TDS + immediate dose

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Best of luck and please keep us informed of how things are progressing.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

I also contacted the people who sold me the ph and tds pen ... they may be faulty ... sigh ... new ones on the way.

Hi @Plants234

As the supplier has let you down, why not ask them to provide free calibration fluids for the pH and TDS pen? You need to be confident that you can rely on the figures that each of these show. Having incorrect figures is as bad as/worse than having no figures. Out of interest, what is the manufacturer's name and model number of each of these products?

JPC

 

[JoshP12]

Howdy @jaypeecee,

I tested the TDS meter today in distilled water and it read 0 -- I think just the ph pen was wonky, but I am happy with the customer service so far.

Along the vein of TDS: my aquarium is down to about 800 ish ppm ... I think with water changes and balanced remineralization, I can get it to 500-600 with my tap water -- should be good enough, I think.

It is a Vivosun product --> I'll let you know how the new ph pen works. I am hoping the product turns out good as they have a nice light for sale too.

Josh

 

[jaypeecee]

It is a Vivosun product --> I'll let you know how the new ph pen works. I am hoping the product turns out good as they have a nice light for sale too.

Hi @Plants234

In my professional opinion, no-one can make a trustworthy pH meter for $12.99, which is the price shown on the Vivosun web site. TDS meters are different as the electronics circuitry is much simpler and the electrode material much cheaper. I'm not making this comment out of snobbishness as that is not my scene. I just want to draw this to your attention. An alternative would be a narrow-range pH aquarium test kit.

JPC

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @Plants234

Examples of narrow-range pH test kits are:

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/8643/jbl-proaquatest-ph-60-76

https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/8646/jbl-proaquatest-ph-74-90

JPC

Note: I have no affiliations whatsoever with JBL.

 

[sparkyweasel]

I have been doing ph kh tests to cross reference.

A lot of people seem to go astray with that sort of thing.
If you explain what tests you do, how, and what you are trying to achieve, some-one will spot any flaws there may be in the procedure. If it's really obvious it might even be me that spots it 🙂

 

[jaypeecee]

Drop checker in mail right now! I have been doing ph kh tests to cross reference.

Hi @Plants234

From these two sentences, would I be right in thinking that you have used the well-known KH/pH/CO2 table to estimate the dissolved CO2 concentration in your tank? If there are other acids and buffers in the aquarium water, this table can give misleading results.

JPC

 

[JoshP12]

Hi @Plants234

From these two sentences, would I be right in thinking that you have used the well-known KH/pH/CO2 table to estimate the dissolved CO2 concentration in your tank? If there are other acids and buffers in the aquarium water, this table can give misleading results.

JPC

I have!! I have been testing kh and ph regularity ... I brought the kh in my aquarium up over the past few weeks by buffering up water change water (I wanted kh of 4 degrees). However, I removed my almond leaf (and some peat) from the filter so that I wouldn’t have any of those acids to see the true co2 concentration ph drop.

I am thinking this drop checker will help... in a 10 gallon (doing this for the first time) I’m basically dicing with death because one small adjustment on the needle valve could throw my ppms off more so than in a 100 gallon ... lol.

 

[JoshP12]

A lot of people seem to go astray with that sort of thing.
If you explain what tests you do, how, and what you are trying to achieve, some-one will spot any flaws there may be in the procedure. If it's really obvious it might even be me that spots it 🙂

Haha! Thanks!
I’ve just been testing kh and ph before the co2 is on, 2 hours after ... mid day ... at the end ... and when co2 has been off for a while.

I seem to be getting a solid drop from about 7.8/7.6 to about 6.6/6.8 ... it actually dipped lower and that’s when i saw my fish gasp. I dropped it and the last few days they have been ok.

I’ll update how the drop checker goes.

Along with those tests, I finally mixed a batch of perfect water change water (which I should have started with when I cycled the aquarium) with GH=6/7 and kh=4 (both in degrees) ... with calcium:magnesium on a 3:1/2:1 and the carbonates with potassium cation (reduce my dosing).


So let’s see.
After testing my tds in this batch I am close to 500microseimens, meaning I’ll actually be in a decent range to keep my neon tetras and gobies happy ... potentially I could increase the livestock too.

