# My Juwel LED Lumen Count



## SolarPear

Hey Guys

I bought a Juwel Rio 450 which hopefully will be delivered by next weekend. The light unit is a multilux led with a lumen count of just over 7K which puts me in a low light spectrum. 

I'm searching for an alternative setup including different LED bulbs or a entire unit which allow me to keep the juwel hood in tact. Please advise.


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## alto

Note that the included Multilux LED includes 2 x 31watt “tubes” so you can double that lumen value

You might confirm with Juwel Aquarium but should be able to upgrade to the HeliaLux LED or possibly add a 2nd Multilux unit 

A quick YouTube search brought this rather nicely done tank up


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## SolarPear

Hi Alto

The Rio 450 ships with one Multilux Led. Each tube is 3565 Lumen with a total of 7130 Lumens. 

The Helialux has even less Lumen at 6750 lumens.

My options are 15.8 Lumens per liter. with the MultiLux. Or 15 Lumens per liter using the Helialux. Ideally I'd like to hit between 30 lumens and be a medium light tank.But the problem is I need a compatible unit that allows me to use the flaps that ship with the juwel unit.


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## ian_m

https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/
I think the 120cm Iquatics 4 T5 tube unit will fit the Rio450 (I think) giving 12,000 lumens for 4 off 3000 lumen T5 tubes.


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## SolarPear

Hey Ian_M

That was one of the first sites I looked at but I can't get the site to work properly. It's definitely an option. However, if I'm going to get a new unit I'd like to be able to control the unit via a controller. I found the interpet which seems to have a bit more in spectrum but the lumen count is difficult to find.
http://www.interpet.co.uk/Products/Lighting/LEDs/Tri-Spec-High-Output-LED-116-124cm

It's quite daunting in all honesty so I appreciate your advice and help here.


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## ian_m

I would be very careful about changing lights without knowing their lumens and/or having a way of dimming them. The majority of the issues we see on this board are related to far far too much supplied light for CO2 levels people are using.

You will probably be best to work with the lights supplied (and any dimming solution) until you get proficient in getting CO2 levels and flow sorted before increasing the light.

The AquaAtlantis are high quality LED's fixtures that fit in T5 fittings, I suspect the 1200mm one will fit in the Rio 450 no problem. The 1200mm is 5400 lumen about 1 1/2 times a T5 tube. A controller is also available to keep light under control.
https://www.allpondsolutions.co.uk/aquarium/lighting/aquatlantis-led/universal-lighting-freshwater/


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## SolarPear

I appreciate the assistance Ian.

I'll be using a Fluval FX filter and pressurized CO2 so I'll be able to adjust CO2 levels to keep up. I have to admit that I'm unsure if in the link you provided, I'm look at bulbs or an entire unit. If they are bulbs, with 2 of them I'd be at 24 Lumens which is exactly in the range I want to be for a medium light tank. However if it's a replacement unit it works out to less. I apologize in advance for my confusion here.


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## ian_m

SolarPear said:


> I'll be using a Fluval FX filter


Which one. As you are using CO2, and thus moved into "high tech" area of fishkeeping, you will be looking at total filtration of at least 4500litres/hour (the x10 rule of thumb). Thus even with a single FX6 you will not reach this. See Zeus's 500litre tank about how he had to add more filtration as a single FX6 is certainly not enough. Also the FX6 (and other big filters) use "non standard" pipe size, normally 25mm. Again see Zeus's tank for how to connection standard 16/22 equipment and yet not hinder the flow. There is no point spending a fortune on a super wonderful pump and limiting by putting 16/22mm fittings in the outlet.

Below is the link to manufacturers website.
https://www.aquatlantis.com/en/products/freshwater-1.html
This simply plug into your lights existing T5 tube holders. Power is via a +12V lead, the T5 connectors simple act as a holder. Two of these will give over 10,000 lumens....These are not cheap but if you want high light in a large volume and deep tank, you will need a matching wallet...yes large and deep. Again Zeus's lights were not cheap (Kessils) but certainly pushed enough light to the bottom of the tank. He also controller their brightness via a PLC controller to keep lighting under control.


