Talking with Diana walstad

[sciencefiction]

I think the other thing that people really don't consider with ammonia cycling is that although you may end up with a microbial system able to deal with a relatively large amount of ammonia, that system is going to be inherently unstable once you start stocking fish.

On the contrary, the tank is very stable. I've done it numerous times and it's been the only method after which I am very comfortable adding fish without worrying for mini spikes I don't notice.

With an ammonia cycle you are selecting for microbes that are able to survive in and rapidly scavenge large amounts of free ammonia (2-5ppm), whereas in an established tank the amount of free ammonia in the water at any given time is likely to be under 0.1ppm, which favours completely different bacteria (and mainly archaea it seems) that are adapted for efficient scavenging of small amounts of ammonia (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?

Only if you dose ammonia over 4-5ppm you may develop different species of bacteria. 3ppm is best and done that way the tank is rock solid stable when finished. As alto mentioned above if you are adding sensitive species in one go fishless is the way to go even if using mature media to start it up.

I've done all methods above, fishless cycle with ammonia. Fish in cycle with plants and Fish in cycle with Tetra safe start and using mature media, and they all work, though it takes different care and different amount of time.
If you don't know how to grow plants properly or don't want much plants tha

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
As Tom alluded to earlier there is some research that suggests that the eventual microbial community within the filter is dominated by a stable assemblage of AOA ("Ammonia-Oxidising Archaea") in normal (low) ammonia conditions, and that this assemblage would differ from the initial AOB (Ammonia-Oxidising Bacteria) dominated community which occurs during "cycling".

I think the problem is that, like all of ecology, it is a complex fluid system and that people want black and white answers in a "shades of grey" world.

This is from Bagchi et al (2014) "Temporal and Spatial Stability of Ammonia-Oxidizing Archaea and Bacteria in Aquarium Biofilters" (open access (PLOS one)).

The new sponge material placed inside F3 before the start of the experiment might explain AOB dominance during the initial period, because previous research has reported rapid colonization of AOB in newly installed aquarium biofilters [34]. The initial AOB community might have gradually been outcompeted by AOA, under persistent low ammonia concentrations. Indeed, a spatial differentiation of AOB and AOA was observed within one month of operation according to the likely oxygen gradient (AOB in the top filter and AOA in the bottom filter), with a gradual increase in AOA over time

I know from our work with landfill leachate that if you can get enough oxygen into the "water" a relatively small amount of established filter material can deal with a huge bioload.

cheers Darrel

 

[Guest]

IME fishless cycling just isn't necessary. Nature invariably provides the simplest, most economical, effective and efficient solutions, if you just let it take its course, hence the analogy in my last post...That's why I try not to meddle with stuff if I can at all help it...plus I'm fundamentally lazy...

 

[ajm83]

IME fishless cycling just isn't necessary. Nature invariably provides the simplest, most economical, effective and efficient solutions, if you just let it take its course, hence the analogy in my last post...That's why I try not to meddle with stuff if I can at all help it...plus I'm fundamentally lazy...

Look, that method may work for you & I when starting a new tank, but most people aren't planting tanks anywhere near as heavily or as successfully as members of this site are. And certainly not from the get-go on a new tank.

For example, most fishkeeping friends who see my tanks are really impressed - 'wow those plants are AMAZING!' they say. Yet compared to 90% of members of UKAPS, they are pretty dire. So to think those types of people who are impressed with MY shoddy tanks could keep plants growing quickly and healthily enough to mop up the nitrogen to an extent where the fish are kept safely is a non-starter in my opinion. They kill off even elodea, cabomba, java fern, anubias etc in short order. Probably even give duckweed a run for its money!

Fishless gives these people a simple procedure to follow. Add 3ppm of ammonia, test a day later. Repeat until you get zeros on ammonia and nitrite. Really easy to complete, and far less effort than an unplanted fish-in cycle.

 

[Guest]

I was like one of your friends once upon a time in a galaxy far far away. I didn't even know what fishless cycling was way back then...I doubt it even existed...but somehow I, and my fellow aquarists, muddled along without it, and without much in the way of plants, and I seem to remember without critter casualties. Though it was such a long time ago I maybe confabulating a little...

 

[Colinlp]

Though it was such a long time ago I maybe confabulating a little...

I don't know about then.... 😉

 

[sciencefiction]

The creatures exposed to fish in cycle don't die on the trot. They most likely live through it if enough water changes are done. . But they just don't last their supposed lifetime afterwards and if the tank had enough unnoticed mini spikes during the "cycling" period, disease outbreaks follow a few months down the line. Thus people don't associate the cycling with the disease as it happens quite a time apart but the truth is, it weakens their immune system for months to follow. So I don't care how safe a method is, I don't put fish until the tank is cycled, not anymore. Any method is ok as long as one is familiar with it and is successful doing it.

Time wise, people that start up tanks with plants, still wait 2-3 weeks before introducing fish and that's about the time it takes when I've done fishless cycles with ammonia too. All those method take time to be safe for fish. Mature media helps but one can't be sure it will handle the immediate bioload so even this method may take a week before its safe for the most sensitive of fish.

 

[Ghosty]

i have to agree, that fish exposed to fish in cycle get random illness months after, even though I did lots of water change and added nitrifying bacteria every time I added fish, the fish that went through it all have red Gills, and get random stuff then die 3 days later, Iv lost guppys tetras and platies like this, but some have survived but doubt they last longer the. A year, don't get me wrong there colourful and playful, just learnt a lot from making mistakes

Am not looking to add any fish till I'm happy with the scape, and it's been a few weeks, during witch I will feed ammonia,

Ghosty