# Take a deep breath...



## Rob P (16 Oct 2013)

Hey folks,

Sorry for this mammoth post but would just like to run it from the top 

My tank is absolutely no show tank, all I’m striving for at the mo is a nicely planted tank with lush/healthy growth and happy inhabitants. Next tank or a rescape will possibly be a little more adventurous 

So, let me get the main details in first:

Aquarium: Fluval Roma 125 litre, 80cm x 35cm x 45cm.
Filter/pumps: Aquamanta 800lph (spraybar outlet) and Koralia 900 nano pump.
Lighting: TMC Grobeam Ultima twin 6500K LED strips, retro fitted to existing T8 tube holders, through an Aquaray controller.
Heating: Hydor 200w inline external, tank temp: 26 deg C.
CO2: 2kg FE set up including solenoid, ceramic diffuser (under powerhead).
Substrate: JBL Aquabasis+ covered with Unipac sand

Lights are on 3pm to 9.10pm with a 30 minute sunrise/set cycle (so on dimly at 3pm ramping up over 30 minutes). These are currently running at 65% of max intensity. I have no idea what wattage these are equivalent too, I understand these lights give me ‘medium’ lighting. In the first 2 weeks I didn’t have a controller and the lights were on 100% in two blocks, 8am to 12pm, 5pm to 9pm. I am unable to elevate these due to fitment inside integrated hood.

Pressurised CO2 was only added little over a week ago and switches on at 1.45pm and off around 7.45pm. I’m still trying to get this dialled in right. I’ve never used CO2 before. The drop checker is a nice transparent green throughout the light cycle. I’m finding it hard to count a bubble rate as it’s quick! Possibly around 4+bps. Bubble distribution and flow appears good. From inaccurate liquid tests my PH looks to drop from around 7.4 to 6.7.

The tank was set up with initial planting and filling at the end of August. It ran for a week before filter media and fish were transferred.

About a week after that I noticed green algae growing on my redmoor wood. Treated with liquid carbon via pipette and it went. Ever since then I’ve been seeing what I believe to be diatoms (brown algae – dusty looking on leaves – does wipe off), BBA really covering the wood, on rocks/plants (particularly my low plants – Eleocharis sp. mini, Marsilea hirsuta & Hydrocotyle tripartita) and in the moss tied to the wood, closest to the lights (moss has hair/thread algae in it too). All this showed up before injecting CO2. I was dosing NeutroT and Neutro CO2 daily before injection, now I’m dosing Neutro+ and Neutro CO2 daily. Liquid carbon is currently 1.5 times recommended dose, ferts at recommended dose.

I’m performing a 45 litre water change every 3 days with a light substrate vac, trimming of really mucky leaves, glass cleaning etc. I’m able to scrub the BBA off the wood & rocks with a toothbrush thankfully so working round a bit at time. Plants a bit more of an issue. For example, HG has got significant BBA on it and I’ve cropped this a couple of times. I removed some of the Marsilea and cut off all black bits and replanted. It’s growing well but still developed black fur on the leaves again (BBA I presume).

So, where do I go from here? Last night I had yet another good cleanup and go at stuff with the toothbrush (as much as I could do in a couple of hours) and ditched some Hydrocotyle tripartita. It had mostly mucky leaves and isn’t growing how I expected anyway. I feel like pulling the HG up and really trimming it off and trying to replant what I can, same with the Marsilea. But it soon seems to get stuff growing on it again, incidentally these have really good flow pushing across them. Also feel like removing the wood completely (and removing sorry looking moss & anubias from it) and taking a pressure washer to it along with the rocks, but feel this will be in vain if the BBA just grows back.

I’ve got some Brazilian Pennywort which when underneath/close to the lighting bubbles away during lighting period. In a way I feel I’m devoiding other plants of light, but daren’t turn them up. Ludwigia glandulosa is growing really well, albeit with a few mucky leaves (but not as bad as some of the other plants). Some plants I have are classed as needing medium-high light which I’m pretty not sure they’re not getting.

I want to get more plant mass in there to help outcompete the algae, but feel like it would be lambs to the slaughter and throwing good money away! Last introduction was some Tropica Styrogene repens a week or so ago and it looks like it could have tinges of brown already but nothing major.

