Rotala Macrandra and wallichi in hardwater

[meto1986]

Hi all,
After months of reading posts on this forum, I've decided to join and post the issue I am having in my tank.
I always find rotalas hard to grow and if they grow the have a long distance between internods and don't like as beutilfull as many photos I see online.
Recently I tried growing Wallichi again and it seems to fail so far, the low leaves look dark green almost black and they are dying off.
Is that water quality issue? Hardness? Co2 or simply my amano shrimps snaking on it?!

My tank is 125 roma with 307 filter, inline co2 and uv.
Parameters:
N 40
PO4 1.5
Ca 25
Mg 60
K don't know
DGH 15.5
DKH 11.5
Co2 green lime on the other side of filter out, a bit darker on filter outlet side.
I dose tropica with no N and P fert equivelent (made from salts) and some PO4

Here are some photos, any help appreciated as I am not sure where to go next, is it giving up and have very easy plants, or getting RO water to reduce hardness!

Thanks,

 

[keef321]

Hi,
From my experience, with my hard water, this certainly can cause problems with Rotala. My water parameters were similar to yours, my GH was aroun 13, KH 10+, degassed PH 8.2.Once I had my iron chelate sorted in my tank, I could grow plants in my hard water, but Rotala would stunt or stuggle like yours. Here in the photo below of my hard water tank, at the back right, you can see, I think rotala orange juice struggling to grow. I did try and grow more advanced Rotalas such as Wallachi and got similar results to yourself.


Now some people can grow amazing Rotala in hardwater (like aquarium gardens), but I think everyones water is different. From memory Dennis wong states Rotala can stunt due to high fertifilisation, that is often needed with very hard water. I had to fertilise full EI + manganese + 3 different iron chelates to get my plants growing correctly.

I was always drawn to Rotala's for my aquascapes, and after 3 years trying grow Rotala in hard water, I finally took the plunge and now do 70% RODI, 30% Tap Water mix and can finally grow Rotala in good form 🙂

 

[meto1986]

Thanks for your input, I always had a feeling that my hardwater is the problem, but when I see many people narrow everything down to co2 I feel confused. Especially where there is no accurate way to measure co2 diirectly afaik.
I will get an ro filter and see how that goes!

If you don't mind me asking, what are the two green bushes in the middle of your hardwater tank? They doing really well! I am looking to add more green mass.
I tried elodea densa and it looked leggy with long distance between nods.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I always find rotalas hard to grow and if they grow the have a long distance between internods and don't like as beutilfull as many photos I see online.
Recently I tried growing Wallichi again and it seems to fail so far, the low leaves look dark green almost black and they are dying off.

Once I had my iron chelate sorted in my tank, I could grow plants in my hard water, but Rotala would stunt or stuggle like yours

Assuming the new leaves really are as pale as they look in the photo? It is likely to be a problem with iron (Fe) availability, something most often seen in hard water and <"common with Rotala spp">.

but when I see many people narrow everything down to co2 I feel confused.

Have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">. removing CO2 deficiency from the equation was one reason for <"using a floating plant"> in the Duckweed Index.

Especially where there is no accurate way to measure co2 diirectly afaik.

<"Problematic">, which is why people often use a drop checker - <"CO2 Measurement Using A Drop Checker">.

I will get an ro filter and see how that goes!

Would <"rainwater be an option for you">? I've used it since the 1970s without any issue.

cheers Darrel

 

[nijat11]

Rotala walichni is a pain in the ass. It does not grow in hard water. I know there will be comments that chealted Iron, more flow with co2 will help, but for me it did not work.

 

[ElleDee]

If you don't mind me asking, what are the two green bushes in the middle of your hardwater tank? They doing really well! I am looking to add more green mass.
I tried elodea densa and it looked leggy with long distance between nods.

On the right is pearl weed. Tropica has it categorized as advanced, but I can't imagine why - it has grown in every tank I've put it, at times getting quite weedy. I've neglected it down to naked stems and brought it back in two separate occasions, all without CO2.

The right might be some kind of myriophyllum? Not sure. Star grass (Heteranthera zosterifolia) is a very easy bushy green plant, though it grows too fast for some.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Rotala walichni is a pain in the ass. It does not grow in hard water. I know there will be comments that chealted Iron, more flow with co2 will help, but for me it did not work.

I really don't see any point in <"struggling to grow plants"> that just aren't happy in the conditions <"that you can offer them">. My suggestion is always find plants (and livestock) <"that like your conditions">, and grow / keep them.

As an example @ElleDee had <"life intrude on her aquarium keeping">, but her tanks proved robust with relatively little intervention.

<"Purely personally"> I think that if you have to continually micro-manage your tank to avoid disaster? I'm going to suggest that this isn't a situation that is tenable in the long run.

cheers Darrel

 

[keef321]

Thanks for your input, I always had a feeling that my hardwater is the problem, but when I see many people narrow everything down to co2 I feel confused. Especially where there is no accurate way to measure co2 diirectly afaik.
I will get an ro filter and see how that goes!

