What causes leaves to melt, and what to do now?

[TopKat75]

Thanks for the links Clive i appreciate it, yeah been reading about these ferts a lot since joining the forum and they've got very good reviews its a shame i bought the prolife bits before i joined as lots of folk talked highly of these as well. I've put an order in for some, is the starter pack sufficient for my needs?
Hi Ollie, you say you use the prolife as a trace mix? What does this entail? Can i still use the prolife in some capacity just seems a shame to of bought it and not being able to put it to good use!! 🙁

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Brooke,
Yes that will get you where you need to be. As Ollie mentioned, Profito is just a trace element mix with a little bit of Potassium (K) mixed in. All the stuff in the Easylif bottles you mentioned have almost exactly the same nutrients compound as found in the dry powders, just 100X less that's all. The shame is not because you cannot put it to good use. The shame is in how much you paid for the same stuff that costs 100X less on a per gram basis.

So, you can just add these in the same manner as you would the powders but just multiply the dosages by a factor of 5. Add the 5X profito + ferro together 2X per week. Profito has microscopic amounts of Cobalt, Lithium, Molybdenum, Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper, Boron, Magnesium, while ferro has only Iron. (these two are a facsimile of the CSM+B mentioned in the tutorial.) Then, for the primary macro dosing, multiply the bottle suggested weekly dosage by 3. That value is how much you need to dose the fosfo + nitro together 3X per week.

So a sample dosing scheme might look like:
Sunday - 50% or more Water Change then add 3X bottle recommended dosage of fosfo+ nitro.
Monday - add the 5X dosage of profito + ferro.
Tuesday - add 3X bottle recommended dosage of fosfo+ nitro.
Wednesday - add the 5X dosage of profito + ferro.
Thursday - add 3X bottle recommended dosage of fosfo+ nitro.
Friday and Saturday - rest.

Cheers,

 

[Brian Murphy]

By dosing profito x 5, will it not harm the fish ?

 

[TopKat75]

Bless you Clive, that really has taken away the worry of guesstimating how much i need when adding these ferts and something Prolife really should of stated somewhere within this range. I can see now why if i continued using the prolife at the realistic measurements you've given you would spend a small fortune on this stuff Thanks again Clive for your help its very much appreciated
Brooke

 

[jack-rythm]

This FAO ceg...

Can I just ask what your background is? I'm just dying to know what do in life fella? Who the hell are u! When I read your posts I need to reed them a fair few times but damn once I have grasped it it's a better lesson than anywhere ever. I have truly never met such a knowledgeable, informative, truthful aquaria hobbyist in all my journey of Aquascaping. You went to be done sort of biologist? I don't know. Could you just give me a lowdown and just give a little about yourself?
for the time that you have put into your comments and your patience you have with others my friend, I truly thank you 😉

Jack

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ceg4048]

By dosing profito x 5, will it not harm the fish ?

Have you been reading what I've been saying for the past two pages? What I'm saying is that there are only microscopic amounts of the required elements in these bottles. When you multiply a microscopic number by 5 or by 10, or by 100, the result of that calculation is still a microscopic number, so toxicity is not an issue.

The next time you're in a pub, ask the bartender to give you 1 teaspoon of your favorite brew, and then pour that teaspoon full into a 1 liter bottle. Then fill the bottle with water. Then, have a sip. How does this taste? Like water right? Will it make you drunk if you consume the entire bottle? The smart answer is "No", because it was only a teaspoon of beer. OK, try this experiment again, this time asking Jeeves to give you 5 teaspoons of brew. Fill the bottle again and take a swig. How does this taste? Does it still taste like crap? Can that intoxicate you if you consumed that liter?

My point is, what would you think if all pubs made it their policy to serve patrons a ratio of 1 teaspoon beer to 1 liter of water? Wouldn't you think it outrageous? If all pubs did this, wouldn't you try your best to learn about home brewing and to brew your own 100% beer? Well, this is exactly what companies that sell aquatic fertilizers do, but somehow, people seem to be OK with this policy. In order to make sure that people keep buying these watered down products, they cleverly devise a propaganda scheme in which they convince you that adding a higher concentration will cause algae, so you immediately forgive them their trespasses against you and keep buying their product. So their profit margin on a bottle of fertilizer is something like 10,000%. If you were in business wouldn't you do exactly the same? This is just business as usual on Planet Earth and I cannot hold it against them, but you and I have an alternative, which is the the same as the homebrew analogy. We can "brew" our own using the raw ingredients that they themselves use, and we can produce 100% nutrition for a fraction of the price.

