zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Yes Trevor that's what I am looking mate. I tried this plant 4 time and it has always died after 3 weeks.
cheers
cheers
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Zanguli's NA 90x45x50
- Thread starter zanguli-ya-zamba
- Start date
Aquamaniac Fishtanks
Member
Ei dosing works. But I like to play safe. I always use a nutrient rich substrate. Why rely only on EI dosing when you can use both to achieve your results.
I think of it as my backup plan if I mess up my dosing.
Specially for carpets.
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Trevor Pleco
Member
Then try other options, after all you are currently planting them in just river sand in a new tank so you need to speed the enriching process up. Perhaps do a test, use some DIY tabs with say earthworm castings and osmocote under one portion of the HC and see how this goes compared to the non tab section, its's worth trying surely..
Aquamaniac Fishtanks
Member
Earthworm castings works. It's cheap and it's the most nutrient rich stuff I ever used.
And I agree with trevor. If what you are trying does not work it means you need to try something else.
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viktorlantos
Aquascaper
It's a myth. It is working well, but if you go with nutrient rich substrate and also refill the substrate with fertilizers you will see a very different growth than you would see only with water column fertilization.
There are small steps which gives you better result so why we say they are useless?
I never agree with people who go with half light at the beginning and turning the rest on in the next 2-4 weeks. Why? It's good for some algae protection, but very bad for the demanding plants. Then these plants starts to melt and stress and you will have algae anyway, but you will also loose your plants. Wrong strategy.
Just came back from ADA a week ago. We usually light for 7 hours per day on our high energy setup. They do 9 hours!!! And most of the lights were lowered not like yours up in the sky
More light speed up the growth. If you're dosing well the CO2 and the ferts then your plants will grow faster than algae. Yes you need a lot of plants to begin with and also the algae crew, but these speedie tanks usually have more success then just stressing the plants with low light etc.
Check this shot. It's me, but not the one who need to look at
Japan Tour 2013 by viktorlantos, on Flickr
Lighting is lowered. Many have grand solars on top which is not just HQI. And as i said 9 hours per day it's a lot of power no matter how weak is the ballast of the HQI.
Then there is the temperature. 27 celsius is not a friend of HC. Above 25 this tiny plant start to melt. The roots get rotted and fly out from the soil shortly.
You need to keep down the temp at max 25 celsius. Better to be lower.
So you need:
1. More light.
Lower your unit, and switch on the afterburners. You have 50cm deep tank you need very good lights and reflectors to make a nice carpet. Some cheap chinese 4 tubes unit (Odyssey for example) has HALF the light! then a good ATI one on similar power. Hard to tell how your unit fits in as i am not familiar with it. But if this is weeker you need to use it longer.
2. Colder water
3. Nutrient Rich Substrate
Your DC already yellow, but have you seen any of the HC plantlet pearling on the bottom? If not then something is wrong. Maybe your CO2 also and the carpet not get enough CO2.
HC is a bit*h
funny in some tank this looks very easy. Like in a nano tank where you have usually more light and CO2 than in a larger one. Like this:
Green Aqua Showroom | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
And some larger tanks temps usually higher because of the more heating, CO2 distribution to the carpet is harder, you need much more light on the carpet level etc.
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
So you need:
1. More light.
Lower your unit, and switch on the afterburners. You have 50cm deep tank you need very good lights and reflectors to make a nice carpet. Some cheap chinese 4 tubes unit (Odyssey for example) has HALF the light! then a good ATI one on similar power. Hard to tell how your unit fits in as i am not familiar with it. But if this is weeker you need to use it longer.
2. Colder water
3. Nutrient Rich Substrate
HC is a bit*h
Hi Viktor,
Thank you very much for your input mate
. This is very kind from you to take time to share this.1) I have turn on the 4 bulbs now, I will monitor the tank well (hope so) if I see CO2 problems I will up the CO2.
2) As I live in tropical environment, it is quite hard to keep the temps that low. Even during the dry season, when we have outside 22 to 26 C° the tank is never going below 26C°.
So temperature will be an issue for me !! S***t lol
3) I can add some JBL balls that I had received with my two CO2 set up. When I was in Thailand last year, I have buy some PENAC P, and during set up I putted a good mayer under the sand. Do you think this could help ?
