Tropica Premium, Masterline Golden or APT Zero?

[illumnae]

I recently set up my 7 x 3 x 4 ft tank as a planted tank with mostly simple plants like echinodorus, cryptocoryne, anubias, bolbitis and Java ferns. Lighting over the tank is 3x Chihiros Vivid 2 (10th Anniversary Edition) at about 70% power raised 6 inches over the water line currently at 6 hours of light (with additional 30min each of sunrise and sunset). Co2 drops pH by about 0.8-0.9. The rooted plants are planted in ADA Amazonia 2 substrate with power sand below. I also run a uv sterilizer on the system to control fish disease in the tank, so I understand I would need to increase fertilizer dosage to compensate for that. About 10% water is changed daily via a 24/7 drip system.

The tank has been cycling for just about 2 months, comprising about 1 month of dark start and being planted 1 month ago. Fritzyme 7 was added to help the filter mature faster. I added have 250 amano shrimp (pretty sure at least 50 either climbed out of the tank and dried out in some dark corner or found their way into the sump tank), 100 orange cherry shrimp and 200 red nose shrimp to start on algae and detritus feeding. The first batch of tester fish went in 1 week ago (50 diamond tetras) and they have been fine. The plan is for a high fish load eventually, stocking over the next few weeks.

I'm currently dosing 70ml of Masterline Golden and Masterline Carbo daily. The Carbo is dosed all at once a couple of hours before lights on, and the Golden is dosed over 5 doses throughout the photo period to minimize denaturing of the fertilizers by the UV sterilizer. Based on tank water volume (minus sump volume), the Carbo is being dosed at the recommended amount while the Golden is supposedly the recommended amount but instructions said to double the dose if running UV so it may be considered to be half dose.

Given that I intend to stock heavily in the future and my plants are not particularly fast growing plants, I think that I will have sufficient nitrates and phosphates in the water column from feeding the livestock. From my understanding, Masterline Golden is very lean in nitrates, phosphates and potassium so that's fine. However, does it contain enough trace elements for the slow growing plants that I am keeping? I am concerned that because it ultimately does still contain nitrates and phosphates, I may end up with excessive amounts of these 2 macros when dosing to have enough potassium and trace elements, especially since it's quite lean in potassium too. The other comprehensive fertilizers available to me are APT Zero and Tropica Premium/Specialized. Once the tank is fully stocked, should I switch to either APT Zero or Tropica Premium which don't contain any nitrates and phosphates at all? In terms of price per litre, Tropica Premium is the cheapest for me, followed by Masterline Golden with APT Zero being significantly more expensive. Based on recommended dosage (not taking the UV sterilizer into account), Tropica recommends 35ml daily, Masterline 70ml daily and APT 60ml daily. I assume doubling all will account for the UV sterilizer, as recommended by Masterline. So it seems that by far Tropica Premium would be the most economical for me - however I have also read that Tropica's recommended dosage is very inadequate.

Long story short, based on the above, which of the 3 fertilizers should I dose for my tank in the long run, and how do I best determine how much I should actually be dosing daily notwithstanding the manufacturers' recommendations?

 

[Tim Harrison]

Not sure I'd use either in a tank that size, unless cost isn't an issue. Have you thought about using dry salts?

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Solufeed 2:1:4 and Solufeed Sodium Free TEC or Solufeed Coir TEC Combination

Dear UKAPS Members, Looks like most of you are looking for an alternative to several premixed fertilizer, which are either no longer available or has become hard to find in the UK. it appear as Solufeed brand has been quite the new trend for some of the members and it certainly looks promising...

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[Scaperinc]

Not sure I'd use either in a tank that size, unless cost isn't an issue. Have you thought about using dry salts?

