Rotala / Amannia Bonsai (Melt)

[Paulo Soares]

So it is definitely not a Tropica problem.

Good Morning,
Let me clarify this cause it seems my words are not being well read or something is hapening and i´m not being to clear.

I never said or intend that this was a strictly Tropica issue and blame them only. That you can confirm by reading carefully this post and others. I said and i repeat here again what was my opinion in the past and for the future:

In the past i sugest we all should deliver our problems with this plant and also UG to the manufacturer (Tropica) so that they could studdy all diferent tank parameters and try to find a common cause to this melting issue. For instance a common point/element (?). What is hapenning cause it´s not normal so many people around the globe having this issue and they don´t do nothing or at least it seems they didn´t care
This is quite diferent of blaming themself and only.

Never the less as i said i finally reach them and talk with a plant specalist. I send them thoroughly all parameters of the tank, and experiments and results. And even Tropica at that time couldn´t come up with an understanding of what might be causing this Melt.

So not even them could find a answer. It remains to us. So i thought at that time. It´s a fight of each one for himself. And so i kept trying and trying and experiment.

Now talking about the plant:
I finally got Amannia/Rotala in good shape in the tank.
What i´ve done diferent? Only Reduce my 8 KH and 10 Gh to 3 KH and 3 GH with osmosis water and reduce the flow.

In my penultimate attempt with allready 3 GH and 3 KH in the tank i plant Rotala Bonsai in various places in the tank and i notice that the part of the thank with less flow is where the plant didn´t melt.

So i bought a new 1/2 Grow and plant it in the back and front center of the tank and reduce the flow by taking off the PUMP inside the tank and she´s doing just fine and growing. Didn´t Melt and its allready prepared for the first cut and replantation.
All other plants are pretty well to. None claim about less water flow.

So the MYTH of having to much flow for distributing CO2 and other stuff come to ground...

Also:

As you know I and Diogo Reis were struggling for a couple of years with brown Algae and this melt issue with Ammania and UG.

At this moment since i reduce my GH and KH and reduce flow not only the melt issue is gone as the most important problem brown algae disappear as well.

So my conclusions of what is the cause of melting and brown algae can only be directed to water chemistry and not so much to water flow but if you do have it doesnt help also to have plants "dancing" in the tank of result from to much water flow.
Something in the tap water (could be a simple element) does arm the plants. And that can vary from country to country and even inside of each country from region to region as each one has is own tap water treatment from the station/lab treatment.

This is what i can conclude from all i´ve done. I also was helpfull in telling Tropica about this conclusions so that they might folllow as well and help other people if they intend to.

I was in straight relation with them pointing all experiments and results so that they could also follow .

i name this as colaboration between client and supplier. This is what we all should do instead of just only being in foruns.
We should sent all our problems to the supplier / manufacturer so that they can make a picture or be aware of the scenario of whats going on with products they sell. This is what i was proposing from the begining. Maybe i wasn´t so clear at all and make people think i was blaming Tropica of selling a deficient product. Wrong.. i maybe sometimes could be agressive in words cause of strugling for so long but ím not a "mental issue" for doing what some people try to instigate.

I only try to find answers and solutions as all you do when having problems.

Best regards to all and hope everyone can solve their melt problems.

Big Hug.

 

[alto]

I finally got Amannia/Rotala in good shape in the tank.
What i´ve done diferent? Only Reduce my 8 KH and 10 Gh to 3 KH and 3 GH with osmosis water and reduce the flow.

In my penultimate attempt with allready 3 GH and 3 KH in the tank i plant Rotala Bonsai in various places in the tank and i notice that the part of the thank with less flow is where the plant didn´t melt.

So i bought a new 1/2 Grow and plant it in the back and front center of the tank and reduce the flow by taking off the PUMP inside the tank and she´s doing just fine and growing. Didn´t Melt and its allready prepared for the first cut and replantation.
All other plants are pretty well to.

I think this is worth highlighting 🙂
- hope you don't mind

I admire your dedication & effort!

 

[Mick.Dk]

I will not engage in long discussions on "flow and turn-over" but personally I do not use very high flow or 10 x turn-over in my tanks. I do pay high attention to distribution, though.
And no; it's not the same thing !!!
- on a side note: check info about turnover from Tropica, be it in general or in actual www-tanks. You will not find any "10 x turnover" scenarios............

 

[pepedopolous]

Interesting...

I'm lucky enough to have soft water and I've grown Tropica 1-2-Grow! 'Rotala Bonsai' with no problems. I didn't fancy my chances at the time as the plants from the pot are so tiny and even George Farmer apparently has had issues with it melting. Of course, there's plenty other plants I can't grow though...

If Tropica don't advise high flow, I'll take this seriously. Recently, I've planted some in-vitro plants in my established aquarium and I turned off my Koralia to stop them uprooting. It's been 2 weeks now and I haven't noticed any ill effects from this. My Eheim 350T doesn't give me a 10* turnover (1050 lph for 125 litres) but it is very lightly filled with media. The Koralia is an additional 900 lph when on.

In various threads about flow, proponents of the 10* turnover rule say that it isn't just about distribution but also overcoming a 'boundary layer' on the surface of submerged leaves that makes it really hard for CO2 to dissolve across. Pure uninformed speculation but I wonder if this is something which may be true in a general sense but not in aquarium environments, especially where we use CO2 mist and not fully dissolved CO2. Perhaps with slightly gentler flow, CO2 bubbles are more likely to settle on the leaves and be absorbed directly???

Finally, I really think that for all plants, especially in-vitro, they have a shelf life and are affected by the different ways retailers keep them. I've seen them at my LFS perched centimeters from big T5 luminaires and I think aquaessentials have said they keep them in a (presumably dark) fridge. Not pointing out any particular retailer, but when you buy in-vitro plants you may have no idea how old they are and so the quality really varies.

