Staghorn Algae causes other than CO2?

[neofy705]

Hello all,

I've set up my tank around 3 months ago.
I got away with little to no algae but the last few weeks I'm struggling a bit with staghorn.
I think co2 is not a problem. Lime green to yellow and circular flow.
Could it be lack of nutrients? I only dose 4ml of TNC complete per day and change 35% water a week.

Interestingly staghorn algae grows everywhere, on driftwood, tall stem plants, carpeting plants. Background, foreground, low flow and high flow areas.
I mechanically removed all visible algae last thursday and it's reappeared worse than before already.

Hydrogen peroxide and excel work on driftwood but melt the moss and monte carlo so I avoid using them.

The tank:
Fluval Roma 200L
Chihiros wrgb 2 slim at maximum
Flow rate around 3000lph (fluval 307 and hydor koralia wavemaker)
Co2 using bazooka diffuser
Tropica soil with tropica substrate

Relatively high bioload: 8 otos, 5 honey gourami, 10 juvenile albino cories, 16 rummynose tetras and around 30-40 shrimps (amano, cherries, crystal)

Should I increase the amount of fertiliser? Adjust the flow or CO2?

 

[MichaelJ]

Am I correct in thinking that 450ppm is going to wipe my crystal shrimps long term?

It's bad that you measure such a wide discrepancy. Out of precaution I would personally assume the higher number. One way to get a bearing on the accuracy of your meters would be to make a pure NaCl (regular table salt) mixture in distilled water. 1 gram dissolved in 1 liter of distilled water (or half or quarter those quantities) to verify your meters (let the solution reach room temperature). This should yield around 2000 uS/cm or close to 1000 ppm at x0.5 and 1400 ppm at x0.7.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[jaypeecee]

Hi @neofy705 &Everyone,

According to the blurb, the Apera PC60 is supplied with calibration solutions. And this includes an EC solution of 1413 microSiemens/cm.

Here's the blurb:

PC60 Premium Multiparameter (pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature) Pocket Tester/Meter Kit-Apera Instruments

The Apera Instruments PC60 Multi-parameter Tester/Meter simply tests pH/EC/TDS/Salinity/Temperature for regular aqueous solutions such as hydroponics, aquaculture, pools& spas, tap/drinking water, water treatment, cooling towers, etc.

aperainst.com

JPC

 

[neofy705]

Hello @jaypeecee and @MichaelJ

It does come with calibration solutions. I just got some DI water to calibrate it.

Is using tap water without seachem equilibrium as usual a good way of reducing the tds or will it be too stressful for the shrimps?

 

[jaypeecee]

Is using tap water without seachem equilibrium as usual a good way of reducing the tds or will it be too stressful for the shrimps?

Hi @neofy705

That's one for the shrimp-keepers. Unfortunately, I'm unable to help you there. But, you're unlikely to have to wait for long before help arrives!

JPC

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

And this includes an EC solution of 1413 microSiemens/cm.

That is the <"0.01 Mol. KCl standard">, if you want to make up any more.

cheers Darrel

 

[MichaelJ]

Is using tap water without seachem equilibrium as usual a good way of reducing the tds or will it be too stressful for the shrimps?

Hi Neo, You have to make sure there is enough Calcium and Magnesium in your water in order for the shrimps to continuously build their exoskeleton and successfully molt. You're using the Equilibrium to raise your Ca/Mg contents an additional 3 GH over your tap water to reach a total of 6 GH. I advice you to continue to do so until you have an alternative solution on hand despite the elevated TDS - as mentioned in my post above (using CaSO4/MgSO4). If you suddenly stop using Equilibrium your GH would eventually drop 3 degrees and that is not a change your shrimps will appreciate as they will most likely quickly suffer from Calcium and Magnesium deficiency.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[neofy705]

Hi Neo, You have to make sure there is enough Calcium and Magnesium in your water in order for the shrimps to continuously build their exoskeleton and successfully molt. You're using the Equilibrium to raise your Ca/Mg contents an additional 3 GH over your tap water to reach a total of 6 GH. I advice you to continue to do so until you have an alternative solution on hand despite the elevated TDS - as mentioned in my post above (using CaSO4/MgSO4). If you suddenly stop using Equilibrium your GH would eventually drop 3 degrees and that is not a change your shrimps will appreciate as they will most likely quickly suffer from Calcium and Magnesium deficiency.

Cheers,
Michael

Understood. What I meant was to temporarily stop using equilibrium to drop the tds down a bit. I have just replaced 50% of the water without equilibrium.
The apera was pretty accurate but I calibrated it anyway. I changed the conversion factor to 0.6 (as a middle ground between the 0.71 it was set to and the 0.50 of the previous tds meter). When doing the maths the two meters give more or less the same reading. TDS is now 340 using the apera.