So, I’m trying to follow all the guides which read mostly the same. 6 hours light, lower light intensity, increased liquid carbon dose, extra circulation pump (added as soon as algae appeared), increased/regular large water changes and as much pressurised CO2 as I dare! It’s a real labour of love at the moment.

I do appreciate this has all happened in a short period of time, so do I just need to ‘calm down dear’ and sit it out for a while, or rip out everything I can, clean it and replace? Are there any other actions/advice you can offer me at this time to help move things along in the right direction?

Remember i'm new, so go easy!.... Now shoot!! 

Rob


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## krazypara3165 (16 Oct 2013)

im no expert but what is your filtration like? is it pressurised co2 that your injecting? (not a DIY yeast mix) and how are you injecting it (inline diffuser, standard diffuser) it sounds to me like the co2 is not reaching the bottom of your tank.


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## ceg4048 (16 Oct 2013)

Also there is about 500% more light than is needed. Diatoms occur when there is too much light.

Cheers,


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## Yo-han (16 Oct 2013)

I agree about the more light than necessary but diatoms grow in low light as well. Add some Otocinclus, they love it!


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## Rob P (16 Oct 2013)

krazypara3165 said:


> im no expert but what is your filtration like? is it pressurised co2 that your injecting? (not a DIY yeast mix) and how are you injecting it (inline diffuser, standard diffuser) it sounds to me like the co2 is not reaching the bottom of your tank.


 
Hi, this is all covered in first post.

Filter is Aquamanta EFX200 external filter rated 800lph water delivered to tank by spray bar along the rear. Flow/turnover suplemented by a Koralia nano 900lph circ pump.

CO2 = 2kg Fire Extinguisher pressurised cyclinder on regulator/solenoid. On/off times stated in 1st post. Glass ceramic diffuser placed near bottom under Koralia powerhead (about 5 inches above the diffuser), bubbles rise into powerhead and are then sucked in/distributed around the tank.



ceg4048 said:


> Also there is about 500% more light than is needed. Diatoms occur when there is too much light.


 
Can you make a suggestion based on this comment? I was told that lighting would be considered medium lighting on my tank (at full whack), so at 65% I'd assumed i'd be well below medium light levels! What effect on my plants that state they require medium/high light would turning them down lots more have? (i'm aware, or should I say I have read, that CO2 is more important than the light for growth?). If I turn them down to say 40%, do I need to reduce my CO2 injection? I'm not around through the day so like to make 'major' adjustments on a weekend when I am around to monitor.

Thanks for your replies 

Rob


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## Rob P (16 Oct 2013)

Yo-han said:


> I agree about the more light than necessary but diatoms grow in low light as well. Add some Otocinclus, they love it!


 
I have no more space for stock and otos not suitable for my water. I'm wanting to add a significant number of shrimp and some nerites to help clean up/maintain the tank but holding off doing this until i've got my hardscape clean and clear, just in case I need to remove it all which will be much easier/less stressful without having to dodge a load of critters!!


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## ceg4048 (16 Oct 2013)

Yeah, I would never use fish to solve an algae problem. You must fix the conditions that lead to poor plant health. Then the algae will go away.
Based on other folks who have had issues using powerful LED such as Growbeam, I would immediately drop the intensity level to about 20% in order to give the plants room to breathe. There are no plants that "require" medium/high light, so you really need to forget about that concept in order to help your tank to recover. Again. plants simply grow more slowly when the light intensity is reduced.

When you use high light, you must also use high CO2, but when you use low light you can use high or low CO2.
CO2 turns into food for plants, so more CO2 means more food and more health.

CO2 application is not simply a button that you press. It is a technique that must be mastered and monitored, especially if there are fish in the tank.

Follow the procedure discussed in the thread Melting Marsilea hirsuta & Staurogyne repens? | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Cheers,


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## Rob P (16 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Yeah, I would never use fish to solve an algae problem. You must fix the conditions that lead to poor plant health. Then the algae will go away.
> Based on other folks who have had issues using powerful LED such as Growbeam, I would immediately drop the intensity level to about 20% in order to give the plants room to breathe. There are no plants that "require" medium/high light, so you really need to forget about that concept in order to help your tank to recover. Again. plants simply grow more slowly when the light intensity is reduced.
> 
> When you use high light, you must also use high CO2, but when you use low light you can use high or low CO2.
> ...


