sand as bottom layer shure to create toxic gasses?

[curlingmom]

Should I empty all and start over? Or is it not as dangerous a set up as I am told?

I have topped a bagged substrate with 2-3 cm. chiclid sand.
(Do not remember the name of the substrate. It was a gift. Something amazonian-ish. Texture and color as wet: grey clay)

Along the edges of the sand I have covered the bags with substrate 5 cm.
Now I lam told that debris sinking into it it could create pockets of toxic gasses lethal to the fish if released.

In the planted areas afterwarsd have the sand given a bit more structure by adding a few handfulls of 3-4 mm. grit.
Also to help plants root better.

I clean with a light hand once a week, change apprx 20-30% water, add a 2-3 dried, brown walnut leaves.
Give mainly frozen food, "oat meal worms" (english name?) and a sinking cory tablet.
(I hope the corys get any of the tablet given the amanos and hrimps.)
+ occational shrimp sticks + a pinch of montmorolite clay.

The tank balances nicely but after I have begun feeding "oat meal worms" the bottom area just below the feeding flap have begund to take on a fuzzy-mushy and grey look inbetween the weekly cleaning.

Is this due to uneaten, dead worms? Or is it deposits of "oatmeal soup" that might tag along with a scoop from the sides of their breeding box?

If so. What would you do? Stop feeding the worms?
(I prefer the worms as live food to prevent importing diseases and pests from the half dead - and quite expensive - store bought live food.)

Thank you in advance for any input you may have to my many questions.
Kind regards

Practical info:
120 l Tank matured for two months.
temperature apprs: 21 C
Populated for i guess three months now.
Plants: various cryptocorynes, bucephalandras, anubias and amazonian swords, banana lily, aponogeton ulvaeus, schismatoglottis prietoi . + frogbite + a free floating vrey green greedy plant.
Fish: All very small.
7 amandae + one bloodfinn tetra having hijacked the group at the store
5 Yellow finned White mountain Cloud Minnows
9-11 Pygmy corydoras
5 amanos
6 Celestian Pearl Danios
unknown hord of ghost shrimps.
10 tropica fertilizer in capsules added. Probably needs 10 by now.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

oat meal worms" (english name?)

Grindal Worms (Enchytraeus buchholzi)? or the, much smaller, "Micro" worms? (Panagrellus spp.)

cheers Darrel

 

[mlgt]

For what its worth I have a 350l Rena tank that I set up 13 years ago with argos play sand. It is between 3.5-4 inches and there are times when I have rescaped and pulled out a thick root such as crinium or large swords and crypts in the back and there was some sulpher smell. but I was already in the process of doing a 50% water change. I have rescaped 4-5 times in these years.

I made sure when I set up the tank that I used a chopstick to stir the substrate in patterns over a period of the week when it was first set up. If it would make you feel at ease why not just hoover these fuzzy mush when you do water changes? I suspect its the leaves breaking down. You could also turn off the filter to ensure that the microworms fall in the same area instead of blowing around in the tank too?
If the fish are very small, you could be potentially be overfeeding? You could time your water change an hour after you done a feed for next time and see if that changes anything?

For me I have angels, rainbow emperors, cories, khuli loaches, amanos and a clown plec. I feed twice a day with a small pinch that allows them to finish the food within 30 seconds.
I run 2 x jbl filters and do a large water change every two weeks in the tank but I have healthy plants and no deaths in my tank for years.

 

[Bradders]

@curlingmom - do you have a picture, please, so we can see what you are looking at?

 

[curlingmom]

Hi all,

Grindal Worms (Enchytraeus buchholzi)? or the, much smaller, "Micro" worms? (Pangrellus spp.)

cheers Darrel

Thank you, Darrel. Now I remember. I bought them as "micro worms". And they indeed are micro.

 

[curlingmom]

@curlingmom - do you have a picture, please, so we can see what you are looking at?

Hi Bradders. A most reasonable request. 🙂 I have tried to upload but withut succes. I will try again. 🙂

 

[curlingmom]

WOW. it worked this time. .. and voila. Egeria densa is the dense, floating green plant. I regularily cut ist roots and keep it as shade to the anubias untill the frogbite have taken a bit more over but will kepe some as some of the more skiddish fish thrives in its canopy . 🙂

 

[curlingmom]

For what its worth I have a 350l Rena tank that I set up 13 years ago with argos play sand. It is between 3.5-4 inches and there are times when I have rescaped and pulled out a thick root such as crinium or large swords and crypts in the back and there was some sulpher smell. but I was already in the process of doing a 50% water change. I have rescaped 4-5 times in these years.

