Unhealthy plants and troublesome algae

[calsip]

Hi,

I'm hoping someone will be able to help with my son's tank. I think we got some relatively good advice from the LFS but we were still pretty clueless in the beginning and it's been a bit of a rocky road. There have been a few issues, mostly solved but are still concerned about the health of the plants and the remaining algae. It may just need more time but if not it would be great to start addressing the problems right away.

We've made lots of changes over the last couple of months but here's how it is now:

1. Size of tank:

• 90L

2. Age of the system approximately:

• 4 months

3. Tap water parameters:

• Not sure what I should state here but the full details are attached.

4. Filtration and Media:

• Fluval 207 with ceramic media, bio-foam+, bio-foam max & bio-foam

5. Lighting and duration:

• 8 hours including 30 min ramp-up and ramp-down.
• Light came with the Superfish Scaper 90 - 32w LED, PAR 269, 7300K, Lux 16100.
• Limited to 50% power.

6. Substrate:

• JBL Manado Dark

7. Co2:

• CO2Art Pro-SE
• 1.5 bps, 3hrs before lights on until 1hr before lights out

8. Drop Checker:

• dark green (a little blue) at lights on
• darkish green at lights out

9. Fertilizers used + Ratios:

• TNC Complete 17ml three times a week

10. Water change regime and composition:

• 50% change once a week

11. Plant list + Invitro/Emersed:

• Monte Carlo
• Rotala Vietnam H'ra
• Stauogyne repens
• Eleocharis acicularis 'Mini'

12. Inhabitants

• 6 Otocinclus
• 1 (lonely 🙁) Cardinal Tetra

13. Full tank shot and surface image:

This is a couple of hours after a water change and there's still bubbles on everything, particularly the algae.




Here are the issues we've had and the changes we've made, at least as far as I can remember.

We started out without CO2 or a light dimmer and were using Microbe-Lift Plants Green Fertilizer (I've seen a comment that tap water contains more nutrients!!).

After 2 months of cycling the tank and getting the plants settled, green dust and green hair algae covered everything. We reduced the lights to 6 hours and added the 6 Otocinclus. The GDA was greatly reduced on the glass and slowly reducing elsewhere.

We added 17 cardinal tetra, one of which went straight to the bottom of the tank and stayed there looking sad. After a day or two it became apparent that it had columnaris and more we unhappy. They also had white spot. Unfortunately, we discovered this jsut as the shops were closing for Christmas. The only one we could get to had a Malachite Green/Formaldehyde white spot treatment but nothing for columnaris. We started with that treatment. By the time the shops opened we'd lost about 7 tetra and the Ottocinclus also had white spot. LFS advised continuing with the white spot treatment and treat the columnaris after that if there were still sick fish. It was another week or so for the white spot to go completely and by that time we'd lost 16 tetra 😢 The last one didn't show any signs of columnaris fortunately and has been fine since. We currently have a quarantine tank cycling and will hopefully be adding some friends for him soon.

Some time after the meds were finished, we noticed the Staurogyne Repens looking unwell. There were lots of leaves with yellow/brown patches and around the edges. There were also some with brown/black rimmed holes in them.

We trimmed most of the unhealthy leaves and increased the Microbe-Lift Plants Green to about 1.5x the suggested dose. We also added CO2 around this time and there has been less hair algae since.

The Monte Carlo developed brown patches/edges very similar to the Staurogyne Repens.

A week ago we switched to TNC Complete. We gave it 3x the suggested dose (E.I. levels I believe) and have given it 2x the dose on two occasions since. The yellow patches were much better within a day and gone after two. The brown remained but there seemed to be less of it developing.

It might be too early to tell but it does look like new growth has brown edges which is why I'm worried there was more to it than a lack of nutrients.

Also around a week ago we got an S2Pro to dim/ramp the light and put it back to 8 hours with the 30min ramp ups/downs.

Regarding the other plants..

The Eleocharis acicularis has grown very little, though I believe they are supposed to grow slowly. They have however been covered in hair algae which impossible to clear well and returned very quickly anyway. A week ago I pulled them out for reverse respiration which may have killed the algae that was on them but definitely killed the oldest growth of the plants. We have seen a small amount of new growth on them for the first time in a while though. More hair algae has appeared on them but much less than they used to get.

The Rotala Vietnam H'ra seems to have done really well. It was big and bushy with lovely orange/pink colours, really taking off when we added the CO2. What's there now has grown from it being cut back to almost nothing a week ago.