 
Thank you Clive. I'll have a read through that. Lee doesn't live far from me (< 3 miles ), that's where my nice wood came from!!

I'll turn the lights down and monitor/adjust CO2 accordingly.

Would it be wise to get out of the tank what I can and remove as much algae as possible in the immediate?


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## John S (16 Oct 2013)

Yes Rob. Remove as much as you can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Rob P (16 Oct 2013)

John S said:


> Yes Rob. Remove as much as you can.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


 
Thanks, i'll be best getting the wood out, stripped of manky plants and pressure washed whilst 'relatively' easy to do so!


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## kirk (16 Oct 2013)

Hello Rob that was a long read  I was woundering why you are running at 26 deg? Is it your fish requirements? Nothing to do with algae just asking. Cheers Kirk


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## George Farmer (16 Oct 2013)

Hi Rob

Your current lighting sounds ok to me. The strips are 12w each, roughly equivalent to a 24w HO T5. Over 125 litres with good CO2, circulation, nutrients and maintenance, this is ideal lighting IME. I wonder if Clive is confusing your lighting with mine, as they are the same brand, just different units (12w strip vs 30w tile).


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## ghostsword (16 Oct 2013)

First thing that come to mind when I read about algae problems is too much light. So yep, I would reduce light intensity and period.. Then keep up with co2, which must be high enough when lights come on. Ferts galore. 

As plants become healthier I would then (if needed) raise the intensity and duration. 


___________________________
Luis 
@ghostsword


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## NatureBoy (16 Oct 2013)

you've made changes by adding CO2 and adding macros. This you've done in the last week or so? You could be dealing with a bit of turnaround time, how's the new growth? Is this attracting BBA, etc. The old leaves will always have the BBA attached, and without macros, I reckon your leaves were deteriorating in health, slow enough to leach a nice constant amount of nutrients to the BBA to latch onto - hopefully the switch to CO2 and macro dosing will have addressed the plants needs. Trim away the BBA affected leaves as much as poss and see whether the new leaves develop the same problem. Give it another week or so....


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## Reuben (16 Oct 2013)

Hi Rob 

I have the same tank and lighting/controller as you.  Also a full length spray bar and good flow Co2 etc...

My experience with these lights is that despite the rating in watts, theydo seem _*very*_ powerful to me.  I had loads of problems, and I know that the cause cannot be attributed only on the lighting, but...  Life got much easier when I dropped the output to 20%, plants started to get healthy, no algae etc...  Every time I think I've got things running well I crank up the out put to say 50% and things start to look bad again.  I'm finding 40% output with high Co2 levels is working fairly well for me now.


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## Rob P (17 Oct 2013)

NatureBoy said:


> you've made changes by adding CO2 and adding macros. This you've done in the last week or so? You could be dealing with a bit of turnaround time, how's the new growth? Is this attracting BBA, etc. The old leaves will always have the BBA attached, and without macros, I reckon your leaves were deteriorating in health, slow enough to leach a nice constant amount of nutrients to the BBA to latch onto - hopefully the switch to CO2 and macro dosing will have addressed the plants needs. Trim away the BBA affected leaves as much as poss and see whether the new leaves develop the same problem. Give it another week or so....


 
Guys, some great advice again, thanks to you all!! 

Yes there's been constant changes really which no doubt has not helped my cause. It's hard to tell reference the new growth. I think since running lights at 60% some of the algae has slowed down, i've trimmed some Ludwigia back a couple of times now over the last fortnight and the new growth and replanted stems look healthy and clean (and grows quick/new strong root within a week on cut stems). I pulled some Marsilea out and chopped off the black fur, that was shortly before CO2 and macro's went in. That's got a covering again. I think I need to get everything cleaned up so I can monitor going forward with the new ferts and CO2 in operation.

Can I ask, what's the view on bleaching/carbon bathing affected plants? I ask because if i were to pull the plants out and cut off affected leaves this is going to leave some stark looking plants, particularly the smaller stuff! Don't mind eaither way, but if I were able to to pull out the clumps of say Marsilea and dip treat them it would be quicker and retain more of the plant. Obv pointless if a dip method doesn't work. Have attached a pic of how some of it looks (this is probably as bad as it gets).



