Rotala Rotundifolia - Growth Issues

[Konrad Michalski]

Ok , i understand , i have 2 x 24 W lighting on my 64 liter tank .

Can you please tell me what are you dosing now ? macros and micros and how much in ppm if possible .

I want to try this dosage on my tank since i have rotala and monte carlo aswell .

Thank you .

BTW how is your hygrophilla pinnatifida doing ? do you have pinholes in old leaves ?

It may be hard to say in ppm as I dose branded ferts and they don't say nothing about ppm. They only tell you how many clicks for each 100l. But anyway I use Ferka and dose Nitrate, Mikro and something which contains micro and makro. As ferka is low on phosphates I additionally dose some kh2po4 of salts and Iron of Seachem.
Hygrophilla I only found that small damaged piece which you have seen on photo and got it stuck to the rocks. It recovered within a couple of weeks and looks fine, no pinholes or anything like that. May post a photo of leaves when back from work.

 

[Konrad Michalski]

Also here I have a photo of a tank, which I was talking about earlier on. If not advice from its owner to lower Potassium I would still be in the position where I was just about a month ago - twisted plants / stunted growths. Just because she was having the same issues she was trying absolutely everything to sort it out. The only thing, which was helpful was lowering Potassium level. As she confirmed, she's been dosing only 6ppm of Potassium and as soon as she raises it the problem comes back. She started the thread on one of the Polish forums and loads of people reported back that lowering Potassium resolved their problem with stunted growths / twisted tops. As you can see we don't talk here about easy plants like Rotala Rotundifolia.

 

[AndreiD]

Maybe she was dosing too much KH2PO4 and that was wiping the iron . It's not good to dose KH2PO4 and Iron/traces in the same day .

If you want to try , just stop dosing Iron or any kind of micros / traces for 2-3 weeks and you will see that rotala will have stunted new growth again , probably the red plants will have the new leaves not so red anymore .

But only if you want to do experiments 🙂

Otherwise the plants in this tank look great .

 

[Konrad Michalski]

Maybe she was dosing too much KH2PO4 and that was wiping the iron . It's not good to dose KH2PO4 and Iron/traces in the same day .

If you want to try , just stop dosing Iron or any kind of micros / traces for 2-3 weeks and you will see that rotala will have stunted new growth again , probably the red plants will have the new leaves not so red anymore .

But only if you want to do experiments 🙂

Otherwise the plants in this tank look great .

As she reported back she never had to adjust anything like phosphates, iron or mikro. The only thing which was adjusted / lowered down was potassium. In my case the situation was exactly the same. All I had to do was to put the bottle called Balance K on the side and after a few weeks I forgot about stunted growths and weird look of my plants. Another few people shared exactly the same experience so I won't be trying to dabate what else could change and why. My knowledge is limited and I normally rely on someone experience. If that works for me I share it so it could help people who are struggling with the same problems.
Andrei have you got any photos of your rotalas before and after adjusting your fertilizing with mikro like you mentioned before? That would be interesting to see how bad they were and how they have changed when you swapped your mikro.

 

[AndreiD]

Hi , unfortunately i don't have pictures with rotala before switching micros , but for sure it had stunted tips on new growth , but now it looks like in your post number #53

 

[sciencefiction]

Perhaps the extra potassium is pushing the plant growth to the point where it gets limited on iron. All the macros can do that. It works just like extra light for some plants.

Iron deficiency on ludwiga from my own tank below...The picture shows damage to old and new growth but that's because I never trimmed the plant so no growth made it to potential....Who said iron deficiency doesn't cause twisted growth in certain plants....and also notice the bleaching of the tips....

Now if I dig out the bacopa pictures I've taken it looks different....a lot more damage and the new growth is almost white. Its way more sensitive to iron, it nearly melts. So does my hydrophila when iron deficient, it falls apart but the ludwiga seems to have sturdier leaves which just twist like helll.....Its really hard managing iron in tanks with hard water...But in a high tech tank folks take more care not to get to that point I am showing below....

 

[Konrad Michalski]

Perhaps the extra potassium is pushing the plant growth to the point where it gets limited on iron. All the macros can do that. It works just like extra light for some plants.

Iron deficiency on ludwiga from my own tank below...The picture shows damage to old and new growth but that's because I never trimmed the plant so no growth made it to potential....Who said iron deficiency doesn't cause twisted growth in certain plants....and also notice the bleaching of the tips....

Now if I dig out the bacopa pictures I've taken it looks different....a lot more damage and the new growth is almost white. Its way more sensitive to iron, it nearly melts. So does my hydrophila when iron deficient, it falls apart but the ludwiga seems to have sturdier leaves which just twist like helll.....Its really hard managing iron in tanks with hard water...But in a high tech tank folks take more care not to get to that point I am showing below....

