# Just started with EI dosing



## aquagenetics (23 Oct 2021)

Hey all,

So on alot of yours advice i started now since recently with EI dosing (1 week), i ordered it from a dutch website, that also gave you a recipe on how to make the 2 ferts (Macro and Micro)
however i tested the water and the parameters seem quite low ? (is this because of my plants uptake ?)
i am using Tropica aquasoil.

on this site they also told me to dose alternatively so Macro 40ml, and then next day micro 60ml, and also 2 rest days (i didnt follow this because water parameters were low.)

- Water parameters - (Yes i know test kits suck but wanted to give a little bit of more info.)
po4 0,5 (i think this has to be like in the 2 range)
Nitrate 5-10 (should also be higher i think ? )
Ammonia 0,0 mg/l (So thats not leaking from the aquasoil)

The recipe they gave me is :
(Macro)
432ML osmosis water (i used boiled tap water and let that cool down a bit)
35,24 gr KNO3
2,76 gr KH2PO4
16,04 gr K2SO4

Lights im using is : 2x juwel helialux spectrum 8 hours of light. (with rampup)
RED 100 %
Green : 100%
Blue : 80%
White : 100%

Maybe to much light ?
i thought this was possible, if you inject enough co2 / nutrients.

- CO2 - 
JBL PROFLORA inline diffusor.

Filtration : JBL CRISTALPROFI E1500

(Micro)
432ML osmosis water (i used boiled tap water and let that cool down a bit)
10 gr tenso cocktail (Trace elements) more info what it contains here : Sporenelementen (Tenso cocktail)

Pictures of my aquarium : and also the algae issues.

Rotala waliichii looks great, but the algae is between it i dont know what this is.
same with the pogostemon stellatus erectus, and the bucephalandra totally covered with it.

All tips / Help is welcome thanks alot! i want this aquarium to be a success


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## John q (23 Oct 2021)

aquagenetics said:


> The recipe they gave me is :
> (Macro)
> 432ML osmosis water (i used boiled tap water and let that cool down a bit)
> 35,24 gr KNO3
> ...


@Zeus.  Will confirm ~ ferts look good to me at 40ml doses in a 240l tank, each dose will yield kn03 8.34ppm per dose,  po4 0.74 p/dose. Assume you dose this 3x per week.


aquagenetics said:


> Water parameters - (Yes i know test kits suck but wanted to give a little bit of more info.)
> po4 0,5 (i think this has to be like in the 2 range)
> Nitrate 5-10 (should also be higher i think ? )


Pretty much matches what your adding on a daily basis, ditch the test kit, it's not needed anymore.


aquagenetics said:


> Maybe to much light ?


Hate to say it but suspect this is the culprit. 



aquagenetics said:


> thought this was possible, if you inject enough co2 / nutrients.


Might be worth re checking flow around the tank and possibly do a ph profile.


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## Cor (23 Oct 2021)

I would not recommend it.
You are now fertilizing according to EI, which means that extra nutrition comes into the water. The algae will take advantage of that.
I would go back to the lean-dose approach and dim your light for now


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## Wookii (23 Oct 2021)

Cor said:


> I would not recommend it.
> You are now fertilizing according to EI, which means that extra nutrition comes into the water. The algae will take advantage of that.
> I would go back to the lean-dose approach and dim your light for now



I think that misconception was ruled out 10 years ago. Excess ferts have no bearing on algae.


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## MichaelJ (23 Oct 2021)

If you do 50% weekly WC in your 240 L tank I would do:

1.5 gram of KNO3 3 times a week yielding 22ppm of NO3
0.25 gram of KH2PO4 3 times a week 4.5 ppm of PO4
2 grams of K2SO4 3 times a week 22 ppm of K

It's not critical that you get the grams right down to the last decimal point (hence the name Estimative Index), as long you have enough of everything and do not _grossly_ overdose then its all good.

Personally, I frontload everything, and been doing that for a long time when I do my WC just to make it easier.  And no, the fertilizer you dose will not cause algae. Lack of fertilizer, poor application of CO2 and too much light (if not matched by proper CO2 levels) will cause algae however.  As mentioned by @John q , look into your light intensity, do a pH profile, and possibly look into your flow/circulation situation. 