EI DOSING USING DRY SALTS

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Solufeed 2:1:4 and Solufeed Sodium Free TEC or Solufeed Coir TEC Combination

Dear UKAPS Members, Looks like most of you are looking for an alternative to several premixed fertilizer, which are either no longer available or has become hard to find in the UK. it appear as Solufeed brand has been quite the new trend for some of the members and it certainly looks promising...

www.ukaps.org

Anyone who can afford 3 vivids a 7 ft tank and ada amazonia for that 7 foot tank, i think its safe to say they can afford any of the fertz mentioned above 😆

 

[illumnae]

Unfortunately I'm located in a country where salts are not easily obtainable, especially micros. I can get calcium nitrate, Potassium dihydrogen Phosphate and potassium sulphate with some effort (though not as cheaply as in America or Europe), but it's really hard to get micros/traces except for the brand name ones. I can dose potassium separately via potassium sulphate if it becomes an issue, but nitrate/phosphate isn't the biggest concern now because of my planned high bioload. So for trace elements I would have to go with the named brands.

There are other brands of fertilizers that I can get like API Leaf Zone and other local or Chinese brands, but not in bulk 4L/5L packaging to cut costs like the 3 I mentioned above. Maybe I can get Seachem Flourish 4L jug, but it would be similar in pricing to the Masterline Golden.

 

[illumnae]

Anyone who can afford 3 vivids a 7 ft tank and ada amazonia for that 7 foot tank i think safe to day they can afford any of the fertz mentioned above 😆

I would of course do it cheaper if I could, but as explained above it's really hard. I used to dose EI using salts purchased from hydroponics suppliers about 15-20 years ago in my earlier planted tanks, but my government clamped down completely on potassium nitrate back in about 2007 and during the time I left the hobby till now most of the hydroponics suppliers have closed down as it is not a popular hobby locally. Some of the chemicals are still available if you try hard enough, but I can't find any of the trace mixes

 

[Tim Harrison]

No worries, quite understand. But might be worth mentioning all in one horticultural dry fertz. We've been looking in to Solufeed for instance. Or are they difficult to come by too?

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Dear UKAPS Members, Looks like most of you are looking for an alternative to several premixed fertilizer, which are either no longer available or has become hard to find in the UK. it appear as Solufeed brand has been quite the new trend for some of the members and it certainly looks promising...

www.ukaps.org

 

[illumnae]

No worries, quite understand. But might be worth mentioning all in one horticultural dry fertz. We've been looking in to Solufeed for instance. Or are they difficult to come by too?

Solufeed 2:1:4 and Solufeed Sodium Free TEC or Solufeed Coir TEC Combination

Dear UKAPS Members, Looks like most of you are looking for an alternative to several premixed fertilizer, which are either no longer available or has become hard to find in the UK. it appear as Solufeed brand has been quite the new trend for some of the members and it certainly looks promising...

www.ukaps.org

I came across the Solufeed thread last week and tried to source for it locally but couldn't find it. Gardening and hydroponics are not popular in my country, as it is an urban jungle with not much space or greenery so the products are limited, and our consumer laws also don't really require full disclosure of information in relation to what products contain, so the locals that do buy these products just buy what the shopkeepers tell them works and just follow instructions without really caring much more than that. Makes it hard for me to repurpose other products for aquarium use since I don't know what it contains not just in terms of fertilizer composition but also if it contains additional harmful additives like pesticides

 

[Tim Harrison]

Go with the cheapest option then, Tropica Premium. But even with a high fish bioload I'd still be wary of N and K deficiencies, especially if you intend to plant heavily. Which incidentally is usually recommended

 

[illumnae]

Go with the cheapest option then, Tropica Premium. But even with a high fish bioload I'd still be wary of N and K deficiencies, especially if you intend to plant heavily. Which incidentally is usually recommended

Thank you! This is the tank when it was freshly planted about a month ago:

The area behind the sandy foreground is quite hidden at the moment but for reference it's about 8 bags of aquasoil and filled to the brim with Echinodorus and Cryptocoryne. I hired someone to scape the tank (I described my desired design to him and he climbed into the tank to make it happen) and I'm still trying to get him to come back to add more bolbitis and bucephalandra to the wood, but he keeps refusing and telling me that what is currently there is enough and I just have to wait for it to grow and fill out.