View attachment 95499

Situation in my tank was slightly different. Many people advised me to dose more Iron and I did so. On top of full dose of EI I was dosing Iron from EasyLife and nothing has improved - as mentioned above I only got green dust all over my glass. Bare in mind I only have some carpet plants in my tank so full EI dose should be more than enough and it possibly was - too much.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Many people advised me to dose more Iron and I did so. On top of full dose of EI I was dosing Iron from EasyLife and nothing has improved - as mentioned above I only got green dust all over my glass.

It is definitely an iron (Fe) effect, the green dust has expanded because Fe has become available. Your plants would have shown a response in time, but only in the new plant growth because iron is non-mobile in the plant.

The only thing which was adjusted / lowered down was potassium.

The growth defects at the higher potassium levels could be caused by the interaction of potassium (K) with magnesium (Mg) or calcium (Ca), but they wouldn't give you your symptoms. I'm 99% sure this is iron (Fe) deficiency.

You can get <"potassium (K) and iron (Fe) interactions"> I don't have any experience of these, but I assume this is an example.

cheers Darrel

 

[sciencefiction]

Situation in my tank was slightly different. Many people advised me to dose more Iron and I did so.

You've got medium hard water.... The situation is not that different...

On top of full dose of EI I was dosing Iron from EasyLife and nothing has improved

The iron in a "full EI dose" of EDTA chelated micros is not enough to counteract iron deficiency in hard water tanks for 5 easy plants, not to mind tank full of plants driven by CO2 and high light... What was your ppm target of iron when you increased your iron? Unless you dose DTPA iron, you're pretty much doing nothing.. Try dosing EDTA iron in a glass of the water you use for water changes...It hardly even dissolves in hard water.. The day after you'll see it all "rusted" up at the bottom...I am not sure on the chemical reaction it does but it seems it just doesn't even dissolve....So you need excessive doses to counteract...

When you opened this thread you already advised you had tried higher iron doses. May I ask how long did you wait for the plants to respond? Did you trim damaged growth before you started dosing more iron? I am assuming you also dosed iron often enough not to let the plants get deficient for any moment of time....because it just about takes 3-4 days with no dosing in my hard water tank for them to start suffering again..

The only way I don't get constant iron issues is clay in the planting substrate..Even clay pebbles as substrate material specifically for my emersed plants helps. They never get the same iron issue this way. But when I planted a paprika, I didn't put clay pebbles but just soil in order for the plant to anchor better in the substrate and keep it as least watery as possible...Well in a few weeks it too was growing pale new leaves...I've got a picture somewhere though the plant is out of the tank since growing in dry soil.

 

[Konrad Michalski]

My tank is 180ltrs, taking the thickness of the glass away, minus 30+ kg of rocks, minus about 20ltrs of soil leaves me with about 130ltrs of water Possibly even less as tank ain't full . My dose of Ei was always calculated for 150ltr. And sometimes on top of that I was dosing even 4ml of easy life - never got rid of stunted growths. The question is, how much Iron would I have dose then to get rid of them?


Surely my already increased dose of Ei should be enough.

 

[sciencefiction]

My tank is 180ltrs, taking the thickness of the glass away, minus 30+ kg of rocks, minus about 20ltrs of soil leaves me with about 130ltrs of water Possibly even less as tank ain't full . My dose of Ei was always calculated for 150ltr. And sometimes on top of that I was dosing even 4ml of easy life - never got rid of stunted growths. The question is, how much Iron would I have dose then to get rid of them?

I would not calculate water volume like that. The soil is water logged....I assume you have external filter too to add to the water volume, etc..
Regardless, for 150l, your Easy Life iron dose raises the iron by about 0.26ppm iron which is nothing at all in hard water. I dosed 3 times that on a low tech tank with a few plants only...e.g.. hydrophila pictures early in the thread...when my green spot algae also came to life 🙂

 

[sciencefiction]

The EI dose gives you 0.50ppm of iron (EDTA) and you did extra 0.26ppm for a total of 0.76 ppm in a high tech tank blasted with light...
I dosed 0.2ppm of iron every 2nd day to a total of 0.8ppm iron in a low tech low light tank with barely any plants...Mind you, I had tried dosing iron before without any results...but like you, sparingly and less than the EI dose because I considered the fact it was a low tech tank...It was only when I signifficantly upped the dose when it worked. On day 6 my hydrophila started growing fast and healthy....I did not dose anything else or changed anything else during my first "test" period to be sure....otherwise one keeps going in circles for years...

 

[Konrad Michalski]

You've got medium hard water.... The situation is not that different...



The iron in a "full EI dose" of EDTA chelated micros is not enough to counteract iron deficiency in hard water tanks for 5 easy plants, not to mind tank full of plants driven by CO2 and high light... What was your ppm target of iron when you increased your iron? Unless you dose DTPA iron, you're pretty much doing nothing.. Try dosing EDTA iron in a glass of the water you use for water changes...It hardly even dissolves in hard water.. The day after you'll see it all "rusted" up at the bottom...I am not sure on the chemical reaction it does but it seems it just doesn't even dissolve....So you need excessive doses to counteract...

