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The Nymph's Spring (EA900)

I think the best solution is to get so many that they physically cannot hide. Effectively a khuli loach substrate. That's meant sarcastically but I really like them. I've not kept them for a long time as I always thought they were little egg hoovers. Looks like that's not happened in your tank though. I think as long as they have enough hiding spots (preferably fairly narrow tubes) and you have a group of them (minimum 6) they're quite confident, especially when there is food. I had them with dwarf puffers though, so there wasn't much competition for food and no boisterous fish to frighten them.
 
How many khulis do you currently have?
I like fish like this tbh as it's nice and exciting to see glimpses of them from time to time. They also seem to make me actually stop and look at every inch of the tank in the hopes of seeing them which makes me see things I'd normally miss.
My tank is right next to where I sit, so I can be quiet and still and things happen that you wouldn't see if you just pressed your face to the glass a few times a day. I really like poco pozo and bucket of mud, for Toms use of fish that cover a vast array of niches. I doubt khulis actually add much to the bioload of any tank, never mind a fully grown in planted tank, so I'd suggest you keep them for the fleeting glances you get but adding more will definitely help.
Well this is the thing, I have the same attitude about fish as you described, when I first started reading Tom's Poco Pozo I think I stayed up really late just going through it all and admiring it, it really changed how I thought fishtanks could be. And the lights do get me to inspect every cm of the tank for an illusive glimpse, they're a bit like unicorns. But I would like to see them out and about and obviously comfortable and happy as I did today. Perhaps over the next 2 months that they're in the new tank position I'll come to love them again.

I currently have 7, had 8 but one jumped out quite early on. I was thinking of having 15-20 if I did have more, I do feel that the number I have now isn't quite enough for them to feel comfortable. Over the past year I feel more and more suspicious of the minimum 6-8 rule for so many fish, and wonder if it's more like 15, 20, 40, 100+ in reality, we just can't do that too often. That's one of the reasons I liked Tom's Poco Pozo, it felt generous in the stocking, but not overstocked at the same time cos they had their different niches. I think I might fall in love with them again if with this new easy of seeing the tank I get to see their antics more, they are very charming on the rate occasions they appear and before I even had a tank they were the fish I wanted the most.

I think the best solution is to get so many that they physically cannot hide. Effectively a khuli loach substrate. That's meant sarcastically but I really like them. I've not kept them for a long time as I always thought they were little egg hoovers. Looks like that's not happened in your tank though. I think as long as they have enough hiding spots (preferably fairly narrow tubes) and you have a group of them (minimum 6) they're quite confident, especially when there is food. I had them with dwarf puffers though, so there wasn't much competition for food and no boisterous fish to frighten them.
I wonder what 50 together would look like! Then I think I'd at least see one or two sometimes. I read they would eat the eggs/babies too, but either they weren't interested or Motherfish kept them away. I did keep a desk light on the tank for the first 3 days when they were very tiny so she would be able to see any kuhlis coming near her. For a while I was very suspicious that they were greedy conniving predators, but then I realised they're really just stupid little wiggles who would only eat fry/eggs if they accidentally stumbled upon them untended. I am keeping the 60L, so I could keep them in that (in a blackwater style), though I was thinking this could be my breeding tank so might only contain some pygmy cories or some other small fish that definitely wouldn't eat fry. The kuhlis do like swimming about madly sometimes and I think they would enjoy the big tank, which will have wood and lots of leaves and heavy planting for them to hide in. They really like the margins of the sand inbetween grasses too.

They've been quite shy since I first got them, there was one which would come out a lot at first but that stopped. I think 7 isn't really enough yet. When I move the babies to the new tank, I might try adding 3 or 4 more to the 60L to see if that changes them a bit.
 
I've wrote about it before but I had a group of 200 or so khulis to look after and you only saw a dozen or two at a time but it was pretty constant. They definitely become more secure in big groups but I do think that group has to be massive to get a lot of visual activity out of them. They are quite outgoing in more stained water, probably because they feel safer.

I know your a more is more person with plants but I heard a nice general rule for fish recommended that I really like but most others won't. It's basically the three species rule, so no matter how big your tank you only have three main species in there (the odd bristletooth or apisto pair doesn't really count). It means in a massive tank you are encouraged to have massive groups of fish rather than a mish mash of species. It's like the classic angelfish with a schooling tetra and cories.
 
To be honest I think the 3 rule isn't a bad one, I was thinking along similar lines for this tank. I am more is more with the plants and the designs, but not about cramming as many fish types in as possible. I'm more is more about fish happiness lol, what their needs are and how I can encourage really interesting natural behaviour with them is most important. One of the big reasons I got this bigger tank is that I felt my otos weren't quite happy, I think I need more of them, especially now they are quite big and fat.

