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What exactly causes BBA?

Jose said:
Yes, But not strictly speaking a deficiency is when plants stop growing, or grow very slow, or show problems in the tissue etc. So if a plant is growing at maybe 70-90% then its mainly non limitted. If its growing around 30-70% it might be slightly limitted. If its growing at 0-30% this can be considered limitting. This is just an example to show that things are not just black or white. Numbers are not meant to be exact of course.
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Ok, so what I am getting from you guys is that the definition of "plant deficiency" is that a deficiency happens when the nutrients required by the plants fall below optimum levels causing growth retardation and other unwanted physiological and structural damage. Well that could be true. How would I know otherwise. I always presumed stuff gets depleted. I probably presumed wrong. My bad.

And this very much supports "my" totally unproven unscientific light theory, meaning there's a bottom light limit too and it's not as low as most think. And it does affect not just growth but causes visible physical damage and retardation that looks similar to nutrient deficiencies of other kinds, including stuff attributed to lack of CO2.

And see I am not a dosing guru. I don't know much about ppms of this or that. I totally don't care about this stuff at this stage of my aquatic life. If I see my plants not doing well, yellowing leaf here or stunted growth there, I observe and come to a conclusion which may be right or wrong. There are my tanks, my experiment. Then I use the big spoon to scoop ferts for the big tanks and the small spoon for the small tanks. I don't worry how much I added as long as I think I put enough scoops and I dose it right over the affected plants. Next week I may try more scoops if no improvement. If It doesn't improve in two weeks. I try other ferts. I do one at a time in order to learn myself. And that kind of works.
Due to the low levels of CO2, I aim at optimum growth and health for the conditions I provide without inducing algae. I am happy with that. If I have to show off or sell plants. Then may be my methods and knowledge will adapt to that too.
 
Thank you Ardjuna for your extensive answers, really appreciated! Ok, so, according to your explained concepts, the only parameter that in my tank could cause BBA are excessive nutrients in the water column. I dose EI, but I also perform water change every two weeks, so could be that nutrients builds up too much... Co2 is enough, stable, degas is ok so as flow. Nutrients could be the only thing to work on, I will try to reduce them a little and see. Thanks.
 
How did we get to this conclusion... The cause of BBA is excess nutrients?? *bangs head against wall*
 
Well I think whoever was open minded will go ahead and try for himself a couple of things and see how it all makes sense really. There are others who will still be like; we dont know anything about this because there isnt scientific data so magic is the way to explain it. Lets go buy some ADA products 🙄.
 
Reduce light intensity,increase CO2 a little bit,remove manually that BBA that you can,keep filters clean which will help reduce excess organic content trapped In/on filter material,continue with EI dosing scheme.
That's what I took from the rather nauseating thread and I am struck stupid by the OP's take on the matter so I shall refrain from any further effort.
 
I think EI is not for everyone.

Why? Cause some people cant/dont want to lower light more and cant/dont want to up co2. Not everyone has got very efficient co2 systems. In that case I would recommend yoju choose a method that limits Phosphates. But most "new schoolers" arent flexible enough to recommend this. EI is the only option for them.
 
Jose said:
There are others who will still be like; we dont know anything about this because there isnt scientific data so magic is the way to explain it.
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You rather like taking things out of context. Ok, I won't ask about scientific data. Back on the matter of your "CO2" deficiencies you've experienced in the presence of high phosphates and when limiting CO2 to 15ppm, can you supply us with at least a picture of your "stunted tips" results or of any picture that shows a CO2 deficiency of any kind whatsoever, with the background of how you applied the fix, etc...


fablau said:
Thank you Ardjuna for your extensive answers, really appreciated! Ok, so, according to your explained concepts, the only parameter that in my tank could cause BBA are excessive nutrients in the water column. I dose EI, but I also perform water change every two weeks, so could be that nutrients builds up too much... Co2 is enough, stable, degas is ok so as flow. Nutrients could be the only thing to work on, I will try to reduce them a little and see. Thanks.
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This thread must have been rather confusing. As mentioned above no one really said nutrients cause BBA.
Organics may based on empirical evidence. Additionally to what roadmaster adviced up the water changes frequency and amount and keep the tank and filters clean. Reduce feedings for a while.
 
