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Will APFUK starter kit suit my needs?? 4 Month update with pics

Hi all,
I live in Wraysbury in Berkshire just in case you need that..........My water report has total hardness of 283ppm if that helps at all?
Useful, it just means that your water is pretty much fully saturated with Ca++ and HCO3- ions, and that <"you have about 16 dGH and 16 dKH">.
Ok salts i have available at home are-

Potassium Chloride
Magnesium Sulfate
Monopotassium Phosphate
Potassium Sulphate
Potassium Nitrate
Chelated Trace elements
I'd just use the <"Rotala Butterfly nutrient calculator"> (workings below four dosings a week to give you EI nutrient levels), all the salts will be on there. The <"UKAPS nutrient calculator"> will build on this basis, but include a lot more in terms of price comparisons, novel salts etc.
KNO3_Rotala.PNG

If you have a salt that isn't included, you can still work out its nutrient content if you know a few details:

You need to work out the percentage of the nutrients in each salt, using the RAM of each element and the RMM of the compound.

I'll do KNO3 (it is actually <"earlier in the thread">) because it is nice and straight forward and both cation (K+) and anion (NO3-) are of use to us.

For potassium nitrate (KNO3), the RAM of K is 39.1, N = 14 and O = 16 and the RMM of KNO3 is 101.1 Which means that it is 36% K and 64% NO3 (14 +(3 * 16).

When you've added 10g of KNO3 you've added 3.6g of potassium and 6.4g of nitrate. A litre of water weighs 1000g which is 10^3 milligrams (mg) and 10^6 micrograms (ųg), and "ppm" is equivalent to mg/L. This is the basic data that all the nutrient calculators use.

cheers Darrel
 
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@dw1305 Thank you for taking the time to look into that for me :) I've had a look at the calculators on here but if I'm being honest i cant make much sense of them!

@Zeus. Thank you, again! That wont have my tap water included in it though so will that cause overdosing problems? Darrel has said my nitrates out the tap are sufficient enough without needing to add more. Could i just leave that out of the mix or is it not that simple? Cheers for going out your way though matey.
New calculator is looking real good by the way, when is it going to be ready? I could really do with it right now!!

Sorry about the delayed reply guys, We've had all 7 children here today so its been a bit manic 🥱

Thanks all
 
Apologies for the treacle slow response.

I’ve had a good look at your water report here -

AffinityWater - https://www.affinitywater.co.uk/docs/Water_quality/water-quality-report-2018.pdf

Actual detailed report for Jan-Dec 2019 - https://www.affinitywater.co.uk/docs/water-quality/AF085.pdf

This is a breakdown list of the elements and their concentrations in your water supply that are important to plants.

KH 230ppm
GH (as CaCO3) 283ppm

Ca (Calcium) 113ppm
Mg (Magnesium) <1ppm (calculated from the GH)
NO3 (Nitrate) 31.6 / 35.5 / 40.5ppm
K (Potassium) <5ppm (not measured so referring to WHO document on potassium in drinking water) - https://www.who.int/water_sanitatio...guidelines/chemicals/potassium-background.pdf

PO4 (Phosphate) Not listed, Mean value per BGS 1ppm - https://www2.bgs.ac.uk/groundwater/dating/phosphorusIsotopes.html

SO4 (Sulphate) 55 / 66 / 84ppm
Cl (Chloride) 43 / 57 / 68ppm
Fe (Iron) <0.015ppm / <0.015ppm / 0.108ppm
Mn (Manganese) <0.0001 /<0.0001 / 0.0091ppm
Zn (Zinc) <0.01ppm (not measured so referring to WHO document on zinc in hard drinking water) - https://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/chemicals/zinc.pdf
Cu (Copper) <0.01 / <0.01 / <0.01ppm
Ni (Nickel) <0.002 / <0.002 / 0.0028ppm
B (Boron) <0.1 / <0.1 / <0.1ppm
Mo (Molybdenum) <0.0001 / - / 0.0005ppm (not measured so referring to BGS map for Mo in drinking water) -

https://www2.bgs.ac.uk/groundwater/health/molybdenum.html
276D8B25-31B3-471B-A2C6-23AE4094F13C.jpeg


Other Elements of note -

Na (Sodium) 25.4 / 33.6 / 42.9ppm
Al (Aluminium) 0.0074 / 0.0264 / 0.0479ppm

Here is the British Geological Survey data for your region.

