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Should I keep doing daily water changes?

Aqua Hero

Aqua Hero

Member
Joined
8 May 2015
Messages
357
My water test kit arrived today and the readings are interesting.

Ammonia 10ppm
Nitrite 8ppm
Nitrate 40ppm

The good news is my tank is cycling (it's only about 3 weeks old) the bad news is that it seems like it's gonna take a long time to finish cycling.

I have been doing daily 70% water changes for a week now and was planning to cut it down to 2 days and so on. But looking at these readings I'm not to sure now.

Fortunately my plants are growing really well and fast (terrestrial and aquatic) and I don't have any algae in my tank.

What are your thoughts?




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Since i dont check my waterparameters anymore every 2 days my plant grow much better.
I dont trust the drops etc. Look at your plants. Now you have your method cut down with the fertz every week and check for changes etc. Start tweaking them in your fertelizing plan.
 
Aqua Hero said:
I may have put a bit too much miracle gro root tabs in the substrate when setting up the tank


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While I agree with the others that test kits can be innacurate and not the only indicator of water quality, I would still be cautious and wouldn’t add any livestock just yet.

Have you tested the water you are using for water changes with the same test kit? It would be informative to see what results you get.

I have no experience with root tabs (I water column dose) but it may be helpful to others to quantify “a bit too much”.
 
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
While I agree with the others that test kits can be innacurate and not the only indicator of water quality, I would still be cautious and wouldn’t add any livestock just yet.

Have you tested the water you are using for water changes with the same test kit? It would be informative to see what results you get.

I have no experience with root tabs (I water column dose) but it may be helpful to others to quantify “a bit too much”.
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I'll test my tap water tomorrow morning but may I ask why you guys think test kits arent good?

I can't really describe what too much is but sprinkled quite a lot of miracle gro pellets on my substrate and then capped over it with tropica substrate and tropica aqausoil (which I'm told also perches out ammonia too)


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Aqua Hero said:
may I ask why you guys think test kits arent good?
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I actually think they are quite good. The problem is that we often accept the tests as being factual but we’re not trained and don’t have access to lab conditions. We’re just hobbyists comparing two slightly different shades of green in our living room.

I think they’re useful as a complimentary tool in general aquarium husbandry. If you have plants in your tank then you also have a very helpful indicator of water quality. It requires experience and some practice to interpret plants as an indicator but if we can use the plants and the test kits together then we get a clearer picture.

Why do I think you should be cautious? Well 10ppm is a lot of ammonia. If you said you had 0.25ppm I’d maybe be sceptical as it’s difficult to interpret the scales at low concentrations. But 10ppm is a significant number. The actual number could be 3ppm, 5ppm, 20ppm but all of those are dangerous to livestock.

EDIT: I use test kits in the initial set up of an aquarium but once it’s established, unless I see something change, I don’t test. Recently I put my TDS meter into one of my tanks (which is currently plant only) and had it on pH mode. It said pH9. That surprised me so I got my other pH test kits out and checked it. My test kits agreed it was actually just above 7 which is what it would expect. I decided my TDS/pH meter was at fault so when I get chance I’ll check the calibration.
 
Aqua Hero said:
but may I ask why you guys think test kits arent good?
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Test kits in and of themselves are not the problem, it's generally the person doing the test, or rather their interpretation of the results that brings in wild inaccuracies.

On a side note test results don't help grow healthy plants.... that's why we say test kits are no good.
 
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simon_the_plant_nerd said:
I actually think they are quite good. The problem is that we often accept the tests as being factual but we’re not trained and don’t have access to lab conditions. We’re just hobbyists comparing two slightly different shades of green in our living room.

I think they’re useful as a complimentary tool in general aquarium husbandry. If you have plants in your tank then you also have a very helpful indicator of water quality. It requires experience and some practice to interpret plants as an indicator but if we can use the plants and the test kits together then we get a clearer picture.

Why do I think you should be cautious? Well 10ppm is a lot of ammonia. If you said you had 0.25ppm I’d maybe be sceptical as it’s difficult to interpret the scales at low concentrations. But 10ppm is a significant number. The actual number could be 3ppm, 5ppm, 20ppm but all of those are dangerous to livestock.

EDIT: I use test kits in the initial set up of an aquarium but once it’s established, unless I see something change, I don’t test. Recently I put my TDS meter into one of my tanks (which is currently plant only) and had it on pH mode. It said pH9. That surprised me so I got my other pH test kits out and checked it. My test kits agreed it was actually just above 7 which is what it would expect. I decided my TDS/pH meter was at fault so when I get chance I’ll check the calibration.
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I've tested my tap water.

