# Creeping Death



## ZeeDeveel (17 Jan 2022)

Stunting my Fissidens, it has mostly stopped growing since this began. 

BBA? Hard to tell because its so small!


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## ZeeDeveel (17 Jan 2022)

I believe this is some kind of grey fuzz/hair algae. 

Reduced light intensity and photoperiod (which was previously ambitiously bright and long) and spot treated with excel. 

Seems to be gone now.


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## ZeeDeveel (10 Feb 2022)

OK I do need help, I'm not sure what this is but it's spreading. 

I've turned the light duration and intensity down. It started in a specific spot where the light was most intense, it isn't so prominent there and has definitely improved but its slowly spreading and everything it touches stops growing. It's like creeping death. 

Its pretty much killed all my salvinia, the roots are super infested with it. I took them out and dunked them in high concentration of EasyCarbo water and it hasn't made a difference. 

Turning down the light intensity has helped but I've increased easycarbo dosage and it doesn't seem to hurt it. 

This is in my planted bowl, it's only about 3-4 weeks old so I was expecting algae but I don't know what this is and I'm worried that it's slowly gonna choke everything.


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## ZeeDeveel (13 Feb 2022)

Anyone have any info on this? I've had to rip out half the plants in my bowl, it's choking everything. 

I'm happy to research how to treat it myself but an ID would be helpful.


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## Konsa (13 Feb 2022)

Hi
pics are quite unclear so can't really comment on the algae but I will really be careful with Easycarbo as rapid melt on plants  and their roots is often a result of misuse of such products in high concentration .I haven't really seen  such plant melt due to algae yet in my experience. 
Do you have any flow in that bowl or livestock?
More info on the system,maintenance and ferts with more clear pics will be hopeful 
Regards Konstantin


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## si walker (13 Feb 2022)

Is it a bowl or planted into some kind of soil? 
Is it a new set up?
If so just do a water change every day for a couple of weeks and keep an eye on it. Hopefully it will improve. Sure as hell wont do any harm!
Si


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## ZeeDeveel (13 Feb 2022)

I don't have any flow except a few 1" fish and 3 cherry shrimp. I'm using Tropica ferts and liquid carbon. This is the bowl pre-algae...



The weird thing is it's massacring my salvinia. So I'm sure lack of flow and too much lighting (which I've fixed) are big problems which are helping the algae to grow but it just seems to choke any fine plants it touches. The worst affected were my salvinia and myriophyllum Guyana.

Maybe the Guyana died due to the liquid carbo I don't know but it was super infested with this grey algae.

I'm sure this algae is doing something bad though because of the salvinia, I have some new growth on the salvinia which looks super healthy but the old stuff has its roots infested with this and the old parts of the plant are dying. The salvinia death started before the liquid carbon, I actually bought the carbon because the salvinia seemed to be dying to this algae.

I've reduced the lighting significantly and pulled out all plants that were infested so hopefully the new growth will be able to fight it off. I just hoped someone would be able to ID it from the pics as it doesn't look like any pics of any other algae I can find...


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## GHNelson (13 Feb 2022)

Need more information!
Dear Member
Please give as much detail as possible regarding your aquarium set-up, when requiring advice/help!

1. Size of tank in litres.
2. Age of the set - up.
3. Filtration.
4. Lighting and duration.
5. Substrate.
6. Co2 dosing or Non-dosing.
7. Fertilizers used + Ratios.
8. Water change regime and type.
9. Plant list + When planted.
10. Inhabitants.
11. Full tank shot and surface.


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## arcturus (13 Feb 2022)

ZeeDeveel said:


> This is in my planted bowl, it's only about 3-4 weeks old so I was expecting algae but I don't know what this is and I'm worried that it's slowly gonna choke everything (...)
> 
> I don't have any flow except a few 1" fish and 3 cherry shrimp. I'm using Tropica ferts and liquid carbon. This is the bowl pre-algae...


A tank can experience algae in bacterial blooms during the first months after setup. If you have a small bowl without any external filtration then you need to be reduce the bioload to the bare minimum, otherwise the system might not cope with it. You need to provide more details about your setup, including the water change regime. At this stage you should actually be worried about the livestock, because a 3-4 week small bowl without filtration should have plants in it, not fish.


