Tropica Specialised causing Nitrite spikes - false positive or genuine concern??

[Zeus.]

s it something that the tank is going to adjust to over time too

The increasing the dosing frequency was my solution when using urea, little and often. With using a PLC for a timer for DIY doser I was able to dose my urea based AIO fert 100 times a week ( few drops every 12mins). On ther tank was still dosing Macros and Micros so dosed every couple of hours macros then Micros. Which should IMO/IME prevent the spikes/peaks in 'NH4/NO2' levels.
Only down side of little and often is the end of dosing pipe needed more regular cleaning as the fert being dosed tended to ppt out a little on end of pipe

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form, from what I understand it is more energy efficient for them since otherwise they would have to convert nitrate to more preferred form internally. However, too much will be toxic to plants as well as livestock, so anyone using this must take great care to strike a good balance. One should consider their tank plant mass, many hungry plants will be safer than a lightly planted tank for example. One should also consider the PH of their tank as use of ammoniacal nitrogen will be safer in low PH ranges than the higher levels. I think biological maturity of the tank itself can also be a factor.

I think that is a good summary and personally I'd be very wary of dosing ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) containing fertilisers in anything other than very weak doses (see @Zeus.'s post <"above">). The advantage of NH4NO3 would be that you only add nitrogen (N ~ 33%), from both the anion (NO3-) and <"the TAN">.

I think urea (CO(NH2)2) is safer as a nitrogen source (N ~ 46%), although we still have <"some uncertainty"> about the rate of conversion to NH3 / NH4+.

Other options would be available, I'm just about to start using <"Solufeed 2 : 1 :4"> (composition below)



cheers Darrel

 

[John q]

So are there specific benefits to it - why have they picked that instead of KN03

Because its cheaper is the simple answer. Maybe plants uptake ureasa, ammonia, dung beetles anal glands... more efficiently, maybe they don't... don't believe the bullshit that kno3 won't produce healthy plants... it will.

 

[Hufsa]

... don't believe the bullshit that kno3 won't produce healthy plants... it will.

Who said this?

 

[John q]

Who said this?

Sorry mate, should probably correct myself. Just seems to be a lot of love for nh4 atm & a lot of hate for kno3... mea culpa 😁

 

[Hufsa]

& a lot of hate for kno3...

Again where? 🤔
All ive seen is a fairly nuanced discussion where we talk about some benefits and some dangers around using ammonia.
That doesn't mean NO3 is useless or no good?

 

[John q]

think it is possible that the danger of ammonia (and Urea) based fertilizers have been somewhat overstated for some years

It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form,

otherwise they would have to convert nitrate

All ive seen is a fairly nuanced discussion where we talk about some benefits and some dangers around using ammonia

For the newbies reading this the take home will be ammonia Is more beneficial than kno3, which in my opinion is wrong.

Willing to accept my kno3 hatred slur suggestion is also wrong, you never said that. 👍

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

For the newbies reading this the take home will be ammonia Is more beneficial than kno3

I'd agree, that is a real danger and nitrates (NO3-) are a <"much safer option">.

cheers Darrel

 

[plantnoobdude]

No3 is definitely the safer option. but no3 is definitely not more beneficial to plants than nh4.

https://koiorganisationinternational.org/sites/default/files/Plants%20verses%20Filters.pdf

the majority of aquatic plants show a preference to nh4 over no3.

 

[John q]

No3 is definitely the safer option. but no3 is definitely not more beneficial to plants than nh4

Agreed, and beautiful aquascapes/ healthy plants can be accomplished with or without nh4. 😀

 

[erwin123]

versus

How to grow Ludwigia senegalensis

Ludwigia senegalensis comes from African where it is widespread. It first entered the hobby under the name Ludwigia 'Guinea', and has since become popular in the hobby due to its distinctive red leaves. It is a small sized stem plant with reddish leaves that have a distinct red web pattern when...

www.2hraquarist.com

I'm always on the lookout for aquascapers who have journals and the same plants as me, as I'm always looking for advice on how to grow the plants better. One of the plants I want to grow better is Ludwigia senegalensis and as the photo shows, mine are a far cry from what 2hr aquarist achieves. In the 2hr aquarist link, Ammonia is specifically mentioned.

Therefore, I've begun an experiment and have started to dose both APTI EI (0.7m daily) AND TSN (0.4ml daily) to see whether small amounts of ammoniacal nitrogen in the water column will do anything for the Ludwigia. I have no vested interested in Tropica ferts and I'll just post a comparison photo maybe in 1 months' time, and readers can judge if there is any improvement. (Unfortunately, my lighting levels cannot match what Dennis can achieve with his 8x T5 setup.... and I wonder how much high light plays a part...)

 

[MichaelJ]

Hi all,

I'd agree, that is a real danger and nitrates (NO3-) are a <"much safer option">.

cheers Darrel

This is honestly not the hill I want to die on, but realistically if your running a reasonably densely planted aquarium, the amount of NH4 some of us are suggesting you dose are nowhere near toxic levels - even at at elevated (>7) pH levels. I would submit that we have more fellow hobbyists adding more toxins to their tanks while following mainstream fertilizer methodologies than the ones amongst us that are dosing "lean" and compounds containing NH4. I am not a CO2 user, but I would suggest that the chance of someone having a flawed regulator or valve (or deliberately running CO2 at excess levels) killing their fish from CO2 asphyxiation is much bigger than someone accidentally dropping a bottle of Tropica Specialized into their tank... or introducing fish too early in a tank with super enriched substrate leaching NH4... Let's keep the conversation real. NH4 is a part of all amazonian habitats in levels we wouldn't even consider that safe...

