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What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance

I suspect that it's the sunlight's UV rays that induce the production of phenolic and other compounds which inhibit algae and mold. That's one of the functions of UV light on plants. So the LED makers stating that UV light is wasted are complete BS.
 
Sorry guys, at work now. Definitely will look at your responses tonight.


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The explanation is... WITCHCRAFT!! :eek: That goes against everything we do in an indoor high-tech planted tank. No CO2, no filtration, no flow.. what else? No fertilisation?

I've read these threads with interest, and I think it does partly explain what's happening in one of my tanks, at least symptomatically. I do notice that in my 60L tank, BBA can be under control, not completely BBA-free, and then within a few weeks, it can start sprouting on hardscape and filter equipment. CO2, fertilisation, temperature (chiller) did not change. So its either the filter's getting dirty, or the tank itself is getting dirty or I did some trimming and there would be some amount of melt which all leads to the high organics theory. Usually a big clean - filter, pipes, substrate level, etc will bring BBA to a manageable level.
 
Goldfish respire a lot and produce a lot of CO2. How much? I don't know.

But, the lack of CO2 is not the cause of the lack of algae.
 
I have hillstream loaches (Gastromyzon). They graze on algae on rocks in very fast moving streams.

This is another extreme example that I should consider.

Not all algae is the same so the proposed model may be irrelevant.

Perhaps biofilm plays a much bigger role.


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About the video: there are lots of small fish and then 2 goldfish. I believe there is talk about fertilising in the subtitles, but my spanish/portugese isn't up to it. (I don't think the excrements of the fish will be plenty as ferts in this tank.)
No filtering, at least a few hours of full sunshine a day. There will be a lot of oxygen production in this tank during the day.
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Guest said:
lack of CO2 is not the cause of the lack of algae
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Non consistent CO2 is mentioned as a contributing factor to BBA though
 
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By my observations, overstocking->high organics does lead to BBA in particular. So I see the point of Andy here, BBA being dependent on B12 to grow surely relies on heterotrophic bacteria for production and high organics lead to more heterotrophs. That's what they do, "eat" organics for energy. Same as if you overfeed a shrimp tank, you get an explosion of shrimp/snails. I'd imagine heterotrophs could explode in numbers if there's lack of oxygen. As they are going to take over the surfaces previously inhabited by autotrophic bacteria, who in turn in low oxygen conditions would be dying in high numbers because of the inhabitable conditions, leading to more organics. So anything that shifts the balance towards high amount of heterotrophs could be an issue.
The most common is low oxygen and high organics.

With my limited knowledge I somehow thought BBA can utilize the organics, or rather the excessive ammonia which is the result of it, but it's the symbiosis with the heterotrophs perhaps that makes the connection between the two. And as Andy says, it's been proven. Most algae can't produce B12 and B12 is essential for their survival. So heterotrophic bacteria producing the B12 for the algae is a key for the survival of algae.

Diatoms, which aren't algae, are similar to heterotrophs in a way that they can live in the substrate doing other stuff but explode in numbers in high organic environment, and change their "functionality".

As for that tank without filtration and sunlight doing just fine free of algae, it's been done by people all the time. I think the sunlight is the key. As literature says, the higher light lowers the co2 compensation point and that works pretty well in low tech tanks. If you have low light and low CO2, worse scenario for the plants. Plants can get by well with lower co2 as long as they can get their energy from light.
Algae on another hand may not be as competitive in these conditions.

As for the fluctuating CO2 causing BBA. I don't think so. I think it's more about what dropping CO2 is doing to the plants when they are used to 30ppm +. They need to adjust all over again when you system or your flow isn't up to scratch and not distributing that CO2, thus plants suffer, leading to higher organics, lower oxygen levels while they do so.
In my low tech tanks, huge water changes with water saturated with CO2 has never triggered BBA. So I can't believe the argument of fluctuating CO2 triggering BBA.

Imagine if you are a human that's overweight due to overeating. One day if you stop feeding yourself 10 chickens a day, you are going to struggle and not feel well even if it's normal to actually not eat that much, even if you can perfectly function for life on 1 chicken a day. One day, after a long struggle, you'll eventually function just fine on 1 chicken a day.

So when you start pumping that high amount of co2, you are essentially getting the plants used to live on such amount whether it's optimal for them or not.

Anyway, that's my view. It may not be correct of course. It's just one of many views on the issue.
 
To add to the above, the problem I see with people not being able to keep plants in low tech tanks is that they follow the "low light" advice........ to avoid algae. Stock the tank with what they were told are "easy" plants such as anubias, moss and java fern. They plant too few plants, just scattered here and there, thinking it's lots.
They don't put any nutrient rich substrate as they "don't need" it for "easy" plants that are not even planted in the substrate. The tank gets overridden with algae, or plants just struggle. The first thing one is told is, to inject CO2, lower the light and do EI. That works of course, but it's not the only way and it's the hard way.

