Staghorn Algae causes other than CO2?

[neofy705]

Hello all,

I've set up my tank around 3 months ago.
I got away with little to no algae but the last few weeks I'm struggling a bit with staghorn.
I think co2 is not a problem. Lime green to yellow and circular flow.
Could it be lack of nutrients? I only dose 4ml of TNC complete per day and change 35% water a week.

Interestingly staghorn algae grows everywhere, on driftwood, tall stem plants, carpeting plants. Background, foreground, low flow and high flow areas.
I mechanically removed all visible algae last thursday and it's reappeared worse than before already.

Hydrogen peroxide and excel work on driftwood but melt the moss and monte carlo so I avoid using them.

The tank:
Fluval Roma 200L
Chihiros wrgb 2 slim at maximum
Flow rate around 3000lph (fluval 307 and hydor koralia wavemaker)
Co2 using bazooka diffuser
Tropica soil with tropica substrate

Relatively high bioload: 8 otos, 5 honey gourami, 10 juvenile albino cories, 16 rummynose tetras and around 30-40 shrimps (amano, cherries, crystal)

Should I increase the amount of fertiliser? Adjust the flow or CO2?

 

[xZaiox]

I personally associate staghorn algae with organic pollution. When I had my first tank setup, I had it covering everywhere in thick clumps, and putting in some elbow grease to clean everything worked wonders.

When you perform tank maintenance, do you use a gravel siphon to remove any debris settled on the substrate and plants? Doing this, as well as deep-cleaning the filter and pipes ought to help. Also be mindful of how you feed your fish; make sure all is eaten. I used to feed with the filter and wavemaker on, but small parts would fly everywhere and end up settling on plants. I now turn the filter and wavemaker off so that the food falls in one area, and it gives the corys an easier time finishing the last bits.

Lastly, ensure that your plants are growing healthily, since unhealthy plants will themselves contribute to organic pollution, although from your picture they appear healthy.

 

[neofy705]

I use a gravel cleaner on the front and sides of the aquarium as it's very difficult to safely clean the central area with shrimplets and plants in the way.

I deep cleaned the filter and pipes today and last month. I'm guilty of feeding a lot as I never had so many fish in one tank before. Lots of shrimps and cories means no leftovers but maybe too much poop.

Plants are growing well. A bit slowly but healthily.

So you are saying feeding less and better husbandry might do the trick?

I'll try feeding with filter and wavemaker off for a few days. If anything it will help me understand how much to actually feed.


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[xZaiox]

You can also use something like a turkey baster to direct targeted bursts of flow at specific locations. This is useful for densely planted areas. If areas are left alone for a while, then the amount of detritus that comes flying out can be pretty impressive. I do this during water changes - blast areas of dense plants with the turkey baster while simultaneously vacuuming what comes out with the gravel vac. It helps prevent anything from building up in the first place if done regularly.

So you are saying feeding less and better husbandry might do the trick?

I definitely can't comment on the amount you're feeding since I haven't observed you feed, but it's something to think about for sure. I personally feed my top and mid level fish pellets for about 30-60 seconds once per day, and then drop some sinking pellets for my bottom dwellers (corys, kuhlis, pleco etc). The sinking pellets are fully eaten within 10-15 mins or so. I do this while keeping an eye on the weight of the fish - so far they're all nice and plump. If you see that your fish appear skinny, then they likely need more food.

As for the husbandry, I also cannot say for sure, as we don't really know what causes any algae, but my experience with staghorn makes me believe that organic pollution is a key part of it.

I'll try feeding with filter and wavemaker off for a few days. If anything it will help me understand how much to actually feed.

Yeah I think this is a good idea. I turn the flow completely off every single day for feeding. It definitely results in way less food pollution.

 

[PARAGUAY]

I would wave your hand just about the substrate when doing a w/c after as much algae manually removed as possible. Your light is at maximum? Definitely turn it down. 3 months your in the early stage so it common for algae issues, Don't be mislead by a drop checker move it around the tank a little or temporary add one more. It's possible flow issue . Good maintenance is essential in a CO2 system with w/c

 

[tigertim]

I have a 100 liter plus tank and dose 30 ml of Tnc completete a week which is slightly more than you with a tank half the size , i would up your dosage for a few weeks and see if that helps.