Ammonia: 0.2ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 20ppm

So my tap water is good

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Hi all,
Aqua Hero said:
I may have put a bit too much miracle gro root tabs in the substrate when setting up the tank
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There isn't much you <"can do about that">, other than wait and keep on changing some water. @erwin123 posted some graphs in <"Osmocote plus disaster"> that show an approximate time scale for TAN ammonia depletion,
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
I would still be cautious and wouldn’t add any livestock just yet.
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Agreed, I'm guessing that it will be several months before the tank is livestock safe, even with really good plant growth.
Aqua Hero said:
I'll test my tap water tomorrow morning but may I ask why you guys think test kits arent good?
Click to expand...
Aqua Hero said:
I've tested my tap water.

Ammonia: 0.2ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 20ppm
Click to expand...
Like the others have said the problem is <"the solubility"> of both <"ammonia / ammonium (NH3 / NH4+)"> and <"nitrate (NO3-)">. This means that you have to follow a multistep process to get a coloured compound that you can measure to indicate their level.

Because of your tap water results* you may well have those levels of fixed nitrogen, via uncontrolled release from the controlled release fertiliser. You can see plant growth, and that is why the <"Duckweed Index"> works, the plants can't lie.

* You are unlikely to have 1 mg / L (ppm) nitrite (NO2-) in your tap water as the <"regulatory limit is 0.5 ppm">.
simon_the_plant_nerd said:
The problem is that we often accept the tests as being factual but we’re not trained and don’t have access to lab conditions.
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<"That is really it">. We actually test a lot of water samples in the teaching lab., with students who aren't necessarily chemistry trained, so I have a good idea of what can go wrong. The <"Estimative"> and <"Duckweed Indices"> were both developed (entirely independently) partially because of the difficulties in getting accurate nitrate (NO3-) test results.

cheers Darrel
 
dw1305 said:
Hi all,

There isn't much you /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/i-made-a-substrate-from-hell-i-want-to-change-it.70600/#post-706445']can do about that[/URL]">, other than wait and keep on changing some water. @erwin123 posted some graphs in /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/osmocote-plus-disaster.68749/#post-683635"]Osmocote plus disaster[/URL]"> that show an approximate time scale for TAN ammonia depletion,

Agreed, I'm guessing that it will be several months before the tank is livestock safe, even with really good plant growth.


Like the others have said the problem is /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/cloudy-water-hazy-water-and-algae.73692/page-3#post-742817']the solubility[/URL]"> of both /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/maqs-substrate-experiment.73119/page-5#post-742405']ammonia / ammonium (NH3 / NH4+)[/URL]"> and /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/few-problems-with-my-little-slice-of-nature.61970/page-2#post-611314']nitrate (NO3-)[/URL]">. This means that you have to follow a multistep process to get a coloured compound that you can measure to indicate their level.

Because of your tap water results* you may well have those levels of fixed nitrogen, via uncontrolled release from the controlled release fertiliser. You can see plant growth, and that is why the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-is-the-%E2%80%9Cduckweed-index%E2%80%9D-all-about.73647/#post-742156']Duckweed Index[/URL]"> works, the plants can't lie.

* You are unlikely to have 1 mg / L (ppm) nitrite (NO2-) in your tap water as the /www.north-norfolk.gov.uk/info/private-water-supplies/private-water-supplies-nitrate-and-nitrite/']regulatory limit is 0.5 ppm[/URL]">.

/www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/testing-kit-recommendations.68587/page-2#post-682408']That is really it[/URL]">. We actually test a lot of water samples in the teaching lab., with students who aren't necessarily chemistry trained, so I have a good idea of what can go wrong. The /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/low-nitrate-level.70459/#post-704271']Estimative[/URL]"> and /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-is-the-%E2%80%9Cduckweed-index%E2%80%9D-all-about.73647/#post-742163']Duckweed Indices[/URL]"> were both developed (entirely independently) partially because of the difficulties in getting accurate nitrate (NO3-) test results.

cheers Darrel
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I have to do daily water changes for several months ?!. Damn I knew I should have been patient and continued the dark start

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Hi all,
Aqua Hero said:
I have to do daily water changes for several months ?!
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No, you can reduce their frequency as the <"plants grow in">. When you prune the plants you're <"removing all forms of fixed nitrogen"> (and other nutrients) from the tank.

As long as you have <"enough oxygen">, <"the microbial flora"> (in the filter and tank substrate) will also <"change dependent upon the ammonia loading">. You can keep fish at <"insane stock rates"> (so basically it is an analogous situation, but in that scenario it is the fish continually leaching ammonia into the aquarium, rather than the substrate) with <"efficient biological filtration">.

Where plants come in is that <"plant / microbe biofiltration"> is potentially an <"order of magnitude"> more efficient than <"microbe only"> biofiltration.