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## ZeeDeveel (14 Feb 2022)

GHNelson said:


> Need more information!
> Dear Member
> Please give as much detail as possible regarding your aquarium set-up, when requiring advice/help!
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying and I realise that's why I didn't get much response to this thread but I really just wanted an ID on the algae. I didn't think all this info would be required for someone to recognise the type of algae from a picture? I'll happily use the search function to figure out the solution if someone can tell me what this algae is.


arcturus said:


> A tank can experience algae in bacterial blooms during the first months after setup. If you have a small bowl without any external filtration then you need to be reduce the bioload to the bare minimum, otherwise the system might not cope with it. You need to provide more details about your setup, including the water change regime. At this stage you should actually be worried about the livestock, because a 3-4 week small bowl without filtration should have plants in it, not fish.


I've followed MD Fishtanks procedure on YouTube, he's done several bowls like this with fish in cycling. I changed water every day for the first week, slowly reducing it, I'm currently changing 50 percent every 3 days. I've got a thick substrate layer, for biofiltration, much is made up of inert gravel, there is some aquasoil and a thick layer sand to reduce leeching... And as you can see the bowl is heavily planted including floating plants.


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## GHNelson (14 Feb 2022)

Hi
There are thousands of algae species....your images are not that clear!
I don't think its algae but bacteria growth/mold which creeps....it mostly comes from new wood.
The floating plants look as though they have been filtering detritus from the water column....take some out and rinse some out in a fresh bowl of water!
hoggie


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

ZeeDeveel said:


> I get what you're saying and I realise that's why I didn't get much response to this thread but I really just wanted an ID on the algae. I didn't think all this info would be required for someone to recognise the type of algae from a picture? I'll happily use the search function to figure out the solution if someone can tell me what this algae is.


The reason why "all this info" is required is because it is often quite hard to identify the type of algae from a picture without any context about the tank, and even harder to understand what caused it without knowing the details of the setup. In short, without "all this info" you will only get guesses. If your goal is only a visual match then you can <start here>.



ZeeDeveel said:


> I've followed MD Fishtanks procedure on YouTube, he's done several bowls like this with fish in cycling. I changed water every day for the first week, slowly reducing it, I'm currently changing 50 percent every 3 days. I've got a thick substrate layer, for biofiltration, much is made up of inert gravel, there is some aquasoil and a thick layer sand to reduce leeching... And as you can see the bowl is heavily planted.


Afaik, MD uses mature substrate, gravel and hardscape from his other tanks in his new setups. So, he is actually not doing a classical fish in cycling. If you are using new substrate, then you are not using the same procedure as MD's. Having a heavily planted bowl does not mean you should introduce livestock right away. You will need to keep up with the water changes. Has MD showed the usual algae and bacteria that appear during the initial setup of a tank? These are often edited out so that new tanks are always algae-free and pristine...


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## dw1305 (14 Feb 2022)

Hi all,


ZeeDeveel said:


> much response to this thread but I really just wanted an ID on the algae. I didn't think all this info would be required for someone to recognise the type of algae from a picture?





Konsa said:


> pics are quite unclear so can't really comment on the algae but I will really be careful with Easycarbo as rapid melt on plants and their roots is often a result of misuse of such products in high concentration .I haven't really seen such plant melt due to algae yet in my experience.


I think we would like to help, but as @Konsa says it is difficult to be sure, but my guess from looking at the picture is that it isn't algae, it is "fungal" in the widest sense and that normally relates to damaged plant tissue . It might be from the EasyCarbo, or it might be a nutrient deficiency. 

Personally I'd turn the light intensity (and light period) back up, and that would at least allow you to exclude lack of light as an option. _Salvinia_ is adapted to <"full tropical sunlight"> and has access to atmospheric CO2, you aren't going <"to fry it"> whatever happens.


ZeeDeveel said:


> I don't have any flow except a few 1" fish and 3 cherry shrimp.





ZeeDeveel said:


> I've followed MD Fishtanks procedure on YouTube, he's done several bowls like this with fish in cycling.


