Tropica Premium, Masterline Golden or APT Zero?

[illumnae]

Yes

Thank you!

Don't sweat it... your plants are not very demanding. You just want to make sure you get enough of NPK and Micros (Iron in particular which is already covered with Plantex CMS+B).


Yes, that would work for batching.

Are you using tap water? What is your water like in terms of KH, GH (Ca/Mg contents)?


What country are you living in? You should be able to obtain some NO3 compound - let’s find out. Be very careful with Ammonium (HN4) - it’s highly toxic if dosed incorrectly.


My advice is to keep the dosing of NPK and Micros separate to avoid interaction.

Cheers,
Michael

I live in Singapore - there's no way for me to get KNO3 in solid form, what's available are the diluted liquid brand name types - if I get those then I probably should just get a brand name AIO. The only solid forn NO3 compound available is CaNO3.

My tap water is pretty soft, last I tested with API test kits it was at 0-1 for both gh and kh.

Any AIO I make would be very light on N and P though, as my tank is very heavily stocked and I also tend to feed heavily. I'm currently using Masterline Gold dosing at the recommended dosage (but running a UV sterilizer so technically it's half the recommended) and from my understanding Masterline Gold is super light on N and P, I think only 1.0 NO3 and 0.15 PO4 weekly. My tester frogbits for the duckweed index are bright green and multiplying, and I only just added the fish less than a week ago.

The Micros I've been able to find is Yaraterra Rexolin APN in 500g packs. I have to ship them in from Malaysia (delivery costs more than the fertilizers!) So I'm thinking of bringing in 2 packets and storing them in airtight containers with silica gel in the fridge.

If macros and Micros can't be mixed, then the calculator AIO recommendations are incorrect? Sorry no offense meant I'm just trying to understand.

 

[hypnogogia]

but running a UV sterilizer so technically it's half the recommended)

Why is it half the recommended dose with a UV steriliser?

 

[hypnogogia]

If macros and Micros can't be mixed, then the calculator AIO recommendations are incorrect?

It’s to stop the iron and phosphate from interacting. You can mix them, but then you also need to add ascorbic acid to lower the pH and thus avoid the chemical reaction from occurring.

 

[illumnae]

Why is it half the recommended dose with a UV steriliser?

Masterline states to double the recommended dosage if running a UV sterilizer, which I am, so if I dose the normal recommended dose it's actually half the UV recommended dose.

It’s to stop the iron and phosphate from interacting. You can mix them, but then you also need to add ascorbic acid to lower the pH and thus avoid the chemical reaction from occurring.

If I have potassium sorbate and Ascorbic Acid or white vinegar, will it be ok?

 

[MichaelJ]

I live in Singapore - there's no way for me to get KNO3 in solid form, what's available are the diluted liquid brand name types - if I get those then I probably should just get a brand name AIO. The only solid forn NO3 compound available is CaNO3.

My tap water is pretty soft, last I tested with API test kits it was at 0-1 for both gh and kh.

In that case with the low GH CaNO3 could actually be a good option for you. If you would front load the NO3 during weekly water change... So depending on what GH level you're targeting, you could remineralize with partial CaCl2 and CaNO3. How much water do you change and how often?

Cheers,
Michael

 

[hypnogogia]

If I have potassium sorbate and Ascorbic Acid or white vinegar, will it be ok?

Potassium sorbate is a preservative, so you’ll need that and the ascorbic acid will lower the pH, thus avoiding interaction between iron and phosphate. I think vimibar will work, but have never used it myself and it will dilute your salts more as you’re adding liquid.

 

[hypnogogia]

Masterline states to double the recommended dosage if running a UV sterilizer, which I am, so if I dose the normal recommended dose it's actually half the UV recommended dose.

Do they provide an explanation as to why? I’m dubious, seeing that other fertiliser manufacturers do not make this recommendation.

 

[MichaelJ]

Masterline states to double the recommended dosage if running a UV sterilizer

That seems like nonsensical advice. What is this based upon? How do you apply UV lights ? What’s the turnover vs. exposure vs wattage ?