 

[neofy705]

I would wave your hand just about the substrate when doing a w/c after as much algae manually removed as possible. Your light is at maximum? Definitely turn it down. 3 months your in the early stage so it common for algae issues, Don't be mislead by a drop checker move it around the tank a little or temporary add one more. It's possible flow issue . Good maintenance is essential in a CO2 system with w/c

The light is the slim version of the wrgb2. Which is about 50% weaker. Max brightness is about 3600 lumens and my tank is 50cm deep. I think the light is not strong enough even at max setting. I might be wrong though. Well i hope I'm wrong as I'm really considering upgrading to the full fat wrgb 2 or even the pro version.

I followed your advice. I put another drop checker on the opposite end with the least amount of flow. Still lime green almost yellow.

I'm starting to think it's a husbandry issue as moss is badly affected and might be because it's trapping detritus or it's melting underneath. I don't know how else to improve the flow. I see bubbles everywhere in the tank. The algae is really unsightly. Don't let the photo I uploaded in the original post fool you. It was right after I mechanically removed the algae and trimmed.

A closer look:

 

[neofy705]

I have a 100 liter plus tank and dose 30 ml of Tnc completete a week which is slightly more than you with a tank half the size , i would up your dosage for a few weeks and see if that helps.

Thanks. Upped it to 6ml. So 42ml per week.

 

[Tim Harrison]

For a heavily planted tank like yours I'd be dosing the weekly recommended dose of TNC Complete every day.
Either way, staghorn is largely due to a build up of organics, so make sure you stay on top of maintenance, especially filters and water changes.
Good news is, if you persevere it's relatively easy to get rid of.

 

[jolt100]

Have you tried increasing the water changes to reduce the organic pollution levels? Either 50% + once a week or 35% twice a week.
Cheers

 

[neofy705]

For a heavily planted tank like yours I'd be dosing the weekly recommended dose of TNC Complete every day.
Either way, staghorn is largely due to a build up of organics, so make sure you stay on top of maintenance, especially filters and water changes.
Good news is, if you persevere it's relatively easy to get rid of.

I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die. Mainly because of the nitrogen level. But I feel comfortable doing 3x the recommended dose. Maybe it's time to switch to salts so I can keep the nitrate level under control.

Will the algae disappear on its own when I get to the bottom of the problem or will it need to be manually removed anyway??


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[Tim Harrison]

I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die.

What shrimp do you have? If they're Cherries and Amano, both are as tough as old boots and won't even notice.

It's not an inorganic nitrate fertz problem. It will be a dissolved and solid organic waste issue. Organic waste is the sum total of the fish feces, urine, plant decomposition from dead leaves and leakage, bacteria waste, rotting driftwood, fish food etc, anything that can be broken down.

Keep your tank and filter very clean and do regular and substantial water changes, perhaps 50% 3 times a week, and it should disappear on its own. Thereafter, 50% once a week.
But you can help it along by pipetting LC directly onto it. Switch off your filter first though so the LC gets chance to work. You'll know when it has, the staghorn will turn red-pink or purple-ish.

 

[neofy705]

What shrimp do you have?
It's not a nitrate problem. It will be a dissolved and solid organic waste issue.
Keep your tank and filter very clean and do regular and substantial water changes, perhaps 50% 3 times a week, and it should disappear on its own. Thereafter, 50% once a week.

Amanos, crystal reds and cherries. Current all types are berried (a first for me). Gives me no leeway with the parameters. As I'm at the top end of hardness and ph for crystals and low end for cherries. What was I thinking? I'm new to high tech tanks and new to shrimps. It's a difficult tank to balance.

Temp 23C, ph 6.5-7.5, kh 1-2, gh 5-6.

I'll keep my eye on the filter as it was disgusting when I cleaned it the other day. I'll be doing two 35% water changes a week until I see improvement.


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[xZaiox]

I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die. Mainly because of the nitrogen level.

There is some speculation that organic forms of nitrate may be the risky type, and that nitrate in salt form is less harmful. There have been many people experimenting with dosing nitrates in the hundreds of ppm range with no apparent effect on livestock. I can't comment on the legitimacy of this, as I'm not qualified to, but it is something I likely believe. Many studies in the wild seem to show harmful effects from relatively low amounts of nitrates, yet as hobbyists we just don't see it replicated in our tanks.

But I feel comfortable doing 3x the recommended dose. Maybe it's time to switch to salts so I can keep the nitrate level under control.

I think I speak for nearly everyone on ukaps when I say - definitely switch to dry salts. They are vastly cheaper, potent and allow for a much tighter control of what you wish to dose.

Will the algae disappear on its own when I get to the bottom of the problem or will it need to be manually removed anyway??