I'd just like to mention that the Marsilea in the picture is from a Tropica 1-2 Grow pot and actually arrived with a fair bit of black (stems) already on it. Assume this is down to the compact nature of how it is grown. Before planting I trimmed off the worst of it but couldn't remove all the black bits without seperating into many tiny pieces, which would go against the general instruction of simply washing off the jelly and cutting into a few portions ready to plant. Even in a Tropica leaflet I received with my plant order, their reference picture of a pot of Marsilea showed some brown patches so I figured this is just how this particlar plant comes.



Reuben said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> I have the same tank and lighting/controller as you. Also a full length spray bar and good flow Co2 etc...
> 
> My experience with these lights is that despite the rating in watts, theydo seem _*very*_ powerful to me. I had loads of problems, and I know that the cause cannot be attributed only on the lighting, but... Life got much easier when I dropped the output to 20%, plants started to get healthy, no algae etc... Every time I think I've got things running well I crank up the out put to say 50% and things start to look bad again. I'm finding 40% output with high Co2 levels is working fairly well for me now


 
1st hand experience, great!  How are your lights fitted Reuben? Into the hood in existing tube holders or do you have them suspended? Be interested to know what you've done! I do suspect it's not much helpful to have the lights a paltry inch from the surface of the water.

Turned mine down to 20% yesterday. Not as dim as I expected them to be lol, so hopefully this will move things forward in the immediate future. Just need a good cleanup now (oh the missus will be pleased!!!! )



Kirk said:


> Hello Rob that was a long read I was woundering why you are running at 26 deg? Is it your fish requirements? Nothing to do with algae just asking. Cheers Kirk


 
Yes it's to accomodate the fish I have mate, I could possibly drop a degree without probs. Would this help?

Thanks again, loving the inflow of useful information 

Rob


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## Ian Holdich (17 Oct 2013)

George Farmer said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> Your current lighting sounds ok to me. The strips are 12w each, roughly equivalent to a 24w HO T5. Over 125 litres with good CO2, circulation, nutrients and maintenance, this is ideal lighting IME. I wonder if Clive is confusing your lighting with mine, as they are the same brand, just different units (12w strip vs 30w tile).



I have to agree with this...I have used the same set up as you and didn't have any problems. I think you need to ensure flow, and nutrients are at a decent level. In most cases diatoms go on their own accord.


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## Rob P (17 Oct 2013)

Ian Holdich said:


> I have to agree with this...I have used the same set up as you and didn't have any problems. I think you need to ensure flow, and nutrients are at a decent level. In most cases diatoms go on their own accord.


 
Ian, was your lighting hood fitted?

Could anyone confirm that the ferts i'm using are ok? The recommended and actual daily doses of what I use in 125 litre are as follows:

Neutro+ = Rec: 10ml per 100L Actual: 15ml (overdosing of 20%)
Neutro CO2 = Rec: 5ml per 250L Actual: 4.5ml (overdosing of 80%)

I've seen various topics and posts about 'using enough ferts' and whilst it's easy to see that people often discuss 2, 3, sometimes even more the dose of Liquid Carbon, i've not actually seen anyone mention what 'enough' ferts is considered, 1.5 times dose, double dose etc?? I'm overdosing slightly on the grounds that i'm making sure I have 'enough'.

The diatoms seem the least of my worries and cleans away easily, the BBA is the beatch!

Rob


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## Reuben (17 Oct 2013)

Rob P said:


> 1st hand experience, great! How are your lights fitted Reuben? Into the hood in existing tube holders or do you have them suspended? Be interested to know what you've done! I do suspect it's not much helpful to have the lights a paltry inch from the surface of the water. Turned mine down to 20% yesterday. Not as dim as I expected them to be lol, so hopefully this will move things forward in the immediate future. Just need a good cleanup now (oh the missus will be pleased!!!! )


 
Hi Rob,
Yep tubes removed and two growbeams mounted there instead.  As you say, very close to water surface.  

I was just about to say that Ian Holdich (see previous post) used them too, but I think he had the grobeam 500's not the 600's, and that they were mounted over the tank (higher) on one of those brackets.  Is that right Ian?

I don't know what the difference in output between the 500's and 600's is but I suspect it might be high?  Anyone done PAR readings on them?  

This said it is my understanding that if other conditions are correct (Co2, flow, nutrients) then you can blast as much light as you want without any problems, right?


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## Rob P (17 Oct 2013)

Reuben said:


> I don't know what the difference in output between the 500's and 600's is but I suspect it might be high? Anyone done PAR readings on them?