In a v boring zoom call this morning so thinking about future stocking...

Definitely -
2 - 3 apistogramma macmasteri
10/12 otocinclus

Schooling fish - I'd like a good-sized school of small fish, ideally which have interesting behaviour. I've never really let myself had a proper look at these fish in the shop because I didn't have the space for them, so these are all options which I want to see irl to really appreciate them. Ideally I want something which has interesting behaviour somehow, but maybe a simple pretty school would be nice. Would be interested in what people think, what your favourites are, etc.
green neon tetras
ember tetras
X-ray tetras (would be a smaller school, maybe secondary school)
chilli rasbora
lambchop rasbora
Any other rasboras? I don't know much about them. Not really want kubotai as want to get some colours in other than green.

Pencilfish - hockeystick - look super interesting and quite funny, but they aren't particularly colourful. Is it worth it for the behaviour?
Pencilfish - Nannostomus marginatus
Threadfin rainbows - these are bigger but look like they're quite funny and have tiny mouths so don't eat fry apparently. Not sure if they jump?
dwarf rainsbows - not sure if the tank is big enough? but they do look small and beautiful

Pygmy corydoras - I have 10 of these in my 45L tank and they are extremely cute, I feel like 30/40/50 in a group could be fab. Probably the oens we have will go into the 60L and add a few more anyway.

Other Fish
15++ kuhli loaches (may go in the 60L which would be blackwater which I imagine they'd like a lot. The 60L may turn into a 90L once the new main tank is set up, so it's got a 60x40 footprint which I think would be appreciated, with lots of riparium foliage at the top. But also this might be a breeding tank so idk, maybe the 45L becomes a breeding tank instead
15 corydoras habrosus/panda corys/aspidorus (still a bit unsure as people say that corys don't go with apistos, but I had some leopard corys whe I was like 3 and they were my favourite, wondering if the small ones I could get away with. My motherfish isn't that agressive, she chases rather than injures)
6 dicrossus filamentosus/dicrossus maculatus - depends on how much rainwater I can get in there, if I bred them it would be in the blackwater but general living in the main tank.
Amanos - depends on the water as well.
15 rosy loaches - these look quite sweet, and my name is Rosie so keeping them amused me
10 dwarf chain loaches - probably the same problems as with the corys, not sure about shyness.
Darter tetras - if I could find, these look v interesting, not sure if would need full rain

So it would be:
Apistos
Otos
1 big school
1 lot of "other fish"
maybe a smaller school or some other random fish perhaps, to decide once I've stocked the tank if it seems ok
I'm not sure if the tank is big enough for 2 schools. Like maybe a mix of pencils and tetras/rasboras ? or pygmy corys and rasboras/tetras/pencils. But would wait and see what it looks like with the one - I think I'd rather have 1 good sized confident school.

Anyone have any suggestions? Also interested in weird 'Other fish' that have funny behaviours that my apistos won't absolutely hate lol
 
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I've wrote about it before but I had a group of 200 or so khulis to look after and you only saw a dozen or two at a time but it was pretty constant. They definitely become more secure in big groups but I do think that group has to be massive to get a lot of visual activity out of them. They are quite outgoing in more stained water, probably because they feel safer.
Also where have you written about all these kuhlis before? Got any pictures? 👀
I'd go for killifish or pseudomugil rainbows rather than tetras, rasbora or threadfin rainbows. Just personal preference nothing against any of them.

If you do consider killifish I think the following would be of interest, if you've not seen it already: giant tank for killis
Oooh yes those pseudomugil rainbows are lovely! Is there behaviour very cool? They are definitely on the list of potentials. The only thing is that I'll be aiming for a pH of 6.5ish, not sure if they'd be happy with that.

I have seen that journal before, it's absolutely beautiful... but that was before I got this new big tank, it's nice to look at them again now with new eyes and think what ideas I can pilfer!! I hadn't considered killifish at all, aren't they very predatory? I'm not going for explicitely non-fry eating fish, but I'd like it if the occasional fry survived.Do you have any recs for particular killis?
 
