Sacrilege, I know :O

[ian_m]

Even when I run 54W x2 and plants are starting to suffer a bit, BBA still comes back week after week.

Try reducing light intensity and/or lighting period and adding more phosphate. Worked for me.

 

[parotet]

Also I don´t think that the fertilizer method is the only thing that differs (but that´s another story).

Please...

 

[Arne]

Well that escalated quickly

I'm sure someone has done it... Anyone out there?
I would love to know how much light it gives. Also for ADA Mini S and M which are frequently reported in some forum for having very bright lights for such a small volume

(Sorry Arne we are hijacking your thread...)

Jordi

No worries Jordi, I'm seeing a lot of usefull data and by the looks of it people were eager to discuss this.
Pretty fruitfull thread I'd say

Especially the ADA soil and fert analasys, thanks!
(Also my main question has been answered with a simple "no" )

 

[Marcel G]

Comparing two equal setups, both using aquasoil, with high-medium light levels ... and all the above mentioned optimized settings (Co2 injection and diffusion, filtration, flow, tank husbandry, etc.,): why ADA strategy relies on very low level of nutrients and EI on unlimited amount? ... My guess is that everything would be exactly the same in both tanks except the dosing system.

I think that there can be actually (in reality) no difference between ADA or EI tanks. The fact that ADA adds virtually no nutrients into their tanks vs. EI adds big amount of nutrients is insignificant. Why? Because that's not what makes these tanks flourish. The key to success IMO are not nutrients but something else. It's important to realize that plants don't need that much nutrients (the level that is recommended by EI is way higher that any tank will ever use up!). I know many tanks where there are no ferts added (just fish doing their job), and the plants grow well. So when we add fertilizer using EI method, often that's just not needed. If we used ADA ferts instead, our plants probably won't know the difference ... because they have enough nutrients even without EI method. Not always, but often (at least if you have some fish in there). Also (as already said) ADA substrates contain big amounts of nutrients, so this amount + "fish amount" = enough nutrients for our plants. If you add any more ferts (whether by ADA or EI), these ferts are probably not needed. Maybe micro's only + some small amount of potassium (or if you want your plants to grow like mad, just add a little bit of PO4). So that's the reason why ADA and EI have same results using seemingly different dosing systems.

Also according to my tests, it actually doesn't matter (to algae) if you use medium lights or strong lights. Actually the strong lights (100-150 µmol PAR at the substrate) seems to be better. Why? Because strong lights force plants to make more oxygen, which will more easily saturate the water. And this in turn helps bacteria to better and more rapidly mineralize the organics (not only in the substrate, but also in the water). So efficient filtration (efficient doesn't always mean bigger!) plus efficient microbes are keys to success. If microbes have enough oxygen and some amount of nutrients also, they will reduce organics to minerals (anorganic nutrients), so the conductivity of water will rise (that means that the microbes work hard). At the same time these minerals will nourish plants ... so again, the plants won't need extra nutrients (or just very small amounts). Also as organics are reduced by microbes, the TOC (http://www.prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/index.php?id=en_algaeTOC) is very low (as low as 0.5 to 1 ppm). So artificial ferts are not as important. If you grasp how to make good environment for microbes in your tank, then you'll have no problems with algae or plants. Microbes will get your tank into excellent condition (high redox).

That's how I understand it.

 

[parotet]

Very interesting point of view Marcel...

 

[pepedopolous]

Very interesting point though I'm not gonna turn my LEDs up just yet! Maybe I need to study about redox.

P

 

[flygja]

Try reducing light intensity and/or lighting period and adding more phosphate. Worked for me.

I have tried this before. BBA growth kept in check, but plants suffer. Rotala leaves very small, only about 1/3rd of their normal size. Stem plants lose all their lower leaves. H.tennellum and hairgrass start turning brown. Blyxa aubertii (I think) leaves start melting too. As as result of all this, I start getting diatoms.

 

[pepedopolous]

I have tried this before. BBA growth kept in check, but plants suffer. Rotala leaves very small, only about 1/3rd of their normal size. Stem plants lose all their lower leaves. H.tennellum and hairgrass start turning brown. Blyxa aubertii (I think) leaves start melting too. As as result of all this, I start getting diatoms.

I'm pretty sure you can correlate stem plants losing their lower leaves with not enough CO2 and/or flow. It's one of the few things I'm sure about in this hobby!

P

 

[parotet]

Hi all

I had some good readings last night and I think I have been able to understand this:

I think that there can be actually (in reality) no difference between ADA or EI tanks

Although I have to admit that all this understanding is based on this statement:

(the level that is recommended by EI is way higher that any tank will ever use up!).

And thus other methods try to be closer to plant uptakes, but also gets you to a critical area in which plant needs are not met...


So, let me comment some issues to see if my conclusions are consistent:

EI, Amano’s or whatever medium-high light tank will be successful first of all if the CO2 demand (also in terms of diffusion and distribution) is met, which is probably the most limiting factor for plant growth. Ferts therefore would have a secondary importance compared to another aspect we should better focus on:

Microbes will get your tank into excellent condition (high redox).