Surprisingly gh is still 5 in the tank. Tap water is now 120ppm tds instead of 80. Makes me wonder if the water quality changed due to extra additives added to prevent frozen pipes or something.

 

[LMuhlen]

I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that despite TDS/conductivity being a standard measurement for shrimp, they don't really care what the conductivity is, since they don't really try to conduct electricity. What they care for is the overall concentration of each salt in water, and the TDS measurement adds all those concentrations together, giving a general idea of pureness of the water.

If your TDS is high, but your GH is on point, reducing the GH won't help because it is the other salts that affect TDS that are in excess. You would end up with a problem of a lack of Ca/Mg and an excess of whatever else is raising your TDS, and they don't cancel out.

 

[MichaelJ]

If your TDS is high, but your GH is on point, reducing the GH won't help because it is the other salts that affect TDS that are in excess. You would end up with a problem of a lack of Ca/Mg and an excess of whatever else is raising your TDS, and they don't cancel out.

I agree.

Just to reiterate: Shrimps need a good amount of Ca and Mg for sure (22-30 ppm Ca, 7 - 10 ppm Mg is often quoted as a rule of thumb), that would be my first order of concern. Secondly, they need moderately low TDS (80-200 ppm or 160-400 uS/cm) to help them better regulate osmotic pressure (essentially salt concentration in their body) which they have a much harder time with than fish - especially rapid change to OP. They wont thrive at elevated TDS levels - whatever salts constitutes with TDS. It will cause osmotic stress. That said, shrimps are fairly adaptable and shrimps breed under elevated TDS levels may be more resilient, but there is of course a limit.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[neofy705]

I agree.

Just to reiterate: Shrimps need a good amount of Ca and Mg for sure (22-30 ppm Ca, 7 - 10 ppm Mg is often quoted as a rule of thumb), that would be my first order of concern. Secondly, they need moderately low TDS (80-200 ppm or 160-400 uS/cm) to help them better regulate osmotic pressure (essentially salt concentration in their body) which they have a much harder time with than fish - especially rapid change to OP. They wont thrive at elevated TDS levels - whatever salts constitutes with TDS. It will cause osmotic stress. That said, shrimps are fairly adaptable and shrimps breed under elevated TDS levels may be more resilient, but there is of course a limit.

Cheers,
Michael

Makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I made sure that the gh was at least 5 after the water change. As I think it is the upper limit for crystals and lower limit for cherries.
What I'll have to do is keep up with the water changes with equilibrium. (Even if it will take longer to drop the tds. )

Algae is still an issue. I had to trim the plants hard. I really find it hard to pinpoint the source now. Co2 is on point. Flow is high and fairly uniform. (As pointed before maybe too high). I don't add additional iron. My lights are not nearly bright enough to be an issue. Especially at the bottom of the tank where PAR should be pretty low.

 

[MichaelJ]

As I think it is the upper limit for crystals and lower limit for cherries.

Hi Neo, It really depends a lot on what constitute the GH... It start's to get problematic when the Calcium content gets too high (say up in the 40'ties ppm or above) as it will make the shell too hard for the shrimps to molt properly especially if combined with a calcium rich diet. What is essential with shrimps is that you have enough of both Calcium and Magnesium, but not too much (the Ca:Mg ratio is often suggested to be 3-4:1 ... Personally I use 3:1). The role of Calcium is to build the exoskeleton and the role of Magnesium in proper proportions is to help the shrimps absorb the Calcium. This is why you need both in appropriate quantities - regardless of what type of shrimp you are keeping. For example. if your water is 8 GH and made up from only Ca (~57 ppm) that would be highly problematic. However if the 8 GH is made up from 36 ppm of Ca and 12 ppm of Mg that would likely not be a problem. On the lower end 4 GH from say 18 ppm of Ca and 6 ppm of Mg would probably be fine as well, if food sources are rich in calcium such as mineral sticks, scalded kale, spinach etc. You often hear crystal shrimps being quoted for a narrower GH range, but that is mostly a TDS concern rather than a GH concern as they do tend to be somewhat more sensitive to higher TDS than Cherry shrimps. All this are more general considerations that you cant go wrong following, but also keep in mind that the resilience of your particular shrimps rests a lot on the conditions they were breed under. Thats why its good to know that bit as well if possible when introducing shrimps. What all shrimps really dislike is wide rapid swings in water parameters.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[neofy705]