What actually happens is, plants like these are very slow growers. They can't stabilize a tank. They've got no roots in the substrate to provide medium for healthy oxygenated substrate which would develop a good balance of bacteria otherwise. And the substrate is probably the most important "filter" in a healthy system. As long as there are lots of plants in it, and the layer is not very thick to get anaerobic. it becomes one massive biological filter which no external or internal filter can match. It's way more stable because it doesn't rely on mechanics to pump water through it, loss of flow, etc.. And it doesn't get "clogged" as long as the bacterial load is balanced to keep things turned.
Also, more light in certain scenarios is not necessarily a negative and can be actually necessary in tanks with high biomass. And certain substrate types provide a massive advantage over others, even if just because of the properties of the particles they are made off. A natural soil substrate "holds" nutrients for the plants until they need them and is a better medium for "good bacteria".
We spend so much money buying fancy filter media and fancy filters but ignore the properties of the substrate itself as if it doesn't matter, thinking you can dose all you need in the water column. But you can't balance a tank by dosing the water column. The picture is bigger than that. It's bigger than just co2, light and nutrients. Starting from heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophs and all other organisms that make up the chain.

The tank above in the link is the opposite of all that "common" low tech tank scenario and is successful for that same reason.

Edit: My apologies for the long reply and swaying away from the topic.
 
This paper talks about the effect of reducing oxygen to increase the vitamin B12 output from an industrial process.

In a 120,000L fermenter, the dissolved oxygen level was reduced from 10% to 8% (20 to 48 hours), 5% to 2% (49 to 106 hours) and below 2%, by gradually reducing the rate of aeration and agitation. The concentration of vitamin B12 obtained (198mg/L) was significantly higher than one stage dissolved oxygen control.

They state that the low dissolved oxygen was favourable for vitamin B12 biosynthesis, but it would have a negative effect on cell growth. A multi-stage dissolved oxygen strategy could increase biomass but also improve vitamin B12 biosynthesis.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jctb.3804/abstract

This MAY provide evidence (weak) to support:
- reduction in oxygen due to overnight respiration or a bacteria bloom MAY lead to an increase in B12 production.
- oxygen is required for cell growth, but a reduction in oxygen favours B12 production
- does this imply that aeration inhibits B12 production
 
If it's the gradual decrease in O2 that aids in the production of B12, then wouldn't having a longer photoperiod allow for higher DO concentrations for longer periods of time?
 
This paper deals with controlling CO2 concentration in an industrial process using Pseudomonas Denitrificans and its impact on vitamin B12 production.

I've converted CO2 concentration in mmol/L to ppm by multiplying by 44 (i.e. 1mmol/L = 44ppm). Hope this is correct.

CO2 concentration resulted in vitamin B12:
CO2 0.001 mmol/L (0.044ppm) = 1,522 ug/L/h
CO2 1.16 mmol/L (51.04ppm) = 2,164 ug/L/h
CO2 3.05 mmol/L (134.2ppm) = 2,279 ug/L/h
CO2 4.81 mmol/L (211.6ppm) = 750 ug/L/h

This would suggest that increasing CO2 concentration in an aquarium may increase vitamin B12 production. The optimum (peak) CO2 concentration would not be reached.

http://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc...duction-by-fermentation-2155-9821.1000159.pdf
 
Guest said:
My interest is to reduce the frequency of water changes since it's wasteful to dump so much water each week. If there are ways to prevent it, that would be great
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In addition to all the great advice you get on this website, perhaps the following may help:

- Pay particular attention to remove all leaves that look stressed or damaged. Feed the fish less quantity. Buy shrimp. Scrub old driftwood. In general, take steps to remove organics that the heterotrophic bacteria can use as a food source

- Perhaps try running activated carbon for no more than 6-8 weeks, to remove organics from the water. Remove to prevent it becoming a food source for the heterotrophic bacteria.

- While I'm carrying out my water change, I've started putting my anubias on stones in a litre container with 3ml of Easycarbo and dechlorinated water (for about 15 minutes). This seems to be strong enough to effect the BBA, but not concentrated enough to burn the leaves. Remove all other infected BBA leaves to prevent spores being released

- Aerate at night. A few people feel this has a positive effect. In my opinion, this could be helpful to the autrophic bacteria (less ammonia) and may inhibit B12 production.

- Thinking back, this may be obvious. I used to have my lights timed to come on in the evening, so I could enjoy the aquarium when I came home from work. However, because the room my aquarium is in has a big window, I was effectively extending the photoperiod. I've set the time to be during daylight hours now.