UV light vs interacting with fertilizers needs to be understood in the specific context of its application. You just can’t say that you need to double the dose because your running a UV light… makes no sense. I’ve been running a separate UV filter internally 24/7 for quite a while now in both my tanks… I have not detected any drawbacks from this approach… initially I was worried about iron and phosphate etc breakage and availability but it turned out to be unfounded. Again, it depends on how UV is applied and how strong it is. Keep in mind that UV light constitutes about 3-5% of the light we get from the sun. One could fairly well argue that the application of UV light is actually a reasonable - if not natural, or perhaps important, if I dare say so - thing to do for our planted aquariums. Of course you don’t want to turn your tank into a tanning bed for your fish either.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[bazz]

In that case with the low GH CaNO3 could actually be a good option for you. If you would front load the NO3 during weekly water change... So depending on what GH level you're targeting, you could remineralize with partial CaCl2 and CaNO3. How much water do you change and how often?

Cheers,
Michael

This is what I do but after adding the desired amount of CaNO3 I then bring the calcium level up to the target level 50/50 with CaCl2 and CaSO4, and then deduct the nitrate from from the fertz recipe. The fabulous IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator does all the hard work (maths) for you.

 

[illumnae]

In that case with the low GH CaNO3 could actually be a good option for you. If you would front load the NO3 during weekly water change... So depending on what GH level you're targeting, you could remineralize with partial CaCl2 and CaNO3. How much water do you change and how often?

Cheers,
Michael

This is what I do but after adding the desired amount of CaNO3 I then bring the calcium level up to the target level 50/50 with CaCl2 and CaSO4, and then deduct the nitrate from from the fertz recipe. The fabulous IFC Aquarium Fertilizer Calculator does all the hard work (maths) for you.

I'm actually doing a constant drip 24/7 auto water change that changes about 10% water daily. I have a dosing pump that splits the daily dosage of AIO fertilizer into 5 equal doses throughout the photo period to reduce the amount of fertilizer lost to the water change.

Potassium sorbate is a preservative, so you’ll need that and the ascorbic acid will lower the pH, thus avoiding interaction between iron and phosphate. I think vimibar will work, but have never used it myself and it will dilute your salts more as you’re adding liquid.

No problem, I've managed to find a source for both potassium sorbate and Vitamin C powder, a little should go a long way based on the calculator so I can order 100g of each for now.

Do they provide an explanation as to why? I’m dubious, seeing that other fertiliser manufacturers do not make this recommendation.

That seems like nonsensical advice. What is this based upon? How do you apply UV lights ? What’s the turnover vs. exposure vs wattage ?

UV light vs interacting with fertilizers needs to be understood in the specific context of its application. You just can’t say that you need to double the dose because your running a UV light… makes no sense. I’ve been running a separate UV filter internally 24/7 for quite a while now in both my tanks… I have not detected any drawbacks from this approach… initially I was worried about iron and phosphate etc breakage and availability but it turned out to be unfounded. Again, it depends on how UV is applied and how strong it is. Keep in mind that UV light constitutes about 3-5% of the light we get from the sun. One could fairly well argue that the application of UV light is actually a reasonable - if not natural, or perhaps important, if I dare say so - thing to do for our planted aquariums. Of course you don’t want to turn your tank into a tanning bed for your fish either.

Cheers,
Michael

I'm running a 36W UV sterilizer with a flow rate of about 3500 litres per hour. I sized the UV based on AquaUV's charts for freshwater sterilization levels to tackle bacteria and parasites. The UV pump is separate from my sump return - I have it pumping from the sump return chamber into the sterilizer then back into the sump first media chamber.

What I read was that UV can degrade the chelators in fertilizers which would cause micros to precipitate and thus be ineffective. That is another reason that I dose my fertilizers multiple times a day instead of weekly or even daily, to cut down the effect of the UV on the fertilizers. What I figured was that I could mix 1.5-2x the amount of Rexolin APN into the AIO mix while keeping the same amount of macros as per the calculator. I know from experience that N P K Mg and Ca are not affected by UV in any way.

Due to my high stocking density and heavy feeding, I'm thinking of cloning Masterline Gold AIO due to its lean amounts of N and P. One thing I've noticed though is that APT, Masterline and Tropica all contain little to no calcium, and very small amounts of potassium and magnesium compared to what EI recommends. Should I just follow their recipes if I'm cloning one of them? I can also use distilled water if it makes calculations easier.

 

[MichaelJ]

What I read was that UV can degrade the chelators in fertilizers which would cause micros to precipitate and thus be ineffective.

