AverageWhiteBloke
Member
Excuse my ignorance but how far would Defra go to make sure the law was adhered to?
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Wipe Out
- Thread starter hotweldfire
- Start date
Hi all,
The DEFRA/FERA pages are here: <http://fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/> &
<http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0029:EN:NOT>
FERA have clamped down recently on imports which carried a human health risk <http://fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/tanzaniaFlowers.cfm>. This is the imported plants page: <http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/imports/index.cfm>.
cheers Darrel
&
I'd be surprised if this was of great interest to them, the Government keeps on chopping the DEFRA budget, and I'd be very surprised if the plant health inspectorate is in any position to comply with all the relevant EU law. Because these plants are likely to be free of any pests that might be of interest (Palm Thrips, Tobacco White Fly etc), and will possess a phytosanitary certificate, I would suspect they go straight through customs.
The DEFRA/FERA pages are here: <http://fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/> &
<http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0029:EN:NOT>
FERA have clamped down recently on imports which carried a human health risk <http://fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/tanzaniaFlowers.cfm>. This is the imported plants page: <http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/plants/plantHealth/imports/index.cfm>.
cheers Darrel
George Farmer
Founder
- Joined
- 21 Jun 2007
- Messages
- 6,741
Some very interesting, and quite disturbing info here. Thanks, Darrel.
I wonder how many others have lost shrimp due to contaminated plants that we're not aware of.
On balance as well, I do hope that as soon as some folk lose their shrimp, they don't automatically assume it's the fault of the plants.
Look out for a pinned topic soon.
I wonder how many others have lost shrimp due to contaminated plants that we're not aware of.
On balance as well, I do hope that as soon as some folk lose their shrimp, they don't automatically assume it's the fault of the plants.
Look out for a pinned topic soon.
ghostsword
Member
Great information Darrel.
It should make us think twice about what we buy and what we put on our tanks. 🙁
Looking forward to the pinned topic.
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It should make us think twice about what we buy and what we put on our tanks. 🙁
Looking forward to the pinned topic.
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AverageWhiteBloke
Member
That is what I suspected, I would imagine they have a lot more to worry about and as you say not the funding to check everything that comes in. Following this thread it seems there is mention of the chemicals possibly being in the plant tissue itself absorbed by the plants and released into the water through the natural process as it's growing. I don't know how far defra would look into something but I suspect they would be more interested in the species of plant rather than testing for chemicals within. Then there is the issue of what happens to plants when they get over here and how they are kept after being shipped in.
Would have been a very good post this if it wasn't for the loss of someone's hard earned pride and joy shrimp at the start. I for one never even realised that it could happen and will think carefully in future when selecting plants. Like another poster has mentioned it makes you wonder how many people have been affected by this and blamed the ppl they got the shrimp off or co2 asphyxiation, even Easy Carbo has been in the suspect list.
Frosties
Member
I agree, I know and can report that the plants do hit customs without physical inspection. Several times we have called defra to report illegal aliens in the packing crates.
For example, back in November we had to call defra following a spider infestation. September our fish came with an additional snake! Back in summer we got a massive spider as well!!!
We know when our plants have been inspected, the boxes are re-taped with a defra tape! Simple but we know then they have been checked. Sometimes our deliveries are late - when this happens it is because they have checked all boxes!
I have questioned this several times with defra and their policy is to randomly select several boxes from the cargo delivery to check. They openly stated due to budget and time they can't check them all every week.
I have read all the posts on this thread. I am willing to try charcoal filters here and will add them to the tanks this week. We have several kilos of charcoal available from our garra rufa stocks (which currently don't sell that well thanks to a bad report in a newspaper) and will be interested if that does make a difference.
As George says - I wonder how many incidents do go unreported. We certainly don't see that many (fortunately), although when we do it is usually large volumes that die before someone says something.
I am willing to work on this for the benefit of my company and also the benefit in knowledge to our customers that we do everything possible to remove any pesticides and insecticides.
I can say that to stock plants for upto 6 weeks would be impractical and not cost effective. I would imagine that would be the same for any other plant specialist.
For example, back in November we had to call defra following a spider infestation. September our fish came with an additional snake! Back in summer we got a massive spider as well!!!