- In mid summer, the sun swings far enough around that it hits the tank. I used to get worse BBA where the light was brightest. I now rest a piece of black card against the side of the tank, to mask out the excess light. ADA gallery has few windows. Difficult (unpopular) to achieve at home.

  • I wonder if limestone based rocks which slightly raise pH (e.g. ADA Seiryu or Ryuoh) may be serving a useful purpose (see Biocon Labs website):
  • Autotrophic bacteria prefer a pH higher than 7
  • Starting from a pH of 7 and adding CO2, which will drop pH, could put the aquarium in the autotrophic danger zone of 6.5 to 6.0.
  • The limestone can help to buffer the water
 
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I realise that for most of the people on this forum, the above is basic advice, but you asked Guest what I thought you could consider without performing large water changes.

One more point about plant choice and placement, ADA in their videos suggest if you are going to use anubias petite (plant prone to BBA), to put it in a shaded spot. Also, fast growing plants convert more CO2 to plant cells and release more oxygen than slow growing plants. If O2 is beneficial to autotrophic bacteria and may inhibit B12 production, then highly oxygenating plants may help (providing you provide sufficient CO2 and nutrients to support the rapid growth).
 
I've also noted that BBA is associated with potassium deficiency. This has occurred numerous times that I think it's not a coincidence. K deficiency may set in motion a chain of events which ultimately leads to BBA on Anubias (and possibly Bolbitis) leaves. It doesn't affect plants such as Rotala's and Ludwigia's, so perhaps Anubias and ferns require much more potassium than stem plants to be healthy.
 
Guest said:
I've also noted that BBA is associated with potassium deficiency. This has occurred numerous times that I think it's not a coincidence. K deficiency may set in motion a chain of events which ultimately leads to BBA on Anubias (and possibly Bolbitis) leaves. It doesn't affect plants such as Rotala's and Ludwigia's, so perhaps Anubias and ferns require much more potassium than stem plants to be healthy.
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I think you are correct when you say that a deficiency sets in motion a chain of events which ultimately leads to BBA. K deficiency would be one cause, put other people have reported resolving other deficiencies that have reduced a BBA problem.

I'd like to know more about how plants react if they are deficient in a nutrient and/or they are supplied with less CO2 (exposed to the same level of light).

Do they start to release specific organics (e.g. Cellulose or ATP) which the heterotrophic bacteria can use as a food source?

In the papers I've referenced previously, they've shown that algae secretes organics which the heterotrophic bacteria can feed off.

Plants releasing organics when exposed to high light and insufficient CO2 and enabling the heterotrophic bacteria to grow may be the link between high light and BBA outbreaks.

Perhaps anubias constantly secrete organics if exposed to bright light. Heterotrophic bacteria get a continuous food source. Thick bacterial biofilm pushed to the edges by turbulence. BBA spore sticks in biofilm. BBA close to source of B12.


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Guest said:
I've also noted that BBA is associated with potassium deficiency. This has occurred numerous times that I think it's not a coincidence. K deficiency may set in motion a chain of events which ultimately leads to BBA on Anubias (and possibly Bolbitis) leaves. It doesn't affect plants such as Rotala's and Ludwigia's, so perhaps Anubias and ferns require much more potassium than stem plants to be healthy.
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I can second this. I always wondered why full ADA tanks never had BBA on Anubias. I think the large filter and the potassium makes all the difference.
 
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Deficiencies have a big role to play on anubias and whether it's covered in algae or not. At least I think so. It's not just potassium. Mine struggled for iron in one tank when left to get it from the water column. That tank was riddled with BBA at some stage. It's irrelevant which nutrient the plant is deficient in. It's got similar response whether it's iron, other micros, nitrogen or potassium, Co2, etc..., at least in my opinion. Severe deficiencies all cause "ugly" growth or stunted growth and the plant may get covered in algae as a response to releasing organics perhaps, and not being able to function correctly.

I've got a lot of anubias in two of my soil tanks. One is right next to a window. The window has white curtains so it gets day light and 6hrs a day artificial light. The anubias in it has overtaken the tank almost and it's got no BBA on any leaves despite that I've had it for years.
The trick I've found is planting the roots in the soil(rhizome) above. The anubias grows really well this way.
In my other tank the anubias is shaded and again planted in the soil. It's been years without BBA or GSA on them.
I don't dose nutrients often but I've dosed micros and some macros occasionally when needed. Deficiencies are noticed in the fast growing plants first so when I see, I dose what I think it is, and it's been working just fine. I don't have a potassium dedicated fert but I've dosed KNO3 sometimes and extra of it if I think it's a potassium issue.
 
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