Should i start to fertilize?

[Lapul]

I all
Tank is running for about 11 weeks
In the last few days i have noted that the bacopa c. Is struggling a bit...
Some top leaf tips are melting end the emergent are way too clear to my eyes.
could it be an iron deficiency?
i have plants that are growing partially emersed, so i think they are requiring more that i can give them now (without fertilizing)
water parameter:
pH 7
KH 2
GH 8
TDS 260ppm
NO3 5 to 10 ppm
PO 4 almost 0...
plant:
Vesicularia - partially emersed
Hydrocotiyle - Emersed, mostly
Micranthemum m.- partially emersed
Bacopa c.- partially emersed
Anubias barteri nana
Anubias petite
Buchephalandra lamandau
Eleocharis minima bottom and a couple emersed
no CO2 injection no heater, substrate flourite
lights :
Led 46w 4100 lumen on a shallow tank (120*35*25h)
12 hours of lighting
20% 1h 1/2
40% 2h
80% 4h
40% 2h
10% 1h 12

Inhabitants :
18 Sawbwa resplendes
4 amano shrimps
some neocaridina shrimps (davidi) too
Should I help the "ecosystem" with a light fertilization?

thanks a lot
Cri

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Some top leaf tips are melting end the emergent are way too clear to my eyes.
could it be an iron deficiency?

You get iron (Fe) deficiency in new leaves, because iron isn't mobile within the plant. Looking at your Bacopa that definitely suggests lack of iron.

Everything else looks pretty healthy.

Have a look at @jameson_uk (with <"traditional apologies">) two Amazon Frogbit threads <"Frogbit taken a turn"> & <"Duckweed Index says Nitrogen please?">. I use Amazon Frogbit (Limnobium laevigatum) as my <"nutrient "canary">, but this <"maybe of interest">.

Should I help the "ecosystem" with a light fertilization?

I probably would, we have plenty of <"lean dosing"> threads that may offer a way forward.

cheers Darrel

 

[Lapul]

probably would, we have plenty of <"lean dosing"> threads that may offer a way forward

Thank you Darrel
I have read many of these topics, very interesting 😎
I will also carefully read Michael's topic

Cris

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Looking at your Bacopa that definitely suggests lack of iron.

You might be interested in @_Maq_'s thread <"Maq's experiment 23b">, he also has chlorotic Bacopa lanigera in one of his treatments <"which has harder water">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Courtneybst]

From my experience after the last tank setup, straight away is best 😅

 

[Lapul]

straight away is best

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

From my experience after the last tank setup, straight away is best

That is the safest option.

It really depends on which deficiency you have. For most nutrients they are mobile within the plant, so when they become plant available the plant can just shuffle them to where they are needed and you get a fairly instant <"greening / growth response">.

But the non-mobile nutrients <"are more problematic"> and I've started using a <"hybrid Duckweed Index"> approach, where I add iron (Fe) on a regular (but <"fairly ad hoc.">) basis.

The advantage of this is that it allows me to always use the growth and leaf colour of the my non-CO2 limited floating plant <"to assess nutrient status">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Lapul]

Hi all

i just finished read the long thread (Michael J)

At the end i feal i am at the starting point unfortunately.

I also read the other interesting thread (Maq)

Both experience starts from quite soft water so, what make me think, is that i could struggle a little bit more if it is (as it sems ) iron deficiency, having harder water.
Furthermore none of these experiences starts with plants species having access to "unlimited" CO2

Maybe i can add a floating plant (Limnobium l.) But doesn't the added floating plant compete again for iron?

Other submerged plant like anubias and Buchephalandra probably due to their slow growing rate need less nutrients, but wouldn't Bacopa risk to suffer even more?
In the tank now i have 20/21 °C i expect even worst condition when temperatures will reach 25/26° C
Some more questions...
1- May i try with some "already done" valid product ?
(e.g. Tropica s.,Seachem, APT...)
In order to expedite the fertilization process, before start to make "by myself" dose.
or it is better to add only FE to exclude other deficiency?

2- Since the beginning i am mixing TAP water with RO water, initially maybe due to the substrate i have had hight GH at more than 15, KH almost fixed at 2.

How is it possible? If i weekly add the same ratio 50/50 that give me KH 5 and GH 7 find KH 2 and GH 8 in to the tank? Again related to the substrate?Plants?

Thanks a lot for patience

Cris

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Both experience starts from quite soft water so, what make me think, is that i could struggle a little bit more if it is (as it sems ) iron deficiency, having harder water.

Generally iron availability is much less of an issue in water with lower alkalinity. Because iron (Fe) is a bit of a <"two edged sword">, you could easily tip into iron toxicity in acidic, reducing conditions .

Furthermore none of these experiences starts with plants species having access to "unlimited" CO2. Maybe i can add a floating plant (Limnobium l.) But doesn't the added floating plant compete again for iron?

Yes, a floating plant will take up all nutrients and act as a nutrient sponge. I look on that as a good thing, because they are easy to remove, and when you remove them? You export those nutrients. The advantage is that they aren't CO2 (or light) limited, so deficiencies symptoms are nutrient based.

Other submerged plant like anubias and Buchephalandra probably due to their slow growing rate need less nutrients, but wouldn't Bacopa risk to suffer even more?

Some plants show iron deficiencies really quickly, Rotala rotundifolia is one that features in a <"lot of these threads">. If you add enough plant available iron (Fe++(+)) to keep your Limnobium healthy, then everything else is probably going to be OK.