People who are new to the planted tank scene don't realize the torturous history of fertilization, and how hobbyists have been painfully screwed over royally for years. I'm one of the last survivors of the Psychic Wars. A famous German company, who I will not name, pulled this maneuver in the 1990's. But their profit margin was something like 100,000% and they would sell the fertilizer in tiny 100ml bottles. A couple of clever hobbyists (Paul Sears and Kevin Conlin) who happened to have access to a mass spectrometer at their workplace, and who were outraged at the pricing policy, took samples to the lab, and they discovered that the bottle contained nothing more than KNO3 + K2SO4 + Epsom Salt + Chelated trace elements + water, stuff that you could find in any garden center. This is the same stuff that farmers purchase by the ton. This is exactly the same nutrients used to produce the tomatoes, potatoes, and all the other fruits and vegetables that you eat every day. There is no drama or toxic radioactive ingredients to worry about. It's the same active ingredients found in cow, chicken or pig manure, and it's in the dirt under you backyard lawn right now. You don't need to fear this stuff. It's fundamental to health and growth of every living thing on the planet.

Can I just ask what your background is? I'm just dying to know what do in life fella? Who the hell are u! When I read your posts I need to reed them a fair few times but damn once I have grasped it it's a better lesson than anywhere ever.

Thanks mate. I'm an international terrorist accused of stockpiling weapons of mass destruction. Some authorities claim that I'm the most dangerous man alive. 8)

 

[Nathaniel Whiteside]

But Clive, I like the pretty green colour of TPN+

 

[jack-rythm]

Thanks for the feedback there ceg

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Deano3]

very helpful and i am new and glad on forums like this so dont go to the likes of pets at home to buy plant ferts at the high prices

Dean

 

[Brian Murphy]

By dosing profito x 5, will it not harm the fish ?

Have you been reading what I've been saying for the past two pages? What I'm saying is that there are only microscopic amounts of the required elements in these bottles. When you multiply a microscopic number by 5 or by 10, or by 100, the result of that calculation is still a microscopic number, so toxicity is not an issue.

The next time you're in a pub, ask the bartender to give you 1 teaspoon of your favorite brew, and then pour that teaspoon full into a 1 liter bottle. Then fill the bottle with water. Then, have a sip. How does this taste? Like water right? Will it make you drunk if you consume the entire bottle? The smart answer is "No", because it was only a teaspoon of beer. OK, try this experiment again, this time asking Jeeves to give you 5 teaspoons of brew. Fill the bottle again and take a swig. How does this taste? Does it still taste like crap? Can that intoxicate you if you consumed that liter?

My point is, what would you think if all pubs made it their policy to serve patrons a ratio of 1 teaspoon beer to 1 liter of water? Wouldn't you think it outrageous? If all pubs did this, wouldn't you try your best to learn about home brewing and to brew your own 100% beer? Well, this is exactly what companies that sell aquatic fertilizers do, but somehow, people seem to be OK with this policy. In order to make sure that people keep buying these watered down products, they cleverly devise a propaganda scheme in which they convince you that adding a higher concentration will cause algae, so you immediately forgive them their trespasses against you and keep buying their product. So their profit margin on a bottle of fertilizer is something like 10,000%. If you were in business wouldn't you do exactly the same? This is just business as usual on Planet Earth and I cannot hold it against them, but you and I have an alternative, which is the the same as the homebrew analogy. We can "brew" our own using the raw ingredients that they themselves use, and we can produce 100% nutrition for a fraction of the price.

People who are new to the planted tank scene don't realize the torturous history of fertilization, and how hobbyists have been painfully screwed over royally for years. I'm one of the last survivors of the Psychic Wars. A famous German company, who I will not name, pulled this maneuver in the 1990's. But their profit margin was something like 100,000% and they would sell the fertilizer in tiny 100ml bottles. A couple of clever hobbyists (Paul Sears and Kevin Conlin) who happened to have access to a mass spectrometer at their workplace, and who were outraged at the pricing policy, took samples to the lab, and they discovered that the bottle contained nothing more than KNO3 + K2SO4 + Epsom Salt + Chelated trace elements + water, stuff that you could find in any garden center. This is the same stuff that farmers purchase by the ton. This is exactly the same nutrients used to produce the tomatoes, potatoes, and all the other fruits and vegetables that you eat every day. There is no drama or toxic radioactive ingredients to worry about. It's the same active ingredients found in cow, chicken or pig manure, and it's in the dirt under you backyard lawn right now. You don't need to fear this stuff. It's fundamental to health and growth of every living thing on the planet.

Can I just ask what your background is? I'm just dying to know what do in life fella? Who the hell are u! When I read your posts I need to reed them a fair few times but damn once I have grasped it it's a better lesson than anywhere ever.