What water source are you using? Do you remineralize? are you having enough Mg and Ca in your water?

Cheers,
Michael


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## Cor (23 Oct 2021)

Wookii said:


> I think that misconception was ruled out 10 years ago. Excess ferts have no bearing on algae.


No it wasn't.  
Excess ferts will support the algae when it's present


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## Wookii (23 Oct 2021)

Cor said:


> No it wasn't.
> Excess ferts will support the algae when it's present



Lol . . . erm . . . yes it has - it’s been disproven many thousands of times.

Algae is present in a tank ALL THE TIME, and ferts from the leanest of lean dosing, even zero fert dosing (i.e. those generate by the tank itself from decay etc), are more than sufficient to support algae, which are at levels well below those that are required to support higher order plants. 

Algae issues in aquariums are almost always a direct result if insufficient ferts (within which I include CO2), either through insufficient dosing, insufficient distribution, or excess lighting (which results in the first two).


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## dw1305 (23 Oct 2021)

Hi all,


Cor said:


> No it wasn't.
> Excess ferts will support the algae when it's present


I look at this another way, I don't differentiate between plants and algae, <"they are all "plants">.

Some plants have fast potential growth rate and will grow very quickly in nutrient rich conditions. Some of these plants <"are algae"> and some of <"these plants are higher plants">. 


> .... Invasive macrophyte _Myriophyllum aquaticum_ is capable of assimilating nutrients from both the sediments and the water column......Results showed that concentrations of total nitrogen, total phosphorus and chlorophyll _a_ in the water column increased in the treatment groups, but decreased slightly in the control group (nutrient-poor sediment and no nutrient addition). Sediment type had a significant effect on the growth _M_. _aquaticum_, while there were no significant effects of nutrient loading levels and the interactions between the two factors. Mean relative growth rate, mean plant height, mean stem diameter, the number of lateral branches and roots in the nutrient-rich sediment treatments were 1.6, 1.2, 1.6, 3.2 and 5.9 folds greater than in the nutrient-poor sediment treatments, respectively ......


Some plants are <"_turned up to eleven plants_"> and will only grew successfully when there is an abundance of light and nutrients.  Other plants (both algae and higher plants) grew in <"nutrient poor conditions">, mainly because they are excluded from more nutrient rich conditions by plants with higher potential growth rates. 

Personally I'm going <"to grow plants"> that will <"survive in low nutrient conditions"> in <"low nutrient conditions">.  If you like they are "_turned up to three plants" _growing at a very gentle simmer.

Cheers Darrel


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## ceg4048 (23 Oct 2021)

Cor said:


> No it wasn't.
> Excess ferts will support the algae when it's present


Hello,
         As pointed out by Wookii, algae really do not care how much nutrients are in the water. If that were the case then every EI dosed tank would suffer algal blooms, so clearly this concept of nutrients causing algae is false.


aquagenetics said:


> - Water parameters - (Yes i know test kits suck but wanted to give a little bit of more info.)


Exactly, so why even bother to pay attention to sucky numbers? You won't even know how to respond to the measurements, because they suck.


aquagenetics said:


> The recipe they gave me is :
> (Macro)
> 432ML osmosis water (i used boiled tap water and let that cool down a bit)
> 35,24 gr KNO3
> ...


Again, why are you boiling water? This makes life more complicated.
Additionally, why are you even making a mixture? Your tank is large enough so that you can simply add the powders directly to the tank.


aquagenetics said:


> Lights im using is : 2x juwel helialux spectrum 8 hours of light. (with rampup)
> RED 100 %
> Green : 100%
> Blue : 80%
> ...


It is possible that the lighting is excessive. The plants need to have access to nutrients/CO2 but just because you are injecting lots of CO2 this does not automatically mean that the plants have access. CO2 technique is more tan just how far you turn the dial on your regulator. The timing of the CO2 is important and so is the method you use to dissolve it and the way you distribute the gas to the tank. Most of the CO2 you inject is lost through the top of the tank. That is why flow/distribution is important.


aquagenetics said:


> Rotala waliichii looks great, but the algae is between it i dont know what this is.
> same with the pogostemon stellatus erectus, and the bucephalandra totally covered with it.