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## SolarPear

Thanks a bunch Ian. That's problem solved for me (if they indeed do fit) when it comes to the led lumen count. 

As for the turnover, I thought 5X would be enough with the Fluval FX6. I've never used this filter before so I might have to start out with 5X turnover and adjust if necessary. Finding a filter that's large enough and fits under the aquarium was more so the goal. Could you please post a link to Zeus's 500 Liter so that I may do some additional reading as per your recommendation.


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## ian_m

Not meeting the 5X requirement when using CO2 and high tech tank is not a good start, a major cause of new plant keepers failing at high tech tanks. I have x11 filter turn over in my 180litre tank supplemented by a 3200l/hr powerhead.

Zeus spent  effort, design, plumbing and money, ensuring at least x10 filtration rate from day one and was paid off with a algae free tank with happy plants. I am sure he is planning to increase the turnover rate when the new Maxspect Gyres come out in September. He has probably been one of the most successful large tank keepers simply because he did it right from day one.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/olympus-is-calling.43046/

The x10 is to allow for say 50% loss when the filter is filled with media, maybe even more when filter media is dirty. Some filters drop to as low as 25% flow rated when media is dirty.

Of course you can be just lucky and get away with less, as some people have managed.

You can of course supplement with power heads to try and meet the x10 rule.

As you have a large tank, you might want to consider Gyres.
http://www.maxspect.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=227&Itemid=750&lang=en

If you tank is not high tech, high light and high CO2 you can probably get away with less filtration.


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## SolarPear

From my understanding per liter

10- 20 Lumens = Low light
20 - 40 Lumens = Medium Light
40 + Lumens = High light.

With the unit you suggested I'll be at 24 Lumens Per liter so just on the other side of Medium. Perhaps a little more when I add reflectors. I'm not opposed to adding more circulation at all. It's definitely something I'm going to keep an eye on. It's just I've done tanks that were closer to 3X turn over and I've done ok. But I'm here to get the best advice possible so I appreciate it all.

I was mistakenly under the impression that 5 - 10X turnover was the ideal.

*Edit* Adjusting the photo period to match the flow and fert dosing could help alleviate any issues, right?


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## ian_m

SolarPear said:


> I was mistakenly under the impression that 5 - 10X turnover was the ideal


X10 turnover per hour if you are high tech, high CO2, high light & high ferts. You can get away with less, if you use some of the more expensive named brand filters that do appear to lose less flow when dirty or don't fill all the media baskets and most importantly don't use too much light.

I would ignore the Lumens per litre as your tank is deep, compared to most tanks. Following numbers "OCD'ingly" leads to trouble, especially when you use it as a short cut !!!!

Below is the commonly used graph, based on actual measurements T5 tube PAR (photosynthetic active radiation) values vs depth.






You are LED, so need to convert you LED lumens to T5 equivalent lumens.

An equivalent 150cm T5 HO 6500K is 5700 lumens.
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/linear-fluorescent-tubes/7926937/ 

Your mulitlux is 3300 Lumens thus is 5700/3300 -> 0.6 T5 tubes, call it half as we are only approximately doing things....

Rio 450 is 66cm deep = 26".

Thus you have equivalent of 1 T5 tube (two multilux) at 26 inches, reading from the graph is say 40PAR, smack bang definitely in the low light region. That is good news if you are a beginner first setting up, which is why Juwel supply these lights. Most tanks with single T5 are low light area, even more in your case @ 26 inches depth.

Thus with low light you get away with poorer CO2 flow and distribution (if using), low levels of fertiliser and maybe even relying on rotting fish poo & food to provide nutrient and carbon source, and lower filtration rates. When things start going wrong with low light tanks, you will have days and days notice of issues, algae appears slowly, plants die slowly, weekly large water changes are not required, filter cleaned less often everything is at a much slowly weekly/monthly timescale. High tech things go wrong quickly, in days, high maintenance, weekly water changes and a lot more work.