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

This is honestly not the hill I want to die on, but realistically if your running a reasonably densely planted aquarium, the amount of NH4 some of us are suggesting you dose are nowhere near toxic levels - even at at elevated (>7) pH levels.

I'm not going to argue with that, I'm still <"using a fertiliser mix"> with <"some ammonia in it">.

I am not a CO2 user, but I would suggest that the chance of someone having a flawed regulator or valve (or deliberately running CO2 at excess levels) killing their fish from CO2 asphyxiation is much bigger than someone accidentally dropping a bottle of Tropica Specialized into their tank...

I'd agree, I'm not, (<"nor ever will be">), a CO2 user either.

or introducing fish too early in a tank with super enriched substrate leaching NH4..

<"Same again"> and point taken, there are a lot of other risk factors, many of them <"more serious">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

I would like to amend a few of my statements

It was therefore concluded that TSN uses ammonium nitrate as its nitrogen source.

Its also possible that they use a combination of Urea, Ammonium Nitrate and Potassium Nitrate, however, the portion of Potassium Nitrate cannot be very high, because then they would not be able to have the low K (potassium) level that they do.

Interestingly, even if they use Urea in their fertilizer, Urea does not last forever in solution from what I understand, but breaks down into ammonia/ammonium over time.
If so then a brand new bottle of TSN will be slightly different to an old bottle of TSN. I wonder if this can account for the different reports from user who have tested their bottle of TSN for ammonia, where some get a very clear reading and some do not.

It seems that plants prefer to uptake nitrogen in ammoniacal form, from what I understand it is more energy efficient for them since otherwise they would have to convert nitrate to more preferred form internally.

So this is not entirely accurate, some plants prefer ammonium and some prefer nitrate. Exactly what the ratio is between our commonly kept species, or which prefers this and that is so far not known I think?
The list from Walstad includes mostly "old fashioned" aquarium plants and not so many of those species we keep nowadays, so that the majority of her list prefers ammonia might or might not indicate what the majority preference could be for our plants.

I think its likely that a combination of nitrate nitrogen and ammoniacal nitrogen could be a good compromise for a fertilizer.
Id like to test that out in my tank once my current "experiments" are done 😃

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

........ So this is not entirely accurate, some plants prefer ammonium and some prefer nitrate. Exactly what the ratio is between our commonly kept species, or which prefers this and that is so far not known I think?.......

We have a <"thread">. From a personal point of view I'm not convinced that the form that you supply fixed nitrogen in really matters.

....... I think this is right, this time the <"one legged Irishman"> is in the <"all you can eat buffet">, he has run out of ribs, but he is still tucking into the vol-au-vents and he has just alerted his friends that there is free food available........

I think of it a bit like cars. The smallest aerodynamic advantage might be of paramount importance in a Formula 1 car, but it doesn't make much difference for most of us, <"stuck in the traffic">, on our commute to work.

Same with plant growth, if you want to achieve maximal growth rate, in a system where;

• Photo-synthetically active radiation (<"PAR">),
• <"CO2"> and
• the <"essential mineral nutrients"> ,

are all non-limiting? Then the form of fixed nitrogen may become relevant, otherwise, I'd guess, it probably isn't that important.

cheers Darrel

 

[macek.g]

versus

How to grow Ludwigia senegalensis

Ludwigia senegalensis comes from African where it is widespread. It first entered the hobby under the name Ludwigia 'Guinea', and has since become popular in the hobby due to its distinctive red leaves. It is a small sized stem plant with reddish leaves that have a distinct red web pattern when...

www.2hraquarist.com

I'm always on the lookout for aquascapers who have journals and the same plants as me, as I'm always looking for advice on how to grow the plants better. One of the plants I want to grow better is Ludwigia senegalensis and as the photo shows, mine are a far cry from what 2hr aquarist achieves. In the 2hr aquarist link, Ammonia is specifically mentioned.

Therefore, I've begun an experiment and have started to dose both APTI EI (0.7m daily) AND TSN (0.4ml daily) to see whether small amounts of ammoniacal nitrogen in the water column will do anything for the Ludwigia. I have no vested interested in Tropica ferts and I'll just post a comparison photo maybe in 1 months' time, and readers can judge if there is any improvement. (Unfortunately, my lighting levels cannot match what Dennis can achieve with his 8x T5 setup.... and I wonder how much high light plays a part...)

You have no problem with nitrogen, you specifically have a problem "with the availability of manganese".
Senegalensis
R.Macrandra type 4 ?
Bacopa Purple

 

[erwin123]

You have no problem with nitrogen, you specifically have a problem "with the availability of manganese".
Senegalensis
R.Macrandra type 4 ?
Bacopa Purple

Thanks for your help. I'll look into Manganese.

 

[Hufsa]

You have no problem with nitrogen, you specifically have a problem "with the availability of manganese".
Senegalensis
R.Macrandra type 4 ?
Bacopa Purple

If possible could you elaborate for us/me?
Maybe best to move to erwin's journal though so we dont go too far off topic for this thread 😃