The brown fluffy algae is diatomic algae which usually appears shortly after the tank is started. It is made worse by the use of excessive lighting and is not really dependent on nutrients or CO2.

The Anubias is suffering from Green Spot Algae (GSA) and is related to any combination of poor CO2 and poor PO4. Anubias is a slow growing plant and does not really like a lot of light when it is submerged. This is another case where strong lighting does more damage than good.

There is also green filamentous algae growing on the wood. This is a sign of:
A. Poor CO2
B. Too much light

Your second photo shows a plant covered in diatomic algae, but it also seems to be mixed with another algae that may very well be Black Beard Algae (BBA). I'm not sure from that angle.

What you should do is to remove the brown diatomic algae. You can use a toothbrush and twirl it around to pull it off the plants. You should also help your plants to survive by lowering the maximum intensity of the light to about 30%.
Perform large water changes (50% or more) 2X -3X per week.

Cheers,


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## aquagenetics (23 Oct 2021)

John q said:


> Hate to say it but suspect this is the culprit.


I thought you could have alot of light if nutrients / co2 were in check.


Cor said:


> I would not recommend it.
> You are now fertilizing according to EI, which means that extra nutrition comes into the water. The algae will take advantage of that.
> I would go back to the lean-dose approach and dim your light for now


i thought this was ruled out by tom barr, that it doesnt cause more algae, i've read its the other way around if u dose to less. because algae needs less nutrients to thrive then regular plants.


Wookii said:


> I think that misconception was ruled out 10 years ago. Excess ferts have no bearing on algae.


i thought so aswell.


MichaelJ said:


> 1.5 gram of KNO3 3 times a week yielding 22ppm of NO3
> 0.25 gram of KH2PO4 3 times a week 4.5 ppm of PO4
> 2 grams of K2SO4 3 times a week 22 ppm of K


how would i translate this to a recipe, that i can make liquid ferts from


MichaelJ said:


> What water source are you using? Do you remineralize? are you having enough Mg and Ca in your water?


i'am using regular tap water, as thats pretty decent in the netherlands. i dont know about the mg and ca in the water.


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## aquagenetics (23 Oct 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> Exactly, so why even bother to pay attention to sucky numbers? You won't even know how to respond to the measurements, because they suck.


i did this to try to see if im adding more nutrients to the tank now, because i'am new with EI wanted to see if the phosphate,nitrate etc is higher now.


ceg4048 said:


> Again, why are you boiling water? This makes life more complicated.
> Additionally, why are you even making a mixture? Your tank is large enough so that you can simply add the powders directly to the tank.


i boiled the water, because the recipe asked for osmosis water, i didnt have that at home so i read i could also boil water and then let that cool down.
as in adding the powders directly to the tank i never done this, i am completely new with EI first i was using AIO, so i just made some liquid ferts according to that recipe. 
this is also more handy for me, then weighing the powders every time. before adding to the tank.


ceg4048 said:


> It is possible that the lighting is excessive. The plants need to have access to nutrients/CO2 but just because you are injecting lots of CO2 this does not automatically mean that the plants have access. CO2 technique is more tan just how far you turn the dial on your regulator. The timing of the CO2 is important and so is the method you use to dissolve it and the way you distribute the gas to the tank. Most of the CO2 you inject is lost through the top of the tank. That is why flow/distribution is important.


i let the co2 come on around 3 hours before light goes on, so my dropchecker is lime green, i inject the co2 through an inline diffusor.


ceg4048 said:


> What you should do is to remove the brown diatomic algae. You can use a toothbrush and twirl it around to pull it off the plants. You should also help your plants to survive by lowering the maximum intensity of the light to about 30%.
> Perform large water changes (50% or more) 2X -3X per week.


i will do that i have one question about the WC do i have to dose again after ? i will lower the lights a bit, i think to 30% is a little bit much though, i would still like to see the plants pearl.
here is the current light profile, i think i will reduce the light by 10 % every day. till i dont see them pearling anymore, then increase them a bit.