My experience is both - the thick clumps may stick around, and some of the small bits may die off on their own. The best strategy is to remove as much as you can, and then keep up with good practices. When good practices are maintained, it should stop growing and spreading.

 

[Tim Harrison]

I'm worried if I do that the shrimps will die.

I don't think it'd be a problem.

Crystal red shrimp and Estimative Index

Some folks in the USA have been telling folks about CRS and how sensitive they are to fertilizers, and to temprature. I've had some for well over a year now in 2 tanks and with and without fish(Botia sidthmunki, Galaxay rasboras), other shrimps(Amano) in high light, ADA AS and EI dosing...

www.aquaticquotient.com

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

.........I'll keep my eye on the filter as it was disgusting when I cleaned it the other day. .....

I'd guess that you can take out some of the media. When you have planted tank you have <"plant / microbe nitrification"> and that is more efficient than <"microbe only"> nitrification. Have a look at <"The order of filter media in Oase Biomaster">

Cheers Darrel

 

[neofy705]

Hi all,

I'd guess that you can take out some of the media. When you have planted tank you have /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/70l-planted-first-tank.69440/#post-696179']plant / microbe nitrification[/URL]"> and that is more efficient than /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-expensive-bio-media-worth-it.67468/page-6#post-669951']microbe only[/URL]"> nitrification. Have a look at /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-order-of-filter-media-in-oase-biomaster.67732/#post-671350']The order of filter media in Oase Biomaster[/URL]">

Cheers Darrel

I read the post u linked. Makes me feel silly for spending so much money on Matrix. My canister filter is full of it. 2L of it. Sandwiched between foam and polishing pads. And a touch of purigen. The sponges are absolutely disgusting. The polishing pads and foam I just replace (I cut to size a bigger pad). Matrix itself is clean. But the bucket I rinse the prefilter sponges and foam pads becomes full of mulm.

Why would removing some of the media be beneficial tho? Genuine question.


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[PARAGUAY]

Moss is probably the first to collect detrius and a small tube to vacuum it off every water change and keep it trimmed. will sort that out. When you say the filter gets filthy full of gunk, it's normal to have dirty water when rinsing filter media. You could try replacing any fine sponges for more coarse ones very gradually of course. That will help stop clogging and give better flow.l would keep the Matrix and Purigen

 

[_Maq_]

Many studies in the wild seem to show harmful effects from relatively low amounts of nitrates, yet as hobbyists we just don't see it replicated in our tanks.

Direct - primary harmful effect of nitrates, their toxicity, is low. Secondary effects are significant because they alter species composition and food chain. Hypertrophy begins at about 1 mg N per liter. Obviously, this does not apply to our tanks.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

But the bucket I rinse the prefilter sponges and foam pads becomes full of mulm.

We think that Staghorn algae (Compsopogon caeruleus) may be associated with higher levels of <"dissolved organic matter (DOM)">. I don't mind <"mulm in the tanks">, but I want to make sure there is enough oxygen so that <"it is fully oxidised"> and this is <"more difficult to guarantee"> in a fully stuffed filter.

Makes me feel silly for spending so much money on Matrix. My canister filter is full of it. 2L of it. Sandwiched between foam and polishing pads.

No, you are good, it lasts for ever and <"Seachem Matrix"> (pumice) is <"fine as a filter media">. It is <"Seachem's advertising"> that <"I have the issue with">, not the actual filter media.

Personally I'm not keen on <"floss or fine foam"> and I want to keep all of the mechanical filtration <"outside of the filter body">. I use a <"big foam block on the filter intake">, others will use an <"OASE type filter with pre-filter etc">.

Why would removing some of the media be beneficial tho? Genuine question.

It is all to do with keeping all the filter media oxygenated. Have a look at <"New filter - which one?">.

Basically plants are very good at removing all forms of <"fixed nitrogen">, and that includes the nitrate (NO3-) produced by microbial nitrification. We want the filter to act as a <"nitrate factory"> (<"Anoxic denitrification in canister filters?">) and to do this we need to ensure that the water doesn't become deoxygenated within the filter.

It is the sealed nature of the canister filter that makes anaerobic denitrification such a dangerous concept. A <"finite amount of oxygen"> enters the filter, and if the Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD) <"exceeds that dissolved oxygen supply"> you run the real risk of ammonia levels building up.

You can mitigate for any potential build up of <"fixed nitrogen"> by having a <"back-up ammonia removal system">, ideally <"plant based">.

cheers Darrel