I made sure when I set up the tank that I used a chopstick to stir the substrate in patterns over a period of the week when it was first set up. If it would make you feel at ease why not just hoover these fuzzy mush when you do water changes? I suspect its the leaves breaking down. You could also turn off the filter to ensure that the microworms fall in the same area instead of blowing around in the tank too?
If the fish are very small, you could be potentially be overfeeding? You could time your water change an hour after you done a feed for next time and see if that changes anything?

For me I have angels, rainbow emperors, cories, khuli loaches, amanos and a clown plec. I feed twice a day with a small pinch that allows them to finish the food within 30 seconds.
I run 2 x jbl filters and do a large water change every two weeks in the tank but I have healthy plants and no deaths in my tank for years.

Hi mlgt. THANK YOU so very much. Love your suggestions.

Good to read that you have had sand this way withoiut problems for so long and that you have been able to uproot and redecorate without any problems.

Regarding bubbles:
During the first weeks I several times Iiberated trapped air in the sand by poking and gently stirring without disturbing the roots of the newly planted plants.
Yesterday several newly formed bubbles escaped the bottom in the feeding area as I stuck in a long, slim rod to help keep the lid open while vaccuming the bottom before a water change.
I almost froze as I have read this instantly would kill the fish. They seemed unaffected though and as interested in beeing fed as always.

Regarding leaves, mulm and regular dirt - and hoovering:
I leave the leaves long enough to build a mikrofauna for the cory-fry and other fry eventually surviving the fish but with the sand I do not have the courage to leave the leaves long enough to decompose as such. (They still leave some "snuffle" on the sand for the hoover.)
(Here I am a bit comfused as to what is fry-& mikrofauna beneficial mulm and what is unwanted dirt? (Other than poop and maybe decomposing leaves ) )

Regarding food:
I think you are very right. I offer them too much food. Visible left overs after 30 seconds ( the micro worms probably too.)
My concern is that the dwarf corys will starve as the amanos are ferosious mikro-stuff eaters and the fish are all hogging any free flowing food super fast.

Your fish are larger than mine I can read - and still thriving on just a pinch a day.
Food for thought... I will experiment with a pinch, a stop watch and one arm tied on the back. 😉 .

Thank you again. 🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Now I lam told that debris sinking into it it could create pockets of toxic gasses lethal to the fish if released.

it worked this time. .. and voila.

I wouldn't have any worries about that, I'm sure the substrate is fine. If you were concerned some Malaysian Trumpet Snails (Melanoides tuberculata) might help

I bought them as "micro worms". And they indeed are micro.

I feed them to the Corydoras pygmaeus as well <"Microworm culture">, although mine might be <"Banana Worms">.

cheers Darrel

 

[mlgt]

Its good that there was no ill effect to the fish, but for piece of mind if there is a large air pocket or strong smell. I would probably suggest to perform a water change as I would assume some of the gas exchange would affect water chemistry perhaps.
I understand in regards to feeding the dwarf cories, but half a tab of algae wafer will also benefit the cories or bottom feeders at night time too. Amanos are very clever and even in my tank they would grab a wafer and go hide!

Heres a photo from the weekend after a water change, you can see there is mulm build up and algae on the side of the tank. This is a low tech tank. I dose probably once a month.

 

[curlingmom]

Hi all,


I wouldn't have any worries about that, I'm sure the substrate is fine. If you were concerned some Malaysian Trumpet Snails (Melanoides tuberculata) might help

I feed them to the Corydoras pygmaeus as well <"Microworm culture">, although mine might be <"Banana Worms">.

cheers Darrel

Thanks, Daryl. I have already got Helena snails (also called assasin snails). They too should dig?

 

[MichaelJ]

To chime in on the question stated in the title: My only reservation with sand, fine sand especially, is lack of (or at least limited) flow throughout the substrate which indeed could cause buildup of toxic gasses if the tank is not well maintained.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Bradders]

As I as on this topic, it reminded me of this (very long) read.

Covers aspects of oxygen, substrate (deep sand beds) and hydrogen sulfide. I found it quite interesting, albeit above my degree grade!

