Whats the secret to keeping Red plants Red ?

[Guest]

I think light spectrum might be more important than once thought.

I've often argued that point...

 

[Oldguy]

Hi all, Plants usually produce the red anthocyanin pigments in high light situations, mainly to protect their chlorophyll from damage by excess sunlight. This is from Gould, K. (2004) "Nature's Swiss Army Knife: The Diverse Protective Roles of Anthocyanins in Leaves." J. Biomed Biotechnol. 2004(5): pp.314–320 I think @Oldguy & @zozo are right, because water is pretty effective at attenuating light, as you move away from the light source plants have less reason to become red. I don't know enough about the biosynthesis of anthocyanins to pass comment on which micro-elements may be effective, but it might be an iron (Fe) or copper (Cu) effect. Anthocyanins don't contain any iron (Fe) but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that high iron levels enhance red colouration in leaves, <"possibly by reducing PO4--- availability">.

If I was aiming to keep red plants red, I might try just lower nitrogen levels, purely because the anthocyanins are retained in the cell vacuole and if you have a lot of chlorophyll in the mesophyll layer it will mask the red pigments and the over-all appearance will be a dark green colour. The chlorophyll molecule contains four nitrogen atoms and <"leaf colour is a pretty good indicator of nitrogen content">.



This works with Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum), where high light, slightly nutrient deprived, plants develop red "tiger stripes".



You would have to balance plant growth and nutrient level (probably aim for "3" on the LCC chart above).

cheers Darrel

Interesting about Tiger Striping.

 

[Oldguy]

It's multifactorial and some plants are easier than others.

Light intensity
Light spectrum
Ferts - high iron and low nitrates

all play a role.

I think light spectrum might be more important than once thought.

Would it be worth while using' A' shaped glowlux type LEDs. The red would enhance the red of the plant by reflection and the blue higher energy light would be absorbed by the plant and may stimulate the the development of more anthocyanins as the plant becomes more stressed.

 

[zozo]

I've often argued that point...

There is a thread at AWF, from a member claiming that more red in the spectrum will produce more red in the plant. He tried to proof his theory with DIY light setups and experiments with extra red in it. This thread started over a year ago, but i kinda lost track of it, actualy lost track of the complete forum, didn't visit it at least for over a year. Anyway, if there were any results presented, they should be in by now..

I'll stick to white light anyway, not realy that much into red plants, there are enough 2 tone sp. around to have the best of both without much hassle.

 

[Oldguy]

I experience the same.. Quite some aqaurium plants have a red tendency if par values are met.. I experience this with aqaurium plants in the garden under the sun. For example Rotala indica turns deep dark red, Also see Bacopa sp. turns red in these conditions. Or Potamogeton gayi comes up red brown from the substrate up.

It also depends on the plant sp. and where it is grown. For example the Rotala indica under the sun, stays simply green when grown emersed and submersed it can turn deep dark red. But if you take a Lobelia cardinalis it does the oposite, emersed growth is deep dark red but grown submersed form it grows green. I'm far from the red plant expert, contrary actualy, i've grown very little red plants.. But doing some homework and choosing the correct sp. is a pre. We often get confused, since the majority of plants you see in the lfs are emersed form and sold with a lot of red.. But once transitioned to submersed form it reverts back to green. Example as given above with the Lobelia.. Not sure if the picture bellow is an acurate display or just misleading marketing, with placing an young emersed grow plant in aqaurium and take a picture.


I've grown this plant submersed under the sun and never seen it turn red, not even this dark green. In my experience the bellow pic is a much more realistic display about what to expect.


🙂

Interesting points about colour changes. In addition I often wonder about how accurate are the plant names used in the trade. Some plants of a given name colour well and others of the same name, while growing well, never match the colours in the literature. Is it that many water plants are very plastic in growth habit or is it that they form hybrids. ref the Potamogeton family.

 

[zozo]

Is it that many water plants are very plastic in growth habit.

I think that too, it is just hard to say what excactly is the cause.. Light only or a combination of factors, high light and fert availability vs other parameters.
I realy have no idea what it was.. But for the Rotala Indica i bought it like this

Grew it indoors as well as outdoors in both cases emersed and submersed.. It just stayed green while growing emersed.

The outdoor plant grew on submersed with shoots hanging over the pot.. All that was (partialy) bellow the water level looked like this.
It's the very same plant, with a complete different color and shape. Growing it indoors submersed it only changes form with a very faint pink hue at the tips. It never turned this deep red in the indoor tank, and regarding artificial light it was above average strong lights.