We know when our plants have been inspected, the boxes are re-taped with a defra tape! Simple but we know then they have been checked. Sometimes our deliveries are late - when this happens it is because they have checked all boxes!
I have questioned this several times with defra and their policy is to randomly select several boxes from the cargo delivery to check. They openly stated due to budget and time they can't check them all every week.
I have read all the posts on this thread. I am willing to try charcoal filters here and will add them to the tanks this week. We have several kilos of charcoal available from our garra rufa stocks (which currently don't sell that well thanks to a bad report in a newspaper) and will be interested if that does make a difference.
As George says - I wonder how many incidents do go unreported. We certainly don't see that many (fortunately), although when we do it is usually large volumes that die before someone says something.
I am willing to work on this for the benefit of my company and also the benefit in knowledge to our customers that we do everything possible to remove any pesticides and insecticides.
I can say that to stock plants for upto 6 weeks would be impractical and not cost effective. I would imagine that would be the same for any other plant specialist.
Piece-of-fish
Member
I do agree that it is inpractical for the supllier to keep asian plants in quarantine as it is simply impossible.
I believe the suplier has to find the way to clean and make plants livestock safe with imidiate effect.
This is absolutely essential with shrimp on the rise. Otherwise you will have lots and lots of unhappy customers.
I believe the suplier has to find the way to clean and make plants livestock safe with imidiate effect.
This is absolutely essential with shrimp on the rise. Otherwise you will have lots and lots of unhappy customers.
hinch
Member
identifying the chemicals used to create a neutralising/binding solution would be the quick fix but the problem is if the chemical is absorbed into the plant then your shafted and if the supplier changes the chemical you're also shafted
Really sorry to hear this, I've never really thought that such a problem could exist with these plants.
I used plantedtanks for my initial planting, so I didn't have any livestock in there luckily.
I'll make sure to fully cleanse any new plants I get.
On another note, I just came across this thread on PFK. http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk ... hp?t=71907 Seems like this happens quite a lot! Shows a lack of information on plant sellers behalf.
I used plantedtanks for my initial planting, so I didn't have any livestock in there luckily.
I'll make sure to fully cleanse any new plants I get.
On another note, I just came across this thread on PFK. http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk ... hp?t=71907 Seems like this happens quite a lot! Shows a lack of information on plant sellers behalf.
ghostsword
Member
Great link. The thread discuss how many people kill their shrimps with purchases of plants and not quarantining them.
Quote:
"Always thoroughly rinse or even soak newly acquired plants before placing them in a shrimp tank. All plants entering the UK are treated as this is a legal requirement. Many shops don't know this. The treatment used WILL kill your shrimp! It won't harm your fish though."
So, is it on the responsibility of the supplier to place a note on their website? Yes, absolutely.
Is the suppliers responsibility to quarantine the plants? Of course not, they are cheap for a reason. If you are not prepared to quarantine the plants yourself buy in vitro plants, or use rocks and wood only. 🙂
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Quote:
"Always thoroughly rinse or even soak newly acquired plants before placing them in a shrimp tank. All plants entering the UK are treated as this is a legal requirement. Many shops don't know this. The treatment used WILL kill your shrimp! It won't harm your fish though."
So, is it on the responsibility of the supplier to place a note on their website? Yes, absolutely.
Is the suppliers responsibility to quarantine the plants? Of course not, they are cheap for a reason. If you are not prepared to quarantine the plants yourself buy in vitro plants, or use rocks and wood only. 🙂
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Although it stemmed from something I wish hadn't happened this has been very interesting and enlightening. I'm pretty new to shrimp keeping and planted tanks and hadn't fully realised how sensitive shrimp can be. I'd heard about shrimp sensitivity to copper so had started rinsing new plants in water + Prime but thats all and tbh a couple of recent purchases of moss from Malaysia didn't even get that! 
The more I read on here the more I realise how very fortunate I was not to lose my shrimp. I will be much more thorough in future!!!!
Viv
The more I read on here the more I realise how very fortunate I was not to lose my shrimp. I will be much more thorough in future!!!!Viv
hotweldfire
Member
Apologies for the late reply all. Have been flat out recently and decided no post was better than a rushed post.
