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The Root Among The Rocks

Deano3

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Hi everyone quick christmas update 😊
Tank ticking along nicely, seem to have some bba i think on rocks and plants at the left hand side but not to bad hoping was co2 related and will clear up, any help would be great ? Also green algae on rocks what doesnt bother me to much to he honest.

Had a few jumpers from my rummy nose so will have to top up unfortunately apart from that tank doing well, also have loads of snails again .

Wishing you all a great Christmas and hope to have another great year on this forum.

Thanks everyone for help and kind words i have received 😊
Dean
 

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Geoffrey Rea

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Tank ticking along nicely, seem to have some bba i think on rocks and plants at the left hand side but not to bad hoping was co2 related and will clear up, any help would be great ? Also green algae on rocks what doesnt bother me to much to he honest.

Hey @Deano3

Saw your green algae on the rocks thread and figured it best to discuss this on your actual journal. Is it green spot algae? Green dust algae? Unsure? How hard is it to remove?

Three questions:

- what info have you got on your source water from the water company in your area? If you can share a link to the water report without revealing your postcode that would help tremendously.

- what are you dosing the water column with and is this the permanent dosing regime for the future?

- what intensity of lighting are you intending to end on with your existing light unit? 50%? 100%?
 

Deano3

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Hey @Deano3

Saw your green algae on the rocks thread and figured it best to discuss this on your actual journal. Is it green spot algae? Green dust algae? Unsure? How hard is it to remove?

Three questions:

- what info have you got on your source water from the water company in your area? If you can share a link to the water report without revealing your postcode that would help tremendously.

- what are you dosing the water column with and is this the permanent dosing regime for the future?

- what intensity of lighting are you intending to end on with your existing light unit? 50%? 100%?
Hi @Geoffrey Rea thanks for responding 😊, firstly its hard to scrub off, toothbrush doesnt touch it and wire scrubbing brush does remove it with some hard work but would take a long time.i cannt tell what type of algae it is unfortunately, i dont mind a little bit of algae just dont want to get to much thats all.

Secondly i will add some pictures of my area testing results and some of the rocks and algae on the carpet and repens and small amounds round edge of buce what i think is bba is bba.

Thirdly i am dosing 5ml of seachem prime after water change and i dose 10ml of my AIO fertiliser daily what is made up from dry salts.

Currently i am at 75% light intensity as wanted decent colours from the rotala hra etc, dont want to go to high as dont want to be trimming to often etc i want to end up with good colours on reds and deep greens on carpet etc.

If you need any more information on my salts etc please dont hesitate to ask, also i have added the picture of my putflow thats hits a buce and breaks up the flow think i may have to remove the buce however the new lily pipes from aqua rio go deeper so thinking of upgrading to these plus they have a shrimp safe inlet to help. The right hand side of tank looks great with less algae even though a lot less flow as you can see on the repens on 1st pic.

Thanks dean
 

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Geoffrey Rea

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You’ve got nice tap water and a bomber of a scape @Deano3 😎

seem to have some bba i think on rocks and plants at the left hand side but not to bad hoping was co2 related and will clear up, any help would be great ? Also green algae on rocks

You’re feeding on your rocks:

1640900543401.jpeg


1640900558604.jpeg


You may find this is one potential source of the ‘problem’. Combined with running your Co2 quite high you may also find green dusting on your rock work preferable to BBA perhaps… organics and Co2 abundance.

Your tank is two months old though so early days mate. Things will get shipped in to a new scape when reusing plants from a previous setup. There’s a shot with green spot algae:

1640901471796.jpeg


Nip affected leaves like that off as soon as you spot them, you can see there’s new growth appearing. Will promote further growth too.

The right hand side of tank looks great with less algae even though a lot less flow as you can see on the repens on 1st pic.

The Co2 blasting towards the left will be placing a higher rate of demand on other nutrients locally. N, P and Co2 in balance. Rooted stuff will get by with substrate availability, your epiphytes may have a harder time.

Currently i am at 75% light intensity as wanted decent colours from the rotala hra etc, dont want to go to high as dont want to be trimming to often etc i want to end up with good colours on reds and deep greens on carpet etc.

If that’s the intensity you intend to stick at then cool. Just bare in mind adjusting your lighting has an overall affect on Co2 and nutrient demand. You don’t really want to be moving the goal posts.
 