 
30% according to Aquaray  Not that we are able to use it LOL


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## Andy Thurston (17 Oct 2013)

I use liquid carbon to spot treat bba in the tank . I use 2x recomended dose in a syringe and turn off filters while i do it


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## Rob P (17 Oct 2013)

Big clown said:


> I use liquid carbon to spot treat bba in the tank . I use 2x recomended dose in a syringe and turn off filters while i do it


 
I think if i were to clean up everything in tank using lc I would need a humongous volume and kill everything in there! Bit at a time would take too long keeping dose sensible. Could I remove and dip plants in neat lc solution for a minute or two before replanting without harm? There's areas i'll probably need to spot dose, such as the stuff tied on the wood (depending on whether I decide to remove the whole shebang for a thorough clean or not) and can do these over a few days.


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## Ian Holdich (17 Oct 2013)

Sorry, yes mine were the 500's, it would be interesting to get par readings. They claim to be brighter, and I agree the 600 are brighter, but this doesn't mean stronger light. Mine were about 6" from the water surface.


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## Reuben (17 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> There are no plants that "require" medium/high light, so you really need to forget about that concept in order to help your tank to recover.


 
@ Ceg 4048  Hi mate I don't doubt your expertise on the subject, but why do Tropica - whom I guess must also know a fair bit- advise that some plants in addition to Co2  do indeed need 'high light' to thrive?  Have a look at this for instance Tropica UK ny

It must be in their interest for people to have success and get more 'into' the hobby, so I'd have thought they would only give advice that helped achieve this?


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## ceg4048 (17 Oct 2013)

Well, you have to remember that the concept of high and low light is really quite poorly defined. Also, some plants stall under low light, i.e. they become "low light" plants that grow at a snail's pace. If you want to sell a plant that develops quickly and satisfies the customer then of course you will suggest high light to speed the growth. Again it should be clear in our minds that high light is OK if flow and CO2 are also high, but how often is this the case? People, especially newbies and those migrating from fish only tanks just can't wait to dump a bunch of fish in the tank and that limits what they are able to accomplish because they have zero skills at CO2 implementation and the fish suffer easily when the tank is incompetently dosed with CO2. They then always draw the conclusion that if the fish are suffering hypercapnia then it must be that there is plenty of CO2, so like lemmings, they add more and more light and the tank falls off the cliff. The situation is completely out of control because everyone thinks they are running the underwater equivalent of a cannabis farm.

The fact is that each plant has a property known as Light Compensation Point (LCP). This is the minimum amount of light that a plant can use to make carbohydrates. A plant operating at LCP intensity levels is only able to make exactly the same amount of carbohydrates as it's cells burn. If the light intensity falls below LCP the plant will starve to death. If the intensity is raised above LCP then the plant can manufacture excess carbohydrates and can therefore support a higher mass, so it grows.

A so-called "high light" or "medium light" plant does in fact have a higher LCP than a "low light" plant. This is indisputable.
What is in dispute however is how much higher is the LCP of a high light plant than the LCP of a low light plant?
Ferns, mosses and anubias can grow with as little light as 10 micro-moles or lower. They can practically grow in the dark.
On the other hand plants such as Glosso, Ludwigia or Hygrophila will have a high LCP, maybe 25 micro-moles or thereabouts. This is still pretty darn dim even if the LCP value is twice as high as for moss.

If you grow a high light plant under low lighting then it will automatically behave like a moss or anubias. It will grow painfully slowly - but the probability of melting and destruction is also proportionally low. If you apply high light to a low light plant then you need massive amounts of CO2, otherwise there is a high probability that it turns to mush.

But people don't want to hear about, or even look at a 25 micro-mole tank. It's too boring, so they pummel the tank with hundreds of micro-moles. That's when the trouble starts because plants also have a property known as CO2 Compensation Point.
You can probably guess that this parameter describes the minimum amount of CO2 required to make enough food to feed all the cells.
Naturally, it turns out that the plants which have a high LCP also have a high CO2 Compensation Point.
Unfortunately, as we well know by now, it's 10,000X easier to get lots of light to the plant than to get lots of CO2 to the plant.
Light has no trouble traveling through clear water. CO2 and ALL gasses have major difficulty moving through water.