🙂

 

[Guest]

There aren't many papers on spectrum and growth morphology of aquatic plants, most are on commercial crops. I found this one some time ago it's not necessarily about how spectrum affects colour but it does suggest that spectrum does indeed matter http://www.apms.org/japm/vol15/v15p29.pdf

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But for the Rotala Indica i bought it like this

It's back to the names again, Rotala indica should have a single flower in the leaf axil, this plant has a branched scape. It is definitely from the Lythraceae, so I assume that it is really Rotala rotundifolia.

Growing it indoors submersed it only changes form with a very faint pink hue at the tips. It never turned this deep red in the indoor tank, and regarding artificial light it was above average strong lights

That could be an intensity, or a wave-length, effect. Day light is incredibly bright in the summer, and would have the complete spectrum (including some UV).

cheers Darrel

 

[ian_m]

This is a picture from last night, when I noticed one end of the tank was "reddish" rather than "greenish".

Tank is 180l, CO2 levels are "took ages to get right" green/yellow drop checker. Dosing x2 EI levels due to rather large plant mass. Lighting is 4 x T5 HO tubes (thus very high light). Light level is sufficiently high to get a pearling MC carpet 50cm away from light.

This plant is spectacularly red, but it is very near the surface, almost breaking out. Leaves not so red further down. Notice rather monster pearling on upper leaves nearer the light.


The red plants on the other side of the tank were "chopped down" last water change, thus further from the lights and are clearly not as red. Ignore the escaped wondering glosso, floating by.

 

[Edvet]

I guess you can see going red as "getting a tan" in humans, so only in "the sun" ( very high light). So dangerous situation unless everything works optimal

 

[a1Matt]

It's multifactorial and some plants are easier than others.

Light intensity
Light spectrum
Ferts - high iron and low nitrates

all play a role.

I think light spectrum might be more important than once thought.

^ This whole post is spot on IMO and IME.

I'm a fan of interpet triplus tubes and daily dosing of DTPA Fe.

The tubes can be a bit OTT by themselves (gives the water a pink tint), so good to balance it out with a white tube or two.

 

[ian_m]

This is what "the other chopped down side" has grown in 5 days !!! Getting redder as they get nearer the surface and light.

 

[ian_m]

Here is another red plant I keep, bit big for a tank. Only red for a couple of days in each year. This picture was two days ago, leaves were very dark red this morning almost black. Will all be on the ground in a couple of days.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Only red for a couple of days in each year.

That's an interesting tree, it looks like Fraxinus ornus, does it have an Ash like leaf?

cheers Darrel

 

[ian_m]

does it have an Ash like leaf?

Going on the Google pictures, yes Ash like leaf. They will all be on the ground shortly. Will try and get another photo tonight, as leaves are definitely darker.

The leaves drop like this, covering all the drive and bushes.

 

[ian_m]

View from upstairs windows last night. Definitely getting darker red.



Leaves look like this.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

View from upstairs windows last night. Definitely getting darker red.

Looks like <"Fraxinus ornus">. It should have a creamy flower earlier in the year? It is not a very commonly planted tree, on the original photo it looked like it was growing in a hedge, rather than a garden, which was why I was surprised.

You live in a sunny climate on the S. coast, but as you go further North they don't tend to colour up so well, and you just get a dull purple or yellow autumn leaf.

I was queing in the traffic on the Lower Bristol Road in Bath yesterday and I noticed that the two young trees (just towards town from the Twerton Railway arches, but before you get to Lidl, if any-one is a Bath Resident) are brilliant red this year as well.

cheers Darrel

 

[ian_m]

There are in fact three trees, all of them all in same'ish space, and 5 more at the entrance to my estate. Google earth & other satellite maps just show nice green trees.They were planted by the developers with small bushes around them. In the 20 years since planting the bushes, fir trees and gorse have got bigger underneath the trees.

One of the three (not seen in pictures, as it is behind) suffered a lightning strike and has split down its trunk and 1/2 fallen to the ground. Same strike also took out router, network switches etc in the house. Fallen boughs were chopped up me to feed my chimenea, although another bough fell recently.

 

[Edvet]

Lol was searching Google for what kind af animal a chimena was and how it ate trees.............................😛😀

 

[ian_m]

The leaf dump started yesterday....