I have to take issue with this statement. At no point have I said that my quarantine was very basic. All I said was that I could have left the plants under running tap water for an hour and I'm pretty certain that wouldn't have solved the problem. In fact in my email exchange with you, you said:
"You have performed good husbandry in the plants as a basic wash"
so I'm rather surprised to see the statement above from you in this thread. I went out of my way to be careful not to name you. It is your prerogative to come on here and name yourself but it is unacceptable for you to use that as an opportunity to misrepresent me in order to deflect the blame away from yourself.
Judging by the comments on this thread and the PMs I've got I think your suspicion is warranted. I expect this kind of thing happens a lot but at a lower level such that people don't feel sure enough it was the plants or don't feel comfortable making an issue out of it.
Can we try to get a bit of perspective here people? As I'm sure you're well aware, and as Tony has stated, the quarantine measures I undertook are more than the vast majority of buyers will undertake. In most cases those buyers will be fine because there won't be insecticides or copper on the plants. But one dodgy shipment and bang there goes all their livestock. If people like Ed and me didn't know about this risk what hope is there for the majority of customers?
I fundamentally disagree with you Luis. This is akin to saying you bought some new furniture for your house, your dogs chewed on it and died, but it's not the supplier's fault because the sofa was sold half price. It's your fault for not scrubbing the sofa before letting your dogs near it.
Given that what I did was not enough is it reasonable to claim that it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that the plants are safe? Seriously, are you suggesting that anyone who buys plants for a tank with shrimp in it should have it running in a bucket with a filter full of carbon and EDTA for a week with twice daily water changes before putting it in the tank? If buyers like Tony put this advice on their website do you think they'd sell even 10% of the plants they do now? Even people without shrimps would be put off buying from them. This is not the solution if the industry wants any hope of surviving. Not looking to pick a fight with you mate but I think you are plain wrong here.
Let me just make my position perfectly clear here - it is not my responsibility to make the plants safe, it is not the grower's responsibility, it is not DEFRA's responsibility. IT IS THE SUPPLIER'S RESPONSIBILITY. It may not constitute a legal responsibility given how lightly the industry is regulated. But it does constitute a moral responsibility and if the supplier does not want to ruin their reputation it also makes good business sense.
If PlantedTanks sold plants solely for emersed growth I would not have an issue with Tony. But they do not and it is their responsibility to take measures to minimise the risk to their customers' livestock. If this means elevated costs then they need to raise their prices and take the hit to their profit margins. The alternative for them is more forum threads like this. The word will get around and they will lose sales.
Ed says it better than I can. If not with immediate effect then quickly.
I know shops, mentioned by Paulo above, who will not sell plants coming in from the far east to customers with shrimp until they've quarantined them. Said shops have not gone out of business because of investing in those quarantining measures. Similarly, as Luis said ADC keep some cherries in the plant holding tanks.
I agree Tony that you can't quarantine for 6 weeks. You should be able to for 3 days and this might make the difference. I'm glad you're learning from this experience and trying carbon. I would suggest some tester shrimp (low end cherries would do) in a holding tank. Please keep in mind I didn't just lose high end crystals. I also lost most of my blue pearls which are relatively hardy and my amanos that have survived 6 years of minor disasters in this tank. They didn't survive this.
Frosties said:
I have to take issue with this statement. At no point have I said that my quarantine was very basic. All I said was that I could have left the plants under running tap water for an hour and I'm pretty certain that wouldn't have solved the problem. In fact in my email exchange with you, you said:
"You have performed good husbandry in the plants as a basic wash"
so I'm rather surprised to see the statement above from you in this thread. I went out of my way to be careful not to name you. It is your prerogative to come on here and name yourself but it is unacceptable for you to use that as an opportunity to misrepresent me in order to deflect the blame away from yourself.
Frosties said:
Frosties said:
Judging by the comments on this thread and the PMs I've got I think your suspicion is warranted. I expect this kind of thing happens a lot but at a lower level such that people don't feel sure enough it was the plants or don't feel comfortable making an issue out of it.