If you don't mind me asking, what are the two green bushes in the middle of your hardwater tank? They doing really well! I am looking to add more green mass.
I tried elodea densa and it looked leggy with long distance between nods.

Well co2 can cause issues, and at first this is what I tried to sort things out. I did have some early issues with Co2 due to instability, but once that was fixed I still had lots of problems with my plants due to my hard water.

The two (largest) bushes are from the left a) myriophyllum Guyana and b) Pearl Weed - not sure on the scientific name, I think it has changed its name recently.

Myriophyllum is a good hardwater plant. Pearl Weed is also great in hard water once established, but beware, it's called a weed for a reason and grows like crazy, so needs weekly or bi-weekly pruning to keep it in check. In my water these plants would only grow well with heavy iron dosing, without it even my pearl weed would die.

I would follow the good advice of @dw1305 : Drop checker very useful (you can see one in my photo, middle top). Duckweed index, very useful to identify if the issue is fertiliser (it's what I used to diagnose my issues).

I also agree that the tips of some of your grass and other plants look a bit pale, and there could be an fe issue. Try the duckweed index to check.

Cheers

Keith

​

 

[meto1986]

Hi all,


Assuming the new leaves really are as pale as they look in the photo? It is likely to be a problem with iron (Fe) availability, something most often seen in hard water and <"common with Rotala spp">.

Have a look at <"What is the “Duckweed Index” all about?">. removing CO2 deficiency from the equation was one reason for <"using a floating plant"> in the Duckweed Index.

<"Problematic">, which is why people often use a drop checker - <"CO2 Measurement Using A Drop Checker">.

Would <"rainwater be an option for you">? I've used it since the 1970s without any issue.

cheers Darrel

Thanks Darrel, I though about Fe when I tried to grow them 1 year ago and I added EDAT FE but ended up getting loads of staghorn alge which disappeared when I stopped dosing fe. My assumption after reading some of the posts you shared is the plants were not able to use the fe. And the alge took advantage of that.
I wish I could use rain water, I stay in flat and there is no way to gather rain water.
I feel using ro water worth it, I might invest with a low end one and see how things go! Might try adding more iron first.

 

[meto1986]

Well co2 can cause issues, and at first this is what I tried to sort things out. I did have some early issues with Co2 due to instability, but once that was fixed I still had lots of problems with my plants due to my hard water.

The two (largest) bushes are from the left a) myriophyllum Guyana and b) Pearl Weed - not sure on the scientific name, I think it has changed its name recently.

Myriophyllum is a good hardwater plant. Pearl Weed is also great in hard water once established, but beware, it's called a weed for a reason and grows like crazy, so needs weekly or bi-weekly pruning to keep it in check. In my water these plants would only grow well with heavy iron dosing, without it even my pearl weed would die.

I would follow the good advice of @dw1305 : Drop checker very useful (you can see one in my photo, middle top). Duckweed index, very useful to identify if the issue is fertiliser (it's what I used to diagnose my issues).

I also agree that the tips of some of your grass and other plants look a bit pale, and there could be an fe issue. Try the duckweed index to check.

Cheers

Keith

​

I have myriophyllum Guyana which seems growing very slowly, just added it two weeks ago, hope it do well as yours.
Will read more about duckweed index and def give that a go.

Cheers,
Meto

 

[nijat11]

Hi all,

I really don't see any point in <"struggling to grow plants"> that just aren't happy in the conditions <"that you can offer them">. My suggestion is always find plants (and livestock) <"that like your conditions">, and grow / keep them.

As an example @ElleDee had <"life intrude on her aquarium keeping">, but her tanks proved robust with relatively little intervention.

<"Purely personally"> I think that if you have to continually micro-manage your tank to avoid disaster? I'm going to suggest that this isn't a situation that is tenable in the long run.

cheers Darrel

Well I`m a bit stubor when it comes to aquatic plants 😀 I remember when I just beginning I had a lot of troubles growing AR mini, and a lot of forum members advised to give up, but after long tries and troubelshoots , I found the solution. It all depends how much time and money you are ready to invest.

 

[G H Nelson]

Hi all,
After months of reading posts on this forum, I've decided to join and post the issue I am having in my tank.
I always find rotalas hard to grow and if they grow the have a long distance between internods and don't like as beutilfull as many photos I see online.
Recently I tried growing Wallichi again and it seems to fail so far, the low leaves look dark green almost black and they are dying off.
Is that water quality issue? Hardness? Co2 or simply my amano shrimps snaking on it?!

