# My second attempt



## FerdinandPorsche (18 Feb 2014)

Hi guys. First time writing a journal here, this is my second attempt on a planted aquarium. Only got to know this remarkable hobby 2 years back, but only managed to start the tank 1 year after reading and preparation. Yet, I still feel the 1 year of reading proves lacking hence the need to read more. I will try to update as often as possible.

 

The tank data as follows:
2ft ADA 60P
UP-Aqua pro-led-z-20
Eheim 2217 using 12/16mm CADE lily pipes
Intense inline diffuser, bubble counter, check valve and solenoid regulator (3bps)
Hailea HS-28A (~25c)
ADA amazonia soil, ADA 5 elements (re-use from 1st tank)


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## FerdinandPorsche (18 Feb 2014)

As of today, I had a jumper in my tank from the rummy nose family of 4, now 3.

My plants overall are turning yellow, a sign of iron or potassium deficiency I suspect. I was using the EI regime and increased my potassium dosage from 10ml to 30ml in a test but nothing improved. I thought using ADA Brighty K might solve the problem (someone ended up suggesting BW Essence K as it is cheaper), hence I changed the regime now to 3 push of BW Essence K every 2 alternate day ; and Step 1 ADA every alternate day since the recent Sunday.

I also got the advise to insert ADA multi bottom into the substrate to enrich the soil nutrients which could be lacking. However, this should not be the case for mosses. Hence I came the suspect potassium in the water column is insufficient.


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## FerdinandPorsche (20 Feb 2014)

Hi all, I have hydrocotyle that is deteriorating by day. As seen below, a picture of before and after in a difference of a day. What nutrient am I lacking?




Edit: the said leaf is dead the following day.


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## dw1305 (20 Feb 2014)

Hi all,





FerdinandPorsche said:


> My plants overall are turning yellow, a sign of iron or potassium deficiency I suspect





FerdinandPorsche said:


> I have hydrocotyle that is deteriorating by day. As seen below, a picture of before and after in a difference of a day. What nutrient am I lacking?


 Nitrogen.

cheers Darrel


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## FerdinandPorsche (20 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, Nitrogen.
> 
> cheers Darrel


 

Hi Darrel. I tried dosing lots of NPK before but it did not seem to work. Any other reasons?


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## FerdinandPorsche (20 Feb 2014)

I have a TDS meter, it says 270. Is this in TDS or in PPM? Somehow I am confused with these two measurements.

A TDS meter typically displays the TDS in parts per million (ppm). For example, a TDS reading of 1 ppm would indicate there is 1 milligram of dissolved solids in each kilogram of water

This is mentioned in wikipedia. So does this mean I have a ppm of 270, which is more than the said >30ppm in the chart above. Doesn't it show that I have potassium deficiency as I have holes in my hydrocotyle.



> There are always going to be issues with CO2 and aquarist assumptions(this assumes that IF is true.....many times hobbyist think it is....when it is not), no chart is going to rectify that. Help one on one, discussions etc.....it's a more complex problem than a chart can help in many cases........
> 
> Few charts even address CO2, so this gets good points for that.
> 
> ...


As mentioned by Tom on the most common problem, I will try to increase my co2 from 3bps to 4bps to test things out.

However, delivery of co2 across the tank is also important. I am using an inline diffuser, which I believe should be better than a standard diffuser that is easily released into the surface. It should also be following the waters flow which should be great. Any advise on this?


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## dw1305 (20 Feb 2014)

Hi all,
I'll ignore carbon for the moment, but the reason it is *nitrogen deficiency* is that there are two (of the the three) macro-nutrients that plants require in large amounts.

They are nitrogen(N), and potassium (K). Plants need about x10 as much of these as they do the third macro nutrient phosphorus (P), and all the micro-nutrients (magnesium (Mg), iron (Fe) etc.), although required, are needed in even smaller amount.

Chlorophyll is a chlorin pigment, that has a central magnesium atom surrounded by nitrogen atoms. When you don't have sufficient nitrogen 

your plant can't produce chlorophyll and the leaves yellow. This yellowing also happens when the plant is short of potassium, but you've added more potassium and nothing happened. If you are short of magnesium, you get yellowing, but this is less likely and also tend to give interveinal chlorosis.