14.2.4.1. Anaerobic Science in the Aquarium

Anaerobic or anoxic conditions only occur in the aquarium in the gut of the fish, NEVER elsewhere in an aquarium.

aquariumscience.org

 

[PARAGUAY]

Me too out of my depth

 

[FrozenShivers]

As I as on this topic, it reminded me of this (very long) read.

Covers aspects of oxygen, substrate (deep sand beds) and hydrogen sulfide. I found it quite interesting, albeit above my degree grade!

14.2.4.1. Anaerobic Science in the Aquarium

Anaerobic or anoxic conditions only occur in the aquarium in the gut of the fish, NEVER elsewhere in an aquarium.

aquariumscience.org

I've read through most of this site about a year ago, I thought it was a pretty interesting read, but then I found many opinions online if people saying that some of it was actually not actually correct and/or very scientific, I've no idea either way as I am not a scientist, much of it is also above my pay grade!

To chime in on the question stated in the title: My only reservation with sand, fine sand especially, is lack of (or at least limited) flow throughout the substrate which indeed could cause buildup of toxic gasses if the tank is not well maintained.

Cheers,
Michael

Am I correct in thinking that this is less of an issue if it's a thin layer of sand, for example 2-3 cm at the front of the tank? Is there any visible signs of pockets of harmful gases building up or does it only become apparent if the pockets are disturbed and released into the tank? I have a tank which has purely very fine sand (for corys), although it does also have Malaysian trumpet snails which should help.

 

[curlingmom]

To chime in on the question stated in the title: My only reservation with sand, fine sand especially, is lack of (or at least limited) flow throughout the substrate which indeed could cause buildup of toxic gasses if the tank is not well maintained.

Cheers,
Michael

Hi Michael and thank you,
Regrading maintenance:
I have felt as sitting between two chairs: 20-30% water changes once or during the week (orchids and other house plants love the water), vaccum the loose stuff and try to leave som debris to create a nourishing mulm for fry and my pymaeus in general. Each time I have been uncertain if the leftovers generate a ticking bomb.

Having read most of the interesting study/article posted by Bradders above I now feel somewhat consoled.
I however have to finish the read and probably read it again + read the article it refers to ("The whole topic of assimilatory denitrification via mulm has an entire article devoted to it..")

As I as on this topic, it reminded me of this (very long) read.

Covers aspects of oxygen, substrate (deep sand beds) and hydrogen sulfide. I found it quite interesting, albeit above my degree grade!

14.2.4.1. Anaerobic Science in the Aquarium

Anaerobic or anoxic conditions only occur in the aquarium in the gut of the fish, NEVER elsewhere in an aquarium.

aquariumscience.org

 

[curlingmom]

I've read through most of this site about a year ago, I thought it was a pretty interesting read, but then I found many opinions online if people saying that some of it was actually not actually correct and/or very scientific, I've no idea either way as I am not a scientist, much of it is also above my pay grade!



Am I correct in thinking that this is less of an issue if it's a thin layer of sand, for example 2-3 cm at the front of the tank? Is there any visible signs of pockets of harmful gases building up or does it only become apparent if the pockets are disturbed and released into the tank? I have a tank which has purely very fine sand (for corys), although it does also have Malaysian trumpet snails which should help.

There is no visible bubbles. The sand in that particular area had to be disturbed to release bubbles and tyhey did not smell. From what I (so far) have understood from Bradders link posted above, my fish should be in the clear. But also that debris sunken into the thin layer of sand should be left undisturbed not to release harmfull anaerob bacteria.

(Like if a filter have been switched off for a longer period and are reactivated without a thorough cleanse = A real risk of a lethal release of anaerob and harmful bacteria.)

... which brings me to another question rumbling in the back of my head and which I hope to get back to on another occation.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

The sand in that particular area had to be disturbed to release bubbles and tyhey did not smell.

That is fine.

cheers Darrel

 

[curlingmom]

Even if beeing a curling mom, I can ditch my worries about the pygmyes not finding enough food: P.t. they are too round to rest on their dorsal finns.

 

[curlingmom]

Hi all,

That is fine.

cheers Darrel

I actually just have poked the 2 cm in front hovering with my nose directly over the small bubbles arising. Unfortunately they smelled a bit sulphuric.
I wonder if deep cleans in the area with the hose can entrap any gasses and release it outside the tank. Could that work?