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Seachem method of potassium dosing

there are many other factors at play
Apart from microbes sequestering nitrogen in their cells, ammonia is subject to degassing (esp. when pH is higher), plus denitrification of which we know lamentably few. How much nitrogen is lost due to denitrification in our tanks? We can only guess...
 
I recall that vanadium is an essential element for some organisms (marine?), just like cobalt is essential for cyanobacteria. We often host the latter even without kind care from Seachem specialists. For me, that's just one more argument for not to worry about these micro- nano- elements. Like you said, we'd likely find the whole periodic table in our tanks, incl. attractive gold, uranium, and others.
 
Hi all,
NH4 is rather rapidly consumed, especially the floaters consume it very quickly in comparison to NO3. If most of the N is coming from NH4, it will certainly be
consumed at higher quantities. In another word, if you were to add 1 ppm N from NH4 vs NO3, you will find that plant growth is much superior when using NH4 and there is hardly any buildup of NO3. On the other hand if you were add 1 ppm N from NO3, the nitrogen consumption is rather slow or low. The end result is usually high level of NO3 in the water.
I'm not a plant physiologist, but I understand that there are <"kinetic advantages"> for plants to uptake fixed nitrogen (N) as the ammonium ion (NH4+) from TAN (ammonia (NH3) / ammonium (NH4+)).
I think most plants will take up ammonium (NH4+) preferentially, just because it requires less energy input. (<"Comparison of four aquatic plant treatment systems for nutrient removal from eutrophied water">)
Having said that I'm not personally too bothered what form that <"fixed nitrogen is supplied in">, for the reasons covered in the <"all day buffet"> thread.

Plenty of aquascapers just add nitrogen as nitrate (NO3-), via potassium nitrate (KNO3) etc., and still get good results.

cheers Darrel
 
Plenty of aquascapers just add nitrogen as nitrate (NO3-), via potassium nitrate (KNO3) etc., and still get good results.
Fish food and decaying organic matter (incl. dying microbes) is the source of ammonium in such conditions. In most cases, though, ammonium content in water column remains close to zero. Is it because ammonium adorbs in the substrate, or because plants take it up preferentially? I think we can't tell for sure. Most likely, both factors are at play.
 
Hi!
Well..I have a problem with staurogyne repens, but I dose a really sufficient amount of fertilizers per 36l of water in a week:
2,64 NO3,
0,32 PO4,
4,48 K,
0,5 Fe
and micro.
But I have hard water kH 9 gH 19..
That's why I asked about Potassium, because it seems that potassium is not enough, but I dose it a little more Nitrogen and it should be enough, right?
Thanks a lot.
 

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Hi all,
Is it because ammonium adorbs in the substrate, or because plants take it up preferentially? I think we can't tell for sure. Most likely, both factors are at play
We can't tell, but because NH4+ is:
I think we can safely predict that most of the TAN will be mopped up pretty quickly (and converted to the protein) by both plants and microbes.

I think everyone should have access to <"Ammoniacal nitrogen removal by Eichhornia crassipes-based phytoremediation: process optimization using response surface methodology - Applied Water Science">*
...... This study investigated the optimum condition for AN removal from wastewater using Eichhornia crassipes-based phytoremediation process.......... AN removal was the main focus in this study....... the highest AN removal efficiency of 77.48% (initial AN concentration = 40 mg/L) was obtained at the following optimum condition: pH 8.51, retention time of 8.47 days, macrophyte density of 21.39 g/L and salinity of 0 g NaCl/L.
*Ting, W.H.T., Tan, I.A.W., Salleh, S.F. et al. (2020) Ammoniacal nitrogen removal by Eichhornia crassipes-based phytoremediation: process optimization using response surface methodology. Appl Water Sci 10, 80

cheers Darrel
 
I think everyone should have access to
The study is interesting a.o. for the fact that ammonia removal worked well in high pH environment. We could have expected very very high ammonia toxicity, and yet...
 
Hi all,
We could have expected very very high ammonia toxicity, and yet...
I think that Pontederia (Eichornia) crassipes (Water Hyacinth) is the ultimate "turned up to eleven" plant.