Is there behaviour very cool?
The males do some pretty extravagant displays. Similar to threadfins really, I just find threadfins to be a bit dull in terms of colour.
pH of 6.5ish, not sure if they'd be happy with that
P. gertrudae and P.iriani will be fine with that. There's a killi for every occasion so you shouldn't have any problem finding one that matches your parameters. Actually finding the fish will be the hardest part but you can often get eggs posted to your door and then you get to enjoy raising them from eggs. For most of the commonly kept species they seem to prefer slightly cooler 22-23 degrees Celsius but I think that's mainly for breeding and possibly increases longevity slightly.
aren't they very predatory?
Some are more so than others. I think something like Epiplatys annulatus would be ok with fry. They're quite small and spend most of their time near the surface (assuming there's vegetation for cover). I've kept Fundulopanchax gardneri 'Jos Plateau' but wouldn't risk them with fry, they're very aggressive to one another and I imagine they might be able to stand their ground with some cichlids. I think Aphyosemion are generally considered to be more peaceful but I'm sure that's more of a rough guide than a rule. Aphyosemion australe are quite easy to get hold of and are supposedly quite peaceful but every time I've seen them they are lurking in the middle to lower layers of the tank so might make your apistos a little uncomfortable. Lampeye Killifish (Poropanchax normani) are another one that's easy to get hold of and I don't think they'd cause any problems.
 
Hi all,
I just find threadfins to be a bit dull in terms of colour
You can't go by them in the LFS. They <"colour up really well when they are happy">, you get a real <"turquoise sheen to the body"> on the males, and you have the fin-flicking display as well.
I think something like Epiplatys annulatus would be ok with fry. They're quite small and spend most of their time near the surface (assuming there's vegetation for cover).
They are fine, but they jump and they aren't the easiest to keep.
Lampeye Killifish (Poropanchax normani) are another one that's easy to get hold of and I don't think they'd cause any problems.
I've had all <"three of these as dithers for Apistogramma">, and they all worked OK.

cheers Darrel
 
@dw1305 I stand corrected. I knew rainbows tend to look washed out in LFS tanks but most pictures/videos/setups I've seen them in they've always looked washed out. In that case I'll get some as their fins and display routine are fantastic.
My friend had Epiplatys annulatus in with a pair of Apistogramma baenschi inka. He didn't report any problems but as you say they do jump so need a good lid. Same with most Killis though.
 
Hi all,
In that case I'll get some as their fins and display routine are fantastic.
If I see the in a shop I always have a look to see if there are any females. Usually it is just males, but you really want a mix of ~ two males to five females.
My friend had Epiplatys annulatus in with a pair of Apistogramma baenschi inka. He didn't report any problems but as you say they do jump so need a good lid.
They are good dither, but great jumpers. They are another fish <"that I will keep again">. I'd definitely get a <"vestigial winged Drosophila culture"> for them.

cheers Darrel
 
Very interesting discussion about these lovely fish @ScareCrow and @dw1305.

The males do some pretty extravagant displays. Similar to threadfins really, I just find threadfins to be a bit dull in terms of colour.

P. gertrudae and P.iriani will be fine with that. There's a killi for every occasion so you shouldn't have any problem finding one that matches your parameters. Actually finding the fish will be the hardest part but you can often get eggs posted to your door and then you get to enjoy raising them from eggs. For most of the commonly kept species they seem to prefer slightly cooler 22-23 degrees Celsius but I think that's mainly for breeding and possibly increases longevity slightly.

Some are more so than others. I think something like Epiplatys annulatus would be ok with fry. They're quite small and spend most of their time near the surface (assuming there's vegetation for cover). I've kept Fundulopanchax gardneri 'Jos Plateau' but wouldn't risk them with fry, they're very aggressive to one another and I imagine they might be able to stand their ground with some cichlids. I think Aphyosemion are generally considered to be more peaceful but I'm sure that's more of a rough guide than a rule. Aphyosemion australe are quite easy to get hold of and are supposedly quite peaceful but every time I've seen them they are lurking in the middle to lower layers of the tank so might make your apistos a little uncomfortable. Lampeye Killifish (Poropanchax normani) are another one that's easy to get hold of and I don't think they'd cause any problems.
Sadly I think most of the killis aren't quite right, although they are absolutely stunning, I think you're right about them being too low with the apistos, really I want the schoolers to be a mid-top level fish. The Epiplatys annulatus are super beautiful, but this tank has a lid so I don't think they will live very long for me, tis a shame as they're a really beautiful fish. It's similar to the hatchetfish, I would have them if they wouldn't almost certainly all jump out! Your friends combo of them and Apistogramma baenschi inka sounds like a gorgeous combo.

When I first got fish, I wanted some schooling fish and at the shop couldn't decide between kubotai rasboras or lampeyes. In the end I went with the kubotai and almost immediately killed them all with my inexperience (and then joined here). I'd definitely get them in the future, as the lampeyes are very ghostly beautiful, but I think they work better with a lowerlight lowtech tank as they would stand out better than in my blue-background one.