In terms of amounts to dose, is it safe to follow the recommended dosage by the manufacturer (doubled because of my UV sterilizer) or is there any indication on whether any of the brands are actually more accurate in their recommendations? For example if the general wisdom is that Tropica requires you to generally dose triple of what they recommend while APT is pretty accurate, then APT would actually be more cost efficient than Tropica despite Tropica being cheaper per litre.

For N and P, I have 1 more dosing pump head available that I'm not using. Can I mix Calcium Nitrate with Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate and dose that separately? Or should I just switch to Tropica Specialized/APT Complete? Or should I just dose Masterline Golden/Tropica Specialized from the outset since they contain rather lean proportions of N and P anyway? I find it confusing on how to first determine whether I need it and how to decide how much I need because I don't really know how much the livestock are outputting plus I also have soil substrate so I don't know how much extra I actually have to target.

Sorry that I'm being so clueless about this. I have been many years out of the planted tank hobby (except for some brief forays in a nano tank where I just dosed APT complete according to instructions and didn't have to think about it) and am totally not up to date on the hobby anymore. Even back in the day all I did was dose EI and not have to think any further.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Very nice scape, if you want more epiphytes go for it. Why not think about attaching them yourself?

I'd consider not using a UV steriliser, and think about your fish bioload. Planted tanks work differently to ordinary fish tanks. Plants and associated microbial communities will do a lot of the heavy lifting water quality wise. Then at least that's one less problem to worry about, not to mention better economics.

Is buying Tropica Specialised an option? This contains N and K as well as traces. You can mix and match this with Premium according to need. Regarding that think about using floating plants as nutrient status indicators. See link below to Darrel's @dw1305 excellent article/tutorial.

ADA Amazonia and substrate system should be good for a few months without N and K dosing. Just dosing traces will suffice for the time being.

What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?

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www.ukaps.org

 

[hypnogogia]

Nice tank. Needs way more plants.

 

[Scaperinc]

Looks great, keep us updated as it grows in

 

[illumnae]

Very nice scape, if you want more epiphytes go for it. Why not think about attaching them yourself?

I'd consider not using a UV steriliser, and think about your fish bioload. Planted tanks work differently to ordinary fish tanks. Plants and associated microbial communities will do a lot of the heavy lifting water quality wise. Then at least that's one less problem to worry about, not to mention better economics.

Is buying Tropica Specialised an option? This contains N and K as well as traces. You can mix and match this with Premium according to need. Regarding that think about using floating plants as nutrient status indicators. See link below to Darrel's @dw1305 excellent article/tutorial.

ADA Amazonia and substrate system should be good for a few months without N and K dosing. Just dosing traces will suffice for the time being.

What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?

What is the “Duckweed Index” all about? I’ve never written a proper “Duckweed Index” article, but, prompted by @GHNelson, I’ve written a short introduction. I’ll break it up into a series of posts (of which this is the first), mainly to avoid author (and reader) fatigue. There is a table of...

www.ukaps.org

I like using a UV sterilizer because I find that it helps alot with reducing disease causing pathogens and thus keeping fish healthier. I used to keep rare wildcaught fish so it was important to have even with proper quarantine. I just bought a new unit before deciding to go planted for this reshape so I don't think I will go without the UV sterilizer. I'm also going to be keeping discus in the tank so added firepower in the disease prevention department is always helpful.

I can get Tropica Specialized as well as Premium so that's an option too. However I may have to eat my words as after much digging I managed to discover a local wholesaler that may carry Rexolin APN. The obstacles are that I need to buy a 5kg bag which is way too much even for a tank the size of mine, and also that I need to find out if they are willing to just sell 1 bag to me. I dropped them an email but they haven't replied me yet. This opens up the option of me mixing my own fertilizers now - it still won't be as cheap compared to the brand names as in the UK or US, but rough napkin math shows that I can make a 5L batch (about 5 weeks for my tank at double dose) at about a quarter of the cost. I've downloaded the calculator Excel spreadsheet to have a look.