ED67EA7E-E435-4F22-A520-04D4DC7B0949.png

https://www2.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/download/england/berkshireMap.pdf

As you can see the bedrock is almost entirely Chalk, hence the lack of Magnesium in the water and the resulting hardness.

I listed the sodium concentration because if your water does have less than 5ppm of Potassium then the plants are going to have a hard time finding it and may be up taking sodium to transport elements in its place, this has already been noted above with the pinhole deficiencies on leaves suggesting lack of Potassium.

I also listed the Aluminium content only because it is a hallmark for water remediation to remove heavy metals (addition of Aluminium Hydroxides to flocculate heavy metals out of solution), mainly Iron and Manganese because they both stain laundry, manganese in particular makes water taste foul when it’s concentration is above 0.05ppm. You can see the evidence for this with consistently low trace metal values for the Minimum and Mean being less than a total amount and the Maximum being at a level either indicating the water is without remediation or it is a breakthrough value above what can be moderated for by addition of flocculants and chelates.

Now we know what we are talking about let’s start making suggestions on how you can make your water more nutritious for the plants.

Firstly the Magnesium which is nearly void from the tap water needs to be elevated to a level that allows it to be always available for the plants, but to what level should you aim for. Plant tissue levels for Magnesium are around 3:1 Ca:Mg, the Solubility for MgCO3:CaCO3 is around 10:1, Interstitial soils that have water flowing over them from a Calcium and Magnesium based geology usually results in a level of around 10:1 Ca:Mg in the soil available to plant roots (this is not exact and there is huge variations depending on the underlying geology). You can chose anywhere between the lower 10:1 Ca:Mg value to the upper value 3:1 Ca:Mg to ensure that there is moderate to abundant levels of Magnesium in the water.

For Potassium (K) as evidenced by deficiencies there is not enough in the water and this needs to be elevated also, to what level is easily answered by referring to the level of Sodium (Na) in the water which has a Mean value of 33.6ppm, plants don’t differentiate when it comes to uptaking elements and to give it a 50:50 chance of uptaking Potassium rather than Sodium I would immediately elevate the Potassium Value in the water by a minimum of 30ppm. This value is also around the 1:1 NO3:K value suggested further up the thread (K can be much higher than this without issue, I have dosed in excess of 100ppm over the week in the past before deciding on more nuanced remineralisation that reduces this closer to the 1:1 ratio).

For Phosphate levels again they haven’t been measured but the BGS document above states over 95% UK water is moderated to around 1ppm of PO4 to protect against erosion in the water distribution network particularly if there is Lead (Pb) present. You can test for the levels if you wish but it will be uptaken by plants fairly quickly or be precipitated out by the interaction of added Iron (Fe) from the Traces, either way you can choose to dose an amount so there is at least always some present and not allowed to bottom out to zero leading to halting plant growth.

For all the other Micro trace elements (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Ni, B, Mo) that are present in the water at all levels then the addition of the standard dose of APFUK Micro Trace Elements is non problematical. You will come nowhere near close to any toxicity issues (Magnitudes above the levels you will see), don’t skimp the dose, dose as per recommended to tank size.

If I were to have one problem with the Trace elements then that would be that the EDTA (the chelate) compound for Iron will very likely be unstable and have a short half life due to the pH of the tank which will be around neutral to above neutral pH most of the time (discounting addition of CO2 during the photoperiod, also the other elements are good up to a pH of around 9)). You would be better served by supplementing the dose of Iron to an amount by using a longer period half life chelate for use at higher pH such as DTPA or EDDHA. Alternatively you could do the opposite and use a chelate that is very short lived but long enough lived to give the plants what they need that day such as Ferrous Gluconate (I personally use a mix with Fe Gluconate and FeDTPA in water around KH/GH 8-10 that spends all day above neutral pH (including CO2 injection to 30ppm). The FeGluconate source I use is Microbe-Lift Plants Fe (available from Maidenhead Aquatics).