Thanks alot everyone!





and here is the setting


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## Andy Pierce (24 Oct 2021)

Is pearling really a thing?  I do EI dosing and CO2 injection but I've never noticed anything I'd call 'pearling' on the plants, which otherwise seem really healthy.  If I turn up the light intensity, I get GSA rather than pearling.  If your plants look healthy I'd call it a win so I'm not sure it's useful to aim for pearling rather than healthy plants and reasonably controlled algae.


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## MichaelJ (24 Oct 2021)

aquagenetics said:


> how would i translate this to a recipe, that i can make liquid ferts from


Just dose the compounds straight into the tank. No reason to go through the hoops and loops of making a mixture with boiled water etc.  I mix my weekly dosing of NPK compounds straight into my WC water, but could just as well dose it straight into the tank after the WC - wont matter either way.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (24 Oct 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> If that were the case then every EI dosed tank would suffer algal blooms, so clearly this concept of nutrients causing algae is false.


Exactly. I am running both my tanks with an abundance of NPK (way, way more than my low tech tanks will ever need... in part to confirm what you, among others, have been telling me...)  zero algae to speak of... Of course, there are algae but nothing that meets the eye in an obtrusive way or take away from the health of the plants.

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (24 Oct 2021)

Andy Pierce said:


> Is pearling really a thing?


Its not a good measure of much apparently. Personally, I never liked it from an aesthetic point of view - plants engulfed in air bubbles? Not sure what the aesthetic draw is with that. Hey you can even get sewage to pearl 

Cheers,
Michael


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## MichaelJ (24 Oct 2021)

aquagenetics said:


> and here is the setting
> 
> View attachment 175907


The RGB ratios doesn't really matter... just choose a "color" that make the tank look good to your eyes, and lower the intensity as mentioned above.


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## John q (24 Oct 2021)

aquagenetics said:


> I thought you could have alot of light if nutrients / co2 were in check.


Running a high light tank is possible, but to do it successfully requires a great deal of skill and you really need to be sure all the plants are receiving the co2 and nutrients that the high light demands, you also need to ensure tank maintenance is on point (water changes, filter maintenance, removal of organic waste etc)

I took this quote from another thread.


aquagenetics said:


> Lights : 2x juwel helialux spectrum (120 watt total)


That's a lot of light.

I also watched this video that was posted in the same thread.
Post in thread 'Juwel Rio 240 Planted Tank' Juwel Rio 240 Planted Tank

Not trying to bash you mate but I suspect the issues you are having are related to poor flow around the tank, the light intensity you have is creating a co2 demand that you can't supply to all the plants.

Lower the light intensity and work on increasing that flow.


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## Courtneybst (24 Oct 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> Again, why are you boiling water? This makes life more complicated.


Not to hijack the thread, but is boiling water for EI mixtures unnecessary? I've been doing it for about 10 years as that's what it says on the recipe but I would love to omit that part if it's not needed! As you said, it makes life more complicated.

Personally, I make the mixture rather than dry salts because it's more convenient in my setup.


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## Wookii (24 Oct 2021)

Courtneybst said:


> Not to hijack the thread, but is boiling water for EI mixtures unnecessary? I've been doing it for about 10 years as that's what it says on the recipe but I would love to omit that part if it's not needed! As you said, it makes life more complicated.
> 
> Personally, I make the mixture rather than dry salts because it's more convenient in my setup.



I may be wrong, but my understanding was that the boiling was to reduce/eliminate the bacteria in the water so it doesn’t spoil the solution if kept for longer periods.

Though you can probably avoid the boiling if you add potassium sorbate to the mix instead.


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## Courtneybst (24 Oct 2021)

Wookii said:


> I may be wrong, but my understanding was that the boiling was to reduce/eliminate the bacteria in the water so it doesn’t spoil the solution if kept for longer periods.
> 
> Though you can probably avoid the boiling if you add potassium sorbate to the mix instead.


Interesting! Thanks.


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## Andy Pierce (24 Oct 2021)

The version I heard is the boiling is to precipate out the calcium ('temporary hardness') from the tap water so that the calcium ions won't precipitate out the phosphate in the macro mix as insoluble calcium phosphate.