Can we try to get a bit of perspective here people? As I'm sure you're well aware, and as Tony has stated, the quarantine measures I undertook are more than the vast majority of buyers will undertake. In most cases those buyers will be fine because there won't be insecticides or copper on the plants. But one dodgy shipment and bang there goes all their livestock. If people like Ed and me didn't know about this risk what hope is there for the majority of customers?
ghostsword said:
I fundamentally disagree with you Luis. This is akin to saying you bought some new furniture for your house, your dogs chewed on it and died, but it's not the supplier's fault because the sofa was sold half price. It's your fault for not scrubbing the sofa before letting your dogs near it.
Given that what I did was not enough is it reasonable to claim that it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that the plants are safe? Seriously, are you suggesting that anyone who buys plants for a tank with shrimp in it should have it running in a bucket with a filter full of carbon and EDTA for a week with twice daily water changes before putting it in the tank? If buyers like Tony put this advice on their website do you think they'd sell even 10% of the plants they do now? Even people without shrimps would be put off buying from them. This is not the solution if the industry wants any hope of surviving. Not looking to pick a fight with you mate but I think you are plain wrong here.
Let me just make my position perfectly clear here - it is not my responsibility to make the plants safe, it is not the grower's responsibility, it is not DEFRA's responsibility. IT IS THE SUPPLIER'S RESPONSIBILITY. It may not constitute a legal responsibility given how lightly the industry is regulated. But it does constitute a moral responsibility and if the supplier does not want to ruin their reputation it also makes good business sense.
If PlantedTanks sold plants solely for emersed growth I would not have an issue with Tony. But they do not and it is their responsibility to take measures to minimise the risk to their customers' livestock. If this means elevated costs then they need to raise their prices and take the hit to their profit margins. The alternative for them is more forum threads like this. The word will get around and they will lose sales.
Piece-of-fish said:
Ed says it better than I can. If not with immediate effect then quickly.
Frosties said:
I know shops, mentioned by Paulo above, who will not sell plants coming in from the far east to customers with shrimp until they've quarantined them. Said shops have not gone out of business because of investing in those quarantining measures. Similarly, as Luis said ADC keep some cherries in the plant holding tanks.
I agree Tony that you can't quarantine for 6 weeks. You should be able to for 3 days and this might make the difference. I'm glad you're learning from this experience and trying carbon. I would suggest some tester shrimp (low end cherries would do) in a holding tank. Please keep in mind I didn't just lose high end crystals. I also lost most of my blue pearls which are relatively hardy and my amanos that have survived 6 years of minor disasters in this tank. They didn't survive this.
ghostsword
Member
I really understand your disappointment, and loss, but one needs to be subjective and fair.
You bought plants, you washed them and you placed them on the tank.
To use your example, had I bought a sofa, the dog chewed on it and died do you think that I could have any standing on a court to argue my case? Do you know any supplier of sofas that says that their items are safe to be chewed by dogs?
Did Tony ever said that his plants were safe for shrimp?
Had he said it then yes, he owes you money. But I do not think that he did, either because he could not be absolutely sure of it, or because he knew that they were not. I don't know.
Yes, you lost money and time on this. Yes, there should be a note like the one that Java Plants has. No disputing any of that, but you have to share the blame for this episode.
You bought the plants, placed them on your tank, without being fully informed of the issue they could pose.
Next time buy Tropica, or InVitro. InVitro are the only ones 100% safe for shrimp.
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You bought plants, you washed them and you placed them on the tank.
To use your example, had I bought a sofa, the dog chewed on it and died do you think that I could have any standing on a court to argue my case? Do you know any supplier of sofas that says that their items are safe to be chewed by dogs?
Did Tony ever said that his plants were safe for shrimp?
Had he said it then yes, he owes you money. But I do not think that he did, either because he could not be absolutely sure of it, or because he knew that they were not. I don't know.
Yes, you lost money and time on this. Yes, there should be a note like the one that Java Plants has. No disputing any of that, but you have to share the blame for this episode.
You bought the plants, placed them on your tank, without being fully informed of the issue they could pose.
Next time buy Tropica, or InVitro. InVitro are the only ones 100% safe for shrimp.