That is true for especially iron and something to be aware of when applying UV light... Instead of potentially overdosing traces I would opt for just running the UV on a timer - say 8 hours a day and dose the micros when the UV is not running... say at the beginning of the photoperiod.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[illumnae]

That is true for especially iron and something to be aware of when applying UV light... Instead of potentially overdosing traces I would opt for just running the UV on a timer - say 8 hours a day and dose the micros when the UV is not running... say at the beginning of the photoperiod.

Cheers,
Michael

Thank you, I understand your recommendation but I'd rather keep the UV on 24/7 to absolutely minimize the risk of parasites or disease in the tank. Not everyone would agree with me on this and I respect that, but I'd rather risk the plants than the fish.

In addition, I also think that with my heavy stocking and feeding (I have slow feeding discus and greedy tetras so I have to overfeed to try and ensure the discus have enough food) I would probably have way too much N and P in the tank, which is why I have large Amazon Frogbit floaters in the tank and in the long run may even add Water Lettuce or even something like pothos, peace lily or monstera to soak up nutrients even more. I'm thinking of mixing up my AIO to only contain K, Mg and Ca at normal levels and Rexolin APN at 1.5x the recommended amount from the calculator. If I really find that I have insufficient amounts of N and P in the future, I will either reduce the number of floaters more often to reduce uptake or start adding N and P into the AIO next time. I figure that the floaters and potential terrestrial plants will help soak up excess nutrients including micros, and that not including P into the AIO would remove the concern about interaction with the micros. Keep in mind also that my plants are all slow growers like anubias, Java fern, bolbitis, echinodorus and cryptocoryne. The only high demand plant I have are the floaters. Also as mitigation I have 8 bags of Amazonia 2 which the echinodorus and cryptocoryne are planted in, and I also already have on standby Masterline root tabs which I plan on inserting into the substrate after 6 months then probably every 2-3 months thereafter.

Does this sound like a safe/good plan?

 

[MichaelJ]

Thank you, I understand your recommendation but I'd rather keep the UV on 24/7 to absolutely minimize the risk of parasites or disease in the tank. Not everyone would agree with me on this and I respect that, but I'd rather risk the plants than the fish.

Sure. Personally I run my UV 24/7 as well... and I do not dose more chelated traces because of that and got no signs of deficiencies. In any event, the application of UV is tricky and its value is very hard to quantify in a freshwater aquarium. It probably gives us a false sense security in many instances. Ultimately, to kill unwanted organisms we need a certain amount of mW-sec/cm2 (milliwatts per second per area) which varies quite a bit depending on the size and structure of the organism. For instance you can zap most bacteria and algae in the 10 to 40 mW-sec/cm2 range but fungi and protozoa (such as parasites) will require at least a consistent 80 - 100 mW-sec/cm2 which is not very common with inline sterilization where the flow is typically very high (i.e. contact time is low..) and wattage moderate ... and worth keeping in mind is that the needed effect grows if the water is opaque. I am not dissing the use of UV sterilization, just raising some of the concerns and pitfalls I am aware of - and there are undoubtedly more... such as the degradation curve of the UV bulb.

Does this sound like a safe/good plan?

with your mix of plants - all hardy slow growers I wouldn't be too worried. But personally I wouldn't rely on food and fish waste to provide for very essential macro plant nutrients ((Nitrogen and Phosphorus).

Cheers,
Michael

 

[illumnae]

What would you suggest I target for NO3 and PO4 weekly? I'm currently dosing Masterline Golden which I understand to have only 1ppm of NO3 and 0.15ppm of PO4 which to me seems fairly negligible. I've been dosing this since before I even put any fish into the tank. I think Tropica Specialized targets 7ppm/1ppm weekly based off my memory and APT even more than that.

I also notice that all 3 brands of fertilizers do not contain Calcium but do contain Magnesium, so should I add Calcium above what I'm already adding via Calcium Nitrate?

 

[hasan66]

What would you suggest I target for NO3 and PO4 weekly? I'm currently dosing Masterline Golden which I understand to have only 1ppm of NO3 and 0.15ppm of PO4 which to me seems fairly negligible. I've been dosing this since before I even put any fish into the tank. I think Tropica Specialized targets 7ppm/1ppm weekly based off my memory and APT even more than that.

I also notice that all 3 brands of fertilizers do not contain Calcium but do contain Magnesium, so should I add Calcium above what I'm already adding via Calcium Nitrate?

When I made tropica or my own salts, I always targeted 2N, in addition to 2N 0.2P, that is, 8.85ppm no3 0.612 phosphate.