The main downside of low light is plants grow slowly, tank can look dim and many "pretty" & carpeting plants require copious CO2 and light so no good on single T5 tube equivalent.


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## ceg4048

SolarPear said:


> From my understanding per liter
> 
> 10- 20 Lumens = Low light
> 20 - 40 Lumens = Medium Light
> 40 + Lumens = High light.




Hello,
         Further to Ians explanation, it's important to note that Lumens have nothing to do with the way plants use light energy. Lumens is a measure of the apparent brightness of light sources detected by the human optic nerve. Furthermore, Lumens per "volume unit" is an even less useful.
This is not to say that a particular Lumen value cannot be converted to a more useful measurement. In order to accomplish that, the appropriate conversion factors must be known.

The unit of measure relevant to plants is Photosynthetically Active Radiation, commonly know as PAR.

The chart shown by Ian in post #12 shows the incident PAR energy striking a leaf at specific distances from the light source. The color bands define the zones whose distance from the light determine the consequences of the PAR energy within the zone.

The blue zone is lowest risk of algal blooms but also the lowest growth rates.

The chart does not include values for LED and there are many LEDs which differ greatly in their performance.

It is very doubtful that one cannot grow plants with the lights that ship with the tank and it is advised that if one lacks the experience, then the hobbyist should proceed using those OEM lights instead of replacing them with brighter lights.

Cheers,


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## SolarPear

Hi ceg4048. Thanks again Ian,

I'm not exactly a beginner. I've learned the hobby over the past 9 years and when I got to my new address, my main thought (although the wife didn't realize at the time) was what size tank I can get into my living room. These are the afflictions that only those that love this hobby can understand lol. Although tiny in comparison to some of the tanks I've seen online and in person a 450L juwel was the biggest I could get. I understand EI dosing but have always used pre-mixed commercial products. I can spot mistakes and even when I have had algae in the past, I understand the path to eliminating it.

So I have some experience. I stress "some" as Ian pointed out that a long held belief of mine was flawed in terms of volume and turnover. I've never wanted a high light tank because I understand that it's harder to adjust/test and re-balance the tank should you see something going wrong. Although it's clear my dreams of a 450L tank got ahead of me. I think I'm ready to have slightly higher light than would have been with the standard lighting unit. 

But I truly appreciate the help and advice given here. And also appreciate that there is a ton more to learn.

The following is off topic and a slightly convoluted metaphor... But since this is a UK forum... Those buying property/selling houses tv shows that air all too frequently. I find those painful to watch because often, the expert gives advice but the homeowner is too stuck in his or her ways to heed said advice. and fall short of their full potential. In this instance, I'm not that guy lol.

I'll be keeping a keen eye on flow related issues and if there is an imbalance that I can attribute to flow I know exactly the course of action needed. I was just more concerned with my (general rule of thumb) Lumen count.


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## ian_m

So in summary,

Nothing wrong with the Juwel 450 as supplied, 1000litre/hour built in filter, lights well and truly in the low & plant safer end of light intensity (PAR). A great safe start for fish and plant keeping.

I ran my Vision 180 for years with the internal 600l/hr filter & 2 x T8 tubes. Didn't have much success with plants (plastic plants did appear to do OK though ) as I didn't know what I know now. One issue with the internal filters, possibly as they are not that powerful for tank size and also stuck in one corner, is that I used to get quite large detritus (fish poo !!!) deposits in certain places in the tank, as there was obviously no flow in those areas. An air pump with "bubble wall" across the back of the tank helped considerably, obviously preventing the detritus settling and allowing it to be filtered away. I also tried making a spray bar across the back of the tank, connected to the Juwel internal filter outlet, prototyped out of PVC pipe, but the Juwel filter pump was clearly not powerful enough to produce any decent flow/circulation.