Before we get on to the numbers I’m going to make some suggestions as to how you dose all the missing major macro elements. If your tank was my tank I would be adding the dose for the Magnesium and Potassium in one go at water change every week from a dry salt. Initially I would add the whole dose for the total volume for the tank to raise Magnesium and Potassium to the required ppm levels, then at every 50% water change add half the same doses again to replace what is removed. In essence what you are doing here going forward is remineralising the water to make it more complete and suitable for plant growth without deficiency.

I know you want it dosed as a liquid but there is such a deficit with Mg and K to begin with that it would be impractical doing it as a concentrated liquid (10L dosing container maybe, 1L maybe not), besides starting from a base value any extra small addition of K or Mg via supplemental dosing to remediate plant uptake will reduce the likelihood of accumulation of these elements or of a dosing accident adding a catastrophic amount of Mg raising hardness to a point that it will be problematical for all sorts of reasons. Doing it this way means that your water hardness will remain fairly consistent from week to week.

You’re Macro dosing liquid may contain levels of Magnesium and Potassium (via Magnesium Sulphate, Potassium Phosphate and Potassium Nitrate (dosed depending on levels of Nitrate from fish waste from feeding)) that will provide an amount of extra nutrition that may or may not be sufficient to account for plant uptake (depends on how heavy the planting is, how bright the lights, how much CO2 , etc etc etc).

Now to the numbers, I’m going to use 300L as the total tank volume assuming that any hardscape and substrate you have in the tank will be displacing the water volume in the filter (30L).

Water Change Remineralisation Dose -

Magnesium (Mg) - This is the only element where you can choose to have a large variation in how much you dose depending on what ratio you want in the water as I mentioned above and if you choose to supplementary dose throughout the week.

I suggest at the very minimum would be to immediately remineralise the water to a ratio of 10:1 Ca:Mg and then supplementary dose throughout the week an extra 10ppm of Mg on top to give you a total 20ppm and 5:1 ratio for Ca:Mg (not accounting for uptake). Each 10ppm addition of Magnesium Sulphate is going to raise the hardness of the water by just over 2.5dGH, the first 10ppm dose immediately then the second 2.5dGH rise from the other 10ppm spread over the rest of the week.

The Maximum I would do (what I do with my Bucephalandras) would be to remineralise each week to a ratio of 3:1 Ca:Mg and take the dGH rise immediately in one go and then not dose any supplementary Magnesium throughout the week allowing the Mg levels to fall over the week through uptake and then replaced back with every 50% water change through the addition of 50% the initial dose to keep it in line with Ca:Mg ratio, eventually through uptake the 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio may vary slightly but hopefully both are uptaken at the same time, a couple of back to back water changes before remineralising again would reset the ratios back to where you began.

Okay these calculations are for the Heptahydrate of Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O) I’ve just been calling it MgSO4 so far, if you want to know what Heptahydrate and Water of Mineralisation you can go watch NileRed purify some and drink it! -




I’m going to spare you the calculations and just give you the numbers rounding out the weights to whole numbers of Grams for ease. Here are the two options I’m giving you, the first should be enough the second is rich!

  1. To raise the concentration of Mg (Magnesium) in 300L of water to 11.18ppm (near 10:1 Ca:Mg) add 34g of MgSO4 to the tank. This adds 2.58 dGH and 14.74ppm Sulphur (S) to the water. Supplemental dosing of Mg above this value works out at 3g per 1ppm of Mg added to 300L of water (0.23 dGH and 1.3 S)

  1. To raise the concentration of Mg (Magnesium) in 300L of water to 33.53ppm (near 3:1 Ca:Mg) add 102g of MgSO4 to the tank. This adds around 7.74 dGH and 44.23ppm S to the water. (No supplemental dosing through the week)

Potassium (K) - No special considerations other than to match or exceed the water Sodium (Na) level.