Rotala sp does better in lean-dosed fertilized aquariums and high light with a long duration.
RO is the way to go if you want nice-looking Rotala sps. Purchase a TDS Pen. Check the TDS. Ideally, you want about 150/200 TDS.
Cheers
hoggie

 

[keef321]

Rotala sp does better in lean-dosed fertilized aquariums and high light with a long duration.
RO is the way to go if you want nice-looking Rotala sp's, purchase a TDS Pen.....check the TDS, ideally, you want about 150/250 TDS.
Cheers
hoggie

Agree with this statement, I run my TDS at 130 (0.5 scale) as that brings down the PH enough to reduce ferts a bit with my 70 RODI /30 Tap mix. I still need to dose some extra iron, but happy with the results so far

 

[Conort2]

Rotala Wallichii grew for my like a weed in a super low tech tank but it had extremely soft water (there are pictures of it on here somewhere). But I’ve had no luck with any Rotalas, even the supposed easy ones, in hard water.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It all depends how much time and money you are ready to invest.

That is my problem, I'm a <"cheapskate, lazy and shoddy aquarist">, who always takes the route of <"least resistance">.........

Rotala sp does better in lean-dosed fertilized aquariums and high light with a long duration.
RO is the way to go if you want nice-looking Rotala sp's,

I run my TDS at 130 (0.5 scale) as that brings down the PH enough to reduce ferts a bit with my 70 tap /30 RODI mix. I still need to dose some extra iron, but happy with the results so far

Rotala spp. are probably the plants that appear most frequently in the <"iron induced chlorosis"> threads.

Rotala Wallichii grew for my like a weed in a super low tech tank but it had extremely soft water (there are pictures of it on here somewhere). But I’ve had no luck with any Rotalas, even the supposed easy ones, in hard water.

I like @Kezzab 's bog garden <"Rotala rotundifolia">. I'm guessing that all the Rotala spp. would all be happiest emersed and growing in a peat bog.

cheers Darrel

 

[Miniandy]

Rotala sp does better in lean-dosed fertilized aquariums and high light with a long duration.
RO is the way to go if you want nice-looking Rotala sp's, purchase a TDS Pen.....check the TDS, ideally, you want about 150/200 TDS.
Cheers
hoggie

Could not agree more.

Broadly there is a lot of sensible advice in this thread.

I've also recently moved over to an RO unit and got a 220ltr barrel and pump. Just so I can make the water what I want

 

[meto1986]

Thanks everyone for your input, I decided to take the ro route, I don't have tds meter however I have Ca, GH and KH tests. What are the values I should aim for to get to 150/250tds, if it can be worked out this way?!
My GH is 8 and KH is 6. I am planing to go down to 6 and 4.
I've been using the softer water for a week and I no2 I have much more bba 🙁 not sure why.
I would appreceiate an advice on the flow of my tank!
I have roma 125 with 307 filter. Inlet at the bottom outlet 5 cm under the surface.
Both on one corner and the outlet is pointing to the opposite corner (diagonal).
Does this setup sound okay? I have a spray bar which can go along the length of the tank, but I don't like to have black bar going across the whole tank.

 

[keef321]

I have myriophyllum Guyana which seems growing very slowly, just added it two weeks ago, hope it do well as yours.
Will read more about duckweed index and def give that a go.

Cheers,
Meto

I have just started to grow some Guyana in my latest scape, from in-vitro / tissue culture and it brought back memories from my previous beginnings. With tissue culture Guyana, I find that the delicate baby plants really struggle at first, with lots of melting, and I have had to re-plant the healthy tops (base has melted away). Also I find, you start to get a slightly different plant structure, when the baby plant has started to adapt, for me this is a thinner bottom to the plant (old baby growth), and the top of the plant a more wider and healthier plant, this is was I re-plant. Once you get past this stage, and have healthy tops / or adapted plants, then it starts to grow fast.

So in my expereince, tissue culture Guyana melts a lot at first and needs to transform into a healthy form, before you have success.

 

[meto1986]

I have just started to grow some Guyana in my latest scape, from in-vitro / tissue culture and it brought back memories from my previous beginnings. With tissue culture Guyana, I find that the delicate baby plants really struggle at first, with lots of melting, and I have had to re-plant the healthy tops (base has melted away). Also I find, you start to get a slightly different plant structure, when the baby plant has started to adapt, for me this is a thinner bottom to the plant (old baby growth), and the top of the plant a more wider and healthier plant, this is was I re-plant. Once you get past this stage, and have healthy tops / or adapted plants, then it starts to grow fast.

So in my expereince, tissue culture Guyana melts a lot at first and needs to transform into a healthy form, before you have success.

I realised that I have K defecency and probably for a long time, after dosing more K and using ro water it is growing very well now!

However my rotala wallichii still turning black for some reason, I am about to give up on this plant : (

 

[keef321]

Are you using full RO water or mixed? I’m mixed 70% RO / 30% Tap and still need to dose DTPA iron, otherwise my plants suffer