Again look at Zeus's tank for how to do high tech in 500litres. Not simple and cheap, but I feel he managed it.
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/olympus-is-calling.43046/

You next step up would be better filtration, problem is with such a big tank it is not easy, especially as one of the tank "inlet cutouts" is blocked by the internal filter, if you keep the internal filter. If going high tech you are looking at, at least 4500litres/hour filtration rate, not cheap and not easy to do within the confines of the Rio 450. Even two times JBL1900 giving 3800 litre/hour is not really enough, plus you will have all the faffing around fitting 16/22mm CO2 injectors etc in 19/27mm piping. Two times Fluval FX4 would do it (2650l/hr), again watch the pipe sizes, you would have to make your own spray bars from PVC pipe as well (see Zeus). The FX4 is huge, check they will fit in the cabinet.

Lighting is the next issue, especially if you want to keep the Rio450 hood. Using Juwel 150cm T5 fluorescent units, with reflectors, will double your light output. There even might be an iQuatics 4 tube unit that fits the Rio 450 giving 4 times. Beyond that there is the Aquatlantis T5 LED units and beyond that you are looking at DIY'ing more powerful lights into the hood (Kessils ?).

You need also to think of maintenance, can I easily reach down 65cm ?, how am I going to add 225litres of dechlorinated (warmed ?) water ? Does not Zeus have a mixer shower valve located near his tank ? What are you going to do with the waste water ? I water my front lawn with mine.

So lots to think about...in moving a big tank beyond what the manufacturer supplies.


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## Zeus.

Thanks for the kind words about my tank Ian , the sucesss isn't all mine but the success of all the posts,treads and helpful input of many people direct and indirect 

If I was doing it again I would do it not at deep, having a carpet 50cm below water is tricky getting CO2 to the carpet and enough light, never mind the manitance esp with hooded/braced tank. 40cm would be plenty deep enough for carpet IMO.

As for flow being King in a high tech tank I do feel the X10 rule has its limitions in the bigger tanks and the scaper would be better of with x20, each time my tank has suffered melting leaves it was due to plants filling in and reducing flow. Think the Grye's a plan to get will resolve that. Plus with better flow I believe I will be able to run the tank at a lower [CO2] as the better/faster flow will deliver the plants CO2 needs at this lower [CO2], which will inturn will decrease  the CO2 used even with increased surface aggitation, well that's my thinking ATM

Turning point for me was the maths and CO2 diffusion rates in air and water.

Air- time to travel length of tank about 2seconds.
Water-time to travel same tank 10 Days 
10,000 times slower


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## Millns84

I bought a Juwel Rio 450 a couple of months back.

The first thing I did was cut out the huge internal filter and rig up two Sunsun 704b canisters (2000lph each).

I'm considering an upgrade to the new Helialux Spectrum when it's released in the autumn but as far as I'm aware, there's no data currently available on its specs so if it's the same as the current Helialux, I might just stick to the Multilux units.


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## SolarPear

ian_m said:


> So in summary,
> 
> Nothing wrong with the Juwel 450 as supplied, 1000litre/hour built in filter, lights well and truly in the low & plant safer end of light intensity (PAR). A great safe start for fish and plant keeping.
> 
> I ran my Vision 180 for years with the internal 600l/hr filter & 2 x T8 tubes. Didn't have much success with plants (plastic plants did appear to do OK though ) as I didn't know what I know now. One issue with the internal filters, possibly as they are not that powerful for tank size and also stuck in one corner, is that I used to get quite large detritus (fish poo !!!) deposits in certain places in the tank, as there was obviously no flow in those areas. An air pump with "bubble wall" across the back of the tank helped considerably, obviously preventing the detritus settling and allowing it to be filtered away. I also tried making a spray bar across the back of the tank, connected to the Juwel internal filter outlet, prototyped out of PVC pipe, but the Juwel filter pump was clearly not powerful enough to produce any decent flow/circulation.
> 
> Again look at Zeus's tank for how to do high tech in 500litres. Not simple and cheap, but I feel he managed it.
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/olympus-is-calling.43046/
> 
> You next step up would be better filtration, problem is with such a big tank it is not easy, especially as one of the tank "inlet cutouts" is blocked by the internal filter, if you keep the internal filter. If going high tech you are looking at, at least 4500litres/hour filtration rate, not cheap and not easy to do within the confines of the Rio 450. Even two times JBL1900 giving 3800 litre/hour is not really enough, plus you will have all the faffing around fitting 16/22mm CO2 injectors etc in 19/27mm piping. Two times Fluval FX4 would do it (2650l/hr), again watch the pipe sizes, you would have to make your own spray bars from PVC pipe as well (see Zeus). The FX4 is huge, check they will fit in the cabinet.
> 
> Lighting is the next issue, especially if you want to keep the Rio450 hood. Using Juwel 150cm T5 fluorescent units, with reflectors, will double your light output. There even might be an iQuatics 4 tube unit that fits the Rio 450 giving 4 times. Beyond that there is the Aquatlantis T5 LED units and beyond that you are looking at DIY'ing more powerful lights into the hood (Kessils ?).
> 
> You need also to think of maintenance, can I easily reach down 65cm ?, how am I going to add 225litres of dechlorinated (warmed ?) water ? Does not Zeus have a mixer shower valve located near his tank ? What are you going to do with the waste water ? I water my front lawn with mine.
> 
> So lots to think about...in moving a big tank beyond what the manufacturer supplies.



