scientist and I do not like the game of black boxes (and EI is one). I recognise, however, that brings less headaches at start if you get it right. But the difficult is getting it right, because the method is very sensible to CO2 and light levels...and unfortunately, each tank requires different ones. Even Tom Barr himself expressed what I am saying here a few years ago (http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ei-daily-methods-or-pmdd-po4.915/), and it has been so much flexible that nowadays the EI implmeneted by many folks does not preserve at all the Redfield index in which the original EI is based.

Anyway, back to the topic, whatever the approach you select, the right thing is to ensure you balance well light and CO2 and ensuring there is no lack of nutrients. If you use EI, water change routine every 4 days. With other methods, you could change that for 7 or even 10 days, but then you need to get a better control of what happens in the tank.

Cheers,

Manuel


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## xim (26 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> I've read that levels of 0.001% are present in usual micro ferts, which i guess i'm overreacting at...I wonder if the copper acts the same as nitrate creeps, i.e. a standard weekly dose amounting to 0.007%, 4 weeks without water changes would amount to 0.028 (assuming plants dont uptake). With 50% water changes, this will still creep over time, albeit a very long time. In which case a possible answer would be a very large water change at irregular periods throughout the year?...



In short, no. The accumulation has a peak and will not exceed that.

If you dose 1 PPM of something and change 50% of water every week, 
the accumulation of that thing will be never reach 2x of the amount you dose each week, 
i.e., 1 PPM x 7 days x 2 = 14 PPM. It will never really reach 14 PPM. 

The funny thing is yes, the number will increase but never reach 14. 
Because it is only the number behind the decimal point that get increased 
and it will be just longer and longer.

A very useful calculator for this is http://rotalabutterfly.com/accumulation.php

Here is the accumulation after 200 days, the peak is 13.999999947846 PPM.
It's not that frightening.


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## xim (26 Feb 2016)

tekopikin said:


> Could the micro also be stored in a fridge?



Yes. When I didn't use preservatives, it would get mouldy after a while. So I stored it in the fridge.
People do this all the time.


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## Aqua360 (26 Feb 2016)

Great responses here guys, thanks a bunch 

I feel reassured about dosing etc, I'm just going to have to be super super careful with my measurements


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> I'm just going to have to be super super careful with my measurements


Or dilute things like dechlorinator as 10ml dechlorinator to 90ml RO/distilled water and dose via a syringe as an easy to measure 10ml rather then a hideously difficult 1ml. Repeat with macros, but be careful with micro as diluting can/will dilute any anti-mould agent and allow it to go mouldy. Some people add potassium sorbate (preservative, 0.2gr per 500ml) and ascorbic acid (pH lowerer, 0.5gr per 500ml) to stop their micros going mouldy.


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## Aqua360 (26 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> Or dilute things like dechlorinator as 10ml dechlorinator to 90ml RO/distilled water and dose via a syringe as an easy to measure 10ml rather then a hideously difficult 1ml. Repeat with macros, but be careful with micro as diluting can/will dilute any anti-mould agent and allow it to go mouldy. Some people add potassium sorbate (preservative, 0.2gr per 500ml) and ascorbic acid (pH lowerer, 0.5gr per 500ml) to stop their micros going mouldy.



I've never used RO water...some new reading for me it seems!


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2016)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis

http://www.osmotics.co.uk/

Advantage is 100% known water quality for fish keeping, but for every 1litre of RO water produce maybe 5 litres or more will be wasted, so quite expensive if on a water meter.


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## Manuel Arias (26 Feb 2016)

Well... http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Copper
So, essentially, 0.03 ppm of Cu is enough to kill shrimps, I am afraid, if we trust the source. I have been looking for some works about toxicity. So far, I just found one study related to _Penaus japonicus _which is probably much less sensitive than freshwater shrimps: http://www.vliz.be/imisdocs/publications/33443.pdf

Main conclusion is that a concentration of 4 ppm is enough to kill 50% of those shrimps in 96 hours. And even less copper if you mix it in the same medium with other toxic metals (which is expected).

