Seachem prime ????

[EnderUK]

Okay I haven't found a definite arguement that says plants can deal with the Chloramine. Personally I do read skepticalaquarit but I read it like I would wiki, skeptically. So stick with Ian and sciencefictions advice and continue to use tap safe.

 

[Claire]

Just when people are saying about safe being difficult to measure, I really don't find it difficult to measure as I use the little baking measuring spoons as I said, and the smallest spoon ⅛ teaspoon does 90l. You dose (I think) 4x this amount for ammonia, so you don't need to worry about getting it exact right down to the last grain.

 

[EnderUK]

I'm a yorkshireman born to a Scottish accountant, of course getting it to the last grain is important 😀

Sent from my Radar C110e using Tapatalk

 

[EnderUK]

Just when people are saying about safe being difficult to measure, I really don't find it difficult to measure as I use the little baking measuring spoons as I said, and the smallest spoon ⅛ teaspoon does 90l. You dose (I think) 4x this amount for ammonia, so you don't need to worry about getting it exact right down to the last grain.

from seachem website http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Safe.html

Chlorine: use 1 measure to each 130 L (35 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm). 1 measure = 100 mg or 0.1g

A dash (level 1/8 of a teaspoon) is 0.6g of Safe.

I have smidgen spoon 1/32 and I measure out a tiny corner of that to get about 0.03g for 25L. I measured it out today to check but I have been eye balling it on water changes.

 

[three-fingers]

Not an issue with a planted tank, you'd have to ask some one else for the exact science but the choramine breaks down into chorine which gases off and ammonia which plants gobble up. Three fingers I read that safe does not have the stablizing agents of prime so you can't pre mix the batch.

I read that too, only from Seachem marketing folk though 😉. I also remember seeing forum posts of people saying it was fine. I see no reason why the chemicals would need stabilisers to work in RO water, it looks and smells the same, never had any problems with 80% water changes and my waters treated with both chlorine and chloramine.

 

[ian_m]

Here is a link to water list of water companies that use chloramine, as not all do.
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=317946

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4400

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I lost count the number of forum posts I have read where people (in UK) have stopped using dechlorinator and gone over to using air stones couple of days before water change, then wiped out their tanks due to chloramine being added to the water.....Issue is, in UK at least, chloramine may be added to water, with zero notice to provide extra sterilisation to domestic water, due to supply "issues". Thus you should always dose dechlorinator, regardless, or suffer the consequences in the link I gave previously

I don't use tap water partially for this sort of reason, but I think Ian is right that most of the problems with chloramine have come about due to "emergency" chloramine dosing when water main integrity is breached. I first became aware of it as a problem after the freeze and thaw during the winter of 2010/11 damaged a lot of water mains and subsequently a lot of plec keepers lost all their more rheophilic L numbers.

I think the "Skeptical Aquarist" is right, and although chloramine is a reasonably stable compound, the disinfectant is still chlorine (as hypochlorous acid HClO), and it this trickles out as the chloramine breaks down to Cl- and NH3(NH4+). Because it is trickling out over time, a planted tank will mop up the NH3.

Seachem won't tell you how "Prime" works, but Kordon's "Amquel" has a patent <http://www.kordon.com/kordon/products/water-conditioner/amquel#compatabilities!> and I would be very surprised if the mode of action of Prime is much different.

I would suspect that all the newer, "better" conditioners (have a look at the blurb for "Amquel+") use EDTA and sodium hydroxymethanesulphonate (or similar). The EDTA chelates any heavy metals (as long as Fe ions aren't present in large amounts) and the hydroxymethane - end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble compound "aminomethanesulphonate". The sulphonate end of the molecule reacts with both free-available chlorine, and combined-available chlorine in chloramines. Any ammonia (from the break down of the chloramine) is then mopped up by the sodium hydroxymethanesulphonate.

cheers Darrel

 

[sciencefiction]

and it this trickles out as the chloramine breaks down to Cl- and NH3(NH4+).

Hi Darren. One thing I don't understand. Chloramine in its stable form is most dangerous so if its tickling out ever so slowly then it confirms the point that it's very slow to break down. . So what happens in the tank until the bond is broken? Aren't the chloramines harming everything in the tank while in it's stable form? Especially since one doesn't really know the amount of chloramines because as far as I know one can use certain dose of chloramine on fish to treat them from bacterial infections but obviously that kills all sorts of other bacteria such as nitrifying bacteria and possibly others.
I am not opposing that any mature tank can deal with chlorine and ammonia fast enough due to surface agitation/mature filters but it's the chloramines a tank can't deal with from what I understand on regular basis. You'd be wiping out your microorganism every so often even if you don't manage to kill the fish outright as with a fish safe chloramine doses it's like treating them with toxic meds every weekend during a water change.

 

[ian_m]

If the chloramine from the water supply doesn't kill the fish first time, (it passes straight through their gills into bloodstream), the ammonia from rotting dead bacteria killed by the chloramine will make them suffer more.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Chloramine in its stable form is most dangerous so if its tickling out ever so slowly then it confirms the point that it's very slow to break down. . So what happens in the tank until the bond is broken? Aren't the chloramines harming everything in the tank while in it's stable form?

I think the answer to that is that chloramines themselves are toxic to fish, from "Chlorine-induced mortality in fish". Grothe, D. et al. (1975) Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 104:4, pp. 800-802.

