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Spray Bar and CO2 Diffuser placement confusion

ceg4048

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I think I have a decent flow as I can see that the leaves are gently swaying. The spray bar runs accross the tank and has 6 holes roughly 1/8" diameter. Is there a way to test if the flow is a complete circular motion by adding something to the tank?
Hi Monis,
Yes, you can cut a tiny piece of paper, perhaps pin-head size, and drop it on the surface, then watch it's path through the water. This will show you the general flow field that the spraybars create. Do this at as many locations as you want along the length of the tank (middle, corners and so forth). What you hope to see is that the paper heads toward the front glass hand heads rapidly downward along that front pane, then it should head towards the rear and then up along the rear pane. Of course, the speed will peter out and it may start to drift away from this ideal path, but you'd like to see it last at least half way towards the rear.

In this way you will be able to visualize the flow. This technique is not dissimilar to what is done in a wind tunnels using smoke to visualize air flow around an object such as an automobile or airplane.
following was the pH profile measured by API Drop Test Kit:
I highly recommend to anyone injecting CO2 to invest in a quality pH probe and pH probe calibration solution. It never ceases to amaze me how many posts I see where the hobbyists is giddy at the thought of spending megabucks on some fancy high powered light (which ironically is the root of all evil) and yet never give a thought to spending money on a good pH probe. Your money should always be spent first and foremost on CO2 problem solving because about 95% of all problems in a CO2 injected tank is due to poor CO2. Let that sink in for a moment... CO2 is always problematic and even if it's perfect today it's a sure thing that it will be somewhere between imperfect and catastrophic a month from now. I suggest investing in any of Hanna's multi-probe such as their pH/TDS/Temp probe.
It's difficult to comment on the yellow DC as there are so many factors such as what kind of water is placed in the DC, accuracy of the reagent and so forth.

Cheers,
 

erwin123

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From another thread, I thought the 1 pH drop is the drop from the gassed out pH, not from the pH just before CO2 switches on?
 

SudhirR

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From another thread, I thought the 1 pH drop is the drop from the gassed out pH, not from the pH just before CO2 switches on?

Both fully degassed pH and the pH at co2 injection on should remain the same. Are you noticing a marked difference?


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erwin123

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Both fully degassed pH and the pH at co2 injection on should remain the same. Are you noticing a marked difference?


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Hi Yes there is a difference for my tank water.

Like Katie in the other thread who has a 0.4 difference, I have a 0.5 difference between degassed pH and pH just before CO2 turns on. I don't need to wait 24 hours for it to show a difference- waiting 12 hours I already have a 0.5pH difference.

So I'm following the discussion on what would be the correct target pH to learn more.

I'm using an Apera Ph20 meter which is calibrated to a 4.0/7.0 solution.
 

aquascape1987

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Both fully degassed pH and the pH at co2 injection on should remain the same. Are you noticing a marked difference?

I don’t think that this is very common is it? I have never experienced this in any of my own tanks ever, since starting to inject CO2. There is always some residual CO2 left in the water from injection the previous day, by the time the CO2 comes back on again in my experience, so there would always be some Co2 to off gas to get your starting pH.
 

ceg4048

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Like Katie in the other thread who has a 0.4 difference, I have a 0.5 difference between degassed pH and pH just before CO2 turns on. I don't need to wait 24 hours for it to show a difference- waiting 12 hours I already have a 0.5pH difference.

So I'm following the discussion on what would be the correct target pH to learn more.
Both fully degassed pH and the pH at co2 injection on should remain the same. Are you noticing a marked difference?
I don’t think that this is very common is it? I have never experienced this in any of my own tanks ever, since starting to inject CO2. There is always some residual CO2 left in the water from injection the previous day, by the time the CO2 comes back on again in my experience, so there would always be some Co2 to off gas to get your starting pH.

That is correct. There is always some residual CO2 left in the water, however, the amount of residual is dependent on water temperature, whether the tank is top is closed or open as well as the degree of surface agitation. Also consider the accuracy and calibration quality of the device being used to measure the pH. This is normal and is not cause for concern. You can either use the reading you get from the residual CO2 or you can use the natural pH of the water as a reference. Whichever works for you will suffice. The 1 Ph drop is just a rule of thumb not some kind of cliff that your tank will fall off of if violated.
Some folks are rightfully concerned that using the residual reading may harm the fish so it is safer to use the natural pH as a reference for the drop. This is sound reasoning, especially for the inexperienced. Others use the residual reading and are fine. Fish can adapt to surprising levels of hypercapnia, within limits, and as long as it is done gradually.
More important than the number used as a reference is that your distribution is excellent. When this is achieved you'll find that you can lower the injection rate and still obtain a good pH drop and good, even CO2 levels throughout the tank.