If I am not wrong, high redox is correlated to dissolved O2 on the water column and substrate (by the way our tanks are plenty of hungry aerobic critters), which can be achieved by:

- surface rippling, wet/dry filter, Amano’s recommended night aireation raising outflow…
- high plant biomass (feedback in terms of O2 production + microbes surface multiplied)
- tank husbandry (good WC, filter cleaning, etc. to renew O2 levels and to keep the system working aerobic and avoid organic building up)
- reasonable fish stocking (to avoid additional BOD due to the fish themselves and their waste)

... which will have a across-cutting benefit improving the biological filtering (and again optimum breakdown of organics, available nutrients for plants, good growing and more O2!). Now the sentence "focus on plants growing instead on fighting against algae", so many times stated in this forum, comes to my mind...

It’s amazing that during the last year I’ve been obsessed with CO2 injection in my tank and now that I managed to achieve something decent regarding Co2 injection, I am becoming obsessed with oxygen!

In summary, the answer to my question about differences between Amano’s fert programme and EI would be: we just need to provide enough… That’s the tricky point. Enough is difficult to be measured in a tank and although this “enough” is very different in both approaches we really don’t mind (I would add that from the economic point of view a “superexcess” in EI dosing is a lot cheaper that the “more adjusted fert Amano regime”. So just make sure there’s enough and focus on gases!

Mates… I love this forum.
(Thanks all for your patience and for letting me discover by myself what has been repeated thousands of times here... and sorry Arne for clearly hijacking your thread).

Jordi

 

[flygja]

I'm pretty sure you can correlate stem plants losing their lower leaves with not enough CO2 and/or flow. It's one of the few things I'm sure about in this hobby!

P

I don't know. I have two tanks with the same water, soil and EI fertilisation and its happening in both tanks. The rocks used are different, so my 60L tank has a higher KH. The 60L tank has a spraybar along the back of the tank connected to an Eheim 2217. CO2 is diffused at 2 bps through an Up-Aqua style inline diffuser. Yellow dropchecker with 4 dKH solution when lights are on.

You can see the tank over here - http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/60cm-the-edge.33151/

 

[Alexander Belchenko]

Jordi, excellent post. I think plenty of O2 is crucial point. To quote this forum (don't remember who said that): you need plenty of both CO2 and O2 in your planted tank.

I remember I read about ADA system of nutrients. I can find it but it's in Russian, so you need google translate.
In short: ADA relies on big amount of nutrients in the substrate (Amazonia gives nitrate, Power Sand gives phoshate and organic, special additives increase O2 in substrate and redox, I think). So water column has very little nutrients and therefore algaes have very little to eat. And plants mostly use nutrients from substrate. AFAIR first 3 months ADA system uses only/mostly potassium supplements (Brighty K). Also, it's very important to use mostly RO water. I remember Viktor Lantos said they used RO-only in ADA tanks for water change. Substrate/rocks raise KH/GH I guess.

 

[parotet]

Hi Alexander

So water column has very little nutrients and therefore algaes have very little to eat

As far as I have read here algae cannot be limited by being nutrient/light starved as they need very low amounts of them to thrive... you would first kill your plants that are the heart of your tank

Also, it's very important to use mostly RO water. I remember Viktor Lantos said they used RO-only in ADA tanks for water change.

I am sure this is not a condition for planted tanks in general, but I wonder why this is so important in Amano's method... (it looks like KH/GH doesn't affect nutrient uptake that much, at least if we rely on enough nutrients. I've read something about RO water and better Redox but the source was not very reliable IMO)

Jordi

 

[Dantrasy]

I have an Aqua Sky 361. When I first got it I was terrified of its sun-like power, so I had it on for only 4hrs. Bad idea. The plants suffered and glosso grew vertically. hc melted. Gradually I increased the photo time to about 7hrs and things got better. I don't think I dose EI. I just use whatever liquid fertz I can get my hands on - Seachem, Easy Life, ADA, Borneo Wild, Dino, etc. I don't really measure exact amounts, just pour a little in the cap (say 0.5ml) and drop it in. My tanks are not algae free, but it's tolerable.

361 PAR readings are here: http://prirodni-akvarium.cz/index.php?id=mereni

 

[Marcel G]

Let me put my two cents in it: First of all, I don't share the common believe here that nutrients don't affect algae mass. I discussed this topic with quite a few professors on different universities (e.g. Roger Bachmann). No one of them believes that nutrients play no role in algae blooms. On the contrary they are convinced that even in lakes where there is high plant biomass, the nutrients are important for algae to develop and prevail. Also more nutrients mean more algae biomass. So if we reduce the volume of nutrients we will have smaller algae biomass (that's a fact!). So although one algae cell needs 1000x less nutrients than multicellular plant, 100g of algae biomass will consume roughly the same amount of nutrients as 100g of plant biomass. So to say that 100g algae will use up 1000x less nutrients than 100g plants is just not true (it's false assumption)! ... although many people argue for it.