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ghostsword
Member
I know the above sounds too harsh, I do apologize, this is meant not at you directly, but as a lesson to all.
As Claus Christensen said, only InVitro plants are safe to use with shrimps, that should be the lesson to take.
Edis is strickly forbidden of getting any plants for his tanks!! 🙂
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As Claus Christensen said, only InVitro plants are safe to use with shrimps, that should be the lesson to take.
Edis is strickly forbidden of getting any plants for his tanks!! 🙂
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hinch
Member
unfortunately there's not a brilliant range of the invitro plants available compared to normal grown, hell even tropica's normal range dont have some plants which you can get from the asian suppliers. its a trade off and risk we have to take though
ghostsword
Member
If I had shrimp I would not take the risk. I actually do not think that rinsing is enough. 🙁
We just don't know what pesticides they use.
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We just don't know what pesticides they use.
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cheebs
Member
- Joined
- 16 Jun 2011
- Messages
- 103
Maybe suppliers of cheap asian plants should do a number of things.
I'm not sure i agree with your sofa analogy either saj 🙁 but I also dont think its that similar to this situation. As a dog owner, you have a responsability to control your dog when it puts other members of hte public at risk, but also a responsibility to keep the dog safe. If it was a dog toy you bought, that got ripped apart, and subsequently caused the dog to choke to death, then I would agree with you. It is the sellers responsibility to inform customers of the potential risks just in the same way that KP have to say "May contain nuts" on a packet of peanuts (or at the very least have a caveat in the Ts and Cs exhonorating the seller of his responsibility). He is selling these plants, marketed towards aquarists, and has a responsibilty not to mislead (deliberately or otherwise) any subgroups (i.e. shrimp keepers) about the safety of using plants in a particular environment by a lack of information.
- * Ensure people are aware of the risk thier plants could have to delicate livestock.
* Offer advice on how to effectively clean / quarantine the plants - maybe a factsheet
* Offer a shrimp safe alternative (i.e. pre quarantined stock - preferably kept in a holding tank with a few shrimp) at a small premium
I'm not sure i agree with your sofa analogy either saj 🙁 but I also dont think its that similar to this situation. As a dog owner, you have a responsability to control your dog when it puts other members of hte public at risk, but also a responsibility to keep the dog safe. If it was a dog toy you bought, that got ripped apart, and subsequently caused the dog to choke to death, then I would agree with you. It is the sellers responsibility to inform customers of the potential risks just in the same way that KP have to say "May contain nuts" on a packet of peanuts (or at the very least have a caveat in the Ts and Cs exhonorating the seller of his responsibility). He is selling these plants, marketed towards aquarists, and has a responsibilty not to mislead (deliberately or otherwise) any subgroups (i.e. shrimp keepers) about the safety of using plants in a particular environment by a lack of information.
ghostsword
Member
You are right mate, I think that Plants Alive is on the right path with the document they send with their plants..
Piece-of-fish
Member
Amen...
Just had another thought about a different scenario. Imagine the situation other way round.
Person sets up tank, gets plants and in a week or whatever when the rubish is still there buys shrimp to already infected tank. Whos reputation and because of who is under threat then? Food for thought.
Actually i think putting a note together with plants which will say very brightly about potential risks with invertebrates is a brilliant idea. That is what we also do what we post shrimp. Note how to acclimatise them and thorough description of shrimp species. Also a note on the description of plants would be good. Choose words wisely and correctly and it should not discourage customers to buy.
I agree with Saj that ' quarantine your plants with filter and daily waterchanges' is... Well...
Just had another thought about a different scenario. Imagine the situation other way round.
Person sets up tank, gets plants and in a week or whatever when the rubish is still there buys shrimp to already infected tank.
Whos reputation and because of who is under threat then? Food for thought.Actually i think putting a note together with plants which will say very brightly about potential risks with invertebrates is a brilliant idea. That is what we also do what we post shrimp. Note how to acclimatise them and thorough description of shrimp species. Also a note on the description of plants would be good. Choose words wisely and correctly and it should not discourage customers to buy.
I agree with Saj that ' quarantine your plants with filter and daily waterchanges' is... Well...
