Its a tough call mate. Personally I'd run this as a closed system, euthanize the sickly fish as and when it seemed the leser of two evils and when all the critters have passed, which could be weeks or months, do a complete re start.
Caveats to the above is your personal health. If you've any existing conditions that would weaken your immune system then the risks to yourself need pushing to the forefront.
If your health is good and you practice sensible tank hygiene then I don't see why you couldn't manage this tank longterm.
I suppose the question is Rosie do you need time to mourn, or would an instant clean break be best? Only you can answer that.
I am in good health, but my dad is a bit less so and he gets eczema on his hands which I think makes dealing with the tanks dodgier. We have got gloves for all the tanks coming today, but it's just so easy to put your hands in not thinking! He doesn't do anything to do with this tank, but I think we can assume it is in his one too as we shared buckets and pipes until recently (when I started reading about the TB, but the pencils had been in the tank almost 2 months by then).
I don't think I can bear to do an instant clean break, I think it would be too depressing seeing an empty tank for the weeks and months after. I will change the scape eventually because tbh this one is feeling quite tainted, but will wait for a few months and watch the fish for any decline/improvements while saving up and working out what that next scape could be, and if the fish seem well enough for them to live in it. I do have an idea for it, but I would need to wait for my friend who would help to be less busy too which will be in late May. If I've got to do this, I'm going to make something f*cking fabulous next to make it worth it. Even though this has been awful, it doesn't make me love the hobby less, or want to quit or anything, I've just recieved a particularly bad bit of luck. Such is life!!
I really do feel for you. I don't think that there is an easy answer here.
It seems like there are some main disease-causing (rapidly fatal) strains and some that are present all the time in the environment and only strike if a fish is weakened or stressed.
I guess the better question is why one species of MB suddenly reproduces so aggressively. It's a shame the vets weren't able to tell you the exact type but I realise that there are cost implications to more tests. I also note ' Mycobactum are relatively common in aquarium fish' on the report. I genuinely suspect that many fish have MB granulomas.
In humans, granuloma formation is typically the chronic not acute form of TB, though it's one of the reasons it is so hard to treat.
I see no harm in giving everything a good clean, perhaps in stages and as John says run it as a closed system. Sadly I suspect unless there has been no cross over of substrate, filter media, nets etc the other tanks are quite likely infected.
🙁
To give an idea of the lengths that you need to go to to truly remove it from a system see:
Overview of a Disease Outbreak and Introduction of a Step-by-Step Protocol for the Eradication of Mycobacterium haemophilum in a Zebrafish System
Unless the shop that you got the fish from has bleached it's entire system I suspect that most of their fish will have some degree of infection.
Thank you for another useful link!!
I think the closed system is the best way for now. I am wondering are the fish going to continue to die like before? Since I have killed the pencils no other fish have died which I think is a good sign. I think it is worth it to see if it progresses further or not for a while at least, and if they do then I know that euthanising is the course forward. TBH I'm mostly waiting to see if the apistos are gonna suffer from it, they were born and raised in my tanks and they are the ones I feel worst about. I also feel bad for the kuhli loaches, as they can live for 10 years, I suspect they are happily living in caves in the tank, even if I never see them. I was going to give them away one day but can't do that any more.
Personally I won't be going to the shop I bought the pencilfish from again, just in case. Though I still think it's impossible to really tell if they brought it in, it could be they caught it in my tank and were very swiftly affected. That quite a few fish of other species suffered from it as well in the past 2 months makes it even more confusing. It's all a big grey area, a very frustating disease. The pencilfish themselves never seemed stressed to me at all, they were my least shy fish up to the end. If anything they stresed out the other fish by being so bolshy!
This is what I don’t get either, surely this must be in every aquarium shop around or nearly every one. Regardless of whether shops quarantine this will come in through water, may not show itself for months. It Has many symptoms that can be taken as other diseases so will be misdiagnosed.
It’s strange how every tank isn’t riddled with it.
This is what confuses me too. That if what is written about it is true, then presumably something I've done in the tank is causing it to "flare up"? If I did weird maintenance it would make more sense, but I don't think I do anything that isn't standard practice. This is why I go back to the pencils already having it and spreading it to my tank. I am reminded of
@confusedman and his terrible luck with sick and dying fish, I wonder if it was the same thing.
Hi Rosie,
I've read your posts, been for a walk & am back at my table, painting, looking at my two tanks but still I don't know what I would do or advise.