When you opened this thread you already advised you had tried higher iron doses. May I ask how long did you wait for the plants to respond? Did you trim damaged growth before you started dosing more iron? I am assuming you also dosed iron often enough not to let the plants get deficient for any moment of time....because it just about takes 3-4 days with no dosing in my hard water tank for them to start suffering again..

The only way I don't get constant iron issues is clay in the planting substrate..Even clay pebbles as substrate material specifically for my emersed plants helps. They never get the same iron issue this way. But when I planted a paprika, I didn't put clay pebbles but just soil in order for the plant to anchor better in the substrate and keep it as least watery as possible...Well in a few weeks it too was growing pale new leaves...I've got a picture somewhere though the plant is out of the tank since growing in dry soil.

My target was 0.5-0.7ppm. I didn't want to exceed it as apparently from 1ppm Iron becomes dangerous for fish and plants. As you have calculated I wasn't far of. Normally when I made changes I tried to keep them for the next 2-3 weeks. When I didn't see any improvement I was going back to where I was before. Now I can't even describe how many different adjustments I made without success. In my previous tank I tried 1000's of things and never got rid of stunted growths which you can see on the picture of my previous tank

How much Iron (EasyLife) do you reckon I should be dosing ?

 

[sciencefiction]

If I were you, I'd try a higher doses specifically of the profito fe. I've been looking at iron deficient plants for years here(because I wanted to finish my dry pack of EDTA iron)...If you want to follow the same fate than its your choice...By the way...you may want to consider exchanging all your EDTA micros for an alternative fert because all traces bar one or two are affected by hard water....So your full EI dose is probably way below than what you should dose to counteract deficiencies....The long struggle with stunted growth is totally no surprise to me...

 

[Konrad Michalski]

If I were you, I'd try a higher doses specifically of the profito fe. I've been looking at iron deficient plants for years here(because I wanted to finish my dry pack of EDTA iron)...If you want to follow the same fate than its your choice...By the way...you may want to consider exchanging all your EDTA micros for an alternative fert because all traces bar one or two are affected by hard water....So your full EI dose is probably way below than what you should dose to counteract deficiencies....The long struggle with stunted growth is totally no surprise to me...

Thanks for reply. I'll keep eye on my plants and see how it gows. So far it is much better but I'm not quite happy with their look.

 

[sciencefiction]

Just don't be afraid to dose iron Konrad. I've been overdosing whenever I dose and even my shrimp don't notice. I know iron can be toxic in higher doses but in hard water it isn't... I scoop the iron powder with my fingers and in a small tank that's quite the overdose on paper.....But the hard water just neutralises most of it....And in that type of water one will always have issues with micros but with time and dedication one can be on top of it. If lowering the potassium levels helps, I'd do that too because it seems it limits plant growth rate to me, thus micro deficiencies are not so severe either...Or it interferes with them perhaps...whatever the cause...one must do what works...but don't ignore micro deficiency as a possible cause....

 

[sciencefiction]

I was trying to find some old pictures to post on another thread and I got some when I remember having "mild" iron deficiency on my bacopa in my old tank. The reason for it was that the front of the tank had no soil/dirt/clay and all plants near the glass for that reason were iron deficient 🙂 For plants its that simple 🙂 See the paler growth.... although not majorly affected yet...This is not a light trick, the colour is true to how you'd see it in person and the front bacopa planted in bare small gravel/sand was getting iron deficient...

 

[alan'67]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if the EDTA type of chelated micros can be ineffective in hard water with a high alkalinity, could you use an 'all in one' fertilizer tab pressed into the substrate to compensate instead?.

Plants would be forced to access these nutrients by their roots but would this method work without affecting NPK levels to much or the hard water making the micros unavailable?.

Also, Sciencefiction mentioned in his post above that all traces bar one or two are affected by hard water. I knew Iron could be a problem but I wasn't aware there were others.

Does anyone know which other micro's effected by hard water are?.

 

[sciencefiction]

Does anyone know which other micro's effected by hard water are?.

99% as far as I am aware. Can't remember which one wasn't exactly but majority are...Iron is the most noticeable deficiency in hard water because from all the micros its required in higher amounts...hence its the first sign of trouble from all micros..

Root fertilizers will probably be a better option for delivery of micros in hard water in my opinion. Natural red clay mixed in the substrate prevents iron deficiency for my plants in my hard water so I think even inserting hand made clay balls into the substrate will help as a replenishment. And my emersed plants when planted in hydroton clay pebbles also seem to be doing ok...

 

[alan'67]

Thanks for the info sciencefiction.

The one major point that has bugged me from day one since I started a planted tank more than a year ago, is would it be helpful to grow plants successfully, that you had a tap water with a low to moderate GH & KH?.

As a newbie to the hobby, would you struggle to grow plants in hard tap water with a high alkalinity?.

Even allowing for correct levels of co2, lights and flow.

From personal experience I would say the answer is yes.