Once you get to <"this stage"> it is going to take a while to get back to healthy growth.

or it is better to add only FE to exclude other deficiency?

I'd probably start with just an <"iron chelate">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Lapul]

probably start with just an <"iron chelate">.

I think i am going to insert in the tank some limnobium 🙂
As far as FE, i can purchase easily Seachem Iron or Easy Life Ferro
What do you think?
Maybe Easy life is more tailored regarding my pH 7?

Thanks Cris

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

i can purchase easily Seachem Iron ......... Maybe Easy life is more tailored regarding my pH 7

<"Seachem Flourish Iron"> isn't ideal if you have a pH value above pH7? The problem is that it is <"ferrous gluconate based">. I'm going to assume that they use ferrous gluconate because it is a <"cheaper chemical than any of the chelates">.

Easy Life Ferro

I think this one contains FeDTPA, so would be more suitable. Personally I would buy a <"horticultural product">, they are a <"lot cheaper">.

cheers Darrel

 

[Lapul]

think this one contains FeDTPA, so would be more suitable. Personally I would buy a <"horticultural product">, they are a <"lot cheaper">.

Yes! you are absolutely right about cost, i will start with this one then i will go with an horticultural "route"
But ...first of all, the floating plant!

 

[Lapul]

I'd probably start with just an

Hi Darrel
You were obviously right😎

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hi Darrel
You were obviously right

Brilliant, I thought that was probably the answer, but that looks pretty conclusive, and now I'm struggling with <"Frogbit Envy"> all over again.

You can really see the switch from chlorotic to green leaves on the Bacopa as soon as iron (Fe++(+)) became <"plant available">.



cheers Darrel

 

[Hufsa]

Brilliant photo!

 

[Lapul]

Small update

 

[_Maq_]

Looking at your Bacopa that definitely suggests lack of iron.

In my experience, iron is indeed usually the first nutrient missing in a new tank. However, looking at the photo, I wouldn't exclude the possibility of manganese deficiency.

you could easily tip into iron toxicity in acidic, reducing conditions

From my experience, there's no danger as long as you maintain the water column reasonably oxidized. I work with soft acidic water regularly, and haven't spotted any instances of iron toxicity, ever.
That leads me to an alternative way of supplying iron to a tank. When establishing it, I usually add powdered ferric oxide to the substrate. You can do it anytime later, except it colours the water (temporarily). It's a safe long-term source of iron. The effect is delayed, though. An iron nail added to the substrate works in the same way.
Only selected species really need chelated iron if pH is above 7. In nature (natural conditions), they can't survive in basic water. I'm not sure whether B. caroliniana belongs among them; I've experimented with B. lanigera which is much more demanding species.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

In my experience, iron is indeed usually the first nutrient missing in a new tank. However, looking at the photo, I wouldn't exclude the possibility of manganese deficiency.

Agreed, I think following @Hufsa's <"manganese (Mn) revelations">, manganese deficiency must always be considered as a source of chlorosis in new leaves. I'm guessing for most of us we will get enough trace manganese in our water supply.

I think in this case we can definitely say iron (Fe) availability was the issue. Because @Lapul went from:

to

When they changed chelator.

<"Seachem Flourish Iron"> isn't ideal if you have a pH value above pH7? The problem is that it is <"ferrous gluconate based">. I'm going to assume that they use ferrous gluconate because it is a <"cheaper chemical than any of the chelates">.

Easy Life Ferro
What do you think?

I think this one contains FeDTPA, so would be more suitable.

I'm not aware that I've ever seen iron toxicity either, possibly because I also like a lot of oxygen.

From my experience, there's no danger as long as you maintain the water column reasonably oxidized. I work with soft acidic water regularly, and haven't spotted any instances of iron toxicity, ever.

That leads me to an alternative way of supplying iron to a tank. When establishing it, I usually add powdered ferric oxide to the substrate. You can do it anytime later, except it colours the water (temporarily). It's a safe long-term source of iron. The effect is delayed, though. An iron nail added to the substrate works in the same way.

Substrate iron (even as ferric oxides) is much more likely to become available in acid conditions. <"Iron (Fe) and water"> I think iron in the form of iron hydroxides will remain permanently unavailable (unless the pH drops really low and conditions are anaerobic?) and the same applies to iron rich clays that have been calcined etc.

Only selected species really need chelated iron if pH is above 7. In nature (natural conditions), they can't survive in basic water. I'm not sure whether B. caroliniana belongs among them;

I'd guess from the photo that it doesn't do well in high alkalinity <"Bacopa caroliniana - Tropica Aquarium Plants">

cheers Darrel

 

[_Maq_]

I think iron in the form of iron hydroxides will remain permanently unavailable (unless the pH drops really low and conditions are anaerobic?)

Most of the iron in nature is in the form of ferric hydroxides (there are multiple forms of trivalent iron (hydr)oxides). Plants can utilize it often on their own, par example by exuding siderophores (grasses) or blends of simple organic acids (citric, malic, oxalic, etc.). These are fully capable to reduce/dissolve ferric hydroxides, even in oxic environment.
There are significant species variations in the degree of such abilities, though.
Another chapter is taking advantage of microbial actions. Various bacteria and fungi are extremely efficient in acquiring iron. As you stressed yourself on multiple occasions, a kind of symbiosis develops between a plant and microbes in the rhizosphere. This is a highly advanced chemical laboratory.
In sum, I would not subscribe to an assessment that "iron hydroxides will remain permanently unavailable".