Nevertheless, I also doubt micro fertilizers will cause any problem. Note that the concentration of copper in micro ferts is a % in weight. If the ferts are dry, then this % will be reduced by the dilution into the bottle, plus also the dilution in the tank, so probably you are in the order of 0.001 ppms, or so. If you provide the data from the ferts and the dosing you plan, as well as the volume of the tank, I can help you with the maths. 

Cheers,

Manuel


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2016)

http://www.aquariumplantfood.co.uk/fertilisers/dry-chemicals/dry-salts/chelated-trace-180.html

Gives chelated copper at 0.23% by weight.

The above is repackaged Solufeed product.
http://uk.solufeed.com/products/chelates/solufeed-tec
The PDF states 300g of product in 100litres of water gives Cu ppm of 7, so you can work out your tank ppm from this.


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## Aqua360 (26 Feb 2016)

Manuel Arias said:


> Well... http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Copper
> So, essentially, 0.03 ppm of Cu is enough to kill shrimps, I am afraid, if we trust the source. I have been looking for some works about toxicity. So far, I just found one study related to _Penaus japonicus _which is probably much less sensitive than freshwater shrimps: http://www.vliz.be/imisdocs/publications/33443.pdf
> 
> Main conclusion is that a concentration of 4 ppm is enough to kill 50% of those shrimps in 96 hours. And even less copper if you mix it in the same medium with other toxic metals (which is expected).
> ...



I've steered away from the dry ferts, bought some TNC complete liquid


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> I've steered away from the dry ferts, bought some TNC complete liquid


As this is mostly likely Solufeed TEC (and macro) dissolved in water, judging by the micro ratios, you have just bought £9 worth of water. Nice.


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## EdwinK (26 Feb 2016)

Somebody has to make a living somehow... especially if there is someone who are willing to give away money just for calculating ppm's for you


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## Aqua360 (26 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> As this is mostly likely Solufeed TEC (and macro) dissolved in water, judging by the micro ratios, you have just bought £9 worth of water. Nice.



Hmm. Given that I'm pretty new to the fert game, and realise it may not be the optimal way of dosing; is there really need for condescension?

I figure this will provide a good base for me to start working with, and at £9 it might be a waste, but isn't going to break my bank.


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## Aqua360 (26 Feb 2016)

EdwinK said:


> Somebody has to make a living somehow... especially if there is someone who are willing to give away money just for calculating ppm's for you



As a beginner, that person is me; thank you for the input


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## Manuel Arias (26 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> I figure this will provide a good base for me to start working with, and at £9 it might be a waste, but isn't going to break my bank.



More costly would be is to screw up with the amounts and crash your tank because of that, so no fault by considering pre-diluted fertilizers, in my point of view, until you feel OK using dry ferts and with your fertilizing programme, instead.


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## ian_m (26 Feb 2016)

Aqua360 said:


> is there really need for condescension?


Sorry.  Just pointing out that there are ways of achieving exactly the same at much reduced cost.

Pre-mixed is fine for teeny tanks and non EI dosing on larger tanks, but when you get larger and require full EI dosing works out expensive.

TNC is £9 per 500ml, say for 200l tank and 20ml dose 3 times a week is 8 weeks for £9 -> so £1 a week.

Dry micro is £12 for 500g, mixing 12g into 1000ml gives 42 litres worth, dosing 40ml for 200 litre tank lasts 350 weeks for £12 -> 34p per week.


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## Aqua360 (26 Feb 2016)

ian_m said:


> Sorry.  Just pointing out that there are ways of achieving exactly the same at much reduced cost.
> 
> Pre-mixed is fine for teeny tanks and non EI dosing on larger tanks, but when you get larger and require full EI dosing works out expensive.
> 
> ...



It's all good  right now i'm working with the smaller 60 litre, I think the dry ferts are definitely my next port of call as I learn more on here and from reading...


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