 

[JoshP12]

Hi @Plants234

In my professional opinion, no-one can make a trustworthy pH meter for $12.99, which is the price shown on the Vivosun web site. TDS meters are different as the electronics circuitry is much simpler and the electrode material much cheaper. I'm not making this comment out of snobbishness as that is not my scene. I just want to draw this to your attention. An alternative would be a narrow-range pH aquarium test kit.

JPC

That makes sense —> The tds meter seems to be ok.

I reverted back to 2 drops of the ol’ blue solution.

 

[JoshP12]

There’s the tank by the way (just put the checker in so we will see if it changes tomorrow).

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

After testing my tds in this batch I am close to 500microseimens,

I finally mixed a batch of perfect water change water (which I should have started with when I cycled the aquarium) with GH=6/7 and kh=4 (both in degrees) ... with calcium:magnesium on a 3:1/2:1 and the carbonates with potassium cation (reduce my dosing).

I'd honestly stop trying to mix the <"perfect water">.

Because you are starting from water that is low in dissolved solutes you have an advantage. If you want to add a bit of hardness (dGH/dKH) that is OK, but you only <"need a portion of what you are adding at the moment">.

Have a look at <"New high tech..."> as well.

However, I removed my almond leaf (and some peat) from the filter so that I wouldn’t have any of those acids to see the true co2 concentration ph drop.

to estimate the dissolved CO2 concentration in your tank? If there are other acids and buffers in the aquarium water, this table can give misleading results.

I'm not a CO2 user, but I agree with the others.

The pH ~ CO2 ~ HCO3 equilibrium chart only works for a drop checker with 4dKH solution. This is because of the air gap (across which only dissolved gases can diffuse), the colour change just measure the CO2 that diffuses across the gap into the solution.

cheers Darrel

 

[jaypeecee]

I seem to be getting a solid drop from about 7.8/7.6 to about 6.6/6.8 ... it actually dipped lower and that’s when i saw my fish gasp. I dropped it and the last few days they have been ok.

Hi @Plants234

Please take a look at:

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/why-advise-a-1ph-drop.58798/

JPC

 

[JoshP12]

Such great information in all of those links ... they lead me down the rabbit hole. I want to thank you guys for sharing those.

Hi all,I'd honestly stop trying to mix the <"perfect water">. Because you are starting from water that is low in dissolved solutes you have an advantage. If you want to add a bit of hardness (dGH/dKH) that is OK, but you only <"need a portion of what you are adding at the moment">.

Just trying to understand - you can use any water you want for an aquarium and of course we have cheaper alternatives (tap) and more expensives ones (RO). RO provides us the ability to do "science" and literally control what is in the water we have; throw purigen in your filter, and you've got nothing but what you put in (hopefully). Tap water is good too (I use it), but mine has near 0 KH, so I have no buffering ability and without that my pH will plummet from CO2 and the denitrification process (add almond leaf and peat for health of the fish and plant purposes) and you have a tank that is going to crash. Your suggestion of remineralizing to 2dkH (let's say with cations that contribute to GH: Mg + Ca) gets around the crash factor that I suggested (and may give a few dGH -- can you comment what the equivalent might be?), but why not 4dkH (please don't say but why 4kH when 2dkH works ... lol)?


A pervasive trend in your posts suggest conductivity being a thing to look for; can you elaborate on the benefits/detriments and implications of conductivity levels for me? An example was from one of linked posts above, "adding a neutral salt (like KCl) definitely works to stabilise the reading on a pH meter" ... how?

The pH ~ CO2 ~ HCO3 equilibrium chart only works for a drop checker with 4dKH solution. This is because of the air gap (across which only dissolved gases can diffuse), the colour change just measure the CO2 that diffuses across the gap into the solution.

The drop checker changed to the same color as the ph in my aquarium: either the ph indicator is very inaccurate (possible and there are minimal acids in my aquarium) or there are no other contributing acids in my aquarium (I should add - or compounds that form hydronium or bacterias etc that form h+ as a result of their mechanisms ). My intuition tells me that the both of those situations are not the likely ones: can someone enlighten me as to whether or not things (biological or molecular - denitrification excluded) form acidic compounds in our aquariums rendering the necessity of drop checkers to verify CO2 levels (which @jaypeecee finds less useful)?