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## dw1305 (24 Oct 2021)

Hi all,


Wookii said:


> was that the boiling was to reduce/eliminate the bacteria in the water


That would work and so would potassium sorbate. Boiled rain-water? would work fine as well.


Courtneybst said:


> Personally, I make the mixture rather than dry salts because it's more convenient in my setup.


Entirely a matter of personal choice, all liquid fertiliser mixes are made with compounds that are highly soluble. I like dilute solutions for smaller tanks because it means you don't have to play with very small weights.


Andy Pierce said:


> The version I heard is the boiling is to precipate out the calcium ('temporary hardness') from the tap water so that the calcium ions won't precipitate out the phosphate in the macro mix as insoluble calcium phosphate.


Yes, that is right. If you strain the boiling water through a muslin etc it will remove the temporary hardness, because at boiling the water will be degassed and any calcium (Ca++) or bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions will have formed <"insoluble "scale">.

cheers Darrel


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## aquagenetics (25 Oct 2021)

Update : i dialed the lights down 20% of each color, each day i decreased by 10% i also added 2 siamese algae eaters, so the dose im currently giving in EI is enough ?
also i got a question if its neccesary to alternate between days, like monday macro and tuesday micro etc.

in this pdf is the scheme im following


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## aquagenetics (25 Oct 2021)

Andy Pierce said:


> Is pearling really a thing? I do EI dosing and CO2 injection but I've never noticed anything I'd call 'pearling' on the plants, which otherwise seem really healthy. If I turn up the light intensity, I get GSA rather than pearling. If your plants look healthy I'd call it a win so I'm not sure it's useful to aim for pearling rather than healthy plants and reasonably controlled algae.


Yes pearling is a thing, its when the plant is assimilating, when its doing optimal photosynthesis in the video you see bubbles coming of my plants, thats the pearling as i call it.


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## ceg4048 (25 Oct 2021)

aquagenetics said:


> i did this to try to see if im adding more nutrients to the tank now, because i'am new with EI wanted to see if the phosphate,nitrate etc is higher now.


Well, lets be reasonable; If you add PO4 to the tank how could there not be more PO4? There is no reason to measure it.
This is one of the main principles of EI. "NO MORE NEED FOR TESTING".
Many years ago, before the advent of EI, when everyone thought that nutrients caused algae, hobbyist spent a great deal of money, time and energy measuring nutrient levels in an attempt to control and to limit their values.
Barr demonstrated that the opposite was true, that an UNLIMITED supply of nutrients guaranteed that plants would not fail due to malnutrition. Therefore, if the concentration levels were unlimited, and if you did not need to control the concentration levels, then there was no more need to measure the values. When you add the EI level of nutrition they automatically become UNLIMITED, so who cares what the measured values are?
When you adopt the principles of EI, by default you accept that the nutrient levels are what they are, you accept that they do not cause algal blooms, no matter what the levels are, and you accept that the values are not harmful to flora or fauna.
Test kits are expensive. It is better to spend your money on more plants, better equipment, higher quality fish, and so on and so forth because testing the water for nutrient levels will not make you a better plant grower.

This is a really important principle, both technically and psychologically. The reason is simple:
A. If the test kit result returns a number that you expect you may be happy and likely will take no further action.
B. If the test kit result returns a number that you do not expect you will likely attempt some action to rectify.

The problem here is that you can never be certain whether the results are true. Test kits sometimes tell you the truth and at other times they lie. The problem is that you never know which time is the truth and which time is the lie. That's why test kits suck.
So it is entirely possible that in the case of "A" your expectation may be faulty and the results confirm your faulty expectations.  In the case of "B" the results may be true and the action you take may well lead you down the path of destruction.

If you add "X" ppm of NO3 to the tank then be satisfied that you have at least "X" ppm and be done with it. The tank may easily have a higher NO3 due to nitrification or due to tap water, but so what? This will not cause algae and it will not cause health issues. We have proven this time and time again.

What you do need to be careful of is that high nutrient levels and high CO2 result in high plant metabolic rates and as a result, high metabolic waste, which causes problems for plants and fish alike. Therefore some hobbyists elect to reduce the nutrient loading and to reduce the CO2 injection - and most importantly, to then also reduce the light intensity.