Have a look at the "Duckweed index", it is a low tech. method where you use the health and colour of a floating plant (this removes CO2 from the equation) as an index of when to add nutrients <Low maintainence, long term sustrate | UK Aquatic Plant Society> & <Plants with Deficiency of something | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.



FerdinandPorsche said:


> I have a TDS meter, it says 270. Is this in TDS or in PPM? Somehow I am confused with these two measurements


 Your TDS meter actually measures electrical conductivity (in microS) and then use a conversion factor (it should say on the meter, but it will be between 0.55 - 0.64). You divide conductivity in microS by the conversion factor to give ppm TDS. So 100 microS. approximates to about 60 ppm TDS. 





FerdinandPorsche said:


> This is mentioned in wikipedia. So does this mean I have a ppm of 270, which is more than the said >30ppm in the chart above.


 No, it has nothing to do with the amount of dissolved CO2. TDS is "Total Dissolved Solids", but what you've actually measured with your meter is the total amount of dissolved salts as ions. Pure H2O is an electrical insulator, and there is a linear relationship between the amount of ions in the water and the conductivity. Have a look here: <TDS of London Tap Water | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

Your TDS value of 270ppm is actually quite low, meaning that you don't have many salts of any description in the tank water. As an example of what I mean sea water would be about 35,000 ppm TDS.

Try adding some nitrogen, I would expect a fairly rapid greening.

cheers Darrel


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## FerdinandPorsche (21 Feb 2014)

Darrel, thank your for the remarkable explanation. 



dw1305 said:


> This yellowing also happens when the plant is short of potassium, but you've added more potassium and nothing happened


 
I have the following regime:




> P1
> a) KNO3 = gives K and N
> b) KH2PO4 = gives K and P
> c) High End (h.e) for Macro Nutrients (P1) will gives EXTRA K (POTASSIUM)
> ...


 
When I mentioned I dosed more potassium, I am also dosing more on nitrogen.

But now I have switched to BorneoWild Essence K to test, as the description mentioned also the following:



> BORNEOWILD ESSENCE K is a concentrated source of potassium and trace elements. It encourages absorption of *Nitrogen* in plants during photosynthesis thus allowing for healthier and accelerated growth. Prevents yellowing leaves and leggy bottom growth.


 
I am dosing BW Essence K on 3 pushes, do you recommend me dosing more?


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## FerdinandPorsche (21 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> No, it has nothing to do with the amount of dissolved CO2. TDS is "Total Dissolved Solids", but what you've actually measured with your meter is the total amount of dissolved salts as ions.


 
From my understanding of what you have mentioned, the TDS meter is not to measure the amount of co2 ppm.



dw1305 said:


> Your TDS value of 270ppm is actually quite low, meaning that you don't have many salts of any description in the tank water. As an example of what I mean sea water would be about 35,000 ppm TDS.


 
With that being said, how shrimps like CRS live in very low TDS and we maintain the tank on a low TDS and manage the plants healthily?

I appreciate everyone's advise.


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## dw1305 (21 Feb 2014)

Hi all, 





FerdinandPorsche said:


> When I mentioned I dosed more potassium, I am also dosing more on nitrogen.


 It is really going to depend on how much you dose, KNO3 is really a potassium source that supplies some nitrogen as well.

You need to look at the percentage of each element KNO3 has an RMM of 101 (K=39, N=14, O=16 (3*16=48)). I'll call that 100, so KNO3 is 39%K, 14% N, (and 62% NO3).


FerdinandPorsche said:


> I have switched to BorneoWild Essence K to test, as the description mentioned also the following


 Personally I wouldn't use any of the mixes from manufacturers, you're paying a mark up of literally thousands of percent of the cost of the chemicals. I'd buy an "all in one mix" from one of our sponsors, like <Home page>. If you want to buy the salts individually and make up your own mixes, you can use the calculator at the excellent "James' Planted Tank" <James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator>. 





FerdinandPorsche said:


> With that being said, how shrimps like CRS live in very low TDS and we maintain the tank on a low TDS and manage the plants healthily?


 The low TDS for CRS is a lot to do with having water with low carbonate hardness.You can have very hard water with very few nutrients. As an example our tap water is about 17dKH and 400ppm TDS, but all this is dissolved calcium carbonate, and it has virtually no other ions (NO3- less than 5ppm etc).