4) HC is a B***h --> I totaly agree with that hahaha. And we can add to that bi**hs corner CO2 lol
Does Glosso have same temperature problem like HC ? maybe I can switch to Glosso if it doesn't work.
Cheers my friend and thanks
Zanguli
viktorlantos
Aquascaper
Glosso is much easier just need light. Or parvula. Marsilea easier and goes well in warmer temp too just slow.
I seldom pay attention to substrate and I don't have any problems growing HC and other carpet plants.
Here is HC becoming an invasive nuisance in ordinary LFS gravel, but with high water column dosing.
If the tank suffers poor distribution combined with excessive light then there will be an issue with foliar nutrient uptake.
A nutritious substrate mitigates this issue, especially if it is hypereutrophic like Amazonia.
If the plant suffers a nutrient failure then it would be obvious, because the syndrome of nutrient deficiency would be clearly expressed as discoloration or as nutrient-deficiency related algae.
So it's always better to have both a nutritious substrate combined with water column nutrition, but it is not imperative.
Here are some TGM images of a novel use of HC mounted on wood and never seeing substrate:
James had no trouble growing HC without a sediment. You can see the tufts of HC on the peaks of the wood. Check the TheGreenMachine website for the video on this layout called Nature's Chaos.
Therefore it cannot be that sediment is all important for this plant. People draw conclusions without understanding the underlying principles and without taking into account the other variables.
You will find more failed attempts at growing carpet plants when emphasis is placed on "demanding light" instead of on good flow, CO2 and distribution. Carpet plants do not demand that much more light than any other plant. They demand more CO2. They are simply a slow growing species which accelerate their growth rates under high light.
If, under high light conditions, CO2 demand is also satisfied, then the plant will fill in faster and will be healthy.
Viktor, algae protection is a more important imperative than fast growth. More tanks get destroyed by algae, and by an overwhelming margin, than they do by slow growth due to low light. That goes not only for the carpet plants, but for the tank as a whole. This particular tank is also at high ambient temperatures, which significantly reduce the CO2 solubility and availability.
It is therefore the combination of environmental stresses that are faced by the plant that determines whether it succeeds. In your ADA system, it is entirely possible that the nutrients leached from the sediment into the water column feeds the plants more directly than that of the sediment root hair interface, especially when the plant is first inserted into the sediment and has NOT developed the root hairs. Huge N-NH4 levels leeched by Amazonia can easily feed the plants at the foliar level.
Barr has already demonstrated that HC can be grown in low light CO2 enriched tank. So there are no myths associated with these principles.
Barr has also demonstrated that the ADA HQI ballasts produce less output than mainstream ballasts, which reduces the PAR vales substantially. These measurements were taken at the ADA galley itself. In fact, this was one of his pet peeves, that ADA overemphasize the use of high PAR when in fact their ballasts produce low PAR.
So one has to account for all variables in the growth/health equations. Suggesting that one component or parameter has more importance than another can be out of context, and can cause problems. If light intensity is so much more important than CO2, then try growing HC without any form of CO2 enrichment and see how far it can be taken.
Cheers,
Here is HC becoming an invasive nuisance in ordinary LFS gravel, but with high water column dosing.
If the tank suffers poor distribution combined with excessive light then there will be an issue with foliar nutrient uptake.
A nutritious substrate mitigates this issue, especially if it is hypereutrophic like Amazonia.
If the plant suffers a nutrient failure then it would be obvious, because the syndrome of nutrient deficiency would be clearly expressed as discoloration or as nutrient-deficiency related algae.
So it's always better to have both a nutritious substrate combined with water column nutrition, but it is not imperative.
Here are some TGM images of a novel use of HC mounted on wood and never seeing substrate:
James had no trouble growing HC without a sediment. You can see the tufts of HC on the peaks of the wood. Check the TheGreenMachine website for the video on this layout called Nature's Chaos.
Therefore it cannot be that sediment is all important for this plant. People draw conclusions without understanding the underlying principles and without taking into account the other variables.
You will find more failed attempts at growing carpet plants when emphasis is placed on "demanding light" instead of on good flow, CO2 and distribution. Carpet plants do not demand that much more light than any other plant. They demand more CO2. They are simply a slow growing species which accelerate their growth rates under high light.