Sorry for the lengthy post, I'm not sure what is/isn't relevant.

Photos of the brown leaves and algae below.

Any thoughts or advice would be extremely welcome!

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

I’m running the same tank, filtration and lighting as you and the same WC regime. However there’s a lot of differences in my approach.

My CO2 is likely higher than yours. I’m lime green on the DC at lights on.

My lights are full strength 8 hours a day.

I have floating and emersed plants.

My fertiliser regime is currently adding potassium sulphate and trace elements with N and P being provided by livestock waste and substrate.

My gut feeling is that you have too many nutrients but not the conditions to encourage plant growth over algae. I’m not familiar with the fertilisers you’re using but you’ve said you’re overdosing and your tap water already has a low, but useful amount of nitrate in it. The combination of fish waste, ferts and your tap water could be too much nitrate.


With more light and more CO2 you may see stronger plant growth which could out compete the algae. You would probably benefit from floating plants to suck up some excess nutrients and keep an eye on the nutrient levels in the tank (look up Darrel’s duckweed index - can’t do a link on my phone).

I’m only speculating as I’m quite new to this myself but I seem to be doing okay plant wise with my set up based on what I’ve said above.

 

[Bradders]

I am not a plant expert, so please take advice from others here!

However, my questions are:

1. Is that water slightly cloudy or milky, or is it just the camera making it look that way?
2. I cannot see any surface agitation at all from the shots; it looks like there is next to none. Would you concur?
3. How often are you cleaning your filter at the moment, and what parts are you cleaning and how?

 

[John q]

Hiya @calisp welcome to the forum.

Every story has to begin somewhere, so let's start by saying the tap water you have looks fine, the only negative I can see is that it's low in magnesium, this is an easy fix and can be corrected by adding a ¼ of a teaspoon of magnesium sulphate (epsom salts) in with each water change. Ask if you're unsure which product to buy.

Water flow: what's it like? Ideally you want some surface agitation and you also want to see some movement in the plants at substrate level.
Trying to guess from a picture is difficult but if you don't have both the above then that needs correcting. This could be achieved by a combination of raising the outlet slightly and/or removing some of those noodles in the filter.

Co2: how are you injecting it, inline diffuser. I can see an air stone in the tank, is this turned on at night or is this the co2 diffuser?
Ideally you want the drop checker colour to be a nice emerald green (like the colour in your first picture) within an hour of the lights coming on, and remaining that colour until the gas goes off. If this isn't the case then the co2 injection rate, delivery or timing might need tweaking.

Fertilizer: I don't think any of the issues above are related to nutrient overdosing, you've only been adding them for a week and you mention these problems were persistent prior to adding the TNC. I suspect lack of nutrients has contributed to some of the problems and I'd continue dosing the tnc, that said you don't need to add 51ml a week, 6ml every other day (18ml a week) should be enough for the plant mass in that tank. Try and add this just before the lights come on if possible.

Light: 50% is more than sufficient at this moment in time, increasing it whilst fighting algae isn't a good idea.

Algae: try removing the stringy stuff with a toothbrush, see if you can twist the brush and the strings should wrap around the brush enabling you to pull it free from the plants/hardscape.
The brown diatoms might rub off the leaves if you gently rub them with your thumb and forefinger. These should also reduce with time.
Adding some Amano shrimp might help reduce the string algae.

Plant mass: this needs increasing. Get some cheap fast growing stems in there and add some floating plants. These can be removed at a latter date if needed.


All in all the tank looks OK ish, check you have adequate flow around the tank, feed the plants and constantly harass the algae. Doing this and having a little patience should bring benefits.


That's it for now, I need my morning cuppa.

 

[G H Nelson]

Hiya @calisp
You have received good advice from @John q
The substrate....JBL Manado Dark, looks like crushed lava rock, you have done well to grow plants in this substrate it doesn't have nutrients.....claims to hold Iron or harvest Iron?
You have diatomic algae and Green Thread Algae.
The S Repens looks as though it's Magnesium deficient or Iron......these two deficiencies are hard to tell apart from plant to plant!
As John stated add MgSo4 and wait for a few days to see the reaction on the S Repens....those veins should not be so pronounced.
If there is no improvement it's probably an Iron deficiency there are lots of threads on Iron dosing.
Run lighting at 50% till you have algae under control.
Running an airstone is best done when lights are off as you are blowing a lot of the injected Co2 out of the water column.
Get some surface plants....use the Tutorial below.

Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new, it has benefits, especially for a new setup. 1. Improves water quality. 2. Reduces excess light. 3. Reduces diatoms. 4. Reduces...

www.ukaps.org

hoggie

 

[G H Nelson]

Final thought!
Finish off the purchased fertilizers and make your own bespoke fertilizers!

 

[calsip]

Thank you very much for the help all!

The water isn't milky and seems really clear to me. It doesn't look how it does in the pictures anyway. There are lots of micro bubbles from the CO2 and there are also still some fibres from a pad that came with the filter (we removed it once it started shedding). Perhaps those are causing the effect with the camera.

There is surface agitation but it is very localized and while I thought it was pretty good I'm really unsure as to whether it's sufficient. I've marked where we get it in the picture. There are ripples and lots of what I think are small whirlpools (look like dimples) that track across the marked area.

The filter is on full and cleaned weekly in old tank water. Foam is removed and cleaned thoroughly. Media containers are dunked to remove loose algae etc but the media itself is not scrubbed or anything.

There is an inline CO2Art diffuser but I didn't notice any difference in flow having fitted that.

Pipes & diffuser are 16mm ID.

The lily pipe is directed to circulate the water around the tank, which is does effectively. Plants in all locations have movement.

I'll try raising the outlet pipe. Is it worth directing it more towards the centre of the tank? That would increase the agitated area but sacrifice the circular flow pattern.

I'll also get some magnesium sulphate ordered and reduce the fertilizer as suggested. As the plants grow, should I increase the fertilizer if/when I see signs of deficiencies or just guestimate it?

The air stone is set to come on for 2 hours when the lights go off. The tank is in my son's bedroom so would prefer not to have it on through the night if possible. I thought the filter was doing a good enough job and hoped we'd be able to get rid of it completely but the kid was adamant he was going to use it having spent his pocked money on it!

 

[John q]

I'll try raising the outlet pipe. Is it worth directing it more towards the centre of the tank? That would increase the agitated area but sacrifice the circular flow pattern.

We ideally want a circular flow but we want that flow to be top to bottom rather than around the surface of the tank. Excuse my dodgy lined example but positioning the outlet straight forward, or slightly towards the centre might give better water circulation from top to bottom. Something like this.

The air stone is set to come on for 2 hours when the lights go off. The tank is in my son's bedroom so would prefer not to have it on through the night if possible

That's not a problem, kids sleep is far more important.

As the plants grow, should I increase the fertilizer if/when I see signs of deficiencies or just guestimate it?

Yep watch and monitor, small increases in plant growth shouldn't really impact on how much you dose.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

My filter is the same as yours. The top of me filter outlet is roughly level with the surface of the water and this is sufficient flow to disperse CO2 throughout the tank and provide surface agitation.

If you want more surface agitation and oxygenation, reinstall the HOB filter that came with it but remove all the filter media that came with it. It will operate like a circulation pump. Without the filter media it’s pretty quiet.

 

[Bradders]

We ideally want a circular flow but we want that flow to be top to bottom rather than around the surface of the tank. Excuse my dodgy lined example but positioning the outlet straight forward, or slightly towards the centre might give better water circulation from top to bottom.

Complete agree with @John q there - good one to check.

There is surface agitation but it is very localized and while I thought it was pretty good I'm really unsure as to whether it's sufficient. I've marked where we get it in the picture. There are ripples and lots of what I think are small whirlpools (look like dimples) that track across the marked area.

That does not look like a lot of gas exchange to me, and I do believe it's important. Now, I dont run C02, but this is how my surface agitation looks for a comparison.

 

[calsip]

I've raised the lily pipe which has helped a little. Photo/video of how it looks now.

While it does circulate around the surface, there is a strong downward flow at the rear left corner of the tank so I thought there was enough vertical mixing. I will however try redirecting the flow later (have to go out now)

 

[G H Nelson]

You are underdosing if the aquarium is 90 Litres and running CO2 and reasonable lighting.
3x9ml = 27ml per week.


TNC Complete contains a balanced blend of Nitrogen, Phosphorous, and Potassium as well as Magnesium and all the important trace elements.
Dose
1ml per 10 litres of tank water per week.
Dose can be increased to 2 or 3 times per week depending on plant growth, water changes etc.