Keep up the water changes because of the livestock, personally I'm not keen on <"sacrificial fish / in tank cycling">  and I would remove them. You don't need <"an ammonia source to cycle a planted tank">, so there really isn't any reason to potentially expose them to high ammonia levels. 

You also have the issues of no water movement and a <"large volume to surface area ratio"> which in both cases is going to limit dissolved oxygen levels in the bowl.

cheers Darrel


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## GHNelson (14 Feb 2022)

That foreground plant looks like Sagittaria subulata, which has been known to melt if using Liquid Carbon!


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## ZeeDeveel (14 Feb 2022)

At work now will give more info and a detailed response tonight. Forefround is Pygmy Chain Sword. Its the one plant which is doing really well.

Interesting point about fungi though Darrell I've got a lot of white fluff coming off the Mopani wood. I couldn't boil it as I didn't have a pan big enough and the consensus on here was it should be fine anyway. I have been wondering if the driftwood is the cause...


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

Woods often produce a bacterial or fungal film on its surface when submerged. It disappears on its own after carbohydrates and other nutrients in the wood are exhausted. Often this film causes no issues, but it can get out of control and the film can cover plants which will start to suffer. But it is difficult to see from your photos if there is such film in the wood and in the plants.


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## GHNelson (14 Feb 2022)

ZeeDeveel said:


> the consensus on here was it should be fine anyway. I have been wondering if the driftwood is the cause...


Nope not on this forum....you need to clean off any bacterial growth on any wood, or get  some  other form on inhabitants that will eat the  bio film/bacteria/fugal growth!.
hoggie


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## jaypeecee (14 Feb 2022)

dw1305 said:


> I think we would like to help, but as @Konsa says it is difficult to be sure, but my guess from looking at the picture is that it isn't algae, it is "fungal"





dw1305 said:


> Keep up the water changes because of the livestock, personally I'm not keen on <"sacrificial fish / in tank cycling"> and I would remove them


Hello @ZeeDeveel

I also suspect it's fungal.

And, yes, your livestock are very unlikely to survive unless you act soon. They are literally swimming in their own waste, which is toxic. At the very least, use an air pump and air stone to bubble some oxygen into the water.

JPC


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## ZeeDeveel (14 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> The reason why "all this info" is required is because it is often quite hard to identify the type of algae from a picture without any context about the tank, and even harder to understand what caused it without knowing the details of the setup. In short, without "all this info" you will only get guesses. If your goal is only a visual match then you can <start here>.
> 
> 
> Afaik, MD uses mature substrate, gravel and hardscape from his other tanks in his new setups. So, he is actually not doing a classical fish in cycling. If you are using new substrate, then you are not using the same procedure as MD's. Having a heavily planted bowl does not mean you should introduce livestock right away. You will need to keep up with the water changes. Has MD showed the usual algae and bacteria that appear during the initial setup of a tank? These are often edited out so that new tanks are always algae-free and pristine...


I tried the sticky to get a visual match but I don't see anything that matched it and judging by some reactions in here it's clear it's not obviously a common algae. I'm beginning to think Darrell is right and it's a mix of fungi/mould/detritus. MD only shows algae in tanks that he's neglected AFAIK and is doing a rescape video. YouTube is super misleading. I didn't have any mature substrate but I did use overdoses of bacterial starter (for what it's worth)


dw1305 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> I think we would like to help, but as @Konsa says it is difficult to be sure, but my guess from looking at the picture is that it isn't algae, it is "fungal" in the widest sense and that normally relates to damaged plant tissue . It might be from the EasyCarbo, or it might be a nutrient deficiency.
> ...


I'm happy to keep doing water changes every 2-3 days for the next month or however long it takes. In my defence MD Fishtanks says you need the fish in to cycle which is why I did it, he says without the fish the bacteria will starve.