MichaelJ

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You’ve got nice tap water and a bomber of a scape @Deano3 😎



You’re feeding on your rocks:

View attachment 179129

View attachment 179130

You may find this is one potential source of the ‘problem’. Combined with running your Co2 quite high you may also find green dusting on your rock work preferable to BBA perhaps… organics and Co2 abundance.

Your tank is two months old though so early days mate. Things will get shipped in to a new scape when reusing plants from a previous setup. There’s a shot with green spot algae:

View attachment 179131

Nip affected leaves like that off as soon as you spot them, you can see there’s new growth appearing. Will promote further growth too.



The Co2 blasting towards the left will be placing a higher rate of demand on other nutrients locally. N, P and Co2 in balance. Rooted stuff will get by with substrate availability, your epiphytes may have a harder time.



If that’s the intensity you intend to stick at then cool. Just bare in mind adjusting your lighting has an overall affect on Co2 and nutrient demand. You don’t really want to be moving the goal posts.



Please if you don’t mind Dean 🙏🏽

Can make a few suggestions then on how to feed your setup in different ways if you want as you’re using DIY ferts. Some methods run cleaner than others, some are more foolproof, some get you more colour from your stems.

Can make your own mind up as to whether they’re any use to you though. Maybe your all in one is already what’s needed 🤷🏻‍♂️ Either way, you’ve got your water report too so that takes out a lot of the guesswork if you want options 🙂

Is that tomato on that fork in pic1? I have to get in on that - I already do cucumbers, but my shrimps don't seem to care too much....

Cheers,
Michael
 

Geoffrey Rea

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Is that tomato on that fork in pic1? I have to get in on that - I already do cucumbers, but my shrimps don't seem to care too much....

Cheers,
Michael

Red pepper I think @MichaelJ
 

Deano3

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You’ve got nice tap water and a bomber of a scape @Deano3 😎



You’re feeding on your rocks:

View attachment 179129

View attachment 179130

You may find this is one potential source of the ‘problem’. Combined with running your Co2 quite high you may also find green dusting on your rock work preferable to BBA perhaps… organics and Co2 abundance.

Your tank is two months old though so early days mate. Things will get shipped in to a new scape when reusing plants from a previous setup. There’s a shot with green spot algae:

View attachment 179131

Nip affected leaves like that off as soon as you spot them, you can see there’s new growth appearing. Will promote further growth too.



The Co2 blasting towards the left will be placing a higher rate of demand on other nutrients locally. N, P and Co2 in balance. Rooted stuff will get by with substrate availability, your epiphytes may have a harder time.



If that’s the intensity you intend to stick at then cool. Just bare in mind adjusting your lighting has an overall affect on Co2 and nutrient demand. You don’t really want to be moving the goal posts.
Thanks for that @Geoffrey Rea 😊 I have noticed yesterday when having a good look that I am getting some bba around edges of various leaves on the left hand side aswel and on the carpet. I will do a good water change tomorrow and clean pipes etc along with pinching all the leaves with algae etc on there. You think due to this I should adjust lights to a little bit less intensity maybe 65-70 % , I am aware you said not to adjust to much and let the tank get used to a certain intensity.

I will also stop feeding on the rocks however its the rear left rock that gets the worst algae what makes me think it must be co2 related as rocks on the right get less co2 but lot less algae. I also want a deep green for carpet but hopefully once tank matures it will take shape and algae will go on its own.

Any tips on feeding where and how is best to add the red pepper and cucumber etc? (Yes it is red pepper by the way 😁)

Think I will, add more stones to front middle of the scape and must be to dark for the montecarlo to grow. Thanks so much for advice and good to know I have good water and thanks for kind words on the scape, looks better in person I am just terrible at pictures 🤣

Also you think i should move the buce for better flow on the front glass ? And what you think about nerite snails do you use them in your scapes?

Sorry for all questions 😊
 
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Geoffrey Rea

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I will also stop feeding on the rocks however its the rear left rock that gets the worst algae what makes me think it must be co2 related as rocks on the right get less co2 but lot less algae. I also want a deep green for carpet but hopefully once tank matures it will take shape and algae will go on its own.

Don’t really want to post photos of someone else’s scape on your journal @Deano3 it’s a bit rude, but will have to in order to get the point across.