P

 

[Andy Thurston]

Finally, I really think that for all plants, especially in-vitro, they have a shelf life and are affected by the different ways retailers keep them. I've seen them at my LFS perched centimeters from big T5 luminaires and I think aquaessentials have said they keep them in a (presumably dark) fridge. Not pointing out any particular retailer, but when you buy in-vitro plants you may have no idea how old they are and so the quality really varies

I agree and when you couple this with transport issues and the possibly of less than optimal tank conditions, it can be a recipe for disaster which would not be tropicas fault.

 

[zozo]

It's like with playing balls.. 🙂 it's never the ball's fault.
In our game it's never the plants fault, nor the nurseries.. It's our fault 😉 as long it is green a plant can survive and bounce back. If you're not able to manage that, you're simply doing (having) something wrong for this particular plant in that state.

 

[Paulo Soares]

It's like with playing balls.. 🙂 it's never the ball's fault.
In our game it's never the plants fault, nor the nurseries.. It's our fault 😉 as long it is green a plant can survive and bounce back. If you're not able to manage that, you're simply doing (having) something wrong for this particular plant in that state.

I agree. I dont think that MELT has anything to do about transportation or time being in the cup in the store or other. We can only assume something´s not right in the tank. Cause if you do certainly the plant will survive even in extremely damage conditions. I allready have received plants almost destroyed, and i simply put them in the tank in the maternity and after a couple of weeks they survive and are ready for planting.

Now in what comes to CO2 concerns i have my mind set for all i´ve experienced.
I really don´t need brute flow and in my today´s opinion it´s backwards. Too much flow has high implications in the tank, for instance revolving to much the substrate and you all know the consequences of this act by bringing to much amonia to the water column and other issues.

If you check any ADA or TGM and other kinds of assemblings you won´t see that kind of flow that is too much propagate in this forum.
For myself the truth is when i started in this hobby i bought weak equipment and of course this doesn´t help either for achieve good results (Co2 talking only).
I have tried 4 different diffusers (VIV, Aquaeden, Aquagro, Rhinoxx) and with all them i had to open the CO2 valve so much that i wasn´t even able to count the bubbles. And so in my ordinary inexperience i also introduce a pump to spread the bublles.. "so wonderful" i thought at the time.. couldn´t be more wrong i see today.
And even seeing bubbles everywhere and with my simple drop cheker pointing yellow i knew somethings not right. Deep in me i watched all that and think to myself: "Naaa this could no be right.. you don´t see this with Ada and Tmg and Pasquale or O. Knott assemblings and professional people.. "

Then i decide to invest and buy the Ada 40 mm Pollen Glass Beetle and also a double chamber DropCheker with a 30 PPM calibrated reference solution and a reagent solution.
And there you have..not only i had to reduce the incoming CO2 (turn off the valve) but also i figure that i didn´t need the pump anymore. So i took it off. Cause the CO2 really spreads around the tank with less flow.
The point is: As soon the CO2 pass through the Pollen Glass it is instantly dissolved in the water. And once it is no matter flow you have it is dissolved and unless is consumed is in the water! And then again even with few flow you´ll have it in all tank. Cause it is not possible to have stagnant water in a part of the tank. We may have parts having more flow then others but never in any way stagnant water so the Co2 will get there anyway.

Seing bubbles is a big mistake. More Bubbles are in my opinion a synptom of less instantly dissolved CO2 . The Less bubbles you see the more CO2 is being dissolved. And to achieve that you need good hardware.

I actually have less than a bubble for second in the drop, also almost 50% less flow than i used to have, and very very good levels of CO2.
I´m gonna put some photos i took a few weeks ago with my cell phone. Later at home i´ll put some more.

The drop in the moment i put it in the tank



The drop after an hour. Clearly in high and useless levels of CO2. At this moment i saw i had to reduce the incoming CO2.







Nymphoides Taywan was all brown in the leaves cause of brown algae (the one i refer before - You can see that in previous photos i put somewhere in this forum)

Now take a look at her 3 weeks after changing KH and GH and the flow.





This is the tank a few weeks ago. The Rotala Bonsai is in the middle of the tank beetween others in the front and in the back. Later i´ll try to take more pictures. But you can see her bettween the Hydrocotyle verticillata.



Finnally one last thing to think about: With less flow, good CO2 i saw this healthy growth but i didnt´ see the pearling effect. In the middle of the tank the Hydrocotyle Verticillata was gaining GSA in the upper leaves. As i did have good "Ei" i could not point GSA to a fert default or Co2. So then what? Less flow in that area? And why only the Hydrocotyle verticillata is getting GSA and Amannia Bonsai didn´t? They are exactly in the same spot. Good point isn´t that so? Different plant has different needs. This is what i immediately conclude.
But as i saw this topic

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/valley-of-colors.37002/

i decide to try a different angle.. lights. This friend has 234W..

So since last week i decide to turn on my last bulb. The tank is rruning now 160W lights from 4 T5 in this sequence from the front to the back : 6500 K + 4200 K+ 15.000 Colour Extreme + 6500 K.

And guess what.. i now not only see the pearling effect has returns but also some other effect in the Hydrocotyle verticillata that i can´t figure out what it is. Some sorth of "fighting" on tthe GSA. I see a effervescent effect on the plant a couple of hours after the lights turn on. That dark green colour of the GSA seems to be "effervescent". (?) like the boiling water (?)

I´m being carefull with this amount of light but for now it seems that according to my CO2 levels and other parameters in the tank all looks doing fine.

So this is my opinion based in my own experience.
Best regards