Assuming that I am able to get a 5kg bag of Rexolin APN and can mix my own ferts now, I have some questions:
1. Given the nature of the plants in my tank being mostly slow growers, what is the best fertilizer for me to clone? APT, Tropica, Masterline or maybe EI Low? I'll look into the duckweed index for amount to dose, but which one should I base my mix on?
2. I am able to obtain Magnesium Sulphate for Mg, but for Ca and K it's easier for me to get Calcium Chloride and Potassium Chloride. Is there a concern with using Chloride salts instead of Sulphate salts?
3. For nitrogen, I am able to get Calcium Nitrate and Urea pretty easily, and Ammonium Sulphate if I need to. Which is the best nitrogen source to use that will not pose a risk to my fish? My issue with Calcium Nitrate is that it's hygroscopic so it's much harder to store between making batches every 5 weeks
4. Do I need to also find a source for ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to mix my own fertilizers? Again, not something super readily available for me

Thank you!

 

[MichaelJ]

I like using a UV sterilizer because I find that it helps alot with reducing disease causing pathogens and thus keeping fish healthier.

I am in the same camp. I believe it helps reducing pathogens and algae spores in the water column, but the efficiency is definitely hard to quantify. I run mine (GMK 9w) 24/7 and change the bulb every 8 month or so. The GMK got a very low turnover which means the water that passes through the filter get a pretty long exposure to the UV light. No, it's not a substitute for water changes or general maintenance by any means and definitely belongs in the nice to have category as far as aquarium equipment goes.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[illumnae]

1. Given the nature of the plants in my tank being mostly slow growers, what is the best fertilizer for me to clone? APT, Tropica, Masterline or maybe EI Low? I'll look into the duckweed index for amount to dose, but which one should I base my mix on?
2. I am able to obtain Magnesium Sulphate for Mg, but for Ca and K it's easier for me to get Calcium Chloride and Potassium Chloride. Is there a concern with using Chloride salts instead of Sulphate salts?
3. For nitrogen, I am able to get Calcium Nitrate and Urea pretty easily, and Ammonium Sulphate if I need to. Which is the best nitrogen source to use that will not pose a risk to my fish? My issue with Calcium Nitrate is that it's hygroscopic so it's much harder to store between making batches every 5 weeks
4. Do I need to also find a source for ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to mix my own fertilizers?

Can anyone help me with my questions?

 

[Scaperinc]

Mate if you can afford it i would go with masterline or APT , start with them but do your reserch based on what results you want , i.e if you want red plants which need nitrate limitation then dont got one which has nitrates etc etc

 

[MichaelJ]

Can anyone help me with my questions?

I recently set up my 7 x 3 x 4 ft tank

Unless cost is an absolute non-issue, I would definitely do my own fertilizers for a tank of that size (2400 L). Plenty of threads here on UKAPS on how to roll your own. Check out the IFC Calculator - mentioned above to play around with targets and compounds (dry salts).

1. Given the nature of the plants in my tank being mostly slow growers, what is the best fertilizer for me to clone? APT, Tropica, Masterline or maybe EI Low? I'll look into the duckweed index for amount to dose, but which one should I base my mix on?

see above.

2. I am able to obtain Magnesium Sulphate for Mg, but for Ca and K it's easier for me to get Calcium Chloride and Potassium Chloride. Is there a concern with using Chloride salts instead of Sulphate salts?

I would choose the Sulphate based ones. A lot of Chloride (a trace element) is not ideal (also raises your EC unnecessarily), neither is a lot of Sulphate (a macro element) but you generally get less of it. If you go with MgSO4 and CaSO4 you would NOT be able to batch it (see below) though due to the low solubility of especially CaSO4. However when added as dry salt to the tank or WC water the solubility is not an issue.