Hi all,

You can't go by them in the LFS. They <"colour up really well when they are happy">, you get a real <"turquoise sheen to the body"> on the males, and you have the fin-flicking display as well.
Hi all,

If I see the in a shop I always have a look to see if there are any females. Usually it is just males, but you really want a mix of ~ two males to five females.

Absolutely beautiful fish! Hopefully I could make them happy, good to know that they need a bit of love before they really get to their best. I'll keep in mind the gender ratios, what do you do if there are 8 males and 2 female,s not get the females? Will get be harrassed too much?


Well after this I've spent the evening watching youtube videos and I think the Threadfin Rainbows & the Pseudomugil rainbows (either the neon orange iriani or the white & yellow spotted gertrudae) are definitely at the top of the list. They look very impressive! Interestingly for the Pseudomugil I've seen them sold as eggs on ebay to raise which I haven't really noticed before except for killies, and never thought I might attempt! 😂 Quite reasonable too, 40 eggs for £25 is much cheaper than the fish themselves would be I think. They seem specialist enough that I won't be able to see them in shops and compare, so would def be interested in hearing from more people who kept them!

1_IriatherinaWerneriDaveWilson.jpg
Even though their bodies aren't too colourful, the pastel yellow & bright pink fin edges with the black is super striking! And they've got an unusual shape with fins so long which I find rather interesting.

gertrudae-tetra.jpg
These fish are so pretty, I think if I don't have enough lightness in the tank I might add them, they look so summery and joyful, like they're wearing chiffon polkadot dresses, a little Marilyn Monroe fish. Also love those little yellow fins and the way they look like bobbing rabbit ears.

Pseudomugilluminatus1.jpg
Again, loving the yellow pecs, these ones have such a delicious orange colour, and I love their bright blue eyes.
 
Yesterday I cleaned out the small waterbutt in the garden, which was about 60L or so. I replaced that with an absolutely massive secondhand waterbutt which my dad had stored behind the shed but never set it up, it's a good 200L+, so will be great for the new tank bigger water changes. I put most of the water from the smaller butt in the new aquarium, but I need about 40L extra before I can add the baby fish, and I have to wait until Friday to get it at the allotment as I need the car.

In the meantime, I've added 3 packs of blackworms to the new tank, which now has an air of Guillermo del Toro's The Strain about it, the playsand I added seems to be too fine (and compact?) for them to bury themselves in, so they're travelling about looking for leaves and seedpods to hide under. If a normal person had a look in the tank right now they'd be horrified, luckily we know better, worms are great! 😂




I watched this video last night and it looks really great, I'm a big fan of Filipe's aquascapes, they always look very natural with great plant mixes. Interesting to see the way he puts together the wood, then rocks and uses some expanding foam to 'glue' it all together. In the video he talks about how he adds lots of extra nutrients to the soil when starting, so he doesn't need to dose such a large amount of fertiliser later on, which I haven't come across before. Any thoughts on that?

I'm still umming and erring over whether to use fancy ADA aquasoil, or just normal soil with a sand cap. For my currently 60L tank the normal soil worked well, but it did up the water hardness for a long time (in fact it might still be, I havne't bothered to check for months). I am quite attracted to the idea of the soil buffering the water down, as well as not having to worry about the soil coming up past the sand whether I replant things (which I do like to do quite a lot), and that if I did a future rescape it would be easier. How much soil do you think is needed for a 180L tank with a potentially fancy aquascape? The size of the tank is big enough that I think some bigger slopes would work well to create a proper landscape.
 
Well, I'm afraid to say that the MTS has spread...

Today my dad found a 100cm(l)x40(d)x30(h) second hand tank for £65 locally, so we're gonna put my 45L+60L in storage and make a "pond" tank with riparium. Not sure if it will be blackwater or still green underneath yet, damn you all for tempting me earlier in this thread (but also I LOVE IT HOORAY!). Won't start it until the big one is set up... probably
 
If you combine the 45 and 65 into this new tank then technically you are reducing the number of tanks you have:D it's when you decide in a weeks time to keep them running as well that you know your an addict.
 
If you combine the 45 and 65 into this new tank then technically you are reducing the number of tanks you have:D it's when you decide in a weeks time to keep them running as well that you know your an addict.
That's how I sold it to the family! I'm going from 4 to 3... let's ignore that there's an added 200L! I would like to keep one of the smaller ones going as a breeding/fry/quarantine/spare plants kinda tank, having an extra is just very useful, though I've no idea where it would go so will have to do some thinking 😂 If we had a bigger house there would be no limit to the tanks! One day I really want a macroalgae saltwater tank too.

