When to add fish!

[fredi]

Hi all,

That is mainly why I need to get some empirical values. A bit like @_Maq_ 's experiments <"Maq's experiment 23b">, you would need a control treatment.

The design is to use a horticultural fertiliser (containing ammonia) (possibly <"2:1:2">) for the different treatments, that would mean that the only variable would be the plant. I'd also add some dKH.

For the first run through I would just use water, fertiliser and Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium (Hydrocharis) laevigatum). Using a shallow dish would allow gas exchange and I'd could measure TAN in situ daily with an Ion Selective Electrode.

Further experiments could add <"a substrate">, a rooted plant, <"some leaf mold"> etc.

The problem with adding more factors is that replication rapidly grows out of hand. You would want at least 6 replicates for statistical purposes, and if you want to look at interactions (multifactorial experiments) that number grows very rapidly.

cheers Darrel

I got quite a bit of ammonia out of tropica soil (even after soaking for 3 months), 3ppm was measured before filters kicked in

 

[Bradders]

Basically a planted aquarium, with actively growing plants, will produce better water quality than an unplanted one.

Conterviosuly (Don't shoot me!) I think you can produce great water "quality" without plants—quality enough for fish to live and thrive.

That is, help establish and mature the tank... spark and accelerate growth of a healthy beneficial microbial community... which eventually is essentially what we qualify as a mature (or "cycled") tank.

There are plenty of non-planted tanks which maintain healthy fish. They were cycled without plants, and they have done well since, including maturing the filtration system to maintain healthy fish. (Full disclosure: My small aquarium was not cycled with plants; it was completely haphazard, to be fair! With plants added later and a spattering of fish at irregular intervals).

I guess to summarise (and I appreciate this is not the thread to do it!) I am totally vexed between the livestock and the plant world and how they do (or do not!) come together.

 

[MichaelJ]

There are plenty of non-planted tanks which maintain healthy fish.

True and I had many, many tanks with very few or no plants over the years...with healthy fish... no contradiction here. Without plants, it just consign all "bio filtration" (break down of ammonium, waste etc.) to the substrate and filter media.

Now that I keep densely planted tanks the “only” role for my filters (externally and internally) are to provide mechanical filtration (sponges), flow/nutrient distribution and aeration. Plants and substrate are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to “bio filtration”.


Cheers,
Michael

 

[AlecF]

I'm curious how having an aquarium that enormous affects the time cycling takes. My 100 litre has a vastly higher density of plants to water in comparison. Does the number of litres affect things?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I think you can produce great water "quality" without plants....There are plenty of non-planted tanks which maintain healthy fish.

You definitely can. If you look at the Aquarium Science web site <"6.2. Biofiltration in an Aquarium"> he successfully keeps fish at <"insane stocking rates">.

They were cycled without plants, and they have done well since, including maturing the filtration system to maintain healthy fish.

Ammonia based cycling is your best option if you don't have plants, there is some discussion in <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">. Plants just make things easier, it is back to probability, plants give you a greater <"probability of success"> in the long term.

cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

Thanks, Darrel - interesting thread! I feel like my tiny brain is expanding!

Do let us know if you ever get time to write that cycling guide. I think it would be a really great addition to the forum, and also help others.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thanks, Darrel - interesting thread!

It all started because I was pretty sure that the traditional view of nitrification, biofiltration and cycling <"wasn't right">. That was really why we started approaching "proper" scientists, many of whom have been <"good enough to reply to us">.

This was so that we could offer a much more nuanced (and informed) view of what actually happens during "cycling" in aquariums and aquarium filters.

Have a look at Tim Hovanec's article in <"Tim Hovanec's "Nitrification in marine aquarium" article">, because it is dealing with marine situations it is analogous to a non-planted aquarium and covers some of the history of nitrification. I've got a lot of time for <"Dr Hovanec">.

...... Dr Tim Hovanec* sells a product designed to help cycle aquariums, but again was happy to revise his products and advice in light of scientific advances <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">, but then you go onto to a forum and you read the same old, totally discredited, advice repeated time after time, and it really p*sses me off, because it is one of the things that is standing in the way of people having healthy vibrant aquariums that they can enjoy, rather than staggering from disaster to disaster.......