I'm on page three of Zeus's journal and it's interesting stuff. Far more ambitious than I hope to be.

The Fluval FX6 does 3500 LPH of the 4500 I need so I'm considering buying another filter or pump.

I'm pretty set on the Aqualantis led to sort out the generic Lumen count.

I'm not going to keep the internal filter. In my honest opinion they are sub par so I'll add it to my other Juwel tank (After some modifications) which I'll be converting to a shrimp tank.

I'm 6 foot 6 in height so maintenance on the aquarium should be ok. The water change will be via a hose pipe and tap connector for water going in and the Fluval FX series outlet for water going out. I haven't temperature matched water during a water change in many years. I just add cold water which drops the temp from 26C to 20C on a 50% water change. My garden is paved so the waste water will go straight down the Kitchen sink hole.  I also only dechlorinate once the water has been replaced. Adding some of the amount to the far let, middle, and far right and waiting 5 minutes before turning the filter back on. Although I might need to adjust the process for a larger tank.

Not the type of pics this site is used to but baby steps...






Zeus. said:


> Thanks for the kind words about my tank Ian , the sucesss isn't all mine but the success of all the posts,treads and helpful input of many people direct and indirect
> 
> If I was doing it again I would do it not at deep, having a carpet 50cm below water is tricky getting CO2 to the carpet and enough light, never mind the manitance esp with hooded/braced tank. 40cm would be plenty deep enough for carpet IMO.
> 
> As for flow being King in a high tech tank I do feel the X10 rule has its limitions in the bigger tanks and the scaper would be better of with x20, each time my tank has suffered melting leaves it was due to plants filling in and reducing flow. Think the Grye's a plan to get will resolve that. Plus with better flow I believe I will be able to run the tank at a lower [CO2] as the better/faster flow will deliver the plants CO2 needs at this lower [CO2], which will inturn will decrease  the CO2 used even with increased surface aggitation, well that's my thinking ATM
> 
> Turning point for me was the maths and CO2 diffusion rates in air and water.
> 
> Air- time to travel length of tank about 2seconds.
> Water-time to travel same tank 10 Days
> 10,000 times slower



It's an incredible tank and despite the fact that I wasn't even a member I think it's important to say thanks for putting in the effort and recording it so that novices like myself, who have bitten off more than they can chew, can go through it and learn.



Millns84 said:


> I bought a Juwel Rio 450 a couple of months back.
> 
> The first thing I did was cut out the huge internal filter and rig up two Sunsun 704b canisters (2000lph each).
> 
> I'm considering an upgrade to the new Helialux Spectrum when it's released in the autumn but as far as I'm aware, there's no data currently available on its specs so if it's the same as the current Helialux, I might just stick to the Multilux units.



If I may be so bold, could you kindly measure the width of inside of either the left or right cabinet. I know the length and with of the cabinet as a unit but Juwel (even on their PDF file don't give the internal measurement.