Basically it can utilise <"all the nutrients and sunlight you can throw at it">, but it needs plenty of everything, including temperature <"Implications of global climate change for the development and ecological interactions between two key Amazonian aquatic macrophytes">.
........ We used Eichhornia crassipes and Pistia stratiotes, two abundant aquatic plants in the Amazon floodplains, to evaluate the effects of combined temperature and [CO2] increase on growth, physiology and ecological interactions. Individual and paired plants were deposited for three weeks in a microcosm under four IPCC scenarios: control (current temperature/CO2), mild (control + 1.5 ºC, 200 ppm CO2), intermediate (control + 2.5 ºC, 450 ppm CO2) and extreme (control + 3.5 ºC, 850 ppm CO2). P. stratiotes died after three weeks in the intermediate and extreme treatments; E. crassipes experienced no mortality or change in any of the measured variables during the same period. P. stratiotes reduced root length in the mild treatment and reduced total dry biomass in intermediate and extreme treatments, revealing less tolerance to climate change. Ecological interactions between the two species changed with increasing [CO2] and temperature neutral interaction changed to facilitation for E. crassipes .........
These ecological characteristics have led to Eichornia crassipes being, simultaneously, one of the World's worst weeds <"Factsheet - Eichhornia crassipes (Water Hyacinth)"> , and
...... Eichhornia crassipes grows and spread rapidly in freshwater. It can withstand extremes of nutrient supply, pH level, temperature, and can even grow in toxic water. It grows well in still or slow-moving water. Water hyacinth invasion is facilitated by water bodies that are enriched by agricultural chemicals, sediments from catchment erosion, domestic effluents and plant nutrients. Water hyacinth is widely considered to be the world's worst water weed.......
the preferred option for lagoon phytoremediation in tropical climates.

<"https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925857416304736">, <"Eichhornia crassipes (Mart.) Solms: Uses, Challenges, Threats, and Prospects"> & <"Temperature influences swine wastewater treatment by aquatic plants">.

cheers Darrel
 
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Hi all,
It's Seachem looking for the poor fellow who inevitably swallows some water when starting a siphon.
<"That's me">.

I just need to start using <"Seachem fertilisers">, and avoid contracting <"Fish-keepers lung">.
............. . I'll start by asking a very silly question, but you have put the the inlet and outlet hoses the right way around? I spent a fruitless five minutes on Saturday with an Eheim 2224 before I realised I'd connected the inlet hose to the spray bar.......
cheers Darrel
 
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Greetings @M.eremin
I think the thread has deviated a little from your original question, having said that I think the question regards equilibrium got a fairly rounded answer.

Hi!
Well..I have a problem with staurogyne repens, but I dose a really sufficient amount of fertilizers per 36l of water in a week:
2,64 NO3,
0,32 PO4,
4,48 K,
0,5 Fe
and micro.
But I have hard water kH 9 gH 19..

I think to get the best possible advice regards your specific issues it might be better to start a separate thread, this way folks can get all the info regarding your tank and then at least try and diagnose what the problems are.

Give as much info as possible, the more info supplied the better. Here's a run down of the type of information to add.


Without knowing that much about your tank my initial suspicion is that you are trying to follow a lean ish dosing regime, whilst using hard tap water, I'm not sure the two go hand in hand.

Again, without all the info we are merely grasping at straws.

Cheers.
 
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a lean ish dosing regime, whilst using hard tap water, I'm not sure the two go hand in hand.
All natural habitats are short of phosphorus and nitrogen. (Occasionally potassium.) That's because these two are Liebig's limiting nutrients globally.
This scarcity of P & N is valid for all types of soils & waters. Other elements form a sort of background. They may be abundant (hard water) or lean (soft water) but principally always in sufficient supply.
Therefore, we can take for sure there are many aquatic plants able to thrive in waters rich in all minerals (hard waters) with lean supply of phosphorus and nitrogen.

Note: This is also the reason why farmers fertilize with NPK ferts, and why anthropogenic increase of N & P is so harmful for the environment. Intact habitats are consistently very very lean in P & N.
 
Therefore, we can take for sure there are many aquatic plants able to thrive in waters rich in all minerals (hard waters) with lean supply of phosphorus and nitrogen.
This bit I understand.

I've no practical experience with "true" lean dosing but from observations with others who have success with this approach the underlying constant seems to be using very soft acidic water.