So while the nurseries are correct in their labeling of the plants, in practice, it becomes a disaster.
Carbohydrates grows plants. Light allows the plant to make carbohydrates.
More light results in faster and more voluminous production of food.
So in a high light tank, everything happens faster, both the good things like growth rate, as well as the bad things like algae and nutrient deficiency.

Managing a planted tank and keeping it problem free requires understanding the relationship between these factors.

Cheers,


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## Rob P (17 Oct 2013)

I've started a major clear out this evening. Basically I've pulled out all the marsilea and cut away the black bits. It hasn't left me with much i can tell you!! but what is left and replanted is at least clean of algae. I've done what i should probably have done from the start and planted as individual stems (reading Georges one pot scape inspired me here  lol). Hopefully it will take and fill in if my corys don't uproot it all first. I've also taken some anubias off the wood, they weren't great. And given the HG a serious haircut. Still a few more issues to address and I'll probably have the wood out this weekend for a pressure wash.

So, someone please help. I've lowered the lights down to 20%, should i be doubling the ferts dose and keeping the co2 going strong with the low lights? The co2 rate hasn't been altered since lights were and the DC is still showing a nice green as of today and fish are ok. I've got a ph pen coming so i can take some accurate readings before during after lights.

Should i look to get some robust fast growing plants in to out compete the algae as I've removed quite a lot of plant mass this week which, to be frank, is making the tank look stark! 

Thanks,
Rob


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## ceg4048 (18 Oct 2013)

You're asking the wrong question. Plants cannot possibly compete with algae. That's why algae is eating your plants. Algae rule the planet and you should be glad of it.

There should not be a need to double the dosing unless you were previously only dosing half of what you should. This is a CO2 problem, not a nutrient problem. CO2 should remain high. Flow and distribution should be correct. This could be, after all, a distribution issue.
We do not know for certain because we have not seen any images or schematics of the tank configuration.

Get more hardy plants like the notorious ammonia eating weed Elodea nuttallii, or Old School favorite Egeria densa. They should be super cheap at any garden center or LFS and will fill in for now. Then you can throw them in the tip later an replace them with more boutique species.


Cheers,


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## Rob P (25 Oct 2013)

Things seem much better now, notably the tank is looking lots cleaner.

Have manually removed most of the BBA and just a few bits here and there, new growth seems unaffected and diatoms are all but gone. Maybe i've turned a corner...

I'll be rescaping the tank soon anyway but happier to feel more in control leading up to that point.

I did as much PH testing as I could yesterday for the first time and looked like this:

9.15am 7.4
11.40am 7.3
1.40pm 6.9
2.55pm 6.7
3.30pm 6.6
4.30pm 6.5
5.30pm 6.6
6.30pm 6.5
7.30pm 6.5
9.30pm 6.6
10.45pm 6.7

Lights come on at 3pm and ramp up to full (20%) over 35 minutes.
Lights start going off at 9.20pm for 35 minutes.
CO2 was on a 12.45pm and off at 7.30pm. Due to PH holding low til 10.45pm (well after lights off i've knocked the CO2 off earlier by half hour).

I think with current diffusion method and circulation I can't increase injection rate further without stressing fish. The DC is a nice lime green throughout the light cycle.

Does this all look positive??

Regards,
Rob


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## ceg4048 (25 Oct 2013)

Hi Rob,
		  That profile looks pretty good to me. It's still unclear how your distribution is, and that might explain why the fish become stressed with further injection rate. I'd continue the liquid carbon addition, and maybe even bump it up higher just before lights on to see if I could clear the remaining BBA. It should turn pink after a few days with 2X or 3X dosing. depends on what fish and plants you have in there though. If that's not feasible, then continued spot dosing as mentioned by Big Clown above will be the way to go. If you can drop the water level enough to expose the plant you can use the syringe or even a small paint brush to treat the tuft. Avoid getting the liquid on the leaf though.

Cheers,


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## Andy Thurston (25 Oct 2013)

A full blackout or just lights off for a "soft" blackout | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Heres a post i made about the amount i spot dose in my 35l. 

Fauna
5 ottos
4 amanos
10 cherry shrimp
2 peppered corys
1 bronze cory

2x8w t5  for 8 hours
2.5ml (3.5x) liquid carbon (tnc carbon)
3.5ml tnc complete(which I'm told is equal to EI nutrient levels) 3x per week
10x turnover
50% weekly water change

I wouldn't recommend more than 2x dose if you have/are breeding shrimp/fish, from the reading i've done this seems to stop shrimp breeding. 