Regarding light I think I will keep it reduced. As its a bowl its difficult to know how much lighting is appropriate, there aren't really any benchmarks out there but I know that this mould/algae/whatever was most prevelant where lighting was strongest and now I've reduced it, it's not so bad in those spots. I think the lighting is still adequate though I've got a 25w led 6500k bulb about 3 inches above the surface. I started with a 60w spotlight and have gradually tried less and less. I do like your duckweed methodology, but the salvinia was really struggling back when I had the lighting far more intense, lack of light isn't the problem. I can see this mould stuff killing it, new growth will sprout and look great then days later the roots are covered and the plant dies. 



arcturus said:


> Woods often produce a bacterial or fungal film on its surface when submerged... it is difficult to see from your photos if there is such film in the wood and in the plants.
> 
> View attachment 182671


I've scrubbed a lot of it off now so this isn't the best picture but it's the best I've got available. Hopefully you can see the white fluff on the wood which does seem to be attaching to the roots on the Anubias!


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## ZeeDeveel (14 Feb 2022)

GHNelson said:


> Nope not on this forum....you need to clean off any bacterial growth on any wood, or get  some  other form on inhabitants that will eat the  bio film/bacteria/fugal growth!.
> hoggie


I created a thread and several people said its most likely fine to put it in without sterilizing as I had no way of doing so. Then when I got this fungi most people seem to say just leave it and it will take care of itself but I am now diligently removing any trace of it. 


jaypeecee said:


> Hello @ZeeDeveel
> 
> I also suspect it's fungal.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'm beginning to suspect it'd the fungi too as it doesn't obviously look like a common algae and I had a lot of fluff growing on the wood. 

The fish seem fine tbh they've been in there for 3 weeks, no deaths, no weird behaviour and they stick to the bottom of the tank so not gasping for air. I will continue to do water changes every other day until the bowl is well established.


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## arcturus (14 Feb 2022)

ZeeDeveel said:


> I created a thread and several people said its most likely fine to put it in without sterilizing as I had no way of doing so.


The biofilm on the wood is a bacterial and/or fungal bloom caused by organisms feeding on the wood nutrients. "Sterilizing" the wood (i.e. boiling it) can remove a part of these nutrients, but not all. The goal of boiling the wood is not to eliminate this biofilm.


ZeeDeveel said:


> Then when I got this fungi most people seem to say just leave it and it will take care of itself but I am now diligently removing any trace of it.


Yes, it will disappear in due time. That does not mean you should skip maintenance and ignore the film. Moreover, nano bowls with fish and without any active filtering are not usual setups. You cannot and should not extrapolate guidelines that apply to tanks with hundreds of litres of water, external filters with high flow, along with plenty of water circulation and surface agitation to your tank. 


ZeeDeveel said:


> Thanks I'm beginning to suspect it'd the fungi too as it doesn't obviously look like a common algae and I had a lot of fluff growing on the wood.
> 
> The fish seem fine tbh they've been in there for 3 weeks, no deaths, no weird behaviour and they stick to the bottom of the tank so not gasping for air. I will continue to do water changes every other day until the bowl is well established.


I am not sure you will be able to skip the frequent water changes in such setup if you decide to keep fish in it. You can certainly keep shrimp in a similar tank, but the bioload resulting from the fish can be too high.


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## dw1305 (15 Feb 2022)

Hi all, 


ZeeDeveel said:


> but I did use overdoses of bacterial starter (for what it's worth) ......... In my defence MD Fishtanks says you need the fish in to cycle which is why I did it, he says without the fish the bacteria will starve.


You hear this a lot, but it <"just isn't true for planted tanks">. If you want to add a <"lot of Mbuna"> in one hit? you need a cycled filter, <"as soon as you have plants?">  You don't.   

Have a look at our <"thread with Tim Hovanec">


ZeeDeveel said:


> I've got a 25w led 6500k bulb about 3 inches above the surface.........lack of light isn't the problem.


OK, as you say that should be plenty of light. 

cheers Darrel


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## ZeeDeveel (15 Feb 2022)

arcturus said:


> I am not sure you will be able to skip the frequent water changes in such setup if you decide to keep fish in it. You can certainly keep shrimp in a similar tank, but the bioload resulting from the fish can be too high.


I don't mind doing regular water changes. It takes 2 mins on a bowl. 

When the tank is established I will monitor ammonia levels and see if I'm able to do them less frequently. I have come across several experienced aquarists who keep Nano fish in bowls without issue...but we shall see. Rest assured I will make sure the water conditions are appropriate.


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