I actually started down the <"Duckweed Index"> route when we were doing work with <"waste water"> and it occurred to me that if you could <"use phytoremediation"> to vastly improve the water quality of polluted water you could use the <"same approach"> to produce very high quality water in aquariums.

cheers Darrel
 
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dw1305 said:
Hi all,

No, you can reduce their frequency as the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-expensive-bio-media-worth-it.67468/page-7#post-670333']plants grow in[/URL]">. When you prune the plants you're /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-expensive-bio-media-worth-it.67468/page-6#post-669951']removing all forms of fixed nitrogen[/URL]"> (and other nutrients) from the tank.

As long as you have /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/dwarf-gourami-fat-or-something-worse.73600/page-2#post-746423']enough oxygen[/URL]">, /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bacteria-biological-starters.52928/page-2#post-524358']the microbial flora[/URL]"> (in the filter and tank substrate) will also /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/correspondence-with-dr-ryan-newton-school-of-freshwater-sciences-university-of-wisconsin%E2%80%94milwaukee.71023/#post-711158']change dependent upon the ammonia loading[/URL]">. You can keep fish at /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/bio-media-for-planted-tanks.65587/page-2#post-648989']insane stock rates[/URL]"> (so basically it is an analogous situation, but in that scenario it is the fish continually leaching ammonia into the aquarium, rather than the substrate) with /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/the-order-of-filter-media-in-oase-biomaster.67732/#post-671350']efficient biological filtration[/URL]">.

Where plants come in is that /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/where-is-the-bacteria.65185/#post-644885']plant / microbe biofiltration[/URL]"> is potentially an /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/planted-aquarium-fishless-cycle-before-planting-or-cycle-with-plants.65402/#post-647276']order of magnitude[/URL]"> more efficient than /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/is-it-possible.73929/#post-745995']microbe only[/URL]"> biofiltration.

I actually started down the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-is-the-%E2%80%9Cduckweed-index%E2%80%9D-all-about.73647/#post-742177']Duckweed Index[/URL]"> route when we were doing work with /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/easy-way-to-test-and-breakdown-of-what-to-test.63358/#post-625141']waste water[/URL]"> and it occurred to me that if you could /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/ro-vs-nitrate-removal-filter.24231/#post-249234']use phytoremediation[/URL]"> to vastly improve the water quality of polluted water you could use the /www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-is-the-%E2%80%9Cduckweed-index%E2%80%9D-all-about.73647/#post-742236']same approach[/URL]"> to produce very high quality water in aquariums.

cheers Darrel
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Would you say now is a good time to trim the monte carlo or should I wait a couple weeks for it to grow a bit fuller?a159d5943065bf491eb7cea7cbecbff5.jpg

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@Aqua Hero, The immaturity of the tank (being only 3 weeks old), the possible heavy handed dose of Miracle Gro (Urea) and the leaching enriched substrate is what makes your TAN very high at this point. Keep changing some water regularly (not excessively) to get rid of the TAN excess. Bacteria and plants will take care of it in due time, but it will take quite a while if your TAN level is currently 10 ppm.

In general, it's the ammonia (NH3) that kills our livestock. What we measure with our test kits such as API is Total Ammonia Nitrogen (NH3+NH4). The deadly NH3 part of the TAN is a function of water temperature and especially pH. While NOT RECOMMENDED we could conceivably keep livestock at a TAN level around 5 ppm if our water is acidic (pH stays solidly at 6.5 or below all the time) and our water temperature is say 22 C. However, in such an environment a spike in pH to say 7.5 would push the NH3 level into lethal territory as the NH3 level increases 10 fold for every 1.0 increase in pH. API recommends a TAN of 0.25 ppm or below - this is actually a sound safety recommendation to accommodate the common situation where hobbyists will be using moderately hard to hard tap water (alkaline really) which tend to find a pH equilibrium around 8 - 8.5.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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Hi all,
Aqua Hero said:
Would you say now is a good time to trim the monte carlo or should I wait a couple weeks for it to grow a bit fuller?
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With the proviso that I have <"zero practical knowledge of carpet plants>", but you need to retain as much plant mass as possible at the moment. Personally I'd leave it a couple of weeks and then give it a fairly light chop over.

"Ease of removal" is one of the real advantages of a floating plant. If you think they need "trimming"? 30 seconds later the job is done and if you've decided you've gone too far? 10 seconds later you are <"replanted">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Using stem plants as a filtering aid at Start Up!

The subject of using fast-growing stem plants as part of a filtering aid has cropped up a few times recently. This idea has been around for a long time so not new, it has benefits, especially for a new setup. 1. Improves water quality. 2. Reduces excess light. 3. Reduces diatoms. 4. Reduces...
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So I have good news, after doing multiple tests spread throughout the day I'm glad to say that my cycle has transitioned to the next stage and I no longer have high ammonia readings (my tests have shown 0.2ppm) and I have 8ppm Nitrites.

My question now is Do I have to do excessive water changes for high nitrites? I know high levels of ammonia contribute to algae blooms but is this the same case with high nitrites?

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