I wish my 3.5x dose would totally clear my bba but at least it clears most of it and theres none on any of the plants


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## Rob P (25 Oct 2013)

ceg4048 said:


> Hi Rob,
> That profile looks pretty good to me. It's still unclear how your distribution is, and that might explain why the fish become stressed with further injection rate. I'd continue the liquid carbon addition, and maybe even bump it up higher just before lights on to see if I could clear the remaining BBA. It should turn pink after a few days with 2X or 3X dosing. depends on what fish and plants you have in there though. If that's not feasible, then continued spot dosing as mentioned by Big Clown above will be the way to go. If you can drop the water level enough to expose the plant you can use the syringe or even a small paint brush to treat the tuft. Avoid getting the liquid on the leaf though.
> 
> Cheers,


 
Thanks for calling back Clive 

I'm pleased with how the ph profile looks consistent throughout the light cycle.

I'm not convinced the fish are stressed, it's possibly my paranoia but I think my platy act a little bit lethargic and hover about the surface at times (not all the time). It could just be down to recently removing the large piece of wood and with it most of the cover. I also have a small shoal of Black Phantom Tetra, a shoal of P. Ivantsoffi Rainbowfish and half a dozen Sterbai corydorus, all of whom show no signs of distress and all fish feed happily.

This thread I posted here shows the layout of the tank:

REALLY need some inspiration  | UK Aquatic Plant Society

3rd pic down is the desolate state of things just now but as mentioned the tank will be undergoing a major rescape with the background coming out etc. The spraybar from the 800lph external runs along the top from the left hand side, about 2/3rds of the tank. The Koralia 900lph pump is on the left hand pane, aimed down and right (so pushing flow towards the front) with the diffuser 8 inches or so underneath so the Koralia sucks in the bubbles and distributes them. Weakest area of bubble distributon is therfore the right hand side of the tank (where the DC is) but my plants do sway a little in that area.

I went into LFS yesterday to order a spraybay extension and was advised against it on the grounds that it will kill the flow of the external. I'm also contemplating a larger Tunze 1800lph circ pump but would worry that's too fierce for my 80cm tank.

Again, when I rescape, if I can successfully get the background out I then have total freedom to move equipment around on the rear pane, which I don't currently have.

Thanks for the advice on the existing BBA. The worst of it is on the red rocks and should scrub easily (it's more visible under very low light so usually when I do maintenance with the lights on I miss quite a lot!), I thought it was BBA on the plants as well (I certainly did have some) but the dirty edging on some of the leaves does wipe off, again i'm working round these still 

Regards,
Rob


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## Rob P (25 Oct 2013)

I should add I'm dosing 5ml daily of Neutro co2, recommended dose is 2.5ml per 125l daily, so i'm at double dose already.


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## John S (25 Oct 2013)

Hi Rob, I've found that Rainbow fish are one of the first to get agitated in my tank with too  much CO2. So if they look OK that's a good sign.


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## Rob P (25 Oct 2013)

Good to know John, the Ivantsoffi are always up top anyway so would be hard to tell lol, but they're acting no differently


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## ceg4048 (25 Oct 2013)

Oh wow, you have a textured 3D background. I implicate them in the disruption of flow/distribution in tanks, especially in large tanks. I have no definitive proof however.

Yes, when you extend the spraybar, unless the filter has enough cojones, there will always be loss of velocity because the water and pressure have to fill a larger space. Adding pumps on the empty side will hello flow, but CO2 distribution, if being fed through the filter or  if mounted externally down stream of the filter output will be uneven. Still, that's a lesser evil.

The Tunze energy can best be used, if too strong to mount on the back wall, can be used on a side wall and the spraybar can be moved under it on the side wall. That way the strong flow has to travel along the length of the tank and will dissipate more easily. There are so many paths to flow distribution you just have to experiment.

Cheers,


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## Rob P (25 Oct 2013)

Ha ha, yes flow issues aside I've realised the internal background (albeit a thin one) is very limiting, thus it will be coming out. I also intend to upgrade external at some point and attempt the diffuser output into inlet of filter when i rescape. I concur it is trial and error with room for improvement.


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