 

[hasan66]

What would you suggest I target for NO3 and PO4 weekly? I'm currently dosing Masterline Golden which I understand to have only 1ppm of NO3 and 0.15ppm of PO4 which to me seems fairly negligible. I've been dosing this since before I even put any fish into the tank. I think Tropica Specialized targets 7ppm/1ppm weekly based off my memory and APT even more than that.

I also notice that all 3 brands of fertilizers do not contain Calcium but do contain Magnesium, so should I add Calcium above what I'm already adding via Calcium Nitrate?

no3 2.212 I set urea as 0.5ppm, this is 1N, I give 2N weekly.

 

[bazz]

What would you suggest I target for NO3 and PO4 weekly? I'm currently dosing Masterline Golden which I understand to have only 1ppm of NO3 and 0.15ppm of PO4 which to me seems fairly negligible. I've been dosing this since before I even put any fish into the tank. I think Tropica Specialized targets 7ppm/1ppm weekly based off my memory and APT even more than that.

This all depends on whether you want lean dose or go full EI. I personally go fairly lean and target/achieve 7ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4, 3ppm K and 0.15ppm Fe with the addition of 1 root tab/week placed in different areas of the tank. Your plants will tell you what they are lacking/require. Ultimately the choice is yours.

I also notice that all 3 brands of fertilizers do not contain Calcium but do contain Magnesium, so should I add Calcium above what I'm already adding via Calcium Nitrate?

Calcium raises GH so it depends on what you are targeting and what you are achieving, if you want to up the GH add more Calcium. Calcium Nitrate is best added to water change water or directly to the tank if this is not possible, and I would not bother to try and incorporate it into any mixed solution.
Cheers!

 

[illumnae]

When I made tropica or my own salts, I always targeted 2N, in addition to 2N 0.2P, that is, 8.85ppm no3 0.612 phosphate.

no3 2.212 I set urea as 0.5ppm, this is 1N, I give 2N weekly.

This all depends on whether you want lean dose or go full EI. I personally go fairly lean and target/achieve 7ppm NO3, 1ppm PO4, 3ppm K and 0.15ppm Fe with the addition of 1 root tab/week placed in different areas of the tank. Your plants will tell you what they are lacking/require. Ultimately the choice is yours.

Calcium raises GH so it depends on what you are targeting and what you are achieving, if you want to up the GH add more Calcium. Calcium Nitrate is best added to water change water or directly to the tank if this is not possible, and I would not bother to try and incorporate it into any mixed solution.
Cheers!

Thank you for sharing your personal targets! Given my slow growing plants I think that I'm more comfortable dosing lean than EI so comparing all the targets you shared plus the various AIOs on the calculator can give me a rough idea of what to target myself.

How about iron targets for micros? I see EI going as high as 0.5ppm, APT at 0.21 and most of the other AIOs going very lean in comparison at 0.06-0.08. I'm using Yaraterra Rexolin APN as my trace mix.

For gH, my understanding is that both Magnesium and Calcium increase gH but most commercial AIOs include Magnesium but not Calcium. Due to the fish I'm keeping (discus, angels, corydoras, etc South American fish some even wildcaught) I try to keep my gH and kH low but I'm ok to add some if needed by the plants. That's why I've been looking at what the branded AIOs target and I noticed that they mostly include small amounts of Magnesium and no Calcium.

If Calcium Nitrate is bad to incorporate into my AIO mix, would Urea then be a better choice? Based on my research on other threads in this forum, Urea is supposed to be dangerous if dosed weekly but OK if an autodoser is used to dose daily. I use an autodoser to split my AIO dose to 5x daily (once every 75 minutes - my photoperiod is currently 6 hours as the tank is only about 6 weeks old. I will eventually increase it to 8 hours) as I do a 24/7 drip auto water change so this reduces loss of fertilizers due to the water changes. If needed I can increase the number of doses per day to reduce any risk even more. I try to keep things in this tank automated like the dosing and water changes, that's why I'm trying to make an AIO instead of dry dosing or splitting macros and micros.

 

[bazz]

For gH, my understanding is that both Magnesium and Calcium increase gH but most commercial AIOs include Magnesium but not Calcium. Due to the fish I'm keeping (discus, angels, corydoras, etc South American fish some even wildcaught) I try to keep my gH and kH low but I'm ok to add some if needed by the plants. That's why I've been looking at what the branded AIOs target and I noticed that they mostly include small amounts of Magnesium and no Calcium.