1ml per 10 litres of tank water 3x per week will give a dose similar to the Estimative Index levels – Be sure to change 50% of your water once per week to remove organic waste from the plants.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to UKAPS. The diatoms (brown patches) are really common in new set-up and will decline over time. The pearling green algae is actually a good sign, <"green algae are plants"> and it just shows that they are fairly happy.

2. Age of the system approximately:

• 4 months

3. Tap water parameters:

• Not sure what I should state here but the full details are attached.

Your tap water is really good. I'd guess it is from a reservoir somewhere in the Bannau Brycheiniog (Brecon Beacons).

What the others have said after that, it looks OK, you just need some <"more plant mass">, I like a floating plant <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?"> and <"Plant Profile - Ceratopteris thalictroides"> but with CO2 addition that is less important.

You need to add a <"complete fertiliser">, your plants can only make use of the extra CO2 if <"all the other nutrients"> are available.

cheers Darrel

 

[John q]

You are underdosing if the aquarium is 90 Litres and running CO2 and reasonably lighting.
3x9ml = 27ml per week.

Lol, I'm trying to save the kid some pocket money hoggie 😀

18ml imo is enough given the current plant mass, it provides this. (I'll add a caveat that some extra Dtpa Iron maybe required if deficiency symptoms appear) Not ei but...


27ml would add this which will also be fine. Providing this.


Either way you definitely don't need 51ml a week.

 

[calsip]

1ml per 10 litres of tank water 3x per week will give a dose similar to the Estimative Index levels – Be sure to change 50% of your water once per week to remove organic waste from the plants.

Oh! I misunderstood.. I thought EI was triple dose, three times a week. I didn’t realise a single dose three times a week was already EI levels. When I said we added 17ml, 3 times a week that was 17ml each time - so 51ml total 😳

Just as well I aimed for 2/3 EI due to having few plants / low light (calculations were based on 85L due to water level/things in tank/filter canister). That means we hit double EI levels but I believe with EI and 50% water changes, the most you can end up with in the water is double what you add per week. Hopefully no harm done as it was our first week 😬

 

[calsip]

Since the yellowing and the browning of the plants occurred at the same time I assumed both were just nutrient deficiency. Since the new ferts dealt with the yellowing but the brown increased slightly I thought that must be where the plants were too far gone and dying. Feel a bit silly finding that the brown just rubs off but also rather relieved 😅

 

[calsip]

With the lily pipe directed more centrally the surface agitation is greatly reduced. I added a piece of hose directing the flow upwards a bit and the surface is almost as agitated as when it was directed at the glass. It is however only affecting the left side of the tank still and is V-shaped out to the corners. Will get one of those wide mouth / angled attachments if we’re keeping the lily pipe in this position as that should help a bit.

Water flow is closer to John Q’s diagram but most of it doesn’t make it back to the other side of the tank (see badly drawn diagram). Is this OK? The plants on the right side aren’t really moving but the thread algae is swaying gently. The micro bubbles are making their way around the right side slowly so I don’t think there are any dead spots but it’s waaaay less movement that the other side.

 

[simon_the_plant_nerd]

With the lily pipe directed more centrally the surface agitation is greatly reduced. I added a piece of hose directing the flow upwards a bit and the surface is almost as agitated as when it was directed at the glass. It is however only affecting the left side of the tank still and is V-shaped out to the corners. Will get one of those wide mouth / angled attachments if we’re keeping the lily pipe in this position as that should help a bit.

Water flow is closer to John Q’s diagram but most of it doesn’t make it back to the other side of the tank (see badly drawn diagram). Is this OK? The plants on the right side aren’t really moving but the thread algae is swaying gently. The micro bubbles are making their way around the right side slowly so I don’t think there are any dead spots but it’s waaaay less movement that the other side.

View attachment 215274

Use your canister filter with the outflow submerged to provide flow around the tank to distribute co2 and nutrients. Keep the Fluval maintained so flow rate isn’t reduced.

Reinstall the HOB filter and let the waterfall do your surface agitation. Dump out the filter cartridges to increase flow rate. You don’t need them as your Fluval is doing the filtration.

Or buy a wave maker/circulation pump if you want?

 

[G H Nelson]

@simon_the_plant_nerd
Or buy a wave maker/circulation pump if you want?

Could remove some of the Filter Media from the Fluval 207 to increase flow.

 

[John q]

Could remove some of the Filter Media from the Fluval 207 to increase flow.

That's the answer @calisp