I'm about as far removed from a scientist as you can get but even I have wondered why this disease has devastated your tank, especially when shops buy from the same wholesalers, it should be everywhere.
If the remaining fish are looking fairly good then run it as a closed system but be prepared to euthanase everything should it deteriorate. Though this depends on how you are feeling, if you end up dreading what you'll find at lights on then your health becomes more important & a complete restart would probably be best.
Sorry for the ramble but whatever decision you choose to make you'll have plenty of support here. 😻
<3 Thank you. I think that is one of the puzzling things, my friends have bought fish from the same shop and not had any problems. One friend did buy some dicrossus there at the same time as me and one died of popeye (which is a symptom of TB), otherwise, nothing of note. I think you are right about the dread, I have felt that a lot in the past few weeks once I realised something was going on. I think I will wait to see if more die, and if they do then it will be time to stop because the slow dripdripdrip of suffering is just awful.
What do you paint? When I first read this comment yesterday I was doing some drawing for the first time in ages, now I can't be rearranging and trimming and fiddling with the tank every day I've got to do something else for now I suppose!
I agree with John completely. If it was me I would give them a chance and watch them like a hawk. It's not an easy decision but I find generally we know when the time is right if we need to do something.
This is pretty much the plan. It feels on a knife edge at the moment, I do feel like the fish seem more subdued generally now and I wonder if that is ill health or my imagination. Only time will tell! The pygmies seem ok though which is nice, what a fabulous fish they are. One day I will keep a fleet of 100 and it'll be beautiful.
Just caught up with this and want to say thank you for sharing everything in so much detail. There are loads of anecdotal reports out there but this does provide a good source of what to look for.
I've not had to deal with it personally but met a guy that had quite a bad time after he contracted it, so definitely put your own health first.
If it were me I'd stick with things as they are. If all fish succumb, how long can MB live without a host? If it's present in all water, how long does it take for numbers to reduce to a safe level when there's no host and you're running a UV? Just thinking that you should be able to save your scape and avoid stripping everything, while still ensuring the environment is safe to reintroduce fish if MB numbers can be reduced to background levels with normal water changes/UV sterilisation.
If things with your other fish stabilise as horrible as it sounds I guess it makes things a bit trickier as there will be a host so maybe wait for things to stabilise and then wait another 6 months. I'd imagine any ongoing or long term damage should show up in that time.
Just a thought that occured to me, have you checked your waterbutt(s) for any 'foreign' objects? I remember you had a slug die in one. I also use rainwater so not having ago here but wondering if something got into the waterbutt and that was the potential source of MB? Just trying to understand where it stemmed from.
Sorry for the lengthy ramble and asking more questions that I've provided answers/suggestions.
All the best and hope things improve.
Thank you. It feels like all I can really do is describe it, at least it might be useful to someone in the future.
I have heard it's really nasty to catch, I saw one guy who catually almost died from it which was very fun to read... the long pond gloves are coming today to hopefully avoid this stuff. The scary this is that I think I probably have put my hands in while the pencils were suffering and before I realised it was TB, and I have a cat who does like a little bite and scratch when playing. Apparently it can take a while to develop. Either way if I see any sign it'll be straight to the doctor for me ASAP.
That is the question about the MB, from what I can tell it can just live perfectly happy in biofilm without a host. I am hopeful that the UV will really reduce levels so it's safer for me and the fish. I don't know that I will ever feel comfortabel introducing new fish to the tank though. To be honest this tank has not been without problems growing plants for me (it acts like a lowtech even with CO2 basically ffs), if the plants were all growing healthily before I would persevere but this has pushed it over the edge. Ultimately it doesn't seem like a stable environment longterm, it is very hard to reach quite a few areas for cleaning as well. Next time I'll keep that in mind more.
The rainwater is a real question mark, and I have wondered if that was the/a problem. I am not sure if I should continue using the rainwater in this big tank, it would be easier to do bigger and more frequent waterchanges if I just used tap, but also maybe that would stress the fish even more. The vet seems quite convinced that the pencils could have got sicker if they were raised in a higher PH water, and shocked to live in a lower pH in my tank. All of my fish are considered softwater fish though? Seems kinda against what I've learnt about pH and fish, but idk I'm not an expert. The only thing about this is that I do use rainwater in all my tanks, and I haven't had any ricefish or my betta suffer. I do have less chilli rasboras on the other hand, about 1/3 have disappeared in the past 6 months since I got them.