@jaypeecee , you mention "this, in conjunction with a KH of 3.8, equates to 45 ppm of CO2. None of my fish were harmed in any way whatsoever" ... in conjunction with my rabbit hole digging through several of Barr's posts, this leads me to believe that you have a higher concentration of O2 to be able to pump the CO2 and be "ok" ... Question: what dictates the maximum O2 and CO2 in an aquarium --> these gases are in equilibrium with the atmosphere but how can we dissolve more O2 in the water to be able to have more CO2 and NOT affect fish health (Barr suggests using a wet/dry sump --> is this the best way? Air stone probably wouldn't be so good.)

EDIT: hmmm ... http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/GenChem1/L23/web-L23.pdf Henry's law? But how can we get more oxygen without losing too much CO2 at the surface? I have 2 HOB filters 1 in the back and 1 on the side (to pick up the awkward angle ... flow issue from hardscape).


I am also interested in how osmotic pressure with fishies work (if anyone has some nice links) and the role that gasses play in this ... I've read both arguments regarding the ph swings, and I'd like to get to the root of it!!!

Cheers,
Joshua

 

[JoshP12]

I suppose this https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/leaving-out-gh-booster-from-ei-dosing.51856/#post-518594 in conjunction with https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ons-between-plant-nutrients-Interaction-A.png from @dw1305 suggests that I do not need to have such a high GH in my water change water ... any thoughts?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

so I have no buffering ability and without that my pH will plummet from CO2 and the denitrification process (add almond leaf and peat for health of the fish and plant purposes) and you have a tank that is going to crash

Yes, this is the conventional view, but it was based on our "best guess" and the bacteria that we thought were responsible for nitrification.

Have a look at page 4. of <"Bedside Aquarium"> for some further discussion.

I don't think you have to worry as much about the <"tank crash" scenario in planted tanks>. When you get acidification and fish death they are both symptoms of underlying problems, rather than one having directly caused the other.

The main point would be that scientific advances in the last fifteen years have identified a huge range of nitrifying organism, many of which belong to the Archaea, and these don't have the same requirement for high alkalinity and high ammonia loadings. We now know that Nitrobacter winogradskyi, <"the bacteria that we thought was responsible for the oxidation of ammonia">, doesn't actually occur in aquarium filters at all.

Your suggestion of remineralizing to 2dkH (let's say with cations that contribute to GH: Mg + Ca) gets around the crash factor that I suggested (and may give a few dGH -- can you comment what the equivalent might be?), but why not 4dkH (please don't say but why 4kH when 2dkH works ... lol)?

I honestly don't know where the lowest "safe" level of dGH/dKH is. I use rain-water in the tanks, but I live in an area where it is all limestone and even in the winter our rain-water picks some dGH/dKH from dust etc. I never have source water of less than about 30 microS, and ~2 dGHdKH.

Rivers like the Rio Negro will have conductivity values of less than 10 microS., so some fish are adapted to very low levels of solute.

Can you elaborate on the benefits/detriments and implications of conductivity levels for me?

Conductivity definitely isn't the parameter that we would like to know, but it is about the only meter or test where you can just dip it in the tank water and get an accurate, and repeatable value. These values are linear over many orders of magnitude from RO water all the way to sea water.

So far so good, but conductivity doesn't tell you the nature of the ions in solution, just their amount. There are exceptions, but for the majority of natural fresh water the most frequent ions are Ca++ and HCO3-, so conductivity gives us an approximation of hardness.

An example was from one of linked posts above, "adding a neutral salt (like KCl) definitely works to stabilise the reading on a pH meter" ... how?

The neutral salt (salt of a strong base and a strong acid) just raises the <"ionic strength of the solution">, but it doesn't change the pH. The K+ and Cl- ions cancel one another out. The pH meter is a modified conductivity meter and it is just that the meter reaches equilibrium much more quickly in a higher ionic strength solutions.

can someone enlighten me as to whether or not things (biological or molecular - denitrification excluded) form acidic compounds in our aquariums rendering the necessity of drop checkers to verify CO2 levels

Yes there can be other acids ("H+ ion donors") present, when you are adding fertilisers some of the salts will be acidic, some will be neutral and some alkaline. If you take <"potassium phosphate"> as your fertiliser if you use KH2PO4 it is an acid and if you use K2HPO4 it is a base.