To raise the concentration of K (Potassium) in 300L of water to 34.96ppm (near 1:1 Mean Na:K ratio) add 20g KCl (Potassium Chloride) to the tank. This adds 31.7ppm Cl (Chloride) to the water.

Remember this is an initial dose to raise levels, every water change you will need to replace these minerals at a rate of 10% weight for every 10% of 300L in water changes.


EI Alternate dosing strategy -

Now that you have remineralised the water to a greater degree you now need to add the Macro dosing for Phosphates along with any supplemental dosing for Magnesium (Minimal Mg route No1 above only) and any extra Nitrate (to be decided by yourself as to how heavy fish stocking and feeding is replacing NO3 uptaken by plants from the initial pulse at each water change, loss of greening and pale leaves would be the symptom of deficit, quick greening would be a positive indicator for this on addition of more NO3).

Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) - To raise the concentration of PO4 (Phosphate) in 300L of water by 1ppm requires 0.43 of KH2PO4 (dosed 3x per week satisfies the conditions for min to max recommended EI level 1-3ppm per week) it will also add 0.41ppm K (Potassium) per dose. 3ppm PO4 per week over 3 doses would be 1.29g per week also adding 1.23ppm K (Potassium).

Magnesium Sulphate (MgSO4.7H2O) - To raise the concentration of Mg (Magnesium) in 300L of water per 1ppm of Mg added requires around 3g MgSO4.7H2O. This adds 0.23 dGH and 1.3ppm S (Sulphur) to the water. To raise Mg in the water by around 10ppm overall in the week (dosed 3x per week) requires 31g MgSO4.7H2O (Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate). This adds 2.35 dGH and 13.44 ppm S (Sulphur) to the water.

Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) - To raise the concentration of Nitrate (NO3) in 300L of water by 1ppm requires 0.5g KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) to be added. This will add 0.23ppm N (Nitrogen) and 0.64ppm K (Potassium) to the water. For every extra ppm of NO3 required multiply the dose above accordingly. You will be dosing this to account for uptake of Potassium (K) and Nitrate (NO3). How much uptake there is depends on how well the plants are doing and how fed the fish are (if there’s any). I would probably add 10ppm overall over the week and adjust if need be, so that would be dosing 5g per 300L for 10ppm NO3 (Nitrate) and 6.4ppm K (Potassium) over 3 doses.

Okay we now need to bottle all the Macro into a concentrate that you can dose 3x per week as per EI (Estimative Index via Alternate Dosing) using the values described above. To prevent any issues with the salts precipitating in the dosing/storage container it is wise not to make a super saturate solution, Magnesium (Mg) may not play nice with the Phosphate (PO4) if it is in the mixture and possibly precipitate out. In order to prevent this the size of the dose you will be adding to the tank should be at least a minimum of 60ml per dose (20ml per 100L), 100ml would be better (providing it’s within limits for daily volume replacement for evaporation of water from your 300L tank).

Using a 5L storage vessel and using a 100ml per dose strategy will give you a 50 dose (around 4 months) supply of Macro. Enough time for it not to be annoying having to make liquid feeds all the time and short enough that it doesn’t go off in the bottle, going 30ml per dose will decrease the size of the storage vessel needed but increased chance of precipitation if you don’t take steps to try to prevent this by acidifying the solution first with Ascorbic/Citric acid.