I was traditionally <"not a very good fishkeeper">, but good with plants, and I'd discovered that <"fish-keeping became a lot easier"> if you ignored the <"traditional advice from LFS etc"> and instead used the methods that are used for wastewater treatment (lots of oxygen, phytoremediation etc.). <"Really good fish-keepers"> can get by without plants, partially because they are <"really good at observing their fish"> and maintaining water quality.

I actually started writing the cycling posts before <"the DNA revolution">, which has allowed scientists to hunt for the genes for ammonia oxidation, and in a lot of cases these posts <"weren't very well received">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Bradders]

Thanks, Darrel - I am going to get reading! 🙂 I just love data!

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I just love data!

Have a look at <"Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) phytoremediation references">.

I have a lot of phytoremediation references, but I'm only updating the "Aquarium" related ones at present, this is because it isn't an area <"we are working in"> at the moment.

cheers Darrel

 

[ElleDee]

Hi all,

You definitely can. If you look at the Aquarium Science web site <"6.2. Biofiltration in an Aquarium"> he successfully keeps fish at <"insane stocking rates">.

Ammonia based cycling is your best option if you don't have plants, there is some discussion in <"Dr Timothy Hovanec's comments about Bacterial supplements">. Plants just make things easier, it is back to probability, plants give you a greater <"probability of success"> in the long term.

cheers Darrel

This might be a dumb question, but does this mean with effective filtration we can keep fully stocked tanks without being detrimental to the plants? I see it advised all the time to keep a conservative stocking to keep things "clean" to discourage algae, yet from a fish perspective a planted tank should be ideal for a heavy stocking because we have the plants and are often running large/multiple canisters as well. But I feel like I never see anyone running heavily stocked planted tanks, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place?

Also, has Mr. Aquarium Science classed up the joint in the last few years? I kind of wrote the site off a while ago because though it was interesting, it came off to me as some guy with some grudges and some pet ideas that may or may not be on to something. It didn't help that some of the plant stuff was just... not correct in any way, so I had to wonder about the other stuff I am not a specialist in. It looks like there have been some positive changes! Good for him. (I have not gone back to check the plant pages.)

 

[MichaelJ]

Also, has Mr. Aquarium Science classed up the joint in the last few years?

Aquarium Science always offered pretty good advice and insights on fish-only tanks as far as I can tell from what I’ve read on the site. Most of the controversy was/is about the planted tank advice. Yes, the site still comes across as pretty grudgy and self-righteous 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

 

[John q]

But I feel like I never see anyone running heavily stocked planted tanks, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place?

Lol, there are a few of us that keep fairly well stocked planted tanks, mines not an picture perfect advertisement for said combination but I know a man who has achieved success in that area.

GreggZ Planted Rainbow Tank!

I’ve been in the planted tank and Rainbowfish hobby for quite some time now. I was invited to come over and check out this forum, and have spent the past couple of days exploring the site. It seems like a very good group of dedicated hobbyists who hang out here. A few people I recognize and...

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Also, has Mr. Aquarium Science classed up the joint in the last few years? I kind of wrote the site off a while ago because though it was interesting, it came off to me as some guy with some grudges and some pet ideas that may or may not be on to something. It didn't help that some of the plant stuff was just...

I think there is "some" decent information on the site, but you have to sift through various nuggets of info that I'm personally not a fan of or how a lot of it is presented.
We have a thread of course.

"Aquarium Science" has some new planted tank articles

Hi all, have written a few more . They are the usual mixture of , but there were bits I really enjoyed, to quote. ......... Seachem makes a whole line of very overpriced and in many cases useless products for planted tanks. It is advantageous to look at each of these products........ cheers...

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[ElleDee]

Aquarium Science always offered pretty good advice and insights on fish-only tanks as far as I can tell from what I’ve read on the site. Most of the controversy was/is about the planted tank advice. Yes, the site still comes across as pretty grudgy and self-righteous 🙂

Cheers,
Michael

He also had/has a whole thing about how Prime and other dechlorinators cannot work and, look, I don't know enough chemistry to begin to have an educated opinion of my own on that. Most people don't. But I can't take such a big claim seriously without a lot of convincing and he didn't have enough credibility to move me an inch. I only read the filtration stuff because @dw1305 endorsed it.