Your post above also raises another time old question of ratios. In the lean dosing approach a lot of emphasis seems to be placed on this. If somebody is using hard water with unknown, uncontrollable ratios of xyz then we either have to accept that nutrient ballance per se in this situation will be way out of whack, thus the system won't work; Or, we we accept nutrient ratios don't really matter when following a lean dosing approach (providing we limit N&P), which, if true, raises another question as to why people bother following ratios.

As always Maq I ask these questions in genuine search of knowledge.
 
Hi all,
Your post above also raises another time old question of ratios. In the lean dosing approach a lot of emphasis seems to be placed on this. If somebody is using hard water with unknown, uncontrollable ratios of xyz then we either have to accept that nutrient ballance per se in this situation will be way out of whack, thus the system won't work; Or, we we accept nutrient ratios don't really matter when following a lean dosing approach (providing we limit N&P), which, if true, raises another question as to why people bother following ratios.
I just start from a slightly different place, basically use a <"commercial fertiliser mix"> and then use the <"growth, colour and vigour of a floating plant"> to tell you whether you are adding enough nutrients, and whether <"those nutrients are plant available">.

If you have a conductivity meter you can work out your conductivity datum range, or you can use a <"snail shell index"> to work out if you are adding enough enough dGH / dKH.

cheers Darrel
 
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use the <"growth, colour and vigour of a floating plant"> to tell you whether you are adding enough nutrients, and whether <"those nutrients are plant available">.
I do not dismiss these 'naked eye' diagnostics. Quite the contrary. After all, that what we can see, i.e. growth & health of our plants, is the ultimate judge. If I follow some 'Marschner' rules and plants don't prosper, then it's clear that those rules, while generally useful, do not work well in given circumstances and some other factors need to be considered. Theoretical guidelines are the starting point, very important, but no more than that.
The only drawback of 'observation management' is that it cannot be transferred from one person to another. To put one's experience on paper, we need numbers.

Or, we we accept nutrient ratios don't really matter when following a lean dosing approach (providing we limit N&P), which, if true, raises another question as to why people bother following ratios.
Let's stick with potassium; after all, it's potassium which is mentioned in the title of this thread.
In nature, metal cations regularly appear in this pattern: Ca > Mg = Na > K. There are exceptions, of course. Par example, in East Africa, sodium dominates and magnesium is often more abundant than calcium. With few exceptions, though, potassium is the least abundant. At the same time, potassium is most required by plants among these four.
How did the plants reflect this situation? They developed specific transporters for potassium, while the other cations are served by non-specific cation transporters. Plants "know" that potassium is in short supply and have adapted. These are generally valid facts on plant physiology.
However, we know that natural vegetation differs depending on habitat conditions, among which absolute and relative abundance of these cations plays a role. Obviously, some species possess competitive advantage in given circumstances. Par example, some species are highly tolerant to East African soil conditions.
What is important to keep in mind is that such specialists do not need to take up more or less potassium. They are only better equipped to withstand this particular nutrient imbalance, but their physiology requires basically the same amounts of Ca, Mg & K, while Na is mostly redundant.

Would it be possible to keep such plants in more "regular", "favourable" soils? In most cases the answer is positive, with one caveat: they need human care to protect them against competition of other species which are better adapted to these more regular conditions. Par example, Samolus valerandi inhabits sodic (NaCl) bogs in nature, but not because it needs sodium, but because this species forms poor roots and needs desert space for germination of seeds. With such a weak armory, it can compete only in places not inhabitable for most competitors. Yet as we know, Samolus can thrive in very soft acidic water devoid of any sodium (personal experience).

In our tanks, we protect our plants from competition. On the other hand, we force species from various regions to live together in artificial conditions, not very similar to any of those in the nature. Is it possible to blend a water which will suit to all of them?
Probably not, but the answer is not clear. Other circumstances - namely good lighting and elevated CO2, and probably others - can help significantly to withstand water with mineral content which differs very much from what given species prefers. Par example, I've learned that I can't keep Ludwigia glandulosa in pH above 7. Well, my lighting is rather modest and I don't enhance CO2; others who do proved that cultivation of this species in basic water is possible.
CO2 injection makes it all much easier for plants because it's a source of abundant energy. All adaptation is basically a question of energy.