Thanks mate. I'm an international terrorist accused of stockpiling weapons of mass destruction. Some authorities claim that I'm the most dangerous man alive. 8)

Excellent Ceg .... don't think I'll be splashing out them moneys again lol

 

[Mon_Men]

My point is, what would you think if all pubs made it their policy to serve patrons a ratio of 1 teaspoon beer to 1 liter of water? Wouldn't you think it outrageous? If all pubs did this, wouldn't you try your best to learn about home brewing and to brew your own 100% beer? Well, this is exactly what companies that sell aquatic fertilizers do, but somehow, people seem to be OK with this policy. In order to make sure that people keep buying these watered down products, they cleverly devise a propaganda scheme in which they convince you that adding a higher concentration will cause algae, so you immediately forgive them their trespasses against you and keep buying their product. So their profit margin on a bottle of fertilizer is something like 10,000%. If you were in business wouldn't you do exactly the same? This is just business as usual on Planet Earth and I cannot hold it against them, but you and I have an alternative, which is the the same as the homebrew analogy. We can "brew" our own using the raw ingredients that they themselves use, and we can produce 100% nutrition for a fraction of the price.



People who are new to the planted tank scene don't realize the torturous history of fertilization, and how hobbyists have been painfully screwed over royally for years. I'm one of the last survivors of the Psychic Wars. A famous German company, who I will not name, pulled this maneuver in the 1990's. But their profit margin was something like 100,000% and they would sell the fertilizer in tiny 100ml bottles. A couple of clever hobbyists (Paul Sears and Kevin Conlin) who happened to have access to a mass spectrometer at their workplace, and who were outraged at the pricing policy, took samples to the lab, and they discovered that the bottle contained nothing more than KNO3 + K2SO4 + Epsom Salt + Chelated trace elements + water, stuff that you could find in any garden center. This is the same stuff that farmers purchase by the ton. This is exactly the same nutrients used to produce the tomatoes, potatoes, and all the other fruits and vegetables that you eat every day. There is no drama or toxic radioactive ingredients to worry about. It's the same active ingredients found in cow, chicken or pig manure, and it's in the dirt under you backyard lawn right now. You don't need to fear this stuff. It's fundamental to health and growth of every living thing on the planet.

One of the best analogies I have ever encountered.

Even if its belated, I totally agree with the ferts. Everything mentioned is spot on - especially the way the manufacturers package their products. I have a 200g tank and I am saving a lot of money by mixing my own macro and micro ferts. ceg4048 is right - with just caution in mixing, there is no danger. I have invested in an accurate weighing scale. The investment is so much lower compared to getting ferts from manufacturers who sell them for around $10 per 250ml.

 

[Paulo Soares]

HI Clive here i´m after reading all this as you suggested,

Can someone explain me better this quote:

The one ph drop method involves leaving a cup of tank water standing for 24 hours. If the pH of the tank water is one point lower than the water in the cup then it is said you have 30ppm CO2. This does presume that you have 3ppm CO2 in the cup of tank water which very rarely is the case.

Let´s see if i get this right. Today after the photoperiod, i take a cup (for instance of 30 ml) of water tank and leave it outside in a cup.
Tommorow at the same time when photoperiod ends, i measure the PH in the tank and also in this 30 ml in the cup and compare.

Is this the method?

But this wont´tell me WHEN do i achiev that difference i´m gonna see. When? When do i achieved this difference? In the begining or in the midle or only in the end of the photoperiod? That´s the question.

What i need is to ensure that in those two previous hours before lights up i have allready a good Co2 in the tank as Clive always said in many posts. But i can´t!
Cause when i regulate the Co2 valve in order to achive a 1PPM drop in those couple of hours i have a problem pretty soon .. by the midle of the photoperiod all fish are stressed in the top of the water..

So.. how in Gods name i´m gonna put good levels of co2? I´m really getting piss off with the co2..
This Saturday i´m gonna make a video. I´m going to gaz co2 to achiev 1 ppm drop and then you´ll see..


And also, today i´m gonna put one pump next to the outflow to increase flow. The plants will be dancing all around...

 

[Paulo Soares]

One gentleman in the Barr Report told me to this:

"Measure your c02 rate:

1. Take a measuring cup with markings for ml.
2. Get it in the aquarium till is filled with water and turn it over submerged.
Fill with water and submerge in the tank
3. Take the c02 hose and place it UNDER the cup so the bubbles go into the cup.
4. Time for 60 seconds and let us know how many ml were displaced by the c02 bubbles.

This will be your Co2 rate, is simply too low as well."

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Paulo,
Sorry mate, I don't think that quote came from me, so I'm not really sure how to address it. I would have to see the context of that paragraph.

In any case I don't think that you are on the right path if you are thinking in terms of cups and bubbles and ml markers.

What I would have stated is that within a certain KH range, a 1 pH drop is a good indicator that you are diffusing an adequate amount of gas into the water column. I never think in terms of ppm values because they are all illusions. It's a very bad idea to get trapped with numbers that no one can measure accurately. If you have a £1000 CO2 meter you can get accurate values, but we should be less concerned with numbers and more concerned with an injection rate, dissolution technique and distribution method that keeps plants healthy and which does not kill fish.