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## Barbara Turner

I'll second what everyone else has said.. 
Don't rush to fast to buy a new light, especially while the tank is establish and settling down. There is very little you can't grow with lower light levels if you get your co2 distribution/ flow and ferts right. 
It might just grow a little slower but you will have far fewer problems. 
Upgrade in a few months time when your algae free. 

Ps the juwel Rio light units are bonded together, I tried to upgrade a broken one and it was virtually impossible to get into with out cracking the case / hood.


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## Millns84

SolarPear said:


> If I may be so bold, could you kindly measure the width of inside of either the left or right cabinet. I know the length and with of the cabinet as a unit but Juwel (even on their PDF file don't give the internal measurement.



45cm internal width. It certainly dwarfs my Sunsun 704b's which are huge canisters!


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## SolarPear

Barbara Turner said:


> I'll second what everyone else has said..
> Don't rush to fast to buy a new light, especially while the tank is establish and settling down. There is very little you can't grow with lower light levels if you get your co2 distribution/ flow and ferts right.
> It might just grow a little slower but you will have far fewer problems.
> Upgrade in a few months time when your algae free.
> 
> Ps the juwel Rio light units are bonded together, I tried to upgrade a broken one and it was virtually impossible to get into with out cracking the case / hood.



Thanks Barbra.

I'm expecting some diatom algae and fungus on any wood I drop in there but I don't think I'll be doing anything that could induce algae growth. But I'm a Londoner and our water source is a nightmare on the best of days. Oh and as for ferts, I'll be starting of with a premixed TNC. I'm not sure which one just yet (with or without Phos and Nitrate) because I haven't tested my Phos yet. Nitrates are at 5ppm according to the API test kit. I'll get back into a mixing up my own EI soo enough. 



Millns84 said:


> 45cm internal width. It certainly dwarfs my Sunsun 704b's which are huge canisters!



I really appreciate you measuring the cabinet/stands internal width. That helps a bunch. The FX6's Dimensions (L x W x H): 40 x 40 x 53 cm so I should be "ok."


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## Millns84

SolarPear said:


> I really appreciate you measuring the cabinet/stands internal width. That helps a bunch. The FX6's Dimensions (L x W x H): 40 x 40 x 53 cm so I should be "ok."



Yes the FX6 should definitely fit no problem.

The reason I didn't go with the FX6 was that I wasn't sure whether the larger hoses would fit in the cut outs on the back of the tank. Also, I prefer to use spray bars and you've got to DIY them for the FX6.


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## SolarPear

Millns84 said:


> Yes the FX6 should definitely fit no problem.
> 
> The reason I didn't go with the FX6 was that I_* wasn't sure whether the larger hoses would fit in the cut outs on the back of the tank.*_




Another potential flaw with my setup reveals itself!


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## Millns84

SolarPear said:


> Another potential flaw with my setup reveals itself!



Have you already bought the Fx6? 

If the hoses don't fit you could always cut some small holes in the lid so it can close properly.


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## SolarPear

Millns84 said:


> Have you already bought the Fx6?
> 
> If the hoses don't fit you could always cut some small holes in the lid so it can close properly.



I believe the hose will fit into the cut out but the filter comes with this connector




 
So I'm not exactly sure. I haven't bought the filter yet because I need to be home to collect it and my weekends are busy. I don't fancy lugging it home from work.


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## Millns84

The connector does look quite meaty, but it could fit for all we know.


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## ian_m

Below is the inlet/outlet cutout for a Vision 180 with 16/22mm piping from JBL1501 external filter. As you can see only big enough for this sized piping.




You need to see of the cutouts on the Rio450 are any bigger, especially if you intend to use an FX6.


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## SolarPear

Back to the drawing board 

I thought the replacement led were £90 per tube and although it would have been a stretch I would have bought two just to put my mind at ease and be in the medium light category. However Each tube for my size tank is £230 making the total spend over £460 minimum and I can't afford or justify a spend of £460 on two lights to my wife. At least, not after spending too much just to get to this point.