See below the N, P, Co2 balance/imbalance being proposed below mate. Top left corner where the dosing tubes drop the ferts in:

1640978697718.jpeg


You can see the reduced growth of L. palustris localised around the dosing zone in the corner:

1640978719670.png


Colouration and growth speed is reduced right below the dosing tubes. It isn’t scorching causing the dampened colouration, nor is the reduced height of those stems accounted for by short internodes.

The Co2 also comes out of the lily outlet on that corner, so we’re talking differences a few inches apart. Instinct would suggest that being this close to the water column source of N, P and Co2 would result in increased growth. But we see the opposite, potentially due to heightened amounts of some but not the other.

You could fob this theory off. However, consider the effects of Co2 mist increasing N and P demands along the path of the mist. Now where do you see leaf deterioration on the edges of leaves? Is there BBA along the path of flow?

Consider your tank @Deano3 along the path of flow. Localised high Co2. How will you meet N and P? Why the rear left rock where Co2 mist accumulates after two 90 degree turns and downwind of organics breaking down from feeding?

This moves us onto a dosing strategy and what we set our Co2 injection rate at for an easier time in softer water. It also dictates where regular root tab placement will be of more importance.

Got more, but is this making sense?
 

Tankless

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Just to be clear, in the example given we would place the root tabs in the spot where the l.palustris is reduced in height?
 

Deano3

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Don’t really want to post photos of someone else’s scape on your journal @Deano3 it’s a bit rude, but will have to in order to get the point across.

See below the N, P, Co2 balance/imbalance being proposed below mate. Top left corner where the dosing tubes drop the ferts in:

View attachment 179159

You can see the reduced growth of L. palustris localised around the dosing zone in the corner:

View attachment 179160

Colouration and growth speed is reduced right below the dosing tubes. It isn’t scorching causing the dampened colouration, nor is the reduced height of those stems accounted for by short internodes.

The Co2 also comes out of the lily outlet on that corner, so we’re talking differences a few inches apart. Instinct would suggest that being this close to the water column source of N, P and Co2 would result in increased growth. But we see the opposite, potentially due to heightened amounts of some but not the other.

You could fob this theory off. However, consider the effects of Co2 mist increasing N and P demands along the path of the mist. Now where do you see leaf deterioration on the edges of leaves? Is there BBA along the path of flow?

Consider your tank @Deano3 along the path of flow. Localised high Co2. How will you meet N and P? Why the rear left rock where Co2 mist accumulates after two 90 degree turns and downwind of organics breaking down from feeding?

This moves us onto a dosing strategy and what we set our Co2 injection rate at for an easier time in softer water. It also dictates where regular root tab placement will be of more importance.

Got more, but is this making sense?
Yes it is making sense Geoffrey, I have always said I am not the best at certain ferts and what is required and for what purpose but I get the general idea.

yes your correct the bba is in the flow of the co2 for the most part , it does hit the bucephlanda dead on and that is fine but all the bba is on the left hand side of the tank in the montecarlo carpet and the staurogyne repens and the trident fern , it is just amongst parts of carpet and on the repens on edges and in middle but mainly edges of most leaves.

Think I Will remove the buce for better flow along the front so isn't broken up and tomorrow going to do a large water change and pick leaves and clean pipes etc as also noticed bba on the inlet lily pipe but this information is extremely helpful and most appreciated, I, ove this scape just want it to improve over time and get better colours and become a pleasure to live with. Looking forward to seeing more you have to say.

Thanks again Geoffrey
 

Geoffrey Rea

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Just to be clear, in the example given we would place the root tabs in the spot where the l.palustris is reduced in height?

You could but you’re fighting the tide. Localised Co2 will be very high around the outlet. Take advantage of the situation like a good aquascaper should, pick a plant that has an affinity for more extreme circumstances. You get rewarded:

1641158993827.jpeg


I, ove this scape just want it to improve over time and get better colours and become a pleasure to live with.

There’s plenty of folks on here that kindly state their weekly water column dosing regimes. Read around and see what may deliver what you’re looking for.
 

Deano3

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You could but you’re fighting the tide. Localised Co2 will be very high around the outlet. Take advantage of the situation like a good aquascaper should, pick a plant that has an affinity for more extreme circumstances. You get rewarded:

View attachment 179281



There’s plenty of folks on here that kindly state their weekly water column dosing regimes. Read around and see what may deliver what you’re looking for.
Thanks Geoffrey, i did large water change yesterday and must have removed a handfull of leaves that where holed and had algae etc must have been 100 leaves or so to promote new growth.

