Round indoor pond project queries.

[sciencefiction]

How can you tell they are gravid and not fat?

The gravid loach is wide sideways when viewed from above, similar to corydoras females when they get full of eggs. For all the years I've had her, she's only been like that since around perhaps September 2017 last year. All the rest of the loaches are narrow like "lines" when viewed form above. The bottom of their belly is also flat like a line and not rounded when sitting flat on the sand, unlike the gravid female...I haven't changed the diet almost since I bought the first clown loaches....I estimate the gravid loach to be around 10 years of age the minimum. She's 5 years in my tanks. I bought her at around 5-6 inch size so she was definitely 5-6 years old when I bought her, plus 5 in my tank, possibly 10-11 years old now, and the only one that got visibly gravid so far...Perhaps I should change the diet, ha, ha..

I thought it might be a hierarchal thing with the dominant getting most of the food but began feeding at different ends, when the biggest ones were resting from sparring and it seemed to make no difference.

I have no problem feeding smaller loaches extra food either and I actually do make sure they get some more later in the day when the big ones are sleeping in the caves. I don't think the size difference is due to food availability at all. Its got to be hormones of some sort, or genetics, or sex differences, etc..I am not sure what, but my smaller loaches eat as much as any other loach....

My biggest topped out at 11" TL one it died (meant I could accurately measure it) and the smallest is around 6" still.

Similar story here. Sizes vary a lot despite some being the same age. From my first group of 5, which I had for about 6 years, there's one way bigger than all the rest, then a couple around same size, then another couple of same size but smaller than the previous two, then the smallest one which, as you say, I suspect will be surpassed by some of my younger loaches soon enough...

They also hang around the tank by sizes.

My largest two loaches, which are very visibly larger than the rest, are almost always out together. They hang around the tank together, sitting next to each other, following each other etc...

Then I also have a bunch of 4 young loaches, oldest just over a year old. Those 4 are together all the time. When I had just one baby loach in the tank, he was out with the denison barbs and SAEs instead and in fact, for some time he used to run the opposite direction of the biggest/older loaches when they came out..He used to freak out thinking he was gonna be someones dinner...

 

[Guest]

I hope Jeremy Wade doesn't stumble across this post...your indoor pond might become the subject of a River Monsters special 😉

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
We need a Belgian (or near to Belgium Dutch member?) to go and check (or find them via the WWW?), but I'm pretty sure there are some really huge Clown Loaches in Antwerp Zoo. I went there about eight years ago when we swapped our house with some people in Emmen and drove there from Calais, stopping in Antwerp over night.

cheers Darrel

 

[sciencefiction]

 

[zozo]

Hi all,
We need a Belgian (or near to Belgium Dutch member?) to go and check (or find them via the WWW?), but I'm pretty sure there are some really huge Clown Loaches in Antwerp Zoo. I went there about eight years ago when we swapped our house with some people in Emmen and drove there from Calais, stopping in Antwerp over night.

cheers Darrel

I did an extensive search in Dutch and a bit in French, but can't realy find anything conclusive, other than people indeed refering to this zoo if you like to see full grown captured Clown loaches. What i could find is this, some kind of private picture album with a few references to Antwerp Zoo. I assume it's from them, but can't say for sure, but some are large botias for sure..
https://hiveminer.com/Tags/botia,macracanthus

Not sure if it realy was Antwerp Zoo, because there once was Aquatopia across the street Belgiums greatest aquarium attratcion and financialy not affiliated with the Zoo across the street.. Could be tourist mistaken it from beeing one and the same. Aquatopia closed down starting from Januari 2017.
https://www.zoochat.com/community/threads/review-of-aquatopia.366494/

So also not sure if the botias stil ar to be vissited today. Personaly never been there... Don;t ask i don;t visit Zoo's.. Not because of fish, but seen enough apathetic animals behind bars in my younger days, always made me feel like crying and wondering why... And when i was young, Antwerp zoo in particular had a rather very bad name, so never went. This might have changed i don't know, i didn;t change i guess,

 

[sciencefiction]

That's someone's tank below with some large loaches.

All of them and above loaches are big but I reckon still around the 12 inch mark.

 

[sciencefiction]

32 years old clown loach

 

[sciencefiction]

And this one, lol.

 

[mort]

Judging by the mascara barbs this one is around the foot mark. Its interesting how high it is in the body, mine still have the normal clown loach body shape. Not sure I really like the deep body.



there was a tank here in the uk that had 30+ and some real monsters. Can't remember where I saw it but it was up north.