The conditions for the possible formation of phosphate precipitates usually happen in an above neutral pH, in this mix it could potentially be a derivative of Potassium Magnesium Phosphate and Magnesium Ammonia Phosphate if the Potassium Nitrate has any Ammoniacal contamination. The solution I suggest for 100ml dosing contains a 1mM (millimolar) solution of Phosphate (PO4) if my math is correct, to have the potential for the above precipitates when mixing the conditions I have seen documented are [K > PO4 (3mM) pH>7], the mixture for your tank volume and a more concentrated 30ml per dose (10ml/100L) I believe exceeds the K>PO4(3mM) condition, the only caveat to this statement is that I’m unsure if these precipitation reactions happen when the Magnesium Sulphate is below its saturation point (suggested mix is at a concentration of 1/10th of Magnesium Sulphates solubility for saturation), however when mixing fertilisers in a bottle there is the possibility that all these conditions could be met briefly to some degree along the interface between these compounds meeting in solution depending on the concentration (all salts added to the storage container before the addition of water meet and exceed this criteria at initial mixing until there is enough dilution to stop any reaction). To mitigate the chances of this happening it would be best practice to ensure the Phosphate concentration when fully dissolved in the Bottling water is below 3mM before the addition of the other elements. For a mixture with the greatest stability I would suggest the order of adding the elements to the receiving water (slightly acidified and ensuring full dissolution before adding the next element) to be -

  1. Potassium Phosphate - (Solubility 22g/100ml)
  2. Magnesium Sulphate - (Solubility 113g/100ml)
  3. Potassium Nitrate - (Solubility 35.7g/100ml)

The weight of salts required to add to 5L of RO water for 100ml per dose to a 300L tank and their resultant concentration increase in parts per million ppm (1ppm = 1mg/L) to the tank total volume per dose is as follows -

21.5g KH2PO4
Per 100ml dose - [PO4 = 1ppm] [K = 0.41ppm]

506g MgSO4.7H2O
Per 100ml dose - [Mg = 3.33ppm] [SO4 = 13.17ppm] [dGH = 0.77]

81.5g KNO3
Per 100ml dose - [NO3 = 3.33ppm] [K = 2.10ppm]

Per week total addition (3 doses) =

PO4 = 3ppm
Mg = 9.99ppm
NO3 = 9.99ppm
K = 7.53ppm
SO4 = 39.51ppm
dGH = 2.31

For the option to acidify the receiving water before any addition of salts I would say 1g of Citric/Ascorbic Acid to 5L should be sufficient to keep the pH well below neutral.

That’s you Macro Solution taken care of.

I shall repeat some of what I said above for the the Trace elements and your Micro Solution for ease of dosing, follow the instructions provided by APFUK for making this with their Chelated Trace dry salt. Because of the hardness of your water and the likleyhood of an above neutral pH the majority of the time then the Iron will unbind with the EDTA chelate and over time precipitate out of solution with anything it can bind with, be that an oxide, phosphate or carbonate. The plants will tell you if they are deficient in iron by having pale/white new growth, if you experience this then you will need to compensate by adding Iron bound to a different Chelate that works in a higher pH such as DTPA or EDDHA as mentioned above or dose more of a shorter lived chelate that is more organically bound, highly plant available such as Ferrous Gluconate (Iron Sugar), you can get this most easily as a liquid supplement in the form of Microbe-Lift Plants Fe or alternatively Seachem Flourish Iron, I’ve not yet found an easier suitable source for the reduced cost DIY approach to Iron dosing, I believe there is Humic Acid in the Microbe-Lift solution which also acts as a chelate and as it is a long chain carbon molecule the plants get extra bioavailable carbon along with their Iron which isn’t a bad thing, I have never tried Seachem Flourish Iron (Ferrous Gluconate) other than when used as Flourish Comprehensive, it may also possibly have a Humic Acid content but I can’t be certain, someone else will need to post a description of the appearance of the liquid for me to determine this to save me throwing cash away on a bottle.

Hopefully all this information is of benefit and not just one extra long word salad.

:)
 
Hi all,
Hopefully all this information is of benefit and not just one extra long word salad.
No, that is definitely a proper answer, it must have taken you a while. I'm now expecting the rest of the forum to raise their game to at least this level.;)

cheers Darrel
 
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Hopefully all this information is of benefit and not just one extra long word salad.