Using a drop checker means that you are only measuring CO2.

cheers Darrel

 

[JoshP12]

The main point would be that scientific advances in the last fifteen years have identified a huge range of nitrifying organism, many of which belong to the Archaea, and these don't have the same requirement for high alkalinity and high ammonia loadings. We now know that Nitrobacter winogradskyi, <"the bacteria that we thought was responsible for the oxidation of ammonia">, doesn't actually occur in aquarium filters at all.

Interesting!!!!! Does the nitro-spira denitrification still produce 2H+ through the process?

 

[jaypeecee]

@jaypeecee...you mention "this, in conjunction with a KH of 3.8, equates to 45 ppm of CO2. None of my fish were harmed in any way whatsoever"...this leads me to believe that you have a higher concentration of O2 to be able to pump the CO2 and be "ok"

Hi @Plants234

I'm not sure what you mean by "you have a higher concentration of O2". Higher than what? It's late in the day but please explain - otherwise, I am unable to answer your question.

JPC

 

[JoshP12]

Hi @jaypeecee,

I ended up finding the post by Tom Barr after digging through the posts everyone shared with me (I can't remember how I got there):
"Dutch something or the other" 120 Gal (https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dutch-something-or-the-other-120-gal.17797/page-27)\\

Anyways, about the fifth post down here: https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dutch-something-or-the-other-120-gal.17797/page-26#post-299199 he talks about O2 levels and how he can load up more CO2 because of them. He continues and says, "
I keep double trunk elephant nose, they are hyper CO2 sensitive. So they are fine, same with my 180, it's sitting about 65-70ppm CO2.
Realize I have good flow and wet/dry filters and higher O2 than anyone with a canister filter"

He also says,
"Realize that CO2 goes in, but it also goes out(degassing), if the degassing is stable, and the addition is stable, then you can add a fair amount, and then you also have a lot of O2, that makes it easier on the livestock."

In my little 10 gallon, when I pushed my CO2 past the 30 ppm (albeit perhaps the jump was too quick as I may try again a week or so from now) I saw the fish begin to gasp and accumulate at the bottom of the aquarium this makes sense seeing as how the top of my aquarium was covered in the mini CO2 bubbles. When I dialed it back, fish were (and are currently) healthily breathing (I am probably only in the mid 20's ppm for CO2).

I have no experience with anything bigger than a 10 gal, so I do not know how oxygen levels vary as tank size changes (but I think we can say that tanks built long with high flow will have higher oxygen levels like shallow fast flowing streams).

All that to say, that's why I mentioned that maybe you have a higher O2 concentration in your tank because then the fish will still be able to respire without the higher concentration of CO2 messing up the function (if anyone has a link for how fish respiration works specifically with diffusion of oxygen over the cell membrane, I would greatly appreciate a reputable read).

Cheers,
Josh

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Does the nitrospira denitrification still produce 2H+ through the process?

I think that nitrification must produce some protons, whatever the pathway is, because you've gone from NH4+ to NO3-.

This is from Chain et al. (2003) <"Complete Genome Sequence of the Ammonia-Oxidizing Bacterium and Obligate Chemolithoautotroph Nitrosomonas europaea">

Nitrosomonas europaea is a bacterium that can derive all its energy and reductant for growth from the oxidation of ammonia to nitrite. The cell's demand for carbon has to be met almost entirely by the fixation of carbon dioxide.............Ammonia-oxidizing bacteria such as Nitrosomonas convert NH3 to NO2− by the successive action of ammonia monooxygenase (AMO) and hydroxylamine oxidoreductase (HAO): NH3 + O2 + 2H++ 2e− → NH2OH + H2O → NO2− + 5H+ + 4e−. Two of the four electrons return to the AMO reaction, and two are either reductant for biosynthesis or pass to a terminal electron acceptor (41, 83).

All that to say, that's why I mentioned that maybe you have a higher O2 concentration in your tank because then the fish will still be able to respire without the higher concentration of CO2 messing up the function (if anyone has a link for how fish respiration works specifically with diffusion of oxygen over the cell membrane, I would greatly appreciate a reputable read).

You need a reference for the <"Root effect">, the relevant component of the <"Bohr-Root effect">.

You might be interested in this thread as well <"A question, dissolved oxygen and a pond">

cheers Darrel