This highlights yet another complicated nuance of CO2 technique. Obviously, if the injection rate is excessive during the day this is a problem, and blood CO2 levels acidify the blood and thus reduces the capacity of hemoglobin (in fish) and Hemocyanin (in inverts) to hold on to oxygen molecules. Fish and inverts however have a defense mechanism against blood acidifcation and that is their bodies release bicarbonate into the bloodstream to buffer the blood against internal pH depression. Additionally, during the photoperiod the plants release oxygen into the water column. The most dangerous time is early in the morning before lights ON, when the oxygen level is depleted and the plants and bacteria compete with the fish for oxygen. So the combination of elevated CO2 and low oxygen is less than ideal. That is why some folks employ air-stones at night to reduce CO2 levels and to help with oxygen. This is a Catch-22 however because the gas injection rate must now be high enough to compensate for the purged residual CO2.

Cheers,
 

SudhirR

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I don’t think that this is very common is it? I have never experienced this in any of my own tanks ever, since starting to inject CO2. There is always some residual CO2 left in the water from injection the previous day, by the time the CO2 comes back on again in my experience, so there would always be some Co2 to off gas to get your starting pH.

My co2 goes off at 5 pm and my aeration comes on. And the pH goes up till about midnight or so and remains almost constant till 11 am when the aeration stops and the co2 turns on.

My co2 chart is here: CO2 Already Dialled In, But Rechecking

Also I have good amount of surface agitation and flow in my tank. Now I am confused as to at what point the degassed pH needs to be measured. I was thinking it’s at the point when all the co2 is degassed and the PH is fairly constant. Pls let me know the correct interpretation.


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aquascape1987

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I was thinking it’s at the point when all the co2 is degassed and the PH is fairly constant. Pls let me know the correct interpretation.
I think that is the correct starting point. Just that most folks need to let their water de gas/actively de gas their water to be able to get this pH measurement.
 

erwin123

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Amazon productI'm using a budget Apera pH meter. Hey, it got 3370 reviews in Amazon. When I first got it and put it into the calibration solution, it was only 0.1 off from the reference solutions.

Amazon productHere's the more expensive multi-test.
 

arcturus

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Would this pH meter from Hanna suffice : Hanna HI-98100 Checker plus pH tester
Seens these products are pretty expensive :D

Most of them usually suffice for a (short) while. Low quality devices tend to have low quality probes that require frequent calibration. The probe will eventually start giving erroneous readings. Better to invest on a device with a replaceable probe (such as the GHM Greisinger 609850 or a better device). When the probe fails, then invest on a good quality probe since it will last longer and you will end up saving money in the long run. But it makes absolutely no sense to put a lot of money on a high-tech setup with CO2 injection and then trying to save money buying a low-tech device that does not enable you to properly measure CO2...
 

ceg4048

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Would this pH meter from Hanna suffice : Hanna HI-98100 Checker plus pH tester
Seens these products are pretty expensive :D
Hi Monis,
Wow, I'm really shocked at the pricing although I'm not familiar with the Danish Krone. According to the currency conversion charts that is about $65 in US currency, whereas in USA that same probe retails for about $40. So that is not too bad for a probe with two point calibration and with a replaceable probe. These are the two most important features and is definitely better than reagent based test kits. My choice would be for the HI-98108, shown just to the right on that page, but that cost 574 Krone. Again, compare how much money people are willing to spend for fancy lights.
Also I have good amount of surface agitation and flow in my tank. Now I am confused as to at what point the degassed pH needs to be measured. I was thinking it’s at the point when all the co2 is degassed and the PH is fairly constant. Pls let me know the correct interpretation
Hi, you are over-thinking this problem. As mentioned, the natural pH of your water should be the starting point. All you have to do is take a sample in a bottle and shake it up for 5 minutes or so, or let it sit on the counter for an hour. Whatever pH is measured is a good starting point. Subtract 1 and there is your target. Keep it simple. You can always make adjustments from there and as your plants grow in you very well may need to adjust the target downward - but look at your plants. Are they healthy and algae free? Are the fish healthy? Ultimately, those are the only parameters you need to worry about.

Do not fret over what number to use. In fact, people using ridiculous amounts of lighting often require a much larger pH drop to avoid algal blooms.

Here is an example of my tank using absurdly high lighting. In my case hair algae was a constant companion, even with good flow/distribution, so it was necessary to use a higher injection rate if I didn't want to reduce the lighting. Over a period of a few weeks I was able to drop the pH by a full 2 units from the natural pH of the tank . This was accomplished slowly and carefully while observing the fish. Again, when done deliberately and carefully the fish are resilient and easily adapt. The CO2 was on for only 4-5 hours and that allowed the fish to recover.
8395165784_b0282135c1_c.jpg


So there is a wide margin if your distribution is adequate. Folks often have difficulty with their fish adapting to CO2 because of poor flow /distribution, so concentrate on that, observe the tank and do not worry about which number to use,

Cheers,
 

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