I must stress this is what I do and it works for me, others will have far different methods and opinions. I find it easier to give you an insight rather than trying to explain.
To remin my water change water to a 3-1 ratio of Calcium-Magnesium I add CaNO3 and then bring it up to the desired 4dGH using 50/50 CaSO4 and CaCl2 and use MgSO4 for the Magnesium. I also add the desired amount of KHCO3 to bring the dKH to just <1. Calcium and Magnesium levels do not ideally want to fluctuate. Is your trickle system straight from the tap or a receptacle it may difficult to accomplish directly from the mains? I'm just speculating here but would imagine that a vast amount of users have high Calcium content and very little Magnesium in their tap water and Calcium whatever is notoriously difficult to add to a mixture of salts without precipitation.

How about iron targets for micros? I see EI going as high as 0.5ppm, APT at 0.21 and most of the other AIOs going very lean in comparison at 0.06-0.08. I'm using Yaraterra Rexolin APN as my trace mix.

I target 0.15 but the choice is yours, try different levels and see which is giving you the best results allowing a good few weeks in between before implementing any other parameters.

If Calcium Nitrate is bad to incorporate into my AIO mix, would Urea then be a better choice? Based on my research on other threads in this forum, Urea is supposed to be dangerous if dosed weekly but OK if an autodoser is used to dose daily. I use an autodoser to split my AIO dose to 5x daily (once every 75 minutes - my photoperiod is currently 6 hours as the tank is only about 6 weeks old. I will eventually increase it to 8 hours) as I do a 24/7 drip auto water change so this reduces loss of fertilizers due to the water changes. If needed I can increase the number of doses per day to reduce any risk even more. I try to keep things in this tank automated like the dosing and water changes, that's why I'm trying to make an AIO instead of dry dosing or splitting macros and micros.

In soft water Urea does not present so much of a problem and so after I have deducted the NO3 and K from the fertz recipe I make it up to the targets with KH2PO4 and then a a 50/50 mixture (for NO3) of KNO3 and Urea. This is dosed four times a week and Micro 3 times.
I am not advocating the use of Urea but it has worked for me for the last 3 years with no fish problems whatsoever.
Hope this helps, I'm not very good at explaining things, you have to try and find what works for you with what you have.

 

[hasan66]

Thank you for sharing your personal targets! Given my slow growing plants I think that I'm more comfortable dosing lean than EI so comparing all the targets you shared plus the various AIOs on the calculator can give me a rough idea of what to target myself.

How about iron targets for micros? I see EI going as high as 0.5ppm, APT at 0.21 and most of the other AIOs going very lean in comparison at 0.06-0.08. I'm using Yaraterra Rexolin APN as my trace mix.

For gH, my understanding is that both Magnesium and Calcium increase gH but most commercial AIOs include Magnesium but not Calcium. Due to the fish I'm keeping (discus, angels, corydoras, etc South American fish some even wildcaught) I try to keep my gH and kH low but I'm ok to add some if needed by the plants. That's why I've been looking at what the branded AIOs target and I noticed that they mostly include small amounts of Magnesium and no Calcium.

If Calcium Nitrate is bad to incorporate into my AIO mix, would Urea then be a better choice? Based on my research on other threads in this forum, Urea is supposed to be dangerous if dosed weekly but OK if an autodoser is used to dose daily. I use an autodoser to split my AIO dose to 5x daily (once every 75 minutes - my photoperiod is currently 6 hours as the tank is only about 6 weeks old. I will eventually increase it to 8 hours) as I do a 24/7 drip auto water change so this reduces loss of fertilizers due to the water changes. If needed I can increase the number of doses per day to reduce any risk even more. I try to keep things in this tank automated like the dosing and water changes, that's why I'm trying to make an AIO instead of dry dosing or splitting macros and micros.

I am aiming for 12/5 for calcium and magnesium, this is (10ppm mi caso4) (2ppm Cacl) (5ppm magnesium sulfate) As for iron, the ratios may vary, but the ratio I use is (3/1), that is (0.033ppm manganese)(0.1ppm iron) for my iron components. It is as follows (0.06ppm iron edta) (0.03ppm iron dtpa)( 0.005ppm iron eddha) (0.005ppm iron gluconate) I prepare my micros myself (0.019ppm boron) (0.0095ppm zinc) (0.023ppm copper) (0.005ppm molybdenum) (0.001 ppm nickel)