Sciencefiction:

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/alternanthera-reineckii-dying.34859/page-4

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...-topics/6214-macrandra-defiency-maybe-calcium

Quite clear cases of CO2 defficiencies. I dont think I have pics of my own atm. Ill search for them.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...pics/14598-rotala-new-growth-tiny-and-twisted
Quite a nice clear pic in this last link. Basically plants seem to get smaller at the tips and curl.

This cases appear in UKAPs almost daily.
 
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The first link is about iron deficiency.

The 2nd link, response from OP: "
ERRR Ok hahaha Soooooo I fixed the problem by cutting down the light by half. I now use 2 T5's instead of 4, run for 8 hours. Since then, i've also switched to EI dosing, following
1/2 kno3, 1/8 po4 3x a week, 10 ML's TMG 3x a week and dosing ECA 6 drops a week with GH booster at the water change"
So it looks like he hadn't even dosed nutrients appropriately. I don't know how you concluded CO2 was the culprit for the deficiency.

As for the third link you posted, the OP hasn't come back to confirm whether he solved the issue or not and how. I don't know how you take these as CO2 deficiencies when you are not the owner of the tank and don't know how it was solved.

When I have deficiencies, I take pictures, before and after, and I know what I've done in between. So at least I can conclude something as I have a result.
 
That is because the Ops in those threads dont really know what co2 defficiency is so they look for other causes. Read Tom Barrs and Cegs answers. Dont believe them if you dont want but they have the most experience.

Also lowering light also lowers co2 demand, so its another way to solve the co2 defficiency.
 
Ok folks, to clarify: I know very well that nobody said that excessive nutrients may be cause of BBA (I hope to have computed words correctly), and I never believed that, but I am pretty desperate and don't know what else think. You should understand my conclusions after so many different concepts discussed here as well as my own experiments on this issue. If I overrule Co2 (I have tons of co2, 1.4-1.5 PH drop, 80ml/minute for a 75gl tank), its stability (co2 is stable for the whole photoperiod, I am sure of that, I use a co2 reactor, pressurized Co2 with high quality regulator, and Apex controller), I also overrule degassing (I have a wet/dry as well as strong surface agitation) therefore I overrule lack of oxygen, then flow (900gl/hr for a 75gl tank), just 7 hours light a day, 50 PAR at the substrate, and EI fertilization.... What am I left thinking? Why do I have BBA all the time?? If it is not due to excessive nutrients of some sort (hint: any sort of toxicity??), shoot your thoughts please.
 
fablau said:
(co2 is stable for the whole photoperiod, I am sure of that, I use a co2 reactor, pressurized Co2 with high quality regulator, and Apex controller)
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From what I've read around here, pH controllers are a poor way of regulating CO2 as there is a lag time between pH change and CO2 injection, so you just end up with it cycling on and off. Grasping at straws but it's worth a try sacking it off. The only way I'd use a pH controller for my CO2 is to cut-off if pH drops far below what I expect, due to some sort of failure (eg. if I expect 6.4 pH, I'd set it to cut off at 6)
 
fablau said:
What am I left thinking? Why do I have BBA all the time??
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That's pretty common I guess, plenty of threads over here... and this is why hobbyist try to look for other possible explanations (like it was intended initially in this thread). As far as I know you are not a newbie and you probably know already what is good flow, low-medium-light, you know how to deliver good CO2, you've done your pH drops, you got good filtering and good tank husbandry. And like you there are many others. This is why I believe that the answer cannot be: "less light, more CO2" "it looks ok but you must be doing something wrong". What really amazes me is that EI is in theory an easy approach (no testing, no accuracy, flexible with different setups, lights, etc.) but it looks that in certain conditions it is not so easy. Do we always have to blame the hobbyist? My guess is that, of course there are newbies that fail, but in other cases I have seen over the last 2 years here, it simply does not work, and the interesting about all this is trying to understand when and why it does not work (instead thinking that the different methods -EI or any other- are absolute truths).

Personally I can grow nice plants in very hard water and moderate light with the EI method (rich substrate, spraybar, inline reactor, DC yellow, +1 ph drop) (only some BBA when plant density is very high, restricted to some bottom leaves in the background), but when I use a lean fertilization method in this same setup, the presence of BBA decreases significantly. Additionally my conductivity goes from 1200 to 900 and the plants once trimmed do regrow much better. Is it this? No idea. Is it due to more phosphates promoting more plant growth that I cannot manage it properly (flow, CO2)? No idea.
Lately I have tried to grow the same plants but with softer water (500 microsiemens), my flow rate is also very good, but I don't use spraybar, no surface rippling, lights are more powerful, my DC is blue at lights on, I don't dose macros (but rich substrate) and... surprise, no algae at all (for the moment 😱).... and this is also pretty common I guess.