 

[alto]

Another Cory video - he brought in two wild caught clown loaches estimated as 10-12in

Note the difference in body shape
Also note, he considers them "skinny"

 

[sciencefiction]

Clown loaches aside, I think I've done something to my hillstream tank as I noticed today some of them looking rather pale. When I think of it, I can't remember if I put dechlorinator during the water change last Saturday....There doesn't seem to be any dead ones

udging by the mascara barbs this one is around the foot mark.

That's Marge. When she died the owner Emma Turner said she was around 11.5 inches.

Note the difference in body shape

Wild caught loaches all come in that body shape. They're a bit emaciated though but point is, in captivity we tend to overfeed them in order to push the growth, and they baloon up. Home raised discus are too larger than their wild cousins.

In captivity the clown loach females tend to grow a "taller" body shape. The males seem to stay slim and narrow, similar to the wild caught loaches but obviously fatter anyhow.

My two large females are chasing Marge's size, lol.....I hope not but what can I do 🙂 Marge doesn't look gravid on that picture so she's just an obese loach I think.

One of my small loaches, just over a year and a few months old, is already developing the tall body shape, definitely a female. Point is, even from that small size in captivity they tend to develop the wide girth shape, specifically if they're females. And this small loach in particular was raised in a 240G tank, so not that cramped for space. I do feed them every single day though, and even more than once....Guilty as charged..

But I don't go by body shape but overall colours and condition of their "skin". A lot of clown loaches, even those in public zoos, look rather sickly, some even visibly emaciated with the pinched appearance around the head...Their sink colour is also patchy, a condition they develop when not that healthy. A lot of wild caught loaches are riddled with worms and parasites as welll......Once you kick that factor out, they start putting on weight.....The only time I had a bony loach, was last year's purchase, who came in sick, and I battled to fix him for the first 3-4 months. I eventually did.....with de-worming meds...

The bottom loach below. I reckon she'll grow big and wide...She's the oldest of my youngest at around 1 year 4 months. The top left one is just a year old. They're quite active all day long, fairly friendly in comparison to some others, and hence getting food all the time too.

 

[sciencefiction]

Loaches aside, I think I've done something to my hillstream loach tank. Last night I noticed a few of them being rather pale. They're normally a dark colour. I hadn't paid attention to them all week. When I thought about it, I could not remember if I dechlorinated the tank or not last weekend. In fact, I probably forgot.... I normally do a rather large 70-80" water change.....They're still alive though, so they've gone through the worse of it...The tank being rather old probably helped...

 

[zozo]

Funny the least 🙂 when the word Goldfish is mentioned in terms of aquarium under 300 litre, there always will be people replying without hesitation "Not suitable, Too Big.." Never did read this regarding this Clown Botia one of the most popular aquarium fishes around. And there actualy aint so much difference.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Not sure if it realy was Antwerp Zoo, because there once was Aquatopia across the street

I remember seeing "Aquatopia" on the corner of the square opposite the zoo, but we didn't go in, sounds like a shame it has closed.

It was definitely the zoo where I saw them, and I think the big Clown Loaches were really chunky and dark coloured.

cheers Darrel

 

[zozo]

Hi all, I remember seeing "Aquatopia" on the corner of the square opposite the zoo, but we didn't go in, sounds like a shame it has closed.

It was definitely the zoo where I saw them, and I think the big Clown Loaches were really chunky and dark coloured.

cheers Darrel

Aquatopia went bankrupt, it seems to ba a chocolatery now.. And the Zoo took a lot of their fish of what i read mainly the marine spieces. If i ever get to Antwerp again, sometimes i pass through, than i'll remember and definitively have a look.. The idea intrigues me, would love to see those clowns.. 🙂

As said haven't visited a Zoo since the 1970's back then most Zoo's were still a shame and more a freak show than respectfull animal keeping for crying out loud. Antwerp had a realy bad name for that... Artis - Amsterdam i visited was the first and it felt realy bad seeing all the animals in such small cages going mad. The last i visited was 1978 the one in Emmen that you also visited that was the first Zoo in my country and i believe maybe in the world without using bars and cages. They had everything displayed in large pits or water surrounded isles. Only the large predators where behind glass. That was a releaf to experience look far more natural. When i was much younger i remember my parents took me to a Dolphinarium and i wasn't impressed seeing all going on.. I kinda didn't understand and felt sorry for the poor noble animals doing silly tricks for a cheering croud.

I guess it's because i ow my life to our dog, he resqued me from drowning when i was about 5 years old. All my life raised with the knoweldge that i'm still around because of this dog gave me a different perspective how to look at and think about animals. They definitively still don't get the credit they deserve. 🙁

🙂

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Antwerp had a realy bad name for that.

From what I remember, as zoos go, it was quite good, with a lot of modern enclosures. There were some of old wrought iron aviaries that aren't in use, but were retained as listed structures.