Also I would say that O2 by itself may not cause redox to rise. I would not focus just on one factor. It could be that although your plant pearl like crazy, your redox is very low, IF you have big mass of organics in your tank. Aerobic microbes can use up a lot of O2 when doing their job of reducing organics to minerals. So not only you need lot of O2, but also you need good filtration to keep your organics on some reasonable level. The microbes are not almighty. So I think you can have high redox if you have: 1) efficient filtration (and good water change regime), 2) big plant biomass (with big root system in the substrate), 3) strong enough lights → your plants need to grow well (otherwise they will begin die and rot, and leach organics in high levels into water), 4) enough nutrients to supply your plants with all they need (no need to use EI, but you can EI if you want).

When you'll have high redox and your microbes will do it's job well, then you can dose virtually whatever amount of nutrients without any fear of getting algae. The algae won't like this kind of environment. I tried it myself, and my friend practices it also. We both use 100-150 µmol PAR at the substrate, and we have NO visible ALGAE (algae will always be there, but they are no problem).

You can look at my tank on YouTube. There are some algae on the glass, but I would say that this is not problem (I did not clean the glass for 3 weeks).

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

So if we reduce the volume of nutrients we will have smaller algae biomass (that's a fact!).......... So not only you need lot of O2, but also you need good filtration to keep your organics on some reasonable level. The microbes are not almighty. So I think you can have high redox if you have: 1) efficient filtration (and good water change regime), 2) big plant biomass (with big root system in the substrate), 3) strong lights → your plants need to grow well (otherwise they will begin die and rot, and leach organics in high levels into water), 4) enough nutrients

I think that probably is a fairly good summary of my personal "belief" as well.

Because of the difficulties in measuring REDOX/ORP and/or dissolved oxygen, I developed the concept of "reduction of BOD" and the "Duckweed Index", as simple techniques to produce stable, resilient, low nutrient systems, which maintain high quality water using slow plant growth.

Have a look at these older posts: <"Alfagrog for reducing nitrate">, <"Algae Outbreak"> & <"Duckweed Index"> & <"Wood for Tanks"> (at PC).

cheers Darrel

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to jump in on this thread, very interesting read by the way, I have a question. It is mentioned here that O2 has just an important part to play as Co2 in combating algae. If that is the case why aren't we injecting O2 in the same way that we inject Co2? Or are we? Is that possible? Can I buy an oxygen cylinder, connect it up to a regulator, put a diffuser inline or in the tank and away we go with O2 and Co2 at the same time.

Since I installed an internal UV filter which supposedly pumps 500 litres an hour round the tank, and turned on the oxygenating feature I have noticed a difference in the water, it appears to be cleaner, sort of crisper look to it, less crap floating round and the fish all seem to be breathing easier. I am sure this is the effect of the O2 and not the UV though. Oh and the KH has gone up from zero to KH 4 which surprised me.

You are also discussing flow and filtration, I have two filters, one supposedly pushing 650 litres an hour and the other 450 litres an hour, plus the internal of 500 litres an hour, so thats a combined flow of 1,600 litres per hour going round the tank. Just how much flow do we need, there is probably only about 350 litres of water in the tank. I can see how much flow I have and where it is going from watching the oxygen bubbles getting pushed around the tank.

From reading everything about combating algae I am beginning to get obsessed with flow rates. People use internal Powerheads to increase circulation / flow around the tank. I have got a Koralia Powerhead arriving tomorrow which according to the spec will push another 900 litres per hour round the tank. I have no idea which is the best position to install it because if the numbers add up I should have enough flow around the tank already.

Should the Koralia powerhead be placed low down in a corner, high up at the back, somewhere wher it crosses the path of the Co2 or O2?

Slightly confused, any advice appreciated.

Cheers,

Steve.

 

[OllieNZ]

O2 is much more difficult to dissolve in water than co2 (tom barr has used it in the past) also compressed or liquid O2 is incredibly dangerous and requires specialist training before use.

 

[flygja]

I've also been wondering about adding O2. But no way am I having a potential fire hazard in the form on an O2 tank! I was just thinking bog standard air pump connected to a cheap CO2 reactor. Diffuser won't work because the air pump won't have enough pressure. What do you guys think?

 

[REDSTEVEO]

Yeah you are probably right about the fire hazard with pressurised O2. Still at least if there was a fire you could use your DIY FE filled with Co2 to put it out

I am not even sure an air pump would have the oomph to push O2 through an acryllic diffuser, especially when they get a bit clogged, my old glass diffuser blew the Co2 pipe off the regulator when it got blocked, which is not a sound you want to hear at 11 o clock at night.

So where am I supposed to install this Koralia Powerhead then?

Steve

 

[Mr. Teapot]

air pump connected to a cheap CO2 reactor

Sounds like an oxygen reactor the salty side use. I think Martin in China was using something similar during the night.

Agree with everyone else about avoiding anything to do with pressurised oxygen. Recipe for a tragedy.