You can keep a lot of plants growing slowly in very nutrient poor water, all my tanks are low tech., soft water and run at about 100ppm TDS, (and often ~60ppm TDS). I very occasionally feed them using the "Duckweed Index", but they often go for 6 months or more without any fertiliser addition. Have a look a this thread <Water Lettuce and it's impact on my tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


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## FerdinandPorsche (21 Feb 2014)

dw1305 said:


> Hi all, It is really going to depend on how much you dose, KNO3 is really a potassium source that supplies some nitrogen as well.
> 
> You need to look at the percentage of each element KNO3 has an RMM of 101 (K=39, N=14, O=16 (3*16=48)). I'll call that 100, so KNO3 is 39%K, 14% N, (and 62% NO3).
> Personally I wouldn't use any of the mixes from manufacturers, you're paying a mark up of literally thousands of percent of the cost of the chemicals. I'd buy an "all in one mix" from one of our sponsors, like <Home page>. If you want to buy the salts individually and make up your own mixes, you can use the calculator at the excellent "James' Planted Tank" <James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator>. The low TDS for CRS is a lot to do with having water with low carbonate hardness.You can have very hard water with very few nutrients. As an example our tap water is about 17dKH and 400ppm TDS, but all this is dissolved calcium carbonate, and it has virtually no other ions (NO3- less than 5ppm etc).
> ...


 

I am understanding TDS more. Fundamentally, TDS is nothing more than measurement of the ions reaction in the water. However, high TDS may or may not be contributed due to high dosage of fertilizers. Hence, the reason why many people disregard TDS as a variable.

I am not from UK, but I have joined due to the activeness of the forum. Hence I need other ways to source for local fertilizers. The one I searched before was aquariumfertilizer.com. But I will see how I can get around preparing EI myself. For the time being I will make use of my available manufactured mix. As I have no control of the NPK, I have to increase them together.


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## parotet (21 Feb 2014)

I am from Spain and I bought ferts to one of the UKAP sponsors... if you buy enough quantity, better prices than in most places in Spain


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## dw1305 (21 Feb 2014)

Hi all,





FerdinandPorsche said:


> Fundamentally, TDS is nothing more than measurement of the ions reaction in the water. However, high TDS may or may not be contributed due to high dosage of fertilizers. Hence, the reason why many people disregard TDS as a variable.


 Yes that is right, exactly that.

The only advantage that TDS (really electrical conductivity) has is that it is easy to measure.

All the other parameters we might be more interested in are a lot more difficult to quantify.

Some like pH are useful in hard alkaline or very acid water, but not so useful in very soft water or around pH7.

Others are more problematic, like NO3-, and dissolved gases (CO2, O2, NH3) are all almost impossible to measure outside of a proper laboratory. 





FerdinandPorsche said:


> As I have no control of the NPK, I have to increase them together.


 This is a problem with nitrogen, there are more nitrogen rich compounds that are used in horticulture, like urea (CO(NH2)2), ammonium sulphate ((NH4)2SO4) and ammonium nitrate (NH3NO3), but they all have the disadvantage of adding ammonia (NH3). Because I keep very "jungly" tanks I have used just an off the shelf soluble fertilizer, but this does carry risks. There is more discussion here: <Off The Shelf Ferts - non aquatic | UK Aquatic Plant Society>.

cheers Darrel


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## FerdinandPorsche (21 Feb 2014)

parotet said:


> I am from Spain and I bought ferts to one of the UKAP sponsors... if you buy enough quantity, better prices than in most places in Spain


 

Thanks mate  I'll message them and see what's next.

One question though, do you all follow the standard micro and macro mixture (2 bottles)? Or do you mix each nutrient by its own water bottle (4 bottles)? Like my situation as Darrel mentioned needs more nitrate, if I follow the standard guide, I would be dosing KNO3 + KH2PO4 when I only need NO3.

1 x bottle Potassium Nitrate
1 x bottle Potassium Phosphate
1 x bottle Magnesium Sulphate
1 x bottle Chelated Trace Elements


Another question I have been wondering, why must there be potassium nitrate and not nitrate alone?


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## aliclarke86 (21 Feb 2014)

Two bottles. NPK in one and trace in the other 

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## FerdinandPorsche (25 Feb 2014)

My tank running at 3bps with Intense inline diffuser 12/16mm. Please advise whether the output bubbles are normally this size or smaller.