New session i will trim the repens and replant as getting a little tall , i also need to look up how to remove trident fern leaves a a few of them effected.

Would you then advise me dosing more ferts ? I currently dose 10ml and meant to be only 5ml of my AIO , do you think might be worth a try for now ? (I need to invest in a auto doser as my fish get very skittish when i go to tank before work and lights still off etc thats when i have had them jump)

Also any plant you would recomend for the shaded area at the front middle of the tank or would you beings the stones out more and maybe when trim bucephlandra add them to some rocks just trying to think what would look best any opinions welcome.

Dean
 

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Geoffrey Rea

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must have removed a handfull of leaves that where holed and had algae etc must have been 100 leaves or so to promote new growth.

When we make changes, like adjusting Co2, older growth gets left behind. If the plant is pouring in effort into newer growth then it really is best to nip those ‘had it’ leaves off. It seems like such a little thing, but all that matter will breakdown in the tank otherwise. It’s an oxygen thief. Those dying leaves are also blocking light and stealing space.

also need to look up how to remove trident fern leaves a a few of them effected.

Finger and thumbnail as close to the rhizome and pinch the affected leaves off. Nothing fancy, you’ll get plenty more in their place. If a bit tough, hold the leaf with one hand and feel your way down with the other and snip it off with spring scissors. You get a lot of decay held inside ferns as well. Pays to give them a rustle when you’re draining the tank at water change each week. It’s already being drained and all that crud goes bye bye for very little effort.

Would you then advise me dosing more ferts ?

The only advice is look around at other folks tanks who are having ‘success’ as defined by your goals. @Roland springs to mind. If memory serves, front loads the water change water with macros and doses low N with micros throughout the week. It’s a smart regime.

See what you can do with your water @Deano3 as it’s soft out of the tap. Here, going through the effort to create RODI water to target 4GH <1KH. That’s because I have to produce RO for the marine, UG tank and terrarium anyway. Otherwise it would be smarter to plant for the extremely hard water for the 1200 here. Doesn’t rain reliably so need a dependable source if you want to go soft.

There’s plants for every occasion and although ‘colourful’ is in trend, it is still a trend. Beautiful green tanks will always be classy. Grow the tank you want to see everyday mate.

If you’re adamant you want colour up, leaning heavily on your soil for N and P, with your soft water, is one way. Water column is K and micros with routine root tab top up’s into the substrate. It’s why they sell rich aquasoil for scaping. For me, relying on N and P mobility from the substrate means a green drop checker - happy fish. You won’t see fish gasping because of Co2 in any of the tanks here, refuse to do it.

That N-P-Co2 balance is driven by Co2 when you lean on soil dependency for N and P… if you tune the Co2 for green on your drop checker, your rooted plants will draw N and P through the roots to meet the demand set by Co2. Think Liebig’s law.

You’re forcing the plant to use a specific nutrient pathway. The water column is a means to an end at this point for Co2, micros and K… less distribution issues. With nutrients it’s location, location, location. As long as your fish feeding is consistent, you get predictable results.

Your epiphytes will need a helping hand with soil reliance at some point though. As general plant mass builds, mercy N and P dosing will be required or a better feeding regime with more fish. More plant mass, more uptake. Think classic ADA setups with their green drop checker and a ton of fish… that’s all we’re really replicating here.

Also any plant you would recomend for the shaded area at the front middle of the tank or would you beings the stones out more and maybe when trim bucephlandra add them to some rocks just trying to think what would look best any opinions welcome.

If it’s an opinion you’re after, let the current groupings grow out mate. It’s a really impactful scape with big features. Large groups of what is already in situ will look grand.
 

Deano3

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Great advice @Geoffrey Rea sorry for the late reply, i will always snip off holed or decaying leaves from now on as makes totall sense, will also look at rowlands dosing regime, been busy this week as back to work but did water change today and got a few pics. Thanks again loving this tank going to get more rummy nose soon as had a few jumpers. Trimmed the repens on left and replated some tops also trimmed the rear right of the tank but didnt replant as already packed.

looking forward to The crypts growing in a bit but they always seem to take a long time.

Dean
 

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