In a way I'm adding another one later this summer, we're changing up part of the garden and adding a good-sized patio, and I'm planning on putting a nice big water trough pondette in, though have to plan it around the foxes.
 
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Well this is the big tank right now - I set it up as just sand, leaves, twigs and seedpods, with an old bit of driftwood from the garden and @EA James beautiful java fern needle leaf, but then I decided I wanted it to be fancier to I also added the moss-covered wood for my 23L desk nano tank (journal here), cos it looked a bit bare, and I think more plants never hurts to help the water quality. I'm sure the shrimps won't mind, it can go back later lols. When I set the tank up properly this wood will return to the nano :)

I've just added 7 babies, most disappeared immediately but two hid under the front leaves looking rather stressed going very dark, then very light within 30 seconds, then they started to swim towards the back. I saw one go for a blackworm before it disappeared, so I'm hoping that's a good sign. I think I'm going to add the rest tomorrow, just in case there's something wrong and I find the first few dead (this would make me very sad :( ). There are some bladder snails and some tiny cherry shrimps in there, which look fine after a few days so I hope things are all ok, I tested the water and it was all fine, and the filter has a lot of mature media in it. Fingers crossed, this is rather stressful, they are so cute and I see the intelligence in their baby fish eyes, apistos really are very special.
 
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Woke up this morning and the babies seemed fine in the new tank, so I've been transfering them all over. So far I've caught 36 total, with at least 1 still eluding me. The fry plastic bottle trick worked great, I put some blackworms in the bottom and they were easy to catch. I caught Motherfish twice, but she finally seemed to learn not to go in. Right now the babies are very shy in the new tank, and are patrolling around in groups of 2 and 3, I'll take some more photos today and tomorrow.

Happy Mother's Day to you all, Motherfish is celebrating the release from her duties!
 
Ok so we're a day into the babies being moved in (except for 2 elusive babies who don't seem interested in blackworms, will be trying bbs tomorrow), and they're LOVING IT. I'm so glad @alto suggested doing this, they're all out in the front together exploring and it's so cute and peaceful. They don't hide any more now Motherfish isn't there to harrass them, and they travel about finding different groups to be with, exploring in the seedpods and under leaves and all sorts. I've already seen them do some new behaviours, I've got v fine playsand which the bigger ones have started to sift while eating, and some of them are travelling up to the floating plants and look like they're trying to find small insects. Something that's beautiful to see, but so far impossible to photograph is that they school together often in a big group. Their colours have also become more apparent and beautiful, the males are a lot more yellow with more sparkle. I do wonder if I have more males than females, it's still quite hard to tell, they're about 2 - 3 long total atm.

Some photos -
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Ok the cutest thing happened this morning which I don't have pictures of, but I'm going to try to get some or some video in the next few days.

So this morning I had the lights off in the tank, and just before the lights on, I looked in the tank and was worried that I couldn't see ANY babies anywhere and thought "have they all died suddenly, what oh no!?" (but with more swearing).

So I turned the lights on to see better, and that's when when all of babies suddenly charged together in a shoal from the back. They seem to be resting at the back behind the wood in the right corner together, and as soon as the light went on all together as a shoal they swam to the left around the wood, and then did a U turn to the front, staring at me ready for their first meal of the day. Ughh it was soooooo cute, I love the way they group up together. I suppose at some point they'll start to get aggressive with each other as they become adults, but right now it's lovely how they are all pals. Depending on the mix of genders in the babies (it's still hard to tell), if I have excess males then I might keep a group of them in the end rather than 1m 2f, and give away motherfish to a responsible person who wants to try breeding.

---

Also I went to pick up my new 100x40x30 tank last week, which was close to a Maidenhead in West London so of course had to pop in and have a look, and they had a very lovely big group of Dicrossus Filamentous that were very interactive and cute. I'm definitely going to get some of these for one of the new tanks (probably the new one I picked up, which will be 100% rainwater with blackwater pond riparium vibes). I think all the ones they sold were females though, none of them had lyretails but they were only about 3cm long. Either way, very sweet and reminded me a lot of my apistos.
 
Curiosity caught the fish...

PXL_20210322_170858562.jpg

Preparation for Wednesday, when the first few will go to their new home. I chucked the nets in so they're less afraid of them, and they just swam right in! 😂 Going to wave them about a bit today and tomorrow while feeding to make it even easier.
 
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