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## aliclarke86 (25 Feb 2014)

Look large to me mate. Only time I've used an inline it has made the whole tank look murky with really small bubbles 

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## FerdinandPorsche (25 Feb 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> Look large to me mate. Only time I've used an inline it has made the whole tank look murky with really small bubbles
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk



Yea, I do think they are huge. As the ones I seen are misty white in the lfs. I'll try to get some bleach to see if it is clogged. It takes 3 hours + to get the co2 checker yellow.


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## FerdinandPorsche (26 Feb 2014)

One of the Anubias I am monitoring showed slight improvement from yellow to very little green. The same Anubias are also having staghorn algae. Based on my readings, staghorn usually appear in low CO2 tanks. However, I am blasting my tank with lots of CO2. Any reason being? My CO2 is diffused inline with my lily pipe on the left, but this staghorn is growing on the right side of my tank. Not only the Anubias are affected, some carpet plants too.





Cherry shrimps added to the tank! Beautiful tiny creature pleasant to the eyes. And a tiny hydrocotyle surviving from the lack of light in a cave .


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## aliclarke86 (26 Feb 2014)

How often do you clean your filter?
Also it looks like BBA to me
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## FerdinandPorsche (27 Feb 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> How often do you clean your filter?
> Also it looks like BBA to me
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk



Hi Ali, I think you are right. I have BBA on my anubias and slight staghorns on my carpets.

Seems BBA is also linked to lack of CO2 or excess in nutrients?


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## aliclarke86 (27 Feb 2014)

In my experience fluctuations in co2 lead to BBA out breaks and I've only ever had staghorn when I slacked on substrate and filter cleaning 

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## Spnl (27 Feb 2014)

Hi
I have had similar large bubbles from an inline atomizer, but they should be very fine like smoke. I have sent mine back.
You have quite bad BBA on the older leaves on the Anubias. If you can drain the water low enough to expose those leaves and apply neat Easycarbo before topping up the water it will clean them up a treat. Trouble with BBA is it doesn't go away by itself after you fix the cause.


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## FerdinandPorsche (27 Feb 2014)

Spnl said:


> Hi
> I have had similar large bubbles from an inline atomizer, but they should be very fine like smoke. I have sent mine back.
> You have quite bad BBA on the older leaves on the Anubias. If you can drain the water low enough to expose those leaves and apply neat Easycarbo before topping up the water it will clean them up a treat. Trouble with BBA is it doesn't go away by itself after you fix the cause.



Thanks mate for confirming. Got to know from a friend these inline cant be fixed, they have to be replaced with new ones. Not sure if the lfs will replace it for me after more than half a year. I was told they should be soaked in water before being used to open up the pores or somewhere along that line.

Fortunately, these BBA only grow on the right side of my tank. The anubias on the left are not affected, at most are GSA. I don't have any EasyCarbo here selling at the shops. I prefer to go natural, but seems you already answered in the second statement. Probably my cherries will help me get rid of them. If not I'll try to go with Seachem Excel.


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## aliclarke86 (27 Feb 2014)

Excel will work fine of h202. Nothing will eat it until its dead ime 

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## FerdinandPorsche (27 Feb 2014)

My plants are pretty much yellowish despite daily dose of ADA Step 1 (4push), BW Essence K (4push), EI's NPK (5ml). One thing is I'm not sure the ratio of the NPK mix as I did not prepare it.


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## FerdinandPorsche (3 Mar 2014)

Given the problem I cannot dose when the lights are on but only 5 hours later (for a period of 8 hours lighting on), is it better to dose *before* or '5 hours later'.


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## aliclarke86 (3 Mar 2014)

The nutrients should still be in the water, I dose at approximately 5am and lights come on at 15.15

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## Sacha (3 Mar 2014)

It's pretty irrelevant what time you dose at, if you are dosing EI. All that matters is that you dose at roughly the same time every day.


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## FerdinandPorsche (3 Mar 2014)

aliclarke86 said:


> The nutrients should still be in the water, I dose at approximately 5am and lights come on at 15.15
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9505G using Tapatalk



Thanks.



Sacha said:


> It's pretty irrelevant what time you dose at, if you are dosing EI. All that matters is that you dose at roughly the same time every day.