And so I'm thinking perhaps I can find a way to fit this onto the existing juwel unit.
http://www.interpet.co.uk/Products/Lighting/LEDs/Tri-Spec-High-Output-LED-116-124cm

But they don't have a lumen count just the "50% better than T5HO" marketing jargon. This is how they'd fit.






I'm also considering Arcadia but again, there is no Lumen count with any of the marketing they put out so I'm kinda stuck. My goal was to not be in the low light category, I didn't think it'd be this complex.



ian_m said:


> Below is the inlet/outlet cutout for a Vision 180 with 16/22mm piping from JBL1501 external filter. As you can see only big enough for this sized piping.
> View attachment 116938
> 
> You need to see of the cutouts on the Rio450 are any bigger, especially if you intend to use an FX6.



I believe the 450 can accommodate the FX tubing although I may have to sacrifice the brace posted above and instead, use more suction cups to keep the inlet and spray bar in place


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## Edvet

SolarPear said:


> 50% better than T5HO" marketing jargon


which means NOTHING without PAR data


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## SolarPear

Edvet said:


> which means NOTHING without PAR data



Commercially, most of it is just jargon. Par info seems like a rarity.


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## SolarPear

I have really been struggling to accept the planting parameters of a low light tank. And so I've gone back to a light unit Ian mentioned earlier.



ian_m said:


> https://www.iquaticsonline.co.uk/
> I think the 120cm Iquatics 4 T5 tube unit will fit the Rio450 (I think) giving 12,000 lumens for 4 off 3000 lumen T5 tubes.



Does anyone know if this unit accepts Juwel's led tubes? If not what are the options that could be available outside of iquatics stock lighting options that would put me within the medium light range?


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## zozo

I often wonder how Lumens in LED fixtures are realy determined.. Because if i look at  the whole salers data that provides the strip they only give Lumen data per (led) chip. Or per single LED if it concerns HP leds. But most aqaurium fixtures i've yet seen are SMD led. These excact same strips can be bought as single strip and the wholesaler states the factory data again per chip never per strip total. Say 65 lumen per led. And 1 metre strip contains 72 leds.

Is the total lumen equal to 65 x 72 = 4680 lumen? Does that mean if my fixture contains 2,5 metre total that i have 2,5 x 4680 = 11700 lumen?
I realy have no idea that's all i have..

How does the fixture manufacturer/assambler determine their products end performance?. Do they use the LED factory data per chip and add it all up like above to give us a number. Or do they actualy have a test device to accurately come up with lumen specs? If so than why not come with PAR, than they would come with something usefull. Because an aqaurium light assambler should know by now, that lumen doesnt do much for the fanatic plant nerd, they want to know PAR performance. Than why buy and use a lumen test device and give us data we don't realy want?.

I find that suspicious.. I hunges me towards the thought.. They just give us the added sum per chip, nobody can check it accurately with household equipment anyway.

I've noticed with cob led fixture, the LED used has a factory spec of 10 watts and 900 lumen.. And the fixture with driver in it and all states the same specs. Than i hook it to a measuring device and its performance is 20% less than stated. The driver has a build in rectifier that looses 20% power. Thus the LED is indeed 10 watt, but it uses and delivers only 8 watt. Obviously the assambler selling the fixture didn't test it, puts the led factory specs on the box and ignores the power loss from the driver. Thus it never ever can be 900 lumen at 8 watt consumption. When i bridge the rectifier it burns brighter.. 

We are taken for a ride here..


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## sparkyweasel

I think you're right, Marcel. I imagine they just multiply up to get the most impressive sounding specs to sell more lights to people who are not "fanatic plant nerds". There are more of them than there are of us. 
Yes, the way the individual LEDs are wired, driven, controlled etc makes a difference to the output. Also the way the light from adjacent LEDs interacts, and how it interacts with the fixture.
We know that filters usually give about half the theoretical throughput in real life situations. Similar with LEDs; what an LED produces in the manufacturer's lab does not tell us what will come out of the fixture it is built into by another manufacturer.


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## zozo

sparkyweasel said:


> what an LED produces in the manufacturer's lab does not tell us what will come out of the fixture it is built into by another manufacturer.