Hi Neo, It really depends a lot on what constitute the GH... It start's to get problematic when the Calcium content gets too high (say up in the 40'ties ppm or above) as it will make the shell too hard for the shrimps to molt properly especially if combined with a calcium rich diet. What is essential with shrimps is that you have enough of both Calcium and Magnesium, but not too much (the Ca:Mg ratio is often suggested to be 3-4:1 ... Personally I use 3:1). The role of Calcium is to build the exoskeleton and the role of Magnesium in proper proportions is to help the shrimps absorb the Calcium. This is why you need both in appropriate quantities - regardless of what type of shrimp you are keeping. For example. if your water is 8 GH and made up from only Ca (~57 ppm) that would be highly problematic. However if the 8 GH is made up from 36 ppm of Ca and 12 ppm of Mg that would likely not be a problem. On the lower end 4 GH from say 18 ppm of Ca and 6 ppm of Mg would probably be fine as well, if food sources are rich in calcium such as mineral sticks, scalded kale, spinach etc. You often hear crystal shrimps being quoted for a narrower GH range, but that is mostly a TDS concern rather than a GH concern as they do tend to be somewhat more sensitive to higher TDS than Cherry shrimps. All this are more general considerations that you cant go wrong following, but also keep in mind that the resilience of your particular shrimps rests a lot on the conditions they were breed under. Thats why its good to know that bit as well if possible when introducing shrimps. What all shrimps really dislike is wide rapid swings in water parameters.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
Michael

Hi Michael and a happy new year 😊
As always you were spot on with your response but I have a (potentially silly question). How do I measure Ca and Mg? I can't seem to find any mainstream test kits. I guess people know the ratios because they are using salts. I tried to do ensure that there's no deficiencies in ca and mg by adding equilibrium. The problem is that equilibrium makes the tds skyrocket. Definitely not ideal but with the current situation I have to pick either optimal tds or optimal gh.
I do believe the high tds is somehow linked to the algae problem.

Would trimming without doing a water change result in an increase of tds (from whatever the plants are "bleeding out")?

Neo

 

[MichaelJ]

How do I measure Ca and Mg? I can't seem to find any mainstream test kits. I guess people know the ratios because they are using salts. I tried to do ensure that there's no deficiencies in ca and mg by adding equilibrium.

Your best bet for obtaining that information for your tap water would be a water report from the city. However, given that you’re in the UK (I assume) you probably wont have much Mg in your tap water for geological reasons. So if you’re measuring 3 GH it probably means that you’re mostly measuring Calcium. With the additional 3 GH from Equilibrium that you used you would get around 4.5 ppm of Mg which is low relative to the total Calcium content. As mentioned in my post above I would advise you just to purchase the salts needed to solve the Ca/Mg predicament and avoid the excess you get from Equilibrium. If your tap TDS comes out at around 100 ppm, the additional salts and fertilizer etc. should allow you to maintain below 200 ppm. (400 uS/cm). Which is fine.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[dark00punk]

Hello all,

I've set up my tank around 3 months ago.
I got away with little to no algae but the last few weeks I'm struggling a bit with staghorn.
I think co2 is not a problem. Lime green to yellow and circular flow.
Could it be lack of nutrients? I only dose 4ml of TNC complete per day and change 35% water a week.

Interestingly staghorn algae grows everywhere, on driftwood, tall stem plants, carpeting plants. Background, foreground, low flow and high flow areas.
I mechanically removed all visible algae last thursday and it's reappeared worse than before already.

Hydrogen peroxide and excel work on driftwood but melt the moss and monte carlo so I avoid using them.

The tank:
Fluval Roma 200L
Chihiros wrgb 2 slim at maximum
Flow rate around 3000lph (fluval 307 and hydor koralia wavemaker)
Co2 using bazooka diffuser
Tropica soil with tropica substrate

Relatively high bioload: 8 otos, 5 honey gourami, 10 juvenile albino cories, 16 rummynose tetras and around 30-40 shrimps (amano, cherries, crystal)

Should I increase the amount of fertiliser? Adjust the flow or CO2?

View attachment 198897

I hope you are well... I am here because I need some advise with lighting. I have seen that you are using a Chihiros wrgb 2 slim on a Fluval Roma 200. I am planning to get a Chihiros wrgb 2 (Size 90) for my Roma 200 would the Chihiros WRGB2 90 fit the Roma 200?? And do you have to leave the hood open?

 

[neofy705]

I hope you are well... I am here because I need some advise with lighting. I have seen that you are using a Chihiros wrgb 2 slim on a Fluval Roma 200. I am planning to get a Chihiros wrgb 2 (Size 90) for my Roma 200 would the Chihiros WRGB2 90 fit the Roma 200?? And do you have to leave the hood open?

I'm sorry. Just seen this. The slim version uses different support feet to the normal version. The slim can be supported by the internal "lip" of the rim. Where the fluval light goes.
The normal would have to be mounted on the outside. In both cases u need to remove the lids (the 2 plastic and the metal one).

Let us know what u did in the end.