If, under high light conditions, CO2 demand is also satisfied, then the plant will fill in faster and will be healthy.
Viktor, algae protection is a more important imperative than fast growth. More tanks get destroyed by algae, and by an overwhelming margin, than they do by slow growth due to low light. That goes not only for the carpet plants, but for the tank as a whole. This particular tank is also at high ambient temperatures, which significantly reduce the CO2 solubility and availability.
It is therefore the combination of environmental stresses that are faced by the plant that determines whether it succeeds. In your ADA system, it is entirely possible that the nutrients leached from the sediment into the water column feeds the plants more directly than that of the sediment root hair interface, especially when the plant is first inserted into the sediment and has NOT developed the root hairs. Huge N-NH4 levels leeched by Amazonia can easily feed the plants at the foliar level.
Barr has already demonstrated that HC can be grown in low light CO2 enriched tank. So there are no myths associated with these principles.
Barr has also demonstrated that the ADA HQI ballasts produce less output than mainstream ballasts, which reduces the PAR vales substantially. These measurements were taken at the ADA galley itself. In fact, this was one of his pet peeves, that ADA overemphasize the use of high PAR when in fact their ballasts produce low PAR.
So one has to account for all variables in the growth/health equations. Suggesting that one component or parameter has more importance than another can be out of context, and can cause problems. If light intensity is so much more important than CO2, then try growing HC without any form of CO2 enrichment and see how far it can be taken.
Cheers,
Trevor Pleco
Member
For a newbie why struggle, enrich the substrate unless you deliberately want the challenge or have a point to prove. If I plant my grass lawn in river sand only and then water or perhaps add some liquid ferts with it, yes it's going to grow.. but not as nicely and as compact than if I had added compost in the sand.
Sure I got HC popping up and growing all over the place without substrate, but if I was starting off and having problems with it and I wanted things to improve I'd enrich the new sand substrate, it's no brainer imo.
Sure I got HC popping up and growing all over the place without substrate, but if I was starting off and having problems with it and I wanted things to improve I'd enrich the new sand substrate, it's no brainer imo.
Well, the thing is that using an enriched substrate is no guarantee of success either. There are just as many people suffering problems with carpet plants when using enriched substrates as those who are not using enriched substrate.
Suppose the problem is CO2 related? Adding enriched substrate in that case will not make a difference. The fact that you have HC popping up in areas where there is no substrate means that substrate doesn't matter. The OP's tank is being dosed with EI levels of nutrients. That means sediment enhancement will not matter. The plants are not suffering a nutrient deficiency. That's the point. If more nutrients were needed then it is a simple matter to add more to the water column.
You can do a lot of things that won't make any difference. Why is that a no brainer? I've never needed to spend money on sediment enrichment. Increased water column concentration levels does exactly the same job, for cheaper....way cheaper. That's the other point.
Cheers,
Suppose the problem is CO2 related? Adding enriched substrate in that case will not make a difference. The fact that you have HC popping up in areas where there is no substrate means that substrate doesn't matter. The OP's tank is being dosed with EI levels of nutrients. That means sediment enhancement will not matter. The plants are not suffering a nutrient deficiency. That's the point. If more nutrients were needed then it is a simple matter to add more to the water column.
You can do a lot of things that won't make any difference. Why is that a no brainer? I've never needed to spend money on sediment enrichment. Increased water column concentration levels does exactly the same job, for cheaper....way cheaper. That's the other point.
Cheers,
pepedopolous
Member
Beautiful scape and I'm also really enjoying the debate going on here (sorry to hijack this thread!)
The thing is, even if you succeed in growing healthy plants with Victor's 'ADA' strategy of very intense light and a longer photoperiod, surely you will have lots more algae on the hardscape and glass?
In the ADA gallery or an aquascaping shop there is the opportunity to clean the glass and hardscape more regularly, even every day. However, for the average hobbyist, they only have time to do this once a week with the water change.
P
The thing is, even if you succeed in growing healthy plants with Victor's 'ADA' strategy of very intense light and a longer photoperiod, surely you will have lots more algae on the hardscape and glass?