Jordi
 
Sacha said:
So, 245 posts later- what have we learned?
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To be honest after reading through all those pages (and I wish I hadn't bothered) is that one person with a website is trying to discredit another person with a website whilst continually promoting the aforementioned website which will give him very pleasing hit count numbers 🙂

I respect Tom Barr a great deal. I think its hard not to and he has helped many just as others with different ideas have helped many, but I don't use EI. I have in the past with no problems though.

I use only 700lph filtration on a 144 litre tank so that is under 5x turnover. Allied to that I have an inline heater and inline CO2 atomiser slowing the flow.

CO2 is circa 30ppm (lightish green) and I don't bother moving the DC.

I do roughly 30% water change on average bi-weekly (sometimes weekly, sometimes 3 weekly.)

I try and clean the filter and pipes thoroughly at least every 2 months.

I dose an all in one fertiliser daily if I get round to it but sometimes it can be a few days with no dosing.

Light used at the moment is 36W LED. Was 54W till a few weeks ago but growth was too fast.

The only algae I have in this whole tank is an area on the front glass, directly opposite the outflow Lily where there are a few tufts of BBA on a bit of driftwood and GSA on the anubia leaves in this section. No GSA on any other anubias in the rest of the tank, just this front right corner.

My guess is that a lot of detritus is forced into this corner because it is directly opposite the Lily and thus when the filter force hits that glass it is pushed down.

Any other conclusions? Not really. If I maintained properly I guess I wouldn't have any algae at all to ignore 🙂

And feel free to visit my website 🙂 I'm getting jealous.
 
Rahms said:
From what I've read around here, pH controllers are a poor way of regulating CO2 as there is a lag time between pH change and CO2 injection, so you just end up with it cycling on and off. Grasping at straws but it's worth a try sacking it off. The only way I'd use a pH controller for my CO2 is to cut-off if pH drops far below what I expect, due to some sort of failure (eg. if I expect 6.4 pH, I'd set it to cut off at 6)
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Of course I don't use the controller to turn on/of Co2 injection! I use it for logging purposes and for turning it off if anything goes wrong and PH drops too much. Thanks for your concern.
 
parotet said:
That's pretty common I guess, plenty of threads over here... and this is why hobbyist try to look for other possible explanations (like it was intended initially in this thread). As far as I know you are not a newbie and you probably know already what is good flow, low-medium-light, you know how to deliver good CO2, you've done your pH drops, you got good filtering and good tank husbandry. And like you there are many others. This is why I believe that the answer cannot be: "less light, more CO2" "it looks ok but you must be doing something wrong". What really amazes me is that EI is in theory an easy approach (no testing, no accuracy, flexible with different setups, lights, etc.) but it looks that in certain conditions it is not so easy. Do we always have to blame the hobbyist? My guess is that, of course there are newbies that fail, but in other cases I have seen over the last 2 years here, it simply does not work, and the interesting about all this is trying to understand when and why it does not work (instead thinking that the different methods -EI or any other- are absolute truths).

Personally I can grow nice plants in very hard water and moderate light with the EI method (rich substrate, spraybar, inline reactor, DC yellow, +1 ph drop) (only some BBA when plant density is very high, restricted to some bottom leaves in the background), but when I use a lean fertilization method in this same setup, the presence of BBA decreases significantly. Additionally my conductivity goes from 1200 to 900 and the plants once trimmed do regrow much better. Is it this? No idea. Is it due to more phosphates promoting more plant growth that I cannot manage it properly (flow, CO2)? No idea.
Lately I have tried to grow the same plants but with softer water (500 microsiemens), my flow rate is also very good, but I don't use spraybar, no surface rippling, lights are more powerful, my DC is blue at lights on, I don't dose macros (but rich substrate) and... surprise, no algae at all (for the moment 😱).... and this is also pretty common I guess.

Jordi
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So nice to know I am not the only one having these problems! And, yes, I am not a newbie, I have been playing with planted tanks since 1985.... Here is my tank, right now:

fb95ab5e1c0a906f7d3757dbb983449f.jpg

d17ba5af35bd6f56229078469df8ffbe.jpg

I can't complain, as I said, plants grow great, but BBA is always around...
 
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