Chloramine passes through the gills of fish and enters the blood stream. There, it reacts with haemoglobin, forming methaemoglobin. In fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas) exposed to 1 ppm-Cl of monochloramine, for example, about 30% of the haemoglobin is converted into methaemoglobin. The fish then suffer from anoxia (low oxygen in their tissues) because they have lost some of their haemoglobin, which is responsible for carrying oxygen in the blood.

Cheers Darrel

 

[ian_m]

How drinking water is disinfected.
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/sciences/consultancy/dladmin/zCIWEMPOTWAT/Activity5/act5.html

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I am not opposing that any mature tank can deal with chlorine and ammonia fast enough due to surface agitation/mature filters but it's the chloramines a tank can't deal with from what I understand on regular basis. You'd be wiping out your microorganism every so often even if you don't manage to kill the fish outright as with a fish safe chloramine doses it's like treating them with toxic meds every weekend during a water change.

I think that probably is a pretty reasonable summary. High levels of oxygenation, small water changes and heavy planting cut down the risk involved with water changes with tap water, but there will always be some risk.

Personally I've never used tap water (I've always used rain-water) and I've never kept a non-planted tank where biological filtration was dependent upon the microbial conversion of ammonia to nitrate.

There are risks involved with rain-water as well, but by using the "Daphnia bioassay" <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/distilled-deionised-water.26098/> they are much reduced.

How drinking water is disinfected.

The Staffs University water industry web pages are great. I assume that they were meant to be hidden behind a pay-wall, but you can download the whole course by changing the "/Activityn/actn.html" ending.

cheers Darrel

 

[Claire]

from seachem website http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Safe.html

Chlorine: use 1 measure to each 130 L (35 gallons*) of tap water (removes 1 ppm). 1 measure = 100 mg or 0.1g

A dash (level 1/8 of a teaspoon) is 0.6g of Safe.

I have smidgen spoon 1/32 and I measure out a tiny corner of that to get about 0.03g for 25L. I measured it out today to check but I have been eye balling it on water changes.

On my tub of safe it says to use 5g (1 teaspoon) per 750l. Which to me works out about ⅛ per 90l. Maybe the concentrations are different for the sizes or something as the tube I have is the small 250g one.

 

[EnderUK]

On my tub of safe it says to use 5g (1 teaspoon) per 750l. Which to me works out about ⅛ per 90l. Maybe the concentrations are different for the sizes or something as the tube I have is the small 250g one.

that's for 4ppm of Chlorine, again read that link I gave you. We don't have 4ppm in our water. Just trying to save you ££££ my safe should last my 125l 90 years at ei dosage water changes.

 

[Claire]

Well to be honest I don't know how much is in my water, I've just been following the instructions and find it still to be very economical. The point is that you can follow the instructions and make life simple for yourself without having to try and measure minuscule amounts, which is what some people were complaining of.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

that's for 4ppm of Chlorine

You'd know if you had 4ppm chlorine in your water, you can taste it from about 0.5 ppm upwards, 2 ppm is pretty unpleasant and a municipal swimming pool would only have 4 or 5ppm. The USA has much more heavily chlorinated water than us because they don't invest any money in water quality, and the Netherlands don't need to chlorinate their water supply at all, mainly because they've invested in infrastructure etc.

cheers Darrel

 

[ian_m]

Netherlands don't need to chlorinate their water supply at all, mainly because they've invested in infrastructure etc

Not quite. Interesting you mention this as I bumped into this the other day.
http://students.chem.tue.nl/ifp42/netherlands/Current.html

Use a combination or chlorine, UV and ozone.

However this is old and chlorine in form of chloramine is now being added.
http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-tap-water-be-chlorinated

In UK we suffer from leaky Victorian water infrastructure, so more chlorine has to be added usually less than 1 ppm (0.2ppm in my area), which normally you can't smell or taste.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Not quite. Interesting you mention this as I bumped into this the other day.

Thank for that, it is interesting. I think the bottom line is that you can't really argue with chlorine as a cheap and efficient disinfectant for drinking water, and that chloramine has the advantage of providing disinfection for longer.

We might not be very happy with it as fish keepers, but providing safe drinking water has to be the primary consideration, and I expect that more water suppliers will move over to using chloramine.

Personally I've always used rain-water, and I'm fairly happy that it is a better option than tap for me, although I realise that it isn't an option for every-body.

cheers Darrel

 

[sciencefiction]

Plenty of rain here but I am having trouble fitting the tank on the window sill in my apartment 🙂
Personally, my local tap is treated with just chlorines and low level at that. I've forgotten to dechlorinate tanks in the past and I've come back to seemingly unaffected fish. But for some reason I still pump Prime at water changes because I like spending my money on something that I can't even buy in a local shop here. It's fun getting online deliveries and paying almost as much for the postage as it costs to buy the Pirme. But I guess my mind is clear 🙄

 

[ian_m]

I think the bottom line is that you can't really argue with chlorine as a cheap and efficient disinfectant for drinking water

In about 1991 due to scare stories about chlorine in water generating organo-chlorines (which it can at very high doses and unsuitable pipework) chlorine was removed from water supplies leading to about 10,000 deaths due to cholera and other water born diseases.