When attempting creating 'universal water', Marschner is indispensable. But you must read the whole of it, not just the table in the first chapter (which is not originally by Marschner, by the way). Then you learn why there should be less potassium than magnesium and calcium in the solution, in spite of the fact that potassium is in highest demand. This is certainly true both for soft and hard waters.
Now, many hobbyists, namely those using EI method and injecting CO2, overdose potassium almost insanely and still their plants are well. Like I said, CO2 is a source of unlimited energy, and plants need energy, among others, both for uptake and refusal of nutrients. (There's a term 'futile cycling' for this phenomenon.) CO2 injection is a way to overcome valid rules, and this is why I don't employ it. I want to know the rules.

The question of hard water ratios cannot be separated from other variables, esp. pH and alkalinity. I'm vastly more experienced in soft waters. With my formulae, I rarely face cases of nutrient deficiencies / imbalances. It seems that well-thought ratios suit almost all species. However, I also face some mysteries. Some undemanding plants - namely Echinodorus and Cryptocoryne - do not grow well for me. If nothing worse happens, they remain more or less small. Nothing for an exhibition.
Be assured I've attempted increased dosing, meaning P & N above all. No tangible results. I've observed that (some) crypts grow better, bigger during summer. I don't heat my tanks, possibly they require higher temperatures? Not sure.
Do they need significantly harder - more mineralized - water? Why? They are monocots, calcium is a micronutrient for them! - This question remains open.

But as a whole, my answer is YES, ratios definitely matter, both in soft and hard waters.
(The chart below shows some ratios which I currently employ in some of my tanks.)

1699622699112.png
 
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Hi all,
I do not dismiss these 'naked eye' diagnostics. Quite the contrary. After all, that what we can see, i.e. growth & health of our plants, is the ultimate judge. If I follow some 'Marschner' rules and plants don't prosper, then it's clear that those rules, while generally useful, do not work well in given circumstances and some other factors need to be considered. Theoretical guidelines are the starting point, very important, but no more than that.
The only drawback of 'observation management' is that it cannot be transferred from one person to another. To put one's experience on paper, we need numbers.
I agree, in the long term we can only move forward with experimentation and <"the scientific method">. I'm a pretty <"shoddy scientist and aquarist">, and I'm willing to <"bump along the bottom">. Others will have <"higher standards">.

If there was a dip meter, like a thermometer, or conductivity meter, where you could dip it in the tank and get an accurate reading for potassium (K+), magnesium (Mg), nitrate (NO3-) etc I would heartily recommend it.

cheers Darrel
 
This bit I understand.

Your post above also raises another time old question of ratios. In the lean dosing approach a lot of emphasis seems to be placed on this. If somebody is using hard water with unknown, uncontrollable ratios of xyz then we either have to accept that nutrient ballance per se in this situation will be way out of whack, thus the system won't work; Or, we we accept nutrient ratios don't really matter when following a lean dosing approach (providing we limit N&P), which, if true, raises another question as to why people bother following ratios.

As always Maq I ask these questions in genuine search of knowledge.
That's what I want to understand. If I have high calcium, then I have to keep higher values of Potassium, Phosphate, Nitrogen, Iron on a constant basis. But how much exactly?
 
If I have high calcium, then I have to keep higher values of Potassium, Phosphate, Nitrogen, Iron on a constant basis.
No, not really.
But how much exactly?
In the end, it's up to you. A good starting point is nitrogen. How much nitrogen do you need? It depends primarily on CO2 & light. If you run high-tech, you'll probably need 10 mg/L NO3-, or maybe even more. In low-tech, see my chart above.
Nitrogen to phosphorus ratio is known, it should be around 16 : 1 [on molar basis]. Similarly, potassium to nitrogen is also a given: 1 : 4 [molar]. There may be more potassium, but not less.
As for K, Mg and Ca, there should be several times more Ca & Mg than K. Mg to Ca ratio is less important than people often believe. Only in hard waters, sometimes there's too much calcium and too little magnesium. If that is the case, you should add magnesium. A ratio 1 : 2 [again, molar] for Mg : Ca is ideal, 1 : 5 still acceptable for most plants.
 
1699667030009.png
As Vin points out, the top right corner is blank.

The slide also implies that it is referring to Water column nutrients and that nutrients from soil may not have such 'limitations' but that is another multi-page thread. For completeness, his present was on plants from the lythraceae family (Rotala, Ammannia, etc) 🙂
 
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