Got it, I believe so too. Just wanted to confirm if it is valid. As nutrients are already in the water column, it wouldn't disappear until used or changed. But dosing before should be better than dosing after cause the plants might be waiting for the nutrients to come. But like you said if we are dosing EI, that shouldn't be a problem.


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## FerdinandPorsche (5 Mar 2014)

Following the duckweed index, this plant's leaf has curled up a little on the yellow part. Underneath it, the roots are turning brown from the outside. My hydrocotyles all share similar traits.


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## FerdinandPorsche (10 Mar 2014)

I turned up the co2 a few notch on friday night. I was on a trip and returned on sunday. I found one dead shrimp, and many hardly breathing. Dropchecker was totally yellow. Hairgrass did not looked as yellow as before. I would like my fauna to remain, and preserve the co2 condition as there are improvements. Should i reduce the injection rate a little, or removing the fauna is a better option?


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## FerdinandPorsche (12 Mar 2014)

I have dropped the co2 injection rate a little, the DC is towards dark yellow instead of pure yellow (when the faunas were suffocating). pH is yellowish, as seen below.

8:00 PM (5 hours after lights on)




10:30 PM (half an hour before lights out)




CO2 are turned off at 9:00 PM, lights goes out at 11:00 PM.  I read one of the articles, Clive mentioned that the first half of the lights on period are the most important times when CO2 are optimum. Hence, by switching off 2 hours earlier before lights go out, should still be fine as even at 10:30 PM, the pH level is still yellowish as indicated.

Just checked again at 11:00 PM, a minute after lights went out, it was light blue going to total dark blue.


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## FerdinandPorsche (12 Mar 2014)

Plants remain yellowish, despite the 5th day after co2 injection rate being increased. Going to monitor this weekend if by 3:00 PM (lights on), co2 are at optimum level or not.


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## FerdinandPorsche (26 Mar 2014)

Despite overdosing co2 for 2 weeks, my plants remain yellowish and BBA is still growing. What can be the cause of my problem?

Beyond that, in the past week I have elevated my light probably 3+ inches.


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## Edvet (26 Mar 2014)

Flow would be the first culprit.


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## FerdinandPorsche (26 Mar 2014)

Edvet said:


> Flow would be the first culprit.



Indeed the rocks formed lots of spots that stops water from flowing a full circle round the tank. However, these BBA grows at the front right of the tank. These BBA feels the water flow as they will sway. But no doubt, the water flow overall could be bad. Probably switching to a spray bar would be a good attempt.


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## FerdinandPorsche (27 Mar 2014)

Decided to swap the lily pipe output to spray bar. However, undecided which is the best flow. Testing to point downwards so that it will move towards the top back part.

Lights are currently half a feet+ from water surface. Looks quite dark in the pictures, and slight blindspot in turn. Trying to opt for low light condition.


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## Edvet (27 Mar 2014)

Just below and parallel to the watersurface is what most use i think


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## FerdinandPorsche (27 Mar 2014)

Edvet said:


> Just below and parallel to the watersurface is what most use i think



Edvet, will it be fine with my in pipe placed in the same location, on the back of the tank on the left side.


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## FerdinandPorsche (3 Apr 2014)

Even after lifting 1 ft + above the water surface, algae still grow on rocks at the lowest possible PAR.


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## flygja (3 Apr 2014)

One thing with LEDs is that plants will always look a bit yellowish compared to fluorescents. Try swapping with fluorescents and take a photo with the same camera white balance settings.

I've also had issues with BBA and LEDs. Even with CO2 close to killing fish, I just can't stop BBA from growing. Haven't figured it out yet.


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## FerdinandPorsche (4 Apr 2014)

flygja said:


> One thing with LEDs is that plants will always look a bit yellowish compared to fluorescents. Try swapping with fluorescents and take a photo with the same camera white balance settings.
> 
> I've also had issues with BBA and LEDs. Even with CO2 close to killing fish, I just can't stop BBA from growing. Haven't figured it out yet.



At a point, I was gassing my cherries I had to move them to another tank. They were having weak legs, slowly dying. I knew I had to move these lots to another tank. But still BBA was and is very persistent.

flygja, I am only using iphone camera to snap. I tried before using Azoo 55W light, it looks greener instead of bright. I'll try just that once I got the time.


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