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I always encourage shrimp only no matter if its nano or just your usual community fish. Its the same with those nano set ups for shrimp like jars, and small bowls. I think sometimes shrimp dont get the same treatment that we do with our fish. We wouldn't treat our fish like that, but shrimp is all i keep so im a bit picky, and bias about it. My next tank is going to be set up for breeding Reticulated hillstream loaches. I have set up, and care for 3 other planted tanks with community fish that belong to my father in law so will be a nice change for me.
neofy705
Member
Even in a dedicated tank of their own I'd still have the same questions about water changes and fertilisers.
There's no doubt that fish complicate things but i'm thinking if improving the water changes and nitrates can make things better for them.
Honey gouramis IME are not a threat to adult neos. I see them pick food from the substrate half an inch from cherries without them showing interest in the shrimp or the shrimp being scare.
In my case it's a fairly large tank, the rummynose school tightly and are mostly on the mid region of the tank. Honeys are mostly at the top. Even dead shrimp are not being touched. So I think the fish selection is not the problem here even if it's not ideal
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Looks like you're trying to have your cake and eat it 🙂
I dont think the cost of you upsetting an already dialed in system is worth it.
Lets us know what you end up doing /deciding.
I wouldn’t worry about the quantity of ferts you are using. I dose 12ml per day of TNC complete & 2ml per day of TNC Iron in my 60 litre co2 injected tank and both my cherry shrimp and Amanos are all happy. The shrimp do have plenty of hiding places though when young though such as the dwarf hair grass. My only fish are a shoal 19 ember tetras so only the baby shrimp could ever potentially be a meal. My cherry shrimps breed like mad 😀
neofy705
Member
I didn't mean to come across as ignorant. As I said I'm only a newbie to shrimp keeping and high tech tanks.
It's mostly a question of how are shrimp affected by the 50% water changes and high ferts dosing in high tech tanks.
I see a lot of people keeping shrimps in high tech tanks with fish. I'm trying to understand how they make it work as both EI/WC/co2 and fish complicate things.
I appreciate ur input. I'm considering converting my other tank to a shrimp only tank and once I have a growing population to transfer the culls in the main tank.
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Andy Pierce
Member
I keep amanos (and fish) in an EI/CO2 environment with 50% weekly water changes without obvious problems for the amanos. I also keep cherrys in a separate no-fish no-CO2 1/2 EI environment again with 50% weekly water changes and again without obvious problems. The shrimp happily bred up to food capacity - I don't ever feed the shrimp other than what they can get from biofilm in the tank. I use dechlorinated (Tetra AquaSafe) Cambridgeshire tap water which is off-the-scale hard. If you're having moulting problems with very soft water my first thought would be calcium deficiency, not anything to do with EI, water changes or CO2 as such.
neofy705
Member
So I just checked my tank with a flashlight. Granted it's a big tank will loads of plants and hiding places. I could see 5 cherry shrimp and 2 of them developed a saddle (?). They have yellowish backs behind their heads. Is this positive?
Out of the 3 crystals I ordered (as a test) 2 are alive and very active.
The amanos are enjoying life! All of them very active day and night. One of them is fanning what looks like a thousand eggs.
I fed with shrimp king protein and mineral now that most fish are asleep.
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No you're not coming across as ignorant. Its good to flesh these things out so we all learn a little something different.
If i set my heart on doing a community style tank with shrimp i would establish the shrimp first then add the fish as juveniles.
MichaelJ
Member
Hi @neofy705 Speaking from a low-tech perspective (not much different in this context) . 50% and high fertilizer dosing (within meaningful limits) is not a problem as long as you keep things stable. That is, if the WC water is similar to the water you take out of the tank in terms of water parameters you should be fine... which is quite easy if you maintain and dose consistently. What shrimps in particular are sensitive to are fluctuating water parameters that influences osmotic pressure which in turn can cause osmotic stress. Fish are more tolerant even though they generally dislike fluctuations as well. And of course keeping water parameters healthy and stable is always a winning strategy for your overall tank health. Shrimps need a good deal of Calcium and magnesium to properly support development of their exoskeleton and molting process. A GH of 4 as you quote is on the low side. You need to increase that to the +5 GH range with the remineralizer your using (seachem equilibrium) to be on the safe side.
Looks like you have plenty of hiding places for shimplets/juveniles from micro predators such as the tetras and that’s a good thing.
Other than that you should be good.
Cheers,
Michael
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neofy705
Member
Thanks Michael, when it comes to matching the parameters of the water I match kh, gh and temp (and age the water to stabilise the ph). I find it impossible to match ph and tds.
Since I'm using aqua soil the ph of the tank is close to neutral. But adjusting for gh and kh results in an alkaline water (in the bucket)
Do you match all parameters?
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for what it's worth, I have a broadly similar set up to you. I started with ~25 cherry shrimp in December and now could easily have a thousand.
120cm tank, very heavy planted and with tetra and cory. High energy and CO2, KH 2-3 GH 5, EI ferts with 50-60% weekly water change. Careful to match parameters
I don't overfeed the tank. I have a shrimp feeding dish, which they learned to use after two days, that I spot feed them a variety of dedicated shrimp foods with minerals
120cm tank, very heavy planted and with tetra and cory. High energy and CO2, KH 2-3 GH 5, EI ferts with 50-60% weekly water change. Careful to match parameters
I don't overfeed the tank. I have a shrimp feeding dish, which they learned to use after two days, that I spot feed them a variety of dedicated shrimp foods with minerals
neofy705
Member
Taking into account what everyone said yesterday I increased the gh to 5-6 and kh to 3. I did this over 7 hours using a drip system. Tds jumped to 300!