In the ADA gallery or an aquascaping shop there is the opportunity to clean the glass and hardscape more regularly, even every day. However, for the average hobbyist, they only have time to do this once a week with the water change.
P
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
debate, that's what makes this forum so great.....
There is so much members that have a lot of knowledge here that you will alway have good debate and sharing knowledge here!!!
great to see that.
I think that Clive you have pointed the good things !!
But I don't know if I will or not continue with the 4x36w or the 2x36 w now. lets continue the debate to see what is said here.
guys thanks for this in my journal hahahaha
Hope others will add their stone in this.
cheers
There is so much members that have a lot of knowledge here that you will alway have good debate and sharing knowledge here!!!
great to see that.
I think that Clive you have pointed the good things !!
But I don't know if I will or not continue with the 4x36w or the 2x36 w now. lets continue the debate to see what is said here.
guys thanks for this in my journal
hahahaha Hope others will add their stone in this.
cheers
viktorlantos
Aquascaper
Low flow not true
You see the plants moving even on the carpet level in the largest tanks.
viktorlantos
Aquascaper
Light and CO2 is more important, thats why floating HC can grow quickly. So Clive is right on that.
zanguli-ya-zamba
Seedling
Thank you very much Pepe !!
No problem this is not a hijack for me ! you are just entering in the debate mate.
viktorlantos
Aquascaper
Is this really HC? Looks like HM to me.
On this tank. I see the success of the HC growing based on my points.
Very high light 4x150W halide HC planted on the rocks are even closer to the lights.
CO2 is on top with the external reactor.
Probably the shop has cooler temp, but i did not found any info on this. I guess the water temp is below 25.
So in this condition HC will show it's best form for sure no matter if this is planted in the substrate or on the rocks.
In substrate this would be quicker on growth.
Well i think we're talking about different thing here. Can be grown and grown quickly in its best form is not the same thing. A leggy HC is not the same like a low super dense carpet.
So the question is how quickly we need the carpet and in which form then. If this is does not matter, then sure many rules will be lighter. But if you go with speed and quality then better to stick with the optimal conditions.
Yes HQI of the Solar's ballast may be not so high like the best performers. But that does not mean it is a low light. It is a high light but not powerful. Even 80% of the best performers 150W ballast is strong enough.
However once you go with the Grand Solar where you have 2 additional PLs next to the HQI then the story is very different.
Based on the visit last week all i can say ADA is pushing the light limits very high. I am a high light guy, but i was surprised how hard they are pusing.
They put everything into one card which is a speed growth. They can't wait 4 months to have some nice tanks when the visitors coming frequently.
So once we see their progress with their philosophy and system we need to understand they are high light / power users mainly. Light in 9 hours with extremely lot of light. No purigen and no 300% water changes to keep the form, just regular algae cleaners, UV and NA Carbons with weekly 30% water changes and avg water temp is around 24-25 celsius.
CO2 was very high in every tank to balance the light.
viktorlantos
Aquascaper
Yeah we can call it basic
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
But high qual diffusers are equal to a CO2 reactor, or inline diffusers in efficiency just need frequent cleaning.
So ADA diffusers on standard size tanks in different sizes.
The giant 180*120*60 tanks the CO2 injected into the sump.
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I know approx how much CO2 needed to the standard sized tanks as we run them a while ago. But their bubble counters and injection was much higher than we would use. Same soft water everywhere. Not too much surface agitation.
The CO2 diffusers was on half height so not on the bottom of the tank. This could be also a reason to inject a little more, but these diffusers inject very fine bubbles so the CO2 is not leaving the water that quickly.
Probably for this reason it does not matter where you're using the diffuser in height.
180*60*60 with a 5cm ceramic diffuser
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
another 180*60*60
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
half height again
Japan Tour 2013 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
There were many new tanks what they did in summer, but i could not share them until they will be public later on. Many minimal tanks with amazing carpets including Micranthemum sp Monte Carlo, UG etc.
Ian Holdich
Member
Without highjacking Zinguli's thread even further, we do know that the higher the light, the more chance of getting an algae is higher. We know that amano himself also get algae in his tank. This is clear on vids, we also see his moss's not doing well etc etc. we need to be a little careful when explaining things that high light is not always the best way to start if you are not experienced in aquascaping/planted tank keeping.