3. For nitrogen, I am able to get Calcium Nitrate and Urea pretty easily, and Ammonium Sulphate if I need to. Which is the best nitrogen source to use that will not pose a risk to my fish? My issue with Calcium Nitrate is that it's hygroscopic so it's much harder to store between making batches every 5 weeks

Why not just use KNO3 ? or MgNO3 and dial down the amount of MgSO4 ? And monopotassium phosphate (KH2PO4) for Phosphate and some Potassium.

4. Do I need to also find a source for ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate to mix my own fertilizers? Again, not something super readily available for me

For the minerals (Ca/Mg) and NPK I would just measure out and add the dry salts.

For the trace elements use a blend such as PLANTEX CSM+B - easily batchable in distilled water with the addition of some potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid. (I keep mine for about 3-4 months with no precipitation or cloudyness developing - just need to be stored dark and at normal room temp).


Cheers,
Michael

 

[illumnae]

Unless cost is an absolute non-issue, I would definitely do my own fertilizers for a tank of that size (2400 L). Plenty of threads here on UKAPS on how to roll your own. Check out the IFC Calculator - mentioned above to play around with targets and compounds (dry salts).


see above.


I would choose the Sulphate based ones. A lot of Chloride (a trace element) is not ideal (also raises your EC unnecessarily), neither is a lot of Sulphate (a macro element) but you generally get less of it. If you go with MgSO4 and CaSO4 you would NOT be able to batch it (see below) though due to the low solubility of especially CaSO4. However when added as dry salt to the tank or WC water the solubility is not an issue.

Why not just use KNO3 ? or MgNO3 and dial down the amount of MgSO4 ? And monopotassium phosphate (KH2PO4) for Phosphate and some Potassium.


For the minerals (Ca/Mg) and NPK I would just measure out and add the dry salts.

For the trace elements use a blend such as PLANTEX CSM+B - easily batchable in distilled water with the addition of some potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid. (I keep mine for about 3-4 months with no precipitation or cloudyness developing - just need to be stored dark and at normal room temp).


Cheers,
Michael

Thank you very much for your guidance Michael! Just some of my responses to your suggestions

1. I've downloaded the calculator and have been playing around with it. My ignorance is which is the best formula to clone or target to aim for
2. So ideally I should go for MgSO4, CaCl and K2SO4 to avoid solubility issues?
3. KNO3 is banned in my country, no way for me to obtain it. I am also unable to find MgNO3. My available N sources are Calcium Nitrate, Urea and Ammonium Sulphate
4. I am trying to mix an All-In-One to dose in my dosing pump. I really do not want to be manually dosing anything. I have managed to source Potassium Sorbate and Vitamin C powder (is this the same as Ascorbic Acid? ), and white vinegar is easily available

 

[John q]

Vitamin C powder (is this the same as Ascorbic Acid?

Yes

 

[MichaelJ]

1. I've downloaded the calculator and have been playing around with it. My ignorance is which is the best formula to clone or target to aim for

Don't sweat it... your plants are not very demanding. You just want to make sure you get enough of NPK and Micros (Iron in particular which is already covered with Plantex CMS+B).

2. So ideally I should go for MgSO4, CaCl and K2SO4 to avoid solubility issues?

Yes, that would work for batching.

Are you using tap water? What is your water like in terms of KH, GH (Ca/Mg contents)?

3. KNO3 is banned in my country, no way for me to obtain it. I am also unable to find MgNO3. My available N sources are Calcium Nitrate, Urea and Ammonium Sulphate

What country are you living in? You should be able to obtain some NO3 compound - let’s find out. Be very careful with Ammonium (HN4) - it’s highly toxic if dosed incorrectly.

4. I am trying to mix an All-In-One to dose in my dosing pump. I really do not want to be manually dosing anything. I have managed to source Potassium Sorbate and Vitamin C powder (is this the same as Ascorbic Acid? ), and white vinegar is easily available

My advice is to keep the dosing of NPK and Micros separate to avoid interaction.

Cheers,
Michael