Indeed, obviously not.. In case of that cob led they simply gave the factory specs. 10 watt, 900 lumen at AC/DC 12-24 volt.. Than i screwed it open look at the serial searched for the cob only. And it was actualy a 14 volt - 350mA, 10 watt, 900 lumen. Thus in reality they assambled it with even less specs driven at 12 volt with still 20% loss from the rectifier. Because i run it on DC i didn't need the rectifier, so i bridged the driver and ramped the voltage up to 14 and it burned significantly brichter.. 

And the funny thing is you can't say they sold you a lie. It is acording the factory a 10 watt - 900 lumen led but it just doesn't run full power the way they assambled it.


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## Edvet

I still feel there is a market for PAR meters, priced "friendly", by large companies like Dennerle or Eheim. In this way everybody could work with real PAR data, and succes rates would rise and "cow manure " claims would loose ground


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> I still feel there is a market for PAR meters, priced "friendly", by large companies like Dennerle or Eheim. In this way everybody could work with real PAR data, and succes rates would rise and "cow manure " claims would loose ground



Looking at your avatar i guess you are into photography hobby as wel?..
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-par-meter-30-45.932412/


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## Edvet

Yeah i've seen the DIY PAR meters builds.
It's just that i think it could be done commercially, on a larger and cheaper scale, by the big firms.


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## zozo

Edvet said:


> Yeah i've seen the DIY PAR meters builds.
> It's just that i think it could be done commercially, on a larger and cheaper scale, by the big firms.



Than we should all send an email to Dennerle@info and ask all friends and family to do the same.. With the question.. Do you also have a PAR meter in your collection? If so where to buy?.  They might wake up after replying 10.000 emails with " No Sorry we don't." 

Kinda reminds me of that joke about the Rabbit going to the bakery everyday asking for Carrot Cake.. What the baker doesnt make..


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## sparkyweasel

If we had PAR meters, we could buy lights, find out they're not suitable, buy more and try again. If the light manufacturers would simply give the PAR figures instead of the meaningless information and weasel words, we could just buy an appropriate light first time.


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## SolarPear

sparkyweasel said:


> If we had PAR meters, we could buy lights, find out they're not suitable, buy more and try again. If the light manufacturers would simply give the PAR figures instead of the meaningless information and weasel words, we could just buy an appropriate light first time.



A lot of manufacturers put a ton of info out there except the type we need. Navigating this process without such data is a potential minefield in expense.


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## zozo

sparkyweasel said:


> If we had PAR meters, we could buy lights, find out they're not suitable, buy more and try again. If the light manufacturers would simply give the PAR figures instead of the meaningless information and weasel words, we could just buy an appropriate light first time.



Who was it again? Studebaker created his own demise, competed himself from the market with a too durable and succesfull product. At least that's what told by historical automibil connoisseurs . That's what happens when you spoil your fans to much.. Than its said the price competition with GM and Ford was to great. But GM and Ford were qualitatively infirour, but the public didn't mind, they are consumers anyway and go for the looks. 90% want's something new anyway every now and then.

SO if you want to survive, you have to make sure they keep buying.. Days are past which car build after 1986 still runs 25 + years.. Very few, most fall apart after 5 or 10 if not less..


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## SolarPear

Update:

Interpet Tri Spec High Output LED Light 116-124CM

















Not the best pics but I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice. Tech questions incoming but I'm heading to bed in a few.


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## SolarPear

I'm close to being furious!

Well not quite. But it seems the newer design of juwel 450 doesn't have the dip necessary in the brace for the interpret lighting unit to fit. 



 

And so now I'm back to square one


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## noupe

Not sure if this was eventually covered in the thread, but for anyone else reading  it, it is possible to install dual stock lighting from Juwel in the Rio 450 (and other tanks as well) to get double light intensity.

You can simply buy either an additional Multilux LED unit in addition to the one supplied with the tank, or alternatively two new Helialux units (expensive of course) and then use a special three part flap set (art. no. 93990). It will then look like this:


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