So EI is a proven method that is rugged and effective, but it is also flexible and allows you to vary the input to suit your maintenance schedule. But at no time do you ever need to measure because you are in control of the amounts that you add to the tank and they cannot magically disappear or magically multiply.


aquagenetics said:


> i boiled the water, because the recipe asked for osmosis water, i didnt have that at home so i read i could also boil water and then let that cool down.





Courtneybst said:


> is boiling water for EI mixtures unnecessary? I've been doing it for about 10 years as that's what it says on the recipe but I would love to omit that part if it's not needed! As you said, it makes life more complicated.


Again, whoever gave you a recipe which includes the use of osmosis water is another of those hobbyists paranoid about nutrient levels, fearing that there may be nutrients in the water or that the tap water may be chlorinated. The small amount of water that you will add to the tank with each dose will not be harmful to the fish or plants. The additional nutrients in the tap water will also not be a major factor. If you are concerned about chlorination then just use tank water. None of these factors matter at all and boiling water is tedious and unnecessary. Simplify your life. Grab any water that is convenient and just get on with it.


aquagenetics said:


> adding the powders directly to the tank i never done this, i am completely new with EI first i was using AIO, so i just made some liquid ferts according to that recipe.
> this is also more handy for me, then weighing the powders every time. before adding to the tank.


As stated by another poster above, making a mixture suited their method, perhaps they are using an auto-doser. OK, if that is the case then fine, a mixture is needed. If you are not using such a device, and if the tank is large enough, then just use a teaspoon. I see no need for any weighing. This is another unnecessary complication.
In the Original Post of this thread the poster listed his recipe with the powder weights shown to the nearest hundredth of a gram. This is completely outrageous I _virtually _fell off my chair. Does anyone imagine that their plants will notice a difference  of a hundredth or a tenth of a gram of nutrients?
Simply use the equivalence that 1 teaspoon of nutrients equals 6 grams and ESTIMATE the amounts added directly to the tank or in the mixture using your convenient water supply. It doesn't matter if you scoop a heaping teaspoon or a level teaspoon. It simply doesn't matter folks. That is why this is called The ETIMATIVE Index.
Have I mentioned that the plants don't care if the amounts are a bit higher or a bit lower? The nutrient concentration level presented to the plants, from their perspective, will be infinite.

Cheers,


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## ian_m (26 Oct 2021)

ceg4048 said:


> and if the tank is large enough, then just use a teaspoon. I see no need for any weighing. This is another unnecessary complication.


To save time and messing around with tea spoons etc every day, pre measure EI dry powder doses (using tea spoons) into small plastic containers, labelled for each day of the week. I mixed up a large quantity of EI MIX, many weeks worth, then placed in labelled containers for easy dosing. My mistake was to use narrow bottles, which made getting the doses into the bottles hard.

Then come say Tuesday, pick up Tuesday container, open dump in tank, place empty container in bag for refilling next time you get round to it. Job done, easy peasy.

For example these 10ml plastic jars, big enough to about 2 tsp of EI mix. Buy 36 for 6 weeks supply (dosing 6 days a week). 
10ml Clear Screw Top Jar With White Lid - Ampulla Ltd - 0161 367 1414


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## REDSTEVEO (1 Nov 2021)

Having been around the block a bit, several times I have some experience both good and bad.

My issue is not anything to do with EI Dosing or CO2, or light. Over the years I have used just about every substrate available from ADA Amazonia Aquasoil, ADA Power Sand, Powders, Tropica Substrates, Soil, JBL Planting Medium. 

And having tried them all, the ones that gave me the most problems and biggest issues with every kind of algae possible are the brown Soils and Powders. The dust from these soils remains suspended in the water column and settles on the leaves of every single plant. Very quickly that creates a barrier preventing the light from getting to the plant. Brown diatoms, algae forms quickly and once in it is a very tough job to get rid if it.

So I always end up going back to the thing that works for me. SERA Floradepot as the Base substrate, 1.5 to 2 inches deep, capped off with 1.5 to 2 inches of Unipac Quartz White Maui Fine Sand. The depth is determined by the type of plants you intend to use.

Really healthy growth, zero algae problems. All supported by EI Dosing and injected CO2.


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