I don't know if it's a coincidence or placebo but all the shrimp look more active.
I believe kh3 and gh5 is the ideal middle ground for caridina and neocaridina.
I have rescaped my 54l tank with the intention of converting it to a shrimp tank. In doing that I had to move my 10 cory babies to the main tank. (Born and raised in that tank but their growth was stunted... this is the reason I bought the bigger tank). After a year they are the size or a cherry shrimp. So far they are chilling together.
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I don't know if it's a coincidence or placebo but all the shrimp look more active.
I believe kh3 and gh5 is the ideal middle ground for caridina and neocaridina.
I have rescaped my 54l tank with the intention of converting it to a shrimp tank. In doing that I had to move my 10 cory babies to the main tank. (Born and raised in that tank but their growth was stunted... this is the reason I bought the bigger tank). After a year they are the size or a cherry shrimp. So far they are chilling together.
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MichaelJ
Member
Yes, I do, but I also use 100% RO water which makes this much easier. I prepare my WC water to match all target parameters (N/P/K/Ca/Mg) and I age my WC water usually for a day as well to make sure it reaches a matching temperature (within a degree C or so) and to outgas any dissolved gasses such as CO2 the water treatment plant might add which is not removed by the RO system - not sure how much of an issue this really is, but since I have the water sitting there anyway I take any additional benefit the aging might give. My GH by the Ca/Mg dosing sits around ~5.5 GH and my KH just below ~1 KH (0.75 KH).
What’s the tds of your straight tap btw?
Cheers,
Michael
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neofy705
Member
Tds from tap ranges from 60-90.
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MichaelJ
Member
That’s usually great water to start with - unless it’s high on zinc, copper or other serious contaminants. If your only adding equilibrium to raise your GH 2-3 GH on top of your tap’s 3 GH and doing TNC complete (?) according to what you state above your TDS shouldn’t really much higher than 150 ppm or the lower 200 ppm range -
depending on your actual tap reading (60 vs 90 ppm). I understand that your also raising KH? What chemicals are you using to do that ? My advice would be to not worry about KH - it probably shouldn’t be a clean zero. Around or slightly below 1 is fine and similar to most natural habitats for our tropical plants and livestock.
Cheers,
Michael
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neofy705
Member
Hi Michael, I'm using this.
I'm not too sure what to do with the kh if I'm being honest. The tropica soil I'm using lowers the ph. Before I added livestock the ph would drop to 5.5! So I added some kh up to buffer the water as I was worried snails and cherries would struggle.
I also use it to match the tds of the WC water with the tank water.
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Hi all,
If you did want to carry on with them? Then adding some <"Oyster Shell Chick Grit"> to the tank will add both dGH and dKH (<"at a ratio of 1 : 1">) and literally <"costs chicken feed">. *
* If that links stop working it £2 for a kilogram.
As the others have said lots of plants and fish (and some shrimps) do better in softer water and your active substrate will carry on softening the water until it is exhausted (when the conc. of calcium ( Ca++) ions is the same in substrate and water). The problem, with most of what you read about <"pH stability">, is that it was written by people who don't understand water chemistry and / or want to sell you a product.
In terms of the NT labs "KH up" it is a very expensive way of purchasing either sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) or potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) (one or both will be on the label). I know it will be one, or the other, because it is only the <"carbonates of group one metals that are soluble">.
Potassium bicarbonate would be more suitable (potassium (K)+ is a plant nutrient, sodium (Na+) isn't), but <"the bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) is exactly the same"> in both cases), but I'll guess it is totally / mainly NaHCO3, just because it is a fractionally cheaper chemical to buy.
cheers Darrel
You are fine at the moment in the UK, because we are still using the EU rules and they are <"very, very proscriptive"> about heavy metal levels, once the <"BREXIT bonus"> fully kicks in <"Flint, Michigan beckons">.
The simple answer would be to stop keeping Cherry Shrimps and hard water snails. Personally that is what I'd do, it just cuts out a lot of mucking about.
If you did want to carry on with them? Then adding some <"Oyster Shell Chick Grit"> to the tank will add both dGH and dKH (<"at a ratio of 1 : 1">) and literally <"costs chicken feed">. *
* If that links stop working it £2 for a kilogram.
As the others have said lots of plants and fish (and some shrimps) do better in softer water and your active substrate will carry on softening the water until it is exhausted (when the conc. of calcium ( Ca++) ions is the same in substrate and water). The problem, with most of what you read about <"pH stability">, is that it was written by people who don't understand water chemistry and / or want to sell you a product.
In terms of the NT labs "KH up" it is a very expensive way of purchasing either sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) or potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) (one or both will be on the label). I know it will be one, or the other, because it is only the <"carbonates of group one metals that are soluble">.
Potassium bicarbonate would be more suitable (potassium (K)+ is a plant nutrient, sodium (Na+) isn't), but <"the bicarbonate ion (HCO3-) is exactly the same"> in both cases), but I'll guess it is totally / mainly NaHCO3, just because it is a fractionally cheaper chemical to buy.
cheers Darrel
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neofy705
Member
Hi Darrel,
I understand this. In fact I have kept and bred fish (corys, german blue rams and even my first batch of cherry shrimps a year ago that unfortunately ended up being consumed by the filter) in zero kh water with a wildly fluctuating ph.
I have been following tropica's instructions as per the app as well as green aquas suggestions to add snails and shrimp to prevent algae. I guessed if such "big" names suggest it it should be fine. Maybe their secret is RoDi water.
I think I will keep the gh up and only add a tiny amount of kh up so that kh is not zero.
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