'The Half Blooded Prince' detailed report - excellent work - bookmarked and saved ;)
Think X3NiTH has just rinsed the bar for detail 🥰
 
it must have taken you a while
Yup sure did! One third of a dissertation off the cuff over many hours the last couple of weeks! Would have made it look a little less cluttered in places but every time I tried to go back in last night after posting and tidy it up a little with extra line spacing here and there it would jump paragraphs past where I wanted to edit so left it as is just in case it deleted some of the body text by accident and I don’t notice!

'The Half Blooded Prince' detailed report - excellent work - bookmarked and saved ;)

Yeah crush the Sopophorous Bean don’t cut it, you get more juice that way!

:)
 
Yup sure did! One third of a dissertation off the cuff over many hours the last couple of weeks! Would have made it look a little less cluttered in places but every time I tried to go back in last night after posting and tidy it up a little with extra line spacing here and there it would jump paragraphs past where I wanted to edit so left it as is just in case it deleted some of the body text by accident and I don’t notice!
You sir are a legend! I can't thank you enough. I know you've had a lot going on too but you've still taken the time to detail all this for me, I appreciate that a lot 👍
I think I've read through this all about 6 times now so hopefully soon my brain will start the uptake of nutrients...sorry i mean knowledge!! Very much looking forward to getting this sorted in the next few days but be prepared for more questions!
Thanks again Darren 🙂
 
Morning all,
Just going through the thread again and making a check list. I'm short on Magnesium sulfate so need to put an order in.
For the option to acidify the receiving water before any addition of salts I would say 1g of Citric/Ascorbic Acid
I'm going to order from Aqua plants care as there service on last order was great. On there site they recommend to use E202 with E300, should I order this too? And if so how much do I add to the mix? 1g??

I told you they'd be questions 😆

Cheers
 
E202 with E300, should I order this too? And if so how much do I add to the mix? 1g??
Yes you should order that too.
I believe the instructions and ratios on that site is correct for E300 and E202.

0.5g of E300 for every 500ml of solution protects against growth of bacteria and lowers solution’s ph protecting against disintegration of compounds.
0.2g of E202 for every 500ml of solution impedes the growth of mildew and fungus.

So for 1000 ml (1 liter), 1g of E300 and 0.4g of E202
 
Morning all,
I’m in the middle of a WC and am about to start of the above advice. I’ve never put dry salts directly into the tank so I’d like some help please!
Is there a certain way of doing it or do I literally just sprinkle them into the tank?
I need to add 34g of magnesium sulfate and 20g of potassium chloride, shall I wait until the tank is full and sprinkle them into the filter flow?
Thanks in advance
 
I’ve just sprinkled some of the magnesium but it doesn’t seem to dissolve in the water. The crystals look quite big, shall I continue? Quite a few of the crystals are just sat on my Anubias leaves and the fish are trying to eat them!
I haven’t tried the Potassium yet but that looks super fine so I’m guessing that’ll be ok?
46BB4783-645D-43C0-AB4B-6A248CD2EF4A.jpeg
 
Hi all,
I’ve just sprinkled some of the magnesium but it doesn’t seem to dissolve in the water. The crystals look quite big, shall I continue?
They will take a while to dissolve, as you suggest it is size issue and means you have a much greater volume to surface area ratio than you would with a smaller crystal. It won't stop them dissolving, they will just take longer.

Volume is a cubic ^3 measurement, so a slightly bigger crystal takes a lot longer to dissolve. If you assume each crystal is a cube then the volume of a cube with linear length of one unit is 1 * 1 * 1 = 1, but linear length of two units is 2 * 2 * 2 = 8 etc.

cheers Darrel
 
You could have taken a cup of water from the aquarium and pre dissolved the salts beforehand but adding directly dry as you have done is not a problem, only issue as you saw were just a few confused fish thinking it was dinner time!

:)
 
@X3NiTH i thought about that, but after I’d added them to the tank...helpful right haha!!
I’ve mixed up the macro solution and I’m doing the micro when I get home from the school run then start the dosing tomorrow 😁
 
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