So, at KH of say, 6-10 a 1 pH unit drop by the time the lights come on from the time the gas is turned on is a good basic starting point.
Again, this is only one piece of the puzzle. You have to make sure that the gas does not continue to drive the pH too low as this will indicate toxic levels, so sometimes you have to accept a smaller pH drop to stay on the safe side. The other factors need to be optimized, and of course, the lighting needs to be within reason. Too much light will cause so much stress that only levels of the gas which are toxic to fauna will suffice to keep the plants healthy. If fish are stressed then look at distribution. Is flow good? Is the flow pattern good. These are not as easy to answer as "How many bubbles do I have?".

At higher alkalinity, above 10 then there is sufficient acid buffering in the water to absorb the carbonic acid, so that the pH indication is less dramatic and so a smaller pH drop can be expected to indicate adequate gas concentration levels. At low kH there is very little buffering, so small gas concentration levels drive the pH more dramatically, one needs to look for a larger pH drop to indicate adequate levels.

You seem to be focused primarily on injection rate and it is less clear how you are addressing the other factors. You haven't discussed flow rates or distribution methods, yet these are the keys to using LESS injection rate to ensure healthy plants.

Cheers,

 

[Paulo Soares]

You seem to be focused primarily on injection rate and it is less clear how you are addressing the other factors. You haven't discussed flow rates or distribution methods, yet these are the keys to using LESS injection rate to ensure healthy plants.

Hi Clive,
You´re right and the issue is really the flow/circulation. Yesterday i did an experience meanwhile we were talking during the day. As My Eheim filter is about 750 liter hour, in the morning I put a pump in the tank of 400 liter hour.
Didn´t change anything in the co2 injection as it was before. I only introduce that pump right next to the ouutflow filter both pointing in the difuser direction.

When i got home the drop was almost transparent, a bright bright almost transparent yellow and the fish were all at the top. My "Helenas" hide inside the substratte, and the shrimp climbing the glass... luckily no deads. God was with me..
I did an imediate waterchange and all came to normal.

But here i rest my case.. and as tommorow is Saturday i´m going to dedicate the day assembling the co2 to a right injection cause now i can see that with this waterpump inside i dont´need so much injection and now i also see the losses of co2 i was having before. And of course the need of a new filter to replace this.. a new one with at list 1000 liter / hour.

Of course now the plants that are on the oposite side of these outflows direction are dancing rock and roll and i didn´t want this to happen (i just don´t like it) but i think i had to live with this...isn´t that so? But the other plants below the outflow are shaking just a bit. The normal.(i just can´t figure out how those ADA guys do it in so calm waters...).

But there´s one positive thing also.. didn´t have the need of buying a ADA diffuser but clearly a new filter. 😉
And as those ADA people don´t care about claims and solicitations or care about their clientes, as i did to them 3 times now a claim for help, without any answer so far, i no longer will buy any product of them. Love with love to pay.

As for you and all frineds many thanks.
A huge HUG

 

[ceg4048]

Hi Paulo,
Glad you were able to discover the answer. As I mention many times, flow rate and distribution are key components to gas uptake. Now it's just a matter of finding the best compromise of injection rate and flow rate.

As far as the ADA tanks, they can get away with a lot less flow rate because primarily they use much less light. Their ADA florescent ballast produces less than half the energy as normal ballast, however, the bulbs are very high in green and yellow. The human optic nerve is very sensitive to green and yellow and is much less sensitive to red and blue. So when the bulb illuminates, we perceive it as being very bright compared to a bulb that has less green/yellow and more red/blue. So, even though the actual PAR value output by the ADA bulb/ballast combination is very low, it still appears bright to us. Without understanding this fundamental concept, hobbyists run around in a hysteria claiming that they need high light and special Kelvin to make plants grow. They purchase non-ADA lighting fixtures that pump out massive amounts of PAR and the result is disaster. Now they need massive amounts of CO2 in order to support the high light.

When we focus on gas exchange in plants, instead of on exotic lighting parameters, we discover the truth that water and CO2 are as important as light. Each environment presents a different challenge and has a different combination of the three. Think about the fact Sahara desert has plenty of light but a shortage of water, while England has much less light but has plenty of water. Which land can support more plants? In an aquatic environment, there is plenty of water but not much CO2, so CO2 will always be the limiting factor in an aquatic environment.

As far as your new filter, ensure that it's throughput rating is at least 10X the volume of your tank per hour, or if you choose to use supplemental pumps, you might be able to use several smaller pumps that can still enhance the flow but perhaps will not cause as much turbulence.

Cheers,