 

[ElleDee]

@John q Yes, I know Gregg and his display tank is the one that comes to mind when it comes to maximizing both plants and fish. He's very meticulous and, um, I wouldn't put myself at his level (and runs a very different system than me besides), so I would love a greater breadth of examples.

 

[MichaelJ]

Lol, there are a few of us that keep fairly well stocked planted tanks, mines not an picture perfect advertisement for said combination but I know a man who has achieved success in that area.

Nice tank... somewhat overstocked IMO - Those Rainbows gets to be quite big. Too bad @GreggZ felt compelled to leave our forum and go start his own forum ... was it something we said?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
For those who want a fuller discussion, there is one in this thread <"Bio Media for Planted Tanks.">.

but does this mean with effective filtration we can keep fully stocked tanks without being detrimental to the plants?

I think so.

yet from a fish perspective a planted tank should be ideal for a heavy stocking because we have the plants and are often running large/multiple canisters as well. But I feel like I never see anyone running heavily stocked planted tanks, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place?

I think you probably need to look at Aquaponics to investigate the widest reaches of "acceptable stocking". If you look at the <"Aquarium Science web-site"> he keeps tanks where you <"physically couldn't have enough plants to complete nitrification">, even if you didn't have Mbuna, it is <"just a space issue">.

I kind of wrote the site off a while ago because though it was interesting, it came off to me as some guy with some grudges and some pet ideas that may or may not be on to something.

He is a <"very angry man">, some of it is just absolute (comic) gold.

He also had/has a whole thing about how Prime and other dechlorinators cannot work and, look, I don't know enough chemistry to begin to have an educated opinion of my own

Unfortunately I don't know enough chemistry either (@Andy Pierce ?), but he gives Seachem (and the Pondguru) an absolute verbal kicking. I'm pretty sure <"he is right about the Pondguru">, and Seachem have some <"very questionable advertising elsewhere">, so I'm going to cut him some slack.

<"He says">

.... Note I admit that I have a “chip on my shoulder” when it comes to Seachem products. The amount of misleading and downright false marketing hype that Seachem uses for ALL its products is just nauseating. And they have threatened me with a libel suit. I do not like being threatened. Just for information purposes one cannot be sued for libel or defamation if one simply tells the truth. Which I have done in all cases.......

...This ceramic media is heavily marketed by a YouTube guru called the “Pondguru” from the United Kingdom. If I want a laugh, I watch this snake oil salesman’s videos.

Aquarium Science always offered pretty good advice and insights on fish-only tanks as far as I can tell from what I’ve read on the site

I'd agree with that, and he obviously doesn't fear litigation.

I only read the filtration stuff because @dw1305 endorsed it.

It is so <"alien to the way I keep fish">, I don't have any practical experience, but I believe he is bona fide, and back to a picture being worth a thousand words, the Mbuna one would suggest that his method works.

cheers Darrel

 

[sparkyweasel]

traditional view of nitrification,

It makes me feel old when you call these newfangled ideas 'traditional'. lol 🙂

 

[John q]

so I would love a greater breadth of examples.

Quick search but I'm sure there are more.

"Fifty Shades of Green" - (1600 Litre Sanjarami)

I dont know what to call it, its too early and i think I will only get a real feel of where it is going when im in the tank, bruising my fingers and getting angry at the tree stumps. Hopefully I wont get too frustrated about it and it will manifest itself with ease... hmm. Sanjarami...well i...

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55 Gallon Community | Discus | Planted

Thought i would start this journal to put all the builds for my discus tank in one place and then continue with the current one i've just set up this weekend. So here is how the story has gone so far. 1st scape. I liked it but started getting frustrated with BBA and didnt have the skills to...

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[MichaelJ]

I'm curious how having an aquarium that enormous affects the time cycling takes. My 100 litre has a vastly higher density of plants to water in comparison. Does the number of litres affect things?

Not super duper sure what your asking… but yes, for long term stability size does matter… generally speaking, with the same plant mass/liter it’s somewhat easier to keep a larger tank stable as it will be more resilient to unavoidable fluctuations in water parameters, microbial health and general maintenance etc.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[AlecF]

I understand it's possible to keep a large tank stable, but when you start up a new tank which has such a vast quantity of water then the proportion of plants to water is much less than in a small tank, so I wondered if the 6 week rule might become 8 or 10 weeks. Or does the different ratio of plants to water not matter?