We stayed very close to the wildlife park in Emmen, but we didn't visit, it was the end of October so it may have been shut.

cheers Darrel

 

[zozo]

Hi all, From what I remember, as zoos go, it was quite good, with a lot of modern enclosures. There were some of old wrought iron aviaries that aren't in use, but were retained as listed structures.

We stayed very close to the wildlife park in Emmen, but we didn't visit, it was the end of October so it may have been shut.

cheers Darrel

I guess you didn't realy miss a lot what isn't to be seen on discovery.. 🙂 Funny you mention aviaries, that was the most impressing in Emmen, it was huge and a walk through, i remember feeling a breeze in my neck, heard a slight wistling air movement and a bold eagle flying over my head, landing again a a branch in front of me. That was breathtaking impressive.. 🙂

Not so long ago i saw a BBC documentary about the qeustion Should we close down Zoo's.. It's a very old fashion disrespectfull way of making money which has little to do with educating people respectfully. For example, all Elephants in captivity , bottom line all zoo's in the world, have or are doomed to develop foot and leg disseases and deformities etc. giving the animal great discomfort.. Because they are migratory animals and are not made to stand a lifetime in a to small invironment barely able to walk. But zoo directors still try desperately to make huge profits with silly excuses in calling themselfs educative and the modern Arc of Noah, preserving extincion. trying to get peopel closer to nature.. The contrary is true, it bring people further away from it and makes them lazy, because they don't have the need to think or visit nature to see something odd. Nothing natural about it..

If you think about it, it is an absolutely absurdity.. Mankind firstly hunts all to the brink of extincion and than a 100.000 a year urning manager is crying crocodile tears and tries to play with your heart and raise huge fundings to save in captivity what is already beyond saving.

Yes we should close zoo's, the sooner the better. 🙂

That's what i love about BBC they always have spot on docu's questioning mankinds ignorance and trying to wake up the world.
Another one rather confronting and definitively a must see.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/08_august/19/dogs.shtml

And not BBC but please watch.. And shiver...
http://www.blackfishmovie.com/

Even if morality only reaches 1 in a 100 watchers it is worth a million.

 

[Edvet]

A lot of zoo's are on the right track though, with exhibits getting more and more animal friendly. I' ve worked at Burgers Zoo and they are doing their best to improve animal welfare. It's the public that demands some animals to be on "display" and zoos need a lot of visitors to stay afloat. Food and staff cost 2 arms and a leg.

 

[zozo]

It's the public that demands some animals

It the public that's educated to demand.. 😉

 

[sciencefiction]

Funny the least 🙂 when the word Goldfish is mentioned in terms of aquarium under 300 litre, there always will be people replying without hesitation "Not suitable, Too Big.." Never did read this regarding this Clown Botia one of the most popular aquarium fishes around. And there actualy aint so much difference.

I've read people being advised about their potential size. Truth is, majority of clown loaches in the trade die within the first year. They are as popular as goldfish. They are colourful and playful, the newbie kid's purchase.

They're supposedly sensitive when small although I haven't experienced that. There are are a lot of stories about clowns with itch, emaciation, parasites, etc...plus people cramp them in small tanks to start with, using them as snail eaters, as in 10 and 20G tanks...There's no problem with that for a few months to a year....and in fact, if one has enough snails, probably beneficial to their growth, but after that...the goldfish syndrome....

So yes, the story is very similar to goldfish. They live rather long, some grow big, some don't cross the 6 inch marker. They're fairly active/hyper fish as well so they need the space even when young and small. Even very small fish like the harlequin rasboras seem to think they're in 7th heaven if given the space...

One of the clown loach keepers I came accross online has 5 or 6 loaches( can't quite remember), but they're 24-25 years old. He kept them all their life in the same 6f tank. Although small enough, it is obviously sufficient long term as minimum space for a small group...

I guess it's because i ow my life to our dog, he resqued me from drowning when i was about 5 years old.

Wow, this is a great story. Care to share more details?
I had a cat when I was a kid, throughout my teenage years. He used to bring me breakfast in bed, no kidding. As he was an inside cat only, all he could catch were flies. Every morning he'd sit next to my pillow with a few dead flies right next to my face, and he'd "paw" me to wake me up 🙂 I totally loved that cat, had found him in a skip when he was still blind, probably a 2-3 weeks old kittie. When I went to college, my mother secretly kicked him out to the countryside. We have a house there, but no-one lives in it permanently. I never saw him again. I hadn't gone home for about 6 months and when I came back, the cat was gone. We could not find him again...I suppose he died as he wouldn't have been able to live alone after so many years being locked up....My mother still regrets she did it, and hurts her even more than it does me...I sort of got over it now, after 23 years....